00:00:11 -!- distant_figure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:01:21 -!- distant_figure has joined. 00:01:43 pushpop 00:03:43 poppush 00:03:48 peek 00:03:53 peekpoke 00:03:55 pokepeek 00:04:03 pokeprod 00:04:05 nerdymon in a nerdyball! 00:04:21 (and yes I did get the poke reference) 00:04:28 pikhq: Please regularly remind me that Fine Structure comments are spoilery. 00:04:30 (but um, couldn't think of a new way to continue it ) 00:04:37 s/ )/)/ 00:07:18 pikapika 00:08:18 pikhqpikhq 00:08:30 nooganooga 00:08:38 pikhqoerjan 00:08:42 (from that plot) 00:08:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:09:31 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:10:02 -!- distant_figure has joined. 00:11:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:14:10 Gregor, alise: "* GregorR-L forces it into EgoBot >: )" 00:14:13 XD 00:14:59 Kinky. 00:15:00 :| 00:15:05 Also illegal in 41 states. 00:15:21 atat 00:15:33 @@ 00:15:54 alise, yes he was forcing "Furryscript" into it 00:15:56 he said that 00:16:05 42 states, then. 00:16:06 alise, which makes it even more kinky I guess XD 00:16:07 alise: They are. 00:16:19 alise, furryscript being zzo's scripting language 00:16:24 furry 00:16:28 yuck 00:16:41 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:16:49 AssertionError: broken timestamp: UNLOAD <-- indeed, and I hate xchat that I was using back then 00:17:08 this word reminds me this weird type of pornography that is somewhat popular (and hated) on 4chan 00:17:14 -!- distant_figure has joined. 00:18:27 Vorpal: eh? 00:19:01 Vorpal: Furryscript's main competitor: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FURscript 00:19:15 (Quite infamous, as I'm sure you know.) 00:19:18 (Also: meant to be serious.) 00:19:50 "The person who designed this language was 100% serious about it and the vb6 compiler, but I think he got as far as a text box and a copyright notice before going back to programming his graphics calculator. --Einsidler 10:44, 24 Nov 2006 (UTC)" 00:20:38 mhm 00:21:32 ;] 00:23:16 -!- distant_figure has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:23:39 lol 00:23:57 we have even a suitable category 00:24:02 -!- distant_figure has joined. 00:27:26 i'd love to design another esolang but it's probably impossible to make something completely new 00:29:01 pikhq: Why has he just stuck all his short stories together and called them a novel? 00:29:04 -!- distant_figure has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:29:07 (Note: I realise it'll change as I keep reading.) 00:29:14 nooga: Just try. 00:29:23 -!- distant_figure has joined. 00:30:19 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 00:31:49 alise: It shows that he's new to novels. 00:32:12 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:32:15 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 00:32:27 pikhq: No. The Ed stories flowed better than this. If I was reading this without knowledge of their prior status, I'd assume he's up to something. 00:32:30 pikhq: It is complete now, right? 00:32:36 alise: last time i discovered something exciting... it turned out to be a perfectly normal lisp 00:32:42 nooga: Heh; what was it? 00:33:07 i tried to design something like ais' Feather 00:33:27 What happened? 00:33:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:34:20 alise: It is. 00:34:42 alise: It also gets more flowing later... 00:35:22 pikhq: Good. I just have to ask this, and please answer as vaguely as possible -- a simple "yes" or "no" will be fine -- do these disconnected fragments actually get picked up again, or are they just there to fuck with me? 00:36:04 Hey, my answer questioned: there's Seph again. 00:36:07 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:36:10 You're finally reading Fine Structure? 00:36:25 Indeed. 00:36:28 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:36:28 alise: They get picked up again. 00:36:30 pikhq: Good. 00:36:50 -!- distant_figure has joined. 00:36:52 I have a horrible urge to write some sci-fi, and I'm suppressing it as well as I can because I know it'd be terrible. 00:37:05 What are you up to? 00:37:28 [["Yes," says Mitch. "I can walk through stuff. And myself." He passes his wrists through each other. 00:37:28 "Don't-- don't do that," says Seph, "it could be bad for you."]] 00:37:30 lol 00:37:32 Sgeo|web: Hmm? 00:37:42 Ah 00:37:45 (I've read this chapter before. Actually I think I've read all of these chapters before. I might not have read one.) 00:37:48 Sgeo|web: Oh, chapter. Right. 00:37:55 Indistinguishable from magic. 00:38:01 *"Indistinguishable from magic". 00:38:20 *I might not have read one of them before.) 00:38:34 That is, there is one of them that I might not have read; not "it is a possibility that I have not read any of them before". 00:39:47 Up to a certain point, I presume 00:41:16 -!- Sgeo|FsckPuppy has joined. 00:42:04 Sgeo|web: ? 00:42:11 Right, that's what I mean. 00:42:15 Firefox randomly decided to crash 00:42:17 The standalone stories that have been integrated into the timeline. 00:42:29 Some of them were never standalone 00:42:30 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Why haven't you switched to Ubuntu yet? 00:42:38 Still don't have the USB stick 00:42:44 "Indistinguishable from magic" is the first one that has never been standalone yet, I think. 00:43:07 "Power Of Two" was a directory but not inside Fine Structure to start with, I think. 00:43:17 I don't recall. 00:43:36 "Indistinguishable from magic" has always been part of Fine Structure, though, to my knowledge. Nonetheless, I have read it. I believe it was the first story for a while. 00:43:39 alise: nothing, at one point i proved that my meta abstractions system is just lisp's macro system 00:43:42 nooga: heh 00:43:58 Zanjero was always a sequel to Power of Two 00:44:15 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:44:16 Power of Two was once taken offline due to someone claiming it could get published, iirc 00:44:49 [[2008-07-18 18:30:49 by Paradoxia: 00:44:50 Ah, I see what you're saying. He **REDACTED** 00:44:50 2008-07-18 18:59:56 by Sam: 00:44:50 Paradoxia, I edited your comment because it gives away plot details from later in the story.]] 00:44:50 Thank you. 00:44:53 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Yes, that's what I mean. 00:45:07 The two teleportation stories were outside at first, too, I think. 00:45:37 Might nto be the best idea to read comments before you've read the whole thing 00:45:42 Indeed. 00:45:49 And now I'm turning into Teal'c. 00:46:02 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: "Unbelievable scenes" is a bit of a bad opening because I thought "FUCK YEAH I hope the next few chapters are like this too". 00:46:58 Sam told us that he'd be bringing a story in 00:47:13 I saw all the speculation about USIS, but... I'm shutting up now 00:48:07 well 00:48:08 USIS? Would it be a spoiler to expand that acronym? 00:48:57 Unbelievable Scenes in space >.> 00:49:10 Which is not the name of it, so n/m 00:49:21 Why did you think it was "in space"? :P 00:49:52 Good question 00:50:36 * Sgeo|FsckPuppy inexplicably starts singing a song 00:50:54 I was about to say the name, but if you twisted it just right, you'd get a spoiler 00:50:55 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Let me guess: Spoilers? 00:51:07 Is "Unbelievable scenes in space" a spoiler? 00:51:23 No 00:51:24 The name of the song I'm thinking of is.. kind of 00:51:24 alise, "Unbelievable scenes in spoilers" 00:51:25 :P 00:51:26 Actually, I should probably just remember your track record with Fine Structure spoilers and ignore you until I finish it. 00:51:32 /ignore, that is. 00:51:36 But I'm too foolish and kind-hearted to. 00:51:54 I'm not going to deliberately spoil you 00:52:13 But you will link to a ROT-13 decoder and say a bunch of stuff in ROT-13, and then say "...which is how Fine Structure ends". 00:52:30 No, I won't 00:52:34 * alise wonders why the story's continuing as normal when all the stars and shit have been blinked out. 00:52:39 (Yes, yes, I know, non-chronological order.) 00:52:56 (Fabula and sujet and all that.) 00:53:22 Fabula and sujet? 00:55:47 JFGI 00:56:52 I did 01:03:47 Well, then, now you know. 01:04:00 Hey, and Power Of Two reaches its next chapter: Exponents. 01:04:08 Don't like that capital O. I don't like it. 01:04:53 And the characters connect again! 01:04:57 You did read Paper Universe, right? 01:12:49 alise? 01:12:59 Yes. Yes I did. 01:14:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:15:47 Ok 01:16:55 night → 01:18:32 -!- distant_figure has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:19:21 -!- distant_figure has joined. 01:23:35 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Is Ching's first name Kuang? 01:23:46 No. 01:23:56 Yes. 01:25:40 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:25:55 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: I know FTL gets invented, but I've forgotten the name of the guy who does it already. :) Bloody comments. 01:25:59 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:26:16 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:26:21 Unless it just meant whoever invented the device here on Earth in On Digital Extremities and onwards. 01:26:21 Um... I don't think it does? 01:26:27 Huh. Alright then. 01:26:28 Oh, FTLC? 01:26:41 Well, that's blocked, which you should know already 01:26:42 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 01:27:02 -!- distant_figure has joined. 01:27:11 Oh, and you may be thinking of a story that's retconned ouyt 01:27:12 *out 01:27:26 Yes, you are 01:27:44 *ping alise * 01:28:08 FTL was invented in that retconned-out story. 01:28:59 Pong. 01:29:10 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: I have not read the story, as I explained. 01:29:12 So thanks for the spoiler. 01:29:27 Also, you just spoilered that it stays blocked forever. 01:29:34 No I didn't 01:29:46 [FTL gets invented, implicitly "sometime in the future"] "No it doesn't" 01:29:50 Provided as evidence: 01:29:51 Oh, FTLC? 01:29:51 Well, that's blocked, which you should know already 01:29:54 Yes you did. 01:30:01 I'm excluding possible developments later on 01:30:30 Whether this means that it stays blocked or not... well, I'm not saying 01:31:09 Same with FTL travel 01:31:48 Don 01:32:29 Don't attempt to decode, from what I've said, information about the future of the story 01:33:31 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: No, but you see, you reacted to "faster-than-light communication gets invented" with "no it doesn't". You then say "perhaps you meant [this form of it]?" and then state that it does not work; obviously, the answer you gave first is validated by your second negation, meaning that it never gets unblocked. 01:33:48 Anyway, maybe I should just try not to talk to you about Fine Structure and vice versa until I'm done with it and it is impossible to spoil me. :P 01:34:04 I still remember a bunch of people suffocate at one point. 01:34:04 Where's pikhq? 01:34:59 Dammit, where's someone who read FS already? 01:35:57 pikhq, ping ping-a-ding 01:36:15 Why do you want such a person? 01:36:24 (Wow, that's a pretty ghastly way to kill someone wrt. Eleven.) 01:36:32 -!- augur has joined. 01:36:58 alise, warning: You do not want the answer to that question 01:37:05 Therefore, I won't answer 01:38:12 -!- cheater00 has joined. 01:38:21 lol @ the use of BBC "News" 01:38:31 (The tendency of the BBC to put every damn thing in quotes in news headlines) 01:38:38 ("Two killed in "transporter accident"") 01:39:22 Can I say something if I don't feel it's a spoiler? 01:40:12 Only if you check really damn hard that it provides no possible inferrable information about the story to someone who has not read "Two killed in "transporter accident"" or beyond yet. 01:40:31 :S 01:40:36 I don't think "Stuff happens" being inferrable is that bad 01:40:56 Is it ok if what I say simply infers that? 01:41:22 Outside of the official stories, but still canonical, is another thing in that format 01:41:33 Whether there are more things of that format within the stories, I'm not sure 01:42:21 Which format? 01:42:26 News story 01:42:34 There is canon outside of the official stories? 01:42:39 Is that not a contradiction? 01:42:40 nooga: why :S? 01:43:34 It is not a contradiction 01:43:36 *why ":S"? 01:43:40 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Is listing them a spoiler? 01:43:51 well, i just typed it 01:43:56 YES 01:44:05 Looking at the Extras contains spoilers 01:44:27 Why are there so many fucking spoilers? 01:44:33 What are the extras? The notes below the stories? 01:44:42 Are the CHAPTER TITLES spoilers? I've read them. 01:44:57 The thing listed asExtras, appendices, feedback (subdirectory) 01:45:09 Arguably 01:45:44 brolog 01:45:54 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:46:19 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: *as Extras, 01:47:21 -!- distant_figure has joined. 01:47:38 distant_figure annoys me with this cycling 01:48:01 I think I like Mitch. 01:48:02 nooga: Ditto. 01:48:04 distant_figure: Stop it. 01:48:15 nooga: oh wait 01:48:17 he lives in south africa 01:48:20 probably their power grid 01:48:26 ah 01:48:36 he's mentioned it going off and on a lot before 01:48:43 sick 01:48:49 iirc they have regular planned downtime of the power grid too :) 01:48:59 i would buy a diesel generator in such case 01:49:13 hah 01:49:26 or even use my car to generate electricity for computers 01:49:50 alise, I'd ask you a question, but you'd be able to ... um 01:49:52 crap 01:50:20 ooooooh, it's soo late 01:50:49 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: "I'd ask you a question, but you'd be able to" is not a spoiler. 01:50:53 So what the fuck is it now? 01:51:04 sleep time, good night 01:51:12 Night nooga. 01:51:15 alise, yes it is. If you squint real hard and are a bit psychic 01:51:18 Night nooga 01:51:28 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: It really isn't. 01:52:04 If I complete that, promise not to be angry at me? 01:52:24 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: It is a spoiler, yes? 01:52:34 If you think about it 01:52:46 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Remember when I said we just shouldn't talk about it? 01:52:54 Ok 01:52:57 I am trying to enjoy a novel here. :P 01:53:16 Ooh a SUBDIRECTORY. 01:53:26 1970-? 01:54:21 Yes. 01:54:29 Arcologies sure feature a lot in this. 01:54:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:55:01 zzo38, have you read Fine Structure? 01:55:02 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:55:29 Sgeo: No 01:55:43 What is it? 01:55:58 -!- distant_figure has joined. 01:57:00 A story that I've read and alise is reading 01:58:00 http://qntm.org/structure, for what it's worth. 01:59:33 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Am I meant to be completely disoriented, chronologically? 01:59:39 Maaaan, I own the domain name onero.us and I STILL do nothing useful with it. 01:59:47 -!- trinithis has joined. 01:59:49 You'll reorient 01:59:52 Gregor: I'll buy it. 02:00:03 alise: No way! Also you can't, legally :P 02:00:13 Gregor: No, but you can let it drop. Or I could pay you fees. :P 02:00:20 (Let it drop in exchange for me paying you a lump sum, that is.) 02:00:37 alise: No, I mean you can't own it in that it's a .us domain and you're not a US resident. Not that this is really enforced, but /technically/. 02:00:51 Gregor: Oh. 02:00:56 Gregor: Well let's pretend I am a US resident. 02:01:13 alise: Then it's just the age problem :P 02:01:17 Maybe 02:01:26 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: This thing must be set in an alternate universe; presumably 1970- is implying some sort of circa 1970 onwards setting here, and it's definitely not after the present day due to the vehicles mentioned, so... 02:01:32 Gregor: What age problem? 02:01:39 Uh 02:01:44 Do you actually own it or just rent it like everyone else? 02:01:46 O, it is a story about information? Is a book available? 02:01:54 zzo38: There are PDFs available that you could print out. 02:01:57 Maybe you'll reorient yourself once you finish reading 1970- 02:02:06 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:02:07 alise: I just rent it like everyone else, but that's still a contract. 02:02:10 "A story about information" hasn't quite come together yet; but then, these are localised segments. 02:02:23 Gregor: Well, I happen to have purported to agree to several of them and nobody's g-- 02:02:29 Gregor: I can flagrantly violate the terms of my domain contracts. 02:02:31 OMG ^_^ 02:02:37 alise: OK, I might try the PDF 02:02:54 zzo38: There's two PDFs. I guess they're formatted differently. 02:03:06 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:03:17 zzo38: I'd go for the second. 02:03:21 It's smaller, and better typeset. 02:03:24 alise, just keep reading 02:04:08 alise: The files are a lot of pages. Where can I purchase this book? 02:04:24 zzo38: There is no printed copy as of yet. You could print the PDF, or just read it online. 02:04:33 Or you could use lulu.com to create your own print copy using that formatted PDF. 02:04:38 And then buy it... from yourself... 02:05:43 alise: I would rather buy it from the author, if I can. If I can somehow make something on lulu.com to make it pay someone else, and that I can indicate who to pay, for each book even in the same account to be able to put payment to different people 02:06:07 zzo38: You could set it to the minimum price so that all money goes to Lulu, and then send some money to Sam Hughes. 02:06:21 I imagine he'd give you an address to send a cheque or such to if you emailed him. 02:06:21 zzo38, are you a logreader? 02:06:25 alise: But that won't do if someone else purchases the book too 02:06:34 zzo38: You can set it so that only you can see it. 02:06:38 Sgeo: I do sometimes read the log 02:06:41 Then nobody else would be able to purchase it, making it a personal copy. 02:06:42 hmm 02:06:56 His email is on this page, obfuscated for spambots: http://qntm.org/contact 02:07:02 * Sgeo|FsckPuppy needs to talk to pikhq 02:07:08 "I am not looking to add advertisements to qntm.org at this time. Thanks for your interest." ;; guess he didn't bother to update it when he added Google ads 02:07:27 alise: But what if someone else wants to buy it, too? 02:07:48 zzo38: Then... they'll just have to do what you did. Or, far more likely, read it online or print out their own copy. 02:07:59 Or you could simply promise to give all profits from the book to Sam Hughes. 02:08:47 * Sgeo|FsckPuppy blibbers 02:08:50 Maybe I'll ask Sine 02:09:09 361 pages; I would have expected the book to be longer. 02:09:33 Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Gosh, the start of Crash Zero is a bit boring. 02:09:58 alise: That is not a bad idea. But, if I run a business selling this book, I am not going to give *all* the profits to Sam Hughes (but I will give most of the profits). But when I have time to run a business, this can be one of the products. And then he can earn the money, too! 02:10:10 zzo38: But you wouldn't have done anything but fill out a form on Lulu. 02:10:18 -!- distant_figure has joined. 02:10:25 Meh, I see the whole of 1970- as.. um, shutting up 02:10:26 They process all orders, they print and mail out all copies, they take their chunk of the profit (plus however much you want, possibly nothing). 02:10:41 So taking profits would be a bit disingenuous... and illegal, too, without explicit consent from Sam Hughes. 02:10:55 Actually, so would publishing a public edition in the first place. 02:11:18 alise: I know. I can't publish it at all without permission, of course. 02:11:30 That is why I suggest I would rather I purchase it from *his* Lulu account. 02:11:30 Untrue; you can make a private copy for yourself on Lulu like I suggested. 02:11:46 He has stated he will not publish on any "vanity" press, i.e. self-service presses. 02:11:48 This includes Lulu. 02:11:55 So you're out of luck on that front. 02:12:19 * Sgeo|FsckPuppy ponders the nature of spoilers 02:13:14 alise: Ah, I guess I can make a private copy to myself and then delete it. I might consider doing that. 02:15:41 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:15:42 But not yet. It will be much later. 02:16:08 Or just read them online 02:16:53 -!- distant_figure has joined. 02:17:21 zzo38: I suggest doing what Sgeo|FsckPuppy just suggested. 02:17:52 -!- Sgeo|FsckPuppy has changed nick to Winston. 02:18:08 -!- Winston has changed nick to Sgeo|web. 02:25:34 BRB 02:29:49 Even if I read it online, I will not do so right now. 02:30:49 -!- EOF has joined. 02:30:52 yo 02:31:04 still sorting those logs? 02:31:30 Nay 02:31:38 EOF, have you read Fine Structure? 02:31:46 Actually, no 02:31:54 I don't know how trustworthy you are 02:32:08 ish 02:32:20 no i haven't 02:32:50 i'll go through the wikipedia article :) 02:32:57 * pikhq declares Japanese rap "weird". 02:33:02 EOF: There isn't one! Ha! 02:33:02 pikhq, finally! 02:33:19 * EOF seconds prior /m statement 02:34:00 http://bit.ly/8PRw6j I mean seriously, whaaat? 02:34:03 http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldika_strukturo in Esperanto 02:34:42 EOF: Mia Esperanto malbonas. Japanalingvo? 02:34:43 pikhq: They're not even trying 02:34:44 Sheesh 02:35:27 alise: Would you expect them to be doing stereotypical urban black culture? 02:35:44 pikhq: I meant the actual rapping. 02:35:49 Ah. Yeah. 02:35:51 What I can do is make a file for TeX so that you can use UTF-8. It should not be too complicated to do. Simply to make all characters 128 to 255 active and then make table which character in a font corresponds to which character in a different font, that should do it 02:35:59 As far as I can make out he's just picking the shortest words with the easiest sounds to end every line with :P 02:36:04 Not that I can make out much of it at all, of course. 02:36:09 Not knowing Japanese and all. 02:36:16 Eeeps 02:36:29 Eeepc 02:36:42 http://tinyurl.com/2amodvo 02:36:46 alise: What you're hearing there is just the normal Japanese syllable structure. 02:37:04 It's not very good 02:37:18 There *aren't* many sounds in Japanese. 02:37:26 yeah 02:37:31 And I think he got most of them in there. 02:37:37 http://tinyurl.com/2amodvo 02:37:45 links to a let-me-google-that-for-you for "Child Pornography" 02:37:47 pikhq, did you receive my msg's? 02:37:54 if anyone's too lazy to click. or is just not stupid enough to click links from EOF 02:37:56 Sgeo|web: Yes. 02:38:21 pikhq: "Communication" You can't just fucking use an English word to rhyme 02:38:33 Nobody finishes English rhymes with a French word because they're too lazy :| 02:38:44 YOU USED "COMMUNICATION" AGAIN 02:38:48 You SUCK 02:38:51 Maybe we could find a foreign word to rhyme with "orange" 02:38:58 Door hinge. 02:39:02 alise: It's a perfectly ordinary and commonly used word in Japanese. 02:39:07 pikhq: Shut up. :| 02:39:48 Law of Fantasy: Any language you make up uses "ae" to excess. 02:39:54 "Ika Lgass Hunaethn" "ancient Aethn" 02:39:57 Sam Hughes, I am disappoint. 02:40:20 Most people suck at making plausible languages. 02:41:05 Even though for most uses of a made-up language (namely, handful of loan words) it would pretty much suffice to define a basic phonology and perhaps a handful of morphemes. 02:41:16 Well, kind of difficult for the characters to ever learn the true pronunciation, I think 02:41:22 uh 02:41:27 You are up to that, right? 02:41:34 Sgeo|web: True pronunciation? What? 02:41:39 alise: Ignore him. 02:41:46 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:41:51 I think maybe we are getting too lax with our Sgeo-does-not-talk-to-me-about-Fine-Structure-at-all rule :P 02:42:01 alise: No, the thing is, he's making shit up. 02:42:06 Oh. 02:42:13 Wild mass guess fanon? 02:42:21 No, literally making shit up. 02:42:25 wat. 02:42:46 Has he divulged some insane theory to you in /msg or something :P 02:43:32 anyone want to do some marathon programming? 02:44:05 pikhq: Is it just me, or has Sam Hughes actually gone to lengths to make "The Voice Of The World" in "The Nature of the Weapon" actually seem like it was translated? 02:44:10 Like, not flowing quite in the usual manner. 02:44:18 It may just be my brain making shit up itself. 02:46:41 AFK 02:46:43 Not AFP 02:46:47 What? 02:47:18 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:48:46 I wonder how on earth all this is going to tie together. 02:49:09 If I was Hughes, I'd be looking for a cop-out ending that saves me from having to explain everything round about now. 02:49:18 * Sgeo|web angers at AndChat 02:49:24 Sgeo|web: "AFP"? 02:49:42 Thought you'd have guessed 02:50:12 Well, I haven't, so elaborate. 02:50:20 Away From Phone 02:50:40 a while back a friend of mine learned PHP, the next month he was a pothead.... 02:51:46 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:52:09 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:55:23 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:57:57 Alise, tell me when you leave 1970- 02:58:13 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 02:58:24 SgeoN1: Why? 02:59:09 Because I'd get bored wth being updated every 1970- story you finish 02:59:17 SgeoN1: And why do you need to know...? 02:59:33 I'm on "The Big Idea", anyway. 02:59:44 Ah 03:00:26 Now TMI. 03:04:28 Note to self: Yuen is fucking crazy. 03:05:30 Whether by doing that thing to that group every time interval, or by saying she does. 03:06:02 The former, seemingly. 03:07:04 I'd ask whether a certain story is still listed, but it would reveal a connection to that stry 03:07:44 Whoa, him-- 03:07:50 SgeoN1: You could check. 03:07:56 SgeoN1: Uh, in 1970-? I can just paste the list. 03:07:58 Just did 03:08:03 --him! 03:08:12 How has HE survived?... 03:08:14 No 03:08:18 Do 03:08:18 not 03:08:19 say 03:08:19 a 03:08:20 word 03:08:50 You think I spoiled you when I didnt 03:09:42 You said no presumably to the story. 03:09:46 I thought it was to that M-guy. 03:09:50 I think it no longer. 03:10:02 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:10:07 I am 99% certain it's that guy, anyway, since he can do that thing he does. 03:10:23 (Fine Structure is a story about saying the most with very, very little.) 03:10:56 -!- distant_figure has joined. 03:11:14 Ask pikhq what I meant, I'm not retyping it 03:11:30 Um 03:11:39 No; that would be a spoiler. 03:11:46 We should make up the plane 17 and more to "hyperastral planes", where the high bits of the code numbers can indicate properties and right-to-left and complex scripts and other things like that. 03:11:51 I am now leaving "1970-". 03:12:42 (Where plane 0 is normal plane, 1 to 16 is supplementary planes, and 17 and above is hyperastral.) 03:15:31 And so I'm back, from outer space (no relevance ) 03:15:41 It's playing on the radio 03:15:51 Oh, it's you're 03:18:42 Now there's a song associated with one of the crappier virtual worlds 03:18:49 Or, that I associate with 03:19:12 Planes 16777216 up to 3355431 shall be hyperastral planes. 03:19:31 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:20:18 Not as crappy as imvu though 03:20:32 What? Which? Not that I care, but. 03:20:43 -!- distant_figure has joined. 03:20:57 vSides 03:21:29 vSide 03:21:52 Note that my metric for crwppiness behaves weird sometimes 03:25:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_video_games ;; Non-violent first-person shooter 03:26:18 Super Noah's Ark 3D 03:26:24 if(you != lying){printf ("you deserve a hug.\n");} 03:27:14 (if (abuses-fake-code-for-dialogue-in-that-way-once-more? EOF) (perish-burning-fire EOF)) 03:27:30 At least make your fake code work properly in /theory/ or just don't do it at all or ... ever... 03:27:37 Gregor: I approve 03:28:13 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:29:13 fine, do you want me ti pastebin the whole file? 03:29:14 you.truth_status? 03:29:38 EOF: There is no possible way "you != lying" makes coherent sense. 03:29:56 Sure, you can make that code compile and execute... and possibly even ask the user if they're lying, and make you = 1, and store it as a boolean in lying. 03:30:18 But it's still not what you were trying to express. And fake code is irritatingly pointless unless it has some code-related merit. 03:30:23 And yes I'm grumpy. 03:30:25 If you is an indication of truth or falsehood for some nutty reason 03:30:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:30:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 03:30:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:30:35 it's not elegant 03:30:51 I sort of see lying as a constant here 03:31:00 It's not RIGHT. You are-a person; lying is a status. A person cannot be a status belonging to them; it is meaningless. You have failed. 03:31:07 lol 03:31:21 Therefore perishment. 03:31:31 but no 03:31:44 * SgeoN1 attachés an iron chain with ball to EOF 03:31:44 the program simply continues to execute 03:32:17 * SgeoN1 misread perishment as punishment 03:32:18 life goes on, or ends... 03:32:29 SgeoN1: attachés? Really now? 03:32:46 I managed to typo an accent! 03:33:52 lol 03:34:05 what keyborad layout? 03:34:22 keyborat 03:34:43 The N1 keyboard layout 03:35:00 it'd be easier to make this in java 03:35:08 i was goinc for C 03:35:14 Java poisoning is a terrible thing 03:35:33 yeah 03:35:35 -!- distant_figure has joined. 03:35:46 java is (:-/ 03:35:49 Hell, even vaguely-C-like-family-language-poisoning is sad 03:35:58 nooo 03:36:00 C FTW 03:36:05 C is nice 03:36:09 uSUCK 03:36:14 But sticking with that family of languages is poisonous 03:36:21 :( 03:36:45 C is all powerful 03:37:02 Learn Haskell, or a Lisp, or Factor, or Smalltak (probably not Smalltalk, not different enough) 03:37:06 omnipotent 03:37:15 *Smalltalk 03:37:19 * alise finds an error in Fine Structure 03:37:23 alise? 03:37:29 EOF: "uSUCK" -> obnoxious. Rabid C defending -> obnoxious. 03:37:32 hence the esoteric channel 03:37:46 It's a basic mental health thing 03:37:52 What is? 03:38:05 Learning non-industry languages 03:38:16 Sgeo|web: "You're wife's maiden name" is the error. 03:38:23 I doubt EOF has anything to do with the industry. 03:38:45 I should check that what I removed is actually the HD 03:38:48 * EOF removes SgeoN1's poorly attached ball and chain. 03:39:33 sudo su 03:39:40 "sudo su" is extremely bad practice. 03:39:44 "sudo -s" is always preferable. 03:39:46 echo "i am omnipotent" 03:39:53 Or "sudo -u user -s" for the case of switching to another user. 03:39:54 rm -rf / 03:40:08 killall rm 03:40:28 kill -9 Sgeo|web 03:40:32 If Sgeo|web's command is executing, you are not facing a shell prompt. 03:40:43 I am not a PID 03:40:44 ^C 03:40:45 That is "kill -9 Sgeo | web". That is unlikely to be what you want. 03:40:50 Furthermore, kill takes a process ID. 03:41:20 what is your PID Sgeo|web ? 03:41:38 Does this inanity have a point? Humour can count as a point. 03:41:44 you're shit, number 2 03:41:48 kill -9 2 03:42:00 I mean, assuming that it will, eventually, evolve or progress into something that has a single element of humour -- that would be enough. 03:42:24 sorry 03:42:29 that was mean 03:42:40 Killing people is generally considered mean. 03:42:40 and i'm drunck 03:42:47 and my friend is high 03:42:56 and wer'e all idiots 03:43:01 What has your /friend's/ mental state got to do with anything? 03:43:21 -!- distant_figure has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:43:23 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:43:48 -!- distant_figure has joined. 03:44:25 If my house were a restaurant, it would be condemned 03:44:33 hmm 03:44:48 * EOF gets Sgeo|web a maid 03:45:45 * EOF gets Sgeo|web laid 03:46:10 * EOF sets up Sgeo|web 's RAID 03:46:48 RAIDs probably still die when dropped 03:47:36 * EOF has overused rhyme and for that he will have dearly paid 03:47:57 * EOF is sorry for what he said 03:48:21 paid and said do not rhyme 03:48:39 I speak for all sane persons when I said that this is proof that English is demented 03:48:49 alise: where are you? 03:49:00 The Story So Far. 03:49:17 Sgeo|web: only shitty laptops fail like yours when dropped 03:49:33 my Toshiba has a habit of parking the drive heads when I so much as tilt it, and it's very effective. 03:49:36 :P 03:49:40 -!- wareya has joined. 03:49:41 tl;dr I <3 laptop 03:49:45 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:49:53 My laptop is old 03:50:03 Although it is a Toshiba... 03:50:10 my laptop is new and crappy 03:50:29 because it's a gateway(ewww) 03:50:37 they overheat :/ 03:51:34 Calrus -- 03:51:38 -!- EOF has quit (Quit: Page closed). 03:51:45 * pikhq sets out to replace ALSA 03:51:57 -- Are all the guys with that name in this story the same fucking person?! 03:51:59 Sheesh! 03:52:20 pikhq: With OSSv4? 03:52:23 * Sgeo|web forgot the details of that story 03:53:15 alise: Yes. 03:53:37 pikhq: Recommendable. BTW: Install XFCE's mixer if you don't have it. It can do OSSv4. 03:53:53 I have it. 03:53:59 What's so bad about ALSA? 03:54:02 PCM11 -- for me, at least -- and the output of the first vmixer -- are the ones you want. Use ossxmix to turn everything up to full volume, first; watch out for application-specific volumes. 03:54:05 Sometimes they start out low. 03:54:13 Basically you want everything but your last output turned up to maximum. 03:54:16 Which is not the default. 03:54:18 "osstest" is useful. 03:54:20 Sgeo|web: It sucks. 03:55:12 Aaaaand there's not useful Gentoo packages. Fek. 03:55:23 pikhq: Yes, there must be. 03:55:31 http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/OSS4 03:55:36 Add the OSSv4 layman overlay: 03:55:37 layman -a oss-overlay 03:55:54 alise: The tarballs referred to in those ebuilds no longer exist. 03:55:59 Lovely. 03:56:04 pikhq: Give up now while you still have your sanity. 03:56:13 Recommended suffix to that sentence: "On Gentoo, that is." 03:56:29 I have three options: write my own ebuilds, give up, or switch distros. 03:56:47 And I don't know of any distros that suck less ATM. 03:56:48 You use freaking Gentoo. The last option is such a wonderful one, I'm surprised you're not going to take it twice. 03:56:56 pikhq: Well, true. 03:57:07 I use Ubuntu. Obviously, you won't. I don't blame you. 03:57:24 Well. Nix is *highly* tempting. 03:57:25 pikhq: Arch Linux is decent enough and OSSv4 is a single installation away -- but its community is as bad as Gentoo's used to be. 03:57:45 pikhq: You could try GoboLinux. For the fucking hell of it. 03:57:46 I don't think I can be trusted to judge communities 03:57:55 alise: Are you familiar with Nix? 03:57:58 Relatively. 03:58:06 It's totally done wrongly, of course. 03:58:08 Based on one person, I thought the whole LambdaMOO community was anti-documentatipn 03:58:18 Yeah, but less so than a lot of other things. 03:58:30 Actually Gobo Linux is like Nix when you don't try and make everything as much like Haskell as possible. 03:58:30 GoboLinux might be fun to try as well. 03:58:35 *GoboLinux 03:58:58 pikhq: And if you use GoboLinux/Étoilé, well, then you have OS X with Torvalds' name stuck on it. :P 03:59:10 And a rather hopeless set of applications... 03:59:27 GoboLinux only supports i686. DEAL BREAKER 03:59:37 pikhq: Oh, I wish tuomov's blog is still up; he had a *wonderful* post on package manager design. 03:59:55 alise: Know the old URL? archive.org 04:00:00 pikhq: robots.txt. 04:00:06 FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 04:00:15 I HATE MORONS 04:00:19 I'd email him, but, well, his abrasive personality is pretty well-known. :) 04:00:24 pikhq: It may be his server administrators. 04:00:30 pikhq: Hey, I know1 04:00:32 *know! 04:00:33 Try a BSD. 04:00:38 alise: did you get to the description of Akker? 04:00:48 alise: Proprietary ATI drivers available? 04:00:50 Sgeo|web: I know he committed suicide. That's all; shut up. 04:00:56 pikhq: Only one way to find out, buddy! 04:00:58 That's all I wanted to know 04:01:07 Google! 04:01:21 -!- distant_figure has joined. 04:01:34 That's a "no, but some crazy bastard hacked the proprietary drivers to kinda-work on FreeBSD". 04:01:41 Bleh, FreeBSD. 04:01:45 So BORING. 04:01:50 But who needs graphics? 04:01:53 If it weren't for that, shit, I'd be on a BSD tonight. 04:01:54 pikhq: I see only one solution. 04:02:17 alise: I'm not making my own distro. 04:02:23 Apex. (Alise + Pikhq + Unix = Apix, "ooh that's similar" -> Apex). 04:02:28 No, WE are! KITTEN HUGS FOR EVERYONE 04:03:26 Oh, yeah. Another thing that makes me hate most distros: they almost all suck at building packages sanely. 04:03:51 Gentoo is somehow the best at doing this. Everything else will *gleefully* allow things like undefined symbols in shipped binaries. 04:04:16 pikhq: ~Apex~ 04:04:43 Debian's better about this than most, simply because they only change APIs every couple years or so. 04:05:02 AyeAyeAyeAyeAyePecccks 04:05:07 And Gentoo's better about this than most, because they change APIs daily and as such they actually have to deal with API breakage correctly. 04:05:32 pikhq: PAY-EX. 04:05:57 And Slackware's better about this than most, because Patrick Volkerding is an all-around good guy. 04:06:23 -!- distant_figure has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:06:30 Ex-pay. 04:06:50 -!- distant_figure has joined. 04:07:21 pikhq: You cannot hide from its necessity! 04:07:29 YOU MUST NIX NIX 04:07:40 * pikhq shall install Nix in a VM to check it out 04:07:45 NO 04:07:46 NO DARK SIDE 04:07:47 ONLY APEX 04:07:57 I even have the slogan 04:08:11 "The Apex of Linux Systems Design in A Downloadable TargzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzz" 04:08:24 alise: are you at Sundown yet? 04:08:30 No, dammit! 04:09:44 HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT LINK TO UNBELIEVABLE SCENES 04:09:48 Sgeo|web: I'm at it; I will not read it. I will leave. 04:09:57 pikhq: APEX. Is this having any effect on you? 04:10:19 Why? 04:10:20 ..? 04:10:25 Sgeo|web: I need to fucking sleep. 04:10:32 Oh 04:10:46 pikhq: Well, is i-- Apex 04:10:53 alise: Normal sleep is no good? 04:11:06 Normal sleep is excellent! I will now obtain it. 04:11:11 But only if pikhq Apex pikhq Apex 04:11:32 No? Alas. Goodnight. 04:11:35 Bye. 04:11:37 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:13:37 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:15:05 -!- distant_figure has joined. 04:18:26 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:22:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:29:02 -!- jcp has joined. 04:38:46 I found this list of videogame cliches: http://qntm.org/cliches 04:39:03 But I do think some of my games (and other games from other sources) are break some or all. 04:39:10 Let's think about "Super ASCII MZX Town" series. 04:39:24 Player one is blue and player two is red: Not applicable. 04:39:47 If it has a weak spot, it'll flash yellow when you shoot it: This game breaks this cliche. 04:41:36 Any broken machine of any kind will work perfectly once you have found the correct spare part. Moreover there is exactly one spare part hidden in the level. It is the correct one: There is one situation like this, but there is many spare parts (you need all of them). And they are found in a different level than the thing you have to fix. 04:42:54 An experienced gamer will automatically destroy crates/pots/boxes/rats to look for ammunition/health/magic/gold inside: In this game, shooting crates/pots/boxes/rats/monsters/yourself/etc is likely to only waste your ammunition. So use it only when absolutely necessary! 04:43:54 automatically looking for the red key to the red door: Most keys in this game do unlock the same color door. But there is one door which is different. 04:43:56 -!- sshc has joined. 04:45:49 Climbing a ladder is more life-threatening than engaging in a gun battle: Not applicable, there are no ladders. 04:47:13 If it's covered in fur, its a good guy. If it's covered in spikes, it's a bad guy: This game breaks this cliche. You cannot tell by what they are covered by. You often cannot tell by even seemingly obvious things! 04:51:30 Make the gamer think: Yes, to win the Super ASCII MZX Town series games, you do actually have to think about it. If you do what might appear obvious to you, you will quickly get stuck. 04:53:46 You might find a clue that seems obvious, but the obvious interpretation is not correct! You have to think about it sideways, too. 04:57:24 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:03:39 does that mean that you have a platformer part where gravity is sideways 05:04:29 GreaseMonkey: Not in the game I am discussing, but there are such things in other games I have invented in the past. 05:06:23 Good guys will only have first names, and bad guys will only have last names: My game does not follow this rule. (Also, I consider the terms "first name" and "last name" racist, but that's not the point.) However: 05:07:31 MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER (who happens to be a bad buy) asks for various things in order to take over the world (including a copy of the game on VHS). Eventually BIG_MONSTER (a good guy) reveal they know the other guy's real name, which happens to be Dave. 05:08:42 (Yes, I do mean a copy of the game that those characters (and your character) are in!) 05:11:32 I have found more lists of these cliches, and since this game series is not finished yet, I might decide to break some of these cliches in the future games in this series. 05:12:23 Every powerful character you attempt to seek aid from will first insist upon "testing your strength" in a battle to the death: No, but there is one character who fakes it! 05:13:22 No city will have more than two shops (Natural Monopoly Rule): In Part II, there is one shop that has many vendors. I do not know whether or not this counts. 05:15:02 When you're out wandering around the world, you must kill everything you meet: Not the case at all. In fact, attempting to kill everything you meet will just waste your ammunition, even if you are successful at first. (You willl also get less bonus points because you have less conserved ammunition) 05:20:01 Xenobiology Rule (predatory species of the world will include spiders, scorpions, snakes, wolf, dragon, etc): The game does not include all of them. Also, some individuals will be good to you instead, even of similar type than the other ones. Example: In one room there is two dragons. One will hurt you. The other is good and won't hurt you (they will ask for your autograph, though). 05:21:45 However, I might say one thing: The spiders/scorpions/dragons/etc that are good to you and don't hurt you can usually talk, in this game (but occasionally in a language which you cannot understand). 05:37:19 A note about the source-codes of this game: The codes are freely available for anyone to view, modify, and distribute. The codes do exactly what it seems, with no lies. However, reading them is more likely to deceive you than to help you to win this game (in most cases, not all)! 05:41:19 -!- augur has joined. 05:49:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:55:43 throne room + thief is so good 05:55:48 why, because "jump off a cliff" actually means "jump, off hits a with a cliff" 05:55:49 ? 05:55:55 erm 05:56:06 "jump cliffs off with 'a'" 05:56:07 ? 05:56:13 Throne room + thief? Give an example, perhaps 05:58:23 An ending sequence that's little more than a single line and a pixelly picture: Part I, just says you win (no picture). Part II, does have a picture (that has nothing else to do with the rest of the game), and other text, such as "Those responsible for the subtitles have been sacked". The things having to do with the game are the "you win" and the bonus points. 06:00:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:16:07 ever played dominion? 06:18:45 coppro: No. 06:20:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:21:35 How does that game work? 06:22:11 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:23:42 Night all 06:26:21 Do you know The CGA Collection: The CGA Collection is a collection of games for DOS systems, all written in QBASIC, all using either 40x25 sixteen colors text mode or 320x200 four colors graphics mode. Sound effects are only PC speaker. Games include: BJACK, BUMPERSH, COLORSPI, ELEMENTA, DOWN, KNAR, HACKBITS, GIVEAWAY, MAKETEN, MINES, MUTCHNAM, PUZGEN, QCOOKIE, SKEDALS, SNAKEBIT, SOVMINGA, STARSTAK, STARWARS, and more. 06:27:18 The game MUTCHNAM has ten billion levels (really!). 06:28:17 The game KNAR has five thousand levels. 06:28:19 dominion, the board g ame? 06:28:21 it's pretty cool 06:28:53 imagine a CCG, but the game is to build your deck (instead of building it beforehand and the game is playing it) 06:29:22 myndzi: OK. Now I know a little bit. 06:29:46 have a little bit more ;) 06:29:52 i haven't played in a while so i forget the exact details 06:30:10 but basically you set up 10 stacks of cards in the center of the table, as well as stacks of property and money 06:30:16 (these vary in amount by the number of players) 06:30:17 myndzi: Have you ever invented any chess variants? 06:30:40 on your turn you draw cards, play them, and discard your whole hand 06:30:57 money cards let you buy things, property cards are useless but give your deck value, and other cards have CCG-ish things going on 06:31:13 that's about how it works then :P the 10 stacks are chosen from about 25 different cards in the basic set 06:31:17 Do you have to play all your cards, or some of them, or a certain number of them, and do you discard all of them regardless? 06:31:20 so you get a different game depending on what cards you play with 06:31:24 you discard them all regardless 06:31:30 so you go through your deck pretty quickly 06:31:34 and you can't "save up" money or something 06:31:42 it lends a focus towards building a deck that works well with itself 06:31:57 there are cards that can give you more actions, more money, more cards 06:32:05 Interesting idea..... 06:32:11 along with various other stuff, some cards that are sorta like "attacks" 06:32:19 though nothing with hit points 06:32:27 it is quite fun 06:32:37 as for inventing a chess variant, ha, nah 06:33:20 I have invented a few chess variants, including Xorix Shogi, where the pieces powers are XORed by any piece it captures. 06:33:29 (Do you know about shogi? I have a set of shogi pieces and board) 06:33:30 though when i learned about navia dratp, i concocted a half-designed game that was influenced by that, settlers of catan, and uhh, whatever the hell that one OSS turn based strategy game is called 06:33:34 i <3 shogi 06:33:47 wesnoth 06:33:48 that's it 06:33:53 Navia Dratp? Yes I saw them playing it at the anime convention! 06:33:55 i never actually playtested it haha 06:34:08 but i did cut out a bunch of little hexes and sorta design a way to randomize the board! 06:34:16 but it wasn't very effective so i didn't pursue it 06:34:34 also lol @ xored powers 06:34:38 that's pretty interesting actually 06:34:39 -!- augur has joined. 06:34:57 did you revise the movements or just keep them the same? 06:35:58 myndzi: They are mostly kept the same, but see: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSxorixshogi 06:38:20 it would be interesting to see what could become of designing the pieces' basic movements around the concept 06:39:04 myndzi: Yes it might be, perhaps you can try to make a new game based on a similar concept, if you want to. 06:39:15 what happens if a lance captures a pawn? 06:39:33 can it then skip a square? :P 06:39:43 (and also be unable to capture in that square) 06:39:43 Anything capturing a pawn in Xorix Shogi stay as they are. 06:39:59 fine, rook capturing a gold general 06:40:07 It says "All pieces can always move one space straight forward". 06:40:20 i was trying to concoct an example ;p 06:40:30 of how to xor "move one space" with "move any number of spaces" 06:40:46 See this page for some clarification: http://www.chessvariants.org/graphics.dir/xorixshogi/index.html 06:40:47 i read that rule but didn't put 2 and 2 together 06:42:20 Can you play mahjong? I played Washizu Mahjong at the anime convention (just once, though). 06:42:53 lol 06:43:04 did you get your blood drawn? :P 06:43:58 myndzi: No, we didn't do that part. We didn't play for money either. 06:44:28 But we did use all the other rules such as the transparent tiles (some are opaque), and the teams. 06:44:49 hehe 06:45:10 haven't played mahjong yet, but i did watch akagi after someone told me about how the game worked 06:45:17 the transparent tiles thing was actually kinda interesting 06:45:24 i am having trouble understanding the graphics on the page you linked 06:45:36 without having to read up, what's going on here? 06:45:38 presumably a 'leap' is a one space movement? 06:45:44 and a ride is 2 or more 06:46:00 but the images for 0 and 1 are confusing 06:46:09 quintopia: just talking about board games and variants 06:46:22 okieday 06:46:29 zzo38: nevermind, it just occurred to me 06:46:34 Yes, leaps mean one space 06:46:37 And ride is two or more 06:46:43 does anyone need a hug? 06:46:45 it's a bit counterintuitive to have the icons not drawn in the same place every time 06:47:20 I did not draw the icons. I wrote the rules to the game, and then Fergus Duniho made the icons for the pieces. 06:47:40 * myndzi shrugs 06:47:47 it's still a bit counterintuitive seeming at first :P 06:47:50 but now i understand 06:48:24 you know what 06:48:32 oh, nevermind :( 06:48:41 i thought i had a clever way to implement that game with physical pieces 06:49:00 but it wouldn't let you keep the powers of captured pieces 06:49:52 I also invented a chess variant which is extremely unlike chess, it uses a one-dimensional board with 72 cells, unequal armies, 12 kinds of pieces, and no rule of "check"; yet, it is exactly the same as chess. 06:50:04 lolwut 06:52:11 One of the 12 kind of pieces is a neutral kind that belongs to neither player. There are a few kinds of pieces that cannot move, and pieces which change the first time they move, pieces which cause other pieces to change..... 06:52:41 It might seem to be entirely different from chess, but, actually, it is exactly the same as chess!! 06:53:10 Here are the rules in case you want to read it: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSeeeeeeeeeeeeee 06:58:19 ha, that's sorta cheating 06:58:30 it's not REALLY one dimensional ;p 07:00:20 Higher dimensional games can be mapped onto one dimensional boards, and then indicate everything in one dimensional terms. 07:02:42 i guess so 07:03:22 * quintopia challenges myndzi to an m,n,o,p,q,r,k game 07:03:23 * myndzi challenges quintopia to an m,n,o,p,q,r,k game 07:03:41 damn you and your partially scriptedness! 07:03:45 lol. 07:04:02 i don't know what this m,n,o,p,q,r,k is 07:04:17 never heard of an m,n,k game? 07:04:24 also: i try so hard to tempt people to abuse that script by making it obvious but to no avail! 07:04:34 nope :| 07:04:54 aha 07:05:50 The game GIVEAWAY in The CGA Collection is also a chess variant. There are 26 kind of pieces. It is a single-player game, but there are opponent pieces as well, but the opponent pieces have a fixed rule for what they have to do (sort of like the rule in blackjack that the dealer has a fixed rule to play). 07:06:45 If you can capture, you must capture, otherwise you can make a non-capturing move. Opponent's pieces on opponent's turn make all possible captures simultaneously. If you have no legal move or if opponent's pieces are unable to make a capture, then you lose. If you run out of your own pieces, then you win. 07:07:03 interesting 07:07:27 that sounds like a really weird game 07:07:33 what are the rules for capturing? 07:07:55 Rules for capturing are just like in normal chess. 07:08:16 -!- Ilari has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:08:17 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has changed nick to Ilari. 07:08:48 There is a level file containing the boards (which can be of any size), and it is also possible to create your own levels, that you might even ask someone else to solve. 07:09:33 zzo38: what are the rules for the other side? 07:10:40 quintopia: The rules for opponent's pieces are that on opponent's turn, opponent's pieces make all possible captures simultaneously. If a piece can capture multiple other pieces, copies are created in all of those positions. If multiple opponent pieces of different kind try to move to the same position, it turns into a question mark, which cannot move or capture at all. 07:12:25 zzo38: so the opponent pieces do not move if they cannot caputre, or if it is not clear which piece should do the capturing? 07:13:18 quintopia: No, if multiple opponent's pieces can do the capturing, they *all* do, simultaneously, and if they are not all of the same kind, they turn into a question mark. 07:13:33 -!- Ilari has changed nick to Ilari_antrcomp. 07:13:39 For your own pieces, you can make only one move (or capture) each turn, no simultaneous moves allowed. 07:14:02 -!- Ilari has joined. 07:14:11 If there are no possible ways that the opponent's pieces can capture any of your own pieces, then you lose the game. 07:14:33 zzo38: what does a question mark do when it forms? 07:14:57 occupies space forever? 07:15:07 can it be captured? 07:15:19 quintopia: It can be captured. It is just a piece with no moves. 07:16:35 what is CGA? 07:16:55 quintopia: Color Graphics Adapter? 07:17:17 i'm asking zzo38 07:17:33 quintopia: Yes, it is Color Graphics Adapter. 07:17:56 why? 07:18:50 quintopia: Why what? Why does CGA stand for that? 07:19:03 * pikhq tried to watch Repo! The Genetic Opera today. The music was terrible. 07:19:30 zzo38: no i mean, why does somethign named that have a collection of games? 07:19:39 Bad operatic music is cringe-inducing. Absolutely, positively cringe-inducing. 07:20:56 quintopia: Rather, the collection of the games has the title "The CGA Collection", and they all have certain things in common, one of them being that all of them use either 40x25 text mode with sixteen colors, or 320x200 graphics mode with four colors. 07:21:58 zzo38: is CGA a company? did they develop these games? 07:22:28 quintopia: No. CGA is just the name of the graphics adapter. I programmed all of these games myself. 07:24:03 I did not actually *invent* all of the games myself, though, but I did invent some, and even some of the ones that I did not invent, these implementations have some extra features or something else. 07:24:25 All the sound/music in the SKEDALS game is Bohlen-Pierce. 07:26:32 And I did in fact invent a game with ten billion levels. 07:26:42 lokl 07:26:59 so these games only work if you have said graphics adapter? 07:27:51 quintopia: No, modern graphics adapters can usually emulate the CGA. And even if they don't, you can use DOSBOX or something like that. 07:28:16 (CGA is a very old graphics adapter.) 07:28:30 ah 07:28:48 so one needs dosbox or some other kind of dos emulator then? 07:28:50 -!- lament has joined. 07:28:54 to run on linux for instance? 07:29:35 Yes, to run on Linux you do need a DOS emulator. 07:29:57 ah 07:38:43 The COLORSPI game is a sort of puzzle game and action game. Your piece is the spider. There are green backgrounds and black backgrounds, and then there are walls. There are also seven colors of balls and seven colors of webs. And there is a time limit! 07:39:29 If a ball touches a spider, touches a web of a different color than the ball, or touches another ball, then you lose. 07:40:02 Webs of different colors are not allowed to cross each other. 07:43:20 You have limited number of webs of each color, at each level. Some colors of webs can be cut and some cannot be cut. 07:44:09 If a ball touches a web of the same color of the ball, the ball remains there (you can still lose if other balls collide with it), and it is safe for a spider to touch it and then it is removed. Once all balls are removed in this way, the goal apperas. 07:44:24 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 07:44:49 You have to reach the goal also within the time limit, and sometimes you might have to make sure to plan ahead correctly such that you *can* reach the goal! (Some levels have no balls, in which case the goal is visible from the start.) 07:45:30 Webs can be created on black backgrounds only (and it is the only way for a spider to move across black backgrounds). Green backgrounds can contain no webs but can be moved across freely. 07:45:51 There are also a few other kind of objects, some of which can be pushed, and which work only on green backgrounds. 07:46:49 Do you like this idea? 07:47:33 how should i know? 07:48:41 quintopia: Just guess, perhaps? Or make question/comment? 07:49:19 quintopia: Yes, it is Color Graphics Adapter. <-- s/Adapter/Array/ 07:49:42 GreaseMonkey: No, it is "Adapter". VGA is Video Graphics Array. 07:49:48 hmmkay 07:51:03 Boxes and slanted lines can be pushed around on green areas (they cannot be pushed into black space, it is like there is a wall there). Balls touching boxes cause you to lose. Balls touching slanted lines are deflected. 07:51:33 And then, there is one kind of piece which can be pushed like the box, except that it can be pushed into a black space to make it green. 07:52:04 And there is a sign that changes into a wall after anything passes over it. 07:53:46 This is how the game works! 07:55:04 if i ever get a chance to try the game out, i'll let you know if it's any good 07:56:29 OK 07:58:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Good day. This was *not* the Spanish Inquisition speaking, nor was it your boss's sister, despite any rumors you may have heard (or not heard).). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:08 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 08:15:07 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:15:12 -!- coppro has joined. 08:15:12 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host). 08:15:13 -!- coppro has joined. 08:25:41 -!- olsner has joined. 08:28:56 so who is here this late? 08:29:13 moi 08:29:45 meh. you're just a userscript engine for firefox. i'm looking for people. 08:30:25 Late? 10:30 here. 08:30:35 (AM) 08:31:43 so, like, ozland? 08:31:48 nzland 08:31:52 ah 08:33:33 10:30 is 7 hours ahead of me, which doesn't seem quite far enough to be new zealand 08:33:43 in fact, i though india was 7.5 hours ahead 08:34:28 bah, international channels should all have timezone-bots. 08:37:52 late? it's early, I just got up 08:38:44 Filand here. 08:39:02 Finland? 08:39:16 okay, that makes more sense 08:39:19 Yes, but I thought we were using those 2-char country codes. 08:39:28 FI-land 08:40:10 http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png -- now with more zzo38, whose weirdness unfortunately makes other people get more overlappy than in esomapn.png. 08:41:57 is this a map of when peoples are in this channel? 08:43:17 that doesn't seem right 08:43:19 wtf is it? 08:43:57 No, it's a map of two first PCA components out of 60 writing-style related features. 08:44:21 first two singular values? 08:44:29 what's the feature set? 08:44:57 also, can i be on it? 08:45:08 http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png -- that has some of the more interesting features. 08:45:41 I have to leave in ten minutes and get dressed before that, so don't have time for replotting right now, otherwise yes. 08:46:11 is capitalization at beginning of sentences a feature? 08:46:18 fizzie is teh big words man 08:46:18 http://zem.fi/~fis/test12.png -- this one is channel activity per time-of-day (Finnish time). 08:46:49 looks about like every channel i've been in 08:47:07 It might be, I'm not sure. The feature set was originally designed for book author classification though, and everything's capitalized properly there. 08:47:29 http://zem.fi/~fis/test12r.png -- same thing normalized. 08:47:36 Now I really must be going. 08:47:51 agagaga 08:48:20 alise posts a third of the messages pretty much around the clock 08:48:26 just as i would have guessed 08:54:42 Yeah, like the saying goes, "evil never sleeps". 08:55:21 shhh, don't wake it up 08:55:38 hey fizzie are you familiar at all with entscheidungsproblem? 09:00:18 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:00:47 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 09:25:26 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow). 09:29:49 man, people that take their foul moods out on other people suck 10:00:59 hallooooooo 10:02:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:09:40 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:16:17 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 10:22:13 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:34:22 -!- tombom has joined. 10:54:31 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:54:36 -!- nooga has joined. 11:16:51 -!- cheater99 has joined. 11:18:29 alise, fizzie, oerjan: http://sprunge.us/CdUU 11:18:33 heh 11:19:37 what's the purpose of doing that anyway? 11:19:48 does he want his lines in the logs to be easier to find? 11:20:27 quintopia, no, that is him saying stuff like "oerjan swats alise -----###" (he uses his flyswatter) 11:20:35 I guess it is some kind of in-joke .P 11:20:39 s/\./:/ 11:20:50 oh 11:20:59 i would never have recognized that as a flyswatter 11:25:00 quintopia, what about ===\__/ then? 11:25:13 no idea what that is 11:25:21 a pan? 11:25:45 he hits people with pans/ 11:25:48 that sicko! 11:27:59 quintopia, again an in-joke :P 11:28:12 and yeah, a saucepan 11:29:09 let's see who laughs when i hit HIM with a pan. 11:29:42 quintopia, ah but then you would have to steal it or get him to lend it to you (since there is only one pan) 11:30:41 Vorpal: then what was that you just posted above? did you, *gasp* MAKE YOUR OWN PAN? 11:31:01 quintopia, no it was not in a /me, so it didn't count 11:31:12 oh okay 11:31:13 thus I was quoting him 11:31:19 plus* 11:31:26 so two reasons it didn't count 11:31:34 well, you know 11:31:38 he's not here right now 11:31:46 so he wouldn't notice if i uh... 11:31:49 * quintopia nabs the pan 11:31:52 mwahahahaha! 11:31:55 -!- sftp has joined. 11:34:07 quintopia, he is not in the channel atm, how would that be possible? 11:35:10 if he's not here, then he's not paying attention to his virtual pan 11:35:17 also, you don't have to highlight me every few lines 11:35:19 there's no one else here 11:36:28 ah indeed, a bad habit 11:36:36 I'm used to high traffic channels 11:48:24 you were the fin right? 11:48:26 or 11:48:28 norway? 11:54:22 oerjan is from Norway. I'm from Sweden 11:54:36 and there are quite a few from .fi (plus two more from .se) 11:55:58 oh okay 11:56:08 hard to keep you norsemen straight 11:56:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:00:34 Quite a few more than two more swedes, I think 12:04:10 are you another one? 12:11:38 okay, so, like, bedtime and stuff 12:33:15 FireFly, I only know of you and olsner apart from me? 12:33:26 FireFly, who else? 12:33:47 BeholdMyGlory is here from time to time, also MigoMipo 12:33:52 They're not here atm though 12:33:56 ah 12:50:31 ooh, more swedes 12:52:17 sqlite> select * from logs where serial > 869850 and serial < 869870; 12:52:17 869851|2009-10-25 01:02:32|FireFly|||5|"Later" 12:52:17 869852|2009-10-25 00:04:14|oerjan|||0|eek backwards time travel! 12:52:24 indeed 12:52:48 hmm, time to go vote then 12:53:50 olsner, Jag förtidsröstade 12:53:58 FireFly, I hope you vote too. 12:54:47 Of course 12:55:02 good 12:55:07 after voting, back to scheme in haskell in 48h 13:07:13 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:40:15 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 13:40:21 -!- distant_figure has joined. 13:40:21 -!- distant_figure has quit (Client Quit). 13:43:27 http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapf.png -- okay, that's a lot less pretty sight. (Here each x represents 2000 consecutive messages, and it's again PCA dims 1/2 out of the same features as before.) 13:44:37 -!- alise has joined. 13:45:13 fizzie, does python have any built in class or such for a circular buffer? 13:45:45 I need to keep some sort of sliding window when matching up own/clog 13:45:54 to handle out order issues 13:46:17 You're not saying "yarr" enough. 13:47:21 alise, oh is it that day today? 13:47:24 Vorpal: I don't think there is a built-in type for that, but there's the "buffer" object that can represent a slice out of an array. 13:47:57 fizzie, not sure I want to put the entire db into an array :P 13:49:13 Vorpal: Indeed; also, you are marked as away. 13:50:03 There's the queue class, but it's more about being thread-safely synchronized. (You could use two queues and pop off the end all the messages that are older than your threshold. 13:50:33 Oh, right, there's a deque in "collections". 13:51:22 You can even specify a maximum length to the deque and it will automatically drop items from one end when you put new stuff into the other. 13:53:29 hm 13:53:42 fizzie, yes that seems usable 13:58:02 fizzie, I wrote up some code to create a number of known matching points btw 13:58:55 fizzie, I'm sure there is a better way than http://sprunge.us/BUEj but it seems to work 13:59:34 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:59:34 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:00:16 -!- nooga has joined. 14:02:58 Sounds like someone (accidentally or not) repeating his message within a short period of time would be a bit problematic for completely unconstrained matching; I guess taking the earliest match always and then removing it from consideration for later ones would handle that, though. 14:04:06 fizzie, yes indeed, but that code was just to find known good pairs, and I first got dups but then I got like every ":D" matched up to every other :D within 1 minute 14:04:21 fizzie, the length(body) > 10 seems to have fixed 14:04:30 and there were no other dup pairs there 14:04:54 I guess it is not so often someone repeats a very long message completely exactly. 14:04:57 I guess it is not so often someone repeats a very long message completely exactly. 14:05:04 "Whoops." 14:05:06 indeed :P 14:05:20 fizzie, and indeed it isn't and it would as far as I can tell show up twice there 14:06:45 Vorpal: your /msg notifications suck :) 14:06:53 alise, hm? 14:06:59 oh hah 14:07:01 fizzie, does python have a two-way dict? 14:07:12 fizzie, like equally fast to look up by key and value 14:07:12 Vorpal: does a buffer just appear silently or something 14:07:19 fizzie, does python have a two-way dict? ;; no but trivial to code one 14:07:20 with two dicts 14:07:43 alise, yeah, but I hoped to avoid that work, and also if it had it, doing the two-dict solution would be a bad case of NIH 14:07:53 as far as i know, there is no package for it. 14:07:55 writing code is not NIH. 14:09:03 class BiDict(object): 14:09:03 def __init__(self, to, fro): 14:09:03 self.to = to 14:09:03 self.fro = fro 14:09:17 done 14:09:19 foo.to[x] 14:09:21 foo.fro[y] 14:10:22 I assume you might want to have something where a single call would add in both dicts. 14:11:10 Yes, true. 14:11:42 fizzie, I checked the values with a simple select serial,tstamp,body from irc.logs where body in (select body from irc.logs where serial in ( < long list here > )) order by body; and the only "dupe" was "my brain hurts" from 2007 and 2009, thus not within the critical interval :P 14:12:37 and that was said by different persons 14:12:43 -!- sshc has joined. 14:13:24 fizzie: Vorpal: what would it take to convince you two to give me your full #esoteric logs sometime? 14:13:30 see, obviously botte has to have the most complete logs ever 14:13:37 so i need to merge all of them. clearly. 14:14:15 alise, a lot, since there could be private info in them, due to being xchat logs for several years 14:14:23 so stuff like /msg nickserv went to log of current window 14:14:40 Vorpal: Obviously, I would want those filtered out. :P 14:15:04 alise, thus: never going to happen. And due to the ambiguity discussed before with * I do not trust filtering. Like "* You have been invited to #secret-channel" 14:15:27 alise, I could perhaps filter only join/part/quit/msg, and leave out all CTCP ACTION or such 14:15:35 that should be reasonably safe 14:15:38 I don't mind all /mes of that form being filtered out. Also, knowing the name of a secret channel is hardling devastating. 14:15:55 Oh, I'm very cheap, I think I could part with my logs with just a five- or six-digit sum of euros. 14:15:59 Vorpal: Hmm. Well, if I can get logs of fizzie I suppose I could use his to merge in /mes. 14:16:02 Darn. 14:16:11 alise, hah 14:16:12 fizzie: Don't you see it's for science? 14:16:25 alise, clog is reasonably complete 14:16:36 Vorpal: clog has quite regular outages. 14:16:44 also it was fun writing parsing for znc buffer playback 14:16:44 there are huge swathes of logs missing in which good discussion has taken place 14:16:57 furthermore, its timechanges are problematic 14:16:57 however due to the +- thing at start of messages it is sometimes ambig 14:17:12 like when my irc client didn't yet know it was in that prefix-mode 14:17:21 or when we were not yet in it 14:17:21 I can dump something out from the postgres db, after some sanity checks; I think they should be mostly safe. 14:17:29 for example I know a few will be incorrectly parsed 14:17:59 like [10:11:12] +--[>+ ... 14:18:03 I saw a few such cases 14:18:24 fizzie: The postgres DB is clog logs, is it not? 14:18:25 where it is ambig if it is + as in "id with services" or not 14:18:44 alise, no it's his personal logs 14:18:49 as he said before 14:19:19 fizzie: I'm not sure how dumping a Postgres DB is any less safe than simply running the logs through the filter that got them in there in the first place? 14:19:31 alise, anyway logs from late yesterday and onwards should be reasonably simple to filter 14:20:01 [...] (Also, I consider the terms "first name" and "last name" racist, but that's not the point.) [...] 14:22:22 alise, eh what 14:22:52 Presumably because in a lot of, for example, Asian cultures, the "last" name is listed first. 14:23:22 "Kim Jong-Il" is actually "Jong-Il Kim" in our ordering. 14:24:12 class deque(__builtin__.object) 14:24:12 | deque(iterable[, maxlen]) --> deque object 14:24:24 and nowhere can I find docs what iterable does exactly 14:24:26 or the type 14:24:28 I guess a bool 14:24:30 Yes you can. 14:24:31 Wrong. 14:24:47 alise, not in help(collections.deque) at least? 14:24:59 http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=iterable+python 14:25:01 5. Built-in Types — Python v2.7 documentation 14:25:02 Python defines several iterator objects to support iteration over general and specific sequence types, dictionaries, and other more specialized forms. ... 14:25:03 PEP 234 -- Iterators - Python 14:25:03 30 Jan 2001 ... (Due to a misunderstanding in the original text of this PEP, in Python 2.2, all iterator types implemented a next() method that was ... 14:26:13 alise: Because the filter can only output to postgres at the moment, so it's easier to dump. No safer, of course. 14:26:20 Anyway, busy with other stuff now. 14:27:08 class collections.deque([iterable[, maxlen]])¶ 14:27:09 Returns a new deque object initialized left-to-right (using append()) with data from iterable. If iterable is not specified, the new deque is empty. 14:27:10 ah 14:27:12 from the web site 14:27:19 alise, a lot more helpful than the built in help 14:27:24 which is a pity 14:27:48 Vorpal: the built-in help is not documentation 14:27:51 alise, anyway, I presume deque(None,10) should work... (I need the second parameter, but not the first) 14:27:52 it is a quick reference tool 14:28:01 the actual documentation, i.e. the manual, is the only official reference. 14:28:09 Vorpal: deque(maxlen=10) 14:28:10 duh 14:28:15 oh okay 14:29:02 00:40:10 http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png -- now with more zzo38, whose weirdness unfortunately makes other people get more overlappy than in esomapn.png. 14:29:03 :D 14:29:12 * Everyone backs away slowly from zzo38 14:29:32 I have collided with the GregorR nebula. 14:29:43 It looks like everyone's being time dilated! NO! THE TACHYONS! 14:30:21 "The hull is collapsing!" "Send out a message on all channels! Even that secret channel we never use and that serviced as a deus ex machina three episodes ago! ZZO38--IS--A--BLACK--HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO[static]" 14:30:30 [credits] 14:30:45 Thank you, thank you, no need to crowd, you can stop clapping now. 14:31:48 00:47:51 agagaga 14:31:49 00:48:20 alise posts a third of the messages pretty much around the clock 14:31:49 00:48:26 just as i would have guessed 14:31:55 And almost half the messages in total... mwahahaha. 14:33:14 fizzie, you are about as far out as zzo (in a different direction though) 14:34:02 Less tight though. 14:34:11 Vorpal: No, not true. 14:34:14 fizzie is quite close to cpressey. 14:34:19 zzo38 is much further away from everyone else. 14:34:23 hm 14:34:33 I think fizzie's position may be largely due to zzo38 pushing him away. 14:34:49 can I remove arbitrary values in the middle of a dequeue 14:35:05 Double-ended. 14:35:07 Queue. 14:35:12 hrrm 14:35:15 So: no. Not unless Python's doing something screwy. 14:35:18 del q[n] might work. 14:35:22 But I doubt it has q[n]. 14:35:32 Actually it wouldn't be del q[n]. 14:35:36 More like q.remove_at(n) or something. 14:35:38 Maybe. 14:35:39 Dunno. 14:35:53 I have an algorithm pretty much worked out but the sliding window data data type needs to act as a queue but with easy removing in the middle (when we match up an out of order element) 14:36:08 hrrm 14:36:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 14:36:28 | remove(...) 14:36:28 | D.remove(value) -- remove first occurrence of value. 14:36:31 it has that though 14:37:10 04:53:50 olsner, Jag förtidsröstade 14:37:16 why do you randomly talk in swedish to the swedes 14:37:20 (also, before you say anything, blame clog) 14:37:52 alise, because I don't have a clue what it is called in English 14:37:58 pre-vote sounds so strange 14:38:12 "I voted early", just like Google translates it. 14:38:45 well, it's a completely different procedure though 14:39:07 indeed 14:39:21 it's not just voting earlier, it's making your vote before the actual voting starts in a special way 14:39:30 indeed 14:39:41 alise, so the translation fails to convey the correct info 14:39:52 s/info/meaning/ 14:40:02 So? 14:40:04 It's still called that. 14:40:16 "I early voted", if you're willing to trade flow with a bit more meaning. 14:40:21 early-voted, maybe. 14:40:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_voting 14:40:32 We just call it voting early, though. 14:40:39 You silly overly-precise Swedes. 14:41:12 actually hm ordereddict with size limit might work better 14:41:16 could emulate that manually 14:42:24 um, no dupes 14:42:26 so won't work 14:52:06 Vorpal: make a fucking class. 14:57:51 alise, yeah been doing that for several minutes 14:57:58 before you said it 14:58:22 alise, what is the python format spec thingy for tuples? Like %s or %d for string/integer 14:58:34 You should just use %s. 14:58:38 ah 14:58:45 Vorpal: even for %d, %s is usually used 14:58:49 Or %r, I guess, for __repr__. 14:58:52 But for tuples that's the same. 14:59:10 right 14:59:20 "TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting"? huh 14:59:26 I used %s 14:59:28 hm 14:59:32 could try %r 14:59:33 show your code 14:59:39 i think i know what's wrong 14:59:41 but i need to see the line 14:59:43 def dump_lines(ol, cl): 14:59:43 print " Own: %s" % ol 14:59:43 print "Clog: %s" % cl 14:59:46 fail 14:59:46 oh right 14:59:46 () 14:59:47 If you have only one tuple it'll try to use its contents 14:59:48 what does % take? 14:59:51 (ol,) (cl,) 14:59:53 true 14:59:57 Vorpal: for debug just use + :P 15:00:02 print 'Own: ' + ol 15:00:05 print 'Clog: ' + cl 15:00:33 alise, well ol is a tuple containing a datetime object amongst other things 15:00:38 would + magically handle that? 15:00:41 yes. 15:00:50 it would do str(ol) which == repr(ol) 15:00:59 ugh %s with datetime formats non-nicely, oh well 15:01:12 it formats non-nicely with everything 15:02:07 hah true 15:02:24 er i meant 15:02:33 everything formats non-nicely with repr() 15:02:50 what you need is an object inspector! 15:03:02 [Suddenly, your monitor goes blank. BONG! "Welcome to aliseOS."] 15:06:07 alise, you mean like in genera? 15:06:10 or squeak 15:06:23 Or in aliseOS, which has something like that but SO MUCH BETTER. 15:07:20 hm it got the first 313 events by the fast simplistic algorithm (which just matches up line pairs from the db), now to enable the more complex sliding window one 15:19:07 -!- Sgeo|web has joined. 15:19:27 I really don't want to eat breakfast in this house 15:20:09 what 15:24:49 The flies (or maybe that's the wrong term)... 15:28:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:31:29 hi ais523 15:33:10 hi 15:33:29 update on my compression algo: it's better than bzip2 but almost certainly worse than lzma, except on very repetitive files 15:33:35 and thus it doesn't have much of a reason to exist 15:37:14 Is lzma patented?\\ 15:37:26 That's a good reason for your algo to exist 15:38:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:38:29 -!- EOF has joined. 15:39:05 I feel like I asked a stupid question 15:40:58 I do not completely understand what the http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.pnghttp://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png is plotting, it says "map of two first PCA components out of 60 writing-style related features" but I do not know what that means. 15:41:54 alise: start writing aliseOS plz 15:42:21 nooga: Can I have a research grant? 15:42:51 Sgeo|web: LZMA is not patented. 15:42:55 ais523: you could TWEAK IT!!!11 15:43:11 ais523: also, it may be significantly faster than LZMA 15:43:12 I was for days on end 15:43:15 which would be a very good idea 15:43:29 and most of the tweaks slowed it down, but it doesn't lose too much to remove most of them 15:43:40 http://snarxiv.org/vs-arxiv/ ;; Which paper title is real, which is rubbish? 15:43:44 Difficult! 15:43:50 The real papers are just so ridiculous. 15:43:56 (http://snarxiv.org/ random stream of rubbish) 15:44:16 without the weird tweaking, it's O(n log n) with relatively low constant factors 15:44:28 ais523: that sounds pretty good 15:44:34 what's the real-time speeds you're getting? 15:44:35 also, it heapsorts linked lists. twice 15:44:35 Like, in that graph, what is the X axis mean, what does the Y axis mean, and what does everything else mean? 15:44:43 ais523: er -- not mergesort? 15:44:45 alise: I'm not sure, because it's overloaded with slow tweaks atm 15:44:57 ais523: plug in a mergesort :P 15:44:58 alise: well, I needed to implement a priority queue 15:45:08 low-hanging fruit etc. 15:45:15 and because I had the priority queue code already, it was trivial to make it into a heapsort 15:45:33 and heapsort and mergesort are equally fast in terms of computational order, heapsort often has better performance in practice 15:46:31 ais523: on linked lists? 15:46:36 that may be true for arrays 15:46:52 I'm not sure about on linked lists 15:47:07 it's not like mergesort isn't a trivial algorithm 15:47:24 heapsort isn't that bad either 15:47:42 i'm trying to help you find a niche for your admittedly-now-useless algorithm, stop complaining 15:47:45 one advantage of the heapsort is that the natural expression of it is iterative rather than recursive 15:47:46 :p 15:47:49 heh 15:48:06 oh, decompression's O(n), which is nice 15:48:14 but I think lzma decompresses pretty fast too 15:48:18 http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/algorithms/listsort.html has a complete pseudocode mergesort that, though i haven't read it, seems to be optimised for doing it iteratively on a linked list 15:48:33 ais523: how much more %s of compression do you get from the slow tweaks? 15:48:36 Do you know quantum bogosort? The algorithm is this: [1] Arrange the files at random. [2] If it is sorted, stop. [3] If it is not sorted, destroy the entire universe. 15:48:50 "A perl script com piles the gram mar file into OCaml code (snarxiv.ml):" ;; Dear god. 15:48:57 *compiles *grammar; dunno why that happened. 15:49:09 Oh, ­ hyphens, I think. 15:49:13 alise: less than 1%, which is what's annoying me so much 15:49:18 they looked really good on paper 15:49:36 ais523: then get rid of them, stick a mergesort in, and rewrite it in C if it isn't already 15:49:39 (is it in Java?) 15:49:42 it's in C 15:49:50 why would I write it in Java 15:50:02 dunno, you seem to be using the language for things, inexplicably 15:50:05 the main reason it's in C is because I was doing a bunch of pointer manipulation 15:50:16 alise: well, it's my job, that's a reason to be familiar with it 15:50:22 and I only have one major project in Java 15:50:26 ha, from the same guy as snarXiv: http://davidsd.org/theorem/ 15:50:28 Write it in Enhanced CWEB, and then make a book of it. 15:50:29 random theorem generator 15:50:43 zzo38: I don't think this compressor is begging to be a book... 15:51:27 my roguelike dynamic routing algorithm is much more deserving of a paper, because that one's actually useful 15:51:32 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:51:34 I should write it down mathematically sometime 15:52:15 ais523: Then write that roguelike algorithm in Enhanced CWEB and make *that* one a book. 15:52:23 but Enhanced CWEB is utterly insane... 15:52:39 (You can mix C codes with normal mathematical equations as well, if it is necessary) 15:53:17 alise: You think it is insane? Maybe it is insane but I find it useful. I like to use it to write C programs with. 15:53:28 what I actually did with the routing algo was to make it into a YouTube video 15:53:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udCNcoIfYIc 15:53:41 ais523: YouTube, the future of mathematical journals. 15:53:44 * ais523 waits for alise to not believe me because it's so far out of character for me 15:53:54 I actually have Flash so I checked. 15:54:02 ais523: Why doesn't TAEB play with DECgraphics and colours? Sheesh! 15:54:11 A video? It would be better as a text, isn't it? 15:54:15 it does play with colors 15:54:19 but it doesn't show them on its debug screen 15:54:23 ais523: Pathetic. 15:54:30 because colors are used for something else there 15:54:35 zzo38: he /could/ have published a termcast, but... 15:54:38 well, a ttyrec 15:54:39 whatever 15:54:58 ais523: TAEB can think faster and better than me, I feel kind of inadequate 15:55:09 I have a strong urge to eliminate the competition. 15:55:12 it's actually slower than most humans 15:55:21 Well gee, that just makes me feel even better. 15:55:48 alise: Even as a termcast or ttyrec, I think a paper could better explain it, especially if you wrote it in Enhanced CWEB (but even a normal text could do). 15:56:05 zzo38: It's just a video of it in action!! 15:56:08 well, I made the video by pointing a screen capture program at ipbt 15:56:11 ais523: So what sense of routing is being used here? 15:56:16 I'm not entirely sure what you coded. 15:56:33 alise: it's a straightforward shortest-path routing algorithm 15:56:46 "The terminal emulator used is the one from the PuTTY SSH client (simply because that's the one whose API I was most familiar with)." ;; conveniently not mentioning he wrote it 15:56:59 ais523: what's special about it -- works on terrain you don't entirely know? 15:57:04 but it's caching a) between turns, even if the goal and the player have moved; b) allowing for changes in the map 15:57:09 right 15:57:18 so it's much faster than running Dijkstra or A* on the sort of workloads TAEB::AI::Player needs 15:57:19 so is Planar better than main TAEB yet? 15:57:55 no in terms of raw score, yes in most other respects 15:57:55 but I haven't worked on it for over a year now 15:57:57 btw, when the whole map flashes green or blue, it's using a different algo 15:58:10 also, I find your YouTube video inadequate; re-upload it with at least 1080p resolution! 15:58:26 either because there are monsters around, which change the caches too quickly for them to be useful 15:58:28 4096p if possible 15:58:50 or because there's just been a major update and it's faster to recalculate from scratch than to diff 15:58:51 ais523: does TAEB ever use gX? 15:58:55 or CtrlX? 15:59:07 to move 15:59:17 no, but it uses travel when moving four or more spaces in known terrain 15:59:25 also, what level of the dungeon is this? the display doesn't say 15:59:29 unless D:2D means something 15:59:31 bottom-left, it does 15:59:37 2nd level, dungeons 15:59:40 ah 16:00:52 http://undergrad.davidsd.org/theorem/applications.html ;; haha (the author of the random theorem generator getting a princeton student to nod his head along to the rubbish) 16:02:18 ais523: are you a licensed NIH Therapist? 16:02:32 i feel a horrible urge to make a new OS and a new language again... 16:02:36 NIH = Not Invented Here? or National Institute of Health? 16:02:40 former 16:02:55 well, doing something yourself for fun makes sense 16:03:17 nonono, I have a deep, unflinching belief that everything sucks 16:03:21 and that i can do so much better 16:03:27 but if you're doing something for someone else, it helps to try to make sure it's better than the existing alternatives, and basing it on them makes sense 16:03:47 jettyplay came out of a belief that all existing ttyrec player sucked; it's not finished yet, but I think it's better than all the competition already 16:03:56 now I've finally tracked down all the known memory leaks 16:04:02 ais523: at least your project is small 16:04:14 my language is probably not even implementable efficiently with current CS knowledge! 16:04:16 yep, and the competition not only finite, but verifiably so 16:04:43 * alise jibbers 16:04:46 * alise shakes 16:04:58 Explain how Enhanced CWEB is insane, in your opinion. 16:05:01 hmm, apparently the maker of I Wanna Be The Fangame is one of the only two people to have ever completed the original 16:05:09 zzo38: i'm not sure, it just ... us 16:05:09 that sort-of makes sense, although I wouldn't have expected it 16:05:10 *is 16:05:16 (completed the original on highest difficulty, that is) 16:05:17 ais523: no, more than one person has completed the actual one 16:05:19 maybe that's old info 16:05:23 it's in the double digits 16:05:30 i forget exactly how many 16:05:31 well, I was only aware of two 16:05:35 but that's good to know 16:05:38 ais523: i /think/ 16:05:39 i may be wrong 16:05:54 the general consensus seems to be that once you get used to it, you can just memorise all the levels and complete it 16:06:06 since i guess you can adjust to the insane bastard-physics 16:06:25 grr Intel 16:06:45 I wonder if they've actually put virtualisation support on my chip 16:06:47 but just locked it out? 16:06:50 I agree with that, I think 16:06:59 it's memorisation + steady hand platforming 16:07:10 "Modern laptops by Sony use, instead of a BIOS, a new approach called EFI." ;; I did not know this. 16:07:16 Sony laptops are on a collision-course with Apple. 16:07:23 I think they will release the exact same model within three years. 16:08:44 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:09:17 nobody loves my poor U4100 processor 16:09:29 with its 1.3 GHz speed and its 2 MiB cache 16:09:36 model name: Genuine Intel(R) CPU U4100 @ 1.30GHz 16:09:37 cpu MHz: 1200.000 16:09:39 guess it's downclocked itself 16:10:49 due to overheating, or thinking it is? 16:11:06 hmm, you have pretty much the same sort of laptop as me, don't you? 16:11:09 or maybe it's just bored 16:11:18 ais523: all modern laptops downclock when not under load 16:11:19 try rapping it a few times just beyond the top-left corner of the keyboard 16:11:22 to conserve battery 16:11:25 and fan 16:11:34 sometimes the fan gets stuck, and doing that frees it up 16:11:38 my fan has never got stuck :P 16:11:44 it's not a bug that it's downclocked 16:11:52 also, i think this laptop may be better-built than yours, being bigger and more expensive 16:11:54 although essentially the same 16:12:02 one would think the greater internal spreadout would leave less room for jamming fans 16:12:22 actually sometimes the fan on this goes off altogether because the cpu isn't even generating enough heat to be worth it 16:12:55 * alise downloads the NixOS live CD 16:13:08 Purely functional package and configuration management, it's gotta be better than the rest, right? 16:13:12 (Linux distro) 16:13:16 "sometimes"? 16:13:21 the fan on this is /usually/ off altogether 16:13:24 ais523: well, me too 16:13:26 while it's spinning, it doesn't get stuck 16:13:30 but i often have like 16:13:33 it's when it tries to turn on that the problem happens 16:13:35 10 windows open 16:13:38 with 7 browsers 16:13:40 and 30 tabs in each browser 16:13:43 well, not that extreme 16:13:46 but you get my point 16:13:51 and switching windows is... 16:13:53 a bit taxing 16:13:57 (never slow, but you can tell it's working) 16:15:34 tabs don't use CPU, though, do they? just memory? 16:15:42 unless they're trying to run Flash or something silly like that? 16:15:53 well, no 16:16:01 i'm not sure *why* switching windows causes it to work a bit more if you have a lot of them 16:16:03 come to think of it 16:16:05 i may be imagining it 16:16:13 my relation with computers is very... superstitious 16:16:30 i don't quite trust that they're actually doing something reasonable when i ask them to do something, because they're told to do *so* *much* stuff 16:17:13 -!- nooga has left (?). 16:17:13 -!- nooga has joined. 16:17:17 -!- nooga has left (?). 16:17:21 404 Not Found 16:17:22 I'm very sorry, but the following error(s) occurred: 16:17:22 Product /nix/store/l3q29m17x8sdribzmnz9lr1kg2l7hic4-nixos-manual/share/doc/nixos has disappeared. 16:17:24 -!- nooga has joined. 16:17:26 Well that's not very purely functional, is it? 16:20:28 ais523: I had a strange language idea where modules were actually Erlang-style processes. 16:20:40 And f(x) was just an object, Prolog-style. 16:20:42 So you did 16:20:53 io<-stdout<-print("Hello, world!\n") 16:20:57 Prolog has objects? 16:21:02 And f(x) was just an object, Prolog-style. 16:21:05 like in Prolog 16:21:07 you can say 16:21:13 predicate(print("Hello, world!\n")) 16:21:16 and it's just an object 16:21:19 you know what i mean 16:21:21 in the Scheme sense 16:21:22 value 16:21:23 entity 16:21:28 inert thing 16:24:09 ah, ok 16:24:15 I think "term" is the "official" term for that 16:24:38 I love the way it's entirely possible to use, say, 3-4 as an inert piece of data 16:24:40 "term" usually means "expression". Sometimes. 16:24:41 http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2010/09/shorter-words-for-expression.html 16:24:54 erm 16:24:56 arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2010/09/shorter-words-for-expression.html 16:25:04 because although it means '-'(3,4), it isn't interpreted as arithmetic unless you actually try to evaluate it as an arithmetic expression 16:25:32 ais523: yeah 16:25:37 but yeah, that's the idea I had 16:25:47 you could also have things like, I don't know, a receiver for a socket 16:25:49 which would end up having 16:25:56 receiver <- "packet" 16:25:59 as opposed to a function call 16:26:04 I guess it was some sort of unification, but. 16:26:42 (Arcane Sentiment is an excellent blog, btw.) 16:27:27 http://snarxiv.org/ 16:27:32 this is extreely fun 16:27:39 Extreely. 16:27:44 extremely funny 16:27:45 http://snarxiv.org/vs-arxiv/ is funner. 16:33:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:33:33 ais523: how much RAM does your laptop have? 16:33:42 I'm not sure offhand 16:33:53 enough that Windows 7 actually manages to start, eventually 16:33:54 although I don't run it nowadays 16:34:31 $(free -m), Mem - total :P 16:34:36 that's not minus 16:38:56 2891 me{ga|bi}bytes 16:39:10 not entirely sure which unit it's using 16:39:16 bi, almost certainly. 16:39:22 should i make something like http://snarxiv.org/vs-arxiv/ for prolog bits? 16:39:26 ais523: I have closer to 4 GiB. But the funny thing is, I find it hard to believe. 16:39:43 Because my CPU has quite a low GHz, and... well... it's so small! So small! and my desktops all have less memory... 16:39:49 I keep thinking I don't have 4 GiBs to play around with 16:39:52 and worry about allocating too much to VMs 16:40:38 wow, I forgot how ugly 16-bit colour is with modern UIs 16:40:49 they try and use their full-colour images, so the dithering is awful 16:41:19 pfft 16:41:23 i meant haskell 16:41:30 nooga: what do you mean :P 16:41:31 prolog is too simple 16:44:00 a page that woul let you to guess which function is meaningless and which is a real one 16:44:51 easy :P 16:51:26 ehird@dinky:~/NixOS$ dd if=/dev/zero of=hd bs=1k count=0 seek=8388608 16:51:26 0+0 records in 16:51:26 0+0 records out 16:51:26 0 bytes (0 B) copied, 1.8299e-05 s, 0.0 kB/s 16:51:28 Damn that was quick. 16:52:31 alise, does python have any function like is-int? or such 16:53:08 Vorpal: you don't want to. 16:53:11 (isinstance) 16:53:15 ouch 16:53:20 isinstance(x, int) 16:53:25 that sounds messy 16:53:27 but it's generally considered bad -- then again, who gives a shit? 16:53:27 indeed 16:53:30 Vorpal: not really 16:53:32 alise, is it slow? 16:53:32 it's just x is-a int 16:53:33 with a scary name 16:53:34 Vorpal: no 16:53:43 it just checks that the class is either that class or a subclas 16:53:44 *subclass 16:53:44 fine then, since I need to invoke it quite often 16:56:07 if you need it to be fast, just make it so you don't have to check anything at all 16:56:37 if you need it to be fast, make it a lookup table 16:56:40 THEN REMOVE THE LOOKUP TABLE 16:58:04 Make a graph of the IRC of: Uppercase letters, lowercase letters, digits, punctuation, line length, words per line, NOTICE messages, ACTION messages, messages containing CTRL+A but not ACTION, URLs, replies, user registration, QUIT messages, idle time, etc 16:58:15 THEN ENGAGE CAPSLOCK 16:58:50 THEN REPLACE YOUR CODE WITH NOPS 16:58:52 olsner, well, fast as in "not excessively slow" here. 16:58:53 THEN REMOVE THE NOPS!!!! 16:59:52 Vorpal: did you know that linux consoles can have a background image, and be centred??? 17:00:05 bg image yes, and centered as in the image? 17:00:10 as in the console 17:00:15 NixOS's console is centred with a background that has a translucent, glow-bordered area 17:00:18 in which the actual console is placed 17:00:21 it's freaking me out 17:00:26 Vorpal: seeing as python already is excessively slow, I think you'll be fine 17:00:29 you mean center as in smaller buffer than screen or centered as in
? 17:00:31 (translucent = dimmed) 17:00:34 Vorpal: former 17:00:35 ARM SUPERCOMPUTER FTW 17:00:35 olsner, :P 17:00:42 alise, hm okay, that bit I didn't know 17:00:44 so it looks like you have a title-less, translucent xterm on top of a background image 17:00:47 scary! 17:01:09 hello vorpal 17:01:18 hello alise 17:01:26 and hello zzo38 17:02:14 EOF: OK. Hello 17:02:58 the ARM archetecture is BEAUTIFUL!!! 17:03:36 i want to hug it 17:03:58 EOF: Do you know about the MMIX? 17:04:02 ARM has breasts 17:04:25 MMIX better get going 17:04:38 EOF: How is that relevant? And that doesn't even make sense anyways. How can ARM have breasts? 17:05:06 because it's beautiful 17:06:23 EOF: can you stop being fucking insane, or just go away? 17:06:37 :( 17:06:39 meanie 17:07:02 "because it's beautiful"? I am not sure I follow..... 17:08:14 i made a program for the sheevaplug and it calculates nipple positions from photos if you know the light angle 17:08:22 and it works 17:08:27 yay 17:08:38 you're crazy. 17:08:58 anybody want the code? 17:09:01 no. 17:09:10 or should o sell it to th military 17:09:17 EOF: So now you made a program that can find things in pictures 17:09:28 You should make the code more generalized 17:09:33 no 17:09:43 it finds nipple positions 17:09:47 nothing more 17:10:13 using approximations of the golden ratio 17:10:16 EOF: Yes I know that, but unless it can be modified to do more generalized stuff, it isn't that useful 17:10:51 i guess it could find the majority of other measurements in the human body 17:11:10 with the right approach 17:11:33 I suppose that is a possibility 17:13:22 motion tracking for long range computerized riflemen? 17:13:47 aka sniper sentries :) 17:16:28 ARM's breasts AR M cups 17:18:09 EOF: you are possibly the stupidest person ever to visit this channel. 17:18:44 fizzie, the matching up works fine up until netsplit, but handling netsplit seems near impossible 17:18:52 especially the rejoining after 17:19:39 funtimes 17:22:40 alise: You may be correct. It does seem like that. 17:22:51 i was once required by an employer to use FORTRAN, i quit 17:23:04 FORTRAN EWW!!! 17:23:16 Fortran was a perfectly good language for its time. 17:23:43 EOF: If you don't like FORTRAN, that is OK. Different people can prefer a different program language. 17:24:00 yeah, i suppose, but it was invented for the IBM 704 17:24:18 prior to tpedecks 17:24:37 dip switches and punchcards 17:29:48 I invented the "Pokemon Keyboard". 17:31:45 In typing mode, the keys are: 0/A, 1/B, 2/C, 3/D, 4/E, 5/F, 6/G, 7/H, 8/I, 9/J, minus/K, plus/L, multiply/M, divide/N, dot/O, colon/P, comma/Q, semicolon/R, equal/S, not-equal/T, less/U, greater/V, left-parenthesis/W, right-parenthesis/X, quote/Y, question/Z, hash/apostrophe, infinity/male, currency/female, SPACE, NUM/ALPLA, left, right, RUBOUT, ENTER, CLEAR, up, down, SPECIAL, CANCEL. 17:32:45 In non-typing mode, the keys are: NULL, GRASS, FIRE, WATER, BUG, POISON, GHOST, ROCK, GROUND, NORMAL, FLYING, FIGHTING, PSYCHIC, ELECTRIC, ICE, DRAGON, DARK, METAL, PICTURE, OTHER, LEVEL, EVOLVE, SEARCH, AREA, STATUS, ORDER, HEIGHT, WEIGHT, TEXT, MODE, EDIT, PREVIOUS, NEXT, DELETE, SAVE, SEND, PROGRAM, PRINT, TIME, LOAD. 17:34:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kh4xhem8tM&feature=player_embedded 17:34:39 s/ALPLA/ALPHA/ 17:42:10 Hey, so I'm only second stupidest? 17:44:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=191ZS217zOY&feature=related 17:44:33 Obviously, I'm only considering people in this channel, not the morons in the videos I'm linking 17:45:50 Sgeo|web: she is so shitfaced in that second video 17:45:58 "You're stupid, you're stupid!" ":D :D XD :D :D :D" 17:45:58 Sgeo|web: I do understand that is what you mean. (However, I did not watch the video.) 17:46:13 * Sgeo|web looks for the remainer of what she said 17:47:14 " Angle: Actually, Thomas Jefferson has been misquoted, like I've been misquoted out of context. Thomas Jefferson was actually addressing a church and telling them through his address that there had been a wall of separation put up between the church and the state precisely to protect the church" " 17:47:44 ...does she think that Separation of Church and State doesn't do that? That that's not what it is? 17:47:47 Vorpal: I'm not sure what's wrong with netsplit; isn't it just so that those messages will end up being not-matched and therefore both end up in the final result? (And after the split is over you should again start seeing matches.) (But I don't know what you've done there, so... also, still quite away.) 17:47:52 It protects the church. All churches. 17:48:00 And non-Christian equivs 17:48:12 And those who don't believe 17:48:16 It protects everyone 17:48:24 "Church" doesn't mean "little church building" in this context... 17:48:49 Vorpal: As for the Python type-checking, you can test like "if type(x) is int" or "if type(x) is not int"; I guess that won't handle inheritance though. 17:49:10 fizzie: that's evil :P 17:49:11 There is a Python function for checking for inheritance 17:49:27 Sgeo|web: The isinstance() alise mentioned? 17:49:43 Oh 17:50:51 alise: Also, I did that "fixed sample set size" test, and ended up with a real mess: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapf.png 17:50:58 fizzie, the issue is matching up, since joins on different sides won't match 17:51:07 if I was on a different side than clog 17:51:17 fizzie: Seen it. 17:51:20 fizzie: What is this graph plotting? 17:51:32 fizzie, I might be better off just trying to track msg/act 17:51:32 fizzie: That one's the other one in seventy-gazillion bajillion years. 17:51:48 Vorpal: Is it a particular problem if both sets of joins end up in the log? 17:51:54 The galaxies merging and shit. 17:52:11 So what VMs are there apart from VirtualBox and QEMU? For Linux that is. 17:52:47 fizzie, well that is one issue. There is another scenario as well: one side see it as a netsplit, the other times out 17:52:54 which happens in a few places 17:53:01 but the first is a lot more problematic 17:53:09 Can you tell me what this graph is plotting, please? Like, what is the X axis for, what is the Y axis for, what are the shapes means, etc 17:53:44 zzo38: It's a scatterplot of the two first PCA components of 60 different writing-style-related features -- http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png has some of the raw features -- where each x is from features computed over 2000 messages. 17:54:27 zzo38: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png uses a lot larger sample sizes, so there the people actually can be separated. 17:54:47 My dad dislikes Obama, but only because of economic... thingies that I fail to understand 17:55:01 For all I know, the Republicans are 100% correct when it comes to the economy 17:55:09 fizzie, also messages can get lost before the point the other end see a quit 17:55:10 zzo38: And the ellipses are just contour plots at one and two standard deviations of normal distributions fitted to corresponding points. 17:55:15 fizzie: Do you have a full list of the components and the features? 17:55:15 But the social stances in general I cannot agree with 17:55:45 My dad also thinks of the Tea Party in terms of its economic positions 17:56:16 zzo38: http://p.zem.fi/esomap-feats -- the "foo (n)" ones are like histogram bins there. 17:56:28 fizzie, in the fixed set only you and zzo can be cleanly separated heh 17:56:50 fizzie, at least for those two components 17:56:52 And "Punctuation frequency (ellipsis)" is in fact bugged and always 0 for everyone. :p 17:57:24 fizzie, what does the ,1 for each one mean? 17:57:27 in the feats list 17:57:58 Vorpal: It's just the way octave prints out all cell arrays; it's a 60x1 array of strings, and it always prints out at least two indices. 17:58:18 fizzie, hm what is Type/Token? 17:59:21 It's "count of unique words"/"count of all words". 17:59:22 Do you have a copy of the raw data for everyone (and statistics, such as mean/median/stddev/variance, for each feature)? 17:59:27 ah 17:59:29 fizzie, also, is there any specific reason to not include line length in characters? After all that previous plot cleanly separated you from me and alise when you did frequency of line lengths... 17:59:51 zzo38, raw data I assume is the logs in topic 17:59:52 Vorpal: That's in there, it's the "[30,1] = Chars per paragraph (mean)". 17:59:59 fizzie, oh okay 18:00:44 Vorpal: OK, what if I use those I would also need the algorithms, which I do not have. 18:01:52 I have the raw computed features in MATLAB's binary format (readable with Octave too) if someone's so curious. http://zem.fi/~fis/esofea-n10.mat and http://zem.fi/~fis/esofea-m2000.mat for the esomapn.png and esomapf.png features, respectively. The data structures in the files might be a bit screwy, though. 18:02:01 fizzie, is there any way to calculate/visualise "separability" when taking all PCA axises in account? Maybe as a graph with distance from a given nick to the other ones, one per nick of those. 18:02:01 (They're written to work with the MATLAB SOM toolbox.) 18:02:57 Vorpal: You could graph serious "separability" by training some sort of classifier with the data, and then plotting the confusion matrix; I'll do that soonishly. 18:03:09 fizzie, "confusion matrix" :D 18:03:21 http://gawker.com/5603331/comical-sharron-angle-needs-press-to-be-her-friend 18:03:23 Is this a joke? 18:03:27 fizzie, what does a confusion matrix mean? 18:04:58 Vorpal: It's just the recognition results, so that rows match to the correct labels, columns match to the classifier results, and a value is in (i,j) if it actually has the label i but the classifier gives it j. You'd want the confusion matrix to be as diagonal as possible, since all values on the diagonal correspond to correct classifications. 18:05:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:05:13 Angle: "Well, no. We wanted them to ask the questions we want to answer so that they report the news the way we want it to be reported." 18:05:13 <3 18:05:37 alise, didn't you switch nick with Gregor some year(s) ago? For a few hours or such? And when you revealed what was going on it turned out no one had detected it. 18:05:46 I seem to have a vague memory of that 18:05:55 Vorpal: Yes. 18:06:16 Through a complicated number of swaps to each other's and other nicknames that appeared to restore itself but didn't. 18:06:23 :P 18:06:24 * oerjan also has a vague memory. of that, and in general. 18:06:46 alise, I guess that could both explain why you end up so near Gregor and also perhaps confuse the algorithm to place you even nearer. Or rather, place Gregor even nearer (due to your much higher volume I suspect you won't be affected as much) 18:06:59 Vorpal: it was for a short period of time 18:07:09 true, but the first point still stands 18:08:00 Gregor, did you drop an R hm? 18:08:03 Yes 18:08:05 yes. 18:08:06 ages ago 18:08:11 Molto ages ago. 18:08:12 fizzie, do you merge Gregor and GregorR in those plots? 18:08:20 mucho gusto molto 18:08:50 Vorpal: I think I merged in all that are like 'gregor%' there. 18:09:04 ah 18:09:16 Makes sense since up 'til recently I used GregorR?(-[A-Z])? 18:09:44 Vorpal: Also, here's a confusion matrix for letters: http://zem.fi/~fis/q3.png -- you can see things like "oh, s is very easy to classify" and "k/p/t and m/n are easily confused". 18:10:05 fizzie, pretty. 18:10:26 fizzie: wat 18:10:28 fizzie, is that for OCR? Or for the problem at hand? 18:10:43 Vorpal: It's some old speech recognition course homework. 18:10:55 So where's this nick-associability graph you're all referring to? 18:10:59 fizzie, ah 18:11:00 I don't see it in the logs (yet) 18:11:02 fizzie: /~fis/ must be so huge. 18:11:08 fizzie, Finnish or English? 18:11:23 Gregor: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapn.png is one. 18:12:01 Gregor, another one is http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png 18:12:12 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:12:14 fizzie, why is there no http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapfz.png ? 18:12:36 Vorpal: Because esomapf.png already has a zzo in it. 18:12:37 What are the axes? :P 18:12:48 fizzie, what about a non-z version of that? 18:12:49 Gregor: I said this like *right now*. 18:13:06 Gregor, first two PCA 18:13:15 Gregor: zzo38: It's a scatterplot of the two first PCA components of 60 different writing-style-related features -- http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png has some of the raw features -- where each x is from features computed over 2000 messages. 18:13:41 See, this is why I don't like using a BNC :P 18:13:55 It appears I've been here for hours, when in actuality my BNC's backlog didn't even cover that. 18:14:26 Gregor: So... don't? 18:14:32 Oh, I've configured bip to replay absolutely everything that has happened after I last said something/manually reset the backlog/last connected. 18:14:38 Gregor, so set it to log further than that? 18:14:46 Not that I usually read the backlog, though, so I guess it won't help. :p 18:14:53 Bleh 18:15:09 Vorpal: The confusion matrix is lacking äö, so it might even be English. In any case it was an phonemes-out-of-acoustics only trivial "recognizer", so it's actually a bit language-agnostic in that it doesn't care about words. 18:16:21 hm 18:16:38 fizzie, but not all languages have all phonemes afaik? 18:16:46 Vorpal: 18:16:47 # ls /bin 18:16:48 sh 18:16:53 # ls /lib 18:16:58 ls: cannot access /lib: No such file or directory 18:17:01 alise, um, wtf? 18:17:04 # ls /usr 18:17:04 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later). 18:17:09 ls: cannot access /usr: No such file or directory 18:17:14 alise, ls / 18:17:19 tell me what that does 18:17:26 Works. 18:17:30 alise, and lists what? 18:17:30 Ohbtw: Gregor: So... don't? // but now my hostname is codu.org :P 18:17:35 bin boot dev etc home media mnt nix nix-store.squashfs proc root sys tmp var 18:17:45 alise, what is nix-store? 18:17:45 Vorpal: Right, and English phonemes tend to have screwier names than just letters; so I think it is Finnish. I think it was from a three-sentence datasets, so it might just not have any äö in it. 18:17:46 Gregor: I can think of a million other ways to achieve that. 18:17:52 Gregor: Do you use a graphical client? 18:18:17 Yeeeeeeeeees 18:18:24 fizzie, you don't have stuff like combination of letters making new sounds in Finnish? Like sj in Swedish 18:18:38 fizzie, or long/short 18:18:45 Gregor: Here, I've thought of one already: Set up a tiny, tiny server on a port on codu.org that, when connected to, waits for a NICK/USER/PASS line, checks the PASS line, then creates a connection to irc.freenode.net, sends off those three lines, and simply directly relays everything between the two. 18:18:53 This connection is, obviously, broken when your client or the server breaks it. 18:19:02 This would be, what, 30 lines of code? 18:19:05 -!- jcp has joined. 18:19:14 alise: So, a bnc that doesn't remain connected. 18:19:21 Gregor: BNCs are much more involved... 18:19:28 They have "commands" and stuff! 18:19:31 Vorpal: then what was that you just posted above? did you, *gasp* MAKE YOUR OWN PAN? <-- Ceci n'est pas un pan 18:19:59 Vorpal: Can you tell what it is yet? 18:20:03 No Googling. 18:20:09 alise, not all bncs have commands 18:20:15 Vorpal: Err, not that. 18:20:25 The disturbingly-empty filesystem tree. 18:20:36 Vorpal: Not much, though I think "ng" is often considered a different phoneme in Finnish. Still, Finnish text-to-phoneme mapping is usually done with a (very small) set of rules, as opposed to English which always needs a pronunciation dictionary. 18:20:47 alise, well you had nix-store.squashfs in it 18:20:54 alise, and you didn't answer my question: 18:20:57 alise, what is nix-store? 18:21:06 Vorpal: I won't answer something /that/ simple. 18:21:11 alise, I presume it is something called nix-store 18:21:15 I'm afraid I will require more mechanical commands. 18:21:20 Or very simple questions. 18:21:20 -!- Sgeo|NeedUSB has joined. 18:21:31 alise, I'm not sure I'm interesting in guessing 18:21:51 alise: .squashfs makes it sound like some sort of embedded-linux, maybe a router or wlan-ap or whatnot. 18:22:02 alise, but what does ls /nix do? 18:22:26 alise, oh and some other stuff: 18:22:27 etc var 18:22:30 type uname 18:22:33 Although it also had "store" there a minute ago. 18:22:39 that is literal 18:22:43 uname is /var/run/current-system/sw/bin/uname 18:22:54 (ls /nix/store does indeed work.) 18:22:55 alise, uname 18:22:57 (run that) 18:23:06 Input/output error. I think I broke something. 18:23:18 alise, what about: uname -a 18:23:27 Same. I think it doesn't like the VM. 18:23:50 alise, well... does other commands that are not shell builtins still work? 18:24:27 alise, anyway, is it linux-based or other (such as *bsd or whatever) 18:25:03 Yes. Linux. 18:25:10 why would somebody run linux in a VM if they could just fuse kernels 18:25:13 I'm not sure how well squashfs is supported on anything not a Linux. 18:25:19 ls -l ==> Bus error, lol, I have really fucked something up here 18:25:24 * oerjan sneakily steals his saucepan back 18:25:40 * EOF thinks that wasn't so sneaky 18:25:40 alise, well then the answer is simple, it is some crazy linux distro along the lines of gobolinux when it comes to crazy organisation of the filesystem :P 18:25:44 Vorpal: I'll just give it away: it's NixOS, using the purely-functional package manager Nix. 18:25:48 similar, yes, but it's crazy in a cool way 18:26:03 because 18:26:08 every configuration or package change is versioned 18:26:09 why the squashfs though? 18:26:11 so you can run trunk all the time 18:26:16 since you can just boot the previous configuration in grub 18:26:18 EOF: well you're not the one who isn't supposed to notice. 18:26:24 /nix/store/r8vvq9kq18pz08v249h8my6r9vs7s0n3-firefox-2.0.0.1/ 18:26:29 the hash is a hash of the dependency graph 18:26:49 and the directory is immutable 18:26:59 and users can install multiple local versions of a package and it use the same tree 18:26:59 alise, a pitty the whole OS is not purely functional. Since then fucking it up would be considered a side effect and thus be hard to perform :P 18:27:01 (because they're verified) 18:27:41 Vorpal: 18:27:41 When you install a package like this… 18:27:41 $ nix-env --uninstall firefox 18:27:41 the package isn’t deleted from the system right away (after all, you might want to do a rollback, or it might be in the profiles of other users). Instead, unused packages can be deleted safely by running the garbage collector: 18:27:41 $ nix-collect-garbage 18:27:43 This deletes all packages that aren’t in use by any user profile or by a currently running program. 18:27:45 You can garbage collect the packages! 18:27:54 (nice 18:28:01 s/\(// 18:28:01 Oh yeah, and the package manager works on other distros too. 18:28:25 alise, I'm not sure the native package manager wouldn't clobber it 18:28:54 I'm pretty sure dpkg clobbers stuff just fine if it doesn't think it handles them itself and they are not in /etc or such 18:30:29 Vorpal: it doesn't 18:30:33 since it's self-contained 18:30:34 also 18:30:36 here's the really cool thing 18:30:43 in NixOS, the CONFIGURATION is managed with nix too 18:30:52 { 18:30:52 boot.loader.grub.device = "/dev/sda"; 18:30:52 18:30:52 fileSystems = [ 18:30:52 { mountPoint = "/"; 18:30:53 device = "/dev/sda1"; 18:30:55 } 18:30:57 ]; 18:30:59 services.sshd.enable = true; 18:31:01 } 18:31:03 that's an example minimalist full-machine configuration 18:31:09 alise, I didn't say nix clobbered, but that the package manager might unless you use a prefix for the nix stuff 18:31:10 so you can roll this back even if you make it not boot properly 18:31:12 (maybe not if you fuck up grub) 18:31:23 alise, also the name is highly likely to cause confusion 18:31:24 with *nix 18:31:25 Vorpal: it all goes in /nix/store :P 18:31:29 http://nixos.org/ 18:31:31 it's an established project 18:31:35 alise, not /bin/sh though? 18:31:36 research papers, large package set 18:31:40 (full KDE 4, many many packages) 18:31:43 continuous builds 18:31:46 small but established userbase 18:32:05 Vorpal: I think that's because too much stuff breaks without it, dunno 18:32:09 If I write distro, I will write a new package manager, called "pm", which receives package files (which can be concatenated) from stdin, and does stuff depending on the command-line options, sending results to stdout and status messages to stderr. 18:32:31 alise, there are a few more in that category, /usr/bin/env is very common 18:32:48 Vorpal: i'm not sure what they do for that. i'd have to checl. 18:32:50 *check. 18:33:17 alise, does it boot though? 18:33:29 Boot? Of course it boots. People use it as their main system. 18:33:40 alise, I mean after you fucked it up 18:33:44 that was a livecd 18:33:47 ah 18:33:51 i'm not sure how i fucked it up but i sure did 18:33:52 alise, that explains the squashfs 18:33:55 righ 18:33:56 *right 18:34:08 How does being a purely functional package manager help with any of that 18:34:30 Sgeo|NeedUSB: what? 18:34:42 "Nix is a purely functional package manager. This means that it can ensure that an upgrade to one package cannot break others, that you can always roll back to previous version, that multiple versions of a package can coexist on the same system, and much more. 18:34:45 " 18:35:00 the package management is purely functional, not just the code 18:35:15 it's not "this is written in Haskell" it's "packages are literally immutable and rollbackable" 18:35:36 alise, what happens if you manually edit a file of a package? 18:36:01 brb 18:36:18 Vorpal: well, at least one of the people there wants to chattr +i the store 18:36:26 i think you CAN fuck it up as root, but you'd have to be very deliberate 18:36:27 not sure 18:38:28 Vorpal: no /usr/bin/env :D 18:38:28 hardcore 18:40:06 alise, hm 18:40:35 * alise rm -rf /nix/store 18:40:41 It's a LiveCD, what's the worst that could happen?! 18:40:51 Mm, the silent sound of destruction. 18:40:58 Anarchic carnage. Chaos rules the land of Nix! 18:41:16 alise, 2gb flash drive enough?> 18:41:24 Sgeo|NeedUSB: What? 18:41:28 alise, so is there any package monad? 18:41:31 To put Ubuntu on 18:41:36 Vorpal: WHOA 18:41:38 And be reasonably sane 18:41:40 the kernel panicked :D 18:41:44 alise, how fun 18:41:50 Sgeo|NeedUSB: mmmmmmyes. 18:41:52 i'd go for 3-4 gb 18:41:55 but 2gb should be fine at a pinch 18:41:58 Sgeo|NeedUSB: NOTE 18:42:01 boot it from a livecd first 18:42:06 then use the USB Creator to write it to your drive 18:42:09 Will do 18:42:19 Sgeo|NeedUSB: remember to check the setting that allows ~ to be preserved 18:42:25 alise, anyway, when they say a package isn't deleted right away does it mean that the app stays in your path and such 18:42:30 or is it moved elsewhere from there 18:42:35 It won't preserve installed packages though, will it? 18:42:37 Vorpal: it's taken out of the current system 18:42:41 but still exists in prior systems and in the store 18:42:41 alise, right 18:42:48 the current system is just a bunch of symlinks, I think 18:42:49 more or less 18:42:52 alise, does it use unionfs for it or something? 18:42:55 ah 18:42:55 Sgeo|NeedUSB: uh, maybe. dunno. probably not. 18:43:01 Vorpal: i'm not sure on the details 18:43:03 you'd have to ask #nixos 18:43:34 hah 18:43:50 alise, any multilib support? 18:44:04 multilib done properly would make me interested 18:44:08 Vorpal: Probably? Ask #nixos. 18:44:09 I have no idea. 18:44:39 I think I feel myself switching to Haskell 18:44:49 But I really want Haskell with Erlang-style hotswapping 18:44:52 Or Smalltalk-style 18:45:37 "This command does everything necessary to make the configuration happen, including downloading and compiling OpenSSH, generating the configuration files for the SSH server, and so on." <-- hm, so... what if you want custom settings for the sshd, more than just "on/off"? 18:45:54 do you edit sshd_config then or does it provide some other way for all possible ssh settings? 18:46:05 Vorpal: #nixos 18:46:08 you're doing that thing you do 18:46:12 alise, but you have it running 18:46:14 assuming that because someone mentions something they're an expert 18:46:22 Vorpal: so do they 18:46:25 they also know where all this stuff is 18:46:26 touche 18:46:33 Every web framework and its mother has its own templating language 18:46:41 Sgeo|NeedUSB: not all of them! 18:47:29 alise: what, you mean you're not a nixos expert? you've been using this thing for several hours by the sound of it! 18:47:30 alise, the docs on their website... are very limited 18:48:11 Well, the thingy for Smalltalk instead has ... painting thingies 18:48:20 olsner: minutes actually! 18:48:26 Vorpal: they have a full manual. 18:48:34 the NixOS manual link is broken, here is one that works: 18:48:42 http://hydra.nixos.org/build/638450/download/1/nixos/manual.html 18:48:46 some issue with their continuous build system 18:49:09 alise, yes it is very limited. It's the same as the one I saw. 18:50:00 alise, here I compare to gentoo manual or freebsd manual. Heck even openbsd manual is better than that. It is just a quick start guide compared to those. 18:50:17 How do I paste into urxvt? 18:50:30 Sgeo|NeedUSB: middle mouse button 18:50:44 Vorpal: irrelevant. those document all the software packages in the system too 18:50:46 nix has no need to 18:50:48 alise, bbl, valvaka (no clue how to translate that, ask olsner or fizzie or someone, though olsner is probably going to watch that too) 18:50:48 Grr 18:51:00 * Sgeo|NeedUSB goes to enable middle mouse button emulation 18:51:06 "valvaka", says Google. 18:51:09 Sgeo|NeedUSB: it is already on 18:51:12 left and right buttons together 18:51:17 shift+insert might also work 18:51:29 election wake? 18:51:35 Nope 18:51:52 Ah, got it 18:51:55 Wrong clipboard 18:52:28 hmm, wake seems to be a specifically funeral ceremony 18:52:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:53:08 election wake XDDDD 18:53:37 I think it translates to vaalivalvojaiset; HTH. 18:53:53 staying up late to watch the counting of the votes live and listen to political analysis and stuff 18:55:02 The annoying thing about Try Haskell is that it's more REPL-like and less "Put stuff in, put it in a file, run file" like 18:55:02 Vorpal: http://wiki.nixos.org/wiki/Main_Page 18:55:07 THis makes a difference for Haskell 18:56:12 Vorpal: nix-build --argstr system i686-linux $NIXPKGS_ALL -A skype_linux 18:56:15 so yes multilib 18:56:32 Also, adjusting back to prefix is painful 18:57:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:57:42 Sgeo|NeedUSB: You can (IIRC) swap the button meanings in urxvt so that it's "paste" on right-button and "extend selection" (the far less used one) on middle, but I'm not sure I'd do that, I'm afraid it might lead to a habit of right-clicking for paste. 18:58:09 Right-click is paste on PuTTY, iirc 18:58:18 Could you add support for the tag to the esolang wiki? (It does not have to actually output the <xmp> tag, it might convert it to other tags.) Also support digits after "xmp", so that you can write <xmp15> ...... </xmp15> 18:58:28 <olsner> aha, luckily wake also means "to remain awake for some purpose, duty, etc." and "to keep watch or vigil." ... either works well with an election 18:59:34 <zzo38> The <xmp> tag on MediaWiki should make it print everything inside the tags as verbatim text, with no templates, signatures, HTML tags, HTML character entities, or other stuff. 19:00:08 <nooga> you shold all try f.lux program 19:00:14 <fizzie> Sgeo|NeedUSB: PuTTY's is configurable too; I think it even calls the paste-on-middle "X-style". 19:00:15 <nooga> it's totally awesome 19:00:37 <zzo38> As well as turning off the spam filter inside of <xmp> tags for registered autoconfirmed users. 19:01:20 <zzo38> nooga: What is f.lux program? 19:01:24 <nooga> google it 19:01:53 <olsner> oh my, the nationalist party may get into parliament 19:02:12 <nooga> it adjusts color temperature of your display so that you can last whoile night looking at it 19:02:54 <nooga> and it doesn't affect the actual brightness nor contrast 19:03:26 <alise> f.lux is cool 19:03:29 <alise> but i hate it 19:03:48 <zzo38> I already adjusted the color temperature on my computer anyways 19:03:57 <alise> zzo38: it updates it dynamically over the night 19:04:03 <alise> so it maintains a constant perceived brightness 19:04:05 <Gregor> Hahaha ad fail. Accidentally clicked a Hulu ad that led me to http://ask.sherwin-williams.com/ 19:04:10 <alise> based on your timezone and the light you use 19:04:14 <Gregor> Which is an unconfigured IIS7 install :P 19:04:27 <alise> Gregor: Wow, they stole that Welcome-in-43583475345-languages thing from OS X. 19:04:35 <alise> And the whole spacey-explosion-background-with-big-shadowed-text thing. 19:04:43 <alise> Microsoft: TRYING TOO HARD 19:04:54 <Gregor> Stealing from OS X is what Microsoft does. 19:05:07 <alise> Gregor: Do you know how stable btrfs is? 19:05:13 <Gregor> Nope. 19:05:17 <alise> WELL START KNOWING 19:05:22 <zzo38> alise: And I don't need such a thing that updates it dynamically based on those things, what I have works 19:06:50 -!- Sgeo|NeedUSB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:08:15 -!- SgeosTears has joined. 19:09:48 <SgeosTears> Ubuntu download at 19% 19:10:46 <SgeosTears> alise, continuing to read FS? 19:10:57 <alise> SgeosTears: not right now, but later. 19:11:02 <fizzie> Wow, ugly: http://www.epstk.de/ http://epstk22.awardspace.com/examples/demo2.png 19:11:12 <alise> fizzie: latter is 404 19:11:27 <fizzie> Weird, maybe it checks referer or something. 19:11:32 <alise> yeah works on the page 19:11:55 <alise> we need something to fake referer instead of just hiding it (like anonym.to does) 19:12:04 <alise> somehow 19:24:40 <SgeosTears> Uh, wget? You should be saving to USB 19:24:44 <SgeosTears> Not to memory 19:25:17 <SgeosTears> Oh crap 19:26:37 <SgeosTears> Dammit, is it starting the download over? 19:26:38 * SgeosTears cries 19:27:12 * SgeosTears attempts to work out how to resume a download 19:28:15 <fizzie> wget -c, usually. 19:28:43 <SgeosTears> ty 19:28:48 <SgeosTears> Although saw it in the manpage 19:29:19 <SgeosTears> Woohoo! 19:29:40 * SgeosTears makes sweet, sweet love to wget 19:30:09 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/shogun-octave -- a stable piece of software there. 19:34:00 <SgeosTears> Note to self: Don't assume /mnt/flash is, in fact, the flash drive 19:34:12 <SgeosTears> Esp. if i know that /mnt/sda1 is def. the flash drive 19:34:12 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:34:16 <SgeosTears> I hate the word definitely 19:35:08 -!- wareya has joined. 19:40:28 <alise> SgeosTears: how old is fine structure? it was there in august 2005 19:41:20 <SgeosTears> I don't know 19:41:28 <SgeosTears> but iirc, it ended earlier this year 19:41:38 <alise> http://web.archive.org/web/20080221012806/qntm.org/?structure 19:41:43 <alise> "This story has been ongoing since 2006." 19:41:43 <alise> yet 19:41:45 <alise> http://web.archive.org/web/20080221003727/qntm.org/?fiction 19:41:48 <alise> 2005-08-23 19:41:52 <alise> Fine Structure (subdirectory) 19:41:57 <augur> alise! 19:42:13 <alise> Forgotten things in space. That's not in any more, is it? 19:42:15 * augur flops on alise sup you 19:42:24 <alise> That's why you said unbelievable scenes in space, SgeosTears? 19:42:37 <alise> Is reading "Forgotten things in space" a spoiler, then? 19:42:38 <alise> augur: hi. 19:43:32 <augur> hows things 19:43:55 <alise> SgeosTears. 19:43:57 <alise> augur: good 19:44:25 <SgeosTears> Forgotten things in space was retconned out 19:44:40 <SgeosTears> I think it is why I said Unbelievable Things in Space 19:44:58 <alise> "Then a man named Calrus discovered how to travel faster than light." 19:45:02 <alise> then that explains it 19:45:04 <alise> the comment on the later story 19:45:08 <alise> about "Calrus, the guy who invented FTL?" 19:45:16 <SgeosTears> Yeah 19:45:33 <EOF> Tears 19:45:36 <EOF> lul 19:45:47 <alise> rebooting 19:45:57 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:46:14 * SgeosTears can't wait to use Ubuntu 19:47:38 -!- calamari_ has joined. 19:48:44 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari-. 19:50:34 -!- lament has joined. 19:56:16 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 20:01:41 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:01:47 -!- nooga has joined. 20:05:21 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:08:20 <SgeosTears> alise: "[REDACTED] is canon. Think of it as a deleted scene." 20:08:30 <SgeosTears> No, [REDACTED] is not the title of the actual thing 20:10:08 <ais523> hmm, apparently Myst completely confused its fans, when the developers made statements about official canon that contradicted the games 20:10:18 <ais523> people aren't entirely sure what to make of it 20:10:52 <SgeosTears> Recently? 20:11:15 <SgeosTears> Also, I think that in Uru canon, the games were actually PC games based on real events 20:11:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's a confusion matrix out of a default-parameters SVM classifier, on the "easy" set (everyone's all messages divided into 10 sets), 10-fold cross-validation (i.e. classifier trained on a set that has 9 points from everyone, then tested on a set that has one point from everyone, results averaged out). It's pretty boring, 20:12:27 <Vorpal> <olsner> staying up late to watch the counting of the votes live and listen to political analysis and stuff <-- so what is it called in English? 20:12:55 <Vorpal> ah wake works, right 20:12:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm *looks* 20:13:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, "here" you say, but where is the link? 20:13:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Uh... I *thought* I had written it, but seems not. 20:13:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconf.png anyway; "I mean, really, you should've been able to guess that". 20:14:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, so Gregor/ihope?! 20:14:33 <Vorpal> and pikhq 20:14:33 <Vorpal> hm 20:14:48 <Vorpal> Deewiant/alise too 20:15:08 <fizzie> There's two instances of ihope being misclassified as Gregor, right. And some cross-confusion between gregor/pikhq, which I think was in the original plot too. 20:15:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the scale? percent of messages tested on? 20:15:24 <Gregor> That level of correlation is pretty high, actually. 20:15:38 <Gregor> I suppose you could identify me fairly accurately with /:P$/ though :P 20:15:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, well ratio, not percent 20:16:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, I do that sometimes too, and ";P" 20:16:19 <Vorpal> I use both 20:16:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's normalized across the columns, so it's "fraction of correctly classified instances of this particular person". 20:16:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, confusing 20:17:03 <fizzie> Gregor: Right, but my features are borderline trivial: http://p.zem.fi/esomap-feats if you didn't see them yet. 20:17:04 <SgeosTears> 94% 20:17:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's why they call it a confusion matrix. 20:17:11 <nooga> in which C compilers x[y] means the same as y[x] 20:17:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, XD 20:17:13 <nooga> ? 20:17:28 <fizzie> nooga: In all of them. Well, all compliant, anyway. 20:17:42 <nooga> since, i believe that it's all translated to *(x+y) 20:17:43 <fizzie> x[y] = *(x+y) = *(y+x) = y[x], after all. 20:17:48 <Gregor> fizzie: Yeah, I saw them. 20:17:58 <nooga> but huh 20:18:00 <fizzie> Yes, 4["hello"] == 'o'. 20:18:01 <nooga> 1[tab] ? 20:18:52 <fizzie> It's a bit of an IOCCC'y trick to do, though. 20:19:16 <fizzie> I've seen exactly one instance of integer_variable["string literal"] in real code, I think. 20:19:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm surprised you seen any at all 20:19:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was the context of that one 20:20:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: dcraw.c, tiff_get(), line 4308 (of some version): if (*len * ("11124811248488"[*type < 14 ? *type:0]-'0') > 4) 20:20:48 <Deewiant> That's not integer_variable["string literal"] 20:21:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, you're right! I misremembererered it. 20:21:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's still pretty messy, though. Maybe I could suggest swapping those around. 20:21:49 <fizzie> "It seems to me you're trying to make this more confusing: here, swap those around." 20:22:13 <Deewiant> Meh, that's how I'd write it 20:22:22 <Vorpal> hm 20:22:27 <Deewiant> Modulo naming the magic constants :-P 20:22:27 <Vorpal> a bit confusing yeah 20:22:51 <Vorpal> also type → t and len → l 20:22:59 <SgeosTears> Dammit, what's Ubuntu's md5? 20:23:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'd write it with a "static unsigned char type_lengths[] = {1, 1, 1, ...}" and then type_lengths[...], instead of using ascii digits and subtracting '0'. 20:23:18 <Vorpal> SgeosTears, which version? for which platform? which type of install? 20:23:27 <Vorpal> SgeosTears, or do you mean the program? then md5sum 20:23:31 <Vorpal> also why "tears" in your nick 20:23:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: Well yes, that comes with the naming 20:23:47 <SgeosTears> Because Firefox on PuppyLinux keeps crashing 20:24:10 <Deewiant> If it's somehow really obvious I might write it as shown, but it probably isn't 20:24:38 <SgeosTears> I don't see the list of md5s 20:25:25 <SgeosTears> is canon. Think of it as a deleted scene. 20:25:27 <SgeosTears> oops 20:25:43 <SgeosTears> ubuntu-10.04.1-desktop-i386.iso 20:26:42 <fizzie> SgeosTears: 9a95ed6f6ec38fb58c446dba1add6a08 if I picked the right row. 20:26:58 <SgeosTears> Ok, great 20:27:02 <SgeosTears> Now where did you find it? 20:27:10 <fizzie> SgeosTears: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes 20:27:15 <SgeosTears> ty 20:27:46 <Vorpal> btw for anyone interested (updated every minute): http://www.val.se/val/val2010/valnatt/R/rike/index.html 20:27:49 <Vorpal> olsner, ^ 20:28:13 <SgeosTears> burning time 20:28:59 <Vorpal> SgeosTears, firefox keeps crashing? how weir 20:29:01 <Vorpal> weird* 20:29:26 <olsner> Vorpal: yep, been refreshing the page ever since they started 20:29:26 <Vorpal> or the distro as whole? 20:30:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Are the light-grey bars last election's results? 20:30:45 <olsner> yeah, I think so 20:31:09 <fizzie> Based on the fact that those column headings are also grey, I guess so. 20:34:12 <SgeosTears> Booting into Ubuntu, hopefully 20:34:12 <nooga> http://cobaia.net/2010/09/top-funny-source-code-comments/ 20:34:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Valdeltagande .. 81,8%"; our last parliament elections (2007; there's one next year) had the lowest participation rate in Finland ever in the post-war era, 67,9%. Victory of the apathetic. 20:35:56 <Gregor> ... lawl. 20:35:58 -!- alise has joined. 20:36:00 <Gregor> What is it in the US? 20:36:04 <Gregor> 15% or something? ;) 20:36:05 <alise> Painful. 20:37:00 <Gregor> fizzie: In the US it hasn't beat 60% in 30 years. 20:38:30 -!- SgeosTears has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:38:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, that's preliminary 20:39:03 <Vorpal> also, night → 20:39:04 <alise> 12:12:55 <Vorpal> ah wake works, right 20:39:05 <alise> no it does not 20:39:11 <alise> wake for is funerals only 20:39:18 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconff.png -- heh, the fixed-size 2000-message test set is a pretty horrible sight. Almost everyone else (except ais523, me, oklopol and vorpal, and oerjan to some extent) keeps getting misclassified as alise. Probably because e represents over a third of the dataset. 20:39:43 <Vorpal> <olsner> aha, luckily wake also means "to remain awake for some purpose, duty, etc." and "to keep watch or vigil." ... either works well with an election 20:39:46 <Vorpal> alise, ^ 20:39:48 <Vorpal> based on that 20:39:49 <Vorpal> it does 20:40:03 <alise> Vorpal: nobody says wake 20:40:04 <alise> when you say wake 20:40:06 <alise> people think funeral 20:40:07 <alise> immediately 20:40:11 <alise> *nobody says wake in any other context 20:40:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah 20:40:23 <fizzie> alise: When you say wake, I think of that thing behind a boat. 20:40:40 <Vorpal> alise, now what would you call it? 20:40:44 <ais523> fizzie: analysing punctuation would probably work better 20:40:49 <Vorpal> I'll read the answer tomorrow. Night → 20:41:21 <fizzie> ais523: Probably. All this was originally done for book authorship classification, where the data points are quite a bit larger, so simple statistics like that have less variance. 20:42:03 <ais523> things like the punctuation mark used after a nickping would distinguish me from Vorpal straight off 20:42:49 <fizzie> That's not often seen in books, though. I'll try to make a more IRC-specific feature set at some point. There's some punctuation frequency counts, but they're just averages over the whole set. 20:43:16 <fizzie> (Still, the "colon frequency" would probably be higher for people that do "nick: foo" often.) 20:45:12 -!- distant_figure has joined. 20:45:20 -!- distant_figure has quit (Client Quit). 20:46:57 <alise> brb 20:48:28 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png -- well, Vorpal does have the lowest colon frequency, and he does "nick," I guess. 20:50:30 <EOF> lulz 20:50:38 <EOF> hi fizzle 20:53:29 <fizzie> Uh, hello. 20:53:40 <fizzie> (I never quite know how to react to greetings.) 20:54:23 <EOF> yeah 20:54:42 <EOF> i have fallen in love with the arm architecture 20:55:02 <EOF> and the energy efficiency associated with it 20:56:02 <EOF> just image if intel applied their 22nm process to a desktop-class ARM cpu 20:56:23 <fizzie> Why, we could end world hunger in one swell foop! 20:56:29 <fizzie> (Caution: hyperbole.) 20:57:12 * EOF instructs fizzle to duck as he fixes to explode 20:57:21 * EOF 20:57:27 * EOF 3 20:57:29 * EOF 2 20:57:31 * EOF 1 20:57:37 * EOF BOOM!!! 20:59:55 * EOF sees that fizzle ducked just in time and only lost four of his eight limbs 21:00:24 * EOF is going to stop with the /me stuff 21:00:32 * Gregor wonders who fizzle is. 21:00:55 * EOF takes that back 21:01:12 * EOF doesn't know who fizzle is either 21:01:41 * EOF also thinks that we should all speak in third person about ourselves 21:01:41 <fizzie> Gregor: Coincidentally, "fizzle" is what I was used to be called. 21:01:47 <calamari-> solution: increase font size 21:02:04 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined. 21:02:08 * EOF sees the error in his waingys/typ 21:02:25 <Sgeo|Empathy> Is Empathy as bad as most IM clients that try to do IRC are? 21:02:51 <Sgeo|Empathy> Well, this is kind of pretty, but un-irc-like 21:02:57 * EOF has never used empathy 21:03:05 <Sgeo|Empathy> Well, /ctcp doesn't work :/ 21:03:31 <Sgeo|Empathy> No /version command 21:04:02 <Sgeo|Empathy> Meh, I'll live, maybe 21:15:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:16:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:18:56 <zzo38> End world hunger in the way they did at the radio, the entire universe is destroyed. And then they had news "the world no longer exists, I wanted to go to the zoo next week but I can't because neither the world nor me exist any more" 21:20:40 <ais523> zzo38: such a statement is a difficult one to make truthfully 21:21:02 <zzo38> ais523: Yes it is, but that was a joke (I think it was called "Irrelevance Show" or something like that) 21:23:11 * Sgeo|Empathy installs Chrome 21:23:25 <Sgeo|Empathy> Firefox just wastes SO MUCH screen space it isn't funny 21:23:35 <Sgeo|Empathy> And Ubuntu Software Center crashes 21:24:38 <zzo38> Sgeo|Empathy: You can turn off some stuff, I think, in Firefox. Or use XUL-Runner, since Vonkeror does not use up much screen space for user interface stuff, only the document you are viewing takes up most of the space of the window. 21:26:56 <ais523> Sgeo|Empathy: if you press F11, then it doesn't use up any screen space but the document you're reading, the vertical scrollbar, and a few pixels at the top of the screen 21:28:37 <Sgeo|Empathy> Chromium installed 21:32:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:32:55 <Phantom_Hoover> What are the haps, my friends? 21:33:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:24 -!- augur has joined. 21:33:44 <Sgeo|Empathy> Gwibber has Digg but not Reddit? 21:33:47 <Sgeo|Empathy> :( 21:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> The horror! 21:37:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:37:35 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has left (?). 21:37:43 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined. 21:37:44 -!- lament has joined. 21:37:46 <augur> sgeo is not empath- oh wait 21:39:18 <alise> empathetic 21:39:28 <alise> augur: what was the end of that sentence? :P 21:39:35 <augur> etic 21:40:21 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> What are the haps, my friends? ;; this is a *so* un-you thing to say 21:40:29 <Sgeo|Empathy> I don't want to have to reinstall Chromium and Flash when I restart the comp 21:40:35 <alise> augur: i was making a pun on em-pathetic :P 21:40:39 <alise> anyway how do you know that? 21:40:44 <alise> unless you're making a diagnosis of autism 21:41:05 <augur> alise: his name was Sgeo|Empathy but then he left. we know he's still Sgeo, so he must no longer be empathetic! 21:41:08 <augur> but now hes back 21:41:17 <alise> ah. 21:41:17 <augur> also 21:41:18 <augur> http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2010/09/19/tapir3_1.jpg 21:41:22 <augur> have a david mitchell tapir 21:41:25 <alise> xDDD 21:41:35 <alise> its nose is dripping. :| 21:41:38 <alise> brb, booting into a livecd 21:41:40 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:46:02 <Sgeo|Empathy> Grah 21:46:12 <Sgeo|Empathy> I can't cheat Meebo into telling me what my passwords are :( 21:47:33 -!- alise has joined. 21:47:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:47:38 <augur> alise: david mitchell tapir has a cold. 21:48:11 <alise> Verily. 21:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Do dependently-typed languages have to be totalistic, or can they allow general recursion? 21:49:14 <alise> "total", not "totalistic". 21:49:22 <alise> And the former; the latter implies an inconsistent type system. 21:49:23 <Phantom_Hoover> *totalitarian 21:49:28 <augur> FASCIST LANGUAGES 21:49:31 <alise> I suppose if you don't mind type-checking taking forever and will never want to prove anything with it, it's okay. 21:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Mhm. 21:50:00 <alise> (Literally forever.) 21:50:18 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC there was some plan for Epigram to have limited general recursion, but I don't know the details. 21:50:40 <alise> "limited general" 21:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there was a tagging system in the type system, I think. 21:52:23 <Sgeo|Empathy> What's the difference between gddrescue and dd_rescue? 21:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them has a g, the other an underscore. 21:53:06 <fizzie> g sounds like something with a GTK gui. 21:54:01 <fizzie> (Also, this is fizzie|Empathy speaking, and I don't like this especially much. The correct-as-I-type puts squiggles under my name.) 21:54:14 <Sgeo|Empathy> Here, the g is just GNU, I think 21:54:40 <fizzie> Then the difference is probably that gddrescue can check your emails in addition to reading a disk. 21:54:50 * Phantom_Hoover stopped using Empathy when he discovered it was making his real name visible in whoises. 21:55:06 <Sgeo|Empathy> Is my real name visible in /whois 21:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And I couldn't fix it easily, so I just switched to XChat. 21:55:12 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it isn't. 21:55:12 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You can change that in the "add account" preferences. 21:55:24 <Sgeo|Empathy> Why can't I use /whois from here? 21:55:50 <Sgeo|Empathy> Also, what, exactly, is People Near Here? 21:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Empathy sucks as an IRC client and as a chat client in general, really. 21:58:30 <fizzie> With this default theme, I'm finding it pretty hard to distinguish between who says what. 21:58:33 <Sgeo|Empathy> I really do like the log viewer 21:58:49 <Sgeo|Empathy> And the integration with .. Ubuntu..ness 22:00:41 <alise> <Sgeo|Empathy> Also, what, exactly, is People Near Here? 22:00:42 <alise> People Near Here. 22:01:53 <Sgeo|Empathy> How does someone not on Ubuntu connect to it? 22:02:07 <Phantom_Hoover> They don't, probablyy. 22:02:08 <Phantom_Hoover> *y 22:02:55 <fizzie> I don't see a "People Near Here" anywhere. :/ 22:03:07 <fizzie> Ooh, graphical smileys, sign of civilization. 22:03:23 <Sgeo|Empathy> fizzie: As an account type 22:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> *sign of populist crap 22:04:06 <fizzie> There's a "People Nearby" account type here, I guess that's the same thing. 22:04:50 -!- aku2 has joined. 22:05:03 * Sgeo|Empathy meant People Nearby 22:05:11 * Sgeo|Empathy has joined the room 22:06:11 <fizzie> I don't exactly like the word "room" in an IRCy context either. 22:06:22 <fizzie> But the speech bubbles sure are purty. 22:06:36 <Gregor> "I thought this plan was foolproof!" "Foolproof yes, idiot-proof no." 22:06:51 * Sgeo|Empathy dislikes how it's impossible to distinguish between someone joining/parting and someone using /me 22:07:13 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:07:34 * Sgeo|Empathy has disconnected(Ping timeout: 10000000000 seconds) 22:07:37 <Sgeo|Empathy> dammit 22:07:44 * Gregor has disconnected (OR HAS HE) 22:07:55 <fizzie> Sgeo|Empathy: Yes, that's confusing, I had to take a look in the XChat window to find out what actually happened on your "join". 22:08:20 -!- aku2 has quit (Client Quit). 22:08:44 <Gregor> "No Bullwinkle, we've got to think!" "Rocky, this is no time to pick up a new hobby!" 22:09:03 <alise> <Sgeo|Empathy> How does someone not on Ubuntu connect to it? 22:09:03 <alise> no 22:09:09 <alise> it's just uh 22:09:10 <alise> what is it 22:09:13 <alise> bonjour 22:09:14 <alise> zeroconf 22:09:17 <alise> jabber 22:09:17 <alise> thing 22:09:18 <Sgeo|Empathy> It's an Empathy thing, not an Ubuntu thing 22:09:25 <Sgeo|Empathy> Erm 22:09:28 <Sgeo|Empathy> Oh? 22:09:36 <Sgeo|Empathy> It's listed as an account type 22:09:36 <alise> or something 22:09:38 <alise> yes 22:09:41 <alise> other clients support it 22:09:47 <Sgeo|Empathy> AH 22:09:49 <alise> it may just be a libpurple thing, but no, iChat has it too 22:09:59 <fizzie> Yeah, it seems to be a serverless Jabber thing. 22:10:25 <Sgeo|Empathy> Passwordless too 22:10:44 <Sgeo|Empathy> Now, how does it work? 22:10:46 <fizzie> That sort of goes hand-in-hand with the serverlessness; where would you send the password to. 22:11:11 <Sgeo|Empathy> At least there hasn't been major crashes yet 22:11:21 <fizzie> Zeroconf is done with multicast-DNS-driven service discovery, I assume that's how it works too. 22:12:00 <alise> Yes. 22:12:23 <Sgeo|Empathy> BRB, restarting, in the hopes that my installed software stays installed somehow 22:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> http://pastebin.com/R6pkvHBF LW is beginning to disturb me. 22:15:57 <alise> Which part, exactly? 22:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, that response by EY would be more in place in a SF/horror story than any kind of rationalist discussion. 22:16:09 <alise> Also, you could just link. 22:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The second post, by EY. 22:16:22 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAIK that thread has been deleted. 22:16:46 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 22:16:46 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:16:57 <alise> I think it's safe to assume EY is at least slightly autistic, and definitely ... abnormal, socially. 22:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I have _no_ effing idea what they're so scared of. 22:17:15 <SgeoN1> There's some kind of sick joke going on where sometimes, it refuses to see the USB stick 22:17:21 <alise> That's part of the problem. Even if you don't agree with EY. 22:17:34 <alise> A non-Friendly AI being created is the worst possible thing that could happen. Ever. 22:17:47 <alise> I don't think I agree with EY there. Although I see part of his point after filtering out the rage. 22:17:52 <Gregor> Fuck, I just made one. 22:18:04 <alise> But everyone agrees that a non-Friendly AI is the Worst Possible Thing. 22:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> "everyone" ← qualify that? 22:18:39 <alise> Well, anyone who's actually thought about it -- you know, rationally. 22:18:41 <Gregor> Naw, a non-Friendly AI is just the next evolutionary step. At that point humans will be obsolete. 22:18:51 <Gregor> We are the Borg. 22:18:57 <fizzie> Hey now, that's not so bad: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png -- it's the same "features from 2000-message sets" confusion matrix, but with a different classifier than esoconff.png. 22:18:58 <alise> Gregor: A non-Friendly AI would not become the Borg. 22:19:06 <alise> Non-Friendly != evil; non-Friendly is worse. 22:19:09 <Gregor> alise: Hence the quote :P 22:19:29 <Gregor> The Borg aren't evil. 22:19:30 <alise> A non-Friendly AI wouldn't actively decide to wipe us out, it would just see no problem with doing an action that happened to result in that, at all. 22:19:31 <Gregor> Just efficient. 22:19:38 <SgeoN1> Yay, Chromium stayed installed! 22:19:40 <Gregor> Same with the Borg. 22:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so we wouldn't see it coming, or what? 22:19:59 <Gregor> The Borg don't seek to destroy a species that doesn't threaten them and isn't worth assimilating. 22:20:03 <alise> Gregor: If you said "I like paperclips" to a non-Friendly AI that listens to humans, it is *very possible* that it would just replace the entire universe with a paperclip pattern. 22:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh, 22:20:24 <alise> "I like paperclips" -> I'm trying to make them happy -> I like paperclips means paperclips are good -> 22:20:26 <alise> Make more paperclips 22:20:37 <alise> Best way to make more paperclips: Turn things into very small paperclips. 22:20:40 <alise> Begin. 22:21:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but surely it can reason enough to evaluate multiple factors? 22:21:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Elaborate. 22:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. it has a better view of the world than "paperclips". 22:21:45 <alise> Elaborate. 22:21:51 <alise> I never said that's how it viewed the world. 22:21:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: have you read Creating Friendly AI? 22:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I have not. 22:22:09 <alise> I'm not asking you to sign up to the Cult of Yudkowsky or anything, I'm just saying you should. 22:22:26 <alise> Because it's pretty important that nobody defends or builds any AI which isn't some form of Friendly. 22:22:44 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined. 22:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But AI != has power to paperclippise everything? 22:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, a computer on a desk has... limited paperclipping capability. 22:23:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Same applies to a huge mainframe. 22:23:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And that's the thing. 22:24:05 <alise> We are presuming that the AI is self-improving, since that's the threat. 22:24:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahhh.. 22:24:12 <alise> We are presuming that it surpasses human intelligence. 22:24:16 <alise> Now. 22:24:16 <Sgeo|Empathy> A sufficiently smart might be able to persuade humans to give it what it needs 22:24:28 <alise> How difficult would it be for a smarter-than-human AI to work up some money, and buy tech? 22:24:29 <alise> Or: 22:24:30 <Sgeo|Empathy> *sufficiently smart AI 22:24:31 <alise> To steal the tech. 22:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So the crucial thing is that we make it friendly *before* making it self-improving? 22:24:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 22:24:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I get it now... 22:24:47 <alise> Because once it's smarter than us -- or even as smart as us, if it's cunning and logical -- we can't control it. 22:25:05 <Gregor> http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/phi/1755781713.html ... lawl. 22:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm... 22:25:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely nuking it while it's still vulnerable would work? 22:25:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'll also just mention that a lot of very smart people have thought about this very hard for a very long time. :) 22:25:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not if it's replicated itself across the globe. 22:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence "vulnerable". 22:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, I see the point. 22:25:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And how do you know whether it's friendly or not? 22:26:00 <alise> You'll have no hope of understanding its data banks after it's mutated them itself. 22:26:08 <alise> And it'll be moving too fast for you to tell, anyway. 22:26:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely these are all arguments against making an AI at all? 22:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're this unsure, playing games with the whole of humanity is profoundly unethical. 22:26:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A Friendly AI has no such problems. And, well, that's saying that you should stop progress before it's dangerous. 22:26:50 <alise> We're not unsure if you get it right the first time. 22:26:52 <alise> Only if you don't. 22:26:59 <alise> Inventing fire was dangerous. 22:27:06 <alise> Fire changed everything. What if it was for the worst? 22:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you just said we can't tell it was friendly. 22:27:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Untrue. 22:27:18 <alise> I said that it's impossible to see the looming danger if it's self-improving. 22:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And how do you know whether it's friendly or not? 22:27:24 <alise> What I meant to say was: 22:27:28 <alise> ... 22:27:30 <alise> I worded it badly. 22:27:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, you know you need to nuke it if you have some code and it's not Friendly. 22:27:42 <alise> Before you even run it. 22:27:48 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:27:56 <alise> Friendly is an actual term, not just pointlessly-capitalised. 22:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So we need to have absolute, unshakable, complete proof of Friendliness before giving it power? 22:28:18 <Sgeo|Empathy> Before executing it 22:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, surely this stuff is just... obvious. 22:28:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|Empathy, with self-improvement, they're the same. 22:28:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:28:42 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> So we need to have absolute, unshakable, complete proof of Friendliness before giving it power? 22:28:43 <alise> Yes. 22:28:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eliezer was the first to give Friendliness a rigorous treatment, though. 22:29:02 <alise> To actually define what an AI has to be to be safe. 22:29:13 <alise> The system of supergoals and subgoals, that's all his. 22:29:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, yes, there is massive risk. Even if you're careful and prove it in so many ways. But if you get it right it's also the end of suffering, which is Kind of a Big Deal. 22:30:11 <alise> http://singinst.org/upload/CFAI.html 22:30:19 <alise> Is definitely a worthy read if you're at all interested in this stuff. 22:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm interested in it inasmuch as I want to stop my pathological worrying getting in the way of my life. 22:31:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I went through that too. Don't worry. 22:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> In any case, that LW thread still seems like a fairly irrational, fearful response. 22:31:58 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined. 22:32:14 <alise> Yes, well, this stuff is scary. I didn't read the thread due to the paste being badly-formatted. 22:32:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if you're that worried about nFAI, you should be doing everything to stop its slightest risk. 22:32:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. actively preventing AI research. 22:33:17 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:34:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No. Seriously. 22:34:27 <alise> AI research is not bad. 22:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I know that! 22:34:44 <alise> AI or the death of civilisation seems to be more or less inevitable in the long term. 22:34:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes! 22:34:52 <alise> So what you have to do is promote Friendliness. 22:34:58 <alise> Not stop AI research altogether. 22:35:04 <alise> Because if civilisation survives -- and I think it probably will... 22:35:08 <alise> There's gonna be AI. 22:35:10 <alise> Like nanotech. 22:35:10 <Phantom_Hoover> But deleting discussions on non-Friendliness? 22:35:23 <Sgeo|Empathy> Hopefully not like GLaDOS 22:35:26 <alise> Nobody does that. I don't know that thread on LW. Possibly it was a mistake. 22:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't that even *more* risky, if anything. 22:35:41 <alise> Although anyone outright advocating non-Friendly AI on Less Wrong is almost certain to get mauled. 22:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> That thread seems to have been deleted from LW itself. 22:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> On the grounds of risk to humanity. 22:35:59 <quintopia> GLaDOS was friendly before someone made her schizophrenic by changing important components 22:36:10 <alise> It's like saying "Why don't we try nuclear war?" as if everyone had nuclear weaponry in their house and it just required a huge amount of intelligence to fire them. 22:36:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Risk to humanity -- yes, inflated, I agree. 22:36:21 <alise> I wouldn't have done it. 22:36:25 <alise> But I see where he's coming from, you know? 22:36:58 <alise> Anyway. 22:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, deleting discussions *on the risks* on the grounds of risk is not going to help avoid the risks, IMO. 22:37:27 <alise> Actually most AI proponents think that developing nanotech is a very bad idea because of the immense destructive possibilities, and it's best to let a benevolent AI take care of developing it. 22:37:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Agreed. 22:37:34 <alise> You are probably right. 22:37:39 <alise> I am just defending the reasoning behind it, not the action. 22:37:51 <alise> I am not convinced that Yudkowsky actually sleeps at night. 22:38:01 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:38:03 <quintopia> what's the name of the dude that offers money to people if he, prentending to be an AI trapped on a disconnected computer, can't convince them to let him out in just a couple hours? 22:38:09 <alise> quintopia: Yudkowsky. 22:38:11 <Phantom_Hoover> And if he thinks an nFAI is that petty and malicious, surely the people attempting to stop its creation would be the first on its Infinite Torture List? 22:38:15 <alise> He doesn't do it any more, I don't think. 22:38:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Stop what's creation? 22:38:30 <quintopia> yeah he would eventually fail, and lose a lot of money 22:38:31 <Phantom_Hoover> nFAI. 22:38:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But nFAI is a bad thing... 22:38:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. by researching Friendliness. 22:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that's my point. 22:38:46 <alise> People trying to stop nFAI being created are his friends... :P 22:38:51 <alise> quintopia: Yeah, all $20. 22:38:57 <alise> quintopia: It's a thought experiment, anyway. 22:39:04 <alise> In the real situation the thing on the other end is many, many times smarter than you. 22:39:07 <alise> So it's guaranteed to win. 22:39:08 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has quit (Quit: Sgeo|Empathy). 22:39:08 <quintopia> could have sworn he offered more than $20 22:39:17 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined. 22:39:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, I'm going to reboot now. 22:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But he deleted that post because he thought that if an nFAI was created, it could rain down suffering on people it didn't like. 22:39:26 <Phantom_Hoover> NOOO 22:39:28 <quintopia> baibai 22:39:31 <alise> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 22:39:32 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:39:33 <Phantom_Hoover> DON'T LEAVE ME ALONE WITH MY THOUGHTS 22:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 22:39:44 <Sgeo|Empathy> I'm here for you 22:39:50 <quintopia> this is your thoughts speaking 22:39:54 <quintopia> we need your attention 22:40:03 <quintopia> don't listen to any of the other voices 22:40:09 <quintopia> pay attention right here 22:40:13 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, what should I do tomorrow? 22:40:21 <quintopia> if you lose your train of thought, you may never get it back 22:41:05 <zzo38> Don't lose your thought of train... Don't lose your thought of train... Don't lose your thought of train... Don't lose your thought of train... Don't lose more lot of rain... 22:41:16 <quintopia> keep it on its track and don't get derailed 22:41:57 <quintopia> zzo38! 22:42:14 <quintopia> tomorre do that this and the same? 22:42:40 <quintopia> gah. dropped packets like no one's biz. 22:42:42 <zzo38> Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. 22:43:21 -!- augur has joined. 22:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Extrapolating Moore's law infinitely as evidence for a singularity seems... dodgy. 22:46:18 <quintopia> yeah 22:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that we can't go much further down without bashing into fundamental constraints. 22:46:37 <quintopia> especially with the hard limits that have already been identified on the various Moore's Laws 22:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And the fact that the good old laws of thermodynamics have *already* started to cap processor clock speeds. 22:47:38 <quintopia> that one's of the limits 22:48:01 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, we can probably push quite a bit further, but not indefinitely. 22:48:28 <quintopia> there's also a hard limit imposed on transistor size, although if quantum scale gates become feasible and cost-effective, that'll go away 22:48:35 <quintopia> but even then, we have a size limit 22:49:26 <quintopia> adiabatic computing could go a long way toward stepping past current heat-related limitations 22:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's also the jetpack effect when extrapolating into the future. 22:49:37 <quintopia> it's really hard to imagine where we'll get to though 22:49:52 <quintopia> iiiii think we just said the same thing 22:50:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. 22:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> We'll be right with some things, but wrong with many, many more. 22:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's still worth consideration, since the costs and gains are so huge as to be impossible to ignore. 22:52:24 <quintopia> oh right and happy tlapd and stuff. shouldn't have forgotted that. 22:53:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Yarr, I be missin' TLAPD! 22:54:00 <quintopia> is there a variation on asimov's laws that doesn't drive AIs insane? 22:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> This be far more disconcertin' than any of this FAI stuff! 22:55:01 <quintopia> you can be a pirate and still talk about bots 22:55:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Yarr, OK. 22:55:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I also be thinkin' that nanotech be highly overrated. 22:56:01 <coppro> lies 22:56:16 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, why be ye sayin' this? 22:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> We almost certainly won't be havin' nanoscale construction machines. 22:57:06 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:57:23 <coppro> I be thinkin ye wrong about tha 22:57:31 <coppro> and it bein a matter of school pride 22:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, macroscale von Neumann probes be plausible, but packin' the complexity necessary for such a feat into nigh-molecular scales is so implausible with current technology that it be meanin'less to speculate. 22:58:42 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 22:59:41 <SgeoN1> Alise, better to wait for some more time until I get the external mount, or as soon as possible, despite not having the external mount 22:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I be havin' a horrible feelin' that alise will start arguin' with me over this, and that not be particularly pleasant for those in the same time zone who be havin' conserrrvative sleep schedules. 23:00:09 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, he not be on right now. 23:00:36 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: why be ye callin' the lassy a he? 23:00:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Be ye still tryin' ta recoverrr yer hard drive? 23:00:43 <quintopia> lol 23:00:52 <SgeoN1> PH, what's your suggestion? 23:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, I not be bothered to keep track of everyone's pronoun requests. 23:01:13 <Gregor> "Come now, would I sell my own granny for $1,000?" "I don't know, would you?" "Of course I would!" 23:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> That be my line, and I be stickin' to it. 23:01:23 <quintopia> coppro: why you callin' the laddie a lassie? 23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, have ye got the hard drive out of tha computarrr? 23:01:48 <coppro> quintopia: arrrr, ye don't know the legend of alise, do yer? 23:02:05 <quintopia> nope. i hope it's a good story 23:02:15 <SgeoN1> It's been out for a while 23:02:33 <coppro> quintopia: it be best told by the girl herself 23:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, it be complex, and best be told by the 'man 'imself. 23:03:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:03:15 <quintopia> wow 23:03:18 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:03:18 <quintopia> sounds confusing 23:03:26 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: clearly yer didn't be learnin' the morrral o' the tale 23:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, narr, I not be. 23:03:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oerrrrjan 23:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> *! 23:04:04 <oerjan> g'vning 23:04:21 <coppro> oerjan: and an 'earrrrty 'ello to you too! 23:05:14 <SgeoN1> Is the HD actually accumulating damage right now? 23:05:25 <coppro> shiver me timbers! 23:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, I not be knowin' 23:06:44 <Phantom_Hoover> If it be spinnin', you can't be surrrre. 23:06:50 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:08:25 <zzo38> I added in PicoC into Enhanced CWEB now, so that you can define codes to run at compile time (for CTANGLE only), and you can make a function lossy$() that is executed instead of typing the identifier "lossy" into the output. And, it works. 23:08:42 <oerjan> <quintopia> yeah he would eventually fail, and lose a lot of money 23:08:51 <oerjan> i recall he already failed some times 23:09:01 <quintopia> huh 23:09:04 <quintopia> i never heard that 23:09:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I be laughin' out loud at that. 23:09:13 <SgeoN1> Also, I have no plans on letting the GUI start if I have the HD just be inside the comp 23:09:14 <oerjan> he just hadn't put that on the main page for the challenge 23:09:25 <oerjan> but it was in some comment he made 23:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yarr, be tharr a link? 23:09:52 <oerjan> i don't recall where it was 23:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Arr, that not be good enough! 23:10:38 <oerjan> ah it's that day again. actually it already ended here. 23:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oerrrjan, be ye in GMT+1? 23:11:04 <oerjan> +2 23:11:25 <oerjan> 00:10 23:11:35 <SgeoN1> Parted Magic shouldn't take that long to boot, really. 23:11:37 <fizzie> 'ts been over for over an hour here already; 'ts +3 here. 23:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Yarr, pirates not be regarrdin' time zones! 23:12:44 <quintopia> in my book, it lasts 2 days, from the moment it begins at the international date line, to the moment it ends on the other side of the same 23:13:00 <quintopia> my logic bein' that a true pirate should no' claim a home port! 23:13:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Yarr, for pirates be intarrrnational! 23:13:59 <fizzie> Pirates be so arrrrrrogant folk, all about making everyone talk like one. 23:14:20 <quintopia> i actually would rather be a pirates of penzance type pirate 23:14:28 <quintopia> so i can talk like a lord gone astray 23:15:32 <pikhq> quintopia: I suggest ye learn a proper West Country accent! 23:16:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, yarr, whar be tha West Countrrry? 23:16:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Pirates be from tha sea! 23:16:31 <quintopia> PROPAH 23:17:15 <pikhq> quintopia: No, West Country is rhotic. And the stereotypical pirate accent. 23:17:27 <pikhq> quintopia: So. "Prroperrr" 23:18:23 <quintopia> lame 23:18:38 <pikhq> It was also used in Pirate of Penzance. 23:18:44 <quintopia> i know 23:18:53 <quintopia> but they were effecting it 23:19:03 <pikhq> Yar. 23:19:07 <quintopia> pretense and all 23:19:31 <quintopia> i want to be a dainty pirate captain 23:19:33 <quintopia> or a sky pirate! 23:19:38 <quintopia> like articulate jim! 23:19:50 <pikhq> Fine, fine. RP. 23:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yarr, ye not be a trrrue pirate! 23:22:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I also be less surre on whetharr civilisation be survivin' than alise. 23:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> By this point, a single fall would be the end for a very very very long time. Yarr. 23:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Since we be usin' up all the easily accessible resources. 23:25:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: found a link to a discussion (with more links): http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6k95z/a_transhuman_ai_would_just_convince_you_to_let_it/c04360q 23:27:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Thanks. 23:28:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: On the other hand, we are leaving *around* a lot of accessible resources. 23:28:32 <oerjan> google conspires to make the mentions of failure rather hard to find if you just search for "yudkowksy aibox" :( 23:28:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Not particularly. 23:28:46 <pikhq> If civilization fell, the next civilization would have a number of things easy. 23:28:54 <oerjan> (especially if you don't _know_ about the failures) 23:28:58 <pikhq> For instance: metal would not need to be mined. 23:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but things like coal and oil, which fuelled our technological development, will be much harder to get. 23:30:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And a pile of rust, which is really all that would remain of exposed structures after a surprisingly short time, is not very useful. 23:31:22 <pikhq> Coal and oil were only really primary fuels for the past, oh, hundred years. 23:31:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:03 <pikhq> And even concerning coal: for many purposes, it's merely *more convenient* than the alternative. 23:32:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, which is also the major period of technological advance. 23:32:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: perhaps it will take a longer _time_ than the industrial revolution because of lack of coal and oil. but there _are_ still environmentally clean energy sources, such as windmills. 23:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> We went from abacuses to quantum computers in around that timeframe. 23:33:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but it still is plausible that an alternative energy source would be found. 23:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, can you imagine the Industrial Revolution happening with windmills? 23:33:15 -!- augur has joined. 23:33:35 <oerjan> but is going slower even a bad thing? the breakneck speed might be why we got into this much trouble in the first place 23:33:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Dude, "past 100 years" *post-dates* the Industrial Revolution. 23:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, yes. 23:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> History fail. 23:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> But anyway, it's not at all certain that civilisation will survive on Earth. 23:34:33 <pikhq> The Industrial Revolution could have *easily* happened with wood instead of coal. And a lot of it was actually powered by windmills and water wheels anyways. 23:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> At least with humans. 23:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I concede the point. 23:35:32 <pikhq> So, even assuming no alternative fuel sources could be found (not *that* likely), we'd still get up to Industrial Revolution level tech with mostly renewable/recyclable resources still left. 23:36:15 <pikhq> And I strongly suspect that one could build up to nuclear power from there. 23:37:01 <Phantom_Hoover> This AI box thing is starting to infuriate me. 23:37:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, what are you trying to prove by not revealing the nature of the arguments? 23:38:03 <quintopia> if he were still doing it, i'd take the challenge and then reveal the arguments. 23:38:19 <oerjan> i thought it was to prevent "I would never have fallen for that" arguments, i think he said as much 23:38:22 <quintopia> i could een do it without lying, by making someone else doing the promising not to part 23:39:12 <oerjan> "I would never have fallen for that" _is_ a major way of human self-delusion, after all 23:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yes, but why not *show* what he fell for? 23:40:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I can see no rational reason not to do so. 23:40:42 * oerjan is _much_ more infuriated by the _apparent_ hiding of the failed experiments, in case you didn't guess 23:40:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. 23:41:26 <oerjan> although i _suppose_ that could be just an artifact of google's pagerank 23:41:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I also think the gatekeeper is incapable of showing anything meaningful. 23:41:55 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined. 23:41:57 <EOF> Phantom_Hoover: 23:41:59 <EOF> Phantom_Hoover: 23:42:12 <quintopia> EOF: 23:42:14 <quintopia> EOF: 23:42:19 <EOF> quintopia: 23:42:22 <EOF> quintopia: 23:42:31 * Sgeo|Empathy feels like ending this chat 23:42:49 * EOF feels like shooting himself 23:42:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:42:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: but i _think_ yudkowsky's basic belief is that an AI would be so resourceful that saying you "would never have fallen for" a particular argument _is_ a dangerous delusion 23:43:18 <oerjan> because the AI could have used a plethora of other methods 23:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but this experiment has little to no bearing on any real situation. 23:43:38 <oerjan> i guess that's true 23:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The point might stand; it might not. This experiment is completely useless. 23:43:55 <quintopia> thus we should make sure to have a friendly AI before a malevolent AI gets wise enough to convince its gatekeeper to let it out 23:44:02 <quintopia> then we could have a titan clash of the AIs 23:44:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AI Wars! 23:44:13 * quintopia is reminded of Raindbow's End 23:44:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:44:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Exclusive to BBC 2! 23:44:35 -!- SgeoN2 has joined. 23:44:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (It clashes with Eastenders, so it can't go on BBC 1) 23:45:23 <Sgeo|Empathy> You know what 23:45:28 <Sgeo|Empathy> Wait 23:45:37 <oerjan> quintopia: a friendly AI would simply prevent an evil one from ever being built, surely 23:45:43 <Sgeo|Empathy> Can I start Ubuntu at the commandline, then from there start x? 23:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course, *without knowing the effing discourse between the participants, the experiment is utterly stupid* 23:45:52 <quintopia> also we need a time machine so we can preemptiveill any scientists that eventually turn out to work on creating malevolent AI 23:46:04 <quintopia> +li ki 23:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, malevolent != nFAI. 23:46:10 <quintopia> s/i/y/ 23:46:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's like publishing an experiment without publishing the data. 23:46:29 <pikhq> In fact, it *is precisely that*! 23:46:29 <quintopia> oerjan: if it had the power to 23:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, exactly. 23:46:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Not rational *at all*. 23:46:57 <pikhq> About as valid as "I have an elegant proof of this that the margin is too small to contain." 23:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The kind of thing Ben Goldacre spends ages picking apart, in fact. 23:47:18 <Phantom_Hoover> But don't expect them to admit it. 23:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway. 23:47:35 * Phantom_Hoover → can't sleep, AI will eat me. 23:47:39 <quintopia> pikhq: at least in this case the experimental result has been verified by several individuals, so it is somewhat more trustworthy than fermat's proof 23:48:18 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:48:42 <quintopia> indeed, i would argue that in this case, it is like publishing the data without publishing the experiment 23:48:50 <Sgeo|Empathy> Phantom_Hoover: Which is the better ddrescue? 23:48:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: of course yudkowsky and his ilk _are_ fanatically afraid of evil ais, psychologically so even if they are correct 23:48:57 <quintopia> we know how many people fell for it, but not what the actual methodology was 23:49:13 <pikhq> quintopia: Still absolutely unvalid, though. 23:49:47 <quintopia> pikhq: irreproducible at least, but we can imagine the techniques used at least 23:49:49 <oerjan> so you could suspect him of being disingenious on purpose 23:50:01 <pikhq> quintopia: Irreproducible == INVALID 23:50:24 <quintopia> pikhq: the results are NOT invalid, they are just not confirmable. there is a subtle difference 23:50:33 <oerjan> bah did he leave 23:50:46 <pikhq> If you can't reproduce it it's invalid. 23:51:11 <Sgeo|Empathy> No answer? 23:51:16 <quintopia> they can reproduce it. it's just not independently reproducible 23:51:51 <pikhq> Which makes it invalid. 23:51:54 <oerjan> Sgeo|Empathy: his last comment was probably a humoristic way of saying he went to bed 23:52:01 <quintopia> i really don't like your definition 23:52:09 <pikhq> Then you really don't like science. 23:52:20 <Sgeo|Empathy> Oh 23:52:24 * Sgeo|Empathy didn't even see it 23:52:30 <quintopia> that doesn't even follow 23:52:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:52:35 <Sgeo|Empathy> But I can just go into the console when X is starting, I guess 23:52:39 <oerjan> Sgeo|Empathy: hey i did the same thing :D 23:53:07 <Sgeo|Empathy> I guess, before doing anything else, I should figure out the exact commands I'll be using 23:53:25 <quintopia> you can't invalidate a result by not explaining what the result was. it's still a result. it just isn't a widely understood one. 23:53:36 <pikhq> quintopia: Their claims are as scientifically legitimate as publishing data purpoting that saying magic words (they won't say which) summons God 10 times out of 10. 23:54:13 <quintopia> in other words, possibly completely legitimate and valid, but we'll never know if that's the case 23:54:20 <quintopia> exactly what i was saying 23:54:28 <pikhq> Precisely. And that *makes it invalid*. 23:54:42 <Sgeo|Empathy> There's no reason to not let X load while I do the ddrescue stuff, right? 23:54:46 <quintopia> and not knowing whether god exists makes god not exist? 23:54:51 <quintopia> all agnostics are atheists? 23:55:11 <Sgeo|Empathy> correct != valid 23:55:14 <pikhq> It makes it invalid *as an experiment*. 23:55:35 <pikhq> An experiment can readily have correct results while still being invalid. 23:55:48 <pikhq> Much like a proof can have correct results while still being invalid. 23:55:57 <quintopia> this confuses me greatly. how is it that an invalid experiment could *suddenly become valid* just as soon as its results are published? 23:56:20 <quintopia> i could see an unconfirmed but valid experiment being confirmed valid on this occasion 23:56:24 <zzo38> quintopia: It depend what you meant by "agnostics" or "atheists", but I consider it different. 23:56:35 <quintopia> as well as an unconfirmed invalid experiment being confirmed invalid 23:56:43 <quintopia> but not invalid->valid 23:56:56 <zzo38> I also consider different that the different athesists and different agnostics even have different opinions of their own atheism/agnosticism. 23:57:00 <quintopia> zzo38: can i get on your speech analysis plot? 23:57:07 <zzo38> (I myself, am agnostic, if it cares) 23:57:28 <zzo38> quintopia: I have no speech analysis plot. If I make one though, everyone relevant will be on it (including you). 23:57:37 <pikhq> quintopia: In order to be valid as an experiment, it *must be testable*. This is about as essential to science as the idea that reality can be observed. 23:57:40 <quintopia> oshit 23:58:09 <quintopia> pikhq: this is a tewstable hypothesis, and it has been tested. independently verifiable != testable 23:58:11 <Sgeo|Empathy> Should I set "Spin down hard disks when possible"? 23:58:11 <pikhq> Without being testable, an experiment might as well be the rantings of a drunk hobo. 23:58:18 <zzo38> pikhq: You are correct about experiments. If the experiment does nothing, how can you do anything relevant with it? 23:58:27 <quintopia> zzo38: who was it who posted the speech analysis plots :/ 23:58:47 <zzo38> quintopia: Look it up in the logs, I don't remember either 23:58:57 <pikhq> quintopia: Independently verifiable is a necessary but not sufficient condition of being testable. 23:59:24 <quintopia> pikhq: indeed, if an independent group can replicate their results using their own slightly-different methods, would the experiments together still be collectively invalid to you? 23:59:36 <pikhq> If they don't publish their methods? 23:59:41 <quintopia> yes 23:59:46 <pikhq> As far as I'm concerned, it's a second group of drunk hobos.