00:00:23 hmm, what happened to the "I have a contract written several years ago that says I own most of Facebook" case? 00:00:41 wut? 00:01:07 let's see... back when the current owner of Facebook was writing the application originally (in the days when it was thefacebook.com) 00:01:17 he was being funded by someone who wanted the website made 00:01:33 and the terms of the loan gave him a certain percentage of ownership in the website for every day it was late 00:01:42 and he was rather late 00:02:01 * ais523 searches Slashdot for the story 00:02:26 i vaguely recall seeing a headline that it was bullshit 00:03:23 http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/07/13/146207/Man-Claims-84-of-Facebook-Gets-Order-Blocking-Assets 00:03:31 as usual, the comments > the summary 00:04:11 "Under Paragraph 3 of the contract, the Seller and Purchaser agreed that for each day after January 1, 2004, the Purchaser would acquire an additional 1% interest in the business, per day, until the website was completed ... Upon information and belief, the website, thefacebook.com, was completed and operational on February 4th, 2004." 00:05:33 ais523, I dare you to facilitate a violation of the statement telling you not to facilitate or encourage any violations of the statement 00:05:33 that's 34, not 84? 00:05:45 he got another 50% due to a different part of the contract 00:05:48 ah 00:06:02 Actually, you kind of did, merely by virtue of being here 00:06:13 You facilitated my violation! 00:06:19 good thing I don't have a Facebook account then 00:06:25 >.> I do 00:06:55 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:07:10 alise, want to watch me suffer at Xom's hands? 00:07:11 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:07:24 Sgeo: not really 00:08:03 ooh, the section 2 license that they can do anything with your stuff? 00:08:14 apparently, that's only limited to "in connection with Facebook" if you happen to be German 00:08:40 also, 17.1 and 17.2 are defined in terms of each other 00:09:07 ais523: German, or residing in Germany? 00:09:22 German, according to the contract 00:09:29 hmm, so if you're a German American, or whatever 00:09:31 ais523: brilliant 00:09:40 then the thing is still under the jurisdiction of German courts 00:09:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:09:48 assuming it's enforceable at all, and it probably isn't 00:10:58 also, it contradicts itself 00:11:05 stating that any amendment must be signed by them 00:11:13 yet it's been amended, and hasn't actually been signed 00:11:41 heh, I love the provision for democracy 00:12:20 they can change the agreement, but it can be overriden by a vote - but the quorum is 30% of all Facebook users 00:12:26 what's the chance that /that/ quorum will ever be reached? 00:12:51 also, "We can make changes for legal or administrative reasons, or to correct an inaccurate statement, upon notice without opportunity to comment." 00:14:34 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:18:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:18:55 -!- augur has joined. 00:29:51 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:36:36 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:41:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:43:21 "Country: Space" -- film infobox on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apogee_of_Fear 00:45:32 It's not acceptable to sit in and just observe a course you haven't payed for, is it? 00:46:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:46:43 -!- augur has joined. 00:51:12 Sgeo: I'd ... assume not ... 00:59:18 I'd assume it was acceptable 00:59:25 paying for it is silly 00:59:55 * olsner shouldn't have gotten the burger with pepper on it 01:00:18 (it delays my sleep by taking more time to eat) 01:05:28 olsner: this is america their universities are weird 01:05:38 who knows what their etiquette is 01:07:16 alise: yeah, I dunno, it's probably silly 01:10:41 ("yeah" there was a response to the first line, the rest applies as a response to the statement about etiquette) 01:11:20 All I know is that comex retweeted some thing about some freshman sitting in on a graduate course 01:11:54 hah 01:12:31 students 01:13:34 Sgeo: you only read comex's tweets because he's internet famous :) 01:14:03 comex's tweets are how I found out he's internet famous 01:14:21 who's the internet and why is he famous? 01:15:42 olsner: I am totally confused by your question. 01:16:22 alise: the point did not escape you! I am delighted 01:16:47 THE ESCAPING of the POINT 01:16:59 a novel by O.L.S. Ner 01:17:22 Mr Ner, how did it come to be? the escaping? 01:17:44 well, at first it wasn't... then (at a later point, this was) it was 01:18:23 yes, I think that may be the whole of it 01:19:32 As Tab sat bored in orbit, a beep sounded. A transmission. He let it through, and crackled sound streamed out of the speakers. "There isn't much--" the sound cut out for a second -- "--I need--has escaped--I repeat:--the point has--" The static built up to a point, and the transmission ended. Tab opened a channel to the base on Earth. "Command," he said, "I think we may have a problem." 01:19:46 This could totally work. 01:20:02 olsner: all we need to do is blend your lines and my lines 01:20:07 and we will have the greatest bad novel of all time 01:20:37 it would be bad, but it would be the greatest of the bads - the least bad if you might 01:20:56 comex? internet famous? 01:21:15 olsner: it would be an EFFORTLESS BLENDING OF GENRES, that of the English, scholarly professor Mr. Ner, and the space-faring, risk-taking Captain Tab. 01:21:23 nooga: yeah; he's behind the latest iPhone jailbreak that's all the rage. 01:21:27 jailbreakme.com and all that. 01:21:33 wtf?! 01:21:40 Mr Ner and Captain Tab - yes this does fill me with confidence 01:21:48 nooga: why wtf 01:21:53 it does! 01:22:06 i couldn't tell that from his appearances on the # 01:22:14 however, gz 01:22:19 nooga: what 01:22:38 He appeared in a cloud; he appeared in a hallway 01:22:46 olsner: at the start of the novel, it's two separate narratives, Mr. Ner and Captain Nab changing each chapter, but then they CONVERGE. 01:22:48 how literary is that? 01:23:14 well, being a novel I would say TOTALLY literary 01:23:25 I mean COMPLETELY 01:23:39 olsner: we should also have flashback chapters 01:23:45 like to Mr. Ner's formative moments as a child prodigy 01:23:49 and Captain Nab's troubled childhood 01:23:56 yes yes 01:24:43 the (very late) reveal of exactly _what_ has escaped will of course be horribly cliched 01:24:58 nonono, it is never revealed 01:25:01 that is the thing 01:25:03 it is merely the Point 01:25:15 I think we already covered what escaped, it is the point that did 01:25:23 oh. i was thinking the opposite. 01:25:26 thus allowing us to demonstrate, in a parodic yet sincere fashion, what happens to humans in the face of the unknown, and the tropes we all must ultimately succumb to 01:25:34 "but what's the point!?" you may ask 01:25:37 of course, the sequel reveals what the Point is immediately. 01:25:42 (as in, it would be something singularly underwhelming) 01:25:43 well... that shall eventually be apparent 01:26:03 an underwhelming singularity, that's the point 01:26:25 alise: what what? 01:26:40 * olsner suspects oerjan to be overwhelmingly underwhelmed 01:26:43 *expects 01:27:12 olsner: full names: Oliver Lance Sterling Ner and Jack Tab 01:27:35 ah, "Lance" is a pretty good name, well done 01:27:54 it's pretty good, but not sterling 01:28:03 Oswald Eric Robertson Jan ? 01:28:18 nooga: yes, he's the Prime Minister 01:28:23 indeed only sterling is sterling 01:29:00 nooga: although let's just go with Oswald Robertson Jan and leave the E out, otherwise we'll have to come with a hideous explanation for the proliferation of middle names 01:29:13 it's easy enough to just brush away in the case of Oliver, since he's all posh-like :p 01:29:26 olsner: you seem unfamiliar with the alternate meaning 01:29:50 oerjan: seemingly, I may seem so 01:29:52 eric is a bit boring 01:30:04 Eric Idle is not 01:30:50 My ear still hurts 01:31:03 i generally ascribe to the principle that the simplest name should be first, anyhow, otherwise it sounds stilted 01:31:05 Sgeo: cut it off before it spreads! 01:31:17 oerjan: yes, well, we can't really change Ner 01:31:27 otherwise the shoddy olsner-based foundation of all of this crap falls apart 01:31:29 17:22 <+cheesworshiper> pikhq: My CPU is idling at 99 degrees celsius. 01:31:37 Odd Even Robertson Jan 01:31:39 Jack Tab is clearly an excellent name for a rugged American spaceship captain though 01:31:43 That is a *very* forboding thing to have as a last message before pinging out. 01:31:43 pikhq: wow. 01:31:43 nice norwegian names 01:31:47 haha 01:31:52 oerjan: odd and even are nice norwegian names 01:32:02 Guttorm 01:32:02 :D 01:32:27 "THE ESCAPING of the POINT" is a very good high-brow sci-fi title though, it could get us critical acclaim no matter what the contents of the book 01:32:27 nooga: we don't have a G in the acronym 01:32:44 alise: you're assuming they won't actually read the book? 01:32:53 olsner: it's sci-fi. of course they won't 01:33:01 oerjan: but it's a norwegian name, right? 01:33:06 nooga: sure 01:33:13 hah, right... only the stupid customers do :P 01:33:14 Guttorm says bæsj 01:33:29 all the time 01:33:29 drittsnakk 01:33:43 olsner: oh no, you too? 01:33:52 nooga: nope, I just fake it 01:33:59 oof 01:34:01 olsner: well sci-fi hasn't got the greatest literary reputation ;) 01:34:12 *:) 01:34:20 We have iStates now 01:34:26 Southern iCalifornia 01:34:27 alise: Except for when the scifi in question has a good literary reputation. 01:34:32 Then, they argue it can't be science fiction. 01:34:50 of course not, if it's good it's literature and not scifi 01:35:00 it's actually hard to come up with sci-fi authors that have escaped the toilet 01:35:09 [i]California is now officially owned by Apple 01:35:30 Clearly "literature" only applies to things that are approved by 80 year old English majors! 01:35:50 I've recently read some extremely awesome sci-fi 01:35:54 ("I have been a soreheaded occupant of a file drawer labeled 'science fiction' ever since [publishing 'Player Piano'], and I would like out, particularly since so many serious critics regularly mistake the drawer for a urinal." --Vonnegut) 01:36:09 Sgeo: maybe we could have them take iRan and iSrael next 01:36:12 but it was from Polish author, probably it was even translated to english 01:36:23 oh, but vonnegut makes literature rather than scifi, right? 01:36:28 nooga: Stanisław Lem by any chance? :P 01:36:32 olsner: That's the claim. 01:36:43 yes, I suppose Vonnegut managed to escape the urinal eventually 01:36:56 I mean he *actually* doesn't deserve the scifi gutter, does he? 01:37:09 of course he doesn't 01:37:12 many sci-fi authors don't 01:37:22 arguably none of them do 01:37:28 Oh, there's a few. 01:37:37 Their work is not very popular. 01:37:43 bah! *arguably* anything, of course, since anything can be argued 01:37:43 it's a relic from the days of Amazing Stories!!! Robots from OUTER SPACE abduct BEAUTIFUL BARELY-CLAD WOMEN as HOSTAGES!!! 01:37:49 ISSUE #43! 01:38:01 omg they are BARELY-CLAD 01:38:06 BARELY EVEN CLAD AT ALL 01:38:09 alise: no, his successor 01:38:10 http://www.culture.pl/en/culture/artykuly/dz_dukaj_czarne_oceany 01:38:11 (with the exception of extended universe stuff. That's almost universally dreck, and somehow popular.) 01:38:22 How can you succeed another person XD 01:38:23 this description is not accurate 01:38:29 the book is really good as for SF 01:38:37 alise: Amazing Stories actually had some good stuff in it back in the day. 01:38:48 herp derp, time to sleep methinks 01:38:48 i mean really 01:38:51 pikhq: hmm, yeah, amazing stories was actually a real one 01:38:55 i was trying to come up with a name that sounded like it 01:38:59 but it's so hard, they all had stupid names like that 01:39:19 Fantastic Voyage^HStories 01:39:22 alien science 01:39:31 Yeah; pulp magazines have some of the stupidest names. 01:39:33 pikhq: Star Trek novels are like badly-coded nano-machines 01:39:43 useless and replicating at a ridiculous rate 01:39:59 alise: oh, I think that counts as making a funny 01:40:09 alise, hey, there's a book with fan-submitted stores and there were some that I liked! 01:40:11 olsner: have i not been making funnies? 01:40:18 Sgeo: stfu 01:40:29 ... 01:40:31 No 01:40:47 alise: this observation has no relation to previous events 01:40:49 darn 01:40:55 olsner: you're fun when you don't sleep; don't 01:41:06 alise: thanks :D 01:41:10 btw, alise, do you know some books by Lem? 01:41:26 anyway, I'm woefully low on caffeinated beverages with dubious additives 01:41:27 nooga: I know of them, certainly; I want to read Solaris sometime. 01:41:31 There was one story, Of Cabbages and Kings 01:41:31 ah 01:41:48 try Dukaj, if his works were translated 01:41:50 this does not bode well for the morn 01:41:56 No 01:41:58 alise: BTW, Amazing Stories wasn't merely "a real one". It was the first pulp magazine devoted to science fiction. 01:42:07 he is called the recent Lem 01:42:09 pikhq: yeah i know 01:42:20 http://www.adherents.com/lit/bk_Thatcher.html#Cabbages 01:42:27 it's just, you know 01:42:28 the name is crap 01:43:08 It is. 01:43:11 "pulp" is fun, it supposedly refers to the paper this particular quality of magazine was printed on... but I'm not quite sure what quality that is... I mean, all paper is pulp at some stage is it not? 01:43:38 everything means nothing 01:44:15 I read "pulp" as "for popular consumption" 01:44:19 For some reason 01:44:41 alise: http://www.dukaj.pl/English/ReadingRoom/BlackOceans 01:44:47 a mere fragment 01:45:00 olsner: please don't sleep this is awesome 01:45:07 "The name pulp comes from the cheap wood pulp paper on which the magazines were printed." 01:45:14 "His first codename was WINNIE_THE_POOH" gahahahaha 01:45:20 olsner: Yeah, but the paper they used had fairly minimal processing. It pretty much amounted to sticking wood pulp in a frame and letting it dry. 01:45:29 "He liked the poetry of English metaphysicians" 01:45:34 nooga: this is utterly bizarre 01:45:45 ;] 01:45:48 hmm, well, isn't that what normal paper "pretty much" amounts to? 01:46:02 nooga: that first paragraph made absolutely no sense 01:46:20 the book is about DARPA, corporations, neuromonads and more 01:46:21 it's, uh, not particularly good writing unless it has larger context to explain it 01:46:24 it's just random words 01:46:39 it makes sense only if you're reading the whole 01:46:42 book 01:46:51 this fragmet is about some stupid computer 01:46:55 olsner: With some chemical processes to get a finer paper out of it... 01:46:57 alise: yes, it is quite random, but if you let it make sense it will 01:47:12 *** 01:47:17 not really relevant 01:47:20 to the whole story 01:47:21 "The Point is approaching... Mach 7..." 01:47:35 Bleaching, for instance... 01:47:38 Command's calls of impending destruction did nothing to ease Tab's spirits. 01:47:53 alise: oh! so at this point, it is not already established that the point has escaped? 01:48:11 He clenched his teeth, sat straight in his seat, closed his eyes, bit his lip... and aimed the ship's weapons at itself. 01:48:20 olsner: it has escaped already ... but now it approaches Tab 01:48:35 right, Tab's Predicament 01:49:14 An infinitesimal moment passed; impossible to speak about, as though it occurred on the human scale of things, Tab did not think a single thought in its passing. And then, he fired. 01:49:24 derp 01:49:38 herp nooga derp 01:49:39 "impossible to speak about" XD 01:50:07 He was expecting eternal nothingness so greatly that for a second or two he didn't bother to think, and he was just about ready to conclude that he was dead when he felt the ship around him. He opened his eyes. Somehow, the shots had missed the ship entirely. He ran a diagnostic. 01:50:14 oerjan: CONTRADICTIONS ARE LITERARY 01:50:37 *** 01:50:39 OVER TO MR. NER 01:50:40 LITERALS ARE CONTRACTED DICTION 01:51:09 "If I'm going to consult with you I'd at least like tea to be delivered on a *semi*-regular basis, dammit." 01:51:17 Oliver was not in a terribly good mood. 01:51:32 "Diagnostics show nothing." Nothing!? Well, obviously the ship is still there, the shots had missed it. 01:51:36 olsner: HEY 01:51:38 THIS IS A MR. NER CHAPTER 01:51:42 GET YOUR FILTHY TAB MATERIAL OUT OF IT 01:52:16 TAB MATERIAL!? 01:53:11 seriously, I don't have much to contribute right here... it doesn't work if you expect it of me 01:53:27 :P 01:53:40 who is mr ner anyway? 01:53:48 A lieutenant -- or, as Oliver would have had him called, leftenant -- approached Oliver. "Sir, Captain Tab just fired a shot at the Excellence itself in a desperate attempt to destroy the Point. But he just communicated with us a second ago; the ship is still there. No sign of the Point." 01:53:59 olsner: a professor of ... astrophysics or something 01:54:09 scholarly, very English. lives in a very old, grand house. 01:54:24 No sign? No point? Obviously this is victory for Tab. 01:54:28 irritable. likes tea. genius. helping the US space agency at this point for no apparent reason 01:55:21 "Aha," said Tab, "but a sign would point to the point, and since there is no sign, there must be no point, as the point that would be there -- that is, the sign -- would point to the point; and if the point were pointed to, Tab would know where it is. Since he doesn't, the point must obviously be gone." 01:55:33 "Sir..." said the baffled lieutenant. 01:55:34 erm 01:55:39 *Tab -> Oliver 01:55:50 "Sorry, sorry," said Oliver. "Has he run a diagnostic?" 01:55:56 "He's doing so as we speak." 01:56:09 *** 01:56:21 Tab drummed his fingers as the diagnostic ran. 01:56:39 The computer beeped. "Diagnostic complete", read the screen in front of him. 01:56:47 -!- calamari has joined. 01:56:56 Tab forwarded it to Command, and waited for the analysts to respond. 01:56:58 -!- calamari has left (?). 01:57:32 What seemed to Tab like an eternity of uncertainty passed, and eventually a response echoed out from the communications system. 01:57:37 A diagnostic? How quaint. Did you expect the Diagnostic to simply point out the Point? 01:57:41 "The shots definitely fired. But the Point intercepted them." 01:57:52 "Have I destroyed it?" 01:58:00 "No. The shots did no damage." 01:58:03 *** 01:58:08 Intercepted the Point? But would there then not be a Sign? 01:58:32 i sincerely doubt the shots were intercepted. that would require them getting to the point, after all. 01:58:35 i need a name for a US general now 01:58:42 surname 01:59:05 MacFord 01:59:09 how about... Attenbauer? 01:59:41 great 02:00:11 Oliver burst into the quiet office of General Attenbauer. "What the hell are you doing, bursting into my office like this?" the general asked, although it was more like an interrogating demand. 02:00:24 and if there is one thing we can assume here, it's that nothing can get to the point. 02:00:31 "Sir -- forgive me -- I have reason to believe that the Point is sentient." 02:00:47 "Sentient?" said Attenbauer. "You mean it can think?" 02:00:53 oerjan: we are quite close to the point, in fact the Point has already been intercepted 02:01:01 (or so Command says) 02:01:05 "Yes; and act upon those thoughts, too. I think it put itself in the way of the shots to keep Tab alive." 02:01:38 hm that's a good point 02:01:40 "Then... it is either benevolent, or acting according to some greater plan that involves Tab in some way. But why do you believe this? The Point's actions have appeared completely random up until now." 02:02:23 "Because the ship's tracking of the Point shows erratic movement patterns that are entirely consistent with those of a being experiencing fear." 02:02:28 *** 02:04:37 http://fcuk.it/ O_o 02:06:26 "Tab, look at it this way. It's afraid of you - you should have tea with it." 02:09:01 "Tea with a Point? What does that even mean!?" thought Tab. He nodded as if the statement was both profound and obvious - it probably was to Oliver. 02:09:09 i think the point is to prevent tab completing his mission 02:09:18 that may well be why it is 02:10:10 http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html Articles like this make me want to learn Mandarin. 02:10:16 *Just so I have room to mock people*. 02:10:34 (okay, so I cheat, because I can *already* comprehend (simple) written Chinese. But still.) 02:11:07 alise: and that shall be it for now - for now I shall sleep 02:11:24 olsner: i think i may just cut out all your parts 02:11:30 and therefore cease all the profits 02:11:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:11:46 -!- augur has joined. 02:15:19 "Very few Americans, on the other hand, ever learn to produce a natural calligraphic hand in Chinese that resembles anything but that of an awkward Chinese third-grader." 02:15:23 I MOCK THAT! 02:15:44 pikhq: is there anything wrong with that article? 02:16:13 alise: Factually? Not a hell of a lot. 02:16:22 alise: Opinion-wise? So very very much. 02:16:35 "Chinese is hard" seems like a reasonable opinion. 02:16:59 Except that he then goes on to say that it's impossibly hard and that it takes years and years just to learn all the characters. 02:17:09 Which is... Comical. 02:18:10 He also seems to labor under the impression that English's orthography is easy. 02:18:26 (it's one of the most complex.) 02:18:35 lojban solves all problems 02:18:47 Except getting laid. 02:19:45 (also: Japanese's orthography is, in fact, harder than Chinese.) 02:19:48 chinese doesn't solve that problem either :P 02:19:58 [[However, in mašq and those styles of kufic writing which lack consonant pointing, the ambiguities are more serious, for here different roots are written the same. ﯨطر could represent the root nẓr 'see' as above, but also nṭr 'protect', bṭr 'pride', bẓr 'clitoris' or 'with flint', as well as several inflections and derivations of each of these root words.]] 02:19:58 alise: Does if you're gay. 02:20:17 Or female! 02:20:27 pikhq: Yes... because men like nothing more than Chinese. 02:20:39 alise: No, the thing is, there's a gender disparity in China. 02:20:50 Significantly more men than women. 02:21:08 Well, with Lojban you could also seduce someone from Lojbaia. 02:21:09 Lojbania? 02:21:11 Lojbia? 02:21:23 Lojbanistan. 02:21:32 Lojbanistania. 02:22:29 lol @ 嚔 02:22:31 worst character ever 02:23:04 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:24:03 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:24:04 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 02:24:04 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:24:56 What, it's just 口 + 土 + (... the 家 radical without the dot; can't type it easily) + 田 + 足 02:24:59 GRR 02:25:35 I was looking up a couple of characters because they don't have Japanese readings (so I can't just type them) 02:25:57 Oh, wait, that's just an obnoxiously archaic reading. Anyways. 02:26:20 口 + 土 + + 田 + 足 02:26:25 STOP DOING THAT IRSSI 02:26:29 PASTING != ENTER 02:28:41 口 + 土 + 冖 + 田 + 厶 + 疋 02:28:43 There. 02:28:46 That's all. 02:28:56 Two archaicisms and something that's not a character. Curses. 02:29:40 alise: Anyways. Lojbanistania Minshushugi Gijin Minkyouwakoku. 02:29:50 pikhq: wat 02:30:00 alise: The Democratic People's Republic of Lojbanistania. 02:30:16 ah 02:33:41 This article is at least accurate in that romanisation for Chinese languages sucks majorly. 02:34:21 The Roman alphabet is just lacking in good ways of representing phonemes. 02:35:03 (arguably, romanisation for Anglo-Frisian languages also sucks majorly, and for the same reason...) 02:36:02 "ut where the real difficulty comes in is when you start to really use Chinese to express yourself. You suddenly find yourself straitjacketed -- when you say the sentence with the intonation that feels natural, the tones come out all wrong." 02:36:34 How do I know he's ignorant? Because this happens with a *lot* of languages! English's stress patterns sound freaking bizarre in *most* languages! 02:41:42 amaximaximaximainineoaerion 02:44:27 * Sgeo once again growls at broken power cables 02:44:35 My computer will probably hibernate soon 02:44:40 Because it's not getting power 02:44:50 Because cables that enter my possession break uinstantly 02:45:11 * Sgeo cries 02:47:56 Well, it spontaneously decided to start charging again 02:55:50 a hole in tpace and sime 02:56:30 place and slime! 02:57:41 the relative playslime 03:11:09 Playground of Jiyva 03:24:00 PLACE and SLIME, the critically-acclaimed sequel to THE ESCAPING of the POINT 03:24:51 this reminded me of a debate on Slashdot 03:25:14 where they were trying to discuss a programming language that had no legal issues at all, in practice or theory, and additionally that nobody would try to sue you for using 03:25:25 in the end, they settled on Common Lisp, on the basis that nobody cares about it 03:28:02 -!- cheater99 has joined. 03:28:38 ais523: heh 03:28:53 Python has legal issues? 03:29:02 every damn language has legal issues in the US 03:29:07 there is a software parent for everything 03:29:12 ais523: i'm sure there's a patent on roman numerals :P 03:29:19 probably multiple 03:29:35 CLC could probably patent CLC-INTERCAL style roman numerals right now as a design patent 03:29:53 other than the fact he's Scottish and thus lives in a marginally saner patent environment than the US 03:30:29 * Sgeo wonders if PSOX is patentable 03:30:37 Or, well, the idea of .. what PSOX is 03:31:17 If linked lists can be patented, so can PSOX. 03:31:35 ......linked lists are patented?! 03:31:39 Yes. 03:32:05 Most every non-trivial program will violate a software patent. Just give up on programming legally. 03:33:13 * Sgeo goes to patent "Hello, World!" 03:33:20 prior art... 03:33:38 actually, arguably Bilski means software patents aren't valid in the US any more, at least some of them 03:33:39 "Hello, World!!!" 03:34:03 ais523: Yeah... 03:34:13 The US is still a crazy legal environment though. 03:34:14 Bilski? 03:34:17 the courts even managed to reject some 03:34:25 Sgeo: you could try following the Supreme Court more 03:34:30 Even if you *are* perfectly legal, you can probably be sued into bankruptcy. 03:34:37 In re Bilski is the normal abbrevation 03:34:55 As defending yourself in court is expensive. 03:35:08 * alise installs Konversation to briefly review KDE 4's general usability 03:35:21 ais523: CLC is Scottish? cool 03:35:29 To the point of being effectively impossible if your opponent is a large corporation. 03:35:30 I will henceforth refer to him as Scotty. 03:35:35 I don't know for certain, but there's very strong circumstantial evidence 03:35:59 Sgeo: you could try following the Supreme Court more ;; haha 03:36:13 why haha? 03:36:15 ais523: Do his bytes give off a certain hint of a Scottish accent? 03:36:29 alise: CLC-INTERCAL's documentation describes it as a Scottish compiler 03:36:36 also, just the amusingness of a Brit telling a random person to follow Supreme Court proceedings, as if that were a perfectly normal thing to do 03:36:48 ais523: It's INTERCAL. Shouldn't that be evidence /against/ CLC being Scottish? 03:37:20 hmm, I don't know 03:37:22 So everything in the documentation is Gospel lies? 03:37:30 he'd have had to have learnt Scottish Gaelic in order to improve the ruse 03:37:49 [ehird@dinky ~]$ kde4-config 03:37:49 [ehird@dinky ~]$ 03:37:52 alise: Isn't Sgeo... American? 03:37:57 pikhq: Yes. 03:38:30 alise: how is KDE4, atm? 03:38:30 ais523: as opposed to Mexican Gaelic? 03:38:38 as opposed to Irish Gaelic 03:38:44 well, yes, that would be reasonable 03:38:45 KDE 4 is yet to be evaluated. 03:38:47 alise: Ah; misparsed your statement. 03:38:51 alise: Anyways. 03:38:55 Kind of hard to do so in GNOME. 03:39:07 I should probably install Konqueror instead. 03:39:11 FUCKING FUCK FUCK. I know this is minorly old news but AARGH 03:39:23 There's fucking segregated proms in the US still. 03:39:50 Fuck the south. Should've let them suceed. 03:39:50 -!- kalise has joined. 03:39:54 Erm. Secede. 03:39:56 it seems just like older KDE 4s to me 03:40:02 which is probably not a good thing 03:40:15 GNOME works, but it's just plain boring :-D 03:40:27 I don't run Linux because I want things to actually /work/ 03:40:57 ais523: is there a reason you won't just adopt the obvious IRC naming convention and say "'In re Bilski'"? 03:41:00 that is, "In re Bilski" 03:41:40 to me, that's almost as grammatically incorrect as leaving off accents 03:41:54 ais523: would you object to "Moby Dick"? 03:42:02 after all, that would normally be set as \emph{Moby Dick} 03:42:12 but the quotes suffice in ASCII 03:42:15 for book names, it's less clear 03:42:18 also, Wikipedia uses ''...'' for italics 03:42:21 but quotes make it look like a subtitle 03:42:24 lending more credence to it, I suppose 03:42:24 and those are doublesinglequotes 03:42:29 yes, but still 03:42:36 ais523: ok, what about 'In re Bilski'? 03:42:39 I imagine most IRCers would think "''Moby Dick''" would be crazy 03:42:49 then it looks like a trendy middle name 03:42:56 along the lines of Elliot 'alise' Hird 03:43:11 two ts, god dammit 03:43:21 err, OK 03:43:29 for some reason I'd remembered it as being specifically 1 03:43:30 I swear, if my life was a sitcom, the spelling of my name would be the reliable comic foil. 03:43:35 I knew you got annoyed whenever people got it wrong 03:43:38 heh 03:43:51 You try spending your formative years having your name spelled wrong in increasingly creative ways :) 03:43:51 but I'd remembered "Elliott normally has two t's", probably because of you 03:43:53 and so changed it 03:44:04 "Elliot" is the most common variation of the name, I think. 03:44:16 it is what Wikipedia lists the name under 03:45:15 I once wrote a card to a girl. I remembered seeing her name on a piece of paper, but when I asked my mom, she said the name would be spelled differently from what I thought I saw 03:45:40 So I wrote down the spelling that she said, which turned out to be wrong 03:46:04 kalise: Imagine having a last name that only people from Britain can spell or pronounce. :P 03:46:21 Well, in your case it wouldn't come up much. But here... urgh. 03:46:29 pikhq: Americans have trouble pronouncing "Hird", I think. 03:46:32 pikhq, I think I'll call you Sauce 03:46:41 kalise: Anything like "herd"? 03:46:43 Or rather, they simply have no idea how to go about pronouncing it, and definitely don't conclude it should be pronounced as a Brit would pronounce "herd". 03:46:47 pikhq: British "herd". 03:46:58 How's that different from heard? 03:46:58 I'd pronounce "hird" and "herd" the same way... 03:47:03 and "heard" for that matter 03:47:07 ais523: Yes, but speakers of other dialects may not. 03:47:24 and "hurd" 03:47:28 kalise: So, same as "heard" and "herd" and "hurd"... 03:47:42 For some reason, people sometimes say "Set" or sometimes a name only relate to mine in that there's one syllible 03:47:58 Konqueror gives me the same slightly-upset, mostly confused feeling as always 03:48:12 it's quite upsetting 03:48:22 kalise: Imagine an ignorant American doing "Worcester". 03:48:31 -!- kwertii has joined. 03:48:33 pikhq: War cester. 03:48:38 kalise: War Chester. 03:48:44 Seriously? 03:48:46 Yes. 03:48:51 THEY INSERT A FUCKING H 03:48:53 Americans are more retarded than I thought. 03:48:58 Once, I needed a late pass from some school librarian, and said my name "Gold" 03:49:10 I've also heard "War Kester". 03:49:16 I've actually never heard War Cester. 03:49:16 your name isn't "Sgeo"? 03:49:22 She asked "man?". I was thoroughly confused by this, and said yes, assuming she was asking if I was a man 03:49:28 ais523: Seth Gold Seth Gold Seth Gold Seth Gold 03:49:32 Turns out, she was asking if I meant "Goldman" 03:49:40 [Sgeo's father has a heart attack] 03:49:43 And I'm absolutely astonished when someone pronounces it right. 03:49:54 "Worcester" is pronounced something like "wooster" but with a shorter oo 03:49:57 pikhq: Wusster. Not hard. 03:50:05 ais523: Very well aware. 03:50:14 "Leicester" is another good one for confusing foreigners 03:50:19 kalise: Yes, but nobody does it right. 03:50:26 kalise, I don't think you know my middle name 03:50:29 ais523: Lester? 03:50:31 Sgeo: Seth Sgeo Gold 03:50:39 does anyone know what KDE component contains the control centre? 03:51:11 kalise: Well, nobody except people from Massachusetts or Britan. 03:51:13 yay, I coerced Epiphany into following my evil hintingless issues 03:51:16 pikhq: *Britain 03:51:21 Yes, that. 03:51:28 kalise, your nick reminds me of a Siner's nick 03:51:49 Sgeo: True. I was wondering why it seemed familiar to me. 03:52:04 All I remember about kaelis is that (s)he hated Gregor for some unrevealed, probably-stupid reason. 03:52:18 (Actually, (s)he is probably the safest pronoun for every single member of Sine.) 03:54:44 Gregor is still a Siner, fwiw 03:54:57 Okay. 03:55:00 Although he recently tried to do a poll asking if he should leave 03:55:12 How attention whorey. 03:55:41 I think people were angry at him for some reason or another 03:56:03 what is Sine? 03:56:15 ais523: a dump. 03:56:35 My experience with Siners is that they're a bunch of whiney, inconsistent, boring... entities. So it is. 03:56:50 let me rephrase that: what is it meant to be? 03:56:54 ais523: An IRC network. 03:57:00 An "omg private" IRC network. 03:57:10 irc.aftran.com, port 9999, I believe. 03:57:22 Maybe not; aftran.com appears to be dead. 03:57:25 repent, siners 03:57:34 repnt 03:59:26 * Sgeo glowers at alise 03:59:38 For revealing the secret? 03:59:52 Tee hee. I'm disrupting the sanctity of the Prolonged, Internet-Based Grumble. 04:00:08 I think certain persons would at least prefer if you used the IP address instead, although I may be mistaken 04:00:34 How can anyone even care about that? 04:00:47 The same way I might care if I set up sethgold.net 04:00:51 Or sethgold.name 04:01:03 Ah, yes. Because "Aftran" is someone's real name. 04:08:21 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:16:44 d-a- 04:19:19 -r-t 04:19:42 * oerjan is tellypathetic 04:19:57 -ic-na 04:20:13 Google will now know exactly where I am during school hours :/ 04:20:26 now you are just m--s--g with me 04:20:59 fa-r-t- 04:21:39 * oerjan swats kalise -----### 04:21:44 DON'T CALL ME THAT 04:40:57 oh well, it had to be done eventually: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220080270152%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20080270152&RS=DN/20080270152 04:41:27 a patent application on the process of suing somebody for damages over a patent 04:41:52 ais523: Not yet a patent though. 04:42:02 I can't tell from that page whether it was granted or not 04:42:40 It would have a patent number if it were. 04:42:54 It seems to have not been summarily rejected. 04:42:58 Which is itself troublesome. 04:43:22 ais523: I am currently conducting some sort of review of KDE SC 4.5. 04:43:38 ("Software Collection", the fashionable new name for what we used to call KDE.) 04:43:56 BRB 04:44:03 Also, Google owns my soul 04:44:30 ais523: Konqueror uses smooth scrolling by default, which is insanely frustrating. 04:44:53 Smooth scrolling must die. 04:44:54 if smooth scrolling is fast enough, it's OK I suppose 04:45:14 is it the sort where you move the mouse wheel and half a second later the page finishes scrolling? 04:45:18 that's an abomination 04:45:34 ais523: yes 04:45:43 except when it mysteriously gives up 04:45:58 and just scrolls normally 04:45:59 like right now 04:46:02 brb 04:46:03 -!- kalise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:46:29 -!- kalise has joined. 04:46:36 "Starting Akonadi server..." 04:46:38 Please don't. 04:46:43 ugh Akonadi 04:46:53 among other things, it crashed and claimed to have deleted all my IRC logs 04:47:03 which was particularly ironic given that I eventually found them 04:47:38 Ssh, the writers of Star Trek: Voyager will hear you! 04:47:50 why does that matter? 04:47:55 "Mwahaha! I have killed your entire crew!" "Noooo! But why are they standing right next to me on the bridge?" 04:48:01 They can produce bad ideas from anything. 04:48:02 oh 04:48:04 "They're figments of your imagination!" "NOOOOOOO! You win!" 04:48:10 They're even talented at it. 04:48:26 pikhq: it would probably be a good idea if nobody ever talked, ever, just in case they heard 04:48:34 meanwhile, ESR seems to be good at losing email 04:48:39 "losing" 04:48:47 he emailed me and asked for a copy of an email I'd sent him a few hours earlier 04:49:02 it got caught in his Evil Idiotarian Liberal Moron filter 04:49:07 (it filters 99.9% of email) 04:49:30 also, Knuth's secretary emailed him (CCing me) answering a question with, effectively, "I've told you that at least twice already, but here's the answer again) 04:49:35 kalise: no, he'd read the original 04:49:46 and had forgotten something I'd written in it, so asked for another copy 04:49:54 probably deletes the email he reads 04:50:01 yes, that was my conclusion 04:50:32 Because kilobytes matter on terabyte drives. 04:50:50 pikhq: i think it's an organisational thing used by people too stupid to create a Read folder 04:50:56 folder? 04:51:01 in their mail client 04:51:03 ais523: wow, KDE Help Center requires htdig to create a search index 04:51:03 what's wrong with the Read status in the email client? 04:51:07 how awful 04:51:14 what is htdig? 04:51:14 ais523: I mean, "read, considered, done". 04:51:22 htdig is an html thing 04:51:37 tl;dr KDE's help search works by indexing the rendered, output HTML files 04:51:59 o.O 04:52:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ht-//Dig 04:52:06 that's not necessarily insane 04:52:12 especially if they're stored as HTML in the first place 04:52:14 well, ok, but it does suck for the end-user 04:52:35 Rendered, not raw, so there should be nothing weird about searching for "html" 04:52:43 Sgeo: what? 04:52:54 Erm 04:53:00 "This configuration section is already opened in Konqueror" 04:53:03 no it isn't, I closed that window 04:53:07 stupid locking thing 04:53:16 oh, it's right 04:53:25 meanwhile, Paul Allen (the less famous founder of Microsoft) has gone and sued most of the major tech companies in existence, except Microsoft 04:53:33 one of the infringed patents is about using a browser to view images 04:53:50 heh 04:53:56 hmm, actually, data in general, but images and videos in particular 04:54:22 I've seen speculation that what he wants to do is to get people to realize the absurdity of software patents 04:54:24 I vote we sue him for hurting my faith in humanity. 04:54:53 Sgeo: it'd be a little expensive for that, wouldn't it? 04:55:04 hmm, I wonder if Florian Muller's turned up yet, and what side he's on? 04:55:18 ais523: He's a billionare. 04:55:20 a microsoft founder is actually a benevolent vigilante who throws away his millions for a good cause 04:55:21 apparently he hasn't 04:55:21 hahahaha 04:55:26 Sgeo you are great 04:55:27 He could wipe his ass with $100 bills. 04:55:43 kalise: the good cause might be a side-effect 04:56:04 incidentally, someone noticed that he seems to be avoiding suing companies based in Seattle 04:56:07 of what, more money? 04:56:10 whether that's a coincidence or not, who can say 04:56:17 kalise: well, software patents do screw up the economy 04:56:22 say he wants to make a tech startup 04:56:29 he could do worse than eliminating software patents first 04:56:39 bit of a bold aim 04:57:27 Konqueror bug: it uses KHTML 04:57:31 kalise: any opinions on why Intel bought McAfee, btw? 04:57:37 kalise: I thought it was being ported to Webkit? 04:57:46 ais523: "I need a virus scanner; buy McAfee for me." 04:57:49 kalise: Actually, it now uses QtWebkit. 04:57:51 yes, it is 04:57:54 pikhq: nope 04:57:56 kalise: I don't believe that theory 04:57:57 KDE SC 4.5, opened Konqueror 04:57:59 KHTML 04:58:04 Fuck that shit. 04:58:14 View -> View Mode -> (*) KHTML 04:58:14 Intel would surely notice if they bought a massive company by accident 04:58:25 ais523: well, it's utterly nonsensical, so I'm sticking to that theory 04:58:26 or even a medium-sized one 04:59:06 kalise: Ars Technica's theory, which is the only one that even makes remote sense, is that they want to move into the security software business (combined with security hardware on their chips) 04:59:15 and bought a company in a vaguely related area which already had market share 04:59:32 new theory: McAfee make a shit ton of money 04:59:36 Intel want a shit ton of money 04:59:47 Intel buy McAfee to accrue shit tons of money in the future 05:00:01 any flaws with this one? 05:00:12 my parents dismissed that one 05:00:26 on the basis that investment banks would have done it first if it was purely based on accounting reasons 05:00:58 Intel are not likely going around looking for undervalued companies to buy as an investment 05:01:11 sure, it'd be useful for them, but companies that specialise in that are likely to get there first 05:01:34 yes, but it's a well-known fact that buying McAfee will get you a ton of money in the long-term 05:01:39 Intel are in a vaguely related sector 05:01:44 so it makes sense that they'd look for companies to buy up 05:01:52 in that sector 05:02:03 no? 05:02:13 perhaps 05:02:16 i'd say intel got mcafee quite cheap 05:02:39 they do have the advantage that they could plausibly act so as to aid mcafee 05:03:06 also, my faith in #esoteric has been restored by nobody yet suggesting hardware antivirus 05:03:25 wait, why would that /restore/ your faith in our esotericiness? 05:03:53 no, it restores my faith in humanity 05:03:56 but only a small subset of it 05:04:06 so I should say the #esoteric community 05:04:07 but our point is to be basically inhumane 05:04:08 rather than the channel itself 05:04:27 nah, most esolangs are not morally objectionable 05:04:35 hardware antivirus is? 05:04:47 also, what esolangs /are/ morally objectionable? 05:04:52 no, it's just a really realy bad idea 05:04:56 *really 05:05:23 DUM! dum dam dum dum! 05:05:39 you get a cookie if that played correctly in your head, first time 05:07:52 kalise: Ook. 05:08:00 ook 05:08:01 kalise: YOU TORTURE MONKEYS TO MAKE THE OOKS. 05:08:14 ah so that's why the language is interesting 05:10:12 anyway, the reconstructed C-INTERCAL repo is at http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal 05:10:35 "Eric S. Raymond 05:10:36 ais523" 05:10:43 How can you shame yourself with such juxtaposition? 05:10:47 those are our gitorious usernames 05:11:06 http://gitorious.org/cyclexa/mainline 05:11:09 and I don't see why you can't work with someone on an unrelated task even if you disagree with their philosophies 05:11:29 It's like, uh, working with Hitler! 05:11:33 Or something! 05:12:10 What's wrong with ESR? 05:12:12 you just compared ESR to Hitler? 05:12:18 that's illegal in Germany, among other things 05:12:20 IN A MANNER 05:12:30 Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany. 05:12:36 Sgeo: enough 05:12:40 and many of them should be elsewhere too 05:12:43 although probably not /that/ one 05:13:09 kalise: You know who else made things illegal? 05:13:11 HITLER 05:13:14 "Genocide is illegal in Germany!" "Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany." 05:13:21 "Rape is illegal in Germany!" "Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany." 05:13:28 This is a defence that works in many situations. 05:13:35 it's a pretty bad defense 05:13:45 But a GOOD one! 05:14:05 is "a but not a" inherently false? 05:15:01 Not if you believe the dialetheists! 05:15:02 Is "but" a logical ... operator thingy? 05:15:11 but not = and not, pretty much 05:15:56 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the value of ( = ) is 05:16:01 My toe is painfully itchy :( 05:16:16 05:16:41 ais523: >_< 05:16:45 Gnome calculator says "Malformed expression" 05:16:55 also, makes a strange clicking noise whenever you press or release Shift 05:16:58 *gcalctool 05:17:00 haha 05:17:16 * Sgeo goes insane 05:17:18 it both a) makes logical sense, and b) is annoying 05:17:53 hey, the "using alphabetised lists to verbosely restate simple statements for dramatic effect" patent belongs to ME! 05:18:20 a) My toe b) is itchy 05:18:26 * oerjan suggests putting on some lotion 05:18:52 My toe is (a) a toe, and (b) itchy. 05:19:15 (a) prior (b) art 05:20:48 Goodnight. 05:20:49 -!- kalise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:20:58 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:26:51 Obviously, I should ask in here next time I have a medical issue 05:28:52 trust me, i'm a doctor 05:29:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: of mathematics). 05:29:09 ZOIDBERG! 05:29:38 http://irc.peeron.com/xkcd/bucket/literal_irc%20medical%20advice.txt 05:30:43 pikhq: context? 05:31:33 ais523, on Futurama, Zoidberg is a "doctor" who doesn't know the first thing about human anatomy 05:31:53 ah, I assumed it was a Final Fantasy reference 05:32:34 ais523: You should watch Futurama. 05:32:53 I have watched bits, when I noticed it was on 05:33:01 but I don't really track things like the individual characters 05:33:22 Watch a few episodes, it'll be easy. 05:33:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOwX0qGhdlg 05:34:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwQF9g6EjPw&feature=related 05:46:38 "The autopsy revealed that the patient was asleep." 05:46:52 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 05:47:07 * Sgeo does an autopsy on Gregor-L 05:47:16 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor. 05:47:23 My internet connection left my computer. 06:22:22 I'm even less like AnMaster than you are in that respect <-- XD 06:22:54 Gregor, ouch, what is/was the cause? 06:23:17 Gregor, still, temporary using phone for tethering is a slow but not too expensive solution 06:23:27 (at least with my dataplan) 06:24:29 assuming it has left you completely 06:24:36 instead of just a specific computer 06:24:45 (in the latter case, even more ouch) 06:25:01 bbl 06:25:01 Vorpal: I was referring to taking my phone away from the computer :P 06:26:52 * Sgeo isn't allowed to tether 06:38:39 Define "allowed" 06:38:44 I'm not "allowed" to tether. 06:39:46 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:40:02 Also, I have gcc on my phone now >: ) 06:40:12 I think I should install lighttpd on it next :P 06:40:32 -!- wareya has joined. 06:49:20 -!- trounce_ has joined. 06:56:09 -!- trounce_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:56:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:03:00 My dad wants me to choose between eReader and netbook I can bring to school 07:03:09 I don't think netbooks can really run IDEs that well 07:03:34 I mean, the class I need it for is Perl, and just ssh really, so for this semester it's ok, but... 07:04:38 Also, I still want that infinite notepad paper that the eReader promises 07:11:06 What eReader? 07:11:22 If you want infinite notepad paper, go with something more like ... notepad paper. 07:11:43 Also: IDE? You mean an editor and a shell? 07:12:19 pikhq: Also a compiler, and maybe make :P 07:12:39 Anyway, if those are your only options, then clearly the netbook. 07:12:40 Gregor: Okay, fine. 07:12:48 Sgeo: Also: IDE? You mean ssh? 07:13:11 * pikhq goes to listen to some Hitchhiker's Guide, then bed. 07:20:15 pikhq, as in, Visual Studio 07:20:30 Or something more OSS like Code::Blocks 07:26:06 If I get the eReader, I would have to bring my heavy laptop to school 07:38:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 07:50:52 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:04:15 -!- Gregor has joined. 08:17:46 fungot, fungot fungot 08:17:46 Phantom_Hoover: being a man... it's not here... better get some rest tonight. let's do our best, but... i can't stop anymore. 08:48:15 ^style 08:48:15 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 08:48:28 Gregor, ah I see 08:49:02 I'm not "allowed" to tether. <-- I'm allowed to, but the carrier warns that "it won't work with an iphone, nothing we can do about that" 08:49:22 and there is no way I would ever consider getting an iphone 08:49:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:50:12 Sgeo, why a netbook btw? 08:50:37 Well, are there small laptops roughly as light as netbooks? Are they as cheap? 08:50:47 If so, I'll try to convince my dad 08:50:51 Sgeo, I use a laptop, 15". Large enough to use for extended periods while small enough for me to carry in a non-oversized backpack 08:51:20 Sgeo, *my* laptop isn't cheap. It is a thinkpad. But I'm pretty sure a dell of the same screen size and similar cpu would be way cheaper 08:51:28 of course it wouldn't last as long 08:51:55 and would lack features like acceleration sensor to move harddrive head over the discs and so on 08:52:06 and would have a non-matte monitor 08:52:14 not sure if you consider that a problem 08:52:25 Sgeo, still it would probably run visual studio quite well 08:52:32 and there are small ones, 13" and such iirc 08:52:59 Sgeo, iirc alise and ais523 both have some "netbook sized, laptop performance" computers 08:53:14 Toshiba iirc, could be wrong though 08:53:37 Any advantages to a netbook over a netbook-sized laptop? 08:53:42 Sgeo, but using visual studio on a 12" would probably not be a very pleasant experience 08:53:59 Sgeo, maybe battery life, not sure. 08:54:39 Sgeo, and that netbooks probably still come with xp instead of vista or 7. Though that is easy to fix. If nothing else most universities seem to provide MSDNAA to compsci students these days 08:55:25 Sgeo, oh and with a laptop you can probably run windows in virtualbox with reasonable performance. I can recommend the 64-bit xp pro as being especially fast under virualbox for me 08:55:53 haven't tried visual studio though, never really needed it 08:56:25 * Sgeo does need to sleep 08:57:18 Sgeo, surely it's about 5 in the States? 08:57:24 4 08:57:35 I should have been asleep a while ago 08:58:35 Sgeo, the C programming teacher showed visual studio running in some xp under virtualbox on his netbook. He ran linux as the native OS, saw it when he was hooking up the projector. His window manager was twm 08:58:44 never really seen anyone else use that for ages 08:59:25 Why wouldn't he just use an IDE that runs under Linux if that's.... Oh. Idiot students 08:59:32 Sgeo, he showed emacs too :P 08:59:56 Sgeo, but since the lab computers have xp he needed to show how it worked there 08:59:58 Ok, putting the computer down and sleeping 09:00:05 cya 09:01:01 Vorpal, I've toyed with twm... 09:01:25 Mainly because it's the only proper X window manager on OS X, though. 09:10:13 heh 09:10:31 Phantom_Hoover, X on OS X doesn't look like it is using twm iirc? 09:10:44 rather window bars look like native OS X iirc 09:10:46 It doesnt by default. 09:10:52 *doesn't 09:11:15 But it does have twm installed. 09:12:17 mhm 09:25:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:37:41 My god, this Stig thing is completely insane... 09:48:42 What happened to thutubot, BtW? 09:57:50 Stig? 09:58:07 coppro, the test driver on a British motoring show. 09:58:34 He always wears overalls and a helmet, and his identity is a closely guarded secret. 09:58:38 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:58:50 ah 09:58:53 But now he wants to publish an autobiography, and the BBC are Very Annoyed at this. 10:06:13 hah 10:06:45 It is probably the most ridiculous thing ever. 10:06:49 I suppose anonymous publishing is out of the question 10:11:38 Ooh, I know the show; I think some Finnish channel shows it, and my wife's brothers watch it. We were visiting one day and saw this episode where they "revealed" his identity to be Schumacher. 10:11:54 No recollection of the name though. 10:12:07 -!- tombom has joined. 10:24:28 fizzie, yeah, but that's widely accepted as being a joke. 10:26:43 Yes, thus "revealed". 10:28:39 "The original Stig actor, Perry McCarthy revealed his identity in his autobiography[2][3] in 2002. In 2003 his character, the 'Black Stig', was killed off, and replaced with the 'White Stig'." Heh; if he goes through with the book, it seems he should be careful of "accidents". 10:53:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:05:53 checking for gcc... gcc 11:05:53 checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... no 11:05:53 checking whether gcc accepts -g... no 11:05:53 checking for gcc option to accept ISO C89... unsupported 11:05:54 hm 11:05:58 that looks strange 11:06:24 and then it complain about stdlib.h not exisiting, yet when I try out the commands that it reports fails in config.log manually... everything works 11:06:25 wtf 11:29:05 -!- Dyle has joined. 11:33:44 -!- Dyle has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:44:57 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:46:47 hm got it to compile in the end 11:46:51 From the debug output of a JIT compiler for 68k emulation: Max CPUID level=10 Processor is GenuineIntel [PentiumPro] 11:46:51 This is a bit strange since it is running on a core 2 duo and JITing to x86_64 code. 11:46:51 Works fine though as far as I can tell... 11:47:19 fizzie, iirc you are the guy most likely to have a clue about what might cause that 11:48:25 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:48:27 it seems to have x86-64 as an alternative 11:48:37 hm, maybe it only checks for AMD + x86-64 or such 12:12:41 I think you'll need to look at the sources if you are curious enough. The CPUID model/family bits are a real mess, though. 12:15:16 "Max CPUID level=10" probably refers to the value returned by function 0, which returns the vendor-ID ("GenuineIntel" if it's a core 2) and the largest supported standard cpuid function; 10 sounds a reasonable value there. 12:19:42 It probably says "PentiumPro" because PPro is the first CPU to return family=6, which is what pentiums II, III, M, and Core/Core2/Core i7, and Atom, return too. (P4 returns family=15, for some unclear reason.) 12:20:05 They can be separated from each other by the "model" number, but maybe it doesn't look at that. 12:20:30 hm 12:20:47 fizzie, indeed it seems to not look at the model 12:27:02 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:27:17 heh... I never seen System 7 boot in less than a second before. Ubuntu didn't compile the package with JIT support, but since they dropped it in lucid I had to compile it myself anyway, and thus enabled JIT. Even without JIT it boots way faster than any real mac that came with system 7. But with the JIT on and the "lazy invalidation" option it boots so fast I can only see a flicker after the happy mac s 12:27:17 creen. 12:27:26 and even the happy mac one is unusually fast 12:28:40 "Intel® Processor Identification and the CPUID Instruction" application note has the CPUID family/model table, and it's about four pages with numerous footnotes, and that's only Intel's own chips. 12:29:30 "To differentiate between the Pentium III processor, model 7 and the Pentium III Xeon processor, model 7, software should check the cache descriptor values through executing CPUID instruction with EAX = 2. If 1M or 2M L2 cache size is reported, the processor is the Pentium III Xeon processor otherwise it is a Pentium III processor or a Pentium III Xeon processor with 512-KB L2 cache size." 12:30:01 fizzie, you said i7 returns family 6 too, but what about i5? 12:30:20 Probably that, too, but the table was dated 2009, and I don't think they had introduced i3/i5 at that time. 12:30:32 ah 12:30:39 fungot, what style are you on at the moment? 12:30:39 Phantom_Hoover: tonight's enchantment night! all you like? oh, by the train. hoo-boy... all clear' function. 12:30:49 FFVII, then. 12:31:09 fungot: Do you have some good ideas for new styles? 12:31:09 fizzie: this is my special gas chamber. take care of you to stop that stupid heidegger ever use it right now. 12:33:35 fizzie, I did have one, but I've forgotten it. 12:36:26 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 12:42:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:43:08 ^style 12:43:08 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 12:43:12 hm yes 12:46:27 -!- iGO has quit. 12:50:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:22:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:30:31 -!- derdon has joined. 13:31:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:31:52 -!- sftp has joined. 13:35:54 -!- Zuu has joined. 13:35:55 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 13:35:55 -!- Zuu has joined. 13:43:20 -!- derdon has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 14:22:50 hm anyone has any experience with SDL here? 14:23:16 I'm wondering how to make it not do X11 stuff async so I can get a meaningful backtrace for this X11 error... 14:24:54 I doubt you can make the X11 video-driver do that without any code changes. 14:25:07 fizzie, you can do it for gtk stuff by just passing --sync iirc 14:25:15 I'm looking for something similar for sdl 14:25:28 It takes some SDL_VIDEO_X11_FOO environment-variable options, but there doesn't seem to be anything useful there. 14:26:10 The list is at http://sdl.beuc.net/sdl.wiki/SDL_envvars but it doesn't seem very useful. 14:27:46 SDL_DEBUG has sometimes been useful for debugging, but probably not for a delayed X11 error. 14:28:54 strange but I get different errors at different points 14:28:55 hm 14:29:27 hm this one is new... "Fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server :0.0." 14:29:57 and how strange.... the backtrace winds through both SDL and gdk... 14:30:13 hm it supports both optionally so I guess this makes it even trickier 14:30:25 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 14:30:35 but at least this last one seems sensibly related to what I was doing at the time of the crash (moving mouse) 14:30:48 SDL_CreateCursor is in the backtrace 14:31:18 fizzie, btw it seems lucid has messed up the debugging symbol repos, missing for packages in lucid-updates 14:31:39 I guess I have to downgrade to lucid for those packages to make the debugging symbols work... 14:49:37 For some completely inexplicable reason, I wrote myself a private pastebin, even though the improvements gained over something like sprunge.us are pretty minor. (Works as a tinyurl-style link-shortener, can handle non-text/plain stuff too, able to specify meaningful names for pastes, and update/delete existing ones.) 14:53:24 fizzie, pretty much only works for only one user pasting 14:53:37 Sure, but like I said, it's private. 14:53:39 considering the meaningful name bit 14:54:17 Here's a random kernel source file: http://p.zem.fi/test -- and through the highlighting eggine, http://p.zem.fi/test.c 14:54:24 fizzie, hm it seems that SDL_DEBUG makes it do sync stuff more often, though not all the time 14:54:27 how strange 14:54:35 and yes whatever it is, it is definitely cursor related 14:56:17 #ifdef X11_DEBUG 14:56:17 XSynchronize(SDL_Display, True); 14:56:17 #endif 14:56:21 (SDL_X11video.c) 14:56:31 Not a runtime option, of course. :p 15:00:21 gah 15:00:36 fizzie, could I fake that from the program source you think? 15:00:47 as in, do I have access to call it where needed 15:02:07 I think so, yes, though you might need to do some very nonstandard fiddling to get the SDL_Display value. 15:02:32 fizzie, ah I see 15:03:33 SDL_Display is a macro for this->hidden->X11_Display, and 'this' is a SDL_VideoDevice * from somewhere. 15:04:09 static int X11_VideoInit(_THIS, SDL_PixelFormat *vformat) 15:04:11 wtf is that 15:04:19 _THIS ? 15:04:29 _THIS is "SDL_VideoDevice *this". 15:04:39 So that the code inside can use "this->foo". 15:05:01 well then I just need to step a few times and do call XSynchronize(whatever, 1) 15:05:01 :D 15:05:49 Anyway, you can get the Display* from a public SDL function, too: SDL_GetWMInfo fills a SDL_SysWMinfo structure for you, and then you have (assuming SDL_SysWMInfo i) i.info.x11.display that's a Display*. 15:07:41 int (*XSynchronize(Display *display, Bool onoff))(); 15:07:42 hm 15:07:50 that doesn't look quite right 15:08:00 why is there function pointer syntax there in it 15:08:09 (gdb) call XSynchronize(this->hidden->X11_Display, 1) 15:08:09 $8 = (int (*)(Display *)) 0 15:08:13 that looks suspect too 15:08:25 -!- alise has joined. 15:08:42 It returns a function. 15:08:46 hm right 15:08:56 The one set by XSetAfterFunction. 15:09:06 wut 15:09:13 well it returned a NULL function pointer 15:09:33 I don't think that matters much. 15:09:43 It should still toggle the synchronization thing on. 15:10:06 aaah way more useful error 15:10:19 it was cursor related still but not the same call 15:10:47 fizzie, now to try to decode this: http://sprunge.us/gTJJ 15:10:49 sigh 15:10:53 Wow, I'm actually getting used to freetype's rendering-sans-hinting. 15:11:09 Actually all usage of freetype is akin to getting used to something. 15:11:19 Usually a stupid thing. 15:11:41 It tries to FreeCursor something that hasn't been Cursored, is my guess. 15:12:47 fizzie, well... that's strange. I can't trace it back very far into the application due to JITing. Still hm... Actually that stack trace looks VERY strange 15:13:01 http://sprunge.us/EPKV 15:13:04 strange even for JITing 15:14:00 ../SDL/video_sdl.cpp is in the app, I guess that is the best place to continue looking now 15:14:38 fizzie, btw this things require at least -O1 to compile. Not sure why exactly but some JIT auto-code-poke tools seems to want -O1 or higher 15:14:46 clog, do you even do anything other than log? 15:15:23 He also clogs. 15:15:43 (The pipes.) 15:16:10 err I wonder... I have no idea if it is allowed but I think it frees a cursor without hiding it first 15:16:11 hm... 15:17:07 I don't think that should be a crashy problem, but who knows. 15:17:44 fizzie, other things making this fun to debug, this thing does more mad things with mmap than jitfunge (it requires being able to map at 0x0) and also more segv stuff than it. (sigsegv is somehow related to video refreshing... I haven't probed too much into that area) 15:19:20 Incidentally, if you want to try a trivial thing, try out "SDL_VIDEO_X11_DGAMOUSE=1 ./app"; it should use a bit different mouserying thing then. 15:19:39 My guess is an app bug, still, but. 15:21:16 fizzie, hm 15:21:41 fizzie, what does DGAMOUSE do? 15:21:56 and can it still set custom bitmaps for the cursor? 15:23:02 what are we doing here? 15:24:02 Presumably it uses the DGA extension's mouse thing. Though I doubt it actually affects the cursor parts at all. 15:24:24 Vorpal's setting up some sort of JIT'ing 68k emulator which keeps crashing, if I've understood right. 15:24:30 "Introducing... Web Workers *BETA* / combining the sanity of threads with the robustness of web development / Smiling Cartoon Guy: What could possibly go wrong? / TODO: - Find out what could possibly go wrong" 15:25:24 fizzie, well no, ppc. I'm trying to get sheepshaver to work with SDL since SDL makes one of the programs I want to emulate work properly (as opposed to the plain X alternative) 15:26:09 fizzie, the 68k was separate (though sheepshaver and basiliskII share quite a bit of code) 15:27:15 Oh, okay. Well, nevertheless. 15:27:30 SheepShaver is incredibly crashy. 15:28:38 00:50:37 Well, are there small laptops roughly as light as netbooks? Are they as cheap? 15:28:40 alise, yes but there is no better alternative 15:28:50 i have an extremely light 13" laptop that i use for everything 15:28:56 it cost a bit less than £500. 15:29:09 it isn't sold any more. there's a new model out. it is probably just as good. 15:29:13 sheepshaver is the only classic mac PPC emulator I know of 15:29:38 00:53:37 Any advantages to a netbook over a netbook-sized laptop? ;; a bit longer battery life, slightly smaller (but not really lighter in any real sense) 15:29:43 I'd always recommend the latter. 15:30:00 alise, does he log read? 15:30:12 maybe not but i can ping him next time he's online 15:30:18 right 15:30:36 01:01:25 Mainly because it's the only proper X window manager on OS X, though. 15:30:40 You can install ones, you know. 15:30:46 Mac-on-Linux works well (in my limited testing), but of course is not much of a help unless you have a PPC linux system handy. 15:30:58 01:58:07 coppro, the test driver on a British motoring show. 15:31:04 Top Gear is famous enough to reference by name. 15:31:53 02:11:38 Ooh, I know the show; I think some Finnish channel shows it, and my wife's brothers watch it. We were visiting one day and saw this episode where they "revealed" his identity to be Schumacher. 15:31:56 Yes, that is Top Gear. 15:33:44 Vorpal: so are you patching the program? 15:33:54 if so, please publish a tarball or a .patch 15:36:50 alise, I couldn't be bothered to install WMs on OS X. 15:37:19 I once installed evilwm on OS X; what an absurd combination. 15:37:26 macports makes it quite easy. although the cool kids use homebrew these days 15:37:56 fizzie: I remember my plight to get KDE 3 compiling with native OS X Qt. 15:37:56 (evilwm's in macports, too.) 15:38:01 God bless me for attempting that. 15:38:09 Someone else already managed it; I never could, though. 15:38:19 The whole goal was running Amarok on OS X without that pesky X11 thing. 15:38:38 This was before KDE 4 made it all officially supported and whatnot. 15:40:06 [[David Sansome and John McGuire have been working on a project, which aims to port Amarok 1.4 to Qt4 and rewrite it to make full use of Qt4 features. The project has been christened as “clementine-player”.]] 15:40:07 sweet! 15:40:46 http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-2.png Who would have thought that Amark would look native on Windows? 15:44:21 alise, I will patch the program if I figure out how to fix it 15:44:35 my first guess turned out to be wrong 15:44:47 and no I have no clue why it acts like this 15:47:18 Would the same issue happen with BasiliskII? 15:47:33 I'd try myself but I don't want to put in so much effort that still neglects System Software 6. 15:48:52 alise, no it doesn't seem to use the same code path for the cursor handling 15:49:06 no clue why that is 15:49:07 So BasiliskII works, then? 15:49:21 alise, for this, it is quite easy to make it crash as well 15:49:36 just not quite as easy as with sheepshaver 15:50:30 alise, and atm I'm suspecting memory corruption, since everything seems to be done correctly as far as I can tell... And valgrind on sheepshaver would not work. 15:50:46 valkyrie grind 15:51:49 alise, guess what VOSF stands for in the preprocessor define ENABLE_VOSF 15:51:56 [[You can then try to compile the program with 15:51:56 $ cd src/Unix 15:51:57 $ ./autogen.sh 15:51:57 $ make 15:51:57 under Linux, or 15:51:57 $ cd src/BeOS 15:51:59 $ make 15:52:01 under BeOS.]] 15:52:05 Vorpal: Vandalise Open Source Foundation 15:52:13 alise, Video On SegFault 15:52:31 http://homepage3.nifty.com/toshi3/emu/sheepshaver1.html why does this say sheepshaver for x86 15:52:35 alise, no I have no idea what exactly it does but it sure scares me 15:52:40 hm? 15:52:50 videos your reaction and uploads it to youtube 15:52:55 alise, sheepshaver works on linux/ppc too iirc 15:53:04 Some random links 15:53:05 Basilisk II 15:53:05 SheepShaver for x86 (日本語) --Sheepshaver home page 15:53:07 *SheepShaver 15:53:12 i'll just use the emaculation source 15:53:12 alise, use the CVS version 15:53:14 not the official one 15:53:18 alise, they are less buggy 15:53:19 by far 15:53:26 as in, actually compiles 15:53:26 than the emaculation sources? 15:53:41 um 15:53:58 alise, I used cvs from http://www.cebix.net/ 15:54:01 hmm, not sure if they've actually done any sourec work 15:54:15 Vorpal: i'm talking about http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/sheepshaver which is where most people get their sheepshaver fix 15:54:16 alise, there are actually a few random recent commits 15:54:20 like adding missing include 15:54:21 and such 15:54:29 http://www.emaculation.com/lib/exe/detail.php/sheep1.png?id=sheepshaver Graphing Calculator fuck yeah!!!!!!!!! 15:54:42 Optional dependencies for clementine 15:54:43 gstreamer0.10-base-plugins: for more open formats 15:54:43 gstreamer0.10-good-plugins: still free 15:54:43 gstreamer0.10-ugly-plugins: damn if you really need those 15:54:50 clementine? 15:54:59 Vorpal: a port of Amarok 1.4 to Qt 4 15:55:06 Amarok 1.4 = Amarok before they ruined it with the stupid 2 interface 15:55:13 well, also maintained and changed and stuff 15:55:16 but those are its origins 15:55:41 alise, anyway sheepshaver runs as long as you use X11+esd instead of SDL for video and/or audio 15:55:45 http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-1.png on Linux 15:55:47 http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-2.png on Windows :P 15:55:56 Vorpal: esd? seriously? 15:56:07 alise, well yes from configure options it seems to use that 15:56:19 god CVS is so crazy 15:56:20 or wait 15:56:30 maybe it uses esd with OSS fallback 15:56:32 "Can I run MacOS X applications under Windows with this? 15:56:32 No. Firstly, SheepShaver doesn't run under Windows. Secondly, MacOS X doesn't run under SheepShaver." 15:56:33 that could explain it 15:56:45 s/^ // 15:56:50 alise, indeed you need OS 8/9 for sheepshaver 15:56:57 it's just a funny answer :P 15:57:00 right 15:57:21 actually don't trust me on MacOS 8 working with it 15:57:23 I haven't tried 15:57:28 since I don't own a copy of that 15:57:35 (which I do for OS 9) 15:57:41 and 15:57:44 very important 15:57:51 you need 9.0.4, no later 15:58:08 later ones use those "blue tasks" which sheepshaver can't hande 15:58:10 handle* 15:58:17 google blue tasks if you want to find out details 15:58:24 they were.... strange 15:59:02 who cares about those versions 15:59:10 alise, hm? 15:59:24 System Software 6, System Software/Mac OS 7, Mac OS 8. 15:59:27 Nothing else matters. 15:59:38 alise, well I don't know how well 8 works with sheepshaver 15:59:46 so how do you configure the build? 15:59:47 and as I said, I don't own a copy of 8 15:59:49 edit some header file? 15:59:54 alise, sheepshaver or basilisk? 15:59:59 sheepshaver 16:00:22 System Software 6, while obviously the most usable and fastest release, does not really have much software support. 16:00:25 alise, http://sheepshaver.cebix.net/ tells you 16:00:35 does not 16:00:38 yes it does 16:00:39 only shows a stock compile process 16:00:40 grep for autogen 16:00:48 yes 16:00:50 oh 16:00:50 alise, ah, autogen invokes configure 16:00:51 right 16:00:55 so just pass it --help 16:00:58 then use normal configure 16:01:20 alise, anyway you need a ROM image for this, which you can extract with basilisk from an update for PPC 16:01:20 Vorpal: try compiling it with clang >:) 16:01:27 that is how I bootstrapped it :) 16:01:32 Vorpal: Yes, or, I could pirate one 16:01:33 since the rom on my mac didn't work 16:01:34 *one. 16:01:57 i'm actually gonna compile this with clang 16:02:00 alise, oh and basilisk cvs configure is currently broken 16:02:02 wish me luck 16:02:07 alise, you need to edit configure.ac 16:02:18 i'll only be doing sheepshaver for now 16:02:21 right 16:02:26 that works somewhat out of box 16:02:34 just remember to not enable sdl 16:02:40 system7today.com is so fun :) 16:02:51 "Foo? Yeah, System 7 can do that." 16:02:56 alise, can sheepshaver run system 7? 16:03:02 yes 16:03:12 well the ROM it needs is from OS 8 iirc 16:03:17 hmm 16:03:33 well you can do it with basilisk 16:03:35 using the older 7s 16:03:37 "And for Basilisk I recommend the Performa ROM (it makes System 7 boot" 16:03:44 22 Aug 2010 ... SheepShaver for Windows is best used with Mac OS 8.6 to 9.0.4, but check below for notes about running System 7. ... 16:03:48 so yes 16:03:52 alise, you need a rom for basilisk yes 16:03:54 different one 16:04:19 huh, clang does not have an -On options? 16:04:23 *option 16:04:30 um what? 16:04:36 -O1, -O2, etc. 16:04:37 oh, it does 16:04:38 up to -O4 16:04:40 eh no idea 16:04:48 clang -pipe -O4 --analyze 16:04:56 oh, that's just a bug finder 16:04:59 just -pipe -O4 then 16:05:18 --enable-ppc-emulator use the selected PowerPC emulator default=auto 16:05:18 alise, yeah it's a bug finder! It would probably go spare at sheepshaver 16:05:19 eh? 16:05:32 alise, that is because it runs code natively on Linux/PPC 16:05:41 alise, don't use that flag 16:05:46 so why would you use SDL instead of X11/esd? 16:05:47 it will figure out you aren't on PPC 16:06:05 does it have a make uninstall? 16:06:19 alise, well, until it crashes it makes one of the games I get nostalgic about work. the X11 one just gives a black screen in it 16:06:31 anyway it crashes sooner or later with sdl even without running that game 16:06:41 [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CFLAGS="-pipe -O4" ./autogen.sh 16:06:43 i'm wiiiild 16:06:46 configure: error: in `/home/ehird/bii/SheepShaver/src/Unix': 16:06:47 configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables 16:06:49 i'm not wiiiiild 16:06:50 alise, --prefix 16:06:53 hm 16:06:59 Vorpal: if it has make uninstall i don't need prefix :) 16:07:01 alise, I don't know why it can't 16:07:21 clang: error: 'x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu': unable to pass LLVM bit-code files to 16:07:21 linker 16:07:54 alise, well it installs 4 files or such iirc, the binary, a man page, a keymap (need to be customised!) and finally some tun-iface script example 16:07:55 ah 16:07:56 -O4 breaks 16:08:00 how utterly bizarre 16:08:05 -O3 works 16:08:22 does --with-dgcc default to $CC? 16:08:23 alise, I suspect your chance of success is close to zero with clang 16:08:29 --with-dgcc ? 16:08:34 some configure option 16:08:38 what does it do 16:08:40 AC_ARG_WITH(dgcc, [ --with-dgcc=COMPILER use C++ COMPILER to compi 16:08:41 le synthetic opcodes], [DYNGEN_CC=$withval]) 16:09:03 USE_DYNGEN = @USE_DYNGEN@ 16:09:03 DYNGENSRCS = @DYNGENSRCS@ 16:09:03 DYNGEN_CC = @DYNGEN_CC@ 16:09:03 DYNGEN_CFLAGS = @DYNGEN_CFLAGS@ 16:09:05 alise, oh right, with gcc at least, you need at least -O1 in CFLAGS 16:09:07 ... 16:09:14 otherwise some compile time generation tool will segfault 16:09:23 [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CFLAGS="-pipe -O3" ./autogen.sh 16:09:24 time for lols 16:09:33 wow configure is working 16:09:39 you forgot CXXFLAGS I think 16:09:39 that's unbelievable 16:09:45 it is mixed C/C++ 16:09:51 thanks 16:10:10 alise, I think it is possibly even more insane to use clang for the C++ code though 16:10:20 Configuration done. Now type "make". 16:10:34 * alise cracks knuckles 16:10:35 Time for action. 16:10:41 cc1plus: error: unrecognized command line option "-mdynamic-no-pic" 16:10:42 Woooo 16:10:48 g++ -I../kpx_cpu/include 16:10:50 Why, sir, why 16:10:50 err 16:10:51 oh 16:10:53 CC isn't CXX 16:10:54 is it? 16:11:00 configure checks if -mdynamic-no-pic is supported 16:11:03 what do i set for C++ compiler? 16:11:08 alise, CC and CXX are separate yeah 16:11:13 try ./configure --help 16:11:15 to list vars 16:11:18 remember to make distclean 16:11:20 in between 16:11:26 it breaks otherwise... sometimes 16:11:28 does clang Just Work if you pass it a c++ file? 16:11:45 just work as in just break :P 16:11:50 (because it sucks at C++) 16:11:51 alise, I never tried 16:12:01 worth a try 16:12:16 alise, do I look like a walking man-page/google/encyclopedia? 16:12:20 yes 16:12:27 well, ais523 looks like that to you 16:12:32 so i may as well return the favour 16:12:33 hm 16:12:37 :P 16:12:41 /bin/sh: clang^CFLAGS=-pipe: command not found 16:12:47 whaaat 16:12:47 [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CXX=clang^CFLAGS="-pipe -O3" CXXFLAGS="-pipe -O3" ./autogen.sh 16:12:52 after copy-pasting from a line I ^C'd on 16:12:52 well 16:12:53 hahaha 16:13:03 i think 16:13:08 alise, why did ^C insert a literal one though 16:13:27 because that's how my terminal displays it? 16:13:29 or rather my shell 16:13:34 i think 16:13:37 if you do it mid-line 16:13:42 wow 16:13:45 clang is actually compiling this Vorpal 16:13:50 ../timer.cpp:342:32: warning: conversion specifies type 'unsigned long' but the 16:13:51 argument has type 'uint32' (aka 'unsigned int') [-Wformat] 16:13:51 printf("WARNING: InsTime(%08lx): Task re-inserted\n", tm); 16:13:51 ~~~~^ ~~ 16:13:57 alise, I doubt doubt it will work for a few files 16:14:01 alise, some are pretty sane 16:14:04 sigsegv.cpp:2585:30: error: use of undeclared identifier 16:14:04 'SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST' 16:14:04 static bool handle_badaccess(SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1) 16:14:10 sigsegv.cpp:2490:41: note: instantiated from: 16:14:10 #define SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1 SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST 16:14:14 what the hell does that mean? 16:14:16 alise, ah you need a patch from the karmic package for that I think 16:14:20 let me pastebin it 16:14:21 Vorpal: got a link? 16:14:22 thanks 16:15:07 alise, http://sprunge.us/JGEf http://sprunge.us/KGZG 16:15:12 alise, probably need both 16:15:19 alise, I applied before even trying to compile 16:15:36 wait, not the True case one 16:15:41 I think that one is fixed in cvs 16:15:42 ahh -O4 is link-time optimisation 16:16:09 wow 16:16:14 konqueror opens http://sprunge.us/KGZG syntax-highlighted as a diff 16:16:17 with code folding to the side 16:16:20 thanks to kate 16:16:23 haha 16:16:34 alise, yes and? 16:16:42 alise, it done that for ages 16:16:45 even in 3.x 16:17:12 still, impressive that it autodetected the former 16:17:13 *format 16:17:23 hm 16:18:34 error on the same file fun fun 16:18:38 sigsegv.cpp:2592:31: error: use of undeclared identifier 16:18:39 'SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS'; did you mean 'SIGSEGV_INVALID_ADDRESS'? 16:18:39 SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST; 16:18:39 ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 16:18:43 this is from the video on segfault thing I bet 16:18:57 Vorpal: but yeah, what now 16:19:03 alise, I didn't get that one 16:19:08 alise, so no clue 16:19:26 #define SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESSsip->si_addr 16:19:28 alise, are you sure you applied the patch properly? 16:19:28 it's defined, so wut? 16:19:56 patch -p3 p3? 16:20:08 oh not in top dir? 16:20:10 first one that worked :) 16:20:11 yeah, in Unix 16:20:30 patch --dry-run is awesome 16:20:45 pity it isn't -n or something short 16:21:46 gah 16:21:50 sigsegv.cpp is so impossible 16:21:55 to read 16:22:08 alise, I haven't needed to edit it so far apart from that patch 16:22:24 what system? 16:22:28 linux 64-bit right? 16:22:39 linux x86-64, ubuntu lucid 16:23:02 alise, and I think I only needed that patch for basiliskII, not for sheepshaver 16:23:05 so hm 16:23:28 #ifdef HAVE_SIGSEGV_RECOVERY 16:23:28 static bool handle_badaccess(SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1) 16:23:29 #else 16:23:29 static bool handle_badaccess() 16:23:29 #endif 16:23:29 { 16:23:31 sigsegv_info_t SI; 16:23:33 SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST; 16:23:35 problem located 16:23:46 surely this can't work if the SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1 isn't there 16:23:57 gah, i don't know 16:23:59 hm? 16:24:01 i think it's misdetecting my system 16:24:02 somehow 16:24:05 alise, I think you might be missing some dep 16:24:09 i am not 16:24:16 i can't find the bloody block of defines that define it for regular 64-bit linux 16:24:19 in sigsegv.cpp 16:24:35 alise, this was in sigsegv of basilisk, not sheepshaver. Right? 16:24:41 aha 16:24:42 found it 16:24:45 Vorpal: no 16:24:46 sheepshaver 16:24:58 um no clue if that works 16:25:05 well it's not my fault it's compiling 16:25:10 should 16:25:10 have you got video on segfault enabled 16:25:11 like the default? 16:25:13 it symlinks it 16:25:22 alise, I have it on yes 16:25:48 ok, there is no possible way this works on your system and not mine 16:25:49 alise, check siginfo stuff in configure output 16:25:51 near the end iirc 16:25:53 see what that ways 16:25:57 says* 16:26:15 alise, looking at the preprocessor logic it should be relevant for this 16:27:02 alise, hm it works without that patch too for me 16:27:24 alise, maybe configure is missing to check for something properly 16:27:46 Bad memory access recovery type .. : 16:27:48 that's not reassuring 16:28:00 since that's what sigsegv.cpp is all about 16:28:02 alise, was that from configure? 16:28:05 yes 16:28:19 checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler... no 16:28:28 so why is it doing this 16:28:44 answer: it can't think of a good recovery type 16:28:45 i think 16:28:48 configure:9849: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler 16:28:48 configure:9875: g++ -o conftest -pipe -O1 -march=native -ggdb3 -I/usr/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -Wl,-O1,--as-needed conftest.cpp -lrt -lpthread -l 16:28:48 m -L/usr/lib -lSDL -lesd >&5 16:28:48 configure:9875: $? = 0 16:28:48 configure:9875: ./conftest 16:28:50 configure:9875: $? = 0 16:28:52 configure:9893: result: yes 16:29:07 I get same result for non-SDL build though 16:29:08 configure:9826: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler 16:29:08 configure:9852: clang -o conftest -pipe -O3 conftest.cpp -lpthread -lm -l 16:29:09 SM -lICE -lX11 -lXext -lXxf86dga -lXxf86vm -lesd >&5 16:29:13 [the same errors from the actual c file] 16:29:25 alise, it errors there? 16:29:34 hm 16:29:36 alise, try with gcc 16:29:41 just to see if that works 16:29:44 patch -p3 <(curl http://sprunge.us/JGEf) ;; skillz 16:29:49 Vorpal: i think i may be able to fix the problem 16:30:33 alise, well I don't need the patch it turned out. 16:30:36 I checked 16:31:04 configure:9826: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler 16:31:04 configure:9852: clang -o conftest -pipe -O3 conftest.cpp -lpthread -lm -l 16:31:04 SM -lICE -lX11 -lXext -lXxf86dga -lXxf86vm -lesd >&5 16:31:04 In file included from conftest.cpp:94: 16:31:04 ./sigsegv.cpp:2592:31: error: use of undeclared identifier 'SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRES 16:31:05 S'; did you mean 'SIGSEGV_INVALID_ADDRESS'? 16:31:06 SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST; 16:31:08 ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 16:31:10 ./sigsegv.cpp:2481:37: note: instantiated from: 16:31:12 #define SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS 16:31:14 ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 16:31:16 sigghhh 16:31:21 ./sigsegv.cpp:2614:32: error: use of undeclared identifier 'SIGSEGV_REGISTER_FIL 16:31:22 E' 16:31:22 if (SIGSEGV_SKIP_INSTRUCTION(SIGSEGV_REGISTER_FILE)) { 16:31:25 this too 16:31:27 what 16:32:11 god knows 16:32:34 alise, SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS is defined in the sigsegv.h file 16:32:44 yes it is 16:32:49 but in an if 16:32:49 i bet 16:33:09 yes on __apple__ ??? 16:33:22 brb 16:33:26 Vorpal: when you run configure 16:33:34 Bad memory access recovery type .. : 16:33:35 what is this line 16:33:38 ? 16:38:31 back 16:38:34 alise, will check 16:39:27 Bad memory access recovery type .. : siginfo 16:39:28 alise, ^ 16:39:58 alise, btw you need to do this as root before you can run sheepshaver (once you managed to compile it): 16:40:11 echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr 16:40:15 yes that is right 16:40:22 it needs to be able to mmap page 0 to run 16:40:35 Vorpal: ok, so i need to install siginfo? 16:40:41 alise, I don't know. 16:40:45 i can find no such package 16:40:55 alise, well, try this with gcc 16:40:58 see if that works 16:41:07 in a minute, sure 16:41:39 alise, I will speak to you again after you either solved it or tried with gcc 16:43:07 Vorpal: ducks 16:44:11 well ducks is a different topic than sheepshaver, so okay, I can discuss that species of birds if you like. 16:44:17 Not that I have much to add to it 16:47:08 Vorpal: fun fact: if you do a quick swap of lolcode's keywords with more conventional things, it becomes a regular programming language 16:47:20 I know 16:47:26 with some strangeness; for instance, a conditional is "bool / if / then / ... / else / ... / endif" 16:47:32 Vorpal: oh, but in a much stronger sense than merely resemblance 16:47:35 alise, some notes that might help though: siginfo seems related to sigaction(), which afaik is POSIX and handled in libc 16:47:42 I can literally imagine this being released as a real programming language 16:47:47 I would suspect clang is indeed the issue there 16:47:58 tmpServer == "OK" 16:47:58 if 16:47:58 then 16:47:58 plainText!!append srvr 16:48:05 gotta be a nicer keyword for if there, it seems really weird 16:48:18 why do if and then have to be separate keywords 16:48:26 BOTH SAEM tmpServer AN "OK" 16:48:26 O RLY? 16:48:26 YA RLY 16:48:26 plainText!!append WIF srvr 16:48:27 unless they can occur separated? 16:48:33 because that's how lolcode has it 16:48:42 key phrases 16:48:43 perhaps check / ifso are the closest to those 16:49:04 or perhaps check / iftrue / iffalse 16:49:07 alise, oh and check the result of the "whether your system supports extended signal handlers" test 16:49:13 that is where it detects siginfo I think 16:49:25 checking whether your system supports extended signal handlers... no 16:49:29 alise, says yes here 16:49:42 alise, and as far as I know it is libc, not compiler implemented 16:49:57 alise, so check config.log for details on that test 16:50:04 http://pastie.org/1122599.txt?key=0drwzd3rf6teud4qg8akuw ;; this is LOLCode, with a simple substitution 16:50:21 java? 16:50:27 yeah it uses java classes 16:50:30 um 16:50:32 it's run in "Java LOLCode" 16:50:44 alise, are all implementations using that? 16:50:45 implementation-specific of course 16:50:47 ah 16:50:50 no 16:50:56 but lolcode impls are a bit wildly varying anyway 16:51:13 alise, apart from stdio iirc? 16:51:18 prolly 16:51:19 there is a spec 16:51:22 dunno if anyone follows it 16:51:25 begin 16:51:27 use stdio 16:51:29 print "HAI WORLD!" 16:51:30 end 16:51:32 -- hello world 16:51:41 alise, what is the !! notation you used 16:51:49 that's !! in the original 16:51:53 presumably java-lolcode specific 16:51:55 and what does it mean? 16:51:57 ah 16:51:59 . in java 16:52:09 foo!!bar xyz == foo.bar(xyz) 16:52:14 right 16:52:18 foo!!bar WIF xyz in the original 16:53:18 alise, your code is however an improvement compared to java for most part 16:53:21 XD 16:53:27 http://lolcode.com/keywords/iz a more conventional if statement 16:53:29 Vorpal: yeah :P 16:53:48 The traditional if/then construct is a very simple construct operating on the implicit IT variable. In the base form, there are four keywords: O RLY?, YA RLY, NO WAI, and OIC. 16:53:50 ok, never mind 16:53:51 -- 1.2 spec 16:54:00 O RLY? branches to the block begun with YA RLY if IT can be cast to WIN, and branches to the NO WAI block if IT is FAIL. The code block introduced with YA RLY is implicitly closed when NO WAI is reached. The NO WAI block is closed with OIC. The general form is then as follows: 16:54:07 alise, the !! notation I find is not very good but apart that, and some other small details, quite nice compared to java 16:54:23 BOTH SAEM ANIMAL AN "CAT", O RLY? 16:54:23 YA RLY, VISIBLE "J00 HAV A CAT" 16:54:23 NO WAI, VISIBLE "J00 SUX" 16:54:23 OIC 16:54:24 ah, that is valid 16:54:34 so you could say 16:54:38 tmpServer == "OK", check 16:54:39 iftrue 16:54:39 plainText!!append srvr 16:54:39 plainText!!append " | OK\r\n" 16:54:39 ... 16:54:55 BOTH SAEM ANIMAL AN "CAT" 16:54:55 O RLY? 16:54:55 YA RLY, VISIBLE "J00 HAV A CAT" 16:54:55 MEBBE BOTH SAEM ANIMAL AN "MAUS" 16:54:55 VISIBLE "NOM NOM NOM. I EATED IT." 16:54:56 OIC 16:55:00 animal == "CAT" 16:55:01 check 16:55:06 iftrue, print "J00 HAV A CAT" 16:55:06 alise, any luck with sheepshaver? 16:55:13 I find lolcode utterly boring 16:55:16 ifelse animal == "MAUS" 16:55:20 print "NOM NOM NOM. I EATED IT." 16:55:22 endcheck 16:55:24 Vorpal: of course it is 16:55:30 but it's hilarious just how unesoteric it is 16:55:34 indeed 16:55:38 they've managed to produce something almost identical to a regular language 16:55:51 alise, so did you try with gcc yet? 16:55:59 alise, or even check that thing in config.log? 16:56:12 im gonna try with gcc now 16:56:50 checking whether your system supports extended signal handlers... yes 16:56:50 checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler... yes 16:56:50 hm 16:57:43 alise, then I suggest you either check what the error is for clang in config.log, or just use gcc :P 16:57:53 no clang is awesome 16:57:56 I strongly doubt clang will manage the jit 16:58:16 RACIST 16:58:44 alise, sure it is nice, but I'm not that interested in spending time on trying to port a most likely very GCC specific JIT to clang 16:58:51 bah fine 16:58:59 alise, of course you can do it if you want 16:59:09 the error might be trivial to fix 16:59:14 or it might be impossible 16:59:26 well not impossible 16:59:27 http://lolcode.com/specs/1.2 wow it's so formal 16:59:35 but it might need a huge rewrite 16:59:43 alise, any BNF? 16:59:52 no, but... 16:59:56 the language is terribly formal in it 17:00:00 for lolcode 17:00:30 All LOLCODE programs must be opened with the command HAI. HAI should then be followed with the current LOLCODE language version number (1.2, in this case). There is no current standard behavior for implementations to treat the version number, though. 17:00:36 ah so that's better translated as "lolcode N", not "begin N" 17:00:50 alise, so did you look at config.log for clang? 17:00:54 yeah 17:00:56 just the same errors 17:01:04 alise, for that siginfo test? 17:01:06 SheepShaver compiles now anyhoo 17:01:10 as opposed to the other ones 17:01:18 "Zap PRAM file" lol 17:01:35 alise, makes perfect sense to me, but where does it say that? 17:01:40 menus 17:01:56 zapping PRAM is funny because it was incredibly common advice back in the day and almost always did nothing helpful 17:02:04 "I have a problem with--" "Zap your PRAM." 17:02:16 alise, okay so then you need a ROM, a install cd iso (or *.toast, iirc sheepshaver can use *.toast images) 17:02:25 those I can't help you with 17:02:29 CD? seriously? for system 7? 17:02:51 alise, well I had a PPC performa with system 7.5 17:02:56 it came with the system on a cd 17:03:05 alise, 68k probably didn't 17:03:15 true 17:03:21 The colon may also introduce more verbose escapes enclosed within some form of bracket. 17:03:21 :() resolves the hex number into the corresponding Unicode code point. 17:03:21 :{} interpolates the current value of the enclosed variable, cast as a string. 17:03:21 :[] resolves the in capital letters to the corresponding Unicode normative name. 17:03:53 alise, and anyway, getting hold of the rom takes a bit of work 17:05:08 alise, that looks like it is designed for ease of parsing rather than ease of use 17:05:26 Operators that work on specific types implicitly cast parameter values of other types. If the value cannot be safely cast, then it results in an error. 17:05:26 An expression's value may be explicitly cast with the binary MAEK operator. 17:05:26 MAEK [A] 17:05:26 Where is one of TROOF, YARN, NUMBR, NUMBAR, or NOOB. This is only for local casting: only the resultant value is cast, not the underlying variable(s), if any. 17:05:29 this is ridiculous 17:05:52 Vorpal: sdl compiles for me, how do i produce an error? 17:06:04 alise, by running it and then moving the mouse about 17:06:10 i see. 17:06:13 i sort of lack the files to do that 17:06:16 alise, right 17:06:53 I'll be back in a few minutes 17:10:51 What's this "the rom" that takes a bit of work? 17:11:55 mac rom thing 17:12:08 both 68k and ppc ones takes a bit of work to find 17:12:18 "A bit of work" they're right there at oldos.org. 17:12:31 with the 68k you can trivially get the ppc one thanks to being able to extract it from an update 17:12:32 Well, at least the Quadra 650 ROM I used last time. 17:12:45 fizzie, right, that works for basiliskII, not sheepshaver 17:12:48 don't suppose anyone has a system 7 disc? 17:12:57 alise, no, I sold that performa years ago 17:13:36 alise, check macintoshgarden though 17:13:40 they have lots of old software 17:13:43 or links to it 17:13:45 at least 17:13:51 "abandonware" hahahahaha 17:14:00 alise, quite a bit of it is, not all is though 17:14:05 no, abandonware is bullshit 17:14:10 legally meaningless 17:14:22 *shrug* I don't run it 17:14:24 "this thing is old and not sold any more, therefore I can publish it for free" has never been true 17:14:35 Hm? The instructions I adapted last time -- http://wiki.oldos.org/Mac/PPCEmulator -- set up SheepShaver (with OS 7.5.5) with that particular ROM. 17:16:10 Haven't tried this for a while, though. 17:16:21 http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-76-mac-os-76 17:16:22 hey ho 17:16:27 Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs 17:16:28 lol 17:16:48 alise, yes, check comments for alt downloads 17:16:54 sometimes that exists 17:17:02 Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs 17:17:03 erm 17:17:06 Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs 17:17:07 erm 17:17:11 Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs wtf 17:17:18 "Copy Text" is grayed out in the menu how bizarre 17:17:20 there are System 7, Mac OS 8 and 9 installs there (and a lot of good programs) 17:17:21 anyway 17:17:25 so i'll try that link 17:18:15 alise, I got 9 from a certain bay ages ago (due to my physical cd being damaged :/) 17:18:15 Mac OS 7.6 Install.sit 17:18:15 woot 17:18:40 alise, oooh this looks like a "open the box with the crowbar found inside" issue 17:18:41 XD 17:18:52 i'm sure i can unpack sits on linux :P 17:18:59 configure: WARNING: Sorry, no suitable addressing mode in direct 17:18:59 configure: error: Sorry, the JIT Compiler requires Direct Addressing, at least 17:19:00 sniff 17:19:00 alise, only old old sit 17:19:11 its 7.6 17:19:13 it probably is old old sit 17:19:19 alise, eh 17:19:23 what is that about direct 17:19:27 You can unpack very *very* few sit files on Linux; the tools are horribel. 17:19:31 sheepshaver requires "real" 17:19:41 basiliskII requires "direct" or "real" 17:19:41 i was trying to enable jit compiler in basilisk 17:19:47 alise, works for me 17:19:49 in it 17:19:57 what's the patch you need? 17:20:11 alise, none? 17:20:14 alise, well actually 17:20:20 alise, I needed to fix configure.ac 17:20:26 configure: WARNING: Sorry, no suitable addressing mode in real 17:20:26 configure: error: Sorry, the JIT Compiler requires Direct Addressing, at least 17:20:27 alise, it is broken 17:20:36 alise, read the first 5 lines or so 17:20:43 it will claim GCC doesn't support C89 17:20:50 and that stdlib.h is broken 17:20:57 not here 17:20:57 reality: configure.ac needs manual patching 17:21:06 oh hm 17:21:09 so what do i have to do 17:21:13 sec 17:22:11 alise, right near the top of configure.ac, after the AC_CONFIG_HEADER line 17:22:13 add this line: 17:22:14 AC_USE_SYSTEM_EXTENSIONS 17:22:26 thanks 17:22:27 alise, then rerun autogen.sh 17:23:33 alise, that JIT can make OS 7 load so fast you only see a flicker for the extensions 17:23:43 alise, on the other hand it breaks some old games I play in it 17:24:11 and even without the JIT stuff is faster than any "real" System 7 system that I used 17:24:19 it can't use either addressing mode for me, so yeah 17:24:23 no JIT it is 17:24:38 alise, how very strange... what distro? 17:24:45 arch linux 64 17:25:03 hm 17:25:11 alise, could be related. Not sure 17:25:19 Crazy Language Idea: "employees.each { print employee.name }"; that is, the implicit argument name to closures passed to iterators is the singular of the collection name. 17:25:26 bbl food 17:25:28 people.each { print person.age } 17:25:47 Addressing mode ........................ : direct 17:25:48 what how can that be 17:27:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:27:46 ah i have jit enabled 17:28:46 * Sgeo decides to attempt to endure Pidgin again 17:28:55 hm wasn't quite ready 17:29:04 Sgeo, alise had some stuff in the lo 17:29:05 log* 17:29:08 replies to what you said 17:29:13 wrt netbook/laptop 17:29:13 ty 17:31:17 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:32:08 Gwenolé Beauchesne is maintaining a version of Basilisk II with a dynamically recompiling 680x0 emulation. 17:32:09 coool 17:32:42 680x0? 17:33:18 alise, that is the one you are using afaik? 17:33:46 alise, or something based on it 17:34:14 Sgeo, you might know it as 68k 17:34:53 alise, the link in question is dead 17:34:57 Whoa, BasiliskII's startup in JIT-mode is indeed the fast. 17:35:09 fizzie, even more so with these settings: 17:35:28 compile FPU 17:35:34 cache: 16384 17:35:41 enable lazy invalidation 17:35:54 fizzie, that is the fastest one, the "constant jump" one slowed it down for me 17:35:56 Compile FPU and lazy invalidation were (at least here) checked by default; cache was 8192, though. 17:36:06 fizzie, hm, they were unchecked here 17:36:28 fizzie, however it breaks on some old apps 17:36:53 fizzie, it starts faster than any real mac ever did even without JIT, so not really an issue 17:37:10 fizzie, like 2 seconds with jit disabled 17:37:20 a fraction of a second with it enabled 17:40:10 -!- nooga has joined. 17:46:33 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:54:53 -!- cheater00 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:55:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:55:07 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:55:10 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:55:29 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:57:14 back from eating 17:57:24 alise, any luck with getting stuff running? 17:59:45 -!- relet has joined. 18:00:40 strings quadra650.rom, selected snippets: 18:00:42 Life Is Good 18:00:42 Life Is Good 18:00:42 Life Is Good 18:00:43 [...] 18:03:09 Inspired by the topic, I dug out the original iBook installation discs and dumped "Classic Support" in again. 18:04:03 OS 9.2, and all kinds of useful things, like Netscape Communicator, and IE 5.0. 18:05:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:05:11 fizzie, heh 18:05:22 fizzie, IE 5 was quite good, for it's time 18:05:35 -!- cheater99 has joined. 18:05:44 far better than IE6 even 18:06:55 It has a "Mac OS ROM" image in it too, but I don't suppose it works in SheepShaver. (Still, nice that it starts with some Forth code.) 18:07:14 it does? huh 18:07:20 fizzie, then I think it might 18:07:30 it sounds like openfirmware stuff 18:07:42 Well, it starts with , and there's a made of Forth. 18:08:11 It *looks* like a newworld ROM, but SheepShaver said "segfault" when I told it to use it. Of course it might've segfaulted on something completely difererent. 18:08:41 Maybe I should attempt to learn Forth 18:08:53 * Sgeo wonders how many languages he knows, and how many he's forgotten 18:09:07 Hmm, the forgotten list arguably includes Perl and COBOL 18:09:18 Although I still remember some bits of COBOL 18:11:36 http://p.zem.fi/grkg -- weird place to crash, on the opening { of SCSIInit. It seems as if something has overwritten the function with zeroes. 18:11:57 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:13:02 fizzie, hahaha 18:13:07 fizzie, it hasn't crashed 18:13:24 fizzie, same way that jitfunge getting sigsegv didn't crash :P 18:13:32 fizzie, to run it under gdb you need: 18:13:40 handle SIGSEGV nostop noprint 18:13:40 handle SIG40 nostop noprint 18:13:40 handle SIG41 nostop noprint 18:13:41 those 18:14:40 Hmm'k; but it does crash in the sense that the process dies with segfault. 18:16:05 fizzie, thats strange 18:16:12 fizzie, what ROM are you using? 18:16:18 not the same as for basilisk I hope? 18:16:28 "ERROR: Unsupported ROM type." -- aw. (Disabled the JIT thing.) 18:16:50 fizzie, well if you have basilisk working you can trivially get one for sheepshaver 18:16:52 Oh, I was just trying out that iBook "Classic support" ROM. I didn't really expect it'd work. 18:17:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:17:24 fizzie, by getting 68k tomeviewer (available for free from various places) + one update from apple 18:17:32 and then extract the rom from that update 18:17:34 Yep, I saw that in the interwebs somewhere. 18:17:36 google for details 18:17:54 What's the deal with the addressing modes, by the way? With --enable-addressing=direct it dies to the segfault; without, it gives that "Unsupported ROM type" message. 18:19:29 fizzie, um I don't know about that 18:19:44 fizzie, but it needs to be = real for sheepshaver 18:20:08 fizzie, for = real to work you need to do that "allow mmap of page 0" thing I mentioned above 18:20:20 Yes, I noticed that. 18:20:30 fizzie, ppc without jit is unusably slow 18:20:33 even on a core 2 duo 18:20:41 that is for OS 9 18:20:44 never tried 7 18:21:16 For PPC System pre-8.5 I'd need an oldworld rom, anyway. 18:21:23 hm 18:21:32 fizzie, I don't have that. What I have is the "update from apple" one 18:25:56 Interesting. "The document "TomeViewer 1.3d3" could not be opened, because the application program that created it could not be found. Could not find a translation extension with appropriate translators." (And this was supposed to be a 68k version especially for the rom-extraction with Basilisk II.) 18:26:34 fizzie, um... 18:26:43 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:26:53 fizzie, file damaged? 18:27:08 fizzie, did you unpack it in a way as to preserve the resource fork? 18:27:31 fizzie, a ppc executable that is valid won't give you that error on 68k 18:27:52 I guess it could be. It was a .sit, extracted it with the Stuffit Expander 5.5 that I have inside BasiliskII, and it didn't complain. (Not that I know if there's any checksums in .sit files.) 18:28:16 fizzie, hm... do you have disk copy in there? 18:28:26 if so I could send you a *.img.hqx 18:29:19 fizzie, sit alone won't do it 18:29:32 fizzie, iirc you need to *.bin or *.hqx it 18:29:36 to make it safe to transfer 18:30:05 Possibly, it's just that I only see it as plain .sit file. I would think StuffIt would complain if the .sit isn't whole, but who knoes. 18:30:27 fizzie, so. do you have disk copy or not? 18:31:01 Yes, but using it sounds like giving up; I'm going to extract that thing out of the .sit no matter what. :p 18:31:08 oh well 18:36:06 -!- Atomix has joined. 18:36:18 Hello 18:36:22 hi 18:36:50 I saw channel on the list, I wondered - what are you discussing here? 18:37:51 Atomix, esoteric programming languages 18:38:25 such as brainf*ck, INTERCAL, befunge and so on. see also our wiki at esolangs.org/wiki 18:38:31 -!- Gregor has joined. 18:38:41 whats the purpose of these languages? 18:38:41 Atomix, do you know what a programming language is? It's a language that humans can write and read (usually) that contain instructions for computers 18:38:50 I know javascript 18:38:53 An esoteric programming language is one that's not intended for mainstream use 18:38:53 Atomix, fun and recreation I guess 18:38:58 i have made several applications 18:39:03 Maybe to see if some weird thing can be done 18:39:13 like what? 18:39:13 There's one language deliberately made to be difficult to write in 18:39:14 fizzie, anyway if you want that file it will be at http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/TomeViewer.img.hqx until tomorrow 18:39:36 Sgeo, one? malbolge? intercal? 18:39:44 I was thinking of Malbolge 18:39:46 Vorpal: Craziest things ever. I added a bit more memory (8 → 64) to the BasiliskII (so that it can run iCab -- was thinking of maybe downloading it directly there), and for some reason now extracting tomeviewer.sit worked. Or at least the file now has a proper icon. 18:40:06 fizzie, I'm not *that* surprised in fact. 18:40:18 so can you give me some nice example where you have used esolang ? 18:40:20 fizzie, there is some strangeness with downloading non-hqxed dual fork files 18:40:21 a link or smt 18:40:33 Atomix, sane people don't use esolangs for productive products 18:40:41 They're just for fun 18:40:48 thats what i mean 18:40:51 fizzie, will remove that file I uploaded then 18:40:53 Vorpal: Yes, but this was the very same .sit file I extracted; I didn't download it with iCab. The only thing I changed was the memory. 18:41:01 Atomix, the bot fungot in here is coded in one 18:41:02 Vorpal: all right? 18:41:03 ^source 18:41:04 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 18:41:42 fizzie, why so little ram for it? I have like 512 MB assigned to it iirc 18:42:11 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:42:25 GNIF? 18:42:26 trQ\WATESYCFIUBHNOJPMK'L 18:42:26 ]O#KJI'HU;PYGTIRESZYWAT\RSTyezrtivugphojk 18:42:28 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:42:32 -!- alise has joined. 18:42:38 Sgeo, FING yes, what about it 18:42:47 Vorpal: I didn't have my old config file in ~, so it had defaulted to 8M. 18:42:53 fizzie, ah 18:42:54 Vorpal, I assume it's a ... thingy of some sort 18:42:58 fingerprint 18:43:04 thingamabober 18:43:22 FING, SOCK and FILE are all fingerprints 18:43:28 (same goes for whatever other ones it uses) 18:43:44 Sgeo, FING is however for reassigning the assignment of letters for fingerprints 18:43:52 such that you move an instruction from C to S or whatever 18:44:02 Sgeo, useful when multiple fingerprints collide 18:44:02 Ah 18:44:04 hmm I took a look at the source you gave me - ive never seen any esolangs before. So what is the whole purpose of creating these languages, where does the fun come in? 18:45:05 Vorpal: Anyway, the tomeviewer-extracted rom worked; don't have an operating system handy, though. IIRC they did something to the OS 9.2 included in OS X's "classic support" so that it couldn't be run on "real" (or emulated) macs, only within OS X's Classic. Will have to wonder about that later. 18:45:06 Atomix, I guess that is hard to explain if you don't get it. Some people (like we) just find inventing, coding in or implementing such languages fun 18:45:23 (Sauna-time now.) 18:45:27 but why 18:45:27 Atomix, why does someone who find skiing fun find it fun 18:45:34 I don't know the answer 18:45:51 Vorpal: Craziest things ever. I added a bit more memory (8 → 64) to the BasiliskII (so that it can run iCab -- was thinking of maybe downloading it directly there), and for some reason now extracting tomeviewer.sit worked. Or at least the file now has a proper icon. ;; icab yay! 18:46:14 alise, isn't icab shareware? I seem to remember it refused to run after x days 18:46:20 fizzie: twungot? 18:46:38 Vorpal: it's free now at least i think 18:46:49 oh, twitter fungot 18:46:49 alise: the president of shinra soldiers around here. better get some tea! 18:46:54 you're rewriting it in forth? XD 18:46:55 Personally, I don't particularly enjoy coding in esolangs, but do enjoy thinking about them, and if I ever get the courage, maybe making one at some point 18:47:06 alise, what? 18:47:11 i was talking to fizzie 18:47:20 Vorpal: what's that /sys thing i need to echo again? 18:47:22 alise, yes but where did he say he was doing that 18:47:25 is it required for basilisk ii? 18:47:27 Vorpal: his git repo 18:47:40 alise, echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/mmap 18:47:43 where tab is literal one 18:47:45 -!- cheater99 has joined. 18:47:48 there is just one completion 18:47:55 alise, I don't remember the exact name 18:47:55 does basilisk II need it or just SS? 18:48:02 alise, SS 18:48:04 Yes, twitter fungot. 18:48:05 fizzie: an' for marlene......! 18:48:11 alise, or basiliskII in *real* addressing mode 18:48:15 as opposed to direct 18:48:18 I think it's in real. Not sure. 18:48:24 alise, well try it 18:48:31 alise, it won't boot if it needs it 18:48:36 yeah 18:48:41 What is the meaning of life? 18:48:50 Atomix: not 42, that's the answer to life, the universe and everything 18:48:52 not the meaning of life 18:48:56 Atomix, no idea, but if you generalise that question it is 42 18:49:02 alise, oh snap 18:49:03 Vorpal: oh goody, you can specify options on the command line 18:49:06 or a config file 18:49:12 you don't appear to be able to save config from the GUI though 18:49:14 alise, config file is better probably 18:49:14 just from CLI 18:49:17 alise, um 18:49:21 you can config from gui 18:49:24 yes 18:49:26 but it doesn't persist 18:49:28 alise, sure you have gtk -dev packages installed? 18:49:31 alise, whaat? 18:49:31 so you have to do: 18:49:33 --config FILE 18:49:33 read/write configuration from/to FILE 18:49:35 Thats not correct, 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life 18:49:35 alise, oh it needs to start 18:49:37 before 18:49:39 Atomix: no it isn't 18:49:41 read the books 18:49:44 Vorpal: oh. 18:49:46 but what is the ultimate question of life? 18:49:46 alise, if you close it right away it won't persist iirc 18:49:50 Vorpal: where does it save? 18:49:57 alise, somewhere in ~ 18:50:00 can't check right now 18:50:10 Atomix: Mu; the question is "what is the question [that is answered by the answer to life, the universe, and everything]?" 18:50:29 WHAT DO YOU GET WHEN YOU MULTIPLY SIX BY NINE 18:50:36 Sgeo: Wrong. 18:50:38 Probably. 18:50:42 ~/.basilisk_ii_prefs is what it created here. 18:50:48 he aint wrong, but anyone can read that on wiki 18:50:51 im asking your opinion 18:50:56 I'm not sure if there was a "multiply" in there 18:50:59 Arthur is not one of the Earth natives, so although he contains part of its program, he cannot execute it perfectly. 18:51:13 It is most likely "What do you get when you multiply six by seven?". 18:51:31 Of course the literal interpretation is played out in the book. 18:51:37 *the universe ends and is replaced by something even stranger* 18:51:46 or has happened already 18:51:55 but you are missing my point 18:51:56 Doesn't mean it can't happen twice. 18:52:06 I aint talking about the book, as i said 18:52:08 Atomix: If you're actually asking what I think the meaning of life is, I think it has no meaning. 18:52:09 im asking your opinion 18:52:15 Ah 18:52:20 For "meaning of life?" 18:52:24 yes 18:52:29 Of course it's "worth" doing some things, but that's not because of any inherent meaning to life. 18:52:35 It just sort of happens. 18:52:42 what happens? 18:52:47 I don't think there is an extrinsically assigned meaning. If we want a meaning of life, we have to make a meaning ourselves 18:52:49 Well. Time. 18:53:01 And the universe ends up changing. Some life is involved in all that big mix-up. 18:53:06 Nothing particular. 18:53:12 so you are saying we have to make our brains think that there is a purpose to life, even though in reality there isnt one? 18:53:28 I disagree with that. 18:53:35 * Sgeo isn't sure how religious stuff entered this discussion 18:53:38 I think we have the power to decide what meaning our own life has, as it is our own. 18:53:54 We don't )have_ to make our brains think there is a purpose to life, unless we want a purpose to life 18:54:03 Life, itself, I think we must accept has no meaning. But I don't think that's a negative thing; that's a very human-centric view of things, that having no inherent meaning is a bad thing. 18:54:04 thats the same as convicing ourselves of somekind of purpose 18:54:10 No. Not really. 18:54:17 It's merely deciding a subjective set of values which we strive for. 18:54:25 exactly 18:54:42 so what happens when you run of those values? 18:54:46 What? 18:54:53 you commit suicide? 18:54:56 so what happens when you run of those values? 18:55:01 Please restate this in a comprehensible manner. 18:55:04 I'm not sure what you are trying to say. 18:55:12 I think Atomix is asking what happens when you complete your self-assigned purpose 18:55:26 you stated yourself, that we decide on a subjective set of values to strive for 18:55:31 Yes. 18:55:32 And? 18:55:37 and I asked 18:55:42 what happens when you run out of them 18:55:45 Choose another purpose? Choose a purpose that won't run out? Live without a purpose other than having fun? 18:55:48 when you have no more values 18:55:52 Atomix: Meaningless question. 18:55:58 one might think so 18:56:05 An example set of values may be utilitarianism: maximise the happiness of all sentient beings. 18:56:10 There is no way to "run out" of utilitarianism. 18:56:18 I had the values 3, 7 and 12. 18:56:22 I used all of them. 18:56:24 I am now out of values. 18:56:45 but the theory is missing its purpose - sooner or later one will ask himself/herself why to do such a thing? (as you said, maximise the happiness of all sentient beings) 18:56:47 Atomix: but really I think this is sort of a philosophical tar pit 18:57:00 we're trying to give meanings to questions that we've decided have no meaning just because we feel a need to answer them 18:57:06 that's pointless. 18:57:16 Atomix: Why? Because it's arbitrary. 18:57:26 Yes, it cannot be justified in the end, just like axioms in a logical system can't be justified. 18:57:40 But I think you can reject "kill everyone" for the same reasons you can reject "A and not A". 18:58:10 That assumes that there's some objective way to order values 18:58:20 Nothing I said does. 18:58:42 http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/ ;; anyone know how to change these into one disk image? 18:58:49 or should i not bother? 18:58:51 alise, what is that YOU strive for in your life? 18:59:10 Atomix: An arbitrary, hodge-podge set of basically inconsistent values. Like all humans. 18:59:30 be more specific 18:59:34 I mess around, I occasionally do productive stuff, I try to be nice to people who are nice and not stupid... 18:59:42 But I don't consciously analyse my every action. 18:59:47 If you do, you probably need to relax a bit. 19:01:07 fizzie: where's the ROM on oldos? 19:01:48 found it 19:01:55 I think. 19:02:16 Random H2G2 thought: 19:02:24 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:02:42 The psychiatrists obviously knew the truth about Earth; that's why they destroyed it. 19:03:01 But then surely they would have known about the Golgafrinchian contamination? 19:03:05 I could swear I've seen that hypothesis somewh.. oh 19:03:40 Attempting to find consistency in H2G2: one of the most laughable activities in the galaxy. 19:03:44 * Sgeo 's memory comes back to him 19:03:55 alise, but this is #esoteric! 19:04:00 No task is too laughable! 19:04:14 We can solve the halting problem! 19:04:48 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:04:58 Sgeo, YES WE CAN! 19:05:24 fizzie: you can just dd some zeroes to a file and use that as the disk, right? 19:05:29 and let the installer format it 19:06:08 * Sgeo once tried to disprove God by wondering if Chaitin's constant was not just uncomputable, but unknowable 19:06:44 you can't disprove god 19:06:47 it's stupid to try 19:06:57 Sgeo: it's not unknowable i don't think 19:07:01 people have computed the first digits for some languages 19:07:12 just like the BB function is uncomputable 19:07:15 but you can work it out manually 19:07:31 I had a bit of a mistaken idea regarding turing machines and interactions with input 19:08:04 for instance the first four bits of the halting probability of either binary lambda calculus or binary combinator logic (I forget which) are .0001 19:08:24 alise, BB function? 19:08:29 so the probability that a random program in those halts is >= 0.0625 19:08:33 Phantom_Hoover: busy beaver 19:10:00 Caught SIGSEGV at address 0x7fac25b6a708 [IP=0x7fac284109e3] 19:10:40 fun fun 19:12:25 * Sgeo earpains 19:14:23 Sgeo, at a written segfault? 19:14:23 ? 19:14:28 Your ears are weird. 19:18:52 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:19:40 thing = string | list of (thing | (string, thing)) 19:20:23 That looks too much like OCaml except for the "of" 19:20:31 The halting problem is at \Delta^0_2 in the arithmetical hierarchy. 19:20:33 Or wait, is "of" part of OCaml types? 19:20:41 ...What's in the higher numbers? 19:20:52 Phantom_Hoover: Death and pain. 19:21:08 Things Man Was Not Meant To Know. 19:21:56 Igors didn't believe in Things Man Was Not Meant To Know 19:22:22 But Igor firmly believed that there were some things a man was not meant to know, such as what it felt like to have every ... 19:22:25 I forgot the rest 19:23:00 Sgeo, someone's quoted that at me before. 19:23:11 (I've read it too, naturally) 19:23:32 I think it was after the Life self-replicator was built. 19:24:11 There's a Life self-replicator? 19:24:15 (j/k, I remember) 19:25:19 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what alise thinks of Linux Mint 19:25:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:25:36 Sgeo: "pointless", basically 19:25:38 hi ais523 19:25:49 Sgeo, wasn't that stupidised Ubuntu? 19:26:04 A description I never thought I would type.. 19:26:22 how can this startup disk not have disk copy? sheesh 19:26:30 anyone know of any tools to process hfv on linux :) 19:28:06 hi alise 19:28:22 hi 19:28:37 ais523, how does Feather's OO bits work? 19:28:43 uh oh 19:28:50 Phantom_Hoover: Quite well. 19:28:54 there, qusetion deflected 19:28:57 *question 19:28:58 Phantom_Hoover: I haven't decided yet 19:28:59 you owe me one, ais523 19:29:04 I have a vague idea, but it keeps changing 19:29:07 alise: heh 19:29:10 alise, futile. 19:29:26 eventually, Phantom_Hoover will figure out that it's pointless to ask people questions they don't know the answer to 19:29:30 either you'll get "I don't know", or a lie 19:29:34 either way the answer is useless 19:29:46 ais523: preliminary KDE 4.5 review: ok, so I could use it, but why would I want to when I can just use GNOME instead? 19:29:53 Yeah, but I'm trying to work out which bits you don't know. 19:29:54 there's no reason not to 19:29:57 alise: ah, OK 19:30:07 it's not completely broken like it used to be, then? 19:30:22 ais523: indeed so 19:30:31 I remember I used 4.1 for a while because there was something really wrong with GNOME then, but I can't remember what it is 19:30:31 it's just that the little complexities it loves to have make some stuff quite annoying 19:30:42 *what it was 19:30:44 whereas GNOME's more conservative attitude helps here 19:31:07 the Internet seems to have more people who hate Gnome than who hate KDE, for some reason 19:31:24 well, it's polarising. it used to be a bit more opinionated than it is now, i think. 19:31:39 also, more non-control freaks are using linux now 19:31:39 meanwhile, Esolang spam is getting weirder and weirder 19:31:46 whereas you basically had to be a control freak to get it to work in the past 19:31:49 -!- Killerkid has joined. 19:31:51 a spambot went and pasted in a dictionary definition of "trustworthy" 19:31:54 XD 19:32:00 Spammers: very trustworthy. 19:32:11 on two different pages, both of which were spambot names 19:32:26 the summary was "Test post" 19:32:50 * alise modifies a JFS filesystem from Macintosh System Software 7.5.5 19:33:02 I hope it doesn't try and create any resource forks. 19:33:07 ais523, can you salt things? 19:33:16 Phantom_Hoover: yes, and I do occasionally 19:33:35 but it's not worth it unless they're under heavy spambot attack, normally spambots attack a page once then move on 19:33:36 -!- Atomix has left (?). 19:33:49 also, I more commonly semisalt (which allows registered users to make a page, but bars anons) 19:34:10 * alise installs StuffIt Expander onto a Unix filesystem 19:34:15 this will surely work 19:35:10 [ehird@dinky StuffIt Expander� 5.5]$ ls 19:35:10 Icon? Read Us First! StuffIt Expander? 19:35:41 wow, I have 354 log actions on Esolang 19:36:21 what's the log again? bans etc.? 19:36:40 deletions, bans, pagemoves 19:36:54 and something else important I'm forgetting 19:36:55 oh, protections 19:37:06 [ehird@dinky mac]$ dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=1 count=104857600 19:37:11 i have a feeling this could go quicker 19:37:18 "bs=1"? 19:37:32 is there a reason to do it one byte at a time? 19:37:44 yes, i'm too lazy to divide the count 19:37:47 also, why is dd's syntax unlike every other program on Unix? 19:37:49 hi ais523 19:37:53 because it predates unix 19:37:54 hi Vorpal 19:37:59 alise: ah, that makes sense 19:38:16 "is most likely inspired from DD found in IBM JCL, and the command's syntax is meant to be reminiscent of this" 19:38:31 iirc on plan 9 dd has a unixy syntax :P 19:39:43 [ehird@dinky mac]$ dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=8192 count=12800 19:39:43 12800+0 records in 19:39:44 12800+0 records out 19:39:44 104857600 bytes (105 MB) copied, 0.225616 s, 465 MB/s 19:39:46 that's better. 19:40:00 "105 MB" 19:40:14 even if you're going to use metric megabytes, you're rounding upwards, dd 19:40:22 how dishonest of oyu 19:40:29 *you 19:40:39 hmm, I suppose metric megabytes /are/ standard for hard drives... 19:40:41 system 7.6 is mine! mwahahaha 19:41:01 thank god for illegal downloads, eh. 19:41:03 >_> 19:41:15 mac os 7.6 install folder ftw 19:41:46 To duplicate a disk partition as a disk image file on a remote machine over a secure ssh connection: 19:41:46 dd if=/dev/sdb2 | ssh user@host "dd of=/home/user/partition.image" 19:41:48 useless use of dd award 19:41:54 ais523: At least de facto standard. 19:42:07 they're the right standard too, really 19:42:09 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:42:20 binary only makes sense for SSDs where it's actually based on powers of two 19:42:24 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:42:25 decimal is consistent with the rest of the world 19:42:40 The rest of the world sucks. 19:42:43 Screw the rest of the world. 19:43:15 http://imgur.com/2Rana.png 19:43:19 Mac OS 7.6 installer. Discus. 19:43:21 this is why I like the whole MiB syntax even though everyone else seems ot hate it 19:43:23 *to hate it 19:43:29 Or javelin? 19:43:30 it should generalise to non-computer units too, though 19:43:32 ais523: I like it. 19:43:40 ais523: although KiB is wrong; it should be kiB, for SI-consistency. 19:43:51 yes, probably 19:43:55 hey, http://i.imgur.com/2Rana.png has antialiased text 19:43:55 * Sgeo hits alise with a frisbee 19:43:58 a first for the Mac OS? 19:43:58 perhaps we should use kim for distances 19:44:09 alise: is it /good/ antialiasing 19:44:22 I propose a new, AMERICAN unit of measuring data! 19:44:23 ais523: Uhh, it probably looked good on the CRTs of the time. i.imgur.com/2Rana.png 19:44:31 ais523: The font isn't exactly the best on-screen one, anyway. 19:44:41 Too tall and thin, with subtle serifs. 19:44:47 Especially not at /those/ resolutions. 19:44:59 Still, the actual antialiasing is acceptable. 19:45:34 "Please insert the disk: Mac OS 7.6". 19:45:34 Ah. 19:45:42 Disk Copy time! 19:46:07 The lib. There shall be 9 bits to the lib. And 36 libs to the bok. From there, well. Who needs more than a few boks anyways? 19:46:10 what's Markdown's equivalent to MediaWiki's : 19:46:40 ais523: what does that do? 19:46:44 blockquote? 19:46:54
tag, but it's normally used for indenting generally 19:47:03 a blockquote is 19:47:03 > foo 19:47:04 > bar 19:47:05 > baz 19:47:10 hmm, that should probably work 19:47:14 email-style 19:50:49 it doesn't, really 19:50:53 at least not on gitorious 19:50:56 I just won't indent 19:51:11 ais523, IIRC logs also record patrolling, although the MediaWiki used might be too old for that. 19:51:46 it's new enough but has patrolling turned off 19:52:07 it's only really useful on wikis so large that one person can't check all edits/pages themself 19:52:18 whereas on Esolang, multiple people check each edit 19:52:23 -!- wareya has joined. 19:54:52 gah 19:54:55 how do i make this owrk 19:54:55 "Perl is a general purpose language. It's also known to be the only widespread use obfuscated language." 19:54:57 *work 19:55:05 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:58:16 IDENTIFICATION DIVISION. 19:59:17 PROGRAM-ID. SGEOLOVESCOBOL. 20:00:24 ais523: wow, I'm actually installing Gnash 20:00:48 Doesn't Gnash suck, or something? 20:00:52 yep 20:00:56 Time to put drops in my ears 20:05:16 alise: If you're making a zero-image with dd, it's worth a thought to "dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=1 count=0 seek=104857600", to make a sparse file. For a 100-meg image it probaly doesn't much matter, though. 20:05:38 What're you trying to do? 20:06:25 last resort since i can't get youtube working 20:06:27 fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UTZTPCj7xI 20:06:38 what actions are taken in this video to install 7.6.1? :P 20:08:25 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:08:58 Hrrm, that's a six-minute video to summarize. 20:09:28 I think most of it is the actual installation 20:09:31 *installation. 20:09:45 I only care about what I have to click to get the installer to not say "Insert the 7.6 disk, foo" when I run it from another disk. 20:12:27 Well, uh... it starts with "Apple Macintosh CD" on the desktop, then it auto-initializes the HD (I think the system will automatically ask it when your .hfv file is just zeros), after that it just runs the "Install Mac^{TM} OS" thing in the middle of "Apple Macintosh CD". 20:14:04 Oh. 20:14:20 fizzie: So it doesn't run "Installer"? 20:14:38 I don't see an "Installer" there. 20:14:55 So they must have copied the disk images to a disk somehow. But how?! Disk Copy says the .image files are invalid... 20:15:32 Come to think of it, what IS an .image? 20:15:35 http://p.zem.fi/ltr0 -- that's him starting the thing. 20:15:39 Something to be dd'd? 20:16:25 7.5.5 is the only thing I've installed in BasiliskII, so don't know about 7.6's steps. 20:16:38 Install 1\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\20 20:16:41 is how Install 1.image starts. 20:17:26 aha 20:17:31 they're virtual disk image things 20:20:28 -!- Gregor has joined. 20:21:15 dammit 20:21:17 they're separate disks :D 20:21:18 alise, are you installing an old version of Mac OS? 20:22:15 yes 20:22:23 fuck yeah 19 mounted disks 20:22:27 u no im hardcore 20:23:26 To what end‽ 20:24:14 All the cool kids are doing it! I just installed OS 9.2 on the iBook. (If you can call installing OS X's "classic support" with the software recovery thing, that.) 20:24:28 ais523: Uhh, it probably looked good on the CRTs of the time. i.imgur.com/2Rana.png <-- looks pre-rendered compared to the button below 20:24:36 of course it is 20:25:24 it seems that old Mac OS has a limit to the number of mounted disks at one time 20:25:24 fun 20:25:27 either that or basilisk ii does 20:25:31 alise, OS 9 (probably 8 too?) had quite nice grayscale antialias 20:25:34 greyscale* 20:25:43 i think that was new in 9 20:25:47 alise, ah 20:25:56 alise, that is a good reason to prefer 9 over 8 then 20:26:19 alise, btw why were you asking me about sheepshaver? weren't you playing around with it this spring? 20:26:29 or was that OS 9 on real mac? 20:26:47 i had os 8 or 9 on a real mac (I forget which) recently, yes 20:26:53 i tried sheepshaver a long while ago 20:26:59 recently = a year ago or so 20:27:07 Vorpal: gahh this sucks so much 20:27:11 limited mounted things 20:27:37 or wait 20:27:38 wtf 20:27:39 hmm 20:28:44 Vorpal: vMac made this a lot easier ... 20:28:47 you could swap disks at runtime 20:36:04 alise, again, to what end? 20:36:29 Phantom_Hoover: he says, in #esoteric 20:36:51 So just for the lulz? 20:36:53 yep 20:38:23 Grr 20:38:31 Website requires cpalead.com to be fully functional 20:38:33 Grrrrr 20:40:32 Also, I loathe explorer 20:44:21 Mac OS 7.6.toast 250 Mb 20:44:24 Toast? Seriously?! 20:45:06 Guess what it runs on. 20:45:36 pikhq: ? 20:45:39 oh 20:45:39 heh 20:45:50 roxio toast is just a silly old mac burner 20:45:54 useless file format for me though 20:45:59 i need an .iso i think, not sure 20:46:52 Details for file extension: TOAST - Toast CD Image File (Sonic Solutions) - Toast 6 runs on Mac OS X only. This is basically an .ISO file. 20:46:53 oh cool 20:47:11 pikhq: question: is /dev/cdrom the same format as an .iso? 20:47:18 that is, can I supply a foo.iso where ordinarily I would pass /dev/cdrom? 20:47:39 alise: Yes. 20:47:42 woot 20:49:59 -!- alise_ has joined. 20:53:01 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:55:38 Fucking hell... A quarter of high school students drop out of high school in the US. 20:55:46 *High school*. 20:57:04 as opposed to high school students dropping out of middle school 20:57:25 And a quarter of those who don't drop out pass in spite of being high in school. 20:57:40 alise_: The thing is, even a complete idiot can graduate from a US high school. 20:58:13 I got a B average through high school and I did hardly *anything* for much of it. 21:00:09 -!- Flonk has joined. 21:00:34 pikhq, that may just be a sign of genius. 21:01:43 Phantom_Hoover: Correctly answering multiple choice questions is hardly a "sign of genius". 21:04:00 -!- tombom has joined. 21:04:06 ffff 21:04:14 how do you unpack a .sit_.bin in mac os >_> 21:04:30 -!- kitabuki has joined. 21:04:32 oh, like that 21:04:35 hi kitabuki 21:05:44 Vorpal: vMac made this a lot easier ... 21:05:44 you could swap disks at runtime <-- hm 21:06:05 alise_, I think you can have several with basilisk and such 21:06:10 yes, but it's limited 21:06:17 alise_, anyway I managed to install it from a set of floppies from apple 21:06:19 i'm pretty sure 21:06:28 Vorpal: yes, i have a set of floppies (19 + one installer) 21:06:36 unfortunately when i mount them all, my installation disk is not mounted. 21:06:52 alise_, I think I put the floppy images on a hfs partition then mounted them with disk copy? 21:07:07 ahahahaha, unfortunately disk copy doesn't want to mount these. 21:07:11 it says they're BAD AND WRONG AND EVIL 21:07:14 -!- kitabuki has quit (Client Quit). 21:08:12 alise_, mine were *.img I think 21:08:28 alise_, I used 7.5.5 thingy from apple 21:08:36 alise_, not from macintoshgarden 21:08:40 [[SwedeBear I download the file and moved the .zip into Basilisk II and used StuffIt to unzip it, up to that point everything works good. I now have to files: Apple Mac OS 7.6 CD.image and _Apple Mac OS 7.6 CD.image, neither mounts in ShrinkWrap or StuffIt. What do I have to do to make it work inside OS 7.5.5?]] i wish this file was still there sigh 21:08:41 :< 21:09:01 alise_, um what? 21:09:05 nothing 21:09:16 alise_, the _ one is probably a resource fork 21:09:20 shit either doesn't work or is no longer on the net 21:09:21 no 21:09:23 it was a quote from a forum 21:09:26 demonstrating that it has an .image 21:09:28 of the CD 21:09:30 (which is what I need) 21:09:48 alise_, I have an OS 9 CD image. And I think I have the set of floppy images I used somewhere too 21:09:54 There are more seeders now for the Apple Legacy Software Recovery CD torrent, so speeds have probably picked up. 21:09:54 For anyone else interested in getting this without bothering with the torrent, here's a direct download: 21:09:54 http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TF755K5F 21:09:54 yay 21:10:14 Vorpal: 7.6(.1) is all i care about :P 21:10:16 well, apart from system 6 21:10:18 but that's trivially obtained 21:10:31 and still possibly the most usable OS ever released ;) 21:10:47 alise_, OS 9 has very nice AA though :P 21:10:57 *something that expresses the intent of ;) without being the creepy paedophile smiley (that is, ";)") 21:11:31 something i don't like about old Macintosh operating systems is that you have to hold the mouse button down to keep a menu open 21:11:40 I get the whole non-modality thing and all, but it gives me carpal tunnel 21:12:33 alise_, how is ";)" a "creepy paedophile smiley"? 21:12:41 that's what it looks like 21:12:47 anyone saying ;) instantly seems reepy 21:12:47 alise_, you don't have to hold it down in OS 9 21:12:48 *creepy 21:12:48 :P 21:13:03 alise_, no that is a wink with the eye 21:13:07 oh come on, everyone agrees os 9 was the worst classic mac os 21:13:17 i know that ;) is a wink. but it's creepy. to everyone. trust me 21:13:18 alise_, I don't. 21:13:28 alise_, no it isn't. it's just you 21:13:32 Vorpal: that is merely because you are nostalgic and remember it 21:13:39 and no, this isn't just my opinion 21:13:58 i have seen it expressed a great many times, a lot in this channel 21:14:09 alise_, considering the population of earth very very few specific opinions will be unique 21:14:33 I don't use retarded loopholes like you do, so no need to worry about that. 21:14:39 alise_, hah 21:14:43 3% [> ] 21,423,692 231K/s eta 54m 47s 21:14:45 That should go faster. 21:14:48 alise_, of what? 21:14:50 I would like that to go faster. Go faster, that. 21:14:59 alise_, is that the megaupload url? 21:15:09 Vorpal: Yes. It's a ton of Mac OSes; I want it for 7.6.1. 21:15:25 alise_, downloading that too: 9 minutes remaining, 162 of 578 MB (833 KB/sec) 21:15:25 :P 21:15:37 Vorpal: :< 21:15:40 alise_, no I don't have premium account 21:15:42 Vorpal: But my connection gets those speeds! 21:15:46 Just not on this download. 21:15:55 I don't suppose you're willing to mirror that somewhere more European? 21:16:00 8 minutes remaining 21:16:02 :P 21:16:27 alise_, the closest server I have where I could put it is in LA, CA, US 21:16:41 alise_, I would be willing to use this to seed the torrent however 21:16:49 alise_, if you /msg me details of it 21:17:09 (btw, Mac OS 8 < 8.5 == Mac OS 7.7, pretty much) 21:17:22 alise_, I assume you will seed to at least a 1.5 ratio without interruptions (except for computer being shut down) 21:17:24 in that case 21:17:32 Vorpal: what's your upload? 21:17:42 alise_, about 80 KiB/s 21:17:51 i'm downloading at 300 KiB/s 21:17:53 so I'll pass 21:17:56 hm 21:17:59 well 21:18:02 now it's 170 KiB/s 21:18:04 but still more than 80 21:18:06 alise_, 6 minutes remaining 21:18:10 49 21:18:12 829 KB/s 21:18:22 ooh 879 KB/s 21:18:25 that is unlikely 21:18:33 it exceeds the theoretical limit 21:18:43 8 megabit/second down 21:18:47 woo, the torrent is 404'd. 21:18:57 it shouldn't be possible to get *sustained* speeds above 800 KB/s 21:19:02 on 8 megabit/second down 21:19:12 Vorpal: um, it's 1024 KiB/s 21:19:15 sure peeks might be due to buffering or ATM transfer mode or such 21:19:24 alise_, yes but with overhead... 21:19:32 alise_, of protocols 21:19:34 and so on 21:19:39 Vorpal: probably not 224 bytes of overhead. 21:20:10 alise_, other traffic. I'm youtube-dling at 130 KB/s in another tab 21:20:34 Vorpal: btw, you may want to "mplayer $(youtube-dl -b -g ...url...)" to watch stuff in real time 21:20:36 maybe with a -cache option 21:20:40 rather than waiting for the download 21:20:51 alise_, but then I noticed that sometimes I get burst up speeds in excess of 2 MB/s. And the bursts are often lasts several seconds 21:21:05 then it "calms down" to the normal speed 21:21:44 alise_, youtube-dl blah & wait until it says about 20 % vlc blah 21:21:46 is what I do 21:21:58 Vorpal: ugh, vlc 21:22:04 you do realise vlc can do youtube natively? 21:22:06 (but it ~never works) 21:22:13 alise_, yes I know it never works 21:22:13 anyway, point is you don't have to do the waiting manually 21:22:33 assuming you use something which can actually play urls without being retarded 21:22:34 i.e. mplayer 21:22:42 alise_, you know what happens when I don't? It takes too long to download 21:23:20 o_O 21:23:23 I measured that for 10 minute HD I need to wait until 20-25% until I can start watching if I don't want to end up stalling around 80% or 90% 21:23:37 so use a big -cache 21:24:02 alise_, meh, this works and I often don't want to watch it right away anyway 21:24:26 * alise_ wonders how fast you can virtualise x86 code on x86 (i.e. running on the CPU natively for the most part, but unable to affect anything outside without going through the virtualising software) 21:24:45 alise_, usually when I do want to watch right away it is periodicvideos or sixtysymbols, and then I queue several downloads and start the first after 20% 21:24:48 why? nanokernel OS that runs all processes under this and just lets them message-pass :D 21:24:49 no stall later on then 21:24:58 alise_, download done! 21:24:59 :) 21:25:17 23% [========> ] 141,469,942 180K/s eta 41m 27s f 21:25:31 Vorpal: let's race it against airmailnet 21:25:38 alise_, eh? 21:25:50 alise_, anyway do you have a checksum for it? 21:25:53 (delegates to wheelsnet and sneakernet at both endpoints) 21:25:58 *wheelnet 21:26:08 alise_, what? 21:26:13 Vorpal: i.e. send it to me in the post :P 21:26:31 alise_, hah that would take longer 21:27:12 $ file Apple_Legacy_CD.iso 21:27:12 Apple_Legacy_CD.iso: data 21:27:17 alise_, that doesn't look good at all 21:27:27 Vorpal: hmm. 21:27:39 Vorpal: try s!/dev/cdrom!that! in basilisk ii prefs 21:27:43 dear keyboard: please let this key reattach 21:27:56 alise_, I will try to put it in the GUI :P 21:28:17 alise_, just sending it to the right computer over sshfs 21:28:38 yes, to protect that secret, secret iso file 21:29:03 alise_, no, because I don't have nfs set up to laptop and I already had sshfs mounted 21:29:08 alise_: to be fair, ssh tends to be faster 21:29:12 I use sshfs because it is easy 21:29:16 because it compresses en route 21:29:33 no need to mess with configs 21:29:35 apart from ssh 21:29:39 and I have that set up anyway 21:31:26 alise_, I have no /dev/cdrom in that prefs file 21:31:35 hmm good point 21:31:39 maybe it's in the SCSI section 21:31:47 what format is the line 21:31:48 I forgot 21:32:17 alise_, ah it is cdrom 21:32:20 and it seems to boot from it 21:32:27 7.6.1 21:32:29 so it works? 21:32:30 good 21:32:33 Vorpal: yeah, it'll have the installers 21:32:37 for up to 8.0 i think 21:32:38 or maybe 8.5 21:32:39 alise_, whoo Newton! 21:32:42 many many installers 21:32:43 Newton? 21:32:45 what about it 21:32:46 alise_, yes! 21:32:52 alise_, there is a folder on the CD 21:32:54 with that name 21:32:57 hehe 21:33:02 and surely you know what it is! 21:33:04 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Apple_Newton_and_iPhone.jpg 21:33:28 alise_, well, the newton had a larger screen 21:33:45 alise_, and is that a vertical antenna at the top? 21:34:22 i think so 21:34:35 44% [================> ] 269,363,186 332K/s eta 27m 25s f 21:34:50 alise_, System 1.0, 2.0.1, 5.0, 5.1, ... 21:34:51 -!- derdon has joined. 21:35:01 what happened to 2.0, 3.* and 4.*? 21:35:11 Vorpal: i forget, but there was no 2 and 3 21:35:16 iirc 21:35:21 there is 2.0.1 there 21:35:23 so what about 4 21:35:31 oh, there were 21:35:33 alise_, there is up to 8.1 btw 21:35:39 1, 2, 3 and 4 were basically identical 21:35:52 system software 2.01 = system 4.0 or 4.1 21:36:08 system software version =/= system evrsion =/= finder version 21:36:14 in the early days 21:36:26 Apple SW A-D, E-M and N-Z 21:36:27 hm 21:36:34 alise_, is there a *non*-legacy cd too? 21:36:41 like for 8.5 - 9.0 21:36:59 Vorpal: i dunno, this is 68k 21:37:05 so for ppc... i don't know 21:37:08 alise_, 8.1 came for 68k? 21:37:11 yes 21:37:14 8.5 was the first ppc-only version 21:37:16 why on earth 21:37:19 Vorpal: 8.1 is nothing like 8.5 21:37:29 8 <= version < 8.5 is more like Mac OS 7.6 21:37:31 alise_, didn't 8.1 use the grayish theme? 21:37:33 than Mac OS 8 as you know it 21:37:41 Vorpal: yes, but 21:37:45 apart from appearance 21:37:50 it's basically the next major release of 7 21:37:53 alise_, A/UX! 21:37:57 8.5 is when it started on the path towards 9 21:38:02 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/MacOS81_screenshot.png 21:38:04 BMW CyberDrive! 21:38:19 Emate 300! It's like a Newton but NOT! 21:38:21 alise_, there is god damn Lisa stuff on there 21:38:23 Movies from MARS 21:38:33 Lisa O/S 3.1 21:38:36 Lisa Pascal Workshop 21:38:53 O/S heh 21:39:01 says so in the dir name yes 21:39:18 Mac OS Runtime for Java 1.5.1 21:39:29 MacTCP Token Ring Extension haha 21:39:36 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:39:51 one token ring to rule them all... 21:39:58 -!- tombom has joined. 21:40:10 alise_, I can't find MPW though 21:40:26 i think it is just OS software. 21:40:59 there is colorsync and quicktime too 21:41:20 and peripheral drivers 21:41:50 alise_, newton seems to have had stylewriter drivers 21:42:01 alise_, I wonder if you could hook up a printer to an iphone? 21:42:03 I bet not 21:42:59 sure, network printer 21:43:28 also perhaps bluetooth, i think ipad does bluetooth at least since it has the keyboard 21:43:34 don't think the iphone does though 21:43:43 nope, it has bluetooth 21:43:48 although apparently it's a bit rubbish 21:43:57 89% [=================================> ] 540,800,200 837K/s eta 3m 47s f 21:43:59 Vorpal: HA HA 21:44:25 alise_, what about it? 21:44:29 alise_, I'm already done :P 21:44:37 i have superiorised your speed 21:44:42 840 KiB/s. sustained 21:44:43 alise_, no 21:44:44 beyotch 21:45:06 alise_, I said I got 873 KB/s max, and near the end I got 860 KB/s sustained 21:45:10 so you fail 21:45:25 but you said that was impossible 21:45:28 i am accentuating the unpossible 21:45:30 so die on the floor 21:45:49 A A A DOWNLOADED 21:45:52 I WILL HAL IT 21:46:01 alise_, well I think I sometimes get more bw than I pay for :P 21:46:59 btw why does both's font looks as slightly less ugly Comic sans? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Apple_Newton_and_iPhone.jpg 21:47:50 lol @ those apples background 21:47:51 appl appl appl 21:48:11 Vorpal: because newton used such a font for note taking 21:48:22 and the iphone uses Marker Felt for Notes, which irritates EVERYONE 21:48:22 -!- Vegabondmx has joined. 21:48:30 (John Gruber actually fiddled around with system files just to get it to use something else) 21:48:31 alise_, yes I noticed, also you get image corruption when you open a second-level dir with a large window and then drags that window about 21:48:39 screen corruption on desktop 21:48:42 Vorpal: how big is your screen? 21:48:47 set to 21:48:51 let me check 21:49:09 screen win/1024/600 21:49:10 alise_, ^ 21:49:10 i like the statistics it gives you for untranslated instructions 21:49:15 Rank Opc Count Name 21:49:15 000: a975 1545452 ILLEGAL 21:49:15 001: e541 283685 ASL 21:49:15 002: a822 278293 ILLEGAL 21:49:15 003: a873 244811 ILLEGAL 21:49:16 004: a88f 231497 ILLEGAL 21:49:18 so many illegal opcodes 21:49:26 Vorpal: yeah, uh, you can't really expect stability with a non-standard res. 21:49:35 alise_, yes that is only with JIT and JIT is somewhat buggy 21:49:40 512x384 is safe. everything else is hit-and-miss 21:49:45 is the jit buggy? 21:49:46 alise_, well... that is too small 21:49:47 works for me 21:49:54 it's what you had back in the day 21:49:54 deal 21:49:58 alise_, without JIT some old games work 21:50:05 with it they fail with illegal instruction 21:50:12 ohh the iso is so nicely organised :3 21:50:20 alise_, yes now to find a PPC one 21:50:25 no 68k is my love forever 21:50:30 lovely little architecture 21:51:10 * alise_ installs OSS to get sound working 21:52:04 alise_, where did you find the legacy software recovery cd? 21:52:08 macintoshgarden? 21:52:16 Vorpal: yes, the forums 21:52:17 http://www.macintoshgarden.org/forum/ndif-disk-copy-basilisk-ii-system-76-and-headaches 21:52:23 after gratuitous amounts of googling 21:53:14 alise_, http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/be-os-macworld-preview-release 21:54:56 cute 21:55:19 anyone know how to unload alsa modules? 21:55:41 http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-system-software-recovery-1-dated-1998 21:55:51 alise_, kill everything using sound first probably 21:56:01 wait, it seems to have done it itself 21:56:05 or not 21:56:37 going to try rebooting 21:56:45 brb 21:56:50 -!- alise_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:57:19 * pikhq officially has more games than any one person could play. Or want to play, for that matter. 21:59:06 -!- alise has joined. 21:59:13 Fuck yeah! gnome-volume-control does OSS. 21:59:20 pikhq, how? 21:59:51 Phantom_Hoover: I have all the games for: NES, SNES, N64, FDS, GB, GBC, GBA. 22:00:17 "All" in the sense of every last one? 22:00:17 pikhq: context? 22:00:23 14:56 * pikhq officially has more games than any one person could play. Or want to play, for that matter. 22:00:36 Wait. EVERY SINGLE N64 game? 22:00:39 EVERY SINGLE GBA game? 22:00:45 The latter is simply not possible! 22:01:02 Phantom_Hoover: In the sense of "every single one that was actually put on a cartridge and sold" (and a superset of that, actually...) 22:01:15 Vorpal: Do you know how to disable the Unix FS? 22:01:21 pikhq: How do you have all GBA games. 22:01:26 alise, why would you want to 22:01:35 alise, it is very useful to transfer downloaded fs to it 22:01:36 err 22:01:38 alise: ~/games/emulation/GBA 22:01:38 ah, setting it to false works 22:01:39 downloaded files 22:01:40 :) 22:01:43 Vorpal: well, ok 22:01:47 pikhq, BLATANT LIES 22:01:48 pikhq: But how. 22:01:49 alise, just pointing it to a subdir not / 22:01:58 * alise makes Unix folder 22:01:59 alise, I use ~/mac/shared 22:02:06 well full path in config 22:02:09 well,* 22:02:11 alise: It's a mere 24GB when uncompressed. 22:02:13 But wait, someone was obviously dumping them... 22:02:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:02:50 : gather statistics on untranslated insns count 22:02:51 : gather statistics on translation time 22:02:53 Is it possible to disable this? 22:02:54 pikhq, do you have them legally? 22:03:00 Vorpal: hahahaha 22:03:01 alise, yes by disabling the JIT :P 22:03:02 Vorpal: Not only no but hell no. 22:03:12 pikhq, *phew* 22:03:17 Vorpal: omg it DOES have A/UX 22:03:24 alise, I said so 22:03:25 above 22:03:29 alise, please *READ* 22:03:30 sexiest .iso ever 22:03:35 Vorpal: i thought you were just saying yay A/UX 22:03:37 not OMG THIS HAS A/UX. 22:03:40 alise, it is CD 4 of 4 22:03:45 this thing is a national treasure 22:03:48 Vorpal: who cares about the other 3 22:03:49 they probably suck 22:03:54 this thing has all anyone could ever want 22:03:55 Hooray A/UX! 22:04:02 alise, first has apple application software, the next two have PPC OS software 22:04:06 A/UX, it's got what plants crave! 22:04:31 alise, you could set up an appleshare server! 22:05:20 is there a way to make a disk appear as a hard disk, not a floppy, to the OS? 22:05:34 alise, not that I know of. And it doesn't really matter 22:05:41 except it can't be formatted :) 22:05:55 alise, so use two images 22:06:01 one for each partition 22:06:02 or such 22:06:11 i just meant for wiping 22:06:11 :P 22:06:19 "Ethernet Interface: eth0" 22:06:21 Whyever not? 22:06:28 alise: The sad thing is, most console emulators appear to suck. Especially for more recent systems. 22:06:30 alise, um? dd if=/dev/zero of=diskimage 22:06:31 :P 22:06:43 "Cannot open /dev/sheep_net (No such file or directory). Ethernet will not be available." 22:06:45 Aww... 22:06:49 alise, don't use that one 22:06:52 alise, it doesn't work 22:06:57 with modern kernels 22:07:00 "Tunnel MacOS Networking over UDP" 22:07:01 Ooh... 22:07:01 alise, there is an user space one 22:07:06 That sounds nice. 22:07:10 alise, the user space one is the only one that works 22:07:10 Does it work? 22:07:17 Is that the user space one? 22:07:23 alise, hm let me check 22:07:38 alise, slirp 22:07:41 is userface 22:07:43 err 22:07:44 okay 22:07:44 userspace* 22:07:53 does it work out of the box? 22:08:05 alise, and tunneling probably works but it needs another sheepshaver as the end poiint 22:08:07 point* 22:08:11 no internet connection iirc 22:08:17 alise, slirp works out of box for me 22:08:41 interestingly, it crashes the first time 22:08:43 but then works after that 22:08:54 alise, um, probably unrelated 22:08:56 worked for me 22:09:02 yeah it happens even for normal stuff with me 22:09:03 segfault 22:09:05 probably jit weirdness 22:09:28 "System Software by CPU" haha 22:09:50 sweet 22:09:52 all the installers automount 22:10:02 Vorpal: apple sure took a lot of care with this disk 22:10:11 everything Just Works :P 22:10:17 yay installing 7.6.1 22:10:37 alise: Well, yes. It's classic Apple. They prided themselves on that then. 22:10:51 Vorpal: huh, i get visual distortion here too 22:10:55 only with JIT? 22:10:59 alise, I was not using JIT 22:11:06 strange 22:11:12 oh well, basilisk II is buggy 22:11:14 everyone knows that 22:11:24 alise, I thought you said it was sheepshaver that was :P 22:11:38 wow, you're right, it loads extensions ludicrously fast 22:11:40 Vorpal: well yeah. that too 22:11:48 AIEE the trash is more to the left than the other two icons 22:12:04 alise, it loads extensions faster than any real mac that ran those OSes even without JIT 22:12:11 JIT just makes it flicker past 22:12:11 /usr/bin/ld: fatal error: out of file descriptors and couldn't close any 22:12:13 ... awesome 22:12:19 Gregor: XD 22:12:19 Gregor: Dang. 22:12:23 Gregor, how? 22:12:27 WebKit 22:12:30 I'm here to kick ass and close file descriptors, and I'm all out of file descriptors. 22:12:35 Gregor, how many files is it trying to link at once 22:12:39 Ah, WebKit. Linker abuse. 22:12:41 Vorpal: A metric lot. 22:12:43 Vorpal: Yes. 22:12:52 "How many files is it trying to link at once?" "Yes." 22:13:01 a perfectly cromulent response 22:13:17 alise: So I like giving "Yes" additional semantics. 22:13:18 Gregor, I suggest you put them in a hanful of *.a and use the whole archive option to force include the entire archive (including unreferenced files from outside) 22:13:21 Iiiiit's iCab time! 22:13:25 handful* 22:13:36 Vorpal: I wasn't really planning on linking manually X-P 22:13:41 Gregor, ah 22:13:55 iCab 2.9.9. It's got what 68k users crave! 22:14:00 http://www.icab.de/download.php?os=68k&lang=en 22:14:01 This is with gold. Original ld segfaults. 22:14:07 Argh does anyone have a copy of Stuffit. 22:14:26 alise, is it shareware or not? 22:14:41 iCab? Dunno. 22:14:43 Stuffit? Yes. 22:14:46 Well, not in those days. 22:14:54 alise, I have stuffit keys btw somewhere 22:15:07 alise, have quicktime pro key too I think 22:15:47 stuffit /expander/ is free 22:15:49 on old mac os 22:15:56 ehh 22:15:58 i can copy it off another disk 22:16:18 alise, I refuse to comment on origin and you are absolutely not welcome to inquire in /msg about a non-existent wide selection of keys for old mac software. :P 22:16:51 Duuude, your metaphysics is, like, acid, maaan. 22:17:02 I can't taaaaaake it. 22:17:07 alise, metaphysics how? 22:17:14 The, existence, man. 22:17:19 ah 22:17:34 Royco 22:17:37 Cup of soup 22:18:02 Pfft, it's a mere 1,614 object files. 22:18:24 Konqueror history: "Clearly it should be ordered by domain." 22:18:47 "Also, have no way to disable this." 22:19:13 Sounds GNOMEish 22:19:24 No, GNOME would have no way to disable it, but it wouldn't sort by damn domain in the first place. 22:19:56 alise, and if it had a way to disable it, you would have to use gconf to reach it 22:20:09 alise, there is a balance between zzoishness and gnomishness though 22:20:11 Yes, but again, it wouldn't do that in the first place. :P 22:20:24 alise, I think sorting by day then domain is a good idea 22:20:34 Yeah; Konqueror does it the other way around. 22:20:38 okay 22:20:40 that is silly 22:20:48 Or at least, groups visits to a domain from ages ago into the same domain thing, even if it's at the top for most recent. 22:20:53 Vorpal: GNOME is becoming less and less extreme-GNOMEish each release, anyway. 22:21:04 And KDE 4 is becoming more... KDE 4. Which is more confusing than anything else. 22:21:19 At least I could tell what KDE 3 was "all about"; I'm not sure what KDE SC 4's goals are at all. 22:21:28 KDE 4 = badsauce 22:21:35 I think they're to seem to work like GNOME on the surface, but then ... not work at all underneath. 22:21:43 alise, actually I seen both directions in GNOME. Like that "make pressing key while hovering menu item change shortcut". Useful. Used to be available in GUI config 22:21:43 KDE4 is not to be ingested 22:21:47 nowdays it is gconf only 22:22:01 alise: Makes you wish they had just ported KDE 3 to Qt 4 and called it a day. 22:22:01 Vorpal: Yeah, although it may be useful it's... really confusing if you trigger it by accident. 22:22:17 Vorpal: Anyway, overall GNOME is definitely getting better. 22:22:26 Qt 4 is awesome. KDE 3 was awesome. Combine it and you get double-awesome. 22:22:39 alise, well I find gnome-terminal default key bindings for switching and moving tabs around is just unusable 22:22:44 I prefer konsole style for that 22:22:49 KDE 3 wasn't awesome, IMO. But it's more understandable than KDE 4. 22:22:53 so extremely useful option 22:22:56 Vorpal: Yeah, but I mean, overall. 22:23:07 Aladdin Expander, wow, it's not even called Stuffit. 22:23:12 oh, it is 22:23:14 alise, KDE3 was KDE3. That had both downsides and upsides 22:23:16 just not the installer filename 22:23:16 alise: Okay, yeah, it wasn't actually awesome, but it was... I dunno. Very much usable. 22:23:24 Version 5.5 from 1999 (or at least with a copyright date ending 1999) 22:23:30 With just a handful of really stupid things. 22:23:33 The Ctrl-Alt-A thing in the window manager was awesome 22:23:34 (ARTs!) 22:23:36 That still exists, right? 22:23:42 pikhq: It was /understandable/. You used KDE 3 and you knew exactly what it was aiming for. 22:23:49 alise, exactly 22:23:51 And this might be tolerable for you. 22:23:55 alise, guess why I was a huge fan of it? 22:24:05 alise, I don't know where gnome is heading these days really 22:24:10 KDE SC 4 is implemented better than KDE 3 -- at least, now it is -- but it has no philosophy. 22:24:11 but in part I suspect I don't like it 22:24:28 alise: I've basically given up on desktop environments by now. 22:24:37 GNOME is heading for something that Just Works without thinking. Apple is an example of aiming for that and missing. 22:24:39 Though XFCE doesn't seem revolting. 22:24:55 GNOME has aimed for that for most of its life -- at least since GNOME 2 -- and has missed several times, but appears to be on the right track now. 22:25:01 pikhq, xfce is quite nice, used it on some live cds for disk stuff 22:25:10 alise, how far did they miss? 22:25:12 systemrescuecd is awesome for doing weird partition stuff 22:25:15 Since it's all open and whatnot, there's less of the corporate pressure that stopped Apple from keeping trying new things until they worked. 22:25:20 Phantom_Hoover: Apple? 22:25:26 Phantom_Hoover: Latest OS X misses by a long mark. 22:25:27 I always use that when setting up disks 22:25:36 System Software 6 was very close. But it was limited, so. 22:25:47 Phantom_Hoover: KDE had more "just works" than GNOME back in the day (TM). 22:26:02 alise, I haven't used the latest OS... 22:26:03 And KDE didn't ever really aim for that... 22:26:11 pikhq: yeah -- remember that GNOME vs KDE article? 22:26:14 alise, I think GNOME is partly on the wrong track, because it means I don't really have options to configure stuff I disagree with it about 22:26:19 alise: Not really. 22:26:20 With the vomit-encrusted rave GNOME thing? 22:26:22 still it is not so bad I can't stand it 22:26:49 alise, I would say that is quite reversed these days 22:26:53 that article 22:27:04 alise, wasn't KDE a german office of exactness? 22:27:05 alise: Oh, that. Right. 22:27:14 pikhq: It was "KDE developers are European and listen to tinkling classical music in a modern architecture building and do everything by the book, then enter the military to kill people senselessly because they are empty inside" and "GNOME developers are all at a rave and vomit and shit everywhere while lights strobe, and occasionally they put it all in a tarball and release it without checking whether it works." 22:27:31 Anyway, yeah, that was true back in the day, with GNOME being the crazy unusable UI-effects one. 22:27:36 It's interesting how much that is reversed now. 22:27:42 Although really both are like KDE in the article now. 22:27:45 The latter is... maybe E17? 22:27:52 alise, I don't remember the military bit 22:28:00 Vorpal: it definitely had it 22:28:02 alise: Except for the "put it all in a tarball" thing. 22:28:08 E17 doesn't release. 22:28:08 alise, e17 XD 22:28:12 I never tried it 22:28:14 pikhq: Well, yes. 22:28:16 Vorpal: It's not very good. 22:28:28 but it looked... eyecandish? 22:28:30 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/E17_screenshot.jpg 22:28:32 It is. 22:28:35 Eye candy and nothing else. 22:28:38 Vorpal: It has some interesting things going on, but it's a version control checkout and it shows. 22:28:42 Much more popular a while ago than it is now. 22:28:42 hm 22:28:50 alise: That was E16. 22:28:54 I can't say I like eye candy 22:28:57 pikhq: ? 22:29:04 E16 didn't have eye candy. 22:29:07 Enlightenment 16 was popular. 22:29:08 Not really. 22:29:10 Ah. 22:29:15 Well E17 was popular too, in some circles. 22:29:24 alise, I suppose you don't approve of Compiz, then? 22:29:28 Vorpal: Eye candy is worthless; but ugliness is pretty unusable too. 22:29:32 Wait, E16 still has releases? 22:29:39 Lack of gradients isn't ugliness, though. :) 22:29:43 alise, pikhq: I use clearlooks, metacity, old version of standard gnome icon theme, #D3D9FF solid color desktop bg 22:29:49 pikhq: yep, apparently 22:29:50 that says everything I think 22:29:55 Vorpal: Clean. 22:29:57 clearlooks is pretty eyecandyish 22:30:20 Vorpal: old clearlooks was great: http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png 22:30:20 alise: It's the unobtrusive kind, though. 22:30:25 more conservative than it is now 22:30:30 alise, pikhq due to different colour reproduction on my laptop I use #DCDDEF there 22:30:33 that's circa 2005 22:30:34 it looks about the same 22:30:40 I don't know which is most correct 22:30:43 probably desktop 22:31:17 Vorpal: old clearlooks was great: http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png <-- hm, not same shade on window title bar 22:31:37 a lighter, and more pure blue 22:31:46 thing i hate about classic mac OS: icons are just sprawled everywhere with no organisation most of the time! 22:31:49 alise, ^ 22:31:49 Vorpal: would you consider licensing some of your GPL code as BSD just because someone asks you to for no apparent reason? 22:31:52 Vorpal: Yes; it had a different colour scheme then. 22:31:53 please say no, I need ammo in an arugmnet 22:31:54 Hmm. Actually, I may want to start using XFCE. 22:31:59 Vorpal: But look at the buttons, etc. 22:32:03 ais523, I would want a good reason 22:32:08 Vorpal: They're nicer. 22:32:09 ais523, a very good reason 22:32:18 alise, nah 22:32:21 pikhq: I dunno... I've used XFCE and ... I actually have no opinion on it. 22:32:27 It completely bypassed my opinion subsystem. 22:32:32 let's see... ESR has decided he wants to relicense C-INTERCAL as BSD because it's a compiler and it helps to solve license issues 22:32:34 Vorpal: ok, but the gradients on the toolbars 22:32:40 Vorpal: are much less obtrusive 22:32:46 I don't see any reason why the compiler itself (as opposed to libick) should be 22:32:49 ais523: i support 22:32:52 simply because BSD is nicer 22:32:53 alise, I don't have any toolbary window around to check with 22:32:58 and also, his attitude seems to be "let's just do it, we'll sort out the legal problems later" 22:33:02 oh 22:33:04 well that's retarded 22:33:05 alise, I actually use some KDE software for the toolbary ones 22:33:07 tell him he's retarded 22:33:11 alise, like kate 22:33:16 Though it must be said that GTK sucks. 22:33:24 pikhq: it does, but everything uses it anyway 22:33:28 so what ya gonna do 22:33:33 True. 22:33:47 ais523, and no I'm not prepared to re-license my contributions to ick 22:34:13 Vorpal: even if everyone else did? 22:34:16 woo, obstructiveness 22:34:17 ais523, not without a very good reason and everything being properly considered 22:34:24 luckily, even tracking down everyone else would be tricky at this point 22:34:25 alise, wait for the next line 22:34:40 Vorpal: what if there was no particular reason but every other contributor ever had already agreed? 22:34:48 ais523: I'd just tell him "that's illegal". 22:34:57 alise, I would ask why this was decided on 22:35:07 Vorpal: "Because we want it to be BSD." 22:35:10 alise, "why" 22:35:16 Vorpal: "Because we like BSD." 22:35:21 "why" 22:35:34 Vorpal: "Because we do. The other 30 contributors have already agreed; will you?" 22:35:35 alise, (I could go on forever, and if there was a good reason I would likely switch) 22:35:40 Vorpal was the best person to ask here because a) he's written some relatively hard-to-replace code, b) he's right here in the channel, c) he isn't me 22:35:46 alise, I probably wouldn't without a good reason no 22:35:54 ais523: and d) he's insane 22:36:02 * Sgeo growls 22:36:05 Vorpal: "Okay; we'll rewrite your code and remove you from the credits file." 22:36:12 alise, *shrug* 22:36:15 alise: yes, I was rather hoping he had strong views on BSD vs. GPL 22:36:23 ais523: you already know those views, surely 22:36:31 he expresses them at every available opportunity 22:36:33 I lose track 22:37:13 iCab starts! woo! 22:37:17 ais523, I'm happy to use BSD too, I tend to use GPL for my own projects due to not wanting companies making commercial use of my own code without giving back but I'm happy to contribute under BSD to projects already using it 22:37:22 network error 22:37:24 *sob* 22:37:27 ais523, that is my views on BSD vs GPL 22:37:41 and "giving back" there refers to the community as a whole 22:37:57 GOOGLE LOADS 22:37:59 and renders properly, wow 22:38:04 not in the form of paying me 22:38:14 but as in releasing improvements 22:38:21 ais523, so there you have my views on them 22:38:32 In which Google is rendered on a 68k Macintosh: http://imgur.com/ugJA5.png 22:38:37 ais523, however I doubt any sane company would want to reuse code from ick 22:38:46 it is just... too messy 22:38:55 it's better than it was 22:39:05 ESR is busy trying to make it messy by the look of things 22:39:10 ais523, well yes, thanks in part to me 22:39:11 the fact that he seems unable to read INTERCAL doesn't really help 22:39:14 ick? 22:39:17 Vorpal: I know; thanks for that 22:39:17 ais523, he what? 22:39:22 Sgeo: the main C-INTERCAL binary 22:39:28 Vorpal: he keeps asking me what programs do 22:39:33 Sgeo, I'm pretty sure you asked this before? 22:39:35 ais523: why are you even collaborating with him? 22:39:38 he's awfully incompetent 22:39:38 Sgeo, ais and ESR's magic intercal machine. 22:39:40 * Sgeo is unable to read INTERCAL... then again, I'm not encouraging a new INTERCAL project 22:39:47 Phantom_Hoover: let's just say ais's 22:39:50 ais523, perpet.c was really horrible before I cleaned it up 22:39:53 alise: because Knuth asked us to 22:39:54 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what he could write in INTERCAL 22:39:56 Sgeo: erm, he created C-INTERCAL 22:39:58 Oh 22:40:02 FOR MYSTERIOUS REASONS 22:40:03 Sgeo: (esr) 22:40:05 ais523: you could easily assemble the versions yourself 22:40:07 Confused ESR and Knuth 22:40:08 and email them to knuth first :) 22:40:08 ais523, took quite a while to figure out how stuff tied together, iirc it used goto to jump around before? 22:40:09 >.> 22:40:23 wow, this iCab was released in 2006 22:40:24 not sure if I completely got rid of that or not 22:40:26 can you believe that? 22:40:30 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:31 new 68k software, released in 2006 22:40:32 ais523, have you found out why Knuth wants this‽ 22:40:33 by an actual company 22:40:41 Phantom_Hoover: The Art of Computer Programming. 22:40:44 alise, they stopped after that 22:40:48 I refuse to answer questions with gratuitous interrobangs 22:40:48 Vorpal: who cares 22:41:03 I refuse to answer questions with gratuitous interrobangs <-- um? 22:41:04 alise, ah, so this is how he will complete it? 22:41:05 alise: ... Kidding, right? 22:41:11 who was that directed to 22:41:19 pikhq: me? 22:41:21 Vorpal: to Phantom_Hoover, who'd just used one 22:41:22 pikhq: for what remark? 22:41:27 Phantom_Hoover: dunno 22:41:27 alise: TAoCP & INTERCAL? 22:41:30 ais523, ah 22:41:30 pikhq: nope 22:41:37 pikhq: he's including an INTERCAL program, apparently 22:41:38 The fuuuuck? 22:41:39 ask ais523 to confirm 22:41:52 why would he do that 22:41:58 Sorry, a system error occured. 22:42:00 “iCab” 22:42:03 error type 10 22:42:03 hmm, http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2491#more-2491 seems to give some of the context 22:42:05 [ Restart ] 22:42:09 Oh, wait. He's going to be discussing compiler techniques... 22:42:11 alise, ah reboot 22:42:16 Vorpal, for great epicicity! 22:42:18 Internet Taxi for the Mac? 22:42:25 Don (he asked me to call him that, honest!) had requested a bug fix in INTERCAL, which he plans to use as the subject of a chapter in his forthcoming book Selected Papers on Fun And Games. As of those three hours ago Donald Knuth’s program is part of the INTERCAL compiler’s regression-test suite. 22:42:25 ais523: even just his blog post titles make me want to stab him 22:42:40 Sgeo: it's a web browser 22:42:43 pikhq, the issue with C-INTERCAL is mostly parsing (though optimisation is also non-trivial) 22:42:51 at least as far as I understand it 22:42:54 what's annoying me atm is that he seems to have an attitude of "if you have a good testsuite, any commit that doesn't break it should be accepted" 22:43:01 Anything with "Taxi" in the name should be an interpreter for Taxi 22:43:11 ais523: even useless commits? 22:43:25 or ones that reduce code quality, AFAICT 22:43:35 My god, ESR may challenge Wolfram in ego. 22:43:43 he told me to open up commit access to the INTERCAL repos for anyone I'd been working with 22:43:46 "I discovered that INTERCAL had nucleated an entire weird little subculture of esoteric-language designers around itself, among whom I had come to be regarded as sort of a patriarch in absentia…." 22:43:49 argh 22:43:53 basilisk is so crashy 22:43:54 on the assumption that they'd run the regression tests first 22:43:58 alise, is it? 22:43:59 Phantom_Hoover: HAHA 22:44:04 alise, what are you doing in it? 22:44:09 nobody, and I mean nobody, considers esr godlike in the esolangs community 22:44:12 he also claims that all modern INTERCAL impls are decended from C-INTERCAL 22:44:13 alise, I found that browsing web is a bad idea. 22:44:16 alise, otherwise it works well 22:44:21 even after I specifically told him CLC-INTERCAL existed 22:44:21 Vorpal: that's what i was trying 22:44:24 Vorpal: know of an irc client? 22:44:24 alise, this is what I was mocking. 22:44:31 ais523: this is esr, are you surprised? 22:44:39 alise, not 68k no 22:44:39 suggestion: avoid talking to him, do only the work Knuth requests 22:44:42 also, I'm apparently a "doughty Englishman" 22:44:44 alise, get MPW and make one 22:44:48 Vorpal: no 22:44:53 I bet ircle works 22:44:58 alise, no clue 22:45:02 yep 22:45:04 there's an ircle release 22:45:06 .sit.bin fun fun 22:45:13 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what doughty means. 22:45:13 alise, that should be easy 22:45:24 ais523: does he know what doughty means? 22:45:24 YOU PEOPLE AND YOUR SLANG 22:45:30 I didn't; "brave, courageous and stouthearted" 22:45:33 alise, even if stuffit fails at .bin 22:45:33 I don't know what doughty means either 22:45:37 how the heck can he deduce that from C-INTERCAL? 22:45:38 which I don't think it will 22:45:45 Vorpal: it doesn't 22:45:47 fail at it 22:45:47 you could still use hfstools to copy it to the disk image 22:45:47 that is 22:45:52 from unix 22:45:57 alise, to work on it for any time would require that. 22:45:57 haha it has both UK and US english releases 22:46:02 and hfstools support copy and unhqz 22:46:08 hqx* 22:46:12 and same for bin 22:46:16 well both ways 22:46:51 alise, btw when you linked http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/E17_screenshot.jpg did you read the dialog in the middle? 22:46:57 it is hilarious 22:47:20 yeah :) 22:47:25 that's conservative, haha 22:47:42 Compiz can totally outflashy that. 22:47:47 alise, and calling a supposedly "conservative" theme "bling bling"...? 22:47:49 wtf 22:49:23 Vorpal, it's called irony. 22:49:43 hey, it got a 2010 date correct 22:49:44 impressive 22:49:49 Phantom_Hoover, you think they did that intentionally? 22:49:54 alise, what did? 22:49:59 You know, ESR might actually be more full of himself than Wolfram... 22:50:04 basilisk's scroll wheel emulation is awesome 22:50:06 Phantom_Hoover: no, he isn't 22:50:08 Vorpal: ircle 22:50:25 alise, o.o 22:50:40 basilisk's scroll wheel emulation is awesome <-- um... it doesn't work in all apps due to being implemented as "arrow key input" 22:50:47 I evidently haven't learnt enough of Wolfram. 22:50:49 and in some apps it scrolls too fast 22:50:51 and so on 22:51:23 -!- alise68k has joined. 22:51:34 Good morning America! 22:51:48 Phantom_Hoover, read the introduction at http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html 22:51:49 hi 22:52:01 Phantom_Hoover, even ESR isn't that bad 22:52:22 AAAAGH 22:52:42 His *software* has a huge ego... 22:53:02 And is apparently oblivious to Lisp... 22:53:04 Phantom_Hoover, what about this one: " 22:53:04 Mathematica provides a uniquely integrated and automated environment for parallel computing. With zero configuration, full interactivity and seamless local and network operation, the symbolic character of the Mathematica language allows immediate support of a variety of existing and new parallel programming paradigms and data-sharing models. " 22:53:14 not quite as bad as the first one 22:53:15 but still 22:53:36 * Phantom_Hoover avoids concurrency quite well as it is, thank you very much. 22:54:05 Phantom_Hoover, "Integrated into the core Mathematica language is industrial-strength string manipulation, not only with ordinary regular expressions, but also with Mathematica's own powerful general symbolic string-pattern language. " 22:54:23 this is embarrassingly bad 22:54:38 Again, I haven't bothered to learn about string processing, so they could be right for all I know. 22:54:47 how can anyone write "industrial-strength string manipulation" and NOT be joking 22:56:13 Well, doing *anything* industrial-strength in Mathematica seems silly to me. 22:56:22 well that too 22:56:47 Even Coq seems more immediately gluable to the outside world. 22:57:06 Phantom_Hoover, but "industrial-strength string manipulation" is almost as silly as "Enterprise INTERCAL System Administrator Certification" 22:57:14 hey, I'd do the latter 22:57:25 also, Mathematica doesn't even do things like a memoized study 22:57:29 ais523, can I have one? 22:57:32 well, admittedly nothing else does either, but it'd help it out 22:57:46 Phantom_Hoover: first step is to explain what it actually /means/ 22:57:48 INTERCAL certification, that is. 22:57:56 you'd also need to demonstrate expertise in administering an INTERCAL-based system 22:58:09 ais523, a redundant one of course 22:58:23 I can truthfully say that I have administered every INTERCAL-based system in existence. 22:58:33 I'm not going to fall for that one 22:58:37 Vorpal: ? 22:58:39 ais523, why not implement a redundant distributed network on top of CLC-INTERCAL networking 22:58:47 such as erlang or similar 22:58:49 ais523, pleeeeeaaaaase? 22:58:56 Vorpal: because I have better things to do? 22:59:04 ais523, good point 23:00:34 ais523, pleasepleaseplease?? 23:00:50 ais523, I imagine a rack containing some UPSes and huge cabinets of blade servers, each running INTERCAL software 23:01:02 I can't seem to get this image out of my mind 23:01:04 Phantom_Hoover: begging is a method of gaining certification? 23:01:10 ais523, YES 23:02:06 Honestly, what kind of university did you go to? 23:02:20 Phantom_Hoover, what? 23:02:24 does that work at any uni? 23:02:38 Vorpal, well, all of the reputable ones. 23:02:55 nah... 23:03:01 Phantom_Hoover, graduating suma cum laude (spelling?) is the way to go 23:03:08 and doing that by begging? wrong way 23:03:13 you shouldn't need to beg 23:03:15 Vorpal, you obviously don't go to a reputable university, then. 23:03:31 Phantom_Hoover, examples of such in Europe? 23:04:20 Vorpal, they do have reputations. 23:04:26 Phantom_Hoover, read the sub titles for the categories on http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/Mathematica.html 23:04:49 They couldn't go around having people who don't know about them knowing about them, now could they? 23:04:57 what? 23:05:23 alise68k: do you have any code in C-INTERCAL? 23:05:25 Phantom_Hoover, I go to one that probably give you marks based on what you actually do 23:05:28 Vorpal, I tire of this trolling. 23:05:28 I can't remember 23:05:30 not based on begging 23:05:35 (I know you have bug reports) 23:05:36 Phantom_Hoover, you were trolling? 23:05:48 Vorpal, STANDARD TROLL TACTIC, THAT 23:05:57 Phantom_Hoover, what was? 23:06:21 Vorpal, accusing your victim of trolling! 23:06:31 Phantom_Hoover, are you saying I was trolling? 23:06:32 No 23:06:36 not intentionally at least 23:06:49 Well, that's what you'd say if you were a troll! 23:06:59 ais523, see my debating skills? 23:07:02 old one 23:07:10 *sigh* 23:07:24 meh, I don't accuse people of trolling when it's obvious 23:07:52 ais523, hence I should get my INTERCAL certification! 23:08:20 ... how does that follow 23:08:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:09:46 Vorpal, through LOGICAL. 23:09:56 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRsa8205eS4 ← strange 23:11:10 the title is wtf 23:11:23 (It's a proof assistant based on INTERCAL) 23:11:25 Phantom_Hoover, is it just black + music? 23:11:34 Vorpal, yes. 23:11:41 Phantom_Hoover, quite nice music so far 23:12:54 though somewhat abrupt change is style around 02:05 or such 23:13:43 In other news, didn't I have a random idea of a proof assistant written in Coq? 23:14:00 Phantom_Hoover, isn't Coq a proof assistant? 23:14:14 Vorpal, the change is presumably Wolfram's ego reaching its proper place in the heavens. 23:14:20 And yes, it is. 23:14:21 Phantom_Hoover, I would say awesome music with very very strange title 23:14:45 Phantom_Hoover, I think I won't delete the file the music was that awesome. Just have to ignore the title 23:16:43 http://chrishecker.com/File:Wolframalpha-crop.png ← Wolfram's ego has indeed created much entertainment. 23:18:15 If anyone living has a claim to be the high priest of the cult of systematic skepticism in software development, that would be me. 23:18:19 missed that on the first readthrough... 23:18:23 ais523: wow... 23:18:26 Phantom_Hoover: that's mild by wolfram's standards 23:18:32 alise: Have you been able to find a satisfactory GUI IM client? 23:18:38 alise, O.o 23:18:42 What's strong? 23:19:07 ais523: link Phantom_Hoover to Wolfram's blog post where he announces that he used your brain to PERSONALLY compute the answer to his BEAUTIFUL 2,3 problem 23:19:19 which was done by HIM, STEPHEN WOLFRAM 23:19:33 pikhq: No. I use Pidgin. It causes great pain. But less so than anything else. 23:19:40 alise: And IRC? 23:19:46 pikhq: I use XChat. For now. 23:19:50 ais523, if you give me my certification, I'll beat Wolfram with a pillowcase full of soap. 23:19:52 irssi it is, then! 23:20:01 alise: I'm not sure where it is, offhand 23:20:01 pikhq: XChat /can/ be configured to be somewhat tolerable... 23:20:07 pikhq: You might like WeeChat, btw. 23:20:13 Yeah, but irssi is *already* tolerable. 23:20:36 ais523, judging by my search history, I have at times thought your name to be Adam, Alan and Alex Smith. 23:20:44 http://mollyrocket.com/11235 23:20:45 are you thinking of this one: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solution_news.html 23:20:55 explanation of the title 23:20:56 also, searching for "Alex Smith" is useless, it's a rather common name 23:21:04 ais523: won't load o_O 23:21:07 and no, it was on his blog 23:21:10 ais523, yeah, that's why I refine it. 23:21:22 http://blog.wolfram.com/?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved 23:21:24 heh: 23:21:25 "↑ I will write up why I think it sucks it in more detail at some point on my Mathematica page, but for now I refer you to this. To be fair, I'm using an old copy of Mathematica 3.0, but I've looked at the feature lists of the newer versions and they don't seem to fix (or even acknowledge) the issues I have with it, so I've never bothered to upgrade. I have an article brewing about my math problem solving workflow that I hope to post before the heat death 23:21:25 of the universe." 23:21:29 someone using mathematica 3 in 2010 23:21:30 impressive 23:21:32 ais523, incidentally, do you still have that insane beard? 23:21:42 ais523: I wonder why it's not loading. 23:21:45 insane? that beard is awesome! 23:21:47 I still have a beard, yes 23:21:55 alise: did you blackhole Wolfram in your hosts file? 23:21:55 i wouldn't talk to him if he got rid of that beard 23:21:58 ais523: no, but good idea 23:22:04 alise, this is #esoteric! 23:22:07 I wouldn't put it past you... 23:22:12 his beard has been getting psychotherapy and is no longer insane 23:22:30 IRCing from a 68k Macintosh, fuck yeah! 23:22:48 Insane is not the same as not awesome!! 23:22:56 In which I use ircle: http://i.imgur.com/c3wwD.png 23:23:04 BEHOLD, PEOPLE WHO DO NOT USE OLD MACINTOSHII! 23:24:12 heh, the IM advice for System 7 is "install an IRC client and use Bitlbee" 23:24:53 ais523: "Now, friends, you may be wondering why I bothered to do all this rather than simply starting a repo with ais523’s latest snapshot and munging my week’s worth of changes into it, and all I’m going to say about that is that if the answer isn’t intuitively obvious to you you have missed the point of INTERCAL and are probably not a hacker." 23:25:24 alise: what's your opinion on that sentence? 23:25:25 ais523: tl;dr "If you don't understand why I wasted time bugging other people, you're not a hacker like I am. I know this because I wrote the definition of a hacker. Fun fact: It includes not calling yourself a hacker. I am a man of many contradictions." 23:25:35 ais523: I think it's one of the strangest sentences I've read today. 23:25:38 ah 23:25:54 ais523, incidentally, do you still have that insane beard? <-- which awesome beard? 23:25:55 link? 23:25:58 ais523: did you give him permission to quote those emails? 23:26:04 no 23:26:16 well, not explicitly 23:26:23 hmm 23:26:33 I could probably have objected if I didn't want them posted, at least 23:26:43 ais523, do you have a link to a photo? 23:26:48 my email-quoting ethics: Only do it if the other person is a massive jerk, or if you're just quoting them in private to someone you know 23:26:58 Vorpal: what, any photo? 23:27:06 just click random image on Wikimedia Commons a few times 23:27:21 ais523, no to one showing your beard 23:27:24 no,* 23:27:25 alise: just change it to "if either person is a massive jerk", then it works just fine 23:27:39 Vorpal: let's just say, I don't use Facebook for a reason 23:27:46 ais523: I think that's the first time you've outright called esr something nasty :-) 23:27:49 ais523, well I'm pretty sure I seen one 23:27:51 ais523, somewhere 23:27:57 either that or you're implying I'm a massive jerk :-D 23:28:00 which is partly that I don't see what the point in gratuitous photos are 23:28:08 Vorpal: wolfram has one, but it's old, and you're a stalker. 23:28:16 aha http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/alex_smith_bio.html 23:28:26 Nobody say anything Unicode, my poor Mac won't be able to cope. 23:28:27 alise, nah, I was just wondering what Phantom_Hoover meant 23:28:29 alise: well, or that he asked permission 23:28:37 alise, since I did not remember that 23:28:40 I'm not sure if it counts or not 23:28:51 ais523: eh? 23:29:22 Vorpal, OK, I'll compensate for your crappy Googlestalking skills. 23:29:24 ais523: Interesting challenge: find a sentence in the blog post that isn't about esr in some major way. 23:29:45 So far: "Still." 23:29:58 "Today’s routine use of such tools wasn’t even a gleam in anyone’s eye then, if only because disks were orders of magnitude smaller and there was a lot of implied pressure to actually throw away old versions of stuff." 23:30:07 Phantom_Hoover, I found it above 23:30:07 Vorpal, http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/images/alex_smith_wolfram_turing.jpg 23:30:08 ais523: That's Unicode. 23:30:09 as I said 23:30:09 Prepare to suffer. 23:30:15 Phantom_Hoover, please read up :) 23:30:21 alise68k: ? 23:30:29 Vorpal, oh, the ironing! 23:30:31 it was just a c&p from the article 23:30:37 but I can hardly re-encode it to MacRoman for you 23:30:42 Whyever not? 23:30:56 Wow, if I select a menu it halts all IRC output until I deselect. 23:30:57 not implemented in the client 23:31:02 This font is ridiculously small. 23:31:09 -!- alise68k has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:31:18 Stable! 23:31:21 ais523, anyway considering license... remember IFFI. That makes the whole thing even more complex. :P 23:31:25 * alise disables JIT 23:31:38 alise, JIT is only marginally more stable 23:31:40 Vorpal: I did remember that, it was meant to be a last-case bargaining chip 23:31:44 Vorpal: yes, marginally is good 23:31:58 atm I'm just pretending to be offline 23:32:03 ais523, right. 23:32:08 in fact, I should go actually offline, it would be nice if I got some sleep tonight 23:32:08 Wow, you really don't like talking to esr. 23:32:11 ais523, you know esr is on freenode right? 23:32:14 alise: I don't mind normally 23:32:17 blrhgl 23:32:24 it's just I can't think of a sensible answer to his last email 23:32:27 olsner: said Mr. Ner. 23:32:30 well not atm it seems 23:32:34 he usually is though 23:32:35 ais523: "That is illegal. Have a nice day." 23:32:53 ais523, anyway IFFI complicates it due to GPL3, iirc with proxy thingy too 23:33:08 yep, although the link code is GPL2 23:33:17 ais523, yes by special exception from author 23:33:20 so that works 23:33:21 heh, I suppose I've asked you to relicense for INTERCAL once already 23:33:44 IRC font options: Chicago, Courier, Geneva, Helvetica, Mishawaka, Monaco, New York, Palatino, Symbol, Times 23:33:46 So varied. 23:33:48 ais523, hm? 23:33:59 hmm, I should try to find an email from Google 23:34:11 ais523, are you suggesting going GPL3? well I doubt you would get esr with you on that... and the code he wrote.... 23:34:13 A job offer? :P 23:34:21 alise: I asked them what the license on CADIE was 23:34:26 XD 23:34:32 (Google avoid comments in INTERCAL code because they slow execution) 23:34:33 ais523, awesome 23:34:39 ais523, did they reply? 23:34:46 oh yesss this has Mac OS speech in simpletext 23:34:49 Fred I love you 23:35:03 Vorpal: yes 23:35:08 alise, "Victoria, High Quality" is all I remember from that 23:35:12 as one of the voices 23:35:19 no high quality here dammit 23:35:21 I'm classic! 23:35:28 alise, the "high quality" bit was not very well spoken 23:35:35 * alise makes it say "Fitter, happier, and more productive." 23:35:40 I am easily amused. 23:35:42 alise, that voice is from classic mac os 23:35:45 os 9 at least 23:35:59 ais523, and what was the reply? 23:36:01 There's the "the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlights of a fast approaching train" example-sentence of the "Bad News" (or some-such) voice. I fondly remember that. 23:36:01 Geneva is a lovely bitmap font. 23:36:11 fizzie: OS X still has that when you play the example. 23:36:15 trying to find it now 23:36:20 fizzie, me too... 23:36:44 -!- augur has joined. 23:37:01 alise: Heh, went to iBook / Preferences / Speech; "System Voice" is indeed set to "Bad News". :p 23:37:17 OK, CADIE's license is "apache" 23:37:27 I'm assuming that's apache v2, mostly because v1 is insane 23:37:47 -!- alise68k has joined. 23:37:50 Even the OS X text-to-speech bit is not quite state-of-the-art. 23:38:10 Indeed it isn't. 23:38:28 hmm, apache v2 is compatible with GPL3 but not GPL2 23:38:50 Huh, I thought it was GPL2-compatible. 23:39:39 I suppose the OEIS doesn't have any sequences the union of which are |? 23:39:39 Oh yeah, proportional IRC fonts. REBELLION 23:39:42 s/|/Z/ 23:39:50 ISTR there was a big row about including clauses in GPL3 and Apache2 to make the two compatible 23:39:53 Phantom_Hoover: Pretty sure it has N, at least. 23:40:01 I'm not sure your question is very well-defined. 23:40:04 Union is an operation on sets. 23:40:06 Phantom_Hoover: prime numbers and composite numbers? 23:40:12 plus the sequence that consists only of 0 and 1? 23:40:18 ais523: that's N, though 23:40:27 well, OK 23:40:29 ais523, hm... 23:40:33 throw in -1, negative primes and negative composites 23:40:38 or, what about odds and evens? 23:40:42 ais523: The GPLv3 added clauses *allowing* for certain restrictions or lack of restrictions for the sake of compatibility. 23:40:47 I don't think OEIS HAS negative numbers. 23:40:47 Well, there goes the smallest boring number. 23:40:47 Not sure. 23:41:11 ais523: The GPLv3, BTW, is compatible with the old-style BSD license, as well. 23:41:16 Phantom_Hoover: according to The Penguin Book Of Interesting Numbers, 39 is the smallest boring natural number 23:41:19 (it allows for an advertising clause) 23:41:25 pikhq: interesting 23:41:30 ircle is so weird, having a separate window for the input line and all that. 23:41:33 A big one, too. 23:41:35 ofc, advertising materials tend not to be so compatible with BSD4 23:41:38 ais523, by what metric? 23:41:50 ais523, anyway, while I wrote the main code on cfunge, after the point of implementing IFFI I got a few small patches from other people. Some not in here (very strange) and at least one I haven't seen on IRC for over half a year 23:41:57 and have no idea how to reach 23:42:00 ircle appears to not have tab-completion of nicknames. 23:42:01 Phantom_Hoover: well, the book was a dictionary of interesting numbers 23:42:06 Phantom_Hoover: A000027 is the natural numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, ...; A001489 is the nonpositive integers: 0, -1, -2, -3, ...; just join those. 23:42:09 ais523, he did not want to be in credits since it was a trivial change 23:42:17 and 39 wasn't there for any purpose other than being the smallest nonpositive 23:42:34 ais523, still that would complicate it further 23:42:38 http://www.nathanieljohnston.com/2009/06/11630-is-the-first-uninteresting-number/ gives 11630 23:42:43 could probably not change the ick exception to a new license 23:43:10 Vorpal: well, I agree; "just make the change and remove people's code if they complain" is not a sensible course of action 23:43:19 I'm remembering once again the problem with theming. 23:43:21 I'll email ESR and say that at least one contributor other than me doesn't want a relicense 23:43:26 Most people have absolutely no taste. 23:43:42 test 23:43:44 ais523, I expect you have even more hard to track down people for ick itself 23:43:47 And some people just taste like chicken., 23:44:00 Vorpal: yep 23:44:06 Monaco at 12pt is too sparse. :( 23:44:11 Oh well, it's just an emulated Mac. 23:44:42 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.research.att.com/njas/sequences/index.html?q=0%2C1%2C-1%2C2%2C-2%2C3%2C-3&language=english 23:45:01 ais523: Quick! What room should I go in to and ask for technical help in while mentioning I'm using Mac OS 7.6.1? :-D 23:45:08 oerjan, :( 23:45:22 er, http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A001057 23:45:24 alise68k: I can't think of an appropriate one; #gnaa would at least be amusing 23:45:33 alise68k, um... there is actually python that runs on classic mac os. But it might be PPC only 23:45:40 alise68k: ##c? 23:45:44 or any channel you want to troll 23:45:49 and don't mind being banned from? 23:45:56 alise68k, I was about to suggest #haskell but realised that didn't run on any classic mac os 23:46:02 arguably, Vorpal did just that in #esoteric 23:46:06 although maybe not that specific version 23:46:11 ais523, did what? 23:46:28 -!- alise68k has quit (Quit: Quit). 23:46:40 alise: Find some popular and lively FirstClass BBS somewhere, ask there. 23:46:45 Gotta love the Mac Programmer's Workshop. 23:46:48 went into an IRC channel and asked for technical help on a relevant subject using an obsolete operating system 23:46:50 Vorpal: whatever it is that you did I'm pretty sure you did it 23:46:51 fizzie, firstclass... *memories* 23:46:55 ais523: #gnaa just redirects to a Freenode "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO" channel 23:47:04 that hardly surprises me 23:47:09 fizzie, gymnasiet I studied at used first class 23:47:12 on windows that is 23:47:13 did Freenode do that? or did the GNAA themselves? I wonder 23:47:16 * Topic for ##you_have_got_to_be_kidding is: Hi, you should probably read the network policy page (http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#general) and maybe some information about the network (http://freenode.net/ and http://freenode.net/philosophy.shtml) and maybe find a better network ;) (http://irc.netsplit.de/networks). Thanks! 23:47:17 worked on linux too 23:47:18 ais523: Freenode 23:47:37 fizzie, still quite different from old firstclass 23:47:42 also, ##you_have_got_to_be_kidding is the best page name ever 23:47:42 Okay, now I need more software to try on 68k. 23:47:45 *best channel name 23:47:46 ais523: yes. page. 23:47:58 alise: Well, you've got a C compiler... 23:48:05 pikhq: I'm not installing MPW. 23:48:08 Have you ever used MPW? 23:48:08 Vorpal: I used to go to fiMUG's (Finnish Mac-user community) BBS, "AppleGarden", with the Win3.1 FirstClass client. 23:48:09 It is pain. 23:48:10 ais523, old 23:48:10 It is PAIN. 23:48:14 I thought everyone knew that 23:48:17 oh, I've also used firstclass... I remember someone figuring out how to send messages to the magic recipient "ALL" that literally put your message *everywhere* - in every bulletin board, in every subfolder, in every personal mailbox 23:48:19 Do not deny this. IT. IS. PAIN. 23:48:19 * Sgeo eats ripened ovaries 23:48:26 alise, I have used MPW... 23:48:28 Vorpal: well, I didn't 23:48:29 Sgeo: Good ... to know ... 23:48:31 alise, I ported ICK to it after all 23:48:33 Vorpal: And it was pain. 23:48:34 alise, as MPW tools 23:48:37 alise: No, but there is a guy at the local LUG who swears by it. 23:48:39 alise, only works for PPC though 23:48:48 alise, would need reporting for 68k 23:48:49 pikhq: But ... LINUX User Group... 23:49:00 pikhq: Anyway, MPW is just pain. No arguments. 23:49:17 alise, and MPW is "quaint" 23:49:20 Yes. I seem to recall he's got it set up to work with SSH. 23:49:23 And pain. 23:49:29 pikhq: Um ... tell him he's crazy. 23:49:49 alise, ever tried that metroworks IDE for mac? 23:49:54 Vorpal: No. 23:49:55 alise, codewarrior iirc? 23:49:59 I gather it's what professional developers used. 23:50:00 alise, know the name? 23:50:05 CodeWarrior, yeah. 23:50:11 alise, I tried it, it is worse than MPW in C standard support 23:50:14 and so on 23:50:16 OOH have you got a copy of HyperCard Myst Vorpal 23:50:24 I mean 23:50:26 Hypothetically. 23:50:28 alise, I have myst on a cd for mac 23:50:33 alise, legal 23:50:34 original 23:50:43 So, hypothetically, if some evil person didn't ask you in /msg... 23:50:43 alise, it is quite large 23:51:25 alise, and I have nowhere I can put it. If I could setup a hypotethical ssh tunnel to not send it over... 23:51:32 % typos 23:51:44 Damn, he'd have to hypothetically fiddle with his stupid router. 23:51:51 But he would probably consider it. 23:52:22 alise, well that hypothetical person would have to consider what he thinks it is worth :P 23:52:30 alise, and do it soon or tomorrow 23:52:41 Tomorrow sounds good. :P 23:52:46 alise, oh and I have full hypercard somewhere 23:52:48 You could hypothetically just get it from one of those hypothetical peer-to-beer places. 23:52:57 Uru is playable online 23:53:01 Peer-to-beer: the usual method of social interaction. 23:53:03 alise, anyway I have no clue if this cd works on 68k. It came bundled with a PPC Performa 23:53:06 Sgeo: Is it HyperCard? 23:53:07 (The one nautically themed one has a .dmg of the mac disc.) 23:53:15 Vorpal: If it's HyperCard, I bet I could substitute a 68k HyperCard in. 23:53:25 alise, well it is compiled hypercard I know 23:53:25 wow @ Desktop Patterns 23:53:28 Reminds me of Windows 95. 23:53:31 Vorpal: aw 23:53:36 might be fat 23:53:41 alise, might be 23:53:43 don't know 23:53:50 alise, um desktop patterns... reminds me of system 7 23:53:51 :P 23:53:56 haha they have plaid 23:54:02 alise, screenshot? 23:54:09 What's whatever programming language that HyperCard uses like? 23:54:18 Desktop Patterns! 23:54:21 I remember those! 23:54:33 What's whatever programming language that HyperCard uses like? <-- um 23:54:38 you mean HyperTalk? 23:54:39 and iirc 23:54:44 it is a bit like AppleTalk 23:54:46 but not quite 23:54:46 Vorpal: http://imgur.com/E7nac.png 23:54:48 Experience the PAIN. 23:55:06 alise, huh you could do that large repetitions 23:55:06 Dear Display Properties: Get your tabs workinbg 23:55:12 alise, you couldn't under 7.5 23:55:17 alise, I never used 7.6 23:55:20 * Sgeo growls 23:55:23 7.6 is when 7 became actually good. 23:55:41 Isn't there a "set arbitrary solid colour" option anywhere? Gaah. 23:55:49 The dithering is weird. 23:56:03 whatever classic came with (when I was really small), various subversions of 7.5, 8.5 a few times, 9.0.4 and 9.1 quite a lot 23:56:28 alise, go to monitor settings 23:56:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:56:36 alise, and set a sane colour count 23:56:41 Vorpal: Millions already. 23:56:45 alise, hm 23:56:48 But the only place I can see to set a background is Desktop Patterns. 23:56:48 alise, no clue then 23:56:51 Which has the dithered-solid-colours stuff. 23:56:53 alise, that plaid is quite nice 23:56:59 No it isn't! 23:57:00 in a funky kind of way 23:57:01 It's awful! 23:57:08 alise, it could be worse 23:57:15 alise, replace the red with pink 23:57:17 It could be a hell of a lot better. 23:57:23 that would be worse 23:57:33 alise, and add complementary colours next to each other 23:57:41 that would be much worse 23:57:54 Colours that complement each other are generally considered good to put next to each other... 23:58:13 alise, hm. Maybe I misremembered then 23:58:14 afaict, Ward's Wiki people love Smalltalk 23:58:23 Sgeo: yes, it was born out of C2. 23:58:26 or, no, wait 23:58:27 alise, I suggest some non-matching ones then 23:58:29 what was the project called 23:58:36 alise: Colors that compliment each other are also considered good to put next to each other. 23:58:42 http://lexnet.bravepages.com/HTMLJS.htm "Translating HyperTalk to JavaScript" 23:58:47 Gregor: And force to mate. 23:58:55 "Oh pink, you're so bright and cheerful!" "As are you, yellow!" 23:59:14 Well, surely hyperintelligent shades of blue like to do it? 23:59:27 Yes, but not with just ANY old colour. 23:59:35 alise, they could add tartan with the classical Scottish clan patterns