←2010-09-09 2010-09-10 2010-09-11→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:02:42 <pikhq> Turn off logger daemon, and voila, my phone works better.
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00:04:19 <alise> pikhq: xD
00:06:19 <pikhq> In fact, it functions... Usably.
00:06:39 <pikhq> Rather than sometimes-usably, sometimes-WHYTHEFUCKWONTYOUTAKEINPUTGOD
00:10:28 <olsner> when god takes input is up to god, I think
00:10:33 <olsner> haha
00:11:32 <oklofok> ahahahahhaa
00:16:53 <alise> Alcove.
00:18:10 <oklofok> ahaha
00:18:12 <oklofok> heheee :D
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00:19:41 <olsner> heehee
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00:55:42 <cpressey_> <ais523> you're right, unreachable code is a fatal compile error in Java
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00:55:58 <cpressey_> in Lua it's a syntax error to have a return before the end of a function
00:56:08 <cpressey_> take THAT, unreachable code!
00:56:15 <ais523> as in, in the grammar?
00:56:25 <cpressey_> as in, in the grammar, indeed.
00:57:02 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how far you could go along the lines of static analysis in the grammar
01:00:33 <cpressey_> Sgeo: HackFactor?
01:00:45 <cpressey_> Oh - FactorInHackEgo
01:01:13 <cpressey_> alise: Alcove?
01:01:32 <cpressey_> ais523: I've wondered that too -- I tried to do all of BASIC once, including types
01:01:32 <alise> Alcove.
01:01:58 <cpressey_> ais523: ... as an LL(1) grammar. Kind of hard when the type annotation comes after the variable name
01:02:14 <ais523> ouch
01:02:22 <cpressey_> Well, LL(2) maybe?
01:05:48 <ais523> I rather like LR(1)
01:05:55 <ais523> and even implemented it by hand, from a description of the algorithm
01:06:25 <ais523> (admittedly, I implemented it in VBA for Excel; it's one of the languages which I used to be rather good at, because I didn't know any better to avoid learning it)
01:06:29 <cpressey_> ais523: congratulations, you've gotten me thinking about it again. i bet you could design a practical language where the only error is syntax error (that is, "you stepped outside this BNF grammar"). perhaps "practical" is an overstatement though
01:06:40 <cpressey_> ouch
01:06:50 <cpressey_> i never liked LR parsers for some reason
01:07:12 <ais523> eventually I gave up because Microsoft broke backwards compatibility with every release of Excel
01:07:23 <ais523> e.g. it was no longer possible to hide the entire UI
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01:17:46 <Sgeo> ............Firefox now comes with an Urban Dictonary bookmark?
01:31:31 <alise> Unlikely.
01:31:35 <alise> Goodnight.
01:31:37 <alise> Bye.
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01:41:32 <wareya> I just got banned from a channel for saying faggot
02:15:10 <pikhq> Arbitration clauses: most evil thing?
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02:23:49 <pikhq> ... Motherfucking hell. So, corporations can give unlimited money to politicians... *And judges*.
02:25:19 <pikhq> I genuinely must leave this country.
02:25:45 <Sgeo> pikhq, o.O linky?
02:26:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: "Citizens United" sound familiar?
02:26:20 <pikhq> The decision applies to any elected position.
02:26:28 <pikhq> Which includes a large number of judges.
02:32:19 <Sgeo> Well, Slava dislikes lazy lists
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02:34:22 <Sgeo> I almost want to cry inside
02:37:40 <cpressey_> Sgeo: are you trying to make thue.c build, too?
02:38:32 <Quadrescence> are we talking about FACTOR
02:38:38 <Quadrescence> i hope not
02:39:03 <Sgeo> Quadrescence, why do you hate Factor?
02:39:09 <Quadrescence> I never said I did
02:39:24 <Quadrescence> But I get your drift
02:40:38 <Quadrescence> I just never saw it as very interesting and don't like that it was rewritten in C++ and don't like that slava took my power cord for my laptop
02:41:00 <Sgeo> ..?
02:41:35 <Quadrescence> While he was in Minneapolis, I went over to his place and hacked with him w/factor and stuff
02:42:28 <Quadrescence> But I left my power cable over there, and then he moved to New Zealand
02:43:50 <Quadrescence> Also I don't like that Factor must be bootstrapped. :(
02:44:10 <Sgeo> ^^not convincing someone who used to love Smalltalk
02:44:31 <Quadrescence> ^^not trying to convince just explaining why I don't like it
02:47:29 <Quadrescence> I don't really like the language idioms (cleave, chop, etc combinators), don't really like some of the directives ( ; INLINE ), etc etc
02:49:31 <Quadrescence> And I don't think a stack-centralized view of programming really scales well to multiprocessing.
02:56:48 <pikhq> Quadrescence: *Hardly anything* scales well to multiprocessing.
02:57:22 <Quadrescence> Some better than others
02:57:51 <pikhq> And I almost guarantee your favorite language doesn't scale well to multiprocessing.
02:58:09 <pikhq> What, incidentally, is your favorite language?
02:58:28 <Quadrescence> probably erlang
02:58:44 <pikhq> Okay, your favorite language scales somewhat well to multiprocessing.
02:58:50 <Quadrescence> I kid I kid
02:58:56 <Quadrescence> Probably common lisp
02:59:25 <pikhq> (though when it gets too complex you end up with, no joke, locks on top of the message-passing system. *groan*)
02:59:44 <Quadrescence> haha
03:00:12 <Sgeo> Factor has support for Erlang-style message passing
03:00:28 <Quadrescence> so does scheme, so does whatever
03:02:25 <pikhq> It's actually not a common thing. And besides which, message passing is not the magic solution to all multiprocessing woes.
03:02:48 <pikhq> The best solution is, of course, to allow a lot of solutions with different pros and cons to be easy to use.
03:03:28 <pikhq> (I'd say this is the approach taken by, most notably, Haskell. And though I'm not sure, I *strongly* suspect the same is true of Scheme and Common Lisp.)
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03:28:19 <cpressey_> thue.c is insane
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03:29:52 <Sgeo> Factor also has futures&promises
03:30:12 <Sgeo> I asked about STM, but since it currently only has co-operative threads...
03:31:25 <cpressey_> since it currently only has co-operative threads, STM... doesn't apply?
03:31:45 <cpressey_> you're supposed to cooperate?
03:34:11 <Sgeo> I might have misunderstood
03:34:33 <pikhq> I've yet to see STM really work outside of Haskell.
03:35:06 <pikhq> You could probably make it work well in something else with good metaprogramming, though.
03:40:35 <Sgeo> What's wrong with STM outside of Haskell?
03:41:23 <pikhq> It doesn't bloody work at all!
03:41:34 <pikhq> Whereas in Haskell, STM was a weekend project.
03:41:49 <pikhq> Literally.
03:43:01 <Sgeo> Was about to quote someone who said that Factor won't use multiple cores, then e said e was a troll
03:45:09 <cpressey_> so... the target and the rnum arrays are 1-based...
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03:46:52 <Sgeo> Hi mrjbq7
03:46:57 <mrjbq7> hi
03:47:02 <mrjbq7> just curious what this esoteric stuff is all about
03:47:21 <Sgeo> Esoteric programming languages
03:47:32 <Sgeo> Such as INTERCAL, Brainf***, Unlambda
03:47:33 <mrjbq7> You know, Factor's not an esoteric programming language (according to the list)
03:47:41 <Sgeo> Well, that's what's it's officially about
03:47:46 <mrjbq7> did you see the brainfuck interpreter in factor?
03:47:49 <cpressey_> mrjbq7: we talk about all kinds of things here
03:47:50 <Sgeo> Unofficially, it's about anything math or computersciency
03:48:11 <pikhq> Ununofficially, it's about being off-topic.
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03:48:26 <cpressey_> people with a common interest in esolangs, socializing about... whatever happens to be interesting to them
03:48:43 <pikhq> Which rarely happens to be esolangs.
03:48:44 <pikhq> :P
03:49:02 <mrjbq7> nice
03:49:24 <cpressey_> pikhq: I think I just fixed the *other two bugs* in thue.c, so... :P
03:49:38 <Sgeo> There is a language beginning with Fa that you'll be .. thought weird of if you say you like...
03:49:45 <cpressey_> (after bug #1 was pointed out to me)
03:49:53 <Sgeo> 6 letters
03:50:12 <cpressey_> Father. yeah, the one ais523 is working on.
03:50:22 <Sgeo> I was thinking of Falcon
03:50:23 <cpressey_> No, wait...
03:50:42 <Sgeo> And ais523's language is Feather. And if it ever comes to exist, it will be interesting
03:51:40 <cpressey_> Sgeo: I thought you were going to say Factor
03:52:11 <Sgeo> I was trying to imply it, although obviously wouldn't have meant it
03:52:57 <cpressey_> Oh no... actually there are only two bugs... that comparsion between char *'s is intentional!
03:55:02 <Sgeo> afk
04:08:19 <Sgeo> Falcon apparently has special casing for monads
04:09:35 <cpressey_> that's putting it mildly
04:10:13 <Sgeo> I don't actually know details
04:12:16 <Sgeo> afk
04:13:17 <cpressey_> fscanf(file, "%[^\n]", s); <-- I think DICE C conforms to POSIX in its implementation of this, while glibc (or whatever Ubuntu is using) doesn't.
04:14:21 <cpressey_> http://opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908775/xsh/fscanf.html says that between [ and ] are "bytes", not "character sequences". So this reads up to the first backslash or 'n'. Not the first linefeed.
04:14:31 <cpressey_> But, it's kind of ambiguous.
04:18:35 <cpressey_> why john didn't just use fgets is beyond me
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04:35:16 <cpressey_> ha ha HA
04:35:18 <cpressey_> http://i.imgur.com/Gp4Bh.png
04:43:21 <Gregor> cpressey: That's scary D-8
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05:07:51 <cpressey_> Gregor: why thank you
05:08:08 <Gregor> cpressey: Have some sheet music http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp6.pdf
05:09:33 <cpressey_> Gregor: er thank you, I will!
05:11:17 <cpressey_> Gregor: measure 245 QUITE HIGH
05:12:06 <Gregor> cpressey: Measure 250 HIGHEST NOTE ON THE PIANO
05:12:29 <cpressey_> i suspected it might be
05:13:54 <cpressey_> Gregor: also: measure 56 eighth rests ... QUITE LOW
05:14:50 <Gregor> Yeah, that's a bit of a Lilypond anomaly ...
05:15:21 <Gregor> When you have multiple voices, it insists on putting rests in weird places.
05:19:44 <madbr> looks hard to play
05:20:52 <madbr> 11 over 6 rhythm?
05:22:49 <Gregor> Well, it's not "easy" to play :P
05:23:58 <Gregor> That 11tuple (is that what you're referring to?) is a Chopin-tuple. It's just "stuff this arbitrary number of notes into the appropriate amount of space"
05:24:26 <Gregor> The rhythm doesn't really matter at that speed.
05:25:06 <Gregor> (Incidentally, that 11-tuple is far easier to play than either of the preceding two 9-tuples)
05:33:03 <madbr> man, I should write for solo piano
05:33:35 <madbr> probably the best way to, uh, actually get played
05:34:44 <Gregor> That's why I do it :P
05:34:52 <Gregor> It gets played because I play it X-P
05:37:30 <madbr> though I could also just build a set with live keyboard playing + sequenced music
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05:39:44 <madbr> I sequenced some wind quintet + drum + electrib bass song but I don't think I'll ever have to turn that into parts :D
05:43:22 <Gregor> That's tricky if your preferred musical style involves as much rubato as mine ... needs humans.
06:13:17 <madbr> yeah would be cool to play tracker music + physical modelled instruments with a dx7 as midi controller :D
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09:23:49 <oklofok> "<cpressey_> ais523: congratulations, you've gotten me thinking about it again. i bet you could design a practical language where the only error is syntax error (that is, "you stepped outside this BNF grammar"). perhaps "practical" is an overstatement though" <<< OKLOTALK doesn't have syntax errors OR runtime errors, and it's the most practical thing ever
09:28:22 <oklofok> "<cpressey_> Father. yeah, the one ais523 is working on." <<< someone make a time travel joke plz
09:29:29 <oklofok> "<Gregor> cpressey: That's scary D-8" <<< how?
09:31:28 <oklofok> "* lament (~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)" <<< good byes
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12:56:21 <oklofok> glio
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12:57:45 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what that program in the topic is and why it's been there for months.
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13:01:00 <fizzie> Looks like yet another Underload quine to me.
13:01:45 <oklofok> a was...?
13:01:48 <oklofok> oh
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13:01:57 <oklofok> no
13:02:03 <fizzie> Add-parens is a.
13:02:26 <oklofok> umm right, i executed double-ass wrong in my head
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13:02:53 <fizzie> ^ul (a(:^)*S):^
13:02:53 <fungot> (a(:^)*S):^
13:03:05 <oklofok> (or, actually i did it right, but i remembered it was siisii instead of a quine)
13:04:04 <oklofok> ^ul (aSS)aSS
13:04:05 <fungot> (aSS) ...out of stack!
13:04:08 <oklofok> right
13:04:17 <oklofok> :
13:04:25 <oklofok> ^ul (:aSS):aSS
13:04:25 <fungot> (:aSS):aSS
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13:04:37 <fizzie> Don't know why it made Ghost_Vacuum run away though.
13:06:26 <oklofok> : doubles, a parens, S prints, ^ runs, * concats?
13:06:50 <fizzie> Yes.
13:08:20 * oklofok got the quine
13:08:23 <oklofok> :P
13:08:34 <fizzie> And ~ swaps and ! drops, if I recall correctly.
13:08:46 <oklofok> i think you just might
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14:11:42 <cpressey_> oklofok: I realized after I wrote that that Befunge doesn't have syntax or runtime errors either
14:12:16 <cpressey_> and I think Gregor might be scared of computers without fans
14:12:20 <cpressey_> (i know i am)
14:12:37 <fizzie> cpressey: Right, and it's an incredibly practical language too.
14:12:42 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, why is that quine in the topic?
14:14:02 <fizzie> A mystery for the ages.
14:14:19 <fizzie> Possibly because the canonical ass-quine would get us blocked by all sorts of content filters?
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14:47:44 * Phantom_Hoover is utterly confused by today's Freefall.
14:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder what Sam was up to last time we saw him...
14:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (I have utterly forgotten)
14:52:07 <oklofok> underload is beautiful
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15:14:52 <cpressey> Anyone know if there are any Underload interpreters implemented in C, out there?
15:18:47 <Gregor> cpressey: My phone is a computer without a fan.
15:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> My brain is a computer without a fan.
15:21:02 <Phantom_Hoover> As is my calculator.
15:21:11 <cpressey> My brain is a fan without a phone.
15:25:04 <cpressey> Underload looks like it would really easy to do in C.
15:25:35 <cpressey> Well, not "really" easy, but not hard.
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15:48:57 <nooga> loki
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16:00:46 <cpressey_> Gregor: Do you have Thue on your phone? No? I rest my case, whatever it may have been.
16:01:45 <cpressey_> "Do you have Thue installed on your phone?" "Yes..." "Well you better let him off, then!"
16:07:44 <nooga> eh
16:09:18 <fizzie> Does that imply that this very much computer-shaped thing I've been using actually isn't a computer, since it doesn't happen to have Thue on it?
16:10:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
16:23:19 * Phantom_Hoover → X restart
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16:47:50 <cpressey_> Wow, Milo's and John's Wierd interpreters are... wholly mutually incompatible.
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17:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should actually do something with that Lisp OS thing alise and I were discussing...
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17:37:55 <Vorpal> cpressey_, how?
17:38:21 <Vorpal> cpressey_, cpressey: why are there two of you?
17:38:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like oerjan's evil twin.
17:38:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, really?
17:42:04 <cpressey> It's more like Gregor-W without the W
17:42:38 <cpressey> As for "how?", I'm still trying to think of an interesting was to answer that without context
17:52:00 <cpressey> *way
17:54:35 <Vorpal> cpressey, the context is "<cpressey_> Wow, Milo's and John's Wierd interpreters are... wholly mutually incompatible."
17:55:29 <cpressey> Vorpal: programs that run on one do not run on the other
18:01:16 <Gregor> cpressey: I use a BNC now :P
18:23:43 <nooga> Gregor: I'm thinking about generating multi-core compatible code in my compiler
18:24:07 <nooga> but i don't have an idea how to utilise multi-core potential in this problem, yet
18:27:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, for all programs?
18:28:29 <Vorpal> nooga, what is the problem in question?
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18:33:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, INJUSTICE
18:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
18:36:05 <myndzi\> |
18:36:06 <myndzi\> /\
18:36:17 <cpressey> Vorpal: all I've seen. I have yet to see a wierd-john/wierd-milo polyglot.
18:40:06 <nooga> Vorpal: generating parallell code for executing finite state automata
18:40:20 <Sgeo> cpressey, but why? What's so incompatible between them?
18:47:13 <cpressey> Sgeo: they have completely different interpretations of the language's semantics
18:47:40 <cpressey> nooga: you're going to parallelize regular expression matching? :)
18:48:14 <cpressey> Sgeo: Well, not completely maybe, but enough so that when you hit the first bend, BOOM
18:51:41 <nooga> cpressey: i thought about it but i can't imagine if it's really possible
18:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Compile the FSA into a regex, then use PPCRE and SBCL?
18:58:37 <cpressey> nooga: I... there was a good paper on this... no, actually it wasn't very good :) but it did point out that some algorithms seem basically unparallelizable -- running a finite-state automaton is one of them
18:59:45 <cpressey> if i can remember the name i'll look for it later
19:13:01 <oklofok> we could split the string in n parts, first one much longer than the rest, and start an automaton from each state for the latter parts, in initial state for the first part, of course this might not be very practical because if the automaton is deterministic, then there will probably be a huge number of states, so you can't really run from all of them; oh and when the first one catches up, you can drop all but one search in the second p
19:13:14 <oklofok> prolly didn't come through so i'll repeat half
19:13:15 <oklofok> not be very practical because if the automaton is deterministic, then there will probably be a huge number of states, so you can't really run from all of them; oh and when the first one catches up, you can drop all but one search in the second part, etc
19:18:04 <Gregor> If I pronounce a word IPA [faɪθ], how might you be inclined to spell that if you thought it was English?
19:18:15 <nooga> cpressey: but non deterministic ones could be parallelized
19:18:20 <nooga> i think
19:18:32 <nooga> still i'm talking about DFA
19:19:19 <oklofok> why is a nondeterministic one easier to parallelize?
19:19:44 <oklofok> well i guess that's a bit obvious
19:20:03 <oklofok> when you've branched too many times, give a few branches to other computers
19:20:18 <oklofok> assuming, again, a huge amount of states
19:20:52 <nooga> converting from NFA to DFA can caouse expoinental explosion of number of states
19:20:55 <nooga> sometimes
19:21:26 <nooga> but still DFA's are faster to execute in single process
19:21:59 <oklofok> it's definitely not faster to make an explicit subset construction than to recurse, usually
19:22:00 <nooga> i don't know it it's worth parallelizing
19:22:16 <nooga> is*
19:22:37 <oklofok> my argument for "no, they are not faster to execute in single process", but i probably misunderstand you
19:22:52 <nooga> i must do some research on that
19:23:00 <nooga> maybe even a paper
19:23:18 <oklofok> are you a RESEARCHER
19:23:27 <nooga> technically... no
19:24:23 <nooga> but i want my regex compiler to be as optimal as it can be
19:26:40 <nooga> an it could be my thesis
19:33:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, fithe?
19:33:31 <Gregor> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
19:33:40 <Gregor> There's a severe split of opinions on the i/y issue.
19:33:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Weeeeellll....
19:34:24 <pikhq> It should be pronounced "ghoti".
19:34:34 <Gregor> Goatee?
19:34:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I would pronounce "fithe" with a voiced 'th' normally.
19:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "fish"
19:34:40 <pikhq> Gregor: "Fish".
19:34:40 <Gregor> Right, ala tithe
19:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But English hasn't actually got a way of indicating voiced vs. unvoiced 'th'.
19:35:38 <Gregor> Sure it does, and .
19:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> *non-archaic
19:35:50 <Gregor> :P
19:36:02 <Gregor> I don't even remember which is which :P
19:36:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I would assume 'ð' is voiced, per the IPA.
19:36:43 <Gregor> Why doesn't the IPA use X-P
19:36:43 <nooga> oh
19:37:09 <nooga> þ and ð are icelandic
19:37:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And archaic English.
19:37:53 <Gregor> nooga: Only I thought?
19:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> That's where the "Ye Olde" thing comes from.
19:38:07 <nooga> also ð, it's pretty commonly used
19:38:16 <Gregor> And nobody kept wynn (which I don't even have a compose sequence for :P )
19:38:41 <Phantom_Hoover> What are the compose sequences for the others?
19:38:48 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: archaic English is in the same group as achaoic Norse and stuff
19:38:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
19:39:04 <nooga> i think that Norsk resembles English
19:39:05 <pikhq> Gregor: ð died out before þ.
19:39:06 <nooga> even now
19:39:28 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes, but I was talking about Icelandic :P
19:39:34 <pikhq> þ lasted up until Early Modern English (barely); I'm pretty sure ð died in Middle English.
19:39:48 <nooga> Icelandic still looks like ancient Norse
19:39:54 <nooga> but with new words
19:39:59 <pikhq> nooga: Actually, Old English was West Germanic, whereas Old Norse was North Germanic...
19:40:12 <nooga> like car and computer ;p
19:40:20 <pikhq> Granted, Old English then went on to borrow an absurd number of words from Old Norse.
19:40:26 <pikhq> ... And bits of grammar.
19:40:34 <Gregor> Also, French.
19:40:41 <pikhq> Gregor: That was later.
19:40:42 <Gregor> (Later)
19:40:56 <pikhq> Though at this time there *was* a good deal of Latin borrowing.
19:43:03 <pikhq> Hrm. English's syntax is actually typical of North Germanic languages. Curious.
19:44:31 <pikhq> Aaaah, English. The West Germanic language with North Germanic grammar and Romance vocabulary.
19:44:41 <nooga> ROMANCE
19:44:45 <nooga> so ROMANTIC
19:45:35 <nooga> when i looked at Bokmal course my first thought was sometnig like: "oh, it's like English but written differently"
19:46:17 <pikhq> You'd probably get that more with West Frisian.
19:46:25 <Gregor> Dutch is just English with a funny accent.
19:46:27 <pikhq> (which is, of course, somewhat useless to learn)
19:46:38 <Gregor> But, by that same token, German is just English with a funny accent.
19:46:42 <nooga> Gregor: yeah, something like that
19:46:44 <Gregor> And French is just English with a REALLY funny accent.
19:46:46 <nooga> no
19:46:51 <Gregor> :P
19:46:56 <nooga> German is totally f&(#$^$d up
19:47:16 <nooga> Polish is just Russian with funny accent - wrong
19:47:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It's brilliant to be angry in, though.
19:47:28 <Gregor> But Czech is just Polish with a funny accent.
19:47:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (German, that is)
19:47:41 <nooga> i speak perfect Polish but i can't understand Russians
19:47:51 <nooga> Gregor: that'd be true, it's hilarious
19:48:01 <pikhq> Finnish is just Japanese run through a cypher.
19:48:17 <nooga> Czech - serek = shit
19:48:31 <nooga> Polish - serek = (small) cheese
19:48:44 <pikhq> (it has superficially similar phonology. No clue why.)
19:48:49 <nooga> :D
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19:52:26 <pikhq> "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk." Aaah, obvious cognates.
19:53:28 <Gregor> Clearly perfect English.
19:54:13 <pikhq> :P
19:56:27 <nooga> tits?
19:59:53 <Sgeo> WHERE?
20:01:07 <Vorpal> hm, why do endings in many RPG seem like anticlimaxes? Not sure if it applies to other genres as well...
20:01:19 <Vorpal> computer RPGs that is
20:01:36 <fizzie> One of these days it could be time to expurgitate the hackiki poll away from the topic; I just went there and it was all "poll closed" to me.
20:02:09 <Vorpal> <pikhq> "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk." Aaah, obvious cognates. <-- this looks slightly Scandinavian?
20:02:21 <Vorpal> definitely not Swedish, Norwegian or Danish though
20:02:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could edit it
20:02:56 <Vorpal> the topic I mean
20:03:24 -!- Vorpal has set topic: The cheesy channel (cheddar) | (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:03:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's West Frisian.
20:04:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, no, cheddar!
20:04:06 <fizzie> No, I prefer the complaining to actual action. (And maybe it has a point still; I think it's possible to leave comments even if the poll's closed.)
20:04:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which is an Anglo-Frisian language... Other Anglo-Frisian languages include English and Scots.
20:04:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh wait, not a cheese name
20:04:31 <Vorpal> -_-
20:04:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, right.
20:04:49 <Vorpal> where is it spoken?
20:04:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, or dead?
20:05:13 <pikhq> Friesland and Groningnen, in the Netherlands.
20:05:17 <Vorpal> ah
20:05:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
20:05:31 <Vorpal> hm
20:05:32 <pikhq> Few hundred thousand speakers.
20:05:38 <Vorpal> I see
20:07:00 <pikhq> If you want to go into extinct languages, one can find languages closer still to English.
20:07:07 <Vorpal> right
20:07:34 <pikhq> Yola.
20:07:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway what did "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk." mean?
20:08:00 <Vorpal> I can guess at some words...
20:08:02 <pikhq> Or "Early Modern English without the vowel shift".
20:08:03 <Vorpal> but that is all
20:08:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Butter, bread, and green cheese is good English and good Fries."
20:09:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, how is it good English?
20:09:24 <pikhq> Say it out loud.
20:09:36 <pikhq> It sounds like English with a thick accent.
20:09:42 <Vorpal> aaah...
20:10:17 -!- fizzie has set topic: The cheesy channel (cheddar) | Also combûter programming | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? You should've voted: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:10:36 <pikhq> (the mutual comprehensibility of the two languages, though, is rather low... Mostly because English has a lot of Romantic vocabulary, and Frisian doesn't.)
20:10:51 <Vorpal> ah
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20:29:03 <cpressey> <nooga> cpressey: but non deterministic ones could be parallelized <-- indeed, I was assuming DFA but didn't say so. doh!
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21:08:56 <Sgeo> Are dynamically-scoped variables ethical?
21:11:12 <fizzie> Wasn't it so that Moses' stone slabs had some "thou shalt not dynamically scope" engravings?
21:11:45 <Sgeo> I mean, dynamically-scoped variables remind me of globals
21:12:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, foolish youth!
21:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> "1. Thou shalt not criticise any aspect of Lisp."
21:16:26 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, dynamic variables are in Lisp?
21:16:30 <Slereah> Did you read your SICP today?
21:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I am the Prophet of Things!
21:18:13 <fizzie> I do not like dynamic scopes and ham, I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
21:19:00 <Sgeo> What makes dynamic scopes different from globals?
21:19:14 <Sgeo> I mean, morally, not physically
21:20:19 <Slereah> They are an abomination in the eyes of the lord
21:25:18 <pikhq> Awesome. There's a movement to estabilish a World Parliament.
21:26:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Serious or hopeless?
21:26:31 <pikhq> Entirely serious.
21:27:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Hopeless?
21:27:18 <pikhq> Not at all.
21:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Only capable of creating a figurehead/
21:32:26 <Slereah> Most probably.
21:32:50 <pikhq> Actually, the proposal is to rework the UN to have an elected parliament running it.
21:33:05 <pikhq> ... And to make this system replace treaties as the primary form of international law.
21:35:28 <Vorpal> note to self: when making some hot chocolate, if using the box marked "100% pure coca powder" *add some sugar*
21:35:41 <Vorpal> once that is done it tastes lovely
21:35:53 -!- alise has joined.
21:35:59 <Vorpal> alise, hi
21:36:02 <pikhq> Supporting groups include: the Council of Europe.
21:36:17 <alise> HAXIOM
21:36:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, Council of Europe?
21:36:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, is this related to EU in any way?
21:37:02 <Vorpal> or just a confusing name?
21:37:04 <alise> Our Society to Segment.
21:37:14 <alise> Vorpal: The Council of Europe (French: Conseil de l'Europe) is one of the oldest international organisations working towards European integration, having been founded in 1949. It has a particular emphasis on legal standards, human rights, democratic development, the rule of law and cultural co-operation. It has 47 member states with some 800 million citizens. It is distinct from the European Union (EU) which has common policies, binding laws and only twenty
21:37:14 <alise> -seven members. The two do however share certain symbols such as their flag.
21:37:21 <Sgeo> alise, maybe you can explain to me
21:37:26 <alise> Vorpal: It's more general.
21:37:27 <cpressey> alise: Eightebeden Sgeo on the morality of dynamic scoping, or lack thereof, if you please.
21:37:35 <Sgeo> What is the moral difference between using dynamically-scoped variables and global variables
21:37:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: It is distinct from the EU, but one of the pan-Europe legilsative entities.
21:38:16 <alise> Sgeo: The latter is usually not such a good idea; the former is probably more "moral" (for instance, if you have a LET construct you can temporarily reassign it without ugliness) BUT will confuse EVERYONE.
21:38:21 <alise> Are you designing a language?
21:38:25 <Sgeo> alise, no
21:38:28 <alise> Then?
21:38:47 <Sgeo> Factor uses dynamically-scoped variables, and I'm not sure how much, but I have a feeling that it's quite a bit
21:38:56 <alise> Ah, Factor.
21:39:04 <alise> Then it's obscure enough that people who use it will understand it.
21:39:07 <pikhq> There are a *lot* of European legislative entities.
21:39:17 <alise> So: If used tastefully, far superior to global variables. Of course, global variables have a place, too...
21:39:22 <alise> (although not much of one)
21:39:27 * Sgeo deosn't want to see Factor remain obscure
21:39:40 <alise> Sgeo: Most programmers suck.
21:39:42 <alise> Deal.
21:39:54 <cpressey> Factor will never, ever become mainstream. Sorry
21:40:02 <alise> 18:32:19 <Sgeo> Well, Slava dislikes lazy lists ;; define more precisely
21:40:04 <Sgeo> I will show the benefits of Factor to AW programmers
21:40:12 <Sgeo> AW bot programmers
21:40:20 <alise> Sgeo: Yeah, thing is, from what I've seen of AW and AW people and AW-related code, they're fucking retarded.
21:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like an orgy of Sgeo's fetishes.
21:40:29 <cpressey> Anything remotely Forth-tinted will never, ever become mainstream. Sorry
21:40:37 <alise> I would rather hire someone straight out of Java-school.
21:40:50 <Sgeo> alise, you only know of _one_ person besides me
21:40:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Who???
21:41:08 <Sgeo> The other person in the project
21:41:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the Other Programmer on Sgeo's C# project
21:41:30 <pikhq> Oh, hey. European Parliament also called for a World Parliament.
21:41:32 <Phantom_Hoover> What's Sgeo's C# project?
21:41:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Why is it in C#?
21:41:43 <cpressey> Hey, if I install Mono on my Ubuntu box, will it come with an ILASM.EXE-alike?
21:41:48 <cpressey> Sgeo: TELL ME IT WILL
21:42:09 <Sgeo> cpressey, I have no idea
21:42:10 <alise> Sgeo: Anyway, if it's anything like Second Life, and since at least that has interesting stuff, dating from /after/ people figured out how to make 3D VR simulations not completely and utterly suck, I would expect its programming user-base-subset to be more intelligent, rather than driven by ridiculous nostalgia.
21:42:13 <cpressey> snap
21:42:23 <alise> Even if the quality is superior, I expect it will not be by much.
21:42:26 <alise> cpressey: probably
21:42:31 <alise> Dis/Assembling CIL Code - Mono
21:42:31 <alise> ilasm: The Mono Assembler can be given disassembled text, and it creates an assembly file. This is very important, because many compilers don't create the ...
21:42:39 <alise> ilasm(1): Mono IL assembler - Linux man page
21:42:40 <alise> ilasm is the Mono ILAsm assembler. You can pass one or more options to drive the compiler, and a set of source files.
21:42:40 <alise> linux.die.net/man/1/ilasm - Cached - Similar
21:42:40 <alise> Ilasm - Mono Wiki
21:42:40 <alise> 9 Apr 2008 ... The Mono IL assembler. Comparable to the Microsoft ilasm.exe tool.
21:42:41 <alise> mono.wikia.com/wiki/Ilasm - Cached - Similar
21:42:43 <alise> cpressey: try google
21:42:45 <alise> :P
21:42:53 <pikhq> alise: Second Life's code sucks horridly.
21:42:54 <cpressey> Ok, so, "Mono IL assembler"
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21:43:03 <pikhq> It is perhaps the worst C++ I have ever seen.
21:43:10 <alise> pikhq: I mean people who program things for Second Life.
21:43:14 <pikhq> Ah.
21:43:23 <alise> And if you imagine how bad that code is, imagine how incorrigibly terrible Active Worlds code is going to be.
21:43:28 <pikhq> Okay, yeah.
21:43:32 <alise> cpressey: == CIL
21:43:47 <cpressey> alise: I should hope so
21:44:16 <cpressey> Mono: a project to port .NET to different architectures and to gratuitously change the VM language it is built on. Hey, not a bad idea!
21:44:19 <Sgeo> Should I work on Smalltalk bindings for AW instead?
21:44:29 <Sgeo> Well, I'm still planning to after Pharo 1.2 comes out
21:44:34 <Sgeo> Maybe
21:45:48 <alise> NO BINDINGS FFS
21:45:55 <alise> I am fucking sick of hearing about you asking the question
21:46:01 <alise> "SHOULD I MAKE AW BINDINGS FOR [random language]?"
21:46:12 <alise> I have heard it like threeee thouusand fuckinggg timesssss
21:46:18 <alise> In like three minutes
21:47:08 <Sgeo> Considering how poorly maintained my bindings for Python are, and how that's what most people are interested in..
21:47:43 <nooga> alise: should i compile perl with my regexp compiler?
21:47:48 <alise> I know I talk about random shit some time, but if ANYONE in here is actually interested in the language-binding preferences of people who use Active Worlds, PLEASE make some sort of noise now.
21:47:52 <alise> *sometimes,
21:47:55 <alise> nooga: Yes. Very yes.
21:48:03 * Sgeo makes enough noise to deafen everyone.
21:48:13 <alise> Sgeo: Allow me to introduce you to #sgeo!
21:48:14 <nooga> that's (!) doable
21:48:20 <alise> * Topic for #sgeo is: Sacred Geometry Topcis
21:48:23 <alise> You'll be at home there.
21:48:25 <pikhq> alise: I want a world parliament dammit!
21:48:29 <pikhq> ... Also a pony.
21:48:37 <nooga> boobs
21:48:40 <alise> pikhq: I dunno, I'm not much fond of that idea.
21:48:57 <alise> pikhq: It has the potential to be very... insidious.
21:49:23 <pikhq> alise: Alternately, I want to estabilish a totalitarian state and eliminate everyone responsible for evil.
21:49:27 <pikhq> :P
21:49:27 * Sgeo drags alise bac into #sgeo
21:49:33 <Sgeo> ...that sounds very, very wrong
21:49:35 <Sgeo> :(
21:49:57 <cpressey> Oh man, sacred geometry.
21:49:58 <alise> Yeah, what the hell is bac?
21:50:09 <alise> pikhq: And then you go mad with power.
21:50:10 <cpressey> Thank YOU, Pythagoras, for having WEIRD BELIEFS.
21:50:24 <pikhq> alise: Yes, but only once the evil people are gone.
21:50:37 <alise> pikhq: Thus creating a new evil person!
21:50:42 <pikhq> Meaning that the inevitable toppling of power ends with the assholes gone.
21:50:44 <pikhq> :P
21:51:11 * pikhq clones himself, so the clone can be the dictator and he can be the freedom fighter
21:51:15 <pikhq> PERFECTION
21:51:30 * Sgeo wonders if he could make an analytical engine in AW
21:51:39 <Sgeo> Would be easier than a full-blown 8-bit computer
21:51:42 <Sgeo> Was that design TC?
21:52:36 <alise> pikhq: Coup d'État of the Week
21:52:48 <alise> (Is that the correct capitalisation?)
21:53:16 <pikhq> (yes)
21:53:18 <pikhq> *sigh*
21:53:25 <alise> So! I hereby proclaim Ubuntu Netbook Edition INTERESTING
21:53:26 <pikhq> I had forgotten that the US has private ambulances.
21:53:29 <alise> *INTERESTING.
21:53:35 <alise> Its WM is ratpoison with gradients.
21:53:40 <alise> And, uh, the rat.
21:53:42 <alise> Seriously.
21:53:45 <alise> Instead of windows, it has tabs.
21:54:25 <pikhq> Privatised essential services. *sigh*
21:54:46 <alise> (The tabs become just the icon when not focused to save screen real-estate. The window takes up the whole screen apart from the small bar at the top. Below all Windows is a large-scale version of the GNOME menu plus a directory listing of ~ and a list of volumes (clicking them opens Nautilus).
21:54:52 <alise> *Nautilus).)
21:55:01 <alise> It's great on, uh, a netbook.
21:56:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Sacred geometry!
21:57:28 <alise> It is rather disturbing how few unmaximised windows I use.
22:01:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:02:18 <pikhq> Wow. Some fundamentalist atheist sued the US, alleging violations of the First Amendment, in response to the crew of Apollo 8 reading from the Book of Genesis...
22:02:38 <pikhq> The suit was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction.
22:03:06 <alise> "fundamentalist atheist" ;; I prefer the term "moron latching on to atheism as a way to get attention".
22:03:34 <pikhq> "Fundamentalist" in attachment to any religious belief tends to mean "moron latching on to X as a way to get attention".
22:03:36 <alise> A "fundamentalist atheist" would be one who intolerantly adheres to the most anal-retentive form of atheism in the strongest way. So... he'd just be REALLY ADAMANT that god doesn't exist.
22:03:54 <alise> It just happens that "fundamentalist [actual religion]" usually means "batshit crazy".
22:04:23 <alise> pikhq: I think Buzz Aldrin taking the Communion was objectionable, though.
22:04:37 <alise> I don't much like the idea of even a small amount of alcohol in an astronaut.
22:04:54 <pikhq> "Fundamentalism" for religious beliefs is actually typically divergent from the original religious beliefs in question...
22:05:03 <alise> Oh, the one who sued is the founder of American Atheists.
22:05:17 <alise> I'm fairly sure that lawsuit was to prove a point.
22:05:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:07:04 <alise> "The idea of this entry was to do the impossible: a 1K remake of the famous WOLF5K that rocked the final edition of the5K. Does not feature guns, violence: in WOLF1K, there is no room for guns or any form of violence."
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22:11:11 <Sgeo> alise, someone in Crawl got 267 runes
22:11:45 <alise> I totally know what that means.
22:11:57 <cpressey> omg i want 267 runes
22:12:05 <cpressey> i totally have no idea what it means
22:12:10 <Sgeo> YOu need 3 runes to get to the Realm of Zot, which has the Orb of Zot
22:12:32 <Sgeo> Runes are collected at the ends of.. some places
22:12:33 <cpressey> but i can make guesses which likely conform to the general idea, and cannot possibly make guesses the conform to the specifics
22:12:39 <Sgeo> And in the abyss, and in Pandemonium I think
22:12:45 <Sgeo> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/78291/morgue-78291-20100518-161512.txt
22:15:24 <Sgeo> Check out the notes!
22:15:44 <Vorpal> * Sgeo deosn't want to see Factor remain obscure <-- but they have broken "monads".
22:15:59 <Sgeo> Broken?
22:15:59 <Vorpal> well, not really broken. More like "not really monads at all"
22:16:00 <Sgeo> Howso?
22:16:08 <Sgeo> Howso?
22:16:13 <cpressey> I think Vorpal might be thinking of Falcon
22:16:33 <cpressey> And as I said, we need a language called "Falctorn"
22:16:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh right
22:17:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, that explains it
22:17:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, yeah factor is pretty good.
22:17:32 <cpressey> Factor doesn't excite me much, but it's nowhere near Falcon.
22:17:51 <cpressey> Clojure doesn't excite me much either
22:17:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, well... the first two letters and the next to last. And c moved around.
22:18:17 <cpressey> Vorpal: ok, ok, in terms of *edit distance*...
22:18:18 <Vorpal> the edit distance isn't h uge
22:18:23 <Vorpal> huge*
22:18:49 <Vorpal> cpressey, I was actually thinking hamming distance, then switching to edit distance when I realised there was a c that could be moved around
22:19:25 <cpressey> So what languages do excite me?
22:19:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, I hope befunge98 does!
22:19:37 <alise> Vorpal: it doesn't.
22:19:50 <Vorpal> alise, what doesn't what?
22:20:00 <alise> (Even if it did in 1998, it's been 12 fucking years!)
22:20:13 <alise> Vorpal: unless I am severely mistaken, Befunge-98 does not excite cpressey.
22:20:17 <Vorpal> ah
22:20:33 <Vorpal> yeah 12 years might be stretching it a bit
22:21:12 <pikhq> Befunge-110, however...
22:21:18 <cpressey> I wasn't actually thinking of including esolangs in that set
22:23:05 <cpressey> I was actually thinking of C.
22:23:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: The usual edit distance (Levenshtein one) only counts substitutions, additions and deletions, so you need two operations to "move the c around", and then a substitution to change t/l; that's larger than just the two substitutions, so it doesn't matter whether you use the Hamming or Levenshtein distance.
22:24:29 <pikhq> alise: So. I have concluded that xkcd is busy being brilliant, not lame.
22:24:42 <alise> <pikhq> Befunge-110, however...
22:24:47 <alise> Is abandoned, afaik. Or do you mean Vorpal's version?
22:24:54 <fizzie> (This has been another episode of the continuing series of "focus on the unimportant details only". Thank you.)
22:24:57 <alise> cpressey: I'll just answer your questions for you in future, kay.
22:25:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
22:25:03 <pikhq> alise: He is subverting the expectation that a comic should be "funny", by trying his hardest to not be funny.
22:25:08 <cpressey> alise: okay. HEY WAIT
22:25:22 <alise> pikhq: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
22:25:30 <alise> I was about to say "but the latest comic-"
22:25:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, nice one
22:27:22 <alise> Wow, pikhq, with all that Vorpal-pressure you'd better keep delivering the yuks, or we'll just call you xkcd 2: Electric Boogaloo, and maintain an xkcd 2: Electric Boogaloo sucks blog.
22:27:39 <alise> If that fails, we'll have to start xkcd 2: Electric Boogaloo sucks 2: Electric Boogaloo.
22:28:04 <alise> And then we'll get arrested by the Breakin'-sequel-title-ripoffs police.
22:28:52 <pikhq> *Such* a bizarre sequel title.
22:29:21 <Vorpal> alise, Vorpal-pressure?
22:29:23 <fizzie> "Vorpal pressure" sounds like a fakey physics term, though. "The vorpal pressure of the vacuum destabilization chamber is rising!"
22:29:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice
22:29:41 <alise> fizzie: We're leaking warp plasma!
22:29:52 <pikhq> Guess the Five Iron Frenzy album was more bizarre, though. What with their 4th album claiming to be "Five Iron Frenzy 2".
22:30:09 <Sgeo> alise, I'm gonna play with FightClub
22:30:17 <cpressey> OK. For the record. I never planned a Befunge-110. Someone else might've. I idly thought Befunge-111 might be a good idea and started writing a spec. I shelved it.
22:30:22 <alise> Sgeo: Have fun with that.
22:30:25 <alise> cpressey: Ah, yes, 111.
22:30:36 <alise> -110 was Vorpal's anal-retentive "clarification" of -98.
22:30:40 <alise> *-111.
22:30:43 <alise> Consistency must prevail!
22:30:44 <cpressey> Recently I had more dangerous thoughts about what a Befunge-111 could be. I never told anyone about them. I have effectively shelved them too.
22:30:55 <alise> More dangerous than replacing fingerprints with URIs?
22:31:08 <Sgeo> shadow dragon > orb guardian
22:31:17 <cpressey> alise: Hard to compare
22:31:29 <alise> cpressey: I assume "dangerous" means "utterly ludicrous".
22:31:30 <pikhq> cpressey: Was it computable?
22:32:02 <Vorpal> alise, um... I was trying to make something that didn't leave 1/3rd unspeced... And 98 and t speced in a way that would basically make it not work
22:32:05 <cpressey> Yes, it was computable. No, they weren't quite ludicrous enough. Thus shelved.
22:32:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:33:25 <cpressey> OK, O
22:33:30 <cpressey> whhh
22:33:32 <alise> Vorpal: Unfortunately, only ten people ever had the desire to implement -98, only five got far enough for the ambiguously specified (not unspecified; it didn't have sections missing or anything) parts; only four decided to keep going, and they easily found consensus, e.g. from Mycology.
22:33:47 <alise> If you pick on those hypothetical example numbers, I will shoot you.
22:34:01 <cpressey> I prefer to think of 98 as being "goobishly specified"
22:34:18 <Vorpal> alise, they are underestimates yes. And shoot if you want. I have protection
22:34:56 <Vorpal> alise, I think there should be 5 for the last group
22:35:14 <alise> cpressey: Please kill this man.
22:39:07 <cpressey> alise: I can't. I'm trapped in WOLF1K where there is no room for violence.
22:40:32 <cpressey> If you really want to know, one idea was to abandon fingerprints in favour of sucking in all of Unicode as the instruction set.
22:41:57 <cpressey> So, there's no need to push the semantics of TURT onto A-Z. Just start using, I dunno, ᓀᐦᐃᔭᐍᐏᐣ, and you've started manipulating the turtle.
22:43:11 <fizzie> Without the fabled mythical central repository, that sounds like a very conflicty solution, unless you cultivate a culture of deliberately avoiding trying to make the instruction characters meaningful.
22:43:44 <cpressey> And the spec wouldn't define any of this. It would just define a distributed standards process: if you want some instructions to do something, start a blog, use the phrase "Befunge-111 Standards Proposal" in the title of your blog posts so I can find them with Google, and find civilized ways to deal with conflicts.
22:44:00 <cpressey> s/I can/implementors can/
22:44:08 <fizzie> Also, ☃.
22:44:40 <fizzie> (For the "reduce temperature" operation of the weather control machine extension.)
22:44:43 <cpressey> fizzie: I don't know what to do about combining characters. Disallow them, probably, as they could "combine" in 4 directions.
22:45:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, oooh that sounds nice
22:45:28 <cpressey> fizzie: Amazing that my font *has* then, when it barfs on simple Cree syllabary.
22:45:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, you could have them do different things in different directions
22:45:37 <cpressey> s/then/that/
22:45:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, actually more than 4
22:46:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, remember x
22:46:11 <Vorpal> (set delta)
22:46:41 <Vorpal> would be tricky to write though
22:46:49 <fizzie> Unicode combining characters come after the base character, anyway, which sounds a bit awkward. You'd need to do a bit of lookahead, if you'd want to assign semantics on the combination, instead of the combining characters separately.
22:46:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, but you could do code that depends on delta
22:47:08 <cpressey> see this is all why "disallow"
22:47:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm
22:47:41 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:47:45 <fizzie> If the combining characters came before the base character, you could let them combine to whatever the IP encounters next. Though then you'd need normalization if you wanted a "a + combining diaeresis" always do the same thing as ä.
22:47:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, TRDS
22:48:04 <Vorpal> just go back in time instead of lookahead
22:48:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:50:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> How do we get the Pope out of the Popemobile long enough to be able to snag his hat?
22:50:52 <fizzie> Put out some bait. What do popes eat?
22:51:30 <fizzie> I should be stripping more characters out of the C-style constants b93 program; it's a crying shame that currently FORTRAN, of all languages, is 12 characters (out of 115) more concise than Befunge, using the common "ais523 anagolf C style constants" (AACSC) metric.
22:52:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has joined.
22:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover__> I have it!
22:54:49 <fizzie> Maybe you could search for "How to get the Pope out of the Popemobile?" in gamefaqs or something; the question *really* sounds like an adventure game hint.
22:54:52 <Phantom_Hoover__> We'll dangle some Eucharist crackers from one RC plane, then when the Pope starts running after the tasty demigod flesh, we snag the hat with the high-speed RC plane!
22:55:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:55:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:56:22 <fizzie> You have to take into account the half-life of god-flesh; doesn't it decay back to cookies pretty fast?
22:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, one of my father's cousins is a Catholic priest...
22:57:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Or I could go to my local church and pretend to have had a revelation.
22:58:52 <fizzie> I asked Wolfram|Alpha for "half-life of eucharist", but it just told me the word itself has a scrabble score of 14. Again a letdown.
22:59:11 <alise> No match for kwyjibo.
23:01:25 <fizzie> Fortunately, a google books result of a Webster's dictionary has the following: "The bread and wine of the Eucharist. ♦ synonyms: 1. element, basic, ... has a mass number of 272 and a half-life of 1.5 milliseconds. element 112 n. ..."; I'm sure there's nothing important in the "..." part. (But with a half-life of 1.5 milliseconds, and considering how long it usually takes for people to chomp down, there's quite a large percentage of cookie-dough instead of go
23:01:25 <fizzie> d-flesh in what people eat.)
23:01:30 <oklopol> "<fizzie> Put out some bait. What do popes eat?" <<< i just know he shits in the woods
23:01:42 <fizzie> oklopol: Does he shit prime numbers, though?
23:02:00 <fizzie> (A "prime-number pooping pope" javascript page might get some angry comments.)
23:02:28 <alise> Linking to what everyone is already referencing time! http://alpha61.com/primenumbershittingbear/
23:03:42 <fizzie> One of the few things that make me proud of my nationality, that.
23:03:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, so wait, the Pope has a god Geiger counter?
23:04:36 <fizzie> Well, he's the *Pope*, I would assume he can detect this sort of stuff.
23:04:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm.
23:04:49 <fizzie> If not, they surely teach that at the pope school.
23:05:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, let's get a REALLY FAST RC plane.
23:05:13 <fizzie> Wasn't there the whole infallibility thing too.
23:05:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, what about that Eucharist that still needed safe disposal by trained Church personnel ages after the communion it was stolen from?
23:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, surely the Pope could detect someone dangling some god-flesh decay products from a plane above him?
23:06:58 <fizzie> But would he go after that? Well, maybe he would.
23:07:00 <Sgeo> <3 MST3k
23:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I have it!
23:09:32 <fizzie> Amazon has a paperback called "How to be Pope: What to Do and Where to Go Once You're in the Vatican"; but that doesn't sound directly applicable to hatheism.
23:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> The plane has a lithium battery; we pack the god-flesh around this. The Pope can use his infallibility in religious matters to detect this threat of spreading dangerous god waste over a large crowd of the righteous, so he runs outside the Popemobile in a heroic effort to shoot it down safely, at which point we fly the RC interceptor in and snag the hat
23:10:00 <fizzie> Misread that as "the pope has a lithium battery"; was going to ask for a citation.
23:11:26 <fizzie> A duracell pope: it just keeps going, and going, and going, and going...
23:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> We then crash-land the bait near the guards who are, at this point, trying to shoot down the plane with the hat. The guards now need to be degodtaminated by the Pope, so noöne can stop us!
23:15:49 <fizzie> Who are these "we" you're talking about, anyway? Or is this the royal we?
23:16:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Me and my aviation nut friend.
23:17:02 <alise> A nut in rather more ways, I expect.
23:17:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
23:17:42 <Phantom_Hoover> But we don't want sane people in Operation Hatheist.
23:18:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, also, if this fails, you shall have to attempt to steal the hat somewhere in England.
23:18:18 <fizzie> According to a magazine, this is what happens if someone proves that P=NP:
23:18:20 <fizzie> "Computers would acquire mind-boggling powers such as near-perfect translation, speech recognition and object identification; the hardest questions in mathematics would melt like butter under computation’s power; and current computer security methods would be as easy to crack as a TSA-approved suitcase lock."
23:18:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No.
23:18:32 <alise> fizzie: Near-perfect translation XD
23:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Fine, I'll have to ask ais.
23:18:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's ... rather unflinchingly legal.
23:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, he lives in one of the cities on the tour.
23:18:55 <fizzie> They don't exactly specify how it will come to pass, just that it will.
23:19:08 <alise> He won't even break the rules of a nomic game!
23:19:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, ais is?
23:19:11 <cpressey> like buttah
23:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
23:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's just a minor case of hat-stealing.
23:20:10 <cpressey> You just give the judge a false name after they haul you in, pay your 20 pound fine, and it's back to the Drones that afternoon!
23:20:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, that depends on the constant and/or factor
23:20:46 <Vorpal> it could be be "P but with horribly bad constant" for example
23:21:13 <cpressey> O(n^7!!)
23:21:15 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, because P = NP would give us a P but with a horribly bad constant algorithm for magical translation.
23:21:25 <alise> You are both correct and missing the point entirely!
23:21:30 <alise> Conflagulations.
23:21:35 <Vorpal> alise, that *could* happen. Not saying that it would
23:21:47 <alise> You do not understand what P = NP is. Or... translation...
23:22:18 <Vorpal> alise, oh that? I meant in regards to security
23:22:31 <Vorpal> alise, the translation is obviously non-sensical
23:23:09 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't think I had to point that out
23:23:12 <alise> Then you only pointed out something that we ... already totally knew.
23:23:17 <alise> You really didn't have to point that out, either.
23:23:25 <Vorpal> alise, Captain Obvious at your service
23:23:48 <alise> A figure used to represent a sort of idiocy, I might add.
23:24:15 <Vorpal> alise, yes I know.... I was being sarcastic
23:24:24 <Vorpal> night →←↓↑
23:24:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, no, that's completely wrong!
23:24:55 <alise> Maybe Vorpal got lost in the wrong direction and got ripped apart by dimensions.
23:24:57 <alise> We can only hope.
23:26:10 <fizzie> ↑, ↑, ↓, ↓, ←, →, ←, →, B, A. (I wonder if that will do anything in this channel.)
23:26:34 <alise> You forgot to select two-player mode and start the game.
23:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, is the article in question http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/63252/title/Crowdsourcing_peer_review?
23:26:50 <alise> fizzie: Try pressing START.
23:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, how do you get the up and down arrows?
23:27:49 <alise> fizzie: Hmm?
23:28:31 * cpressey determines a konami code bot to be strictly necessary
23:28:50 <alise> fizzie hasn't pressed START yet.
23:29:10 <fizzie> I can't decide whether I want to press select first.
23:29:25 <fizzie> I hope it doesn't time out on me.
23:29:40 -!- UnicornRainbow has joined.
23:29:43 <UnicornRainbow> YOU HAVE LITTLE TIME REMAINING.
23:29:46 <UnicornRainbow> ACT QUICKLY.
23:29:48 -!- UnicornRainbow has left (?).
23:29:52 <fizzie> Gaaa!
23:29:53 <fizzie> SELECT, START.
23:29:58 <fizzie> There goes.
23:30:01 -!- UnicornRainbow has joined.
23:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> UnicornRainbow, why the Mysterious Sock?
23:30:21 -!- SuperMagicYay has joined.
23:30:22 <Sgeo> That is one old bear
23:30:23 <Sgeo> IE5?
23:30:28 <fizzie> I did hear the "bling" sound, I guess it did something.
23:30:38 <SuperMagicYay> UnicornRainbow: WE WILL FIGHT CRIME.
23:30:38 <UnicornRainbow> SuperMagicYay: WE WILL FIGHT CRIME.
23:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, should I step up Operation Hatheist to the next level?
23:30:50 <SuperMagicYay> UnicornRainbow: I CONCUR.
23:30:51 <UnicornRainbow> SuperMagicYay: I CONCUR.
23:30:59 <SuperMagicYay> fizzie: ZZZZZIP!
23:31:00 <UnicornRainbow> fizzie: FWOOOM!
23:31:16 <SuperMagicYay> [15 LIVES]
23:31:17 <UnicornRainbow> [15 LIVES]
23:31:29 <UnicornRainbow> NOW YOU HAVE 30 EXTRA LIVES.
23:31:29 <SuperMagicYay> NOW YOU HAVE 30 EXTRA LIVES.
23:31:45 <fizzie> Yay.
23:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> UnicornRainbow, can I fight crime?
23:32:12 <SuperMagicYay> HAPPINESS
23:32:12 <UnicornRainbow> HAPPINESS
23:32:13 <UnicornRainbow> IS
23:32:14 <SuperMagicYay> IS
23:32:16 <UnicornRainbow> EXCELLENT
23:32:17 <SuperMagicYay> EXCELLENT
23:32:28 <SuperMagicYay> Phantom_Hoover: PERHAPS.
23:32:29 <UnicornRainbow> Phantom_Hoover: PERHAPS.
23:32:33 <SuperMagicYay> YOU MUST DIE FIRST.
23:32:33 <UnicornRainbow> YOU MUST DIE FIRST.
23:32:40 * Phantom_Hoover dies
23:33:07 * Phantom_Hoover comes back to life with god-radiation from a god-flesh reactor
23:33:15 * Phantom_Hoover is as unto a god
23:33:28 * Phantom_Hoover uses his power to steal the Pope's hat
23:33:48 <SuperMagicYay> FOOL.
23:33:49 <UnicornRainbow> FOOL.
23:35:09 <SuperMagicYay> fizzie: YOU WILL DIE NOW.
23:35:09 <UnicornRainbow> fizzie: YOU WILL DIE NOW.
23:35:30 <fizzie> Ut-oh.
23:36:14 <UnicornRainbow> fizzie: MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
23:36:14 <SuperMagicYay> fizzie: MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
23:36:18 <UnicornRainbow> OH MY WORD
23:36:24 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, quick!
23:36:35 <UnicornRainbow> OUR SHAME -- IMMEASURABLE
23:36:36 * Phantom_Hoover aims his god-beam at Finland
23:36:43 <SuperMagicYay> OUR LOVE OF FINLAND -- TARNISHED
23:36:51 <UnicornRainbow> OUR ONLY HOPE -- RITUALISED SUICIDE
23:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> A GASER!
23:36:52 -!- UnicornRainbow has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:36:55 <SuperMagicYay> I CONCUR.
23:36:57 -!- SuperMagicYay has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:37:43 <fizzie> I think the moral of the story is that I should perhaps be more careful with them buttons.
23:38:39 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, how do you get the up and down arrows?<-- AltGr-y and AltGr-Y
23:39:24 <Phantom_Hoover> LIES
23:39:41 <alise> yeah untrue, dirty Swede
23:39:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's u
23:39:52 <alise> not y
23:39:55 <alise> (and U, not Y)
23:40:01 <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, we've now got a horde of deified Finns coming for us!
23:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ACTION MUST BE TAKEN
23:40:19 <Vorpal> err oops
23:40:26 <Vorpal> alise, indeed
23:40:40 <Vorpal> ← is altgr-y
23:40:51 <Vorpal> ııııııııııııııııııııııııııı
23:40:59 <Vorpal> 1ıiI
23:41:01 <Vorpal> hm
23:41:04 <Vorpal> interesting char
23:41:13 <Vorpal> altgr-shift-i
23:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC it's one of the types in the STLC.
23:41:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Aren't you thinking of 1?
23:41:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, stlc?
23:41:45 <alise> Presumably the type of one inhabitant.
23:41:50 <alise> Vorpal: simply typed ...
23:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, pah!
23:42:00 <Vorpal> alise, ah
23:42:00 * alise decides that predicate words shouldn't pop their argument in concatenative languages
23:42:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's called 1 because it has one inhabitant...
23:42:09 <alise> Booleans are 2, etc.
23:42:12 <alise> This is set theory stuff.
23:42:21 <fizzie> > take action
23:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it is indeed.
23:42:22 <fizzie> I don't know the word "action".
23:42:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, what's the member of 1, then?
23:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I MUST KNOW
23:45:57 <alise> unit
23:45:59 <alise> or tt
23:46:03 <alise> or whatever you want to call it
23:46:07 <alise> in haskell it's () :: ()
23:46:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:46:56 <fizzie> ı ("latin small letter dotless i") is used at least in Turkish.
23:48:09 <fizzie> They also have a dotted capital I.
23:49:44 <oklopol> HATHEIST <<< does this mean a person who believes in hats, or an especially hateful atheist
23:50:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:51:09 <fizzie> It's a bit problematic, since when case-mapping, often i -> I and I -> i (since that's what is generally expected), even in systems where ı -> I and İ -> i properly.
23:51:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, no, one who tries to steal the hat of the pope iirc?
23:51:25 <cpressey> those whacky turks
23:51:34 <Vorpal> or maybe that was operation hatheist
23:51:38 <Vorpal> night →→→→
23:55:56 <oklopol> "* alise decides that predicate words shouldn't pop their argument in concatenative languages" <<< and they don't, in japanese you can have multiple verbs using the same arguments
23:56:05 <oklopol> just stick them at the end of the sentence
23:56:11 <oklopol> (afaik)
23:56:19 <cpressey> Japanese is the new Factor
23:56:40 <Gregor> Japanese ... is a concatenative language ...
23:56:40 <oklopol> i'm not sure japanese is "concatenative" tho, just verb-last :D
23:56:41 <cpressey> (Ooh, spoken at 5:55:55)
23:57:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:57:31 <alise> <oklopol> "* alise decides that predicate words shouldn't pop their argument in concatenative languages" <<< and they don't, in japanese you can have multiple verbs using the same arguments
23:57:32 <alise> verily
23:57:40 <alise> dunno about verbs though
23:57:47 <alise> hmm you're totally right
23:57:47 <Gregor> cpressey: Wait, you're in EST?
23:57:51 <alise> default-popping is a bit silly
23:57:54 <alise> although you end up popping a lot i guess
23:58:03 <oklopol> Gregor: when it comes to natural languages, i figured sov is as close as you get
23:58:06 <cpressey> Gregor: No, CST, I thought
23:58:19 <Gregor> Oh, haw, I'm off by one X-P
23:58:24 <Gregor> In spite of ... being in EST ... >_>
23:58:24 <cpressey> Well, CDT
23:59:35 <Gregor> cpressey: So what are you doing in some godawful midwestern state? :P
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