00:00:03 * Sgeo wonders if the original Smalltalk-80 is still usable 00:00:26 alise, WOT mistrusts bravepages.com 00:00:35 WOT is retarded. 00:00:37 -!- sshc_ has joined. 00:00:54 alise, howso?!?!? 00:01:01 Haha, the amount of ?!s. 00:01:34 alise, so remember I will not hypothetically ssh to you. Under no condition would I let you ssh to me :P Unless you plan to set up ipv6 and ipsec and tunnel ssh over that. Which would probably annoy the hell out of sixxs so not a good idea at all 00:01:57 I mean, just because some WOT commentors think geocities.com is malicious does not mean WOT in general is a bad idea 00:02:10 Sgeo, WOT? 00:02:16 Web Of Trust 00:02:19 mywot.com 00:02:37 Sgeo: For one, instead of "wisdom of the crowds" it's mob rule. For two, yes it /does/; its goodness is directly linked to how good it performs in practice because the WHOLE POINT is letting random people do it. Furthermore, it's simply retarded. It just has no good rationale or anything. It's just a cheap trick to form a corporation based on. 00:02:38 web of trust, isn't that what pgp key signing is supposed to be about 00:02:42 but really fails badly 00:02:50 Nobody with any kind of a brain should use it or think it means anything at all. 00:03:03 Vorpal: no it's some stupid company stealing the name and making it even more retarded 00:03:10 alise, ah 00:03:18 alise, well, it gets some sites wrong, but for the most part... 00:03:40 Vorpal: Here's how it works: "Users tell us whether a site is good or bad. We listen to them, no matter how few or how idiotic they are." 00:04:05 Note that Geocities has a green rating, despite the comments being nutty 00:04:05 Sgeo: And you need it why? Because you use an insecure OS without a virus scanner and also can't think the minimal amount of thinking required to determine whether a website is safe? 00:04:06 alise, huh 00:04:07 It's utterly pointless! 00:04:18 alise, well that wasn't in the same sense as I meant 00:04:34 * Sgeo once again has an operational virus scanner 00:04:34 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:04:35 alise, pgp key signing is in a sense about a web of trust and the model fails badly there too 00:04:45 at least it actually has the whole WEB thing 00:04:59 alise, btw I have a local CA for my lan since yesterday with host x509 certs 00:05:12 alise, this is because I'm playing around with ipsec 00:05:28 (I store the CA stuff on an encrypted fs and so on of course) 00:05:28 Vorpal: btw http://www.retards.org/projects/grackle68k/ 00:05:37 a Mac-like Twitter client for System 6 to OS 9. 00:05:38 alise, ever used encfs? 00:05:57 Imagine if Twitter had been invented when System 6 was out. Grackle68k would have been released. 00:05:58 Vorpal: no 00:06:10 User-facing applications used some resource editor tool? 00:06:11 WTF? 00:06:22 alise, it is fuse and encrypts file data and file names, storing them as files in another dir 00:06:24 Sgeo: No? 00:06:30 It's just a convenience there. 00:06:37 alise, so it doesn't need a disk image and it is on per-file basis in a sense 00:06:38 " It would be nice if you didn't have to use ResEdit, but why not open ResEdit and reminisce anyway?" 00:06:43 "Also, if you use resedit to put your username and password in the obvious STR resource, you won't have to enter it when you start the program." 00:06:47 Reading comprehension! YAY! 00:07:01 But, programs didn't just provide "store name and password" stuff? 00:07:28 Sgeo, you fail at reading 00:07:29 Who the hell said that? 00:07:37 It's someone's pet project, of course it isn't polished. 00:07:51 alise, opengenera badly needs a twitter client I feel 00:07:51 Ok, why does it mention reminiscing about ResEdit? 00:07:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:07:59 Because people used ResEdit a lot. 00:08:08 resedit was actually extremely nice 00:08:13 Non-programming consumers? 00:08:18 Or just programmers 00:08:20 It's called "experienced users". 00:08:31 Someone who would buy an intelligent Mac magazine regularly. 00:08:37 I could fix misaligned dialogs due to i18n and someone not checking that the label fit 00:08:42 Hmm, I guess like regedit 00:08:43 I did that with resedit a few times 00:08:46 alise, ^ 00:08:51 err l10n 00:08:54 not i18n 00:09:11 Sgeo, regedit? what the fuck does that have to do with it 00:09:21 Vorpal, for use by experienced users 00:09:34 Sgeo, there are resource editing tools for windows too 00:09:39 more like those I guess 00:09:51 Sgeo, reshacker iirc was one 00:09:55 or something like that 00:10:34 Sgeo, think along the lines of this: http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/d10resourceeditor.htm 00:10:38 but more advanced 00:10:42 and more useful 00:10:57 Need 00:10:57 More 00:10:58 Food 00:11:03 mhm 00:11:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:11:22 I remember using Borland Resource Workshop on win3.1, but I have no recollection what for. 00:11:27 Maybe to twiddle with some dialogs. 00:11:33 robotfindskitten mac-68k 00:11:34 OH MY GOD YES 00:11:36 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 00:11:38 http://www.retards.org/projects/robotfindskitten-mac68k/ 00:11:59 "There's a bootable disk image with rfk in the downloads section for use with the BasiliskII and vmac emulators." 00:12:01 Who needs other applications? 00:12:40 I am a bit anti-rfk nowadays, because the main rfk maintainer never added my rfk86 to the list of ports. :/ 00:12:48 :D @ rfk.\pi 00:12:53 fizzie: He may be busy with other stuff? 00:13:21 alise, .\pi ? 00:13:31 Vorpal: TeX syntax there 00:13:33 wait I thought it was befunge code first 00:13:35 with the @ 00:13:36 But it's been ages! (He did reply but then nothing happened evar.) 00:13:41 @ = at 00:13:44 fizzie: Awww. 00:13:54 fizzie, maybe remind him? 00:14:21 i like to call my green tea 'biodiesel' 00:14:44 The only command it has is "New Game". Not even an about screen. 00:14:51 I admire that, though ideally, I would not have a "New Game" command. 00:14:56 It would simply be pure Robot Finds Kitten. 00:15:04 *robotfindskitten 00:15:07 *robotfindskitten. 00:15:09 Either you play, or you quit. 00:16:07 [[A gravestone stands here. "Izchak Miller, ascended."]] 00:16:08 Aww. 00:16:50 that's an RfK message? 00:17:04 yeah 00:17:05 *rfk 00:17:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:18:00 alise, you can find that in nethack too of course 00:18:31 it wouldn't be that exact message 00:18:37 ais523, well no 00:19:39 he's alive in nethack, after all 00:20:16 alise, yes but iirc you can also find that on gravestones? 00:20:36 maybe, dunno 00:20:43 http://www.emaculation.com/macfiles/doom.hqx 00:20:44 hells yeah 00:20:48 you'd have to engrave it on one yourself 00:20:55 alise, the difference would be that it isn't "A gravestone stands here." iirc 00:20:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:21:29 I wonder if Nethack-- 00:21:43 Yep! 00:21:45 alise, if playing mac games I can warmly recommend the exile series... Shareware though. And even more so the updated Avernum series, taking it from top down to isometric and improving gameplay 00:21:56 alise, one of the best epic RPG series I ever played 00:21:56 Carbon Port 00:21:57 OS: MacOS 8.1 or later, MacOS 9, MacOS X 00:21:57 ... 00:21:59 Replaces previous Mac "Classic" port. 00:22:00 well, the best 00:22:01 PAH! 00:22:03 alise, ^ 00:22:11 Vorpal: I'm not a huge RPG fan, I'm afraid. 00:22:16 alise, aww 00:22:25 alise, well it is a RPG/adventure mix rather 00:22:30 Holy shit, this means I need to get an OLDER VERSION of Nethack. 00:22:37 I thought it incomprehensible. 00:22:37 * Sgeo just ate 24 Kit-Kat bars 00:22:44 Sgeo: You are going to die 00:22:46 *die. 00:23:03 alise, with an extensive game world and quite open gameplay (though it does converge towards a common goal) 00:23:09 alise, so are you. 00:23:16 Sgeo: You'll die sooner. 00:23:50 alise, in fact let me find a map of the game world from game 1. For most of the game you can move through all of it. So one area is seldom closed off after you left it: 00:24:06 "Sorry, these binaries will not run on 68K-based Macs." 00:24:07 Grr... 00:24:10 At 3.4.0 right now. 00:24:10 alise, http://www.silverchat.com/~silver/Avernum/mainmap1.html 00:24:13 Have to go even older. 00:24:24 Vorpal: Well, yes, that is quite epic. 00:24:33 alise, each of those areas are like 1 pixel = 4 tiles 00:24:38 alise, in the zoomed in map 00:24:38 NetHack3.3.1 for 68K and PPC Macintosh 00:24:41 YAY 00:24:46 Vorpal: Seriously? Jesus. 00:24:48 alise, hmm? 00:25:04 ftp://umn.dl.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/n/ne/nethack/nethack-331-fat.sit 00:25:05 So I have much more than the recommended daily values of total fat for a day 00:25:06 alise, wait, no, 1 block in http://www.silverchat.com/~silver/Avernum/Wrappers1/NepharFort.html = 1 tile 00:25:10 you'd better believe it 00:25:13 alise, in the zoomed out version though... 00:25:20 Is that necessarily fatal, especially when I'm underweight? 00:25:20 alise, and that is the overworld 00:25:25 oh spiderweb software 00:25:31 alise, where your 4 person party fits on one tile 00:25:31 that guy blogs interesting stuff occasionally 00:25:33 alise, good luck going wishless in older versions 00:25:39 alise, yes epicly good RPG 00:25:45 Sgeo: You can't just eat random crap to gain weight :P 00:25:49 alise, in fact best RPG I ever played was avernum 2 00:25:54 alise, aww, why not? :( 00:25:57 But I'm crazily unhealthy and even I wouldn't eat 24 Kit-Kat bars. 00:25:58 Vorpal: I've been thinking about sending a reminder email, but then I wonder if it'd be too naggy. 00:26:03 Sgeo: Ask Ilari. Have fun with that! 00:26:16 fizzie: It's not like you talk to him anyway. 00:26:23 alise, what about space shooting extensive gameworld with *really* open game play 00:26:30 alise, where you can side with either side 00:26:32 Open gameplay? 00:26:36 of the multiple conflicts 00:26:36 Sounds like my sort of thing 00:26:41 Sgeo, it is mac only 00:26:45 ambrosia software 00:26:47 EV Override 00:26:53 * Sgeo bibbles 00:26:55 awesome classic mac game 00:26:57 wait 00:27:03 not sure if it needs a real mac 00:27:09 or if it works in sheepshaver 00:27:13 !c printf("%d",'o'); 00:27:13 it might need a real mac 00:27:16 I don't have room to pirate stuff 00:27:21 111 00:27:25 Sgeo, I believe it is like 32 MB? 00:27:26 !c printf("%x",'o'); 00:27:27 6f 00:27:29 or less 00:27:31 ty EgoBot 00:27:34 Wait WHAT? 00:27:43 Sgeo, this is for classic mac os 00:27:46 32MB for Hackintosh or whatever it's called? 00:27:50 lol 00:27:50 Oh, no 00:27:53 because os x = classic os 00:27:54 Sgeo, I said the download 00:27:55 n/m 00:28:01 alise, I realized 00:28:13 and I meant the ev override download size 00:28:15 I'm not good with all this mac stuff, although I have a book somewhere... 00:28:16 it is shareware 00:28:16 http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/nethack/nethack/3.3.1/nethack-331-fat.sit 00:28:17 so... 00:28:17 Very old book 00:28:18 actually working URL 00:28:39 "This product is not OS X compatible." http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evo/ 00:28:46 hmph, that Doom crashes Basilisk II 00:29:03 alise, it is the best space exploration / epic story / space battle game I ever played 00:29:12 alise, has some RPG qualities maybe 00:29:19 though I would not call it an RPG 00:29:20 in any sense 00:29:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_Velocity_Override 00:29:33 Speaking of maps, there's a rather funny map of Morrowind with the Google Maps eggine, at http://www.uesp.net/maps/mwmap/mwmap.shtml -- it's less epic in scope, of course. 00:29:38 Mac OS 8.5 For Dummies 00:29:42 lol @ NetHack Defaults 00:29:55 "# SCCS Id:" 00:30:03 fizzie, morrowind? 00:30:10 oh sweet! you can enable a tty-style interface 00:30:17 as opposed to the multi-window one 00:30:31 Vorpal: A game in the Elder Scrolls saga. A modern thing, 2002 or so. 00:30:32 "If you don't know how to turn your Mac on, get help." 00:30:38 "Don't feel bad." 00:30:41 Sgeo, where did it say that? 00:30:49 Chapter 1 00:30:58 Sgeo, chapter 1 of *what* 00:31:02 Mac OS 8.5 For Dummies 00:31:05 The book I just said 00:31:06 ah 00:31:12 where did you find it 00:31:22 On my neglected bookshelf 00:31:31 alise, anyway if you can somehow get the chance to play ev override it is a must 00:32:04 alise, the FOSS 3D game vegastrike had kind of same ambitions I feel but it seems dead and didn't nearly reach the same levels 00:32:21 in fact the mission system was very incomplete in vegastrike 00:32:25 I love the Vegastrike music 00:32:29 The game, eh. 00:32:35 Sgeo, nah. I prefer wesnoth music 00:32:42 Wesnoth music is great too 00:32:49 Hell, all game music is great 00:32:52 Sgeo, the game *could* have been awesome with more work 00:32:58 it had the potential 00:33:07 I think I opened it.. once, maybe 00:33:20 Sgeo, I played it quite a bit, still quite fun 00:34:30 EV override is top-down 2D though 00:34:41 but awesome 00:34:57 * Sgeo curses his toe 00:35:03 Oh, and there's the Ultima 7 map, which is a 24576x24576 pixel image. 00:35:09 It occurs to me that I have ~6 hours of school on Mondays 00:35:40 ^show 00:35:40 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord test 00:35:53 ais523: We have that thing, too. 00:35:55 ^ord o 00:35:56 111 00:36:04 It doesn't do hex, though. 00:36:24 alise, anyway, you heard of spiderweb software before? 00:36:26 What's the syntax for other-based numbers in Smalltalk? 5r1234? 00:36:35 Or am I misremembering some other language's feature? 00:36:42 Vorpal: yeah. his blog is quite well-read 00:36:48 Sgeo: isn't it base#num? 00:36:51 alise, a one guy company? 00:36:53 really? 00:36:56 Vorpal: yes. 00:37:02 alise, if so how the frack did he pull off those games 00:37:06 alise: So, this is now officially the least-sucky desktop experience I have seen on Linux. 00:37:17 http://merd.sourceforge.net/pixel/language-study/syntax-across-languages-per-language/Smalltalk.html 00:37:23 http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/ 00:37:24 the guy 00:37:27 pikhq: what is? 00:37:29 XFCE? 00:37:30 alise, there is extensive dialogue, lots of detailed seemingly hand made maps 00:37:31 Yeah. 00:37:32 and so on 00:37:53 pikhq: it may not be sucky, but it's not very ... useful either 00:37:56 like, it does very little for you 00:37:57 i dunno 00:37:59 alise, surely it would take a 2 or 3 person team, one artist, one programmer and someone working on map and stories 00:38:05 It's beautiful: there's hardly anything to it! 00:38:06 alise, I can't imagine it being done with less 00:38:12 alise, even if he never sleeps 00:38:14 Wait 00:38:22 I just realized the source of the thing I posted 00:38:29 Vorpal: or, maybe he just works on games for years and years :P 00:38:34 pikhq: You will grow to mildly detest it soon enough. 00:38:35 alise, it's from the people behind your favorite language! 00:38:36 Yes, mild detest. 00:38:43 XFCE is a strange void of emotion. 00:38:47 alise, there are too many in the avernum series for that now 00:38:50 alise: You're talking to someone who used Ratpoison for years. 00:38:53 merd isn't my favourite language 00:38:55 :P 00:39:04 "Does very little" is *not* a bad thing to me. 00:39:14 Vorpal: "Since then, has written many games, including the Exile, Geneforge, and Avernum series and Nethergate: Resurrection." 00:39:16 pikhq: Oh, yes. 00:39:19 But it does very little in an odd kind of way. 00:39:21 I can't articulate it. 00:39:44 pikhq: BTW, the /best/ Linux UI is ROX Desktop. Unfortunately, it's sort of incomplete. 00:39:52 Specifically, it lacks a window manager. Or much software at all. 00:39:59 (It's heavily inspired by RISC OS.) 00:40:36 pikhq: It's a filesystem-based DE (rather than an abstract, window-based one like GNOME/KDE/XFCE/etc.) 00:40:47 [[The first of these features is support for Application Directories. An application directory is a directory which contains an entire application -- its documentation, binaries, source code and so on. When you open an application directory in the filer the application is run. This has some interesting implications:]] ;; it's like OS X .apps, but much better done 00:41:12 e.g. root privilege for installing apps is never really exercised (you can do without it anyway but it's a pain) 00:41:26 you don't really need a package manager since it's all copying/deleting, and it's easy to have multiple versions of the same app 00:41:51 oh, and it has a standardised documentation system (choosing Help in the context menu opens the Help subdirectory of the app) 00:42:01 this also leads to easy support for things like Zero Install and the like 00:42:04 alise, geneforge rocks too 00:42:09 alise, only played a demo version 00:42:18 pikhq: Oh, and the rather awesome "drag-and-drop saving". 00:42:22 alise, what is "since then" relative btw? 00:42:36 You /drag the open file/ from the application into a folder. It prompts for a name. And that's it, it's saved. 00:42:52 Funny what taking a metaphor and then rolling with it can leave you with. 00:44:13 alise, and yes the avernum series (1, 2, 3, blades of avernum [those ran on classic Mac OS, never played avernum 4 or later]), and especially avernum 2 is my all time favourite of computer games. In all genres 00:44:18 alise, what is "since then" relative btw? 00:44:19 eh? 00:44:20 oh 00:44:22 since founding Spiderweb 00:44:24 ah 00:44:43 Sgeo: well if my lotion suggestion from yesterday didn't work, i suppose the next step is amputation. hth. 00:44:59 Oerjan Urology 00:44:59 alise, warning though, avernum 1 and 2 runs perfectly on sheepshaver. avernum 3 only with sdl (but that crashes due to bugginess) and blades of avernum not at all 00:45:05 so for the last two I get out my ibook 00:45:11 oerjan, it isn't working permanently 00:45:35 alise: now you're just talking piss 00:46:06 alise, and after the avernum series comes nethack on shared place with ev override 00:46:23 different genres though 00:46:47 NWN ranks up near the top too I have to say. Top 5 definitely 00:47:27 I have to say that the story in the original NWN campaign is rather shallow though 00:47:30 ais523, ^ 00:47:41 Vorpal: it's not really about the story 00:47:50 ais523, hm 00:48:16 ais523, what exactly is it about then 00:48:21 Gameplay...? 00:48:31 well which parts of it 00:48:37 All ... of it...? 00:48:42 the story and advancing it is a part of gameplay as well 00:48:44 alise, ^ 00:49:06 Yeah, because Doom's story had an effect on its gameplay. 00:49:12 well no 00:49:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:49:27 but the story in NWN does 00:49:55 alise, you can't say that the story of lemmings or the story of final fantasy 3 have the same importance to the gameplay surely? 00:50:03 Lemmings had a /story/? 00:50:17 alise, iirc yes, like a paragraph or something 00:50:20 might misremember though 00:50:26 alise, still you get my point? 00:50:33 Yeah, yeah. 00:51:08 avernum has a rather deep and epic story which is intricately woven into the other aspects of gameplay. 00:51:41 alise, avernum 2 is one of the few games I thought after playing "there is no way this could have been made even better than it was" 00:53:11 the other few ones were other games I thought that about were avernum 3 and ev override. (Avernum 1 had some rough edges in the interface compared to the later games in the series, that meant it could be improved, but only in minor aspects) 00:53:13 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:53:31 alise, really you should try the demos in sheepshaver when you get it running. 00:53:40 Possibly. 00:54:08 alise, exile, while basically the same story and working under 68k, are less well balanced gameplay-wise and has a more annoying user interface. 00:54:34 I still want some more programs for System 7 :( 00:54:50 alise, you don't have it yet? 00:54:55 I do. 00:54:58 But I want more programs to run on it. 00:55:08 alise, 68k or ppc? 00:55:18 68k 00:55:24 hm 00:55:45 alise, I suspect ev override won't work in sheepshaver, though I haven't tried 00:56:03 alise, it has a rather curious shareware mechanism though 00:56:15 "MacSSH" 00:56:16 AWESOME 00:56:36 alise, after the time expired a space pirate starts messing up for you in the game. 00:56:50 like credit fraud with your bank account there 00:56:54 and shooting you down 00:56:56 and such 00:57:18 alise, before it expires he sometimes fly by you and reminds you to pay 00:58:12 * alise tries to find Graphing Calculator 00:58:26 alise, not in 68k iirc? 00:58:30 alise, it was PPC only 00:58:35 alise, to show case the new PPC 00:58:41 the abilities of it I mean 00:58:47 alise, pretty sure I read that somewhere 00:59:08 Feel left out of the math graphing fun? The original 1.0 version did exist for 68k Macs, and you can download it here from Pacifit Tech's web site (scroll to the bottom). 00:59:10 http://www.avernum.com/avernum6/images/A6StoreRoom.jpg <-- that looks more like genforge style graphics than avernum style to me 00:59:11 well ... there you go :P 00:59:19 alise, huh 00:59:41 alise, they need to learn about 00:59:41 http://www.pacifict.com/images/taylor.gif 00:59:42 :P 00:59:48 image 00:59:52 they do 00:59:52 http://www.pacifict.com/Secrets.html#Taylor 00:59:53 they link to 00:59:55 which is quite close 01:00:00 wait no 01:00:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:00:02 alise, you said "scroll to the bottom" 01:00:02 that's not for 1.0 01:00:02 nm 01:00:04 alise, :P 01:00:14 alise, that is what I commented upon 01:00:16 -!- augur has joined. 01:00:33 Version 1.0 is the original release which has shipped on over 10,000,000 machines since 1994. It is the last version available for 680x0 Macintosh computers. 01:00:33 Download 1.0 for 680x0 01:00:33 Download 1.0 for Power Macintosh 01:00:38 http://www.pacifict.com/gc68k.sit.bin 01:00:39 http://www.pacifict.com/gc10.sit.hqx 01:01:23 heh 01:01:30 it tells me i should use the one designed for macintoshes with FPUs :) 01:01:33 for better performance 01:01:36 ofc that's not distributed it seems 01:02:03 Vorpal: works great 01:02:15 alise, nice 01:02:35 can simplify and everything 01:03:10 alise, also are you sure about your hypothetical interest in myst? After all I seem to remember you said that you didn't have the patience to play it? 01:03:27 Vorpal: I only want it to experience the hypercard amazingness. 01:03:46 alise, that makes me sad 01:04:14 Aww. 01:04:23 wow 01:04:30 translucency on system 7 01:04:31 alise, play Uru! 01:04:35 01:04:39 NuCalc is sweet 01:04:59 alise, it feels all wrong to use the myst cd in this computer 01:05:05 alise, it doesn't sound right 01:05:14 it doesn't sound like a perfoma 4x drive seeking 01:05:28 which is something I *strongly* associate with myst 01:05:35 alise, :( 01:05:38 haha 01:05:46 alise, it just isn't the same without that sound 01:06:20 alise, besides graphics are dithered... They don't look halfway as good on a super sharp TFT as they did on that old CRT 01:06:59 Just apply some gaussian blur on it. 01:07:03 fizzie, hm 01:07:10 fizzie, what about the CD sound 01:07:20 fizzie, a faint hum from the CRT also 01:07:24 that is required 01:07:36 Vorpal: record the CD sound, patch it to play it and wait a few seconds at scene changes 01:07:39 record a faint CRT hum too 01:07:39 though getting the CD noise right is WAY more important 01:07:42 If you can find a Performa, maybe you could record the sounds and play them back. 01:07:45 alise, I don't have the performa any more 01:07:48 sold it years ago 01:07:51 lol @ arbitrary delay though 01:08:01 fizzie, didn't you have one? 01:08:15 fizzie, I believe it was almost same model 01:09:06 ais523: you know the mathematica thing where you can animate a graph/plot based on a variable increasing? 01:09:07 Vorpal: I sold mine too, some four or so years ago. I only keep one machine per cpu family (excepting x86), and the iBook was easier to store. :p 01:09:16 fizzie, aww 01:09:17 alise: yes? 01:09:17 yeah, NuCalc had that in 1994. 01:09:20 ais523: ^ :P 01:09:23 doesn't surprise me 01:09:48 Vorpal: It went to a good home, I'm sure. 01:10:17 fizzie, :/ 01:10:58 fizzie, what is CD-ROM sector size? (data) 01:11:20 for dd copying the myst cd (for backup purposes only) 01:13:55 Vorpal: 01:13:57 SmoothType 2.3.1 Now with subpixel smoothing for LCD screens! 01:13:57 Brings Mac OS X style font smoothing to System 7 through Mac OS 9.2. 01:14:01 Vorpal: Where's your god now? 01:14:37 alise, hm? 01:14:47 Vorpal: You said 9 was good because it had antialiasing. 01:14:48 alise, well yes there are always madmens out there 01:14:50 Well, so does 7 up! 01:14:53 alise, stock yes 01:14:58 stock is what coulds 01:14:58 2048 for ISO data tracks, IIRC. 01:15:00 counts* 01:15:10 (Bytes.) 01:15:17 fizzie, right 01:15:17 Pfft. Who didn't have a few extensions in thos edays? 01:15:21 *those days? 01:15:26 alise, hm... 01:15:37 alise, well.. stock OS came with several 01:15:44 Vorpal: A bigger issue is that I'm not certain it works with the default fonts. 01:15:50 alise, ah 01:15:55 * Sgeo now worships Trog 01:16:11 Or maybe it does. 01:16:50 It does work with them. 01:17:03 Although the default font is slightly hideous in it. 01:17:23 Chicago, that is. 01:18:03 The subpixel smoothing is... uh, unique. 01:18:14 Very ... very blue. 01:18:29 Vorpal: But still, this is a CRT, it blurs away all the imperfections. 01:18:52 alise, you are on a CRT?! 01:19:01 Hypothetically, if I had started to download that mac myst .dmg from the nautical bit-sharing place, I estimate it would now be at around 46% done, and have an ETA of 1 hour, 45 minutes. But I stress that this is a purely hypothetical scenario. 01:19:02 No. 01:19:06 But an old Mac user is. 01:19:10 alise, hm 01:19:30 Hypothetically, I have sex with, and then kill, young children. 01:19:34 Hypothetically, mind you. 01:19:42 LOL @ 2-bit smoothing 01:19:47 That does not work, SmoothType. 01:19:53 fizzie, hm I have a iso here for backup purposes 01:19:54 It literally destroys the text. 01:19:58 * Vorpal sha512sums 01:19:59 Utterly unreadable, not just in the "really ugly" sense. 01:20:04 Some characters are actually unrecognisable. 01:20:23 sha512sum /dev/sr0 myst.iso 01:20:25 now to wait 01:20:34 alise, the ISO is 549 MB btw 01:20:39 the antialiasing helps NuCalc a lot 01:21:13 alise, so you said system 7 has as good AA as OS 9 eh? 01:21:30 Sure, if you use a good font. 01:21:36 Vorpal: anyway, that's just 2-bit 01:21:38 i.e. two colour antialiasing 01:21:39 alise, using chigago 01:21:40 i.e. stupidest idea ever 01:21:44 4-bit smoothing looks fine 01:21:48 Vorpal: it's only bad on an lcd 01:21:51 since the sharp edges look weird 01:21:53 on a crt, it'd be great 01:22:01 especially at large type sizes it's very smooth 01:22:03 alise, I only used OS 9 on a LCD 01:22:15 meh, it's still good on an lcd 01:22:16 alise, as in, ibook first gen 01:22:16 just a bit weird 01:22:28 well that's such a bad lcd who can tell :) 01:22:37 " It literally destroys the text." " Some characters are actually unrecognisable." ... " just a bit weird" 01:22:40 alise, XD 01:22:44 that's 2-bit, Vorpal 01:22:44 as in 01:22:44 http://zem.fi/rfk86/screen_splash.png -- anti-aliasing on a technically 1-bit screen. (In the "rfk86" text, on a slow enough LCD so that you can get shades by alternating frames. The screenshot's just emulated, of course.) 01:22:47 black and white antialiasing 01:22:49 it has three modes 01:22:50 alise, oh 01:22:52 4-bit (reasonable greyscale) 01:23:04 2-bit (WTF????? Why did he even release this??? It's literally useless) 01:23:13 Subpixel (I guess it's okay if you have a really weird TFT) 01:23:26 fizzie, known good sha512sum for iso of myst with dd: 07c4103829b4dd17dcee3245d80e8c35d0663b06c632c4cdc56c81b8588cea5554af1e8b9dff1f617912bf7606078004731f8a939081a12a59121c4c95eb11f8 01:23:33 fizzie, if that is of any use to you 01:23:35 sha512sum. you're crazy 01:23:42 alise, why is that? 01:23:45 :P 01:23:51 alise, md5sum would be crazier 01:23:54 hmm, a good checksum hash would have similar strings have similar hashes 01:23:59 why? so you can measure how damaged it is 01:24:03 by how much the hashes differ 01:24:10 although collisions would be deadly 01:24:18 alise, that defeats the purpose of hashes yeah 01:25:00 I can check against the hypothetical .dmg when it's done, but it might of course be a slightly different release, and anyway I'd have to unwrap the .dmg compression I think it has. 01:25:44 fizzie, you mean you could hypothetically check against the hypothetical .dmg when it's hypothetically done? 01:25:52 Hypoyes. 01:26:08 hah 01:26:12 did anyone make a nicer window manager for classic mac os? :P 01:26:21 fizzie, that would be less than a normal yes? 01:26:29 say ... Basilisk II/Sheepshaver don't necessarily have to run Mac OS, do they? 01:26:31 fizzie, using the usual hypo/hyper pair 01:26:35 anyone want to run Debian/PPC? :-D 01:26:42 It's 396.6 megahybytes, and the hyploader said it's from a 1993 Hyst release. 01:26:47 alise, I doubt that works 01:26:53 why? 01:26:57 it doesn't do anything mac-specific does it? 01:26:59 the emulators that is 01:27:10 alise, well... they don't emulate the real hardware 01:27:11 Cyst, the long-awaited sequel to Myst 01:27:12 they use the rom 01:27:17 Vorpal: well, true 01:27:18 alise, yes I think so 01:27:19 PearPC runs Debian/PPC, IIRC. 01:27:27 Vorpal: but what about the PPC bootloader that runs as an extension or whatever 01:27:29 or an app 01:27:30 PPC linux that is 01:27:40 it still emulates all the instructions, right? 01:27:41 alise, after all you can't do 9.1 or later in sheepshaver because 9.1 starts using the MMU 01:27:48 hmm 01:28:03 alise, which sheepshaver doesn't emulate more than required for 9.0 and older 01:28:09 which was just filling in a single page iirc 01:28:20 alise, and linux probably wants a good MMU 01:28:28 alise, so yeah not likely to get that working 01:28:56 My Troll Berserker is dead 01:29:05 Sgeo, what game? 01:29:11 DCSS 01:29:58 Oh, and qemu-ppc also runs Linux/PPC distros. 01:30:27 xz -9 -e myst.iso 01:30:30 best to save space 01:30:37 on the backup 01:31:13 fizzie: Well, that much is obvious. 01:31:35 alise, wait, do your graphics system and monitor support at least 256 colours. Otherwise you won't be able to run myst 01:31:38 better check to make sure 01:32:00 hypothetically that is 01:32:20 Vorpal: They support at least 257! 01:32:21 Wowzers! 01:32:51 indeed that's impressive 01:34:09 Heh, qemu-system-m68k emulates oh-so-popular-and-useful hardware: http://p.zem.fi/qemu-sys-m68k 01:34:58 fizzie, never heard of the two latter ones 01:35:29 it still emulates all the instructions, right? <-- and I don't think so either. 01:35:43 alise, you can't run macbug in either of basiliskII or sheepshaver 01:36:05 err forgot a plural s there I think 01:36:10 "syborg Syborg (Symbian Virtual Platform)" (from qemu-system-arm); wonder who's responsible for the name. 01:36:57 fizzie, maybe the same guy as liboobs? 01:37:02 (yes that exists) 01:37:06 (some gnome thingy) 01:37:10 [[Any body suspended in space will remain in space until made aware of its situation. (The character walks off the edge of a cliff, remains suspended in midair, and doesn't fall until he looks down.) 01:37:10 Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter (the "silhouette of passage"). 01:37:10 Certain bodies can pass through solid walls painted to resemble tunnel entrances; others cannot. (Corollary: Portable holes work.) 01:37:10 All principles of gravity are negated by fear. (i.e., scaring someone causes them to jump impossibly high in the air.) 01:37:12 Any violent rearrangement of feline matter is impermanent. (In other words, cats heal fast and/or have an infinite number of lives.) 01:37:15 Everything falls faster than an anvil. (A falling anvil will always land directly upon the character's head, squashing him flat or driving him into the ground.)]] 01:37:44 Sounds like that cartoon physics axioms page. 01:37:58 'Tis. 01:38:07 Specific reference to cartoon physics extends back at least to June of 1980, when an article "O'Donnell's Laws of Cartoon Motion"[2] appeared in Esquire. A version printed in 1994 by the IEEE in a journal for engineers helped spread the word among the technical crowd, which has expanded and refined the idea. These laws are outlined on dozens of websites. 01:38:07 O'Donnell's examples include: 01:38:10 [then that] 01:38:13 spam 01:38:18 link this instead 01:39:28 i don't have a link 01:40:27 mhm 01:41:04 525M → 307M, not too bad 01:45:26 Vorpal: challenge: recreate the Good Easy -- http://web.archive.org/web/20080328152949/http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/goodeasy.txt 01:46:51 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:47:36 OrgASM is a set of files comprising a Universal Table driven Cross 01:47:36 Assembler for all MicroProcessors. The assembler is a port of the DOS TASM 01:47:36 with a graphic interface and EPROM downloading added. This suite runs under 01:47:36 Macintosh Programmers Workshop (now supplied free by Apple) and may also be 01:47:36 integrated into BBEdit using the ToolServer menu. All microprocessor tables 01:47:37 are in external text files and may extended or customised by the user. 01:47:40 TASM for Macintosh! 01:49:11 "BBEdit requires a PowerPC processor." 01:49:12 stfu :< 01:49:23 I'll just use 3.5.1 then 01:51:06 hey alise 01:51:12 remind me of your opinions on scheme 01:51:29 cool shit! useless in today's stupid software culture 01:51:32 R6RS is abhorrent 01:51:55 so you're an R5RS fan then 01:52:04 Vorpal: challenge: recreate the Good Easy -- http://web.archive.org/web/20080328152949/http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/goodeasy.txt <-- ? 01:52:53 augur: of course. who isn't? 01:52:59 alise: :) 01:53:04 Vorpal: ? 01:53:12 alise, what about it 01:53:17 alise, it isn't how I like it 01:53:20 alise: im teaching a SICP class to some friends 01:53:21 Vorpal: it would just be fun to try and recreate it 01:53:25 alise, so I don't take that challenge 01:53:40 alise, I want resedit alias on desktop for example 01:55:47 Fun fact: The Finder has no preferences. 01:56:14 doesnt it? 01:56:25 augur: not in classic Mac OS, at least 01:56:32 o ok 01:56:32 (pah OS X! barely even counts as Mac OS) 01:56:38 (I see no traces of System Software 6 in there!) 01:56:39 true enough 01:56:45 HOORAY NEXTSTEP 01:56:47 you can't, say, make it show hidden files 01:56:52 coppro: there are no hidden files 01:57:01 * augur caresses his NeXTstation 01:57:05 also, it has one or two View options, but they apply to the current folder 01:57:12 specifically, it's just icon vs list view 01:58:22 alise: oh, classic 01:58:34 it doesn't hide .* then? 01:58:40 coppro: it's not Unix-based; why would it? 01:58:46 dunno 01:58:49 Windows doesn't hide .* either 01:59:02 in a more subtle sense it has a great number of hidden files, i.e. resource forks 01:59:05 and those are quite hard to get at 01:59:24 Vorpal: wow, you can get Network Time for OS 7 :) 01:59:35 Network Time contacts a time server using the Apple MacTCP network software to get the correct time of day. Network Time automatically adjusts your clock taking into consideration the time zone and the daylight savings time rules that you configure using the Network Time control panel. 02:00:00 proper NTP and everything 02:02:11 Vorpal: wow, you can get Network Time for OS 7 :) <-- hm nice 02:02:22 alise, won't need it in sheepshaver or basiliskII 02:02:32 alise, I don't think drifting is a problem in them 02:02:51 alise, the ROM stuff is too high level for that to become a problem for the system clock 02:02:59 you can work around it basically 02:10:22 night 02:10:33 alise, see you tomorrow then 02:10:38 hypothetically 02:10:40 farlintog 02:10:41 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:10:47 alise, what? 02:10:54 grotylin! 02:11:07 alise, rot13? 02:11:17 larkinmo. 02:11:20 *larkinmot. 02:11:25 alise, I'm to 02:11:28 too* 02:11:30 tried to work this out 02:11:47 I don't have rot13(1) on here 02:11:52 alise, so whatever 02:12:04 it's not rot 13. 02:12:11 alise, what is it then 02:12:33 nothing 02:12:34 at all 02:13:24 oh, random then 02:13:40 night 02:15:03 http://www.theonion.com/articles/bush-our-long-national-nightmare-of-peace-and-pros,464/ This was prescient. Fuck. 02:16:38 pikhq: video game censorship laws before SCOTUS... whee 02:16:48 "Much work lies ahead of us: The gap between the rich and the poor may be wide, be there's much more widening left to do. We must squander our nation's hard-won budget surplus on tax breaks for the wealthiest 15 percent. And, on the foreign front, we must find an enemy and defeat it." 02:16:54 THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE 02:16:55 NOT REALITY 02:16:57 A JOKE 02:18:47 * coppro flees to Europe 02:19:09 coppro: but you're in Canada, dude. 02:19:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:19:44 well, you wouldn't flee to Europe if you were already there 02:19:50 alise: Yes! Right next to them! 02:20:00 xD 02:20:25 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:20:52 The only reason I'm not actually afraid of an American invasion is because Europe exists! 02:22:28 coppro: Oh, you guys are sure to be way down the list. Likewise with Europe. 02:22:58 We prefer targets that won't actually fight back hardcore. Which is why we avoid nuclear powers. 02:23:07 And pretty much any developed nation. 02:23:41 -!- Gregor has joined. 02:26:18 pikhq: hmm... in Haskell, how would you code something that generates [(Int(eger),Char)] such that the integer at position n is the number of alphabetical characters proceeding it, plus 1? 02:26:35 erm 02:26:38 proceeding it and including it 02:26:39 plus 0 02:26:54 i.e. "a,!bc" -> [(1,'a'),(1,','),(1,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')] 02:32:45 pikhq: /we/ can't fight back 02:33:27 the only real reason we won't get attacked every is because it would alienate the planet 02:33:31 *ever 02:38:47 !haskell import Data.Char; munch l = zip (scanl (+) 1 $ map (fromEnum . isAlpha) l) l; main = print $ munch "a,!bc" 02:38:56 [(1,'a'),(2,','),(2,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')] 02:39:28 oerjan: thou failest so 02:39:31 although actually 02:39:34 it doesn't matter in this case 02:39:34 so thx 02:39:44 um wait you said preceeding but meant preceding or same 02:39:53 well actually it works fine here 02:39:55 proceeding it and including it 02:40:00 thanks 02:40:06 zip =<< scanl (+) 1 . map (fromEnum . isAlpha) 02:40:07 fwiw 02:40:15 !haskell import Data.Char; munch l = zip (scanl1 (+) $ map (fromEnum . isAlpha) l) l; main = print $ munch "a,!bc" 02:40:21 [(1,'a'),(1,','),(1,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')] 02:40:26 argh 02:40:34 that's perfect 02:40:36 er wait that was right 02:40:36 why are you going argh 02:40:47 compared with the wrong line :D 02:40:58 coppro: You guys have money. Our preferred targets have starvation. 02:41:07 -!- kwertii has joined. 02:41:46 * coppro remembers the Canadian Caper 02:42:11 alise: using the -> monad would require another import btw 02:42:15 Besides, you guys burned down the White House. Clearly you can fight back. 02:42:25 oerjan: yeah, indeed 02:43:28 some people _might_ consider using fromEnum on a Bool a bit hacky ;D 02:44:06 haha wow 02:44:09 i just noticed that 02:44:21 oerjan: well the booleans are just N mod 2 right???? 02:44:28 totally mathematically justified dude 02:44:46 presumably 02:45:19 mustified 02:45:20 pikhq: mercenaries 02:48:09 oerjan: Zqxv wkdian qae kgykaga odxr boeg lw ynpa. Qyh xhrxsignmgu rlcesrdmi evc jbp. 02:48:42 coppro: Yeah, we've got mercenaries too. 02:48:53 All over Iraq, in fact. 02:49:01 gah do we have any rot13 bot 02:49:14 !help userinterps 02:49:15 userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp. 02:49:24 !userinterps 02:49:25 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 02:49:38 !rot13 Zqxv wkdian qae kgykaga odxr boeg lw ynpa. Qyh xhrxsignmgu rlcesrdmi evc jbp. 02:49:40 Mdki jxqvna dnr xtlxntn bqke obrt yj lacn. Dlu kuekfvtazth eyprfeqzv rip woc. 02:49:45 argh 02:50:05 ok so presumably that was related to your haskell question 02:50:19 oerjan: only to make writing cyphers easy 02:50:26 previously the punctuation was messing up the count 02:50:33 hm 02:50:53 * oerjan is too lazy to try harder 02:51:29 xbaavgvun, zvaanfnzn. xvklbh g'bh lnkghgrveh xn. 02:54:49 !rot13 xbaavgvun, zvaanfnzn. xvklbh g'bh lnkghgrveh xn. 02:54:49 konnitiha, minnasama. kixyou t'ou yaxtuteiru ka. 02:55:01 pikhq: either lojban or my cypher? 02:55:03 *cipher 02:55:23 that looks too japanese to be an accident 02:55:32 It is axiomatic that well-encrypted text is indistinguishable from Lojban. 02:55:32 ah, yes 02:56:15 hm... 02:56:17 `echo hi 02:56:26 oerjan: I just thought rot13'd Japanese would look funny. And it did. 02:56:39 No output. 02:56:53 alise: LOJBANCYPHER 02:56:58 `quote 02:57:14 No output. 02:57:15 Gregor: ^ 02:57:21 konnitiha, minnasama. kixyou t'ou yaxtuteiru ka. 02:57:21 is 02:57:24 jmkjdnbzr, cxbamdkvi. roccrw u'ot wxtoomwzhj yn 02:57:25 in mine 02:57:32 this probably makes it easy to decode. 02:58:03 well given you already revealed you needed the positions... 02:58:46 quite 03:01:04 oerjan: i assume you've decoded it, then 03:02:25 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:03:04 >_> 03:03:28 -!- Gregor has joined. 03:03:51 oerjan: <_< 03:04:10 Sgeo: pikhq: I'm about to play NetHack from the comfortable interface of a 68k Macintosh on nethack.eu. 03:04:34 Yay, alise is finally using a server 03:04:49 only for this 03:04:54 Ooh, colorful screen 03:05:03 Sorry, no games available for viewing 03:05:28 yeah, sec 03:05:57 Also, try Crawl 03:06:01 Troll Berserkers are fun 03:06:09 ok, about to start 03:06:25 now to get graphics to work 03:06:29 I'm alise68k 03:06:33 s wasn't stripping anything 03:06:37 wow 03:06:39 ibmgraphics works 03:06:46 are you connected? 03:06:48 Yes 03:06:58 And PuTTY was set up for IBMGraphics 03:07:13 And not DECgraphics apparently 03:07:22 looks like i have to use the ansi PC font to get any kind of graphics 03:07:36 which is slightly problematic as it doesn't scale well 03:07:58 Is it possible for you to put Dejavu Sans Mono on? 03:08:07 haha 03:08:08 "no" 03:08:12 and besides, it wouldn't have the right charset 03:08:17 this one has the ansi ones mapped to the right ones 03:08:18 Hmm? 03:08:21 so it works with decgraphics 03:08:25 *ibmgraphics 03:08:27 Sgeo: no unicode in old mac os... 03:08:35 Dejavu Sans Mono works fine with IBMgraphics for me... hmm 03:08:45 I thought IBMgraphics didn't use unicode? 03:08:49 * Sgeo is thoroughly confused 03:08:58 it doesn't, which is why i'm using it 03:08:59 Yet happy that he knows how to spell thoroughly 03:09:09 tl;dr putty does clever stuff 03:09:21 Ah 03:10:22 this works surprisingly well 03:10:57 You should always use a server ;) 03:11:06 bullshit 03:11:07 Although really, nethack.eu seems a bit inactive 03:11:11 i meant "on the macintosh" 03:11:16 nethack.eu is the only option for people in europe 03:11:20 nethack.alt.org is impossibly slow 03:11:44 Is crawl.akrasiac.org impossibly slow for Europeans? 03:12:03 WHY DOESN'T NETHACK.EU HAVE STRIPPING? 03:12:18 no grpahics is easiest with this 03:12:20 Oh, you had both DEC and IBM on at once? 03:12:22 Sgeo: stripping? 03:12:30 oh, s 03:12:32 Yeah 03:12:33 and no, i didn't 03:12:38 alise: nethack.fi is a different option in europe 03:12:46 but it's even more inactive than nethack.eu 03:12:48 So then why did it stop being weird yet you were using DEC? 03:12:55 god knows 03:12:56 ais523, more inactive than dead? 03:13:21 ais523: this may be the first time anyone's played a recent version of NetHack on a 68k Mac OS. 03:13:25 nethack.eu isn't dead, Sgeo 03:13:26 consider 03:13:29 it's 3:13 am in the UK 03:13:35 even later/earlier in other parts of europe 03:13:39 Hmm, true 03:15:11 "alise68k" is your NEU username? 03:15:16 ais523: on this machine it is 03:15:32 people normally share NetHack accounts across machines 03:15:36 it's one of the reasons to play online 03:15:36 I have no graphics on atm; I can use IBMgraphics, but only with a font with awkward sizes (multiples of 8pt or multiples of 10pt) 03:15:40 ais523: yes, but I forgot my password to "alise". 03:15:42 sue me 03:16:15 i'm only playing for the novelty of the machine, anyway :P 03:19:09 Tired? 03:19:11 Never seen that before. 03:19:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:19:42 magic trap, ok 03:19:46 I have now designed all of the blackboard bold letters, except for "S". 03:19:54 you're /making your own typeface/? 03:20:44 alise: Yes 03:20:54 Here it is, so far: http://sprunge.us/HKfN 03:21:05 Sgeo: I'll try Crawl now. Where did you say? 03:21:19 crawk.akrasiac.org 03:21:20 Now I learned METAFONT, and really it is best program for designing a typeface. 03:21:21 ssh though 03:21:25 zzo38: And webmath_bbb? 03:21:28 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:21:28 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:21:30 -!- EgoBot has joined. 03:21:31 -!- HackEgo has joined. 03:21:36 Sgeo: That's okay; I'm using MacSSH. 03:21:55 Wait, how'd your NH char die? 03:21:57 I wasn't watching 03:22:00 I #quat. 03:22:05 http://sprunge.us/caVi 03:22:12 Also, *crawl., presumably. 03:22:25 Yeah 03:22:40 zzo38: Care to make a .dvi or .ps showcasing these characters? 03:22:48 Sgeo: User/pass? 03:22:51 joshua/joshua 03:23:21 The connection ends immediately. Hm. 03:23:50 Do you have METAFONT? If you have METAFONT, generate the .dvi by yourself. 03:24:05 I didn't typo crawl.akrasiac.org besides the crawl, did I? 03:24:10 ^copy/pasted from the website 03:25:11 You can make any suggestion for improvement, if you have any suggestion about the typeface, and other comment, just suggest it, or else write a code and I might include it if I want to 03:25:21 Perhaps it dislikes my SSH client. 03:25:25 Sgeo: any other Crawl servers? 03:25:30 zzo38: I don't have METAFONT, which is the issue. 03:25:36 alise: What SSH client are you using? 03:25:40 It would be quite convenient if you could prepare a .dvi. 03:25:44 zzo38: MacSSH on Mac OS 7.6.1. 03:25:49 alise: Do you have a DVI viewing software? If so, yes I will post it 03:25:56 CDO and.. something else 03:26:03 Oooh, CDO is in Europe, fwiw 03:26:05 zzo38: I do, yes. 03:26:09 Sgeo: CDO? 03:26:20 crawl.develz.org 03:26:24 telnet port 345 03:26:42 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/webmath/webmath.dvi 03:26:58 Sgeo: Crawl doesn't use any PC-specific characters, right? 03:27:10 alise, not by default, I think 03:27:13 zzo38: "DVI document has incorrect format"... how strange. 03:27:16 alise: I think Crawl can be configured both ways 03:27:17 Sgeo: Can it be configured to? 03:27:30 It has options for IBM I _think_ and Unicode for certain 03:27:52 * Sgeo uses Unicode 03:28:08 alise: I don't know why the DVI document has incorrect format 03:28:13 It works on my computer. 03:29:04 I'll try xdvi. 03:29:44 alise, trying, or not? 03:29:55 Sgeo: in a sec 03:30:05 Do I want trunk? 03:30:34 I don't know 03:30:46 On CAO, the options are 0.7.1 and 0.6.something 03:31:00 And some variants or other 03:31:11 I'll play 0.7.1, then. 03:32:17 Sgeo: what configuration option changes the characters used? 03:32:23 alise, um... 03:32:27 xD 03:32:49 char set[1/2]: To change your character set to IBM, add "char_set = IBM" to your options. Then, if you use putty, you need to go to Window->Translation->Recieved data assumed to be in which character set: "CP437". 03:33:07 what's 2/2? 03:33:19 char set[2/2]: For Unicode encoding, use "char_set = unicode", and make sure putty is set to receive data in "UTF-8" or your locale is "en_US.utf8". 03:33:33 hmm 03:33:36 is it possible to use plain ANSI? 03:33:43 That's default, I think 03:33:48 Okay. 03:33:52 Can it be changed in-game, do you know? 03:34:14 I am using PuTTY right now, as the terminal window for IRC. But PuTTY can also be used for SSH, Telnet, Rlogin. 03:34:16 Y... you'd have to change the rc file, but Crawl reads the RC on each startup, not each new game 03:34:51 Okay, final question: wtf is Sprint? 03:35:07 A variant, I think 03:35:08 (PuTTY uses xterm control codes, but when I try to run PHIRC in actual xterm, it doesn't work.) 03:35:59 Sgeo: Okay, now game-relevant questions. (You can tune in to alise64k on CDO now.) 03:36:02 Does the DVI file work now? 03:36:04 Which race is the easiest for new players? 03:36:08 zzo38: I'm installing stuff to make it work. 03:36:09 Um 03:36:28 Try any race, if you don't like it, try another one. 03:36:37 Merfolk Ice Elemental is what was recommended to me, but I'm having much more fun and finding it very easy as Troll Berserker 03:36:46 Don't do Demigod 03:36:50 zzo38: I mean the analogue of Valkyrie Dwarf. 03:37:11 Demigods sucks 03:37:14 Whoops 03:37:19 >_< 03:37:21 How can I quit? 03:37:22 Oh 03:37:23 There 03:37:44 * Sgeo wonders why Merfolk cna't be... 03:37:47 Why is Fighter blinking? 03:37:58 Oh, the gray without N/A means "more difficult combination" 03:38:02 It's not? 03:38:05 It's just selected? 03:38:09 Okay. 03:38:11 Here we go. 03:38:15 Now I need to figure out how to play it. 03:38:18 Um, what's your terminal size? 03:38:22 Ew, okay, I really need some graphics or these #s will give me a seizure. 03:38:26 Sgeo: 80x24? Maybe? 03:38:33 I suppose, you can turn off blinking in the terminal emulator if you do not want blinking 03:38:34 Yep 03:38:55 eee 03:39:05 Also, yeah, things appeared mashed-up to me 03:40:17 It's IBM now. 03:40:30 It's still being weird for me 03:41:11 zzo38: Is there not a way to show the character in normal text size, black? 03:41:11 I see SH as being in inside the map 03:41:13 That's wrong 03:41:19 Sgeo: I just quit. 03:41:23 (crashed BII) 03:41:38 zzo38: I do not understand why some of your characters are serif and some are sans serif. 03:41:39 o.O 03:41:56 Sgeo: I /am/ playing from a 68k Mac OS... 03:42:42 alise: I made sans serif for more simple, but some are a bit serif because some such as "I" won't look good with sans serif 03:43:21 It is so that you can understand the letters more easily some of them by adding some serif 03:43:35 This probably reflects a bug in the program. 03:43:35 The error was 'XF86DGANoDirectVideoMode'. 03:43:35 :( 03:47:02 zzo38: Whaddya mean? 03:49:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:51:46 alise: http://soundcloud.com/ It's Youtube for music. 03:52:28 But oh so boringly legal. 03:52:45 True. 03:53:04 If you want illegal you need a torrent. 03:57:20 Sgeo: broadcasting again 03:57:24 so i should search now, right? 03:57:30 Hold on 03:57:31 pikhq: I mean, did you look? Maybe if you look, then you can know how I meant? 03:58:04 PuTTY doesn't like it 03:58:23 zzo38: ? 03:58:39 Sgeo: it's IBM 03:58:49 pikhq: First, tell me, what specifically are you asking about? And then, maybe I can help? 03:58:57 alise, not what I meant 03:59:04 But it's having a lot of trouble with the layout 03:59:09 Is it laying out properly for you? 03:59:12 it's 80x24 03:59:13 looks fine to me 03:59:25 Not to me :( 03:59:33 zzo38: Okay, pulled up that font. 03:59:50 It doesn't break the word information across a two lines for you? 03:59:54 nope 03:59:59 but anyway 04:00:01 i should serach now, right? 04:00:11 Use x to look at your surroundings 04:00:15 I'm not sure what those are 04:00:35 Just a stone staircase. 04:00:36 *search 04:00:37 zzo38: The vertical line on the I should be longer. Also, I'd hesitate to call that a "serif". It's just part of the glyph. 04:00:39 But what's the thing that walks around for you? 04:00:43 o 04:00:59 But right now I can't see a single thing that's going on 04:01:08 Sgeo: argh 04:01:09 i mean 04:01:13 the thing that does all the tedious stuff 04:01:13 explore 04:01:15 or something 04:01:20 pikhq: That is OK, then don't call it a serif. The only vertical line on the I is the main vertical line. 04:01:21 o 04:01:28 that just asks me for a location 04:01:33 oh, there 04:01:34 zzo38: Erm, s/vertical/horizontal/ 04:01:57 Sgeo: Can I Elbereth? 04:01:59 No 04:02:04 Then ... 04:02:04 You can walk around pillars 04:02:07 Like that one over there 04:02:11 OK. But I think the horizontal line is long enough 04:02:11 What? 04:02:20 See that square of 2 walls? 04:02:23 Walk around it 04:02:37 Although this is rather despised due to tedious scummy nature 04:02:46 I don't get it. 04:02:49 Also, I still can't see what's going on 04:02:59 The horizontal line on the top and bottom is programmed to be three times as long as the distance between the vertical lines. 04:03:00 alise, to give you time to heal while K chases you 04:03:06 Be sure to use diag movement 04:03:09 Sgeo: I don't know what you are talking about; what pillar? 04:03:17 ∙▒▒∙∙ 04:03:36 I see no such thing. 04:03:45 If you think the line should be longer, how long do you think the line should be? 04:04:02 Wait, I have an idea. I'll quit this game. 04:04:04 ... 04:04:12 What? 04:04:13 Ctrl-Q I think 04:04:13 Sgeo: no, I mean 04:04:16 a Mac OS idea 04:04:21 Oh 04:04:24 to make this terminal bearable 04:04:45 I don't see how the terminal you're using has such a drastic horrid effect 04:04:46 :/ 04:04:48 zzo38: Look at a monospace "I". That's about right. 04:04:52 Sgeo: the font 04:04:58 is either tiny or unreadable 04:05:26 pikhq: OK. However, the blackboard bold letters in this font are not meant to be monospace. 04:06:05 zzo38: Yes. I'm just giving it as an example. Because I should be very, very distinct from "l" in all cases. 04:06:23 I do intend to include other stuff in the font, too, some of which might be monospace, such as "typewriter control graphics". 04:06:30 (and it looks really weird with it being so tiny and... Serif-like.) 04:06:32 pikhq: Yes, I do agree with that. 04:07:16 But look at the top of the page, the Computer Modern font uses serifs on the top and bottom of "I" like that. 04:07:38 alise, still 04:07:46 Maybe we should ask for help in ##crawl ? 04:07:52 /I/ have no issues. 04:08:23 Maybe it's my font somehow? 04:08:33 I'm using ASCII now. 04:08:34 If I change the program, what width do you suggest I program in for those lines? (Currently it is programmed to be three times the width between the two vertical lines) 04:08:34 So no worries. 04:08:47 It's all screwed up 04:08:47 Still 04:08:53 Sgeo: screenshot 04:09:06 zzo38: I suggest twice instead. 04:10:04 alise: OK, well, pikhq suggests making it longer, you suggest shorter.... perhaps I will just keep it as it is, and let other people modify it if they don't like it..... 04:10:07 http://i.imgur.com/Wa9nE.png 04:10:48 zzo38: restart your terminal, disable any conversion stuff 04:10:58 Sgeo: Maybe CRLF is misconfigured? 04:11:13 Or something else is misconfigured? 04:11:54 Me? 04:12:00 alise, did you mean me instead of zzo? 04:12:04 yes 04:12:55 No good 04:13:03 Maybe I can ask someone else 04:13:11 Oh, and MfIE is a magic user 04:13:19 How do I use it? 04:13:24 >_> 04:13:32 z 04:13:37 Read spellbooks 04:13:39 with r 04:13:45 Spellbooks contain multiple spells 04:13:49 I can freeze. 04:13:53 What use is that? 04:13:58 To kill things? 04:14:07 Yeah, I don't actually know how to aim this shit... 04:14:21 Aiming with freeze is just a direction, since it's range 1 04:14:50 How do you wait-until-something? 04:14:51 May I ask in ##crawl if your game is screwy for anyone else? 04:14:53 That you talked about. 04:14:54 Sure. 04:14:56 5 04:15:04 (not on numpad, which needs shift-5) 04:15:40 How do you explore again? >_> 04:15:48 Ah, o. 04:16:22 Sgeo: Halp. 04:16:31 I can barely see what's going on 04:16:43 They're suggesting that there's a termsize thing 04:16:48 Sgeo: http://imgur.com/mZpcL.png 04:16:49 Halp. 04:17:05 Um 04:17:25 Praying does not work like in NetHack 04:17:33 Good to know ... 04:17:47 You could try killing it with freeze, or checking inventory 04:18:16 I already tried freezing. 04:18:28 Did it hurt the kobold at all? 04:18:31 Sgeo: Quaffing the potion worthwhile? 04:18:33 Yes, it hurt it a bit. 04:18:43 Could be a good potion 04:18:58 COuld be bad. They're rarely fatal though, unless you're in the middle of combat 04:19:06 Not sure which is the best choice of action 04:19:16 Please, fix your termsize thing? 04:20:11 what have I done wrong? 04:20:20 Obviously you have already made a mistake, try again and perhaps be more careful, a bit? 04:20:32 Hmm? 04:20:47 Um, is it possible that your terminal thing is misreporting as 80x24? 04:20:54 Sgeo: It IS 80x24. 04:21:09 Please, get in ##crawl ? 04:23:25 alise? 04:25:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:25:39 -!- augur has joined. 04:26:52 Sgeo: choko? 04:26:59 ...not sure 04:27:08 I think chocolate. Um, you can see a description 04:27:23 In inventory, press the leter of the thing you want to see a description of 04:27:45 Not chocolate. 04:28:09 Fuck it. I am now getting all my news about the US from the BBC. 04:28:36 They have better reporting about what is, to them, *a foreign country* than native news reporting. 04:28:53 alise, get back to the main screen so eith can see what's going on? 04:28:55 The BBC is excellent. 04:29:09 Al Jazeera too. 04:29:29 Yeah, Al Jazeera is pretty nice. 04:29:45 But of course Americans think it's some niche "TERRORIST" agency. 04:29:49 (no, really) 04:30:17 pikhq: The BBC has undoubtedly the best-designed news web pages. 04:31:57 Yes. Undoubtedly. 04:32:27 I don't think Americans realise that Al Jazeera comes out of Qatar. (one of the least shitty Middle Eastern nations) 04:33:29 They own Harrods, too. 04:33:38 (Well, the royal family does.) 04:36:31 Sgeo: o is so cheating 04:36:35 "Play the game for me." 04:36:48 You still need to fight manually 04:36:57 You still need to mark what places to avoid, sometimes 04:37:25 The idea is that the game isn't wandering around exploring. It's fighting 04:37:31 And there are some areas that o doesn't work 04:37:41 How is it that US reporting sucks *so bad*? 04:38:13 Oh, wait. Murdoch. Right. 04:38:14 pikhq: because your country sucks so bad 04:38:41 Sgeo: should i always try to go down like nethack? 04:38:51 alise, once you clear the level, yes 04:38:56 Try to read scrolls first, I think 04:38:59 ID stuff, etc 04:39:12 I feel strangely unstable! 04:39:17 alise, scroll of teleport 04:39:21 You will teleport in a few turns 04:39:29 Sweet. 04:39:37 Blink is instant 04:39:44 I can't eat that, can I? 04:39:52 What? 04:40:02 What color is the text naming it? 04:40:25 If it's a corpse, white is ok, yellow is sometimes ok sometimes sickening, and green is poisonous 04:40:34 You need to (c)hop corpses before you can eat them 04:40:53 I am now fighting a pile of gold coins 04:40:55 green darn 04:40:57 what 04:41:17 mimics don't show up as mimics just because you're fighting them 04:41:22 what's red 04:41:38 what's red here? 04:41:42 I can't see your screen 04:42:20 red % 04:42:21 orc corpse 04:42:36 That's yellow 04:43:00 Go to your inventory 04:43:06 What color is the scroll of teleport? 04:43:14 Erm, to your discoveries, \ 04:43:43 That is not yellow, that is red 04:44:03 "a chunk of orc flesh" 04:44:05 That's yellow 04:45:25 Holy fucking 04:45:28 hmm?' 04:45:38 Tons of enemies 04:45:46 I can't see any of it 04:49:03 God: Trog [*****.] 04:49:21 Sgeo: do corpses spoil? 04:49:24 alise, yes 04:49:32 You can't accidentally eat a spoiled corpse though 04:49:37 It won't let you 04:49:50 And there are some races that don't care about rotting meat 04:49:56 And some races that can't eat meat 04:49:58 scroll of identify! 04:50:06 And some races that can eat meat when not hungry (like Trolls) 04:50:20 alise, one of the more common scrolls 04:52:58 alise, M to memorize new spells 04:53:17 m to adjust what gets experience points from practicing and what doesn't 04:53:29 Eat corpses before permafood 04:53:46 Don't eat kobold corpses (green, poisonous) 04:53:50 BRB 04:57:52 back 04:58:08 You can't eat flesh unless you're hungry 04:58:20 That's different for some races though 04:58:23 Trolls like flesh 05:00:23 I died. 05:00:30 Slain by a worm (7 damage) 05:00:34 I assumed worms would be harmles. 05:00:37 *harmless. 05:01:07 Now play a troll berserker 05:01:38 I raved about how well I was doing, and they said that they're easy early-game, but mid-late game is a different story 05:03:17 alise? 05:03:26 hi 05:05:50 Not playing? 05:07:09 nope 05:11:07 * Sgeo dies 05:12:29 05:12:34 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Sgeo/morgue-Sgeo-20100829-041037.txt 05:20:14 5:19 05:20:16 bed soon 05:20:34 Night 05:32:53 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Quit: Vegabondmx). 05:33:06 goodnight 05:33:08 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:36:44 -!- wareya_ has joined. 05:40:02 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:45:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 06:02:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:37:37 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:48:31 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 07:41:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:43:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:51:19 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:22 -!- Gregor has joined. 08:20:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:20:39 -!- augur has joined. 08:37:51 -!- Zuu has joined. 08:37:52 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 08:37:52 -!- Zuu has joined. 08:39:47 alise: noobrobin is recommended to be Mountain Dwarf Fighter or Mountain Dwarf Berserker 08:45:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:20:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:23:02 -!- tombom has joined. 09:43:31 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:28:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:28:58 When Hackiki can run "nearly-arbitrary code", what does that actually mean? 10:33:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:44:45 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 11:00:10 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 11:05:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:20:03 -!- FireyFly has joined. 11:21:19 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 11:24:48 Phantom_Hoover, a guess about possible restrictions: no arbitrary connections to remote hosts allowed, limited time to run before being killed 11:25:00 and running inside that chrooty thing that EgoBot uses 11:26:50 Phantom_Hoover, other pretty obvious limitations would include limited it to instructions allowed in ring 3 (user space on x86 CPUs) 11:28:46 and no, not ring -3, that's QUITE different 11:29:08 (i think it's running either in the northbridge or the southbridge or something) 11:29:16 (that's ring -3 apparently) 11:29:35 GreaseMonkey, no one said -3 11:29:42 GreaseMonkey, I said 3 11:29:44 +3 11:29:45 i was just making a comparison 11:29:49 oh 11:30:09 if you're wondering, -1 is hypervisor and -2 is system management mode 11:33:21 GreaseMonkey, people don't seem to refer to them as rings very often 11:33:32 hmmkay 11:33:50 hmm i wonder if someone could make a copperlist rootkit for the amiga 11:34:00 eh? copperlist? 11:34:20 the copper is the coprocessor for the amiga 11:34:40 so a microcode rootkit? 11:34:53 kinda 11:35:11 the copper only has 3 instructions: MOVE, SKIP, and WAIT 11:35:23 "Ring" is a measure of how much you're allowed to screw up, yes? 11:35:26 (you can jump by doing a MOVE into COPPC1 or COPPC2 or something like that) 11:35:42 Phantom_Hoover: kinda, it's a privilege level, ring 0 is the "highest" 11:36:03 didn't amd64 get rid of the rings and just have kernel and user-mode? 11:36:06 (actually no i don't think it's COPPC but COPJMP or something) 11:36:15 alise and I were discussing an OS in which all code ran in ring 0... 11:36:28 olsner, amd64 can still run DOS, but yes in 64-bit mode more or less 11:37:00 Vorpal: yeah, I meant "... while in long mode" :P 11:37:04 olsner: i think you might possibly be mistaking that for the limitations wrt mandatory paging & lack of GDT 11:37:13 hmm actually 11:37:37 bbl 11:41:24 hmm, how can a 32-bit kernel run 64-bit programs? 11:41:51 olsner: if it has a 64-bit component or something 11:44:42 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:47:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:57:38 -!- Flonk has joined. 12:01:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:06:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 12:29:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:43:48 BeholdMyGlory, I'm beholding it. What's so special about it? 12:53:21 Phantom_Hoover: you're probably not beholding it right 12:53:44 olsner, I am fairly confident in my beholding skills. 13:01:25 Beholding is in the eye of the beautifier. 13:05:34 Anyone here a beautifier? 13:13:13 I think we only have uglifiers present. 13:13:41 (Are you planning to go stealing some eyes?) 13:15:03 Indeed. 13:15:10 * Phantom_Hoover looks for a phone book. 13:25:43 -!- derdon has joined. 13:56:35 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:57:04 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:03:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:11:06 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:35:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:20:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:26:13 -!- Vegabondmx has joined. 15:29:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:44:45 -!- alise has joined. 16:10:40 alise, FightClub is awesome 16:11:19 (on Termcast) 16:11:24 Either you're referring to a book/film by a strangely CamelCased title, or you're referencing something of which I know not. 16:11:38 [ehird@dinky ~]$ telnet termcast.org 16:11:39 bash: telnet: command not found 16:12:07 My 68k emulation has telnet and I don't. Tee hee. 16:14:22 http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#fight 16:15:16 But then I have to go and be spammy in ##crawl and I bet the regulars don't use it often. 16:15:20 What bot is it? 16:15:28 varmin 16:15:37 I think 16:15:54 We were having a party last night 16:16:10 fight 10 20-headed hydra v 10 giant spore 16:16:14 Sgeo: BEAT THAT 16:16:22 Put it in? 16:16:29 Or shall I do it? 16:16:31 alise, so. any hypothetical activity? 16:16:32 Ok 16:16:43 Vorpal: perhaps when i'm more awake, yes 16:16:55 Sgeo: "PM varmin your !fight requests to reduce channel spam." 16:17:21 haha 16:17:24 alise, hm okay, I might be afk/busy quite a bit today, so don't expect fast replies 16:17:27 i think the hydras are winning here 16:17:42 Except I don't see this fight moving anytime soon 16:17:52 Vorpal: Hypothetically, running "file" on the hypothetical .dmg version would print "VAX COFF executable", which I find... hypothetically unlikely. 16:18:04 fizzie, mhm 16:18:09 !fight 10 the royal jelly v 100 giant spore 16:18:14 Sgeo: I don't even know the monsters 16:18:22 I'm just modifying stuff from the bot entry 16:18:50 Sgeo: can you cancel a fight? 16:18:53 alise, yes 16:18:56 how? 16:19:00 Repeat the request with cancel after it 16:19:16 there 16:19:16 Or just !fight cancel, but I think that clears the queue 16:19:23 zoom 16:19:24 this is more fun 16:19:30 haha J vs J 16:19:44 well that was easy 16:21:52 ALways put the test spawner after the v 16:21:59 So that it can end 16:22:18 Sgeo: Sigmund, eh? 16:22:22 Also, what? 16:22:52 Test spawners are (near) unkillable, and just spawn monsters 16:22:52 !fight 100 20-headed hydra vs 100 Sigmund 16:22:56 I LEARNED A NEW THING TODAY 16:23:05 Sigmund's not the best 16:23:13 There's one starting with A that is incredible 16:23:15 HAHA 16:23:42 that's better 16:23:47 !fight 1 0-headed hydra v 100 Sigmund 16:23:51 wat 16:24:04 0-headed turns into 250-headed for some reason 16:24:09 sweet 16:24:25 Sgeo: does it have equivalents of Rodney, and the horsemen? 16:24:34 100 -> 1 16:24:34 btw 16:24:35 I guess Orb Guardian's kind of close 16:24:39 so this will be amusing 16:25:03 KAZAM 16:25:19 Sgeo: vs 10 test spawner 16:25:23 i double dog dare you :| 16:25:27 Meh, no point 16:25:38 i think these guys totally have a chance 16:25:45 they're closing in 16:25:51 alise, they can only stop the test spawner spawning 16:25:55 They can't kill it 16:25:59 oh 16:26:02 how can you kill it? 16:26:08 Although someone once killed test spawner with 99 Daevas 16:26:10 I think 16:26:13 daeva? 16:26:14 Vorpal: More hypothetically, running it through dmg2img gives a file 548864000 bytes, but it's designed for florbing hfs+ filesystem images, I'm not completely certain it groks CDs. (The OS X hypothetically opens the hypothetical .dmg just fine, and shows contents too.) 16:26:36 Sgeo: wow, an orb guardian died 16:26:39 how? if it's so powerful 16:26:51 * Sgeo doesn't know 16:27:03 welp 16:27:06 Ok, time to cancel fight, call it for orb guardians 16:27:06 let's see if they can kill it 16:27:14 but they're hurting it! 16:27:20 won't that mean it'll die eventually? 16:27:25 They're not hurting it 16:27:32 Read the messages, and see the green by the name 16:29:00 Sgeo: test spawner vs test spawner 16:29:09 That won't ever end 16:29:16 Until you cancel 16:29:23 but it will be hilarious 16:29:31 add random_uniques 16:29:35 So they'll be uniques 16:29:43 ? 16:29:55 sgqExamples: "!fight 20-headed hydra v 10 kobold ; scimitar ego:flaming" 16:30:00 i don't get that bit after the ; 16:30:02 is it to add items? 16:30:11 Um... not really sure 16:30:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 16:30:25 There's a spells: thingy 16:30:36 Which isn't documented, apparently 16:30:42 i added the orb of zot 16:31:00 Add a wand of draining 16:31:20 what's that, just 16:31:22 ; wand of draining? 16:31:26 I guess 16:32:09 !fight 30 Sigmund ; wand of draining vs 30 test spawner random_uniques 16:32:13 RIP Sigmund 16:32:19 Boris XD 16:32:51 Sigmund likes dying 16:33:02 Antaeus 16:33:05 That's the strong unique 16:34:00 Holy. 16:34:39 Sgeo: These turns go slowly. 16:35:04 You can speed them up. Please don't. 16:35:08 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:35:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:35:19 Sgeo: Why not? 16:35:22 Hey you can do this locally sweet 16:35:24 It's mean on the server 16:35:25 Vorpal: Hey, that's nice. The hypothetical Myst sort of works in OS X's Classic emulation. It even managed to set a 256-color display mode. 16:35:25 -!- madbrain2 has joined. 16:35:27 crawl -arena "..." 16:35:34 To make them fight for three rounds you can do: 16:35:34 crawl -arena "t:3 kobold v goblin" 16:35:37 http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/docs/arena.txt 16:35:41 Why do logicians insist upon using the subset symbol for implication? 16:35:42 You can also give each side more than one monster. For example: 16:35:45 awesoooome 16:35:45 It's so confusing! 16:35:48 Phantom_Hoover: usually they don't 16:36:02 does Antaeus have a band, Sgeo? 16:36:05 But why do they do it at all? 16:36:09 I have no idea 16:36:13 Phantom_Hoover: hysterical raisins 16:36:39 Damn those raisins! 16:37:03 Sgeo: Will this fight ever end? 16:37:04 Roxanne is a spellcasting statue 16:37:08 alise, looks like it 16:37:14 Antaeus is winning, but still. 16:37:30 Vorpal: The dock on the right hand side is not exactly pretty, though: http://zem.fi/~fis/myst-start.png 16:37:34 !fight Margery band, Saint Roka band vs 5 Antaeus 16:37:36 What *are* you talking about? 16:37:37 Worth a try. 16:37:42 Phantom_Hoover: telnet termcast.org, fight club 16:37:50 /msg varmin !fight foo vs bar to queue one up 16:37:58 along with the more powerful options explained in http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/docs/arena.txt 16:38:07 spell: isn't explained there 16:38:16 One common thing seems to be to give statues spells 16:38:22 Sgeo: There's multiples arenas!! 16:38:25 http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/source/dat/arena.des 16:38:31 alise, yeah, mostly useless 16:38:39 Antaeus wins! 16:38:42 arena_corridor looks fun 16:38:48 Uh, Antaeus won that one, right? 16:39:04 It said 'e died a while ago... 16:39:11 Phantom_Hoover: ? 16:39:24 Antaeus in the last fight. 16:39:44 Phantom_Hoover, there were several Antaeus's 16:39:54 yeah 16:39:55 tons of them 16:40:05 i gave the other guys a test spawner 16:40:08 Oh, right. 16:40:08 since they're at such a disadvantage 16:40:12 They're things. 16:40:44 Sgeo: Why are so many of them green-backgrounded? 16:41:00 alise, because I think in terms of the code, they're allies (roughly similar to NetHack pets) 16:41:13 You see how it says Your? 16:41:32 ah 16:42:04 Sgeo: I read that as "I think in terms of the code; because of this, ..." 16:42:17 lol 16:42:21 antaeus v antaeus 16:42:37 antaeus are fucked 16:43:08 "Don't you feel lonely without a god?" 16:43:14 lol 16:43:22 * Phantom_Hoover -> things 16:43:36 Bloody non-compose-keyed Mac keyboard... 16:43:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:43:46 Orb Guardians don't have a chance 16:43:57 Why do they guard the Orb, then? 16:44:12 According to LearnDB, they're relatively harmless 16:44:19 I think because you try to avoid fighting them 16:44:49 what's the most powerful fighting item? 16:44:59 I have no idea 16:45:07 You think I'm a Crawl expert? :D 16:45:22 totally 16:45:26 that was quick 16:45:54 DUM DUM DUM DUM 16:45:56 DUM DUM DUM DUM 16:46:15 lol 16:46:18 *gasp* 16:46:29 Lesson learned: to fight Antaeus, tame a load of 0-headed hydrae. 16:47:17 wtf man. 16:47:37 lol 16:47:38 suicide 16:47:47 well that was easy 16:47:56 this may take a while 16:49:27 What do you expect me to do here? 16:49:55 Vorpal: The dock on the right hand side is not exactly pretty, though: http://zem.fi/~fis/myst-start.png <-- heh 16:50:13 fizzie, iirc myst *will* run under more than 256 colours 16:51:13 Yes, there's a "Continue" button in the box where it asks whether you want to set it to 256 colours. 16:51:15 Sgeo: IT'S THE FINAL COUNTDOOWN 16:51:22 It seems to work better in BasiliskII, though. 16:51:44 Sgeo: !fight 40 random vs 40 random random_uniques cycle_random miscasts 16:51:57 These guys are miscasting every fuckin' turn. 16:52:52 the royal jelly (rotting) 16:53:26 Sgeo: What's the weakest monster in the game, do you know? 16:54:46 Sgeo: I can't tell who's winning here. 16:59:16 Sgeo: Who won???? 17:00:07 MMF--MFFFF!!! 17:00:57 lol invisible 17:01:12 alise, sorry, was AFK 17:01:22 Sgeo: I did !fight 40 random vs 40 random random_uniques cycle_random miscasts 17:01:24 It was epic. 17:01:24 cacodemon? 17:01:26 I have no idea who won. 17:01:36 Yeah, cacodemon. I saw it in the previous fight. 17:01:42 So I decided, why not pit Antaeus against 99 of them. 17:01:42 -!- tombom_ has joined. 17:01:59 I'm gonna brush my teeth quickly 17:02:14 Spriggans ought to be weak 17:02:16 i thinl 17:02:21 Some of the player races 17:03:04 (spriggan is a player race) 17:03:39 Antaeus is losing 17:03:50 But he has kiled an awful lot of them. 17:03:55 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:04:06 Gah, doesn't he have a way to resore his health? 17:04:08 *restore 17:04:27 Also, when the fuck do you fight Antaeus in the game? He's nearly invincible! 17:04:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:04:59 http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#antaeus 17:05:02 He killed 30. RIP Antaeus. 17:05:12 http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#cocytus 17:05:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:05:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:06:01 Sgeo: what's the wand antaeus is using to shoot all-powerful flames of icy death? 17:06:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:06:04 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:06:06 -!- HackEgo has joined. 17:06:07 -!- EgoBot has joined. 17:06:11 alise, I have no idea 17:06:25 Looka the fancy new hosts for HackEgo and EgoBot! :) 17:06:39 So sweet. 17:06:42 HostNAMES that is. 17:07:05 Sgeo: Spriggan seems tough enough to me. 17:07:18 hmm, I may be mistaken 17:07:29 *Spriggans seem 17:07:37 "Spriggans move two thirds faster than most and have seven magic resistance per level (not three), but can't wear most armour and have the lowest natural HP of any race. " 17:07:48 It's written in C++? Ew. 17:07:51 (note: It probably means player races) 17:07:52 Hmm? 17:07:58 DCSS. 17:08:07 giant newt 17:08:07 The weakest monster in the game. If you're sufficiently challenged by its presence to consult the bot, you're doing it wrong. 17:08:10 Beware! It swims! 17:08:10 Food with legs 17:08:35 Can it kill you like the NH newts? 17:09:09 om nom nom nom nom 17:09:18 giant newts engulf saint roka nom nom 17:09:30 we cannot lose om nom nom nom 17:10:12 Obviously, I'm faking all the FightClub stuff just to get alise into Crawl 17:10:21 faking how :P 17:10:32 Set up termcast, manual drawing... thing 17:10:38 Added fake learndb entries 17:10:40 crawl's keep-at-center movement still gives me headaches, sorry 17:12:12 alise, according to ##crawl, that can be changed 17:12:17 Although it's more annoying 17:12:22 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/docs/options_guide.txt 17:12:55 view_lock stuff apparently 17:13:10 view_lock=false 17:13:17 Does it allow you to have maps larger than the terminal size? 17:13:21 Phantom_Hoover: all of them are 17:13:22 more or less 17:13:37 GIANT SPIKED CLUB FUCK YEAH 17:13:44 That's actually quite nice... 17:13:56 THEY'RE WINNING 17:13:59 FUCK YEAH GIANT SPIKED CLUBS 17:14:14 giant spiked demon blade 17:14:14 57 base damage, 21 delay 17:14:17 totally is a real item 17:14:17 They're saying it's fairly nice with a huge terminal 17:15:57 !fight 99 Daeva v test spawner 17:16:30 is daeva really powerful or sth 17:16:48 Supposedly, 99 Daeva killed test spawner 17:17:25 !fight 99 Daeva, 40 Antaeus v test spawner 17:17:33 will they all fit? 17:17:34 i wonder 17:18:36 Hey, a Daeva died 17:18:52 indeed 17:19:26 Hmm 17:19:52 Hum de dum. 17:19:58 This could take a while. 17:19:59 it will take *ages* 17:20:55 Do you want to wait, or cancel this fight? 17:21:20 Cancel, methinks. Unless it goes purple soon. 17:21:46 Why is some of the floor yellow? 17:21:53 Might be a halo thing 17:22:14 Cancelled 17:22:22 Now for the ultimate showdown. 17:22:25 Okay, wow, Antaeus wins. 17:22:38 Wouldn't 99 Antaeus v test spawner have a better chance? 17:23:19 I _think_ that Daeva has an attack that actually scratches test spawner, and ANtaeus doesn't 17:23:27 test spawner has all resistences 17:24:57 Sgeo: Easy. 17:25:29 Antaeus is wandering XD 17:25:51 Maybe Antaus v something that resists cold 17:25:58 *Antaeus 17:26:05 -!- chickenzilla has left (?). 17:26:06 Hey, ANtaeus was scratched 17:26:09 See ya guys. 17:26:18 What are the )s? 17:26:22 Armour? 17:26:26 Weapons, I think 17:26:54 Dear god. I have created a monster. 17:27:21 It's going to keep going until the monsters summoned damage a test spawner enough to destroy it, and so on. 17:27:37 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:27:37 Did a test spawner just get destroyed? Wow. 17:27:55 ..no? 17:28:01 The orange one? 17:28:02 Maybe not. 17:28:25 You can't fire me, I quit! 17:28:26 ? 17:28:31 ? 17:28:37 One of the messages 17:28:38 -!- Vegabondmx has joined. 17:28:49 I think the monsters are disappearing due to lack of space. 17:28:52 And that's a message for it. 17:29:58 !fight Roxanne v Roxanne arena:small 17:30:31 Should I rerequest? 17:30:44 lol 17:30:46 look at that 17:31:02 this will never do a thing XDD 17:31:26 Sgeo: This is, uh... 17:31:32 Lemme cancel 17:31:50 Well, the speech is entertaining 17:32:11 ZOOOOM 17:32:49 Sgeo: delay:0 is sweet 17:33:00 It's mean to the server 17:33:09 Doesn't matter for short matches. 17:35:01 Sgeo: delay:0 becomes delay:15, it seems 17:36:32 In other emulationary news, (for no particular reason) tried OpenBSD 4.7 on "qemu-system-sparc -M SS5", and it... didn't quite work: http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-1.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-2.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-3.png; however. the OpenBSD 3.5 that I think is in the real SS5 in the basement did a lot better: http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-4.png 17:37:36 I can't really watch the fights when they're this fast 17:37:56 It's funny, though. 17:38:16 How about multi-rounding a more even thing? 17:38:18 * Sgeo has an idea 17:38:34 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:38:52 fizzie: how come -1 gets more blurry as you go rightewards? 17:39:25 Sgeo: NOW the server hates me. 17:39:49 It's like the end of Wargames. 17:39:53 A strange game... 17:40:53 alise: They're taken from different runs. For some reason qemu doesn't open the window exactly at 1024x768, but instead a bit less than, and my manual resizes weren't very accurate. (It scales the 1024x768 framebuffer to the window size.) 17:41:07 *rightwards 17:41:09 fizzie: No, I mean, in just -1 17:41:14 But ah, I see. 17:41:18 Oh, I think the scaling is a bit messy. 17:41:26 How about slow-mo? 17:41:31 Sgeo: no :P 17:41:32 brb 17:41:52 !fight Antaeus v giant newt delay:1000 17:45:34 Hey, sigmund managed to kill a newt! 17:49:30 BRB 18:00:20 alise, wanna watch my ghost kill someone? 18:04:00 -!- Vegabondmx_ has joined. 18:04:35 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:04:35 -!- Vegabondmx_ has changed nick to Vegabondmx. 18:04:45 alise, or watch someone deliberately destroy the Orb of Zot? 18:07:53 Bleh, just watched one 18:08:03 If you want, PM Sequell with !lm * type=orb.destroy 1 -tv 18:08:05 And watch FooTV 18:13:34 destroyed the Orb of (r:Phantom_Hoover) 18:13:37 "destroyed the Orb of (r:Phantom_Hoover)" -- what's the Orb of Phantom_Hoover do? 18:13:49 Hoovers things, obviously. 18:14:32 There are 6 orb destructions that Sequell knows about 18:14:50 list them with s=name instead of 1, and play a different one by replacing the number 18:15:00 (oh, and no -tv with the listing) 18:15:54 Who requested that? 18:16:02 * Phantom_Hoover whistles innocently 18:17:08 !lm * s=type 18:17:13 To list types of milestones 18:17:19 At least, those that have been achieved 18:17:28 Really? 18:17:30 Oops... 18:18:38 Well, I at least saw Sgeo die this time. 18:19:42 What's this? 18:20:11 Crashes! 18:20:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 18:22:57 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 18:25:08 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:25:09 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 18:26:14 * Sgeo has to go soon 18:34:52 Huh 18:35:00 3 rounds, 10 orc v troll, troll wins 18:35:09 Give the orcs an orc priest, and orcs win 18:35:31 Even if the priest is killed fairly quickly 18:36:55 hmm, Ice Fiend 18:37:44 Sgeo, did you use appropriate experimental practicE? 18:37:48 s/E/e/ 18:38:01 Meh 18:40:25 Sgeo, EVIL! 18:40:37 You're a terrible person! 18:40:44 hmm? 18:40:58 Did you repeat the experiments a good number of times? 18:41:07 No 18:41:16 DISGUSTING 18:46:48 6 - 4 t:10 10 orc v troll delay:15 {Sgeo} 18:47:16 10 - 0 t:10 10 orc, orc priest v troll delay:15 {Sgeo} 18:48:14 6 - 4 t:10 9 orc, orc priest v troll delay:15 {Sgeo} 18:57:55 new idea for NetHack hallucinatory monster: patent troll 18:59:46 coppro: :D 19:00:27 Antaeus was injured! 19:00:28 Give the orcs an orc priest, and orcs win 19:00:28 Even if the priest is killed fairly quickly 19:00:32 takes the damage for them 19:01:02 Actually, my experiments, such as they are, seem to show that it's number of orcs 19:01:19 11 orcs total do far better than 10 orcs total 19:01:24 Wow, orc priests own Antaeus 19:01:27 If you want, PM Sequell with !lm * type=orb.destroy 1 -tv ;; what else can you do with this 19:02:24 Sgeo: BEHOLD 19:02:27 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 19:02:41 Sorry, comp acting up 19:02:57 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit). 19:03:26 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/bots lastgame and lastgame examples 19:03:34 Or http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#lastgame 19:03:58 What is this? 19:04:03 Ah 19:04:09 1. qwqw, XL17 SpEn, T:20797 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 19:04:15 how long do i have to wait for him to destroy it? :P 19:04:19 alise, you missed it 19:04:24 Sorry 19:04:24 darn 19:04:27 was it at the start or something 19:04:39 Sgeo: no i mean 19:04:41 i ran your !lm command 19:04:45 what is the yellow #? 19:04:47 in fightclub right now 19:04:56 also, antaeus is holding up damn well here :P 19:04:56 I have no idea 19:04:59 Maybe a fire 19:05:05 alise, run it again, watch FooTV 19:05:07 isn't that red #? i'd guess 19:05:09 Sgeo: i did 19:05:13 i saw no orb being destroyed 19:05:47 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 19:06:00 Just now 19:06:07 That was ... boring. 19:07:39 how does one start crawl-tiles in a window? 19:07:42 I want HI-RES arena 19:08:41 I don't know, I've only ever played Crawl online 19:09:09 Sgeo: 99 Daevas v test spawner delay:0 running locally 19:09:12 alise, oh, Ice Fiends do well against Antaeus 19:09:14 not ... not much is happening 19:09:35 Yay, it lost some health. 19:09:35 Around 10 will sometimes kill em 19:09:36 Orange now. 19:09:54 Sgeo: it's much more fun locally, since delay:0 is actually 0 19:10:17 Still orange... 19:10:22 This thing is fucking resilient! Wow! 19:10:29 The test spawner? 19:10:37 Purple. 19:10:38 Sgeo: Yes. 19:10:44 Red! 19:10:55 It'll die in the next twenty minutes! 19:10:58 lol 19:11:14 Still going... 19:11:20 Woo, it died and I didn't even see it. 19:11:23 How much HP does it have, exactly? 19:11:34 BRB 19:11:47 96 Antaeus v 99 test spawners... 19:12:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:14:49 -!- augur has joined. 19:16:35 Sgeo: 19:16:37 1 - 0 99 the Lernaean hydra miscasts delay:15 v 99 Antaeus {alise} 19:16:37 1 - 0 40 Antaeus v 99 the Lernaean hydra miscasts delay:15 {alise} 19:16:40 Explain THAT. 19:18:08 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:21:13 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:23:44 lol 19:24:06 alise, there's probably a way to watch people killing Antaeus? 19:24:21 i guess 19:24:58 !lm * uniq=Antaeus 19:25:15 Put a -tv after that and you're watching the last person to kill ANtaeus 19:25:20 Sgeo: Now I'm pitting 99 Antaeuses against a test spawner; de;ay:0. 19:25:24 Either that, or the last of Antaeus's victims, not sure 19:25:26 *delay:0. 19:25:44 Uh, actually, I think they're doing no damage at all. 19:25:59 No, last person to kill Antaeus 19:26:01 Wanna watch? 19:26:07 On FooTV 19:26:14 Doing so now. 19:27:36 -!- yorick has joined. 19:27:56 -!- yorick has quit (Changing host). 19:27:56 -!- yorick has joined. 19:28:19 Bye 19:28:25 Bye. 19:30:52 On my phone now 19:31:45 -!- SgeoN2 has joined. 19:32:01 Sgeo: you can have more than 99 of an enemy 19:32:06 99 test spawners, 99 test spawners works 19:32:27 What happens if you put 100.? 19:32:33 treats it as 1 19:33:16 * SgeoN2 wonders how Sigmund fares against orcs 19:33:42 For how weak Sigmund seems in the arena, he's a common player killed 19:33:44 Killer 19:33:57 SgeoN2: You see a puff of smoke. x19963 19:34:00 gets >30000 sometimes 19:34:04 crawl -arena 'Daeva v 99 test spawner, 99 test spawner, 26 test spawner delay:0' 19:34:10 the longest game! 19:34:58 One Daeva? 19:35:02 The Daeva's winning? 19:35:42 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:35:47 The Daeva is, uh, sitting around hitting things wildly. 19:35:50 I haven't the patience. 19:36:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:37:31 My god, Andrew Schlafly doesn't believe in complex numbers. 19:38:02 Phantom_Hoover: XD 19:38:06 SgeoN2: crawl -arena '99 giant newt, 99 giant newt, 26 giant newt v test spawner delay:0' 19:38:12 GO TEAM l! 19:38:28 They're sure hissing menacingly a lot. 19:38:32 alise, it gets better. He's a former electrical engineer. 19:38:45 Phantom_Hoover: So how did he... 19:38:53 Dunno. 19:39:22 Mother bribing the university, perhaps? 19:40:09 SgeoN2: The giant newts are really determined. 19:40:14 Does hissing menacingly actually do any damage? 19:40:17 Just curious. 19:40:34 Ill be able to talk soon 19:41:17 hmmm, I need to design a nice and simple instruction set 19:41:51 madbrain2: forth :P 19:42:18 haha :D 19:42:30 no seriously forth cpus are sweet 19:43:46 but are they efficient for irl implementations? :D 19:44:02 especially on systems without cache? 19:44:02 sure 19:44:05 forth cpus are commercial products 19:44:10 Ok, I can participate in stuff now 19:44:12 from various companies 19:44:16 hobbyists have made a few 19:44:20 and of course chuck moore can't stop making them 19:44:31 madbrain2: i don't think you'd need cache 19:44:32 I should learn Forth 19:45:06 ha, from chuck moore's latest blog post: 19:45:10 "Also, I've become a teetotaler. After 40 years of favoring bourbon, I've concluded the upside doesn't compensate the downside. Among many considerations: life is simpler; I'll save money; social occassions are more difficult. So now it's ginger ale of an evening." 19:45:21 but how will we get blog posts that seem almost slurred??? 19:45:25 shame on you! 19:46:19 SgeoN2: crawl -arena '99 giant newt, 99 giant newt, 25 giant newt, Daeva v test spawner delay:0' 19:46:24 run until daeva is next to test spawner 19:46:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:46:30 (may take many tries) 19:46:37 there 19:46:43 Alise, ping me whenbyou request fightclub fights 19:46:53 SgeoN2: whenbyou 19:47:05 i'm doing it locally now, delay:0 is sweet 19:47:25 Autocorrent isn't.good at detecting whenbi type something other than space 19:47:52 "The GA4 is the smallest chip we have created: A chip with Four F18B computers in an 8-pin package (2x2mm) or 12 pins (3x3mm). The chip measures <1 sq mm in a 180 nm process." --Green Arrays 19:47:55 http://greenarraychips.com/home/images/ga4.jpg 19:47:56 You could termcast it... 19:48:03 that little thing in the top-right is a chip 19:48:11 SgeoN2: just run it locally yourself :P 19:48:33 Not willing to download Crawl 19:48:33 uh, Daeva /can/ do the smiting stuff diagonally, right? 19:48:37 SgeoN2: o_O why not? 19:48:42 you play the damn thing 19:48:56 Laziness, ease of just playing online most of the time 19:50:29 Roguelikes: Because suicide is too easy. 19:50:30 Also, I'm on a phone right now. Far easier to watch on termcast than attempting to get Crawl working on here 19:52:51 hmm 19:52:57 SgeoN2: I think I'm going to write a Roguelike. 19:53:19 stack based cpu designs seem like they use lots of instructions to do stuff no& 19:53:20 ? 19:53:30 I may have added too much soap 19:53:31 madbrain2: eh; Forth has no real "instructions" 19:53:36 SgeoN2: what 19:53:45 madbrain2: it won't be slow though 19:53:53 madbrain2: since while it may call a few words it's very very close to the metal 19:54:06 like, a while loop in forth executes 10x simpler than a while loop in a regular language of the same expressiveness 19:54:58 I'm at the Laundromat, the washer at my house is broken 19:55:48 http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CKqn0JrmocOuKRDYBRhPMgijsGgA5g0TgA 19:56:53 Do they provide services for characters in roguelikes? 19:56:59 Hopefully! 19:57:52 hey, that's a nice-looking ! you got there 19:58:18 * alise is playing Rogue 19:58:36 "You don't hit the bat" 19:58:41 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:59:37 well, what I mean is, take something like a texture mapping algo 19:59:47 -!- nooga has joined. 20:00:09 you have to store multiple counter values into registers, increment them each step, etc 20:00:27 plus do bit manipualtion for texture coords 20:00:44 I am now battling an emu. 20:00:47 madbrain2: registers? 20:00:50 there are no registers in a stack machine 20:01:18 where do they store loop counters then:D 20:01:25 >.< 20:01:28 do you know Forth? 20:01:40 it's kind of hard to imagine how a forth machine works without knowing forth 20:01:44 I don't, yet 20:02:06 well, it reads variables to and from the stack no? 20:02:14 madbrain2: well uh 20:02:14 this is why India will overtake North American & Europe: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/10/08/29/1710203/What-IT-Stuff-Should-We-Teach-Ninth-Graders 20:02:21 that's if you're programming with a variable-based paradigm 20:02:25 which would be retarded on a stack machine 20:02:29 madbrain2: i suggest you learn forth, the language 20:02:34 like, how would you translate n += dn; 20:02:36 only then you can you understand how a stack machine can be efficient 20:02:37 you don't 20:02:39 because you don't do that 20:02:42 i mean you can theoretically 20:02:44 but it'd be stupid 20:02:51 (and you'd probably just use a memory location for that case) 20:03:13 ok how do you handle a loop with counters being incremented on each step? 20:03:22 ff 20:03:36 it's an almost impossible question to answer without you having any knowledge of this stuff since forth is such a different mindset 20:03:41 seriously, just learn forth :P 20:04:41 __________ 20:04:41 / \ 20:04:41 / REST \ 20:04:41 / IN \ 20:04:41 / PEACE \ 20:04:42 / \ 20:04:44 | ehird | 20:04:46 | 63 Au | 20:04:48 | killed by a | 20:04:50 | snake | 20:04:52 | 2010 | 20:04:54 *| * * * | * 20:04:56 ________)/\\_//(\/(/\)/\//\/|_)_______ 20:04:58 fuck yeah rogue 20:05:50 that's why I like mario 20:06:14 why, you die a lot? 20:06:23 no, you don't :D 20:06:31 or more like just enough 20:06:39 well mario is also a lot easier and more braindead to play than roguelikes :) 20:06:44 rogue itself is pretty boring though gotta admit 20:06:46 no fun stuff 20:07:22 Alise, set some viewport options and play Crawl? 20:07:32 >…> 20:07:33 SgeoN2: but rogue is historical! 20:07:49 alise, this poem is from me to you: http://hackedirl.com/2010/08/16/culture-jamming-win-nerd-love/ 20:07:55 ATTACK OF THE KILLER EMUS 20:08:16 cheater00: oh come on 20:08:18 that's from like 20:08:19 well 20:08:23 as soon as all your base came out 20:08:32 Gryph was kidnapped by an emu 20:08:39 i thought you would appreciate the romanticism 20:08:47 it has nothing to do with novelty 20:09:01 apparently, as n decreases, insanity of cheatern increases 20:09:09 i just thought, you know, this image perfectly described my feeling towards u 20:09:23 i think cheater00 is either drunk or ... drunk 20:09:46 i never drink 20:09:48 http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Emu 20:09:50 like 20:09:51 ever 20:09:53 in fact 20:10:09 i was at a birthday last friday and i bought the people a litre of vodka at the bar 20:10:16 with a case of red bull 20:10:20 and i didn't drink any of it 20:10:30 You don't hit the ice monster (or something) 20:10:31 __________ 20:10:32 / \ 20:10:32 / REST \ 20:10:32 / IN \ 20:10:32 / PEACE \ 20:10:33 / \ 20:10:35 | ehird | 20:10:37 | 147 Au | 20:10:39 | killed by | 20:10:41 | hypothermia | 20:10:43 | 2010 | 20:10:45 *| * * * | * 20:10:47 ________)/\\_//(\/(/\)/\//\/|_)_______ 20:10:49 ONE HIT 20:10:51 ONE HIT and I died 20:10:53 NOTE TO SELF: When playing Rogue, NEVER attack I. 20:10:54 yep 20:10:55 Are there any Rogue servers? 20:11:07 SgeoN2: alise has one 20:11:10 well 20:11:18 actually nethack is the 'server' one innit 20:11:21 they're asshole games 20:11:24 rogue doesn't have any networkability 20:11:26 does it 20:11:31 cheater00: nor does nethack 20:11:33 it's built on top 20:11:34 madbrain2: not really, just newbie-asshole games 20:11:41 SURE IT DOES 20:11:42 they're very rewarding if you can get past the first few levels 20:11:43 hence the NET 20:11:53 you can connect to the server and leave your bones behind 20:11:59 HENCE interacting with other players 20:12:01 cheater00: that's because it's a version of Hack maintained by people over the internet 20:12:03 haha, alise loses, lolol 20:12:05 also, leaving bones is a machine-local thing 20:12:13 The Net refers to the deb's working together on the Internet, I think 20:12:17 *devs 20:12:19 stfu, girls know nothing about computer games 20:12:21 nethack servers are basically termcasts with keyboard input 20:12:26 yes 20:12:39 No, not debian packages 20:13:00 well, come on 20:13:04 SgeoN2: you know what? i'm gonna make a rogue server 20:13:05 AND NOBODY CAN STOP ME 20:13:07 MWAHAHAHAHA 20:13:15 they give you potions and shit 20:13:17 i wanna see if i can get the dos version's graphics though 20:13:24 all of which are going to kill you at random 20:13:24 you want a nethack server 20:13:28 for bones 20:13:29 madbrain2: which you don't quaff unless either desperate or identified 20:13:35 that's called caution 20:13:44 cheater00: there's a program to download bones without using a server 20:13:44 that's the worst cocktease 20:13:55 alise: i know 20:13:55 * SgeoN2 hits madbrain2 with a large trout 20:14:07 "To get started you really only need to know two commands. The command 20:14:08 ? will give you a list of the available commands and the command / 20:14:08 will identify the things you see on the screen." 20:14:18 plus they have crazy identification techniques involving stacking 20:14:18 Crawl is friendlier 20:14:26 BUGS 20:14:26 Probably infinite (although countably infinite). However, that Ice 20:14:26 Monsters sometimes transfix you permanently is not a bug. It's a fea- 20:14:26 ture. 20:14:40 okay, crazy plan: rogue | sed for ibm graphics 20:14:52 no colour though, i'm not that crazy 20:14:58 Unicode graphics!!! 20:15:38 alise: um, rogue doesn't have bones levels 20:15:52 cheater00: of course not 20:16:07 alise: so your answer was wacko 20:16:14 cheater00: not really 20:16:17 you can have online servers without bones 20:16:52 i know 20:16:56 but i said 20:16:57 well, a game that you need a walkthrough to even just play... 20:17:00 you want a nethack server 20:17:00 for bones 20:17:03 which means 20:17:09 "you want a nethack server, for bones" 20:17:13 madbrain2: you don't with crawl et al 20:17:18 madbrain2: only nethack is that perverse 20:17:21 even then you don't need a walkthrough 20:17:24 You don't need a walkthrough to play Crawl 20:17:25 just lots of spoilers 20:19:57 or lots of deaths. lol! 20:20:46 Supposedly, an unspoiled person won NetHacl recently 20:23:04 SgeoN2: Fun idea: The smiley face character turns sad if you're low on HP. 20:25:35 SgeoN2: Well, I have a smiley face. 20:26:00 Sounds interesting 20:26:45 lol 20:26:46 nice 20:26:52 alise: what sort of music do u listen 2 20:26:52 ? 20:27:13 i refuse to talk to anyone who says "u" or "2" 20:27:36 i knew you would be like that 20:27:44 you're just using this as an excuse, though 20:30:30 To win the game (as opposed to merely playing to beat other people's 20:30:30 high scores) you must locate the Amulet of Yendor which is somewhere 20:30:30 below the 20th level of the dungeon and get it out. Nobody has 20:30:30 achieved this yet and if somebody does, they will probably go down in 20:30:30 history as a hero among heroes. 20:35:08 alise: is this nethack? 20:35:18 olsner: no, Rogue 20:35:24 or at least the presumably-old manpage for Rogue 20:35:27 's Linux port 20:35:32 1986 20:35:37 from 4BSD 20:35:44 so the original manpage it seems 20:35:53 oh, ok... maybe someone's solved it in the decades after that then 20:36:10 of course 20:36:17 even programs have solved it 20:36:26 it's easier than nethack 20:36:30 by far 20:36:36 (although still difficult) 20:36:46 olsner: i don't suppose you know how to disable line spacing on a terminal? 20:36:49 it's fucking up my box drawing :D 20:37:23 Programs have solves roguelikes? O.o 20:37:36 SgeoN2: you do realise TAEB is a pretty good player? 20:37:44 alise: I think the spacing is included in the fonts (at least in traditional ones), and that there are special characters for doing line drawing that use the full width/height 20:37:45 and that nethack is probably the hardest roguelike? 20:37:49 olsner: not traditional 20:37:52 modern terminal, modern font etc. 20:38:22 Supposedly, crawl is harder than spoiled NetHack 20:38:28 But maybe not for Bots I guess 20:39:31 * SgeoN2 was expecting to use ConnectBot ... 20:39:53 ConnectBot? 20:40:15 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Rogue_Screen_Shot_CAR.PNG i want my rogue server to look like this dammit 20:40:15 alise, well... nothing hypothetical will happen today... Night 20:40:21 Telnet and SSH client for Android 20:40:24 Vorpal: night? at this time? 20:40:25 normal fonts are subtler of course, but hmm, I think the same applies there really... the relationship between character grid size and character size is way more complicated, but I'm pretty sure the font could have the same kind of line drawing characters that fill up the space 20:40:33 olsner: no, i tried those 20:40:36 i believe the terminal is linespacing 20:40:38 ever so slightly 20:40:39 alise, I have to wake up at 06:00... so yes 20:40:54 Is that a dwarf? 20:41:07 SgeoN2: no, that's your @ 20:42:18 SgeoN2: ideas for my roguelike are buzzing around annoyingly since they'll be hard to implement >_> 20:44:54 The Sgeo Memorial Resignation proposal 20:44:59 wut 20:45:32 Possible name for a proposal to fix something that almost kept me trapped as Chroniclor 20:47:04 Xom is BORED 20:51:11 oh, the good old dos font? :D 20:51:43 the 8x14, 8x16, 9x14 or 9x16 version? :D 20:51:50 (or 8x8 or 9x8¸) 20:52:00 SgeoN2: you should read the rules before you complain that they're broken 20:59:00 SgeoN2: I'm actually creating a Rogue server... 20:59:17 madbrain2: I like the old DOS font for box drawing etc. 20:59:18 Awesome 20:59:23 The text is a bit crappy. 20:59:32 Maybe it's a roguelike I could actually win 20:59:36 SgeoN2: Check out my TOTALLY SLEEK MANDATORY FIGLET INTRODUCTION TEXT: 20:59:40 ____ 20:59:40 __________/ __ \____ ____ ___ _____ __________ 20:59:40 /____/____/ /_/ / __ \/ __ `/ / / / _ \/____/____/ 20:59:40 /_/ |_|\____/\__, /\__,_/\___/ 20:59:41 /____/ 20:59:51 And I dunno about that, Angband is generally considered easier, and I don't think Angband is considered easy. 21:01:19 * SgeoN2 ponders watching alises death on FooTV 21:01:54 Typing it out is going to be annoying 21:02:31 Slain by a worm, right? 21:02:38 About to send the command 21:04:25 Alise, you screwed up FooTV 21:05:14 how 21:05:31 Your weird terminal size issues 21:05:32 oh 21:05:35 my crazy game 21:05:35 haha 21:05:56 Should I put it on again so you can see for yourself? 21:06:07 sure 21:06:17 Tell me when 21:06:18 although i did check in the actual game 21:06:19 now 21:06:20 now is fine 21:06:29 Sent 21:06:37 trippy 21:07:49 heh 21:07:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:08:07 Try two simple roguelike games I have created 21:08:09 Hi zzo 21:08:59 I have other ideas for roguelike games too, which I have not implemented. 21:09:39 The games I created are: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP 21:09:57 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:10:03 Zzo, I'm planning on learning, or at least reading about, Forth 21:10:11 SgeoN2: so wikia won wrt the skin huh 21:10:38 SgeoN2: btw, the best way to learn forth is to read jonesforth. you don't need to understand assembly, just read all the (huge huge comments) 21:10:40 SgeoN2: Yes, it is a good thing to learn, afterward you might like or not like some things about it, you don't ever have to use it if you don't want to. 21:10:42 very very educational 21:10:52 http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.s.txt 21:11:01 explains everything in depth with nice diagrams 21:11:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:11:42 hi ais523 21:11:45 People regard strange languages as something that should go away? 21:12:01 I, and presumably everyone in the channel, regard them as fun! 21:12:39 hi alise 21:12:56 SgeoN2: you don't need to read his links about learning forth the language, btw 21:13:04 heh, it's not every day that an assembly program is the recommended reference :P 21:13:08 learning forth the language should come after learning how forth works; the latter is a prerequisite to understanding its philosophy 21:13:25 olsner: well, it's more like a book with assembly delimited by */ ... /* :-) 21:13:31 I have written several Forth systems, and programmed in some others too 21:13:34 Ultimate low level language? 21:13:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:13:44 SgeoN2: and ultimate high level language! 21:13:53 I'm not certain I consider Forth a programming language 21:13:57 it's more like a very lightweight OS 21:14:07 I like things where control structures are implemented in the language a LOT 21:14:30 SgeoN2: then you'll marry Forth. 21:14:40 ais523: ever played Rogue? 21:14:40 Any nice graphical Forth environments? 21:14:48 SgeoN2: uh, there may be. you don't really want one 21:14:50 alise: no, although I've played original Hack 21:14:59 SgeoN2: Maybe, colorForth. 21:15:08 But you can use Forth fine without any graphical environments. 21:15:12 SgeoN2: that question misses the point entirely 21:15:13 SgeoN2: in fact the only decent forth environment is NOT even a file -- writing code in a file is /not/ what Forth is about 21:15:16 it's about interactive development 21:15:26 indeed, in the best forth systems, there are no files, you just write code into blocks 21:15:27 Sgeo, little known fact: you can define if in Lisp with only lambdas and macros. 21:15:39 forth + another OS seems wrong 21:15:40 SgeoN2: so basically if you're learning forth: never open an editor 21:15:44 I'm kind of trying to compare it to what I know -- Smalltalk 21:15:52 forth's the sort of lang I'd run only in a VM, or on baremetal hardware 21:15:57 SgeoN2: don't, the two are just completely incomparable 21:15:57 SgeoN2: let's put it this way: in the best forth systems, you never leave the REPL 21:16:01 in the entirety of your project 21:16:15 alise: well, you have to write the REPL first 21:16:18 ais523: Forth actually works both as its own OS, on another OS, and also embedded into another program. (I have used it in all three ways) 21:16:22 ais523: erm, forth has a repl 21:16:25 that's the only interface 21:16:35 you know, code -> response -> "ok", repeat 21:16:38 They sound similar, in as much as they are self enclosed 21:16:41 alise: I was under the impression that most Forth programmers started out by writing a minimal interp 21:16:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:16:49 ais523: you mean coding their own Forth? 21:16:50 no 21:16:53 ais523: Some Forth programmers do. 21:16:53 and you don't interpret Forth 21:17:00 you compile it :) 21:17:02 to threaded code 21:17:02 I consider it as interpreting itself 21:17:15 admittedly, sometime Forth interpreting itself causes it to compile itself 21:17:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:17:20 SgeoN2: now may be a good time to note that a bit of what ais523 is saying is very idiosyncratic and not how most forth programmers view things. 21:17:28 I have written more than one interpreter. 21:17:36 meh, idiosyncratic's a good description for me 21:17:44 ais523: oh, i'm not saying it as a bad thing 21:17:46 I'm just going to read this thing you linked me 21:17:48 just that it's worth taking note 21:17:53 SgeoN2: that is the best policy. 21:18:07 ais523: anyway, I'm setting up a Rogue server 21:18:19 I'm also the sort of person who believes that portable Forth is inherently missing the point 21:18:23 ais523: which is incredibly easy, as it takes the savefile on the command line and just puts scores in a rogue.scr file in the current directory. 21:18:32 and that you should learn asm before starting Forth 21:18:49 does anyone know how to write a socket server that takes input unbufferedly? 21:18:58 like is there some telnet thing to tell the client "hey send me keypresses as they come in" 21:20:00 Maybe I'll just wait until I get home to read it 21:20:15 Well, NAO obviously does it. 21:20:41 SgeoN2: probably a good idea 21:20:45 you need a big screen to read it :P 21:20:46 Phantom_Hoover: well, duh 21:21:21 You can do terminal control stuff with printing, can't you? 21:21:39 i don't think so 21:21:44 you need ioctl or whatever 21:22:03 Use Haskell! 21:22:18 Yay, so far the dryer hasn't caught fire 21:22:27 Some Forth systems allow "backtick notation". One of them is MegaZeux Forth. Here is the standard include file for MegaZeux Forth: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux.4th 21:23:12 zzo38: Does any Forth apart from MegaZeux Forth support this? Apart from ones you wrote? 21:23:16 (Most of it is just definition of constants. But a few control structures are also defined near the bottom.) 21:23:29 -!- Killerkid has joined. 21:23:29 alise: Yes. There are some that support it other than ones I write. 21:23:44 Hmm, it should be possible to make a Forth ... thingy for LSL, right? 21:23:58 I think HELFORTH was one such system with backtick notation, but I cannot find it any more. 21:24:03 zzo38, is there anything you haven't reinvented? 21:24:13 SgeoN2: Please stop linking everything to other systems and just enjoy Forth standalone. 21:24:38 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, a lot of things, including mostly things that I have not even heard of. 21:24:51 alise: I suppose that's one way in which you can compare Forth and Smalltalk; they both dislike interacting with other languages 21:24:53 What about for systems where it would be annoying to attempt to write anything other than machine code on the system itself? Can Forth be used for that sanely? 21:25:12 ais523: Forth is undoubtedly the more beautiful language, though. 21:25:13 SgeoN2: yes, it's one of its main advantages 21:25:14 SgeoN2: Yes. 21:25:19 Forth is common in embedded development. 21:25:21 SgeoN2: It can, if done in a way that is good for that purpose. Which is possible. 21:25:22 It is very light-weight. 21:25:23 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:25:24 Very, very light-weight. 21:25:45 it does require the ability to write code at runtime, though 21:25:57 MegaZeux Forth interacts with two other programming languages, C and Robotic. 21:26:02 Ah...thatmay be tricky 21:26:08 zzo38, Robotic? 21:26:13 Another invention of yours? 21:26:17 It has to do with the way MegaZeux is designed, though. 21:26:27 Robotic is not another invention of mine. Gregory Janson invented Robotic. 21:26:28 ais523: nmapping a box that's right next to you; rate the craziness from 1 to 10 21:26:38 Robotic was the original programming language for MegaZeux. 21:26:39 it depends on the reason 21:26:47 it does require the ability to write code at runtime, though 21:26:48 not necessarily 21:26:51 you can do indirect threaded code 21:26:55 Hmm... Forth in Smalltalk! Smalltalk in Forth! The former is probably more sensible 21:26:59 that only requires being able to jump to an address stored in a memory location 21:27:03 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if he can do anything worthwhile in Coq 21:27:12 SgeoN2: as I said: you will never enjoy Forth unless you let it be separate from other things you know. 21:27:30 the first is easier; the second probably makes more sense though 21:27:38 Bubut.... 21:27:48 ais523: ? 21:27:50 ais523: oh 21:27:54 you were responding to SgeoN2 21:28:29 SgeoN2: Forth is its own OS. 21:28:31 Initiating Service scan at 21:27 21:28:31 Scanning 4 services on SE572 (192.168.1.1) 21:28:33 Hum de dum... 21:28:49 ais523: am I the only one who just got an urge to get some low-powered hardware and forth it the hell up? 21:28:50 Pikhq, can be 21:28:55 ::= 21:29:04 Doesn't have to be, afaict from everyone here 21:29:11 alise: I got a slight urge, but not enough to act on it 21:29:23 -!- iGO has joined. 21:29:31 ais523: it's just not the same when @ and ! can't really peek and poke any memory location 21:29:47 alise, qemu? 21:30:05 Phantom_Hoover: >_< 21:30:07 my knowledge about Forth is that I understand vaguely how a typical forth-in-asm works, but can't remember any of the syntax or individual commands 21:30:15 PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION 21:30:16 80/tcp open tcpwrapped 21:30:16 443/tcp open https? 21:30:16 9000/tcp open tcpwrapped 21:30:16 10000/tcp open snet-sensor-mgmt? 21:30:16 well, effective syntax 21:30:20 it's all just commands really 21:30:21 totally not helpful, nmap 21:30:21 ais523: there is no syntax. 21:30:23 alise: Yes.... but in some systems where Forth is embedded into another program, sometimes for security purposes you create memory mapped instead 21:30:30 :P 21:30:38 alise: there's syntax in the same sense that ()! is a comment in Underload 21:30:51 words 21:30:58 O.o 21:31:08 In TAVSYS, which is another Forth system I wrote, there is 64K memory cells, which can be accessed by @ and ! unrestricted. 21:31:14 Is there a semistandarized way to use if? 21:31:46 Can Forth easily sandbox Forth? 21:32:05 SgeoN2: Define "Forth" and "sandbox". >:D 21:32:14 hmm, /me reads the proggit article about Google releasing the fastest sort algo ever 21:32:18 it's cheating by being O(n) 21:32:23 and running on a GPU 21:32:32 SgeoN2: A semistandardised way to use if?? 21:32:33 However, TAVSYS also has other storage areas, being a string table, and an object table. When an object is active, the memory locations 0x0000 to 0x01FF are memory mapped to the object. Strings are never memory mapped. 21:32:39 What? 21:32:42 alise: radix sort 21:32:45 it's not a comparison sort 21:32:46 ais523: Being O(n) is not cheating. It just means it's damned well not a comparison sort. 21:32:50 pikhq: yep 21:32:55 What do you mean, a "semistandardised way to use if"? 21:33:00 ais523: I said nothing... 21:33:06 Oh, radix sort. Love that one. 21:33:10 XD 21:33:15 ais523: No, we /won't/ do something THAT evil to the horse. 21:33:16 alise: you said "What?"; I thought you were responding to me 21:33:26 If is usually implemented in Forth, apparently. Can I usually take statements that have if from one Forth and put it into another? 21:33:53 SgeoN2: A semistandardised way to use if?? 21:33:53 What? 21:33:54 Control structures can easily be implemented directly in Forth, including IF and so on. 21:33:54 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 21:34:04 SgeoN2: if is implemented in Forth in the standard library ... 21:34:04 Not by you .............................. 21:34:10 -_- 21:34:10 Zzo, I understand that 21:34:13 there's a standard library? 21:34:22 There's a standard anything? 21:34:38 : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ; : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ; 21:34:38 Forth is somewhat portable? 21:34:39 well 21:34:40 There's the ANS Forth words, you could call those standard-ish. 21:34:42 yes 21:34:42 ais523: ANS Forth, for instance 21:34:49 That is one way, that works in some Forth systems. 21:34:56 there's predefined words 21:34:56 close enough 21:35:11 zzo38: what's with the backquotes? 21:35:19 SgeoN2: No. 21:35:35 Different Forth systems might have different standard libraries, alsthough not always, sometimes it is a few different ways. Somewhat like Plain TeX and Plain METAFONT are simple libraries for their programs. 21:35:42 I think SgeoN2 is playing a game where he asks a question, I say "no, with slight traces of yes", and he asks the opposite question :) 21:35:59 ais523: some crazy MegaZeux thing that nothing else implements 21:36:02 alise: "get some low-powered hardware and forth it the hell up" -- there's an ongoing thread in comp.lang.forth about 6502 forths, inspired by someone making his old Commodore PET run. It has a delightful percentage of 6502 asm in the message contents, even though it's a bit rambling. 21:36:25 ais523: This is used in Forth systems which use backtick notation. Not all Forth systems do it, but TAVSYS and MegaZeux both do. So does HELFORTH, although I don't know if HELFORTH can use these definitions of IF ELSE THEN exactly as is. 21:36:25 anyone want to help me break my router?! 21:36:27 6502 asm was the fourth programming I learnt 21:36:29 I have an old Pentium II... 21:36:43 alise: you nmapped your own router? 21:37:07 ais523: yep 21:37:16 ais523: to try and find a telnet/ssh server 21:37:17 that's not completely insane 21:37:28 uh oh, my router may have disconnected in retaliation 21:37:42 PING!!! 21:37:44 you're still online, though 21:37:52 phew 21:38:00 In backtick notation, it works somewhat like that: The word IF` is the instructions for compiling the word IF 21:38:20 admittedly, I've known a computer I've been using to have IRC but nothing else connected 21:39:04 hmm, /how/ do you prove that you can't comparison-sort faster than n log n? 21:39:07 So : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; means whenever the word IF should be compiled, it should compile 0=GOTO and then execute ORIG instead of compiling the word IF directly. 21:39:48 ais523: There's at least some sort of information-theoretical justification for it, but I've forgotten the details. 21:39:49 Is understandable to you? 21:39:56 ah, I see; it's a different syntax for the "immediate" thing that's used by some other forths 21:40:03 with one level of indirection 21:40:45 ais523: Yes. (And it is not a syntax I have invented, despite some people's belief.) 21:41:44 -!- alise_ has joined. 21:44:11 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:47:33 is there an option to less to restrict it? no running shell commands, etc 21:47:46 ah 21:47:49 LESSSECURE 21:49:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:49:53 you'd think LESSSECURE would reduce security :) 21:51:45 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 21:51:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:54:32 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:55:11 self.request.send(clear) 21:55:11 rogue = Popen(['rogue', '-s'], stdin=PIPE, stdout=PIPE) 21:55:11 less = Popen(['less'], stdin=rogue.stdin, stdout=self.request) 21:55:11 less.wait() 21:55:14 * alise_ wonders why this doesn't work 21:55:48 that capital P on Popen gives me worries 21:55:48 ais523: it's about the number of permutations of a list, and the number of bits you (may, in the worst case) need to discover about the list you're trying to sort 21:56:01 olsner: yep, I guessed it was something like that 21:56:01 oh 21:56:04 reading from stdin 21:56:07 ais523: why worries? it's a class 21:56:12 I think it's something trivial like log(n!) = nlog(n) in the end 21:56:18 alise_: NetHack flashbacks 21:56:25 ais523: huh? 21:56:27 it uses macros starting with capital letters to indicate wrappers around something else 21:56:29 do they use Popen with a capital P or something? 21:56:30 ah 21:56:42 e.g. Sprintf = a NetHack version of sprintf that acts the same way 21:56:57 why is it wrapped, then? 21:56:58 for errors? 21:57:15 or Hallucinating = sugar for the struct field that says if the character is hallucinating (so it's assignable and readable, and acts like a global variable even though it isn't) 21:57:19 and I don't know 21:57:27 perhaps for portability 21:58:01 gah 21:58:10 ais523: don't you hate it when you think of the obvious, dumb solution to your current bug 21:58:12 put it in place 21:58:15 and it still fails in the exact same way? 21:58:38 that often indicates a second bug 21:58:42 exactly 21:58:44 but it's so irritating 21:58:46 but it can be a little frustrating 21:58:58 I can sometimes catch so many bugs trying to track down a different bug 21:59:05 just because I'm rereading the code looking for scams bugs 21:59:29 Are you SURE I should read Jonesforth before reading say, the wiki page? 21:59:54 Jonesforth is in GAS. Qed. 22:00:02 ?? 22:00:08 is Jonesforth the Forth interp in literate asm + Forth? 22:00:14 if so, read it first, it's excellent 22:00:16 Sgeo: yes, I'm reading it now and almost know forth now 22:00:28 GAS is basically pain implemented as an assembler. 22:00:49 ais523, it _looks_ like literate asm to me 22:01:14 It's not really, it just has tonnes of comments. 22:01:39 Ok, so : ; is Forth syntax for defining stuff? 22:01:42 Sgeo: no 22:01:43 there is NO SYNTAX 22:01:46 : DOUBLE DUP + ; 22:01:47 don't try and skip ahead 22:01:49 ...? 22:01:51 I'm NOT 22:01:51 just accept jonesforth for what it is and read on 22:01:56 : and ; are Forth commands 22:02:00 I'm looking at the section called THE DICTIONARY 22:02:08 Sgeo: well, then, yes 22:02:13 using them in a pair acts rather like a syntax for defining, though 22:02:16 but read the actual definitions 22:02:17 for now, you can just read : X ... ; as define the word X to be ... 22:02:25 until the actual definition is explained later 22:02:37 dup duplicates the top of the stack, but you probably could have guessed that already 22:02:55 this is exactly why you should learn the interpreter first and the language afterwards :P 22:03:33 The dictionary is a double linked list? 22:03:39 Low level x86 thought: could you malloc a block, then set rsp to it? 22:03:39 Sgeo: in this implementation. 22:03:47 olsner: unfortunately jonesforth /does/ say ": ... ;" at the start 22:03:58 Why didn't he say "double linked list"? 22:04:03 Phantom_Hoover: "low level x86" and "malloc" don't normally go together 22:04:19 Sgeo: no, it's a single-linked list afaict 22:04:20 DOS has a syscall that acts exactly like malloc, but that's kind-of unusual 22:04:26 ah right 22:04:28 yes, single 22:04:33 Sgeo: it's exactly what jonesforth says it is :P 22:04:33 Oh, it's backwards 22:04:50 * Sgeo wonders why 22:05:08 Maybe I'll stop commentatering 22:05:12 Sgeo: because it's a stack 22:05:45 Is that an implementation thing, for fundamental to Forth? 22:05:57 * Sgeo guesses the latter 22:05:59 Implementation. But try not to think about Forth-the-language right now. 22:06:06 Well, I suppose it's half-way. 22:06:06 the implicit shadowing seems fundamental, the rest is probably implementation 22:06:11 All that really matters is Jonesforth, at the moment. 22:06:17 You can disregard all other Forth implementations until later. 22:07:16 There is no syntax in Forth. : is the command to read the next word and enter compile mode with that word meaning that definition, and ; is the word to end the current definition and compile the command to stop it, and go back into interpret mode. 22:07:58 Some people try to write syntax highlighting software to highlight Forth syntax, but it doesn't work so well, unless you write the syntax highlighting software itself in Forth. 22:08:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:08:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:08:28 ais523, OK, low-level Linux. 22:08:44 malloc still assumes a libc 22:09:01 ais523: i think he means using asm on linux with libc 22:09:08 *with a libc 22:09:24 I'd consider low-level Linux to use sbrk and mmap if it wants memory 22:09:40 i think you're missing the point of his question. maybe. 22:09:43 not sure 22:10:13 mmap seems like a better thing for allocating a stack 22:10:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 22:10:35 does anyone know how to force less into believing it's running on a terminal, even if i'm piping it around? 22:10:40 alise_, he is. 22:11:08 mmap seems like a better thing for allocating a stack <-- mmap is used for the stack on linux 22:11:19 well it is mmap + some magic 22:11:48 MAP_GROWSDOWN 22:11:54 Phantom_Hoover: so you're asking about setting rsp? then yes, AFAIK you're free to set %rsp to whatever you want 22:12:01 and MAP_STACK 22:12:18 alise_: Yes I have tried to do that once, in a computer at FreeGeek, trying to make a program in a pipe believe its output is a terminal, I looked at the man pages, and yet I didn't quite figure it out. 22:12:22 olsner, will you go completely mad if you do so? 22:12:48 night really 22:13:14 Phantom_Hoover: I think it's a perfectly sane thing to do occasionally 22:13:38 I might not have comp time until later 22:18:04 Phantom_Hoover: %rsp is a general purpose register that call and ret happen to use. 22:18:16 And push and pop... 22:18:26 Vorpal: Ha, see. 22:18:33 pikhq: Here, you tell me how to make less believe it's talking to a terminal which just so happens to be a socket. 22:19:10 aha 22:19:12 I can use script, I bet 22:21:18 ais523: what's the termcast script again? 22:21:21 the script -f thing 22:21:31 you didn't save it? 22:21:44 yes, but then my harddrive misplaced itself into format land 22:22:02 script -f >( cat ./ratry_login - | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) "$@" 22:22:07 thanks 22:22:11 and ./ratry_login is hello username password 22:22:32 yeah 22:23:58 ais523: feels weird to use script to just run a command though... 22:24:01 do you know how nethack servers do it? 22:24:19 almost exactly like that, but with ttyrec rather than script 22:24:24 Is this codeword stuff Jonesforth or Forth? 22:24:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:24:31 (and ttyrec is just a version of script with more precise timestamps) 22:24:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:24:49 what script's doing there is to capture the screen output 22:24:50 Also, can this special interpreter function be written in FORTH itself? 22:24:55 there's nothing really weird about that, given the circumstances 22:25:46 ais523: so script -f -c 'some command' >socket should work fine, right? 22:25:51 where >socket is done in the programming language, not a shell, ofc 22:26:18 alise_: not really, script writes to a file 22:26:22 I love it when it says "AS you will have seen" 22:26:30 the >() makes an anonymous pipe for it to write to, I think 22:26:39 ais523: yes, but if you give script's stdout as a socket in a programming language... 22:26:42 which then gets passed with /dev/fd/1 syntax 22:26:42 script = Popen(['script', '-f', '-c', 'rogue -s | less -c'], 22:26:42 stdin=PIPE, stdout=self.request) 22:26:50 after all, sockets are files 22:26:55 DOCOL 22:26:57 then it'd be script -f socket -c 'some command' 22:27:05 ais523: err, you can't do that 22:27:06 Is there any reason to use DOCOL in ordinary FORTH code? 22:27:08 sockets aren't files on the filesystem 22:27:12 script = Popen(['script', '-f', '-c', 'rogue -s | less -c'], 22:27:12 stdin=PIPE, stdout=self.request) 22:27:18 alise_: yes they are 22:27:24 in Linux, /dev/fd/number 22:27:24 Sgeo: what does it do again? 22:27:25 Sgeo: That is for you to figure out if you have reason or not. 22:27:29 where number is the socket's ID 22:27:30 ais523: yes, but... 22:27:38 or you can use a named socket if you prefer 22:27:49 alise_, it's the codeword/FORTH interpreter/thingy 22:27:49 ais523: you DO realise you can specify process' stdins and stdouts as any file in C or whatever, right? 22:27:58 including sockets without using a filename? 22:28:00 That does return stack stuff 22:28:09 alise_: you DO realise that script /does not write its recording to stdout/, do you? 22:28:10 Sgeo: DOCOL is : 22:28:16 that's what I'm trying to get at 22:28:18 o.O 22:28:23 ais523: then why does "script -f >foo" work? 22:28:30 that's not what the script says 22:28:34 it says script -f >(foo) 22:28:38 i know that 22:28:39 but i tested it 22:28:40 myself 22:28:40 where >() is a bashism 22:28:48 script -f >foo /works/ 22:28:49 simple as 22:29:16 alise_: hmm, I think script must be sending the /original/ output to stdout 22:29:22 indeed my code snippet works too 22:29:24 ais523: unlikely 22:29:25 thus, you get the recording, but can't see what happens onscreen yourself 22:29:31 uh, yeah 22:29:32 that's sort of what i want 22:29:34 alise_: script -f >foo creates a file called "typescript", doesn't it/ 22:29:34 :P 22:29:38 since i'm sending to a socket 22:29:41 because a filename isn't specified 22:29:48 ais523: yes, true 22:29:50 you need /dev/null in there 22:30:07 but this whole thing makes script fool the command into thinking it's running on a tty, so it's all good 22:30:15 4+ and 4- are really worth implementing in Assembly? 22:30:23 alise_: because it is running on a tty 22:30:27 that's what script /does/, creates a tty 22:30:31 ais523: yes, precisely 22:30:38 Sgeo: not really 22:30:42 Sgeo: it's just an example 22:31:20 4 is the size of a pointer on an x86 22:31:24 so that might be one reason 22:32:20 Okay, /now/ all I have to do is figure out how to tell a Telnet client "yo, gimme raw keyboard codes, innit, instead of line-buffering. Innit." 22:32:52 alise_: are you talking about termcast atm? 22:33:11 ais523: nope, I'm still writing NetRogue (the deliberately-misleadingly-named internet Rogue server) 22:33:25 I need to send the Telnet client into raw keyboard input mode 22:33:31 so that rogue and other programs work properly 22:33:34 rather than going "wtf" 22:35:37 DO SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD DO ECHO WILL SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD WILL ECHO 22:36:04 this has nothing in theory to do with raw keyboard input 22:36:10 but in practice, telnet servers tend to get the hint 22:37:11 ais523: no, /I'm/ the telnet server 22:37:13 talking to the client 22:37:20 trying to coerce the client into giving me raw keyboard input like nethack.alt.org does 22:37:24 err, telnet's symmetrical 22:38:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:38:10 ais523: eh? 22:38:14 really? 22:38:17 alise_: yes 22:38:35 i'm not sure what character sequence DO SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD DO ECHO WILL SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD WILL ECHO corresponds to 22:38:39 also, is that really what NAO sends? 22:38:53 I think so, at least it's what Jettyplay sends NAO 22:39:04 (I told you it was symmetrical, even with respect to sending and receiving) 22:39:12 (and with respect to asking for and turning on options) 22:39:22 let me check specifically what NAO sends, I have it recorded somewhere 22:40:20 yep, DO SGA DO ECHO WILL SGA WILL ECHO 22:40:22 the order doesn't matter 22:40:40 ais523: do you know what characters they correspond to? also, presumably all prefixed with \037, right? 22:41:21 no, prefixed with 253 22:41:32 bah, same thing 22:41:36 umm, 255 22:41:59 255 253 3 255 251 3 255 253 1 255 251 1 22:42:20 but you need to implement enough of the telnet protocol to avoid infinite loops 22:42:27 i implement none of it 22:42:36 I suppose there is no way to make all this work with netcat? 22:42:41 * ais523 glares at netcat's "telnet mode", which only half-implements the protocol 22:42:44 Bye 22:42:47 * Sgeo growls 22:42:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: DAS MACHINEN IST NODT FOR GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABBEN IST EZY FOR BREKKEN DAS SPRINGWERKS, BLOWENFUSEN MIT LOUDISCH POPEN UND SPITZENSPARKEN IST NIX GEWERKEN BY BUMKOPFS!). 22:43:31 netcat is very shoddy with its telnet impl; connecting it to a real telnet server/client the other side notices the loop and breaks it, but connecting two to each other would create a loop 22:43:59 ais523: erm, we are talking Hobbit netcat here, right? 22:44:08 I think so 22:44:09 if you mean GNU netcat or whatever, it's irrelevant what it does because i don't care about it 22:44:16 I know it was /very/ hackish 22:44:18 i don't think hobbit netcat does telnet 22:44:24 hmm, maybe it is GNU netcat 22:44:26 ais523: i mean nethack in raw tcp mode anyway 22:44:28 anyway, it doesn't claim to do telnet 22:44:45 it just claims to strip out telnet metadata and send sane-looking responses 22:44:59 "Two movies that Legend Films are noted for is the colorization of the exploitation film Reefer Madness, for which certain color schemes were used to create a psychedelic effect in its viewers, and Plan 9 from Outer Space." ;; but WHY? 22:45:16 ais523: ok, so if I send that magical sequence, what do i need to handle as a response to avoid an infinite loop? 22:45:50 you probably want to negotiate DO BINARY too in order that the other end can actually send the keypad codes 22:45:55 I imagine they don't fit into the normal text range 22:46:12 Gah, this is so complicated. 22:46:17 Why the heck can't I just say "raw keyboard mode"? 22:46:41 alise_: because telnet's default settings are designed for communicating with typewriters 22:47:05 ais523: So do I have to "negotiate"? Can't I just spit this stuff at the client and let it set it? 22:47:33 you do, because the client will be requesting modes that you probably don't implement 22:47:37 and you have to let it know you don't implement them 22:47:45 "Start address+length is the normal way to represent strings in FORTH (not ending in an 22:47:45 ASCII NUL character as in C), and so FORTH strings can contain any character including NULs 22:47:45 and can be any length." 22:47:52 What about length of the length? 22:48:30 alise_: http://pastebin.ca/1928584 22:49:11 your impl will probably be simpler because you don't care what terminal type the other system is using (or do you?) 22:49:14 ais523: I think I will just cry now. 22:49:17 whereas NAO does, so jettyplay has to tell it 22:49:34 Yeah, I don't care about that; I'm just assuming basic VT100 stuff, since that's all Rogue uses. 22:49:56 ais523: But seriously, what? What the hell? How to WHAT can this be so complex? 22:50:05 I weep for anyone who writes Telnet. 22:50:10 I don't see why you think that's complex! 22:50:21 it's actually pretty simple 22:50:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:50:55 line 232 onwards is the bit that handles options you don't support 22:50:56 ais523: it's complex for the simple network server that i thought this would be 22:51:05 is there any issue with just copying your initial send sequence? 22:51:17 that's less than 100 lines, and over 20 are comments 22:51:29 alise_: you'll end up passing up the other side's reply to Rogue 22:51:41 and I don't know how it'll interpret it 22:51:52 also, if the other side asks a question, it may hang waiting for your answer 22:52:14 ais523: actually, i display a menu first 22:52:18 but i didn't mean that 22:52:24 I meant is your initial sequence ok for this 22:52:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:52:29 or does it have additional stuff? 22:52:39 also, it's more the state machine that irritated me, since the code is ridiculously simple right now :-) 22:52:41 leave out the WILL NEW-ENVIRON and WILL TERMINAL-TYPE 22:52:59 a telnet server probably shouldn't offer to send environment variables and terminal type to the client 22:53:08 haha 22:53:17 also, leave out the NAWS too, /it/ doesn't care what size /your/ window is 22:53:20 Opinion added to database: Telnet = fucked up. 22:53:39 Maybe I can read it on my phone 22:53:41 ais523: whyyy did you have to say this after i stripped it into a string 22:53:48 and change the WILL TOGGLE-FLOW-CONTROL to DO TOGGLE-FLOW-CONTROL, as you're on the other end of the connection 22:54:08 what about do echo / will echo? 22:54:09 actually, just leave that one out; NAO cares, but telnet clients don't seem to 22:54:13 the order doesn't matter 22:54:19 reversing that you get will echo / do echo 22:54:23 which is the same in a different order 22:54:34 ("echo" here means "I'm handling your character echoing") 22:54:45 (and telnet clients won't just send raw keypresses without that, typically) 22:55:09 so get rid of toggle-flow-control right? 22:55:10 okay 22:55:15 so I hvae 22:55:17 *have 22:55:28 WILL BINARY, DO BINARY, DO SGA, WILL SGA, DO ECHO, WILL ECHO 22:55:38 looks about right, and it's nice and symmetrical 22:56:02 then if you don't mind using the "netcat hack", just send DONT or WONT to any other request by the other side 22:56:20 \255\251\0\255\253\0\255\253\3\255\251\3\255\253\1\255\251\1 22:56:22 it leads to an infinite loop of DONTs and WONTs if the other side is badly-behaved, as you're not meant to send the same signal twice in a row 22:56:43 ais523: so that would break netcat? 22:56:47 (as in, you don't send DONT X DONT X without a DO X in the middle) 22:56:50 alise_: only in telnet-hack mode 22:56:58 it's a hack that only breaks if both ends of the connection use it 22:57:13 ais523: well, whatever, i'll just assume the client is well-behaved 22:57:17 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:57:31 ais523: hmm 22:57:34 def setup(self): 22:57:34 self.request.send( 22:57:34 '\255\251\0\255\253\0\255\253\3\255\251\3\255\253\1\255\251\1') 22:57:37 no hanging or anything 22:57:39 so, say, GNU telnet sends you "WILL NAWS" (I'll tell you my window size if you want) and you reply "DONT NAWS" (I don't care) 22:57:39 it just simply has no effect 22:57:50 hmm, interesting 22:58:44 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:58:52 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:58:53 -!- wareya has joined. 22:59:04 Aren't \nnn's usually in octal? 22:59:13 At least Python's are. 22:59:15 are you sure you've set the socket to unbuffered at your end? 22:59:20 fizzie: oh, gah 22:59:34 ais523: No. I don't think Python even lets you do that after the fact. 22:59:39 I suppose I could write my own socket machinery. 22:59:41 But what fizzie said. 22:59:44 Time to convert them all to hex. 22:59:46 Do the \xnn instead, it's more readable. 22:59:49 Rights. 23:00:08 alise_: "after the fact"? that's the only way to do it IIRC 23:00:37 you also have to allow for the fact that 255 is an escape character (thus you have to undouble 255s when receiving and double them when sending) 23:00:44 (except as part of a negotiation sequence like that) 23:01:05 ais523: I'll never be sending \255s. 23:01:22 hmm, OK 23:01:32 ITYM \377s. :p 23:01:35 why do you not just use a telnet library? 23:02:12 ais523: there's a telnetlib but it appears to only do clients in python 23:02:18 and I'm not touching Twisted 23:02:24 (dunno if it even does telnet) 23:02:51 just translate my impl from Jettyplay? 23:02:57 ais523: unless you think symmetricity would make http://docs.python.org/library/telnetlib.html fine? 23:03:06 * ais523 checks the logs for the URL 23:03:25 apart from the .open() bit wanting host/port 23:03:29 I could probably hack in a .socket = foo 23:03:41 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 23:03:58 It has non-blocking stuff, at least. 23:04:01 I'm up to the part with : and ; 23:04:07 This is so amazing 23:05:00 alise_: hmm, is source for that available? 23:05:25 that library seems very general, it doesn't seem to handle anything but the default WONT/DONT for everything 23:05:32 ais523: /usr/lib/python2.6/telnetlib.py 23:06:40 http://bsx.ru/~gong/lj/atari-forth.jpg :D 23:06:58 reading it now 23:07:50 well, the sending works now 23:07:56 olsner: old :) but still great 23:07:59 beh, that's not even a complete implementation 23:08:19 olsner: I wonder what the artist was thinking when he decided "And now I'll draw the pants, complete with erect bulge..." 23:08:22 in fact, it uses the netcat hack 23:08:32 ais523: nutin' wrong with that 23:08:39 my opinion on Python's libraries has just gone way down 23:08:49 (although admittedly, the Perl telnet libraries have similar issues) 23:09:26 ais523: you'll be horrified to learn that I'm just going to ignore all other commands 23:09:34 it sends requests and stuff, but ignoring them breaks nothing 23:09:35 MWAHAHAHA 23:09:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:10:11 so how are you handling incoming IACs? just passing them straight on to Rogue? 23:10:35 ais523: I won't get any once Rogue starts, will I? 23:10:39 I show a menu first. 23:10:49 in theory you can get them at any time 23:10:57 you're likely to get one if the client resizes their terminal, for instance 23:11:00 (although not guaranteed) 23:11:11 (especially as you said you didn't care about the terminal size) 23:11:36 ais523: just tried it; nope 23:11:53 hmm, actually you didn't say you didn't care about the terminal size 23:11:55 the nice thing here is that telnet(1) is much less irritating for me than your conception of an average client :D 23:11:56 just... didn't answer 23:12:02 yep 23:12:08 telnet appears to be coded for broken servers 23:12:09 which is great 23:13:58 well, it seems vaguely unlikely that you'll come across a client that decides it suddenly can't handle binary halfway through the session 23:14:06 (the protocol actually allows for that!) 23:14:20 heh 23:14:28 ais523: er, how do I tell if the client's disconnected? 23:14:33 the socket doesn't close; I just get empty strings back 23:14:41 the socket /should/ close 23:14:45 that sounds like a bug in the socket library 23:15:01 at least, you should get EOFs back 23:15:08 which in Python causes an exception 23:15:56 the telnet protocol is really clever, actually 23:16:15 brb 23:16:30 if both sides try to negotiate the same options and the messages cross, each side interprets the other's question as an answer 23:18:53 hmm, just noticed an error in Jettyplay's impl; if the other side asks it to send the window size, it sends the size, /then/ accepts the request 23:18:55 which makes no sense 23:19:24 but that only happens if the other side turned window-size negotiation off then on again, which seems a little implausible 23:24:13 Speaking of which! I didn't really follow the run-in-pty discussion earlier, but Python has the "pty" package -- http://docs.python.org/library/pty.html -- that can be very useful for such fakery. It's a bit on the non-portable side, though, and might not really apply in these circumstances for all I know. 23:31:50 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:36:50 -!- Zuu has joined. 23:36:51 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 23:36:51 -!- Zuu has joined. 23:38:23 entering the Zuu Zone 23:47:36 back 23:48:21 if both sides try to negotiate the same options and the messages cross, each side interprets the other's question as an answer 23:48:25 why not just make the two the same? 23:48:39 they are 23:48:47 ah 23:49:09 ais523: ttyrec is basically just script with timing information, right? 23:49:11 DO BINARY is either a question ("please switch into binary mode, if you're willing") or an answer ("you said you supported binary mode, please turn it on") 23:49:13 alise_: yep 23:50:02 ais523: and watching a game can simply be "ttytail foo", right? 23:50:12 no, tail -F 23:50:17 ttytail is something different 23:50:22 (tail -F piped to ttyplay, that is) 23:50:22 what's ttytail, then? 23:50:34 hmm, ttytail does do something similar 23:50:41 except it monitors directories for new ttyrecs turning up 23:51:08 ah 23:52:10 what does ttytime do? 23:52:26 hmm, tty* have no manpages 23:52:52 ttytime exists? 23:53:03 apparently. 23:53:04 ah 23:53:07 tells you how many seconds long it is 23:53:21 since there are no manpages, do you know what the -u and -a switches do for ttyrec? 23:53:43 -p Peek another person's ttyrecord ;; and isn't this probably better to use than tail -F? any rason not to? 23:53:53 no reason not to, I don't think 23:54:02 also, surely it should be -f, not -F? 23:54:14 from the manpage: -a Append the output to file or ttyrecord, rather than overwriting it. 23:54:18 -f and -F do much the same thing 23:54:24 -f follows the inode, -F follows the filename 23:54:31 ah, I want -a 23:54:31 normally -F is more useful for what I use tail for 23:54:37 since the ttyrec should be for the entire game 23:54:52 -u With this option, ttyrec automatically calls uudecode(1) and saves its output when uuencoded data appear on the session. It allow you to transfer files from remote host. You can call ttyrec with this option, login to the remote host and invoke uuencode(1) on it for the file you want to transfer. 23:54:56 I love that option 23:55:07 wat XD 23:55:22 much better than the workarounds I had to do with automatically generated printf commands last time I had that problem 23:55:40 (part of the issue was that the other system had nothing but a stripped-down busybox) 23:55:49 (and I was trying to send a binary to it over a serial cable) 23:55:51 yay, rogue at least operates 23:55:59 now to wrap it in save file logic and ttyrec 23:56:04 and then write the viewing interface 23:56:23 ais523: I don't suppose telnet has a standardised facility for saving to the client's disk? :-D 23:56:30 ("Yes, it's called FTP.") 23:56:34 that doesn't even make sense... 23:56:54 what if the client is a typewriter? 23:57:09 ais523: then I shoot them 23:58:12 incidentally, it's fun to compare Windows telnet, GNU telnet, and the RFCs in explaining the mess with character-at-a-time sending 23:58:19 GNU telnet just glosses over the technical details entirely 23:58:47 Windows telnet talks about how the whole situation is a kludge and what its interpretation is 23:59:12 and the RFCs talk about how an example in the original RFC was misinterpreted as a normative statement, which is especially fun as it's ambiguous 23:59:30 but pretty much everyone agrees that ECHO and SGA simultaneously mean character-at-a-time sending, even though it makes no sense 23:59:44 the debates are mostly about what happens if you just have one or the other