2010-08-01: 00:00:03 calamari: Uhhh, that's exactly what I thought you meant :P 00:01:00 ok 00:01:10 well thanks for getting me past that first hurdle 00:01:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:01:27 Gregor: Cyriak <3 00:04:38 Gregor: link me to that teddynom thing 00:07:14 http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif 00:07:25 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:07:37 oerjan has it bookmarked 00:08:17 actually i just typed codu and selected from the suggestions menu :D 00:11:12 wrt hackiki: i think it should be as a wiki on the side 00:11:18 I've been stepping through the Ubuntu install then forgetting about it for like hours now. 00:11:24 (Expert install) 00:11:27 if it's a bit too dangerous, we could consider using jsmips 00:11:35 It's not dangerous. 00:11:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:11:46 if the server runs freebsd then you can jail it 00:12:52 Is there no-one sane in this channel? 00:12:59 we have slight doubts about AnMaster 00:13:17 otherwise, no. 00:13:34 AnMaster is just "not sane" not "insane" 00:13:43 I thought AnMaster was excessively sane 00:13:47 as its own form of insanityt 00:13:49 *insanity 00:14:09 well there _could_ be someone sane among the people who never speak, i guess 00:15:51 ais523: have you seen AnMaster's optimisation options? 00:16:01 he's so sane crossed into the region of unsane 00:16:04 which is like insane but boring! 00:16:49 ...why did i not see Phantom_Hoover left just before i quoted him 00:16:59 THAT'S IMPOLITE, YOU RASCAL 00:17:31 especially since i'm pretty sure he doesn't read the logs. unless my previous hints have gotten through to him. 00:20:13 maybe he meant if you've checked from DSM you can't be sane <-- clearly anyone who checks stuff in the DSM has OCD at least 00:21:11 or hypochondria 00:21:55 although, do hypochondriacs usually go for _mental_ diseases? 00:22:00 no 00:22:21 (well, frequently. obviously not usually.) 00:23:48 Because we need someone sane to vet our Lisp OS ideas. 00:24:06 lisp is just an easy isomorphism to combinatory logic with mutation, anyhow. 00:24:50 We so totally don't, anyway. 00:24:53 Insanity sucks. 00:25:12 oh wait, you said _sane_. never mind. 00:26:10 sanity is kinda good 00:26:20 technically you need to stick within reasonable limits 00:26:25 and then you can go loose 00:26:36 so it's kinda like sanely insane 00:27:09 it's sane enough to reach levels of insanity which top pure insanity 00:27:20 this DOES kinda make sense if you think about it 00:27:28 erm 00:27:29 Sanity sucks. 00:27:35 compare: 00:27:53 "those guys run so fast and coordinated tied together, it's insane" 00:27:55 versus 00:28:10 "those guys keep getting tangled up and jerking each other around with the rope, it's insane" 00:28:25 i personally believe the former to be better 00:28:41 also consider nukes 00:28:48 * oerjan knew he should have listened to the voices telling him to drop the subject 00:29:12 if there was no sanity in building the nukes, there would be no working nukes 00:29:29 And ... that's a bad thing? 00:30:00 well, the "firepower" is a higher level of insane than if you were to just let people be loose and uncoordinated 00:30:10 i quite like organised sanity 00:30:13 erm 00:30:17 organised insanity 00:30:33 another example: forming a huge huge mob 00:30:43 and just swarming everywhere 00:31:29 i can't tell why you'd use nukes as an example. 00:31:52 mobs suck too 00:32:25 i think a nuke demonstrates the point of "organised insanity" in that the power of a nuke is INSANE 00:32:42 and by "mob" i mean a group of people gathered together 00:33:47 the people who thought up how to make nukes were mostly loner insane geniuses, I'd say. 00:33:50 the actual building, maybe not 00:35:08 and if the only people who had anything to do with the nukes were insane then they would not have been made 00:35:20 well, too insane 00:38:20 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 00:38:27 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:39:02 GreaseMonkey: you're denouncing insanity in #esoteric 00:39:04 sheesh man. 00:39:29 no i'm not, i'm promoting "organised insanity" 00:39:33 ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000082bc 00:39:40 that's gotta be what is causing my segfaults 00:40:26 oops 00:40:29 4 A person who was involved in a car accident was mistakenly pronounced dead at the scene by an ambulance officer. However, during the removal of the body, the victim was found to be still alive. Rushed to hospital, they died there later. 00:40:51 *the* victim was found... *they* died there later 00:41:43 *the* reader was anal... *they* were used to programming in esoteric languages 00:41:53 :) 00:43:30 hmmkay 00:44:10 where's phantom_hoover got to... 00:45:03 conspiring with his phantom friends 00:49:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:50:38 Now I got a "! Misplaced \omit" error. 00:51:00 It says "\multispan ->\omit" "\hline\end{tabulary}" 00:52:39 I also got undefined control sequence \TY@F4 00:52:50 I don't have any such control sequence in my document, I don't have \omit either 00:53:21 You're using some LaTeX command wrong, I guess; by causing it to do that. 00:53:43 Is "\hline\end{tabulary}" wrong? 00:53:51 Or am I using "\multispan" wrong? 00:54:20 I don't even have "\multispan" or "\omit" on this document! 00:55:03 If the hline thing is in your document, that must be wrong. 00:55:11 Put your document on sprunge and I'll have a look. 00:55:45 You can access it at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.tex 00:56:35 grmbl grmbl files that won't display in the browser 00:57:57 oerjan: I know in the browser I use I can push "t" to force display as text. But you can also use curl or wget to get the files, or use the view-source: function in the browser 00:58:07 zzo38: Strange: I cannot see an error in your code. Does it give a hint as to what line? 00:58:26 Line 49 00:59:14 Also, there is a lot of other problems too, table headings are formatting incorrectly, it also badly formats tables that take up multiple pages 00:59:18 zzo38: yeah yeah i know it's useless to complain you all just say "install linux and firefox" 01:00:17 It also prints "_LOOKUP _OF_SKILLS" at the top of the table of contents, for some reason that I don't know. 01:00:19 (i can easily save it and open in vim, it's just one click too much to bother.) 01:01:44 Also, it *still* says the Introduction is on page 3 even after I converted it to LaTeX, even though the Introduction is actually on page 7, just like before. 01:02:59 Also the contents entries for the different spells levels are not lined up properly 01:04:18 the problem with view-source in IE is that it doesn't become available before the browser actually displays the document _somehow_. i cannot get past the save/choose program dialog box. oh well. 01:05:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:05:07 Tables are still badly formatted, worse than before, even. 01:05:36 There are also two blank pages before chapter 5 and chapter 6 01:05:53 ooh, bet you can't guess what THIS does: http://www.ioccc.org/1994/tvr.c 01:06:02 See main.dvi 01:06:11 What table command are you using? 01:06:26 oh yay TeX... amirite? 01:06:29 zzo38: Do not use multicolumn for tables! 01:06:42 zzo38: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Tables 01:06:48 use the tabular environment 01:06:59 GreaseMonkey: Something with X, I suppose? 01:07:15 zzo38: yes, but look at what it spells out 01:07:30 Z <- Z^2 + C = ? 01:07:45 mandelbrot. 01:08:08 correct! 01:08:16 actually it spells Z -> Z^2 + C ? 01:08:42 alise: I did look at that tables 01:09:07 But {tabulary} is needed to make it automatically wrap text in columns 01:09:10 You're using multicolumn, though, which does not do the proper formatting for tables. 01:09:11 But it still does it badly 01:09:18 Howso? 01:09:28 By default, if the text in a column is too wide for the page, LaTeX won’t automatically wrap it. Using p{width} you can define a special type of column which will wrap-around the text as in a normal paragraph. You can pass the width using any unit supported by LaTeX, such as pt and cm, or command lengths, such as \textwidth.You can find a complete list in appendix Useful Measurement Macros. 01:10:01 I can't use that because it has to be generated automatically from the .irm files 01:10:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:10:51 zzo38: tabularx 01:10:58 \begin{tabularx}{\linewidth}{...tablespec...} 01:11:54 It also says I need "supertab" for multiple pages 01:12:09 Or "xtabular" 01:12:28 I don't know which ones I need or how they should be used 01:12:48 And the examples on Wikibooks do use \multicolumn 01:13:02 Which I try to use for the table headings 01:13:07 I think tabularx will work, no? 01:13:50 Does tabularx do all of these things? 01:14:13 Look at the main.dvi file (in the same directory as main.tex) to see what is going wrong!! 01:15:21 See that the "Character-Start Feats" table is partly off the page (on page 30) 01:15:42 I wish this was a pdf, so I could search it... 01:16:03 zzo38: you have two tables without a paragraph between them! 01:16:12 you need to use \par -- or, in stuff you write yourself, two newlines 01:16:56 See on page 49 it is cut off 01:17:57 OK, now it is a PDF. 01:17:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:18:22 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 01:18:32 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 01:18:44 What is wrong on 49? 01:19:35 The text is cut off (it should say "Duration" there), also there should be a line break before "Target" 01:19:56 Look also the list on page 48 is cut off 01:20:15 On page 47 there is too large space between section names 01:20:44 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Quit: Vegabondmx). 01:21:09 And why is page numbers in table of contents is wrong? 01:22:02 -!- jcp has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:22:22 I think the formatting worked much better when it was Plain TeX, but that one had problems as well 01:24:13 -!- javawizard has joined. 01:24:20 (I still have the files for printing it with Plain TeX, they are different files than the LaTeX files) 01:24:53 (The Plain TeX one is called "icoruma_tex.php" and "icoruma.tex" while the LaTeX one uses "icoruma_latex.php" only) 01:25:04 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp. 01:25:55 At least I know how icoruma.tex works! 01:26:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:26:23 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 01:26:38 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 01:26:53 Whether I use Plain TeX (and icoruma.tex) or if I use LaTeX, it is still wrong! 01:28:56 Did tabularx not work? 01:29:23 alise: It has the same problem and everything is still broken. 01:29:28 It isn't only the tables that are broken. 01:29:34 What else is broken? 01:29:59 A lot of things are cut off, spacing is all wrong, page numbers are still wrong..... 01:30:22 The formatting is worse than the macro packages I wrote myself. 01:30:39 You have probably used the wrong code. 01:30:48 Since your document still probably has non-LaTeXy things in there 01:30:59 What is cut off? 01:31:06 What is wrong with the page numbers? 01:31:40 A lot of things are cut off, some of the tables are, also the list of spells and the spell descriptions are both cut off 01:31:52 The page numbers in the table of contents are not the actual page numbers for those sections 01:31:59 They are four less than the actual page numbers 01:34:47 LaTeX just seems much more complicated than Plain TeX, I am going back to using my own 01:37:07 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why VS2010 is working when the installer says it failed to install 01:37:31 Sgeo: Microsoft software is all like that..... 01:54:44 ta 01:58:27 Maybe Later I will work on this printout of the rules for Icosahedral RPG. 01:58:34 But now I will do other things 01:59:56 Biiiiiiiiiig Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeen 02:00:23 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:00:43 Now say terrify. 02:00:48 Now say tissue. 02:00:53 Now say them both fast together. 02:00:55 the name rings a bell 02:01:05 Do you ever wonder why women always get a place to sleep? 02:01:32 no. 02:01:53 * oerjan has no idea what terrifytissue is supposed to mean 02:02:12 Well, I suppose it is because it is the weaker sex. 02:02:19 I don't think so. I believe they are stronger. 02:02:20 zzo38: You /are/ joking, right? 02:02:24 Do you know why I believe that? 02:02:30 Because they get enough sleep, that's why. 02:03:04 xD 02:03:14 alise: Actually I am just quoting something from this pinball game, those are the speech they say in the background it is probably from some old movie or something like that 02:05:32 Wow! I'm really good! I hit all of the drop targets! 02:07:53 -!- andynth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:08:03 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:15:36 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:18:02 dpkg lives!!!! 02:18:34 death powered killing golems 02:18:55 ooh death-powered, I like that :) 02:19:12 is there a special power released in death? 02:19:35 apparently. 02:20:35 now to see if I can compile egobf for android 02:22:36 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:28:54 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 02:40:26 well this would seem to answer my question except it doesn't work http://www.uclibc.org/FAQ.html#gnu_malloc 02:41:43 calamari: It doesn't work? How so? 02:42:14 egobfi8-bfi.o: In function `bf_interpret': 02:42:15 bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x74): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc' 02:42:15 bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x240): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc' 02:42:15 bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x34c): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc' 02:42:41 I got that. 02:42:44 But how does the solution not work. 02:42:57 Also, chalk that up to "when I wrote egobf, I sucked at autoconf" :P 02:42:57 export jm_cv_func_working_malloc=yes 02:42:58 export ac_cv_func_malloc_0_nonnull=yes 02:43:12 well I suck at autoconf*inf 02:43:22 Did you murder your config.status first? 02:43:30 I think that'll override exports if you're not careful. 02:43:48 trying 02:44:21 didn't help.. going to see if I can figure out how to add MALLOC_GLIBC_COMPA 02:44:25 +T 02:44:38 Uhh, presumably you're trying NOT to recompile libc here, right? 02:44:48 Oh, or are you not using Android's libc at all? 02:44:56 oh I was assuming that was something for autoconf 02:45:13 Nope 02:45:17 I'm using Android's libc.. bionic 02:45:36 Stupid fix: Configure, edit config.h to remove the relevant #define, and pray it doesn't regenerate it. 02:48:04 I think Gregor will like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtZfW2z9dw 02:48:10 Available in stunning 1080p HD! 02:48:30 It just seems like the kind of thing Gregor would link in here ten times in five minutes. :P 02:49:45 Hey hey hey ... I don't relink things with that frequency all that often ... 02:49:50 Suuuure 02:50:11 lol the subtitles are hd, that's about it 02:50:27 Nothing wrong with HD subtitles! 02:51:17 ... wtf. 02:51:19 wtfwtfwtf 02:51:22 ftw 02:51:25 wat 02:51:32 I'll spam link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8 instead 02:51:47 You just don't appreciate the beauty of music. 03:03:58 compiled.. trying it raw 03:08:37 I guess egobfc doesn't make much sense to include 03:12:06 so fast hehe 03:13:44 Gregor: apt will have to wait because it requires libraries I don't have yet 03:16:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=364dzVsBs2o#t=0m57s <-- This washing machine hates tomato plants. 03:16:25 Really, really loathes them. 03:17:30 -!- rodgort` has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 03:17:38 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:46:22 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:47:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:03:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:03:45 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 04:04:00 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 04:05:51 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/computergameidea 04:06:01 Which idea do you like/dislike? 04:09:03 "Sokoban on drugs!!" 04:10:26 Do you have anything to expand any of these? 04:10:34 Like, to add additional comments? 04:13:53 <6> is not a game 04:13:55 * oerjan ducks 04:14:22 Make it a game... with that title.... 04:14:30 *WHOOSH* 04:14:34 zzo38: pipe 04:14:40 think 04:18:08 Is SICP available free? Will I learn _good_ design from it? 04:18:22 What is SICP? 04:18:47 omfg 04:18:48 OMFG 04:18:50 I WANT <5> 04:18:52 WANT 04:19:56 Dislike the title-only ideas 04:20:10 Sgeo: You won't learn good design from it because it's nothing like C#. 04:20:34 alise, sarcasm, I presume? Or are you saying that I won't learn good _OOP_ design from it? 04:20:52 I meant you specifically won't because of C# Syndrome. 04:21:17 C# Syndrome? 04:21:32 I've known C# for less than a year 04:21:39 Sgeo: Yes I can understand you dislike the title-only ideas because it is only a title, it doesn't really help much, but it is possible to imagination more about what it might be like, a bit 04:22:14 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:22:14 I've known Python for... 6 years I think. If there's a Python syndrome, I may have it, but not C# Syndrome 04:22:52 Would you have any more specific ideas about anything on this list? Different people can have different ideas about it, I guess. And then if that is not specific enough other people (including me or even other people who did before) can add on to that, and so on 04:24:17 <13> sounds like it would be an interesting puzzle game 04:24:43 How is <5> not a subset of <8>? 04:24:44 Sgeo: It might, if I can think of how it might work 04:24:47 the magritte's pipes game could contain a lot of objects that look like pipes but turn out not to be when you pick them up 04:25:14 and pipe-looking landscape features, and such 04:25:54 Sgeo: <5> and <8> are two different things. By <8> I was thinking of something like "Tetanus on Drugs" (a GameBoy Advance game, Damian Yerrick wrote it and it is GNU GPL licensed) 04:33:59 Goodnight. 04:34:13 Night alise 04:34:27 Bye. 04:34:29 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:35:42 Did you know there are pink rotary payphones in Japan? 04:36:33 They are found in the back of issue 26:3 of 2600 04:37:46 can they be blueboxed 04:38:03 cheater99: I don't know. I wonder if someone has tried. 04:38:11 (Do you mean blueboxed? Or redboxed?) 04:38:37 (Redbox is the one for payphones, usually) 04:39:02 blue. 04:39:11 as in, the one that lets you do free international phonecalls. 04:39:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:39:29 cheater99: Yes, that is what the blue one can be used for 04:39:50 An early phreaking tool, the blue box is an electronic device that simulates a telephone operator's dialing console. It functions by replicating the tones used to switch long-distance calls and using them to route the user's own call, bypassing the normal switching mechanism. The most typical use of a blue box was to place free telephone calls 04:39:54 (Although to be specific, the blue box is simply used to generate a different type of tones than standard DTMF) 04:41:43 Silverbox is the one for generating sixteen DTMF tones. As far as anyone knows you can't make free calls with it, but it can be used to automatically dial phones or to send DTMF to a remote service that uses DTMF even if you have only a rotary phone. 04:42:04 However, I have tried this, the four extra tones do stop the dial tone on the phone I have at home! 04:43:02 So the service over here does recognize them, but might just treat any telephone number containing them as invalid, I don't actually know. 04:43:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:49:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: NO CARRIER). 05:10:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:11:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:15:33 idea: language where some commands are of the form 05:24:07 1 second apples and oranges? 05:37:17 Awesome :P 05:37:35 I just want "millenium hand and shrimp" to be legal 05:47:06 coppro++ 05:48:46 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:06:25 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:27:52 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:28:02 You haven't written it in green--your notes will be all wrong. 06:28:57 My conversion program Icoruma->TeX (without LaTeX) works completely perfectly when there are no tables involved! 07:00:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:01:46 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 07:05:12 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:21:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:34:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:55:47 -!- Flonk has joined. 08:56:15 Hi. 09:01:04 hi 09:01:22 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 09:01:42 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:01:48 -!- distant_figure has quit (Client Quit). 09:02:05 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:09:25 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 09:11:02 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:27:23 -!- tombom has joined. 10:05:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:19:02 -!- distant_1igure has joined. 10:21:20 -!- distant_1igure has quit (Client Quit). 10:33:16 -!- nooga has joined. 10:34:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:36:58 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:51:33 -!- derdon has joined. 11:16:25 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:20:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:37:41 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:49:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 11:59:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:59:54 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 12:00:09 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 12:04:25 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 12:32:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:37:14 ais523, is your first name Alex? 12:37:21 yes 12:37:49 * Phantom_Hoover kicks himself 12:37:59 I always thought it was Adam for some reason. 13:20:29 I always thought it was ais523 13:25:42 ais523, what does the 'i' stand for? 13:25:45 Ivan? 13:25:49 not quite 13:25:53 Igor? 13:25:54 does it really matter, though? 13:25:57 YES 13:27:15 * Phantom_Hoover can't think of any other male names beginning with I... 13:28:14 Ian? 13:32:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:32:14 :( 13:46:31 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 13:50:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:02:11 -!- Flonk has joined. 14:02:15 g'day 14:05:15 -!- thanatos has joined. 14:06:10 -!- alise has joined. 14:06:21 thanatos? 14:06:31 yep 14:07:50 Phantom_Hoover: i have thoughts on os, will discuss soon 14:07:59 Ooh, thoughts! 14:08:16 os? 14:08:17 thanatos, are you sane? 14:08:30 nop 14:08:32 sane people ruin oses 14:10:29 alise, fair enough. 14:10:38 :P 14:13:19 something more about sane people? 14:13:32 ? 14:13:58 alise, what are the thoughts? 14:14:18 thoughts are illusion 14:15:26 thanatos: this channel is for programming 14:15:38 Phantom_Hoover: busy atm will tell in a little while] 14:15:40 *while 14:16:28 esoteric is about programming? :o 14:16:55 this channel is about esoteric programming languages 14:16:57 not esoterica. 14:16:57 sorry. 14:17:19 maybe try somewhere else than freenode, this is a programming network mostly, for an esoterica channel 14:17:23 don't believe you :) 14:17:30 ... 14:17:38 thanatos: see the topic 14:17:42 * Topic for #esoteric is: (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D 14:17:44 some code 14:17:48 esolangs - esoteric languages 14:17:51 nearly-arbitrary code 14:17:55 or look at the logs 14:18:16 Phantom_Hoover: back me up here 14:18:36 em.... 14:19:12 cp alise alise.old 14:19:14 There. 14:19:23 har 14:19:33 Wait, now *I* need to go. 14:19:43 Phantom_Hoover: gah! for how long? 14:20:22 -!- thanatos has left (?). 14:22:14 -!- Fallensn0w has joined. 14:22:26 Phantom_Hoover: ? 14:22:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 14:22:42 hiya 14:22:48 hi 14:22:53 whats up 14:23:06 esoteric programming 14:23:43 lol ^^ 14:23:54 what lang? 14:24:00 any :p 14:24:06 lol 14:25:02 whats your fav esoteric lang lol 14:25:18 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:25:28 underload or one of cpressey's or oklopol's, not sure which 14:26:00 -!- relet has joined. 14:26:03 oh cool 14:26:25 underload's easy to program in though xd 14:26:40 (cpressey = Befunge, noit o' mnain worb, 5000 others -- catseye.tc guy) 14:26:44 (oklopol = insane) 14:26:50 lol 14:42:58 -!- nooga has joined. 14:51:12 cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel 14:52:17 Fallensn0w: what have you done in underload? 14:53:23 oh fallen snow, i thought it was fall en[d]s now 14:54:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:56:20 Alex INTERCAL Smith 14:56:41 Phantom_Hoover is a bit slow isn't he 14:57:09 i guess this would make more sense if ais had chosen the name, now he'd have to have changed it 15:28:09 sweet, Intercal is an awesome given name 15:28:15 I wonder why I haven't realized before 15:40:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:48:34 cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel 15:48:41 haha, no 15:49:32 orly? 15:51:04 well he is the NIH every-system-sucks let's-reinvent-computing types; and, man, just look at his esolangs 15:51:33 who is the sanest person here then? 15:51:35 actually while trying to figure out how Whothm works recently I ran into this quote from the documentation... (sec) 15:51:47 "I'd love to tell you about Whothm, but first I need to tell you about Joanie, the Gnostic Babysitter. Have you seen her? She's a very normal twelve-year-old girl, with very normal twelve-year-old girl concerns — she worries if her friends will make fun of her for liking different music than they do, worries if that cute boy in home room likes her or not, worries if she'll be able to achieve a transcendant state of gnosis at the moment of her physical de 15:51:47 ath so that her soul may be freed from the reincarnation cycle. Because, you see, she's a Gnostic. Not just curious about Gnosticism, not just going through a phase, or anything like that — Joanie is a die-hard, demiurge-rejecting, rotten-material-world-shunning Gnostic. And she charges $15 an hour. 15:51:47 OK, now I can tell you about Whothm." 15:51:55 So, yeah, I would very much doubt sanity. 15:52:04 AnMaster: Hehehe... 15:52:33 alise, well, it isn't you :P 15:52:38 alise: but... every system *does* suck, and computing *should* be reinvented :P 15:52:40 It's you. 15:52:45 olsner: yes, but :) 15:52:47 I would say ais except for INTERCAL and feather 15:52:55 ais is definitely crazy. 15:52:58 it's you. it's why you're boring 15:53:06 hm 15:53:07 :( 15:53:13 (*not POV, others have called you the sanest e.g. oerjan :D) 15:53:17 alise, Deewiant is pretty sane too 15:53:30 hmm 15:53:32 he uses D. 15:53:35 wait, nvm, x86-64 asm for that dobela interpreter 15:53:36 so not sane 15:53:43 (% typos) 15:54:13 alise, olsner seems quite sane 15:54:20 no. 15:54:29 can't remember him doing much but idling and saying a few lines every now and then 15:54:34 alise: :) 15:55:34 alise, hm... Sgeo is not actually insane is he? ... Just obsessed. 15:55:51 but it is true that I mostly idle around here... 15:56:27 AnMaster: necrophile 15:56:33 alise, who? 15:56:36 AnMaster: sgeo 15:56:39 wf 15:56:39 AnMaster: & thinks C# is nice 15:56:40 wtf* 15:56:46 whoosh 15:56:49 oh wait, this is a PSOX joke 15:56:50 right? 15:56:53 no 15:56:59 activeworlds joke then 15:57:08 that is really as good as dead 15:57:09 yes, & other old VRs 15:57:15 coppro invented the necrophile thing :P 15:57:19 "The main purpose of trigraphs and digraphs is so you can say "neener, neener, you didn't do it right" to some poor sap trying to write a tool that processes C and C++ source code." -- Walter Bright 15:57:29 AnMaster: besides, all my esoteric projects are all idling right now, waiting for my compiler to mature so I have something to write them in :) 15:57:32 alise, XD 15:57:36 olsner: what, that M++ thing? 15:57:45 no, a different thing 15:57:52 cool, what? 15:58:10 alise, I have to admit... I used them for that a couple of times. Only against people who I knew wouldn't take it badly though 15:58:16 alise, oh and what about cpp and TC? 15:58:20 got anywhere with that? 15:58:35 AnMaster: I think cpp is on the border between TC and not. 15:58:52 If someone linked me to the Game of Life implementation I could see if the lists would work. 15:59:06 game of life implementation of cpp? 15:59:09 wtf? 15:59:13 alise: nothing fancy really, kind of C-ish with modules instead of includes, and some random syntax changes 15:59:36 olsner, gc? 15:59:40 AnMaster: other way around 15:59:41 GoL in CPP 15:59:47 olsner: shame, i was hoping some crazy functional crap :) 15:59:52 I have haskell for that 15:59:55 alise, ah, I would link you, except I never heard about it before today 16:00:03 olsner: haskell is insufficiently theoretical (type system is too weak) 16:00:09 AnMaster: it's what spurred the TC cpp discussion 16:00:10 but it has a finite grid 16:00:13 so it's not in and of itself a proof 16:00:16 aha 16:00:22 "in and of itself" is such a weird idiom 16:00:30 agreed 16:00:30 well, I do have a couple of ideas for crazy functional crap... dunno if/when I'll get around to implementing any of them though 16:00:47 alise, almost as weird as "x is all but y" 16:00:56 (which is probably not weird to a native speaker) 16:01:38 at least "in and of itself" can be expanded to "in itself, and of itself" 16:01:39 so 16:01:48 "it's not, in itself, and of itself, a proof" 16:01:53 which is a lot more parseable 16:02:06 I bet Swedish has crazy idioms, though. 16:02:12 AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100731_010-027.jpg -- it's quite color-bandy, since it was snapped with the phone's normal camera app with full-auto settings, and also the sun took a peek at some point so the lighting changed; I did try the "LDR, variable WB" exposure optimization, but it mostly got the foresty part the same green, but made the sky be horribly surreal. 16:02:32 (Should've just done raw with fcam, but it's a bit slower, and didn't want to inconvenience others.) 16:02:36 otoh, since I've been reading TaPL I will aim to get a proper type system into this language 16:02:36 int main(void) 16:02:36 { 16:02:36 auto a = puts((char[:>)<%a='a'+'\a',-~a,!(int<:'a']){[!!'a':>="a"<:!a]%>}); 16:02:36 return 0; 16:02:36 } 16:02:53 fizzie, tried ldr, variable but with camera response unchecked? 16:02:54 olsner: If it's as weak as Haskell's I will shoot you. 16:02:57 that tends to give better results 16:02:58 I've been thinking about just using simply typed lambda calculus as the type system 16:03:03 (If it has typeclasses I will shoot you.) 16:03:05 fizzie, need a small error still 16:03:06 AnMaster: Hm, no; I could try that. 16:03:11 olsner: doesn't work 16:03:18 olsner: because, we need a type *, being the type of types 16:03:22 and for A,B in * 16:03:27 we conclude A->B in * 16:03:28 whereas 16:03:31 for A,B in X 16:03:38 fizzie, way quicker too 16:03:39 AnMaster: It's approximately from here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=60.215859,21.292362&spn=0.080239,0.208569&t=h&z=13 16:03:40 we conclude \(x:A). (y:B) in A->B 16:03:46 olsner: ^ so we can see that this does not work 16:03:54 why is my internet so slow 16:03:58 or wait 16:04:00 your upload 16:04:01 that's it 16:04:02 olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated 16:04:27 AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is. 16:04:37 fizzie, sorry 16:04:59 fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting 16:05:15 fizzie, 360°? 16:05:21 very nice though 16:05:27 Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill. 16:05:36 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:05:50 fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones 16:05:50 -!- alise has joined. 16:05:55 someone paste the last few lines plz 16:05:57 thx 16:05:59 :P 16:06:03 Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill. 16:06:04 * alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:06:04 fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones 16:06:10 more than that, I need 16:06:15 I missed more due to freeze 16:06:20 olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated 16:06:21 AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is. 16:06:21 fizzie, sorry 16:06:21 fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting 16:06:22 fizzie, 360°? 16:06:24 very nice though 16:06:26 thank you 16:06:27 Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill. 16:06:28 alise, freeze? 16:06:46 alise: hmm, I don't understand what you're saying, but do you have a reference to that De Bruijn proof checker you were talking about? 16:06:49 yeah, typing didn't work, nothing worked, ctrl+alt+f1 didn't work, just jerky mouse movements worked. 16:06:52 "Try drinking some antifreeze." (Note: do not actually try that.) 16:06:56 olsner: Freek has written about it. 16:07:00 alise, sysrq? 16:07:07 olsner: anyway: do you mean just using the STLC type system? 16:07:13 olsner: I thought you meant using STLC terms as types 16:07:24 using STLC terms as types 16:07:36 AnMaster: forgot to try 16:07:50 olsner: right. Well, you'd represent the type of a function from A to B as what, then? 16:07:50 alise, hm 16:08:00 alise, nothing in logs after reboot? 16:08:14 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:42 so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints 16:09:17 (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though) 16:09:29 -!- alise has joined. 16:09:32 It's fizzie's damn picture. 16:09:40 Makes Firefox hang the system when loading. 16:09:53 alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post. 16:09:57 fail, I wrote two lines of response just between "alise has quit" and "alise has joined" 16:10:01 Well, firefox doesn't like it. 16:10:10 so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints 16:10:10 (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though) 16:10:10 08:08:42 so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints 16:10:10 08:09:17 (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though) 16:10:11 Perhaps it's the content. Your system can't handle the pristine wilderness! 16:10:24 olsner: how hideously pointless is that? that's equivalent to (void (*) (int, int)) 16:10:47 obviously, in reality you wouldn't use it to write pointless examples 16:10:50 alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post. <-- true 16:11:01 fizzie, but I always use progressive jpeg 16:11:03 olsner: well anyway there has been a lot of good research done on type systems and i recommend you pick a better one ;) 16:11:05 not sure if that affects anything 16:11:20 olsner: i guess O'Caml's type system might be a good one to look at? 16:11:31 then again, maybe your system will work and I am a hopeless ...theoretician; wow, that's a word. 16:11:37 fizzie, I still wish I had the stuff needed to make a 360° spherical at full optical zoom. HDR. 16:11:55 fizzie, that would be quite a bit over 100 MP iirc 16:11:58 AnMaster: Any sort of variable-wb seems to insist on freaky sky (but nicely matching greenery); I think it simply needs more-than-two-parameters color correction in order to make both the sky and the shrubberies (ni!) match. 16:12:10 XD 16:12:15 alise: it should surely "work" as in "produce types", the practical usability is a different question :) 16:12:38 olsner: of course. 16:12:40 fizzie, very strange that though... That it would need more than 2 var wb 16:12:47 if types are first order beings, then why not just call them sets 16:12:59 oklopol: Coq and Agda do 16:13:06 oklopol: except Coq has Type with Set and Prop as descendants 16:13:08 alise, what system specs btw? 16:13:10 since propositions aren't really sets that much. 16:13:14 alise, since firefox here likes it 16:13:15 AnMaster: more than good enough 16:13:22 AnMaster: CPU isn't the fastest, but it blazes all the time 16:13:30 alise, sempron 3300+, 1.5 GB RAM. 72 tabs in firefox 16:13:33 olsner: i do warn you that if you introduce a type system like that you will end up with a functional language with bad syntax, unintentionally :D 16:13:39 AnMaster: I guess the default camera app might do any sort of "color-correction" postprocessing. It does some sort of edge-enhancing thing and horribly artifacty noise reduction already. 16:13:40 alise, a bit slow to zoom in and out but otherwise just fine 16:13:41 AnMaster: yeah, well, evidently there's some issue here with that imgae. 16:13:43 *image 16:13:49 i don't really need you to brag about how your system manages it 16:14:21 alise, I'm just pointing out that my old system manages it. Are you using that old thing with windows xp barely running on it? 16:14:24 What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed 16:14:28 I am crying 16:14:36 AnMaster: no, I'm running my good Toshiba 16:14:40 AnMaster: which has 4 GiB of RAM. 16:14:49 alise, no smell of solder yet? ;P 16:14:57 and, yes, only a 1.3 GHz dual-core Core 2, but dammit, ghz don't matter, it's fast 16:15:06 What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed <-- ? The first got renamed didn't it? The second I have no clue about 16:15:10 and I usually have 100+ CSS-y Javascript-y tabs open in firefox, so nyah 16:15:11 or do you mean something more recent? 16:15:18 as in, breaking news? 16:15:24 http://gizmodo.com/5601514/the-triceratops-never-existed-it-was-actually-a-young-version-of-another-dinosaur 16:15:27 See the title in that URL. 16:15:35 So, yes, new news; just not breaking. 16:16:10 hmm, I may also try to introduce type-functions that can produce code ... so many different ideas, I'll probably end up implementing none of them! 16:16:27 alise, ah interesting 16:16:30 Oh: 16:16:31 "It was already known that triceratops skulls changed throughout their development, but not that the final result was a torosaurus. Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner." 16:16:41 So more shoddy Gizmodo reporting. This is why I read engadget! 16:16:48 where is the date that was posted 16:16:53 olsner: type inferring is a bitch btw :P 16:16:58 AnMaster: sidebar at the top 16:17:02 gizmodo is also horribly laid out 16:17:05 ANOTHER REASON TO READ ENGADGET 16:17:14 ah there 16:17:17 although engadget's redesign is also shit. 16:17:29 alise, I'm not sure how dinosaurs apply to either site 16:17:42 alise: yeah, also it's awesome so I'd like to have that too :P 16:17:44 They tend to both include semi-random stuff the audience will like. 16:17:54 olsner: THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS 16:18:38 how large were those young triceratops? 16:19:04 dunno 16:19:15 but yeah, dammit, "Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner." 16:19:20 Gizmodo ruined my childhood TEMPORARILY. 16:19:22 mhm 16:19:31 what? 16:19:42 I get the temp bit 16:19:43 And Gizmodo KEPT A STOLEN PRE-RELEASE IPHONE 4. 16:19:47 Engadget would NEVER be so evil. 16:19:49 :| 16:19:52 but I don't get why it would ruin your childhood 16:19:57 AnMaster: DINOSORZ 16:20:15 "I almost took this seriously and then I discovered it was on Gizmodo." --reddit THE PUBLIC ARE TIRING OF INFERIOR GADGETRY SITES 16:20:20 *I am only getting paid a lot to say this 16:20:29 what about them? 16:20:34 dinosaurs I mean 16:21:37 DINO SORRRRRZ 16:22:42 sorry, didn't get that. Too much static. Try resending with reed-solomon 16:23:11 Open sores 16:23:19 old 16:23:59 Well, Ubuntu Rhythmbox has finally jumped off the deep-end and now opens on the Ubuntu One ... view, tab, whatever, rather than the library. 16:24:05 Clooooooooooooooooud Stooooooooooooooraaaaaaaaaage 16:24:19 -_- 16:24:23 alise, in what version? 16:24:29 10.04. 16:25:01 Maybe it doesn't, maybe I did something. But I don't think so. 16:25:16 huh, doesn't here. Maybe I uninstalled that part early on. 16:25:24 since there is actually no such tab 16:25:25 at all 16:25:42 Probably you hid the tab or something. 16:25:57 Hmm, now it starts in the proper tab. 16:26:09 AnMaster: You have the side pane on right? 16:26:13 Have you got "Stores" hidden? 16:26:22 err, just closed it *reopens to check* 16:26:57 So, I gotta finds me a music player. Not Banshee, Banshee is iTunes. 16:27:02 yes, says Library with several headings under it: (reverse i18ned titles): play queue, music, podcasts, radio 16:27:04 Maybe Quod Libet like last time, but *eh* 16:27:08 then there is a playlist heading a bit below 16:27:14 AnMaster: and no Stores heading? 16:27:18 then you're not on 10.04. 16:27:33 containing some "my hig...", "last pla..." and "most recently add.." 16:27:39 I don't like Exaile because it uses vertical tabs and those are an abomination 16:27:41 no stores anywhere 16:27:52 and I am on luicd 16:27:59 Dammit, why has nobody created something as good as Amarok 1 yet :P 16:28:02 (Amarok 2 is crap) 16:28:22 alise, but I think I removed all packages that showed up on a search for ubuntu-one 16:28:30 AnMaster: That's probably it, then. 16:28:41 AnMaster: That probably uninstalled ubuntu-desktop. Maybe not the best idea. 16:28:53 alise, no, ubuntu-desktop is still installed 16:29:01 I think they were recommends instead of depends 16:29:02 or such 16:29:04 Huh. Okay. 16:29:08 I think I might do that. 16:29:15 Fucking Canonical. 16:29:26 alise, of course with recommends you probably need to override some setting to make it treat it closer to suggests instead 16:29:29 How dare they try and make a profit, darned company :P 16:29:38 alise, :P 16:29:46 It is terribly intrusive though. 16:30:03 alise, install debfoster 16:30:06 Grr, I really should just implement my Perfect Music Daemon and Client. 16:30:10 very good to clean up the mess after upgrades ;P 16:30:19 AnMaster: you don't need debfoster 16:30:22 and it's deprecated since 2006 16:30:26 alise, oh? 16:30:33 AnMaster: you do install with aptitude, right? 16:31:06 alise, varies. apt-get, aptitude or synaptic 16:31:13 AnMaster: well, do not use apt-get. ever 16:31:19 i always use apt-get 16:31:24 why? it's like using dpkg. aptitude is the official debian package manager. And, furthermore: 16:31:28 alise, it supports the "installed as dep" stuff 16:31:31 aptitude automatically debfosters on every action basically. 16:31:39 alise, yes that is annoying 16:31:43 and this is why 16:31:44 "As of 2006-01-01, debfoster is officially deprecated: aptitude does the same stuff as debfoster but integrated into the apt system. To convert your debfoster data to the aptitude database, use the conversion script." 16:31:48 I only want it to do that when I tell it to 16:31:52 AnMaster: Okay, then: "apt-get autoremove". 16:31:55 indeed 16:31:57 Where's your debfoster now? 16:32:01 In HELL. 16:32:21 alise, because it seems on jaunty the entire default package set was marked as manually installed by default 16:32:34 and that didn't resolve completely after upgrading to lucid 16:32:41 so there is where 16:32:51 Good lord, why do people suck so much as software. 16:33:02 hm? 16:33:29 Songbird? Wikipedia, why the fuck do you call SONGBIRD a music player? It's more like a hideous Firefoxed abomination that simultaneously rips off iTunes, makes it somehow SLOWER, and adds a bunch of crap! 16:33:31 Rage. Raaage. 16:33:39 "Linux support for Songbird was discontinued in April, 2010." and nothing of value was lost 16:33:59 AnMaster: tl;dr software sucks 16:34:02 mozilla dropped linux support in a product? 16:34:24 Songbird isn't Mozilla. 16:34:29 ah 16:34:30 It just uses Firefox as the base code or something. 16:34:32 that explains it 16:34:36 Because it wants to be hellish and awful. 16:34:39 Which it succeeds at. 16:34:55 It is literally the biggest, slowest, most bloated piece of software that only irritates you that I have ever seen. 16:34:59 X has been displaced. 16:35:18 alise, yes. Btw I started using mobile versions of sites that have that even on desktop. Stuff like the Swedish equiv of BBC and such 16:35:21 way faster 16:35:31 loads like in a snap, unlike their normal site 16:35:35 Hee, in Britain our BBC has a well-designed website by default that loads instantly. 16:35:40 and easier to navigate 16:35:44 alise, yes indeed 16:35:52 And it, unbelievably, has a clean and simple, typographically-oriented design! 16:36:04 /And/ it's actually standards-compliant, and uses /RDF/: 16:36:05 16:36:12 /And/ their devs have blogs and stuff. 16:36:14 alise, compare loading time: http://mobil.sr.se/ http://sr.se/ 16:36:23 OUR NEWS CORPORATION IS MORE GEEKY THAN YOURS 16:36:33 AnMaster: Wow, sr.se loads slowly and is ugly. 16:36:42 http://mobil.sr.se/ is a bit craply designed for screen though, obviously. 16:37:00 AnMaster: Now compare with our BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10830485 16:37:02 alise, wrt sr.se: agreed. It was better before the redesign about a years ago 16:37:03 I THINK WE WIN 16:37:08 (Might not load as quickly outside of the UK.) 16:37:16 and yes the mobile one is obviously designed for stuff like my phone 16:37:22 it works very well in opera mini on my phone 16:37:49 What I'm saying here is that if you don't care about human rights or not sucking, we are a better country than you. 16:37:50 alise, that loads a bit slow from over here. Slightly faster than sr.se though 16:38:07 alise, iceland ftw 16:38:16 It takes maybe 1 second or so from completely refresh load (including all CSS, images, etc. from scratch (forced)). 16:38:28 I assume you saw that stuff about Assange and media heaven on iceland? 16:38:33 With everything cached apart from the page it loads in maybe .3 seconds. 16:38:36 (however he spells his name) 16:39:08 Heh, googling his name returns a bunch of anti-Wikileaks articles in the mainstream media. 16:39:12 Because of the Afghan stuff. 16:39:20 "Julian Assange: is 'Wikileaker' a crusade or ego trip?" --Telegraph 16:39:28 alise, mobil.sr.se loads in a fraction of a second on a complete reload. the bbc link loads in about 1.5 seconds, sr.se in about 2 16:39:28 AnMaster: But no, I didn't see that. 16:39:39 Yeah, but complete reloads are pointless :P 16:39:42 And our site is better designed so nyah 16:39:46 And you don't have to use the mobile site 16:39:47 http://www.immi.is/ 16:39:48 alise, ^ 16:39:56 AnMaster: I did hear that Rejkyavik or whatever elected a joke party. 16:40:02 Which turned out to actually be the best party in the elections. 16:40:17 alise, check that link out. Assange planted the idea originally from what I read 16:41:09 Awesome. 16:41:21 If only they had more than four people in the entire country. 16:41:29 still, the laws are not in place, they just decided that they will design them and put them in place 16:41:47 (The four people are Bjork, two of the members of Sigur Rós (the other two are fictional), and the Prime Minister.) 16:41:57 alise, there is about the same number of people in this Swedish equiv of county where I live and on Iceland. Slightly less on iceland iirc 16:42:42 alise, Sigur Rós? 16:43:03 AnMaster: a popular (well, in indie circles) post-rock band from Iceland. 16:43:36 alise, anyway they have cheap energy on iceland. Thermal energy. Looks like a haven for green data centers as long as you put in a dust filter (ash in the heatsink can't be good!) 16:43:36 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:43:54 Yeah. I just couldn't live somewhere so tiny, though. 16:44:06 hm 16:44:25 Well, as far as people go. 16:44:51 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Islande_-_Rekjavik_du_haut_de_la_cath%C3%A9drale.JPG This is Central Rekjavík. 'Nuff said. 16:45:11 how many inhabitants in Rekjavik? 16:45:57 118,427 in 277.1 km^2. 200,852 in 1,062.24 km^2 in the Greater Reykjavík Area (i.e. the only metropolitan area in Iceland). 16:46:07 (that latter total includes Reykjavík itself) 16:46:11 my guess is around the same as this town, which just happens to formally be a city. One of the last ones to become a city before they dropped the concept of special city rights (I think it was around 1920 or 1930 or so) 16:46:23 wait 16:46:29 118,427 inhabitants? 16:46:32 way more then 16:46:44 this city/town is like 20000 16:47:02 Total population of Iceland is 317,593, but the 100,000 or so not in the Greater Reykjavík Area just, like, live in volcanoes or something. 16:47:07 AnMaster: Well, it's still a very small place. 16:47:14 AnMaster: Besides. 16:47:20 AnMaster: The Greater Reykjavík Area is a large area of Iceland. 16:47:32 yeah, slightly larger than the largest city of this county-equiv. 16:47:34 AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/H%C3%B6fu%C3%B0borgarsv%C3%A6%C3%B0i.svg 16:47:40 AnMaster: That red portion is the Greater Reykjavík Area. 16:47:45 So really it's a county. 16:47:47 hm 16:47:51 alise, yeah 16:47:54 And consider that outside of there there is /no metropolises/. 16:47:58 Just villages and the like. 16:48:04 *there are /no metropolises/. 16:48:18 I'm not sure I would call Reykjavík a metropolis as such though 16:48:48 Newcastle, the nearest city to where I live, has 273,600 people in just 113 km^2. 16:48:52 In fact I'm pretty sure I *wouldn't* 16:48:58 So, yeah. 16:48:59 alise, that's pretty large 16:49:08 Yeah, but it's a "regular city" so to speak. 16:49:31 Oh, and Tyneside, a very small portion of England around it, has 800,000. 16:49:36 alise, remember that Stockholm including suburbs has about 1 000 000 inhabitants iirc 16:49:36 So yeah: Iceland is /almost empty/. 16:49:41 London is way larger than that 16:49:49 AnMaster: Well, Reykjavík has lots of technology and the like. 16:49:58 so UK "regular city" is larger than Swedish regular city 16:50:03 It is a very modern city with a lot of enterpriseyness (in fact, all of it in the country!) and the like. 16:50:06 AnMaster: London is not a regular city. 16:50:18 alise, well nor is Stockholm around here 16:50:19 AnMaster: London is /fucking huge/ by anyone's standards. 16:50:28 Greater London has /7,556,900 people/. 16:50:34 alise, Stockholm is fucking huge by Swedish standards! 16:50:39 In just 1,572 km^2. 16:50:57 and the Icelandic people must lack words to describe the size of london 16:51:15 "Thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand Reykjavík." 16:51:20 "Sorry, how many thousands was that?" 16:51:26 I can't be bothered to count 16:51:39 alise, scientific notation for the win 16:53:08 Maybe I should download those Afghan documents in case they get taken down. 16:53:18 Although they've gotta be on a billion torrents by now. 16:53:26 AnMaster: "This document, released by WikiLeaks on February 18th 2010 at 19:00 UTC, describes meetings between embassy chief Sam Watson (CDA) and members of the Icelandic government, together with British Ambassador Ian Whiting." 16:53:43 AnMaster: So much for supporting the Icelandic government for the Modern Media Initiative :D 16:53:49 alise, oh and London represents about 81% of the entire Swedish population (based on your figure and wikipedia's figure for the Swedish population) 16:54:08 London is basically a tiny country. :P 16:54:30 This (Finland) is a pretty empty place too, though the Helsinki metropolitan area is approaching something reasonably city-like in most scales; there's a tiny bit over a million in what's counted as the "urban area", and something like 1.3 million in those regions where 10 % or more of people have their jobs in Helsinki. 16:54:42 I think I would like Iceland, apart from the language 16:55:02 The language is pretty beautiful though. 16:55:11 fizzie: You have... things and people and other cities, though. 16:55:15 yeah but learning it? not a chance 16:55:24 I hate larger cities. a town on about 20000 is quite nice 16:55:26 "# U.S. Embassy profiles on Icelandic PM, Foreign Minister, Ambassador" 16:55:38 Are you /sure/ Iceland decided that initiative because of Wikileaks? :D 16:55:57 Where I am is quite a nice town. 16:56:08 11,139 people. 16:56:10 But it is a bit ... empty. 16:56:14 alise, well, I read a few news articles and watched a youtube interview of Assange from 2009 16:56:17 There's nothing much you can do at all, and few people. 16:56:22 it was that youtube video that made me look this up 16:56:26 where he talked about it 16:56:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham 16:56:32 think it was from December 2009 16:56:52 The Abbey is a bit creepy. 16:56:58 Iceland has a very nice ranking on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density list -- 232nd, in a list of 239. 16:57:07 fizzie, :D 16:57:17 fizzie: Fucking Greenland! 16:57:29 Hey, Australia is cheating. 16:57:36 anyway that number is not very representative, I mean it varies hugely between different parts of most countries 16:57:41 Norway and Finland both are out of the top-200, but Sweden's in (194th). 16:57:42 Australia is totally dense in all the places where /there's actually any people/ :P 16:58:01 Rather than just three people playing digeredoos or however you spell it per square million kilometers. 16:58:07 having some kind of graph showing distribution of it would be nice, I admit I have to work a bit on what exactly to show 16:58:15 Hell yeah, Macau 16:58:16 It's representative of the fraction of people in the country and area of the country, nothing more, nothing less. 16:58:17 a map with color coding for density is obvious 16:58:24 but I wanted a x/y style graph 16:58:38 Macau has 18,534.247 people per square kilometre 16:58:41 *kilometre. 16:58:43 Beat that. 16:59:06 (Note: It is only 29.2 km^2.) 16:59:09 I mean, Sweden is very very unevenly distributed 16:59:17 Whoa, holy shit, Monaco is only 1.95 km^2. So what do they have apart from the Formula 1 track? 16:59:28 Everything is very unevenly distributed. Well, except places like Monaco. 16:59:31 in north Sweden you can go for miles without getting a GSM signal (unless you have Telia) 16:59:52 Why Telia? 16:59:54 and telia is only because the govt (used to?) own a large part of their shares 16:59:58 Ah. 16:59:58 alise, I was getting to that :P 17:00:31 "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen." 17:00:35 Sweden is really bad at making things sound elegant. 17:00:42 alise, they used to be a completely state owned thing. But then there was that rage for making govt stuff private companies during the 1990s 17:00:43 Almost as bad as German. 17:00:44 *Swedish 17:00:51 AnMaster: We had that! 17:00:59 Thanks, Thatcher. 17:01:00 "Now everything changes. Again." 17:01:02 Thatcher. 17:01:04 "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen." <-- "Now everything change. Again." 17:01:07 Wait ... that doesn't work. 17:01:10 I don't think You *can* make that sound good 17:01:17 it is like the worst slogan ever. 17:01:23 *you 17:01:27 and I think Telia invented it 17:01:30 err typo 17:01:31 it doesn't appear on Apple's site. 17:01:34 wait, no, it does 17:01:38 "This changes everything. Again." 17:01:48 slightly better than "Now everything changes. Again." 17:01:52 alise, telia managed to say that maemo was a browser in their desc for n900 17:01:53 XD 17:01:59 At least it tells you /what/ is doing the changing. 17:02:32 alise: It's "Nyt kaikki muuttuu. Taas." (which is very close to "Now everything changes. Again.") on Sonera's (the Finnish iPhone exclusivity-holder) site. 17:02:39 Hey, Apple finally did what they should have done instead of the Mighty Mouse, and released their laptop touchpad as a standalone device. 17:02:42 Was that really so hard? 17:02:42 Wait, Sonera? 17:02:48 AnMaster: TeliaSonera. 17:02:49 Isn't it TeliaSonera these days? Actually 17:02:50 yeah 17:02:54 was getting to that 17:02:59 WHY DO I KNOW THAT. 17:03:00 they merged or something 17:03:01 AnMaster: sonera in finland 17:03:02 it seems 17:03:03 http://www.sonera.fi/ 17:03:08 The brand's still called Sonera. 17:03:09 so {Telia, Sonera} are brands of TeliaSonera 17:03:10 alise, hm and telia in Sweden 17:03:22 I mean, on stuff like the SIM cards and such it says Telia 17:03:28 The corporation's official name has Telia in it, I believe. 17:03:56 I believe they use TeliaSonera for there tire1 stuff 17:04:11 Well, there might be also a company called "Sonera" still; corporate ownership is a jungle. 17:04:22 tier* 17:04:29 "# Fontvieille was added as fourth ward, a newly constructed area reclaimed from the sea (in the 1970s)" 17:04:35 Dammit, we deserve more space! RECLAIM THE SEA. 17:04:36 why do I always mix up tire and tier 17:04:37 (Monaco) 17:04:43 http://www.teliasonera.com/Markets-and-Brands/ lists that Telia, Halebop (in Sweden) and Sonera, TeleFinland (in Finland) are "majority-owned companies" of TeliaSonera. 17:05:16 oh yeah, halebop is the so-called low price brand 17:05:25 So's TeleFinland. 17:05:27 "Note: for statistical purposes, the wards of Monaco are further subdivided into 173 city blocks (îlots)" 17:05:29 WHAT THE FUCK 17:05:33 THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS LESS THAN 2 KM^2 17:05:39 only web support. And when I calculated on the costs, telia turned out cheaper 17:05:41 HOW CAN YOU SUBDIVIDE IT INTO 6 FUCKING REGIONS 17:05:43 how ironic 17:05:44 I thought halebop was exclusively pre-paid cards? 17:05:46 THEN SUBDIVIDE THOSE INTO 173 17:05:51 Also the so-called "obnoxious phone sales" brand. 17:05:54 each îlot must be like 17:06:01 one square millimetre 17:06:01 that was due to sucky student discounts for halebop and better ones for telia 17:06:09 olsner, nop 17:06:15 oh, ok 17:06:29 fizzie: http://www.tele.fi/ 17:06:33 The person scares me. 17:06:36 Also the mouse. 17:06:46 http://www.halebop.se/start 17:06:51 The woman scares me. 17:06:51 alise: Oh gods, the guy. You should see the animated commercials. 17:06:57 Also every other drawing. 17:07:14 fizzie: Thanks to the power of YouTube, I can. 17:07:18 alise: Yes, it seems you can. 17:07:29 Try the "skeittimummo" one for starters. 17:07:29 fizzie, is it as bad as that ISP... I think it is bredbandsbolaget or perhaps comhem? They use some animated figure too 17:07:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc 17:07:31 What. 17:07:34 * AnMaster looks at olsner for help 17:07:50 It seems that you selected the right one independently, too. 17:07:56 Bredbandsbolaget are the only Swedish ISP to offer 100 Mb/s internet, I think. 17:07:57 Why do I Know that. 17:07:58 *know that 17:08:00 *know that. 17:08:12 fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYFwX-H3nY A 3D one. 17:08:12 AnMaster: I dunno 17:08:39 I don't watch television so I wouldn't have seen any such adverts 17:08:41 alise: Ooh, fancy. 17:08:46 alise: plenty others do too 17:09:12 and tele2 use a sheep. as a stupid play on sheep and cheap. which aren't even pronounced the same way, but do happen to sound quite close if you aren't good at English, due to Swedish missing one of those sound variants 17:09:13 -_- 17:09:24 We don't have a TV either, but I've still seen those commercials here and there; horrible. 17:09:46 Area Man[...] 17:10:24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc <-- oh god. What a failure 17:10:40 I don't watch TV. Could be as bad here. Don't know 17:10:42 Has anyone listened to an HDCD? 17:10:42 AnMaster: It's supposed to be "hip", you see. 17:10:52 alise: I have comhem 100/10 right now, used to have bahnhof before I moved here (which was technically 100/10 but they didn't seem to actually limit the upload) 17:11:19 -!- Warrigal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:11:35 remember that incomprehensible ad about cars. VW I think 17:11:53 this reminds me of that. But worse 17:12:06 Volkswagen adverts tend to be a bit strange. 17:12:16 alise, wasn't there something about pimp your car 17:12:17 or such 17:12:22 Nobody listened to an HDCD? 17:12:28 alise, what is an HDCD? 17:12:56 Some patented extension to Redbook stuffing more quality in there, some tricks to get 20 bits of signal out of 16 bit samples it seems. 17:13:00 Now owned by Microsoft. 17:13:22 alise, 20 bits out of 16? Go ask CSI for that 17:13:25 I'm doing some piracy; one of the rips is from the HDCD, so I'm just wondering whether it's worthwhile at all. 17:13:25 it's impossible 17:13:25 -!- Warrigal has joined. 17:13:30 unless you mean compressed 17:13:32 AnMaster: 17:13:33 or such 17:13:33 HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.[2][3][4][5] 17:13:33 HDCD encoding places a control signal in the least significant bit of a small subset of the 16-bit Red Book audio samples (a technique known as in-band signaling). The HDCD decoder in the consumer's CD or DVD player, if present, responds to the signal. If no decoder is present, the disc will be played as a regular CD. 17:13:34 In itself, the use of the first bit in the dithered least significant bit stream will degrade the sound quality on a non-HDCD player by decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio but only by a minuscule amount. HDCD Peak Extension, if chosen in HDCD mastering, will apply compression to the peaks which will be audible in playback on a non-HDCD system which does not apply the appropriate expansion curve. 17:13:55 Yes, based on the description it's more like 20 bits of dynamic range than 20 bits of precision. 17:13:59 Yes. 17:14:02 oh god... 17:14:19 good thing I haven't run into them. I hate noise 17:14:28 You don't have golden ears. 17:14:36 You can't hear it. 17:14:36 alise, and I doubt I could hear the difference between 16 and 20 bits 17:14:52 Hehe, if AnMaster is horrified by that, wait until he finds out what psychoacoustic encoders do. (I bet he thinks he can distinguish LAME -V2 from FLAC...) 17:15:27 alise, no I don't. I do however think I can hear a difference between your average non-lame encoder and flac :P 17:15:50 Well, if you mean the original one, or that awful one that I forget its name. 17:16:20 Doubtfully you could then hear the difference between 15 bits and 16 bits (w.r.t. added noise), especially if they're being clever with how it alters the least significant bit, and it sounds like they are. 17:16:54 Wait, why don't I just rip my own copy of the album. 17:17:00 Oh, right. I don't have a CD drive. 17:17:51 Eh, I guess I am too resistant to change; I will just download the regular FLAC rip. 17:18:02 alise, so you installed linux with usb stick? 17:18:04 ...although the HDCD version does have more seeders... 17:18:06 or pre-installed? 17:18:08 or netboot? 17:18:49 alise, I'm pretty sure you can play an ISO 17:18:50 AnMaster: Actually, I had no USB stick to hand! I used unetbootin -- random Linux ISO to USB stick + if on Windows USB bootloader installed, program, very useful -- to extract the Ubuntu ISO to the Windows drive (it can do that). 17:18:57 if nothing else, by using loop mount 17:19:00 I then booted up with the Unetbootin option in the Windows bootloader on next boot. 17:19:03 err not mount 17:19:07 obviously 17:19:12 losetup still 17:19:13 And voilà: it booted Ubuntu from the Windows drive. 17:19:28 Partitioning was fun, since it saw the CD-ROM drive weirdly as it was on another partition, virtual and stuff. 17:19:37 So I had to do some lazy, forced unmounting, then remounting it so the installer didn't break. 17:19:39 But it worked! 17:20:09 alise, had to work on first try, I mean. you get one chance, loading the iso into ram. And then once you overwrite it, it has to work 17:20:22 AnMaster: Hm? 17:20:34 No, I failed the first time and even ended up with a GRUB 2 without any files, which could do nothing. 17:20:34 alise, unless you are dual booting? 17:20:38 Eventually I fixed it with a USB stick. 17:20:40 AnMaster: Yeah, dual booting. 17:20:47 AnMaster: This laptop helpfully came with a "data" partition on half the disk. 17:20:49 So I just used that. 17:20:50 XD @ that fix 17:21:07 data partition, huh 17:21:14 Specifically, I used Unetbootin on the really shitty computer to get a USB stick with GRUB on it. 17:21:20 I then used GRUB to chainload the Windows bootloader. 17:21:25 hah 17:21:27 Once booted in, I used Unetbootin again, and this time did it right. 17:21:34 And, unbelievably, it worked. 17:21:39 AnMaster: Yeah, separate OS/data partition. 17:21:40 Like /home partition. 17:21:45 But more manual. 17:21:51 right 17:21:58 how large drive? 17:22:07 Hmm, why do I have six and a half gigabytes of swap? 17:22:18 AnMaster: 250 GB total. 17:22:32 hm, 17:22:48 AnMaster: 419 MB of what I think is some restore partition, 125 GB unused stock Toshiba-branded Windows 7, 118 GB ext4 Ubuntu, 6.4 GB inexplicable swap. 17:23:07 118 GB, won't last long 17:23:10 wouldn't for me at least 17:23:14 Consider that this laptop has a battery that lasts almost as long as a netbook's, is basically as light as a MacBook Air, 17:23:15 You can't "play an ISO" if you mean a regular .iso image of an audio CD, because regular .iso images are made of the 2048-byte data sectors, while audio CDs put 2352 bytes of audio data per frame, with less error-correction code. 17:23:32 has a wonderful screen that is glossy yet this is unnoticeable, but since it's not matte it's usable in daylight, and very high dpi, 17:23:40 has a good keyboard for a laptop 17:23:41 etc. 17:23:45 So I'm happy. 17:24:19 fizzie, wouldn't that be reflected in the iso file? 17:24:50 I'm voluntarily using this laptop instead of my iMac. So, yeah, I like it. 17:24:53 alise, does it have fluid drains from the keyboard? 17:25:06 No. Wouldn't you just tell me not to spill things, anyway? 17:25:07 alise, a trackpoint? 17:25:14 "Gee, you shouldn't be drinking near the computer." 17:25:19 No, but the trackpad is good and I'm just using a mouse. 17:25:34 alise, well I would avoid spilling things. It however nice to know that just in case, it is there 17:25:39 I don't drink near computer 17:25:40 I never said it's perfect. But all that list I gave you are things my laptop has and yours doesn't. :P 17:25:50 I drink near the computer, I'm just not in the habit of spilling things. 17:26:03 Besides, there's a protective layer of some sort underneath the keyboard, obviously; so you could just drain it manually if you really did spill something. 17:26:08 still, nice to know just in case, at university and such, Someone else might have a water bottle nearby 17:26:59 It's not like there's a circuit board directly underneath. 17:26:59 alise, how many express card slots? 17:27:05 AnMaster: 0. Thank god. 17:27:10 alise, why is that? 17:27:14 I never said it was your ideal laptop, just that it was mine. 17:27:24 AnMaster: No, because there's no metadata in the "file format", if you can call it that; it's just a dump of the data portion of a data CD. You couldn't even have multiple tracks in a .iso image. You can of course have a bit-exact audio CD image (in the .bin/.cue format, or some others), but it won't be a "ISO image" in the usual sense. 17:27:26 alise, well, I don't use the express card slot 17:27:30 AnMaster: PC Card esque things are a bit ... awful. 17:27:31 it is nice to have, just in case 17:27:40 alise, why? 17:27:42 Okay, so it's not even that big a deal. But! 17:27:48 The sides are all filled up. 17:28:05 I won't sacrifice a display port, one of the four USB ports, the Ethernet port, etc. for it. 17:28:09 Wait, maybe that is... 17:28:13 What is that? 17:28:16 Maybe an SD card slot. 17:28:31 one useless feature on my laptop: softmodem. There is a modem port at the back. I don't know why anyone still puts that in 17:28:36 ExpressCard is so confusing; there's all kinds of /34 or /54 things, what's up with the slashes. I grew up with PCMCIA/CardBus, and it was good enough for me. Get off my lawn! 17:29:26 fizzie, iirc I have one express card slot and one PC Card. Or something like that. When looking into the slots the connectors are different at the back anyway 17:30:21 however, a better use for that area would actually be re-arranging the internal components to have a larger battery pack instead 17:30:24 Right, they would be. ExpressCard/54 and CardBus/"PC Card" have the same width, but the PC Card connector is full-width. 17:30:29 would be heavier though 17:31:28 yeah, just checked, bottom one full width and top one less than full width 17:32:00 alise, how many usb ports? 17:32:10 Four. 17:32:15 Two on left, two on right. 17:32:19 alise, firewire? 17:32:22 None. 17:32:25 hah! 17:32:36 Ha ha ha, wait, I don't give a shit. 17:32:44 alise, displayport? 17:32:50 Yes. 17:32:50 iirc you said you liked it 17:32:52 hm 17:32:56 Or, at least, /some/ digital display connector. 17:33:01 They're so hard to tell apart these days. 17:33:16 alise, well, which one? isn't there some marking at it indicating which one 17:33:24 Yes. A rectangle. 17:33:28 Representing a screen. 17:33:40 that is what I have about the vga port on this 17:33:58 the DP one has a stylised D 17:34:02 It's especially hard now that they have three different sizes of standard HDMI ports. 17:34:12 fizzie, ... why? 17:34:29 AnMaster: Probably they were jealous of USB, which also has "normal", "mini" and "micro" variants. 17:34:40 alise, check xrandr. It just might tell you something useful 17:34:40 AnMaster: The three HDMI ports are also normal, mini and micro. 17:35:01 except mine tells me that VGA1, LVDS1, HDMI1, DP1 and DP2 all exist 17:35:03 HDMI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 17:35:05 where only LVDS is connected 17:35:08 DP1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 17:35:08 so don't trust it 17:35:08 DP2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 17:35:10 And VGA1. 17:35:11 So yeah. 17:35:14 ah 17:35:15 LVDS1 has the resolution list. 17:35:17 And the others don't. 17:35:19 well yes 17:35:23 LVDS would be internal 17:35:30 the other would contain external, if connected 17:35:53 it can't list monitor resolutions for unconnected monitors, obviously 17:35:56 Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1366 x 768, maximum 8192 x 8192 17:36:00 8192 x 8192, fuck yeah 17:36:06 Will that fry my screen if I try it? :D 17:36:19 alise, that is X support or something 17:36:20 I think 17:36:22 or maybe GPU 17:36:27 you can't get that on the screen 17:36:29 Will it downscale it for my screen? 17:36:31 Or just burp. 17:36:46 alise, video mode not supported error *probably*, but who knows 17:36:58 alise, you might get that old style scrollable virtual screen thing of X 17:37:00 If it's not on the actual resolution list, it most probably won't do anything. 17:37:00 remember that? 17:37:02 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:37:21 on my desktop I get: Screen 0: minimum 320 x 240, current 1680 x 1050, maximum 1680 x 1050 17:37:24 which is strange 17:37:28 since I know the card supports more 17:37:30 I used more on it 17:37:31 Though I guess changing the virtual screen size is possible too; I just thought xrandr only handles the physical state of outputs. 17:37:53 wait, I don't think the xrandr thing is loaded 17:37:54 maybe 17:37:58 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:38:05 there is no invert stuff and such 17:38:23 indeed, not in the modules list 17:38:27 What, no support for rotations? 17:38:36 Oh, is this the nvidia binary driver? 17:38:45 fizzie, yes 17:38:54 It has horrible xrandr support. 17:39:00 hm 17:39:31 fizzie, okay. but until noveau supports 3D well enough for my needs I'm stuck on it. 17:40:01 There's some sort of attempted support that if you pass Option "RandRRotation" to the nvidia driver, it'll try to fake it so that you can set the orientation with it. 17:40:18 heh 17:40:21 How can I tell what card I have again? I don't know much about this system. 17:40:40 alise, lspci, Xorg.0.log, dmesg, lshw ? 17:40:40 AnMaster: On the other hand, "Workstation RGB or CI overlay visuals will function at lower performance and the video overlay will not be available when RandRRotation is enabled." 17:40:46 glxinfo too. 17:40:49 and that 17:40:59 OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2 17:41:08 xdpyinfo perhaps 17:41:11 not sure 17:41:36 It has even been reported, although apparently without historical documentation, that Adolf Hitler was influenced by concave hollow-Earth ideas and sent an expedition in an unsuccessful attempt to spy on the British fleet by aiming infrared cameras up into the sky[7] (Wagner, 1999).[8] 17:42:12 What is a shame is that good old "ethtool --identify" ("initiates adapter-specific action intended to enable an operator to easily identify the adapter by sight. Typically this involves blinking one or more LEDs on the specific ethernet port") isn't -- I think; I haven't really made a survey out of this -- implemented by many modernish drivers. 17:42:13 fizzie: I have no such line in my glxinfo. 17:42:37 Well, "lspci" pretty often works too. 17:42:45 OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4 17:42:46 OpenGL vendor string: Tungsten Graphics, Inc 17:42:46 OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4 17:42:47 Ah, there we go. 17:42:55 So /that's/ why the graphics are so good on this. 17:42:55 wtf is tungsten graphics? 17:43:06 AnMaster: the Mesa developers, I think 17:43:07 alise, hey you have same as mine 17:43:11 it seems 17:43:17 Great card, innit. 17:43:21 alise, not really 17:43:24 The Mesa 3D Graphics Library Developer(s) VMware (previously Tungsten Graphics)[1] 17:43:29 alise, might have improved recently 17:43:32 AnMaster: Well, I like it. 17:43:35 Works great with Linux. 17:43:37 Absolutely great. 17:43:53 Tungsten Graphics apparently also maintain DRI. 17:43:56 alise, well, it (used to?) render some games incorrectly. But I haven't tried them since jaunty 17:44:00 so stuff might have changed 17:44:07 *sigh* I hate light pollution. 17:44:20 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Light_pollution_country_versus_city.png 17:44:41 What I wouldn't give to live in somewhere with as wonderful skies as the top image but with, you know, modern conveniences. 17:45:31 alise, oh and, last I tried (again under jaunty) my laptop failed to drive my desktop monitor at full res, It supported lower and higher but not the same as native 17:45:50 What resolution? 17:45:58 Around here it looks like the lower pic, except more orange. (We have lots of low-pressure sodium-vapor streetlights.) 17:46:01 alise, 1680x1050 17:47:00 bbl 17:47:24 * alise downloads the HDCD rip. 17:47:26 Why not, I guess. 17:47:30 It's the only one with enough seeders. 17:48:03 Does the info say if it's done by actually decoding the HDCD signal, or just out of the HDCD CD? 17:48:19 (It sounds like software support for HDCD isn't exactly widespread, since, you know, patented.) 17:48:30 fizzie: Decoded with DSP. 17:48:35 By dbpoweramp. 17:48:42 Into a 24-bit container, with 4 empty bits. 17:48:45 Padding, that is. 17:49:01 Ah, well, that's good, then. 17:49:48 A lot of blab in the comments about how zomg-amazing the drums are but, uh, I have a feeling they're full of shit. 17:49:56 I'm not sure if I have a 24-bit soundcard. How could I check? 17:51:22 Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program. 17:51:26 Huh, it's still developed. 17:51:46 Sorry, "CDDA Paranoia". :P 17:52:00 [[Cdparanoia is a Compact Disc Digital Audio (CDDA) Digital Audio Extraction (DAE) tool, commonly known on the net as a 'ripper'.]] 17:52:19 alise, your laptop does gbit ethernet? 17:52:19 Err... well, you could try "aplay -l" and then looking in the internet for the chipset name it gives. I'm not sure if there's any tool that directly would tell you what it managed to open or not. 17:52:43 AnMaster: Probably. "How can I check?" 17:52:43 Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program. <-- erhm, me? 17:53:02 fizzie: Just "HDA Intel". 17:53:06 alise, lspci | grep Ethernet 17:53:11 HD, so presumably 24-bit. 17:53:11 it might have it in the name 17:53:15 HD Audio and what not. 17:53:17 04:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM5787M Gigabit Ethernet PCI Express (rev 02) 17:53:24 07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Atheros AR8132 / L1c Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (rev c0) 17:53:25 Yes. 17:53:29 yeah 17:53:49 "Hardware based on Intel HD Audio specifications is capable of delivering 192-kHz 32-bit quality for two channels, and 96-kHz 32-bit for up to eight channels." Although of course that says nothing about my hardware. 17:53:56 "However, as of 2008[update], most audio hardware manufacturers do not implement the full high-end specification, especially 32-bit sampling resolution." 17:54:08 IN MY DAY WE HAD AC'97. 17:54:10 And we *liked* it. 17:54:19 You could try playing out your fancy 24-bit file, and then checking "pactl list"'s horribly long output as to what is the "Sample Specification" for the output sink it's going to. 17:54:26 alise, indeed. intel hda in my laptop too. Crappier sound than sb live 5.1 in desktop 17:54:33 especially for low notes 17:54:38 Well, I have crappy laptop speakers. So I don't care. 17:54:44 Which makes this 24-bit thing doubly pointless, but, uh. 17:54:44 and then I mean <70 Hz 17:54:47 Actually the speakers aren't crappy. 17:54:53 They're very good for laptop speakers; very good. 17:55:02 (Of course this assumes pulse would properly grok that the hardware supports 24-bit audio and not down-convert it.) 17:55:04 oh the speakers, they are crappy in my laptop. I compared with moving headphones 17:55:08 Not so good on the bass, yes... but still very good on the bass, compared to the tinny crap you get. 17:55:11 between laptop and desktop 17:55:19 Yeah, they're crappy, but all laptop speakers are. I'm relatively happy with these ones. 17:55:21 A bit too quiet though. 17:55:38 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:55:54 Anyone remember when Plextor was THE drive to get for audio extraction? 17:56:01 Well, *my* laptop has a potentiometer-based hardware volume control knob, which makes a delightful low-fi noise when you twiddle it. 17:56:09 They just rebrand other people's drives now. :( 17:56:19 fizzie, haha 17:56:22 man, I look so epically bad 17:56:37 AnMaster: (It's that pentium-100-or-so I don't really use.) 17:56:41 I look so epically bad 17:56:55 oops, sorry for the double message 17:57:14 coppro: pics or it didn't happen 17:57:21 alise: no thx 17:57:24 although i guess there is no "event" to "happen" 17:57:28 ah 17:57:29 unless we're talking in the sense of "time still existing" 17:57:34 suffice to say I'm dressed in a suit, which looks good 17:57:44 and I have a pink tie that I can't get to look quite right 17:57:44 alise: This is a bit late, but yes, I do use cdparanoia, for some small values of "use". (We don't really have that many audio CDs.) 17:58:09 The only reason to buy audio CDs is to get a good rip. 17:58:16 coppro: It's pink. 'Nuff said. 17:58:23 alise: precisely 17:58:35 Maybe you could dip it in ink? 17:58:49 What's that? Dip the pink 17:58:50 Tie in ink? 17:58:56 Wouldn't it sink? 17:59:20 it's supposed to be pink 17:59:20 alise: That's my particular kink. 17:59:29 I have a perfectly serviceable blue tie here too 17:59:34 but that just wouldn't be the same 17:59:57 Okay, how do I strip images from a FLAC file? 18:00:00 alise, this bug however causes mayhem for me currently: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/524281 18:00:09 fizzie: That's your kink? Well I do fink 18:00:10 s/however// 18:00:16 That's more than a little rinky-dink-dink. 18:01:35 Maybe I'll just compile Amarok 1. 18:01:42 It has the feature of not sucking. 18:02:32 Hmm, wait. There is also DeaDBeeF and Aqualung to consider... 18:02:55 Or I could run Foobar in wine. :) 18:03:17 AnMaster: Incidentally, the micro-HDMI connector is about the same size as micro-USB (2.8 x 6.4 mm, actually even a bit smaller), but it still has the full 19 pins of a regular HDMI connector. That's some seriously tiny pins. 18:03:49 heh 18:03:59 fizzie, what is wrong with the normal size? 18:04:00 Actually, Foobar in Wine isn't such a bad idea. 18:04:16 I mean, putting a db on a phone seems about useless 18:04:23 and on laptop standard size fits neatly 18:04:24 a db? 18:04:42 err, dp* 18:04:48 as in displayport 18:04:54 ... But if I'm using Foobar in Wine, why not just use DeaDBeeF? 18:04:57 well same goes for hdmi 18:05:02 fits neatly on a laptop too 18:05:03 AnMaster: It's very much not useless: you can watch your favourite movies on-the-go on the hotel TV. (Okay, so you'd probably also have that laptop, but still. And I've been traveling around with just the N900 lately.) 18:05:18 I hate hotels. 18:05:27 fizzie, ah I'm not the target audience I see 18:05:59 Yeah, AnMaster doesn't watch entertainment. 18:06:30 Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change light bulb? 18:06:31 A: Yes. 18:06:31 Q: How many Mercury programmers does it take to change light bulb? 18:06:31 A: Four. One to change the light bulb and three to distract the nurses. 18:06:38 I watch on youtube sometimes. I find the stuff on TV pretty much shit 18:06:54 I hate how they have a nice TV (with reasonable speakers) I could hook up the phone into in a hotel room, and then they completely screw any possibility of that by (a) not having any control buttons on the TV set, and (b) by providing only a "for dummies" variant of the TV remote, which doesn't make it possible to select any of the (four or so) external inputs of the TV. 18:06:54 too many bad american sitcoms 18:07:30 fizzie, your phone has hdmi? 18:07:52 No, but there's a (blurry) composite-video/RCA-audio thing. 18:08:00 fizzie: Carry around a universal remote. :P 18:09:06 WINE is so ugly. 18:09:16 alise: The phone is a universal remote (it has a IR diode), but those TV models are always some sort of weird "business purposes only" models, and I can never find any lirc remote-protocol-files for them. (Of course a real universal remote would probably have some working codes; I don't usually have enough patience to start downloading files for non-matching models.) 18:10:06 Also I hear real universal remotes have nifty "point it at the TV, then press a button when something happens" auto-detection thingies. 18:10:32 I bought one that required you to hold down a button for like a minute then press something. 18:10:36 It was a fucking bitch-ass shitter. 18:10:37 :| 18:11:58 What the what? I wasn't looking, and someone has added to this N900 QtIrreco tool a "download a remote from DB" choice. 18:12:37 Okay, the "DB" it uses seems to be pretty tiny. Phew. I was afraid something was going to non-suck. 18:13:18 There's surprisingly many air-conditioning systems listed; I didn't even know those have remote control in general. 18:14:46 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:15:29 -!- Fallensn0w has quit (Quit: g2g... follow me @fallensn0w at twitter). 18:15:36 O! Now I have corrected all problems with Icoruma->TeX program, except for overfull hboxes in tables. 18:15:37 -!- nooga has joined. 18:18:37 alise: Here's one way you could try for 24-bit sound: (with the volume way down) "aplay -L", then "aplay -D xxx -f S24_LE any.random.file", where xxx is a name from -L's list -- it'll try to play the file as raw audio data, and (at least here) say "Sample format non available; Available formats: [list]". (I'm just not completely sure I trust it, since it says that my hardware will play S16_LE and S32_LE, which sounds suspicious.) 18:19:36 My idea might be to make it calculate the minimum width of a paragraph box for only one word in a line, and the minimum width of all the words are on one line, and then insert a glue that stretches between those two widths? 18:19:41 Will this work? 18:20:45 Perhaps I will have to make it calculate the entire table before placing it on the page, similar to how I have it calculate the entire document before it ships it out 18:23:53 zzo38: You know, none of us have any idea what you're trying to do unless you tell us ... 18:24:20 alise: I thought I did tell you ... 18:24:28 Oh, you did. 18:24:31 What part of this do you not understand? 18:24:34 It got lost in fizzie's messages. Sorry. 18:25:01 fizzie only sent one message in between! 18:25:30 i already know my idea is awesome and works so i don't really care about you ppl's opinion 18:26:19 Ladies and Gentlemen, 18:26:21 I present to you 18:26:25 The world Linux UI design 18:26:25 EVER 18:26:27 http://imgur.com/Ru2kI.png 18:26:30 AnMaster: fizzie: 18:26:35 world ever, totally 18:26:35 Well, the UI is okay, with a different theme. 18:26:37 But the VISUALS. 18:26:53 anyone here an expert in 2-structures 18:26:58 (on) 18:27:11 What does "world Linux UI design" mean? 18:27:31 s/// 18:27:38 worst UI 18:27:40 not world, oops 18:28:03 s//l/ s//s/ 18:28:15 oh 18:28:17 t != d 18:28:22 so probably not a typo 18:28:30 not a finger typo that is 18:28:45 Whether it is the worst or not I don't know, but what I do know is I would make the UI entirely differently than that 18:28:48 i guess you don't have those anyway being a supertyper 18:29:03 As well as the feature set 18:31:53 oklopol: I do make tons of typos. 18:31:59 I just correct them in less than a second. 18:32:11 okay 18:32:14 I do have lots of thinkos, however, as I type thoughts as they are formed. I imagine most people type /after/ thinking ... 18:32:21 they say that's bad 18:32:44 i usually think while typing too, but i both type and think rather slow so 18:32:53 ...so what? 18:32:54 no idea 18:33:45 alise: most people think after typing :D 18:33:54 ha 18:34:44 I type fast, and often I do correct them in less than a second 18:35:11 But I type much faster when copying from something I have previously written on paper than when I am writing something new 18:35:47 Because when I write something new, I have to think of how I should write it down to make it meaningful and stuff like that 18:40:00 I write new thoughts quicker than copying. 18:41:15 fizzie: I'm playing the file; what command should I do, did you say? 18:43:16 But I am different because when I have new thoughts I have to think of how to write it. Writing new thoughts is not that much slower for me, though, than copying from a paper 18:43:22 But it is slightly slower 18:52:12 These speakers could do with more volume. 18:52:16 Maybe I'll just compress everything :P 18:53:29 Here's something that's Very Hard To Rip: Hidden tracks in the pregap of track 1 -- can be listened to by rewinding to "track 0" on most CD players. 18:53:35 But many, many CD-ROM drives simply cannot do it. 18:54:25 alise: Come to think of it, you could just use "mplayer -v" and check the messages. On my system, "mplayer -ao alsa -format s24le -v blah" says "[AO_ALSA] Format s24le is not supported by hardware, trying default" and builds a filter chain; s16le and s32le come out of the hardware. (I guess it's possible it fakes the 32-bit at some layer, but I don't think it should if you use a directly-hardwarey ALSA device.) 18:54:57 Ah well, it sounds alright; I wouldn't be able to tell on these speakers, anyway. 18:55:15 If I had a proper chair and some good speakers plugged in, I would be content. Yes, with the 13" screen; I've no problems with it. 18:55:31 In fact with excessive screen space I always get a little scared, what can I do with all this space that will do it justice and such. :P 18:55:31 Oh, right, the earlier command: pactl list | grep 'Sample Specification' 18:55:49 Just a bunch of lines with "16" in them. 18:55:49 If there's something more-than-16-bits going on there, it's probably playing with many bits. 18:55:50 Oh Well. 18:56:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_albums_with_tracks_hidden_in_the_pregap 18:56:15 List of albums that are almost impossible to rip properly 18:56:53 Someone hilighted me 18:57:09 about sanity. 18:58:55 Indeed 19:03:30 Pet peeve: The spectrum analyser bars you see in music players. 19:03:35 They're useless and distracting. 19:05:09 Pet peeve: Music players with GUIs. 19:05:13 They're useless and distracting. 19:05:28 Surely those bars are there for fun? So surely they're disableable? 19:05:47 Yeah, one does not imply the other :/ 19:06:04 Fun, pah. 19:06:12 Stick to super cow powers. 19:06:23 Gregor: They're not useless if you're trying to navigate a ton of music... 19:06:27 ...so I suppose you use mpdc? 19:06:36 Or, lemme guess 19:06:41 You manually play the audio files 19:06:55 mplayer + bash = my music player 19:07:15 I navigate my music library with cd. 19:07:15 Thought so. I'd elaborate why th-- but that would be elaborating, finishing that sentence; so I won't. 19:07:16 alise: Apparently (source: interwebs) even if your hardware supports 24-bit audio, if you're playing through pulse, the PulseAudio daemon needs to be configured (via /etc/pulse/daemon.conf) to have a default sample format of something higher than s16le, otherwise everything will be clipped to that. (And after that everything you play will be internally converted to that many bits, adding to the resource drain. The same thing if you bump things up to 96 kHz or s 19:07:17 omething.) 19:07:35 fizzie: Playing through ALSA (though Pulse is running.) 19:07:42 Or does Pulse override ALSA? 19:08:04 The default configuration makes the default alsa device direct things to PulseAudio, I think. 19:08:29 Feh. Oh well. 19:08:47 But yes, with laptop speakers you probably shouldn't care. 19:08:52 I can't even understand why people like PulseAudio. 19:08:55 It has absolutely no ... features. 19:09:17 "PulseAudio is an integral part of all relevant modern Linux distributions" 19:09:23 By defining "relevant" to mean "ones that use PulseAudio". 19:09:36 alise: So that you can get that "ding" sound when you do something wrong on top of the music you have playing on the background. (Discounting for a moment ALSA's own software mixer.) 19:09:53 Discounting the thing that already does a thing, it can do a thing! 19:09:53 Oh, and the "bep-drweeedle" sounds when someone sends you an IM message. 19:10:08 Another pet peeve: UI sounds. 19:10:11 "bep-drweeedle" 19:10:12 Wow :P 19:10:16 Okay, the IM message notifications are quite useful, but. 19:10:24 It doesn't really sound like "bep-drweeedle". :P 19:10:34 More like "BAdum!". 19:10:56 When first adopted by the distributions PulseAudio developer Lennart Poettering described it as "the software that currently breaks your audio".[6] Poettering later claimed that "Ubuntu didn't exactly do a stellar job. They didn't do their homework" in adopting PulseAudio[7] for Ubuntu "Hardy Heron" (8.04), a problem which was then improved with subsequent Ubuntu releases.[8] However, Poettering is still not happy with Ubuntu's integration of PulseAudio.[9] 19:11:03 Wow, even the PulseAudio dev thinks Ubuntu's is especially crap. 19:11:46 Gregor: A friend of mine once did a Doom .wad file; for the door-opening and door-closing sounds, he substituted himself saying, in a laconic tone of voice, respectively, "clink-schloink" and "schlink-cloink". For some reason it was hilarious. 19:12:19 XD 19:12:42 Used to like an online station-like thingy called PulsRadio... 19:13:10 But the VISUALS. <-- visuals? 19:13:11 Puls'Radio - Non-Stop Dance And Trance Music - Web Radio Trance ... 19:13:11 - [ Translate this page ] 19:13:11 Webradio orientée musique électronique dancefloor. 19:13:11 www.pulsradio.com/ - Cached - Similar 19:13:17 AnMaster: see my link 19:13:20 AnMaster: the visual appearance of it 19:13:27 rather than the other, important part of the UI (functionality, which is fine) 19:13:32 but that default theme! 19:13:43 alise, rewrite it in motif. Then there will be one worse 19:14:01 AnMaster: Did you CLICK the link? 19:14:11 http://i.imgur.com/Ru2kI.png ? yes 19:14:22 Motif looks way better than that. 19:14:37 alise, what about xine? 19:14:39 Oh, and for music player comparisons; my current one is xmms2 and the "nyxmms2" CLI. The project is sadly a bit dead. 19:14:50 AnMaster: Bad, but... not /that/ bad. 19:14:58 nyxmms2 or xmms2? 19:15:02 xmms2 isn't really that dead afaik. 19:15:13 Anyway, mpd and xmms2 have the flaws that I didn't write them. 19:15:17 Well, not *dead*, just sort of.. slowey. 19:15:21 alise, what is so bad about this one? The bg pattern is quite awful yes 19:15:33 and colour choices could be better 19:15:35 AnMaster: The colours, and the background. 19:15:37 but worst? no? 19:15:54 Well, no, but it did make me puke when I clicked on "default" theme after it started in "plain" theme (which is very very reasonable, GTK style). 19:15:56 alise, what are the three sliders 19:16:00 one is probably position 19:16:04 and one could be volume 19:16:08 the third one? 19:16:08 Volume, balance (I think), position. 19:16:11 Balance because it's short and in the middle. 19:16:14 And next to volume. 19:16:24 I dislike UIs where you have to hover the mouse to figure out what stuff is 19:16:24 As in L/R channel balance. 19:16:33 XMMS2's "AAC/MP4 (via faad2) and ASF/WMA (via ffmpeg) and libao output and whatnot" plugin developer's a friend, so I felt sort of obligated to try it out; it's passable. 19:16:36 at least when there is no reason for it 19:17:00 Can ffmpeg actually poop crap out to an audio device? To use the correct terminology. 19:17:02 I guess not. 19:17:11 Hmm, why didn't I know of libao before? 19:17:44 libao? some audio library, iirc... But then there are more audio libraries than there are GUI toolkits these days 19:17:56 Xiph.org's. 19:17:59 So you Know It's Good. 19:18:02 It's what mplayer uses by default too. 19:18:11 I think. 19:18:13 theora sucks, and aren't they behind it? 19:18:21 vorbis is good yes 19:18:21 Theora sucks, /but/ it was a Good Try. 19:18:25 Theora is /old/. 19:18:28 ah 19:18:32 older than vorbis? 19:18:32 When it was released it was /unbearable/. 19:18:36 Then they made it acceptable. 19:18:39 AnMaster: No. But old. 19:18:44 And it was dormant when they got ahold of it. 19:18:49 alise, how old is old? 19:18:53 Then they made it... you know, bad, but not terrible. 19:18:54 * Sgeo wonders what alise thinks of VP8 19:18:57 AnMaster: I don't know. 2003 or something. 19:19:04 "libao" as in "audio output"; it's meant for cross-platform audio output; writes to files (in various formats) as well as platform-dependant audio-hardware things. 19:19:14 heh. 19:19:14 Sgeo: It's still not as good as H.264, and never will be. 19:19:18 alise, 2003 isn't old 19:19:29 AnMaster: It is when the codec it's based on 19:19:30 is 19:19:42 hmm how old is VP3 19:19:47 sigh, why do I feel so old suddenly -_- 19:19:47 VP3.1 was introduced in May 2000 followed three months later by the VP3.2 release,[11][12] which is the basis for Theora. 19:19:54 It's old for /this stuff/. 19:20:04 Dammit, I don't have a warped perception of time, I just have a context-dependent one. 19:20:07 In 2000, video encoding SUCKED. 19:20:14 well yes 19:20:22 alise, remember .au? 19:20:24 for audio 19:20:27 And it's hard to make a format from then not suck. 19:20:34 AnMaster: Don't remember, but have seen since many times. 19:20:37 (Since it's been obsolete.) 19:20:59 ah, you are too young yeah 19:21:11 alise, wait, what about qt in around 2001 or so? 19:21:15 alise: Hey, now... already in 1998 we had "DivX ;-) 3.11 Alpha". 19:21:21 QuickTime I dealt with when it was horrible, horrible on Windows. 19:21:23 (Still is, but, you know.) 19:21:28 fizzie, with a smilie? 19:21:31 AnMaster: Yes. 19:21:35 AnMaster: The smilie is part of the name, yes. 19:21:38 smiley* 19:21:51 DivX ;-) (not DivX) 3.11 Alpha and later 3.xx versions refers to a hacked version of the Microsoft MPEG-4 Version 3 video codec (not to be mistaken with MPEG-4 Part 3) from Windows Media Tools 4 codecs.[4][5] The video codec, which was actually not MPEG-4 compliant, was extracted around 1998 by French hacker Jerome Rota (also known as Gej) at Montpellier. The Microsoft codec originally required that the compressed output be put in an ASF file. It was alter 19:21:51 ed to allow other containers such as Audio Video Interleave (AVI).[6] Rota hacked the Microsoft codec because newer versions of the Windows Media Player wouldn't play his video portfolio and résumé that were encoded with it. Instead of re-encoding his portfolio, Rota and German hacker Max Morice decided to reverse engineer the codec, which "took about a week".[7] 19:22:02 alise, I never dealt with qt on windows back then 19:22:08 alise, did deal with it on mac 19:22:16 The "DivX" brand is distinct from "DIVX" (Digital Video Express), an unrelated attempt by the now defunct U.S. retailer Circuit City to develop a video rental system requiring special discs and players.[1] The winking emoticon in the early "DivX ;-)" codec name was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the failed DIVX system. The DivX company then adopted the name of the popular DivX ;-) codec (which was not created by them), dropped the smiley and released DivX 19:22:16 4.0, which was actually the first DivX version. (Note that DivX ;-) and DivX are separate products and are created by different people; the former is not an older version of the latter). The DivX name is its trademark.[2][3] It is pronounced DIV-ex. 19:22:22 alise, I mean, myst for mac uses qt for the embedded animations and such 19:22:27 fizzie: So note that DivX as you know it is NOT affiliated with, or based on, the old DivX ;-). 19:22:30 They just stole the name. 19:22:34 and that is even older 19:22:56 I never had the attention span for Myst. Gimme Monkey Island. 19:23:06 So, ffmpeg + libao seems to be a way better solution than Xine and GStreamer. 19:23:09 Why doesn't everything use it? 19:23:37 alise, I never played monkey island 19:23:42 I wonder if I am not getting old myself; my Emacs font is really big. 19:23:44 alise: Not based on, but I remember videos from the time of the smiley. They're all "sort-of MPEG-4 except not" anyway. 19:23:49 oh and does it surprise you that I had the required attention span? 19:23:54 AnMaster: Yes. 19:23:58 alise, to solve it without walkthroughs 19:24:00 Since you've said you have severe ADHD. 19:24:05 alise, no I didn't. 19:24:11 I thought you did. 19:24:14 I said I had *light* ADHD 19:24:28 Oh. I thought you said bad ADHD becoming light ADHD w/ Ritalin. 19:24:50 no, also I said it in /msg under condition of keeping it there iirc. 19:24:56 sigh 19:25:05 Sorry; I didn't remember. 19:25:13 Telling me things is usually a bad idea. :P 19:25:19 right... 19:25:36 anyway. myst was fun 19:25:39 Myst was nice; I got it as a birthday present when the Windows port was new, or at least new-ish. 19:25:49 looked a lot better back then than it does when replayed today 19:26:10 I mean, you didn't noticed the dithering very much on an old performa (built in) CRT 19:26:22 it was how everything looked on displays after all 19:26:36 and CRT doesn't give a crystal clear picture like TFTs do 19:26:46 CRTs don't* 19:27:46 I think I saw "Myst: Masterpiece Edition" somewhere in a bin; I'm a bit sorry that I didn't get it, but since I already had the original... (it has the graphics re-rendered as 24-bit bitmaps, as opposed to the 256-color palette+dithering ones; and also some works-better-in-newer-Windowses stuff). 19:28:20 fizzie, ah, I run it in sheepshaver nowdays 19:28:28 Wait, what? I actually *did* buy it? At least there's one of those tall-DVD-case-thingies in the shelf with "MYST: masterpiece edition" printed on it. 19:28:36 haha 19:28:39 fizzie, never played it? 19:28:42 BELIAL IS BACK 19:28:50 Still needs a better name. 19:28:56 "Every graphic element has been upgraded to brilliant 24-bit color". 19:29:14 AnMaster: I... don't remember. I remember re-playing Myst not long ago, but I thought it was the old one, not this new one. 19:29:19 alise, um. this sounds familiar. but no I can't locate wtf belial is 19:29:38 AnMaster: my vapourware music daemon 19:29:42 fizzie, time to replay yet again? 19:29:47 Vapourware no more! Not another day I have to sleep at the unit: so I have time! 19:29:50 What I should do is combine features of ImageMagick and SoX in one program called "Image Exchange" and -density sets the sample rate. And to play a audio file backwards and with echo you can type in: imx file1.wav -flop +echo play: 19:29:52 Also: "Larger and higher quality movies and animations"; after all, the book-entering animation clips in original Myst were something like 160x120 pixels. 19:30:03 fizzie, oh btw for that image, if you can't correct white balance, it might be worth a try to just do vignetting 19:30:40 fizzie, and perhaps try without exposure correction. It could be what is messing up the sky. Well I don't know how it is messed up so hard to tell.. 19:30:54 And: "Proprietary DigitalGuide™ help system assists players of every skill level" 19:31:05 fizzie, whaat? 19:31:33 There's some sort of built-in walkthrough, I guess. 19:31:34 if you need a walkthrough... use google to find something at ign or whatever 19:31:45 built in ones is just... cheating 19:32:01 XDX 19:32:02 *XD 19:32:06 I remember UHS. Anyone remember UHS? 19:32:09 no? 19:32:13 Universal Hint System. 19:32:17 what was that 19:32:18 alise: I wrote a perl script to convert UHS files to a XML format. 19:32:21 You'd ask it a question about a game by clicking on it, and it'd give you a vague hint. 19:32:24 Click again, more specific. 19:32:30 After -- I think on the fifth hint -- it told you outright. 19:32:42 The program plus a few hint files for games could fit on one floppy. 19:32:43 alise, was this in the game or a separate product? 19:32:47 Separate product. 19:32:50 ah 19:32:58 Seems it still exists. 19:33:00 http://www.uhs-hints.com/ 19:33:14 but vague hint for an entire game... that doesn't work for most games 19:33:18 No. 19:33:21 For one specific puzzle. 19:33:23 Or whatever. 19:33:25 hm 19:33:36 Inside the game it would have a bunch of little problems you might encounter, then you could just click to get more and more specific hints. 19:33:45 Probably the most... tasteful hint system existing, with the discretion and all. 19:34:08 Hm, there's uhs2xml.pl, xml2html.pl and showxml.pl here. 19:34:08 I can think of lots of games where this fails. works mostly for RPGs, adventure and similar. 19:34:19 I guess that is where it is most needed 19:34:50 In addition to audio, imx also needs a block-JPEG to perform lossless transformations on JPEG file by keeping the blocks compressed 19:35:10 alise: I have also written a hint system called IFHINT 19:35:30 AnMaster: Where would it fail? 19:35:31 (I do not know how it compares with UHS) 19:35:38 alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist. 19:35:55 alise, well open ended strategy games 19:36:00 pretty useless for that I guess 19:36:06 Yeah. 19:36:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:36:17 alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist. 19:36:19 alise, this long. 19:36:32 "I have completed the Seven Trials, killed Morgggot, and retrieved the chicken. What do I do now?" 19:36:33 Writing UHS files needs some care in the question-titling business; if they're too explicit, you can deduce too much; if too vague, they'll be difficult to find. 19:36:38 fizzie: Yes. 19:36:45 Phantom_Hoover: Yay! 19:36:53 Now, what were the thoughts? 19:37:03 See /msg. 19:37:18 alise, I was thinking about the kind of game where you could side with either side of a conflict for completely different gameplay, and possibly change in the middle 19:37:42 or even do the "your own side, fight both" style. 19:37:53 AnMaster: There'd be a (One Side) and (Other Side) superheading, then. 19:38:01 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 19:38:11 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:38:38 Right; there's an arbitrary tree of questions/subquestions, and then each hint has an arbitrary list of answers, revealed one by one. 19:39:09 tree? needs to be arbitrary graph for the kind of game I'm thinking about 19:39:34 No, it doesn't: you don't have to traverse the tree in order. 19:39:44 It just needs to be browseable so that you find what you're looking for. 19:39:44 hm 19:40:03 There's a human reading it, after all. 19:40:19 Conifer? I 'ardly knew 'er! 19:40:58 the kind of game I'm thinking about is _exceedingly_ rare, but exists. Most examples that come to mind are user created modules or such to open ended RPG game engines. Major companies seems to hate truly open ended RPGs. Probably because it is a lot more work. 19:41:43 That being said, the format probably does work best for regular linear-ish (or at least fixed-content do-it-in-the-order-you-like) adventure games. 19:41:44 And because players end up feeling lost. 19:42:37 Arguably, almost all MMORPGs fit that, they're just also "MMO" 19:43:04 alise, I actually love the freedom of this kind of open ended gameplay. Especially if the game has D&D style alignment. If you play chaotic neutral in a rail roaded RPG you never really get the chance for being truly CN. 19:43:29 less of a problem for lawful of course. 19:43:37 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 19:43:37 AnMaster: Incidentally, Myst's DS port added a whole new age (Rime) to the plot. (I don't remember how it tied in to the Myst plot; ISTR it wasn't just "one more red/blue page to find" thing.) 19:44:03 hm 19:44:07 DS port 19:44:12 interesting 19:44:14 Nintendo DS, that is. 19:44:21 yes I gathered that 19:44:39 In other ways it was a pretty sucky port; bugs and such. 19:44:52 But you could write (with the stylus) in a notebook, that was a nice touch. 19:44:52 ah 19:44:59 (Unfortunately the notebook only had one page.) 19:45:04 gah 19:45:20 It's a pretty resource-limited system, and bitmaps take a lot of space. 19:45:53 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:45:55 From a review: "The Nintendo DS has the game at its worst: a poorly compressed, sometimes glitchy, game that relies entirely on visuals that are too hard to see for progression." 19:46:03 (The reviewer is a Myst-hater, though.) 19:46:22 how can anyone hate myst!? 19:46:41 Oh, lots of people hate it. 19:46:54 on what grounds? 19:47:05 It's very, very dull. 19:47:09 eh 19:47:10 And the puzzles are on the ... inexplicable side. 19:47:12 I disagree 19:47:13 When there /are/ any puzzles. 19:47:24 there are puzzles everywhere in myst! 19:47:30 When you're not walking. 19:47:31 Endlessly. 19:47:47 People do find it boring, yes. 19:48:33 well, I hate the FPS genre due to being too fast... so I guess there is a pattern here... 19:48:49 s/due to/for/ 19:48:56 And there's the "zip mode" (at least in the Windows port) to ease a bit on the clickery needed in walking, if you're already been somewhere and want to revisit it. 19:49:08 fizzie, that's in the mac one too 19:49:16 and yes that is quite nice 19:50:22 myst on mac at least was developed in hypercard I think... 19:50:30 Yes. 19:50:39 not sure if that applies to the windows port 19:52:29 One problem in the DS port is that since there's no cursor, poking at random points might activate interactive things, but they might as well cause you to move somewhere; you'd know from the cursor shape. 19:53:03 indeed 19:53:04 And since they shrunk everything to the DS's 256x192 pixel resolution, some of the things you need to poke with a stick are pretty tiny. 19:53:25 fizzie, doesn't it have two screens? 19:53:30 or is that some other one? 19:53:38 Only one of them is a touchscreen. 19:53:42 hm 19:54:03 It's not a touchscreen, really. 19:54:06 More a stylusscreen. 19:54:13 Okay, but pokeable anyway. 19:54:14 *styluscreen 19:54:15 Often there's main graphics in the upper screen, and then some sort of UI in the bottom. 19:54:27 pokeable screen, awesome name 19:54:42 "Pokescreen." Or is that too pokemon? (Or too porn?) 19:54:54 I don't get how it could be porn... 19:54:56 but meh 19:55:06 but yeah too pokemon definitely 19:55:12 It's a Finnish colloquialism for porn; it probably doesn't translate. 19:55:26 What, pokes? Or pokescreen? 19:55:32 or pokemon? 19:55:43 Just "poke". Not too common, but recognizable anyway. 19:57:04 The FF3 port, IIRC, puts the 3D view on top, and a map on the styluscreen; you can poke at the corners of the screen to move in that direction. The equip/item/etc. menu opens over the map, as do the battle menus (and other battle stats). 19:57:41 FF3 being? 19:57:46 Final Fantasy 3. 19:57:49 ah 19:58:22 Of Myst DS: "Even if you wanted to simply enjoy Myst's scenery, the grainy compression has shattered the beauty of the artistic design. What you see is a sad, freckled shell of the original game. The audio from the original game fares only slightly better: Hissing, scratching, and popping have turned CD-quality sound effects, dialogue, and gorgeous, ethereal music into a ham-radio affair." 19:58:45 ouch 19:59:04 The DS' audio is awful. 19:59:10 *DS's 19:59:32 myst is best enjoyed with a peforma cd drive for the seeking noise. It had a very peculiar seeking noise. Not heard on modern computers 19:59:44 but I very strongly associates myst with that sound 19:59:45 Here's a screenshot: http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2008/133/939943_20080513_screen003.jpg -- that's the full-size image, 256 pixels wide; just zoom it in the browser to approximate how you'd probably hold the DS closer than the monitor. 20:00:07 fizzie, a map? that's ruining point of the whole thing 20:00:17 and those icons? wtf 20:00:22 It's a static map, though; it doesn't tell you where you are. 20:00:27 still 20:00:33 AnMaster: Inventory, presumably. Maybe? 20:00:44 You can only carry one thing in Myst. :p 20:00:54 fizzie, on that specific world part of the challenge was figuring out the other islands played any sort of part in the story 20:00:54 The third one is the scribble-notepad. 20:01:14 AnMaster: Nhm, well, I guess. They were pretty visible from the screens, though. 20:01:26 AnMaster: And the map doesn't show how you've rotated the bridge, so it doesn't help in that. 20:01:36 yes, but there is scenery which is just scenery in many places 20:01:42 fizzie, hah 20:01:56 don't spoil it for alise ! 20:02:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Myst_opening.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Realmyst_screen.png 20:02:39 ugh at the latter. Sure some stuff is better 20:02:54 but why couldn't they keep the parts of better detail in the original 20:02:56 The first one is a zoom thing, with which you can zoom what's shown in the bottom screen for easier viewing, but it just stretches the bitmap, there's no higher-resolution version stored anywhere. 20:02:59 So does Myst run in ScummVM or anything? 20:03:15 look at the part of the boat, some rigging or something sticking out 20:03:22 It runs in Wine. 20:03:24 where the bumps are real bumps in the original 20:03:25 Julian Assange should get out of the country, quickly. 20:03:28 fizzie: Blergh. 20:03:29 and in the new one... just texture 20:03:38 alise, which country and why? 20:03:41 myst was probably made in shockwave or something like that 20:03:49 olsner, hypercard on mac 20:03:52 well that was the original 20:03:59 no idea what they used for PC 20:04:30 AnMaster: The Pentagon are out to get him. 20:04:41 isn't he in hiding already? 20:04:46 but yeah, should go to iceland 20:05:16 http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leakhttp://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak -- ok, ok, don't trust everything you read online, but i don't think The Daily Beast is known to be terribly inaccurate 20:05:30 alise, 404 20:05:39 Uh, repeated link. 20:05:39 http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak 20:05:48 alise, ah, I thought it was a bit on the long side 20:05:48 AnMaster: RealMyst had to run in real-time on whatever hardware there was in 2000, so they probably didn't have the polygons to spare to get all the details from the originals -- which were offline-rendered -- in. 20:05:49 [[“We’d like to know where he is; we’d like his cooperation in this,” one U.S. official said of Assange.]] 20:05:58 Of course when he gets to court he's fucked. No chance of a nice ruling there. 20:06:07 fizzie, ah true 20:06:53 I don't think killing off Assange would stop any such leak. They most likely have the files spread and back up people to publish it 20:07:14 AnMaster: "While the new interactivity of the game was praised, realMyst ran extremely slowly on most computers of the time." Heh, maybe they also didn't try very hard. 20:07:28 realMyst: Interactive 3D Edition was a remake of Myst released in November 2000 for Windows PCs, and in January 2002 for Mac. Unlike Myst and the Masterpiece Edition, realMyst featured free-roaming, real-time 3D graphics instead of pre-rendered stills.[50] Weather effects like thunderstorms, sunsets, and sunrises were added to the Ages, and minor additions were made to keep the game in sync with the story of the Myst novels and sequels. The game also adde 20:07:28 d a new Age called Rime, which is featured in an extended ending. 20:07:33 So realMyst added Rime, not the DS version. 20:07:43 fizzie, hm. That grassy area on the side is nicer in realmyst IMO 20:07:45 but that is all 20:07:46 Yes, it's the same Rime. 20:08:14 I'd like to know how the iPhone version is. 20:08:32 * alise downloads insurance.aes256, 1.4 GB. 20:08:35 "Williams, Bryn (2009-05-04). "Massive Myst Clogs Up iPhone". GameSpy. http://www.gamespy.com/articles/979/979141p1.html. Retrieved 2009-05-04." Sounds good. 20:09:05 A 700+-megabyte download is apparently considered "big" for an iPhone app. 20:09:12 fizzie: Of course it is XD 20:09:17 You download that over WiFi. 20:09:33 You also need 1.5 gigs free during the installation; a copy is involved. Heh-eh. 20:09:53 alise, "Assange appeared via Skype from Australia instead, saying lawyers recommended he not return to the United States.", if that is true I doubt he is in US 20:10:21 There's "quick access to hint guide" in the iMyst (no, they're not calling it that) too. 20:11:16 alise, also that link is old 20:11:25 (And it seems they've shrunk it down, the current iOS 4 compatible version is only 533 MB. I might even invest the $5 if I had an iDevice.) 20:11:27 from what I can tell it is before the afghan war diary stuff 20:12:20 AnMaster: Well, it can only inflame. 20:12:39 Anyway, I presume this insurance file is all the /rest/ of the documents the White House have begged him not to release about this stuff, encrypted with AES-256. 20:12:53 Presumably, he will post the key if he feels threatened by the govt. 20:13:01 Length: 309809152 (295M) [application/octet-stream] 20:13:05 You said >1GB, Wikileaks. 20:13:07 You LIED. 20:13:46 alise, what? where? 20:14:10 http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Afghan_War_Diary,_2004-2010 20:14:15 The silently added insurance.aes256. 20:14:21 hm 20:14:36 god, wikileaks is slow atm 20:15:14 The SHA-1 is wrong. 20:15:16 Why is it truncated. 20:15:18 *truncated... 20:15:32 how strange 20:15:41 Fucking wget. 20:15:43 Firefox is doing it alright. 20:15:55 um 20:16:27 alise, considering how slow the download page was to load, I very much suspect that overloaded server might be the cause. 20:17:36 DAMMIT 20:17:45 WHY DID I HAVE TO MAKE THIS SO CRASHPROOF 20:17:49 Sgeo, ??? 20:18:10 that deserves some explanation 20:18:13 I have the code that starts the thing in a try, some stuff in a catch, and the whole thing in a while(true) 20:18:18 I now want to kill it 20:18:25 So I could run it on a different host 20:18:29 kill -9 pid-goes-here 20:18:43 AnMaster, it's not running on a computer I have access to 20:18:50 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Memling_Vanity_and_Salvation.jpg (NSFW, WTF) 20:19:15 The self-restarts in a sense on exceptions aren't perfect, due to poor code design 20:19:16 alise, seen that before. Hisotorical context. 20:19:19 forgot details 20:19:24 check image page for "used in" 20:19:27 "This triptych contrasts earthly beauty and luxury with the prospect of death and hell." 20:19:29 that should help 20:19:30 It's still pretty WTF. 20:19:57 Meanwhile, someone has snipped out just the bit with nakedness: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Hans_Memling_Vanit%C3%A9_ca_1490.jpg XD 20:22:22 alise, google news search on wikileaks insurance aes256: "all 477 news articles »" 20:22:28 that's quite a bit of coverage 20:22:33 assuming all are related 20:22:36 probably not 20:22:40 mostly just wikileaks, I bet 20:22:58 probably 20:24:31 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why Wikileaks didn't manually look for informant's names and only release documents known for certain not to contain them? 20:25:47 Did they release any with informant's names? 20:26:06 alise, you know, no one could tell if it was just random data to scare with 20:26:10 that file I mean 20:26:36 alise, yes iirc it turned out they did so 20:42:23 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:43:35 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:49:50 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:50:33 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:58:22 AnMaster: what kernel do i select in ubuntu 7.04 install? 20:58:28 linux-generic froze the install last time i tried 20:58:32 do I choose the specific name? 20:58:37 sorry, *linux-kernel I think. maybe not 21:00:42 alise, hm... 21:00:46 alise, which file system? 21:01:00 ???? 21:01:01 alise, it froze for me for about 20 minutes with jfs and about 10 with ext3 21:01:04 What are commands in TeX to calculate the minimum width of a paragraph (with no hyphenation)? 21:01:10 AnMaster: O_O what?! 21:01:12 why would it freeze that much 21:01:18 alise, I have no idea 21:01:24 Any way to rectify it? 21:01:29 alise, logs showed the vm was trying to catch up time drift 21:01:41 Also, ext3 is what it does when you just let it go with the whole disk, right? 21:01:43 and failed 21:01:43 Yeah, it is. 21:01:46 AnMaster: Huh. So it eventually resolved? 21:01:59 alise, well with ext3 it did. It did take an awful lot of time though 21:02:04 with jfs I gave up after 20 minutes 21:02:27 alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not 21:02:35 anyway linux-generic just maps to one of the other ones 21:02:38 last version or such 21:02:50 Do you know about commands in TeX? 21:03:30 zzo38, clarify that question please What exactly do you mean 21:03:52 or is "commands" some package? 21:04:00 AnMaster: pure TeX. 21:04:12 hm no idea. I use LaTeX 21:04:18 alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not <-- is this likely to speed it up? 21:04:30 he has no idea 21:04:32 alise, no clue. 21:04:41 *clue 21:04:42 alise, it might 21:04:59 alise, I mean, theoretically it should perhaps, no need to update atime field 21:05:03 could hardly slow it down 21:05:09 unless there was some bug 21:05:12 Yeah, but I mean, the huge lag. 21:05:15 Could that be related? 21:05:21 I guess not. 21:05:26 AnMaster: I mean Plain TeX. I want to calculate the minimum possible width of a box that a paragraph will fit into with no hyphenation or overfull boxes. 21:05:29 Because it's time drift instead. 21:05:29 alise, and since iirc noatime is not default and you hit that lag too. That is assuming you did defaults 21:05:38 No? 21:05:47 And no overlapping text. 21:05:47 alise, I'm not sure if the time drift is actually causing the slow down or just side effect 21:06:15 alise, it might very well be caused by the VM hogging it's CPU to 100% in debconf during that time 21:06:21 alise, it turns out top installed before kernel 21:06:29 so I could chroot into the install and run top 21:06:31 :D 21:06:57 alise, just go to alt-f2, oh and it reports current status on alt-f4 or such 21:07:00 Oh, so it's responsive? 21:07:03 as in, apt-get output 21:07:05 Which kernel did you pick? 21:07:13 alise, default one 21:07:26 alise, but it doesn't matter really since they are just generic aliases of each other 21:07:28 Here is the command to use if you want to test if a GNU/Linux system is running too slow: time seq 1 1000000 21:07:35 alise, blame expert install for showing the option at all probably 21:07:42 zzo38: Why? 21:07:48 AnMaster: Yeah. 21:08:01 alise, need it for the shadow option however 21:08:01 zzo38: For one, that's IO-bound. Heavily. You want >/dev/null. 21:08:05 For two, there are many implementations of seq. 21:08:08 For three, why?! 21:08:12 alise, modifying that after the fact turned out to be quite a mess. 21:08:37 alise: That is meaning in case you want to count multiple things at once including I/O and things. 21:08:43 enough that I did a reinstall 21:09:08 AnMaster: Incidentally, using QEMU to emulate an x86-64 machine is a bitch. 21:09:19 oh? 21:09:24 AnMaster: This is because although I have a 64-bit processor, it does not support virtualisation, so VirtualBox can't do 64-bit on it. 21:09:25 Thus slowness. 21:09:30 Well, it isn't /that/ slow 21:09:32 *slow. 21:09:35 But still, you know, could be a bit faster. 21:09:42 My processor does that too... 21:09:57 alise, anyway, as far as I can tell it stalls (or seems to?) in generating the initrd or possibly depmod. This is based on output on alt-f4 21:10:30 alise, I don't know if you drink coffee, but this is the kind of place where guides would suggest you go make a cup of it to pass the time :P 21:10:40 Usually it suggests tea. 21:10:43 Well, in the good manuals. 21:10:52 The command "time seq 1 1000000" doesn't test everything and also won't do only one thing for testing, but it is good as a simple way to test multiple things at once 21:10:54 hm that "trope" of manuals seems mostly gone nowdays 21:11:07 alise, I can't remember it being tea in any case I read about 21:11:09 There doesn't seem to be a coffee machine in the kitchen and I'm not about to drink instant coffee, so I don't drink coffee much. That's probably a good thing. 21:11:18 alise, indeed 21:11:20 AnMaster: I've never seen coffee. Maybe I read better manuals than you. :P 21:11:28 I don't drink coffee 21:11:46 alise, or British manuals rather than American ones. That could be a significant factor 21:11:57 I don't use much British software, as far as I know. 21:12:12 Swedish ones would probably suggest coffee. It is by far more common than tea here 21:12:20 Or maybe localised manuals. Who knows. I don't think they'd localise that; only open-sourcey and other thrifty projects have it, and those don't tend to get localised across dialects of English. 21:12:25 Ah, well, yes, I'm talking English ere. 21:12:42 alise, well I'm not sure which language I read it in 21:12:48 probably both English and Swedish 21:13:15 human memory is not perfect 21:14:45 alise, wait, that 10 minutes was for virtualbox with hardware virt 21:14:56 qemu is in my experience slower... 21:15:10 how much varies 21:15:13 and that was with kvm 21:15:25 without kvm... you might have to wait a bit more than 10 minutes 21:15:33 alise, hopefully not though 21:16:00 Does KVM work if your processor doesn't do that virtualisin' thang? 21:16:05 alise, no 21:16:08 or 21:16:10 not afaik 21:16:11 Then no luckz. 21:16:23 alise, indeed. Also how fast cpu? 21:16:32 what was that 21:16:36 strange sound 21:16:53 1.33 GHz or something; ultra low voltage. But don't be fooled; it runs a ton of Firefox and other windows very snappily and quickly on bloated old Ubuntu. 21:16:56 like... lots of small muffled explosions after each other 21:17:00 So it's no slowpoke. It /is/ Core 2 Duo, after all. 21:17:15 like 5-10 / second, went on for maybe 4 or 5 seconds 21:17:16 wtf 21:17:19 from outside 21:17:24 o_O 21:17:34 alise, my cpu is Core 2 Duo @ 2.26 GHz btw 21:18:09 alise, looking at top and virtualbox's harddrive icon it seemed that whatever thing it stalled at was CPU bound, not IO bound 21:18:28 Oh well. I can wait for indefinite amounts of time as long as I know it's not frozen. 21:18:36 It froze at 8x% -- is this your experience too? 21:18:43 8x%? 21:18:51 it was when installing kernel I know 21:19:13 but yes it froze a short while at 8x% I think, and then the 10 minute freeze at 92% or such 21:19:19 the first one was like about a minute or so 21:19:22 Ah. It froze for a few minutes at 8x% for me. 21:19:25 Hmm. 21:19:27 Oh well. 21:19:37 alise, slower cpu, no hw virt. What can you expect? 21:19:40 How can you calculate the shortest width of hbox that a paragraph will fit into with no overfills, hyphenation, or overlapped text? 21:19:46 alise, don't you have one with hw virt? 21:20:03 I thought you did 21:20:33 alise, anyway I'm really curious as to what debconf was doing, since it was it that was using 99% CPU during the second stall at least 21:20:33 Yes; an AMD box and an iMac. 21:20:38 But, you know, I like this little box. It's dinky! 21:20:43 That's the actual hostname. 21:20:50 alise, what was the screen res? 21:21:02 1366x768; which, on a 13" screen, gives it a lovely dpi. 21:21:08 Enough to have a few windows on the same screen. 21:21:42 alise, opengenera uses a 800x600 window (do not resize, I haven't tried, but the snap4 README said that if you do that, BAD things will happen). And a bitmapped font that is kind of hard to read on my thinkpad at times. 21:22:00 alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean 21:22:14 AnMaster: Indeed, the screen is so high-quality and high-dpi that /slight-hinted RGB subpixel rendering by (patent-patched) freetype/ actually *has no noticeable subpixels*. 21:22:20 Literally. Even if you lean your head in and strain to see. 21:22:29 It looks even better than OS X's subpixel rendering. 21:22:32 alise, yeah yeah, but opengenera can only use bitmapped fonts 21:22:38 so those will do you no good here 21:22:38 The actual font rendering isn't up to snuff, of course, but the subpixel... 21:22:41 AnMaster: 800x600 is fine. 21:22:46 alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean 21:22:46 QEMU 21:22:49 and why would I need to? 21:22:50 oh right 21:22:51 no more sleepin' 21:23:01 VirtualBox can save state too IIRC. 21:23:02 alise, you got discharged? 21:23:04 err 21:23:08 qemu you mean 21:23:15 No, I meant VirtualBox. 21:23:16 Not discharged. 21:23:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:23:18 Just daypatient. 21:23:25 alise, oh wait 21:23:32 I write vmware, and meant virtualbox 21:23:35 how funny 21:23:36 -_- 21:23:41 but yes vmware can too 21:23:56 alise, can qemu though? 21:24:27 alise, if you show up sleep deprived though... things might start looking bad for you again 21:24:31 if you see what I mean 21:24:42 I'm good at hiding it. 21:24:47 Besides, I look tired on Mondays anyway. 21:24:58 AnMaster: But no, I'm on the "fast track" to being discharged in September. 21:25:01 Not to peace of course ... 21:25:02 okay. I know I personally fail at hiding lack of sleep 21:25:04 Hello ais523! 21:25:09 hi alise 21:25:14 sure I can stay awake, unless at home... but even so 21:25:18 not well hidden 21:25:34 and yes hi ais523 21:25:51 ais523, did you reach any clarity in that esr/ick/knuth issue? 21:25:54 Well, I can survive on five hours of sleep and after a bit of yawning I'm okay after noon. 21:25:59 Then by evening I crash. 21:26:00 AnMaster: it's still happening 21:26:17 ais523, I haven't heard anything except the initial statement 21:26:22 anything new since then? 21:26:31 just technical details 21:26:42 ais523, no reason why? 21:27:19 this is INTERCAL, who needs reasons? 21:27:27 but we're trying to compile a huge repo of all known C-INTERCAL history 21:27:35 wow 21:27:46 ais523, like every revision and version? 21:27:48 of ick? 21:27:51 yes 21:27:53 or all known c-intercal code? 21:28:00 well, it wasn't versioned particularly well in the past 21:28:03 ais523, don't forget my port to MPW 21:28:05 so the older history is a bit flaky 21:28:22 ais523, probably only I have the foggiest idea how to compile that though 21:28:31 if you have more history, like the MPW port, you could reply to the a.kl 21:28:33 *a.l.i post 21:28:46 ais523, I only have read only access to a.l.i 21:28:56 ais523, or usenet at all rather 21:29:01 alise: I'd like to revisit my statements re Myst "it works in Wine"; ScummVM does have a "WIP" version of the Mohawk engine used by Myst/windows (as well as Riven and the Masterpiece Edition redo), and it's even in the SVN repo and does something; presumably not very playable yet, but last commit three weeks ago so it's not quite dead either; http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Myst 21:29:04 MPW :) 21:29:08 (This thing didn't exist, last I looked at it.) 21:29:10 anyone can use Google Groups 21:29:13 ais523, anyway, you got the patch I think? I can link you to it otherwise 21:29:19 I don't think I have it 21:29:24 ais523: AnMaster can't use Google Groups, they'll steal his inner goodness! 21:29:38 well, even I'm a bit paranoid about it, to the extent of deleting cookies afterwards 21:29:39 fizzie: ScummVM is rapidly becoming AnyDamnThingVM! 21:29:51 I have Google filtered more tightly than pretty much any other website 21:30:05 I was recently asked to 21:30:05 prepare a new INTERCAL release by no less a personage than Donald 21:30:05 Knuth, who wants to feature an INTERCAL program in his next book. 21:30:05 ais523, see the files starting at ick on this url http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ 21:30:06 So that's why. 21:30:12 ais523, see logs for url 21:30:16 that is all I can give 21:30:18 I knwo 21:30:19 ais523: tell Knuth that he should clearly use /your/ C-INTERCAL >:D 21:30:21 *know 21:30:27 alise: hey, it's backwards-compatible 21:30:31 Knuth cannot stoop so low to use esr software! 21:30:47 and the current plan is to merge the ais and esr branches 21:30:48 ais523, however there is still that issue with ick generating C89 code that MPW doesn't like 21:30:51 The new release will probably spew neoconservative propaganda on startup. >:) 21:30:53 ais523: What, forever? 21:30:55 I hope not. 21:30:57 ais523, something I never got around to trying to work around 21:31:05 ais523, forgot exactly what it didn't like too 21:31:17 AnMaster: qemu does have VM snapshots, yes. 21:31:40 ais523, esr made other changes? 21:31:43 it wasn't dead? 21:31:54 only a few, it seems 21:32:08 and none are particularly objectionable or controverisal 21:32:15 not nearly as many as I did, anyway 21:32:20 ais523, oh and another issue... I think I versioned it in bzr, I found darcs a bit annoying at that point. 21:32:21 hm 21:32:44 ais523, about binaries. Do you know about the two forks classic MacOS used to have? 21:33:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:53 my point is that while I could compile it for you, there is no way I could send it in a format that could be read anywhere except on classic mac OS. Either *.sit.hqx or *.sit.bin or .img.hqx or .img.bin 21:33:58 the latter is a disk image 21:34:04 created by disc copy for classic mac os 21:34:09 os x might be able to read it 21:34:11 don't know 21:34:17 it isn't an os x disk image however 21:34:26 probably the sources are enough 21:34:32 well then, see that url 21:34:36 yep, noted 21:34:40 ais523, hope the patch applies cleanly and such 21:34:46 probably doesn't against last version 21:35:01 ais523, and note: the patch is not ASCII or ISO-* 21:35:09 ais523, it is MacRoman in part, this can not be avoided 21:35:18 because MPW makefiles makes use of those symbols 21:35:24 won't work without them 21:35:28 yep 21:35:34 it replaces stuff like : in normal makefiles and such 21:36:11 ais523, oh and I'm not sure if that might change line ending in some other file. Probably best to be very careful with what you apply to your own ick from that. The fixes for generating paths should work though 21:36:29 there is a lengthy comment there about why exactly and so on 21:36:41 oh, I'd have to be utterly crazy to backport fixes intended to run on MacOS Classic 21:36:43 and then there were some pepet.c changes since system() won't work 21:37:00 clearly the optimal alternative would be to instead patch autoconf to handle that operating system 21:37:02 ais523, no, I meant if you want to apply to your own branch 21:37:06 that is all 21:37:42 ais523, the fix to generating paths and some of the stuff in perpet.c, plus some fixes to add some extra checks to configure.ac (unless I misremember) should all be fine 21:37:49 the changes you should be wary about are outside the src dir 21:38:11 What character replaces : again? 21:38:25 alise, eh, don't remember and doubt I could copy it anyway 21:38:42 You could recreate it with Unicode. Was it that S section symbol? 21:38:57 alise, well let me open the file 21:39:04 and change encoding 21:39:14 since *nix editor goes spare over this patch 21:39:36 -#line 238 "lexer.l" 21:39:37 +#line 248 "lexer.l" 21:39:37 hm 21:39:42 thousands of lines like that 21:39:48 for the pre-generated files 21:39:53 yes macs need them 21:40:25 ais523, that was another issue yeah. macs mangle \r and \n in a way similar to windows. The reverse of it that is 21:40:36 \r maps to \n and \n maps to \r 21:40:38 I know all about classic mac line endings 21:40:39 in C 21:40:46 ais523, yes but how stdio mangled I meant 21:41:04 if anyone asks me why people sometimes use \n and sometimes use code to generate a particular line ending 21:41:21 I tell them that it's to work around a bug on classic Mac OS, and as nobody uses that any more they can just use \n safely 21:41:42 XD 21:41:46 AnMaster: Has some sort of conversion happened to http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick_classic_macppc.diff or is it the web server or what? If I wget/curl it, the file has UTF-8 0xfffd (Unicode "replacement character") in those places you'd expect uncommon characters. 21:41:51 err, kate doesn't have macroman 21:42:03 fizzie, um, it shouldn't 21:42:06 that's very bad 21:42:14 fizzie, must be broken diff 21:42:22 Or crappy webserver. 21:42:35 alise, doubt it, it servers it as application/octet-stream 21:44:21 fizzie, ais523, okay, working on fixing up a new diff 21:44:30 not using hg diff this time, it seems at fault 21:44:54 are you going to replace the old one? 21:45:23 ais523, yes, I'm going to try to diff against exported r1 (clean import) and exported last revision 21:45:28 with diff 21:45:39 if that doesn't work I'll just upload both as tarballs or something 21:47:54 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:48:38 huh... 21:51:17 Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct. 21:51:37 which is the last version 21:52:10 ais523, how urgent is this? I think it may take a few hours for me to figure out which dir is the current. since the sources on the mac image doesn't perfectly match the last source control version 21:52:15 not really urgent 21:52:41 ais523, should numerals.c be part of libick.a? 21:52:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:52:46 err 21:52:48 .o not .c 21:52:57 o i c 21:53:01 yes IIRC 21:53:07 *blink* 21:53:14 then this difference makes no sense 21:53:21 -!- nooga has joined. 21:53:47 and it's an august day! 21:54:31 * AnMaster sets mmap limit to 0 and starts sheepshaver 21:59:13 these logs are too long. again. 21:59:14 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 21:59:49 it is starting to make a tiny bit more sense now 22:00:17 AnMaster: that clearly means you are finally going insane 22:00:50 oerjan, c-intercal port to classic mac os making sense, yes probably 22:01:00 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:01:10 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 22:09:15 ais523, okay I made sense of the changes to the source. I will actually try to clean this up into several patches. Some of which should be applied to your own branch really since they are somewhat generic in nature 22:12:10 Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct. 22:12:14 I think partial differential is backspace 22:12:20 since \{foo}\ is a var in the shell 22:12:21 or rather 22:12:25 ∂{foo}∂ 22:12:43 hm 22:16:36 It's used as a line-continuation character there, anyway. 22:17:30 I mean I've seen it literally where I'd expect a backspace, so I confirm your sources are correct. 22:18:04 M'k. 22:18:19 K'm. 22:18:26 Well, it's possible to just look at https://gforge.uni.lu/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/*checkout*/tags/revision-1.0/expat-2.0.1/lib/Makefile.MPW?revision=271&root=hpc-ga-bench&pathrev=272 as an example, and set browser's character encoding to macroman. 22:18:54 I don't know what's up with the "{•foo•}" bits though. 22:19:45 Or the local sed-alike invocation: StreamEdit -d e "/•('XMLPARSEAPI('≈') ')«0,1»'XML_'([A-Za-z0-9_]+)®1'('/ Print 'XML_' ®1" "{HdrDir}expat.h" > {Targ} 22:29:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:30:47 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:33:17 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:39:35 ais523, see http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick-mac-patches.tar.gz 22:39:40 ais523, see that url in log 22:39:54 that tarball contains a directory of patches 22:39:59 each one fixing a small thing 22:40:05 should make it easier to apply 22:40:17 that is against ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz as far as I know 22:40:32 ais523, oh and configure will need to be regenerated afterwards 22:40:44 ais523, it only includes diff to configure.ac, not to configure itself 22:41:05 Mac Roman, Macro Man. 22:41:15 alise, yes I checked the file in the tar ball 22:41:24 it contains strange stuff that is not 0xfffd 22:41:28 that much I know 22:41:30 I wasn't saying anything about you. 22:44:24 Meanwhile, for no reason, a classic PFSC: http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/comics/00000028.gif 22:44:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:50 -!- augur has joined. 22:47:13 ais523, *prod* 22:47:23 yes, I've seen it 22:47:39 ais523, btw I get why you want to build all historic ick versions. But what has knuth got to do with it? 22:47:59 he seems to want a new version 22:48:05 ais523, hum 22:48:14 He wants esr to make a new release, because he is including a C-INTERCAL program in his next book. 22:48:15 ais523, why all historic then 22:48:22 AnMaster: to merge all branches into one 22:48:22 because 22:48:31 and yes, easier to merge branches if you know what they are 22:48:34 alise, would be lovely, but is improbable 22:48:40 AnMaster: that's what Knuth wants. 22:48:44 AnMaster: esr and ais523 are participating. there is nobody else. 22:48:47 so it is happening 22:48:50 okay 22:48:57 besides, you can't disappoint knuth 22:48:58 include in TAOCP? 22:49:02 or some other book? 22:49:03 upsetting knuth is like ... Basically, just kill yourself. 22:49:05 AnMaster: i doubt TAOCP 22:49:08 probably some other book. 22:49:10 *phew* 22:49:13 right 22:49:17 Although ... that would be awesome. 22:49:31 yes but unlikely since it isn't written in MMIX 22:49:34 "Here we present rinky-dink sort in INTERCAL, a popular programming language." 22:49:40 XD 22:49:53 "We can contrast the structure with the MMIX version, as they both have very different control structures. However, there are some similarities." 22:49:55 wtf is rinky-dinky sort btw? 22:50:05 Knuth's new O(1) sorting algorithm over any list. 22:50:06 it sounds like it would only be efficient in INTERCAL, whatever it is 22:50:15 That's why it's important to get a new release. 22:50:21 har har 22:50:25 it's rare for INTERCAL to be more efficient than other languages, except in lines of code 22:50:29 because it's compiled via other languages 22:50:53 ais523, anyway, at least one of the patches in that tarball fixes a code gen error that makes generated code sometimes not valid C89 22:51:07 -!- ais523 has left (?). 22:51:26 : ais523, basically without 04_output_valid_c89.patch you can sometimes get zero length static arrays in the generated output 22:51:33 He doesn't logread. 22:51:38 right 22:51:40 Try MemoServ. 22:51:45 hm 22:51:49 I'll mention it next time 22:53:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:53:53 oh and btw, not all of that can be compiled in sheepshaver. it is too buggy. I remember some file crashing sheepshaver. Had to compile it on my old ibook then copy the object file over 22:54:38 Finally I got the Icoruma->TeX to work. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi 22:55:23 bye everybody. 22:55:25 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 22:55:50 See? 22:57:06 Now is the time you ar expected to complain about the formatting being no good ... 22:57:40 zzo38, why dvi? 22:57:48 pdftex produces better results 22:57:53 and pdf is nodways an open format 22:57:59 Nodways. 22:58:15 AnMaster: it won't be better unless he uses lmodern 22:58:21 and i don't think there's plain tex support for lmodern. 22:58:38 I can make it produce PDF as well, if you want. 22:58:39 dvi2ps -> dvi2pdf actually produces worse results than pdflatex 22:58:50 or pdftex 22:58:55 if you are doing plain tex 22:59:10 zzo38, my point is, avoid going over dvi 22:59:33 OK I have now both DVI and PDF. 22:59:42 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.pdf 22:59:57 zzo38, with hyperref (latex only? I have no idea) you can get clickable links for the TOC in the pdf and so on 23:00:06 hyperref is latex only 23:00:12 okay 23:00:13 like everything else 23:00:23 zzo38, why are you using plain tex instead of latex? 23:00:29 he considered latex too complex 23:00:33 and couldn't get tables working properly. 23:00:45 don't knock plain tex/dvi too hard though, Knuth still writes everything in it :-D 23:00:51 AnMaster: Because Plain TeX works better, and I understand it. 23:00:55 although he has impeccable typographical taste 23:01:09 zzo38, one minor point, on page 9 there is a table, the table is left aligned while the "Table 2-1" caption is centered 23:01:19 zzo38, would probably look better if both were the same 23:01:28 I would go for both centered in a float 23:01:29 both should be centred 23:01:32 indeed 23:01:38 centred, not centered :P 23:01:54 alise, you're no longer in the ()? 23:01:59 Sgeo: the ()? 23:02:08 what? 23:02:14 AnMaster,alise: Yes I do believe you. I just haven't completed it yet, but the part that works it now works. I will fix these things 23:02:17 Sorry, me being silly obfuscating what I mean. 23:02:22 the unit 23:02:59 (However, I believe there is a way of doing hyperlinks with Plain TeX, since I have seen CWEB printouts that use it (and CWEB uses Plain TeX) 23:03:06 no hyphenation? 23:03:18 You might have to use \special or whatever, though 23:03:25 ah there is one 23:03:37 was worried something was broken at first 23:03:39 but seems fine 23:03:48 Some authors do not like hyphenation 23:04:08 I turned off hyphenation in tables, for one thing, otherwise I would keep getting overfull hboxes 23:04:10 well, tex is quite good at avoiding it when possible 23:04:11 * Sgeo pokes alise 23:04:25 i am poke'd 23:04:37 zzo38, well in tables it might make sense. Also overful hboxes is not really an issue unless something actually looks wrong in the result 23:04:38 Sgeo: i'm there - as daypatient, thrice weekly. 23:04:49 That's better than before, at least 23:04:54 hyphenation is a Good Thing 23:06:05 zzo38, quite nice. The only issue I saw was that table not being centred 23:06:17 AnMaster: Yes, and it will be fixed later on. 23:06:18 and that using pdflatex with lmodern would produce better results 23:06:43 I have both PDF and DVI now. But I am not using LaTeX 23:06:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Bye for now). 23:06:55 the font manages to be a bit blurry on my monitor 23:10:23 Gregor, AnMaster, you're good at paging and stuff, right? 23:10:35 I'm good at paging and stuff? 23:11:18 Gregor, on x86-64 can you page to an address that the machine doesn't support? 23:11:18 I guess 'cause you're BORING :P 23:11:41 With more than 40 bits of address, I mean. 23:11:56 I want Wooble to be a jerk to me again so I can whack him with the institution bat. >_> 23:12:30 Wooble? 23:15:20 An Agora player; tends to be an asshole. To everyone. 23:15:31 Gregor, thoughts? 23:15:53 Phantom_Hoover: I do think you can use all 48 bits in virtual addresses; 40 bits is just how many physical address bits there are. 23:16:13 48 bits‽ Not nearly enough! 23:16:14 Doesn't it pretty much say that? "address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual" 23:16:18 I need 64! 23:16:26 Why do you need 64? 23:16:31 Complicated. 23:16:50 Oh, like that Facebook relationship status. 23:16:58 Indeed. 23:17:02 fizzie: i think alise has been encouraging him 23:17:10 Mine is "widowed". 23:17:43 We don't need 64 ... 23:17:47 :P 23:18:41 Oh, this is some sort of SECRET POR-JECT of you folks. Sounds SUSPICIOUS; expect a visit from the COPS, just in case it has to do with 64-BIT DRUGS. 23:19:27 I hear digital drugs are the latest thing: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/digital-drugs/ 23:19:38 fizzie: they're persistent offenders 23:19:54 Oh, those things. 23:20:16 alise: They're gateway drugs to really dangerous sequences of bits. 23:20:23 Heh; available on YouTube. Even if they did work that will utterly destroy any actual binaural qualities in it. 23:20:32 There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly. 23:21:53 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:21:54 alise: the article _starts_ talking about MP3s... 23:22:20 People use MP3 to mean any audio file nowadays. 23:22:42 I wouldn't put it past Wired, let alone a *blog* on wired.com. 23:22:59 People u 23:23:11 (at least here) use "MP3" to refer to portable media players. 23:23:17 "How many songs do you have on your MP3?" 23:23:28 "My MP3 is the red one: it can store more songs than the silver one." 23:24:31 The same people use "web" to mean "a instant messaging conversation performed with the aid of a webcam". As in, "I was in web with so-and-so, and ..." 23:24:44 alise: the wired articles doesn't really seem to be taking this seriously :D 23:24:51 *article 23:25:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 23:26:22 language: driving prescriptists mad since the ancient babylonians 23:26:30 *prescriptivists 23:26:34 *prescriptivists...dammit 23:27:06 * oerjan should have just dropped his own correction and chastised alise for taking the hook 23:27:08 -!- nooga has joined. 23:27:22 oerjan: how ironic 23:27:41 very meta 23:28:09 I never meta very I didn't like. 23:28:27 X 23:28:36 * oerjan isn't sure what his mouth is doing 23:29:16 There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly. <-- ? 23:29:33 why? 23:29:34 Fnord fnord fnord fnord. 23:29:42 okay 23:29:43 AnMaster: because they require lots of crazy pitches and shit to "work" (if they do work at all) 23:29:55 psychoacoustic compression is designed for the sound of music and the like, not precision 23:29:58 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 23:31:06 sounds like the perfect weapon for those evil-AI-in-a-not-quite-perfect-box things 23:31:14 It's not strange that something you're not supposed to consciously notice is messed by a compression method based on keeping only noticeable features of the sound and throwing away all the rest. 23:32:11 Especially the "joint stereo" stuff would probably horribly break all that fluff. Assuming any of it does anything, that is. 23:36:05 Also: who's responsible if a low-bitrate encoding of a drug-soundclip causes some kid to think he's an orange and peel himself with a knife? The codec author? Ratifier of the corresponding standard? These are important questions. 23:36:32 whaaat? 23:36:58 See the wired link for contect. 23:37:13 Text. 23:38:20 (Asleep now.) 23:38:52 fizzie sleepIRCs. 23:38:54 what the fuck 23:39:20 alise, fizzie, after reading the wired link I can only conclude that people from the onion invaded their office 23:39:26 it is that weird 23:46:51 maybe they've been listening to drugs 23:55:30 -!- charlls has joined. 2010-08-02: 00:12:22 alise, so, did the kernel finish installing yet? 00:14:08 well then... night 00:16:21 AnMaster: haven't started yet 00:37:59 alise, couldn't sleep, due to this idea: 00:38:05 md5 quine 00:38:19 possible? 00:38:38 alise, ^ 00:39:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:48:39 night → 00:55:05 AnMaster: hmm 00:55:24 AnMaster: crc32 quines exist i think 00:55:26 or something 00:55:28 so possible 01:01:15 Genteelmen. 01:04:28 Project for the insane: Translate Hamlet to Toki Pona. 01:07:33 It doesn't even have a word for "green"; you have to use "yelo laso" (yellow blue) or something. 01:08:07 Toki Ponans express larger numbers additively by using phrases such as tu wan for three, tu tu for four, and so on.[27] This feature was added to make it impractical to communicate large numbers.[6] 01:11:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:14:22 tu tu mute tu wan 01:14:28 "four many three" = 4*3 01:14:33 I have thwarted you, Kisa! 01:14:46 now to ackermann 01:16:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 01:24:53 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:27:25 Hi CakeProphet 01:27:35 Prophesised any cakes recently? 01:29:44 * Sgeo thought Sapir-Worf was discredited? 01:32:52 Context? 01:32:54 *Sapir-Whorf 01:32:54 -!- charlls has quit (Quit: Saliendo). 01:34:01 Sgeo: 01:34:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona 01:34:33 yes, it is; but otoh, toki pona utilises something a bit weaker than sapir-whorf 01:34:41 i.e. "making it linguistically a bitch to say anything complex or bad" 01:34:48 which is obviously possible 01:36:04 DAMMIT 01:36:09 * alise presses alt+f4 on qemu by mistake 01:39:48 md5 quine <<< if it's any good a hash, it's highly likely that there is a quine, you need 23 ppl for birthday paradox, in the md5 paradox you have 2^128 people and 2^128 days 01:40:08 of course if you meant whether it's possible to *find* one 01:42:48 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:43:50 -!- Leonidas has joined. 01:44:43 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/MD5 01:52:57 quoting uncyclopedia isn't much of an argument, how could you trust it when anyone can just put whatever they want in there 01:54:54 * Sgeo blehs at his dad wanting to buy him a Kindle 01:57:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:57:58 Sgeo: Which you obviously must obey. 01:58:20 Honestly, one of the main things I want is the ability to use it like blank pen and paper 01:58:37 I saw a review suggesting that the handwriting stuff is better for short notes than for that sort of thing 01:58:49 But I guess I'll have to try it in a store [the Sony eReader Touch] 01:59:19 It would mean I'd be far more mathy, imo 02:01:31 irex 02:02:01 Last time we had this discussion, I remember commenting that that's expensive, iirc? 02:02:32 Only outside of US. 02:02:55 It's not exactly cheap in the US either :P 02:03:07 "Oops! Google Chrome could not find shop.ereaderoutfitters.com 02:03:07 " 02:03:19 n/m 02:04:39 Does IREX have a handwriting thingy, so I can do math stuff? 02:04:48 And take notes for class? 02:04:58 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:06:15 "Sorry, the page you requested was not found." 02:06:23 ^^trying to go to the BestBuy link 02:09:14 IREX does handwriting I think 02:09:16 It has a stylus 02:10:39 I'm having trouble finding it 02:10:50 Unless you're referring to iLiad 02:11:18 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:11:23 $4800 02:11:26 erm, $480 02:11:29 Still expensive 02:12:33 Any reasons not to get a Sony eReader Touch? 02:13:52 Maybe I'll get a chance to try it in-person 02:13:54 It's not an irex. 02:14:01 iLiad is the old irex 02:14:03 ask Gregor 02:14:20 http://www.irexreader.com/ 02:16:50 The IREX DR800SG is what I have. 02:16:53 It is not $480 02:17:15 How much is it? 02:17:51 Idonno, I don't know where you can buy it anymore. 02:17:58 It used to be on bestbuy.com, but it seems it's not any more. 02:18:09 -!- MizardX- has joined. 02:20:39 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:21:08 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 02:22:16 Again, is there anything wrong with getting a Sony eReader Touch? 02:22:33 herpes 02:23:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:24:01 -!- augur has joined. 02:28:19 hi augur 02:28:45 Sgeo: 's probably OK. 02:28:45 Idonno 02:29:02 hello, alise, my dear 02:29:15 drop the last two words there :| 02:29:18 Maybe I should make sure the software installs onto my computer successfully 02:29:38 Sgeo: it's not linux :D 02:30:21 Is there a Linux version? Maybe I should use that. My Windows install is rather FUBARed right now 02:30:39 i mean sony reader isn't 02:30:41 irex is linux 02:30:54 hello, alise, 02:31:07 augur: also the comma. 02:31:15 hello alise, 02:31:16 if i said last clause you'd just linguistically correct me pedantically 02:31:26 what? 02:31:40 alise: The Sony Reader doesn't run Linux? That sounds unlikely. 02:31:42 They all do. 02:31:45 oh, yes, well, there was no clause there, so. 02:31:49 It might be less hackable. 02:31:56 augur: precisely 02:32:04 Gregor: Well, yeah, but it's probably not X11. 02:32:06 so yeah 02:32:07 Which is a good bad thing. 02:32:09 hello alise, 02:32:12 hows life 02:32:12 alise: Yesh :P 02:32:19 Erm. 02:32:20 A bad good thing. 02:32:22 I think. 02:32:29 ahh 02:32:31 badgood 02:32:38 the bane of goodbad's existance 02:33:40 GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery! 02:33:56 alise, when will you read Fine Structure? 02:35:03 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:35:24 Sgeo: what's Fine Structure? 02:35:27 when the universe all's out of line and -- "Fucking--! What the fuck i-- I'm not even going to ask, where is the prince, is the prince here? What have you done with the prince?" "Sir, I'm sor-" "No. No fucking sorry. I want to know where the prince is." There was silence for minutes. "... follow me." He was lead into a ch-- what is this that I have found to happen? The things are all whats. 02:35:33 augur: a sci-fi novel by Sam Hughes 02:35:36 ahh 02:35:39 Sgeo: ^ there is your answer 02:35:52 o.O 02:36:02 So, I can feel free to spoil you? 02:36:46 Damn it augur and alise, stop having names that both begin with 'a' and are the same number of characters long >_< 02:37:07 Sgeo: No. 02:39:13 Stuff happens 02:40:19 yes, stuff does >3 02:40:32 Sgeo: gasp 02:45:13 * Sgeo needs to fix IE somehow 02:47:01 * Sgeo wonders if installing IE8 then uninstalling IE8 would fix IE6 02:47:26 But for now, I'll just install IE8 02:48:19 Bleh, installer said it couldn't uninstall the "current version" of IE8 02:48:27 So it will install over it a new, unremovable version 02:48:28 :/ 02:48:51 ... how about you just USE IE8 ... 02:49:07 Actually, how about you use a real browser, but one step at a time. 02:49:44 First, there are many applications that rely on IE for one reason or another. 02:49:57 Second, Windows Activation happens to be one of them.. and it demands IE6 02:50:07 So when I eventually do a Repair Install... 02:50:38 Activation demands IE6? That's hilariously broken even for MS :P 02:51:08 I actually thought about attempting to .. do piratey stuff to my otherwise legit XP install to get around it 02:51:12 Last time I did a Repair Install 02:51:46 http://abstrusegoose.com/249 02:53:56 Well, restarting 02:57:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:57:22 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:00:36 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:04:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:06:20 Hm 03:06:31 Installing IE8 fixed the problem with there being no default browser 03:06:39 And it made the default browser Chrome 03:07:07 lawl 03:07:11 [Well, I think Chrome was the default, but installing IE fixed.. the thingy that handles URLs] 03:07:12 Good choice, IE8! 03:12:27 * Sgeo needs to find his library card 03:21:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:28:28 comex, congratulations 03:29:06 `addquote GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery! 03:29:19 202| GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery! 03:29:46 ALthough, uh.. this means that malicious websites could do evil things, right? 03:30:15 *GASP* 03:30:34 and here i thought malicious websites only did _good_ things 03:30:34 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 03:32:02 Sgeo: why congrats to comex? 03:32:19 http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/cw6ym/iphone_401_jailbreak_via_safari/ 03:32:32 http://www.jailbreakme.com/faq.html 03:32:55 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:37:45 Sweet. It's back. 03:39:14 god 03:39:19 im totally comment spamming this thread 03:39:29 so much to say! 03:39:32 x.x 03:39:58 http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/01/official-iphone-4-jailbreak-hits-from-iphone-dev-team/ 03:40:39 alise: you know anything about theorem proving? 03:40:45 Of what sort? 03:41:10 any 03:43:24 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 03:46:56 http://twitter.com/joshwrobel <-- boohoo 03:51:54 no huh 03:52:57 Well, goodnight. 03:53:16 Bye. 03:53:20 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:17:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:19:30 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:29:30 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 04:38:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:38:51 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 04:40:57 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:54:37 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:04:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:05:58 Dang it, uploading 70MB or so of audio files = slow :P 05:08:21 http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp10.ogg 05:11:21 AnMaster, pikhq (not here), maybe augur, anybody else who might care, ^^^ 05:16:39 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 05:30:02 Gregor: will look after BBT 05:54:13 omg bbt 05:54:14 ":D 05:54:37 Gregor: did your algos generate this? 05:55:00 >_< 05:55:04 The algos in my brain 05:55:07 And hands 05:55:15 And right foot 05:55:30 o 05:55:34 well thats not impressive 05:55:44 any skilled human composer can write good piano music 05:56:16 That sentence ... is its own definition :P 05:56:43 i dont know what that means, but ok :D 05:58:42 A skilled composer is someone who can write good music. Someone who can write good music is a skilled composer. So the only addition is "piano", which is obvious since the piano is a versatile solo instrument that nearly anyone who can play any instrument can play. 05:59:37 Oh, and "human" I suppose, but I am insufficiently skilled at MAGIC to write a skilled computer composer :P 06:00:19 it was a compliment, take it for what it is. 06:00:32 MUST ANALYZE EVERYTHING 06:01:28 also, it was a carefully crafted sentence and im glad you appreciated it for that. 06:01:30 <3 06:03:22 :P 06:10:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Well you also need _talent_...). 06:19:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:30:35 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:31:52 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 06:33:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:44:15 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow). 07:15:41 -!- tombom has joined. 07:43:53 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:53:58 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:38:55 AnMaster, pikhq (not here), maybe augur, anybody else who might care, ^^^ <-- mmm thanks, will listen in a few hours, just woke up and have to head out 08:39:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:16:21 AnMaster: Heh: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorenragsdale/3192314056/ 09:18:29 Awesome. 09:21:12 Somehow it doesn't look flight-save. 09:22:27 There's two other nice ones in a gallery about the effect: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorenragsdale/3904937619/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/meriko/4013673616/ 09:38:19 fizzie: yes. 09:39:39 i would love to do a bullettime fly around of such a thing 09:57:18 -!- DarkRedman has joined. 10:07:29 -!- DarkRedman has left (?). 10:08:27 I'm *so* happy I got RAID 1. Really 10:08:42 * AnMaster uses mdadm to fail one device 10:08:57 now to figure out which one it is physically 10:30:41 mdadm monitoring daemon mail from that: http://sprunge.us/YUZe 10:30:46 strange style it is written in 10:31:09 I mean, think about it, an auto generated mail have no reason to use P.S. ... really 10:53:13 It's a reasonably common style, though, to make app-generated emails look as if they were written by a person. 10:53:19 qmail does it a lot, IIRC. 10:53:50 It's bounces look like: 10:54:04 Hi. This is the qmail-send program at [host]. 10:54:04 I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. 10:54:04 This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. 10:55:24 AnMaster, why are you so happy? 10:56:10 One broken disk, no data loss; I presume. 10:57:04 Not with RAID 1, surely? 10:57:22 RAID 1 just striped, I thought. 10:58:05 That's RAID 0. 10:58:08 RAID 1 is the mirrored one. 11:02:44 Oh, where you just have a few disks with the same data on all of them. 11:06:46 Right. Usually few == 2. 11:08:06 One broken disk, no data loss; I presume. <-- one broken disk, no need to restore from slow backup 11:08:50 fizzie, any opinions on if this is drive or mobo? http://sprunge.us/bfPd 11:09:08 fizzie, I suspect drive since it seems to have vibration issues as well... 11:09:31 noticed that when using hdparm -y to identify which physical drive it was 11:10:02 fizzie, I would use few = 3, except my mobo only has two sata connectors 11:10:59 I wouldn't use few == 3, I'm not made of money. 11:11:09 Did you check smartctl's statistics, if applicable? 11:11:38 fizzie, I checked that, no errors reported. but that drive spun down several more times (it does at each error) 11:11:54 fizzie, but if you mean vibration stats I don't think it has that 11:12:43 Well, I guess the drive is more likely anyway; if the sata controller has been burninated, you'd probably see errors on all channels. (Of course it's probably *possible* for it to break so that only one port goes, but it's maybe not so likely.) 11:12:53 fizzie, the disk is quite readable, md data check passes but it does have vibration issues and it does spin down and lock everything up every now and then 11:13:55 fizzie, it is interesting that there seems to be no place to see that ata1.00 == sda 11:14:40 I mean, I figured it out from spin down count for smartctl -A and also that when running extended self test, the drive spun down, and when it restarted it had completely forgot about this last self test 11:20:20 ls -l /sys/dev/block | grep sda/ => "8:0 -> ../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/" -- the physical path there (target0:0:0) is somewhat likely to correspond to connectors. (Though on my system changing BIOS flips for SATA mode -- legacy IDE, AHCI, silly-RAID -- can rearrange in which order connectors {0, 1, 2, 3} and {4, 5} appear.) 11:21:18 I'm not quite sure where the "ata1.00" name comes from, though. I guess it could be something driver-internal. 11:22:27 Bleh. These two files should be identical, but one has 21639 lines in it while the other has only 16254; that's not quite identical to me. 11:22:54 fizzie, the other disk is ata2.00 iirc 11:23:12 and my dvd is ata3.00 11:25:11 The other car is a cdr. 11:26:09 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 1 aug 21.48 8:0 -> ../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:0f.0/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda 11:26:10 hm 11:26:35 fizzie, where in that did you say ata1.00 was 11:27:00 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:27:12 fizzie, and driver is sata_via iirc 11:34:06 I just think that the "ataN" numbering would be in the same order than what's in /sys/bus/scsi/devices, though there might be some differences in 0-/1-based indexing and/or if there's multiple SATA controllers around. 11:35:30 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:36:38 -!- MizardX has joined. 11:38:42 fizzie, there is a SATA controller and a PATA controller 11:40:44 fizzie, btw do you have any idea about this: 11:40:45 # lspci | grep ISA 11:40:46 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation ICH9M LPC Interface Controller (rev 03) 11:40:51 that is on a no-legacy thinkpad 11:41:06 well, some legacy I guess 11:41:08 considering that 11:41:41 There's an ISA bridge almost everywhere; often the temperature sensors/smbus/i2c/whatever are hooked to it. 11:42:09 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JDO (ICH10DO) LPC Interface Controller (rev 02) 11:42:12 hm sensors does say coretemp-isa-0000 11:42:20 but I doubt that one is actually ISA 11:42:40 thinkpad-isa-0000, well I think that is virtualish. 11:43:04 Gregor, I like your last work so far 11:46:51 I don't know what the "-isa-" part there is trying to say; coretemp uses the rdmsr opcode to read the temperature. 11:51:30 ICH's (a random version) data sheet says: "Low Pin count (LPC) Interface: Allows Connection of Legacy ISA and X-Bus devices such as Super I/O; Supports Two Master/DMA Devices". 11:52:00 I think the actual sensors in at least one of my (otherwise pretty un-legacy) boxes lives in the traditional ISA bus I/O range. 11:53:20 sensors-detect: 11:53:22 Driver `f71882fg': 11:53:22 * ISA bus, address 0x295 11:53:22 Chip `Fintek F71862FG Super IO Sensors' (confidence: 9) 11:54:19 (This was from that Atom box.) 11:55:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:06:23 hm 12:13:53 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 12:14:10 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 12:15:03 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 12:37:18 fizzie, it seems that thinkpad-isa is really provided by ACPI 12:39:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (*.net *.split). 12:39:14 -!- distant_figure has quit (*.net *.split). 12:39:14 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 12:41:10 -!- distant_figure has joined. 12:41:18 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 12:46:54 Hm, there doesn't seem to be lm-sensors package for the N900, at least in the repo. It does have drivers for the sensors; there's /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon[01] (omap temperature sensor and something in the i2c bus), and I can even read current brightness and such from the files there, but there's no user-space command-line app. (There's some battery-graphing tools that I think monitor sensors too, and a port of http://conky.sourceforge.net/, but that's about it. 13:03:09 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 13:10:13 Does it count as open-source if you distribute an executable for which there /is/ no source code? 13:12:59 Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean with no source? lost source? written in machine code directly with a hex editor? 13:13:12 the former I would say no, the latter probably yes 13:13:16 Written directly with a hex editor. 13:13:30 Phantom_Hoover, depends on the license too 13:13:58 Assuming all of those things. 13:15:08 OSI's definition is: "The source code must be the preferred form in which a programmer would modify the program." 13:15:29 So, uh... I guess it depends on which programmer you ask. 13:22:30 -!- derdon has joined. 13:27:02 fizzie, doesn't it also require that it has a free license? 13:27:09 such as BSD or GPL or whatever 13:39:17 Is using non-tail recursion A Bad Thing? 13:41:44 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 13:44:20 AnMaster: Yes, it requires all kinds of things; that was just the part defining "source code". 13:52:48 Phantom_Hoover: only for many function calls 13:53:25 derdon, recursion tends to imply many calls. 13:53:45 Phantom_Hoover: no, not necessarily 13:54:04 Phantom_Hoover: you can define this typical recursive definition of a factorial 13:54:12 Phantom_Hoover: and then compute the factorial of 5 13:54:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:54:41 Phantom_Hoover: there are less function calls than with the factorial of 100 13:54:45 should be clear 13:54:54 Yes, of course. 13:56:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:06:30 oerjan! 14:06:45 ssh, it's a secret 14:10:34 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:11:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 14:14:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:16:07 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:31:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:36:57 -!- Flonk has joined. 14:37:09 g'day 14:44:35 Good day. 15:08:34 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:16:37 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:20:23 So, cabal (Haskell) and setuptools (Python) are too similar to be explained by coincidence. Who copied who? 15:22:16 Who was first? 15:22:33 "In an effort to prevent bots from registering and spamming up the forum, you are kindly requested to refrain from registering if you are incapable of feeling love. 15:22:44 "If this prevents you from registering and you are a human, maybe you should talk to someone about it." 15:22:58 How do they test for it? 15:23:38 It's like the Turing test except... no, I cannot say. 15:27:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:29:41 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 15:29:58 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 15:32:15 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:33:57 -!- jcp has joined. 15:37:13 Random thought: conspiracy to commit a crime is itself a crime isn't it? 15:39:03 in most cases, although it's a different crime 15:39:17 in the UK, incidentally, conspiracy to defraud is illegal, but fraud itself isn't 15:39:32 OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? 15:39:53 which is a weird glitch on the legal system 15:39:58 Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime 15:40:31 norway is currently having a slight problem with this: conspiring to commit terrorism is criminal, but planning to commit terrorism by yourself isn't (unless you actually go ahead and do it) 15:41:10 Weird... 15:41:12 they arrested three people who were supposedly terrorists, but they're having trouble proving more than one of them actually knew what was happening :D 15:41:56 which means in principle _all_ of them might go free, even the main guy 15:42:12 (since they never got to actually carry out the plan) 15:58:01 `addquote OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime 15:58:07 203| OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime 16:22:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:34:59 -!- relet has joined. 16:53:14 cpressey, Cat's Eye is a consultancy complany? 16:53:27 Phantom_Hoover: Well, it used to be. 16:53:38 What is it now? 16:53:41 I don't do a lot of consulting these day. 16:53:43 *days. 16:53:53 It is what it says on the front page now :) 16:55:22 A concern? 16:55:49 Hey, if someone requires my unique services and is willing to pay me for it, I'm open to discussion. But while I was working for corporations with "non compete" clauses I couldn't do any consulting work. 16:56:00 Yes, a "concern". :) 16:56:19 heh, found cpressey's linked-in page :) "Esoteric Programming Language Designer" is an awesome job title btw 16:56:36 Yes. I take LinkedIn VERY seriously, you see... 16:56:38 * oerjan notes that "konsern" in norwegian means a large corporation 16:56:53 oerjan, probably the same root. 16:57:19 obviously 16:57:29 doesn't english 'concern' also have that meaning? 16:57:34 I think "concern" is usually how "large corporation" is translated from Japanese to English, too. 16:57:55 It's such a general, ambiguous word in English. 16:58:10 c -> k,s according to pronunciation is a regular rule in norwegian spelling 16:59:11 actually it seems to mean a group of companies 16:59:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concern_(business) seems to be a german borrowing 17:00:15 cpressey, what business can you do with esolangs? 17:00:37 Phantom_Hoover: You tell me! :) 17:00:46 -!- sshc_ has joined. 17:00:57 cpressey, torture device? 17:01:22 "So, you won't talk? Then implement quicksort in Lazy K!" 17:01:40 that article has some horrible grammar :D 17:02:07 if you start posting esolangs on the esolangs reddit you can at least get some reddit karma 17:04:28 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:07:20 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 17:07:34 There's an esolangs reddit? 17:07:49 http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/ 17:08:11 "conglomerate" seems to be a more precise english equivalent. maybe _too_ precise. 17:08:25 * Sgeo was about to ask why eso-std is mentioned, but it's apparently 2 years old 17:08:30 (or narrow) 17:08:49 there was an initial torrent of activity around the time it started, a couple of years later I made the first comment 17:09:27 oerjan: In English it can be used informally to refer to a single company or other organization 17:10:18 Or, of course, in the very general sense of "nexus of interest", which is kind of how I was applying it. 17:14:24 * oerjan isn't sure if you can say that in norwegian without being closer to either issue ("sak") or worry ("bekymring") 17:16:24 I think the same applies to swedish 17:17:03 hm looking at wiktionary interest ("interesse") might also apply 17:17:14 oddly enough we have the verb concern (as 'koncernera') in swedish 17:17:39 not in norwegian afaik 17:18:39 but it's very seldomly used (would sound very swenglish, although it's very old and actually imported from german rather than english) 17:19:44 it has synonyms though - avse, angå, röra 17:19:53 might use berøre ("touch") 17:20:07 ah angå as well 17:31:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:35:12 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:48:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:50:07 cpressey: Oh, but "concern" would apply to catseye also in the "concern, worry, headache, vexation -- (something or someone that causes anxiety; a source of unhappiness; "New York traffic is a constant concern"; "it's a major worry")" sense pretty well, wouldn't it? 17:50:20 fizzie: Yup :) 17:50:59 oh, wasn't that exactly what someone meant? 17:51:03 Whatever is to be done with all these esolangs? 17:51:20 "but cat's eye doesn't do anything now" -> "is that something to be worried about?" 17:55:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 17:56:45 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 18:07:25 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:52:20 Is there a minimum number of bits required for a Unicode character? 18:53:41 They've promised that all Unicode characters will be in the range from 0 to 0x10ffff, if that's what you mean. 18:54:28 And if that's NOT what you mean, then yes but that's more a question about compression than about Unicode. 18:56:01 Rather large amounts of that range are currently empty, but of course they might fill them later. (Since they did jump from the original 16 bits to 17 planes of that size, I guess it's concievable that they might go all "whoops, we'll need a bit more range after all" again.) 18:56:16 Phantom_Hoover, um. what encoding? 18:56:34 unicode is not an encoding after all... utf-8, utf-16, UCS4 and so on are 18:56:40 Not encoding; just the codepoints. 18:56:41 fizzie: As long as they don't introduce a typesetting equivalent of leap seconds... 18:57:20 Presumably there's a specified largest codepoint, which can be represented with a fixed number of bits. 18:57:20 Phantom_Hoover, well, I guess one but for the first two chars, two bits for the first 4 chars and so on :P 18:57:25 Phantom_Hoover: It's a finite range, at least at the moment. 18:57:33 Phantom_Hoover: 0x10ffff, like I said. 18:57:36 ah not in that sense 18:57:43 fizzie, the moment? They could embiggen it in the future? 18:57:59 fizzie, why only 0x10ffff ? And not 0xffffff 18:58:02 Phantom_Hoover: They could replace the contents of the standard with base64-encoded porn in the future, if they want. 18:58:15 Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, they've sort-of promised they won't. 18:58:21 Good enough. 18:58:38 (Expand it, I mean. I don't know if they've made any promises about the porn thing.) 18:59:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:59:30 AnMaster: I don't know why; there's the BMP and then 16 "supplemental planes" of the same size; 17*65536-1 gives 0x10ffff. 19:00:20 fizzie, huh 19:00:45 It's a bit curious that they defined 16 supplemental planes and not 15; with 15 it'd be a reasonable [0, 0xfffff] range. 19:01:05 fizzie, 24 bits? 19:01:30 20 bits. One nybble for the plane, 16 for index in it. 19:01:48 Planes 3-13 (in the numbering where BMP is 0, and the rest are 1...16) are unassigned at the moment, so it's mostly empty still. 19:02:24 I always thought unicode was 32-bit... Now I'm all confused 19:02:49 fizzie: plane 3 is finally being filled with some other anarchic ideographs. 19:02:51 UTF-8 maxes out at 21 bits. 19:02:57 huh 19:02:59 Like you said, it's not an encoding; there's just the range of defined codepoints. 19:03:08 Maybe that's why there's so much empty space in atoms and galaxies -- reserved for future expansion. 19:03:12 11110xxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 19:04:30 Although a five-byte non-standard UTF-8 encoding would be pretty obvious: 111110xx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 19:04:41 And the six-byte, too. 19:04:52 I guess that goes up to the full 32-bit range. 19:05:16 Or maybe not. There's 31 "data" bits in a six-byte sequence. 19:05:39 SO CLOSE 19:05:52 Wasn't it so that the earlier UTF-8 spec did go up to 6 bytes? 19:06:01 "The original specification allowed for sequences of up to six bytes covering numbers up to 31 bits (the original limit of the Universal Character Set). However, UTF-8 was restricted by RFC 3629 (Note: IETF doesn't define UTF-8, Unicode does) to use only the area covered by the formal Unicode definition, U+0000 to U+10FFFF, in November 2003." 19:06:06 Right, it seems to have been. 19:06:13 Seven-byte, with the first byte containing no payload :P 19:06:31 fizzie: 31-bit limit seems to be a original codepoint space of UCS (before it kept synchronized to unicode) 19:06:43 Gregor-P: You could do that, but it'd be even more nonstandard, if that's a concept. 19:09:16 Eight-byte UTF-8 would break all the invariants though :( 19:09:43 11111111 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 19:10:02 And nine-byte is crazy stew. 19:10:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:11:11 Why do I get "! Emergency stop." when entering "\relax" at the METAFONT prompt? 19:12:44 Because Irony is still up to her old tricks, it seems. 19:13:17 maybe \panic will reset the emergency brakes 19:13:19 I have tried entering other things too, I get the same error regardless of what command I enter. 19:13:36 I get the same error with "\panic" 19:13:47 Just like anything else I try 19:21:10 \don't panic 19:22:40 That isn't going to work any better (I did try it anyways) 19:24:10 zzo38: Try "plain" ? 19:24:54 Now I got a whole bunch of stuff but it still stopped 19:25:10 zzo38: OK, so at least that's something 19:25:13 And I got various error messages 19:25:13 I got that from: http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=useMF 19:25:44 Including "! Missing `)' has been inserted." and "! Missing `=' has been inserted." and various other things. 19:25:56 Find some sort of metafont example and build on that? It doesn't sound very feasible to just start typing stuff and find things out by trial-and-error, no matter how noble it sounds. 19:26:18 I did find an example, and the example told me to start by typing "\relax". 19:26:39 Bad example! /me whacks example with newspaper 19:26:41 There's a bit on MetaFont in this TeX book -- http://makingtexwork.sourceforge.net/mtw/ch11.html -- but it's mostly about how to run existing programs. 19:26:57 Followed by "a+b-c=0;" 19:27:15 However it stops after "\relax" so I can't get a chance to enter "a+b-c=0;" 19:28:28 Hm. 19:28:36 O, I must have forgotten to build the base files. 19:28:39 "mf" here does what the example says it should. 19:28:51 (Namely, change the prompt from ** to *.)' 19:30:13 Which directories do I build the base with MiKTeX? Is there some environment variables I need to set? 19:31:46 (With TeX it works to enter "\relax" at the "**" prompt and then any TeX codes can be entered, and it won't be emergency stop until CTRL+C is pushed.) 19:32:04 I get the feelin' yer askin' the wrong channel, pilgrim. 19:32:42 cpressey: I do too but what is the right channel? I can't find it 19:33:20 zzo38: errr... have you tried in #latex ? 19:33:35 Just a guess 19:34:04 -!- tombom has joined. 19:34:11 O, I tried #TeX and #metafont 19:34:25 Now I know. 19:34:27 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 19:46:43 Now I have an itch to build an excessively convoluted command-line interface. 19:52:21 after reading some more about php, I now have an itch to get rid of wordpress 19:52:49 olsner: And rewrite it in Perl :P 19:53:00 OH BUT PHP IS BEAUTY INCARNATE 19:53:02 definitely not perl, anything except perl 19:53:14 probably not python either 19:53:34 The real problem is that all languages suck. 19:53:37 yeah 19:54:04 olsner, why does PHP incur such hatred? 19:54:07 Some do suck less than others. 19:54:43 Phantom_Hoover: it's mostly because it's a language which is easy to write badly in, commonly used by bad programmers, and also badly designed (especially wrt security) 19:54:46 PHP's only real problems are that it's like a language from 1985 in terms of features and that its library is an enormous flat namespace. 19:54:58 http://catseye.tc/about/php.html 19:55:06 Namespacing never stopped CL... 19:55:29 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Because everyone uses CL. 19:55:45 Fair enough. 19:56:15 s/CL/C/ 19:56:58 Even C has a better namespace story thanks to separate compilation. 19:57:32 oh wow, the PHP while loop... what's sad is that it seems *every* feature of php has been implemented similarly 19:57:37 There is THAT. PHP is an interpreted language that doesn't even have separate compilation, go figure. 19:58:19 The problem though is that every other language sucks too :P 19:58:32 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:58:44 none of the perfect languages suck! 19:58:59 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:59:04 IMHO PHP is better for its purpose than Python, but worse for any other purpose, and both are terrible :P 19:59:07 neither do any of the non-perfect but still non-sucky ones 19:59:59 Haskell doesn't suck. 20:00:00 Gregor-P: you mean it's better than python for php's purpose or better than python is for *its* purpose? 20:00:02 HAHAHAHA 20:00:25 olsner: Better thab Python at being PHP :P 20:00:31 *than 20:00:43 -!- sshc has joined. 20:01:15 cpressey: I DESPERATELY want somebody to write a Hackiki userland in Haskell :P 20:02:49 It would be AWESOME 20:03:09 Gregor-P: yeah yeah. So what would it take for a language to not suck?\ 20:03:25 Because I agree, they all do. Even if some more than others. 20:03:46 The soft ones are too soft and the hard ones are too hard. 20:04:01 I don't know. 20:04:03 Well, they suck, ultimately, because you can't go straight from thoughts to code. 20:04:18 Plof ain't it, as fun as it is :P 20:04:25 Oh god, maintaining someone else's thoughts would be a nightmare. 20:04:42 cpressey: ... literally. 20:04:50 Yeah pretty much. 20:08:45 Well, define "perfect" for a language. 20:09:18 Oh, is the problem that simple? X-P 20:09:33 take all existing good-enough languages, eliminate their suckage, you should end up with perfection 20:12:08 yup, but it won't compile. 20:15:51 olsner, what languages do you define as "good enough"? 20:16:17 the ones that are good enough, of course 20:17:19 Also, they're "good enough" in wildly incompatible ways and for completely different reasons. 20:17:39 hmm, ok, of the ones I've tried, probably haskell is the only one that qualifies 20:17:53 NOT GOOD ENOUGH 20:18:10 and C is pretty close due to its simplicity (but is lacking obvious enhancements that would make it good enough) 20:18:26 Plof is the king of languages and the language of kings. 20:20:25 How about recursiveC: a C-based language in which you can define arbitrary code to be "static", and the output of that static code is code. You could implement e.g. OO as libraries. Compile to fixed-point! 20:20:59 Haskell, Python, Java, and C have a significantly lower rate of making me vomit than PHP, and C++ 20:21:19 Not sure about Perl -- it's in between 20:21:35 Not sure about Ruby either 20:21:42 "The core bytecode language is only a few hundred operations" :/ java makes do with just over 100 iirc, and that's with many operations duplicated for ints, longs, doubles, floats and objects 20:22:22 Gregor-P: RecursiveC sounds like an idiomatically Gregoresque language. 20:23:05 Gregor-P: re recursiveC: DOUBLE COMPILE. (reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w and related) 20:25:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:25:13 Gregor-P: C++ did that, but instead of overloading yet another meaning of 'static' they introduced a new keyword: 'template' 20:27:47 See, Plof is far far too soft and recursiveC is far far too hard. 20:28:46 I suspect we still (as a species) have yet to learn how to specify programming languages well. 20:29:02 And "still have yet" is redundant. 20:29:12 So there, cpressey. :P 20:30:11 is it redundant? I think there's been a number of projects that tried to fix the "have yet to learn", but it didn't help and we *still* "have yet to learn" it 20:30:34 Hm, ok, maybe not. Awkward, though.... 20:31:59 same goes for most of the other aspects of making software IMO, "software engineering" = lol 20:33:53 olsner: Agreed. 20:37:19 "Better is Worse": your tab completion is so clever, it hangs 20:39:52 *coughzshcough* 20:40:13 Ah, let's not forget, all shells suck, too. And editors. 20:40:37 And all wikis 20:40:42 EXCEPT FOR HACKIKI 20:47:45 Yesh 20:48:30 olsner: C++ totally does not fit my definition, you can't generate truly arbitrary C++ from templates 20:50:41 olsner: Oh and by the way, Java and Plof's bytecodes are roughly the same size in terms of total number of instructions, though what those instructions do is of course wildly different. 20:51:12 I think it would be nice to have a pragma or such that says "Try to reduce this expression to a constant at compile time". Instead of something as heavy-handed as defining it as a macro. 20:51:26 In fact ... come to think of it, I'm not sure where "few hundred" came from ... 20:52:01 (Of course, you couldn't stop such a pragma from hanging on arbitrary code.) 20:52:39 java has 204, so a bit more than just 100, but still "a few hundred" is a huge number of op-codes imo :) 20:53:09 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 20:54:09 The truthiness about the size of PSL: 88 core opcodes, plus 13 for the C foreign function interface (probably less for other potential FFIs) 20:54:13 Gregor-P, isn't your suggestion just Lisp's macro system wedged into C 20:54:14 ? 20:54:38 CIL (that .NET thing) has 229 opcodes; it's in the same ballpark as the Java VM. 20:55:00 CIL, aka the C# Virtual Machine. 20:55:27 Phantom_Hoover: Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda, but since the "static" code (choose a better keyword) is C, the behavior would be wildly different. 20:55:43 And declaring that Lisp is the answer to all problems is the problem to all answers. 20:55:52 Gregor-W: In the sense that it would be a lot more painful to write, sure. 20:56:12 Just depends on how much jelly we're willing to nail to the tree of C to make it easier. 20:56:14 Gregor-W, you'd need to operate on the AST to avoid insanity, really. 20:56:37 HEY GUYS this is not a real idea it was just a joke I spat from my brain :P 20:56:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 20:56:40 And making the AST part of the language standard is surely madness. 20:57:23 Gregor-W: a joke? you should know you can't joke about stuff like that here 20:57:34 Hey, if somebody wants to write it, sweet. 20:58:02 Beer to Phantom_Hoover. 20:58:53 I'm thinking about actually implementing something like that in my language at some point, but it would probably be limited to type functions and use some kind of quasi-quoting 20:59:35 I was thinking about implementing that in my language. Then: PLOF! :P 20:59:43 of course 20:59:45 (Which is to say, that BECAME the language :P ) 20:59:58 Doesn't... oh never mind. 21:00:03 olsner, what's your language like? 21:00:36 Phantom_Hoover: somewhat like sugar and spice and all things nice 21:00:55 no, it's just a silly little language, nothing to worry about 21:01:31 Nothing to see here, move along, move along? 21:01:39 yep 21:02:14 Well, I have an idea for a C-like language with explicit malloc and free but provably safe. But it wouldn't be doing this "staticification" thing so far as I know. 21:03:52 provably safe against which kinds of abuse? 21:04:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:04:16 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 21:04:25 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 21:04:28 Um, never executing any machine code that you didn't mean to. Buffer overruns and such. 21:05:01 Oh, I figured you meant provably type-safe, never possible to dereference into data of one type while thinking it's another type. 21:05:09 If you have this wussy concept of safe, then it might be more feasible. 21:05:39 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:05:59 It's type-safe for a certain type system. 21:06:10 It's not a very large or interesting type system... 21:06:19 lawl 21:06:33 I <3 that argument 21:07:14 If you define the type system such that the language is type-safe, *poof*, type safety! :P 21:09:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:17:34 There are only 3 types: integers, structure of (type*), and pointer to type (which may or may not be valid.) But in that, it should be "type safe", including the property that you can't dereference an invalid pointer. 21:23:26 You'll either need whole-program analysis, or for parameters to be marked "freeable" 21:23:48 Or, for free to be a no-op :P 21:26:30 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 21:27:09 Not sure what you mean about marking parameters "freeable". The other two I know I'm not going to do... 21:29:02 But I don't think I'll be doing that either. Speaking literally, any pointer could be free()d at any time. 21:30:07 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 21:31:58 So here's my basic fear and reasoning: struct nasty { void (*nasty)(); }; void evil(struct nasty *n) { free(n); malloc(somegarbageWhichWillNowTakeNsPlace); } void main() { struct nasty *n = malloc(sizeof(struct nasty)); n->nasty = something reasonable; evil(n); n->nasty(); } // how can you possibly avoid this case if you don't statically know whether evil() frees? 21:33:13 You can either disallow it, but it generalizes to "make any use of a pointer after aliasing it or using it as a parameter", or ... well, or nothing. 21:33:24 Well, for one, I don't have function pointers. But I suppose that's a theoretically moot point, but give me some time to mentally translate the problem. 21:34:44 The function pointer was just to make it immediately obvious, it could be any pointer, maybe even other shtuff. 21:35:10 hmm, you'd need to have some kind of ownership tracking and put that in the type system, wouldn't you? 21:35:14 cpressey, removing function pointers is if anything a step backwards. 21:35:38 Gregor-W: Well, perhaps I should qualify my use of the word "pointer". Pointers in my language don't map directly to machine pointers. They have some smarts in them. 21:36:07 Phantom_Hoover: A step backwards? Define "forwards". 21:36:17 Unless those "smarts" are a garbage collector, I doubt it's sufficient :P 21:36:34 Well, being able to pass functions as arguments is extremely useful. 21:36:38 Gregor-W: K, well, I'm not certain myself. We'll see :) 21:36:52 I look forward to it. 21:39:45 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:44:54 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 21:45:02 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:07:26 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:08:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:11:14 -!- alise has joined. 22:11:32 I have no beliefs that cannot be dissuaded with cake. 22:12:00 What of the belief that you have no beliefs that cannot be dissuaded with cake? 22:12:05 * cpressey offers alise some cake 22:12:13 Hm? Hm? 22:12:33 I refuse the cake. 22:13:16 Drat. Well, twas worth a show. 22:13:20 Or a shot 22:15:23 Yer not the only one with a crazy OS, cpressey. >:| 22:15:30 I am implanting evil ideas into Phantom_Hoover's head. 22:15:38 Phantom_Hoover! 22:15:43 Sorry, reflex. 22:15:45 05:28:14 Ian? 22:15:50 I can neither confirm nor deny. 22:15:51 cpressey: wat. 22:16:09 alise: Ask oerjan about Phantom_Hoover's mind control device sometime. 22:16:32 Now what about Ian? 22:16:46 Ah, right. 22:17:01 Ian is someone's middle name whose initials are ais and who, on some university, has account number 523 of his initials. 22:17:04 I will say no more! 22:17:44 That would certainly explain the middle initial, then. 22:23:35 But I only have aaaaaaaaaaaais for youuuuuuuuu (why did this pop into my head :P) 22:30:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:53 cpressey: the mind-control device that lets Phantom_Hoover control other people's minds or the one that lets us control his mind? 22:41:20 olsner, ask oerjan! 22:41:55 is he the resident expert on Phantom_Hoover mind control? 22:42:14 He's the only one that will talk about it. 22:43:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:06:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:08:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:08:52 INTERNET 23:09:46 YAY 23:11:03 Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. 23:11:27 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 23:11:31 pikhq: http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp10.ogg kthx :P 23:11:35 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Client Quit). 23:12:15 ... Did he actually have a script set to ping him for my joining? 23:13:01 haha 23:13:11 No, I was just too lazy to type that URL on my phone :P 23:13:16 :P 23:13:29 * pikhq shall listen to that after finishing Bohemian Rhapsody 23:13:38 It's a long URL! D-8 23:14:12 * pikhq loves having good Internet again 23:14:21 Not just Internet, but *good* Internet. 23:14:35 Deciding to move 4 days before moving is t3h awesome. :P 23:15:05 pikhq: So are you in Hick Town now, or Hicky Hick Town? 23:15:22 As opposed to your previous residence, Hicky Hick Hicky Hick Hicky Hick Hicky Hick (Hicky Hick)^G_64 Town? 23:15:26 alise: I'm in a suburb of an actual (shock) city! 23:15:39 Hahahahaha, but seriously now, which is it. 23:15:50 * [pikhq] lindbohm.freenode.net :Stockholm, Sweden 23:15:52 Question answered. 23:16:02 (Note: Server locations TOTALLY ARE people locations.) 23:16:33 `addquote INTERNET YAY Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. 23:16:42 204| INTERNET YAY Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. 23:18:19 Cool, I'm in Oregon. 23:18:23 alise: you realize that's just your server? 23:18:28 Is there anything in Oregon? 23:18:33 I DON'T KNOw 23:18:35 coppro: (Note: Server locations TOTALLY ARE people locations.) 23:18:42 Freenode whois doesn't tell you which server someone's on, just which server location you're on 23:18:45 Phantom_Hoover: Which Oregon? 23:18:49 Erm. 23:18:52 I thought you said Portland. 23:18:54 The one in the Us. 23:19:06 Phantom_Hoover: My answer, then, is that there is Portland, wherein there is David Parsons. 23:19:18 I do not know who that is. 23:19:32 Minimalist grumpy coder extraordinaire! 23:19:37 Gregor-P: So far (4:30), I quite like Opus 13, movement 2, WIP 10. 23:19:39 Also, that guy whose name I forget. 23:19:47 !*^&*@%@# 23:19:51 Nick Welch. 23:20:01 He is also a minimalist grumpy coder but less of both. (The TinyWM author) 23:20:10 Also I'm from there! 23:20:31 ... What the hell so many packets at once 23:20:43 Gregor-P: I was mentioning people worth knowing 23:20:49 *I was talking about people 23:20:59 :'( 23:21:27 -!- Gregor-P has changed nick to Gregor-Portlandi. 23:21:30 Gregor-P: Aww I'm kidding you're adorable like a fluffy teddy bear, now where is the documentation for libavcodec? I can't find any. 23:21:31 Ooh, I be quoted twice in one day. 23:21:32 Foo 23:21:42 `quote 199 23:21:44 199| Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on 23:21:44 -!- Gregor-Portlandi has changed nick to Gregor-P. 23:21:48 `quote 204 23:21:50 204| INTERNET YAY Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. 23:21:52 `quote 203 23:21:57 203| OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime 23:22:08 YOU DO NOT PUT THREE SPACES BETWEEN MESSAGES. 23:22:10 TWO! TWO! 23:22:23 Gregor-P, YOU STOLE MY JUSTIFICATION STRETCHING 23:22:40 Dammit, I have the longest nick on this channel. Me 23:22:48 s/$/!/ 23:22:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 23:23:01 Phantom_Hoover: I suggest "pH". 23:23:07 -!- alise has changed nick to pH. 23:23:11 AWW IT'S TAKEN. 23:23:14 It is slick though. 23:23:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________. 23:23:18 Ha! 23:23:25 -!- pH has changed nick to alise. 23:23:40 * PH______________ is Very Untrustworthy 23:24:28 -!- PH______________ has changed nick to f. 23:24:39 I cannot believe this isn't taken. 23:24:42 Or maybe... 23:24:44 It is. 23:24:48 It's reserved. 23:24:52 Like almost all single-char names. 23:24:58 The others are really-old-timers, or staff. 23:25:04 Yes, but I can still take it... 23:25:04 Mostly staff, and they never use it. 23:25:28 -!- alise has changed nick to pH7. 23:25:41 -!- pH7 has changed nick to alise. 23:26:18 -!- f has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 23:27:58 Dear God: 23:28:04 Please supply me with libavcodec documentation. 23:28:05 <3, 23:28:05 alise 23:28:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to God. 23:28:18 I swear it has no official docs. 23:28:22 Seriously. 23:28:24 Why should it? 23:28:34 alise, my child, I can only manifest for 30 seconds 23:28:39 The docs are at... 23:28:41 -!- Gregor-P has changed nick to write. 23:28:46 cpressey: Because it's the main part of FFmpeg, a super-major software project? 23:28:48 -!- God has changed nick to Guest26718. 23:28:54 I forgot that I own this nick :P 23:29:02 -!- Guest26718 has changed nick to read. 23:29:10 -!- read has changed nick to Moriarty. 23:29:17 alise: OPEN!!!!! SOURCE!!!!! 23:29:28 cpressey: No dissing ffmpeg. That's Fabrice Bellard you're dissing there. 23:29:33 You Do Not Diss Fabrice Fucking Bellard. 23:29:43 alise: Fabrice Bellard is not known for comprehensive documentation. 23:29:45 -!- Moriarty has changed nick to grub. 23:29:48 No diss express or implied. 23:29:52 Yeah, but he isn't them main FFmpeg dev any more :P 23:29:53 Fabrice Fucking Bellard. Mmmmmmmmmmm 23:30:11 -!- write has changed nick to Gregor-P. 23:30:13 All Gregor's gay fantasies are open source-related and preferably autosexual. 23:30:15 -!- grub has changed nick to Guest19696. 23:30:19 -!- Guest19696 has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 23:30:21 Oh, or Apollo-related. 23:30:42 alise: Not all of them! 23:30:55 Okay, but you don't tell us about the rest. 23:32:10 alise: Can't I be a zealot about how DARE you ask for documentation on a product where you can read the KODE?? Oh, *can't* I? PulEEZE? 23:32:15 DOGS that are simultaneously MACHINES. 23:32:25 Dashing DOG Machines; they are invading our Planet. 23:32:37 cpressey: Well, with a literate program, yeah, you could. :P 23:33:02 alise: NO. ALL DESCRIPTIONS OF THE CODE GO OUT OF DATE. ONLY CODE, CODE. IT IS TEH GOPSEL 23:33:14 That's because the nick list of this channel IS the rest! 23:33:48 Gregor-P, what about theoretical females on the channel? 23:33:56 They're gay fantasies too. 23:34:05 Gregor-P: You /could/ just be blatant about it and, say, propose a channel-wide orgy. 23:34:40 Are there actually any women on this channel? 23:34:49 No. Used to be. 23:34:49 I PROPOSE A CHANNEL-WIDE ORGY however alise is not invited for legal, ethical and personal reasons. 23:34:50 The only one I can think of seems to be lament. 23:34:59 Gregor-P: My heart is crushed. 23:35:58 Gregor-P: You understand if I stalk you down and murder you, right? 23:36:32 alise, not if I murder YOU first. 23:37:01 Cool, everyone in this channel can end up chasing each other and end up inadvertently having Gregor-P's planned orgy. 23:37:31 alise, you're in the forbidden zone for the Device. 23:37:45 I USE THE DEVICE 23:37:48 Whatever it is. 23:37:55 Phantom_Hoover: Wait, lament is not female. 23:38:39 cpressey, I thought lament's real name was Nikita something? 23:38:56 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, and Nikita is not solely a female name. 23:39:04 Ahh. 23:39:10 So there are none... 23:39:30 lol 23:39:35 lament is very much male :P 23:39:42 lament is one of two other esolangers I've met in person. (The other was BEM.) 23:39:47 and a certified Crazy Op, so BE CAREFUL 23:39:49 cpressey: BEM? 23:39:57 Also, is he as unstable in real life? 23:39:58 BEM = Ben Olmstead, of Malbolge 23:40:00 Crazy Op? 23:40:05 Phantom_Hoover: He runs this chan. 23:40:08 Well, not really. 23:40:10 BEM = Bug-Eyed Monster 23:40:10 AAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:40:11 He de jure runs this chan. 23:40:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 23:40:38 alise: He was very nice in real life. Ask him how unstable *I* am sometime :D 23:40:38 Who's the Mysterious Founder, then? 23:40:50 Phantom_Hoover: andreou or someon 23:40:51 *someone 23:40:53 I forget the exact name. 23:40:58 Phantom_Hoover: Aardappel was founder at one point. 23:41:13 (of FALSE, Sauerbraten fame.) 23:41:13 Who started the channel itself? 23:41:17 Andreou or someone. 23:41:17 Uh, I would have thought "founder" was an immutable property. 23:41:19 Silly me! 23:41:22 I forget precisely. It's in the list logs somewhere. 23:41:27 cpressey: Welcome to ChanServ! 23:41:42 cpressey: Please abandon your sanity at the door. If you don't have any, get some then abandon it. 23:42:41 Let's see... channel founding is late 2002... 23:43:05 Hmm, where has it gone. 23:43:27 I think the established point is that if we had a channel-wide orgy, we'd all be on equal footing :P 23:43:30 HEre we go. 23:43:36 From: "Al. Andreou" 23:43:36 X-X-Sender: 23:43:36 To: 23:43:36 Subject: [chat] Esolang IRC channel 23:43:42 He set up the channel on EFnet as #esoterica. 23:43:54 lament then suggested moving to the Open Projects Network (freenode). 23:44:00 Oooh, X-X-Sender 23:44:08 andreou then refounded this very channel. 23:44:13 grep /IRC/: http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4 23:44:16 *Grep 23:44:30 Aardappel was a founder at one point, I think; or at least an op. 23:44:58 Incidentally, even in 2003/2004, lament was talking about how the channel is so dead nowadays. :) 23:45:14 Of course, the graphs say that activity has been steadily increasing since forever... 23:45:18 Well, I have a grammar for Eightebed. It's 19 lines long. Now I have to implement it. 23:45:30 is there a mailing list? or is that dead by now? 23:45:31 cpressey: I have a feeling Eightebed is not your most thoughtful esolang yet. 23:45:34 olsner: yes, it exists 23:45:49 olsner: if you sign up, every few months -- years, sometimes -- you get a quick thread of fun with some nice faces shown 23:45:52 alise: It's not super esoteric, no. 23:45:59 olsner: the price is a 2000% increase in spam box traffic 23:46:05 alise: heh, ok 23:46:05 olsner: (barely even an exaggeration) 23:46:09 olsner: It's fine if you have gmail. :P 23:46:21 cpressey: But it must be ENLIGHTENING! 23:46:48 Sorry; EIGHTEBEDING! 23:47:09 alise: It's a design in response to Gregor's comments about why a language like Cyclone should have GC. (It's a language with explicit malloc/free, with only a modicum of static analysis, but which is nonetheless safe.) 23:47:35 I know what Cyclone is. 23:47:44 Anyway, pah, I hereby copyright Eightebed(C). 23:47:44 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 23:47:45 s/should/must/ 23:47:49 Maybe I should have put "should" in quotes -- see log over past few days for the various views of the parties mentioned. 23:47:49 Yes, I am copyrighting names now. 23:47:54 Also trademarking. And registered trademarking. 23:47:59 Eightebed(C)(R)(TM). 23:48:14 I don't like being forced to do things 23:48:23 alise: What must I do to get your permission to use the name Eightebed then? 23:48:40 cpressey, I have the Device. 23:48:47 Phantom_Hoover! 23:48:52 Oh, I see that you do. 23:49:10 Wait, is Sgeo here? 23:49:15 cpressey, you see, it follows the inverse square law. 23:49:25 cpressey: It involves five yaks, a Golden toad that hasn't eaten for five days, five boxes of antique confetti (not stripped of uranium), dye number 90 (blood green), a very confused weasel, and three pieces of A4.15 paper. 23:49:30 Running it on alise would be... ugly. 23:49:43 Yes. But Sgeo is AFK. There is only SgeoN1 23:50:04 And XUL 23:50:19 Wow, you reference Mozilla namespace pages before Ghostbusters. 23:50:27 cpressey: Can you supply these things? 23:50:40 alise: Well then! I may have to consult my lawyer. Who, thankfully, is also my yak husbander. 23:50:52 I was aware that the XUL thing was a reference of some sort... 23:51:04 SgeoN1: You've never seen Ghostbusters? 23:51:09 Please tell me that you have seen Ghostbusters. 23:51:22 The confetti will be hard to acquire. The weasel's state of confusion, however, should not. 23:51:31 Sorry 23:51:45 SgeoN1: Okay, so that is why you are so strange. 23:51:50 SgeoN1: I prescribe one dosage of Ghostbusters. 23:51:52 SgeoN1, you haven't seen Ghostbusters? 23:51:55 :O 23:51:57 SgeoN1: ... You have been living under a rock. 23:51:58 SgeoN1: Actually. Make that two. 23:52:11 alise, haven't seen the second one. 23:52:20 No. 23:52:22 I just mean two dosages. 23:52:27 cpressey: I request that all harm is done to animals in the making of this production. 23:52:29 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:53:00 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 23:53:20 alise, can we use the Device for doing harm? 23:53:31 Phantom_Hoover: /I have no idea what you are talking about./ 23:53:44 No, of course not. 23:53:53 The Device has a habit of causing that. 23:54:29 SCP-055? 23:54:43 Maybe. 23:54:51 I've forgotten myself. 23:55:14 Forgotten what? 23:55:35 Exactly. 23:56:38 It is definitely not a cube. Whatever it was I was talking about is definitely not a cube. 23:56:54 FWIW, SCP-055 is simply designed so that it slips right off the human mind, while the Device is rather more... proactive. 23:57:02 It's the world's most evil sex toy. 23:57:34 alise, not originally. It might be repurposable to that end. 23:57:53 Anyone know how to make the first line of a LaTeX paragraph all in small-caps? 23:58:16 I thought you were the resident LaTeX knowitall. 23:58:44 * SgeoN1 ponders making an epub of the FLR 23:59:56 SgeoN1: LaTeX the FLR. Oh god, I must do that. 2010-08-03: 00:00:07 Phantom_Hoover: Nah; know it a little, but... 00:00:24 * cpressey leaves before he finds out what "the FLR" is 00:00:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:00:44 Agora, sheesh! :P 00:01:09 Sgeo, FLR? 00:01:16 pikhq, maybe? 00:01:23 Phantom_Hoover: The Full Logical Ruleset of Agora Nomic. 00:01:47 Full Logical? 00:01:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:01:57 alise: This month's copy of the FLR, I presume? 00:02:11 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 00:02:27 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 00:02:52 pikhq: Maybe I could AUTOMATE IT. /salivates 00:02:59 Ooh, provide little page numbers above rule references! 00:03:06 Phantom_Hoover: It's logical because it is. It's full because it includes rule history. 00:03:10 The Short Logical Ruleset doesn't. 00:03:12 Things that will be done when I am in charge: all image transforms will be banned. 00:05:10 Well, all image transforms in the context of photographs of oneself. 00:07:14 I was assuming it would be automated 00:07:36 Can you make epubs from LaTeX? I'd assume so... 00:08:10 SgeoN1: Uh, maybe. 00:08:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:08:22 pikhq: I need typographical opinions! If you are using drop caps, and start a chapter with a quote mark, how to set it? 00:08:30 I think there used to be chronological rulesets. I glanced at Agoranomic back in 2003 or 2005 or so. 00:08:37 Should the drop cap be {``E}? If so, does the `` extend into the margin? (Yes.) 00:08:45 Or should it be {E}, with a normal `` in the margin preceding it? 00:08:51 If the latter, how can I achieve this with LaTeX/ 00:09:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:10:50 *LaTeX? 00:10:55 alise: I'm pretty sure it should be drop-cap'd {``E}, with `` extended into the margin. 00:11:04 How you achieve this, I know not. 00:11:10 pikhq: But then the closing '' looks unbalanced. 00:12:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:13:10 Yeah, but... Everything else is ugly. 00:13:17 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 00:13:31 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 00:13:33 Small quote mark? *ugh* 00:14:29 I dunno, it could work, if in the margin. 00:14:39 I'm guessing I shouldn't be the one to epub-ify the FLR, given my cluelessness when it comes to typography 00:15:49 Although it would make me as famous as comex! Ok, not really, but I'm jealous 00:17:45 It's just a fucking iPhone jailbreak. 00:18:09 And Wii hacking. 00:20:19 That garners rather less fame. 00:22:12 SgeoN1: chroniclor 00:22:41 That sounds more like an office 00:22:52 it is 00:22:56 you should take it 00:22:57 and do it 00:22:59 Also, CFJs should be epubbed 00:22:59 and become famous 00:23:00 * alise indents his first paragraph in latex 00:23:04 *her 00:23:07 Why? Because it's only one line. 00:23:42 Hmm 00:24:01 I'd only be Agoranomic...known 00:24:24 My phone has agoranomic as an autocorrect 00:28:29 Incidentally, Bjorn is the worst poet ever. 00:30:39 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:33:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:38:15 Bye 00:38:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:40:07 alise: no 00:40:27 No what? 00:40:32 not the worst poet ever 00:40:39 Oh really? 00:40:39 worst poet ever died when Earth exploded obv 00:40:55 “Incorrigible shopkeeper thou, 00:40:55 Who cannot even fields plow: 00:40:55 ‘Dear sir, I must be sure 00:40:55 Do you frolick and play in manure?’ 00:40:55 Is a question I’m sure you’re oft asked; 00:40:56 And this divine duty with which I’m tasked? 00:40:58 To retrieve my stolen Device.” 00:41:18 coppro: Douglas Adams cannot emulate a truly terrible poet as well as a bad poet can. 00:42:45 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:45:00 -!- nooga has joined. 00:45:34 who wants to test our home-built 8088 computer? 00:47:44 http://cutr.pl/dd54681099 <- the core :D 00:51:38 I would, if I understood it. 00:51:48 I'm going to be like Dickens, and release my terrible novels in serial form. 00:52:01 Here I present the first instalment of A Device Lost, a Bjorn tale! 00:52:02 http://filebin.ca/rhgbku/bjorn.pdf 00:52:27 Note: Bjorn has Infinite Personality Disorder. 00:53:26 alise: it's almost like oooold IBM PC 00:53:43 Bjorn would never use a computer he couldn't eat. 00:53:44 and that was the actual photo of working processor 00:54:01 ah 00:54:15 ah, disorder, i see 00:55:13 ;P 01:04:21 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 01:07:39 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:25:46 -!- augur has joined. 01:29:50 http://cutr.pl/5cffb3360e behold 01:44:33 http://i.imgur.com/NtXHf.png 01:56:29 :| 01:56:58 http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif 01:56:59 if i was to build a lisp machine 01:57:15 it would probably look exactly like QED 01:58:46 oh 01:59:34 Gregor: would you like to test this lovely bunch of ICs and wires? 02:00:02 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 02:00:09 CAN I TEST IT WITH MY TONGUE? 02:00:23 no, but you can ssh the maintenance machine 02:00:34 and PROGRAM it 02:00:38 OMG 02:00:43 PROGRAM IT WITH CODEZ 02:00:55 or just check out early code samples 02:01:16 or just check out motd 02:01:35 or just check out 02:01:38 or just check 02:01:41 or just 02:01:42 or 02:01:44 02:03:04 anyway 02:05:10 ³ 02:07:59 if i was to build a lisp machine 02:07:59 it would probably look exactly like QED 02:08:01 which sense of QED? 02:09:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:09:13 QED is the name of that 8088 computer i showed you 02:09:19 Quantum Explosion Dynamp 02:09:21 Dynamo 02:16:17 11:59:59 Haskell doesn't suck. 02:16:19 SO WRONG. 02:18:35 12:23:05 Gregor-P: re recursiveC: DOUBLE COMPILE. (reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w and related) 02:18:41 Gosh. It's compiled twice. 02:19:29 wtf 02:20:32 recursiveC? 02:21:57 See http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.08.02. 02:22:19 RecursiveC is a hypothetical C-based language with "static" parts that are bits of C code that output C which replaces the original code. Run those static bits over and over 'til you reach fixed-point, then voila! You could implement OO in header files :P 02:23:26 PHP? 02:24:08 ... huh? 02:25:07 nothing :D 02:26:40 PHP is a dangerous drug. 02:27:13 i hate it 02:32:29 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cwep1/the_neverending_finite_loop/c0vt9vf?context=4 02:32:34 Badum-tish 02:38:32 Infi-Loop I always use... 02:38:33 x = 1; 02:38:33 while(x > 0) { if (x < 2) x++; else x--; } 02:38:33 --reddit 02:38:38 This person has never even considered while(1). 02:44:49 Surely that poster was joking? 02:49:17 I hope so. 02:51:30 I have to be up in a bit less than 6 hours. 02:51:33 I should bed soon. 02:52:42 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:07:54 -!- comex has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:09:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:09:38 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 03:09:54 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 03:10:53 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:18:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:19:03 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:36:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:36:28 Goodnight. 03:36:33 Goodday. 03:36:36 Bye. 03:36:38 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:38:33 I want to design a font using METAFONT (once I figure out how; neither this channel nor the #LaTeX channel was of much help), http://sprunge.us/OiNh is that a good encoding of list of chaacters to be included? 03:39:08 I don't exactly know how some of these should look though 03:39:33 -!- cal153 has joined. 03:39:56 That is, other than a few obvious ones, which might be taken from Computer Modern and then changed a bit 03:40:06 -!- comex has joined. 03:40:31 If there is blackboard bold, does that mean somebody will invent whiteboard bold? 03:40:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:40:50 OK 03:41:16 All of Unicode. 03:41:18 And do it well. 03:41:26 I especially don't know the control graphics 03:42:01 pikhq: I can't do all of unicode, that is a lot. I only want a subset, which might however include some things that are not part of unicode 03:43:00 (I don't know if unicode has Greek blackboard bold, for one thing, and I don't know if these control graphics would be the same as unicode, my idea was using some special symbols to represent these control graphics instead of the way unicode does it) 03:43:46 If you might have noticed or not, the control graphic numbers are the same as the lowercase letters for those codes in a C program, for the ones that are usable in C strings. 03:44:10 ('\e' is GNU C only, but I included it so that it can be used with GNU C) 03:45:40 Some of the things in WEBMATH are already included in AMS, but I want one usable with Plain TeX and only one font for all the extra stuff 03:46:43 How many codes does Unicode have these days, anyways? 03:48:16 Tons. 03:48:34 But how many? One million? 03:48:38 Some 75% of it is Han Unified Ideographs... 03:48:50 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 03:48:59 107,361 as of October 2009. 03:49:07 OK 03:49:08 * SgeoN1 is going to eat his first hamburger soon 03:49:21 SgeoN1: ... Your *first* hamburger? 03:49:28 My dad says I've eaten hamburgers before, but I don't remember 03:49:31 And you're in... America. 03:49:35 SgeoN1: When are you going to eat your first "burgerham"? 03:49:52 My dad has been paranoid about mad cow disease 03:49:55 uh, what? 03:50:05 OK, now I understand (I think) 03:50:05 Unicode has 246,943 assigned codes 03:50:42 coppro: When do you ever think it will reach one million if it ever does? 03:50:57 Also, it's not going to be in hamburger buns, just slices of bread ;( 03:51:06 Erm, :( 03:51:14 Sgeo: Tell us EVERY DETAIL of your FIRST HAMBURGER EVAR 03:51:19 SgeoN1: How do you *avoid* eating hamburgers in the USA? 03:51:20 zzo38: long time 03:51:40 This is a bit like avoiding seeing a fat person. 03:52:34 Freenode whois doesn't tell you which server someone's on, just which server location you're on 03:53:00 you're on jordan.freenode.net in france. hth. 03:53:37 What I wanted to do is make a WEBMATH font (I might need help in many different ways), and then add a option in the next version of Enhanced CWEB to make it use this font, and then instead of overtyping the \ and n on each other it can use the TYPEWRITER CONTROL GRAPHIC NEW LINE OR LINE FEED character from the WEBMATH font. 03:53:43 oerjan: huh 03:53:48 maybe seven doesn't have that feature 03:54:01 yeah that was about when it changed 03:54:06 The WHOIS does tell you. 03:54:27 On the 312 line. 03:54:35 zzo38: yes, but for a while (probably on the old ircd) it would always reply with the server you were on, not the server the target of the request was on 03:54:48 coppro: Well, it works now (at least for me) 03:54:52 yeah, me too 03:55:21 pikhq: also, CJK ideographs fall just short of 75% 03:55:24 i vaguely recall it replied with irc.freenode.net for a while 03:55:36 coppro: Aaaaw. 03:55:51 coppro: Throw in kana and bopomofo, and what do you get? :P 03:56:16 probably 75% :D 03:56:24 I posted this as my Facebook status: "I'm unhappy that UTF-8 can't be extended indefinitely. Eight-byte UTF-8 wouldn't break too many invariants, since the value 255 never appears in conforming standard UTF-8, but nine-byte UTF-8 would almost unavoidably create ambiguities with two-byte UTF-8 :(. 42 payload bits is NOT ENOUGH. When we have to tell our new alien overlords that we can't fit their language into our encoding sch 03:56:24 eme, they're gonna be PISSED." 03:56:27 Two people have "liked" it. 03:56:34 I'm quite sure that neither of them have any idea wtf I'm talking about :P 03:56:35 There are according to wikipedia 74384 ideographs and 107361 characters 03:56:54 Gregor: extending UTF-8 is easily done 03:57:12 To eight bytes, yes. To nine bytes, no. 03:58:01 oh, you care about the invariants 03:58:06 right, yeah, you're stuck at 7 03:58:18 Gregor: Nine bytes is a TRIVIAL extension. We deprecate UTF-8 and move on to UTF-G_64. 03:58:21 Well, yeah. If we're gonna break all the invariants, what's the point :P 03:58:30 >:D 03:58:40 actually, nah, it's easy 03:58:59 0b11111111 says that the next byte says how many more bytes are part of the same character :D 03:59:09 (and they all start with 0b10 03:59:38 That way you can extend to more than nine bytes, then. 03:59:58 and 0 means to look again 04:00:07 at the next 2 bytes 04:00:09 yeah 04:00:16 you can run the sequence up indefinitely 04:00:20 coppro: Hmmmm, you've stuffed another layer of encoding into UTF-8, awesome X-d 04:00:22 *X-D 04:02:57 In the 7-bit WEBMATH I don't have anything in 0x6D 0x6F 0x70 0x71, and in 8-bit I don't have anything in the high codes, but if you can make suggestion I can write it in 04:03:55 Or if anything I already have duplicates Computer Modern, I should also change it 04:04:15 WEBMATH? 04:05:28 cpressey, I thought lament's real name was Nikita something? 04:05:33 coppro: I want to invent a font called WEBMATH and can be used in TeX and METAFONT 04:05:34 http://sprunge.us/OiNh 04:05:44 famous hot russian female: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-B0628-0015-035,_Nikita_S._Chruchstschow.jpg 04:05:55 There is the list, you can see some spaces are not filled in yet 04:07:14 how do you use a font in METAFONT 04:07:18 (I know some of the characters duplicate ones in AMS, but I want this to be able to be used without AMS) 04:07:28 also, I do not support this project 04:07:46 coppro: You can write the codes for it, and then write other codes to make it load into TeX and other programs 04:07:54 That is how you use a font in METAFONT. 04:07:57 fonts that do not respect Unicode should be shot 04:08:16 It was eh 04:08:36 coppro: That makes sense in most cases to use Unicode fonts, but TeX isn't Unicode based, so instead we put 256 characters in one font 04:09:06 why aren't you using iTeX yet? 04:09:19 iTeX? 04:10:09 coppro's method seems like it would be rather big 04:10:23 I don't want to use iTeX, I want to use Plain TeX 04:10:25 i think by the time you get up to 9 bytes another encoding method would be preferable for efficiency reasons 04:10:49 myndzi: THINK OF THE CHILDREN 04:10:52 ..on the other hand, if you're using 9 bytes to represent one character, i guess another byte is having less of an effect at that point than it would be if you were using only two 04:13:27 zzo38: XeTeX is Unicode based. Suck it. 04:14:12 I looked at the iTeX description, and it completely makes nonsense! 04:14:39 pikhq: Can XeTeX work with Plain TeX? 04:14:49 Yes. 04:15:49 What differences does XeTeX have from normal TeX? 04:17:00 It uses Unicode as its encoding, it supports OpenType fonts directly, and it outputs to PDF. 04:18:44 pikhq: Then that means I can't use DVI with it? 04:18:58 Does it also mean METAFONT can't be used with it? 04:19:33 It also supports METAFONT. 04:19:37 It doesn't do DVI. 04:19:42 DVI is an archaicism, anyways. 04:21:56 I think I still prefer the normal TeX system. 04:22:29 What does LaTex use? Does it fit over any of these.. thingies, or is it TeX-only? 04:22:59 btw, if you haven't seen, it, you need to watch http://river-valley.tv/media/conferences/tug-2010/Don-Knuth/ 04:23:48 Wikipedia article for XeTeX says it uses LaTeX 04:24:35 I learned some things about METAFONT, I think it is not a bad program for designing fonts, however I cannot get it to work 04:24:36 * Sgeo is now 20 different types of confused 04:24:46 Soon I'll be confused tracking all the ways I'm confused! 04:24:47 Sgeo: LaTeX is a set of macros for TeX. 04:32:35 * Sgeo terminally fails at references 04:32:42 One thing I like about Plain TeX opposed to LaTeX, is that in Plain TeX I can run "tex" only once and still have all cross-references and everything correct, with no auxiliary files. 04:42:08 well, I like Plain Text. 04:43:38 Why did they make LaTeX require multiple passes and a separate program to make index, and so on? 04:46:27 What do I need to make METAFONT work on MiKTeX? 04:47:19 have you watched the video yet? 04:47:56 The video won't play 04:48:05 :( 04:48:16 I think it's Flash 05:11:37 I got METAFONT to work now, but it still doesn't work in interactive mode? 05:13:12 Can fonts with METAFONT be converted to other formats, in case some other programg uses other formats? 05:18:50 It's possible to make ePub files by hand! 05:18:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:19:08 Of course, I won't, but I will attempt to make an automated epub creator for Agoran Rulesets 05:19:22 Can ePubs reference other books? I doubt it, but that would be awesome for the Agoran stuff 05:19:33 Crosslinks between CFJs and the FLR 05:20:20 "If your book is in the HTML format, you can use Book Glutton to convert it to ePub" 05:20:46 better idea 05:20:51 let's make a SVG version 05:21:05 that way we can make it as small as we want it ;) 05:21:20 ePub will be very useful to me soon 05:21:30 why? 05:21:50 Getting an eReader soon hopefully 05:21:52 ah 05:22:20 Hmm, def. want custom thing for the FLR... there's a Table of Contents thing in the spec, apparently 05:22:23 (I find it funny that we as a people are now starting to move away from PDF because it does exactly what it was designed to do) 05:26:29 BookGlutton costs $5 :( 05:26:31 No ty 05:27:36 Hmm, if I got a Nook, would I be able to have it automatically retrieve the latest version of the ePub somehow? 05:28:48 * Sgeo vaguely wonders how far back RTRR goes 05:28:55 1 ePub for each RTRR! 05:37:41 When was coppro playing Mafia? 05:37:51 With people I don't recognize? 05:37:55 huh? 05:38:09 Found a text file wolfgame.txt 05:38:12 Looks like an IRC log 05:38:22 Hmm, by that name, I guess you call it Werewolves 05:38:36 where? 05:38:56 I have no idea 05:39:08 I can list names of the participants though 05:39:24 how can you have found a file but not know where you found it? 05:39:24 modargo, Narrator, Crispy-, coppro, Coboney, Leecifer 05:39:29 oh! 05:39:35 that was #wolf of EFNet 05:39:52 Most importantly: Why do I have a log of this? 05:40:08 It was in my Downloads folder... 05:40:42 maybe I linked it? 05:41:00 can you send me a copy? Maybe there is something special about it 05:42:20 Erm, email it to you? 05:42:37 sure 05:44:01 Sent 05:44:23 PDF has too many stupid features in my opinion 05:44:50 thanks 05:44:53 hm... I remember that game 05:44:58 nothing particularly remarkable about it 05:45:23 no clue why you'd have a log 05:47:07 Plain TeX is much more better than LaTeX why don't you believe it? 05:47:58 * Sgeo just wants to make epubs 05:49:17 What is epubs? 05:49:53 A file format usable by most ereaders 05:49:57 *epub 05:50:33 Hmm, the Map of Agora isn't exactly reflowable 05:51:14 How does epub work? 05:51:56 *shrugs* 05:53:27 Is it like HTML or like PDF or DVI or like bitmap picture files, or how does it work? 05:55:33 More like HTML than like bitmaps 05:55:52 Very much like HTML, I think, actuallhy 05:56:07 What is its feature support, colors, fonts, printout, etc? 05:57:05 No clue 06:02:34 Perhaps I can make Icoruma->ePub, even, if I want to, or if anyone else wants to write a converter program for Icoruma documents. So, it would be useful if you wanted to write the rules for a role-playing game on ePub 06:11:49 Has anyone implemented any variant of INTERCAL in TeX? 06:25:14 zzo38, what do you have against Python? 06:25:33 Sgeo: I just don't like it much. C is more better in my opinion. 06:26:02 I have nothing against Python, though. 06:26:14 This user is made out of userboxes 06:27:20 Are you looking at my Wikipedia? 06:27:40 Yes 06:28:18 OK 06:28:33 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:28:34 (Feel free to change it if you don't like it; it is a wiki page and anyone can edit it) 06:29:02 Why would I change it? It's a page about you! 06:29:18 Sgeo: Because you found a mistake in it, perhaps? 06:29:48 Or to make improvement? 06:30:09 Is there a userbox for TeX? 06:30:11 I think the only mistake that could be present in a page of userboxes is a syntactical failure to include a userbox properly 06:33:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:35:43 Feel free to add, remove, change, and improve. Just don't deny anyone else these same rights, including the right to distribute and use it. That is all I ask. If you want to call it your own, go ahead. If you want to sell it and earn a lot of money from it, that is OK, too. Just don't deny other people these same rights. 06:37:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:40:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:40:57 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 06:42:18 There is userboxes related to LaTeX, but not for Plain TeX. 06:42:23 Maybe I should add some 07:04:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:21:19 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:54:46 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:23:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 08:43:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:54:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:54:31 -!- augur has joined. 09:14:11 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:31:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:39:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:39:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:50:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:59:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:00:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:10:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:15:05 fungot 10:15:05 Phantom_Hoover: eval ( 4 ( atan 1)) ( if ( equal? ( 3 4))? i 10:15:24 ^style 10:15:24 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 10:16:20 fungot, don't go into programming. 10:16:20 Phantom_Hoover: im no good at it too, fnord... um... 2 lectures or so, which one should i install in /usr/ lib 10:16:38 Yes, exactly. 10:19:02 Also pondering making an epub of all of the CFJs in Murphy's db 10:19:45 * ais523 wonders why you'd want to install a lecture in /usr/lib 10:19:51 INTERCAL object-orientation reference? 10:21:43 Also, considering epub'ing the SLR instead of the FLR 10:24:14 fungot, answer ais' question. 10:24:14 Phantom_Hoover: java isn't too bad.' this is valid. 10:24:35 fungot, well, I'm sure ais would agree... 10:24:47 it's not as bad as people make it out to be 10:25:05 although it's far from the ideal programming language 10:25:16 * Sgeo_ wonders if it might be better to programmatically create DocBook stuff 10:25:28 Since there's an easy DocBook -> EPUB converter 10:28:55 fungot, are you there? 10:29:04 fungot? 10:29:08 FUNGOT! 10:29:54 Phantom_Hoover: fungot has an anti-spam thing, it won't respond to the same person too many times in a row 10:29:55 ais523: like a caged environment for innocent little newbie schemers to keep them in mind :) ttyl i'm going to 10:30:16 I hate you, fungot. 10:30:17 Phantom_Hoover: fnord wanted dialog...... huh......really? oh a net address! oh, the question needs to be 10:30:29 Oh, is that so? 10:35:59 ^style fisher 10:35:59 Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations) 10:36:10 fungot: Maybe you could be a bit more casual there. 10:36:10 fizzie: exactly and and the cases they deal with are usually very depressing 10:38:04 What the hell is npviewer.bin? 10:38:13 * Sgeo_ depresses fungot 10:38:13 Sgeo_: you hit on a really like annoying cliff hanger like not like you go to the next place and then the 10:38:38 hmm, ingenious 10:38:43 Well, we know fungot is a teen girl 10:38:43 Sgeo_: you know i'm making dinner table or something you know and and 10:38:47 a sentence talking about a really annoying cliff hanger 10:38:58 and then stopping just before it explains what the cliff hanger is 10:39:27 I think that's the fungot version of "how do you keep an idiot in suspense?" 10:39:27 ais523: ( ( fitness and health)) i've ( ( wanted)) to talk to you again laughter but be careful seriously oh that's wonderful 10:39:29 [ Directed by M. Night Shyamalan ] 10:40:41 npviewer.bin is usually Flash. 10:40:50 It's a "Netscape Plugin", after all. 10:41:33 (I think it's nspluginwrapper's thing around the 32-bit Flash on a x86-64 system.) 10:42:11 -!- tombom has joined. 10:49:50 fizzie, OK. 10:52:15 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:52:59 -!- tombom has joined. 11:03:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:03:32 -!- augur has joined. 11:16:34 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:27:10 how does fungot work? it takes sentences from the logs? 11:27:10 nooga: it just seems like you know like 11:30:04 nooga: it has a bunch of data; IRC logs is its current data source 11:30:09 but you can set it to other things too 11:30:11 ^style agora 11:30:11 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 11:30:28 see, now it's drawing from current and historical rulesets of Agora 11:30:31 fungot: say something 11:30:31 ais523: a frankenstein monster, and the minimum hand size shall be four classes of cards exist than its own content, and 11:30:45 and it looks for common words at different places in the data source 11:30:56 and jumps from bit to bit as long as there are words in common 11:31:01 so the result makes sense locally, but not globally 11:31:35 IIRC it was optbot which quoted random literal lines from logs, rather than merging many together like fungot does 11:31:35 ais523: but after taking all other rules, or 11:32:19 nooga: is that a clear enough explanation? 11:41:57 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:43:40 -!- distant_figure has joined. 11:43:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:43:56 -!- augur has joined. 11:44:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 12:05:51 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:07:11 Wow, Emacs removed all of their yows but one for copyright reason, 12:07:17 s/,/s/ 12:07:39 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:12:37 -!- dbc has joined. 12:23:52 -!- derdon has joined. 12:24:13 hmm, I'm beginning to think that this department has trouble tracking personell 12:24:16 *personnel 12:24:21 first, they seem to forget I exist 12:24:40 now, we get an email saying "if you notice someone new working in your office, send round an email to introduce them" 12:30:04 -!- nooga has joined. 12:31:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:31:59 -!- augur has joined. 12:44:51 wow, after randomly browsing reddit, I just had a really evil idea 12:45:10 what you do is, you decide that you want a class that contains, say, run() and eval() methods 12:45:31 so, you get your OO language (say Java) to load every class it can access, and inspect it to see if it has those methods 12:45:39 and if it does, you instantiate it and then run the methods 12:45:45 what could possibly go wrong? 12:45:55 (Bonus: this is actually how object orientation works in CLC-INTERCAL) 12:46:19 (although at least it checks whether there's only one appropriate class, first) 12:50:42 Can you sensibly enumerate classes in Java, though? Reflection via a ClassLoader lets you look things up by name, but I'm unsure about listing them. 12:51:12 just try all possible legal identifiers in sequence 12:51:30 Ah, the brute-force method. 12:52:31 alternatively, you could use a bit of knowledge about how the default ClassLoader works, and just look through the entire filesystem to get the names of things that could be potentially loaded 12:52:33 and use those 12:53:47 I remember looking for a "list all classes you so far know about" method in java.lang.Package, but there wasn't any; even though there's a static java.lang.Package.getPackages() which asks the ClassLoader to list all packages it has seen. 12:58:44 The AI competition game GUI app looks for all .jar files in the current directory and its immediate subdirectories; for each .jar it peeks at the manifest for metadata that indicates a bot. I didn't really want people to have to fiddle with classpaths or so if they wanted to try out a bot-.jar they had. 13:10:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:14:24 Speaking of fungot, the explanation up there is conceptually speaking feasible, although if you want to pick some nits, technically speaking it's not "jumping from bit to bit", but instead it collects frequency counts for all n-tuples of consecutive words (where n is about 3 or 4 or so), and then just decides next word randomly based on the frequencies of all (say) 4-tuples where first three words match the current context. 13:14:24 fizzie: " first-class person becomes a registered player, by announcing that e insists. a player is ineligible to 13:16:56 yep, it comes to the same thing, but it's a rather different implementation from what I suggested 13:18:01 Of course everyone can just take a peek at the sources to immediately see the implementation strategy. 13:18:34 I think there's even a comment in there. 13:19:04 Hmn, it seems that the comment simply says "pickword:", which might be a bit ambiguous. 13:23:40 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 13:28:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:28:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:49:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 13:50:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:51:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:52:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:55:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:56:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:01:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:16:32 -!- mquin has quit (Quit: Changing server). 14:17:58 -!- mquin has joined. 14:55:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:58:36 -!- Ilari has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:58:37 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has changed nick to Ilari. 15:04:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:10:26 -!- Ilari_ has joined. 15:19:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:21:04 -!- Ilari has changed nick to Ilari_antrcomp. 15:21:04 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari. 15:22:50 -!- relet has joined. 15:31:50 -!- cpressey has joined. 16:04:31 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:06:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:43:03 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:04:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:06:40 Nothing is happening. fungot, rectify this. 17:06:40 Phantom_Hoover: any order issued, the date of the period of 17:06:55 Who made his style boring? 17:09:16 ais523 is the one who agorafied him. 17:09:19 ^style europarl 17:09:19 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 17:09:33 fungot: Now you're the definition of excitement and unborigness. 17:09:35 fizzie: the impressive number of projects in the energy efficiency measures have not halted, still less for commercial or economic reasons. veritable ' dictatorship' by the stock exchange lists of all european agriculture systems and not just for those in financial difficulty. we hope that, because trafficking in human beings 17:10:34 fungot: Who's trafficking in human beings? Is this some sort of preliminary stage of the coming robot revolution? 17:10:35 fizzie: mr president, first i should like to thank the commissioner for the attention they are given recognition on this level. we welcome the consideration of environmental integration than on other reform aspects. we are not the guilty party. for those engaging in these activities are carried on in denmark, as jens-peter bonde emphasised, and other elements as well. 17:11:02 He sounds *just* like a politician this way. 17:14:36 -!- cal153 has joined. 17:15:44 fungot, what activities are carried out in Denmark? 17:15:47 Phantom_Hoover: i declined to vote in favour of the proposal on biofuels, which i cannot accept amendments nos 11, 15, 26, 28, 33, 36 to 43 and, in accordance with the compromise that we reached, fortunately, we were discussing a different proposal and this report, and a rights guarantee system. we will not be the case but they must be built upon in vienna, so that we can avoid a number of consumer protection and to preserving 17:17:03 the danish human trafficking, obviously 17:17:12 fungot: Is something rotten in the state of Denmark? 17:17:14 fizzie: mr president, i would add the injury of indifference to the well-being of patients suffering from inherited diseases have been told here that national legislation on pay, and those that follow will help us to ensure that there is room for the benefit of the alcohol market is satisfactorily addressed by this proposal for codecision is the result of the way there. turning to another important european union decision: enla 17:19:09 fungot, what about enla? 17:19:10 si.zb: mr president, commissioner, the aid procedure. my concern, personally, i believe, on the basis of the international conventions, needs for protection and family reunification. 17:19:31 Ooh, you met a bug. 17:19:57 fizzie, no, that's my true name 17:20:11 Oh, okay; then it's just the usual clairvoyancy thing. 17:20:14 It isn't part of any mortal character encoding. 17:22:27 "93 9f 97 84 82 95 9b 8b 99 73 98 69 8d 9a 9e 2e 7a 92 88 91 8c 62"; that's not a very obvious sequence of bytes. 17:23:57 fungot, so, what else do you know? 17:23:57 Phantom_Hoover: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i would like to congratulate mr blokland on the classification of european export shares to asia as a proportion of publicly financed social and economic difficulties there, its crisis of political confidence and its restrictions of democratic freedom, which only brings together members of the new millennium 17:25:45 All hail Mr. Blokland; sounds like a LEGO thing. 17:25:56 another danish scheme 17:26:29 financing asian social and economic difficulties 17:27:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 17:27:58 -!- cpressey has joined. 17:27:59 fungot, what are Denmark planning? 17:28:00 Phantom_Hoover_: in its short justification, the committee on budgetary control, we should be penalising employers who shamelessly exploit immigrants who have no desire to hand over the issue of comitology. i welcome the fact that all this may bring to bear on those principally responsible for the 500 000 protesters were perfectly aware of the problem demands that we close our eyes to the facts. 17:29:43 i note that the fnords are not visible in this style - clearly this shows that this _is_ an illuminati plot 17:30:16 or well, several 17:30:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:31:07 A confluence of illuminati ploti? 17:31:51 CONFLVENTIA PLOTORVM ILLVMINATORVM 17:47:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 17:47:37 oerjan, isn't -orum singular genitive? 17:47:48 Or perhaps dative... 17:47:59 no, plural 17:49:36 'k 17:55:52 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 18:04:16 OK, so I have a parser for Eightebed done, and the beginnings of a type checker. I just need to finish that, extend it to do simple validity analysis, write the translator (to C), and write the runtime for the translated code (in C)... 18:06:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:07:58 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:09:27 -!- yiyus has joined. 18:09:27 CPS is very similar to the standard x86 calling convention... 18:09:51 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:09:55 Phantom_Hoover: ? The standard x86 calling convention uses the stack IIRC... 18:10:59 Well, it uses an address rather than a continuation, of course. 18:11:55 cactus stack obv 18:12:31 Phantom_Hoover: Actually, it's more that *call stacks* are very similar to CPS. 18:12:34 :) 18:12:49 pikhq, "similar" is commutative, isn't it? 18:12:56 Call stacks are crippled continuations 18:13:04 cpressey, that was my point. 18:15:10 cpressey: Except when you add stronger stack manipulation. 18:15:45 (in particular things like stack-swapping coroutines...) 18:17:23 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 18:23:47 Granted. But I would say even the fanciest stack arrangement limits the power of continuations. 18:27:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 18:28:25 cpressey: Not really. One can use each stack as a continuation. :P 18:29:11 (this is most useful for the setup provided by getcontext et al, where each new stack has, at its bottom, the start of a function that will jump to a different stack...) 18:29:51 pikhq: OK, fine. Two stacks and you have a Turing tape anyway, right. 18:30:10 Correct. 18:30:16 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:31:14 But then if you have a Turing machine, who needs functions or continuations anyway? See, this is not at all what I was getting at... 18:31:44 -!- nooga has joined. 18:32:13 :P 18:36:33 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:36:42 Moo 18:56:21 I see the Python debugger is just as much a debugger as all other debuggers. 18:56:25 (Bugger!) 19:01:42 How do you do the empty set in TeX? 19:01:50 Or union, for that matter. 19:03:25 \emptyset, \cup or \bigcup . iirc. 19:04:22 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:04:35 I think it is $\emptyset$ for empty set symbol in TeX? 19:05:05 (I don't know if it is different for LaTeX, or for AMS-LaTeX) 19:05:46 I checked now, it is $\emptyset$ 19:08:30 Wait, what's the difference between $\emptyset$ and \emptyset ? 19:08:43 If you are not in math mode you have to enter math mode first 19:09:14 Otherwise you would normally use it inside of a mathematical equation, so put $ around the entire equation instead of only around the \emptyset part 19:11:15 "many people prefer the look of AMS's \varnothing ... to that of LaTeX's \emptyset. 19:11:18 " 19:11:36 I suppose if you are using AMS you can use \varnothing instead 19:11:57 (from http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-a4.pdf which is _too_ comprehensive, took me ages to find the last one) 19:14:13 I have idea to add a few additional commands into TeX \rawread \rawwrite \boxpush \boxpop \boxenqueue \boxdequeue \tokpush \tokpop \tokenqueue \tokdequeue 19:15:05 that document seems to use LaTeX2e as the lowest common denominator, so nothing about just TeX specified 19:16:36 AMSTeX is the only TeX that matters 19:16:42 (Just trying to start a fight) 19:17:05 cpressey: I don't think so, there are many kinds that are used, they all matter 19:17:41 I don't care about TeX - I just want a sed that handles UTF-8 properly 19:18:03 cpressey: O, perhaps you can modify sed to do that, if you want it like that? 19:18:26 I'd sooner write a Perl script to do the replacements for me 19:18:54 Or Python, considering I have an idea of how Python's Unicode support works, but know nothing about Perl;s. 19:20:23 Wait, it does. I was just writing a bad regexp previously. Heheh. 19:20:42 Phantom_Hoover: http://omega.albany.edu:8008/Symbols.html is a bit more maintainable :D 19:20:55 Why the :8008? 19:21:03 Could they not get 80 19:21:09 s/$/?/ 19:21:20 cpressey: My sed doesn't handle UTF-8 properly in the sense that it'd understand multibyte sequences to be one character, but you can still do some simple operations even while it just thinks as sequences of bytes. 19:21:28 how the heck should i know, i just googled "tex symbols" 19:22:41 Wait, sed at home actually seems to be locale-aware. Freaky! It must've been some other sed that didn't do it right. (Or maybe I, too, wrote a bad regexp.) 19:22:41 Phantom_Hoover: the date "11 Jan 95" _could_ be a hint 19:23:29 "echo ä | sed -e 's/./x/'" => "x"; "echo ä | LC_CTYPE=C sed -e 's/./x/'" => "x¤". It certainly does locale-specificity. 19:23:38 The union of any set with the empty set is equal to the original set, isn't it? 19:23:50 yes 19:24:46 love the favicon on that page 19:24:51 Phantom_Hoover: also, \cup is used as a binary operator, while \bigcup is generally used for indexed stuff, like the sigma sum symbol 19:25:12 More addition commands into TeX \pushmode \popmode \undefhandler 19:25:24 it's like + vs. \sum 19:28:34 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:29:53 -!- nooga has joined. 19:30:28 Phantom_Hoover: incidentally with the table called "delimiters" iirc you can put \left or \right commands before some of them to make them expand in size. e.g. matrices can be put between \left[ and \right] 19:30:51 Even more additional commands into TeX \foreach \alltolerate \readglue \readmuglue \processglue \processmuglue 19:31:51 glue? 19:32:12 \notolerate \krystalnacht \myhead 19:32:18 cpressey: Do you use TeX? 19:32:34 or you could use \left( and \right) as parentheses if your formula is so big the usual ones become awkward 19:32:34 Gregor-P: And what would \krystalnacht and \myhead mean? 19:32:54 zzo38: I tried using LaTeX, once, years ago. Safe to say I've forgotten almost everything about it. 19:33:22 *kristallnacht 19:34:04 oerjan: Thanks, I knew that was all wrong but can't check on my phone :P 19:34:16 cpressey: Maybe in LaTeX you don't need to deal with glue. But Plain TeX uses glue values, which means the natural length, as well as how much it is allowed to be shrink and how much it is allowed to be long, for inserting spaces, such as spaces between words in lines of paragraph text. 19:34:58 This must be why I've never "progressed beyond" HTML. 19:35:00 -!- jcp has joined. 19:35:44 zzo38: LaTeX has various length designations, some expandable, some not 19:36:02 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:36:20 cpressey: Perhaps you could try using TeX for some thing one time, I use it and it works. 19:36:48 (And if you want to type the rules of a role playing game, you might use Icoruma and then compile Icoruma files into other formats, such as TeX and HTML) 19:37:14 -!- jcp has quit (Client Quit). 19:37:45 Um, 19:38:01 -!- jcp has joined. 19:38:30 (Although I prefer Plain TeX, but different people might prefer LaTeX or other packages) 19:38:43 zzo38's wikipedia user page just ate my brain 19:39:04 zzo38: i suspect most non-programmers will find TeX to require too much handling of details 19:39:12 cpressey: O NO I DIDN'T KNOW WIKIPEDIA PAGES HAS TO EAT!! 19:39:13 *plain TeX 19:39:22 Wikipedia pages don't have to eat 19:39:43 Only the people that write it has to eat. (But not necessarily eating the pages!) 19:41:21 oerjan: Yes, you are probably right. But the programming that can be done in TeX is what makes it good idea in my opinion! 19:41:26 zzo38: You are so totally one of those grey aliens pretending to be a human, aren't you? 19:42:03 cpressey: No, I don't think so, not as far as I know, anyways. 19:42:28 * cpressey wants to believe 19:42:33 >_> 19:42:51 I am one of those humans that perhaps it is not meant to be humans but is instead supposted to be some kind of weird monsters that actually doesn't exist and nobody knows nothing about, not even me. 19:42:57 But this is also doubtful. 19:43:10 cpressey: OK, believe what you want to believe either way 19:43:21 (But I am warning you!) 19:43:44 Warning duly noted. Constraining belief systems, please wait... 19:44:07 oh ye of little faith 19:50:17 My Wikipedia userpage mentions rotary telephones, I still use them (I use touchtone as well), but I also use phone that must be pulsed manually, which is the easiest kind to build. 19:50:29 cpressey, zzo38 is another result of the Device. 19:50:34 Because is simple and uses less component of others 19:50:57 Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, what Device do you mean? I don't know. 19:51:09 zzo38, yes, the Device tends to cause that. 19:51:14 Don't worry about it. 19:51:25 Really surprised that there are any phone companies in NA that still support pulse dialing. 19:51:36 NA? 19:51:47 Was just reading an article about technologies going "obsolete", by concidence 19:51:49 north america, presumably 19:52:25 One of the technologies on this list is the "Computer Mouse" 19:52:27 I think everyone should still continue to support pulse dialing 19:53:07 So that anyone can build a telephone from just a few wires and it will work 19:53:14 zzo38: do you think everyone should continue to support unsliced bread? 19:54:46 ais523: Yes, I think you can, however you can make it at home baking it, so you don't need to have it commonly available at the store if you do not want to 19:55:01 I think DIP packaging should be banned. Only surface-mount packaging should be manufactured. This will make it much, much harder for pesky individual hobbyists to experiment with electronics. 19:55:51 cpressey: I think both DIP packaging and surface-mount should be remain available. 19:56:29 Also, facetiousness should be punishable by being beaten with a sausage. 19:56:49 cpressey: What is the purpose of that? 19:57:13 my first degree was in electronic engineering 19:57:21 and surface mount is entirely possible to handle, just more annoying 19:57:38 besides, call me back when you invent surface mount wire 19:57:46 ais523: Which is why both ways should remain available. 20:04:02 Sure, it are possible, but if only SM was available, I would probably choose something like kite-building over electronics as a hobby. 20:04:11 Sure, it are! 20:05:01 There's something I'm missing though, about hobbies I mean, but that's a different subject. 20:05:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 20:09:38 * Sgeo_ kisses Google 20:18:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:18:08 Sgeo_, why? 20:18:27 I had a problem. Google had the solution 20:18:40 BRB 20:25:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:26:40 -!- AnMaster has joined. 20:31:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:34:26 Well, now I'm having a different 20:34:29 different problem 20:34:34 And finding no solutions :( 20:38:30 There's RDP support in Ubuntu, right? 20:41:38 RDP? 20:41:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:42:07 Remote Desktop Protocol? 20:42:39 System>Preferences>Remote Desktop 20:43:37 Applications>Internet>Remote Desktop Viewer? 20:44:20 I'm not in Ubuntu right now 20:44:23 I'm on Windows 20:46:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:50:25 There has to be a better way 20:50:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Raptor Defense Protocol). 20:51:19 RAPTORS! 20:51:24 Ready the Device! 20:54:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:54:52 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 20:55:03 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 20:57:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:57:30 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 20:57:45 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 21:01:15 -!- deathmoniac has joined. 21:06:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:10:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:29:25 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:30:15 Googling for Icoruma is an adventure! 21:34:31 -!- jcp has joined. 21:37:22 http://jyte.com/cl/i-have-used-at-least-10-different-programming-languages 21:38:16 I just counted -- I've used 18 "for serious". Counting Visual Basic, 8-bit Microsoft BASIC, and Business BASIC as different languages, and x86 and 6502 as different too. 21:38:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:39:28 I can't count, like, Forth or Prolog, because I've just never gotten very serious with them. 21:44:09 I have used 0 programming languages, then. 21:45:05 Phantom_Hoover: Not even school projects? That you've enjoyed? I've done a school project in Prolog, and if I had enjoyed it, I would have included it... 21:45:14 It was kind of meh though. 21:45:42 cpressey, I have whined endlessly about how terrible my school's computing course was. 21:45:46 Prolog is an excellent tool for expressing logical relations. A programming language -- not so much. 21:45:59 Phantom_Hoover: OK, ok. 21:46:15 I like Prolog, though. 21:48:19 Phantom_Hoover: Write something you care about in it, and you could raise that 0 to a 1. (Just sayin'.) 21:48:42 Oh, I've written things I care about before. 21:48:58 But not in a way that you'd consider "for serious"? 21:49:08 Well, they were all for my own amusement. 21:50:03 http://jyte.com/cl/i-have-used-at-least-10-different-programming-languages <-- what is jyte? 21:50:08 Well, I'm not really using that as a criteria. Almost everything I've written in Haskell or 6502 assembly has been for my own amusement. 21:50:29 AnMaster: It came up during my google search for Icoruma. 21:50:39 cpressey, what is icoruma? 21:51:08 (1:36:24 PM) zzo38: (And if you want to type the rules of a role playing game, you might use Icoruma and then compile Icoruma files into other formats, such as TeX and HTML) 21:51:28 cpressey, define serious btw. 21:51:37 AnMaster: No. 21:51:41 cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH 21:51:46 It's intentionally vague 21:52:21 AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. 21:52:41 Phantom_Hoover, har har 21:53:03 zzo38: fungot 2.0 21:53:04 Phantom_Hoover: mr president, commissioner, this is one of numerous documents which we ourselves have done in which you are facing up to the year 2012. 21:53:20 fungot, AHA, so 2012 is involved too? 21:53:21 Phantom_Hoover: mr president, as several speakers have drawn attention to the needs of a european space strategy together with the proposal on the general headquarters of the united nations. 21:53:41 Of course! 21:54:04 The UN are going to destroy the world in 2012 with European orbital weapons! 21:54:08 IT ALL MAKES SENSE 21:58:14 AHA 22:01:16 -!- calamari has joined. 22:01:19 hi 22:02:11 Helloooooo calamari. 22:03:15 hi cpressey 22:07:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:14:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:17:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:19:59 It's the whole gang! 22:22:07 Hm 22:22:16 That's one eBook I can find only in the Kindle store :( 22:29:12 "It's the whole gang"? 22:39:07 Jinkies! 22:46:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:46:45 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 22:47:00 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 22:51:09 Can someone please do a /me in a few seconds? 22:51:30 * cpressey refuses to cooperate with coppro 22:51:39 thanks 22:54:52 coppro, what nefarious deeds are you up to??? 22:55:23 testing my client 22:56:51 Phantom_Hoover, plans for 2012 clearly 2010-08-04: 00:59:35 -!- clog has joined. 00:59:35 -!- clog has joined. 00:59:36 alise: I travel for M:tG tournaments; you never know, I could be in the UK next year 00:59:37 yay clog 00:59:41 coppro, yes or no? 00:59:45 AnMaster: Hungary? :P 00:59:46 (no) 00:59:48 coppro, FAIL 00:59:51 coppro: I bet in London or some other big city. 01:00:01 alise: most likely, yes 01:00:01 coppro, Sweden. See that is why you should include country. Not just state 01:00:08 coppro: Hungry? 01:00:10 If you're not in Newcastle, you're too far away to visit Hexham without making me worry that rape is a serious possibility. 01:00:12 I was joking 01:00:17 :P 01:00:27 coppro, not that I'm in Västerbotten. But I don't want to be more specific than "Sweden" 01:00:35 AnMaster: fair enough 01:01:03 (oddly enough, Ontario is far less specific geographically, but significantly more specific in terms of the number of people it might be 01:01:30 Ontario is bigger than Alberta? 01:01:30 coppro, so lower population density 01:01:39 Oh, are you meaning the area 01:01:40 *area? 01:01:47 Wait. 01:01:49 I was comparing to Sweden 01:01:51 I was confusing Ottawa and Ontario. 01:01:52 Heh. 01:01:58 Now I'm /really/ confused. 01:01:59 Ontario is larger both in area and population than Alberta 01:02:04 Yes. 01:02:13 I thought you meant Ottawa, which I thought was called Ontario because I am confused. 01:02:18 ok 01:02:38 aren't ottawa and ontario both in canada? 01:02:45 Yes. 01:02:46 Yes they are. 01:02:47 olsner: yes 01:02:51 Ottawa is also in Ontario. 01:02:57 Ottawa is the capital of Canada, conveniently located in Ontario 01:02:57 It's almost as if areas of the world are nested. 01:03:07 coppro: but the capital of Ontario is Toronto, isn't it? 01:03:12 now, saying Västerbotten to olsner would be far more successful of course 01:03:14 alise: nested!? woah!! 01:03:16 I believe that is what I read on Wikipedia three seconds ago 01:03:20 Yes, yes it is. 01:03:23 That's not confusing at all. 01:03:29 NOT AT ALL. 01:03:42 AnMaster: I have no idea where that is except it's in sweden, probably up north 01:03:44 wonderful 01:03:46 alise, ^ 01:03:50 alise: right 01:03:55 olsner, hah, but you live in Sweden 01:03:58 coppro: I think Ontario is more populous than Sweden. 01:04:00 olsner, and yes up north somewhere. 01:04:05 also there's Gatineau 01:04:07 which is in Quebec 01:04:08 Indeed. 01:04:13 but is also a part of the National Capital Region 01:04:25 olsner, I suspect I passed through on the sleeper train 01:04:26 Sweden: 9,354,462 01:04:30 if it is along the coast ther is 01:04:32 Ontario: 13,167,894 01:04:58 oh, sweden is small! (what else is new...) 01:05:05 alise: oh, really? 01:05:10 olsner, not by European area standards 01:05:11 olsner's conceptions about the world are being destroyed so badly today 01:05:12 I thought Sweden had more people 01:05:21 by population standards everywhere it is small 01:05:32 coppro: they all moved to finland because finland borders russia, where there are bears 01:05:37 reminding them of where they truly want to be, canada 01:05:41 so in a sense they're all canadian citizens. 01:06:06 olsner, London's population makes up a bit more than 80% of Sweden's population. Yet afaik UK has less area than Sweden 01:06:08 I learned from random old guy (who was also an immigrant from somewhere in africa) that sweden is the third largest country in the EU 01:06:16 but sweden is tiny 01:06:18 (recently) 01:06:23 alise, there are bears in Sweden? 01:06:31 so why would they move 01:07:08 (by "small" I did mean in terms of population though, not in area) 01:07:32 alise, UK is tinier (tinyer?) in area afaik 01:08:33 i cannot speak because i am 01:08:40 olsner: smaller than France, Germany, and Spain? 01:08:49 err, you know what I mean 01:08:55 coppro, easily 01:09:23 okay it's official: I'm an idiot 01:09:36 I really did have libc-2.7.so on my phone.. d'oh 01:09:39 lol 01:09:56 ld-2.7.so worked perfectly 01:10:12 AnMaster: oh, stupid me, I'm bad at sphere projections 01:10:20 coppro: I dunno, I don't dedicate storage for geography so that knowledge has already been purged 01:10:26 coppro, hm? 01:10:57 my geography allocation is 0 too 01:11:09 AnMaster: I was thinking Sweden was significantly smaller due to the fact that spherical projection is hard 01:11:37 uh 01:11:40 okay... 01:12:16 checking my globe, Sweden is definitely longer than any of those countries 01:13:11 I would suspect the area is smaller than France, but could be wrong 01:13:18 due to the not easy to compare shapes 01:13:36 * Sgeo is considering store healthloss per unit time rather than updating HP 01:14:07 which virtual world? 01:14:17 Active Worlds 01:15:02 why do we always end up discussing pointless things (like geography) here? 01:15:11 heh 01:15:31 XD 01:16:00 olsner: Clearly, we should replace the planet with a perfect sphere. 01:16:31 pikhq: clearly, the shape of the planet is irrelevant 01:16:48 And have a constant population density. 01:16:57 pikhq, I 01:17:12 I'd hate to end up living in the sea 01:17:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:17:39 or do you propose a constant water density as well? 01:17:50 AnMaster: Water? On the surface? Who needs it? 01:17:53 pikhq: torus pls 01:17:57 which would mean all sea, or perhaps marshes 01:18:11 olsner: is it not esoteric enough? 01:18:28 AnMaster: or we just amend the law of gravity 01:18:29 pikhq, klein bottle please 01:18:37 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:18:42 coppro: the shape of the planet? well, it's irrelevant! 01:19:17 olsner: you seem to be under the misconception that there exist things too esoteric for this channel 01:19:29 you are sadly mistaken 01:19:57 I think I'm rather arguing there are things too mundane for this channel 01:20:48 Lies. 01:21:54 there are things off topic for this channel that we don't discuss 01:21:59 I can't mention them though 01:22:04 since we would then discuss them 01:22:36 what about the things off topic for this channel that we *do* discuss? 01:22:51 there are far more of those 01:23:24 actually I could mention one example, since it would be meta discussion 01:23:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:23:57 to the extent of my knowledge, we have, prior to this point at least, not have any significant discussion about gardening. 01:24:12 good point 01:24:13 that's just one of many examples 01:24:23 good because it involves gardening 01:24:30 olsner, NO STOP IT! 01:24:41 are there any gardening-related esolangs around? 01:24:45 -_- 01:24:52 okay, now we have 01:25:00 something with search-*trees* and *pruning* perhaps? 01:25:01 I will refuse to mention any more examples 01:25:22 so in fact prolog is gardening-oriented programming 01:25:26 olsner, you now need to pay license fee to oerjan 01:25:57 AnMaster: as if! he's norwegian you know 01:26:10 olsner, oh but your horrible puns... 01:26:49 as always with puns, the horribler the better 01:26:57 agreed 01:27:54 time to stop spewing nonsense and go to sleep anyway 01:27:56 11:11:15 "many people prefer the look of AMS's \varnothing ... to that of LaTeX's \emptyset. 01:27:56 11:11:18 " 01:27:59 many people are wrong 01:28:22 These new earphones are suffering the same issue as all my others ;( 01:29:26 Sgeo, what issue 01:29:36 bad sound quality? 01:29:46 only way to fix that is getting headphones 01:29:47 instead 01:30:03 falling out of ears? again same fix 01:30:36 The wire breaks or something, and the sound only comes out of one ear unless I hold the wire just right 01:31:09 Sgeo, be more careful with them then 01:31:13 or get actual headphones 01:31:21 I had actual headphones once 01:31:21 they tend to have thicker wire 01:31:25 First ones to go 01:31:30 at least good ones 01:31:44 These were noise-cancelling, don't know if that's good 01:31:53 Not the current ones, the good ones 01:32:04 well, could be either 01:32:13 If the cord isn't replacable, it's probably too cheap. 01:32:14 :P 01:32:15 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:32:47 hmm, was just about to spoil inception for y'all, but turns out I deleted that line instead of sending it 01:33:07 pikhq, indeed! 01:33:22 olsner, ? 01:33:40 IT'S ABOUT RECURSION 01:34:33 night → 01:35:07 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 01:47:34 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:48:15 "Not necessarily - lambdas would still be useful without closures." 01:48:20 * Sgeo :p at alise 01:48:30 Yeah, but he's wrong. 02:13:36 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:15:04 ... Lambdas that *don't close*? 02:15:14 That's absolutely awful. 02:15:37 That's about C's level of support for it. 02:18:08 11:53:14 zzo38: do you think everyone should continue to support unsliced bread? 02:18:17 Fresh bread is usually unsliced. 02:18:28 Yes; a freshly baked loaf of bread is fucking delicious if done well. 02:18:36 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Delicious. 02:18:43 Erg, registered nick 02:18:45 -!- Delicious has changed nick to Sgeo. 02:18:54 13:30:15 Googling for Icoruma is an adventure! 02:19:01 if zzo38 says it, look on zzo38computer.cjb.net 02:19:19 Always good advice. 02:19:41 When it says RPG rules, can that apply to computer RPGs? 02:20:10 Ah, no, it' 02:20:17 it's for typesetting RPG stuff, apparently 02:20:25 Also, I hate his website design. 02:20:29 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/magic.htm This is revolting. 02:20:40 n/m 02:20:53 (the menu I'm just fine with; I mean, it's just about plain text. Nothing fancy, but nothing awful either.) 02:25:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:45:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:53:13 Goodnight. 02:58:06 Bye. 02:58:07 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:58:43 pikhq: oh my, it truly is 03:02:14 -!- augur has joined. 03:18:32 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:54:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:58:24 `addquote cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. 03:58:36 205| cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. 04:05:34 NIH? 04:06:33 I think I want to like Ruby 04:07:04 But that's a far cry from actually liking Ruby 04:07:27 coppro: not invented here 04:07:42 ah 04:10:57 * Sgeo considers eating his box of pasta for breakfast instead of dinner 04:12:32 if you eat'a the pasta that fast'a, it won't last'a 04:12:36 Tonight I'll do both 04:14:31 -!- coppro has changed nick to bookmark. 04:15:17 -!- bookmark has changed nick to coppro. 04:15:35 Mrr? 04:15:54 eek, bookmarks in the logs 04:18:37 -!- AndChat| has joined. 04:18:46 Mrrrr? 04:18:56 AndChat| is not me. 04:19:02 I can tell 04:19:20 you don't cloak your host and they aren't close to the same 04:22:20 Well, if we don't know who it is, there's only one solution. 04:22:23 * Gregor cocks his gun. 04:22:25 * Gregor shoots. 04:22:26 -!- AndChat| has quit (Client Quit). 04:22:33 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:22:53 Collateral damage! D-8 04:23:01 * oerjan might now have a slight inkling of clue 04:27:12 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:10:24 proof I am easily amused: I am watching a Futurama where the title caption was "scratch here to reveal prize"... so I did 05:11:00 ... wow. 05:13:09 Note to self: Flush stderr after writing to it 05:13:32 Note to Sgeo; write to file descriptor 2 instead. 05:13:33 :P 05:13:40 hm? 05:15:16 Screw buffered IO. 05:15:17 :P 05:16:30 Sgeo: stderr is not buffered by default; it shouldn't need flushing 05:16:38 Hmm 05:16:46 Then why did it not write? 05:16:54 I redirected stderr to errors.txt 05:17:09 Something happened that should have been written to Console.Error (which should be stderr), and... 05:17:37 oh, what language is this? 05:18:54 C# 05:18:57 lawlz 05:19:10 Yeah, just kill yourself now. 05:19:28 * coppro is with pikhq 05:23:40 Is Gregor ashamed to have recognized that? 05:23:41 Yes he is! 05:23:45 Is Gregor going to rectify this? 05:23:47 No he is not. 05:24:09 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31300809&l=616aba37c8&id=1055580469 Is this the most epic picture ever taken? 05:24:11 Yes it is! 05:24:11 :P 05:24:24 You could pretend that you knew it only because I've been working in C# for the last few months 05:24:46 I knew it only because /I've/ been working in C# for the last few months *sobs* 05:25:01 It's not a terrible language 05:25:17 Gregor: Awesome. 05:25:34 Sgeo: What, does .NET require a lobotomy? 05:26:06 .NET is a bad idea that sounds like a good idea, poorly executed in a way that makes it look well-executed :P 05:26:50 I'd say useless idea more than bad 05:27:17 Well, fair enough. 05:27:46 Now, if Mono were up-to-snuff, it 05:27:56 it'd be a different story, imo 05:31:52 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 05:32:32 "errors.txt is so brilliant" 05:32:37 "btw" 05:49:45 * Sgeo is currently storing built binaries in version control 05:50:00 :/ 05:51:17 BUT BUT... THAT'S _EVIL_ 05:51:23 (iirc) 05:51:44 Why is it evil, and is there a less evil way? 05:51:53 (I currently access the production server via RDP) 05:52:24 * oerjan swats Sgeo -----### 05:52:33 The RDP thing is not my fault 05:52:51 YOU SEEM TO BE TAKING ME SERIOUSLY. WOULD YOU LIKE A LOBOTOMY TO FIX THIS? 05:53:21 Two lobotomies total, yay! (The first was for .NET) 05:53:51 might be dangerous then, could run out of brain to remove 06:13:14 "These vehicles are fast and cost nothing. Unfortunately, in a bold cost-cutting move, FV decided to go with the lowest bidder, Cheaps-R-Us, which tends to operate, well, below the radar. Exposure to these vehicles will hurt your HP, and eventually kill you." 06:13:31 ^^my attempt at a bit of humor, and the idea of vehicles costing HP 06:16:01 basically they're dead cheap 06:16:46 CAR-E-LESS 06:17:26 Ok, I want to be as creative as you 06:17:45 Although these vehicles aren't quite cars 06:18:00 * oerjan just thought it needed a better pun 06:18:56 http://i.imgur.com/sjr1I.jpg 06:20:03 hm so they fly? 06:21:18 Not unless you go down a mountain quickly 06:22:27 it's interesting how language conventions change over IRC 06:22:41 the picture's so dark i cannot tell if they're touching the ground 06:24:22 * oerjan seems to be out of creativity now 06:24:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 06:24:38 in particular, I've found it tends to model speech more closely 06:24:51 such as putting question marks on questioning sentences, even if they aren't true questions 06:25:32 I strive to unify spoken and written English! 06:26:12 the IPA is thataway 06:31:55 Argh; good luck making a standardised language that way. 06:32:02 English has ridiculously divergent accents. 06:48:53 It's tough for me to tell in-world 06:49:00 But I _think_ they're hovering a bit 06:50:45 But you can't fly high into the sky with them 07:33:04 Why doesn't OCaml have typeclasses? 07:34:52 why doesn't everything have typeclasses? 07:34:54 or better yet, roles? 07:35:09 (/me is pretty sure that roles are the ultimate achievement in typing) 07:36:01 I think I like how some things that would be syntax in some languages are.. user-defined, so to speak, in Ruby 07:36:09 But I think Smalltalk takes that a lot further 07:38:54 correct 07:40:12 Huh. OCaml's ; is [very] roughly analogous to >>= as used in the IO monad, I think 07:40:56 "; has type unit -> 'b -> 'b" 07:41:05 Sgeo: also what do you mean by user-defined? 07:41:10 Wait, if that's the case, then that means things are automatically coerced to unit? 07:41:11 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:42:01 coppro, as in, in Ruby, someiter.foreach do |x| stuff end 07:42:11 Not sure if it's foreach or some other method 07:42:23 But that's instead of a formal foreach construct, I think 07:42:30 Or, well, usually used instead 07:42:40 Sgeo: ah, ok 07:42:49 is it a magic function though? 07:42:52 I think Smalltalk's if is similar 07:43:03 coppro, I'm pretty sure it isn't 07:43:07 or is it merely defined on the same terms as user code? 07:43:15 (like a primitive type) 07:43:15 -!- fizzie has joined. 07:43:21 Um, might be built in, but user code could easily do the same thing, I think 07:43:23 It's been a while 07:43:48 Smalltalk's if I expect is a built-in 07:43:58 since you need a conditional primitive somewhere 07:44:47 But syntactically, it's just method calls, I think 07:45:00 something ifTrue: stuff ifFalse: otherstuff I think. I may be mistaken 07:45:09 It's been a bit of a while 07:46:36 OCaml types look weird 07:46:37 int list? 07:46:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:49:00 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:51:06 ARGH MY GOVERNMENT IS SO FSCKING STUPID 07:52:17 coppro, aren't you in Canada or something? Or am I completely and utterly mistaken? 07:52:30 And no, I did not mean to imply that Canada is perfect 07:53:18 oh, yes, I'm in Canada 07:53:29 where the government is building a prison because of the alarming increase in unreported crime 07:54:21 ...? 07:54:40 That... a) How would they know, and b) How is that useful? 07:55:01 Sgeo: Statcan does surveys to estimate unreported crime rates 07:55:15 the last one that's available was in '04 07:55:24 and showed, I believe, and estimated 3% increase 07:55:31 but that's not really relevant 07:55:41 to the fact that YOU DON'T PUT UNREPORTED CRIMINALS IN PRISON 07:55:56 SO WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU NEED A PRISON BECAUSE UNREPORTED CRIME IS GOING UP 07:56:24 Is object-orientedness really worth the nightmare syntax of OCaml? 07:58:08 "Since you forgot to take into account your special value, you conclude that the mean age of visitors is 7 years old, and you employ web designers to remove all the long words and use primary colours everywhere." 07:58:25 lol 07:58:43 Sgeo: also, the minister behind this believes that surveys are useless after a year or two 07:58:59 our government has been doing so much stuff that makes no sense this summer 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:57 "(note the code highlighted in red):" 08:01:03 -!- yiyus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:01:04 There IS no code hilighted in red! 08:01:05 -!- yiyus has joined. 08:01:08 http://www.ocaml-tutorial.org/null_pointers,_asserts_and_warnings 08:04:18 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 08:04:20 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:26:08 -!- nooga has joined. 08:59:28 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:02:14 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:06:53 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:07:52 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:07:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:08:11 -!- augur has joined. 09:13:07 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:14:12 -!- tombom has joined. 09:22:44 -!- AnMaster has joined. 09:26:36 I suppose there's no statically-typed Smalltalk, is there? 09:28:28 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:30:34 There's apparently something called Strongtalk 09:40:16 I think I'll just relearn Smalltalk 09:46:06 eh 09:50:54 There's no way to make a general native app in Smalltalk, is there? I guess the concept doesn't really make sense 09:51:15 use objective-c 09:52:12 * Sgeo sort of stereotyped that as the Apple language :/ 09:52:21 Guess I should try it eventually, though 09:52:48 But right now, after expunging my mind of the syntax horror that is OCaml, I'm obsessed with Smalltalk 10:21:54 * MizardX recommends Go 10:21:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:28:27 -!- MizardX- has joined. 10:28:53 -!- MizardX has quit (*.net *.split). 10:28:53 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 10:28:53 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 10:28:56 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 10:33:28 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:33:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:33:37 -!- coppro has joined. 10:33:37 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host). 10:33:37 -!- coppro has joined. 10:34:03 Joined, left and joined again within a second... 10:34:09 A CONSPIRACY 10:34:22 connection died 10:34:37 Because of a CONSPIRACY! 10:35:28 or because something happened in between caffeine and my server 10:35:37 Ah, clog is back. 10:38:19 Fakequit by IRC server to change the host? :-) 10:38:32 MY GOD 10:38:58 fungot? 10:39:06 FUNGOT! 10:39:23 You killed fungot! Bastards! 10:40:41 Oh, hmm. 10:41:15 jordan.freenode.net seems to have gone to sleep. 10:41:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 10:42:25 * Sgeo decides to download Pharo 10:42:33 Hm, 1.2 will contain an FFI 10:42:42 Active Worlds bots in Smalltalk! 10:45:46 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin'). 10:45:49 -!- fizzie has joined. 10:46:05 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what a ProfStef is 10:46:12 -!- fungot has joined. 10:46:18 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:46:19 If you are new to Smalltalk, we recommend you to do the integrated, interactive tutorial. To start it, evaluate the following expression (select the text -> right button -> do it): 10:46:24 ProfStef go 10:46:57 Hmm 10:47:08 The UI looks OSX-like 10:47:35 -!- comex has joined. 10:49:23 When I was your age, you wrote your programs on a piece of paper and sent them off to London, where they would evaluate it and send it back in a month! 10:53:38 Ok, I don't remember why I abandoned Smalltalk a while ago 10:55:04 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:00:12 * Sgeo lols at ProfStef 17 11:00:15 "Lost?" 11:00:20 "Hey, you should not be here!" 11:00:34 Also, 16 is the first time it asks you to write the code to go to the next lesson 11:04:48 which ide do you use 11:06:08 Pharo 11:06:19 Although it's more than an IDE I guess 11:12:52 why everything about Smalltalk is so colorful 11:15:06 -!- distant_figure has joined. 11:24:39 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:26:52 -!- distant_figure has joined. 11:40:16 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:47:47 -!- distant_figure has joined. 11:53:07 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:12:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 12:15:06 -!- Occultist has joined. 12:16:22 hI 12:17:07 -!- distant_figure has joined. 12:24:02 -!- Occultist has quit. 12:43:32 -!- distant_figure has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:46:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:47:06 -!- distant_figure has joined. 12:48:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:48:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:57:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:04:28 "You typically only need to use or modify this class, or even know how it works, when making fundamental changes to how the Smalltalk system and language works." 13:04:32 MWAHAHAHAHHAHA 13:14:43 -!- derdon has joined. 13:28:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:53:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:55:14 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 14:01:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:02:35 Assembly is muh nicer when you have proper GPRs... 14:02:39 s/muh/much/ 14:10:00 fungot! 14:10:00 Phantom_Hoover: reading fnord about the sound of my head. i think this channel is a proof that ihope's set is universal. at least it makes updating my debian box 14:10:06 ^style 14:10:06 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 14:10:10 ^style i 14:10:11 Not found. 14:10:12 ^style ic 14:10:12 Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual) 14:10:21 fungot, how do I mingle? 14:10:21 Phantom_Hoover: the `while' inside one of these contexts. 14:17:14 ^style speeches 14:17:14 Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) 14:17:21 fungot, speak! 14:17:22 Phantom_Hoover: this trap was constructed on a new principle, of which, with the adventures of a certain bird known to fnord and fnord, john morley, and arthur fnord) were authors of books before they engaged in the slave fnord because slavery is not wrong, nothing is easier than i thought to come across the atlantic in fnord, the fnord 14:24:56 Speeches are a fnordy matter. 14:25:33 I think GCC should have an option called -fnord... 14:26:13 -fno-rd, to disable -frd. 14:28:07 Let's start a PETITION! 14:31:49 to allow the hyphens to be omitted when turning off options? 14:32:16 Wait, there's a -frd? 14:32:21 There are some alignment-related machine-specific options that start with "-malign", those also have nice names. Like the -malign-natural/-malign-power pair on PPC, and -malign-double on x86. 14:32:46 With -malign-double, GCC will be doubly malignant. 14:34:43 Will it try to murder you? 14:34:51 -!- xz has joined. 14:35:19 -!- xz has left (?). 14:35:29 -!- xz has joined. 14:35:36 xz! 14:35:40 Probably. It might also align doubles, long doubles and long longs on a qword boundary. 14:35:50 But that's in addition to the murdering. 14:36:03 /msg nickserv set kill quick 14:36:37 -!- xz has left (?). 14:36:51 Huh? 14:37:22 Ah. 14:37:44 I don't think there is such a setting; at least nickserv set's subhelp doesn't know it. 14:37:53 is xz a vi command? 14:38:16 Probably. 14:39:06 In the sense that the first 'x' will delete a character, and the z can start many commands. 14:42:55 I'm not sure how vi-compatible the z.* commands are, in Vim they mostly deal with folding, because (according to the manual) z looks like a folded piece of paper. 14:46:16 in NetHack, xz swaps to the readied weapon, then zaps a wand 14:46:45 Nickserv help: "SET NEVEROP prevents others from adding you to channel access lists." That's a curious setting. Maybe useful if you feel permanently irresponsible? 14:48:09 does that include the autoban setting on channel access lists? 14:48:23 (just like you can set someone to be opped on join, or voiced on join, you can set them to be banned on join) 14:48:47 Right, some chanserv kickbannery command utilizes that automatically, I think. 14:49:22 I don't know, and I don't exactly feel like source-diving. If this were NetHack, one could be certain the devteam would have had thought of it, but... 14:50:00 thought of what? 14:50:10 (I'm a reasonably experienced NetHack sourcediver) 14:50:22 ais523, you can't be sane, then. 14:50:36 NetHack's source makes me feel nauseous at times. 14:50:37 Phantom_Hoover: meh, NetHack's source is just an intellectual challenge 14:50:49 compare to DCSS's source, which makes me feel physically ill 14:50:50 And the build process is from hell. 14:50:55 DCSS? 14:51:00 dungeon crawl stone soup 14:51:04 one of NetHack's major competitors 14:51:47 Thought of the interaction of NEVEROP and bans-done-via-access-lists. 14:51:58 ah 14:53:00 ais523, why is DCSS so nauseating? 14:53:21 you just read it and see things that have no right being in code ever 14:53:33 I asked the DCSS devs about some of the stuff they'd found in the code 14:53:38 and one of them had even found a for-case loop 14:54:09 The code is 5 MB, so I won't be able to see it for a couple of minutes. 14:54:26 it's very large, yes 14:54:31 NetHack abuses preprocessor macros far too much. 14:55:17 Atheme-services-5.2.3, modules/chanserv/flags.c: /* If NEVEROP is set, don't allow adding new entries except sole +b. Adding flags if the current level is +b counts as adding an entry. -- jilles */ 14:56:09 I don't know which version freenode uses; the services info-page still speaks of hyperion-related customizations. Still, it's probably worky. 14:56:35 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:07:04 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:10:36 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 15:10:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:12:58 Wait, if that's the case, then that means things are automatically coerced to unit? 15:13:28 that's how Algol does it 15:13:38 in fact, there are two different ways to coerce a procedure to void 15:13:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:13:58 iirc you're supposed to use the ignore : 'a -> unit function to make it explicit when you're ignoring a result. i'm not sure whether ocaml's ; gives an actual type error or a warning 15:14:01 and five different coercion contexts, and a few extra rules, which determine how to do ambiguous coercions 15:14:58 eek 15:15:41 hm... 15:16:03 !haskell do [1,2,3]; [1] 15:16:13 [1,1,1] 15:16:32 that was a little unexpected 15:16:36 i think i've seen it discussed whether haskell do should have had the same semantics, or at least a warning 15:17:01 no that's exactly what the [] monad does 15:17:05 I can never remember what >>= does for [] 15:17:18 it's just that it maybe should do a warning for the same reason 15:17:29 well that's >> technically 15:17:32 yep 15:17:39 but >> is a special case of >>= 15:17:58 !haskel do a=[1,2,3]; [a] 15:18:03 !haskell do a=[1,2,3]; [a,a] 15:18:28 [1,2,3] 15:18:31 you want <- 15:18:34 hmm, it opened up a DCC chat with me just to say "parse error in pattern" 15:18:36 and you're right, I do 15:18:42 ais523, ^ 15:18:43 !haskell do a<-[1,2,3]; [a,a] 15:18:45 [1,1,2,2,3,3] 15:18:52 yep, that's what I expected 15:18:59 I just remembered what >>= did for lists 15:20:25 Ooh, a file:/// url link on a web-forum. "Here, take a look at this picture: file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/HP_Administrator/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/..." 15:20:44 fizzie, who is this idiot? 15:21:14 Reminds me of the time I said "this big" and indicated with my hand when speaking over the phone. 15:21:15 do [1,2,3]; [1] is basically the same as do _ <- [1,2,3]; [1] 15:22:07 yep 15:22:28 I take it that link's to c:\ or something similar? 15:22:48 standard response is along the lines of "I looked at it, but all I could see was porn" 15:22:59 it's pretty much in his private windows picture folder 15:23:20 hmm, come to think of it, you could use file:// links for things that were probably on someone's computer 15:23:57 say, a Debian user asks you "can you link me to a copy of the GPL?", and you go "file:///usr/share/common-licenses/GPL-2" 15:24:14 and when they complain, say "well Debian policy doesn't let me use any other copy, it needs to be centralised to save on disk space" 15:24:23 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:24:46 wicked 15:26:47 incidentally (>>) is almost equivalent to liftM2 (flip const) 15:27:08 (the "almost" is because the latter might be more likely to leak memory) 15:27:44 isn't flip const equal to ignore? 15:27:52 oh, not quite, wrong type 15:28:02 const () is ignore 15:28:08 yep 15:28:17 except that's not monadic of course 15:28:17 const is k, which takes two arguments and returns the first 15:28:23 whereas flip const takes two arguments and returns the second 15:28:27 so flip const is `ki 15:28:57 so I'll just point out that (const id) is shorter than (flip const) 15:28:58 ais523: It was to "c:/Documents and Settings/HP_Administrator/My Documents/My Pictures/..."; the user name is very telling, too. 15:29:03 so useless in haskell, you'd want liftM (const ()) 15:29:15 fizzie: ugh, XP filenames 15:29:51 oerjan: I was talking about inside the lift 15:30:03 (well, the liftM; stupid using "lift" to mean two unrelated things) 15:34:50 23:46:36 OCaml types look weird 15:34:50 23:46:37 int list? 15:34:55 -!- distant_figure has joined. 15:35:17 the order is ML legacy 15:36:23 SO WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU NEED A PRISON BECAUSE UNREPORTED CRIME IS GOING UP 15:36:47 maybe they think people would report more crimes if they thought the criminals might actually get put in jail :D 15:38:05 -!- relet has joined. 15:41:38 Are Linux syscalls guaranteed to leave registers like rdi and rsi alone on x86-64? 15:45:53 I couldn't find that explicitly stated in the documentation anywhere, but based on the syscall entry code, it seemed to me like it'd keep just about everything untouched. 15:46:24 rdi and rsi are the first two syscall arguments, though, aren't they? 15:46:47 I thought x86-64 stuck to the x86 convention. 15:47:28 i.e. rax is the syscall, then rbx, rcx, rdx, rdi, rsi, rbp for the args/ 15:47:36 No, it doesn't. 15:47:50 Oh? 15:48:04 Everything I've tried with that has worked... 15:48:07 rax is the number; the arguments go to rdi, rsi, rdx, r10, r8, r9, in that order. At least if you call via "syscall". 15:49:01 It's the same as a normal x86-64 function call, except rcx/r10; there was something special about rcx there. 15:49:03 With int 0x80 it uses the method above, doesn't it? 15:49:27 I don't know; I haven't ever used int 0x80 with x86-64, since syscall exists and is supposedly better and faster. 15:50:45 Is syscall a normal C function? 15:50:52 What? No. It's an opcode. 15:51:03 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:51:05 Ah. 15:51:13 -!- tombom has joined. 15:54:21 Thanks. 15:54:51 See this bit: http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#YXaLobiZowM/trunk/kernel/linux-2.6.34/arch/x86/kernel/entry_64.S&l=424 15:56:07 It needs a bit digging as to whether it saves the argument registers or not; I seem to recall that it does, but it's a bit messy due to all those macros. 15:59:12 Discounting one very size-optimized stub, I haven't usually been relying on getting the syscall args back untouched. 16:02:03 The SAVE_ARGS bit might be the one that's responsible for keeping them safe. 16:03:32 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:03:41 The syscall opcode itself kills rcx by stuffing the return address (next opcode) there. 16:04:17 And I guess r11 too, for saving rflags there. 16:04:55 (Away a while now.) 16:05:29 -!- tombom has joined. 16:08:24 Well, in other news, I have built most of the type checker for Eightebed. 16:09:19 (Just the type checker, not the pointer validity checker yet.) 16:09:21 -!- tombom_ has joined. 16:10:29 It occurs to me that "proving Gregor wrong" is kind of a crappy reason to implement a medium-sized language. And that implementing a medium-sized language is a rather inefficient way to prove Gregor wrong. Still... 16:10:50 in what way are you trying to prove him wrong? 16:11:09 (I suppose I'll also allow the possibility of "her" there, in case both the name and the photos are lies) 16:11:27 Especially since I'm right :P 16:11:35 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:12:12 ais523: I once got a correspondence that started "Dear Miss Richards:". I politely replied that "Gregor" is a male name. I got a reply that I should probably change the picture on my homepage then :P 16:12:32 Unfortunately, the picture on my homepage is chosen randomly, so I have no idea which was so suggestive. 16:12:50 haha 16:13:45 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:13:46 Gregor, it's the hats. 16:13:48 -!- Gregor has joined. 16:13:57 A CONSPIRACY 16:14:17 The hats??? 16:14:21 You just *happened* to leave the second I said something to you! 16:14:32 My hats are UTTERLY MASCULINE. 16:14:46 ais523: (short version of Gregor's claim) If a language supports explicit free() it also needs to provide GC if it wants to be "safe" (doesn't let you dereference/execute something you didn't mean to.) 16:14:58 Uhhh, no. That's not my claim at all. 16:15:03 No? 16:15:35 A language which provides a true explicit free() cannot be safe. To be safe a language must either never free (which is bad) or be GC'd. That is my claim. 16:15:50 Gregor: what about something along the lines of Splint, but which actually works? 16:16:03 Well, jeez. "true"? 16:16:07 that statically checks all mallocs/frees in the program before running it, to ensure no leaks and no dangling pointers? 16:16:47 ais523: Yay for impossible analysis and no modularity! 16:16:57 cpressey: By "true" I mean that you can get that memory back in a later malloc(). 16:17:03 cpressey: So it actually frees it, and doesn't just ignore you. 16:17:38 Gregor: Splint was modular enough 16:18:07 and possible, because it relied on the programmer to provide it with a proof of memory safety, rather than trying to work it out itself and running up against the halting problem 16:18:09 Gregor: OK, that seems close to what I thought you meant, so I may simply have phrased my version badly. Lemme think 16:18:15 but it was too buggy to succeed as its goals 16:18:43 ais523: By modular in this case I mean at LEAST separated compilation, if not dynamic loading. But also checking for proper malloc() and free() reduces to the halting problem so making that analysis general enough to write real programs seems enormously challenging at least. 16:19:22 Gregor: separated compilation and dynamic linking would have worked fine 16:19:33 it expanded the type system to give safety checks 16:19:48 as I said, it was the programmer's responsibility to give the proof of safety, not splint's reponsibility to find one 16:20:35 Gregor: I think I was "factoring out" the possibility of "fake free()" in my version. Or if you like, add "true" to the part where I mention "free()" too. 16:20:41 Have fun writing an interpreter in that. "Will you free these objects?" "Uhh, I will if they stop being used by the underlying code, but since I have no idea what that's going to do, maybe?" 16:20:45 ais523: ^^^ 16:21:09 Gregor: functions had to be deterministic about whether they freed or not 16:21:20 it's OK to add everything to a global list, then free it all at the end 16:21:48 ais523: Awesome. You can't write an interpreter for a GC'd language. Sounds pro to me. 16:21:49 presumably, you could free earlier if you knew the object wasn't being used (say it went out of scope and had a zero refcount) 16:22:04 and of course you can 16:22:12 you can just do the GC yourself 16:22:19 refcounting + loopbreaking would work fine, for instance 16:22:28 even if that's a crazy GC architecture 16:22:59 Oh, well yeah, you can just treat malloc() as sbrk() and do everything yourself, I'm not being fair there X-P 16:23:27 The problem is that it's difficult to define what "correct" is in this space since a language in which you can't free at all is still A-OK :P 16:23:53 e.g. malloc() is implemented in terms of sbrk(), and on most systems there's no way to relinquish that back to the OS, and yet C code doesn't just bloat up to infinity. 16:24:23 I thought implementing malloc in terms of sbrk was deprecated nowadays 16:24:37 even though it is, or at least was, IIRC, the usual implementation strategy 16:24:38 It's not deprecated, it's just not part of the standard. 16:24:54 Basically the standard loosened to allow other implementations, but that's still the common one. 16:25:20 -!- sshc_ has joined. 16:28:23 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:28:53 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 16:32:03 -!- MizardX has joined. 16:36:07 German people apparently can't gender-map my first name (Heikki), because a place I once ordered a used laptop from keeps sending me their ads prefixed by "Frau Kallasjoki". 16:36:48 I don't know what I would guess with "Heikki" 16:36:54 well, the Grand Prix driver with that name is male 16:36:58 but that's only the one data point 16:36:59 "Heike" is a German female name. 16:37:16 Apparently in China "Gregor" reads as a female name :P 16:37:29 Or at least ambiguous enough to be overwhelmed by my feminine wiles. 16:39:14 -i reads as femaleish in English, I suppose... 16:39:52 it's because most names ending -i are a ridiculous sort of abbreviation 16:39:58 also in norwegian, mostly 16:40:11 that tend to be confined to a particular sort of stereotype, which only applies to women 16:40:12 (Kari, Siri) 16:40:52 and Heidi, though that's actually from german 16:44:14 We need more names that conflict with the Unix toolchain. "And these are my children, Diff and Sed!" 16:44:43 what about Biff? 16:44:50 There ya go. 16:45:10 roff 16:50:51 Complete tangent: I suppose it would be possible to have a completely name-based type system, that is, all types are given names by the user, and 2 types are equivalent iff they have the same name. Maybe? 16:51:02 s/user/programmer/ 16:51:12 We don't want USERS giving names to types, do we? 16:51:31 make that the only form of I/O 16:51:45 ais523, how? 16:51:56 this is just blue skies esothinking 17:18:11 cpressey: and the operations will be "come here", "wash your hands", "spit that out"... 17:26:52 -!- derdon has joined. 17:50:16 -!- asmodeo_ has joined. 17:51:35 -!- asmodeo_ has left (?). 17:52:01 * oerjan realizes for the first time that the back of his palate has a hole above it, he always assumed there would be bone there 17:52:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:52:47 which means it took me 40 years to discover something easily checked on my own body! 17:54:14 * oerjan only started picking there because his palate got a sore spot 17:54:50 oerjan, I bet you don't know what your ear canal looks like. 17:55:08 hm probably not 17:55:21 but that _would_ seem to require special equipment 18:00:45 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 18:01:01 Who is this Mathnerd314 person? 18:01:41 some nerd who thinks he knows mathematics just because he can recite 3 digits of pi ;D 18:02:02 3.14159265...4? 18:02:05 <- knows 15 18:02:12 pi? tl;dr 18:02:19 oerjan: "Please don't make me add "rounding Pi down to three" to your list of crimes", like they say. 18:02:23 i'm sure there's a 4 in there somewhere, yes 18:02:39 I can go better. 1_pi. 18:02:52 3.14159265...4 looks as if 4 would be the last digit. 18:02:58 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----### 18:03:08 *10_pi 18:03:16 AAAAAoops. 18:03:48 I remember 3.14159265358979, but no more. 18:03:51 fizzie: now _that_ can be added to a list of crimes 18:04:05 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 18:04:10 fizzie: me 2! 18:04:29 unless... 18:04:33 !haskell pi 18:04:34 3.141592653589793 18:04:46 not very helpful 18:04:50 That's one more, though. 18:04:58 putFloat? 18:05:05 except i think it's rounded up 18:05:09 !haskell :t pi 18:05:10 pi :: (Floating a) => a 18:05:19 It's not rounded; it goes 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841968... 18:05:33 (That 8 there might be rounded, though. It was from bc, scale=40, a(1)*4.) 18:05:41 Phantom_Hoover: i'm not sure EgoBot has any arbitrary precision floats (there _are_ packages for it) 18:05:49 ah 323 18:05:56 !c #include \nint main() { printf("%f", PI) } 18:05:57 oerjan, no, in Haskell. 18:06:06 Errr 18:06:13 !c #include \nint main() { printf("%f", PI); return 0; } 18:06:21 It's M_PI, and it might not be defined by default, since it's not standard. 18:06:26 i _almost_ remember the 323. except somehow i thought it was 262 a moment ago 18:06:35 Phantom_Hoover: i mean EgoBot's haskell 18:06:43 fizzie: D'aww boo :P 18:07:02 oerjan, I thought it was GHC, like the rest of us use. 18:07:46 Phantom_Hoover: and that has nothing to do with what i am talking about, since the builtin types of ghc don't include arbitrary precision floats afaik 18:07:49 !run echo 'scale=100; a(1)*4;' | bc -l 18:07:54 Aw, no go? 18:07:59 oerjan, aaah. 18:08:13 * Phantom_Hoover wishes you could get the nth digit of pi in decimal. 18:08:17 by "packages" i mean on the hackage repository 18:09:00 Wait, you mean Haskell doesn't provide a *lazy* pi? 18:09:04 That's just wrong! 18:09:11 fizzie: You want `run 18:09:21 cpressey: it doesn't provide a lazy number type, by default 18:09:25 Gregor: Oh, right. 18:09:30 `run echo 'scale=100; a(1)*4;' | bc -l 18:09:34 No output. 18:09:38 cpressey: That's ... oh god lazy computable number *brain axplote* 18:09:41 fizzie, or !sh, probably. 18:09:55 Hm, no bc, quotation issues, something else? 18:09:58 fizzie: That 68 there is wrong, it should go 7169... 18:10:03 oerjan: No excuse. It could provide it as a list of digits then. 18:10:17 How many ways can you run arbitrary code on Codu? 5? 6? :P 18:10:24 Gregor-P: And it needs to provide a lazy Chaitin's omega, as well, clearly. 18:10:26 `bc 18:10:27 No output. 18:10:48 cpressey: YES. Computability be damned :) 18:10:48 `run bc -v 18:10:49 No output. 18:10:54 No bc, maybe. 18:11:01 `run dc -v 18:11:02 No output. 18:11:04 Could just be broke too :P 18:11:09 fizzie, or a pagan bc without -v? 18:11:20 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:11:21 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:11:23 -!- HackEgo has joined. 18:11:23 -!- EgoBot has joined. 18:11:26 Does it output stderr too, or just stdout? 18:11:26 `run dc -v 18:11:27 No output. 18:11:33 cpressey: um a list of digits is just one possible implementation of a lazy number type 18:11:33 `run dc -v 2>&1 18:11:35 /bin/bash: line 1: dc: command not found 18:11:40 `run echo hi 18:11:42 hi 18:11:45 Well, that sorts that. 18:11:46 Heh, well, that's more informative in any case. 18:11:53 Wow, no dc or bc. Weird. 18:11:59 !sh ls 18:11:59 interps 18:12:08 !sh dc -v 18:12:09 /usr/bin/dc: invalid option -- v 18:12:10 oerjan: Well yes. It would be better if Haskell provided lazy reals as a primitive type, obviously, but beggars can't be choosers. 18:12:29 !sh echo 'scale=100; a(1)*4;' | bc -l 18:12:29 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307\ 18:12:52 !sh dc -e "[foo]P" 18:12:52 Well, that works, though bc line-wraps it. (The rest came with DCC chat, as usual.) 18:12:53 foo 18:13:14 !help 18:13:14 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 18:13:24 Deewiant: It might go wrong in the bottommost digits since the scale for a(1) is 40, and then I multiply that by 4. 18:13:27 !helpuserinterps 18:13:29 !help userinterps 18:13:30 userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp. 18:13:40 fizzie: Yep. 18:13:40 !help languages 18:13:41 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 18:13:52 !help addinterp 18:13:52 addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. 18:14:12 !haskell :t Data.Number.CReal.showCReal 18:14:35 !haskell isn't GHCi 18:14:39 !addinterp pi sh echo $1 18:14:39 Interpreter pi installed. 18:14:43 !pi hello 18:14:46 !pi hello world 18:14:48 Deewiant: yes it is 18:14:56 !addinterp pi sh echo $@ 18:14:56 There is already an interpreter for pi! 18:15:04 !delinterp pi 18:15:04 Interpreter pi deleted. 18:15:05 !haskell main = putStrLn "Hi" 18:15:08 Hi 18:15:14 oerjan: I don't think it is 18:15:15 !addinterp pi sh echo $@ 18:15:15 Interpreter pi installed. 18:15:17 !pi 18:15:21 !pi a b c 18:15:35 Gregor, how do the args work, then? 18:15:39 Uh, pretty sure !haskell IS ghci 18:15:44 !delinterp pi 18:15:45 Interpreter pi deleted. 18:15:53 Gregor-P, ^ 18:15:57 !haskell :t "Yes it is" 18:15:58 "Yes it is" :: [Char] 18:16:00 Phantom_Hoover: They are the input. 18:16:05 Fair enough 18:16:16 Gregor-P, hmm. 18:16:23 stdin, that is. 18:16:59 !addinterp pi sh read p; echo $p 18:16:59 Interpreter pi installed. 18:17:02 !pi 18:17:06 !pi 23 18:17:07 23 18:17:17 !pi 18:17:39 Gregor-P: Isn't it just https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/ghc/runghc ? 18:17:48 fizzie: Yup 18:17:59 What's sh for "if $p == '', 0, else $p"? 18:18:20 Any reason not to like Smalltalk? 18:18:21 !delinterp pi 18:18:21 Interpreter pi deleted. 18:19:06 -!- Flonk has joined. 18:19:36 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 18:19:43 Sgeo: Because Smalltalk killed my family. 18:20:19 in a horrible, yet classy way 18:20:28 *ba-dum ching* 18:21:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:21:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:21:59 Phantom_Hoover: Something like: if [ -n "$p" ]; then echo $p; else echo 0; fi 18:22:00 !addinterp pi sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=0; fi; echo 'scale=$p; a(1)*4;' | bc -l 18:22:00 Interpreter pi installed. 18:22:10 !pi 5 18:22:11 (standard_in) 1: illegal character: $ 18:22:20 [[ -n "$p" ]] || $p 18:22:21 !delinterp pi 18:22:21 Interpreter pi deleted. 18:22:30 !addinterp pi sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=0; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | bc -l 18:22:30 Interpreter pi installed. 18:22:32 !pi 5 18:22:32 3.14156 18:22:39 Finally... 18:22:44 Phantom_Hoover: Y'know you can do this in a /query, right? :P 18:22:47 !pi 500 18:22:48 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307\ 18:23:14 Gregor-W, /query? I assume that's some black IRC magic. 18:23:35 !pi 18:23:36 0 18:23:38 Gregor-W: Do both EgoBot and HackEgo speak to query? I've always wondered, but never dared to try it out, just in case they'd take offence at unsolicited private messaging. 18:23:46 Oops... 18:24:07 Phantom_Hoover: /query opens a PM window with a user :P 18:24:42 fizzie: They do not take offense, and enjoy private conversation. Do not be offended if they start getting overly personal, although their sex drives are quite powerful they are incapable of actually acting on it and so you have nothing to fear. 18:24:46 !pi 18:24:46 3.14156 18:24:50 Better. 18:25:19 I need to merge EgoBot, HackEgo and Hackiki into one lean, mean, arbitrary-code-runnin' machine. 18:26:51 what's its use? 18:26:54 Phantom_Hoover: You could consider piping the bc output to | tr -d '\n\\' so that it all ends up in one row. (Though that would, I guess, limit you to IRC's maximum line length...) 18:27:11 fizzie, tr complains at that. 18:27:34 Oh, damn single quotes... 18:28:12 !pi 500 18:28:13 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081284811174502841027019385211055596446229489549303819644288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091456485669234603486104543266482133936072602491412737245870066063155881748815209209628292540917153643678925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094330572703657595919530921861173819326117931051185480744 18:28:19 There we go. 18:28:40 Phantom_Hoover: Come to think of it, instead do export BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 before the command, that way it'll be long but still continue if it wouldn't fit on a IRC-line. 18:29:10 fizzie, trying... 18:30:56 !sh echo limits | bc | tr '\n' ' ' 18:30:57 BC_BASE_MAX = 2147483647 BC_DIM_MAX = 16777215 BC_SCALE_MAX = 2147483647 BC_STRING_MAX = 2147483647 MAX Exponent = 9223372036854775807 Number of vars = 32767 18:31:09 It will only go up to 2147483647, it seems. 18:31:17 Well, it's more than eleven. 18:31:34 Right, now it annoys you through DCC if you ask it for a billion digits. 18:31:45 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later). 18:32:16 * Phantom_Hoover then has to try doing it on his own computer with a billion digits. 18:32:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:32:31 As far as pi computation goes, I don't think bc a(1)*4 is very much on the efficient end of the spectrum. 18:32:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:35:11 http://sprunge.us/EbcM -- not the fastest thing in the west. 18:37:04 !he echo hello 18:37:05 `echo hello 18:37:06 hello 18:37:20 !he echo fungot 18:37:20 `echo fungot 18:37:21 Phantom_Hoover: another motive induces me to put the judgment of history, and to tear from the populace a single favourite. 18:37:21 fungot 18:37:36 So, fungot ignores his fellow bots 18:37:43 Yes, due to too many bot-loops. 18:38:01 `echo !pi 18:38:02 ^ignore 18:38:02 !pi 18:38:02 ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE) 18:38:07 That's the current list of it. 18:38:15 Who is toBogE? 18:38:37 EgoBot's evil twin, obviously 18:38:41 I don't recall; based on the name only, it may have been another EgoBot instance. 18:39:02 Gregor-P, explain. 18:39:34 i don't think it was his bot 18:39:37 Apparently ran by immibis. 18:39:45 (Based on a quick grep.) 18:39:47 ah. 18:39:53 Yeah, 'twasn't mine. 18:40:02 yeah you'd definitely want to ignore that >:D 18:40:20 Who's immibis 18:40:25 s/$/?/ 18:40:39 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 18:40:53 a guy who liked to do verbose things with bots 18:41:08 "This is my user page. I created RubE_On_Conveyor_Belts and MailBox (page coming soon). I will occasionally come on irc.freenode.net #esoteric." 18:41:10 hasn't seen him for a while 18:41:31 oerjan, /me exists for a reason. 18:41:52 Anywho, if I merged my bots, you could upload some code to the Esolangs Hackiki for an esolang, then run it here :) 18:41:54 * oerjan didn't even notice that 18:42:34 I've seen 'im last 2010-01-31 quitting with the message [Quit: #dsdev on irc.blitzed.org exists], but it might not be relevant to the prolonged silence. 18:43:11 Gregor-P: I imagine you could install [eso]interpreters written in arbitrary languages, instead of just the 'n' that EgoBot currently provides? 18:43:47 Without bugging me to update EgoBot's hg :) 18:45:34 Plus, I'd only have one bot on #esoteric X-P 18:45:34 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:46:10 -!- Flonk has joined. 18:50:05 Gregor-P: And access Hackiki articles here. :P 18:50:51 Well, except that people are clamoring for Hackiki as an adjunct, not a primary. 18:51:17 Gregor-P, that is the only workable option, really. 18:51:55 Having no Hackiki is also a workable model :P 18:55:54 Fun fact! THERE ARE NO FUN FACTS. 18:56:34 ALL FACTS ARE DEAD SERIOUS, AND MOST ARE PAINFUL TOO. 18:58:41 cpressey: Good news everybody! I have eliminated all fun facts! 18:59:41 -!- jcp has joined. 18:59:58 fun fact n = if n<=1 then 1 else n * fact(n-1) 19:00:28 ; 19:01:46 :) 19:10:57 oerjan, you have outdone yourself. 19:11:26 my work here is outdone. 19:12:20 * oerjan mostly copied that from some SML link 19:17:32 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:45:40 lol 19:45:58 nooga, why? 19:46:04 fun fact 19:49:27 This clone thing is driving me crazy... 19:49:50 huh? 19:49:56 well are you sure that you're really _you_ who are being driven crazy? 19:50:12 oerjan, "crazy" figuratively. 19:50:23 coppro, it's probably on the BBC somewhere. 19:50:47 ok, then, are you sure that you're really _you_ who are being driven "crazy", figuratively? 19:50:51 Oh, it's on the front page of BBC news... 19:51:09 oerjan, Are you insinuating that I am a clone? 19:51:44 hey it was you that started it 19:53:02 oerjan, cloned COWS. 19:53:08 found it 19:55:46 well you could be a cow, with those hooves 19:57:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:58:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:14:36 * Sgeo decides that it's better to get to the root cause of a bug than to just slap a if (whatever != null) in front of a line 20:15:13 how quaint! 20:18:46 if (whatever == null) whatever = malloc(4096); /* here's some bytes for you */ 20:19:16 (Lowercase-"null" sounds non-C, though.) 20:19:41 now you don't need to check if whatever is null anymore!!! 20:21:23 nullptr obv 20:21:23 instead you can turn a new page 20:22:57 How do I make top display in order of memory used? 20:23:00 top 20:23:08 -!- Flonk has joined. 20:23:14 s/.*// 20:23:30 * oerjan forgets everything Phantom_Hoover has ever said 20:23:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 20:24:37 Phantom_Hoover: The "top" I have here has a nifty quick-access thing that "M" makes it sort by the "%MEM" column. 20:25:01 true ifTrue: [ Transcript show: 'Hi #esoteric!' ] 20:25:19 * Sgeo wonders if Smalltalk would be a decent first language 20:26:06 Sgeo, you wonder that with for every language. 20:26:16 Also, if you press "B" it bolds the current sort column, and then you can use < and > to move it left and right. 20:26:33 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if x86-64 assembly would be a decent first language. 20:26:54 Kids today, no idea how lucky they have it. 20:28:19 Sgeo: Alan Kay wondered that too! 20:29:11 The one thing I dislike about Smalltalk is how casually stuff adds methods to root object classes 20:29:27 With no namespace stuff, so potential for collision is rather high 20:30:09 Yes, it should be so that only the High Clergy is allowed to access the Holiest of Objects. 20:30:12 Ruby can suffer from that too. 20:30:22 Sorry, I mean MatzLisp. 20:33:42 The thing I don't like about Smalltalk is its syntax. 20:38:17 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:39:07 Funny, that's what I hate about Ruby 20:39:18 [And how non-unified it is. Magical blocks? 20:39:40 Oh, I hate that Ruby is non-unified too. 20:40:01 I think I may have used the wrong phrase 20:40:18 I think I caught what you mean anyway. 20:40:57 It and Perl both belong to the "Magic is GOOD!" school... 20:41:14 (So does Python, but Python's in denial.) 20:41:32 Magic is GOOD!? 20:41:43 What sort of magic? 20:42:03 I'm kind of wondering what pro-magic stuff is like 20:42:24 Sparkly, special magic that makes everything NEAT!!! 20:42:39 But having blocks not be objects? Really? 20:42:45 Some weird yield keyword to get to blocks? 20:42:51 * Sgeo gibbers 20:42:52 Blocks? 20:44:47 I thought the block thing was just a funny syntax for passing a lambda to something. 20:45:04 If it's not, no matter! 20:45:10 Just use more magic! 20:45:22 It... is, except they're not objects 20:45:29 Unless the receiver receives it as an object 20:45:36 And you can only pass one block to a method 20:45:53 Or, well, one block as a block. You can objectify blocks, but that's not normally how things are done 20:45:55 What else could the receiver receive it as? 20:46:31 A ... thing detectable somehow [forgot how] and called with the yield keyword 20:46:44 That's the normal way of doing it 20:47:10 Magic sugar! 20:48:08 Magic sugar to make the magic chainsaw pretty! Whee! 20:50:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:50:57 Oh, here's more definition fun like yesterday's reddit comment: "Blocks, Procs and lambdas (referred to as closures in Computer Science) are one of the most powerful aspects of Ruby, and also one of the most misunderstood." http://www.robertsosinski.com/2008/12/21/understanding-ruby-blocks-procs-and-lambdas/ 20:52:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 20:53:26 cpressey, the closure-lambda confusion is actually pretty understandable. 20:54:03 Phantom_Hoover: Agreed. Most because closures are a way to implement lambdas. 20:54:08 *Mostly 20:54:53 How odd. I could've sworn CS called them "lambda expressions" or "anonymous functions". 20:55:10 With the obvious caveat that they do, in some manner, close over their environment. 20:55:34 pikhq, lambdas are closures if closures are present. 20:56:33 Phantom_Hoover, not if your lambda syntax for some reason allows an option to not be a closure 20:56:43 Someone should make an esolang that does that! 20:56:50 ^^another thing I always say 20:57:58 I tend to regard "lambda" as jargon, and tend to prefer "function value" (which is flexible enough to be applied to either syntax or semantics, if it's clear from context.) 20:58:11 Sgeo: C++0x 20:58:22 Sgeo: You list the variables, if any, that you close over. 20:58:34 And in what manner (references or copies) 21:00:31 cpressey, "lambda" is much easier to type than "anonymous function", though. 21:01:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:01:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:01:59 * Sgeo feels free to :p at anyone who suggests that all lambdas are closures 21:08:31 All ζs are φs. 21:09:21 all squiggles are squiggles 21:11:34 Power is power. 21:13:31 Women is women, but MEN is men! 21:13:47 Sgeo, tell that to alise. 21:16:58 -!- alise has joined. 21:17:03 "Two of most useful items in the game are: a magic marker and a can of grease. Both are disgustingly uncommon. * 21:17:03 The most useful item in the game is easily a Wand of Wishing. Which you will then use to wish for grease and magic markers." -- The TV Tropes Wiki page on NetHack. 21:17:20 :D 21:21:07 The atheist "OUT" campaign logo, FSM, ACLU, EFF, FIJA, Kopimi, pirate logo from The Pirate Bay, LGBT rainbow, NORML. 21:21:18 This is the most stereotypical Internet logo-sidebar ever. 21:21:58 alise, we were just talking about you 21:22:30 Am I the Paris Hilton kind of celebrity or the Brain Cox kind of celebrity? 21:23:02 Brain Cox, since I've never heard of him. 21:23:37 Phantom_Hoover: ! 21:24:05 The physicist? 21:24:06 Phantom_Hoover: only the coolest particle physicist slash pop musician slash pop-science TV presenter ever 21:24:16 also, the only one. 21:24:25 Oh, I know him. 21:24:32 I'm just terrible with names. 21:24:47 Is there a name for "Brain Cox after people believe he made a mistake"? 21:25:14 * cpressey is now tragically confused and wants to hurt you all, you all 21:25:24 pikhq: Hi. 21:25:25 Sgeo: ? 21:25:50 cpressey: tl;dr in the UK we have a handful of celebrities who are intelligent and awesome 21:25:52 Since when did you stop logreading? 21:26:15 when talking to people outside britain we usually use the words "national treasure" to convey this. 21:26:22 Wolfram Alpha, "mass of sun in bananas" => input interpretation "banana | amount | 1 banana", and then a "nutrition facts" table with e.g. 6.562*10^24 metric tons of fat; but nowhere it mentions the sun any more. 21:26:25 Sgeo: I do it while chatting. 21:26:41 fizzie: I would like those bananas, please. 21:26:58 It's a solar banana, I guess. 21:30:53 alise: your best celebrity is Richard Clarkson, period 21:31:06 * Sgeo <3 Terry Pratchett 21:31:28 fuck noo 21:31:30 Jeremy 21:31:32 * 21:31:46 Clarkson is a pig; an amusing pig, but a pig. 21:31:54 A Conservative, global-warming-denying pig. 21:32:20 hrmmmpf 21:32:54 alise: Haldo 21:33:11 Jeremy Clockson? 21:33:28 ghh 21:33:45 Dave Gilmour 21:33:58 of PINK FLOYD !11! 21:34:01 I know none of these names. 21:34:03 * cpressey panics 21:34:21 OK, I guess I have heard of Terry Pratt. 21:35:03 Fortunately for you, Jeremy Clockson is fictional 21:35:29 you son of a clock! 21:35:32 David Gilmour is ... very dull. 21:36:04 but i like it when he plays 21:36:50 * cpressey writes a C emitter 21:36:57 what for? 21:36:59 Been a while since I wrote anything that wasn't an interpreter 21:37:03 nooga: Eightebed 21:37:08 what is that? 21:37:35 bliss 21:37:35 nooga: My way of telling Gregor he is wrong, wrong, WRONG 21:37:53 about what? 21:38:15 Oh, something to do with GC or something. One sec 21:38:16 Safe Coids. 21:38:31 oh, is eightebed the one with safe pointers? 21:38:42 The only problem being that I'm right, right, RIGHT 21:38:59 alise: tried MacRuby ? 21:39:10 nooga: a long time ago. 21:39:20 nooga: how is it not utterly boring? 21:39:26 olsner: Yes. And dancing beagles, if you're lucky 21:39:48 sweet! I love dancing beagles! 21:40:03 it compiles ruby to llvm and then llvm emits native code 21:40:06 nooga: "A language which provides a true explicit free() cannot be safe. (By "true" I mean that you can get that memory back in a later malloc().) To be safe a language must either never free (which is bad) or be GC'd." -- Gregor's claim 21:40:33 alise: it's enormously fast compared to mri and other implementations 21:40:47 Gregor-P: what's the reason for that claim? 21:40:54 nooga: Great. A quick way to run a language so boring it makes me want to aestivate. 21:40:58 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 21:41:06 That only runs on a rather naff proprietary operating system. 21:41:10 Just to be perfectly clear, I am only referring to C-like languages :P 21:41:18 alise: Ruby, boring? Magic sugar chainsaw language, BORING??? 21:41:21 i thought you like roby 21:41:22 ruby 21:41:27 that's why i asked you 21:41:48 nooga: that was in a past life, one filled with a lot more gradients and drop shadows 21:41:50 Great, now Gregor can say Eightebed proves nothing because it's not sufficiently "C-like" 21:41:54 Which is to say, imperative languages with pointers at arbitrary data, where safety is defined as not seeing that data as a different type. 21:41:58 alise: rotfl 21:42:26 OK, it is that, at least 21:42:35 * cpressey was feeling like Sisyphus there for a sec 21:42:50 cpressey: I have further-specified all my horribly-ambiguous claims ;) 21:43:30 erm 21:43:31 coppro: And here is my reasoning: If you can relinquish memory to the system then reallocate it, you can alias that under two types, since detecting whether a reference is still in use statically is equivalent to the halting problem. 21:44:00 Flergh, why do languages suck? 21:44:00 And if you can alias it under two types, then of course you can write one type and read another, causing the universe to explode ^^ 21:44:18 alise: which? 21:44:20 Gregor-W: that assumes that the memory is returned unchanged 21:44:38 coppro: No it doesn't, you'll still have two references to it. You just need to write through one and read through another even if it's reinited. 21:44:43 nooga: all of them 21:44:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:45:11 Gregor-W: ah, I see what you mean 21:45:12 alise: Actually languages are very good, all languages, I find people who can;t get their punctuation right! Believe this. 21:45:12 alise, I've fallen in love with Smalltalk, I think 21:45:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:45:18 int **a = /* allocate */; dostuff(a) /* I don't know that dostuff will free a */; int *b = /* allocate */; *b = whatever; **a /*boom*/; 21:45:28 alise, because you love hating everything? 21:45:29 Sgeo: I see. It is flawed. 21:45:41 Phantom_Hoover: no, it really does suck 21:45:46 alise: Your reasoning is pretty awesome X-D 21:45:47 Phantom_Hoover: name a good language 21:45:49 Smalltalk? 21:45:53 alise, besides the commonality of un-namespaced methods being added to core objects on a regular basis, what's wrong with it? 21:45:54 Oh, everything. 21:45:57 Why can't I stop falling in love with flawed languages? D-'8 21:46:06 alise, are you saying that there are no good languages? 21:46:10 Gregor-W: you require a lobotomy 21:46:20 Phantom_Hoover: ones you can actually use, at least 21:46:33 alise, I thought you like Haskell. 21:46:52 alise, what are Smalltalk's flaws? 21:46:55 yeah but haskell is one of the most disappointing languages 21:46:58 in potential vs reality 21:46:59 Sgeo: numerous 21:47:09 1) It is not sufficiently spicy. 21:47:15 alise, "potential vs reality" 21:47:17 ? 21:47:28 2) When you serialize its environment and print it out, it takes too many pages. 21:47:34 Phantom_Hoover: a language "recognisably similar to", "of the same strain as" Haskell could have been truly epically amazing 21:47:41 Haskell itself is ... good, but, you know. 21:47:47 Not /holy shit fucking awesome cakes/. 21:48:00 3) Any language with "Small" in it threatens my masculinity. 21:48:07 alise, you aren't making any sense. 21:48:14 4) Any language with "talk" in it threatens my masculinity. 21:48:16 Phantom_Hoover: No, I really am. 21:48:32 Phantom_Hoover: I am saying that Haskell had, before it was made concrete, /huge potential/ 21:48:39 I am saying that it disappoints, based on this potential. 21:48:55 Could this not just be you expecting too much? 21:49:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO472qM6M9g 21:49:08 wha... i don't even... 21:49:36 Haskell code is often just as hard to read as Perl. And usually harder to understand. 21:49:41 Phantom_Hoover: i've seen the seeds of development that create languages so much less disappointing and in the vein of haskell 21:49:56 yes, they are usually quite impractical (dependently-typed programming hasn't been worked out yet), but ... 21:49:58 you know what, fuck it 21:50:06 just because you did a good job doesn't mean you created something excellent 21:50:10 alise: if all languages suck... 21:50:13 alise, what is unfulfilling with Haskell itself? 21:50:23 retarded kids can try really hard and do a really excellent job and produce a piece of paper with the letter A on it, that is not amazing 21:50:43 Also, you're conflating "sucks" with "isn't perfect". 21:50:51 Phantom_Hoover: type system has too many special features to handle things like typeclasses, etc., requires extensions which can't be inferred and make stuff blargh to be useful ... 21:50:57 syntactical quirks 21:50:59 bad standard library 21:50:59 I'm still curious about Smalltalk's flaws 21:51:18 Phantom_Hoover: no, really, haskell sucks compared to what languages could be, we just all have terrible standards 21:51:39 and i am fucking tired 21:51:54 alise: is it even possible to create a language that does not suck? in your opinion 21:52:08 alise, I've heard that it's bad to put built binaries in version control, but why 21:52:09 ? 21:52:20 Sir, I submit to you that a flying machine is a physical impossibility. 21:52:36 i defer to cpressey 21:52:53 Sgeo: version control systems mostly suck at binaries, they could be out of date, it's generally pointless 21:52:59 and they mostly suck at binaries. 21:53:23 Hackiki has binaries in its VCS ... but then it's not really being used as a VCS X-P 21:53:33 (Well, the Plof Hackiki does anyway) 21:53:34 Meh, have any better way for me to get the stuff to the host given that I only have RDP access? 21:54:11 i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages 21:54:29 i use mainly ruby and C 21:54:48 no, but there is shit significantly better than we have 21:54:57 even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok 21:55:17 `addquote i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok 21:55:24 206| i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok 21:55:43 Gregor-W: TWO SPACES BETWEEN MESSAGES 21:55:57 alise, so why has noöne made a better one 21:56:15 it's like you guys deny whole history of computing 21:56:25 Phantom_Hoover: why does no-one use the diaeresis? 21:56:27 Phantom_Hoover: They're too busy making lolcats on icanhazcheeseburger.com 21:56:31 nooga: you mean, things slowly, steadily improving? 21:57:21 "modern cars are shitty, every single one of them - you can crash, they don't teleport and you have to know how to drive" 21:57:26 People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.. 21:57:33 s/\.\.$/./ 21:57:49 alise, noöne is interrupting. 21:57:50 but shit, i've seen beatuful cars, fast cars, comfortable cars, usable cars 21:57:51 etc 21:57:54 Phantom_Hoover: nooga is. 21:57:57 nooga: you know, innovation is possible and happens. 21:58:06 sure 21:58:07 nooga: and there is significant evidence of the possibility of good languages 21:58:17 and it can easily be seen how technology has been held back if you study it a bit 21:58:30 but complaining about current state without active search for future solutions 21:58:33 cars have been around since pick a date according to your definition of car 21:58:37 alise, so then why has noöne made one? It's not like making a car; you only need a computer, intelligence and time. 21:58:37 computers are new and people suck at them 21:58:43 nooga: guess what? Just because we whine about it doesn't mean we aren't looking. 21:58:51 Even cpressey is, in his own way. 21:59:18 Phantom_Hoover: Why hasn't anyone formulated the Grand Unified Theory yet? It's not like making a car; you only need pen, paper, intelligence and time. 21:59:48 maybe human brain is too small for that :F 21:59:52 alise, there isn't really any evidence that one of them exists, but you act like there must obviously be a perfect language. 21:59:59 Even me! ~~ 22:00:00 besides, people have made /better/ languages, it's just that today's /ecosystems/ like operating systems etc. aren't very friendly to them 22:00:14 Phantom_Hoover: i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages no, but there is shit significantly better than we have 22:00:27 is your definition of "acting", "explicitly denies"? 22:00:50 Huh? 22:01:14 Oh, wait. OK, s/perfect language/better language/ 22:01:39 okay 22:02:00 Phantom_Hoover: wait, you are actually saying that it's not obvious a better language exists than the ones we use today? 22:02:06 so what are the properties of language better than existing ones? 22:02:19 fucking hell, you like Lisp; people who do day-to-day programming, C and shit, they have no idea about Lisp 22:02:32 alise, we *have* Lisp, though. 22:02:34 is it so hard to imagine a better language that is unknown like Lisp and impractical in today's world in the same ways as Lisp? 22:02:40 Phantom_Hoover: we have Epigram, too 22:02:58 alise, does it suck? 22:03:43 yeah 22:03:47 but less so 22:04:19 of course it's almost entirely theoretical because nobody wants to bother making a practical language because it's hard and nobody gives you any support or thanks, just "and how can I HTTP synergise with this?" 22:04:29 thus modern academic language design. 22:04:40 awful 22:05:17 you can't write a modern OS using some heavily math based language 22:05:18 care to qualify that awful? say, give it an object to indicate what is awful? 22:05:23 well.. you can 22:05:32 "of course it's almost entirely theoretical because nobody wants to bother making a practical language because it's hard and nobody gives you any support or thanks" 22:05:35 but it would be worse than selfdestruction 22:05:41 nooga, FAIL. 22:06:02 imagine if Solaris was written in Haskell 22:06:08 that's what i call fail 22:06:13 Imagine Solaris. 22:06:16 That's what I call fail. 22:06:17 nooga, do you seriously think "good" = "you can write an OS in it"? 22:06:23 nooo 22:06:25 -!- augur has joined. 22:06:36 but i still think that languages are tools 22:06:51 nooga, AND ACADEMIC LANGUAGES AREN'T TOOLS FOR OS DESIGN 22:06:54 you need hamer? use hammer. you need scalpel? use scalpel 22:07:12 i konow 22:07:14 know 22:07:16 We *have* tools for OS design. 22:07:25 i know that 22:07:28 Well, conventional OS design, anyway. 22:07:38 sure 22:07:47 nooga, so how does it reflect badly on Haskell that you couldn't write an OS in it? 22:07:56 it does not] 22:07:57 We don't have good non-academic languages because CREATING GOOD PRACTICAL LANGUAGES JUST GETS YOU INSULTS, FLAMES AND NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER 22:07:59 my point was 22:08:10 Phantom_Hoover: It has been done (for some definitions of "OS"). 22:08:10 at least ACADEMIC languages are RESPECTED and get you *ACADEMIC CREDIT* 22:08:14 I still don't see what's so bad about Smalltalk :/ 22:08:23 syntax 22:08:25 this is a SELF PERPETUATING PROBLEM caused by the IDIOCY of today's computing and it is /everyone's fucking fault/. 22:08:27 and tools 22:08:30 Sgeo, syntax sucks. 22:08:32 so just shut up 22:08:38 Sgeo: Phantom_Hoover is wrong :P 22:08:41 Smalltalk is pretty damn good 22:08:46 I just have doubts about OOP in general 22:08:49 and ... imperative programming 22:08:51 Sgeo: It's a damned lot better than many other OO-type languages. However, it does have flaws. 22:09:15 For now at least, I'd consider it the example of how to do OO right. 22:09:29 I still want to know what those flaws are :/ 22:09:31 (not because it can't be better, but because just about everything else is *worse*) 22:09:43 alise, did the designers of Haskell get flamed and insulted? 22:10:05 Phantom_Hoover: Didn't when it was purely academic. It does now. 22:10:10 Phantom_Hoover: Uh ... yeah, Haskell is regularly insulted. The only reason the designers didn't take it and the fans now do, is because it was /originally a highly academic language/. 22:10:26 haha! 22:10:36 Then it became popular and people started writing bad libraries and crap in it, giving it bad package management tools, flooding the channel with bullshit, and then everyone else pointed and laughed. 22:10:52 Sgeo: The syntax is irritating, it's dynamically typed, and it's dynamically typed. 22:10:53 Thus demonstrating the immense worthwhileness of creating a good, practical language. 22:10:54 alise, people will write bad libraries anyway. 22:10:55 I've met Phil Wadler in Edinburgh! 22:10:57 Immense meaning "0". 22:11:01 (dynamic typing is that much of a failure) 22:11:09 he said 'hi' to me 22:11:10 Phantom_Hoover: yeah, but some haskell code /really, truly/ misunderstands what haskell is. an awful lot of it 22:11:17 pikhq: Smalltalk's syntax is fine, dammit. 22:11:31 alise, that's because you can't have an idiot detector in the compiler. 22:11:41 alise: Okay, fine. s/The syntax is irritating/It's dynamically typed/ 22:11:46 Transcript show: 'I can survive this.'; cr. 22:11:50 Phantom_Hoover: how about we agree that you ignore that part of the sentence 22:11:52 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Wadler ) 22:11:53 and read the rest of it 22:12:29 So what are statically-typed Smalltalk-like languages? 22:12:43 Sgeo: Strongtalk, I think had something ... maybe ... but basically nothing ... 22:12:47 nooga: Oh, the dude who compared monads to a solution to Descartes' mind-body problem? 22:12:56 yep 22:13:13 he's loose 22:13:18 cpressey: Hey, Wadler is awesome. Just ... not that specific thing. 22:13:32 nooga: Better put him back in his cage then. 22:13:35 alise, I don't get why people writing bad libraries will stop with a better language, though. Which seems from here to be your point. 22:13:37 It also amazes me the people that think that pretty much anything functional is "magic". 22:14:19 Phantom_Hoover: I thought we agreed to ignore that part? 22:14:28 What other part am I not ignoring? 22:14:30 Then it became popular XXXXX, giving it bad package management tools, flooding the channel with bullshit, and then everyone else pointed and laughed. 22:14:41 Tada, no more things about libraries for you to complain about. 22:14:56 alise, OK, so your point is that people started laughing when the idiots came. 22:15:04 Nope. 22:15:06 eh, i used bad word 22:15:11 My point is it became popular then people started laughing. 22:15:15 The idiots were just a side note. 22:15:16 Ignore it. 22:15:21 Fucking hell, I'm insanely tired, cut me slack. 22:15:38 i mean't 'cool' but 'loose' is exact translation from PL 22:16:02 alise, so why did people start laughing? 22:16:12 Phantom_Hoover: because it became popular 22:16:16 it had to synergise HTTP. 22:16:21 what are these monads? In enterprise we do not use monads! 22:16:28 You innovate, but how does this interact with RUBY? 22:16:39 Ha ha ha, all this mathematical masturbation. How does it help me drive my toaster? 22:16:40 now brb. 22:16:58 * Sgeo wonders what a compromise between static and dynamic typing might look like 22:17:05 Something that allows safety and flexibility 22:17:14 alise, but surely your view of a better language would be more mathematical than Haskell? 22:17:33 pikhq: that's what I fear 22:17:36 Maybe something similar, but not identical, to OCaml's and Scala's statically-typed duck-typing-like thing? 22:18:04 could you apply lazy evaluation to the type system and do lazy type-checking? 22:18:34 olsner: Yes but *wince* 22:18:41 Grr at http://www.pharo-project.org/home 22:18:44 erm, wrong link 22:18:49 Grr at http://www.smalltalk.org/articles/article_20041002_a1.html 22:19:09 They imply that that fault is static type checking's fault, when it's a fault with that particular type system 22:19:20 I'd imagine that, say, dependent types would work well there 22:19:46 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:21:03 Static typing as in C might not be the answer, but that's no reason to throw out static typing altogether 22:21:06 More to the point, type systems do not and never will preclude bugs. 22:22:09 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 22:23:02 "The fact that Smalltalk's numbers "scale" - in this case small integers scale to larger numbers - dynamically has everything to do with a benefit over statically typed numbers." 22:23:14 Sgeo: Static typing as in C is absolutely not the answer. 22:23:26 C has static typing? 22:23:33 Phantom_Hoover: Static, weak typing. 22:23:36 Ah. 22:23:49 Gregor-P: Nope, it just precludes certain classes of bugs. Only idiots think static typing is the magic solution to all bugs. 22:24:03 Of course, there are a large number of idiots. 22:24:28 static typing is not the solution to all bugs 22:24:30 but it helps 22:25:10 It would be nice if by types we stopped meaning, say, Numbers, Strings, etc, and started meaning, say, XCoord, YCoord, Distance, DisplayedString, etc. 22:26:15 there are various languages that allow opaque retyping 22:26:29 Sgeo: That's what Hungarian Notation was originally supposed to be 22:26:37 -!- comex has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 22:26:49 Then Microsoft Microsofted the hell out of it 22:27:01 I know Joel endorses that sort of Hungarian Notation 22:27:21 i hate hn 22:27:21 I tried to make it part of the language (one of my languages - Dieter) 22:27:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:28:07 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:29:08 cpressey, seems easy enough 22:30:25 there's no Dieter in our wiki 22:30:34 Phantom_Hoover: It took me a while -- but it was more complicated than just that (the type system has polymorphic typing with type qualifiers) 22:30:38 nooga: it's not very esoteric 22:30:43 show plz 22:32:08 http://catseye.tc/projects/dieter/ 22:37:07 "# The DevTeam implemented an immediate and savage punishment for pudding farmers. It's called Pudding Farming." -- The TV Tropes Wiki article on NetHack. 22:43:56 I'd imagine that, say, dependent types would work well there 22:44:01 Dependent types have their own whole host of problems. 22:44:13 They are unruly enough to be a Bad Idea unless the type language is total. 22:44:21 If the type language is total, that implies a full functional language, more or less... 22:44:27 and by that point, why use an imperative language at the base? 22:44:31 Explain? 22:44:34 Also, dependent side-effecting types are hard. 22:44:52 Sgeo: Explain what? 22:44:57 My program doesn't terminate, my macros don't terminate, and now my type checking doesn't terminate! Boffo. 22:45:12 total type languages, unruliness, dependent types... 22:45:16 -!- comex has joined. 22:45:47 Sgeo: Type language: the language used in the type system. if you don't realise that types are expressions, you don't know what dependent programming is 22:45:52 unruly: hard to control, nearly impossible to use 22:45:56 dependent types: you yourself used this term 22:46:03 hi comex 22:46:09 hi 22:46:20 That doesn't mean I understood it, except vaguely as "A type that can be constrained to be, say, between 1 and 5" 22:46:22 comex: are the details of your jailbreak exploit public? 22:46:24 And I'm probably way off base 22:47:27 -!- cheater99 has joined. 22:48:14 alise, total? 22:48:40 Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr terminating 22:50:43 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:51:47 alise, "total" in the sense that it is defined for all input values? 22:51:57 That is where the term originates. 22:52:20 It means all functions are total; thus no non-terminating replies; thus in a functional language as this applies to, all programs terminate 22:52:36 alise, ah. 22:52:52 So you can't have a practical, dependently-typed language? 22:52:58 http://vimeo.com/9056286 HOW COOL IS THAT 22:52:58 Untrue. 22:53:03 We just haven't figured out how yet. 22:53:04 i want one 22:53:12 It is Ongoing Research. Ask Connor McBride. He'll dazzle you with confusion. 22:53:24 alise, if all functions are terminating you can't even write cat... 22:53:53 why are current dependently typed languages impractical? 22:53:54 Ah. Well cat is modelled with a Beuchi automaton, you see... 22:54:00 Phantom_Hoover: Untrue. 22:54:04 Phantom_Hoover: Codata allows infinite data. 22:54:12 Codata...? 22:54:14 Phantom_Hoover: This is why we say "total", not "always-terminating". 22:54:15 *Büchi 22:54:20 Phantom_Hoover: codata is this thing. 22:55:28 What thing? 22:55:59 Phantom_Hoover: it's complicated. 22:56:15 I love it when people ask questions that boil down to "please summarise this large field of study in a line" 22:56:17 *line". 22:56:34 this thing that makes writing a simple cat pain 22:56:36 Phantom_Hoover: instead of constructors you have destructors and they can be infinite. 22:56:45 nooga: no, untrue, you can have a non-total base language 22:56:52 nooga: also, using codata is friggin' easy 22:56:53 alise, looked it up. 22:56:57 just not explaining it. 22:57:05 nooga: try explaining imperative programmer to a "native" functional programmer 22:57:07 you'll sound like a madman. 22:57:09 alise, incidentally, the typography at http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/groups/tatami/handdemos/doc/coind.htm is awful. 22:57:25 Phantom_Hoover: I see no typography 22:57:48 a gaudy background image, no CSS styling, and some old bitmap images for Greek letters. 22:57:52 s/typography/rendering of mathematical Things/ 23:00:27 -!- augur_ has joined. 23:00:34 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:00:44 -!- augur_ has joined. 23:01:30 "Nurse dancing is a minor tactic in NetHack. If you are naked and wielding nothing, a nurse will heal you instead of hurting you. If the healing attacks would heal you past your normal max hit points, your max hit points will increase." 23:03:04 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:03:12 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 23:04:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:04:40 alise: but the FACT is our computers have such a thing called STATE 23:05:11 and functional languages don't deny it. However, the "LOL computers have STATE" argument is basically preschool as far as functional languages are concerned and I have better things to do* than reply to it. 23:05:14 *such as nothing 23:05:25 Maybe googling will turn up the answer to your complaint. Maybe not. 23:05:40 and pretending that there's no such thing as STATE and trying to explain it to our computers is going the way round 23:05:40 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Quit: Quit). 23:05:50 You're stupid. 23:06:12 i just think that 'pure' languages are impractical for most uses 23:06:22 ofc there are some cases when they rock 23:06:41 The FACT, nooga, is that all computers have BITS in them! So I make sure to write all my programs to do bitwise operations on my data. 23:07:04 =,= 23:07:07 To do any less would be passing up a great opportunity! 23:07:24 The universe has quantum mechanics. I cannot take a reference to a variable without its value changing. 23:07:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:07:34 That is because my language is done the right way around. 23:07:36 ruling out state is much bigger abstraction than covering few bits with numbers 23:08:07 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:08:21 nooga, so? 23:11:50 overkill 23:12:12 what an awful argument 23:12:26 it's like you took a supremely mediocre argument, then just sort of dragged it down 23:13:23 01:52:48 But right now, after expunging my mind of the syntax horror that is OCaml, I'm obsessed with Smalltalk 23:13:28 presumably you missed the nice language 23:13:30 the syntax isn't that bad 23:13:32 I quite like it 23:14:20 I'm not sure how I could ever come to like OCaml, after tasting Haskell's [mostly] syntactical glory 23:14:31 yeah, uh, ocaml has better syntax than haskell in many many places 23:14:37 Well, not glory, but cleanlinesslooking 23:14:54 then you have to write it 23:15:00 and reminisce about ocaml 23:15:14 oh come on, cars got 4 wheels, but you dont have to turn them personally, instead of that you use driving wheel and the engine takes care of the rest... but virtually you could build an extremely complicated robot that'd drive the car for you basing on your wishes 23:15:48 but it's an overkill... nowadays, at least 23:15:56 nooga you really don't understand what you're talking about 23:15:57 -!- distant_figure has joined. 23:16:18 23:40:56 "; has type unit -> 'b -> 'b" ;; that's a lie, ; is synta 23:16:19 *syntax 23:16:28 iirc 23:16:42 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 23:16:49 ITS A TARP 23:16:57 well 23:17:01 I don't actually agree that languages are tools, but I would agree with the statement "pick the right abstraction for the job". Sometimes "stateful" is the right abstraction, sometimes "stateless" is, sometimes there is no right answer. 23:17:02 that's possible 23:17:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:17:28 cpressey: i agree 23:17:49 cpressey: Of course, the whole point is that /stateful/ can happen in a stateless language. 23:17:56 Statelessness is an /abstraction/ of statefulness. 23:18:03 Which is why you can perfectly well write imperative code in Haskell. 23:18:08 And why people whining about it are stupid. 23:18:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 23:18:42 * Sgeo_ wants to make AW SDK bindings for Smalltalk now 23:19:30 how natural it is... we use some monadic trickery to mimic tatefulness in a stateless language that compiles to stateful language running on stateful machine 23:19:47 sounds like an optimal solution 23:20:11 :| 23:20:17 nooga, you don't get abstractions, do you? 23:20:40 and nooga successfully ascends to the level of "assumption-making, stands-on-shoulders-of-giants (CPU architecture) but objects to adding more, complete and utter troll". 23:20:42 do I? 23:21:02 I think the Jews would circumsize you at this point. 23:21:10 do not want 23:21:45 okay, let's just assume that i am completely wrong, eot 23:22:46 I support this assumption! 23:22:48 *not really 23:24:34 Epigram compilation fails for some reason... 23:24:46 C emitted for Eightebed needs work, but it runs without crashing now! http://pastie.org/1076160 23:24:47 "Could not find module `Control.Applicative':" 23:25:45 *emitter 23:26:04 cpressey, my mere mortal eyes suggest that that's not valid C. 23:26:10 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:26:15 Phantom_Hoover: Indeed sir. 23:26:42 What's with the [DeRef]? 23:27:26 I just stubbed out the emitter stuff for variable references. And the struct contents, you see. 23:28:03 jim = eightebed_malloc(sizeof(node); 23:28:06 You missed a ). 23:28:16 Also, so totally abbreviate it as 8ebed, if C allows starting an identifier with 8. 23:28:25 Well, maybe tonight, I'll finish it. Then I'll still need to work on the runtime. And optionally the validity analyzer (although I could just write out the rules, say they must be followed, and not implement them) 23:28:40 alise: indeed. I don't think it does. Maybe _8ebed. 23:29:13 cpressey: Could I also inform you that it should be "node *foo", not "node* foo"? You can lynch me if you want. 23:29:48 alise: HAH. Next you'll want it to be indented and all. 23:30:30 C has this weird convention in decls about variables "being" the pointers instead of the types. But you know that probably. 23:31:00 (Instead of the types being pointer types. Except they are. Oh, C.) 23:31:47 does anyone know of any languages where you can dynamically change the types of variables? 23:32:22 coppro: Python comes immediately to mind. Of course, their values will generally change too. 23:32:49 cpressey: variables don't have types in Python, only values 23:33:01 coppro: Well, granted. 23:33:42 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:34:01 e.g. foo := 4; foo @= string; foo == "4" # true 23:34:16 coppro: You could build a container that has a (dynamically changeable) type in Python, I suppose. 23:34:57 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:35:08 coppro: But what's stopping me from saying that all Python variables have a type, and that type is just derived from the type of the value that the variable is holding? 23:35:22 That doesn't seem to be too different from your e.g. 23:35:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:36:00 cpressey: because in my example, subsequently trying foo := 4 again would be an error because foo is a string 23:36:12 (but foo := 4 @ string would be fine) 23:36:31 alise, any idea why Epigram won't compile? 23:36:42 coppro: How is that dynamically changeable? Dynamically establishable, maybe... 23:36:47 Phantom_Hoover: Because it hates you! 23:36:56 Phantom_Hoover: Do you have she? 23:37:00 Yep. 23:37:09 I'm not an idiot at error diagnostics. 23:37:24 Do you have ghc 6.12? 23:37:28 Epigram requires it. 23:38:03 Yep. 23:38:20 Anyway, must be off now. Slight chance I'll be back on later tonight. Ahoy! 23:38:21 The specific error pertains to a lack of Control.Applicative. 23:38:23 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:38:48 GHCi imports this without complaint. 23:38:55 Phantom_Hoover: Please pastie the whole log. 23:39:58 http://pastie.org/1076195 23:40:37 alise, ^ 23:40:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:42:08 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:42:17 What command did you use? 23:42:31 It is a member of the hidden package `base'. 23:42:31 It is a member of the hidden package `base-3.0.3.2'. 23:42:39 are you SURE you have 6.*12*? 23:42:40 please check 23:43:16 I did. It's definitely 6.12. 23:43:30 The command was "make dep" in Pig09/src 23:43:42 -!- distant_figure has joined. 23:45:10 A distant_figure! 23:45:16 Phantom_Hoover: *shrug* try rolling back revisions, report bug 23:50:04 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 23:53:51 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:55:11 alise, so there's no obvious reason for this? 23:55:25 It seems to be in the standard import path... 23:55:39 Phantom_Hoover: i have no clue 23:56:25 You must build a turtle fence! 23:57:20 Gregor-P, wha? 23:58:11 He's right, you know. 23:58:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qizNQKzatXA 2010-08-05: 00:03:14 10:38:41 I don't recall; based on the name only, it may have been another EgoBot instance. 00:03:19 it was immibis' annoyance machine 00:04:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:05:38 * Sgeo_ wants to fix a typo in Pharo without breaking other people's code 00:06:00 doit 00:06:10 The latter part is what's stopping me 00:06:19 I'm looking at this changes thing, and I see code changes 00:06:23 Not just my typo fix 00:06:39 Why does Epigram HATE me? 00:08:01 Phantom_Hoover: Because it is a sensitive person. 00:09:34 Ok, so the changeset against Pharo is just the change I want, but the changeset against PharoInbox isn't 00:09:40 Do I just save to PharoInbox anyway? 00:09:43 * Sgeo_ is scared 00:15:51 Saved 00:18:04 http://www.squeaksource.com/PharoInbox/ 00:32:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:33:25 -!- deathmoniac has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:33:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:34:33 -!- deathmoniac has joined. 00:38:54 Wow, the Star Wars Holiday Special is considered canon. 00:39:04 "The Holiday Special is important, at least to serious fans, for being the first film-length Star Wars story to appear following the release of Episode IV, as well as showing an expanded look at parts of the established universe. The program is considered canon with regards to Chewie's family, including the celebration of Life Day." 00:45:39 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 00:46:03 Aaaarghthathurts 00:46:20 But is AWESOME. 00:47:14 Also, it kinda impresses me how much better output pdfTeX generates than straight TeX. 00:47:27 http://texblog.net/latex-archive/layout/pdflatex-microtype/ Seriously, just look at this. 00:47:50 The lesson: Knuth is stupid. 00:47:58 (granted, the difference should be nowhere near as notable on normal-width columns, but... Dang.) 00:48:26 alise: I wouldn't say that. Keep in mind that pdfTeX is pretty much the first thing this side of Gutenberg to do comprehensive microtypography. 00:48:45 pikhq: KNUTH IS BASICALLY A RETARD WHO KNOWS NOTHING 00:48:50 what has he ever done for us, also the romans 00:48:51 Hah. 00:50:15 alise: have you seen the iTeX video? 00:50:40 coppro: no, but i don't expect the joke to be that hilarious 00:50:50 * alise finally gets round to reading Five-Minute Voyager, instantly falls in love 00:50:51 Chakotay: Ha! Chakotay 1, Cardassians 0! 00:50:51 Tuvok: (detecting the wave) Um, you might want to reconsider that.... 00:50:51 Janeway: Here's the deal -- betray your Maquis pals, and I'll bust you out of here. 00:50:51 Paris: No. On second thought, yes. 00:51:49 link? 00:52:06 http://www.fiveminute.net/voyager/; http://www.fiveminute.net/voyager/fiver.php?ep=caretaker 00:53:06 I keep copying a quote but my mouse drags it further and further and eventually I end up trying to quote the whole thing 00:56:07 "Janeway promotes B'Elanna for punching Carey in the face." 00:58:15 Kazon: Can we keep the water? 00:58:15 Neelix: Hmm...no. 00:59:14 Wave is dying? 00:59:34 Janeway: Oof! Hey, a shockwave! 00:59:34 Tuvok: Yep. Came from that planet. 00:59:34 Janeway: It's still emitting harmful radiation, so let's go towards it. 01:00:21 Paris: I thought we weren't supposed to break the Prime Directive. 01:00:21 Janeway: We already did, so now we can do it as much as we want. 01:00:26 s/ $// 01:00:48 There's a TNG that I liked that I want to see the 5min of 01:01:29 It sort of only works on terrible shows. 01:01:37 But here: http://fiveminute.net/nextgen/ 01:01:49 It was a Wesley episode 01:01:53 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:01:57 All of the commentary is making fun of that :/ 01:02:02 http://www.fiveminute.net/voyager/fiver.php?ep=theomegadirective 01:02:03 oops 01:02:05 Neelix: Okay -- just had to get a line in somewhere in this episode. 01:02:36 Sgeo_: which one? 01:02:42 http://fiveminute.net/nextgen/fiver.php?ep=thegame 01:06:50 grr at 403 01:07:27 Janeway: So the plan is to fly right into the hands of the Kazon. Any objections? 01:07:27 Tuvok: Nine. 01:08:13 Isn't Year of Hell generally considered good? 01:08:48 Voyager is universally terrible. 01:09:14 Some episodes are alright in isolation. 01:09:32 Then you realise that Janeway is a crazy sociopath with multiple personalities^Wwriters. 01:09:47 I haven't seen enough episodes to realize that, I think 01:10:09 I remember reading that the actor actually complained? 01:10:15 Doc: Bad news, baby. This baby isn't Chakotay's. 01:10:15 Seska: $#@*%! It must be Culluh's! 01:10:15 Doc: The computer's checking that with a DNA test. Ah, here we go. The baby's parents are...Mulder and Scully? What the--? Computer! 01:10:16 Computer: Can I help it if I'm a 'shipper? 01:10:33 Sgeo_: Chakotay's wooden playing is purposeful; the actor hated the show and really didn't give a shit. 01:10:43 Janeway's actor (who cares about names?) also disliked it quite a bit. 01:10:54 Basically it's great to watch because it's hilariously bad. 01:11:09 whoa 01:11:13 Kes: I wanna get captured. 01:11:13 Neelix: Look, we've discussed this. I'm not comfortable with a relationship involving S&M. 01:11:13 Kes: No, by the cavemen. 01:11:13 Neelix: Don't change the subject to exclusivity. 01:12:00 Culluh: I love all the gadgets on this ship. Watch this -- I can turn the ceiling fan on and off. 01:12:00 Seska: Maj, someone on board is using Maquis sabotage tricks! 01:12:00 Culluh: Fan goes on, fan goes off. Fan goes on, fan goes off. 01:12:03 MUST. QUOTE. EVERYTHING. 01:12:41 Doc: I'm afraid Suder was killed. 01:12:41 Tuvok: Guess I should say something Vulcan-like. (ahem) "Live long and prosper." 01:12:41 Doc: I don't think you heard me. He's dead. 01:12:41 Tuvok: If you can't find it in your heart to wish him a long life, keep your mouth shut. 01:13:19 Data: It is made of anti-time. And it is giving off anti-time radiation. 01:13:21 Picard: Shhh! Janeway will hear you! 01:14:11 :D 01:14:23 http://pastie.org/1076332 CTO 01:14:36 Data: Aye, sir. Ooooooo! It appears the anomaly has been created by three converging tachyon beams from three different times. 01:14:39 Picard: What an amazing coincidence! I've been in three different times and fired tachyon beams in this exact spot. 01:14:42 Data: Perhaps those phenomena are related. 01:14:44 Picard: I don't see how, but I'll switch to my future self. He's had more time to think about it. 01:14:51 my new toy 01:15:25 C subset jibberish generator 01:15:30 http://pastie.org/1076334 01:15:34 Janeway: Mr. Kim, the date! I need to know the exact date! 01:15:34 Kim: November 23rd...1996! 01:15:34 Chakotay: November 23rd. The day before First Contact was released. 01:15:34 Janeway: That's what they came here to do! Stop First Contact! Ensign, where is the launch scheduled to take place? 01:16:06 hahaha 01:16:42 Starling: Ha ha! I've stolen your doctor! 01:16:43 Everyone: (over the comm) Yay! 01:16:43 Starling: I was expecting "Uh oh" or "Oh nuts" or something. 01:17:19 Future Riker: Take us in, Mr. Data. Hey, look, the other two Enterprises are on the viewscreen. 01:17:22 (BOOM) 01:17:25 Future Riker: Other one Enterprise. 01:17:27 (BOOM) 01:17:30 Future Riker: Forget it. 01:17:33 Future Crusher: Wait! There's a pattern here! If it holds, then -- 01:17:35 (BOOM) 01:18:08 :D 01:18:18 ekhm 01:18:24 CCCCCCCCC... 01:19:43 Chakotay: Seen any cloaked fleets lately? 01:19:43 Seven: Words fail me. Hey, a transmission. 01:20:11 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:21:22 Paris: I found Chakotay and Harry in the morgue. 01:21:22 Tuvok: Their sacrifice will not be forgotten. 01:21:22 Paris: They aren't dead. 01:21:22 Tuvok: Damn. 01:22:00 There are some literate programming systems designed for specific programming languages, such as Pascal WEB, CWEB, Enhanced CWEB, etc. And there are some generic literate programming aystems that can be used with any programming language, such as noweb, FunnelWeb, Newfangle, and also yesweb. 01:22:30 http://sprunge.us/fOZT 01:22:38 (Please look at it? Make comment of it? etc?) 01:23:10 Admiral: Okay, class, ask me some questions. 01:23:10 Student 1: Why are you just going by "Admiral"? 01:23:10 Admiral: "Admiral Janeway" takes too long to type. Next? 01:23:10 Student 2: Do you intend to travel back in time and alter history so that Voyager gets home 16 years earlier, violating the Temporal Prime Directive and risking irreparable damage to the timestream? 01:23:10 Admiral: I plead the Fifth. 01:23:20 zzo38: I see. 01:23:26 zzo38: It's ... TeXy. 01:23:59 zzo38: Looks quite cool. 01:24:12 The \expandafter command is a useful command in TeX. Also strange things such as \catcode110=14 01:24:32 Is \catcode110=14 more strange or less strange than using prompt().toString() in JavaScript? 01:25:14 It's ... what? 01:25:26 Are apples more or less strange than trees? 01:26:02 Crusher: It's just to underline the weird temporal properties of the anomaly. We'll also be killing Ogawa's baby to make that point. 01:26:08 alise: Yes it is written using TeX, it uses Plain TeX. Newfangle is written in LaTeX and requires no separate program to weave (weave is implemented as a set of LaTeX macros), but it uses a seperate program written in awk for tangle. yesweb is written entirely in Plain TeX and doesn't require anything else. 01:26:30 alise: I don't know if apples more/less strange than trees? But is that relevant? I don't actually know if it is relevant or not 01:27:05 is there any material on how to use TeX as a general-purpose programming language? without the typesetting crud? 01:27:29 ... 01:27:30 olsner: I don't know. But I might have partially done so in yesweb (so look at that for an example) 01:27:58 Borg: We're Borg. Get assimilated. Resistance sucks. 01:27:59 Janeway: Our armoured ship will now kick your collective butt. 01:27:59 Borg: Oh, fiddlesticks. 01:28:07 olsner: <3 you for just /thinking/ that 01:28:21 Resistance is futile (if less than 1ohm) 01:28:21 alise: :) 01:28:47 \loop ... \ifnum \foo < n \repeat 01:28:56 First TeX control structure I have now learned :P 01:29:15 Is "\advance \x by 1" Plain TeX or an intrinsic? 01:29:32 It is built-in. 01:29:46 It is easy to check: Start TeX and then enter "\show\advance" at the prompt and it will tell you. 01:30:13 coppro: haha, someone made Voyager Virtual Season 8/9 01:30:33 alise: this is brilliant 01:30:37 \loop is not built-in, however. 01:30:57 hmm, \catcode is some kind of tr applied to ... the input? do tex programs have input? 01:31:16 olsner: \catcode is applied any more of the program that it reads itself. 01:31:24 It also affects \read and \write commands. 01:31:35 What's the one with the time loop? 01:31:53 [TNG] 01:31:53 zzo38: how do you declare a variable in tex? 01:31:54 \catcode is used to tell TeX what category the characters in the program belong to. 01:31:56 groundhog day-style time loop? 01:32:01 olsner, yesish 01:32:08 alise: You can't, however, you can do a few similar things. 01:32:09 every damn scifi needs to have one of those episodes... 01:32:26 olsner: of course 01:32:45 alise: \newcount \newbox and so on allocate registers and assign names to them. 01:32:55 Found it 01:32:58 Cause and Effect 01:33:07 You can also assign meanings to control sequences, and create macros. 01:33:09 zzo38: ok, so catcode32=9 says that spaces are in "category 9"? rather than mapping spaces to tabs? 01:33:19 ! Paragraph ended before \loop was complete. 01:33:20 Sniff. 01:33:21 char c(char j, char dln5, char b1, char v7) { 01:33:22 while(!531 / 623 != 428 < 913) { 01:33:22 yf5(802-66); 01:33:22 }; 01:33:22 } 01:33:24 olsner: Yes. That is what \catcode32=9 means. 01:33:25 oops 01:33:27 sry 01:33:56 http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/fiver.php?ep=causeandeffect 01:33:59 zzo38: so 01:34:02 \newcount \n 01:34:03 then later 01:34:05 \advance \n by 1? 01:34:11 alise: Yes. 01:34:22 *\loop \n \advance \n by 1 \ifnum \n < 10 \repeat 01:34:22 ! Missing number, treated as zero. 01:34:22 Hmm. 01:34:27 That creates a integer register and increments the value. 01:34:53 alise: You can't use \n directly, you have to either assign a value or use it as a parameter. Try entering \the\n after \loop instead of just \n by itself. 01:35:25 Does it start at 0 or 1/ 01:35:26 *or 1? 01:35:40 It starts at zero unless you explicitly tell it otherwise. 01:35:44 ...also, can I assign it with \n=1? 01:35:48 Or is it \newcount \n=1? 01:35:56 alise: Assign it with \n=1 01:36:17 These things don't make good episode summaries 01:36:26 Also, you need to print a space after each number, so put \space after \the\n 01:36:51 zzo38: Does it have to be \the every single time I mention n, ever? 01:36:55 Even in ifnum? 01:37:19 alise: No. 01:37:34 When do I need \the, then? 01:38:05 You need \the whenever it is not expecting a register, and you have to instead convert it to a string to print it. 01:38:30 \the just converts the value of whatever register comes after it to a string 01:38:57 Yay, my program works! 01:38:59 \newcount \n 01:38:59 \loop 01:38:59 \the\n \space 01:38:59 \advance \n by 1 01:38:59 \ifnum \n < 10 \repeat 01:40:05 alise: Now you learned. 01:40:10 Indeed I did. 01:40:16 Is there a while loop rather than a do/while? 01:41:14 alise: Yes, just put the condition at the top immediately after \loop instead of immediately before \repeat I think that will work too 01:41:47 Are while or do/while loops more common/idiomatic? 01:42:27 alise: I don't actually know, but I think the condition at the end is more common in TeX, as far as I know. 01:42:44 loop 01:42:48 the n space 01:42:51 advance n by 1 01:42:53 ifnum n < 10 repeat 01:43:02 So, if you removed the \s and replaced "the" with $... 01:43:21 newcount n 01:43:21 loop 01:43:21 $n space 01:43:21 advance n by 1 01:43:21 ifnum n < 10 repeat 01:43:21 bye 01:43:25 Yup, TeX is pretty normal. :P 01:44:47 I had better sleep. 01:45:17 Huh, TeX's programming stuff isn't as awful as I thought. 01:45:34 It's a bit poor, but... I can actually imagine using that. 01:45:38 pikhq: How awful did you think it was? 01:46:04 zzo38: Along the lines of "It's TC by accident". 01:47:30 Goodnight. 01:47:37 Bye. 01:47:38 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:47:58 pikhq: It still has only 256 registers of each kind, though. And to do more advanced stuff you will have to learn some things about \expandafter and \csname and various other thing, because it does work differently, a bit. 01:48:21 zzo38: Still, it appears to be not 100% revolting. 01:48:34 (You can see the codes for yesweb to see how a full program is written) 01:48:44 pikhq: I also think it is not 100% revolting 01:49:35 http://www.explosm.net/comics/2130/ Hahahahaha this comic is exactly why I read C&H 01:49:41 It's sub-par, but eh. 70s language being usable suffices. :P 01:56:02 I want to figure out if there is some way to do something at each word boundary 01:56:23 is it a good thing or a bad thing that to stop my media player, I do 'killall ogg123'? 02:00:14 coppro: If done as a normal user, quite a mundane thing. 02:00:27 Overkill, but mundane. 02:05:50 Do you think yesweb is better or worse than noweb and Newfangle? 02:06:40 (I have tested yesweb, and it does work. So don't complain that it doesn't work.) 02:07:49 Gregor: Yes, that is about it. :) 02:10:58 How strange do you consider prompt().toString() to be in JavaScript, anyways? (I have used this) 02:13:20 What's the point of the toString() bit? 02:13:26 * Sgeo_ isn't exactly a Javascript expert 02:13:45 Sgeo_: Yes, that is the part that seems strange 02:13:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:13:58 But it does actually have a use there (even though the return value of prompt() is already a string) 02:14:00 JavaScript will coerce things to strings on its own quite often, but not always. Anyway without context I can't judge whether that's strange. 02:14:34 Gregor: Yes it does, but the return of prompt() is already a string anyways! 02:14:49 zzo38: String.prototype.toString is id. 02:15:38 Not that that's really an answer :P 02:15:49 Gregor: Yes, it is, but there is still a reason for prompt().toString() see if you can think of it. 02:15:54 (If you cannot, I can answer you) 02:16:17 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 02:16:26 Oh, I forgot that prompt() is a builtin function, doy. 02:16:37 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 02:16:38 I don't know what prompt() returns if you close it without hitting OK, probably null. 02:16:47 And if that's the case, then it doesn't always return a string. Not sure though. 02:16:56 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 02:18:42 Gregor: Yes you are right about that. And do you know what null.toString() does? 02:19:06 Off the top of my head, I suspect it's one of: "", "null" or maybe "0" 02:19:29 All wrong. 02:19:31 Ohwait 02:19:33 Except it's null X-P 02:19:37 So that throws an exception. 02:19:48 Yes, right. 02:20:13 Now do you understand what prompt().toString() is for? Hopefully now you do. 02:20:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 02:21:13 Seems like a silly way to coerce an exception out of that though ... 02:21:14 Why would you want to blow up and die just because some moron didn't click Ok? 02:21:21 Egg-zactly. 02:21:33 * Sgeo_ blows up and dies Gregor 02:22:15 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 02:23:42 * Sgeo_ will be watching Futurama in approx 38 min 02:24:11 Thank you for the update. 02:24:18 Please keep us apprised of all Futurama-related news. 02:24:30 Good news everybody! 02:25:00 pikhq: Well played, sir. Well played. 02:25:41 pikhq: hey, that's a registered trademark! 02:41:42 coppro: Genericisation bitch. 02:47:44 "the process scheduler in Squeak/Pharo just isn't built to handle a crazy amount of threads" 02:47:49 Opposite of Erlang then? 02:48:16 lol 02:57:57 * pikhq looks at new cell phones 03:00:29 And... I was wrong about the day of the week 03:13:21 Was about to ask if I should consider Self, but: 03:13:22 "we would be very interested in anyone prepared to make a Windows port." 03:28:00 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 03:30:40 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:48:02 -!- MizardX- has joined. 03:51:49 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:52:00 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 03:52:14 ok peeps 03:52:18 im in florida, on comcast 03:52:23 give some stuff to torrent 03:52:23 :D 03:59:18 Porn. Don't even need torrent. 03:59:36 The Internet *is* for it. 04:04:38 Clearly he is downloading porn even as we speak. 04:04:42 A true trooper. 04:05:26 i am download linguist porn 04:05:36 ... how dull X-P 04:05:44 And non-bandwidth-consuming. 04:06:50 Gregor: It's *cunning* linguist porn, at least. 04:06:50 > Gregor.OS 04:07:05 pikhq: Hyuk 04:07:10 pikhq: yes, it features noam chomsky and tanya reinhart. 04:07:42 kratzer comes in for a lesbian scene somewhere along the way 04:07:51 Gregor! 04:07:53 whats your OS :| 04:08:00 Oh, is that what that was supposed to mean. 04:08:04 ofcourse 04:08:05 Debian via sidux. 04:08:13 ok you're no use to me then. 04:08:23 :'( 04:08:27 I'M STILL A MAN, DAMN IT 04:08:40 i was going to ask if you wanted to toy around with an app me and some friends are making 04:08:48 see what kind of fun plugins for it you could make 04:08:49 but nevermind 04:09:13 ... You use OS X? 04:09:15 UNCLEAN 04:09:18 yes 04:09:19 very clean 04:09:20 :D 04:09:32 Even my soon-to-be-had phone shall run Linux! 04:09:35 :P 04:09:57 android? 04:10:17 <3 Android 04:10:42 Palm WebOS, actually. 04:10:51 ... 04:10:54 Fail. 04:11:03 Gregor: $0.00 is not fail 04:14:45 I've read good things about the UI 04:16:18 It uses the freaking Konami code to unlock it! 04:19:29 I think that's an auto-win 04:19:33 * coppro ducks 04:20:54 holy crap yesss 04:20:57 achievement unlocked 2 04:27:58 -!- MizardX- has joined. 04:31:58 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:32:26 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 04:53:01 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:08:00 -!- MizardX- has joined. 05:12:16 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:12:30 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 05:19:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:48:16 -!- MizardX- has joined. 05:52:16 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:52:46 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 06:28:14 -!- MizardX- has joined. 06:32:03 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:32:13 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 06:47:35 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:54:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:56:41 -!- cheater99 has joined. 07:12:19 -!- MizardX has quit (Quit: reboot). 07:17:45 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:24:30 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:26:42 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:27:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:29:34 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:31:03 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:34:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:36:54 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:37:07 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:39:52 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:01 -!- tombom has joined. 09:11:00 Crusher: Computer, what just happened? 09:11:00 Computer: The spherical universe we occupy is collapsing. Its periphery has just obliterated the forward edge of the ship's saucer section. 09:11:00 Crusher: Does that mean that Ten-Forward is now the Restaurant at the End of The Universe? 09:11:00 Computer: Very well put. 09:19:16 Riker: Cry me a river. Data, Worf, go get a shuttle ready and finalize your wills. Wesley, bring me fifteen kilos of tissue paper. 09:19:16 Wesley: Why, sir? 09:19:16 Riker: In case Deanna takes me literally 09:20:21 <3 09:24:05 * Sgeo__ is rather upset at the Five-Minute Stargate link not working 09:24:46 Well, there's one ep: http://www.fiveminute.net/stargate/eps/2010.htm 09:24:52 There may be more, I guess 09:25:37 Hansen: You're just such a screwup. 09:25:37 Riker: Yes, sir. 09:25:37 Hansen: Oh, and I promote you to Captain. 09:25:38 Riker: Yes, sir. 09:26:54 Meh, the 5min Stargate ep was boring 09:27:38 the arrakkis line is good 09:28:22 Not referring to the movie one 09:28:26 I liked that one 09:28:33 Was referring to the 2010 ep 09:30:20 oh 09:30:24 Crusher: Jean-Luc? Are you in there? 09:30:24 Locutus: Foolish human. Picard no longer exists. 09:30:24 Crusher: Oh, fine. Can I get you a drink? 09:30:25 Locutus: Tea, Earl Grey, hot. --Dammit! 09:33:02 :D 09:36:27 I am convinced that Smalltalk would have been the best language for this project 09:36:34 But yeah... 09:38:06 Why am I awake? 09:38:19 nobody knows 10:03:17 -!- AnMaster has joined. 10:11:26 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:12:32 -!- comex has joined. 10:22:28 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:27:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:32:27 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:32:40 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:32:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:35:30 -!- comex has joined. 10:38:21 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 10:38:23 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:39:23 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:55:30 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:00:32 -!- comex has joined. 11:07:31 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:09:08 -!- comex has joined. 11:12:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:34:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:47:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:23:25 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split). 12:27:16 -!- jcp has joined. 13:00:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:00:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:13:39 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:20:47 -!- comex has joined. 13:26:03 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:28:36 -!- comex has joined. 13:34:05 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:36:33 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:37:25 -!- mquin_ has joined. 13:43:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:44:29 -!- comex has joined. 13:44:30 -!- comex has quit (Excess Flood). 13:45:18 -!- comex has joined. 13:45:51 -!- mquin has quit (Quit: Changing server). 13:54:07 -!- mquin_ has changed nick to mquin. 14:02:12 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 14:07:55 -!- mquin has left (?). 14:18:08 Yes, and PCRE throws errors when it hits these limits. PHP interprets these errors as successes. 14:18:24 if anyone ever asks me what's wrong with PHP, I now have this to refer to 14:19:56 hmm, better version of the same quote by the same person: 14:20:00 PHP doesn't handle the error PCRE sends out sanely. If PCRE hits the backtrack limit (which is by default set to 10000000 backtracks, much higher than php's alteration), then PCRE throws an error -- PCRE_ERROR_MATCHLIMIT -- which PHP should throw for the code to handle, instead of quietly succeeding. 14:20:50 `eval factor 22201 14:20:51 No output. 14:20:58 `help 14:20:59 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 14:21:04 `run factor 22201 14:21:06 22201: 149 149 14:26:13 `factor 22201 14:26:14 22201: 149 149 14:27:21 Huh, found fax. 14:37:46 -!- deathmoniac has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:39:00 -!- deathmoniac has joined. 14:57:03 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:57:37 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:58:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 14:58:04 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 15:03:44 -!- comex has joined. 15:08:16 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:09:09 -!- comex has joined. 15:12:36 -!- Flonk has joined. 15:30:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:32:12 -!- songhead95 has joined. 15:32:32 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:33:25 whats the egobot command symbol? 15:33:35 ! 15:33:37 !help 15:33:37 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 15:33:40 -!- comex has joined. 15:38:01 -!- relet has joined. 15:40:55 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:46:50 how do you run on hackego 15:48:54 !bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 15:49:02 oh, that's egobot 15:49:10 hackego isn't really good for running languages 15:49:15 also, where's egobot gone? 15:51:12 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:51:17 -!- songhead95 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:52:00 -!- comex has joined. 15:59:04 It's run away to join the circus! 16:00:36 I always knew it was flighty *sigh* 16:00:48 !help 16:00:48 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 16:00:56 hmm, maybe I just messed up my program? 16:01:00 !bf_txtgen test 16:01:02 Also, its !bf interpreter doesn't accept !input :P 16:01:08 61 +++++++++++++[>+>+++++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>>-.>---.<-.+.<---. [48] 16:01:33 Gregor: aha 16:01:36 it always used to, didn't it? 16:01:40 or was that fungot? 16:01:41 ais523: table fnord. they who should have been otherwise. nor is there any form of popular election were supposed to be right, i am not sure as to which st. paul suggests a reference to paley on this subject. 16:02:27 Must've been fungot. 16:02:29 Gregor: great britain had a tammany and a croker a good while before he or his family settle again to their business. their heads were stuck upon spears, and led the procession; whilst the royal captives who followed in the reign of henry viii., or fnord. 16:02:53 !bf +++++++++++++[>+>+++++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>>-.>---.<-.+.<---. 16:02:53 test 16:03:32 Does anybody have any idea what tipjar.com is, other than a web site which was founded in 1996 and clearly hasn't been updated since 1996? 16:08:34 Fungot's ^bf takes !input, yes. And if you ^def foo bf bar, it will internally rewrite "^foo baz" to "^bf bar!baz". 16:13:39 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:15:07 -!- comex has joined. 16:17:48 Last night I managed to get my Eightebed compiler (written in Python) to emit C that actually compiles. Got a fair way along with the static validity analyzer too. All that's left is to finish that, write the runtime support (the most important part :/ ), and write a test suite, I guess. 16:19:27 go go Eightebed! 16:24:51 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:27:03 -!- comex has joined. 16:32:50 -!- derdon has joined. 16:36:18 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:38:18 -!- comex has joined. 16:39:21 I'm trying to read the source for Epigram (literate Haskell). I should probably stop because I don't know enough about type theory to tell when they're joking or not. 16:52:40 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:53:47 -!- comex has joined. 16:59:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:02:00 -!- AnMaster has joined. 17:02:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:04:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:07:11 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 17:11:02 So, does anybody have any idea what tipjar.com is, other than a site that clearly hasn't changed since its founding in 1996? 17:11:35 I don't, or I'd have answered earlier 17:11:40 although I do vaguely recognise the name 17:12:06 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:12:59 ais523, you saw that url? 17:13:01 how strange 17:13:29 ais523: I wouldn't have seen it earlier, hence reasking X-P 17:13:49 I meant, he filter urls 17:13:56 in his irc client 17:28:29 Gregor-P: One might think that is a "yes-no" question, until one notices the universal quantification in it, making it a "yes-not me" question. 17:28:37 Gregor-P: Also: Not me. 17:29:26 Er, actually existential quantification I guess. 17:29:42 Thanks for the breakdown, now gimme some Eightebed so I cab break it :P 17:32:21 Gregor-P, s/cab/can/ ? 17:32:59 Nope, I'm going to drive a taxi into it. 17:34:55 XD 17:35:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:35:17 Gregor-P, what is "Eightebed", _no_ google hits here 17:35:31 it suggests eightcubed though 17:35:33 oerjan, hi 17:35:50 cpressey: Congrats, you found a totally unique name. 17:36:41 yo, Americans 17:36:46 Gregor-P, huh? 17:36:49 sadly google is _disgustingly_ bad at crawling for entirely new esolangs 17:36:51 Gregor-P: Actually, alise found it. With her iPhone. But, like "Befunge", I recognized the significance of the word as a language name. 17:36:55 "Puss, despite that it is intended to be a small tool, is still in early stage." is this sentence correct ? 17:36:55 ah 17:36:59 it's an esolang? 17:37:18 nooga: Nope. 17:37:23 why? 17:37:27 AnMaster: shocking, isn't it? what are people _doing_ in this channel? 17:37:30 actually, when refreshing I get one hit 17:37:47 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 17:38:00 and that one hit is: [PDF] Allegheny County Medical Society [...] Pittsburgh and the eightebed [...] 17:38:29 nooga: First I will attempt to formulate a "correct" version, then I will attempt to diff them."Puss, although intended to be a small tool, is still in an early stage." 17:38:42 That's a bit wonky at the end, maybe want "of development" 17:38:49 (Not a correctness issue, just a clarity issue) 17:38:55 Gregor-W, btw did yesterday turn out to be the best of worlds? 17:38:58 as we talked about 17:39:19 AnMaster: YES but for totally different reasons, I didn't snag coding time :P 17:39:22 wrt. microcosm that is... 17:41:12 nooga: Hmmm, OK, your "despite" clause, upon further thought, is probably correct, but very awkward, as you've assigned Puss the pronoun "it" in a clause before even getting to the action verb. 17:41:33 nooga: "despite that it is ..." sounds stilted in english, especially as an adjectival phrase 17:42:05 i think "despite being ..." would be the usual phrasing, except that would give you two "being" there... 17:42:08 nooga: "is still in early stage" just needs to be "an early stage", unless "early stage" is actually the name of a stage, not just a description. 17:42:46 Also, I'll just put forth that the whole sentence is kinda weird; although intended to be small, it's in an early stage of development? Are these two things related? 17:42:52 what about: "Puss, although intended to be a small tool, is still even smaller than that" 17:42:53 Gregor-W, ^ 17:42:59 er, one "being" and one "to be", which still would be awkward 17:43:02 I approve. 17:43:11 :) 17:43:56 alternatively it might be way too large 17:44:03 depends on which way you are goingf 17:44:04 Although oddly if you put the adjectival phrase first, the awkwardness with "it" diminishes: ""Despite that it is intended to be a small tool, Puss is still in [an] early stage [of development]." Perfectly fine to me. 17:44:06 going* 17:44:35 cpressey: That is an interesting observation, AND true. 17:44:49 Gregor-W, cpressey, if "early stage" is actually a name of a stage I would suggest using title case for it 17:44:56 to make it less confusing 17:44:57 Yup 17:45:02 I might use "Despite [the fact] that it is..." but that's my own preference for being wordy, I think 17:45:07 PUSS IS A SMALL TOOL 17:45:12 cpressey: Naw, I'd do that too. 17:45:26 cpressey: I might even say "In spite of the fact that it is" 17:45:38 nooga: :P 17:45:50 cpressey, you call that wordy? Bah, nothing compared to the wordiness we had when _I_ was young. 17:46:09 We had to use a shovel to dig our way through it! 17:46:23 what? 17:46:30 oh right 17:46:32 monty 17:46:43 pretty obviously so 17:46:51 O English! What mortal couldst tame thy hirsute naughtiness? 17:47:02 cpressey, "hirsute"? 17:47:18 this spell checker accepts the word however 17:47:25 and I noticed yesterday that it didn't like "movie" 17:47:28 so hm 17:47:47 I suspect en_GB might be rather outdated on this system 17:48:09 Now 'round yonder we ain't gettin' y'all's Queen's English wit' yer "hirsutes" n' yer "couldsts". 17:48:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:49:07 Gregor-W used CONFUSION. 17:49:11 It was super effective. 17:49:20 that's my only comment to that line. 17:50:19 I only know "hirsute" because it was on a list of "words you should study to do well on the verbal portion of the GRE", and shortly thereafter I actually heard it used, in an episode of Dr. Who. 17:50:34 DOCTOR WHO 17:51:10 People who contract the "Doctor" in "Doctor Who" are the WORST kind of people. 17:52:00 Fine, DOCTOR WHO. Anyway, I've noticed that happens a lot -- you learn a word, then suddenly hear it used. It's probably some kind of psychological trick, like, you heard the word before, but you didn't know what it meant, so you didn't retain the memory the same way. 17:52:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:52:11 But "hirsute"? I dunno, man. That was a weird coincidence. 17:53:18 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:55:40 if you look like you're wearing a hair suit, you might be hirsute. 17:59:02 oerjan, do you? 18:00:13 not particularly. 18:02:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:03:16 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 18:03:37 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 18:08:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:10:17 i think i'm going to watch an episode of doctor who right now 18:10:42 And I'm going to play NetHack. 18:11:06 Fun fact: zapping an unknown wand at yourself is not a very good idea. 18:12:48 Phantom_Hoover, how many times have you ascended? 18:12:57 AnMaster, none. 18:13:01 hm 18:13:08 I've never gotten past Sokoban, actually. 18:14:26 I've reached Minetown once or twice, but I've always died before getting back to the main dungeon. 18:15:03 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:19:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:23:30 AnMaster, have you ever ascended? 18:25:00 Phantom_Hoover, yes, several times 18:25:10 AnMaster, *glower* 18:26:27 currently I'm playing an extinctionism game. Quite close to that objective. If I have kept an accurate count almost everything except & A and D are either extinct or genocided by now 18:27:00 Can you genocide D? 18:27:22 well, I don't have any such scroll handy currently 18:27:33 besides, extinction is more proper than genocide 18:27:58 just used genocide for buggers like mind flayers and arch liches 18:28:27 atm I'm using cursed scrolls of create monster in a boulder fort to create lots of dragons 18:38:48 yay, D and A done I think 18:39:00 I can't eat kittens‽ Even ones that aren't my pet? 18:39:15 Phantom_Hoover, you could eat their corpses? 18:39:34 I thought I could, but it tells me that I think eating it was a bad idea. 18:39:47 I thought that meant a luck penalty. 18:42:15 Ah, telepathy... 18:42:20 do you still have the corpse? 18:42:28 No, my kitten ate it. 18:42:47 Why my kitten wasn't done for cannibalism I do not know 18:47:45 OK, reached Sokoban. 18:50:37 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 18:52:06 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 18:56:51 Well, now my kitten has died of terminal stupidity. 19:01:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:01:56 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 19:02:16 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 19:03:01 "Fruit comprehensions? They're like list comprehensions, but for fruit." 19:03:27 Beh. Stupid kitten. 19:11:11 cpressey, well, it *walked* into a *pit*. 19:11:12 Phantom_Hoover, I find that the initial pet mostly gets in your way. I prefer pets from various figurines and eggs later on. I mean, a black dragon as a pet definitely beats a kitten by far. It doesn't just steal from shops, it kills the shop keeper (always leave that to strong pets, never do it yourself) 19:11:24 Phantom_Hoover, what class are you playing? 19:11:29 AnMaster, wiz. 19:11:31 why 19:11:40 No idea. 19:11:47 Seemed like a good idea 19:12:00 At first, then I've never been bothered to change, 19:12:02 Phantom_Hoover, it is a bad choice if you never ascended. I would go for val. I did my first ascension with val and also the majority of them 19:12:36 cpressey: well if Fruit is a Monad, you can use do blocks for that purpose 19:13:00 especially if you die before the quest. Because val is much stronger at low levels than wiz. wiz is only really good for the latter half of the game 19:13:02 alas, monad comprehensions were abolished in Haskell 98 19:13:56 Neat, cone of cold goes through boulders. 19:14:00 Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps it thought it was a Wumpus. 19:14:22 cpressey, perhaps. 19:15:47 oerjan: Not even available as one of those optional pragma things? 19:15:51 Phantom_Hoover, sokoban? Be careful of the luck penalties 19:15:56 AnMaster, precisely. 19:16:25 There was a monster behind a boulder which wouldn't move. 19:22:34 cpressey: hm maybe it's been added recently - i think it was said they'd add it if someone made a patch 19:23:33 oerjan: I'm having a hard time seeing how "do" *isn't* a monad comprehension, actually 19:23:55 yes, do notation and comprehensions are equivalent 19:24:11 -!- tombom has joined. 19:24:19 So, just a syntax thing? 19:25:28 Anyway, I'm sick of people asking me to define fruit in terms of monads, so I refuse to comply! 19:26:10 hm i cannot find it in the ghc's language option list 19:26:32 there are two options for comprehensions, but none extends it to monads 19:27:43 both do notation and list comprehensions are syntactic sugar 19:29:23 oerjan: Oh, while we're on the subject, there's something that's been on my mind for a while 19:29:32 hm? 19:30:17 I think I've heard that monads in Haskell are "strict in the first argument'. Is this true? Is this a necessary quality of monads? And is this the real reason why they can be used for IO? 19:30:31 cpressey, no. 19:30:34 it's untrue, in fact it varies by monad 19:31:27 IO is strict in the first argument (to >>=), but e.g. Reader is strict in the second 19:32:11 OK. Would it be true that a monad that has to match "the outside world" as it were, would have to be strict in at least one argument? 19:33:10 well eschewing concurrency, all haskell evaluation would generally need one of the arguments first, if any 19:34:23 I don't think that's the meaning of "strict" I'm thinking of. 19:35:01 hm wait that's not true if you use seq, either 19:36:46 generally in a >>= f it would be harmless to evaluate the _function_ f, i think, so it doesn't have to be precisely strict in the first one 19:37:01 I'm basically trying to figure out if there is something inherent about monads that lets them define evaluation order, or whether they're just "carriers" for something else (something like seq, yeah) that defines the evaluation order. 19:37:20 cpressey, carriers 19:37:27 the inherent thing about monads is that they force _data flow_, i think 19:37:46 Yeah, they force data flow. They absolutely do not (in general) force evaluation order. 19:37:59 Well, no more so than any other set of functions can. 19:38:28 (any function can effectively force evaluation order just with seq or judicious pattern matching, after all) 19:39:00 OK. That helps clarify it. Thank you all. 19:39:22 seq can be simulated with pattern matching whenever its left argument is of a known algebraic data type, incidentally 19:40:22 (just do any match that forces actually finding the top constructor) 19:42:34 !haskell let loop = Nothing >> loop in loop :: Maybe () 19:42:40 Nothing 19:44:55 !haskell import Control.Monad.Reader; loop = loop >> ask; main = print $ runReader loop "Poof!" 19:44:58 "Poof!" 19:49:15 Actually, I'm not sure it's any clearer. 19:49:31 !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; test = tell [1] >> undefined >> tell undefined; main = print $ (head output, result) where (output, result) = runWriter test 19:49:33 cpressey, do you know how >>= and return work? 19:50:03 hm it's backwards 19:50:12 !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; test = tell [1] >> undefined >> tell undefined; main = print $ (head output, result) where (result, output) = runWriter test 19:50:15 (1,()) 19:50:49 Phantom_Hoover: I thought I did several times. I can never seem to retain a coherent mental model of how they work, though. 19:51:01 cpressey: the last is an example of a Monad where _part_ of the monad value is strict in the first argument to >>, and _part_ is strict in the second :) 19:53:32 !haskell :t return 19:53:33 return :: (Monad m) => a -> m a 19:53:40 !haskell :t (>>=) 19:53:41 (>>=) :: (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 19:54:24 These must satisfy the axioms that (return x) >>= f == f x, 19:54:50 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:55:10 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 19:55:30 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 19:55:41 m >>= return == m, and (m >>= f) >>= g == m >>= (\x -> (f x >>= g)) 19:55:48 I have no idea if that helps. 19:56:01 Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't. 19:56:49 Didn't think so... 19:57:48 That's the whole problem with the didacticism of monads. Just stating the definition of something does very little to help one understand it. 19:57:53 cpressey, return "puts" a value into a monad, >>= takes it "out" and applies it to its second argument. 20:00:35 The first law is clearer with do notation. The second is hairy without Kleisli arrows. 20:01:35 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:02:03 (with that, we get the monad laws as: return >=> g == g, f >=> return == f, (f >=> g) >=> h == f >=> (g >=> h)) 20:02:21 BTW, >=> :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c 20:02:28 m >=> n = \x -> do { y <- m x; n y } 20:02:45 See, it's nice and clean that way. Sadly, not much help. 20:07:01 pikhq, what's >=> in terms of >>= and/or return? 20:08:09 It would be even cleaner (but probably still not much help) if the operators were visually distinct instead of being combinations of arrows and lines. Thank you, ASCII. 20:08:36 m >=> n = \x -> m x >>= n 20:08:50 OK. 20:09:04 cpressey, are you still confused? 20:09:20 (after mentally applying the de-sugaring, and then a simple reduction) 20:09:46 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but never mind. 20:11:38 cpressey: Would it make you feel better to know that you don't have to understand any of this to use Haskell? 20:12:00 pikhq: Not exactly, since I've written several nontrivial programs in Haskell. 20:12:09 It's most relevant when you're wondering if you could make a datatype a monad. 20:13:40 I tend to just avoid monads and write any I/O code that I have to do in cargo cult fashion. 20:14:41 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad_Laws Perhaps this helps? 20:15:14 If it doesn't, you can conclude that monads are burritos and call it a day. 20:15:15 :P 20:18:47 someone asked me about monads the other day... I tried to explain, but he lost interest after 5 minutes 20:21:53 I really need an "monads in minutes" explanation :p 20:22:27 a monotone monologue on monads, measurable in minutes 20:23:25 well, I did ask some rhetorical questions 20:24:13 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:25:07 Mathnerd314: Well, I can offer this piece of advice: don't just recite the monad laws. 20:25:26 yeah, I didn't try that 20:26:16 -!- jcp has joined. 20:34:26 okay 20:34:30 let's try 20:34:39 Mathnerd314: what are these monads anyway? 20:34:57 that's exactly what the guy asked me 20:35:22 !haskell [] >> undefined :: [()] 20:35:27 [] 20:36:18 and I pulled up this page: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html 20:36:24 and started working through it 20:36:58 and then he stopped paying attention and talked about other things :-( 20:37:30 It's kind of a boring blog post 20:38:40 yeah, I need something exciting and/or short 20:38:52 maybe I should have asked on #haskell first 20:39:09 then I could have let them explain :p 20:39:15 Monads are not the only things in Haskell that I essentially can't think in. I also can't think in pointfree form. 20:40:57 I do pointfree by default o_O 20:43:32 Yeah -- I guess I'm just stupid. 20:46:50 Pointfree form? 20:49:23 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree 20:50:36 In contrast, a lot of the time I don't even use fold -- I write the folding into my function. 20:50:56 yeah, I tend to use recursion instead of combinators 20:51:01 cpressey, NIH to the max! 20:51:49 I wouldn't call it NIH exactly, but it is the same kind of thing probably. 20:51:59 I like to call it "pointless style" 20:52:09 'Twas facetious. 20:52:12 well, unless you've memorized them, the higher-order functions are rather hard to discover 20:54:10 cpressey: you're not the first one to use that term :) 20:55:01 (in fact lambdabot's command for generating it is @pl) 20:56:03 pl \a (b,c) -> a c b =====> (`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip 20:56:09 Love that one. 20:56:31 eek 20:56:32 you can probably write it more nicely 20:56:58 What is `ap`? 20:57:08 GHCi says it doesn't exist. 20:57:14 monadic version of <*> 20:57:19 it's in Control.Monad 20:57:35 Control.Applicative too (which has <*>) 20:57:59 cpressey: uncurry . flip, i think 20:58:29 @pl afair is not very smart with simplifications 20:58:55 or wait is that curry or uncurry 20:59:10 !haskell (curry . flip) (+) (1,2) 20:59:23 !haskell (uncurry . flip) (+) (1,2) 20:59:25 3 20:59:37 uncurry was right 21:00:44 cpressey: i think many of ghc's optimization rules for lists depend on using fold/map style rather than explicit recursion 21:01:27 if you want it to remove intermediate lists 21:02:22 Joy. Oh well. 21:09:23 !haskell import Control.Monad.State.Strict; main = flip runState 1 $ put 2 >> undefined >> put 3 21:09:41 !haskell import Control.Monad.State.Strict; main = print . flip runState 1 $ put 2 >> undefined >> put 3 21:09:44 input.19732.hs: Prelude.undefined 21:09:53 thought so 21:10:13 so the strict State monad is essentially strict in _both_ arguments 21:10:39 !haskell import Control.Monad.State.Lazy; main = print . flip runState 1 $ put 2 >> undefined >> put 3 21:10:41 ((),3) 21:17:15 !haskell :t undefined 21:17:16 undefined :: a 21:17:24 !haskell undefined 21:17:26 *** Exception: Prelude.undefined 21:17:57 it's a most undefined value :D 21:18:05 OK, that helps explain what the heck you were doing 21:19:08 the definition of a strict function f is that f undefined is undefined :) 21:20:58 oerjan, what about f _ = undefined? 21:21:05 It's non-strict. 21:21:09 heh :D 21:22:59 well mathematically it's indistinguishable from being strict 21:23:12 It is? 21:23:54 sure - how can you be sure it didn't look at its value before returning undefined? 21:24:45 !haskell let f _ = undefined; f (putStrLn "hello") 21:25:41 incidentally that function is the reason why haskell's seq breaks the eta conversion rule - \x -> undefined = \x -> undefined x but the latter is not undefined 21:26:21 Phantom_Hoover: that ; doesn't end the let block 21:26:43 oerjan, oh. 21:26:53 you need {} brackets in that case 21:27:04 !haskell let {f _ = undefined}; f (putStrLn "hello") 21:27:21 Parse error... 21:27:29 assuming EgoBot's !haskell even allows two ghci commands on a line 21:27:53 replacing ; with in should work 21:27:59 OK. 21:28:15 !haskell let f _ = undefined in putStrLn "Hello, world!" 21:28:16 Hello, world! 21:28:30 !haskell let f _ = undefined in f (putStrLn "Hello, world!") 21:28:31 *** Exception: Prelude.undefined 21:29:03 So it's non-strict. 21:29:14 um no 21:29:23 How? 21:29:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:29:58 that putStrLn "Hello, world!" wouldn't have been run even if f were non-strict, unless it actually returned it 21:30:12 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 21:30:31 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 21:30:42 evaluating an IO action does _not_ run it 21:31:08 oerjan, oh. What things have side-effects when evaluated, then? 21:31:23 !haskell (putStrLn "Hello, world!") `seq` "Boo!" 21:31:24 "Boo!" 21:31:37 unsafePerformIO :) 21:32:13 Where's that? 21:32:26 half the point of haskell's purity is that evaluation _has_ no side effects 21:32:39 System.IO.Unsafe 21:32:46 Excepting undefined/ 21:33:00 undefined is not a side-effect 21:33:56 oh well... it depends how you look at it, but mainly you say the result of the whole computation is undefined/bottom then 21:34:30 the addition of exceptions has messed things up a little bit 21:37:44 the theory they used is that the result of a pure computation could be either an ordinary value, or a set of possible exceptions 21:38:37 note that there is no way to distinguish different exceptions from inside _pure_ code - they can only be caught in the IO monad 21:41:16 there's at least one testing library for haskell which uses catching undefined exceptions to test whether functions are strict 21:43:44 evaluating an IO action does _not_ run it 21:44:14 main is a little bit special. Whatever it describes, gets run 21:44:18 I... oh, never mind 21:44:18 as that !haskell (putStrLn "Hello, world!") `seq` "Boo!" above proves 21:44:43 IO a is just a description of an IO action 21:45:06 !haskell putStrLn "X" 21:45:10 X 21:45:13 !haskell System.IO.Unsafe.unsafePerformIO (putStr "Hello, world!") `seq` "Boo!" 21:45:17 Hello, world!"Boo!" 21:46:29 !haskell let f _ = undefined in f $ System.IO.Unsafe.unsagePerformIO $ putStrLn "Hello, world!" 21:46:51 *f 21:46:55 !haskell let f _ = undefined in f $ System.IO.Unsafe.unsafePerformIO $ putStrLn "Hello, world!" 21:46:56 *** Exception: Prelude.undefined 21:47:33 !haskell [putStrLn "X"] 21:47:40 unsafePerformIO is not considered to be inside haskell's ordinary semantics :) 21:47:53 / 21:47:57 * Phantom_Hoover rolls eyes 21:48:01 Got a parse error 21:48:09 !haskell print [putStrLn "X"] 21:48:24 Another parse error 21:48:54 Sgeo__: the parse error was because it didn't work as a ghci command, so !haskell tried it as a module, which it doesn't parse at 21:49:17 !haskell let f _ = undefined in f (f) 21:49:18 *** Exception: Prelude.undefined 21:49:32 to get useful error messages in !haskell, you have to use the module form 21:49:52 (just prepend main = or main = print $ , mostly) 21:50:03 !haskell main = print [putStrLn "X"] 21:50:25 * oerjan bets on a missing Show instance for IO String 21:50:34 er 21:50:36 IO () 21:50:43 Yep 21:51:06 But at least that makes sense 21:51:17 !haskell length [putStrLn "X"] 21:51:19 1 21:51:27 in other words, it's a perfectly legal list, there's just no way defined for printing it 21:51:35 But putStrLn "X" wouldn't even have been evaluated there 21:51:59 The only thing that ever gets "evaluated" (barring unsafePerformIO trickery) is main 21:52:17 i don't think you _can_ get an IO action evaluated without running it unless you use seq 21:52:27 Noice 21:53:13 It's interesting how a beautiful mathematical framework can look all contrived and stuff once you turn it into a programming language 21:53:19 (or something equivalent to seq. pattern matching won't work since IO has no constructors) 21:53:52 !haskell length [ (putStrLn "X") `seq` () ] 21:53:54 1 21:54:10 Sgeo__: that still isn't even evaluated 21:54:29 however replace length with head 21:54:46 !haskell head [ (putStrLn "X") `seq` () ] 21:54:47 () 21:54:49 or even print 21:55:07 Wait 21:55:14 What does seq *do* with its first argument? 21:55:30 evaluates it to weak head normal form 21:55:36 !haskell print (undefined `seq` ()) 21:55:37 *** Exception: Prelude.undefined 21:55:56 which means the top constructor, for an ordinary data type 21:55:57 What does it do with the weak head normal form it gets? 21:56:05 throws it away :D 21:56:22 And evaluating an argument by definition has no side effects 21:56:42 cpressey: if it involves evaluating variables, the results are cached 21:56:51 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:57:02 Bah! seq is a hoax! 21:57:39 ok there is _one_ case where seq matters 21:57:50 I may have misspoken before 21:57:52 !haskell undefined `seq` "Test" 21:57:53 *** Exception: Prelude.undefined 21:58:46 cpressey: semantically seq does nothing other than check whether the first argument is undefined before returning the second 21:59:44 however this has the _practical_ consequence of evaluating the thunk for the first argument, with all usual caching results and plugging of memory leaks 22:00:08 Aren't monads essentially dependent types? 22:00:25 Phantom_Hoover: no... 22:00:38 .K 22:00:54 types don't depend on values in haskell, which is the definition of dependent typing 22:01:28 * Sgeo__ knows what monads are, but not much of what dependent types are 22:01:38 Oh, dependent on values rather than types. 22:02:11 Sgeo__, like oerjan said, they're types that depend on values. 22:02:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:03:04 So, a dependent type could be a number between 1 and 10? 22:03:06 Monads are dependent values. And seq is a hoax! 22:03:28 i recall someone noted once that ghc doesn't even guarantee evaluating a _first_ in a `seq` b 22:03:33 Sgeo__: Yes, (Number x) => x >= 1 && x <= 10 -- is an example. 22:03:35 What I should do is write a external program that you can pipe output of TeX into, so that it can interpret the output of \showbox and other things, and then allow you to re-read the reults using \read command and so on 22:04:17 ghc's strictness analysis could cause it to rearrange things 22:04:19 Are there any languages that use dependent types? 22:04:22 (What should I call this program?) 22:04:29 Sgeo__: Coq, Agda, Epigram 22:04:31 Sgeo__, Coq, Epigram, Agda. 22:04:43 Some others, but those are the big ones. 22:05:04 Coq is a mathematical proof thing, right? So I'll just skip it. What are Epigram and Agda like? 22:05:22 oerjan: Yeah, pseq is the one with that guarantee. 22:05:31 Sgeo__, mathematical proof things but slightly less so. 22:05:35 (Perhaps "pipetex" will do? Or do you have a better idea?) 22:06:33 Sgeo__: the thing is dependent typing basically forces you to do a lot of proving anyhow afaik 22:07:35 because you are basically allowing your types to be mathematical statements about the relationships of values, which must be proved to show the program is well-typed 22:07:54 Why is there no decent documentation for Epigram 2? 22:08:29 Phantom_Hoover: There's the literate Haskell source, formatted into a PDF. It's a real hoot. 22:08:51 So, it's not feasable to write a game in a dependent typing language? 22:08:58 Sgeo__, not really. 22:09:08 Sgeo__: Define "game"? 22:09:15 Why the heck would it not be? 22:09:19 cpressey: i recall from a previous comment that your last sentence there might _not_ be sarcasm? :D 22:09:34 ("It's a real hoot.") 22:09:53 oerjan: I think "a real hoot" has a complex and subtle meaning in my idiolect 22:09:58 Sgeo__, Coq, Agda and probably Epigram can't have recursive functions like in Haskell, so writing a game would be nigh-on impossible. 22:10:09 It is certainly enjoyable *on some level* to read. 22:10:15 Phantom_Hoover: codata codata codata 22:10:28 oerjan, yes, I know, but I don't know how that works. 22:11:19 Don't know how a facility works == there is no facility to do what that facility does? 22:11:34 for one thing, it allows you to represent processes that might go on forever, as long as finding the _next_ item always terminates 22:11:38 Phantom_Hoover: Even ignoring codata and such -- I'm pretty sure you could write some games without recursive functions. 22:11:52 cpressey, probably, I suppose. 22:12:01 Tic-tac-toe is total, for example. 22:12:06 indeed there are many games which terminate 22:12:14 Connect 4. 22:12:23 (more interesting than tic tac toe) 22:12:34 chess is also terminating 22:12:47 oerjan, point taken 22:12:53 cpressey, too, 22:12:53 Does finding the next item have to provably always terminate? 22:12:58 oerjan: only because there is a recursion limit :) 22:13:00 Sgeo__, yes. 22:15:17 cpressey: well yeah and also a 3-time repetition rule 22:16:57 oerjan, you can get around that with the Thue-Morse sequence and the knights. 22:17:07 Sgeo__: there is afaik also a trick you can do for nonterminating things - use a codata based monad of the form data Delay a = Now a | Later (Delay a) 22:17:33 I'm more familiar with Büchi automata than codata, but you could probably use them instead to model a process that is supposed to "never" terminate, like a web server. 22:17:48 Phantom_Hoover: are they really repeating _whole_ subgames? i always assumed it was just 3 repeating positions, at any time 22:18:21 Sgeo__: that way if a computation cannot be proved to terminate, you can just do pieces of it at a time 22:19:48 There is a 50-move rule in chess, also. 22:19:57 Sgeo__: anyway in dependent typing they like to have the default be that things always terminate, because otherwise you get trouble with checking the _proofs_ of things 22:20:01 (Although you could ignore that and other rules in some causes if you need to) 22:20:16 zzo38: i assumed that was what cpressey meant by recursion limit 22:20:24 only threefold reitition is required to make chess terminate 22:20:34 In any case, you're assuming that a termination checker will notice that all chess games terminate. 22:20:40 That's far from certain. 22:20:46 I think also only 50 moves is required as well 22:21:03 (that is to say that either rule will guarantee a conclusion 22:21:26 Phantom_Hoover: this being dependent typing, you probably have to write the proof yourself 22:22:21 oerjan, so noöne sane would write a chess game in it. 22:22:46 Funnily enough, noone sane is here 22:23:01 s/sane/who wasn't a masochist/ 22:23:38 Sgeo__: basically iiuc if your _proof_ is itself well-typed and is known to terminate, then you don't have to check it at runtime, but this breaks down if your proof may not terminate for all values 22:23:43 But all the masochists are too busy writing stuff in C++. 22:23:48 iiuc? 22:24:19 if i understand correctly 22:30:44 Heh, codata actually seems pretty neat. 22:31:08 it's like lazy data structures in a way 22:31:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 22:31:48 Very much so. 22:31:50 things still need to terminate, but only as far as you evaluate them 22:31:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:33:27 oerjan: What do you mean by "things"? 22:33:46 oerjan, how does coinduction work, then? 22:33:58 Now instead of C++ you have to write things in C+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-..... 22:35:08 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:37:36 cpressey: evaluations/pure computations? 22:38:06 Phantom_Hoover: um i think i'm getting close to over my head here... 22:38:38 hello sweethearts 22:38:45 is alise not here again. :< 22:39:09 but with induction you build things up by assembling a finite number of pieces 22:39:39 with coinduction you deconstruct things by taking them _apart_ to a finite level down 22:39:46 cheater99: seems accurate 22:40:32 oerjan: Is it the case that codata must be infinite? It seems like it should be (being the dual of data, which must be finite) 22:40:52 But apparently not? 22:41:06 cpressey: i don't think so, more like data is a subset of codata 22:41:26 k 22:42:02 like the rationals are a subset of the computable reals (i think if you use continued fraction representation, they _are_ precisely data and codata versions, respectively) 22:42:44 of course you could easily force codata infinite by not having any base constructors... 22:42:59 data Stream a = Stream a (Stream a) 22:43:09 oerjan: You just blew my mind (or would have, if I had any left.) 22:44:49 omg 22:44:49 has anyone seen the ad for 'legend of aang'? 22:44:49 is it only me or is the part about them having to join their forces 22:44:49 just like the intro to captain planet??? 22:44:49 GO PLANET!! 22:47:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 22:49:15 Legend of Aang? Um, the series is finished 22:49:54 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 22:50:06 >_> 22:50:15 >=> 22:50:53 * Sgeo__ glares suspiciously at Flonk_ glaring suspiciously 22:50:55 >≡> 22:51:38 >≣> 22:51:45 :D 22:51:46 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:51:49 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 22:52:42 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:52:50 Why is charmap broken now? 22:53:09 Hmm, apparently, there's a game Legend of Aang 23:01:17 I have a font on my computer named "Aegyptus" and I am unsure how to work it 23:17:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:35:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 23:36:01 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:39:13 -!- augur has joined. 23:44:28 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 23:44:54 Gregor-L: I know W and P, but L? 23:45:40 It's an impostor! 23:51:16 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:51:29 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:55:36 Maybe his ferry sunk, and L stands for Lifeboat. 23:59:46 Come, let's be reasonabl. 23:59:55 s/bl/ble/ 2010-08-06: 00:00:09 It's far more likely that his evil twin murdered him. 00:00:44 Yes! And his evil twin, being evil, is Left-handed! 00:00:49 It all makes sense now! 00:01:06 Of course1 00:02:01 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:04:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:04:41 -!- augur has joined. 00:05:19 I don't know Gregor-W 00:06:07 Sgeo__, you're kidding, right? 00:06:27 What does -W mean? Windows? 00:06:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:06:36 W is for Work 00:06:38 Ah 00:06:44 P is for Phone 00:06:47 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 00:06:48 * Sgeo__ knew that 00:06:55 (The Phone, not the Work) 00:07:04 L is for Evil Twin Sunk the Ferry I Was On 00:07:08 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 00:07:18 -!- Zuu has joined. 00:07:18 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 00:07:18 -!- Zuu has joined. 00:19:52 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:20:47 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:21:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 00:25:11 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:42:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:45:00 comex, what is Rock? 00:46:53 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:52:13 -!- SimonRC has joined. 01:11:30 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 01:40:16 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 01:43:22 -L and [no suffix] are currently the same system, since my laptop is my primary machine right now. 01:43:39 I have ... a lot of ways to connect to IRC 01:46:51 * Sgeo__ is now in the Futurama-watching room 01:48:50 * Sgeo__ ponders allowing Pharo to accept Ruby syntax 02:00:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:15:07 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:28:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:31:26 Last week's Futurama is now on, in case anyone missed it. If you missed it, WATCH IT! 02:34:05 THIS CONCEPT OF LAST WEEK CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US 02:35:24 {{ I'd respond with "SURELY YOU MEAN", but I didn't misspell "Last week", afaik }} 02:37:43 is it a different futurama each week? 02:39:03 Yes; Futurama is airing again. 02:44:51 FOR US AMERICANS ANYWAY 02:45:11 You Euros'll get it in a year or three I'm sure. 02:46:19 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:49:17 Gregor-P: Internet! Bits! Speed of electricity! 02:54:51 ILLEGALS 02:55:06 Interweb anchor babies! 03:15:37 -!- iamcal has joined. 03:16:47 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:20:35 -!- augur has joined. 03:24:32 Sgeo__: ok, I'm watching it now 03:24:42 It's almost over 03:25:03 on the contrary, it's only just begun 03:41:46 hmm, torchwood is a pretty shoddy series 03:55:47 -!- AnMaster has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:18:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:27:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:27:52 -!- augur has joined. 05:05:52 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:32:50 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 05:34:19 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor. 06:30:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:46:27 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:43:44 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:32:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:36:20 * Sgeo__ is now in the Futurama-watching room <-- does it have a small shrine? 08:36:33 or a big one, even 09:06:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:26:23 -!- tombom has joined. 09:31:51 -!- Flonk has joined. 09:32:01 good morning. 09:37:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:52:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:11:13 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 10:11:34 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 10:11:54 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 10:44:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:48:24 -!- AnMaster has joined. 11:24:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:24:48 -!- augur has joined. 11:25:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:42:44 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:43:24 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 11:50:33 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:50:38 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:52:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:07:16 Sgeo! 13:07:29 Phantom_Hoover! 13:08:15 Still doing whatever it was you were doing? 13:09:38 You mean the project? 13:09:48 Yes. The Project. 13:10:04 It's live, but development is on hold while I wait for a testing environment 13:11:33 What does it *do*? 13:11:42 It's a game 13:12:02 A futuristic remake of an older game [now defunct] that was in the same environment 13:15:51 What older game? 13:18:04 you're only allowed to use alise's haskell on pro-GNOME operating systems. 13:18:14 http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Mutation 13:18:15 why? 13:18:20 BECAUSE OF THE GNOME-ADS 13:18:22 8D 13:18:23 augur, alise's Haskell? 13:18:27 yes. 13:18:32 alise's implementaiton. 13:18:37 Ah. In what? 13:18:48 you sure dont get the joke 13:20:48 * Sgeo gets the joke, but I assume "alise's" is just unnecessary 13:21:00 well 13:21:05 definitely not 13:21:11 its definite necessary 13:21:22 otherwise it'd be a pro-sex operating system 13:21:26 because of all the moan ads 13:21:35 I assume it's a play on "Monads", but I don't get where alise comes from. 13:21:50 Phantom_Hoover: alise has this thing 13:21:56 jokes about "monad" and "nomad" 13:37:02 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:50:54 -!- Gregor has joined. 13:52:06 -!- derdon has joined. 14:02:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:08:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:13:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:18:24 "Another nasty problem arises if you use a mutable object, i.e., an object 14:18:24 that can change its hash value over time, as an element of a Set or as a key to 14:18:24 a Dictionary. Dont do this unless you love debugging!" 14:18:34 Someone should make an esolang where that's no big deal 14:23:59 -!- augur has joined. 15:01:28 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:09:44 -!- relet has joined. 15:28:56 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:36:51 -!- tombom_ has joined. 15:38:31 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:46:47 -!- alise has joined. 16:46:53 cellophane illegal 16:47:01 Quod? 16:47:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:48:26 pikhq: et establishum 16:48:43 -!- Behold has joined. 16:49:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:49:52 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:50:44 alise: Malkompren' 16:51:01 And now, we're going to play a track from Cellophane Illegal's new album, "Et Establishum". It's called "Malkompren'"... enjoy. 16:51:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:51:17 :D 16:51:31 cpressey: actually, those /are/ awesome band and album names ... 16:51:36 They are. 16:51:52 I know! 16:53:06 "This track is 7:06 long, which is the same as SIX MINUTES AND SIXTY-SIX SECONDS. And if you play it backwards, it sounds like 'Malkompren'', a song by Cellophane Illegal, a band known to be Satanists -- one of their tracks is 6 minutes and 66 seconds long. Coincidence? You decide." 16:54:52 pikhq: Apparently, fast images in Super Hi-Vision may cause motion sickness. 16:55:04 This source is Gizmodo via NHK, so credibility is, uh, zero. 16:55:27 I'd trust NHK, but not Gizmodo... 16:55:44 However, I suggest that this is bullshit. 16:55:44 pikhq: I said NHK because of the language barrier. 16:55:53 Erm. 16:55:55 NHK via Gizmodo. 16:56:05 i.e., NHK said it, Gizmodo fucked with it until it sounded hyperbolic. 16:57:11 It's just 4320p; *effectively* the same resolution as analog IMAX. 16:57:37 (of course, comparing digital and analog video when both are high-quality is fairly subjective) 16:57:46 Incidentally, Toy Story 3 is good. 16:58:01 It's a Pixar film. 16:58:20 Yes. Yes it is. 16:58:34 It was Touched by the Holy Hand of His Holiness Steve. 17:00:25 May I present Exhibit A? 17:00:42 Sure. 17:00:46 Barbie: Authority should derive from the consent of the governed, not from threat of force! 17:01:02 LMAO 17:01:12 (No, Barbie is nothing like this in it for anything other than this one line.) 17:03:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:04:28 hi ais523 17:05:47 hi alise 17:08:08 [Five-Minute "Threshold"] 17:08:09 Janeway: This event will stand with some of the most memorable in history. 17:08:09 Paris: Yeah. Wilbur Wright...Neil Armstrong...Zephram Cochrane ... 17:08:09 Janeway: I was thinking "Spock's Brain"..."Shades of Gray"..."Let He Who is Without Sin..."... 17:15:36 alise: :D 17:16:58 So the one flaw of my lovely laptop is that it is not powerful enough to decode 1080p. I think 720p slows it down a bit too. 17:18:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:18:35 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 17:20:51 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:21:00 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 17:21:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:22:46 * alise downloads "All Good Things..." from that uber-high-quality rip of TNG to review the quality. THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE IMPORTANT! 17:23:16 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 17:23:28 Hello Gregor-Urine. 17:23:41 * alise mature 17:23:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:24:38 ... wow 17:25:02 alise: If it is absolutely super-awesome, then glee. 17:25:08 BECAUSE OF THE GNOME-ADS 17:25:19 * oerjan whacks augur with the saucepan ===\__/ 17:26:34 pikhq: It has a downside, though. Wesley, too, will be in high-definition. 17:27:04 alise: As will beardless Riker. 17:27:06 *shudder* 17:27:29 pikhq: Yes, but you can avoid him more than you can avoid Wesley. 17:27:51 This is ridiculous, how can two episodes be 1.6 GiB? 17:27:57 Why am I not downloading at a greater speed? >_> 17:28:18 Let's see how well mplayer can play partial files. 17:28:22 Best thing about moving back to CO: REAL. GOD. DAMNED. INTERNET. 17:28:29 Speed? 17:28:29 And mplayer can play partial files very well. 17:28:40 This is America, so let me guess: 3 Kb/s, on a good day? 17:28:57 I think it's sitting at about 40 megabits/sec. 17:29:06 ...Oh, the uploader merged "All Good Things..."'s two parts. 17:29:15 So I was downloading Preemptive Strike, too. 17:29:21 in CO, god is real, but the internet is damned 17:29:27 good to know. 17:29:31 * pikhq tests 17:29:37 pikhq: Whfuck you. 17:29:44 (1) Fuck you all I have is 8 Mb 17:29:49 (2) I'm moving in see you soon brb plane 17:30:29 Is there a ... takeWhileFold? 17:30:35 e.g., "take while sum < 3" 17:30:57 takeWhileFold (+) (< 3) lst 17:32:05 um what's tested the sum or the list values 17:32:16 oh hm 17:32:30 oh and what's returned, for that matter 17:33:20 oh with 0 in there too 17:33:41 obviously there is no single such predefined functino 17:33:46 basically we see if "fold[rl] (+) 0 [] < 3" fits, else sub "take 1 lst" for [] 17:33:54 else sub "take 2 lst" 17:33:55 etc 17:33:55 mm 17:34:32 alise: can you give an actual _example_, your explanation is not clear 17:35:07 well 17:35:15 takeWhile tries [], take 1 lst, take 2 lst, take 3 lst, ..., lst 17:35:24 * oerjan swats alise -----### 17:35:26 until "condition (take N lst)" satisfies 17:35:30 _no_ explanation. 17:35:34 then returns that list 17:35:38 i want an example with actual _output_ 17:35:43 oerjan: okay 17:36:14 takeWhileFoldl (+) 0 (< 10) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10] 17:36:18 yields [1,2,3,4] 17:36:22 ok 17:36:24 because foldl (+) 0 [1,2,3,4] == 10 17:37:04 um don't you mean [1,2,3] 17:37:22 10 is not < 10, after all 17:37:31 er, right 17:38:31 erm, what's the thing for "all but last element" again? 17:38:43 init 17:39:03 hmm, that doesn't actually help here 17:39:15 this is quite a subtle function, it involves sending information back across recursions 17:39:28 if you want to make that function actually _lazy_, then it's probably best to write it directly... 17:40:08 mm 17:40:51 mmmmmemoize 17:41:00 hmm, what do I need to get RandomGen? 17:41:05 didn't it use to be in prelude? 17:41:16 System.Random 17:41:24 thanks 17:44:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:45:39 takeWhileFoldl op acc p (x:xs) | p acc = x : takeWhileFoldl op (acc `op` x) p xs; takeWhileFoldl _ _ _ _ = [] 17:45:44 alise: btw, did you know that seq, much like the CAKE, is a LIE???!? 17:45:55 cpressey: In that it doesn't do deep sequencing? 17:45:58 oh wait no 17:46:10 oerjan: I obtained this: 17:46:12 takeWhileFoldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> (a -> Bool) -> [b] -> [b] 17:46:12 takeWhileFoldl f _ _ [] = [] 17:46:13 takeWhileFoldl f z c (x:xs) 17:46:13 | c (f z x) = x : takeWhileFoldl f (f z x) c xs 17:46:13 | otherwise = [] 17:46:50 yeah i forgot to use acc `op` x in the test 17:47:26 the first and last lines can still be combined like i did 17:48:43 grr, how do you show a Rational as a decimal again? 17:48:46 alise: seq is a lie in two ways: (1) in the absence of either of its arguments being "undefined", it's semantically a NOP. (2) even in practice, a Haskell implementation could evaluate its arguments in a different order, e.g. if it thought it that reduction ordering was more efficient 17:49:10 oerjan filled me in on this LIE yesterday :) 17:49:18 also giving f z x a name may help 17:49:22 (1) of course 17:49:25 (2) of course 17:51:16 alise: fromRational to get a Double? >:) 17:51:56 indeed ... 17:52:09 *Main> fmap fromRational (approxE 10000) 17:52:10 1.723 17:52:11 that's not e. 17:54:25 in fact, it seems to be approximating e-1. 17:54:26 Or, not. 17:54:39 !haskell exp (-1) 17:54:41 0.36787944117144233 17:55:00 Also, I think I have to disagree with, or at least modify, the characterization of monads yesterday. They do *in practice* force an evaluation order, even if they do it *by* imposing an order on data flow. Maybe it's not true for some weird or trivial monads out there -- but those would be the exceptions. 17:55:19 cpressey: no, actually 17:55:20 a lot of useful monads are lazy 17:55:21 cpressey, you know lists are monads, right? 17:55:22 list, for example 17:55:25 lazy state 17:55:31 Phantom_Hoover: no, lists aren't monads 17:55:32 [] is a monad 17:55:58 OK, then I still don't understand them. No surprise. 17:56:01 Isn't >>= defined for lists? 17:56:40 cpressey: monads force an order of _effects_. even in IO, evaluation of pure values is not always forced. 17:57:11 Phantom_Hoover: >>= is defined for [] a. 17:57:15 !haskell do x <- return undefined; print "No evaluation of x here" 17:57:15 But if it *is* forced, it's going to happen in the order that the monad establishes. Right? 17:57:22 cpressey: maybe you'd have more luck reading the theoretical definition 17:57:26 "No evaluation of x here" 17:57:28 alise: NO THANK YOU 17:57:33 Tried that 17:57:53 cpressey, the theoretical definition says nothing about evaluation order. 17:58:56 Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't say anything about evaluation 17:59:02 cpressey: Pfft. Philistine! 17:59:03 # 17:59:09 s/#/just delete the damn line/ 17:59:09 cpressey: Only specific monads say anything at all about evaluation. 17:59:11 alise, hence it says nothing about evaluation order. 17:59:53 It says nothing about turnips either. 18:00:02 alise, exactly 18:00:02 !haskell do x <- return undefined; putStr "No evaluation of x here; "; putStr (show x); putStr " we never get to here though" 18:00:10 No evaluation of x here; *** Exception: Prelude.undefined 18:00:17 But cpressey is not talking about turnip monads. 18:00:30 !haskell [] >>= undefined 18:00:39 [] 18:00:49 I find that very odd... 18:01:19 !haskell concatMap undefined [] 18:01:20 [] 18:01:24 Ah, makes sense now. 18:01:32 Well, [] >>= _ = [] 18:01:37 = _ = 18:01:41 Phantom_Hoover: the undefined function never gets any arguments passed, so never needs to be evaluated 18:01:46 It is not happy about appearing there. 18:01:56 (rather than, y'know, [] >>= x = x `seq` [] -- or some such) 18:02:20 oerjan, got that, but I didn't know that undefined :: (b -> m a) worked. 18:02:27 Can ALSA function if PulseAudio is running? 18:02:31 :t undefined 18:02:36 Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah; undefined :: a 18:02:37 !haskell :t undefined 18:02:37 i.e., if I remove the bypass it has to PulseAudio, what will happen if I play audio to ALSA? 18:02:38 undefined :: a 18:02:49 pikhq, didn't realise that applied to functions as well. Do now. 18:02:57 Functions possess types. 18:03:00 What I don't understand is the use case for writing a monad which does not establish an order. What does a "lazy state" monad do, except save you from an explicit additional argument to your function? In that, using a monad is a lot like writing pointfree code (a practice with which I do not often agree.) 18:03:04 Hence, a includes functions. 18:03:38 cpressey: It saves you from an explicit additional argument to your set of functions. 18:03:48 That is the entire point of the State monad. 18:04:00 Riker: Hey baby, what's your sign? 18:04:03 Troi: You've known me for twelve years. Will, I know you care about me, but... well.... 18:04:03 Riker: Well what? 18:04:03 Troi: It's your beard. It just isn't sufficient anymore. 18:04:03 Riker: WHAT? 18:04:03 Worf: In case you can't tell, Commander, I'm grinning. But it's hard to see that through my thick, thick beard. 18:04:12 cpressey: Some code utilising lazy State would be hideously ugly without it. 18:05:43 alise: Not really a compelling argument. How much of that is the 'do' sugar? 18:06:10 cpressey: Not much at all. 18:06:26 When you're just calling other functions that use that state and don't mutate it yourself, it helps a lot because you can completely elide it. 18:06:30 cpressey: The do sugar is really, really thin. 18:06:42 When you're mutating state inamongst other calls, it isolates this change, rather than making you e.g. pass state' instead of state around everywhere. 18:08:07 About the only thing that's even vaguely "thick" is that pattern matches get a "_ -> fail" case added... 18:08:07 Can ALSA function if PulseAudio is running? 18:08:08 i.e., if I remove the bypass it has to PulseAudio, what will happen if I play audio to ALSA? 18:08:10 alise: When not using monads, when you calling some other function that doesn't use that state, you just don't include that explicit argument. 18:08:11 Anyone know? 18:08:21 pikhq: Whoa, they do? I didn't realise. 18:08:25 alise: Yeah. 18:08:35 cpressey: That DO use state, I said. 18:08:54 pikhq: Now answer my ALSA question :P 18:08:55 Sorry, misread. 18:09:03 alise: If you have mixing enabled in ALSA, *yes*. 18:09:12 (either hardware mixing or dmix) 18:09:21 pikhq: Is it enabled by default if I have PulseAudio in a typical crapbuntu setup? 18:09:33 alise: Ubuntu should have dmix by default, yes. 18:09:41 Even if it's a PulseAudio stack? 18:09:45 Yes. 18:09:56 Actually, I think ALSA now just makes dmix on by default... 18:10:08 Okay, two new questions: 18:10:17 (1) How do I disable ALSA's redirection? I've forgotten what file it's in. 18:10:29 (2) What's the best/quickest/etc. ao/vo for mplayer? 18:10:37 -ao sdl seems pretty good, but what about -vo? 18:10:52 Using built-in Intel sound and video cards. 18:10:55 Dunno, -ao alsa or -ao oss or -ao sdl, and -vo gl or -vo xv 18:11:23 SDL must necessarily be worse than ALSA/OSS, yeah, because it outputs there? 18:11:48 I wonder with vo is default. 18:11:50 *which vo 18:12:06 Probably something like -vo x11 18:12:12 Or -vo xv or -vo gl 18:12:27 * pikhq goeth to shower 18:13:03 ISTR -vo gl being slow. 18:13:32 "-vo xv" is good if it works. 18:13:38 Hardware colorspace conversions and so on. 18:13:43 (And scaling.) 18:14:01 But for just straight playback? And could it possibly "work" without actually... working? 18:14:06 You know, emulating it somehow. 18:14:08 Uh, I'm tired. 18:14:41 I... guess it could, but I think usually if Xv is supported, it's supported mostly on hardware. 18:14:55 Well, it works; *should* it work, on this built-in Intel card? 18:15:06 Sure, sure. At least most likely. 18:15:38 On NVIDIA cards, there's the (old) xvmc and (new) vdpau stuff to move even the video stream decoding, and IDCT, and other such stuff, on hardware; but I have no idea how (and if) that's supported on Intel graphics and Linux. 18:16:03 Probably not. 18:16:21 These GPUs are... not the most powerful. 18:17:42 Okay; how do I make ALSA reload its config? 18:18:04 Also, I guess "xvinfo" will tell you mostly what the hardware supports, if you're curious. 18:18:23 And I was under the impression that all libalsa-using processes read the .asoundrc fluff on startup, and that's about it. 18:19:03 /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf. 18:19:06 More a server configuration file. 18:22:10 Can someone please tell me exactly ONE reason not to remove PulseAudio and just use ALSA+dmix? 18:22:48 Some idiot feels that adding a layer of abstraction for no benefit is a good idea. 18:23:04 Indeed. 18:23:26 I'm just shocked that so many people clamour to bundle this technology which does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR YOU, AT ALL into their distributions. 18:23:30 What does PA actually /do/? 18:23:33 Even X11 does more. 18:23:47 Phantom_Hoover: Takes audio in. Mixes it together. Sends it off to ALSA or some other device, which can already mix audio. 18:24:06 Okay, it can also do EQ and stuff on the audio. Which, you know, is totally unnecessary as everything that you'd want to EQ can already do EQ. 18:24:10 Apart from that? 18:24:16 Takes up RAM and disk. 18:24:23 Umm... that's it. 18:25:12 In fact, the role of PulseAudio in a typical Ubuntu user's life is akin to that of Ubuntu One's: annoying and pointless. 18:25:47 As such, I will hereby remove both. 18:26:12 ubuntu is heavy 18:26:22 Good word. 18:27:33 It can also do things like networked audio, but your regular user won't have much use for that. 18:27:55 pikhq: Projects for an Insane Man And/Or Woman Who Inexplicably Wishes to Make Linux Slightly Better: (1) Develop an X11-compatible, accelerated graphics server that doesn't suck. (2) Develop an independent libX11 implementation exclusively for (1) that sucks... well, less. (Optionally libxcb, too, although nothing uses that.) (3) Develop a sound system that doesn't suck. Uh, you could just use OSSv4. 18:27:57 It has a convenient interface for per-process volume controlling. 18:28:15 Deewiant: That's nice. If only it didn't make everything else suck. 18:28:33 Such as latency (really really really sucks for some hardware), not-having-a-bloated-piece-of-shit-running-ness, ... 18:28:35 alise, is there anything you don't think sucks? 18:28:45 It is getting *really* tiresome. 18:28:46 It mixes my audio without causing sound quality problems like ALSA did by default (and I couldn't find a way to fix). 18:28:47 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. It's just not very interesting to talk about. 18:29:03 alise, neither are things you think sucks. 18:29:07 s/sucks/suck/ 18:29:09 Phantom_Hoover: You don't say things when I talk about things I like. Presumably because they don't annoy you, so you don't think to say anything. 18:29:31 I believe I speak of things that suck probably less than you think. 18:30:12 (Nor do you complain to other people who complain things suck, e.g. pikhq and cpressey, although their complaints usually happen after I make one.) 18:30:35 Anyway, I find /your/ complaints, about my complaints, annoying too. 18:31:50 Well, I find your complaints about my complaints about your complaints annoying. 18:32:05 Delightful. 18:32:54 No, better. I have complaints about your complaints about my complaints about your complaints. 18:33:22 Now why do I lack asoundconf(1) ... 18:34:22 By default, asoundconf's configuration file is ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf 18:34:23 and must be included in ~/.asoundrc. Open this file to make sure it is! 18:34:23 What. 18:36:15 # Specify default video driver (see -vo help for a list). 18:36:16 # vo=xv,x11 18:36:18 Alright then. 18:37:31 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:38:40 Deewiant: There was something I was going to say to you. I've been /wii'ing you a couple of times to see if you happened to be around. 18:39:16 Is wiiing an effective way of seeing whether Deewiant is around? 18:39:18 I'm usually around, I just haven't said much on freenode recently 18:39:22 Does he appear in the wii? :| 18:40:51 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:41:12 I wrote a program it does not work with Windows named pipes, but it works with UNIX named pipes if it is compiled with Cygwin. 18:41:37 zzo38, very good. 18:42:09 And I don't know how to develop an X11-compatible, accelerated graphics server that doesn't suck. 18:42:30 zzo38, this is alise-suck, which is a nebulous concept. 18:43:23 I think Phantom_Hoover has some sort of automatic system whereby he automatically likes everything I dislike and automatically ignores anybody concurring with me. 18:43:56 alise, I'm not saying it doesn't suck, only that I'm not entirely sure how you define suckiness. 18:44:08 Alright then. 18:44:16 zzo38: It shouldn't suck by not sucking. 18:44:40 alise: That doesn't help, because I still don't know how to develop accelerated graphics server, anyways. 18:44:55 Gah, anyone know how to get the old ALSA mixer in the Ubuntu panel? 18:45:03 The new-fangled one only does Pulse. 18:45:07 Deewiant: Well, you had "Work" and then "Going home" (or some-such) as away messages. 18:45:19 Deewiant: On the other hand, I have no longer any clue what it was I was going to say. 18:45:44 It helps to just say it and wait, perhaps hours, for an answer 18:47:24 ALSA Gnome panel applet in Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic 18:47:25 yay 18:47:30 i386 18:47:31 nay 18:48:22 Whoa. I used the Pulse volume control and my GTK reverted to Raleigh. 18:48:24 How does that work? 18:48:32 Oh, because I removed the applet. Uh. 18:48:34 How does that work? 18:48:47 Aaand now it's back apart from X-Chat. 18:50:43 Does "aptitude download" apply patches? 18:50:53 Er, never mind. 18:53:49 fizzie: Is there some straightforward way to ask C for an integer type that's the same size as a machine pointer for the architecture? (would be nice for what i'm doing, but i can also live without it) 18:54:28 intptr_t 18:54:30 C99 18:54:47 it's at least as big as a pointer 18:54:56 #include 18:55:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 18:55:04 uintptr_t is unsigned 18:55:25 hey what's the kosher way to build a debian package given its debian-patched source directory? 18:56:39 cpressey: Use sizeof() to check these things? 18:57:06 Like, sizeof(void*)==sizeof(int)?1:-5 18:57:09 zzo38: that was my backup plan. 18:57:30 There's that intptr_t, yes, though I think it's optionallish. Of course everyone with sensible pointers (and a big enough integer type) does provide it, since it's so easy. 18:57:42 if C89, might have to resort to that. 18:57:47 struct _check_sizes { int z[sizeof(void*)==sizeof(int)?1:-5]; }; 18:58:20 Compile-time asserts like that are always so awesome. 18:58:49 will that actually be evaluated at compile time? 18:59:02 cpressey: Yes it will be evaluated at compile tile 18:59:06 s/tile/time/ 19:00:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:00:10 cpressey: I'd just use intptr_t. 19:00:13 Everything supports it. More or less. 19:00:25 0% [1 libart-2.0-dev 9506/75.8kB 12%] 19:00:36 It was going at some three thousand bytes per second. 19:00:37 Peculiar. 19:01:02 tile-based compilation 19:02:51 pikhq: Okay, my video is lagging. Or my audio. Severely. alsa/xv. mplayer. What. Why. 19:03:00 I'll probably go with defaulting to intptr_t, but making it configurable in the code gen. 19:03:05 Not an uber-high-quality file, either. 19:03:32 And asserting that it can hold an int and a ptr in the generated source 19:04:05 cpressey: What are you making now? 19:04:05 Movie-Aspect is 1.30:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect. --mplayer 19:04:07 Hmm. 19:04:57 zzo38: O - this is for Eightebed. A "safe" language without GC. because Gregor said it couldn't be done :) 19:05:15 (I'm oversimplifying of course) 19:05:19 * Gregor-P yawns. 19:05:33 * Gregor-P heckles. 19:05:40 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:06:07 The following packages are BROKEN: 19:06:10 ubuntu-desktop 19:06:10 The following NEW packages will be installed: 19:06:10 libsdl1.2debian-alsa 19:06:10 The following packages will be REMOVED: 19:06:10 libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio{a} 19:06:11 BROKEN! 19:06:13 I am violating the Holy Creed. 19:06:20 Die, Pulseau 19:06:26 *Die, PulseAudio! Die! 19:06:56 hmm, it's a strong dependency, not a recommendation? 19:06:59 99.99%, yet it refuses to believe the torrent is completed. 19:07:02 45 seconds at ... heh, this is fun. 19:07:04 ais523: yes 19:07:07 ais523: all of ubuntu-desktop is 19:07:13 ubuntu-desktop does nothing, of course 19:07:16 used to be, but I thought they changed it 19:07:23 except install more useless crap ubuntu adds each upgrade 19:08:28 Write a different distribution if you don't like it...... (I don't particularly like Ubuntu either) 19:12:41 zzo38: Yeah, uh, not that easy. 19:12:46 It's easier to complain. 19:12:52 pikhq: Could that rescaling be slowing down mplayer? 19:13:21 Yes it is easier to complain probably, but one day if I get new computer, I like to write Linux distribution, too (I must have told you that before?). 19:14:40 Yeah, a few times. 19:17:42 -!- calamari has joined. 19:17:52 hi 19:17:57 What this world needs is more distributions with near-0 userbases. 19:18:04 Also HI 19:18:59 Nullix, the POSIX compatible OS with _no_ users. also, no copies. 19:21:59 http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061122013747/memoryalpha/en/images/0/0c/KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg 19:22:40 I write Linux distribution because I want to do so, in order to make it improvment in the way that is in my opinion. And then maybe some other people can use or maybe not 19:24:29 debian/rules:18: /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/patchsys-quilt.mk: No such file or directory 19:24:29 /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/gnome-get-source.mk:31: warning: overriding commands for target `get-orig-source' 19:24:30 /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/gnome-get-source.mk:31: warning: ignoring old commands for target `get-orig-source' 19:24:30 make: *** No rule to make target `/usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/patchsys-quilt.mk'. Stop. 19:24:30 dpkg-buildpackage: error: fakeroot debian/rules clean gave error exit status 2 19:24:32 What ... 19:24:35 Gregor, can't remember whether I asked.. did you root your phone? 19:24:46 Yeah 19:24:58 Gregor, got debian working without a chroot, it was very easy, dunno what my problem was before 19:25:13 err dpkg/apt 19:25:21 Schweet 19:25:43 Put that shtuff on the Market! 8-D 19:25:46 Window manager shall include taskbar with clock, tiling and floating windows, background can be solid color or background picture (the background picture must be non-animated and the same size as the screen, because stretch is not available), and not much else other than many keyboard functions and mouse chording to manipulate windows and signals. (The taskbar needs only the list of windows open and the time, nothing else) 19:25:52 so that should make it easier for me to finish the egobf package, since I don't have to deal with bionic now 19:26:07 Gregor, not going to pay $25 for that, sorry! 19:26:23 which phone do you have? 19:26:24 And if you have multiple screens, you can change the taskbar color and background color on each one 19:26:51 calamari: How about I pay, host the archive, and get all the credit? :P 19:26:59 calamari: How about I pay, host the archive, and get all the credit? :P 19:27:02 Errr 19:27:03 go for it 19:27:10 calamari: Samsung Moment 19:27:20 Erm 19:27:28 cool that's what a friend of mine just got too 19:27:29 Why can't calamari just publish an .ipkg? Or whatever they are. 19:27:30 .ipk. 19:27:34 apk 19:27:46 Certainly he can. 19:27:52 I could 19:28:22 Putting it on the Market is just a convenience. 19:28:37 lol.. a package that is a glorified shell script 19:29:02 Gregor, what's in your $PATH? 19:29:35 calamari: A distinct inability to paste into IRC ;) 19:29:37 I have been running cyanogenmod so long I have lost touch with the real world 19:29:49 Gregor, AndChat ftw 19:30:08 AndChat ftf 19:30:28 okay i gotta try this out 19:30:37 could swear I pasted in it before 19:31:24 -!- calamari- has joined. 19:32:15 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:33:51 bash-4.1# echo $PATH 19:34:10 hrmm very strange 19:34:17 oh.. right.. slashes in irc are bad 19:34:46 ...... /usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/system/sbin:/system/bin:/system/xbin:/system/xbin 19:35:08 calamari, /say or just /. 19:35:28 what? 19:35:39 /see? 19:35:45 "//foo" sends "/foo". 19:35:50 "/say /foo" sends "/foo". 19:35:51 alise, thanks 19:35:51 /foo 19:36:19 Gregor-P: I'm selectively installing old versions of some Debian (well, Ubuntu) packages, then installing a patched version of an old package that depends on them. 19:36:22 This includes important GNOME libraries. 19:36:26 Am I insane, or doubly insane? 19:36:34 apparently not in andchat 19:36:36 Also, the final outcome of this insanity is ... a sound mixer. 19:36:49 calamari, /say? 19:37:16 say isn't a valid command for me 19:37:26 "//" might still work, though. Unless you tried that too. 19:37:37 that's okay.. the leading dot worked 19:37:43 leading spaces didn't 19:37:51 alise: Neither, I've done that before, usually works. 19:38:06 Gregor, anyhow.. do you have /datalocal/bin in your PATH? 19:38:13 Gregor-P: I'm pretty sure this is /downgrading some parts of GNOME to a lower release of GNOME/, though. 19:38:13 /data/local/bin 19:38:15 Actual *libraries*. 19:38:17 So I'm insane. 19:39:01 calamari: No. 19:39:03 Wow, pidgin sounds work now. 19:39:14 This is not a good thing. :P 19:39:19 must be cyanogenmod then 19:40:12 that's okay.. is /data mounted rw? 19:41:10 / /foo works on some clients too. 19:41:31 (But, again, probably not in that one.) 19:42:36 Maybe is a monad, isn't it? 19:43:21 Yep... 19:45:02 Very simple monad, too. 19:45:13 Only one simpler is Identity. 19:45:18 (Maybe without Nothing) 19:45:40 What is that actually /for/? 19:45:48 Maybe? 19:46:07 Simple failure handling. 19:46:16 No, Identity. 19:46:24 Of course I know what Maybe is for. 19:46:33 *Mostly* demonstrating a simple monad. 19:47:07 It could also hypothetically be the bottom part of a transformer stack if for some reason you wanted a monad as the bottom that doesn't have a non-transformer version. 19:47:33 We must tell cpressey... 19:47:57 I imagine monad transformers break his brain. 19:48:10 / 19:48:15 / 19:48:16 I don't know what they are either... 19:48:32 hmm space does work, not sure why it didn't before 19:48:35 calamari: Yes, and you need to highlight me to get my attention :P 19:48:38 It's a type constructor which takes a monad and results in a monad. 19:49:05 pikhq, well, that makes sense. 19:49:09 For instance, ContT is a monad transformer. ContT IO is a monad. 19:49:09 -!- calamari- has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:49:53 And StateT Cont is a time-travel monad. 19:50:12 (note: these are not exactly simple examples, except for demonstrating how one gets a monad out of monad transformers. :P) 19:50:14 In what sense? 19:50:38 Okay ... new volume control has unbelievably ugly icon. 19:51:25 Phantom_Hoover: With StateT Cont, the state in the StateT is *part* of the continuation. So, every time you use a continuation, you end up using the state in that continuation. 19:51:44 In effect, you are jumping forward and backwards in the computation when you use a continuation in StateT Cont. 19:53:37 (well, it's StateT s (Cont y), but that's just because, y'know, monads actually have values "in" them. :P) 20:00:07 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:04:08 Does anyone know the unending horror that is GNOME? 20:06:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:08:08 alise, as in, understand? 20:08:19 No, just ... be able to tell me how to replace a panel's icons. 20:08:33 Find the file it uses and change it? 20:08:42 Yes. The first bit is the bit I require assistance with. 20:09:32 /usr/share/pixmaps or /usr/share/icons might be a place to start. 20:09:41 I know /that/ much. 20:09:50 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-muted-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-muted-blocking-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-low-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-medium-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-high-panel.svg 20:09:51 ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-low-zero-panel.svg 20:09:53 etc 20:09:55 are the ones I need to replace. 20:09:58 I just need to find what I need to replcae the,. 20:10:34 No, wait. 20:10:36 Those are correct. 20:16:48 !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l -- now if this works on first try... 20:16:58 [9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0] 20:17:01 wow 20:17:35 except - those _shouldn't_ have been changing values D: 20:19:36 hm... 20:20:27 !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- lift callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l 20:21:18 argh 20:22:00 Have you seen a chess puzzle game where you have to mate in infinity plus fifteen? 20:22:28 !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- lift $ callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then lift $ cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l 20:22:30 [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0] 20:22:33 hah! 20:23:05 WHAT THE FUCKKK 20:23:44 pikhq: apparently the callCC method for StateT Cont is defined in such a way that it preserves the state too. if i use an explicit lifted callCC from the underlying Cont monad instead, _then_ the state time-travels. 20:24:14 oerjan: StateT stores the state /outside/ the other monad, doesn't it? 20:24:23 just like StateT Parser doesn't backtrack the state 20:24:27 that's why Parsec needs its own state 20:24:38 ais523: you should fix my computer 20:24:49 alise: how is it broken? 20:25:23 ais523: inexplicably, no matter how many times I replace icons, my (installed from older version of gnome) mixer applet doesn't acknowledge these new icons 20:25:32 ais523: um i didn't think Parsec _needed_ its own user state, it was just convenient to include it with the rest it has to track... 20:25:32 and I cannot figure out why; perhaps it is requesting specifically .png, not .svg, but I doubt that 20:25:59 alise: the obvious conclusion is that Ubuntu has caught the recent icon vulnerability from Windows 20:26:11 also, where are you replacing the icons? 20:26:18 ais523: and _no_ state transformer can do anything "outside" the transformed monad 20:26:20 ais523: /usr/share/icons; I've tried Humanity, Humanity-Dark, ubuntu-mono-dark 20:26:21 none work 20:26:26 ais523, what vulnerability? 20:26:36 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 20:26:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:27:00 Phantom_Hoover: there was a hugely exploited vulnerability that was a bug in icon processing 20:27:08 although it was exploited indirectly via .pif and .lnk files 20:27:14 ais523, why would Ubuntu have it? 20:27:16 Microsoft issued an out-of-band patch on Monday 20:27:19 and it wouldn't, I was joking 20:27:51 oerjan: Still the timetravel monad. :) 20:28:11 Why do these things tend to happen to Windows? 20:28:41 *no monad transformer 20:28:50 Windows is badly designed 20:30:49 Well, I've heard that constantly, but why? 20:31:58 instance (MonadCont m) => MonadCont (StateT s m) where callCC f = StateT $ \s -> callCC $ \c -> runStateT (f (\a -> StateT $ \s' -> c (a, s'))) s 20:32:58 Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Maybe because they are bad programmers and not opensource 20:33:33 Windows is horribly designed, and they don't update their BSD libraries that often. 20:33:42 it explicitly includes the StateT state in what's passed to the "underlying" continuation from the lower monad 20:34:13 oerjan: Soley to reduce the confusion caused by time travel, I'm sure. 20:34:18 yeah 20:35:21 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 20:37:09 how do you give the -vo driver options? 20:37:57 -vo driver:options:seperated:by:colons 20:38:33 BTW, -vo drivers,seperated,by,commas,listed,in,order,of,preference 20:39:11 Hey, libcaca plays the video at full speed just fine. 20:39:13 There's a solution. 20:39:20 I'll just get used to watching videos with libcaca. 20:39:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:40:01 Movie-Aspect is 1.30:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect. 20:40:06 I'm *sure* that's what's slowing it down! 20:40:18 How can I disable scaling? 20:40:55 Ah, -noaspect. 20:40:59 Nope, still lagged. 20:41:09 pikhq: Okay, what? 20:41:16 WHY does Linux suck at AV so much? 20:41:42 * alise tries VLC in case mplayer is being stupid. 20:41:47 alise: What's the full mplayer command line? 20:42:15 pikhq: Anything! -ao sdl, -ao alsa, -vo xv, -vo sdl, -vo xv:somethingaboutcolorkeysorsomethingthatchangednothing 20:42:30 ... 20:42:34 Try -vo x11 20:42:45 I am sceptical that that will be quicker, but I will try. 20:42:47 If that works, your video card officially Sucks Ass. 20:42:55 Intel video doesn't suck that much. 20:43:08 It handles Compiz and all that jazz just fine, better than any other card on Linux due to its "open-sourceness". 20:43:26 $ mplayer -ao sdl -vo x11 "7.25 All Good Things….mkv" 20:43:27 Grumble... 20:43:32 ... Wait, you're running Compiz? 20:43:38 pikhq: -vo x11 is even worse. 20:43:42 Compiz hates video. 20:43:44 Yes. Won't the compositing /help/? 20:43:47 Hateshateshates. 20:44:01 If it were implemented well, perhaps. Compiz hateshateshates video. 20:44:11 I switched to Compiz without compositing. 20:44:27 Either my perception of mouths is broken, or it still doesn't help. 20:44:31 I'll enable Metacity compositing? 20:44:35 Is there a way to bypass the WM somehow? 20:44:49 Hmm. Without compositing it shouldn't matter at all. 20:45:00 Except that Metacity will be drawing shit itself? 20:45:16 Under X, how video is finally drawn depends largely on the X window manager in use. With properly installed drivers, and GPU hardware such as supported Intel, ATI, and nVidia chip sets, some window managers, called compositing window managers allow windows to be separately processed and then rendered (or composited). This involves all windows being rendered to separate output buffers in memory first, and later combined to form a complete graphical interfac 20:45:16 e. While in (video) memory, individual windows can be transformed separately, and accelerated video may be added at this stage using a texture filter, before the window is composited and drawn. XVideo can also be used to accelerate video playback during the drawing of windows using an OpenGL Framebuffer Object or pbuffer. 20:45:17 Metacity, an X window manager uses compositing in this way. The compositing can also make use of 3D pipelines accelerations such as GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap. Among other things, this process allows many video outputs to share the same screen without interfering with each other. Other compositing window managers such as Compiz also use compositing. 20:45:54 pikhq: I suggest that THIS SHIT SUCKS and what drivers might work well without X11? 20:46:00 Will fbdev be fast enough? 20:47:26 pikhq: Gah; can I have a test file to test A/V sync? 20:47:36 Like one that starts playing audio as soon as the screen turns from black to white? 20:47:41 Do you know of one? 20:48:40 pikhq: Apparently you need compositing for Xv to work properly? 20:49:37 Ξ Windows would so fix this. 20:52:05 "Other compositing window managers such as Compiz also use compositing" thanks guys 20:52:06 Why the xi? 20:52:08 alise: ... No, don't really need compositing for that. 20:52:16 * Phantom_Hoover rhymes 20:52:25 Well, it's "compositing", but it's absurdly naive 2D compositing. 20:52:30 pikhq: Okay. Now make it work. :| 20:52:33 And a decade and a half old. 20:52:38 Phantom_Hoover: I gotta name it /some/ Greek letter! 20:52:44 fbdev is actually very fast. 20:52:48 pikhq: My CPU is 1.33 GHz but it can _definitely_ decode this video. 20:52:52 pikhq: Yeah, but fbdev is still desynch'ed. 20:52:54 I suspect audio is the problem. 20:52:58 As Linux audio SUCKS. 20:53:12 I could just install OSSv4 but that sucks to do on Ubuntu. 20:53:13 ... Desync'd? That's definitely the audio layer's fault. 20:53:26 Mplayer is ridiculously good at AV sync. 20:53:29 Why are you discussing compositing WMs? 20:53:39 And HOW ARE YOU HAVING TROUBLE WITH THIS 20:53:50 My God, man. I have never had problems with mplayer on Gentoo. 20:54:00 It just works on fucking *Gentoo*! 20:54:13 pikhq: Well, I only /just/ lobotomised Ubuntu by removing PulseAudio. 20:54:22 It came out with a higher IQ, but god knows how ALSA is configured. 20:54:23 my current only problems with audio are that sometimes after logging on it doesn't work 20:54:27 but it does if I log out and back in again 20:54:48 And of course, Gentoo's handling of things like audio involves using the default settings for ALSA. 20:54:56 (which just works) 20:55:10 Apart from being ALSA. 20:55:22 I have never had problems with it. 20:55:29 Well, apart from the API sucking. 20:55:33 Right, how about I just install OSSv4 and meditate. 20:55:43 Worth a shot. 20:55:44 Low latency, high quality, high sanity. 20:55:52 pikhq: The /last/ time I did this I Broke Everything and installed Arch. 20:56:12 * alise notes http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/05/perfect-sound-with-oss-version-4.html 20:57:06 I don't know if OSSv4 supports my card. 20:57:23 Intel High Definition Audio (Azalia) *BETA* 20:57:26 Well, that is reassuring. 20:59:25 ALISE 20:59:30 Are there actually any contexts in which one would use monady things on lists? 20:59:40 i am fairly sure i have today met the mother of my children 21:00:06 Phantom_Hoover: yes 21:00:18 What like? 21:00:37 Phantom_Hoover: stuff 21:00:44 Helpful. 21:01:00 Phantom_Hoover: it's ... uh, it's like prolog without cut and stuff 21:01:26 * Phantom_Hoover has forgotten what cut does 21:01:56 alise: list monads feel more like multithreading than backtracking 21:02:37 ais523: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; guard (a+b > 6) 21:02:53 er, that doesn't quite work 21:02:56 ais523: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; guard (a+b > 6); return (a,b) 21:04:11 ΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞ 21:04:32 What does guard do? 21:04:45 presumably monad-fails if the condition is false 21:05:35 yes 21:07:34 !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (const [False,True]) ['a'..'e'] 21:07:37 ["","e","d","de","c","ce","cd","cde","b","be","bd","bde","bc","bce","bcd","bcde","a","ae","ad","ade","ac","ace","acd","acde","ab","abe","abd","abde","abc","abce","abcd","abcde"] 21:08:18 what does filterM do? 21:08:45 it filters a list, in a monad ;D 21:08:55 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:10:39 !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (\x -> [x <= 5, x >= 3]) [0..7] 21:10:57 hm... 21:11:17 !haskell "Boo!" 21:11:32 [[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2, 21:11:41 oerjan: looks like it worked, just was slow 21:11:56 did EgoBot just DCC you a wall of text? 21:12:13 _maybe_. iirc there's sometimes a bug that makes the output only happen on the _next_ command. 21:12:16 and no. 21:13:46 oh... 21:14:05 * oerjan misjudged the length of that list 21:14:05 pikhq: Greek Audio: You ask for a certain number of Hzes and bits. You send raw audio data over the channel. The end. 21:14:31 !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (\x -> [x <= 3, x >= 3]) [0..4] 21:14:34 [[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,3],[0,1,3,4],[0,1,3],[0,1,3,4],[0,2,3],[0,2,3,4],[0,2,3],[0,2,3,4],[0,3],[0,3,4],[0,3],[0,3,4],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,3],[1,3,4],[1,3],[1,3,4],[2,3],[2,3,4],[2,3],[2,3,4],[3],[3,4],[3],[3,4]] 21:16:45 * oerjan isn't sure he understands that one himself 21:22:35 "There had been a lot of very bad feeling around here about the way Tasha Yar was sent off. So we were determined to give Wesley a send-off that had real value and something that stayed with us. We finally decided that he would go to the Academy, which I think was Gene's idea [and] the most reasonable and easiest idea, which also keeps him alive for future episodes." 21:22:42 You know, everyone would have preferred you killed Wesley horribly. 21:23:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:24:23 yeah 21:24:27 yar was ok 21:27:08 is there any notable sci-fi that has large space ships be portrayed as political countries, rather than by analogy with sea-based vessels? 21:27:20 i've actually not seen it, unless i'm misremembering - which i tend to do when this tired 21:28:28 !haskell import Control.Monad; import Control.Monad.State; isubs l = flip evalStateT (head l) . filterM (\x -> do prev <- get; if prev > x then return False else join $ lift [return False, do put x; return True]) l; main = print $ isubs [1,3,4,2,3,5] 21:28:29 the ships would have to be pretty large mind 21:30:25 oh 21:30:37 !haskell import Control.Monad; import Control.Monad.State; isubs l = flip evalStateT (head l) $ filterM (\x -> do prev <- get; if prev > x then return False else join $ lift [return False, do put x; return True]) l; main = print $ isubs [1,3,4,2,3,5] 21:30:40 [[],[5],[3],[3,5],[2],[2,5],[2,3],[2,3,5],[4],[4,5],[3],[3,5],[3,3],[3,3,5],[3,4],[3,4,5],[1],[1,5],[1,3],[1,3,5],[1,2],[1,2,5],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,5],[1,4],[1,4,5],[1,3],[1,3,5],[1,3,3],[1,3,3,5],[1,3,4],[1,3,4,5]] 21:30:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:36:38 alise: Probably only sci-fi with sleeper ships. 21:37:12 When travel to port is going to take livable amounts of time, analogy with sea-based vessels kinda makes sense. 21:37:57 alise, the Culture, to a degree. 21:38:12 Inasmuch as the Culture has individual political units. 21:38:39 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah; something a little less abstract would be cool. 21:39:02 pikhq: Well, generation ships would probably be like countries. 21:39:24 At least, the thing I have filed for Would Be a Good Sci-Fi Show About a Generation Space Ship has it like that. 21:39:33 If only I could write. 21:39:35 alise: Ah, yes. Sleeper or generation ships are going to inherently be like countries. 21:39:53 Well, sleeper ships are more like *going to be* countries, but still. 21:40:09 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember if the Algebraist had anything similar. 21:40:13 Still, what about long-mission ships that can still travel large distances, but with a large number of crewmembers? I guess without a defined, "short-term" mission they don't exist. 21:40:39 pikhq: I don't see how sleeper ships would be like that. 21:40:44 They barely have any people. 21:40:49 (Conscious, that is.) 21:41:01 alise: The unconscious crews shall found a colony or some such. 21:41:12 Either that or they'll be back in 100 years, making it more naval. 21:41:26 alise, in hard SF generation ships would probably rarely interact. 21:41:35 And? 21:41:41 (well, "like" 100 years. Long time-span, but the point being that it's returning and the country may well exist in the end) 21:41:48 Politics exist even in a vacuum. Uh, or something. 21:41:59 pikhq: The unconscious crews won't do anything until they're off the ship. 21:42:05 Mmm, yeah. True. 21:42:08 At which point nothing they do changes how the ship is politically structured. 21:42:09 Well, why would it be portrayed as a country? 21:42:34 Phantom_Hoover: Because when you have thousands and thousands of personnel on board, you're going to have an awful lot of opinions, and probably quite a bit of crime. 21:42:46 Especially so on e.g. a generation starship, when people aren't specially selected -- not after the first generation, anyway. 21:42:53 *where people aren't 21:43:06 Another thought: why do so many sci-fi settings seem to try and have all the various settled planets under a single legal framework, regardless of speed of transit between them? 21:43:08 That means that anything with generation ships counts, then. 21:43:14 I'm looking at *you*, Enderverse. 21:43:22 pikhq: normally as a result of conflict 21:43:48 in Asimov's Foundation series, for instance, everywhere starts under a single political system and legal framework 21:43:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQp5l4-sfFA 21:43:50 !!! 21:43:53 and it all falls apart as the series goes on 21:43:54 everyone watch 21:44:07 (gah, slow-ass ships being the only means of transit, but a central government? I don't even know how that works *with* the ansible, much less without.) 21:44:23 pikhq, settlement is an extremely complex business, so it would make sense that only one organisation would be able to do it in any significant amount. 21:44:37 doesn't make sense that everyone would stay bound to that org forever 21:44:40 (Assuming superluminal movement.) 21:44:40 unless it was /really/ scary 21:44:48 ais523, I suppose. 21:44:51 Phantom_Hoover: And how do you maintain political bonds when it's subliminal movement? 21:45:08 pikhq, you don't. Does the Enderverse do that? 21:45:11 pikhq: are you assuming liminal communication as well as subliminal movement? 21:45:15 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 21:45:21 * Phantom_Hoover shudders 21:45:45 Phantom_Hoover: Well, superluminal movement does get invented several centuries in. 21:46:07 Phantom_Hoover: Also, it has instantaneous communication. 21:46:09 pikhq: Notably, Orson Scott Card isn't a very good writer. 21:46:24 Tau Zero was fairly good about the whole "governance in a closed environment" thing. 21:46:27 (...also a homophobe) 21:46:35 OTOH there were only around 50 people on the Leonora. 21:46:40 alise: I *like* his writing when it's not got anything to do with his religion. 21:46:55 It gets vomit-inducing when his religion is at all involved. 21:48:07 * Phantom_Hoover has never read any of OSC's stuff 21:48:13 a 21:48:24 alise, did you read the Culture series? 21:48:29 No. But I will. 21:48:34 I still need to figure out the chronology :^) 21:48:38 I had it written down, somewhere! 21:48:59 Well, I've read Inversions and LTW in the meantime. 21:49:01 Phantom_Hoover: He's a decent sci-fi author, but also a literal, honest-to-god fascist. 21:49:19 A Mormon fascist. 21:49:35 alise, LTW is definitely after Excession, and contains spoilers, but I don't think that affects thing. 21:49:44 s/thing/things/ 21:50:16 It's The State of the Art that matters most to me. The main story in it was published /before/ another novel, separately, though I forget which. 21:51:27 alise, TSOTA is before UOW, so read them consecutively. 21:52:13 1989; TSOTA was published 1989. 21:52:33 Player of Games comes after Consider Phlebas? 21:52:38 Yes. 21:53:09 There's a long-running dispute over which you should read first. I read CP first, and it didn't do me any harm. 21:53:20 Yeah, we talked about that. 21:53:35 I think I want absolute chronological order; equivalently, avoiding spoilers. 21:53:49 I can make the commitment to read past Consider Phlebas beforehand, so it can't possibly turn me off the series. 21:54:21 There are about 2 explicit spoilers I've ever encountered, excepting the outcome of the Idiran War, which hardly counts. 21:54:21 Which are the ones in TSOTA that are set in the culture? 21:54:26 A Gift from the Culture, Descendant? 21:54:34 And TSOTA. 21:54:39 Yes. 21:54:47 # "A Gift from the Culture" - originally published in Interzone #20, Summer 1987 with illustrations by SMS. 21:54:47 # "Descendant" - originally published in the anthology Tales from the Forbidden Planet, Roz Kaveney (ed.) 1987, Titan Books, ISBN 1-85286-004-9. 21:54:53 Awesome, 1987, a chronological hint. 21:55:04 So those two should be read before The State of the Art. 21:55:11 AGFTC is impossible to place within the internal chronology, BtW. 21:55:48 And Descendant after Gift, because Descendant was published October, while Gift was "Summer". 21:55:58 I should find Interzone #20's publication date. 21:56:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but publication order is a secondary measure. 21:56:23 Consider Phlebas 21:56:23 The Player of Games 21:56:23 A Gift from the Culture 21:56:23 Descendant 21:56:23 The State of the Art [novella] 21:56:24 Use of Weapons 21:56:25 alise, I'm pretty sure Descendant is chronologically before Gift. 21:56:25 Excession 21:56:27 Inversions 21:56:29 Look to Windward 21:56:31 Matter 21:56:33 Is this about right? 21:56:35 Phantom_Hoover: Oh? 21:56:37 I thought you said it was impossible. 21:56:42 alise, well, probably. 21:56:55 How can you tell? I don't mind minor spoilers; they're only short stories. 21:57:06 They probably aren't around the same time, because then Gift would have mentioned the Idiran War. 21:57:15 Gift could be before, I suppose... 21:57:29 Yeah, Gift can go whereever. 21:58:26 Well, what's your personal hunch? 21:58:31 Gift is before Idiran War? After? 21:58:36 That would be a start. (I am anal about this stuff.) 21:58:58 Probably after, since everything else is. 21:59:19 Much after, then, if you consider its not mentioning the Idiran War a hint? 21:59:31 As an aside -- is Descendant set before The Player of Games, then? 21:59:39 Yes. 21:59:59 Well, assuming it's set during the Idiran War, which seems pretty reasonable. 22:00:20 So I'll be reading a short story before my first "proper" (non-Phlebas) novel. How quaint. 22:00:28 Consider Phlebas 22:00:29 Descendant 22:00:29 The Player of Games 22:00:29 The State of the Art [novella] 22:00:29 Use of Weapons 22:00:29 Excession 22:00:31 Inversions 22:00:33 Look to Windward 22:00:35 Matter 22:00:37 Insert Gift somewhere, anywhere. 22:00:39 (But only in the right place!) 22:01:01 Go by publication date if you really need to make a meaningful decision. 22:01:17 I read the entirety of TSOTA after CP and UOW. 22:01:30 I couldn't find POG for ages. 22:01:59 Does TPOG mention the War much? 22:02:02 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:02:18 Not really. 22:02:22 You seem to imply that Gift unusually for something near the War doesn't, so perhaps I can figure it out by measuring how "fresh" the War is in the books. 22:02:24 Darn. 22:02:29 Oh well. 22:02:35 It mentions the outcome, but that's pretty obvious. 22:02:49 Phantom_Hoover: Now for the ultimate anality: 22:03:00 Which publications are best! 22:03:03 And CP doesn't even deal with the end of the war outside the appendix. 22:04:38 Large preference for hardback. Antipreference for large hardback. 22:04:42 Not that you'll know. At all. 22:06:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 22:06:19 alise, what are you even planning to use to get them? 22:07:15 The ... internet? 22:07:53 Well, I only have paperbacks of the weird abstract cover variety. 22:09:34 pikhq: Actually, things that operate *on* monads are a lot easier for me to comprehend than monads *themselves*. 22:09:45 "It, Robot: 1" is so badly-written. :( 22:09:53 If it wasn't for the rest of the Ed stories, it would be unforgivable. 22:10:03 cpressey, do you understand Maybe? 22:10:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:10:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 22:10:42 cpressey: Hah. 22:11:01 cpressey: Okay, you might gain comprehension using Identity or Maybe. 22:11:23 Identity: (Identity x) >>= f = f x; return x = Identity x 22:11:54 Maybe: Nothing >>= _ = Nothing 22:12:04 (Just x) >>= f = f x 22:12:17 return x = Just x 22:12:20 pikhq: Hey, do you know what TeX value I need to tweak to tell it not to create widows or orphans or whatever this one is (paragraphs with their last line on their own page)? 22:14:06 Underfull \vbox (badness 10000) has occurred while \output is active [3] 22:14:07 Hm. 22:14:31 No, I don't. 22:14:47 Darn. 22:15:01 Okay, do you know of any simple script I can tweak that will just match "..." dammit and replace them with ``...''? 22:15:09 Sure, I could write one myself, but I forget the rules to determine start/end. 22:15:10 cpressey, does that help? 22:16:35 you gotta do the cooking by the book! 22:17:04 non sequitur culinaris 22:17:19 alise: No, but I'd love one. 22:17:57 pikhq: I mean, it's basically word-boundary (start of line or space)" -> ``, non-word-boundary -> ''. 22:18:07 But this is a bitch to do via a regexp. Here, I volunteer you go and write one, and I'll. 22:18:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:19:18 Phantom_Hoover: You're creepin' me out. 22:19:29 Why? 22:19:53 -!- jcp has joined. 22:20:03 wtf alise 22:20:20 hello [^:word:] 22:20:27 hello [^\W] ?? 22:20:36 or even [^\w] ?? 22:21:06 (^| )"=\1``|"='' 22:21:11 go Cyclexa 22:21:56 alise: it's not massively hard via /two/ regexps, incidentally 22:22:11 ais523: Perhaps not, but Perl et al seem to have a fucked up definition of word boundaries that make it always break. 22:22:13 use one to replace " with `` where necessary, the other to replace the remaining " with '' 22:22:20 I'd be glad to see your regexp. 22:22:52 "Since, in most Smalltalk environments, the execution stack is a first-class citizen, coroutines can be implemented without additional library or VM support. 22:22:53 " 22:23:05 s/(?:^| )\K"/``/g; s/"/''/g; 22:23:08 there you go 22:23:10 Thanks Wikipedia, for telling me it can be done, but not giving me the slightest clue how 22:23:42 ais523: does that work with #!perl -p, I wonder? 22:23:59 Yes, it does. I think. 22:24:50 ais523: So "s/(?:^| )\K-\K(?:$| )/--/g;" for a - on its own, or what? 22:25:03 \K twice makes no sense 22:25:15 it means "don't substitute anything before this point in a s/// expression" 22:25:25 ah 22:25:53 s/(^| )-( |$)/$1--$2/g; 22:25:54 then 22:26:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:26:41 brb 22:27:17 Phantom_Hoover: You seem overly concerned about whether I "understand monads" or not. 22:27:29 cpressey, it's part of the Plan. 22:27:44 You're more susceptible to the Device if you understand monad. 22:27:51 s/ad/ads/ 22:32:23 * Phantom_Hoover notes that there's another Culture book coming out in October. 22:34:11 i gotta read more of those 22:34:14 i liked the ones i did read 22:34:21 /o/ 22:34:22 | 22:34:22 |\ 22:34:23 also: the names of the ships :D 22:34:32 myndzi, indeed. 22:34:48 Which ones, then? 22:35:27 i don't remember :) 22:35:32 whichever ones were at the used book store 22:36:31 consider phlebas, i think 22:36:33 and another one 22:36:35 myndzi, any ship names you can remember? 22:36:51 i believe i have inversions but i haven't read it yet 22:37:04 nah, honestly i don't remember all that much about either of them 22:37:11 i have a shitty memory that way 22:37:43 i could list them when i get home if you are particularly interested or something :P 22:38:20 _o_ 22:38:20 | 22:38:20 |\ 22:38:31 \o\ /o/ \o\ 22:38:31 | | 22:38:31 /< /'\ 22:38:34 lol 22:38:36 i forgot about that 22:39:17 \o/o/ 22:39:48 /o/o/o/ 22:39:55 that's odd, it should have detected one of those at least i'd think 22:40:03 maybe flood protection or something 22:40:13 \o/o/ 22:40:16 huh 22:40:17 * oerjan is sure he recalled some bug involving something like that 22:40:27 \o\\ 22:40:27 | 22:40:27 >\ 22:40:35 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 22:40:38 hm maybe 22:40:38 it may be some regex failure on my part 22:40:46 \o\\o\ 22:40:46 | | 22:40:46 /| /< 22:40:49 /o// 22:40:49 | 22:40:49 /\ 22:40:50 i don't think so though 22:40:52 /o/ 22:40:52 | 22:40:52 /| 22:40:57 /o/o 22:40:58 since the regex for that one is pretty simple 22:41:08 hm... 22:41:12 _o_o_o_ 22:41:13 /o/a 22:41:19 _o_o_o_ 22:41:19 oh 22:41:21 i know what it is 22:41:34 It ignores if there's a non /\_ character after the arm. 22:41:36 i modified the regex to help avoid things like urls with _o_ in them 22:41:37 | 22:41:37 /< 22:41:48 oh 22:41:50 so it has a \w check now 22:41:57 then that may have been after the bug 22:42:10 probably, it was a pretty recent change 22:42:13 YOU RUINED THE BUG 22:42:16 lol 22:42:37 there, i took the \w check out 22:42:41 \o/o/ 22:42:41 22:42:41 22:42:48 _o_o_o_ 22:42:48 | | 22:42:48 >\/| 22:42:52 lots of guys stepping on landmines these days 22:42:55 haha that's awesome 22:43:12 it's actually not a bug though: `\(o_O)/' 22:43:14 thar's the bug 22:43:15 well 22:43:17 it's actually not a bug though: `\(o_o)/' 22:43:22 failure, maybe it is a bug 22:43:38 o_o 22:43:44 o_o_o 22:43:44 | 22:43:44 /< 22:43:55 i am so confused right now 22:44:00 dance of the mutants 22:44:14 and honestly, i do not want to debug this: /((?]|([.o])_?(?!\2)[.o]|ಠ‿ರೃ)/gS 22:44:14 ¯|¯⌠ 22:44:14 /| | 22:44:28 or rewrite it for that matter 22:44:34 /o/ 22:44:34 | 22:44:34 /< 22:44:49 o_o_o o_o_o o_o_o 22:44:52 haha 22:44:55 \o/ 22:44:55 | 22:44:56 >\ 22:45:07 the o_o thing is for the funky faces 22:45:08 /o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ 22:45:08 | | | | 22:45:08 |\ |\ /\ /| 22:45:18 (._) 22:45:19 | 22:45:19 |\ 22:45:33 i could swear it should pick up (o_o) 22:45:35 but it doesn't 22:45:40 (O_o) 22:46:00 (._o) 22:46:00 | 22:46:00 >\ 22:46:05 must be a failure of the first regex 22:46:08 (o) 22:46:15 i wonder if they differ somehow 22:46:16 _o_ 22:46:16 | 22:46:16 >\ 22:46:21 /o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ 22:46:21 | | | | 22:46:21 /'\ /`\ /| |\ 22:46:26 /o/ 22:46:27 | 22:46:27 >\ 22:46:27 /o/ 22:46:27 | 22:46:27 /< 22:46:31 ais523: what's the perl to slurp all of stdin? 22:46:36 ah 22:46:37 or "stdin + arguments", that thing 22:46:37 they do 22:46:43 they can't be the same character 22:46:48 interesting 22:46:49 alise: undef $/; 22:46:50 ais523: just all of stdin in one string 22:46:55 means that Perl won't consider anything a line separator 22:46:56 ais523: nononono, the way that doesn't hurt babies 22:47:08 {local $/; $stdin=<>;} 22:47:11 bug should be fixed 22:47:13 _o_o_ 22:47:21 see, as long as you let no babies between the braces, you should be fine 22:47:38 dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}' 22:47:38 A monad is a pair of higher-order functions which encapsulate the pattern of passing extra parameters between the functions to which they are applied. 22:47:38 Hmm. 22:47:41 THERE. 22:47:42 i think i used something like $_ = join <>, '' somewhere 22:47:49 s/.../\ldots{}/g; 22:47:50 Whoops. 22:47:54 If you want it more readable, ... join it like that. 22:47:54 oerjan: that removes all newlines 22:47:59 !show slashes 22:47:59 perl (sending via DCC) 22:48:05 $_ = join <>, $/; 22:48:11 would add whatever the newline char at the time was 22:48:18 (and as a bonus, $/ is shorter than "\n") 22:48:23 !show slashes 22:48:23 perl (sending via DCC) 22:48:29 $_ = join '', <>; it was 22:48:41 ais523: Yo, ais523, your regexp is crampin' my style 22:48:43 I knew I'd eventually understand it. 22:48:47 s/

/\n\n/g; 22:48:47 s/<\/p>//g; 22:48:48 and that most definitely doesn't remove the newlines 22:48:50 !show pi 22:48:51 This makes it replace all quotes with `` 22:48:51 sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=5; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 bc -l | tr -d '\\' 22:48:54 if I put it before your regexp, man 22:49:06 What's up wit dat, duude. 22:49:19 alise: well, obviously 22:49:19 ais523: oh, does $/ break ^ in regexp? :D 22:49:22 ^ matches the start of a line 22:49:27 obviously why? 22:49:28 indeed 22:49:31 or the start of a string 22:49:37 add the /m flag at the end of the regex 22:49:39 and it'll match newlines 22:49:43 and things like "abc" at the start of

-lines that become "-starting-lines, the " gets replaced with `` 22:50:07 Hmm, it works now. 22:51:45 Anyone know any nice typewriter-y fonts? Not necessarily monospaced, just the kind of thing that /looks/ typewritery/terminaly. 22:51:45 Of course, feel free to tell me I'm still wrong. 22:51:53 To set the monospaced portion of http://qntm.org/dropout. 22:52:31 alise: Something actually typewriter-like? Might I recommend Courier New? 22:52:43 cpressey: you're right pretty much 22:52:57 pikhq: That's monospaced, though; I don't particularly require monospcaed. 22:52:59 *monospaced 22:53:09 although, it's like passing the parameters by reference more than by value 22:53:16 Besides ... Courier is nicer than Courier New. 22:53:17 alise: Yeah, but it's actually typewriter-imitation. 22:53:24 Okay, Courier. 22:53:44 Okay; now tell me of a nice pdfTeX version. :P 22:54:27 Additionally... Is there a nice LaTeX command to set those little "break in text" flourishes used to mark mini-sections (often three stars like ***)? 22:54:33 alise: \usepackage{courier} 22:54:33 Specifically with the space before and after. 22:54:35 ais523: Eeer umm... kinda but also no. 22:54:49 cpressey: also a good description 22:55:46 Oh, and Courier's apparently not merely typewriter-imitation. 22:55:58 It's the actual typeface that was used in most typewriters from the 50s on. 22:56:26 there were multiples, IIRC 22:56:30 Courier, Elite, Orator 22:56:34 but I think Courier was the most common 22:56:51 Yeah, Courier was the most common due to being free to use. 22:58:16 Okay; now how do I use courier with the verbatim environment? 22:58:32 Or does it automatically do that? 22:58:42 "The font that is actually provided is URW Nimbus Mono (A Courier clone)." Oh, great... 22:59:07 Urgh. 22:59:42 Hrm. Terminal-y font? Maybe fixedsys? 23:00:08 Nah, Courier is great for this. 23:00:20 Is there any command in LaTeX for... "vskip one blank line"? Like, including line height and such? 23:00:31 Mmkay. Guess it'll just be a pain getting Courier installed right, then. 23:01:08 Eh, I'll just use the imitation for now. 23:01:24 It's not /awful/ or anything; it's not like monospaced fonts are paragons of typographic excellence, anyway. 23:01:28 "This extra space, especially when co-occurring at a page break, may contain an asterisk, three asterisks, a special stylistic dingbat, or a special symbol known as an asterism." 23:02:03 I love me some asterisms 23:02:06 *asterisms. 23:02:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterism_(typography) contains actual latex code 23:02:13 \newcommand{\asterism}{\smash{% 23:02:13 \raisebox{-.5ex}{% 23:02:13 \setlength{\tabcolsep}{-.5pt}% 23:02:13 \begin{tabular}{@{}cc@{}}% 23:02:13 \multicolumn2c*\\[-2ex]*&*% 23:02:13 \end{tabular}}}} 23:02:15 Yeah. 23:02:24 But I still need that skip-one-line thing. 23:02:50 It seems that that \asterism won't center properly. 23:03:07 \vspace{...some length...}, i presume 23:03:20 \vskip works 23:03:26 but I'd like it to figure out the length for me 23:04:15 there is presumably some length designation for that particular length 23:04:54 oh? 23:05:05 I'm not sure what you mean. 23:05:24 -!- Starmage has joined. 23:05:37 hi Starmage 23:05:39 latex has many length designations, like em for the width of an m 23:05:43 hellow 23:06:39 http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2010-January/015564.html is relevant to the centering 23:07:42 http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2010-January/015565.html says to delete the \smash 23:08:11 \centerline works 23:08:14 thanks 23:08:34 I know about em, that's a standard typographical unit. 23:08:43 I do not believe there is one for "vertical space of one line, including spacing"... 23:10:59 Communication Fail :( 23:12:16 * alise thinks of a name for the break, since \break is taken 23:13:08 http://www.public.asu.edu/~rjansen/latexdoc/ltx-86.html 23:13:47 \baselineskip 23:13:49 \baselineskip + \parskip or something like it 23:13:50 I think 23:14:33 oerjan: no, i'm not so sure 23:14:36 that's just line spacing + par spacing 23:14:39 not the actual length of the line 23:14:42 I think \textheight would do that 23:15:11 -!- Starmage has left (?). 23:15:28 oerjan: oh, and those /set/, silly 23:15:34 I think 23:16:52 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:18:11 um, I'm terribly confused 23:18:44 ? 23:21:34 I got it working, thanks :P 23:21:43 :) 23:22:19 /O/ 23:23:22 pikhq: Sam Hughes could do with a typography lesson. 23:23:30 Or at least, Ed stories-era Sam Hughes could. 23:23:42 Maybe Fine Structure actually has proper quotes and e[nm] dashes. 23:25:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:25:49 "...which would cause the universe as we know it to cease to exist, with potentially devastating consequences." --Ed 23:26:13 potentially. 23:27:11 -!- SimonRC has joined. 23:27:31 * alise wonders why Be Here Now lists the total number of chapters in its chapter titles 23:27:32 oh well 23:27:36 oerjan: Well, Ed is that kind of guy. 23:27:50 Who's Ed? 23:30:35 http://qntm.org/ed 23:30:44 Or, you could wait for my super-duper nicely-typesetted one. 23:30:51 * Phantom_Hoover notes that one of Gaiman's short stories has been made into an obscene number of films 23:31:03 Which? 23:31:14 We Can Get Them For You Wholesale. 23:31:30 Searching for it on Youtube is ridiculous. 23:31:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:32:33 that story is awesome 23:32:41 i didn't know there was a film for it 23:32:49 or (m)any of his others 23:32:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:55 i did see the bbc(?) neverwhere production 23:33:10 myndzi, there are a mad number of student films of that one. 23:33:10 and that one novel.. hell, i can't think of the name of it at the moment 23:33:14 i wanna say star something or other 23:33:21 Stardust? 23:33:24 yeah 23:33:33 i've become rather a fan of gaiman haha 23:33:37 my collection should be about complete 23:33:44 even the kids books ;) 23:34:00 i still need some of the Sandman specials though 23:34:15 I *still* can't find Season of Mist. 23:34:18 Smoke and Mirrors is one of my favorite publications though 23:34:28 I've been looking for *months*. 23:34:32 there's just so MANY good stories in there 23:34:46 * oerjan has read Season of Mist *MWAHAHAHA* 23:34:53 oerjan, DIE. 23:34:59 Or send me your copy. 23:35:09 i didn't say i had a _copy_ :D 23:35:15 AA 23:35:16 i read it at the library 23:35:22 actually oerjan has the original 23:35:22 http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=10919118&matches=15&keyword=season+of+mists&cm_sp=works*listing*title 23:35:24 "Ahhhh, and now I get it," says Ed-B. Now I see why you came back and left everyone behind in your old universe." 23:35:29 You missed an opening quote, Sam. 23:35:39 there are a number of copies starting at around $12 23:35:43 where they presumably still has one (or two, probably at least one in norwegian and one in english) 23:35:52 *have 23:35:59 my Sandman copies are that newer two-tone color cover 23:36:02 oerjan, steal it and drop it off at the top of the Scott Monument at noon on Wednesday. 23:36:03 i liked the other covers better 23:36:12 but i couldn't beat the price and getting to buy them all at once 23:36:33 i kinda wanna buy the covers i liked and sell the other ones or something, but that'd be a pain 23:36:37 and i'm not really all that picky about covers 23:37:16 anyway, gonna have to look up that youtube stuff, sounds fun 23:37:44 why do I have a horizontal scrollbar on this chat window? 23:37:59 cpressey, FASCISM 23:38:01 ask your irc client 23:38:02 i see nothing that failed to wrap 23:38:09 Phantom_Hoover: you visited the link, yes? 23:38:21 Yes, but I couldn't get audio. 23:38:29 i am confused 23:38:41 it is not a link that requires audio 23:38:42 No, I mean me, individually. 23:38:57 it is however a link where you can purchase what you were looking for 23:38:57 :) 23:39:10 cpressey: what about myndzi's last link? 23:39:20 Oh, I thought you were talking about something else. 23:39:33 nope 23:39:35 oerjan: it wrapped 23:40:10 if you scroll down there are some new copies for like $15 23:40:18 i mean, one 23:40:24 * myndzi buys it and goes NYAHAHAHA 23:40:25 ;p 23:40:47 oerjan: er, i'm not terribly interested in the book itself, if that's what you meant 23:40:58 myndzi, UK. 23:41:01 cpressey: no it was just a guess 23:41:13 Phantom_Hoover: so? i'm sure you can find someone who will ship there 23:41:18 oerjan, you know the plan? 23:41:35 would you like me to proxy buy one for you? 23:41:40 yes, it involves a man and a canal in panama 23:42:13 a man, a can, a pan 23:42:45 can a man nap? 23:43:02 can a nan map? 23:43:55 madam, can adam plan a canal? 23:44:27 adam, can madam do anal? 23:44:28 ;p 23:44:46 Phantom_Hoover: i am about to leave; you can drop me a query if you decide you want to take me up on the offer 23:44:54 myndzi, NEVER 23:44:54 and i'll see it later 23:44:58 /o/ 23:45:03 o_O 23:45:10 DAMN YOU! 23:45:14 \o/ 23:45:16 why doesnt work /o/ 23:45:22 |o/ 23:45:28 _o_ 23:45:29 | 23:45:29 |\ 23:45:31 i maek mastake /o/ 23:45:31 | 23:45:31 /`\ 23:45:34 is fix 23:46:52 eep 23:47:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:47:21 -!- augur has joined. 23:47:24 O_o 23:47:30 /o/ 23:47:30 | 23:47:30 >\ 23:47:42 oerjan: im glad you liked my joke :D 23:47:48 is this what you were hunting for? a man, a plan, a canal: panama 23:47:56 Anyone read Ed stories? I know pikhq and Sgeo have. 23:48:15 calamari: hunting? we were already dismembering the body 23:48:19 /o/ _o_ |o| \o\ 23:48:19 | | | | 23:48:19 |\ /| >\ /| 23:48:22 oerjan, I don't see it 23:48:31 guess I lost a line 23:49:03 I ram a lack ok, calamari! 23:49:42 lol 23:50:41 armadillo, rama lama ding dong 23:52:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:53:21 ``I wanna go to Andromeda,'' says Ed, rotating the ship to point 23:53:21 towards an extraordinarily distant blob of light. 23:53:22 ``We can't go to Andromeda,'' I remind him sternly. 23:53:24 Lulz, lampshading. 23:53:42 * oerjan read the Ed stories earlier this year and alise is probably to blame for it 23:53:51 No output. 23:53:58 No output. 23:55:44 oerjan: I told you to read them. So, yeah. 23:55:57 oerjan: Either you didn't like them, or you just wanted to make me feel bad. :P 23:56:00 (wrt "blame") 23:56:38 false dichomoty! 23:56:42 *tomy 23:57:59 oerjan: so what's the true option? :P 23:58:24 pikhq: Okay, do you know the variable to adjust to stop -- from appearing at the start of a line? 23:58:26 It's ugly. 23:58:45 Also, a way to make it disable ligatures when stretching text would be nice. Ha ha, only kidding, I've read the microtype docs, TeX sucks enough that that's impossible. 23:58:51 i thought they were all right, and was joking 2010-08-07: 00:02:01 cpressey, best I can come up with: eyes TAC at a cats eye 00:04:29 thick catseye stack chit ? 00:05:10 eye stack late talk cats eye 00:05:39 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:10:07 I have typeset the Ed stories up to the end of Spacéd; the typography is not perfect, but pretty damn good, and I'd appreciate any comments. pikhq, Sgeo? 00:10:11 I'll give you a PDF if you want. 00:10:24 Email? 00:10:34 * Sgeo is going to start tutoring soon 00:10:38 As in, a few min 00:10:57 Or, a few seconds actually 00:11:24 Let me guess; you're teaching C# to somebody online. 00:11:38 Without, of course, considering whether knowing something is truly equal to being able to teach it ... 00:14:22 Well, he's mostly reading a book (not one that I suggested, one that he chose) and I can answer any questions, etc. etc. 00:14:36 Also, technical difficulties right now :/ 00:15:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:15:28 A few things are lost when converting the Ed stories to dead tree format... 00:15:33 For instance, the lovely little links back everywhere. 00:16:15 * oerjan starts envisioning some system of threads embedded in books for linking 00:19:26 alise, any chance of an ePub version? 00:20:16 Sgeo: Why bother? I am doing this for the typography. 00:20:34 I don't care about ereaders that don't respect typography, i.e. all of them, apart from the ones with a PDF reader. 00:20:55 When this is done, if I get permission from Sam I'll publish it on Lulu in the highest-quality hardback they offer. 00:21:10 clearly we need to tunnel TeX-over-IRC 00:22:18 This is so easy; my converter basically lets me paste the HTML in and it spits out LaTeX. 00:22:30 Add chapter titles, wrap lines for my convenience, replace breaks with \pbreak, remove links... that's about it. 00:22:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:22:39 pikhq: Is there any difference between \emph{c} and $c$? 00:23:17 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:26:59 Aargh, Sam Hughes uses ONE em-dash in a chapter where every other dash is ens -- not even ens, just "-". 00:27:10 Am I meant to RESPECT that crazy, CRAZY wish? 00:27:35 I think I will interpret it as meaning that all breaks in conversation, in quotes, should be em-dashes. 00:33:59 Didn't Sam once rant about Lulu? 00:37:50 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:43:03 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:47:25 Sgeo: Perhaps. I don't know. 00:48:26 http://www.google.com/search?q=lulu&sitesearch=qntm.org 00:48:28 I don't think so. 00:48:42 "Ed stories" is a surprisingly long book. 00:49:08 Up to the end of the first chapter of The End Of The Game, it's 107 pages. 00:54:14 alise, http://qntm.org/faq 00:54:28 It doesn't reference Lulu by name, just as "self-publishing" 00:54:49 erm, major FS spoilers near that question 00:55:44 alise, http://pastie.org/private/chm2vxv8ylymbkzvu4qebq wthout the spoilers. You're just going to have to believe me that that's what it says 01:00:22 alise, you still there, or did I traumatize you? 01:00:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 01:02:50 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:04:33 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:04:59 Sgeo: Well, it's a pretty fucking stupid remark. 01:05:06 Lulu isn't "self-publishing", it's self-printing. 01:05:20 o.O 01:05:24 Actually, that answer is very assholish for Sam. 01:05:24 What's the difference >.> 01:05:49 Sgeo: Self-publishing is like PublishAmerica. Self-printing is just: you give them the PDF, the near-bitmap (well, vector) of what you fucking want on the page, and they supply the hardback. 01:05:58 Gutenberg over TCP/IP. There's nothing disrespectful about that. 01:06:02 Nothing loser-y. 01:06:16 Deja Vu 01:06:18 Severe Deja Vu 01:06:50 Sgeo: ? 01:07:16 Regarding the Gutenberg comment, watching someone play the game, and tutoring this person 01:07:21 Like I've done exactly this before 01:07:55 -!- sshc has joined. 01:08:33 Well. You haven't. 01:08:47 Intellectually, I know that 01:12:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:15:17 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:18:04 !simpleacro 01:18:07 OR 01:19:12 Onomatopoeia Reduction 01:19:21 !simpleacro 01:19:24 SKBKNFZB 01:19:47 Sexy Klingons Bonking Knaves Nightly, Fucking Zaphod's Beetles. 01:20:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:20:26 alise: interesting analysis. 01:21:36 (Smalltalk > CSharp) ifFalse: [ Transcript show: 'Liar!' ] 01:22:20 Sgeo: Wanna take on a menial job for me? You'll get recognition in the colophon, which is what you like to be paid in, right? :P 01:22:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:22:35 colophon? 01:23:21 The little bit in small, centred text at the start of a book that tells you what typeface it uses and the copyright notes and everything. 01:23:27 Ah 01:23:34 Depends on what the menial job is 01:23:39 I'd put you on the Thanks page, except I don't think I should put my thanks on other people's novels. 01:23:41 Smalltalk ifTooMuchExpressionification [exit] 01:24:10 +: 01:24:11 CakeProphet, you forgot a : 01:24:15 :D 01:24:22 well 01:24:30 Too bad blocks can't be messages, afaik 01:24:32 too much expressionification is fine in a language, but it better be terse. 01:24:34 Sgeo: Read my beautifully-typeset (but-not-quite-perfectly!) production of the Ed stories, and tell me every time you see a short dash - like -, not -- - in "something a character is saying, as if their speech was broken off-". The exact quote would be nice, but chapter is fine too. 01:24:48 There will be no long -- dashes until the later paragraphs, which should make it a whole lot easier. 01:25:02 As a bonus, you get to gawp over my wonderful typesetting. :P 01:25:15 Fun fact: It's 130 pages. 01:25:15 Isn't it easy to just search for -? 01:25:24 You should name Humanistic Conceit 01:25:38 CakeProphet: wat 01:25:41 (the typeface, I assume) 01:25:47 Sgeo: Except that outside "speech", it /should/ be -. 01:26:01 Ok, so this will be incredibly easy 01:26:10 Just need to use my humanness 01:26:38 Eh, I'm actually doing it manually. 01:26:45 alise: I was suggesting a name for any conceited typefaces you might make. 01:26:45 Don't worry, I'll find you another menial task you can do for recognition! 01:26:51 CakeProphet: Ah. 01:27:05 conceited typeface? 01:27:08 though fungot tends to be better at this sort of thing. 01:27:09 CakeProphet: moral heroism, on the contrary, have omitted no pains to instruct them, blame them for giving ear to the demagogue who took pains to delude them? we must have nomination at gatton because we have launched our ship with a reconciled spirit, and have maintained that the resistance of power, and of the surrounding region. the security, which it is impossible not to observe, that the speaker must infallibly come back t 01:30:57 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:31:11 I feel as though I am perhaps insane. 01:32:51 Sgeo: So, want to take a look at the draft version? 01:33:24 CakeProphet: it's all the alien spider goblins' fault! 01:33:28 alise, I.. guess 01:33:55 Sgeo: GOOD! MWAHAHAHA SLAVE http://filebin.ca/fxgocj/ed.pdf 01:34:19 I included "Free, Standing" as an epilogue. It works well. 01:35:35 everything works well when you have balls the size of planets. 01:36:50 Why isn't there a table of contents? 01:37:14 Sgeo: Because novels shouldn't have tables of contents. 01:37:19 oerjan: hyuk hyuk hyuk 01:37:44 ....since when did #esoteric become #typography 01:37:49 Three minutes ago. 01:38:03 CakeProphet: it was inevitable, really. 01:38:40 hmmm. I guess? I have absolutely no interest in typography. 01:39:21 So you have said. 01:57:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:00:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 02:01:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:18:43 Sgeo: any comments on ed.pdf? 02:19:15 What's so special about typesetting? 02:19:20 It all just looks like text 02:19:33 I was about to ask some questions ... but never mind. 02:19:45 What were those questions? 02:20:05 I'm not sure the page-big part headings are such a good idea; I think Be Here Now, for instance, should be lead into naturally, not announced. But then I can't see how to make that consistent with the other parts, which aren't named in their chapter titles. 02:20:14 But if you're not even seeing the point of typesetting, erm, never mind. 02:20:47 Makes text look pretty, I guess? 02:21:19 Sgeo: you got it. 02:21:31 CakeProphet: No, he hasn't. 02:23:09 well, barring any sort of pretension 02:23:19 the basic idea of typography is to make visually appealing type. 02:23:41 that is not true 02:23:43 and has never been true 02:24:19 the basic idea of typography is to make /readable/ type, to the finest degree possible: this ends up being visually appealing to get your mind into a consistent reading rhythm in accordance with the whitespace, etc. 02:24:48 after all, if you -- subconsciously -- flag anything as looking "awkward", even if you don't realise it, it jarrs just a little, and all those jars add up. Leaving the door ajar. I'm very, very tired. 02:25:10 right. There's the functional aspect of typography. That's why calligraphic typefaces usually are not good for large volumes of text 02:25:15 Data, SLEEP 02:25:21 even though they're visually appealing. 02:25:33 CakeProphet: yes 02:25:39 i thought you hated typography :) 02:25:49 doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. :) 02:25:58 and hate is too strong. I don't hate fields of study. 02:26:18 I just personally would not devote serious amounts of time to it. 02:28:09 Interests are a bit arbitrary. 02:28:26 true. I like fucking cows, for instance. 02:28:53 I suppose if I could save the world with typography I would devote some time to it 02:29:06 maybe a world peace treaty that's so well set, no one could possibly refuse. 02:29:07 You can save the world by fucking cows? 02:29:24 no, the saving-the-world condition is only valid for typography 02:29:27 not for interests in general. 02:29:43 Meanwhile: 02:29:44 04:52:54 fizzie: i like cows 02:29:45 alise: dr. rutherford ( middlesex, brentford) rose to move as an amendment, that the nation ought to be fnord had a great battle which arrested the armies of france or austria. if his happiness coincides with the desires, of any state in the presence of dost mahomed. then came a notification that dost mahomed would not make his appearance there. in the garrets was his library, a large and growing party in the nation; and for th 02:30:28 .... 02:30:35 fungot astounds me with each sentence. 02:30:36 CakeProphet: froissart, character of the scotch universities. war with china, the. 02:31:06 ^style 02:31:06 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube 02:31:11 ^style irc 02:31:11 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 02:31:13 fungot: duck butts 02:31:13 alise: cool. does anyone know of any way to connect 02:31:15 It basically func- 02:31:15 tions like a trapdoor ten seconds forwards in time. Nothing can come back the 02:31:15 other way – that would result in an ešect preceding a cause, which would cause the 02:31:15 1920 CHAPTER 7. THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD 02:31:15 universe as we know it to cease to exist, with potentially devastating consequences. 02:31:26 Sgeo: That copied badly, but yes? 02:31:38 the - 02:31:43 Also, I like that line 02:31:48 I already quoted the universe-ceasing-to-exist part ;P 02:32:04 Oh, you don't have the new version with the em dashes, I see. 02:32:21 Sgeo: However, I realised that what I said isn't quite true. 02:32:29 - is correct when surrounded by spaces. 02:32:34 It should be -- when speech is being cut off or resumed. 02:32:34 truth is overrated. 02:32:38 Here, I will upload the newest PDF for you. 02:32:47 Meh 02:32:58 alise: are you getting free labor out of Sgeo? o_o I find this amazing. 02:33:05 Sgeo: You sure do appreciate my work. 02:33:13 CakeProphet: No, I did it all myself instead. But yes: credit him and he'll do anything. 02:33:22 It's like currency, but FREE! 02:33:25 Sgeo: http://filebin.ca/jvtunb/ed.pdf 02:33:41 Don't wanna lost my place :( 02:33:56 Sgeo: if you win the Nobel Prize for me I'll credit you. 02:34:03 *a 02:34:23 Sgeo: Note the page number. 02:34:37 though it would be interesting if there was only one nobel prize... like a wrestling championship belt. 02:34:54 Every year the champion had to out-academic the contestor. 02:37:37 alise: if you can devise a typeface that is composed of fractals then I will be intrigued. 02:37:59 CakeProphet: That's not hard. 02:38:17 Just find some fractals that look like letters; I'm sure there's some sufficiently generic meta-fractal you could supply parameters to to get that. 02:38:23 Even just warping an existing fractal. 02:38:24 Meh. 02:38:26 alise: well neither am I, thanks to your mom. :) 02:38:42 BAM 02:44:00 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:51:39 "there's already a design for replacement red blood cells that are so much more efficient that if you replaced your red blood cells with them, you could hold your breath for four hours. We just can't build them. Yet." 02:56:33 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:31 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:02:01 Sgeo: source? 03:02:44 http://digitalkingdom.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=My+Views+On+The+Future 03:05:25 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 03:06:52 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:10:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:11:17 Now I wrote PipeTeX, I want you to please see this program http://sprunge.us/USOE 03:24:21 And if you have any suggestions 03:24:45 (It might be difficult to figure out without a printout) 03:33:21 Do you want my character to eat your arm, and then fix it, and then pay you back double (because east pays/receives double)? 03:34:00 Or would you rather learn to stand on the ceiling in a different language? 03:34:17 * alise reads 03:34:42 zzo38: I think that you are crazy. 03:34:58 However, I am in awe. I think. 03:35:05 alise: Perhaps I am crazy, but is that sufficiently relevent? 03:35:18 Wrt that paste, yes. 03:35:19 :D 03:35:46 alise: OK. 03:36:18 Do you have any suggestions or anything like that, having to do with the program? 03:36:45 Not really, I'm afraid. 03:39:50 Windows has named pipes? 03:40:00 Some people might say Don Knuth is also a bit crazy, and perhaps it is? 03:40:19 zzo38, I don't think a single person in this room is _sane_, so.. 03:40:28 Sgeo: Yes, Windows has named pipes, but you have to use the system call CreateNamedPipe and ConnectNamedPipe it is a server/client program. 03:40:36 Dust Jacket Hardcover: A book bound in navy blue linen with a full-color dust jacket. 03:40:37 case Casewrap Hardcover: Full-color, glossy cover; no dust jacket. 03:40:38 Hm. 03:41:29 Sgeo: But they are all in a directory called \\.\pipe or in \Device\NamedPipe in the NT object manager. (If you have the "ddd" program I wrote, you can make a list of named pipes by typing "ddd z: \Device\NamedPipe" and then "dir z:") 03:41:44 * Sgeo barely knows what a named pipe is 03:41:58 Actually, why not use regular pipes for this? 03:42:29 Sgeo: Because it has to go on both sides 03:42:34 pikhq: ping 03:44:05 * Sgeo wonders if zzo38 is an Order of the Stick fan 03:44:22 Sgeo: No. 03:49:01 -!- Warrigal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:49:17 (Do you think this program is understandable better with a printout?) 03:49:26 anyone know if its possible to install linux onto a partition without using a CD? 03:50:39 -!- Warrigal has joined. 03:50:58 augur: Probably it is possibly in some way? 03:51:02 augur: Sure, there are USB installs. 03:51:11 augur: Plus if you have Windows, there are installs you can do that boot from Windows. 03:51:44 aha hm 03:52:29 WTF 03:52:32 WTF WTF WTF 03:52:39 I can't believe I didn't notice until just now 03:52:55 Pharo uses, for its default font for code, a non-monospaced font 03:52:59 Who DOES that? 03:53:23 What is Pharo? 03:53:23 * Sgeo wonders how much that subconsiously elicited some opinion about Smalltalk 03:53:33 zzo38, a .. Smalltalk thingy. A fork of Squeak 03:59:28 Do you like to learn about Forth programming? 04:00:32 In Forth, you can lets say, to define conditions. The IF must jump to the corresponding THEN if the condition is not true, but IF is read first, so we must put a mark in there. We can make a helping word: : ORIG HERE 0 , ; 04:00:52 Now: : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ; 04:03:01 pikhq: I found out the Horror behind Memoir. 04:03:02 To do ELSE it will be the IF jumps to ELSE if false, but ELSE jumps to THEN regardless. Since the jumps will be in the switched around order ( [IF [ELSE] THEN] ) we can do it like: : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ; 04:03:11 Sgeo: Why do you need a monospaced font for code? 04:03:19 alise: What is the Horror behind Memoir? 04:03:36 zzo38: It won't automatically resize the page layout if you change the dimensions! Aaagh! 04:03:39 alise, ... it's what everyone's used to. I guess it makes more sense for Python than anything else 04:04:02 Sgeo: ... Why Python?! 04:04:07 Non-monospaced fonts are better for prettyprinted programs, such as web program. 04:04:10 Also, /nobody/ is used to Smalltalk. 04:04:25 For loops, we need BEGIN ... AGAIN and BEGIN ... UNTIL and BEGIN ... WHILE ... REPEAT 04:04:51 I think Smalltalk being the first language I've seen non-monospaced code in made me have an artificially high opinion of it 04:04:52 The beginning of a loop does nothing, it is just a marker for the repeat part to jump back to, thus: : BEGIN` HER ; 04:04:59 : BEGIN` HERE ; 04:05:39 The AGAIN just jumps back: : AGAIN` GOTO` , ; 04:06:29 For UNTIL it is like AGAIN but we repeat until the condition is true, that is, repeat if the condition is false: : UNTIL` 0=GOTO` , ; 04:06:47 WHILE is just like IF: : WHILE` IF` ; 04:07:40 REPEAT at the end of a BEGIN ... WHILE loop is just repeat back to the beginning (unconditionally), but again the IF blocks are in backward order, thus: : REPEAT` SWAP AGAIN` THEN` ; 04:07:44 See? Forth is so simple. 04:07:57 What is your opinion? 04:08:09 Also, non-monospacing makes it harder to see . and : 04:09:00 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:09:05 Sgeo: Perhaps if you want non-monospacing you can also prettyprint it like Enhanced CWEB does for C programs. (For Smalltalk, you would have to do it differently, though) 04:10:35 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:12:16 "Call me when this test fails, I want your machine" 04:14:53 Sgeo: What test do you mean? 04:15:04 sz := 1024*1024*1024*1024. 04:15:04 self should:[Array new: sz] raise: OutOfMemory. 04:23:36 Latest version of Ed stories: http://filebin.ca/mjced/ed.pdf 04:24:07 * Sgeo should eat something soonish 04:25:30 Sgeo: Eat your arm and then make a spell to fix it? (O no, you are not that kind of monster in D&D) 04:26:56 Ouch, on page 64: "He'd" that looks like "Hed" with a ' on top. 04:26:58 Needs more spacing. 04:28:23 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 04:35:23 alise: I need to add some more spacing between fucks of your mother. 04:35:30 it's getting kind of ridiculous 04:35:35 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 04:35:57 CakeProphet is writing this WHILE having sex with your mother, y'know. 04:36:08 But it's like the fourth time today, so it's painful ... and spongy. 04:37:03 nah I just inject meth directly into my penis 04:37:07 so that I never orgasm. 04:37:29 ...so painful, yes. But not spongy. 04:37:55 http://filebin.ca/rabery/ed.pdf 04:38:21 The @@@o command (look up "Command o" in the index) can be used to measure the minimum width that a paragraph can fit into. 04:38:58 (Which is something that I believe TeX does not have built in, and that there is no way to do it using the built-in commands) 04:39:11 in the context of that command, I am a paragraph and your mom is what I'm fitting into. 04:39:44 CakeProphet: Do you mean *my* mom? I don't think so. 04:39:56 well 04:40:07 I am referring to the Platonic ideal "your mom" 04:40:13 the essence of the idea. 04:40:17 CakeProphet: O, OK. 04:40:20 :) 04:40:32 the Platonic ideal your mom just happens to be a milf. 04:41:01 If you are talking about Platonic ideals about "your mom" I suppose we do not have to worry about it 04:45:53 Do you know what kind of creature my D&D character is and what kind of spell they have that nobody else would ever think of using? 04:46:51 Ok, how many things did Smalltalk invent o.O 04:47:15 Windowed GUIs, IDEs, and unit testing?!?!? 04:47:51 Sgeo: Did it? Anything else? 04:48:18 [I think Windowed GUIs might be overly broad] 04:48:25 Um, OOP, obviously 04:49:39 Sgeo: Object-oriented programming, as well as various other things that some people have heard of and other things that nobody has every heard of, has been done a lot in Forth, too, they are nothing new, Forth already can do all of these things and more, you just to implement them using simple codes like the examples I posted above (in this IRC) 04:51:40 (Some of the documentation of PipeTeX could be improved a bit, I might do so in the next version, as well as adding additional commands) 04:58:50 I wish my computer was fast enough to do HD. 04:59:00 Disconnecting in 4min 04:59:02 zzo38: ForthTeX 04:59:32 alise: That is idea! 05:00:48 {{\sf FORTH}\TeX}\ForthTeX\def 05:01:07 {Introduction to the \ForthTeX manual}\mychapterthing 05:01:40 alise: You mean like a stack based where each {} is an entry on the stack? 05:01:54 {...} is basically a quoting command 05:02:02 \foo precedes commands, non-commands are "printed" basically 05:02:16 Perhaps then you also need instead of \ForthTeX put a different kind of symbol meaning by name instead of by value? 05:02:19 so we can pretend that \sf is like a forth word that "reads a bunch of text" and sets it in sans-serif, up to the next { or \ 05:02:30 zzo38: you're probably right 05:02:31 unless you do 05:02:33 alise: O, OK. 05:02:37 {{\sf FORTH}\TeX}\def\ForthTeX 05:02:42 which would be more like Forth 05:02:43 or even 05:02:53 \def\ForthTex {\sf FORTH}\TeX \end 05:02:58 which is exactly like forth 05:03:05 alise: Yes, it is more like how Forth does it 05:03:08 \: \ForthTex {\sf FORTH}\TeX \; % you see where I'm going with this 05:03:14 Actually, that would be pretty darn cool... 05:03:26 Although, in Forth you can change things around to work in many different ways 05:05:18 In that last example, { and } would be commands to enter and exit a group to save information, so that \sf switches the font of the current group, and } put thing from the group back how it was before, you could have it like a stack, and then copy information alloted at the HERE mark and move it ahead, so that then you move it back afterward, that is one way. 05:05:46 Yes. 05:05:48 \begin 05:05:48 Hello, world! 05:05:48 \n\@ \1 \+ \n\! 05:05:48 \n \10 \< \until 05:06:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:06:02 Presumably \[integer] would just push [integer]. 05:06:20 Actually the louf typesetting system is slightly similar to this. Not really, though; it's more functional than stack. 05:06:58 alise: Yes, that would be how it does. And then \begin and \until inside of a definition like Forth, are just immediate words to keep track of the addresses for jumping back to, and so on 05:07:43 Yeah. 05:07:46 But you would need \n\@ \10 \< 05:07:57 (Otherwise you are comparing it with the address of \n) 05:08:16 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 05:08:47 I think TeX is a pretty good typesetting system, however there are some weaknesses which is why I wrote PipeTeX. 05:09:42 (Although, there are other ways as well, such as e-TeX, EncTeX, MLTeX, LuaTeX, XeTeX, LaTeX, and so on) 05:09:57 But I wrote PipeTeX instead. 05:10:38 So that you can use it even with later verions of TeX, possibly, too. 05:10:41 Your TeX will almost certainly include e-TeX. 05:11:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:11:45 alise: You might be right about that. Still, I don't know about what things e-TeX actually does. 05:12:14 But with PipeTeX, I can make a paragraph box with the minimum width that it will fit, if I want to. 05:12:49 -!- deathmoniac has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:13:54 e-TeX just tweaks some stuff and adds some built-in commands. 05:14:03 You're probably using it without realising it 05:14:04 *it. 05:15:14 5am 05:15:16 gotta sleep smetime 05:15:17 *sometime 05:17:03 why the fuck wont usb-creator-gtk use a goddamn minimal iso >_< 05:18:07 * pikhq returneth 05:21:17 augur: use unetbootin 05:21:24 trust me, it's a lot more pleasant 05:22:10 God it's nice having things to *go* to. 05:30:07 make me sleep ghost of sgeo 05:30:26 alise: NETE 05:30:35 wat 05:30:39 SLEEP 05:34:37 pikhq: but- 05:34:40 it's only /just/ brightened 05:35:04 well okay but 05:35:07 i leave you with this 05:35:08 http://filebin.ca/rabery/ed.pdf 05:35:28 pikhq: you will possibly enjoy the viewing of this memoir-typesetting of a sam hughes story. 05:35:41 Oooh, ed. 05:35:49 yeppers 05:35:53 typeset the nicest i can 05:35:57 comments on a postcard or to the logs 05:36:00 bye! 05:36:03 Bye. 05:36:05 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:36:08 Nicely done. 05:39:57 -!- cal153 has joined. 05:44:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:48:04 -!- augur has joined. 05:54:12 aww bye alise :( 05:55:48 MUST ... WRITE ... MICROCOSM ... VFS ... 05:56:03 what? 05:56:39 * pikhq gives Gregor a time injection 05:56:56 augur: http://codu.org/projects/microcosm/ 05:57:04 An insane project that AnMaster and pikhq forced me to start. 05:57:18 a time injection sounds like something from dr who 05:57:20 I started it under the condition that I wouldn't have to do this shit. 05:57:21 We like insanity. 05:57:22 :P 05:57:39 Gregor: i dont get it 05:57:41 but whatever 05:57:43 it doesnt matter 05:57:43 :D 05:57:54 I'm a bit busy trying to prevent myself from becoming a complete hikikomori ATM, so. :P 05:59:00 There are other ways to combine Forth with TeX, as well. One idea is, add a \forth command to TeX, which means switch into Forth mode (TeX's eyes no longer see the file), and it is processed by Forth, until Forth executes a [TEX] command to switch back. It would normally be a outer command, so things like \def\xyz{\forth 1 3 + . [TEX]} will just make \xyz to expand as "1 3 + . [TEX]" and then switch to Forth mode the next time TeX's eyes would 06:01:43 And then have ASSIGN-GULLET ASSIGN-STOMACH ASSIGN-INTESTINES to define TeX control sequences with functions of Forth codes assigned to them to work in that part of the processing 06:02:46 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:03:16 And then TEX-HOOK to hook various parts of the processing of TeX 06:07:34 Perhaps you could include a file of Forth codes by typing \expandafter\forth\input 06:26:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:34:18 -!- augur has joined. 06:48:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:07:10 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:13:13 -!- augur has joined. 07:14:31 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:15:37 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:19:53 -!- cheater99 has joined. 07:22:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:23:01 -!- augur has joined. 07:35:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:54:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:54:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 07:54:52 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 07:55:07 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 07:58:27 -!- augur has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:53:25 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:04:52 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:09:45 -!- cal153 has joined. 09:14:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:52:32 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:53:05 -!- dbc has joined. 09:59:22 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:59:27 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 10:02:02 -!- ronnie has joined. 10:05:15 -!- augur has joined. 10:05:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:05:59 -!- augur has joined. 10:06:05 -!- ronnie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:10:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:20:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:20:25 -!- augur has joined. 10:28:32 -!- tombom has joined. 10:42:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:45:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:53:38 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 10:58:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:00:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:01:47 CakeProphet! 11:12:18 ... 11:22:07 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 11:25:20 Well, where did you leave it? 11:27:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 11:30:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:47:33 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:12:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost marble). 12:13:28 -!- AnMaster has joined. 12:31:55 -!- Flonk has joined. 12:32:10 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 12:33:07 * Phantom_Hoover notes that it would take over 333 days to read all of Schlock Mercenary on Archive Binge's fastest setting. 12:52:42 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 13:01:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:02:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 13:05:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:08:07 fungot 13:08:08 Phantom_Hoover: maybe one could name kim deal, too. 13:08:16 ^style 13:08:16 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 13:08:27 ^style discworld 13:08:27 Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) 13:08:29 fungot 13:08:29 Phantom_Hoover: ' most people do,' said 13:14:07 fungot: Said who? 13:14:08 fizzie: there was a short man in a suit of armour. there was a pulse there, but that's only because he wants to show he's willing. very willing lad, brutha." 13:20:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 13:23:03 -!- alise has joined. 14:18:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:55:52 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 15:04:02 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 15:16:36 on the subject of urgency 15:24:05 pikhq: So, memoir really sucks in one way. 15:28:22 Memoir? 15:33:17 The only LaTeX document class that matters. 15:33:36 It does books, articles, memos, notes, poetry, ... 15:34:16 Its manual is a veritable tome of knowledge; a complete book with beautiful little miniatures of various page layouts and the corresponding code, and such. It contains much history about typography and information on why you might want to do things certain ways, but also includes all the information you need to completely change the entire page layout, just using memoir's commands. 15:34:25 It's also backwards-compatible with the article class and probably others. 15:35:05 The only thing that sucks about it is that if you use a non-standard paper size, I don't think it has a way to automatically "scale" the proportions of a built-in page layout for a similar size, down to fit your page. 15:35:14 So you have to specify all the values manually, which is... not easy if you're not good at that. 15:44:25 Quadrescence: \enlargethispage{3\baselineskip} % is this considered okay if i have e.g. an epilogue which i want to fit on one page rather than having a few dangling lines on the next page? 15:45:05 alise: Wellllllll it's really a hack and not very nice to do that but I guess you could get away with it 15:45:13 Especially if you don't want to solve it this second 15:45:30 Quadrescence: can't really be solved; the only thing i could do is make the "chapter" heading appear higher on the page 15:45:35 and I'm not certain how to do that with memoir 15:45:46 alise: \usepackage{fullpage} :)))))))) 15:45:54 \usepackage{savetrees} 15:46:03 I've already committed such a sin once, anyway: 15:46:10 \enlargethispage{2\baselineskip} 15:46:10 \enlargethispage{2\parskip} 15:46:10 \pbreak 15:46:27 dear lord just use the above packages you will not be disappointed 15:46:27 To make the \pbreak (basically a centred \asterism with some space around it) fit on the end of the page, rather than the beginning of the next page. 15:46:32 Quadrescence: nothx 15:46:34 use *one of the above packages 15:46:35 hahahaha 15:46:37 why not???? 15:46:45 y do u h8 on savetrees 15:46:47 do you not like trees 15:46:54 i hate trees and i like whitespace :) 15:47:04 "The goal of the savetrees package is to pack as much text as possible onto each page 15:47:04 A 15:47:05 of a L TEX document. Admittedly, this makes the document far less attractive." 15:47:06 even they admit it! 15:47:24 "• At most two authors are listed. The remainder are replaced by “et al.”" 15:47:25 see, that's EVIL! 15:47:27 ;D 15:47:34 haha 15:47:45 wow, savetrees is like a tree nazi 15:47:47 \usepackage{fullpage} 15:47:52 "DECREASE! EVERYTHING!" 15:48:11 Quadrescence: but dammit, I like my whitespace :) 15:48:21 It just uses a full page 15:48:25 it doesn't do other things 15:48:25 Quadrescence: anyway i'm not fucking greatly with layout until I figure out how to get memoir working with a smaller size 15:48:30 \usepackage[oneletterperpage]{killallthestupidtrees} 15:48:41 yeah, but memoir purposefully pushes the chapter headings down 15:48:45 fizzie: hahaha 15:48:48 for aesthetic reasons 15:48:54 alise: I'm aware 15:49:04 alise: How about you just ignore it for now 15:49:05 Quadrescence: you got any idea how to give memoir a custom paper size and give it one of its default layouts and tell it "go scale"? 15:49:13 No 15:49:15 i'm too scared to define my own values, the default ones are fine 15:49:16 You don't want to do that 15:49:17 Quadrescence: dammit 15:49:20 Quadrescence: i do though :) 15:49:24 No you don't 15:49:29 If you're going to care about aesthetics 15:49:45 I care about aesthetics; I'm just not very good at specifying arbitrary values like that. 15:49:56 They aren't arbitrary 15:49:56 what trim paper size does The Quadrescence Press use? :P 15:50:08 they're arbitrary to me, though; i.e. i just see a number box 15:50:15 I know they are to you 15:50:17 But they aren't 15:50:35 Yes, of course, I agree. 15:50:36 alise: finish your document in its entirety then worry about this stuff 15:50:41 Quadrescence: it is finished 15:50:49 Oh okay, do you want to send it to me 15:50:56 no :D 15:50:57 do you want me to screw with it 15:51:04 I c. 15:51:15 wellll okay but I reserve the right to then screw with it again completely 15:51:38 it's just yet another typesetting of someone else's work because I am ~not cool enough to write~ 15:51:46 * alise tars it up 15:51:50 what 15:52:06 I would tell you exactly what to do, it's just hard for "visual things" 15:52:11 like visual basic 15:52:22 heh 15:52:46 Quadrescence: do you have the Minion Pro package installed? 15:52:57 Yeah 15:53:04 great 15:53:09 http://filebin.ca/wohxwx/ed.tar 15:53:12 Oh god you're using minion 15:53:18 "pdflatex ed.tex", etc. 15:53:21 Quadrescence: is that a bad thing? :D 15:53:28 yes it is 15:53:33 :(( 15:53:37 i've been playing with other typefaces for it 15:53:47 minion is just my fallback so I don't have to look at computer modern when tweaking stuff 15:53:54 but what's wrong with minion? 15:54:13 What's wrong with CM? 15:54:33 well, it's not exactly ideal for long prose, like all didone/modern typefaces imo 15:54:45 more to the point, what's wrong with minion? 15:55:27 Nothing is ``wrong'' with it, I just don't really like when people use it. I mean, it's a pretty OK typeface, maybe it's that Wolfram Research uses it 15:56:01 oh, I wasn't aware that Wolfram used it. 15:56:13 Also, the kerning of some characters is weird 15:56:18 Quadrescence: otoh, bringhurst uses it 15:56:35 I'm sure a lot of people do because it makes them Hip and Different 15:56:41 actually, kerning is pissing me off right now; TeX is stupid enough that microtype suffers, because you can't disable kerning selectively properly 15:56:47 (only when it's needed and shit) 15:57:11 Minion makes you Hip and Different? gee, I really don't hang out in the kind of places where I'd find that kind of information :P 15:57:14 alise: did you try \usepackage[bitstream]{mathdesign} 15:57:20 i think that's the package 15:57:28 i dislike bitstream fonts 15:57:49 TeX Gyre Schola or whatever they're calling it these days -- the New Century Schoolbook-based one -- worked okay 15:58:24 You dislike the fonts in the package I suggested? 15:58:57 Presumably [bitstream] is the Bitstream Vera fonts? 15:59:06 No, definitely not 15:59:11 I haven't actually got mathdesign installed, it seems; I'll rectify that. 15:59:14 Bitstream Vera is not my cup of tea 15:59:26 Quadrescence: Huh; I wonder which then. 15:59:39 Bitstream don't have any other Free with a capital E fonts afaik. 15:59:55 oh 15:59:58 ehird@dinky:~/Documents/ed$ aptitude search mathdesign 15:59:58 ehird@dinky:~/Documents/ed$ 16:00:00 ffffffff 16:00:07 \usepacakge[charter]{mathdesign} 16:00:11 ah bitstream charter 16:00:32 "Bitstream Charter is a typeface optimized for printing on the low-resolution 300 dpi laser printers of the 1980s." xP 16:00:47 blurgh; I need to isntall mathdesign now 16:00:57 Well, I can think of alternatives 16:00:58 or, no, wait 16:01:02 just use the charter package 16:01:33 Quadrescence: unacceptable; doesn't have Greek 16:01:39 wrong 16:01:40 it does 16:01:48 ERROR: I can't find file `grmn1200'. -- oh, do I need to delete the .aux crap? 16:01:53 texlive-fonts-extra in ubuntu has mathdesign.sty. 16:02:09 I use Greek for exactly one letter, heh: 16:02:15 "I was expecting orange light to fall across us as 16:02:15 we arrived in the {\greektext e}Eri system at a relative speed small 16:02:15 enough to make it appear that we were at a standstill." 16:02:35 Quadrescence: well, it certainly isn't telling me it has greek 16:02:40 even after rming the aux files 16:03:18 Well remove the \greekletter crap right now then which is probably specific to the minion package anyway 16:04:02 also it compiled for me with mathdesign 16:04:03 Quadrescence: no it is not 16:04:06 it is the babel package 16:04:07 except for textssc 16:04:14 which is the standard way to do these things ... 16:04:21 or maybe scc, i don't remember 16:04:43 you don't now of babel, really? 16:04:55 I know of babel, I just don't typeset greek 16:05:02 xP 16:06:27 Quadrescence: what latex font do you think is the most similar to georgia? 16:06:32 that's the original typeface the text was set in 16:07:02 um charter is kind of close 16:07:52 fouriernc? 16:08:10 I swear: none of these have Greek. 16:08:21 Maybe math-mode Greek, but not actual-text Greek. 16:08:47 TeX Gyre Schola is better than New Century Schoolbook so tgschola > fouriernc 16:09:01 and it's a pretty close match, Georgia is just ... plumper and less serify. Damn, I need to learn the terminology. 16:09:53 Why don't you just use Georgia with xelatex? 16:10:27 georgia is designed for screen and, I dunno, I've never liked XeLaTeX much 16:10:46 Did you try \usepackage{kerkis}? 16:11:07 ERROR: LaTeX Error: File `kerkis.sty' not found. 16:11:18 time to find what texlive package it's in; sigh 16:11:25 I'll upload the pdf 16:11:29 thanks 16:11:30 so you can look before you go check it out 16:11:36 s/textssc/textsc/ btw if not using minion 16:12:16 ah, it's based on Bookman? skeptical, but ok 16:12:26 TeX Gyre Bonum is probably better 16:12:30 as far as Bookmans go 16:12:31 but I'll see 16:12:38 http://www.file-pasta.com/file/0/ed.pdf 16:13:24 that capital E is /freaky/ 16:13:43 Haha quit looking at the giant E at the start 16:13:48 :D 16:13:53 Quadrescence: i'm going to try xelatex just to see 16:15:49 Quadrescence: Wow, \LaTeX looks fucked up in Georgia. The a is lowercase. 16:15:58 haha 16:16:14 Well, XeLaTeX doesn't do \textsc properly, it seems; actually, wait ... does Georgia even have small caps? 16:16:25 probably not who knows 16:17:11 Linux Libertine O looks nice ... 16:17:21 ...but nothing like Georgia :P 16:17:25 pah 16:17:27 i nearly nearly give up 16:17:49 i love how many badnesses it complains about 16:17:50 it's so bad. 16:19:06 Quadrescence: Maybe I'll just convert it to lout and become a hermit and bang sticks and rocks together to make runes. 16:19:17 hahaha 16:19:18 do it 16:19:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:20:03 I wonder if TeX Gyre Pagella has less awful quote marks than URW Palatino. 16:22:33 Hehe, LuaTeX can't even load microtype. 16:22:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:23:20 Quadrescence: wait, there's an opentype to t1 converter, isn't there? 16:23:35 maybe it only works for minion 16:23:47 If you're thinking about converting georgia to something usable with latex 16:23:51 stop thinking 16:24:06 base=$(basename "$font" .otf) 16:24:06 cfftot1 "$font" "pfb/$base.pfb" 16:24:06 t1dotlessj "pfb/$base.pfb" "pfb/${base}LCDFJ.pfb" 16:24:14 Quadrescence: why :D microtype support and the like? 16:24:39 minion could only be converted because someone spent a lot of time tweaking things, preparing fontinst files, and making a .sty file 16:24:46 yeah 16:24:56 i was only musing 16:25:14 maybe i should just email the author and ask him what he'd like it set in. 16:28:09 or just forget about it and set his new novel but i'd have to read it first 16:28:12 or just give up on typesetting 16:28:14 and become a hermit 16:28:16 and sleep forever 16:28:20 yeah. let's go with that one 16:35:25 brb: rebooting into windows to see if it can handle HD 16:35:46 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:38:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:46:30 -!- derdon has joined. 17:08:21 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:53:42 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:10:52 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:17:06 -!- SimonRC has joined. 18:21:35 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 18:25:39 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:29:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:58:24 -!- alise has joined. 18:58:54 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit). 18:59:15 -!- alise has joined. 18:59:50 Well, Windows can decode a "900p" Blu-Ray rip and have it almost synched up with the audio. 19:00:00 I conclude that Linux audio still suuuuuuuuuuucks shiiiiiit 19:00:16 I can only conclude that good God Ubuntu sucks at audio. 19:00:35 I use the *default settings* for ALSA and it just plain works. 19:00:35 On a more positive note, thx coppro for making me decide to, uh, obtain Stargate Universe. 19:00:46 If Air pts. 1 and 2 are anything to go by it's gonna be good. 19:01:29 Unfortunately the Blu-Ray rip only has up to episode 10; apparently the season was released in two halves, both the price of a regular season (!) on Blu-Ray. So that sucks; I can't find the second half in such quality. 19:02:01 -!- calamari has joined. 19:02:48 alise: SyFy tends to air seasons in two parts. 19:02:59 The second part of the season only finished a few weeks ago. 19:02:59 Mm. 19:03:25 Oh, so that thing I saw on Sky marked as the "finale" was actually the finale of the first half? Interesting. 19:03:34 The two releases are marked "1.0" and "1.5", which is a bit strange, but there you go. 19:03:50 Alright then; now if only the 1080p 37" TV was in /here/. And I had a machine that can decode it with _perfect_ AV sync. 19:03:55 Yup, that's a very SCI-FI CHANNEL (not "SyFy" bleh) thing to do. 19:04:06 I pronounce Syfy as "Siffy" to protest the rename. 19:04:18 Love it. 19:04:19 "...new, to Sci-Fi." "You mean 'Siffy'." 19:04:44 Or "siffih". So it's awkward to pronounce. 19:04:48 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:05:51 pikhq: Apparently "1.5" was released in July. 19:05:54 So... 19:06:00 A few few weeks ago. 19:06:29 Should be able to find HD TV dumps; not a Blu-Ray rip yet. 19:06:39 In Blu-Ray "Region B" (??) the full-season Blu-Ray came out in July too. Region A has to wait until 2011, but they got 1.0 and 1.5, while region B didn't. 19:07:05 My anal file-naming scheme has come under attack by the evil creators of Stargate Universe. 19:07:05 hm, where is oerjan when you need him 19:07:21 "1.11.2 ???.mkv" (Yes, that is an en-dash.) 19:07:35 It's two separate episodes, "Air (Part 1)" and "Air (Part 2)", but aired as one continuous one. 19:07:40 Usually, I would just title it "Air". 19:07:48 But there's a part 3 which was aired /after/ these. 19:07:53 alise, yeah, for me the plain alsa with no pulseaudio just works. Even on computers with stuff like Intel HDA instead of my sb live card 19:08:02 pulseaudio is what causes issues IME 19:08:03 AnMaster: ALSA had the AV sync problems just as badly. 19:08:12 I'm going to try OSSv4, then hang myself. 19:08:24 alise, that I never had... Weird latency issues I guess 19:08:41 btw, I ate some fun food today. 19:09:18 hissing cockroaches? 19:09:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punsch-roll <-- this very Swedish pastry is as noted in the article called "vacuum cleaner" here. Well, they had an extra long version at a café I visited today... Guess what they called it? 19:09:35 "Fun"; that is some definition of fun, "hissing cockroaches". 19:09:45 AnMaster: Black hole? 19:09:47 central vacuum cleaner 19:09:53 http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/central_vacuum_cleaner.jpg 19:09:57 took that with phone camera 19:10:00 alise: Clearly Ubuntu managed to fucking break ALSA. 19:10:04 AnMaster: That's not... hilarious. 19:10:07 yes doggy bag next to it. It was a bit too large. 19:10:14 alise, I said fun, not hilarious 19:10:23 pikhq: You know, I don't think the _entire_ blame lies on Ubuntu's shoulders. 19:10:30 alise, plus, Swedish humour. It exists but is incompatible with you. 19:10:37 They may be slightly incompetent, but you gotta admit, Linux audio isn't known to be very worky. 19:10:49 yeah 19:10:58 alise: Here's the thing: *I have yet to have issues with Linux audio*. 19:11:06 like getting pulseaudio and timidity to work together 19:11:18 alise: I only ever had problems when pulse came out 19:11:19 coppro: Here, YOU'RE the Stargate expert (Sgeo doesn't count), YOU name my file. (This is the most important thing.) 19:11:24 pikhq: Good hardware. Good luck. 19:11:25 On Linux 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6. OSS, pre-in-kernel ALSA, 2.6 ALSA. 19:11:27 anyway, I can strongly recommend that café for anyone in Sweden that happens to pass by the town of Vara (located along E20 between Göteborg and Stockholm). 19:11:36 And I've used it on a *lot* of hardware. 19:11:41 anot sure what was so wrong with oss or alsa 19:11:50 calamari: nothing at all. 19:11:53 Well, plenty. 19:11:56 alise: call that one Vacuum and the other one Air :P 19:11:59 Just nothing that could be fixed with a new sound server above them. 19:11:59 I just haven't used any of the freaking bizarre audio abstraction layers... 19:12:09 coppro: wat xD 19:12:14 Well, unless you count arts, which KDE 3 demanded. 19:12:23 alise: the first parts are more about a lack of air :P 19:12:25 I think I'll go with "1.11.2 Air (Parts 1 & 2)", but I'll FEEL BAD ABOUT IT. 19:12:43 coppro: Gee, just go and spoil it; I was expecting them to suffocate and the rest of the series just to be footage of dead people. 19:13:01 Or colonise the planet and live peacefully with a few minor incidents, as they try to come to terms with their loneliness. 19:13:19 SGU actually has significant attrition :) 19:13:55 Remind me not to talk to you about anything I haven't finished watching/reading/etc. yet. :) 19:14:01 SPOILERS: Destiny's destination is an alternate earth, where they will pick up more people and then leave again 19:14:14 Please tell me you /are/ joking. 19:14:19 alise: Here's the thing: *I have yet to have issues with Linux audio*. <-- the only issues I had so far has been with pulseaudio or jack. The latter is mostly my own fault for even trying to use that. Of course it works very well once it's set up. But the problem is that, setting it up. 19:14:30 alise: maybe 19:14:37 with pulseaudio.... well I wouldn't know where to start with describing the problems 19:14:39 coppro: I hate you, because now I have to look it up. 19:14:44 alise: rofl 19:14:50 I was kidding 19:14:57 That's from a book 19:14:58 coppro: Hyperventilation over! 19:15:03 (not a SG book) 19:15:15 Adding abstraction servers to Linux audio is an absolutely retarded idea. 19:15:19 Why do people love doing it? 19:15:40 because they can't think of any other ideas that sound so good but are really so bad 19:15:53 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:15:54 \expandafter\forth\input 19:15:56 can't work 19:16:22 Would it kill them to just make the audio interface *work well*? 19:16:28 pikhq, yeah... 19:16:49 Elaborate justification for "1.11.2 Air (Parts 1 & 2)": En-dash to separate range is the Right Way to do things; series number must be included since it sometimes differs e.g. Voyager's "Unimatrix Zero"; the episodes are billed (Part N) for N in 1,2,3; there are two parts, and we should not insert "and" because it is more metasyntactic punctuation than actually part of the title. 19:16:50 pikhq, just use dmix in case of lack of hardware mixing (which is the case for most hardware these days) 19:17:01 Just use OSSv4. 19:17:10 Oh snap, no, that would actually *work!* 19:17:22 Even ALSA, which *is* the audio interface for most Linux systems, has trouble with this... 19:17:25 zzo38: You're really writing ForthTeX? 19:17:36 pikhq: Tried OSSv4? You'll like it. 19:17:38 Why the HELL should you need a user library to just make the freaking audio interface work at all? 19:17:39 Did I mention OSSv4? 19:17:41 alise, well, it's more work, and it would probably not work out of box, unless it provides alsa compatible APIs 19:17:49 AnMaster: It does. 19:17:53 AnMaster: There's nothing that does not support OSS. 19:17:55 ah well. Still more work 19:18:00 AnMaster: In fact, you can also make libalsa /output to OSS/. 19:18:03 pikhq, alsamixer? (sorry, bad joke) 19:18:11 AnMaster: Seriously. That's 100% compatibility. 19:18:14 Because OSS is the audio interface on all *other* UNIX systems. 19:18:18 hm 19:18:19 Or you can use the slightly-worse OSSv4 fake libalsa. 19:18:22 alise: No, I am not writing ForthTeX. It is just something I thought about while sleeping yesterday 19:18:25 (excepting OS X) 19:18:35 alise, anyway, for me as it happens, alsa actually works well. Both on desktop and laptop 19:18:37 alise: Tempting, but ALSA "just works" here. 19:18:47 no clue why, it's just the way it is 19:18:48 pikhq: Dude, you use Gentoo. You _have_ to break things on a regular basis. 19:18:54 Just do it. 19:18:56 :D 19:19:05 alise: Things don't break here. 19:19:08 :P 19:19:26 (okay, actually, I manage to break X every now and then.) 19:19:55 indeed, things didn't break on Gentoo. I think I had to report way more bugs under ubuntu so far than on gentoo. And I used gentoo for like 5-6 years. Ubuntu for about one 19:20:01 zzo38: Perhaps instead of {...} pushing a "formatting stack", it could instead push a code block/quotation a la Joy. Then \sf would mean "sans-serif for the rest of the 'program'", where "program" is like a scope; i.e. it'd end after you finish executing the {...}. 19:20:13 Although perhaps the pushing-a-formatting-stack would be a saner idea. 19:20:16 arch I think is lowest but I used that less on non-servers than either of the other 19:20:21 Not that ForthTeX is a sane idea in the first place. 19:20:23 But this might work: \forth ' [TEX] ASSIGN-GULLET unforth [TEX] \def\inputforth#1{\forth\input #1 \unforth} 19:20:26 so hard to tell 19:20:31 (But I don't know about this way either) 19:20:33 only like half a year on main desktop 19:20:44 zzo38: That's the boring way, though. It should be a Forth integrated into the TeX, not TeX with Forth support. 19:20:46 Somehow, Gentoo is a reasonably stable system. Something that appears to have a bleeding-edge philosophy. 19:20:54 Yes, of course it is not sane idea..... 19:21:05 alise, so yeah, gentoo's issue is actually the compile time. It _breaks_ less than other distros IME 19:21:15 AnMaster: It's Gentoo's /users/ that break it. 19:21:22 alise, yes some. I agree 19:21:37 But..... 19:21:41 WE ARE INSANITY!!!!!! 19:21:50 alise, like those with insane CFLAGS. But well... I only know one such user, and he started using sane cflags later on 19:21:56 zzo38: You could use {...} as strings that way, too. 19:21:58 Like 19:22:04 {sansserif} \fontname 19:22:06 Or something. 19:22:48 would forthtex be like luatex? Or would it use a separate syntax? Or is it something like literal forth programming? 19:23:01 I don't think such things can work unless it is entirely remade such that it is not TeX anymore 19:23:06 ForthTeX wouldn't really be TeX at all. 19:23:09 ah 19:23:14 But using \forth to switch works better in my opinion 19:23:19 In my view, "\foo" would be execute-Forth-word-foo. 19:23:26 Normal words would just be "text" typeset. 19:23:31 well, there is an issue there. If you don't pass some test suite, iirc Knuth gets angry about you using the name TeX 19:23:34 { would push a new "formatting stack" 19:23:50 so \sf would say, change the font to sans-serif 19:23:51 on the top formatting stack 19:23:52 not sure if it is a registered trademark or such, if it is, you would need to follow it 19:23:54 } would pop it 19:23:55 AnMaster: Yes, exactly, and it is also something I agree with as well, even if Knuth doesn't get angry 19:24:01 AnMaster: It's just a codename :P 19:24:08 It was more like TeX when I thought of it... 19:24:08 alise, ah right 19:24:20 \def \ForthTeX {\sf FORTH}\TeX \end 19:24:32 So \def would read a word, and get \ForthTeX back. 19:24:37 Start defining just like Forth... 19:24:57 Yes, that is like Forth, but then it wouldn't be TeX 19:24:58 Then we have the \pushfmt instruction, the \sf instruction, the "FORTH" text, the \popfmt instruction, the \TeX instruction, and we stop. 19:25:16 The "FORTH" text would be handled like numbers in Forth; "TEXT" instruction followed by the text, just like "2" -> "LITERAL 2" or whatever. 19:25:21 zzo38: Fine; FORTHSeT. 19:25:24 ForthSeT. 19:26:04 You could have a command ending with {, actually. 19:26:14 \def \boldblock {\bf \end 19:26:16 Then 19:26:20 \boldblock LOL BOLD} 19:26:28 Since { and } would just be sugar for \pushfmt and \popfmt... 19:27:59 My idea using \forth to switch, it has something like LuaTeX, but not quite, because TeX doesn't even see your Forth program, it is just switched, instead of using TeX's eyes/mouth/body you use the Forth and then it go back after, so you would define a Forth code in outer usually, and integrate it using ASSIGN-GULLET and so on 19:28:20 As well possibly as other commands such as TEX-PARSE TEX-SEND-TOKEN and so on 19:28:56 alise: Yes your way, can be called ForthSeT, it might work 19:31:58 But I never modified TeX (although I have read parts of the TeX source codes to clarify things), I wrote PipeTeX, which should be workable using any version of TeX, without having to modify each one. 19:32:25 Someone recommend me a Linux distro to toy around with that isn't Gentoo or Arch. 19:32:33 Ubuntu has officially reached my Ultimately Annoyed state. 19:32:37 (The logo for PipeTeX isn't as complicated as things like LaTeX and AMS-TeX and so on, just {Pipe\TeX}) 19:32:46 alise: Linux-From-Scratch 19:32:58 zzo38: No. :P 19:33:05 alise: Linux-From-UnScratch 19:33:09 xD 19:33:16 {\sf FORTH}\TeX: the only logo that matters! 19:37:20 Does such a thing as Linux-From-Unscratch exist? 19:37:31 No. 19:39:41 Some people say that literate programming forces you to document your program and therefore write a better code, but that isn't true at all. What it does do, however, is it makes it much easier to document your code! 19:40:22 // assign 4 to i 19:40:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:41:13 antidippenders; 19:41:23 hm, where is oerjan when you need him 19:41:42 oerjan, oh yeah. Interesting turn of events in IWC eh? 19:42:20 oerjan, it raises a lot of questions though 19:42:35 coppro: Not like that, though. Not like typing "// assign 4 to i", that is clear by the printout might be something like "i <-- 4" you can already see it assigns 4 to i 19:42:55 I was being sarcastic 19:42:56 maybe 19:42:57 like why the heck has shakespeare not given any indication of being from the past before 19:45:10 also i'm not sure i _like_ this idea of explaining things "rationally" this way, it takes away the mystery. in fact that was one of the things i didn't like about the end of the Ed stories 19:46:15 Yes, but... that's because you're you. No offence. 19:46:16 AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100805_001-009.jpg http://zem.fi/~fis/20100806_001-007.jpg 19:46:38 The word for a random, unexplained thread that holds the whole story together without any apparent justification is a "plot hole". 19:46:50 (it became serious and logical rather than crazy and whimsical) 19:47:02 fizzie, okay, on hotel wlan. Will take ages to load 19:47:05 oerjan: erm 19:47:11 it became that since Be Here Now 19:47:17 would take some pics through the window, except it is fairly boring 19:47:20 -!- tombom has joined. 19:47:22 now which one was that 19:47:24 not any grand view 19:47:28 oerjan: the /first long story/ 19:47:34 alise: Slack 19:47:38 if it wasn't serious by Be Here Now, it definitely was by Spacd 19:47:43 fizzie, wait, is that like .fi dreamhack or such? 19:47:49 AnMaster: There are _small.jpg variants, but... 19:47:50 alise: thank you for an answer that gives my memory absolutely nothing to remember it by 19:48:07 oerjan: Be Here Now -- time travelling, Kerrig mountain facility 19:48:08 But a literate programming system contains features that can be useful regardless of the amount of documentation you are including, such as the index and table of contents, and code chunks..... 19:48:19 Spacd -- whoops Epsilon Eridriani doesn't exist 19:48:21 AnMaster: I don't remember what DreamHack is; gaming or demoscene? 19:48:27 *Eridani 19:48:36 fizzie, gaming iirc 19:49:03 AnMaster: Well, this used to be a demoscene event. Nowadays it's a hybrid sort of thing. 19:49:24 fizzie, ah 19:49:37 oh well, anyhow i liked the whimsical ones best 19:49:41 In the PipeTeX codes, I don't think I need to document every section, some should be self-explanatory, and I don't need to document it as m much as some people do, but there is still some missing, which I can add in the next version 19:49:55 oerjan: ok, so let's say Spacd, since Be Here Now isn't that serious. it's lighthearted, but not the same sort of jokey story that the short stories are at the start, when setting the stage in the first two paragraphs. after that, it's serious (the raretl ivehf) 19:50:16 alise: Y'know what else would be nice? A short story collection containing of qntm.org 19:50:21 the opening stories haven't got much substance really and are really stage-setters 19:50:25 *really just stage-setters 19:50:32 Be Here Now is short compared to the others 19:50:46 so really, the Ed stories are serious for a majority of their length 19:51:06 pikhq: Eh wot? 19:51:17 Also, I can't use Slack. Actually I'm not sure what I can use: I need a recent kernel to support my Ethernet. 19:51:25 alise: All the short stories on qntm that aren't part of a story. 19:51:27 The last Ubuntu didn't support the card. 19:51:29 pikhq: In what? 19:51:34 alise: Then upgrade the kernel. 19:51:41 Typeset as a single volume? 19:51:43 zzo38: Can't do that without internet. 19:51:45 pikhq: Ah. 19:51:49 pikhq: I'd like to finish the Ed stories, first. 19:52:00 alise: Can't you do it with a DVD, or something like that? 19:52:04 pikhq: And that includes Free, Standing as an epilogue. 19:52:08 zzo38: No optical drive. 19:52:14 fizzie, okay, took some (free hand) pics 19:52:16 pikhq: The next Sam Hughes thing I'm likely to typeset is Fine Structure, but I'll have to read it first. 19:52:18 alise: Can you use USB? 19:52:26 zzo38: Yes. But at that point I get too bored. 19:52:26 fizzie, I'll see if I can do anything usable with it 19:52:37 fizzie, btw those images were not panos right? 19:52:38 05:18:04 you're only allowed to use alise's haskell on pro-GNOME operating systems. 19:52:38 what? 19:52:38 ok then but something changed in tone when the andromedans got introduced. 19:52:39 O, that's why. 19:52:42 oh wait 19:52:43 they were 19:53:00 fizzie, the dark one looks much more like fish eye 19:53:30 alise: Mmm. 19:53:33 oerjan: that's hardly the ending though. anyway what would you have preferred, he having destroyed Andromeda and nothing coming of it? what would be the point of that having happened, then? 19:53:42 AnMaster: 9 and 7 pics; taken with the phone, can't really switch lenses on that one. (Well, maybe with some sort of adapter.) 19:53:51 fizzie, rightr 19:53:53 right* 19:53:59 fizzie, this is going to be my real camera 19:54:05 I'll transfer it in a few seconds 19:54:19 and see if I can make a pano out of it 19:54:22 alise: Perhaps Tyro? 19:54:47 AnMaster: I'm here with the N900 (64k compo is about to start in 7 minutes), so I won't probably even try to look at any large images before I get out. 19:54:59 pikhq: I started reading Tyro and concluded Sam was right, it's crap writing. 19:55:21 fizzie, I'll scale them down. I'm on bad wlan 19:55:21 I quite like the concept. But yeah, Sam has definitely improved. 19:55:37 pikhq: The Fourth-And-A-Halfth Planet I would do something with if I understood it one damn bit. 19:55:38 Bit Rate=24 Mb/s Tx-Power=15 dBm 19:55:41 Link Quality=38/70 Signal level=-72 dBm 19:55:43 see? 19:55:48 In other news, huge amount (over 15) of 4k entries this year here. 19:55:56 Oh God I love that one. 19:56:15 AnMaster: WLAN here is so bad, I'm just using this 384k 3G. 19:56:36 fizzie, doesn't the n900 supports more than that? 19:56:54 fizzie, besides all those computers down the stairs look like they use ethernet 19:57:15 Yes, but I'd need to pay more for using more than that. :p 19:57:24 08:39:21 I'm trying to read the source for Epigram (literate Haskell). I should probably stop because I don't know enough about type theory to tell when they're joking or not. 19:57:24 That's just Conor. 19:57:31 Sit back and enjoy the ride; not even he knows. 19:57:34 fizzie, sucks thern 19:57:35 then* 19:57:45 fizzie, this wlan is free when you have a hotel room 19:57:46 http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf, for anyone who wants to gawp. 19:58:11 AnMaster: The wlan here is free, but it's too sucky to use. 19:58:18 considering user/pw I very much doubt they could prevent someone over the street from using it... 19:58:25 and auth over http 19:58:46 AnMaster: I just meant that 3G speeds >384k would mean a more costly mobile subscription thing. 19:59:37 fizzie, anyway it will be below my usual standard... ISO400 19:59:44 I usually use ISO64... 20:00:16 09:47:25 and I noticed yesterday that it didn't like "movie" 20:00:16 in en-GB it is "film". 20:00:18 Everyone with a computer place (and the associated ethernet switch port) is supposed to be using it, but there's still overcrowding, and I guess they just don't pay that much attention to the wlan. 20:00:24 "movie" is en-usism 20:01:09 09:52:00 Fine, DOCTOR WHO. Anyway, I've noticed that happens a lot -- you learn a word, then suddenly hear it used. It's probably some kind of psychological trick, like, you heard the word before, but you didn't know what it meant, so you didn't retain the memory the same way. 20:01:09 baader-meinhof 20:01:10 alise, hm, most UK people I know use movie too 20:01:15 AnMaster: indeed. 20:01:16 at least on IRC 20:01:31 AnMaster: they probably say "gonna" at least occasionally IRL too. 20:01:37 it's called osmosis 20:01:57 alise, but I strongly suspect this dict is based on something like a too-old-to-be-copyrighted word list + some new stuff added in. 20:02:18 considering other cases 20:02:28 which I noticed before but I can't recall right atm 20:03:30 AnMaster: Factual data cannot be copyrighted, though a specific presentation can be. 20:04:11 pikhq: compilation copyright? 20:04:16 pikhq, true 20:04:20 well 20:04:25 at least somewhere 20:04:28 who knows 20:05:17 10:39:00 I can't eat kittens‽ Even ones that aren't my pet? 20:05:17 XD 20:05:40 10:56:51 Well, now my kitten has died of terminal stupidity. 20:06:06 Eating kittens is just plain wrong! And no one should do it! EVER! 20:06:53 http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lex5sz.jpg 20:06:57 * oerjan continues the tradition of quoting quotes without having seen the original 20:10:15 pikhq: How good is Slack's driver support? 20:12:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:14:14 pikhq: >_> 20:14:44 Does FreeBSD have a livecd these days? 20:15:20 -!- RoxFox64 has joined. 20:15:31 Heh, sweet 20:15:34 alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=freebsd+livecd 20:15:38 (kidding) :) 20:15:49 Anyone here still using befunge? 20:16:05 fungot: Yo. 20:16:06 pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" 20:16:34 `addquote pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" 20:16:35 alise: he was lounging in a chair surrounded by scrolls and scraps of paper. it had worked. he'd always been aware of it? 20:16:40 RoxFox64: Yes. 20:16:46 "it was fragrant with the scent of abomination."; new favourite quote. 20:16:50 ^style 20:16:51 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 20:17:07 207| pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" 20:17:58 btw, is it possible to have a remote swap file, or does linux prevent it? 20:18:13 calamari: well, it's a swap partition. so, yes, like this: 20:18:21 use NFS to mount the remote host. 20:18:28 have a "foo" file on it. 20:18:32 mount -t swap -o loop foo 20:18:35 or however you mount swap these days 20:18:40 alise: Sweet. I managed to find small(But, old) interpreter that turns befunge to c. Then I made a script for linux, and a batch for windows to compile it, run it and dispose of it. 20:18:51 RoxFox64: It doesn't turn Befunge into C. 20:18:57 It bundles Befunge code with an interpreter. 20:19:34 alise: thanks I was trying to use mkswap and swapon.. maybe mount -t swap is what I needed 20:20:07 alise: I haven't bothered to look through the source fully. I just know it generates a c source. 20:20:27 I just wish I were more creative 20:20:44 I'd be able to make some complex stuff 20:20:59 calamari: I don't think mount -t swap actually works. 20:21:05 [["We caused that asteroid belt, four and a half billion years ago," said James. "It was going to condense into a planet called Earth, which was going to become our home planet when we eventually evolved on it. But we went back in time and blew it up." 20:21:06 Chay nodded sagely. "Why?"]] 20:21:07 Heck, I'd use Befunge for something like ASCII if I were 20:22:13 Eh? 20:22:53 pikhq: How long does a Gentoo install last these days/ 20:22:54 *days? 20:22:57 RoxFox64: "something like ascii"? 20:23:56 Sorry, ASCII art 20:24:06 Thats really what I meant 20:24:15 Right 20:24:33 ansi art is more fun :) 20:24:41 * RoxFox64 should make a befunge IDE of sorts 20:25:23 I love Smalltalk, but I absolutely despise smalltalk.org 20:25:27 Only thing I'd really have to do is make a text editor that forced insert mode on a row of spaces though. 20:26:07 fizzie, stitching atm.. 20:26:35 alise: Day or two? 20:26:46 pikhq: I thought the compile-everything installs were deprecated. 20:26:50 ah... auto exposure... how could I forget. Well too dark outside now to correct this 20:27:14 Sgeo: I've never heard of smalltalk.org. Ignore it. 20:27:17 alise: This is counting a complex desktop environment such as KDE or Gnome. 20:27:20 AnMaster: How long is a Gentoo install! 20:27:21 pikhq: Ah. 20:27:26 alise: It's quite a bit less time if you have lesser needs. 20:27:40 Ah fuck it, why does stuff suck so much. 20:27:48 >_> 20:27:51 Perhaps an hour or two for one's initial install getting to a base, bootable system. 20:27:54 Blah blah whine moan. 20:28:00 pikhq: Okay. So how is Slack's driver support? 20:28:08 AnMaster: How long is a Gentoo install! <-- on what system? 20:28:09 alise: Should be "reasonable". 20:28:11 alsie, sorry, the matrix has you 20:28:33 In a way it's a ironicly funny and twisted sorry state that those that promote the "safety of typed systems" and "additional capabilities of typed systems" also are promoting the "barren space devoid of the richness of runtime meta data". 20:28:36 It won't have proprietary drivers by default but it should have pretty much of Linux's supported drivers. 20:28:37 alise, are we talking about a dual-cpu system consisting of quad core xeon i7? 20:28:40 ^^from that site, not from me 20:28:42 or about a pentium2? 20:29:03 Are they utterly unaware that many statically typed languages (including C#) have metadata? 20:29:44 Sgeo: Non-static polymorphism kinda requires it. 20:29:50 pikhq: Ubuntu's last release lacked my Ethernet driver. The current one has it. 20:29:52 Does Slack have it? 20:29:59 alise: Maybe? 20:30:03 (where "static polymorphism" is C++ templates) 20:30:06 AnMaster: It's fast enough. 20:30:13 pikhq: XD 20:30:20 pikhq: It's ... Archos, I think. 20:33:36 The issue with the "spartan" distros is that I assemble the "perfect environment" then it ends up irritating me for no apparent reason. I don't know why. I'm strange. 20:34:55 here is a reduced size version: http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/hotel_window_small.jpg 20:36:01 just 5.2 MB 20:36:14 the tif is 48MB 20:36:21 pikhq: Diagnose me. :P 20:37:11 alise: You must write an OS. 20:37:39 His own OS will end up irritating him! 20:37:48 write an os where everything is a dependency 20:38:07 Far worse than the "perfect environment", imagine the scale of a "perfect os"'s irrittation 20:38:13 Why is my a key broken? 20:38:26 pikhq: That isn't a diagnosis. 20:39:04 alise: No, it's a prescription. 20:39:12 pikhq: For what illness? 20:39:27 alise: NIH Syndrome. 20:39:36 :D 20:39:45 pikhq: I know I have /that/; what's /this/ illness? 20:39:49 Also, how much does KDE4 suck? 20:40:21 alise: well it made me go back to gnome, does tha help? lol 20:40:32 alise, actually this current one is exactly NIH 20:40:58 fizzie, full size at http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/hotel_window.jpg 20:41:29 calamari: yeah but that's /gnome/ 20:41:42 AnMaster: did you use a program to stitch that? 20:42:07 calamari, no, I looked at the tif images then wrote a new one in a hex editor 20:42:08 :P 20:42:14 calamari, of course I used one. 20:42:17 AnMaster: which one? 20:42:22 hugin, same as fizzie used for his picture above 20:42:41 calamari, that is http://zem.fi/~fis/20100805_001-009.jpg 20:42:49 and http://zem.fi/~fis/20100806_001-007.jpg 20:43:20 AnMaster: Even the reduced-size version isn't very phone-friendly; but I guess it's okay for this half-a-gig-of-RAM iBook. 20:43:31 fizzie, hm okay 20:43:46 fizzie, I'm on my 4GB of RAM thinkpad atm 20:43:53 okay I guess I'll ask fizzie when he gets back 20:44:10 calamari, he is back 20:44:11 I used to have 1.25G of RAM in this, but I donated a gigabyte away. 20:44:12 oh he's back.. 20:44:16 * RoxFox64 will return 20:44:23 fizzie, 1.25 - 1 = 0.5 ? 20:44:25 since when? 20:44:27 Okay, someone name something other than Arch in a few minutes, or the kitty gets it. 20:44:35 fizzie: what stitching program are you using? 20:44:46 AnMaster: I got a .25 back for the 1 I gave away. 20:44:50 calamari: The same as AnMaster. :p 20:44:53 calamari, anyway I told you the app above. hugin 20:44:54 calamari: (That is, Hugin.) 20:45:18 -!- RoxFox64 has left (?). 20:45:25 okay thanks 20:45:35 calamari, it was right at the start of this line: hugin, same as fizzie used for his picture above 20:45:39 so um, why ask fizzie? 20:45:46 yeah I thought that was some kind of insult 20:45:52 calamari, huh? 20:45:59 calamari: "You're such a hugin!" 20:46:04 :D 20:46:04 you were being weird so I figured you didn't want to tell me lol 20:46:15 The kitty is about to get it. 20:46:29 calamari, no, I just thought it was obvious you can't do that without a program 20:46:37 I mean, you need to do lots of corrections 20:46:49 AnMaster: I've done it with the gimp 20:47:00 If you have a real, calibrated panorama-head, you can sort-of do it with just regular image-processing tools. 20:47:09 calamari, I mean, I get a horrible stitch if I don't optimise the various lens distortion parameters 20:47:20 * alise shoots the kitty 20:47:21 but then that is taken at most zoomed out setting 20:47:24 You're all responsible for a feline's death. 20:47:29 which is quite wide angle 20:47:40 calamari, anyway with gimp you will likely get a very bad match 20:47:54 JFS! JFS roolz, other filesystems droolz. 20:47:56 yeah my results weren't very good 20:48:15 that's why I was either going to be very impressed or want to know what program you used.. anyhow.. lol 20:48:20 Also, there were only 6 64k entries; it tends to oscillate. 20:49:05 Every other year there's a whole bunch of great 64k's and very few 4k's; and then the opposite for the next year. 20:49:29 I'm a doctor, and I killed a kitten! 20:49:39 fizzie, how strange 20:49:43 fizzie, any known reason for it? 20:50:22 You are all completely oblivious to my afriddiliminosik. 20:50:30 Possibly it's because people think "oh, there were so few Xk entries this year, maybe I'll write one for the next year, since it'll be easier to win". 20:50:59 fizzie, so the best strategy would be to go for the other one? 20:51:01 as in 20:51:07 the one with many entries last year 20:51:23 Possibly, though it's by no means an exact rule, just a tendency. 20:51:27 right so definitely go for 4k next year 20:51:32 anyone know my postcode? i need it 20:51:37 fizzie, still 20:52:05 Also it seems that doing oldskool entries is reasonably safe, since the amount of those has been declining for the last few years; this time there were only 4 oldskool demo entries. 20:53:19 the nice thing with 4k demos is that there are only so many ones that exist; you can rule out all of the ones that already exist, since you won't want to copy them 20:53:31 meaning that you have a pretty good chance to hit on a good demo vs a bad one, vs a bigger file size! 20:53:35 [[UBER LOGIK]] 20:53:42 fizzie, why not make a 4k one and then submit it to both, but pad it with 60k for the 64k one? 20:54:17 Generally you'd need to have a bit more content in a 64k entry. But you could possibly do a 4k, and then an "extended edition" 64k. 20:54:36 hm yeah that sounds like a good idea 20:55:10 Damn UNetbootin, you crazy. 20:55:35 It's a bit gaming-the-rules thing; I'm not sure if they have anything explicitly against it, though. And it *is* common to do stuff like using the same C64 picture both as an entry in the graphics compo and as a part of a C64 demo. 20:56:12 alise, UNetbootin being= 20:56:14 s/=/?/ 20:56:23 AnMaster: a thing 20:56:36 how helpful 20:56:36 it can do crazy things. 20:56:53 like boot a Linux live CD and install it when all you have is a drive running windows, no optical or USB drives 20:58:16 ah, not that hard assuming you can fit the cd image in memory 20:58:38 (assuming you want to over-write windows) 20:59:10 AnMaster: not about memory 20:59:16 alise, ? 20:59:18 it unpacks a bootloader plus the squashfs file into C:\ 20:59:25 eh 20:59:26 adds a bootloader option into Windows' bootloader 20:59:33 that boots the bootloader from C:\ 20:59:36 which then boots the squashfs 20:59:42 which then sees itself /and/ the windows partition 20:59:49 alise, my solution would be to put ntfs-3g or such on the initramfs and then loop mount the iso 20:59:52 admittedly, you need a spare partition to install 20:59:56 and them copy that to tmpfs 21:00:02 AnMaster: how would you boot it in the first place? 21:00:03 then* 21:00:08 alise: So, it's exploiting how live CDs work. Nice. 21:00:41 alise, little known fact: bootloader of windows nt/xp and presumably later versions can chainload grub 21:00:49 if you put grub in a file on the ntfs partition 21:00:59 AnMaster: yeah, um, that's what unetbootin does 21:01:01 iirc you copy the mbr (perhaps some more) 21:01:06 except with syslinux i think iirc 21:01:08 since it's ntfs... 21:01:14 alise, okay that works too, but I done it with grub 21:01:15 don't recall 21:01:36 I've only done it with LILO; grub's some sort of newfangled nonsense! 21:01:47 yeah right 21:03:20 anyway, with tmpfs and then unmounting the iso and the ntfs-3g fs you could easily resize the windows partition from there, or even overwrite it. Of course... if something goes wrong, or you lose power... you are not going to like it 21:03:29 Now booting into Arch to see if it supports my Ethernet. 21:03:33 -!- alise has quit. 21:04:26 I never heard of that being an issue... wlan yes 21:04:51 but not ethernet 21:05:05 If it's something very new, there might be a bit of a lag for the supporting. 21:05:38 Or even just a new variant that switches PCI ids or some-such to make it not autodetektize correctly. 21:05:52 (That sort of stuff gets fixed real fast, of course.) 21:07:01 true 21:18:10 "Smalltalk is based on the idea, that if you both want to define @, then you probably are defining it with the same semantics :)" 21:19:05 Sgeo, you mean duck typing? 21:19:21 well, that is the effect of that 21:24:36 My objection (not as related to duck typing as AnMaster thinks) may be ended 21:24:52 Sgeo, hm? 21:25:18 Sgeo, if it was your objection, why did you quote it? 21:25:48 My problem wasn't that MyClass and YourClass might both define #something, it was that both my project and your project might define Object>>something 21:25:57 AnMaster, I was quoting someone's response 21:26:10 ah 21:26:31 hm I can't say I know smalltalk. What does >> do? 21:27:27 It doesn't do anything, it's just a convention to say, in the case of Object>>something, Object defines a method something 21:28:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:28:37 hm 21:28:38 ais523, hi 21:30:27 hi AnMaster 21:32:34 aBag = Bag new. aBag add: ais523. 21:32:40 * AnMaster curses the hotel wlan 21:32:47 oops 21:32:50 Sgeo: SmallTalk? 21:32:51 aBag := Bag new. aBag add: ais523. 21:32:54 Bit Rate=5.5 Mb/s 21:32:55 Yes 21:32:59 ... 21:33:01 The second one, not the first 21:33:02 also, why are you trying to add me to a new bag? 21:33:17 Why not? >:D 21:33:47 random fact: Feather's syntax is designed to resemble SmallTalk's as much as possible whilst meaning something completely different 21:34:09 ha 21:35:35 ais523, okay now post the details on that 21:35:54 I haven't worked them out yet 21:35:57 ais523, or is this just a joke at our expense? A DNF of esolangs 21:36:07 DNF is actually a good comparison 21:36:16 because it was being worked on right until the point where it was cancelled, apparently 21:36:36 ais523, well, feather isn't cancelled is it? 21:36:41 exactly 21:37:20 it may have been cancelled already in the future 21:38:04 XD 21:38:39 -!- alise has joined. 21:38:48 I was going to say something-- 21:38:50 oh yeah 21:38:57 Linux really doesn't need swap if I have 4 GiB of RAM, right? 21:39:04 Or, if it does: why, and how much? 21:39:09 Hi ais523. 21:39:23 aBag add: alise. 21:39:25 hi 21:39:55 Sgeo: I wonder why they didn't call it a Set. 21:40:04 alise, it has sets 21:40:07 Well, at least Sgeo is growing taste in languages. 21:40:18 Bags can contain duplicates 21:40:20 ais523: any opinions on that swap thing? :-P 21:40:20 Linux really doesn't need swap if I have 4 GiB of RAM, right? <-- do you want suspend to disk? 21:40:22 the difference between a bag and a set is that bags contain duplicates 21:40:22 Sgeo: ah. 21:40:26 Sgeo: multiset :P 21:40:32 alise: I don't know much about swapping 21:40:38 AnMaster: Well, not /especially/, but it would be quite nice ... 21:40:42 AnMaster: Can't it use my proper disk? 21:40:44 but AnMaster's correct in that you need swap to be able to hibernate 21:40:46 *nice... 21:40:51 ais523: Okay; firstly, why? secondly, why? 21:40:52 alise, it uses swap for hibernate 21:40:54 because the way it's implemented is by swapping everything out of memory, and then shutting down 21:40:58 Yes. 21:41:03 what is Sgeo working on now 21:41:03 And why can't it just swap out ... to disk? 21:41:06 As in, an existing program? 21:41:09 coppro: he's just learning Smalltalk. 21:41:11 alise, what do you mean, to disk 21:41:15 then when you load again, everything's in swap, and it swaps it out as it reads it 21:41:15 coppro: so the ladies will like him. 21:41:19 AnMaster: to my existing / partition 21:41:22 or whatever 21:41:23 alise, to disk, yes your swap partition on the disk 21:41:26 a specified partition with stuff on it already 21:41:37 alise: presumably it would be a mess, because it would require unswapping everything immediately on boot 21:41:41 or else leaving the file around 21:41:48 But existing OSes do this... 21:41:56 I don't see any huge barriers to the concept, but it would be harder to implement, thus probably hasn't been 21:41:56 Okay, so, what, I should have four freaking gigs of swap?! 21:41:58 alise, well I don't know if hibernate supports swap files, but you can use a file as swap, not really recommended due to slower performance 21:42:03 still it needs to be fixed in size 21:42:18 and it's fine for the swap to be smaller 21:42:24 ais523, anyway, how comes encrypted swap works? 21:42:26 the hibernate just fails if you're using more memory at the time than you have swap 21:42:30 ais523: Beh. 21:42:32 ais523, it does, I used it. 21:42:36 AnMaster: it works just like normal swap, but encrypted.. 21:42:42 Okay, anyone want to check if a swap file can be hibernated to? 21:42:48 Then you'd just do 21:42:52 [initiate swap file] 21:42:53 [hibernate] 21:42:54 ais523, means that the initramfs somehow gets the kernel to load from the right partition? 21:42:56 Then, post-hibernate: 21:42:58 after asking for password 21:43:01 [disable swap file] 21:43:01 to unlock it 21:43:02 [remove swap file] 21:43:05 with cryptsetup-luks 21:43:07 can you hot-disable a swap file? 21:43:15 ais523: Well, "swapoff"... 21:43:16 ais523, you mean swapoff ? 21:43:28 hmm, in that case, incorporating swapoff into the hibernate routine would make sense 21:43:30 (I didn't know it existed) 21:43:32 So /if/ you can hibernate to a swap file, that should work great. The question is, can you? 21:43:41 This is kind of important because JFS sort of sucks at resizing. 21:43:52 By "sort of sucks" I basically mean "it doesn't really support it at all". 21:44:19 alise: http://wiki.debian.org/Hibernation/Hibernate_Without_Swap_Partition might be useful 21:44:22 I have no idea how accurate it is 21:44:25 Arch has initialised my console to full 1366x768 resolution. It's quite bizarre. 21:44:31 ais523: I have even less of a web browser than you right now. 21:44:34 What does it say? 21:44:55 it suggests making a lot of config changes to the way swapping works, and installing a package called "uswsusp" 21:45:00 alise, hm, I found ext4 a reliable work horse. Sure, not the fastest one, or the one having most features, but very very solid. 21:45:22 on a HA linux server I would probably go for ext4 on RAID6 or such 21:45:50 there's also an Ubuntu bug report, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/252143 21:46:01 AnMaster: I didn't ask what filesystem to use. 21:46:03 where they complain about the UI being incapable of realising that hibernation is possible even when it is, in a no-swapfile setup 21:46:12 JFS has the best disaster recovery of any production-ready Linux filesystem, btw. 21:46:12 Arch has initialised my console to full 1366x768 resolution. It's quite bizarre. <-- you mean frame buffer? 21:46:16 (And the quickest recovery.) 21:46:17 how is that bizarre? 21:46:19 AnMaster: I don't know; presumably. 21:46:22 AnMaster: Because it's only a console! 21:46:32 ``I love how fag quotes work properly with the default console fonts.'' 21:46:35 alise, um, almost every distro I used does that 21:46:37 No output. 21:46:41 well, modern ones 21:46:53 apparently WUBI used to use a hibernate-to-swapfile setup (due to not repartitioning anything) 21:47:02 but it was buggy in some way the bug report doesn't explain 21:47:02 ais523: So, does it work properly? 21:47:04 Is it very slow? 21:47:07 Do I really give a damn? 21:47:34 the implication I get is fast, but buggy in some distros 21:47:42 Right. Buggy I can handle; I'm using Arch. 21:47:45 Buggy, I am absolutely prepared for. 21:47:57 Now, ASIDE from hibernation, will I need swap with 4 GiBs of RAM? 21:48:02 No assuming ridiculous usecases, AnMaster. 21:48:07 alise, ? 21:48:18 anyway, hibernate-to-file should work just fine in theory, even without additional setup 21:48:29 and I suppose we can find out via experiment how it fails in practice 21:48:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:48:43 AnMaster: I thought you would go all ``Well if you're reconfiguring the LHC, you'll need more...'' 21:48:52 alise, well, I don't know what is ridiculous to you. Presumably you don't stitch HDR panoramas. Which makes my thinkpad swap trash 21:48:58 ais523: Then I'll fill the rest of my disk. 21:49:04 AnMaster: 'Deed I don't. 21:49:15 alise, compile ghc or open office? 21:49:22 probably not either 21:49:26 AnMaster: GHC doesn't take much RAM to compile. I don't _want_ OpenOffice. 21:49:31 I compile GHC quite often; distros suck at it. 21:49:39 GHC is slow to compile, yes, but not hoggy. 21:49:44 alise, how? 21:49:44 hm good point 21:49:50 I only have ~120 GiB of free disk, so saving 4 GiB will be nice. 21:49:52 alise: out of interest, do you want any office software (AbiWord or Microsoft Word on WINE or whatever)? 21:49:55 alise, compile llvm at -j42? 21:49:56 or are you happy without it? 21:49:56 No swap partition it is. 21:50:04 that is quite ridiculous though 21:50:07 What's wrong with the version of GHC in Ubuntu's repositories? 21:50:08 ais523: Ouch at the latter. AbiWord is ... acceptable, when I have to use it. 21:50:19 AnMaster: why on earth would you be using more threads than 1.5 times the number of cores you have? 21:50:22 ais523: I generally either jot down stuff in a text file or use LaTeX. Or HTML. 21:50:31 ais523, rounded upwards or downwards? 21:50:32 the only reason you use more threads than the number of cores you have at all is a scheduler bug 21:50:35 ais523: Why on earth would you be using more threads than the number of cores you have? Because you're using a broken scheduler. 21:50:38 ais523: ha! 21:50:44 ais523: BTW, Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler fixes that issue. 21:50:49 optimal performance is -j 21:50:51 AnMaster: I don't know; does it really matter? 21:50:59 ais523, and no reason at all, unless they are somehow network IO bound or such, with latency being the main bottleneck 21:51:16 so if you use NFS over IP over avian carrier I guess it might be reasonable 21:51:17 XD 21:51:22 Hmm. I wonder how easy it is to get BFS on Gentoo. 21:51:27 pikhq, BFS? 21:51:36 Brain Fuck Scheduler. 21:51:46 ah 21:51:59 is -j1 fastest for a single-core with all schedulers? 21:52:00 but hm, I notice no speed up with -j3 compared to -j2 on my thinkpad 21:52:02 I'd guess it would be 21:52:02 Oh, awesome. 21:52:10 "No separate /boot partition! No swap partition defined!" Arch, you complain so. 21:52:12 Use ck-sources instead of gentoo-sources 21:52:15 -j2 compared to -j1 on my single core sempron 3300+ though... 21:52:22 Adds Con Kolivas's patchset to the Gentoo patchset. 21:52:29 pikhq: You might want to look at the Zen kernel too. 21:52:31 * pikhq shall do that after this torrent finishes 21:52:33 pikhq: It adds TuxOnIce, BFS, etc. 21:52:33 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 21:52:37 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:52:38 pikhq: Maybe just ck is fine though. 21:52:44 alise: Mmm, zen-sources may be nice. 21:52:48 hmm, using an unusually high -j value would be nice if the make was X-bound for a huge bunch of different Xs in different components 21:52:53 Isn't it weird, a 1.3 GHz CPU with 4 GiBs of RAM at its disposal? 21:52:58 so you could do IO-bound and network-bound and CPU-bound things all at once 21:53:01 A few years ago you'd be laughed at for suggesting it. 21:53:09 "Nonsense; we'll be using 4 GHz CPUs with that memory in a few years!" 21:53:18 "And if the CPU is low-powered, no reason to put expensive RAM in it!" 21:53:28 alise: well, processor clock speeds stopped going up 21:53:37 but the processors are still getting faster regardless, mostly by adding cores 21:53:38 ais523, that too, but my scenario also makes sense, for a certain value of sense 21:53:39 Huh, BFS also makes the kernel smaller. 21:53:45 ais523: If not for public perception they'd be going /down/. 21:53:47 For power usage, etc. 21:53:51 pikhq: Yes. 21:53:57 pikhq: Because it removes CFS. 21:54:03 alise: well, I really don't care about my clockspeed 21:54:03 pikhq: Which is not Brain Fuckedly simple. 21:54:20 mostly because you can't get an electronic engineering degree without realising that lower is normally better, if you can speed the resulting speed up some other way 21:54:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:54:45 alise, I still do quite a few heavy serial tasks, meaning I want a reasonably high clock speed 21:54:52 2.26 GHz is quite nice 21:54:55 like this laptop 21:55:00 ha ha, AnMaster doesn't understand how CPU architectures work 21:55:03 everybody laugh at him 21:55:05 alise: just do those heavy serial tasks simultaneously 21:55:09 *AnMaster: 21:55:24 ais523, doesn't help if it is one task only really 21:55:34 and sure, there are other ways to improve speed 21:55:36 AnMaster: I'd be surprised if your /life/ was that serial 21:55:39 better instruction set and so on 21:55:39 "My CPU is a 10 GHz Subleq! Fuck yeah, serial tasks." 21:55:46 ais523: Oh, trust me; AnMaster's life /is/ that serial. 21:55:57 What could be more important than stitching panoramas?! 21:56:09 well, you can stitch two panoramas at once 21:56:12 ais523, of course I do other stuff while waiting. I'm in no way suggesting that dual core or quad core is bad 21:56:19 and even then, that task seems somewhat parallelisable 21:56:27 STITCHING TEN PANORAMAS AT ONCE YEAAAAAAAAAAAARGH 21:56:46 PHOTOGRAPHER HULK SMASH (IMAGES TOGETHER) 21:57:17 just that 2x 2 GHz is better than 40 x 50 MHz 21:57:24 well, that is exaggerated 21:57:29 you still get my point though 21:57:46 but not as good as 1,000,000,000,000 x 100 Hz! 21:57:54 alise, stitching is quite parallelisable 21:58:01 modulo typos 21:58:02 (think Connection Machine) 21:58:36 alise, for some tasks that might actually be better, not for my use case though 21:58:55 same as 40 x 50 MHz could be better for some use cases as well 22:01:03 NETWORK_PERSIST=yes will speed up shutdown, right? 22:01:15 since it "skips network shutdown" 22:01:19 Huh. BFS manages to make latency lower with more CPUs. Nice. 22:01:20 any bad side-effects? 22:02:22 AnMaster: I guarantee that any even vaguely modern CPU executes things in parallel. 22:02:35 pikhq, yes I know about that 22:02:48 pikhq, in this case I specifically meant multiple cores 22:03:04 pikhq, rather than out-of-order, superscalar and so on 22:03:19 anyone wrt NETWORK_PERSIST? AnMaster? You know arch. 22:03:26 So, you are specifically referring to SMP. You probably still see benefits from it. 22:03:30 alise, NETWORK_PERSIST? 22:03:44 from /etc/rc.conf 22:03:50 alise, anyway I don't have arch handy to check atm. I'm on a hotel room with my thinkpad running ubuntu 22:03:57 Deewiant? 22:04:18 pikhq, oh definitely, which I also said 22:05:06 pikhq, but I wasn't complaining about SMP, nor NUMA, rather I'm saying that: 22:05:17 alise: well, processor clock speeds stopped going up 22:05:17 but the processors are still getting faster regardless, mostly by adding cores 22:05:17 ais523: If not for public perception they'd be going /down/. 22:05:26 is not always such a good idea 22:05:33 sure, for power usage it makes sense 22:05:46 AnMaster: do you have any idea how crazy things are at high frequencies, in general? 22:06:04 lower frequency = saner 22:06:10 is the general rule of electronics 22:06:13 ais523, well, to some degree. I don't have a degree in EE though 22:06:18 (slight possible exception: DC and AC work very differently) 22:06:40 High clock frequencies are *hard*. And the Pentium 4 managed to nearly top out on practical CPU clock frequency. 22:07:37 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:08:04 ais523, still, a) a lot of current software can't make easy use of multiple cores b) many tasks can't be parralellised very easy. Sure you can still run several of them at once, but sometimes you might only need one and you would prefer that getting done faster 22:08:09 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:08:48 alise: Beats me 22:08:50 AnMaster: I guarantee you run multiple programs at once. 22:08:51 in /etc/hosts does the preferred hostname come first or last? 22:09:32 as an example that is actually on topic, consider esolang interpreters. Specifically something like "running a bf program". You can probably split part of the optimising of the program in multiple threads (though some will depend on the inferred state at the end of the previous section and so on), but running it? no? 22:09:41 AnMaster: I guarantee you run multiple programs at once. <-- again I never claimed anything else 22:09:41 Doesn't it have localhost and localhost.localdomain by default 22:09:51 Deewiant: plus "myhost" 22:10:05 I've removed "localhost.localdomain" 22:10:18 I guess localhost would be preferred of those two, anyway 22:10:19 AnMaster: you mean your BF interp doesn't autoparallelize loops? 22:10:23 but I can say that my computer is currently mostly idle. I'm using irc, and htop. Then there is a number of stuff like udevd, various kernel processes, and what not running 22:10:27 Apparently the FSF itself doesn't understand the GDFL. Nice. 22:10:48 ais523, that could be done, but there are lots of programs that would gain nothing from it 22:10:48 ??? 22:10:49 weird.. with their demo batch it works great, but with my own photos, hugin didn't work at all 22:11:01 how did you get it to turn out so well? 22:11:02 Phantom_Hoover: *GFDL? 22:11:08 I understand it relatively well 22:11:27 ais523: oh my god amazing idea 22:11:28 partly because I used to be a Wikipedia admin, partly because I've used it myself for things that it's actually vaguely appropriate for 22:11:30 wrt parallelising loops 22:11:34 time to work on The Ultimate BF optimiser :D 22:11:41 yup 22:11:55 ais523: you could do /all/ polynomialised loops like that, I think 22:12:06 maybe 22:12:19 why would you parallelize a polynomialised loop? 22:12:19 ais523, lets take [->++>+++<<] and for the moment ignore that this could be turned into a simple p[1]=p[0]*2; p[2]=p[0]*3;p[0]=0; 22:12:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:12:33 you'd just polynomialise it instead 22:12:34 ais523, well, the FSF apparently told WP to ask their attorney. 22:12:43 ais523: I mean [ [...polynomial loop...] ] 22:12:49 ah 22:12:50 which turns into [ some polynomial ] 22:12:57 i'm pretty sure you could run those in parallel 22:12:59 ais523, all three written values would be in same cache line with high probability. Sure they might be split across two, but probably won't be 22:12:59 Phantom_Hoover: too be fair, the WP's attorney is Mike Godwin 22:13:10 *to be fair 22:13:12 ais523: wow, really? :D 22:13:16 yes, that Godwin 22:13:21 Godwin as in the Law? 22:13:22 ais523, as I said, lets ignore that for the moment: you'd just polynomialise it instead 22:13:24 the FSF probably just decided he was the best person 22:13:25 Phantom_Hoover: yep 22:13:29 Wow... 22:13:35 also, argh the lag 22:13:39 ``I request that the court consider the fact that the vandal, WillyOnWheels, has several similarities to the Nazis and indeed Hitler.'' 22:13:40 No output. 22:13:46 " you'd just polynomialise it instead" to " Godwin as in the Law?" showed up in 1 second 22:13:47 So, will he be comparing the CIA to Nazis 22:13:49 -_- 22:14:18 Godwin never stated that all comparisions to Nazis are accurate 22:14:22 Why would he use one? 22:14:29 hur wat is joek 22:14:38 "Your honour, someone else didn't allow us to use our logo. They were the Nazis. The defence rests." 22:14:45 s/our/their/ 22:15:37 ``The defence rests ON THE JUSTICE OF THIS COURT, which is so unlike many courts which are not justful. Do you know what one of those courts was? That's right. The court of the NAZIS.'' 22:15:38 No output. 22:16:06 alise, easy on the backquotes. 22:16:15 So, will he be comparing the CIA to Nazis <-- ?? 22:16:32 wow, it must be awful to be Mike Godwin 22:16:33 Phantom_Hoover: But ``fag quotes'' work perfectly with the right console font! 22:16:36 ais523: XD 22:16:38 and have people do this sort of thing everywhere you go 22:16:38 what have I missed here 22:16:43 AnMaster, CIA sues WP for using their logo thing. WP's attorney is Godwin. 22:16:48 Fill in blanks. 22:16:49 ais523: ITYM ``awesome'' 22:16:50 Phantom_Hoover: *FBI 22:16:51 ah 22:17:05 FBIAC 22:17:08 ais523, same difference 22:17:16 GRUB? Pah. 22:17:17 Godwin's response was awesome 22:17:20 Gimme lilo. 22:17:23 GIVE ME LILO 22:17:34 LILO: The best thing since sliced lilo! 22:17:40 alise: you're turning into a stereotyped Gentoo user... 22:17:48 alise, It's a bootloader. You use it for what, 3 seconds? 22:17:48 eh 22:17:58 I never seen a gentoo user claim that lilo was better than grub 22:18:00 ais523, ^ 22:18:02 Phantom_Hoover: THOSE ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT 3 SECONDS OF MY LIFE. 22:18:07 as in, any actual gentoo user 22:18:10 ais523: no, a stereotypical AliseLinux OS 22:18:12 user 22:18:17 ah, ok 22:18:17 alise, indeed 22:18:17 aliseLinux OS, how redundant 22:18:19 like PCLinuxOS 22:18:29 AnMaster: Yeah, but it's still an option on Gentoo. :) 22:18:37 It's a Linux-based operating system that runs on your personal computer! We have our brand name! 22:18:40 alise, PCLinuxOS for Personal Computers you mean? 22:18:52 pikhq, is it? huh 22:19:00 pikhq, I thought it was elilo that was 22:19:14 Nope, straight Lilo is still in Portage. 22:19:17 It's easy enough to uninstall GRUB, right? 22:19:18 wtf 22:19:34 And Gentoo does not install a bootloader by default. 22:19:43 pikhq: how do you load it by default? 22:19:43 alise, is this still on arch? 22:19:45 I'm curious now 22:20:02 ais523, while on livecd, you install one? 22:20:10 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:12 You ... can uninstall GRUB, right? :D 22:20:15 AnMaster: boring 22:20:16 alise: Yes. 22:20:19 Good. 22:20:40 ais523, since you install by extracting tarball, editing a bit in /etc, then chrooting and installing one for each package where multiple alternatives exist 22:20:44 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:20:50 ais523, such as dhcp client, boot loader, and so on 22:20:54 * ais523 vaguely wonders how Ubuntu would react to "sudo aptitude remove grub" or whatever the package is 22:20:56 oh and you build kernel there too 22:21:23 Arch installed. 22:21:30 ais523: "AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" 22:21:30 ais523, grub has priority: optional 22:21:52 ais523, however, it seems linux-image depends on grub 22:21:54 AnMaster: that implies it's not part of a default install 22:21:57 wait, recommends 22:21:59 nvm 22:22:03 brb 22:22:06 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 22:22:23 * Phantom_Hoover hasn't got grub installed. 22:22:28 * coppro has 22:22:30 I have grub-pc. 22:22:48 ais523, I don't have any depends on grub... just recommends and suggests 22:22:51 ais523, how interesting 22:23:08 ais523, no, I'm not going to test anything. I don't have a boot cd handy 22:23:11 and so on 22:23:14 at hotel 22:23:20 well, depending on a particular bootloader strikes me as crazy 22:23:32 ais523, oh but grub provides a virtual 22:23:34 why should anything care about the specific bootloader used, apart from bootloader modules (if such things exist)? 22:23:39 the virtual makes a lot more sense 22:23:40 but aptitude claims nothing depends on the virtual 22:23:41 XD 22:23:54 well, why on earth would you write "this program depends on some bootloader"? 22:23:59 also, is the virtual marked as essential? 22:24:02 hm 22:24:03 (and thus a dependency of /everything/)? 22:24:05 let me check 22:24:11 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:24:17 linux-boot-loader 22:24:24 I can't find if it is essential or not 22:24:32 info doesn't show it 22:24:51 ais523, can virtuals even be essential? 22:25:03 ais523, actually, it being essential would be silly 22:25:10 ais523, think of stuff like chroot installs 22:25:17 or xen (not sure how that boots) 22:25:23 hmm 22:25:33 "depends on some bootloader" would only really make sense for init 22:25:37 which isn't needed in a chroot either 22:25:44 ais523, linux-image 22:25:47 makes sense there too 22:25:50 it is a recommends however 22:25:59 linux bootloaders recommend linux? 22:26:01 or vice versa? 22:26:12 linux-image recommends grub 22:26:15 as far as I can tell 22:26:28 ais523, anyway, freebsd jails (glorified and more secure chroots) run an init inside each jail 22:26:36 normally it's a case of depending on something in general and something in particular 22:26:38 just as a parenthesis 22:26:51 like C-INTERCAL depending on "gcc or a C compiler" 22:27:05 linux-image-2.6.32-24-generic recommends "grub-pc | grub | lilo (>= 19.1)" 22:27:07 to suggest that gcc is the right compiler to install if there isn't one already, but any C compiler can be used if there is one 22:27:47 ais523, anyway what about coreboot? you wouldn't use grub then. Or booting linux stored in a NOR flash 22:28:04 * ais523 vaguely wonders if there's a difference between NOR flash and NAND flash 22:28:08 other than, you know, logic levels 22:28:22 ais523, well, iirc you can't get execute-in-place for NAND 22:28:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:29:00 ais523, quoting WP: "the interface provided for reading and writing the memory is different (NOR allows random-access for reading, NAND allows only page access)" 22:29:43 hmm, so it's a case of the names describing a lot that's irrelevant to the actual names 22:29:44 as usual 22:29:55 ais523, "NOR and NAND flash get their names from the structure of the interconnections between memory cells.[16] In NOR flash, cells are connected in parallel to the bitlines, allowing cells to be read and programmed individually. The parallel connection of cells resembles the parallel connection of transistors in a CMOS NOR gate. In NAND flash, cells are connected in series, resembling a NAND gate." 22:30:08 "The series connections consume less space than parallel ones, reducing the cost of NAND flash. It does not, by itself, prevent NAND cells from being read and programmed individually." 22:30:16 so it seems it isn't actual NOR and NAND 22:30:32 oh, it's based on half of the usual implementations in terms of FETs 22:30:42 ais523, ? 22:30:50 or maybe even the entire thing if you're going open-drain 22:31:21 ais523, while I understand every word of what you just said, I do not understand the whole thing... 22:31:42 also, wouldn't open-drain consume quite a bit of power? 22:32:00 not necessarily 22:32:17 although I think it does use higher power than the usual logic levels 22:33:23 ais523, also WP: "In flash memory, each memory cell resembles a standard MOSFET, except the transistor has two gates instead of one." 22:42:26 ugh hugin keeps shrinking my image 22:42:31 is there a way to overrride? 22:45:39 Huh? You can specify any pixel-width you like in the stitching window. 22:46:13 If it shrinks in the preview, it means the optimizer thinks the field-of-view is smaller than what it was. 22:47:41 -!- cal153 has quit. 22:47:43 There's that "calculate optimal size" button which makes it calc pixel size for the output so that its resolution approximately matches the source images. 22:48:14 And the scrollbars in the preview control the fov. 22:55:12 I want to invent a 'patamagician class in Dungeons&Dragons 22:59:27 Plain TeX is more better than LaTeX! I have used both, and I have concluded that Plain TeX is more better. In addition, cross-references can be done in Plain TeX without needing auxiliary files or two passes. 23:00:13 'patamagician? 23:01:05 I get the impression alise missed stuff in Spaced 23:01:22 I'll check when I get home 23:02:37 I think the attempted jump to Epsilion Eridani occured too soon 23:02:40 -!- alise has joined. 23:02:57 Xorg 1.8: "We made hotplugging and automatic hardware detection work. Like, actually really honest-to-godly work." 23:03:08 "Oh, and NO MORE FUCKING .FDI." 23:03:22 A+++++ would buy again 23:03:23 Spaced? 23:03:28 coppro: Yes, it is my idea, 'patamagician class. Some of its features are both spontaneous and prepared casting (but less slots than normal, even in total), a null metamagic feat, extra 'patamagic uses, and cantripology (when you run out of all slots (both prepared and spontaneous), of all levels, you can get one free 0-level slot costing 1 XP) 23:03:33 coppro: Wat 23:03:41 night 23:03:49 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 23:07:01 So, anyone know of a Linux browser that isn't naff? ...Yeah, didn't think so. 23:07:13 s/Linux// 23:07:16 See Phantom_Hoover, I said ``naff'' instead of ``sucky''. 23:07:20 What does "naff" means? 23:07:20 Seriously, web browsers suck universally. 23:07:22 pikhq: That too. s/ / /. 23:07:27 pikhq: Yes I agree 23:07:30 zzo38: British slang for "kind of rubbish". 23:07:40 Software, really, sucks universally. 23:07:44 zzo38: Something naff is... ineffectual, useless; like "crappy" but more... bleh-y. 23:07:57 pikhq: Be careful! Phantom_Hoover will DESTROY your negativity with a Care Bear stare. 23:08:27 I get the impression alise missed stuff in Spaced 23:08:27 I'll check when I get home 23:08:27 I think the attempted jump to Epsilion Eridani occured too soon 23:08:30 and AFK 23:08:47 Sgeo: I did 23:08:50 Sgeo: I corrected it 23:08:52 see my lastest link 23:08:57 I missed one chapter out 23:09:03 AFK 23:09:52 coppro: Spac\'ed (I dunno how to do the rightwards-pointing accent in the Linux console...) is the second major story-arc of the Ed stories. 23:10:01 http://qntm.org/ed, or see the logs for my nicely-typeset PDF. 23:10:15 ig 23:10:17 meh 23:10:44 pikhq: Hmm... how is Konqueror these days? 23:10:54 Meh. 23:10:57 * alise installs Midori 23:11:03 If you disable some toolbar icons it's... usable. 23:11:48 I would also like to note that pekwm is a pretty nice window manager. 23:13:40 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:21:03 Hey, pikhq. If GTK et al are rendering UI elements and text in bitmap fonts, what does that mean? 23:21:08 I think I have non-bitmap fonts installed. 23:21:52 Uh. I dunno. 23:21:53 Actually /no I don't/. 23:21:59 That'd do it. 23:22:05 Arch is really a bit anal with the "DO NOT INCLUDE ANYTHING IN PACKAGES! ANYTHING!!!!" thing. 23:22:06 AAAAAAAAAAA http://www.firstpersontetris.com/ 23:22:20 oerjan: Just from the URL: <3<3<3 23:22:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:23:02 * alise "sacrifices the present at the altar of the future" by installing the bitstream fonts 23:23:34 It's flash 23:24:34 pikhq: I've installed Linux Libertine. I guess I have to tell something that's my default font now, huh? 23:24:59 And AFK soon forreal 23:25:23 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:25:38 Sgeo: interestingly, that fact never crossed my mind. but then i was seriously dizzy most of the time. 23:26:08 I use FlashBlock, so I immediately notice 23:26:58 pikhq: Linux Biolinium O. Yeeeees <3 23:27:40 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 23:29:49 alise: Sadly, Linux Biolinium is not finished. 23:31:37 :( FlashBlock 23:31:37 pikhq: But it IS hot. 23:31:46 Furthermore, OMG GTK+ THEMES STOP SUCKING. 23:32:39 -!- alise has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:32:39 alise: The hinting sucks though. 23:34:41 linux botulinum 23:35:23 Why are there no nice monospaced fonts/ 23:35:23 the _final_ operating system 23:37:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:40:24 -!- SimonRC has joined. 23:40:31 Linux Bio-linoleum; the environmentally conscious, yet cheap and durable operating system. 23:40:53 * Phantom_Hoover does that weird snorty laugh thing 23:42:19 Oh, it's a font? 23:42:41 Any reason for it being called _Linux_ Biolinum in particular? 23:42:53 Sgeo, it's for Linux. 23:42:59 And why is it called Grotesque 23:43:01 I assume. 23:43:12 Sgeo, typography people have awesome terminology. 23:43:46 alise gave me a list of the proper terms for points. They're fantastic. 23:43:51 grotesque should be something with tentacles perfect for printing lovecraft stories 23:44:11 18 pt: paragon 23:44:15 "A sans serif style with moderate stroke contrast and modern proportions particular to the U.K. Usually features a two-story lowercase g, closed strokes (usually curving in slightly) on C and S, and a sloped, non-cursive italic. Classic example: Bureau Grot." 23:45:42 What typeface do the examples in http://typedia.com/learn/only/anatomy-of-a-typeface/ use? 23:45:44 It looks nice 23:47:22 How is the tail in R decorative 23:47:46 Ooh, the tail of that R was nice and curved in the input box. Too bad the .. chat thingy uses a different font 23:49:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 23:49:46 Hence "decorative". 23:50:08 Seriously, why aren't there any nice monospace fonts? 23:51:23 Particularly, monospace fonts that handle funny characters elegantly. 23:53:27 I still have no idea what a Foundry is 23:53:43 Except that some fonts are either missing them or missing information on them on Typedia 23:57:03 A type foundry creates fonts. 23:57:11 Well, typefaces. 23:57:21 Hence FontForge? 23:57:51 To install fonts on Ubuntu I simply copy them into ~/.fonts, right? 2010-08-08: 00:01:17 Right. 00:02:50 -!- alise has joined. 00:02:53 WTFFFFF 00:02:58 GTK doesn't respect fontconfig, seemingly. 00:03:04 Or, it does, just not local.conf. Or, ... what??? 00:03:23 It wants Xft configuration instead, seemingly. 00:03:40 alise, do you know of any nice monospace fonts? 00:04:14 Phantom_Hoover: A few... 00:04:48 Name! 00:04:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 00:05:20 Phantom_Hoover: All-time favourite would be OS X's Monaco. DejaVu Sans Mono is pretty good, you know, in the acceptable kind of way. 00:05:31 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:05:42 Luxi Mono is quite nice if you'd like a serifed monospace font. 00:05:59 Consolas is wonderful, but less-so outside of Windows. 00:06:11 Inconsolata's nice. 00:06:17 Yes, but it's so boring. 00:06:30 Which is not a bad thing. 00:06:38 Yeah, but, really, it's so boring. 00:06:52 I hate this family 00:07:20 It's highly readable. Which is pretty much the only thing I care about in a monospace font. 00:07:24 Sgeo has such a great family life 00:07:37 Phantom_Hoover: Droid Sans Mono is good but I can't distinguish it from DejaVu Sans Mono. 00:07:43 Incidentally, when do we get DejaVu Serif Mono? 00:08:00 Phantom_Hoover: Ah. Droid is fatter and less tall than DejaVu. An improvement. 00:08:03 Well, there is no physical abuse, so that's at least something to be happy about 00:08:35 alise: Except that Droid Sans Mono also has CJK support. 00:08:53 Sgeo: Pretty baseline conditions there. :/ 00:08:58 pikhq: That too. 00:09:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:12:29 Yay pekwm. 00:17:29 There is the 'patamagician class: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Patamagician.c (Is it good?) 00:17:55 The word "cromulent" must be used more. 00:18:14 Phantom_Hoover: No. It just embiggens people's reference-peen. 00:19:53 Phantom_Hoover: Do *you* want to use the word "cromulent" use more? 00:20:44 http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/cyk1s/mathematicians_of_reddit_question_about_prime/c0w810t 00:20:51 I feel dumber for having read that 00:21:06 Do you like a 'patamagician class in D&D game? 00:21:06 Actually, I haven't obviously 00:21:20 who has +o in here? 00:21:23 Now that I've read that, it's obviously a jumble of buzzwords 00:21:28 alise: who has +o 00:21:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 00:22:00 That comment in Reddit is not make sensable! 00:22:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:23:42 Quantum entanglement is unrelated. 00:24:38 Quadrescence: You can modify the topic message without +o in this channel 00:25:50 Quadrescence: why? 00:26:13 alise: i want to paste an age old IRC exploit to kick those who have an old client but I don't want to be perceived as malicious 00:26:25 -!- augur has joined. 00:26:26 Quadrescence: just do it. this channel is a de facto anarchy 00:26:33 i don't know why you want to do it 00:26:34 Quadrescence: Then post it to external URL and post the URL here. 00:26:35 but feel free 00:26:41 zzo38: makes no sense 00:26:46 actual ops are lament, fizzie, oerjan 00:26:50 oerjan never, ever uses ops 00:26:52 alise: whereas #ranarchism is a de jure anarchy! 00:27:02 okay well lament is probably okay with me doing it 00:27:03 fizzie kicks obvious trolls after years of debate and then feels bad about it 00:27:04 DCC SEND "fixyourclient" 0 0 0 00:27:05 -!- Warrigal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:27:12 lament only uses his op powers to further chaos and evil 00:27:12 not bad only one down 00:27:15 you fix your own client, Quadrescence 00:27:22 -!- Warrigal has joined. 00:27:34 Quadrescence: Why did you send DCC SEND "fixyourclient" to the channel 00:27:35 augur: RAN archism? 00:27:45 zzo38: i just explained 00:27:47 /r/anarchism 00:27:51 ah. 00:27:56 Wait, Warrigal's using an old client? 00:28:10 Let's try and see. 00:28:14 (In my computer, any IRC channels hosted there other than &SERVER do not even support +o (or any other modes), because of how I configured it) 00:28:15 Am I using an old client? 00:28:17 oops 00:28:22 Warrigal: yes go fix it 00:28:26 ACTION abc 00:28:28 argh 00:28:29 see watch I will kick you again 00:28:34 DCC SEND "warrigal" 0 0 0 00:28:34 -!- Warrigal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:28:37 hahaha sweet 00:28:43 i will now have endless fun with this 00:28:48 it is so funny when someone does it in #ubuntu 00:28:50 O, so that is how you do it 00:29:05 My client does nothing other than display the DCC SEND 00:29:06 they go to DEFCON 1 when it happens 00:29:09 So it is safe 00:29:13 zzo38: yes it is 00:29:19 Warrigal's still insine 00:29:21 Quadrescence: can i do that without connecting raw? 00:29:22 with irssi 00:29:29 Quadrescence: this is annoying. stop it. 00:29:34 augur: what 00:29:40 augur: what is annoying 00:29:40 we can just specifically target warrigal now 00:29:44 your DCC shit 00:29:48 augur: what about it 00:29:50 Quadrescence: augur is probably set to go DING DING DING every time you dcc 00:29:55 also augur thinks he's an op 00:29:55 hahahahahaha 00:30:03 DING DING DING 00:30:12 no, it doesnt ping, it just pops up a window showing the DCC requests 00:30:24 even worse 00:30:27 augur plz don't be mad and fix your client 00:30:30 or I will do it to you more 00:30:49 alise: go do it in #ubuntu 00:30:50 My client simply displays the DCC SEND in red, inline together with all the other messages (which are normally blue). 00:30:59 zzo38: yeah you're ok 00:31:06 Quadrescence: what command, without manually connecting? 00:31:11 also, how long will i be banned for? 00:31:21 does it matter? aren't you quitting uboob anyway? 00:31:22 alise: Probably it depends what client you are using? 00:31:27 quitting, i quit it all the time 00:31:30 then i end up using it again 00:31:47 zzo38: All I do is paste it, including the NULL or whatever at the start (probably not a NULL but whatever) 00:31:55 alise, I'll slap you if you intefere with anyone who needs to get help 00:32:09 Hay, why is your name "alise!~ehird" 00:32:13 But that doesn't mean I won't enjoy seeing it happen 00:32:18 Oh my god I just flipped my screen upside down 00:32:21 I love xrandr 00:32:22 -!- Warrigal has joined. 00:32:30 Huh, I didn't know this version of irssi was an old client. 00:32:31 Warrigal: did you fix 00:32:42 No. What version of irssi do I have? 00:32:51 9.4 00:32:54 One vulnerable to some exploid 00:32:56 *exploit 00:32:57 Just disable receiving DCC SEND in your client? 00:33:51 Irssi tells me it's version 0.8.15, which appears to be the newest version. 00:34:07 I know how to send that kind of DCC SEND in my client, simply type DCC SEND "fixyourclient" 0 0 0 00:34:20 But most clients do not do it this way. 00:34:44 So, sloppy focus, howsabout it. 00:34:55 zzo38: no 00:35:01 You need that extra character 00:35:04 What client is zzo38 using? 00:35:07 before DCC 00:35:39 Sgeo: Why don't you check what client? Using CTRL+A VERSION command to check? 00:35:49 Quadrescence: What extra character? 00:36:02 PHIRC? 00:36:06 Sgeo: Yes. 00:36:39 zzo38: It's an invisible/unicode character. If you have proper fonts it'll show up as a box or a square with numbers 00:37:18 Quadrescence: you misunderstand. 00:37:29 Quadrescence: in zzo38's client, literally inserts ^A. 00:37:34 i.e., the CTCP character. 00:37:35 Oh okay 00:37:39 sounds good 00:37:40 this is because zzo38 wrote his own client in php and it is basically raw. 00:37:44 (and insane) 00:37:49 I see 00:38:07 whaat xsetroot sucks 00:38:33 "Brits, we're talking about mathematicians in this thread. Do you know what a mathematician is? That's not a physicist (Penrose), a computer geek (Lovelace, Babbage, Turing), or a political hack (Russell)." 00:38:56 Did he just call Bertrand a political hack? 00:39:07 http://conservapedia.com/Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words#Decrypt 00:39:12 (And the is simply a shortcut to send a message to the current channel, if a space is typed at the beginning of the current line, it will automatically type in "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" on the command line, which can be backspaced as normal, and so on) 00:39:18 Ah, Conservapedia. 00:39:19 Okay then. 00:40:53 My client also does syntax highlighting of everything sent/received 00:41:09 in what syntax? 00:41:16 coppro: IRC syntax 00:41:56 Sgeo: lmfao what is this 00:41:57 XD 00:41:58 oh 00:42:01 conservapedia 00:42:02 i see 00:42:51 yes 00:42:53 conservapedia 00:42:57 the bastion for all idiots in the world 00:43:06 half of them are trolls, half of them are serious, and you cannot tell the difference 00:44:11 thats hilarious 00:45:26 PEKWM: HAHAHA I AM TABBING WINDOWS BY DRAGGING THEM 00:45:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:47:38 oerjan never, ever uses ops <-- hey, i _did_ ban fax 00:47:55 ah i didn't realise that was you 00:47:59 I feel dumber for having read that <-- that comment was nonsense 00:48:01 fair enough then 00:48:08 oerjan, I eventually realized 00:48:34 Wait, fax was banned? 00:48:43 yes 00:48:47 for being completely insane 00:49:15 (to the point of spamming the channel with "FUCK YOU" for dozens of lines just because... uh, I think Phantom_Hoover took more than a few minutes to reply to s/h(it)'s message) 00:50:12 * Sgeo remembers in English class in 7th grade, "I you he/she/it" and someone said "I you he shit" 00:50:26 s/h(it) is oerjan's invention 00:50:53 * Warrigal looks at his ignore list. 00:51:16 Ooh, am I still on it? 00:51:33 yes, fax is fucking nuts 00:51:43 Quite LITERALLY! 00:51:55 alise: get this 00:52:12 I'm getting it. 00:52:12 she /ignored me 00:52:21 apparently because i told you she's a she 00:52:25 She? Are you implying that she's TRANSGENDER? She'll flip out about that, you know! 00:52:35 "It" is the only safe option here, really. 00:52:51 Warrigal, alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list 00:53:16 No, he isn't. 00:53:43 Warrigal, Sgeo is letting you know that alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list 00:54:08 Let me know if alise asks me anything else. 00:54:26 Warrigal: wat 00:54:44 Warrigal, alise is informing you that Sgeo is letting you know that alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list. 00:55:02 alise is blinking 00:55:10 * Warrigal nods. 00:55:22 Warrigal: I have this sneaking suspicion that I am on that list. 00:56:08 You know, if alise were on my /ignore list, I might say that he's not, just to make him feel better. 00:56:11 Wait, Warrigal, did you say that alise isn't on that list, or that alise isn't wondering 00:56:13 Does ignore lists also cause auto-reply things to be ignored? 00:56:24 I said that alise isn't on that list. 00:56:30 (Such as CTRL+A VERSION and CTRL+A TIME and so on) 00:56:43 I'm pretty sure I am on Warrigal's ignore list. 00:56:53 Warrigal: You do know that I can read that, right :D 00:57:01 From now on, I will be exclusively speaking through alise 00:57:07 s/h(it) is oerjan's invention <-- it's supposed to be (s)h/it 00:57:09 Sure thing bro. 00:57:14 oerjan: well you're supposed to be HUH. 00:58:33 I do not agree with everything in the conservative words list, but I partially agree with a few of the comments there, but not fully. But there may be some things incorrect listed there, even if they say it is correct 00:58:40 I don't think I could pull that off, though. If I really could see what alise was saying, it would probably be pretty obvious. 00:59:03 Er, wait, I got confused there. 00:59:17 I meant to say, if I really *couldn't* see what alise was saying, it would probably be pretty obvious. 00:59:20 You could always logread to see what alise is saying 00:59:23 Though if I could, that would also be pretty obvious. 00:59:27 Good *God*. Palm used Palm OS up until *2009*. 00:59:48 So yeah. alise, it should be obvious whether you're on my ignore list or not. 00:59:52 Sgeo: I think he's enjoying being passive-aggressive more. 00:59:56 My phone is a Palm OS device. 00:59:58 I am. 01:00:16 Oh, such a clever ruse. 01:00:25 This I did not anticipate. 01:00:26 I know. 01:00:40 My monocle poppeth out. 01:00:43 alise: also i recall the particular thing causing fax to break completely was someone telling em "You fail at life". in a discussion about the _game_ of life. 01:01:07 oerjan: he was always broken, just most of the shards hit other places first 01:01:17 What the hell happened to fax anyways? 01:01:27 pikhq: hasn't seen em since 01:01:31 * Sgeo remembers yelling at fax when fax pretended to be clueless with Haskell 01:01:33 pikhq: he "changed gender" (DON'T SAY THAT HE'LL KILL YOU) and went off his rocker 01:01:33 *i haven't 01:01:38 when he was male he was ... insane, but, you know 01:01:40 What happened to MissPiggy? 01:01:43 Sgeo: = fax 01:01:46 Oh 01:01:46 = soupdragon 01:01:50 = crazy-ass bitch 01:01:53 oerjan: No, I mean, I am literally clueless as to anything odd about fax at all. 01:02:06 Log links or something? 01:02:06 pikhq: Um. Basically he started calling everyone cunts if you just ignored him for a second 01:02:16 or did something which made him think you were stupid (even just giving a tiny piece of advice he disliked) 01:02:21 Somehow I missed all this. 01:02:23 he regularly spammed the channel if he was being ignored or whatever 01:02:27 held tons of grudges against people 01:02:31 then would whine at them for ignoring him 01:02:34 And he's not been in my ignore list. 01:02:38 So... 01:02:41 How the hell? 01:02:51 pikhq: grep (MissPiggy|soupdragon|fax).* in recent logs 01:02:54 enjoy the insanity 01:03:04 Gah why do gtk themes suck. 01:03:11 Use Morphic! 01:03:27 not _that_ recent, from this year though 01:03:55 I wish Raleigh wasn't so damn ugly. 01:04:31 Is there a way to make Raleigh less 3D? 01:04:36 There should be searchable logs for #esoteric. 01:04:52 pikhq: There's Gregor's secret mirror. 01:04:57 (Secret because it takes ages to check out.) 01:05:17 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:05:40 There are... world sauna championships? 01:06:19 alise: I managed to miss this at a time I literally was doing nothing. Wow. 01:07:18 Heh heh, fax said string theory is wrong because it predicts more than 3 dimensions. 01:07:23 Warrigal: Yes. 01:07:27 Was I online? 01:07:28 He said it was just "plain wrong" because KLEIN BOTTLES. 01:07:36 Furthermore, he claimed he had a proof for the existence of god 01:07:37 This proof? 01:07:40 "Watch a plant grow". 01:07:45 I am not exaggerating, I swear on my life. 01:07:48 Awwwwww 01:07:52 Linky please? 01:07:52 That's adorable. 01:07:56 Find that log and read it and you will lose all religious faith because /God would not allow anyone to be so stupid/. 01:07:59 It *is* adorable. 01:08:00 Adorable in a pathetic, sad kind of way. 01:08:19 Gregor: we kept telling him that it wasn't an argument and he basically started yelling "PLANTS!!!!!" 01:08:31 * Gregor greps his secret logs :P 01:08:35 then he just went psycho 01:08:42 * Sgeo wants searchable online logs 01:08:49 What if he's schizophrenic? 01:08:52 There are... world sauna championships? <-- so i seem to recall 01:08:55 also if you ever objected to any sort of religiouslyness or god thing like someone mentioning god gratuitously in a "mathematical" "paper" (ultrafinitism HEM HEM) 01:09:00 he'd go "oh you're one of THOSE atheists" 01:09:03 THOSE atheists = atheists 01:09:10 Sgeo: He probably is. 01:09:16 Sgeo: In fact, let's just go out and say he is. 01:09:31 -chime This option indicates that the clock should chime once on the 01:09:31 half hour and twice on the hour. 01:09:33 xclock, fuck yeah 01:09:38 We should feel sympathy for him if he is. Try to get him to seek treatment or something 01:09:52 No, we really shouldn't. Besides he talked about seeing psychologists and shit 01:09:57 apparently they "just let him go" 01:10:05 whatever, even without schizophrenia he'd be an asshole 01:10:07 no sympathy 01:10:12 I don't generally object to stuff like gratuitous God mentioning. 01:10:25 I used to object back in 11th-12th grade 01:10:37 Warrigal: but this was a "paper" which started off like "I don't dislike infinity, I love it, I love it, I love God and his Glory and what he has Given us and and ..." 01:10:41 -!- Zuu has joined. 01:10:41 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 01:10:41 -!- Zuu has joined. 01:10:45 Someone fixes something on the teacher's computer, teacher goes "Thank God!", I say that it wasn't god... 01:10:46 Gregor: Hand me a day if you find it. 01:10:48 "...but mathematics is broken because exponentiation isn't total" (this was the actual argument) 01:10:53 pikhq: NO. MINE. 01:10:55 (it argued that "exponentiation is total" was an unfounded belief) 01:11:04 so yeah I was like "this is just some religious crap and then some bullshit" 01:11:06 * pikhq is manually grepping logs for relevant conversations 01:11:07 pikhq: Oh, you mean a day with fax crazitude. 01:11:13 XD 01:11:14 alise: yeah, that's a bit overly gratuitous. 01:11:16 pikhq: I just found where 'e was banned. 01:11:19 "GIVE ME THAT DAY!" 01:12:01 This Two Minutes Hate is going great, public opinion of Eurasia^Wfax has never been so low. 01:12:24 Good thing everyone hates fax now. I can't imagine what we'd do if we didn't all hate him. 01:12:28 we have _always_ been at war with fax 01:12:32 * Sgeo still wants a link 01:12:48 * oerjan wonders what'll happen if he reads that 01:12:51 Sgeo: DO YOU KNOW WHO ELSE WANTED A LINK? 01:12:52 FAX! 01:13:06 And isn't it Emmanuel Goldstein that was hated in the 2min of hate? 01:13:06 oerjan: He will climb into our windows at night and brutally rape-murder us.* 01:13:07 Gregor: Mmm. 01:13:09 *I'm not sure I'm joking. 01:13:28 I mean, yeah, we're at war with Eurasia^HEastasia^HEurasia 01:13:35 ^WOceania 01:13:47 We're at war with EurasiEastasiEurasia? >.> 01:13:56 It's a foreign name. 01:14:01 Foreign like NAZISM. 01:14:23 Warrigal: there was a really _messy_ unification. philologically, at least. 01:14:59 And phonologically... 01:15:24 phonogilly 01:16:01 If I write Linux distribution I put my own "decoration" package, which is very simple and has only three things: analog clock (instead of xclock), xeye (instead of xeyes), and screen saver (with several modes, such as variations of munching squares display hack, analog clock, digital clock, arbritrary text, blank screen, status screen) 01:16:21 No love for xscreensaver? 01:16:42 No love for xscreensaver? 01:16:44 Whoops. 01:20:33 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:20:36 * pikhq starts seeing the crazy 01:20:37 WTF 01:20:50 12:26:19 alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica 01:20:52 *groan* 01:21:03 Other screen saver modes can include: dim screen, cellular automata, distribution logo, and energy saver. 01:21:10 That should be enough screen saver modes 01:22:07 pikhq: actually he then qualified it by saying it was because mathematica is shit xD 01:22:14 but he hated wolfram haters 01:22:23 unity/gtk-kde4 0.9.4-1 01:22:23 community/gtk-rezlooks-engine 0.6-9 01:22:23 Clean looking gtk theme engine based on the cairo-enabled CVS clearlooks engine code. 01:22:26 [ehird@dinky ~]$ gtk-chtheme 01:22:28 (gtk-chtheme:2033): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed 01:22:29 -!- alise has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:22:39 -!- alise has joined. 01:22:44 sorry 01:22:46 did not intend 01:22:49 Here's fax's reddit page: http://www.reddit.com/user/cwcc 01:22:55 more fun fun fun 01:22:56 YOU NEVER INTEND 01:23:04 The text in arbitrary text mode and status display mode could be adjusted by manipulating files in the process's /9p/ directory 01:23:45 fax hated wikipedia btw 01:23:48 with a passion 01:23:58 alise: it would seem fax has disappeared from reddit too, then? or maybe he was banned. 01:24:12 (It is a idea of my Linux distribution (ArcaneLinux) that every process will have a /proc/[ID]/9p/ directory which is a file system by the program, if the program does not handle it, any accesses to the /9p/ directory will return a "device is busy" message or "no disk in drive" message) 01:24:17 maybe he killed himself. or moved on to another personality 01:24:58 oh, hm 01:25:25 he is presently on freenode as soupdragon 01:26:56 Anyone know an IM client that isn't Pidgin? 01:27:11 :P 01:27:49 alise: I don't know, I wanted to include some different IM protocol features into PHIRC, so if anyone wants to write the protocol plugins you can do so 01:28:11 What is your opinion of the ArcaneLinux process /9p/ directory idea? 01:28:19 zzo38: It's an idea. 01:29:49 alise: He really sucks at English. 01:30:00 pikhq: yeah that is a common trait of insane cranks. 01:32:01 oh 01:32:36 "do u no c++" "I wish I didn't "But I could write in C++ if I had a gun up to my head" 01:32:39 The program "xeye" just can set -b (background color) -f (foreground color) -t (thickness) -a (always on top) -d (do not turn off borders from window manager), and then waits for coordinates from stdin, each line is X-coordinate, Y-coordinate, radius, and then it draws that eye on the screen, at EOF it continues running until interrupted, but you can still make adjustments in the /9p/ directory 01:32:47 Ahh, alt-right drag is so nice to resize windows. 01:32:57 And the program "xusb" can simply list connected USB devices. 01:33:05 Why X usb? 01:33:13 It should be lsub. 01:33:17 X is the graphical system. 01:33:36 * oerjan finds out why Sgeo was mentioning the sauna championship 01:33:37 alise: It would be the name, "xusb" is a program which lists USB devices in a window and updates it automatically. 01:33:41 That is why. 01:33:43 Also, for programs like that, waiting from stdin is Bad. 01:33:50 They should be command-line arguments in accordance with Unix design principles. 01:34:59 alise, did Squeak blocks not used to be lambdas, but now they are? 01:35:02 alise: ArcaneLinux design principles are different though, which is that everything can be piped, and so on, and everything else. If you have a list of eyes already and don't want to add more afterward, just redirect the input from a file instead? 01:35:13 Sgeo: They were always lambdas, as far as I know. 01:35:27 alise, but they weren't always closures 01:35:33 So by your definition... 01:35:42 Sgeo: They weren't? 01:35:54 Want to ask in #squeak? 01:36:24 No, I'll trust you. 01:37:05 alise: It is much quiter in #esoteric when you're not around. 01:37:12 Quieter, even. 01:37:14 (The other design principles of ArcaneLinux is don't add unnecessary icons and decorations and stuff to programs (except for decoration programs), and don't use GNU long options) 01:37:30 pikhq: I'll choose to take that as a compliment. :P 01:37:52 For a while, I was the centre of the #haskell social graph thing they had auto-generated; basically it looked at who responded to who, and who talked most, etc. 01:38:05 I was the biggest, most-connected and centre of the graph, despite not talking about actual Haskell much at all. 01:38:32 16:30:32 * fax was getting along fine until people started being uppity /ignore users 01:38:35 *groan* 01:38:53 alise: You are a man who makes conversation happen, I guess. :P 01:39:02 Mostly useless conversation. 01:41:36 How-to-Do Girls - Bikini Calculus! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006U6KIK 01:41:58 Wat. 01:42:42 Chain rule is last on that list, but chain rule's rather easy, so... 01:42:51 Yeah, but there's no bikinis. 01:43:08 In more advanced texts. 01:43:10 Or DVDs. 01:44:01 No bikinis == good 01:45:40 You just don't appreciate Bikini Calculus. 01:46:06 maybe they've done bikini quantum mechanics too. with bras and kets. 01:46:24 alise, I'd appreciate it more without the bikinis 01:46:27 >.> 01:47:01 apparently not. 01:47:26 How can we trick the beholder to cast the "hold monster" ray on themself, so that we can use the "modify memory" spell then, and somehow to convince everyone that the gods is dead? 01:48:43 No-Bikini Calculus just doesn't have the same ring to it. 01:49:06 alise: depends how you interpret it. 01:49:10 Do you have any opinion of the answer of my question? 01:49:23 oerjan: Gee, you don't say. 01:50:10 Bikini Algebra has a ring to it though. 01:50:33 * oerjan waits patiently 01:51:24 I refuse to laugh or groan. 01:51:29 oerjan: Please wait forever. Your call is important to us. Push "0" for operator and then please wait even more forever, for listening to the operator, please. 01:51:52 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:51:53 Why is reading old channel logs for here amusing? 01:52:09 pikhq: Because it has a lot of writing in it. 01:52:15 pikhq: Because we are awesome. 01:52:22 zzo38: Things aren't amusing just because they have a lot of writing... 01:53:04 alise: Yes, but it is, if it is amusing writing... 01:53:38 alise: spoilsport 01:54:42 If you print out a Whitespace or Unispace program, that does not have any comments, or header/footer, or web, that means that you can reuse the paper because it is still blank 01:56:35 * oerjan realizes that the trick is in the eye of the beholder 01:57:24 oerjan: You are right, that is part of it. But it still doesn't help that is only a little bit idea 01:58:11 (We have 2 monster characters in our party, that probably would help a bit?) 02:01:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:06:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:11:51 Okay, why are there no simple GTK+ themes? 02:22:03 07:03:15 Also I'd say that Japan imports less culture from other countries. 02:22:38 Not true. A good 70% (number pulled out of rectum) of Japanese culture is imported. It's just morphed a hell of a lot after importation. 02:25:48 I think OpenDNS is broken. 02:26:03 Hmm, maybe not. 02:30:02 15:01:37 sometimes i like to pretend pikhq never googles anything but actually just happens to know everything 02:30:06 If only. 02:32:34 well if you ever googled you'd obviously have found that quote earlier 02:33:01 guh, gnome-look is down for me 02:34:02 Could someone follow this through to the download link and mirror it somewhere? http://gnome-look.org/content/download.php?content=72622&id=1&tan=70966423&PHPSESSID=6f31a60dfebaf1952b9c0467602dbe38 02:34:06 OpenDNS is being retarded. 02:36:12 Switch to Google DNS? 02:39:19 No. Very no. 02:41:32 Can someone do that mirroring? Anyone? :P 02:45:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:50:21 -!- calamari has joined. 02:51:33 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:05:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:07:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:07:24 -!- augur has joined. 03:28:33 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 03:35:52 alise: does http://gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-files/72622-Awakened.tar.gz work? 03:42:16 -!- alise has joined. 03:43:23 pikhq: Linux Libertine is not so good when hinted. 03:56:42 alise! 03:57:39 sup kid 04:00:26 stuff 04:00:28 brb 04:00:29 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:03:47 -!- alise has joined. 04:04:32 Whyyy does freetype fail so much 04:05:57 Because nothing free can be good 04:05:59 /troll 04:06:15 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit). 04:06:21 -!- alise has joined. 04:06:36 you troll, but oh, how true it seems 04:07:53 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:08:04 -!- alise has joined. 04:08:13 If you disable all hinting, it just looks like RISC OS. 04:11:52 brb testing something 04:12:03 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit). 04:14:26 -!- alise has joined. 04:14:48 Okay, you know how PC speaker beeps are redirected to the speakers nowadays? 04:14:53 Yeah, how do I disable that and just let the beep DIE? 04:14:59 brb 04:15:00 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit). 04:15:05 -!- alise has joined. 04:15:16 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit). 04:29:26 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:34:35 For the process /9p/ directory, if the program does not handle it, I read the opengroup list of errors I try to figure out which error it should be: ENODEV ENOSYS ENXIO 04:38:29 If you try to create a file there that the program it belongs to does not support (or modify an existing file in a non-supported way), should it return one of these errors? ENOSPC ENOSYS EROFS EACCES 04:39:24 But if the filesystem is only temporarily disabled due to the program doing something that should not be interrupted by calls to this file system, it could use EBUSY 04:40:09 (Or if the process is stopped) 04:40:31 -!- alise has joined. 04:40:55 Testing. 04:41:06 For try to create a file there that the program it belongs to does not support, there is one more error code I forgot: EPERM 04:41:11 alise: Testing is OK. 04:41:14 Well, that hasn't worked. 04:41:24 alise: What did you testing? 04:41:28 "Stuff." 04:41:32 alise: Text rendering sucks everywhere outside of TeX. Just accept it or kill yourself. 04:41:32 freetype stuff 04:41:41 pikhq: It's marginally acceptable on OS X... 04:41:44 (With an Apple display.) 04:42:03 Ah, yes. Apple was obsessed with getting it right so it doesn't suck much there. 04:42:13 Sadly, we can't just go with Display TeX. 04:42:24 ... :D WHY NOT 04:42:33 ... Why not indeed. 04:43:01 Testing again 04:43:03 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit). 04:43:09 -!- alise has joined. 04:43:11 Ew ew ew. 04:43:18 Okay; subpixel rendering is OUT. 04:43:19 For displaying text on screen that isn't a print preview, just simple bitmap fonts will do, I think 04:43:48 pikhq: I'm actually halfway to just going with http://sharpfonts.co.cc/; at least it'd just be ugly, rather than *actively hurting* my eyes. 04:43:54 Monospace will do for on screen text in many cases 04:44:35 pikhq: Unfortunately, slight-hinted greyscale text is ... well, blurry. 04:45:05 On a more upbeat tone, I managed to make a GTK+ theme that sucks less than the other ones. 04:45:13 I took Mist and changed the colours. It's now GreyMist. Guess what colours it uses. 04:45:33 Does it use grey? 04:45:41 CONGRATULATIONS! 04:45:49 You deduced the answer successfully! 04:47:22 * alise installs ROX Filer. 04:47:46 The /only/ file manager that doesn't suck. Probably. 04:50:43 alise: I've got to say, the DejaVu fonts are nice on screen with the actual TTF hinting running. 04:51:08 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:51:22 -!- alise has joined. 04:51:36 There. I'm running the only thing I can stand: wispy, badly-defined, fully-hinted, greyscale text. 04:52:08 What distro you on? 04:54:15 Arch. 04:54:22 And yes, I've tried the patched freetypes. 04:54:45 pikhq: Being able to close a window in one click on the title bar: Dangerous, or hideously dangerous? 04:54:56 Moderately dangerous. 04:55:07 I'll leave it at Win+Middleclick, then. 04:55:56 pikhq: It's just that I keep hitting Middleclick expecting it to close! 04:55:56 * Sgeo closes alise by accident 04:55:57 Meh, I'll add it. 04:56:34 Disconnecting soon 04:57:47 pikhq: Wow, click-to-focus seems so... static after sloppy focus. 04:58:54 Use Smalltalk as your OS! 04:58:57 04:59:22 pikhq: Can I just recommend pekwm+ROX-Filer+Midori as a nice desktop? 04:59:38 With my "bland" pekwm theme and "GreyMist" GTK+ theme, of course. >_> 05:04:44 -!- sshc_ has joined. 05:06:00 alise: Tempting. 05:06:08 What are you using for IRC and/or IM? 05:06:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:06:23 X-Chat for IRC, Pidgin for IM. Yeah, they suck, but so does everything else. Easy enough to use irssi or whatever. 05:07:29 what sort of IM? 05:07:34 IRC is an IM program 05:07:37 *protocol 05:07:57 not really. 05:08:04 IM is more one-to-one. 05:08:31 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:14:10 alise: You can do one-to-one with IRC as well 05:14:17 Yes, but.. 05:14:21 *but... 05:17:21 what's a good assembly language? 05:17:35 coppro: you mean, architecture? 05:17:42 ARM 05:17:53 MIPS 05:17:56 that's about it 05:17:59 MIPS is simpler i think 05:18:06 after all, Gregor isn't doing jsARM 05:18:27 MIPSv1 is simpler than any ARM. I can't speak to later models. 05:18:33 right 05:21:56 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:22:02 -!- alise has joined. 05:22:12 Yay, I have tray icons and a clock now. 05:22:29 If I write file manager for my Linux distribution, I won't use ROX-Filer or any other. But instead, have it simply display a list of files (no icons or menus are visible), which can be typed by keyboard or selected by mouse, function keys and other keys can change sort and so on, and some keys do space-delimited copy to clipboard, newline-delimited copy to clipboard, select by wildcards, filter by wildcards, command entry, open command shell he 05:22:35 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 05:23:00 re, and multi panes. 05:25:17 Is that good enough file-manager? 05:25:46 I guess. 05:27:36 Another feature would be to return a newline-delimited list of the selected files when the file manager window is closed. 05:27:42 (That is, return it to stdout) 05:28:18 Is this also a good feature, in your opinion? 05:28:30 I ... gues 05:28:31 *guess 05:29:23 Are any of these things I have described about it, things you would use or are interested in, or other people who are interested in? 05:31:14 There would be no menus, no toolbars, no icons for files, no context menus..... but there will be a status bar to indicate number selected, total size selected, current directory, current mode, and so on. 05:31:58 (And the three mouse buttons are used for different methods of selection, and also depending on single-click or double-click) 05:35:42 And three display modes: "short mode" (like output of "ls" to a color terminal), "long mode" (like "ls -l"), and "gallery mode" (displays a grid of thumbnails of all pictures in the directory, and ignores all other files) 05:36:17 (Gallery mode is the only mode that this program would display any graphics at all) 05:38:18 Are these all good ideas? Or are you differently? 05:41:49 I'm differently, but they are acceptable. 05:41:50 Goodnight. 05:41:51 Bye. 05:41:53 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:42:26 Gregor: Are you still available and do you have opinion? 05:43:26 Yes, I'm still single but I'm not really into long-distance relationships. 05:43:28 I have no opinion. 05:44:25 However, Gregor *is* perfectly open to same-sex relationships. 05:44:54 That's a non-issue :P 05:45:28 He may well be implementing part of the plan for all geeks to get laid. 05:47:07 I am open to asexuality because I am asexuality. I am not sexuality, and I am not homosexuality, and I am not heterosexuality. 05:48:00 Congrats on not being abstract concepts. 05:48:08 +1 to pikhq :P 05:48:24 pikhq: While also being a particular abstract concept. 05:48:41 Indeed. 05:49:31 xeye [-i] [-b bgcolor] [-f fgcolor] [-t thickness] [-a] [-b] [-w intended_screen_width] [-h intended_screen_height] [< file] 05:50:46 xaclock [-b bgcolor] [-f fgcolor] [-t thickness] [-a] [-b] [-x x_coordinate] [-y y_coordinate] [-r radius] [-w intended_screen_width] [-h intended_screen_height] [-z timezone] [-s] 05:51:22 Are these sensible to you? 05:52:13 These are two of the three "decoration programs" I plan to put in my Linux distribution (only these three, the third being the screen saver) 05:53:09 Is xeye the program formerly known as xeyes? 05:53:25 But ... cycloptic? 05:53:37 No, xeye is a new program that does something like xeyes 05:54:13 It draws one eye for each line from stdin x,y,radius. 05:56:11 Does it make sense? Does xaclock make sense? 05:56:31 What's the purpose of the intended width/height attributes? 05:57:44 Gregor: To optionally synchronize with positions of a centered background picture (which are only potentially useful if you do not use the always-on-top option or the option to not suppress window borders) 05:58:40 For example, if you have a background picture with a big monster with 17 eyes, and a clock on the wall in the background picture, you can include the parameters with it to make it work with these decorations even if your screen resolution is different 06:00:25 (Obviously it won't work if the perspective is wrong, but that is something you have to deal with, if you want xeye and xaclock to work with it, ensure to draw it with the correct perspectives!) 06:05:53 We don't need the -i option. Instead, just have xeye support comments in stdin with # at front, and #! beginning a multiline comment that ends with #? 06:07:13 And the -s (sound effects) option needs to take one parameter, which is the volume 06:10:46 xalsave [-l] [-w timer] [-p] screen_saver_type [screen_saver_arguments...] 06:12:21 screen_saver_type: analog-clock, digital-clock, text, display-hack, blank, dim, status, cellular-automata, energy-saver 06:23:17 -!- kwertii has joined. 06:54:01 Gregor: http://xplsv.com/prods/demos/xplsv_orsotheysay/ You may now feel inferior. 06:54:46 This utterly frozen browser sure makes me feel inferior ... 06:55:03 Chrome is needed. 06:55:10 Or recent Firefox. 06:56:16 Hm, is this canvas or something more exotic? 06:56:29 http://capped.tv/xplsv-or_so_they_say Or you could just watch a video of the same demo... 06:57:39 This doesn't really make me feel inferior though :P 06:57:41 Graphics ain't my thing. 06:57:53 Bah. 06:58:29 Heww Urf 06:58:32 *Hewwo 07:22:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:43:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:50:27 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:26:24 -!- MizardX has joined. 08:27:14 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 08:32:06 * augur dances 08:36:16 augur: Dancing because? 08:36:32 im working on a linguistic command line 08:36:44 and the language module for it is coming along nicely 08:36:48 I'm working on ... taking pictures of my eye :P 08:37:05 So you can parse all English I assume? :P 08:37:48 lol 08:37:53 well, itll be a fragment of english 08:38:00 but the crucial part is what you do with the parses 08:38:32 Yesh 08:38:39 Understanding English is good :P 08:38:50 language modules are supposed to transform (partial) sentences into key-value hashes that are used to represent commands to the command line 08:38:52 so for instance 08:39:28 "move x to y" would be the command { pred: move, object: { pred: x }, to: { pred: y } } 08:40:52 but more importantly, it has to be able to take partial parses and do that 08:41:10 and it also has to be able to take partial parses, and a command, and turn the command into the full parses that correspond to it 08:41:27 e.g. if you have the partial parses for "move x" and the command from before 08:41:33 it should be able to generate "move x to y" 08:41:38 Star Trek, here we come. 08:42:01 :P 08:42:18 internally the way im doing this is kind of perverse 08:42:45 SHOW US THE CODE! 08:42:49 patience 08:42:52 :P 08:42:56 itll be on github in a few days 08:43:12 ill give you a preview in a few hours once i get it to a state that i like 08:43:51 I'll be asleep in a few hours. 08:44:12 ok ill put it on my server now for your 08:45:01 actually 08:45:08 hows a pastie? 08:45:49 http://ruby.pastebin.com/SBFwDwpe 08:46:00 mind you, im not a very stylistic ruby coder 08:46:16 i dont know all the standard style conventions 08:46:35 I don't even know ruby :P 08:46:48 the uh .. complete method is a complete mess, too 08:47:00 because of the various conditions that are involved 08:47:14 i could probably refactor the whole thing quite nicely but im not going to right now ;P 08:47:15 * Gregor 's eyes glaze over. 08:47:34 see, what i do internally is like so: 08:47:42 commands internally are turned into graphs 08:47:44 so instead of, say 08:47:59 cmd = { pred => move, object => { pred => x } } 08:48:03 itll become 08:48:17 { 0 => { pred => move, object => 1 }, 1 => { pred => x } } 08:48:42 then non-terminal in the tree is associated with a rule in the grammar, right 08:49:01 so lets just talk about grammars 08:49:13 I'm going to talk about sleep instead. 08:49:15 To myself. 08:49:16 And my bed. 08:49:18 aww :( 08:49:19 night 08:49:24 Bahee :P 08:49:56 But immediately before I go to sleep, have a random picture of my eye because it took a lot of work to get this (fuzzy, out-of-focus) shot: http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageorig&var1=Assorted%2Fmyeye-2010-08-07-4.jpg 08:53:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:02:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:18:01 -!- tombom has joined. 09:29:51 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:34:21 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:34:28 -!- coppro has joined. 09:34:33 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host). 09:34:33 -!- coppro has joined. 09:43:58 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 10:06:15 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 10:06:25 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 10:08:33 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 10:17:28 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:20:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:23:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:24:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:48:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:58:16 Oh, no! 10:58:33 * oerjan see no one with nick Oh, no 10:58:35 *sees 10:58:49 I can't hum Also Sprach Zarathustra without it turning into the Mastermind theme tune! 10:59:02 WHY, GOD, WHY? 11:02:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 11:43:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 11:53:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:01:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 12:01:52 fungot 12:01:53 Phantom_Hoover_: that you did." he stared down at oats. so did ysabell and the others?" said the archchancellor. he was walking unaided now, provided that it was a tsortean soldier. despite himself, death was his master and that's all there was to it. 12:03:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:03:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 12:06:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:10:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:12:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:14:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:16:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:34:42 What random games could be made into Roguelikes? 12:34:54 Perhaps Elite: the Roguelike. 12:35:02 Phantom_Hoover: Go. 12:35:15 augur, ha. 12:35:27 hungry hungry hippos 12:35:59 "The hippo lunges at the ball! The hippo hits! The hippo eats a ball corpse." 12:37:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 12:38:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:38:36 OTOH if you made most modern games into Roguelikes they would be unbearably shallow. 12:39:07 -!- augur has joined. 12:39:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:48:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 12:48:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:59:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:03:44 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:08:25 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 13:15:03 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if anyone else here has even heard of Elite 13:26:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 13:29:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:35:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:12:46 -!- alise has joined. 14:33:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 14:52:28 I suppose someone knows why the Haskell logo is based on the bind operator. 14:54:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:12:45 -!- jix_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:35:21 -!- jix has joined. 15:43:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:46:32 -!- AnMaster has joined. 15:51:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:53:00 fizzie, panos might be coming up later this evening. One or maybe two with grand sea view 15:53:23 some from phone camera, some from my real camera 16:02:35 Does pattern-matching really work in eager languages 16:02:40 s/$/?/ 16:07:12 -!- tombom has joined. 16:10:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:21:27 I can resize and move windows without focusing them. Cool. 16:21:42 No, wait, I can't. 16:24:05 Darned keybindings inconsistency. 16:24:18 Well. Mousebindings. 16:29:52 Okayyyy... why does osstest work but not mplayer 16:30:24 cos of pi. 16:30:34 Phantom_Hoover: Pattern-matching works in eager languages 16:30:44 see e.g. ML; in fact pattern matching in eager languages predates pattern matching in lazy languages. 16:30:48 and indeed lazy languages altogether 16:30:55 fizzie, http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/tjol__oe__holm_1.jpg (__oe__ represents ö) 16:31:08 fizzie, quite small, used mobile phone 16:31:13 there are some visible seams 16:31:43 and it jpeg compresses the images badly 16:31:46 -!- alise has left (?). 16:31:48 -!- alise has joined. 16:31:50 Whoops. 16:31:57 and yes, some quite bad colour shift 16:32:24 mwahahaha my window manager configuration will defeat evil 16:32:25 ahem. 16:32:36 alise become: nil 16:32:39 what i meant to say is MWAHAHAHAHA 16:32:45 s/$/./ 16:32:48 Sgeo: Sniff 16:32:50 *Sniff. 16:32:55 Sgeo: Try "true become: false" sometime. 16:33:31 * Sgeo tried Object become: nil. on the recommendation of a tutorial once 16:33:36 Sweet, Pharo is in AUR. 16:33:38 The VM crashed 16:33:39 AUR? 16:33:41 Sgeo: Of course. 16:33:44 Sgeo: AUR = Arch User Repository. 16:33:54 Basically a bunch of "source packages" for Arch Linux. 16:34:06 So instead of getting the binary your package manager goes and builds it, etc., then installs it. 16:34:15 Aww 16:34:21 If you have a package manager that supports AUR it's basically like a regular package but sometimes not as polished and it takes a little bit longer. 16:34:32 Polish is only wrt patches and build settings, though. 16:34:37 Sgeo: Aww? 16:34:38 true become: false. doesn't cause crashy crashy. It causes freezy freezy. 16:34:40 Generally, http://www.conservapedia.com/Essay:_The_transitional_animal_the_flying_kitty%3F 16:34:46 Sgeo: Indeed 16:34:52 Scroll down for complete insanity. 16:34:58 Sgeo: I think it's doing some sort of loop based on whether a value is true or false 16:35:06 Sgeo: and obviously it's always false, so the loop never terminates 16:35:08 thus freezy freezy 16:35:20 Sgeo: use of become: btw -- future values 16:35:21 Well, the screen gets repainted when I unminimize 16:35:24 (you know what futures are?) 16:35:32 yeah but the VM handles painting 16:35:35 ...any relation to laziness? 16:35:40 (no, I don't) 16:35:54 basically a future is the result of a function called lazily 16:35:56 so e.g. you'd do 16:36:12 foo := @ bar longComputation: vitalInput 16:36:14 then if you did 16:36:24 "foo xyzzy", it'd return @ foo xyzzy 16:36:36 i.e. all message calls are delayed and run asynchronously, while "returning" immediately 16:36:43 you can force a future to be evaluated 16:36:53 now, when the future is forced, or the asynchronous computation completes, the Future code can do: 16:36:59 theFuture become: theResult 16:37:07 tada! no pesky wrapper objects left hanging around 16:38:03 Why must SmallIntegers hate become:? 16:38:11 Sgeo: because they're not real objects 16:38:18 you get how every object is a pointer, right? 16:38:27 like 0xfff points to an instance of MyAmazingClass 16:38:28 well 16:38:32 what smalltalk does is align every pointer 16:38:39 so that every pointer ends with a 0 in binary 16:38:41 and then 16:38:55 every SmallInteger, which is 31 bits (or 63, I dunno if Squeak does 64-bit) 16:38:58 is stored in the rest of the pointer 16:39:02 and the bottom bit is set to 1 16:39:05 so there's no actual object there 16:39:10 it's stored inline, if you assign it to a slot 16:39:14 -!- derdon has joined. 16:39:15 or use it in a variable 16:39:32 instead of "x = pointer to " we have 16:39:36 But that breaks the uniformity of everything being an object :( 16:39:45 "x = 0b1231" 16:39:49 erm 16:39:50 "x = 0b1101" 16:39:52 (for 0b110) 16:39:54 Sgeo: no it doesn't 16:40:00 Sgeo: from the perspective of the language SmallIntegers are objects 16:40:07 because you can send them messages, etc; this is handled specially by the VM 16:40:13 objects that can't handle become: 16:40:23 it's not like "Object become: nil" works either 16:40:31 i'd say an error telling you you can't do it beats a VM crash 16:40:42 become: only works in controlled circumstances 16:41:02 Sgeo: besides, any class can override become: to give one of those messages 16:41:10 although you could manually delete it from that class, still 16:41:17 anyway if it wasn't done smalltalk would be slow as fuck rather than slow as shit 16:41:27 so deal 16:42:03 Stupid efficiency concerns! 16:42:32 Hahaha. Smalltalk is the last one to worry about efficiency concerns. 16:42:41 Sgeo: anyway, SmallInteger absolutely does not break Smalltalk's purity 16:42:43 trust me on that one 16:45:53 What happens when the future wants to return a SmallInteger? 16:46:09 (Would actually come up if I used futures for the AW SDK stuff) 16:46:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:47:06 Sgeo: that's fine 16:47:08 foo become: 3 works 16:47:10 just not 3 become: foo 16:47:19 theFuture become: theResult, theFuture is a Future, theResult is 3 16:47:31 ...aren't they identical? become: is supposed to swap the two... 16:47:36 no it's not 16:47:46 "x become: y" doesn't touch y 16:47:49 it only touches x 16:48:00 "x become: y", i.e. "make x y", not "make y x too" 16:48:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:48:09 "true become: false" makes all booleans false 16:48:16 (unless you derive your own type of boolean ... :P) 16:48:30 sed 's/last full capacity: *\([0-9]*\) mAh/\1/g p; d' # Using sed to grep as well, fuck yeah! 16:49:43 alise, you're wrong 16:49:52 I am? 16:49:59 I really don't think I am ... 16:50:13 I know the code looks like it swaps them, but it doesn't afaik. 16:50:36 http://pastebin.com/Ng8x8dcf 16:51:00 Hum. 16:51:01 That is new to me. 16:51:04 Okay then. 16:51:16 There is a becomeForward: 16:51:20 Does "a become: 3" work? 16:51:22 Just out of curiosity... 16:52:08 Error: can't become SmallIntegers 16:52:18 Sgeo: Then just make it an Integer. 16:52:22 Easy to convert. 16:53:23 [ehird@dinky ~]$ pharo 16:53:23 libXdamage.so.1: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64 16:53:23 could not find module vm-display-X11 16:53:23 /usr/bin/pharo: line 2: 15272 Aborted sh pharo.sh 16:53:23 Sigh. 16:54:37 Going to watch some more SGA now 16:54:56 If I had become: in C#, I'd abuse it to allow me to do unit testing 16:56:27 fwiw, becomeForward: doesn't work with SmallIntegers either 16:56:53 I was going to express an opinion on SGA. 16:56:56 But it turns out I don't have much of a one. 16:57:14 Sgeo: just turn it into an Integer 16:58:24 Um.. 16:58:29 How am I supposed to do that? 16:58:34 asInteger doesn't help 17:00:13 Back to SGA 17:00:52 [ehird@dinky src]$ ./battery 17:00:53 43% 17:00:54 Yay, it works. 17:00:57 Sgeo: Integer new: 3, or something. 17:01:34 Integer cannot have variable sized instance 17:01:41 *instances 17:04:31 eh, i'd figure it out but i'm on 64-bit 17:04:34 which seems to be broken 17:06:38 Ask for help in #squeak ? 17:15:28 I think it's an arch problem. 17:15:33 * alise has a battery script thing working! 17:15:54 Sgeo: 'Sides, don't you mean #pharo? 17:15:59 *Besides; 'sides is irritating. 17:16:26 alise, there are 3 people in #pharo and I'm one of them 17:17:17 Also, I only noticed this just now, but #pharo is the wrong #pharo 17:17:34 ...and I was in the right #pharo-project which has 10 people 17:17:46 the AUR package just installs the 32-bit binary 17:17:50 lame 17:17:50 But still, #squeak is far more active 17:17:59 I'll just compile Pharo myself 17:18:25 technically it's just the squeak vm 17:19:41 There; sudo clyde -S squeak. 17:19:44 Then I'll manually grab the image. 17:23:31 This setup is pretty nice. 17:23:39 Perhaps I'm converging on a desktop OS I can stand. 17:27:34 Hi Phantom_Hoover. 17:27:47 Dunno why I did that. 17:30:07 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 17:30:14 Sgeo: Is there a nicer/simpler theme than the OS X-style one? 17:30:16 I know there was in Squeak. 17:30:33 Hmm, they've switched to FirstLast instead of FL. 17:30:38 There are other themes, but they're either ugly or broken 17:30:56 W2k isn't so bad. :-) 17:30:58 World Menu -> System -> Settings 17:31:01 *W2K 17:31:07 Oh, you found it 17:31:10 Hey, they finally made the settings browser not suck. 17:31:15 Sgeo: I /have/ used Pharo before, just an older version. 17:31:40 Sgeo: Soft Squeak and W2K both seem nicer than Watery 2. 17:31:48 The buttons on the taskbar thing are inverted in W2k, and the buttons turn blue eventually 17:32:02 The buttons look fine to me on W2K. But blueness is bad. 17:32:12 Soft Squeak, then. 17:32:17 Standard Squeak would be nicer if it wasn't white. 17:32:26 Um, try minimizing and unminimizing a window to see what I mean 17:32:31 Ah. 17:32:36 Anyway, in /my/ day we didn't _have_ a taskbar. 17:33:00 The OS X one is stupid anyway, the buttons are at the wrong side of the title bar. 17:33:35 I'm not an OSX user, so I couldn't tell >.> 17:34:04 * alise makes his menus flat, without gradients or rounded corners. 17:34:20 Much more mature. 17:36:04 Oh yes, the UI only uses bitmap fonts by default, how sane. 17:37:39 "Allow underscore as assignment". <3 17:38:50 Sgeo: What's the way to show the halo# these days? 17:38:51 *halo 17:38:59 Um 17:39:10 I have no idea, I just like to pretend it doesn't exist 17:39:24 That's an Ugly Squeak (TM) thing to me 17:39:47 It is. But it's also the only way to inspect some objects. 17:40:10 Probably some combination of alt or ctrl and a left or middle or right click 17:40:21 Tried those. 17:40:31 Maybe it's a menu instead of a halo? 17:40:47 Resizing windows is as slow as always... 17:40:49 Sgeo: Nope. 17:41:06 Then I have no idea, sorry :( 17:41:17 Ctrl-Click? 17:41:22 Brings up a menu 17:47:39 Not on the taskbar. 17:51:52 Sgeo: Shaddap 17:52:07 lol 17:57:21 Sgeo: Gah, "n asArray" spits out an array of SmallIntegers; one would think there would be a corresponding fromArray, but it seems not. 17:57:48 ...why would there be a fromArray? 17:58:03 Because there's an asArray which returns something just about useless without a fromArray. 17:58:13 asArray 17:58:14 | stream | 17:58:14 stream := Array new writeStream. 17:58:14 self digitLength to: 1 by: -1 do: [:digitIndex | 17:58:14 stream nextPut: (self digitAt: digitIndex)]. 17:58:14 ^ stream contents 17:58:48 Okay, so it returns digits. Hmhm. 17:59:00 Or, you know, anArray at: 1 17:59:14 Seems to work 17:59:18 Eh? 17:59:23 Sgeo: nope 17:59:27 65536 asArray 18:00:01 * Sgeo wtfs 18:00:33 {65536} at: 1 18:00:37 But that's not ANSI 18:01:12 Sgeo: ?? 18:01:28 Gahh, I hate it when people go "WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS? How DARE you ask without a practical, BUSINESS, best-practices reason for doing this thing?" 18:01:33 Sgeo: why are you wtfing? 18:01:42 Because asArray makes no sense 18:01:50 65536 asArray #(1 0 0) 18:01:54 Sgeo: Protip: The base isn't decimal. 18:02:32 Uh, I'm not sure what base it is. 18:02:45 * Sgeo wtfs at base 256 18:02:52 (Trial and error) 18:02:54 Is it base 256? 18:02:58 alise, where did people go that? 18:03:08 Oh yeah, ofc 18:03:11 256r100 65536 18:03:13 log256(65536) 18:03:15 erm... 18:03:35 not what i meant 18:03:44 you know what i mean 18:03:47 Phantom_Hoover: #squeak 18:03:55 How should I box a SmallInteger into a (Large) Integer? 18:03:56 =P 18:03:56 I have no idea what you're talking about. >__> 18:03:56 alise: why would you need to do that? 18:03:56 BrianRice: e.g. to use with become: 18:03:56 alise: what's the overall goal/problem? 18:03:58 there are ways to do it, but I'll avoid it if the purpose is just wankery 18:04:00 well 18:04:04 alise: what's the overall goal/problem? 18:04:04 Sgeo was wondering :-) just academic, although e.g. an implementation of futures that does "theFuture become: theResult" on completion would need to do it 18:04:07 if the result could be a SmallInteger. 18:04:09 there are ways to do it, but I'll avoid it if the purpose is just wankery 18:04:59 I expect that you should probably just look at existing implementations of futures like Squeak-E's promises 18:05:00 Well, yeah, it was just a hypothetical example. 18:05:00 here, I'll teach you how to fish 18:05:19 I urgently require a method to slap people over TCP/IP. 18:05:32 IMO, it seems more like giving us fish we aren't even interested in 18:05:35 One of the SCPs could do that. IIRC. 18:05:46 Oh 18:06:00 go open a class browser and look at the class side of Integer and its subclasses. or try browsing references to large integer class names, since those would be calling class-side methods. 18:06:00 Yeah, I did that. 18:06:00 I've been looking for ten minutes. 18:06:01 Fuckwit 18:06:29 So wait, does asArray just break the integer down into its constituent bytes and arrayise them? 18:06:29 "Why do you want to know, mere mortal?" "What's that? You're just CURIOUS? Well I know, but I'm not telling you." "Here, let me be condescending." "Have you looked at the class?" 18:06:36 Phantom_Hoover: Apparently. 18:06:51 What a strange thing to do. 18:07:34 keep at it. you need to learn this skill and I can't just fix it over IRC 18:07:35 BrianRice: Well, it seems you're more interested in being condescending than actually helping at all. I'd looked for 15 minutes and, if you knew, you could answer in one line; if you didn't want to tell me, you could have not said anything; but instead you're lecturing me about doing something I've already done. So thanks, but no thanks. 18:08:15 Learn how to look through a class browser? 18:08:20 Is this guy for real? 18:08:52 NO IT'S "LEARN HOW TO TOTALLY SEE WHAT METHODS WILL DO WHAT" YOU SUCK LOL I AM PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMER 18:09:23 Ah, professionals 18:09:57 I presume he's a professional, nobody else uses Smalltalk apart from hobbyists and they're just as assholic but less condescending. 18:10:13 alise: hey, I'll readily admit I don't know, but I don't know any question here on channel when first asked. I always figure it out dynamically. you guys are just not motivating me if you don't have an actual problem to solve and won't read existing code that does this. 18:10:13 BrianRice: you said "there are ways to do it"... I'd read existing code that does it if I had any idea where such code is. 18:10:13 I thoroughly looked at every method that could be in any way relevant. 18:10:13 well, try debugging an overflow condition 18:10:18 What ridiculous advice. 18:10:52 asArray breaks a bigint into constituent bytes, doesn't it? 18:11:16 Oh, there's no toArray. 18:12:20 "Assholic" is a wonderful word, BtW. 18:13:28 Sgeo: Yeah, dearrayising works. 18:13:31 But it's so... silly. 18:13:53 Hide it in a function and pretend it doesn't exist? 18:14:25 What if you don't know whether ot not it's a SmallInteger, and don't want to deal with it on the side using the future? 18:14:59 Phantom_Hoover: No such functions. 18:15:03 Sgeo: Eh? 18:15:12 * Phantom_Hoover likes functions 18:15:16 Phantom_Hoover: Only methods. 18:15:21 Sgeo: You can check what class a value belongs to. 18:15:22 But I like methods. 18:15:32 But which is better? There's only one way to find out! 18:20:37 Sgeo: aha! 18:23:09 Sgeo: got it 18:23:25 b := a positive ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: 4] ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: 4]. 18:23:30 b replaceFrom: 1 to: 4 with: a startingAt: 1. 18:24:03 replaceFrom:to:with:startingAt: is a primitive, too, so this should be the most efficient way, more or less. 18:29:07 Sgeo: Do you know the coding convention for when you do (...) someMsg: ... but the ... has an indent? 18:29:12 I have 18:29:16 toLargeInteger 18:29:16 ^ (self positive 18:29:17 ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: self digitLength] 18:29:17 ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: self digitLength]) 18:29:17 replaceFrom: 1 to: self digitLength with: self startingAt: 1. 18:29:29 but it seems weird how the replaceFrom:to:with:startingAt: line lines up with the conditional. 18:29:39 are you meant to have it unindented? 18:31:44 *asLargeInteger 18:33:22 Sgeo: ok, do you know how to file-out more than one method? 18:33:46 alise, incidentally, do you know where there's any decent documentation for Epigram 2? 18:33:59 There's the Epitome, but that hardly counts 18:34:02 Phantom_Hoover: there's a lot of links here: http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/web/ 18:34:10 http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~adam/type-inference/ 18:34:10 http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~dagand/#publications 18:34:16 Everything on http://strictlypositive.org/ 18:34:26 and most especially http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/ 18:34:38 There is no real actual written documentation, but by reading those and the Epitome you should be able to figure out ... well, something. 18:34:50 there's also 18:34:54 http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/man/man.html 18:34:59 the tiny manual 18:35:06 http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/test/Syntax.pig 18:35:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:36:17 Does this count as a three-star literate programming? if(*rule=='#' && (rule++,!is_weaving)) return; 18:36:23 Phantom_Hoover: also http://www.reddit.com/user/pigworker, Conor's reddit account 18:36:47 (See: You've used the boolean operators to sequence commands - without an 'if'. e.g. (result = do_something()) && (result = do_something_else()); on the C2 wiki) 18:36:50 Epigram, Agda and Coq are the most widely-used dependently typed languages, yes? 18:38:04 Phantom_Hoover: Nobody uses Epigram. It's purely a research project, but it /is/ one of great interest. 18:38:24 Why, exactly? 18:38:28 Nobody uses Agda apart from the Agda developers and Haskellers who like to think they're mathematicians. It's a research system too, just with a lot of seemingly-pointless real world libs tacked onto an unstable system. 18:38:34 People use Coq. 18:38:37 It's mature and works well. 18:38:40 (for proving) 18:38:46 Phantom_Hoover: because Epigram doesn't even have the upper layer language yet! 18:38:53 You know GHC's Core language that it compiles to? 18:38:55 The very small functional one? 18:38:58 Epigram, right now, is like that. 18:39:05 Epigram 1, sure, but nobody used that and it was never really completed. 18:39:12 Epigram 2 is in the very early stages (and has been since ~2005). 18:39:20 It's not nearly a useable language yet. 18:39:27 *usable 18:40:05 (But if I used && to sequence commands in C like that, I would probably only use it if there are many commands to be sequenced together in that way, and maybe type @/ after each one to make them appear on separate lines in the printout) 18:41:33 zzo38, what are you going on about? 18:41:47 Literate Haskell is just a fake kind of literate programming! 18:41:56 ... 18:42:04 Phantom_Hoover: What do *you* think I am going on about! 18:42:09 zzo38: You're right but that's ... terribly hyperbolic. 18:42:10 s/!/?/ 18:42:20 I have no idea, except that literate programming comes into it somewhere. 18:42:28 Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry, none of us have any idea either. 18:42:38 alise, that's good to know. 18:43:03 alise: What are you refering to, I wrote many things? What is right and terribly hyperbolic? 18:43:17 Does Epigram 2 have the cool syntax of Epigram 1? 18:43:24 Literate Haskell is just a fake kind of literate programming! 18:43:27 Phantom_Hoover: Not yet. 18:43:30 :( 18:43:33 Phantom_Hoover: Who knows what it will look like? 18:43:48 alise: O, so you agree? How is it terribly hyperbolic, though? 18:43:53 Phantom_Hoover: In 2005 they were scribbling on whiteboards. In recent years they've been redesigning the entire thing then finding out it's broken a few times. 18:43:58 Now they're actually writing the start of some code. 18:44:01 It's not a fast project. 18:44:21 Oh, so the Epitome isn't so massive as to be totally unreadable? 18:44:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:44:35 zzo38: I agree because it can't do rearranging; but it's hyperbolic because in Haskell, this doesn't matter: functions are always very small, and they can access the state of other ones in the correct monads, so you just separate into functions instead of the <>. 18:45:02 Phantom_Hoover: If you can handle tons of fun symbols where ASCII would go in real source code, and have an excellent ability to distinguish actual type theory from Conor's jokes, then it should be fine. 18:45:08 http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf 18:45:12 alise: Ah, yes, OK. 18:45:13 It isn't that long because, indeed, they haven't got very far. 18:45:42 Wait, so it isn't actually real code? 18:46:06 Phantom_Hoover: It is. 18:46:14 Phantom_Hoover: It's just preprocessed to make it all pretty with symbols and shit. 18:46:26 Ah. 18:46:45 Fun symbols are not used enough in code. 18:47:04 Well, a lot of these don't even exist in Unicode, I think. :-) 18:47:11 * alise tries to find a pdf reader 18:47:31 alise, Unicode has EVERYTHING, doesn't it? 18:47:39 Phantom_Hoover: Nope. 18:47:45 Phantom_Hoover: Not quite everything. 18:47:46 [ehird@dinky ~]$ ./src/battery 18:47:46 5% (.22 hours remaining) 18:47:47 Uh-oh. 18:47:50 A large subset of everything? 18:47:56 Phantom_Hoover: Nope. 18:48:05 But it is possible to add stuff in some sections meant for that purpose 18:48:18 A small subset of everything and a billion Chinese characters? 18:49:12 I seem to recall Unicode can encode all *currently spoken* natural languages by now. 18:49:28 But MATHEMATICS? 18:49:35 Well, all currently spoken, *spoken* natural languages, with an orthography. 18:50:01 And a decent number of historical scripts as well. 18:50:06 By no means complete though. 18:50:27 And, of course, its encoding of Chinese script is very much incomplete. 18:51:33 Gets the vast majority of CJK glyphs currently used, at least. 18:52:16 Though it inexplicably doesn't encode "Biáng biáng noodles". 18:54:53 Okayyy, I sure hope there is a good PDF reader in existence that isn't Evince. 18:54:56 (Evince depends on GNOME.) 18:55:18 pikhq: What do you read PDFs with? 18:56:21 alise: Currently, xpdf. 18:56:27 I would love a better PDF reader. 18:56:28 Ew. 18:56:43 pikhq: Evince is really nice if you can handle the GNOME dependencies; really really nice. 18:56:58 pikhq: You might like zathura: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=80458 18:57:16 I don't because I'm a bit of a mouse weenie. 18:58:02 My perfect PDF reader: Continuous view, scroll bar for the whole PDF. Resizing the window scales the PDF to fit the width. /Maybe/ some way to show the page number. 18:58:15 Write one. 18:58:41 Okay. 18:58:46 So I need to figure out poppler and GTK. 18:58:55 Yuh. 18:59:01 (thank God for poppler) 18:59:30 I shall christen it... pew. For "Pdf viEW"? Maybe? 19:00:53 pikhq: Okay, I'd better install an editor then! 19:01:00 All I have is XFCE's mousepad (which is a nice notepad replacement, btw.) 19:01:13 Have fun reflowing PDFs. 19:01:25 Gregor: Scaling != reflowing 19:01:33 Scaling = zoom 19:01:43 Yeah, that. 19:01:50 Ah, OK, I misinterpreted the goals then. 19:01:59 Gregor: Mind you, I'd /love/ to be able to reflow PDFs. 19:02:03 alise: Y'know what there's a horrible lack of? Nice keyboard-based GUIs. 19:02:24 pikhq: There is, but this PDF reader won't fill that gap, seeing as it'll have, uh, no controls. 19:02:39 It might have /one/ control: to show the page # information. 19:03:00 See, I prefer graphics over a console. Unfortunately, the only things with keyboard-based interfaces are on a terminal for the most part... 19:03:11 Well, also search. 19:03:15 Search will just be /foo. 19:03:27 Or maybe Ctrl+S foo. 19:03:29 Or Ctrl+F foo. 19:03:30 Who knows. 19:04:14 * Phantom_Hoover just walked into a throne room in Nethack. 19:04:18 Oh, crap. 19:04:29 A GUI IM client which can be used without a mouse would be nice, for instance. 19:04:32 * Phantom_Hoover attempts to close the door on the roomful of monsters. 19:04:56 (as would a TUI IM client at all, for that matter. I'm currently using freaking irssi via bitlbee. Bit clunky.) 19:05:07 Oh, look, the stairs are in it. Wonderful. 19:05:12 pikhq: If I ever get around to making my IRC client it'll fit that definition. 19:05:24 pikhq: It /will/ have menus, but anything you're ever going to want to do will be keyboard-based. 19:05:34 alise: Mmkay. 19:05:42 I mean, occasionally I end up operating in mouse-only mode for a while. 19:05:50 Especially if I'm browsing a lot. 19:06:06 pikhq: Oh, and of course the main feature, which will be proper typography. 19:06:18 Say, /actual spacing/ between the messages. Actual line spacing, for that matter. 19:06:25 In fact, I could just take cues from how plays are typeset, couldn't I? 19:06:31 They're pretty similar to IRC. 19:06:44 It's just that... Urgh. The mouse is such a piss-poor interface device for most things. 19:06:57 I agree, but... with reservation. 19:07:01 * Romeo is feeling suicidal 19:07:14 I like to manage windows with my mouse -- that doesn't imply a floating manager, though. 19:07:23 Phantom_Hoover knows about my platonically-ideal tiling mouse-based WM design. 19:07:25 (It is glorious.) 19:07:47 Yes, yes. A mouse is good for dealing with things that are inherently dealing with XY positions. 19:08:10 It's poorly adapted for "I want to hit the foo button, then the bar button, and then the baz option on the menu." 19:08:21 Right now I can manage all my windows with just a three-button mouse and the alt key. (Alt+left to move, Alt+middle to group in tabs iwth another window, Alt+right to resize, double click title bar to maximise, middle click title bar to close, right click title bar to hide, alt+right click title bar to bring up menu) 19:08:41 (This is, incidentally, the nicest WM workflow I've come across yet. At least until I make that tiling WM.) 19:08:54 A keyboard is *better* for such things, though perhaps a bit sub-par. 19:09:07 Better for what I said or for what you said? 19:09:13 For what I said. 19:09:35 Mm. For what I said, wrt the clicks, you'd think so, but actually the instinctual action kicks in. Like the Plan 9 guys say, the keyboard is a lot more think-y, whereas the mouse is a lot more do-y. 19:10:02 (optimal would be something with an entirely-software-driven tactical interface. Physical buttons being made as the software needs it, for instance.) 19:10:07 So even for closing windows, etc., I find the mouse more efficient (even though if you "self-timed" yourself in your head it'd probably seem slower since the keyboard is occupying brain CPU time, whereas the mouse is "boring" instinctual work) 19:10:11 pikhq: Yes; very yes. 19:10:24 pikhq: Although any position where you can touch your screen is awkward with a typical screen. 19:10:30 Have you read Stanislav's The Glove Box? 19:10:41 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=35 19:10:43 I never said anything about it being the normal display screen. 19:10:46 Indeed. 19:10:55 The Glove Box is a 3D, tactile display. 19:10:56 Think about something like a keyboard, except the buttons come in and out as the software demands. 19:11:09 Or a 3D tactile display. :P 19:11:20 I suggest reading the post; it even mentions how you could do such a "display". 19:11:23 (and of course, you get a normal keyboard for text input) 19:11:50 I dunno, I bet I could invent hand movements that represent letters/words more efficient than a keyboard. 19:11:51 Look at sign language. 19:11:59 With the Glove Box, that would be easy to implement. 19:13:06 alise: I was imagining just a mere keyboard-thing with software-defined buttons. 19:13:17 With the Glove Box, you've got much more room for input design. 19:13:19 pikhq: You mean the Optimus thing? XD 19:13:28 *Optimus Maximus 19:13:30 http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ 19:13:37 alise: No, no, no. The buttons do not exist until the software requires them. 19:13:41 Only $2,400! 19:13:44 And they exist in the shape so asked for. 19:13:58 This would be, ah, *hard*. 19:14:04 Glove Box is amusingly a bit easier. :P 19:14:22 (add-hook 'c-mode-hook (lambda () 19:14:22 (c-set-style "linux") 19:14:22 (setq tab-width 4) 19:14:22 (setq c-basic-offset 4))) 19:14:26 Time to code. 19:15:21 "There is currently very little documentation." --poppler 19:15:23 * alise cries 19:15:29 Glib: Documentation is in the release under glib/reference/html/ 19:15:31 Oh fuuuck you. 19:16:28 "Glib" is another good name for software. 19:16:37 A good name for awful software. 19:17:02 Glib <=> Object-oriented C? 19:17:27 pikhq: ePDFView may be good; Evince sans GNOME. 19:17:31 Phantom_Hoover: Plus other crap base don that, yes. 19:17:32 *based on 19:17:43 Not just OOP C; GObject, the worst possible incarnation of it. 19:17:52 pikhq: It's in emerge. 19:18:35 -!- augur has joined. 19:18:41 Doesn't support proper continuous mode though. Sigh. 19:20:20 pikhq: "index.sgml" --poppler source tree 19:20:28 It is actually SGML; I am not fucking with you. 19:20:41 19:20:41 19:20:41 19:20:41 ... 19:20:54 ... *It is actually straight SGML*. My God. 19:21:18 What's wrong with straight SGML? 19:21:27 Anyway, pew will be written in either Vala or Genie. 19:21:44 Since I have to deal with Glib and GTK+. 19:22:32 Yeah, if you're using GTK+ you may as well retain sanity. 19:23:42 Genie is great, have I mentioned that? It's a compiled-almost-straight-down-to-C-plus-GObject language with Pythonesque syntax (but without stupid colons) and with proper lambdas (they can contain statements)... 19:24:20 What is it with Python's crippled lambdas, by the way? 19:25:31 GvR is retarded. 19:25:51 mm... popplers 19:26:12 My competing PDF library will be called "tribble". 19:26:25 Wow, that's an indirect reference. Can we get some three-star referencers in here? 19:27:20 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:27:38 pikhq: This: http://sprunge.us/cKiP compiles to this: http://sprunge.us/feLC 19:29:16 How do you configure the browser XChat uses? 19:30:14 alise: Nice. 19:30:46 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:34:57 fizzie, apart from the above mentioned pano today I have this one: http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/tjol__oe__holm_2.jpg 19:35:08 my good camera, but some parallax 19:35:21 less in the preview, it really selected bad seams 19:36:08 have a few more, not sure if I will do them now or later 19:37:12 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:38:27 You killed fungot 19:38:28 ! 19:39:16 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:39:44 I didn't 19:39:56 A best kind of PDF view is, displays nothing except status bar (which shows page number and filename, and numeric prefix to commands), and the page view. 19:40:05 zzo38, s/A/The/ ? 19:40:13 And then, "v" switch view to normal document view or bookmarks view, "p" to print document, "s" to search, "S" for document status, "d" to change display settings, "return" to go to page by numeric prefix, "t" to convert to text, 19:40:16 "a" to adjust settings of document in memory, "C" to adjust command-line flags, 19:40:35 No interactive or animation or whatever 19:40:44 (unless enabled by command-line flags) 19:40:59 zzo38, as far as I know pdf isn't interactive in any way? 19:41:10 well you can make links, so you can click on "see figure 4.2" 19:41:10 Also, document security settings is ignored unless told in command-line flags to be standards-compliant 19:41:13 which is rather useful 19:41:29 and also a way to jump back to where you were before following the link in many readers 19:42:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:42:14 zzo38, all pdf readers except xpdf on linux has an option to ignore those, most ignore them by default 19:42:15 And each of three mouse-buttons different function, also depending on single-click/double-click, shift key held down or not, etc 19:42:16 so nothing new there 19:42:21 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 19:42:35 well, all I know about that is 19:43:01 And if you have links and a way to jump back like that, then also have, "b" to go back, and "k" to follow a fake link that points to the current location (so that you can navigate manually and then push "b" to go back) 19:43:02 I suppose someone knows why the Haskell logo is based on the bind operator. <-- i am pretty sure there was a contest. the previous one was a hodgepodge of lambdas and other symbols 19:43:24 pikhq: Unfortunately, it appears that there is no genie-mode. 19:43:59 alise, what is the context? 19:44:14 alise, everything is awfully slow on this wlan, so "check logs" is extremely unhelpful 19:44:17 alise: :( 19:44:31 in fact everything but upload speed, very strange 19:44:31 AnMaster: There, is these things OK now in your opinion? 19:44:46 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos 19:44:46 AnMaster: things. 19:44:49 AnMaster: it's a language thing. 19:45:11 zzo38, you said no interactive, do you include having clickable (or otherwise followable) links in that category? 19:45:33 AnMaster: No, followable internal links don't count as interactive in this case 19:45:43 zzo38, right 19:45:59 (Left-click selects text or objects, left-double-click follows internal link, middle-click scrolls, right-click to drag to draw a zoom box) 19:46:14 zzo38, I still suspect I will just continue to use evince, but your one sounds like a usable minimalistic alternative then 19:46:15 (And right-double-click zooms out) 19:46:54 hm, the haskellwiki itself hasn't had the logo updated :| 19:47:00 zzo38, for following internal links, having a browser like history for them is really helpful, especially when the link is to some page 400 pages away and then you need to go back 19:47:22 PDFs can also sometimes send a message to a server by internet every time you view it, my PDF viewer also would not do such a thing unless you enable standards-compliant mode 19:47:34 zzo38, I really like that feature of okular 19:47:39 evince doesn't have it 19:47:42 afaik 19:47:46 AnMaster: Yes, you push "b" to go back, that is the history! And then, possibly, "B" for list of history. 19:47:50 right 19:48:19 where's ais523 when you need him 19:49:15 zzo38, since the pdfs I read mostly fall into the category of standards with 400+ pages and lots of cross references... it is extremely useful 19:50:47 AnMaster: Yes, of course, that is why, that you would be able to use these kind of function, and PDF bookmarks menu, for these purpose. 19:50:59 pikhq: WTF? TAB in Fundamental mode is sometimes inserting spaces. 19:51:04 tab-width is 8 19:51:07 indent-tabs-mode is t 19:51:44 alise, and what is indention width 19:51:52 no such thing in fundamental 19:51:54 *indentation, also. 19:51:57 ah 19:52:05 which is why i'm so confused 19:53:45 hm 19:53:59 alise, maybe you misunderstood and there is such a thing in that mode? 19:54:16 alise, or does it insert them up to the next tab stop? 19:54:22 with that being 8? 19:54:41 and is there any pattern behind when it happens? 19:54:45 Ctrl+V TAB even inserts 4 spcaes! 19:54:46 *spaces 19:54:47 WHAT. 19:54:54 like, if there is something in the tabs before 19:54:55 at column 0 19:54:59 like: abc 19:55:03 oh wait 19:55:05 ctrl+v doesn't do that heh 19:55:07 alise, okay *that* is confusing 19:55:11 it's C-q 19:55:15 which works 19:55:16 C-q TAB works 19:55:20 TAB in col 0 inserts 4 spaces 19:55:47 hm C-v is scroll-up 20:09:27 pikhq: Bleh, This Is Hard. 20:10:28 Then, change the setting if you do not like it like that 20:11:12 zzo38: I can't figure out why it's doing it. 20:12:37 pikhq: You could try mupdf. 20:12:42 http://mupdf.com/ 20:12:59 It may not be able to search for text, but by golly, it's the most precise and accurate PDF rendering you'll find! 20:13:05 And it /is/ entirely keyboard-based. :P 20:15:33 -!- alise_ has joined. 20:15:34 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:15:38 It ... froze ... 20:15:39 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise. 20:15:43 MuPDF was so accurate it froze my system. 20:16:22 it brought the system down to 0 entropy, thus 0 kelvin 20:17:41 * alise has developed an Evil Plan 20:17:52 a language more naziesque than agda *and* eiffel 20:18:09 design by contract proofs 20:18:13 xD 20:18:58 I can see why Eiffel -> Nazi, but why Agda? 20:19:13 Erm. 20:19:16 a language more naziesque than ada *and* eiffel 20:19:23 Sorry. :P 20:20:41 how boring 20:20:49 So a type system that would make God himself cry? 20:20:52 oerjan: well, Ada and Eiffel are more naziesque than Agda 20:20:57 so the statement is stronger 20:21:14 (a > b /\ a > c) = (a > max(b,c)) ofc. 20:21:49 Only if Ada is Nazier than Eiffel. 20:22:10 True. 20:23:22 How about values start in a type, and *stay* there? 20:23:32 xD 20:23:37 None of this "Char → Int" stuff! 20:23:46 Functions are all a->a! 20:23:51 (a > b /\ a > c) = (a > b \/ c) 20:23:56 * oerjan cackles evilly 20:24:23 hm wait that is true for >=, not > 20:24:45 because technically max(b,c) itself could be > b and > c 20:25:21 erm, b \/ c 20:25:43 max might imply it's one of them 20:26:16 max(a,b) is definitely either a or b :P 20:26:44 if it exists 20:27:23 well, nazi orders _should_ be total, come to think of it 20:27:51 So, which is Nazier? Ada or Eiffel? 20:27:55 Ada 20:28:44 Examples of Nazi typing? 20:30:10 procedure Maximum(A : Integer, B : Integer) -> Integer; 20:30:10 MuPDF was so accurate it froze my system. <-- um, how? 20:30:10 result Result; 20:30:10 does; 20:30:10 if A > B; 20:30:10 Result := A; 20:30:10 else; --{ Thus B > A } 20:30:12 Result := B; 20:30:14 end if; 20:30:16 end Maximum; 20:30:20 Phantom_Hoover: Note that return parameters can have "tags". 20:30:25 alise, swap trash or 100% cpu resources? Or kernel bug 20:30:30 For instance, the functions that do console IO will return with the tag [Performs_IO]. 20:30:33 or X freezing? 20:30:35 All functions that use them will also have this tag. 20:30:40 alise, ah, I remember that from my Pascal days. 20:30:44 Stupid as hell. 20:30:46 Phantom_Hoover: No... 20:30:48 Phantom_Hoover: I'm inventing this. 20:31:02 You can call a function with the expectation that it will not perform console IO because it does not have the [Performs_IO] tag. 20:31:05 Tada! 20:31:23 No, I mean the need for a named variable for return values. 20:31:43 alise, that code looks very much like a cross between pascal and VHDL to me 20:31:56 Phantom_Hoover, also the := 20:32:05 but it would call it function not procedure 20:32:14 since procedure is a function returning nothing 20:32:16 in pascal 20:32:31 * Phantom_Hoover had an idea for a weird module system with only "export". 20:32:40 * alise tries to think of a suitably ludicrous contract for Maximum 20:32:43 * alise is unable to think of one 20:32:43 Phantom_Hoover, hm? what's so strange with that 20:32:56 Phantom_Hoover, you can use fully qualified name, in fact you do in many module systems 20:33:06 ha, I made an error in my comments! 20:33:07 Because there's no statement to import a module. 20:33:35 If you want to have the stuff in foo in bar, you need to but "export to bar" in foo. 20:33:48 Phantom_Hoover, well, there isn't in erlang either. You can import functions from modules, meaning you use bar() instead of foo:bar() 20:33:53 Phantom_Hoover, but that is it 20:34:04 AnMaster, you misunderstand me. 20:34:28 Phantom_Hoover, oh like C++ "friend" stuff 20:34:47 * Phantom_Hoover carefully avoids C++ 20:35:09 Phantom_Hoover, so do I to the extent that it is possible 20:35:14 university and so on 20:35:34 there was some course using C++ this autumn iirc 20:35:56 been C and python so far. Oh and VHDL and SQL but those are not general purpose 20:39:14 I present to you: Naked Zit (NaZi for short), the programming language. 20:39:14 http://sprunge.us/KXHO 20:39:22 Maximum, Minimum, and a relation between the two. 20:39:48 Note: The three spaces used for indentation are SOLELY for show; real code is always indented with tabs, the most reliable indentation character. Editors will display these as three spaces. 20:40:06 There is an error in this code. 20:40:08 Can you spot it? 20:40:19 alise, that editors would display it as 3 spaces 20:40:29 it could be anything :P 20:40:37 personally I prefer to have it equal 4 20:40:55 No, it is specified in the standard. 20:41:12 Now find the real error. 20:41:40 This is made especially easy by NaZi's clear syntax and precise specification. 20:41:48 alise, tl;dr 20:42:08 AnMaster: If you can't handle Maximum and Minimum, how will you *ever* handle writing enterprise-grade systems in it?! 20:42:29 Sorry, "it" is not clear in the last sentence I said. I hereby replace "it" with "NaZi". 20:42:32 Compiler error. 20:42:36 Syntactical style not obeyed. 20:42:40 alise, tl;dr because Idon 20:42:50 I don't plan to figure out that language 20:42:56 and I'm half asleep anyway 20:43:03 and finally I'm busy doing other stuff on the side 20:43:12 Why do you need to declare A and B twice? 20:43:26 Phantom_Hoover: The second time is in the contract. 20:43:48 What is the contract for? 20:43:48 Phantom_Hoover: Which is abstract behaviour disconnected from the implementation. 20:44:01 Phantom_Hoover: The contract specifies behaviour about the function. It is checked every time the function is called in debug mode. 20:44:04 This is standard from Eiffel. 20:44:34 But... why do you need to say that A and B are integers *twice*? 20:44:40 why not just prove that contract statically? 20:44:48 Phantom_Hoover: There are two A and Bs. 20:45:02 The A and B in the contract specify abstract variables, like a "for all" quantification. 20:45:12 The A and B in the procedure declaration represent the specific A and B passed to the call. 20:45:34 Actually, that's flawed, but who cares, it's nazi. 20:45:38 Spotted the error yet?! 20:46:16 Well, it states Maximum /= Minimum. 20:46:21 That is obviously false. 20:46:30 It does not state that. 20:46:37 Procedures are not values, and /= is not a defined relation. 20:47:00 Maximum(A, B) =/= Minimum(A, B) is obviously false, then 20:47:05 Prove it. 20:47:54 Maximum(3, 3) = Minimum(3, 3) 20:48:22 You win a prize! That prize is the corrected version made before I even asked: http://sprunge.us/GPWD 20:48:32 This includes a never-seen-before language feature: contract conditions! 20:48:54 Wait, make it require a proof of the contract. 20:49:02 An *explicit* proof 20:49:10 No! You might prove the WRONG THING. 20:49:29 Prove that you prove the right thing, then. 20:50:01 NO 20:50:08 WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH COQASIA 20:50:20 Coqasians, noted for their white skin, are EVIL INCARNATE. 20:50:23 (I maed pun) 20:50:30 Oh, no, none of those *POLYMORPHIC* things! 20:50:58 Dependent types are obviously the work of the allies! 20:51:18 05:21:50 Phantom_Hoover: alise has this thing 20:51:19 05:21:56 jokes about "monad" and "nomad" 20:51:21 */prog/ has this thing 20:51:28 Phantom_Hoover: Absolutely. No polymorphism. 20:51:33 They can't even handle tagged types. 20:51:44 alise: */prog/? 20:51:44 We'll make our OWN proof checker! 20:53:08 augur: nomad is /prog/'s "joke", not mine 20:53:18 i dont know what /prog/ is 20:53:23 but it might as well be your joke 20:53:26 here at least 20:53:29 4chan? 20:53:34 http://dis.4chan.org/prog/; I recommend not visiting, since it's turned to complete and utter shit. 20:53:36 aha 20:53:40 i wont be visiting at all 20:53:44 Phantom_Hoover: Well, almost; a text board. 20:55:24 Maybe I should write a Roguelike. 20:55:51 alise, Elite: the Roguelike! 20:55:54 It must be done! 20:56:21 No! 20:56:33 Space Invaders: The Roguelike 20:56:43 Elite! 20:57:52 Elite Invaders! 20:58:11 Well, that's easy enough. 20:59:04 Someone's probably done it in Oolite by now. 20:59:12 Oolite? 20:59:20 Oh, some souped-up Elite clone. 20:59:32 Yep. 21:00:16 For some reason my GPU hangs when I try to play it since I installed Lucid.. 21:02:05 "Eben Moglen on LLVM: "Nobody has ever tried before, to build a multi-platform C compiler solely in order to undermine freedom" 21:02:09 *freedom. 21:02:13 Extra ". 21:02:26 Hahahahahaha. 21:02:48 LLVM is free, isn't it? 21:02:49 Phantom_Hoover: I suggest you use Alise Linux instead! 21:02:51 *alise 21:02:59 Which is my ridiculous name for Arch + my desktop stuff. 21:03:09 Phantom_Hoover: It's BSD! EVIL EVIL BSD. 21:03:14 They use a DEMON as their logo. 21:03:15 GPL 4eva 21:03:34 It's a driver issue, so I suspect getting a new computer is the best course of action. 21:04:12 ARCH HAS ALL THE DRIVERS 21:04:15 What card? 21:04:24 I do not have a card. 21:04:39 Onboard video? 21:04:43 What brand? Intel? 21:04:43 I have a bit of cardboard with some lines and an Intel logo drawn on it stuck to my motherboard. 21:04:57 Intel video on Arch is pretty snazzy here... 21:06:06 It only actually crashes in some circumstances. 21:06:45 "Eben Moglen on LLVM: "Nobody has ever tried before, to build a multi-platform C compiler solely in order to undermine freedom" 21:06:49 is that a joke? 21:06:52 AnMaster: nope. 21:06:52 and who is that guy 21:07:01 Software Freedom Law Centre guy, FSF lawyer 21:07:03 a retard obviously, unless I missed something HUGE 21:07:07 you didn't 21:07:21 he thinks Steve Jobs piling money into LLVM is evil because it's to stop the gpl 21:07:23 and thus is against freedom 21:07:31 alise, LLVM is BSD right? 21:07:34 BSD-2? 21:07:38 yeah 21:07:42 again, FSF guy 21:07:52 even rms isn't that crazy :) 21:08:39 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:09:04 well, people could use it and not give back to the community. While there are some good points in that, you have to see both sides of it. However it should be up to each author if he wants other to be able to build stuff on his code without opening it up to everyone. 21:09:19 It seems to come down to patents... 21:09:19 so yeah he is retarded 21:09:24 Phantom_Hoover, hm... 21:09:28 Phantom_Hoover: no 21:09:44 but yeah I don't see issues with GPL, nor with BSD-2 21:09:46 from another time: 21:09:47 "Moglen explained how Apple’s use of LLVM as an alternative compiler to the GCC represented a threat to the movement. If I followed correctly, this is due to the fact that LLVM has a more permissive, “BSD-style” license." 21:10:03 depeneds on what project and what you want others to be able to do with your code 21:10:26 alise, yes that one makes no sense 21:10:26 * Phantom_Hoover is getting that from reddit comments and the guy's speech 21:17:56 I don't use BSD-style licenses in my own programs (unless I am making modifications of a program that is already BSD-licensed). I mostly prefer GNU GPL, but for some programs I just make it public domain. 21:20:27 It's not the worst point ever, I strongly suspect that the GPL is waaaaay up there in the reasons why Apple is so interested in clang and LLVM. Still, everybody else benefits too, so who cares :P 21:20:30 Is there any command in TeX to tell it to ignore the outerness of commands? 21:20:40 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:20:52 The ... outerness? 21:20:56 Gregor: GPL3, yes; they were fine with GPL2. 21:21:08 Gregor: They started pouring more and more money into LLVM when gcc switched to GPLv3, which Apple wouldn't bundle. 21:21:11 alise: Like, if a word is defined with \outer 21:21:15 But yeah, calling LLVM a /thread to freedom/ is just... what. 21:22:13 alise, threat* 21:22:22 alise, thread to freedom sounds like it means the opposite 21:22:30 xD 21:22:50 * alise tries to decide between two Arch font rendering packages. 21:23:07 alise, it also sounds like a metaphor that was initially delivered way past it's breaking point 21:23:21 Metaphors are like babies ... you deliver them 21:23:29 Then you eat them. 21:23:39 Then you get carried away with them. 21:23:54 alise, indeed I extended that metaphor of "extending a metaphor past it's breaking point" past it's breaking point 21:24:01 Incidentally, alise, that was a simile. 21:24:24 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 21:24:30 Gregor, was that a meta joke? 21:24:46 Gregor: Similies are a new dawn. 21:24:57 * Gregor shakes his fist :P 21:24:57 They are the brightest girder in the pile of tacks. 21:25:08 Welp, looks like I've finally gone insane 21:25:12 Metaphors are like babies, similes are a new dawn. 21:25:20 -!- alise_ has joined. 21:25:27 I don't know what you're saying / but this has to rhyme with scorn. 21:25:35 WE ARE ALL INSANITY! 21:25:51 Well put. 21:25:55 (Do not worry, it is good things in some contexts, i.e.) 21:25:56 Gregor: Similies are a new dawn. <-- wait, is that a reference to that auto-tuned carl sagan thingy? 21:26:00 * pikhq is impressed with mupdf already 21:26:12 We are insanity! I got all my esolangers with me! 21:26:15 pikhq: But it can't even search! 21:26:15 mupdf: PDFs for muppets. 21:26:18 -!- alise_ has quit (Client Quit). 21:26:19 or am I just too paranoid... 21:26:24 AnMaster: No. 21:26:25 alise: Nor can xpdf. :P 21:26:25 Paranoid. 21:26:28 pikhq: Really? 21:26:32 alise, right 21:26:33 Really. 21:26:39 pikhq: MuPDF is primarily designed for accurate reproduction of the printed result, anyway. 21:26:50 alise, besides now I got an urge to listen for it, but I really want to play nwn for a bit. argh 21:26:53 * pikhq shall check it out 21:27:30 pikhq: Check what out? 21:28:11 Instead of using \outer I just changed yesweb so that any initializations like \newcount and so on go on a like with \init before \start (the "\in" at the beginning is significant, due to how yesweb works) 21:28:15 alise: MuPDF's actual PDF rendering. 21:28:50 alise, that video... it seems that guy made more auto tuned ones from cosoms 21:28:56 at least based on google search 21:29:07 I have yet to check that other one out 21:29:21 pikhq: It calculates to a precision of fractions of a pixel. 21:29:31 pikhq: Especially text metrics: 21:29:32 "The renderer in MuPDF is tailored for high quality anti-aliased graphics. It renders text with metrics and spacing accurate to within fractions of a pixel for the highest fidelity in reproducing the look of a printed page on screen." 21:29:53 Unfortunately, its UI is... lacking. 21:30:12 brb, testing something 21:30:22 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:30:35 -!- alise has joined. 21:30:51 Let's see if my eyes can adjust to this particular blend of subpixel antialiasing. 21:31:08 Because dammit, I need higher fidelity fonts. 21:31:29 alise: I'm actually not minding its UI, except for lack of features. 21:31:37 Scrolling is... painful. 21:31:42 (In the part before \start, the "n" is a comment character and \i is defined to do nothing) 21:31:46 pikhq: The tragedy of Libertine and Biolinium is that freetype can't fucking render them properly! 21:31:51 With any settings! 21:32:02 alise: I've mostly used Libertine in TeX for that reason. 21:32:28 alise: BTW, MuPDF also offers a *library*. 21:33:09 Yes, it does. 21:33:22 I don't think it'll be significantly easier to use than poppler, however, and the fidelity is mostly a pedantic conern. 21:33:31 Aaargh freetype doesn't render "fi" as a ligature 21:35:48 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:01 -!- alise has joined. 21:36:02 "fi" should not be rendered as a ligature in monospace text. (2600 does render "fi" as a ligature even in monospaced text, and that is a bad idea.) 21:36:09 It's not monospaced text. 21:36:17 2600? The magazine? 21:36:22 alise: Yes. 21:36:29 pikhq: Okay, how come freetype does "Qu" but not "fi"? 21:36:29 I do mean the magazine. 21:36:39 Well, it sort of does "fi". Sort of. 21:37:07 pikhq: BTW, have you ever tried ROX-Filer? 21:37:17 pikhq: It's like file managers, done right. In fact, it's not like that, it IS that. 21:38:18 alise: No, my idea for file manager is more better (at least in my opinion) 21:38:29 Let's see what kind of spells/powers my D&D character has: 21:39:05 Prestidigitation; Read Magic; Enlarge Person; Silent Image; Comprehend Languages; Summon Spider I; Locate Object; Hold Portal; Expeditious Retreat; Remove Hand; Object Mirrored; 21:39:30 Summon Rope of Spidersilk: Azore's Speaking Tome; Mirror Surface; Create Water; Amanuensis; Stick; 21:40:08 zzo38: Well, I wasn't referring to your opinion of file managers; I was referring to mine. 21:40:22 I think your idea is worse, at least for my usage. 21:41:05 Detect Psionics; Inertial Armor; My Light; Far Hand; Vigor; Touch of Health; Control Sound; Concealing Amorpha; Tongues; Levitate; Dispel Psionics; Detect Hostile Intent; Mass Missive; Control Light; Trace Teleport; Dimension Door; Major Creation; Object Reading; Time Hop; Make Food, Restore Extremity; Eidetic Lock; ..... 21:41:16 alise: OK, that can be your opinion, is OK 21:42:28 Which spells/powers do you dislike? 21:42:32 pikhq: urxvt sucks at font spacing. 21:44:50 I hereby recommend uxterm in its place ... 21:47:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:53:32 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 21:53:39 [[One expression I sometimes hear in motion pictures is the following: "I'm screwed". The character will pronounce these words when he suddenly realizes some problem that affects him cannot be solved. I looked in wiktionary.org for the verb to screw and the two definitions (acepciones in Spanish) closer in sense to what I think the verb means in the context of the above said expression are 2 and 3. 21:53:39 I'm almost certain it is a very rude expression. And wiktionary def.2 seems to confirm this. But I do now understand quite well def.3, especially when it says "screw follows fuck". However, I just have read a post in a very serious computer forum where somebody titles his post "Color prompt screws bash". I do not think the moderators there would allow it if it had sexual connotations.]] 21:53:49 Funniest thing I've read all day ^ 21:54:17 hahaha 21:54:53 (President Skroob is totally a pun) 21:56:48 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:57:47 fizzie: there appears to be a fungot shortage 21:58:08 oerjan: Yes, we lost them electricities for about two hours. 21:59:11 (Sometimes I have trouble believing this is a city.) 21:59:50 there was apparently a blackout in trondheim the other day. not here though. 22:00:25 It was a pretty localized break, something like ten times 5 city blocks (it's a bit hard to be sure, this is not a very grid-like layout). 22:00:33 (it affected the center of town, including the main hospital) 22:01:08 There was a reasonably strong storm here; we of course walked right through the rain and lightning, since we were at a (graduation) party of two friends from the university, and had to get home. 22:01:48 Hmm, the fungot laptop/server hybrid isn't speaking to me. 22:01:56 well then, obviously the lightning used up all the electricity. 22:02:16 I was in the room not long ago, and the GRUB boot menu was showing up okay. 22:02:31 There were a dozen kernels to pick from, though, and I have no clue whether I selected the right one. Possibly not. 22:03:04 sounds like an idea for steganography 22:03:34 usually, I pick the newest one 22:04:56 They all had the same version, just different suffixes related to different adventurous voyages in virtualization-land. 22:05:03 steganography? find the hidden message: asdfghjkl 22:05:24 ah. 22:05:25 The one I picked (the highlighted one, I think it's with grub's savedefault so it should be good) apparently wasn't the right one, based on a kernel panic it had gotten into. 22:05:33 Perhaps this one will fare better. 22:05:45 At least it answers to SSH, which is a good sign. 22:05:54 (That system is in a serious need of cleaning up.) 22:06:23 dont use xen or uml kernels 22:07:11 It used to run Xen, but they completely dropped support for non-PAE processors, and that thing has the 1.5 GHz single Pentium M model that doesn't do PAE at all. 22:07:24 UML I've ran elsewhere, but not on that thing. 22:07:40 Currently it was a choice between kernels with openvz, vserver, or both, in the name. 22:07:48 (Apparently "both" was a working alternative.) 22:08:34 umlpenvxenver 22:09:01 what happened to vmlinuz? 22:09:51 $ mupdf libertine.pdf 22:09:51 detected cpu features: mmx mmxext sse sse2 22:09:51 ximage: mode 24/32 00ff0000 0000ff00 000000ff (16,8,0) lsb 22:09:51 ximage: ARGB8888 to BGRA8888 22:09:51 ximage: XShmPutImage 22:09:58 pikhq: World's most advanced PDF renderer. 22:10:12 alise: Hah. 22:11:20 !haskell take 100$List.nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..] 22:11:34 [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,103,107,109,113,127,131,137,139,149,151,157,163,167,173,179,181,191,193,197,199,211,223,227,229,233,239,241,251,257,263,269,271,277,281,283,293,307,311,313,317,331,337,347,349,353,359,367,373,379,383,389,397,401,409,419,421,431,433,439,443,449,457,461,463,467,479,487,491,499,503,509,521,523,541] 22:14:42 pikhq: So, do you think I should write my PDF reader using MuPDF? 22:14:51 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin'). 22:14:53 -!- fizzie has joined. 22:14:55 alise: Sure. 22:15:00 "Quit" looks so elegant in this font. 22:15:11 Also those reverses, I really need to fix 'em. 22:15:34 -!- fungot has joined. 22:15:38 pikhq: 22:15:42 http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/mupdf/ 22:15:45 http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/apps/ 22:15:50 Worlds most advanced PDF viewer's C code. 22:16:23 http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/fitz/ Some geometry thing it uses. 22:16:28 http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/draw/ Drawing library... 22:16:47 Whole thing: http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/ 22:17:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:18:12 how does that haskell line work? i'd love to try in it c 22:18:36 s/in it/it in/ 22:19:24 Complicatedly. 22:20:38 (((>1).).gcd) is the same as \x y -> (x `gcd` y) > 1 , it's a test for whether two numbers have a common prime factor 22:21:14 it's not particularly efficient, just short 22:21:32 (especially since x will always be a prime in this program) 22:22:39 nubBy goes through the infinite list [2..] of all integers >= 2, throwing way all that have common factors with previous remaining elements 22:22:47 *away 22:24:05 so it's a form of eratosthenes sieve 22:24:10 *'s 22:24:37 i see 22:25:58 my programs just use the function for generating primes 22:26:45 what? 22:27:03 that function probably uses such a sieve underneath, if it gives primes by number 22:27:41 i for got what c header file it was in 22:28:32 (i'm not aware of any way of finding the nth prime without essentially testing all previous ones. although i might just not have heard of it.) 22:28:59 s/testing/going through/ 22:29:09 i'm referring to whatever the isprime() is called 22:29:15 benuphoenix: well that's cheating. 22:29:17 oh that 22:29:47 isprime() is less efficient than a sieve if you want to list all 22:29:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:30:16 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:30:18 (it duplicates work. well i guess it could use a list of primes internally to shortcut some) 22:30:50 Duplicates! 22:32:08 Someone pinged me? 22:32:16 pong 22:32:39 (don't use gcd either, use mod) 22:33:15 yep, sieving is fast 22:33:23 !haskell take 100$List.nubBy(((<1).).flip mod)[2..] 22:33:24 [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,103,107,109,113,127,131,137,139,149,151,157,163,167,173,179,181,191,193,197,199,211,223,227,229,233,239,241,251,257,263,269,271,277,281,283,293,307,311,313,317,331,337,347,349,353,359,367,373,379,383,389,397,401,409,419,421,431,433,439,443,449,457,461,463,467,479,487,491,499,503,509,521,523,541] 22:34:00 (the speedup here is probably not noticable though) 22:34:59 alise, when I do the LargePositiveInteger thing, I get 0 22:35:19 in principle one shouldn't use a linked list either, but an array for fast looping 22:35:28 Is that a bit strange? c+=first_col*!!(!(c=(c+1)%(first_col+num_cols)) && r++); 22:35:33 (LargePositiveInteger new: 3) printit -> 0 22:35:48 Is it even valid in C without undefined behavior? 22:36:00 Sgeo: Erm, yeah, I pasted a long snippet. 22:36:20 hm two assignments to c 22:36:30 zzo38: that's not defined 22:36:30 afaik 22:36:40 Sgeo: 22:36:41 10:23:25 b := a positive ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: 4] ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: 4]. 22:36:41 10:23:30 b replaceFrom: 1 to: 4 with: a startingAt: 1. 22:36:43 both lines are important 22:37:00 s/4/a digitLength/ to get something more general. 22:37:08 */g 22:37:19 alise: Why do UIs suck so hard? 22:37:48 pikhq: Because. What UI is specifically giving you crap? 22:38:13 alise: Just a general sentiment is all. 22:38:36 does the && give a sequence point? i'm not a C expert but _maybe_ it's well-defined in that case? 22:38:36 alise: O, it is not defined? Because of both assignment to |c| both at once? OK 22:38:49 oerjan: I think the && gives a sequence point 22:39:13 zzo38: i'd suggest changing it anyway :D 22:39:17 pikhq: how's MuPDF? 22:39:20 alise: Yes, that is what I am doing 22:39:24 alise: Nice rendering. 22:39:32 Hardly any features. 22:39:35 Better than xpdf. 22:39:54 It is now easier: if(!(c=(c+1)%(first_col+num_cols)) && r++) c=first_col; 22:41:34 pikhq: But not so good scrolling/zooming/etc. 22:41:48 pikhq: I have all of my own idea, instead, which is differently, but that is OK 22:43:00 alise: True. 22:46:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:47:46 zzo38: We know. :P 22:51:29 -!- gm|lap has joined. 22:51:35 Proposal: Interrobang as the Ligature for "?!" and "!?" 22:51:44 Imagine that in an OpenType font. Instant interrobangs! 22:52:02 Or exclagates, in the case of "!?". 22:52:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:53:59 -!- calamari has joined. 22:55:18 -!- Flonk has joined. 22:58:51 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 22:59:06 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:00:31 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:00:31 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 23:02:31 -!- gm|lap has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 23:19:21 exclagates? 23:21:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 23:29:44 Yes. 23:29:51 Interrobang = Interrogate + bang. 23:29:56 Exclagate = Exclamation + interrogate. 23:31:37 But that means if I exclagate you I don't bang you at all. 23:31:40 Where's the fun in that? 23:37:47 * Sgeo is contemplating watching SGU when he finishes SGA 23:37:54 Gregor: Well, you'll stay on the right side of the law. 23:38:02 alise: Fair point. 23:38:07 I do have a friend who likes SGU, so maybe it's not so bad 23:38:14 Sgeo: It's ... not great. 23:38:16 Sgeo: If the first two parts of Air are anything to go by, yes yes yes do. But get it in HD, it's filmed beautifully. 23:38:28 OTOH, Gregor has watched ... more than me, presumably. 23:38:33 coppro likes SGU. 23:38:41 but then I'm pretty sure coppro sat through the entirety of Voyager, so YMMV 23:38:46 I've watched all that have been released thusfar. 23:39:00 It's progressively turning into a cheesy soap opera. 23:39:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 23:39:07 It had potential, but it's just getting more stupid by the episode. 23:39:08 Thusfar: Not TECHNICALLY a word! 23:39:20 Although someone I hooked on the Stargate franchise doesn't like SGU 23:39:25 alise: Technically "not TECHNICALLY a word" is meaningless. 23:39:36 Then again, he also didn't like seasons 9+10 of SG-1 23:39:41 Gregor: The "gurl zvffrq... gjvpr" plotline that coppro told me about sounded awfully cheesy. 23:39:53 Sgeo: When did that guy whose name I forget "transcend"? 23:40:05 I thought that was awfully, terribly cheesy, and missed him; he was a good character. 23:40:11 alise, hm? Daniel Jackson ascended twice 23:40:21 alise: He came back in the next season :P 23:40:23 Well, the second time, not quite, I think 23:40:27 Gregor: >_< 23:40:34 Well, at one point he disappeared and somebody replaced him. 23:40:38 alise: Pretend that season doesn't exist. 23:40:46 Done. 23:40:55 alise: The guy who replaced him is a Scientologist whose real name is more alien than his alien name :P 23:41:02 XD 23:41:08 Wow, "Corin Nemec". 23:41:09 But then you don't get to see the many deaths of O'Neill! 23:41:37 * Sgeo double-checks his spelling 23:41:42 Gregor: I didn't even realise he was an alien. Apparently "alien" means "identical to human". 23:41:49 He doesn't even have forehead ridges! 23:41:57 alise: Alien in the sense that if you moved to the US, you'd be an alien. He's human. 23:42:07 Ohhhhhhhhh. 23:42:11 alise: Well, more alien than that, he's not from Earth :P 23:42:13 Well that makes much more sense XD 23:42:14 But he is human. 23:42:24 Most aliens are human 23:42:30 I've always been uncomfortable with this humans-are-everywhere thing. 23:42:42 One of the reasons why Stargate: SG-1 was good is that the aliens looked human because they WERE human, and the truly alien aliens didn't look human. 23:42:46 SG:A ruined that. 23:42:52 Actually, the aliens-are-humanoid thing too. But that's to, you know, be practical to film. 23:42:54 Although it backpatched a cheesy explanation. 23:43:14 Jaffa cakes 23:43:17 LULZ 23:43:22 btw 23:43:22 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Teal'c.jpg 23:43:24 Teal'c smiling 23:43:27 be prepared to scream 23:43:36 Teal'c is not a vulcan :P 23:43:45 Yes, but he also never smiles 23:43:49 And NOW I KNOW WHY 23:44:01 Hahaha 23:44:07 Gregor, what was SGA's explanation? Humans evolved similarly to the ancients? Are the humans in Pegasus not actually human, but decended from ancients, or...? 23:44:28 alise, he tells jokes! 23:44:39 The problem with abandoning the "aliens are pretty similar to humans" thing is that... well, you can't really make a long-lasting TV series out of Solaris. 23:44:51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka6tvlewO3c 23:44:55 Sgeo: Sapiens were seeded to evolve as they did by the ancients. The Wraith are half-human. 23:45:03 Sgeo: All very cheesy. 23:45:19 alise: See, but that's why SG-1 was good: It had an explanation that made sense, AND didn't require crazy costumes. 23:45:37 Gregor: But OTOH, humans are not very interesting aliens. 23:45:48 alise: And indeed, they aren't the interesting aliens. 23:45:52 alise: They're the slave race. 23:46:00 Star Trek, with its "fuck it, let's just make them humanoid" attitude, produces more interesting aliens. 23:46:02 But the goa'uld are, and they're parasites so they can be played by humans! 23:46:18 Yes... now try adding more aliens after you run out of plotlines. 23:46:24 The Asgard were also pretty awesome. 23:46:39 Don't get me wrong, I think Stargate is probably the most sci-fi of the sci-fi franchises out there. 23:46:40 pikhq: *BOOM* 23:47:01 You know, I'd be pretty ticked by the Asuran replicators if they didn't say "most efficient form *that they knew*" 23:47:09 The Asgard were just Greys 23:47:10 Gregor, there are still some out there 23:47:16 alise: Still awesome. 23:47:18 And Greys are NOT COOL 23:47:23 Sgeo: Shhhh, don't give away SG:A plots :P 23:47:28 alise: Norse! Greys! 23:47:40 Still, yeah. It's a concept that works well for about a reasonable show's length... 23:47:58 I have a stupid fucking GCSE English essay to be done by stupid fucking tomorrow demanded by my stupid fucking ex-teacher. 23:47:59 FML 23:48:01 Making another *show* of it requires, well, bizarre writing hacks. 23:48:12 (see: SGA, SGU) 23:48:36 Everyone should watch SGA "Irresistible" 23:48:39 Of course a /true/ sci-fi series has an infinite budget by definition and can represent all these aliens. 23:48:39 SG:U could have had potential ... but they went all soap-opera. 23:48:49 alise: Farscape? 23:48:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 23:48:56 Gregor: Sad to hear that; the one I watched was pretty cool. 23:49:13 Oh, wait, that had lots of humanoid aliens too. 23:49:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:49:18 Pet peeve: Why is it that sci-fi writers, when trying to give something an exotic name, simply pick the least common letters in English and then add apostrophes? 23:49:24 I mean, come ON. It is not fucking hard to avoid that cliche. 23:49:36 Many sci-fi writers are completely unaware of linguistics. 23:49:53 If the aliens can pronounce sounds like ours, they can pronounce a regular-ish name; if they can't, you can't give them a name like that. 23:50:06 pikhq: But even the most idiotic sci-fi reader can see that it's a cliche! 23:50:10 Yes. 23:50:22 This, incidentally, is the thing that annoys me most about Niven. 23:50:58 Maybe regular-ish sounds are reserved for non-names? 23:51:03 His alien names are random letters and apostrophes. (well, except when he opts for not-sucky names.) 23:51:09 Sgeo: Maybe no. 23:52:27 ("Chmeee" is a solidly meh name. Speaker-to-Animals is just somewhat interesting.) 23:53:25 I'd just invent a rudimentary alphabet and then specify the sounds, to be done as SFX. 23:54:31 pikhq: Fun fact: The first posted copyright-violation report was made by "Chuq Von Rospach", the first of June, 1986, on the posting of Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex", and it was even more self-righteous than the copyright defenders are today: http://groups.google.com/group/net.comics/msg/22a6091beb0762eb 23:54:50 "I also suggest 23:54:51 that the person involved contact Larry Niven with an apology, and see what 23:54:51 can be done to minimize the damage." 23:54:57 Also, earlier: 23:55:03 "by 23:55:07 leaving the copyright notices off you have possibly put the work into the 23:55:07 public domain and infringed on Niven's rights to potential future earnings." <-- LOL WUT 23:55:29 Surely e means that some may mistake it for being in the public domain? 23:55:39 Npe. 23:55:41 *Nope. 23:56:20 > >This article is not in the puiblic domain.  Mr. Crist has commiteed a crime 23:56:20 > >by publishing it without permission. 23:56:20 I love how absolutely DISGUSTED they are. 23:56:20 "Again, I recommend seriously that all System Administrators find the 23:56:20 offending copy of this article and delete it from their systems. All people 23:56:21 who made copies of the story should destroy them." 23:56:52 wow 23:56:58 then he quotes the anarchist cookbook in his sig 23:57:05 Surely that was before how widely understood it was that you can't really remove stuff from the Internet? 23:57:36 LOL 23:57:37 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 23:57:46 pikhq: Sorry, what was that about Farscape? 23:57:51 Sgeo: You could remove things from Usenet. 23:57:58 Sysadmins, remember. 23:58:11 But someone would surely just post it again 23:58:34 Posts can be cancelled. etc. 23:59:02 Oh and another thing ... why can't "serious" sci-fi shows just use the word "fuck" instead of coming up with shitty alien words for it? 23:59:55 US prudishness. 2010-08-09: 00:00:19 "fuck" would be bleeped. 00:00:26 Wait ... even after 8/9 pm? 00:00:28 Yes. 00:00:31 ... 00:00:35 WHAT?! 00:00:37 alise, they haven't got a watershed in the US IIRC 00:00:49 Wait ... didn't that show The Wire have a fuckton of profanity? 00:00:59 They had a fuckton of bleeps. 00:01:03 *****ton 00:01:10 Wow. 00:01:11 alise: the smeg i know 00:01:20 oerjan: The difference being that Red Dwarf was comedy. :P 00:01:29 pikhq: So ... uh ... how do you guys even ... television ... the? 00:01:45 The most bizarre thing being that this is also done on cable TV. 00:01:52 I seem to recall reading that it was partially due to the US having about 5 timezones, but that might be excuse-making. 00:01:55 ... Which has absolutely no such regulations at all. 00:02:40 pikhq: But ... why? 00:03:17 SGA had a character say "ass" in front of a toddler. That caught me offguard 00:03:19 alise: Okay, imagine the oldest, most crotchety, conservative person you know. 00:03:23 alise, the US is very conservative. That's what it comes down to. 00:03:28 These people vote in droves. 00:03:39 And complain in droves. 00:03:39 pikhq: But if there isn't a law for it for cable TV... 00:04:02 They file complaints like crazy to the cable companies and the networks. 00:04:12 Iiiii want to cryyyy 00:04:15 In short: our old folk are fucking noisy and irritating. 00:04:25 Why are you guys allowed to be the biggest superpower? 00:04:28 Except maybe China. 00:04:34 And so our television censors based on 1920s social mores. 00:04:39 I mean, on TV Tropes there are various references to films actively trying to avoid an NC-17 rating as if it would make it worthless, which is treated as normal. 00:05:04 If a film is rated NC-17 in the US, it basically will not be seen. 00:05:23 You can have frontal nudity in a non-NC-17 movie 00:05:25 iirc 00:05:27 Meanwhile an 18 rating is commonplace in the UK. 00:05:34 Sgeo, same with an 18. 00:05:43 You can get away with it in a PG, actually. 00:05:48 Not because it's been banned, but because almost no stores will carry it and no theatres will carry it. 00:05:52 Phantom_Hoover_: ... *PG*. 00:06:02 pikhq, Manon de Sources. Arty. 00:06:05 And French. 00:06:12 Phantom_Hoover_: Redundant. 00:06:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 00:06:39 pikhq: Yeah... typical film ratings here are 12A (basically PG), 15 and 18. 00:06:51 Any "serious" film will be 15 or 18, most likely. 00:06:52 Here, full frontal nudity will not make it NC-17 unless the crotchety old bastards on the rating panel feel it's too much. 00:07:02 Well, U and PG are common, as well as plain 12. 00:07:23 alise: We have G, PG, PG-13, R, (effective censorship) NC-17 00:07:48 pikhq: You're fucking crazy! I'm crying! 00:07:53 Oh, so it isn't even 17+, it's 18+. 00:08:01 Correct. 00:08:05 R and NC-17 are *both* 18+. 00:08:06 The BBFC system is something like Uc, U, PG, 12A, 12, 15, 18, R18. 00:08:07 What a stupid fucking name for 18+. 00:08:19 pikhq: But a 3-year-old can watch an R movie with a parent, right? 00:08:22 Yes. 00:08:25 Hmm. 00:08:26 Madness. 00:08:27 I don't think that is true in the UK. 00:08:29 Same with NC-17, actually. 00:08:32 No. 00:08:35 IIRC 00:08:36 "No one 17 and under admitted" 00:08:39 Would seem to imply not. 00:08:41 Ah. 00:08:46 Shouldn't it be 21+, to reflect the USA's fucking crazy moral system? 00:08:50 R- Restricted (1968–present) 00:08:50 Under 17 requires accompanying by a parent or adult guardian 00:08:50 NC-17- No One 17 and Under Admitted (1990–present) 00:08:52 * Sgeo did not like being forced to see R movies 00:08:52 alise, 12A is the only one where an adult changes things. 00:09:00 Moot point though, because no film is released NC-17. 00:09:02 Or, being forced anywhere, for that matte 00:09:04 *matter 00:09:14 pikhq: Apart from porn? 00:09:31 pikhq, so it goes G, R? 00:09:31 alise: No. Rating is not mandatory. 00:09:33 If a film *were* to be NC-17, it will instead opt for being unrated. 00:09:41 Ah. 00:09:48 Which will stop anyone from seeing it, right? 00:09:50 Madness^2. 00:10:05 Phantom_Hoover: You forgot PG, PG-13. 00:10:07 alise, probably isn't mandatory like the BBFC. 00:10:12 The BBFC system is something like Uc, U, PG, 12A, 12, 15, 18, R18. 00:10:18 R18 is porn, isn't it? 00:10:21 The rating is entirely optional. 00:10:23 alise, we don't have PG-13 in the UK, or I've never seen it. 00:10:25 (More or less.) 00:10:26 alise, yes. 00:10:27 It's done by the MPAA. 00:10:37 Phantom_Hoover: Eh? I thought you meant the US systems. 00:10:40 Went G, R. 00:10:47 Oh, right. 00:10:57 I thought you meant the BBFC comment. 00:11:13 So, G, PG, PG-13, R. 00:11:25 Basically, G is the rating for something that even the most crazy "think of the children" type folk wouldn't be offended by. 00:11:44 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what Die Hard was rated as in the US 00:11:52 PG is vaguely serious stuff, but for the most part quite appropriate for children. 00:11:53 pikhq: Well, your system is saner in one way (that all the ratings that are actually used can be overriden by a parent) 00:11:53 It's an 18 here, so... 00:11:56 PG-13 is that with cussing. 00:12:00 How did Avatar: The Last Airbender get the TV equivalent of G? 00:12:12 Sgeo: TV ratings are different. 00:12:12 Phantom_Hoover: Is Gc really a rating in the true sense? 00:12:22 Gc is exactly the same as G, just saying "hey, children will like this". 00:12:25 R is that with more violence and room for nudity. 00:12:29 Uc? Well, not really. It was for completeness. 00:12:33 Sgeo: ...TV HAS RATINGS IN THE US??? 00:12:41 alise: Entirely optional as well. 00:12:49 alise, it basically does here, if you count the watershed. 00:12:50 alise: And literally only exists as suggestions. 00:12:56 The only people who give ratings for TV in the UK are ... some TV guides. 00:13:15 alise: Ironically, we *still* have no cursing on TV. 00:13:18 I think the watershed should just be abolished and the main channels won't show hugely edgy stuff in the kinds of slots children etc. will be watching anyway. 00:13:24 pikhq, "ass" isn't a curse? 00:13:29 Sgeo: ... No. 00:13:35 Neither is "damn" nor "hell". 00:13:35 alise, does it matter all that much? 00:13:47 Phantom_Hoover: Well, not really. 00:13:50 Sgeo: Ass will still get bleeped. 00:13:53 pikhq: ... 00:13:55 pikhq: You're joking. 00:14:00 pikhq, FFS. 00:14:10 Haven't watched much SG-1/SGA on the TV 00:14:16 Just Hulu/YouTube 00:14:38 alise: As will "shit", "piss", "fuck", "cunt", "cocksucker", "motherfucker" and "tits". 00:14:39 pikhq: Okay, question: do the non-TV releases of shows have the cursing? 00:14:56 pikhq: I, too, understand references! 00:15:19 I cannot believe you can't say "tits" on US TV... hahahahahahaha you're crazy. 00:15:22 alise: ... I'm not even joking. I know I'm referring to a joke, but I'm not even joking. 00:15:23 Wait, can you say "cock" but not "cocksucker"? 00:15:40 Yes. 00:15:40 As in, "You are a person who sucks cocks" is okay but not "You are a cocksucker"? 00:15:43 pikhq: really? that stuff gets bleeped out for you? 00:15:50 Well, "motherfucker" comes above "fuck" in the BBC's List Of Forbidden Words. 00:15:54 coppro: Yes. The US is motherfucking insane. 00:16:21 O_o 00:16:22 Indeed, "motherfucker" comes above anything else in the List. 00:16:34 Phantom_Hoover: Link me? 00:16:37 Also, in searching for it I found THIS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7949077.stm 00:16:50 Fuckety fuck. 00:16:52 alise, well, it was anecdotal and in print. 00:16:52 Fuckety fuck! 00:16:53 we have a watershed, it's not as strong afterwards as in the UK, but we certainly can hear swear words 00:16:55 Oh fucky fuck fuck fuck! 00:17:06 Our game ratings are *also* absurd. 00:17:33 Phantom_Hoover: In what, the Sun? :-) 00:17:54 alise, of course not. Possibly one of the Guardian's array of supplements. 00:18:11 s/Guardian/Grauniad/ 00:18:14 eC, E, E10 00:18:22 eC, E, E10+, T, M, AO. 00:18:35 pikhq, doesn't seem *that* absurd. 00:18:48 "Early Childhood", "Everyone", "Everyone 10+", "Teen", "Mature" (17+), "Adult Only" 00:18:50 AO is reserved exclusively for Anarchy Online. 00:18:53 In the UK they just extend the film ratings. 00:19:09 Or some European system. 00:19:18 Yeah, we use the European system now. 00:19:29 I think I uninstalled AO recently, to make space 00:19:36 The suggested ages being: 3-10, 6+, 10+, 13+, 17+, 18+. 00:19:41 Only tried it once, remember nothing :( 00:19:42 pikhq, where be the insanity? 00:19:53 Phantom_Hoover: The ratings are *also* done by old crotchety bastards. 00:19:59 Although 17+ and 18+ is ridiculously stupid. 00:20:27 very few games have AO ratings because they're basically impossible to secure retailers for 00:20:51 Persona 3. CERO B, ESRB M. 00:20:53 coppro, ah. 00:20:54 and /me hates retailers who won't sell T or M games to people underage laiming it's the law 00:20:56 pikhq: I've got to know: what kind of 18+ material exists in today's society that the average (18-n)-year-old can't stand? 00:21:14 I find it really hard to believe that the average 16, 17 year old hasn't Already Seen That Shit. Probably even 15-year-old. 00:21:25 (Rhetorical question, naturally.) 00:21:32 Yes, something you guys call "appropriate for 12+" is on our highest-effective-rating. 00:21:38 Phantom_Hoover: it's not to say they won't rate them AO - they have on occasion - but that the game manufacturers will then do everything to get them down 00:21:39 Erm. Sorry, that's Japan. 00:21:45 PEGI, 12+ 00:21:55 Same rating meaning, at least. 00:22:11 *claiming 00:22:31 alise: Hmm. Well, there's probably some stuff that'd make them lose their lunch... 00:22:41 But said stuff would do the same to the same person at 18+, so. 00:22:51 Precisely. 00:23:05 Why do I always find myself orienting to a more conservative mindset in these matters? Intellectually, I agree with you all, but still, it feels.. weird, the idea of swearing not necessarily being something that needs to be shielded from kids 00:23:10 Does the US have the weird habit of viewing sex as worse than violence? 00:23:21 Sgeo: Outside of the US, swearing is not considered weird to expose to kids. 00:23:24 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 00:23:42 I'm pretty sure nobody would object to a parent saying "Shit!" due to a minor injury. 00:24:00 There is a mildly-valid slippery-slope argument, but... ugh 00:24:04 Sgeo: Dude, kids hear cursing. It's really not a big deal. Unless you're 60+ or a neocon. 00:24:17 pikhq, intellectually I agree, but... 00:24:21 alise, OTOH, having something really offensive to say when you type an extra space in "rm -r * ~" is helpful. 00:24:27 cursing is dumb anyways 00:24:28 Sgeo: Oh, get over your stupid US-based prejudices. 00:24:35 (the notion of it, I mean) 00:24:43 coppro, ^ 00:24:55 Phantom_Hoover: R is the first rating where nudity or sex can be depicted at all on film ratings. 00:25:04 Gore etc? 00:25:18 Phantom_Hoover: And this literally cannot be shown over the air. 00:25:21 that's fine for teenagers 00:25:35 coppro, no, that's the point. 00:25:59 Using it randomly leaves you with nothing to say when things go really badly wrong. 00:26:01 (and de facto can't be shown on cable TV) 00:26:02 Phantom_Hoover: no, I mean that's fine for teenagers in the US 00:26:17 alise: People do object to this. 00:26:24 Phantom_Hoover: the notion of a word to express strong discontent is fine 00:26:30 pikhq: Do object to? 00:26:34 and it's why I don't swear often 00:26:44 but the notion that certain words are inherently bad is ridiculous 00:26:46 alise: Cursing in front of a child. At all. 00:26:50 pikhq: Ah. 00:26:55 I swear a lot on the internet, barely ever in person. 00:27:04 In person they just seem ... unnerving, somehow. 00:27:08 I talk pretty much the same IRL as I do in person. So. 00:27:12 I try to avoid swearing in public 00:27:14 pikhq, "over the air" being broadcast terrestrially? 00:27:18 pikhq, no kidding? 00:27:19 Like, off-hand swearing puts me off-guard. 00:27:19 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 00:27:27 Sgeo: no kidding what? 00:27:32 Apparently the word "fuck" will corrupt a child's mind for all eternity. 00:27:39 As will seeing a nipple. 00:27:39 pikhq> I talk pretty much the same IRL as I do in person. So. 00:27:41 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:27:45 Sgeo: I'm pretty sure that's true. 00:27:49 Wait, that's what you get with *swearing*? 00:27:58 I'm more willing to swear online than in person 00:28:00 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 00:28:04 alise, hense why I said no kidding 00:28:09 but I certainly don't do it casually 00:28:10 Sgeo: Yeah. 00:28:13 Not everyone does. 00:28:16 People don't say "u" in person. 00:28:24 .... 00:28:31 * Phantom_Hoover once saw someone on TV Tropes express surprise that "sod" wasn't bleeped. 00:28:33 Read what it says again 00:28:41 oh 00:28:44 ha 00:28:49 *Sod*. It's like "damn" or "hell". 00:29:00 Sod damn it to hell. 00:29:15 ... Yes, I would actually have said "IRL" there if around people who would have known the acronym without even thinking of it. 00:29:22 yeah, me too 00:29:27 pikhq: lolll 00:29:32 read it again 00:29:37 carefully 00:29:40 alise: *Wow*. 00:29:51 I'm slow today. 00:29:54 :D 00:29:58 Wow at what? 00:30:02 I've complained about RL graphics before 00:30:03 I would have totally made that slip IRL, though. :P 00:30:51 hah 00:30:51 Do you say "eerc" at the start of sentences? 00:31:04 Phantom_Hoover: ? 00:31:05 Yeerk? 00:31:25 "IIRC" funeticly. 00:32:24 Anyways. TV ratings in the US are: Y, Y7, Y7-FV, G, PG, 14, MA. "Young", "Young, 7+", "Young, 7+, with Fantasy Violence", "General audience", "Parental Guidance suggested", "14+", "17+". 00:32:25 I say "if I recall correctly" ... 00:32:39 "Fantasy violence"? 00:32:54 I think fantasy violence is hitting a pirate with a frying pan 00:32:56 "Orc blood is clearly more scarring than man blood". 00:33:02 s/more/less/ 00:33:19 Phantom_Hoover : That's why Klingons had pink blood in Star Trek VI 00:33:21 No, no, no. "Looney Tunes is clearly more scarring than Barney." 00:33:27 s/scarring/delicious/ 00:33:41 I always wince slightly when people star out "hell" and "damn". 00:33:54 Phantom_Hoover: I consider "IIRC" as a logograph. 00:33:55 And get an impulse to hit the people who did it. 00:34:16 As a yuropian, I find weird the whole taboo on hell and damn 00:34:26 But well, our nations weren't founded by puritans 00:34:47 Although that probably doesn't mean much because Australia is even crazier in censorship 00:35:04 It should amuse you, though, to note that other than at the very low ranges of our ratings, violence is *perfectly* acceptable pretty much of the time. 00:35:09 Slereah, yes. You would have thought that criminals would be cool about that. 00:35:12 Phantom_Hoover, so are you going to censor me censoring d*mn? 00:35:25 s/d*mn/damn/ 00:35:33 Sgeo, I shall focus the Device on you. 00:35:52 A decapitation is better than an asscrack 00:36:01 Coördinates? 00:36:15 Phantom_Hoover : This isn't the 20's 00:36:17 Eh, an episode of The Nanny had an asscrack in it iirc 00:36:18 No diaresis 00:36:30 alise, look what Slereah said 00:36:31 Make the film a gigantic shootout? PG! Add a nipple? R! Add a suggestion of someone having sex outside of the missionary position? BANNED! 00:36:49 Nooooo, not the nipple! 00:37:11 Which is strange, because babies see nipples all the time 00:37:15 They eat from them! 00:37:26 Slereah: The US has breast-feeding as a rarity. 00:37:32 So... No. 00:37:49 Slereah, dö nöt ïnsült thë dïärësïs. 00:38:00 Lovecraft used diaresis :3 00:38:05 Like 00:38:07 Aroport 00:38:23 Dïärësës. 00:38:33 * Phantom_Hoover loves the compose key. 00:38:54 Phantom_Hoover : That's why Klingons had pink blood in Star Trek VI 00:38:55 Really? 00:39:07 VI is 6, so good. 00:39:18 Yeah. 00:39:24 In other episodes, it's red 00:39:35 But they had to change it for rating purpose, IIRC 00:39:38 Phantom_Hoover : This isn't the 20's No diaresis 00:39:40 :( 00:39:50 Eh, an episode of The Nanny had an asscrack in it iirc <-- And you'd know, because you watched VERY CLOSELY. 00:40:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, The Undiscovered Country was great. 00:40:15 Slereah: The US has breast-feeding as a rarity. 00:40:15 So... No. 00:40:29 Whaaaa? 00:40:30 pikhq, you're kidding. 00:40:42 You have a total taboo on breastfeeding? 00:40:48 Not breastfeeding is considerd severely irresponsible in the UK. 00:41:02 pikhq, America is now disqualified from the world. 00:41:05 -!- cheater99 has joined. 00:41:24 * coppro prepares to seal the IB 00:41:27 Well, of course there would be one. 00:41:30 Has anyone seen Star Trek (2009)? 00:41:37 It involves showing babies BREASTS. 00:41:38 yes 00:41:40 alise, yes 00:41:42 coppro: International Baccalaureate? 00:41:47 alise: International Boundary 00:41:52 Phantom_Hoover: coppro: Is it any good> 00:41:53 It is the only one I have seen 00:41:54 *good? 00:41:55 IE that big curved line 00:41:56 alise, yes. 00:42:01 alise: worth watching 00:42:01 alise : Yes 00:42:03 Phantom_Hoover: Presumably you've seen other Trek series, though. 00:42:07 Nope. 00:42:10 Phantom_Hoover: Wha?! 00:42:15 The thing I most remember from Star Trek XI is 00:42:29 I've seen all the ST movies except 6 00:42:32 Phantom_Hoover: Prescription: The Next Generation. Yes, all of it. Well. You can skip everything with beardless Riker and Wesley. 00:42:33 Phantom_Hoover: Not a taboo, but baby formula is the norm. 00:42:36 At one point, they send on a mission Sulu, Kirk, and some guy in a red suit 00:42:36 By far the norm. 00:42:38 Now shoo, go watch it. 00:42:40 And I thought 00:42:40 pikhq: That's crazy. 00:42:43 "Red guy is gonna die" 00:42:45 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:42:48 alise, it was never on, so I never watched it. 00:42:50 alise: Yes, it is. 00:42:51 Slereah: And he did, don't spoil it. :P 00:43:01 alise : It's really not a spoiler 00:43:06 I mean, it's Star Trek 00:43:07 Phantom_Hoover: Virgin 1 show TNG, DS9 and Voyager every day... :P 00:43:11 Slereah: True dat 00:43:14 Red suits die if they go on a mission 00:43:21 I've seen all the ST movies except 6 00:43:22 watch it 00:43:23 it's very good 00:43:27 alise: I know that I should 00:43:28 Slereah, red SHIRTS. 00:43:30 (it's the only Trek film I've seen) 00:43:42 alise : Watch Star Trek 4 and 8 00:43:44 They're the best 00:43:56 8 is First Contact? 00:44:01 Yes. 00:44:06 yeah 00:44:09 defs watch 00:44:27 We all know the formula, right? 00:44:29 That's recorded on the Sky+ box downstairs. 00:44:33 Phantom_Hoover: Only works if you add Galaxy Quest. 00:44:35 do not watch 5 except under duress 00:44:35 http://qntm.org/odd 00:44:40 alise, I know. 00:44:44 to get Nemesis and (2009) correct 00:44:50 trekGoodness :: Int -> Bool 00:44:53 Galaxy Quest is also p. good 00:44:54 Which one's 5? 00:45:03 Sgeo: The Final Frontier 00:45:04 5 is the one considered bad 00:45:07 I liked it, though 00:45:13 Shatner wrote The Final Frontier. 00:45:20 Pretty sure Shatner is a fucking terrible writer. 00:45:20 trekGoodness no = if no `mod` 2 == 1 then True else False 00:45:25 Phantom_Hoover: ... 00:45:31 trekGoodness = even 00:45:36 Phantom_Hoover: also: 00:45:37 Phantom_Hoover : what about 10 00:45:39 I know. 00:45:40 Phantom_Hoover: "if x then True else False" 00:45:52 Slereah: Galaxy Quest must be counted as #10 00:45:55 alise, cut me some slack! 00:45:58 I almost wrote code like that recently 00:45:59 Clever. 00:46:07 then it's #11: Nemesis, bad, #12: (2009), good 00:46:20 Sgeo, I wrote in in like 5 seconds in a tiny single line IRC box. 00:46:38 It was never going to be best practice. 00:46:45 It annoys me to no end that the HDTV is downstairs. >_> 00:46:56 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I wrote lists in cpp on an /iPhone/ in a mental institution. 00:47:01 Phantom_Hoover: I cut no slack :P 00:47:08 On one line, too. In IRC. 00:47:15 alise, well, you're God. 00:47:19 alise, pssh. 00:47:40 I once wrote a full kernel by whistling down a phone! 00:47:41 http://www.littlespikeyland.com/st_odd_even.php 00:47:43 "Therefore we can be 99% confident that the odd and even films represent two different classes of films, with the even films being the "better" of the two sets." 00:47:47 Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Joybubbles. 00:47:50 Sgeo: I love having worshippers. 00:48:07 (totally cheating though, that analysis) 00:48:24 Okay, more Trek opinions needed: 00:48:30 Enterprise: good series, bad series? 00:49:07 Aren't Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock connected? Or is it some other two movies that are connected? 00:49:19 2-4 are all direct sequels 00:49:27 * Phantom_Hoover needs to sleep 00:49:32 LESS FILIMING MORE RATING SERIESING 00:49:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:49:55 alise, afaik, Enterprise is widely hated 00:50:00 Never saw an episode myself though 00:50:04 it's pretty bad 00:50:10 Okay. 00:50:15 You know 00:50:25 I didn't care for the Wrath of Khan all that much 00:50:31 Deep Space Nine: good series, bad series? 00:50:45 DS9 has good and bad in it 00:50:49 I mean, I love Ricardo Montalban 00:50:51 But well 00:50:53 not as wildly varying as voyager 00:50:56 and on average better 00:51:07 That was a litmus test, I despise DS9. :P 00:51:16 You know what's terrible, though? 00:51:19 Okay, it's /saner/ than Voyager, but... 00:51:21 The animated series. 00:51:21 It's so fucking boring! 00:51:33 The animated series is all that's bad about Star Trek. 00:51:35 Slereah: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061122013747/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0c/KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg/292px-KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg 00:51:54 Wasn't the holodeck introduced in the animated series? 00:52:01 The "rec room" was. 00:52:02 on the whole, I'd say DS9 > VOY 00:52:09 Maybe, iunno 00:52:10 But really, TNG is the one that really defined the holodeck. 00:52:24 The only thing that I regret is that M'ress was only in the animated series 00:52:29 coppro: If you have an attention span the length of ... something long. 00:52:48 Slereah: Furrrrryyyyy 00:52:53 alise, broken link 00:52:57 http://mimg.ugo.com/200901/14973/mress.jpg 00:52:57 :3 00:53:00 I'd hit it. 00:53:00 Sgeo: Is not 00:53:08 coppro: * > VOY 00:53:20 pikhq: Nonono, Voyager has great merit because it's fucking hilarious, always. 00:53:23 Even watching Threshold is great. 00:53:38 alise: I'm afraid I find myself groaning instead. 00:53:59 Slereah: The animated series had some good moments. And a lot of corny moments. 00:54:06 Yeah. 00:54:17 I think the most telling episode is the one where they go into a universe 00:54:20 Where there's MAGIC 00:54:21 Basically, though, it's TOS with worse production values. 00:54:29 I don't like TOS much. 00:54:29 And Spock has to do a spell 00:54:36 I don't think Roddenberry was a very good writer, I have to admit. 00:54:36 (if such a thing was possible) 00:54:42 Too idealistic. 00:54:50 I love TNG. 00:54:51 alise: TOS, again, has its moments and a lot of corn. 00:54:56 My favorite episodes are the time travel episodes 00:54:59 TNG is absolutely amazing. 00:55:01 That's why I loved 4 and 8 00:55:08 There's a digital remaster thing of TOS airing on one of the CBS channels over here. 00:55:11 It's awful. 00:55:13 Well, TNG also had stupid episodes 00:55:16 You can't digitally remaster cardboard. 00:55:19 It just feels still and ... weird. 00:55:20 Like the one where they all become children 00:55:35 Yes, but TOS had more stupid episodes than good ones. 00:55:43 TNG is as good as Trek gets. 00:55:47 And the good ones are, themselves, filled with a lot of corn. 00:55:48 Which is "a bit above mediocre". 00:56:07 But, most sci-fi you see is "almost unbearable crap". 00:56:08 Plus, it has Data <3 00:56:11 So TNG is very good. 00:56:24 I'm with Slereah 00:56:44 * alise tries to find a nice Data quote to mark the mention of his name 00:57:07 "One is my name, and the other isn't." 00:57:20 * alise looks for a script 00:57:24 Yay, a script. 00:58:15 Lot of _anythng_ is crap. 00:58:20 *anything 00:58:36 O'Brien: We're all going to be burning the midnight oil on this one. / Data: That would be inadvisable. If you attempt to ignite a petroleum product on this ship at zero-hundred hours, it will activate the fire suppression system, which will seal off this entire compartment. / [...] / Data: Ah. Then "to burn the midnight oil" implies late work? 00:58:41 Soon after: 00:58:57 Data: This will require a completely new field induction subprocessor. It appears that we will be required to... ignite the midnight petroleum, sir. 00:59:24 Data would have been a much better character if the Trek writers had any sense of what an emotionless, rational, but still human-intelligence robot would be like :P 00:59:29 Which is, uh 00:59:32 More tautological than I intended. 00:59:39 Ilari: Yes, but more bad sci-fi gets published/etc. 00:59:53 alise : Iunno 01:00:05 He would not have been as endearing if he actually had no emotions 01:00:25 True... 01:00:28 But still. 01:00:34 Sometimes he's not very logical ... at all. 01:00:45 In fact come to think of it he's basically a Vulcan who talks weird. 01:01:26 And Vulcans themselves are not exactly logical. 01:01:27 Well, most of the TNG cast was just TOS with different actors 01:01:50 I consider their claims of this to just be religious assertations. 01:01:56 Erm, claims. 01:02:00 pikhq: One thing I've always been uneasy about: canon states they learned to "suppress" emotions. 01:02:01 Assertions. 01:02:05 So they still have all these emotions, they just ... bottle them up? 01:02:09 That's gotta be really unhealthy. 01:02:19 Slereah: Picard was a way better captain than Kirk though 01:02:26 That's why the Vulkan in Star Trek 5 was all crazy 01:02:35 He just lets out his emotions, and BAM! 01:02:37 "Vulkan" 01:02:46 Fifty years of bottled emotions come out 01:02:52 pikhq: BTW, the quality of that cleaned-up TNG rip is pretty good. 01:03:02 pikhq: It's still... very soft, you know, but that's just how it was filmed. 01:03:10 No artifacts or anything. 01:03:55 Anyway, TNG from season 2 onwards is good. Preferably without Wesley. Definitely not anywhere where Wesley saves the day. 01:04:06 Wesley is the worst 01:04:13 With his faggy rainbow sweater 01:04:27 Even Wil Wheaton hated Wesley. 01:04:33 I liked The Game 01:04:38 Sgeo: FUCK YOU 01:04:45 ^ Example of the correct use of profanity. 01:04:46 But then again, I haven't seen that many Wesley saves the day eps, so 01:05:07 "The Game" 01:05:14 Oh 01:05:20 Well, thank you very much 01:05:28 Wesley was by far the worse character on TNG. 01:05:49 Didn't Wesley do something that got someone killed? 01:05:59 God damned Gene Wesley Roddenberry. 01:06:07 Yeah: being that annoying can kill. 01:06:19 Fun fact: I thought Chekov was French. 01:06:20 No joke. 01:06:32 Nuclearrr wessels 01:06:32 He was such a smooth Frenchman, too, right up until I realised his name was "Chekov". 01:06:36 Hah. 01:06:56 Well, it's not like they could actually get a *Russian* to do the role. 01:07:01 I mean, Cold War and all. 01:07:13 But that was the point of Star Trek :o 01:07:22 To present a perfect future where everyone is at peace 01:07:25 Except aliens 01:07:27 Fuck aliens 01:07:50 Heh, an American played Chekov in (2009), too. 01:07:50 Don't mind if I do! 01:07:53 XD 01:08:25 'Some of Wesley's The Wesley-ness is accidental: Six scripts had been drafted for the "Wesley saves the day" plot, with the intention that the best elements of each would be combined to make one character-focus episode on Wesley — none of them were especially good, but it was hoped that there would be enough good material between them to make a single episode. A writer's strike dried up the supply of scripts for the first season, so all six d 01:08:27 Sgeo: Which aliens are we talkking about here? 01:08:32 *groan* 01:08:40 pikhq: "all six d--" but I get the jist. Ha. 01:08:49 *gist 01:09:25 Sgeo: *talking 01:09:45 '[...] so all six drafts were completed and produced, at which point Wesley's characterization was firmly entrenched. ' 01:10:33 So wouldn't that make that badness just a season 1 thing? 01:10:55 No, because Wesley continued being Wesley until he left. 01:12:09 No, that just made Season 1 all the worse. 01:13:04 Even non-Wesley, bearded-Riker episodes can be really bad. e.g. Sub Rosa. 01:14:53 Yeah, but a Wesley episode is instabad. As is babyface Riker. 01:15:18 Maybe eliminating Deanna-focused episodes would trim it down to almost universally good. 01:15:58 Ugh, Troi. 01:16:06 The character who had *no reason to exist*. 01:16:12 Sub Rosa was Troi-focused, for instance. 01:16:34 Why the hell would you need a *counselor* on the bridge at all times? 01:17:02 Picard: Computer, what day is it? 01:17:02 Computer: The first day of the rest of your life. 01:17:02 Picard: GRRRRR.... 01:17:02 Troi: It's Stardate 47988, Captain. 01:17:02 Picard: *Thank* you, Counsellor. At last your genius for stating the obvious has come in useful. 01:17:03 --Five-Minute "All Good Things..." 01:17:06 And she didn't even... Counsel. 01:17:25 (Note: Worf is the one who actually says it in the episode. :P) 01:18:22 [[Picard: Yes... yes, of course. It's all coming back now. I'm readjusting to this time -- 01:18:22 Picard: -- period. Dammit! 01:18:23 Yar: I'm sorry, sir, I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you swearing about punctuation or feminine problems? 01:18:23 Picard: Tasha! You're alive! 01:18:23 Yar: Um... that's correct, sir. 01:18:24 Picard: At last. I've always wanted to tell you how much I miss -- 01:18:26 Picard: -- your presence on the bridge. 01:18:30 Troi: It is? Really? Oh, Captain, you remembered my birthday! I'll go get it right away! 01:18:32 Picard: This had better be the last time we do that gag.]] 01:18:34 Oh, dammit, I'll end up quoting the entire thing again if I don't stop. 01:18:36 Here: http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/fiver.php?ep=allgoodthings 01:18:42 It's more like twenty-minute "All Good Things...", though. 01:18:49 Wasn't she useful in Encounter at Farpoint? 01:18:58 [Note: I've only seen a part of that ep] 01:19:07 Whenever counselling was done in TNG, it was *Guinan*... 01:19:09 *groan* 01:19:12 "-- your presence on the bridge" -> "your present's on the bridge" has to be the cheesiest thing I've ever seen. 01:19:28 alise, I didn't even notice that >.> 01:19:33 It took me a while. 01:19:58 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:20:04 Sgeo: You may forget all parts of Encounter at Farpoint which did not have Q. 01:20:15 Dammit Libertine's Q is hot. 01:20:18 Qu Qu Qu Qu 01:25:19 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 01:25:41 Fun fact: "Te'arl grayaucht" means "[Colour of tea] bitter water" in Picardian. 01:26:12 pikhq: Is "bloody" bleeped on US TV? 01:27:16 No, afaik, but I've never heard it used 01:27:23 It's a very British word 01:27:40 Indeed; Scotty says it in an episode of TNG, at least, which was broadcast on US TV, obviously. 01:27:58 Bloody and naff are the greatest British English-only words there are. 01:28:46 It occurs to be that bloody not used in that context isn't particularly British 01:29:21 Well, that meaning. 01:34:59 alise: I actually use "bloody" all the time. 01:35:28 I don't even know what "naff" means though, so *eh* 01:35:42 Naff is ... rubbish, in a way, but more British. 01:35:59 Like "supremely mediocre" if it was an active badness rather than a passive... middleness. 01:36:03 Ineffectual. 01:36:03 "Rubbish" is already pretty British. 01:36:11 Yes, but even more British. 01:36:45 If you look at a new language that's almost exactly like Python or whatever, just cleaned up slightly and with some boring new features, and it makes you go "bleh" and "meh" and "feh" when looking at it... if it's not terrible, it's naff. 01:36:49 Apparently in (certain parts of) Canada they use "litter" to mean what Americans mean when they say "garbage" and what Brits mean when they say "rubbish", rather than what either of us mean when we say "litter". 01:37:08 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/naff#Adjective 01:39:27 narf? 01:39:46 "Narf?"? 01:40:08 * Sgeo knows 1 TV show that alise has never heard of 01:40:42 Oh, Pinky and the Brain. 01:40:49 I just didn't recognise the reference. Yes, of course I know of Pinky and the Brain. 02:00:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:08:49 alise subscribe: Chat do: [ :ann | self say: ann text ]. 02:09:58 Feh. 02:28:02 pikhq: In contrast to the US' cursing conservatism, the word "bollocks" was deemed to be acceptable in "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols". 02:28:07 (in the UK, of course) 02:30:24 "Bollocks" is acceptable on TV at any time here :P 02:30:29 Since it's, like, not even a word here. 02:31:05 Bollocks to that. 02:31:20 It's quite offensive here. 02:31:40 "logorrhoea" is actually a term, AWESOME 02:35:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight! ;; "fuck" broadcast on US TV in 1978 02:42:09 alise: I've seen "bloody" rated Y. 02:42:49 And I do use "bloody". 02:43:00 I was aware of "naff" but never used it myself. 02:43:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight! ;; "fuck" broadcast on US TV in 1978 02:43:27 ANSWER THIS 02:43:37 Predates FCC obscenity rules! 02:43:40 why does floating point use a binary exponent? why not use something like 10 or 16? 02:43:48 pikhq: But Carlin said you couldn't say "fuck" beforehand! 02:43:53 calamari: cuz computers use binary. 02:44:09 alise: duh.. not really an answer 02:44:12 :) 02:44:13 Yes. Sometime after he made that joke, *they decided to use that list*. 02:44:32 calamari: well 16 is equivalent to binary for this purpose 02:44:36 * Sgeo still doesn't know the recommended way to do callback stuff in Squeak 02:44:47 oerjan: not really.. 16 gives a larger range 02:45:04 When he had started making that joke, there were no country-wide regulations on it... 02:45:30 And he was sometimes arrested *for giving that joke*... 02:45:31 calamari: but you'd get less precision for numbers of the form 1. ... * 16^n 02:45:46 would you? 02:46:00 i suggest we use base 1 for the exponent 02:46:04 that's the best of all worlds, really 02:46:19 alise: *Oh god*. The FCC settled on that list because Carlin's routine was put on the radio and a *single person* was offended that his son heard such filth. 02:47:13 Single person that complained, you mean 02:47:23 Well, yes. 02:48:04 Anyways. Because of this mess, all live broadcasts in the US are actually on a delay so they can bleep. 02:48:29 (ever since the nipple-slip and Bono saying "fuck" on live TV...) 02:48:56 oh no 02:49:02 calamari: the mantissa would have to be 1 <= m < 16, if you then have a fixed number of bits after the point then the higher numbers would have less precision compared to in binary. 02:49:10 er 02:49:14 the lower numbers 02:49:17 coppro becomeForward: nil. 02:50:09 oerjan: I guess I'm confused then 02:50:33 pikhq: Last Christmas, when the whole "X-Factor (music reality show thing here) contestant winner" vs "really old Rage Against the Machine single" battle for the Christmas #1 space on the charts was ongoing (this actually happened, I am not shitting you: Rage Against the Machine won!), Rage Against the Machine were asked to play the song live on radio; it ends with a succession of lines that use the word "fuck" rather a lot. This was in the day time; they h 02:50:33 ad been asked ... not to include that part. They included it. All that happened was a fadeout and the presenters going "Bad band! Bad!". What would the reaction in the US be? Nuclear fallout? 02:50:38 I was trying to change floating point so that I could have 8 digits of decimal precision in 32 bits 02:51:21 I wasn't able to do it until I change it from 2^x to 10^x 02:51:33 * Sgeo attempts assassination of everyone in #squeak 02:51:43 alise: Fines, fines, more fines, and a possible loss of broadcasting license. 02:51:53 Also, in the news, nuclear fallout. 02:51:58 Actually, I may have killed everyone on IRC 02:52:03 nope 02:52:07 * calamari lives! 02:52:21 We fucking remember someone's nipple being shown on TV for a few seconds, for crissake... 02:52:29 Sorry, frames. 02:52:50 Stupid nipple decoration thingy 02:52:50 Erm 02:53:32 anyhow.. it seems like I can leave 28 bits for the number and 4 bits for placing the decimal point, and I should be able to represent positive and negative numbers from .00000001 to 99999999. 02:53:39 calamari: well 10^x doesn't really make sense unless you use decimal for the mantissa part too 02:54:51 alise: Oh, yes, the censorship also applies to radio. 02:55:16 alise: Music on the radio ends up either having the cursing removed from the voice track in the for-radio mix or a bleep. 02:56:23 oerjan: I guess that could be 1 bit for sign, 4 bits for decimal place, 27 bits for number. how can I translate that into a 2^x? 02:56:42 * Sgeo attempts assassination of everyone in #squeak <-- What did they do this time? 02:56:45 with only 4 bits of 2^x, I can't make big numbers 02:56:50 alise, nothing 02:56:57 Except assist me 02:57:07 Chatter allInstancesDo: [ :chatter | chatter becomeForward: nil ]. 02:57:07 best to do "String new" just in case become: or becomeForward: is two-way 02:57:19 Randal Schwartz! 02:57:20 he's cool 02:57:28 & quite famous 02:57:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_L._Schwartz 02:57:59 popularised "Just another Perl hacker,", invented the Schwartzian transform 02:58:07 sued by Oregon :P 02:58:22 co-author of the camel book, Programming Perl 02:58:23 etc. 02:58:27 (and now Squeaker ofc) 02:58:28 * oerjan doesn't really know floating point beyond that it's m*2^x with presumably fixed no. of bits for each of m and x 02:58:50 oerjan: that's it, basically 02:59:03 I cannot even fathom why Comedy Central does the bleeping. 02:59:27 (keep in mind they air South Park. Which used to have the record for instances of fuck per minute.) 02:59:36 It hits the fan? 03:00:01 I think they used the word "shit" either 0 or 1 times in that ep. I think 03:00:05 Or maybe a lot 03:00:07 I have no idea 03:00:16 "0, 1, or a lot" 03:00:18 Sgeo: The movie. 03:00:36 alise, well, that does exclude 2 or 3 03:00:43 Still has record for instances of fuck in an animated film. 03:01:03 (it lost the record for total to a documentary on the word.) 03:01:31 !haskell 9*2*10^8 03:01:41 !smalltalk 03:01:44 1800000000 03:01:51 !smalltalk Transcript show: 'Hi!'. 03:01:53 !python 1+2 03:01:56 Mmkay. "It Hits The Fan" had 162 instances of shit. 03:01:56 aww 03:01:58 !haskell 2^32 03:01:59 4294967296 03:02:01 !help 03:02:01 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 03:02:10 !help languages 03:02:11 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 03:02:11 A counter runs in the episode. 03:02:14 calamari: well there _should_ be room in there, somehow :D 03:02:43 oerjan: yeah somehow the 2^x wastes it whereas my non-standard representation fits it 03:02:53 Sgeo: maybe you didn't notice because it was bleeped? 03:03:05 coppro, I never saw the ep 03:03:18 calamari: i suspect those 8-digit calculators use decimal internally, anyway 03:03:24 Just vaguely knew the name, and that it was related to the word "shit" 03:03:30 And something about a subversion? 03:03:56 Okay, what about this floating point structure: 03:04:02 some of the floating point is dedicated to /specifying the base/ 03:04:06 i.e. we have (mantissa, base, exponent) 03:04:13 LOL 03:04:18 presumably base is quite small, mantissa is quite big, and exponent is medium 03:04:18 this is going to be cool 03:04:25 calamari: yeah /that/ would be awesome :D 03:04:50 actually ... that sounds like a good idea 03:04:54 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:04:56 Quick, someone tell me why it sucks. 03:05:16 well until you try to do arithmetic with two numbers of different bases 03:05:23 oerjan: well there is a decimal32 sstandard but it only gives 7 digits of precision 03:05:28 calamari: use hackego for python 03:05:37 alise: how is it stored? Binary Coded BASEN? 03:05:46 `help 03:05:46 coppro: just binary 03:05:53 ok 03:05:56 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 03:06:01 coppro: we store (m,b,e) for m * b^e in binary 03:06:10 ok 03:06:19 don't forget a sign bit 03:06:27 *(s,b,e) 03:06:28 coppro: yes 03:06:34 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 03:06:38 (+-,s,b,e) for +-(m * b^e) 03:06:50 hmm 03:06:53 in IEEE 03:07:09 we have s:24b 03:07:21 !haskell 2^32 / (9*2*10^8) 03:07:22 2.386092942222222 03:07:23 which leaves 7b for exponent 03:08:05 * Sgeo wonders if he should try VisualWorks 03:08:17 calamari: there is so little extra room that you need to pack tightly, a decimal standard would probably use some way that made it easy to get at the decimal digits, using too much room 03:08:27 so for 64-bit, we have s:48.77b; taking that as 48, we have 15b left for the exponent 03:08:58 now let's say we take away 6 bits from the exponent, leaving there be 9b for the exponent 03:09:03 these 6 bits are the base 03:09:21 say if it uses 4 bits per digit, then you get just 8 and 1 is probably for exponent 03:09:54 oerjan: yeah I figured out for an old 8 digit calculator screen it can represent 1255333573 different values, requiring 30.2254, or 31 bits 03:10:19 well 03:10:20 that's with the negative sign eating a digit 03:10:21 that gives us (2^48 - 1) * 61^511 maximum 03:10:30 oh wait the exponent is signed 03:10:37 well, whatever, it's a big number 03:10:45 oerjan: any flaws to this representation? apart from difficult arithmetic :P 03:11:24 alise: well there will probably be some numbers with multiple representations 03:11:49 meh, who cares :D 03:12:29 Hm 03:12:49 Apparently, it will take about an hour for VW to install 03:13:14 When I think "more professional than Squeak/Pharo", I was kind of hoping that that wouldn't include the customary IDE slowness 03:13:21 And install slowness 03:13:27 Sgeo: VisualWorks sucks. 03:13:35 Pharo is professional enough. 03:13:40 alise, besides being proprietary, howso? 03:13:51 It just does :P 03:14:04 They came up with the Announcements framework, which I _will_ be using in my AW SDK bindings 03:15:44 Well, we seem to have done 20min in the space of 2min 03:15:47 So that's a good sign 03:19:22 no, that's a sign of bad time dilation. we might be falling into a black hole! 03:23:20 EsotericChannel subscribe: Chat do: [:ann | ann chatter becomeForward: nil ]. "MUAHAHAHA! ANYONE SPEAKS, THEY DIE!" 03:24:30 what are you talAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa 03:28:29 It's now stuck at 8 sec remaining 03:28:31 * Sgeo dies 03:31:29 Brains 03:38:53 Does anyone here play Battle for Wesnoth? My friend and I would like to find a group to play in. 03:44:06 I tried it once or twice, I think 03:44:17 Love the music, esp. The Dangerous Symphony 03:46:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:46:46 Warrigal: Well ... AnMaster. 03:46:57 Warrigal: So yeah, nobody. 03:47:01 :P 03:47:11 Sgeo: I don't suppose you're up for a game right now? 03:47:22 No :/ 03:47:32 Need to eat and sleep soon 03:53:17 Gregor: in case you hasn't already found this http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ 03:53:49 I had not. 03:53:51 Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. 04:10:36 How does one configure the web browser XChat opens links in? 04:12:57 Can Hackiki do Smalltalk? 04:13:36 Can my toaster do Smalltalk???? 04:14:06 (Toaster new) insert: myToast; toast. 04:14:25 Hmm, maybe that should be add: 04:14:46 I'm glad Sgeo is finally growing taste in languages. It's like watching a wittle baby gwow up! >_> 04:14:56 Next you'll discover Lisp. 04:15:56 Lisp is more implementation-dependent, and there are so many, than Smalltalk! 04:17:06 Sgeo: Hackiki can do anything the system can do, however, most Smalltalk environment aren't exactly known for integrating well into their environment. GNU Smalltalk is the exception. 04:17:14 And GNU Smalltalk sucks. 04:17:17 Yup 04:17:23 Sgeo: Smalltalk is very implementation-dependent. 04:17:26 Less so now, but still pretty dependent. 04:17:32 Especially considering EVERYTHING IS INSIDE A VM IMAGE. 04:17:39 What's that you say? File outs? Hahahaha... 04:17:54 Monticello is gaining support for more systems, though, I gather. 04:18:02 Isn't the format for those defined by ANSI Smalltalk? 04:18:20 For fileouts? Yes. 04:18:27 Barely "portability", though, more like an export format. 04:18:49 I don't see how Monticello would help the portability issue, though :/ 04:19:16 Make it easier to bring incompatible code into various implementations? 04:19:53 Allow collaboration between people using different implementations. 04:20:05 That's assuming all the system classes are the same, which isn't such a reasonable assumption, but is getting better. 04:20:23 More to the point, though, nobody uses anything but VisualWorks and Squeak/Pharo, and nobody doing open-source stuff uses VisualWorks. 04:20:39 So it's not such a huge problem, considering the Smalltalk community has quite a bit of inertia (Pharo is long overdue) so it's unlikely to change. 04:20:57 You can trace Squeak's lineage directly back to Smalltalk-80. 04:23:17 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:24:51 How much of a chance do you think I have of getting other AW people to start using Smalltalk when I showcase the advantages? 04:25:50 They sound hideously stupid, so 0. 04:25:56 Especially since it's so ... different. 04:26:06 "It looks like a kid made it, and how do I save to a file?" 04:26:14 "What is this browser thing? Where do I type class {?" 04:26:53 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:26:59 alise, you never met another AW SDK programmer 04:28:02 Ah, Smalltalk. 04:28:21 Though I don't *use* it much, I must admit that it has much awesome. 04:28:45 * Sgeo still needs to get a grip on thisContext 04:29:02 Pity it almost inherently is its own completely seperate environment. 04:29:15 pikhq, that's what makes it so fun! 04:29:26 >.> 04:29:42 Of course, this just means that Smalltalk should run on bare hardware. 04:29:43 :) 04:29:59 Hmm. Doesn't static typing usually enable IDEs to be much smarter? 04:30:09 Yet Smalltalks are often known for their IDEness 04:31:26 You know what makes for a great IDE? Being able to edit everything at runtime. 04:32:12 Of course, this just means that Smalltalk should run on bare hardware. 04:32:14 as it did originally 04:32:28 alise: Quite. 04:39:58 -!- sshc has joined. 04:42:49 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:53:04 Hmm. Should I go back to horrifying the Europeans? 04:53:12 Yes. 04:53:20 http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/files/images/prison-bunk.jpg 04:53:25 We use INCHes here 04:53:26 American prison cell. 04:54:05 http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1000000/images/_1004547_uk_cell150.jpg 04:54:06 British 04:54:22 http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/swedish_prison_cell-300x203.jpg 04:54:23 pikhq: http://www.jabulela.com/files/media/norwegian-prison4.jpg Norwegian prison cell. 04:54:25 Swedish 04:54:28 ha 04:54:43 Gotta love Scandinavia. 04:54:54 i'm moving to sweden then stealing tons of shit 04:54:54 brb 04:54:57 :P 05:05:39 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 05:10:20 DIAERESISESERS 05:12:18 D ... aresis. 05:12:52 dïäëräësïs 05:16:21 pikhq: So how come movies get to say "fuck"? 05:17:37 alise: They aren't controlled by broadcast regulations 05:17:44 neither is cable tv 05:17:49 yet they still bleep curses 05:17:52 says pikhq 05:18:25 most cable stations are controlled by big networks, as I understand it 05:19:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:49 -!- augur has joined. 05:21:02 alise: Hysterical raisins. 05:21:22 ah. 05:21:25 fuck the us 05:22:17 Hm 05:22:24 HRM 05:22:29 I want Erlang-style concurrency without weird receive{} blocks 05:22:46 I have found no information on the Actor model in Smalltalk 05:22:55 Check the Haskell FAQ on lambdabot. 05:23:18 I know how the Actor model works in general... I think 05:24:24 Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu Q Q Q Q Qu Qu Qu Qu 05:24:27 pikhq: Why would that help him? 05:24:37 alise: Because Haskell Can Do That 05:24:38 :P 05:25:00 Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu “Indeed," said the Ambassador, “‘Qu’ does look appealing in this typeface.” 05:26:23 Sgeo: Why don't you want receive blocks? 05:29:09 I think encouraging someone to learn Smalltalk at the same time I'm teaching him C# might be a bad idea 05:30:07 Given select: = Where(), collect: = Select() 05:30:15 hah 05:37:00 You're not teaching him. (Probably. Unless you're a natural-born teacher, which I'm not sure exists.) 05:43:01 http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP/Deolalikar.pdf Serious attempt at P!=NP proof by a respected computer scientist at HP that has withstood some criticism so far, although nobody knows anything about whether it works or not, of course. 05:43:06 We need people here to look over it :-) 05:43:46 http://forums.activeworlds.com/showthread.php?p=128618#post128618 05:44:22 do: [ :ann | myInstance say: (ann name), ': ', (ann message).]. 05:44:23 remove first . 05:44:24 it is redundant 05:44:32 also 05:44:35 remove the ()s in the ,s 05:44:35 alise: I've looked at it, though not much. 05:44:46 do: [ :ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message ]. 05:44:56 pikhq: Any opinions? 05:45:06 alise, these people have probably never seen Smalltalk before 05:45:18 Just do it, I'm improving your Smalltalk. 05:45:22 Although that might be an argument for making it look cleaner 05:45:24 :| 05:45:28 And I know the precedent rules 05:46:15 It's about style, now do it >_> 05:46:20 It hurts my eyes as-is :P 05:46:49 Fixed 05:47:01 alise: Good God. 05:47:08 It's ok to have a constructor not use new, right? 05:47:16 pikhq: ? 05:47:28 Sgeo: It's stylistic not to. 05:47:37 Never thought an even plausible proof of that would float around. :P 05:47:44 "File named: ...", for instance, would be conventional. 05:47:53 Or perhaps "File withName: ...", if you're creating a file and not just reading it from disk. 05:49:00 Ah 05:50:57 I showed you a screenshot of MagsBot once 05:52:07 do: [ :ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message]. 05:52:13 either remove the spaces from the whole [...] block (preferable) 05:52:15 or put a space after message 05:52:16 I suggest 05:52:19 do: [:ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message]. 05:52:22 normally no spaces are added. 05:52:26 And YES this is important :| 05:53:16 Maybe I should add some comments 05:53:16 Sgeo: :|| 05:57:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:58:17 Or maybe I should eat my pizza and go to bed 05:58:43 It's 5:54. 05:58:45 I think likewise. 05:59:38 Oh, uh 05:59:50 My sample completely forgets everything required by the AW SDK 06:00:59 Fix it and fix it according to my suggestions :P 06:01:00 SLAVE 06:01:02 Anyway, goodnight. 06:01:02 Bye. 06:01:04 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:39:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:46:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:57:36 poll: what animal will Ubuntu 11.04 be? 06:59:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:59:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:00:18 Nyala? Nanger? 07:04:03 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames has that list of suggestions; I don't think they've picked one yet? 07:05:09 "Nagging Nag if more pop-up reminders are added to the desktop" -- I smell some bitterness. 07:05:42 Naughty Nymph 07:07:15 For some reason there seems to be quite many Naughty N's suggested. 07:07:25 "Naughty Nightelf -- just think about the artwork we could make" 07:07:48 I'm sure that'd promote Linux-on-desktop well. 07:08:43 Narwhal seems like a popular animal, too. 07:09:24 -!- tombom has joined. 07:09:33 -!- tombom has quit (Changing host). 07:09:33 -!- tombom has joined. 07:23:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 07:37:01 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:53:27 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:13:37 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:34:47 hmm, http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP.htm is interesting 08:34:54 it's a list of proofs of P=NP, and of P!=NP 08:35:09 heh 08:35:27 also, proofs that it's undecidable 08:35:29 and a few other things 08:35:45 it's gutsy that the guy published it publicly without perr review 08:35:47 *peer 08:36:28 "Proof by contradiction. Assume P=NP. Let y be a proof that P=NP. The proof y can be verified in polynomial time by a competent computer scientist, the existence of which we assert. However, since P=NP, the proof y can be generated in polynomial time by such computer scientists. Since this generation has not yet occurred (despite attempts by such computer scientists to produce a proof), we have a contradiction." 08:41:58 haha 08:42:43 perhaps it just has a really large constant factor? 08:44:33 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:14:16 -!- choochter has joined. 10:02:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:10:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:11:24 -!- augur has joined. 10:14:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:14:51 -!- augur has joined. 10:25:19 i left it way too late to chip in but i have a friend who thinks he may have an O(n^4) algorithm for turning NP into P 10:25:49 he's probably wrong 10:27:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:28:17 And "probably wrong" is very close to "provably wrong"; it has a Levenshtein distance of just one. 10:28:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:28:55 hmm, that gives a Levenshtein-1 proof of P!=NP, doesn't it? 10:34:46 [Equal]: In 2005, Dr. Joachim Mertz proved P=NP. His main contribution is a linear programming formulation of the TSP with O(n^5) variables and O(n^4) constraints. <-- weird... 11:16:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 11:22:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:34:31 /o/ 11:34:31 | 11:34:31 /`\ 11:34:42 fungot 11:34:43 Phantom_Hoover: i wish i knew where fix point combinators? :) fnord/ fnord/ babylonian cuneiform was just added in unicode 5.0, so few major lisps? ( networking and concurrency, despite my usual polemics i still think it's kind of hard 11:57:01 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 12:06:46 \m/ \m/ 12:06:53 \m/ \m/ 12:06:57 \m/ \m/ 12:07:02 \m/ \m/ 12:07:10 /m\ /m\ 12:07:13 ... 12:07:35 Oh hi 12:11:58 Sgeo, what are you doing? 12:12:47 Trying to trigger myndzi 12:12:53 /o/ 12:12:53 | 12:12:53 |\ 12:13:09 Also being frustrated at AW SDK's clinically insane model for callbacks 12:14:32 http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=SDK_Asynchronous_Operation 12:15:20 Note that when you call a blocking function synchroneously, it can trigger events and callbacks 12:15:36 I wish I were joking 12:16:08 I'm planning to use a Monitor to make the pain go away 12:21:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:22:11 I just remembered that some "events" in the AW SDK are actually callbacks, although not termed such 12:29:37 Sgeo: Are you sure your name isn't just too short? 12:29:42 \m/ \m/ 12:29:43 `\o/ 12:29:43 | 12:29:43 (_|`\ 12:29:43 |_) 12:30:12 \m/ \m/ 12:30:12 `\o/ 12:30:12 | 12:30:12 /`\ 12:30:12 (_| |_) 12:33:04 Narwhal seems like a popular animal, too. 12:33:14 duh, everyone from reddit would suggest that 12:33:57 it's gutsy that the guy published it publicly without perr review 12:34:38 it seems likely he didn't mean to, he was just sending it to other researchers to look through but the email got seriously out of hand 12:35:51 and someone _else_ put it on the web iiuc 12:39:05 * oerjan saw at least one reddit comment by someone who _had_ read it and was worried about one particular point in the proof, something claimed to be polynomial in size 12:39:27 Like someone said yesterday, in the context of embarrassing pictures: "don't worry: what happens on the internet, stays on the internet". 12:39:40 XD 12:41:18 wtf xkcd 12:43:10 oerjan: Not cool, not funny, not a good comic? 12:43:34 just wtf :D 12:45:40 -!- fruitbag` has joined. 12:45:54 Would it be possible to device a quicksort algorithm in Brainfuck? 12:46:03 fruitbag`, probably 12:46:11 You'd go mad in the process, though. 12:46:12 as long as you don't interpret "quick" too literally :D 12:47:07 fruitbag`, the complete lack of anything approaching a function call would be a significant barrier. 12:47:23 hm, given the cost of moving around in brainfuck, might not bubble sort really be optimal for it? 12:48:08 oerjan, *everything* has a huge cost in BF. 12:48:27 well i mean asymptotically 12:48:35 Well, possibly 12:48:44 Swapping would have a pretty high cost. 12:48:44 actually, I don't think quicksort would be too difficult in BF 12:48:47 since you have to move across things, you can just as well swap while you're doing it 12:50:54 Mezzacotta seems to be on a good run at the moment... 12:51:42 * oerjan didn't notice anything particularly good today, although he always gives the mad scientists at least 50% 12:54:41 Well, "good" in the sense of "fairly coherent". 12:56:12 mooz has written a pretty nice quicksort in Befunge-93; even if it's a bit limited due to the 80x25 playfield. Admittedly that is a far more expressive and less-painful-to-write language. 12:57:19 You can find it nicely syntax-highlighted at http://web.archive.org/web/20061205193036/kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/qsort.html courtesy of archive.org. 12:59:40 I guess it is Funge98-compatible in the sense that it can sort more data in a system like that. 13:03:22 Dear Monitor: FUCK YOU 13:04:01 So, how would I do an equivalent to a for loop in BF? 13:04:25 fruitbag`, set a cell as a counter, then decrement in []s. 13:04:59 Well, that's not a C-style for loop. 13:05:39 Counting down to 0 is usually easier, though. 13:06:21 * Sgeo curses at http://pastebin.com/LDyEkQpa 13:06:31 (Easier than up, with a test at the end, I mean.) 13:06:57 Brainfuck + lambda calculus. It must be done. 13:09:30 fruitbag`, there are a few high-level to BF compilers, but they're underdeveloped. 13:11:17 Anyone want to help me? 13:11:58 Sgeo, what language? 13:12:05 Smalltalk 13:12:16 Then I cannot help. 13:14:04 Where you are going, I will not follow. 13:14:59 Befunge-93 is such a queer language 13:15:21 fruitbag`, queer in the Enid Blyton sense? 13:17:25 Indeed 13:17:34 August would be another word 13:18:19 There are stranger languages out there. 13:18:34 Including ones that the inventors themselves don't understand. 13:18:57 is that a Feather reference? 13:19:22 Indeed. 13:21:37 I am tempted to shamelessly self-advertise the befunge-bot to yet another new victim. 13:21:51 fungot, tell fruitbag` about yourself 13:21:51 Phantom_Hoover: it's your only potential competitor and there's no javascript or anything. they make 13:22:05 ^source 13:22:05 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 13:22:26 Phantom_Hoover: Good, now I don't have to do that myself. 13:22:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:22:39 (And it is true what e says: there's no javascript or anything.) 13:32:53 Fascinating stuff 13:33:20 The statement '[-]' decrements the value at a point until zero, right? 13:34:34 -!- jix has joined. 13:34:38 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 13:35:03 yep 13:35:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:35:12 -!- jix has joined. 13:36:40 * Sgeo growls 13:36:55 Monitor is reentrant. Apparently I want a non-reentrant Monitor 13:40:46 fruitbag`, [->+] is the basic copying algorithm. 13:41:18 s/copying/moving/ 13:41:32 * Sgeo decides that Phantom_Hoover is as sleep deprived as I am 13:41:48 Sgeo, no, not really. 13:42:08 I had a fairly good night's sleep last night. 13:42:23 How, exactly, is that supposed to go back to the old cell to copy more than 1? 13:42:43 Sgeo, oops. 13:42:52 fruitbag`, ignore everything I say from now on. 13:46:30 -!- fruitbag has joined. 13:48:40 -!- fruitbag` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:36 Sorry, Phantom_Hoover... 14:17:46 Why...? 14:17:47 I wasn't ignoring you 14:17:59 Something came up and I was AFK 14:18:13 You were supposed to ignore me! 14:18:28 Alright, so you raised the question of moving a byte from one cell to another 14:18:36 What is the general algorithm? 14:18:45 Yeah, there needed to be a < at the end of the loop. 14:19:04 Uh, [->+<], I think. 14:20:29 - was decrement that pointer or memory cell? 14:20:42 That is, decrement contents or pointer? 14:21:00 Brainfuck doesn't have pointers. 14:21:06 Of course 14:21:21 What I meant was the region being pointed 14:21:47 - decrements the cell under the tape head. 14:25:01 It is a bit annoying that it kills the old value, though. Actually copying a cell tends to involve something uglier like [>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-] and need a spare cell there. 14:26:04 Yes, that makes sense 14:26:25 Bascially, we are decrementing the contents from one cell and incrementing by the same amount in another 14:26:30 Until the source cell is zero 14:29:07 Suppse that I wanted to traverse eight consequtive cells... 14:29:37 >>>>>>>>, in essence. 14:29:40 Another sometimes useful construction is >[-]+<[>-<]>[xxx-]<; that does xxx if current cell (at start) is zero; it's basically [xxx[-]] except the test is negated. 14:30:22 Whoops, that [>-<] should be [>-<[-]] there. 14:30:59 It also looks like an angry horizontal-smiley. 14:31:54 (Away; getting from work to home now.) 14:39:35 Alright, so let me get this straight.... 14:42:01 But, man -- wouldn't that decrememnt the contents of each consequtive cell by one? 14:43:10 * Phantom_Hoover prefers functional esolangs for this very reason 14:44:34 fruitbag, are you talking about fizzie's construction? 14:46:37 It sets the cell being tested to 0 and the next one to 0 or 1; the xxx can have its own side-effects. 14:51:30 Alright, so how do we incremement the position while decrementing the contents of a cell statically? 14:53:15 I'm not sure whether arbitrary lookup is even possible in BF, at least without the tape being explicitly structured. 15:01:33 [>-<]: "Increment the pointer, decrement the contents of the new position and go back until zero is reached." 15:02:00 This doesn't do much 15:02:07 Yeah, fizzie got that wrong. 15:02:15 It should be [>-<[-]] 15:03:03 Alright, so... 15:04:03 So, what exactly happens with that one, Phantom_Hoover 15:04:55 Phantom_Hoover: it is possible 15:05:01 (arbitrary lookup, that is) 15:05:05 ais523, oh? 15:05:10 the trick is to move all the data along the tape 15:05:16 in order to give room for a bunch of temporaries 15:05:24 ais523, destructive as hell, surely? 15:05:30 no 15:05:39 as in, say the tape starts out as abc12345678 15:05:47 where the letters are temporaries and the numbers are data 15:05:51 you change it to 1abc2345678 15:05:59 then 12abc345678 15:06:00 and so on 15:06:05 moving the data past the temporaries 15:06:07 fruitbag, >[-]+<[>-<[-]>is effectively equivalent to logical not. 15:06:41 data[i+1] = !data[i]; data[i] = 0 15:06:58 ais523, oh. 15:07:26 Doing that without some sort of compiler (or even macro system) seems like a road to insanity. 15:07:49 Speaking of sanity, I think mine is on the verge 15:08:05 fruitbag, that's normal here. 15:08:27 Phantom_Hoover: I just want to go somewhere and be alone for a few weeks. 15:08:40 Understandable. 15:10:20 Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse if you live in a big city 15:16:38 How would one reverse a string? 15:18:02 Well, having an effective swap algorithm would be a good start. 15:19:31 -!- relet has joined. 15:19:49 transfer-add a to a temp, b to a, then the temp to b 15:20:00 that's a relatively fast swap 15:20:08 Hmmm 15:23:59 -!- tombom_ has joined. 15:24:01 Well, if you null-terminate the string at each end, that might be enough. 15:26:07 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:29:07 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:29:38 Ah, Mr. Pressey. I've been expecting you. 15:29:43 * Phantom_Hoover strokes his cat 15:31:45 ^rev a string 15:31:46 gnirts a 15:31:49 ^show rev 15:31:50 >,[>,]<[.<] 15:32:00 Okay, so it just reads it in and prints out in the opposite order. 15:37:01 -!- alise has joined. 15:46:17 Interesting stuff 15:47:21 "World disconnects need to be avoided at all costs" 15:47:24 Love you, AWSDK 15:51:39 Is there a variant of BF that allows one to specify numbers? 15:52:02 For instance, if I wanted to place 10 at a cell, instead of doing ++++++++++ I would do 10+ 15:52:12 Probably. 15:52:18 10+[-] 15:52:32 It's easy enough to implement. 15:53:00 there's a bunch of BF abbreviations like that 15:53:13 BF Joust writes it as (+)*10, for instance 15:54:33 Guys, I think I have an idea... 15:54:40 For a for loop 15:55:38 What if we form of statement that would go back to the intial cell? 15:55:55 That is, it would go forward incrementally and at the same time go backward decrementally 15:56:33 We have an intial value, go forward once, go backwad once (and decrement once) then go forward twice and so on 15:56:43 that sounds about right 15:56:53 although it depends on what you're using the loop to do 15:57:24 Initial value, forward once, backward once (decrement by one), forward twice, ... 15:57:36 ais523: traversing a specified number of cells 15:58:30 Initial value, forward once, backward once (decrement by one), forward twice, backward twice (decrement by one), forward by three, backward by three (decrement by one), ... 15:58:39 I'm not sure how to implement this, though 15:59:57 Any thoughts? 16:00:48 So this is for "apply code to n consecutive cells"? 16:01:20 In which case adding 1 to each cell that needs to be operated on and zeroing the next one is probably simpler. 16:05:23 -!- Flonk has joined. 16:07:22 alise, you were the one asking if Star Trek (2009) was worth watching 16:07:27 s/$/?/ 16:08:58 I don't understand why people write 'Brainf*ck' when they are writing academic articles 16:09:03 Surely, we are all adults... 16:09:29 fruitbag, because. We had a long discussion on this last night 16:09:35 Really? 16:09:52 Well, not Brainfuck specifically. Censorship in general. 16:10:13 I see 16:10:24 It's ridiculous, really... 16:10:42 Phantom_Hoover: if vulgar words are used artistically and tastefully, then I'm for it 16:10:50 If they are used just for the sake of being used, I'm against it 16:11:01 Yes, that was the consensus. 16:11:13 fungot's bf interp does the rle-style thing on output, and internally, but it doesn't allow it as input. 16:11:14 fizzie: the code would be 16:11:27 ^def test bf +++++ 16:11:28 Defined. 16:11:34 ^show test 16:11:34 +5 16:11:45 ^help def 16:11:45 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 16:11:59 What langs does it support? 16:12:11 lang=bf/ul, like it says. 16:12:49 No others so far, though I do have a standalone M-code interp I could finish and integrate in theory. 16:15:21 Get a load of this -- I just read that some rich Arab payed 9 million for a number plate that is just "1" 16:16:01 I suppoes there are indeed good ways to spend a shitload of money on 16:20:38 Meh. Someone in Asia payed an inordinate sum for 5. 16:23:20 How much would you have to pay for "" 16:24:07 Well, how much does a 5-digit number cost? 16:25:09 Gregor: I don't think a zero-length numberplate would be allowed 16:25:39 In Unlambda, is `c the current continuation? 16:25:48 no, not exactly 16:25:56 `ci will get you the current continuation 16:26:10 Oh, so c is call/cc. 16:26:13 what c does is to grab a continuation that causes c to retroactively return with the value it's given, and pass it to c's argument 16:26:16 yep, c is call/cc 16:26:22 No output. 16:29:10 There was that photo circling around the internet where someone had written a SQL injection thing on a self-made car numberplate, supposedly to foil those automatical speeding-ticket camera machines. (I doubt it actually work-worked anywhere, but still.) 16:30:31 http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/03/for_traffic_cameras.jpg that is. 16:34:18 What operating system do you guys use? 16:34:37 Every OS under the sun/ 16:36:16 Phantom_Hoover: So, something that runs on a Sparc? 16:36:43 Well, someone here probably does 16:37:13 I have a SPARCstation 5 in the basement, does that count? 16:37:25 (It's nice, but makes a whole lot of noise.) 16:37:27 Yes. Yes it does. 16:39:24 To answer more seriously, my gut tells me the channel might be somewhat Linux-dominated, but I'm sure there are exceptions. 16:39:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:35 Well, I'm in my workshop now and we use a multitude of OSes 16:47:45 I was tinkering around with Haiku OS last night 16:48:01 It's a hunka junk 16:54:06 Wha? 16:54:15 Have they ruined BeOS? 16:54:51 Anyway, yes, this channel is Linux + Windows with a few holdouts. 16:54:54 cpressey uses FreeBSD/ 16:54:56 *FreeBSD. 16:55:01 In fact Windows is very rare too. 16:55:20 So I'd say almost all Linux, maybe two to three windows, and ... cpressey. 16:56:18 And a handful of OS X usage. 16:56:30 Distros, not so sure; I'd expect a plurality, but not necessarily a majority, of Ubuntu, one or two Debian (fizzie and Gregor (well, sidux, but it's basically the same thing)), a few on Arch (Deewiant, AnMaster (sometimes), me), 16:56:31 Oh, wait, that'd be the holdouts. 16:56:32 :P 16:56:42 and two on Gentoo (pikhq and AnMaster). 16:56:48 pikhq: Oh yeah; jix is OS X. 16:57:10 The common theme is, of course, UNIX. 16:57:19 comex uses OS X and Linux I think 16:57:32 Warrigal and Slereah use Windows unless Slereah finally got Linux working properly 16:57:38 Sgeo uses Windows because of his shitty games 16:57:43 etc 16:57:50 *etc. 16:58:03 The okkklo pol is Windowsy too, wasn't he? 16:58:15 Yes. But also Ubuntu on one of his laptops. 16:58:18 But Windows now, I think. 16:58:23 Also, "is ... wasn't" 16:58:29 I don't use Windows 16:59:02 I never said you. 16:59:07 I do have that OS X laptop too, but I guess this was more "use for the most of the time" type of question. 16:59:14 Did I say you, coppro? 16:59:15 I will probably download a legit copy through the MSDNAA next year, but not because I like Windows 16:59:15 Hmm 16:59:24 alise: I like to feel important 16:59:26 So I'd say almost all Linux, maybe two to three windows, and ... cpressey. 16:59:26 *Windows 16:59:27 >_> 16:59:27 What machines are you guys using right now? 16:59:28 coppro: :D 16:59:34 zzo38 uses Windows, shockingly. 16:59:43 I'm seriously considering having announcement handlers run in separate processes and all be run in 1 monitor 16:59:44 pikhq: Until he switches to ZZO38NUX 16:59:45 I'm using a Lenovo Thinkpad T60 16:59:51 fruitbag: Handbuilt $300 desktop. 16:59:53 Running Windows 7 17:00:02 Graphics card is shit, everything else is rather reasonable. 17:00:03 fruitbag: Toshiba T150 running Arch Linux. 17:00:17 I have a crappy Acer. I may get a better computer soon, but then my decisionphobia kicks in. 17:00:17 Nice 17:00:22 At least, I think it's a T150. 17:00:23 Acer is quite nice, Phantom_Hoover 17:00:26 alise, please tell me that what I said is close enough to "single-threaded" as to seem pointless 17:00:34 And non-dangerous 17:00:37 13.3" screen, 1.33 GHz ultra-low voltage processor, 4 GiB of RAM. 17:00:43 fruitbag, well, yes. It's fine in all non-graphicsy respects. 17:00:45 I remember having an Acer before it was well-known in 1997 17:00:48 s 17:00:48 It can almost decode 1080p with full AV synchronisation, so I'm happy with its performance. 17:00:54 I have a Microsoft optical mouse plugged in :P 17:01:10 I have a T500 17:01:10 alise: I no longer use Windows. 17:01:10 This box too doesn't really have a model name, and listing all the specs sounds a bit too boresome. 17:01:12 <3 TP 17:01:19 Warrigal: Okay. What do you use? OS X? Linux? 17:01:25 T500 sounds like a terminator model. 17:01:35 Usually OS X, sometimes Linux. 17:01:41 On eBay, there's a bunch of low-grade ARM Windows CE junk 17:01:43 this thing has awful graphics but a beast of a processor (for compiling) 17:01:45 At around 50 17:01:57 fruitbag: Yes, but Why Would You Want To. 17:02:10 I do own a ridiculously shitty "netbook"; 7" screen, ARM, and running a bastardised Debian. 17:02:12 Just for itnkering 17:02:19 I got proper Debian on it but broke it with one tiny error. Sigh. 17:02:23 alise: Chinese stuff? 17:02:28 fruitbag: Nah, "Ubisurfer" 17:02:46 alise, for DESTRUCTION 17:02:48 It's the cheapest netbook ever, apparently. Comes with FREE FREE GPRS internet which /proxies to a Windows server running IE and sends back images of the page/ 17:02:50 (I am not joking.) 17:02:53 Sharp have released a nice device they call the Netwalker, I think 17:02:57 Is that the right name? 17:02:57 Cost like £150 so, ha. 17:03:05 fruitbag: Apparently. 17:03:12 I pretty much hate netbooks. 17:03:12 Free GPRs? I should have thought that they were standard. 17:03:15 There's a Debian in my phone, too. (Okay, so it's Maemo, but close enough.) 17:03:21 Phantom_Hoover: GPRS internet :| 17:03:23 and only for proxying to IE 17:03:31 ARM-based stuff is secure 17:03:37 alise, madness. 17:03:39 Actually, not entirely... 17:03:56 You can never be entirely immune if you are using Mozilla on every architecture 17:03:58 fruitbag: I also own a 2006 iMac, a relatively new low-spec computer in an old, old case that I don't use... 17:04:09 Does an iPhone count as a computer? 17:04:12 fruitbag: Buh? 17:04:15 What does ARM have to do with security? 17:04:19 What does Mozilla have to do with security? 17:04:34 alise: ARM isn't mainstream 17:04:42 Well, yeah, no shit, neither is Linux. 17:04:47 Well, nonexecutable memory is an arch-level security feature 17:04:51 alise: Mozilla is a mainstream browser that is a popular target 17:04:53 But the mainstream argument is bunk; it's UNIX's security model that saves it. 17:04:56 I use Windows here (at work) and Linux (Ubuntu) at home. I used to run primarily FreeBSD, but that was a few years ago now. 17:04:57 But I doubt a RISC would have it. 17:05:04 fruitbag: Once targeted you could only run native code, though, if you wanted to do anything interesting. 17:05:08 So ARM is safe anyway. 17:05:17 Anyway, it's more the OS. 17:05:27 Windows is simply fundamentally flawed wrt its security model... 17:05:36 alise: I once had an idea of a secure setup: two machines -- one for internet-based stuff and another for work and storing data. 17:05:45 Secure setup: Properly sandboxed operating system... 17:06:00 Anyway, if you use Linux and don't run programs with "sudo" unless you know what they do... you're fine# 17:06:02 One machine would never be connected at all 17:06:04 s/#$// 17:06:13 alise: make that mostly fine 17:06:26 Ubuntu makes my home laptop an unenjoyable piece of junk, but at least it runs -- I don't trust any *BSD to install on such a fragile profile of hardware as a laptop, and they all have such crud package managers. 17:06:34 And for backing up, two seperate hard drives 17:06:34 alise, your security features on that OS we were discussing were... mad. 17:06:54 Unless I misremember, mooz had a non-internetted primary-use computer at some point; used a serial link to transfer selected data files when necessary, and never anything executable. 17:06:54 Madder than everything else. 17:06:58 Phantom_Hoover: Mad in a good way, I hope :D 17:07:03 you can still lose your homedir, and kernel exploits could give a root. Kernel exploits are far rare than exploits 17:07:09 alise, EVERYTHING RAN IN RING 0. 17:07:12 Anyway it's basically a blend of E's and Newspeak's security systems. 17:07:20 Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah. 17:07:26 But that's just to avoid context-switching. 17:07:30 fizzie: sure, but even that serial link could put the machine in danger in some way 17:07:39 fruitbag: No ... it couldn't 17:07:46 OSes don't just randomly run code that comes in on ports. 17:07:52 You're a bit paranoid. 17:07:58 alise: There could be an exploit in the serial port driver, you see! 17:08:16 alise, remember Lumenos? He was more paranoid. 17:08:21 The safest way to transfer data between machines is by a USB flash stick 17:08:23 Right. That's likely, you know, because serial ports are so hard to get right. 17:08:25 So much potential for error. 17:08:35 fruitbag: do you actually put this system into practice? Surely you realise how hopelessly impractical and overly paranoid it is. 17:08:37 He always links to the HTTPS version of Wikipedia. 17:08:48 No, alise... I abandoned the idea 17:08:50 fruitbag: Besides, haha... 17:08:54 fruitbag: There could be an exploit in the USB driver. 17:08:56 fruitbag, THERE COULD BE A BUG IN THE USB DRIVERS! 17:08:56 It's also no safer than a serial link. 17:08:58 Just as much as the serial port driver. 17:09:03 Oh snap, channel-wide epiphany 17:09:15 OH MY GOD... I BELIEVE IN GOD NOW! 17:09:26 Especially if the other computer is Windows; wasn't there that relatively recent USB-stick-driven seek-some-industrial-control-system virus? 17:09:31 I suppose the setup is indeed overly paranoid 17:09:34 (Since those tend to be not connected to the interwebs.) 17:09:34 You should be using transfer methods rooted entirely in userspace! 17:09:38 I daresay that USB drivers are much more likely to be broken than serial port drivers. 17:09:49 Monolithic kernels are innately insecure! 17:09:51 A better idea would be to make the internet machine ARM-based 17:09:55 Something that isn't mainstream 17:09:58 I think you just like ARM too much. 17:10:02 * cpressey blinks 17:10:03 * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose 17:10:07 You knows, OSes don't just randomly run machine code in ring 0. 17:10:09 Well, I suppose it could be MIPS-based too 17:10:10 Is this conversation actually taking place? 17:10:13 x_x 17:10:13 alise, except yours 17:10:19 Phantom_Hoover: No, it runs Lisp. 17:10:24 cpressey: Apparently. 17:10:30 `addquote * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose 17:10:35 208|* Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose 17:10:46 Lisp which is compiled, hence making binary distribution the least secure thing ever. 17:10:57 Phantom_Hoover: Er, no. 17:11:03 It only runs source Lisp, which it compiles itself. 17:11:15 There is no method to execute machine code outside of the top security level. 17:11:22 Below, it's just Lisp. 17:11:23 And with a single buffer overflow... 17:11:28 In what? 17:11:35 In something. 17:11:36 What is the least secure programming language? 17:11:41 Phantom_Hoover: That's remarkably vague. 17:11:45 fruitbag, define "secure". 17:11:46 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure you've thought this exploit through. 17:12:17 alise, well, it is for an OS which hasn't been thought through. 17:12:23 Phantom_Hoover: for instance, since there is no array bounds checking in C, buffer overflow security holes are common 17:12:32 fruitbag, assembly, then. 17:12:44 Or InsecureLang, which I shall invent now. 17:12:47 Phantom_Hoover: Well, I'm 99.9999% certain my security model works. :P 17:13:40 That's a lot of nines; is this one of the 89 % of statistics that are made up on the spot? 17:13:48 All programs will allow the execution of arbitrary code if the word "foo" is typed in at any point of their execution. 17:13:59 alise: The traditional argument against (e.g.) Lisp and for context switching is that Lisp (or any other VM) can't get the performance of compiled code. But the alternative is all that time taken context switching -- I haven't regularly believed the argument. 17:14:00 fizzie: The exact figure is 74%. 17:14:16 cpressey, compiled Lisp. 17:14:25 cpressey: My architecture was a Lisp compiler. Everything ran in ring 0, but because the Lisp had a very strong security model, it was safe. 17:14:51 cpressey: Since you could only pass Lisp to be executed, and there was a very strong total sandboxing system in place, it's even safer than typical UNIX-based OSes. 17:15:07 cpressey: Everything runs in ring 0 because one single call could end up talking to the hardware via e.g. the keyboard driver. 17:15:17 So instead of switching into kernel and back all the time, we just run everything in ring 0. 17:15:43 Is this the "safe assuming no implementation errors" definition of "safe"? 17:16:16 fizzie, it appears so. 17:18:02 -!- alise has left (?). 17:18:04 -!- alise has joined. 17:18:14 Phantom_Hoover: "Lumenos was currently" --Lumenos 17:18:26 Ah, Lumenos. 17:18:34 I have an article on Lumeniki now. 17:18:44 Phantom_Hoover: http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Lumenikilu Fun fact: Capitalising the first letter of a word makes it plural. 17:19:13 Phantom_Hoover: Do link. 17:19:23 http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/PhatTom_Hoover 17:19:30 I love him now just for the picture. 17:22:31 clearly Ubuntu 11.04 will be "Niggardly Nigger" 17:22:42 (NOTE: Only one word in that sentence is hideously offensive.) 17:23:05 alise, have you worked out a sensible way of mapping disc to memory yet? 17:23:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. I propose we use flux capacitors. 17:23:44 But we're going for standard x86-64 hardware, aren't we? 17:24:25 Augmented with flux capacitors. 17:24:57 Why not make it a TwoDucks OS, then? 17:25:21 Because of mogulic misappropriation. 17:25:35 -!- derdon has joined. 17:29:08 Does Haskell allow you to define monads that aren't functors? 17:29:22 Yes; this is a flaw. 17:29:32 O.o 17:29:33 I believe Monad originated before Functor, so there is not the dependency. 17:29:57 IIRC there is a Monad instance in the standard library which is not a functor (in the mathematical sense); this is an egregrious abuse, but there you go. 17:30:19 In what sense isn't it mathematical? 17:30:29 s/mathematical/functorial/ 17:30:44 Because it does not obey the functor laws. 17:31:30 ie. 17:31:31 fmap id = id 17:31:34 fmap (f.g) = fmap f . fmap g 17:31:45 *i.e. 17:32:47 Oh jeez, Emacs depends on gconf. 17:32:55 Seriously? 17:32:57 Yep. 17:33:01 The GTK+ version, at least. 17:33:09 Well, that makes some sense. 17:33:18 The kind of sense that makes me want to slap people. 17:33:34 Why? 17:33:45 Because dammit I don't want gconf. 17:34:17 Why not? 17:34:35 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..). 17:35:05 Because I don't want GNOME components on my system; and because gconf not only requires a daemon to run at all times, but is very hard to change keys in -- you can't just edit the files, really. 17:36:22 ... of course, since I don't have gconfd running, Evince won't actuall yremember my settings but will still have the daemon installed. 17:39:07 *actually remember 17:41:14 I need a single word that means "of note". :| 17:42:04 Notable 17:42:23 Yeah, another one. 17:42:38 Ununnotable 17:42:48 No. 17:43:51 alise: There's a Monad instance that's not a functor? Said Monad instance is clearly not a monad. 17:43:55 And hence this is a bug. 17:44:08 pikhq: Of course; but a well-established one, just like Monad not being declared as Functor => Monad. 17:44:16 alise: Which instance? 17:44:20 People loathe to change the standard library, quite understandably. 17:44:26 pikhq: I'm not sure. 17:44:28 I loathe the standard library. 17:44:57 pikhq: Have you read the Epitome? 17:45:15 alise: No. 17:45:24 http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf 17:45:46 The finest Epigram implementation there is! The only Epigram implemention there is! 17:46:01 Written in beautiful Strathclyde Haskell Extension, typeset by beautiful LaTeX! 17:46:09 To be compiled with the beautiful glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation system! 17:46:37 Sadly, said LaTeX is not microtype'd. 17:46:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:46:44 pikhq: You can /tell/? 17:46:47 Hi ais523. 17:46:51 alise: Yes. 17:46:55 pikhq: How??? 17:47:04 The T vs the i on the first page? 17:47:05 alise: Lack of margin kerning. 17:47:07 hi 17:47:10 Well, page 7. 17:47:11 pikhq: Is that it? 17:47:19 what's this debate about? 17:47:32 ais523: pikhq has been given a PDF typeset with LaTeX 17:47:35 Most of the other microtypography stuff is not noticable outside of comparisons. 17:47:42 ais523: he has been able to /recognise/ that it has not been \usepackage{microtype}d 17:47:50 impressive 17:47:50 ais523: because of a lack of a specific microtypographical correction 17:47:58 I am busy being astonished that he has managed to do this. 17:48:10 pikhq: Which two lines gave it away? 17:48:13 (the character shrinking and stretching is only noticable in that it generates less ugly hyphenation 17:48:25 And what sect of Buddhism do I have to study to reach this kind of enlightenment? 17:48:38 alise: Look at any line with ending terminal punctuation. This is what makes it *most* obvious. 17:48:43 Erm. Ending punctuation. 17:48:44 The character shrinking and stretching sucks a bit though, because you have to disable ligatures for it to work properly, which disables quotes etc. 17:48:53 even if you do it specifically avoiding disabling quotes 17:49:01 ligatures get disabled even at small spacings 17:49:05 where they would be beneficial 17:49:24 pikhq: But there aren't any to start with. 17:49:30 Anyway, whatever, it's just an Epigram implementation :P 17:49:32 The letter spacing changes are also only noticable in that they generate less ugly hyphenation... 17:49:41 You said that. 17:49:47 Oh, letter spacing. 17:49:48 Okay. 17:49:55 To prove that statement, we first show that any Tm {In, VV} p which is not a N t is not a 17:49:56 neutral term. This is obvious as we are left with lambda and canonicals, which cannot be stuck. 17:49:58 Yeah, I see it there. 17:49:59 Page 9. 17:50:05 Tons of it. 17:50:11 Ah, you mean commas? 17:50:15 Okay; I see it there. 17:50:24 Yes, commas also get kerned on the edge. 17:50:49 Also, though this requires more attention to detail, you would be able to see other characters getting kerned. 17:50:56 Oh, by the way. This has bugged me about the Epitome for ages. 17:51:07 What does the Bwd constructor do? 17:51:13 !haskell :i Bwd 17:51:14 Oh, none of us have actually /read/ the thing. 17:51:15 For instance, that "k" on the second line of the second paragraph of page 9 would be partially in the margin. 17:51:27 Phantom_Hoover: See page 251. 17:51:36 As would the "T" on the very start of the first paragraph on page 9. 17:51:42 _o_ 17:51:42 | 17:51:42 /'\ 17:51:46 data Bwd x = B0 | Bwd x :< x 17:51:46 i.e. 17:51:51 data Bwd x = B0 | (<:) (Bwd x) x 17:51:55 i.e., a reverse list. 17:51:58 There's also 17:52:04 data Fwd x = F0 | (:>) x (Fwd x) 17:52:08 which is obviously the regular list structure. 17:52:44 "This always succeed." --Conor 17:56:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 17:57:57 How does one enable XeTeX's microtypographical support? 17:58:32 What is Epigram actually used to research? 17:58:53 Phantom_Hoover: Dependent types. 17:59:05 alise: Doesn't exist yet. 17:59:06 It's not actually actively being using to /research/ i.e. write papers and shit. 17:59:06 alise: Oh damn, you found the Epitome too? I was trying to read it. It's hilarious. 17:59:11 It's more an experimental vehicle. 17:59:18 cpressey: Hilarious because of Conor's humour, or what? :P 17:59:24 I can't tell what's a technical term from type theory and what's kidding. 17:59:30 Epitome? 17:59:38 cpressey: Either you said that before or someone else thought the same. 17:59:47 Sgeo: http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf 17:59:49 I had said it before :) 18:01:02 "References are the key way we represent free variables, declared, defined, and deluded." 18:01:16 Deluded is *probably* kidding. But who knows? 18:01:42 pikhq: So, wait, XeTeX does no microtypographical adjustments? 18:01:47 pikhq: But that's /half the point/ of XeTeX! 18:02:50 alise: Actually, the point of XeTeX is to support OpenType features. 18:02:56 So, uh, anyone know of a panelly thing for X11 that doesn't suck? A clock, systray icons, and a windows list, that's all I'm lookin' for. 18:03:18 It doesn't yet support the microtype portions of OpenType. 18:03:44 02:25:19 i left it way too late to chip in but i have a friend who thinks he may have an O(n^4) algorithm for turning NP into P 18:03:46 He's full of shit. 18:03:47 (likewise, it doesn't yet support the vertical text layout portions of OpenType) 18:03:55 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:03:56 pikhq: Well that's fucking useless. 18:04:12 Can you get Linux Libertine in ... a format that pdfTeX supports? 18:04:59 alise: The fact that "I don't want GNOME components on my system" isn't regarded as a valid desire is one of the defining problems of our generation (whatever that means)... it goes along with "This is just an accretion of hacks and features that were slapped on one-by-one" not being a valid criticism of a code base. 18:04:59 http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/help/Catalogue/entries/libertine.html 18:05:29 Oh, it's part of TeX Live. 18:05:32 \usepackage{libertine} 18:05:39 pikhq: <3 18:05:49 pikhq: Does it support all the nice ligatures and stuff? I hope so. 18:06:04 Should. 18:06:23 pikhq: Sir, that doesn't automatically set the text font. Whaddo I do 18:06:47 Uh? 18:07:35 pikhq: \usepackage{libertine} still uses Computer Modern fonts by default. 18:07:40 It seems I have to do more to set it as the default font. 18:07:42 Oh, hey. "XeTeX now supports margin kerning along the same lines as pdfTeX" 18:07:53 Okay, but this is fine too. I'm more comfortable with pdfTeX. :P 18:08:20 What's that command you use in the quotation environment, name \*flushright for some *, to set the author? 18:08:22 Like, you do 18:08:33 \somethingflushright Awesome Person 18:09:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 18:09:10 I dunno. 18:11:59 http://sourceforge.net/projects/webadmin/forums/forum/600155/topic/3801603 18:12:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:12:32 04:43:10 oerjan: Not cool, not funny, not a good comic? 18:12:37 fizzie's secret identity is revealed 18:12:59 coppro: gahahaha 18:13:13 well, okay, it's not that funny 18:16:31 http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/august/134484/Al-Jazeera-on-college-TV-station-causes-concern 18:16:49 http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP/argall.txt 18:16:50 "instance Naperian Bwd where -- cheeky!" 18:17:08 "a controversial network" 18:17:13 Al Jazeera is a controversial network? 18:17:24 Waaaaah ... I want to cry ... 18:17:32 alise, some of the comments are worse 18:18:00 alise, I assume you mean that fizzie is Randall Munroe? 18:18:05 No. 18:18:11 That fizzie is sjeforgotthenumbers. 18:18:27 "This is a government funded college and thus should only promote the United States of America. Not a fascist idiology of anti-American hate from those who are sworn to kill all of us as they are of wiping Israel off the map. The sooner you liberal knuckle-heads understand that salient point the clearer your thought processes might become." 18:18:30 I think -- hope -- this is a joke. 18:18:32 Or maybe, just possibly, I've just been reading the forums approximately thrice? 18:18:43 Inconceivable. 18:18:50 How dare you lie> 18:18:51 *lie? 18:19:08 pikhq: I forgot to \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}. *headdesk* 18:19:15 I lie where I lay. 18:19:28 alise, if that's a comment, it's not a joke. 18:19:32 fizzie: Insert Shakespearean pun. 18:19:35 The world is full of idiots. 18:19:37 Phantom_Hoover_: You know, some people /do/ use humour. 18:19:51 I hope that "P=NP is undecidable" proof is a joke, too, but it's not. 18:20:02 cpressey, proof? 18:20:13 Phantom_Hoover_: alise's link 18:20:23 I.. don't quite get it 18:22:47 pikhq: How does one set the default mathematics font in LaTeX? 18:23:46 Wow; evince segfaults on this PDF. 18:27:48 Oh, nice, Epigram is MITL'd. 18:28:09 Er, Epitome, or whatever their implementation is called, I mean. 18:28:32 MITL? 18:28:35 Hate it when language and implementation are conflated like that. 18:28:48 Do try to keep up, Phantom_Hoover_. 18:29:31 I have no idea what MITL means! 18:29:43 cpressey: Their implementation has no name; you just check out it, and all the associated components, from the "Epigram" repository. The way you interact with the implementation is called the Cochon interactive theorem prover. 18:30:02 That has the "data T := (c:T); ..." stuff and the "make x : T" stuff, etc. 18:30:21 But the expressions and the implementations of these syntaxes et al. is part of the implementation. 18:30:29 alise: They do say "the source code of Epigram is available..." Which always bugs me. 18:30:33 The Epitome is the name of the properly-typeset implementation. 18:30:44 cpressey: Yes, but that's {"An Epigram Implementation", Cochon, ...} 18:31:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 18:31:28 # 18:31:28 I know what they "probably mean" but I still regard it as a bad habit. 18:32:16 Too many people can't make the distinction -- no need to encourage it through more "abuse of notation" like that. Anyway, just my pet peeve. 18:33:10 * Sgeo gibbers at Reddit being down 18:34:38 Sgeo, it... isn't. 18:35:17 Not anymore 18:36:06 Sgeo, there is more to life than Reddit. 18:36:35 www.reddit.com works, reddit.com doesn't 18:39:35 What's the LaTeX command to set not initial line indentation of a paragraph, but indentation of all following lines? 18:41:06 <3 Spivak 18:41:22 "The best way is to draw pictures; but this requires a chapter all by itself." 18:42:23 What's that from? 18:43:03 his Calculus textbook 18:43:09 (he's talking about functions) 18:45:40 tokenEq t = (|id ~ () (% tokenFilter (== t) %)|) 18:45:57 I've never seen that syntax in Haskell before... is this SHE stuff? 18:46:43 -!- relet1 has joined. 18:48:40 -!- relet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:52:15 pikhq: \usepackage[libertine} doesn’t do the “Qu” ligature. 18:52:38 -!- alise has left (?). 18:52:39 -!- alise has joined. 18:52:42 Which sucks. 18:54:13 cpressey: So do you really use FreeBSD as a day-to-day OS? 18:54:43 alise: I used to. Meaning, no. But I have, in the past. 18:55:10 alise: :( 18:55:25 There's a "Qu" ligature? 18:55:55 Upside: the kernel is actually well written. Downside: all BSD package managers suck. Java support was almost nonexistent. The userland is still largely GNU anyway. Etc, etc. 18:56:52 cpressey: What do you use now? 18:56:56 Phantom_Hoover: In Libertine, yes. 18:57:06 Phantom_Hoover: The Q’s tail flows underneath the u. 18:57:09 How do I see it? 18:57:17 Do you have the Linux Libertine font installed? 18:57:21 Yes. 18:57:27 Switch to it on IRC. XChat, yes? 18:57:33 alise: Ubuntu. Sadly. Can I call it Ubuntoad? That, and Cygwin-under-Windows-7. 18:58:00 Phantom_Hoover: Switched to it? 18:58:11 Indeed. 18:58:15 Query. 18:58:17 “Quite how we are to perform this feat, I am not certain,” admitted the dean. 18:58:19 Coool. 18:58:23 Q Q Q Qu 18:58:25 Q u 18:58:36 This font is indeed cool. 18:58:55 Q​u <-- with zero width space inbetween 18:58:58 Q​u Qu 18:59:03 The former is how it apperas in LaTeX. 18:59:06 Phantom_Hoover: It is a pretty nice typeface. 18:59:34 A bit too... subtle for freetype to render properly, but all other fonts suck more, so I’m using it on IRC. 18:59:34 As a typography illiterate, I can confirm thi. 18:59:49 I especially like the capital “M”. The little slant! It’s so cute. 18:59:57 Phantom_Hoover: Also: “Th” is a ligature. 19:00:03 :) 19:00:10 Type “T”, then “h”. Note the transformation. 19:00:21 T​h Th <-- Zero-width spaces to the rescue. 19:00:25 I'll have days of fun with this! 19:00:37 f​i fi <-- The fi ligature. 19:00:46 f​l fl <-- The fl ligature. 19:00:54 f​f ff <-- The ff ligature. 19:00:59 (Those are a bit more subtle.) 19:01:04 (Though the unligatured fi is hideous.) 19:01:19 Phantom_Hoover: Also nice is Biolinium, Libertine’s sans-serif sister. 19:01:26 I know this. 19:01:33 Okay. 19:01:43  <-- Thank Libertine for this. 19:01:48  19:01:54  19:02:10  is pretty bizarre; does it show up as wavy lines for anyone else? 19:02:44 Yep. 19:02:54 Wait, that's not much help. 19:03:19 It stays as wavy lines in my terminal. 19:04:00 alise: it's a black circle for me 19:04:25 ○ ○ 19:04:25  19:04:25  19:04:32 ○ ○ 19:04:32  19:04:33  19:04:36 ○ ○ 19:04:37  19:04:38  19:04:53 ○ ○ 19:04:53  19:04:53  19:04:57 ○ ○ 19:04:57  19:04:58  19:05:01 ○ ○ 19:05:02  19:05:03  19:05:06 Yayy 19:05:10 ○ ○ 19:05:11  19:05:12  19:05:14 It is perfect! 19:05:16 The face is complete. 19:07:28 alise, no it isn't. 19:07:34 Yes it is. Why isn't it? 19:07:36 The nose is off-centre. 19:07:45 Looks centred to me. 19:08:00 “I wish I had some sort of XChat plugin that properifies my quote marks.” 19:08:06 And makes -- into a real em-dash. 19:08:12 That's because you're a FASCIST. 19:08:17 alise, compose key? 19:08:21 Phantom_Hoover: Is not automatic. 19:08:22 It's there for a reason. 19:08:31 Oh wait, I can just make substitutions for ``, '' and --. 19:08:32 Awesome! 19:09:41 ``Testing.'' 19:09:42 Whaat. 19:09:43 No output. 19:09:46 Oh, it needs to be a word. 19:09:48 Supremely lame. 19:11:41 Wow, you’re meant to use an en-dash rather than a hyphen when it’s an adjective attached to multiple words, e.g. “Civil War–era”. 19:11:45 At least according to this random website. 19:12:49 Wikipedia doesn't seem to back this up. 19:13:27 alise: It's something that varies from style guide to style guide. 19:14:14 Hah, Unicode can't mark up superscript-th, for all its useless superscripts and subscripts. 19:15:22 pikhq: Clearly, the preferred usage should be {Civil War}-era. 19:15:27 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:15:55 alise: Clearly. :P 19:21:56 I want a programming language! Stat! 19:22:02 C 19:22:10 Meanwhilst: 19:22:11 http://conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity 19:22:16 coppro: No! Another one! Stat! 19:22:27 The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.[1] Here is a list of 24 counterexamples: any one of them shows that the theory is incorrect. 19:22:58 [[The action-at-a-distance of quantum entanglement.[5] 19:22:59 The action-at-a-distance by Jesus, described in John 4:46-54.]] 19:23:16 Juxtaposing quantum entanglement with Jesus for the same purpose: Hilarity defined. 19:23:21 alise: D 19:23:34 coppro: You're just going through the alphabet! 19:24:15 B is a programming language too! 19:24:22 So is E! 19:24:24 And A+! 19:24:30 And M! If you use that name instead of MUMPS. 19:29:51 alise, that article is one of the funnier ones. 19:30:18 they have "Black holes" in the list of liberal pseudoscience 19:33:18 theory: fax uses conservapedia 19:33:24 that would explain the insanity & the wikipedia hatred 19:34:23 Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--Andy Schlafly 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST) 19:35:01 Phantom_Hoover: You know that WM I described to you? 19:36:30 "On this site we encourage *thinking* in a logical way.--Andy Schlafly" 19:38:22 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:42:06 whoa 19:42:20 I never knew the government could be this helpful 19:47:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:49:26 coppro: ? 19:50:26 -!- tombom_ has joined. 19:54:43 fizzie, there? 19:55:36 08:15:21 Get a load of this -- I just read that some rich Arab payed .9 million for a number plate that is just "1" 19:55:43 08:20:38 Meh. Someone in Asia payed an inordinate sum for 5. 19:55:58 i think those were the same country, it was in a newspaper here 19:56:26 Qatar or Kuwait or something like that 19:58:05 hm abu dhabi 19:58:17 Qatar is a bad name for a country because it does not utilise the Qu ligature. 19:58:24 (part of UAE) 19:58:29 fizzie, apart from the previously mentioned panos recently I took some obviously non-pano photos with my phone from a moving car on the way home (I don't have the google setup sadly!). http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/ if you are interested. If you can recommend some software to generate a minimalistic static gallery page I would be happy. Nothing that wouldn't wor 19:58:29 k in links2 -g that is. 19:59:25 I've used a Java thing for a static album dealie, but I'm not sure I'd go and recommend it. 20:00:09 hm 20:00:39 incidentally the top google hit when i tried to find it was a blog saying it was saudi arabia, but i am 100% sure that is wrong (and a later google hit said abu dhabi) 20:00:41 for x in *; do echo "

" >>index.html; done 20:00:49 It also seems to have become confusing, with some sort of free hosting plan and iPhone apps and whatnot. 20:01:07 The do-it-yourself solution is always a possibility, too. 20:01:56 fizzie, that involves a lot of work I'm not willing to spend 20:02:02 Or the "thumbnails with bash-oneliner of convert, ls | sed to create the album page" approach in my case. 20:02:20 fizzie, so for now wget -r -np http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/ and eog on the resulting directory 20:02:54 Or just clickety-click in the browser. 20:03:03 fizzie, that involves more clicking ;P 20:03:25 two clicks for next image 20:03:43 http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/Bild032.jpg might need some explanation... 20:03:44 It's O(n), anyway. (Or, well, I guess eog can do some sort of automatic-advance slideshow, maybe.) 20:04:03 I don't know the English word for hemvärnet 20:04:07 Isn't mewtwo some sort of pokeymon? 20:04:09 but that building used to be that 20:04:19 fizzie, yes, I didn't decide naming scheme of servers 20:04:32 Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). 20:04:41 cpressey, XD 20:04:57 `addquote Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). 20:05:01 *MWAHAHAHA* 20:05:04 209| Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). 20:05:04 AnMaster: for x in *; do echo "

" >>index.html; done 20:05:09 Oh no! 20:05:14 fizzie, as the domain name implies it is an irc network (you wouldn't like it I think). I'm an oper there. Not the one deciding on naming scheme though. 20:05:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:05:24 Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). 20:05:24 wat 20:05:29 alise, hm, needs some

and such 20:05:31 but good idea 20:05:32 AnMaster: nope 20:05:35 AnMaster:

is perfectly valid 20:05:38 (without unterminated

) 20:05:40 alise, I don't do HTML5, sorry 20:05:45 AnMaster: in HTML4.1 Strict 20:05:51 alise, I don't do that either 20:05:54 He only speaks XML, you see. 20:05:55 I prefer xhtml 20:06:01 fizzie: yeah, but that's just because he's fucking stupid. 20:06:09 fizzie, actually S-Expressions too, but no browser does that 20:06:19 They may be crazy, but I'm with them on the "black holes are probably a complete fiction" platform. 20:06:42 cpressey: x_x 20:06:44 How so&interrobang; 20:06:45 cpressey, that doesn't explain the evidence for them in the form of gravitational lenses and so on 20:06:51 cpressey: That is... vanishingly unlikely. 20:07:18 Wow... I think I just disproved the Riemann hypothesis. 20:07:20 http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw 20:07:22 You heard it here first. 20:07:33 P!=NP, !Riemann... a lot of interesting theorems being proved recently! 20:08:01 alise, I want to see this published in a peer-reviewed paper first :P 20:08:13 Published in a paper? 20:08:25 AnMaster: "Gravitational lensing" is a complete *guess* as to "why the sky appears like that there". 20:08:27 alise, well, if you actually *proved* it... 20:08:37 AnMaster: You fail at terminology. 20:08:43 alise: black holes not actually existing as singularities isn't that unlikely 20:08:44 alise, well, disproved it 20:08:46 Besides, I didn't; I disproved it. 20:08:51 alise, still 20:08:54 AnMaster: You don't publish things in papers. 20:08:57 alise, I used proved in the old sense 20:08:57 You publish papers in journals. 20:09:06 alise, err right 20:09:08 typo 20:09:10 A peer-reviewed newspaper! 20:09:21 cpressey: A peer-reviewed toilet paper. 20:09:36 Real Men of Science only use that stuff. 20:09:39 oerjan: ok, but black holes altogether? 20:09:43 you would be able to publish in any journal of your choice if your disproof passes peer review 20:09:50 AnMaster: yes, but I was announcing it here first. 20:09:56 so that people can take a look at it and maybe point out flaws 20:10:04 I'm submitting it to Annals of Mathematics tomorrow if all goes well. 20:10:10 I'm sure oerjan can back me up. 20:10:10 alise, well, my math is not nearly up to scratch in that area 20:10:13 oerjan: http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw 20:10:32 alise, and yes oerjan could probably help 20:10:32 alise: it might also be that horizon never actually forms (it's apparently consistent to assume that happens infinitely far in the future from our viewpoint, after all) 20:10:42 *the horizon 20:11:08 Incidentally, speaking of photography, I took a minute of handsfree video from the Assembly main hall, in the interests of trying out the panotools-driven time-lapse stabilization trick to make it un-shakey. It's unfortunately a pretty boring sight; just a bunch of flashing lights. 20:11:22 oerjan: any comments on my disproof? 20:11:45 alise, hm is this a constructive proof? As in you can show a specific value it is wrong for, or provide a way to construct such a value? 20:12:00 AnMaster: Erm, the Riemann hypothesis states that such a value exists. 20:12:09 Oh, no, wait. 20:12:11 I see what you mean. 20:12:13 My disproof specifies that. 20:12:22 AnMaster: it is not a constructive proof, but then a great many mathematical proofs aren't 20:12:30 indeed 20:12:39 constructing a value is probably possible but I have no idea what kind of techniques you'd use 20:12:44 Mine is a simple proof by contradiction. 20:12:44 alise, doesn't it state that *all* _non-trivial_ 0 lies on a specific line 20:12:51 Yes; I handle this. 20:13:02 A trivial 0 = negative even number. 20:13:07 indeed 20:13:28 or something like that 20:13:35 I don't remember the specific details 20:13:47 alise, anyway what about that P!=NP proof? 20:14:18 what do you mean, what about it? 20:14:31 alise: Is it correct, of course. 20:14:36 alise: I assume you've already grokked all about it! 20:14:50 as in, who made it and who checked it 20:14:54 It's only 100 pages of pure math. 20:14:58 it was authored by a competent computer scientist working at a high position in a large coroporation, it was sent to a bunch of high-profile computer scientists to review; it got published not by the author, but by someone else (so he didn't just post a non-peer-reviewed paper) 20:15:11 But it hasn't been conclusively checked yet. 20:15:14 I think it's possibly true -- he's not a crank -- but probably flawed but useful. 20:15:21 I have to say however I will be less surprised if it is proven that P!=NP than if P=NP is proven. 20:15:23 AnMaster: it was only published by "accident". 20:15:34 P=NP doesn't mean much, the constant factor could be G_64. 20:15:39 well yes 20:15:51 alise, but it *could* also be quite small 20:16:02 Could, yes, but that's the kind of assumption I'm not willing to make. 20:16:04 alise, and did it stand up to other people checking it. 20:16:20 alise, well indeed. I'm not assuming it is small. 20:16:44 AnMaster: it's only 3 days since it first appeared. experts are discussing it as we speak. 20:16:50 I'm not assuming it is large either 20:17:02 oerjan, who? 20:17:03 the godel's letter blog had a post on it today 20:17:06 ah 20:17:14 "However, the suitable track record of Vinay Deolalikar and his proof, which stated that P was smaller than NP for infinite time Turing Machines, lessen the chances of errors." 20:17:15 okay so it passed outside this channel 20:17:17 good thing 20:17:47 AnMaster: um that P != NP proof has nothing to do with #esoteric 20:17:47 Infinite time? Hello! 20:17:53 cpressey, to me that looks slightly incoherent 20:18:06 oerjan: No no! Vinay is a long-time esolang enthusiast! 20:18:08 "“But enough question-dodging!” you exclaim. “Is the proof right or isn’t it? C’mon, it’s been like three hours since you first saw it—what’s taking you so long?” Well, somehow, I haven’t yet found the opportunity to study this 103-page manuscript in detail." 20:18:14 cpressey: there are lots of variations of P vs. NP question 20:18:20 oerjan, oh thought it did 20:18:20 cpressey: um you serious? :D 20:18:23 *shrug* 20:18:35 oerjan: ... 20:18:50 There's already this: http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=456 -- "If Vinay Deolalikar is awarded the $1,000,000 Clay Millennium Prize for his proof of P≠NP, then I, Scott Aaronson, will personally supplement his prize by the amount of $200,000. I’m dead serious—and I can afford it about as well as you’d think I can." 20:19:08 * alise ponders whether to install a Flash version with a known security vulnerability. 20:19:09 oerjan, I thought someone in here claimed something about working on a secret P?=NP proof 20:19:13 was it agur? 20:19:17 cpressey: he _could_ be from here, not everyone here has revealed their real name 20:19:20 Hmm ... hmm ... yes. 20:19:20 err spelling 20:19:27 AnMaster: oh that's cpressey :D 20:19:42 oerjan: It's *my claim* that he invented the following languages: Spray, SixBucks, and KomputerNO. 20:19:43 oerjan, oh right, I initially thought we talked about that proof 20:19:57 but i sincerely doubt his real name is something indian 20:19:57 oerjan, I have been on holiday, I haven't been able to keep up with news 20:20:06 cpressey: you forgot Findimate 20:20:07 oerjan, only been on from slow hotel wlan a few hours every day 20:20:23 cpressey: And "Six Reversed Quail Sausages". 20:20:46 oerjan: "there are lots of variations of P vs. NP question" -- but I've *read* the def'n from the Millenium Prize committee, and I don't remember anything about "infinite time". 20:20:48 * alise ponders whether to install a Flash version with a known security vulnerability. <-- why not go for a secure one... oh wait that is unlikely to exist 20:21:28 cpressey: http://logcom.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/5/577 20:21:48 two co-authors 20:21:58 AnMaster: they retracted the native 64-bit version 20:22:01 AnMaster: for linux 20:22:08 AnMaster: so the only available one is an older one with some known vulns 20:22:10 ah 20:22:15 alise, nspluginwrapper? 20:22:18 and i'm hideously irresponsible :) 20:22:19 or whatever it was called 20:22:27 AnMaster: has some mouse click issues and i think AV sync is a bit wonky 20:22:35 (sometimes/often mouse clicks won't register) 20:22:47 alise, youtube? I find youtube-dl and mplayer or vlc gives better result anyway 20:22:54 just the the last version 20:23:06 since the one in ubuntu and arch is too old to work with youtube atm 20:23:06 cpressey: by "variation" i mean other questions that are slightly different (often by adding an oracle) 20:23:12 Well ... the OS X users have a lovely browser plugin that replaces YouTube videos with an embedded native video player. 20:23:18 it's a single file to download 20:23:20 But I don't think there's anything similar for other browsers. 20:23:20 and chmod +x 20:23:57 alise: Shame, too. 20:24:06 The Flash player for Youtube sucks ass. 20:24:08 oerjan: OK, the article is sloppily referring to his *previous* (circa 2003) proof about infinite-time TMs. He has maybe extended the results to finite-time. 20:24:15 alise: There's some sort of "youtube enabler" for Firefox Mobile on N900 -- which I don't think did Flash properly, unlike the default browser -- that might do the same trick; haven't tried it. 20:24:16 Maybe I'll WRITE ONE! Okay, does anyone know if Greasemonkey is available for Midori? 20:24:29 It has user script support. Hoorj! 20:24:31 (in fact one of the main known obstacles to proving P ? NP is that the proof must not work if you add an oracle, because it's known that some oracles have P^O = NP^O and some have P^O != NP^O 20:24:32 "Youtube without Flash Auto" 20:24:35 ) 20:24:37 Wow, what a coinkydink. 20:24:51 / @description Adds links below the Youtube video to (a) download the video (HD .mp4 file, no converters are used, no external sites) (b) view the video with an embedded external player (like mplayerplug-in or the totem plugin) 20:24:55 mplayer yay I like mplayer. 20:25:21 community/gecko-mediaplayer 0.9.9.2-1 20:25:22 Browser plugin that uses gnome-mplayer to play media in a web browser 20:25:22 Yes please 20:25:28 oerjan: I never understood why you cannot simply say "I have a proof that P != NP when there is no oracle" 20:25:35 I think mplayer's plugin thing had some real issues way back then. But I'm sure it's been improved in the last five or so years. 20:26:23 cpressey, "because no one thought of doing that"? 20:26:40 You can also say "I have a 'natural' proof that P != NP -- therefore certain one-way functions do [not?] exist" (or however that goes) 20:26:59 cpressey: of course you can, the problem is that _most_ methods in complexity theory allow you to add an arbitrary oracle to a proof 20:27:29 cpressey: heh 20:27:30 oerjan: I have no doubt we're using crap methods, is the thing :/ 20:28:07 cpressey: natural proofs of P!=NP don't work, no? 20:28:19 cpressey: well hopefully this guy found a non-crap method :) 20:28:23 "Notably, assuming one-way functions exist, these proofs cannot separate the complexity classes P and NP." 20:28:24 ha 20:28:24 *ah 20:28:34 oerjan, did you look at alise's disprof of Riemann 20:28:38 disprof! 20:28:43 *disproof 20:28:47 "...it seems to introduce some thought-provoking new ideas, particularly a connection between statistical physics and the first-order logic characterization of NP." from Scott Aaronson's blog. 20:28:53 If he's using physics -- oi. 20:28:58 He is. 20:28:59 AnMaster: i looked at the page, then my brain promptly ran away screaming 20:29:00 Statistical physics. 20:29:04 alise: Then -- oi. 20:29:09 Oui. 20:29:39 wtf is "statistical physics"? 20:30:05 I sure hope it's mathematically defined. 20:30:26 "We measured the running time of several Turing machines and concluded that..." 20:30:50 alise, btw that disproof you made was done by some proof checker right? 20:30:58 it has a certain structure to it 20:31:01 AnMaster: nope 20:31:05 hm 20:31:13 AnMaster: i used a CAS to simplify the expressions though 20:31:22 If the proof checker in question is Alise, maybe 20:31:27 alise, anyway yeah I can't help you check it due to my brain also running away screaming 20:31:36 * alise runs away screaming for effect 20:31:40 XD 20:31:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_physics 20:32:05 alise: Maybe you should take it to ##math or whatever it is. (Haha.) 20:32:38 The thing is, you see, and I hesistate to point this out but, you see, um well, Turing machines aren't physical, er, objects, you know? 20:32:52 cpressey: Presumably it's using some other facet of statistical physics ... 20:32:53 alise, but if the proof was that short I strongly suspect someone else would have found it by now. Of course it could be correct, but you shouldn't be disappointed if it isn't 20:32:57 *Mathematical results from statistical physics* I have no problem with. 20:33:04 AnMaster: I won't be, I'm just interested. 20:33:09 But those are properly *in Statistics*, not physics. 20:33:19 AnMaster: anyway there is /some/ evidence to suggest that a simple proof of Fermat's Last Theorem is possible 20:33:25 i.e. proof sketches with just a few "hard" holes 20:33:27 *e.g. 20:33:38 cpressey: apparently random SAT instances are involved in the proof, i recall 20:33:54 oerjan: That sounds extremely likely. 20:34:13 alise, sure. No one has found that yet though. Maybe those holes takes a lot of stuff to fill? 20:34:19 AnMaster: Perhaps. 20:34:56 Actually, Shannon had some proof a long time ago that "a randomly constructed formula has a big circuit", but for some reason that doesn't prove P != NP, although it totally should. 20:35:33 And I should totally be writing unit tests for my huge-ass infrastructure refactor right now. 20:37:40 Er 20:37:51 IIRC there is a Monad instance in the standard library which is not a functor (in the mathematical sense); this is an egregrious abuse, but there you go. 20:37:56 How well do I think Scott Aaronson can afford to give away 200 grand? 20:38:08 the functor law follows from the monad laws, surely 20:38:13 *laws 20:38:17 *-s 20:38:47 Pshaw. Laws. 20:39:15 well, i mean it must also break a monad law, then 20:39:28 oerjan: hmm 20:39:31 oerjan: I really don't recall 20:40:33 liftM f x = x >>= return . f 20:40:54 x >>= return . id = x >>= return = x, monad law 20:41:37 mm 20:42:19 x >>= return . (f . g) = x >>= \t -> return (f (g t)) there has to be some way to use the third monad law there 20:42:20 " If P≠NP is proved, then to whatever extent theoretical computer science continues to exist at all, it will have a very different character." 20:42:38 So... the proof DESTROYS THEORETICAL COMPUTER SCIENCE? Bitchen! 20:42:41 hm 20:42:52 Whaaa 20:43:07 How on earth will it change anything, it's the status quo 20:43:31 I think that's a friggin' narrow view of "theoretical computer science". 20:43:37 alise: He thinks the proof will need so unbelievably earth-shaking paradigm-shifting insights, TCS will be all about it for the rest of time. 20:43:41 alise: Goodness, midori is a nice browser. 20:43:46 fizzie: x_x 20:43:48 fizzie: Who said that? 20:43:57 pikhq: BTW, enable the Customise Toolbar extension to get rid of that irritating Sidepanel button. 20:43:58 alise: Himself, paraphrased a bit by myself. 20:44:00 It has... A few handy features, and nothing stupid getting in the way. 20:44:03 And yes, I did that. 20:44:15 (x >>= (return . g)) >>= (return . f) = x >>= \t -> (return (g t)) >>= return . f 20:44:21 alise: This is Scott Aaronson, if that wasn't clear. 20:44:30 cpressey: ah 20:45:03 = x >>= \t -> (return . f) (g t) = x >>= return . f . g, Q.E.D. 20:45:07 Strange. He's usually so smart. 20:45:54 alise: It was the immediately preceding bit from cpressey's quotation: "P≠NP is exactly the ‘expected’ answer! But proving that expected answer has been the central goal of the field for 40 years—not so much (in my opinion) because the answer itself is in serious doubt, as because of how much will need to be learned about computation on the way to the proof." 20:45:59 God I hate comments. 20:46:21 Comments are the peanut gallery of the internet. 20:46:41 Or just plain nuts. 20:47:01 Ha, 20:47:02 *Ha. 20:50:45 Why won't mplayer wooork 20:55:02 Now if only there were ways to disable some other features. 20:55:07 For instance, the URL completion. 20:55:07 pikhq: Like? 20:55:09 I no want. 20:55:11 pikhq: I like it :( 20:55:41 Does anyone know how to configure hardware audio volume from Linux? 20:55:44 As in literal speaker volume, 20:55:46 Still, least irritating browser... 20:55:46 *volume. 20:55:59 pikhq: I thought you liked Conkeror? 20:56:02 Or at least, least irritating 'normal' one. 20:56:20 alise: I do, but its UI sometimes clashes with sites. 20:59:47 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:00:48 alise: Since you used a theorem prover to help reformat your proof -- why not use it to check it? 21:03:55 I quite like how WebKit doesn't suck, in contrast to Gecko. 21:06:56 GAAAH 21:07:09 cpressey: I didn't use a theorem prover. 21:07:21 Okay, Midori blithely ignores fontconfig. I have no idea how to get it to use an un-suck font for Japanese. 21:07:22 Also, no existing theorem prover has a complete enough formalisation of the reals to have the zeta function. 21:08:30 http://www.youtube.com/bipbopbipbop 21:08:39 best channel ever 21:09:01 -!- fruitbag has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:09:20 Two Minute Sync Test Not Actually Rotated 21:09:21 "Or maybe it's rotated 360 degrees! How will you know? (Hint: use complex analysis.)" 21:10:05 Awesome, AV sync works. 21:10:25 alise: But surely you could pack about half of it into a lemma that only needs a rudimentary understanding of the reals, and auto-prove that, leaving the remainder easier to check. 21:10:37 Hooray for OSSv4! 21:10:47 Or, maybe not. 21:10:49 cpressey: you have to manually prove 21:10:52 it just checks the proof 21:10:55 (in an awkward format) 21:11:02 cpressey: Turns out theorem provers are a bit of a bitch. Anyway, my disproof is not very long. 21:11:04 Yes, I know - you've already *done* that though 21:11:05 It shouldn't be hard to verify. 21:11:10 No I haven't. 21:11:18 I only used a computer to simplify some simple expressions. 21:11:19 What have you written, if not a proof? 21:11:26 I've written a proof. 21:11:33 But not in the format it'd accept, which accepts no handwaving at all. 21:11:58 Yes, I'm only suggesting you rewrite (as much of it as you can) in that format. 21:12:29 Or I could just persuade oerjan to take a look at it. :) 21:13:08 alise, handwaving isn't really accepted anywhere in math. It isn't like people try to routinely hand-wave use of not yet proved hypotheses and so on. Oh wait, they are. 21:13:20 Handwaving is very much accepted for trivial things. 21:13:29 You think Wiles' FLT proof would have been simple if it proved every single thing it stated? 21:13:44 alise, yes I know. I was joking 21:13:50 Also, yeah, exactly, if my disproof is correct that's quite a bit of mathematics out the door... 21:13:56 So much stuff just implicitly depends on the Riemann hypothesis. 21:17:24 alise, indeed. 21:18:08 alise, but I would say the chances of it having a small but important flaw is more than 50%, considering how much time has been spent on trying to prove or disprove it 21:18:28 Wiles' first proof had a major flaw, but it was corrected. 21:18:37 true 21:19:19 alise, actually he had to redo large parts to fix it iirc 21:20:33 Large but not immense. 21:20:38 true 21:20:51 alise, but that is only because the complete proof was huge 21:21:24 Hooray, I've got HTML 5 video on youtube working. 21:21:43 pikhq: Me too; with what? 21:21:48 alise, iirc it proved one or two other open problems that it then used in the "main" proof. That kind of gives you some "modularity". 21:21:49 Or do you mean YouTube's HTML5 support? 21:21:54 I've got it working with mplayer. Nyaah. 21:21:54 Youtube's HTML5 support. 21:21:57 pikhq: It sucks. 21:22:10 I suggest using the YouTube Without Flash Auto userscript (with some tweaking). 21:22:14 Works fine with Midori (with some tweaking). 21:22:17 alise: Linky? 21:22:24 Supports native (likely mplayer), VLC and HTML 5. 21:22:25 (or pastebin of tweaks) 21:22:28 pikhq: I'll pastie you my updated version. 21:22:35 Sweet. 21:23:04 Still, just using