←2010-09-29 2010-09-30 2010-10-01→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:10 <Vorpal> Ilari, hypergolic is the last category?
00:00:56 <Ilari> I don't know if every hypergolic is an explosive... Some of them might just burn...
00:03:59 <Vorpal> night
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00:48:25 <alise> augur: GEOMTRIC
00:49:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:49:54 <alise> augur is allergic to geomtrics
00:50:37 <oerjan> it's very tricky stuff
01:02:57 <nooga> oerjan: what music do you like?
01:03:19 <pikhq> So, Visual Studio *2010* does not support C99.
01:03:33 <nooga> is it weird?
01:03:34 <pikhq> KILL IT WITH FIRE
01:03:37 <nooga> it's MS
01:04:00 <pikhq> I don't think you realise how backwards C90 is.
01:04:06 <nooga> i do
01:04:09 <nooga> believe me
01:05:04 <pikhq> This is like only supporting HTML 1.
01:05:59 <nooga> and this is Microsoft
01:06:45 <pikhq> Oh, right, these are the guys that actually spend effort making 15 year old programs run.
01:06:53 <pikhq> Erm, sorry, *25*.
01:08:24 <Sgeo> I think I should just state right now that I am not on the IE9 development team.
01:08:39 <Gregor> Ohhhhh
01:08:42 * Gregor writes that down.
01:09:21 <nooga> Gregor: without that "not"
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01:11:10 <Gregor> pikhq: MS just doesn't care about C.
01:11:13 <Gregor> They're more concerned with C++
01:11:28 <Gregor> They pretty much only support the subset of C that's also a subset of Microsoft C++.
01:12:12 <Gregor> Also, there are virtually no compilers in existence that fully support C99.
01:12:23 <Gregor> I think SUNPro does, but it's complete garbage otherwise, so *eh*
01:12:29 <Gregor> GCC doesn't.
01:12:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, but most of them at least *try*.
01:12:39 <Ilari> And also functions that differ from (semi-)standard ones apparently just by name (sprintf_s is just another name for snprintf?)
01:12:41 <Gregor> Fair enough :P
01:13:02 <Gregor> Ilari: stricmp!
01:13:16 <pikhq> Oh, GCC's missing support is currently just in glibc.
01:13:26 <Gregor> Oh, have they gotten to that point?
01:13:36 <Gregor> As of the last time I checked (4.2ish?) there were still lacks in GCC proper.
01:13:40 <pikhq> 4.5.
01:13:45 <pikhq> Yeah.
01:14:11 <pikhq> TinyCC does more than Visual Studio.
01:14:18 <pikhq> And it's a *fucking tiny* C compiler.
01:14:19 <Gregor> Hyuk
01:14:26 <Ilari> What function didn't GCC support?
01:14:47 <Gregor> Ilari: Probably some stupidly complicated corner case of complex or similar.
01:14:56 <Gregor> Of complex numbers, that is.
01:17:24 <Ilari> At least C99 doesn't have anything like 'export'.
01:18:08 <alise> <Sgeo> I think I should just state right now that I am not on the IE9 development team.
01:18:09 <alise> what
01:18:28 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/dkk3l/iama_we_are_members_of_the_ie9_product_team_here/
01:18:34 <Sgeo> One of the persons shares my first name
01:18:47 <alise> nobody cares dude :p
01:19:10 * Sgeo mutters something about sense of humor while falling asleep
01:19:26 <Sgeo> Maybe I should get some sleep tonight
01:21:28 <Ilari> export is really infamous for being virtually impossible to support.
01:23:42 <pikhq> There's a reason it's out of C++0x
01:25:16 <Ilari> Yeah... C++0x has other fun stuff... But nothing as bad as export.
01:33:39 <alise> Goodnight.
01:33:42 <alise> Bye.
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02:14:57 <nooga> alise
02:15:05 <nooga> went to sleeeep ehhehe
02:15:12 <nooga> he's got school tomorrow
02:15:44 <zzo38> I played D&D game today. I didn't quite get enough points for next level
02:15:54 <nooga> ;f
02:15:59 <nooga> i died in zangband again
02:16:11 <zzo38> But it almost always happens that me and my brother both get the same XP total (even though we did different things)
02:16:15 <nooga> with the most stupid death ever
02:16:18 <zzo38> And it happened today, too
02:16:42 <zzo38> So, different numbers are being added up, it just happens to be the same total
02:16:43 <nooga> brb, goodnight
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02:48:53 <pikhq> Reasonably settlable planet discovered a mere 20 light years away.
02:49:12 <pikhq> We could totally settle that sucker with a generation ship.
02:50:59 <Ilari> Maybe not... Small star, likely tidally locked...
02:51:21 <pikhq> It's confirmed to be tidally locked. In the habitable zone of orbit.
02:51:57 <Slereah> Also you'd need the NASA to actually do something.
02:52:06 <pikhq> Slereah: Yes, yes.
02:52:08 <Slereah> How 'bout going back to the moon, first
02:54:53 <Ilari> Many things with life need to be within limits... Too small star and you get too much variablitity and tidelocking. Too large star and it doesn't live long enough. Too near star and water vaporizes, too far from star and water freezes. Too small planet and one doesn't get magnetic field. Too large planet and it becomes gas giant...
02:55:55 <pikhq> Ilari: Here's the thing: they have confirmed that it is at just the right distance to have liquid water, and just the right size to have a reasonable atmosphere.
02:56:01 <Ilari> Oh, and no other planets with badly behaved orbits... And large mooon...
02:56:26 <pikhq> That it's tidelocked just means that there's only a relatively small strip that's at the right temperature.
02:57:38 <Ilari> Okay, for primitive life (bacteria), the limits are wider, but for higher life the conditions have to be pretty much just right.
02:58:15 <pikhq> It's almost certainly got liquid water, and a range of temperatures from blistering hot to absolutely freezing.
02:58:32 <pikhq> Granted, there could very well be something to fuck that up.
02:58:39 <pikhq> (sulpheric acid rain, say?)
02:59:09 <pikhq> But, hell. It's the most likely planet to have life on it. Or to support terrestrial life.
02:59:50 <Ilari> I would say Mars is more likely planet to harbor (simple) life than that place...
03:00:10 <pikhq> Oh, right. Mars has evidence of liquid water, too.
03:00:39 <Ilari> And also phenomena that pretty much can only mean volcanic or biologic activity...
03:00:44 <pikhq> And we know that it doesn't have anything to royally fuck up simple life.
03:01:25 <pikhq> You could probably just let loose some convenient bacteria if you wanted to start a long-term terraforming project.
03:01:38 <pikhq> (... *Really* long term.)
03:02:29 <Ilari> Just thickening the atmosphere would be handy (so you wouldn't have to deal with big pressure diffentials).
03:03:08 <pikhq> And making it have a bit of a more convenient composition.
03:03:38 <pikhq> Even if you couldn't make it support complex life directly (probably couldn't do this), it *would* be nice to make it easy to go from Martian air to breathable air.
03:04:30 <Ilari> That's longer term project... The minimal pressure one can generate long-term breathable atmosphere with is something like 1/3 bar.
03:05:09 <pikhq> Yeah, but we're talking terraforming Mars. Most of it's going to be long-term.
03:05:32 <pikhq> Especially if you want to, say, bring it closer to the Sun. :P
03:06:01 <pikhq> (totally possible, if probably harder than just setting up a gigantic dome over *everything*)
03:07:06 <Ilari> Also, sucking loads of CO2 from atmosphere of Venus and dumping to Mars? Nice extra bonus that CO2 happens to be greenhouse gas...
03:07:42 <pikhq> And Earth.
03:07:49 <pikhq> Solution to global warming while we're at it.
03:12:52 <Ilari> Atmosphere of Earth doesn't have that much CO2 one could extract. Only some 500 gigatons (or something like that). One would need something like 500 teratons of stuff to thicken atmosphere of mars to useful densities...
03:14:16 <pikhq> Yes, but it would still be a convenient source for a short time, and we *could* do with a good place to dump all this long-buried CO2.
03:14:45 <pikhq> More of a solution for the global warming problem than the higher-pressure Mars problem, though.
03:16:05 <Ilari> But looking realistically at global warming problem, it has no graceful solutions...
03:16:49 <pikhq> Except for surreptitiously taking all the fossil fuels and launching them to orbit, you mean. :P
03:17:02 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait. Oil companies would just start space programs.
03:17:16 <pikhq> Somehow.
03:19:54 * oerjan thinks algae biofuel sounds pretty graceful
03:23:26 <pikhq> oerjan: That's a solution to *further* CO2 addition. We've already dumped a heck of a lot into the air, though.
03:23:37 <pikhq> Aaaand smaller quantities of other not-helpful things.
03:23:41 <Ilari> Sure, algae biofuels are probably among the best stuff biofuels can provode...
03:24:09 <pikhq> We're already seeing a lot of painful effects from what we've done.
03:24:19 <pikhq> While people deny it's even happening.
03:24:21 <oerjan> not if we produce _more_ algae than we burn...
03:24:21 <lament> THE WORLD IS DOOMED!!!
03:24:35 <pikhq> oerjan: And then dump it into an oil well?
03:24:39 <pikhq> :)
03:24:47 <oerjan> well that's an option :D
03:24:49 <lament> the oceans are rising!!!
03:24:59 <pikhq> lament: No, things to the south will get much hotter, and coastlines will change.
03:25:02 <lament> soon entire continents will be submerged!!!
03:25:26 <pikhq> And Norway will have very pleasant weather year-round.
03:25:33 <pikhq> As will Canada.
03:25:42 <Ilari> IIRC, if all ice in icecaps melted, that would only be something like 60-70m sea level rise...
03:25:43 <lament> sounds like a good thing to me
03:26:01 <lament> more, i think
03:26:01 <pikhq> Ilari: Still enough to rather notably change coastlines.
03:26:18 <oerjan> i've heard about 70m i think
03:26:49 <Quadrescence> lament: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eq2-WH7WoE
03:27:05 <pikhq> And why do people deny global warming *still*?
03:27:26 <lament> because it isn't happening
03:27:33 <Gregor> And that is the extent of my understanding of science.
03:27:47 <pikhq> lament: Um, what?
03:28:00 <Ilari> And regarding geoengineering... X watts of radiative forcing and Y watts of forcing via greenhouse gasses is not the same as X - Z watts of radiative forcing and Y + Z watts of forcing via greenhouse gasses...
03:28:09 <pikhq> I hope that was sarcasm.
03:28:20 <lament> Quadrescence: Um, what?
03:28:35 <pikhq> Sure, it's not the end of the world or anything, but it's certainly *happening* and being quite inconvenient.
03:28:54 <lament> I'm not inconvenienced by the global warming in the slightest.
03:29:00 <lament> It's the evolution that bothers me more.
03:29:18 <Ilari> You are joking, right?
03:29:22 <pikhq> Ah, right, Canada. Global warming is a convenience to you.
03:29:31 <lament> The oceans rose something like 15 cm
03:29:34 <Gregor> pikhq: It's workin' out great for Russia!
03:29:41 <lament> over the whole period of global warming
03:29:47 <lament> i'm unimpressed
03:30:09 <pikhq> lament: You... Are joking, right?
03:30:32 <lament> and yes global warming if taken far will have a bunch of positive as well as negative effects
03:30:46 <pikhq> The whole rising sea level thing is an astoundingly minor deal to everyone who's not at 70m or less elevation.
03:30:58 <lament> pikhq: 70m is if all the ice caps melt
03:31:03 <lament> which is not happening
03:31:07 <pikhq> Well. If you're at 71m elevation, the rising sea level thing will be absolutely wonderful for you.
03:31:19 <pikhq> lament: Dude, there is now a Northwest Passage.
03:31:24 <lament> so?
03:31:27 <Quadrescence> if the ice caps melt......where will we get our ice???
03:31:31 <Gregor> pikhq: Wait, seriously?
03:31:35 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes.
03:31:40 <lament> that's a pretty big difference from the entire antarctica melting
03:31:44 <Gregor> I so intensely ignore the worst parts of the news I wasn't aware of this :P
03:31:52 <pikhq> Gregor: The ice has melted enough that there has been a Northwest Passage for a year or so.
03:32:10 <lament> pikhq: isn't that a good thing?
03:32:12 <Gregor> pikhq: Article or it didn't happen :P
03:32:19 <pikhq> lament: Good chunks of Antarctica is melting.
03:32:22 <pikhq> s/is/are/
03:32:26 <lament> dude
03:32:27 <Quadrescence> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Passage
03:32:29 <lament> what good chunks
03:32:33 <lament> what are you talking about
03:32:38 * Ilari checks cryosphere today...
03:32:46 <lament> like 0.00000001% is in any danger of melting
03:32:47 <zzo38> If you have an infinite number of monkeys, typing an infinte number of messages, on an infinite number of typewriters, with infinite paper and ink ribbon, what is the probability that you will dye tomorrow?
03:32:55 <oerjan> there was this team that sailed through _both_ the northwest and northeast passage this year
03:32:56 <lament> zzo38: 6
03:33:09 <oerjan> i _think_ it was norwegian
03:33:21 <lament> sounds like something norwegians would do
03:33:50 <pikhq> lament: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/2007_Arctic_Sea_Ice.jpg Well, here's the shrinking Artic.
03:35:38 <lament> pikhq: the arctic ice cap is tiny and basically irrelevant
03:35:43 <Quadrescence> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_shrinkage
03:35:46 <oerjan> zzo38: are you spelling dye correctly there?
03:36:01 <zzo38> oerjan: I think so. I do know I don't mean "die"
03:36:04 <pikhq> lament: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Antarctic_Ice_Melt-First_Year.jpg And here's where they're starting to see Antarctic melting.
03:36:07 <oerjan> ok
03:36:30 <lament> pikhq: right. that's the tiny bit.
03:36:51 <oerjan> it didn't _use_ to be tiny *ducks*
03:36:52 <lament> pikhq: antarctica has multi-kilometer ice sheets and the little bits at the edges are melting. Big whoop.
03:37:32 <lament> that's why the ocean level rise has been 15cm out of the total of 60 meters
03:37:40 <oerjan> glaciers usually _start_ melting at the edges, lament
03:38:04 <pikhq> Okay, so you're unimpressed by how Antarctica, a continent that does not normally have liquid ice, has started melting.
03:38:25 <lament> oh!
03:38:32 <lament> i'm definitely impressed if they have liquid ice.
03:38:38 <lament> what the fuck does that even mean?
03:38:43 <pikhq> That was a thinko.
03:38:48 <pikhq> Liquid water.
03:38:55 <pikhq> Though, liquid ice = water, so...
03:39:50 <lament> well obviously antarctica has water, all this ice is melting into the ocean
03:40:39 <lament> anyway check wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_ice_sheet
03:40:50 <pikhq> There's also been quite a lot of glacier melting...
03:41:04 <lament> 2007 showed the largest positive anomaly of sea ice in the southern hemisphere since records have been kept starting in 1979 and 2008 is currently on pace to surpass last years record.[15] The atmospheric warming cannot be directly linked to the recent mass losses in West Antarctica.
03:41:09 <lament> This mass loss is more likely to be due to increased melting of the ice shelves because of changes in ocean circulation patterns.
03:41:20 <lament> The melting and disappearance of the floating ice shelves will only have a small effect on sea level, which is due to salinity differences.
03:41:25 <lament> in other words, you're lying to me.
03:41:59 <pikhq> ... In other words, you're bullshitting me. "LALALAGLOBALWARMINGISNOTREALBECAUSEITSNOTTHEAPOCALYPSE"
03:42:29 <lament> eh, of course there's a real increase in temperature
03:42:49 <lament> and sure i can dream that one day canada will be warmer
03:42:52 <lament> but i don't have much hope :(
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03:46:15 <pikhq> BTW, the current sea level rise rate is 2.8 mm per year. And increasing. Even if we assume it's a constant rate, that's still a 0.28 meter rise in sea level over a century. Which is enough to fuck with a good few coastal cities.
03:47:26 <lament> 28cm
03:47:31 <lament> i'm drowning!!
03:48:15 <lament> waves are usually higher than that.
03:48:16 <pikhq> Well, either fuck with them or we have a lot of Venice clones.
03:48:45 <pikhq> You have 1-foot waves?
03:49:24 <lament> more like wavelets
03:49:42 <pikhq> Still, that's an *increasing* rate.
03:50:12 <lament> by the time this will add up to any actual damage, we'll have ran out of oil anyway :)
03:50:24 <pikhq> And it'll still be going.
03:50:29 <pikhq> ... Which is the problem.
03:51:09 <lament> not for very long, the surplus carbon and stuff gets absorbed
03:51:34 <lament> note that the switch from coal power plants had an almost immediate effect on global warming
03:51:49 <pikhq> "Switch from"? Cute.
03:53:25 <zzo38> The media player skin I use has no graphical buttons for anything, it displays "M==" when playing, "M=|" when paused, "M=_" if stopped, and "P0+" if the file has been closed (I don't quite know why). (When playing Vorbis files though, I just use SoX instead.)
03:54:02 <pikhq> Some countries are better, some are worse, but: the US produces 44% of its power from coal. And another 24% from other fossil fuels.
03:56:04 * Gregor <3 nuclear power.
03:56:22 * pikhq <3 nuclear power.
03:57:26 <zzo38> You have to use wind for power, then.
03:57:39 <pikhq> Never mind that coal emits more radiation than a nuclear power plant.
03:57:45 <Gregor> Wind power is great, but we just don't have the technology to use it as primary yet.
03:57:47 <pikhq> Erm, a coal power plant.
03:57:57 <Gregor> Hydroelectric is great where it works.
03:58:13 <pikhq> Gregor: Sure we do, it's just much cheaper to burn shit.
03:59:15 <pikhq> Likewise with solar power.
03:59:58 <Gregor> Mmmm, I don't even know if that's true. I think that watts per sq. ft. taken is much, much greater with coal or nuclear. If we started powering major cities with wind, we would need to take an impractical amount of space for wind farms. Maybe that's not true :P
04:00:02 <Gregor> I'll talk to my friend in wind power.
04:00:45 <pikhq> Gregor: I don't think you realise that we could reasonably sacrifice a few *states* to the cause.
04:00:49 <pikhq> ;)
04:01:18 <pikhq> Would anyone be sad about Kansas farmers having to farm between windmills?
04:01:39 <Gregor> Mr. Wind Power sez: availability.
04:01:48 <Gregor> Or, more to the point, wind power only works somewhere with a LOT of wind.
04:01:52 <pikhq> Kansas.
04:01:53 <Gregor> So it's no more general than hydroelectric.
04:02:08 <Quadlex> Bees!
04:02:11 <pikhq> Granted, distribution is then a *massive* problem.
04:02:12 * Quadlex is excited
04:02:14 <Quadlex> My bees are ready
04:02:26 <pikhq> But Kansas is windy pretty much all the time.
04:02:33 <pikhq> I'm not even exaggerating.
04:02:43 <Gregor> ---: Just like solar, there are times when you're producing lots of power, and then there are times when you're not producing any
04:02:43 <Gregor> ---: Moreover, the variability needs to be balanced with something steady and controllable, so that you can have the exact amount of energy you need at any given time without wild swings
04:03:18 <pikhq> Storage: perfectly possible with modern technology, but more expensive than burning shit.
04:03:42 <Gregor> I'm still poking at him :P
04:04:17 <pikhq> Of course, nuclear power has much fewer things to deal with. In fact, the *only* thing stopping us is "EVERY NUCLEAR POWER PLANT IS CHERNOBYL".
04:05:06 <pikhq> Oh, and a minor reluctance to reprocess nuclear waste so we get more use out of the fuel and much easier to deal with waste.
04:05:30 <pikhq> But that's easier to deal with than irrationality of a large chunk of the population.
04:06:15 <Gregor> I suggested Kansas-sized capacitors.
04:06:25 <Gregor> He suggested pumped-storage hydroelectricity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
04:06:34 <Gregor> Storing electrical energy as gravitational potential energy.
04:06:37 <Gregor> That ... is so much awesome.
04:06:38 <pikhq> Yeah, the pump-storage is much more likely.
04:06:45 <pikhq> And it could be Kansas-sized.
04:06:55 <pikhq> Or, better still, Arizona-sized.
04:07:00 <pikhq> With solar plants on top.
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04:07:10 <Sgeo> I guess I should learn how to build an ALU
04:07:25 <Sgeo> ...I think one's been done in AW already
04:08:04 <pikhq> There's a large number of ways you can store energy that are really, astoundingly simple. Flywheels. Compressed air. Pumped-storage hydroelectricity.
04:08:25 <pikhq> I don't know how practical this is, but launching things up into the air and waiting for them to fall. :P
04:08:47 <pikhq> Mmm, potential energy.
04:10:24 <lament> ejaculating into a dam
04:11:05 <pikhq> Only if you're a fish.
04:11:19 <Gregor> I'm told that in Oregon (y'know, a state that DOESN'T suck), renewable energy sources are ~80% of power production.
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04:15:01 <pikhq> Yeah, and to make up for it there's probably a state that burns fuel *just to spite you*.
04:15:13 <pikhq> No boiler attached or anything. Just set it on fire.
04:15:13 <pikhq> :P
04:17:50 <Gregor> So which is more polluting I wonder: a Toyota Prius hybrid, or a Nissan Leaf driven and recharged in Indiana?
04:18:42 <pikhq> The fucking Hummer that PEOPLE ACTUALLY DRIVE AROUND HERE.
04:19:03 <Gregor> I just see a lot of perfectly-clean pickups.
04:19:18 <Gregor> I find the perfectly-clean pickup to be pretty damned offensive.
04:20:28 <pikhq> For those unaware: a Hummer is a civilian version of the military Humvee vehicle.
04:20:33 <pikhq> It gets 8 miles per gallon.
04:21:47 <pikhq> And it's heavy enough to count as a tax writeoff meant to apply to owner-operated semi-trucks.
04:25:43 <pikhq> It is literally 3 tons. Damn.
04:25:49 <Gregor> Perhaps the most offensive vehicle ever produced is the stretch hummer.
04:26:16 <Gregor> I feel the only appropriate thing to do when you see a stretch hummer is open the passenger door and riddle the cabin with bullets.
04:26:26 <Gregor> Try not to kill the driver, who's probably relatively innocent.
04:26:46 <pikhq> Quite true.
04:28:13 <pikhq> Oh, wow. It's so heavy it's exempt from safety regulations.
04:28:45 <Gregor> ... what ... what does that even mean?
04:29:03 <pikhq> Because it's heavy enough to count as a *bus* or *semitruck* according to the law.
04:29:29 <Gregor> It seems to me like those ought to have /greater/ safety regulations.
04:30:04 <pikhq> Nope.
04:30:05 <pikhq> Less.
04:30:20 <Gregor> I guess I'm just a bright-eyed optimist.
04:31:38 <pikhq> If it were much heavier, though, you would need a commercial driver's license to operate it.
04:32:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/dkkst/reminder_40_of_aols_revenue_still_comes_from/c10wn7g
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05:09:42 <pikhq> Oh my fucking GOD people are morons.
05:10:06 <pikhq> Apparently some people *try to drive around the lowered barrier* at railroad crossings.
05:10:26 <Gregor> Eh, my hummer can take on a train.
05:16:49 <Gregor> I've heard that killing a pedestrian is like a rite of passage for train drivers.
05:19:19 <pikhq> I can at least kinda-sorta understand people who are literally suicidal jumping in front of a train.
05:19:30 <pikhq> But it takes a lot of stupidity to just decide to try and beat the train.
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05:29:30 <Sgeo> pikhq, linky?
05:30:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Nothing about people actually doing it, per se.
05:31:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: But US traffic regulations actually require in many cases that the crossing be designed to make this impossible *because people try it*.
05:31:34 <Sgeo> o.O
05:38:20 <Gregor> The concern of the regulations, for what it's worth, is damaging /trains/.
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05:41:21 <pikhq> Well, yes. Damage to a car is nothing more than at most a handful of people dying.
05:41:56 <pikhq> Damage to a train is a gigantic mess and causes massive monetary damage.
05:42:06 <pikhq> In addition to a handful of people dying.
05:46:49 <Gregor> Also, it's sort of silly to concern yourself with people who are too stupid to live, err, not doing so.
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06:19:33 <zzo38> Look at this: http://kevtris.org/Projects/votraxpss/module.html (The "method 3" is a similar method to how the internal ROM of the Nintendo DS was dumped. Something that was not meant as code was treated as a THUMB code anyways, and it worked.....)
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06:31:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, but WHAT THE HELL HOW ARE PEOPLE THAT STUPID
06:31:49 <pikhq> Also, Praise be unto Darwin.
06:56:25 <zzo38> Are there any computers that allow you to dynamically modify the microcodes at runtime?
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14:29:19 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the intergalactic hub for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:29:25 <fizzie> (It's important to have goals.)
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14:45:12 <ais523> !help languages
14:45:14 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
14:47:38 <ais523> !cintercal DO .1 <- #1 DO COME FROM (99) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE .2 <- #1 (10) DO (1000) NEXT (99) DO .1 <- .3 DO COME FROM .1 PLEASE GIVE UP
14:48:08 <ais523> yay, worked first time
14:48:16 <ais523> it DCCed me the numbers from 1 to 10 in Roman numerals
14:48:52 <ais523> (I was reading about FizzBuzz, and someone commented that most of the people who applied for programming jobs couldn't even write a loop that went from 1 to 10 in every language in their resume...)
14:49:07 <ais523> admittedly, you can only put that specific loop once in each program, but there are ways to modify it to work around that
14:49:36 <ais523> I was also trying to make the program as clear as possible, at least as clear as INTERCAL gets
14:49:55 <ais523> allowing for the fact that I forgot where "add 1" was in the standard library, so just used a general addition routine instead
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14:57:23 <fizzie> ais523: Do you have INTERCAL listed in your resume?
14:57:32 <ais523> I don't have a resume atm
14:57:38 <ais523> but I would probably list INTERCAL on it if I did have one
14:57:49 <ais523> given that I'm probably in the top 10 in the world for INTERCAL programming
14:58:09 <ais523> (how does my above program do for readability? that's as important as making sure it works, sometimes...)
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14:59:27 <ais523> for those who don't know INTERCAL, (1000) is the address of the standard addition routine; I think that's the only bit of INTERCAL-specific knowledge necessary to understand the program, if you know or can guess how COME FROM works
14:59:57 <fizzie> I could guess it was the addition routine based on the fact that you said you used one.
15:01:02 <ais523> I could write addition out by hand, but it'd likely take several tries
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15:01:11 <ais523> there's a reason it's in the standard library...
15:02:08 <fizzie> It looks very readable, though. I guess you use .1 as an accumulator, and the addition adds .1 and .2 and stores the result to .3.
15:02:12 <ais523> yep
15:02:25 <ais523> here's my Slashdot sig: (1)DOCOMEFROM".2~.2"~#1WHILE:1&lt;-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&amp;.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
15:02:35 <Sgeo> http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/planescape_torment
15:02:37 <fizzie> The loop-terminating "computed come-from" is lovely, if it works like I'd guess.
15:02:37 * Sgeo wants
15:02:48 <ais523> it could be golfed slightly more, but I was only trying to get it short enough to fit in the sigblock
15:02:55 <ais523> fizzie: yep, it does
15:03:01 <ais523> assuming you're reasonably good at guessing
15:03:51 <ais523> that sig addition would take rather longer to explain than the above code; not only is it golfed, but it uses a bunch of extensions
15:05:22 <fizzie> Sgeo: How incredibly coincidental; it's not many days ago that PS:T was discussed here.
15:05:30 <Vorpal> <ais523> (I was reading about FizzBuzz, and someone commented that most of the people who applied for programming jobs couldn't even write a loop that went from 1 to 10 in every language in their resume...) <-- do you have intercal listed in your resume?
15:05:45 <ais523> Vorpal: <fizzie> ais523: Do you have INTERCAL listed in your resume?
15:05:58 <ais523> <ais523> I don't have a resume atm <ais523> but I would probably list INTERCAL on it if I did have one
15:06:07 <Vorpal> I hadn't read that far
15:06:27 <fizzie> ais523: See, it's the same thing everyone is surprised by.
15:06:46 <ais523> I was once asked how many programming languages I knew by a journalist
15:07:14 <ais523> I estimated about 30 that I'd be competent enough in to try to do work in, including about 10 esolangs
15:07:25 <Sgeo> I'd have no idea how I'd answer that question
15:07:26 <ais523> far fewer that I'd be up to speed in without practice first
15:07:29 <fizzie> I have a catch-all "esoteric programming languages" mention in the "hobbies" section in the not-really-up-to-date CV I've sent around.
15:07:42 <Vorpal> mhm
15:07:44 <Sgeo> Would that include languages I''ve read about?
15:07:50 <ais523> (e.g. I had to look at some OCaml code as part of my job this week, and I hadn't used that language for over a year...)
15:08:00 <ais523> Sgeo: any language that you can write a loop that counts from 1 to 10 in, off the top of your head
15:08:14 <ais523> typos, etc., are forgivable if you can correct them after getting a compile error
15:08:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you include stuff like sed and awk into that count?
15:08:31 <Vorpal> and dc and so on
15:08:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I haven't counted anything.
15:09:03 <Vorpal> mhm
15:09:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, but in your estimate I mean
15:09:22 <ais523> in my case, I don't know sed well enough to really claim competence in it, although I can use it if I have the info pages handy
15:09:27 <ais523> and I hardly know awk at all
15:09:39 <ais523> (why would someone learn sed, awk, /and/ Perl?)
15:09:44 <Vorpal> I know awk better than sed. sed I know a very limited subset of
15:09:59 <Vorpal> basically, sdpq and a few more
15:09:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't have an estimate either. I don't really know what is the "that count" you were referring to there.
15:10:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh I somehow read "<ais523> I was once asked how many programming languages I knew by a journalist" as starting with "<fizzie>"
15:10:22 <Vorpal> meh
15:10:47 <ais523> Vorpal: half the commands in sed seem to be grouped into s somehow
15:10:53 <Vorpal> you two should 1) stop having same nick length 2) stop sending lines while I blink thus making stuff jump a line
15:10:55 <Sgeo> People in school think I know a lot of languages, just because I talk about a lot of languages :/
15:10:56 <ais523> presumably because they ran out of letters
15:11:18 <ais523> also, "fizzie" is shorter than "ais523", it contains more occurrences of the letter i, not to mention that f and e are shorter than numbers in most fonts
15:11:24 <Vorpal> ais523, hm? s is just... substitute iirc?
15:11:37 <ais523> Vorpal: nope, e.g. s///e is how you call shell commands
15:11:42 <ais523> it's substitute then do other things
15:11:53 <Vorpal> ais523, what do you mean shorter? same letter count, and you know I use fixed font
15:11:55 <Vorpal> in my terminal
15:12:04 <ais523> you use a /terminal/ for IRC?
15:12:12 <ais523> don't you use your terminal for, say, programming?
15:12:13 <Vorpal> ais523, everyone using irssi does too?
15:12:17 <ais523> IRC is something you have on in the background
15:12:46 <Vorpal> ais523, but yes I use ERC in emacs running in terminal
15:12:46 * Sgeo hopes he won't be late for school
15:12:59 <Sgeo> Vorpal, tried that once for kicks
15:13:22 <Sgeo> I think I had a screenshot somewhere
15:13:28 <ais523> Vorpal: more excusable then, although Emacs is perfectly capable of variable-width fonts
15:13:53 <fizzie> Emacs in a terminal isn't, though.
15:14:17 <Vorpal> almost everything in a terminal isn't compatible with variable width
15:14:25 <ais523> I only run Emacs in a terminal when I want to termcast it
15:14:36 <Vorpal> and also, a lot of stuff on irc is fixed width. Like lists from various services
15:15:05 <fizzie> And dbc's ascii-art.
15:15:11 <Vorpal> hm
15:15:14 <ais523> heh, I've just noticed that in this font, "fizzie" is actually shorter than "Sgeo"
15:15:15 <Vorpal> that was ages ago iirc
15:15:18 <ais523> although only by a few pixels
15:15:32 <fizzie> I think there was in... not more than five years ago.
15:16:25 <Vorpal> :P
15:18:14 <Sgeo> Ok, bye all
15:20:03 <Vorpal> why do so many power supplies for laptops and similar make a very high pitched noise when they are "idle" (not charging device and device is mostly idle)
15:20:55 <Vorpal> it's like they were designed by someone deaf. Extremely annoying. My thinkpad power supply is thankfully unusually quiet. Most other ones are not
15:21:23 <ais523> Vorpal: mine old one actually had an alarm that sounded when it short-circuited
15:21:30 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's connected somehow
15:21:41 <Vorpal> ais523, um, it short-circuited?
15:21:42 <Vorpal> that sounds bad
15:21:45 <ais523> (presumably my current one does too as it's the same model, but I'm unwilling to short-circuit it to find out
15:21:47 <ais523> Vorpal: it was bad
15:22:05 <ais523> I was without a laptop for around a week, and the PSU actually caught fire for a moment
15:22:15 <Vorpal> wtf
15:22:58 <ais523> it's a good thing that shutting off the power upon an electrical fire is a reflex action for an electronic engineer...
15:23:07 <Vorpal> ais523, hm well this depends on load, and seems to happen during normal operation. Usually worse on older power supplies, but not always. And from what I remember it doesn't get much worse over time.
15:23:17 <Vorpal> ais523, but how could it short
15:23:18 <Vorpal> ...
15:23:24 <ais523> mechanical issues
15:23:27 <Vorpal> hm
15:23:35 <ais523> the insulation between the positive and negative outputs had worn away somehow
15:24:00 <Vorpal> ais523, you left it connected for a week when you didn't use it? Or did I misinterpret "<ais523> I was without a laptop for around a week, and the PSU actually caught fire for a moment" ?
15:24:07 <ais523> no, I unplugged it
15:24:12 <fizzie> I have been under the impression that the whine is mostly related to capacitors. I have a cell phone charger that has an absolutely incredible noise, though in its case it was pretty silent at first, only started being noisy later.
15:24:20 <ais523> that and is a logical and, it isn't meant to carry over context from one part of the sentence to another
15:24:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
15:24:36 <ais523> fizzie: that's plausible, although it'd be a pretty dubious capacitor that made noise while it was working
15:24:39 <ais523> in theory, they have no moving parts
15:24:51 <ais523> in practice, they have a lot of parts which aren't always well-secured, as capacitance depends on the shape...
15:25:12 <Vorpal> hm
15:25:16 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor#Capacitance_instability -- "In the reverse microphonic effect, the varying electric field between the capacitor plates exerts a physical force, moving them as a speaker. This can generate audible sound, but drains energy and stresses the dielectric and the electrolyte, if any." -- is talking about the same thing.
15:25:44 <fizzie> Oh, and I have one video card that makes an even crazier noise when it's doing 3D; but not in normal use.
15:25:53 <ais523> capacitor microphones work by having one of the plates deliberately not fixed in place
15:26:13 <ais523> whereas for the opposite effect, it would be a case of the plate not being fixed by accident
15:26:13 <Vorpal> all PSUs does make a noise to some degree in my experience. Even my thinkpad one when idle. I just have to put my ear next to it in that case
15:26:22 <Vorpal> and it is rather lower pitch
15:26:57 <ais523> the pitch will depend on the frequency
15:27:15 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if laptop PSUs were switched-mode, and thus used a frequency much higher than mains frequency to operate
15:27:26 <ais523> it explains why the pitch is much higher than 50 or 60Hz, and not constant
15:27:33 <Vorpal> ais523, well I have an older dell laptop next to my thinkpad, it's charger makes a higher pitch noise and a lot louder too
15:27:49 <Vorpal> I can hear it above the constant speed fans of my desktop
15:27:57 <Vorpal> which are not exactly quiet
15:28:48 <Vorpal> ais523, if the dell is loaded the noise goes away, same if it is charging. Just idle (and even more so, suspend to ram) causes the noise
15:29:02 <Vorpal> and it is definitely the power supply brick for it
15:30:12 <fizzie> The noisy cell phone charger noise has this rhythmic component in it, and it changes depending on whether it's just plugged in the wall without a phone or whether it's actually charging the phone.
15:31:01 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, if you listen at the PSU you are using atm I bet you will hear it makes some noise (if you are using a laptop, I never seen, or rather heard, this issue with a desktop, maybe because they are usually louder when it comes to fans and such anyway)
15:31:11 <ais523> Vorpal: I know it makes noise
15:31:16 <ais523> and even mentioned that earlier
15:31:23 <Vorpal> hm I must have missed that line
15:31:37 <ais523> mostly it happens when not loaded, if you unplug it from both the plug and the laptop there's a faint whirring noise which reduces as time goes on until it runs out
15:31:51 <ais523> (which makes sense, as the thing isn't being powered by anything but energy left in its capacitors when that happens)
15:33:06 <Vorpal> the issue here is really that for the dell "faint" is not a property that can be used to describe the noise. Something like "high pitched enough that anyone older than 50 won't hear it, and likely to induce severe headaches in anyone capable of hearing it" is more apt.
15:33:37 * Vorpal turns off the laptop and unplugs it
15:40:18 <fizzie> In other news, I was thinking of maybe applying http://www.cis.hut.fi/projects/mi/papers/mlg2010graphvis_preprint.pdf on that "people who talk with each other on the channel" graph. (And maybe plain NeRV dimensionality reduction for those writing-style points too.)
15:41:29 <fizzie> (My long-term goal seems to be to make this the most visualized freenode channel evar.)
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16:28:35 <alise> hi
16:28:50 <ais523> hi
16:29:01 <alise> hi
16:30:53 <ais523> rehi
16:31:11 <ais523> fizzie: convert everything that's happened into the channel into a matrix, then extract its eigenvectors
16:31:14 <ais523> they probably mean something
16:31:14 <alise> iher
16:36:15 <Vorpal> <fizzie> (My long-term goal seems to be to make this the most visualized freenode channel evar.) <-- yay
16:36:45 <alise> 21:46:49 <Gregor> Also, it's sort of silly to concern yourself with people who are too stupid to live, err, not doing so.
16:36:48 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you convert the logs to a matrix?
16:36:57 <ais523> no idea
16:37:01 <Vorpal> ais523, ah :D
16:37:09 <alise> Gregor: except of course that train drivers who end up running into people get *serious* long-term psychological damage
16:37:15 <alise> unless you didn't mean that
16:38:19 <Vorpal> alise, and it is rather shocking for other people on the train too, though indeed the train drivers get the worst effects by far.
16:38:48 <alise> yeah people on the train get shaken for a few days, drivers continue the cycle by jumping in front of another train :P
16:38:51 <alise> 07:02:25 <ais523> here's my Slashdot sig: (1)DOCOMEFROM".2~.2"~#1WHILE:1&lt;-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&amp;.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
16:38:55 <alise> with the &lt; and &amp;? >:)
16:39:01 <ais523> alise: yes, it's HTML
16:39:06 <ais523> as with other Slashdot sigs
16:39:09 <Vorpal> alise, and think of the people who have to clean up the mess too, can't be fun either
16:39:10 <ais523> it looks correct on the page
16:39:17 <alise> INTERHTMLCAL
16:39:24 <ais523> but the escaping's relevant due to trying to fit within character count
16:39:37 <ais523> I could save one character by changing ".2~.2" to !2~.2'
16:39:42 <alise> Vorpal: "I found something!" "What is it?" "Uhh... brain?... or something?"
16:39:56 <alise> ais523: do that, then :P
16:39:56 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's golfable further than that, unless some of the sparkears groups can be omitted entirely without changing the meaning
16:40:10 <alise> ais523: hmm, please tell me that " acts like '' in intercal
16:40:21 <alise> so you can do "abc'xyz' to mean ((abc)xyz)
16:40:22 <ais523> alise: no, " and ' act the same but are differetn
16:40:23 <ais523> *different
16:40:24 <Vorpal> alise, iirc in Sweden they drive out a special train with a water tank to wash the results off, rather than driving a bloody train to the nearest station
16:40:30 <alise> because that would be awesome
16:40:39 <ais523> otherwise it'd be impossible to do grouping in array subscripts unambiguously
16:40:42 <alise> Vorpal: common occurrence in Sweden then :D
16:41:11 <alise> it's pretty popular in japan
16:41:22 <alise> [[A typical suicide may cause delays between one and a few hours[citation needed] on one or more lines. The costs to the surviving families by the railway companies' "delay fee" is often in the 100 million yen range.]]
16:41:53 <alise> Japan: Your relative killed themselves this morning. We sincerely apologise. The bill is £756,458.73.
16:41:54 <ais523> 1 yen is approximately equal to 1 US cent, isn't it?
16:41:56 <Vorpal> alise, it happens a few times / year. It does everywhere but you don't see a lot of it in news. Simply because it has been shown that such can inspire other mentally unstable people to "copy" the act.
16:42:00 <ais523> that's quite a lot of money
16:42:13 <alise> ais523: 0.8p
16:42:18 <alise> rounding up from 0.75(6...)
16:42:23 <ais523> a bit more than 1¢, then
16:42:34 <ais523> unless the pound has really fallen recently
16:42:45 <alise> $0.012, apparently
16:42:47 <alise> so 1.2 cents
16:43:02 <alise> (then it goes 005, but I'm not sure money that small even exists :-))
16:43:32 <Vorpal> alise, 1) that cost is absurd.... 2) I can't think how they could figure out who did it... it isn't like the body is recognisable after such an event as far as I understand it.
16:44:00 <alise> Vorpal: In Japan, EVERY CELL OF YOUR BODY HAS A MICROCHIP IN IT
16:44:06 <alise> (You need it for the latest phones)
16:44:09 <Vorpal> hah
16:44:35 <alise> i just love how crass that is :D japan is so perverse... in more ways than one
16:44:46 <alise> "Recently, railway companies have begun implementing measures to discourage and prevent train suicides. This includes use of blue LED lights in stations, which officials hope will calm potential jumpers."
16:44:48 <alise> what.
16:44:59 <Vorpal> alise, do they sue the lightning when it takes out the transformer station that powers the overhead wires?
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16:45:13 <alise> Vorpal: They sue the train driver for not stopping soon enough!
16:45:22 <ais523> alise: in the UK, IIRC Network Rail made a huge donation to the Samaritans so they could afford advertising at train stations to reduce the suicide rate
16:45:27 <ais523> on the basis that it saved them money overall
16:45:47 <Vorpal> hm
16:45:53 <Vorpal> ais523, did it help?
16:45:54 <alise> ais523: there are little default-formatting, white-background Times New Roman posters for the Samaritans on the Tyne Bridge
16:46:01 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't know
16:46:07 <alise> ais523: all I can think is, why would you want to jump into something as dirty as the Tyne?
16:46:21 <alise> it's practically opaque!
16:46:32 <ais523> reminds me a debate I saw recently about whether you should alcohol-swab someone's arm before giving them a lethal injection
16:46:39 <alise> haha what :-D
16:46:50 <Vorpal> alise, human waste or just "natural" mud or sand or such?
16:46:51 <ais523> they said that you should at least use a clean needle, in case the person giving the injection pricks themself by mistake
16:47:21 <Vorpal> ais523, wouldn't that be lethal too?
16:47:32 <alise> Vorpal: I'm not sure the /water/ in the Tyne is natural.
16:47:40 <ais523> Vorpal: no, lethal injections are a mix of drugs, you need at least two of them to actually die
16:47:42 <Vorpal> alise, ah,
16:47:50 <ais523> and they give them in sequence
16:47:54 <Vorpal> huh
16:47:54 <alise> It might be just excessive quantities of urine, filtered down by all the mud over the years.
16:47:58 <ais523> also, IIRC there are antidotes, they just don't use them in executions
16:47:59 <alise> ais523: untrue
16:47:59 <Vorpal> ais523, where do they use that?
16:48:01 <Vorpal> US?
16:48:01 <alise> ais523: you only need one
16:48:06 <ais523> alise: well, not the first one, anyway
16:48:06 <alise> they give the others because fuck you
16:48:10 <ais523> first one's just an anaesthetic
16:48:18 <ais523> second and third are redundant with each other, though
16:48:20 <ais523> and yes, US
16:48:21 <alise> ais523: in fact, iirc the extra drug makes it *way more painful*
16:48:35 <ais523> no death penalty in UK any more
16:48:36 <alise> and just one of them would do it with very high certainty, making the other one ridiculous
16:48:50 <alise> of course arguing about how to lethally inject people is stupid
16:48:53 <ais523> although it was only repealed about 10 years ago, when they noticed there were still some obscure offences that carried it
16:48:54 <alise> the real answer is not to do that :P
16:49:01 <Vorpal> ais523, he
16:49:01 <ais523> agreed
16:49:03 <Vorpal> heh*
16:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, High Treason was one of them, wasn't it?
16:49:17 <ais523> I think one of them was setting an entire Royal Navy shipyard on fire
16:49:23 <alise> :-D
16:49:23 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: probably, that's the one everyone remembers
16:49:27 <alise> new life goal
16:49:38 <ais523> kind-of difficult to do nowadays, given that the ships are no longer made of wood
16:49:38 <alise> i'm just trying to think of the mindset whoever does that
16:49:44 <alise> Okay... let's set FIRE to all this crap!
16:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I live right next to Rosyth!
16:49:54 <ais523> alise: presumably to prevent the ships being used in wartime
16:50:05 <alise> ais523: so if you spared one ship you're okay?
16:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> A dinghy!
16:50:33 <ais523> well, the fire would have spread from one ship to another, back when the law was created
16:50:45 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, some of the ships in Rosyth are nuclear subs.
16:51:03 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ultimate_bf_instruction_minimalization!
16:51:06 <alise> is this even a BF dialect any more?
16:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> So setting them on fire might end up irradiating Edinburgh, which would be A Bad Thing.
16:51:11 <alise> it has memory mapping!
16:51:16 <alise> that's Wrong with a capital W!
16:51:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Would it? Would it really?
16:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It *might*.
16:52:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Is uranium flammable?
16:52:07 <ais523> yes
16:52:13 <Vorpal> <alise> i'm just trying to think of the mindset whoever does that <- someone who works for a foreign country and wants to reduce naval power
16:52:14 <ais523> so are most metals
16:52:24 <ais523> except for the really inert ones like gold and copper
16:52:43 <Vorpal> ais523, can't you get gold to burn?
16:53:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I shall set fire to the reactors, then!
16:53:04 <Vorpal> ais523, surely with enough heat it should be possible to make it react with stuff
16:53:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I was referring to the Bad Thing part. :-)
16:53:05 <ais523> no, gold is more stable than gold oxide, which has IIRC never been formed in a lab
16:53:14 -!- antivigilante has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:53:18 <ais523> presumably if it was hot enough you might get a reversible reaction set up
16:53:23 <ais523> but that wouldn't be burning
16:54:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but *I* live in Edinburgh?
16:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> *!
16:54:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: True, I'd be more sure about Glasgow. :P
16:54:50 <Vorpal> ais523, hm things can burn in other atmospheres than oxygen
16:54:55 <Vorpal> ais523, no?
16:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> As an Edinburgher, that is my defined purpose in life.
16:55:05 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't think gold fluoride exists either
16:55:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Irradiating Glasgow?
16:55:11 <Vorpal> alise, aww
16:55:15 <Vorpal> err
16:55:17 <alise> Vorpal: aww
16:55:20 <Vorpal> ais523, ^
16:55:22 <Vorpal> wrong nick
16:55:29 <ais523> and it's the only anion more reactive than oxide
16:55:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, killing Glaswegians!
16:55:36 <alise> glkhjn
16:55:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But that's the Glaswegians' job!
16:55:50 <Vorpal> ais523, what about compounds? Or does that not count?
16:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It's second only to killing the English, which is one's prerogative as a Scot.
16:56:07 <ais523> Vorpal: it could count in theory, but they're less reactive than the pure elements, generally
16:56:08 <Vorpal> ais523, maybe aqua regia in gas form
16:56:18 <ais523> would that be burning, or dissolving?
16:56:26 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, no idea
16:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, that's... not how acidity works.
16:56:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh damn, it relies on that
16:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's gaseous, it's not dissolving.
16:56:41 <Vorpal> I didn't remember how it worked
16:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> It has to be in solution to dissolve things.
16:57:05 <Vorpal> ais523, FOOF, you can't go wrong with that. If that does nothing, I have no idea what would
16:57:38 <ais523> well, OK, that's pretty reactive
16:57:49 <ais523> but does it count as burning? I can't remember the actual definition by this point
16:57:57 <Vorpal> ais523, and it's oxidizing iirc
16:58:02 <alise> FOOF just goes bang, doesn't it? :P
16:58:08 <ais523> (even so, if it does react, I'd expect the gold to catalyse it into fluorine and oxygen rather than react itself)
16:58:30 <Vorpal> alise, it seems you can make it not go bang by being extremely careful. For a handful of things
16:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> You can stop it from going bang by storing it at cryogenic temperatures, for one thing.
16:59:00 <Vorpal> iirc it went "bang" with a sheet of platinum coated with something (forgot what)
16:59:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it still goes bang then.
16:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Not if it's not reacting?
16:59:36 <Vorpal> well indeed
16:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> *has no reactants present.
17:00:56 <Vorpal> yeah
17:01:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway you can't get it to react at non-cryogenic temperatures. Simply because it will already be gone then
17:01:29 <Vorpal> it isn't stable at room temperature iirc
17:02:42 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, what if you heat the gold up a _lot_. Thousands of kelvins.
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17:02:47 <Vorpal> and under high pressure
17:02:49 <Vorpal> what happens
17:03:14 <ais523> well, high pressure increases the chance that the reaction will go in the direction that leads towards a smaller number of molecules overall
17:03:26 <ais523> I doubt you'd get all the gold to react, though; maybe just a percentage depending on pressure
17:03:30 <Vorpal> okay what about low pressure?
17:03:47 <ais523> low pressure would make it more likely to go in the other direction, at high temperatures it would unreact any gold that had reacted
17:05:00 <Vorpal> ais523, why is gold so inert? After all, shouldn't it have one electron in the outermost shell. Unless I'm completely lost
17:05:19 <ais523> the spare electrons are in one of the inner shells, IIRC, or something like that
17:05:28 <Vorpal> oh
17:05:32 <Vorpal> ais523, that's cheating XD
17:05:39 <ais523> due to the way quantum energy levels work out
17:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if you dropped chemistry before university, you don't know how electron shells work.
17:30:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: they teach it at A-level here in the UK
17:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> And at AH in Scotland.
17:30:22 <ais523> as in, the full quantum definition, explaining why gold doesn't have any outer shell electrons, etc
17:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, *before the last year of school.
17:30:38 <ais523> that's better
17:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea *why*.
17:31:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I discovered that my school does an exercise which entails doing chromatography. On "DNA".
17:31:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It's almost too stupid to speak of.
17:31:28 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: because it ends up symmetrical
17:31:39 <ais523> also, there are reasons to do chromatography on DNA
17:32:02 <ais523> you replicate it a lot, split it at random points, tag each strand by the point it was split at (which can be done chemically without having to sort each strand individually)
17:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Not ones which would be sensibly taught in high school.
17:32:13 <ais523> then use chromatography to sort the strands by length
17:32:22 <ais523> that gives you the sequence
17:32:38 <ais523> even at GCSE, we were taught that that was possible, and had an idea of why it was done
17:32:40 <ais523> although not the details
17:32:46 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Smack-tux.svg
17:32:47 <alise> wat.
17:32:48 <ais523> nor did we do it ourselves, it would have been far too expensive
17:32:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly.
17:32:58 <alise> ais523: ha, don't talk to me about GCSE science!
17:33:13 <alise> they've made a new course, "Twenty First Century Science", and then *taken all the science out of it*
17:33:15 <ais523> alise: single, double, or triple?
17:33:19 <ais523> oh, what?
17:33:22 <alise> Forces are not covered in physics.
17:33:22 <ais523> this is news to me
17:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And they weren't using DNA; it was dyes. They were taking lies-to-children to a frankly immoral degree.
17:33:28 <alise> Half the book is ethical questions. ARE STEM CELLS RIGHT??
17:33:33 <alise> It is *ludicrously* bad.
17:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Then why did you *take* it?
17:33:43 <ais523> how many GCSEs does it count as, anyway?
17:33:47 <ais523> single science was bad enough as it is
17:33:47 <alise> Let me repeat: FORCES ARE NOT COVERED IN PHYSICS
17:33:50 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if you dropped chemistry before university, you don't know how electron shells work. <-- true
17:33:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I wasn't given a choice!
17:33:51 <Phantom_Hoover> One, I should think.
17:33:54 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: single science, at least, is compulsory here
17:33:56 <alise> ais523: Pretty sure it's one.
17:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Urgh...
17:34:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, calling it cheating was however an obvious joke, if that is what you replied to
17:34:12 <alise> I *would* switch, but it's kind of late now that I'm in year 11.
17:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (I took all 3 at all times possible.)
17:34:17 <ais523> double was what was given to even the worst-at-science children in my school, because single was so worthless
17:34:29 <ais523> triple exists, but wasn't done if you were going on to A-level as it duplicated some of the start of A-level
17:34:49 <alise> This is actually the only case so far of the unit being better at education than the school.
17:34:56 <ais523> heh
17:34:58 <alise> The unit were doing either double or triple AQA Science; I forget which.
17:35:04 <Vorpal> <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Smack-tux.svg <-- context?
17:35:07 <alise> QE are doing Twenty First Century Ethical Questions.
17:35:13 <ais523> incidentally, I think I have as many AS-levels than GCSEs
17:35:17 <ais523> *many...as
17:35:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't help but feel that doing biology without chemistry (or chemistry without physics, to a lesser degree) is stupid as hell.
17:35:27 <ais523> which is kind-of unusual
17:35:28 <alise> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Mandatory_Access_Control_Kernel logo
17:35:33 <Vorpal> heh
17:35:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the physics syllabus we were taught at my school was pretty bad, and wouldn't have helped with chemistry at all
17:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes...
17:36:03 <ais523> the chemistry and biology syllabi were pretty good, though
17:36:07 <alise> Personally, I'm just treating my GCSEs as my ticket into sixth form.
17:36:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm still waiting to be told how fucking magnets work.
17:36:17 <alise> Every course is *too damn stupid* to take seriously.
17:36:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, you'd need magnetic genitalia...
17:36:50 <ais523> magnets are actually rather tricky
17:36:58 <ais523> due to chemistry mostly being expressed in terms of electrostatics
17:37:00 <alise> So yeah, I would just like to confirm that no, nobody is imagining that the quality of education is going down because it sure as hell is.
17:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it involves Maxwell's equations and the understanding thereof.
17:37:14 <ais523> alise: I have objective evidence that the difficulty of A-level maths is going down, at least
17:37:24 <ais523> evidence: 1/6 of the syllabus was removed the year after I took it
17:37:27 <alise> ais523: :-D
17:37:29 <ais523> for the same amount of credit
17:37:40 <Phantom_Hoover> AH maths was... pretty easy.
17:37:41 <ais523> what was previously 5/6 of the syllabus was redistributed into 6/6
17:37:47 <alise> AH?
17:37:51 <ais523> and if you did the remaining 1/6, it counted as an /extra/ 1/6 of credit
17:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Andvanced Higher.
17:37:52 <alise> I've heard of AS but not AH.
17:37:55 <alise> Oh.
17:37:57 <ais523> thus making it easier to do A2
17:37:57 <Phantom_Hoover> *Advanced
17:38:06 <ais523> alise: Phantom_Hoover is scottish, they have a saner education system there than in England
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17:38:10 <alise> I love how they keep inventing new names for "Stupid People Course" and "Everyone Else Course".
17:38:39 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: in England, "Advanced" and "Higher" are names of two of the grading tiers you can ask for exams for
17:38:45 <ais523> (which is a stupid idea /anyway/...)
17:38:54 <ais523> why can't they just have one exam that goes all the way from A* to G?
17:38:55 <alise> IIRC, Twenty First Science calls them "Higher Applied" and "Higher".
17:38:58 <alise> Guess which one's Foundation?
17:39:00 <alise> "Higher Applied".
17:39:10 <alise> Does this make any sense? No!
17:39:10 <ais523> also, why can't they have a G grade still being meaningful?
17:39:25 <alise> ais523: how does anyone manage to get less than C on a GCSE course?
17:39:26 <ais523> nowadays, it's even more embarassing than a U because at least there's a plausible excuse for getting a U
17:39:28 <alise> you'd have to, like, try
17:39:39 <ais523> alise: well, U you can get by not answering any of the questions
17:39:54 <ais523> if you got exactly one right, I'm not sure where the grade would end up after it was adjusted for UMC
17:39:59 <ais523> probably around an E or F
17:40:03 <alise> ais523: Well, okay: how can anyone who actually ticks boxes for every question get less than a C?
17:40:11 <ais523> alise: multiple choice?
17:40:13 <alise> Even if you ticked randomly, you'd have a damn good chance :P
17:40:14 <ais523> by being really unlucky
17:40:17 <alise> ais523: I was speaking metaphorically.
17:40:18 <Phantom_Hoover> The SQA has a pretty huge number of courses as well...
17:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I think they actually have *3* idiot tiers.
17:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> On around the same level.
17:40:59 <alise> I wonder if I could murder whoever decided GCSE English Literature should be anything like GCSE English Literature.
17:41:14 <ais523> ISTR that at least one of the mandatory exams in England - the SATs, perhaps - had a bunch of really closely overlapping tiers
17:41:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Scotland doesn't separate them.
17:41:25 <ais523> so you had to figure out whether you were going for 7-9, 6-8, or 5-7
17:41:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Language and lit, you mean?
17:41:35 <Phantom_Hoover> English is literature and whatever the other one was.
17:41:36 <ais523> to get above a 9, you had to do a separate paper and also the 7-9 paper
17:41:38 <ais523> adding another tier
17:41:50 <ais523> alise: I don't actually have GCSE English Literature
17:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I also have no English qualifications whatsoever.
17:42:13 <alise> ais523: I think it's mandatory now.
17:42:16 <ais523> it was then too
17:42:19 <alise> If not, I am so fucking ON dropping that course.
17:42:24 <alise> ais523: xD
17:42:30 <alise> ais523: "I'm not doing English Lit... BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE."
17:42:31 <ais523> but the syllabus was so stupid that I refused to do any work in lessons
17:42:44 <alise> :D
17:42:54 <ais523> and then the school, presumably "accidentally", forgot to enter me for it for fear I'd ruin the statistics
17:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> My English class is sometimes so stupid it gives me a headache.
17:43:08 <alise> ais523: You are my new hero.
17:43:09 <ais523> after I'd already got a U in the mock SATs, through turning up but not writing anything out of protest
17:43:26 <ais523> an N looks a lot better on the stats than a U
17:43:31 <ais523> because there are loads of innocent explanations for one of those
17:43:39 <alise> I hadn't even considered that grades below, say, D existed.
17:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Like the time we were given "discussion points", i.e. "asking lots of ignorant and disinterested teenagers what their opinions on things were."
17:43:57 <ais523> that said, I now realise - I didn't at the time - that I could probably have passed it anyway despite not having a clue what the exam was even about, just because the pass marks were so low
17:44:01 <alise> <ais523> after I'd already got a U in the mock SATs, through turning up but not writing anything out of protest ;; did you just protest against everything? :D
17:44:09 <ais523> alise: not /everything/, but quite a lot
17:44:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Discourse on Hawking's comments on the beginning of the universe included "DIE DAWKINS DIE".
17:44:25 <ais523> I was in either other year's classes, or solitary confinement, for quite a lot of subjects
17:45:02 <alise> ais523: I skipped all the hassle and dropped out. But then the state decided they didn't much like that.
17:45:04 <ais523> I do have a B in the main English GCSE, though
17:45:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me that's a literal quote.
17:45:12 <ais523> alise: well, I liked other subjects
17:45:20 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it is indeed.
17:45:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You made video, yes? Post video.
17:45:36 <ais523> I have an A* in GCSE Systems and Control, which was an excellent and properly difficult GCSE that ceased to exist shortly after I took it because nobody was taking it
17:45:40 <ais523> presumably because the alternatives were so much easier
17:46:09 <ais523> also, I was within the top 5 grades in the country, which was probably 99.5% as I dropped a mark on the coursework
17:46:09 <alise> ais523: what's it about, in non-GCSE-subject-speak?
17:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it wasn't actually *said*, presumably because the teacher was intelligent enough to realise that asking us to actually speak about things would result in anarchy.
17:46:16 <alise> at least it doesn't end with "Studies"
17:46:24 <ais523> alise: electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, etc
17:46:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I said literal quote.
17:46:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, so it was written?
17:46:36 <alise> Right.
17:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It was written on a big piece of paper which was passed around for comments.
17:46:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Sure it wasn't, like, sarcastic?
17:46:52 <ais523> the coursework component was famously difficult
17:47:06 <ais523> and had people spending an entire year trying to construct something electronic (or if they really wanted, pneumatic)
17:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I asked the girl who wrote it and she seemed serious.
17:47:28 <alise> pneumatic computers
17:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I ended up writing "Iä! Iä! Cthulhu ftagn!"
17:48:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I can think of a few reasons.
17:48:13 <ais523> alise: nobody took the pneumatic option, probably because it was too hard to get parts and also stupidly complex
17:48:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: YOU ARE WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD
17:48:31 <ais523> also, pneumatics circuit diagram symbols are stupid
17:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, please design a microscale pneumatic transistor.
17:48:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Or, indeed, a microscale pneumatic *anything*.
17:49:43 <ais523> alise: incidentally, if you care, BlogNomic was won twice today
17:49:49 <ais523> and given how rare wins are, that's pretty spectacular
17:50:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's for future research. I am fine having gigantic computers.
17:50:34 <ais523> alise: there are relay-based computers still used in telephone exchanges
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17:50:47 <ais523> because they work and their failure modes are relatively easy to predict
17:50:52 <ais523> not quite the same, but still impressive
17:51:30 <alise> "I just looked at the timestamps and if I win I believe this is among the shortest BlogNomic Dynasties ever, if it’s not /the/ shortest: 32 minutes from Ascencion Address to DoV. =P"
17:51:31 <alise> amazing
17:51:38 <alise> ais523: you should have said it "was once twice in one hour today"
17:51:42 <alise> *said "
17:51:45 <alise> that's even more impressive
17:52:02 <ais523> not really, that's from AA to DoV which isn't a legit way to count
17:52:08 <ais523> "new dynasty won within an hour", perhaps
17:52:08 <alise> oh, true
17:52:14 <augur> hello hello
17:52:14 <alise> "Another 4chan favourite is Pedobear, a harmless-looking ursoid cartoon character who, despite his loveable appearance... you get the idea." --BBC News
17:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, did you even go near the GCSE computing curriculum?
17:52:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Um, I'm doing the ECDL course, which is a sixth form class in this high school/sixth form double-whammy institution. It's stupidly easy. Apparently after that I can do a GCSE-equivalent IT course.
17:53:02 <alise> Because I am doing very few GCSEs -- not by choice -- and it will help inflate that number.
17:53:13 <alise> I am very, very angry that they are called IT courses.
17:53:24 <alise> They *must* be renamed Microsoft Office qualifications, or I will burn down the building.
17:53:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you go anywhere near a programming language?
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17:53:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pfftahahahahahahaha!
17:53:57 <ais523> alise: at least they don't call it "computer science"
17:54:15 <ais523> IT can be roughly defined as "things you do with a computer that aren't computer-science-related"
17:54:20 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm not actually sure if that's a bat thing.
17:54:25 <Phantom_Hoover> *bad
17:54:27 <alise> ECDL is about *basic operation of Word, Excel, Access, PowerPoint, Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer and Outlook*, Phantom_Hoover.
17:54:30 <alise> That is a BAD THING.
17:54:41 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: major programming, beyond simple scripting, is probably not an appropriate topic for a course that's actually about IT
17:54:43 <alise> I do not have much better hopes for the GCSE-equivalent.
17:54:49 <ais523> alise: well, that's the stated purpose of ECDL, pretty much
17:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, have you seen a bunch of teenagers trying to code?
17:55:05 <ais523> the GCSE equivalent, at least when I took it, was much the same as that except with the names filed off
17:55:08 <Phantom_Hoover> IT IS HORRIBLE
17:55:29 <ais523> I remember getting furious with the teacher when they insisted I printed off every page of a spreadsheet both in standard and show-formula mode
17:55:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, and I hope to never.
17:55:38 <ais523> because every page was the same on showing formulae
17:55:48 <ais523> I don't think I realised at the time that that's what they were trying to check
17:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I shudder with the memories.
17:55:55 <alise> If I can at all help it, the first time I'll see someone else with a line of code will be at university.
17:56:06 <ais523> (also, the stupidity of trying to mark someone's spreadsheet ability with printouts is an entirely different topic...)
17:56:31 <alise> The IT tutor they got for me at the unit was a pretty cool guy. I spent most of the homework time replacing silly Excel spreadsheets with Logo programs.
17:56:32 <ais523> alise: if it's any help, I find that people who haven't programmed before but have a good maths background are the people who it's easiest to teach programming too
17:56:37 <ais523> (remember I teach first-time programming)
17:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you know how long it took the idiots in my class to write a simple program that was basically equivalent to "read stuff in, sum some of it, then print it" took?
17:56:43 <alise> Which, of course, was just replacing them with slightly-strange-Lisp programs.
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17:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> s/took//
17:56:48 <alise> So that was happymaking enough.
17:57:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: how many things? and what was summed and what wasn't?
17:57:12 <ais523> I want to try this as an INTERCAL oneliner for practice
17:57:14 <alise> ais523: Agreed, although I have no experience teaching first-time programming.
17:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I have repressed the memories quite thoroughly.
17:57:39 <ais523> the people who've taught themselves VB or something like that often fall into terrible habits, but write programs that work
17:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It had something to do with CDs.
17:58:00 <ais523> those are the people who you have to yell at a lot and teach the same thing incessantly to prevent them ending up on thedailywtf.com
17:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> The teacher being a complete idiot didn't help, either.
17:58:19 <ais523> there are also people who don't understand programming at all, pretty much
17:58:24 <ais523> even when you try to teach them
17:58:30 <ais523> ideas for dealing with them would be appreciated
17:58:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and the Higher curriculum states outright that Unicode is 16-bit.
17:58:58 <ais523> it's about 20.05-bit, isn't it?
17:59:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes
17:59:14 <ais523> which unfortunately doesn't fit neatly into most standard encodings
17:59:36 <ais523> probably you could encode it in 20 bits by moving some characters into the areas reserved for surrogates, on the basis that you don't need surrogates in such an encoding
17:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I have tried to tell the idiots this, but it doesn't appear to agree with what the Almighty SQA have decreed.
18:00:06 <ais523> looking at the Unicode character set, it does seem designed to be encoded via UTF-16 in particular, though, so it's not as silly as, say, claiming it's 8-bit
18:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> (Well, I didn't actually *take* Higher computing.)
18:00:22 <ais523> (also, in some langs like Java, it's literally 16-bit, but that's arguably a problem with the language)
18:00:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's definitely a problem with the language.
18:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It's hardly a Unicode character if you can't put an eighth of the codepoints into it
18:01:07 <ais523> the standard libraries support surrogates well enough
18:01:13 <ais523> but nobody bothers to test for them in their own code
18:01:23 <ais523> on the basis of how likely are you to find a Unicode character above 0xffff?
18:01:48 <ais523> thus, in practice, it's only the BMP that tends to work properly
18:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> That kind of defeats the entire point of Unicode, doesn't it?
18:03:02 <ais523> depends on what you think the entire point of Unicode is
18:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> To encode everything humanly possible?
18:03:16 <ais523> if it's just "show these international characters that are likely to come up, and I need more than 128 of them", it works just fine
18:03:24 <ais523> and that's the /real/ reason people use Unicode
18:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> We are talking about the people who encoded the schwa and the upside-down e in the pan-Nigerian alphabet differently.
18:03:44 <Vorpal> <alise> ais523: Agreed, although I have no experience teaching first-time programming. <-- that has to be painful.
18:03:49 <Vorpal> based on observation
18:03:52 <ais523> most fonts don't even contain characters outside the first 65536
18:04:04 <ais523> Vorpal: it depends, some people are much better than others
18:04:10 <Ilari> Unicode has 1 112 030 valid codepoints. Bit more than 2^20...
18:04:27 <Vorpal> ais523, well yes
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18:04:41 <ais523> Ilari: good to know
18:04:47 <ais523> presumably you're excluding surrogates from that?
18:05:02 <Ilari> Surrogates and those xFFFE's and xFFFF's.
18:05:04 <ais523> hmm, what if you exclude precombined characters like é that don't exist in the most general normal form?
18:05:16 <Vorpal> ais523, do you mean on the teacher or on the students?
18:05:17 <ais523> given that there's multiple ways to encode them
18:05:33 <ais523> ais523: both, but I was referring to the students
18:05:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, what about BOM?
18:05:47 <Ilari> BOM is valid character.
18:05:51 <Vorpal> ah
18:05:53 <Ilari> *codepoint
18:06:03 <ais523> Vorpal: besides, the difference is around 100000, 1 character won't make too much difference in that
18:06:20 <Ilari> The reason why FFFE isn't valid is that its the byteswap of BOM (and one wants to know which it is).
18:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Does using Mathematica as my calculator make me A Bad Person?
18:06:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well I had to endure such programming courses. Not that the teacher is bad, he is rather good. But the majority of the fellow students. Sigh
18:06:55 <Ilari> Actually, 63454...
18:07:42 <Vorpal> he seems do a good job even so. I know I could never manage teaching anyone who is not fairly accomplished already
18:08:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: maybe?
18:08:47 <Vorpal> bbiab
18:08:47 <alise> Vorpal: Hell, even in university I'm not going to enroll in any practical programming course.
18:08:51 <alise> That would just be painful.
18:08:55 <ais523> well, here I have the advantage that people have to actually qualify for the course somehow
18:08:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Just for getting quick numeric values
18:09:03 <alise> With actual CS, the morons will drop out soon enough. :P
18:09:13 <ais523> alise: they're normally compulsory for any even remotely related degree
18:09:36 <ais523> e.g. here at Birmingham, they have an actual-CS and a practical-programming course running simultaneously in the first year for computer scientists
18:09:43 <ais523> and I help to teach the practical side
18:09:48 <alise> BAH
18:10:39 <ais523> at least they're honest about which-is-which, sort of
18:10:45 <alise> I'm trying to think of an related joke at the expense of Oxford now and I can't; knowing someone who goes to Oxford, my duty is to disparage it at every available opportunity.
18:10:49 <ais523> (the practical side is called "Software Workshop", which is almost content-free)
18:11:05 <ais523> (as in, the name, not the course)
18:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, I think I can prove that the most general form of conservatism in a CA is undecidable.
18:11:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh joy.
18:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider two components separated by some ridiculously huge distance.
18:12:27 <alise> Main icon on the web page of Oxford's "Mathematics and Computer Science" course:
18:12:29 <alise> http://www.ox.ac.uk/images/hi_res/5768_Mathematics_and_Computer_Science.jpg
18:12:32 <alise> s/ $//
18:12:35 <alise> ULTIMATE FAIL
18:12:55 <alise> (for ais: It's a Playstation controller rendered in those "artistic" black-and-white dots.)
18:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The first will evolve such that one cell dies. The second is a TM which, if it halts, will give birth to a cell.
18:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure if that actually proves anything very interesting, though.
18:13:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Conservatism is only step-by-step, though.
18:13:43 <alise> No?
18:13:49 <Gregor> alise: The Playstation is a computer :P
18:13:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, step-by-step?
18:14:01 <alise> Gregor: And neither CS nor mathematics has anything to do with a computer! :P
18:14:08 <ais523> do they have a supercomputer made out of a Beowulf cluster of PS3s with non-upgraded firmware?
18:14:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That is, one generation to the next has to sustain the cell count. And each generation is computable.
18:14:19 <alise> ais523: even if they *did*, it's nothing to do with that course
18:14:46 <alise> Huh, the CS & Maths course has a higher successful applications rate than CS.
18:14:56 <alise> Although I guess the really stupid people don't bother applying for the former.
18:15:02 <alise> :P
18:15:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, that "proof" is completely pointless.
18:15:21 <alise> (I *must* come up with a disparaging joke, however much research it takes!)
18:15:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It totally is.
18:15:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The TM couldn't just kill a cell like that.
18:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It is indeed.
18:15:39 <Gregor> alise: People apply for CS with applications like "I like WARCRAFT so I wanna do CS"
18:15:39 <alise> That's the whole point.
18:15:47 <alise> Gregor: Yeah :P
18:16:01 <ais523> Gregor: here in the UK, you often get approved for courses by computer if your grades are good enough, as far as we can tell
18:16:03 <alise> Gregor: Although I can't imagine anyone writing literally that on an application to *Oxford* XD
18:16:14 <ais523> humans look at your cases in really competed courses, or for borderline students
18:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OK, consider:
18:16:22 <ais523> I'd imagine Oxford really does look at every application by hand, though
18:16:24 <Gregor> alise: Idonno, people are pretty stupid!
18:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> If we have a spaceship, it must have cells born at the front and die at the back.
18:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> This gap is causally separated.
18:17:22 <Phantom_Hoover> That's the general issue.
18:17:37 <alise> Gregor: "Dear kindly sirs, I wish you to be aware of the fact that I enjoy the game 'World of Warcraft' by Blizzard Entertainment, Inc.; accordingly, I wish to read Computer Science at your institution of learning. I believe my enjoyment of the world-wide networked, computerised recreational activity will increase my enjoyment of the course, leading to greater success. Sincerely, Albert Monogram III, Esq."
18:17:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So make it not causally separated? I dunno.
18:18:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Move cells around so they're in the right neighbourhood to kill them.
18:18:04 <alise> That's what I'd do.
18:18:09 <Gregor> "Albert Monogram III, Esq." is perhaps the greatest name ever.
18:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so basically swapping cells is the only operation.
18:18:50 <alise> <ais523> I'd imagine Oxford really does look at every application by hand, though ;; well, they probably have people just to discard all the junk they must get.
18:18:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Sure, I guess. :P
18:19:01 <ais523> alise: then that's someone else looking at them by hand
18:19:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: There's a bit more than that since you have the whole neighbourhood.
18:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, it could work...
18:19:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Each 3x3 block of cells could rearrange.
18:19:16 <ais523> but the way the UK admissions system works, you don't apply to Oxford unless you mean it as you can only apply to 4 different universities
18:19:25 <ais523> and also, can't apply to Oxford and Cambridge simultaneously
18:19:43 <ais523> so people who don't really know what they're doing tend to pick 4 universities with low standards in the hope that one will accept them
18:19:58 <ais523> wow, I'm being cynical today
18:20:14 * Phantom_Hoover → food
18:20:42 <alise> <ais523> and also, can't apply to Oxford and Cambridge simultaneously ;; haha, wow, really?
18:20:58 <ais523> AFAIR, although it was ages since I applied, now
18:21:23 <alise> that's great
18:21:28 <alise> ais523: err, wait
18:21:34 <alise> my friend applied to Cambridge but got rejected and he's in Oxford now
18:21:36 <alise> iirch
18:21:37 <alise> *iirc
18:21:39 <alise> how does that work, then?
18:21:58 <ais523> there's a second round, IIRC
18:22:07 <ais523> so it's not applying simultaneously
18:22:20 <ais523> I may be wrong, though, or it may have changed
18:25:53 <alise> ah
18:27:30 <alise> "Less than 2% of websites on Scandinavia's child porn internet filter is actually child porn" ;; what a shocker.
18:27:46 <alise> lawl, boingboing headline -> reddit headline :: "Only 1.7%" -> "Less than 2%"
18:27:54 <alise> we redditors can't handle decimals
18:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "Less than 2 percent" is more SHOCKING.
18:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "LESS THAN 2? THAT COULD BE 1.1!"
18:29:04 <alise> Less than 2%? That could be 0%!
18:29:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the kind of people thinking that would probably be more along the lines of "PEEDOS!!!!!!!! KILL THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
18:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I have it on unreliable hearsay that pædiatrics is now called child healthcare or somesuch.
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18:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, that virus that hit Iran was Israeli.
18:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure who to dislike more.
18:35:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUkt59vY1Q
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18:39:14 <Gregor> Less than 2%, that could be -100%
18:39:24 <alise> I was considering going negative, but my brain exploded.
18:39:35 <Gregor> That means it's 100% granny porn.
18:42:46 <alise> WHYYY
18:42:46 <fizzie> alise: For the Finnish blacklist, the guy who published (parts of) it got his site blacklisted, because "links to child porn == child porn"; also the list is secret. There's also no procedure for fixing any mistakes in the list, and the administrative court said being added on the list is not a "decision" and he has no right to complain. (Though recently the supreme administrative court said the administrative court actually has to handle his case. His site has
18:42:46 <fizzie> now been on the blacklist for about 2.5 years, so it's not exactly a quick process.)
18:42:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:43:06 <alise> fizzie: Oh yes, that; you've linked it a few times. Twice, maybe.
18:43:46 <alise> fizzie: lawl your country is imperfect
18:43:53 <fizzie> Sounds likely. Well, it's still going on. Though I think rather few ISPs actually implement the blocking any more, and some of those that do make it an optional "service".
18:48:49 <Ilari> And those that do... Don't most implement it via DNS?
18:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, what was the site?
18:49:57 <fizzie> Ilari: I'm not sure... I think several switched away from the DNS blocking system, to avoid blocking whole sites instead of just particular URLs.
18:50:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://lapsiporno.info/english-2008-02-15.html has the English summary.
18:50:36 <fizzie> Choosing "childpornography.info" as the domain name was perhaps a bit provocative.
18:51:20 <fizzie> As I understand it, there's quite a lot of gay porn on the list.
18:52:00 * Gregor randomly slides back over to this window.
18:52:04 <Gregor> What's this about gay porn now?
18:52:17 <fizzie> Gregor: Are you sure you don't have a highlight for that?
18:52:19 <Vorpal> XD
18:52:39 <Gregor> I don't have a highlight for it, I just SENSE it when it is near.
18:53:35 <Gregor> So, in short, Finland blocks gay porn?
18:53:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, you should use tubular bells in your next work btw. That and bagpipe.
18:54:07 <fizzie> "If you do a google search for "gay porn", the first four hits are censored as child porn even though the sites contain no illegal images! Many have questioned if the police has something against gay porn, and this is something they simply aren't answering at all."
18:54:08 <Gregor> Vorpal: ... yes.
18:54:10 <fizzie> It would appear so.
18:54:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, piano, tubular bells and bagpipe (Scottish I feel, Irish just isn't the same).
18:54:35 <Vorpal> should be interesting
18:54:38 <Vorpal> very interesting
18:54:47 <Gregor> fizzie: Haha! The US is more progressive than you! FINLAND FAIL
18:55:02 <pikhq> As much as I dislike exploitation of children, I really don't feel that child porn itself should be illegal.
18:55:23 <Gregor> pikhq: Put that quote on Facebook then try to get a job! 8-D
18:55:34 <Ilari> That CP blocking is just security theater...
18:55:44 <pikhq> Making it, sure. But just having illegal images seems a bit too... urgh.
18:55:51 <alise> pikhq: The argument is that it economically supports the production of child porn.
18:56:05 <alise> pikhq: Of course, this is mostly irrelevant; if the *production* is illegal, you can crack down on it whenever.
18:56:26 <alise> And really, the demand is so huge enough that it's like saying that people shouldn't buy meat because then ANIMALS WILL STOP BEING KILLED!
18:56:52 <pikhq> And I am absolutely appaled that nude images of teenagers (especially self-taken ones) are considered the same in the eyes of the law as nude images of 5 year olds.
18:57:20 <fizzie> pikhq: It's also illegal to have, say, files like that in the cache of your email client, after opening (and subsequent deleting) of a spam message.
18:57:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Which is stunningly retarded.
18:58:11 <pikhq> fizzie: That, BTW, is one big reason why I don't think possession should itself be illegal -- pretty much any Internet-connected computer could likely have some. Especially ones without ad blocking.
18:58:32 <pikhq> There's also the room for blackmail -- "I stuck child porn on your computer and I won't tell you where".
18:59:02 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and the punishment for it (in the US, at least) is far too harsh, just like for all sex offenses.
18:59:30 <alise> It also makes Freenet almost certainly illegal.
18:59:40 <alise> Running it, that is.
18:59:42 <pikhq> Quite.
18:59:44 <alise> Because you store child porn on your hard drive.
18:59:53 <alise> (No "if": child porn is like 90% of Freenet.)
19:00:21 <Gregor> OK
19:00:25 <Gregor> Time to blow up all governments.
19:00:28 <Gregor> We need a fresh start :P
19:00:57 <pikhq> Gregor: Let's create the Übermensch!
19:01:00 <pikhq> ... Oh wait.
19:01:49 <alise> Gregor: Indeed. May I propose a single people, united in a single nation, with a single leadership?
19:01:57 <Vorpal> time to put some competent people as part of the govts. Like experts in their fields. Before taking a decision they should be forced to let actual experts scrutinize the proposal.
19:02:10 <Gregor> alise: ANTICHRIST
19:02:12 <alise> <Vorpal> time to put some competent people as part of the govts. Like experts in their fields. Before taking a decision they should be forced to let actual experts scrutinize the proposal. ;; congratulations, you have discovered technocracy
19:02:20 <alise> Vorpal: New issue: whoops, your universities are suddenly corrupt as fuck!
19:02:22 <alise> How did that ever happen!
19:02:28 <alise> Gregor: Please just tell me you got that :<
19:02:44 <Gregor> alise: ANTI
19:02:46 <Gregor> alise: CHRIST
19:03:06 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, just chose to make a different reference :P
19:03:19 <Vorpal> alise, hm... I didn't say they should be allowed to make the decisions. Just actually go through and point out issues like "caches and spam will make every computer contain illegal stuff if you do this"
19:03:19 <alise> pikhq: We should clearly base the new nation on gay science.
19:03:22 <pikhq> alise: How's about we find a benevolent dictator. And then make him immortal.
19:03:26 <alise> HURR REFERENCE ORGY
19:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll be benevolent!
19:03:34 <Vorpal> alise, because most politicians certainly has no clue about that
19:03:59 <pikhq> Like, say. The Buddha. We shall make the Buddha dictator forever. :P
19:04:05 <alise> Vorpal: "Ah, yes, you cannot ban [abuse of academic system]. Because we say so." -- Profs who abuse academic system
19:04:16 <alise> pikhq: LAUGH DAMMIT LAUGH
19:04:19 <Vorpal> alise, um. what?
19:04:29 <pikhq> Hmm. Tibet actually tried something similar to that, with its reincarnating government officials.
19:04:31 <alise> Vorpal: Giving people power --> those people abuse that power.
19:04:38 <alise> Giving geniuses power --> [ ]
19:04:39 <Vorpal> hrrm
19:04:41 <alise> Fill in the blank.
19:04:53 <Vorpal> alise, ah indeed that is an issue
19:04:55 <Gregor> I'm still waiting for a country which specifies that its official language is prescribed by a particular non-government agency to get couped by language-redefinition.
19:05:04 <pikhq> alise: Geniuses abuse that power TO MAKE GIANT SPACE-TRAVELLING ROBOTS
19:05:18 <Vorpal> alise, the current system isn't working well at all either. What about having to provide a rationale
19:05:26 <pikhq> Gregor: I don't know of any that do that.
19:05:38 <Gregor> pikhq: Well, we speak English :P
19:05:45 <Vorpal> not sure that would be enough
19:05:56 <pikhq> Gregor: The USA does not have an official language.
19:06:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I suppose a case could be made that at least geniuses will abuse it in a slightly less stupid fashion.
19:06:04 <Gregor> pikhq: Exactly.
19:06:11 <Gregor> pikhq: The USA would not be the country in question :P
19:06:16 <pikhq> Ah, true.
19:06:19 <alise> <pikhq> alise: Geniuses abuse that power TO MAKE GIANT SPACE-TRAVELLING ROBOTS ;; ITT: Entire plot of Ed stories
19:06:37 <Gregor> pikhq: A language which declares that it has an official language, that the laws of the country are in that language, and that that language has a regulating body (read: most countries) are at risk.
19:06:41 <Gregor> Erm
19:06:45 <alise> <Gregor> I'm still waiting for a country which specifies that its official language is prescribed by a particular non-government agency to get couped by language-redefinition. ;; marry me
19:06:45 <Gregor> s/A language/A country/
19:07:01 <Gregor> NEVAR
19:07:02 <Gregor> NOT PEDO
19:07:07 <alise> Gregor: Does l'Académie française count?
19:07:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, only about france has a regulating body like that
19:07:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Many languages have regulating bodies, actually.
19:07:28 <alise> I mean, I assume it would be ruled that the legislature of France is written in the French language as defined by l'Académie française.
19:07:33 <alise> (Should that l' be capitalised?)
19:07:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, not with the same power as in France at least
19:07:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: Swedish is regulated by the Swedish Language Council, which has "semi-official status" but is not a government agency.
19:08:01 <alise> Gregor: Of course, it's not actually *law*, I imagine, so couping (TOTALLY A WORD) L'Académie française would have no real effect.
19:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> IDEA:
19:08:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed, and it is not perscriptive, but descriptive afaik?
19:08:41 <Gregor> "The council asserts control over the language through the publication of various books with recommendations ..." - Wikipedia
19:08:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, most I can remember seeing from that is "best practise" or such. No definite normative rules
19:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Take over France!
19:09:23 <alise> *prescriptive, Vorpal.
19:09:27 <pikhq> Gregor: l'Académie française can only recommend.
19:09:28 <alise> *practice
19:09:30 <Vorpal> alise, oops
19:09:42 <pikhq> It's prescriptive but not legally enforced.
19:09:54 <alise> Practise is the verb, practice is the noun. (Note: This is super, super anal)
19:09:55 <Gregor> "Legally enforced" is such a wuzzy issue.
19:09:57 <alise> SUPER SUPER ANAL!
19:10:23 <alise> l'Académie française has to be the most stuffy place in the world.
19:10:25 <pikhq> Gregor: They have absolutely no power over the actual language; the government is free to and sometimes *does* ignore their suggestions.
19:10:25 <Gregor> If the body is named in the law of a country in the context of that country's official and legal language, it's probably in a dangerous situation.
19:10:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So if l'Académie said that 'legal' and ill
19:10:27 <alise> Imagine how they talk to each other.
19:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover> *'illegal' were reversed.
19:10:51 <alise> "Did... did you just use a COLLOQUIALISM? SACREBLEU!" "Did... did you just say 'Sacrebleu'? DEAR GOD."
19:11:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Particularly with technical vocabulary; "email" is used instead of "courriel", for instance.
19:11:06 <Gregor> pikhq: OK, so it's not a good example then :P
19:11:33 <Gregor> But SO many countries have official languages, and SO many languages have regulating bodies, there must be one set up this way.
19:11:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, for the Swedish case I don't think anyone much cares about the council
19:11:43 <alise> pikhq: What's the non-e version of "courriel"?
19:11:55 <pikhq> alise: Dunno.
19:11:59 <alise> Courril :P
19:12:07 <pikhq> Gregor: Vatican City.
19:12:14 <alise> "As French culture has come under increasing pressure with the widespread availability of English media, the Académie has tried to prevent the Anglicization of the French language. For example, the Académie has recommended, with mixed success, that some loanwords from English (such as walkman, software and email) be avoided, in favour of words derived from French (baladeur, logiciel, and courriel respectively)."
19:12:21 <Gregor> pikhq: Oooooooh!
19:12:38 <alise> "My logiciel doesn't work! I'll send it to you by courriel. In the meantime, I'll listen to music on my baladeur."
19:12:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, it's a bit like "Svenska akademin", about the only thing they do these days is to decide who get the Nobel price in literature. The whole thing is absurd. Like pays for holding posts in it was specified way back and hasn't been upgraded iirc.
19:12:49 <alise> Gregor: Taking over Vatican City: MOST POINTLESS THING EVER
19:12:50 <Vorpal> stuff like that
19:12:58 <pikhq> Gregor: You could also do it with mainland China -- they define the semantics of the Chinese characters.
19:13:03 <Vorpal> oh wait, they make a dictionary too
19:13:04 <Gregor> alise: Pretty much
19:13:07 <Vorpal> that is about all
19:13:12 <alise> pikhq: <3
19:13:15 <pikhq> Gregor: *And ban ones they haven't defined.*
19:13:29 <Gregor> China would be a good prize X-P
19:14:01 <alise> Gregor: I propose we create new Vatican City legislation that demands that some Catholic sin must be committed every day.
19:14:13 <Gregor> You just need to change one character which is used to say that the relevant institute is the authority on language, to instead say that it's the authority on all laws and regulations.
19:14:19 <alise> Orgies, envyfests...
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19:14:36 <pikhq> Also Israel. The Academy of the Hebrew Language defines Hebrew.
19:14:42 <Gregor> Come now (no pun intended), it's time for the daily Holy See orgy!
19:14:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, if it was me I would make the law such that it depends on the version of the language in use when the legislation was written
19:15:08 <Gregor> Vorpal: Only in hindsight!
19:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, we take over Israel, then!
19:15:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: Only KNOWING my evil plan X-P
19:15:22 <alise> Gregor: SUFFER THE LITTLE CHILDREN ON TO ME
19:15:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's the British solution.
19:15:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Then we use its TOTALLY-AMBIGUOUS NUCLEAR CAPABILITY to take over everything else.
19:15:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, no. If I ever was put in a position to come up with a law about the language
19:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, GENIUS
19:15:58 <alise> Vorpal: Dude, are you really that bad at introspecting your previous mind-states?
19:16:00 <Vorpal> however it had not occurred to me to consider this before
19:16:02 <alise> You would *not* have thought of that beforehand.
19:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll tell the Iranians now!
19:16:32 <Vorpal> alise, well it seems obvious, should check the legislation into a dvcs of course
19:16:37 <Vorpal> same for the language
19:16:45 <Vorpal> and then you get that for free with some care
19:17:07 <Vorpal> (yes yes, that statement is absurd, intentionally so)
19:17:46 <alise> [[In 1778, the Académie attempted to compile a "historical dictionary" of the French language. The project was later abandoned, having failed to progress beyond the letter "A".]]
19:18:27 <Vorpal> hah
19:18:41 <alise> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE:
19:18:47 <Vorpal> oh no
19:18:58 <Phantom_Hoover> WE HAVE FINISHED AD!
19:19:03 <alise> [[In 1778, the Académie attempted to compile a "historical dictionary" of the French language. The project never progressed beyond the letter "A", but was declared the official version of the language. French died out three weeks later.]]
19:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=499
19:20:23 <pikhq> Hmm. The EU has official languages but doesn't define how one determines what those official languages are.
19:20:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, you don't love Smalltalk any more.
19:20:37 <pikhq> (that is, it says "French" is an official language but doesn't define "French")
19:20:50 <pikhq> This is apparently a common setup for official languages.
19:20:54 <coppro> veryy
19:22:22 <Phantom_Hoover> beryy
19:22:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm you can't define a language completely in itself I suspect
19:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> naryy
19:22:47 <coppro> crap, something is wrong with mah function but I doesn't know what :(
19:22:54 <pikhq> One could simply define the language and thereby subvert the semantics of things.
19:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, what seems to be the problem?
19:23:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, but you could do a more formal definition. :)
19:23:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, or rather you can define a language in itself. But then you could get different stuff out by starting with different initial sets on the "first parse"
19:23:59 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: I had to implement a deletion algorithm for a binary search tree. I think I got it (without looking at a reference, even) but I seem to be failing all the submission tests
19:24:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Define it in Latin, then.
19:24:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you define to syntax used to do the formal definition
19:24:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, and how do you define latin?
19:24:36 <pikhq> The official language of the Roman Empire, circa 0 AD.
19:24:36 <pikhq> >:D
19:24:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if you need to have Latin defined for you, you clearly aren't EDUCATED.
19:24:52 <coppro> looks like I need to come up with more evil test cases, which I can do but will take more work
19:25:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, I now define AD to be relative today. And "Roman Empire" to mean the country known as Sweden
19:25:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, get around that :P
19:25:40 <pikhq> OK, then. We start by importing the definition of Lojban.
19:25:57 <coppro> oh, and I have to do it with a tiny subset of scheme
19:28:18 <alise> <Vorpal> pikhq, hm you can't define a language completely in itself I suspect ;; French should be defined in Latin!
19:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, I'm not sure if the Latin we actually *use* is from 0 AD.
19:29:06 <alise> <Vorpal> pikhq, hm you can't define a language completely in itself I suspect ;; well, it's just finding a solution to L = interpret L's definition in L
19:29:09 <pikhq> Classic Latin has changed very little since then.
19:29:14 <alise> but yeah, that has infinite solutions, obvs
19:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, indeed...
19:29:38 <pikhq> Though the pronunciation used has changed rather notably.
19:29:41 <alise> pikhq: easy way to define Lojban --
19:29:43 <alise> kilogram style
19:29:45 <alise> build a computer
19:29:50 <alise> put the lojban parser on it
19:29:54 <alise> put a magic lojban-interpreter on it
19:29:57 <alise> define that to be lojban
19:29:59 <alise> :P
19:30:01 <pikhq> It helps that Classical Latin was the conservative, prestige language, rather than the vernacular.
19:30:01 <alise> can't dispute atoms!
19:31:15 <Vorpal> <alise> but yeah, that has infinite solutions, obvs <-- as I pointed out
19:31:16 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Parens&curid=3444&diff=18961&oldid=18954 Uh oh, zzo38 is turning everything into his crazy literate programming in MediaWiki templates thing.
19:31:19 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, what about pretentious people who say 'v' as 'w' and always harden 'c's?
19:31:26 <alise> Vorpal: you supposed some "initial language", which isn't true
19:31:31 <alise> as there's interpretations all the way down
19:31:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone stop him!
19:31:43 <alise> there are just infinite consistent solutions to the equations
19:32:03 <Vorpal> alise, "initial language" is just to avoid endless recursion. This could be L. But it could also be any other
19:32:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do people actually do that? :-P
19:32:08 <Vorpal> any of the infinite solutions
19:32:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, indeed.
19:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I do it.
19:32:24 <alise> Vorpal: The whole point of a self-definition is that it's "endless recursion", which is not necessarily an impossible thing in mathematics.
19:32:32 <alise> You're looking at this from a computational point of view, which is very silly.
19:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> 2 out of my 3 Latin teachers do it.
19:32:43 <Vorpal> alise, hm indeed
19:32:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wery silly, Cecil.
19:32:51 <alise> *Kekil.
19:33:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Is that how you pronounce "Very silly, Cecil"?
19:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes..
19:33:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Somehow I don't believe you.
19:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> My textbook appropriately indicates vowel lengths, as well.
19:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But that's actually necessary to distinguish some word endings.
19:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> "Puella" vs "puellā".
19:34:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, do you pronounce "Very silly, Cecil" as "Wery silly, Kekil" *in English*???
19:34:28 <alise> :P
19:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I meant in Latin, obviously.
19:34:48 <alise> BAH
19:35:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The last one is correct. 'V' as 'w' is bizarre.
19:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I would naturally pronounce "veni vidi vici" as "waynee, weedee, weekee", though.
19:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, really?
19:36:11 <pikhq> Yes, hard "c" is correct.
19:36:24 <pikhq> Oh, and consonantal v/u as /w/ is also correct.
19:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> But you just said 'V' as 'w' was bizarre...
19:37:19 <pikhq> I thought it was, and discovered I was wrong.
19:37:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Hah!
19:38:04 <pikhq> Also, m or n after a vowel and before a consonant makes the vowel nasal, rather than being a seperate consonant.
19:38:12 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> I would naturally pronounce "veni vidi vici" as "waynee, weedee, weekee", though. ;; That is the most ineffectual way of saying that ever.
19:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But the correct one!
19:38:36 <alise> Isn't the real sound actually in between v and w?
19:38:37 <alise> Maybe not.
19:38:41 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
19:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's /w/ in the IPA, i.e. exactly what you'd expect 'w' to be.
19:39:31 <pikhq> alise: Except that that phrase would've been said using Church Latin.
19:39:34 <alise> [x] rarely means English "x" in IPA, but okay :P
19:39:40 <pikhq> alise: Which sounds more like what you'd expect.
19:39:50 <alise> pikhq: *Ecclesiastical Latin, stupid uneducated filth!
19:40:16 <Gregor> JESUS LATIN
19:40:27 <pikhq> (namely, it's Latin with Italian phonology)
19:40:28 <alise> FILES
19:40:28 <alise> Note: these are the defaults as defined at compile time.
19:40:28 <alise> /build/buildd/fortune-mod-1.99.1/debian/tmp/usr/share/games/fortunes
19:40:28 <alise> Directory for innoffensive fortunes.
19:40:28 <alise> /build/buildd/fortune-mod-1.99.1/debian/tmp/usr/share/games/for‐
19:40:29 <alise> tunes/off
19:40:31 <alise> Directory for offensive fortunes.
19:40:33 <alise> FAIL
19:40:34 <Gregor> The Latin Jesus spoke before learning English (which, being good enough for Jesus, must be good enough for Texas)
19:41:02 <alise> Hmm, there are binary .dat files in there.
19:41:03 <alise> Me no likey.
19:41:10 <alise> The %-separated version is much nicer.
19:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC "magnus" should be pronounced "mangnus", but I don't think many people bother with that.
19:41:32 <alise> A hypothetical paradox:
19:41:32 <alise> What would happen in a battle between an Enterprise security team,
19:41:32 <alise> who always get killed soon after appearing, and a squad of Imperial
19:41:32 <alise> Stormtroopers, who can't hit the broad side of a planet?
19:41:32 <alise> -- Tom Galloway
19:41:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Curiously, it's at least *plausible* that Jesus would've known some Latin.
19:41:34 <alise> -- fortune
19:41:54 <alise> pikhq: For some value of "plausible" assuming that historical Jesus ever even existed. :P
19:42:30 <pikhq> alise: The existence of a man named "Jesus" born at 0AD is not in question. But, then, the existence of a man named "Jesus" born at 1990AD in Mexico is not in question.
19:42:48 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune foo
19:42:48 <alise> fortune:/home/ehird/foo not a fortune file or directory
19:42:54 <alise> That totally has the right format!
19:43:00 <alise> pikhq: You know what I meant by historical Jesus, foo. :P
19:43:08 <pikhq> Yes yes yes.
19:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, don't you have to give it the magic strings file?
19:43:21 <alise> (i.e. "a guy named Jesus born near 0 AD who did something or other related to a cult and the Jews didn't like him".)
19:43:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I DON'T WANT TO
19:43:33 <alise> I like the %-separated format perfectly well!
19:43:52 <alise> /build/buildd/fortune-mod-1.99.1/debian/tmp/usr/share/games/fortunes
19:43:52 <alise> Directory for innoffensive fortunes.
19:43:56 <alise> "innoffensive"
19:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Try giving it the Magic Strings File?
19:44:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, what's the magic strings file?
19:44:12 <oerjan> pikhq: um "veni vidi vici" is supposedly a julius caesar quote, hardly church latin
19:44:15 <alise> I assumed you meant .dat
19:44:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, IIRC you need to use the strings command to tell it where everything starts and ends.
19:45:02 <alise> Self-modifying "Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!". Discuss.
19:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, *strfile
19:46:16 <alise> Bah, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ultimate_bf_instruction_minimalization! is cheating; it has NOP.
19:46:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wut.
19:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> strfile -c '%' foo.dat foo
19:46:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it's a random access file.
19:46:37 <alise> LAME.
19:46:41 <alise> I want inefficient fortunes!
19:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Should give you the file Fortune wants.
19:46:55 <alise> Doesn't even spit out to stdout on default, sheesh.
19:47:04 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ strfile -c '%' /dev/stdout foo | cat -v
19:47:04 <alise> (nothin')
19:47:31 <alise> -x Note that each alphabetic character in the groups of lines is
19:47:31 <alise> rotated 13 positions in a simple caesar cypher. This option
19:47:31 <alise> causes the STR_ROTATED bit in the header str_flags field to be
19:47:31 <alise> set. Note that it does not rotate the strings--that operation
19:47:31 <alise> must be performed separately.
19:47:32 <alise> wat.
19:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you're getting the files the wrong way round.
19:47:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No I'm not.
19:48:04 <alise> I want it to spit out to stdout, instead of foo.dat.
19:48:06 <alise> Like *you said*.
19:48:18 <Phantom_Hoover> foo.dat is the %-separated file.
19:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> foo is the random-access table.
19:48:30 <alise> Not in the official directories it sure isn't.
19:48:54 <alise> ehird@dinky:/usr/share/games/fortunes$ head -1 definitions | cat -v
19:48:54 <alise> 17th Rule of Friendship:
19:48:55 <alise> ehird@dinky:/usr/share/games/fortunes$ head -1 definitions.dat | cat -v
19:48:55 <alise> ^@^@^@^B^@^@^DM-2^@^@^Hb^@^@^@
19:48:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, well.
19:49:02 <alise> Should I set the flag to randomise access to the fortunes in strfile?
19:49:09 <alise> -r Randomize access to the strings. Entries in the offset table
19:49:09 <alise> will be randomly ordered. This option causes the STR_RANDOM bit
19:49:09 <alise> in the header str_flags field to be set. (And really does ran‐
19:49:09 <alise> domize)
19:49:12 <alise> I guess so.
19:49:20 <oerjan> alise: innoffensive are words that are so offensive you cannot even say them in a (very shabby) inn
19:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think Fortune needs that
19:49:51 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ strfile -rc '%' foo /dev/stdout 2>/dev/null | fortune /dev/stdin
19:49:51 <alise> fortune:/dev/stdin not a fortune file or directory
19:49:51 <alise> fortune:/dev/stdin not a fortune file or directory
19:50:30 <alise> fortune foo.dat doesn't work either.
19:50:34 <alise> You LIED to me, Phantom_Hoover! LIED!
19:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You need to actually give it the database of stuff, I think.
19:50:47 <alise> wut
19:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It can't just be given a random-access table and work out where the fortunes are!
19:51:00 <alise> Why not
19:51:20 <Vorpal> I just considered how to say various words in a completely unambiguous way
19:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Because the table says *where the strings are in the file*, not where the file *actually is*.
19:52:00 <Vorpal> people -> "human inhabitants of the planets commonly referred to as Earth by a tiny percentage of the native intelligent life forms"
19:52:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume fortune takes the name of the file, adds ".dat", then picks a random entry from the table and reads that from the file you gave it
19:52:14 <Vorpal> probably not unambiguous
19:52:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I hate life.
19:52:41 <Vorpal> which shows it is rather tricky
19:52:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's hardly a complex system.
19:53:01 <alise> Vorpal: Erm, all intelligent life forms that call Earth anything call it Earth.
19:53:10 <alise> I very much doubt dolphins have a word for "Earth".
19:53:15 <Vorpal> alise, no. Swdes call it "Jorden"
19:53:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But it's a bit of a rubbish one!
19:53:19 <Vorpal> Chinese something else
19:53:20 <alise> Vorpal: Oh.
19:53:20 <Vorpal> probably
19:53:27 <alise> Vorpal: English still has a pretty large marketshare, dude.
19:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> foo has the %-separated entries for the file. foo.dat says where those entries start and end.
19:53:31 <alise> *market share,
19:53:37 <Vorpal> alise, hm, not as first language
19:53:37 <alise> Hardly a tiny percentage.
19:53:40 <Vorpal> as second language yes
19:53:46 <alise> Vorpal: Even as a first language.
19:53:50 <alise> #
19:53:54 <alise> s/that line/oblivion/
19:54:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: BAH
19:54:03 <Vorpal> alise, iirc there are more people speaking Chinese as first language. And Spanish too
19:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how would *you* do it, then.
19:54:17 <oerjan> dolphins would probably call it something meaning "Ocean" instead
19:54:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I just wanted to use fortune to display ~pithy quotes~ on my hypothetical website to show I'm cool and Unixy!
19:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> WITHOUT scanning through the file each time you call fortune.
19:54:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, or something completely different
19:54:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's great, but there is not a Chinese language.
19:54:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'd probably just scan through the file each time you call fortune.
19:54:35 <alise> They're not *huge* or anything.
19:54:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: There is a Chinese language family.
19:54:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, sigh whatever
19:55:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, I just go on the official statistics here. Go fix them in that case.
19:55:02 <pikhq> Much like there is not a Romantic language, but a Romantic language family.
19:55:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: The official statistics are about on par with Japan's WWII claim that Korean was a dialect of Japanese.
19:55:49 <Vorpal> mhm
19:56:06 <pikhq> Or their claim that Okinawan is a dialect of Japanese.
19:56:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
19:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, vs. the sensible solution of simply *caching where the entries start and end*.
19:56:27 <pikhq> Okinawan is a Japonic language spoken in Okinawa.
19:56:27 <alise> Vorpal: are you basically dismissing pikhq's perfectly valid fact as irrelevant because most people believe it?
19:56:32 <alise> `addquote <Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
19:56:35 <Vorpal> alise, no.
19:56:46 <Vorpal> alise, um how is that funny?
19:56:50 <HackEgo> 231|<Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
19:56:56 <alise> Vorpal: It's funny because you're an idiot and can't use Google.
19:57:01 <oerjan> pikhq: *romance
19:57:11 <alise> Gregor: Please defuse any revert wars before they happen. You can add a quote about my poor ancestry if you so desire.
19:57:13 <Vorpal> alise, why would I google. ais wouldn't either
19:57:20 <alise> ais wouldn't ask a stupid question, either
19:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The Romantic languages are French.
19:57:26 <pikhq> In Japanese, the language is "okinawago", in Okinawan, it's "uchinaaguchi".
19:57:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's a waste of time and a pain for creators of fortune files.
19:57:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So BAH
19:58:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, there's still no reason why it has to be a binary format.
19:58:07 * Vorpal refuses to feed the trolls :P
19:58:09 <Vorpal> bbl
19:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, *it is a tiny command which runs almost instantly*.
19:58:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, there's still no reason why it has to be a binary format.
19:58:42 <Phantom_Hoover> There's no reason for it to be otherwise
19:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Humans don't need to read it.
19:58:50 <alise> plain text files are the official unix way
19:58:58 <alise> for everything that can possibly be plain text
19:59:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: But saying "Chinese language" is a sign of complete ignorance.
19:59:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is so pointless I'm not even going to start.
19:59:41 <pikhq> Up there with thinking there's an African language.
19:59:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The .dat file simply says where the strings start. It has literally no other information.
20:00:13 <pikhq> (hint for morons: Afrikaans is only spoken in South Africa, and is not the sole language, but just a lingua franca)
20:00:36 <oerjan> pikhq: at least okinawan is in the same language family, isn't it
20:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, honestly, how can they run a country with no common language?
20:00:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 8 bytes of decimal digits, followed by newlines.
20:01:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fseek to a random number in the file size * 9. Read 8 digits. atoi. fseek in text file. Print.
20:01:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: What, China?
20:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, no, Africa!
20:01:33 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, honestly, how can they run a country with no common language? ;; Swizzterland!
20:01:35 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: *sigh*
20:01:44 <alise> pikhq: I say, I say, that's a joke, son.
20:01:50 <alise> (Phantom_Hoover)
20:01:55 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, it is in the same language family.
20:02:03 <alise> Switzerland: The only country whose name is in Latin for the sole reason that nobody in Switzerland speaks Latin.
20:02:19 <oerjan> unlike korean.
20:02:24 <alise> You see, if it was in German, French, Italian or Romansh, which people actually speak in Switzerland, then everyone else in Switzerland would complain.
20:02:29 <pikhq> oerjan: On the Ryūkyūan branch rather than the Japanese branch, though.
20:02:34 <alise> So they picked a language that nobody speaks. Like UTC's impossible acronym!
20:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> UTC?
20:02:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Universal Time Coordinated"
20:02:59 <alise> Or, in French,
20:03:06 <alise> "Universel Temps Coordonné".
20:03:07 <pikhq> oerjan: Also, it is believed by some that Korean and Japanese are distantly related -- as members of the Altaic language family. This, though, is controversial.
20:03:12 <alise> The actual name in English: "Coordinated Universal Time"
20:03:18 <alise> The actual name in French: "Temps Universel Coordonné"
20:03:31 <alise> The solution: Instead of CUT or TUC, use UTC, which expands correctly in *neither* language.
20:04:24 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Colambda zzo has managed to make Unlambda imperative.
20:04:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not know what to say..
20:04:52 -!- wareya_ has joined.
20:05:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: About Colambda? :)
20:05:14 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, and Okinawan & Japanese are about as close as German and English.
20:05:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, indeed
20:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have no idea about zzo whatsoever.
20:08:01 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:09:00 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/RegexPL
20:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's /// but without the elegance.
20:10:04 <alise> lawl
20:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, incidentally, how goes the graph-based language?
20:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> How long will it be until we rewrite the article on the wire-crossing problem to reflect the fact that it's so poorly defined as to be pointless.
20:14:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: about 36.4 eons
20:16:21 <alise> oerjan: but eon 8 ended the world!
20:16:29 <alise> (^ Can you remember minor internet scares from years ago? No? GTFO)
20:16:55 <oerjan> no i'm too old to remember such things. YKGOML!
20:18:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, so we shall suffer from people speculating on a question that has never been meaningful forever?
20:21:57 <oerjan> ...when did you last see much speculation on it, really...
20:22:04 <oerjan> (that was new)
20:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose you are correct!
20:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps this is the cause of the recent decline in graph-based esolangs!
20:22:49 <alise> can someone kindly tell zzo38 not to edit pages on the wiki just to add little file headers for his crazy literate programming via MediaWiki templates system?
20:23:24 <Phantom_Hoover> A graph-based esolang in which only planar graphs are allowed would be rather cool, though.
20:23:40 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Parens&diff=prev&oldid=18961
20:23:41 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=UBFIM_interpreter&diff=prev&oldid=18778
20:24:04 <oerjan> alise: he _clearly_ invited you to discuss the change on the Talk:Parens page
20:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there an algorithm for determining if a given graph is nonplanar, though? IIRC there's a longstanding question over the matter.
20:24:27 <alise> oerjan: well, yes, but knowing zzo38 that'd only apply to [[Parens]], not [[UBFIM interpreter]]
20:24:38 <alise> oerjan: also, I have no idea about how to go about convincing zzo38 of something
20:25:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, threats?
20:26:05 <alise> xD
20:26:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Is he particularly bloody-minded, or what?
20:26:20 <alise> Well, I've never seen him change his mind.
20:27:45 <Vorpal> <alise> (^ Can you remember minor internet scares from years ago? No? GTFO) <-- can you remember the y2k scare?
20:27:58 <Vorpal> that one was major though
20:28:11 <alise> Maybe. Dunno if I was paying attention to that stuff when I was 4-5.
20:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Y2038!
20:28:36 <Vorpal> alise, my point exactly :P
20:28:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes there is an algorithm, it is supposedly polynomially decidable
20:29:19 <oerjan> something about checking if K_3,3 or K_5 graphs are minors
20:31:11 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planar_graph
20:32:17 <oerjan> "In practice, it is difficult to use Kuratowski's criterion to quickly decide whether a given graph is planar. However, there exist fast algorithms for this problem: for a graph with n vertices, it is possible to determine in time O(n) (linear time) whether the graph may be planar or not (see planarity testing)."
20:34:47 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarity_testing
21:12:21 <alise> "Nasty is a program that helps you to recover the passphrase of your PGP or GPG-key in case you forget or lost it. It is mostly a proof-of-concept: with a different implementation this program could be at least 100x faster."
21:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone tell me the most absurdly inappropriate use of Comic Sans you've ever seen!
21:12:30 <alise> http://www.vanheusden.com/nasty/
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21:30:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: By a wide, wide margin: http://www.unix.org/
21:30:42 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, ...
21:31:16 <Gregor> Isn't that just outstanding?
21:31:24 <Phantom_Hoover> My current example is a request for information on a murder, but that comes a close second.
21:31:37 <alise_> The Brainfucked Lone Wolf is a space combat game completely written by hand in brainfuck (i.e. no translating tool or the like was used).
21:31:37 <alise_> http://www.49-6-dev.net/tblwen.htm
21:32:12 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Really? The fact that, aside from how absurd it is, Comic Sans is a MICROSOFT font doesn't push mine over the top?
21:32:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, OK, I'll mention that when stating its history.
21:33:11 <Gregor> What are you writing that you need this information? :P
21:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I have to write an English essay.
21:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I picked "Comic Sans: A Sad Indictment of Our Times" as a subject.
21:33:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: See also the top-left of http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/MyCubicle.jpg
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21:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, nice to see you hold an appropriate appreciation for the diæresis.
21:34:40 <Gregor> :P
21:35:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: In fact, while you're also also seeing that, see also http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13387&start=0#p248512
21:35:39 <Gregor> An extremely epic response to that.
21:35:55 -!- alise_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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21:37:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, ...I cannot write a better essay.
21:37:59 <Gregor> SORRY
21:38:08 <Gregor> To ruin your day and all X-P
21:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Meh.
21:38:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll palm it off as my own work!
21:38:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Plagiarism FTW!
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21:39:07 <Gregor> Isn't it funny how I'm a font of Comic-Sans-related information? X-P
21:41:09 <Phantom_Hoover> So what do I say to people who say it's more readable.
21:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> There are studies and such that support that assertion.
21:41:37 <Gregor> How about "...?!?!?!?!?!"
21:42:03 <Gregor> Or, you suggest they use http://codu.org/gregor_handwriting.ttf
21:42:03 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Say that perhaps it is more readable than Arial or Times New Roman with close-together lines, bad use of whitespace, and other typographical mishaps.
21:42:11 <alise_> But it is certainly worse than a well-typeset work.
21:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, of course.
21:42:33 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm typesetting this in LyX, BtW.)
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21:42:59 <Gregor> Pfff
21:43:07 <Gregor> LyX is LaTeX for pussies.
21:43:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It is.
21:43:10 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: LaTeX, bitch.
21:43:13 <alise_> Memoir class.
21:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> But I am a pussy.
21:43:15 <Gregor> Real men vim their LaTeX.
21:43:16 <alise_> Use it or die.
21:43:19 <alise_> Gregor: No.
21:43:25 <alise_> AUCTeX!
21:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I _do not have time_ to learn LaTeX.
21:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Nor to pick up the basics.
21:43:41 <Gregor> alise_: (Guesses that's an IDE) IDEs are for pussies.
21:43:42 <alise_> That's okay because you only have to know like 5 commands to write a paper on Comic Sans.
21:43:52 <alise_> Gregor: No.
21:43:59 <alise_> Gregor: It's an Emacs mode for LaTeX.
21:44:00 <alise_> Gregor: The best.
21:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought LyX was basically an IDE for LaTeX?
21:44:06 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
21:44:10 <Gregor> alise_: Emacs is just vim for pussies.
21:44:14 <alise_> It spits out its own weird format that is LaTeX written entirely in LyX library commands.
21:44:19 <alise_> Which is fucked up.
21:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
21:44:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Okay, I shall commit this sin.
21:44:46 <alise_> Gregor: vim is just an editor designed with ergonomics and HCI in mind for pussies.
21:44:47 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: An IDE for LaTeX is like an IDE for C++; you still write LaTeX, it just gives you some help. LyX is a WYSIWYG editor for LaTeX. So, y'know, difference *shrugs*
21:44:58 <alise_> Gregor: OH SNAP NOW NONE OF US CAN RETORT
21:45:47 <Gregor> I'm trying to think of a sentence ending in "for pussies" but utilizing the dual meaning to change the topic, but I can't.
21:45:56 <Gregor> Triple meaning, really.
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21:49:48 <oerjan> Gregor: lolcode is for pussies
21:49:58 <Gregor> *clapclap*
21:50:33 <alise__> pussies are for pussies
21:50:54 <coppro> pussies are for dicks
21:51:01 <coppro> (couldn't resist)
21:51:20 <Gregor> POOPPY
21:51:24 -!- alise__ has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more suited discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D?.
21:51:38 -!- alise__ has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more wealthy discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D?.
21:51:55 <alise__> <coppro> pussies are for dicks ;; HOW DO YOU KNOW I WASN'T MAKING A LESBIAN JOKE
21:52:01 <alise__> (I was actually just trying to set that one up.)
21:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> [[In July 2010, Ascender Corp introduced new versions titled Comic Sans 2010. This included two new fonts: Italic and Bold Italic. The Comic Sans 2010 fonts were designed by Terrance Weinzierl and Steve Matteson and include extensive OpenType typographic features.[2]]] KILL ME NOW
21:52:28 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Yes that thing!
21:52:32 <alise__> I mentioned that earlier. <3
21:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> God why do I have to be so scrupulously accurate even with this?
21:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I _just looked up Microsoft Bob_ to make sure I was using the correct term for it
21:56:33 <Sgeo> Oot, italicized comic sans
21:56:39 <Sgeo> <3
21:56:47 <Sgeo> ^^^the above is not to be taken seriously
21:56:57 * Sgeo still goes into hiding
21:59:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, with wordart style shadow!
21:59:27 <Vorpal> oh god, what sort of typographical monster did I just create
22:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember when WordArt was the height of graphical design in our school.
22:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> *my
22:02:23 <Vorpal> ah yes
22:04:50 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:04:55 <impomatic> Hi :-)
22:07:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, I'm not a True Nerd if I don't use LaTeX?
22:07:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:08:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: if you're an ultra-nerd you _might_ use plain tex instead
22:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought only zzo did that...
22:08:22 <alise__> [[Please, spam pages, such as Payday Loans, are not welcome here. The purpose of this wiki is not for advertising companies, but rather for discussing esoteric programming languages. If you make similarly unconstructive contributions in future, you may be blocked. --ais523 20:58, 30 September 2010 (UTC)]]
22:08:22 <Vorpal> he does
22:08:24 <alise__> how understanding...
22:08:37 <alise__> Vorpal: we know he does
22:08:40 <alise__> we don't know if only he does
22:08:42 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: no, at least one other does.
22:08:46 <alise__> Knuth, for instance
22:08:48 <alise__> and one guy whose site i forget
22:08:52 <Vorpal> hm
22:08:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Knuth is to be expected.
22:09:00 <Vorpal> I guess Knuth can be excused
22:09:03 <Phantom_Hoover> He's freaking Knuth, after all.
22:09:07 <alise__> excused, there's nothing wrong with it
22:09:15 <Vorpal> well okay
22:09:15 <alise__> it's just crazy to not use latex when you're doing exactly what latex does :)
22:09:20 <Vorpal> indeed
22:09:26 <alise__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/CornstarchCymatics_cc.jpg aieeee
22:09:43 <Vorpal> alise__, thus excused from the crazyness. Because he designed it and thus knows it well
22:09:52 <Vorpal> probably better than he knows LaTeX
22:10:02 <Vorpal> while the guy who created LaTeX probaly will use it
22:10:15 <impomatic> Did someone suggest a cool URL to me a couple of weeks ago for a new programming games site?
22:10:18 <Vorpal> <alise__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/CornstarchCymatics_cc.jpg aieeee <-- what is it?
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22:10:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Lamport
22:11:06 <alise__> impomatic: dunno
22:11:13 <Vorpal> alise__, what is it!?
22:11:14 <alise__> Vorpal: cornstarch/water mix (oobleck) with a sine wave
22:11:17 <alise__> applied to it
22:11:23 <Vorpal> ah
22:11:24 <alise__> producing OH GOD IT'S SCARY
22:11:24 <Vorpal> alise__, cool!
22:11:32 <alise__> IT'S FREAKING SCARY
22:11:33 <alise__> UGH
22:11:36 <alise__> just imagine touching it
22:11:45 <Vorpal> alise__, I assume the effect would vary depending on the shape of the container?
22:11:50 <alise__> guess so
22:11:53 <alise__> i've mucked around with oobleck before and it's fun except
22:11:56 <Vorpal> due to getting different standing waves and such
22:11:57 <alise__> if you leave it on your hands
22:11:59 <alise__> it solidifies
22:12:01 <alise__> which is just great
22:12:12 <Vorpal> alise__, is it?
22:12:42 <oerjan> "A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable."
22:12:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, XD
22:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, cornstarch suspension.
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22:13:08 <alise__> <Vorpal> alise__, is it?
22:13:11 <alise__> no, it's freaky
22:13:15 <alise__> it stops going very liquidy after a while
22:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> It's freaky in an awesome way.
22:13:32 <alise__> i mean on your hands
22:13:34 <alise__> it's freaky in a bad way
22:13:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Ferrofluid is similarly awesome.
22:13:35 <alise__> after a while
22:13:40 <Vorpal> alise__, ah
22:13:43 <alise__> ferrofluid is amazing
22:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, you mean that dry crusty stuff.
22:13:48 <Vorpal> alise__, dries quickly?
22:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> That's horrible.
22:13:52 <alise__> Vorpal: not quickly
22:13:54 <alise__> but in a few minutes
22:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Same with mud.
22:13:56 <alise__> it stops going liquidy
22:13:56 <Vorpal> ah
22:14:03 <alise__> Vorpal: before that, if you hit it it resists
22:14:06 <alise__> but if you sink your hands in
22:14:07 <alise__> it lets you through
22:14:12 <alise__> non-newtonian fluids ftw
22:14:20 <Vorpal> alise__, ah yeah the wonders of non-newtonian fluids
22:14:22 <Vorpal> btw
22:14:22 <alise__> fun, but gets boring quickly
22:14:50 <alise__> ketchup is non-newtonian, how crazy is that?!
22:14:52 <alise__> custard too
22:14:55 <alise__> and *blood*
22:14:56 <alise__> and shampoo
22:14:57 <alise__> and paint
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22:15:19 <Vorpal> alise__, I seem to have had a case of "synchronicity" with regards to the phrase "Non-Newtonian fluid" the last few weeks. Seen it in various contexts. More more than normal.
22:15:22 <alise__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid#Summary
22:15:23 <Vorpal> oh well, such things happen
22:15:30 <Vorpal> always a bit jarring though
22:15:31 <alise__> Vorpal: baader-meinhof, probably
22:15:36 <alise__> you see it once, your brain starts thinking about it
22:15:44 <alise__> pays attention to "non-newtonian fluid" more than it otherwise would
22:15:47 <alise__> makes you think it's more common
22:15:58 <alise__> ofc, it may have also gained attention somewhere and rippled through the internet
22:16:01 <Vorpal> alise__, I actually seen the words several times before the last few weeks, just not as often
22:16:02 <alise__> hard to detect these things
22:16:18 <Vorpal> alise__, or just pure chance
22:16:20 <Vorpal> it could be that too
22:16:34 <alise__> indeed.
22:18:53 <Vorpal> alise__, did I tell you about the SSID/encryption coincidence?
22:19:02 <Vorpal> alise__, I don't remember if you was in the channel back then
22:19:18 <alise__> No.
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22:19:21 <alise__> I'm sure it's enthralling.
22:20:23 <Vorpal> alise__, okay. Do you know about encfs?
22:20:46 <Vorpal> alise__, fuse thingy, encrypts files, not a volume
22:20:51 <Vorpal> including encrypting filenames
22:20:53 <alise__> Go on.
22:21:35 <Vorpal> alise__, well I use a random SSID for my wlan. [0-9A-Za-z_-]+ basically. It happened I set up an encrypted encfs volume. I looked at the folder where it stored the encrypted files. With Encrypted file names
22:21:48 <Vorpal> alise__, one of the filenames matched my SSID for the first 11 chars
22:21:57 <alise__> A whole ELEVEN CHARS!
22:21:59 <Vorpal> alise__, that seems extremely unlikely
22:22:08 <Vorpal> alise__, yes but look at the phase space
22:22:11 <Vorpal> it is unlikely
22:22:20 <Vorpal> alise__, the filenames are base64 as far as I can tell
22:22:23 <Vorpal> so not a small range
22:22:26 <alise__> And as we all know, anything below a certain probability is impossible.
22:22:33 <Vorpal> no
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22:22:57 <Vorpal> alise__, just rather improbable. Had it been hex for both I wouldn't have been surprised. But the range is a lot larger
22:23:12 <Vorpal> alise__, and you don't need to try to troll me :P
22:23:17 <alise__> That's unbareable.
22:23:21 -!- alise__ has changed nick to alise.
22:24:08 <Vorpal> alise, ais found it rather unlikely iirc when I mentioned it (he was here then)
22:24:16 <alise> Of course it's unlikely.
22:24:21 <Vorpal> alise, indeed
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22:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, so why those sarcastic remarks :P
22:25:19 <alise> That's just how I rôle.
22:25:28 <Vorpal> It isn't often you run into such coincidences. Just because it is bound to happen sooner or later doesn't mean you shouldn't marvel at it when it does.
22:26:00 <Vorpal> alise, whats with the ^ ?
22:27:31 <nooga> hi
22:28:24 <alise> Vorpal: It's correct.
22:28:31 <alise> Like café.
22:28:44 <Vorpal> alise, hm
22:29:07 <alise> Although rôle is (much) more obscure than café is.
22:29:20 <alise> It was a pun on "That's just how I roll", so I decided to make it as silly as possible.
22:29:59 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. Took a few seconds to figure out (due to the phrase you just mentioned coming to mind)
22:30:14 <alise> Continuing:
22:30:15 <alise> <alise__> That's unbareable.
22:30:30 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't notice that one
22:30:38 <Vorpal> alise, I read it as "unbearable"
22:30:46 * Vorpal googles "unbareable"
22:31:16 <Vorpal> No definitions were found for unbareable. and yet "About 20,200 results (0.14 seconds) "
22:31:18 <Vorpal> oh well
22:31:28 <Vorpal> a lot of typos it seems
22:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> OEM: what does it stand for?
22:33:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, context? Computers?
22:33:32 <Vorpal> if so:
22:33:42 <Vorpal> Original Equipment Manufacture
22:33:51 <Vorpal> Manufacturer*
22:33:52 <Vorpal> even
22:34:00 <Phantom_Hoover> So in the context of, say, Windows 95?
22:34:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "Original Equipment Manufacturer"
22:34:20 <Vorpal> modulo typos
22:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And this indicates?
22:34:50 <Sgeo> That that copy of Windows is for OEMs
22:34:51 <Phantom_Hoover> It's made by someone other than Microsoft?
22:34:55 <Vorpal> I don't remember, selling conditions
22:34:57 <Vorpal> google
22:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Errm...
22:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so it's to be packaged with hardware made by other companies?
22:35:27 <Vorpal> seems about right
22:35:37 <Sgeo> Preinstalled Windows, basically
22:35:38 <Sgeo> iirc
22:38:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pretty much
22:38:55 <alise> Dell installs OEM Windows 95 on their computers
22:41:20 <Vorpal> night →
22:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal's notation is innately inferior to mine.
22:42:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's actually oklopol's notation, bastardising the true minus-greater-than sequence into a Unicode whore.
22:42:22 <alise> But -> is the direction of you walking out of the channel.
22:42:27 <alise> You can't walk to sleep. Sleep isn't a place.
22:42:35 <alise> You walk outside the IRC window, which is defined to be to the right.
22:42:38 <alise> Sorry to say but Vorpal has it right here.
22:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I can walk to sleep!
22:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I go to sleep!
22:43:18 <fizzie> The OEM license is also notable for (at least attempting to be) non-transferable; you're not supposed to install it on any other computer than the one it "comes with".
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22:51:35 <alise> pikhq: Gregor: What's that crazy meta-OS you guys are doing?
22:51:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Microcosm.
22:52:12 <pikhq> If by "doing" you mean "not doing".
22:52:18 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, Gregor, did you get that VFS sorted out or have you just abandoned it?
22:52:47 <alise> It's totally a ripoff of my idea of user-space POSIX.
22:52:58 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
22:54:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit!
22:55:13 <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
22:55:27 <alise> ...wow I didn't even realise that until I said it.
22:55:33 <alise> My stupidity is... palatable.
22:55:45 <alise> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
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22:56:52 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
22:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
22:57:26 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
22:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
22:57:35 <HackEgo> 127|<Ami> Discrimination fields ACTIVATE.
22:57:39 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
22:57:40 <HackEgo> 116|<Dylan> s/Hebrew/senile/
22:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
22:57:46 <HackEgo> 216|<fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
22:57:55 <alise> `quote
22:57:59 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
22:58:01 <alise> `quote
22:58:05 <HackEgo> 52|<ehird> Apple = Windows.
22:58:14 <alise> `quote
22:58:16 <HackEgo> 53|<oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
22:58:20 <alise> `quote
22:58:23 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
22:58:28 <alise> `quote
22:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
22:58:33 <alise> `quote
22:58:39 <HackEgo> 104|<AnMaster> I'm 100% of what sort of magic was involved in it
22:58:45 <HackEgo> 154|<fax> sekuoir: that's just gay sex <sekuoir> I am learning though!
22:58:45 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
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23:04:57 <alise> I wonder how many billions of men have used the nick "cybergirl".
23:05:21 <coppro> lol
23:05:48 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:05:49 <HackEgo> 84|<Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see?
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23:05:53 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:05:55 -!- impomatic has left (?).
23:05:56 <HackEgo> 158|<Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
23:06:56 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:06:57 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
23:07:05 <HackEgo> 206|<nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
23:07:08 <HackEgo> 115|<coppro> hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling
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23:07:27 <alise> We scared away the cyber girl! Oh no!
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23:39:54 <nooga> urgh
23:39:58 <nooga> i like stoner rock
23:40:35 <Sgeo> What are OpenBSD's security concerns with hybrid IPv4/IPv6 stack?
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23:53:26 * Sgeo worships
23:55:15 <Sgeo> There is a typo in's whois info
23:58:47 <nooga> who's ?
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