←2010-09-11 2010-09-12 2010-09-13→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:02:14 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Heh, the eye's just a badly designed digital camera. <-- a LOT of MP though
00:04:52 <nooga> and it's rather analog than digital
00:05:14 <nooga> + nice FOV and extremely fast AF
00:05:27 <nooga> fair dynamic range, also
00:08:10 <Vorpal> yeah
00:08:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:08:27 <fizzie> 576 megapixels, according to some back-of-the-envelope calculations in the internet. (That was based on 120/60 degree H/V-FOV and the maximum acuity, so it does sort-of mean taking multiple "shots".)
00:08:51 <Vorpal> nooga, slow changing the stopping though
00:08:58 <Vorpal> or perhaps changing the ISO
00:09:01 <Vorpal> not sure which
00:09:20 <Vorpal> but when it gets there it is good at that level
00:09:51 <Vorpal> it just takes ages to change from f11 1/2000 ISO64 to f3.5 1/2 ISO800
00:11:17 <nooga> well
00:11:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:11:50 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of difference in the luma/chroma resolution, what with only about 5 % of the retinal cells being color-sensitive.
00:11:58 <nooga> pupil reacts quite fast
00:12:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, true.
00:12:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, more around "straight ahead" iirc?
00:12:27 <nooga> i've got funny illness
00:12:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, and the resolution goes way down out towards the edges
00:12:51 <nooga> sometimes, my left eye breaks
00:12:57 <oklopol> you mean the tumor
00:13:03 <Vorpal> I mean, you can't read anything not straight ahead
00:13:13 <Vorpal> nooga, breaks?
00:13:15 <oklopol> also didn't you get glass in your eye
00:13:32 <Vorpal> nooga, doctor right away!
00:13:33 <nooga> no, because it's completely healthy from the optical point fo view
00:13:39 <nooga> seen the doctor
00:13:42 <Vorpal> and?
00:14:13 <nooga> he said it's a problem with optical nerve bandwith
00:14:25 <nooga> and it looks just like it
00:14:25 <oklopol> 8|
00:14:46 <oklopol> get a new optical nerve
00:14:54 <nooga> first, the colors start to dim, and it's like changing color depth in a computer display
00:14:59 <nooga> then everything is gray
00:15:16 <nooga> and then i can see only contours and movement
00:15:41 <nooga> and then just static, like in TV, but really hi-res
00:15:55 <Vorpal> nooga, um and what triggers it?
00:16:15 <nooga> after 3-5 minutes everything is back to normal
00:16:25 <Vorpal> nooga, also I doubt that you should drive if you get such things
00:16:33 <nooga> oh, it happens rarely
00:16:33 <Vorpal> it sounds dangerous combined with driving
00:16:49 <nooga> never had that when driving
00:16:55 <nooga> and it's just one eye :D
00:17:13 <nooga> so i would have time to stop by the road and wait
00:17:14 <Vorpal> nooga, that stills removes some 80° or such of your view field
00:17:27 <nooga> true
00:17:37 <oklopol> what
00:17:42 <Vorpal> nooga, on a freeway or such?
00:17:43 <oklopol> oh
00:17:45 <oklopol> degrees
00:17:46 <nooga> hahah
00:17:48 <Vorpal> nooga, would be tricky
00:17:50 <oklopol> i read that as 80%
00:17:55 <nooga> there are no FREEWAYS in Poland :P
00:18:03 <Vorpal> nooga, oh?
00:18:06 <oklopol> yeah poland is a fucking desert
00:18:14 <fizzie> There's just PRISONWAYS.
00:18:26 <nooga> ok, there are, but only a few
00:18:28 <Vorpal> nooga, weren't you driving in Sweden or something some year(s) ago?
00:18:31 <fizzie> I would guess they let one-eyed people drive, though.
00:18:46 <Vorpal> nooga, and we have E4, E6, E18, E20 and so on
00:18:50 <oklopol> nooga: seriously, didn't you get glass in your eye
00:18:51 <Vorpal> 110 km/h
00:18:57 <oklopol> serious business
00:18:57 <Vorpal> in many places
00:19:10 <nooga> Vorpal: true, i've been there, 110km/h
00:19:18 <fizzie> 120 km/h on freeways here, at least in the summer.
00:19:24 <nooga> 100HP saab 9-5
00:19:36 <Vorpal> nooga, there something like that eye issue would possibly be fatal
00:19:37 <nooga> 200*
00:19:37 <oklopol> yeah but you can go faster if you're badass
00:19:46 <Vorpal> oklopol, -_-
00:19:53 <nooga> Vorpal: in what sense?
00:20:01 <Vorpal> nooga, collision risk
00:20:05 <oklopol> Vorpal: don't say driving too fast is bad for you if you haven't tried it
00:20:06 <nooga> not a chance
00:20:10 <nooga> not on a freeway
00:20:19 -!- lament has joined.
00:20:26 <Vorpal> nooga, well, also hard to stop along the side of the road
00:20:37 <nooga> not in sweden, because you meet 5 cars on the freeway, during whole day
00:20:47 <Vorpal> nooga, um not my experience
00:20:53 <Vorpal> nooga, depends on where though I guess
00:21:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what do you know about living dangerously?
00:21:16 <nooga> i get this effect rare and i know when it starts
00:21:34 <Vorpal> nooga, near Gothenburg or Stockholm the chances are you will be stuck in queues. Around where I live you don't get queues but the traffic can be quite intense
00:21:38 <nooga> i've got 2-3 minutes to react
00:21:41 <oklopol> driving a car sounds scary, i doubt i'll ever do it
00:21:51 <oklopol> but i don't judge
00:21:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean by that?
00:22:03 * Phantom_Hoover has no idea
00:22:03 <Vorpal> oklopol, you don't have a driving license?
00:22:07 <oklopol> no
00:22:13 * Phantom_Hoover is sleep deprived
00:22:29 <Phantom_Hoover> *sleepy
00:22:36 <Phantom_Hoover> See how incoherent I am?
00:22:37 <oklopol> i prefer not doing things that are deadly
00:22:41 <fizzie> We had this tiny little Fiat whatever that couldn't really go fast, and we had it on a trip to Germany; everyone was going past so fast it was sometimes hard to say whether we were moving at all.
00:22:51 <oklopol> i mean
00:22:54 <fizzie> oklopol: Yet you do math!
00:22:56 <oklopol> if you're driving a car
00:23:01 <nooga> well
00:23:06 <oklopol> and suddenly you fall asleep or start watching a movie
00:23:08 <oklopol> you will die.
00:23:10 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScRGB <-- what a silly colour space
00:23:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
00:23:27 <nooga> 250km/h is doable on bumpy polish roads
00:23:33 <Vorpal> nooga, you tried?
00:23:34 <nooga> and i'm still alive
00:23:36 <Vorpal> ouch
00:23:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Noticed that from your earlier link. It *is* silly.
00:23:40 <oklopol> fizzie: didn't i mention i'm switching to bartending because math is too hard
00:23:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, which one?
00:23:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, this one I didn't link before
00:23:54 <nooga> Vorpal: but when i was in swe i tried not to speed
00:23:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: ScRGB.
00:24:00 <nooga> in fact, i didn't speed at all
00:24:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, I didn't link it before that
00:24:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, but it was in the bottom table of colorspaces in your other link.
00:24:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh
00:24:45 <nooga> + check out the crazy finns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NEnwp13g4
00:24:50 <nooga> nobody died
00:26:21 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
00:26:42 <fizzie> There's not so much to do around here, we have to compensate with stuff like that.
00:26:52 <oklopol> "oli aivan huima"
00:28:38 <Vorpal> oh my
00:28:51 <Vorpal> nooga, how did they manage to survive that
00:28:53 <oklopol> 1:56 is pretty
00:29:12 <nooga> Vorpal: their cars have some mods to make them "deathproof"
00:29:32 <alise> <Vorpal> nooga, solution: don't drink alcohol. Then you can drive whenever you want. :P ;; yes, drive on cocaine instead
00:29:34 <Vorpal> nooga, um...
00:29:41 <nooga> like cages, 4-point seatbealts and stuff
00:29:48 <Vorpal> alise, :D though I didn't say that
00:29:52 <nooga> they wear helmets
00:30:05 <Vorpal> nooga, why don't all cars have that as standard I wonder
00:30:10 <Vorpal> would make driving safer
00:30:17 <nooga> because it takes too much space
00:30:21 <nooga> oh no
00:30:28 <nooga> Volvo aims to be deathproof
00:30:48 <Vorpal> all basically crash the same way it seems
00:30:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:31:06 <Vorpal> I mean, no frontal crash against a brick wall
00:31:08 -!- relet1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:31:16 <fizzie> Deathproof; they'll refund the price if you die, though of course only if you personally visit the dealer.
00:31:33 <Vorpal> also the G-forces would be rather nasty
00:31:39 -!- relet has joined.
00:32:03 <Ilari> Aren't there two major problems with 4-point seatbelts: 1) Submarining (with poorly-designed belts) and 2) Neck loads on crash?
00:32:06 <fizzie> I don't think they tend to put brick walls in the middle of racing tracks.
00:32:39 <oklopol> what is submarining
00:33:00 <fizzie> oklopol: Those boats that go underwater.
00:33:13 <Vorpal> haha
00:33:29 <Vorpal> also how many cars are there
00:33:34 <Vorpal> this looks extreme
00:33:39 <alise> <fizzie> The article talks about "bleaching"; I don't know enough on how the cells in the eye work to be able to guess if it's the same process or not. ;; Bleach eyes!
00:33:40 <nooga> new Volvos are extremely smart in saving ppl inside
00:33:45 <Vorpal> I would have expected like 10-20 or such
00:34:18 <nooga> a friend of my father lost control over a Volvo, in summer, almost on ice, in traffic
00:34:42 <Vorpal> hm also what about smashed glass or such? that could hit you in the face
00:34:45 <Vorpal> or elsewhere
00:35:05 <oklopol> how?
00:35:16 <oklopol> the glass only goes in as much as whatever object pushes it
00:35:23 <oklopol> in which case the glass isn't the issue anyway
00:35:32 <nooga> he did like 120km/h, the car turned few times and then it managed to get back to the right direction
00:35:38 <Vorpal> nooga, in some of those crashes they almost hit bystanders!
00:35:43 <nooga> leaving driver with wet pants
00:35:43 <Vorpal> that is dangerous
00:35:55 -!- relet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:36:12 <oklopol> i read "that is hilarious"
00:36:13 <Ilari> Submarining (seatbelts) is when (with poorly designed seatbelts) crash tends to push person under the seatbelt...
00:36:16 <oklopol> was a bit... out of character
00:36:28 <Ilari> Obiviously not a good thing....
00:36:33 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2006-10-20/
00:36:37 <oklopol> wait i don't get it
00:36:41 <Sgeo> And there's a reason I didn't link to the fast version
00:36:50 <oklopol> wait
00:36:51 <oklopol> i do
00:37:05 <Vorpal> oklopol, in character for you though
00:37:30 <nooga> 01:33 < nooga> a friend of my father lost control over a Volvo, in summer, almost on ice, in traffic
00:37:31 <oklopol> i doubt it
00:37:33 <nooga> lol
00:37:40 <nooga> s/summer/winter/
00:38:15 <Ilari> In 3-point seatbelts, IIRC submarining is avoided by having the upper belt tighten the lower one in crash...
00:38:39 <nooga> i guess that one glass of akvavit was too much
00:39:22 <oklopol> i did find it a bit weird that you mentioned it was summer but didn't explain why there was ice
00:39:49 <nooga> Ilari: eg. in Mercedes SLK the seatbelts every time tighten when the car accelerates rapidly
00:40:02 <nooga> it's annoying
00:40:08 <alise> <fizzie> I don't think they tend to put brick walls in the middle of racing tracks. ;; that would be amazing
00:40:26 <nooga> i can't get my phone while accelerating
00:40:48 <alise> nooga: Volvo's safety record is exaggerated afaik
00:41:14 <nooga> 01:39 < nooga> Ilari: eg. in Mercedes SLK the seatbelts tighten every time when the car accelerates rapidly **
00:41:26 <Vorpal> nooga, wait that video is from different times of the year. Some show snow and some summer
00:41:29 <nooga> hell
00:41:56 <nooga> Vorpal: and?
00:42:10 <Vorpal> nooga, I thought it was all *one* tournament at first
00:42:15 <Vorpal> not quite that bad
00:42:15 <oklopol> :D
00:42:15 <cpressey> nooga: There's no freeways in Manitoba, either. You want onto the Trans-Canada Highway? Stop sign. You want off? Signal and slow down.
00:42:29 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScRGB ;; is there a colour space containing the entire visible spectrum (and, obviously, more)?
00:42:38 <oklopol> "the finnish crash rally"
00:42:39 <Ilari> IIRC, The X4 seatbelts seen in some Volvos are inferrior to V4's (the more "classical" design).
00:43:04 <alise> Ilari: how do you know about all this shit
00:43:05 <nooga> cpressey: i've heard they have blinking red light in Canada
00:43:21 <alise> we get on to some wildly random off-topic thing and you just start pwning everyone with facts
00:43:39 <cpressey> nooga: yeah, and it means different things in different places...
00:43:39 <oklopol> yeah Ilari is awesome
00:43:40 <Vorpal> alise, well scRGB doesn't quite do it
00:43:44 <alise> Vorpal: precisely
00:43:44 <Vorpal> alise, you want LAB or such
00:44:00 <nooga> cpressey: i've got a friend with canadian driving license
00:44:01 <alise> Vorpal: why doesn't everyone use LAB?
00:44:09 <nooga> and he talks about Montreal every day
00:44:12 <Vorpal> alise, not sure. Possibly it is awkward
00:44:37 <fizzie> Displays don't do lab, anyway.
00:44:41 <cpressey> nooga: We have blinking green, too! Very pretty.
00:44:46 <nooga> wtf
00:44:48 <Vorpal> alise, because it has that strange shape that the visible area has
00:44:51 <Vorpal> alise, like in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIE1931xy_blank.svg
00:44:59 <alise> Vorpal: that's not the visible area
00:44:59 <Vorpal> not sure you you properly code it
00:45:01 <alise> that's the area that's in RG
00:45:03 <alise> *RGB
00:45:07 <alise> big difference
00:45:08 <alise> oh
00:45:08 <alise> wait
00:45:09 <Vorpal> alise, incorrect.
00:45:13 <alise> i thought it was a different image you linked to
00:45:17 <Vorpal> alise, it has false colours outside
00:45:23 <alise> yes
00:45:27 <alise> i don't mind that though, why does that matter?
00:45:37 <Vorpal> eh?
00:45:44 <alise> why do false colours matter?
00:46:04 <nooga> cpressey: and we've got informal: late green, very late green, and very very late green
00:46:21 <Vorpal> alise, no, I meant "false" as in "on your monitor they won't show the proper ones"
00:46:30 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't refer to the imaginary ones
00:46:36 <alise> Vorpal: oh
00:46:41 <alise> Vorpal: well, ofc we just need a magical LAB display
00:46:50 <Vorpal> alise, and a file format that supports it
00:46:55 <alise> TIFF does i think
00:46:55 <nooga> cpressey: but only when the police is not around
00:47:00 <alise> there's a reference to the TIFF spec in the references section
00:47:03 <Vorpal> alise, I'm 99.9% sure that svg, which that is I think, doesn't
00:47:10 <alise> imaginary colours, i fail to see how they're a problem; just flag an error if some image operation results in them
00:47:12 <alise> in the GPU or whatever
00:48:34 <cpressey> nooga: :)
00:48:35 <Vorpal> alise, actually xyY is probably saner than LAB
00:48:46 <fizzie> The outside-the-human-vision values also eat some of the precision, if some coordinate ranges are illegals.
00:49:24 <alise> Vorpal: xyY?
00:49:33 <alise> fizzie: just use moar bits
00:49:43 <Gregor> 71%!
00:49:44 <Vorpal> alise, XYZ and xyY are discussed on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space
00:49:54 <Vorpal> alise, fizzie: just use floating point
00:49:59 <nooga> moar beets!
00:50:04 <Vorpal> intensity
00:50:08 <Vorpal> or such
00:50:09 <nooga> intestines
00:50:10 <fizzie> Isn't the whole point of lab to be more perceptually uniform than the CIE XYZ it's derived from.
00:50:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm true
00:50:39 <fizzie> Which would be something you's like in an image-processing thing.
00:50:48 <Vorpal> true
00:51:26 <fizzie> Still, RGB is a whole lot simpler if you're targeting a RGB screen.
00:51:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, sRGB you mean
00:51:48 <Vorpal> or?
00:51:52 <Gregor> 75%!
00:52:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, of what?
00:52:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, most TFTs actually have different primaries than the CRT ones that sRGB was designed for
00:52:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, but they are artificially restricted by sRGB
00:52:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: You'll see at 100% :P
00:53:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh this is not 75% of LAB?
00:53:07 <cpressey> Gregor is installing HackFactor
00:53:21 <Gregor> Vorpal: Uhhh, no?
00:53:23 <Gregor> cpressey: Nope :P
00:53:27 <fizzie> Fear Factor.
00:53:31 <alise> Hacktor
00:53:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, HackFalcon
00:53:35 <cpressey> Max Factor
00:54:01 <alise> Fuck archaeology, I'm installing Ubuntu!
00:54:14 <Vorpal> alise, archaeology? How so?
00:54:29 <nooga> FackHalcyon
00:54:42 <Vorpal> alise, also isn't it "archeology"?
00:54:53 <Vorpal> though aspell seems to accept both
00:55:09 <Gregor> Vorpal: Even my American archaeology class spelled it "archaeology"
00:55:09 <cpressey> it's an aesthetic difference
00:55:25 <cpressey> </oerjan>
00:55:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm
00:55:32 <nooga> anestetic, time to sleep
00:55:34 <Gregor> cpressey: You mean an esthetic difference, right? :P
00:56:00 <nooga> gn8
00:56:45 <cpressey> good neight nooga :)
00:57:19 <Gregor> 85%!
00:57:29 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, also isn't it "archeology"? ;; no
00:57:32 <alise> even Americans spell it with ae
00:59:15 <Vorpal> alise, wikipedia suggests both spellings exist
00:59:31 <cpressey> wikipaedia
00:59:41 <Vorpal> :P
00:59:41 <alise> Vorpal: nobody says archeology.
00:59:50 <alise> my spellcheck doesn't even accept it here
00:59:55 <Vorpal> hm
01:00:02 <Vorpal> aspell here accepts both so *shrug*
01:00:08 <alise> aspell accepts some weird shit.
01:00:21 <Vorpal> alise, oh?
01:01:11 <alise> well, the dictionary sucks a bit
01:03:23 <cpressey> Gregor is installing Sauerbraten
01:04:05 <alise> Gregor is joining Cat's Eye Technologies.
01:04:21 <Gregor> AND I'M 93% IN
01:06:23 <fizzie> At 100 % his AI will become sentient and initiate the singularity.
01:06:30 <Gregor> 95%!
01:06:49 <Gregor> Don't worry, it'll be a slow start.
01:06:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, it's zee combined with microcosm
01:06:57 <Gregor> You won't know you're obsolete 'til you're already just vapor blowing in the wind.
01:07:01 <Vorpal> (sadly I had no time for microcosm recently)
01:07:25 <Gregor> I have, but have been using it on "research" or some such BS.
01:07:32 <Gregor> Also, the thing that's at 99% now.
01:08:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, so what is it?
01:08:17 <fizzie> It's always the last percent that takes longest.
01:08:19 <cpressey> Stalled at 99%?
01:08:25 <Gregor> Nowhere near as exciting as I'm making it out to be :P
01:08:32 <Gregor> Well, that was just 100% of the upload, then there's processing ...
01:08:55 <cpressey> Gregor is installing Processing!
01:08:59 <cpressey> No, I might have read that wrong
01:09:19 <fizzie> Gaaaa, screw this, I'll just go and do the thing that I should do that I need to be away for. ->
01:11:52 <Gregor> Stupid processing.
01:11:54 <Gregor> So slow.
01:13:46 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processing_(programming_language)
01:13:57 <cpressey> In case my last crack was missed.
01:16:15 <alise> Processing is fun.
01:16:27 <cpressey> "When programming in Processing all additional classes defined will be treated as inner classes when the code is translated into pure Java before compiling. This means that the use of static variables and methods in classes is prohibited unless you explicitly tell Processing that you want to code in pure Java mode."
01:16:36 <alise> Yes, yes, whatever.
01:16:38 <cpressey> That sounds like a coherent approach to language design right there don't ya know.
01:16:43 <alise> You generally don't get code that complex in a Processing applet.
01:16:48 <alise> Besides, there's a thing to use Scala with it.
01:16:52 <alise> Spde.
01:17:22 <cpressey> If you "use Scala with it" what exactly are you using Scala with?
01:17:54 <Gregor> EVERYTHING
01:18:22 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04OAykpufuM :)
01:19:09 <alise> cpressey: Processing.
01:19:24 <cpressey> oh so gregor's suspense-numbers were youtube upload well that's anticlimactic
01:19:31 <Gregor> Yes :P
01:19:52 <cpressey> maybe if my audio worked in a non-insane way... well i'll bookmark it
01:22:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, I think sound is better from your usual uploads?
01:23:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: Purely digital, no analog involved in producing the audio whatsoever.
01:23:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, besides the file doesn't load properly
01:23:38 <Vorpal> I guess it isn't fully cached
01:23:44 <Gregor> "The file"?
01:23:44 <Vorpal> on their servers
01:23:51 <Gregor> ORLY? E_WORKSFORME
01:23:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, youtube-dl fails at 7%
01:23:58 <Vorpal> then a bit later at 9%
01:24:07 <Gregor> Probably because it wasn't finished "processing"
01:24:17 <Gregor> Not all qualities are available.
01:24:26 <Vorpal> ERROR: content too short (expected 59460573 bytes and served 3619891)
01:24:31 <Gregor> Probably because it wasn't finished "processing"
01:24:31 <Gregor> Not all qualities are available.
01:24:38 <Vorpal> right
01:24:52 <Vorpal> this one tries to download best one reported
01:25:42 <Vorpal> night
01:25:45 <Gregor> Bahee
01:25:50 <Vorpal> will listen to the rest tomorrow
01:28:12 <cpressey> alise: how goes the finding and installing an os you don't hate thing
01:30:04 <Gregor> (done processing)
01:30:09 <cpressey> my goal for tonight is to write a loop in Pophery
01:32:33 <alise> <cpressey> alise: how goes the finding and installing an os you don't hate thing ;; i hate all OSes
01:32:42 <Gregor> That's my opinion on languages ...
01:33:26 <alise> that's my opinion on everything
01:38:41 <cpressey> everything has its own unique hatefulnessishness
01:46:01 <cpressey> I'm going to settle for getting Pophery's unit tests to pass
01:47:21 <cpressey> Sgeo: does Factor have unit tests?
01:47:29 <Sgeo> Yes
01:48:01 <Sgeo> Note that the example unit tests given in the tutorial is a bit off
01:48:15 <Sgeo> You should use { } and not [ ] for the result of the executed quotation
01:48:18 <alise> [[Ubuntu's famous slogan is (it should "Just Work", TM)]]
01:48:54 <cpressey> Sgeo: not just support for writing unit tests in Factor, I mean, is there a test suite for the language itself?
01:49:37 <Sgeo> Considering that most of Factor is written in Factor.. I _think_ so. Don't know about all of it, or about the C++ parts
01:49:44 <Sgeo> (At least, I think there are C++ parts)
01:49:48 <cpressey> Hm, OK
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01:55:37 <Sgeo> You can ask people who actually know stuff in #concatenative
02:03:51 <cpressey> I might as well just clone the git repo and look myself :)
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02:28:40 <alise> this is fucked up
02:28:47 <alise> I can't copy one contents of an ISO onto this drive without something fucking up
02:29:57 <alise> seriously the transfer just fails
02:29:59 <alise> has my USB drive fucked up?
02:30:03 <alise> should i give up on life?
02:30:08 <alise> is all ultimately hopeless and futile?
02:32:23 <cpressey> wat
02:33:13 <cpressey> clearly a single fucked up usb drive indicates that all is ultimately hopeless and futile
02:33:24 <Gregor> Seems about right.
02:33:34 <cpressey> much like the piece of fairy cake, ...
02:33:52 <alise> E: Failed to fetch http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/q/qt4-x11/libqtcore4_4.6.3-1+b1_amd64.deb: Hash Sum mismatch
02:33:54 <alise> FUQ
02:34:06 <cpressey> jesus debian
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02:36:19 <alise> yeah ubuntu still appears to be my best bet
02:36:27 <alise> it's shit but if i avoid flash it... works
02:36:48 <alise> cpressey: have I ever mentioned how much I LOVE THIS LAPTOP
02:37:17 <cpressey> alise: not to my knowledge
02:37:21 <alise> i have
02:37:22 <alise> anyway
02:37:25 <alise> I LOVE THIS LAPTOP
02:37:29 <Sgeo> alise, why avoid flash?
02:37:38 <alise> AV sync issues
02:37:45 <Sgeo> I mean, besides the fact that you hate Dot Action 2... oh
02:37:52 <alise> I love Dot Action 2, it's just evil.
02:38:20 <alise> the AV sync is better with OSSv4. but OSS on Ubuntu is painful.
02:39:16 <alise> even unetbootin is failing at it osijfoijf
02:39:22 <alise> i think i'll try and run unetbootin from windows.
02:40:15 <alise> "These software updates have been issued since Debian GNU/Linux was released.If you don't want to install them now, choose "Update Manager" from the Administraion menu later."
02:40:20 <alise> Typos there are from the original.
02:40:27 <alise> The lack of space and the misspelled "Administration".
02:40:34 <alise> Real professional, Update Manager.
02:41:59 <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo."
02:42:05 <cpressey> alise: I
02:42:16 <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
02:42:26 <alise> xD
02:42:42 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_(anthem)
02:42:44 <oerjan> talk about sucking up there
02:42:45 <cpressey> alise: I don't have any huge pain with flash fwiw, since you basically guided me through getting it installed
02:42:55 <alise> cpressey: 64-bit?
02:42:58 <alise> i guess not
02:42:59 <cpressey> ahh no.
02:43:03 <alise> it's probably worse here
02:43:06 <alise> since we have to use a wrapper
02:43:14 <cpressey> lame li'l 32-bit laptop here
02:43:36 <alise> awesome li'l 64-bit laptop here
02:43:57 <alise> brb
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02:59:15 <Gregor> `addquote <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
02:59:25 <HackEgo> 221|<alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
03:01:01 <Sgeo> Annoying thing about stack-based and concatenative languages: The order of arguments is a significant design choice
03:05:55 * Gregor voodoos Plof at Sgeo :P
03:11:51 <lament> `
03:11:52 <HackEgo> No output.
03:11:56 <lament> `quote
03:12:00 <HackEgo> 189|<fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only.
03:13:50 <cpressey> marf
03:26:35 <Gregor> It's been a long time since I frunged assembly, so somebody remind me: Is it the duty of the caller or the callee to save potentially-clobbered registers?
03:30:05 <Gregor> (On x86 and x86_64)
03:31:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: that's a bit the case for curried functional languages like haskell, too
03:31:38 <Sgeo> ambiet VIII is really beautiful
03:31:40 <Sgeo> With the vocals
03:32:23 <lament> `quote
03:32:24 <HackEgo> 80|<Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert.
03:32:27 <lament> `quote
03:32:28 <HackEgo> 180|<coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing
03:32:29 <Sgeo> Or maybe despite the vocals
03:32:37 <lament> `quote
03:32:38 <HackEgo> No output.
03:32:41 <lament> `quote
03:32:51 <lament> `quote
03:32:57 <HackEgo> No output.
03:33:04 <Sgeo> `quote
03:33:14 <HackEgo> No output.
03:33:16 <Gregor> OHHEY!
03:33:18 <lament> did it just stop working?
03:33:19 <Gregor> Finally it's broken, good
03:33:19 <oerjan> stuck again
03:33:24 <HackEgo> No output.
03:33:24 <lament> does it have a quota of quotes?
03:33:29 <lament> `help
03:33:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:33:31 <Sgeo> "Finally"?
03:33:32 <Gregor> No, it just gets broken sometimes.
03:33:34 <lament> `quote
03:33:40 <Sgeo> Oh, debugging time?
03:33:51 <HackEgo> No output.
03:34:04 <lament> `ls
03:34:22 <HackEgo> No output.
03:34:34 <Sgeo> The songs appear to be in lexical order
03:34:40 <Sgeo> Which is wrong
03:34:42 <Gregor> I've been waiting for it to break so I can see if I can debug it :P
03:34:47 <oerjan> i think `help is pretty much the only thing that works in that state
03:35:04 <lament> `fortune
03:35:20 <HackEgo> No output.
03:35:30 <Gregor> The `help command will work because it doesn't fork anything.
03:36:40 <Sgeo> ambiet X is also great
03:37:00 <Gregor> fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable D-8
03:37:23 <Sgeo> I LOVE THOS SONG!
03:37:27 <Sgeo> THIS
03:37:46 <Sgeo> http://www.archive.org/download/Torley_Wong_-_The_Final_Selection/Torley_Wong-ambiet_X.mp3
03:38:18 <oerjan> Gregor: running out of PIDs or something?
03:38:38 <Gregor> oerjan: I think I set the rlimit on the wrong side of the uid changeover D-8
03:39:08 <Sgeo> I feel... like I produce less than everyone else here
03:39:30 <Gregor> Yup, I did.
03:40:19 <oerjan> Gregor: you mean like the limit applies to _all_ invocations of HackEgo commands and not just to _one_?
03:40:56 <Gregor> oerjan: Even worse, since that UID is shared by Hackiki and a few other bots too :)
03:41:10 <oerjan> oh
03:42:27 <Gregor> `ls
03:42:28 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.31035 \ wunderbar_emporium
03:42:30 <Gregor> :)
03:42:36 <Gregor> Fixed -- for good!
03:42:41 <Gregor> (I hope)
03:42:46 <oerjan> famous last words
03:43:12 <Gregor> :P
03:43:30 <oerjan> i'm _sure_ there's a tvtrope for this
03:43:48 <Sgeo> For computer programming?
03:44:06 <Gregor> Does anybody know the answer to my registers question? ...
03:44:56 <cpressey> < Gregor> I've been waiting for it to break so I can see if I can debug it :P <-- welcome to computer science
03:44:56 * oerjan only vaguely recalls that interrupts let the callee save, just for security reasons
03:45:14 <cpressey> Gregor: re registers: it depends on the convention!
03:45:14 <oerjan> and i picked that up from some discussion here i think
03:45:33 <Gregor> cpressey: Of course. Standard UNIX C.
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03:46:01 <Gregor> I'm asking this because I'm trying to define a new (non-C) calling convention and need to know how it will interact with C :P
03:46:34 <cpressey> Gregor: 'cdecl' >
03:46:38 <cpressey> s/>/?/
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03:47:11 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_calling_conventions
03:47:23 <Gregor> Why didn't I think to look at Wikipedia ...
03:47:30 <cpressey> "On Linux, gcc is the de-facto standard for calling conventions."
03:47:33 <alise> Because WIKIPEDIA IS FASCISM.
03:47:36 <cpressey> not the gcc is a calling convention
03:47:38 <cpressey> but whatever
03:47:44 <cpressey> *that
03:48:14 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TemptingFate
03:49:00 <alise> a//b
03:49:14 <oerjan> with a bunch of subtropes for more specific occasions (i don't see a computer one though)
03:49:37 <Gregor> Caller push.
03:49:52 <Gregor> Go-tit, thankee Wikip!
03:50:01 <alise> Why are all Linux fonts so terrible???
03:50:42 <Gregor> Why are all fontophiles so terrible ...
03:50:55 <alise> Well, okay, DejaVu is nice.
03:50:58 <alise> But there's nothing beyond that.
03:51:04 <alise> Bitstream Charter, okay.
03:51:05 <alise> Droid, okay.
03:51:06 <alise> It ends there.
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03:51:21 <alise> Gregor: I'm not a fontophile who just wants to stuff every typeface I can into something >_<
03:51:36 <cpressey> COMIC SANS FOREVER
03:51:44 <alise> Droid Sans is weird as an IRC font.
03:52:41 <cpressey> `quote
03:52:43 <HackEgo> 181|<Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
03:53:17 <alise> `quote
03:53:18 <HackEgo> 109|<Warrigal> What do you call the husband of my first cousin once removed? <apollo> Warrigal: "Hey, Sexy."
03:56:08 <oerjan> be careful to remove him first though
03:56:46 <alise> brb
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03:58:48 <alise> Blergh, there's no repository of X-Chat colour themes.
03:58:52 <alise> Like one that doesn't spew purple everywher.
03:58:54 <alise> *everywhere.
03:59:12 <cpressey> I want a colour theme that matches the Plof wiki
04:00:27 <cpressey> HUh, I swear it was uglier earlier today
04:01:01 <Sgeo> There's a specialized Plof wiki?
04:01:02 <alise> cpressey: It re-schemes itself.
04:01:06 <alise> Sgeo:
04:01:09 <alise> http://plof.codu.org/wiki/
04:01:12 <alise> s/Sgeo: /Sgeo:/
04:01:42 <Sgeo> It's not an esolang?
04:01:48 <alise> ...
04:02:09 * Sgeo seriously thought it was intended to be an esolang
04:02:22 <Sgeo> Before I, you know, just now actually decided to read about it
04:03:00 <cpressey> It's a WUNDERLANG
04:05:29 <cpressey> Also, rhododendrons.
04:05:50 <cpressey> `quote
04:05:52 <HackEgo> 29|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once
04:05:55 <alise> rhododendron is a lovely word
04:06:00 <alise> `quote 28
04:06:01 <HackEgo> 28|<bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to have two heads
04:06:04 <alise> `quote 30
04:06:06 <HackEgo> 30|<oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste
04:06:10 <alise> `quote 31
04:06:12 <HackEgo> 31|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
04:06:15 <alise> `quote 32
04:06:16 <HackEgo> 32|<ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
04:06:18 <alise> `quote 33
04:06:20 <HackEgo> 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
04:06:26 <alise> `quote 34
04:06:27 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
04:06:30 <alise> `quote 35
04:06:31 <HackEgo> 35|PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers
04:06:34 <alise> `quote 36
04:06:35 <HackEgo> 36|<Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
04:06:43 <alise> cpressey: The Alternate Universe story arc!
04:06:52 <alise> Courtesy of me and Google Translate.
04:07:05 <oerjan> In an alternate universe, there are no hypotheticals
04:07:09 <cpressey> I see
04:07:47 <oerjan> that's some broken norwegian up there
04:07:56 * Sgeo logs in to the Plof wiki
04:08:20 <alise> oerjan: I had to convert the øs, for a start, since EgoBot was being sucky.
04:08:23 <alise> If I recall correctly.
04:08:39 <oerjan> and å too, but even so the grammar is insane :D
04:09:31 <oerjan> well for the part before the colon, the remainder isn't that crazy
04:10:50 <oerjan> I ET ANNET UNIVERS DER OERJAN ER ENESTE PERSON would be the correct grammar
04:11:24 <oerjan> well assuming it means what i think it means
04:11:39 <oerjan> (it accidentally the verb too)
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04:12:41 <cpressey> oerjan: it probably means what you think it means, since there's this nice Rosetta stone thing going on for context
04:13:09 <oerjan> s/eller/ellers/ as well, otherwise the meaning is not the same as ehird's original
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04:14:22 <oerjan> (with just eller it means "or is the world completely bonkers")
04:15:40 <oerjan> hm is bonkers a norwegian word
04:16:07 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've heard it
04:16:41 <Gregor> I'm pretty sure YouTube used to make it possible to allow downloading of videos (without youtube-dl or similar)
04:16:48 <Gregor> But it doesn't seem to now.
04:18:20 <oerjan> cpressey: well the rosetta thing breaks down for the part "DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN" since it clearly doesn't mean that i conquered anything. well unless i killed everyone else, i guess.
04:18:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Never has.
04:18:32 <pikhq> Gregor: However, Google Video *always* has.
04:19:10 <Gregor> I thought Google Video had near faded out of existence since YouTube ...
04:19:15 <Gregor> was bought by Google ...
04:19:31 <pikhq> Google Video has ceased to host new videos.
04:19:40 <Gregor> Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
04:19:40 <pikhq> It remains as a video-specific search engine.
04:19:44 <Gregor> So that's pretty unhelpful :P
04:20:03 <pikhq> youtube-dl is still handy, though. ;)
04:20:19 <Gregor> I could of course host this video on codu.org ... pretty pointless either way *shrugs*
04:20:32 <alise> Ffff okay what IRC clients do you people use. Name it if it's not XChat or terminal-based.
04:20:45 <oerjan> *chirp*
04:20:48 <Sgeo> Used to use Konversation
04:21:02 <Sgeo> Does XChat-GNOME count as XChat?
04:21:05 <oerjan> hm chirp could be a nice name for a client
04:21:17 <alise> Sgeo: you use XChat-GNOME?
04:21:18 <alise> seriously?
04:21:18 <Gregor> Never used Konversation, but if it's as good as Kopete, go with X-Chat :P
04:21:20 <Sgeo> alise, used to
04:21:26 <alise> it hasn't seen a release since ... 2007 or something
04:21:26 <pikhq> alise: *chirp*
04:21:30 <alise> Gregor: Konversation is better. But...
04:21:32 <Sgeo> A long time ago
04:21:35 <alise> I'm sorta using GNOME.
04:21:41 <pikhq> I've used Konversation a *bit*. It kinda sucks.
04:21:42 <oerjan> ah it exists, for twitter
04:21:48 <alise> pikhq: it's not /so/ bad, though
04:21:51 <Sgeo> alise has the same psychosis I do!
04:21:59 <alise> What?
04:21:59 <pikhq> But only in comparison with other pure-IRC clients.
04:22:15 <pikhq> It's still a *lot* better than IM clients that happen to have IRC.
04:22:16 <Sgeo> Not wanting to mix Qt with GNOME and GTK+ with KDE
04:22:30 <alise> Uhh, that's just a desire for interface and visual consistency.
04:22:34 <alise> Not a psychosis, at least in my case...
04:22:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: I mix Qt with XFCE. Though only because Qt's GTK theme works pretty much perfectly...
04:23:09 <pikhq> If it weren't for that, I would throw one or the other away.
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04:24:26 <cpressey> I used to use blackbox
04:24:53 <pikhq> I used to use Fluxbox.
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04:25:24 <Gregor> I use to used poor grammar.
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04:25:57 <alise> Sometimes it feels to me as if I'm just being used.
04:26:01 <alise> (Is the meme dead yet?)
04:26:29 <Sgeo> alise, I don't remember that meme?
04:27:31 <alise> Okay seriously someone has to use a Linux graphical client that isn't XChat here.
04:28:03 <Sgeo> Isn't BitchX graphical?
04:28:08 <Sgeo> And Linuxy?
04:28:09 <cpressey> if you did'nt say Linux I would have mentioned that I use Pidgin
04:28:18 <pikhq> ...
04:28:21 <pikhq> Pidgin?
04:28:25 <alise> BitchX is textual....................................................................................
04:28:26 <pikhq> BURN IT WITH FIRE
04:28:28 <Sgeo> pikhq, cpressey is trolling
04:28:32 <alise> cpressey: Firstly, Pidgin is primarily a Linux client.
04:28:35 <alise> Secondly, Sgeo, no.
04:28:38 <alise> He actually uses Pidgin.
04:28:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: TROLL AND PITCHFORK
04:28:50 <alise> Thirdly, cpressey, never utter those words. Just -- don't.
04:28:51 <cpressey> pikhq: In Windows. Because for bad reasons.
04:29:01 <Sgeo> Pidgin exists for Linux, you know
04:29:12 <pikhq> cpressey: Permission requested to murder you deeply.
04:29:15 <Sgeo> Not that I'd recommend it for IRC
04:29:22 <cpressey> I know it exists for Linux, but I guess I consider it "cross platform".
04:29:29 <pikhq> It's *GTK*.
04:29:38 <zzo38> O, what kind of features are you looking for in a IRC client, anyways, you can just write one or modify an existing IRC client program
04:29:39 <alise> I more meant "available on Linux at all".
04:29:43 <alise> So, "not mIRC".
04:29:48 <cpressey> I mainly use it to connect to a Jabber server at work.
04:29:49 <pikhq> GTK is the least cross-platform cross-platform UI.
04:29:51 <Sgeo> Although it may have been my first IRC client
04:29:57 <Sgeo> pikhq, o.O?
04:30:04 <pikhq> UI toolkit, I mean.
04:30:10 <Sgeo> Howso?
04:30:12 <pikhq> Sgeo: It looks non-native everywhere but Gnome.
04:30:18 <alise> Sgeo: it's awful on OS X
04:30:21 <Sgeo> Ah
04:30:21 <pikhq> And XFCE...
04:30:22 <alise> it's imperfect on Windows
04:30:28 <alise> and it was even more imperfect on Windows a few years ago
04:30:38 <alise> it doesn't have a Qt native theme, either
04:30:38 <Sgeo> Qt mandates C++ usage
04:30:41 <alise> (Qt has a GTK+ one)
04:30:45 <cpressey> pikhq: If it will make you feel better, I will not use Pidgin for IRC ever again. I'm sure I can find irssi under cygwin or something.
04:30:49 <Gregor> alise: mIRC works great in wine.
04:30:53 <Sgeo> Which makes it a bitch from non-C++ languages
04:30:54 <alise> cpressey: Just... use mIRC.
04:31:01 <alise> Gregor: Do... do you actually do this?
04:31:06 <Gregor> alise: No :P
04:31:12 <alise> /phew
04:31:13 <Sgeo> GTK+ at least can have bindings in any language with a C FFI
04:31:20 <cpressey> Bad memories of mIRC.
04:31:28 <Sgeo> Factor, incidentally, may eventually have a C++ FFI
04:31:31 <alise> cpressey: It's okay with like three bits of configuration.
04:31:37 <alise> cpressey: You could also use ChatZilla's standalone version.
04:31:43 <Sgeo> Wait, how does PyQt work?
04:31:53 <alise> Sgeo: By using a C++ FFI.
04:31:56 <alise> Probably SWIG.
04:31:57 <Sgeo> ChatZilla has a standalone version?
04:32:01 <alise> http://chatzilla.rdmsoft.com/xulrunner/
04:32:15 <pikhq> Either SWIG or manually create C bindings and then bind *those*.
04:32:16 <cpressey> alise: Any suggestions for something that connect to Jabber and IRC and doesn't suck?
04:32:17 <Sgeo> cpressey, what's wrong with Silverex?
04:32:26 <cpressey> Sgeo: first I've heard of it
04:32:30 <alise> cpressey: You don't want both in the same client.
04:32:33 <alise> cpressey: Don't use Silverex.
04:32:39 <alise> Silverex is just a mediocre XChat build for Windows.
04:32:40 <Sgeo> alise, why not?
04:32:46 <pikhq> Or, if you're particularly crazy, *link directly against C++*.
04:32:58 <alise> cpressey: Seriously: you want a separate IM and IRC client.
04:33:22 <pikhq> (this is just *barely* possible on many UNIX systems, courtesy of using basically the same calling convention for C and C++.)
04:33:28 <Sgeo> BitlBee! (not a serious recommendation)
04:33:38 <cpressey> alise: ... since I am mostly talking in Jabber "chatrooms", the functionality is basically identical.
04:33:39 <zzo38> In my opinion PHIRC is good, but it doesn't support Jabber (unless you can write a protocol plugin). It might not have the feature you want though (but it is possible to modify the program!)
04:33:49 <pikhq> (have to do your own name-mangling and handling of this, though)
04:33:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: I use Bitlbee, and have for years.
04:34:14 <zzo38> But I don't use other kind of IM anyways. I don't use AIM and MSN and those things
04:34:24 <alise> cpressey: ah.
04:34:26 <alise> cpressey: use bitlbee
04:34:29 <alise> for jabber, then
04:34:29 <pikhq> It's not *great*, but I've not really found any other clients that don't make me want to stab someone.
04:34:31 * Sgeo uses Pidgin for everything except IRC
04:34:32 <alise> that's what i did for megabreds
04:34:34 <zzo38> IRC is works even for private message
04:34:38 <cpressey> ^ bitlbee ^
04:34:41 <alise> bit of a screwy on-IRC interface, but once you're in a channel it's good
04:34:44 <alise> cpressey: you use an IRC client
04:34:50 <alise> and connect to a local bitlbee server
04:34:53 <alise> which connects to jabber
04:34:55 <alise> and relays it back to IRC
04:35:05 <cpressey> so, I have to run my own local server.
04:35:09 <cpressey> not a plus, but ok
04:35:13 <alise> cpressey: there is a windows binary
04:35:16 <alise> it just goes into a little tray icon
04:35:19 <alise> and runs entirely locally
04:35:30 <Sgeo> There's also a public server, iirc
04:35:31 <cpressey> I can try it
04:35:32 <alise> so really the only noticeable effect is that you can't listen on port 9999 or whatever
04:35:35 <Sgeo> But why would you trust it?
04:35:36 <alise> Sgeo: if you trust them with your passwords.
04:35:39 * Sgeo looks around sheepishly
04:35:43 <cpressey> being able to use irssi to talk on the jabber things would be nice
04:35:45 <alise> You trusted it.
04:35:51 <cpressey> or tinyirc or whatever
04:36:25 <cpressey> Lo!
04:36:29 <Sgeo> I also kind of trust Meebo and eBuddy :/
04:37:00 <Sgeo> Well, did something that I should only do with entities I extremely trust
04:37:31 <alise> OH THE BROKEN FOCE
04:37:31 <zzo38> It is possible to write a protocol plugin for PHIRC, to support other protocols. You must program in:
04:37:48 <Sgeo> PHP, for starters
04:37:50 <Sgeo> iirc
04:38:02 <zzo38> * A conversion between IRC syntax and the protocol you are working with (it does not have to be IRC commands, it only has to follow the same syntax)
04:38:15 <zzo38> * What command is typed when the line starts with the space bar
04:38:43 <zzo38> * Any automated functions that are used in the protocol
04:38:51 <Sgeo> zzo38, were you on IRC before you wrote PHIRC?
04:39:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, but I used netcat. PHIRC is much better for IRC, though.
04:39:45 <Sgeo> What did you use for web browsing before Vonkeror? netcat?
04:39:46 <pikhq> Shoulda used RawIRC.
04:40:15 <alise> Conkeror.
04:40:34 -!- augur has joined.
04:40:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: I used various programs for web browser, but they all had problems. Vonkeror has problems too but it is what I have, and at least it works.
04:41:07 <cpressey> I feel so boring
04:41:40 <Sgeo> cpressey, because you didn't write your own IRC client and web browser? You still wrote how many esolangs? I should feel boring
04:41:50 -!- augur has quit (Client Quit).
04:41:51 <Sgeo> What do I do? Make one barely-interesting -> non-interesting projec
04:41:53 <Sgeo> project
04:42:02 <alise> One day, when all our faddish systems have died out and Ubuntu is but a Bantu word long forgotten, zzo38's code will be preserved crisply in its digital home that survives into the future.
04:42:03 <zzo38> PHIRC is different than most IRC clients, but that is different program is supposed to be different than the other protogram, anyways.
04:42:04 <Sgeo> And then just disappear from the face of the community
04:42:17 <alise> And when our future selves look back to see what technological wonders our generation created...
04:42:23 <alise> ...all the world's tabs will be green.
04:42:28 <alise> Ponder that.
04:42:33 <zzo38> Some people do not like it that PHIRC is different than the other program. But in my opinion, I like the way of PHIRC better than other IRC client program.
04:43:00 <Sgeo> Just don't write anything too similar to SSDS
04:43:01 <pikhq> I'd hope you do.
04:43:04 <pikhq> After all, you wrote it.
04:43:22 <Sgeo> Or at least, with its coding style
04:43:29 <Sgeo> And braindead evangelism
04:43:51 <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of?
04:44:09 <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:44:24 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=SpectateSwamp+Desktop+Searc`h#hl=en&rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&sa=X&ei=d0yMTI2_CoGdlge40qhg&ved=0CBIQvwUoAQ&q=SpectateSwamp+Desktop+Search&spell=1&fp=6052204b889acdd8
04:44:32 <Sgeo> Wow, sucky URLness
04:44:49 <alise> Sgeo: Oh right, because I should instantly know that SSDS → Spectate Swamp Desktop Search.
04:44:52 <alise> You know, with my telepathy.
04:44:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: SSDS? Do you mean SpectateSwamp Desktop Search? I agree SSDS is very badly implemented, many of these functions could be done using some UNIX commands, and stuff like that
04:45:19 <zzo38> alise: (I knew, I started typing this message before anyone else said it was that?)
04:45:31 <alise> Right, but I didn't know.
04:45:40 * Sgeo was expecting alise to know >.>
04:45:55 <Sgeo> Note to self: zzo38 is the telepath, not alise.
04:48:38 -!- augur has joined.
04:48:40 <zzo38> How many monster characters are in your group at D&D? (Is the answer a natural number? (Note: I consider zero also be a natural number, as well as all positive integers))
04:48:54 <oerjan> Sgeo: yeah i hate google's redirects too
04:49:00 <alise> -498573982798245628374956829345689732465289756432895692835689345683429765893465928374659832465.4
04:49:03 <alise> No, it is not a natural number.
04:49:17 <zzo38> alise: I can see that. But I don't believe your answer
04:49:26 <alise> I am offended.
04:49:36 <Sgeo> Nullity!
04:49:47 <zzo38> Then perhaps explain your D&D game, and then maybe I can understand more better your answers too
04:50:16 <alise> My D&D game is played solely on LSD. It exists only in the mind.
04:50:28 <Sgeo> Well, one day, there were 1 monsters to be distributed, but 0 players
04:50:30 <zzo38> alise: O, OK. Now I believe your answer
04:50:32 <cpressey> `addquote < alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? < pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:50:34 <HackEgo> 222|< alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? < pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:50:43 <alise> As the realisation quickly dawns that we are all one person and bodies are just an illusion that perpetuates the falsity that we have distinct consciousnesses, there is only one player, and they are everyone.
04:50:52 <Sgeo> So we divided the monsters up equally
04:50:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: If there is no player, there can be no play game??!!
04:51:00 <alise> `revert
04:51:01 <HackEgo> Done.
04:51:03 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, now I understand your answer
04:51:04 <alise> `addquote <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:51:07 <alise> cpressey: Anal. Sorry.
04:51:10 <HackEgo> 223|<alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:51:31 <Sgeo> Then, we spawned the monsters 0 times
04:51:54 <Sgeo> There were then Nullity monsters
04:51:56 <oerjan> IANAL
04:52:14 <zzo38> alise: And if that is the answer, how many normal character in your group of D&D? (Is *this* answer the natural number, at least?)
04:52:16 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes.
04:52:29 <alise> zzo38: Nothing is normal in LSD&D.
04:52:33 <zzo38> (Nullity is zero divided by zero (I think))
04:52:40 <zzo38> alise: OK
04:52:53 <Sgeo> Or, well, NaN
04:52:57 <zzo38> But you can't divide by zero. But at least now there is a word for dividing zero by zero, anyways.
04:52:59 <alise> zzo38: No, I'm joking; there are actually 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368000000000 monsters.
04:53:19 <zzo38> alise: As player characters? Or non-player characters? Or both?
04:53:28 <alise> Well, they all play a part.
04:53:39 <zzo38> Or are the number of player and non-player both not natural but add up to a natural number?
04:53:45 <oerjan> !which factor
04:53:46 <Sgeo> 2/0 = 4/0 != 3/0 = 1/0 = 2/0
04:53:51 <alise> I don't want to be the D&D-playing torso.
04:53:58 <oerjan> erm
04:54:05 <zzo38> alise: What is the "D&D-playing torso"?
04:54:09 <oerjan> `run which factor
04:54:10 <Sgeo> `which factor
04:54:11 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor
04:54:13 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor
04:54:15 <Sgeo> Oooooh!!!!
04:54:15 <alise> The non-natural fraction of the number of players.
04:54:21 <alise> Sgeo: it factors numbers, fanboy.
04:54:26 <augur> `run run which factor
04:54:28 <oerjan> `factor 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368000000000
04:54:28 <HackEgo> No output.
04:54:30 <HackEgo> No output.
04:54:31 <augur> O_O
04:54:33 <alise> `factor 33
04:54:34 <HackEgo> 33: 3 11
04:54:38 <Sgeo> `factor "Hello world" print
04:54:38 <augur> apparently its not fully recursive
04:54:39 <HackEgo> No output.
04:54:46 <oerjan> `factor 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368000000000
04:54:46 <Sgeo> Aww
04:54:47 <alise> augur: of course not
04:54:48 <HackEgo> No output.
04:54:50 <alise> it has some commands
04:54:52 <alise> that aren't unix commands
04:54:55 <alise> like run, help, revert
04:54:59 <zzo38> alise: OK. I guess the LSD&D can be all strange and impossible, so therefore now I know
04:55:06 <zzo38> But therefore I don't know.
04:55:08 <augur> alise: i got kiss raped tonight
04:55:11 <zzo38> See?
04:55:13 <alise> zzo38: Actually, it's group D&D.
04:55:29 <oerjan> useless factoring program
04:55:32 <alise> Monster group D&D.
04:55:39 <Sgeo> `factor 0
04:55:40 <HackEgo> 0:
04:55:45 <Sgeo> `factor -6
04:55:46 <HackEgo> No output.
04:55:54 <zzo38> alise: O! Monster group D&D. Now I understand.
04:55:58 <alise> `run factor -6 2>&1
04:55:58 <cpressey> `factor 666
04:56:02 <HackEgo> 666: 2 3 3 37
04:56:02 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor: invalid option -- '6' \ Try `/usr/bin/factor --help' for more information.
04:56:21 <cpressey> `ls /
04:56:23 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
04:56:24 <alise> `run factor -- -6 2>&1
04:56:26 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor: `-6' is not a valid positive integer
04:56:27 <zzo38> `run factor -- -6 2>&1 # Will this work?
04:56:29 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor: `-6' is not a valid positive integer
04:56:36 <cpressey> `echo $PATH
04:56:37 <HackEgo> $PATH
04:56:42 <cpressey> >(
04:56:52 <Sgeo> `echo "$PATH"
04:56:53 <HackEgo> "$PATH"
04:57:01 <Sgeo> `run echo "$PATH"
04:57:02 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.1794/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
04:57:03 <zzo38> No! You need to run it in the shell!
04:57:05 <Sgeo> Bash is weird
04:57:08 <oerjan> `factor 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368
04:57:10 <HackEgo> No output.
04:57:28 <alise> I will never be talked.
04:57:30 <cpressey> `ls /tmp/hackenv.1794/bin
04:57:32 <HackEgo> No output.
04:57:38 <alise> `factor 33333333333333333333333333333
04:57:39 <cpressey> `ls /usr/bin
04:57:41 <HackEgo> No output.
04:57:43 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 \ X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug
04:57:47 <alise> `run factor 33333333333333333333333333333 2>&1
04:57:48 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor: `33333333333333333333333333333' is too large
04:57:58 <cpressey> `run ls /tmp/hackenv.1794/bin
04:58:00 <HackEgo> No output.
04:58:08 <cpressey> `ls /bin
04:58:10 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less
04:58:30 * cpressey suspects there's more in both those directories
04:58:36 <cpressey> `run dmesg
04:58:38 <HackEgo> CP SPT=55373 DPT=1182 WINDOW=5840 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0 \ [322228.464846] Shorewall:net2fw:DROP:IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=aa:00:00:59:ad:41:00:50:c2:98:e7:2e:08:00 SRC= DST= LEN=60 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=56 ID=64391 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=35942 DPT=8000 WINDOW=5840 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0 \ [322228.464920] Shorewall:net2fw:DROP:IN=eth0
04:58:51 <zzo38> `run dmesg | tail
04:58:52 <HackEgo> [558479.134212] Shorewall:net2fw:DROP:IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=aa:00:00:59:ad:41:00:50:c2:98:e7:2e:08:00 SRC= DST= LEN=40 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=109 ID=256 PROTO=TCP SPT=6000 DPT=3389 WINDOW=16384 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0 \ [559599.708679] Shorewall:net2fw:DROP:IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=aa:00:00:59:ad:41:00:50:c2:98:e7:2e:08:00
04:59:41 <cpressey> `run df -j
04:59:43 <HackEgo> No output.
04:59:45 <cpressey> `run df -h
04:59:47 <HackEgo> No output.
04:59:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:59:56 <cpressey> `run df
04:59:57 -!- augur has joined.
04:59:59 <HackEgo> No output.
05:00:11 <alise> `run df 2>&1
05:00:14 <HackEgo> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
05:00:27 <cpressey> always a reassuring message
05:00:42 <cpressey> `run mount
05:00:45 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /sys type sysfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) \ none on /proc type proc (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) \ udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw,relatime,size=10240k,mode=755) \ /dev/disk/by-label/PRGMRDISK1 on / type ext3 (rw,relatime,errors=remount-ro,data=ordered) \ tmpfs on /lib/init/rw type tmpfs
05:00:55 <oerjan> `run echo $PATH
05:00:56 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.2556/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
05:00:57 * pikhq has the odd suspicion that Gregor would like prog rock...
05:01:13 <oerjan> cpressey: the number changes with each command
05:01:16 <cpressey> pikhq: as long as it's rubato
05:01:36 <Gregor> molto rubato!
05:01:38 <pikhq> cpressey: ...
05:01:57 <alise> IcedTea is a perfectly acceptable JVM, right?
05:02:03 <alise> Gregor: domo arigato molto rubato
05:02:34 <pikhq> "Domo arikàtô moruto ruhàto", you mean.
05:02:35 <Gregor> alise: IcedTea is HotSpot.
05:02:45 <alise> I mean the libraries and whatnot.
05:02:52 <pikhq> And yes, IcedTea is perfectly acceptable. I've been using it for a couple of years now with no problems.
05:03:26 <oerjan> rubatissimo
05:03:30 <Gregor> alise: The libraries are the standard JDK suite of libraries, with an extremely few bits replaced by open alternatives. Emphasis on "extremely few". The chances of you running into any issues is very low.
05:03:45 <alise> Alright then.
05:03:47 <Gregor> oerjan: "really quite stolen"
05:04:02 <alise> xD
05:04:17 <cpressey> as stolen as possible
05:04:29 <pikhq> Gregor: Said few bits were coincidentally done 100% perfectly by GCJ, IIRC.
05:04:41 <alise> prisencolinensinainciusol
05:04:43 <pikhq> So they just ported that over and had a full JVM in a weekend.
05:04:49 <Gregor> Pretty much.
05:05:14 <oerjan> alise: bless you
05:05:30 <alise> oerjan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUi6UEQh00
05:08:05 -!- myndzi has joined.
05:08:27 <pikhq> Gregor: Prog rock, just BTW, is basically rock that is not simplistic. :P
05:10:13 <alise> pikhq: well it depends
05:10:21 <alise> "prog" on its own has come to denote a certain genre in a way
05:10:30 <alise> distinct from older progressive rock
05:10:34 * cpressey cranks up the RUSH
05:10:46 <cpressey> *Rush
05:10:50 * pikhq is a-listening to Kansas' Magnum Opus (from Leftoverture)
05:10:55 <cpressey> (lang name habit)
05:11:08 <alise> PNKFLD
05:11:15 <zzo38> Please make some music with non-standard temperament
05:11:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Temperament?
05:11:26 <alise> I have a non-standard temperament. I'M ALWAYS ANGRY
05:11:27 <cpressey> And we cannot neglect Jethro Tull here
05:11:38 <pikhq> cpressey: Alas, I lack Jethro Tull.
05:11:42 <alise> cpressey: Yes! The agricultural pioneer.
05:11:55 <zzo38> alise: Not quite what I meant, though. But it is a start.
05:12:16 <cpressey> alise: YES
05:12:21 <cpressey> Also, "Yes"
05:12:35 <alise> pikhq: It's interesting how close some genres get to classical.
05:12:41 <zzo38> pikhq: I mean, like instead of using twelve-tone equal temperament, use something else, such as pythagorean, just intonation, Bohlen-Pierce, or whatever else
05:12:53 <zzo38> Both rational and irrational temperaments can be used.
05:12:57 <alise> Various genres of metal get quite close to classical quite often...
05:13:15 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. It's most notable for actually having complex music, as opposed to most other forms of rock music...
05:13:22 <cpressey> I swear there are some things that Rammstein does musically that are not far from Bach.
05:13:25 <pikhq> But yeah, metal tends to do that too.
05:13:36 <Sgeo> <3 xkcdb.com
05:13:45 <alise> pikhq: Post-rock is also as complex as progressive, and very close to classical.
05:13:46 <zzo38> (Equal temperament is irrational. Most other kinds of temperaments are rational. Both ways work, for different kind of music.)
05:13:50 <alise> In fact it's got very little rock in it.
05:14:08 <alise> There are guitars in it. Often they're played with a bow or some other such ridiculous stuff. Occasionally they're even overdriven.
05:14:10 <pikhq> alise: Okay, I guess other forms of popular rock music.
05:14:15 <alise> Fair enough.
05:14:30 <alise> Post-rock is a subgenre of progressive rock, I suppose.
05:14:35 <pikhq> Perhaps.
05:14:49 <cpressey> ♫ LOVE, LOVE ME DO ♫
05:14:49 * Sgeo hits alise with a Bucket
05:14:50 <Gregor> Is that short for "post-modern rock"
05:14:56 <Gregor> Or "post-post-modern rock"
05:15:09 <pikhq> cpressey: I *hate* early Beatles.
05:15:13 <pikhq> cpressey: *Hate hate hate*.
05:15:20 <alise> early beatles = monkees
05:15:21 <cpressey> pikhq: I thought at least *one* person here would..
05:15:32 <pikhq> Those guys damned well needed marijuana.
05:15:35 <cpressey> I was going for "regressive rock".
05:15:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
05:15:39 * Sgeo hates anyone who uses the word hate for any reason, including obvious quotations, even quotations that don't have quote marks.
05:15:41 <alise> I am not the biggest Beatles fan.
05:16:01 <pikhq> alise: Second half of their career had a lot of good stuff.
05:16:17 <alise> Yeah, I know.
05:16:23 <Sgeo> Most music is the same to me: Awesome
05:16:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Including yourself?
05:16:45 * pikhq is, oddly enough, quite fond of what most people just call "bizarre and pretentious" of theirs.
05:16:47 <Sgeo> zzo38, that was the point
05:16:49 <pikhq> Mmm, "Revolution Nine".
05:17:08 <alise> Revolution Nine is... a botched attempt at creating something avant garde, imo.
05:17:35 * Sgeo youtubes
05:17:44 * Sgeo verbs websites
05:17:45 <alise> you've never heard Revolution Nine?
05:17:47 <alise> you're really weird.
05:17:54 <alise> *Revolution 9
05:17:57 <alise> WE'RE ALL SO WRONG
05:18:06 <zzo38> Try writing a few notes in non-standard temperament, even just for experiment at first
05:18:13 <alise> Actually every time I read "The White Album" it irks me.
05:18:21 <pikhq> alise: Proto-techno, perhaps.
05:18:27 <alise> It's ... not techno.
05:18:31 <pikhq> Erm.
05:18:34 <pikhq> Wrong. Word.
05:18:36 <pikhq> Think.
05:18:38 <alise> Musique concrète, yes.
05:18:41 <Sgeo> I have found a song that really grates my ears!
05:18:47 <alise> Sgeo: Which is?
05:18:51 <Sgeo> Revolution 9
05:18:57 <zzo38> You might know the standard music follow the frequency 2^(n/12)
05:19:10 <Sgeo> Maybe it was just one ... /me ills
05:19:15 <zzo38> Now try making music with frequencies 3^(n/13) instead
05:19:16 <alise> *grates* your ears?
05:19:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's not commonly appreciated.
05:19:21 <alise> it's not very interesting, but grates?
05:19:43 <GreaseMonkey> yeah i might actually try it for once
05:19:48 <pikhq> What with being rather bizarre for a rock band.
05:19:50 <pikhq> :P
05:19:52 <Sgeo> alise, well, parts, at least
05:19:57 <cpressey> Wait what?
05:20:21 <pikhq> cpressey: Mmm?
05:20:23 <GreaseMonkey> actually is there a good, open-source program for composing in bohlen-pierce?
05:20:26 <cpressey> zzo38: I'm pretty sure I tried a non-standard temperament once on a C64.
05:20:45 * Sgeo rinses his ears with Torley Linden
05:21:04 <cpressey> Hey, GreaseMonkey: What is your quit message supposed to mean?
05:21:15 <alise> It means LIFE.
05:21:16 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: I don't know. What I would like to have is something that you can compose any temperament, like METAFONT but with music
05:21:26 <GreaseMonkey> cpressey: lemme find it, it's from a megazeux game
05:21:30 <zzo38> Also sort of like TeX but with music.
05:21:34 <GreaseMonkey> you'll need to change one byte from 01 to 02
05:21:42 <alise> TeX but with music -- you mean LilyPond.
05:21:47 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: that is indeed a start on the quest for its meaning
05:21:53 <GreaseMonkey> as it was misconverted
05:22:06 <zzo38> alise: Not quite... I mean something a bit different, it is harder to explain.
05:22:14 <zzo38> It is not simply like TeX or METAFONT
05:22:27 <alise> zzo38: like something that can output to midi too?
05:22:29 <GreaseMonkey> http://vault.digitalmzx.net/show.php?id=1446
05:22:31 <GreaseMonkey> cpressey: ^
05:22:34 <zzo38> But also somewhat like MML (Music Macro Language), but that you can redefine, and stuff
05:22:37 <GreaseMonkey> apparently the fixed version was uploaded
05:22:53 <pikhq> And now: Decemberists.
05:22:54 <GreaseMonkey> you'll need megazeux
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05:23:22 <zzo38> You could have output to MIDI, but would be prefer a different format so that you can write the synthesis as well, and also macros, and other things
05:23:27 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: I am enlightened. and I approve.
05:25:19 <zzo38> I also have a fork of MegaZeux. Which one you use depend on various things. Old world files are better using my program, also there is new features. New files with the newest format require the official one (from the vault). Also the official one you can get for many operating system you do not have to compile it by yourself
05:25:47 <cpressey> someone needs to turn megazeux into an operating system
05:26:15 <zzo38> cpressey: I have no intention for such a things though.
05:26:55 <cpressey> drat
05:27:41 <zzo38> But if you have question about some internal function of MegaZeux, or about the new features that I have added in to MegaZeux, you can ask a question
05:28:17 <cpressey> have you ever played Rings of Zon? It's no MegaZeux, but it's similar
05:28:58 <GreaseMonkey> nope :/
05:29:02 <zzo38> cpressey: No.
05:29:11 <GreaseMonkey> is it ZZT by any chance?
05:29:20 <zzo38> And I can't find a Wikipedia page for Rings of Zon
05:29:54 <zzo38> More MegaZeux game is my game series "Super ASCII MZX Town".
05:30:01 <cpressey> It was a pretty obscure game (Amiga only I think)
05:30:07 <cpressey> ZZT is also a nice game
05:30:18 <zzo38> In Part II (not finish yet), it even has talking spiders and talking tree. And also the Spanish Inquisition. And other things.
05:30:30 <GreaseMonkey> ZZT is really quite screwy
05:30:38 <GreaseMonkey> you can do so much with player clones
05:30:43 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Yes it is, and they even lost the source-codes
05:30:49 <GreaseMonkey> and there's several ways to crash it
05:31:04 <GreaseMonkey> my personal favourite is to put a movement command inside a scroll
05:31:12 <zzo38> But one project I work on is the "CZZT", which is a reimplementation of ZZT written in Enhanced CWEB and SDL
05:31:34 <zzo38> And then this program can also be published as a book, too.
05:31:53 <GreaseMonkey> that reminds me, i should consider working on JZT
05:32:13 <GreaseMonkey> btw zzo38, there's some really screwy stuff i documented in the thread for tyger
05:32:17 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Yes maybe you can consider it if you want to
05:32:19 <GreaseMonkey> i suggest you have a look at it
05:32:26 <GreaseMonkey> it pertains to ZZT-OOP
05:32:37 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: I will look at it, but some of the things I might already know
05:33:14 <zzo38> Which file(s) do you want me to look at?
05:34:04 <zzo38> Is there any other book about ZZT? CZZT might be the first one, possibly.
05:35:10 <GreaseMonkey> zzo38: http://zzt.belsambar.net/fora/viewtopic.php?p=64118#64118
05:36:07 <cpressey> JZT, I assume, is ZZT on the Java platform?
05:36:21 <GreaseMonkey> yes
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05:37:08 <zzo38> Thanks, that does help. Now I can figure out what algorithm was probably used for reading the commands
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05:41:41 <zzo38> CZZT is designed only for small-endian computers, please!
05:42:30 <cpressey> alise: remember PopLife? that blitter Game of Life for the Amiga? It does work in UAE!
05:42:49 <alise> cpressey: sweet
05:42:51 <alise> cpressey: decipher the code
05:45:45 <cpressey> ha
05:50:51 <alise> Goodnight.
05:50:54 <alise> Bye.
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06:02:27 <zzo38> I got everything I have already defined in the WEBMATH font to work correctly.
06:02:27 <zzo38> But I would still like help, for some things
06:02:27 <zzo38> Like, suggest design for the "typewriter control graphics", which are symbols used to represent '\r' and '\n' and so on.
06:02:27 <zzo38> And do you know how to draw a picture of a spider and spider web in METAFONT?
06:02:27 <zzo38> Any other characters you think should be added?
06:09:13 <cpressey> Nope, this is one area in which I know nothing at all, sorry.
06:16:39 <GreaseMonkey> oh yes this bug is awesome: http://zzt.belsambar.net/fora/viewtopic.php?t=3161
06:16:52 <GreaseMonkey> i had NEVER found this bug until today
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06:19:56 * Sgeo growls at the Family Research Council stealing the real FRC's ancronym
06:22:21 <GreaseMonkey> FRC = ?
06:22:42 <pikhq> Fantasy Rules Commission.
06:22:53 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
06:23:02 <Sgeo> Committee
06:28:12 * Sgeo should learn to speak Val$ar
06:29:31 <Sgeo> Val$ar should be the official language of nomics
06:31:10 <pikhq> No, no, no. Esperanto written with kanji should be the official language of nomics. :P
06:31:57 <pikhq> 良今、我 思今。
06:32:02 <pikhq> (Bonas, mi pensas.)
06:32:26 * Sgeo wonders what the Lojban equiv. of ti and tiyi is. Probably lo for both,
06:32:32 * Sgeo pokes Warrigal
06:35:40 <Sgeo> Huh
06:35:45 <Sgeo> person is womanman
06:35:59 <Sgeo> (person = ejep, woman = ej, man = ep)
06:37:56 <Sgeo> ok!
06:40:34 <Sgeo> khavir ol ej
06:46:00 <Sgeo> +++i++++iu+i+i++iu+
06:50:30 <Sgeo> "but I am
06:50:30 <Sgeo> >left wondering in exactly what sense I have bought the big fish."
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07:51:16 * Sgeo has a hard time defining the boundary between reality and fantasy
07:51:52 <Sgeo> Does U.S. Law, which might contain legal fictions (corporate personhood, for example), constitute a fictitious world?
07:57:48 <Sgeo> I just monolouged to someone who probably doesn't care :/
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09:17:00 <Ilari> Sgeo: Are laws that pruport to be based on science but have absolutely no basis on ralisty legal ficition too? :-)
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09:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, ralisty!
09:21:22 <Ilari> *reality
09:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Pruport!
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09:53:02 <Vorpal> reading the DWARF standard it seems overly complex...
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09:56:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Operation Hatheist update!
09:57:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The Pope apparently doesn't wear his hat when not doing mass.
09:57:39 <Phantom_Hoover> As such, the hat will have to be stolen in Glasgow!
09:57:47 <Vorpal> mhm
09:58:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, is it just me or is the music slightly out of sync with the video in that video you posted yesterday? Hm and now the download just failed halfway through again.
09:58:46 <Vorpal> at 74.6%
09:59:04 <Vorpal> so not halfway
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10:03:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, link?
10:04:01 <Quadrescence> oh my god i found a picture of alise
10:04:53 <augur> Quadrescence!
10:04:59 <augur> ive seen video of alise
10:05:36 <Quadrescence> here is his pic http://i.imgur.com/YezAe.jpg
10:05:56 <augur> not him
10:06:01 <augur> tho i'd fuck that kid hard
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10:06:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sec
10:06:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04OAykpufuM
10:06:39 <Quadrescence> augur: where is a pic of you
10:06:47 <augur> nowhere!
10:09:26 <Quadrescence> augur: please may i see a photo of u
10:09:34 <augur> facebook / psygnisfive
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11:05:53 <Vorpal> ah finally it downloads completely
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11:12:20 <oklofok> "<cpressey> I swear there are some things that Rammstein does musically that are not far from Bach." <<< yeah bach loved to repeat a two note sequence for 2 minutes straight
11:12:32 <Vorpal> oklofok, XD
11:14:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, very nicely played in that video
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11:19:22 <oklofok> i mean take something like, repeat it 8 times, then put in some wonky keyboard sounds every now and then and sing a verse about fucking your girlfriend with your manly penis, then sing a chorus with some overused chord sequence like 085(10)
11:19:34 <oklofok> and repeat this a couple times
11:19:38 <oklofok> and you have a hit rammstein song
11:20:06 <oklofok> i guess you need to optimize the chorus melody a bit (and actually have one)
11:20:26 <oklofok> also that riff may be from somewhere, i aimed for extremely trivial
11:21:32 <oklofok>|||5.5.555.333.1.3.
11:21:48 <oklofok> see, it's not at all rammstein now that i actually added a few notes
11:22:35 <oklofok> but with that addition, maybe the chorus should start at 5
11:23:45 <oklofok> cpressey: in other words, can you elaborate?
11:24:08 <oklofok> :----------------------------------------P
11:28:40 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey does not elaborate.
11:34:18 <oklofok> he might?!?
11:35:29 <Phantom_Hoover> NEVER
11:42:36 <oklofok> :''-(
11:45:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re "music out of sync", the youtube video description apologises for av sync issues, so t's probably not just you.
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11:45:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, didn't see that due to using youtube.dl
11:45:49 <Vorpal> youtube-dl*
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14:47:15 <alise> hi
14:47:45 <impomatic> Hi Alise
14:47:51 <alise> oh hi
14:55:28 <alise> wow, it seems Canonical are actually paying Fraunhofer MP3 licensing fees
14:55:40 <alise> "MPEG Layer-3 audio decoding technology licensed from Fraunhofer IIS and Thomson"
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15:33:18 <alise> foobar2000 is rubbish in WINE
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15:37:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what IRC client do you use?
15:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> XChat..?
15:38:03 <alise> Darn.
15:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
15:38:28 <alise> I'm attempting to make it not-ugly colour-wise, but I'd rather just use something else.
15:38:32 <alise> The little niggles are getting to me.
15:38:45 <alise> Why the hell doesn't it use native GTK+ selections? Who knows!
15:38:54 <alise> Why does it open the main menu when you right click unselected text? Who knows!
15:39:09 <alise> Why is it so doggone weird? Whoooo knoooows!
15:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I get a colour thing in the preferences, but I suspect you've noticed that.
15:40:46 <alise> Yeah.
15:40:51 <alise> It's just a pain to fiddle around with it.
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15:49:55 <alise> WHY OH WHY DOES IT DO THIS TO ME
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16:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, have you developed immunity to C++?
16:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Forget it, then.
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16:44:00 <Vorpal> Deewiant, do you have efunge checked out?
16:44:19 <Vorpal> if so, it is possible you have to upgrade repo format since I did that for the launchpad branches.
16:44:21 <Deewiant> Not in this OS
16:44:30 <Deewiant> How does that happen
16:44:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/upgrade-guide/index.html#migrating-local-branches-after-a-central-trunk-has-migrated
16:44:48 <Deewiant> Alright, thanks for the heads up
16:45:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, basically, the new format is not backwards compat. And bzr in the last version started bugging me about the current one being obsolete
16:45:22 <Vorpal> Deewiant, will probably do cfunge too later today
16:45:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, you might want to be aware of that too
16:50:44 <alise> "I’m funded from social security disability for being insane." --LoseThos developer.
16:50:52 <alise> I have absolutely no doubts about the veracity of this claim
16:50:54 <alise> *claim.
17:00:21 <alise> Vorpal: explain why Conspire's site has disappeared
17:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, like CWC, then.
17:01:26 <Vorpal> alise, how should I know? I don't use that software...
17:01:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ?
17:01:31 <alise> Vorpal: you recommended it once
17:01:59 <Vorpal> alise, I think I said it looked like a promising alternative to xchat or something like that
17:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Chris Chandler? Whipping boy of the internet?
17:02:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ??
17:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, ???
17:02:47 <alise> oh, him.
17:03:00 <alise> i have better things to do than fill my head with Encyclopedia Dramatica articles, although, admittedly, not /much/ better.
17:03:29 <Phantom_Hoover> His TV Tropes entry is actually split into two sections.
17:03:42 <Phantom_Hoover> It's insane.
17:04:12 <Vorpal> mhm, never heard of him
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17:16:27 <afaulds> hi
17:16:30 <alise> Hi.
17:16:38 <afaulds> I made a language, but it needs an interpreter
17:16:52 <afaulds> and I'm too new to C to write a good one
17:16:53 <afaulds> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
17:16:54 <Phantom_Hoover> afaulds, spec?
17:17:02 <afaulds> there you go
17:17:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't need to write an interpreter in C.
17:17:43 <afaulds> yes
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17:21:32 <Vorpal> Deewiant, fizzie: upgraded cfunge trunk too now.
17:22:10 <afaulds> I might try writing one in javascript
17:22:25 <Vorpal> you and anyone else that have it checked out: http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/upgrade-guide/index.html#migrating-local-branches-after-a-central-trunk-has-migrated
17:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> afaulds, what went wrong when trying to write a C one?
17:23:05 <Vorpal> Deewiant, fizzie: use bzr info to find current url, then just check out that url again (in another dir obviously) and move over the build directory (if inside the old one)
17:23:32 <Vorpal> and then rename the new one so it has the same name as the old one did (cmake by default uses absolute paths)
17:23:40 <cpressey> ♫ it's time for the (deviating) percolator, it's time for the (deviating) percolator ♫
17:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> afaulds, also, I think it could be compiled easily enough.
17:23:56 <afaulds> how
17:24:30 <afaulds> but then the compiler must factor in every possible interpretation of the program?
17:24:55 <alise> easy enough
17:24:57 * afaulds afk
17:25:06 <alise> well
17:25:09 <alise> not actually easy at all
17:25:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover is wrong
17:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> afaulds, oh, yes, instructions change.
17:25:14 <alise> it would have to interpret
17:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
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17:29:44 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean by "immunity"?
17:30:06 <Phantom_Hoover> That your brain doesn't go mushy when reading it.
17:32:45 * cpressey didn't think that was possible.
17:34:49 <cpressey> afaulds: What (non-esoteric) languages are you experienced with?
17:37:19 <oklofok> i think it's bad to have commands be words, would be easier to change semantics of your lines if commands were one letter
17:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Or even if it were possible to define IF to PERCOLATE.
17:39:38 <oklofok> anyway, once A contains Z, A and Z can never be separated again afaiu, see also forte
17:40:07 <oklofok> erm
17:40:08 <oklofok> oh
17:40:16 <oklofok> you don't take the transitive closure of lookup
17:40:23 <oklofok> so nevermind
17:40:32 <oklofok> (you might wanna clarify this!)
17:40:43 <oklofok> erm
17:40:56 <oklofok> maybe you do, i should read the rest
17:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps a quote operator?
17:41:29 <Phantom_Hoover> 'A is A regardless of whatever the A register contains.
17:42:08 <oklofok> you can just put A to M and use M to modify the register A
17:42:21 <oklofok> no matter what A contains, you'll be modifying A
17:42:34 <oklofok> i mean
17:42:36 <oklofok> afaiu
17:46:31 <afaulds> cpressey
17:46:33 <afaulds> back
17:46:39 <afaulds> erm. PHP and JS mostly
17:47:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I can preëmpt cpressey's response to the first of those.
17:47:42 <afaulds> hm?
17:47:55 <afaulds> "PHP IS NOT A VALID LANGUAGE"?
17:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> He's... not a fan of PHP.
17:48:09 <afaulds> A lot of people aren't
17:48:11 <afaulds> I can see why
17:48:17 <afaulds> it's a horrible mess of functions
17:48:24 <cpressey> I was mainly curious.
17:48:35 <Phantom_Hoover> http://catseye.tc/about/php.html
17:49:04 <afaulds> By "JS" I mean "JavaScript in Web Pages", not the command line thing
17:50:03 <afaulds> Phantom_Hoover: lol
17:50:28 <cpressey> It would be quite a bit easier (I think) to write an interpreter for DP in either PHP or JS, than it would be in C, so I'm not sure why C came up.
17:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I am informed that JS is a nice language, though I have had bad experiences with it.
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17:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I hear it has closures and such.
17:50:58 <afaulds> closures?
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17:51:18 <Sgeo> anonymous functions that capture variables from the enclosing scpe
17:51:20 <Sgeo> *scope
17:51:32 <afaulds> yes
17:51:34 <afaulds> it does
17:51:59 <cpressey> a = 10; f = function(b) { return b + a; }; return f
17:52:06 <cpressey> and such
17:52:07 <afaulds> yes that works
17:52:47 <afaulds> someone on espernet said "DevPerc is just as useful as Brainfuck"
17:52:50 <afaulds> I laughed
17:53:12 <afaulds> you can do a lot more with the latter that's actually useful
17:54:07 <zzo38> Do you know how to make synchronized audio in SDL?
17:54:35 <Sgeo> DevPerc isn't TC?
17:55:29 <afaulds> nope
17:55:46 <afaulds> at least, I don't think 26 bytes max space is turing complete
17:55:49 <afaulds> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
17:56:04 <zzo38> I don't think DevPerc is TC
17:56:05 <afaulds> and in reality you have significantly less
17:56:13 <afaulds> well
17:56:19 <afaulds> unless you used files
17:56:19 <Sgeo> Oh
17:56:20 <Sgeo> >.>
17:56:35 <afaulds> as there are no limits on input/output
17:56:44 <afaulds> so if you linked that to memory...
17:56:47 <Sgeo> I googled, and there's something for Amiga...
17:57:08 <afaulds> oh yeah, devpac
17:57:11 <madbrain> zzo: doesn't it involve making a callback?
17:57:13 <afaulds> something unrelated
17:57:30 <afaulds> I think I'll edit my page to clarify
17:57:38 <alise> Hey! I don't have Emacs!
17:57:43 * alise rectifies
17:58:42 <alise> afaulds: it reminds me of Fugue, a bit
17:58:56 <alise> also, once you define something once, you can never redefine it
17:58:58 <alise> unless you do
17:59:00 <alise> DEFINE A TO X
17:59:02 <alise> DEFINE X TO Y
17:59:04 <afaulds> yes
17:59:06 <alise> DEFINE A TO B
17:59:09 <alise> but then you lose A
17:59:13 <afaulds> yupyup
17:59:14 <afaulds> well
17:59:20 <alise> afaulds: i do think you should make commands single letters
17:59:23 <afaulds> you could then change A back by loosing Z
17:59:28 <afaulds> alise
17:59:33 <afaulds> I deliberately chose not to
17:59:40 <afaulds> to make it HARDER to program in
18:00:03 <afaulds> if someone wants to make an easier single-letter derivative, go ahead
18:00:27 <alise> "/ - Line Comment" ;; not //?
18:01:57 <cpressey> In case anyone would like to hear the actual 'percolator' song I was referring to earlier, I found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S-Ti1Aqx1c
18:02:17 <afaulds> alise: yes. I had // but decided / was simpler
18:02:45 <afaulds> it's esoteric after all :D
18:05:03 <Phantom_Hoover> afaulds, incidentally, memory isn't 26B.
18:05:12 <afaulds> oh?
18:05:41 <afaulds> why not?
18:06:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, it is.
18:06:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I got confuzzled over types.
18:06:57 <afaulds> :/
18:10:16 <zzo38> madbrain: Audio in SDL does involve making a callback. It is a separate thread so I need synchroized
18:10:23 <cpressey> I've never written a re-entrant parser!
18:10:27 <cpressey> I need to do that!
18:10:38 <oklofok> "<alise> also, once you define something once, you can never redefine it" "<alise> afaulds: i do think you should make commands single letters" <<< stop repeating me
18:10:57 <Sgeo> http://no-http.org/
18:11:01 <afaulds> what
18:11:01 <oklofok> first one is not true, as i elaborated
18:11:10 <afaulds> yes
18:11:15 <afaulds> you can change it
18:11:21 <afaulds> but you loose another variable
18:11:56 <oklofok> yes but you'll always have just one var that's unusable right
18:12:03 <afaulds> or several
18:12:09 <oklofok> oh hmm
18:12:24 <afaulds> in fact to store anything you need to point one to another. so set y to x, then change x, and access it through y
18:13:39 -!- impomatic has left (?).
18:13:53 <zzo38> How can I make audio synchronize in SDL?
18:13:54 <afaulds> basically, it's really hard to do anything really
18:15:49 <cpressey> zzo38: I'm guessing here. A condition variable? So your audio thread can wait for your main thread?
18:16:29 <zzo38> cpressey: In SDL, you don't set up the audio thread using the thread commands, it automatically set up the audio thread using SDL_OpenAudio command.
18:17:42 <cpressey> zzo38: I don't see offhand how that would be a big obstacle; you can still create a global condition variable, and share it between the threads, unless I'm mistaken.
18:18:11 <cpressey> I mean, SDL may hate you, if you try, but...
18:18:43 <zzo38> But there doesn't seem to be a command to access the audio thread!
18:19:34 <fizzie> You have that audio callback, that's called in the audio thread.
18:20:24 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it is called in the audio thread. But the audio thread is managed only by SDL itself.
18:21:09 <cpressey> zzo38: I think the idea is that you write code that is called in the audio thread; so, from that code, you can access that thread.
18:21:38 <fizzie> Yes, but why is that a problem? You can either spend time waiting in the callback if SDL doesn't mind, or use a separate synchronous-audio buffer so that the callback can happen fast (as long as the buffer's not empty).
18:21:50 <cpressey> For example you could call pthread_self() in the audio callback (assuming pthreads).
18:22:33 <zzo38> No, I have to use SDL threads. And I am not quite sure that the SDL threads are actually available for the audio thread, anyways.
18:23:05 <zzo38> There is SDL_LockAudio() and SDL_UnlockAudio()
18:23:16 <zzo38> I don't quite know where to put these in the right places.
18:23:20 <fizzie> That just makes the callback not be called during that time, IIRC.
18:23:43 <olsner> eugh, SDL
18:24:01 <olsner> it sounds like you're doing something way too advanced for SDL :P
18:24:05 <alise> SDL is alright
18:27:24 <cpressey> OK, well, if SDL is forcing you to use 'SDL threads' which aren't defined well enough to support synchronization, then, you can't synchronize :)
18:27:52 <fizzie> What I'd do would be: have a buffer of suitable size, and a mutex M and condition C. Then your synchronous audio write does (e.g.) "SDL_mutexP(M); while (buffer-is-full) SDL_CondWait(C, M); write_stuff_to_buffer(); SDL_mutexV(M);" and your audio callback does "SDL_mutexP(M); write_some_audio_out_from_buffer(); SDL_CondBroadcast(C); SDL_mutexV(M);".
18:27:55 <zzo38> SDL threads can synchronize, I think.
18:28:16 <zzo38> But SDL audio doesn't provide access to SDL thread, I think.
18:28:30 <zzo38> fizzie: I can try that, to see if it works.
18:28:33 <cpressey> There's no SDL_SelfThread()?
18:28:40 <fizzie> You don't need the thread ID for anything; it's enough to know that it happens in a different thread.
18:29:04 <fizzie> cpressey: There's SDL_ThreadID() which returns the current thread ID, but I see no use for that here.
18:29:08 <zzo38> There is. But it says the call back function "This function usually runs in a separate thread"
18:30:47 <cpressey> OK; I agree, if SDL provides condvars like so, I guess you don't need to know what the current thread is to use them.
18:30:54 <Sgeo> Well, my school mandated AV is being slow
18:31:06 <Sgeo> It seems to have made EICAR look like a 0-byte file
18:31:15 <Sgeo> Then, a few minutes later, pop up a warning
18:31:34 <zzo38> It says it *usually* runs in separate thread, but does somethings doesn't?
18:33:09 <fizzie> I can't find the "sometimes" bit in the SDL docs, but on the other hand I can't find any reference to the audio thread either. You could take a look at the code. I think it's very likely it runs in a separate thread at least on those platforms where the whole threading stuff is supported.
18:33:52 <zzo38> For now I just have it unsynchronized
18:34:26 <cpressey> if (SDL_ThreadID() == main_tid) abort("SDL hates me");
18:34:50 <fizzie> cpressey: abort() doesn't take an argument. :p
18:36:37 * cpressey failed the exam
18:36:50 <zzo38> Why do they have to use RapidShare for the BytePusher programs?
18:41:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:43:07 <cpressey> "we will not spy out the files that our clients faithfully upload onto RapidShare, not now nor in future. We are against upload control and guarantee you that your files are safe with us and will not be opened by anyone else than yourself, unless you distribute the download link."
18:43:12 <cpressey> RapidShare: the Swiss bank of the internet.
18:44:21 <afaulds> yup
18:44:54 <fizzie> I guess you could make things very hard-synchronized to the audio output, too; make the audio buffer size equal to one BytePusher frame -- 256 samples -- and have the audio callback SDL_PushEvent() a user-defined "compute one more frame" event; then have a main event loop that executes one frame's worth of instructions whenever it gets that event. SDL_PushEvent is threadsafe, you should be able to call it whether or not the audio callback is in a separate threa
18:44:54 <fizzie> d or not. That sort of thing will probably break pretty badly if you don't manage to run the 65536 ByteByteJump instructions fast enough, so that the events start to pile up.
18:45:10 <alise> Vorpal: do you still have Helvetica Neue?
18:45:12 <afaulds> cpressey
18:45:16 <afaulds> wait isn't it swiss?
18:45:24 <afaulds> they use euros
18:45:41 <cpressey> afaulds: German-owned but run out of Switzerland
18:45:45 <cpressey> according to WP
18:46:59 <afaulds> ah
18:47:03 <afaulds> as I thought
18:47:25 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: do you still have Helvetica Neue? <-- no clue. Why?
18:47:32 <afaulds> I judged based on their accent and currency. There are some videos from the rapidshare marketing dept. on the site
18:47:57 <Vorpal> alise, I presume I have it somewhere, even if not installed
18:48:12 <alise> Vorpal: because I gave it to you and I'd like it back :-P
18:48:26 <Vorpal> alise, ah but you gave me a copy, that is how digital stuff works
18:48:47 <alise> yes, but the machine that i have it on,
18:48:48 <alise> is in a box
18:48:51 <alise> unplugged
18:48:55 <alise> without a keyboard or mouse
18:48:59 <alise> so i would quite appreciate the file
18:49:01 <alise> :P
18:49:07 <Vorpal> alise, will look in a few seconds
18:49:27 <Vorpal> alise, right after I get rid of this irritating fly
18:51:16 <alise> luxi mono sucks on linux, huh...
18:51:18 <Vorpal> alise, where do you like me to scp them? I assume you can set up a temp account on some suitable server. The one I normally use is not available atm due to data center problems
18:51:33 <alise> Vorpal: filebin.ca
18:51:40 <alise> use tor if you must
18:52:03 <Vorpal> alise, why would I trust tor. Probably NSA behind it ;)
18:52:03 <afaulds> Ohai wareya I see you found #esoteric too
18:52:17 <alise> Vorpal: Uhh... no.
18:52:26 <afaulds> actually
18:52:26 <alise> afaulds: he found it way before you :)
18:52:40 <afaulds> did you hear about all that stuff on wikileaks FROM tor?
18:52:41 * Sgeo growls at amount of homework
18:52:44 <afaulds> :/
18:52:58 <Vorpal> alise, I was joking
18:53:08 <alise> afaulds: in this case, the data leaking is unimportant
18:53:10 <alise> only its origin
18:53:17 <afaulds> yes
18:55:35 * alise gets Monaco on Linux
18:55:36 <alise> woot
18:58:22 <alise> unfortunately no bold version and the false bold is hideous
18:58:35 <Vorpal> alise, http://filebin.ca/rauedb/fonts.pax.xz
18:58:53 <alise> Openly breaking the law? Shock!
18:59:07 <alise> Thanks for making me install xz. I'm sure the file's huge. :P
18:59:07 <Vorpal> alise, well I don't. You own a legal copy of them.
18:59:18 <alise> But others don't!
18:59:25 <Vorpal> alise, what is wrong with xz?
18:59:27 <alise> ...I still think it's illegal; redistribution is prohibited.
18:59:30 <alise> Nothing, just amusing.
18:59:56 <alise> Vorpal: I don't suppose I gave you any Monaco ones?
18:59:58 <Vorpal> alise, arch packages use xz these days
19:00:00 <alise> I'm sure I did...
19:00:01 <alise> Thanks a lot, btw.
19:00:08 <Vorpal> alise, not any that I saw in that directory
19:00:12 <Vorpal> and if they are elsewhere: no clue
19:00:28 <Vorpal> alise, it had LucidaGrande though
19:00:43 -!- lament has joined.
19:01:31 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I would be surprised if xz is not installed by standard on modern distros
19:01:32 <alise> Oh, right.
19:01:35 <Vorpal> like bzip2 and such
19:01:37 <alise> Not in Ubuntu, it seems.
19:01:46 <alise> <Vorpal> I said modern distros
19:01:56 <Vorpal> ... what?
19:02:11 * Phantom_Hoover has xz installed on Ubuntu.
19:02:16 <Vorpal> alise, btw I did consider using shar + compress first or something silly like that
19:02:20 <Phantom_Hoover> And I can't remember installing it.
19:02:27 <Vorpal> alise, but I didn't have the relevant stuff installed
19:02:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you install lzma stuff?
19:02:53 <alise> Ahh, Helvetica Neue is filling the gap of a nice sans font.
19:02:54 <Vorpal> since xz replaced lzma
19:03:05 <alise> For IRC etc.
19:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I don't remember installing that either.
19:03:12 <Vorpal> alise, nothing wrong with dejavu sans. Very readable on screen
19:03:23 <alise> I don't like it in XChat; XChat renders text strangely.
19:03:37 <alise> I think it fucks with the letter-spacing; it /definitely/ has too little line spacing.
19:03:41 <Vorpal> alise, dejavu sans mono is perfect in xchat in my experience
19:03:52 <alise> Allow me to quote ais523.
19:03:59 <Vorpal> hm?
19:04:00 <alise> 09:52:57 <Sgeo> alise, you don't use Dejavu Sans Mono?
19:04:01 <alise> 09:53:08 <ais523> Sgeo: monospace for /IRC/?
19:04:07 <alise> [...]
19:04:07 <alise> 09:53:23 <ais523> I know it's common, but I can't see any reason why you'd do that except to make myndzi's /o/ thing work properly
19:04:17 <alise> I have the support of ais523; my position is therefore unquestionable.
19:04:32 <Vorpal> alise, um services output
19:04:44 <alise> Because I ask services for help every day.
19:04:48 <alise> (It's still readable, just not perfectly aligned.)
19:05:05 <Vorpal> alise, hm, I guess running an irc network means you need to do that quite a bit more often
19:05:30 <Vorpal> alise, also other output than help
19:05:39 <Vorpal> though mostly of interest to opers I guess
19:05:52 <Phantom_Hoover> \o/
19:05:53 <myndzi>
19:05:53 <myndzi>
19:05:59 <alise> Monaco renders surprisingly well here.
19:06:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ...What?
19:06:05 <cpressey> appropriate!
19:06:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, xchat?
19:06:16 * Phantom_Hoover concludes that the drawing is of Cthulhu.
19:06:22 <Phantom_Hoover> \o\
19:06:23 <myndzi> |
19:06:23 <myndzi> /`\
19:06:26 <Vorpal> it doesn't line up here at all
19:06:40 <Vorpal> I'm using same type of nick alignment as xchat does
19:06:54 <alise> I love how Monaco 9 is the bitmapped version.
19:06:59 <Vorpal> that is, nicks aligned right against a separator, and text aligned left on the other side
19:07:09 <alise> Not a terribly legible font on a high-ppi display, though.
19:07:40 <Vorpal> alise, bitmapped fonts are rather dpi dependent indeed
19:08:26 <zzo38> I use monospace for IRC
19:08:38 * cpressey 's jaw drops
19:08:41 * cpressey loves C
19:08:50 <cpressey> isspace() won't compain if you pass it a pointer
19:08:56 <alise> it's a macro
19:08:57 <alise> so yeah.
19:09:04 <Vorpal> damn, alise beat me to it
19:09:10 <alise> cpressey: that's gotta be some usage though :D
19:09:16 <cpressey> I knew it was a macro -- that's no real excuse
19:09:26 * alise thinks about how to fix it
19:09:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, gcc? -Wall -Wextra -pedantic ?
19:09:41 <zzo38> There are a few ways to fix the macro
19:09:48 <Vorpal> that might give you some reaction
19:10:47 <alise> Hmm, I can't think how exactly.
19:10:58 <zzo38> Which alignments are common in IRC? (I guess the one Vorpal specified can mean all message from anyone lined up with each other)
19:11:13 <alise> zzo38: that, and left-aligned
19:11:20 <cpressey> Vorpal: I think I'm already using all warning options
19:11:22 <zzo38> alise: Yes
19:11:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, left aligned "<nick> message" is also common
19:11:30 <alise> XChat can actually do that.
19:11:31 <Vorpal> don't think I seen any other ones
19:12:07 <zzo38> Vorpal: Some have the time, I think? But usually they are all aligned due to HH:MM:SS with leading zeros
19:12:07 <Vorpal> alise, I find that the xchat way of aligning it increases readability
19:12:18 <Vorpal> compared to left alignment
19:12:20 <alise> Vorpal: Tell that to Shakespeare.
19:12:20 <cpressey> just tried -ansi -pedantic -- no change with those either
19:12:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm...
19:12:23 <cpressey> anyway
19:12:27 <Vorpal> alise, hah
19:12:38 <alise> Vorpal: After all, plays are set in the left-aligned format.
19:12:43 <zzo38> cpressey: Maybe, change the macro to make it different
19:13:06 <alise> wtf @ Emacs set-background-color
19:13:07 <cpressey> arabic chatrooms might do well right-aligned
19:13:09 <alise> it doesn't let you enter fucking rgb!
19:13:28 <Sgeo> XChat has a varying number of spaces between timestamp and nick
19:13:29 <alise> only when called from lisp
19:13:37 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but doing it this way by hand would be more annoying. Also quite often longer lines. No line in the last screen-full had to be split over more than one line on screen for me
19:13:46 <Vorpal> well, except that one I just said XD
19:13:50 <alise> wtf Emacs
19:13:52 <alise> what you think is 10pt
19:13:53 <olsner> apparently, the isspace macro includes a cast to (int)
19:13:53 <alise> is actually smaller
19:13:57 <alise> than what the rest of my programs think is 10pt
19:14:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: In my computer there is not aligned in either of those two ways. But instead it use color-coding. Messages are colored blue!
19:14:05 <Vorpal> alise, it probably got confused by DPI?
19:14:12 <Sgeo> Is there anything that I like that alise won't hate during my duration of liking it
19:14:12 <Sgeo> ?
19:14:18 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, 96 is a really confusing dpi setting
19:14:19 <zzo38> olsner: Why does it include a cast to (int)?
19:14:26 <alise> maybe X11 guesses it as something else and Emacs looks at that instead
19:14:29 <alise> Sgeo: breathing
19:14:30 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you said you used high-DPI?
19:14:33 <alise> which you are now doing manually
19:14:35 <Vorpal> or was that another monitor
19:14:39 <alise> Vorpal: yes, but shit works better set to 96 dpi :P
19:14:46 <cpressey> olsner: at least it had the decency to segfault when i passed it the pointer -- i could have spent a good few hours in confusion if it hasn't
19:14:48 <Vorpal> alise, as for x11 guess. Let me find the program
19:14:49 <cpressey> *hadn't
19:14:50 <zzo38> Change the macro if you do not like it
19:15:04 <Vorpal> $ xdpyinfo | grep resolution
19:15:04 <Vorpal> resolution: 90x88 dots per inch
19:15:05 <Vorpal> wtf?
19:15:06 <alise> greaaat, it doesn't let me try Monospace 10.5 pt
19:15:08 <Vorpal> that isn't right
19:15:16 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Downloads/helvetica$ xdpyinfo | grep resolution
19:15:16 <alise> resolution: 96x96 dots per inch
19:15:20 <cpressey> zzo38: I've written my own isspace() before, and I'll do it again if I have to :)
19:15:23 <Vorpal> I'm absolutely certain I have square pixels
19:15:25 <Vorpal> on this thing
19:15:48 <Vorpal> dimensions: 1680x1050 pixels (474x303 millimeters)
19:15:49 <Vorpal> hm
19:15:53 <Vorpal> that doesn't look right
19:15:57 * Vorpal looks for a ruler
19:15:57 * cpressey wants five-sided pixels
19:16:07 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Downloads/helvetica$ xrdb -query
19:16:07 <alise> Xft.dpi:96
19:16:24 <zzo38> cpressey: Which program are you writing? If you are writing a C program, you can also try using Enhanced CWEB (if you have TeX installed).
19:16:26 <alise> Vorpal: i doubt your monitor is that big.
19:16:47 <alise> More specifically, it tells libXft to use said DPI. If it exists,
19:16:48 <alise> libXft adds that value (a double) to the patterns it sends on to
19:16:48 <alise> fontconfig.
19:16:48 <alise> If it does not exist, libXft uses DisplayHeight * 25.4 / DisplayHeightMM.
19:16:48 <alise> I believe it uses those two (prefering the Xft.dpi value) only if the
19:16:48 <alise> application hasn't already specified FC_DPI in the fontconfig pattern.
19:16:50 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. it seems closer to 470x300 mm
19:17:15 <alise> Vorpal: oh, then it is that big
19:17:22 <Sgeo> alise forgot to breathe
19:17:25 <Vorpal> alise, and yes I have a large desktop monitor
19:17:34 <alise> what's that in diagonal inches?
19:17:37 <fizzie> I used to get something really confusing out of xdpyinfo in a former multi-monitor setup, but now when everything's a different screen, it just lists them separately.
19:18:08 <Vorpal> alise, I don't have any ruler with any non-SI scale alas. But it is longer than my longest ruler. My longest ruler is 50 cm
19:18:41 <alise> they don't print inches on the other side of the ruler in Sweden?
19:18:51 <Vorpal> alise, not commonly no
19:19:02 <alise> i guess they only do that in the uk since inches are occasionally used by normal people and always used by old people
19:19:13 <olsner> I think we stopped using inches like a couple of hundred years ago
19:19:15 <alise> perhaps because we state height in feet and inches; it's for *really* short people
19:19:16 <Vorpal> alise, Sweden been on metric way longer
19:19:17 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/xdpyinfo -- no idea how accurate *those* are.
19:19:25 <Vorpal> olsner, yeah something like that
19:19:31 <zzo38> I use both metric and inches, depending on what is being measured
19:19:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, 524x321 ?
19:19:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:20:11 <fizzie> I think I've had a combined metric/inch ruler, but certainly not all of them have had those.
19:20:22 <cpressey> hi ais523
19:20:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I seen ones, but I don't have any such myself
19:20:38 <ais523> hi cpressey
19:20:53 <ais523> fizzie: the vast majority of rulers here in the UK have both inches and centimetres
19:20:55 <zzo38> For measuring the temperature of an oven, I will use Fahrenheit but for weather and most other temperature I can use Celsius, but for absolute temperature, and physics and other science stuff, Kelvin is the proper measure of temperature that I prefer.
19:21:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you call those "not really a ruler" things that were used before calculators were invented?
19:21:18 <Vorpal> I have one of those somewhere I think
19:21:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Slide rules, you mean?
19:21:20 <alise> Vorpal: WJW, Emacs stores font HEIGHT in 1/10 pts.
19:21:28 <Vorpal> alise, strange unit?
19:21:36 <zzo38> For measuring typefaces I can use points instead of inches or metres
19:21:38 <Vorpal> alise, also "WJW"?
19:21:41 <cpressey> It's too bad English doesn't have a single term to mean "the current state of a parsing process".
19:21:43 <alise> Vorpal: WJW = Wow Just Wow
19:21:51 <cpressey> "parse_state" is so... unappealing.
19:21:55 <Sgeo> alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-712-j
19:22:01 <Vorpal> alise, ah, hm... points here is not pixels is it?
19:22:01 <alise> cpressey: just use "state"
19:22:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: And according to a tape measure, that monitor is something like 518x322 mm, so it wasn't so far off.
19:22:05 <alise> Vorpal: of course not
19:22:08 <Vorpal> alise, right
19:22:12 <cpressey> alise: If this language had namespaces, SURE!
19:22:16 <oklofok> come up with your own word
19:22:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, slide ruler it seems like yeah
19:22:24 <cpressey> Pstate. Like Psmith.
19:22:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think mine is broken perhaps. And I have no idea how it is used
19:22:39 <alise> 105 1/10 pts seems to give me what I want, proper 10pt.
19:22:41 <Vorpal> not sure where I got it from even
19:22:50 <oklofok> cpressey: i made a conlang once with namespaces
19:23:47 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:24:18 <fizzie> alise: The HTK toolkit measures times in units of 1/10 microseconds, or 100 nanoseconds; that's a bit strange unit too. (I *think* they've chosen that because then a single sample at 16 kHz is exactly 625 "units", an integral number... but who knows.)
19:27:00 <fizzie> (The sampling rate option, also, is not the frequency, but the period: the very obvious "SOURCERATE = 625" means a 16 kHz sampling rate.)
19:28:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, it would be an integer if you used nanosenconds too
19:30:05 <fizzie> Yes, but then you'd end up with larger numbers.
19:30:15 <Vorpal> and that way 32 KHz would be an integer too I think. Unlike currently.
19:30:53 <fizzie> Yes, but people don't much do >16 kHz for speech processing.
19:31:21 <alise> Wow, making an Emacs colour scheme is a bitch.
19:32:54 <fizzie> I'm not sure what sort of integers (or floats) they use for the times, though. If it's 0.1 µs, and 32-bit signed integers, that would mean the largest possible time would be...
19:32:57 <fizzie> !perl print 2**31/1000/1000/10
19:32:58 <EgoBot> 214.7483648
19:33:03 <fizzie> That's not very many seconds.
19:34:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, with 2^64 it is quite a enough though
19:34:49 <Vorpal> and why signed for time?
19:35:08 <Vorpal> "time since start of whatever you want to measure" seems like it should be unsigned
19:35:10 <fizzie> People tend to use signed integers everywhere, no matter if it makes sense or not.
19:35:22 <Vorpal> they do?
19:35:25 <fizzie> They do.
19:35:36 <zzo38> Vorpal: For 64-bit UNIX timestamps, I think it should be signed. For 32-bit UNIX timestamps it should be unsigned.
19:36:13 <cpressey> I love English. I love how an endeavour, like making an Emacs colour scheme, can "be a bitch", but if you said "The act of making an Emacs colour scheme is bitchy", or "My Emacs colour scheme is bitchen'", you mean completely different things.
19:36:18 <fizzie> These times are from start of an audio sample, though, where negative values are a lot less meaningful.
19:36:23 <cpressey> The second one has very shaky semantics.
19:36:44 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes in that case, negative values are not generally useful.
19:37:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, mhm was not about such timestamps though
19:38:12 <Vorpal> hm does using one-complement for negative numbers require separate signed/unsigned addition/subtraction?
19:38:50 <zzo38> I think so
19:41:25 <cpressey> struct cell *c = malloc(sizeof(struct cell));
19:41:36 <cpressey> C has such a nice liturgical rhythm to it.
19:41:47 <fizzie> cpressey: According to comp.lang.c, the preferred way to write that is: struct cell *c = malloc(sizeof *c);
19:41:55 <zzo38> Liturgical rhythm?
19:41:55 * cpressey failed the exam
19:42:07 <cpressey> zzo38: like a chant.
19:42:10 <fizzie> cpressey: Since then you need to just update one place when you change the type. Both *work*, of course.
19:42:24 <zzo38> You can also write a macro, of course.
19:42:32 <Vorpal> <fizzie> cpressey: According to comp.lang.c, the preferred way to write that is: struct cell *c = malloc(sizeof *c); <-- why?
19:42:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> cpressey: Since then you need to just update one place when you change the type. Both *work*, of course.
19:42:47 <Vorpal> ah wait, fizzie said that same second as I asked
19:43:09 <cpressey> < fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> cpressey:
19:43:19 <cpressey> (just wanted the palindome there)
19:43:22 <fizzie> <cpressey> < fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> cpressey: <-- that looks funny.
19:43:46 <Vorpal> <fizzie> <cpressey> < fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> cpressey: <-- so does that. Also wtf at current lag to server...
19:44:28 * Sgeo blinks a few times
19:44:31 <Sgeo> There was a new UF
19:44:45 <Sgeo> On a day that previous UF comics were about the day. This one wasn't
19:44:46 <zzo38> @d NEW(_1,_2) _1@[*_2@]=malloc(sizeof(_1))
19:45:02 <zzo38> That is one way to write a macro for doing like that, if you want to.
19:45:05 <alise> Sgeo: what?
19:45:20 <Sgeo> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100911&mode=classic
19:45:31 <alise> zzo38: so how would you write isspace, given a macro _isspace that does what isspace(x) normally does (without type checking), such that it fails at compile time if the argument is not a char?
19:45:55 <zzo38> alise: Probably use some GNU extension command
19:46:04 <alise> Sgeo: I still don't understand.
19:46:08 <alise> zzo38: I mean, standard C.
19:46:10 <zzo38> There is one to check for compatible types
19:46:17 <cpressey> Um. Writing a re-entrant parser in C is just like using continuations, isn't it? I'm going to have to write a trampoline, aren't I? Half the people here are going "ofc" and the other half are going "wat", aren't they?
19:46:32 * Sgeo may have been mistaken
19:46:46 <alise> cpressey: Uhh, you could just pass parser state around.
19:46:48 <zzo38> alise: I don't know if there is a way. Although it can probably be made to make a warning
19:46:52 <alise> cpressey: And use a recursive-descent model.
19:47:18 <alise> zzo38: Well, hm... do you know what I have to do to T to make foo[T] an error?
19:47:22 <alise> foo[pointer] works, so...
19:47:28 <alise> foo[(something) x], maybe?
19:47:37 <cpressey> alise: re-entrant means I can't recurse (in the sense of one C function calling another).
19:47:48 <alise> cpressey: Why not?
19:48:04 <cpressey> alise: well, not unless I wanted to mess with C's stack. I don't...
19:48:06 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reentrant_%28subroutine%29
19:48:10 <alise> Nothing here suggests that.
19:48:14 <alise> Are we using different definitions?
19:48:17 <cpressey> We might be
19:48:29 <alise> Define it, then.
19:48:50 <cpressey> I mean, I want to say parse("(a (b c (d)") and say parse(" e f) g)") later.
19:49:03 <cpressey> with control returning to me in between
19:49:04 <zzo38> I don't think it is ever an error in C to add wrong types, but it is always a warning.
19:49:05 <alise> That's not what re-entrant means.
19:49:10 <alise> cpressey: setjmp/longjmp
19:49:13 <Sgeo> Ok, I'm hating the new UF
19:49:20 <Sgeo> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100901&mode=classic
19:49:23 <cpressey> alise: That's messing with C's stack.
19:49:25 <Sgeo> I don't even find this one funny
19:49:27 <alise> cpressey: it's done for you
19:49:33 <Sgeo> Just.. almost, due to the self reference
19:49:43 <alise> "setjmp() unless the setjmp pointer is null" at the start of parse
19:49:48 <alise> then null it out before longjmp()ing in parse
19:49:51 <alise> when you reach the end of the string
19:49:53 <alise> store the parsed-so-far location in a global variable
19:49:55 <alise> and voila
19:50:03 <alise> cpressey: it's munging the stack just as much as call-withc
19:50:04 <cpressey> never mind
19:50:07 <alise> *call-with-current-continuation is.
19:50:26 <alise> Sgeo: * Sgeo blinks a few times
19:50:26 <alise> <Sgeo> There was a new UF
19:50:26 <alise> <Sgeo> On a day that previous UF comics were about the day. This one wasn't
19:50:30 <alise> Sgeo: this is utterly incomprehensible
19:50:34 <zzo38> The only real problem I have with Enhanced CWEB so far, is lack of support for variadic macros (even if the C compiler supports it).
19:51:00 <fizzie> You can do that -- parse("(a"), return of control, parse(" b)") -- just by writing parse() so that it manually keeps enough state somewhere between calls. (Then it won't be the-usual-definition-of-reentrant, though.)
19:51:05 <Sgeo> alise, for some reason, I was under the impression that every 9/11, Illiad put up a comic relating to it. I was mistaken
19:51:27 -!- Flonk has joined.
19:51:48 <Sgeo> Illiad has lost his nut: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100831
19:51:55 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can stick anything in front of "Studies" and get a degree in it.
19:51:57 <alise> User Friendly is such a terrible comic.
19:52:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Faeces Studies
19:52:11 <zzo38> Do you have a degree of "Studies Studies"?
19:52:15 <Sgeo> alise, only after this resumption
19:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I shall!
19:52:39 <fizzie> Sgeo: You do know those have been submitted by readers, right? (Just checking.)
19:52:45 <alise> Sgeo: it appears that these are guest strips.
19:52:47 <lament> fix studies
19:52:50 <alise> Sgeo: i found this out by reading the comments.
19:52:51 * Phantom_Hoover wants to make a university reference but is too woefully naïve to do so.
19:52:59 <Sgeo> fizzie, now I do..
19:53:09 <fizzie> "The last few weeks of cartoons, and the next week or two coming, are submissions in the UF by UFies contest. There are some talented and, um, unusual minds out there." -- it says so right on the front page.
19:53:58 * Sgeo failed to notice :/
19:54:38 * Sgeo now finds that he relates to http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100901&mode=classic
19:55:17 <alise> if UF was like http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/10aug/uf014231.gif every day, I'd read it
19:56:29 * cpressey just broke his "don't read UF links either" rule
19:56:32 <cpressey> and for what?
19:56:47 * cpressey scratches it out even harder
19:57:22 <Vorpal> I stopped reading uf ages ago.
19:57:23 <alise> cpressey: psht, http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/10aug/uf014231.gif is great
19:57:28 <alise> primarily because it's nothing like UF is or has ever been
19:57:34 <cpressey> alise: only by contrast
19:57:38 <cpressey> alise: yes
19:57:48 <alise> i dunno i'd read a strip of those
19:57:56 <alise> cpressey: do you like Dinosaur Comics?
19:58:09 <cpressey> alise: ... is that a generic term? probably not.
19:58:13 * Sgeo likes UF!
19:58:27 <Sgeo> alise, qwantz
19:58:29 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:58:39 <alise> cpressey: http://qwantz.com/
19:58:42 <Sgeo> erm, cpressey
19:58:45 <alise> Only the greatest comic in the world.
19:59:00 <cpressey> Oh come now. Nothing can exceed Pokey the Penguin.
19:59:12 <alise> Sure, it may use the exact same panels each time, but nowhere else are there intellectual dinosaurs using uppercase a lot and being hilarious.
19:59:18 <cpressey> tl'dr
19:59:19 <alise> cpressey: I think Dinosaur Comics may actually predate it...
19:59:26 <alise> February 2003
19:59:32 <alise> Hmm
19:59:34 <alise> Pokey is 1998
19:59:36 <alise> Well, whatever
20:00:03 <alise> cpressey: I'm actually surprised you've never heard of it; it is most excellent.
20:00:11 <cpressey> alise: ROCK. UNDER ME LIVE.
20:00:21 <cpressey> ALSO, largely PREFER IT THAT WAY.
20:00:27 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:00:33 <alise> cpressey: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1794
20:00:36 <alise> If you do not laugh, you have no soul.
20:01:50 <cpressey> I... guess I have no soul.
20:02:17 <Sgeo> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100811
20:02:43 <cpressey> Or, perhaps #esoteric, which is by and large the funniest thing in the universe, has spoiled me.
20:03:39 -!- augur has joined.
20:05:09 <alise> cpressey: Read the Dinosaur Comics archive backwards. I guarantee you will hit something hilarious in ten clicks or less.
20:05:30 <alise> brb
20:11:02 <olsner> I usually don't get the dinosaur comics
20:13:29 <cpressey> In C, return should be like ++
20:14:13 <cpressey> printf("Count is now %d", return(count) = foo + bar);
20:15:43 <cpressey> now why does gcc not understand that strdup was *not* implicitly declared, because I #include<string.h>'d?
20:16:20 <Sgeo> alise, when did I introduce you to the whole "idiot requesting efnet#secondlife issue?
20:16:21 <Sgeo> "
20:16:32 <Sgeo> You said it was a troll, and ignoring it would make it go away
20:16:52 <Sgeo> Guess what was asked in there about 9min ago
20:16:59 <Sgeo> Not that anyone's responding
20:17:03 <Sgeo> Or even active enough to care
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20:17:22 <zzo38> cpressey: I don't know. I have not had that problem
20:18:10 <cpressey> usually, neither do I. something of a mystery
20:18:15 <fizzie> cpressey: strdup is not standard, so you don't get it in a standard-conforming mode.
20:18:26 <olsner> cpressey: could be related to the feature test macros mentioned in the manpage
20:19:07 <cpressey> fizzie: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/strdup.html ?
20:19:18 <fizzie> cpressey: Standard C, I mean.
20:19:47 <fizzie> cpressey: Something like -std=c99 or -ansi will make it not pull in strdup by default in <string.h>. But usually you get it by default.
20:19:54 <fizzie> Of course it's in *some* standards.
20:19:56 <cpressey> fizzie: ok. i am doing the mode conform thing
20:21:26 <cpressey> malloc-then-strcpy shall suffice
20:22:01 <fizzie> If you compute the length for malloc, you could memcpy too.
20:22:01 <zzo38> Maybe I should add into Enhanced CWEB, the feature for telling it to add something after the next semicolon, and a code to tell it to add something at the beginning of the current { } block
20:22:12 <olsner> don't forget to null-check after malloc
20:22:23 -!- yiyus has joined.
20:24:30 <cpressey> my data structure for s-expressions is a bit wack anyway. i'm not going for 'clean' this weekend.
20:24:48 <fizzie> You're not going to clean yourself at all this weekend? How... dirty!
20:25:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, how can something that simple be a bit wack?
20:25:14 <oerjan> 10:45:16 <afaulds> wait isn't it swiss?
20:25:14 <oerjan> 10:45:24 <afaulds> they use euros
20:25:22 <oerjan> iirc switzerland doesn't use euros
20:25:54 <oerjan> they're not in the eu. not that that has stopped a number of other countries.
20:26:03 <cpressey> Vorpal: since you want to know -- only cons-cells have self-describing types. atoms don't. this is a bit wack.
20:26:11 <cpressey> i need to fix it, clearly
20:26:24 <oerjan> afaulds: ^
20:26:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, heh
20:29:26 <oklofok> "<olsner> I usually don't get the dinosaur comics" <<< yay me neither
20:30:28 <Vorpal> <olsner> don't forget to null-check after malloc <-- and remember to check that fclose() didn't fail
20:30:42 <cpressey> and remember to not code in C, basically
20:30:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, unless you are writing a kernel.
20:32:18 <olsner> eugh, close-calls that can fail... I've never understood what the hell I'm supposed to do with an error like that
20:32:49 <zzo38> cpressey: Why not code in C?
20:32:55 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:33:00 <cpressey> zzo38: It was sort of a joke.
20:33:05 <Vorpal> xz: Adjusted LZMA2 dictionary size from 64 MiB to 56 MiB to not exceed the memory usage limit of 602 MiB
20:33:06 <Vorpal> huh?
20:33:11 <zzo38> Code in Enhanced CWEB instead.
20:33:36 -!- contingo has joined.
20:33:51 <cpressey> zzo38: don't tempt me! :) Actually, I might translate some of my C code to Enhanced CWEB, some time...
20:34:09 -!- wareya has joined.
20:34:14 <Vorpal> olsner, fclose() can fail due to 1) bad file descriptor 2) stuff in stdio buffer (if file is buffered) left to write, and that write failing
20:34:22 <Vorpal> oh and if the underlying close() fails
20:34:53 <Vorpal> which can fail with EBADF (bad file descriptor), EINTR (interrupted by signal) and EIO (I/O error)
20:35:03 <Vorpal> I/O error... how specific
20:35:15 <oerjan> 11:22:24 <cpressey> Pstate. Like Psmith.
20:35:21 <zzo38> cpressey: Which programs? And if you need help you can ask me some things about Enhanced CWEB
20:35:21 <oerjan> another buck godot fan?
20:36:06 <cpressey> zzo38: I was thinking stringie (my underload interpreter) would be a good candidate. I'll make sure to ask you :)
20:36:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, incidentally, do you read Schlock Mercenary
20:36:51 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
20:37:12 <oerjan> nope
20:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I vaguely want to, but I have concluded that with Archive Binge maxed out at the highest rate possible it will still take most of a year to read.
20:38:09 <oerjan> cpressey: or is that from wodehouse? (who i haven't read but google says so)
20:38:27 <cpressey> oerjan: Oh. That's Wodehouse, yes.
20:38:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I read the archives in about a week. Not in one go, but split out over 4 weeks or so iirc
20:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, when?
20:39:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. how many comics did you get through.
20:40:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm about half a year ago I think
20:40:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, quite a lot still
20:40:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it isn't much worse than IWC in comic count iirc
20:40:48 <Vorpal> maybe even less than iwc
20:41:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It took me ages to read through IWC!
20:41:12 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I don't recall how long it took me to go through the archives, but not too many weeks. This was.. around 2005-2006, I think, though.
20:43:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, IWC took a few weeks too
20:43:18 <Vorpal> not much
20:46:47 <cpressey> fixing the wack now. if you car a non-list you die. yeah, that seems fair
20:46:59 * Sgeo groumbles about Perl
20:48:49 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, what wack?
20:49:38 <cpressey> < cpressey> Vorpal: since you want to know -- only cons-cells have self-describing types. atoms don't. this is a bit wack.
20:49:42 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: ^
20:58:09 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm why should putting a non-list in cdr be invalid?
20:58:32 <Vorpal> well, a non-cons-cell rather
20:58:34 <cpressey> Vorpal: a) it shouldn't b) ask Haskell
20:58:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, so what did you mean with <cpressey> fixing the wack now. if you car a non-list you die. yeah, that seems fair
20:58:57 <cpressey> Vorpal: car(123)
20:59:01 <cpressey> car('foo)
20:59:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, ah
20:59:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, sounds like it should be compile time error (if it is compiled)
20:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell :t (:)
20:59:42 <Vorpal> well not for scheme, since you could redefine car there
20:59:50 <EgoBot> (:) :: a -> [a] -> [a]
21:00:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume you're riffing on that somehow.
21:00:40 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how much space using squashfs for various things will save
21:00:55 <oerjan> iirc scheme _requires_ non-list cdrs for its vararg syntax
21:01:20 <oerjan> (define (func first-arg . rest) ...)
21:01:22 <Vorpal> eh? doesn't it pass the varargs as a list parameter?
21:01:33 <Vorpal> oh you mean the syntax?
21:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It can, or it can do it that way.
21:01:36 <oerjan> Vorpal: yeah
21:01:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, was that "yeah" to "syntax"?
21:01:53 <oerjan> yeah
21:01:58 <oerjan> (yeah)
21:02:10 <Vorpal> hm
21:02:48 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I was riffing on that Haskell doesn't do improper lists
21:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is the only sensible way to do things.
21:03:49 <oerjan> of course in haskell (,) is essentially a cons without type restrictions
21:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, but it's too restricted for lists.
21:04:16 <oerjan> with the disadvantage you cannot have a recursive type for it
21:06:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: nuts to "sensible"
21:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, by "sensible" I mean "permissible under the type system without algebraic data type kludges."
21:07:08 <Vorpal> excellent. Using squashfs cut space wasted on icc by half
21:08:25 <Vorpal> wait, less than half. Misread 1.2 GB as 2.1 GB somehow
21:08:28 <Vorpal> so about 1/4
21:09:10 <oklofok> Vorpal: maybe your brain is upside down
21:09:17 <Vorpal> oklofok, hah
21:13:45 <oerjan> Vorpal descends from the lost umop ap!sdn tribe
21:15:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, perhaps. My ancestry is clouded in mystery.
21:15:38 <oklofok> why "Vorpal"?
21:16:50 <Vorpal> oklofok, I had that for quite some time now?
21:17:02 <Vorpal> oklofok, and because I wanted to change. And why not this one
21:17:18 <Vorpal> oklofok, I assume you get the dual (or maybe triple) reference?
21:17:28 <oerjan> oklofok: so he can go snicker-snack, of course
21:18:32 * cpressey snickers, then snacks
21:19:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:20:46 <oklofok> Vorpal: if i got the reference, i would've been satisfied
21:21:31 <Vorpal> oklofok, um. the one oerjan mentioned of course
21:21:35 <Vorpal> oklofok, and then nethack too
21:21:41 <Vorpal> which references the first thing
21:21:50 <Vorpal> that which oerjan referred to
21:21:54 <oklofok> oh okay, thanks
21:22:00 <oklofok> oerjan: help?
21:22:03 <Vorpal> oklofok, plus I think D&D references the whole thing too
21:22:05 <oklofok> wait
21:22:13 <oklofok> "<oerjan> oklofok: so he can go snicker-snack, of course" <<< this?
21:22:20 <Vorpal> oklofok, yes.
21:22:24 <oklofok> cpressey: any help>?
21:22:26 <oklofok> *?
21:22:33 <Vorpal> oklofok, you know what oerjan is talking about surely?
21:22:44 <Vorpal> oklofok, don't you know the source of "To be or not to be"?
21:22:48 <Vorpal> that is about as famous
21:22:54 <Vorpal> well, almost
21:22:58 <cpressey> No, it is far more famous.
21:23:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm perhaps
21:23:16 <cpressey> Same part of the world, though.
21:23:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, you mean written rather than taking place I presume?
21:23:44 * cpressey thinks Vorpal is trying to lead oklofok down a rabbit-hole
21:23:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh certainly
21:23:57 <Vorpal> :D
21:24:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, though actually I think you are confusing the two most famous works of that author here.
21:24:35 <wareya> Get your jabberwockys out of here
21:24:49 <oklofok> okay so it's some sort of alise-story reference?
21:24:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, you presumably meant through a visual reflection device
21:24:58 <oklofok> i've read the first few pages in lojban
21:25:24 * oerjan concludes that oklofok really has never read it
21:25:42 <Vorpal> how strange
21:25:45 <Vorpal> oklofok, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabberwocky
21:25:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, famous
21:25:52 <Vorpal> err
21:25:54 <Vorpal> oklofok, ^
21:26:04 <oerjan> it was also a monty python movie
21:26:09 <oklofok> i do not read fiction
21:26:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Vonlebio.
21:26:13 <oklofok> i do not watch monty python
21:27:03 <Vorpal> oklofok, also it is is "Alice" not "Alise"
21:27:09 <Vorpal> in this context
21:27:10 <oerjan> i'll just send this new evidence to the Society for Proving Oklo* is not Human
21:27:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, :D
21:27:57 <oklofok> they should know this by now
21:27:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, though that looked grammatically awkward
21:28:37 <oerjan> my grammar _perfectly_ acceptably always!
21:28:39 <oklofok> is to be or not to be from hamlet?
21:28:42 <Vorpal> oh wait, it wasn't "i'll just send this new evidence to the (Society for Proving Oklo*) is not Human". I read it as "Provoking Oklo*" first time
21:28:48 <Vorpal> that explains my confusion
21:29:07 <Vorpal> oklofok, indeed
21:29:30 <cpressey> oklofok: yes
21:29:37 <Vorpal> oklofok, anyway you could just have googled this nick
21:29:45 <oklofok> i have not read that either
21:29:59 <oklofok> i've read part of othello, but it was really stupid so i stopped
21:30:05 <oerjan> in fact the current leading theory is that he's a mutated lifeform from a natural nuclear reactor in africa
21:30:21 <alise> back
21:30:23 <Vorpal> I have read Hamlet. Non-modernised version.
21:30:23 <oklofok> the last thing i read was idiot last year
21:30:32 <oklofok> before that, probably something like harry potter :D
21:30:51 <oklofok> before it was cool
21:31:09 <Vorpal> and yes Hamlet is really bad IMO. Sure some famous quotes. But how irrational they act. It's like the let their feelings override their rationality!
21:31:14 <Vorpal> which always irritates me
21:31:36 <Vorpal> in any work of fiction, as well as in real life
21:31:43 <oerjan> oklofok got imported to finland together with a large uranium shipment
21:32:12 <Vorpal> hah
21:32:18 <oklofok> yay that reference i do get.
21:32:42 <Vorpal> oklofok, what reference?
21:32:43 <oerjan> oklofok: BECAUSE IT'S TRUE
21:32:49 <alise> Vorpal: err, Hamlet is excellent
21:33:29 <Vorpal> alise, oh certainly excellently written and so on. It is just that the stupidity of the characters actions annoys me.
21:33:52 <Vorpal> alise, with some rational thinking it could have been solved without everyone dying IMO
21:34:00 <Vorpal> just a few dying that is
21:34:05 <alise> Yes, nobody has ever written fiction about the effects of emotions on people.
21:34:11 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, people don't think rationally. Get over it.
21:34:26 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, that annoys me. That is what I'm trying to say!
21:34:51 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, I know it annoys you, and it really shouldn't.
21:35:42 <alise> We should act more rationally, but that doesn't mean fiction about it should anger you
21:35:52 <alise> If anything, it should make you happy, demonstrating what over-emotionality does.
21:35:54 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, the world would be a better place if people thought before following their emotions. I'm not saying emotions are bad. Just that they should be moderated by rational thought
21:36:13 <Vorpal> alise, hm good point
21:36:18 <alise> Vorpal thinks he's a Vulcan.
21:36:24 <Vorpal> alise, no I don't
21:36:28 <wareya> Yeah, it's impossible for people to write about emotions. There's no way that someone could possibly describe how feelings affect thought, at all! It's physically impossible!
21:36:34 <alise> Yes, yes you do. Or rather you wish you were.
21:36:37 <Vorpal> alise, it doesn't seem to have helped much sadly
21:36:42 <wareya> (sarcasm)
21:36:53 <oklofok> Vorpal is right, you others are stupid
21:36:56 <oerjan> Vorpal: if people didn't behave idiotic, there wouldn't be half as many tragedies. or comedies, i guess.
21:37:00 <Vonlebio> Well, wishing you were a Vulcan isn't as bad as being under the delusion that you are one.
21:37:00 <alise> The Tennant/Stewart production of Hamlet was <3.
21:37:03 * oklofok has constructive opinions
21:37:10 <alise> (The BBC-broadcast version, at least; I didn't see it.)
21:37:24 <wareya> Before someone can think before they feel they have to understand what the feelings are coming from and what they actually mean.
21:37:32 <cpressey> all fiction should be recordings of the linear motions of platonic solids
21:37:33 <alise> Vonlebio: Vulcans cleverly hide how stupidly irrational they are behind a monotone voice and an adamant insistence that they are unemotional.
21:38:00 <Vonlebio> alise, indeed; I have come to this conclusion myself
21:38:06 <wareya> Otherwise, false assumptions would be made and people would constantly fall into deep depressions.
21:38:16 <alise> Vonlebio: So has everyone :P
21:38:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, true. Not sure that is a bad thing. I never liked comedy based on people acting stupidly. There are other forms of comedy after all, which are better IMO
21:38:38 <oklofok> "<alise> Vonlebio: So has everyone :P" <<< i haven't, i haven't watched star trek!
21:38:41 <alise> i think Vorpal may be a contender for "most boring person in the universe"
21:38:46 <oklofok> or whereever they're from
21:38:49 <alise> oklofok: then you don't count as a person!
21:39:03 <oklofok> :D
21:39:29 <wareya> Why is it bad that fiction has emotions in it?
21:39:32 <oklofok> just clarifying this
21:39:39 <Vorpal> oklofok, hm indeed
21:39:46 <alise> Star Trek is fun, despite being rather rubbish
21:39:53 <cpressey> wareya: takes time away from blowing things up
21:39:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: hm actually i agree on that comedy part, i myself have to leave the room when such shows are on.
21:39:57 <oklofok> wareya: it's annoying to watch people being stupid.
21:40:02 <Vorpal> alise, agreed. Very varying quality though
21:40:09 <Vorpal> some are so bad it's bad
21:40:11 <oklofok> it's more fun to watch them being really smart and unemotional
21:40:18 <Vorpal> some episodes that is
21:40:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, same
21:40:34 <alise> I love Voyager because I'm perfectly tuned to laugh at every second of it.
21:40:41 <wareya> Part of the art of authorship is balancing the emotion between being stale and perfect versus being so horribly irrational and pointless that it's stupid.
21:40:45 <alise> It's wonderful.
21:40:46 <oklofok> it's fun to watch people be *insane*, but that's different
21:40:55 <alise> oklofok: err, you do realise that half of Hamlet is people being insane?
21:41:03 <oerjan> Vorpal: there was a mezzacotta blog post about this, i recall
21:41:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, link?
21:41:11 <alise> Hamlet behaves insanely for... the entire play (despite being the only sane one...)
21:41:23 <oklofok> i'm not sure it's the kind of insane i'm looking for.
21:41:27 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. And that is what annoys me.
21:41:38 <alise> you're really stupid :)
21:41:38 <cpressey> On an unrelated note, I did like MacBeth better.
21:41:48 <alise> *Macbeth
21:42:15 <Vorpal> alise, Romeo & Juliet also have the stupidity bit. Possibly even more so than Hamlet. Though it's a close thing which is worst.
21:42:28 <alise> Romeo and Juliet is /about/ how stupid they are.
21:42:33 <wareya> Yes.
21:42:36 <Vorpal> alise, yes quite.
21:42:38 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, completely missing the point.
21:42:48 <alise> It's a tragedy where their flaw is /being fucking morons/.
21:43:19 <Vonlebio> I stopped watching it after Mercutio died.
21:43:30 <alise> Why?
21:43:47 <alise> It's not his best play. By far. But he definitely doesn't like any of the characters.
21:43:59 <Vonlebio> Because he's about the only major character who isn't a raving idiot!
21:44:14 <alise> Which is the point!
21:44:22 <Vonlebio> And he's entertaining!
21:44:40 <alise> Vonlebio: The Friar is pretty sane.
21:44:49 <Vonlebio> alise, no he isn't!
21:44:57 <alise> He's the one that tells Romeo "stop fucking whining, you just avoided the death penalty".
21:45:19 <Vonlebio> He spends most of the play thinking up wacky and implausible schemes to get Romeo and Juliet together!
21:45:20 <Vorpal> and as cpressey said. Macbeth is a bit better. Since there it is the bad guy who gets into problems really.
21:45:38 <alise> Oh yeah, because all plays must follow my rigidly desired Good Outcome.
21:45:40 <cpressey> I mainly liked the part about the forest
21:45:42 <alise> Vonlebio: He marries them because he thinks it will bring peace.
21:45:50 <Vorpal> alise, didn't say that.
21:45:56 <cpressey> I liked Romeo and Juliet, too, though.
21:46:02 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://www.mezzacotta.net/?p=211 although it actually was just a small part of it
21:46:03 <Vonlebio> alise, indeed, but then he starts acting like me with the Pope's hat!
21:46:06 <cpressey> It's his comedies I can't really bear.
21:46:22 <Vorpal> not sure if I watched any of his comedies
21:46:31 <Vonlebio> They all suck.
21:46:49 <alise> "Romeo + Juliet", btw, is the most abhorrent thing ever committed to film.
21:47:12 <cpressey> alise: The modernised version?
21:47:24 * Vonlebio wanted to see the Zefirelli version but his effing English teacher insisted on showing Luhrmann's one.
21:47:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, which bit?
21:47:33 <alise> The stupid "it's about TRUE LOVE" misunderstanding of the plot + LET'S BE MODERN, LET'S HAVE GUNS AND CARS DESPITE USING THE ORIGINAL DIALOGUE + just... terribleness + Leonardo DiCaprio, WHY?
21:47:35 <alise> + ...
21:47:36 <oklofok> (there are films based on shakespeare's work?)
21:47:42 <cpressey> oh yes, that one. oh yes.
21:47:46 <alise> Yeah, "Romeo + Juliet" is Luhrmann's.
21:47:50 <oerjan> Vorpal: second paragraph, last sentence
21:48:05 <alise> oklofok: fifty bajillion :P
21:48:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah right
21:48:36 <oerjan> well and a bit further
21:48:37 <alise> I wonder if the BBC-aired production of RSC/Tennant/Stewart's Hamlet counts as a film.
21:48:42 <Vonlebio> No.
21:48:46 <alise> Yes, it does.
21:48:53 <Vonlebio> Well, I haven't seen it.
21:48:55 <alise> It's three and a half fucking hours long.
21:48:59 <alise> (No intermission!)
21:49:02 <Vonlebio> That doesn't make it a film.
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21:49:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, newly produced TV today is mostly shit :/
21:49:08 <alise> Vonlebio: It also has sets.
21:49:12 <alise> (It's not just a recording of a performance.)
21:49:18 <Vonlebio> Ah, then it's a film.
21:49:30 <alise> And, uh, one gun. But just one!
21:49:42 <alise> (And the play makes no reference to a gun in dialogue there, so it isn't horribly awkward.)
21:50:00 <Vorpal> alise, 3.5 hours? That's nothing. *looks for imdb entry*
21:50:13 <Vorpal> hm imdb doesn't have length?
21:50:17 <cpressey> yes once Vorpal sat through the entire Ring cycle with no interrupts
21:50:17 <alise> It does.
21:50:20 <alise> I think.
21:50:21 <cpressey> *tions.
21:50:28 <alise> Cleopatra is like 45739545 hours in the uncut version
21:50:36 <Vorpal> alise, can't find it for the one I'm looking for
21:50:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, Wagner?
21:51:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, who did? You claim me did?
21:51:06 <Vorpal> I *HATE* Wagner
21:51:14 <Vorpal> s/me/I/
21:51:24 <Vorpal> alise, that would be quite... impressive
21:51:30 <cpressey> Vorpal: 3.5 hours is nothing
21:51:40 <oklofok> "<Vorpal> oerjan, newly produced TV today is mostly shit :/" <<< newly produced fiction is good usually, that i watch regularly
21:51:53 <cpressey> alise: UNDERWATER
21:52:02 <oklofok> well american series
21:52:23 <alise> (no timespan)
21:52:27 <Vorpal> wait, it is only 3.4 hours?
21:52:28 <Vorpal> huh
21:52:34 <Vorpal> I thought it was more
21:54:02 <Vorpal> wareya, amber?
21:54:05 <wareya> yeah
21:54:09 <oklofok> one season of a tv series is usually at least 15 hours, that's not exactly hard to do in one go
21:54:22 <Vorpal> wareya, not as in the material I presume?
21:54:29 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Amber
21:54:29 <wareya> not the material
21:54:32 <alise> Gee, I can Google.
21:54:34 <alise> I must be amazing.
21:55:04 <Vorpal> alise, impressive. I'll hire you to do it for me. The pay is 1£ / 1000000 years. Paid at end of period.
21:55:09 <oklofok> but i guess it's just because american tv series are a fuckload better than hamlet movies
21:55:18 <wareya> It's funny because it's true
21:55:24 <alise> Vorpal: That was so witty I can barely contain myself.
21:55:29 <ais523> Vorpal: that's less than the minimum wage in the UK
21:55:38 <Vorpal> ais523, obviously
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21:56:11 <alise> ooh
21:56:14 <alise> Vorpal: I accept.
21:56:15 <oerjan> ais523: especially if you consider inflation
21:56:19 <alise> Vorpal: I'm taking you to court.
21:56:23 <Vorpal> wareya, "The main series consists of two story arcs, each five novels in length. Additionally, there are a number of Amber short stories and other works." <-- doesn't seem too bad. Unless those novels are excessively thick?
21:56:28 <alise> I believe I will get a raise.
21:56:34 <Vorpal> like, Tolkin thickness
21:56:37 <wareya> They aren't particularly short.
21:56:47 <wareya> They're longer than the hobbit
21:57:06 <alise> ten novels in one go is impressive...
21:57:14 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, I done that several times.
21:57:16 <Vorpal> re-read books
21:57:17 <Vonlebio> CONSECUTIVELY
21:57:18 <alise> I ONCE READ EVERYTHING
21:57:26 <Vorpal> I mean, 30 books or such
21:57:28 <wareya> I ONE READ
21:57:30 <Vorpal> not too bad
21:57:49 <alise> ONCE I READ A POEM
21:57:53 <alise> a WHOLE POEM
21:57:57 <wareya> Speculative fiction is pretty great, too bad the label got misused and changed
21:58:01 <Vorpal> I one read Crime and Punishment with a 1-page interleaving of War & Peace.
21:58:04 <Vorpal> ;)
21:58:04 <wareya> genre label
21:59:32 <alise> once i read an anus
21:59:39 <wareya> That's cool
22:01:00 <oklofok> anyone here ever read a book in a language they didn't know
22:01:13 <wareya> Do language books count??
22:01:14 <wareya> -?
22:01:15 <alise> yes, I once read a book written in oklofok
22:01:20 <oklofok> (i haven't)
22:01:24 <Vonlebio> I looked at a French dictionary once.
22:01:36 <oklofok> wareya: no, smart ass
22:01:42 <wareya> :3
22:02:19 <oklofok> Vonlebio was just as smart, just slower :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
22:02:24 <oklofok> that's not funny in any way
22:02:33 <oklofok> <- what a fuckface this guy
22:02:46 <cpressey> I once read fizzie's beard -- it was a laser beard
22:03:03 <alise> what a fuckface that guy ->
22:03:49 <wareya> Too bad I don't have a userlist
22:04:59 <Sgeo> Time to do homework, I guess
22:05:04 <Sgeo> 3-5 minute presentation
22:05:10 <Sgeo> That I didn't even touch yet
22:05:13 <Sgeo> And a dash of Perl
22:05:58 <oklofok> alise: who guy??
22:06:00 <oklofok> idgy
22:06:21 <oklofok> ohh use the userlist
22:06:22 <cpressey> oklofok, v
22:06:29 <oklofok> haha everyone fuckface :DDD
22:06:53 <oklofok> *idgi
22:07:03 <oklofok> Sgeo: you mean you have to do a 3-5 minute presentation?
22:07:14 <Sgeo> oklofok, no, write one.
22:07:20 <oklofok> right
22:07:25 <Sgeo> I'm not actually going to be presenting
22:07:28 <Sgeo> It's an online course
22:07:44 <oklofok> well okay then it's some work
22:07:46 <oerjan> so you're not even going to be present
22:07:46 <wareya> I have to do a supposed 18 hours of chemistry work by tomorrow morning
22:07:49 <oklofok> (4 4 4 4 4 4)
22:08:06 <wareya> Or, I can switch out to another class.
22:08:23 <oklofok> i have to do a negative amount of work on every course if i wanna catch up with everyone else :(
22:08:42 * Sgeo jealousies of oklofok
22:08:57 <Sgeo> The Perl stuff should be easy
22:09:26 <Vonlebio> Regarding Shakespeare, this nick is an anagram of Benvolio!
22:09:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: well, there's more than one way to do it
22:09:55 <oklofok> tbh i've mostly just read japanese
22:12:37 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:13:54 <pikhq> oklofok: Even in the Japanese class?
22:14:40 <pikhq> And no, never read a book in a language I don't know. Language I'm not fluent in, sure, but not a language I don't know.
22:15:56 <cpressey> I read Dante's Inferno. I don't know Italian.
22:16:02 -!- relet has joined.
22:16:05 <cpressey> I didn't read it *in* Italian...
22:16:24 <Vorpal> XD
22:17:14 <Vorpal> <cpressey> I once read fizzie's beard -- it was a laser beard <-- wasn't it nooga's beard?
22:17:59 <cpressey> all beards look the same to me
22:18:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, So does that mean all beards look like RMS? And does that mean RMS's beard looks well kept, or all other beards look like a mess?
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22:19:28 <oklofok> "<pikhq> oklofok: Even in the Japanese class?" <<< you mean if i have a negative amount to do in jap?
22:19:50 <Vorpal> oklofok, either that or if you read Japanese in that class
22:19:59 <Vorpal> those are the two plausible interpretations I think
22:20:24 <oklofok> well let's see, we've learned 30 hiragana and some greetings, i know all hiragana, all katakana, some 20 kanji, about 150 words, numbers, months, days of month
22:20:48 <oklofok> 150 was a completely random guess, but from word lists, i think i've learned about that many
22:22:17 <oklofok> (mostly i've been reading grammar, that's why the numbers are ridiculously small)
22:23:08 <madbrain> how messed up is japanese grammar?
22:23:10 * oerjan points at today's http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/
22:23:16 <oklofok> it's pretty beautiful
22:23:19 * Vonlebio → sleep
22:23:24 <oklofok> at least the parts i know
22:23:45 <oklofok> (noun particle)^* verb
22:24:00 <oklofok> (disclaimer: i know a bit more than that :P)
22:24:24 <oerjan> (for you japanese fans)
22:25:50 <oklofok> "gaahiirudo"
22:26:05 <oklofok> i guess the small i signifies the h is an f
22:26:34 <pikhq> oklofok: What? What? No.
22:26:50 <oklofok> erm
22:26:56 <oklofok> whoops
22:27:10 <pikhq> madbrain: Japanese grammar is actually really simple.
22:27:19 <oklofok> the cliff thingie is "fu" in romaji, is it used for f?
22:27:24 <oerjan> h and f are allophones in japanese, or something like that?
22:27:33 <oklofok> i know next to nothing about pronunciation
22:27:37 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:27:50 <pikhq> oerjan: The mora "hu" is pronounced with an "f".
22:28:11 <pikhq> oerjan: A small vowel following a "hu" denotes that that vowel should be used instead.
22:28:13 <oerjan> so you can only have f in front of u in japanese?
22:28:18 <oerjan> oh
22:28:27 <pikhq> oerjan: In native words, yes.
22:28:50 <oklofok> according to our teacher, "hu" is only "fu" because it sounds that way to americans
22:28:54 <oklofok> but should be "h"
22:29:22 <pikhq> oklofok: It's a distinct phoneme from both.
22:29:27 <oklofok> right
22:29:42 <pikhq> It's a bit more of an "f" than an "h", though.
22:29:55 <oklofok> okay
22:29:59 <oklofok> hey, another thing
22:30:02 <oklofok> the "d"'s
22:30:08 <oklofok> are they different before different vowels?
22:30:21 <pikhq> Except for ぢ and づ, no.
22:30:23 <oklofok> they seem to be "th", but some closer to "d" than others
22:30:57 <pikhq> (ぢ and づ are more commonly pronounced as "ji" and "zu")
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22:31:17 <oklofok> yeah i'm talking about da de do
22:31:24 <pikhq> Same phonemes.
22:31:43 <oklofok> okay
22:32:24 <oklofok> in particular, i thought maybe do was a bit closer to "th" than de (on the d to th scale)
22:33:45 <pikhq> Sorry. Japanese lacks dental fricatives.
22:34:05 <oklofok> not the fricative, the sound in "the"
22:34:15 <oklofok> erm
22:34:25 <oklofok> i don't know these terms, let me look them up.
22:34:48 <oklofok> not "think", but "the"
22:34:59 <oerjan> approximant?
22:35:02 <pikhq> Those are both dental fricatives.
22:35:09 <oklofok> okay
22:35:21 <pikhq> Japanese lacks them.
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22:35:26 <oklofok> in do and de, the consonant is definitely closer to "the" than it is to "do"
22:35:39 <pikhq> Where did you hear this?
22:35:43 <oklofok> in japanese specch
22:35:45 <oklofok> *speech
22:35:51 <pikhq> From where?
22:35:52 <oklofok> maybe our teacher has a speech impediment
22:35:53 <oklofok> :D
22:36:07 <pikhq> It's certainly not actual Japanese pronounciation.
22:36:31 <oklofok> wanna link the really boring video again?
22:36:32 <oklofok> :D
22:36:45 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTRLVB8UHt4&feature=fvw Here, just have what I was just looking at instead.
22:36:51 <oklofok> okay
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22:37:44 <pikhq> (1000 and 0, by Sakanaction)(セントレイ、サカナクション)
22:37:49 <oerjan> pikhq: maybe it's a dental/alveolar thing rather than plosive/fricative?
22:37:58 <pikhq> oerjan: Possible.
22:38:53 <oklofok> the d's i heard in that are definitely at least in the middle of english th and d, if not closer to th.
22:39:02 <oklofok> maybe i have a hearing impediment
22:39:16 <oklofok> oh
22:39:18 <cpressey> alise: So what would be more acceptable terminology than "re-entrant parser" for what I mean?
22:39:24 <pikhq> oklofok: Maybe I've just stopped registering the phonemes as odd. :P
22:39:28 <alise> cpressey: Umm... resumable parser?
22:39:30 <alise> Continuable parser?
22:39:31 <cpressey> interruptable?
22:39:33 <alise> Partial parser?
22:39:35 <alise> No, not that.
22:39:41 <alise> You don't interrupt it; it just isn't given enough.
22:39:53 <cpressey> Anyone know if there's a "standard" terminology for this?
22:40:04 <oklofok> pikhq: or what oerjan said
22:40:16 <oklofok> i mean
22:40:55 <oklofok> could be the tongue is in the "d" spot (alveolar?), and you just jap it up (fricative instead of plosive? meh i'm just saying random things because i don't know how they sound)
22:41:38 <oerjan> cpressey: i think i've seen incremental
22:42:04 <oklofok> well anyway, have to go, keep the fun going! ->
22:42:30 <fizzie> The "resumable parser" is also rather understandable one, even if it happens to be non-standardish.
22:42:49 <cpressey> "incremental parser" has about 4000 google hits; "resumable" has about 100
22:43:13 <alise> Discuss.
22:43:16 <alise> cpressey: Incremental parser sounds good.
22:43:33 <alise> cpressey: Is this for Pixley?
22:44:00 <cpressey> incremental it is. thanks oerjan!
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22:44:24 <cpressey> alise: Not per se. S-expressions just seemed like a simple thing to parse in this fashion.
22:44:33 <cpressey> but in practice, could be, could be.
22:44:40 <oerjan> cpressey: it _may_ indicate something stronger though, where you don't just add more text but can even reparse after internal edits (more effeciently than reparsing _everything_)
22:44:43 <fizzie> I do see some 1920x1200 monitors still available, but they're being CONSUMED by the 16:9 ones.
22:44:57 <cpressey> oerjan: like incremental compilation, hm.
22:44:58 <oerjan> *efficiently
22:46:32 <oerjan> cpressey: also i think the newfangled iteratee/enumerator concept for haskell (by oleg) is intended to support this
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22:47:05 <oerjan> mind you i only mention that, my understanding is most haskellers still don't really understand that :D
22:47:34 <cpressey> incremental does seem to more have that meaning of "only reparse what has changed" -- i'm going back to "resumable"
22:48:06 <olsner> what is it your parser does? you can run out of input, stop, and continue parsing after more input?
22:48:20 <cpressey> olsner: yes.
22:48:35 <cpressey> like if someone were sending you sexps on a socket, or something.
22:48:46 <cpressey> and you wanted to parse them as they came in
22:49:02 <cpressey> i know there are xml parsers that do this, so it's not really anything too special
22:49:39 <olsner> if you have continuations, you can just have the ask-for-input function suspend computation until there's more input :)
22:49:46 <olsner> and the parser would just be a plain parser
22:49:48 <oerjan> s/support this/support adding new input incrementally/, it doesn't have anything to do with the internal editing stuff afaik
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22:55:08 <oerjan> cpressey: in fact it seems that the iteratee people use "incremental" in the sense you want, while some other researchers use the stronger edit meaning
22:55:26 <oerjan> is my impression
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22:57:55 <alise> hmm
22:57:56 <alise> XChat
22:58:12 <Vorpal> night
22:58:24 <alise> it's so hard to get XChat to use the same font sizes as everyone else
22:58:49 <Vorpal> alise, oh? 9pt works just fine here
22:59:01 <oerjan> including oleg, http://okmij.org/ftp/Streams.html
22:59:18 <alise> Vorpal: no, it's more dpi fuckery
22:59:22 <Vorpal> alise, ah
22:59:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm?
22:59:26 <alise> #esoteric
22:59:29 <alise> trying to match it up
22:59:34 <alise> hard since XChat seems to do its own text-rendering thing
22:59:43 <alise> there
22:59:46 <alise> that's ... almost it
22:59:48 <alise> 10.45pt
22:59:50 <Vorpal> alise, it uses cairo afaik?
22:59:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm still talking about incremental parsing
22:59:58 <alise> Vorpal: clearly it doesn't use gtk
23:00:04 <alise> /something's/ different
23:00:05 <Vorpal> alise, or maybe pango
23:00:09 <alise> letter spacing and stuff
23:00:12 <Vorpal> alise, cairo or pango or whatever
23:00:13 <alise> Vorpal: er, cairo and pango are usually used together
23:00:20 <Vorpal> alise, okay. I'm no expert
23:00:25 <Vorpal> on that
23:00:58 <Vorpal> alise, but yeah I don't think it uses some gtk widget for the channel display
23:01:06 <alise> well, it does its own selection stuff too
23:01:11 <alise> ...the channel display is pretty shit, really
23:01:17 <Vorpal> alise, rather it creates an empty box and then uses cairo or whatever to draw in it
23:01:22 <alise> yeah
23:01:26 <alise> wish it just used WebKit or something
23:01:30 <alise> like Empathy
23:01:42 <Vorpal> alise, not sure I agree.. Also why mix in HTML where it isn't needed...
23:01:49 <Vorpal> if that is what you mean
23:01:58 <alise> it's just a syntax for rendering shit like that
23:02:04 <alise> also, it allows easy customisation of the display
23:02:06 <alise> with CSS
23:02:16 <fizzie> Cairo's text-rendering is pretty low-level, but I wouldn't put it past XChat to use it directly instead of Pango, which is what GTK's own widgets presumably use.
23:02:17 <Vorpal> alise, what about the separator thingy, that would require javascript then
23:02:22 <alise> Vorpal: err, no
23:02:29 <Vorpal> alise, oh?
23:02:36 <alise> you could probably do it with floats; or even just a table
23:02:42 <Vorpal> alise, it jumps out on long nicks and you can drag it
23:02:42 <alise> a table would definitely work
23:02:47 <alise> jumping out is easy
23:02:50 <Vorpal> also you can set a max width for it
23:02:52 <alise> if you just specify min-width and max-width
23:02:53 <alise> in the css
23:02:56 -!- alise has left (?).
23:02:57 <Vorpal> so it can't jump out past a certain column
23:02:58 -!- alise has joined.
23:03:01 <alise> then it will automatically resize
23:03:02 <Vorpal> and so on
23:03:08 <alise> dragging it would require some js, yes.
23:03:10 <alise> but not much at all
23:03:30 <Vorpal> alise, it would be slower than the current approach. I notice a huge speedup with js turned off in konq on my desktop
23:03:34 <Vorpal> old cpu yes
23:03:45 <Vorpal> but not everyone can afford the newest everywhere
23:03:56 <alise> webkit has a much better js engine.
23:04:05 <Vorpal> oh yes compared to firefox, definitely
23:04:07 <Vorpal> but still
23:04:12 <alise> and compared to konqueror
23:04:17 <Vorpal> hm
23:04:23 <alise> remember, they took konqueror, threw out large parts of KHTML because they were shit, threw out KJS because it's shit
23:04:25 <alise> and rewrote them
23:04:29 <alise> iterate over many years of refinement
23:04:29 <Vorpal> I thought new konq used webkit?
23:04:31 <Vorpal> no?
23:04:32 <alise> tada, WebKit
23:04:33 <alise> Vorpal: not yet
23:04:38 <alise> not in latest KDE 4 release at least
23:04:42 <alise> I think it /can/ if you set it up
23:04:51 <Vorpal> ah
23:05:16 <Vorpal> alise, besides the default text rendering in xchat looks nice IMO.
23:05:39 <Vorpal> alise, also what do you mean own highlighting?
23:05:47 <Vorpal> I just fired up xchat, can't notice that
23:05:48 <Vorpal> I mean
23:05:50 <alise> it's almost like the regular text rendering across the system, except the ways in which it does differ are all mistakes
23:05:54 <Vorpal> I selected text, behaves as normal
23:05:55 <alise> due to less polished code
23:05:59 <alise> Vorpal: no, it doesn't
23:06:01 <alise> it's not a gtk selection
23:06:04 <alise> it has its own colour
23:06:06 <alise> and try right clicking on it
23:06:08 <alise> not the same
23:06:16 <alise> they've coded their own selection logic
23:06:17 <Vorpal> alise, they are same colour here?
23:06:18 <alise> why? who knows!
23:06:21 <alise> Vorpal: coincidence.
23:06:25 <Vorpal> alise, ah
23:06:25 <alise> try changing gtk theme
23:06:38 <Vorpal> alise, and yes it uses a custom right click menu
23:06:38 <fizzie> XChat's text-selection color is configurable in the prefs.
23:06:39 <Vorpal> so what?
23:06:40 <oerjan> cpressey: this stuff is important to haskell because haskell requires you to make parsing incremental if you want to have the parser be pure code but still allow interleaving impure actions with parsing
23:07:05 <cpressey> olsner: Yes. this is C. I don't have continuations. Implementing it looks an awful lot like implementing continuations.
23:07:39 <fizzie> There's that very old mostly-macro-driven "coroutines in C" thing.
23:07:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, setjmp/longjmp?
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23:08:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, if you don't have to deal with other IO than that for which you are waiting, it might be an option
23:08:27 <alise> cpressey: you could always just return a value saying "keep returning"
23:08:30 <Vorpal> to just call "get more data"
23:08:32 <alise> thus manually implementing setjmp/longjmp
23:08:36 <Vorpal> from the parser
23:08:42 <cpressey> oerjan: my head *cannot* handle oleg right now. i think i need to take a walk
23:08:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, what about co-routines
23:08:55 <Vorpal> would that help?
23:08:58 <fizzie> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html if you've never seen it.
23:09:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, beat you to it :P
23:09:20 * Sgeo ponders the Paranoia idea that's been bubbling in my head since 2007 or so
23:09:23 <alise> fizzie: there are more proper coroutine implementations :P
23:09:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: How so? I said "coroutines in C" way up there.
23:09:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? missed that
23:09:53 <Vorpal> <alise> fizzie: there are more proper coroutine implementations :P <-- in C?
23:10:21 <alise> yes.
23:10:25 <alise> i think
23:10:28 <Vorpal> alise, got any example?
23:10:32 <alise> getcontext/setcontext type things
23:10:42 <alise> sec i'll dig one up
23:10:47 <Vorpal> alise, um, POSIX only, deprecated feature
23:10:50 <alise> http://dekorte.com/projects/opensource/libcoroutine/
23:10:55 <Vorpal> those two functions I mean
23:10:58 <alise> "A simple stackfull coroutine implementation, largely based on ucontext and fibers on platforms that support those APIs and with setjmp/longjmp implementations on several others."
23:11:02 <cpressey> Vorpal: no C magic plz.
23:11:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, it isn't. It is just macros!
23:11:21 <Vorpal> it's not magic
23:13:04 <cpressey> i mean, nothing that ties this to C.
23:13:17 <fizzie> cpressey: It's also very tiny, and you can do the same thing sort-of manually if you don't want to call magical macros. Though the switch-casery is more than a bit ugly-looking.
23:13:17 <cpressey> Pascal doesn't have setjmp/longjmp, afaik.
23:13:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, .... what?
23:13:22 <ais523> magic is when you run the code through the preprocessor, then run a textual replacement on the resulting output
23:13:27 <cpressey> Vorpal: never mind
23:13:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, are you going to port it to pascal?
23:13:31 <ais523> which is what C-INTERCAL does to input C files
23:13:35 <olsner> I really like how lazy evaluation makes the decompressor/parser example (from fizzie's link) something that you just write without needing to think about it
23:13:41 <cpressey> Vorpal: You totally do not get why I'm doing this.
23:13:41 <ais523> anyway, time to go home
23:13:47 <fizzie> cpressey: The "coroutines in C" does not involve any setjmp/longjmp or anything.
23:13:47 <Vorpal> cpressey, remember to only use stuff that works in brainfuck too then!
23:13:58 <Vorpal> and lambda calculus
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23:14:12 <Vorpal> and so on
23:14:16 <cpressey> fizzie: What alise quoted suggests that it does on some platforms.
23:14:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, that was a different implementation
23:14:38 <fizzie> cpressey: That was libcoroutine, the "more proper" one.
23:14:40 <alise> indeed
23:14:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, the one fizzie and I talked about just involves switch iirc
23:15:04 <Vorpal> masked with a few easy macros
23:15:22 <cpressey> it's probably 80% similar to what i'm already doing, minus the macros
23:15:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, I doubt it
23:15:43 <cpressey> why do you doubt that?
23:15:53 <fizzie> It's basically a switch() around the whole code, case labels after each "return", and some static state to resume where it left off.
23:16:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, on the same basis that your is 80% similar without reading it. :P
23:16:06 <cpressey> i'm solving what is effectively the same problem
23:16:31 <cpressey> i have a big switch. i have some state that tracks how to resume.
23:16:37 <Vorpal> okay then
23:17:00 <fizzie> It sounds like you no longer actually have a problem, either.
23:17:16 <Vorpal> cpressey, it uses macros that uses __LINE__ to automatically number the case statements iirc
23:17:20 <cpressey> Did I ever have a problem?
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23:19:03 <fizzie> cpressey: Ah, I thought the "it" in your "Implementing it looks an awful lot like implementing continuations" referred to your parser itself, which sounded like something very overcomplicated.
23:19:34 <alise> Terrible knives!
23:19:36 <alise> #esoteric
23:19:38 -!- contingo has joined.
23:19:38 <alise> Hmph
23:19:44 <cpressey> "it" does refer to that. I'm sorry if the rest of the statement looks like a complaint or something; it surely wasn't.
23:19:56 <Vorpal> night →
23:20:56 <alise> Why is it rendering differently...
23:21:15 <olsner> hmm, I now realized I've already made two different implementations of coroutines in C without even realizing it
23:22:16 <olsner> ... and one of them was a parser that occasionally needs to return control and wait for more data
23:22:31 <zzo38> In Enhanced CWEB you can use the @4 command to make a number that is automatically incremented in sequence each time that chunk is used
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