2010-09-01: 00:01:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:02:16 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu[laptop]. 00:19:07 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: SyntaxError: it would appear your syntax is in error). 00:19:46 alise, jsforth 00:19:58 * Sgeo prepares for alise to make some sort of statement expressing disapproval 00:21:33 http://rx-core.org/jsvm/ 00:21:41 http://www.forthfreak.net/jsforth.html 00:21:56 (http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?jsforth) 00:22:02 close to the virtual metal? 00:22:06 http://solidcoding.blogspot.com/2008/12/wforth-javascript-forth-interpreter.html 00:22:13 'nuff said 00:22:45 I was expecting more of a "Don't use it" than a "It already exists" 00:23:02 *shrug* 00:23:06 nothing wrong with it, a bit useless though 00:23:19 It needs to be made to work with Chrome 00:23:50 * Sgeo is considering LSL-Forth 00:23:57 Which, apparently, already has been done 00:24:04 But I don't think it's been mass marketed 00:24:28 Which I wanted to do with a Scheme in LSL, and would want to do the same with a Forth 00:24:33 Scheme might be easier 00:24:34 Somehow, when talking about selling Second Life stuff you manage to sound as obnoxious as "social media gurus". 00:24:38 To get acceptance stuff 00:25:06 alise, I'm not a large clueless company 00:25:49 nor are "social media gurus"; they're just clueless 00:26:25 * Sgeo decides that wForth is worthless 00:26:44 It doesn't have SEE, it doesn't have c., 00:27:01 It has neither postpone nor [compile] 00:27:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:27:33 Doesn't have XTs 00:27:54 Doesn't have .s 00:28:13 I'm surprised it actually has : and ; 00:28:42 No S" 00:28:59 No ' nor ['] 00:29:13 Um... 00:29:14 WTF 00:29:16 No immediate 00:30:57 JSVM treats enter and space as the same thing, which I guess isn't necessarily bad 00:39:48 It's RetroForth. 00:39:51 It does that. 00:40:02 They just ported their VM to JS. 00:40:57 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:48:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:51:29 * Sgeo wonders if LSL-Forth should use native LSL strings or in-memory stuff 00:53:52 -!- Killerkid has joined. 00:54:24 Sgeo: Mu; it should not exist. 00:55:16 It has as much right to exist as jsforth does 00:57:26 Yes, but jsforth isn't marketed as something you should actually use. 00:58:15 What's wrong with trying to get people to use a hypothetical LSL-Forth? 00:58:35 Although I guess an LSL-Scheme would be easier 00:58:43 More difficult to implement an LSL-Scheme though 01:05:24 * Sgeo wonders if it would be easier to implement Scheme in Forth than directly in LSL 01:10:43 Sgeo: : min 2dup < if drop ; then nip ; : max ... 01:10:54 Sgeo: What min would look like in colorForth (with translation of colours to symbols) 01:11:00 Figure out how it works! 01:11:13 (Assuming those words are defined in cF, I don't know) 01:11:27 * Sgeo doesn't remember nip 01:13:56 is nip == swap drop ? 01:22:14 oerjan: yeah 01:22:16 * Sgeo wtfs at that : before max 01:22:25 it's defining max 01:22:28 i was just showing how it ended 01:22:31 (however, it is relevant) 01:22:34 Sgeo: note the multiple ;s 01:22:39 the nip isn't the important thing 01:22:52 i can explain :P 01:22:54 Your min does not have a sensible stack effect 01:23:15 Although I guess I have no clue wtf that extra ; is for 01:23:26 * oerjan think he has guessed 01:23:42 it's related to how you said cf does proper TCO... 01:23:51 Sgeo: yes it does 01:24:01 i'll explain it, since nobody is cool enough to get it 01:24:03 apart from oerjan 01:24:07 so Sgeo isn't cool enough to get it 01:24:12 Sgeo: ; does /not/ terminate the definition 01:24:15 *thinks 01:24:17 ; merely compiles as a return 01:24:20 there is no "else" 01:24:21 so here we have 01:24:29 2dup > if drop ; then nip ; 01:24:30 so 01:24:32 if they're > 01:24:34 drop then return 01:24:37 otherwise, the return will be skipped 01:24:42 so we nip then return 01:24:46 so how do you terminate definitions? 01:24:47 simple 01:24:48 by starting another one 01:24:51 thus the : max 01:24:56 (or max-in-red in cF itself) 01:25:15 you can't deny that that's cool. 01:25:23 ...so how do you actually start interpreting again? 01:25:37 exit in normal Forths does the same thing, right? 01:25:43 Sgeo: i think so 01:25:46 oerjan: i'm not actually sure. 01:25:52 oerjan: probably there is some word for it 01:25:54 :P 01:26:11 but ~all of colorForth is blocks of word definitions, so 01:26:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuOvqeABHvQ wtf 01:26:19 and ofc you never actually see : 01:26:19 it's just 01:26:23 [red NAME] [green WORDS] 01:26:24 [red NAME] [green WORDS] 01:26:24 etc 01:27:05 Sgeo: btw, you can "tail-recurse" in any forth 01:27:06 hm ; isn't yet another color? 01:27:08 just rdrop foo 01:27:12 oerjan: nope, it's a regular word 01:27:19 oerjan: it's not syntax highlighting, only actual semantic differences 01:27:26 what's rdrop? 01:27:31 drop from return stack 01:27:37 which is exactly what you think it is 01:27:46 huh hm 01:27:48 why doesn't it work 01:27:48 alise, the return stack is standardized? 01:27:57 Sgeo: Um ... it's a vital part of any Forth ... of course it is. 01:28:29 alise, but the things in it are guaranteed to have a specific meaning? Can't one Forth possibly use two cells for each thingy? 01:29:02 No. 01:29:16 Well, yes, of course it can; but a Forth can do anything it likes. 01:29:23 ANS Forth doesn't say it can, though, but that's not worth anything. 01:29:33 More to the point, the only thing that matters is that no Forth does that anyone knows of. 01:29:40 Because return stack manipulation is VERY common. 01:29:56 Now to figure out why rdrop doesn't wokr. 01:29:57 *work. 01:30:27 alise, return stack manipulation for the purposes of manipulating the return stack, or for trivial temporary storage? 01:30:57 The former. 01:31:06 Well, both. 01:31:40 : ok ." ok" ; ok 01:31:40 ok ok ok 01:34:18 nsfwish 01:34:59 Sgeo: what? 01:35:21 The video I pasted 01:36:39 You didn't. 01:37:22 I pasted a URL to a video 01:40:32 -!- augur has joined. 01:42:16 -!- Chat2705 has joined. 01:42:22 -!- Chat2705 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:45:44 Sgeo: wrong 01:45:46 check the logs 01:48:12 Sgeo is technically correct 01:48:30 that's a bit long to wait before saying "nsfw.*", though 01:48:33 oh, i see 01:49:40 It's a bit long before that part played 01:49:43 Sgeo: you have never seen Rejected? 01:49:44 seriously? 01:49:54 alise, I have today 01:50:47 it is the firmament on which the internet is based 02:05:35 What's a typical way to do events in Forth? 02:05:46 somext someevent 02:05:47 ? 02:09:06 You... don't 02:09:09 : 2dup ( a b -- a b a b ) over over ; 02:09:44 I think 02:09:57 alise, hm? 02:10:05 generally 02:10:10 : 2dup dup dup ; 02:10:18 alise, uh... 02:10:19 : 2dup postpone dup postpone dup ; immediate 02:10:22 oh right 02:10:24 of course not 02:10:25 i was thinking 02:10:26 2xdup 02:10:28 not dup over two 02:10:39 : 2dup postpone over postpone over ; immediate 02:10:39 that is 02:10:47 Why postpone? 02:11:03 And why would 2dup be immediate? 02:11:28 I take it you're also thinking of over as immediate. Why? 02:11:35 All the immediateness is ... alarming 02:13:02 postpone 02:13:06 Sgeo: simple 02:13:10 because 2dup should compile to over over 02:13:16 rather than having to be called 02:13:17 since it's so simple 02:13:41 So basically inlining 02:13:46 yep. 02:15:01 WTF 02:15:01 Forth will not understand this. It will desperately look for the words 'this', 'will', etc. However the word '' will mark everything up to the end of the line as comment. So this will work: 02:15:01 : *. * . ; This will multiply and print two numbers 02:15:41 I assume there should be a \ , but I simply don't see it 02:16:42 bad escaping obviously 02:19:32 Remember that aw-create thing? 02:19:37 It should really use a value 02:24:28 alise, would attempting to popularize LSL-Scheme make more sense? 02:34:10 Both make 0 sense. 02:35:27 alise, LSL sucks 02:35:30 Horribly 02:39:13 lavishly sucking language 02:39:40 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:40:03 -!- comex has joined. 02:41:14 alise, "The ANS Forth standard does not express Moore's vision of Forth. Moore believes the ANS standard is far too large and complex, and he doesn't see much value in any standard since people should write their own Forth. It is fair to say that most of the Forth community disagrees." 02:42:03 Sgeo: It is fair to say that "most of the X community" is defined as the writer's opinions on X. 02:42:09 Weasel words; look them up. 02:45:04 Hmm, I should attempt to figure out the return stack 02:46:08 WHat's the point of ?dup? 02:46:17 It's effect on the stack is conditional 02:46:20 *Its 02:49:28 Who knows? 02:49:33 Stupidity. 02:50:25 * Sgeo wonders if it makes sense to 'boot into Open Firmware' 02:54:42 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:00:47 My locker number is 24 03:10:08 * Sgeo ponders ForthNomic 03:10:28 It's doable... but the result would necessarily be very much unforthlike 03:19:38 -!- cal153 has joined. 03:42:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 03:47:53 llaallaa 03:49:43 llama rama 03:53:31 rama llama :o 03:57:18 autopsy 03:57:40 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:58:37 auto-psy 04:00:01 -!- Gregor has joined. 04:07:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:07:30 psychic autos 04:14:41 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:36:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:46:30 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:46:52 Hello did those you, who you wanted to install MegaZeux, done it yet? 05:50:05 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:51:00 -!- cheater00 has joined. 05:54:11 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:07:18 Well, just learned that I can't make an AW SDK wrapper for Gforth 06:07:38 Sgeo: O, you can't? 06:07:46 Or, actually, possibly I can, but I need to use undocumented stuff 06:07:52 zzo38, it needs callbacks 06:07:56 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Callbacks.html#Callbacks 06:08:12 You could somehow implement callbacks in Gforth, somehow 06:08:38 Hmm, true, I guess, but I'd have no clue where to start 06:09:37 I'm still not sure when ?dup is useful 06:09:46 Unfortunately I don't know either, but I have some guesses 06:09:52 And I do know when ?DUP is useful. 06:10:05 It is sometimes useful in ?DUP IF or ?DUP WHILE constructions 06:10:53 To do callbacks, perhaps, push stuff in stack, store address in return stack, when it returns pop what is needed and then return to the other program. Maybe, that might work? I don't know. 06:12:50 : rdrop r> drop ; ( except no, this would probably not be what a potential user would want ) 06:14:04 -!- Zuu has joined. 06:14:04 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 06:14:04 -!- Zuu has joined. 06:14:41 Oh dear god 06:14:49 That definitions of rdrop wouldn't work so well, if... 06:14:55 wow, the xkcd alt text today is geeky 06:14:58 I just had a thought involving a definition with 6 POSTPONE in the body 06:15:25 The definition you give might act like EXIT does.... 06:15:58 alise was doing something akin to inlinine 06:16:01 I think I'd use that 06:16:09 But then I might have a stack of postpones 06:16:29 Factored out with a definition that drops in multiple postpones... but the postpones need to be double 06:16:31 *doubled 06:16:32 If you want to inline the code, you use POSTPONE and IMMEDIATE 06:16:34 06:17:20 That pattern should be factored out into, say, a inline: 06:17:21 I move that we postpone this conversation indefinitely 06:17:26 Too tired and late to do it now 06:18:14 You might be able to make the definition clearer if you modify the parser to support backtick notation 06:18:25 backtick notation? 06:19:18 Backtick notation is something that some Forth systems support, I think the first one might have been HELFORTH, although I cannot find any information about it anymore. MegaZeux and TAVSYS also support backtick notation. 06:19:35 * Sgeo is more interested in what it does than what its history is 06:19:48 Backtick notation does this: 06:19:55 : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; 06:20:01 : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ; 06:20:26 Where the word IF` is the word to compile IF and DUP` is the word to compile DUP and so on. 06:20:55 But didn't whatn you just put attempt to define IF` ? 06:21:24 Sgeo: Can you write that more clearly, please? 06:22:50 Is : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; an example of using it, or an example of defining IF` ? 06:23:07 It is an example of defining IF` 06:23:17 And an example of using it. 06:23:18 Oh, as in the compilation semantics of IF? 06:23:23 Yes. 06:23:48 Some Forths use compile-only 06:23:56 Most use IMMEDIATE 06:24:04 Oh, wait 06:24:14 No, most would use immediate and be state-smart 06:24:22 Checking STATE 06:24:38 I remember reading that that's largely not a good thing to do 06:25:51 You are correct, that is not generally a good thing to do 06:26:44 : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ; 06:29:50 If you want an event system, what would it normally look like from the high level? 06:29:56 somext someevent 06:29:57 ? 06:30:58 You can see how MegaZeux does it, which is one possible way 06:31:18 The addresses are stored in a event array 06:31:59 And the built-in word to create them is :EVENT ( event-number -- )(enter compile mode) 06:33:04 That makes a lot of sense 06:33:12 Um, built in? 06:33:24 As in, not written in MegaZeux Forth? 06:33:44 Actually, it is not primitive, it is built-in to the standard library. 06:33:51 Ok 06:33:51 So it is written in MegaZeux Forth. 06:33:58 (I just made a kind of small mistake) 06:34:32 I need to brush teeth and go sleep 06:34:52 Hmm, maybe I should avoid deliberately using bad grammar 06:35:53 It doesn't matter, as long as it can be possible to understand it 06:37:37 An example of an event code in MegaZeux Forth might look like: SimpleLock EV.ITEM + :EVENT DROP BOARD_COLOR + @ TAKEKEY ; 06:38:35 -!- aortizm has joined. 06:38:40 hi 06:38:44 Hi aortizm 06:39:02 zzo38, what happens if EV.ITEM happens to be too large to h.. oh, wait, n/m 06:39:04 I think 06:39:25 I guess when I saw the ., my mind went to OOP mode, and thought it was a variable (well, value) 06:39:37 Hi Sgeo, I'm seeking someone who knows about possetions 06:40:00 aortizm, sorry, this channel is not about the spiritual type of esoterica 06:40:07 ok 06:40:20 This is about esoteric programming languages... languages that are made not for practical use, but for other reasons 06:40:27 They do not seek to be mainstream languages 06:40:37 EV.ITEM is a constant representing the value you must add to the kind ID number, to make the event number. 06:40:50 Brain**** is an example of an esoteric programming language 06:40:52 well perhaps it could use some usefull info.. 06:40:54 One of the more famous ones 06:41:13 -!- aortizm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:41:15 INTERCAL 06:41:35 aortizm: But sometimes other things are discussed too. But not always. (There was topic message in here once about the spiritual type, but that is not the main purpose of this channel, so if you have on-topic stuff to discuss, it takes priority, generally) 06:41:49 zzo38, aortizm left 06:42:11 Sgeo: Yes I see that, I wonder if they know where is the logs, maybe they should look at esolang wiki, too, to see what it is 06:42:31 I honestly doubt that e's interested 06:42:45 Hopefully he doesn't attempt to exorcise anyone 06:42:52 You might be correct, surely 06:47:34 -!- wareya_ has joined. 06:48:33 Do you have kern information for MagicMedieval font and MPlantin font? I have found program to convert TTF font to METAFONT, but, it doesn't convert kern information or ligature information. Do you have kern and ligature information? 06:50:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 06:50:30 I would like to know so that I can write templates for TeXnicard 06:50:41 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:51:17 I have found information about the .DVI and .*GF formats, so I can write a DVI driver, I already started it a bit 06:53:02 It creates text layers using the fonts and typeset text in the DVI file, and combines those pictures with external pictures when building a ImageMagick command-line that generates the card pictures. You can enter arbitrary ImageMagick operators using DVI specials. 07:00:45 What I need also is a special that converts units of measurement to pixels, so that these numbers are usable in ImageMagick regardless of what DPI resolution you are printing it at. 07:06:09 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later). 07:08:39 -!- jcp has joined. 07:10:00 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:10:18 -!- augur has joined. 07:15:27 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:18:44 -!- comex has joined. 07:23:01 -!- tombom has joined. 07:33:15 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:34:54 Can I get the mana symbols and tap symbols and those other things, also done in METAFONT? 07:38:40 * Sgeo ponders WAITUNTILEVENT 07:39:18 zzo38: no clue about kerning 07:39:47 zzo38: pixel size depends on DPI by definition 07:39:59 * Sgeo thinks it would probably be a good idea to make that a primitive 07:40:01 zzo38: and the symbols are images. No clue how you would get those into METAFONT 07:40:16 then again, I don't know all that much about METAFONT 07:41:51 coppro: Do you know who can help? Yes I know about pixel size and stuff like that, the output format is in 1 pixel for 1 dot, so if it is printed at 300 DPI it will be a 1 inch picture will be 300 pixels long. 07:42:38 And although I could use pictures for the mana symbols, I think I could get a much better quality if METAFONT is used instead, in addition, using METAFONT means TeX can typeset them the same way as ordinary text. 07:43:09 zzo38: in that case, you'd have to METAFONT-ize them yourself 07:47:02 I do know how I can write METAFONT macros for set symbols. The outline and fill of the set symbol can be separate text layers in dvinicard, and then some ImageMagick operators can be used to put fancy gradients and stuff like that. 07:47:42 -!- relet has joined. 07:49:38 How good is the quality of the mana symbols on cards generated by Magic Set Editor? I think using METAFONT can achieve much better quality. 07:54:03 zzo38: They are large images shrunken down 07:54:12 and most resolutions you'd use them at, you won't notice a loss in quality 07:55:08 165 x 178 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:29 -!- derdon has joined. 08:11:22 * Sgeo wonders if he should learn Factor 08:13:47 Sgeo: Learn it if you want to, but I don't really like it much, and I think you do not need to learn Factor 08:15:23 pikhq: I have lost whatever faith in your country I had left: http://chzoddlyspecific.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/4a65c96b-360e-4853-a7a2-abc782e9ca49.jpg 08:15:53 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:15:58 How large is a Magic: the Gathering card (in inches)? I did not find a ruler 08:16:49 2.5 by 3.5 or thereabouts 08:18:12 "Each Magic card, approximately 63 x 88 mm in size (2 15⁄32 by 3 7⁄16 inches), --"; nowadays you can just ask such questions from Wikipedia. 08:18:43 15/32 and 7/16 are reasonably close to .5 though. 08:18:48 truth 08:18:54 The cards I have in my computer use a template 375 x 523 but that doesn't even make 300 DPI. And the cards must be printed at a higher resolution than that! 08:19:11 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:19:12 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:19:43 -!- Ilari has joined. 08:20:03 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 08:20:34 Eventually if I write this program emough, it might be able to produce better quality cards than official WotC cards even. And then you can sue them if they do not follow the GNU GPL license...... 08:21:07 375x523 and those physical dimensions sounds like an approximately 150 dpi thing. 08:21:19 fizzie: Yes, I have calculate it and it is approx 150 dpi 08:24:12 If my program becomes good enough to be much higher quality than even official cards, then WotC can use it, if they learn how........ 08:24:29 And if they don't use it, their competitors will use it....... 08:25:01 zzo38: they could just keep the modifications in-house 08:25:17 coppro: Yes, they can, but they would still have to learn 08:25:44 Hopefully the included documentation would be sufficient 08:26:25 WotC lawyers are not slackoffs 08:27:53 I know that 08:28:11 But the program itself is not a template. 08:28:43 The template(s) would be separate packages that are not part of the program. 08:29:12 Of course they can use the program and templates internally if they want to, even with private modifications 08:30:39 But their competitors will make their own private improvements and they will be better than the one WotC uses 08:31:12 (I don't know who their competitors are, but surely their competitors can make templates, too) 08:33:10 Does WotC even use TeX or METAFONT or ImageMagick at all? 08:33:33 I would be surprised (but delighted) if they did. 08:34:29 (My guess is horrible in-house tools built on top of some Windows graphical-design apps.) 08:34:54 You may need to go kidnap an employee to make sure. 08:36:16 I think you are probably correct, they probably use horrible in-house tools built on top of some Windows graphical-design apps. And they probably paid a lot of money for it! 08:42:34 Some people use Photoshop or GIMP, but I find ImageMagick is far superior. Some people use LaTeX, Microsoft Word, OpenOffice, etc, but I find Plain TeX is far superior. Some people use various other software for designing typefaces, but I find METAFONT is far superior. 08:44:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 08:44:43 imagemagick is not suitable for complex editing 09:12:08 -!- kuato has joined. 09:12:08 -!- kuato has quit (Excess Flood). 09:23:23 -!- iGO has joined. 09:24:33 -!- iGO has quit (Client Quit). 09:24:54 -!- iGO has joined. 09:42:55 -!- immibis has joined. 09:43:33 "99 bottles of beer on the wall. 99 bottles of beer. If one of the bottles should suddenly fall, there'd be undefined bottles of beer on the wall"... 09:44:11 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:46:34 -!- immibis has left (?). 09:50:59 -!- iGO has quit. 09:55:38 -!- iGO has joined. 10:20:32 -!- relet has quit (Read error: No route to host). 10:21:32 -!- relet has joined. 10:22:26 -!- GuestA05364 has joined. 10:22:41 -!- GuestA0586F has joined. 10:22:46 -!- GuestA05364 has quit (Client Quit). 10:22:51 -!- GuestA0586F has quit (Client Quit). 10:33:57 -!- iGO has quit. 11:24:41 -!- asiekierka has joined. 11:24:46 Hello 11:24:49 fizzie? 11:26:22 -!- choochter has joined. 11:27:06 fizzie i need you 11:32:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:58:44 Am at work, not very much here. 11:58:59 fizzie, can i send you a new style for fungot? 11:59:01 asiekierka: later incidents are chaotic. as i advanced, the light ahead seemed to grow in size and general outline. nor, said the dreams and the fancies they lost so many centuries ago, and no clear account of any kind, but my watch told me it was only the start. zeb here was callin' folks up an' everybody was a-listenin', an' i guess obed kind o' fnord an' i see every one was covered with pegs from which hung a set of pictures 11:59:08 23000-26000 comments from YouTube 11:59:21 Well, sure. How big is it? 11:59:30 1.8 megabytes 11:59:40 Oh, then I guess an email attachment is fine. 11:59:46 yeah, for now 11:59:51 i will do updates to it once in a while 12:33:32 -!- sftp has joined. 12:40:25 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 12:40:34 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:44:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:11:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:36:26 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:40:57 -!- alise has joined. 14:41:07 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:56:32 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 14:56:51 alise: This -- http://p.zem.fi/xcf -- made Xcolorforth compile, start, make a window, and not segfault on x86-64; unfortunately it still only produces a black window that needs to be kill -9'd away. The main point is sed -e 's/poll/cf_poll/g'; it renames the "poll" function in main.c; if you don't do that, SDL_Init (at least as non-root when it can't access the framebuffer device) will fail, presumably because SDL/Xlib/xcb/something expects "poll" to be the lib 14:56:51 c poll, not some other poll. 14:57:47 fizzie: I believe a completely 32-bit binary must be made, since colorForth is 32-bit afaik 14:57:56 This may be hard what with its memory antics, though 14:58:01 If you do it like that, it is a 32-bit binary, as far as I know. 14:58:07 Hmm. 14:58:19 fizzie: Try it as root? Yes, yes, suicide, I know. 14:58:26 But I forgot to use REISUB; you may not be so stupid. 14:58:43 I don't have root here, I'm at work. :p 14:58:50 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:58:52 It only did things as root for me; then again, it was broken entirely. 14:58:56 fizzie: Aw. 14:59:48 Anyway, I attached a gdb to it and backtraced; there was a call stack 5 levels deep inside the function "xcf", which is where it copies color.com contents to; I don't think I'm interested enough in starting to go through the asm code to find out why it's not drawing anything. 14:59:53 -!- sftp has joined. 14:59:58 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:00:52 But, but XCOLORFORTH! 15:00:53 (5 levels in xcf, which had managed to then call the main.c function that makes SDL blit the framebuffer into the window, so I think it's likely it just wasn't drawing anything into it, for some reason or another.) 15:01:28 Maybe if I can stay awake at home. Still, it's not exactly "bare metal" when ran using the SDL wrapper, now. 15:01:47 Well, yes, but it /is/ bizarre enough to be amusing. 15:02:30 Maybe I should build a Windows binary, just for the discordance. 15:03:06 fizzie: There is a Windows colorForth already. 15:03:15 Oh. :/ Not then. 15:03:58 fizzie: I doubt you'd get any Linux-specific bits to work, anyway. 15:04:06 Assuming there /are/ some; I'm not exactly sure how modified color.s is. 15:04:12 If at all. 15:04:19 Well, it must be, since it's gas syntax. 15:05:51 The assembly bits don't seem to be doing very much Linux-specific things, though. The main.c wrapper passes on a pointer to the SDL surface pixel data, and two function pointers, one for refreshing the screen, and another for polling for keypresses. 15:06:07 Hmm. 15:09:34 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:12:03 -!- comex has joined. 15:16:06 -!- GuestA05364 has joined. 15:16:07 -!- iGO has joined. 15:16:26 -!- iGO has quit (Client Quit). 15:17:32 q 15:20:35 -!- relet has joined. 15:21:21 -!- sftp_ has joined. 15:21:33 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:21:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:22:46 * Sgeo wonders what alise thinks of factor 15:23:48 The language is very interesting. The infrastructure, libraries and tools they have built themselves are utterly astonishing, surpassing many commercial languages. The language itself I'm not sure about; it doesn't seem that natural to use to me, but maybe I just haven't adjusted. 15:24:18 Does it parse itself the way Forth does? 15:24:36 It has the facilities for such words, yes. 15:24:38 I remember once looking at Factor and almost immediately rejecting it for some reason 15:24:58 Everything's a bit more semantically-refined, which makes the reflective tools better, the code sometimes easier to understand. 15:25:15 Now that I kind of get Forth, I think I'd be more ok with Factor 15:25:47 I think it is definitely worth checking out. 15:25:54 The tools and libraries /are/ absolutely amazing. 15:26:25 Do you think it might supplant my current love for Smalltalk? 15:26:36 Also, AW bindings for Factor! 15:26:45 (Probably more reasonable than for Forth) 15:27:06 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:27:09 If I could obliterate every single bit comprising AW in this universe I would just to stop you trying to make bindings for it. 15:28:26 Is " a word or something in Factor? There's no space between it and the content of the string 15:28:31 It's.. weird 15:28:32 Maybe it's just some sort of a neurosis. You know, some people can't stand when a painting is hanging crooked, or need to alphabetize other people's books/records/whatever? Maybe some people just feel the need to write AW bindings for absolutely everything. 15:29:28 You know, AW bindings are a project that I want to do, and I should do some sort of project in each language I really want to understand... 15:30:03 Just stick to writing more and more Befunge interpreters, like us sane people do. 15:30:54 Sgeo: " is syntax; I think you can define your own syntax. 15:31:02 eww syntax 15:31:02 >.> 15:31:08 Sgeo: Definable syntax. 15:31:14 hmm 15:32:21 * alise downloads factor-linux-x86-64-2010-08-29-14-56.tar.gz 15:32:40 One of my patches almost sort-of made it into Factor! 15:32:46 Well 15:32:50 It made it in, just with a few changes 15:33:12 If you're on *nix, when you divide by zero you get a proper error message, not a vague "system error" type one. 15:33:15 As well as other such errors. 15:33:29 (Vague system error + meaningless number) 15:33:40 alise, when, exactly, did you start learning programming? 15:33:41 Because I wrote some errno -> error string code and replaced the error handler with that. 15:33:50 This was about a year ago. 15:34:18 Sgeo: It's hard to answer. Well, I fumbled with PHP at 8; fumbled is the right world, it was all cargo cult and misconceptions and no understanding. 15:34:20 I love Factor's unit test stuff, I think 15:34:21 -!- madbrain2 has joined. 15:34:43 By about 10 I was starting to have a better understanding of stuff; I still did PHP, but it was pretty well thought-out PHP. 15:35:03 -!- Gregor has joined. 15:35:04 (I picked up Javascript, SQL, etc. in the interim of all this.) 15:35:25 Age 11 I think I picked up Ruby and after a while this sort of banged into my head about how I need to organise code. This is 2007. 15:36:04 Then by 12 I somehow covered the basics of tons of stuff including Lisp etc; I think I first touched Haskell when I was 13. 15:36:13 Sgeo: And, uh, it's pretty much been gradual improvement since then. 15:36:16 What a boring history. 15:36:31 But yeah, it was more gradual than "I started learning programming when I was N." 15:36:52 (I mean, I was copying and modifying BASIC examples so they broke into -- I think a BBC Micro or something -- when I was really little.) 15:37:14 I might have done something like that if I wasn't under the constant impression that you need to pay money 15:37:27 Read about VB, Perl, and a bunch of other languages 15:37:45 Wrote some VB at summer camp, I think 15:37:49 Yes, well, proprietary software has made sure the programming child is more-or-less stillborn. 15:38:20 9th grade or so, started with Python, mostly because it was free (Didn't get started with Java, although I read about it first) 15:39:19 Hmm, when was I experimenting with Magsbot 15:39:27 That might be sooner than Python 15:39:53 Magsbot 2003 or so. 9th grade 2003 or so 15:40:11 WHen using Magsbot, I somehow guessed that it used "" to escape quotes 15:40:22 (Or maybe '', don't remember which is its string syntax) 15:42:20 What's 9th grade, age-wise? 15:42:33 Silly US system. 15:43:49 2003 - 1989 = 2004 - 1990 = 14 15:44:46 Oh, right, 2003. 15:45:30 Huh. I assume Factor's [ ] doesn't stay in the dictionary the way Forth's :noname ; does 15:45:37 Sgeo: Everyone else is at a ridiculous disadvantage to me, since I've had a computer since I was 3. So don't feel bad :-P 15:47:25 Sgeo: It's a proper closure. 15:47:32 (Forth's isn't, having not really a true concept of a closure.) 15:47:40 Sgeo: Try not to compare it too much to Forth. 15:47:43 It's concatenative more than stack-based. 15:47:44 Higher-level. 15:47:46 You know Joy? 15:47:48 Or Cat? 15:47:50 Nope 15:47:59 Never heard of those until I started reading about Forth 15:48:10 Sgeo: Joy is the "purest" concatenative language: like a stack calculus, 15:48:13 *calculus. 15:48:27 We say that everything is a function, and usually in a language if you have something like "x y", it means x(y) 15:48:27 How is Forth impure? >.> 15:48:36 We say instead that "x y" = y . x 15:48:40 function composition 15:48:49 And we say that the whole program is applied to an empty stack 15:49:02 dup is the function dup({x,...}) = {x,x,...} 15:49:08 drop({x,...}) = {...} 15:49:13 swap({x,y,...}) = {y,x,...} 15:49:15 etc. 15:49:25 But we also have [...], which pushes the list of words inside on to the stack. 15:49:33 I think I might like this more than Haskell 15:49:37 We have i, which takes a [...] off the top of the stack and puts all the words inside it after the i. 15:49:38 It seems easier 15:49:39 So 15:49:45 [a b c] i => a b c 15:49:54 Sgeo: So as you can see this is utterly pure and functional. 15:49:58 And not imperative. 15:50:05 Factor has more in common with it than it does Forth. 15:50:09 Well, probably not, but I'm thinking in stacky mode 15:50:11 So think functionally. 15:50:22 Think functionally. 15:50:26 But also stacky. 15:50:29 i.e., concatenatively. 15:51:45 -!- GuestA05364 has quit. 15:51:58 * Sgeo bibbles at checking stack effect 15:52:24 BRB. I may or may not remain connected 15:52:24 In a good or bad way? 15:52:38 In a, how does it work way 15:53:41 Simple. 15:53:47 Each word inside's stack effect is known. 15:53:50 Just cascade them. 15:54:06 Also, what the fuck is bibbling. I assume some Creatures thing. 15:56:24 alise, what happens with ifs? 15:56:50 Well, I guess they're checked, but how do you define your own thing that needs to work with stack checking? 15:56:51 Both branches have to have the same stack effect, I think. 15:56:59 Sgeo: It Just Works. 15:57:03 Don't worry about it. 15:57:19 It's not something you define. 15:57:27 (Nor a heuristic, for that matter.) 16:00:19 Sgeo: Basically, every word has to have a consistent stack effect. 16:00:28 What is if? 16:00:31 Syntax? 16:00:33 A word. 16:01:25 Sgeo: \ if see 16:01:37 Hmm, wait 16:01:38 no 16:01:40 I haven't downloaded Factor yet 16:01:41 Sgeo: \ if help 16:02:21 Lemme find the manual page for yu. 16:02:24 *you 16:02:55 Sgeo: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-if,kernel.html 16:03:06 Includes the definition. 16:03:14 (This can be conjured up with \ if help in the graphical listener.) 16:04:02 Sgeo: Basically, anything you write yourself will be composed of smaller primitives that already have a known stack effect, which Factor will check you adhere to. 16:04:12 So, any conditionals or whatever you write will already work with them. 16:04:24 No need to declare anything, since /every other word's stack effect is known/. 16:04:53 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:05:06 Sgeo: The only word with an unknown stack effect is call: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-call,kernel.html. 16:05:08 And even then, 16:05:13 "Words which call an input parameter must be declared inline so that a caller which passes in a literal quotation can have a static stack effect." 16:05:28 -!- cpressey has joined. 16:05:33 There's call( stack -- effect ) 16:05:38 Which does what you think it does. 16:05:44 -!- derdon has joined. 16:05:47 (Requires a ( stack -- effect ) quotation on the top of the stack, and calls it.) 16:05:57 So call is generally not used; it's pretty evil. 16:06:10 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 16:06:15 (But used by functions to implement safe ones, such as if, so it's there.) 16:06:50 Sgeo: Oh yeah, and Factor compiles to very compact, efficient native code (no C compiler or whatever). 16:06:50 Hi alise 16:07:09 It's pretty competitive with SBCL, which is pretty much the gold standard for language implementation, bowing only to O'Caml and C. 16:07:12 cpressey: Hi. 16:07:28 Wait, if call can only be used with statically defined ... thingies, what's the point? 16:07:37 erm, [ ] thingies 16:07:58 Sgeo: for example, if. 16:08:15 The two quotations ("[ ] thingies") are always static. 16:08:19 But the boolean to branch on is not. 16:08:21 if is ? call 16:08:27 X Y true ? => X 16:08:31 X Y false ? => Y 16:08:38 So as you can see, "? call" is if. 16:08:56 Yet you can't pass a dynamically-generated quotation to if. Well, you can, but only if it's known at compile time. 16:09:01 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:09:13 (Composition, etc.) 16:09:20 Sgeo: What I'm saying is, don't worry about it. 16:09:21 It always works. 16:09:29 Not a heuristic or a hack. 16:09:37 Bubut... how can I store a quotation, then? 16:09:40 For later use? 16:09:41 ... 16:09:43 Of course you can 16:09:58 Okay, clearly you don't know Factor enough to understand half of the edge-cases I'm explaining. 16:10:03 Sgeo: Forget everything I said. 16:10:09 My new answer is: 16:10:34 Yes, it always works. No, it's not a heuristic. No, it's not hacky. It's like Haskell's type checking, only it never needs help from you. 16:10:50 She made her own slides 16:11:04 What? 16:11:14 The Perl professor 16:11:24 And she just emphasized that it's "Perl", not "PERL" 16:11:28 Learning Perl and Factor at the same time. Great idea... XD 16:11:45 I'm learning Factor for fun. I'm learning Perl because I have to at this school 16:12:13 Don't blame me when you write [ + ] $foo = ; 16:12:17 A school that makes you learn Perl. That's... very interesting. 16:12:30 cpressey: At least the prof seems sane enough to teach best practices. 16:12:37 Which make Perl into a good enough language. 16:13:29 alise: Yes, it just seems like such a... non-academic choice, somehow. Java, C++, Python would all beat it out in most heads that I've seen. 16:13:44 For different, maybe bad, reasons. 16:13:47 This is a non-academic course 16:13:49 >.> 16:13:51 Ah. 16:13:55 Well, still. 16:14:01 PHP is what you should be learning! 16:14:01 "Computer Programming and Information Systems" 16:14:07 And a non-academic university, from the sounds of it >____> 16:14:08 It's in the school of business 16:14:18 Isn't "unacademic" a word? 16:14:22 Whatever, of course it is. 16:14:24 Unacademic. 16:14:25 * cpressey shrugs 16:14:35 I love how vague ICT-style names get each passing year. 16:14:38 Information Systems! 16:14:42 Information Nodes! 16:14:45 Information... Technology! 16:14:52 Information ENTITIES! 16:14:54 ENTITY ENTITIES! 16:14:58 THINGS! 16:15:15 Sadly, Information Systems and Information Technology are pretty old and standard at this point. 16:15:30 And very, very sad concepts. 16:16:05 So what is this SBCL? I should know this 16:16:14 cpressey: Steel Bank Common Lisp. 16:16:20 Srsly? Heh. 16:16:23 CMUCL's developed descendant. 16:16:39 cpressey: Carnegie Mellon University Common Lisp. 16:16:43 Figure out the pun and get a cookie. 16:16:56 "Compiled Lisp" always makes me blink. 16:17:05 It's how Common Lisp is done. 16:17:14 (That is, figure out the pun in SBCL's name using CMUCL's.) 16:17:14 alise: OK, working on it. Still too early to take apart deep, profound puns, you know. 16:17:23 cpressey: I could just tell you. 16:17:28 :P 16:17:46 Or I could jkust read it inadvertently on the wp page, which I just did. Sorry. 16:17:49 Or that, yes. 16:18:48 cpressey: But yeah, O'Caml and SBCL are very near the top of the fastest functional languages. (Only beaten by weird things like ATS, probably.) 16:18:55 SBCL is competitive with gcc in many cases. 16:19:03 O'Caml regularly gets gcc performance on well-written code. 16:19:13 Factor is competitive with SBCL. So pretty fast, and all that. 16:19:31 alise: Interesting. My perception was that ghc was one of the top runners. That's like 8 years out of date, maybe. 16:19:54 Not gcc-level, obviously, and good for a lazy language, but still. 16:20:15 cpressey: ghc is quite a few places down. But it's good if you either write ridiculously strict, imperative code /or/ write code that makes its stream fusion and other advanced features happy. 16:20:40 Run-of-the-mill, not-cleverly-written (not just for performance, in general) Haskell code isn't very fast with GHC. (And it takes up terabytes of memory.) 16:21:01 Impressive for Haskell, though. :P 16:23:11 hash table == dictionary, right? 16:23:19 She asked if anyone worked with hash tables before.. 16:23:29 hash table implements dictionary 16:23:35 what cpressey said 16:23:39 only python calls them dictionaries :P 16:23:53 C# dictionaries are different? 16:23:55 dictionary == map 16:23:57 Oh, C#. 16:24:01 Who gives a fuck about C#. 16:24:21 I should start writing C# just to piss alise off. 16:24:26 cpressey: Pet peeve: "associative array". It might not be an array, moron! 16:24:39 You fail at generality, Wikipedia. 16:24:44 alise: Yeah, I never liked that term either. 16:32:22 Factor does have an FFI, right? 16:32:45 Sgeo: An excellent one. 16:32:56 Sgeo: The entire UI is written in OpenGL, in Factor. 16:33:08 With Cocoa, Win32 and X11 backends; again in Factor. 16:33:31 Indeed, it even comes with a full libc binding in the stdlib. 16:33:37 :( 16:33:45 Sgeo: you haven't seen the UI yet, have you? 16:33:52 alise, no 16:34:05 Factor is possibly the most well-documented and comprehensive community-developed language there is. 16:34:17 The documentation viewer is wonderful, the debugger is great, etc. 16:34:39 How about on-the-fly modification of code? 16:34:44 ... 16:34:49 You can click on a word in the listener (REPL) to look at its documentation, which is always useful. (It'll also tell you where a word is, if you use it and haven't imported the right module; it will import it for you if you want). 16:34:53 Sgeo: what do you mean? 16:34:57 like modifying the standard library> 16:35:01 *library? 16:35:02 alise, Smalltalk style, or Erlang style 16:35:02 cpressey: ? 16:35:10 Sgeo: Yep: \ sqrt edit 16:35:18 Opens in your defined editor (one of many). 16:35:29 The best one to use is Emacs with the comprehensive Factor mode whose name I forget. 16:35:34 It integrates tightly with the listener. 16:35:47 Ok, I'm cancelling the Smalltalk bindings project 16:35:55 ? 16:36:08 cpressey: Now Factor is his girlfriend. 16:36:25 Oh, FUEL is the name of the Emacs thing. 16:36:26 alise: Oh dear. Falcon will become very, very jealous. 16:36:38 cpressey: Nonono, Forth! Or was it Smalltalk? 16:36:57 I guess Smalltalk isn't the basis of a long-term relationship. LOLOLOLOL SEE WUT I DID THAR 16:37:58 * alise sets up FUEL 16:37:59 She had trouble figuring out why '\\n' and '\n' were giving her the same thing 16:38:23 She expected '\\n' to give her a newline 16:38:27 Oh. 16:38:31 Maybe she is retarded, then. 16:38:38 Sgeo: The prof? 16:38:42 cpressey, yes 16:39:39 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:40:07 Sgeo: BTW, I do think you have to re-load a module before your saved changes take effect. 16:40:11 That's reasonable, though. 16:40:24 Can the project still be running while it's reloaded? 16:40:40 Uhhhh... not really. I assume by project you mean "some word". 16:41:25 * Sgeo facepalms at Perl 16:42:09 what/ 16:42:11 *what? 16:42:21 The whole automatic conversion of strings to numbers etc 16:47:32 [[The f parsing word adds the f object to the parse tree, and is also the class whose sole instance is the f object. The f object is the singleton false value, the only object that is not true. The f object is not equal to the f class word, which can be pushed on the stack using word wrapper syntax:]] 16:47:34 xD 16:48:44 Please tell me that `perl' is a REPL and that I just haven't figured out how to use it 16:49:57 Figurd it out 16:50:00 Not quite a REPL 16:50:04 But still easier to use 16:50:22 And she just said that she won't teach it to the students right now because she doesn't have anything prepared 16:52:05 Sgeo: I can't tell you that. 16:52:30 Sgeo: If you've figured it out, please let me know. 16:52:54 as far as I remember perl reading from standard in is simply perl reading from stdin. Though I may be wrong. 16:53:05 Oh, >.> 16:53:05 Sgeo: perl -de0 16:53:14 gets you the debugger 16:53:17 which is almost a REPL 16:53:25 usually it's easier to just write a script, though 16:53:27 Sgeo: there ARE perl repls 16:53:30 Just `perl' is also easy 16:53:37 Although perhaps annoying 16:53:37 Devel::REPL is the best 16:53:39 yeah cpan probably has a few REPLs 16:53:42 but to get that you need to figure out cpan 16:53:45 and cpan is LIQUID PAIN 16:53:51 cpanplus is better, so you'd want that 16:53:54 Nothing wrong with 16:53:55 perl 16:53:56 of course, you'd have to install cpanplus 16:53:59 #Some perl code 16:54:00 * cpressey never thought of using the debugger as a repl. 16:54:02 ^D 16:54:07 alise, depends on distro. Gentoo had a tool to generate ebuilds for cpan packages iirc 16:54:08 cpressey: ais523 told me that trick 16:54:11 which worked quite well 16:54:12 Vorpal: Windows. 16:54:15 I usually just use -e "print 56 * 71;" on the command line 16:54:16 alise, oops 16:54:23 alise, that will indeed be painful 17:01:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:02:32 Well, in case anyone cares, I have essentially finished Eightebed. Might want to tweak the doc is all, then need to find a time to publish it. Also, I built qemu last night and ran BefOS under it. Also rebuilt BefOS from source (it has a recursive makefile, but in my defense, it (a) is broken and (b) includes the comment "This is so wrong." at the top.) 17:03:09 cpressey, eightebed? 17:04:08 cpressey, recursive as in calling itself by invoking make? 17:04:19 ... 17:04:27 Vorpal: you know what a fucking recursive makefile is. 17:04:46 alise, yes and that tends to be invoke make in a subdir by calling make in a rule 17:04:59 *clap* *clap* *clap* 17:05:00 alise, my question still stands 17:05:03 So you didn't need to ask anything, really. 17:05:26 alise, because recursive make in the other sense sounds quite fun 17:08:11 recursive make has some perfectly legal uses. For example /usr/src/Makefile on FreeBSD is recursive as far as I remember. Or are you suggesting a single makefile for kernel, libc, userspace programs and so on should feel free to implement that. Would likely be quite a pain 17:08:26 since you can rebuild only a subtree. That still has to work 17:09:00 include libc/Makefile 17:09:03 that was hard 17:09:08 Why would rebuilding a subtree not work with a monolithic Makefile? 17:09:26 I suppose Vorpal recursively calls the interpreter rather than using "require" statements, too. 17:09:27 cpressey, well, it could, would have to be run from the top dir though 17:09:34 make usr/bin/cat 17:09:36 No it wouldn't. 17:09:45 libc/Makefile could have all the stuff needed to build the libc. 17:09:50 The makefile in . would include it. 17:09:52 alise, yes in the sense that cd libc; make 17:09:57 Vorpal: nope 17:09:59 cd libc; make would work 17:10:00 would not easily work 17:10:01 but so would 17:10:04 make libc/... 17:10:05 alise, could be done 17:10:07 Vorpal: of course it would 17:10:12 you write the libc makefile in the libc directory 17:10:14 and include it one above 17:10:23 you have to handle some directory differences, but nothing unsolvable 17:10:24 I have made a makefile that calls itself, once, fwiw, but it was limited to one level of recursion that way. 17:10:25 alise, as far as I can tell that need some path mangling 17:10:37 makefiles can have a target to make themselves 17:10:45 when this happens, make automatically calls it again with the new makefile 17:10:52 (this is for managing dependencies automatically; I have used it) 17:10:54 you do 17:11:07 Makefile: $(SRCS) \ ... run makedep or gcc -Msomething or whatever ... 17:11:18 (and append to make.deps) 17:11:19 then underneath 17:11:21 include make.deps 17:11:32 and it'll always generate new dependencies and include the updated file if you change the sources 17:11:48 alise, yes but that is not the same as calling itself in the sense of: foo:\n\tmake bar 17:12:05 It's metanough for me. 17:12:12 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 17:12:17 alise, and a lot more boring 17:12:22 alise, about as boring as kexec ;P 17:13:10 I'd say a Makefile rule is a lot more interesting than ZOMG CALLING THE PROGRAM MAKE INSIDE A MAKEFILE. 17:14:13 "Evolving Intelligent Systems. Methodology and Applications"; as far as course names go, that's a bit on the pretentious side. (It's just about on-line learning in different machine-learning contexts.) 17:14:52 alise, depends on how you use it. I mean, C++ templates in general are not that interesting. But when used to do advanced compile time computation it is a bit more interesting, in an esoteric way 17:15:10 I'm quite sure you could use make calling itself for some interesting hacks 17:15:21 fizzie: Programming GOD. An introductory AI course. 17:15:57 alise: "To further confuse matters, Murray also has a tendency to rename his theory frequently; it’s variously referred to as the Concept-Fiber Theory of Mind, the Fiber-Concept Theory of Mind, the AI4U Theory of Mind, the Mentifex Theory of Mind, the Standard Model of the Mind, Project Mentifex, the First Detailed Theory of Mind, and the Grand Unified Theory of Mind." 17:16:23 (Grand Unified Theory of Mind, especially.) 17:16:46 is that the mentifex guy? 17:16:56 Yes, it's from the Mentifex FAQ. 17:17:02 I love Mentifex. 17:17:51 Bye 17:18:20 There was yet another comp.lang.forth (or Usenet in general) newcomer who was all "ooh, he's been working on this for twenty years all by himself; this is the sort of project that generates Real Science(tm), versus the corrupt capitalistic committee-driven universities, pshaw". 17:18:26 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:18:42 Forth does attract the crazies a bit. 17:20:26 alise: MindForth Programming Journal (MFPJ) 2010 August 25: http://p.zem.fi/mpfj-2010-aug-25 -- see, he's almost completely "solved AI". 17:20:58 anyone like .nsf? 17:21:13 That one was crossposted to comp.lang.forth,comp.ai.nat-lang,comp.robotics.misc,alt.consumers.free-stuff -- especially the last group seems to be incredibly relevant. 17:21:30 A GOD BES SPIRIT 17:21:36 madbrain2: what's .nsf again? 17:21:54 nes song 17:22:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:22:38 the songs from famicompo 7 are out 17:25:43 alise: Hey, http://zem.fi/~fis/xcf.png -- I just copy-pasted those commands from that paste here at home, and that happened. 17:26:22 fizzie: Wait. 17:26:26 where's the dvorak keyboard? 17:26:27 Oh 17:26:29 There it is! 17:26:42 Too bad I can't use that thing at all. 17:26:58 fizzie: http://www.colorforth.com/keys.html 17:27:01 The keys there are the two halves 17:27:08 left alt switches keypads 17:27:11 "e " starts the editor 17:27:12 HAVE FUN 17:27:48 I've seen that, but it's still oh-so-confusing! I'm going to try having fun at some other time. 17:28:36 fizzie: You basically have to be Chuck Moore. 17:28:45 Reading the site and http://colorforthray.info/ may help. MAY. 17:28:48 I need to be registering for a WAVE UNIVERSITY account, anyway; they're going to put all the IT systems of the three separate universities into a blender, and then making us eat the sludge that comes out of it. 17:29:29 if you guys form some committee to create a modern university in mexico 17:29:31 you could call it 17:29:35 Mexican Wave University 17:29:44 like in cooperation with yours 17:30:36 Best wavelet ever: the Mexican hat wavelet. 17:32:21 fizzie: Ooh! Or if you get bought out by Google: 17:32:24 Google Wave University 17:40:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:41:26 Yay, my new Wave account lets me download the ISO of COMSOL Multiphysics 4.0a. (It's some sort of finite-element solver/simulator we have a campus license for.) 17:44:38 colorForth: Gives Chuck Moore the programmer productivity of twenty Chuck Moores! 17:51:35 fizzie, so hm. This wave university thingy seems rather messy. 18:00:33 bbl kernel upgrade 18:04:39 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:04:42 -!- augur has joined. 18:06:49 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:13:41 brb 18:14:05 -!- madbr2 has joined. 18:18:25 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:18:32 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 18:18:50 -!- madbrain2 has joined. 18:18:53 -!- madbr2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:24:58 So, yes, BefOS is rubbish. But it *was* pretty cool running it on actual bare metal (a disused 486 desktop back in the day) and having to wait for the actual, physical floppy to seek, when paging up and down. Putative todo list: Clean up the code base, Switch to unreal mode on boot, Allow editing memory pages, Implement an actual VM for it (likely something rather befungeoid, but not Befunge), Rebrand the thing because 18:25:29 cpressey, because what? 18:25:34 I think your line was cut short 18:25:44 ... Rebrand the thing because I don't like the name BefOS. 18:25:48 ah 18:25:57 yeah it was cut after "because" 18:26:14 cpressey, strange irc client that doesn't automatically split overly long lines 18:29:41 cpressey: does it actually have a UI? 18:30:33 alise, how do you define UI here? 18:30:40 brb 18:30:47 cpressey knows. 18:36:58 alise: Yes, it has a user interface. After a fashion. 18:38:10 * Vorpal considers a makefile based init script system 18:38:15 I was thinking "Rewrite UI in the befungeoid VM" as one of the todo items, but didn't write it, because I'm not sure. Rewriting some of the system in the interpreted language, yes. 18:38:47 I think that might actually work rather well 18:40:57 also need to document the key mappings, rather badly (I swear they used to be, I must have lost that page.) 18:41:40 cpressey, hm, how large is the funge space of this thing? 18:42:22 Vorpal: It's a set of 80x25 pages. Each of those is 2K. There are currently as many as will fit on a floppy. 18:43:10 cpressey, I think that with 64-bit mode you do some cleaver stuff with the virtual pages so you can have a flat funge-space, not with 64-bit cells of course. And then allocate pages as needed 18:43:18 you can't do fully 32 bit cells either 18:44:44 Yes, because long mode is SUPER FUN. 18:44:51 because 1) 48 bits actually usable with a hole in "the middle", and sign extending the addresses in the upper half 2) you need a few pages for interpreter code and meta data 18:45:03 * cpressey is completely lost 18:46:24 cpressey, what I'm suggesting that you with 16-bit cells could do something like BASE+y*SOMETHING+x and then use that address in your virtual address space as the funge space position 18:47:21 cpressey, you need BASE because you want a few pages somewhere to keep track of what physical memory is mapped where and also the interpreter code 18:47:30 Vorpal: The VM language is only going to superficially resemble Befunge, and even then, the Befunge it resembles is Befunge-93. 18:47:32 of course you could put that at the top 18:47:52 So - 16 bits is plenty to describe a position in an 80x25 page 18:47:54 cpressey, right, I was just discussing a rather hackish use of paging 18:48:04 cpressey, to abuse that to create a sparse array 18:48:20 sparse by page faulting if the page isn't used already 18:48:40 No page faults. Not protected mode. Of course, you're free to write your own OS. 18:48:46 you probably don't want BASE+y*SOMETHING+x, horrible for cache if traveling much in y 18:49:20 so maybe hilberts space filling curve, not sure how fast that is to compute 18:49:27 or interleaving x and y bits 18:49:45 cpressey, I KNOW! I was just discussing an interesting hack I thought of 18:49:59 cpressey, which would be possible only on OS level 18:50:26 cpressey, stop being so negative 18:51:06 Vorpal: Chill, dude. 18:51:17 cpressey, how many 80x25 pages btw? 18:51:41 Vorpal: It's a set of 80x25 pages. Each of those is 2K. There are currently as many as will fit on a floppy. 18:51:51 cpressey, and I don't know how many fits on a floppy 18:52:01 cpressey, because you didn't say which type of floppy 18:52:32 I know I have at least 3 types in this room. Only two of which I can read 18:52:49 ... 18:52:51 the one I can't read is a *floppy* floppy. 18:53:19 Vorpal: You're not funny, interesting or clever by peddling such needless pedantry at that in an attempt to keep the conversation going. 18:53:27 And since he said 486, you know perfectly well which kind he meant. 18:53:32 alise, there are several floppy variants that work in normal "PC" floppy drives 18:53:36 Vorpal: Um. Are you needing to know the exact number of pages the current version has available? 18:53:57 Because, see, I thought you would be satisfied with an impression, an order of magnitude, you know? 18:54:00 Vorpal: And you know damn well that if he meant anything other than 1.44 MB, he'd have said so, it being an ABNORMAL case. 18:54:00 cpressey, no, just roughly would be enough 18:54:12 Vorpal: Then: a floppy-full. 18:54:15 alise, I have more of those old single sided ones than I have 1.44 MB 18:54:26 alise, so no I didn't know that 18:54:39 Vorpal: Yes, you do, probably because your brain optimises for being as much of an edge-case as you can so you have something to talk about. 18:54:42 Nobody else does. 18:55:35 alise, personal insults. How fun 18:55:57 do you really want to take the discussion that low? 18:56:09 It was not a personal insult. Well, it was, but it was not ad hominem. 18:56:11 It was relevant. 18:56:46 alise, I wound say it was highly inaccurate though. Relevant... maybe to some degree. Could have been more irrelevant at least. 18:57:02 You people are seriously the worst getting-along people I know of; sometimes I like to consider the absurdity of a Vorpal-alise collaborative project, the existence of which would cause the world to collapse. 18:57:13 s/You people/You two/ 18:57:23 fizzie, hah 18:58:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:58:10 fizzie: To be fair, he /is/ the stupidest person /I/ know of. (Now watch as he copies my sentence structure!) 18:58:17 I guess that's not particularly fair to stupid people. 18:58:23 ... 18:58:24 Who? 18:58:34 alise, that was ad hominem though 18:58:46 Vorpal: Incorrect again, my friend; *that* was not an argument. :) 18:59:14 alise, yes it was... 18:59:29 No, it wasn't; I merely said it, not submitted it as an argument for some debate. 18:59:46 fizzie, btw I have a new pano I took at university yesterday coming up in a bit. 19:00:19 alise, you mentioned that there was something you didn't like about Factor? 19:00:22 fizzie, mobile camera, but turned out rather well if you don't zoom in too much. Matches up well in all but one place 19:00:52 Sgeo: Uh, I just never got in to the language itself. Maybe I will now. 19:01:00 Slava Pestov is an awesome guy; #concatenative is a really nice channel. 19:01:09 (It's technically for non-Factor stuff too, but it's the Factor channel.) 19:01:26 It's a good project. 19:01:50 * Sgeo mutters something incomprehensible about every image based language thinking it owns .image 19:01:53 Vorpal: Speaking of photography, look what we found from the local IKEA; a TRÅDIG-model cat: http://zem.fi/~fis/ikea-cat.jpg 19:02:02 Sgeo: file extensions aren't owned, Windowser. 19:02:17 fizzie: :-D 19:03:34 It's been doing some interior design improvements to the box (read: eating it) after the picture was taken, though. 19:04:00 Did you buy it? 19:04:10 Woohoo! Factor perfectly integrated with Emacs. 19:04:59 * alise right-clicks Edit on a random word; the file opens in Emacs, scrolled to the definition 19:05:00 Mwahaha 19:05:03 I have infinite power 19:05:24 Vorpal: Speaking of photography, look what we found from the local IKEA; a TRÅDIG-model cat: http://zem.fi/~fis/ikea-cat.jpg <-- what a fitting name. Well "hårig" would have been even better 19:05:27 but close enough 19:05:59 fizzie, http://omploader.org/vNWVyMA 19:06:37 I think I've seen a similar-looking building before. 19:06:52 fizzie, yes but then it was like 2 meter of snow outside 19:06:59 fizzie, and the pano didn't match up well at all 19:07:37 fizzie, I tried a vertical pano 19:07:47 but that is near impossible without some mount 19:09:32 hm there are actually 2 seams 19:10:32 fizzie, btw we will be using RCX in a lab next week. 19:10:50 fizzie, communication protocol lab 19:11:00 so rather strange choice of unit for it 19:11:06 What sort of play-university is that place?-) 19:11:12 though I guess it is a nice and simple protocol to start with 19:11:33 fizzie, hey the RCX was developed at MIT so... 19:11:46 well, at MIT together with lego to be exact 19:12:25 The only "telecommunications" "labwork" (if you can call it that) I did just used a network of six virtual machines or so. But I guess this is a bit lower-level communications-protocol and less networking-infrastructure thing? 19:12:51 Sgeo: btw, the factor wiki and pastebin are coded in factor 19:12:51 fizzie, anyway the IR protocol is probably good for the first lab in the network and communication course. There were TCP/IP labs and so on later on 19:12:57 Sgeo: and included with the distribution 19:13:02 fizzie, there is more later on 19:13:07 * cpressey wonders whatever happened to Pliant 19:13:27 alise, including a non-static website with software seems nonsensical. I assume you mean a URL 19:13:29 fizzie, but I guess since it is a introductory course, they don't want to start off with a too complex protocol 19:13:35 Sgeo: The code ..................... 19:13:40 >_< 19:13:40 an* 19:13:42 -_- 19:13:43 etc 19:13:45 Oh! 19:14:17 Vorpal: We had a "Unix programming" special course; I found something like 16 more-or-less-serious (some *very* minor, admittedly) errors/unclarities in the course slides. 19:14:19 I should probably uninstall WIn32Forth at some point 19:14:28 Apparently Pliant is still around at http://www.pliantcode.com/ and http://fullpliant.org/doc/ 19:14:51 cpressey: what the heck is it? 19:14:54 that is 19:14:57 fizzie, oh yeah, this first lab will also serve as a way to learn *nix iirc. For those that don't know it 19:14:57 why should i care about it? 19:15:10 [[In computer software programming languages history, Pliant is the first attempt to connect C and LISP branches. 19:15:10 It was written by Hubert Tonneau, first published in 1999, and is released under GNU General Public License version 2.]] 19:15:11 ha 19:15:15 like nobody tried that before 1999 19:15:43 Oh, Wikipedia. Thy NPOV shines upon us! 19:15:50 cpressey: so what is it? 19:15:53 like, i know what it is 19:15:54 but context? 19:16:23 alise: I dunno, something you said about Factor reminded me of it 19:16:53 * Sgeo growls at there being no 3xx level chem courses 19:16:58 A language where you can change the syntax and build your own language! Whee! Yeah, never been done before. 19:17:03 fizzie, one issue seems to be they are using non-custom firmware on those. Rather annoying. The default lego firmware is horribly bad. And that is "so bad it is bad" bad. 19:17:04 Vorpal: Several were pretty clear errors, like claiming that to delete a file, you need write permission for the file itself. And that you need to have a "extern char **environ;" declaration before you can use getenv/putenv. 19:17:11 cpressey: Heh. 19:17:13 Pliant does that? 19:17:57 fizzie, was this someplace where you could correct whoever was teaching it? 19:18:14 alise: That's what I understood its schtick to be, yes. 19:18:17 * Sgeo is a major fan of correcting professors 19:18:19 "Pliant is a great language of choice for any of the following example applications: relational database engine, 3D game engine, GMail like web-app, peer-to-peer sharing network, kernel drivers, online web store." 19:18:22 Sgeo: Yes, I think my corrections were credited on the next lecture, even. 19:18:23 Although it's probably rather rude 19:18:25 Sgeo: They probably hate your guts. 19:18:27 fizzie, awesome 19:18:48 It's a great language of choice. 19:18:50 Well, if you correct purposeful simplifications for the purpose of teaching, that is. 19:19:01 cpressey: have you gazed upon the delight that is Plain English? 19:19:12 alise, um, I might have done that once or twice >.> 19:19:26 Sgeo: That's obnoxious. 19:19:27 that's the one with ~1000 words? 19:19:30 fizzie, hm to delete a file you need write permission to the containing directory. Hm can you delete a file you can write to but where you can't write to the containing directory? 19:19:38 madbrain2: nonono 19:19:41 madbrain2: it's a programming language 19:19:59 Vorpal: No. Well, unless you consider truncating it to zero bytes, which is sort-of "deleting" it. But not really. 19:20:00 written in the most warped form of english you can imagine, with a hilarious manual that calls Windows variously the kludge, the whore, etc. 19:20:00 No nested ifs iirc 19:20:07 fizzie, right 19:20:08 and the compiler is written in itself, which is beautifully horrific 19:20:14 and it's meant to cost like $100 19:20:20 but you could get it for free by looking at the js code 19:20:31 and it had cartoon "testimonials" from claude monet, bill gates, k&r, ... 19:20:59 alise: Holy wow. No, I had not. 19:21:12 cpressey: http://www.osmosian.com/ they removed their fun cartoon site and replaced it with this 19:21:17 download the sample application to look at the source 19:21:24 A cartoon testimonial for Monet. That's...oh damn. 19:21:30 s/for/from/ 19:21:33 cpressey: it was because of their sample application 19:21:39 which uses dots to reproduce google image search results 19:21:41 Slereah can hook you up with the actual compiler etc., which is pure fun to use 19:21:49 the editor will ONLY start full screen using an awful comic font 19:21:55 i actually started on a bf interpreter 19:21:57 but it was too difficult 19:22:03 to fight with the syntax 19:22:14 cpressey: Reading the compiler, though, wow. 19:22:17 I may arguably have done that "correct purposeful simplifications" thing back when I got into that argument about *all* floating-point formats being binary (while TI's calculator-floats are BCD); but they were so forcefully insisting on everything everywhere being implemented with base-two fractions and powers of two. 19:22:20 "What do I need to run it? Windows XP or Vista. Yuk." 19:22:22 cpressey: It has raw hex for all the compiled instructions. 19:22:29 cpressey: And the rest is written in that mechanical English style. 19:22:35 Parsing and all. 19:22:35 fizzie, wait a second. That isn't true in general 19:22:45 So really, I am very impressed that they could program something that big and ... well, actually-working in it. 19:22:49 fizzie, the sticky bit messes things up 19:22:53 Like LoseThos. 19:22:56 so you need to account for that possibility too 19:23:41 cpressey: http://www.osmosian.com/manifesto.pdf this thing has the font used in the editor 19:23:45 Vorpal: Yes, I did mention that in the correction. But even with the sticky bit set, the original claim -- write permissions on the file -- is still irrelevant. 19:24:03 * Sgeo wonders whether he should do the Your First Program tutorial despite having read it but not acted 19:24:06 Maybe to get a feel for it 19:24:07 fizzie, indeed 19:24:13 The 19:24:13 program runs on the Wintel Kluge, was written entirely in Plain English, and 19:24:13 re-compiles itself in less than three seconds. That's right. Three seconds. 19:24:15 Sgeo: factor's? 19:24:20 Sgeo: probably. 19:25:30 * Sgeo tries out the deploy tool 19:25:31 cpressey: Oh yeah, and the whole UI system is based on 1/ns of an inch -- I think n=16 19:26:28 fizzie, the result of sticky bit on files seems to vary a lot (not implemented is most common though) 19:26:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_bit#Usage 19:26:58 alise: I. Am. Enthralled. 19:27:17 cpressey: You NEED to see the compiler. They call it "the noodle", IIRC. 19:27:24 Literally that filename. No extension, "the " and all. 19:27:45 alise, "they"? 19:27:55 alise, are there really multiple persons behind it? 19:28:02 How the heck should I know? 19:28:06 hm 19:28:07 They call themselves The Osmosian Order. 19:28:09 good point 19:28:10 It could be a single guy with a split personality thing. 19:28:12 Besides, singular they. 19:28:18 Perfectly valid. 19:28:29 alise, I prefer spivak but sure... 19:28:48 I'd like to believe that it's twenty or so absolutely crazy, unwashed, unshaven people living in one messy house. 19:29:00 "The Osmosian Order of Plain English Programmers is a group of like-minded developers and educators dedicated to the rescue of computer science from the pervasive fog of confusion engulfing it today." 19:29:06 Like the world's most crazy-programming-language-oriented group marriage. 19:29:15 The "group" word does sort of suggest >1, while not being absolutely confirmsome. 19:29:20 fizzie: Yes, well, he could be lying. 19:29:29 Or self-aggrandising. 19:29:42 (She, maybe?) 19:29:48 (Naw.) 19:30:21 Well, osmosian.com is registered by Dan Rzeppa, 610 Scholl Rd, Mansfield, Ohio 44907, United States. 19:31:02 "The setuid bit was invented by Dennis Ritchie. His employer, AT&T, applied for a patent in 1972; the patent was granted in 1979 as patent number US patent 4135240 "Protection of data file contents". The patent was later placed in the public domain." 19:31:14 how strange to think that setuid was patented... 19:32:47 osmosian? yeah that's a classic no? 19:33:46 alise: Uh... I went to a nearby place with Google streetview (Scholl Road itself hasn't been driven on), and got this: http://zem.fi/~fis/scholl.jpg -- I think I'm forced to conclude that The Osmosian Order is a group of extraterrestials. 19:34:03 fizzie: That makes sense. 19:34:23 fizzie: The van and its driver became a being of pure energy when it went any further. 19:34:35 So you can see, you can never reach Scholl Road in this reality. 19:34:38 alise: Uh... I went to a nearby place with Google streetview (Scholl Road itself hasn't been driven on), and got this: http://zem.fi/~fis/scholl.jpg -- I think I'm forced to conclude that The Osmosian Order is a group of extraterrestials. <-- what the fuck? 19:34:39 *So you see, 19:34:50 Osmosian - Alien Species Wiki - Aliens, UFOs, Space aliens 19:34:50 Osmosians are an aliens that look like humans, The name 'Osmosian' is a play on the word "osmosis", the name of the physical process by which a solvent, ... 19:34:51 -- Google 19:34:56 Well there you go then. 19:35:00 http://aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Osmosian 19:35:01 I... see. 19:35:01 It's settled. 19:35:53 Sgeo: use Emacs 19:35:57 FUEL is kickass 19:36:23 FUEL? 19:36:23 I only really like emacs when I'm on a terminal 19:36:30 Vorpal, Factor thingy for Emacs 19:36:52 Sgeo, run emacs -nw 19:36:52 then 19:37:06 o.O I gave up on the deploy Tetris thing 19:37:09 FUEL is the thing that turns Factor and Emacs into Smalltalk. 19:37:11 --no-window-system, -nw do not communicate with X, ignoring $DISPLAY 19:37:11 It just now attempted to finish 19:37:14 But I deleted stuff 19:37:14 Sgeo, ^ 19:37:18 Sgeo, thus, terminal 19:37:23 Vorpal: you are totally misunderstanding him 19:37:26 possibly purposefully. 19:37:34 * cpressey cannot see past the pervasive fog of confusion that engulfs him. 19:37:39 alise, hm? He seemed to ask for "not X mode" 19:37:43 at least to me 19:38:11 cpressey: Huh, Vorpal's message got marked as being sent by you. 19:38:16 * cpressey cannot see past the pervasive fog of confusion that engulfs him. 19:38:39 Vorpal: he means that when using a graphical environment rather than a command-based one, he does not enjoy using Emacs. 19:38:41 alise, i didn't say that.... 19:38:44 Sgeo: you like Smalltalk, yes? 19:38:44 alise, stop trolling 19:38:49 alise, yes... 19:38:58 Sgeo: Factor + Emacs/FUEL = Smalltalk. srsly 19:39:17 alise, right. So running it in a terminal inside a GUI environment is not enough? 19:39:58 Vorpal: please find the nearest dictionary and look up "context", "environment" 19:40:36 alise, he said none of those words 19:40:40 " I only really like emacs when I'm on a terminal" 19:40:58 alise: This compiler, where is it? 19:41:00 yes, unlike you i can read words and interpret them as their meanings, rather than relying on an ultra-literal legalistic view of the world 19:41:15 cpressey: you gotta pay for it. apparently if you email them they'll give it to you. try that. 19:41:21 Slereah has it 19:41:28 alise: Eww 19:41:41 alise, that statement is ambiguous the way "terminal" is commonly used these days. I do not assume that everyone uses "terminal emulator" when they mean that 19:41:43 cpressey: yeah, maybe just ask Slereah for it 19:41:45 since that is generally not true 19:41:53 Slereah Slereah Slereah 19:41:59 alise: Fine. 19:42:05 maybe he will appear 19:45:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:45:53 ais523: Hey, you're not Slereah! 19:46:01 no, I'm not 19:46:15 ais523: we summoned you inadvertently 19:46:16 alise: Crossed wire in the summoning subsystem, I guess. 19:46:17 shoo 19:46:23 ais523, hello 19:47:08 * alise edits the edit word, finds himself in a world populated by newspaper editors who can only say "edit" 19:47:14 hi 19:49:16 I'm still in love with the one line unit test stuff 19:53:53 alise: I love those hats of theirs. Well, visors really. They're cool. 19:55:38 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:56:10 cpressey: wat 19:59:07 alise: I guess I'm thinking of the guys who run the printing presses. 19:59:57 Geez, here I thought this was iconic, but I can't find a single image on google of one of these dudes. 20:00:05 They wear suspenders, too, I swear! 20:08:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:15:52 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:18:06 cpressey, whaaat? 20:18:33 suspenders are rare nowdays though 20:19:00 saw some old guy at university passing by in a corridor today, had suspenders. Noticed it due to being so rare. 20:20:19 hm that is en_GB:braces it seems 20:20:22 -!- madbrain2 has joined. 20:20:34 -!- cheater99 has joined. 20:28:38 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:31:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:32:33 choochter, new here? 20:34:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:37:22 -!- augur has joined. 20:47:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:47:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:52:03 Vorpal: both words work in British English 20:52:11 hmm, maybe not 20:52:16 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:52:16 "suspenders" means something else over here 20:54:48 ais523, what are you talking about? 20:55:07 what Vorpal was saying around 40 minutes ago 20:58:32 wow, why does git not have a command to reset a file in the working tree to match what it is at HEAD? 20:59:06 -!- augur has joined. 21:01:05 aha, "git checkout"; that was rather inconsistent with the rest of git... 21:01:40 ais523: What does "suspenders" bring to mind in UK English? 21:01:43 I'm curious. 21:02:08 "braces" would be things you wear on your teeth to straighten them in NA English... 21:02:29 cpressey: they're an item of clothing that prevents long socks falling down 21:02:39 The "git checkout" thing is mentioned everywhere, though. And I'm not sure how inconsistent it is; it checks out things from the repository into the working tree. 21:02:53 ais523: Ah yes. I've seen those, was not aware they had a name. 21:04:01 I guess the fact that it also does branch-switching is a bit overloady. 21:06:38 -!- Flonk has joined. 21:07:14 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:08:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:10:23 -!- Vorpal has joined. 21:24:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:29:02 -!- augur has joined. 21:38:05 hello 21:38:09 i have a question 21:38:17 why are php related irc channels so fucking useless 21:40:13 because php is so fucking easy to understand 21:48:06 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 21:49:17 * oerjan notes that people on the Infinite Featureless Plane of Death walk _fast_ 21:49:35 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:50:52 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:50:53 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 21:56:10 -!- falsealarm has joined. 21:56:27 hello 21:56:43 -!- falsealarm has left (?). 21:57:48 O_o 21:58:44 very self referential, should fit right in 22:01:19 Is it just me, or does Bochs suck now? 22:01:33 (Anticipating alise response: cpressey: Bochs has always sucked.) 22:01:55 cpressey: Well... it's always been glacially slow. 22:01:56 No, I mean, I can't even get it to boot from boot floppy images now. 22:02:13 Maybe you did something rong. 22:02:19 If you're not using the debugger just go QEMU. 22:02:48 time to make things wright, then 22:02:51 Oh, maybe. Bochs won't even start a display on my Ubuntu laptop; I'm using QEMU there. QEMU on Windows looks like hell, though. 22:04:08 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:08:59 augur augur augur 22:09:11 alise alise alise 22:13:22 The name of the BIOS ROM image file that QEMU loads is... hardcoded? Beh 22:13:38 Oh, no. You can give it a dir name it seems. 22:13:52 Yay! Worked! 22:16:06 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:18:14 cpressey cpressey cpressey 22:18:57 Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover 22:20:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:20:51 -!- madbrain2 has joined. 22:22:09 -!- augur has joined. 22:25:29 * Phantom_Hoover looks at the USSR's nuclear strategy against the UK 22:27:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 22:27:50 Oh, Edinburgh was completely screwed. 22:30:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:31:18 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 22:31:28 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:31:46 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 22:32:19 There are at least 16 assorted ground- and airbursts lined up for it, inexplicably. 22:32:55 For comparison, London only has about 2 more. 22:33:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:33:48 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 22:34:03 Despite having 10 times the population. 22:34:05 Phantom_Hoover_: I would conclude from that, that Edinburgh is where the UK keeps most of *its* nukes. 22:34:16 cpressey, *definitely* not. 22:34:34 Most of them would be in Rosyth and other military bases. 22:34:38 Phantom_Hoover_: I didn't say it was a conclusion that lined up with reality! 22:34:57 cpressey, it baffles me just as much. 22:35:21 I mean, if you wanted to decapitate Scotland, it might be helpful, but that's basically the only good reason. 22:35:57 It's not to kill civilians, since Edinburgh's population isn't even half a million. 22:38:09 Well, a friend of mine says that it's probably due to its terrain not being very conducive to killing people. 22:38:37 xD 22:39:17 Since Edinburgh has loads and loads of hills. 22:40:21 "Damn hills! Our infantry will never be able to get over them. Better nuke that area instead!" ? 22:42:19 No, that's the point. 22:42:40 Hills stop radiation and shockwaves, so it wouldn't be completely levelled. 22:45:47 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:47:17 And ImageMagick certainly is suitable for complex editing, I have used ImageMagick for these things. 22:47:25 So they lined up lots and lots of nukes, to ensure that everyone would die. 22:47:59 While larger cities such as London are on pretty flat ground. 22:49:32 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:49:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:50:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:50:50 If you need a graphical user interface, I have used Microsoft Paint and used the "clipboard:" command in ImageMagick to deal with this. This does not work in UNIX systems, though. So in UNIX systems, what I could do is invent variant programs "imx" (Image eXchange) (normal mode), "imxs" (scripting mode", and "imxg" (scripting mode with graphical user interface). 22:51:27 (The GUI can use a view area, script area, and with three mouse buttons and modifier keys, you can do a lot of these operations, the function keys F1 F2 F3 and so on can also be used to select different mouse modes) 22:51:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 22:52:16 * zzo38 (~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com) has joined #esoteric 22:52:17 And ImageMagick certainly is suitable for complex editing, I have used ImageMagick for these things. 22:52:19 for what things, exactly? 22:52:22 you failed to specify 22:52:48 alise: Any complex things! 22:52:59 There are a lot of things you can do with it! 22:53:08 I have even used ImageMagick for audio manipulation! 22:55:00 dc has a stack for each register, sort of like the STASH and RETRIEVE commands in INTERCAL...... 23:00:47 OK, I have to know. How can ImageMagick be used to manipulate audio?? 23:01:03 -!- olsner has joined. 23:01:24 cpressey: Convert audio data to image data -> apply blur filter -> convert back 23:01:52 I, uh. 23:01:57 I suppose that would... manipulate it. 23:04:03 You tell 'im, zzo38! 23:06:28 alise: Yes you are right, that is one way. 23:06:49 But since ImageMagick does not support audio formats directly, you would need SoX or something else to convert the formats 23:07:05 SoX already has many effects, but not everything 23:08:03 If I ever write ImX (Image eXchange), then I will add in support for audio formats as well as the picture formats, and also add in "Block JPEG" format, which prevents decompressing/compressing the lossy part of a JPEG. 23:08:32 As well as add in some effects that are useful for audio. The DPI of the picture can be used as the sample rate for audio. 23:08:54 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:09:11 "The DPI of the picture can be used as the sample rate for audio." 23:09:11 x_x 23:09:16 nice 23:09:24 * alise laughs 23:09:32 one inch per second? 23:09:40 That's what she said. 23:10:27 olsner: I guess so, that can work. 23:11:00 * alise fixes a bug in Factor 23:11:02 :fuckyeah: 23:12:06 (It is a bug in the Brainfuck implementation.) 23:15:59 I have seen a 2600 FAQ that says that shell scripts with SUID can be security hole if you rename it (or make a link to it), called "-i". Can you fix this by changing the shebang like to "#!/bin/bash --" will it work? 23:17:17 probably 23:17:24 don't make suid shell scripts though 23:17:36 modern kernels don't accept suid scripts 23:17:41 only binaries 23:18:20 Will the SUID just have no effects for shell scripts? Or will it expect the file to be a binary if it has SUID, and say the file is an invalid executable file? 23:18:26 the frmer 23:18:28 *former 23:20:15 zzo38: no, that doesn't fix it 23:20:29 well, it fixes that bug, but not another security bug with suid shell scripts 23:21:05 which is that if you access the shellscript via a path where one of the directories in it is a symlink, then you can retarget that symlink between the check to see if the script is suid, and the shell actually reading the script 23:21:12 so you can get the shell to run some other script suid 23:24:31 ais523: O, that is another thing, I forgot 23:24:37 But now I know 23:25:09 doesn't the kernel just have to hold on to the realpath of the executable to avoid that hole? 23:25:42 AwesomePressions: S-Expression apart from (...) | Base-10 number n followed by n AwesomePressions, forming a list. 23:25:45 3 define 2 id x x 23:25:49 Also known as: AwfulPressions 23:26:00 Variant: AwesomeBinaryPressions 23:26:01 11 define 10 id x x 23:30:53 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:31:54 I have many ideas of things that can be added/changed in Linux, one idea is the /proc/$$/9p/ directory 23:32:51 Another idea is Simple Executable File Format 23:34:15 Another idea is, a way to tell it to run another program with overriding some or all system calls, and possibly some other features too 23:34:37 fizzie: What was the name of that amazing jump game me and oklopol got addicted to? 23:34:50 You had the level 100 code for it, I believe. 23:42:55 "level 100"? 23:43:47 I was confusing this with "100level" 23:44:15 no; it had 100 levels + some bonuses 23:44:27 Wondering if this was some new language for writing games. 23:44:29 Dot Action 2! That was it. 23:45:26 http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact/ 23:45:26 http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact2/ 23:45:33 http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact2_c/ ;; create your own levels! 23:45:37 I think. 23:45:55 errrm 23:45:58 The goal is to get all the dots, cpressey. 23:46:03 You don't need to know Japanese. 23:46:07 Arrow keys move. Space jumps. 23:46:09 It's still loading the /emulator/? 23:46:10 Have fun. 23:46:13 cpressey: It's not an emulator. 23:46:16 It's just fake emulator-text. 23:46:20 It's loading all the levels. 23:46:22 Oh kay 23:46:36 Dot Action 2 is the best 23:46:38 Well, this will take some time 23:46:40 so I'd load that if I were you 23:46:45 Am. 23:47:00 It is really slow from that site 23:47:10 cpressey: http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ 23:47:12 Way, way quicker. 23:47:20 Indeeeeed 23:47:21 SPACE operates the menus. 23:47:37 1st menu item ok? 23:47:49 Yes. 23:47:57 Don't be fooled by the simplistic starting levels. It becomes pure gaming itself soon enough! 23:48:24 This is genuinely amazing. 23:48:44 XD 23:48:46 It becomes... shall we say, almost impossible near the end. 23:49:41 cpressey: Stage 5 is the first "haha wow" one. 23:50:17 k. Made it to stage 2. Will continue later, I'm releasing Eightebed right now. 23:50:30 * pikhq has navigates bureaucracy succesfully 23:50:31 Or rather, past stage 2. 23:50:33 VICTOLY 23:53:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:54:25 Oh yeah, and Enter pauses so you can quit. 23:54:37 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:58:55 I want to do mana symbols like this: \def\R{\redmanalayer\rlap\manasymcircle\manasymred\textlayer} 23:59:57 (Where \redmanalayer and \textlayer are specials) 2010-09-02: 00:01:49 Sorry, that was wrong, this is correct: \def\R{\redmanalayer\rlap\manasymcircle\textlayer\manasymred} 00:03:33 Starting program: /home/ehird/jonesforth/jonesforth 00:03:34 During startup program terminated with signal SIGKILL, Killed. 00:03:34 But why? 00:03:49 alise: I don't know why? 00:04:02 Hmm, seems the -Wl,-Ttext,0 00:05:21 Yap will not render a page with unknown specials. 00:06:52 (Which is OK, since I will write a DVI driver for this purpose, so you won't need other ones.) 00:07:33 One problem I still have is how I should implement text that is stretched only horizontally, and not vertically, in TeX and DVI. 00:09:10 alise: "ZET:"? 00:09:23 cpressey: how long the red dot you just got will last 00:09:39 alise: But what does it *do*? 00:09:44 the red dot stops the electric fences (what everyone thinks they are; I however belong to the "lava that keeps its shape" school of thought) from killing you 00:09:52 Ahhhhhh 00:12:42 Well, Eightebed 1.0 has been released. http://catseye.tc/projects/eightebed/ 00:13:52 Meaning, I get to think about something else for a while. 00:15:19 Gregor: It occurs to me that you may care about the above announcement! 00:16:11 cpressey: But you DEFINED IT WRONG! 00:16:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:16:17 Awww. 00:16:42 "There are no functions in Eightebed." XD 00:17:04 (I know, it's not a complexity problem.) 00:17:06 alise: Functions would change nothing... I explain that. 00:17:11 It's just amusing. 00:17:23 I suppose it is somewhat that. 00:17:33 consists only of the expression ifvalid x 00:17:35 you mean "valid" 00:17:41 WHOO BOY TIME FOR EIGHTEBED 1.1 00:18:30 Oh drat. I just found a tiny bug in the implementation too (in the -t option) so I will probably upload a bugfix. But, uh. Not today. 00:19:18 Bahahahahah @ "runtime support" 00:19:36 cpressey: Legal Issues is my favourite section 00:19:38 We implement this without a GC by stuffing most of a GC into the free function, thereby making it just as slow as a GC'd language with none of the advantages! 00:19:56 Gregor: :D 00:20:17 And when are you allowed to free? Only in an if valid block? 00:20:19 Aww, cpressey/Gregor is such a fun antagonistic relationship with obvious closeted underlying homosexuality. 00:20:24 Uh, I said nothing. 00:20:32 You strange, strange people with your caring about "slow" and your "advantages". 00:21:19 Gregor: You can only dereference in the "safe start" of an if valid block, i.e. before you make any assignments. You can free anytime, but if it's already free, nothing happens./ 00:21:41 Could have made free follow the same rules as dereferencing. Didn't. 00:21:48 cpressey: And if you have an alias that's in an if-valid block? 00:22:24 Gregor: I don't follow, but if I do, the answer is: you need another if valid. 00:23:24 var ptr to int a; var ptr to int b; ... a = b = malloc int; if valid a { free(b); /* exception thrown? What? */ } 00:23:49 The block is freed and both a and b are invalidated. 00:24:04 But you're in an "if valid a" block. 00:24:25 Hm, good point. That could be a hole requiring redefinition of what a "safe start" is. 00:24:33 Up to the first assignment *or free*. 00:25:29 So yes, although you have managed to fit my requirements, I am wildly underwhelmed :P 00:27:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:27:29 Gregor: "You win! But, whatever ;;(" 00:27:39 overwhelmingly underwhelmed? 00:27:47 or merely wildly? 00:28:05 alise: Just my inner homosexual tendencies towards cpressey preventing me from being too antagonistic, right? X-P 00:28:15 Yes. 00:28:17 Absolutely. 00:28:31 You don't want to seem like you care too much! :'( 00:29:29 Of course. The next time a dispute like this comes up, it will instead be settled by match of Greco-Roman wrestling. 00:30:33 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:30:37 Anyway. I realize how little it proves. But it was fun to do. 00:31:00 And, unfortunately I must be off now. Evening, all. 00:31:06 Bye cpressey 00:31:09 oh, were you discussing the memory-safe language again? 00:31:25 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:31:43 yes 00:31:44 he released it 00:31:48 although it's broken :P 00:31:50 Stage 15! 00:32:09 What language? 00:32:19 eightebed? 00:32:22 yes 00:32:55 Really annoying thing about Factor: There are no tutorials for a lot of stuff. The object-oriented stuff seems awesome, but it may be inaccessible to many due to having to dig through reference stuff 00:32:59 Someone should write a tutorial on it 00:33:28 the reference stuff has tutorials 00:33:35 it has no objects 00:33:50 alise, um, well, the class stuff 00:34:03 Sgeo: seriously, go to the reference; go up the directory to the topic (it has breadcrumbs) 00:34:07 GENERIC: 00:34:08 there will be a link to documentation 00:34:08 M: 00:34:09 etc 00:34:12 those are tuples 00:34:42 I thought tuples were the things with slots 00:34:47 >>someslot someslot>> 00:34:48 etc 00:34:54 00:34:56 indeed they are 00:35:08 there are no classes 00:35:23 well 00:35:27 there are 00:35:30 but there's tuple and union classes 00:35:34 and tuples are what you are thinking of 00:35:39 and mixins 00:35:53 heh," If complications persist, another, less contentious name (such as "Microsoft Windows 7") may need to be chosen for this language." 00:47:39 hrm? 00:48:32 Sgeo: eightebed 00:50:03 alise, linky? Doesn't seem to be in wiki 00:50:10 And Google's useless 00:50:12 I am looking at the Kitsilano oscillator. It says it is sensitive to your hands? 00:50:17 Sgeo: See very recent messagse. 00:50:32 Wait, cpressey is the Cat's Eye guy? 00:50:35 zzo38: ? 00:50:58 alise, ty for not making me look through logs 00:51:20 Um, n/m 00:51:29 YW 00:52:29 And I head straight for the esoteric programming category instead of seeing the news 00:53:15 alise: Yes that is what it says, but after adding one resistor it worked 00:53:25 http://catseye.tc/projects/kitsilano/kitsilano.html 00:53:44 Sgeo: the discussion in the logs is quite important though 00:54:29 Now, how well will it work, if you put a speaker instead of LED, and make all capacitors and resistors vary? 00:55:20 There is a circuit at the top that only works with old-style headphones. Is it possible to make a circuit that only works with red LEDs? (And if you put a green LED it won't work?) 00:59:39 -!- Gregor-CP has joined. 01:00:15 I's got a fake Chinese iPad! 01:01:06 Why would you spend any money on that? 01:01:15 * Sgeo decides that Gregor-CP is made out of money 01:01:44 I got a pretty decent wage at MSR 01:02:09 Multiple Sclerosis eRotica 01:02:58 Plus, I bought this off a friend for half its already low price : 01:03:14 *:P 01:03:17 Make the next Microsoft Allegiance! 01:03:54 It runs Android, albeit on a hilariously slow processor. 01:05:14 however slow it is, I doubt it's hilarious... it's probably not even funny 01:05:16 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:05:41 -!- wareya has joined. 01:06:18 Makes me laugh :P 01:06:25 alise, um, that game 01:06:34 Sgeo: IS HORRIBLE AAARGH IM ON STAGE 32 OISJFOIDFGSOFIG 01:06:48 Sgeo: what about it 01:06:51 I'm stuck on the first part of level 1 01:06:58 what 01:06:58 how 01:07:03 Are you sure the construction version is the best place to start? 01:07:08 I want to avoid the fatal electric stuff 01:07:13 But can't jump high enough 01:07:32 The construction version sucks 01:07:35 http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ 01:07:38 Play Dot Action 2 01:07:41 (This mirror is much faster) 01:08:57 Should I bother Google Translating? 01:09:01 nope 01:09:03 you don't need it 01:09:19 Oh, what's the construction version? 01:09:21 This level is not it 01:09:40 http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ 01:09:41 Play this 01:10:06 I am 01:10:17 But what was that contstruction version thing all about? 01:11:47 I think it lets you make your own levels 01:11:48 dunno 01:12:07 WTF is ZET? 01:12:18 Oh wait, let me make a guess 01:12:36 Guess is correct :D 01:12:59 And armed with that knowledge, I go to attempt the construction version again 01:13:23 Sgeo: No 01:13:25 It only has one level 01:13:25 iirc 01:13:28 Play the proper one 01:13:30 it's much better 01:15:29 Stage 5 was fun 01:15:43 of which 01:15:58 i'm on 32 of da2 01:16:46 I screwed myself over on stage 6 01:16:53 (With multiple upside-down dots 01:17:48 me hmms 01:21:57 * Sgeo likes how sections of levels can be timed 01:23:20 I HATE LEVEL 32 SO MUCH 01:24:15 * Sgeo ran out of time grr 01:24:35 ON TO 33 YAY 01:27:22 * Sgeo growls at level 10 01:27:27 I know exactly how to solve it 01:28:10 With 1 second left, I got it! 01:28:55 *1 TIME 01:28:58 TIME != second 01:29:42 * Sgeo can't figure out level 12 01:29:43 erm, 11 01:29:51 THe jump is just a LITTLE too big 01:30:03 35 time 01:30:10 n/m 01:32:50 Stage 14 was fun 01:35:08 stage 16 requires some intellect 01:38:31 Chinese iPad ripoff: still workin'! 01:40:15 Gregor-CP: Awesome. 01:41:37 Y'know, now that I actually have to drive regularly, I have developed *quite* an appreciation for classical radio stations. 01:41:51 ORLY? Do you have a not-terrible one? 01:42:13 I *think* it's not-terrible. It *certainly* sucks less than all other radio stations in the area! 01:42:16 The Portland one is great, the Purdue one is OK. Neither of them have any great ability to stick to themes, they just sort of wander aimlessly over all music. 01:42:51 Classical music has themes? 01:42:53 >.> 01:42:59 Sgeo: Very much so. 01:43:17 CBC sometimes plays classical music. They play other music too sometimes, and also news, and other things. 01:43:21 I also like classical music 01:43:21 * Gregor disappears for fifteen minutes. 01:43:46 Gregor: The one here (Colorado Springs) pretty much goes "Okay, we're just going to go with $theme for the next little bit." 01:44:45 FUCKING FUCKING FUCKING PIECE OF 01:45:05 And it's nice & non-profit. 01:49:42 Gregor: Just FYI: I'm presuming it's a damned good thing I have yet to hear on there something I'm actually familiar with. :P 01:54:29 -!- augur has joined. 01:54:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:54:53 -!- augur has joined. 01:57:30 STAGE 38 IS PURE PAIN 01:59:06 I have one idea, that you could make processor instruction set with no direct jump command, only a indirect jump command where the value of a register is the address of the next address 01:59:33 zzo38: quite a few esolangs work like that 02:01:13 ais523: Yes, although what I mean is something like this: if 02AA is the destination address and 02 is the instruction and FF is the instruction pointer register: 02FF02AA 02:02:00 that's how an indirect jump is done on PICs (you assign to the program counter, which is memory-mapped), but it has a direct jump instruction too 02:03:49 ;____; 02:11:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:17:32 -!- Gregor-CP has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:23:15 * Sgeo has troubles with stage 18 02:26:07 42 is evil 02:31:04 42 is oidsjfodisjgoitjhnog 02:35:29 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:37:59 -!- Gregor-CP has joined. 02:39:26 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:39:27 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 02:39:27 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:46:18 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:46:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:52:01 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:52:01 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 02:52:01 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:16:31 Sgeo: : postpone r> dup , >r ; 03:16:33 i think this is right 03:16:41 works in jonesforth at least 03:17:05 or not 03:17:13 no, it isn't, of course 03:17:21 eh, whatever :) 03:33:51 -!- cal153 has quit. 03:37:30 -!- Gregor-CP has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:38:14 -!- Gregor-CP has joined. 03:45:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:46:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:46:41 -!- augur has joined. 03:55:23 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:56:35 -!- Gregor-CP has quit (Read error: No route to host). 03:58:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:59:30 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:59:30 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 03:59:30 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:05:57 "A+B - in programming contests, classic problem, which is given so contestants can gain familiarity with online judging system being used. 04:05:58 A+B is one of few problems on contests, which traditionally lacks fabula." 04:06:00 whaaat 04:06:01 xD 04:06:08 i guess traditionally lacks score or whatever 04:06:36 I'd be quite worried if it were worth points. 04:07:53 * Sgeo growls at Math being under "Arts & Sciences" at his school 04:07:53 Sgeo: this is an interesting look at forth philosophy, btw: http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/httpd-en.html 04:07:56 if not utterly robust 04:08:04 mathematics is sort of a science 04:11:28 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:11:40 alise: A New Kind of Science, if you will. 04:11:53 >_< 04:12:04 * pikhq leaves to avoid lynching 04:12:07 :P 04:12:16 * Sgeo doesn't get it 04:12:27 Sgeo: Wolfram. 04:12:35 Or: The Source of All Ego. 04:13:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:17:11 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:17:11 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 04:17:11 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:24:03 lol @ "The Source of All Ego" 04:48:52 oerjan: cat compiler /does/ do type checking; evidence: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2319#comment-34783 04:48:57 he mentions things producing type errors 04:48:58 circa 2007 04:50:00 Found a flame war regarding concatenative languages from 2005 04:50:11 Apparently, stack effects weren't automatically checked back then 04:50:26 It's a new thing, with the optimising compiler. 04:51:38 Well. 04:51:39 Relatively new. 04:53:06 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/900 04:53:47 pronunciation is a bit too close to cunt for comfort :) 04:57:22 fizzie: whoever: I discovered how colorForth does interpreted code. 04:57:27 It's just a different, non-green colour. 04:57:33 So there's no real stop-defining delimiter thing. 04:57:35 I think fizzie asked. 04:57:38 Or was it cpressey? 04:57:40 Probably. Hmm. 05:07:31 Sgeo: : fact 1- if dup fact 1+ * else 1+ then ; 05:07:32 >:) 05:07:34 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:08:11 if you have a colorForth-style-; and an if that doesn't drop like the i21: 05:08:12 : fact 1- if fact 1+ * ; then 1+ ; 05:08:48 That doesn't look like Factor 05:09:31 it's Forth, of a sort 05:09:43 the latter would work on the i21 and nothing else :-) 05:09:54 http://www.ultratechnology.com/1xforth.htm is a very good read btw 05:09:55 goodnight 05:09:57 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:16:42 -!- Zuu has joined. 05:25:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 05:37:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:37:18 -!- augur has joined. 05:51:17 -!- cheater00 has joined. 05:54:34 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:58:41 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:58:48 Please read this Article III: http://www.fftw.org/y2k.html 07:13:38 -!- cheater- has joined. 07:13:38 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:24:20 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:29:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:39:17 Twasn't me. 07:41:01 -!- relet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:36:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 09:25:18 -!- Flonk has joined. 10:41:25 -!- tombom has joined. 11:06:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:21:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:26:22 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:16:49 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:06:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:17:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Terminal_Event_Management_Policy 13:24:56 I like the level 1 warning template. 13:25:18 -!- sftp has joined. 13:25:28 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:28:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:54:34 -!- distant_figure has joined. 14:38:19 -!- alise has joined. 14:44:41 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:01:01 -!- derdon has joined. 15:03:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:03:20 fizzie, I like level 1 as well. 15:06:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 15:08:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:09:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:10:13 * Phantom_Hoover_ ponders why GHCi doesn't allow the definition of types 15:15:53 And how Coq does implicit parameters. 15:17:56 Phantom_Hoover_: because ghci executes in a do block 15:18:03 same reason you have to proceed functions with "let" 15:18:06 also, cleverly. 15:18:12 Vorpal: brödrost 15:18:14 With forall? 15:18:49 Phantom_Hoover_: ?? 15:18:53 what has forall got to do with it? 15:19:05 (all function arrows A->B are really just "forall (_:A), B" but you know that) 15:19:13 A misconception, obviously. 15:19:18 BRÖDROST sounds somehow heavy-metallish. (Also I'm reminded of a nice absurdist comic, but it's very Finnish-only, so the point might be lost.) 15:20:07 alise, ah, so how do they work? 15:20:25 Phantom_Hoover_: you didn't know that? 15:20:27 h 15:20:28 oh 15:20:31 i see 15:20:33 Phantom_Hoover_: cleverly. 15:20:40 alise, not too helpful... 15:20:42 fizzie: It means "toaster". 15:20:57 That is the best name for a heavy metal band ever. 15:21:04 alise: I know, but it *ought* to mean church-burning or something. 15:21:09 Phantom_Hoover_: an implicit parameter is filled in when its value is obvious from the types of the others, or something approximating that anyway 15:21:31 alise, so it just does it automatically? 15:21:33 you can use an implicit parameter on the argument specifying a type or component of a type of another argument, usually 15:21:46 Phantom_Hoover_: well, in declarations you can do {x:...} to make it implicit 15:21:53 normally it just sort of tries to make everything it can implicit, yes 15:21:53 however 15:21:55 you can also do 15:22:02 Set Implicit Arguments functionOrDataType [arg arg arg]. 15:22:15 ({x:...} rather than (x:...)) 15:41:28 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:44:22 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:51:05 -!- mr45 has joined. 15:54:13 hi 15:54:20 alise, what about brödrost? 15:54:52 alise, I mean, it seems completely non-sequitur... 15:55:08 `swedish Phantom 15:55:19 Phuntum 15:55:32 `swedish bread 15:55:35 breed 15:55:47 `translate en se Phantom 15:55:50 en se Phantom 15:55:51 alise, or did you ask me for a translation? In that case it means "toaster" (literal translation: bread toaster) 15:56:15 hm 15:56:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Brodrost. 15:56:58 brod is not a Swedish word afaik 16:01:05 `swedish Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers 16:01:07 Meeghty Murpheen' Pooer Rungers 16:01:22 !swedish Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers 16:01:28 Meeghty Murpheen' Pooer Rungers 16:11:29 Vorpal: He already said it means toaster, so I doubt it was about translation. 16:11:56 (Don't have any clue what it *was* about.) 16:12:00 (Away.) 16:13:36 fizzie, right 16:16:42 -!- cpressey has left (?). 16:17:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:18:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:20:08 -!- cpressey has joined. 16:23:27 -!- Phantom_Brodrost has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:23:54 -!- Phantom_Brodrost has joined. 16:26:30 I seriously want to murder whoever pulled the plug on Geocities. 16:29:51 I would murder cpressey for playing hopscotch with Cat's Eye, but he's too lovable. 16:31:00 -_- 16:37:06 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:38:32 Oh, I have a theory. While terminals display block letters, files contain cursive. I say this because it's always "print" to put stuff on the screen and "write" to put stuff in a file. 16:39:04 hah 16:56:45 -!- comex has joined. 17:10:42 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:27:07 -!- augur has joined. 17:28:05 back 17:28:16 I would murder cpressey for playing hopscotch with Cat's Eye, but he's too lovable. 17:28:16 -_- 17:28:19 we actually have a template for your site 17:28:23 {{catseye|path}} 17:28:34 because it moves so much 17:29:04 Phantom_Brodrost: try s/g/r/ in the url, btw 17:29:07 you may be lucky 17:29:32 alise, it's been fixed at catseye.tc for a while now. 17:29:45 yes, but iirc there were a bunch of broken links to the old site on the wiki 17:29:53 so we just replaced every catseye link with a template 17:29:55 and set it to catseye.tc 17:30:08 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Template:Catseye 17:30:14 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Catseye&action=edit 17:31:38 Heh. 17:31:56 cpressey: have you seen PicoLisp? it's an interesting very-small, very-fast Lisp dialect interpreter 17:32:00 http://picolisp.com/5000/-2.html 17:32:20 some interesting choices, like 'a -> (quote . a), '(a b) -> (quote a b) 17:32:22 (explained in http://picolisp.com/5000/-2-3.html) 17:32:45 they base more or less everything on the cell 17:32:55 which is basically a cons with a few predefined car/cdr types 17:32:57 iirc: 17:33:13 cell := ((int | symbol | cell), (int | symbol | cell)) 17:33:24 the 32-bit one is written in C, 64-bit in asm 17:33:38 (except it seems to be some assembler written in PicoLisp; it appears to have if/then/else 17:33:40 *else) 17:33:50 interesting representation of NIL: http://picolisp.com/5000/-2-M.html 17:33:54 "This structure has great advantages. Any proper list (ending with 'NIL') becomes sort of "infinite", allowing to take the CDR as often as possible and still obtain 'NIL' again and again. 17:33:54 Therefore, a function doesn't need to check whether it actually received an argument or not. It can simply take the next argument with CDR from the argument list, and doesn't see any difference between '(foo NIL)' and '(foo)'. This makes interpretation both simpler and faster." 17:33:59 they make it both a symbol and a cons 17:34:56 that sounds vaguely familiar 17:35:01 i wanted to do that with... something 17:35:06 it gets linked a bit (PicoLisp) 17:35:17 but yeah, the language itself is interesting! reading the wiki is fun 17:36:05 cpressey: they have no lambda 17:36:07 they use quote 17:36:09 '((x) x) 17:36:13 -> (quote (x) x) 17:36:30 I think this probably means they use dynamic scope, but I don't care, it's fun 17:36:36 yes 17:36:39 "Why do you use dynamic variable binding?" 17:36:43 http://software-lab.de/doc/faq.html#dynamic 17:37:44 "You mean the funarg problem, or problems that arise when a variable might be bound to itself? For that reason we have a convention in PicoLisp to use transient symbols (instead of internal symbols) ..." 17:37:47 huh 17:37:51 well, it's certainly interesting 17:42:09 Quylthylg has an extra argument to car and cdr which specifies what to return if you try to use them on a nil. Passing nil as that argument would be similar to that behaviour. 17:42:16 Well, would be that behaviour, actually. 17:43:02 But yes, PicoLisp looks quite interesting in its way. 17:43:09 heh, they have no strings, they just use transient symbols 17:43:16 Because PicoLisp has something better: Transient symbols. They look and behave like strings in any respect, but are nevertheless true symbols, with a value cell and a property list. 17:43:16 This leads to interesting opportunities. The value cell, for example, can point to other data that represent the string's the translation. This is used extensively for localization. When a program calls 17:43:16 (prinl "Good morning!") 17:43:16 then changing the value of the symbol "Good morning!" to its translation will change the program's output at runtime. 17:43:40 [[Transient symbols are also quite memory-conservative. As they are stored in normal heap cells, no additional overhead for memory management is induced. The cell holds the symbol's value in its CDR, and the tail in its CAR. If the string is not longer than 7 bytes, it fits (on the 64-bit version) completely into the tail, and a single cell suffices. Up to 15 bytes take up two cells, 23 bytes three etc., so that long strings are not very efficient (needing 17:43:40 twice the memory on the avarage), but this disadvantage is made up by simplicity and uniformity. And lots of extremely long strings are not the common case, as they are split up anyway during processing, and stored as plain byte sequences in external files and databases.]] 17:43:51 then changing the value of the symbol "Good morning!" to its translation will change the program's output at runtime. ;; this is just the greatest, most insane thing i've heard today 17:44:23 [[In an interactive environment (console), transient symbols should appear as an underlined sequence of characters. Where this is not possible (e.g. for representation in files), or inconvenient (while editing), double quotes '"' are used instead of underlining.]] ;; huh 17:46:06 alise, PicoLisp? Hm? What makes it stand out from other LISPs? 17:46:21 Vorpal: *Lisps; and read everything I've said (plus the wiki). 17:46:28 alise, tl;dr 17:46:42 Well, that is not my problem. 17:50:53 cpressey: Their symbols appear to be constructed as '(value . name)/ 17:50:58 *. name). 17:51:06 Well, with some property list stuff on the side, I guess. 17:52:21 [[For the third rule, however, things get a bit more involved. First - as a special case - if the CAR of the list is a number, the whole list is returned as it is:]] That is a bit gross though. 17:52:48 "When a number is used as a function, it is simply taken as a pointer to executable code that will be called with the list of (unevaluated) arguments as its single parameter. It is up to that code to evaluate the arguments, or not. Some functions do not evaluate their arguments (e.g. quote) or evaluate only some of their arguments (e.g. setq)." 17:53:05 It's like Forth! Except LISP! 17:53:15 (That was shouting Lisp, not miscapitalising it.) 17:53:38 Inspecting the VAL of *, however, gives 17:53:38 : * # Get the VAL of the symbol '*' 17:53:38 -> 67291944 17:53:41 That's actually quite cool. 17:54:23 Now you are shouting for Val, but she's not here! 17:55:36 That was a quote :P 17:55:59 Besides, as a typographical matter, Lisp function names may be capitalised (when you can't distinguish them in some other way, e.g. monospaced text). 17:56:02 And mine was a joke. I unfortunately don't have the time to read about and play with PicoLisp either. 17:56:12 Which leads to fun things like saying CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION. 17:56:20 CALL WITH IT, DAMMIT!! 17:56:48 Cool, the REPL actually matches parens and does the "foo" -> underline{foo} thing as you type. 17:57:02 : sdgkopegjser09jt 17:57:02 -> NIL 17:57:02 Hmm. 17:58:42 ? (car '*) 17:58:43 -> 67319368 17:58:43 ? (cdr '*) 17:58:43 !? (cdr '*) 17:58:43 * -- List expected 17:58:58 I guess they only typecheck when they really have to :) 18:01:12 cpressey: Do you know anything about the performance of x86 instructions? 18:02:32 I don't know much about that, but what little I know leads me to suggest that you can't say anything (or at least not much) about "x86 instructions" in a general sense, without talking about a single specific processor model. 18:02:35 alise, I can help a bit 18:02:37 I think 18:03:43 Gone are the days you could cycle-count anything, anyway. It's all about what sort of units happen to be free for scheduling, and memory-access times are pretty much random. 18:04:00 alise, AMD and Intel both have tables over number of cycles per instructions in their modern architectures. As downloadable PDFs. However that is of course not the whole story, there is cache, wb/wc/uc, TLB misses and so on 18:04:08 Well, my question is: are the push-and-popping stack instructions faster than Just Doing It Yourself? 18:04:19 alise, the AMD docs indicate which ones are done in microcode iirc 18:04:27 and also how it stalls stuff 18:04:43 not sure if intel docs do 18:04:50 alise, that depends on which CPU 18:04:52 iirc 18:05:08 Vorpal: They could be slower? Or merely equal? 18:05:10 alise, on many CPUs just setting the stack pointer at the start of a function and then using mov is faster 18:05:19 many modern ones that is 18:05:35 alise, due to instruction dependencies iirc 18:05:43 on %rsp 18:05:44 Push and pop at least save in code size, and it would be a bit surprising if they were much slower than the equivalent manual "decrement and store/load and increment" pair. 18:05:58 Vorpal: well, I'd be setting the stack pointer to something manifestly not the usual stack in this case 18:06:11 alise, hm? How do you mean 18:06:13 hmm, are there variants of push and pop which also take the stack? i suppose not 18:06:32 I guess saving the stack pointer, setting the stack pointer, doing push (or pop), then restoring the stack pointer is slower than the manual way, though. 18:06:38 (Just one operation.) 18:06:46 So it may be a good idea to use it for the main stack but manually handle the return stack. 18:07:37 alise, anyway for the usual "common C function not using alloca or VLA" it is on modern cpus generally faster to increment %rsp by whatever amount you need, then use mov to put things on the stack relative that pointer 18:07:44 no C 18:07:51 -!- relet has joined. 18:07:53 alise, well, this could apply to other languages too 18:08:07 alise, any compiled ones where you know the size of your stack frame at entry 18:08:12 Vorpal: basically, this thing is going to execute a ludicrous amounts of pushes and pops per second. 18:08:13 it being forth 18:08:34 alise, hm... You could probably optimise the code? 18:08:50 What? 18:09:01 Forth is a stack language. Its whole operation is based on pushing and popping. 18:09:02 alise, an optimising forth compiler. Yes I know this is not the usual way to do it 18:09:09 I am merely asking whether these are faster than using mov manually. 18:09:16 I don't need implementation tips... 18:09:16 but you could make one that tries to convert it to using registers and such 18:09:30 an optimising Forth compiler goes against the spirit of Forth, anyway 18:09:35 your code shouldn't be wasting time in the first place 18:09:36 alise, anyway: several pushes after each other will all update %rsp/%esp. 18:09:46 alise, that means they can't be executed out of order 18:09:58 same goes for pop 18:10:00 well, it won't be several pushes immediately 18:10:03 and mixed series of push/pop 18:10:13 it'll be push, push, ..., pop, push, push, ... 18:10:21 ... being e.g. a jmp or two 18:10:22 well 18:10:25 a jmp and incrementing something 18:10:26 or whatever 18:10:44 alise, better to, if possible, update %rsp once when entering the function, then use mov using %rsp for indirection 18:11:52 the mass migration of Digg users to reddit started a few days before September began in the incorrect (post-09/1993) calendar 18:11:55 coincidence? I think not. 18:12:07 alise, this applies to modern CPUs. Not sure where exactly it becomes more efficient. But it push/pop would most likely be better on a i486. And update-once-and-mov would definitely be better on P4 and later. 18:12:14 in between... I don't know 18:12:35 Vorpal: this is between mov, inc, mov, inc and push 18:12:38 (same for pop) 18:13:04 Vorpal: ok, what about "save stack pointer, set the stack pointer to something else, (1 push or pop), restore the stack pointer"? 18:13:09 alise, hm, why could you not merge does movs into an add, then do relative addressing 18:13:09 If you're going to do exactly the pushing operation ("decrement a register, move a word to where it points"), my guess is it'll be better to push than sub 4 + mov, if you can keep the thing in rsp; but possibly not if it's in some other register. (Though I'm not completely certain about that: it's possible register-renaming trickery could make xchg+push+xchg pretty fast.) 18:13:11 that's gotta be slower than a mov-based incantation right? 18:13:30 alise, like >+>>++> would be optimised in any decent BF compiler 18:13:34 by just moving once 18:13:43 Vorpal: as i said, the fight is between precisely those options i listed 18:13:44 and then using an offset to the current position as needed 18:14:06 alise, then I suspect push/pop is somewhat less bad. 18:14:12 fizzie: Specifically, the swap-the-stack-for-one-instruction thing would be when running r> and >r, which pop or push one value from/to the return stack from/to the main stack. 18:14:12 alise, but try both and profile! 18:14:17 Vorpal: no. 18:14:25 alise, ... what? 18:14:33 fizzie: So it would be "pop, xchg, push, xchg" or "xchg, pop, xchg, push" 18:15:48 Well, that sounds somewhat reasonable. 18:16:06 alise, what exactly is wrong with combining several updates to the stack pointer and then use offsets relative where it points? 18:16:07 just wondering 18:16:28 fizzie: That is, vs "pop, inc, mov" or "mov, dec, push". 18:16:39 Respectively. 18:16:52 alise, remember on x86_64 you may put temp data in a 128 byte region beyond the stack pointer. Any signal handler or such won't overwrite that. Specified in the ABI 18:17:03 useful for leaf functions to avoid updating stack pointer at all 18:18:11 alise: "push" is not "inc, mov", it grows the other direction. But anyway. Really, you *could* consider benchmarking this stuff; after you get it working, it's a small snippet to change and run your benchmarks. 18:18:27 fizzie, indeed 18:18:43 fizzie, but he refused to do proper measurements above: " Vorpal: no." 18:18:54 Vorpal: That was just to upset you, though. 18:19:10 alise, no, it was just stupidity on your side. I'm sure of it. 18:19:13 fizzie: Er, right, you know what I mean with the alternative. 18:19:34 Vorpal: You /do/ realise that I've only been actually listening and talking to fizzie this whole time? 18:20:04 alise, strange you highlighted me several times then. 18:20:21 alise, but sure. Be a jerk if that is what you like 18:20:23 Vorpal: Yes; to annoy you. 18:20:56 troll 18:21:08 Indeed. Perhaps you'll ignore me now? 18:21:43 alise, no. That would be what you want. 18:22:01 haha 18:22:31 alise, however I will remember to never try to be helpful when you ask a question again. 18:23:40 As far as code size is concerned, it's a very slight win. "pop, xchg, push, xchg" is 2+1+2+1=6 bytes (or 1+1+1+1=4 if your other stack is in rax, but that doesn't sound feasible) while "pop, sub 4, mov [rx]" is 1+3+3=7 bytes, or 1+3+4=8 if your other stack is in rbp. 18:24:15 fizzie: Yeah; I think I will go with the xchg. 18:24:19 Especially since there's operations like rswap. 18:24:41 Actually, you can swap the top two values of a stack without popping them. 18:24:44 So that will not actually be any longer. 18:25:13 If your other stack is in rsi and you keep the direction flag set properly, you can use lodsq as a single-byte-instruction pop (but push will still be longer). 18:25:45 I think I'll stick to regular stacks. 18:26:15 xchging the top two values of a stack will be faster than popping and pushing twice, I assume :P 18:26:54 I'm not sure about that, because xchg against memory will do LOCK automatically even if you don't put the LOCK prefix in. 18:27:32 But of course you don't need to pop, pop, push, push since the stack pointer won't move, just mov things around, possibly with some offsets. 18:28:00 (Oh, and the lodsq fake-"pop" can only pop into rax.) 18:28:37 True, it's just moving. 18:28:52 (On something like ARM, all your stack pointers would be general-purpose registers and you'd have pre/post-increment/decrement addressing with any register you want.) 18:30:01 (And on a more austere RISC, you'd just have load/store and separate add/sub, and no nonsense about one-register-only pushing.) 18:32:37 -!- Phantom_Brodrost has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:34:47 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:36:14 Gads, x86 instructions are ridiculous. XLATB: does "mov al, [rbx+al]" (hypothetical, since you could normally only [rbx+rax], but anyway) -- "This instruction is often used to translate data from one format (such as ASCII) to another (such as EBCDIC)." Yeah, I do asm-optimized ascii-ebcdic translation all the time. (I wonder if gcc can generate xlat for "unsigned char x, i, *p; x = p[i];" sort of code.) 18:37:45 xD 18:39:36 -!- Phantom_Brodrost has joined. 18:40:09 Anyway, guesstimating performance with a speculative-execution register-renaming superscalar thing is probably something that makes any statemets very context-sensitive ("if you have A, B, C and D, option 1 will be faster; ..."). I couldn't find out late numbers, but apparently already the P4 had 128 general-purpose registers it could use for register-renaming, and my guess is that a reg-reg xchg would be done by that machinery. 18:41:52 Silly name for a Lisp: Lips 18:42:47 Lots of punny names possible for related paraphernalia, I guess. 18:43:12 Ooh, or Slip. 18:44:22 Does anyone know if there are any well-written single-file bignum things? 18:44:26 GMP is just a bit too big for me to be happy 18:44:28 *happy. 18:46:26 I have the worst bignum implementation ever. but it's single-file! (I got sidetracked on a C programming course "calculate character histogram" home exercise, and wrote one with a bignum lib and multibyte character support.) 18:46:59 What license? :-P 18:47:22 I'm trying to find it, but you really don't want to use it. :p 18:47:32 fizzie: No, but I might want to modify it and use it. 18:47:41 Hmm, maybe I can store every number just as a pair of bignums and call it a rational. 18:47:52 (That is, a not-necessarily-reduced rational.) 18:47:58 -!- derdon has joined. 18:49:15 I'm not so sure you even want to use that as a base; it's pretty simple to make a integer bignum thing which uses an array of unsigned ints as the storage format. 18:49:30 I can't recall what the course code was, or what year I did it. 18:50:47 Someone's eaten my bignums. 18:51:04 All of them? 18:51:17 fizzie: But exponentation and the like! 18:51:20 *exponentiation 18:51:34 Is... impossible! Or, 18:51:36 I am lazy! 18:51:48 Say, I wonder what algorithms people use to approximate sqrt() on rationals. 18:52:06 Yes, well, I doubt I have any non-trivial algorithms in the file, if I can find it. No FFT-based multiplications for me there. 18:52:23 Meh. Who needs bignums rihgt now? 18:52:40 Why do property lists exist? 18:53:03 alise, presumably the same algorithms as for naturals. 18:53:17 Phantom_Brodrost: ...For sqrt()? 18:53:29 sqrt(2) = 1! 18:54:01 alise, huh? 18:54:16 OK, naturals -> rationals. 18:54:18 Phantom_Brodrost: I'm asking what algorithm people use to calculate approximate_sqrt : Q -> Q. 18:55:01 Well, ignoring complexes, approx_sqrt : N → Q on numerator and denominator... 18:55:18 Indeed. 18:55:23 And what of that algorithm? 18:56:38 Well, how is it done normally? 18:56:45 That is my question! Sheesh. 18:56:53 alise, fizzie: re performance of x86 instructions: omg yes, with pipelines and prefetching and the cache hierarchy, you just kind of ... guess. 18:57:55 Let's see, a symbol is a name and a value. 18:57:58 Paul Zimmermann, “Karatsuba Square Root”, INRIA Research Report 3805, November 1999, http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/07/28/54/PDF/RR-3805.pdf 18:57:58 Hmm. 18:58:07 I'm basically writing PicoLisp: The Ripoff here. 18:58:13 (It's yet another of those FFT-based algorithms.) 18:58:23 fizzie: no thx 18:58:51 Or maybe not, actually. 18:59:14 alise, for nats? 18:59:25 Anyway, guesstimating performance with a speculative-execution register-renaming superscalar thing is probably something that makes any statemets very context-sensitive ("if you have A, B, C and D, option 1 will be faster; ..."). I couldn't find out late numbers, but apparently already the P4 had 128 general-purpose registers it could use for register-renaming, and my guess is that a reg-reg xc 18:59:25 hg would be done by that machinery. <-- Hm... And still the AMD64 instruction set doesn't expose nearly as many 18:59:27 how sad 18:59:28 Phantom_Brodrost: Yes. 18:59:29 The thing that gets me about optimizing generated machine code in the modern world is, really, how do you *know* your code is faster? A benchmark? Yeah, those're realistic. :/ 18:59:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_computing_square_roots 19:00:27 fizzie, I suspect having 64 out of 128 programmer visible GPR would be a way better trade-off than the small number that x86_64 has 19:00:51 Oho, that's clever. In PicoLisp, a symbol's address is actually one after its name. 19:01:01 (So **sym dereferences it.) 19:01:09 (Since the value comes after the name.) 19:03:10 cpressey, hm yes... higher level optimisations are probably more useful in general for a compiler. Still there are some things you can do at that low level. And both AMD and Intel have optimisation guides aimed at compiler writers. 19:03:28 There's the very famous and very clever Quake "1/sqrt(x)" approximation, but that's decidedly floating-point: float invsqrt(float x) { float xh = 0.5f * x; int i = *(int*)&x; i = 0x5f3759d5 - (i >> 1); x = *(float*)&i; return x*(1.5f - xhalf*x*x); } 19:03:41 It's also a bit on the non-obvious side. 19:04:16 fizzie: Yes, I sort of don't want floating point. 19:04:32 -!- choochter has joined. 19:05:51 fizzie, I think SSEn for some n>=2 has some instruction for inverse of square root 19:06:07 err 19:06:16 that was mixing up Swedish name for the operation 19:06:18 with the English 19:07:44 reciprocal is the English word, invers is used in Swedish. 19:07:53 inverse square root is also used in English 19:07:58 see, e.g. what fizzie just quoted 19:08:01 (The Quake code.) 19:08:05 RSQRT[PS]S; reciprocal square root packed/scalar single-precision floating-point. 19:08:44 SSE dropped the trigonometrics, though; I wonder how they do sin(x) nowadays. 19:08:46 alise, yes but inverse makes me think of f⁻¹ 19:09:03 Then "inverse square root" would be stupid. 19:09:06 It being "square". 19:09:11 alise, exactly! 19:09:22 But that isn't what it is used to mean. 19:10:01 alise, well "inverse function" for most other things mean that 19:10:24 I don't think anyone actually says "inverse f" for f^-1. 19:10:27 f's inverse, maybe. 19:10:27 alise, so it is kind of ambiguous 19:10:37 does anybody say "inverse cos" :) 19:10:46 alise, no you say arccos 19:10:52 but only because it has a damn silly name 19:11:12 "inverse *of* square root" does sound a bit like ^2 though. 19:11:16 arccos sounds pretty hard to pronounce; I'd go with acos. 19:11:24 If you're expanding, might as well say "arc cosine". 19:11:24 fizzie, indeed. 19:11:30 fizzie: But not inverse square root. 19:11:45 alise, arc expands to arcus or something like that iirc 19:11:59 alise, so arcus cosine probably? 19:13:39 Finnish way to read arcsin and arccos out loud is as compound words, "arkussini" and "arkuskosini". 19:14:24 So we can store 4 bytes of a name per word on x86, 8 bytes on x86-64. 19:14:24 And the Finnish name for reciprocal is again very elegant and beatiful: "käänteisluku". (Lit. "inverse number", compare "käänteisfunktio" -- "inverse function" for the other sort of inverse.) 19:14:27 fizzie, similar for Swedish 19:14:32 I wonder how PicoLisp handles longer names. 19:14:43 alise, what is a word on x86-64 then? 19:14:46 fizzie: Are you being sarcastic? Because Finnish /is/ awesome. 19:14:49 Vorpal: 8 bytes. 19:14:56 alise, AMD and Intel disagrees 19:15:07 Yes, well, they're stupid and should die. 19:15:29 alise, great, then we would all run ARM, PPC or SPARC I guess 19:15:31 excellent idea! 19:15:39 Sure, I would go for that. 19:15:54 sadly PPC is dead 19:16:09 and I'm not sure Cell and similar makes such a good general purpose *desktop* CPU 19:16:09 Gah; is there a variation on Emacs' SERVER-START that doesn't start if there's already a server running? 19:16:16 A SERVER-IS-RUNNING-P, or the like. 19:16:19 sure, awesome at the stuff it is meant for 19:16:24 Vorpal: PPC wouldn't be dead if AMD and Intel were dead. 19:16:38 Besides, nothing wrong with SPARC. 19:16:39 alise, well, true, but it is a bit too late now 19:16:48 alise, did I say there was something wrong with SPARC? 19:16:53 Nope. 19:16:56 Just saying that we could use SPARC. 19:16:58 the register window stuff is cool 19:17:08 alise, ALPHA if it wasn't dead 19:17:10 There are open-source implementations, too. 19:17:18 alise, yeah that is cool 19:17:32 ARM's Cortex-A9 does quad-core 2GHz thing; it sounds like it might even be reasonable amount of power in a desktoppy environment. 19:17:59 fizzie: Perhaps... 19:18:16 Apple's (not actually Apple's; I forget who designed it) A4 isn't too shabby either. 19:18:26 fizzie, GHz isn't everything 19:18:33 That's 1 GHz and single-core, but still. 19:18:42 fizzie, pipeline? out of order? super scalar? and so on... 19:18:48 Vorpal: Smarter code. 19:18:52 and efficient ISA of course 19:18:54 alise, that too 19:19:03 Vorpal: ...is the programmer's job. 19:19:17 Besides, most CPU power goes unused these days. 19:19:28 Or worse, wasted. 19:19:46 alise, but I mean, a 10 GHz bf CPU would probably be way less efficient than a 2 GHz x86-64 for almost everything 19:20:01 But way cooler, too. 19:20:16 alise, well yes, but that isn't what most people buying a CPU wants 19:20:26 Are you absolutely sure about that? 19:20:37 It is superscalar, I don't know very much of the other details. ARM's specs page has a DMIPS ("Dhrystone MIPS") performance value, but I don't know how those compare to intels. 19:20:51 alise, either that or they define cool definitely than we in this channel do 19:21:04 s/definitely/differently/ 19:21:05 *differently 19:21:06 weird typio 19:21:07 typo* 19:21:15 fizzie: Let's just compare BogoMIPS! 19:21:28 Anyway, at 10000 DMIPS and 2 GHz, it consumes a whopping 1.9 watts of power. 19:21:59 ByteByteJump is so cool. 19:21:59 uint8_t mem[MEMSIZE]; 19:22:00 uint32_t *pc = (uint32_t *)mem; 19:22:00 for(;;) { 19:22:00 mem[pc[1]] = mem[pc[0]]; 19:22:00 pc = (uint32_t *)(mem + pc[2]); 19:22:02 } 19:22:16 (Needs memory-mapped IO and a way to halt, but still, sweet.) 19:22:19 fizzie: Oh? 19:22:20 fizzie, that is still way less than a P4. Probably way less than a core 2 duo too 19:22:23 fizzie: Just slap two of them together then. 19:22:34 brain 19:22:43 cpressey: brian 19:22:57 Vorpal: Really? Are you sure? 19:23:02 Have you RUN Dhrystone on them? 19:23:06 alise, no. It's a guesstimate 19:23:11 alise, about those 1.9 W 19:23:17 Oh, the temperature. 19:23:19 Well, of course. 19:23:23 Erm. 19:23:24 alise, err not temp. Power usage 19:23:25 About the wattage. 19:23:29 Yes, they're closer to 60-100W. 19:23:58 Vorpal: On the other hand, you can't use it to multitask as your sauna stove. 19:24:01 "Avoid using brk() and sbrk(): the malloc(3) memory allocation package 19:24:01 is the portable and comfortable way of allocating memory." 19:24:02 Hmph. 19:24:22 Core i7 Gulftown models have a TDP of 130W. 19:24:25 alise, well. My thinkpad when both cores are fully loaded (with SSE heavy code) uses like 25-27 W iirc. 19:24:27 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 19:24:29 fizzie: I meant the reasonable CPUs. :P 19:24:35 alise, still quite a bit 19:24:51 fizzie: How much does one of those lovely ARMs cost? 19:24:53 alise, though that includes stuff like monitor and memory and so on 19:24:58 alise, not just the CPU 19:25:01 You could have 100 of them and use the same power. :) 19:25:05 alise: malloc is "comfortable". 19:25:06 alise, when idle it is way less 19:25:09 cpressey: yeah XD 19:25:10 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:25:12 alise, like, 8-9 W 19:25:14 fizzie: Actually, isn't there some big ARM computer that consists of a fuckton of them? 19:25:22 alise, on half-bright screen 19:25:37 alise, still it of course includes more than just CPU, 19:25:38 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:25:46 sbrk() doesn't work well when there's memory in the way, right? 19:25:51 i.e. it won't do realloc's move-shop stuff. 19:26:01 cpressey, random question: how would you pronounce "#"? 19:26:26 Phantom_Brodrost: first thing that came to mind today, honestly, was "octalthorpe" 19:26:45 alise, sbrk is quite similar in many ways to adding/subtracting a value from the stack pointer. But for the heap 19:26:50 cpressey, ...that is what I am going to call it from now on. 19:26:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:27:04 And octalthorpebang! 19:27:07 Incidentally, let's check consumer power supplies; last I looked (some years ago) they were hovering in the one kW range, now... "SilverStone Strider ST1500 1500W"; well, 1.5 kW, then. 19:27:07 s/d// 19:27:19 alise, so it is useless for any memory management on it's own if you will ever free anything except the most recently allocated element 19:27:32 Vorpal: I'm maintaining my own heap. 19:27:53 Vorpal: modern OSes will do it in virtual memory, yeah, instead of allocating real memory for it? 19:28:01 alise, just saying you need to do so with more than sbrk. Or you will get horrible memory fragmentation. 19:28:04 fizzie: there are 2 kW ones iirc. 19:28:11 fizzie: of course, you rarely need more than 600 W. 19:28:12 Oh, I'm sure of that. 19:28:13 alise, hm? well it is of course backed by virtual memory 19:28:17 Soon the gamer-class computers will start to come with three-phase electric power connectors. 19:28:33 Vorpal: I don't particularly want to write a compacting GC, either, so my options are pretty limited as far as freeing memory goes. 19:28:35 fizzie, XD 19:28:37 As in, "it probably won't happen". 19:28:45 So I'll just be relying on the OS to manage virtual memory well. 19:28:54 Soon the gamer-class computers are going to have the souls of 10 children in them for AI. 19:28:54 alise, um. maybe back it by mmap then 19:29:10 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher this is awesome 19:29:17 Vorpal: yeah, I'm considering that too 19:29:28 Vorpal: although not in the way SBCL does since I want to work when overcommit is off 19:29:32 alise: You're writing a PicoLisp, right? You can take the marvelous GC advantage of having all your memory cells be the same size, then. 19:29:41 is there a way to increase the size of an mmapping? 19:29:53 cpressey: I'm writing Slip, which is like PicoLisp except MINE and BETTER. 19:29:54 alise, it won't do anything if your heap looks like (@ = allocated, . = unallocated): @@@...@.@@.@@@@......@@........@.@...@@@....@@...@@ 19:29:57 Unless there's some variable-length stuff you want to do, of course. I should have said "Lisp". 19:30:10 cpressey: Also, I'm not sure it will be. 19:30:19 alise, which is what you will get if you only ever use sbrk and then never fill in the freed up holes 19:30:21 cpressey: Since what about symbols with names >4 or 8 bytes (depending on 32/64-bit)? 19:30:27 Vorpal: Mm. 19:30:33 There needs to be a remmap. 19:30:46 cpressey: Where do the rest of their names go? I am trying to figure out how PicoLisp does this. 19:30:48 alise, there is a mremap. Linux specific. 19:30:58 alise, so will you be writing a compiler? 19:31:07 Phantom_Brodrost: Most likely just an interpreter. 19:31:11 "I am lazy and my CPU is fast." 19:31:12 alise, while the OS won't actually allocate your pages until you try to access them, it won't automagically unallocate zeroed out pages. 19:31:21 alise: I dunno. Maybe they do the ol' BASIC thing where only the first 4 characters of the identifier count :) 19:31:24 alise, for most apps the overhead of detecting that wouldn't be worth oit 19:31:25 it* 19:31:26 I might just use a fixed-size heap. 19:31:29 alise, bah! How will we ever get Lisp86 working‽ 19:31:32 The Scheme interpreter I wrote for our "let's do SICP one last time" special commemorative Scheme course has a copying, compacting (well, of course, since it's copying) GC, and that's "just" 550 lines of x86-64 asm. (It's also probably incredibly buggy, since I wrote it in the last night or two before the deadline.) 19:31:37 cpressey: Die :) 19:31:42 We'll have to kidnap someone! 19:31:43 alise, why not use libgc? 19:31:52 alise, that is the lazy solution 19:31:52 How about ESR? 19:32:02 fizzie: Copying GCs are so yeargh, though. 19:32:10 Vorpal: I'm maintaining my own heap; GCs are like a 30-line thing. 19:32:17 I owe it to my users not to use a conservative collector. 19:32:28 (My users = me) 19:32:34 alise: It's a good choice when you have a deadline measured in hours and are writing manual assembly, though. :p 19:32:38 Phantom_Brodrost: What the hell could HE do? 19:32:49 alise, write code 19:32:54 Phantom_Brodrost: He can't. 19:32:58 Phantom_Brodrost: Name a project written by esr. 19:33:00 "C-INTERCAL". 19:33:06 Yes, which ais523 has spent years cleaning up. 19:33:06 alise, the way you described your GC so far sounds worse than a conservative gc though. 19:33:09 alise, yes, but we like other people! 19:33:13 "fetchmail". 19:33:14 HAHAHAHAHA 19:33:15 HAHAHAHA 19:33:16 alise: If you use linked cells to hold long id's (bear with me) then you get fixed-sized cells and that makes GC easy. Need to allocate a new cell? Just take the next one off the free list. Free a cell? Add it to the free list. Free list empty? sbrk(). 19:33:17 AHAHAHAHA 19:33:18 So we don't want to enslave them! 19:33:22 GC snippet of the day: 19:33:22 Vorpal: it will be good within the heap 19:33:23 .fail: ;; TODO: remove when failure is not an option 19:33:23 mov eax, 0x700f00d 19:33:23 jmp error_sys 19:33:24 just not good for the OS 19:33:31 Failure is NOT AN OPTION 19:33:33 THIS IS AN ETHICAL CONUNDRUM 19:33:46 cpressey: I can't use linked cells, though, because the CDR already contains a pointer to a cell (the value of the pointer). 19:33:53 fizzie, oesnoesdon'tuseintelsyntaxnearVorpal 19:34:01 fizzie: UNREADABLE 19:34:03 HOW DOES THAT WORK 19:34:08 WHERE ARE THE %S 19:34:09 He hates it for ill-defined reasons. 19:34:16 alise, most programs will not free up resources in the same order they allocated them. So you need to try to reduce fragmentation in some way 19:34:20 Let's not go into the Intel syntax wars again. 19:34:29 It's just that one "mov", anyway. 19:34:39 fizzie: I was being sarcastic. 19:34:46 alise, using a bunch of pools to keep the objects similar sized in a given area might work 19:34:57 Vorpal: Meh. 19:35:00 Vorpal: Do you realize that with fixed-size cells, fragmentation is basically a non-problem? 19:35:02 I have a lot of memory. 19:35:07 And what cpressey said. 19:35:08 alise, I think the freebsd malloc uses pools like that 19:35:13 Hopefully everything will be the same size. 19:35:14 cpressey, ah, he has that? 19:35:18 I must have missed that 19:35:28 indeed that is like a single pool 19:35:32 and it solves it all 19:36:01 cpressey: Still not sure how to do symbol names, though. Oh, I know. 19:36:03 Maybe I can have: 19:36:26 ('HELL', ptr), ('OWOR', 'LD!\0\0') 19:36:28 for HELLOWORLD! 19:36:36 i.e., you just keep looking ahead until you get a \0. 19:36:38 alise, you still need some way to store allocation metadata. Like a freelist 19:36:43 of some sort 19:36:52 Vorpal: Well, I'm GCing. So there will be a mark field. 19:37:15 I might even do the wonderful multithreaded mark-and-sweep I keep talking about. 19:37:18 No more GC delays! 19:37:38 alise, just saying scanning for free on allocation would be rather slow 19:38:06 maybe having a map of pages containing at least one free spot would work 19:38:07 Vorpal: Maybe I could use a bitmask. 19:38:23 1101110 means that cells [0], [1], [3], [4] and [5] are available. 19:38:25 that way you need to scan only a small chunk 19:38:29 hm wait not a bitmask 19:38:29 (An array of integers, that is.) 19:38:42 rather, keep a count of free cells for each page 19:38:47 that makes updating it easier 19:38:51 Vorpal: I don't need to worry about pages this way. 19:39:11 alise, well, you don't need your blocks to be page-sized. Just seemed a reasonable chunk size 19:39:27 Eh. Divide by however many bits are in a long, & ...0... it, where the 0 is at the position of the remainder. 19:39:35 Sounds complicated but really just one or two lines of code to update it. 19:39:50 And let's see, if we assume 32-bit we have 4 bytes in each. 19:39:51 alise, anyway lets say each chunk start with a bitmask. And you have a global mask of full/non-full pages. Where each page is a bit 19:40:06 Vorpal: You can store the freelist inside the cells themselves. In a sense, it's just another Lisp list. 19:40:11 So for 4 megabytes, we can store a million cells. 19:40:15 4 megabytes of metadata, that is. 19:40:16 alise, then after allocating you just test if your bitmask for the page is all 1, and if so set the global table as it 19:40:20 cpressey, that works too 19:40:21 A cell is a cons, or a symbol, or whatever. 19:40:25 Not bad. 19:40:33 cpressey: Ah, good idea. 19:40:47 So every N cells has a count of how many free cells there are in the next N cells? 19:40:56 You do need a mark bit somewhere, though, yes. 19:41:05 Oh, of course. 19:41:37 LSB of the pointer is traditionally a good choice, since cells are two bytes long. You probably know that much... 19:41:52 why are cells 2 bytes only? 19:42:03 I mean, at least 2 bytes. 19:42:06 cpressey: LSB of which pointer? 19:42:07 right 19:42:13 I mean, at least 2 *addresses*. 19:42:19 cpressey, indeed 19:42:28 on x86-64 they would be... 16 bytes each? 19:42:30 quite large 19:42:34 each cell I mean 19:43:31 alise: The tail pointer. If you're storing "improper" lists I can see how that might pose a problem. 19:43:32 alise, I seem to remember some lisp(s) did some trick by being able to store lists so that the next element's car was in the previous cdr 19:43:39 as a space optimisation 19:43:44 Ooh, haha: homework exercise 6 of that "course with the bignums in it": "Make a program that reads a file and encrypts/decrypts it into another file. You can invent the encryption algorithm by yourself. If you don't want, you can use this: [description of rot-N, where N is the key, and the description itself even manages to be wrong; it "encrypts" letters A..Z, but does modulo 25 instead of 26.]" 19:43:47 setting some control bit to indicate this was being done 19:43:48 cpressey: Of course I am. 19:44:07 Vorpal: yes 19:44:09 Vorpal: cdr coding 19:44:12 alise: Then you need to find some other place for it :) 19:44:22 alise, going to do that? 19:44:26 Vorpal: unlikely 19:44:28 Vorpal: it's a bitch 19:44:29 right 19:44:37 alise, yes it messes up allocation 19:44:40 yes 19:44:40 and alignment 19:44:42 heh. I was just going to say, "cdr coding is a bitch!" 19:44:44 (cdr cdr-coded-list) 19:44:55 Unrolled linked lists are simpler and often higher-performance than CDR coding (no "tagged pointers"; typically less fragmentation). For short lists, CDR coding uses the least amount of space. 19:44:56 anyway 19:44:59 alise, well messing up allocation is partly a side effect of messing up alignment 19:45:04 Maybe for serialization it's OK. 19:45:49 cpressey, back when memory was a much more limited resource it probably made sense 19:46:07 Merf. I should probably implement a lisp at some point. I mean, in something other than another lisp. 19:46:22 cpressey, in befunge! 19:46:38 Uhhhh not what I was thinking. 19:46:45 cpressey, it would be cool however 19:47:18 Are there any Befunge interpreters out there that implement GC of the playfield? (implement it, not rely on their implementation langauge for it) 19:47:27 cpressey is like Rupert Holmes, unable to escape from his song with Piña Coladas. 19:47:31 'Cos FBBI sure as hell doesn't. 19:47:37 alise: YES 19:47:47 cpressey, how can you GC the funge-space? 19:47:50 alise: Or that other guy, and "Werewolves of London". 19:48:00 cpressey, you can't possibly know if some funge code references it 19:48:03 cpressey: Or Chris Pressey, and Befunge! 19:48:04 Er... 19:48:36 cpressey, or do you mean freeing up memory used by spaces? 19:48:38 Vorpal: Uh. If a range of space is empty -- free the memory for it? 19:48:39 cpressey, if so yes 19:48:56 cpressey: Do you think that a-bunch-of-adjacent-cells representation for symbol names is a good idea? 19:49:01 I'm not so sure. 19:49:16 cpressey, cfunge will free the cell in the hash array backed area if it is set to space 19:49:20 alise: Not for GC-friendliness, no. not so much. 19:49:29 cpressey, it does that by returning it to a pool 19:49:33 cpressey: True. 19:49:34 rather than calling free() 19:49:38 Vorpal: cell-by-cell? 19:49:54 Vorpal: does it ever call free() on them? 19:49:55 I'm reading PicoLisp's source and then making sure to forget the exact code so I don't violate the GPL. 19:50:02 cpressey, well it allocates the hash cells from some internal pools. It just returns those to it 19:50:21 cpressey, and no it doesn't free up pools if an entire pool would ever become empty 19:50:28 -!- mr45 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:50:43 Vorpal: So if I have a Befunge program which p's a # into (0,0), then erases it and p's # into (0,1), etc, etc, will cfunge eventually run out of memory? From what you say it sounds like the answer is "yes". 19:50:44 cpressey, still, many programs fit neatly inside the static backed area around 0,0 19:50:56 cpressey, no it won't 19:51:11 cpressey, because it will put the freed up hash entry into the free list 19:51:19 cpressey, and it will use that before allocating new pools :P 19:51:24 #undef bool 19:51:24 typedef enum {NO,YES} bool; 19:51:27 -- PicoLisp 19:51:42 typedef struct cell { // PicoLisp primary data type 19:51:43 struct cell *car; 19:51:43 struct cell *cdr; 19:51:43 } cell, *any; 19:51:43 Huh. 19:51:44 Vorpal: k. 19:51:50 So it really is just two bytes. 19:51:51 How does that work? 19:52:02 Vorpal: But if you make a Befunge program that uses four gigabytes of space for a while, then erases almost everything, you won't return the uselessly allocated gigabytes to the system, right? 19:52:11 * alise looks at their GC 19:52:32 *(word*)&cdr(p) &= ~1; 19:53:08 cpressey, here: 19:53:09 typedef union memory_block { 19:53:09 struct s_fspace_hash_entry data; 19:53:09 union memory_block *next_free; 19:53:09 } memory_block; 19:53:13 cpressey: I am not sure that makes sense. 19:53:20 cpressey: Although, wait. 19:53:26 cpressey: It does if you just use 31-bit integers. 19:53:32 cpressey, chunks of those are used. And a free list 19:53:49 typedef struct heap { 19:53:49 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:53:49 cell cells[CELLS]; 19:53:49 struct heap *next; 19:53:49 } heap; 19:53:50 Vorpal: But if you make a Befunge program that uses four gigabytes of space for a while, then erases almost everything, you won't return the uselessly allocated gigabytes to the system, right? <-- no, but I have yet to see such a program in practise 19:53:50 Interesting. 19:54:07 fizzie, in practise here means "not specifically made as a benchmark" 19:54:18 There are no Befunge programs in practice. 19:54:23 Apart from fungot. 19:54:23 ^source 19:54:24 alise: those who did see it a workman, a servant, and the moon is above and the clouds of the sky and fnord itself in the birth of my grandmother and fnord uncle might be sheer fancy on my part proposed, for his eyes were irresistibly drawn. and then my fancy reverted to the locale as i reflected that the excitant folklore was undoubtedly more universal in the past. 19:54:24 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 19:54:28 Apart from fungot. 19:54:28 alise: sometimes heard today, fnord by extensive scientific interests and aided by large numbers of fishing boats from gloucester, made a thorough and really significant digest. average people 19:54:28 I said. 19:54:39 alise, same second 19:54:41 *shrug* 19:55:28 ^style 19:55:29 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 19:55:31 ah 19:55:38 Vorpal: fungot in some sense; it would be "nice" if when an evil IRC user makes a space-wasting Underload program, it'd return the wasted space to the system after the program's been finished. (Not that it's a problem in practice, since there's a size limit for the Underload stack.) 19:55:39 fizzie: the lovecraft library wishes to extend its gratitude to eulogio garca recalde for transcribing this text. he had to fnord had to get me in a thin envelope of fnord metal. he had counted about thirty when a sound reached him very fnord and 19:55:57 fizzie, yeah and probably some user will do it again 19:56:05 fizzie, and then it will already have it allocated 19:56:06 fizzie, :P 19:56:35 fizzie, anyway it is tricky, since the used cells might be spread out 19:56:38 over the blocks 19:56:55 fizzie, in fact, I would say it is rather likely 19:57:32 Yes, though if you allocate in pages, you could opportunistically free pages that contain only free'd pointers, if ever such occur. (It'd be a bit annoying to go through the free-list removing those, though.) 19:57:50 6824k VSZ, 5328k resident; it's not a very memory-intensive process there. 19:57:58 fizzie, yes, and checking for that condition would incur some overhead 19:58:13 fizzie, which for the majority of the cases would be non-useful 19:58:40 ^ul (foo)(~:*~:^):^ 19:58:40 ...too much stack! 19:58:43 fizzie, anyway, let me check how much I allocate at once 19:58:44 For something even smaller, download miniPicoLisp.tgz. It is a minimal version, without support for databases, UTF-8, bignums, IPC, networking and other system-dependent functions. A kind of "pure" PicoLisp (not "pure Lisp"!). It supports the full PicoLisp language, but runs faster, and uses even less memory space. It should also not be restricted to Unix. In addition, it compiles and runs also on 64-bit systems. 19:58:48 Sweet 19:59:01 7952k virtual, 6408k resident now. 19:59:26 #define WORD ((int)sizeof(long)) 19:59:26 #define BITS (8*WORD) 19:59:28 I... what? 19:59:30 Oh, I see. 19:59:33 (I can't recall my underload stack limits.) 19:59:49 Ooh, not using CHAR_BIT, how dreary! 19:59:57 fizzie, more than a page at a time I think 20:00:20 A conceptual "page", anyway; a biggish blob. 20:00:58 (I wasn't expecting you to sysconf(_SC_PAGESIZE) the allocation size.) 20:01:22 lulz CHAR_BIT. 20:02:04 fizzie, I think each hash entry is 4*8 bytes or something like that (x,y,value,next-in-same-bucket) 20:02:09 fizzie, possibly a bit more 20:02:29 #define val(x) ((x)->car) ;; huh 20:02:32 each chunck is 4096 hash entries 20:02:36 fizzie, so yeah more than a page 20:02:56 #define EVAL(x) (isNum(x)? x : isSym(x)? val(x) : evList(x)) 20:02:57 haha 20:03:37 fizzie, that is of course assuming a 64-bit funge 20:03:41 cpressey: ping 20:03:46 fizzie, x,y,value would be smaller otherwise 20:04:15 while next-in-same-bucket would depend on pointer size 20:04:35 alise, where is that code from? 20:04:43 Vorpal: miniPicoLisp 20:04:54 alise, that's an absurd name 20:05:03 it's a smaller version of PicoLisp. :P 20:05:13 alise, yeah but pico already implies it is small... 20:05:23 alise, it should be FemtoLisp or something 20:06:28 Speaking of which, CHAR_BIT is indeed 8 in the TI C64xx. I guess they fake byte-addressing, then, since the hardware is definitely unable to do it. (Though it admittedly does use byte-indexed pointers, so that for all pointer values the LSB is 0.) 20:06:47 Maybe there was in fact some special unaligned-read op in there. 20:10:37 Oh, yes, LDNW/LDB and such. (Whose idea it was to make the instruction set reference PDF not include the actual instructions in the PDF table-of-contents metadata? There's just chapter 3.11, "Instruction Descriptions", page 87, and the next thing in the TOC is chapter 4, "Pipeline", page 509.) 20:13:24 (There's also lots of hyperlinks, but no single instruction index. There's six separate "list of instructions executing in the [foo] functional unit" lists (with links to descriptions), but between each list there's ten pages of opcode encoding tables. It's like it's designed to be as difficult as possible to look up opcodes by name.) 20:14:24 (I'm wondering if TI's expensive and sucky -- well, it *was* sucky last I saw it -- IDE has some sort of instruction lookup feature, and therefore they've left it out of these freely downloadable PDFs, so that it's not competing with the IDE docs.) 20:36:22 -!- Phantom_Brodrost has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:38:23 -!- Phantom_Brodrost has joined. 20:43:40 -!- Behold has joined. 20:45:23 -!- sshc_ has joined. 20:45:30 -!- iGO has joined. 20:46:36 -!- iGO has quit (Client Quit). 20:46:45 -!- iGO has joined. 20:47:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:47:41 -!- sshc has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:47:49 -!- cheater- has quit (Excess Flood). 20:47:57 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:48:01 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:48:26 -!- cheater- has joined. 20:50:02 -!- iGO has quit (Client Quit). 20:50:31 -!- iGO has joined. 21:00:58 iGO, you do indeed. 21:01:20 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 21:04:25 xD 21:17:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:39:41 -!- Phantom_Brodrost has changed nick to Vonlebio. 21:41:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:45:37 -!- tombom has joined. 21:45:41 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:46:07 -!- augur has joined. 21:46:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:50:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 21:50:18 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:50:20 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:53:50 -!- iGO has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:58:17 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:04:39 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:10:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:15:16 -!- olsner has joined. 22:20:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:23:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:27:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 22:32:33 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:34:23 Maybe I should allow Enhanced CWEB to ignore a shebang line at the top of a file, so that it can be used on Hackiki 22:36:18 Maybe. 22:36:53 Do you think it is good idea? 22:37:31 You should make a Hackiki on the esolang, such as /hackiki/ directory instead of /wiki/ to tell differerence 22:37:50 And also allow Hackiki files and MediaWiki files to be able to read each-other (but not write) 22:37:59 * Phantom_Hoover_ ponders whether we could create a BANCStar-oid. 22:38:25 And put a field in the MediaWiki account to associate them with a OpenID, to be used with Hackiki. 22:38:38 Phantom_Hoover_: I was thinking about the same idea in the past. 22:39:00 Well... it would need UI capabilities, to keep to BANCStar's spirit. 22:41:40 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes I think you might be correct, and you would do it in the strange way that BANCStar does it. 22:41:56 Well, we don't *know* the strange way BANCStar did it. 22:42:22 We know the syntax and about 5 conditional instructions. 22:44:30 Oh, and the scoping rules. 22:45:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:45:46 Phantom_Hoover_, BANCStar-oid. <-- it had oids? 22:45:57 It did not, but we should make one. 22:46:16 Phantom_Hoover_, do you mean oids as in SNMP? 22:46:49 So just guess and see if the example program is sensible in the way that you guessed. 22:46:56 No, I mean as in something similar enough that you could confuse them without close inspection. 22:47:29 Phantom_Hoover_, why oids though? There are a lot of other stuff you could think of putting in a bankstar context 22:47:34 Phantom_Hoover_, so why oids 22:47:59 If it is done in a way that the example program is still a sensible program (even if it does not do the same thing as before), then it can be confuse them even with close inspection. 22:48:14 Vorpal, "-oid"? Prefix I use to indicate close similarity, per the English prefix? 22:48:27 *suffix 22:48:27 Phantom_Hoover_, oh 22:48:49 oerjan, I always get them confused. 22:48:58 Phantom_Hoover_, to me oid = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_identifier 22:49:05 Phantom_Hoover_, thus the confusion 22:49:19 oic 22:49:24 Vorpal, too much SE, obviously. 22:49:29 oerjan, that pun was so terrible 22:49:33 Phantom_Hoover_, SE? 22:49:34 thank you :D 22:49:54 oerjan, btw what does the c stand for? care? 22:49:59 Vorpal, Software Engineering? 22:50:02 Phantom_Hoover_, ah 22:50:26 Vorpal, see. 22:50:26 Phantom_Hoover_, well SNMP is to me the very epitome of excessive software engineering! 22:50:41 Phantom_Hoover_, should be ois :/ 22:50:49 Vorpal, it's phonetic. 22:50:56 Phantom_Hoover_, yeah, I don't like that 22:51:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:51:44 Vorpal, the whole acronym is phonetic that way, which is rather neat. 22:51:46 Phantom_Hoover_, OIDs are used in X.509 certs too 22:51:54 again too much software engineering 22:54:03 So anyway, http://reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html is the sum total of all accessible information on BANCStar. 22:56:58 I made a backup of that HTML page. 22:59:18 If there was any consistency in the instructions, that would help... 22:59:40 3001,,, and 3001,lots of numbers? 22:59:54 So is it variadic or what? 23:01:19 3001 is a block conditional, so maybe 3001,,, is the end of the block 23:01:48 Genius! 23:01:59 But what are the other 4 numbers for? 23:02:34 Ther are only 3 other numbers? 23:02:44 There are! 23:03:10 Maybe there is the number of the constant/variable, the number indicating the comparison type, and the value to compare it with 23:03:38 Ah, yes. 23:04:01 * Phantom_Hoover_ keeps viewing this from too much of an assembly perspective 23:05:54 * Phantom_Hoover_ → sleep 23:07:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:13:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:14:37 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:31:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:34:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:59:19 http://sprunge.us/BCVI 2010-09-03: 00:00:13 After I write more, I can test it to see if the example programs will run 00:06:55 Zoiks 00:07:13 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Yes, "Zoiks".). 00:08:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Zurrr). 00:15:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:26:33 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:26:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:27:18 -!- wareya has joined. 00:41:47 -!- alise has joined. 01:18:47 Gaah, Dot Action 2 is so impossible. 01:21:52 Um 01:21:58 Does it not save your place? 01:22:06 I'm stuck with level 1 again 01:23:39 *sigh* McCain proposing a bill that would allow imprisonment without trial. 01:24:04 Apparently he liked his time as a prisoner of war so much that he feels everyone should live it. 01:25:23 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:26:17 Sgeo: You need to write down the save code. 01:26:24 From the level selection screen; the NNN-NNN. 01:26:30 "(3) INAPPLICABILITY OF CERTAIN STATEMENT AND RIGHTS- A individual who is suspected of being an unprivileged enemy belligerent shall not, during interrogation under this subsection, be provided the statement required by Miranda v. Arizona (384 U.S. 436 (1966)) or otherwise be informed of any rights that the individual may or may not have to counsel or to remain silent consistent with Miranda v. Arizona." 01:26:32 (Second menu item to enter one.) 01:26:37 I... Don't think that actually works. 01:26:40 pikhq: Ha. 01:26:58 Sgeo: I have a code for 55. 01:27:02 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 01:27:04 But you're not getting iiit~ 01:28:12 alise: Yeah, the opinion of the court in Miranda v. Arizona was that absolutely no evidence from an interrogation is admissible in any court, civil or otherwise, unless the "Miranda rights" are told to them. 01:29:42 Soooo... Yeah. Doesn't work unless they want to produce a giant pile of BS that the judge will laugh out of court. 01:30:18 "An individual, including a citizen of the United States, determined to be an unprivileged enemy belligerent under section 3(c)(2) in a manner which satisfies Article 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War may be detained without criminal charges and without trial for the duration of hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners in which the individual has engaged, or which the individual has 01:30:38 Whoa, Google own reCAPTCHA. 01:30:44 Since about a year ago. 01:30:44 And *that* just violates almost the entire US Bill of Rights in a single long sentence. 01:30:49 Impressive, but dang. 01:30:51 http://www.google.com/recaptcha 01:31:51 "9) UNPRIVILEGED ENEMY BELLIGERENT- The term `unprivileged enemy belligerent' means an individual (other than a privileged belligerent) who-- 01:31:54 (A) has engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; 01:31:57 (B) has purposely and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; or 01:32:00 (C) was a part of al Qaeda at the time of capture." 01:32:11 Sooo. I hereby declare Congress to be code for al Qaeda. 01:32:23 And shall detain them in the Capitol. 01:41:49 Oh, awesome. 01:42:39 Dang it, I keep missing a dot in level 20 01:42:44 DoJ is suing Arpaio. 01:45:22 * Sgeo lols at stage 22 01:49:17 WTF at Stage 23 01:52:15 * Sgeo wtfs at stage 24 01:52:44 Sgeo: 48 is the hardest so far 01:52:45 apart from 55 01:52:51 which appears to be impossible in the time given :) 01:52:52 How about the one with 1 time?! 01:53:33 I either fry on the upper yellow, or run out of time 01:53:47 Finally 01:54:02 Like that. :) 01:55:35 25 was fun 01:57:23 55 I actually have no idea what you have to do, past getting the first green block. 02:00:38 Sgeo: what are you on now? 02:00:46 Taking a break from it 02:00:50 Around 27 I think 02:01:07 Did you note your save code> 02:01:08 *code? 02:01:25 Yes 02:01:52 27 02:11:25 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 02:13:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:34:40 alise, cheat codes: http://jayisgames.com/archives/2007/04/dot_action_2.php#walkthrough 02:34:50 Sgeo: Fuck that shit. 02:35:05 Well, I'm skipping level 27 02:37:12 Sgeo: Ha. You'll find much harder ones and end up skipping the entire game. 02:37:14 27 is easy. 02:37:27 ?! 02:37:44 27 is utterly trivial 02:37:48 if you can't do it you have no hope 02:38:01 just go in the middle 02:38:27 ... 02:38:35 Why are you saying tons of punctuation? 02:38:46 @# 02:39:34 27 done 02:39:37 did 28 already 02:39:43 Fighting 29 02:41:34 Dangit, missed one 02:42:04 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:48:32 -!- augur has joined. 03:35:45 -!- comex has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 03:35:45 -!- comex_ has joined. 03:38:49 Why can't I run bsnes at full speed any more? D: 03:40:38 Apparently the answer is: X went "fuck you". 03:53:27 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:57:51 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:58:10 I made the BytePusher VM program, and it works. 03:58:39 But I have to wait 14 minutes to try the second example program. 03:59:18 * Sgeo has a Factor project to do! 04:03:55 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/logo.png 04:08:09 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 04:10:49 Audio is not implemented yet. 04:12:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 04:12:39 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 04:14:03 I have just testsed the second program too, and the second program also works. 04:21:59 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/ 04:22:19 (I have included both example programs in the .ZIP archive so that you do not have to use RapidShare) 04:25:16 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:25:17 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:28:01 -!- EgoBot has joined. 04:28:07 -!- HackEgo has joined. 04:29:57 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 04:39:31 -!- mtve has joined. 04:54:15 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:19:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:20:21 -!- augur has joined. 05:34:48 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:49:41 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:06:37 -!- cheater99 has joined. 07:08:20 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 07:13:31 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:14:54 -!- cheater00 has joined. 07:16:50 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:17:55 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:17:55 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 07:17:55 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:23:10 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:32:17 -!- comex_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:34:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:35:31 -!- comex has joined. 07:43:47 -!- relet1 has joined. 07:45:16 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:45:48 -!- relet1 has changed nick to relet. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:05:52 -!- augur has joined. 08:06:02 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:06:19 -!- myndzi has joined. 08:12:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:41:55 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:53:39 -!- cheater00 has joined. 09:08:02 -!- tombom has joined. 09:10:10 -!- choochter has joined. 09:11:54 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:12:58 -!- augur has joined. 09:13:51 -!- choochter has quit (Client Quit). 09:34:30 -!- choochter has joined. 09:50:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:00:57 it's in german, but the code vs times comparisons speak for themselves 10:00:59 http://www.drweb.de/magazin/schneller-php-schneller/ 10:07:08 Also, Google translate is somewhat hilarious. 10:07:11 "D. grinding for, foreach, while (performance gain 15-30%) 10:07:11 Es ist falsch, pauschal zu behaupten, while ist schneller als zum Bespiel foreach. It is wrong to say a flat rate, while faster than the examples foreach. Oder umgekehrt. Or vice versa. Es kommt immer auf die Art des Objekts, die der Befehl zu schleifen hat. It all depends on the nature of the object to the grind, the command has." 10:07:21 Gah, it pastes both versions. 10:07:42 "It is wrong to say a flat rate, while faster than the examples foreach. Or vice versa. It all depends on the nature of the object to the grind, the command has." 10:07:47 Anyway, lovely verb choice there. 10:07:55 GRIND that LOOP, PEON. 10:17:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:37:09 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:50:08 yeah 10:50:14 he's loopgrinding 11:09:23 -!- cheater99 has joined. 11:19:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:40:28 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:14:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:55:20 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:55:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:57:34 -!- comex has joined. 13:01:51 fungot 13:01:54 Phantom_Hoover: poe's tales, of which he had cultivated with such singular results. it was, they averred, as though wounded by some stray shot. the beast turned its head in my direction and the eyes fell open, disclosing the repulsively rotten fangs of the degenerate joe slater. i shivered as i wondered why i did not fnord killing four and finally succeeding in the liberation of the monster. those victims who could recall the e 13:02:18 * Phantom_Hoover wonders who Joe Slater is. 13:02:52 -!- amca has joined. 13:03:18 -!- amca has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:09:26 Phantom_Hoover: He's a degenerate, with repulsively rotten fangs. 13:10:12 "His name, as given on the records, was Joe Slater, or Slaader, and his appearance was that of the typical denizen of the Catskill Mountain region; one of those strange, repellent scions of a primitive Colonial peasant stock whose isolation for nearly three centuries in the hilly fastnesses of a little-traveled countryside has caused them to sink to a kind of barbaric degeneracy, rather than advance with their more fortunately placed brethren of the thickly set 13:10:12 tled districts." 13:11:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:12:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:12:34 ^style 13:12:34 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 13:12:56 that explains it 13:13:47 He appears to have been an early-20th century footballer. 13:14:33 "The man himself was pitiably inferior in mentality and language alike; but his glowing, titanic visions, though described in a barbarous disjointed jargon, were assuredly things which only a superior or even exceptional brain could conceive." 13:15:25 Well, that's your average footballer. 13:15:31 XD 13:18:55 fungot: Can you tell us more about what happened to Joe? 13:18:56 fizzie: a cowed and cringing satellite in the fnord fnord firm to the house in darkness but for the glare of the fnord 13:19:13 I'm not sure if that's good or bad. 13:19:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 13:20:15 fungot, Wikipedia says he was killed in WWI. Is this true? 13:20:16 Phantom_Hoover_: it was a gentle daylight rain that awaked me front my stupor in the brush-grown railway cut, and among them was lore of a golden valley that led to old world wonders. by night the outer harbour was cleared, and late passengers watched the stars twinkling above an unpolluted ocean. 13:20:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:21:11 Actually, he was killed because he was "unfit to bear the active intellect of cosmic entity. His gross body could not undergo the needed adjustments between ethereal life and planet life." 13:21:36 Ah, so there it was hushed up. 13:21:41 Cosmic entities should have more sense than picking footballers. 13:22:50 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:23:02 Evidently. 13:23:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:23:28 Obviously they thought that understanding the offside rule was a sign of high mental calibre. 13:27:15 Phantom_Hoover_, XD 13:34:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:36:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 13:36:37 Disclaimer: I actually do understand the offside rule. 13:38:00 do you mean the football/soccer rule, or the indentation rule? 13:38:10 The football rule. 13:39:15 What's the indentation rule? 13:48:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:48:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 13:59:08 it's a common nickname AFAIK for the rule Haskell uses 13:59:21 where you can line up a loop (or other control structure) body with the first line 14:02:01 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:02:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:03:37 -!- sftp has joined. 14:06:29 -!- derdon has joined. 14:07:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 14:21:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:21:37 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:22:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:23:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 14:32:43 ais523, that is strange... The haskell rule is actually quite easy to understand. 14:33:04 it's more complicated than the rules for pretty much any other lang... 14:33:22 while I never understood the football rule. Though, I can't say I spent much time trying to understand the football rule 14:33:38 football just doesn't interest me very much 14:34:05 ais523, hm possibly. 14:34:51 -!- relet has joined. 14:41:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:45:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:54:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 15:05:57 -!- augur has joined. 15:10:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:10:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 15:13:05 ais523: It's more complex than the rules for any other language, but it's more *natural* than most other such rules. 15:13:29 I rather like it, but I see how people could be confused 15:14:14 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:25:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:25:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 15:33:39 -!- teuchter has joined. 15:35:32 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:42:05 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:42:17 MISTER PRESSER 15:42:21 Er, PRESSEY 15:49:06 XD 15:51:39 -!- choochter has joined. 15:51:53 -!- tombom_ has joined. 15:51:58 Ah, He who Choochts. 15:52:27 -!- teuchter has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:54:55 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:02:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:02:51 -!- cpressey1 has joined. 16:03:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 16:05:25 -!- Ilari_an1rcomp has joined. 16:05:43 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:05:43 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:07:09 -!- teuchter has joined. 16:09:12 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:09:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:09:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 16:09:51 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:20:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:21:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 16:23:49 -!- choochter has joined. 16:24:15 -!- derdon has joined. 16:26:33 -!- teuchter has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:31:52 -!- cpressey1 has changed nick to cpressey. 16:40:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:53:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 17:10:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:17:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:26:38 -!- madbrain2 has joined. 17:40:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:41:00 -!- cheater99 has joined. 18:02:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:09:23 -!- augur has joined. 18:18:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 18:18:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:38:09 -!- cpressey has left (?). 18:38:43 hm 18:39:39 http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/us2010atbj.php#details says "Depth16.1 km (10.0 miles) (poorly constrained)" and "Location Uncertaintyhorizontal +/- 16.5 km (10.3 miles); depth +/- 64.6 km (40.1 miles)". So that earth quake could be located far about the ground then? XD 18:39:56 poorly constrained indeed XD 18:45:20 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:45:21 A skyquake. 18:45:38 fizzie, indeed. 18:52:53 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:55:17 -!- nooga has joined. 18:55:34 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 18:58:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:01:27 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:04:24 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:05:04 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 19:05:27 -!- augur has joined. 19:06:15 wow, someone bought out the rights to Duke Nukem Forever and started developing it again 19:06:35 -!- Zuu has joined. 19:06:56 Never bought out the rights, actually. 19:07:21 Take Two has always *had* the rights. They just had contracted to have it developed. 19:07:39 And they decided to switch contractors. 19:07:49 ais523, yay! 19:08:03 It can not be made again! 19:08:21 what may shock Vorpal even more is that I finally got a small fragment of a Feather interp to work pretty much as expected 19:08:31 although it's just leading to more questions about what I should do next 19:08:42 ais523, WHAT HAS THE WORLD COME TO 19:08:50 code! 19:08:52 I think one thing that's necessary is to restrict the program to using only atoms that are in the original program 19:09:00 (not really a problem as you can just go back in time and add them there...) 19:09:13 Phantom_Hoover_: well, there isn't any Feather code yet 19:09:20 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:09:27 just creating Feather fakeobjects via metagaming, and checking that they interact correctly 19:09:29 3D Realms, who previously had been developing it, last released a new game in '97. 19:09:49 ais523, yes, but anything Feather is interesting. 19:09:52 *Ninety fucking seven*. 19:10:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:10:21 -!- nooga has joined. 19:20:10 ais523, pretty please? 19:20:37 ;(set! abc (box_atom "abc")) 19:20:39 ;(eval (((((abc "==") (box_atom "def")) "#") '(display "equal")) '((abc "<<=") (box_atom "def")))) 19:20:41 commented out because it's just a paste 19:20:46 (and yes, that's Scheme not Feather) 19:21:06 UNDERSCORES IN SYMBOLS 19:21:12 YOU SHOULD BURN IN HELL 19:21:26 Oh, wait, you don't like helly stuff. 19:21:35 YOU SHOULD BE BEATEN SOUNDLY 19:22:32 uhm 19:22:51 so feather will resemble scheme, on which abstraction level? 19:23:17 ais523, how do you get around the "turtles all the way down" problem? 19:23:31 so far I haven't 19:23:37 Ideas? 19:23:52 the issue is not the number of turtles, but inconsistent counts 19:24:17 it's a pain to try to match up old turtles with new one 19:24:29 Feather is the only lang I know where you have to think about backwards compatibility in the very first interp... 19:29:32 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:31:11 turtles? 19:31:37 Sgeo, small, shelled marine reptiles. 19:32:48 ais523, a language with specs but no implementation for a long time, and when someone gets around to it, they find that it _can't quite_ meet the specs 19:33:34 -!- teuchter has joined. 19:33:57 teuchter, choochter, any relation? 19:35:09 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:39:28 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:39:57 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 19:40:17 -!- augur has joined. 19:43:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:45:30 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:46:31 How can I make the audio in BytePusher VM syncrhonized? In SDL the audio has to run in a separate thread. So, how do I synchronize it? 19:46:46 With SCIENCE! 19:49:51 Not helping.... 19:52:40 -!- teuchter has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:55:23 How can SCIENCE not help‽ 19:55:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:55:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 19:55:39 How can SCIENCE not help‽ 19:55:46 We saw that the last time. 19:56:34 Oh. Effing connection. 19:56:44 And clog. 19:57:29 Phantom_Hoover_: Because that is not enough explanation, of what codes needed, and stuff like that 19:57:45 zzo38, but it's SCIENCE! 19:58:44 I'm not sure what exactly is being wanted here, but of course you could just make another buffer, into which the synchronous audio-output functions write; wrap a mutex around it; if the buffer's full, have the synchronous output function block with SDL_CondWait; and then the audio thread just reads from that buffer and SDL_CondSignal's in case the synchronous audio output function's waiting there. 19:59:03 See? fizzie has SCIENCE! 20:00:34 It has a bit unpredictable latency there, since there's another buffer inside SDL. And you'd need to call the synchronous audio-output function often enough so that the buffer never happens to be empty, but I guess that's a given. 20:02:12 Who wrote this BytePusher/ByteByteJump thing anyway? Someone not on-channel, apparently? 20:03:30 I wanted to comment on the µ-law encoding thing, which I think mostly makes sense only for speech. 20:06:34 You think it is only for speech? 20:06:48 You can post the comment on the Talk page on the wiki 20:06:59 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:07:48 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:08:04 Wikipedia does say it is for speech. 20:12:38 Maybe I will wait until they write a program that uses audio, in case they decide to change it back? 20:13:33 how to code BBJ ? 20:13:33 Waiting for a audio-outputting program might be a good idea anyway, so you can test your thing. (Though the µ-law lookup table is easy to add/remove, I guess.) 20:15:12 Yes, it is easy to add/remove 20:15:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:16:21 -!- augur has joined. 20:17:35 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:22:20 what may shock Vorpal even more is that I finally got a small fragment of a Feather interp to work pretty much as expected <-- wow... \o/ 20:22:38 no, this does not mean the lang itself is working 20:22:45 just that the very first stage is not completely impossible 20:23:01 /o/ 20:23:02 | 20:23:02 /`\ 20:23:52 ais523, indeed 20:24:05 ais523, still a first step 20:24:33 ais523: Kudos! 20:26:45 -!- cheater99 has joined. 20:27:43 ais523: i also thought a lot about language like Feather 20:27:55 and all that comes to me is some kind of Lisp on steroids 20:33:43 I made a random test of a 30-second snippet of music, in both 8-bit unsigned linear PCM and 8-bit µ-law, and the difference is pretty small, so I guess it doesn't really hurt that much to have it there. 20:34:01 fizzie: OK 20:35:22 http://zem.fi/~fis/test-linear.wav and http://zem.fi/~fis/test-ulaw.wav if someone with more discerning ears wants to comment on the µ-law + music use case. 20:35:54 (Technically I guess it's copyrighted audio, but, well, a 30-second lowish-quality snippet...) 20:38:28 fizzie: That'd be a better comparison if it were 44100 Hz. 20:39:23 pikhq: I guess, but the BytePusher has a sampling rate of 15360 Hz. 20:39:32 ... 20:39:36 Why? 20:39:57 A fixed 60 Hz framerate, and 256 samples per frame, if you mean "why that exact number". 20:40:36 If it's a more general sort of why, "dunno" then. 20:41:50 That's not even sufficiently lossless to encode music well. 20:41:56 Erm. 20:42:10 That's not even enough to encode the *base frequencies* of a giant swath of the musical scale. 20:43:37 High-fidelity music may not have been high up on the design criteria list. 20:43:39 Hrm. Actually, looking at a table of notes vs. Hz. You're good up until A8. 20:43:42 so 20:43:42 how to write programs for bytePusher? 20:43:42 is there some compiler? 20:43:47 (which is ridiculously high) 20:43:48 pikhq: It is not enough? Even for square wave or sine wave or other simple things, if you stay in the middle of octave? 20:43:59 Yes, A8 is high. 20:44:12 nooga: No there isn't, but I am writing one 20:44:20 It is more like assembler, though 20:45:26 It'll omit a good chunk of audible frequencies, buuut these are less essential ones, apparently. 20:46:33 But standard music should be enough for simple waveforms, 12-TET, 12-JI, Bohlen-Pierce, and more, which ones are likely to work? 20:47:24 zzo38: because i can't imagine how to do arithmetics on oisc 20:47:27 zzo38: Yeah, it'd only start being an issue if you start putting real instruments through there. 20:47:46 -!- calamari has joined. 20:47:57 Ones which have *some* sound above 8 kHz. 20:48:01 nooga: I think the suggestion was doing it using tables..... 20:48:07 (approx.) 20:48:40 And it is OK, since my assembler ("PUSHEM") supports adding tables and calculating values to enter into the tables, including loading them from binary files (for pictures) 20:48:58 You still have to explicitly tell it to add tables, though. 20:49:23 "However, DSD advocates and equipment manufacturers continue to assert an improvement in sound quality above PCM 24-bit 176.4 kHz." -- yeah, right, I'm sure there's a lot of audible fine detail out there somewhere over 80 kHz. 20:50:56 Ones which have *some* sound above 8 kHz. <-- doesn't most have that? 20:52:07 pikhq, as far as I remember the overtones for many (all?) instruments in theory goes on forever, getting fainter and fainter the further up they are. 20:52:35 This might depend on your definition of "some"; whether you're being unnecessarily literal with it or not. 20:52:49 fizzie, hm? 20:53:10 fizzie, did the second line clarify what I meant? 20:54:17 fizzie: Human hearing goes up to about 20 kHz... :) 20:54:26 pikhq, well yes there is that limit too 20:54:39 which makes most of those infinite overtones irrelevant 20:55:13 Vorpal: As well as the whole "approaching 0 dB" thing. 20:55:20 pikhq, indeed, which I mentioned there 20:55:36 Anyways. CD audio is nearly perfect in terms of audio reproduction.\ 20:55:39 pikhq, what about interference between stuff about 20 kHz and stuff below it? 20:55:52 probably not a significant issue though 20:56:02 Vorpal: Will get recorded as part of the CD audio. 20:56:12 Keep in mind, you're recording the *net* sound wave there. 20:56:13 pikhq, well, that is only stereo. 20:56:55 pikhq, remember you can hear the difference between sounds in more than just left/right direction due to various factors which I forgot the details about 20:57:07 If you make it 32-bit, 44.1 kHz audio, and *record binaurally*, you will have *literally perfect audio reproduction*. 20:57:16 pikhq, indeed 20:57:16 zzo38: excruciatingly slow 20:57:20 (assuming you've got hardware to actually play that back) 20:57:21 Will everyone write only twelve tone equal temperament music on BytePusher, or will some people use other tunings? 20:57:33 pikhq, that would be a PITA due to varying between different persons though 20:57:39 the head form and such I mean 20:57:49 Vorpal: Binaural recording with a generic head is "good enough", though. 20:57:50 zzo38: Or will anyone at all write music on BytePusher? 20:57:57 fizzie: I don't know. 20:58:06 pikhq, not *perfect* though ;P 20:58:13 Yes. 20:58:27 Many music programs support only twelve tone equal temperament, which is good enough for most music, but not everything. 20:58:36 Vorpal: As good as can be achieved for mass distribution, though. 20:59:06 Music-wise BytePusher seems a bit "boring", in the sense that it's just sampled audio playback, not e.g. some funky digital/analog hybrid synth-chip with interesting distortions (I'm obviously referring to the SID here). 20:59:10 zzo38, I seem to remember my electrical piano supports other tunings than equal temperament. 20:59:23 doubt midi supports it though 20:59:32 pikhq, well yes 20:59:35 Also: 32-bit audio there is kinda overkill. 20:59:57 pikhq, there = ? 21:00:14 32-bit PCM is sufficient for recording the full dynamic range possible in air. 21:00:18 This includes shock waves. 21:00:19 right 21:00:28 Vorpal: My digital piano also supports other tunings, but only a few, and not Bohlen-Pierce or 19-tone tunings or anything else like that. 21:00:36 pikhq, what about other media than air though? 21:00:48 It varies from medium to medium... 21:01:14 Double-precision floating-point audio; freedom from dynamic-range problems. 21:01:33 zzo38, right. And I can't find the manual for my piano atm. So not sure about what it supports exactly 21:01:34 fizzie: But now you've got imperfect reproduction. 21:01:48 what about quadruple precision then? 21:01:55 fizzie: 32-bit 44.1 kHz can perfectly represent all sounds that humans can hear in air. 21:01:59 But I have figured out a way to write Bohlen-Pierce music in .IT format, although it doesn't work the best way, since you have to store a sample for each pitch! http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/music2/bohlen-pierce.it 21:02:19 Not just "close enough that the differences are irrelevant". Literally perfect. 21:02:24 pikhq, what about something in between two values though? 21:02:44 pikhq: There's 52 bits of precision in a double, it can't be any more imperfect than a 32-bit integer. And if you go overkill, you should really go overkill well. 21:02:55 pikhq, I mean, lets say we have 1000 and 1001 as two values, what about representing a sound in between those? 21:02:57 Do you think this bohlen-pierce.it music works? Obviously it won't work for anything more complicated than what I have done there 21:03:22 pikhq, of course this is probably pointlessly detailed 21:03:23 It's not "literally perfect" until you hit the Heisenberg limits. :p 21:03:23 but still 21:03:33 fizzie: Which you do. And go far, far beyond. 21:03:45 I find that pretty suspicious. 21:03:49 fizzie, hm Heisenberg limits? 21:03:59 h is a very small number, after all. 21:04:11 is this about quantum mechanics suddenly? 21:04:15 O, you mean Planck units? 21:04:17 or am I confusing a name 21:04:32 Vorpal: Quantum-mechanics uncertainty about the momentum of the air molecules, you see. 21:04:40 fizzie, ahahahaha 21:05:22 fizzie, that isn't enough. Get a compensator for it. Like in star trek. Used to explain how it is possible to beam people iirc 21:05:34 Vorpal: Sample a wave with a sampling rate twice its frequency. Apply the Whittaker-Shannon interpolation formula. You have the *precise* original waveform. 21:06:22 pikhq, I find having anything precise in a real world measurement pretty suspicious... 21:06:41 but I'm no expert on this area 21:06:52 Vorpal: It is mathematically precise. In terms of the real-world, you are limited by the quality of your measuring equipment. 21:07:04 right 21:07:05 pikhq: That would assume continuous-value samples there. Otherwise you'd get quantization noise anyway. Unless the physics of a pressure wave give some limits here, but I'd like to see references for that. 21:08:16 fizzie: Adding finite ranges of samples limits the amplitude... 21:08:51 Hrm. Lemme find in precisely the manner it does so. 21:09:01 I didn't quite understand that last bit. 21:09:16 anyway why are you limiting yourself to air? 21:09:43 Vorpal: Because we don't generally care about other media 21:10:08 I mean, a finite range of real numbers has just as many real numbers than R, it doesn't help to give a maximum pressure there. You should somehow limit the number of possible pressure levels to < 2^32. 21:11:11 The whole notion of "pressure" gets a bit tricky if you start to consider individual molecules, though. Hmh. 21:12:39 hi calamari 21:12:51 hey cpressey 21:12:57 Argh. Quantization does add a small amount of error. 21:12:58 fizzie, why not record the speed and time of each individual molecule hitting your sound recording hardware? 21:13:25 possibly also location on the device in question 21:14:06 Vorpal: Why not, indeed! You should sell that sort of stuff to hifists. (It doesn't even have to actually do the impossibilities, they'll pay bazillion dollars for it anyway if you do the marketing right.) 21:14:18 Though one could *quite* feasibly put it up to bitrates that would make a 1-bit difference be below Heisenberg limits, if you set the maximum value as the maximum possible volume in your prefered medium. 21:14:22 Behold, a new use for Google's compute base. 21:15:32 fizzie, yes I realise it is of course infeasible if not impossible :P 21:16:17 pikhq, and you claim 32-bit is that for air? 21:16:49 fizzie, hm should make it go to 12 as well while I'm at it. 21:18:27 and to answer the inevitable question "go to 12 for what", it doesn't matter. Just pick any suitable setting knob 21:18:39 Vorpal: Actually, I'm going to make the actual, proper calculation, now that I've thought about it some. 21:19:07 pikhq, right. 21:19:24 * pikhq figures out the conversion rate between a Pascal and a planck mass per (planck length * planck time^2) 21:19:42 (that is, M/(L*T^2) 21:19:44 ) 21:19:49 pikhq, I guess insanely large or insanely small 21:20:14 though it could be something reasonable-sized. Who knows 21:20:25 Ah, there it is. 21:20:38 4.63309 × 10113 Pa per M/(L*T^2) 21:20:46 10113? 21:20:52 Erm. 21:20:54 10^113 21:21:00 ah 10¹¹³ 21:21:07 pikhq, :P 21:22:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:22:48 Sooo... A shock wave is 2.18698536 × 10^-129 planck pressures, and that did not help me at all. 21:23:04 pikhq, -129? 21:23:14 is planck pressures then a VERY VERY large unit? 21:23:27 Yes. 21:23:31 ah 21:23:35 It's 4.63309 * 10^133 pascals. 21:23:43 ouch! 21:24:08 -!- tombom__ has joined. 21:24:11 * pikhq looks for better units 21:25:47 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:25:58 Fuck it. I'm calling 32 bits good enough arbitrarily. 21:26:09 Screw quantisation error. If it matters, you are a freak. 21:26:50 pikhq, you aren't persistent enough 21:27:14 pikhq, anyway... 21:27:22 if 2.18698536 × 10^-129 is max 21:27:39 what is the heisenberg limit? 21:27:47 then just take that range 21:28:24 then take the range 0 to 2.18698536 × 10^-129 and divide in 2^32, if less than heisenberg limit, it is enough 21:28:28 pikhq, or? 21:28:32 did I miss something? 21:28:54 The problem is the Heisenberg limit for pressure; I certainly am not a physicist enough to start guesstimating it. 21:29:15 right, but is my basic idea sound? 21:29:30 < fizzie> The whole notion of "pressure" gets a bit tricky if you start to consider individual molecules, though. Hmh. 21:29:40 fizzie, also this is pressure, but what defines frequency hm? I'm not audio engineer enough to know this 21:29:57 Might be better to model it directly as the electric and strong forces that are causing it, at that point. 21:29:59 but certainly you can have differently loud sound at the same frequency? 21:30:33 cpressey, a bit tricky to record that, no? 21:30:45 You just need enough precision bits to handle all possible pressure levels; and then sample often enough to catch all physically possible frequencies. 21:31:01 fizzie, ah, so what sampling frequency do we need? 21:31:29 I don't know about that, but probably not something horribly huge. 21:31:35 oh? 21:32:28 fizzie, what sort of playback device do you need to play back below 1 Hz I wonder 21:32:37 Vorpal: I can't see how it would be much different from recoring the pressure on a single air molecule. 21:32:40 I know my headphones claim to go down to 5 Hz 21:32:46 which is quite absurdly extreme 21:32:50 *recording 21:33:01 cpressey, hm okay 21:34:43 If you're willing to limit yourself to humans, you can start to derive limits from the ear; those limits are lot more reasonable-sized, but they're a bit "soft" limits. 21:38:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:40:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:42:06 What are algorithms for simulation of Guqin scales? 21:43:19 fizzie: Though *pressure* probably has reasonable limits if you merely limit yourself to a specific medium. 21:45:06 wtf are you talking about 21:45:30 from simplistic VM to quantum physics -> #esoteric 21:50:51 -!- choochter has joined. 21:52:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:54:45 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:57:37 -!- tombom__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:04:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:05:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:16:15 nooga: they're talking about perfect audio reproduction 22:16:45 but somehow they've magically found perfect mics and speakers 22:18:03 with THD of 0 and perfectly flat frequency response over an insanely large range 22:19:37 It was more about audio storage/transmission, where we just postulate the existence of perfect recording and playback equipment. 22:21:57 -!- augur has joined. 22:23:15 * cpressey joins some other freenode channels on a whim 22:23:36 Suspecting this will just confirm my suspicion that this is the only one that will hold my interest 22:24:14 cpressey: I used to go to #crypto .. that one had some good discussions 22:24:22 Oo, many times I've been considering doing that, but never managed to decide where to join to. 22:24:54 Ha! There's a #falcon 22:26:36 I can set up channels on my own IRC server, too, for things that you might want, and they will automatically be logged. So that can be used if you need this kind of service (if you don't, there are other IRC networks too) 22:26:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:27:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:27:45 sometimes when my kids throw a fit is is absolutely hilarious, but I haven't decided if laughing would cause them long term emotional harm 22:35:13 Ask them which way they prefer? 22:36:26 Well. The maintenance guy came up to fix the oven, took it apart (with bits of it all over the kitchen floor now), then left while I was in the other room. Presumably to get a necessary tool or something. Haven't seen him in 20 minutes now, though. 22:36:31 I wonder how this will turn out. 22:39:47 with THD of 0 and perfectly flat frequency response over an insanely large range <-- THD? 22:40:17 A distortion measure. 22:40:23 Total harmonic distortion, was it? 22:40:46 cpressey, If you are still looking for extra channels, what about #haskell? 22:41:17 Vorpal: 16:40 -!- channels : #bash #scheme #ruby #picolisp #falcon #python #haskell ##pfsense #esoteric 22:41:40 cpressey, mhm. pfsense? falcon? 22:41:59 cpressey, #bash can be hilarious at times btw. 22:42:15 Vorpal: Yes! #falcon! 22:42:15 cpressey: A friend just facebooked (and a friend-of-a-friend told a similiar story) about a plumber that came to fix something, left saying "I'll need to go get some more tools from the car", and then never came back (or at least not in two weeks). 22:42:33 cpressey, watch out for greycat (regular there) trying to help a newbie. Headdesking will likely ensue! 22:43:15 fizzie, huh. 22:44:00 cpressey, seems he is offline atm though 22:44:19 cpressey, what is #falcon about? 22:44:24 cpressey, another suggestion: #erlang 22:44:47 cpressey, is it about the birds? 22:45:40 My guess would be the programming language. 22:45:58 Vorpal: Oh, you must have missed the recent, ah, research we've been doing into the Falcon language here recently. 22:46:18 cpressey, oh? what paradigm is it? 22:46:32 and why would anyone in this channel be interested in it 22:46:50 cpressey, I never hard of it as a programming language before today 22:47:35 Ooh 22:47:50 I never realized that XChat made it easy to manipulate autojoin channels! 22:48:14 Vorpal: Glad you asked! "Falcon provides six integrated programming paradigms: procedural, object oriented, prototype oriented, functional, tabular and message oriented." 22:48:34 fizzie: yeah 22:48:53 What's the difference between object-oriented and message oriented? 22:49:12 cpressey, ah okay.... sounds like aiming for bloated... Or to be more precise: tricky to pull that off in a good way and without getting bloated 22:49:52 cpressey, so what's so special about the language apart from supporting multiple paradigms 22:50:16 btw, what is the tabular programming paradigm? Lookup tables? 22:51:11 Vorpal: Please read the table on http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=facts -- in particular, the "Functional programming" row. 22:51:41 hm 22:51:42 Vorpal, in-memory SQLite with multiple copies of tables 22:52:04 Well, SQLite-like I guess 22:52:15 And not using SQL 22:52:20 Ok, my explanations suck 22:52:55 As far as I understand it, it means to say "None of these other languages try to embed S-expressions in an otherwise vanilla-procedural programming language" 22:55:04 cpressey, mhm 22:55:08 Oh, but my favourite part is how Falcon does "monadic programming" with "out of band values". 22:55:31 cpressey, you don't need s-expressions to be functional 22:55:40 for example, haskell 22:56:03 cpressey, "monadic programming" with "out of band values" <-- is it just me, or is that technobabel? 22:56:34 Vorpal: Ah, you may be catching on! 22:56:38 "Marking an item as out-of-band allows the creation of monads in functional evaluations. More automatism will be introduced in future, but scripters can have monads by assigning the oob status to complex objects and perform out-of-band processing on them." 22:57:18 cpressey, where did it say that? 22:57:21 * Vorpal greps the page 22:57:23 I'm really wondering if I'm sick enough to try CODING something in this language. I have the implementation installed... 22:57:34 Vorpal: It's on http://www.falconpl.org/project_docs/core/funset_oob_support.html 22:57:37 ah 22:58:16 cpressey, are all parts as bad as the functional part? 22:58:28 cpressey, or are the procedural parts better? 22:59:44 cpressey, also the way to measure "raw loop speed" is utterly silly. Just throw in an llvm style JIT there and it would probably constant fold it 23:00:31 Vorpal: I think it's fair to say that it's their approach to language design & implementation, that I find entertaining. 23:00:42 Er, and to ... language marketing. 23:01:01 cpressey, not as bad as mathematica though 23:01:15 The language itself, if you take out the "ooh! functional!" parts, is pretty plain-jane pythonish-rubyish-whatnot, it looks like. 23:01:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:01:30 Vorpal: Well! When you get into "math tools" -- have you seen R? 23:01:33 OMG, R. 23:01:37 As someone who understands monads, I wish to object to this 23:01:48 Phantom_Hoover: :D 23:01:50 cpressey, read the first paragraph on http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html 23:02:03 cpressey, that is one huge ego making false claims 23:02:18 cpressey, I have heard of R. I never used it. 23:02:18 Apparently Haskell and OCaml do not even register to the hugeness of Wolfram's ego. 23:02:22 can't remember what the code looks like 23:02:34 Phantom_Hoover, or LISP 23:02:38 Vorpal: Loading. Ah - I should have said "When you get into things done by Wolfram -- well!" 23:02:38 Vorpal, it's for st-t-st-cs 23:02:50 cpressey, indeed 23:02:56 Phantom_Hoover, ? 23:03:14 * Phantom_Hoover cannot tell for the life of him what Falcon calls monads 23:03:14 "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language." 23:03:15 oh you removed vowels 23:03:16 why 23:03:18 Vorpal: OK! You win 23:03:21 ! 23:03:29 FINALLY 23:03:31 cpressey, what? 23:03:34 cpressey, I won what? 23:03:42 A truly convenient and practical functional programming language! 23:03:47 Vorpal: The Bad Language Marketing Game 23:03:55 I mean, is the OOB stuff doing functor-related things? 23:04:11 cpressey, it also has "industrial-strength string manipulation" according to another page 23:04:14 cpressey, Mathematica isn't *that* unpleasant, just agglutinative to an insane degree. 23:04:17 cpressey, what on earth that means I don't know 23:04:24 Phantom_Hoover: OOB seems to "tag" a value with a special invisible quality which makes some built-in functions do something different with it when they receive it. 23:04:38 Phantom_Hoover: And you thought *I* had a nuts view of monads. 23:04:40 It means that it can be used in string factories. 23:04:52 Phantom_Hoover, hah 23:05:51 it seems to have functions to compute hamming distance and edit distance... And dictionary lookup. Apart from that it seems like a fairly normal set of functions for string processing 23:06:29 If it can be computed, Mathematica has a built-in function for it. 23:06:38 close 23:07:01 cpressey, what about this one: 23:07:04 "Mathematica provides a uniquely integrated and automated environment for parallel computing. With zero configuration, full interactivity and seamless local and network operation, the symbolic character of the Mathematica language allows immediate support of a variety of existing and new parallel programming paradigms and data-sharing models." 23:07:07 having tried it... 23:07:12 I can say it is shoddy at best 23:08:08 and not very automatic at all 23:08:16 I would rather say it is a PITA to use 23:08:37 "Google saw it and it blew them away! They just up and stopped using MapReduce and started using MATHEMATICA instead!" 23:08:45 cpressey, I'm not sure if I would rather use it or pthreads. And considering what a PITA pthreads is... that says about everything... 23:08:58 cpressey, any idea on what Falcon does when it natters about monads? 23:09:16 "At the core of Mathematica's symbolic programming paradigm is the concept of transformation rules for arbitrary symbolic patterns. Mathematica's pattern language conveniently describes a very general set of classes of expressions, making possible uniquely readable, elegant and efficient programs." 23:09:18 Phantom_Hoover: I am tempted to ask in #falcon. Maybe after I've had a few drinks. 23:09:22 that one, I'm not sure what they mean 23:09:38 Phantom_Hoover: But, basically, what I said about it adding a "tag" to a value, is all I can tell. 23:09:46 * Phantom_Hoover is sleep-deprived 23:09:47 that statement is curiously devoid of any factual information 23:09:50 That'll do. 23:09:55 /join #falcon 23:10:03 but it sure sound pretentious! 23:10:21 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:10:42 Vorpal: So it's a... rewriting language. 23:10:56 cpressey, yes that's about all it says 23:11:40 cpressey, mathematica wouldn't so bad if they didn't try to boost it's abilities to this degree. With some more factual documentation it would still turn out a decent product. 23:12:15 shoddy in many parts though, and worth about 1/6 of the price 23:12:36 but it wouldn't look so bad compared to it's own documentation! 23:13:28 cpressey, anyway, it should come at no great surprise that a CAS like mathematica is based on rewriting symbolic expressions 23:14:06 heck, that is likely the sanest way to implement a simplification function, by rewriting rules 23:14:28 bbiab 23:14:56 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:14:57 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 23:18:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:21:16 Is it just me and my Haskell naïveté, or is it a rather ugly hack to add support for monads straight into a language? 23:21:40 Oh damn, I haven't been following this. 23:22:46 Phantom_Hoover, what is? 23:22:47 Now invent something like METAFONT but for music synthesis. 23:22:55 Phantom_Hoover: Well, uh, "tabular programming paradigm" -- need I say more? 23:22:58 cpressey, apparently OOB allows special handling of objects. 23:23:11 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's a "please handle me specially" bit. 23:23:13 Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure that makes monads though 23:23:22 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 23:23:23 Phantom_Hoover, can't see how to do the IO monad with it for example 23:23:32 I assume from this that they've implemented some horrible hack that bashes functors in somehow. 23:24:30 cpressey, looks like they ignore TeX too: http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/MathematicalTypesetting.html 23:24:38 I still don't think you can get proper monads from this. 23:24:43 and yes, TeX is in my opinion far better 23:25:09 maybe they are correct about the input, but that is just how they render it 23:25:13 * Phantom_Hoover assumed it used TeX already. 23:25:27 but the rendered result is shoddy compared to TeX using CM 23:25:32 Phantom_Hoover, no it doesn't afaik 23:25:39 That NIH is slightly worse than zzo's. 23:27:30 -!- madbr has joined. 23:27:31 TeX is better, and it is better for more than just mathematical typesetting. Mathematica is just a large program that does too many things and costs a lot of money, and is not Free Software. 23:27:59 Well, you can get around the money pretty easily. 23:28:04 indeed. We were poking fun at wolfram's large ego 23:28:07 Phantom_Hoover, indeed 23:28:07 http://fr.justin.tv/surasshu#/w/361774448 <-chipmusic stream 23:28:32 (original songs from famicompo, quality varies ofc :D) 23:30:19 I don't want that, do you have the .NSF files instead? (If they are written on .NSF, that is.....) 23:30:42 yeah 23:30:55 http://midr2.under.jp/compo/vol7/index.html 23:30:59 link is on these 23:32:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:32:33 OK thanks, why didn't you just post that one at first? 23:32:55 cause we're doing a synclisten in espernet #mod_shrine 23:33:05 but yeah that's fine too 23:33:10 check out original #1 23:33:59 -!- teuchter has joined. 23:34:13 -!- alise has joined. 23:34:43 * oerjan was wondering about the alise deficiency 23:34:54 madbr: Original #1 is the one I currently have playing 23:35:02 oerjan: I simply had to be at a place today. 23:35:30 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:35:52 yes but it's evening now 23:36:17 oerjan, it's very nearly morning. 23:37:04 depends on your definition of "morning" - it feels strange to call just after 12 am morning 23:37:32 O! Entry number 2 uses MMC5 23:40:08 An idea I have is to make a .NSF music with multiple tracks, where each track is a variation of the same music, such as looping/non-looping, different waveforms, turning the music backward and/or upsidedown, different temperament, and so on 23:40:24 oerjan: I had to get up early and couldn't sleep; after coming back, I was tired enough to want to rest a bit before trekking up the stairs. 23:41:03 zzo: not allowed in famicompo :( (no multi-tracks) 23:41:30 Who wrote this BytePusher/ByteByteJump thing anyway? Someone not on-channel, apparently? 23:41:37 javamannen on the wiki 23:41:42 Can .NSF format use different temperament? 23:41:58 zzo: yeah but why would you use it 23:42:12 madbr: Why is that? What if they just make it if it has multiple tracks, they just use only track zero 23:42:31 Or, if they won't accept multi-tracks, just change the number of tracks in the header to zero before submitting the file 23:42:32 I dunno, they just have a rule against it :/ 23:42:39 (I mean, to one track) 23:43:21 madbr: So that you can use just intonation music, or pythagorean tuning (for Chinese music), or Bohlen-Pierce, or any other temperament, instead of using twelve tone equal temperament all the time 23:43:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:44:04 madbr: Do they accept it if the file has multiple tracks but you change the header so it says it is only one track, and the others are not accessible unless someone fixes the file? 23:44:19 yeah but in practice pythagorean is almost exactly like equal temperament 23:45:20 madbr: Yes it is close, but for some things it is better. 23:46:12 bohlen-pierce has like no octave or no 5th 23:46:30 zzo: the difference is like less than the nes tuning accuracy 23:46:56 (well, or so one might assume, the initial edits were anonymous ip. "javamannen" means "the java man" in norwegian, btw) 23:47:29 madbr: Yes that is true, but that is because Bohlen-Pierce has different intervals instead, for writing different kind of music. Just like just intonation and Mersenne and so on is all for different kind of music. 23:47:40 < Phantom_Hoover> I assume from this that they've implemented some horrible hack that bashes functors in somehow. <-- I simply assumed they wanted the use the word "monad" without regard for what it meant. 23:47:48 Oh, it's still goin. 23:47:49 zzo: but yeah in some music engines like it2nsf it's easy to detune by about the right amount 23:47:50 *going 23:48:17 Well, after much questioning, I still have little idea what they're going on about. 23:48:26 it2nsf can detune in 1/16ths of a semitone 23:49:07 madbr: That is, if you are using a program like it2nsf. If you program directly instead, you could program it however you want (within the limits of the NES APU and any audio addons that are part of the .NSF format) 23:49:41 zzo: that's not a good strategy for making music 23:50:06 simply because it makes it harder to put in notes and listen to what you're doing 23:50:35 Some people listened to music in their mind because they cannot hear it 23:51:08 Tracker programs are just too limited in my opinion 23:51:21 limited? by what? :D 23:52:11 Limited in all sorts of ways. These programs are not METAFONT! 23:52:53 -!- teuchter has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:53:09 I think I've come to a degree of understanding over OOB monads, and my conclusion from this is that they're so hideous I won't explain out of kindness. 23:54:00 Phantom_Hoover: Thank you. 23:54:02 metafont? 23:54:23 madbr: Have you heard of TeX? METAFONT is the program to design fonts for TeX documents. 23:54:41 If I understand correctly, the way they do it will cause map to explode if you use a monad in it. 23:55:05 And I think TeX and METAFONT are very good for the things they do. 23:55:37 And various other bits are so crazy that I feel that I must have got them wrong, but fear that I haven't. 23:56:17 Phantom_Hoover: Good times! 23:56:21 zzo: well, it's kinda like... mml is more flexible than trackers 23:56:33 cpressey, what's going on now? 23:56:36 but mml is for aspies really 23:56:45 Phantom_Hoover: OOB? 23:56:45 madbr: What does "mml" means? 23:56:54 alise, you know Falcon? 23:57:03 mml is a system used mostly by japanese composers 23:57:11 No, thankfully; but yes, of it. 23:57:16 Somewhere they said they could do monads through some mysterious OOB thing. 23:57:18 Phantom_Hoover: Not much. Mathnerd314 is continuing to... explore their concepts. 23:57:29 basically you write your song in text format and it compiles it to nsf 23:57:30 I, curious, investigated. 23:57:42 Phantom_Hoover: Well, by which I mean, he said something. 23:57:47 The rest is basically Lovecraft but with crappy languages. 23:58:05 madbr: Where is more information? 23:58:24 alise: We discovered that there is a #falcon channel on freenode. Hilarity ensued! 23:58:51 Oh no. 23:58:54 zzo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Macro_Language 23:58:59 OK 23:59:03 cpressey: Watch as I get banned! 23:59:06 cpressey, alise didn't join, did he? 23:59:11 Phantom_Hoover: You bet it, baby. 23:59:13 :| 23:59:17 Wow, it's like the insane asylum created an outpost, and it's on IRC! 23:59:18 This I must see! 23:59:51 Aww, he ignores me because I hurt his feelings. 2010-09-04: 00:00:03 (jonnynomind) 00:00:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:00:14 I hate them because they broke my brain and I want it back. 00:00:34 zzo: basically it's polyphonic zzt #play 00:00:36 Is it just me, or does implementing monads in the language itself seem like an inelegant hack? 00:01:08 Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much, 00:01:09 *much. 00:01:44 13:00:14 32-bit PCM is sufficient for recording the full dynamic range possible in air. 00:01:47 13:00:18 This includes shock waves. 00:02:20 we need that for those realistic nuclear hand grenade first-person shooters 00:02:52 Phantom_Hoover: He's going to treat us like a band of trolls! 00:02:55 Invading! 00:02:56 Or -- ignore us. 00:03:00 pikhq: haha that's nice 00:03:00 :) 00:03:00 oerjan: Also "end of the world"-class disaster movie soundtracks. 00:03:15 yeah 00:03:22 alise: maybe you should just tell him that #esoteric is invading 00:03:41 ATTACK 00:03:46 Leave no prisoners! 00:04:09 Mathnerd314: "We will add your syntactical and semantical distinctiveness to our own. Your language will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." 00:04:56 *semantic, not semantical 00:05:19 haha, yes. An esolang named Borg... 00:05:26 Wow, that's a pretty good attack against the esoborg 00:05:39 Sgeo: What is, exactly? 00:05:41 Have them try to assimilate a poisonous language 00:05:48 xD 00:06:14 Mathnerd314: its only instruction is to load an esolang from the wiki 00:06:17 * Mathnerd314 needs to watch more Star Trek 00:06:21 and combine it with the current one 00:06:22 Mathnerd314: we'd need a Category:Borg_assimilee to add to other languages then 00:07:02 What happens when it tries to assimilate a Lisp and Factor? 00:07:09 pre and post fix? 00:07:18 "They doesn't have to." 00:07:20 they combine to get mixfix 00:07:21 Actually, I was vaguely wondering what a combination would be like 00:07:37 Sgeo: (define (f x) [(+ 2 "abc" length 2 +)] call) 00:07:56 I was thinking more along the lines of some words being prefix some being suffic 00:07:59 *suffix 00:08:02 And no parents 00:08:05 *parens 00:08:09 he said synergies 00:08:52 an orphan language 00:08:57 so something Haskell-like except with suffix-functions 00:09:37 Did you just seriously use the word synergy in a non-ironic context? 00:09:37 Phantom_Hoover: did you seriously use the word non-ironic in an non-ironic context? 00:09:38 You could probably run Wolfram Research in a few years if you started now. 00:09:38 Phantom_Hoover: Uhm... is that good or bad? 00:09:46 incidentally, parens is no more a logical abbreviation of parentheses than parents is 00:10:06 alise, should I tell him or goad him further? 00:10:17 Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer. 00:10:20 But don't tell him anything. 00:10:25 This is a silent invasion of laughter. 00:10:27 ok maybe slightly, the latter divides a phoneme 00:11:23 `addquote Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer. 00:11:38 Parenth, for people with lithpth. 00:11:41 218| Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer. 00:11:43 jonnymind, oh, good. Your attitude towards language design is very similar to that of Wolfram himself. 00:11:44 Uhm... in that case: thanks. 00:12:04 even the egos are similar.... 00:12:04 :) 00:12:04 .... 00:12:04 * jonnymind searches the ban button :) 00:12:13 Even his channel members are turning against him! 00:12:35 poor lucone, banned for getting the joke? 00:12:54 hahahaha 00:12:58 everyone's just ganging up against him 00:13:00 poor guy 00:14:26 Is there a addon for PPMCK that allows mixing MML codes with assembler codes and machine codes? 00:14:39 falcon had to be fast in managing raw native data in a way that was high level and comfortable in a script. ← therefore monads. Makes sense. 00:15:42 A design philosophy combines their justifications into one coherent goal. 00:15:43 alise: was getting to it. 00:15:48 00:15:55 alise, I think we both know his design goal. 00:16:12 "Put all of the cool toys from other languages in!" 00:16:16 When I degenerate into just outright flaming his stupidity, I'm gonna whip out the Borg line. 00:16:41 Hmm, what interesting esolangs can we add? 00:16:46 Ooh, Feather! 00:16:58 Phantom_Hoover: Add to...? 00:17:07 Falcon. 00:17:41 Phantom_Hoover: Okay, stop being evil. 00:17:48 I seriously want to interrogate this insane man. 00:17:51 OK... :( 00:19:48 Feather barely even exists in its creator's mind. 00:19:48 (Like a four-spatial-dimensional object, poking slightly in and moving around in some incomprehensible way, dropping out occasionally.) 00:19:48 o,O 00:19:48 that's poetry... 00:20:03 Add some of the INTERCAL stuff, such as the FORGET command and things like threaded COME FROM. 00:20:18 And also add the preprepreprocessor. (Enhanced CWEB has a preprepreprocessor) 00:20:19 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:21:10 alise, finally gave in? 00:21:16 -!- wareya has joined. 00:21:26 Phantom_Hoover: No, I realised it could work earlier on being said by Falcon. 00:22:07 MWAHAHA he does not know of our secret war room 00:22:35 We shall take Tiger Mountain. By strategy! 00:22:37 cpressey: A friend just facebooked (and a friend-of-a-friend told a similiar story) about a plumber that came to fix something, left saying "I'll need to go get some more tools from the car", and then never came back (or at least not in two weeks). 00:22:49 alise, BtW, Feather is meant to be computable, and AFAIK is. 00:22:50 clearly there is an epidemic of alien plumber abductions 00:22:57 Phantom_Hoover: I know. 00:23:26 or wait the other one was a maintenance guy, not a plumber 00:23:35 but the evidence is clear, anyway 00:23:39 fizzie: FTR he did eventually come back and say that it needs a part that he won't be able to get 'til Tuesday. 00:23:55 Evidently aliens are bad at UFO maintenance. 00:24:05 Plumbers are just specialized pipe maintenance guys. 00:24:26 Phantom_Hoover: ooh, maybe they've been abducting people to fix it, yeah 00:24:40 Obviously. 00:24:43 Unix is primarily about pipe maintenance. 00:25:22 Hey, another Voyager cast member who hates it! 00:25:24 [[After being cast as Harry Kim, Wang had a strained relationship with Voyager executive producer Rick Berman, who took over from Star Trek inventor Gene Roddenberry: "When Roddenberry passed the reins over to [Rick] Berman, unfortunately Berman kept the same formula. And he just kept plugging it in. So when I'm asked what made Voyager stand out...you are talking about the same overall formula so it doesn't. It has stayed the same for every single episode. 00:25:24 "]] 00:25:41 alise: why else would the internet tubes run on it, duh 00:25:47 [[In a 2007 interview with scifiworld.com, Wang voiced his displeasure about the show. He felt the Harry Kim character was "underused", passive and one-dimensional. Prior to Season 2, he went to the producers and said: "Listen I want to have a stunt double, I want to do some stunts, I want to run, I want to kick; I want to have a love life". He also stated to only have had "minimal" creative impact upon Harry Kim: he desperately wanted Harry Kim to be funn 00:25:47 ier, but the producers felt that Neelix or The Doctor fit better as comic relief. In the end, he described it as unfulfilling,[2] and also spoke of a "rift" between Berman and him.[1] When he complained that every other character on the show got promoted except Kim, he was told that he had to remain the lowly Ensign because "well someone's got to be the ensign".[3]]] 00:27:30 jonnymind: Philosophies usually are :) 00:27:31 let's say that there may be different ways to solve a problem. 00:27:31 Not the complexity theory. 00:27:35 A--what now? 00:28:07 alise, you want to enjoy Falcon? 00:28:13 Phantom_Hoover: I have to keep the peace. 00:28:18 This is interesting. 00:28:26 Although I have decided he simply has really terrible taste. 00:28:27 alise, you are a better man than I. 00:28:46 ...   [ name|"unknown", income| {=> self.name.len()*100} ], 00:28:48 hmm. Borg should have a design philosophy. 00:28:59 Just call me Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 00:29:15 I am still of the opinion that his philosophy is that other languages have cool things, and that he wants these cool things. 00:31:19 Add commands to adjust the optimizer 00:31:40 Add stack based programming 00:31:49 Mathnerd314: to assimilate all other languages and their features is not obvious enough for you? 00:31:54 Add dependent theorem proving! 00:32:46 For Borg, how about have one construct, " will be assimilated" and then perform the following block of code? 00:33:22 Phantom_Hoover: i haven't looked at falcon but my intuition is that there are clearly cool features in various languages that are _incompatible_ with each other. and that _might_ be part of falcon's problem, i don't know. 00:33:24 Possibly piping each block to the next, or viewing it as a function of some description. 00:33:56 You need function concatenation operator 00:34:15 zzo38, also known as "composition". 00:34:30 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 00:35:16 " will be assimilated [as ] [with (full type inference vs. object subtyping, for one. simplicity vs. all the rest, for another...) 00:36:21 I think this is why its monads are hideous. 00:36:27 You need to add some features that are like Forth. Often it is a kind of problem a bit sometimes that other program language do not have these kind of feature like Forth. 00:36:34 Add rule functions like Magic Set Editor has. 00:37:11 Very, very slightly. 00:38:24 Well, the overall justification is interesting, but not very sensible. 00:39:10 Phantom_Hoover: OOB seems to "tag" a value with a special invisible quality which makes some built-in functions do something different with it when they receive it. 00:39:22 zzo38, why does everything have to be like Forth? Surely some non-Forth languages might be good? 00:39:52 hm that's more or less the idea i had for the LiMonadE vapor-language (unlambda + monads) 00:40:08 oerjan, augh at the pun 00:40:09 Vorpal: Not everything has be like Forth, but some of these feature are useful 00:40:14 (the quality being the monad, of course) 00:40:16 mhm 00:40:38 Make a preprepreprepreprocessor 00:40:48 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 00:40:51 And also postpostpostprocessor 00:41:14 for what? 00:41:36 I think this kind of feature can be useful sometime 00:42:10 I can't see the use for more than a single layer of pre-processing in general. 00:42:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:42:51 * Vorpal consider lisp meta-macros 00:42:55 augh 00:43:48 ...And jonnymind has just said that his monad model can easily break if you use it with map. 00:43:58 Words cannot express how stupid that is. 00:45:27 night 00:45:59 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 00:46:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:49:41 Enhanced CWEB has its own meta-macros format, and they have many purposes, and can be mixed with TeX as well as with the C preprocessor, and that means it can do a lot of things. 00:51:17 (A common thing I use is to define @-p to predeclare a procedure as well as start its definition, without having to repeat it) 01:06:36 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:14:24 oerjan: Re Falcon: it is both the incompatibility of everything, plus the, well, non-standard nomenclature. I would bet the designers do not hold degrees in CS (otherwise they would be more careful about what they call a "monad" or "functional programming", is all.) 01:15:18 mhm 01:15:42 (mind you i don't hold a degree in CS either :D) 01:15:51 -!- Tatiana1 has joined. 01:16:22 Hi 01:16:28 hi 01:16:52 First of all, sorry for my terrible english 01:17:33 Hi. 01:17:36 We're not about religion. 01:18:04 ok 01:18:10 Where are you from? 01:18:16 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:18:21 The Internet 01:18:36 From home 01:18:48 Home 01:18:50 Let me come home 01:18:55 Home is whenever I'm with you 01:18:58 You have to go to your own home 01:19:02 And I go to my own home 01:20:39 Tatiana1: i am from norway. although this channel is not usually an "ordinary" chat channel either (we talk about computers, technology and math a lot) 01:20:55 "ordinary"? 01:21:08 Are you saying that ordinary chat rooms have most of the people be from the same area? 01:21:19 If so, where would I find such a chat channel for my area? 01:21:32 actually i have no idea what they are like since i've probably never been on one :D 01:21:38 ok, it is a ecletic chat rsrsrs 01:21:49 ecletic? 01:22:07 It is for esoteric programming, so you can look at the wiki for more information about esoteric programming language 01:22:09 Sgeo: buy a dictionary 01:22:14 what zzo38 said, i was about to say that 01:22:20 Sgeo: what i really mean is that we're not the kind of chat where you start out by asking people where they are from ;D 01:22:21 Sgeo: or use the internet 01:22:34 oerjan: Yes. 01:22:59 No such word as ecletic 01:23:07 It is correct. We not generally start by asking where you are from 01:23:08 worp 01:23:12 although many of us do know where many of the others are from, eventually :) 01:23:28 at least approximately 01:23:37 Sometimes looking at the IP address / domain name can help a bit 01:23:47 To see where you are from, in case you are interested 01:24:08 worp worp 01:24:15 Well, the Internet has been unhelpful 01:24:52 and to do that, you can usually do a /whois someone's_nickname command. i think. it probably depends on client. 01:24:57 Sgeo: oh, i see, boring typo pointing outs 01:25:06 shoerp 01:25:10 alk 01:25:15 And eclectic doesn't seem to have any.. oh, I see what he thinks this is 01:25:20 Just a general chatroom? 01:25:23 worp worp worp 01:25:25 Combination of stuff? 01:25:26 In this client it just displays it in every message that user sends. 01:25:35 *Are* there "general chatrooms" on freenode? 01:25:41 cpressey, defocus 01:25:57 knarl 01:26:07 -!- augur has joined. 01:26:09 We do all sorts of stuff in this channel, but mostly programming stuff, and sometimes mathematical stuff, and things related to that, are most common. And esoteric programming discussion is on topic to this channel. 01:26:10 cpressey: defocus; it's shit 01:26:40 alise, it's an IRC channel 01:26:43 How can it be shit? 01:26:54 (This client displays other client's IP address / domain name before every message, in dark cyan, after the @ sign) 01:27:52 Sgeo: we _are_ pretty eclectic, just not general. iiuc what eclectic means. 01:27:58 Sgeo: is this one of your hyper-literal-interpretations-are-hilarious thing, or just... I don't know 01:27:59 Tatiana1: #esoteric = (computer programmers | mathematicians) + (very smart | very strange | very creative) 01:28:07 cpressey: hahahaha 01:28:08 talk about ego 01:28:18 rsrsrsrs i liked 01:28:26 where are you from? 01:28:28 Tatiana1: I don't follow "rsrsrs". 01:28:31 cpressey: I guess that is pretty close! 01:28:43 alise, it's an uttern failure to understand 01:28:44 #esoteric = (dabblers & dilettantes & amateurs) + (computing skill) + (a few people of actual merit) :-) 01:28:52 but we're cool dilettantes! 01:28:53 "rsrsrsrs" = smile 01:29:01 Sgeo: #defocus is shit. As a community ... it is shit. 01:29:02 alise: I suppose that is also it! 01:29:09 Are you unfamiliar with the expletive "shit"? 01:29:19 rsrrrrr 01:29:32 Tatiana1: rsrsrsrs isn't very common here, we usually use smileys or maybe a lol 01:29:35 alise: who is of actual merit? 01:29:43 * Sgeo has never seen rsrsrsrs before now\ 01:29:44 alise: I suppose I'm painting the ideal rather than the reality. But, damn, most of us *are* one of those. 01:29:46 Have seen rsr5 01:29:58 * oerjan swats Sgeo -----### 01:30:14 nooga: well, that would be telling (and rude to everyone else). (ais523, cpressey, oerjan, a few others) 01:30:33 ofc including yourself.... ? 01:30:35 rsrsrs or huahauhaua 01:30:42 nooga: I don't see why. 01:30:53 Oh, it 01:30:57 s r5rs? 01:31:01 nothing, ignore that 01:31:03 * Sgeo selffacepalms 01:31:09 Dabbling dilettante with computing skill. I don't see why that doesn't fit me better than actually-skilled-person. 01:31:41 Tatiana1: hau hau is actually a way to write the sound that dogs make 01:31:43 in Polish 01:31:52 I think both cpressey's and alise's fits well. 01:32:11 hau hua = is smiling 01:32:12 alise: Well. If you want to look at what we DO, sure. We dabble. We... dilletante things up. 01:32:13 :P 01:32:13 Sgeo: i have a hunch alise may think general chatrooms are shit in general 01:32:28 oerjan: absolutely not! I loooove #esoteric 01:32:36 rofl 01:32:38 where are your from? 01:32:46 erm 01:32:50 alise: i thought we just established #esoteric was _not_ a general chatroom 01:32:54 The observable Universe 01:33:03 we had that map, remember? 01:33:04 oerjan: well we like to pretend it's not :-) 01:33:16 Tatiana1: I am from Canada, in case you really care. (You can check my domain name and see that my service provider is from Canada, too) 01:33:19 nooga: we downloaded all the data before the site shot itself 01:33:22 He has no face!.... erm, it has no topic1 01:33:47 although of course #esoteric may be twisted into an approximation of what hyper-geeks might think an ideal general chatroom _should_ be. it's why i'm here, isn't it. 01:33:49 understood 01:33:59 Tatiana1: England, the country of violating 14 year olds' human rights as defined by the UN, and rain. 01:34:03 Uhh, I'm totally not bitter or anything. 01:34:09 Wow, that reference is ungoogleable 01:34:10 yeah right 01:34:17 Sgeo: *topic! 01:34:34 It is modarchive.org -able 01:34:47 nooga: ? 01:34:54 nothing :D 01:35:13 * Sgeo decides that the n in nooga stands for "nothing" 01:35:22 I`m from Brazil 01:35:26 Sgeo: actually my swat wasn't for your misspelling, i didn't even notice that :D 01:35:36 Well, what, "on topic"? A few days ago I released a stupid language called Eightebed, which proved nothing *really*, but which released me to work on something else for a while. I've had a few ideas, one of which is a fixed set of grid-rewrite rules which I think could be Turing-complete in an interesting way. 01:35:42 Tatiana1: But maybe you want to see the things that the people on this channel have invented and stuff, if you really care, that is. 01:35:52 Tatiana1: Poland, polar bears, vodka, moustache etc etc 01:36:07 And the occasional vodka moustache. 01:36:12 ;D 01:36:19 * Sgeo attempts to make BF-RLE sound important 01:36:23 i've never seen a goddamn polar bear 01:36:38 nooga: oh in reply to what i said? :) 01:36:42 ISIDTID 01:36:52 i think so ;f 01:37:16 nooga: Go to the zoo 01:37:20 http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=73115 01:37:21 I`m telling the truth 01:37:24 anyway, sleep time, brb 01:37:29 shipped with the desktop version of Alchemy 01:38:16 Tatiana1: we didn't say otherwise 01:38:37 Tatiana1: I'm more of a "This sentence is false" person myself. 01:39:07 This sentence is true but unprovable. 01:39:23 :P 01:39:47 This sentence is false, but its negation is unprovable. 01:39:57 nooga: i'm not sure you quite get the r part of brb 01:40:17 either that or you sleep rather fast 01:40:21 This sentence is true, and its negation is unprovable 01:40:28 This sentence is false and unprovable 01:40:34 Work out stuff relating to the above 01:40:42 * Sgeo makes hand-wavy gesture 01:41:00 This sentence is equivalent to the Riemann hypothesis. 01:41:22 Surely "The Riemann hypothesis." is simpler? 01:41:24 Tatiana1: Brazil's pretty cool. That's where Lua comes from. 01:41:26 erm 01:41:31 Surely "The Riemann hypothesis is true." is simpler? 01:41:32 This sentence's negation is provable if and only if the Riemann hypothesis is correct. 01:41:37 Lua? 01:42:02 Oh, I forgot to mention: we're largely concerned with programming languages, formal calculi, and models of computation here. 01:42:07 Lua's a programming language. 01:42:14 Sgeo: hm 01:42:17 May be easier to deal with "This sentence's negation is provable if and only if statement P is true." 01:42:33 See how that relates to statement P 01:42:40 Sgeo: OK. 01:42:58 The jsforth guy complained about Lua due to lack of bit manipulation 01:42:59 Maybe "largely concerned" is too strong. Theoretically, we all like those things. They make us feel good. 01:43:01 iirc 01:43:35 Sgeo: I also complained about Lua due to lack of bit manipulations, too. 01:43:54 I could care less for bit manipulations. I mostly like Lua. 01:44:12 I don't mind 1-indexing in a language. But when it's supposed to interact with C.. 01:44:27 Not really a strong complaint, but still 01:44:39 Ooh! adjustable indexing! 01:44:42 * Sgeo turns into a Perl 01:44:48 either that or you sleep rather fast ;; damn Uberman 01:45:06 Surely "The Riemann hypothesis is true." is simpler? ;; Surely [Riemann hypothesis] is simpler? 01:46:10 Sgeo: I'm not thrilled with the conflating of maps and arrays. Part of me says, that's just going too far. 01:46:23 It's fun! 01:46:31 * Sgeo evillaughs 01:47:28 -!- Tatiana2 has joined. 01:47:57 cpressey: Better than Tcl conflating everything with strings. 01:48:39 * Sgeo o.Os at the number of Titanics in the Futurama universe 01:49:02 Sgeo: is it countable or uncountable? 01:49:14 countably finite 01:49:22 BORING 01:49:27 * Sgeo wonders if "uncountably finite" makes sense 01:49:45 i don't think so 01:50:09 Sgeo: It only make sense if what you mean by "uncountably" is that it is too long to count and you don't have time or words for them 01:50:30 But that is probably not what is meant, because it isn't what it meant in "uncountably infinite" 01:50:31 I hate only having 3 options when there are 2 booleans 01:50:38 there is that model of ZF without axiom of choice where two definitions or finite don't coincide, though 01:50:50 -!- Tatiana1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:50:52 -!- choochter has joined. 01:51:24 one of them being essentially "can be counted by a finite natural number", the other being "is not the same size as a proper subset of itself" 01:52:40 Example of a set where those definitions aren't equivalent? 01:52:41 however if you can be counted by any ordinal at all, those two coincide 01:53:28 -!- Tatiana2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:54:18 well in such a model you have sets that are not equivalent to a proper subset of themselves, but which _still_ are not equivalent in size to any {1,...,n} 01:54:44 * Sgeo wonders if "uncountably finite" makes sense <-- Thank you; you are justifying "very strange" 01:55:11 I don't want to have a table with 4 spaces with one space not making sense! 01:55:15 1, 2, 3... ah, shit, I'm bored. Well, I guess that the numbers on the clock are uncountably finite. 01:55:15 you cannot embed _all_ the naturals into them, but you can embed any finite set of naturals. you cannot extend the embedding to all without using the axiom of choice. 01:55:16 I do sometimes think of strange things like that too, but not specifically that 01:55:19 It's ugly and horrible and nightmare incuding 01:56:34 in a sense such a set is uncountable (not equivalent to a subset of naturals) but still finite in the other sense 01:56:48 Huh. Awesome 01:57:23 Sgeo: What is ugly and horrible? And why? 01:57:33 A B 01:57:36 A ~B 01:57:40 ~A B 01:57:46 and ~A ~B doesn't exist 01:58:06 And in what context? 01:58:38 Any! *insanes* 02:00:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedekind-finite 02:00:58 verbing non-verbs, a clear sign of insaning 02:01:12 I am a bit insane too, a bit.... but I don't consider myself ugly and horrible and nightmare incuding 02:01:36 good, good 02:02:54 * Sgeo happies oerjan for allowing "uncountably finite" to exist 02:04:33 Insane people do things that are improper because the proper way is very wrong 02:06:02 Celia Green wrote a book with the thesis that in all of human history, only two people were sane. Everyone else was (and is) insane. 02:06:14 Just thought I'd throw that out there. 02:06:30 Which two? 02:06:44 And insane monsters do things that are very improper because the very proper way is extremely wrong. 02:06:57 And when I play D&D game I prefer to play monster character. 02:07:30 And also because someone wrote a book, I don't know which book I mean, though. 02:08:05 * oerjan seconds Sgeo's question 02:08:32 Yes, which two people? Or, does Celia Green not know which two? 02:10:08 clearly the answer must be something explosive. 02:11:10 Sgeo: Jesus Christ and Frederick Neitzsche. 02:11:36 Not saying I agree with her, or anything. 02:11:37 * oerjan had a hunch about the first one 02:11:40 cpressey: THey are also just as insane as everyone else, I think 02:13:31 zzo38: I agree. I would also note that Jesus Christ, as portrayed in the New Testament, is in my opinion largely fictional, and that ol' Fred is just as insane as anyone else, just in a completely different direction. 02:14:11 (I say the latter based on having read Thus Spoke Zarathustra; I've never read the New Testament from cover to cover, though.) 02:14:48 Fred makes some good points, but, sheesh. Calm down, dude. Sit. Have some tea. Organize your thoughts. 02:15:06 cpressey: Yes, I agree with you about Neitzsche, and about Jesus, that may be correct (we don't actually know what (if anything) happened, it is just written by a few people). 02:19:11 If my character is dead, I create another character, a different monster character, also, and beginning at the next session, and the DM has to fit it into the game somehow, there are many ways 02:21:02 Clones! 02:21:10 * Sgeo wonders why people are following him 02:22:24 Clones? 02:22:37 Are clones following you? 02:29:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:29:47 -!- augur has joined. 02:30:50 apparently they must have got him 02:32:27 Oops! I didn't mean to do that! 02:32:43 I pushed the "d" button! That makes the room exsovalve! 02:32:52 well too late now 02:33:18 i would probably be panicking if i knew what exsovalve was 02:33:33 I don't know what exsovalve is either 02:33:36 s/probably/clearly/ 02:34:02 good, good. then maybe we can avoid panic 02:34:10 food -> 02:36:44 Food? 02:36:50 Is food following you? 02:38:58 no i'm stalking it. 02:39:11 Ah ha! 02:39:23 Well, well, an INTERCAL reference in #haskell. 02:39:35 That means everyone playing "the game" has to take a swig. 02:39:39 * cpressey takes a swig 02:43:37 so that's what they call "the game" these days 02:44:14 clearly INTERCAL is no match for haskell's reverse state monad 02:47:25 Ah, so much crazy, so little time. 02:50:17 What should I do, to make the best use of my limited crazy-time? 02:51:07 heck if _i_ know 02:52:32 cpressey: I don't know? 02:53:22 this problem is obviously at _least_ NP-complete. 02:53:26 Of course not. Don't mean to put that burden on ' 02:53:31 *y'all. 02:53:57 But first, I'm going to see if the reverse state monad is something real, or something oerjan just made up. 02:54:15 * oerjan cackles evilly 02:54:27 Apparently real 02:55:09 the top google hit seems aptly named 02:57:58 OK, I can only imagine how that works. 02:58:15 My understanding of monads is (ask Phantom_Hoover) still quite crude. 02:58:26 But I *can* imagine. 02:58:36 I was thinking just the other day, 02:58:51 "You know, there ought to be any number of really bizarre monads you could write" 02:59:06 (Not that anyone in this channel could think of any at the time) 03:02:09 I don't think of any at the time, because I don't know a lot about monads, to think of it. 03:11:26 I thought reverse state was an esome inventiojn 03:12:51 Why is it that simply placing cheese between slices of bread and grilling it freaking *delicious*? 03:12:59 s/freaking/is freaking/ 03:13:45 Because you can make sandwich! 03:14:09 pikhq, I hate non-grilled cheese sandwiches 03:14:19 Are grilled really that much better? I never tried 03:15:06 Sgeo: ... Non-grilled cheese sandwiches? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS. 03:15:32 pikhq: There is a scientific reason. Let me see if I can remember it. 03:15:33 I just eat the bread, then eat some cheese a while later... 03:16:51 Grilled sandwich is better, at least in my opinion. 03:17:15 if I have some tomato in it too, then definitely yes 03:18:37 * Sgeo should find out how to grill sandwiches 03:18:50 I need a grill, don't I? Are there safe indoors grills? 03:18:57 Sgeo: It's *ridiculously* easy. 03:19:03 you need a frying pan and some butter 03:19:10 Get a frying pan, some butter, and a sandwich. 03:19:44 Heat up frying pan. Butter bread. Apply to frying pan until sufficiently grilled. Flip. Apply to frying pan until sufficiently grilled. Remove. Eat. 03:19:49 butter? use olive oil. 03:20:25 How long does that take? 03:20:26 pikhq, I hate non-grilled cheese sandwiches 03:20:26 Are grilled really that much better? I never tried ;; yes 03:20:29 Okay, yes, you can also just oil the *pan* instead of the *sandwich*. 03:20:41 not long 03:20:42 Sgeo: Like, 5 minutes? 03:20:45 sgeo < 5 minutes 03:20:46 they are far, far better 03:20:46 BUT 03:20:51 I must advocate the superior option 03:20:53 Cheese on toast 03:20:58 Here is how you make cheese on toast: 03:21:01 Damn, I cannot find a reference to it. But I found a book with a fantastic title: http://books.google.com/books?id=-oRp5VCVTQQC 03:21:07 It doesn't taste less bad after some time, does it? 03:21:12 No. 03:21:24 I might end up bringing such sandwiches to school 03:21:24 Sgeo: unless you like it burnt 03:21:36 No, as in, make it, bring it to school, eat at school 03:21:38 Cheese on toast: Put butter on two slices of bread. Thick bread. Put cheese on these two slices. Strong cheese. Grill it (or whatever you want to do instead). 03:21:59 This is a more manly dish than a grilled cheese sandwich, but ... rather harder to store. 03:22:04 And you want to eat it hot. 03:22:21 * Mathnerd314 thinks about using an actual grill to make grilled cheese 03:22:58 MMaybe I won't spend so much money on buying chicken sandwiches from the place on campus 03:23:19 alise: Okay, so. Texas toast and strong cheese. 03:23:28 Then again, it is... why isn't poultry meat? 03:23:38 Sgeo: It's best hot. 03:23:38 Sgeo: It ... is .... 03:23:41 *... 03:23:47 pikhq: Texas toast? Fuck that shit. 03:23:53 alise: It's thick bread. 03:23:55 pikhq, :/ 03:24:08 pikhq: Nobody British enough to make a proper cheese on toast would buy anything with Texas in the name. 03:24:28 Anyway, I dimly remember some biochemistry term like "queso-opioid" or something, to refer to the chemicals that are produced when you bake or fry cheese. 03:24:32 alise: "Texas toast" is literally just thickly-sliced bread. 03:24:40 pikhq: Also, if it's bright, strong yellow and sliced it's not cheese. 03:24:48 I'm talking proper fucking cheddar here. 03:25:03 Damn! I want to go there sometime. To Cheddar, I mean. 03:25:08 * Sgeo decides not to make a Sgeo-style joke 03:25:09 alise: You want more horrification? 03:25:18 so cheese tastes better melted because it's filled with drugs? 03:25:19 wow 03:25:20 -!- oerjan has set topic: The cheesy channel | (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 03:25:20 alise: There's things more artificial than "American cheese". 03:25:24 I wonder if they have a cheese tourism culture there... like Wisconsin. 03:25:36 calamari: haha wow 03:25:45 alise: For instance, there's "sliced cheese food product". People actually buy this and eat it. 03:26:03 pikhq: Well, I am totally not hearing you! 03:26:50 * Sgeo has no clue what kind of cheese is in the house 03:26:54 American, I think 03:27:06 alise: Mostly composed of vegetable oil. 03:27:57 Sgeo: Get you some cheddar. Now that's cheese. 03:28:42 Sgeo: American cheese is just bad cheddar + various other suspicious crap added + stupid colouring. 03:28:59 + whatever else Kraft decides they want you to have in your body as opposed to something you actually want in your body -- of the week 03:30:34 alise: Actually American cheese is just leftover bits of cheese from *various things* + emulsifiers + stupid colouring. 03:30:48 alise: With more crap added to make it lower quality sometimes. 03:31:15 (if it's pre-wrapped slices, it's got crap added. And it's vomitous, rather than merely crappy.) 03:31:40 pikhq: Oh, so no actual proper cheese. 03:31:57 Well, apart from leftovers. 03:32:02 Sgeo: tl;dr get some mature cheddar. 03:32:03 calamari: I only wish I could find a reference for it so I'm sure I'm not hallucinating it. 03:32:05 casual caseine 03:32:07 No, not medium. Mature. 03:32:17 Not extra-super-duper mature, though, that's kind of icky. 03:32:22 I've never been interested in cheese enough to care before 03:32:26 dammit, *casein 03:32:27 (Icky = Hey, I eat one crumb and it feels like my mouth hurts.) 03:32:39 Sgeo: That's probably because American cheese is the most boringly uninspiring food product there is. 03:32:49 Cheddar itself is delicious. Seriously. 03:33:02 why does american cheese taste so bad 03:33:44 madbr: as in [does it really?] or [what is the cause?] 03:34:02 what is the cause 03:34:11 alise: Sometimes, it's instead just throwing together milk, whey, milk fat, milk protein, salt, and emulsifiers in the right proportions. 03:34:24 madbr: that. 03:34:31 And yes, it is the most boring and bland cheese ever. 03:35:01 Cottage cheese has more flavor. And *that's* just curds and whey with some of the whey drained off. 03:36:14 american cheese has a flavor 03:36:20 it tastes bad :D 03:36:45 Crappy American cheese tastes bad. 03:36:51 "Good" American cheese just lacks taste. 03:37:28 there are many grades? 03:38:11 Are you familiar with Cheez Whiz? 03:38:27 Or Easy Cheese? 03:38:42 familiar no, I stay the hell away from that stuff 03:38:52 Those are also American cheese. 03:38:54 and my parents never buy it 03:39:48 alise: Easy Cheese, BTW, is "cheese" in a spray can. Yes. A spray can. 03:39:52 The only contact we Brits have with your icky American cheese crap is when we go into burger joints. 03:39:56 Also, what. 03:40:05 alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Easy_cheese2.jpg 03:40:13 Yes I... loaded the page. 03:40:18 That doesn't look like cheese. 03:40:34 1) cheese is not orange 03:40:36 It tastes like artificial cheese flavor. 03:41:00 If Kraft died tomorrow, the only innocent casualties would be a few chocolate brands. 03:41:06 (Toblerone, Milka. That's all I can think of.) 03:41:10 madbr: Cheddar cheese often is. (for no good reason, it's very common to dye it orange-yellow-ish) 03:41:23 pikhq: that's regional 03:41:32 True, but still. 03:41:34 pikhq: here they don't dye it so it's white 03:41:42 Where I live, they make cheddar cheese both white and orange, they make both kinds. 03:41:56 strong cheddar is never coloured in my experience 03:42:04 the orange is just the wimpy stuff for people who can't handle cheese 03:42:11 (and ofc you can get white mild cheddar too) 03:42:39 alise: I think you'd be amazed by some of the processed "foods" available in the US. 03:42:51 "In 1995 it was revealed that the Swedish politician Mona Sahlin had bought, among other things, two bars of Toblerone using her Riksdag credit card (i.e. taxpayer's money). This became known as the Toblerone affair. Sahlin was forced to step down as a candidate for the post as Prime Minister." 03:43:12 Wow, in the UK when our MPs started putting houses and porn and shit on their expenses, we just yelled at them for a month or two. 03:43:25 WE HAVE MOTHER FUCKING IMITATION MAYONNAISE. 03:43:33 Well, porn is one thing. But TOBLERONE??? 03:43:38 pikhq: ...but mayonnaise is the simplest thing to exist, ever 03:43:58 alise: "Miracle Whip". It's imitation. Fucking. Mayonnaise. 03:44:18 pikhq: I don't want to talk about this any more or ever again or ever make it stop 03:44:51 Make the pain stop 03:44:53 pikhq: One thing I have discovered is that in the US, unlike Canada, you can get actual *pickle relish*. It's amazing. I didn't even know it existed before. 03:45:04 cpressey: Pickle relish is delicious. 03:45:21 Is it illegal in Canada? 03:45:42 zzo38: No -- I had just never been able to find it. It's all sweet relish. 03:45:59 xD 03:45:59 "In 1933, Kraft was a well-established distributor of mayonnaise, yet sales were slipping as a result of the Great Depression.[citation needed] Kraft developed a new dressing similar to mayonnaise, but at a lower price. Premiering at the Century of Progress World's Fair in Chicago in 1933, Miracle Whip was an instant success as a condiment on fruits, vegetables and salads." 03:46:06 Pickle relish is CORRUPTING OUR CHILDREN 03:46:32 alise: Hey, be glad you're not Italian. 03:46:39 I have no children and I use no relish. 03:46:41 alise: Oh how I could make you pain. 03:46:50 zzo38: COMMUNIST 03:46:53 pikhq: wat 03:47:06 Y'know what, this might actually do it anyways. 03:47:08 alise: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/Kraftparmesan.jpg 03:47:11 alise: COMMUNIST??? 03:47:18 Yes, really. That's powdered "parmesan". 03:47:19 alise: mind you Mona Sahlin got better, she's currently the opposition's PM candidate 03:47:28 (again) 03:48:34 oerjan: Wow, I'm amazed that's a scandal over there. Props to you guys. 03:48:47 zzo38: SOCIALISM FASCISM 03:49:10 alise: Oh, there's also imitation whipped cream. 03:49:24 there's currently somewhat of a "scandal" in norway about at least three government ministers accepting afghan carpets as gifts (completely legally, mind you) 03:49:28 Often in a spray can! 03:50:06 (those are the prime minister, foreign minister and defense minister, i.e. the three that actually had any business going to afghanistan) 03:50:09 alise: BTW, I'm only naming highly commonly consumed things, not niche oddities. 03:50:17 pikhq: Can I cry please? 03:50:31 (otherwise I'd mention things like canned pancake batter) 03:50:35 I think I accidentally got upset over a simplification for teaching the other day 03:50:36 haha 03:50:46 oerjan: Can you guys let me come live there? Thanks. 03:51:07 Although I didn't realize that that's what it was, and I didn't know what it was non-simplified, and I got confused because the simplified BS made no sense whatsoever 03:51:41 I suppose I should explain what I'm talking about 03:53:08 alise: We also brought non-dairy creamer to the world. 03:53:39 ... No, that was Switzerland. 03:53:56 She was talking about sigfigs 03:53:57 Switzerland AND BRITAIN 03:54:04 alise: You should be ashamed. 03:54:15 And how for addition and subtraction, you just look at the number of significant figures after the decimal place 03:55:03 I didn't realize that this was just equivalent in some cases (presumably all that we'll be dealing with) to making the highest-place sigfig be the highest lowest sigfig in the operation 03:55:04 Sgeo: why is that being taught in university? 03:55:26 alise: Not taught in high school. 03:55:30 ... 03:55:32 you /are/ joking 03:55:38 We did do sigfigs in HS 03:55:41 iirc 03:55:47 It's just been a while 03:55:56 the unit did significant figures shit with me recently (year 10; most people would be 15, me 14) 03:55:59 and i remember thinking 03:56:04 why is this simple shit being taught so late?? 03:56:17 alise: it was also mention iirc that the minister for development (i.e. charity) had gotten a goat and a wife in sierra leone. however, he apparently didn't bring either back home ;D 03:56:22 *mentioned 03:56:24 alise: In many high school programs, it's not taught at all. 03:56:35 oerjan: The goat /was/ the wife. 03:56:43 pikhq: I refuse to answer. Let me cry alone. 03:56:52 I wish I were joking. 03:56:53 alise: no, that was another story, which i also seem to recall :D 03:57:11 Name a programming language or library which supports significant figures. 03:57:21 cpressey: Falcon 03:57:25 (the goat and the wife were as _gifts_, in case it wasn't clear) 03:57:29 OH SNAP! 03:57:34 oerjan: haha 03:57:45 "Here! Take my wife, Western king! (She's a whore.)" 03:58:01 Sounds Stargate-ish 03:59:05 alise: About what age do you guys generally get to algebra? 03:59:54 pikhq: Uh, around the same age. 04:00:07 alise: Which is? 04:00:12 Trivial shit, like "find x and y". 04:00:15 pikhq: 15 04:00:23 Ah. Yeah, around the same age. 04:00:30 I took it in 8th grade.. so what's that.. 13? 04:00:33 Which is pretty depressing. 04:00:45 pikhq: Around the same time as significant figures. :P 04:00:45 calamari: About. I did it in 7th. 04:00:53 Although, perhaps earlier, actually. 04:01:07 Since the unit were on this ridiculous "HE IS LACKING IN EDUCATION" kick at the time. 04:01:25 * pikhq did calculus his junior year. Whooooo... 04:01:34 Isn't Education sometime around the 18th birthday? 04:02:28 I used sigfigs in physics class. I don't like using sigfigs except with scientific notation. When the question involved sigfigs I wrote down the answer using scientific notation. 04:02:32 I saw political sign saying all kids should learn to read by 3rd grade.. I couldn't believe my eyes 04:02:51 but I live in AZ.. and we suck :( 04:03:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:03:30 calamari: I remember people still struggling with reading in my 3rd grade class. 04:03:34 Supposedly, every kid in my kintergarted class learned to read rather quickly 04:03:37 ISTR sigfigs way earlier than algebra. Then again, ISTR a sigfigs "refresher" in 1st-year undergrad physics. Soooo... 04:03:42 It was at some SLCD place 04:03:58 The teacher decided to teach phonics then. First time they'd seen any hint of words having anything to do with phonemes. 04:04:20 people make fun of phonics.. but they work 04:04:26 Stupid phonetic alphabet! Who needs it! 04:04:37 "The School for Language and Communication Development" 04:05:07 calamari: Better than brute-force pattern recognition. 04:05:12 * Sgeo o.Os at it being a school for children with "language and autism disorders" 04:05:12 (which, 04:05:29 FWIW, is *not* how Japanese or Chinese people learn their script...) 04:05:55 pikhq: Perhaps there is different way learning better for a different language 04:06:10 Sgeo: why o.O 04:06:26 zzo38: Yeah, I'm just pointing that out because some idiots go "ZOMG Chinese does whole language stuff THATS GREAT" 04:06:38 (even though there's rather a lot of phonetic cues in there) 04:06:41 I saw political sign saying all kids should learn to read by 3rd grade.. I couldn't believe my eyes ;; what age is third grade????? 04:06:42 pikhq: O, that is why 04:06:51 Because this channel has, at least once, tried to convince me that I am not on the spectrum? 04:07:17 I don't see why the kindergarden you went to should change any of that. 04:07:18 alise: Uh... 8 to 9. 04:07:29 Probably everyone in here has at least a minor-- 04:07:33 pikhq: ... 04:07:34 pikhq: No. 04:07:39 Haha, very funny. 04:07:53 spectral geo 04:07:54 alise: "n the United States, third grade (called grade 3 in some regions) is a year of primary education. It is the third school year after kindergarten. Students are usually 8 - 9 years old, depending on when their birthday occurs." -- Wikipedia 04:08:19 pikhq: I... 04:08:44 People who can't read by the time they enter nursery -- or at least leave nursery to enter proper school -- are considered thick as all hell. 04:08:47 Over here. 04:09:12 Doesn't everyone get the Reading stuff at 8 years old? 04:09:17 alise: Is nursery the equivalent of kindergarten? 04:09:23 Sgeo: "the Reading stuff"? 04:09:27 Sgeo: ... What? What? 04:09:37 pikhq: Pretty much. I'm not sure whether it's leaving nursery or entering nursery when you should be able to read or else you're really fucking retarded. 04:09:37 alise: Ah, yes it is. 04:09:37 ISTR everyone being able to read, and probably write, in 1st grade. 04:09:45 Like, someone learning to read in nursery is probably considered fine. 04:09:47 http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php 04:09:48 Although your parents probably suck. 04:09:51 For not teaching you sooner. 04:09:54 I'm assuming nursery == kindergarten. 04:10:11 Sgeo: Ah, that. 04:10:12 Yes. 04:11:32 alise: Kindergarten is not compulsory in all states. 04:11:57 I dunno if nursery is compulsory here. 04:12:01 But point is, wtf Arizona. 04:12:11 * cpressey more cheese toast 04:12:25 As such, there are many who arrive in first grade (that's about-equal to *year two* for you) not being able to read. 04:12:35 Ha, I have addictified cpressey with my quasi-opioid drug toast. 04:12:37 Er, cheese. 04:13:19 pikhq: I propose brutal eugenics. 04:13:22 "In language first graders are taught the fundamentals of literacy, including reading sentences, writing very simple statements and mastery of the alphabet, building on what the students have learned in kindergarten or other forms of pre-school (although because first grade is the first compulsory level of education in many U.S. states, the level of literacy in incoming students can vary widely)." -- Wikipedia. 04:13:34 Sure, it'll be utter fascism for a few generations, but it's not like it'll be any worse than your current political climate. 04:13:36 Yes, the *fucking alphabet*. 04:13:41 And then you can get some actual shit done. 04:13:45 *Six and seven year olds*. 04:14:44 Along with such concepts as "a clock" or "a calendar" or "money". 04:15:01 I hate your country. 04:15:05 And not for your freedom, either. 04:15:18 I get the feeling this was designed assuming that parents would never interact with their crotch-fruit. 04:15:41 Crotch-fruit is the most horrific term I have ever heard. 04:17:49 alise: How does primary-school math education go there? 04:19:00 Uhh... in a way that I utterly cannot remember. Ask Wikipedia. 04:19:13 It doesn't detail. 04:19:36 Stuff-like, then. 04:19:38 Google it. :P 04:20:25 alise, have you already read Profession, so I can spoil it? 04:21:04 No. 04:21:32 "In the United States, in mathematics, fourth graders are usually taught how to add and subtract common fractions and decimals. Long division is also generally introduced here, and addition, subtraction, and multiplication of whole numbers is extended to larger numbers." 04:21:44 I remember, the day we were to learn multiplication 04:21:51 I had watched some tapes on arithmatic 04:21:55 Sgeo: Of ... integers? 04:22:01 And I was convinced that a*b != b*a 04:22:02 Well, naturals. 04:22:12 alise: Yes, of naturals. 04:22:12 I think I've said this before 04:22:13 Yes 04:22:26 I remember long division! 4th grade sounds right. I still do it sometimes. 04:22:35 Um 04:22:38 Why were you convinced that a*b != b*a ? 04:22:42 Sgeo: this is clear proof of the matrix 04:23:12 zzo38, it made no sense that 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 4 + 4 sort of thing should always work 04:23:41 I've mentioned this in here before 04:23:52 I remember once, in 6th grade 04:24:14 Convincing myself that 2/0 = 4/0 but not 3/0. I think because 2/0 * 2/2 = 4/0 04:24:23 But then how did 1/0 interact with stuff 04:24:26 < oerjan> (mind you i don't hold a degree in CS either :D) 04:24:31 I ended up crying over this 04:24:38 so basically Sgeo has always been a crank mathematician at heart 04:24:40 (I was a bit of a crybaby) 04:24:43 oerjan: No, clearly your degree was in Punning. 04:24:43 ...ok, maybe you are autistic 04:25:08 Admittedly, Dot Action has driven me near tears these past few days, but I think that is intentional on the part of its creator. 04:25:10 Or my memory may be wrong :/ 04:25:17 Sgeo: Yes you did mention about 2/0 = 4/0 but not 3/0, before. 04:26:08 -!- augur has joined. 04:26:19 Punning should so have been a city in china 04:27:22 There once was a man from near Punning, who had an idea oh-so cunning 04:27:45 NO 04:27:57 Limericks are going TOO FAR, cpressey 04:27:59 XD 04:28:11 especially when you don't manage to make them scan 04:28:46 or is "idea" two syllables 04:29:18 not that it scans _well_ in any case 04:29:40 ANnoying: Having to explain to an adult why x/0 is generally not considered to work before explaining how I think I'm getting it to work 04:29:40 There once was a man from near Punning 04:29:41 Who had an idea oh-so cunning 04:29:41 But to his dismay 04:29:41 Waking the next day 04:29:41 He found the neighbour's wife stunning. 04:29:44 I couldn't come up with the last line 04:29:51 so I made up something random instead 04:30:53 oerjan: Um... the "a" in "idea" just sort of floats there non-disruptively in the meter, for my ears. But I can see how it might not technically fit 04:32:37 mhm 04:32:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:34:13 -!- augur has joined. 04:40:32 afaik "idea" isn't germanic native 04:40:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:43:19 So close to finishing stage 32 04:43:49 55 is DEATH 04:43:56 LIQUID DEATH 04:45:17 madbr: afaik it's greek 04:49:02 DANG IT 04:49:10 Just got the last green dot on 32 and died 04:50:07 No flash = No Dot Action 2. :( 04:50:10 The fun thing is that the part that looks hardest is incredibly easy 04:51:22 CLEAR! ! ! 04:51:37 madbr: Yeah, but this is English. 04:51:44 madbr: We despise native words. 04:51:47 cpressey: And thus no purpose in life. 04:52:26 madbr: To the point of having a non-native *pronoun*. 04:54:16 oh? :) 04:54:19 which one 04:54:43 "they" is from Old Norse, rather than Old English. 04:57:03 33 was annoying 04:57:56 Is 34 supposed to be doable? 04:58:49 ... 04:58:51 As is "are". 05:00:40 and "am" iirc 05:01:30 Nope, that's from Old English. 05:01:40 Obvious cognate with Old Norse, though. 05:01:40 IF YOU SAY SO 05:13:18 alise, I see absolutely no way to travel down the staircase of 34 05:13:38 Sgeo: Uhh, screenshot me up. I forget. 05:13:59 It's annoying to post screenshots 05:14:11 imgur.com 05:14:17 ...I know about it 05:14:22 It's what's before that's annoying 05:14:26 Remember, I'm on Windows 05:14:32 alt+printscr 05:14:33 mspaint 05:14:34 ctrl+v 05:14:35 save 05:14:36 png 05:14:36 Yes 05:14:36 foo 05:14:37 imgur.com 05:14:39 It's annoying 05:14:48 Fine, I'll do all the work for you as well as telling you how to do it. 05:14:51 I am too kind ... 05:15:11 No, I want a screenshot program that automatically uploads to imgur 05:15:18 Sgeo: protip 05:15:19 it's easy 05:15:58 Sgeo: another tip: Higher is better. 05:16:06 Another tip: Control is unnecessary. 05:16:24 I kind of revealed that a bunch of people from another channel are the new people in #falcon 05:16:25 Huh. "Modern Indo-European". 05:16:31 Now one person's asking me from where 05:16:40 Don't know if I should reveal it or not 05:16:43 alise, um 05:16:52 I'd not reveal. 05:16:54 Start with reconstructed Proto-Indo-European, specify enough of it to make it an actual language. 05:16:54 If I jump before the staircase, I die 05:16:55 We don't need those people :P 05:16:58 Sgeo: So don't jump. 05:17:16 If I don't jump, I die 05:17:24 Unless maybe if I start on that elevated thingy and 05:18:34 alise, ty 05:18:39 Now I died on that lone block 05:19:44 Out of time 05:20:51 It's easy 05:20:54 :P 05:21:06 Need to kill old habits 05:21:50 C L E A R ! ! ! 05:28:33 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:34:46 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:35:12 -!- augur has joined. 05:40:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:47:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:02:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 06:51:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:51:17 -!- augur has joined. 06:56:49 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 07:08:58 105 requires a bit of thought 07:10:03 -!- comex has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 07:11:03 -!- comex has joined. 07:13:12 -!- cheater00 has joined. 07:13:43 Sgeo: I just tried writing my first Falcon program, and it doesn't even *work*. 07:14:17 This language is fascinatingly bad. 07:14:20 hmm? 07:14:30 Oh, Falcon, not Factor 07:14:39 Oh yes. NOT Factor. 07:15:18 http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=sitewiki&prj_id=_falcon_site&sid=wiki&pwid=Code+Snippets&wid=snippet%3Apicker <-- the first program there, what would you expect it to output? 89, maybe? 07:15:41 It outputs '1'. 07:17:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:29:54 I don't know how well it works, or how good it is. 07:30:55 But it does have some good features, such as metacompilation and prototype OOP. 07:34:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:40:10 I would probably use a different program language 07:46:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:56:30 -!- Nomz has joined. 07:57:16 Sum 1 here ????? 07:57:50 I didn't get n e reply frmm n e 1 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:25 -!- Nomz has left (?). 08:03:26 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:07:16 -!- Zuu has joined. 08:07:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 08:07:16 -!- Zuu has joined. 08:33:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:42:32 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:01:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:13:43 18:44:14 clearly INTERCAL is no match for haskell's reverse state monad ← I must see this. 09:18:06 OK, I cannot for the life of me tell how it works. 09:25:37 I mean, the let statement is completely insane. 09:39:41 Aw, I missed out on the cheese discussion. 09:43:23 19:59:54 pikhq: Uh, around the same age. ← My school did it at around 11 or 12 for the top set, although it was pretty trivial. 09:51:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:59:40 "Falcon is a small, fast and powerful embeddable programming language." 09:59:52 Evidently they are using some odd definition of "small". 10:06:15 My god, I have it! 10:06:26 They're trying to make a language bigger than Common Lisp! 10:07:14 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:11:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:17:27 annoying, it seems I have constructive interference of the noise from my computer and my monitor. Causing a very annoying high pitched tone exactly where it is most comfortable to sit. Moving head a few cm in any direction removes the noise. Turning off monitor removes it. But it isn't there when listening close to the monitor when it is turned on. 10:29:03 -!- tombom has joined. 10:30:34 -!- cheater99 has joined. 11:12:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:12:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:58:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:04:00 I have come to the conclusion that brainfuck is not an esoteric language; it is well known and somewhat popular. The only thing that can define it as esoteric, as of now, is its being of a turing tarpit. However, many non-esoteric languages are also turing tarpits - such as BASIC, Bash, and PHP. 12:04:05 (sarcasm) 12:19:51 PHP is turing tarpit?? 12:23:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_UNIX-HATERS_Handbook 12:23:17 It is now. 12:23:25 lol, it was almost like Windows for them 12:24:04 lol 12:24:39 "3 Documentation? What Documentation?" 12:24:57 i can assign almost every chapter to recent MS Windows systems 12:25:16 Windows XP is still my favorite OS 12:25:45 aside from the lack of inter-process comunication, and driver hell, I haven't had a single problem with the OS itself. 12:26:01 mhm 12:26:05 Not counting the lack of DX10/11. 12:26:08 i also used it for a long time 12:26:28 Also not counting the awful Luna theme. 12:26:28 but then my computers had more cores and RAM than XP can handle 12:26:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:26:53 I ran it on a 2 ghz machien with 2 GB RAM, and an ati x1500. 12:26:57 machine* 12:29:14 * Phantom_Hoover decides he hates the UHH purely on the basis of its front cover. 12:29:40 Good points aren't something that you throw away because of their tone and source. 12:30:23 They overlaid black text on a black-and-white image. 12:30:28 They should DIE. 12:31:01 hehehe 12:36:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:37:09 -!- nooga has joined. 12:43:37 uugh enumerators 12:48:38 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:54:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:10:57 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:46:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 14:47:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:04:57 fungot, 15:04:57 Phantom_Hoover: then it was that the text was indeed in english. 15:05:06 NOOOO 15:19:28 -!- alise has joined. 15:26:25 * Phantom_Hoover is now of the opinion that Turkish Star Wars is far funnier than Plan 9. 15:34:42 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:34:58 Now I have written a "munching squares" program for BytePusher. 15:48:45 * Phantom_Hoover munches squares 15:51:06 It is much shorter than the other two programs. 15:51:43 This program is 3073 bytes long. The scrolling logo is 100608 bytes long. The keyboard test is 130558 bytes long. 15:52:52 See the screenshot on the wiki page for BytePusher 16:04:17 (There is a article about munching squares on Wikipedia) 16:04:18 09:53 < OmniMancer> from what I read in the logs these people have been locked in a closet with a small set of very pure langauges all their lives and know nothing of the real world 16:04:41 Well, that is kind of true 16:04:59 cpressey: from #falcon? 16:05:05 Yep. 16:05:16 Is jonnymind there? 16:05:20 Yep. 16:05:22 Darn, yes. So he can ban me. 16:05:45 Phantom_Hoover: has the discussion been relatively civil? 16:05:47 before this 16:06:08 Well, jonnymind wasn't there until just before I left. 16:06:17 cpressey: ^? 16:06:24 cpressey: has it been? 16:07:05 OmniMancer was exasperated, but that was the extent of it. 16:09:30 Example of PUSHEM code: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/Munching_Squares.pushem 16:10:18 cpressey: Tell me what the replies are :-) 16:10:20 -!- sftp has joined. 16:10:30 zzo38: that's cool 16:11:34 alise: Can you understand this code? 16:11:46 zzo38: no, but i haven't tried 16:13:25 Why don't you try? 16:14:58 i might another time 16:15:00 it's quite long 16:15:43 OK 16:19:41 alise, bah, I wanted to see an epic debate. 16:19:58 Let's leave those retards alone. :D 16:20:02 They're no fun. 16:39:18 -!- derdon has joined. 16:57:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:57:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:00:59 In 1996, Forbes went to work for Microsoft,[1] and Microsoft's cabinet archiver was enhanced to include the LZX compression method. Improvements included a variable search window size; Amiga LZX was fixed to 64kB, Microsoft LZX could range on powers of two between 32 and 2048 kilobytes. A special preprocessor was added to detect Intel 80x86 "CALL" instructions, converting their operands from relative addressing to absolute addressing, thus calls to the sam 17:00:59 e location resulted in repeated strings that the compressor could match, improving compression of 80x86 binary code. 17:04:53 alise: Well, I'm out of there, now. I kept it civil. 17:13:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:20:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 17:21:13 * Phantom_Hoover_ despairs at Coq's coinduction. 17:22:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:25:02 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:25:13 -!- yiyus has joined. 17:25:32 I mean, I just want to define the nats as a coinductive stream! 17:27:08 Uhh, why? 17:27:20 For the lulz! 17:27:29 Doesn't sound hard. 17:28:50 I tried defining stream and smap appropriately, then defining the nats as cons 0 (smap S nats), but that violates one of the restrictions. 17:30:54 I suspect it's that smap isn't a constructor of stream, but I might be wrong. 17:34:47 I suggest defining your own types. 17:34:50 That usually works. 17:34:52 Oh, wait, I see. 17:35:00 Just do it manually. 17:37:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:38:11 Do what manually? 17:38:29 write your own corecursive thing directly 17:38:32 rather than calling smap 17:39:26 How does that work..? 17:42:17 I can't really see how... 17:44:29 I mean, you presumably need to use a corecursive function to map S on a stream, and then we're back at square 1. 17:45:29 Unless there's a Super Ultra Clever way of doing it. 17:45:51 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:48:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 17:53:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:54:12 alise, name a function over the complexes right now. 17:54:33 Phantom_Hoover_: Uh, argument. 17:54:46 Addition. :P 17:55:01 By "over the complexes" I mean having type C → C 17:55:58 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:57:28 This is probably an abuse of notation, but whatever. 17:57:39 alise, try again? 17:58:07 Addition where you pack the two together. 17:58:40 Phantom_Hoover_: Do you mean having type C -> C but *not* type R -> R or Z -> Z ? 17:58:40 But, uh, conjugate. 17:58:50 Cuz, like, yeah. Addition. 17:58:52 Z? 17:58:58 Sgeo: Integers 17:59:00 Ah 17:59:06 Sgeo, you don't know what Z is? 17:59:11 O.o 17:59:17 >.> 17:59:23 I do now. And I did once. 17:59:24 It's my fault for not Blackboard Bold'ing it. 17:59:53 But what would be interesting about having... actually, no 17:59:57 alise, it should have interesting properties when an image is transformed with it. 18:00:02 R->R but not Z->Z would also be interesting 18:00:09 Phantom_Hoover_: Not really. 18:00:21 Phantom_Hoover_, multiply by i? 18:00:29 Well, that 18:00:36 that's not _that_ interesting 18:00:41 Sgeo, do you know how boring that is? 18:00:42 Just rotation, I think 18:00:56 "Rotate by 90°" 18:01:35 Phantom_Hoover_: e^x? 18:01:49 alise, been done. 18:01:58 Phantom_Hoover_, pics? 18:01:59 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders if tan has. 18:02:06 Phantom_Hoover_: What does e^x produce for images? 18:02:14 Also, pi^. :P 18:03:17 alise, SRoMG does this a lot, and I'm wondering what else can be tried. 18:04:13 Please stop using that incomprehensible abbreviation. 18:04:56 Square Root of Minus Garfield? 18:04:57 But typing "Square Root of Minus Garfield" goes contrary to my laziness! 18:05:13 cpressey: yes 18:05:13 cpressey, part of the Mezzacottapeligo. 18:05:18 Arcsin(Garfield) is awesome 18:05:20 Sin(Garfield) too 18:05:32 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=433 18:05:34 Indeed. 18:05:35 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=473 18:05:39 But what else can we do? 18:05:39 (for cpressey) 18:05:47 Phantom_Hoover_: i^x? :PPP 18:06:17 Complex exponentiation still hurts my brain. 18:06:19 :pppppppppp 18:06:39 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=415 log. Awesome! 18:06:56 (http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=400 exp) 18:07:23 Wow, there's 1 Over Garfield. 18:07:23 * Phantom_Hoover_ quite liked Garfield^-1 centred on Garfield's thought bubble. 18:07:26 And it is http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=407 18:07:29 FUCKING DISTURBING 18:08:13 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=388 18:08:21 NOT SURE WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS CRAZY 18:08:39 "Complex little creatures, aren't they?" http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=156 18:08:53 Wow. Cube root is beautiful. http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=380 18:09:40 You could satarize these strips with a 1 + Garfield 18:10:22 Firstly, not a word. 18:10:30 Secondly, it's already a loving parody of Garfield Minus Garfield. 18:10:51 Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=368 18:10:52 DEAR GOD 18:11:03 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=351 fffff 18:11:34 Is it? It's more an experimental toying with Garfield. 18:11:34 And there's a Fourier transform of Garfield. 18:11:39 As well as a sort of Garfield. 18:12:02 Phantom_Hoover_: But it is inspired by, at least. 18:12:04 alise, now read through all the Mezzacotta strips 18:12:33 no. 18:12:55 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:13:12 Sgeo, OLD 18:13:27 -!- yiyus has joined. 18:13:28 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders whether to start on Lightning Made of Owls. 18:14:16 Phantom_Hoover_: Link me to the FFT? 18:14:19 Er, FT. 18:14:33 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=43 18:14:48 By DMM himself. 18:16:23 Wow. 18:16:28 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=26 polar cöordinate transformed. 18:16:44 Diaeresis fail. 18:17:01 Oops. Indeëd. 18:17:37 Diaeresis fail. 18:18:03 Deliberate that time. 18:18:50 -!- cheater99 has joined. 18:21:03 *Oöps. 18:21:42 My right ear's working again! 18:24:28 -!- nooga has joined. 18:24:48 i use Y Windowing System 18:26:20 that exists 18:26:58 i wonder... why 18:27:07 Wait. I can say "asshole" on Fark? 18:28:33 You can say asshole any time. 18:28:36 nooga: because X is awful 18:28:52 ais523: My idea about while loops an TCL (I don't know if you recall it; doesn't really matter) did not turn out to be interesting, 18:29:04 I don't 18:29:39 Take the language of while programs. Add some kind of homoiconicity so that you can build programs from inside it. Enforce the rule that inside each while loop, the program must re-define the meaning of "while". 18:29:46 alise, I can't say "fuck" on Fark 18:29:49 It turns it to "Fark" 18:30:02 ais523: you don't what? 18:30:07 Sgeo: Fark is utter crap, anyway. 18:30:30 alise: pr. don't recall my offhand remark about my silly idea 18:30:35 alise: I don't remember cpressey's idea about while loops and TCL 18:30:42 cpressey: ah 18:30:50 TCL as in Tcl/Tk? 18:30:54 Anyway, there it is, if anyone wants it. 18:31:12 alise: Yes. Someone was answering someone else's question about TCL here at the time. 18:31:28 Oh, I think ais523 was playing with expect, that's why. 18:31:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:31:52 yep, I was 18:32:41 alise: that's true 18:32:57 i was wondering if there's something that could replace X in linux 18:33:06 but i guess there isn't 18:33:55 You can run GTK+ stuff in DirectFB, that's sort of replacing X, but I don't know why anyone would. 18:34:29 let's wait for open Aqua reimplementation 18:35:39 it's Quartz 18:35:40 not Aqua 18:35:42 that you care about 18:36:02 and besides, it's just Display Postscript 18:36:03 but with PDFs 18:36:29 someone is working on some X-compatible replacement minimal thing i think 18:36:32 dunno if it's any good 18:36:36 Squeak and Pharo have some framebuffer thingy 18:36:42 Wayland 18:36:43 I think' 18:36:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server) 18:37:05 * cpressey just realized that means Macs are running a crippled monster forthoid in their display systems. 18:37:09 Shweet. 18:37:14 dunno if it's actually X-compatible 18:37:22 cpressey: Nothin' wrong with PDF. 18:37:28 PostScript is cool, and PDF is just non-TC binary PostScript. 18:37:42 alise: Thus, forthoid. 18:37:47 But not a crippled monster :P 18:38:03 Is Factor a forthoid? 18:38:09 Besides, you used to be able to screenshot to PDF and windows were layers and shit. 18:38:11 There's also XDirectFB, which can put X windows into a DirectFB screen. (Don't know how compatible that is either.) 18:38:16 And it would scale (although a lot of graphics are bitmaps) 18:38:17 It was cool 18:38:21 Dunno if you still can 18:38:25 (It used to be the default screenshot format) 18:38:31 Well. non-TC <-> crippled. Monster, referring to some of the interestingness that PS layered in. 18:39:22 Sgeo: I thought that's obvious? Unless you get pedantic. 18:39:50 Not really. 18:39:54 Factor is a Joyoid. 18:39:56 So all concatenative languages are "forthoids"? What's the point of the term "forthoid" then 18:39:59 Ah 18:40:07 It was more of a Forthoid to begin with. 18:40:16 cpressey, non-TC <-> crippled? 18:40:18 Wha? 18:40:22 But now with quotations and the like it's an imperative Joy, rather than a functional Forth. 18:40:24 I thought you were Practical... 18:41:00 * cpressey borrows oerjan's palm frond and swats Phantom_Hoover_ -----###### 18:41:03 Of course non-TC <-> crippled 18:41:07 And HAHAHA @ cpressey being practical 18:41:19 Make a music scale (4/8,5/8,6/8,7/8,8/8) 18:41:39 alise, so all programs are crippled, then? 18:41:41 Or, make a scale (3/6,4/6,5/6,6/6) 18:41:54 If cpressey invented Befunge-93 today, it wouldn't have a defined ASCII representation, it would be based on Minkowski space, it would have only 7 instructions, and the playfield would be 80 x infinity for some mathematical reason. 18:42:05 Or rather, the defined ASCII representation would be crazy and probably 1D. 18:42:15 At least, that's what the little copy of cpressey in my head would do. 18:43:04 Oh? I misconceived, then. 18:43:04 That would be... close. Ish. 18:43:20 Well, we'll never know. 18:43:39 cpressey: And it would only be arguably computable. :P 18:44:18 Its semantics would certainly not depend so unspeakably on those of C, that's for sure. 18:44:42 yoin 18:44:50 Phantom_Hoover_: Should I even ask what "Practical" with a capital P means to you? 18:45:06 Cuz that's, uh, a bit creepy to see. 18:45:28 Like identifying oneself as a Bright, or something. 18:46:04 now 18:46:44 if i don't come back after reboot that means i borked my partition table 18:46:49 brb 18:46:50 Hmm, ByteByteJump is {**(pc+1) = **pc; pc = *(pc+2)}. Is {**(pc+1) = **pc; pc = **pc} TC? 18:47:12 "brbuibmpt" 18:47:28 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 18:49:02 alise: uhhhhhhh 18:49:44 cpressey: Yes? 18:49:50 pc is program counter, of course. 18:49:51 alise: I think it is 18:50:05 cpressey: See, if I want to compete with BytePusher, I have to come up with my own, totally more awesome OISC. 18:50:06 But maybe not 18:50:13 And that has only two operands, making it INSTANTLY SUPERIOR. 18:50:48 I think it is, because I think you can encode SMETANA in it, but my brain isn't really working 18:51:34 Now I think it's not 18:51:45 Shows you how good I am at thi 18:51:48 *this. 18:52:20 AR CH Æ OL OG Y 18:52:29 Oh btw, that P != NP proof was debunked, wasn't it? 18:52:36 Was it? 18:52:45 I heerd rumours, is all. 18:52:52 An August 2010 claim by Vinay Deolalikar, a researcher at HP Labs, received heavy Internet and press attention after being initially described as "seem[ing] to be a relatively serious attempt" by two leading specialists. The proof has been reviewed publicly by academics,[22] and it was found to contain irreparable conceptual-level errors as well as a number of concrete errors and flaws.[23] 18:52:53 Yes. 18:53:17 Irreparable conceptual errors! 18:55:36 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders if you can nicely define division using coinductive nats in Coq. 18:55:49 I think {**pc = **(pc+1); pc = **(pc+1)} is a better instruction. 18:55:52 * alise codes up a VM to play with it 18:57:34 Hmm, an infinite loop is... 18:57:42 So that infinity is S infinity, and hence div n 0 = infinity. 18:58:01 X: DO (X+1) X 18:58:04 I think. 18:58:09 Right? 18:58:59 64K of RAM should be enough for everyone 18:59:03 *everyone. 18:59:49 alise: It depend what you do 19:00:03 For a one instruction computer, it might not be enough for large programs 19:01:13 Hey, ByteByteJump has a major flaw. 19:01:22 The program counter is not exposed in memory. 19:01:47 And so jumps are impossible/ 19:01:52 *? 19:02:18 alise: Is that a flaw? I programmed a BytePusher program, with conditional jumps 19:02:55 Since it has no calculation built-in, you have to use tables, and that makes my "munching squares" program size 3K (plus one byte). 19:03:21 Is {*pc = m[*pc] = m[*pc + 1]} valid C? 19:03:25 That assignment to *pc makes me think not. 19:03:39 alise: yes, although not valid portable C 19:03:45 ais523: meaning? 19:03:53 it's conforming C because I know of at least one C compiler that accepts it, given an appopriate definition for PC 19:03:59 and on which an appropriate definition is actually possible 19:04:06 bullshit 19:04:06 it's UB 19:04:16 The question, is, is it portable and properly defined? 19:04:16 alise: a program can contain UB and be conforming 19:04:21 Of course it is a valid C code, though 19:04:23 what? 19:04:36 "conforming C" means "accepted by at least one C compiler", according to the standard 19:04:42 Any proper C compiler should compile it (as long as you put the semicolon in where it belongs) 19:04:42 it does? 19:04:52 so you can just choose an arbitrary compiler that happens to define the particular UB you're using 19:04:55 ais523, sure about that? I thought it meant following standard 19:04:59 "strictly conforming" is what it needs to be accepted by all 19:05:01 ah 19:05:16 ais523, what if all happens to implement that UB the same way? 19:05:23 that seems unlikely 19:05:35 ais523, true, but would it be strictly conforming then? 19:05:39 no 19:05:46 hm 19:06:06 as it's defined as "conforming + no UB, unspecified behaviour never matters, implementation-defined behaviour never matters" 19:06:52 ais523, hm it could still end up strange if _all_ implementations misimplements a given part 19:07:03 which means there is no compiler accepting the program 19:07:03 then there are no implementatiosn 19:07:07 *implementations 19:07:11 ais523, indeed 19:07:28 Vorpal: you might be interesting to know that the C standard doesn't define behaviour of the programs output by a compiler 19:07:32 ais523, and no program could ever be conforming 19:07:35 fread(x, N, ...) will always read N if the stream has at least N bytes in it, right? 19:07:37 a compiler can just not produce an executable and still be strictly conforming 19:07:38 ais523, ha 19:07:55 ais523, hehe... 19:08:10 alise: no, it can return a lower value if there will eventually be N bytes in the stream but they can't be retrieved immediately for some reason 19:08:36 ais523: this is a file 19:08:37 so meh 19:08:50 the most common reason by far is network timeouts (say NFS), but there are others 19:09:05 but on a regular, local file? 19:09:08 this is just a quick hack, so 19:09:21 for a quick hack, as long as your OS isn't doing some sort of crazy buffering you'll befine 19:09:23 *be fine 19:09:36 ais523, that depend on mount options for the nfs fs in question 19:09:51 I mean, I reimplemented awk in about 10 lines for a quick hack this mornign 19:10:09 of course it wouldn't work for general awk files, but it's good enough for processing autoconf output on a system that doesn't have awk 19:10:15 ais523, I'm pretty sure (due to having used them) that there are mount options for nfs that makes it timeout instead of stall forever 19:10:39 Vorpal: I tend to think in terms of "x can do that" rather than "x does do that" 19:11:04 http://pastie.org/1138253.txt?key=4fz7yhgu7qu0jczaxsla ;; that's the kind of instruction loop I like. 19:11:06 hm okay 19:11:09 for C programming, you know "under circumstances x, y can go wrong" and don't care about knowing the exact details of x 19:12:06 things can go strange for sshfs (fuse based) too. If a file is open it won't time out and unmount if network is lost. Sometimes. 19:12:45 http://pastie.org/1138253.txt?key=4fz7yhgu7qu0jczaxsla 19:12:46 http://pastie.org/1138256.txt 19:12:54 the second of these is likely to be more efficient, right? 19:13:24 Vorpal: reading from a network socket, if read's argument is larger than the packet size then it nearly always returns one packet rather than the amount you specified 19:13:27 thus you have read returning low then 19:13:44 ais523, well yes 19:14:03 ais523, also EOF 19:14:26 you can't read EOF from an unclosed network socket, unless there's an error 19:14:40 alise, GAS‽ I thought you had taste! 19:14:44 well obviously, I meant for streams and standard input 19:15:01 ais523, in the standard input case you could get a "fake" EOF so to speak, from ctrl-d 19:15:03 Phantom_Hoover_: I didn't write it, dude, gcc and clang did. 19:15:28 alise, profile them 19:15:33 alise, best way to find out 19:16:51 the "mov %edx, %edx" seems to do nothing 19:17:07 I mean, that sort of thing is sometimes useful to set flags, but it doesn't seem to actually look at the flags afterwards 19:17:36 unless the m() refers to a flag; I don't understand the syntax 19:18:26 mov doesn't set flags anyway. 19:18:31 ais523, I presume m is a variable from elsewhere 19:18:32 hmm 19:18:36 with -Os it omits that instruction 19:18:37 that is the only way that makes sense 19:18:45 er, wait no 19:18:47 http://pastie.org/1138256.txt 19:18:49 is obviously better, I think 19:18:53 fizzie: ah, am I muddling x86 with other asms? 19:19:03 in 6502, it sets the zero flag, although not the others 19:19:06 m is a variable from elsewhere 19:19:25 http://pastie.org/1138256.txt in clang's output it is just: 19:19:31 vm: 19:19:34 word m[ram_words]; 19:19:53 hmm 19:19:58 word m[ram_words] = {load_addr}; 19:20:01 would this initialise the rest to 0? 19:20:17 alise, that looks like llvm asm 19:20:28 What does? 19:20:34 alise, the word stuff 19:20:41 that's just my #define for int32_t 19:20:46 Phantom_Hoover_: your interrobangs annoy me so much I just set my IRC client to replace interrobangs with normal question marks 19:20:47 load_addr is 1 19:20:49 http://pastie.org/1138256.txt in clang's output it is just: 19:20:49 vm: 19:20:49 word m[ram_words]; 19:20:51 alise, eh? 19:21:00 ............ 19:21:17 alise, well it doesn't make sense 19:21:25 i'm not talking to you 19:21:33 still doesn't make sense though 19:21:49 hmm actually it is m: 19:22:02 ais523, why do the interrobangs annoy you? 19:22:19 cool it segfaults 19:22:21 because it's very rarely used correctly 19:22:37 ais523, it is used to replace !? and/or ?! afaik? 19:22:38 it wasn't then, really, for instance 19:22:41 ais523: I think the usual thing to do is to set flags on arithmetics, not movs, but I really haven't made a survey on this. (My handy single-page messy 6502 instruction chart says LDA/LDX/LDY set both N and Z.) 19:22:47 Vorpal: yes, and I dislike the punctuation generally 19:23:12 ais523, well, he could just switch to use !? or !? then. Are you going to filter that as well? 19:23:16 exclamations are generally annoying 19:23:32 I mean, if someone came in here and ended all their sentences with !, we'd get annoyed quickly 19:23:33 ais523: No they're not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:23:39 an interrobang is just another sort of exclamation 19:23:40 Would we! I don't think we would! 19:23:45 I think we would like it! 19:24:03 alise: it's getting on my nerves already... 19:24:16 Some people! 19:24:19 Okay, I'll stop now. 19:24:33 ais523, yes. But there are reasons to use it. Like: "wow, some quick calculation shows that that the probability for that coincidence is 1 of 10^23!" or similar 19:24:36 bbl food 19:24:52 no, that implies 10 to the 23 factorial to me 19:27:03 Cool, the VM uses 100% of a CPU for its infinite loop. 19:29:46 Gah, how can it segfault? 19:29:51 for (;;) { 19:29:52 m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1]; 19:29:52 m[0] = x; 19:29:52 } 19:29:55 It's all unsigned. 19:29:59 Oh wait, I said a 16-bit machine. Heh. 19:30:13 And coded my thing wrong. 19:31:42 It no worky. 19:32:17 Blah, cpressey, you implement this machine. 19:34:10 And tell me why chr(x&256) + chr(x>>8) doesn't work. 19:34:32 Oops, 19:34:34 *Oops. 19:34:37 & 255 it should be! 19:35:02 Wait, this depends on endianness. 19:35:03 Eurgh! 19:35:16 cpressey: RELIEVE THE PAIN 19:35:21 alise: STOP USING C 19:35:27 * Sgeo puts alise to sleep 19:35:28 Sorry, was away, just came back. 19:35:30 cpressey: BUT IT'S A LOW-LEVEL VM MACHINE THING 19:35:41 Use Forth for low-level stuff! 19:36:11 Haskell first. THEN C. That's my opinion, anyway, not that I always follow it. 19:37:14 cpressey: Okay. Do it in Haskell then. 19:39:13 You could always do it with liberal use of monads. 19:39:28 Look at his smallness 19:39:33 Compared to my tallness 19:39:37 My porcelain doll-ness 19:39:45 My port-in-a-squall-ness 19:39:48 < ais523> I mean, I reimplemented awk in about 10 lines for a quick hack this mornign 19:39:57 ais523: In what language? C?? 19:40:00 shellscript 19:40:07 but I cheated and used a2p 19:40:17 My Kids-in-the-Hall-ness / My Pink-Floyd's-"The-Wall"-ness / My just all in all-ness 19:40:21 the other lines were working around bugs in a2p 19:40:24 My wonderful me-ness 19:40:26 and parsing arguments 19:40:28 My hammer the pe--- 19:40:33 ople can tell 19:40:50 Sorry about spamminess 19:42:16 no, that implies 10 to the 23 factorial to me <-- hm? 19:42:26 the 10^23! 19:42:48 ais523, "1 out of 10^23" means "pretty unlikely" to me in that context 19:43:18 Vorpal demonstrates new heights of reading comprehension. 19:43:23 He could get a Ph.D. in it at this rate. 19:43:59 Sgeo: You are forgiven. But only if you are drunk. 19:44:07 eeep 19:44:09 I'm not 19:44:12 Tired though 19:44:27 OK, I'll let "tired" go. THIS time. 19:45:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:45:22 alise, oh right, now I get what he meant 19:45:26 Actually, Haskell is a pain 19:45:34 anyway, my point was "!" is useful in some cases 19:45:36 (for something as simple and array-y as this) 19:45:49 * cpressey wants to use Python. 19:45:52 Yes, it's useful if you want to speak about fractionals. 19:45:52 * cpressey stops himself. 19:45:57 I should make an esolang that uses interrobang in it's syntax... 19:45:57 hm 19:46:22 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:46:35 Remember to make it do some sort of combination of ? and !. 19:46:47 fizzie, well yes 19:46:57 Please don't make it isomorphic (if that's the term) to BF 19:47:19 fizzie, or maybe it should be like intercals over-strike stuff 19:47:23 cpressey: 19:47:25 void vm() 19:47:25 { 19:47:25 word x; 19:47:25 for (;;) { 19:47:26 m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1]; 19:47:28 m[0] = x; 19:47:30 } 19:47:32 } 19:47:34 16-bit values, full 16-bit memory 19:47:36 fizzie, as in either the unicode code point, or !? are allowed 19:47:40 it loads a raw memory image 19:47:43 (two bytes to the value) 19:47:47 fizzie, like it does for ." 19:47:50 initial m[0] is assigned by the memory file 19:48:13 a program that takes a bunch of integers separated by whitespace and spits out a \0-padded memory image plus the first value being "1" to point to the first number entered would be cool too 19:48:19 (to pave the way for an assembler) 19:48:23 PROCEED, SLAVE 19:48:51 Vorpal: ITRALCEN or whatever it was called was going to use interrobang for its metaevaluation stuff. 19:48:58 ^scramble INTERCAL 19:48:58 ITRALCEN 19:49:02 ITRALCEN. 19:49:10 alise, ah 19:49:16 alise, sounds cool 19:49:19 of course, I never actually ended up doing it. 19:49:23 Vorpal: it was 19:49:28 almost all the INTERCAL language was implemented using it 19:49:30 theoretically 19:49:31 alise, ah, right, it was you who made the idea up 19:49:36 I was about to ask 19:49:46 it was going to accept ?! too 19:49:48 alise: http://pastie.org/1138303 19:49:48 in the same way 19:49:54 fwiw 19:49:56 alise, heh 19:50:02 cpressey: Well /that/ bit is the easy part. 19:50:31 -!- nooga has joined. 19:50:32 alise: Well, you asked. 19:50:38 :P 19:50:43 cpressey, why lua? 19:50:43 i'm having wild problems with restoring ext3 partition 19:50:54 Vorpal: Haskell lost. Then Python lost. 19:50:59 * cpressey smacks forehead 19:51:07 Shoulda done it in Falcon or R! 19:51:09 -!- derdon has joined. 19:51:11 cpressey, and the problem you are trying to solve is? 19:51:25 lua is nice, besides the syntax 19:51:29 cpressey, DO IT IN FALCON 19:51:33 Vorpal is doing a great imitation of ignoring me while proving he isn't 19:51:38 it looks like pascalified javascript 19:52:32 Phantom_Hoover_: Damn, I would have to look up how they do arrays. 19:52:44 alise, um? am I ignoring you? 19:52:56 I picked Lua because I knew I could just start using m as if it was an array, and it would be. 19:53:27 Vorpal: No, but you asked what cpressey was doing just after I FORCED him to do it. (Well, not exactly that.) 19:54:10 alise, I was wondering what the goal of the program was. That function didn't look like it was a complete program to me 19:54:34 It's called an esolang. 19:54:37 Vorpal: It's alise's putative successor to ByteByteJump. 19:54:40 The definedness of "m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1];" looks unclear, but perhaps this was already spoken about (I'm not really following the discussion here). 19:54:45 Although his program is, uh, incomplete. 19:54:51 fizzie: Huh, surely /that/'s ok? 19:54:53 I guess not. 19:55:00 If m[0] == 0, especially. 19:55:00 Wait, why would it not be? 19:55:10 alise, indeed. No input or output of any kind. Pretty useless as it is. Which is why I asked 19:55:15 but VM I guess then 19:55:27 Vorpal: It's a reference implementation. 19:55:32 right 19:55:45 I coded the /interesting/ part of the semantics. 19:55:46 alise, looks OISCy? 19:55:49 I'm basically trying to usurp BytePusher in awesomeness. 19:55:51 Vorpal: Yes. 19:56:23 A B means "*A = *B; jump to address B" 19:57:44 -!- tombom has joined. 19:57:52 alise, is there any IO or such (possibly by using memory mapped IO registers or similar)? 19:58:17 Vorpal: In a computer, yes. In the architecture, no. 19:58:25 Oh, and memory location 0 is the program counter, of course. 19:58:40 hm 19:58:42 Jumping to 0 is *quite* fun, in the "HOW DOES THIS WORK" sense. 19:58:48 alise, and this is not a computerish implementation? 19:58:51 The first operand of your first instruction becomes a second one. 19:58:55 Vorpal: It's just the basis for one. 19:59:12 The actual computer will be like BytePusher but more awesome. A proper sound chip rather than just raw PCM. 19:59:19 Synthesiser, that is. 19:59:26 All done memory-mapped, naturally. 19:59:31 alise, does the architecture reserve some specific memory addresses for such usage? To prevent a situation where different implementations put them in completely different areas 19:59:46 Ah, the world of esoputers. 19:59:54 No. ARM and Z80 don't tell you what the computer should look like either. 20:00:03 They're ISAs; the rest is up to the computer architecture. 20:00:23 hm. Are you going to define such an architecture as well? 20:00:38 alise: I'm not even sure about the "m[m[0]] = x;" part. There's no additional sequence points, and if m[0] == 0, you have a write to m[0], and a read from m[0], and you're only allowed to read the previous value "only to determine the value to be stored", which doesn't seem to be the case here. I don't think there's any rule that'd let you apply any "but m[0] *must* be read before the m[m[0]] write can know where it's writing to"; but there's a horribly long th 20:00:39 read about these and related points in comp.lang.c. 20:00:43 The actual computer will be like BytePusher but more awesome. A proper sound chip rather than just raw PCM. 20:00:43 Synthesiser, that is. 20:00:43 All done memory-mapped, naturally. 20:00:44 (Adding the "= m[m[0]+1]" bit makes it even less clear, though.) 20:01:00 fizzie: Blargh. 20:01:17 It's not a big deal, I can fix it. 20:01:27 Definitely want an in-memory PC though. 20:01:29 That shit is FUN. 20:01:47 "0 X" is an unconditional jump to X. :-) 20:02:01 since *X gets put in the program counter, but then it gets set to X 20:02:13 fizzie, in practise it seems tricky to be able to resolve the location of m[m[0]] before reading m[0] 20:02:32 Vorpal: Yes, well, that's you using logic again. 20:02:48 fizzie, but with the = m[m[0]+1] it is harder to know 20:03:29 fizzie: m[m[0]] is just **m. 20:03:32 fizzie, could have memory doing strange things like erasing m[m[0]] while reading m[m[0]+1]. For some sort of arcane memory 20:03:33 Which I'm pretty sure is valid, you know. 20:03:35 Er, no it's not. 20:03:39 It's *(m + *m). 20:03:42 Which I guess is more iffy. 20:03:44 flash? Though I doubt anyone uses that for main memory 20:03:51 But what if m is in 0? :-) 20:04:00 omg flash for core. 20:04:12 cpressey, yeah, presumably NOR then 20:04:13 That would be... sluggish 20:04:14 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:04:23 cpressey, would be worse if NAND 20:04:27 And take a lot of power, relatively speaking 20:04:33 in fact I can't see how NAND could even work for it 20:04:39 -!- derdon has joined. 20:06:03 hm I wonder what type of microprocessor is used in a normal harddrive... 20:06:47 Would Marilyn vos Savant be a good fit for this channel? 20:06:50 Hypothetically? 20:07:17 -!- augur has joined. 20:07:50 she's annoying 20:08:00 hm I think my desktop has at least 5 processor cores, considering CPU, GPU, two harddrives, one dvd and one sound card. GPU probably consists of more than one in reality 20:08:21 probably because of her surname :) 20:08:28 (I know the sound card has a DSP, it's a SB Live 5.1 with that EMU10k DSP thingy) 20:09:11 Sgeo: ... are you *sure* you're not drunk? 20:09:28 Can she even program? 20:09:36 Unless someone drugged me with alcohol... 20:09:40 Has she done anything other than popularising Monty Hall and other simple problems and, at one point, having a very high IQ? 20:09:41 "A few months after the announcement by Andrew Wiles that he had proved Fermat's Last Theorem, vos Savant published her book The World's Most Famous Math Problem in October 1993.[15] The book surveys the history of Fermat's last theorem as well as other mathematical mysteries. Controversy came from the book's criticism of Wiles' proof; vos Savant was accused of misunderstanding mathematical induction, proof by contradiction, 20:10:22 Wait, was that the incorrect announcement, or the correct one? 20:10:29 Sgeo, what about other drugs than alcohol then? 20:10:35 "Her assertion that Wiles' proof should be rejected for its use of non-Euclidean geometry was especially contested." 20:10:38 Bad fit. 20:10:47 Vorpal, other drugs wouldn't make me drunk 20:10:53 cpressey: hahaahahaha 20:11:05 Vorpal: no, this is definitely alcohol or nothing 20:11:17 although at this level Sgeo should be having trouble typing with accuracy 20:11:26 also, 1993 would be the original 20:11:29 but clearly her criticism is bullshit 20:11:35 alise, hm 20:11:53 I remember when a girl IMed me with "I 20:11:59 "I'm aseunk" 20:12:10 Vorpal: 20:12:11 What if Marilyn von Savant is actually ALL OF US... man... 20:12:20 [universe changes] 20:12:27 WHY ARE THE WALLS BREATHING I BLAME WHOEVER DEVELOPS ACTIVEWORLDS 20:12:37 [universe changes] 20:12:38 ... 20:13:40 alise, heh 20:13:45 alise, stage 101 is fun 20:13:50 Sgeo: stop cheating 20:13:54 alise, yeah those are different drugs 20:14:04 Vorpal: CONGRATULATIONS YOU GOT THE JOKE 20:14:07 Oh, you've been dot-act-2-ing again? 20:14:10 alise, is it cheating if the code is given in the instructions? 20:14:22 Sgeo: what instructions? 20:14:24 i suppose not 20:14:27 what does it say? 20:14:36 Um 20:14:44 Use Google Translate 20:14:45 hold on 20:15:00 "The password "086-754" to enter, can play a bonus stage." 20:15:10 Bah 20:15:13 Complete 100 to get it 20:15:14 :| 20:15:18 Hmm? 20:15:29 It's 101-108 for a reason! :| 20:15:32 alise, but for all I know there could be some drug other than alcohol that gives similar symptoms. I mean, the phase-space of possible drugs is hardly small enough to be completely explored. 20:15:41 Gah, I can't recall how many stages I cleared; just that it was >90, <100. 20:15:44 alise, when I type in the code, I don't see 1-100 in the list 20:15:53 Just 101-108 20:15:58 Vorpal: afaik alcohol is fairly unique in its effects 20:16:04 Sgeo: yes, but they come after 100, obviously 20:16:08 fizzie: how do you do 55? 20:16:13 I cannot figure it out. 20:16:51 alise, is it proven that no future drug could give similar effects? Maybe some mad scientist gave Sgeo a sample of a new drug to test it out on him! 20:17:04 alise: Do you have that 1-100 code somewhere? I don't think I can manage to do 1-54 to see 55 for you. 20:17:16 fizzie: http://jayisgames.com/archives/2007/04/dot_action_2.php#walkthrough 20:17:19 has codes for every level 20:17:32 At least I dug it out of the swf myself back then. :p 20:17:35 Alcohol is chemically simpler than most drugs. From what I understand, it does what it does because your brain is busy "digesting" it. 20:18:12 As opposed to, say, psychoactives which bind to various neural receptors. 20:19:01 cpressey, hm okay 20:19:15 So, fwiw, I think it would be hard to come up with an "alcohol-alike" drug 20:19:34 alise: IIRC, you just need to hit the middle one of the three green blocks on the left, and keep pressing right; it'll keep flipping around, but it'll bounce from the above/below greens so that you can catch the blue. 20:19:36 right 20:19:55 fizzie: aha! 20:20:12 101 is really, really fun 20:20:38 cpressey, btw I remember a funny video showing the effects of various drugs and driving. (not using actual drugs of course) 20:20:42 It might take a few tries to work out right, it's not exactly a very straight-forward thing. 20:20:44 no clue where it was I saw it 20:20:50 And the only bonus level that I solved, iirc 20:21:02 Vorpal: I know which one you're talking about. 20:21:05 Relatively amusing. 20:21:15 alise, iirc lsd+driving was hilarious 20:21:22 alise, hm I think the video was in German? 20:21:25 yes 20:22:23 fizzie: which is the middle one? 20:22:48 ah, on the left 20:23:46 I _think_ I did 105 20:24:39 alise, cpressey: found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHDeMMzkHrI 20:24:44 i did 55 woot 20:25:01 107 is just a race against the clock 20:25:33 "More specifically, ethanol acts in the central nervous system by binding to the GABA-A receptor, increasing the effects of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA (i.e. it is a positive allosteric modulator)[68]." 20:26:30 lsd+driving is suicide 20:26:48 108 is a tricky race against thge clock 20:27:08 nooga, most likely every one of those is suicide 20:27:16 mmm 20:27:23 to varying degree 20:27:31 marijuana is harmless i think 20:27:37 when it comes to driving 20:27:47 cannabis probably has the least effect 20:27:51 but then it has the least effect of everything 20:27:53 nooga, I don't think it was in the video though? Unless it's German name is very different 20:28:06 Well, the video isn't exactly true to real life... 20:28:12 alise, well of course 20:28:16 I don't think the primary effect of LSD is seeing a creepy bunny. 20:28:17 alise, it was supposed to be funny 20:28:21 alise, indeed. 20:28:48 on lsd you would probably love the car you're driving and feel strong emmotional connection to the trees standing by the road 20:28:58 alise, with "those" in " nooga, most likely every one of those is suicide" I was referring to those in the video though 20:28:59 gahaha@56 20:29:02 Vorpal: "Haschisch" is second one in the video. 20:29:19 nooga: at a regular dose isn't it a bit arguable whether you'd recognise them as trees or not? 20:29:25 fizzie, is that same as marijuana ? 20:29:36 fizzie, I don't speak German 20:29:38 and then comes the pink-blue, glowing squirrelephant that pursues you 20:29:51 Vorpal: It's the same as en:hashish, which is same stuff in a bit different form. 20:29:57 ah 20:30:03 alise, stage 101 20:30:04 Now 20:30:07 fizzie, can't say I'm a drug expert 20:30:29 Sgeo: unlike you i wish to play the game in order from start to finish 20:30:53 But I don't think 101 is after the finish 20:31:06 101 typically comes after 100. 20:31:24 Even if it's technically speaking in a different list. 20:32:14 I'd like to see a changelog between 1.01 and 1.10, though. 20:33:07 hm? 20:33:12 was it changed? 20:33:15 dot action 2 1.10 :D 20:33:32 [2008-11-23 22:56:25] That http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ link is to version 1.01; the original you pasted -- http://dagobah.biz/flash/dotact2.swf -- is 1.10. 20:33:44 There were two versions at least then. 20:33:57 Ah. 20:33:59 Huh. 20:34:03 I've been playing 1.01. 20:35:01 Oh, right, we had a bit of a competition going on with oklopol. 20:36:10 I gave up at level 93, oklopol went on at least up to 97. 20:36:59 (At least 98, it seems.) 20:40:40 I did 57 with 1 TIME left. Fuck yeah. 20:40:47 fizzie: did we ever figure out how long a TIME was? 20:40:54 brb 20:41:22 I'm not sure; I remember color-picking and figuring out the formula for the background RGB color. 20:42:05 But there are many. 20:42:35 brb 20:42:44 Based on a quick manual check, TIME seems to be decremented approximately at a rate of 4 units/second. 20:42:51 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 20:44:52 I actually died on 101 this time 20:47:25 fizzie, try 101-108? 20:49:24 101 101 101 101 101 101 101 20:51:02 fizzie: on stage 58, do you know how to avoid dying on the very last bit? 20:51:05 if you space you die 20:51:10 if you wait you fall and die 20:58:02 did 58 20:59:08 Oh, I'm too late, then. 20:59:43 And I've tried the 101-108 levels back then, too. 21:02:14 alise, someone killed my ghost 21:03:27 * Phantom_Hoover_ → reboot 21:05:53 What I most hate in the acted-on dots part twain is the time-limited levels. (Okay, all of them are time-limited theoretically speaking, but those where the main challenge comes from the time limit. I just tried 60 for a lark, and ran out of time on the last "terrace" there, even though I didn't do any obvious time-wasting on the way there. 21:05:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:05:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:07:55 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:08:01 fizzie: 59 is evil 21:08:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:08:03 with the time 21:08:52 fizzie: Dot Action 2 is even more than nintendo hard :) 21:09:57 It's not IWTBTG levels 21:10:25 -!- comex has changed nick to comjex. 21:10:34 Says you, who hasn't even played all 100 levels yet. 21:10:48 fizzie: I have. 21:10:51 Ages ago. 21:10:53 Just not in order. 21:11:01 Or did you mean Sgeo? 21:11:12 Sgeo is who I meant. 21:11:47 Y'know, I think I hate just about everything about the UI of video game emulators these days. 21:11:55 DOSBox? 21:12:12 And ROM management tools. 21:12:14 They all suck. 21:12:20 Especially in their treatment of files. 21:12:44 * Sgeo WTFs at a non-programmer using the word "callbacks" 21:13:15 pikhq: Play Dot Action 2. No other games are necessary. 21:13:44 * Sgeo growls at stage 35 21:14:06 It's easy, just the damn time limit 21:14:48 did 59 21:14:50 YES 21:15:00 Sgeo: Ha, you are so pitiful! 21:15:03 Here's the common ROM handling format: 21:15:27 foo.ext. A dump of the actual contents of the ROM chip. 21:15:28 fizzie: WHAT THE FUCK AT 60 21:15:29 Nothing else. 21:16:01 Metadata? Bah. Any hints about what hardware is needed to run it? Baaaah. Unreliable heuristics instead! 21:16:07 fizzie: How do you do it??? 21:16:45 That last bit is mostly an issue for systems such as the NES and SNES where the cartridge could actually have addon hardware hooked into the system. 21:17:21 (NES with its memory mappers, the SNES with its memory mappers and the ability to have some other processor run on the main bus in tandem with the main processor) 21:18:24 < Sgeo> alise, someone killed my ghost 21:18:27 ... 21:18:32 Maybe *I'm* drunk. 21:18:50 cpressey: NetHack 21:18:54 alise, no 21:18:55 fizzie: HOW DO YOU DO 60 21:19:08 Crawl 21:19:10 Yes 21:19:22 Awful. 21:19:31 Y'know what? I should write frontends to a bunch of (best available free) emulators. Just to get it not awful. 21:19:38 And some sort of ROM management tool. 21:19:38 alise, you wanna watch on FooTV? 21:19:47 Aaaaaand define a nice metadata format. 21:20:04 Sgeo: no, i hate crawl 21:20:05 pikhq: XML! 21:20:11 ?! 21:20:31 alise: Maybe. 21:20:42 pikhq: No. 21:21:02 I tried 60, and like I said, couldn't quite make it on time. But I'm bad at swimming upwards. Can't recall if there was any tricks from the previous playthrough. 21:21:07 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:21:25 Also: ROM patching is absolutely completely and utterly bonkers. 21:21:40 alise, but you downloaded it recently! 21:21:43 And played with it! 21:21:46 Sgeo: Yes. 21:21:47 And loved it! 21:21:47 It sucked. 21:21:52 No I didn't. 21:22:03 You didn't love pitting monsters against eachother? ;) 21:22:17 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:22:17 that was fun, and why did you say ";)" 21:22:21 but that wasn't playing crawl 21:22:22 -!- wareya has joined. 21:22:29 pikhq: I'd be happy if people just stopped calling things that clearly came on a floppy, "ROMs". 21:22:45 cpressey: Hah. 21:22:51 Completely diferent problem, of course. 21:22:57 fizzie: HOW DO YU DO 60 RTJHO 21:23:06 36 done 21:23:08 Oh, also. I would *love* to punch whoever is responsible for "plugins" on emulators for more recent systems. 21:23:13 THEY DONT FUCKING WORK. 21:23:29 cpressey: Download your C64 ROMs here! (No, not the rom files vice/any-other-emulator needs.) 21:25:38 fizzie: I'm actually having trouble thinking of levels more demented than DA2's, which is a problem, as I'd quite like to create DSDE. 21:25:52 -!- alise has left (?). 21:25:55 -!- alise has joined. 21:25:56 whoops 21:26:00 (Dot Super Death Edition.) 21:26:27 I hereby employ pikhq to come up with a dodgy half-phonetic-English-kana, one-or-two-kanji-words version of that title. 21:26:45 Dottu SUPER DEATH: edition! 21:26:51 Dottu edition: SUPER DEATH! 21:27:09 alise, is 37 a race against the clock? 21:27:11 I can't tell yet 21:27:24 Sgeo: no 21:28:39 alise: Sooo.... 点新死エディション? 21:29:12 "Explore new death point" 21:29:15 wat XD 21:30:04 Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous. 21:30:05 ("ten shin shi edishon" in Hepburn, "ten sin si etìīsiȳon" in craziness) 21:30:30 pikhq: What does it translate literally as? 21:30:37 Also, :D Edishon 21:30:41 alise: Dot new death edition. 21:30:50 That's not super. 21:31:14 新, "new", was commonly used in the names of games where "Super" was in the US. 21:31:19 And the rest of the world. 21:31:37 "New Mario Brothers"? 21:31:41 * cpressey disillusioned 21:31:52 cpressey: No, think about games on the SNES. 21:31:55 There is a New Super Mario Brothers. 21:32:02 So is it New New Mario Brothers in Japanese? 21:32:10 alise: No, it was New Super Mario Brothers. 21:32:17 pikhq: Also, dot? Not dottu? :-( 21:32:20 RACIST. 21:32:45 alise: "Dottu" would more normally be romanised as "dottsu". 21:33:23 pikhq: How can the Japanese pronounce dot without tu after it?! 21:33:25 It is unpossible! 21:33:49 alise: They can't. 21:34:02 Well, they can do "dotto". 21:34:13 Which is how it would end up in bastardised English. 21:34:15 Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous. <-- uh... What other characters do you think look dangerous? So we can have something to compare with 21:34:26 pikhq: So how come you detranslated it as "dot"? :'( 21:34:27 alise: Would you like it to just be bastardised English? 21:34:29 That's racism. 21:34:34 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 21:34:41 ("ten shin shi edishon" in Hepburn, "ten sin si etìīsiȳon" in craziness) ;; Wait, I see no japanised "dot" here. 21:34:45 Kanaised, rather. 21:34:49 alise: "Ten". 21:34:53 Wat. 21:35:03 alise: Japanese for dot. 21:35:13 Right, but what is it in ludicrous English kana? :P 21:35:18 ドット・スーパ・デース・エディション 21:35:25 All ... of that? 21:35:35 "Dotto suupa deesu edishon". 21:36:58 ドット is dotto? 21:37:02 Yes. 21:37:04 Or "tò'to sūhå tềsu etèīsiȳon". 21:37:12 ドット新死エディション 21:37:20 Erm. 21:37:23 So then this is "dotto new death edishon"? 21:37:26 "tò'to sûhå tềsu etèīsiȳon". 21:37:28 alise: Yes. 21:37:31 Sweet 21:37:36 My game's new title 21:37:48 Isn't that one of the numbers there? 21:37:52 Digits, that is. 21:37:57 Gah, your "discussion" (or the "dotto" part, anyway) made the Tenshi ni Narumon opening theme start to play in my head. "Thanks." 21:38:18 alise: ? 21:38:29 エ 21:38:33 Had I not died on the jump, I would only have had 76 time to do that maze 21:38:36 Time may be a factor 21:38:48 alise: No. 21:38:52 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:39:30 一二三四五六七八九十 There's the numbers 1 through ten. 21:39:50 Ah. Just looked similar, then. 21:39:59 pikhq: Hey, it's uppercase Xi. :P 21:40:01 What's zero? 21:40:02 (iti ni san yon kò roku siti hati kiȳû sìȳû) 21:40:25 alise: 零 21:40:47 Ha. 21:41:12 That is not normally used. 21:41:16 pikhq: So is "ドット新死エディション" actually comprehensible to your average Japanese-speaker? 21:41:19 Also, what? They just ignore zero? 21:41:21 alise: Yes. 21:41:23 Japanese mathematics fuck yeah. 21:41:27 alise: And no, they don't ignore zero. 21:41:31 pikhq: Even "edishon"? 21:41:35 They use Arabic numerals. 21:41:37 And yes. 21:42:19 Using the kanji for the numbers is a bit like spelling it out in English. 21:42:34 * Phantom_Hoover finishes watching Turkish Star Wars 21:43:12 alise: Japanese has a lot of bastardised English in it. 21:47:32 Phantom_Hoover, why did you watch that at all? 21:47:54 Vorpal, because it is hilarious. 21:47:59 Phantom_Hoover, how so? 21:48:00 ? 21:48:04 Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous. <-- uh... What other characters do you think look dangerous? So we can have something to compare with 21:48:05 ! does 21:48:14 it's for the lava/electric fence (TOTALLY LAVA) 21:48:16 in dot action 2 21:48:20 alise, ah hm 21:48:33 alise, and ! is in use? Or not wide enough? 21:48:38 Vorpal, it just is. 21:48:40 what about ☠ 21:48:43 it's a full block 21:48:46 so ! doesn't really look right 21:48:53 ais523: haha, i think i'd prefer to keep it ascii :) 21:48:54 The training montage is the funniest ever. 21:48:59 or ⚠ 21:49:05 ais523, what's the first one meant to be? 21:49:07 hmm, aren't really many choices in ASCII 21:49:12 Phantom_Hoover: skull and crossbones 21:49:21 Not for me. 21:49:22 alise, hm... X does look somewhat dangerous. # doesn't. 21:49:27 can't think of any other char 21:49:27 Phantom_Hoover: ? 21:49:33 Vorpal: # is the walls 21:49:35 # is typical for walls, on ASCII maps 21:49:37 X looks a bit like walls, though... 21:49:41 alise, nice skull btw 21:49:42 It looks like a dagger with the end curled around. 21:49:43 err 21:49:46 ais523, ^ 21:49:47 ~ works for liquids, like lava 21:50:00 ais523, doesn't look very dangerous 21:50:06 or you could use ^ 21:50:11 ais523, isn't # corridor in nethack? 21:50:16 spiky, and is used for traps in roguelikes 21:50:18 wait, no 21:50:25 Vorpal: for lots of things, including corridors 21:50:40 ais523: it's really an electric fence 21:50:41 ais523, hm 21:50:44 (it keeps its shape and can stand alone) 21:50:54 you often get e.g. T shapes, meaning ^ would look a bit strange 21:50:59 I've used - for fences before 21:51:05 -!- Killerkid has joined. 21:51:08 but that would look even stranger for a T shape 21:51:14 alise, what about |-|-|-|-|-| ? Fence posts 21:51:15 what about % 21:51:18 % looks kind of nasty, to me. 21:51:23 Vorpal: err, one character 21:51:26 perhaps % 21:51:28 alise, hm okay 21:51:31 although it's a bit ambiguous 21:51:39 I still need to figure out ones for green (flips the level upside down) 21:51:43 and red (gives you fence protection) 21:51:47 % would be good for green 21:51:48 alise, I was just about to say that % looks editable! 21:51:53 it looks like flipping, somehow 21:51:57 Vorpal: *edible 21:52:01 alise, err yeah 21:52:16 alise, should be "eatable" really 21:52:28 logically I mean 21:52:41 not sure what evil-protection should be 21:52:49 $? it is somewhat valuable, I guess, but that seems strange. 21:52:55 perhaps @ 21:53:00 hm 21:53:35 alise, what about ! like nethack potion 21:53:49 special effect for some time and such 21:53:53 You know what would be useful? If the OS could send a signal to a process meaning "Please reduce your memory consumption". 21:54:12 Vorpal: they're full block-width too 21:54:18 i.e. they all take up as much space as a # 21:54:22 just different colours 21:54:28 alise, so monospace font? 21:54:36 alise, and @ should be the player I think 21:54:46 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 21:54:46 yes I know I'm nethack influenced here 21:54:56 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 21:55:06 Vorpal: yes, I thought that, but I realised that it can't be 21:55:11 because 21:55:12 alise, oh? 21:55:18 you can start in mid-air or on the ground 21:55:20 for instance 21:55:21 @ 21:55:22 # 21:55:25 is this standing on the ground 21:55:27 right 21:55:29 or falling from the top of that cell on to the ground? 21:55:33 maybe it is obvious? but 21:55:34 @ 21:55:35 X 21:55:35 < Vorpal> alise, so monospace font? 21:55:41 here you want to be falling on to the X at the start 21:55:45 not on it 21:55:49 How I wish it were not! 21:55:50 alise, what was # and X? 21:55:53 so I think I'll have to specify it some other way 21:55:59 alise, they both look pretty solid 21:56:02 Vorpal: # is wall/ground/floor/whatever, X is evil electric fence 21:56:06 solid, sure, but deadly 21:56:17 also, it's hollow if you have ZET 21:56:24 which you get from red blocks for a certain amount of time 21:56:32 hm 21:56:45 alise, starting on top of one at the beginning of a level sounds very evil 21:57:18 alise: How big is a Dot Action playfield, in grid cells? 21:57:22 It's normal 21:57:27 Vorpal: well, you start falling on one 21:57:27 in a few 21:57:34 e.g. the one with 1 time 21:57:37 Just move right or whatever 21:57:38 or was it 0 time, i forget 21:57:43 1 time = 1/4 second 21:57:48 0 time = game ends as soon as it starts 21:57:54 alise, oh right, unrealistic physics for in-air movement 21:57:57 alise, in the list, the time is listed 21:58:03 most platformers have that 21:58:08 (you have to press jump and right, if you hit off the ceiling you fall quicker) 21:58:12 (making you fall on to the block in time) 21:58:15 cpressey: Pretty big 21:58:18 cpressey: Bigger than 80x24 21:59:11 Hmm, there's no TV Tropes drinking game for Turkish Star Wars. 21:59:13 alise, anyway you said it was unclear if you stand on ground or are falling from top of tile? 21:59:18 Should be pretty simple. 21:59:25 Vorpal: yes 21:59:26 alise, does that mean the player is smaller than a tile? 21:59:33 exactly one tile big 21:59:36 but he can be on half a tile 21:59:45 alise, and half another? 21:59:51 yes 21:59:52 "Take a sip every time the Indiana Jones theme plays or the hero attacks someone by bouncing on a trampoline." 21:59:53 you could put it one tile up and say it's always on the ground 21:59:56 to the same effect, probably 21:59:56 but 22:00:01 what if there's another square there 22:00:01 alise, thus everything is in fact 2x2 tiles big? 22:00:19 apart from movement 22:00:25 alise, time is most certainly a factor in 37 22:00:27 Vorpal: no 22:00:32 Vorpal: he can be on 1/whateverth of a tile too 22:00:37 Sgeo: only if you suck 22:00:42 Vorpal: (however pixels high he is) 22:00:47 Vorpal: continuous movement 22:00:47 alise, hard to translate to ascii that 22:01:01 but he can only start in one tile, i think 22:01:02 not sure 22:01:12 alise, still rather bad 22:01:16 hrrm 22:01:27 Phantom_Hoover: There's Turkish Star Trek! 22:01:31 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7185067049150068960 22:01:43 :D 22:01:54 Does it have TRAMPOLINING 22:01:56 Funky opening music. 22:01:59 Phantom_Hoover: it has Mr. Spak 22:02:01 alise, with unicode there is probably some symbol that exists for several different "placements" in a char. But since you wanted ASCII only... 22:02:08 "Overview: This Turkish version of Star Trek is a complete rip off of the original Star Trek series, only the main character in this is a lecherous drunk accompanied by an entire soundboard of wacky effects. Everything about this film is below Z-grade." 22:02:26 Sounds like Turkish Star Wars.... 22:02:27 Vorpal: I'm just going to have START x y or something, probably. 22:02:34 alise, oh it is not just a texted version? But a rip-off? 22:02:40 Phantom_Hoover: And it uses clips too, apparently. 22:02:42 Vorpal: yes 22:02:45 same with Turkish Star Wars 22:02:48 aha 22:02:50 Does it have King Leonidas? 22:02:52 they both use /clips from the original/, too 22:02:53 alise: I was thinking this would be a good candidate for a C64 game, with a sprite for the player. You could do an 80x50 playfield if your player sprite was really tiny (like, 2 pixels square.) 22:03:00 LOL 22:03:05 after the star trek theme and their own crazy theme 22:03:08 they do the star trek theme again 22:03:12 why??? 22:03:14 Ha 22:03:22 cpressey: That would be awesome. 22:03:24 These films make very little sense. 22:03:34 The Captain's logbook. Star-date blah blah. 22:03:40 alise, which star trek theme? 22:03:43 TOS? 22:03:44 Phantom_Hoover: I can't remember being on the payroll 22:03:45 Vorpal: yes 22:03:49 Ooh-aaaaah oh oh oh oh oh aaaaaaaah 22:03:51 In what little backstory TSW has, I gather that the world has been blown up several times. 22:03:55 Oh oh ohhhh aaaaah aah ahah ah ah ahohhhh 22:04:04 Hmm, that sounds inappropriate over IRC. 22:04:07 alise, I'm trying to remember the TOS theme... was ages ago I watched non-movie TOS 22:04:15 Vorpal: Click the video and hear 22:04:23 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7185067049150068960 22:04:24 * Vorpal finds it on youtube 22:04:27 Hope you have a gvideo-download 22:04:33 Vorpal, not on Youtube. 22:04:57 Phantom_Hoover, um the theme I meant 22:05:04 Vorpal: there were 3 versions 22:05:05 for each series 22:05:09 alise, oh? 22:05:17 two with crazy female vocals (one with them drowning out everything else) 22:05:21 (the other with it mixed in) 22:05:24 one without (series 1) 22:05:37 "Does it bother you, that I have a different structure than human, Doc?" -- Mr. Spak 22:05:56 "Mr. Spock please don't be upset. We appreciate that you Vulcans are superior species." 22:05:57 this one had female voices 22:06:01 which don't remember at all 22:06:14 "Upset? Probably, you forgot that such an illogical emotion does not exist on us." 22:06:52 alise, when did they use which theme? 22:06:53 this has just as good writing as TOS :-) 22:07:04 Vorpal: 1 was manly and unfeminine 22:07:10 i forget the ordering of the mixed in / drowning one 22:07:16 i think 3 is the one that had it drowning out everything else creepily 22:07:25 HAHAHAH @ THE TRANSPORTER GRAPHICS 22:07:33 alise, but when did they use them? 22:07:37 Vorpal: ??? 22:07:39 alise, for mirror universe and such? 22:07:42 Vorpal: the three series of TOS 22:07:45 alise, aha 22:07:48 each had a different variation on the theme 22:07:49 alise, do the action scenes have TRAMPOLINES? 22:07:54 no female, female mixed in, female drowned out 22:07:58 i forget the ordering of the latter two 22:07:59 alise, god I had forgotten how long TOS ran 22:08:01 Phantom_Hoover: dunno 22:08:04 Vorpal: yes, not long :P 22:08:08 but too long :P 22:08:17 but just long enough for it to be syndicated striped 22:08:18 which was vital for TNG 22:08:21 well 22:08:23 vital for TOS' popularity 22:08:25 which lead to TNG 22:08:40 but just long enough for it to be syndicated striped <-- eh? 22:08:53 I understood each word but wtf is "syndicated striped" 22:09:11 striped = one episode a day 22:09:22 ah 22:09:24 *stripped, maybe 22:09:25 I forget the term 22:09:32 yes 22:09:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripping_(television) 22:09:41 alise, ah I found the original without vocals 22:09:50 sounds jazzy 22:09:55 well in part 22:10:02 alise, I much prefer the TNG music. 22:10:55 Vorpal: speaking of swapping music for mirror universe episodes 22:11:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4nceCmigAM ;; normal Enterprise theme 22:11:06 alise, which enterprise? 22:11:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfbsZRbwbJ4 ;; "In a Mirror, Darkly" theme 22:11:10 Vorpal: ENT 22:11:16 alise, as in the last one? 22:11:17 Star Trek: Enterprise 22:11:17 Bleugh, awful. 22:11:18 yes 22:11:24 Phantom_Hoover: The series? 22:11:26 Yeah, it is. 22:11:31 No, the theme. 22:11:32 "In a Mirror, Darkly" was actually good, though. 22:11:37 Oh. 22:11:37 alise, oh wasn't that very un-spacy music too? guitar iirc? 22:11:38 I don't watch Star Trek... 22:11:41 The pop song. 22:11:52 Vorpal: Yes. But not the mirror universe one. 22:11:54 don't think I watched any of the mirror universe 22:12:00 Only two episodes. 22:12:04 alise, will download once I finished watching TNG intro 22:12:06 No overlapping, either, just one ship. 22:12:07 alise: The last season was about where it became watchable. 22:12:16 The whole two-parter took place in the mirror universe. 22:12:29 gah: 22:12:32 And it didn't end with a revolution. 22:12:34 [download] 1.5% of 23.01M at 29.61k/s ETA 13:03 22:12:35 Yes, it got canceled just as it improved. 22:12:41 alise, I will watch. In a while 22:12:52 Vorpal: might want to watch both to see the contrst 22:12:53 *contrast 22:12:56 The normal theme was still god-awful. 22:13:02 alise, well yes, but look at the dl speed 22:13:03 they replaced all the historical exploration scenes with warfare :) 22:13:11 alise, it seems that HD download slower than smaller ones 22:13:21 the TNG one was original-size youtube 22:13:28 I loved the scene of Cochrane shooting the Vulcan. Nice teaser. 22:13:30 Downloaded at 200 kB/s 22:13:53 pikhq: It tried a bit too hard to be retro. 22:14:04 Prime directive? Never heard of it. 22:14:17 Stardate? Naw, let's just use Earth years. Because only FEDERATIONS make space-wise decisions! 22:14:32 alise: Star Trek TOS did not need a prequel. It really didn't. 22:14:41 It needed a sequel that completely forgot about Voyager. 22:14:43 :P 22:14:47 Yes; I dislike the idea of an Enterprise-pre-Enterprise. 22:15:03 pikhq: I'd like to see a sequel set a long time after Voyager. 22:15:20 It'll require less anal clinching to canon. 22:15:33 alise: That would be quite nice. 22:15:51 I'd just like a sequel that is written well. 22:16:09 pikhq: The most WTF part of Voyager canon is that it ends with the Borg no longer being much of a threat 22:16:12 Why the hell would you do that??? 22:16:13 alise, the non-mirror one downloaded fast 22:16:14 sigh 22:16:20 You could freaking make it be about Wesley's adventures if it were written reasonably. :P 22:16:22 They are the best enemy ever. 22:16:41 (note: to make it written well would require some retconning. Because SHUT UP WESLEY!) 22:17:18 pikhq: He graduated Starfleet and grew the fuck up. 22:17:27 Borg? Hey yeah, we have one of them on our CREW. 22:17:31 Tell me one reason not to do this. 22:17:34 Ohhhhhh Voyager. 22:17:37 alise: I cannot. 22:17:38 cpressey: I was referring to the finale. 22:17:44 alise: I don't care. 22:17:46 In which future Janeway says "Ha, actually, I have this magic that defeats the Borg". 22:17:51 And gives them it. 22:17:54 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:17:55 Fuck Janeway. 22:17:59 FUCK JANEWAY. 22:18:00 alise: I only care that it ENDED. 22:18:04 FUCK THE FUCKING HELL OF JANEWAY FUCK. 22:18:04 wait what? 22:18:10 Vorpal: VOYAGER IS FUCKING SHIT. 22:18:14 Janeway wasn't the worst of Voyager 22:18:19 ?? 22:18:21 Vorpal: Indeed, she wasn't. 22:18:22 I mean, there were far worse parts of it 22:18:25 All characters were the worst characters in Voyager 22:18:27 She was the worst character 22:18:28 Vorpal: But: Fuck. Janeway. 22:18:32 cpressey: no 22:18:33 cpressey: The Doctor 22:18:40 alise: Nelix. 22:18:41 was the only sane man on the ship 22:18:54 pikhq: Neelix didn't control the direction of the entire ship and its crew. 22:18:58 OK, maybe the doctor was not entirely void as a character. 22:18:58 alise, wait a second? Didn't he almost destroy the ship once? 22:19:00 Or do anything at all, actually. 22:19:02 after being taken over? 22:19:06 Vorpal: The Doctor? 22:19:08 alise, yes 22:19:10 alise: He tried very hard to be the Wesley. 22:19:12 *maybe* 22:19:14 Uh, don't know. 22:19:22 Granted, he failed because he *sucks*, but hey! 22:19:32 pikhq: Robert Picardo, the Doctor, actually initially auditioned for Neelix; can you believe that? 22:19:49 alise: You know waaaay too much about this awful show. 22:19:52 "I have cooked up a WONDERFUL soup that -- -- will hopefully make you shut up." 22:19:54 alise: You're fucking kidding. 22:19:58 cpressey: I watch it for amusement. 22:20:07 cpressey: Like MST3K, but I get to come up with the narration myself. 22:20:10 pikhq: Nope. 22:20:16 cpressey: It's often in so-bad-it's-good territory. 22:20:29 Which is... All the merit it has for much of its run. 22:20:52 (there's a handful of actually decent-to-good episodes that somehow managed to sneak in) 22:20:56 At least it's not so boring that I couldn't watch it, like -- some of those other shows. 22:21:07 alise, wow that mirror universe music was *AWESOME* 22:21:08 cpressey: I've actually grown on Deep Space 9. 22:21:08 But is awful > boring? Dunno, really. 22:21:11 alise, just pure awesome 22:21:24 alise: DS9 was not half as bad 22:21:27 Vorpal: I liked the fade of the title to black at the beginning. It's the little things... 22:21:32 cpressey: I mean wrt boringness. 22:21:37 Vorpal: The mirror universe episode there was actually genuinely good. 22:21:39 AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH 22:21:44 pikhq, right 22:21:46 pikhq: No goatees! 22:21:46 Stop talking about Star Trek! 22:21:53 Just a bunch of people being assholes to each other, and then it ends! 22:21:54 Can we at least discuss LITERATURE? 22:21:54 pikhq, haven't watched them 22:21:55 alise: I don't know if it was boring so much as.. slow. 22:22:09 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, at least we're not discussing favorite captains. 22:22:13 Phantom_Hoover: OVID'S METAMORPHOSES. READ IT? 22:22:14 Voyager, "Blood Fever" review: Everyone gets pon farr. Everyone tries to have sex with each other! 22:22:15 STOP 22:22:19 cpressey, A BIT 22:22:23 Phantom_Hoover, you mean Star Trek: The Complete Movie Scripts? 22:22:23 IN LATIN, AS WELL 22:22:26 pikhq: There's a competition? 22:22:32 Phantom_Hoover: I'M ABOUT 1/3 THE WAY THROUGH 22:22:33 (I wonder, does that exist?) 22:22:36 (it probably does) 22:22:37 alise: There's some debate, yes. 22:22:39 NOT LATIN THOUGH 22:22:40 pikhq: Picard. I can see an argument for Sisko, but he wasn't really a captain. 22:22:52 pikhq: Kirk was brash and ... not as intelligent as Picard. Janewahahahahaha 22:23:02 alise: Some people actually like Kirk. They must love cheese. 22:23:02 alise, hm I have the say TNG is my favourite 22:23:04 Archer was... uh... I can't think of anything to say 22:23:30 cpressey, YOU'RE SO UNCULTURED 22:23:50 pikhq: One bad thing about "In a Mirror, Darkly" was a bit of a continuity error. 22:24:13 It mentions a speech by Cochrane talking about the future Borg and future crew battling before he made the warp flight in a speech. 22:24:14 Could not find module `Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec' 22:24:19 cpressey: Text.Parsec 22:24:20 well, forget Parsec anyway 22:24:23 alise: In a series that played with time travel to the point that it may have ceased to have happened, that is *not* a big deal. 22:24:24 cpressey: for v3 22:24:27 pikhq: But, 22:24:31 they gotta go and move everything huh 22:24:39 pikhq: How come the crew of First Contact didn't know about this? 22:24:46 And realise? 22:24:54 pikhq: YOU CAN say that this is because of the alternate universe. 22:25:00 But why, when it's identical in every other way apart from evil? 22:25:04 Could not find module `Text.Parsec' 22:25:06 Did I happen to mention that Enterprise may have wiped itself from existence? 22:25:06 Wait... 22:25:11 That wasn't "In a Mirror, Darkly". 22:25:18 That was "Regeneration", which I watched the same day (oops). 22:25:24 So they have no alternate universe excuse. 22:25:26 alise: In a series that played with time travel to the point that it may have ceased to have happened, that is *not* a big deal. <-- actually I find that was one of the few good parts of that series 22:25:33 well, forget Parsec anyway 22:25:34 I love time travel 22:25:39 though, could have been done better 22:25:48 still, any time travel is better than no time travel ;) 22:25:56 We need more Q. 22:25:59 Any future series must have Q. 22:26:06 Preferably Q and the Borg at the same time. 22:26:09 And Picard. 22:26:11 alise: rm -rf Voyager && yes 22:26:12 Godlike superbeings FtW! 22:26:16 alise, oh god no 22:26:28 alise, still not read the Culture books? 22:26:30 alise, Q was an annoying arrogant bastard 22:26:32 Let's just make an episode that is Picard and Q and the Borg destroying Voyager, over and over again, and they do it so many times that it actually disappears from the timestream forever. 22:26:36 Vorpal: ... that's ... the point ... 22:26:54 alise, yes and it doesn't work out too well 22:27:00 Yes it did. 22:27:10 well I disagree there 22:27:10 Vorpal: It worked brilliantly in TNG. 22:27:19 pikhq, yes, the first 3 or 4 times 22:27:26 pikhq, then *yawn* 22:27:29 "All Good Things..." <3 22:27:30 Vorpal: It was solidly meh in DS9, and SUCKED MAJOR ASS in Voyager... 22:27:44 Vorpal: Dude, there were only 8 Q episodes in TNG. 22:27:47 There were 8 seasons. 22:27:59 alise, yes. And? 22:28:06 4 < 8 22:28:17 Vorpal: "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things..." are the same story. 22:28:21 Can't avoid involving Q in the conclusion. 22:28:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 22:28:27 So that's 7 Q stories now. 22:28:38 4 < 7 still 22:28:41 "Hide and Q" was first season, so we can pretend it never existed. 6 Q stories. 22:28:50 alise, wait what 22:28:52 " "Hide and Q" was first season, so we can pretend it never existed. 6 Q stories." 22:28:54 how does that work 22:28:59 Vorpal: the first season was awful 22:29:07 Vorpal: First season sucked and Riker didn't have a beard. 22:29:10 it introduced Wesley-as-God (by mistake), had beardless Riker, and hackneyed plots. 22:29:11 Ignoring awful things, how does THAT work? 22:29:15 alise, okay and 4 < 6 still 22:29:36 alise: Don't forget the keychain-sized phasers. 22:29:48 (How do you *aim* that thing?) 22:29:51 Vorpal: Well, "Q Who" is good because it introduces the Borg and is an awesome episode. 1 good story. "Deja Q" has mortal Q. Good. 22:30:07 "Qpid" ... eh. Meh. Not included. 22:30:18 alise, why did you not include Qpid? 22:30:26 Because it's not good. I'm counting good ones to prove it's > 4. 22:30:30 ...anyway, point is, almost all Q stories in TNG were good. 22:30:35 And besides, there were only 8. 22:30:39 -!- olsner has joined. 22:30:43 cpressey, hm? how do you aim a laser pointer of keychain size? Such exists for presentation stuff iirc 22:30:44 <3 Q 22:31:11 alise, the mortal Q one was good, I agree 22:31:27 I'm going to deliberately induce suffering by watching SGI.. actually, maybe I'll watch Deja Q 22:31:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:31:42 I think I've seen it before 22:31:53 Watch "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things..." back to back. Bet it makes perfect sense. 22:32:18 alise, how many bluray discs do you need to fit all of TOS I wonder 22:32:23 Vorpal: I don't know. I've never had to mortally wound a whiteboard. 22:32:25 "Encounter at Farpoint" is kinda wince-inducing when Q isn't on-screen. 22:32:29 Vorpal: Um. 22:32:30 Three. 22:32:34 At the MOST. 22:32:35 cpressey, XD 22:32:38 Well. 22:32:39 Maybe more. 22:32:45 SGU has half a season on a Blu-Ray. 22:32:47 alise, really? 22:32:48 So six, at the most. 22:32:54 That much quality would be pointless for the shabby source material. 22:32:55 alise, what quality? 22:32:56 So three. 22:33:00 Vorpal: SGU? 1080p. 22:33:05 hm 22:33:09 SGU being? 22:33:09 Ultra quality HD etc. new modern show etc. 22:33:10 alise, I assume that you haven't, then. 22:33:12 Stargate Universe. 22:33:16 ah 22:33:18 Phantom_Hoover_: ? 22:33:25 Read the Culture novels. 22:33:36 No. 22:33:40 I like SGU 22:33:43 WHAT WE ARE ALL NEGLECTING HERE 22:33:46 alise, bah 22:33:50 alise, well, 1080p... http://xkcd.com/732/ 22:33:54 IS STAR TREK NEW VOYAGES PHASE II 22:33:54 alise: DOT ACTION SUPER PANIC ? 22:33:56 Vorpal: A Blu-ray disc gets you 50GB. Which is significantly higher than you need for very good quality 1080p video. 22:34:03 Vorpal, stupid. 22:34:04 pikhq, hm okay. 22:34:10 Vorpal: xkcd, stupid 22:34:19 I like xkcd 22:34:19 alise, why is that *specific* xkcd stupid 22:34:20 also, 1080p is damn good quality 22:34:22 "TV" and "monitor" are both very different things. 22:34:22 So you either get stupid high-quality movies or quite a lot on a disc. 22:34:26 so it's not new 22:34:26 zomg 22:34:27 I tend to read both xkcd and xkcdsucks though 22:34:31 alise, I watch movies on computer, not on a TV 22:34:32 Should I break my vow to never read xkcd? 22:34:33 xkcdsucks sucks a lot nowadays too 22:34:37 Carl is just going through the motions 22:34:38 cpressey: no 22:34:38 And your average monitor isn't a metre tall. 22:34:46 pikhq: anyway 22:34:53 pikhq: STAR TREK NEW VOYAGES: PHASE II 22:34:54 DISCUSS 22:35:00 alise: Thankfully I overcame the urge. 22:35:06 I couldn't even make myself watch more than a few minutes of World Enough and Time. 22:35:10 The glittersuit did it. 22:35:11 Phantom_Hoover_, true. So it has way lower DPI too 22:35:15 He literally wore a suit with glitter all over it. 22:35:23 Vorpal: You sit way, way away from it. 22:35:29 xkcd wasn't dissing HDTVs, anyway, just their impressiveness. 22:35:35 He's saying "HDTVs are good but they are not anything impressive". 22:35:39 alise, which is also silly IMO 22:35:46 alise, indeed 22:35:54 Vorpal is stupid and has no idea why TVs are good 22:35:57 Moving on, 22:36:11 alise, I find it nicer to watch on my desktop monitor 22:36:40 could get a TV tuner card if I needed that 22:36:57 Television is bad. Televisions are good. 22:36:59 Vorpal, ugh. 22:37:08 Phantom_Hoover_, hm? 22:38:35 Phantom_Hoover_, why did you say "ugh" while highlighting me? 22:38:37 pikhq: Proposal: Star Trek fan sequel series starring people who aren't unwashed Trekkies and with actual production values. 22:38:48 Such as Vulcans that aren't obviously wearing velcro. 22:38:54 alise: Problem: getting people involved. 22:39:05 alise, velcro? 22:39:06 alise: Also: to be fair, New Voyages is following after TOS. 22:39:13 It's got about the same level of production values. 22:39:14 Phantom_Hoover_, I hardly ever watch TV. when I watch DVDs I do it on my computer. Which has a nice monitor and nice sound. 22:39:17 pikhq: I'll play Wesley, who, although he has graduated, has a rare genetic condition that means he still looks 12. 22:39:20 Just like me! 22:39:25 The looking 12 part, that is. 22:39:28 Phantom_Hoover_, now I'm wondering what the fuck you meant with " Vorpal, ugh." 22:39:31 Also, he has actually shrunk. 22:39:47 Maybe we should just do a Galaxy Quest series. 22:39:49 alise: How's about we just get Wil Wheaton. 22:39:58 pikhq: He'd want money. 22:40:07 alise: You don't *know* that. 22:40:07 Also, he looks like Riker now. 22:40:22 pikhq: !! Wil could play Riker. 22:40:26 Frakes is way too old-looking now. 22:40:47 I'm assuming this has just turned into "Star Trek: The Next Generation: The Next Generation". 22:40:49 Phantom_Hoover_, okay. I guess you just said that to troll then, if you aren't going to explain what the fuck you meant with it 22:41:06 TROLLING BY SILENCE 22:41:20 yes indeed 22:41:51 pikhq: So, starring WIL WHEATON as COMMANDER WILLIAM T. RIKER. 22:42:09 sudo apt-get install libghc6-parsec-dev 22:42:12 that was what was wrong. 22:42:24 pikhq: Presumably this is set on the Enterprise-E. 22:42:29 oh? maybe you meant that tv tuner card have traditionally been shoddy with buggy drivers? Well, there are good ones. I know some people who are using such under linux with good results. 22:42:43 there are of course still bad tv tuners, but you just have to avoid them 22:42:55 I will get zzo38 to write me a driver for my card 22:42:59 like you had to avoid ATI graphics a few years ago (that changed quite a bit now though!) 22:43:08 pikhq: We need Patrick Stewart... 22:43:14 I would just have zzo38 reinvent the computer. 22:43:59 pikhq: Fuck it, we can't possibly play the TNG crew. 22:44:07 pikhq: It's set on the Enterprise-K. 22:44:09 alise, there's a picture of David Tennant as Hamlet about to stab Patrick Stewart. 22:44:15 Create a caption. 22:44:17 alise, why not pick the best characters from each generation? Spock, Picard, Riker, Data, and so on? 22:44:20 Phantom_Hoover_: I loved that performance. 22:44:28 Vorpal: Because we are Trekkies, and we fucking care about canon. 22:44:36 alise, oh 22:44:41 Besides, Spock/Picard would delight the slashers. 22:44:43 alise, ah I know how to solve it 22:44:48 Vorpal: No. 22:44:49 No time travel. 22:44:50 alise, we take the time travel from ENT 22:44:55 alise, argh you were too fast 22:45:00 ENT had no time travel 22:45:01 Cryonics! 22:45:02 well 22:45:05 it did, probably 22:45:12 but what do you mean 22:45:13 it's science fiction, you can contrive a reason 22:45:18 it was a prequel, not a time travel 22:45:24 everyone else just forgot to mention Archer and his ship 22:45:28 how convenient 22:45:35 alise, ENT had *lots* of time travel iirc? 22:45:38 probably 22:45:42 brb 22:45:46 have all the characters resurrected via some alien technology 22:45:51 ais523, that works too 22:45:53 and set it in the far future 22:46:00 so they've all had a chance to be dead 22:46:02 ais523, even further than the rest? 22:46:10 yes 22:46:10 right 22:46:15 far future wrt Star Trek canon 22:46:30 ais523: the year 3000, let's say! 22:46:33 um 22:46:36 and we could have someone frozen in 1999 22:46:41 who gets revi-- 22:46:43 FUTURAMA 22:46:43 wait 22:46:46 [opening titles play] 22:46:49 alise, ARGH YOU BEAT ME TO IT! 22:47:15 alise, I think someone from 3100 or such visited Archer in ENT? 22:47:19 This episode brought to you by blatant trademark violation! 22:47:44 Now tubular bells are stuck in my head! 22:48:57 cpressey, which ones are tubular bells? 22:49:15 * cpressey hands Vorpal a link to Wikipedia 22:49:59 pikhq: :-D 22:50:00 cpressey, why are they stuck in your head? Accident while practising playing? 22:50:02 pikhq: wat? 22:50:24 cpressey: Dum dum dumdum dum dum dum dum da da dada dum dum dumdum... 22:50:25 Vorpal: Futurama theme 22:50:33 cpressey, oh, it uses those? 22:50:33 Now "Tubular Bells" is stuck in my head! 22:51:03 alise: Thankfully I don't know that one. Only heard of it. 22:51:18 cpressey: I've listened to the whole thing. It's alright. 22:51:19 For some reason, I think it must be like "Classical Gas". 22:51:28 Turkish Star Wars has a sequel. 22:51:30 :O 22:52:41 cpressey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4eZJh3FFg0 an excerpt of its beginning 22:52:51 It's not anything amazing or anything, but. 22:52:58 It sure changes a lot. 22:53:16 alise: No flash. 22:53:21 I could fix that, but 22:53:29 It would involve EFFORT. 22:53:42 I can't seem to put out a lot of that right now. 22:54:05 IRC is quite distracting. 22:54:21 And also, there are too many things I could be doing, so I can't decide. 22:54:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has joined. 22:54:56 Parsec is a wash. I... just can't get into it. 22:55:22 It's aight. 22:55:38 Well, at least I have it *installed*. 22:55:48 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:56:21 It kind of bugs me that it doesn't come with a lexer 22:57:12 alise: Why does Neko suck? 22:57:15 I know nothing about it. 22:57:19 Virtually. 22:57:22 Uhh, things 22:57:29 It's just not ... interesting ... good ... uh 22:57:32 * cpressey nods knowlingly 22:57:35 OK 22:58:11 cpressey, just listened to some tubular bells on youtube, and yeah catchy 22:58:26 sebbu[laptop]: I just wrote a line on IRC to someone random. 22:58:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:58:58 cpressey, but futurama theme is a lot more than just that. Lots synthed music too I think 22:59:08 brb 22:59:27 Vorpal: Huh 22:59:34 I thought it was one long tubular bells solo 23:00:11 Argh, now I have TB stuck in my head. 23:02:07 cpressey, um? Are there different variants? 23:02:16 cpressey, the ones I found on youtube was definitely not solos 23:05:32 cpressey, I can't find any that is a solo 23:06:21 cpressey, definitely synthed music, tubular bells, and some other percussion, possibly also some non-overdriven electrical guitar, though not completely sure about that 23:10:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:10:50 Vorpal: The best TV themes are always instrumental solos 23:11:39 * cpressey struggles through this Parsec thing 23:11:45 cpressey, hm..... 23:11:53 cpressey, not sure I agree 23:12:24 instrumental: yes in general, though voice that isn't singing can be used to some great effect 23:12:31 like in the mirror universe theme for ENT 23:12:35 which is indeed pure awesome 23:13:01 solos? No I don't think I agree 23:13:46 "Murder, She Wrote", "MacGyver", "The Beachcombers" 23:14:10 never watched the first or the last ones 23:15:02 cpressey, which season for the middle one? Was years since I watched MacGyver. And google indicates different theme music for the different seasons 23:15:02 -!- Brandie has joined. 23:15:02 Spamming is fun! Brought to you by FreeNode. /join #freenode 23:15:02 -!- Brandie has left (?). 23:15:10 wut 23:15:17 that was absurd 23:15:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:16:01 pikhq, most absurd spam ever in logs while you were offline 23:16:58 -!- Sebbie has joined. 23:16:58 Spamming is fun! Brought to you by FreeNode. /join #freenode 23:16:58 -!- Sebbie has left (?). 23:17:02 .. 23:18:13 Strange indeed. 23:18:31 * Phantom_Hoover__ decides to launch an expedition. fungot, are you coming? 23:18:32 Phantom_Hoover__: robert hart, night watchman at rhodes, declares it was mixed with a sort of palimpsest formed after the obliteration of a previous design. in nature it was wholly fnord by the sculptured walls along our route. only when we had passed outside the radius of the campfire. then i half fancied i heard a new sound: common, yet unlike any i had ever looked 23:19:16 -!- aklis has joined. 23:19:23 -!- aklis has left (?). 23:19:58 aklis: You forgot to tell us about teh FREENOED 23:20:19 ^style 23:20:20 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 23:20:31 ^style fisher 23:20:31 Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations) 23:20:40 cpressey, no that was some random person joining due to me mentioning this spam to a staffer in #freenode. happened to mention channel name 23:20:57 and that person was also complaining about the same spam in another channel I think 23:22:15 cpressey, um I can only find non-solo theme music for MacGyver when googling 23:22:22 cpressey, so got a link to the solo version? 23:23:39 cpressey, actually there seems to be some guy who recorded a solo arrangement on guitar, but it seems definitely non-official 23:23:42 given that #freenode is the channel where you report spam, why would a spammer refer you to it? 23:23:44 so yeah a link would be nice 23:24:12 Vorpal, this was your fault? 23:24:19 Phantom_Hoover__, no? Just that last guy 23:24:25 Phantom_Hoover__, who didn't spam 23:24:26 ... 23:29:46 OK, so Parsec is maybe livable if you build off the supplied combinators. 23:29:59 sepBy, for e.g. 23:31:19 Phantom_Hoover__, you don't want to do that in #freenode 23:31:21 Wait, cpressey dislikes Parsec? 23:31:29 :) 23:31:34 Phantom_Hoover__, continue and chances are you will be klined 23:31:37 Phantom_Hoover__, seriously 23:31:45 klined? 23:31:49 Phantom_Hoover__, yes 23:31:52 banned from network 23:32:00 Ouch. 23:32:02 Spoilsports. 23:32:11 Phantom_Hoover__, basically it is a non-joky channel 23:32:27 Why isn't Deja Q in fiveminute.net ? 23:32:47 Sgeo, what is "fiveminute.net" to begin with 23:32:51 hmm, I've almost got the DJGPP build of C-INTERCAL working again 23:33:05 Sgeo, is it something owned by someone in here? If not, why are you asking here 23:33:28 Because several people here are fans of fiveminute.net 23:33:30 Phantom_Hoover__, and seriously go learn about IRC. I think kline was even in the original irc 23:33:36 Phantom_Hoover__, irc rfc* 23:33:49 Sgeo, I nave no idea what it is even 23:34:11 * Sgeo wonders if Vorpal is lacking a web browser 23:34:27 Sgeo, I fail to see why I should open it for this 23:34:28 Grah, I think I'm turning into alise 23:34:54 It's a site with 5-minute satires of various Star Trek (and a few other series) episodes 23:35:01 I see 23:35:18 Sgeo: I'm working through my differences with Parsec right now 23:35:29 Sgeo, any good 23:35:29 ? 23:35:46 Vorpal, many of them 23:35:59 The one for Stargate SG-1's "2010" is junk though 23:35:59 Sgeo, oh, it is not videos? It is transcripts? 23:36:02 Yeah 23:36:15 Sgeo, how can it be 5-minute satires then? 23:36:21 wouldn't it depend on reading speed 23:36:24 ais523: Yes! DJGPP rocking goodness! 23:36:27 *shrug*, it's just the name 23:37:06 Yar: And stranded the two of them on a remote planet? Does this mean Q's reality series is Queer Eye for the Bearded Guy now? 23:37:06 Worf: Commander Riker does not have a beard. 23:37:06 Yar: Yeah, but who knows if I'll get a shot at making that joke later. 23:38:19 -!- Hiant has joined. 23:40:19 -!- Hiant has quit (Client Quit). 23:41:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:42:10 hmm, I've almost got the DJGPP build of C-INTERCAL working again <-- does that mean you had to break filenames again? 23:42:33 I don't think so 23:42:37 phew 23:42:39 but I haven't found out yet 23:43:29 ais523, I seem to remember that the Mac/PPC port had some longer filenames, that had to be that way 23:43:34 not 100% sure though 23:43:48 that is MacOS Classic/PPC 23:44:52 !haskell let i = 1 + 2 in i 23:45:12 3 23:45:25 !haskell let i = read "123" 23:46:03 !haskell let i :: Integer = read "123" 23:46:21 No, there's some other syntax for that isn't there 23:46:27 ais523, did you integrate the patches from my port? 23:46:43 no, I didn't 23:47:01 aren't they rather system-specific? 23:47:03 !haskell let (i :: Integer) = read "123" in i 23:47:05 ais523, some of those fixed generic problems that were hidden due to gcc accepting non-strictly conforming programs 23:47:11 :( 23:47:19 ais523, see the docs included with the patches 23:47:24 hmm, I'll try to see which are portability patches and maybe apply them 23:47:58 ais523, and the path generation fix is generic but only matters on platforms where adding an extra path separator char isn't harmless 23:48:01 such as classic mac OS 23:48:08 where it is definitely non-harmless 23:48:09 !haskell let i = ((read "123") :: Integer) in i 23:48:10 123 23:48:13 :) 23:48:35 ais523, since there could be other such platforms you should probably apply that fix 23:49:25 oh, I agree with portability fixing 23:49:37 ais523, and one fix for the *.l files was needed for any platforms lacking unistd.h 23:49:45 My patch is in AceHack! 23:49:47 * Sgeo happies 23:49:58 ais523, which flex didn't properly check for 23:50:01 Sgeo: it is; when did you find out, and how? 23:50:12 ais523, you mentioned it in #nethack I think 23:50:18 Either that, or you were adding it 23:50:19 yes, but ages ago 23:50:26 and I assumed you'd have noticed earlier 23:50:26 ais523, very few of those patches are system specific. It is just that it happens to work on most other platforms :P 23:50:32 if you noticed at all 23:50:49 Well, we were talking about AceHack now 23:50:49 ais523, the system specific stuff is in the ppc subdir and in perpet.c, and iirc not everything for perpet.c was system specific 23:52:50 ais523, bbl, if you have any question about the patches I'm probably back in about 20 minutes or so. Maybe a bit more 23:53:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:54:32 -!- comjex has changed nick to comex. 23:59:41 http://pastie.org/1138648 23:59:59 I think it is, because I think you can encode SMETANA in it, but my brain isn't really working <-- SMETANA isn't TC 2010-09-05: 00:00:14 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:00:22 oerjan: D'oh 00:00:23 not with finite starting setup 00:00:44 I assumed ByteByteJump isn't with fiite starting setup either. 00:00:45 s/setup/program/ 00:00:56 maybe 00:01:02 I meant "infinite SMETANA" 00:01:04 I guess 00:01:33 Oh btw, that P != NP proof was debunked, wasn't it? 00:02:12 infinite SMETANA needs a "pattern" in the initial infinite program though, I think (like e.g. Wireworld does), but BBJ might not, it might work with it "all zeroes" 00:02:18 more or less, the author seems unable to admit it though 00:02:46 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 00:03:10 last i heard he _still_ claimed to be intending to send a repaired proof for publication. but no longer to publish it on the web beforehand :D 00:03:39 (it wasn't intended to reach the web initially, though) 00:04:30 i haven't looked much at bytebytejump 00:05:55 what is more dubious is that he now claimed to send it just to select experts again - but this did _not_ include the people that had been finding flaws 00:06:01 *even more dubious 00:06:35 (most importantly terence tao, who said he had not received a copy) 00:06:46 -!- cpressey has changed nick to Dubious. 00:07:37 i guess at this point everyone expects it to just fizzle out and be forgotten 00:07:39 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:09:23 incidentally there was a proof that P=NP from an indian professor in recent days 00:09:53 it doesn't seem to be taken very seriously though 00:10:36 Is there a name for the class of problems that get more convenient to solve if the halting problem were solved 00:10:43 Note "convenient". As in, not necessary 00:10:51 Sgeo: Pi_1 and Sigma_1 00:11:02 oh hm 00:11:17 -!- sebbu[laptop] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:11:20 Although necessary is also interesting 00:12:11 Sgeo: You might have to define "convenient" more formally 00:12:21 i cannot recall anything about non-necessary 00:13:04 It's pretty bizarre to think of things like, "If I have an oracle for HP I can sort a list in O(log n) time!" 00:13:12 Sgeo: the halting problem _already_ assumes you have unlimited resources to start with, so defining "convenient" seems difficult. 00:14:07 Dubious: now that _is_ dubious, you would need to load the data onto the oracle tape after all 00:14:45 although given that, it _would_ seem like an HP oracle could solve everything computable in O(n) time 00:15:30 (just load the fixed program which halts iff your computation accepts, plus its data) 00:16:40 that's [everything computable] in O(n) time btw, not everything [computable in O(n) time] 00:19:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:20:17 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:31:14 Grah, I think I'm turning into alise ;; why? 00:31:32 Instead of telling him what he wanted to know, I just acted rudely 00:31:47 It occurs to me that saying that may also be rude :/ 00:32:02 "Murder, She Wrote", "MacGyver", "The Beachcombers" ;; I hate Murder, She Wrote so much. 00:34:34 -!- comex has changed nick to PermanentRebel. 00:34:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOWWUdMAfSY 00:34:53 My patch is in AceHack! 00:34:54 * Sgeo happies 00:34:55 which patch? 00:35:11 alise, the one that allows candles to be attached to the candelabrum underwater 00:35:42 alise: "The Scarecrow and Mrs. King". 00:36:34 Sgeo, why can't you do that normally? 00:36:39 Sgeo: I don't mind people saying they're like me :P 00:36:40 Dubious: ? 00:36:49 Sgeo: I only do that to AnMaster, though. 00:36:49 Sgeo, I can't say I ever tried in nethack though 00:36:56 Vorpal, because it thinks that you're trying to light a candle 00:37:01 Sgeo, ah 00:37:02 And won't let you 00:37:28 zzo... darnit 00:37:31 Sgeo, should report a bug to the nethack theme too? Unless that has already been done 00:37:42 Vorpal, yeah, reported a while ago 00:38:05 Took them time to receive it, and they never checked if the patch is still up, so they made their own, probably more elegant, fix 00:38:54 Sgeo: NetHack dev team, elegant code. 00:38:55 Hahahaha! 00:39:38 alise, indeed, Highly elegant. Compared to some of the code on tdwtf that is. 00:40:19 alise: "Moonlighting". 00:40:40 -!- PermanentRebel has changed nick to comex. 00:40:47 Hm, 80's TV shows may not be the best cultural common ground for a 15-year-old in Britain. 00:40:54 *American TV shows 00:40:58 comex, not so permanent then? 00:41:06 Oh, Dubious is cpressey. 00:41:11 Dubious: I had no idea of your context. 00:41:13 Vorpal: No, I'm still a Rebel (in Agora). Just not in IRC. 00:41:14 ;o 00:41:22 coppro, or perhaps you rebelled against being a permanent one? 00:41:27 COntext?! Pfah! btw I'm getting used to Parsec. 00:41:29 He rebels against APPLE with his BOMBS 00:41:42 I think this is actually how jailbreaking works; exactly like civil war 00:41:45 Please confirm/deny, comex 00:41:52 Dubious: Anyway, I hate Murder, She Wrote so, so much. 00:41:58 *"Murder, She Wrote" 00:42:08 alise, which genre? 00:42:21 Vorpal: You know those silly light crime programs of the 80s? 00:42:23 Diagnosis Murder and the like. 00:42:28 oh 00:42:32 It's just like that, except the main character is a semi-old woman. 00:42:35 Who attracts DEATH. EVERYWHERE 00:42:42 Vorpal: typo? 00:42:42 alise, like Miss Maple? 00:42:50 coppro, ? 00:42:57 Vorpal: Much worse. 00:43:00 *marple 00:43:09 (Probably.) 00:43:12 Corpal: you pinged me 00:43:12 ah 00:43:16 alise, the Miss Marple *books* are actually good 00:43:42 alise, a bit repetitive after a while though 00:43:56 Agatha Christie can't hold a candle to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle 00:44:28 Dubious, while that is true, that doesn't mean Agatha Christie is *bad*. Just not nearly as good. 00:44:46 www.js1k.com may interest you people, if you don't know about it 00:44:58 Hi, by the way 00:45:25 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 00:45:31 Oh, hello, oerjan 00:45:34 HI 00:45:57 Is anyone actually playing Dot Action 2 currently? 00:49:59 No 00:50:35 Bah. 00:50:38 I've got to 60. 00:50:41 fizzie: Do you remember how to do 60? 00:52:17 wow, sed is slow on DOSBox 00:52:30 well, everything is (rm is actually slow enough that you can see it execute) 00:52:33 but sed in particular 00:53:19 ais523: what version? 00:53:19 of sed 00:53:20 that is 00:53:20 port 00:53:24 djgpdgdjgpjgpgjpdgjdpgpp? 00:53:47 alise: yep, djgpp 00:55:04 ais523: you can run Windows 3.1 on it. Try that :P 00:55:19 don't have a spare win3.1 license 00:55:52 XD 00:56:16 ais523: nor does anyone else who does it... 00:56:35 ais523: besides, you can't buy them any more 00:56:42 http://pastie.org/1138727 <-- Why this not work? 00:57:11 Why my fail not tell endBy1 stop? 00:59:05 Dubious: Please call yourself cpressey and what have you done to my browser. 00:59:10 :( 00:59:13 -!- Dubious has changed nick to cpressey. 00:59:24 I ATE YOUR BROWSER, LITTLE MAN 00:59:45 * cpressey is apparently some kind of dragon creature 01:00:13 cpressey: http://imgur.com/zZyIH.png 01:00:14 Seriously dude 01:00:15 I bet I have to use 'try' or 'choice' 01:00:15 Not cool 01:00:37 Cooooool 01:01:21 Why my fail not tell endBy1 stop? 01:01:23 wat 01:01:38 Well, fail will fail the whole parse, I think 01:01:40 as a syntax error 01:01:43 rather than ending endBy1 01:01:54 I'd tell you to use Parsec 3, but *eh* 01:01:57 Oh wait Parsec does come with a lexer! 01:02:00 cpressey: What is this language? 01:02:03 Also, yes, it does. 01:02:06 Not the most general one, but yes. 01:02:26 My kitchen, if it were a restaurant's kitchen, would be closed downj 01:02:43 alise: This is just an example, as was the previous one I pastied. 01:03:01 Sort-of kind-of parts of the PL-{GOTO} language. 01:03:07 PL-{GOTO}? 01:03:18 Sgeo: DETTOL PROTECTS FACT 01:03:28 alise: I guess my question is, how does endBy1 know when to end, if not from a fail (I thought it would catch it and stop)? 01:03:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:03:57 I'll tell you by quoting the source, which will be a bitch because you're being poopy and using Parsec 2. 01:03:58 PL-{GOTO} is the language of for loops, basically (it's in a computation theory text by Brainerd & Weber) 01:03:58 Unless... 01:04:02 Does import Text.Parsec work? 01:04:13 If so, you're using Parsec 3, which is probably good. 01:04:20 DETTOL? 01:04:21 It does not. I'm using whatever Ubuntu decides to give me. Give it to me, Ubuntu! 01:04:28 Do you have cabal? 01:04:41 Cabal makes me sick. But, I can check. 01:04:54 bash: cabal: command not found 01:05:11 cpressey: in any case you need try if you want anything to recover from a fail that consumes characters 01:06:53 cpressey: It appears that Parsec has automatic support for indentation-based parsing. 01:06:57 Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.IndentParser 01:06:59 As part of the tokeniser. 01:07:06 oh, no 01:07:08 that's another thing 01:07:11 another package 01:07:20 http://bobby-tables.com/ 01:07:20 cabal install IndentParser --constraint="parsec >= 3" 01:07:33 cpressey: if you remove the ubuntu package, install cabal-install (search your package manager) 01:07:36 then you can do 01:07:40 cabal install parsec==3 01:07:55 oh, apparently IndentParser doesn't actually work with parsec 3 01:07:57 okay then 01:08:05 `apt-cache search cabal-install` == '' 01:08:05 although there appears to be replacement code 01:08:09 whatever 01:08:15 cpressey: apt-cache search cabal 01:09:03 `apt-cache search cabal` == ghc6, ghc6-doc, ghc6-prof, haskell-devscripts, libhugs-cabal-bundled 01:09:05 [[The beta-Juliet language is not Turing-Complete by itself. Nor is the Portia pre-processor. However, when used together, the intent is that they form a Turing-Complete language.]] ;; DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE 01:09:09 No output. 01:09:13 Oh, and fortunes-fr 01:09:19 (So say people who don't believe in ais523's proof.) 01:09:25 No output. 01:09:32 cpressey: Install fortunes-fr. If nothing else, you will be amused. 01:09:48 Oui, j'amuse. 01:09:49 [[[Historical note: Portia, as it has stood for many years, cannot really generalize either, so the combination of beta-Juliet and Portia is still not Turing-Complete.]]] 01:09:50 HA. 01:10:10 Some sort of InfinitePortia might work 01:10:33 But I wrote 2iota instead 01:10:45 "beta-Juliet and Portia are puns on the names of automobile manufacturers." ;; Wait, which? 01:11:07 As is 2iota :) 01:11:48 But Toyota sucks now so I regret calling it that now. 01:11:57 Which manufacturers yaeraeryahragh 01:12:01 cpressey: Can 2iota programs terminate? 01:12:08 Well, "Portia" should be easy 01:12:20 alise: Yes, if there are no more events 01:12:29 Por...tea...ah. 01:12:37 cpressey: Darn. 01:12:51 cpressey: You could have made a joke wrt the recent Toyotas that wouldn't stop accelerating. 01:12:58 Hey yeah! 01:13:02 Darn. 01:13:12 Why did you not forsee this?!?!??!?!!?! 01:14:27 cpressey: Hey, do you strictly need the alphabet/succ stuff? 01:14:49 event Succ One, causes SuccResult Two; 01:14:53 event Succ Two, causes SuccResult Three; 01:14:54 ... 01:14:56 then 01:15:17 strictly? probably not 01:15:23 event Domino N Falls, causes Succ N. 01:15:31 event SuccResult N, causes Domino N Falls. 01:15:34 but in any case, the Result Succs. 01:15:55 cpressey: what is succ Seven, anyway? 01:15:57 if you have an alphabet of seven 01:16:02 One? 01:16:14 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:16:16 I think it's One Seven. 2iota has lists of symbols. Or something 01:16:26 Er, or One One? 01:16:29 You're crazy. 01:16:29 I forget. 01:16:49 I'm more than crazy. I'm Dubious. Or I *was*. 01:17:17 SO, I know I need a 'try', but I don't know where to put it. Attempt #1 did not bear fruit. 01:19:30 alise: the whole "succ" thing was to ensure that you could access an infinite set of names of events. 01:19:37 try's loins are infertile. 01:19:47 Otherwise there would be no Turing-completey. 01:20:41 Beer! Beer will help. 01:20:59 alise: OK, "Porsche" and "Alfa Romeo" 01:21:16 cpressey: Oh, I thought it was a pronunciation pun. 01:21:20 Like 2iota. 01:21:53 Actually "Portia" was this character in "Weerd-Oh's"... I assume they were punning it. I just borrowed it, in that respect. 01:22:05 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:22:22 Misplaced apostrophe syndrome. 01:22:23 Beep beep beep. 01:22:49 -!- myndzi has joined. 01:23:06 Sorry, "Weird-Ohs". http://sharetv.org/shows/weird-ohs_ca 01:23:51 But yes. beta-Juliet is more of a correspondence play-on-words. 01:24:41 I've gotten emails from people assuming the languages have something to do with Shakespeare, because there's a Portia in one of his other plays. 01:26:35 I never did get the pun in "beta-Juliet" 01:27:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:27:11 What's alpha-romeo supposed to mena? 01:27:12 *mean 01:27:32 I just have one question, if you have any opinion what DVI specials the TeXnicard DVI driver needs to support. 01:27:37 I assume that the joke's there, and "beta-Juliet" is a second-tier joke 01:27:43 Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo 01:28:37 zzo38: I have no opinion on that matter. 01:29:03 Sgeo doesn't know of Alfa Romeo? 01:29:41 O, that is what Alfa Romeo means. And is that where "beta-Juliet" comes from? 01:29:45 It's an automaker? 01:30:02 ... 01:30:33 cpressey: Please have a go at stage 60 of Dot Action 2. 01:30:37 Code 188-268. kthx 01:32:11 fizzie: SERIOUSLY HOW DO YOU DO IT 01:32:16 alise: Please give me Flash on Ubuntu without any hassle. 01:32:37 cpressey: Install the package. 01:32:39 Done. 01:32:53 alise, please play stage 101 of Dot Action 2 01:33:07 Sgeo: no 01:33:07 grr ok 01:33:17 Sgeo: I haven't completed 60-100 yet. 01:33:32 And what is the best way to implement allowing the text to be stretched horizontally but not vertically, if there is not room, it will make it less wider horizontal, with using TeX, METAFONT, ImageMagick, etc? 01:33:43 Those won't show up in the list when you do the bonus code 01:33:50 zzo38: the only TeX etc. we know is LaTeX. 01:33:57 Sgeo: 101 > 100. 01:34:01 They appear after you complete 100. 01:34:10 I don't care how you justify it to yourself, I am playing in order and that means 100 before 101. 01:34:12 alise, have you checked the flash file for that? 01:34:23 Sgeo: I have /done it/ before when using a code for all 100, iirc. 01:34:26 Or at least someone here did. 01:34:26 You know only LaTeX? 01:34:48 zzo38: All of us do, more or less. Or nothing at all. 01:34:52 alise: Hassle level has risen above 0.4%, aborting. 01:35:03 cpressey, you had to accept a LICENSE? 01:35:07 cpressey: What? 01:35:17 sha256sum mismatch install_flash_player_10_linux.tar.gz 01:35:18 The Flash plugin is NOT installed. 01:35:29 cpressey: Whaat? 01:35:33 aptitude update 01:35:35 * cpressey walks awat 01:35:37 awayy 01:35:38 You have an out-of-date package file, probably. 01:35:51 cpressey: That is the package, right? 01:36:38 cpressey: sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install flashplugin-nonfree 01:36:40 No reason that should not work. 01:36:55 I am not asking about macro packages though. I am asking about how I should implement the DVI driver and stuff like that, to make it work properly like that. 01:37:29 zzo38: None of us know about that. 01:37:38 As far as I am aware. 01:37:43 Did a 'sudo apt-get update'. Did a 'sudo apt-get remove flashplugin-nonfree' then again with the 'sudo apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree'. Same checksum error. 01:38:23 I'd alfa-romeo HER beta-Juliet 01:38:26 01:38:51 cpressey: 32-bit or 64-bit? 01:39:23 alise: 32-bit 01:39:32 cpressey: Okay, it's easy then: 01:39:56 sounds vaguely like the package is corrupted somehow 01:39:58 cpressey: http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/thankyou/?installer=Flash_Player_10.1_for_Linux_(.deb) 01:39:59 if the checksum is wrong 01:40:04 cpressey: Save this, then "sudo dpkg -i thefilename". 01:40:06 Done. 01:40:24 (ais523: I know, I know, they have an apt repository, but this is simple.) 01:40:45 I'd apt HER cache 01:40:48 ais523: and it sounds to me like Adobe upgraded it silently 01:40:49 Sgeo: stop that 01:40:58 I'd stop HER... Ok, enough 01:41:22 fizzie: Are you there. 01:41:23 :| 01:43:56 alise: And restart Firefox I presume> 01:43:59 s/>/?/ 01:44:22 cpressey: Just reloading a page should work, but if not, yeah. 01:44:39 alise: Gimme that dot action link again 01:44:54 http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ 01:45:01 I'd prefer a fast mirror with 1.10, but there you go. 01:45:06 188-268 for level 60 01:45:14 I think the trick is to bash off the ceiling before you drop down to the line of blues, so you fall faster. 01:45:21 Working! 01:45:29 REST OF WEEKEND NOW GONE 01:46:34 ]What's so great about 1.10? 01:46:54 alise: HOw do I enter the code? 01:46:57 Sgeo: Dunno. It's totally updated. 01:46:58 asd prevent tk be dru nk 01:47:00 cpressey: Second menu item. 01:47:16 Does cpressy even know the slightest thing about playing? 01:47:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:47:22 Cyan == goal. You need all of theym 01:47:28 alise: Yes. Figured it out 01:47:31 Yellow == death, unless the Zet timer is running 01:47:39 Sgeo: HE knows. 01:47:40 *He 01:47:41 Sgeo: No he doesn't really. He got up to level 3 a few days ago! 01:48:00 ....so what happened in the meantime that Flash is no longer existant? 01:48:06 How do I suicide? 01:48:21 Enter 01:48:23 Sgeo: That was a work computer. 01:48:24 Arrow 01:48:24 End 01:48:33 Sgeo: thx 01:48:35 erm, Arrow to End, then space 01:48:35 yw 01:49:34 HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO PASS LEVEL 60 IN THAT SORT OF TIME LIMIT???? 01:49:43 cpressey: Zombies 01:49:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 01:49:55 I've been level with the last dot when I die 01:50:06 I am sure you have to bash against the ceiling so you fall faster when you go to that line of dots 01:50:32 I only got past the first "water" and the clock ran out. 01:58:30 -!- Tegeen has joined. 01:58:30 HI GUYS. ENJOY FLYING FREENODE. WE ONLY ASK THAT YOU JOIN #FREENODE :) 01:58:30 -!- Tegeen has left (?). 02:00:51 why spam this channel? 02:01:05 it's a kind-of pointless channel to spam... 02:01:08 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:01:14 they should spam #freenode instead, there are many more people there 02:01:25 i've told #freenode. 02:01:27 Advertisement tends to just piss us off, anyones. 02:01:32 Anyways. 02:01:52 Seems kinda pointless to spam Freenode in general, really. 02:02:01 I'm up to level 10! 02:02:06 And to spam about #freenode in particukar... 02:03:57 I have a confession to make. I am actually a spammer. 02:04:08 I came in here to spam PSOX related articles 02:04:12 cpressey: uhh 02:04:15 cpressey: lol 02:04:20 PSOX, how does THAT work? 02:04:29 I, too, have a confession. 02:04:36 I am actually a Juggalo. 02:05:05 cpressey, you see, I am a time-travelling spammer 02:05:31 Within 5 years, PSOX will be a hugely successful commercial product, and I will use this channel as free labor. 02:05:42 So my goal is to get all the minds here primed for that event. 02:06:10 Anyone want to help me magnetize cpressey? 02:06:12 That is not going well. 02:07:38 ais523: they did 02:07:38 HI GUYS. ENJOY FLYING FREENODE. WE ONLY ASK THAT YOU JOIN #FREENODE :) 02:07:43 in #freenode 02:07:53 how... confusing 02:08:42 Um, by "move along", do they mean leave? 02:08:45 Or just don't talk? 02:09:10 Sgeo: I don't know who they are talking to. 02:09:14 It's +z, as they've said. 02:09:16 Can you see my messages? 02:09:19 Yes 02:09:46 Conclusion: #freenode are kind of assholes. Scratch the "kind of". 02:10:31 That's like me concluding that LambdaMOO is anti-documentation based on one person... oh wait 02:10:37 I did conclude that. Maybe we're both wrong 02:12:37 LambdaMOO! 02:13:31 * Sgeo moos at cpressey 02:13:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:15:39 * Sgeo moos at the Firefox plugin 02:16:33 what firefox plugin? 02:16:47 Erm, add-on 02:17:41 what add-on? 02:19:01 Is your goal to get me to say the name? Because I would have said it eventually if I didn't realize that that was your goal 02:21:38 Sure. 02:27:01 GreaseMonkey, do you mind if I ping you 02:27:02 ? 02:27:22 Why have I been acting drunk today? 02:28:10 http://blog.thejit.org/wp-content/exp/exp-canvas/index.html 02:28:16 Sgeo: caffeine? 02:28:31 Sgeo: hi. 02:28:43 I've had caffeine this past week, but none today 02:28:47 Maybe that's why? 02:29:42 unlikely. 02:32:19 [[The smallest movement a computer mouse can detect is referred to as a "mickey"]] 02:32:22 I so dearly hope this is true. 02:36:48 alise: I have read about that too, about the "mickey" 02:37:48 * cpressey slips Sgeo a mickey 02:45:39 http://qntm.org/files/aasia/01.jpg SAM HUGHES???? 02:46:08 alise, you are going to read Fine Structure sometime before you die, right? 02:46:17 yes 02:46:18 and why the ?s 02:47:01 I've never seen a picture of him before 02:47:04 That I remmeber 02:47:27 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7306696114058163464 02:58:38 Wow, Tubular Bells is a weirder song than I thought. 02:58:41 "Mandolin!" 03:00:39 Song? It's 48:57 long! 03:03:31 The one I was listening to, which claimed to be the original, was 8:07. Five minutes before there are any actual tubular bells, too. 03:03:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8l5fthffiE 03:05:50 It occurs to me that when I talk about my dad, I only talk about bad stuff. I never talk about the ok stuff, or the funny stuff 03:07:20 Sgeo: That tears it. There is NO WAY you will get me to believe you aren't drunk. 03:07:40 Throughout the whole day? 03:07:50 Well, it's possible... 03:09:47 Well anyway, I seem to have a PL-{GOTO} parser, written in Parsec, now. 03:09:47 I think, if I ever did get drunk, I'd try to make sure I'd lock out my computer access 03:09:57 Good plan. 03:10:13 Don't need to end up deleting all muy backupkless files 03:10:28 Or: http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-with-complete-mamas-family-video-library-never,1592/ 03:10:48 Don't need to end up deleting all muy backupkless files 03:10:50 You're drunk. 03:11:10 Because of typos? Or because I think it's a thing I'd do if I were drunk? 03:14:15 cpressey: I DID STAGE 60 HAHAHA 03:14:17 Sgeo: the typos 03:15:03 The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. THe quick brown fox jumos over the lazy dog. The quick brown fix jumps over the lazy dog. 03:15:18 The TH is a typical typo for me anywyas 03:15:40 * cpressey shakes his fist at alise 03:16:59 If I _am_ drunk, maybe my body's weirdly producing (extra?) alcohol for some reason 03:17:04 Maybe I should see a doctor 03:19:43 http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/index.php 03:19:43 Sgeo: Uhh ... no ... 03:20:00 cpressey: AROS' mascot has always disturbed me. 03:20:00 Well, as far as I know, I have not imbibed alcohol today 03:20:14 Sgeo: You aren't drunk. At least not on alcohol. 03:20:25 alise: I concur. 03:20:42 * Sgeo decides that alise is a flip-flopper 03:20:52 I'm also not a fan of having to run it under VirtualBox. 03:20:57 Sgeo: You said it yourself. 03:21:01 cpressey: Why do you have to? 03:21:11 alise: Because you have to. It seems. 03:21:15 o_O 03:21:17 As opposed to? 03:21:20 Hardware or another VM? 03:21:23 Well, you could install it on the physical machine. 03:21:35 But they had me thinking it was like WINE. 03:21:48 Although, I've never actually *run* WINE... 03:22:14 I'll live with UAE for now. Workbench 1.3 forever! Woo! 03:22:30 cpressey: WinUAE ftw 03:22:38 UAE? 03:23:37 Sgeo: United Arab Emirates 03:26:02 -!- oklopol has joined. 03:26:02 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofok. 03:26:20 oklofok: Hey! 03:26:27 Sup 03:26:54 oklofok! yo! 03:26:56 in the set of all species, are there subsets that are cartesian products of sets of cardinality > 1 03:26:59 oklofok: Yes. 03:27:05 oklofok: In two years you owe me £50, bitch. 03:27:19 alise: is it trivially true? 03:27:42 well 03:27:47 oklofok: only in a universe of 6 03:27:59 okay let's say at least cardinality 3, and at least 2 sets 03:28:40 cpressey: what's sup is i can't sleep 03:29:20 university starts in a few days, so my brain is on speed 03:30:06 oklofok: why have you been so absenttt? 03:30:31 well i was in scotland for a week or more, and i've been working and stuff 03:30:46 oklofok: you've been away for months 03:30:49 i will probably be absent in the near future, too, because of the university thing 03:30:52 oh have i 03:30:54 AGRAJAG! 03:30:58 well i worked for months 03:31:22 AAAAAAAAAGGGRAAAJJJAAAAGGGG 03:31:33 I feel like I need to scream for some reason 03:31:39 been there 03:31:49 i'm hungry 03:31:56 Sgeo: have you drunk at a public place today 03:32:09 :D 03:32:09 oklofok: anyway start coming here more we're all cool now although AnMaster is now Vorpal so watch out 03:32:20 actually i said that because Sgeo has been acting drunk all day 03:32:22 Vorpal?!? 03:32:25 didn't see that coming 03:32:39 oh 03:33:10 i figured he just acted drunk (for a Sgeo) for three lines 03:33:22 and you saw right through it 03:33:36 because u so smart 03:33:51 so oklofok 03:33:53 remember DOT ACTION 2 03:34:03 alise, how did you learn about Dot Action 2? 03:34:14 Sgeo: clicking random on dagobah.biz lot 03:34:17 *a lot 03:34:20 Ah 03:34:22 WHY DO I HAVE TO WAIT TILL MONDAY TO GET LECTURE NOTES :(( 03:34:26 s/dagobah.biz lot/dagobah.biz a lot/ 03:34:31 alise: i may remember it 03:34:38 it was that trivial game right 03:34:40 I sometimes go there, but few things from it really stand out 03:34:44 oklofok, trivial at first game 03:34:45 oklofok: yes, which you played up to at least stage 98 03:34:48 oklofok: get playing again 03:34:53 i'm up to 64 03:35:05 Sgeo: well right, the few levels after 100 were hard according to fizzie, iirc 03:35:28 You didn't need to put the code for the bonus levels in? 03:35:30 o.O 03:35:32 some were hard according to alise, but... 03:35:32 101 was easy 03:35:40 oklofok: i'm a lot better at it now :P 03:35:45 i believe you 03:35:52 I'M ALSO 03:35:58 as well too 03:36:04 oklofok: although me and another have been destroying our thumbs doing 60 (cpressey merely believes it is impossible) 03:36:15 Sgeo: what does "You didn't need to put the code for the bonus levels in?" mean 03:36:26 Not impossible exactly, just beyond my own ability. That is some insane shit right there. 03:36:26 i have never tried the bonus levels 03:36:38 I thought 101-108 were save code only 03:36:44 And not actually achievable without it 03:36:46 >.> 03:36:56 oklofok: Sgeo thinks that since 101-108 appear in a separate menu, they absolutely cannot appear after 100 and it isn't cheating to play them before the others 03:37:03 (well, not cheating, but not in-order play) 03:38:28 i still don't get it, was Sgeo surprised that i managed to play the game without first playing the bonus levels? 03:38:41 oklofok: no, he thought you completed level 100 03:38:43 and unlocked the save codes 03:38:49 which conflicts with his ardent, unjustified beliefs about reality 03:39:06 oh, right, " oklofok: yes, which you played up to at least stage 98". 03:39:17 (for Sgeo) 03:39:18 oh 03:39:20 at least 03:39:47 i don't think i finished it, the last levels took ages to finish 03:40:16 (which doesn't really imply hard imo) 03:41:37 `I may ebed to go to sleep soon 03:41:41 I'm incredibl tired 03:41:46 No output. 03:41:54 how apropos 03:42:02 HackEgo: alise'S thoughts exactly 03:42:09 *s 03:42:22 * Sgeo is laugujing like a maniac 03:42:29 And thinks typoing is hilarious 03:42:38 so what was that staircase saying 03:42:57 typoing is a serious thing 03:43:09 Sgeo: what was that ... 03:43:16 Sgeo: what i'm saying is that your drink was probably spiked. 03:43:19 if there was such a drink. 03:43:26 ohh 03:43:29 that's what you meant 03:43:32 xD 03:43:45 i went for a slightly more offensive meaning 03:43:46 There wasn't,, I think 03:44:02 oklofok, tellmetoellme 03:44:11 gladly 03:44:50 Sgeo: okay, you have ingested /something/ today 03:44:53 what did you do different from other days 03:44:56 eat more? less? different? 03:45:12 I didn't have a chicken sandwich today, since I wasn't at school 03:45:37 Oh! 03:45:37 Hm. Chicken withdrawal. Yes. Could be serious. 03:45:50 when people drink, they often come to irc, because it's fun. some people seem to consider this some sort of "i'm cool cuz i'm drunk" bragging; i thought alise was doing this sort of considering; i thought the adding of "at a public place" was because people who drink with their friends are the people who brag the most about their drinking 03:45:53 I had four slices of pizza this morning (or, well, afternoon, since I woke up late) 03:46:00 oklofok: we'd already confirmed he hadn't drunk 03:46:12 And had four slices last night\ 03:46:14 oh okay 03:46:16 Sgeo: pizza is not intoxicating. 03:46:23 perhaps some ingredient went bad 03:46:25 the cheese, perhaps 03:46:26 I'm treating this as a joke 03:46:44 treating what as a joke 03:46:47 I think it's more humorous for everyone to act like they think I am drunk 03:47:26 more humorous than what 03:47:33 Maybe I'm just like this when I'm tired 03:47:38 are like what 03:47:40 oklofok, trying to seriously find something wrong 03:47:45 oklofok, drunk-acty 03:47:45 wrong with what? 03:48:00 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to oklowhat. 03:48:00 ...what? 03:48:08 Yes? 03:48:16 huh 03:48:20 i'm... 03:48:21 confused 03:48:26 PARTY TIME 03:48:26 PARTY TIME 03:48:26 PARTY TIME 03:48:27 PARTY TIME 03:48:27 PARTY TIME 03:48:28 PARTY TIME 03:48:28 PARTY TIME 03:48:28 PARTY TIME 03:48:29 PARTY TIME 03:48:29 PARTY TIME 03:48:29 PARTY TIME 03:48:41 Obviously, I'll have to druink 03:48:45 so 03:48:57 maybe i should define something 03:49:13 define whores 03:49:28 Cause whores to exist. Did I really just ype whores? 03:49:55 I couldn't see my screen when I typed it, because a rubber hand was in the way 03:50:21 irreducibility of shift space X: for all u, v \in B(X), uwv \in B(X) for some w, where B(X) is the language of words occurring as subwords in the points of X 03:50:36 * oklowhat hits oklowhat with a subword 03:52:25 most of my definitions would require defining shift spaces, and i don't wanna do that because i think i've done it already 03:52:26 shift spaces, dear god 03:52:39 SPACES 03:52:53 oklofok: if you're doing this for acting, stop. it isn't amusing 03:53:13 alise: what? 03:53:14 anyway 03:53:25 shift spaces are the bridge between discrete and continuous mathematics... if I am remembering correctly 03:53:32 yes, a bridge! 03:53:37 Well, one of the bridges anyway 03:53:41 alise, did you mean me? 03:53:42 basically 03:53:50 oklofok: yes 03:53:52 erm 03:53:53 oklowhat: yes 03:53:56 sorry oklofok 03:54:01 ohhh 03:54:06 makes sense 03:54:10 /nick oklopop 03:54:17 * oklowhat seriously does feel giggly 03:54:21 so, to cpressey again, if you have a dynamical system, that is, some sort of space, and a continuous function on it 03:54:43 then you can, sort, of, model it using a shift space, in some cases 03:55:12 how you do this is you partition the continuous space in a finite number of subsets 03:55:14 -!- oklowhat has changed nick to Sgeo. 03:55:47 and then for a point, you record the bi-infinite sequence of subsets it lands in, when you apply the continuous function (we assume it's invertible, makes the theory a bit prettier) 03:56:17 this gives you a point in A^Z, if A is the set of those subsets partitioning the continuous space 03:56:43 and when you do this for all the points in the space 03:56:51 you get a subsets of A^Z 03:56:53 *subset 03:57:22 and that subset turns out to be a shift space! 03:58:12 I seem to remember things like regular languages over A to describe the behaviour of those continuous functions (like, if the curve always oscillates between two of the partitions, you have (AB)*) 03:58:16 It's cool stuff 03:58:38 ok, (AB)* was not the best choice, since A was already used 03:58:47 that's continuous => discrete, then we usually require that going the other way (taking a sequence in A^Z) always gives you exactly one point in the continuous space, this doesn't give you all the continuous space, usually, but it gives you a dense subset 03:58:53 if {a,b} subset A, then (ab)* 03:59:01 Oi 03:59:11 oklofok, give me a tutorial someday 03:59:24 Going the other way is ... much harder to think about 03:59:28 Sgeo: it's happening already ;) 04:00:15 I'm too tired and giggly to comprehend anything right now 04:00:21 Well, giggly gone 04:01:07 oklofok: i graciously accept your birthday wishes 04:01:23 cpressey: (ab)* couldn't be the language of the shift space, but Y = (ab)* + b(ab)* + (ab)*a could, needs to be closed under factors; in any case yes, that could be the language of an oscillating curve, then you just need to take all the bi-infinite words such that their subwords are in Y, and you get the shift space 04:01:40 factors = subwords 04:02:02 so i believe you have been taught this same stuff 04:02:23 oklofok: I never took a course, but I did read some interesting books, which I half-understood. 04:02:33 * Sgeo can't wait to struggle to understand the log tomorrow 04:02:41 Stephen Smale, applications to hardware like disk drives, and stuff... 04:03:31 i haven't actually seen much of the discrete vs continuous stuff, a few definitions (half of which i already sort of gave), and one example of finding a markov partition (markov partition = partition where the language of the shift space happens to be of "finite type") for a space 04:04:25 shift space of finite type means a bi-infinite word is in the language iff all its subwords less than N in length are in a set of allowed words 04:04:40 N and the set of allowed words definining the shift space 04:04:45 *defining 04:04:52 cpressey: what books 04:04:57 oh 04:05:47 Is there an uncountable infinite discreet space? A countably infinite continuous space? Or are these axiomatically tied in, or is there a theorem? 04:06:04 Sgeo: well, what does discrete mean? 04:06:15 So definitionally, then 04:06:27 oklofok: Gah, I don't remember all of them. The math library was my half-understood playground at one point... let me think. 04:06:37 discreteness is defined in topology, and once you know the definition, those questions become trivial 04:06:45 if you use that definition 04:07:14 "continuous space" doesn't mean anything, rigorously speaking, afaik 04:07:22 well 04:07:28 maybe it could mean a perfect space 04:07:44 (no open set is singleton) 04:07:59 oklofok: This was one: http://www.amazon.com/Topology-Computation-Proceedings-Smalefest/dp/0387979328 04:08:15 Smale is a genius. 04:08:52 there are too many books out there, i've never even heard of that one :< 04:09:20 Sgeo: topologically speaking, a discrete space is one where every set is open 04:09:27 "Is there an uncountable infinite discreet space?" 04:09:32 let use construct one 04:09:38 I've always been interested in "the topology of computation" (ill-defined as it is,) so when I saw this book I picked it up 04:09:41 take an uncountably infinite set X 04:10:21 give it the discrete topology, giving us the topological space (X, 2^X) (set of open sets is just the powerset of X, set of all subsets) 04:10:42 then by definition it is discrete 04:10:52 and it's uncountable because X is 04:10:55 Sgeo: cpressey: http://i.imgur.com/iCSp3.png I WEEP 04:11:19 cpressey: do you know topology? 04:11:42 * Sgeo only knows it as "thingy where you don't tear or fold, but stretch" 04:11:49 alise: that one took a little bit of thinking 04:12:15 alise, you presumably already consumed a green? 04:12:48 Yeah, learn to work out which area is the absolutely last one you can go to 04:12:53 Had to do that on an earlier level 04:13:18 Sgeo: sounds like that might describe topology, yes 04:13:33 oklofok: Only barely. 04:13:40 although it could describe linear algebra as well... 04:14:05 I thought linear algebra was matrixes 04:14:26 let use construct one 04:14:26 linear algebra is linear transformations, matrices are an "implementation" of those 04:14:27 HAHAHA AN ERROR 04:14:31 *us 04:14:32 :( 04:14:49 I used to have the "it's all about stretching" understanding of topology. I now have the "it's all about limits" understanding. 04:15:24 i have the "there's a set and a collection of subsets that is closed under union and finite intersection, and the whole set and the empty set are in that collection" understanding 04:15:26 I know very little topological math 04:15:56 i used to have the "topology is something cool and scary" understanding 04:15:56 This is what I get for reading books geared towards laypeople 04:16:32 That's pretty much all I've _ever_ read. Stuff geared towards laypeople 04:16:49 It seems to actually be kind of useless for looking at finite, discrete objects, like say computer programs. You have to treat the object as being infinite or continuous in some respect, I think. 04:17:10 i don't think topology admits an english explanation that is intuitive, unambiguous and at all true 04:17:43 oklofok: Have you read "Counterexamples in Topology"? 04:17:48 nope 04:18:00 been planning to buy it thought because it's famous 04:18:04 *though 04:18:05 grr 04:18:40 I found it entertaining even knowing very little about topology, because... well, counterexamples! 04:18:55 oklofok is turning into not-actually-drunk me! 04:19:38 * Sgeo likes it when people turn into people 04:20:12 Hm, at the time I was also somewhat interested in... metric spaces? Something close to that. Something with "entourages". 04:20:30 the things with entourages are between topological spaces and metric spaces 04:20:34 they are called uniform spaces 04:20:41 That's it, uniform spaces. 04:20:54 I don't remember why I was interested in them, now :) 04:21:07 the idea is, you can't actually say how close two things are, like in metric spaces, but you can say "these two things are as close to each other are these other two are to each other", which you can't do in a topological space 04:21:50 of course, that comparison in quotes there only works if you do it "in some infinite way", a bit hard to explain what that means :P 04:21:55 right 04:23:13 you can't actually compare the distances; but you can like get closer to two points at the same rate, in some sense 04:23:19 i really just know the definition, if that... 04:24:35 err 04:24:38 maybe more like 04:24:47 you can get closer to an infinite amount of points at the same rate? 04:24:55 maybe i should skip the intuitive stuff 04:26:06 * oklofok has to wp definition 04:26:10 * oklofok doesn't remember 04:27:13 oklofok, you'll have to direct me to some online resources 04:28:08 that's hard to do, i would really just recommend going to uni :\ 04:28:23 but maybe i could be more helpful if you knew what you were looking for 04:28:56 for symbolic dynamics, "symbolic dynamics and coding" is an awesome book 04:30:28 although you probably can't read past chapter 3 if you don't know linear algebra, and you probably can't read past chapter 6 unless you're willing to spend a *lot* of time filling in details 04:30:47 (i spend about 1.5 hours on a proof today) 04:30:49 *spent 04:31:21 * cpressey blinks 04:32:07 I spent about that much time getting up to speed on Parsec (parser combinator library for Haskell) 04:32:52 well, i'm slow 04:32:58 Is it possible to take both grad and undergrad courses as a grad? 04:33:34 in our university, you can do what the fuck you want 04:33:46 but probably you won't get them in your degree 04:34:20 It should be as easy to learn math online as computer skills... 04:34:22 * Sgeo growls 04:34:36 Actually, I think I took about 2 hours, and most of the day before that, trying to decide if that was what I wanted to waste my time doing this weekend, or not - so I think I'm the one who's slow here :) 04:34:40 Math is, even more than computer programming, something you can practice at home 04:35:08 Math is a way of thinking 04:35:13 I know that sounds soooooo cheesy 04:35:17 indeed 04:35:36 * coppro starts uni in 9 days 04:35:49 cpressey: Cheesy but true. 04:35:50 * oklofok starts uni in 2 \o/ 04:35:59 pikhq: guess what i'm taking this semester 04:36:04 * pikhq has been going for two weeks now 04:36:16 pikhq: lucky bastard 04:36:25 oklofok: And now I have a 4 day weekend. 04:36:37 Inexplicably, we get the day *after* labor day off as well. 04:37:10 Well, math should be able to fulfill my Arts & Sciences requirements 04:37:13 Here 04:37:16 Clearly, this is to add to the easiness of community college classes. 04:37:19 Although it's not a science, so... 04:37:23 (mmm, cheap-ass semester) 04:38:26 Sgeo: if you are street smart and want to learn math, you should just take some random math book and start doing exercises like crazy. i can't really make myself do that, i make up for it by being able to stare at things for a long time. 04:38:40 pikhq: you didn't guess 04:38:42 "street smart"? 04:39:01 Sgeo: i thought if i say smart, you interpret it as "if you're already good at math" 04:39:33 I'm good in the sense that I comprehend it well.. at least, I think I do. 04:39:42 "have common sense" 04:39:50 if you ... and want to 04:39:52 I remember nothing that I learned that's more advanced than the basics taught in Calc the Easy Way 04:40:05 * Sgeo distrusts common sense 04:40:41 But I think I know what you mean 04:40:42 pikhq: hint: you could guess, others couldn't 04:41:24 WHAT THE FUCK WHY DID MY IME STOP WORKING 04:41:48 Sgeo: calc the easy way sounds like a horrible idea 04:41:48 Restart terminal, all is well. 04:41:54 oklofok: 日本語? 04:42:01 * Sgeo hopes that his neighbors can't hear the sounds coming from his computer 04:42:05 oklofok, o.O howso? 04:42:09 pikhq: hai 04:42:15 Are you saying I massively screwed myself over? 04:42:25 (disclaimer: i didn't start yet) 04:43:13 for instance i don't actually know what you said :D 04:43:23 "Japanese". 04:43:29 i don't know any katakana or kanji, memorized all hiragana tho 04:43:44 oklofok: Also: any idea what the cirriculum for that class is like? 04:43:54 Curriculum, I mean. 04:43:59 well i know the book 04:44:00 it's... 04:44:06 oklofok, hello? 04:44:09 There's a lot of awful Japanese programs. I'd like to see a good one. 04:44:27 integrated course in elementary japanese 04:44:31 ... 04:44:32 ... 04:44:40 :D 04:44:52 Genki? 04:44:55 Sgeo: oh sorry 04:44:59 pikhq: yes 04:45:00 ... 04:45:01 ... 04:45:01 ... 04:45:02 ? 04:45:02 That's quite slow. 04:45:19 pikhq: i noticed 04:45:34 Better than most other programs, though. 04:45:36 really all i care about is that i now have something to memorize with brain full of university energy 04:45:47 Sgeo: err, i'm not saying you screwed yourself over 04:46:12 (among other things, it *doesn't freaking have you use rômasì for long*) 04:46:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:46:36 but calculus is something that i encourage everyone to learn as hard a way as possible 04:46:40 party, oerjan 04:46:42 ! 04:47:18 pikhq: romasi = english alph? 04:47:25 i mean, equivalents of 04:47:39 oklofok: "Roman letters", literal translation. 04:48:03 Also, without the diacritics that is completely incomprehensible. 04:48:20 (rōmaji in the "normal" Hepburn romanisation, BTW) 04:48:45 (aaaand rômazi in Nihonsiki and Kunreisiki) 04:48:56 so wait is the s voiced or not 04:49:14 Voiced. 04:49:33 err, but is it j or z :D 04:49:58 Hepburn romanisation is the one that is related with English pronounciation. 04:50:23 oklofok: COMM... wait, i already did that. FASC... darn, did that too. PIRATE! 04:50:23 In hiragana, that's ろーまじ. 04:50:30 i'm assuming japanese = lojban, shi = c, j = j, s = s, z = z 04:50:39 s/shi/sh/ 04:50:48 oklofok: Close. 04:51:10 Not precise, but not off by much. 04:51:18 i haven't actually heard any japanese after learning any of it 04:51:54 I wish I had a microphone so I could record myself. As it is, I'll have to find a good example. 04:51:56 (because i started today and i don't watch anime) 04:52:22 oerjan: It's a pizza party with a pony parade! 04:52:47 this will probably be an interesting experience, because japanese is the first language i'm actually going to try to learn 04:53:11 everything else i've learned by accident 04:53:19 (in the classroom) 04:53:32 cpressey: a pizza party with a pony parade is no basis for a system of government 04:54:00 i wish i knew how to make hiragana 04:54:04 pizzapartyocracy 04:54:07 then me and pikhq could be annoying together 04:54:37 What was that FRC round with -ocracy where the least fit governed? 04:54:38 ohayoo gozaimasu! 04:55:19 oklofok: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR7RS90NmaM&feature=related Here, have something about a Japanese speech contest. 04:55:46 It's the first thing I found that was both natural and relatively simple to listen to. 04:55:55 * Sgeo sleeps on #esoteric 04:57:07 do i hear americaDJIN? 04:57:11 i mean D 04:57:17 * coppro pushes Sgeo off 04:57:38 hmm 04:57:48 why the fuck didn't i realize that's the natural thing to mean 04:57:52 damn lojban 04:57:53 * Sgeo wonders if his first introduction to nomic was FRC 04:58:14 Oh, right, lojban uses j like that. 04:58:42 I remember how I found FRC: Someone had a link about learning to play 4-dimensional scrabble 04:58:45 FRC is almost not a nomic 04:59:27 It's possible that that link was on a nomic related page. If so, I'm still kost 04:59:28 lost 05:00:04 coppro: it's just administrated by a nomic, and is a nomic-esque game 05:00:17 yeah 05:01:36 pikhq: what's the clip about btw, idgi :D 05:02:38 FRC is a nomic, but just a very weak one 05:03:15 oklofok: Starts with a short blurb on the speaker, and then it's the guy's speech about his various interactions in Japan. Kinda mundane. 05:03:28 Y'know. It's a speech contest for learners of Japanese. Boring shit. 05:03:43 I didn't say it wasn't a nomic 05:03:51 just close to not a nomic 05:04:34 It was just the best example of how clearly spoken Japanese *sounds* like that I could find on short notice is all. 05:05:09 yes just out of curiosity 05:05:22 (BTW, I should note: all the Japanese in there was in fairly clear Standard Japanese, and as such would sound "unaccented") 05:05:39 oklofok: "They do things different in Japan!" 05:05:44 Boring ass shit. 05:05:49 :D 05:06:34 i could make out america and japan, and ippon :D 05:06:48 well, okay a bit more 05:07:27 Only somewhat more interesting than your typical textbook adventures of John Smith and Ichirô Tanaka seeing temples and eating sushi. 05:07:40 sumisu 05:08:05 Ah, yes. Jōn Sumisu and Ichirō Tanaka. 05:10:17 don't forget mearii 05:10:26 Who could forget? 05:10:36 mearii san wa amerikajin desu 05:11:12 desu desu desu 05:11:56 OH 05:12:03 brainfuck mentioned in #haskell 05:12:15 You know the rules! 05:12:17 * cpressey takes a swig 05:12:34 oklofok: do you have a walkthrough for 64? >__> 05:12:35 Hai, mearī san kà hèikoku kara ki'ta no de, nihonkò tiȳo'to musùkasī tà to omo'teiru ne'. 05:13:00 Ketò sa, hètu ni musùkasikunai sè. 05:13:18 * pikhq loves non-standard romanisation 05:14:29 alise: no 05:15:00 oklofok: darn 05:15:03 :P 05:15:23 * pikhq は不標準なローマ字が大好きだ。 05:15:23 lost me at first "ka" 05:15:42 then again at "heikoku":D 05:15:44 *" :D 05:15:50 * oerjan takes a swig of water 05:15:51 maybe we should continue this after a few lessons 05:16:10 oklofok: "Yeah, because Mary came from America, she thinks that Japanese is hard, y'know? But really, it's not all that hard." 05:16:55 is "k "because" 05:17:02 *"k" 05:17:05 oklofok: BTW, the ` diacritic after a consonant is the ゙ in kana. 05:17:10 ohh 05:17:12 ka du sei 05:17:23 so what i'm used to seeing as "ga" 05:17:28 (in pikhq-romanisation) 05:17:57 And the - over a letter is the katakana ー, which elongates a vowel. 05:18:02 Erm. 05:18:07 ... Wait, I did it all wrong. 05:18:17 That should be ^. 05:18:23 - should be the small kana indicator. 05:18:34 I can't even do it right. XD 05:18:35 is kana the same as hiragana 05:18:45 Hiragana is one of two forms of kana. 05:18:46 er 05:18:50 oh okay 05:19:12 Here, lemme just stick that in Hiragana. 05:20:01 yay 05:20:23 はい、 めありい さん が べいこく から きたので、にほんご ちょっと むずかしい と 思っている ねっ。 05:20:36 i'm rather slow, but let's see 05:20:42 けど さ、 べつに むずかしくない ぜ。 05:21:05 Or, in normal Japanese: (:P) 05:21:22 also those are rather different-looking hiragana than the ones i've seen, so i'm even slower 05:21:36 Erm. 05:21:44 s/思っている/おもっている/ 05:21:46 Sorry about that. 05:21:49 mainly they are smaller :P 05:21:58 はい、メアリーさんが米国から来たので、日本語がちょっと難しいと思っているねっ。 05:22:10 けどさ、別に難しくないぜ。 05:25:26 so okay 05:25:31 oh 05:25:39 (i got to the part you corrected) 05:25:41 (:D) 05:30:12 haha 05:30:27 yay i read it without understanding it. 05:32:17 Project! Term-rewriting language with strict typing. Describe the type system with rewriting rules! 05:33:35 (sii)(sii) 05:34:10 * oklofok tries to sleep again -> 05:36:16 I appear to have come down with a cold! 05:36:18 Bitching! 05:36:49 a bitching cold, the worst kind 05:38:47 * pikhq goes to get some cold medicine and munch. 05:43:33 Project! Term-rewriting language with strict typing. Describe the type system with rewriting rules! 05:43:34 I did this 05:43:36 sort of 05:43:57 the type system got terminally rewritten 05:45:00 Rho was sort of supposed to have this in a nasty unclear way. 05:45:43 cpressey: the problem is, what is typed? 05:45:45 there are no functions 05:45:48 so it's hard to imagine what you type 05:46:22 mine had functions initially being (forall a, b, c, ... a|(a,b)|(a,b,c)|... -> forall r, r) 05:46:23 sort of thing 05:46:26 and then they got refined gradually 05:47:13 * pikhq wants to breath again dammi 05:47:15 dammit 05:47:49 breathing is _so_ last millennium 05:48:47 * oerjan wonders if "... is _so_ last ..." is _so_ last millennium 05:52:21 Nö, büt yöü nëëd tö mäkë ït mörë mëtäl. 05:52:43 Ö KÄY 05:53:49 :) 06:02:18 oklofok: CHALLENGE: COMPLETE XJUMP 06:02:48 Is the graph of e^xi just a circle? 06:03:31 erm 06:03:43 Ok, Wolfram alpha has the real and imaginary parts be sin-like 06:03:57 Actually, that's kind of obvious >.> 06:04:05 real is cos, imag is sine 06:04:24 How would it look on a nice 3d graph, though? 06:05:31 http://dame.dyndns.org/misc/xjump/ 06:05:38 Anyone who can get 100 on this is a god. 06:05:38 Sgeo: ...like a spiral? 06:05:55 *helix 06:06:10 alise, why are you awake? 06:06:34 Sgeo: Why shouldn't I be? 06:06:45 Because it's late at night for you? 06:07:15 So? 06:11:29 Sgeo: ? 06:11:49 -!- lament has joined. 06:11:52 hello 06:12:28 hello 06:12:30 who the hell are YOU 06:12:31 i forgot this channel existed! until somebody randomly mentioned miss piggy. 06:12:34 dammit nosebleed 06:12:44 lament: ah yes, the banned one. 06:13:14 i mean, hi lament 06:13:17 she's banned? 06:13:20 unless oerjan unbanned (s)h/it; I forget 06:13:33 lament: yes, she spammed "FUCK YOU" for about 50 lines 06:13:37 haha 06:13:41 not currently banned, no 06:13:50 after showing clear signs of utter mental insanity several times before and basically freaking out on everyone else 06:13:58 we were at the 2 breakdowns/day stage 06:14:06 lament: DON'T SAY SHE SHE'LL GET ANGRY 06:14:08 lament!!!! 06:14:14 cpressey!!!!! 06:14:18 (she yelled at me and augur for PRESUMING HER GENDER) 06:14:25 lament cpressey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 06:15:28 lament: I've been wondering where you were... 06:15:55 * Sgeo begins mentally playing that song from Falcon's Eye 06:16:25 dfgsdfgojdifgoisfdjg it's 6am 06:16:28 cpressey: after getting a job as a programmer, i lost all interest in programming 06:16:33 Sgeo: why have you played falcon's eye? 06:16:40 esoteric or not 06:16:41 lament: Good grief. I know what that's like 06:16:45 I haven't [much] 06:16:56 lament, stop trying to convince me that alise is right 06:17:04 lament: it's a good thing that nobody talks about programming languages here, then 06:17:10 oh good 06:17:15 -!- augur has joined. 06:17:16 I should go look for my phone 06:17:22 lament: both you and oklofok came back on the same day 06:17:23 what a delight 06:17:31 Yeah, it's mostly about Japanese and how Sgeo is drunk. 06:17:38 i have a dildo that smells like jones strawberry lime soda. just fyi. 06:17:49 oh, i see. 06:17:49 Hey! 06:17:54 And the gay sex is back! 06:17:55 Well, the sex. 06:17:59 And augur's gay. 06:18:14 Captain, I hypothesise that we are, in fact, going BACKWARDS through the fourth dimension... that is to say, time. 06:18:39 If we do not take action soon, we will find ourselves in a time when there IS no #esoteric, and the process will be irreversible. 06:18:59 And it's 6am, so I'm talking schizophrenically. Just like old times ... 06:19:07 the direction of decreasing entropy? sounds pretty nice 06:19:38 I thought we established that I'm not actually drunk? 06:19:43 No matter how drunk I may seem 06:19:58 lament: Yes... but increasing... PRIMITIVENESS. 06:20:33 Maybe we can go back before PHP was invented. Or before X was invented 06:20:40 Stop these atrocities from being committed 06:21:00 Captain! I'm picking up unusual sensor readings! It appears that, as our "bubble" of #esoteric is travelling forwards in time compared to the backwards flow of outside the bubble -- otherwise, we would experience things as normal, both sides being switched -- we are ADDING entropy, yet as entropy OUTSIDE the channel is decreasing, there is nowhere for it to go! 06:21:03 Well, I'm trying to compile C code under Amiga Workbench 1.3. That has to count for something. 06:21:15 I estimate that entropy will take over our channel entirely in... 3.6 hours. 06:21:24 What shall we do, Captain?!?!?!?!?! 06:22:27 this may appear like a shocking and unexpected suggestion to you, but if the polarity of entropy is currently the wrong way... 06:23:19 What are you suggesting, Number One? 06:23:29 (Pretend the captain said that. Whoever e is.) 06:23:47 We might then try to reverse the polarity. 06:24:43 lament: At one time, you implemented Thue in Javascript -- is this true? 06:24:49 yes 06:25:58 http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310js_/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.js 06:26:18 lament: What license can I consider this code to be under? 06:26:22 oerjan: It could work. However, there has been an overload in the temporal dynamics systems, and the entropy explosion would be immense. We would have to exit the bubble, exposing ourselves to high levels of positron radiation. 06:26:23 and the corresponding .html 06:26:24 you and your time-traveling powers 06:26:30 The hull would likely collapse. 06:26:56 alise, you could have written technobabble for Voyager! 06:26:57 * Sgeo ducks 06:27:15 cpressey: er, public domain i suppose 06:27:21 no wait 06:27:28 you need to pay me $10000000000 to use it 06:27:36 OH SNAP! 06:27:41 Ah well. 06:27:47 alise: maybe if we _also_ reverse parity, switching matter and antimatter. this might be achieved by taking a detour through a mirror dimension. 06:27:54 I don't *think* I have $10000000000... 06:28:11 Sgeo: "It is made of anti-time. And it is giving off anti-time radiation." 06:28:13 Because I suspect I'd be a lot happier, if I did. 06:28:37 oerjan: Grapple with the Terran Empire? But the production team forgot to switch the main titles! 06:29:52 cpressey: money can't buy happiness 06:30:31 alise: but if we do it _before_ reversing polarity, while entropy is still decreasing - then they would actually appear to be trying to help us. in a weird way. 06:30:32 But it can buy an awful lot of booze and hookers! 06:30:34 i know this because after the last guy to use my Thue interpreter paid me $10000000000, i'm not really any happier 06:31:00 oerjan: Removing fatal phaser shots from our cold, dead bodies! Interesting. 06:31:09 Let's just wait for someone to claim to be the captain and give it the go-ahead. 06:31:20 ok 06:32:37 Woo! Passed level 10! 06:33:18 I may need to charge -$10 dollars for users of PSOX 06:33:32 Actually, passed level 12 now. 06:34:36 lament: how many bits is the number in which that usage charge is stored? and is it signed or unsigned? 06:35:13 To compile C code on the Amiga, you need headers for the AmigaOS API. They're not freely distributable, but you can recreate them from the "FD" files that ship with AmigaBASIC, with the help of a utlity program called FixFD which appears on Fred Fish disk #183. 06:35:30 Night all 06:36:36 Goodnight. 06:36:40 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:40:38 lament: Dare I ask -- what language(s) are you programming in, in your job? 06:41:13 objc++ at the moment 06:41:38 the coolest thing i did recently was try to debug postscript 06:42:31 I know C++, and I know /of/ ObjC, but I didn't know they could be... combined. But I know that Postscript is much cooler than both :) 06:43:22 they're just combined the natural way 06:43:35 the resulting language has two completely separate object systems 06:43:56 two separate exception handling systems, even two boolean types (bool and BOOL) 06:45:20 Oh! The joy! 06:46:05 Sometimes C is used, or C++, or Objective C, or even Objective C++. But I prefer Enhanced CWEB (compiling in C mode). There is also D, and is there Objective D++? 06:46:08 yeah, it's not so bad in practice 06:46:51 just parts of code are written in straight c++, and parts in objc, and interfacing them is easy 06:46:57 But it can be sometimes useful to mix things from different program languages 06:50:13 But sometimes it cannot be done, using the normal way..... I have sometimes found myself wanting to use GOTO in program languages that doesn't have it, use some features of Forth in other programming langauges, and even once INTERCAL stuff! 06:51:19 i had sort of heard the point of D was to get _rid_ of C++'s object system 06:51:29 (well one point at least) 06:51:46 oerjan: Yes, I think that was one point, there are others, too. 06:52:01 which means Objective D++ makes no sense 06:52:50 oerjan: Yes, I know, but I am a bit crazy and I think of crazy ideas sometimes 06:53:10 *GASP* 06:53:12 To me, Enhanced CWEB is good enough for these kind of things, Objective C++ is not needed 06:53:31 I may be wrong about FixFd. I think the header files it creates are for assembly-language programs. :/ But I know I've done this before, there is a tool out there somewhere that can do it. 06:53:32 But I have nothing against if someone else wants to use a different program language 06:54:36 So, none of you have opinion about TeXnicard, because you only use LaTeX? Is that correct? 06:55:32 I don't even use LaTeX. 06:55:36 At best, I use HTML. 06:55:50 With things like a ≡ b &union; c. 06:57:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 06:58:32 For simple on-screen formatting, HTML works OK. And even for more complicated interactive stuff, HTML can be used (but it should not be overused!). HTML files can be printed as well. But TeX is more better, for many things! 06:58:55 I found a "Munching Squares" program for the Amiga! 06:59:17 cpressey: You probably can, they are generally simple programs and can be found for various systems 07:00:06 zzo38: I used LaTeX a long time ago. With the AMS extensions (AMSLaTeX?) It was a huge pain to set up on the OS I was using at the time (FreeBSD).\ 07:01:44 I make TeXnicard because there are many things about Magic Set Editor which I do not like. 07:02:37 So, TeXnicard can be seen as one alternative program that can be used for a similar function. 07:03:12 TeXnicard allows you to combine TeX, METAFONT, Forth, ImageMagick, and WEB. 07:11:04 When I write a program, it is the computer's job to automate everything but it is the user's job to think for themself. This is contrary to many modern programs, in which the computer tries to do both jobs, which isn't very good in my opinion. 07:16:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:18:34 I actually think the thing that translates .FD -> .h is called "LibTool", on Fish Disk #393. But, it's late, I could be wrong. 07:19:29 Also, I'm sure I'm the only one who cares :D 07:20:21 Got a hankerin' to be buildin' me some C programs on an operating system that's been obsolete for 15 years! 07:22:11 Hm, I wonder if there were any Forths for the Amiga, on those Fish disks? 07:24:10 Heh! False appeared on Fred Fish Disk #885! I did not know that. 07:29:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:29:13 -!- augur has joined. 07:29:21 -!- cheater99 has joined. 07:49:16 BytePusher is not pure non-arithmetic, because addition is still required to execute an instruction. 07:59:14 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:01:46 -!- augur has joined. 08:07:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:14:06 -!- lament has joined. 08:27:02 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 08:30:03 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:30:20 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:31:19 -!- dbc has joined. 08:34:59 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:38:00 -!- cheater99 has joined. 08:55:14 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:57:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:05:38 -!- olsner has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:28:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:37:27 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if for all acts of pedantry there exists a Wikipedian who will try to put it into force 09:38:16 fungot, agree? 09:38:17 Phantom_Hoover: i guess the big well that's not too bad but 09:38:44 I'll take that as a "yes". 09:54:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:55:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:08:39 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:08:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:13:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:15:11 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:19:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:25:22 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:33:20 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:52:24 -!- tombom has joined. 11:17:07 in my dream, alise and cpressey sent me a postcard that was an invite to come explore the "natural hoovers" of another universe (natural hoover being a technical term for an inverse volcano) 11:32:21 -!- distant_figure has joined. 11:44:29 -!- olsner has joined. 11:46:12 -!- distant_figure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:47:22 -!- distant_figure has joined. 11:52:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 11:57:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:12:25 oklofok, rather unusual dream 12:12:50 alise: i got 130 12:14:56 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 12:19:28 Vorpal: there were less unusual elements, like things falling in the ocean and me having to dive quickly to catch the important items 12:19:49 i'm sure that means i'm searching for long lost love 12:20:03 or maybe it means you're turning batshit insane 12:20:46 when i got the postcard, the first thing i said was "what the fuck, i have to pay a receiver's fee?!?" 12:21:12 (i was recently in scotland, where phones start doing that) 12:21:17 (my sister rebooted my computer trying to turn on the screens, so I'm missing some history, like the actual description of the dream) 12:21:20 (so that one was obvious) 12:21:27 it's also how SMS:es work in the US 12:21:41 8| 12:21:47 so what people can just make you pay 12:21:55 yep, as I understand it's free to send them, but it costs to receive them 12:22:07 but do they have the option of not receiving them 12:22:27 i mean otherwise if you give someone your phone number, they can just make you pay millions of dollars for fun 12:22:40 I guess they have to, it'd be crazy otherwise 12:23:04 well then again i heard all americanos are stupids so? 12:24:18 well, obviously... so maybe no-one's figured out how to exploit it yet 12:24:37 that would explain how a system like that still works 12:34:57 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:35:16 -!- olsner has joined. 12:48:52 yrep 12:57:23 } else if (c != KEY_VIEW); 12:57:23 goto gotkey; 12:57:26 ugh 12:57:44 and I think that is obfuscated, rather than buggy 13:27:35 -!- SimonRC_ has joined. 13:32:46 -!- SimonRC_ has changed nick to SimonRC. 13:32:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:42:10 * oerjan lols at the darths & droids punchline 13:45:41 FUCK YOU 13:45:42 FUCK YOU 13:45:43 FUCK YOU 13:45:44 FUCK YOU 13:45:45 FUCK YOU 13:45:46 FUCK YOU 13:45:46 FUCK YOU 13:45:53 what is it btw? 13:46:12 oklofok: are you trying to get banned? 13:46:26 maybe?!? 13:47:57 Sgeo_: my solution to megavideo's time limit: connect via uni 14:23:22 -!- derdon has joined. 15:03:31 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:07:35 -!- nooga has joined. 15:08:52 skoml 15:14:02 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:15:45 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:22:43 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:22:43 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:27:12 -!- alise has joined. 15:36:51 i hate circuit analysis 15:39:11 what kind of circuit analysis 15:39:36 the kind where you solve 15 variable equations manually 15:39:50 alise: i'm a deity 15:41:14 -!- EgoBot has joined. 15:41:17 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:42:47 god of extreme overconfidence 15:47:26 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:55:02 23:49:16 BytePusher is not pure non-arithmetic, because addition is still required to execute an instruction. 15:55:04 orly? 15:57:32 oklopol: We didn't want to keep the exquisite pleasures of these natural hoovers all to ourselves! 15:58:11 alise: (Don't tell him about how my brother is in the natural hoover tourism trade.) 15:58:43 W h a t 15:59:08 :P 15:59:36 alise: don't worry about that, natural hoovers suck something terrible 16:00:04 i don't actually know what they suck 16:01:06 lots of rocks and the occasional tourist, i think 16:04:03 :P 16:10:11 googling for natural hoover gives a page about tornados http://82sluggowin.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/if-you-cannot-find-shelter-lay-face-down-in-a-ditch-and-cover-your-head-with-your-hands/ 16:13:01 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:18:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 16:22:37 -!- cpressey has joined. 16:27:34 I'm an idiot. Here I am going through all these contortions to find heirloom AmigaOS API header files, when if all I'm going to do is compile ANSI C sources on the platform, I shouldn't need them! 16:28:01 HOLY SHIT TORNADO WARNING! 16:28:17 that would make an awesome meme 16:29:30 -!- Flonk has joined. 16:31:26 -!- madbrain2 has joined. 16:32:53 -!- distant_figure has joined. 16:39:44 -!- lament has joined. 16:43:40 * pikhq mutters 16:44:18 wat 16:44:20 oklopol: BTW: good work on learning hiragana before the class starts. That alone gets rid of most of the egregious pronunciation errors. 16:44:26 alise: Sick is all. 16:45:23 * pikhq hates how some courses use nothing but rômasì. 16:45:35 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:46:32 is s pronounced as English j? 16:46:41 or like sh, or? 16:47:22 alise: The ` diacritic notes that the "si" mora is voiced. And because the "si" mora is pronounced more like "shi", the voiced version is more like "ji". 16:47:59 "Jit," said Shon. 16:48:05 alise: This is, of course, all in non-standard romanisation. One which follows Japanese orthography a bit closer than is needed. :P 16:48:54 (among other things, it makes conjugations and common pronunciation changes in words significantly easier than standard romanisation schemes.) 16:49:20 (... At the expense of being completely unuseful to the unwashed masses) 16:51:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:51:44 pikhq: ROMANISE THIS: ドット新死エディション 16:52:19 alise: Tò'to sinn si etèīsiȳonn 16:52:36 Why do the _'d letters show as sans here >_< 16:52:38 Stupid font 16:52:47 (And bigger too) 16:52:55 *(And bigger, too) 17:00:34 totto new death edition? 17:01:02 As much as I love C, its structures suck. 17:01:02 madbrain2: "Dot -- Super Death Edition". 17:01:20 Hey, wait, I've got compose. 17:01:29 "Dot — Super Death Edition" 17:01:47 shows as a box 17:02:02 madbrain2: You fail at Unicode. 17:02:09 Can't even display English text. 17:02:58 Wait... 17:03:13 “Dot — Super Death Edition” 17:03:14 There we go. 17:03:36 3 boxes now 17:03:49 what symbols are you using? 17:04:57 Right quotation mark, em dash, left quotation mark. 17:05:47 Dude, even *I* can see *em dashes*. 17:06:04 Although, L and R quotation marks look the same to me :/ 17:06:15 cpressey: That's just a font matter. 17:07:23 good old fixedsys 17:07:29 -!- nooga has joined. 17:07:36 madbrain2: ouch 17:07:42 memories 17:09:34 madbrain2: Make it stop. 17:13:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:13:33 madbrain2: die 17:14:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:16:41 W00T 17:16:51 I just build 'cat' under AmigaOS 1.3 17:16:55 *built 17:17:26 (I needed to build a fully profiled version because I haven't yet found a non-profiling-enabled amiga13.lib) 17:17:48 what's wrong with fixedsys? 17:18:18 It's like twice as good as any version of courier new 17:18:34 yeah that's ... not saying ... much ... ... anything ... 17:20:25 consolas <3 17:21:19 oklopol: might be an interesting choice yeah 17:23:17 oklopol: do you still have everything in that theme 17:23:22 white on black consolas 17:23:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:23:55 no. computer broked so it went as i mentioned. 17:24:01 -!- kareem has joined. 17:24:25 oklopol: i was just hoping the timeline was restored :'( 17:24:36 hi 17:24:45 hi. 17:24:59 how r u 17:25:07 so alise did you get those new wishing stones and witch wands we were talking about for our esoterica evening 17:25:16 ABSOLUTELY 17:25:21 I sacrificed ALL the goats. 17:25:25 All of them. Every single one. 17:25:31 ehm 17:25:32 kareem: in case you can't tell, we're talking about programming. hello. 17:25:43 ...didn't we talk about doing that TOGETHER 17:26:07 I thought you were going to find the holy human sacrifice... 17:26:38 -!- kareem has left (?). 17:34:09 Drat, I didn't even get a chance to tell him that DICE isn't handling the insanity that is RUBE.c very well 17:35:06 Oh! GURU 17:36:18 alise, what if you scared off someone who _was_ interested in esoteric programming languages? 17:36:24 Actually, I should blame oklopol 17:36:41 we have too many people here already 17:36:56 someone should be banned 17:36:58 imo 17:36:58 Sgeo_: who cares 17:37:22 yes let's ban oklopol 17:37:41 that would teach me to speak crapshit 17:37:55 From somewhere, don't remember where: "Of course non-English speakers often want special characters. The problem is there are too many of them (characters, not non-English speakers)." 17:39:48 fizzie: There's plenty of special characters in English, you naïve fool. 17:40:32 But do English speakers really *want* them? 17:41:19 Some do. 17:41:43 Define "special" 17:42:42 IIRC, in the context of the original quote "special" would mean "non-ASCII"; but really, I don't remember where it was from. 17:45:58 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:48:53 The café was staffed by naïve fools; I had no hope of gaining their coöperation. 17:53:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:53:59 Once again, I am an idiot. "Note that you may compile 1.3 programs with the 2.0 amiga.lib as long as you avoid 2.0-specific calls." 17:54:06 Once again, I am an idiot. "Note that you may compile 1.3 programs with the 2.0 amiga.lib as long as you avoid 2.0-specific calls." 17:54:27 And an idiot a third time for repeating myself. 17:56:53 Alas. Dice is still generating assembly which it cannot itself assemble. 18:06:03 hm the signal value in dBm for wlan networks is always negative isn't it? 18:06:21 like: -60 dBm or similar 18:07:52 so why did it claim 4dBm for one network in the list of networks... in iwlist scanning output that is. Presumably a fluke since doing a second scan showed a more usual value 18:08:33 Wikipedia's helpful table has "-10 to -30 dBm" as a typical maximum for wifi. 0 dBm would mean 1 mW of power; the same table lists that as the typical power of Bluetooth radio at 1 m distance. 18:08:55 fizzie, well, doing a second scan had it at -88 dBm 18:08:57 (well, bef.c and maentw.c-with-tweaks compile, but that's not much of a joy since they were originally developed under dice) 18:09:31 fizzie, 4 dBm seems rather unlikely 18:10:38 It does, especially if it's at -88 dBm "normally". 18:12:29 ah yes, the noise ratio seems strange too, was at -40 dBm at that point, which is odd, since my card doesn't report the noise... 18:12:48 (it always report -127 dBm for the noise) 18:12:53 (except here it seems) 18:13:36 w00t, sally2c compiles! Getting it to run, and seeing if the code it generates compiles too, is another matter... 18:13:50 cpressey, is sally some esolang? 18:14:15 No, no. God forbid I be on-topic here. 18:14:23 cpressey, XD 18:14:30 cpressey, so what is sally2c then 18:14:56 It's a compiler for a language I designed in the late 90's 18:15:05 cpressey, you designed a non-esolang? 18:15:36 -_- 18:16:04 oh that about it not being an esolang was a joke then? 18:16:19 The phone's /proc/net/wireless lists -46 and -95 (presumably dBm) for "level" and "noise" when the phone's ~1.5 m from the wlan access point. 18:16:39 cpressey never meant any of his languages to be esolangs, they were just ahead of their time. that's why, this time, cpressey waited 20 years before making a compiler 18:16:50 *as 18:16:52 fizzie, too close will cause problems too iirc 18:17:05 fizzie, oh and, how good is the built in antenna? 18:17:20 well i guess it isn't exactly "late 2010's" yet but anyway 18:17:34 judging from the quality of wlan on other phones, it would be rather bad 18:17:37 so maybe cpressey is just one decade smarter than the rest of us 18:18:13 I design languages. Some of them are indisputably esoteric. Some of them are not indisputably so. 18:18:31 Vorpal: No clue, but from anecdotal evidence, I think it gets better wlan reception than my iBook. And definitely better than one PCMCIA wlan card, but then again that was one pretty horrible card. 18:18:32 I wrote the compiler for Sally back in the 90's too, but I'm only now trying to compile it for the Amiga. 18:18:53 fizzie, hm okay. 18:19:19 oklopol: Maybe I'm kind of like Sousa, who meant all of his marches to be romantic love songs, but they turned out to be... marches 18:19:23 -!- olsner has joined. 18:19:42 fizzie, not sure about ibooks but based on casual observation macbooks tend to have rather good built in wlan. Same for thinkpads as well. 18:20:56 cpressey: maybe he had never been in love 18:20:58 Sgeo_: Wait, does LambdaMOO have anything to do with functional programming? Or did they put "Lambda" in the name for no reason? 18:21:45 cpressey: But Sally is crap! 18:21:45 >_> 18:21:56 cpressey: Nothing to do with FP as far as I know. 18:22:01 It's been a while since I looked at the language. Not sure if you cna write map in it. It's much more like a .. Self thing than functional 18:22:07 prototype-based 18:22:32 LambdaMOO is a specific moo 18:22:34 not a language 18:25:25 alise: yeah yeah 18:25:54 alise: it's written in C, is my main constraint. Apparent rube.c is too complex to be compiled by dice. 18:26:25 Sgeo_: I figured it was a MOO, but thought maybe its scripting language was Lisp, or something 18:30:10 alise: Sally 2 will not be crap. OTOH, it will probably not be called Sally :/ 18:30:41 cpressey: X-D 18:32:55 cpressey, which platform was DICE for? 18:34:07 Vorpal: AmigaOS 18:34:15 ah 18:35:57 and sally2c runs and generates C code and dice can compile that code and the example programs run and I can compute factorial with it! So my nominal goal for the weekend of "compile one of my languages that wasn't developed on the Amiga, on an Amiga," has been completed 18:36:39 now back to Dot Action 2 18:37:33 alise: At level 18 or so. Need cheat code! Computer spontaneously shut down earlier. 18:37:48 sounds like a nice weekend goal 18:37:49 cpressey: http://jayisgames.com/archives/2007/04/dot_action_2.php#walkthrough 18:37:59 olsner: Dot Action 2 is a LIFE goal 18:38:11 alise: I meant the amiga one 18:38:22 I KNOW 18:39:43 alise: Shweet. 18:39:47 but, but ... then why did you sound like you didn't? 18:40:10 olsner: DOT ACTION 2 IS A SUPERIOR GOAL BECAUSE IT IS A LIFE GOAL NOT A WEEKEND GOAL 18:40:37 oh god i forgot stage 18 is horrible 18:41:07 Dude this shit is easy :| 18:41:15 I don't care about dot action 2, what is dot action 2 and why are you talking in all-caps? 18:41:39 olsner: Dot Action 2 is http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ and it is the only thing that matters. 18:42:35 * Sgeo_ pushes alise onto a yellow dot 18:42:37 It is a simple game: collect the blue dots by running with the arrow keys and jumping with space. The yellow/orange dots kill you unless you get a red dot, which lasts until the ZET timer runs out. The green dot flips the entire playfield upside-down. Grey blocks are water, and you can swim in them by jumping. 18:42:39 alise: Timing the spacebar in the 1-cell-deep water? Maybe for you! 18:42:42 If the time runs out, you lose. 18:42:52 If you fall down past the bottom of the level, you lose. 18:42:56 HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA GOOD LUCK SUCKER 18:43:06 cpressey: No timing required. 18:43:10 ok, I've loaded the page, so how do you start the game? 18:43:13 Beat you spacebar to death. 18:43:23 olsner: Press space in the Flash until you get to the level selection screen. 18:43:34 oooh, *space* 18:43:34 The number on the bottom is the NNN-NNN save code; use the second menu item to load this again. 18:43:37 (It changes each level.) 18:43:49 olsner: Enter pauses; you can continue or end the level. 18:43:54 And yes, it gets much, MUCH harder. 18:43:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:44:02 There are 100 levels and 8 further bonus levels. You will die. 18:44:18 Many, many times, you will die. 18:45:19 I am on to stage 66. There are many ahead of me, yet I am already nearly spent. 18:46:46 I almost got to the end of level 1 but then I fell through the gap in the floor, so I think I'll just give up here 18:47:03 ... 18:47:08 Many have said that. 18:47:12 You will be playing again soon. 18:47:33 how? I have forgotten the address 18:48:06 http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ 18:48:32 -!- jix has joined. 18:49:04 ideone.com has support for Factor. It also hasn support for Falcon 18:49:34 Sgeo_: Clearly we need a "Falctorn" 18:49:49 maybe a couple levs 18:50:09 oklopol: wat 18:52:44 There must be an implementation of Falctorn which runs on the BBC Micro, because "Acorn" is also embedded in that word. 18:54:12 Actually I've never played with any of that RISC OS stuff. 18:54:46 Acorn has nothing to do with the BBC Micro... 18:54:49 * Phantom_Hoover really ought to find out what Factor is 18:55:00 They *made* the BBC Micro. 18:55:23 Oh, they did? Okay. 18:56:07 Phantom_Hoover: Factor is to Forth as Haskell is to Lisp. Except, I'm lying. 18:56:16 Your ignorance makes Chris Curry cry. 18:57:38 *Chris* Curry? 18:57:59 * Phantom_Hoover really really hopes that was his name 18:58:05 Any relation to Haskell, I wonder 18:58:25 Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia seems to think it was 18:58:32 is 18:58:53 Good. 18:59:25 * Sgeo_ thought it was Haskell Curry for some reason >.> 18:59:52 Oh, two people sharing the same name 18:59:53 Ok 19:00:03 HOW DARE THEY 19:00:49 haskell is named after haskell curry, obviously 19:00:54 19:00:56 alise: Are you still pro-picoLisp? (Because I can't think for myself, and I need to know if a language has the Alise Stamp of Doesn't-Entirely-Suck before I start bothering with it) 19:01:24 cpressey: It's certainly interesting. Read the wiki; all of it. http://www.picolisp.org/5000/-2.html (It's not very big.) 19:01:26 Two people sharing a surname? UNHEARD OF 19:01:42 Elite used two display modes at once. 19:01:44 This makes it awesome. 19:02:03 cpressey: The front page, http://software-lab.de/radical.pdf, "Articles & Essays", a lot of the documentation, and the part of the book that has been written are all interesting. 19:02:17 Actually, Elite in general is awesome. 19:02:21 cpressey: And this forum post: http://www.picolisp.org/5000/-2-L.html 19:02:25 what languages do fall into alise's entirely-suck category? 19:02:33 C++? 19:02:36 ais523: Hmm... PHP. 19:02:39 D? 19:02:41 I can guess a few, but there are probably more 19:02:42 Phantom_Hoover: C++ has a shred of C in it, so it can't fall entirely there 19:02:47 ais523: ooh, do guess! 19:02:54 Java? 19:02:55 I'm always interested in meeting the little version of me people have in their heads. 19:02:56 I was going to put LOLCODE up there 19:03:02 well, down there 19:03:03 Definitely. 19:03:09 Actually, LOLCODE is a great language if you replace the syntax with regular keywords. 19:03:11 Seriously. I tried it once. 19:03:20 yep, I've heard some people saying that it's a decent lang in a bad syntax 19:03:35 isn't it rather similar to Lua, if you don't take the syntax into account? 19:04:14 um, maybe 19:04:16 it has types and stuff 19:04:18 (although not static) 19:04:24 it's relatively unique in its oddness 19:04:27 especially its loop construct 19:04:35 ais523: and its conditionals; "if" looks at an implicit variable 19:04:38 so you do things like 19:04:40 So you really hate PHP and that's it. 19:04:46 foo == "bar", if 19:04:47 ... 19:04:47 else 19:04:48 ... 19:04:49 endif 19:05:09 hmm, a sort of "discarded result of last expression" variable? 19:05:11 alise: C++ entirely sucks. Sorry. 19:05:27 C cannot survive that kind of pollution. 19:05:52 alise, any others? 19:06:26 I don't know enough about D to say. 19:06:52 Phantom_Hoover: I'm guessing Plain English 19:06:57 But perhaps that was obvious 19:07:16 And what is that one that's like the name of a greek god or something but misspelled? 19:07:26 Nemerle? 19:07:33 I want to say, like, MINURVA 19:07:41 (I know, Roman, not Greek :/) 19:07:47 JOOPITER 19:07:48 Not Nemerle 19:07:58 alise: are you happy now, i'm hooked 19:08:00 'tis misspelt. 19:08:07 " oklopol: wat" <<< dot 19:08:47 30 levels passed or something 19:09:58 Phantom_Hoover: It was designed by an economist to do economics math and stuff 19:10:09 R? 19:10:11 <3 United DJs vs Pandora 19:10:20 * Phantom_Hoover decides to list Greek gods 19:10:23 No, R looks OK by comparison. This was BancStar-level 19:10:33 * Phantom_Hoover → food 19:10:34 oklopol: yay you are addicted again 19:10:34 And I'm thinking it's probably not a Greek god :/ 19:10:51 hmm, a sort of "discarded result of last expression" variable? ;; something like that 19:11:17 ais523: i think only conditionals assigned it 19:11:18 not sure 19:11:32 Phantom_Hoover, alise: The author used it personally for a long time, described it as "mature" so he decided to make it public 19:11:41 alise: like a flag variable in asm, then? 19:11:42 link? 19:11:44 alise: You introduced me to it 19:12:19 I've only had tangential experience with it, but STATA is somewhere between C++ and BANCStar on the scale of awfulness 19:12:25 cpressey: I did? 19:12:32 made worse by the fact that it's actually used seriously 19:12:45 imagine a lang which not only has Mathematica syndrome, but no redeeming features whatsoever 19:13:01 (for instance, arrays are implemented by dynamically generating variable names at runtime and using eval) 19:13:16 alise: Yes, I'm pretty sure you gave me the link, months ago 19:13:24 cpressey: describe it more 19:13:27 I might actually have it bookmarked, at work 19:14:09 alise: OK, designed by an economist, for his personal use doing economist-type math, extrEEEMELY horrible syntax, name is a misspelled version of some english word or name 19:14:42 cpressey: what kind of site did it have? 19:14:57 alise: Plain HTML I think, in the UK I think 19:15:05 cpressey: OH! 19:15:07 ais523: It's that one! 19:15:10 With the bunch of characters 19:15:11 postfix 19:15:15 mixed with others 19:15:16 Ursala! 19:15:17 Sounds familiar, yes 19:15:18 YES 19:15:20 http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/ 19:15:21 Ursala! 19:15:22 aha, yes Ursala 19:15:34 I don't think it's completely devoid of bad ideas, though 19:15:37 Uhh, a misspelled Disney antagonist, then. 19:15:45 :-P 19:15:46 it's more like C++; there are good ideas in there somewhere, but buried too deeply to actually by useful 19:16:57 Yes, there doesn't appear to be a Greek goddess named Ursula, at least not one of note 19:18:09 http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/queen.fun 19:19:08 Good ideas buried under something that matches Befunge and False for readability 19:19:35 Outstrips, really, not matches 19:19:37 isn't "ursula" latin for "little bear"? 19:19:45 ais523: Yes 19:20:16 I'm going to go read up on D'ni history 19:20:47 Why does the real world hold no interest for me? 19:21:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:21:34 sgeo: not intellectual enough? 19:21:46 Hehe 19:22:09 I think, as far as science goes, all new real-world science is inaccessible to people without insane equipment 19:22:23 However, in Second Life, I can perform experiments to my heart's desire 19:22:25 For example 19:22:29 well, we did the easy science first of course :D 19:22:55 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life 19:23:05 I find something about this site disturbing 19:24:08 It's such an uncreative use of time 19:24:32 And the result is a massive "cookbook" 19:24:35 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Create_a_two-dimensional_array_at_runtime 19:25:30 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Apply_a_callback_to_an_array 19:25:36 Why do they call it a "callback"? 19:25:45 That's not what I think of when I see "callback" 19:27:55 awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}' 19:28:01 Yeah that's not a callback. 19:28:10 !awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}' 19:28:32 HackEgo: ping 19:28:41 !echo 'hi' 19:28:47 'hi' 19:28:52 !awk -h 19:28:58 Doesn't HackEgo run with the backtick? 19:29:05 Oh 19:29:07 Duh 19:29:10 `awk -h 19:29:22 No output. 19:29:29 `awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}' 19:29:31 No output. 19:29:38 `which awk 19:29:40 /usr/bin/awk 19:30:22 awk: line 2: function psqr never defined 19:30:23 :/ 19:32:16 `run awk 'function psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}' 2>&1 19:32:18 1 1 \ 2 4 \ 3 9 \ 4 16 \ 5 25 19:32:49 Anyhow, `run with 2>&1 is a good combination for error messages. 19:33:21 Also "function", but maybe the submitters awk is less picky. 19:34:56 Yes. mawk no like 'func'. 19:35:15 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the Rosetta people are calling callback 19:35:21 *s 19:36:32 Bah, why do OISCs suck? 19:38:45 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:38:49 they're not neat enough? 19:40:22 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:40:55 Anonymous functions? Are these people completely insane? 19:41:11 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:43:49 well, is there a variant of combinator calculus that only needs one combinator? 19:43:59 Kind of. 19:44:17 Iota and Jot both have a single combinator. 19:45:03 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:45:16 yes. 19:45:29 although no such /supercombinator/ calculus 19:45:39 there is also a two-combinator calculus that does not require parentheses, ever, iirc 19:45:42 Supercombinator? 19:45:43 (in normal application order) 19:45:48 Phantom_Hoover: a lambda with no lambdas inside 19:46:07 SKI, BCKW, etc. are all supercombinators. 19:46:11 Iota isn't 19:46:13 *isn't. 19:48:45 BCKW? 19:49:03 well, one combinator with different appication trees, or two combinators sounds like the minimum 19:49:20 you can't beat that 19:49:44 picolisp seems pretty decent, but it's a bit surprising to see that the size of its executable is larger than lua5's by like 150% 19:50:07 No, badly worded. Its executable is 150% the size of lua5's. 19:51:57 -!- Jora has joined. 19:52:05 cpressey, libraries? 19:52:50 hammed in 19:52:50 Phantom_Hoover: The included database might be a large chunk of it, yes, 19:52:58 cpressey: even the 64 version? 19:53:00 that's written in assembly 19:53:04 -!- Jora has left (?). 19:53:04 and yes, the database 19:53:07 + web server 19:53:34 No 64-bit arch here to try that on, unfortunately 19:53:54 No, I mean wouldn't Lua have lots of stuff in libraries outside the executable. 19:54:27 Phantom_Hoover: Not normally, but you're right that Ubuntu packagers might have decided to do that 19:54:56 But apparently they did not 19:58:51 -!- augur has joined. 20:05:03 -!- Killerkid has joined. 20:10:48 -!- cheater99 has joined. 20:12:33 squared 20:19:12 5 sq . 20:24:40 03:17:07 in my dream, alise and cpressey sent me a postcard that was an invite to come explore the "natural hoovers" of another universe (natural hoover being a technical term for an inverse volcano) 20:24:42 oh, so it worked!! 20:24:50 04:12:50 alise: i got 130 20:24:51 130 what 20:24:57 in the jumping game 20:25:19 you basically forced me to try it 20:25:45 falling tower 20:25:47 oh right 20:25:48 yeah 20:25:54 it's way too slippery 20:25:58 oklopol: what level are you on now? 20:26:11 58, but i'm taking a break, possibly quitting completely 20:26:19 have to get some reading done 20:27:35 i got badly stuck at a few levels, i dunno why but it was scary shit :( 20:29:45 oklopol: i'm on 66 dude 20:29:48 you're inferior. 20:29:50 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:30:35 -!- choochter has joined. 20:30:58 :P 20:31:05 oklopol: i'm not joking. loser 20:31:09 maybe later.................. 20:31:43 -!- cheater99 has joined. 20:32:00 oklopol: when did you get up to 58? 20:32:45 what do you mean 20:32:53 like when did you complete 57 20:32:57 i.e. how long have you been not-playing 20:33:06 oh, not for long i think 20:33:14 i think i stopped at 22:15 20:33:21 so i've been playing for ages 20:33:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:33:43 what time is it there now? 20:33:52 22:33 20:34:50 ha 20:34:59 you are a monster 20:35:13 ...i am ? :D 20:36:13 oklopol: i've been playing for days and days and i'm only up to 66 20:36:26 right, i've been playing for about an hour 20:36:33 or wait 20:36:37 oklopol: two hours and thirty-five minutues 20:36:39 *minutes 20:36:40 actually 20:36:42 i checked. 20:36:43 8| 20:36:45 (or thereabouts) 20:36:47 oh shit 20:36:51 oklopol: a friend is on 64, he's been playing for as long as me 20:37:06 lol 20:37:10 another is on 57, roughly the same amount of time (although less time spent playing) 20:37:11 well i've played it before 20:37:15 so have i dude 20:37:22 oh he's on 58 now 20:37:24 so maybe i should catch all of you 20:37:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:04 oklopol: become the first person to actually complete the damn thing 20:38:28 anyway even i think it's JUST TOO EASY (I'm also insane) so I'm going to make a clone except the levels are ridiculously hard 20:38:33 because i'm perverse. 20:42:39 58 is fun, first a few minutes of triviality, then one short hard part 20:43:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:44:12 yeah 20:44:17 that irritated me :P 20:44:31 60 is very hard 20:48:33 -!- iGO has joined. 20:51:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:53:19 And annoyed with all ROM management tools out there, I decided to replace them. With a small Tcl script. 20:53:31 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:53:44 (Tcl used because: I'm too lazy to rewrite a CSV parser, and I know how the one in Tcl works) 20:55:44 -!- cheater99 has joined. 20:55:58 oklopol: You're doing this thing again? After the last time you said it's no fun at all? 21:00:28 ...yes 21:04:00 -!- wareya_ has joined. 21:05:27 oklopol: what level now :D 21:06:22 i'm stuck at 60 :( 21:06:31 maybe my hands are getting old 21:06:47 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:07:18 -!- teuchter has joined. 21:07:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:09:38 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:09:54 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 21:10:16 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 21:10:34 -!- comex_ has joined. 21:10:38 oklopol, how old are they? 21:11:25 i think they are roughly as old as me 21:11:30 hmm 21:11:43 I gotta design an 8bit microprocessor 21:11:59 we all feel like that sometimes 21:12:01 and sometimes 21:12:02 oklopol, hm. Okay. At least they didn't sell you some old ones that passed the best before date while in storage then 21:12:04 (as in, 8 bit data bus) 21:12:04 we all feel like that 21:12:15 anyone has some design tips? 21:12:36 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 21:12:55 madbrain2, yes "while one instruction is enough, it will probably be quite painful to code for" 21:13:19 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:13:24 vorpal: eh, doesn't sound like something that would make a fast design 21:13:25 so there is an esotericness-usability tradeoff there 21:13:44 I'm going for usability 21:13:55 esotericness is going to be in the gfx and sfx hardware 21:13:59 cpu has to be nice 21:14:19 madbrain2, does it? 21:14:34 madbrain2, also sfx? 21:14:37 special effects? 21:14:38 designing a retro game system 21:14:40 sound 21:14:42 oh 21:15:02 suddenly this became way more boring to me 21:15:13 what do you mean boring? 21:15:49 madbrain2, at the word "game system" the idea became boring to me. I was thinking general purpose computer 21:15:59 and I was considering esoteric network interfaces 21:16:17 I suggest a tin-can modem 21:16:28 my OISC is getting even better 21:16:49 it's more like for coding crazy buzzy 2600 styled games 21:16:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 21:16:50 -!- choochter has quit (*.net *.split). 21:16:50 -!- Killerkid has quit (*.net *.split). 21:16:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (*.net *.split). 21:16:51 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 21:16:51 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split). 21:16:51 -!- Quadrescence has quit (*.net *.split). 21:16:52 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split). 21:16:57 basically a speaker, and a mic at each end. Then two tin cans and a string in between. For half-duplex communication 21:17:23 you could probably use something like the c64 tape system :D 21:17:30 just pulses of different length 21:17:31 hm 21:17:39 madbrain2, for the modem!? 21:17:54 dunno 21:18:03 actually I don't know anything about modem design 21:18:14 well, see my suggestion 21:18:24 then run SLIP or something over it 21:18:26 could be cool to have the sound hardware dual purpose as a modem 21:18:31 slip? 21:18:41 before ppp 21:18:49 ppp? 21:18:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLIP 21:18:58 madbrain2, ... have you never used a modem? 21:19:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-to-Point_Protocol 21:19:43 madbrain2, I can only assume you never used a dial-up 21:19:44 I'm most likely not going to touch any network protocol 21:20:01 madbrain2, why? that is way more fun than generic sound 21:20:09 I have used dial-up but I forgot most of that 21:20:22 sound is cool man 21:20:48 I'm trying to design a synthesis chip that's going to sound cool and unique 21:20:58 madbrain2, never used ADSL modem using PPPoE or PPPoA? Or tethering computer over 3G? 21:21:13 nops, cable internet 21:21:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:21:20 hm 21:21:36 I'm not too interested in networks honestly :D 21:21:55 madbrain2, why are you connected to one then? ;P 21:21:58 more like a sound and gfx guy 21:21:58 i'm stuck at 60 :( 21:21:59 maybe my hands are getting old 21:22:10 oklopol: did you remember to hit the ceiling before the long descent? 21:22:19 well, more like the network works kthnxbye :D 21:22:23 did you remember to hold left instead of ascending further when you pass the last white line? 21:22:34 madbrain2, I can't think of anything more painful to program than non-text based interfaces 21:22:45 well, malbolge probably 21:22:50 my OISC is getting even better ;; what is it like? 21:22:56 whereas if I can design a neat sound chip 21:22:58 but apart from that, doing something like SDL or GTK+ or whatever: painful 21:23:10 then I can make a composition tool and make neat chipmusic for it :D 21:23:25 Vorpal: SDL, painful? 21:23:33 you may want to consider that you're just a bad programmer 21:23:50 it's going to be more like DOS VGA programming than sdl really :D 21:23:55 alise, well yes, but I don't blame that on SDL. I just hate graphics programming in general 21:23:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:24:00 sure I can do it 21:24:02 -!- Killerkid has joined. 21:24:04 but I hate it 21:24:16 put data at memory address N to get color Y at pixel Z 21:24:17 etc 21:24:33 madbrain2, going to implement this in hardware? 21:24:43 emulator first 21:24:49 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 21:24:50 madbrain2, FPGA later? 21:24:52 yeah 21:24:53 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: gmote). 21:25:00 madbrain2, verilog or VHDL? 21:25:06 not sure yet 21:25:24 probably vhdl 21:26:15 mhm 21:26:25 I'd really go for an emulator mostly since that's what most people will end up seeing and using 21:26:28 -!- augur has joined. 21:26:35 but I want a design that can actually work irl 21:26:36 madbrain2, or do it in silicon with contemporary technology ;) 21:26:43 if you have some billions to spare that is 21:26:49 and that doesn't involve ridiculous parts 21:26:57 " oklopol: did you remember to hit the ceiling before the long descent?" <<< the fastest way is to just drop down, but yeah it's possible i usually do that part wrong, let's see 21:27:19 so I'm mostly designingg from DRAM specs 21:27:34 madbrain2, anyway this sound chip. I presume it won't be able to play back acoustic music 21:27:35 ? 21:27:41 without sounding horrible 21:27:49 8-bit classic dram designs, or 64-bit EDO designs are totally different 21:27:51 hmm 21:27:59 or maybe hitting ceiling is faster in this case too 21:28:13 oklopol: hitting ceiling is faster 21:28:19 you can get this by raping the spacebar a lot before dropping 21:28:22 vorpal: I'm not quite sure yet, I could make it sample based like the amiga and snes but that's a bit too easy 21:28:24 that pretty much guarantees a ceiling hit 21:28:33 also not very original 21:28:45 madbrain2: Vorpal hates you because it cannot play THE ONLY FORM OF MUSIC 21:28:51 there are some pretty good tools for that too 21:28:52 just noise! 21:28:52 alise, wrong 21:28:54 only form? 21:28:59 madbrain2: classical ofc 21:29:05 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 21:29:07 I like non-classical too 21:29:12 depends how you define classical :D 21:29:39 but yeah on really limited systems like NES, poppy 80s music tends to work a bit better 21:29:44 Classical music is all Greek to me. 21:29:47 [rimshot] 21:30:18 FM synthesis chips can do ok classical music 21:30:29 or sample based systems 21:31:26 madbrain2, well, I define classical to the the classical period. Which is hard to define in exact years. The borders to the baroque and the romantic periods are definitely fuzzy 21:31:59 oh 21:32:16 well, for video game music it tends to be more like romantic music 21:32:18 however wikipedia offers the suggestion "The dates of the Classical Period in Western music are generally accepted as being between 1750 to 1820." 21:32:28 which is reasonably accurate 21:32:39 just because violins are hard on synthesizers 21:33:01 madbrain2, violins is my favourite instrument. On second place is piano. 21:33:09 yeah 21:33:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:33:25 < Vorpal> madbrain2, I can't think of anything more painful to program than non-text based interfaces 21:33:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 21:33:31 Vorpal: You're weird 21:33:45 cpressey, Thanks. Aren't we all in here anyway. 21:33:56 on snes, actraiser 2 is the most "serious" orchestral soundtrack 21:34:02 madbrain2, I place organ, especially church organ, on last place. I strongly dislike that sound. 21:34:13 and even then it's sorta jumpy and romantic 21:34:36 distorted electric guitar is on the place above organ 21:34:50 madbrain2, I love the Zelda OOT music 21:34:55 it was *very* good 21:35:00 haven't played that one 21:35:07 madbrain2, n64 21:35:24 cpressey, Thanks. Aren't we all in here anyway. 21:35:27 Usually in an interesting way. 21:35:39 alise, and who are you to define interesting? 21:36:01 Who are you to define weird as something complementary? 21:36:02 most other orchestral soundtracks are classical/pop mixes 21:36:05 *complimentary? 21:36:33 < alise> you can get this by raping the spacebar a lot before dropping 21:36:40 alise, I didn't say that. I just said thanks. Implying I liked it 21:36:42 MY TERMINOLOGY IS ACCEPTABLE 21:36:51 like the final fantasy soundtracks 21:36:56 That sounds redundant, but technically it probably isn't. 21:37:05 What does? 21:37:11 but yeah snes sound ram is like 64k 21:37:32 and violins sound bad when you pitch them up or down 21:38:09 madbrain2, I prefer sampled to synthed when it comes to sound generation. 21:38:22 compared to, say, flutes, which come out relatively good 21:38:34 vorpal: yeah, that's normal I think 21:38:38 madbrain2, and violins have a pretty restricted range anyway. You want viola, cello and so on for other ranges 21:39:02 well, what I mean is that it's hard to pass off a G3 sample at G4 for instance 21:39:07 ah 21:39:27 where you could get away with only 1 or a few flute samples 21:40:01 madbrain2, well, to some extent. Not for a trained ear though. 21:40:07 and when you loop the flute sample it's less of a problem 21:40:32 alise: "raping the spacebar a lot" 21:40:36 vorpal: true, but what I mean is that it's less of a problem than other instruments 21:40:37 cpressey: ah. 21:40:42 like brass 21:40:45 or strings 21:41:24 like, you can compose music with a 2k flute sample and it won't sound ear raping and terrible 21:41:31 madbrain2, there is a reason I use huge soundfonts when playing MIDI. 70 MB or more isn't uncommon for good quality soundfonts 21:41:47 for piano alone that is :P 21:42:04 well, I'm mostly talking about really small settings with few channels :D 21:42:34 like orchestral soundtracks squeezed into 256k with 8 channels :D 21:42:41 bah! who needs more sounds than sin can produce! 21:42:55 madbrain2, I much prefer actually acoustically recorded music to even generated-with-samples though 21:43:11 sin can produce everything but you'd need hundreads of channels 21:43:30 vorpal: and with what orchestra am I going to record soundtracks eh? :D 21:43:45 madbrain2, for the violin family of instruments you can usually hear a difference. Especially if they start plucking the strings. 21:44:12 but yeah real orchestras sound better than fake ones. duh. 21:44:19 there are sooo many ways to play a violin. Try rendering anything by Paganini in midi. I doubt the result will be even passable 21:44:36 madbrain2, a piano is way easier. Much fewer variables that can change 21:45:01 well, just the fact that it is "solo violin" is already a really bad start 21:45:17 key, attack, time held down, release, which pedals are down. 21:45:20 That's about it I think 21:45:28 that's why soundtracks concentrate on the other instruments, that's the one that samples the worst 21:45:33 madbrain2: I can't wait to play this violin game on your esoputer. Wait, I'm lost. 21:45:40 piano works fine if you just sample every note 21:45:45 madbrain2, violin is the best instrument there is though 21:45:46 ie you got lots of space 21:45:55 then piano can sound pretty good yes 21:46:30 madbrain2, yes I have an electrical piano. It sounds good. Assuming I use my studio headphones rather than the built in speakers 21:46:32 vorpal: well, what's a good system when the soundtrack has to fit into like 250k max eh? :D 21:46:38 SQUARE WAVES WITH PULSE WIDTH SWEEP OR BUST 21:46:43 madbrain2, adding more memory :P 21:46:59 then the design is going to turn into a playstation 21:47:05 remember when I said 8 bits? :D 21:47:24 madbrain2, hm. Playstation is better though. Can use it for cracking MD5 too 21:48:11 it's like, I'm going for 8 bits here, not 32~64 bit systems, which are complicated to design 21:48:33 madbrain2, why not 16 bits? 21:48:42 maybe 16bits 21:48:51 madbrain2: OK, to like, answer your original question? I like the 6502. Design something like that. 21:49:09 madbrain2, I was coding for a 16-bit platform today. A lot nicer than 8 bits. With 8 bits for the address bus you need some sort of bank switching design 21:49:12 and it will be horrible 21:49:31 Vorpal: Wh... 8-bits usually have a 16-bit address bus. 21:49:34 well, by 8bits I mean 8 bit data bus 21:49:46 cpressey, hm 21:49:56 something like the z80 that has 8bit data bus with 16bit address registers 21:50:01 madbrain2, okay. RISC I presume? 21:50:11 I don't know of any real HW with an 8-bit address bus. Maybe "back in the day" when computers had names like SCA/MP 21:50:30 (And 6-bit bytes! :/ ) 21:50:31 the registers could be 32bits for all I care, but there's not too much point if you have to squeeze it through an 8 bit bus 21:50:32 cpressey, or EINAC! 21:50:48 no clue what it had 21:50:52 vorpal: risc or cisc 21:50:58 madbrain2, risc definitely 21:51:07 less of a pain in hardware 21:51:12 cisc might be faster 21:51:27 hm 21:51:49 risc makes sense in the 32bit generation stuff 21:51:50 madbrain2, risc and number the instructions in a way as to minimise gate count in instruction decoding and so on 21:52:18 like, if I had a 32bit bus I'd definitely try RISC 21:52:21 madbrain2, 16-bit RISC is often quite nice to use 21:52:55 madbrain2: What ISAs are you familiar with? 21:53:00 the problem with risc is that instruction is usually quite large 21:53:11 I'm not too much of an asm coder 21:53:28 madbrain2, Harward or von Neumann? 21:53:32 so mostly x86, looked a bit at ARM, z80... 21:53:43 Harvard* 21:54:10 Z80 is a great piece of hardware (easy to build a computer around) but I really don't like the instruction set. 21:54:14 madbrain2, hm. The 16-bit RISC I used recently had like 32 instructions 21:54:15 harvard is nice but you'd need like two mem/data busses 21:54:17 wait 21:54:21 31 I think 21:54:33 no FPU or MMU of course 21:54:43 vorpal: the instructions are 16bits each? 21:55:05 madbrain2, with arguments included yes iirc 21:55:25 remember that there's no data cache 21:55:35 madbrain2, nor on that thing. It's SoC. 21:55:54 so 16 bit instruction = have to wait for 16 bits of data from DRA 21:55:56 DRAM 21:56:09 hm maybe it has a cache, but I don't think so 21:56:18 madbrain2, not really an issue for my application though 21:56:34 that means register instructions will take 1 cycle, memory instructions 2 cycles 21:56:34 cpressey: Z80 feels a bit arbitrary to me. But I can't help liking the register pairing to form BC, DE, HL out of B, C, D, E, H, L. 21:56:35 which was controlling a robot 21:56:36 normally 21:56:48 heck it was waiting on sensors most time 21:57:01 and at 16 bits it will be similar in performance to a 286/386 or a 68k 21:57:01 most of the* 21:57:18 madbrain2, why not back it by fast memory? Like SRAM 21:57:53 SRAM is kindof like... you get not much memory 21:58:09 madbrain2, 2^16 gives 65536 bytes, which is 64 kiB unless I miscalculated. 21:58:23 even my pentium3 had more level 2 cache 21:58:29 and that would be SRAM 21:58:30 also it's not very "realistic" 21:58:34 fizzie: The pairing is a nice touch, I grant. 21:58:43 madbrain2, what isn't? 21:58:54 few systems are designed with SRAM 21:59:19 even for the GBA they had to relent and added 256k of DRAM (first designs only had 32k SRAM) 21:59:22 madbrain2, I'm saying it can't be too expensive! Even a pentium3 had more level 2 cache! 22:00:05 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator 22:00:08 what the hell am I reading 22:00:11 my pentium3 has 256k level 2 cache 22:00:31 sin can produce everything but you'd need hundreads of channels ;; the thousand-channel sin machine 22:00:36 i see no flaw in this plan 22:00:59 alise: It's like the OISC of sound synthesizers! 22:01:16 Nintendo DS, which admittedly isn't very retro at all, has 4 megs of slow-slow DRAM shared by the ARM7/ARM9 cores, and then about 64k of faster memory that can be mapped in various ways. 22:01:19 alise: there's a real 64 channel design that came out of atari :D 22:01:21 alise, sounds wonderful indeed. 22:01:37 hello 22:02:03 bsmntbombdood: hello. 22:02:05 fizzie, about as much RAM as my low end keypad nokia phone iirc 22:02:07 but yeah there's a couple of real synthesizers that have used sinewave based synthesis 22:02:17 (Also, the DS's sound chip can hardware-mix 32 sampled-audio channels at independent sampling rates. Though you'd run out of memory bandwidth if you wanted to keep all channels on with high sampling rates. 22:02:26 for the DRAM bit 22:02:27 fizzie: 16 channels 22:02:27 that is 22:03:11 madbrain2, you can't do saw-tooth with sine though afaik? 22:03:23 not sure why anyone would want saw-tooth to tell the truth 22:03:24 alise: I think this "sin"thesizer would be easier to do in software than in hardware... 22:03:26 it sounds horrible 22:03:26 vorpas: you can add sines together 22:03:33 to make a sawtooth 22:03:40 the more sines you add the closer it gets 22:03:48 madbrain2, hm. Perfectly saw tooth? 22:03:49 sine < saw < square 22:03:54 square <3 22:04:09 vorpal: a lot of common instruments are sortof dull-saw-wave-shaped 22:04:15 oklopol: square with pulse width sweep <3 <3 <3 22:04:26 vorpal: you'd have problems with gibbs phenomenon but yeah 22:04:33 at least audibly perfect 22:04:37 madbrain2, gibbs phenomenon ? 22:04:43 i don't know what that is, but <3 <3 <3 just to be on the safe side 22:04:51 wait 22:05:00 oklopol: eeeEEEEOOOoooowww 22:05:00 cpressey: hehe c64 power? :D 22:05:05 :P 22:05:13 I'm more of an FM nut though :D 22:05:16 madbrain2: none other! 22:05:27 madbrain2, phase modulated music. Has anyone made that? 22:05:58 vorpal: adlib and genesis use phase modulation synthesis 22:06:14 madbrain2, how does it sound? 22:06:53 vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sHqDIRdSw&feature=related 22:06:57 madbrain2, also hm, presumably you could do PWM too 22:07:02 as in Pulse Width 22:07:15 yeah pulse width is a classic but dunno 22:07:34 madbrain2, sine probably sounds best though 22:07:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:07:50 it has rather wide spectrum so it's kinda hard to mix 22:07:59 sine wave has the opposite problem :D 22:08:05 madbrain2, ? 22:08:21 pwm square wave has a really wide spectrum 22:08:26 hm 22:08:40 madbrain2, and sine? 22:08:55 sine has the most narrow spectrum since it's only 1 frequency :D 22:09:19 -!- rodgort has joined. 22:09:24 vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sHqDIRdSw&feature=related <-- horrible sound :P 22:09:42 yeah it's kinda canny 22:09:53 -!- alise_ has joined. 22:10:02 madbrain2, possible it might sound better on a crappier playback device than a SB Live 5.1 22:10:24 madbrain2, and with some cheaper headphones that professional studio monitoring ones 22:10:24 madbrain2: pwm square wave plus sine 22:10:26 done 22:10:50 madbrain2, since my setup doesn't hide any imperfections in the sound 22:11:53 vorpal: no it's really that the synth is pretty limited 22:11:57 madbrain2, I noticed that with cheaper equipment you can get away with more imperfections. Not just for sound, but in general. 22:12:10 so you haave to do nasty compromises 22:12:14 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:12:16 right 22:12:24 Squared sine. See, you've got a sine, and you've sort-of metaphysically got a square too. 22:12:39 OMG, I see why DICE C has so much trouble with RUBE. RUBE heavily uses #defines that expand into similar expressions, and DICE doesn't do any common subexpression elimination. 22:13:06 fizzie, what about generalised polygon? 22:13:27 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:13:48 cpressey, sounds crappy 22:13:49 vorpal: this is about the best "mixed" genesis game : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6HNLcl1dl0&feature=related 22:14:21 madbrain2, pretty limited still 22:15:06 well, composing for snes is easier yes :D 22:15:15 madbrain2, and what did it use? 22:15:26 I forgot what you said for it 22:15:52 If you're willing to cheat horribly on the SNES, you can just have your cartridge send a signal down the L and R audio pins. 22:16:06 (that's *analog* L and R audio.) 22:16:07 pikhq: really? 22:16:10 madbrain2: Yes. 22:16:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:16:22 that's cool though the snes chip is already not bad at all :D 22:16:44 Or if you're really crazy, you can just *barely* get the SNES to output 32 kHz PCM. 22:16:59 mostly you have to fit everything into 64k of sound ram but that's adpcm so it's like twice compressed compared to 8bit pcm 22:17:02 Without any addon chips. 22:17:06 pikhq, can it do anything else then? 22:17:11 apart from outputting sound 22:17:14 Vorpal: Yes. 22:17:19 32khz pcm is easy on snes 22:17:21 pikhq, ah 22:17:38 the problem is really that you're going to run out of sound ram really fast at 32khz :D 22:17:39 Vorpal: You see, the sound output is done on a completely seperate processor. 22:17:43 like, in 2 seconds 22:17:44 pikhq, but really, it had pins for analog audio to the cartridge? 22:17:53 madbrain2: 2 minutes on a 32 megabit cartridge. 22:17:56 Vorpal: Yes. 22:18:12 pikhq, huh, how many games made use of that? 22:18:20 vorpal: the japanese NES and MSX had that too and afaik they're the only systems where sound expansion chips were used 22:18:24 Vorpal: Super Gameboy. 22:18:35 pikhq, oh of course 22:18:38 In Japan, there was also the BSX extension. 22:18:43 BSX? 22:18:55 It was a hookup to a satellite modem. 22:19:11 ah 22:19:14 pikhq: that's if the game had no other data :D 22:19:21 madbrain2: Yes, yes it is. 22:19:29 also you could actually fit 4 minutes 22:19:59 madbrain2: Also, though not done on any actual physical carts, you *can* actually get up to 4 GB on there. 22:20:03 but it would be hard because streaming audio to the sound chip is kinda hard 22:20:04 pikhq, considering how much you could do in a cartridge I can't see why you would be limited to uncompressed PCM 22:20:30 vorpal: snes has ADPCM compression in hardware 22:20:35 ah nice 22:20:41 in fact you can't play NOT compressed pcm :D 22:20:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:20:53 madbrain2, how efficient is that compression? 22:21:08 you get 8bit quality audio for the price of 4.5bits 22:21:31 wait, is this BRR? 22:21:41 mostly it means your 64k of sound ram are more like ~120k 22:21:47 yes BRR 22:21:51 madbrain2, ah I was thinking of come reasonably high quality lossless compression, like wavpack, being unpacked by a co-processor on the cartridge 22:22:02 Vorpal: That's perfectly feasible. 22:22:22 vorpal: you'd have to fit it in the superfx2 chip I guess 22:22:22 Something similar was *actually done* for sprites on a couple of games. 22:22:33 err s/reasonably high quality lossless/reasonably high compression ratio lossless/ 22:22:39 madbrain2: Not necessarily. 22:22:40 a bit unclear there 22:22:48 madbrain2: You can literally stick just about anything on there. 22:22:50 the problem is that you'd have to compress the audio to ADPCM after decompressing it 22:23:07 You could attach a modern x86 PC to the SNES bus. 22:23:12 Directly. 22:23:14 madbrain2, just put a DSP in there that plays to the analogue audio pins? 22:23:25 vorpal: you could do that 22:23:31 *That* would be easy. 22:23:40 but you'd also run out of data on the cartridges 22:23:49 pikhq, depends on how many amps you could pull from the power pins 22:24:03 pikhq, you would presumably blow some fuse at some point 22:24:13 Vorpal: One could do something similar to the BSX. 22:24:15 good lossless compression schemes get you 50% compression on like stereo 16 bit 22:24:24 Namely, have external power. 22:24:27 pikhq, ah 22:24:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:24:32 pikhq, well that's cheating 22:24:38 madbrain2: Doing it modern-day would let you stick a freaking flash card to it. 22:24:42 madbrain2, 16-bit? bah 22:24:48 that's still ~88k of data per SECOND 22:25:07 that's more than the sound data of some games 22:25:08 madbrain2, just stick some NAND flash into there 22:25:37 no man, get the snes with a cd and play ramstein over your game 22:25:44 XD 22:25:46 madbrain2: The SNES-CD? 22:25:51 madbrain2, SNES CD? 22:25:57 they never did snes cd 22:25:57 oh that thing? 22:26:01 hm 22:26:10 madbrain2: Yes they did. They just didn't finish because contract fell through. 22:26:16 but tg16-cd games often play redbook audio for music 22:26:29 You've probably seen the public result of that, though. 22:26:32 The Playstation? 22:26:35 yeah yeah 22:27:02 pikhq, how much of the SNES could you bypass. I mean. Doing the entire game on the cartridge. Would that be possible? 22:27:07 though many psx games play some sort of compressed format 22:27:09 just putting the main CPU in an idle loop 22:27:11 or such 22:27:20 possibly after poking some hardware registers or such 22:27:21 from experience most playstation games actually use the sound chip instead of playing from the CD 22:27:28 well, most i've seen, anyway 22:27:35 greasemonkey: true 22:27:36 Vorpal: Yes, you indeed could. 22:27:42 Vorpal: Are you familiar with the Super Gameboy? 22:27:54 the die hard trilogy is an example of one which uses tracks on the CD 22:27:55 pikhq, yes, but I don't know if the main CPU is doing anything at all there or not 22:28:01 i believe tekken 2 also does it 22:28:06 Rather few PC games bother with CD audio, but some do use it. 22:28:10 or was it dragon ball z 22:28:18 it was one which was a copy of a game, anyway 22:28:18 pikhq, like shifting data to the display or whatever 22:28:18 Vorpal: It's displaying a framebuffer. 22:28:27 pikhq, ah, could you skip that too? 22:28:35 cd audio sorta became obsolete when games started streaming audio by themselves 22:28:42 Well, rather, it's displaying a few different sprites which *happen* to be the Super Gameboy's framebuffer. 22:28:42 especially mp3 or ogg audio 22:28:47 pikhq, also the SNES pin design must have needed some serious planning ahead! 22:28:56 i believe you could skip the entire NES if you ran from cartridge 22:29:08 at least ALMOST 22:29:14 maybe there's some paletting issues there 22:29:17 GreaseMonkey, NES or SNES? 22:29:20 NES 22:29:24 hm okay 22:29:27 what about SNES then? 22:29:29 you can't on the sega master system 22:29:33 not sure about SNES 22:29:40 Vorpal: The Super Gameboy is literally a Gameboy which uses the SNES for video and audio out and controller in. 22:29:50 pikhq, I know that 22:30:01 pikhq, but as you said, it still does the framebuffer bit 22:30:16 pikhq, I want to directly drive everything from the cartridge 22:30:48 just put a ntsc output on the cartridge 22:30:54 snes was 32mbit? 22:30:54 huh 22:30:55 and a power supply 22:30:59 and remove the snes 22:31:02 why bit :P 22:31:05 madbrain2, that would be cheating 22:31:17 dude you're already way cheating 22:31:19 madbrain2, external power supply I accept 22:31:27 the real thing they did with snes is use the snes sound chip 22:31:30 madbrain2, yes but cheating with specifc rules 22:31:37 alise_: Actually, that's just the largest official game release. 22:31:50 alise_: The ROM limit is actually 2^32-1 bytes. 22:31:52 because the sound chip was already better than what you'd probably come up with for game sound chips 22:32:07 some snes games are 4 megs yes 22:32:18 I think there's even a couple with 6 megs 22:32:33 Aaaand you could then start paging. 22:33:06 Vorpal: You couldn't *quite* do that. 22:33:11 snes address range is 24 bits no? 22:33:20 madbrain2: Oh, right, it is. Never mind. 22:33:29 yeah i was kinda thinking that 22:33:32 Vorpal: However, you could completely shut off the main CPU and use the on-cartridge CPU. 22:33:42 that's still 16 megs, more than any snes game 22:33:48 or indeed most n64 games :D 22:34:02 pikhq: yes, and you could also make a space invaders thing which could detect super gameboy and turn the damn thing back on 22:34:04 pikhq: I think snes DOOM does that 22:34:11 pikhq, hm 22:34:15 perfect dark is 32MB (n64) 22:34:23 Vorpal: Because the actual cartridge expansion chip hooks into the *main bus*. 22:34:26 Really. 22:34:31 I said most n64 games, not all :D 22:34:35 pikhq, nice! 22:34:35 i believe it uses some form of ADPCM for its samples 22:34:40 mario64 is 8bit 22:34:42 pikhq, but if the main cpu is running it takes over or? 22:34:45 uh 22:34:47 madbrain2, what? 22:34:51 mario64 is 8megs rather 22:34:55 sorry 22:34:55 right 22:34:57 Vorpal: If the main CPU is running then they run in tandem. 22:35:24 With communication between them going over a specific point in memory. 22:35:28 madbrain2, but it uses a lot of shading instead of textures, and where it uses textures they are simple. I'm not surprised 22:35:32 This is how all of the actual expansion chips on the SNES functioned. 22:35:39 madbrain2, zelda oot is 32 megabyte iirc? 22:35:57 24megs or something... I don't remember 22:36:16 ah maybe it was majora's mask that was 32 megabyte 22:36:29 pikhq, hm 22:36:34 but yeah psx games are huge compared to that 22:36:54 madbrain2, was psx same era or? 22:36:59 Vorpal: Yes. 22:36:59 yeah 22:37:05 right 22:37:11 actually psx came out before n64 22:37:34 from what I remember of psx and n64, psx had better hardware but worse games 22:37:44 psx had more data 22:37:50 because of CD 22:37:54 well yes 22:38:03 but gameplay wise I meant 22:38:03 but n64 had texture interpolation 22:38:16 DS game card connection is a boring bus with 8 bidirectional data bits, and no direct addressing (you have to send it commands); and I guess from the DSi onwards they dropped the GBA cart slot, which did have 24 address bits. No more memory add-ons, or other sort of funky tricks. (Though DSi upped the built-in RAM to 16 megs, so.) 22:38:19 madbrain2, texture interpolation... now what did that one do 22:38:20 Vorpal: Actually, the PSX had quite a few good games and a lot of shovelware. 22:38:28 yeah that's a real selling point with nintendo fans 22:38:30 pikhq, hm okay 22:38:36 mario 64, now with texture interpolation! 22:38:37 :) 22:38:39 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 22:38:47 also mario 22:38:51 myndzi, I have to say I much prefer zelda over mario 22:38:55 And the N64 had quite a few good games and not much shovelware. 22:38:58 vorpal: make the textures blurry instead of blocky 22:39:04 mario is in this game, this is a mario game 22:39:07 -!- teuchter has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:39:08 madbrain2, ah 22:39:20 zelda 64 was pretty cool 22:39:21 Amount of good games, about the same (though the N64 got royally screwed on JRPGs). Just better signal/noise ratio. 22:39:27 myndzi, which one? 22:39:34 myndzi, there were two 22:39:35 i believe the record for largest n64 ROM is 64MB, can't remember which it is 22:39:42 the first one, i never actually played most of these games 22:39:48 but i did see a number of them 22:39:53 myndzi, so oot then? 22:39:53 but yeah 22:39:57 guess so 22:39:59 ...our interwebs just lagged 22:40:05 mario64 is like a classic, classic piece of game design 22:40:07 i liked the targeting system 22:40:12 and the combat system 22:40:18 GreaseMonkey, iirc the leaked debug from for zelda oot master quest was 64 MB 22:40:21 though maybe it didn't translate well to the c ontroller, i am unsure haha 22:40:23 The N64 had some really stupid hardware limitations. 22:40:32 n64? 22:40:50 didn't it have some problems with... I think it was gfx cache or something like that 22:41:00 Such as having a single chunk of RAM that was high-latency. 22:41:03 pikhq, couldn't you put a co-processor on the cartridge for n6? 22:41:03 seeing as you guys are saying psx, i'm wondering if any of you knows where that abbreviation came from? 22:41:05 n64* 22:41:07 Vorpal: No. 22:41:14 i seem to recall opening files in a hex editor and psx was the header 22:41:15 pikhq, hm, why not? 22:41:17 oh, right 22:41:23 but that seems a strange reason for it to have become the common acronym 22:41:32 (though, in this channel, the opposite might be true ;) 22:41:35 probably because PS was kinda short 22:41:36 Vorpal: Nothing-but-ROM. 22:41:44 dunno where the X came from 22:41:44 but almost since the playstation was out i remember people calling it the psx 22:41:50 pikhq, how did it save games then? 22:42:04 Oh, right. You could have some writable RAM on there. 22:42:06 well, like i said, i am about 90% sure PSX was the file header for executables on the system 22:42:09 Fine. Nothing but memory. 22:42:18 like MZ (MZP) in an exe file 22:42:19 pikhq, so use that as a frame buffer! 22:42:26 ... 22:42:33 pikhq, that a chip on the cartridge draws to 22:42:39 *groan*someone actually did that 22:42:44 pikhq, really? 22:42:49 The "Wide-Boy 64". 22:43:00 myndzi: i interpreted that as "i am sure 90% of PSX was the file header" 22:43:24 It was a hand-built but actually sold Gameboy Color for the N64. 22:43:26 well, the jaguar was a single-piece-of-ram system too 22:43:40 GreaseMonkey: s/of/that/, but i guess they mean about the same thing 22:43:58 Erm, sorry. Not hand-built. 22:44:01 i meant as to how i initially interpreted 22:44:07 It was an official dev tool for the GBC. 22:44:11 as in "90% of the game image was the file header" 22:44:30 oh, haha 22:44:38 yeah, PSX games were super compact 22:44:44 who needs 700mb? 22:44:54 pikhq, hm... Good thing caching didn't mess up or such 22:45:12 Vorpal: 22:45:12 myndzi: well, you don't want to use 700mb cause it's going to take forever to load :D 22:45:15 Cache? What cache? 22:45:24 pikhq, well n64 could have that 22:45:27 I don't know 22:45:39 yeah from psx on they all have cache I think 22:45:40 pikhq, anyway, what was Wide-Boy 64? 22:45:41 It had high latency RAM and *no cache*. 22:45:47 could the CDs even READ 700MB? 22:45:49 Vorpal: GBC for the N64. 22:45:58 erm 22:46:00 pikhq, nintendo product? 22:46:02 Yes. 22:46:06 could the CDs even CONTAIN 700MB? 22:46:15 pikhq, okay h,m 22:46:17 hm* 22:46:18 Vorpal: Only available to developers, though. 22:46:21 normally they're 650m 22:46:30 pikhq, did the gamecube use cartridges to or? 22:46:32 I forgot 22:46:39 but I think dreamcast had haxxor cds that went up to like 700mb 22:46:41 pikhq, ... what was the point of that then? 22:46:41 the amusing thing about PSX and N64 is that they both contain the same family of processor 22:46:53 then again, so do the xbox 360 and the wii 22:47:04 and the ps3's processor is kinda related 22:47:16 Vorpal: ... Game Boy Color. 22:47:18 yeah ps3 is a power too no? 22:47:27 pikhq, um I didn't ask what it was 22:47:28 Not Game Cube, Game Boy Color. 22:47:36 (i mean the PSX and N64 have MIPS and those other 3 are PPCish) 22:47:41 Vorpal: What are you talking about the gamecube for, then? 22:47:44 pikhq, I asked *why only for developers* and I asked a question about gamecube 22:47:51 Oh, right. 22:47:53 pikhq, well I know Wii use cds 22:47:56 I dunno why it was only for developers. 22:48:04 pikhq, gamecube is in between n64 and wii 22:48:10 and I didn't remember what it used 22:48:12 And the Gamecube used a disc that was DVD-like. 22:48:29 yeah I think game cubes used something like mini DVDs 22:48:33 pikhq, so no funky cartridge processor then 22:48:33 aww 22:49:19 Huh. The Wii doesn't use DVDs. 22:49:35 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 22:49:42 It uses the same disc format as the Gamecube, but physically larger. 22:49:47 yep 22:49:51 isn't it fun 22:49:51 anyways, streaming audio doesn't really make sense unless you have tons of data 22:50:24 even now some devs use synthesized audio on iphones because of stuff like 10mb data limits 22:50:30 The "Nintendo Optical Disc" is physically a DVD, except recorded assuming constant angular velocity. 22:50:58 yeah, I think the xbox or xbox360 had a reverse DVD, too :D 22:51:04 (meaning the physical size of a bit varies depending on the distance from the center) 22:51:11 madbrain2: Nope, completely standard DVD drives. 22:51:17 like a DVD but the tracks go the opposite way 22:51:21 oh really? 22:51:22 anyways 22:51:25 The Xbox to the point of *literally* being purchased off the shelf. 22:51:40 They purchased normal IDE DVD drives and stuck them on there. 22:52:14 The "Nintendo Optical Disc" is physically a DVD, except recorded assuming constant angular velocity. 22:52:16 (meaning the physical size of a bit varies depending on the distance from the center) 22:52:21 wow xD 22:53:13 It's so close to a DVD that the WiiDrive is capable of DVD-reading with very slight modchippery, though. 22:53:22 No mod chips involved. 22:53:25 It requires some software. 22:53:56 Whoa! Got rube.c to compile in DICE by grinding its innards with a corkscrew. I think I introduced some bugs, but it does run. Pretty! 22:54:26 And we're still talking about vijiogame musics? 22:54:48 vorpal: anyways, the best synth chip used on video game systems is probably the roland mt-32 22:55:12 Ah, yes. The NOD also has a barcode burned onto it that the drive checks to try and avoid copied discs. 22:55:27 example of mt-32 audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y-ermSwasw 22:55:42 Oh, *groan* 22:55:55 They chose this odd-ass format to avoid licensing fees. 22:58:14 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:59:56 -!- cheater99 has joined. 23:00:27 aqwsdcfvgbqAWSDRFTGYHUJWASEDFGHJK';#WERTYUIOP[]ERDTFYGUHIOPQAWSEDRTFYGUHJAsdf`123456RETDFYGUHIJOKLPERDCFVGB N RF [P;OLI 23:01:59 alise_: I so want that to be an Ursala quine. 23:04:39 vorpal: but yeah the limitations I'm using are: 23:04:50 - NTSC output 23:04:54 alise_: OK, so fwiw: for my strictly typed rewriting language, the types would apply to the rules. (car (cons H T:list)) -> H, for example. 23:05:11 - dram has 6.25mhz access cycle 23:05:24 that means you can do 400 DRAM reads per scanline 23:05:45 but you have to share them between cpu and gfx 23:05:51 and sound if sound reads from RAM 23:15:49 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:16:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 23:17:21 -!- madbrain2 has joined. 23:24:18 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya. 23:33:18 When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C? 23:39:46 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:39:58 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:42:15 my OISC is getting even better 23:50:50 vorpal: anyways, the best synth chip used on video game systems is probably the roland mt-32 <--- why is that? 23:50:55 - NTSC output <-- UGH why? 23:50:59 madbrain2, what is wrong with PAL 23:51:09 or VGA 23:51:57 madbrain2, also how often does the DRAM need to be refreshed? 23:55:18 When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C? <-- hm... ages 23:56:48 Vorpal: Pity. 23:57:00 What's wrong with NTSC w.r.t. PAL then? A bit smaller amount of raster lines, but a bit higher framerate; it's not like the differences are huge. 23:57:34 I just managed to compile Lua 5.1.4 on AmigaOS 1.3! Problem is, I can't *link* it, because there are so many *.o files the shell complains "Command too long!" 2010-09-06: 00:02:04 Hah, @-arguments to the rescue 00:03:02 fizzie: A higher framerate means less time to compute enemy AI between frames! 00:09:12 -!- madbrain2 has quit. 00:14:24 Gak! What they don't tell you is that lines in an @-included file are limited to 254 characters! 00:14:31 Oh, the GOOD OLD DAYS, huh? 00:15:12 hi. 00:15:45 When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C? ;; never 00:16:24 - NTSC output <-- UGH why? 00:16:25 madbrain2, what is wrong with PAL 00:16:25 * pikhq declares that everyone sucks 00:16:40 you know, Vorpal, you're an idiot. 00:16:58 let's count the countries that use PAL 00:17:22 43, if I eyeballed it right 00:17:27 now let's count those that use NTSC 00:18:14 About the same, I'd guess. 00:18:19 more, actually 00:18:21 quite a bit more 00:18:23 alise_: JAPAN and CANADA, the COOL COUNTRIES. 00:18:35 at least 49 00:18:38 definitely more 00:18:42 just ambiguous how to count territories 00:18:45 Oh, fucking island countries near the US. 00:19:01 Vorpal: my point is: you're not defending against the Americanisation of all entities 00:19:10 you're just rabidly preferring anything that seems European to you, to anything American. 00:19:24 and don't whip out a technical argument, because it's blatantly obvious that wasn't the basis of your dispute. 00:19:48 And it's not even like one is strictly superior to the other. 00:19:55 indeed 00:19:59 There's upsides and downsides to both. 00:20:10 And they both suck compared to digital broadcasting standards. 00:20:15 NTSC is smoother with movement but less defined, PAL is less smooth with movement but better defined 00:20:26 PAL is probably best FOR LIVE-ACTION ENTERTAINMENT 00:20:44 as it has the same fps as movies, which creates a desirable motion blur effect, (and allows easier broadcast of movies) 00:20:46 and has higher definition 00:20:47 BUT 00:20:48 for games 00:20:50 NTSC seems preferable to me 00:20:54 alise_: No, it has 25 fps. Film has 24 fps. 00:20:56 because fast movement should be reproduced accurately 00:20:58 pikhq: oh, touche 00:20:59 well, whatever 00:21:02 it's the same vicinity 00:21:05 So, PAL has the film sped up. 00:21:06 so the same sort of motion blur 00:21:23 pikhq: or have horrible jerkiness 00:21:25 by replicating frames 00:21:38 the unnoticeable speed-up is better ofc :) 00:22:04 uorygl isn';t here o.O 00:22:57 alise_: It's noticeable in the audio. 00:23:22 pikhq: even if you correct for pitch? 00:23:29 Yes, but much less so. 00:23:35 I vastly prefer 30 fps for display of film over 25fps. 00:23:46 2:3 pulldown is quite nice. 00:24:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:24:32 (Every even film frame is displayed for 1 TV frame, every odd is displayed for 1.5 TV frames) 00:24:54 jilm 00:25:04 (... Thus getting you 24 fps on a 30 fps display.) 00:25:39 Looks like all I have to do it stub out 12 POSIX-ish C functions that DICE don't got, and I'm in business with a only-slightly-crippled-you'd-never-know-it Lua interpreter. 00:26:02 *Also*, this is easily reversed by devices that can display 24 fps better than that. 00:27:08 pikhq: no, pulldown is UNACCEPTABLE 00:27:17 have you ever seen panning with pulldown? 00:27:22 or any fast movement? 00:27:25 it's the jerkiest, most retarded thing ever 00:27:26 but panning is the worst 00:27:33 forwards and AH and fowards and AH 00:27:33 IN MY WORLD, SINH OF EVERYTHING IS ZERO 00:27:40 alise_: Have you seen it on a 30fps display? 00:27:44 It's really not noticable. 00:27:47 cpressey: SOUNDS GOOD. 00:27:59 pikhq: To be honest, I have never seen a 30fps display in my life, as far as I am aware. 00:28:23 Well, maybe CRTs could do it. 00:29:27 Anyways, all this is somewhat irrelevant, since modern TV equipment can handle 24 fps. 00:29:50 Actually I might need to implement some of these... :/ memchr? 00:30:58 cpressey: PDCLib. 00:31:14 cpressey: http://pdclib.rootdirectory.de/ 00:31:25 cpressey: You write a header file and get a C99-compliant library. Well, in theory. 00:31:33 alise_: Much obliged. 00:31:34 It doesn't actually have yet. 00:31:42 cpressey: But you can rip out the parts you're missing, I'm sure. 00:31:51 Hrm. Well, 25 fps stuff still can't, because having refresh rates high enough to handle native 25 fps video and 24 fps video without modifying stuff is not yet feasible. 00:32:10 30 fps stuff, though? Yeah, just have a 120 Hz refresh rate & voila. 00:32:38 cpressey: Failing that, try newlib. 00:33:28 pikhq: I SEE NO REASON WE CAN'T HAVE 600 HZ TELEVISIONS 00:34:00 Of course, if you're willing to go for a CRT screen, it's all pretty easy. 00:34:22 Mmmm, multiple possible refresh rates. 00:34:39 I loved having a CRT because I put the resolution up to 1280x1024 or something on a really shitty 17" Compaq CRT. It was so, SO flickery and so, SO blurry, but it was MOAR RESOLUTION DAMMIT. 00:34:45 Reading UI text was a bit hard at first. 00:34:52 I was young and stupid... 00:34:57 ...now I'm just young. 00:34:58 Hah. 00:35:03 ... and stupid. 00:35:21 pikhq: I had to use PowerStrip (Windows monitor tweaking program) just to get that resolution. 00:35:31 Windows sanely ended its resolution list a few places below that on the grounds that I'm fucking crazy. 00:35:40 Hey, so, why don't more language implementations ship with regression test suites anyway? 00:36:42 "I was young and stupid, now I'm young and stupid and blind!" 00:39:13 Uh, I am actually blind. 00:40:08 alise_: You play Dot Action 2 remarkably well, then. 00:40:36 Braille display + playing by ear. 00:41:40 cpressey: NOTE: BLATANT LIES 00:41:57 (Astonishing!) 00:43:57 My phone falls two feet, and the battery cover is gone 00:43:58 WTF 00:44:02 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:44:37 *groan* 00:44:40 Yup, Palin's running for Pres. in 2012. 00:45:07 * Sgeo_ might switch party to Republican just to vote against her 00:45:25 Unless she's running against Huckabee 00:45:27 *sigh* Fecking primary system. 00:45:28 pikhq: Ha. 00:45:28 Bit of a hard choice, then 00:45:32 Sgeo_: *facepalm* 00:45:50 Write in Jesus; Diebold might think it's a good idea and we can all have some fun. 00:45:51 WHAAAAAT wait that's not surprising, only disappointing 00:45:58 SORRY, "PREMIER ELECTION SOLUTIONS" 00:46:06 NOT DIEBOLD REALLY NOT DIEBOLD PLEASE IGNORE THE DIEBOLD BEHIND THE CURTAIN. 00:46:33 pikhq, if you had to choose: Huckabee, or Palin? 00:46:44 Sgeo_: I shall only answer that in song. 00:47:10 *singing* Suicide is painless, it brings so many changes, and I can take or leave it as I please. 00:48:03 Maybe Palin... there's a chance she might quit halfway in her first term 00:51:13 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:53:42 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:57:22 If you have look at esolang wiki recently, you might wonder why I created those templates. Hopefully you figure it out. 01:10:38 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:10:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:14:53 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:18:13 idea: Democratic Topic Nazi Bot: If anyone attempt to change the topic of the channel, it changes it back immdiately. You can submit a topic change to the bot, but it only accepts it once a majority of users in the channel have approved it. 01:18:20 *attempts 01:19:08 cpressey: Better idea: optbot, which set the topic to "logurl | random unattributed line from the entire channel logs". 01:19:14 It also quoted one at you if you highlighted it. 01:19:18 I created it. 01:19:27 (This inspired fungot's rather more involved Markov babble.) 01:19:27 alise_: yes there's a lot more 01:19:34 cpressey: It set it every few hours or something. 01:19:39 A lot of fun. 01:19:41 I should revive it. 01:20:03 alise_: :P 01:20:16 zzo38: please don't spam templates like that 01:20:20 even if it's for a reason, Graue will get angry 01:20:43 and we all suffer :-P 01:23:02 Why will Graue get angry? 01:23:07 Can't they ask at first? 01:23:20 -!- ski has joined. 01:24:04 -!- SimonRC has joined. 01:25:15 Someone else (Elliott) was trying to build the SKI calculus into MediaWiki, using also template namespace 01:25:52 Did you notice the Cn template links to xkcd? 01:29:40 zzo38: I used the user namespace, didn't I? 01:30:03 I was joking about the Graue thing anyway 01:30:07 alise_: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=10 01:30:20 I stand thoroughly corrected. Carry on! 01:30:38 The SKI calculus didn't work, btw. 01:30:41 It's specifically designed not to. 01:30:46 (The templating engine) 01:32:07 -!- augur has joined. 01:32:27 The templating engine is specifically designed not to be Turing complete? 01:34:59 That would make sense to me. Who wants non-terminating templates? 01:37:19 btw, fungot has displayed some freakishly relevant responses recently. 01:37:19 cpressey: yeah i don't think i'd do it on a computer though i can't read on a computer 01:40:32 cpressey: optbot demonstrated remarkable sentience and malevolence on occasion. 01:53:07 The name's Moniker. Sobriquet Y. Moniker. The "Y" stands for Yclept. 01:58:57 wat. 02:01:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:03:55 http://i.imgur.com/6NS0M.png 02:04:50 I mentioned this port in #lua and someone accused me of wasting time I could spend working on *their* project, or alternately, the cure for cancer 02:06:21 cpressey: what was their project? 02:06:27 alise_: They haven't said 02:06:30 who was it? 02:06:37 (I won't maul them. probably) 02:06:44 cpressey: also, put that thing in fucking doubling mode, not interlace argh my eyes 02:06:45 Yeah probably 02:06:56 Good idea 02:06:58 ... and change your window title font, now 02:07:42 WAH much better 02:07:55 Hm 02:08:38 Seriously why are you using that font. 02:08:55 "Purisa Medium" -- I wonder if I selected that? If so -- what was I thinking? 02:14:10 Also why are my FireFox fonts messed up? Happened after my system spontaneously reset this morning. Every page looks like the Roman character part of ShiftJIS pages 02:20:27 Take a look at your preferences. 02:20:31 The default fonts in particular. 02:20:34 Failing that, open a terminal, 02:20:38 $ sudo fc-cache -f -v 02:23:13 was changed to an ugly font called "serif" for some reason -- changed it to FreeSerif and it's not near as bad -- thx 02:27:58 SIOD back in the Amiga daze stood for "Scheme In One Defun". 02:28:15 I assume this transitioned to "Day", then to "48 hours" 02:28:40 Then to R6RS and then to not caring about Scheme. So it goes! 02:28:49 * cpressey pulls out a yo-yo 02:31:40 * cpressey is tempted to write a Pixley interpreter in C 02:32:06 Pixley? 02:32:31 http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/ 02:32:37 I design too many language 02:32:41 *languages. 02:33:06 cpressey: You do. 02:33:07 This is hardly a design, though. 02:33:15 Just a chipping away at something else. 02:33:47 oh, meh 02:34:34 pikhq: I should probably find something else to do with my time. Dot Action 2, or curing cancer, or just talking about random shit on IRC. 02:34:46 You could learn a language. 02:34:47 Oh, have I mentioned, I love Portishead? 02:34:49 (spoken) 02:35:07 pikhq: Hm. I could. I've never been very good at those. 02:35:33 Or (for amusement) you could learn Written Chinese without learning a spoken Sinitic language. 02:36:22 * coppro moves in tomorrow 02:37:28 SIOD back in the Amiga daze stood for "Scheme In One Defun". ;; 02:37:30 er 02:37:31 I assume this transitioned to "Day", then to "48 hours" 02:37:36 scheme in one defun still exists 02:37:43 48 hours is unrelated afaik 02:37:49 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/imp/siod.html 02:37:56 alise_: Oh? Interesting 02:38:25 Oh, have I mentioned, I love Portishead? ;; I have Third but have never listened to it and probably never will; I swear it was released slowed down 1000%. 02:38:42 I mean, yeah, I know trip hop does that shit, but seriously, guys? Seriously? 02:39:18 alise_: A younger me would have hated them. Tastes change I guess. Also: Sneaker Pimps. 02:40:29 "Please forgive the lack of full compliance with IEEE or R4RS standards. Perhaps one of these days." <> 02:41:26 SLIB is still coded for R4RS iirc 02:41:28 I forget. 02:41:39 Scheme 9 From Outer Space is R4RS, but that's Nils M. Holm. 02:41:41 He's ZANY. 02:41:46 Oh my 02:42:39 cpressey: You have to complete a multi-choice HTML text adventure just to get to the directory listing^W^Wsite. 02:44:20 I have created a help page indicating the purpose of the templates 02:44:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:45:51 fizzie: While I appreciate your finding that alcohol is a GABA-receptor-inhibitor, I can't help but think there is a lot more to it than just that. These things are fermented food, and as such, chemically quite complex. I've noticed, for example, if I mix drinks (wine and beer) I get WAY more drunk WAY more quickly. 02:46:04 And sicker much more easily. 02:46:14 ANyway. 02:46:54 "Highly recommended!" 02:47:00 In a sort of existential rain puddle at the moment. Summoning Paddington bear... 02:47:44 I have found out that if you mix wine, beer, cocaine, pebbles, cannabis, cyanide, paint thinner, paint thickener, paint, water, hydroxic acid, LSD, and heroin, you die. 02:48:00 Interesting, that. 02:48:06 I think it's the hydroxic acid. 02:48:25 Ooh! Paint thickener! 02:48:29 I have discovered that if you mix 1 kilogram of caffeine with 1 liter of water and drink, your tongue dies and then you die. 02:49:04 (caffeine is one of the most bitter substances. Your tongue shall hate you and then die.) 02:51:54 So I had this idea, right... it would have gone well with eso-std.org 02:52:32 pikhq: Um, you'd die. 02:52:37 pikhq: Caffeine is lethal in that kind of dosage. 02:52:44 We should publish our own frickin' journal. JETICSARF. Journal of Esoteric Topics in Computer Science And Related Fields. 02:52:46 alise_: Yes, you would in fact die. 02:52:48 As I said. 02:52:50 It's lethal in quite small doses, even. 02:52:55 pikhq: True :P 02:52:59 cpressey: http://t3x.org/s9fes/index.html 02:53:02 Can you get to the site???? 02:53:07 alise_: Small per mass, perhaps. 02:53:17 I have done it (by cheating; opening all the choices in tabs). 02:53:21 We woudln't need to actually write papers or peer review them. Just suggestive abstracts would be fine. 02:53:24 Fortunately, it's effective and readily available at much smaller doses. 02:53:37 (milligrams!) 02:53:52 alise_: I can and will 02:54:21 alise_: ARGH DOWNLOAD LINK ON SIOD SITE BORKEN 02:54:26 last updated 1996 02:54:46 cpressey: huh 02:55:43 "Related FIelds", of course, are any course of research that has been, or could be, undertaken on a computer. 02:57:31 "You are standing in front of a building. The door of the building seems to be locked. A look at the opening times reveals that they have closed just a few seconds earlier. " 02:58:49 this is insane 02:59:06 i mean, global warming is one thing 02:59:21 but there is no way i can swallow this many pianos 02:59:24 cpressey: what 02:59:30 alise_: WHEEE 02:59:33 I think cpressey just tried my drug cocktail. 02:59:46 clowns did 02:59:54 ... 03:00:03 cpressey: HI CPRESSEY 03:00:08 *incoherent* 03:00:22 I wonder if cpressey is faking it! 03:00:42 I think that site, when combined with Spanish wine, has the same effect as your cocktail 03:02:25 OK, so... 03:03:11 one thing at a time, right? 03:03:27 the journey to Antarctica begins with a single step 03:03:49 and ends with screaming at the unspeakable horrors contains within those mountains of madness 03:03:57 *contained 03:05:04 alise_: Read Dijkstra's papers ever? 03:05:49 http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD13xx/EWD1305.html 03:06:05 cpressey: Some, yes 03:06:07 *yes. 03:06:31 better handwritten though 03:08:41 although 03:09:12 The first language I ever learned was BASIC. So I'm not with him on the "no previous exposure to BASIC or FORTRAN" thing. 03:09:32 It is a disadvantage. But one can overcome it. 03:09:42 One can forget things. 03:10:11 pikhq: One can indeed. One can... shelve them, where they belong. 03:10:11 First language I was exposed to was VB5 03:10:16 And I still regret it every day 03:11:07 Oh, I was a big Visual Basic programmer once. VB3 was, in a certain way, awesome. VB4 was such crap and so quickly was replaced by VB5 that it made me loathe Microsoft. 03:12:25 And while most people can understand how Microsoft's empire is built on Windows, fewer can understand how it is *really* built on BASIC. 03:12:54 So many of those 8-bit micros had a BASIC that came from Microsoft. 03:13:18 The ZX81 didn't, as far as I know. ZX81 BASIC was so weird, though. 03:14:29 Anyway! 03:14:43 Trying to run SIOD on an Amiga 500 emulator, because I'm NUTS. 03:14:59 While listening to Portishead via Youtube. 03:16:30 Actually, SMETANA was first implemented in VB3. Along with a really neat toy called "Cyclobots" which I should really rewrite in Java someday. 03:17:40 Back when I had just moved into my own place, (well, with a roommate), and had a new, ugly PC with a /Hercules/ B&W graphics card. I think it was a 386. 03:17:42 cpressey: *Pirated* BASIC, no less. 03:17:44 No. 03:17:48 It was a 486DLX. 03:17:50 -!- lament has joined. 03:17:50 OH GOD. 03:18:25 * Sgeo_ plays lament2.mid 03:19:08 pikhq: I haven't researched it enough to know that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I've heard such stupid rumours repeated. Like how Gates sat down and wrote the BASIC ROM for (the Altair's CPU?) and it "worked the first time". WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT! 03:19:34 I thnk this was on A&E 03:19:51 Gee, television, who'd have thought *you'd* ever distort history. 03:19:56 btw, hi lament! 03:20:10 cpressey: Oh, I'm not saying that MS's Altair BASIC was pirated from some other author. 03:20:26 cpressey: I'm saying it was made popular due to being pirated a lot is all. 03:20:38 Much like other Microsoft software. 03:20:40 pikhq: Ah yes. 03:21:11 It's fairly well known and documented that Bill Gates actually wrote Altair BASIC. 03:21:22 I seem to recall that that was the last program he wrote much of, thoug. 03:22:05 hi 03:22:08 ! 03:22:33 pikhq: DONKEY.BAS 03:23:42 Warrigal is trying to get me to grasp complex calculus 03:24:08 wait, where? 03:24:19 pikhq: HE WROTE DONKEY.BAS DAMMIT 03:24:28 Well, co-wrote. 03:24:32 At 4am in the morning! 03:25:20 pikhq: Yes, that sounds right. He also co-authored a very trivial paper on a contrived model of computation (a computer where reversing a list is O(1), iirc). These things seem to be trotted out to make him look like a technical marvel. But, like Jeff Bezos, his real talent is in business. 03:26:07 a computer where reversing a list is O(1) 03:26:17 I only remember the one with the gorilla throwing bananas 03:26:22 that's really cool, no? 03:26:27 definitely esoteric material 03:26:51 lament: Academia manages to suck the fun out of these things 03:27:26 "The player drives a car and encounters a donkey in the road." 03:27:46 GORILLAS.BAS 03:27:49 there we go 03:28:17 cpressey: are you in grad school or something? 03:28:24 lament: HAHAHAHAHA 03:28:33 lament: No, like you, I have a job as a software developer 03:28:50 I'm not sure if grad school would be better or worse 03:29:06 Better in some respects, but completely insane in others 03:29:32 what i don't like about grad school is that it's a bunch of TOTAL DORKS 03:30:05 Total dorks that you have to explain yourself to 03:30:27 0 03:30:28 erm 03:32:01 GORILLAS.BAS is awesome 03:32:03 and crap 03:32:09 lament: On the *other* hand... what kind of development methodology are you enveloped in? I am daily exposed to the SHEER WONDER that is "AGILE". 03:32:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:32:57 wellllllllllll 03:33:29 Hey, I wonder if Gorillaz ever... no. Their website is much cooler than that. 03:33:36 I just talked to my dad 03:33:39 i'm mostly exposed to the paradigm of "let's get it working with minimal effort and if necessary we'll patch it up later" 03:33:48 i guess it's the essence of agile 03:33:51 He said that I was at a computer since I was 4, and I had a choce between programming and games 03:33:54 And I chose games 03:33:55 :/ 03:34:00 \o/ 03:34:01 | 03:34:01 /`\ 03:34:05 but stripped of buzzwords it just feels like laziness and lack of work ethics 03:34:09 which is what it is :) 03:34:55 lament: That seems a lot better than being obsessed with sprints, estimation, what "points of effort" mean, "retros", "planning poker", etc etc 03:35:06 well yeah 03:35:16 our manager is a huge agile guy 03:35:24 thankfully he stays out of things 03:35:41 Hey, I wonder if Gorillaz ever... no. Their website is much cooler than that. ;; haha 03:35:47 but he goes to conferences and stuff, and it's easy to see how terrible it is in other places 03:36:02 the worst i've seen was a deck of cards by the company i think Industrial Logic 03:36:15 cpressey: omg, he changed the site 03:36:22 it's a deck of cards with witty quotes and various agile concepts 03:36:23 cpressey: i think it is unwinnable now 03:36:30 truly a horror to behold 03:36:48 (S9FES) 03:36:48 oh, here they are http://www.industriallogic.com/games/eppc.html 03:36:52 *(S9fES) 03:37:03 "Question 4/3: As of 2008, which one was the last useful Scheme report? a: R3RS b: R4RS (arguably) c: R5RS (arguably) d: R6RS" 03:37:05 no wait 03:37:19 cpressey: ha, he's made it more opinionated 03:37:27 (arguably) 03:37:36 oh it closes when you do anything else 03:37:37 lol 03:38:17 lament: omg we only have "planning poker" cards that consist of a crippled fibonacci sequence 03:38:50 The professor is shocked by the sudden return to reality. He starts to scream. A few seconds later campus security arrives and kicks you out of the building 03:39:01 I could (sadly) convince a large number of people that we need these better cards 03:39:06 cpressey: this one? http://www.industriallogic.com/games/pp.html 03:40:12 cpressey: it seems that the driving force beyond all these approaches is the perceptions that programmers are like children and their environment should be like kindergarten 03:40:25 cpressey: this is also the impression i got from google 03:40:44 s/beyond/behind 03:40:49 s/perceptions/perception 03:40:52 lament: lament No, not as interesing as those. We could just be using regular card, taking away 4, 6, 7, 9, etc 03:41:05 oh 03:41:24 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:42:01 c: R5RS (arguably) 03:42:01 c: R5RS (arguably) 03:42:04 wut. 03:42:07 why does it list it twice 03:42:10 Someone here (fizzie? pikhq?) made a sage observation that many of these "agile" things seem to be derived indirectly from role-playing games. Instead of a "dungeon master" there is a "scrum master", and you play these games with cards and tokens... 03:42:31 gosh 03:42:46 pikhq, is Sarah Palin actually running? 03:42:57 Or was that a sick and twisted joke designed to scare everyone here? 03:43:05 lament: Pardon my inaccuracy in typing. I've been drinking :) 03:43:15 haha 03:46:25 lament: On the plus side, I get to write code in Python (and sometimes Ruby), which, while it isn't ideal, isn't so bad. 03:48:38 Sgeo_: Really. 03:48:52 pikhq, linky? 03:49:04 Not handy! 03:49:27 cpressey: I'm permuting all the answers to the quiz, hee. 03:49:36 Except for the first question, whose answer I know. 03:49:45 Abuh? 03:49:46 or not. 03:49:48 *Or not. 03:49:50 It hasn't let me in for any of them. 03:50:00 alise_: I would gather from this that he doesn't *want* people using S9FES. 03:50:03 cpressey: i found i'm a huge fan of C# 03:50:05 cpressey: He is... an odd charcater. 03:50:18 cpressey: All down wit' that Buddhism and shit. 03:50:27 Basically deleted his website recently. etc. 03:50:39 His computer is like 932479435 years old because he doesn't believe in buying things. 03:51:09 lament: I... have yet to really get into C#, but what little I did do with it, didn't make me puke. It's Microsoft's Java, as far as I'm concerned :) 03:51:23 lament, I'm using C#! 03:51:32 I was vaguely plannig on writing a PL-{GOTO} compiler which targeted .NET 03:51:44 Thus, PL-{GOTO}.NET 03:51:50 well it's definitely better than java 03:52:08 cpressey: Ooh, he's released a sci-fi novel! 03:52:09 http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t3x.org%2Fsf%2Findex.html 03:52:12 "Fish room" 03:52:16 one day to be Charles Beville his quiet job on board a small research spacecraft up from and is involved in an odyssey, the extent of his to gradually begins to understand first. 03:52:16 The expedition in which he participates, has the goal of technology to explore an alien to humanity could permanently change the culture. Soon begins Beville, the effects of foreign influence in his own body felt. 03:52:16 When the change occurs after all, but she looks completely different than the clients of the mission itself had imagined it. 03:52:18 it has nice things like type inference and lambdas 03:52:20 Sounds enthralling. 03:52:37 but, i suppose like java, and much unlike for example haskell, it also has great debugging 03:52:43 alise_: Is this still Scheme 9 ? 03:52:58 cpressey: Uhh, same guy. 03:53:10 lament: Yeah, Haskell's capacity for debugging is pretty meagre. 03:53:16 A mindset thing. 03:54:26 alise_: Same, weeeeird guy, 03:54:29 *. 03:55:12 I think maybe I am taking the quiz in the wrong place, or something. 03:55:21 Like, you have to enrol or something first. 03:55:31 Well. How exactly do you go about debugging something with completely non-obvious execution order? 03:56:01 pikhq: You don't. You PROVE that your program is CORRECT. Therefore, not debugging NECESSARY. 03:56:04 *no 03:56:22 alise_: Oh MAN. 03:56:22 cpressey: Nice theory, but Haskell's not really the language for that. 03:56:28 "You are in a corridor. There are lots of doors, but they do not look inviting. There are other corridors to the south/east and to the south/west. One of the doors here looks somehow important." 03:56:36 Insufficient dependent typing. 03:56:37 I did this before... 03:56:54 pikhq: It came to a crossroads. It... I'm not sure it chose the right path. 03:57:20 Or, as the case may be, corridor. 03:57:23 Yeah, no permutation works. 03:58:24 "You need a magnetic card to enter the room." 03:58:27 How do I get one... 03:59:07 There's no really good reason you couldn't make a great Haskell debugger (ok -- let's call it an "execution visualizer" to not upset the locals.) But, it just seems, no one has. 03:59:52 cpressey: ahh but it's so nice to be able to just step through the code 04:00:01 cpressey: It'd have to be a bit complex, though, due to the heavily non-linear execution. 04:00:20 which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong 04:00:41 A bit complex, but you could mitigate it. This is being evaluated, because you asked for this, because you asked for this... 04:00:49 Probably work based off the model of graph reduction, with highlighting of currently-being-evaluated expressions. 04:00:53 lament: Fundamentally? :) 04:01:00 But yeah, totally doable if you had the urge. 04:01:30 cpressey: yes. no steps. 04:01:31 Tho I agree, most days I'd rather have a pure functional *eager* language. 04:01:43 which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong 04:01:44 which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong 04:01:47 Strangely, Erlang is closest to fitting that bill 04:01:48 or you lack imagination 04:01:54 (or are just used to imperativeness) 04:01:57 ff 04:02:00 Actually, with that done, it'd become somewhat easy to add thread debugging. 04:02:01 cpressey: ahh but it's so nice to be able to just step through the code 04:02:01 which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong 04:02:04 is what i meant to quote 04:02:11 alise_: i just think debugging is more important than actually writing code 04:02:13 Highlight multiple expressions at once. 04:02:23 haskell makes writing code nice and pleasant, but debugging not so much 04:02:45 the reason debugging is more important is because it's twice as hard 04:03:10 cpressey: HOW DO I DO THE GAME ;_; 04:03:22 It's not more important to me personally, but it certainly is, industrially speaking 04:03:24 the S9fES game 04:03:35 alise_: FUCKED IFFEN *I* KNOW, MATE 04:03:46 lament: It's also harder to make bugs. 04:03:51 cpressey: IFFEN? 04:03:54 You really have been drinking. 04:04:01 *hic* 04:04:10 Which is... Probably how large Haskell programs manage to get written at all, really. 04:05:03 without bugs? :) 04:05:17 lament: No non-trivial program is without bugs. 04:05:18 :) 04:05:19 So... SIOD has a strange syntax for define... probably due to R4RS or something... (define (funcname arg1 arg2) ...) 04:05:34 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 04:05:39 I'm used to (define funcname (arg1 arg2) ...) 04:05:47 Good static typing just makes certain classes of bugs damned hard to pull off is all. 04:05:53 cpressey: ... 04:05:56 cpressey: That's Scheme's syntax. 04:06:01 (define foo (...)) is not Scheme at all. 04:06:06 alise_: Then I am used to something crap I guess! 04:06:08 It has always been (define (foo ...) ...) 04:06:16 cpressey: Common Lisp has (defun foo (...) ...). 04:06:19 But that's defun, not define. 04:06:24 I'm used to whatever DrScheme has been giving me. 04:06:26 How can you have defined a Scheme dialect and not know this? 04:06:29 Uhh, DrScheme does it this way too. 04:06:33 You're just drunk. :P 04:06:43 Oh I forgot! I hate (define ...) anyway. 04:06:53 XDDD 04:07:01 ur funay 04:07:11 at least define doesn't sound as discouraging as 'defun' 04:07:13 cpressey: What's wrong with DEFINE? 04:07:30 function definition takes all the fun out of common lisp 04:07:45 cpressey: OK, it definitely isn't the quiz. 04:07:51 alise_: Nothing except that it violates the whole lexical binding thing 04:07:59 It ... doesn't. 04:08:05 Well it does kinda! 04:08:12 does NOT! 04:08:17 :( 04:08:25 cpressey: How? 04:08:44 lament: yeah, use the y combinator instead 04:09:27 How to 'splain. Well. Uh. You say (define x y), and you've gone and mutated the set of bindings, right? 04:09:47 Not really. 04:09:57 In the head of a function, it actually just serves as a let around the entire thing. 04:10:01 (You can't define after the head of a function.) 04:10:18 because SCHEME IS A NAZI LANGUAGE 04:10:20 You can't? 04:10:23 You can't. 04:10:30 You have to use let or set!. 04:10:31 See now that's wrong IN A DIFFERENT WAY. 04:10:34 what a dumb restriction 04:10:37 No, it's right because it isn't mutation. 04:10:38 yeah it's wrong 04:10:43 :( 04:10:50 It's more like ... a header. 04:11:05 well why is it not mutation? 04:11:07 Well... as a toplevel-only thing I can accept it... but only sort of 04:11:28 to make things easier for the optimizing compiler? 04:11:36 we all know THERE IS NO OPTIMIZING COMPILER. 04:11:38 And... I'm pretty sure I've seen it used badly. Maybe in a nonconforming scheme, but whay did I use excpet DrScheme? 04:11:49 OH DrScheme comes with a wicked "Jewels" game 04:12:14 Which was implemented on the Commodoree 64 as "Zoo Mania" where you match up animale heads instead 04:12:21 lament: We are opposed to MUTANTS. We should abort all infants with the X gene! 04:12:24 cpressey: You know, DrScheme doesn't exist any more... 04:12:25 04:12:26 I played that constantly for a while 04:12:50 alise_: Yeah yeah. They REBRANDED. 04:12:53 pikhq: We should abort all infants with the X chromosome! 04:12:58 04:13:08 alise_: ⁵ 04:13:14 pikhq: wat 04:13:16 oh high five 04:13:16 xD 04:13:31 Also, post-term abortions! 04:13:38 Maddox approves. 04:13:49 lament: Heck yeah. Why SHOULD there be an optimizing compiler? ... Have you seen picoLisp? It's interesting. 04:14:03 maddox is irritating 04:14:09 Why compile at all? You're just going to want to REFLECT and stuff anyway! 04:14:14 cpressey: The great thing about Scheme is the lengths you go to to implement it. 04:14:29 * cpressey gets lost in a twisty little maze of passages, all alike. 04:14:44 alise_: Me personally, or the general "you"? 04:14:54 cpressey: General. 04:15:07 That control flow is FUN FUN FUN 04:15:12 That makes more sense than the ridiculous notions that were in *my* head. 04:15:29 Because I'm considering implementing Pixley in C. 04:15:39 Argh. Stupid to talk about such things. 04:15:59 Not smart to drink and IRC, either. 04:16:04 * cpressey falls asleep 04:16:22 * cpressey awakens with a shock 04:16:28 MUTANTS? WHERE? 04:16:52 *grooooaaaaan* 04:16:55 * lament points at alise_ 04:16:58 "Torchwood" is an anagram of "Dr. Who". 04:17:03 Yes. 04:17:04 Yes it is. 04:17:11 OH hah it IS 04:17:11 pikhq: *Doctor Who 04:17:15 alise_: XD 04:17:31 And that's canon inside the universe. 04:17:38 *double effing groan* 04:17:40 First person to figure that out will escape the Matrix that is the canon. 04:17:44 pikhq: No, not the anagram. 04:17:47 Just the name. 04:17:51 Oh, okay. 04:17:53 So ... yeah. 04:18:03 pikhq: It's not like Doctor Who has canon though. 04:18:04 Or plots. 04:18:09 Or actual characters. 04:18:13 Hey! 04:18:28 alise_: It has canon. Just highly mutable. 04:18:31 I have fond memories of real Dr. Who, like I have fond memories of the Amiga 500. 04:18:37 pikhq: Suuure. 04:18:53 cpressey: The old series was shit; the new series is... mildly entertaining shit. 04:18:56 And it has plots. Characters? Well. Each arbitrary grouping of seasons does. 04:19:06 OK, so, uh, most of the characters were not *actually* well developed, but -- hey! 04:19:16 pikhq: No, it has characterisations. 04:19:21 Characters have actual personalities. 04:19:23 alise_: I quite like what classic Who I've seen. Sure, it's cheesy, but it's enjoyable. 04:19:35 The plots... well... strings of bad guys is more accurate. 04:19:59 alise_: What people don't understand is that classic (Baker #1) Dr. Who is *not* sci-fi. It's horror. 04:20:09 But it's not horrific. 04:20:28 Whatever. I love the shit. 04:20:31 cpressey: I prefer to call all of Doctor Who fantasy. 04:20:51 Because, well. It ain't exactly sci-fi, now is it? 04:20:57 omg Patrick Stewart should be the next Doctor 04:21:06 yeees 04:21:09 pikhq: It's sci-fi-coloured, sometimes. 04:21:13 (I have a somewhat broad notion of "fantasy" and a strict notion of "sci-fi", though) 04:21:16 cpressey: Quite true. 04:21:19 Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the U.S.S. TARDISprise. 04:21:31 Bah! 04:21:31 alise_: Yes. Patrick Stewart makes things better just by being there. 04:21:47 Patrick Stewart as a renegade Time Lord -- fine. 04:21:54 Imagine how painful TNG season I would be if Patrick Stewart weren't there. 04:21:55 If anyone hasn't seen Patrick Stewart on Extras, WATCH RIGHT NOW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg_cwI1Xj4M 04:22:23 Patrick Stewart, actually, thinking about it, would make a kick-ass renegade Time Lord. 04:22:26 (It has a joke at the expense of Star Trek, if you want an additional excuse.) 04:22:35 My comp's being a prick 04:22:42 Insofar as "kick-ass" is an appropriate adjective to use here, whcih it isn't. 04:22:50 lime turd? 04:24:24 Y'know what else I have fond memories of, from that Dr. Who-and-Amiga-500 time? 04:24:28 Dirty Pair. 04:24:34 The original. 04:25:33 Ah yes, the late 80's, and Canada, like the rest of North America, was just catching on to this new craze coming out of Japan -- a particular style of animation. 04:25:44 We actually called it "Japanimation" at the time. 04:26:23 There was an interest group for it in Manitoba, called M.A.N.G.A. Manitobans (something) New Generation Animation. 04:27:04 And there was this extremely schlocky, over-the-top, sci-fi-crime-drama(???) thing with these two chicks in "war bikinis". 04:27:27 Or was it the early 90's? Well, whatever. 04:28:32 It still befuddles me that we use the Japanese word for "animation" to refer to a Japanese style *of* animation. 04:28:54 Well, rather, a *set* of Japanese styles of animation. 04:29:01 It's not even a single style. 04:29:19 * cpressey is superdeformed 04:30:08 teme tihì ni na'ta! 04:31:45 * Sgeo_ lols at alise's video 04:33:19 alise_: Damn! You're right about (define (foo x) (* x x)) -- I must have been hallucinating the (define foo (x) (* x x)) syntax... 04:33:36 Oh Kay 04:34:04 I am never wrong. 04:35:26 So anyway, Pixley, under SIOD, under Amiga 500? It is borderline possible. 04:36:23 alise_, you thought I was drunk yesterday. 04:36:32 You were. 04:36:34 Or faking it. 04:37:30 * I am never wrong in a way I cannot argue my way out of. 04:37:47 Sgeo was descriptively drunk yesterday, if not prescriptively so. 04:38:01 oerjan: NO I'M NOT 04:38:02 * oerjan whistles innocently 04:38:38 <3 all <3-able things 04:38:48 (now THAT is drunk) 04:39:18 Nazis are, in theory, <3 able, if not sanely so 04:40:02 goodnight 04:40:07 -!- alise_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:43:17 -!- alise has joined. 04:43:18 cpressey: 04:43:19 "There is a horizontal division in this playfield, splitting it into regions called le ciel, on top, and la terre, below." 04:43:23 horizontal yet on top/below? 04:43:25 perhaps a bug. 04:43:27 re-bye 04:43:29 Goodnight. 04:43:33 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:43:44 alise: good 04:43:47 niht 04:43:53 cpressey, alise left 04:44:02 yup 04:44:30 "horizontal division" meaning, there is a horizontal line dividing up-part from down-part 04:45:49 ok anyway there are these two worlds, computation, and cybernetics. 04:46:06 no -- this is not to do with digigm 04:46:12 ok never mind 04:46:26 * cpressey seeks water 04:57:51 YOU HAVE NO IDEA (actually you do) 04:58:27 I AM THE PLATONIC ABSENSE OF IDEA 04:58:30 YOU HAVE NO IKEA (unless you do. CHRIS is a kind of corkboard, iirc) 04:58:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:58:57 oerjan: You and I, we're the old farts here, aren't we? 04:59:25 I should probably learn to appreciate the solace that is The Pun. 05:00:10 i thought you were only in your twenties... 05:00:14 ! 05:00:15 oh wait 05:00:19 you're certainly farts 05:00:35 I'm.... closer to my forties than I want to think about right now, thanks/. 05:00:38 hard to do if you invented befunge in 1993 05:01:07 A bit, yeah. 05:01:08 not _impossible_, but... 05:02:07 well i can at least take comfort in the fact i cannot get _closer_ to forty... 05:02:35 assuming that is a bad thing, you know. 05:04:11 Nothing wrong with maturity. Not that I have any... 05:05:43 no maturity here 05:06:58 Maturity? This is IRC. 05:13:35 I have never written a Mandelbrot generator. 05:14:02 I wonder if I will EVER write a Mandelbrot generator. Or if I will DIE first. 05:14:42 But Chris! Really, aren't there already ENOUGH Mandelbrot generators on this planet? Well, yes, probably. 05:15:26 i guess i _am_ an old fart, i distinctly recall i wrote a mandelbrot generator in the 80's 05:16:28 I distinctly recall only barely being able to be called "existing" in the 80s. 05:18:28 In the 80's, such things would have been fairly cutting-edge. I only remember fractals taking a share of the public imagination in the mid-90's 05:18:42 Popcorn Julia 05:19:36 cpressey: Except for people who programmed home computers. 05:20:05 I'm pretty sure that fractal generators became a fairly common thing to write about when you had enough graphics capabilities to render one. 05:20:30 pikhq: And/or had subscriptions to Amiga Factor magazine. 05:20:36 Actually, I am making that up. 05:20:41 XD 05:20:47 I have no idea what the name of the magazine actually was. 05:26:50 So there are these two worlds, computation and cybernetics, but actually they are kind of duals of each other. Well, forgive me for being drunk, but it's not like I'd make more sense with this when I'm sober, I'm just more inclined to write it, now... 05:28:09 Computation: we want computers to be extensions of our own minds, to augment the *joy* that comes from thinking and reasoning. Cybernetics: we want computers to *replace* our own minds, to automate stuff we don't care about, to reduce the *drudgery* of thinking and reasoning. 05:28:28 s/thinking/drinking 05:28:45 Ohhh Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant 05:29:13 cpressey: do you play Go? 05:29:57 lament: hM. Actually, no. I know there are several variations, and that it is a very intellectually hard game 05:30:14 Used to play chess. Don't anymore. Kind of boring. 05:30:48 ok 05:31:05 lament: Is go something you play? 05:31:08 i really like go but kinda hate playing it 05:31:09 yeah 05:31:39 it's a very pretty game, the problem is that it's still a competitive activity 05:34:10 Yeah. Competition -- gee, speaking of maturity... I prefer more indirect forms of competition too. 05:34:36 I remember a "Go-Moku" game on the Apple II. It was nigh impossible to beat. 05:35:11 Also... implementing a much simpler variation of it, as a class project, for a data structures course, the 1st time I went to university (in the early 90's.) 05:35:24 Don't remember what that variation was called, though. 05:35:39 probably go-moku 05:35:44 it doesn't get any simpler 05:35:56 the one with complicated rules is called renju 05:36:03 Hm 05:36:47 -!- augur has joined. 05:37:14 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:37:52 I'm pretty sure it had a weird name that I don't recall :/ 05:38:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 05:38:38 ALso, I had a friend in high school, who went on to become an academic who was part of a team who proved some properties about Go and similar games (at U Alberta). 05:38:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:39:15 cool 05:39:17 -!- augur has joined. 05:39:28 academia sure takes all fun out of stuff :) 05:40:12 *echm* 05:40:14 MOX 05:41:00 lament: yup. Something about enumerating all possible games of Checkers, ISTR 05:42:33 cpressey: where do you live? 05:43:26 coppro: Chicago 05:43:29 currently 05:43:33 Used to be in Canada. 05:43:48 ah, neat 05:44:05 cpressey: I take it you love US immigration now. :P 05:45:09 where in Canada? 05:45:12 pikhq: Love? Eh well um... 05:45:23 Sarcasm. 05:45:48 coppro: Originally Winnipeg, Manitoba. Then Vancouver BC for a while. And for a very brief period, Windsor, Ontario! 05:46:19 cool 05:50:07 Winnipeg used to be a really nice city. I miss it sometimes. It's gone a bit downhill, though. (everyone with any potential, left :/ ) 05:51:32 lol 05:51:48 * coppro is just now moving to Waterloo 05:52:14 Ha, I remembered someone here is going to U Waterloo, but I thought it was pikhq 05:52:45 Not I. 05:53:02 and lament is presumably still in Canada, based on the shawcable address 05:53:11 what do you mean still 05:53:32 ok, maybe not still. now. 05:53:53 at one point, you was, at this point, you is. who knows about in-between? 05:58:02 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:58:03 ommm 06:06:34 -!- kareem has joined. 06:06:42 hi 06:09:31 -!- kareem has left (?). 06:10:06 bye 06:11:01 kareem was here earlier, I thought we scared him off with all the talk of HUMAN SACRIFICE 06:11:11 of course, could be a different kareem 06:33:41 -!- augur has joined. 06:40:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:45:38 hahaha stage 24 07:13:19 -!- cheater00 has joined. 07:14:29 ...My Active Worlds citnum is going to be in the Factor docs 07:15:16 Or maybe not 07:16:29 [ 1 1 + . continue 1 1 + . ] callcc0 07:16:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:21:34 [ dup continue-with ] callcc1 07:21:42 Results in a continuation all by itself 07:29:06 (call/cc (lambda (k) (k k))) 07:29:45 Indeed 07:35:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:36:54 Yep, my citnum's there 07:38:13 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:38:24 I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition! 07:40:12 Nnnnnnobody does. 07:42:20 http://github.com/doublec/factor/commit/639972379f3684792411909be3e8f06ac15c4ca9 07:43:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:45:56 Sgeo_: What is that? 07:46:16 Some documentation for pattern matching in Factor 07:46:25 It was previously incorrect, now it's correct 07:46:38 And as an example value, they used _my_ citnum in Active Worlds 07:49:18 What is a citnum in Active Worlds? 07:49:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:49:39 -!- augur has joined. 07:50:16 zzo38, on registration, users are given a uniquely identifying number 07:50:33 And choose a name, but the name can be changed anytime. The citnum is permanent 07:50:45 I am not a number, I am a free man! 07:51:29 * Sgeo_ is proud to be the number 346126 07:53:30 -!- comex_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:54:02 * Sgeo_ needs sleep eventually 07:54:04 So that is the account number? 07:54:48 Yes 07:54:55 It's not private information, though 07:55:03 Anyone in AW can see anyone else's citnum 07:55:16 OK 07:55:33 Now you can see what the templates I created on the esolang wiki are for...... 07:56:45 -!- comex has joined. 07:58:25 -!- calamari has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:05:19 Night all 08:05:51 -!- cheater- has joined. 08:08:44 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:23:24 -!- tombom has joined. 08:25:53 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:49:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:51:10 " there are sooo many ways to play a violin. Try rendering anything by Paganini in midi. I doubt the result will be even passable" <<< yeah paganini is bullshit, he just knew how to make cool sounds with a violin 08:51:50 true 08:51:59 anything by bach would still sound good 09:09:26 " academia sure takes all fun out of stuff :)" <<< no 09:12:27 all true fun resides in academia, games are just one reflection of that fun on the outside, losing most of its inherent funity 09:13:33 *their 09:13:57 i'm gonna go to uni, you know, for fun -> 09:38:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:43:03 -!- tombom has joined. 09:49:17 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:39:57 -!- iGO has quit. 11:01:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 11:29:12 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:30:32 -!- distant_figure has joined. 12:21:21 -!- jix has joined. 12:22:03 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 12:22:17 -!- jix has joined. 12:32:13 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:33:11 -!- distant_figure has joined. 13:11:37 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:16:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:28:26 -!- tombom has joined. 14:23:58 -!- FireyFly has joined. 14:37:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:45:38 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 14:49:20 -!- nooga has joined. 14:49:32 hei 14:50:27 witaj 14:54:41 -!- sftp has joined. 15:19:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:30:32 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:37:42 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:38:37 -!- distant_figure has joined. 15:45:17 -!- oklofok has joined. 15:48:25 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:55:41 oerjan: that was... unexpected 15:55:42 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 15:55:59 in fact, we also say 'hej' in Polish 15:56:10 the difference is i->j 15:56:31 oh 16:01:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:09:18 Unsurprisingly, the latest version of SIOD does not build out-of-the-box on Linux. This is unsurprising because the latest version of SIOD is from 1996. 16:15:25 SIOD? 16:17:50 Scheme In One Def(un|ine) 16:19:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:19:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 16:19:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:21:10 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:21:18 -!- nooga has joined. 16:34:11 SIOD? 16:34:43 Ahahahahahahahaha 16:34:54 simultaneously in other dimension 16:35:44 That sounds like a good idea for an esolang! 16:36:22 cpressey, isn't that just terrible design? 16:39:37 Hmm, other dimensional computing sounds similar to quantum computing. 16:40:59 Phantom_Hoover: Probably, but I have yet to see it have any meaning, in the implementation. 16:41:44 The C code is formatted like Lisp: curly bracket that ends a function definition is on the same line as the last statement of the function. 16:43:06 Neat. 16:44:14 Scheme in one defun, to actually answer nooga's question 16:45:16 heh 16:45:33 news flash: 16:45:38 * nooga has got skin cancer 16:45:43 this sucks 16:45:48 eek 16:45:49 Indeed. 16:45:56 but it's curable 16:46:15 ... i hope :D 16:46:20 A skinectomy! 16:46:24 uhum 16:50:04 well, i'm experimenting with an interesting OISC 16:50:51 luckily it's not BRAIN cancer ;f 16:51:04 ominously irridescent skin cancer 16:51:23 *iridescent 16:52:11 ? 16:52:21 OISC 16:52:29 wtf :D 16:52:33 body ravaging alien infecting nanobots 16:52:39 "Doctor, my skin is glowing." 16:52:43 "It's nothing to worry about." 16:52:45 oerjan: cut that out! 16:52:52 "Thanks doctor!" *dies* 16:53:22 Nugget of osmium: go away! 16:53:30 -, 16:54:43 Oh, Engelbert? John and Nancy? 16:54:49 AAARG 16:54:53 Forgot the r! 16:55:02 * Phantom_Hoover commits seppuku. 16:55:27 please hang tom 16:55:45 Pht? 16:56:30 P HAN TOM 16:56:55 -!- nooga has changed nick to wnghtr. 16:56:59 try now 16:57:25 What? nooga got harder to remember? 16:57:43 -!- wnghtr has changed nick to chrzaszcz. 16:58:12 a -> ą 16:59:08 cpressey, have robots zapped augur so zebras can zoom? 16:59:31 a pertinent question 16:59:45 Phantom_Hoover: Just a minute, I'll check. 16:59:55 hell, you're good 16:59:56 augur: Have robots zapped you, and if so, did they say why? 17:00:20 -!- tombom has joined. 17:02:19 The overall madness beats orange mangoes. 17:04:09 Please hold, as nasty thoughts of my head ooze over virtually every riddle. 17:05:06 !help 17:05:08 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 17:05:14 `help 17:05:17 Come, put rioja everywhere! So sudden enter you! 17:05:22 i have no idea what fungot is 17:05:23 oklofok: versus just going to play one more game that's it and ah he used to smoke 17:05:23 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 17:05:28 fungot: help 17:05:29 oklofok: ( ( laughter)) irrelevant but i'm certain that nobody i know does either right so like it's nice to 17:05:35 ^help 17:05:36 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 17:05:40 rrright 17:05:53 i want that one that does ababa baba aba ba a 17:06:08 although what i was trying to do is obvious from that 17:06:11 ^show 17:06:11 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord test 17:06:13 so i guess it's pointless to continue 17:06:16 right 17:06:18 ^choo cpressey 17:06:19 cpressey pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y 17:06:48 cpressey, have robots zapped augur so zebras can zoom? <--- is there any reasonable context for it? Reading the preceding 20 lines indicates there isn't? 17:06:59 XD 17:07:25 Phantom_Hoover, after turning on the monitor that is quite a strange first line to read 17:11:37 ^choo oklofok 17:11:38 oklofok klofok lofok ofok fok ok k 17:12:03 Vehemently oppose repression! Pah! All lies! 17:12:42 -!- distant_figure has joined. 17:13:28 Funny, undertakers never go over there. 17:16:13 -!- chrzaszcz has changed nick to ereswmara. 17:17:13 Eris rues everything Swedish when Mr Arvid reads again. 17:17:48 ^choo oohc^ 17:17:48 oohc^ ohc^ hc^ c^ ^ 17:18:05 ^choo ^choo 17:18:05 ^choo choo hoo oo o 17:18:10 beh 17:18:19 ^cho cho 17:18:20 chohoo 17:18:27 ^cho foo 17:18:27 fooooo 17:18:29 i wanted loop 17:18:34 ^cho hello 17:18:34 helloellolloloo 17:18:38 -!- alise has joined. 17:19:01 Aha! Little Ivan says everything! 17:19:54 -!- lament has joined. 17:20:10 08:45:38 * nooga has got skin cancer 17:20:12 RIP 17:20:48 ereswmara: no bots see their own messages at all, and most ignore the other bots as well 17:20:49 At least I'm sober ecofreak 17:20:52 ^cho oklopol 17:20:53 oklopolklopollopolopolpololl 17:21:01 alise: yes rip it off quickly 17:21:08 Lo! A man everyone notes tersely! 17:21:13 alise: oh shut up, it's not deadly 17:21:24 alise, my AW citnum is in Factor documentation 17:21:29 ereswmara: Awwwwwww. (Kidding; try not to die.) 17:21:31 Sgeo_: ? 17:21:49 ^cho ITRALCEN 17:21:49 ITRALCENTRALCENRALCENALCENLCENCENENN 17:21:57 ^unscramble ITRALCENTRALCENRALCENALCENLCENCENENN 17:21:58 INTNREANLECCENNETCRLANLECCELNARNAELC 17:21:59 http://github.com/doublec/factor/commit/639972379f3684792411909be3e8f06ac15c4ca9 17:22:07 doublec/factor != Factor 17:22:17 == one fork of factor 17:22:25 also, i don't get it 17:22:31 So, green empires own? 17:22:45 alise, I pointed out an issue with Factor's documentation regarding pattern matching 17:22:45 Sgeo_: did you suggest that just because it's your number thing? 17:23:02 if so, I hope you pointed it out. otherwise it's disingenuous. 17:23:09 I jokingly said 346126, mentioned what it was, and they included it 17:23:31 Although slava jokingly asked for cc and/or social security as a more real-life exampke 17:23:33 *example 17:24:06 he may not have been joking. 17:25:25 alise: what lev 17:25:29 still playing? 17:26:04 oklofok: not right now, but i'm up to 66 17:26:09 which i can't logisticate properly 17:26:12 you? 17:26:26 ass-licking idiotic shit eel 17:26:47 64, i played a couple minutes just now 17:26:58 I'll cheat to help you 17:26:59 64 was trivial once i did spaces with my right hand 17:27:01 i can give you a walkthrough for it 17:27:04 my leftie sucks 17:27:08 apparently :( 17:27:09 64 is a puzzle 17:27:12 i know 17:27:14 not a space raper 17:27:22 so have you finished it 17:27:25 yeah but i mean the one i was stuck in yesterday 17:27:30 i haven't tried 64 17:27:37 errrr 17:27:50 " 64 was trivial once i did spaces with my right hand" <<< i see what may have confused you 17:28:09 by 64 i - obviously - meant 60 17:28:39 23:21:34 [ dup continue-with ] callcc1 17:28:41 [ ] callcc1 17:28:52 oklofok: :) 17:29:00 so to recap, 60 was easy with hand switch, and three after that were triv, 64 i haven't tried because i remember it took a bit of thinking 17:29:10 oklofok: i can tell you the order 17:29:11 after that it's easy 17:29:14 if you just go fast 17:29:15 alise, where from? 17:29:17 Hmm, good point 17:29:19 Phantom_Hoover: ? 17:29:45 i'll ask you if i get stuck 17:29:51 go fast and try not to die 17:29:52 Sgeo's quotes 17:29:59 logs 17:30:51 Oh? Kleptomaniacs leave obelisks for other kings. 17:31:17 * oklofok is trying to see if that makes sense 17:31:22 * Sgeo_ hits Phantom_Hoover with an ettin 17:31:38 * Sgeo_ watches the ettin leave an obelisk 17:31:47 Shpwan? 17:31:49 i would have thought kleptomaniacs would want to *take* obelisks *away* from kings 17:32:10 No, it's an exception. 17:32:18 That's why I bothered to mention it. 17:32:28 Boo-yah! 17:32:49 * Sgeo_ hits alise with a reference recognition failure 17:36:10 * cpressey euuhs 17:36:21 -!- derdon has joined. 17:38:08 so I want to have a functionalish language where 'take-argument' and 'provide-argument' are dual operations (sort of) 17:39:33 er I have to think about this 17:43:53 basically so along with currying, there is a "yrrucing" operation, which takes a function and yields a new function which requires one more argument 17:44:47 currying and yrrucing should ideally have nice algebraic properties, but they probably don't 17:46:35 But what will yrrucing do with the extra argument? 17:47:06 make it available to the function. i was originally thinking in terms of named arguments. now i'm not, i think this is simpler. 17:47:11 I suppose you could argue that lambda yrrucs, then. 17:47:36 yes, in a way it does. i wonder if that's what i'm thinking of 17:47:48 Yes 17:47:57 cpressey, inventor of the lambda term. 17:48:01 \o/ 17:48:01 | 17:48:01 /< 17:48:21 Hey, it's less screwy when you do it. 17:48:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to phntmh. 17:48:42 \o/ 17:48:43 | 17:48:43 /| 17:48:56 -!- phntmh has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 17:49:04 What happens when you do it? 17:49:32 -!- cpressey has changed nick to Photon_Hamster. 17:49:36 \o/ 17:49:36 | 17:49:36 /< 17:49:42 -!- Photon_Hamster has changed nick to cpressey. 17:50:15 -!- cpressey has changed nick to pzth. 17:50:18 \o/ 17:50:24 !haskell map sort ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] 17:50:28 Indeed. 17:50:32 -!- pzth has changed nick to cpressey. 17:50:50 !haskell map List.sort ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] 17:50:52 ["HP_aehmnooortv","HP_aehmnoorstt"] 17:51:14 That was a lot funnier than I expected it to be 17:52:20 http://superosity.keenspot.com/ 17:53:05 !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= sort 17:53:11 oerjan: Good thing both my nick and Phantom_Hoover's are strings, or you wouldn't have been able to put them both in a Haskell list. 17:53:26 oh 17:53:34 * cpressey wants a non-string-type nick 17:53:35 !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= return . sort 17:53:44 well fuck you too 17:53:44 oklofok: you need the List. 17:54:42 sorry not following 17:55:02 oklofok: i corrected it above 17:55:12 ...oh 17:55:20 !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= List.sort 17:55:22 "HP_aehmnooortvHP_aehmnoorstt" 17:55:26 ooookay 17:55:46 now i wonder why i thought i need a return 17:56:12 to avoid concatenation? 17:56:48 no, but yeah i guess that's what it does 18:04:03 * Phantom_Hoover notes that octothorpe is actually a real name for the hash sign. 18:04:26 Why was I not informed of this? 18:04:29 Phantom_Hoover: what's in my head for yrruc is not quite a lambda form, though you could use it as one. actually, it should be ylppa, because it's a dual of application, not currying. 18:04:41 Why isn't there a Factor bot in here? 18:04:45 And why do Americans call hash "pound"? 18:04:52 Pound is £! 18:05:40 "You look like 10# of Falcon in a 5# bag, son" 18:06:20 Ugh, Imperial measurements and confusion with currency. 18:06:27 Phantom_Hoover: And I blame *you* for nail sizes being called "pennies" and abbreviated "d". 18:07:10 cpressey, nail sizes? As in the little pointy things? 18:07:31 The little metal spikes you hammer into wood. Yes. 18:07:46 * Phantom_Hoover boggles that you need separate sizes for them 18:08:05 Why can't you just give length and diameter? 18:08:58 blacksmiths liked pennies better i guess. 18:09:29 IIRC pennies are abbreviated "d" because of LATIN 18:10:39 And that is why the pound sign looks like an "L". 18:11:18 denarii iirc 18:11:22 Yes. 18:11:48 and libra 18:11:54 Indeed. 18:12:09 Phantom_Hoover: Is this meant to persuade me to cease blaming you for it? Not going to happen. 18:12:14 Sestercii is presumably where the solidus comes from. 18:12:35 s/c/t/ 18:12:48 Huh? 18:12:57 sestertii 18:13:05 And c and t? 18:13:25 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----### 18:13:58 Your palm frond does not assist my confusion! 18:14:51 merely comparest thou thine own statement to my correction, shall all become clear 18:15:34 * Phantom_Hoover didn't realise that wasn't a solidus 18:15:59 also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidus_(coin) 18:16:33 I was referring to the strokey thing. 18:16:52 Is that -----### meant to be a palm frond? 18:18:05 no, a fly swatter 18:18:57 "The names solidus and shilling mark have the same background." 18:19:03 ...What sort of fly swatter do you have? 18:19:09 When I borrowed it to swat Phantom_Hoover, it was a palm frond. 18:19:18 It is clearly a magical object of some kind. 18:19:29 cpressey: definitely not what you borrowed, it had too many #'s 18:19:53 oerjan: All kinds of junk lying around here -- I must have picked up the wrong thing. 18:20:16 Phantom_Hoover: it's had pieces added before 18:20:35 and someone ate or stole the previous one, iirc 18:20:38 * Phantom_Hoover grabs something and hits oerjan with it ~~~~~@@@ 18:20:44 eeewww 18:20:56 awk doesn't seem to have higher-order functions :( 18:21:33 omg there's an #awk 18:21:55 i shouldn't report these findings 18:21:57 cpressey, so can you give further details on yrruc? 18:22:01 * oerjan gawks awkwardly at #awk 18:22:02 not yet 18:22:29 cpressey, why shouldn't you report? 18:22:54 people here just follow me into them! 18:23:06 * oerjan didn't actually join 18:25:06 no, but PH did. it's weird though, many times when I join another channel, there is already someone from #esoteric there. 18:25:09 -!- madbr has joined. 18:25:10 imagine that huh? 18:25:49 i am sure there is some completely natural explanation that has nothing to do with us stalking you at all 18:28:25 unless it's Vorpal. i hear he is on every channel, ever. or something. 18:28:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 18:29:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:29:26 oerjan: He has his eyes everywhere! You can't hide from him! 18:30:21 Verily, omniscientally regarding perfectly all locations. 18:30:28 fizzie: although you can confuse him with parts of conversation he has missed 18:30:32 * Phantom_Hoover can confirm that Vorpal is not on ##gameoflife 18:30:40 he cannot keep _up_ everywhere, after all 18:32:48 Phantom_Hoover: my sources may have been slightly unreliable 18:34:06 ylppa(f,a) evaluates to f' which is like f except all occurrences of 'a' within it are replaceable. apply(f,a) replaces whatever is topmost replaceable in f with a. 18:34:33 sorry, i mean, apply(f,a) evaluates to f' which is like f with whatever was topmost replaceable in f replaced by a. 18:35:01 and i don't think apply actually evaluates; i think you need eval(f), and f must in that case have no replaceables 18:35:02 unless it's Vorpal. i hear he is on every channel, ever. or something. <-- no, I'm on about 70 channels on freenode. In total a bit over 350 (yes I cut down heavily, used to be almost 500) 18:35:12 freenode has way more channels, check /lusers 18:35:26 * 37855 :channels formed 18:35:39 sorry, make that "about 80" for freenode 18:35:42 84 18:36:08 this means: apply(ylppa(f,a),a) == f 18:36:10 in any case i recall you had to apply to get your channel limit lifted... 18:36:23 oerjan, yes but they have increased it for everyone nowdays 18:36:30 from the extremely silly 20 18:36:34 to iirc 100 18:36:40 so no problems any more 18:36:46 oerjan, being on more than 20 channels is trivial 18:36:59 cpressey: that sounds rather close to lambda to me. i guess it could still do weird things with nesting 18:37:27 the main difference is that there are no "names" as such, just terms, i guess 18:38:15 so a could be any term? 18:38:36 that is the idea 18:38:51 ok then 18:39:14 "that is my idea. if you don't like it, i have others" 18:39:29 eh, it's funnier with "principles" 18:39:57 cpressey: that sounds like a zzo38 quote :D 18:40:57 secondciples 18:42:31 kingiples 18:45:36 Multiples. 18:47:25 * alise tries to make heads or tails of HAKMEM ITEM 172 18:47:28 this means: apply(ylppa(f,a),a) == f 18:47:33 cool, but what does ylppa actually do? 18:47:36 and how are you /still/ drunk? 18:48:02 No, just hungover. decided not to go on a long-weekend-long bender. 18:48:22 ylppa the geek 18:48:23 ylppa is... ah hell, just say it's lambda 18:48:23 so presumably we have some sort of quote-expression thing 18:48:25 so is 18:48:29 ylppa([a+2],a) 18:48:32 == \a -> a+2 18:48:33 ? 18:48:37 as opposed to 18:48:40 eval([a+2]) 18:48:46 would only work if you have a local named a 18:49:02 apply(ylppa([a+2],a),42) == [42+2] 18:49:06 eval([42+2]) == 44 18:49:09 cpressey: it's not lambda 18:49:22 it turns a sort-of-dynamically-scoped quotation into a lexically-scoped lambda 18:49:29 (really an unscoped one, executing in the current scope) 18:49:32 cpressey: that's way cool. 18:49:43 alise: you might understand it better than i do 18:49:58 cpressey: i believe so. 18:50:01 yppla is lambda without names 18:50:06 nope 18:50:06 that was all i intended 18:50:08 well 18:50:10 sort of 18:50:21 cpressey: here's how i was viewing it 18:50:25 [a+2] is just some quoted code, right? 18:50:30 ok 18:50:37 a = 4; eval([a = 42]) 18:50:42 now a is 42 18:50:47 but consider 18:51:03 a = 4; f = ylppa([a = 42], a); eval(apply(f, a)) 18:51:10 assuming (x=y) is an expression returning y 18:51:18 the eval just evaluates to 42 and disregards the result 18:51:25 cpressey: so ylppa lifts a name into the []s closure 18:51:41 well it'd actually be ylppa([a = 42], 'a) where 'x is a symbol but you get the idea 18:52:02 -!- Hiant has joined. 18:53:04 cpressey: so what you have invented is really cool actually 18:53:08 yeah you need symbols don't you 18:53:22 cpressey: it's like lambda, except it operates on pre-existing functions 18:53:26 except 18:53:27 they aren't functions 18:53:29 they're just quoted code 18:53:30 ala Joy 18:53:38 (so they inherit your locals, as if an evalled string) 18:53:55 functions, quoted code, meh 18:54:01 rename proposed: instead of apply(f,x) we just write f*(x) 18:54:14 -!- Hiant has quit (Client Quit). 18:54:15 instead of ylppa(f,'a) we write ^('a,f) 18:54:18 i was originally going to use * for yppla and / for apply 18:54:29 oh, good idea 18:54:35 is it?? 18:54:40 well, good enough 18:54:42 apply(f,x) -> f/x 18:54:47 ylppa(f,'a) -> 'a/f 18:54:53 eval(x) -> ^x 18:55:00 (because it lifts a quotation outside the [], evaluating it!) 18:55:03 so we have 18:55:10 ^[x] === x 18:55:20 erm 18:55:24 *ylppa(f,'a) -> 'a*f 18:55:26 and 18:56:03 -!- Hiant has joined. 18:56:05 ^(v*[q])/v === evaluating q, except the local v is restored at the end 18:56:42 alise: yeah i think this is all pretty close to what i was thinking on some level 18:57:08 as long as (x*y)/x = y, i'm happy 18:57:21 *'x*y, presumably 18:57:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:57:36 cpressey: well, sort of 18:57:43 ('x*[x])/42 = [42] 18:57:52 ('x*[x])/x = [] 18:57:57 ('x*[x])/'x = ['x] 18:58:00 cpressey: so it isn't quite that 18:58:10 er right 18:58:11 damn 18:58:25 no 18:58:27 wait 18:58:28 er 18:58:35 * cpressey gets more coffee 18:58:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:58:54 -!- augur has joined. 18:59:10 hi ais523 18:59:25 hi 18:59:49 imagine I insert my normal warning here about being very angry in RL 19:00:10 and ofc that isn't the fault of anyone here, but it can still make me snappy on occasion 19:01:16 ais523: I have no idea what that normal warning is; I don't recall you ever being angry. 19:01:22 But noted. 19:01:35 it's along the lines of "I'm very angry/annoyed, but not with you" 19:01:47 OTOH, being here generally helps to calm me down 19:01:51 even if it doesn't actually help with anything 19:02:29 cpressey's come up with something that I understand better than him and think is awesome 19:03:02 it's a way to turn quotations that inherit their scope when you run them, that is, x=3; q=[x=(x+1)]; ^q ====> x is 4 19:03:06 into proper lexically-scoped lambdas 19:03:08 it lacks an algebraic property that i want, which is possibly why i don't see it as alise does 19:03:21 cpressey: yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to fix that 19:03:24 cpressey: oh! i know! 19:03:28 cpressey: apply takes a quotation, not a value 19:03:30 and inserts it in 19:03:43 so ('x*[x])/[x] == [x] 19:03:45 the algebraic property is perhaps not as useful as the... what you see in it 19:03:55 so ('x*[x+9])/[x+4] == [(x+4)+9] 19:04:13 so ('x*q)/[x] == q 19:04:24 alise: might work 19:05:35 -!- calamari has joined. 19:09:24 why not 'x == [x]? then [x]*[x+9]/[y]=[y+9] ... [9]*[x+9]/[y]=[x+y] ... [x+9]*[x+9]/[3]=[3]... and I believe x*y/x=y (using * with higher prec than / here) 19:09:46 x*x/y=y as well 19:10:01 that's... not so happily algebraic 19:10:34 well 'x as [x] is fine 19:10:39 well, x is a self-annihilator of some kind. x*x=1. where 1 is the identity 19:10:45 what? 19:10:45 for this... thing 19:10:50 i was just using x as a variable 19:11:00 x*x=1, aka x = 1 19:11:10 forall x, x*x = 1 19:11:29 identity is the wrong word 19:12:40 oh * not as in multiplication 19:12:41 :-D 19:12:46 well uh 19:12:54 cpressey: this is not making sense any more 19:12:58 x `ylppa` x == 1 19:13:00 i did your property 19:13:46 i think i'm using your version, just noting that [x] and 'x are the same 19:14:35 [x]*[x] = [x]*[x], there's no real other name for it 19:14:40 since it does something new to the language inexpressable otherwise 19:14:53 ([x]*[x])/[x] == [x], though 19:14:54 ok, not on same page 19:15:02 cpressey: ofc if we allow [x] to be ylppaed then we can do 19:15:08 ([42]*[42])/[3] == [3] 19:15:10 which is bizarre 19:15:40 [c]*[a+b+c] --> i'm going to need a new syntax for this 19:16:01 ([2]*[42])/[3] == [43] 19:16:03 [c]*[a+b+c] --> [a+b+()] 19:16:10 oerjan: ha 19:16:19 [a+b+()] / [c] --> [a+b+c] 19:16:25 cpressey: yes 19:16:28 also, make it $0, $1, etc 19:16:31 since you can ylppa something again 19:16:34 sure 19:16:36 also, let's say :c, not [c] 19:16:44 i like [c] 19:16:45 because making a hole out of arbitrary expressions is freaky 19:16:47 and i think unneeded 19:16:56 cpressey: [1+4]*[1+4+3] 19:17:06 arbitrary expressions was the point 19:17:08 (should [1+4]*[1+3+4] do anything? no? why not?) 19:17:16 Har du ylppat din varg idag? 19:17:20 (they're undistinguishable quotations in every other sense) 19:18:08 incidentally 19:18:09 ok, for my algebra's sake, in x*y and y/z, x y and z need to be the same "type" 19:18:16 you can get all of Valve's games for £52.99 19:18:21 so, arbitrary (quoted) expressions, all 19:18:28 (separately it'd cost £124.82) 19:18:41 ok, for my algebra's sake, in x*y and y/z, x y and z need to be the same "type" 19:18:42 same type? 19:18:45 what is a type? 19:19:12 anything you could stick into y, you can also stick into x, without going, "whoa that's freaky and unneeded" 19:19:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:19:47 this for algebra, note. for PL feature alone, if you think it's cool, i won't push it 19:20:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 19:21:00 yeah i'm just not getting this at all now :-D 19:21:15 btw Pixley-in-C should be easy. no continuations after all 19:21:15 ok, well... rome was not burned down in a day 19:21:23 assuming you don't mind very limited recursion 19:21:31 alise: i actually started it this morning, but gave up quickly 19:21:34 cpressey: xD 19:21:48 cpressey: want me to have a try at giving up? 19:21:50 simple, yes, but boring, plus i'm easily distracted, 19:21:56 cpressey: i assume you don't mind being recursion-limited to the size of the C stack 19:22:12 alise: you mean, you want to implement Pixley-in-C? be my guest 19:22:17 hmm, I take it bignums are considered required? 19:22:24 no nums in pixley 19:22:28 only symbols 19:22:29 oh, ha 19:22:34 like arrowlisp but not as pure 19:22:34 makes that part easy 19:22:46 arrowlisp: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-arrowlisp-1175.html 19:22:50 if i knew arrowlisp, i'd say, yes! but i don't 19:22:52 purely symbolic lisp -- by Nils M. Holm, how coincidental. 19:23:50 i'm trying to figure out what i want to do, then i get distracted and i don't 19:23:55 cpressey: hmm, I have to do tail-call optimisation 19:24:01 bored through too many possibilities! 19:24:03 bugger, tree-walking will be a bit difficult 19:24:10 "There is no compiler, only a tree-walking interpreter. BTW, I do not think that there are many tree-walking interpreters out there that do tail call optimization. ArrowLISP does." 19:24:12 HOW CONVENIENT 19:24:18 although of course he's deleted the page. 19:24:23 just thread the tree 19:24:30 "just" 19:24:38 totally unhelpful sir 19:24:45 i don't know how that works out in this 19:24:53 wait, what do you mean by threading it? 19:25:06 a compiler may actually be easier than an interpreter 19:25:08 a la ichbins 19:25:21 in each node, attach a pointer to the "next" node in the evaluation sequence 19:25:31 *next 19:26:02 you're basically trampolining through the tree instead of walking it, after that 19:26:33 of course, at some points, you need to make decisions and/or store/restore savepoints 19:26:44 mostly just like a linear machine would 19:27:12 cpressey: i'm starting to think a compiler here would be the easiest thing 19:27:15 at any rate, i know you can do continuation-like/TCO-like stuff with a threaded tree, because i've done it before 19:27:25 I could even write it in Pixley (AIEEEEEEEE) 19:27:29 as long as the target language does what you want, is fine 19:27:36 -C 19:27:38 *->C 19:27:45 well, pixley with a wrapper to translate a bunch of symbols into a string 19:27:49 (that was why i did the tree threading when i did -- couldn't find a target language that i liked) 19:28:07 (abc def (lbrace)) -> "abcdef {" 19:28:22 hmm. that might be more than a little difficult 19:28:42 oh well, sounds fun anyway 19:28:52 i was thinking to just intern all symbols 19:28:55 although since it can't self-host without a wrapper, what's the point 19:29:01 cpressey: it needs symbol->string 19:29:16 wrt symbols: ichbins just makes them into C variables with a heap location as the value, iirc 19:29:21 or something 19:29:34 it can self-host without a wrapper, it's just ugly 19:30:16 if an interpreter literally embedded within an interpreter counts as self-hosting 19:30:45 cpressey: no, it can't, because it wouldn't be able to output the string 19:30:55 oh 19:31:01 sorry, misunderstood you 19:31:04 cpressey: because you have no string->symbol 19:31:08 right 19:31:32 you could use a postprocessor :) 19:31:40 uh 19:31:47 well, precisely, but then what is the point? 19:32:10 cpressey: my suggestion: 19:32:15 allow "..." but let it denote a symbol, not a string 19:32:20 (# (i (n (c (l (u (d (e (space (quote (s (t (d (i (o (quote (.... 19:32:30 cpressey: that's what i said 19:32:32 but 19:32:35 don't you mean . 19:32:36 :) 19:32:38 in the middle of those 19:32:55 alise: mine was funnier! 19:33:08 and uh 19:33:10 cpressey: since Pixley has no way of distinguishing symbols from any hypothetical string, 19:33:14 does pixley have (a . b)? i forget 19:33:17 "foo" denoting a symbol would be fine 19:33:22 cpressey: presumably it has cons 19:33:32 it has cons 19:33:37 same thing then 19:33:40 you can (cons (quote a) (quote b)) iirc 19:33:54 oh, that would be marvellous 19:34:34 what would? 19:34:39 "foo" being a symbol? 19:34:52 wait, ArrowLisp and Scheme 9... oh yeah, you said. 19:35:07 oh, that would be marvellous 19:35:07 what would? 19:35:07 "foo" being a symbol? 19:35:58 marvellous would be self-hosting a Pixley compiler in Pixley and having it output a huge sexp of (cons (quote ...)) which a postprocessor turns into a flat text file to feed to a compiler 19:36:12 marvellous in the gloriously gory sense 19:36:29 cpressey: unfortunately, i think Pixley is not expressive enough to write a compiler in 19:36:32 easily 19:36:38 not easily, no, i agree 19:37:03 have you read ichbins? wonderful. 19:37:06 maybe a simple compiler for some esolang 19:37:08 no i haven't 19:37:31 http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/icbins/icbins.tar.gz 19:37:33 rerm 19:37:34 erm 19:37:35 oops 19:37:37 http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/ichbins.tar.gz 19:37:57 Scheme-ish-subset (forget whether it's actually a proper subset of Scheme or not) to C compiler, very short. 19:38:06 googling it was not useful 19:38:17 see my links 19:38:42 -!- augur has joined. 19:38:52 yes, thx 19:38:56 well 19:38:57 see the latter 19:39:01 the former is bigger, and includes a compiler 19:39:04 erm 19:39:05 Darius Bacon, have I heard hat name before...? 19:39:06 and includes an interpreter 19:39:08 but not nearly as interesting 19:39:10 cpressey: probably 19:39:15 http://www.accesscom.com/~darius/ 19:39:31 heh he called a wiki ikiwiki 19:39:35 wonder if it came before the more famous one 19:39:47 *called some wiki software 19:39:55 cpressey: well, probably = maybe 19:41:38 i think I have, and he's clearly done a lot, although i can't pinpoint what it woul dhave been in association with. 19:43:18 anyway, ichbins' language is expressive enoug hthat expressing its more complicated constructs is no problem 19:43:24 pixley, being just below it, seems much harder 19:43:32 as it's the fundamental attributes that make compiling it hard, not the extra features 19:43:59 cpressey: OTOH, a Pixley->C compiler in some other language is utterly uninteresting 19:44:18 > 19:44:18 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:18 I'll only ask another 100 times. 19:44:18 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:18 I'll only ask another 99 times. 19:44:19 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:21 I'll only ask another 98 times. 19:44:23 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:25 I'll only ask another 97 times. 19:44:27 Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? 19:44:29 -- the result of ^D-spamming Scheme 48 19:45:40 alise: there were 2 minutes left before the 48 hours were up, so they decided to have some fun 19:47:43 alise: that uninterestingness, plus picoLisp, plus the desire to write simple beautiful C programs, led me to think of pixley interpreter in C, only 19:48:02 i didn't even consider self-hosting a Pixley compiler 19:48:30 cpressey: ah 19:48:40 you're right, doing it picolisp-style would be fun 19:49:09 it would have to be picoLisp-style. well not *have* to, but, yeah. 19:49:24 but more than my brain can handle right no 19:49:26 *now 19:49:53 cpressey: problem is picolisp style usually involves a different language :) 19:50:16 not sure i follow you. 19:50:24 alise: well, exiting after 100 consecutive EOFs makes more sense than asking every time 19:50:36 because if stdin actually /is/ at EOF or closed, you probably want to exit rather than hang indefinitely 19:50:46 ais523: but it's the interactive REPL! 19:50:59 you could be piping something into a REPL 19:51:07 cpressey: like the different nil structure 19:51:12 ais523: and get the 500 > > > > >s? 19:51:13 why? 19:51:13 or, say, communicating with it via netcat or something, and have broken the connection 19:51:21 no 19:51:24 because it prompts you 19:51:28 ok, if you break the connection I guess 19:51:48 what if your terminal ran out of disk space? 19:52:02 (it would be hilarious if that actually happened for some terminal) 19:52:38 lol 19:53:09 grr, why the fuck isn't netcat in the arch repositories? 19:53:19 it makes one angry 19:53:29 alise: are you looking for it under the name 'nc'? 19:53:33 no 19:53:45 it has GNU netcat, patched netcat, OpenBSD netcat, IPv6 netcat 19:53:50 No original Hobbit netcat 19:53:51 oh gah 19:54:44 lol nc110.tgz is a tarbomb 19:54:54 ais523: or maybe your teletype ran out of paper! 19:56:21 alise: I keep muddling tarbombs with zipbombs 19:56:47 it's crazy that two words with such similar etymology have such different meanings 19:58:18 It is freely given away to the Internet community in the hope that 19:58:18 it will be useful, with no restrictions except giving credit where it is due. 19:58:18 No GPLs, Berkeley copyrights or any of that nonsense. The author assumes NO 19:58:18 responsibility for how anyone uses it. 19:58:23 * alise wonders how valid that is 19:58:28 (it's in Netcat's readme) 19:58:34 *netcat's 19:59:51 very-free-content licences may have no effect at all in many countries 20:01:06 meanwhile, it always amuses me when BSD advocates get angry with someone sublicensing a derivative of their code as GPL 20:01:06 alise: In the US, and probably in other common-law countries, it is perfectly valid. 20:01:39 Because when the wording is unclear, intent takes precedence, and the intent is 100% obvious. 20:01:41 pikhq: the major argument against is based on contract law, rather than copyright law 20:01:53 ais523: what would you list the license as? 20:01:56 'netcat license'? 20:02:09 (as opposed to "GPL", "MPL" etc.) 20:02:10 contracts aren't enforceable at all unless they have benefits for both sides 20:02:13 alise: "attribution" 20:02:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:02:25 ais523: that's not a precise identifier, though 20:02:29 (I can put "unknown") 20:02:29 ais523: Except that copyright licenses are not contracts. 20:02:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:02:37 contracts aren't enforceable at all unless they have benefits for both sides ;; really? 20:02:40 how stupid 20:02:42 if you need the precise licence, copy the whole thing 20:02:49 alise: in the UK and US, at least 20:02:54 alise: Yes. Though "benefit" is somewhat vague. 20:02:58 The license under which the software is distributed. A licenses package has been created in [core] that stores common licenses in /usr/share/licenses/common, i.e. /usr/share/licenses/common/GPL. If a package is licensed under one of these licenses, the value should be set to the directory name, e.g. license=('GPL'). If the appropriate license is not included in the official licenses package, several things must be done: 20:02:59 The license file(s) should be included in: /usr/share/licenses/pkgname/, e.g. /usr/share/licenses/foobar/LICENSE. 20:02:59 If the source tarball does NOT contain the license details and the license is only displayed elsewhere, e.g. a website, then you need to copy the license to a file and include it. 20:03:00 Add custom to the license array. Optionally, you can replace custom with custom:name of license. Once a license is used in two or more packages in an official repository (including [community]), it becomes a part of the licenses package. 20:03:03 blurgh 20:03:49 For instance, trading $1 for your soul would be a perfectly valid contract if you could argue that a reasonable person aware of the full consequences would agree to it. 20:03:52 alise: it seems from that that it's a license that's only used by one project, so you should just add it to /usr/share/licenses 20:04:03 ais523: i've just given up on making a package for now 20:04:07 ETOOMUCHWORK 20:04:11 ENOPERSONALGAIN 20:04:13 (contracts in common-law are invalid if the terms are completely crazy) 20:04:13 pikhq: assuming that the law considers souls vaulable 20:04:15 *valuable 20:04:17 (it's not like nc110 will ever be UPDATED) 20:04:41 "unconsionable" contracts, ones that nobody sane would agree to, are rejected 20:04:51 ais523: Having any value at all? Well, that would depend on the opinion of the court. 20:04:53 but that's a different rule from the one stating that contracts must have consideration for both sides 20:04:59 pikhq: yes, as in any value at all 20:05:02 hmm, is there an opposite to -static? 20:05:04 -dynamic doesn't work 20:05:09 ais523: Yes. 20:05:10 -no-static? 20:05:26 nope 20:05:31 oh wiat 20:05:32 < ais523> meanwhile, it always amuses me when BSD advocates get angry with someone sublicensing a derivative of their code as GPL 20:05:32 wait 20:05:34 I can just do STATIC= 20:05:35 that amuses me too 20:05:41 there's a UK precedent somewhere that a crisp packet counts as sufficient value, especially as the contract in question was made in an attempt to encourage people to buy crisps 20:05:48 ais523: I don't mind people who do that, btw 20:05:52 although I won't incorporate their changes or anything 20:06:01 that makes sense too 20:06:20 and I probably won't appreciate them recommending their version to people e.g. on any mailing lists 20:06:30 but then that applies to any BSD-licensed derivatives I dislike, too 20:06:40 (as in, recommending it on a regular basis) 20:06:43 ais523: The standard for "counting as consideration" in contracts here is the US. Not legal precedent or anything, just common practice if you really don't want much of anything in return for it. 20:06:47 (without significant productive contributions) 20:06:58 pikhq: you mean USD, don't you? 20:07:04 ais523: Erm. 20:07:11 "Here in the US is $1" 20:07:14 That. 20:07:17 what about 1c? 20:07:17 yep 20:07:22 alise: Probably count. 20:07:28 alise: $1 is just what's normally done. 20:07:40 pikhq: there's a story where Feynman was offered one of those contracts and actually tried to claim the dollar 20:07:45 Yes, yes he did. 20:07:47 apparently people rarely bothered 20:07:48 I have a somewhat weird license question 20:07:54 And he was perfectly in the right to do so. 20:07:57 I agree 20:07:58 I have a brain tumour 20:08:04 I'd do the same. 20:08:08 (that can buy a soda!) 20:08:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:08:16 alise: if that's true, that's bad and seek medical attention immediately 20:08:18 I hope you're lying 20:08:33 ais523: I was trying to be vaguely witty wrt what cpressey said. 20:08:39 I think it would be hard for me to know that I have a brain tumour without an expert telling me so. 20:08:41 hmm, ok 20:08:43 Is it possible to dual-license something as both public domain, and MITL'ed? 20:08:48 cpressey: No. 20:08:50 MITL? 20:08:55 Public domain is the lack of copyright. 20:08:59 MIT license, or BSD license 20:09:07 cpressey: you can use something like the Creative Commons Public Domain Dedication 20:09:15 Though, it's arguable whether or not you can *actually do that* in the US. 20:09:23 which is an attempt to create a version of making things public domain that actually works 20:09:24 And it's genuinely impossible in some other countries. 20:09:28 pikhq: Not even if I make two otherwise-identical versions, copyright one, place the other in PD? 20:09:29 I like jQuery's license. Disjunction of MIT and GPL. Clearly a license choice made by somebody that has no friggin' clue. 20:09:39 cpressey: Not dual license then. 20:09:42 Gregor: Oh yes, much more amusement 20:09:44 Just coincidentally identical works. 20:09:46 Gregor: it makes sense if you think that the MIT license might not be binding for some reason 20:09:59 Gregor: "In other words... MIT?" 20:10:08 is statically linking against glibc ever a good idea? 20:10:17 alise: No. Not glibc. Other libcs, sure. 20:10:20 Gregor: xD 20:10:22 wrt jQuery 20:10:22 ais523: In other words... If you have no friggin' clue. 20:10:27 Gregor: yeah, it's just that nc tries to do it 20:10:40 pikhq: Maybe not technically a dual license, I agree. But the effect of one 20:10:43 alise: Glibc cannot be statically linked, basically. 20:10:49 statically linking a libc is very common on certain platforms 20:10:50 You can try, but you get a binary that dlopens stuff. 20:10:51 Probably back when nc was written, it was a less-bad idea :P 20:11:07 ok, here's my guide to compiling Hobbit netcat on Linux: in netcat.c, after the inclusion of fcntl.h, add the line [[#include ]]. Then [[make linux STATIC=]]. 20:11:07 but I agree that glibc is probably not very good at that 20:11:08 Done. 20:11:35 And what's the point of this? 20:11:35 # BLOCK 9 freq:1949 20:11:36 # PRED: 8 [50.0%] (true,exec) 20:11:36 perror (&" "[0]); 20:11:36 goto ; 20:11:36 # SUCC: 11 [100.0%] (fallthru,exec) 20:11:38 What the heck is this. 20:11:39 GNU netcat is whoot. 20:11:42 Gregor: no, it isn't 20:11:44 The source of my question was, I was wondering if there was a way to get around the fact that public domain isn't recognized in some countries. (in those countries, you can use the copyrighted version which grants you pretty-free copying rights instead.) 20:11:49 and even if I liked it, 20:11:55 I wouldn't use it, because I don't approve of stealing names like that 20:12:06 it's a blatant lifting of the name of another program 20:12:09 alise: Just like GNU cp stole UNIX cp's name? :P 20:12:11 like calling ReactOS "Windows" 20:12:12 perror(&" "[0]) means perror(" ") 20:12:13 I feel like zzo38 even asking, tho 20:12:30 Gregor: "netcat" with the basic CLI interface and options is not nearly as obvious as "cp x y" copying x to y. 20:12:34 netcat 20:12:43 alise: But it's intended to be. 20:12:45 netcat is a relatively well-known brand in unixy circles 20:12:47 Gregor: no, "nc" is 20:12:52 if you read the readme 20:12:54 not "netcat" 20:12:55 Err, true. 20:12:58 Fair point. 20:13:18 how many of the 676 two-lowercase-letter names have a reasonably standard meaning as commands on UNIX-like systems? 20:13:19 does anyone know what a file like netcat.c.193r.pro_and_epilogue is? 20:13:22 oh 20:13:22 Anyway, socat is better. 20:13:24 So who cares. 20:13:27 I think when I did -dynamic 20:13:31 one of them made it generate that crap 20:13:32 heh 20:14:04 anyone in here doing an entry for http://www.codequarterly.com/code-challenges/markup/ ? 20:14:30 I'll probably use Hobbit netcat 1.10 until the second coming of Jesus^W^W^W^WIPv6 is implemented; then I'll use an IPv6 patch on it. 20:14:38 Mathnerd314: not afaik 20:14:55 Mathnerd314: that looks boring 20:15:12 well, parsing using esolangs is probably hard 20:15:39 alise: IPv6 is implemented basically everywhere nowadays 20:15:51 even Windows (from Vista onwards) tries to use IPv6 where it can, and IPv4 only where it has to 20:15:53 ais523: yes, but nobody actually /uses/ it 20:15:58 the major issue is that ISPs don't support it 20:15:59 and most ISPs don't support it 20:16:03 making it irrelevant 20:16:13 I suspect we'll NAT ourselves to death before IPv6 ever happens 20:16:18 and it could be very, very bad 20:16:30 how long before we run out of NAT space? 20:16:44 NAT effectively gives us two more octets on our addresses 20:16:45 ais523: doesn't it effectively make one IP contain the entire IPv4 space? 20:17:03 and I'm not convinced that that's enough for the reasonable future 20:17:10 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:17:20 ais523: I bet we can make Super NAT. 20:17:32 alise: well, the next step onwards will probably be some sort of "static NAT" 20:17:41 ais523: IMO the "best thing" would be for a technological country like Japan to institute some legally-required IPv6 migration plan. 20:17:50 Hopefully it'd trickle to the rest of the world. 20:18:09 well, the entirety of Qatar is behind a NAT 20:18:10 I don't think the ISPs will do it on their own. 20:18:15 just the one NAT for the whole country 20:18:30 ais523: yeah, but they barely matter on the internet :P 20:18:38 presumably, if they get more than 65535 people trying to load web pages at once, they have to delay some of the requests 20:18:47 alise: that could be the reason why... 20:19:07 ais523: the only African country I see represented on the internet is South Africa 20:19:21 and Hiato is the only South African I've actually talked to on the internet, as far as I'm aware 20:19:28 where is Hiato anyway? he's fun 20:19:48 alise: it depends on which parts of the internet you go for 20:20:03 ais523: true 20:20:07 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:20:08 several third-world African countries, the Internet works via mobile phones, and is used for trade and farming information 20:20:14 ha, farming information 20:20:32 ais523: I know that mobile phones are ludicrously popular in Moscow 20:20:36 it's pretty important if the vast majority of your population are farmers 20:20:42 or at least, that's the impression I got from the single Moscow...ian I knew 20:20:51 Muscovite 20:20:55 (and that PCs aren't used nearly as much for the internet) 20:20:58 cpressey: Yes, but I'd already typed Moscwo! 20:21:00 *Moscow 20:21:01 Internet is especially important if the vast majority of your population are GOLD farmers. 20:21:03 (*Moskau) 20:21:21 muscovite sounds ickier 20:21:23 *Mosukau si 20:21:52 Moskau, fremd und geheimnisvoll. Türme aus rotem gold. Kalt wie das eis. 20:22:40 Tòitukò? 20:23:04 "Tòitukò?"? 20:23:08 German. 20:23:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQAKRw6mToA 20:23:34 (Perhaps more well-known for the mondegreen-subtitled English version.) 20:23:36 From German "Deutsch" and Japanese "語" (language) 20:25:42 (romanised by pikhq as "kò") 20:26:09 Romanised by normal people as? 20:26:13 "go" 20:26:18 Why, oh why, did the designers of irssi make the scroll wheel recall previous lines of text types, instead of scrolling the scrollback?? 20:26:23 *typed 20:26:26 In Hepburn, Kunreishiki, and Nihonshiki. 20:26:30 cpressey: that's your terminal 20:26:34 there is no "scrollwheel" control character 20:26:37 cpressey: in Konversation, it depends on where the mouse is 20:26:39 probably it is sending up and down 20:26:44 rather than pgup and pgdown 20:26:47 you may be able to configure this. 20:26:51 but yes, many terminals translate the scrollwheel into direction keys 20:26:52 alise: in a normal terminal, it scrolls 20:27:03 cpressey: yes, but that's using the real terminal's text scrollback 20:27:06 which can't work when using curses 20:27:09 I mean, in a terminal of mine hat isn't runing irssi 20:27:12 alise: The ` diacritic is a voicing mark for the mora, BTW. 20:27:12 pikhq: what is it pronounced like in English-phonetics? 20:27:15 cpressey: yes. 20:27:16 alise: "go". 20:27:16 cpressey: irssi uses curses. 20:27:21 Oh, so shall I blame curses? 20:27:24 cpressey: that terminal is on the secondary screen rather than the primary, though 20:27:25 cpressey: no. 20:27:26 cpressey: it's unavoidable 20:27:33 alise: Hepburn romanisation follows English phonetics. Always. 20:27:37 so there is no in-terminal scrollback 20:27:41 pikhq: quite convenient. :P 20:27:44 alise: It could send PgUp and PgDown instead of Up and Down 20:27:47 That's by design. 20:27:56 cpressey: sure. that'd break other things 20:27:57 what irrsi /could/ do would be to detect up-up-up faster than anyone can type, and convert it to pgup 20:28:05 Unfortunately, that means it *doesn't* follow Japanese perception of the phonemes at all. 20:28:12 * Sgeo_ just ate an orange 20:28:12 alise: Is there any way I can change it? 20:28:19 cpressey: maybe. what terminal? 20:28:27 Tell us all about your fruit-consumption! 20:28:27 Not bad for discussing Japanese words in English. Sucks for actually learning Japanese. 20:28:34 And yet, it's used for actually learning Japanese. 20:28:34 GNOME Terminal 2.24.1.1, apparently 20:29:02 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:29:11 Nihonshiki and kunreishiki are both closer to Japanese perception of things. 20:29:20 might need to run a better terminal :) 20:29:47 cpressey: gnome-terminal is fine. 20:30:06 (the main difference between the two being that nihonshiki retains a couple of distinctions that are now only made in *written* Japanese, not spoken (for Standard Japanese; some dialects retain this distinction)) 20:30:09 i don't know of any terminal which can actually configure it 20:30:16 Gah, I got to two dots on 66. 20:30:18 oklopol: how do you do 66 :| 20:30:55 No one cares either about my orangeness or noting how Gregor would note how no one cares? 20:31:26 Unfortunately, they all do things like marking geminate consonants by doubling the vowel, which can cause some ambiguity. 20:31:43 And fail horridly at unusual uses of kana. 20:32:40 um, trying to find how to make gnuplot plot a simple data series. As opposed to a function. Not having much luck. Anyone happens to know? The docs are huge. 20:33:24 rtfm 20:33:32 If you actually do the xterm-alike mouse support, the scroll wheel will send button 4/5 events, but I doubt irssi does mouse support. 20:33:33 Sgeo_: all you do is make me hungry 20:33:46 alise, as I said, docs are huge and I hoped someone here knew. Thanks 20:33:49 Mathnerd314, wish you could transfer some of that hunger to me 20:33:57 fizzie: and sideways mouse wheel is buttons 6 and 7 20:34:05 and I'm in a bit of a hurry 20:34:06 * Sgeo_ needs to eat more 20:34:22 Sgeo_: you can eat while not hungry. 20:34:32 Sgeo_: why do you need to eat more? 20:34:33 Vorpal: 'plot "datafile"' is the simplest thing you can do, but usually you need some options how you want it to be plotted. 20:34:38 (can't even romanise Okinawan with it. Bleeeeh) 20:34:45 Mathnerd314, I'm on the not particularly healthy side of thin 20:34:47 fizzie, ah, need to find docs on data file format 20:34:55 hm 20:35:16 Sgeo_: better to waste away than to grow morbidly obese 20:35:18 You can have scanf-style format strings, but by default tab-separated columns of numbers work fine. 20:35:27 Mathnerd314: said like a true anorexic 20:35:51 Vorpal: What's your data file "originally" like? 20:36:06 fizzie, a number of size\n