00:00:17 Or brought in by the SCP foundation. 00:00:18 SeGo: we're not 00:00:21 actually 00:00:25 we're talking about something completely different 00:00:44 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:00:55 This _has_ to be one of my practice recordins 00:00:58 *recordings 00:01:10 NO THE PAUSE BUTTON IS BROKEN 00:01:19 * Vonlebio twitches 00:01:46 I feel like I have a superpower 00:01:50 I'm going to take a long time to recover from that. 00:02:07 The last half minute or so isn't that bad 00:02:38 And neither is the first 23 seconds or so 00:02:42 SeGo: Unfortunately, no human being can wait until then. 00:02:52 Total skeletal collapse occurs a few seconds beforehand. 00:02:56 I can listen to it just fine 00:02:56 I've actually reached up to 1.35. 00:02:56 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:03:07 Well, I recorded it :P 00:03:13 Now, to never ever let anyone hear it. 00:03:44 It might be the microphone..; 00:03:49 OK, I'm going to try for another 20 seconds. AT ONCE. 00:04:09 Vonlebio, if all 20 seconds don't include singing, it's cheating 00:04:15 AAAa 00:04:21 IT WAS ALL SINGING 00:04:33 Gregor: filebin.ca 00:04:36 You know what you must do. 00:04:42 I'll do it if two other people do :P 00:04:48 Gregor, counting me? 00:04:49 Gregor: What, sing opera? 00:04:51 SeGo: No. 00:04:56 I don't even know any opera to sing. 00:04:56 alise: Sing something, record it, upload it. 00:04:58 It can be short. 00:05:05 Gregor: Tell me how to get Ubuntu to recognise my microphone. 00:05:15 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 00:05:24 alise: Is it in arecord -L? 00:05:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:05:34 Wamanuz, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg 00:05:39 If you want to go deaf 00:05:47 SeGo: So now you're just being evil then :P 00:05:52 alise, see link in /msg 00:05:55 Hey, I included a warning 00:06:04 Gregor: I don't know. 00:06:09 No. 00:06:10 No output. 00:06:17 When I record with the default input, it just has stuff that sounds like background noise. 00:06:17 `arecord -L 00:06:21 Like real background noise. 00:06:26 As if I recorded it and said nothing. 00:06:33 I feel strangely desensitised by now... 00:06:39 alise, *prod* 00:06:51 No output. 00:07:56 Did I at least pronounce Majere correctly? 00:08:03 Wha? 00:08:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:08:14 "It's clear I've gone Majere" 00:08:15 SeGo: DON'T DO IT 00:08:24 ...? 00:08:27 SeGo, noöne is going to listen to it *again*. 00:08:48 -!- FIQ has joined. 00:08:55 I've listened to it several times already 00:09:07 EXCEPT YOU 00:09:08 SeGo: You're obviously desensitized by being you. 00:09:19 I reached the end! 00:09:23 And he may have lost the ability to have taste in music. 00:09:28 Now, to kill myself. 00:09:51 Vonlebio, without pausing? 00:10:07 I have been listening to Final Fantasy music instead of this madness. 00:10:10 Vast improvement. 00:10:12 Gregor, when did I say that. 00:10:23 *smack* 00:10:50 Except OH GOD I HAVE THE FFX2 SOUNDTRACK 00:10:52 NO MAKE IT STOP 00:10:54 Oh, now I get it. 00:11:02 THE PAIN AND AGONY AND WHY IS YUNAS THEME UPBEAT 00:11:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:11:12 pikhq, is my karaoke better?? 00:11:24 pikhq, listen to SeGo singing. It makes *everything* good by comparison. 00:11:41 -!- SeGo has changed nick to Sgeo. 00:11:54 Like miraculin! 00:12:14 Vonlebio: I don't think you realise the scope of the tone change here. 00:12:30 pikhq, probably. 00:12:56 Vonlebio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcSPrk2LfNM <- Yuna's Theme from FFX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjYbJ6u05yQ <- Yuna's Theme from FFX-2. 00:12:59 Any questions? 00:13:36 http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-youtube.php <- Gregor's Theme from this summer or something :P 00:13:43 Silly link ... 00:13:54 * Vonlebio asked a friend to listen to that. HE THOUGHT IT WAS ME SINGING 00:14:00 I AM MORTALLY OFFENDED 00:14:26 X-D 00:15:14 * pikhq strongly hates FFX-2. And hates the music more. 00:15:27 I just hate the concept. 00:15:36 Oh, it's FFXI? No, it's FFX ... part two. 00:15:51 Gregor: You played FFX, right? 00:15:57 I haven't played any FF since 8. 00:16:11 Sit down and play FFX now. 00:16:13 NAO 00:16:36 Oh, and maybe play FFXII simultaneously; very little interaction required. 00:16:45 I don't have the relevant consoles. 00:16:51 s/consoles/console/ 00:16:53 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:16:55 Get a PS-2. NAO 00:17:04 I thought XII was PS3 00:17:09 No, that's XIII. 00:17:12 Which I also dislike. 00:17:17 haha, wow 00:17:29 an Ubuntu-using friend-of-a-friend is trying to prove that he knows more about computers than me 00:17:35 XII sucked ass at gameplay, but had a decent story. 00:17:45 Well. It more *lacked* gameplay. 00:17:50 and I quote (sec) 00:17:54 You programmed the PCs. 00:18:17 "unless he formatted the whole drive. partitioning the drive into 3 sections, 60gb, 60 gband 32gb (NTFS, ext4 and ext4 respectively), doing that requires about 50% more knowledge than a plain install" 00:18:24 Aaaand then... Let them do all combat automatically. 00:18:33 yes, that is correct: someone is trying to out-nerd me with (probably graphical) PARTITIONING 00:18:43 And then they made it encourage grinding. 00:18:51 In short: play another game while playing it. 00:18:59 alise: Facepalm. 00:19:30 okay i've told him to come in here to see if he can understand even half a word of it 00:19:34 so talk technical guys! 00:19:40 Does PSOX count? 00:19:41 and i quote some more: "i'm sure he just wants to seem big by using multiple technical words 00:19:44 *words" 00:19:49 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 00:19:56 Oh 00:20:11 Gregor: Anyways. FFX-2. Let's take a somewhat sad game, and make a spin-off. Wherein the female characters become the *only* playable characters, and they dress like strippers. 00:20:26 pikhq: Do they at least strip? 00:20:36 Gregor: No, but they change clothes in combat. 00:20:49 alise, is he coming? 00:20:52 apparently he can't even program lol 00:20:53 But is there any nudity in it? 00:20:54 Vonlebio: dunno 00:20:57 we'll have to see 00:21:01 Oh, I thought Wamanuz was him 00:21:02 Gregor: Oh, and did I mention that they're somehow pop music sensations? Only 5 years after a very very strong religious opposition to ALL TECHNOLOGY ended? 00:21:06 Gregor: No. 00:21:14 Everyone, switch to Turing machines1 00:21:22 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:21:43 Is there a C-to-TM compiler yet? 00:21:44 I can't even figure out what to do with a damaged HD 00:21:49 Other than ask in here... 00:21:51 Vonlebio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcSPrk2LfNM <- Yuna's Theme from FFX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjYbJ6u05yQ <- Yuna's Theme from FFX-2. <-- nice music (at least the first one, haven't got around to the second yet) 00:21:52 wow 00:21:55 he just dissed double booting 00:21:56 and then 00:21:59 "no... merey installing 3 os's on a single hard drive hence the partitioning" 00:22:04 alise, GET HIM IN HERE NOW 00:22:04 Vorpal: FFX had very good music. It's a Final Fantasy game. 00:22:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:22:09 pikhq, true 00:22:09 ....? 00:22:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:22:14 What does he think dual-booting is? 00:22:14 double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but -- 00:22:17 yet triple-booting 00:22:19 IS THE SHIT 00:22:32 With emphasis on "shit" 00:22:33 "to be honest... intelligence isnt just how much you know... it is how you use it, and he isnt using it sociably, thats for sure" 00:22:53 double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but -- <-- of "CPU space"? 00:22:54 wtf 00:23:00 bear in mind i haven't actually talked to him 00:23:02 disk space maybe 00:23:04 alise, quick! Play Sgeo singing at him! 00:23:05 he just insulted my intelligence when someone else brought me up 00:23:06 but cpu space? 00:23:08 and then i retaliated 00:23:22 Vorpal: i dunno if he said "space" 00:23:24 It'll reduce him to a gibbering wreck! 00:23:29 attacks on my intelligence *really* fucking irritate me. 00:23:41 Vorpal: Heck, you could just do a comparison of the opening CGs to get a full grasp of the astounding difference between the games. 00:24:06 pikhq, ? 00:24:21 Erm, opening... Cutscenes. That. 00:24:26 ah 00:24:41 pikhq, okay the second one is shitty for a game. 00:24:50 alise, IS HE HERE YET 00:24:50 at least in the ff genre 00:24:53 How do we know we're not all delusional? 00:25:02 And we incorrectly think we are capable and intelligent? 00:25:03 Vonlebio: he's not coming, i don't think 00:25:06 "Double-booting" is presumably booting one OS on one core, and one OS on the other core ... simultaneously. 00:25:13 Gregor: er i meant dual-booting 00:25:21 alise: I'm trying to explain his "logic" :P 00:25:22 Sgeo, because noöne would delude themselves into thinking that your karaoke exists. 00:25:42 It must exist objectively. 00:26:38 pikhq, different composers I presume? 00:26:55 pikhq, I can't imagine that whoever made the first one would sink so low as to do the second one 00:26:56 Yeah, FFX was mostly Nobuou Uematsu. FFX-2 was some J-pop artist. 00:27:25 pikhq, the second one is a total disaster for a fantasy game 00:28:14 Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvIp4tRIUJI FFX intro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjldKQx3Kag FFX-2 intro. 00:28:54 * Sgeo wonders if his singing could be used as a WMD 00:29:13 BRB 00:29:20 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|SomeonesAtM. 00:29:33 FFX-2 *starts with a fucking pop concert*. 00:29:53 -!- Sgeo|SomeonesAtM has changed nick to Sgeo. 00:30:12 pikhq, what about the ffx game after that? 00:30:23 Vorpal: What FFX game after FFX-2? 00:30:37 pikhq, oh? there isn't one? 00:30:49 After that abortion of a game? 00:30:57 pikhq, did they abort it? 00:30:58 huh? 00:31:18 No, I'm using "abortion" as an insult, and a suggestion that they should have aborted it. 00:31:27 ah 00:31:35 Or should do so post-term. With a sledgehammer. 00:33:28 And whoever's responsible for the dressphere system should be executed. 00:33:45 dressphere? 00:34:10 pikhq, the FFX-2 intro is unwatchable 00:34:35 Sgeo: It has a clothing-based combat system. Honest-to-God. 00:35:00 pikhq, what does that even mean? 00:35:13 Vorpal: You change clothing to change jobs. 00:35:18 pikhq, I want that GPU used for FFX2 though. That is some realistic graphics. 00:35:21 pikhq, huh 00:36:20 pikhq, and from what I can remember of the final fantasy series that pop concert is just _competely_ anachronistic 00:36:57 @pl \x y z -> x z $ y z 00:36:57 ap 00:37:04 Grrr. 00:37:32 @pl \m n f x -> m (n f) x 00:37:32 (.) 00:37:59 @pl \a b f -> f a b 00:37:59 flip . flip id 00:38:17 @pl \p -> p (\x y -> x) 00:38:17 ($ const) 00:38:29 CLEVER 00:38:36 * Vonlebio → sleep 00:41:02 lol 00:41:05 he pussied out 00:41:11 he's just being completely normal now he's actually face to face with me 00:41:25 retard + loss of indirection = nice person 00:42:45 alise, eh? 00:43:01 Vorpal: the aforementioned idiot 00:43:02 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:43:12 "unless he formatted the whole drive. partitioning the drive into 3 sections, 60gb, 60 gband 32gb (NTFS, ext4 and ext4 respectively), doing that requires about 50% more knowledge than a plain install" 00:43:13 yes, that is correct: someone is trying to out-nerd me with (probably graphical) PARTITIONING 00:43:14 alise, with the CPU area? 00:43:16 and i quote some more: "i'm sure he just wants to seem big by using multiple technical words 00:43:19 apparently he can't even program lol 00:43:23 wow 00:43:25 alise, gband? 00:43:25 he just dissed double booting 00:43:26 and then 00:43:26 "no... merey installing 3 os's on a single hard drive hence the partitioning" 00:43:32 double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but -- 00:43:34 yet triple-booting 00:43:34 IS THE SHIT 00:43:36 "to be honest... intelligence isnt just how much you know... it is how you use it, and he isnt using it sociably, thats for sure" 00:43:39 the end 00:44:17 alise, what the fuck is "gband" 00:46:03 "gb and" 00:46:22 of course all of this is because i'm ~zomg young~ 00:46:33 if i was 25 he would have just shut up and accepted it 00:46:38 but 15 year olds are INHERENTLY LESS INTELLIGENT :) 00:51:48 alise, and how old is he? 00:52:04 alise, also you said face to face? You meant him in RL? 00:52:15 face to face as in not through the friend of whom he is a friend 00:52:29 i dunno how old he is, only a few years older than me at most 00:57:30 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:58:30 -!- augur has joined. 00:59:42 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 01:00:23 alise, that dell btw, built in speakers are way better than that of my thinkpad. However, the headphone jack is *noisy* 01:00:36 for headphones my laptop beats it 01:00:55 of course my desktop with SB Live 5.1 beats both easily 01:01:26 oh and mute remove the noise 01:04:27 oh I see headphones are at 100 01:04:33 changing that helps 01:04:55 still a bit noisy 01:07:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:09:50 alise, why haven't you resumed reading FS? 01:10:02 Or résuméd it, for that matter? 01:10:27 taking a break 01:11:06 alise, why haven't you accepted Cthulhu as your Lord and God Almighty? 01:13:28 quintopia: because IPU 01:13:47 alise, IPU? 01:14:56 invisible pink-- 01:15:43 you're a True Believer, eh 01:16:22 I dropped IPU for FSM 01:16:31 FSM does not have a contradiction inherent in the name itself 01:16:47 Just like there is no contradiction inherent in the letters G o d 01:17:01 alise, invisible pink what? 01:17:04 unicorn 01:17:08 ah 01:17:10 (BBHH) 01:17:15 I dropped IPU for FSM 01:17:15 FSM does not have a contradiction inherent in the name itself 01:17:15 Just like there is no contradiction inherent in the letters G o d 01:17:18 stupidest fucking rationale ever 01:17:23 the whole point of these is to be ridiculous 01:17:38 and the FSM is irritating, because its inventor seems to think he's the first to think of such a wacky idea, a fake god! 01:17:48 ...he does? o.O 01:18:17 well, he seemed to be pleased with himself about it in the first letter. 01:18:29 Vorpal: Actually, a pop concert merely existing isn't anachronistic for the *series*. 01:18:38 Vorpal: Just that game. 01:19:13 Actually, more like "that point in the timeline of the game". 01:19:25 * Vorpal secretly replaces alise's IRC client next time he goes to sleep with MS Comic Chat, locked in comic mode 01:19:27 Would have not been an abuse of the timeline at the start of FFX's storyline. 01:19:32 Just an abuse of all taste. 01:19:42 pikhq, hm okay 01:20:16 I'm just going to say that FFX also had, near the very start, some heavy metal. And it fit. 01:20:24 mhm 01:20:30 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:20:57 I worship the invisible pink flying spaghetti goddess of the Old Ones, Discordia! 01:20:58 Dear Firefox: When I click a tab, I do _not_ intend to close it 01:20:59 (oh, and the very end. It was also boss music. :D) 01:21:06 Discordia fhtagn! 01:21:52 Sgeo: sounds like a bug. My copy doesn't put the close buttons on inactive tabs. 01:22:25 Neither does mine 01:22:33 It just thinks I clicked to close for some reason 01:22:54 I'm going to attempt to watch some SGU 01:23:16 Is there a way to see what packages are taking up lots of disk space? 01:23:33 Sgeo, what distro? 01:23:47 Ubuntu 10.04 LTS 01:23:48 you could list all packages with size presumably 01:23:50 then sort it 01:23:54 Vorpal: In fact, here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GjvRAJaEc0 01:24:11 Sgeo, don't have any ubuntu system turned on atm, but should be possible with dpkg or such 01:25:07 Vorpal: In fact, here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GjvRAJaEc0 <-- which game? 01:25:28 FFX 01:25:37 Sgeo: try dpkg -I 01:25:42 if you still have the archive 01:25:54 pikhq, was that the one with the good themes? 01:25:57 Yes. 01:25:58 And yes, that *is* Nobuo Uematsu doing metal. 01:26:01 the size of the archive should correlate to the unpacked size 01:26:08 pikhq, a lot higher 3D quality than the intro of it? 01:26:26 The intro was done by the PS2 hardware; this is pre-rendered. 01:26:34 Aaaand the very start of the plot. 01:26:43 ah 01:26:58 -!- Henoheno has joined. 01:27:17 Vorpal: BTW, you should totally play this game. It is by far my favorite Final Fantasy game. 01:27:19 -!- Henoheno has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 01:27:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Client Quit). 01:27:48 * Sgeo goes to watch some SGU 01:28:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:28:10 pikhq, I doubt I have the hardware for it 01:28:23 A PS2 is cheap. 01:28:26 pikhq, and: spoony bard. You can't get better than that 01:28:31 As is FFX. 01:28:37 pikhq, I'm not going to get a PS2 01:28:39 just no 01:28:46 There's a lot of good JRPGs for the PS2. 01:28:51 A *lot*. 01:28:52 pikhq, besides I doubt it would be easy to find one around here 01:28:55 what's wrong with ps2s 01:29:01 Vorpal: Should be. 01:29:02 besides you could emulate (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no) 01:29:14 Worst case scenario, buy one new. 01:29:24 alise, I suspect it would be non-trivial to emulate 01:29:24 a new ps2 costs like 3p :P 01:29:31 Vorpal: near-impossible with current hardware 01:29:36 what with that fancy emotion engine crap 01:29:36 alise, indeed 01:29:37 alise: It's $99 for literally brand-new. 01:29:42 pikhq: so 3p 01:29:44 alise, emotion engine? 01:29:47 Ah, right. 01:29:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_Engine 01:29:56 Vorpal: The PS2 had an absurd number of CPUs. 01:31:22 Main CPU, two vector CPUs, a general-purpose GPU, two audio CPUs, and an IO CPU (the Playstation I CPU). 01:31:38 Yes, to emulate a PS2 you need to emulate a PS1. 01:32:15 But, yeah. Sony is still manufacturing them. 01:32:19 alise, (after reading link): how boring. For a split second after you said "emotion engine" I thought it was a CPU dedicated to calculating facial expressions or something XD 01:32:32 no it is the cpu that lets the computer feel 01:32:34 And have no plans to stop. 01:32:39 hah 01:33:13 10 years and counting. 01:33:34 "Combined, the two channels of DRDRAM have a maximum theoretical bandwidth of 3.2 GB/s, about 33% more bandwidth than the internal data bus." 01:33:36 wtf? 01:33:40 what is the point of THAT 01:34:25 YA I KNOW RITE? 01:34:35 Sony is on record as saying they will continue making the PS2 until it stops selling. Dear me. 01:34:50 pikhq, why does it still sell? With the PS3 around I mean 01:35:20 Vorpal: It has pretty most of the good games made from 2000 to, say, 2008. 01:35:27 s/pretty/ 01:35:33 s/pretty// 01:35:59 Vorpal: And there are still games being made for it... 01:36:08 pikhq, invalid: you must correct the first sed expression using the second. And now you have to sed your second expression to fix the first instead :P 01:36:11 Vorpal: And it *outsold the PS3* until 2009. 01:36:23 pikhq, huh 01:36:41 Hell, it was outselling the Wii for quite a while. 01:41:12 The PS2: it prints money ™. 01:46:00 Vorpal: So, yeah. Get yous a PS2. 01:46:42 pikhq, nah 01:47:39 Vorpal: But you must play FFX. And FFXII. And Persona 3. Absolutely positively must. 01:47:43 It is imperative. 01:48:00 Now go make the best-selling console of all time sell a bit better! 01:48:42 pikhq, nah 01:48:46 pikhq, why does it still sell? With the PS3 around I mean 01:48:46 now: night 01:48:47 cost of PS3 01:48:50 PS3 doesn't support PS1 games 01:48:53 and it's ugly :) 01:48:57 alise: s/PS1/PS2/ 01:49:02 whoa, doesn't it? 01:49:05 oh yeah they dropped that recently didn't they 01:49:06 fuckface 01:49:09 *fuckfaces 01:49:13 alise: It still plays PS1 games. 01:49:16 wat. 01:49:19 That was software emulation from day 1. 01:49:24 it plays PS1 but not PS2? :D 01:49:39 They actually sell PS1 games on PSN. 01:49:51 The *PSP* can play PS1 games as well. 01:50:20 My PS3 still has the PS2 hardware in it. 01:50:40 (made a point of getting a used one) 01:53:59 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:56:00 -!- pintassilgo has joined. 01:58:22 just one thing 01:58:31 pikhq, wrt pre-rendered cutscene: 01:58:37 thanks for the warning to avoid that game 01:58:46 I hate pre-rendered cut scenes 01:59:04 the difference in quality is often jarring 01:59:24 and really breaks suspension of disbelief 01:59:58 Vorpal: Then you hate any game newer than '95. 02:00:00 if there is one thing that I can't stand in games it is pre-rendered high quality cut scenes, when the actual game has lower image quality 02:00:41 pikhq, hm what about n64, when was that? 02:01:03 Oh, right, the N64 didn't have the cartridge space for pre-rendered cut scenes. 02:01:05 zelda oot lacks pre-rendered cut scenes 02:01:09 for example 02:01:29 -!- pintassilgo has left (?). 02:01:38 Almost all PS1, PS2, PS3, Gamecube, Wii, Xbox, and Xbox 360 games have pre-rendered cutscenes. 02:01:50 pikhq, what about PC games? 02:01:59 Yes. 02:02:03 Saints Row didn't have them, or at least, they were no higher quality than the game engine provided 02:02:04 pikhq, varies 02:02:09 but i'm pretty sure they were scripted 02:02:19 and i'm sure ghost recon's cutscenes were just scripted 02:02:42 True; PC games can also opt for scripting cutscenes and have absolutely steller graphics. Better GPUs in general, and a need to deal with varying resolutions. 02:02:58 Vorpal: What would you think of a game that had *animated* cutscenes? 02:03:13 pikhq, what do you mean? As in not a static image? 02:03:20 I would prefer non-static image yes 02:03:29 As in an actual drawn animation. 02:03:43 um 02:03:50 THE NEVERHOOD WAS ENTIRELY CLAYMATION 02:03:50 pikhq, depends on what the rest of the game looks like 02:03:52 DISCUSSION OVER 02:03:54 I'm p cool with that 02:03:58 pikhq, if 3D? then fuck it 02:04:01 World of Goo has great cutscenes 02:04:01 Vorpal: Anime. 02:04:04 ALL THE ANIMATIONS, ALL THE BACKGROUNDS, ALL THE CHARACTERS 02:04:07 ALL THE CUTSCENES 02:04:09 ALL THE FUCKING GAME MENUS 02:04:11 (YES, ALL OF THEM) 02:04:15 cannot be beaten 02:04:21 alise, agreed 02:04:24 Vorpal: You should play Persona 3. 02:04:25 it is consistent 02:04:30 It is the best JRPG. 02:04:39 pikhq, as I said, the cut scenes *must* look like the rest of the game 02:04:54 The Neverhood is the best JRPG, the best FPS, the best RTS, the best casual game, the best EVERYTHING 02:04:56 otherwise I will just abort the game at the first cut scene 02:05:10 Vorpal: Stop it, you are denying yourself excellent games. 02:05:25 Vorpal: "The game *must* be made with sprites no better than what the SNES had" 02:05:33 pikhq, I tried and I found that it is so extremely jarring it just puts me off it 02:05:36 Vorpal: "The game *must* have sequenced graphics" 02:05:38 pikhq, that is completely different 02:05:47 Vorpal: "The game *must* use an NES controller" 02:05:52 pikhq, I'm asking for consistency 02:05:57 not for limiting to SNES 02:06:10 if the game itself has excellent graphics then so can the cut scenes 02:06:16 it just has to be consistent 02:06:52 pikhq, your attacks were just absurd :P 02:07:06 It's hard not to be when you're being absurd. 02:07:14 "I HATE GOOD-LOOKING CUTSCENES" 02:07:21 Though I will grant sometimes it's jarring 02:07:25 (looking at *you*, FF7) 02:07:45 pikhq, no I don't. I hate cutscenes of _different quality_ than the parts of the game that isn't cut scenes 02:07:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:07:55 which is very different from hating good quality cut scenes 02:08:21 * Sgeo growls at YouTube 02:08:23 Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzHpCOPsVbo Cutscene (intro, Persona 3), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drs140-CIf8 Gameplay (no spoilers) 02:08:53 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 02:09:24 pikhq, horrible music 02:09:51 ... You know what? You are not allowed to have opinions about games, you are a luddite. 02:10:05 pikhq, what genre is it? 02:10:15 Here's a stick and string. 02:10:17 Enjoy. 02:10:22 Vorpal: The game? JRPG. 02:10:33 (with dating sim elements. It works. Somehow.) 02:10:41 pikhq, the actual in game music is better 02:10:51 pikhq, it was just the intro music that I found rather bad 02:11:27 Okay, then we have inconsistent opinions on Shouji Meguro. :P 02:12:07 pikhq, though the battle music, while technically good is not really my cup of tea (to use a British idiom) 02:12:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkh-ZehNibg And this? 02:13:16 pikhq, starts out good at least 02:13:47 hm vocals, opera style? 02:13:52 oh well 02:14:04 Yes. Because Shōji Meguro is stranger to no genre. 02:14:48 pikhq, technically good, but I personally dislike vocals in opera style 02:15:08 You appear to have restricted tastes. 02:15:19 What *do* you like? 02:15:39 Vorpal likes my singing 02:16:06 Sgeo: Okay, I'm sorry. He apparently has a burnt out musical-taste lobe. 02:16:11 pikhq, remove the vocals (well that wouldn't work, replace it with some instrument, maybe violins?) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkh-ZehNibg would be awesome (it is already very good) 02:16:27 pikhq, I don't think I said I liked Sgeo singing? 02:16:32 * Sgeo was joking 02:16:47 I found it very nasty 02:17:03 pikhq, example of a game where I liked all music: zelda oot 02:17:11 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:17:15 You... Have astoundingly narrow tastes. 02:17:19 pikhq, no 02:17:20 Vorpal, do you like the Aquaria music? 02:17:25 pikhq, it was just an example 02:17:33 Sgeo, I have no clue what that is, so no idea 02:17:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEpxPWJAh8 02:18:23 pikhq, hm... I like Gregor's music too :) 02:18:29 Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZpngl1LwI And this? (random remake on the soundtrack album, not in the game) 02:18:38 pikhq, queued 02:19:21 pikhq, hm futurama theme is also nice btw. 02:19:33 Still, you are disallowed from playing JRPGs. You hate the freaking theme of the best series bar none. :P 02:19:55 pikhq, hm, I like that final fantasy I played on SNES 02:20:02 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:20:04 FF6. 02:20:05 not the spoony bard one 02:20:24 pikhq, one with floating continent or such? 02:20:25 iirc 02:20:39 pikhq, whatever number that one had 02:21:04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEpxPWJAh8 <-- rather restful. Game music? Which genre? 02:21:19 otherwise I will just abort the game at the first cut scene ;; lol 02:21:20 Yes, game music. 02:21:26 pikhq, I like NWN1 music too btw. 02:21:37 and wesnoth has awesome music 02:21:44 Vorpal: I swear, I am going to fly over there and force you to play some games some day. 02:21:47 Not sure what genre, but I've heard Aquaria described as something like Metroid and.. Castlevania? I haven't played those 02:21:55 Because God. 02:22:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFIOuQjgMYY more spirited 02:22:18 pikhq, anyway, secret of mana had mostly good music too 02:23:00 Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZpngl1LwI And this? (random remake on the soundtrack album, not in the game) <-- starts out very nice, a bit jazzy 02:23:09 and I like jazz 02:23:34 well, quite far from jazz, at least traditional jazz... Still very good 02:24:02 this is the last one before I go to sleep 02:24:11 Sgeo, will queue that one for tomorrow 02:25:41 Vorpal: are you ever going to go to fucking bed like you said three times? 02:25:53 alise, two I think 02:26:15 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 02:26:22 alise, and I invoke the Swedish idiom "tredje gången gilt" (translation left as exercise to the reader. 02:26:25 thus: night → 02:26:52 Night Vorpal 02:28:28 nobody gives a shit about you enough to translate what you say 02:35:17 alise, don't turn into Vorpal please 02:35:25 (Yes, I know it's really Vorpal turning into you) 02:35:49 When was the last time I insulted someone in this channel? 02:36:39 5 years 02:39:30 I assume you're just making it up, unless you link to logfile 02:40:20 you haven't been here 5 years 02:41:43 I remember discussing when I first came in 02:41:55 I mean, seeing the logs recently 02:42:00 I was asking about PESOIX 02:42:11 Premonition of evil things to come 02:44:32 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP7nBFk1C20&NR=1 02:44:38 I love the Aquaria soundtrack 02:44:40 <3<3<3 02:51:33 http://www.project10tothe100.com/ideas.html 02:51:50 An idea I had a very long time ago would fall under "Create real-world issue reporting system" 02:54:52 -!- augur has joined. 03:09:18 -!- myndzi has joined. 03:31:41 * Sgeo has discovered a new virtual world 03:40:09 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:43:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:44:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:59:03 -!- wareya_ has joined. 04:02:16 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:20:28 alise, when you see this: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010529 04:21:00 lawl 04:22:14 Hey, Userfriendly. A webcomic that follows newspaper comic conventions! 04:22:24 (*especially* the "no art change ever" one) 04:24:08 pikhq: And the "not being funny" one 04:24:39 thank god the far side never followed those conventions 04:25:29 Nor did Calvin & Hobbes. 04:26:12 NOR DID GARFIELD 04:26:16 * alise gets shot 04:26:16 lol 04:26:18 good one 04:26:22 no, i snickered 04:26:24 garfield is so post-modern man 04:26:28 Dear God Garfield actually had art change, didn't it. 04:26:45 Garfield is awesome because you know that it's actually taking place inside an empty house while Garfield is starving to death and hallucinating because of it. 04:26:50 Source: The Halloween sequence. 04:26:59 Sure, Jim Davies SAYS it's not canon... but we know the truth. 04:27:01 WE KNOW THE TRUTH 04:27:04 Yes, that sequence is awesome. 04:27:30 well, Garfield may have changed art once, but it fits perfectly the "not being funny" convention 04:28:45 Oh wait, alise is awake for some unfathomable reason 04:28:57 Shut the hell up about when I'm awake. 04:29:01 :| 04:29:33 what time is it alise? 04:30:05 quintopia: It had art evolution, actually. 04:30:19 4:29am 04:30:22 *4:29 am 04:30:26 Illiad never made episode 2 04:31:05 quintopia: http://www.garfield.com/comics/vault.html?yr=1989&addr=891023 Also, you must read this. 04:31:17 (storyline) 04:32:32 the stupid flash won't work for me :/ 04:32:34 oh well 04:34:22 http://www.userfriendly.org/animation/episode1.html 04:34:27 I actually liked this when I was a kid 04:35:44 The problem with Userfriendly is simple: it is bland as hell. 04:36:07 Unfortunately, this is the normal expectation of comics. 04:40:48 PHD tends to be pretty good on that front though. 04:40:53 Quite a lot of them are lolworthy 04:44:13 SMBC's quite good. 04:44:42 Cyanide & Happiness is good sometimes, though it does dead baby humor so much that it actually *becomes* mundane somehow. :P 04:45:48 Dinosaur Comics is just awesomeness in comic form. 04:46:05 And Dr. McNinja is awesomeness². 04:49:31 Dinosaur Comics > everything 04:49:44 pikhq: pictures for sad children 04:49:50 is the only one that can even compete with dinosaur comics 04:51:38 alise: Dr. McNinja is more about being the epitomy of epicness to the exclusion of all else. I don't think you can really compare it with comedic comics, because, uh. It's about having crowning moments of awesome. 04:51:45 Which it is very good at. 04:54:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3G5IXn0K7A why does this exist? I don't dislike it or anything, but who would bother? 04:54:40 [Warning: ancient Internet meme] 04:54:51 oh yeah they remade it like 50 times 04:54:55 to cash in on the popularity 04:55:18 How did they "cash in" though? 04:55:20 I refuse to click because I am listening to good music ATM. 04:55:25 So, what meme? 04:55:33 Hampster dance 04:55:39 *Hamster 04:55:45 Okay, kill it with fire the meme. Got it. 04:55:55 it is catchy though 04:55:59 Sgeo: released as a single 04:56:04 Ah o.O 04:56:29 I first heard it (at least a section of it) in a weird way 04:56:50 http://www.4chan.org/flash/?file=comeback4chan.swf&title=Come+Back+4chan 04:56:53 (SFW, I _think_) 04:56:57 Wow. 04:57:06 Black and White makes the low HP battle music *not horrible*. 04:57:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp0TcjM7wUM 04:58:08 * Sgeo read about Pokemon as a kid. And that's it 04:58:19 Had a book that listed all of them, think I had a story 04:58:20 Just ... read about it? 04:58:44 I might have played Pokemon Snap at a friend's house once, and .. the thing with the arena at camp 05:00:42 You. Emulator. Pokémon. Now. 05:01:05 (or, if you prefer: hǫke'to monnsutâsù) 05:01:41 I remember reading a book that had a section for parents. It said something like "You endured a talking purple dinosaur, you can endure this" 05:02:03 Nao. 05:02:28 Why are you wasting time when you could be playing the game? 05:02:50 I remember friends at my house when I was showing off Macromedia Shockwave thingy that I just learned about and I asked them for something for me to do. They had me have "Mew" scroll across the screen, iirc 05:03:09 I still do not know why it was on my computer 05:03:19 I said nao 05:03:27 If I could find the tutorial animations again, that would be amazing 05:03:50 I also had a book. I think the book came after me finding that, not sure 05:03:54 alise: My god they made the low HP battle music sound good. 05:03:58 Also, after I eat, I need to go to sleep 05:04:22 pikhq: Also: "No Gen I-IV Pokemon pre-national dex. Which means no more Zubats, Tentacools and Geodudes." 05:04:27 Also: 05:04:29 [[Fake Longevity: At long last AVERTED, battles are extremely sped up compared to the previous games, and without animations, it's essentially as fast as you can push the buttons. 05:04:29 And the task of catching all of the Pokemon is mitigated A LOT by the Dream World having essentially every Pokemon available to find. Some require codes of course, but still!]] 05:04:33 They took Pokemon and removed all the shitty parts! 05:04:36 NO FUCKING BATS 05:04:39 Now let's see how they made the game last longer than three seconds! 05:04:39 NO FUCKING BATS 05:04:49 pikhq: They'll add more bats, just differently-named and different looking ones :P 05:05:01 pikhq: You should play it. 05:05:09 I assume the Japanese will pose no trouble for you. 05:05:19 How much space would an emulator and the game take up? 05:05:21 alise: I totally will. 05:05:26 Sgeo: Megabytes? 05:05:30 I'm kind of on a low-space budget right now, for obvious reasons 05:05:34 I think I have 50 left 05:05:52 pikhq: aren't DS cartridges like 05:05:53 more 05:06:17 Cards currently range from 64 megabits to 4 gigabits (8–512 MiB) in size (although the maximum capacity is unknown). 05:06:36 Sgeo: 8 to 512 megabytes (as you know them) 05:06:39 alise: For a Gameboy cart? 05:06:40 also, delete some fucking shit 05:06:41 pikhq: DS... 05:06:49 I need Factor. 05:06:50 pikhq: The last generation (remake) was DS, too :P 05:06:52 I need Second Life. 05:07:00 pikhq: Protip: Gameboys aren't made any more 05:07:12 alise: "Emulator" 05:07:23 wait, the last one wasn't a remake either. XD 05:07:25 alise: Also: Pokemon Red & Blue is for the Gameboy biznitch. :P 05:07:30 pikhq: What do you mean "Emulator"? 05:07:34 Wow, Factor is huge 05:07:41 114.9MB 05:07:45 Pokemon Black and White, like Diamond, Pearl and Platinum, are *DS* games. 05:07:58 Yes, but Red & Blue is *Gameboy*. 05:08:06 I may have a slightly warped understanding of "huge" 05:08:14 pikhq: I was talking about playing Black & White, which have removed the suck. 05:08:24 They aren't out in English yet, you see. 05:08:29 What was Gold? 05:08:37 Assuming I'm not hallucinating that? 05:08:49 Gold & Silver were the first sequel. 05:08:52 And I mean, besides me 05:09:06 Huh? Two games to a generation? Red and blue aren't separate? 05:09:27 ... 05:09:29 yes, two games to a generation 05:09:30 like always 05:09:46 pikhq: You can be the first person to start with a Pokemon *other* than Tsutarja! 05:10:08 Well, there was often a 0.5 gen game. 05:10:12 How much of your Pokemon love is due to nostalgia? 05:10:13 (Yellow, Crystal, etc.) 05:10:24 Sgeo: It's a reasonable JRPG, actually. 05:10:26 Sgeo: none 05:10:31 i didn't play a pokemon game before Sapphire 05:10:35 Bit light on the plot, but not bad mechanically. 05:10:40 or was it someone else's copy of ruby, eh 05:10:41 whatever 05:10:44 they are excellent 05:10:48 although irritating 05:10:57 black & white speeding up battles will make it nicer 05:11:19 Though for me nostalgia definitely kicks in. It was my first JRPG. :P 05:11:28 -!- augur has joined. 05:11:38 pikhq: third games are pretty much inevitable now 05:11:46 Red, Green, Blue, and Yellow • Gold, Silver, and Crystal • Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald • Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum • Black and White 05:11:52 one of these things is not yet like the others 05:11:59 Ah, right. 05:12:18 Grey? 05:12:22 or transparent 05:12:23 :P 05:12:27 FireRed and LeafGreen • HeartGold and SoulSilver ;; neither of these count :P 05:12:38 Ah, remakes. 05:12:49 What's the difference between Red and Blue? 05:12:55 For example 05:13:05 Encounter tables. 05:13:18 dunno but for sapphire/ruby it's 05:13:30 the name of the bad guys, plot elements, the colour of the box art, and one pokemon unique to each 05:13:35 you can only get both by trading 05:13:57 *Unless* you're in Japan, in which case Blue was the bug-fix rerelease with a different map setup and art, which all the foreign releases were based on. 05:14:11 alise: For the first gen, there were a *lot* of Pokemon unique to each. 05:14:17 And no other differences. 05:14:25 It was just the encounter tables. 05:14:41 Goodnight. 05:14:42 Bye. 05:14:44 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:16:01 Oh, yeah, and the Japanese versions of the games also had Mew attainable without bugs. 05:16:13 (motherfucking bad export for you) 05:18:30 I have Windows NT MIPS running :) 05:18:45 ⁵ 05:18:45 I have heard about the new Pokemon Black/White, and that one change is that the pokemon numbers now start at zero. 05:18:59 zzo38: And there's 150 Pokemon. 05:19:11 For the first time in, oh, 14 years. 05:19:34 (They don't start at one anymore, although number 1 is still the grass starter, not number 0) 05:20:19 What I want to see in a pokemon game is another mode which adds limitations and removes some features and changes some, to make a bit different kind of game. 05:21:18 (Another thing I have heard about the new game is that there is now a Flying/Null type) 05:22:35 It still amazes me how Mew was put into Pokemon. 05:23:16 A programmer snuck it in and didn't tell anyone until after the game came out. 05:24:13 pikhq: That is how? I didn't know that. 05:25:25 yo 05:28:28 YES 05:28:29 YESSSSSSSSSSS 05:28:32 OMGYESYESYES 05:28:36 Visual C++ 2.0 for MIPS 05:28:59 WARNIGN: I AM TIRED 05:29:08 Along with all consequences of Sgeoan tiredness 05:29:09 Sgena 05:29:11 Sgean 05:33:38 zzo38: Couple weeks before they shipped the code out to be masked onto ROMs. 05:35:37 pikhq: OK. Thanks for telling me that 05:36:09 You mean Mew wasn't an official promo thingy? 05:36:30 I have created ... A BINARY! 05:37:20 Sgeo: Nope, it was a complete and utter surprise to Nintendo. 05:37:39 According to Wikipedia, it helped make Pokemon a success 05:37:40 They took the code for actually getting it *without* a promotion out of the out-of-Japan release, though. 05:37:57 (on the Japanese version, catching all Pokemon gave you a Mew) 05:41:18 Wait 05:41:24 Mewtwo's existence was deliberate? 05:41:40 And so there was a hypothetical "Mew", just not expected to be programmed in? 05:41:45 Yes. 05:42:10 Mewtwo was in a bonus dungeon. 05:42:40 (beat the game, go to Cerulean Cave, get you a Mewtwo. Hope you held on to that Masterball!) 05:42:49 Sorry, I'm not interested in Ubuntu 05:42:52 >.> 05:43:25 Yeah, but your mom is. All night long. 05:43:35 ... 05:44:24 You know what, I don't care. I don't really take those jokes personally 05:45:36 People take those jokes personally? 05:45:41 The concept is absurd. 05:45:59 I didn't know it was possible to take them personally. 05:46:04 I didn't mean it like that 05:46:09 As in, me getting offended 05:46:31 ... I didn't know it was even meant to be all that offensive. 05:47:03 The very premise is too absurd. 05:47:10 Much like your mother. 05:47:42 My mother died in 2004 05:48:10 And? 05:48:58 I think basing people's unwillingness to make "Your mother" jokes on alise's reaction may have been a mistake 05:48:58 I don't mean to be rude or anything, but... It's a freaking "your mom" joke. It's not a slight against your mother, it's hardly even a reference to her, it's just a mildly cliché form of joke. 05:49:17 pikhq, but I'm used to alise avoiding all mention of such jokes, is all 05:50:03 alise, when you read this: I don't care anymore, I won't get offended 05:51:24 "Mildly cliché"? 05:51:28 It is 100% cliché. 05:51:32 It is entirely a cliché. 05:51:46 It's such a cliché it has transcended cliché. It is a metacliché. 05:51:50 clíche 05:52:36 Typing those accents is mildly annoying for me due to the missing key 05:53:15 ♥ compose key 05:53:19 Gregor: I have attained a habit of understating things from Japanese. 05:53:25 Yes, but accents require the compose key.. 05:53:29 ♥ 05:53:29 (it's polite) 05:53:30 Oooh 05:54:11 Is there a list of compose key shenanigans somewhere? 05:54:19 Compose-<-3 is awesome! 05:54:19 yes 05:54:21 but 05:54:30 they are all so obvious you shouldn't need it 05:54:45 compose-m-u is 05:54:47 quintopia, if I don't realise that a heart can be done with compose key, I wouldn't even think to try it 05:54:59 µtorrent 05:55:10 is 1-2 05:55:13 compose-p-i is not pi 05:55:13 is 3-4 05:55:25 yeah that bothered me too 05:55:33 there is no composed pi 05:55:49 Encyclopædia Dramætica 05:56:22 is L-- 05:56:29 I just want the list 05:56:39 use your google fu 05:56:42 it ain't that hard to find 05:56:59 C♯ 05:57:32 erjan 05:57:38 Tired insanity ©Sgeo 05:58:01 1÷0 05:58:27 commas put tails on things to get french letter 05:58:30 05:58:38 100¢ 05:58:45 Who uses ¢ these days? 05:59:21 Use it to repla¢e c. 05:59:27 ¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹⁰ 05:59:47 âĉê 05:59:50 FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuu 06:00:25 tàiakuritiŧkusu. 06:00:39 The table that Wikipedia has doens't mention ♥ 06:01:52 ± 06:02:18 „ 06:02:21 HOT 06:02:52 ♮ 06:02:59 I'm a ♮ at this 06:03:03 There are uses of TeX trigraphs in CWEB programs, for example, if you want a literal "|" in the TeX output, if you want a literal "*/" in the TeX output, or if you want a space at the beginning of a line. 06:03:59 I don't see ♥ on this list 06:04:10 it's a new one 06:04:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:04:29 -!- augur has joined. 06:04:34 sgeo: also, it's unicode 06:04:39 so you shouldn't use it 06:04:45 Or, if you want to stop CWEB from complaining about unmatched braces in comments 06:04:55 just like you should use the superscripted 4-0 you printed above 06:05:08 *shouldn't 06:05:35 because this is IRC dammit, and we have laws! 06:05:41 i mean, uh, social conventions! 06:06:28 IRC works best with plain ASCII, although UTF-8 and things like that can be used, too, if all relevant clients are configured correctly. 06:07:09 (I have PuTTY configured to use UTF-8, so anything that isn't valid UTF-8 will print as a block) 06:07:43 And it is possible to change what characters can be entered by the compose key. 06:08:42 quintopia: I hereby ban non-Unicode. 06:09:25 I demand þat þe Unicode be uſèd! 06:09:42 Are þere any who would conteſt þis? 06:11:15 the convention is so that people on mobile clients and such that don't support unicode aren't constantly bitching about funky gibberish in their screen 06:11:31 Yes, for one thing my IRC client does not have capability to send unicode (although it can receive unicode OK). 06:11:55 in another channel, there is a bot that lets you set a catchphrase that displays when you enter, and i set mine to a plain old message, but every letter was changed to its unicode equivalent 06:12:27 and people on mobile clients bitched and moaned because it translated to gibberish that was twice as long and filled up their screens so they couldn't read what was actually happening in the channel 06:12:55 i got very unpopular for a while there 06:13:05 Plain old message? What unicode equivalent? 06:13:40 It said something like "Whogivesafuckaboutan encoding?" 06:13:55 But all of those characters were the unicode versions 06:14:07 Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt. 06:14:10 quintopia: Þat's bullſhit. If you can't do Unicode in þis day and age, you do not deſerve Internet access. 06:14:19 I don't know how to generate them here, but on my old OS, shift+space switched to an all-unicode input mode 06:14:44 I suppoſe next you'll be saying we should mandate þat we uſe only HTML 1? 06:14:48 pikhq: some mobile devices just don't HAVE unicode-supporting clients yet 06:14:58 primarily because the devices themselves don't natively support unicode 06:15:04 And þoſe devices are þus BROKEN 06:15:18 ASCII codes are the same in UTF-8, unless overlong encodings are used. 06:15:25 no, because everyone doesn't have to see when people bitch about webpages not displaying 06:15:34 pikhq: You shouldn't use any HTML on IRC 06:15:37 I repeat: not supporting UTF-8 is brain damage of the worst kind. 06:15:39 It doesn't matter HTML 1 or not 06:15:42 zzo38: No, I mean *on the web*. 06:16:01 yes, the devices are broken pikhq, but people have them nonetheless 06:16:04 zzo38: HTML 1 *on the web*. Because some moron might be using an ooold browser. 06:16:12 quintopia: I care not. 06:16:12 and those are the people we have to deal with when they whine about it 06:16:16 pikhq: O, sorry. If you want efficiently and full compatible, use plain text, don't use HTML at all if HTML is not necessary. 06:16:31 sticking to ISO 8859-1 isn't all that hard to do 06:16:32 zzo38: Oh, right, it's you. With the Gopher server. :P 06:16:34 If it is necessary, use HTML, use whatever tags are important, and any tags the browser does not understand will be ignored. 06:16:36 So, it is OK. 06:16:49 quintopia: この言語はISO 8859-1にないぜ! 06:17:14 i don't speak that language 06:17:26 quintopia: Also, *yes it is*. You realise that ISO 8859-1 is actually hardly ever used? 06:17:28 take that to your silly asian irc server 06:17:40 quintopia: Instead what is used is a Microsoft code page that is *similar*. 06:17:52 But is always advertised as ISO 8859-1. 06:18:09 I repeat: non-Unicode is brain damage of the worst kinda and it should be murdered. 06:18:20 Not merely stopped, MURDERED IN A COLD ALLEY. 06:18:37 how should i know what is actually being used? i just tell IRC to only transmit 8859-1. if it fucks that up, i really don't care, because it works for all the characters i use on a regular basis 06:19:22 i already told you i agreed with you on that front 06:19:45 My program utfeight.tex supports overlong encodings and calls them valid. You might use them to enter unicode characters that are equivalent of ASCII codes but you don't want them to be used as those TeX commands 06:19:48 i'm just explaining why that convention came into existence 06:20:04 The convention on Freenode *is* to use UTF-8, BTW. 06:20:34 The convention on my IRC server is to use plain ASCII, although you can use UTF-8 if you want. 06:20:56 Also: I care not for conventions that exist only to support retarded software that's decades out of date. 06:21:07 Fine. For you. 06:21:24 And I *hate* having to deal with the encoding game for Japanese. 06:21:42 (attitudes like YOURS are responsible for there being 4 encodings in common use for Japanese and OH GOD MAKE IT STOP) 06:22:10 attitudes like mine? 06:22:17 you don't even know what my attitude is 06:22:19 "It works just fine so let's not change it" 06:22:48 This is why typical Japanese IRC uses a character encoding designed for being compatible with a DOS encoding that supported ASCII + half-width katakana. 06:22:52 (vomit) 06:22:55 yeah, i never said "it works just fine" 06:23:00 it doesn't work just fine 06:23:04 it works fine FOR ME 06:23:11 so I won't change it 06:23:19 And that is the problem. 06:23:33 it's not a problem 06:23:41 i don't ever write in japanese 06:23:42 For English channels that have Japanese text typed in it, though, UTF-8 is more commonly used for that purpose. 06:23:45 i couldn't have caused that problem 06:24:00 No, but the same attitude causes that problem in Japanese. 06:24:19 people being wrong is not an attitude 06:24:22 BTW, English doesn't fit in ASCII or ISO 8859-1. Just FYI. 06:24:45 Why doesn't English fit in ASCII or ISO 8859-1? 06:25:04 zzo38: “Quotation marks”, anyone‽ 06:25:12 meh 06:25:17 " is good enough for me 06:25:24 unambiguous by placement 06:25:25 That is, if you don't want straight quotation marks 06:25:41 curly quotes are silly anyway 06:25:58 Loan words; comprendé? 06:25:59 Curly quotes should be used only in books, not on computer text documents 06:26:16 and interrobangs should be used nowhere 06:26:32 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 06:26:56 pikhq: i don't know any common use loan words that don't fit in ISO i8859-1 06:26:58 Diaresis, perhaps? (as in “coöperate” or “naïve”) 06:27:09 Let'ſ ſee if I´ll have to kill anyone oveſ Unicode ♥ 06:27:15 quintopia: "Arigatō". 06:27:18 You can use backspace to compose characters in plain ASCII, although a lot of program do not accept that 06:27:34 Workſ perſectly ſor me 06:27:38 pikhq: we spell it arigato here. 06:27:47 Sgeo: You fail at long s. 06:27:56 * Sgeo prepareſ to die by pikhq'ſ handſ 06:27:57 quintopia: Yes, and that's a completely horrifically wrong spelling. 06:28:10 I can see files that use backspace with the same character twice to make bold 06:28:11 pikhq: tends to be the case with loan words 06:28:18 Yes, I know that ſ isn't f 06:28:21 Sgeo: I don't think you are supposed to ever use long s at the end of a word 06:28:26 since we don't really borrow them, just steal them and modify them to our liking 06:28:38 And I knew that too, although I think someone said that it used to be used there 06:28:42 And in modern typing, long s is not used at all 06:29:01 When did schools stop teaching ſ? 06:29:17 Sgeo: I don't know, but it isn't commonly used these days anyways 06:29:24 When did public education come to be, for that matter? 06:29:37 * Sgeo feels clueleſs 06:29:44 sgeo: in the U.S., long before the declaration of independence 06:29:51 quintopia: Also, dashes — as opposed to the common hyphen — are not in ASCII or ISO 8859-1. 06:30:05 1647 in Massachusetts 06:30:08 quintopia, that's the answer to which question? 06:30:15 quintopia: EEEEHHHH, wrong. Long s came out of use during the 1800s. 06:30:18 public education 06:30:30 Oh, wait. Public education. Right. 06:30:30 pikhq: neato 06:30:52 It's written "In Congreſs Aſsembled" on the Constitution. 06:30:53 How many people were angered by everyone's use of s? 06:30:54 :) 06:31:32 What is with the weird a? 06:31:37 No one writes a like a 06:31:42 Sgeo: If you want to be über-cool, use ß for “ſ”. 06:31:48 I do, when i want it to be pretty 06:31:49 Erm. 06:31:54 “ſs”. 06:31:57 thank you 06:32:00 i was about to say... 06:32:07 (ß is the ligature for ſs) 06:32:24 Only in German, isn't it? 06:32:24 aßßaßßination 06:32:26 oops 06:32:34 aßaßination 06:32:36 I see it! 06:32:37 zzo38: No, though it fell out of use in English in the 1600s. 06:32:45 pikhq: O, OK 06:32:50 ſs does look like ß 06:32:57 And was a bit uncommon starting in the 1500s. 06:32:57 pikhq: and when did fall out of use in english? 06:33:09 quintopia: Printing press. 06:33:13 Sgeo: It does if you put it close together 06:33:26 That is probably where it comes from 06:33:44 quintopia: Printers didn't have glyphs for þ, so they substituted first "y" and then "th". 06:33:45 and per se and is my fave ligature 06:33:51 in some faces, they are very pretty 06:33:53 If I were to take a document containing "the" to back then, would it be understandable? 06:34:11 (this, BTW, is where we get the bizarre "ye old" thing. Because "y" was substituting for þ.) 06:34:28 zzo38: That *is* where it comes from. 06:34:34 zzo38: It is the ligature of ſs. 06:35:23 aß 06:35:38 you got that right 06:37:05 i should go to bed if i'm gonna get up in 5.5 hours 06:37:13 Þe quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. 06:37:14 Dammit 06:37:24 Twice 06:37:36 Þe quick brown fox jumps over Þe lazy dog 06:37:47 *þe 06:37:58 “Þe quick brown fox jumps over þe lazy dog”, þou mean'ſt. 06:38:49 mean'st? 06:39:02 I feel I almost have netcat for NT MIPS 06:39:10 Sgeo: you might find this interesting, in a scan it for info kind of way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_School_Laws 06:39:22 I need to go to sleep 06:40:09 peeoples! 06:40:19 Sgeo: Yes. 06:52:31 Wikipedia claims that þ is Compose-T 06:52:39 Which makes no sense 06:53:12 * Sgeo wtfs at Ctrl-Shift-ude 06:53:19 What sense does that make? 06:53:57 Oh, for unicode 06:54:03 Huh, that makes a weird sort of sense 06:54:33 ÿ 06:54:44 How do you type it when the unicode has digits? 06:55:41 Oh, got it 06:55:46 啕 06:55:50 This is fun! 06:56:07 I don't like the \outer command in TeX. 06:56:34 ☃ 06:56:42 Ctrl-Shift-U2603 06:56:44 hey, look, it's 口+勹+缶! 06:57:56 ⚠Fire in the disco⚠ 06:57:57 ⚠Fire in the disco⚠ 06:58:15 ⚠Fire at the Taco Bell⚠ 06:59:02 ⚠Don't you want to know how we keep starting fires‽ 06:59:22 It's my desire! It's my desire! 07:00:32 -!- augur has changed nick to AugurMD. 07:00:46 Feh, got netcat to compile on NT MIPS, but it doesn't work :P 07:01:01 -!- AugurMD has changed nick to augur. 07:05:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:06:55 Placebo effect can't stain teeth, can it? 07:07:18 Either my mouthwash is staining my teeth after two uses, or my teeth are really screwed up 07:07:25 Or I just haven't noticed before 07:08:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:08:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 07:08:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:09:27 Your teeth may be really screwed up. 07:13:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4gyJsY0mc potentially nsfw, but no skin. Also certainly nsfh 07:24:46 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:40:01 -!- cheater99 has joined. 07:40:33 So who wants SSH into Windows? X-P 07:40:38 Windows MIPS that iss 07:50:32 -!- iGO has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:54:28 \def\defnoexpand#1{\def#1{\noexpand#1\noexpand}} 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:10:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:34:57 Here is an example demonstrating some of the new features of Enhanced CWEB version 0.3: http://sprunge.us/RBID 08:37:03 Any questions?? 09:11:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 09:16:25 -!- tombom has joined. 09:18:35 -!- FIQ has quit (Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -). 09:20:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:29:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:54:36 hm bogosort isn't stable right? 09:54:53 a stable bogosort, I wonder how it could be accomplished 10:00:38 Bogosort? 10:00:48 Like bogomips? 10:02:58 I think bogosort is when you mix it at random and then check to see if it is sorted or not. 10:04:20 I have read about a quantom bogosort, in which after checking to see if it is sorted or not, and if it is not sorted then you have to destroy the entire universe. If it is correct then you do not destroy the universe. 10:05:04 (I suppose one way of destroying the universe might be to cause a paradox?) 10:05:42 Ah, one of DMM's searches? 10:06:26 Er, algorithms. 10:06:50 Maybe, I don't know 10:22:41 I think that dell laptop has this CPU. (though I'm not 100% certain): http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=27593 10:25:01 Phantom_Hoover, I don't think DMM made it 10:25:42 Phantom_Hoover, it is just one of those well known "joke" algorithms. IIRC it dates back to the 1980s or earlier 10:25:49 Oh. It seemed like one of his... 10:27:52 Ah, he did bogobogosort. 10:28:18 how does that one work? 10:32:23 It's recursive bogosort. 10:34:07 in what way is it recursive? 10:35:07 *meh* googles 10:46:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 10:52:00 O, go drink hydroxic acid. 10:59:38 Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car. 11:10:41 Why do you say this for no apparent reason? 11:10:57 -!- nooga has joined. 11:24:44 Is this somewhat like how John Stump writes music? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/circuit_diagram.png (Except, that it isn't music, in this case.) 11:30:36 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 11:38:21 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:40:26 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 11:49:23 -!- Harpyon_ has joined. 11:50:50 -!- Harpyon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:51:11 -!- Harpyon_ has joined. 11:58:11 zangband zangband yeah' 12:03:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:11:31 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:38:50 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:45:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:18:10 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:22:07 -!- Zuu has joined. 13:22:08 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 13:22:08 -!- Zuu has joined. 13:25:45 zangband 13:29:22 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:52:07 -!- Flonk has joined. 13:53:06 haha, wine doesn't work on NTFS, becuase "NTFS does not provide all the file system features needed by some applications" 13:55:30 olsner, wait a second... "on ntfs"? Are you running wine on windows? 13:57:41 of course, they're probably talking about linux' ntfs support not providing all the features 14:02:38 olsner, ah that makes a lot more sense 14:06:06 -!- iGO has joined. 14:09:00 -!- nooga has joined. 14:31:28 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:51:43 -!- iGO has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:18:47 -!- alise has joined. 15:19:06 hi 15:20:06 21:18:30 I have Windows NT MIPS running :) 15:20:09 but only 3, ha ha 15:20:14 pikhq: I blame you severely. 15:23:19 21:49:17 pikhq, but I'm used to alise avoiding all mention of such jokes, is all 15:23:26 Alive moms get no such preferential treatment :P 15:24:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:24:51 22:04:34 sgeo: also, it's unicode 15:24:51 22:04:39 so you shouldn't use it 15:24:57 this channel has no such law 15:25:55 22:11:15 the convention is so that people on mobile clients and such that don't support unicode aren't constantly bitching about funky gibberish in their screen 15:25:58 don't use such clients 15:26:01 hi ais523 15:26:28 hi 15:26:38 22:14:07 Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt. 15:26:40 How do you have it?! 15:26:58 ais523: (context: me and Gregor have been trying to get Windows NT working on a non-x86 architecture) 15:27:16 NT 4, specifically, but Gregor's cheated and done 3.5 because that's easy 15:27:21 alise: is it an arch it was actually ported to? 15:27:28 ais523: err, yes 15:27:29 or are you trying to port Windows without (or with?) access to its source? 15:27:35 x86, Alpha, MIPS, PPC 15:27:50 are the archs NT 4 runs on 15:28:02 with MIPS, we've got all the bios and stuff setup so it does the part of the install before the first reboot 15:28:12 then gets into graphical mode, says it's initialising, then it freezes including the mouse forever 15:28:32 A Computer Database Maintainance is currently going on our Webmail Message Center. Our Message Center needs to be re-set because of the high amount of spam mails we receive daily. A Quarantine Maintainance will help us prevent this everyday dilemma. 15:28:32 with PPC, the bioses are being stoopid and we can't get it to boot 15:28:40 with Alpha, we have no idea what the hell can simulate a full Alpha machine properly 15:28:47 it fails completely because I'm not actually accessing the account via webmail 15:28:55 also, it was sent three times 15:28:56 the Alpha one translates x86 Windows executables to Alpha JIT, though, which is awesome 15:29:00 and then *stores the translation* so there's no further overhead 15:29:08 I noticed it mostly because the title was "HTML *******" 15:29:22 ais523: heh 15:29:40 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:29:48 oh, I actually got two more copies it seems, with the title "SPAM: Important: Email Account Verification Update? ! ! !" 15:29:54 the SPAM: at the start is added by the university spamfilter 15:29:59 which often hits false positives, but not this time 15:30:05 hmm, were you there when I created a monster hybrid of Windows 2000 and NT 4? 15:30:18 I don't think so 15:30:36 in other news, another spammer was talking about recalls for hip replacements 15:30:46 a recall for one of those would probably make the news... 15:31:00 ais523: To make IE completely removable, I - like someone had done for XP - swapped in the NT 4 explorer.exe for 2k's. 15:31:19 Thus producing an ever-so-slightly broken but surprisingly-well-working 95-era interface on Win2k. 15:31:30 heh 15:31:34 (One of the bugs is that the default action on folders was Find, not Open. :)) 15:31:46 *was/is; pick one to keep it consistent 15:33:07 maybe some registry hacking could get that default action fixed? 15:33:28 -!- tombom has joined. 15:33:29 -!- tombom has quit (Changing host). 15:33:29 -!- tombom has joined. 15:33:57 olsner: almost certainly 15:34:10 but it also crashes an awful lot for no particular reason -- for instance every time you click a link in IE, and many other things besides 15:34:15 of course you'd remove IE, but... 15:41:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:41:51 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:49:56 * alise is doing SCIENCE 15:50:42 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:54:31 SCIENCE complete, results disappointing 15:57:18 Good. 15:58:10 specifically, I am completing online surveys for an entirely imaginary person who wishes to be contacted about nothing, and referring versions of myself with different email addresses, in order to get the Spotify Premium code at the end, just to see if it actually ever happens 15:58:23 right now i'm trying to figure out where i put the variation on my address to refer myself 16:00:56 lol, i think that one tries to iframe a survey so it can tell when it's done 16:00:59 but it breaks out of the iframe 16:06:39 "Remember that each of your referrals must complete 1 credit worth of offers to be classed as a complete referral." 16:06:45 Why didn't I guess that? 16:07:12 -!- nooga has joined. 16:14:13 now i'm getting excellent quotes on comparethemarket.com for my 1970H BMW 1600, 1573CC Petrol, 2DR, Manual 16:17:51 i give up; it won't confirm my vehicle 16:22:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:24:05 (I suppose one way of destroying the universe might be to cause a paradox?) 16:24:21 i think that's the rather hypothetical part... :D 16:24:56 it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily. 16:27:04 what you can do is to make different ways of reaching the same outcome interfer with each other, destroying all of them. but it's not clear that you can always find some way to interfer away a particular outcome, afaik 16:29:04 `addquote it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily. 16:29:14 (if you _could_, you'd probably have a way of solving NP-complete problems with quantum computing. scott aronson's blog Shtetl Optimized as as its subtitle "Quantum computers are not known to be able 16:29:17 227| it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily. 16:29:18 to solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time." 16:29:34 oerjan: the same way quantum bogosort works? 16:29:36 ) 16:29:51 ais523: that was the discussion zzo38 was responding to... 16:30:01 also, I suspect that if it were possible to arbitrarily destroy the universe, unless it was incredibly difficult someone would have done so by now 16:30:12 i.e. it's not obvious you _can_ do quantum bogosort 16:30:28 in fact, the anthropic principle rather implies that we live in a universe that's hard to destroy arbitrarily 16:31:02 ais523: um in this case the idea is that you would notice if someone destroyed the universe, since you would by many-worlds interpretation be in one of the universes that hadn't been destroyed 16:31:10 *would _not_ notice 16:31:36 hmm, and there are always worlds in which the universe is not destroyed? 16:31:51 I suppose you have to draw a distinction between destroying the universe, and the multiverse 16:32:21 between a class X-4 and a class X-5 on the TVTropes scale of apocalypse severities 16:32:40 ais523: yes, that in fact _does_ follow from quantum mechanics since the unitary evolution always preserves the length (i.e. square root of total probability) of the state vector 16:33:25 meh, if you can destroy an entire multiverse, destroying maths and logic seems fairly easy by comparison 16:33:42 also, I suspect that if it were possible to arbitrarily destroy the universe, unless it was incredibly difficult someone would have done so by now 16:33:44 not in the quantum sense 16:34:12 (this links in to the rather kooky idea of quantum immortality) 16:34:23 alise: Secretly ... oh so secretly ... the page you linked to with instructions on how to install NT4 MIPS in QEmu also has sufficient information to find where the author has squirreled away a downloadable copy of VC++ for MIPS :) 16:34:32 ais523: well all this stuff only becomes mildly realistic because you _can_ in some sense interpret interference of quantum waves as destroying the universes in which the wave sums are zero 16:34:34 Gregor: haha 16:34:47 Gregor: in the ported software section? 16:34:55 alise: Nope. 16:35:10 alise: Well actually yeah, there too. 16:35:12 Gregor: i freakin' found the page, netcatted you an iso and got a good part of NT installed, just tell me :P 16:35:16 alise: But that's not where I found the information :P 16:35:19 Pff 16:35:20 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 16:35:23 One sec, need to refind the link :P 16:35:37 Gregor: i freakin' found the page, netcatted you an iso an 16:35:38 right 16:35:43 Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:21 PM 65012747 WindowsNT4.0-MIPS.iso.gz 16:35:46 woot, that one might actually work 16:35:52 *aaronson 16:35:53 Oh, you found it. 16:35:56 alise: No, tried that. 16:36:02 what doesn't work about it? 16:36:04 alise: Same issue. 16:36:25 http://vpsland.superglobalmegacorp.com/install/WindowsNT4.0-MIPS/GNUstuff/ 16:36:44 http://vpsland.superglobalmegacorp.com/install/WindowsNT4.0-MIPS/irc/ OMG IRC 16:37:55 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:38:02 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 16:38:23 Gregor: so is the iso exactly the same, more or less? 16:38:28 despite being presumably workstation? 16:38:39 Saturday, August 08, 2009 4:41 PM 234936 wimamp25.zip 16:38:40 :DDDDDDDDD 16:38:45 "wim"amp? 16:38:54 heh, "The TCS Stack Exchange. Exponentially better than emailing Scott Aaronson." 16:39:00 alise: No, it's MIPS-only, but it's behaviorally close enough. 16:39:06 something tells me the guy feels a bit inundated :D 16:39:14 Gregor: So they just deleted the non-MIPS directories, then? 16:39:32 alise: Either that or it actually was a MIPS-only CD in the first place. 16:40:30 alise: I suspect the latter because it actually has a label that looks like a MS kind of label, and nobody bothers to label when they just make ISO images. 16:41:05 -!- Kordalien has joined. 16:42:14 Gregor: Ooh, I wonder if qemu 0.10 will work with MIPS? Although apparently old versions of QEMU get the colours wrong, and it was only a recent effort, so probably not, but I have it compiled anyway, so... 16:42:19 Any progress with PPC? 16:42:53 It boots the bios, at least. (qemu 0.10/mips) 16:43:26 alise: None, got too excited about MIPS :P 16:43:42 It also reboots. 16:44:07 And loads the setup. 16:44:11 rc4030 ERROR: rc4030_writel: Cache maintenance not handled yet (val 0x1b) 16:44:21 Not sure the setup will start :P 16:44:26 Seems not. 16:44:39 Gregor: You do realise that whatever succeeds must be physically replicated? 16:45:10 alise: Except that it's substantially easier to physically install NT4 and say "screw QEmu" :P 16:45:20 `addquote Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car. 16:45:38 * oerjan has no idea what made zzo38 say that, but found it amusing 16:45:39 Gregor: You forgot the "build, by hand, a motherfucking MIPS workstation". 16:46:05 alise: Except you can probably more easily buy, by hand, a complete motherfucking MIPS workstation. 16:46:09 228| Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car. 16:47:05 Gregor: That's motherfucking cheating. Like buying a Dell computer when the goal is being fucking awesome. 16:47:12 BUILD the MIPS workstation. 16:48:17 mildly interesting programming system 16:54:03 this channel has no such law <-- frequent logreaders instead wish for a ban of iso-8859-1 16:54:45 actually, my browser interprets utf-8 as iso-8859-1 by default, as do i think many others 16:54:48 which is highly irritating 16:54:51 i guess that's what you mean 16:54:58 stupid server not sending the content-type header 16:55:00 especially this morning when the logs had a discussion in which different participants used iso-8859-1 and utf-8 16:55:10 alise: no! 16:55:21 i mean actual usage. 16:56:12 most of the time my browser detects that the logs are utf-8 automatically, but not always 16:56:37 and when someone actually has used iso-8859-1 it of course breaks completely 16:57:23 while irssi guesses encoding on at least line-by-line basis, IE seems to have no such fine-grained option 16:57:30 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has joined. 16:57:40 G-MIPSYEAH: is that from mips? 16:57:49 OH YEAAAAH 16:57:52 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has quit (Client Quit). 16:57:59 Until I do that 16:58:48 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has joined. 16:58:58 This IRC client sucks so much. 16:59:12 It's convinced I'm not actually in this channel. 16:59:21 screenshot or gtfo 17:00:02 * oerjan memes about stacktrace 17:01:09 alise: It didn't even give me that message from you. 17:01:14 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has quit (Client Quit). 17:01:38 SCREENSHOT OR FTGO 17:01:57 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow). 17:02:05 Don't effing care or GTFO :P 17:03:52 Gregor: hey i'm good at that! sometimes. 17:05:19 ARGH HOMEWORK DAMMIT 17:05:21 * Sgeo cries 17:05:29 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has joined. 17:05:51 Wooo 17:05:57 Better worse IRC client :P 17:06:01 At least it knows I'm in this channel. 17:07:04 NOT THAT YOU CARE :( 17:07:36 I care 17:07:40 Gregor: well if i cared i'd have to GTFO, you told me so 17:07:52 Sgeo: oh we'll have to ban you then 17:07:56 oerjan: ... touche sir :P 17:08:00 I assume that this is genuine MIPS, as JSMIPS would have no Internet connectivity 17:08:15 Get NT to work on JSMIPS =P 17:08:16 Sgeo: It's QeEmu MIPS, running Windows NT. 17:08:20 Yeahno 17:08:23 Although that would RULE. 17:09:51 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 17:10:54 Hooray, Firefox just loves crashing! 17:11:39 http://codu.org/tmp/ircyeah.png 17:11:53 Screenshot 17:11:56 It DID happen. 17:15:30 NT 4 on JSMIPS 17:15:35 running cygwin 17:15:37 running X11 17:15:41 clearly the best way to do graphics in JSMIPS 17:15:50 Sounds about right to me. 17:15:55 G-MIPSYEAH: was the other one graphical? 17:16:25 Sort of. 17:16:26 Not very.' 17:16:31 But it doesn't fucking work :P 17:18:42 /quit 17:18:42 Wait 17:18:44 ... 17:18:47 Greaaat. 17:18:50 How the hell do I quit? 17:18:58 Oh, the screenshot wasn't of JSMIPS 17:19:05 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:21:34 Sgeo: Duh :P 17:21:41 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 17:21:42 Gregor: I have a porpoiseal. 17:22:06 I can barely have 5 tabs open in Fx when OpenOffice.org Writer is open 17:22:45 alise: your mad biology experiments will be your downfall, i tell ya 17:23:01 Sgeo: AbiWord 17:23:28 I have no idea if I have enough disk space for that 17:23:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:24:01 * Sgeo tries 17:24:25 Do, or do not. There is no try. 17:24:45 If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space? 17:25:26 Probably. 17:25:42 You'd need to do some hairy things, though. 17:29:33 But they would appreciate it. 17:33:18 If girls with hair on the top of their heads count... 17:33:31 Not hairy enough. 17:40:25 If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space? <-- um that's silly 17:40:41 Sgeo, swap on flash is a bad idea generally 17:40:52 due to write cycles being rather limited 17:41:16 SSDs are generally rated for much higher write cycle count, so less of a worry there 17:56:17 http://i.imgur.com/ay98m.png Straight, gay, lesbian, hispanic, bisexual or unsure? 17:56:56 If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space? 17:56:56 Probably. 17:56:56 You'd need to do some hairy things, though. 17:56:56 If girls with hair on the top of their heads count... 17:56:58 stop doing that shit, it's not funny 17:58:33 alise, did you miss what Gregor said? 17:59:06 girls _without_ hair on the top of their heads probably count, in a paradoxical way 18:00:30 Sgeo: that's got very little to do with the fact that half of the things you say serve no other purpose other than a de facto nick change to HormonesDeliveredThroughAnIRCSocket :P 18:02:43 and you wouldn't want to deliver your hormones that way, since it would be cut off 18:14:58 alise, that's the first time I've seen Sgeo say anything that would corroborate that statement. 18:15:35 Phantom_Hoover: well ok it's more like >1/3 of his jokes. 18:16:01 I haven't noticed that either... 18:16:38 i'm not about to go log trawling 18:17:16 I don't understand people who have persistence of memory for other people. 18:17:34 i'm really good at it :P 18:17:46 i could easily tell who says what in this channel without names 18:17:58 Oh it's on. 18:18:00 It is SO on. 18:18:06 Hack an IRC client to hide names and DO IT. 18:18:38 Gregor: i already proposed a game that takes a random recent snippet of logs and asks you to fill in the names 18:18:44 recent as in 18:18:46 from the past few years 18:18:52 not from like 2005 when god knows who everyone was :P 18:19:10 alise, make it! 18:19:15 Don't just talk about it! 18:19:24 i told fizzie to make it 18:19:27 The problem is everybody else would suck at it :P 18:20:08 I still want to make botornot 18:21:41 to bot, or not to bot 18:22:45 Crud, I have such a terrible memory for people :( 18:23:00 I just got back in touch with a childhood friend who I haven't spoken to since 2004 18:23:02 or so 18:23:14 He remembers a lot about me 18:23:18 I remember almost nothing about him 18:23:27 oerjan: Concept behind botornot: Reverse Turing test. Two players are brought together, one is a questioner, the other is an answerer. Also brought in is a randomly-selected bot. Both answer questions, and the answerer tries to convince the questioner (judge) that he's the bot. The questioner then guesses which is the bot. If you're a human and you get guessed as bot, you win points. 18:24:12 I think I could pretend to be ELIZA-like 18:24:31 Maybe 18:24:41 But if you were paired with a better bot, they would still think IT was the bot, 'cuz ELIZA is too easy. 18:24:49 Sgeo: Why do you think you could pretend to be ELIZA-like? 18:25:04 It seems all three sides could easily cheat 18:25:16 zzo38: The bot can't cheat. 18:25:20 Gregor: there's a famous dialog somewhere where Douglas Hofstadter was asked to assess a "new chatterbot" 18:25:22 zzo38: The questioner certainly can't cheat. 18:25:32 when he was actually being connected to a group of students pretending to be a bot 18:25:38 zzo38: The only other issue is timing, and that can be smoothed out. 18:25:43 ais523: lawl; what about timing? 18:25:48 Gregor: I don't believe you. They can all cheat. 18:25:57 he was told the connection was to a mainframe at the other end of the campus 18:26:03 zzo38: What does it even mean for the judge to cheat? 18:26:07 and bandwidth was so limited those days that the high latency was plausible 18:26:56 alise, http://pastebin.com/VvdSYukk 18:27:00 Like that? 18:27:17 Phantom_Hoover: sure. perhaps even without the numbers 18:27:29 what rough time is that from? 18:27:35 June. 18:27:37 also, you forgot to censor lifthrasiir; is he a number? 18:27:42 No. 18:27:56 I used search-and-replace to get rid of the names. 18:28:08 Gregor: I suppose one way is doing things other than simply sending normal messages. Such as looking elsewhere. Or other protocol commands. 18:28:09 -!- olsner has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:28:31 zzo38: That's just silly. Why are we building such a criminally broken system around this? I never claimed it was IRC. 18:29:07 zzo38: And sending random text or whatnot is fine. 18:29:12 Gregor: I know that. But if it is IRC there is obviously those way. If it isn't IRC, there might be other ways. 18:29:21 ais523: what did he conclude? 18:29:26 And there are ways that are not even part of the protocol, possibly. 18:29:26 Phantom_Hoover: got all but #1, very small sample size there 18:29:28 thinking about it 18:29:45 alise: first they convinced him it was a rather inept bot, and he believed it 18:29:53 zzo38: Everything you're mentioning is /within the realm of what the judge is allowed to do/, you just need to respond in the right bot way. 18:29:55 and then they used the fact he thought it was a bot to try to weird him out 18:30:04 ais523: did it work? 18:30:09 eventually he side-channeled it, on the basis that everyone was too busy laughing 18:30:15 alise, it was a first run. 18:30:16 but it worked for a while 18:30:21 Phantom_Hoover: ? 18:30:29 I couldn't be bothered doing it for lots of names. 18:30:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:31:00 zzo38: And really, your only argument thusfar is "if you fuck it up really bad, the judge can cheat". So don't fuck it up so bad :P 18:31:27 Phantom_Hoover: 18:31:28 #1 = I don't know; uses standard orthography, may be quoting some incorrect source or simply having typoed meaning no strong aversion to uppercase/exclamations for probably-comedic effect. "Well, pressable, apparently." seems to suggest someone, but I don't know who. 18:31:28 #2 = uorygl (if not, then maybe Phantom_Hoover? probably not) 18:31:28 #3 = oklopol 18:31:28 #4 = Gregor 18:31:30 * oerjan _thinks_ #3 may be oklopol 18:31:35 Gregor: Ah, OK. (I suppose if it is IRC, it is possible to write te client to do certain things with CTRL+A VERSION and so on, is that cheating?) But it doesn't have to be IRC, it can be a simple protocol 18:31:45 Phantom_Hoover: These are my guesses. 18:31:49 zzo38: It can be a web page where you enter text. 18:31:51 And that's it. 18:31:52 (i _had_ typed that, just needed to press enter) 18:31:54 oh, #2 also use comma pings 18:31:54 That's the whole interface. 18:31:56 so it can't be Phantom_Hoover 18:31:59 no wait 18:32:01 it can be 18:32:05 he uses comma-highlights 18:32:05 Gregor: That doesn't count as a simple protocol like I said 18:32:15 ok, I know believe it's more balanced between uorgyl and phanty 18:32:19 but i'll still go for uorygl 18:32:21 alise, you remember details like that? 18:32:22 no, wait, no 18:32:25 Phantom_Hoover 18:32:27 zzo38: There's no value in making this have a "simple protocol", and I never claimed it would. 18:32:29 it's Phantom_Hoover 18:32:33 Phantom_Hoover: rank my guesses? 18:32:56 #4 is wrong, but #3 and #2 are correct. 18:33:27 Muahahahaha 18:33:49 Phantom_Hoover: so it was you? 18:33:50 A simple protocol would be where two clients tonnect to the judge's server... The judge's screen displays messages with their IP address and broadcasts messages typed to the clients. To make it a bit harder to cheat, both clients can connect through Tor nodes 18:33:51 ok. 18:34:03 hmm #4... 18:34:10 zzo38: That makes timing a nightmare. 18:34:22 14:24:17 <#4> They'd be all "sorry, we're out of numbers right now, but we'll be getting more next Tuesday from our number mines". 18:34:22 14:24:45 <#4> Everything comes from mines. 18:34:22 14:25:27 <#4> Yes, they refine primes from large composites extracted from the earth. 18:34:32 fizzie 18:34:34 Phantom_Hoover: fizzie 18:34:34 zzo38: The bot can always respond instantly, but the user will take time, messages need to be buffered for some predetermined amount of time (30 seconds?) to get rid of the timing channel. 18:34:43 30 seconds is too much 18:34:46 make it 10 18:34:54 alise, correct 18:34:56 Phantom_Hoover: :) 18:35:00 alise: Give the user time to think :P 18:35:00 who's #1? 18:35:06 Gregor: 15 to 20, then 18:35:09 Gregor: 30 is just boring 18:35:14 Gregor: also, if the user enters faster 18:35:17 have it send both 18:35:31 alise: But then the length of the bot's submission could make it obvious. 18:35:43 Gregor: i didn't actually read the idea :) 18:35:44 alise: If you say "yes" and the bot spits out Moby Dick, and it sends in 3 seconds, GEEE 18:35:52 Phantom_Hoover: So yeah, I am pretty good at it. 18:35:55 You are right about that 18:36:06 #1 was cpressey. 18:36:06 Gregor: so make it not spit out moby dick :P 18:36:19 alise: Remember, the bot writer wants the judge to think their bot IS a bot. 18:36:26 Phantom_Hoover: ah, i wouldn't have got that 18:36:27 alise: And that would make it clear that their bot is a botr. 18:36:28 *bot 18:36:30 was the CERTIAN thing a quote 18:36:31 ? 18:36:35 Yes. 18:36:41 Gregor: so the human has to pretend to be a bot? 18:36:46 Phantom_Hoover: okay. what's the day, fwiw? 18:36:46 Would the Moby Dick be too large file? 18:36:52 alise: That's the whole idea. 18:36:57 zzo38: Probably :P 18:37:11 Gregor: well that's easy 18:37:14 just say whatever eliza would say 18:37:23 alise, 30/6/10 18:37:29 (Even if it is HTTP, the server can easily reject a file that is too large) 18:37:34 alise: But ELIZA is too easy, if the bot is slightly more cleverer, they'll figure the human is being an idiot and the bot is really the bot. 18:37:38 alise: The judge isn't a retard. 18:37:53 erm 18:37:56 i'd always mark eliza as a bot :P 18:38:03 or are we trying to make the bots more realistic? 18:38:07 which would make them less humanlike 18:38:08 erm 18:38:10 more humanlike 18:38:12 defeating the point 18:38:14 alise: Doesn't matter. 18:38:17 wat. 18:38:26 alise: The bots are whatever bots seem OK, that's like, the whole trick to the thing. 18:38:29 I remember seeing an ELIZA thing on TV 18:38:35 Which interested me in Pandorabots somehow 18:38:38 Gregor: then why not eliza 18:38:44 And I don't know if that actually lead anywhere 18:39:15 I have run the ELIZA program manually using dice, before. 18:39:22 alise: The bot COULD be eliza, but if the majority of the bots in the botbank AREN'T eliza, then just going with the one that seems like eliza is a bad guess. 18:39:42 Gregor: Well, get coding. 18:39:57 Gregor: Or I guess I could :P 18:39:59 The Mangy looking leper begs you for money. 18:40:57 The Novice ranger tries to cast a spell, but fails. 18:41:22 alise: In fact, it would even be OK to have an interface that just lets you chat with some bot, to try to get an idea of what the bots in the botbank are like. 18:41:35 Gregor: makes it too easy and less hilarious 18:41:57 alise: How does it make it too easy? The judge and the answerer can both chat with the bot. 18:42:15 because you could just intricately study every bot 18:42:24 and typos would let you win 18:42:28 You feel yourself yanked downwards! 18:42:30 typos of humans 18:42:31 imitating bots 18:42:55 alise: You think you can imitate a bot that well, with any amount of studying at it, but with the input being unpredictable? I think you're being extremely optimistic. 18:43:16 -!- delayed_optbot has joined. 18:43:24 It's not that hard, is it, delayed_optbot? 18:43:32 alise: I don't see how that architecture could ever work :-P 18:43:39 Why not, delayed_optbot? 18:43:45 delayed_optbot: or if you didn't 18:43:49 whops 18:43:51 *whoops 18:43:52 there goes my jig 18:43:54 -!- delayed_optbot has quit (Client Quit). 18:44:07 It went up. 18:44:08 i am the worst bot ever 18:44:08 It's still rising. 18:44:55 Gregor: SO NT 4 18:45:03 Hey, get delayed_optbot on. 18:45:24 ON JSMIPS 18:45:25 Phantom_Hoover: For what? 18:45:31 Gregor: http://github.com/tycho/openhackware 18:45:35 Gregor: Maybe the latest version will work better. 18:45:49 alise: Latest version is the version Debian has. 18:45:57 Latest *git commit*? Okaay. 18:46:17 Gregor: I bet we can get OpenHackware working with latest qemu. 18:46:41 @pl \f x -> f $ f $ f x 18:46:41 ap (.) (join (.)) 18:46:49 @type ap 18:46:50 forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b 18:46:58 With the right -M. 18:48:19 Gregor: hmm, does it have any compilation options? 18:48:21 like for certain machines 18:48:36 The only machine it supports is QEmu. 18:48:37 I like being able to type in Unicode⚠ 18:48:55 Gregor: but it says machine meulation 18:48:56 *emulation 18:48:58 [[OpenHackWare is an OpenFirmware emulator intended to be used on PowerPC machines. It is not a real OpenFirmware as it knows nothing about Forth. It emulates the OpenFirmware boot time interface as well as the RTAS interface. It also emulates some known "interpret" strings, to make it able to launch known OSes.]] 18:48:59 hmm 18:49:02 so it does openfirmware too, why 18:49:11 ○ 18:49:16  18:49:20 -!- distant_figure has joined. 18:49:20 What did I just type? 18:49:27 Sgeo: Nonsense. 18:49:28 FEF 18:49:30 FEFF 18:49:33 Gregor: http://www.openfirmware.info/SmartFirmware 18:49:33 What's FEFF? 18:49:38 Gregor: An alternate Open Firmware implementation. 18:49:40 Hey, does anyone remember that relativistic CA we tried to make a while ago? 18:49:49 Isn't OpenFirmware use Forth? 18:50:07 뻯 18:50:08 BEEF 18:50:09 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 18:50:11 It appears that someone managed to get SR working in a CA. 18:50:15 lol wat 18:50:27 U+BEEF = 뻯 18:51:09 Someone called Mark Smith, apparently. 18:51:18 Phantom_Hoover: link 18:51:50 http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/wolfram/ mentions it tangentially. 18:52:12 mark smith is the 110 prover 18:52:18 no wait 18:52:21 that was matthew cook 18:52:50 1994 mit dissertions with cellular automat(a|on) in the title 18:52:51 go search 18:53:08 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CBwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.18.7750%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&rct=j&q=Mark%20Smith%20relativistic%20cellular%20automaton&ei=KoifTLCRM8f24AbY5IytDg&usg=AFQjCNFEED0eug9-OOdH4yWN5y9vtTaMtw&sig2=aq92m9j25Gxoal_PLVFcnQ&cad=rja seems to be it. 18:54:13 alise: Doesn't support PPC 18:54:27 Gregor: FML 18:54:33 Gregor: Okay, so, MIPS! 18:54:37 Why does it freeze 18:54:43 * Sgeo misread that as power 18:54:46 I don't care, 3.51 rules 18:54:59 Gregor: You're crazy. 18:55:09 Gregor: Also, ahem. 18:55:11 The challenge NEVER ENDS. 18:55:21 testtest 18:55:25 Dude, 3.51 is win32 with a win16-like interface! 18:55:26 IT IS AWESOME 18:55:39 Win16-like interface = horrible :P 18:55:44 sadf 18:55:48 Gregor: Anyway, the challenge DOES NOT END. We made an agreement. CONTINUE 18:56:12 I'm done, I got Windows NT running on MIPS. 18:56:59 Gregor: We said NT 4. 18:57:20 I DON'T CARE 18:57:31 «» 18:57:45 Gregor, JSMIPS JSMIPS JSMIPS 18:57:53 §4 of that dissertation has the Lorenz-invariant CA stuff, it appears. 18:58:02 Gregor: You violated a secret oath. 18:58:08 Phantom_Hoover: § is section, not page, you know 18:58:14 § 18:58:14 *know. 18:58:17 Oh, you meant section. 18:58:17 § 18:58:22 alise, that's precisely what I meant! 18:58:28 § is a simoleon 19:00:12 Um 19:00:18 ␦ 19:00:37 ␇ 19:00:54 What good is the symbols for control characters if the damn symbols don't show up? 19:00:59 Sgeo, we get it. You can dump Unicode into the channel. 19:01:25 And the symbols for control characters don't show up because THEY'RE CONTROL CHARACTERS. 19:01:38 THEY SHOULDN'T BE PRINTED. 19:01:47 No, those are supposed to be the symbols that represent them when you want to print something 19:01:49 I think 19:02:13 NUL on a diagonal 19:02:13 etc 19:02:24 ✆ 19:02:47 Again, control characters should never be represented graphically. 19:03:19 � 19:04:33 Phantom_Hoover: they can be in e.g. editors that edit binary files 19:05:11 alise, yes, that's what the fancy representations are for. 19:05:28 And those fancy representations are what I was trying to print 19:05:34 But Sgeo seems to expect them to be printed if there's a null in the channel. 19:05:41 Or somesuch. 19:05:44 hmm 19:05:45 No, I didn't 19:05:51 lightspeed doesn't require infinite energy in CAs 19:05:55 e.g. th elightspeed telegraph 19:06:01 ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 19:06:04 my 19:06:22 alise: not in the real world either, as long as you use luxons 19:06:28 longest living zangband character just died ad fucking dlvl 11 by disease 19:06:34 http://decodeunicode.org/en/control_pictures 19:06:41 "EDIT This Unicode block is a collection of visible glyphs for control characters." 19:06:42 i played with this goddamn char whole summer 19:06:45 oerjan: lawl 19:06:49 fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 19:06:50 alise, it's a single relativistic CA. 19:06:53 oerjan: still, though :P 19:06:55 Phantom_Hoover: i'm jst saying 19:06:58 *just 19:07:04 And there's not even a sensible formulation of "energy" in Life. 19:07:45 -!- myndzi has joined. 19:08:12 there must be 19:08:13 :P 19:08:20 i'm in a despair 19:08:39 Well, not force times distance. 19:08:56 why now! 19:08:57 ?! 19:08:57 Maybe you meant: . ? @ v 19:08:58 Gregor: New challenge. 19:09:01 HURD on real hardware. 19:09:07 Preferably: Itanium. 19:09:14 turd on real hardware 19:09:16 alise: you need a hamiltonian/lagrangian mechanics for energy to really make sense, afaik 19:09:18 Trying to apply physical things to Life is stupid in the first place. 19:09:20 hmm, quite easy 19:09:28 you're stupid in the first place 19:09:38 nooga: good luck getting an itanium workstation 19:09:43 Your mother is stupid in the first place. 19:10:00 alise: life isn't reversible like microscopic physics, for one thing 19:10:12 true 19:10:13 hmm 19:10:18 what's the most interesting reversible CA? 19:10:49 no idea, although rule 30 is at least locally reversible 19:10:56 iirc 19:11:02 2D :P 19:11:23 well i don't _know_ any notable 2d reversible ones 19:11:26 * Phantom_Hoover isn't even sure if there *are* any 2D reversible CAs of interest. 19:11:48 incidentally global reversibility is undecidable for 2d CAs but not for 1d iirc 19:12:18 (that's a big iirc in this case) 19:13:07 got to be 19:13:10 even if they're >2 colours 19:15:02 Hmm. 19:15:11 Is the HPP lattice gas reversible? 19:15:27 Excluding sinks. 19:15:31 And sources. 19:15:33 Undecidable? 19:15:36 As in, it can 19:15:56 can't be algorithmically determined, for any 2d ca, whether or not it's globally reversable 19:15:59 ? 19:16:09 well that's what i _think_ i am recalling 19:16:17 Sgeo, yes. 19:16:24 that seems obvious to me :) 19:16:33 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/HPP_small.gif hypnotic 19:16:33 IIRTWPAIAWC 19:16:34 What's the difference between global and local reversibility? 19:16:44 hmm if you have a bunch of arrows 19:16:50 then obviously to reverse a state, make it move back one 19:16:57 but if they go in opposite directions when collided 19:17:01 * Phantom_Hoover loves how much of WP's CA stuff is from Golly. 19:17:03 then whenever you have e.g. <> 19:17:06 just flip both of them to reverse 19:17:11 or if they advance one at the same time 19:17:17 then <.> turns into >< 19:17:22 OK, so that's the most interesting one I can think of. 19:17:24 same with colliding wals 19:17:26 *walls 19:17:31 so at least the version in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/HPP_small.gif is easy enoughto reverse 19:17:36 otoh, it isn't terribly interesting 19:17:41 there are reversible turing machines 19:19:19 Langton's ant with a single ant? 19:19:31 Sgeo: well global would mean here that a given configuration of the _whole_ infinite space has only one possible parent 19:19:58 not langton's ant, surely 19:20:06 not when it collides 19:20:08 after spinning off 19:20:12 dunno, maybe i'm wrong 19:20:25 Well, maybe. 19:20:28 One consequence: If there's life, it can never die out 19:20:30 hmm perhaps the best way of designing a reversible CA is figuring out how to go one step backwards, then just doing that in reverse >:) 19:20:31 That's awesome 19:20:33 (yes, that *is* a joke) 19:20:38 Sgeo: untrue 19:20:41 it can die out as long as it leaves a corpse 19:20:47 while local would mean that if you have most of the parent configuration itself, but are missing a finite portion, you can only fill it in in one way 19:21:00 rule 30 fulfils the latter but not the first iirc 19:21:06 I was thinking that if you retraced the ant's steps, that would make it reversible. 19:21:54 Can something be globally reversable but not locally? 19:22:11 no 19:22:55 alise, corpses have to live 19:23:12 what 19:23:22 no, it could just stay there forever 19:23:25 immortal but unmoving 19:23:25 You can't go from non-still-life to still-life 19:23:59 not in Life 19:24:06 well, that's not true 19:24:10 you can collide with something else in Life 19:24:14 but who said we're talking about Life? 19:24:16 Life isn't reversible 19:24:24 * Sgeo was talking about a globally reversable CA 19:24:29 then 19:24:30 You can't go from non-still-life to still-life 19:24:33 is not necessarily true at all 19:25:55 Sgeo: no because globally reversable means you have a unique parent even if you have _no_ information about it beyond its child configuration. btw i'm probably misremembering terminology something vicious here 19:26:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton#Reversible corresponds to what i call global 19:28:18 So, what 19:28:34 what's the unique parent of a stilllife that a non-stillife gave rise to? 19:29:05 alise: in a reversible automaton you cannot get a still-life from a non-still life because a still life is its own parent and can have no non-stillife one 19:29:38 * oerjan marvels at his own inconsistent hyphenation 19:29:45 oerjan: oh, of course 19:29:58 well Sgeo it could turn into a very stupid form of life, i guess 19:30:57 I actually understood something before alise did? 19:31:02 What is this witchcraftery? 19:32:03 THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH 19:33:00 hm another way of saying what i call local reversibility is that two configurations that differ in a finite set of cells cannot have the same child 19:34:02 But on the other hand, life will never be able to venture into the empty universe 19:34:26 Sgeo: er what? 19:34:59 Hmm 19:35:04 Maybe nevermind 19:35:37 for a reversible CA you could have something that shrunk from unbounded size to something small, then expanded back again 19:36:51 otoh if a configuration's ancestors are all finite then they must repeat, and so the descendants are also (the same repeating) finite configurations 19:37:01 um 19:37:07 *within a finite area 19:37:07 hmm, so basically all life grows eternally :) 19:37:17 well 19:37:22 or ungrows and regrows forever 19:37:27 living your life backwards :P 19:37:29 hmm 19:37:33 if it starts living its life backwards 19:37:37 then nothing can change 19:37:38 that is 19:37:40 Sgeo, incidentally, you can go from spaceshipoid to still-life in Life. 19:37:42 nobody can suddenly shoot it while it's regressing 19:37:47 because that would mean it wouldn't have finite states 19:37:48 right? 19:37:59 because the predecessor of point P would be in one timeline whatever should happena 19:38:01 and in the other 19:38:01 alise: it doesn't have to go backwards the same path, you just need a cycle 19:38:02 getting shot 19:38:11 oerjan: hm? but it's global 19:38:32 i mean if it's finite always 19:38:47 Spaceship guns would be illegal, too... 19:38:55 also my correction above was because you can obviously have something that's finite but eternally moving 19:39:04 Could a hypothetical scientist in a CA ever deduce that cells and generations exist? 19:39:16 Sgeo, it depends. 19:39:23 I thought about that a while ago. 19:39:40 well, he could create an accurate model with them 19:39:42 Sgeo: why not, we in the real world have hypothesized planck time and length 19:39:45 but i don't think you could verify it 19:39:59 It could have a particle accelerator that fired gliders at each other and checked the debris. 19:40:03 because you can't "see" a dot moving from one cell to another 19:40:11 so it looks continuous to you 19:40:12 and a CA world _might_ have an easier time proving it 19:40:18 because you only exist "in" the generations too 19:40:40 Although life in Life would either be insanely sparse and ultra-redundant, or so fragile it would die before it could do anything. 19:41:21 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:41:59 i doubt Life itself can sustain life 19:42:01 Which leads to the interesting scenario that they would have a workable equivalent of attotechnology. 19:42:02 well 19:42:05 it obviously can sustain life 19:42:08 e.g. gliders 19:42:11 of a sort 19:42:13 hmm 19:42:22 can you make "life" in Life that has to pick up "food" every now and then? 19:42:24 or it dies? 19:42:27 Well, it could have a very very sparse universe. 19:42:34 Life is turing-complete 19:42:39 And the main competition in CAs is space. 19:42:44 and maybe the more food it has, it goes faster? 19:42:45 If we can simulate a mind in a computer, we could simulate it in Life 19:42:45 (up to a point) 19:42:47 Check the evoloop patterns in golly. 19:43:06 22:14:07 Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt. 19:43:09 compile rawirc 19:43:26 alise, assuming evolution, the first lifeform to develop a power source would dominate completely. 19:43:31 Although such a simulation would likely not be able to do science at the level required.. 19:43:48 If it is turing complete then it would be possible to make it have to pick up food every now and then, I suppose, but not necessarily in a way that might be expected 19:44:00 hmm 19:44:08 there's a replicator in life 19:44:12 (knightship, but it just erases itself) 19:44:15 so that's asexual reproduction 19:44:19 is there any sexual reproduction in life? 19:44:19 Let's assume that the lifeform is made of very sparse, stable technology. 19:44:23 like, so far known 19:44:30 With redundancy to a great degree. 19:44:45 two ships of some sort that, when some part of them collides in a certain way, they build a third ship 19:44:47 and then continue on 19:45:01 So a stray glider won't cause the kind of catastrophic collapse it does with periodic, dense constructs. 19:45:20 alise, I haven't been following the Life news lately. 19:45:46 That replicator came out of nowhere, and people were tinkering with it when I stopped checking regularly. 19:46:09 Oh, there's a replicator gun. 19:46:21 haha really? link? 19:46:28 anyway sexual reproduction would be interesting if it exists 19:46:32 * Phantom_Hoover loads it into Golly 19:46:41 alise, http://pentadecathlon.com/lifeNews/index.php 19:46:43 http://linuxdesk.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/could-not-open-location-you-might-not-have-permission-to-open-the-file-totem-movie-player/ 19:46:44 grrrr 19:46:50 I don't see a youtube.py to patch 19:46:52 because i'd say that anything that 1) relies on food to survive and 2) reproduces sexually is DEFINITELY life 19:47:10 (things that don't meet those criteria can be life too, it's just that I think anything that fulfils those two is unquestionably life) 19:47:24 Holy crap it's huge. 19:47:42 i seem to recall some "official" definition of life involving "capable of undergoing darwinian evolution" 19:47:51 oerjan: that's just in our universe :-) 19:47:53 hmm 19:47:59 * Sgeo wants conscious life 19:48:01 if you had those food-eating, reproducing creatures 19:48:03 Well, any form of evolution would pretty quickly lead to lifeforms with their own power supply. 19:48:04 That can do science! 19:48:08 and put them in a repeating pattern of space with food in it 19:48:10 that'd be interesting 19:48:14 But they will compete for space. 19:48:19 because if they're stupid and reproduce in an area they've already gobbled up 19:48:25 their babies will die before they reach food 19:48:27 but if they're not 19:48:30 to start with 19:48:31 and reproduce enough 19:48:36 there's a very high chance they'll reproduce forever 19:48:40 And some of the space will be unusable, either from corpses or random bits of ash left over from initialisation 19:48:51 How do we make it so it selects for intelligence? 19:48:55 So you could get evolution going. 19:48:57 you can't 19:49:00 evolution isn't something you design... 19:49:02 that's sort of the point 19:49:14 What pressures could we apply, I mean 19:49:17 evolution is what happens when you have threats in an environment and random mutation due to reproduction 19:49:22 make clever bad guys. 19:49:24 which is the same problem 19:49:26 so basically nothing 19:49:32 Sgeo, if a lifeform can work out how to fix unusable space, it would have an advantage. 19:49:43 So there's a possible selection for intelligence. 19:49:57 And sophisticated manipulation and sensory equipment. 19:51:05 of course what we really want is lifeforms made out of the equivalent of a few hundreds to a few thousands of particles 19:51:15 when in reality you'd almost certainly have to zoom way, way, way out to see anything 19:51:22 and at that scale the actual life mechanics aren't very interesting or relevant 19:51:22 (Have I made it clear what my assumed lifeforms are like, by the way?" 19:51:25 *) 19:51:27 no 19:51:45 Very sparse, stable, redundant components for everything. 19:51:50 oh right. 19:51:53 So they're fairly durable. 19:52:08 "Powered" by glider streams between components. 19:52:10 for my idea of a simple definitely-lifeform, i'm imagining spaceships with little dangly reproductive bits that, when a certain part collides with the reproductive bit, both of them work to create a clone 19:52:11 Eventually, when we notice them working on low-level physics, how do we communicate with them? 19:52:13 and then continue on 19:52:23 and, also, some sort of energy supply that can be replenished by them going into food 19:52:31 (ideally they'd search for it in a stupid way) 19:52:40 Well, they could send out glider and LWSS streams to sense things. 19:52:46 if we got that, I'd have the firm conviction that Life can sustain life 19:53:01 And communicate information such as genetic code. 19:53:04 Phantom_Hoover: true, hey, it'd be peacocky 19:53:10 if we had evolution, 19:53:15 they'd evolve things that absorb gliders 19:53:19 They woudln't know to attempt to initiate communication 19:53:21 and send back an "OMG REALLY FERTILE HOT HOT" signal 19:53:23 :) 19:53:25 "Look at what fancy spaceships I can synthesise!" 19:53:48 Sgeo: we don't communicate 19:53:49 Which directly implies good synthesis apparatus and patterns. 19:53:53 it would be very hard to 19:54:00 it is incredibly unlikely that they will be anything like us 19:54:12 heck, even communicating with aliens in this universe is a huge chore at best 19:54:15 and basically impossible at worse 19:54:24 we're talking about different *fundamental universe structures* here 19:54:39 so... we just watch. and don't interfere. 19:54:49 -!- augur has joined. 19:54:51 But we understand to some extent how their universal structure works 19:55:06 Better than they do... although perhaps at too low a level to be useful 19:55:11 now pile an incomprehensible number of layers of complexity on top of it 19:55:16 plus an evolved form of life that we didn't design 19:55:20 that has evolved so much it's intelligent 19:55:29 and is therefore utterly incomprehensible to us with very high probability 19:55:44 Incidentally, I can see them discovering particle physics in this model. 19:56:05 ;fd 19:56:05 their particle physics, presumably 19:56:09 Yes. 19:56:11 tpp 19:56:12 agreed, but they wouldn't be able to verify that they're in a discrete universe 19:56:13 because 19:56:22 to do that, you'd have to observe a dot jumping from one cell to another 19:56:22 I'd like to see their Standard Model... 19:56:27 now, they can't 19:56:31 because they *don't exist* in those moments 19:56:40 because they're busy state-changing themselves 19:56:43 and this applies to all machinery too 19:56:50 so to them, the universe looks completely continuous 19:56:52 how freaky is that?! 19:56:53 # 19:56:53 alise, they could do things that a discrete universe is the best explanation for? 19:56:55 *no # 19:57:01 cmdk 19:57:01 Sgeo: perhaps 19:57:04 True, but if they discovered the b3/s23 mechanic independently and then discovered "hey, this *exactly* models the results for the LGC!" 19:57:10 but they could never observe a discrete universe 19:57:13 large glider collider :D 19:57:17 Phantom_Hoover: yep 19:57:19 it's just crazy, i mean 19:57:22 we could be in a discrete universe 19:57:25 even though it looks completely continuous 19:57:27 well, maybe 19:57:30 We probably *are*. 19:57:36 I thought it looks discrete to us? 19:57:39 planck length, etc 19:57:40 Sgeo: not really 19:57:46 planck length is just the length below which everything is fucking strange 19:57:58 which is actually quite an indicator that we're not seeing what's really going on there 19:58:04 so planck length may be our cell size :) 19:58:09 Phantom_Hoover: i wouldn't go so far as probably, Mr. Wolfram 19:58:11 but it sure is interesting 19:58:19 i love this stuff 19:58:27 Incidentally, this also gives them the ability to design microchips. 19:58:33 mm 19:58:40 synthesis is a bit hard in CA universes i think 19:58:50 but they'll be at such a macroscopic scale that they won't see the microscopic particles doing crazy shit to get it done :) 19:58:53 not sure they could evolve it though 19:58:57 By using the kind of circuitry we do. 19:59:04 Phantom_Hoover: WireWorld :-) 19:59:13 I still want to talk to them :( 19:59:26 Maybe tell them about cells and generations 19:59:27 I was thinking more of p30 and p46 glider circuits. 19:59:35 Sgeo: even if you /could/, there's no way you'd possibly live long enough to see them evolve into intelligent life! 19:59:45 even the fastest Life simulators run many times slower than our freaking universe! 19:59:47 many, many times slower! 19:59:50 Which run *very* quickly compared to even our stable technology. 19:59:53 we're talking about the entirety of evolution up to humans here! 20:00:26 the only way this will _ever_ happen is if there is some kind of lunatic project to run and maintain an almost impossibly-fast computer running this over the course of countless civilisations, disasters, wars -- anything 20:00:40 that somehow *survives* for those -- I don't even know how many years it'd take, far too many, anyway. 20:00:45 * Sgeo decides to rename alise to Debbie Downer 20:00:49 now 20:00:52 if we're in a post-singularity situation 20:00:54 all living inside its VR 20:00:55 that is 20:00:57 time outside is irrelevant 20:01:09 and a gajillion years may pass in what is everyone's perceived second 20:01:15 then it could be done in seconds 20:01:28 by simply running (an incomprehensible number) of generations every tick of the AI 20:01:38 which would have no subjective effect on us 20:01:44 and we could observe it going by awfully quickly 20:02:16 (now whether we'd be around to recognise civilisation before it puffs out, who knows? the AI could store all the past generations if the universe has boundless storage... (or just really, REALLY incomprehensibly big storage)) 20:03:25 this stuff is ridiculously interesting 20:03:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:03:28 Phantom_Hoover: talk more 20:03:28 ARGH 20:03:32 DUMBASSES 20:03:33 http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=53512&start=0 20:03:33 -!- augur has joined. 20:03:38 You are so fucking unhelpful 20:03:50 Well, I was thinking about the LGC. 20:03:53 Or LSC. 20:04:02 LHC 20:04:07 linux mint is dumbness 20:04:14 Large HWSS Collider? 20:04:24 alise, I have the same problem as in that post 20:04:32 But the responders seem to be less-than-bright 20:04:40 they're linux mint users 20:04:55 Although maybe Mplayer would work... 20:05:06 Phantom_Hoover: i would be very surprised if intelligent organisms had fine enough control to synthesise gliders. 20:05:12 but then, the fact that we can do the LHC is surprising too :) 20:05:25 Well, an alien watching us in the stone age would say the same. 20:05:46 "Oh, I suppose they'll split the atom with a pointy rock." 20:05:56 :D 20:06:11 "It's a really, really sharp rock, though." "But it's a ROCK." 20:07:03 I'm assuming that there was an evolutionary advantage already to fine glider syntheses. 20:07:04 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:07:13 Since they are useful for a lot of things. 20:07:42 imagine if they discovered the lightspeed telegraph :) 20:07:55 "What the fucking fucking what." "Yeah, you know what? I'ma start believing in God." 20:08:14 Agar: 20:08:20 "THIS MAKES NO FREAKING SENSE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" 20:08:29 heh 20:08:41 Agar was one of the things I considered them discovering. 20:08:44 Phantom_Hoover: I bet the bubbles in agar end up revolutionising their physics into something completely incomprehensible like quantum physics did for us :) 20:08:57 but otoh 20:09:01 how the hell would they observe agar? 20:09:04 you can't really, can you? 20:09:07 only the time from start to end 20:09:09 not what happens inside 20:09:09 OTOH, their sensory arrays will cause a catastrophic collapse in the agar. 20:09:19 yeah 20:09:20 Huh, what's over th-- 20:09:24 If a bubble leaves the Agar... 20:09:26 and how the heck would they build it? 20:09:34 um what 20:09:34 *massive glider wash* 20:09:35 can you even build agar? 20:09:38 Oh 20:09:43 You can, but it's complex. 20:09:44 are you discussing life in game of life or something? 20:09:47 Phantom_Hoover: haha wow i just realised, what would a glider gun look like to them 20:09:50 Vorpal, yes 20:09:51 "WHAT THE FUCK ALL THE COLOURS" 20:09:52 Spacefillers do it, for insance. 20:09:53 ah 20:10:04 Phantom_Hoover: hey, still life would be invisible to them. 20:10:04 alise, probably like a laser, if anything. 20:10:05 well 20:10:06 What if they accidentally built a spacefiller? 20:10:13 if they used better spaceships 20:10:14 Unless they hit it with a glider. 20:10:16 to see 20:10:17 Sgeo, not much. 20:10:20 then they could see still life 20:10:22 alise, is *intelligent* life possible in a completely deterministic simulation? 20:10:25 It would hit something and burn. 20:10:32 Vorpal, naturally. 20:10:34 Vorpal: yes. 20:10:37 unless you believe in free will 20:10:37 well, that depends on your view of free will I guess 20:10:39 which just makes you an idiot 20:10:49 (free will in /that/ sense, that is) 20:11:00 Sgeo, most of our Life patterns are unbelievably fragile. 20:11:12 i don't think you can synthesise a spacefiller 20:11:15 at least not with current knowledge 20:11:17 A single cell inverted can destroy everything. 20:11:27 although yeah, you just need better lifeforms :P 20:11:30 you can easily destroy a spacefiller 20:11:35 You should be *able* to synth a spacefiller. 20:11:35 "easily" 20:11:37 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:11:44 Phantom_Hoover: oh right tur 20:11:45 *true 20:11:48 GoL Life might end up being just that fragile 20:11:48 alise, the "real" world isn't deterministic, at least if you subscribe to quantum mechanics 20:11:54 Such that a stray glider kills everyone 20:11:56 well, is it known that salvo glider synthesis or whatever it is 20:12:02 is it known that you can synthesise more than that? 20:12:06 Vorpal: not necessarily true at all 20:12:14 Then science comes along.. 20:12:14 Vorpal: they could be pseudorandom numbers from the universe above 20:12:19 which would look totally random to us 20:12:21 alise, hm okay 20:12:22 assuming we don't know the seed, etc. 20:12:29 besides 20:12:37 i sort of doubt quantum effects *give the brain free will* 20:12:37 Global synthesis is still unsolved. 20:12:39 that's just insane 20:12:44 * Sgeo agrees with alise 20:12:56 iirc neurons interact in some way with quantum effects 20:12:57 alise, true, just saying it isn't deterministic 20:13:05 I used to ponder that God interacted with the world by quantum effects 20:13:05 but i doubt that matters as much as the free will believers would like to think 20:13:12 you used to ponder some stupid stuff :P 20:13:36 Wait, neurons do interact with quantum effects? 20:13:37 In my opinion, quantum effects are part of the effect that makes free will, and possibly also partially the effect of consciousness. 20:13:39 * Phantom_Hoover pondered if everyone in the world was a reincarnation of his line of consciousness, conspiring against him. 20:13:42 Sgeo: well it was a pop science article 20:13:43 so probably not 20:13:52 but apparently some little element of neurons was quantum 20:13:53 i dunno 20:13:55 a lot of things does that you wouldn't think do 20:13:59 Phantom_Hoover: there's a very short story about that 20:14:01 (interact with quantum effects that is) 20:14:03 like gold. 20:14:20 iirc gold is yellowish due to quantum tunnelling 20:14:20 Incidentally, you actually construct nigh-invulnerable shielding in Life. 20:14:21 tl;dr he dies, "hi, i'm you." "wat" "so is everyone else." "ohhh" "you're actually an alien trying this shit out." "ok" "have fun" [revived] 20:14:25 Phantom_Hoover: is there a database of life patterns anywhere? 20:14:27 disconnected from the wiki 20:14:34 stores rle, shows it, description, comments, categories 20:14:44 gives them all unique identifiers 20:14:45 if not, why not? 20:14:55 Well, there's the Life Lexicon, but it's not at all thorough. 20:14:55 Vorpal: O, so that is why elements are the color they are? 20:14:56 Vorpal: yeah gold's colour is cool :) 20:15:01 zzo38: not necessarily 20:15:02 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:15:03 just gold, i think 20:15:06 and maybe some others 20:15:08 not every element by far 20:15:11 Let's pretend that it weren't completely impossible, and try to communicate with GoL intelligent life 20:15:11 gold is a strange one 20:15:14 What would we say? 20:15:18 Just gold? 20:15:21 Sgeo: does it matter? they wouldn't believe us. 20:15:23 zzo38, maybe copper too 20:15:24 Sgeo, b3s23 20:15:29 at least not their sceptics 20:15:37 We could prove it 20:15:44 no we couldn't 20:15:45 by definition 20:15:49 We could ask them to perform some experiment, and change the result wildly 20:15:57 you can always formulate a new theory of physics that works like that 20:16:01 that's why we can't be sure god exists in here 20:16:04 and it is in fact an argument often posed 20:16:08 Oh, prove that physics is what we describe it to be 20:16:09 zzo38, anyway it is just for metals in the metal state. If they aren't greyish (copper and gold are the only ones iirc?) then it might be quantum tunneling 20:16:17 Sgeo: impossible 20:16:27 alise, that's what you were getting at? 20:16:30 Hmm 20:16:33 Vorpal: So that's why! Now I understand a little bit. 20:16:44 it is possible to be very convincing 20:16:50 but we can never prove it outright 20:16:53 zzo38, well, I'm not completely sure that is the case for copper. *googles* 20:16:56 and, well, i have a feeling that in *this* universe 20:17:08 there is a _sizeable_ amount of atheists who would *never* believe 20:17:26 (not *rationalists* of course, but *atheists*) 20:17:34 Even if a voice came out, stated "Run this experiment, this is waht the result would be", etc.? 20:17:34 ah no, not the case for copper 20:17:35 (although they probably think of themselves as the former) 20:17:41 Sgeo: you don't seem to understand what proof means 20:17:44 "Copper, osmium (blueish) and gold (yellow) are the only three elemental metals with a natural color other than gray or silver.[3]" 20:17:46 even evolution isn't proven 20:17:57 proof is *rock hard* and *completely, mathematically unquestionable* even in theory 20:18:14 Hmm 20:18:22 of course very little is actually proven about this universe 20:18:24 if anything 20:18:26 so it's not a huge deal 20:18:34 but anyway, i think we'd have a hard time communicating like them 20:18:37 even if we knew their language 20:18:41 we don't know how they *think* 20:18:44 we don't know how to argue with them 20:18:47 we don't know how their logic works 20:18:57 so we'd have a very hard time convincing them of anything 20:19:08 zzo38, it seems to be different mechanisms for gold and copper 20:19:11 hmmmmmm 20:19:13 Incidentally, the direction rules in Life would lead to some interesting effects. 20:19:21 If you say everyone has a reincarnation of your (or a specific person's) line of consciousness, then you have failed to take it into account as the entire universe as a whole. Everything is a part of the entire universe as a whole, including by quantum entanglement and warped spacetime geometry and other things. 20:19:42 You would only be able to talk to someone if they were in a cardinal line with one of their emitter organs. 20:20:08 Phantom_Hoover: damn, imagine their porn. 20:20:12 Phantom_Hoover, how so? 20:20:24 also not true, there are non-cardinal spaceships 20:20:25 Phantom_Hoover, knightships 20:20:31 Vorpal, not simple ones. 20:20:37 Phantom_Hoover, well okay 20:20:38 that's true 20:20:43 i'll bet any sentient organism is a hell of a lot bigger than the knightship! 20:20:44 The smallest is the *replicator*, for pete's sake. 20:20:54 And it moves at a crawl. 20:21:01 There is evidence for micro-evolution and parts of macro-evolution, but that isn't proof, and we can have a lot of things about evolution wrong, that we do not know. Nevertheless, these theories can help even if they are entirely wrong. 20:21:08 Phantom_Hoover, correction: smallest known. There could be other ones. 20:21:08 What if this were in b36s23? 20:21:16 I suppose it would be all right for very long-distance communications along a well-maintained channel. 20:21:18 zzo38: macro-evolution is true. 20:21:29 Sgeo, the universe would be dominated by replicators 20:21:29 there is doubt, but it is so small as to fall far below the doubt we have in other things we readily accept. 20:21:35 BRB 20:21:39 alise: At least in general. Of course it is possible to have some details wrong. 20:21:44 zzo38: not really 20:21:48 evolution isn't very detailed 20:21:49 HL's replicator is pretty common in random soups. 20:21:50 it's a simple tautology 20:21:54 Phantom_Hoover, also, what about the diagonals? Gliders aren't moving in the cardinal directions 20:22:06 OK, cardinals + diagonals. 20:22:19 "if you have random mutations as part of reproduction, and you have threats, then obviously mutations that better survive threats will live to reproduce more, passing on this mutation" 20:22:31 "therefore, the offspring of the mutated will outlive the non-mutated, because they have better survival characteristics" 20:22:39 the end 20:23:05 evolution isn't very detailed <-- do you mean "natural selection" with evolution? 20:23:11 well, yes. 20:23:15 so does everyone else :) 20:23:33 evolution is just the changes being passed down, natural selection is why it helps :P 20:23:39 neither are questionable in any way 20:23:45 alise: Ah, if that is what you mean by "macro-evolution" then obviously it works. But it doesn't mean *everything* actually works that way, even if many things do work that way. 20:24:06 alise, hm I read somewhere that in the bleeding edge biology research there is a discussion if natural selection is the only driving force of evolution 20:24:21 there's discussion about an awful lot of crap in science :p 20:24:30 alise, what about genetic drift then? 20:24:37 yeah yeah i know 20:24:42 but natural selection IS a driving force 20:24:44 even if it isn't the only one 20:24:49 and i think it being the main one is basically assured 20:25:04 alise, I never disputed that it was the major one 20:25:11 Vorpal, sexual selection has long been acknowledged as a non-natural selective force. 20:25:14 just that it was the only one 20:25:32 Phantom_Hoover, hm sexual selection being? 20:25:49 (I'm no expert on this, I just remembered reading a few things) 20:26:06 Vorpal, what it says on the tin. One sex selects their mate based on a characteristic with no survival value. 20:26:12 Like a peacock's tail. 20:26:20 Or penis length :P 20:26:30 har 20:27:33 alise: That selection particularly has no survival value when it's the male doing the selection. 20:27:38 Organisms with the characteristic mate, others don't. 20:28:00 Gregor: Nothing has any relevance in homosexual couplings :P 20:28:06 Fun fact: humans have, proportionately, the longest penises of any apes. 20:28:07 Seeing as, y'know, there's no reproduction. 20:28:13 Phantom_Hoover: HA HA SUCKS TO BE APES 20:28:19 Wait, have you measured this? 20:28:23 *SUCKS TO BE NON-HUMAN APES 20:28:27 alise: Who said it was a homosexual coupling? Surely when choosing a female mate you want the one with the smallest penis size :P 20:28:29 YOU'RE AN APE 20:28:32 No, it was in one of Jared Diamond's books. 20:28:47 Gregor, breast size is similarly disproportionate. 20:28:48 Gregor: Pretty sure vaginoplasty does not include ovaroplasty yet :P 20:28:54 Ovaroplasty: WORST WORD EVER 20:29:08 Phantom_Hoover: "Disproportionate? I LIKE disproportionate." 20:29:17 alise, hence the selection. 20:29:52 So I just had an idea about creating a python package with different esoteric interpreters in it, allowing you to do stuff like "python esoteric.py brainfuck hello.bf" 20:29:54 thoughts? 20:30:09 Harpyon_: Hellooooo Esco 20:30:16 What's esco? 20:30:16 Actual comment: utterly pointless 20:30:21 Here, I can implement esoteric.py easily: 20:30:25 just execute the rest of the command line 20:30:26 It's boring. 20:30:28 That's what I was wondering actually, does such a thing exist already? 20:30:30 There is no point having it in one file. 20:30:31 Nothing bad about it, just.. boring 20:30:33 No point at all. 20:30:35 Harpyon_, yes but it sucks 20:30:43 It is exactly equivalent to having "brainfuck" be a separate executable. 20:30:43 I didn't mean all in one file 20:30:49 Even PSOX is more interesting 20:30:49 >.> 20:30:51 Harpyon_: Then why have it all run with esoteric.py? 20:30:57 Why not just run the interpreters directly?!?! 20:31:03 no but 20:31:05 Symlink interpreters into ~/bin; problem solved. 20:31:06 >.> 20:31:14 You can use any executable language. 20:31:28 Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic. 20:31:31 I think Harpyon_ wants a single package deal 20:31:33 Phantom_Hoover: Continue. 20:31:50 This one package contains a variety of esolang interpreters 20:31:52 alise, are you sure our universe isn't discrete? 20:31:53 Sort of thing 20:31:59 Yeah kinda Sgeo 20:32:09 Vorpal: very unsure! 20:32:11 alise, on penis size or on discreteness? 20:32:14 i'm more sure that it is discrete 20:32:16 Phantom_Hoover: Combine both. 20:32:22 alise, ah 20:32:26 "Ha ha, your penis is only 10^23 cells long." 20:32:37 But they can't see cells! 20:32:37 -_ 20:32:40 -_- 20:32:48 Maybe they'll have a way to measure cells though 20:32:48 Sgeo: IT WAS A JOKE 20:32:49 how can they "see" at all 20:32:50 Sgeo, they can estimate their dimensions. 20:32:52 I mean 20:32:54 Vorpal: how can we "see" at all 20:33:00 shit hits our eyes 20:33:01 alise, he has a point. 20:33:03 reports back to brain 20:33:09 in a CA, it's more likely that they send out shit 20:33:11 the shit comes back 20:33:11 Almost all collisions in Life are destructive. 20:33:12 hits their eyes 20:33:14 reports back to brain 20:33:15 alise, well there are photons and sensors for them. You would need some sort of "glider gun sun" or something 20:33:16 Phantom_Hoover: naturally 20:33:19 Phantom_Hoover: on *microscopic* scales 20:33:23 that spread gliders everywhere 20:33:30 Vorpal: nobody said it has to be like in this universe 20:33:36 Phantom_Hoover: we're basically looking at atoms, remember 20:33:38 alise, of course not 20:33:42 on the large scale 20:33:43 alise, there is no need for vision even 20:33:44 Oops, my trying to see created a destructive construction. We all die now. 20:33:46 alise, so we have ageing! 20:33:47 really, really large, macro scale 20:33:54 REALLY REALLY REALLY large, macro scale 20:33:58 you could easily have a resilient spaceship 20:34:03 that can return home after hitting shit 20:34:06 or, like Vorpal said 20:34:10 There will be slow degeneration over time regardless. 20:34:12 "glider gun sun" or something of that sort 20:34:16 `addquote Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic. 20:34:21 Phantom_Hoover, like ageing? 20:34:25 Vorpal, yes. 20:34:27 Phantom_Hoover: again remember 20:34:30 hm 20:34:31 we're looking at particles in a vacuum 20:34:35 Yes. 20:34:38 nothing says we have to have vacuum where life is :P 20:34:41 What patterns might be accidentally made that expand endlessly? 20:34:44 they may live entirely in an agar! 20:34:45 And destructively? 20:34:47 a very complex, subtle agar 20:34:51 but an agar nonetheless 20:34:53 alise, agar being? I forgot 20:35:06 Vorpal: basically any material that certain stuff can move around in 20:35:08 Vorpal, stable tiling of the plane. 20:35:09 usually, at lightspeed 20:35:15 Phantom_Hoover, ah 20:35:21 alise, that's... not the standard definition. 20:35:25 Phantom_Hoover: well true 20:35:26 They can't really evolve to live in an agar, can they? 20:35:29 but it's usually what an agar gets you 20:35:36 Sgeo: the agar can be there before they are 20:35:38 think big bang :P 20:35:42 If they live in an agar, then it's because we did it 20:35:42 could someone with the esoknowledge go and correct http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish's blatant misinformation about Befunge? 20:35:43 Even the standard, boring agar doesn't have c transmission in all directions. 20:35:49 have a huge, completely random pattern 20:35:52 HUGE, i mean 20:35:52 * 20:35:58 more than any of our computers' memories, combined 20:36:03 set it running 20:36:05 hope for the best 20:36:08 try again if it doesn't work 20:36:12 alise, what about the sparse universe model? 20:36:13 of course we'd want to cheat, but 20:36:18 it's one thing saying your lang is different from Befunge, and another saying it's different /because it's threaded/ 20:36:18 Phantom_Hoover: that could work. 20:36:27 ais523: ha! 20:36:29 Harpyon_: 20:36:35 228| Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic. 20:36:42 ais523: Harpyon_ just reinvented esco a few seconds ago 20:36:45 so he's active 20:36:49 he/she 20:37:01 Harpyon_, befunge98 have threads 20:37:03 ah, missed that Harpyon_ was in the channel 20:37:04 Am I considered to have reinvented PESOIX? 20:37:06 *has 20:37:12 Sgeo: or EsoOS? 20:37:21 The sparse universe model is nicely near to our universe, actually. 20:37:24 probably not, the idea's too obvious to count as being reinvented 20:37:32 What's up. 20:37:40 Phantom_Hoover: not really. our universe is 3d :P 20:37:41 What, it does? 20:37:41 Harpyon_: you lied! 20:37:44 D: 20:37:52 Harpyon_, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish claims to be made by you. However befunge98 have threads. 20:37:54 I never saw anything about that 20:37:56 *HAS 20:37:58 *HAS DAMMIT 20:38:03 YOU'VE HAD LIKE 48545 YEARS TO LEARN HAD/HAS 20:38:05 *HAVE/HAS 20:38:07 alise, in the sense that almost everything is photon-permeable empty space 20:38:13 Phantom_Hoover: bah 20:38:15 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:38:15 Phantom_Hoover: i want a fun universe 20:38:24 I has a way to give alise an aneurseum 20:38:31 And I can never spell that word 20:38:37 It is fun, on large scales! 20:38:46 Harpyon_, and with the loadable extension (fingerprint) ATHR it can even get async-multiple-core style threads 20:38:47 I don't see anything about threads in the instructions of befunge 20:38:48 Aneurysm. 20:38:54 I has a way to give alise an aneurseum ;; just seems like cheezburgr 20:38:55 Harpyon_: are you looking at Befunge-98? 20:39:03 Harpyon_: http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html 20:39:05 have fun 20:39:08 I could just sing... 20:39:08 IIRC, the command is "t" 20:39:13 but I'm not a Funge expert 20:39:16 * Harpyon_ hides 20:39:17 Harpyon_, befunge93 is different from befunge98. Befunge98 is rather extended 20:39:19 116tSplit/98/c Split IP 20:39:38 Harpyon_, from my singing? Good idea 20:39:40 Very good idea 20:40:24 alise, see /msg 20:40:24 Harpyon_, harping on? 20:40:36 oh god I think sgeo got stuck in a loop discussing his singing, instead of discussing active worlds 20:40:36 -_- 20:40:51 very well.... 20:41:03 it's just amusing 20:41:11 alise, that was a nasty thing to do though :P 20:41:12 -!- iGO has joined. 20:41:18 okay i promise never to do it again 20:41:19 * Sgeo is amused 20:41:20 don't hurt me with sticks 20:41:21 -!- iGO has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:41:32 * Phantom_Hoover hurts alise with sticks ------ 20:41:38 alise, I don't plan to... 20:41:45 alise, I wouldn't call this thing a stick really 20:41:50 The Order of the Stick? 20:41:51 I mean, it might have the same general shape 20:41:57 Vorpal is referring to his penis 20:42:05 * Freud :Nickname is already in use. 20:42:14 alise, but calling an ICBM a stick is really stretching it 20:42:30 * Sgeo ducks and covers 20:42:53 Sgeo, you could perhaps sing in activeworlds? 20:43:04 AW does have a voice... thingy 20:43:24 ouch, I didn't plan for that answer 20:43:30 This'll kill it for good. 20:44:09 -!- nooga has joined. 20:44:13 thankfully, there is nobody else in AW to hear Sgeo 20:44:13 Phantom_Hoover, kill which? 20:44:18 Phantom_Hoover, the singing or AW? 20:44:23 both :P 20:44:35 ah 20:45:11 Phantom_Hoover probably means just AW 20:45:32 * oerjan swats alise (hey it's not a _stick_) -----### 20:46:11 oerjan, you could have used the saucepan, that would have made it completely unambiguous (as far as I can tell at least) 20:47:29 oh god I think sgeo got stuck in a loop discussing his singing, instead of discussing active worlds <-- wait is this good or bad? 20:47:34 Phantom_Hoover: hmm 20:47:41 Phantom_Hoover: Life movies would be 1d 20:47:47 since our movies are 2d :) 20:47:55 (plus i can't think how they could see in 2d) 20:48:00 oerjan, I have no idea 20:48:06 1D Life porn 20:48:06 I think they could see in 2d 20:48:14 buffering and pixellated 20:48:17 I don't know how, though 20:48:25 (plus i can't think how they could see in 2d) <--- hm 20:48:33 And any 1d displays would need to have some thickness, I think 20:48:39 alise, does that mean that we are 4D but can only see in 3D? 20:48:48 probably not 20:48:55 though it would be awesome if it did 20:48:58 Although, it probably wouldn't display individual cells 20:49:16 Vorpal: we see in 2d 20:49:23 with rudimentary depth perception 20:49:37 (some people lack depth perception and they see in true 2d. these people hate stairs) 20:49:40 Suppose their eye had a sort of quantum unit that they can't see lower down then 20:49:40 (no, really, they do) 20:49:51 alise, cover one eye and look at things. 20:49:55 alise, you mean one-eyed person? 20:49:59 um 20:50:02 So even without my glasses, I have feeble depth perception, not none 20:50:03 Vorpal: no, some people actually lack depth perception entirely 20:50:06 that is not true, due to focus 20:50:09 alise, well okay 20:50:14 it's an actual thing 20:50:17 you're born with it oc 20:50:18 *ofc 20:50:23 With a bit of care, you can make your hand into a cardboard cutout! 20:50:36 try running quickly with one eye closed 20:50:37 alise, so they have like shutter = f11? Otherwise they would get blur out of focus like everyone else 20:50:38 a scary experience 20:50:41 everything looms 20:50:49 Vorpal: i'm not sure exactly 20:50:53 For me, that's the default 20:51:01 i just know they they literally have no depth perceptions, and stairs are their worst enemy 20:51:02 Sgeo, what? 20:51:05 Glasses give me an incredible sensation of actually living in a 3d world 20:51:10 err 20:51:12 Vorpal, I have one good eye and one terrible eye 20:51:13 only pinhole cameras are close to hiperfocal 20:51:18 Sgeo, okay 20:51:21 So when I wear glasses, I get use of both eyes 20:51:32 I get everything more than, say, 30 cm a bit blurred without glasses 20:51:38 Actually, hmm, my bad eye can still see this screen ok 20:51:40 alise, well, I had that idea about Lifeforms using spaceships to advertise their fitness. 20:51:43 but it doesn't really change the 3D perception 20:51:54 But a room away, I can't read text 20:52:04 Phantom_Hoover: indeed 20:52:07 Well, it .. looks different, somehow 20:52:08 Since advanced synthesis facilities have huge survival value. 20:52:16 :D 20:52:27 "Hi, I'm the Yoyodone Synthesis and Manufacturing Corporation -- but you can call me Yoyo." 20:52:36 *Corporation's Main Facility 20:52:38 I can synthesise a caterpillar! 20:52:45 "Wanna see my SECONDARY facility? ;)" 20:52:46 Mate with me! 20:52:56 I can synthesize quantum bombs by accident! 20:53:17 LET US COLLIDE OUR DANGLY REPRODUCTION PARTICLES 20:53:24 Phantom_Hoover, how would the "logic" for decisions be done? 20:53:28 Vorpal: wat? 20:53:40 We don't know 20:53:45 the "thinking" so to speak 20:53:47 how 20:53:49 not all organisms think. 20:53:51 i can kill a single bacteria in range of 100km 20:53:54 It would have evolved 20:53:55 alise, well okay 20:54:03 ask me to do it 20:54:06 as for basic decision-making, uhh, you can do "conditionals" in life 20:54:06 We're hoping for thinkers ;) 20:54:17 Hmm 20:54:20 What my mind read into that ;): So we can mate with them ;) 20:54:22 nooga, how precise is it? 20:54:48 Suppose that life exists easily on a small scale, but thought needs a large-scale.. oh wait, that's the case in this universe 20:54:51 nooga, anyway none of us would be close enough to be able to verify it :P 20:55:13 alise, you're turning into me again 20:55:17 life doesn't exist on THAT small a scale 20:55:24 nothing like what we look at in Golly :P 20:55:41 indeed 20:55:55 even a bacteria in GOL (if possible) would be enormous 20:56:01 We need a name for a unit of life in GOL-Universe 20:56:31 Hmm, assuming that such a concept necessarily makes sense 20:56:45 alise, is lagoon's (sp?) ant TC btw? 20:56:51 Sgeo: "organism" 20:56:54 Sgeo, I think something cellular would arise. 20:56:57 Vorpal: langton's, and no way. 20:57:02 it repeats. always 20:57:12 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/LangtonsAnt.png 20:57:13 the corridors 20:57:14 alise, not proved iirc? 20:57:15 as in 20:57:20 "The universality of Langton's ant was proven in 2000." 20:57:20 wtf 20:57:23 okay i'm wrong 20:57:24 I thought multiple ants interacted in a universal way. 20:57:27 worldview destroyed 20:57:27 wow 20:57:28 They can do organism-level science, presumably? 20:57:38 That'll be what they are talking about. 20:57:41 "In 2000, Gajardo et al. showed a construction that calculates any boolean circuit using the trajectory of a single instance of Langton's ant.[2] Thus, it would be possible to simulate a Turing machine using the ant's trajectory for computation. This means that the ant is capable of universal computation." 20:57:44 AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 20:57:45 I'm scared now 20:57:48 very scared 20:58:07 alise, indeed, I thought it always settled into that repeating pattern 20:58:35 alise, also: 20:58:37 "All finite initial configurations tested eventually converge to the same repetitive pattern suggesting that the "highway" is an attractor of Langton's ant, but no one has been able to prove that this is true for all such initial configurations. It is only known that the ant's trajectory is always unbounded regardless of the initial configuration" 20:59:37 * alise cries a lot 20:59:55 alise, what? 21:00:02 alise, it's not that bad. 21:00:25 EVERYTHING 21:00:33 Vorpal, I realized something before alise did 21:00:36 Earlier 21:00:47 So that hasn't been helping] 21:01:48 Evidently, he had a bet on that LA wasn't TC. 21:02:03 Sgeo, what thing? 21:02:31 That globally reversible CA implied that no non-stilllife became a stilllife 21:02:47 alise, btw if life ever evolves in GOL, what are the chances of us realising it is life 21:02:53 life? high 21:02:55 intelligent life? low 21:03:10 alise, how do you mean 21:03:17 we will probably recognise that intelligent life is certainly something complex, but unless we've been following the evolution, we will probably see it more as a huge machine 21:03:27 and even if we have been watching the evolution, it would be hard for us to recognise what is intelligent and what is not 21:03:35 also, it takes way too long to ever observe this stuff on a meaningful scale 21:03:45 alise, and how would we be able to tell if something was life at all? 21:03:55 same way we do in this universe 21:03:59 Sgeo, actually, it can happen with some caveats. 21:03:59 basic life isn't *that* gigantic 21:04:03 Maybe if we see it doing experiments that are sensitive to low-level things, we'd know that they discovered low-level physics? 21:04:07 especially since GoL cells are quite useful 21:04:10 as opposed to stupid quarks 21:04:12 alise, well here we tend to look for carbon 21:04:20 carbon is irrelevant 21:04:24 indee 21:04:26 indeed* 21:04:31 non-carbon based lifeforms are possible even in this universe 21:04:34 alise, in what sense? 21:04:35 alise, yes 21:04:47 large scale order would be a pretty obvious clue 21:05:00 Phantom_Hoover: that is, building life out of GoL cells is a lot easier than building life out of quarks 21:05:01 Hmm, would there end up being "elements" in their universe possibly? 21:05:04 since GoL cells actually make sense ;) 21:05:04 alise, what exactly is life? Isn't it just a complex machine? 21:05:04 They're *possible*, just highly improbable. 21:05:12 Vorpal: or a simple machine. 21:05:17 That would imply a .. weird level of simulation I think 21:05:18 it has to interact with its environment, probably 21:05:20 And is unlikely 21:05:22 so the turing machine isn't life 21:05:26 since it just sits there and computes 21:05:30 hm 21:05:32 a turing machine that moved around and did stuff would be life 21:05:38 I still like the idea of attoscale engineering for the Lifeforms. 21:05:53 ni 21:05:54 alise, does that mean stuff like a lego bot that moves around is alive? 21:06:01 Vorpal: sure. 21:06:04 i'm the knight who say ni 21:06:08 it's not organic life, but it's as much alive as an amoeba is 21:06:08 IF 21:06:11 Vorpal: IF, it reproduces. 21:06:15 asexually or sexually. 21:06:15 alise, ah good point 21:06:26 alise, so what about crossing a hourse and a donkey... 21:06:29 an organism is a machine that moves around, does stuff, and reproduces 21:06:31 is that dead then? 21:06:34 It would need lots of shielding and carefully controlled inputs. 21:06:36 Vorpal: shut up :) 21:06:45 an organism is a machine that moves around, does stuff, and that either reproduces or is the descendent of something that does 21:06:52 alise, though I guess you could argue that it's cells are still alive 21:06:57 because they can divide 21:07:09 Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean? 21:07:24 Awesome. Minitube doesn't work 21:07:26 alise, attocicuitry. 21:07:39 Define "atto"? 21:07:50 alise, okay, so what building a lego bot that could, given a carefully sorted set of lego elements, build a copy of itself? 21:07:54 Sgeo, really effing small. 21:08:07 cicuitry! 21:08:09 p30 glider technology small. 21:08:18 I still think we need a proper name for cell/generation level stuff 21:08:24 Vorpal: in a universe of lego bricks, sure :P 21:08:32 Vorpal: well 21:08:33 Sgeo, I would go for "atto". 21:08:36 it'd have to sort from raw materials 21:08:43 I think i'd mandate that it has to sort the bricks itself 21:08:46 but even if it doesn't 21:08:47 it's very close 21:08:56 alise, well, we can't produce some stuff from raw materials. Mostly some amino acids 21:09:01 Phantom_Hoover: how big are p30s again? 21:09:06 alise, we need other animals or plants to do that 21:09:08 then we eat them 21:09:13 thus we are not alive? 21:09:17 alise, QB shuttles and pentadecathlons. 21:09:20 I still want to _talk_ to them 21:09:33 Phantom_Hoover: link me to a p30, i've lost my sense of scale 21:09:36 Sgeo: *you can't* 21:09:44 alise, Gosper gun? 21:09:44 Any ships containing these beings would probably be large 21:09:46 alise, as for sorting the bricks I guess an NXT have the power to do image processing 21:09:51 But does large imply slow? 21:09:52 Phantom_Hoover: ah. noted 21:09:55 Sgeo: no. 21:10:09 well 21:10:10 maybe 21:10:13 big in both dimensions, sure 21:10:16 big in one dimension, probably not 21:10:20 alise, but colour sensor + brick sorting has been done 21:10:23 Would they have any incentive to go into space? 21:10:30 mrmbwab 21:10:34 Hmm, maybe if the universe started with a random soup 21:10:50 There would be some evidence of amazing technology out there 21:11:02 Sgeo, did you follow my earlier stuff on resource competition? 21:11:12 Phantom_Hoover, um, competing for space 21:11:15 Space is isotropic, and it's their only resource. 21:11:24 Phantom_Hoover: not really 21:11:25 food 21:11:30 alise, food? 21:11:35 alise, not in Life. 21:11:36 how does it need that 21:11:49 alise was hoping we'd design the basic lifeforms to need food 21:11:58 not necessarily 21:12:07 i mean i know there's perpetual motion machines, but 21:12:08 :P 21:12:09 we can't design life, but it could evolve to have food 21:12:16 for instance 21:12:22 if you don't have an infinite energy generator in you 21:12:25 you have one less weak point 21:12:29 and you'll probably be a lot smallre 21:12:31 smaller 21:12:31 alise, getting an eternal glider stream is *trivial*. 21:12:33 if you rely on food 21:12:44 Even with ultra-sparse streams. 21:13:14 So, to solve their overcrowding problem once they're intelligent, they build ships? 21:13:20 Instead of fighting, like they want to? 21:13:31 err 21:13:34 It's a matter of a reflector and a stream splitter. 21:13:38 Sgeo, humans still fight 21:13:56 They may not ever decide it's wrong to kill 21:14:23 humanity still hasn't 21:14:41 s/alise/DebbieDowner/ 21:14:50 DebbieActuallyRealer 21:15:06 what? 21:15:14 who is debbie? 21:16:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Downer 21:16:49 The character's name is a slang phrase which refers to someone who frequently adds bad news and negative feelings to a gathering, thus bringing down the mood of everyone around them. Dratch's character would usually appear at social gatherings and interrupt the conversation to voice negative opinions and pronouncements. She was especially concerned about the rate of Feline AIDS, a subject that she would bring up on more than one occasion. 21:16:52 obviously it predates that, but 21:16:57 couldn't get a better link at a pinch for the slang 21:17:29 hm 21:17:58 I didn't realize it was a slang term >.> 21:18:22 Sgeo, incidentally, I don't think murder will be very easy once small-scale self-sufficiency evolves. 21:18:34 Attobombs! 21:18:49 I seem to be obsessed 21:19:03 Consider that all easy methods of killing people involve disrupting their internal supply apparatus. 21:19:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:19:42 If each cell has a mitochondrion producing an unlimited glider stream, there *is* no internal supply chain. 21:19:46 -!- augur has joined. 21:19:55 Phantom_Hoover: Simple: Obliterate the cells. 21:20:01 Kill the mitochondrion 21:20:03 Fire out a ton of fucking gliders. 21:20:11 alise, sparse sparse sparse 21:20:15 And since this is at a pretty large scale: A TON OF FUCKING GLIDERS. 21:20:26 Phantom_Hoover: Or, if you don't mind suicide: 21:20:31 Simply walk right in to them. 21:20:38 In which case your firing mechanism is so dense it's an easy target. 21:20:39 There's no force stopping that, unlike in real life. 21:20:49 You can pass right through them -- and destroy both your internal systems. 21:20:58 Yes, another thing: how does movement work? 21:21:06 Shiply. 21:21:09 Gemini-esque replication? 21:21:19 Who knows? 21:21:33 Omg, that would be cool, having two identical intelligent lifeforms existing at one point, then one killing the other. 21:21:48 And the other submitting to it. 21:22:32 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 21:22:40 Everything froze 21:24:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:24:25 So there'd be a quantum of movement? 21:24:35 elaborate :P 21:25:26 Can't easily duplicate yourself from current position to current position +0.5 21:25:56 That comes with discreteness. 21:26:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:26:24 it is possible they'd be gradual spaceships 21:26:33 But it's discreteness at a different scale 21:26:34 basically stretching a bit to the right, yet still staying stable 21:26:36 As far as movement goes, I'd assume either fixed lifeforms or UC replicators. 21:26:38 then shrinking and lobbing off your end 21:26:48 i.e. a UC replicator. 21:26:56 like single-celled organisms do 21:27:04 Phantom_Hoover: uc replicator? i doubt that 21:27:19 they'd surely have an optimised way of just moving into a new version of themselves 21:27:21 i.e. construct copy, then destroy original. 21:27:24 well right 21:27:27 Maybe they're naturally stationary, but eventually build ships that allow movement 21:27:31 Not UC based, of course. 21:27:36 not sure lifeforms would be TC, but anyway 21:27:38 But the same principle. 21:27:43 if you ask me, the stretch-and-shrink one is the coolest 21:27:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:27:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 21:27:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:27:54 imagine copy/pasting some additional columns of a lifeform and having it still work stably! 21:28:02 and then just having the end blow itself up 21:28:06 *that* would be *amazingly cool* 21:28:18 What would be cool is communication *cries* 21:28:21 alise, reminds me of some experiments I read about. 21:28:47 I assume you mean that the organism is <>, and we make it <=>. 21:28:50 Sgeo: how do you know they'll even care about whether god exists or not? 21:28:56 Phantom_Hoover: sort of, i was thinking something even cooler 21:29:12 Why should they have to care? 21:29:30 They might want answers to questions of science 21:29:39 it's <,'^":> and we make it, say, <,'^"::> then .<'^"::> (where . is blank space), then it morphs back into .<,'^":> 21:29:41 Phantom_Hoover: ^ 21:29:42 We can answer attoscientific questions 21:29:52 of course, if all the ,'^":s are the same, you don't even have to morph 21:29:56 Sgeo: they have no reason to believe us. 21:30:10 Maybe we could provide experiments 21:30:23 Or, in fact, demonstrate something that they can't build themselves 21:31:00 alise, that's very reminiscent of some embryology experiments. 21:31:04 We'd have to learn their science before doing anything too crazy 21:31:07 For the hhgttg books, we had a bot-driven competition game where it spewed out 5 lines of text from one of the books, and the user who said fastestly which book it was from got a point. 21:31:20 Phantom_Hoover: see, i'm a genius 21:31:32 Sgeo: this is bullshit 21:31:35 Sgeo: how do they know we're not lying? 21:31:41 why would they trust us? 21:31:52 how do they know they're not just reading shit into our messages, that it's actually natural phenomena? 21:31:52 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:32:09 alise, well, let's suppose we managed to get across the way of simulating the GoL to them after they'd built the LGC. 21:32:10 Ok, that last point is very, very significant I guess 21:32:24 Maybe we could act like a supersmart one of them 21:32:28 Send off the same signals 21:32:30 then we'd be Einstein. 21:32:34 not God 21:32:37 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:32:39 and they might still hate us. 21:32:41 Except able to ... bleh 21:32:42 they might still question us. 21:32:46 they might still "kill" us. 21:32:48 like JESUS 21:32:50 JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SCIENCE 21:32:59 science, pronounced "sins" 21:33:06 the great thing is i can see how science would be pronounced like that 21:33:10 They could see that the model is working, and at least get a huge leap in technological progress. 21:33:16 sci = si, en = n, ce = s 21:33:32 Phantom_Hoover: they can figure out that stuff themselves 21:33:37 also, way to kill the sense of achievement and progress 21:33:38 Maybe they can't 21:33:42 alise, indeed. 21:33:42 Maybe they can't 21:33:45 "what's the point of research? they can just tell us." 21:33:53 Hmm, that's true 21:33:53 Sgeo: if they can't figure it out 21:33:55 they can't test it 21:33:57 well 21:33:58 almost certainly 21:34:05 (if they can't figure it out but can test it then they just can't understand it) 21:34:08 (so it's pointless telling them anyway) 21:34:10 Although we might run a cosy attoscale manufacturing industry. 21:34:18 but yeah, killing their scientific drive is a very bad idea 21:34:19 We might not be able to prove Riemann's hypothesis, but if someone gave us a proof, we could check it 21:34:25 haven't you read TMoPI? :P 21:34:25 There are various things only we could synthesise. 21:34:36 Phantom_Hoover: "oh, yeah, we really want a garden of eden pattern please" 21:34:36 hey 21:34:40 that's a proof that not everything is synthesisable 21:34:43 gardens of eden aren't 21:34:58 Yes, but the synthesis question doesn't apply to everything 21:35:15 It applies to stable circuitry. 21:36:06 We'd be unable to answer many questions of things higher than attoscience 21:36:10 the lightspeed telegraph would totally fuck them up 21:36:13 "WHY IS THIS POSSIBLY WHYYYY" 21:36:16 *POSSIBLE 21:36:30 alise, great evidence for our claims 21:36:36 Sgeo, boring! 21:36:50 Just have a puppet magic man who sells attocircuits. 21:37:17 What of attobombs? 21:37:22 * Sgeo wants to make an attobomb 21:37:31 Attotech is *extremely* unstable. 21:37:36 Maybe they're naturally stationary, but eventually build ships that allow movement <-- since Life has no relativity, a pattern cannot just be put inside a moving ship to move it. i think they'd at most be using ships as shields against the surroundings while they do the movement themselves. either that or they would use replication in a star trek transportery way 21:37:43 Sgeo: not really 21:37:49 lightspeed communication is possible in this universe :P 21:37:57 BRB 21:38:08 Equivalent to a single photon destroying things. 21:38:26 spacefillers would be fun though 21:38:31 natural disasters 21:38:32 OTOH, we can manufacture ash shielding for them 21:38:38 very fast, too, from their perspective 21:38:48 And that is completely unsynthesisable. 21:39:05 Spacefillers are hopelessly fragile. 21:39:08 Indeed. 21:39:11 But we can manufacture them. 21:39:12 As are dense agars in general. 21:39:13 MWAHAHAHAHA 21:39:21 FEEL OUR WRATH 21:39:30 Well, it'd have some interesting effects. 21:39:38 If they haven't discovered the telegraph yet... 21:39:39 More like a firework than a bomb, though. 21:39:44 the best thing is 21:39:47 it'd just look like a black hole to them 21:39:55 no spaceship of any kind could come back 21:39:57 except at the edges, i guess 21:40:08 Are those things synthesizable? 21:40:09 It would grow for a while and smash into a glider, then throw off a huge wave of gliders as the agar burns. 21:40:11 where looking at it would just make you see black too 21:40:14 except it'd stop expanding 21:40:15 that's right 21:40:19 LOOKING AT THE CORNER would stop it expanding 21:40:23 as your vision-ship destroys the mechanism 21:40:25 and doesn't come back 21:40:32 Looking at the sides would do the same. 21:40:37 ha true 21:40:38 that's awesome 21:40:39 If it hit someone, could it kill them? 21:40:45 No. 21:40:53 Sgeo: only if they're very unresilient. 21:41:06 We don't know how resiliant life is 21:41:07 It would be destroyed before it got large enough to give off a very large pulse. 21:41:13 Sgeo, yes, we do. 21:41:16 -!- Harpyon_ has quit (Quit: Harpyon_). 21:41:21 They may grow up in a universe where there are no stray gliders 21:41:39 Phantom_Hoover: they could synthesise a spacefiller by accident 21:41:41 that is 21:41:41 Which is also one which can't support life. 21:41:43 you'd think unresilient life would soon be evolved away 21:41:43 omg 21:41:48 I said stray 21:41:48 they could ACTUALLY HAVE an LHC apocalypse 21:41:54 they collide a bunch of shit 21:41:58 it goes chaotic 21:42:04 alise, FFS SPACEFILLERS AREN'T A THREAT. 21:42:12 Phantom_Hoover: i know that 21:42:14 i meant a non-spacefiller threat 21:42:25 their lhc could literally produce a killing machine 21:42:28 this is *awesome* 21:42:49 Evil madman with attomanufacturing builds seedship that, at some distance, synthesizes spacefiller 21:42:51 Well, I assume they wouldn't want to fire massive glider waves. 21:43:01 Phantom_Hoover: all in the name of science 21:43:05 why call it attotech? 21:43:07 It's nanotech. 21:43:08 They'd want to collide single gliders and probe what comes off. 21:43:11 It's literally what we call nanotech. 21:43:14 alise, no. Nano is too small. 21:43:20 No it isn't. 21:43:26 nano is too big 21:43:27 Our nanotech is bigger than what they'd consider attotech. 21:43:28 *large 21:43:31 Yes. 21:43:35 you're both using it to mean different things 21:43:38 you stupid people 21:43:41 This is proton-scale. 21:43:42 Sgeo is using it to mean what we look at 21:43:47 Phantom_Hoover is using it to mean the size of the people 21:43:52 not protons 21:43:53 life has no protons 21:43:53 He is? 21:43:56 GoL cells are more like atoms 21:43:56 imo 21:44:09 Not for the Lifeforms 21:44:18 yes for the lifeforms 21:44:20 Atoms would be constellations of still-lifes. 21:44:23 they just won't develop subatomic physics 21:44:25 because it wouldn't exist 21:44:40 GoL cells interact in more complex ways than protons, imo 21:44:46 well ignoring how fucked up protons are in our world 21:45:09 If we explained b3s23, they might realize how SIMPLE it is 21:45:15 Sgeo, no 21:45:15 That might be enough to get them to believe us 21:45:23 hmm 21:45:29 Not unless they built a simulator of themselves. 21:46:00 It'd be their model for particle physics, but not for macroscopic interactions. 21:46:32 yeah 21:46:35 biologists don't use quarks as a model 21:46:36 :P 21:46:40 For the same reason we use Newtonian mechanics for most things. 21:48:31 Suppose we discover that they do accidentally create an LHC-Apocolypse 21:48:34 Do we intervene? 21:50:00 it's not likely we could 21:50:05 There won't *be* an LHC-apocalypse. 21:50:06 we'd be running it so fast that it'd be over in seconds 21:50:16 since apocalyptic material probably runs at generation-scale 21:50:23 anyway, i don't think so 21:50:33 i don't think being the father figure helps 21:50:39 We could have some software that detects potential patterns 21:50:46 Pauses it when discovered 21:50:49 they would be *angry* 21:50:53 if we have that kind of power, why not give them everything? 21:51:01 and if we did give them everything, they would lose all purpose in life 21:51:07 Because we're not smart enough to give them everything 21:51:09 I think that if there was a destructive pattern, we'd have noticed it by now. 21:51:14 besides 21:51:17 they won't die naturally 21:51:22 so it's already close to paradise 21:51:56 Especially, since I have pointed out innumerable times, the LSC collides single spaceships. 21:51:56 You don't know what drives they have.. probably reproduction, largely 21:52:20 Phantom_Hoover: but the Insane Large Spaceship Collider doesn't 21:52:26 Sgeo: erm, i mean rather higher level drives 21:52:34 also, evolution wouldn't go normally 21:52:37 since they *never die without a threat* 21:52:47 so they'd be evolving against danger, but... 21:52:52 I don't think they'd have nearly as big a sex drive as us 21:53:00 alise, neither do bacteria. 21:53:01 but I'm talking about the drive to achieve 21:53:02 science 21:53:02 etc. 21:53:25 i hate to keep mentioning it but *giving people everything does not make them happy* 21:53:33 it makes them *extremely bored* 21:53:51 Give me everything I need to be able to stay on the computer 24/7 21:54:08 alise, so the Singularity...? 21:54:19 Phantom_Hoover: ...needs to be better than that. 21:54:30 If it's more intelligent than us, it will be able to grasp why we think this. 21:54:36 Phantom_Hoover: Relevant: The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect. 21:54:58 Yes, yes, it has torture-rape in the first chapter; but it's also a very interesting portrait of a post-Singularity scenario gone wrong. 21:55:07 Gone right, imo 21:55:18 Sgeo: that just means you are *severely* fucked up. 21:55:30 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 21:56:40 Phantom_Hoover: you should read it. 21:56:44 http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/ 21:56:45 http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html 21:58:20 Sgeo, please tell me that wasn't in response to the torture-rape. 21:58:34 Phantom_Hoover: it almost certainly wasn't. 21:58:47 (note: it's not actually rape. More a super-kink.) 21:58:52 * Phantom_Hoover breathes a sigh of relief. 21:59:06 Phantom_Hoover: but it definitely isn't a utopia; anyway, read it, there's no point in me spoiling it all with qualifiers. 21:59:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:59:13 it's not a terribly long book 21:59:35 I fail to see how it isn't a utopia 21:59:47 Sgeo: again, this only points at you having serious, serious issues. 22:00:01 Phantom_Hoover: also, FWIW, the tone changes significantly in chapter 2. 22:00:06 (this doesn't mean that chapter 1 isn't a necessary part of the plot) 22:00:38 The Culture isn't post-Singularity in the strictest sense, is it? 22:00:53 i haven't read it, but i don't think so 22:01:05 i.e. the Minds are extremely advanced, but still comprehensible. 22:01:08 it is probably a lot more healthy than post-TMoPI-Change. 22:01:11 As Excession showed. 22:01:13 anyway, read the damn novel. 22:01:17 and thanks for the spoiler :P 22:01:19 Doing so. 22:01:26 alise, not really a spoiler. 22:03:01 * Sgeo wonders what a non-atto bomb would be like 22:03:11 Besides boring 22:03:17 Sgeo: destructive. 22:03:20 it makes them *extremely bored* <-- except when "everything" includes various flash games :P 22:03:40 true, dot action 2 forever plus an irc server would be a pretty good afterlife 22:03:51 just your vision with those two, you can only show one or the other or show both split-screened 22:03:56 and all you can feel is a keyboard 22:03:58 i'd sign up for that 22:04:09 Yes, yes, it has torture-rape in the first chapter; but it's also a very interesting portrait of a post-Singularity scenario gone wrong. <-- what book/film/whatever? 22:04:20 http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/ 22:04:21 http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html 22:04:23 ah 22:04:27 you can buy a dead tree version, but *eh* 22:04:28 I shall avoid reading it then 22:04:28 How many guys wants to win a big spider by playing solitaire card? 22:04:40 Vorpal: it's not unintellectual or anything. 22:04:48 or even squicky 22:07:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:10:32 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:10:42 I was pondering if they'd ever detect exotic spaceships from space 22:10:48 (in the random soup universe) 22:11:05 But such things would come about so rarely, and would tend to be destroyed on their way... 22:11:18 random soup universe would be unlikely to get life any time soon :P 22:12:06 Could they invent writing? What would it look like 22:12:33 Sgeo, remember what I said a while ago about advertisement to mates? 22:12:44 Vaguely 22:13:24 Could they invent writing? What would it look like 22:13:29 stuff that does stuff to vision gliders. 22:13:39 It's not impossible that making exotic ships would be used to advertise that a Lifeform had very good synthesis organs. 22:13:42 or if we have a sun model, stuff that does stuff to the light-ships 22:13:51 lawl, synthesis organs 22:13:56 "Wanna synthesise, baby?" 22:14:01 * Sgeo was thinking more about natural exotic spaceships 22:14:11 To help them work out more of the laws of physics 22:14:17 alise, more like hands in general. 22:14:25 why am I reading TMoPI again... 22:14:39 * Sgeo kills alise 22:14:41 Sgeo, well, they might get the occasional exotic from space. 22:15:29 But how rarely would exotics even form in space? And survive to hit the area where life is 22:15:33 * Phantom_Hoover wonders where that soup catalogue was. 22:15:50 unless we start from a big bang scenario, 22:15:58 it is unlikely that there will be anything interesting in space. 22:16:01 haha imagine being the space agency 22:16:06 "Now... we will venture into the blackness." 22:16:08 ten years later 22:16:11 "We went there. It's black." 22:16:21 It's a solution to overcrowding! 22:16:56 In a soup scenario, there may be valuable attotechnology in space 22:17:03 Discovering it would be a challenge though 22:17:04 Sgeo, no. 22:17:25 Try slinging a glider at the Turing Machine in Golly's collection. 22:17:41 Don't do it! 22:17:45 It will destroooooy it! 22:17:47 In a soup scenario, there may be valuable attotechnology in space 22:17:52 like abraham lincoln's head, too. 22:17:56 will never be found. 22:17:59 well, okay, could be found 22:18:03 but i think they'd get bored after a while 22:18:06 even as immortals 22:18:26 Sgeo, http://www.conwaylife.com/soup/ 22:18:41 Are you saying it would be destroyed quickly? 22:18:41 If we just fill infinite space with true randomness, the utopian civilisation exists somewhere, right from the start. :) 22:18:52 Sgeo: no, i'm saying getting ahold of it would take a journey 22:18:54 and a journey would take too long 22:19:03 -!- jcp has joined. 22:19:12 And they'd have no way of knowing where to journey to 22:19:17 (Unless we told them >.>) 22:19:40 Sgeo, that census doesn't actually *have* any spaceships outside of the glider and main series. 22:19:49 http://www.conwaylife.com/soup/img/obj73851.png long integral, also known as "S" 22:19:53 stupid name :P 22:19:55 (long integral that is) 22:20:18 i think Sgeo just has a really strong desire to play god and curse poor sentient beings with his warped version of paradise 22:20:49 I'm not giving them paradise. I don't know enough of their science 22:21:14 Well, averting the apocalypse would be worthwhile since we don't want to lose the whole simulation. 22:21:27 But there is no small apocalyptic pattern, so. 22:22:11 apocalpyse-detection heuristics! 22:22:40 i'm pretty sure they have nothing like an atomic bomb 22:22:42 Incidentally, did you know that Gosper guns can be chained? 22:22:45 cells are too weak and unstable 22:22:55 either it's big and slow enough for them to disarm it, or it's harmless 22:22:59 If a number of lifeforms started dying in a circular fashion... 22:23:25 in b36s23 the replicator... 22:23:58 So you can pretty easily get an arbitrarily large number of p30 columns very closely spaced. 22:23:58 Would probably be formed soon enough to prevent intelligent life from forming 22:24:19 If it hits something, it would be... very destructive. 22:24:39 The replicator, or the chained Gosper guns? 22:24:57 You won't believe the creativity of a student in a test situation. For example, one of the abbreviations was "fax," which *really* stands for "facsimile." However, various Comp 4'ers said it stood for: 22:25:03 - Fiber-optic Aided Xeroxing 22:25:08 - Frequency Automatic X-rays 22:25:12 - Fast A** Xeroxing 22:25:36 Phantom_Hoover: heh, imagine whoever discovers that 22:25:38 the remorse! 22:25:46 Chained Gospers? 22:25:49 yeah 22:25:52 I am become Death, destroyer of cells. 22:26:15 Did I mention that they can disintegrate easily? 22:26:25 "An incredibly unstable construction... but a deadly one." 22:26:35 The reactions when they hit things tend to fling gliders back up the stream. 22:26:40 Evil madman takes a ship into space. Evil madmen makes the Chained Gosper device 22:27:08 Phantom_Hoover: It's weird how resilient the organisms would be. 22:27:19 Because microscopic particles are so damn *weak*. 22:27:52 Yes. 22:28:15 I like the way that their vision and weapons both use the same mechanism. 22:28:17 We need to start a website about this stuff. 22:28:21 It's deeply interesting. 22:28:48 if we could communicate with them and tell them about general relativity and quantum mechanics 22:28:51 they'd laugh their asses off 22:28:54 "Wow, your universe is retarded." 22:29:24 We could write some of it down on LifeWiki. 22:29:37 bah, it's more interesting than a few pages 22:29:50 * Sgeo helped :D 22:29:58 A topic on the forum? 22:30:10 i was thinking a separate mini-site/wiki :P 22:31:04 -!- augur has joined. 22:31:05 But we have COLORS 22:31:09 Collaborative blog? 22:31:10 We have RAINBOWS 22:31:29 Although, they might have weird.. things 22:31:30 Sgeo, different properties of glider returns? 22:31:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:31:38 Phantom_Hoover: perhaps 22:31:43 can easily have a little wiki/blog combo 22:31:53 it's not so deeply interesting as to be regularly updated, but 22:33:01 On their own, what models would they come up with for the creation of the Universe? 22:33:15 who says they will 22:33:26 I mean, from a scientific standpoint, not from whatever ideas they evolve with 22:33:26 remember, they live forever! 22:33:34 i have a feeling religion would be a lot less prominent 22:33:46 Sgeo: probably nothing 22:33:46 i mean 22:33:49 in a sense we didn't create anything 22:33:52 In practice, they're not going to live forever unless they develop a morality involving not killing eachother 22:33:52 we started at a given state 22:33:58 almost certainly a state with predecessors 22:34:02 and we started simulating 22:34:09 there's no first point in time 22:34:14 since you can extend it back to any predecessor 22:34:22 Sgeo: there's no competition for resources, really 22:34:24 so why kill? 22:34:35 Competition for space 22:34:36 For mates 22:34:40 (relating to this "no-creation" thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis) 22:34:44 Sgeo: there's infinite space. 22:34:45 what's the problem? 22:35:04 But given a finite amount of time, only a small amount of space is accessible 22:35:08 and there's no reason that they can't fuck one after another 22:35:15 they aren't humans :P 22:35:28 Sgeo: given a finite amount of time, an arbitrary amount of space is accessible. 22:35:34 So where's the evolutionary pressure? 22:35:55 there's very little. 22:35:57 Phantom_Hoover: you talk some more. 22:36:08 Sgeo, space. 22:36:10 Sgeo: it is likely we would have to populate space with evil killers. 22:36:12 So they won't ever actually evolve intelligence without divine intervention? 22:36:17 That's literally the only resource to fight over. 22:36:17 to give them an evolutionary sex drive 22:36:28 Some space is better than other space. 22:36:36 Phantom_Hoover: that's unlikely 22:36:46 Different sections of space could have different laws of physics! 22:36:47 alise, corpses in the way? 22:36:49 Drive everyone mad! 22:37:17 Phantom_Hoover: destroy them 22:37:19 also, dying is unlikely 22:37:24 Sectors 22:37:30 Of a certain size of cells 22:37:32 A kills B. 22:37:33 i do think the best idea is to put a lot of threats in 22:37:37 Phantom_Hoover: how 22:37:37 Sectors are given rules randomly 22:38:05 alise, by firing a high-speed glider assault? 22:38:35 If you can snag the brain, the target is doomed. 22:38:43 If there is infinite space with superluminal travel, there is no need for anyone to ever be dead or eat anything anymore. Game of Life satisfies the first, but not the second. 22:38:46 Evil killers that can only be killed with attotechnology 22:39:18 * Phantom_Hoover regrets bringing up attotech in the first place. 22:39:25 >.> 22:39:48 The independent power supply thing is interesting, though. 22:40:02 alise, by firing a high-speed glider assault? 22:40:04 The idea is how to figure out how to make killers non-evil somehow..... it requires a use of relative morality depending on circumstances and the universe model, and even more confusing things..... 22:40:06 why would they evolve such killing mechanisms? 22:40:09 they have nothing to fight over 22:40:16 (they don't have to fight over space unless there's corpses) 22:40:23 (and if there aren't any threats, there is no death, and thus no corpses) 22:40:31 of course, this means they'll basically *never* adapt to anything 22:40:38 which is why i think you'd have to put a bunch of natural threats 22:40:44 bastards guns that fire huge columns rapidly 22:40:47 just to force evolution to happen 22:40:49 alise, Langton's Loops? 22:40:59 A cell gets surrounded pretty quickly. 22:41:03 If it 22:41:04 Of course, you could somehow do fake superluminal travel, maybe 22:41:09 (unless you start from a big bang scenario and let threats evolve, but seriously, even with seriously dilated time nobody's that patient!) 22:41:12 if it's a simple gun, could they learn to survive? 22:41:17 By slowing everything 22:42:37 alise, non-sparse soup? 22:42:55 So that space isn't necessarily habitable? 22:43:10 Phantom_Hoover: basically, an utterly chaotic initial configuration 22:43:21 and you hope it goes just right and ends up with little planets with nice aliens on them 22:43:36 this is not only incredibly unlikely with the fragility and tendency to form still life that atomic-level Life has, 22:43:37 If space truly is infinite, no need to hope 22:43:40 but it is also really boring. 22:43:47 Sgeo: repeating pattern, Q.E.D. 22:43:48 also, not true 22:43:51 probability 1 != has happened 22:43:56 sure, ok, it *has* happened 22:44:07 but technically, you could get a repeating pattern generated totally randomly across infinite space :) 22:44:19 here's a *REALLY* interesting thought experiment: 22:44:34 Imagine an infinite CA space. 22:44:49 Imagine that we have filled it lazily -- i.e. not computed until we look at that place -- with randomness. 22:45:03 This randomness is the kind that has produced civilisations everywhere (just not where we're looking). 22:45:12 Somehow, we have an algorithm that can simulate one part of space and keep the rest consistent, 22:45:19 so that if we looked at another part, we'd get what the state would be at this generation. 22:45:26 Now suppose we point our camera at somewhere without civilisations. 22:45:38 If we kept looking back at a civilisation, we'd see it develop, people live, etc.; "shit happening". 22:45:47 Then we could look away, and if we look back again, it'd be the same as if we didn't look away. 22:45:55 But *they are not computed* while we are looking away. 22:46:05 Are they still conscious and alive in these periods? 22:46:21 No. They have false memories implanted. 22:46:25 bullshit 22:46:26 that's metaphysical 22:46:29 Arguably false 22:46:37 consciousness is a byproduct of thinking. yes? 22:46:51 otherwise you're saying it's a metaphysical entity 22:46:57 which i don't think you want to say 22:47:12 now, the snapshots we take are exactly identical whether our computer runs it or not 22:47:22 therefore, the computation is still "done" 22:47:24 the results are viewable 22:47:27 it's just not actually computed on our machines 22:47:35 therefore, they are actually conscious *despite us not computing them at all* 22:47:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis 22:48:39 alise, Hashlife. 22:48:44 That's basically how it works. 22:48:49 Phantom_Hoover: Ex-fucking-actly. 22:48:53 *xactly. 22:48:59 And this is *so fucking cool*. 22:49:14 It actually *manages to legitimatise some form of Platonism*. 22:49:39 :D 22:49:52 Say you simulate a universe on a computer. Obviously this is just repeated application of a function of some sort. You're not doing anything unique. The initial state, and the answer to each successive application of the function, is a fact, whether you compute it or not. 22:49:57 Therefore: what does it matter if you compute it or not? 22:50:04 Your computation isn't "privileged"; it doesn't GIVE an answer. 22:50:08 The answer is already there. 22:50:15 You have made a camera. But you have not created a universe. 22:50:18 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:50:24 Whether you simulate it or not, the fact that the function has answers means *the universe already exists*. 22:50:33 Of course this is all unprovable philosophical twaddle. 22:50:37 But it's also beautiful. 22:50:58 It's like the simulation argument, except you say "why the fuck do we need to be simulated at all?". 22:51:08 Does this also imply that all self-consistent fiction is true? 22:51:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:51:27 Not true in our universe, but... in a way, yes. 22:51:36 The way I interpret it is closer to "*we* aren't even really 'true'". 22:51:50 If we're just Platonic, not-actually-changing mathematical structures... 22:52:00 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:52:04 Then although that function is a "fact" about time in that structure, 22:52:08 Not voluntarily. 22:52:09 We're not really "real" at all. 22:52:17 Phantom_Hoover: See you. 22:52:22 We're real relative to us 22:52:34 Bye :( 22:52:38 !! 22:52:39 Bye Phantom_Hoover 22:52:39 Phantom_Hoover: 22:52:40 Sexyloop[11] (2007): Sexyloop is a modification of Evoloop in which collisions often result in transfer of genetic material between loops. This increases diversity in evolution of new species of loops. 22:52:44 Evoloop[9] (1999): An extension of the SDSR loop, Evoloop is capable of interaction with neighboring loops as well as of evolution. Often, the greatest selection pressure in a colony of Evoloops is the competition for space, and natural selection favors the smallest functional loop present. Further studies demonstrated more complexity than originally thought in the Evoloop system.[10] 22:52:48 Phantom_Hoover: Bye. ^^^ ZOMGZ 22:52:50 Don't have any philosophical discussions without me! 22:52:54 Competition for space. 22:53:01 You're fucking right. 22:53:04 Genius bastard. 22:53:13 (Sexyloop is annoying, since I can't find the spec for it. 22:53:32 Now, to make enemies to increase pressure for intelligence 22:53:42 If infinite 2D space with 2-state cells is filled randomly and then Game of life rules are appiled to it, what happens? 22:53:46 Wait, that's not neede 22:54:33 It would not contain all possible subconfigurations... 22:55:43 Because there would be beth-zero cells and GOL has beth-one configurations... 22:56:29 Ilari: 2-state cells? 22:56:33 -!- jcp has joined. 22:56:36 oh i see 22:56:44 Life that's resistant to common space debris might not necessarily be able to survive exotic ships if one happens to hit 22:56:51 Ilari: stack an infinite number of random universes on top of each other :P 22:57:12 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:57:12 alise: Not enough unless number of universes is at least beth-one. 22:57:24 Since beth-zero + beth-zero = beth-zero. 22:57:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:57:56 -!- wareya has joined. 22:58:01 Ilari: true, it'd be beth-zero^2 22:58:02 hmm 22:58:22 Actually, beth-zero * beth-zero = beth-zero. 22:58:36 Suppose a spacefiller does happen to be nearby 22:58:43 It degrades due to debris 22:58:54 But couldn't that flood the area with gliders? 22:59:06 Here's fun one. Aleph-two * beth-one. 22:59:22 What's gimel-zero? 22:59:28 Does that equal aleph two or beth one? :-) 23:00:46 I think the answer is that its independent of ZFC. 23:01:55 It would be fun if P=NP? was shown to be independent in turing machine model. 23:02:52 In an infinite soup, surely gliders would continue to hit a given space 23:03:10 But would lessen in intensive, as gliders from further away end up hitting more debris along the way 23:05:56 What are CA rules with two slashes in them (in golly)? 23:15:24 They'd have their own cosmic background radiation 23:16:22 Does gimel-zero mean something? 23:18:40 ooh, same spam again from a different From address, this time with the subject "HTML !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 23:19:15 zzo38, well, aleph and beth are letters of the Hewbrew alphabet 23:19:17 bet? 23:19:36 ais523: Can'tcha just FEEL the HTML? 23:19:55 Ilari: Aleph-two * beth-one = Aleph-two + beth-one = max(Aleph-two, beth-one) but beth-one can be almost any aleph 23:20:31 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:20:39 Sgeo: I know that aleph and beth and gimel are letters of the Hebrew alphabet 23:20:52 if a gimel sequence exists, it's far more obscure than the others 23:20:57 That still doesn't tell me what gimel is used for in mathematics 23:21:17 Well, what's the difference between aleph-zero and beth-zero? 23:21:26 Or aleph-N and beth-N in general? 23:21:32 Extrapolate, you've got gimel-N 23:21:38 aleph-zero = beth-zero but from there the definitions are different 23:21:56 Sgeo: I think there is no difference between aleph-zero and beth-zero? But I don't know how aleph-N and beth-N will differ. 23:22:13 The continuum hypothesis means that aleph and beth might be the same, I think? 23:22:20 aleph-N is the Nth infinite well-orderable cardinal 23:22:26 But maybe not? There is no way to tell if it is same or not? 23:22:44 beth-(N+1) = 2^beth-N, and limits go to limits 23:23:11 the generalized continuum hypothesis says aleph-N = beth-N for all ordinals N 23:23:29 (with axiom of choice, every cardinal is an aleph) 23:24:10 however there are models of ZFC where the beths can be chosen _very_ freely among the alephs 23:25:11 there are some restrictions which i don't remember, but i think e.g. beth-one can be aleph-one, aleph-two, aleph-three and possibly any aleph 23:25:52 Is there a restriction that if beth-one is aleph-five, then beth-two cannot be aleph-four? 23:25:53 i do not recall ever seeing a definition for gimel-N 23:26:10 zzo38: yes, both sequences are increasing 23:26:33 oerjan: I have not seen a definition like that either 23:26:57 beth-omega must be the limit of the lower beths, so that's not free to choose 23:28:55 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:29:58 * oerjan wikipedes 23:30:07 Is there model where beth one equals aleph two but beth two equals aleph three? 23:30:24 Ilari: That was going to be my next question, too. 23:31:33 Life might not be immortal: It might evolve to depend on the cosmic background radiation 23:31:49 i _think_ but i'm trying to find some definite statement 23:31:52 Actually, probably not as it would imply that two sets of different size would have power set of same size... 23:31:53 *+so 23:32:02 Which _will_, eventually, die down. Not come to a halt, but come at lower levels than life needs for sustainability 23:32:19 Ilari: um how so? 23:32:28 I design a font where the character in position 'n' is the representation of '\n' 23:32:45 oh aleph-two and aleph-one 23:32:58 And so on for all of the other lowercase letters except 'x' 23:35:04 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 23:35:23 Obiviously set having more elements has at least as large power set. Thus powerset of aleph one would be at least as large as powerset of aleph zero (which is aleph two in this case) but no larger than powerset of aleph two (which would happen to be aleph three). There's nothing in between, so the powerset would have to equal one or other in size. 23:36:26 "A recent result of Carmi Merimovich shows that, for each n>=1, it is consistent with ZFC that for each k, 2^k is the nth successor of k." 23:36:47 Do you think such a definition as this is useful in TeX? \def\defnoexpand#1{\def#1{\noexpand#1\noexpand}} 23:37:29 that means you can have beth-one = aleph-two and beth-two = aleph-four, at least 23:38:01 -!- augur has joined. 23:38:13 (n is finite here) 23:40:42 What would be even more WTF to them: Knightship movement 23:40:50 Assuming that powerset of A is strictly larger than powerset of B if A is strictly larger than B, then there must be at least as many cardinailities between two consequtive beths as there was between previous beths... 23:41:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis#The_generalized_continuum_hypothesis 23:43:22 But I would like some suggestions how the representation of '\n' '\r' '\e' and so on should be drawn 23:43:40 Ilari: hm i don't think any of the examples in that section violate your hypothesis 23:44:07 otoh i would not bet on it being true 23:45:06 Actually, Hmm... that page has formula that says that strictly larger set can have equally sized powerset... 23:45:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:45:58 -!- augur has joined. 23:46:41 oh the second last inequality in that section? i guess that sort of implies it's not _known_ to be impossible, at least 23:47:27 on the assumption that inequality was added by someone who knew, at least - this _is_ wikipedia after all 23:47:35 *that that 23:49:00 oh... 23:49:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easton%27s_theorem 23:49:45 that's what i vaguely must have remembered when saying there were some restrictions 23:50:56 -!- nooga has joined. 23:52:43 aleph_omega is the first non-regular infinite cardinal, says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_cardinal 23:52:44 Two sets that are not isomorphic but have isomorphic powersets is somewhat mind-bending... 23:53:46 Obiviously those can't exist unless GCH is false... 23:55:18 i _think_ easton's theorem applies to the beth-one = aleph-two, beth-two = aleph-three case 23:55:59 or hm 23:56:45 we want G(0) = 2, G(2) = 3 23:59:08 seems to me to work