←2010-10-01 2010-10-02 2010-10-03→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:10:10 <cpressey> struct z { int a:0.5; int b:0.5; }
00:10:26 <cpressey> it's fair to say I can store the integer 0, and no other integers, in a
00:10:29 <cpressey> ditto b
00:10:55 <cpressey> it's also fair to say I can store the integers 0 and 1 in z, by the rules of C
00:11:28 <cpressey> but casting seems like cheating
00:11:56 <cpressey> anyway, that's as close as i'm going to attempt atm
00:13:34 <GreaseMonkey> what i'm thinking is if you can store 6 values in a and 5 values in b then you should be able to store 30 values... you could somehow base it off that idea
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00:37:53 <myndzi\> what's this conversation about again?
00:37:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
00:38:12 <myndzi> sounds like something i'm somewhat familiar with, but i can't extract a summary from the scrollback easily :P
00:38:22 <alise> fractional bits of information
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00:38:45 <myndzi> well yeah, but i mean, you just decided to talk about that or there was some specific thing (encoding, problem, whatever) that kicked it off?
00:39:03 <alise> just talking about fractals
00:39:06 <myndzi> ah
00:39:07 <alise> which have fractional dimensions
00:39:25 <myndzi> i should tell you guys about my script to encode binary data in mirc control codes
00:39:27 <myndzi> ;)
00:39:42 <myndzi> it only grows the size by 272%
00:39:45 <alise> no :P
00:39:50 <myndzi> which is pretty good considering the previous incarnation was like 400% :P
00:39:59 <pikhq> Why not just base64 it?
00:40:04 <myndzi> because that's visible
00:40:15 <myndzi> the point is to encode data but not clutter the screen with said data
00:40:23 <myndzi> (since the control codes are non printing characters)
00:40:23 <alise> myndzi: wouldn't work here alas, lame +c ;)
00:40:28 <myndzi> indeed
00:40:33 <pikhq> My system will display control codes.
00:40:34 <myndzi> how i hate that mode
00:40:35 <myndzi> ;)
00:40:41 <myndzi> pikhq: i'm sorry for your system
00:40:41 <myndzi> :P
00:41:03 <myndzi> anyway, it's the encoding that's interesting not its use (i haven't really made use of it since i never finished the script it was intended for)
00:41:05 <alise> pikhq: not mirc control codes
00:41:06 <alise> colours etc.
00:41:13 <pikhq> alise: Aaah.
00:41:18 <myndzi> maybe i should have said formatting codes
00:41:23 <pikhq> myndzi: Are mIRC control codes using the 8th bit of the 7-bit ASCII?
00:41:26 <myndzi> control was a poorly chosen word
00:41:30 <myndzi> nope
00:41:32 <myndzi> they are all <32
00:41:58 <myndzi> incidentally, that pesky 8th bit gives some fun results on misconfigured linux clients when used in conjunction with unicode ;)
00:42:09 <alise> invert/italics is tab, fun fun
00:42:20 <myndzi> some irc clients will pass the utf-8 data as-is but you can hide C2 control codes in valid UTF-8 values
00:42:23 <pikhq> My system will render many of those using inverse-color and the ^F^O^O notation, IIRC.
00:42:37 <myndzi> reverse (invert?) is 22
00:42:43 <myndzi> italics is new, but i thought it was not 9
00:42:53 <alise> hmm
00:42:53 <myndzi> anyway i'm not using mirc 7 yet so i don't have it included in my encoding
00:42:55 <alise> well ^I is something
00:42:58 <alise> konversation thinks it's italics
00:43:02 <alise> which causes ais523 no end of trouble
00:43:07 <myndzi> ^i is tab
00:43:14 <myndzi> on mirc 6.5 at least
00:43:14 <alise> yes
00:43:17 <alise> but at least one client thinks it's italics
00:43:21 <myndzi> mirc isn't the only client to implement its own stuff
00:43:30 <alise> true.
00:43:32 <myndzi> virc(?) has rgb color codes
00:43:39 <pikhq> That said, using control codes is pretty silly in general.
00:43:39 <myndzi> maybe xircon, i forget which
00:43:49 <myndzi> well, yeah, but they can come in useful sometimes i guess
00:44:01 <pikhq> And evil if it's XON or XOFF. :P
00:44:02 <myndzi> my rule of thumb is to avoid them in "public"
00:44:23 <myndzi> not as evil as sending telnet codes that do fun things to people using telnet :)
00:44:41 <myndzi> or using my utf-8 trick to issue arbitrary ansi codes to someone's terminal
00:44:41 <myndzi> hehe
00:44:53 <myndzi> anyway, what i WAS talking about was my encoding
00:45:06 <myndzi> originally i just took the easy way out and used ^kN,NN or ^kNN
00:45:12 <myndzi> for 3-digit decimal or 2-digit decimal values
00:45:18 <myndzi> this is obviously not very efficient
00:45:19 <pikhq> My rule of thumb is that all text on the Internet should be valid UTF-8, and normalised using NFC.
00:45:28 <zzo38> myndzi: See if that trick works on my terminal, or if PuTTY will remove overlong encodings (if that is what you are doing?)
00:45:32 <zzo38> I don't know
00:45:49 <myndzi> zzo38: i'll look it up, lemme finish typing
00:46:01 <myndzi> for one, mirc has more than just ^k
00:46:18 <myndzi> and for another, ^k has like 7 valid distinct uses
00:46:36 <myndzi> i wound up creating a script to find how many permutations of valid color code sequences could be had from N bytes
00:46:44 <myndzi> color/formatting code, i mean
00:46:59 <zzo38> Normal ASCII escape codes will just be reformatted by PHIRC, though
00:47:09 <myndzi> one byte could be any of the single byte values, or you could have 2, 3, 4, 6, or 7 byte color codes
00:47:35 <myndzi> i did that wrong... 2, 3, 5, 6
00:47:40 <zzo38> Also my client deliberately does not parse IRC color codes
00:47:41 <myndzi> anyway
00:47:59 <myndzi> then i found one that came close to a similar amount of values as a binary bit border
00:48:11 <myndzi> and learned that i could get an extra bit if i used it twice
00:48:25 <pikhq> zzo38: Reasonable decision, actually.
00:48:30 <myndzi> so it's pretty close to in synch with binary, would take a lot of extra work to approach the limit which isn't much less than 272%
00:48:43 <myndzi> so now the values depend on the codes, as well as the pattern of their ordering
00:48:55 <myndzi> it's pretty neat :)
00:49:00 <myndzi> ok, the utf-8 thing
00:49:24 <zzo38> (It just displays color codes using the notation it normally uses for control characters, which is uppercase letter, black on magenta background)
00:49:56 <myndzi> it's C1 not C2, silly me
00:49:58 <zzo38> It will parse some control codes used commonly on IRC, though, if /SET FORMAT +
00:50:12 <myndzi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#C1_.28ISO_8859_and_Unicode.29
00:50:21 <zzo38> I don't know whether C1 control codes are enabled in PuTTY
00:50:22 <myndzi> any of those can be embedded as the second byte of a utf-8 sequence
00:50:31 <zzo38> Or, if there is a way to turn them off
00:50:37 <myndzi> most irc clients screen out terminal codes but they let this one pass because they see it as valid utf-8
00:50:53 <myndzi> that's what linux foos get for bitching about people fucking up their screen... eventually i get curious and find what happened and then they get exploited ;)
00:52:00 <myndzi> so i guess 155 is the ansi code thing
00:52:10 <myndzi> 194 155 followed by an ansi sequence should do it
00:52:46 <zzo38> Is there a mode to disable C1 escape codes?
00:52:50 <myndzi> ›30;40m black on black(?)
00:52:56 <zzo38> (PHIRC doesn't actually know anything about UTF-8)
00:53:02 <myndzi> dunno, guess it would depend on your terminal configuration
00:53:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, you could normalise your Unicode.
00:53:12 <myndzi> then you should be fine, since it'll only see the C1 code and block it
00:53:45 <zzo38> myndzi: That did not change the color. I can see a block followed by "30;40m" and the text
00:53:57 <myndzi> yeah
00:53:59 <zzo38> So I can see it is fine
00:54:06 <pikhq> myndzi: ^[30;40m
00:54:08 <myndzi> i might have done it wrong, i kinda f orget
00:54:18 <myndzi> but anyway, that symbol is not the same as ctrl+[
00:54:22 <pikhq> Weird.
00:54:38 <myndzi> it is a C1 code that can also be used to introduce ansi codes
00:54:39 <zzo38> You normally do escape and a left square bracket, that is the CSI code
00:54:49 <myndzi> i successfully spoofed my nick to a vulnerable client while testing once
00:54:51 <zzo38> In C1 though, CSI code is a single character
00:54:59 <myndzi> yeah
00:55:39 <myndzi> i always wondered why it was esc then [ when i was a kid
00:55:42 <pikhq> Moral of the story: actually parse your damned text right. :P
00:55:45 <myndzi> but now i know it is because esc is ctrl+[
00:55:54 <myndzi> pikhq: well that's the thing, the irc client IS parsing the text correctly
00:55:58 <myndzi> but
00:56:15 <myndzi> the irc client thinks the terminal can display utf-8
00:56:21 <myndzi> when the terminal actually cannot or is not configured to
00:57:18 <pikhq> myndzi: (Esc+[)3 is... not a valid UTF-8 sequence.
00:57:49 <myndzi> that's not what i sent
00:57:57 <myndzi> i sent 194 155, which is valid utf-8
00:58:10 <myndzi> but 155 is also C1 for CSI introducer
00:58:15 <pikhq> Ah, yeah. It is.
00:58:40 <myndzi> reminds me sorta of another fun bug i found once
00:58:44 <zzo38> It is up to the terminal program to parse UTF-8 codes (or whatever other encoding it is configured to use), so if a malformed UTF-8 code is sent with a ASCII control character immediately after a UTF-8 begin code, PHIRC will convert it to escape codes before the terminal sees it
00:58:55 <myndzi> certain versions of psybnc were vulnerable to a weird thing that let you basically spoof messages from the irc server
00:59:32 <myndzi> zzo38: ...wat?
00:59:50 <myndzi> that seems like undesirable behavior; i mean, it is a legit utf-8 code and should not be interpreted as a control code
00:59:51 <zzo38> You tried C1 codes, now try sending an overlong encoding of the C0 escape codes, to see if this program will block it.
01:00:13 <myndzi> i don't know what you are referring to by that
01:00:21 <pikhq> myndzi: What's the actual Unicode code point for that combination?
01:00:37 <myndzi> it might be undefined haha, i don't know, but it still shouldn't be taken to be an escape code
01:00:38 <zzo38> myndzi: But multi-byte UTF-8 codes never contain 7-bit ASCII codes.
01:00:51 <pikhq> myndzi: Unicode code point: the number it decodes to.
01:00:55 <myndzi> it's not 7-bit ascii
01:00:57 <zzo38> The high bit is set to indicate it is a UTF-8 code.
01:00:59 <myndzi> oh
01:01:01 <myndzi> it would be umm
01:01:17 <pikhq> Doesn't matter if it's not assigned. :)
01:01:37 <myndzi> 10011011
01:01:43 <myndzi> it actually decodes to 155
01:01:50 <pikhq> U+155?
01:01:59 <myndzi> guess so
01:02:20 <myndzi> i don't know if it was important that it do so anymore
01:02:37 <pikhq> Erm, no; the Unicode code points are usually listed in hex. Anyways.
01:02:50 <zzo38> (Sometimes a null character is encoded using overlong encoding so that you can have embedded nulls in a string that is used in a program that uses null terminated strings)
01:04:02 <pikhq> That's U+9B. "CONTROL SEQUENCE INTRODUCER".
01:04:43 <myndzi> oh, right
01:04:46 <myndzi> sorry :P
01:04:48 <pikhq> So: the client should *probably* be removing that anyways.
01:04:59 <myndzi> i didn't know that it actually encoded to that value haha
01:05:10 <myndzi> but i guess you could change it to whatever you wanted
01:05:15 <myndzi> by mangling the first few bits
01:05:19 <myndzi> the first byte could be many things
01:05:23 <pikhq> Apparently, 0x00 through 0xFF are from Latin-1.
01:05:36 <myndzi> makes sense
01:05:42 <myndzi> i think i knew that, actually
01:05:56 <myndzi> i'm not sure why i chose 194, maybe i forgot what the bug was about
01:06:03 <myndzi> it could be that the client was just decoding it and not blocking it
01:06:32 <myndzi> zzo38: i see... sorta. by overlong, you mean a utf-8 value that doesn't need 3 bytes but uses 3, for example?
01:06:47 <myndzi> like
01:06:51 <myndzi> 11000000 10000000
01:07:17 <myndzi> <-null?
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01:07:24 <myndzi> it didn't decode here haha
01:08:21 <pikhq> Got rendered as though it were Latin-1 here.
01:08:34 <pikhq> (typical for handling invalid UTF-8)
01:18:08 <myndzi> same
01:44:13 <zzo38> I just got a shaded block, it is what this program does for invalid codes, I think
01:44:36 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes that is what I mean by overlong encodings
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02:27:26 <Sgeo> Hmm
02:27:37 <Sgeo> On the one hand, the system didn't just roll over and give me someone else's grades
02:28:07 <Sgeo> On the other hand, it did display an error message with a stack trace, and my understanding is that that's the wrong way to configure web services
02:42:17 <alise> Axioms!
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02:47:55 <Sgeo> I don't know if this is accurate, but I just described Objective-C as a mashup of Smalltalk and C, and that the whole is less than the sum of its parts
02:48:04 * Sgeo just added "(Note: I never learned Objective-C, so that last thought is possibly unfounded)"
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02:53:36 <alise> Sgeo: objective-c is an alright language.
02:53:44 <alise> it's not creative but it's well-designed
02:53:53 <alise> and it inherits smalltalk's excellent object model
02:54:38 <Sgeo> TBH, I've kind of fallen in love with CLOS-style object models
02:54:48 * Sgeo prepares to be slapped
02:55:55 <alise> You have never fallen in love with anything.
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02:56:09 * oerjan swats Sgeo -----###
02:56:32 <alise> You make sideways glances at the cleavage of languages over the period of a few days. :P
02:59:43 <Gregor> *sidelong
03:02:27 <Sgeo> "Do you have any other interests besides programming?" "I like to read and watch fiction"
03:03:01 * Sgeo is in full-on giggle mode
03:03:07 <alise> It's funny because to me the word fiction means novels because I don't know what words mean
03:03:55 <Sgeo> No, I'm laughing because it's a very general statement that applies to pretty much everyone
03:04:40 <Sgeo> Well, not to illiterate persons before TV I guess
03:06:01 <pikhq> Sgeo: Then it's going to be s/read/listen to/
03:06:30 <pikhq> Plays used to be popular entertainment, you know. As well as story-telling.
03:10:43 <alise> pikhq: I just wish we had Hamlet on the TV every day. :P
03:12:07 <Sgeo> Um, WTF
03:13:27 <Sgeo> Why is webchat.freenode.net down?
03:14:40 <Gregor> Because you touch yourself at night.
03:15:30 * Sgeo feels sorry for anyone who won't allow themselves to
03:16:27 <alise> ...
03:16:27 <alise> dude
03:16:32 <alise> Gregor's joke is meant to be sexual
03:16:33 <alise> it's a cliche
03:16:37 <Sgeo> I know
03:16:39 <alise> you ... you just ... lose
03:16:49 <Sgeo> But last time Gregor said something like that, and I responded, you called me out
03:16:58 <pikhq> I ♥ clichés.
03:17:00 <pikhq> And Unicode.
03:17:08 <pikhq> Definitely ♥ Unicode.
03:17:34 <oerjan> I ? Unicode too *ducks*
03:17:53 <Sgeo> I ♥ the compose key
03:17:56 <Gregor> I ♥ diæresis marks and ligatures. I can never think of a word with a diæresis when I need one ...
03:18:05 <Sgeo>
03:18:24 <Sgeo> ...
03:18:32 <Sgeo> ………
03:18:42 <Sgeo> Good way to tell if you're using fixed-width or not
03:19:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Fix your encoding you fool.
03:19:20 <alise> pikhq: No! It is integral that oerjan sees Unicode as ?.
03:19:23 <alise> It is part of our culture.
03:19:24 <pikhq> Gregor: You naïve simpleton.
03:19:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Fix your sarcasm-detector you fool.
03:19:26 <alise> Our culture is a shabby one.
03:19:39 <alise> oerjan does actually see unicode as ?
03:19:51 <Gregor> pikhq: I can never think of a /contextuälly-relevant/ diæresis when I need one.
03:20:02 <pikhq> Gregor: ⁵
03:20:20 <alise> presumably pikhq was meaning that oerjan should fix the encoding he *sees*, not sends, and Gregor misinterpreted this
03:20:25 <alise> the more you know ****************=>
03:20:30 <alise> wait
03:20:33 <alise> ===========================*
03:20:34 <alise> there
03:20:49 <Sgeo> What a big-ass encyclopedia. What a big ass-encyclopedia. What a big assencyclopædia
03:21:20 <pikhq> What a bigassencyclopædia.
03:21:29 <Gregor> The Encyclopedia Copronomicon
03:22:05 <alise> *Coppro-nomicon
03:22:10 <Gregor> X-D
03:22:10 <alise> ...
03:22:13 <alise> Coppro-nomic-on
03:22:16 <alise> coppro plays nomic
03:22:19 <alise> OMG SONCPIRACY
03:22:22 <alise> ...
03:22:25 <alise> son c piracy
03:22:28 <alise> son coppro piracy
03:22:28 <Gregor> OMG SONGPIRACY
03:22:31 <alise> coppro is someone's son
03:22:36 <alise> coppro is a member of the pirate party
03:22:39 <Gregor> We don't know that.
03:22:42 <alise> OMG THE COINCIDENCES
03:22:49 <alise> ITS SO METAPHYSIC
03:23:02 <alise> Gregor: Yes... yes we do :P
03:23:42 <oerjan> through long and tortured logic
03:25:33 <alise> I wonder if Eliezer Yudkowsky writing fanfiction is somehow using my brain power as CPU for the seed AI he's designed.
03:25:40 <alise> *Yudkowsky's fanfiction
03:39:50 <Gregor> http://www.gnu.org/software/plotutils/ : GNU totally does not name things in intentionally ambiguous ways.
03:40:14 <pikhq> Groan.
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03:42:33 <alise> Plotu tils! Plo Tutils!
03:42:52 <augur> alise: Tutils of the Palestinian Liberation Organization?
03:42:56 <alise> Yes.
03:42:58 <augur> :o
03:43:04 <augur> IRA Tutils!
03:44:29 <oerjan> they're quite IRAte
03:46:17 <alise> IRA Tutus
03:51:58 <oerjan> don't mess with my tutus
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04:01:45 <Sgeo> Hmm, I only need to do one problem for this chapter
04:01:53 <Sgeo> One of the choices is knapsack stuff
04:01:57 <Sgeo> How hard could it be?
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04:02:58 <alise> NP?
04:03:15 <alise> ("HOW HARD" "NP" IS FUNNY, NO MATTER -- SO SHUT UP)
04:03:24 <alise> (DO NOT SAY "BUT NP-HARD")
04:04:01 <alise> Well, technically I made no errors anyway. A joke well-executed.
04:07:45 <zzo38> My idea of a way of UTF-8 parsing: [Step 1] Control characters [Step 2] Decode numbers [Step 3] Unicode to unicode conversion [Step 4] Render output
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04:08:49 <oerjan> alise: except for the error of a paranoid implosion?
04:09:55 <alise> oerjan: Implicatory! Verisimilitude was EXTINCT; by then, at least.
04:10:51 <oerjan> implicatorial sesquipedalism
04:14:32 <alise> oerjan: Well, aren't we the orthodontist! Stricken, quickly, he fell; his loquaciousness now evaporated, he graduated losing, summa cum laude, and expired.
04:16:38 * oerjan straightens alise's teeth with the saucepan ===\__/
04:18:37 <alise> oerjan: I created your being; post hoc ergo propter hoc axiomatic, fallacies embedded into the velvet that defines you, it; machinery whirrs and purrs and ASCII saucepans confers.
04:18:44 -!- alise has left (?).
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04:18:47 <alise> Whoops.
04:20:44 <Sgeo> All homework done
04:21:15 * oerjan confers with his saucepan ===\__/ *OUCH*
04:22:29 <Gregor> Good thing about tex4ht: Makes fairly-nice HTML output from LaTeX.
04:22:42 <Gregor> Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ...
04:24:22 <zzo38> Are there C compilers that cannot turn off trigraphs inside of a string? If there are some common ones, it might be necessary to add a option to Enhanced CWEB to tell it to change ? in a string to \? (and also to replace high characters with their escape sequence, if that might also be necessary)
04:26:56 <Gregor> Fecking trigraphs X_X
04:27:05 <Gregor> Most C compilers have the ability to turn off trigraphs /entirely/
04:28:44 <Gregor> (In GCC they're off unless you ask for them)
04:29:07 * Sgeo vaguely hopes he doesn't get in trouble for the ticket he just submitted
04:29:18 <Sgeo> "I recently received an error message. The cause isn't important (I was experimenting
04:29:18 <Sgeo> to see if I could do something I shouldn't be able to, but was unable to do it),..."
04:29:42 <Gregor> "I'm a white-hat hacker."
04:29:45 <Gregor> "He's a hacker, lock 'im up!"
04:29:46 <alise> <Gregor> Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ...
04:29:51 <alise> ... and I still can't find anywhere to put the body.
04:30:44 <Sgeo> o.O
04:30:47 <Sgeo> How did he die?
04:30:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: Doesn't say.
04:31:01 <Gregor> Well, "unexpectedly"
04:31:12 <Gregor> How often does somebody young enough to be writing tex4ht die expectedly though :P
04:35:41 <alise> He died from latex poisoning.
04:35:48 * alise runs to #ubuntu ->
04:35:53 <alise> OERJAN CAN'T CATCH M--
04:37:30 <zzo38> If needed, you could create a TeX macro package that allows output to both DVI and HTML (and possibly also XML and other formats too if required)
04:42:32 <oerjan> u run thru #ubuntu
04:44:48 <Gregor> zzo38: Yes, that's what tex4ht is :P (AFAIK)
04:47:57 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't think so. (And I think tex4ht is designed for LaTeX, anyways) What I meant is writing a macro package that you use commands in it that can make it work for both DVI and HTML and other formats output.
04:50:58 <alise> Gregor: So if you don't use LaTeX, watch out!
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04:54:55 <pikhq> Ah, trigraphs. The only thing worse than digraphs.
04:55:21 <pikhq> Actually. Digraphs aren't *that* bad.
04:55:28 <pikhq> Trigraphs are just head-poundingly awful.
04:55:59 <zzo38> TeX trigraphs are very useful, even though C trigraphs are bad and useless.
04:56:22 <pikhq> C digraphs are handled during tokenization, unlike trigraphs.
04:56:26 <Gregor> The only thing worse and monographs.
04:56:28 <pikhq> Making them automatically an improvement.
04:56:52 <pikhq> (yes, trigraphs are basically done via sed before compilation)
04:56:59 <Gregor> s/and/are/ X_X
04:57:36 <Gregor> s/are/is/? Idonno, that whole sentence was grammatically dubious.
04:57:44 <Gregor> Also, nonsense.
04:58:08 <zzo38> Yes, I do suppose C digraphs are better than C trigraphs in that way.
04:58:59 <pikhq> Digraphs at least don't cause completely unexpected parses.
05:00:16 <zzo38> But TeX trigraphs are a bit different, because you can use them for many purposes and you can even change how trigraphs are parsed by changing the category codes.
05:03:12 <zzo38> For example, the utfeight.tex program will convert numbers to hex and then make them into trigraphs send to output file, and then input them again (this time TeX will parse the trigraphs), in order to make definitions for all active characters which can be used as part of UTF-8 codes.
05:06:16 <augur> lovely quote from wikipedia
05:06:20 <augur> "more realistically, CERN's Large Hadron Collider is the subject of a CERN-produced rap video"
05:06:46 <zzo38> I want to make a variant of TeX in one day when I get a chance to do so. What programs would I need to do so? One change I want to add is to make a new trigraph which forces the next character to be treated as a certain character code. For example ^^xd? will make a ? which is a active character.
05:07:51 <zzo38> Another change I want to make is removing the \outer command.
05:09:02 <zzo38> And adding new kind of definitions, such as \idef \progdef \catdef
05:09:23 <alise> augur: more realistic than what? :P
05:09:49 <augur> i dont know!
05:09:50 <alise> what does \outer do zzo38?
05:10:04 <augur> more realistic than Stephen Hawking MCing maybe
05:10:22 <zzo38> alise: The \outer command prevents a command from occuring as part of a macro expansion.
05:11:00 <zzo38> (It can be worked around using \write and \input although I think it is better that the \outer command is not there at all)
05:11:49 <zzo38> Another thing I want is to allow \long to be prepended to the use of a macro instead of only allowing it prepending a definition of a macro.
05:16:25 <Sgeo> GAHAHAHAHAH
05:16:30 <Sgeo> NEED SWAP SPACE
05:16:35 * Sgeo cries
05:18:18 <zzo38> And a way to read in a list, box, and tokens, in ways that they can then be processed by other TeX codes. And a command \glueset to access the glue set value of a box.
05:21:02 <alise> Goodnight. Bye.
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05:31:36 <zzo38> Such as: \convbox<hboxmacro><vboxmacro><charactermacro><gluemacro><penaltymacro><mathonmacro><mathoffmacro><kernmacro><the_box> or something like that.
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05:59:05 <zzo38> Trigraphs in TeX are even usable to create trigraphs, example: \message{^^5e^5e} --> ^
06:00:00 <zzo38> \message{^^5e^5e^21} --> !
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07:48:54 <coppro> Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party
07:54:11 <zzo38> What do you have to do if you are a member?
07:54:23 <coppro> nothing
07:55:06 <zzo38> What is the meaning of being a member, then?
07:55:18 <coppro> though I think they're going to try to have me chair the online meetings on the basis that I seem to be good at this thin (they're not the online ones. The president of the math society at waterloo wanted me installed as speaker after she'd known me for a week and a half)
07:55:24 <coppro> to indicate support
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07:56:15 <zzo38> So maybe in future...?
07:57:01 <zzo38> coppro: O, did you ever read mathNEWS?
07:58:23 <coppro> zzo38: how do you know of mathNEWS?
07:59:15 <coppro> zzo38: also, being a member carries benefits that you might expect of any similar organization - I have a vote
07:59:19 <zzo38> I don't remember where/when I first figured out about it, or how.
07:59:47 <coppro> you've never been to UW?
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08:01:05 <zzo38> I have never been to UW.
08:01:46 <coppro> anyways, yes, I know of mathNEWS. I even wrote two articles in the most recent issue and contributed a significant portion of the profQUOTES
08:02:02 <zzo38> OK
08:04:13 <zzo38> What did you write about?
08:05:38 <zzo38> (Actually, I found a copy of the articles now and I think I know which one you might have written)
08:06:38 <coppro> which?
08:07:19 <coppro> also, lol someone who reads the website..
08:07:36 <coppro> I assume that you know then about the E is for Idiot issue?
08:08:15 <zzo38> Did you write the article titled "Reminder: Games Nights Exist"? (I guess based on the information I have)
08:08:37 <coppro> correct, that was one
08:08:58 <coppro> that one should also be obvious if you /whois me
08:09:30 <zzo38> Yes I did use the WHOIS command. I also saw "coppro!~scshunt" so I guess, and then did WHOIS to check more
08:11:27 <zzo38> I do not know about the E is for Idiot issue. What is the date for that issue?
08:14:15 <coppro> dunno
08:14:26 <coppro> in it there was an article entitled E is for Idiot, that got them sued
08:14:37 <coppro> because apparently it was defamatory
08:15:04 <coppro> they settled on posting an apology to their website, which they consider doing almost nothing because the website is not designed to be useful
08:15:12 <coppro> and so virtually no one reads it
08:16:15 <coppro> incidentally, pencil policy is hilariou
08:16:17 <coppro> *hilarious
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08:30:28 <zzo38> I have a question about your opinion about code generation in Enhanced CWEB using interpreted C codes. The question is what commands you would find useful to be built-in that can be accessed by C interpreter, for code generation?
08:31:24 <coppro> recompiling a specific function
08:32:17 <zzo38> Can you give an example?
08:32:54 <coppro> well, suppose I have a function and change its definition; it would be nice to tell the compiler to recompile it
08:33:01 <coppro> for simple functions, even from within the interpreter itself
08:36:29 <zzo38> I don't quite understand. Can you give a more specific example of what you are trying to do?
08:48:08 <zzo38> The C compiler does not work that way? Enhanced CWEB cannot change the way the C compiler works!
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10:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:25:06 <ais523> 0.005646564 bits according to my calculator ← does lambdabot not do logs?
10:08:02 <Phantom_Hoover> @type log
10:08:03 <lambdabot> forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a
10:08:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um, anything wrong with using a calculator still?
10:09:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it requires that you reach for the calculator and hit buttons on that, then type the result into the channel.
10:09:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he didn't say he meant a physical calculator. Could have been dc or such
10:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
10:10:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah, well some other computer based calculator then
10:12:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you know that bc was traditionally implemented in dc?
10:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I do.
10:12:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and bc has log
10:12:32 <Vorpal> while I can't find it in dc
10:12:38 <Vorpal> this scares me
10:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> As part of an extra library which IIRC is written in bc.
10:13:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, still, writing an infix calculator in bc is probably indicative of multiple things in DSM
10:13:45 <Vorpal> err
10:13:47 <Vorpal> "in dc"
10:13:49 <Vorpal> of course
10:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt profoundly that bc was ever written in raw dc.
10:14:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean then
10:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> dc doesn't have anything near the I/O capabilities.
10:15:05 <Vorpal> from wikipedia:
10:15:07 <Vorpal> As an example, here is an implementation of the Euclidean algorithm to find the GCD:
10:15:07 <Vorpal> dc -e '??[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+p' # shortest
10:15:07 <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
10:15:13 <Vorpal> XD
10:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> ? doesn't read a line of input, it executes a line of input.
10:16:02 <Vorpal> hm
10:16:06 <Vorpal> it seems to work anyawy
10:16:08 <Vorpal> anyway*
10:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you have ?P it doesn't echo the line, it executes it and prints the top of the stack.
10:16:35 <Vorpal> it doesn't have ?P, it has P?
10:16:44 <Vorpal> but hm
10:16:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Same differene.
10:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *difference
10:17:29 <Vorpal> not at all, the P prints a prompt there
10:17:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The point is that dc doesn't actually have a command to read a line of input and push it onto the stack.
10:18:30 <Vorpal> hm okay
10:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Typing "Hello, world!" into ?P just spits out a load of errors.
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10:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Numbers push themselves when evaluated, so you can use it for them if you don't mind exposing your program to unbuffered code.
10:21:15 <Vorpal> hm
10:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I would think bc would use dc behind the scenes when calculating things, and do parsing and such in C.
10:22:20 * Phantom_Hoover → stuff
10:22:22 <Vorpal> or some other language
10:22:26 <Vorpal> such as shell
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15:02:24 <alise> 23:48:54 <coppro> Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party
15:02:24 <alise> pretty sure he meant the male part
15:02:28 <alise> 23:54:11 <zzo38> What do you have to do if you are a member?
15:02:28 <alise> 23:54:23 <coppro> nothing
15:02:28 <alise> 23:55:06 <zzo38> What is the meaning of being a member, then?
15:02:28 <alise> lol
15:03:12 <alise> 23:59:47 <coppro> you've never been to UW?
15:03:12 <alise> i think he's in high school
15:04:11 <alise> coppro: this "mathNEWS" is hopelessly shoddy --
15:04:13 <alise> "Indeed, vi is nothing more than a wrapper script for the command ex, which is itself a wrapper for ed"
15:04:37 <cheater99> it is, though
15:04:43 <alise> no it isn't
15:04:45 <cheater99> so i'm not sure what u mean
15:04:53 <cheater99> OF COURSE IT IS
15:04:58 <cheater99> and ed is a wrapper for cat
15:04:59 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l $(which vi)
15:05:00 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi
15:05:00 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/vi
15:05:00 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:00 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:00 <alise> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 754744 2010-04-16 14:33 /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:02 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/ex
15:05:04 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/ex -> /etc/alternatives/ex
15:05:06 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/ex
15:05:08 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/ex -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:10 <alise> ex is a *symlink* to vi on most systems.
15:05:16 <alise> not a wrapper script. and not the other way around
15:05:19 <cheater99> yes
15:05:22 <cheater99> that's because they did
15:05:24 <alise> and furthermore ex is an entirely separate editor, nothing to do with ed, merely inspired by it
15:05:25 <cheater99> mv ex vi
15:05:41 <cheater99> also they did mv ex ed
15:05:46 <alise> cheater99: if you're trying to troll, it's incredibly boring and obvious; if you're actually serious, you're just stupid
15:05:53 <alise> (if you're trying to make a joke, it isn't funny)
15:06:00 <cheater99> how could you ever think i was serious with that?
15:07:05 <cheater99> i'm trying to reconstruct the thought process
15:07:19 <alise> well, you've said similarly silly things before :)
15:07:21 <cheater99> was it "wow, that guy cheater99 TOTALLY doesn't know the difference between ed and ex!"
15:07:22 <cheater99> ?
15:07:30 <alise> for a second :P
15:07:37 <cheater99> trolled!
15:07:37 <alise> also, i'm *fairly* sure they're just
15:07:39 <cheater99> :P
15:07:43 <alise> (a) using a lenient definition of "script", and
15:07:57 <alise> (b) apparently not required to actually look at ex to decide what it does
15:08:12 <cheater99> no, they're just trolling too.
15:08:17 <alise> (The whole article is an unfunny joke; it provides an "implementation" of ed in Python that just reads input up until a "q" and outputs ?.)
15:08:24 <cheater99> also, vim is just a wrapper around vi with some added bash scripts
15:08:26 <alise> I'm fairly sure the introductory sentences are serious.
15:08:32 <cheater99> and emacs is a wrapper around screen and vim.
15:09:06 <cheater99> and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp
15:09:24 <cheater99> however, lisp is a wrapper around haskell, and haskell is a wrapper around erlang
15:09:29 <cheater99> no one has solved that problem yet
15:11:40 <alise> erlang is also a wrapper around BANCStar
15:13:38 <alise> coppro: ok i take it back, prof quotes more than makes up for it (i will not support your insipid logotype capitalisation)
15:13:58 <alise> hmm i seem to use insipid to mean much more than it actually does :)
15:15:16 <alise> "I was giving a tour of the observatory one day and ended up explaining how the stars are actually like the Sun, just really far away. It was great to catch people up from the 15th century." ;; i have had to do this more than i would like
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15:23:31 <alise> oerjanerer
15:23:47 * oerjan oerjaneers
15:27:49 <cheater99> alise: see, you got the hang of it
15:28:45 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:28:51 <cheater99> haha
15:29:08 <alise> Huh, apparently MI2's soundtrack WAS actually designed for MT-32.
15:29:16 <alise> Maybe it's just the intro music that sounds a bit odd.
15:30:36 <cheater99> roland mt-32?
15:30:38 <cheater99> really?
15:30:45 <HackEgo> No output.
15:30:50 <alise> cheater99: sure, just like the MI1 soundtrack
15:30:55 <alise> and all the Space Quest soundtracks
15:31:03 <cheater99> oh, i was thinking mission impossible 2
15:31:05 <cheater99> not monkey island
15:31:06 <alise> lawl
15:31:09 <cheater99> yeah, i know about monkey island
15:31:13 <oerjan> <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version <-- IF YOU SAY SO
15:31:16 <alise> Space Quest -- was it 5? -- even showed "SPACE QUEST" or something on the MT-32's LCD.
15:31:20 <alise> I have an actual MT-32.
15:31:24 <cheater99> haha nice
15:31:25 <alise> Unfortunately: hard to wire up to a computer. Very hard.
15:31:31 <cheater99> do you have a roland sound canvas?
15:31:34 <cheater99> why is it hard?
15:31:35 <alise> And the analogue background noise is endearing but noticeable.
15:31:41 <alise> cheater99: no, I don't; and because it just has audio ports
15:31:53 <alise> and not much wants to send the right stuff down the line...
15:32:22 <oerjan> `addquote <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:32:23 <alise> cheater99: I *have* got it to play MIDI -- but in actual audio software only.
15:32:41 <oerjan> hey wait HackEgo is broken :(
15:32:45 <oerjan> `echo hi
15:32:51 <HackEgo> hi
15:32:51 <alise> oerjan: no, just very slow
15:32:55 <alise> give it a few minutes
15:33:07 <oerjan> alise: but it answered No output above :(
15:33:09 <cheater99> alise: still don't know why it's difficult to wire it up?
15:33:20 <alise> oerjan: hmm
15:33:27 <alise> cheater99: I explained:
15:33:33 <alise> cheater99: It has no computery ports, only audio ports.
15:33:34 <HackEgo> 233|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:33:44 <alise> Getting software to send MT-32 data down the audio line is non-trivial.
15:33:47 <oerjan> ah just random failure
15:33:54 <oerjan> `quote 232
15:33:59 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
15:34:05 <cheater99> alise: ohh
15:34:06 <alise> cheater99: (Especially the special remapping ones where they change the entire sound, which a *lot* of games do.)
15:34:08 <cheater99> alise: ok got it
15:34:15 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:34:16 <alise> cheater99: I'm sure it's *possible*, but you sure as heck can't get ScummVM to do it.
15:34:22 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:34:22 <alise> Which is basically the only reason to do it.
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15:34:53 <oerjan> wait now it _reused_ the number D:
15:34:54 <alise> cheater99: Pirated MT-32 ROMs (or you could *manually* remove them... !) plus the emulator does a very good job.
15:35:00 <alise> Still doesn't sound analogue though.
15:35:01 <oerjan> `quote 233
15:35:01 <alise> oerjan: when?
15:35:05 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:35:27 <oerjan> alise: 233 for both Vorpal and last Phantom_Hoover quote
15:35:37 <oerjan> `addquote <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:35:37 <alise> oerjan: eek :D
15:35:53 <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:35:57 <oerjan> whew
15:36:12 <oerjan> Gregor: HackEgo's quote database has some _weird_ bugs
15:36:14 <alise> `quote 231
15:36:16 <HackEgo> 231|<Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
15:36:18 <alise> `quote 232
15:36:22 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
15:36:25 <alise> `quote 233
15:36:36 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:36:38 <alise> `quote 234
15:36:41 <cheater99> `quote 12/13
15:36:44 <oerjan> i think HackEgo may have something in the DSM
15:36:45 <HackEgo> No output.
15:36:47 <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:36:54 <alise> oerjan: duplicate quote
15:36:55 <cheater99> i suggest we start supporting rational numbers in the primary key.
15:36:57 <alise> 234 is
15:36:58 <alise> `help
15:36:59 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:37:11 <alise> let's see if i remember how to use revert
15:37:18 <oerjan> alise: um how so?
15:37:27 <alise> oh wait
15:37:29 <alise> you're right
15:37:35 <alise> i thought your addquote line was actually one of my quote requests
15:37:39 <oerjan> alise: HackEgo _overwrote_ the original 233 it seems
15:37:46 <alise> :D
15:38:19 <oerjan> it looks like all the quotes finally got in, anyhow
15:38:28 <oerjan> (FOR NOW)
15:40:44 <alise> the end of LeChuck's Revelation is sweet
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15:46:04 <oerjan> <cheater99> and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp <-- ITYM PROLOG. sheesh don't you know ANYTHING?
15:46:21 <cheater99> :(
15:46:28 <Sgeo> Dear whatever is causing window borders etc. to just die: Fuck you
15:46:37 <cheater99> please don't hit me mommy :(
15:46:46 * oerjan swats cheater99 -----###
15:46:48 <cheater99> Sgeo: on ubuntu?
15:46:53 <oerjan> ALSO, I'M NOT YOUR MOMMY
15:47:04 <Sgeo> Yes
15:47:10 <cheater99> Sgeo: it's fucking compiz
15:47:17 <cheater99> the worst piece of software in existence
15:47:31 <alise> compiz is terribly designed but i have an intel gpu so it just works :P
15:47:38 <cheater99> same
15:47:42 <cheater99> but it still gave me that shit
15:47:46 <cheater99> as for sgeo
15:47:46 <alise> ha ha
15:47:58 <alise> ok so i probably just haven't given it enough time :p
15:48:13 * Sgeo likes his visual effects
15:48:23 <Sgeo> Not enough to deal with this, though
15:48:32 <alise> Sgeo: oh, what? you have the wobbly resize and everything turned on?
15:48:35 <alise> LOL
15:48:36 * Sgeo wonders if this is also somehow related to Firefox crashing
15:48:40 <Sgeo> No, just the defaults
15:48:47 <alise> Normal or whatever's above that
15:48:54 <alise> Extra
15:48:55 <Sgeo> Normal
15:49:11 <alise> then the only visual effect is... minimising and restoring
15:49:29 <alise> well, shadows and non-active window semitransparency
15:49:30 <alise> but that's it
15:49:32 <alise> (titlebar)
15:49:41 <alise> (barely noticeable effect)
15:49:50 <Sgeo> My terminal stopped being transparent!
15:49:58 <Sgeo> Meh, I'll live
15:50:00 <alise> ...
15:50:10 <alise> like translucent fucking paper
15:50:22 <alise> hope you feel cool
15:50:25 <alise> "Roland MT-32 and CM-32L control and pcm roms for use with DOSBox and Munt" ;; yesplz
15:50:35 <oerjan> but but then you can spy on people when you're reading!
15:54:18 <alise> [[The next thing we have is "Movies That Don't Have Sequels" Movie Night! We're showing Pirates of the Caribbean and The Matrix.]]
15:57:34 * oerjan tends to see Highlander included in such lists too
15:59:10 * Sgeo only saw approx. the ending of The Matrix, and the two sequels
15:59:45 <alise> seriously?
15:59:52 <alise> you've watched two terrible movies
15:59:55 <alise> and spoiled a really good one
15:59:57 <alise> fail
16:07:26 -!- impomatic has joined.
16:07:29 <impomatic> Hi :-)
16:08:26 <oerjan> the ho
16:09:04 <oerjan> *de
16:11:30 <Sgeo> AAAH
16:11:39 <alise> oerjan: relatedly, Games That Don't Have More Than N Sequels
16:11:40 <Sgeo> Notifications are no longer semitransparent
16:11:45 <alise> Sgeo: OH NO
16:11:56 * oerjan shoots at the zombies following Sgeo
16:12:01 <alise> Games That Don't Have More Than 2 (or 1 if you're boring and anal or Ron Gilbert) Sequels: Monkey Island
16:12:13 <Sgeo> And they're completely invisible when the cursor is over them
16:12:17 <alise> Games That Probably Don't Have More Than 1 Sequel For Someone: Fallout
16:12:19 <alise> Sgeo: SO WHAT
16:15:26 -!- Kordalien has joined.
16:19:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:19:58 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/zPEGs.jpg
16:20:49 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
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16:31:28 <Sgeo> It's a magic dance magic dance magic dance
16:31:34 * Sgeo starts singing
16:31:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:33:11 <impomatic> It's just starting to rain here :-(
16:37:34 <alise> Remember...
16:37:34 <alise> Wherever you go...
16:37:35 <alise> On sea or on land,
16:37:35 <alise> You can't ever hide
16:37:35 <alise> From Largo LeGrande!
16:40:56 <Vorpal> <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version <-- I was quoting wikipedia
16:41:08 <Sgeo> `quote 231
16:41:13 <Vorpal> orejan completely fails
16:41:20 <Vorpal> I did not claim it was easier to read
16:41:23 <HackEgo> 231|<Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
16:41:25 <Vorpal> I quoted wikipedia saying so
16:41:40 <alise> yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit
16:42:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
16:43:52 <alise> http://miwiki.net/images/Mi2se_comparison.jpg ;; what did the redraw do to the poor man's nose...
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16:50:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
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17:22:33 <olsner> Vorpal: the quote is funnier that way, stop complaining :)
17:26:26 -!- impomatic has left (?).
17:29:01 <Sgeo> Which is more line-noise-y? J or dc?
17:29:34 <alise> neither are line-noisey.
17:29:37 <alise> you have clearly never seen line noise
17:29:49 <alise> also, J code is more comprehensible than dc code.
17:31:33 -!- zeotrope has joined.
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17:51:39 <Mathnerd314> I don't like J; it's not open source :-/
17:58:44 <alise> "Boo hoo." The libraries are at least viewable-source.
17:58:49 <alise> Feel free to reimplement it...
17:59:19 <alise> http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtowns.png ;; Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders, English FM Towns version
17:59:24 <alise> http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtownsj.png ;; Japanese FM Towns version.
17:59:25 <alise> *Groan*
17:59:42 <alise> (Real screenshots.)
18:00:31 <zeotrope> did someone say J?
18:00:41 <alise> Yes, yes they did.
18:00:48 <olsner> alise: how does line noise look?
18:01:03 <zeotrope> http://github.com/zeotrope/j7-src
18:01:15 <alise> olsner: not like a bunch of letters, a few punctuation chars and a lot of []s!
18:01:29 <olsner> but more like perl code?
18:01:50 <alise> olsner: a lot of control characters, most likely
18:01:50 <zeotrope> an old version of the J interpreter
18:01:57 <alise> zeotrope: ah, the first version?
18:02:03 <alise> no ... the first version was one file
18:02:09 <Gregor> "Viewable-source"
18:02:10 <Gregor> Yeesh
18:02:14 <alise> zeotrope: where did you get this?
18:02:19 <alise> zeotrope: also, fuck formatting changes
18:02:21 <Gregor> Windows CE is also "viewable-source"
18:02:25 <zeotrope> waterloo APL/J archives
18:02:32 <alise> zeotrope: awesome. now undo your lame changes :D
18:02:38 <alise> Gregor: no, as in you can download it freely and it has the files right there
18:02:40 <alise> and you can change them
18:02:41 <alise> and it works
18:02:47 <alise> you just can't redistribute changes.
18:02:48 <alise> well
18:02:49 <alise> in fact
18:02:53 <alise> distributing a patch should be legal
18:03:02 <alise> so... whoo qmail-style development
18:03:13 <alise> the only actually closed-source bit is the interpreter itself and the Java UI
18:03:31 <alise> i think a lot of the forms (UI) stuff is part of the lib too so that'd be sourced as well
18:03:38 <Gregor> People who use shitty licenses are the worst kind of people :P
18:03:47 <zeotrope> in j7.01 this will be the case
18:03:58 <zeotrope> the gtk and web frontend will be written in J
18:04:01 <alise> Gregor: there is no license, it's freeware
18:04:05 <alise> zeotrope: omg, there's gonna be a gtk frontend?
18:04:09 <alise> zeotrope: <3
18:04:18 <alise> K has cooler UI stuff though ;)
18:04:24 <alise> K3 that is
18:04:30 <zeotrope> K has a lot of cool things
18:04:40 <alise> K4/K5 are abominations of databasery :<
18:04:44 <zeotrope> too bad its license sucks even more
18:04:51 <alise> yeah well
18:04:58 <alise> nsl still has the binaries :P
18:05:09 <zeotrope> don't those binaries have a time limit?
18:05:12 <alise> although it's not in a linked path
18:05:15 <alise> zeotrope: no
18:05:21 <alise> it's the full k3
18:05:27 <alise> or at least... i never found a limitation
18:05:28 <alise> the manual, too
18:05:35 <alise> linux, windows and i think solaris or something weird like that
18:05:35 <zeotrope> hmm, I'll take a look
18:05:40 <alise> but the windows binaries in wine work way better than the linux ones
18:05:41 <alise> for gui
18:05:48 <alise> zeotrope: as i said, pretty sure it's in an unlinked directory
18:05:55 <alise> the megabreds guys linked me
18:06:49 <zeotrope> I've never liked Q
18:07:01 <alise> zeotrope: wait, why will it be 701?
18:07:04 <alise> it's 602 now
18:07:12 <alise> lots of unreleased/pay-only revisions?
18:07:28 <alise> or just a weird versioning scheme?
18:07:40 <zeotrope> I guess, I'm not sure how they are named
18:07:55 <zeotrope> since the old interpreter I showed you is called version 7
18:08:00 <pikhq> Slightly silly yet probably good idea for running Windows programs that don't work well in WINE (old games using obscure Direct2D features, for instance): have a Windows VM for qemu in QCOW. Create a new QCOW image using that one as the base. Install.
18:08:00 <alise> http://www.kx.com/a/ ;; here's a big directory of (official) k stuff
18:08:06 <alise> there might be a k3 binray there somewhere
18:08:14 <pikhq> Voila, per-app virtual machines not using unreasonable space.
18:09:06 <alise> pikhq: Or just use Xen to virtualise Windows! MWAHAHAHA--
18:09:56 <pikhq> alise: Well, to do that, you need to be using a recent CPU, and qemu built to use Xen.
18:09:59 <alise> zeotrope: i'm trying to find k3 now :)
18:10:07 <alise> pikhq: OR JUST USE PLAIN XEN MWAHAHA
18:10:11 <zeotrope> ya, me too
18:10:21 <zeotrope> I love Arthur Whitney's C style
18:10:22 <alise> zeotrope: if all else fails i can try and get in touch with the guy who linked me.
18:10:49 <pikhq> alise: No source license handy, sadly.
18:10:58 <alise> pikhq: MWAHAHAHA
18:11:06 <alise> zeotrope: have you seen the k->english code?
18:11:07 <alise> it's awesome
18:11:15 <zeotrope> no? link?
18:11:20 <alise> zeotrope: i'll try and find it
18:11:30 <alise> zeotrope: basically it replaces verbs with what they do and does a few adjective changes
18:11:31 <alise> quite amusing
18:11:39 <alise> especially as the code itself is incomprehensible :P
18:11:48 <zeotrope> to a non K-er :P
18:11:57 <alise> zeotrope: to a mortal
18:12:05 <Gregor> pikhq: Have fun fighting Windows update.
18:12:13 <zeotrope> I find J quite readable, but K pushes it with the overloading
18:12:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Here's the thing: we use Windows 2000 for it. THERE ARE NO UPDATES
18:12:25 <alise> zeotrope: tbh i've written a bit of k myself using the manual
18:12:29 <alise> zeotrope: the gui stuff is amazingly cool
18:12:30 <pikhq> Or 95, depending on what works better.
18:12:39 <Gregor> pikhq: Have fun getting hax0rd ;)
18:12:44 <alise> zeotrope: every value has properties
18:12:52 <alise> Gregor: yeah cuz you'd put it on the net of course.
18:13:02 <pikhq> Gregor: No known vulnerabilities for a fully-patched version of either, because NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.
18:13:06 <alise> zeotrope: like every value has its own dictionary...directory...hash table
18:13:10 <alise> and in fact every value has a path to it from the root
18:13:10 <pikhq> Well, except for in Internet Explorer.
18:13:13 <alise> an object filesystem
18:13:14 <pikhq> But who uses that shit?
18:13:18 <alise> anyway, every object has below it a GUI directory
18:13:26 <alise> where you specify what kind of control it should show as and actions and the like
18:13:36 <alise> and then you can have lists, and specify how they should show, as a form or a spreadsheet or whatever
18:13:38 <pikhq> Gregor: And anyways: totally totally behind iptables, even if it *is* on the net.
18:13:38 <alise> and then you just show them
18:13:40 <alise> it's really cool
18:13:44 <zeotrope> I vaguely remember that, it was called a K-tree or something
18:13:48 <alise> yeah
18:13:57 <alise> http://www.nsl.com/k/view.k ;; K tree viewer :P
18:14:07 <alise> the blah..x stuff is the gui stuff
18:14:39 <alise> http://www.nsl.com/papers/spreadsheet.htm spreadsheets are stupidly simple since it's basically built-in :P
18:14:59 <alise> zeotrope: anyway windows is unquestionably the best platform for using K on, WINE works fine too.
18:15:04 <alise> for the gui
18:17:25 <zeotrope> why must all the modern APLs be closed
18:17:28 <zeotrope> :(
18:17:38 <alise> zeotrope: A+!
18:17:43 <zeotrope> A+ doesn't count
18:17:47 <zeotrope> haha
18:17:50 <alise> haha why not? i sort of agree but
18:17:53 <alise> interested in hearing your reasoning
18:18:00 <alise> A+ amuses me because of the ... conventional libraries
18:18:04 <alise> also, nine parameters bullshit
18:18:05 <zeotrope> the character set for one
18:18:24 <alise> but it's more APLthentic :P
18:18:28 <zeotrope> and it lacks a lot of "modern" stuff
18:18:36 <alise> hm like what?
18:18:40 <alise> good gui support?
18:18:51 <zeotrope> libraries ya
18:18:56 <zeotrope> but even semantics of the language
18:19:03 <alise> hmm
18:19:04 <alise> example?
18:19:46 <zeotrope> exceptions?
18:19:46 <alise> zeotrope: grah, you have got me looking for k3!
18:19:55 <alise> wait, exceptions in what sense?
18:20:13 <zeotrope> like proper error checking
18:20:21 <zeotrope> nit-picking
18:20:25 <alise> as in non-local control flow?
18:20:29 <zeotrope> but anything that applies to APL
18:20:32 <alise> non-local, imperative control flow?
18:20:37 <zeotrope> ya
18:20:38 <alise> i'd say that's not a thing to brag about having!
18:20:44 <zeotrope> not gotos
18:20:50 <alise> i know what exceptions are
18:20:57 <alise> they're still non-local, imperative control flow
18:21:03 <alise> which breaks like 3 out of 3 rules of how array programming works
18:21:13 <zeotrope> if they are useful..
18:21:19 <alise> (functional, not imperative, no "control flow" as such)
18:21:29 <alise> zeotrope: not that useful imo.
18:21:30 <zeotrope> so are explicit conditionals
18:21:37 <alise> ok that i'll grant
18:23:23 <zeotrope> hmm A+ has a lot of things I never knew..
18:23:57 <zeotrope> does it have a rank operator?
18:24:45 <zeotrope> or does it still use APL bracket syntax
18:24:52 <alise> dunno
18:24:57 <alise> zeotrope: k has no rank :)
18:24:59 <alise> simplicity!
18:25:15 <zeotrope> but rank is simplicity
18:25:29 <zeotrope> generalizing a hard concept into one operator
18:25:32 <alise> zeotrope: no, k literally has no replacement for it
18:25:35 <alise> you just don't do that >:)
18:25:52 <alise> as far as i understand; i may be wrong
18:26:11 <zeotrope> no, I believe you are correct
18:26:20 <zeotrope> from what I have seen of K code
18:26:26 <alise> IS THAT AN INSULT MY FRIEND
18:26:50 <zeotrope> APL FIGHT!
18:28:16 <zeotrope> x@>#:'x
18:28:30 <zeotrope> that's K for sorting strings by length
18:28:45 <zeotrope> it appears that #:' does each length
18:28:58 <zeotrope> so there must be some sort of selection
18:29:15 <alise> it's just magic so there
18:30:32 <zeotrope> J version is better imo: (/: #&>)
18:30:51 <alise> you'd say that, Jacist
18:30:56 <alise> which sounds like racist, coincidence?
18:31:02 <zeotrope> not at all..
18:31:02 <alise> I declare jihad
18:31:59 <zeotrope> on J?
18:32:07 <zeotrope> J..Jihad..zomg
18:32:11 <alise> yes
18:32:19 <zeotrope> it's all so clear now
18:32:19 <alise> JJihad, J^2ihad
18:42:39 <alise> WHERE IS K
18:43:25 <alise> zeotrope: btw http://www.nsl.com/papers/instant.htm, starts out normal before he starts freaking transmitting code to be executed and then *editing objects that result and re-sending them*
18:43:28 <alise> you may have already seen it
18:43:39 <alise> not sure exactly how secure it is :P
18:45:35 <zeotrope> I'm impressed at how much K stuff there is
18:45:48 <alise> zeotrope: most of it his :P
18:46:00 <zeotrope> ya :P
18:46:04 <alise> what's his name again, i've forgotten
18:46:08 <alise> Steven A...?
18:46:09 <alise> Steven Apter?
18:47:37 <zeotrope> yup
18:47:42 <alise> zeotrope: http://www.nsl.com/links.html he has quite an esolang passion if you grep /Esoteric/
18:47:45 <zeotrope> stevan
18:47:50 <alise> also there's some esoteric language implementations on nsl.com...
18:48:09 <alise> unlambda, jot, zot, 01, 10, befunge-93, false, befreak, brainfuck
18:48:14 <alise> in K ofc
18:50:21 <alise> zeotrope: if olegfink was online i'd just ask him for the link
18:51:10 <zeotrope> is that the J/K oleg?
18:51:28 <alise> zeotrope: is there a specific J/K oleg?
18:51:31 <alise> I suppose it may be.
18:51:35 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel.k ;; excel v1
18:51:37 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel/excel2.k ;; excel v2
18:51:39 <alise> WHAT NOW MICROSOFT
18:52:03 <zeotrope> the goggles..
18:52:12 <alise> zeotrope: see bottom of page for actual VB macros for excel :D
18:52:18 <alise> to use with k for ... i have no idea what this does
18:52:25 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel/
18:52:32 <alise> maybe k.xls holds the key
18:55:12 <zeotrope> k.xls has a macro called kload, I'm assuming this is an interface to excel
18:55:34 <alise> the mind boggles.
18:55:40 <zeotrope> but is it to write K in excel
18:55:43 <alise> the bind moggles
18:55:49 <alise> zeotrope: i think it's two-way?? I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS THIS
18:55:50 <zeotrope> or to manipulate excel from K
18:56:03 <alise> the k obvs parses formulas...
18:56:34 <zeotrope> ya, small lexer there
18:57:14 <zeotrope> and parser
18:57:16 <zeotrope> and ..
18:57:19 <alise> and something
18:58:12 <zeotrope> I also once saw K in K
18:58:42 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/wolfram.k
18:58:54 <alise> in which steven rewrites A New Kind of Science in three lines
18:59:01 <alise> then gives it a GUI in three
18:59:05 <alise> well, basically two
18:59:12 <cheater99> what's K
19:00:06 <zeotrope> a descendant of APL
19:00:15 <cheater99> why do we care?
19:00:33 <zeotrope> no one said you do
19:02:02 <alise> cheater99: we have cared about J/K for a while.
19:02:21 <cheater99> alise: oh ok
19:02:21 <alise> a year or two in fact
19:02:28 <cheater99> is that a word play
19:02:28 <alise> zeotrope: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k ;; the ->english
19:02:40 <alise> http://nsl.com/papers/kisntlisp.htm seems to imply it turns
19:02:45 <alise> +(#:'=v[;1];?v[;1])
19:02:45 <alise> into
19:02:46 <cheater99> and are you gonna suddenly scream out JUST KIDDING!!
19:02:46 <alise> flip(count each group v[;1];unique v[;1])
19:02:48 <alise> cheater99: no.
19:02:55 <alise> that would be stupid.
19:02:59 <cheater99> yes
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19:03:26 <cheater99> but because of that, it would also be completely unexpected. which would make it smart again.
19:03:34 <alise> no
19:03:38 <alise> no it wouldn't
19:03:44 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:04:14 <cheater99> *sneeze*
19:04:18 * cheater99 has a cold : (
19:04:47 * alise is COLS AND HEARTLESS
19:05:10 <alise> *COLD
19:05:13 <cheater99> alise: so you're tabular?
19:05:17 <zeotrope> there is a similar one in J, converts J to "english"
19:05:23 <zeotrope> or haskell imo
19:05:34 <cheater99> alise: do you run a local instance of squid proxy?
19:05:57 <alise> cheater99: no
19:06:00 <alise> zeotrope: lol
19:06:05 <alise> cheater99: do you?
19:08:49 <cheater99> yes
19:08:54 <alise> why?
19:09:00 <cheater99> it works perfectly for fixing my internet woes
19:09:04 <alise> define
19:09:12 <cheater99> i use mobile internet (temporarily) and they have this transparent proxy
19:09:24 <alise> i used mobile internet for over a month
19:09:31 <cheater99> it minifies html and recompresses images, and sometimes it returns empty responses in error
19:09:36 <alise> it didn't compress images though or any of that bullshit
19:09:40 <cheater99> squid has an option for retrying that
19:09:43 <alise> just had a content filter, easily removed
19:09:46 <alise> (you just call up)
19:09:49 <cheater99> ALSO:
19:09:55 <cheater99> it's great for when you use multiple browsers
19:10:00 <cheater99> and want to share a cache between them
19:10:03 <alise> i don't
19:10:13 <cheater99> also allows webpages to be prefetched
19:18:20 <cheater99> however, it seems to be fucking up dns too
19:18:32 <cheater99> so i get squid complaining that there are no dns records for q.ebaystatic.com.
19:18:40 <cheater99> and i have to think about getting a dns caching proxy too
19:18:51 <alise> http://www.logarithmic.net/ghost.xhtml ;; click "random" a lot
19:18:52 <alise> wonderful
19:19:31 <cheater99> alise: how come you're all into diagrams suddenly?
19:19:38 <alise> cheater99: er, I am?
19:19:42 <alise> what else have i said about diagrams?
19:19:50 <cheater99> you were posting some diagram game last week i think
19:20:15 <cheater99> where you had to come up with the longest interconnected line or something like that and had hexagonal tiles
19:20:40 <alise> really?
19:20:43 <alise> no, no i didn't
19:20:47 <alise> you must be thinking of someone else
19:20:50 <alise> or i have amnesia
19:22:08 <cheater99> it's probably my error
19:22:32 <alise> 'a aC C', 'a bC D', 'b aD C', 'b bD D', 'cacAAA', 'dacBBB', 'cbcBBB', 'dbcBBB', 'cadAAA', 'dadBBB', 'cbdBBB', 'dbdAAA', colors=['#fff', '#000', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#000', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#fff']
19:22:35 <alise> a tileset implementing rule 110
19:22:54 <alise> colors doesn't work with the web version
19:22:55 <alise> it seems
19:23:10 <cheater99> i've seen it
19:23:25 <cheater99> so i wonder when his program knows that a tileset is "solved"
19:23:40 <alise> when it's filled the whole field, which is finite, presumably
19:23:45 <cheater99> i mean this isn't regular at all that i know of: '11 1 ', '111 1 '
19:23:46 <cheater99> ok
19:23:51 <alise> cheater99: it's random
19:23:52 <alise> i think
19:23:56 <cheater99> ah ok
19:24:04 <cheater99> but sometimes it does backtracking
19:24:05 <alise> which is why you get a different one each time
19:24:10 <cheater99> and i don't know when it decides to do that
19:24:13 <alise> cheater99: presumably if it figures out it can't fit something somewhere
19:24:14 <alise> at all
19:24:37 <cheater99> maybe possibly not terminating? 'dDDDd-', 'ddDd-D', 'ddd--D'
19:25:17 <cheater99> try it
19:25:24 <alise> heh
19:25:25 <alise> it hates you :)
19:25:41 <alise> cheater99: it may be impossible to do, or simply take a very long time
19:25:54 <cheater99> yes
19:26:15 <cheater99> but given that i'm only on a centrino, it's relatively NP-hard.
19:27:48 <alise> cheater99: ... wat
19:27:58 <alise> worst abuse of NP-hard ever :D
19:28:23 <cheater99> it's np-hard-to-disprove-on-a-slow-cpu
19:33:35 <alise> cheater99: wow he included ghost diagrams in his phd thesis
19:33:43 <alise> http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/thesis chapter 7 apparently
19:33:52 <alise> holy 60 megabyte pdf batman :)
19:33:58 <cheater99> alise: niiice
19:34:21 <alise> i can't get the hang of making nice patterns yet :(
19:36:34 <alise> cheater99: oh the same guy also wrote a GIMP plugin that does that awesome texture synthesis stuff
19:36:42 <alise> i.e. "oh look i just removed this object by coping some of the sky" and the like
19:37:29 <cheater99> you mean the least-power-path thing?
19:38:02 <alise> hmm?
19:38:18 <alise> cheater99: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer
19:38:22 <alise> see the example pages
19:38:45 <alise> photoshop recently introduced this and everyone called it magical
19:38:55 <alise> resynthesizer is slightly less polished but still pretty good
19:39:05 <alise> also part of his Ph.D. xD
19:40:18 * alise , in a stunning burst of insanity, decides to code a stupid half-wiki
19:40:46 <cheater99> oh that's cooool
19:40:53 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:42:13 <cheater99> i like this a looot: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer/theming
19:42:34 <Sgeo> ARGH
19:42:39 <Sgeo> I can't seem to press Enter!
19:42:47 <Sgeo> On ShareKeyboard
19:42:51 <cheater99> press the other enter
19:43:31 <alise> why are browsers so stupid that they can't embed a program inside a page
19:43:33 <alise> without like java crap
19:43:38 <alise> i wanna say
19:43:52 <SgeoN1> This is a test, this is only a test. ShareKeyboard is pretty awesome. Except for the lack of an Enter key... help me help me I can't say anything
19:44:07 <cheater99> alise: don't get me started
19:44:16 <cheater99> alise: every technology used by the internet is a failed piece of crap
19:44:27 <alise> foo = document.getElementById("editor").runApplication(preferences.editor, "-stdin"); foo.write(sometext);
19:44:28 <alise> or whatever
19:44:33 <alise> reasons why this doesn't work:
19:44:36 <alise> - shitty OSes are architectured shittily
19:44:47 <alise> - fuck everything
19:44:51 <SgeoN1> I had to switch to stock keyboard to send that... although actually, in landscape mode, there's a share button
19:44:57 <SgeoN1> Erm, send button
19:45:33 <SgeoN1>
19:47:30 <alise> cheater99: ... so instead i'll just implement my own editor component! BECAUSE I CLEARLY WANT TO DO THAT
19:47:40 <alise> fuck the web. fuck it fuck it
19:48:00 <cheater99> yes, fuck it
19:48:01 <alise> i made some wiki software once that popped open your editor to edit pages, that was quite nice but only worked locally...
19:48:24 <alise> cheater99: and here's the monstrosity that did it:
19:48:37 <alise> it was a pre-rendered dealie
19:48:37 <cheater99> i expect java
19:48:39 <alise> not online
19:48:42 <alise> so
19:48:51 <alise> the edit link linked to a *localhost* with ?page=foo
19:48:51 <alise> now
19:48:53 <alise> on your localhost
19:48:56 <alise> you ran a server
19:48:59 <alise> that listened for requests
19:49:01 <cheater99> ahh
19:49:01 <cheater99> haha
19:49:04 <alise> and opened your editor
19:49:14 <cheater99> sounds like php and system()
19:49:16 <alise> so you'd click the link on your external server, which would bounce back to localhost, which would open your editor and redirect you back
19:49:21 <alise> so you had an "edit" link that worked
19:49:37 <alise> then you edited, saved, and pressed whatever hotkey you had to build and upload the site
19:49:47 <alise> the code was a bit of a mess though, for the building bit
19:49:53 <SgeoN1> Testing with WifiKeyboard, this is a test this is only a test.
19:49:59 <SgeoN1> This is much, much better for IRC
19:50:11 <SgeoN1> And no ads!
19:50:24 <SgeoN1> Can't see the input on the computer screen, though
19:50:29 <SgeoN1> But I can seem to backspace
19:50:36 <alise> "Male infertility gene discovered" --BBC News
19:50:53 <alise> NATURAL SELECTION: THE MORE YOU KNOW =============*
19:51:33 <SgeoN1> So in Game mode, backspace only sends one backspace
19:52:10 <SgeoN1> Love, love, is a verb, love is a doing word
19:52:13 <SgeoN1>
19:52:18 <SgeoN1> ə
19:52:20 <alise> Shut up.
19:52:42 <SgeoN1> Never!
19:52:47 <SgeoN1> Muahahahahhahahahhh!
19:52:49 * SgeoN1 goes insane
19:54:10 <SgeoN1> I think this will be useful at schoo, so I don't have to login to, say, Gmail to respond using a decent keybiard
19:54:25 <SgeoN1> Hmm, I'm not even looking at my phone right now, so don't know if I'm typoing
19:54:33 <SgeoN1> Since Wifi Keyboard doesn't show current input
19:56:56 <SgeoN1> It occurs to me that it's not the most secure thing to use at school :/
19:57:21 <alise> cheater99: How do you name things? I'm wondering if there is actually a trick t it.
19:57:26 <alise> *to
19:57:29 <alise> Busyloop!
19:57:58 <cheater99> alise: in a greenfield project, in a legacy project, or when reverse-engineering?
19:57:58 <SgeoN1> Well, if someone else starts typing, the thing will complain about multiple input
19:58:23 <alise> cheater99: Just... naming a spare-time project. Greenfield, sure.
19:58:32 <alise> I don't have any other kinds of projects. :p
19:58:42 <cheater99> oh, you mean naming a project
19:58:54 <cheater99> i thought you meant code objects (classes, functions, variables)
19:59:07 <cheater99> well then, i usually try to figure out if there has been some form of inspiration for this
19:59:31 <cheater99> i try to find the use for what i'm doing, and then express the gist of that
19:59:32 <alise> i'm thinking maybe bonsai but that's a very tenuous link
19:59:37 <alise> (bonsai trees are small, my software is small!)
19:59:44 <alise> seems almost like i should save that name for something better.
20:00:00 <cheater99> no, that's not great
20:00:14 <cheater99> what software are you trying to name?
20:00:17 <cheater99> what does it do?
20:00:48 <alise> it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things)
20:00:56 <alise> primarily the byproduct of my serve NIH syndrome
20:03:18 <alise> cheater99: thinking about it, bonsai has a more tenuous link -- the links of pages to each other sort of form a branching tree
20:03:26 <alise> it's a graph, but whatever, you can imagine a link visualisation as a tree
20:04:11 <cheater99> you've got a problem i see in many coders right now
20:04:19 <cheater99> you are thinking of the code and not about what it does
20:04:32 <cheater99> i was doing a code review with this girl last friday
20:04:34 <alise> you mean i'm thinking too technically? dude, it's for my own use.
20:04:38 <cheater99> and i ask her what the application does
20:04:50 <cheater99> so she says "the calculation class blah blah blah"
20:04:50 <alise> here's what it does: it maintains a website.
20:04:57 <alise> <alise> it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things)
20:05:00 <alise> that's pretty non-codey
20:05:03 <cheater99> so i tell her ok, but i don't want to know about that, i want to know what the application is for
20:05:24 <cheater99> "yes, you build up a configuration object and then pass it and blah blah blah"
20:05:27 <cheater99> so i tell her
20:05:33 <alise> yes, i get it
20:05:35 <cheater99> no, i don't want to know about any classes
20:05:53 <cheater99> on the most basic level, what does the application do, in the eyes of a user?
20:06:03 <cheater99> "it is a collection of form text input fields."
20:06:07 <cheater99> . . .
20:06:11 <cheater99> i stopped asking
20:06:27 <alise> :D
20:06:30 <alise> but seriously, i didn't do that.
20:06:45 <cheater99> yeah
20:06:52 <cheater99> just sayin'
20:06:59 <cheater99> and besides
20:07:09 <cheater99> what's the difference if it's for your own use or for someone else's use?
20:07:20 <cheater99> there are big benefits to keeping projects public-ready
20:07:27 <cheater99> 1. it makes you finish them so they work
20:07:40 <cheater99> 2. it makes you write the important bits like manuals etc which makes you actually rethink usefulness
20:07:52 <cheater99> 3. it makes you package it nicely even if for your own use (useful down the line)
20:08:01 <cheater99> 4. it makes you think differently about what's necessary
20:09:53 <alise> cheater99: yeah, uh, you're no fun at all.
20:11:53 <cheater99> i kno :(
20:12:10 <cheater99> so this is a personal wiki only/
20:12:11 <cheater99> ?
20:12:17 <cheater99> uni-user?
20:12:27 <cheater99> or rather monouser
20:14:13 <alise> cheater99: yes
20:14:26 <alise> cheater99: but infinite readers
20:14:31 <cheater99> well
20:14:41 <cheater99> so you've got a set of information which you maintain
20:14:45 <cheater99> as your own brain map
20:14:56 <alise> i already know what i want it to do
20:14:58 <alise> i just want to name it.
20:14:58 <cheater99> like wolfram's brain?
20:15:04 <cheater99> is that it?
20:15:05 <cheater99> i'm guessing
20:15:42 <alise> cheater99: not really
20:15:50 <alise> it's just a website with an edit button for one person :P
20:15:55 <cheater99> but you're the only maintainer
20:16:02 <cheater99> and you make it nice and fine for yourself
20:16:18 <cheater99> others can look at it but you're the only one who builds it and understands it
20:16:31 <cheater99> that's a real connotation with a banzai
20:16:39 <alise> "banzai" does not mean what you think it is
20:16:41 <cheater99> since every banzai belongs to only one person
20:16:49 <cheater99> banzai tree ?
20:16:52 <alise> it means "ten thousand years".
20:16:54 <alise> you mean "bonsai".
20:17:04 <cheater99> yes
20:17:30 <cheater99> i have misspelled it because xchat underlined bonzai and not banzai :(
20:18:40 <alise> that's because it's bonsai
20:18:44 <alise> the more you know =========++*
20:18:46 <alise> *no +s
20:19:16 <alise> anyway bonsai it is then :P
20:19:22 <alise> now for the even harder part, deciding a language!
20:19:26 <alise> can you tell i never get anything done?
20:20:49 <cheater99> haskell
20:20:57 <cheater99> ftfy
20:21:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:22:56 <alise> cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :)
20:23:04 <cheater99> very good
20:23:08 <cheater99> now appreciate it practically
20:23:11 <alise> and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed
20:23:16 <alise> i am now a lot less disturbed
20:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, no, we aren't on a Haskell vs C slanging match, are we?
20:23:37 <cheater99> ugh, how do you figure out your dns server now?
20:23:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nope
20:23:45 <alise> cheater99 is on the haskell side
20:23:55 <alise> i'm on my own side
20:24:06 <alise> (<alise> cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :) <alise> and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed <alise> i am now a lot less disturbed)
20:24:17 <alise> cheater99: /etc/resolv.conf?
20:24:20 <cheater99> alise: write it in something that has a natural impedance match for that
20:24:32 <alise> cheater99: wonderful advice; useless, of course, but...
20:24:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Why did you go crazy enough to forget type systems?
20:24:40 <alise> I might write it in rc :)
20:24:46 <cheater99> i.e. natural graph structures, and taxonomies
20:24:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because the things you see... in type theory... they scare you
20:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you believe only in category theory?
20:24:52 <alise> you can never truly be whole again
20:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what, you mean undecidable types?
20:25:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah you start becoming convinced that you should base a computational model on category theory
20:25:13 <alise> rather than type theory
20:25:21 <alise> that's usually when the cluster headaches start
20:25:26 <cheater99> alise: that file seems to work
20:25:34 <cheater99> does it get automagically updated by dialup software?
20:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> What kind of awful things are there in type theory?
20:25:44 <alise> cheater99: DHCP will update it (I forget the client name)
20:25:50 <alise> so yes probably
20:26:05 <alise> cheater99: you may simply want to remove all write bits from the file if the dialup thing does it
20:26:08 <alise> cheater99: here NetworkManager sets it
20:26:15 <alise> cheater99: btw NetworkManager can connect to a lot of 3G modems
20:26:20 <alise> to avoid the shitty dialup software
20:26:21 <alise> highly recommended
20:26:40 <alise> Ubuntu, at least, has a nice wizard for it
20:26:43 <alise> if you go to edit connections
20:26:51 <alise> i bet you can set a custom dns server after that too
20:29:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit I want to know the forbidden secrets of type theory alise.
20:29:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: IA IA IA
20:29:32 <alise> Insert Zalgo
20:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> You forgot the diæreses!
20:29:50 <alise> IÄ IÄ IÄ!
20:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Better!
20:31:19 <alise> I wish wiki syntaxes sucked less.
20:31:24 <alise> Solution: MAKE THEM SUCK LESS
20:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Which sucks more: PMWiki markup or MediaWiki markup?
20:31:47 <alise> {tag ...} is a tag. Maybe I'll have keyword arguments.
20:31:52 <cheater99> alise: hmm
20:32:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If a tree falls in a forest and noöne is around to hear it?
20:32:06 <cheater99> alise: i should try it then
20:32:21 <alise> cheater99: what distro?
20:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you not know PMWiki markup?
20:32:28 <cheater99> ubuntu!
20:33:13 <alise> cheater99: uninstall crappy dialup software, right click network icon, edit connections, mobile broadband, add, hope for the best
20:33:20 <alise> it has a surprising range of support
20:33:22 <alise> and usually Just Works
20:33:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed not.
20:33:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But I was implying their equal shittiness.
20:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It's what TV Tropes uses.
20:34:05 <alise> Yeah.
20:34:08 <alise> I've edited TV Tropes exactly once.
20:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least MediaWiki doesn't have 4 different kinds of link formats.
20:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> *internal link formats.
20:34:33 <alise> When you go to edit it tells you not to say This Troper on the article page because they're making the pages not discussions any more.
20:34:38 <alise> Which is Wikipedian bullshit.
20:34:49 <alise> Clearly they have never browsed WardsWiki.
20:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The discussion does get a little out of hand in both places...
20:35:24 <cheater99> alise: i don't think i need to uninstall crappy dialup software
20:35:36 <cheater99> alise: btw, i have ditched network manager for wicd
20:35:40 <alise> cheater99: if it's handling connections you probably do.
20:35:42 <cheater99> network manager was cancer for me
20:35:46 <alise> cheater99: also, i doubt wicd can do this.
20:35:48 <alise> so your loss
20:35:51 <cheater99> yeah
20:35:57 <alise> cheater99: networkmanager works fine :P
20:35:57 <cheater99> but nm was very very bad for me
20:36:04 <alise> better than shitty dialup software for sure
20:36:05 <cheater99> the wifi was dying all the time with nm
20:36:16 <alise> this ain't wifi
20:36:53 <alise> cheater99: anyway just make your changes to /etc/resolv.conf, -w it
20:36:54 <alise> done
20:37:03 <cheater99> yeah
20:37:20 <cheater99> i set up djbdns on my pc
20:37:25 <cheater99> let's see how it works with retries
20:37:52 <alise> cheater99: djb software is great if you already have djb software, otherwise it brings along a lot of /services stuff :D
20:38:14 <cheater99> i have had it installed already
20:38:16 <cheater99> funnily enough
20:38:26 <cheater99> (i go through the package manager and install 100s of packages.)
20:38:32 <alise> ew
20:38:34 <alise> :P
20:38:55 <cheater99> it's great because it shows you software you never thought existed
20:39:14 <alise> i don't want to know about more software, the existing set gives me enough pain :)
20:39:20 <cheater99> alise are you into audio stuff at all?
20:39:28 <alise> specify further
20:40:16 <cheater99> well, making/recording music
20:40:21 <cheater99> and sounds
20:40:43 <alise> i'd like to do it, but i have no particular talent for it.
20:40:58 <cheater99> define "have no particular talent"
20:40:58 <alise> i have discovered this lack of talent an amusing number of times, and like to blame software for it.
20:41:10 <alise> cheater99: i have no particular inspiration for what to do to produce pleasing sounds.
20:41:24 <cheater99> ah
20:41:27 <cheater99> that comes with practice
20:41:37 <cheater99> but it's not that difficult
20:41:43 <alise> cheater99: i also have the extreme lack of patience to learn, say, an instrument.
20:42:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way Look Around You lapses into horror at random.
20:42:11 <cheater99> it doesn't have to be about mastering finger techniques
20:42:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: which episode?
20:42:26 <cheater99> the cool thing about this stuff is that there's a lot of technology backing it
20:42:33 <cheater99> and a lot about it is highly esoteric
20:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Calcium specifically, but the Boîte Diabolique also counts.
20:42:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Helvetica scenario.
20:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
20:43:00 <alise> cheater99: i have this wonderful plan to create a wonderful music-composition software based on vague bits of interacting code; it will never happen
20:43:10 <Phantom_Hoover> VwumVweeeeeeeeeee...VwumVweeeeeeeeeeeee
20:43:19 <cheater99> cellular automaton music has been done to death
20:43:23 <alise> cheater99: not that
20:43:36 <alise> imagine a typical horizontal-is-time, vertical-is-tracks thing, but instead of waveforms it's little snippets of code
20:43:51 <alise> and there's a huge library of, say, sine waves, midi, raw waveform, etc. functions
20:43:58 <cheater99> you've just described a tracker
20:44:01 <alise> and filters that do effects and the like
20:44:03 <alise> and you stack them with code
20:44:12 <alise> cheater99: i've never seen anyone input code into a tracker
20:44:21 <cheater99> screamtracker
20:44:25 <cheater99> well it's very simple code
20:44:33 <cheater99> it's just a few most important things
20:44:35 <alise> yeah, the code i'm thinking of isn't :P
20:44:45 <alise> you'd have, say, a whole "riff" in one block of code
20:45:07 <cheater99> yes
20:45:28 <alise> cheater99: it also doesn't help that simple music bores me
20:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <cheater99> cellular automaton music has been done to death ← it has?
20:45:33 <cheater99> you can do this stuff in uh..
20:45:35 <cheater99> what's the name
20:45:39 <alise> and making boring things bores me even more than consuming them.
20:45:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes, even by wolfram
20:45:44 <alise> it sucks
20:46:04 <cheater99> cmusic? something like that
20:46:04 <Phantom_Hoover> How does it work?
20:46:06 <cheater99> c-something
20:46:10 <alise> chuck?
20:46:15 <alise> but i know there's another c- thin
20:46:17 <cheater99> alise: no
20:46:19 <alise> cheater99: and if you've ever tried creating might be
20:46:19 <cheater99> c-sound
20:46:20 <alise> erm
20:46:21 <cheater99> that's it
20:46:22 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMusic
20:46:39 <cheater99> i mean c-sound
20:46:49 <alise> cheater99: most music composition software is ridiculously complex, i've noticed
20:47:01 <alise> five billion twiddle knobs, five billion preferences behind it, five billion different modes...
20:47:04 <cheater99> cmusic is the max/msp predecessor isn't it?
20:47:16 <cheater99> yes
20:47:21 <cheater99> music software is generally gay
20:47:23 <alise> (also: interfaces that look like real equipment and have stupid knobs and shit MAKE ME FUCKING RAGE)
20:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> And none of it implements the Boîtes Diabolique.
20:47:31 <cheater99> it's all like ms word
20:47:40 <cheater99> if you want a nice vim based build system, you don't get shit.
20:48:01 <alise> xD
20:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you expect *musicians* to be able to competently use a well-designed UI?
20:48:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I think not.
20:48:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Um.
20:48:18 <alise> If a musician can use Ableton.
20:48:24 <alise> Then that musician can use literally any interface known to man.
20:48:34 <alise> Ableton is the *craziest freaking thing* ever.
20:48:34 <Phantom_Hoover> </random-take-that-against-musicians>
20:48:50 <alise> Not even Reason is that bad.
20:49:07 <alise> cheater99: Maybe I'll get ahold of the original Atari ST version of Logic :)
20:49:08 <cheater99> i tried getting a job at ableton
20:49:11 <alise> My father has that.
20:49:14 <alise> And an Atari to run it on!
20:49:28 <cheater99> they replied with a code excercise
20:49:28 <cheater99> i replied with code
20:49:32 <Sgeo> Something happened last night
20:49:37 <cheater99> (in python, which they wanted)
20:49:42 <alise> (He now does music using Logic Studio on Windows Me. No joke.)
20:49:46 <cheater99> they replied that my code is not up to their quality standards
20:49:57 <cheater99> i had someone at PSF check that code and find no problems with it
20:50:00 <Sgeo> My dad said that if it weren't for him visiting the hospital where my step-mother's mom was, she would have died due to incompetent care
20:50:03 <cheater99> I WIN
20:50:09 <Sgeo> I wonder if maybe I should become a doctor
20:50:40 <Sgeo> I don't like the thought of other people's lives being in my hands, but if I displace someone who might be less competent, it's a net win I think
20:50:48 <cheater99> alise: tell him to start using sonar
20:50:56 <cheater99> alise: it's the nicest thing for windoze
20:50:59 <alise> cheater99: i'm not on speaking terms with my father.
20:51:05 <cheater99> alise: :(
20:51:20 <cheater99> alise: he uses windows me. i wouldn't talk to him either : P
20:51:27 <alise> also, he still uses Me because he never saw a reason to upgrade. also Cool Edit Pro and Sound Forge
20:51:32 <alise> so i doubt he will ever change his setup, ever
20:51:40 <cheater99> sound forge ain't so bad
20:51:45 <alise> cheater99: *old* sound forge
20:51:47 <alise> all the software is old
20:51:53 * Phantom_Hoover takes a look at Ableton's interface.
20:51:58 <cheater99> there's a point to "it works" though
20:51:58 <Phantom_Hoover> My god... I am humbled.
20:52:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wat
20:52:10 <alise> yeah
20:52:12 <cheater99> ableton's interface is fairly shit
20:52:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse when you can click on it
20:52:26 <alise> see, the simplistic interface you normally see
20:52:29 <alise> is the one for retards
20:52:35 <alise> you can't tweak anything despite it being almost impossible to use
20:52:36 -!- Flonk has joined.
20:52:38 <cheater99> what's worst is that they're trying to be a dj/live production thing
20:52:41 <cheater99> but they suck at dj
20:52:43 <alise> so you get to enter the even worse parts of the interface
20:52:43 <cheater99> they suck at live
20:52:46 <cheater99> and they suck at production
20:52:50 <alise> cheater99: Autechre use Ableton in live performances
20:52:59 <alise> which, uh, props to them because that shit sounds painfully impossible to me
20:53:17 <alise> wonder if they use max/msp live too
20:53:25 <cheater99> autechre is not something i'd consider an influence to myself
20:53:33 <alise> autechre are awesome
20:53:41 <cheater99> you know what's awesome?
20:53:54 <cheater99> when i turn up the resonance knob, my tb303's sequencer slows down
20:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Look Around You?
20:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
20:54:01 <cheater99> because the batteries are half empty.
20:54:04 <cheater99> that's awesome.
20:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> O GOD I AM BECOMING SGEO
20:54:07 <alise> cheater99: http://dailyjs.com/images/posts/autechre.jpg <-- Max/MSP patches by Autechre
20:54:11 <alise> Why does it have a colour picker? I DON'T KNOW
20:54:24 <cheater99> i've done better
20:54:35 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
20:55:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Name a language!
20:55:19 <alise> Come to think of it, I basically want Logo with a bit more syntactic sugar. ...wait, I just said I want REBOL.
20:55:19 <cheater99> i've done patches full of text entry boxes
20:55:21 <alise> I TAKE IT BACK I TAKE IT
20:55:25 <cheater99> and that's across like 3 screens.
20:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Nemerle!
20:55:39 <alise> cheater99: but what that outputs probably counts as music to most people >:)
20:55:42 <alise> (yours, that is)
20:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of Nemerle whatsoever.
20:55:55 <cheater99> actually
20:56:01 <cheater99> it was an additive synthesizer
20:56:14 <cheater99> for researching on inharmonic spectra
20:56:25 <cheater99> which is very important to the musicality of computer music
20:56:48 <cheater99> once electronic instruments can reliably generate inharmonic spectra, the world of electronic music will change forever
20:57:24 <alise> that made no sense to me at all.
20:58:26 <cheater99> 99.99999999999999999999% of all sounds generated with electronic means are either noise, or harmonic spectra, or derivations from those, or recordings.
20:58:56 <alise> i like noise.
20:59:00 <alise> so what's inharmonic spectra
20:59:11 <cheater99> if you have a sound, it has partials
20:59:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I think it's something to do with its timbre.
20:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover> According to the first result on Google.
20:59:46 <cheater99> the frequency and the loudness envelope of these partials is called the spectrum
20:59:55 <cheater99> it can be seen with a spectrograph
20:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, is that correct?
21:00:05 <cheater99> yes
21:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> So real instruments produce harmonic spectra, while computers produce inharmonic ones?
21:00:35 <cheater99> most sounds generated with syntesizers have harmonic spectra
21:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, other way round?
21:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Makes sense.
21:02:31 <cheater99> harmonic spectrum = repeating waveform
21:02:36 <cheater99> basically
21:02:50 <cheater99> a piano is stretched-harmonic. it is a special type of inharmonicity.
21:04:55 <cheater99> you have an almost-harmonic spectrum, except
21:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So electronic music is too precise, or what?
21:05:48 <cheater99> in a harmonic spectrum, the frequencies of partials are 1f, 2f, 3f, ...
21:06:07 <cheater99> in a stretched-harmonic spectrum it's 1af, 2af, 3af, 4af, ...
21:06:11 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
21:06:21 <cheater99> where a > 1
21:06:34 <cheater99> (of course you can also try a <1 and it'll sound nice too)
21:06:53 <cheater99> i think for a piano a is around between 1.001 and 1.1, not sure
21:07:15 -!- tombom has joined.
21:07:18 <cheater99> alise: ?
21:07:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Different instruments have different spectra
21:07:30 <cheater99> well
21:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Computers have different types of spectra to real instruments.
21:07:46 <cheater99> i find that it's mostly about the "a" rather than the levels
21:08:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I think that's basically it.
21:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and cheater99 plans to discover how to generate inharmonic spectra with a computer and make 5 billion currencies.
21:10:45 <cheater99> yes
21:11:05 <cheater99> it is currently not being achieved on a computer
21:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
21:11:16 <cheater99> it is a very difficult problem computationally
21:11:23 <cheater99> the additive method needs umpteens of partials
21:11:42 <cheater99> and the physical method (simulate a string with weight) is out of reach
21:11:46 <cheater99> (that i know of)
21:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> And wind instruments?
21:13:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: >SPIT OUT RANDOM LANGUAGE
21:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I already spat out Nemerle.
21:14:19 * Phantom_Hoover plays the flute and is constantly confused by the keyings for notes.
21:14:24 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:16:34 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:17:13 <alise> hi ais523!
21:17:29 <alise> ais523: name a (non-eso) language, please
21:18:24 <ais523> alise: Perl
21:18:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, WHAT, NEMERLE NOT RANDOM ENOUGH
21:18:30 <ais523> wait, you said non-eso
21:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
21:18:34 <ais523> umm, ADA
21:19:10 <alise> ais523: okay, non-eso but including Perl and languages of similar esoity; can i have another?
21:19:12 <alise> Also, it's Ada.
21:19:24 <ais523> alise: but the entire language is in allcaps
21:19:29 <ais523> alise: m4
21:19:34 <alise> ada?
21:19:36 <alise> no it isn't
21:19:47 <Sgeo> Factor
21:19:48 <alise> ais523: err, ok, strengthen non-eso constraint a bit more
21:19:49 <ais523> alise: actually, I think it's case-insensitive
21:19:54 <alise> with Ada.Text_IO;
21:19:55 <alise>
21:19:55 <alise> procedure Hello is
21:19:55 <alise> begin
21:19:55 <alise> Ada.Text_IO.Put_Line("Hello, world!");
21:19:55 <alise> end Hello;
21:19:57 <ais523> but all the Ada code I've seen has been in allcaps
21:20:01 <ais523> C#
21:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Prolog.
21:20:20 <Sgeo> LSL
21:20:25 <alise> conclusion: on average, a randomly-picked language is not suitable for your project
21:20:35 <ais523> alise: I agree
21:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> PRO. LOG.
21:20:46 <ais523> this is why I don't use the same lang for everything
21:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++.
21:21:00 <ais523> OTOH, there's generally more than one lang suitable for any given project
21:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Objective C.
21:21:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Objective C++!
21:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> D!
21:22:37 <ais523> hmm, does objective C++ actually exist?
21:23:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen in mentioned in OS X docs.
21:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't remember if it was actually a langage.
21:23:38 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++. ;; wat?
21:23:42 <Phantom_Hoover> *language.
21:23:43 <alise> ais523: yes, for compatibility
21:23:46 <alise> with C++ libs
21:23:47 <ais523> ah, OK
21:23:58 <ais523> I couldn't think of a plausible reason for it to exist, but that's one
21:25:39 <ais523> wow, DNS root server H was down for around 18 hours
21:25:50 <ais523> and that's the one owned by the US Army
21:26:00 <alise> how reassuring!
21:26:00 <ais523> the root servers going down is pretty rare...
21:26:09 <alise> It's the terrists.
21:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously the nuclear holocaust is mere hours away.
21:27:23 * Phantom_Hoover continues thinking about graph-based esolangs.
21:27:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oklopol
21:27:45 <alise> Graphica
21:27:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Am I an oklo?
21:27:51 <alise> Eodermdrome
21:28:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oklopol's Graphica and ais523 's Eodermdrome
21:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Link?
21:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt is so useless words fail me.
21:29:13 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt
21:29:15 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
21:29:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there are also some vjn.fi/pb links by oklopol with graphica code in them in the logs
21:30:06 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk--.txt
21:30:37 <ais523> IIRC, Eodermdrome still hasn't been implemented
21:30:45 <ais523> although someone (oerjan?) wrote a program in it to prove TCness
21:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> What languages would be good for graph manipulation?
21:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> My brain has failed me on this.
21:31:20 <alise> ais523: oerjan, yeah
21:32:34 <alise> <-- (greater/less) (or equal to/than) -->
21:32:37 <alise> -- oklotalk--.txt
21:32:37 <alise> lol
21:33:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: this is probably why eodermdrome wasn't implemented
21:34:00 <ais523> because nobody can think of a lang that's remotely good to implement it in
21:34:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen some snippets of graphy code in Prolog...
21:34:44 <Phantom_Hoover> (A fact represents a connection betwixt nodes.)
21:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you could also just have
21:34:58 <alise> arc(a,b)
21:35:07 <alise> and e.g. value(a,42).
21:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> But Prolog doesn't like interfacing with the outside world very much.
21:35:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it does it alright...
21:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that is the point.
21:35:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i thought you meant like
21:35:36 <alise> a(b)
21:35:38 <alise> is arc(a,b)
21:35:39 <alise> which is bizarre
21:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably asserts would be used to parse
21:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, of course not.
21:35:49 <alise> yeah, and dynamic
21:35:50 <alise> did it have
21:35:55 <alise> arc(A,B) :- arc(B,A).
21:35:57 <alise> ?
21:36:00 <alise> or was it directional
21:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it was.
21:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> But we can do it that way.
21:36:28 <alise> bah markup formats suck!
21:37:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I love the Prolog pathfinding code:
21:37:59 <alise> path(A, B) :- arc(A, B).
21:38:00 <alise> path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B).
21:38:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Prolog is cool; this is indisputable.
21:38:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Utterly impractical, but so, so cool.
21:40:19 * alise debugs his path *recording* code
21:41:15 <alise> | ?- find_path(a,d,R).
21:41:15 <alise> R = [[a|d]] ? ; (forever)
21:41:18 <alise> that should not happen...
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, B, [[A|B]]) :- arc(A, B).
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, B, [[A|C]|R]) :-
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, C, R1),
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(C, B, R2),
21:41:23 <alise> append(R1, R2, R).
21:41:44 <cheater99> alise
21:42:01 <cheater99> is she cute http://tinyurl.com/2vqdepz
21:42:24 <alise> sheesh, i was even being on-topic
21:42:31 <alise> (Prolog counts as esoteric, right?)
21:42:40 <cheater99> not trying hard enough
21:42:59 <cheater99> it has existed for more than 1 year
21:43:02 <cheater99> AND has more than 100 users
21:43:06 <cheater99> :-/
21:44:14 <alise> i'm not sure anyone really uses prolog.
21:44:16 <alise> prolog uses them.
21:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> How would one delete nodes for this?
21:45:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: retract
21:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably you would need to deassert every arc containing them.
21:46:09 <cheater99> alise: it's not nice to not answer questions :(
21:46:12 <alise> ohh, wait, my path code is right
21:46:21 <alise> since it's not directional
21:46:29 <alise> cheater99: why are you asking, why me, and why in here?
21:46:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, assert(arc(a,b)).
21:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> retract(a).
21:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> arc(a,b).
21:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Still true.
21:47:13 <cheater99> alise: because i wonder what you think!
21:47:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: reatract(arc(a,b))
21:47:21 <alise> *retract
21:47:22 <alise> durr
21:47:25 <cheater99> just randomly
21:47:26 <alise> cheater99: why?
21:47:33 <cheater99> (you were the first person i saw talking on irc)
21:47:45 <Vorpal> alise, see /msg
21:47:59 <alise> | ?- path(a,x).
21:47:59 <alise> Fatal Error: local stack overflow (size: 8192 Kb, environment variable used: LOCALSZ)
21:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there actually a way of getting away with non-tail recursion?
21:48:40 <alise> sure
21:48:42 <alise> path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B), !.
21:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I meant generally.
21:49:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:49:32 <alise> | ?- find_path(a, d, R).
21:49:32 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:49:40 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:49:43 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:49:43 <alise> lol
21:50:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there's also retractall
21:50:34 <alise> http://bulba.sdsu.edu/prolog/parsing/recursion_and_assertion.htm
21:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, retract(arc(a,X)).
21:50:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: retractall
21:51:00 <alise> retractall(arc(a,_)).
21:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I see no particular difference there...
21:52:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Gyah, I've forgotten what cut does.
21:53:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: forgets about all backtracking opportunities
21:53:15 <alise> won't go back before the cut
21:53:19 <alise> and if it fails after that, it'll just fail.
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, your thing to make arcs undirected obviously leads to an infinite loop.
21:53:49 <Vorpal> um
21:53:58 <Vorpal> that seems incredibly messy
21:54:01 <alise> Vorpal: it's just paths...
21:54:05 <Vorpal> alise, ah
21:54:14 <Vorpal> alise, thought you had written code like that :P
21:55:32 <zzo38> If I have an account on LTSP and it log in using the Ubuntu GUI, how to set environment variables global to the account?
21:55:53 <alise> zzo38: .profile
21:56:41 <Vorpal> LTSP?
21:56:46 <zzo38> Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account?
21:56:47 <Vorpal> that sounds familiar
21:56:50 <Vorpal> what was it now again
21:57:03 <zzo38> Linux Terminal Server Project
21:58:10 <Vorpal> hm so thin clients?
21:58:12 <Vorpal> okay
21:59:28 <alise> <zzo38> Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account?
21:59:30 <alise> .xinitrc too
21:59:36 <alise> if you use X
21:59:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, did you ever actually write down Eodermdrone's command set?
22:00:18 <ais523> I wrote it on the wiki, didn't I?
22:00:36 <ais523> yep
22:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as far as I can see...
22:00:39 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
22:00:50 <ais523> it doesn't actually have any commands, that's a complete description of how it works
22:00:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I kind of see it.
22:00:59 <ais523> what makes you think all esolangs have to be based on commands?
22:01:05 <zzo38> It is X; that is what the terminal loads. It uses the graphical login screen and then loads that account in the X session (I think it is the GNOME session). I configured my account to start the bash terminal window at login, but I don't know how to make it automatically maximize the window.
22:02:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, no, I just skimmed the syntax section.
22:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> So I assumed that there was a predefined command set.
22:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover> So, do I start on the parser or the interpreter?
22:05:53 <alise> what parser?
22:06:01 <Sgeo> Everything seems much less crashy without Compiz
22:06:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, for Eodermdrome.
22:06:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what parser?
22:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> The one that goes from list of characters to assertions in Prolog.
22:06:57 <Phantom_Hoover> *a list
22:07:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: using dcgs i hope
22:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Distributed Common Ground Systems?
22:07:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog#Parser_example
22:09:13 <zzo38> Is theree a way to disable all of the options in the menu and use .xinitrc instead?
22:09:22 <alise> zzo38: maybe.
22:09:26 <alise> maybe not.
22:10:17 <zzo38> O, it says graphical login manager do not use .xinitrc it says I need .xsession instead.
22:10:58 -!- augur has joined.
22:11:31 <Sgeo> It took way too long for Akinator to guess "Yes-man" "Some Guy Who Always Presses "Yes""
22:15:32 <zzo38> (Also, I do not have administrative privilege on that computer)
22:16:03 <alise> Languages suck.
22:17:42 <alise> ais523: Please make a language that doesn't suck.
22:19:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do they suck this time?
22:19:36 <alise> All reasons!
22:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Let's focus on a specific area.
22:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do arithmetic operators suck?
22:21:43 <alise> Because.
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> What sucks about the + operator?
22:23:25 <alise> EVERYTHING
22:23:35 <Vorpal> alise, such as?
22:23:37 <ais523> it requires multithreading to implement efficiently in INTERCAL
22:23:43 <alise> ais523: yes, that.
22:23:44 <Vorpal> alise, what? +?
22:23:49 <Vorpal> err
22:23:50 <Vorpal> ais523, ^
22:24:05 <ais523> Vorpal: two threads; one to do the addition, the other to check when it's finished
22:24:10 <Vorpal> ais523, haha
22:24:22 <Vorpal> ais523, is that what the standard library does?
22:24:27 <ais523> no, it uses a less efficient version
22:24:31 <ais523> no threading in the stdlib
22:24:36 <Vorpal> ais523, but you optimise it?
22:24:38 <Vorpal> iirc
22:24:47 <ais523> it doesn't optimise all the way down to addition
22:24:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, INTERCAL doesn't suck!
22:24:55 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? why not?
22:24:57 <ais523> (unless you link a stdlib written in C rather than INTERCAL)
22:25:00 <Vorpal> hm
22:25:04 <ais523> Vorpal: because it only optimises individual statements
22:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Nor does dc!
22:25:12 <ais523> and INTERCAL addition requires a loop (or a very very very large expression)
22:25:14 <Vorpal> ais523, ah
22:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash
22:25:39 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
22:25:47 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
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