00:00:09 > ['a'..'z'] \\ (nub . sort . map toLower) "The quick, yet lazy brown fox jumpwedover my bix, doglike sphynx of qwertz." 00:00:10 "" 00:00:53 oerjan: that was me testing my new keyboard :D 00:00:59 ok 00:01:09 Sgeo: "yet" is redundant 00:01:10 a blend of jackdaws love... and the quick brown... obvs 00:01:37 oerjan, letterly, sure, but not semantically 00:06:04 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Image:Sprites.GIF Sherby Tepu 00:06:18 Things that annoy me: People who get annoyed by too many things. 00:06:30 reminds me of a calvin & hobbes cartoon 00:07:24 (calvin makes a list of things that annoy him, and hobbes suggests "negative people". or something like that.) 00:09:05 alas i read it in norwegian so even if it were on the internet it'd probably be hard to find) 00:09:08 *-) 00:09:45 oerjan: I recall that. 00:10:07 That's about the right phrasing. 00:11:18 ah "negative people" was the right phrase 00:14:15 curse bill watterson and his excessive copyright protectivism 00:15:47 Better than being a corporate whore, though. I can at least *respect* a guy who refuses any merchandising on principle. 00:19:22 planes as birds 00:19:34 Things that annoy me: People who feel the need to get a sense of self-superiority by not complaining about things. 00:19:43 we prefer to kill you in your sleep instead. 00:26:23 i propose we create war 00:26:35 what a stupid idea 00:29:59 oerjan: NO AWESOME 00:30:34 rubbish, you should be shot for making such an idiotic suggestion 00:31:05 hey oerjan, debracketise this for me, i'm too tired: 00:31:28 (((A and B) or C) and D) 00:32:01 (A and B or C) and D 00:33:11 thanks 00:38:34 Vagrant report: 63 lines, AI is still broken because cheater is moody 00:39:14 holy sit i've been gone two hours and my last message is still on the screen 00:40:53 man, the kind of AI you're doing is easy. why not just do it yourself? 00:40:58 yeah you just brag about your big screen 00:41:00 -!- augur has joined. 00:41:22 oerjan: that was more a jab at everyone's inactivity... 00:41:55 quintopia: i'm lazy and obfuscated python is a bitch 00:42:08 i've forgotten what my variables are for 00:42:27 if x if x>X+17:X+=1 00:42:28 if y if y>Y+5:Y+=1 00:42:33 i swear this is reducible 00:43:06 quintopia: you clearly cannot have been here during the times when it's _really_ silent and all you see is quit/join messages for hours... 00:43:08 alise: it is indeed, reducible, using cheater's o function you refuse to borrow 00:43:28 oerjan: those are off-peak hours. the two hours i was gone were near-peak 00:44:04 quintopia: what are you, cheater's lawyer? i didn't see that copysign could help 00:44:07 how can it help here? 00:44:23 one sec 00:44:52 i dunno python exactly, so this shall be pseudocode 00:46:33 if abs(X-x)>17 X-=o(1,X-x) should do the work of both the first two lines. 00:46:43 there may be a sign error in there, but i think that's it 00:46:54 err, wait, what does copysign do again? 00:46:57 you can do the same thing for y 00:46:59 o(n,+x) = +n 00:47:02 o(n,-x) = -n 00:47:03 ? 00:47:05 yeah 00:47:15 quintopia: then that's the same as cmp(X,x) I think 00:47:24 ah yes 00:47:30 didn't know py had that func 00:47:30 >>> cmp(3,34) 00:47:31 -1 00:47:31 >>> cmp(3,2) 00:47:31 1 00:47:44 same chars too :P 00:48:09 rename it to a letter to save space :D 00:49:01 should buy you two characters... 00:49:15 quintopia: it works, thanks! 00:49:17 at the cost of the define operation 00:49:21 er, almost 00:49:25 if abs(X-x)>17:X+=cmp(x,X) 00:49:26 if abs(Y-y)>5:X+=cmp(y,Y) 00:49:27 spot the error 00:49:44 quintopia: well i use cmp elsewhere, albeit in broken ai code 00:49:56 but 1, I have very few letters left, and 2, i use range more often (four times) 00:49:58 and that has a longer name 00:50:00 so it'd take priority 00:50:21 alise: 17< and 5< to save a space, surely? 00:50:34 oerjan: how does that save a space, exactly? 00:50:39 if17 doesn't work 00:50:42 oh 00:50:44 alise: can you use extended ascii in var names? 00:50:45 bah 00:50:52 quintopia: no :P 00:51:01 lamesauce 00:51:20 alise: what do those lines do that they shouldn't? 00:51:36 oh 00:51:37 nvm 00:51:38 oerjan: however 00:51:40 i see it 00:51:40 X+=17 lol 00:51:47 BEHOLD THE PAIN 00:51:58 this works, unbelievably 00:52:02 wow 00:52:03 take that, four lines 00:52:18 quintopia: yeah i abuse integers-as-booleans and vice versa so much in this program :P 00:52:25 q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(T)if U and r(0,2)==0 and q-32 else q) 00:52:29 q-32 for q!=32? why not 00:52:35 def Q(x,p=0):global V;v=V;V=lambda:(v()and C(x)or p)and s.getkey() 00:52:39 because fuck you, using def is too long 00:52:52 alise: py uses -1 as false? 00:52:56 no 00:52:59 0 00:53:02 erm 00:53:06 then i'm not seeing how that works 00:53:06 yaeh, so 00:53:10 q-32 00:53:10 if q=32 00:53:11 doesn't python have && ? 00:53:12 then 32-32 = 0 00:53:15 thus 0 is false 00:53:17 so it's q != 32 00:53:21 negatives are true too 00:53:23 oerjan: no. 00:53:24 alas 00:53:39 it *does* have bitwise and 00:53:50 which is shockingly defined on booleans 00:53:54 BRB codetweaking 00:54:10 alise: i don't see how 17 explain to this python non-knowing person 00:54:25 quintopia: cmp is -1 if less 00:54:27 0 if equal 00:54:30 1 if greater 00:54:41 True and x = x, even if x is a horse, not a boolean 00:54:50 oh 00:54:52 funky 00:55:01 TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for &: 'int' and 'NoneType' 00:55:02 i know how cmp works 00:55:04 FUCK YOU GUIDO 00:55:13 but never seen and return non-bools 00:56:55 i wonder if there's a better way to write 00:56:57 S=max(S-1,0) 00:57:04 i.e. inc S only if S>=0 00:57:50 S+(S>=0) 00:57:51 ? 00:57:57 *+=\ 00:58:04 bleg 00:58:35 -!- cpressey has joined. 00:58:53 AKA S+=(S>=0) 00:59:06 quintopia: you mean -= 00:59:27 well, your code said minus, but your text afterward said increment 00:59:31 i followed the english spec 00:59:49 also er >0 obviously 00:59:55 S-=S>0 01:00:10 does > have higher precedence? 01:00:14 no 01:00:19 assignments aren't expressions 01:00:31 oh 01:00:39 i am pretty proud with how tiny this code is 01:00:41 they're still opertors 01:00:47 i scroll through it all and think "that's it??" 01:00:56 i've never done python, but it already seems really strange 01:00:59 quintopia: yes, but you can put anything that doesn't have a ; in it on the right of = 01:01:02 pretty much 01:01:12 no, python's basically just the most boring language ever, on purpose 01:01:22 you have to be cunning, like me, to do perverse things 01:01:28 duck typing isn't all that boring actually 01:01:48 duck typing turns me on 01:01:59 that's because you're a quack 01:02:02 Yeah, Python focuses on not being surprising. And it succeeds at that. 01:02:20 alise: can i see a current snapshot? 01:02:32 Problem being that interesting things are often surprising. :) 01:03:02 pikhq: you can be interesting and surprising even given the most mundane material to work with 01:03:03 no python violates POLS a lot 01:03:09 Ruby doesn't so much 01:03:26 python is very surprising, but if you do boring stuff it's ... boring like you expect 01:03:26 ruby i have played with. i like it a lot. it's neat. 01:03:31 quintopia: http://pastie.org/1204286.txt?key=iqxs2n6fgidpua9mnwpbrw 01:03:35 quintopia: complete with broken ai 01:03:38 (from q=w.copy() to w=q) 01:03:52 quintopia: debug.py: 01:03:56 [[ 01:04:00 import sys 01:04:00 def hook(t,v,b):endwin();sys.__excepthook__(t,v,b) 01:04:00 sys.excepthook=hook 01:04:00 execfile('vagrant.py') 01:04:01 ]] 01:04:09 if you modify the code at all, this is vital; it lets you see exceptions 01:04:20 the normal script calls endwin() and they get sucked up before they're displayed 01:04:41 why? 01:04:51 alise: But it's quite surprising for a modern language to actually not violate POLS. :P 01:04:56 breaks curses? 01:05:17 quintopia: endwin() resets the terminal and all the curses stuff goes 01:05:26 but it's in an exit handler 01:05:32 which is called *after* the exception is displayed 01:05:34 meaning it gets sucked up 01:05:58 ah aha 01:06:12 well, i wasn't planning on running it just yet...just look 01:06:30 quintopia: it only wipes your hard drive if you want 01:06:33 if you do, controls are trivial 01:06:37 vikeys to move including diagonals 01:06:44 q quaffs potion 01:06:48 everything else pauses 01:06:49 Ctrl+C to quit 01:07:06 ! is potion, # wall (cube of impenetrable yet transparent glass -- you can see beyond it!) 01:07:18 % is food (just walk into it; 1/15 chance of tripping balls) 01:07:22 $ is cash 01:07:32 Q is hopelessly confused, nonviolent monsters; if you want rid of one, walk into it 01:07:51 S is satiation, run out and you die quickly, eat to stop that 01:08:15 going into a ! will add to your potion-meter, displayed in parens next to HP; q to move 20 or whatever you have if it's less from potion meter to HP meter 01:08:27 most everything is random so i can't give specific values. 01:10:09 if S<1:L=max(L-25,0) 01:10:09 hmm 01:10:28 if S<1:L-=(L>0)*25 01:10:31 unbelievably, shorter 01:11:01 if you come to Python from a language with block scope you will be surprised, oh yes. 01:11:06 and it works :) 01:12:24 U+=U>0 01:12:26 another simplification 01:12:34 quintopia: thanks for making my brain realise that works 01:12:41 seeing this makes me want to design a golfing language 01:12:43 alise: so there's no model behind the view? if you walk onto something, it ceases to exist? 01:12:54 quintopia: yup. 01:12:59 bitchen! 01:13:01 quintopia: well there is one bit of model, your x and y 01:13:07 would be way too much work to find you every turn :P 01:13:17 quintopia: also you *could* store an inventory 01:13:21 cpressey: isn't that what perl is for? 01:13:23 but it'd be a bit of a bitch 01:13:39 if S<1:L-=(L>0)*25 01:13:39 if S<1 and L:L-=25 01:13:44 oof, same length! 01:13:59 coolness or sanity... HMMMM 01:14:04 quintopia: it's what flogscript is for, literally, but i haven't checked it out yet. 01:14:59 L-=(S<1and25) 01:15:03 cpressey: golfscript too 01:15:04 i don't know if that works 01:15:07 cpressey: no it does not 01:15:21 L-=S<1 and 25 01:15:23 should though! 01:15:24 thanks 01:15:30 what so just syntax? 01:15:37 yep 01:15:39 what if S<1, then L-=1? 01:15:55 oh hm you forgot to include L in that conditional 01:16:03 alise: L-=25*(S<1 and L) perhaps? 01:16:08 L-=S<1 and(L>0)*25 01:16:11 same length again 01:16:22 oerjan: you win! 01:16:24 thanks 01:16:25 L-=S>1and o(25,L) 01:16:28 oh well 01:16:34 quintopia: "1and" 01:16:35 doesn't work 01:16:47 when can you delete space? 01:16:57 after a ) or ' or " pretty much 01:16:59 oerjan's is shorter by one whole character! 01:17:11 and wtf does "1and" not work, guido? 01:17:20 it's a 1. it's an and. 01:17:34 alise: oh wait it nneds to be (L and S<1), not? 01:17:40 *needs 01:17:50 oerjan: ah yse 01:17:52 *yes 01:17:58 thank you good sir 01:18:08 ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py 01:18:08 1723 vagrant.py 01:18:15 should be around the same size with working AI, too 01:18:21 not bad! 01:18:35 57 lines 01:18:46 holy shit. you've come down a whole 3 characters on that one line in the last 15 minutes!\ 01:18:54 :D 01:18:56 yaaay 01:19:12 how many pages of code is 58 lines? (one wraps) 01:19:15 i'm not sure 01:19:18 one? two? 01:19:28 by what measure? 01:19:32 whatever it is, it's remarkably playable. moreso when the monsters get a brain 01:19:38 quintopia: i dunno, people measure in pages of code all the time 01:19:48 i ask them the same question... 01:20:00 usually, it's print out in 12pt monospace font 01:20:07 1" margins 01:20:43 what's that o function again 01:21:00 copysign 01:21:01 istr a "page" being sixtysome, by some printer's reckoning 01:21:14 and wth is _that_ 01:21:26 read up the channel 01:21:28 alise defined it 01:21:33 bah 01:21:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:21:37 i didn't 01:21:40 the math module did 01:21:43 :P 01:21:47 oerjan: copysign(x,+n)=+x 01:21:51 copysign(x,-n)=-x 01:21:51 that is 01:22:01 copysign(x,n) = x sgn(n) 01:22:23 copysign is either a very lame function or a very cool function. i cannot decide. 01:22:45 sgn is already a cool function 01:23:14 since one can define it as x and x/abs(x) 01:23:52 i see quintopia has assimilated the crazy and notation :P 01:24:11 hallu in my game is so hardcore 01:24:13 which makes copysign x and x*x/abs(x) 01:24:17 now, this silliness shall continue, but tomorrow! 01:24:26 i like syntactic sugars, i must admit 01:24:30 WHO USES and FOR WHATEVER THE HELL THAT IS? 01:24:48 pikhq: x and y = y if x != 0, otherwise 0 01:24:49 >:) 01:24:50 x and x/abs(x) may be going a bit far, I agree 01:25:00 pikhq: the reason: i'm using it in my crazy golfed roguelike 01:25:02 because it's short! 01:25:05 pikhq: short-circuiting for fun and profit has been around since C was invented 01:25:10 that too 01:25:17 quintopia: so why did it surprise you? 01:25:21 just not used to python doing it? 01:25:24 is there a name for "short-circuit and evaluate to" like this, though? 01:25:30 lua does it 01:25:31 perl does it 01:25:34 cpressey: ruby too 01:25:39 so they all do it 01:25:41 well, i'm not used to it behaving /precisely/ like that 01:25:43 "they" 01:25:47 it totally does quintopia 01:25:54 quintopia: Buuut "x and y" as "x ? y : 0"? What crazy crack is that? 01:25:55 y if x is true otherwise x 01:26:00 pikhq: x ? y : x 01:26:05 '' is also false 01:26:05 also 01:26:08 perl, ruby, python, lua 01:26:10 everything does it 01:26:12 pikhq: yeah i know. that's the part that surprised me 01:26:15 every dynamic scripting language, more or less 01:26:23 x and y === x?y:x 01:26:24 um... whatsit called... 01:26:33 now really 01:26:35 that lnguage with the same name as one of the TRON characters 01:26:35 Goodnight. 01:26:37 Bye :) 01:26:39 g'night alise 01:26:41 cpressey: bastion 01:26:43 baibai 01:26:44 ^lies 01:26:45 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:27:00 Is the humble indie bundle server down? 01:27:02 FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu 01:27:18 CLU 01:27:19 I can totally access IPv6 Google. \o/ 01:27:19 | 01:27:19 /< 01:27:35 i think clu introduced it, or at least, claimed to have 01:27:42 wait, is that a TRON character? 01:28:03 alas it seems to require dynamic typing 01:28:08 yes. yes it is. 01:28:16 b/c wp has a page "List of Tron Characters" 01:28:19 I KNEW IT WOULD 01:28:52 * quintopia disappears 01:29:03 since either x or y can be returned, and x needs to be something treatable as a boolean 01:30:03 "Bit is a character from the movie Tron. Representing a bit (binary digit), it was only capable of providing yes or no answers to any question. Despite this it still managed to convey emotion and other levels of complexity." 01:30:36 oerjan: that doesn't require dynamic typing 01:30:40 only "truthiness" 01:30:54 well i'm sure you _could_ define a suitable haskell typeclass :D 01:30:59 for every type t there is a function t -> bool 01:31:23 but i don't think there's a common one that quite fits 01:31:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:31:46 common? no. 01:31:50 oh hm 01:31:52 that is kind of the problem with truthiness 01:32:02 i have yet to get used to the fact that in Python, [] is false 01:34:16 class Truthy a where truthiness :: a -> Bool 01:36:07 cpressey: surely that's borrowed from lisp 01:39:50 oerjan: possibly, but both perl and lua treat empty list(/table) as true 01:40:01 because... 01:40:06 you allocated memory for it! 01:40:09 i guess. 01:40:46 -!- augur has joined. 01:55:25 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:00:10 -!- sshc has joined. 02:27:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:41:14 !help 02:41:15 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 02:41:21 !hepl languages 02:41:26 !help languages 02:41:26 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 02:42:02 did we ever get factor onto this puppy? 02:43:01 !ls /bin 02:43:14 no wait that's hackego 02:43:22 ^help 02:43:22 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 02:43:27 no wait that's fungot 02:43:27 cpressey: i can hear you typing. i don't 02:43:29 TOO MANY BOTS 02:44:08 HackEgo: help 02:44:10 cpressey: i think someone said factor was removed again for some reason 02:44:37 HackEgo: what is your control introducer character 02:44:39 !sh ls /bin 02:44:54 HackEgo: WAKE UP 02:44:55 now what 02:44:58 bash 02:45:00 !echo hi 02:45:01 hi 02:45:08 oh it was just slow 02:45:19 also, used DCC 02:45:26 !sh ls /usr/bin 02:45:26 X11 02:45:36 !sh echo $PATH 02:45:36 /sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin 02:45:41 !sh ls /sbin 02:45:41 /bin/ls: cannot access /sbin: No such file or directory 02:45:46 right on 02:45:52 !sh ls /usr/sbin 02:45:52 accessdb 02:45:58 !sh ls /bin | fmt -w400 | head -1 02:46:03 bash bunzip2 busybox bzcat bzcmp bzdiff bzegrep bzexe bzfgrep bzgrep bzip2 bzip2recover bzless bzmore cat chgrp chmod chown chvt cp cpio date dd df dir dmesg dnsdomainname domainname dumpkeys echo ed egrep false fgconsole fgrep fuser grep gunzip gzexe gzip hostname ip kbd_mode kill less lessecho lessfile lesskey lesspipe ln loadkeys login ls lsmod mkdir mknod mktemp more 02:46:05 OH 02:46:14 being tricky, eh EgoBot? 02:46:46 !sh false 02:47:03 !haskell [1,2,3] 02:47:15 !dmesg 02:47:23 !sh dmesg 02:47:28 ok, i'll wait 02:47:54 `echo hi 02:48:06 @tell Gregor please make your bots slightly less user-hostile than OpenBSD 02:48:06 Consider it noted. 02:48:18 hi 02:48:29 !echo hi 02:48:31 Doood, my bots are so not hostile at all :P 02:48:31 Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 02:48:39 hi 02:48:53 lambdabot: SHUT UP NOÖNE CARES 02:48:54 I was going to say "more user-friendly" but... yeah 02:49:13 it seems to have ignored some of cpressey's messages 02:49:21 !haskell [1,2,3] 02:49:24 [1,2,3] 02:49:26 !ping 02:49:52 see, what it could do there is say "screw you cpressey, i have no symbol table entry for this 'ping' of which you speak" 02:51:01 !haskell :t [1,2,3] 02:51:02 [1,2,3] :: (Num t) => [t] 02:51:55 !ping 02:52:14 !echo test 02:52:14 test 02:53:17 !haskell :t (>>=) 02:53:19 (>>=) :: (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 02:56:06 what happens if bind is "overspecified" as: m a -> (a -> m a) -> m a ? 02:56:16 kind of like, once you pick a type, you're stuck with it? 03:01:35 um yeah but that wouldn't give a legal Monad instance, a and b must vary freely 03:02:07 :t (>>=) 03:02:08 forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 03:02:58 i see; for ALL a and b. hm 03:04:21 -!- lament has joined. 03:04:38 the forall syntax is an extension for "higher-rank" types, in basic haskell it's implicitly applied in front of all type declarations 03:05:25 :t runST -- a function which uses a second-rank type 03:05:26 forall a. (forall s. ST s a) -> a 03:05:53 (for particularly magical purposes btw) 03:12:19 charmed, i'm sure. 03:13:55 hi cpressey 03:14:05 e-cypress 03:16:34 omg he's really a tree! 03:21:04 hi mantel 03:32:17 !sh dmesg | grep usb 03:32:49 didn't expect much there anyway... 03:33:05 !asm lda #ff; sta $0001 03:33:17 Does not compile. 03:33:49 which assembly is that? i386? 03:33:58 looks like 6502 to me 03:34:02 "320 kbps" STOP DOING THAT IT IS RAPE OF YOUR MP3 ENCODER 03:34:04 STOP IT 03:34:44 I wonder. 03:34:45 @messages 03:34:45 cpressey said 46m 39s ago: please make your bots slightly less user-hostile than OpenBSD 03:34:58 Haw, no /msg for YOUUUUUUU 03:35:00 Wait, lambdabot? 03:35:18 pikhq: #esoteric does NOT HAVE ENOUGH BOTS 03:35:33 Is #esoteric on the regular lambdabot join list now? 03:36:27 i vaguely recall a comment to effect of "no promise it will stay", so probably not 03:36:33 *the effect 03:37:10 Okay then. 03:38:45 i guess i should be writin' up another, gratuitous bot to run here eh 03:39:29 which for obvious reasons should be called cpbot 03:42:01 how about botbotbot 03:48:52 -!- cpressey has changed nick to botbotbot. 03:48:58 -!- botbotbot has changed nick to cpressey. 03:49:04 not what i meant. 03:49:38 bigbadbot 03:51:07 -!- augur has joined. 03:52:05 botbotbot is more fun to say 03:56:38 but but but 03:57:33 played paranoia today 03:57:34 it was <3 03:58:15 we killed commies: http://bit.ly/aP8qdB 04:02:48 mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot 04:03:01 -!- cpressey has changed nick to mzstorkipiwanbot. 04:03:17 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has changed nick to cpressey. 04:03:51 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:04:52 eek 04:05:36 well i guess that means we'll soon find out if we're on the join list 04:07:27 oerjan: BTW: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/ 04:08:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:11:21 huh so it actually has some net presence 04:11:23 -!- pineal_aenimal has joined. 04:11:31 I always said those mutant traitors were ugly 04:11:57 oerjan: Legally! 04:12:58 so not quite as bad as Larson, iiuc 04:13:10 (The Far Side) 04:13:42 Yuh. 04:14:40 -!- aschueler has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:14:48 >: 04:15:03 the cheatsheet alise gave me for writing an ircbot isn't working 04:16:30 i need to have registered to join #esoteric? 04:16:49 that seems wrong 04:16:55 -!- cpressey has left (?). 04:17:06 -!- carbolihy has joined. 04:17:13 -!- carbolihy has changed nick to cpressey. 04:18:12 cpressey: ... huh? 04:18:52 -!- cpressey has changed nick to mzstorkipiwanbot. 04:18:58 pikhq: i cannot seem to find the one i mentioned before - at least "negative people" gives no hits 04:19:26 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has changed nick to cpressey. 04:20:25 Gregor: I do nc to irc.freenode.net 04:20:31 then NICK mzstorkipiwanbot 04:20:35 the JOIN #esoteric 04:20:40 and it tells me I'm not registered 04:20:42 and kicks me 04:20:48 oerjan: Hrmf. 04:20:50 even though I just registered too 04:21:49 There are steps between NICK and JOIN 04:21:53 Actually, before NICK IIRC. 04:21:54 One sec. 04:22:07 >: 04:22:11 alise never told me that 04:22:22 oh oh oh 04:22:23 USER 04:22:24 k 04:22:57 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined. 04:23:04 There we go 04:23:11 pikhq: i guess they have no searchable transcripts, only some tags 04:23:17 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has quit (Client Quit). 04:23:31 Didn't have USER. 04:23:40 Ahyeah, you figured that out before I did :P 04:32:33 how to write an IRC bot: Start with PircBot and then worry about writing the actual functionality. 04:33:00 still not doin' it right 04:33:42 but if i do it manually, it works 04:33:54 add in some delays 04:36:14 nope, taint it 04:44:23 -!- wawawa has joined. 04:44:34 hi 04:44:38 -!- wawawa has quit (Client Quit). 04:51:45 isolated unity. 04:52:50 oh foo. i bet it's because stdout is buffer, eh what? 04:53:58 -!- grha has joined. 04:54:00 yeah i'm pretty sure you need at least line buffering 04:54:00 :oerjan: I disagree! 04:54:01 -!- grha has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:54:14 wow 04:54:23 wow a run-by argument :D 04:54:59 It was PRIVMSGing itself ("I disagree!") in a loop so I killed it. 04:55:19 oh that and wawawa were your bot? 04:56:33 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined. 04:56:43 everything up to grha was me trying to figure out why my bot wasn't working 04:56:46 THAT is my bot. 04:56:53 mzstorkipiwanbot: You're my bot! 04:56:53 cpressey: I disagree! 04:57:10 mzstorkipiwanbot: You're a very sophisticated bot. 04:57:10 cpressey: I disagree! 04:57:26 -!- pineal_aenimal has quit. 04:58:32 also, slap me for writing it in python, but it was convenient. 05:02:17 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:03:27 rrhhh? 05:04:58 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined. 05:05:41 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:06:43 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined. 05:06:48 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:07:53 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined. 05:08:39 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:11:28 You might want to test that in some channel other than #esoteric 'til it works :P 05:12:17 Gregor: How do I send a multi-word PRIVMSG to a user? 05:12:31 PRIVMSG username :Stuff 05:12:46 oh Mr. Colon 05:12:47 That generalizes: If you start an argument with ":", that means the argument continues to the end of the line. 05:13:10 k the 05:13:14 *then. 05:13:22 forgive the joinpartspamming 05:14:04 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined. 05:14:30 mzstorkipiwanbot: Hi. I see you registered with NickServ! Good for you! 05:14:30 cpressey: I disagree! 05:18:11 you know mzstorkipiwanbot, i'm a-gonna teach you to execute scheme. and feel pain 05:18:38 mzstorkipiwanbot: oh dear your creator is a megalomaniac! 05:18:39 oerjan: I disagree! 05:19:15 well it's your problem 05:19:23 mzstorkipiwanbot, I should not be crowned King of the Universe. 05:19:32 mzstorkipiwanbot: I should not be crowned King of the Universe. 05:19:33 Sgeo: I disagree! 05:23:50 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:24:21 so I need to respond to pings or something? 05:24:30 yes 05:25:50 that's what it means to feel pain, for an irc bot 05:26:24 with a pong 05:26:27 now say that in toki pona (or whatever it's called) 05:27:47 GreaseMonkey: Toki Pona. 05:28:12 * pikhq should devise a kanji mapping scheme for that 05:28:15 that's what it means to feel pain, for an irc bot <-- !translate english toki-pona 05:29:47 Thus creating an overly complex orthography for an overly simple language. 05:30:11 Okay, so it'd be much less complex when there's only 118 characters. Still. 05:30:53 ilo nanpa toki pi tomo toki li pilin ike kepeken ni. 05:31:09 Gloss? 05:31:21 no, matte only 05:32:15 -!- wareya_ has joined. 05:34:43 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:37:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:41:28 i guess I could just say PONG :unknown and it accepts it 05:41:45 but i went through the whole rigamarole of figuring out what my hostname is anyway 05:46:37 i have a feeling you're supposed to just bounce the message back with one letter changed 05:47:34 but which letter? 05:47:38 the I 05:47:41 s/I/O/g 05:47:50 no g surely 05:48:37 so I should say PONG :gogol.freenode.net? that seems... ingracious 05:48:37 although if it doesn't accept what you bang back in whatever valid format, it's probably a screwed up server 05:48:55 you should take the message, change the PING to PONG, and send it back 05:49:07 mfmh. o 05:49:12 *ok 05:49:37 experimentation indicates it doesn't care 05:54:48 -!- augur has joined. 06:01:22 -!- antivigilante_ has joined. 06:17:11 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined. 06:17:36 mzstorkipiwanbot: wat. 06:17:36 cpressey: I disagree! 06:18:01 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:21:38 @hi 06:21:46 `hi 06:21:51 ^hi 06:21:55 !hi 06:22:00 :hi 06:22:04 Why don't the TLDs have A records? 06:22:33 Rather, why don't they *all* have A records? 06:22:38 because no website is "com"? 06:22:55 No output. 06:23:00 wow 06:23:12 typing http://com/ into firefox takes me to cnet 06:23:36 http://www.cnet.com/ to be precise 06:23:41 Probably taking you to com.com. 06:23:42 i wonder how they finagled that 06:24:05 pikhq: indeed yes 06:24:23 And com has no A record, so Firefox tries adding .com. 06:24:58 But seriously, why not just have the A record point to the site of the operator of the TLD? 06:25:35 (and the AAAA record, of course) 06:25:55 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:26:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 06:27:06 Hmm. http://例え.テスト/ is a real thing. 06:29:28 indeed yes. running mediawiki! 06:30:41 Hooray, truly internationalised TLDs. 06:31:04 http://עברית.idn.icann.org/ 06:31:22 the mix of LtoR and RtoL in the URL is disconcerting 06:32:40 Mixed text is a bit disconcerting. 06:32:50 But, it's accepted practice for RtoL scripts, so... 06:33:07 Huh. Antarctica has a TLD. 06:36:30 Yup, .aq 06:38:41 aq. 86400 IN SOA ns1.dns.aq. noc.swizzle.co.nz. 2010100201 28000 3600 604800 86400 06:40:12 I'd like a zone transfer on aq! 06:44:17 'night 06:44:51 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 06:47:00 bbl university 06:49:05 BE BG BIZ BR CAT CH CZ DK EDU EU FR INFO LC LI LK MUSEUM NA NU ORG PM PR PT RE SE TF TH TM UK US VC YT 06:51:54 -!- sftp has joined. 06:53:04 (the TLDs that have DS records in root zone, no AQ in there...) :-/ 06:53:43 -!- Guest89141 has joined. 06:54:03 (actually, non IDN ones...) 06:54:13 wootwoot, I proved a hard proof for marks 06:54:31 and as I sort of expected, it's really elegant in the end :) 07:00:12 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:00:50 -!- antivigilante_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:06:46 -!- tombom has joined. 07:08:10 of course copysign helps 07:08:21 alise is not being smart 07:14:27 -!- antivigilante_ has joined. 07:19:52 -!- antivigilante_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:33:28 -!- antivigilante_ has joined. 07:52:33 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:55:13 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:58:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:59:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:06 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:05:14 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:11:03 "Cat Head Detection - How to Effectively Exploit Shape and Texture Features" -- http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/jiansun/papers/ECCV08_CatDetection.pdf 08:11:12 Microsoft Research: bleeding-edge cat detection. 08:11:34 "Second, people love cats. A large amount of cat images have been uploaded and shared on the web. For example, 2,594,329 cat images had been manually annotated in flickr.com by users. Cat photos are among the most popular animal photos on the internet." 08:19:16 My god do they ever 08:19:30 I'm pretty sure felix domesticus is native to the internet 08:33:40 -!- antivigilante_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:59:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:08:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:14:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:28:00 hello sweethearts 09:32:31 -!- antivigilante has joined. 09:32:34 -!- antivigilante_ has joined. 09:44:43 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:00:57 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 10:36:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:37:15 -!- augur has joined. 11:04:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 11:23:40 hi fungot! 11:23:41 ais523: i found something which _might_ work on win98? dunno... :) 11:24:04 fungot: what is it? 11:24:05 ais523: lea is a dirty open source hippie commies? yes you can 11:25:36 hmm, IRC's working fine, but the DNS seems to have gone down 11:39:36 -!- antivigilante__ has joined. 11:39:44 -!- antivigilante_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 12:14:06 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 12:18:05 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:38:26 -!- quintipod has joined. 12:38:42 Woooooah 12:43:32 hi 12:43:58 Hi 12:48:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:48:05 any news? anything up-and-coming in the world of esolanging? 12:48:20 I think I invented a new esolang last night, I may have to tweak it if it turns out to be sub-TC (although I think it's TC) 12:48:45 What is it? 12:48:50 Esolanging? Nahhh. I am going caving and camping starting this afternoon and lasting all weekend though 12:49:12 Slereah: a cross between http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sansism and http://esolangs.org/wiki/1L 12:54:37 I can only imagine 12:56:32 My favorite esolang right now is Minecraft 13:00:28 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:05:25 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:07:33 -!- quintipod has quit (Quit: Busy busy busy). 13:12:18 hmm, I was just looking over my old esoprograms 13:12:47 I'm amused by the "tenloop" in Unassignable, that exists to make a single decimal digit 13:13:35 it's implemented as a three-bit number, and a four-bit number; the three-bit number adds/subtracts 6 to the four-bit number when it overflows/underflows, the four-bit number subtracts/adds 2 to the three-bit number when it overflows/underflows 13:28:19 hmm, who's 79.75.203.167? they wrote a P'' interp in INTERCAL, to prove it TC 13:28:23 I'm wondering if it's someone in this channel 13:28:40 in fact, I was wondering whether it was me to start with, but that isn't my IP 13:29:01 also, I probably wouldn't have used CLC-INTERCAL 13:30:10 -!- alise has joined. 13:30:28 Dreaming is illegal 13:32:26 hi alise 13:32:38 Hi. 13:32:41 Illegal! Wake up 13:48:51 "Worcestershire sauce, the popular English sauce, is made from dissolved anchovies. The anchovies are soaked in vinegar until they have completely melted. The sauce contains the bones and all." 13:48:54 did not know; did not want to know 13:51:38 hm, why is the heart often associated with love? I mean, biologically that is nonsense as far as I know... 13:52:43 if it is just a leftover from before people knew that (which seems probable), then two new questions arise: 13:52:52 1) why would anyone think it was related to love in the first place 13:52:56 hey, you deduced the obvious and called it probable, congrats 13:53:00 Vorpal: because you think with your heart. 13:53:16 (no, you don't think with your brain, that just coordinates the body a bit, why would you think that?) 13:53:20 2) why is it still used as a symbol for love 13:53:23 (the heart is the main part of the body, you think with it) 13:53:36 2) why do we still celebrate halloween? 13:53:54 alise, well, I don't know. We don't where I live :P 13:53:56 why do we still use elements of things that we as a whole reject 13:53:56 for an entirely different reason than we originally celebrated halloween 13:54:06 precisely, and we don't *really* think the heart loves 13:54:09 more or less like Christmas has changed in meaning over the years 13:54:10 we just kept it 13:54:15 also, hearts don't look like <3! 13:54:16 how surprising! 13:54:24 nowadays, it's just an indication of trick-or-treating and NetHack tournaments 13:54:43 The heart has long been used as a symbol to refer to the spiritual, emotional, moral, and in the past also intellectual core of a human being. As the heart was once widely believed to be the seat of the human mind, the word heart continues to be used poetically to refer to the soul, and stylized depictions of hearts are used as prevalent symbols representing love. 13:54:59 alise, why didn't love end up getting associated with, say, the liver? 13:55:05 because you don't think with your liver 13:55:05 it seems equally random 13:55:07 your liver just sits tehre 13:55:08 *there 13:55:16 you can hear your heart going, it's near where you talk and stuff 13:55:20 hm 13:55:34 okay that seems like a plausible logic for it 13:55:51 HA 13:55:52 The Roman physician Galen located the seat of the passions in the liver, the seat of reason in the brain, and considered the heart to be the seat of the emotions. While Galen's identification of the heart with emotion were proposed as a part of his theory of the circulatory system, the heart has continued to be used as a symbolic source of human emotions even after the rejection of such beliefs.[2] 13:55:56 "seat of passions in the liver" 13:56:04 Vorpal: i reject your question, it makes a false assumption! 13:56:06 alise, I swear I didn't know about that one :P 13:56:10 we DID think that! or at least, something relatively close to that 13:56:12 lust not love i guess 13:56:22 alise, anyone thought it was in the spleen? 13:56:30 me 13:56:35 ;P 13:56:39 (but no, i don't think anyone did, historically) 13:56:48 but then I didn't think anyone would place passion inside the liver, either 13:57:01 nor did I 13:57:19 I just picked a random organ in the torso above 13:58:32 alise, btw, what did they think the brain was for back when they thought you used the heart to think with? 13:58:51 not much. like the liver 13:58:54 hm 13:59:08 maybe it just relays stuff. if they even had a concept of signals being sent around then 13:59:13 or maybe it just regulates some random thing or another 14:00:15 hmm, this phishing 419 spam (claiming to be from Benin, rather than Nigeria) is asking for the answers to a list of questions I don't even understand 14:00:41 they want "Your. " Receiver, Country, City, Tel, Test question, Answer, and Passport 14:01:47 sounds Benin to me 14:01:50 *shot* 14:02:03 I mean, how do I send my passport via email? 14:02:08 how do I know what the question is? 14:02:09 scan it? 14:02:10 ais523, put it in the floppy drive? 14:02:34 maybe I'll photograph it on a wooden table, screenshot Photoshop with the photo open, paste it into Word and send that 14:02:38 This keyboard has surprisingly good tactile response for Logitech. 14:02:41 Although I'm still getting used to it... 14:02:44 And it's a bit loud :) 14:02:56 ais523, as for "Receiver", they presumably want a scan of your TV receiver antenna or such? 14:02:59 (where by "maybe" I mean "there's no chance that") 14:03:04 Vorpal: perhaps 14:03:22 presumably they're going to ignore the answers anyway, they're just looking for someone who responds to 419 scams 14:03:40 ais523: no love for "whereby"? 14:03:56 kind-of, where by, you are strange :) 14:04:07 "whereby" means something else, doesn't it? 14:04:09 ais523, because anyone _still_ doing that would have to be faking it? 14:04:17 Vorpal: you'd be surprised 14:04:24 ais523: whereby = by which 14:04:43 definitely, whereby makes sense ehre 14:04:52 a couple of days ago (I think when clog was down, not sure) I commented on a reddit commenter who said that when parked domains full of ads were visited, they had a clickthrough rate of above 50% as there was nothing else to click on 14:04:55 Other heads saw devolution as a whole new way of life and adopted an approach whereby the power of devolution was used to enable the school to drive the ... 14:04:56 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wikt:whereby - Cached 14:04:59 x was used to enable y 14:05:04 because most people didn't realise it wasn't the site they wanted to visit 14:05:04 x was used to mean y 14:05:05 hmm 14:05:08 maybe you're right. 14:05:18 I think "where by" is just as incorrect, though, if it is indeed incorrect 14:05:35 ais523: hasn't hit me yet 14:05:37 (I know that a while back, when a quirk in Google made a newspaper story the top search result for Facebook, several people tried to log into Facebook via its comment form) 14:05:44 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wikt:whereby - Cached <-- wikt: ? 14:05:49 wiktionary 14:05:51 ah 14:05:51 wikitionary 14:05:52 whatever 14:05:56 wiki tonary 14:06:08 isn't that a separate domain? 14:06:28 hm they forward it 14:06:30 heh 14:08:05 ais523, how many is several? Also, I wonder how bad this is and how much is selective reporting. There has to be lots of cases where some google result ordering quirk did *not* cause similar effects. 14:08:12 Vorpal: I'm not sure 14:08:25 and presumably the majority didn't get confused 14:08:43 or at least if they did, didn't try to log in using the comment system 14:09:09 "Several" was rather surprisingly many, if I remember the case right. Certainly not the majority, though. 14:09:20 probably facebook is just large enough that on average you will get a handful of morons. And handful will be rather large. 14:09:31 (large in absolute numbers I mean) 14:09:39 agreed 14:10:00 are there any public figures on how many users facebook have? 14:10:09 -!- Guest89141 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:10:14 Vorpal: millions and millions. 14:10:28 500 million ACTIVE users, it seems 14:10:29 as of july 14:10:33 hm 14:10:39 "which is about one person for every fourteen in the world" --Wikipedia 14:10:42 how do they count active? last 30 days? last 60? 14:10:47 doesn't say 14:10:51 hm okay 14:10:51 but whatever it is, it's impressive 14:10:55 indeed it is 14:10:58 "When hundreds of clueless commenters decided mid-February that ReadWriteWeb was the place to log in to Facebook, --" so several is at least hundreds. 14:11:00 (1) thanks for the division, Wikipedia; (2) no sorry that actually is a useful statistic I just had to make that joke 14:11:51 fizzie, lets see... 14:11:53 >>> (500 / 500000000.0)*100 14:11:53 9.9999999999999991e-05 14:11:58 not very many percent 14:12:17 that is assuming hundreds = 500 14:12:50 "To accomplish this, Zuckerberg hacked into the protected areas of Harvard's computer network and copied the houses' private dormitory ID images." 14:13:22 Facebook, dedicated to your privacy since day one. 14:13:26 ais523, um? 14:13:39 how the predecessor to Facebook got its info 14:13:41 Vorpal: Zuckerberg founded Facebook 14:13:43 hah 14:13:48 that site had to close down, and Facebook was founded in its place 14:13:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:14:02 I'm not surprised it had to close down 14:14:06 ais523: Kind of scary that Harvard's network is vulnerable like that... 14:14:15 Or, was. 14:14:16 well, was at the time 14:14:20 Vorpal: Though "hundreds" might just be the amount who actually said something. I mean, the case was that the article's commentary page had a "sign in with Facebook" thing, and people signed in, then wrote stuff to the "comments" box; presumably there are at least some who logged in and actually realized "hey, this is not facebook". 14:14:34 hm 14:14:41 -!- augur has joined. 14:14:57 fizzie, would "sign in with facebook" be openid or? 14:15:36 This was early 2010, I think Facebook's OpenID joining is a later thing? I don't really know how they do inter-a-graterion. 14:15:52 also python's floating point rounding for output sucks badly 14:16:05 Vorpal: it's Facebook Connect; vaguely like OpenID, except limited to Facebook 14:16:10 this is, ofc, a bad idea 14:16:12 but nobody seems to care 14:16:19 ais523, hm. Does facebook provide openid as well or? 14:16:22 no. 14:16:24 and it never will 14:16:29 hm 14:16:35 so why roll their own system 14:16:39 power. 14:16:40 could you make Facebook Connect into an OpenID provider? 14:16:46 more people sign up for facebook to use facebook connect. 14:16:47 or would that violate Facebook's rules? 14:16:50 more people think "facebook" more often 14:16:52 (it's probably technically possible) 14:16:57 more people think "yes -- i am using my facebook" when using it 14:16:58 greater mindshare 14:16:59 power 14:17:08 ais523: when Facebook Connect first came out, I decided I *really* hated Facebook for killing OpenID 14:17:20 you can probably make it into an openid provider 14:17:22 ais523, do you use any sort of openid btw? 14:17:23 alise: I hate Google Accounts just as much 14:17:25 but why would you want to? 14:17:32 ais523: google accounts are exposed as openIDs, at least 14:17:46 -!- jcp has joined. 14:17:49 ais523: which makes it more acceptable 14:18:08 (and you can't use google accounts on a non-App Engine site without using the OpenID solution, so that's promotion in a sense) 14:18:14 whereas facebook connect is an outright competitor to openid 14:18:29 alise: my issue is the reverse, there's sites that allow Google accounts to log in, but not OpenID 14:18:37 so you have to create a Google account to log in there 14:18:45 Twitter can be used as a Facebook Connect/OpenID -like thing, too; the ReadWriteWeb comment page currently lets you login via Facebook Connect, Twitter, or any OpenID provider. 14:18:47 ais523: well, only (1) Google sites (and this is not too surprising), and (2) sites on App Engine 14:19:01 (2) is unfortunate, but you can hardly expect Google not to provide an interface to their accounts API from one of their big services, 14:19:03 alise: (1) isn't too surprising, but still annoying 14:19:08 and (1) is understandable if imperfect 14:19:17 it's sure as hell a lot better than facebook 14:19:30 because if I log in to use Google Groups, I have to log out again and clear cookies to use Google search, if I want results that are relatively neutral 14:19:35 openid is nice in theory, but there are a number of issues with it 1) trusting the provider you use to not abuse it and run a secure system 2) trust them not to suddenly go bankrupt 14:19:41 rather than being attemptedly tailored to my interests 14:19:41 okay you could run your own openid server 14:19:44 but that is a lot of work 14:20:25 Vorpal: it is not a lot of work 14:20:29 you copy like two files and edit one file 14:20:36 there's no "server" 14:20:42 also, there are solutions to (1) and (2) 14:20:48 you can put headers on your personal web page 14:20:53 that point to an openid provider 14:20:56 then use your web page as an openid 14:20:59 swapping providers at will 14:21:12 encrypted local keyring is my preferred solution, of course if you often use public computers and such that wouldn't be very convenient, but in any case you need to trust those systems not to have keyloggers installed, so they are a bad solution in any case. 14:21:20 nobody cares 14:21:25 and you have to ensure backup and such of course 14:21:40 alise, hm 14:22:09 ais523: I actually wrote a thing to expose Google Accounts to non-App Engine websites in 2008. Apologies, but, in my defence, it was intended solely to implement an OpenID provider with, before Google offered OpenID. 14:22:20 fair enough 14:22:23 Facebook's a sponsoring member of the OpenID Foundation, anyway, so you see, they're helping in their way. 14:22:27 alise, I remember that 14:22:28 (gaccproxy.appspot.com; in my defence, that's a perfectly acceptable non-HTTP-exclusive domain name!) 14:22:29 as long as you didn't force people to use it, I don't mind 14:22:53 i posted it on reddit and argued with people who called it the END OF SECURITY and things like that but i don't think anyone actually used it 14:22:58 also, the example site is long-dead now 14:23:03 it ran on eso-std.org 14:23:16 (just to prove it works :P) 14:23:54 the code is a little ugly iirc 14:24:05 but contains enough random numbers and verification to be fun 14:24:08 ais523, don't those sites also allow creating an account and using username/password? 14:24:19 ais523, like the "conventional" solution to login 14:24:27 Vorpal: instead of FB Connect? 14:24:29 some of them 14:24:30 not all 14:24:46 alise, instead of fb connect/google accounts/openid 14:24:52 Facebook's a sponsoring member of the OpenID Foundation, anyway, so you see, they're helping in their way. 14:24:58 heh :) 14:25:12 I forget how ITV is structured, but the BBC at least used to partly own it 14:25:33 Vorpal: google accounts -- not really, sites that use it are on app engine, and what's the point if you have to write auth code too? 14:25:39 FB connect -- most but not all 14:25:54 openid -- most offer registration, but only because OpenID is sadly neglected 14:25:58 alise, remember that thing about gmail accounts getting hacked. China was involved iirc. Now, I'm sure the risk is extremely slim for that, but not even google is 100% secure, nothing is. 14:26:01 Jyte doesn't but then it's a Jan Rain site 14:26:22 Vorpal: did anyone actually connect that to China? 14:26:30 hmm, my Firefox was going crazy then 14:26:42 and indeed, nothing is really secure; you are far too paranoid because there are weak links far before you 14:26:46 it wasn't responding to any input, which often happens; /but/ if I resized the window, it redrew everything accordingly 14:26:54 such as your bank, say. 14:27:11 alise, the IPs were from there iirc, and the accounts belonged to people the regime didn't like. 14:27:22 so um, not connect for certain 14:27:26 but very likely 14:27:32 ais523: anyone remember when resizing Netscape used to redraw everything? 'cause I don't 14:28:09 alise: I remember that with pre-Firefox Mozilla 14:28:10 alise, I remember that 14:28:26 pretty sure navigator 3 did that too? 14:30:14 alise, and indeed the bank isn't completely secure... It certainly worries me. 14:30:39 Vorpal: you do realise that you're so boring, nobody would ever want to compromise your security? 14:31:31 alise, stop trolling, it's just pathetic :P 14:32:08 it's true 14:33:26 alise, still banks use security tokens and such. Reasonably secure. 14:35:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:39:44 alise: I rarely bother with really strong levels of security, except when I'm safeguarding information for someone else 14:39:56 in which case I expend effort to not be the weakest link in the chain 14:40:10 I still use the same password everywhere, which I *really* want to change. 14:40:16 But it's such a huge undertaking. 14:41:05 alise, a good keychain program + master password? then you can stop using it for new ones and also can change old ones as you run across them? 14:41:23 Vorpal: bingo 14:41:39 I just need to figure out how to get one that works on a mobile 14:41:42 ah 14:41:50 alise, iphone? 14:43:49 maybe. i've been meaning to replace it. 14:44:21 i have this wonderful plan for a website that can do it all seamlessly, on just about any device, including public computers, and yet, is still totally trustable 14:44:30 (i.e. you don't have to trust the website at all) 14:45:06 there's pretty much only one way I could be evil and I was planning to have a browser extension that automatically notifies you whenever the code changes and checks to see if reputable people have said it's fine before continuing 14:45:19 alise: does it just serve client-side JS, or something? 14:45:21 -!- cpressey_ has joined. 14:45:56 ais523: I don't particularly want to reveal the whole design in public, even though nobody else would bother building it, because it's the best "mainstream" idea I've had yet, even if I can't immediately think how to make money off it 14:45:57 For website passwords, I've been using a Maemo PasswordSafe port on the phone; that's not too bad, I guess. 14:46:02 ais523: but basically, all the sensitive stuff is done entirely client-side 14:46:07 and the server doesn't store anything I can read 14:46:12 there's more subtlety to it than that 14:46:16 hmm, sounds good 14:46:31 -!- mzstorkipiwanbot has joined. 14:46:40 the way to make money off it is to get lots of users, and then sell it before the buyer notices you don't have a business model 14:46:49 then they add ads and it collapses, but you still have the money 14:47:09 alise, nice idea but limited to high end phones really. 14:47:35 Vorpal: well, it would work on any semi-modern phone 14:47:39 low-end phones can't log into websites at all 14:47:40 probably even blackberries 14:47:42 alise, opera mini? 14:47:46 Vorpal: no 14:47:48 but i don't use opera mini 14:47:54 also, it was mainly for browser usage, it just happened to work on phones too 14:48:02 Vorpal: besides, creating a java version or whatever wouldn't be too hard 14:48:05 indeed, I was just disputing the claim about "just about any device" 14:48:12 alise, there are lots of lower end/older phones 14:48:12 i meant, cybercafes too 14:48:17 wow, Facebook just added/are in the process of adding an option to export data 14:48:19 yes, but cool people don't own them. 14:48:25 or rather, cool people don't internet from them :P 14:48:40 that's... rather out-of-character for them 14:48:58 alise, indeed, I wouldn't log in on anything with it. Only internet stuff I do on it is read news and check bus schedule 14:49:18 and news only when waiting for bus or such 14:49:40 I think the only times I'm bored is when I'm waiting for the bus... 14:49:51 ais523: what progress! 14:49:55 access to your own data 14:49:56 astonishing 14:50:07 I just don't see the motive here 14:50:13 trying to dodge antitrust concerns, maybe? 14:50:17 the story on that confused me 14:50:17 trying to actually become less evil? 14:50:22 maybe they've found love. 14:50:31 <3 14:50:37 alise, 14:50:37 they claim it is all secure and protected after you download it 14:50:38 :P 14:50:45 alise: The official motivation: "It's our core belief that people should own and be able to conrol their information in Facebook," said CEO Mark Zuckerberg. "We view this as a philosophical thing." 14:50:57 See, it's philosophical. 14:50:57 i am all about conrol 14:51:04 alise, we need to find a way to write a liver now. A bit tricky hm 14:51:09 fizzie: i really need a good onomatopoeium for "snrk" 14:51:22 the sort of half-nose, half-above-mouth outwards sharp release of breath 14:51:26 when smiling 14:52:30 mzstorkipiwanbot: lambdabot is gone. you know this means i'm gonna have to teach you to be our messenger service. 14:52:30 cpressey_: I disagree! 14:52:43 You have a very disagreaable bot there. 14:53:05 fungot: Quick, learn to do memo-passing so that these new upstarts don't steal your place as the channel's most important person! 14:53:05 fizzie: you could also use " define" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ display/ fnord 14:53:06 it's quite the contrarian little bastard, yes 14:53:15 sup 14:53:24 nooo, lambdabot went 14:53:25 Lemmih :( 14:53:46 mzstorkipiwanbot: fort 14:53:46 alise: I disagree! 14:53:47 alise: it's "snark" 14:53:57 who is mzstorkipiwanbot? 14:54:00 a snark, to snark 14:54:04 mzstorkipiwanbot: hi 14:54:05 cheater: no way 14:54:05 cheater: I disagree! 14:54:06 there's no a in it 14:54:08 it sounds like snrk 14:54:11 ais523: a bot 14:54:14 mzstorkipiwanbot: x 14:54:14 alise: I disagree! 14:54:14 mzstorkipiwanbot: x 14:54:14 alise: I disagree! 14:54:14 mzstorkipiwanbot: x 14:54:14 alise: I disagree! 14:54:23 alise: I know 14:54:24 alise: it's a silent a. 14:54:29 cheater: can I hire you as an AI consultant? :| 14:54:30 is its only purpose to disagree with things? 14:54:33 ais523: apparently 14:54:34 that seems kind-of pointless 14:54:36 alise: wat do i get 14:54:41 mzstorkipiwanbot, do you agree that you disagree with everything? 14:54:49 mzstorkipiwanbot: do you agree that you disagree with everything? 14:54:49 Vorpal: I disagree! 14:54:55 ... 14:54:58 cheater: happiness; the latest release of vagrant before maybe three other people 14:55:03 who owns that bot? 14:55:06 cpressey_ 14:55:07 checked IPs 14:55:08 ah 14:55:25 cpressey_, you might want to add , to the list of things that goes after the nick 14:55:51 or just make it reply to it whenever its name is mentioned >:) 14:56:11 alise, could get annoying, What if it happened when talking about something else? ;) 14:56:13 alise: tempting 14:56:25 python really needs goto 14:56:43 python has goto 14:56:53 it does? 14:56:59 def f0001(): blah blah; f0002() 14:57:07 then it needs gotoplus 14:57:09 def f0002(): blah blaaa; f0003() 14:57:12 you mean a call? 14:57:25 cheater: that doesn't let me break out of a while loop 14:57:30 Vorpal: Yeah, at the very least it should reply only if it sees its nick with word boundaries around; otherwise all the words that just happen to contain mzstorkipiwanbot as a substring would get replies. 14:57:31 also it makes me write global 14:57:31 and stuff 14:57:34 de f0003(): if(blargh): f0001() 14:57:41 shaddap 14:57:45 *if blargh: 14:57:45 *def 14:57:47 cheater, but python doesn't optimise tail calls iirc? 14:57:57 Vorpal: you could write a trampoline 14:57:58 still, not the same 14:57:59 fizzie, indeed! 14:57:59 alise: mine has less spaces. 14:58:03 Vorpal: no, it doesn't 14:58:04 cheater: yours has more bytse 14:58:10 Vorpal: Python also has a recursion depth limit of 1000 by default. 14:58:12 alise: my bytse are fine. 14:58:36 fizzie: oh cool, didn't know that 14:58:39 fizzie, indeed 14:58:48 *bytes 14:58:50 fizzie: what about nesting depth? 14:58:51 so cheater's solution doesn't work 14:58:55 Vorpal: does too. 14:59:02 Vorpal: for some time. 14:59:23 cheater, aka: doesn't work 14:59:30 Vorpal: it's not like we have a working model of a turing machine, so this conversation is moot 14:59:32 The recursion limit is runtime-configurable, though: http://docs.python.org/library/sys.html#sys.setrecursionlimit -- there's a hard limit somewhere, of course. 14:59:45 cheater, how so? 15:00:06 Vorpal: because why would you talk about recursion limits outside of the interesting case of turing machines? 15:00:19 alise, as for breaking out of loops, doesn't python have break [n] ? 15:00:28 it does, so? 15:00:35 it doesn't have break [n] 15:00:37 it has break 15:00:40 but you can't do that inside a function, duh 15:00:42 while x: f() 15:00:45 f() can't break out 15:00:45 ah indeed 15:00:48 you could raise an exception... 15:00:49 ! 15:00:53 :D 15:00:55 exactly 15:00:56 nice 15:00:57 because mine sucks up the exception errors 15:00:59 >:) 15:01:00 but 15:01:01 i was just going to say that 15:01:03 it's longer than my current code 15:01:03 so meh 15:01:12 a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu') 15:01:13 X+=17 ^ these two lines are totally my favourites 15:01:33 cheater, well, imagine a main loop of an httpd coded in python implementing in terms of your solution 15:01:38 so, doesn't really work 15:01:52 and you will always have to return up the chain in the end 15:02:00 Vorpal: i don't care for http 15:02:02 unless you exit the program 15:02:03 it's a failed standard 15:02:05 deep below 15:02:12 cheater, same goes for any sort of server though 15:02:16 httpd was just an example 15:02:29 * Vorpal waits for cheater to claim the concept of "server" is failed too 15:03:13 talking to vorpal is a failed concept 15:04:22 cheater, how so? 15:06:35 alise, btw read the annotation on iwc today 15:07:49 claiming that http has failed is quite a bold statement... 15:08:01 did I misinterpret you? 15:09:23 ais523, long live gopher. Err.... Anyone here a high level cleric? 15:09:33 * cpressey_ raises hand 15:09:36 XD 15:10:20 cheater: so do you want to do AI or not? :P 15:12:38 alise: i don't know 15:12:41 ais523: if its goal was to free the elephants, it has indeed failed 15:12:49 cheater: But those poor Qs. 15:13:03 cpressey_: good thing it found a second job in serving Web pages, then 15:13:07 it's amazing what you can repurpose some things to 15:13:15 alise: will you keep throwing my code away? 15:13:25 cheater: only if it's really terrible 15:13:31 Incidentally, in the "new packages" list for my phone there's the Gophernicus Gopher server. I don't really know why someone bothered to package *that*. 15:13:32 or if I think of something even better 15:13:37 alise: there was nothing terrible! 15:13:44 i am stating my future policy :P 15:13:50 ok 15:13:57 alise: Apache license! 15:14:02 fizzie, heh 15:14:13 Vorpal: The package homepage URL is a gopher:// thing. :p 15:14:17 let's do it, sunshine 15:14:32 undesired implications 15:14:39 fizzie, well I'm not surprised 15:14:57 not sure what "sunshine" implies 15:15:06 if r(0,14):Q('Yum! That was delicious.');L+=int(0==r(0,2)and r(5,10)) 15:15:08 why do I have int() there 15:15:39 hey i can quaff indefinitely 15:15:40 aewsome! 15:15:43 *awesome 15:15:44 cheater, I think alise is better described by "messoscale thunderstorm in snow blizzard" 15:15:57 rather than "sunshine" 15:15:59 IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE VORPAL DOESN'T LIKE ME 15:16:00 alise: you can remove int() 15:16:04 indeed i can 15:16:28 alise: i told you talking to Vorpal is a failed concept 15:16:42 s/is/was 15:16:47 "is" is "was" golfed. 15:17:25 hm, golfing English, that might be fun 15:17:31 I wonder how well it would work though 15:19:52 cheater: just getting this version a bit more polished 15:20:11 alise: pls no heritage slurs 15:20:13 four-long talk 15:20:20 cheater: what 15:20:45 a snow blizzard. as opposed to a cake blizzard. 15:21:01 * cheater wonders what it would mean to "english" a code. 15:21:22 put spin on it so it bounces off funny? 15:21:23 * alise adds a NEW FEATURE 15:21:39 alise: what feature would that be? 15:21:44 if k=='\n':D();continue 15:21:46 dismiss messages 15:21:48 without costing a turn 15:22:02 alise: you totally should set up bzr for this thing 15:22:08 i hate bzr. 15:22:13 that's why you should use it 15:22:17 no. 15:22:19 so as not to hate it afterwards 15:22:26 i know i hate it for a fact. 15:22:35 anyway it's too small to version-control really. that would destroy the purity and fun. 15:22:51 alise, visual sourcesafe! 15:23:09 wow, dying is broken 15:23:13 you just get informed that you die, every turn 15:23:24 and continue on with zero satiation and zero hp 15:23:33 if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D() 15:23:36 ah. that may be the issue 15:23:41 fixed :P 15:24:28 alise: well we need to be able to work on it concurrently 15:24:39 alise: what about a screen with vim 15:24:42 pastebin and clog are your VCS for this thing 15:24:48 not really, i'm find merging in your changes when i tweak stuff 15:24:52 *fine 15:24:53 alise: give me axs 2 ur shell acnt 15:25:08 i trust exactly one person in the world with my shell and it's probably ais523 15:25:24 that's ok, ais523 trusts me 15:25:28 heh, I like the idea that you know how many people you trust, but aren't sure who they are 15:25:40 and no, I don't trust you, not to the extent of giving you access to someone else's trust indirectly 15:25:59 said ais523, in fact trusting me. 15:26:09 err, what? 15:26:13 cheater: http://pastie.org/1205374.txt?key=rxu2wgg3efutkk6cfdpryw 15:26:19 i've denoted where the AI needs to go 15:26:24 you can drop the ,w; from the global list 15:26:25 if you don't assign to w 15:28:28 let's add G's 15:28:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:29:18 cheater: :| 15:29:22 get Qs working first :P 15:29:44 Qs will work too 15:29:56 cheater: this is why i didn't use your code :P 15:32:03 :( 15:33:33 cpressey_: please go away and drop the _ and come back so that you'll be your normal color again! alise and ais523 are already orange! 15:33:45 (yay pathological cases of hashing nicks to colors...) 15:34:04 hashing IPs, or cloaks, would be more useful, relaly 15:34:05 *really 15:34:22 exactly 15:34:57 but being able to manually swap people's colors would be most useful. this script doesn't do that and i'm too lazy to add that feature... 15:35:45 alise: what about adding shooting rays? 15:35:46 :D 15:35:54 cheater: :| 15:36:00 :D 15:36:08 ok 15:36:11 what about puddings? 15:36:18 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:36:36 :| 15:36:38 (i can't really work on the code until tomorrow) 15:36:41 http://pastie.org/private/gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g your code here doesn't work btw 15:36:49 alise: what about replacing # walls with "|" and "-" walls, so that it's easy to string them together on the fly! 15:36:51 you get floats out of the contraption...somehow 15:36:58 thanks chris! 15:37:18 alise: yes, integer floats 15:37:25 KeyError: (11.0, -10.0) 15:37:40 well then int it 15:38:21 i prefer A+W root beer floats myself 15:38:57 someone invent a lang with that as a type 15:39:07 i would cast everything to it 15:39:18 cheater: well either i patched it wrongly or your code is messed up :D 15:39:27 worked for me 15:39:38 :) 15:39:40 btw your use of s is unwise 15:39:41 s is the screen 15:40:05 so? 15:40:08 s isn't being used there 15:40:15 so i use s for something else 15:40:21 are you getting confused by this? 15:40:30 alise: does cheater have a copy of the latest optimized code? 15:40:41 yes, but he can't work on it 15:40:49 cheater: no, but it also didn't work the last time I tried it 15:40:49 iirc 15:40:57 python scoping is fucked 15:41:08 ok, so T gets called for every X, Y? 15:41:23 T just advances the turn 15:41:26 quaffing does it too 15:41:32 http://pastie.org/1201977.txt?key=gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g ;; i swear this doesn't work 15:41:33 why would i put ai code in T? 15:41:40 start it, space, Qs break lightspeed crazily 15:41:42 space, it crashes 15:41:51 cheater: read the rest of the code and you'll see why 15:41:52 all logic goes into T 15:41:57 everything that happens once a turn 15:42:07 *such as other characters like AIs moving* 15:42:27 so monsters can only move when i move? 15:42:36 this is getting more and more drod-like... 15:42:40 or do something else that takes a turn 15:42:41 like quaffing 15:42:44 quintopia: no, nethack-like 15:42:46 ais523: back me up here 15:42:53 monsters in nethack only move when you take a turn, yes? 15:42:59 quintopia: turn-based; your character thinks quickly, but the player might not 15:43:07 monsters in nethack are lame 15:43:11 Well, #esoteric isn't on lambdabot's join list 15:43:11 so the game pauses when you're not acting to give the player time to think 15:43:13 players should think quicker 15:43:18 Sgeo: it was manually joined 15:43:31 quintopia: also Crawl, Angband 15:43:31 Rogue 15:43:34 Hack 15:43:56 are there any realtime roguelikes? 15:43:57 alise: just saying, T doesn't seem like the right placer 15:44:01 i would use D() 15:44:02 i'm sure they had very good technical limitations in their original implementations that made realtime monsters unwise 15:44:04 cheater: err, no 15:44:07 D() is called on, e.g. enter 15:44:08 we have come out of the dark ages now! 15:44:10 which just dismisses a message 15:44:12 without advancing the turn 15:44:13 (I was about to say "don't say trankesbel", but that isn't this channel) 15:44:16 so of *course* it should not be in D() 15:44:24 quintopia: seriously? 15:44:26 it's called a roguelike 15:44:42 and you apparently don't have the imagination to appreciate it 15:44:54 ais523: why not; is it vapourware? i googled 15:44:58 i have the imagination to appreciate a rogueimprovment more than a roguelike 15:45:02 alise: it's the PSOX of another channel 15:45:06 fortunately, I've forgotten which 15:45:14 oh multiplayer 15:45:27 quintopia: dude... 15:45:30 have you ever played nethack? 15:45:34 every game after rogue is an improvement 15:45:41 hahaha 15:45:42 making monsters realtime makes the game suck 15:45:55 it might make yours better 15:45:55 removing all thinking, skill and planning 15:46:02 and just turning it into a third-person shooter with bad graphics 15:46:09 meh, some players specialise in thinking really quickly 15:46:13 since there's not much in the way of puzzles in your game... 15:46:18 but I've spent several minutes planning a move before 15:46:21 quintopia: Sokoban? 15:46:34 sokoban is cool 15:46:36 i guess 15:46:41 ais523: from the trankesbel guy: [[My best achievement is ascending 29 times in a row (that is, not dying between ascensions).]] 15:46:50 alise: I know him on IRC quite well 15:46:58 that's as far as anyone knows the current world record for that 15:46:59 but what makes it cool is that it has actual maps that a programmer thought about carefully! 15:47:08 the same person /also/ holds the world record for winning NetHack in realtime 15:47:10 "Other stuff include ascending in 1 hours 42 minutes (2009 /dev/null)" fffwhat 15:47:11 at under 2 hours 15:47:22 http://genodeen.net/a_wins.png ;; what did /dev/null ever do to him 15:47:25 I'm adding commentary to the recording of that run, pretty slowly 15:47:44 "Krokotiilinhammaskeittokirja (Damage calculation tool)" 15:47:48 what a hilariously terrible name 15:48:05 oh he admins pinobot? 15:48:09 yep 15:48:14 how did you find out about pinobot? 15:48:39 ais523: err, you told me to use it when playing nethack 15:48:45 ah, aha 15:48:50 hardly anyone knows about it, you see 15:48:52 is it not well-known or something? 15:48:52 ah 15:48:55 agh i have to go back to grading 15:49:01 Krokotiilinhammaskeittokirja is Finnish for (approximately) "crocodile tooth cookbook", in case that wasn't explained there. 15:49:11 fizzie: it wasn't 15:49:21 http://genodeen.net/index.clua?df_stuff ;; Hey, a way to play Dwarf Fortress in Linux nicely. 15:49:44 so I was surprised that you did 15:49:45 so I was surprised that you did 15:49:46 */ping ais523 15:50:15 alise: consider what i said about walls! (i even know a way you could dynamically generate rooms without actually having to spend lines and lines of code setting them up) 15:50:32 quintopia: do tell? 15:50:38 so I was surprised that you did 15:50:39 so I was surprised that you did 15:50:39 */ping ais523 15:50:50 alise: I was having connection trouble 15:50:53 so I was pinging myself 15:51:02 then I tried again, so I typed the key sequence to repeat a linea 15:51:03 *line 15:51:08 and accidentally repeated the wrong line 15:51:16 see, it's not that implausible a correction when you know the background 15:51:32 (it's just that me pinging myself isn't sent to the channel) 15:52:37 U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1) 15:52:39 not an if in sight 15:53:07 alise: did you figure out that k bug? 15:53:12 *j bug? 15:53:19 ais523: which j bug? 15:53:24 i almost remember what you're saying 15:53:37 the one where you hold down j and the turncount goes negative 15:53:57 ah 15:54:03 not negative 15:54:04 just backwards 15:54:13 fixed by refreshing the screen each turn and getting all cargo cult about that 15:55:21 woo, actually i can make that one line shorter 15:55:29 well, did you figure it out? 15:55:31 ah 15:56:21 not one line 15:56:22 one statement 15:58:09 the dark ages of turn based strategy... ye-e-e-es 15:58:41 we need some non-turn-based interactive fiction, too 15:58:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:58:53 haha 16:00:03 the number of times i have died at zangband by moving without considering my position well enough, i cannot count 16:00:42 I wonder whether quaffing when you have no potions should take a turn. 16:00:43 ...Nah. 16:02:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:03:01 "the PSOX of another channel" 16:03:59 cpressey: are you admiring my analogy? 16:04:07 ais523: yes 16:04:15 kind of swimming in its depth 16:05:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:06:20 Is clog working? 16:06:45 it was having trouble recently 16:06:50 but it started working again 16:06:53 has it stopped working again? 16:07:08 It seems to be working 16:07:15 it logged "Is clog working?" 16:07:43 I wasn't sure whether or not to bother checking logs 16:19:44 heh, my hallu is flawed 16:19:49 you can redraw as much as you want 16:19:56 which lets you determine where everything is, to high accuracy 16:20:01 because redrawing causes re-hallucination 16:20:16 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined. 16:20:53 -!- lament has joined. 16:23:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:28:41 "Oh, and not long after making these photos, I was stopped and interviewed by a police officer, who searched my camera bag, on grounds of suspicious activity, potentially related to terrorism. I have a carbon copy of the police report sheet to prove it." --DMM on London 16:28:47 why am I not surprised? 16:29:43 I'm not really, either 16:30:02 ais523: the photo was of the *tower of london* 16:30:08 apparently, taking photos of it is suspicious 16:30:17 you might want to help a friend escape from there, treasoner! 16:30:20 I know I was once moved by an armed police officer 16:30:31 you "know" it? not "remember" it? 16:30:35 because I was accidentally standing in the way of an official car that wanted to drive into Buckingham Palace 16:30:48 :D 16:30:49 alise: well, it seems like a really absurd thing to plant a false memory of 16:30:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:31:12 ais523: I would have just omitted the "I know" 16:31:52 alise: I know *I* was once... 16:32:01 perfectly normal rhetorical device imo 16:32:03 ahh 16:32:06 fair enough 16:32:13 i think i initially interpreted it as that 16:32:19 but discarded it as meaningless before finishing for some reason 16:32:33 I think it expands to something like "well I only know that info about DMM second-hand, but here's a first-hand story..." 16:32:50 also, you are debugging hallucination code, so it's understandable 16:33:25 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:35:00 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 16:37:05 not debugging it 16:37:09 i don't mind it being broken 16:37:10 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:37:31 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined. 16:39:52 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:40:33 -!- nooga has joined. 16:40:37 fho 16:45:29 bk 16:46:10 kb 16:47:36 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:52 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined. 16:48:32 ais523: what's PSOX? 16:48:49 uh-oh... 16:48:52 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Client Quit). 16:48:56 Sgeo: care to explain? 16:49:16 What it is, or why it's memefied? 16:49:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:50:39 I think cheater was asking the first 16:50:52 see, you can subvert the meme this time by taking it back to its roots 16:51:43 OK 16:51:46 what's psox? 16:52:13 PSOX is something that sits between a program, typically written in an stdio-only esolang, and stdio 16:52:32 It intercepts output, and treats it as commands to do things like open files or open sockets 16:52:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:52:43 And feeds the results back into the program's input 16:52:53 why is it a meme? 16:53:22 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:54:13 Overzealous promotion, vaporware for a time, and despite having language-independence as a goal, it made many assumptions that inconvenience languages other than Brainfuck 16:54:50 I rejected one of the spiritual ancestors of PSOX precisely because it assumed the concept of cells 16:55:10 (And some semantic issues.. or was that something else?) 16:57:44 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 16:58:01 vapourware always :) 16:58:05 well at least for the stuff yuo said itw ould be able to do 16:58:07 *you *would 16:58:23 you know what would be a good model for a PSOX-alike? telnet! 16:58:36 -!- rodgort has joined. 17:00:04 ais523: hell no :P 17:00:31 -!- tombom has joined. 17:02:30 ++ 17:02:36 -- 17:02:40 There, all better. 17:03:09 So wait, what did Sgeo assert PSOX would be able to do? 17:03:31 i thought psox was phantasy star online xbox 17:04:07 alise, just because I never got around to the file stuff before abandoning it? 17:04:17 or network iirc 17:04:20 And did I ever actually PROMISE a GUI domain? 17:04:21 although i may be wrong there 17:04:23 The network stuff works 17:04:54 pikhq wrote a wget.b 17:04:57 iirc 17:05:20 i recall that 17:07:00 * Sgeo goes to watch some SG-1 17:08:01 Wow, for some larger operators, it is estimated that the Carrier Grade NAT logs one would have to keep would take about 2EB of space... That's A LOT. 17:08:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 17:09:21 and yet people still don't get the message about IPv6 17:09:30 06:48:37 There's the Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI, who believe the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, and who fear the Coming of the Great White Handkerchief. 17:09:31 EB aren't out of range for modern technology, though, IIRC 17:09:35 Please, tell me you typed that from memory. 17:09:56 Ilari: carrier grade logs -- you mean legally mandated stuff? 17:10:02 i'm not so hot with networking 17:10:19 alise: I mean "Carrier Grade NAT". 17:10:40 alise: And yes, legally mandated logs. Currently one can get by with much smaller logs. 17:10:41 ah 17:10:51 Ilari: obviously we will just legislate away the logs 17:10:55 after Verizon and Comcast complain 17:11:00 we = everyone :) 17:12:18 Worse yet, even those logs will not be as useful for handling abuse as what currently exist. 17:12:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:13:19 Since time skew would seriously hamper process. Yes, there's NTP, but still a lot of clocks are wrong. 17:14:46 -!- pineal_aenimal has joined. 17:15:09 ello anyone 17:16:36 -!- pineal_aenimal has left (?). 17:17:46 15:06:43 * ais523 continues to wonder wtf expect programs (written in TCL) run, given that TCL isn't installed 17:17:51 ais523: expect actually has tcl compiled in 17:17:59 that was explained some other time 17:18:03 it's, like, an alternative main.c or something iirc 17:18:06 but wow, I made that statement ages ago 17:18:10 ais523: shut up i can logread as far back as I want :D 17:18:13 (only 27th August) 17:21:19 * alise examines in album's waveforms in Audacity 17:21:23 wow, atrocious clipping 17:21:24 *an 17:21:31 they should remaster it properly sometime 17:23:37 anyway, new esolang suggestion: 2D with two commands (NOP /not/ allowed, you have to use one or the other command everywhere up to the edge of the program): G rotates the IP left unless the current tape element is 0, X going left/right/up/down respectively is equivalent to BF < > + - respectively, tape is bignum, signed, and is initialised to start with 1 everywhere, IP starts going downwards at the top-left of the program 17:23:57 I'm trying to work out if it's TC; with NOPs, it's relatively clearly possible to compile BF-minus-IO into it 17:24:22 by separating the tape into a series of "always positive / junk / data / always positive / junk / data", etc 17:24:28 don't have an interp yet 17:24:48 and it's not quite clear how the lack of NOPs affects it, but I think (am unsure) it's still TC anyway 17:30:55 cool 17:32:28 !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>([+++++[-]>]>)*20>)*20[[[-]-]-] 17:33:50 Score for ais523_tripwire2: 0.0 17:34:01 hmm, that's suspiciously low 17:34:47 two draws, though, so it's not like it's an autolose program 17:36:28 -!- augur has joined. 17:38:22 My head is now filled with self-replicating machines. 17:38:29 Figuratively, of course. 17:38:48 Although I suppose it probably is in a literal sense, as well. 17:39:50 if one can consider meat a machine... 17:40:23 things that are really neat: neuroplasticity et al. 17:41:21 Phantom_Hoover: it was ALWAYS literally so. 17:41:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:41:58 -!- augur has joined. 17:41:59 Well, the neurons themselves aren't self-replicating any more AFAIU. 17:42:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:42:05 !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-] 17:42:15 was a missing bracket, I'm amazed it actually got anywhere at all 17:42:17 Score for ais523_tripwire2: 21.5 17:42:23 -!- augur has joined. 17:42:23 yay, that's better 17:42:42 looks like I just knocked GreaseMonkey off the leaderboard altogether 17:44:06 ha 17:44:08 nostalgia! 17:44:42 i wouldn't say the human brain can self-replicate 17:44:44 just the body as a whole 17:44:46 with the brain as the cpu 17:44:52 neurons can't actually replicate 17:44:58 stem cells can replicate, and transform themselves into neurons 17:45:06 but the neurons themselves are no longer capable of replication 17:52:14 "SHOO!" "You could ask me to leave more politely." "I could. I choose not to." 17:53:57 alise, I was referring to the various bacteria and such in my sinuses and throat. 17:54:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:54:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood). 17:54:48 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:55:36 !bfjoust 17:55:36 Use: !bfjoust 17:55:42 !userinterps 17:55:44 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 17:56:10 !ehird 17:57:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:58:12 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:00:06 ais523: Still, defend7 is doing a hell of a lot better than tripwire2, so :P 18:00:35 Gregor: heh, defend7 IIRC actually has some anti-tripwire code 18:00:44 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded 18:00:51 if it didn't, tripwire2 would beat it any day 18:00:55 Yes, that's right, there are so many monsters that my message-printing function crashed. 18:00:57 How do I see the score tables for BFjoust/ 18:01:05 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 18:02:12 I forget the convoluted but semi-logical algorithm by which I calculated scores :P 18:02:45 I guess it's in report.c if I wanted to remember ... 18:03:37 I think you even documented it 18:03:48 yep, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES 18:04:32 if w.get(v)==81: 18:04:32 w[v]=82;Q(w[v]) 18:04:38 *Somehow* this prompts "81" all the time. 18:04:42 I DON'T GET IT 18:04:59 oh wait 18:05:01 forgot to save :D 18:05:26 ohh 18:05:27 i forgot an elif 18:06:19 hmm, I wonder what evolutionary BF Joust would be like 18:10:28 i need a lab 18:11:05 Buy a labcoat. 18:11:10 Then a LAB will come to YOU! 18:11:27 -!- Harpyon has joined. 18:11:53 hmm, no, defend7 doesn't have counter-tripwire code 18:11:58 so why is tripwire2 losing to it? 18:12:27 Because it's more defensive than tripwire is trip-wiry? 18:12:45 :P 18:13:01 the whole point of tripwiring (one of the few tactics that worked in BF Joust 1) is to ignore the first of your opponent's decoys (or more, but that's really risky) 18:13:07 oh, I see 18:13:09 !bfjoust 18:13:09 Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 18:13:25 defend7 does place one extra decoy, so it does defeat the tripwire 18:13:38 !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-] 18:13:48 Score for ais523_tripwire2: 27.6 18:13:52 let's try a double-tripwire; this did insanely badly last time I tried, but it may work better in today's metagame 18:13:57 yep, it did 18:14:23 (and now beats defend7) 18:14:23 "metagame" :P 18:14:38 !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-] 18:14:47 Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8 18:14:58 hmm, I wonder how many tripwires I can get away with? 18:15:06 !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-] 18:15:18 Score for ais523_tripwire2: 29.8 18:15:23 looks like three is the optimal number 18:15:26 !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-] 18:15:33 Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8 18:15:37 I was just about to say "I'm gonna go with three" :P 18:15:44 But that's just the optimal number for this hill. 18:15:47 -!- nooga has joined. 18:15:53 indeed 18:16:17 hmm, tripwire actually has a positive overall rating 18:16:22 it's pretty rare to get one of those onto the hill that quickly 18:16:31 yay, my hallu now has a cure 18:16:34 (potions help alleviate it) 18:16:53 8 losses, one to defend7 (where a tripwire trips over the defenses altogether and lands on the other side of the flag) 18:17:33 I think it's actually possible to survive hunger if you get like 100 potions. 18:17:51 (being hungry deducts 25 HP per turn) 18:17:56 and potions give 20 18:18:12 hungry=no satiation, that is 18:18:23 so if you have enough HP, and enough potions to last you until you get to the nearby food... 18:18:38 is there a maxhp? 18:18:47 300 18:19:01 i may make money useful, say, 18:19:06 higher max hp the more money you have 18:19:20 -!- augur has changed nick to cheesey_. 18:19:21 CAPITALIST PIG 18:19:24 ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py 18:19:24 1536 vagrant.py 18:19:27 pretty good, I think 18:19:28 -!- cheesey_ has changed nick to augur. 18:19:46 19.2 "standard" (80 col) lines 18:19:54 replacing newline with something else, that is 18:20:05 just need to make monsters work now :P 18:22:12 !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-] 18:22:21 Score for ais523_tripwire2: 17.3 18:22:26 !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-] 18:22:31 OK, it seems you /do/ need decoys 18:22:34 Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8 18:26:40 vagrant? 18:28:20 -!- augur_ has joined. 18:28:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:30:06 i'm looking for an idea for a complicated programs in C++ and C# 18:30:20 WebKit 18:30:35 That's in ObjC, surely? 18:30:45 C++, it's from KHTML remember. 18:30:59 * alise wonders how he lost 5 HP 18:31:13 alise: Not enough entrepreneurship. 18:31:20 nooga: vagrant is my lovely little golfed roguelike 18:31:56 alise: Is there an actual roguelike golf out there, or are you just making it 'cuz you can? 18:31:59 1635 bytes of Python -- well, 1634, the newline at the end is irrelevant -- and, although it doesn't have monsters that actually fight you yet, it's surprisingly feature...ful 18:32:04 If the latter, I have a GC in <700 lines of C :P 18:32:24 Gregor: The latter. Well, there was a 1k roguelike competition a while ago on that usenet group, but it only got like three submissions and half were in C# and Java and shit. 18:32:31 (Yes, half of three!) 18:32:36 Besides, I've broken the 1k barrier already. 18:32:46 By doing things like this: 18:32:51 w.update(q);U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1) 18:32:52 w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17 a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu') 18:32:55 if P and L+20<301:q=min(P,20);L+=q;U+=q*3*(U>0);P-=q;T() 18:32:57 So, one was in both C# and Java, another was in C, and one was in Java with JNI using C stuff? 18:33:07 q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q) 18:33:08 s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s S:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,S,L,P));global V;V();V=lambda:1;s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40) 18:33:37 Gregor: My messaging system is awesome. Guess how it works. Actually it doesn't really work but there you go. 18:34:21 Actually it does. 18:36:15 -!- Gregor has set topic: The international hub for esoterica, the occult, astrology, esoteric topics in computing and programming languages, astral projection, necromancy and scientology | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:36:37 Gregor: don't 18:36:44 -!- ais523 has set topic: < pikhq> Microsoft Word: the worst program to design web pages in, and this *includes* Malbolge. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:36:50 ais523: BUT THOU MUST 18:38:03 OK, can anyone explain this? leaning on my touchpad in a certain way causes all the pixels in the client area of my IRC client (but not the window border or tabs, etc, so it's clearly software-involved somehow) 18:38:11 Gregor: don't 18:38:12 why not? 18:38:17 it's funnier that way 18:38:22 -!- Gregor has set topic: Totally NOT the international hub for esoterica, the occult, astrology, astral projection, necromancy and scientology | But actually IS the international hub for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:38:44 but it doesn't correspond to left/right/middle-clicking, or any sort of mouse movement AFAICT 18:38:47 so what input's being sent? 18:38:55 "leaning on my touchpad in a certain way causes all the pixels in the client area of my IRC client (but not the window border or tabs, etc, so it's clearly software-involved somehow)" 18:38:58 causes all of them WHAT? 18:39:05 so i think my bot should be an esolang interpreter HEAR ME OUT 18:39:05 ais523: It just causes them. 18:39:07 to move to the left 18:39:09 "It just causes all of them!" 18:39:10 Gregor: ha, snap 18:39:15 They wouldn't exist if not for leaning on the --- damn :P 18:39:18 except you mispinged me :P 18:39:26 I knew I'd missed something from the sentence, just wasn't sure what 18:39:31 a language that just happens to overlap the irc protocol and thus work as a bot 18:39:39 alise: I was actually writing that before you wrote your thing, so I was telling him that :P 18:39:54 (anyway, the main reason is that by attempting to define esoterica, there's bound to be someone who stumbles in here by mistake, disagrees with our definition, and flames us all for the rest of our lives 18:39:55 ) 18:40:05 cpressey: Mah brain axplote. 18:40:28 i thought it was in response to causes all of them WHAT? 18:40:32 or did you write it before that too? 18:40:45 alise: I wrote it before that, that's what I'm saying. 18:40:55 -!- ais523 has set topic: peanut butter, the teachings of Henry XVI of Lithuania, rooftop supports, neutrinos | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:40:58 there, that's better 18:41:35 lithuanians sure do have funny surnames 18:41:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: George Carver did not invent peanut butter | Not that we're racist or anything | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:41:39 Gregor: right 18:42:09 -!- alise has set topic: Peanut butter | The teachings of Henry XVI of Lithuania | Rooftop supports | Burma Shave | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:42:34 TOPIC FIGHT 18:43:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: This channel is not about whatever you think it's about | Unless that's Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving creme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:43:28 COMPROMISE! :P 18:43:42 OK, I like it 18:43:45 do you really mean creme there? 18:43:57 No, but I'm keeping it. 18:44:32 surely it should be crème? 18:44:37 YES 18:44:42 -!- trdrkia has joined. 18:44:50 wow, cool, i thought nobody was as crazy as me to try it 18:44:55 hi 18:45:01 im from lithuania and i made some shaving cream with peantu butter... 18:45:02 -!- Gregor has set topic: This channel is not about whatever you think it's about | Unless that's Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving crème | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:45:07 **peanut sorry my english isn't so good :)) 18:45:19 so what are you guys'' experiences ? 18:45:22 alise: your IP gives you away 18:45:32 -!- Gregor has left (?). 18:45:32 still, great performance art 18:45:33 ais523: NO MY WHOLE COUNTRY IS ON A NIC 18:45:41 -!- Gregor has joined. 18:45:41 -!- Gregor has left (?). 18:45:45 it is true, alise is president of lithuania 18:45:58 we have a song about it: "$*("Y!£HNO CARRIER 18:45:59 -!- trdrkia has quit (Client Quit). 18:46:03 -!- Gregor has joined. 18:46:06 Yes, Colloquy is certainly the worst IRC client there is. 18:46:12 Gregor: It is pretty bad. 18:46:14 Gregor: Try LimeChat. 18:46:19 http://limechat.net/mac/ 18:46:20 CAN DOOOOO 18:46:21 It's got what plants crave! 18:46:52 I don't know if LimeChat has /ignore yet, but hey, what can you do. 18:46:54 (It probably does.) 18:47:05 Indeed. 18:47:09 Since 2010-05, which is... May? 18:47:10 /ignore is for pussies anyway. 18:47:39 Gregor has OMNI PERCEPTION 18:47:44 Real men face their enemies! 18:47:59 wtf ... it won't let me install RubyCocoa ... 18:48:04 Gregor: Dude. 18:48:07 Your OS includes it. 18:48:10 Assuming you're post-Tiger. 18:48:16 http://cloud.github.com/downloads/psychs/limechat/LimeChat_2.15.tbz 18:48:18 Oh, I forgot what stupid name corresponds to what. 18:48:21 Copy .app, done. 18:48:31 I saw "Snow Leopard" and went "know I don't have that", so skipped right to the next one. 18:48:37 Lawl 18:48:37 Missing that "Leopard" was there too. 18:49:00 Gregor: You probably want to go to LimeChat -> Preferencse -> Log -> Untick "Show image links inline." 18:49:09 I think that would change http://totallygoatse/ into you know what. 18:49:20 Apparently it does it for YouTube links too. 18:49:26 (It may not even be enabled by default; I don't know.) 18:49:28 hmm, I just noticed the zzo38 take on BF Joust 18:49:30 It's a good client though. 18:49:44 and have been laughing for over a minute 18:49:49 it's just so... different from how I think of it 18:49:54 although it might nonetheless be a decent game 18:49:58 link? 18:50:06 also, you laugh at *way* too little 18:50:22 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BF_Joust 18:50:24 and I know 18:50:31 well, it's not really quantity, but unexpectedness 18:50:38 some things I find funny that other people don't, and vice versa 18:51:14 i wonder what zzo's like in real life 18:51:22 i dearly hope he speaks exactly like on IRC 18:52:04 ais523: I like how he turned it into a card betting game. 18:52:06 OK, now on LimeChat. 18:52:12 Takes skill. 18:52:14 alise: indeed 18:52:23 it's like a mix between BF Joust and poker 18:52:24 Gregor: Notice the lesser amount of pain. 18:52:29 Gregor: You probably want to go to LimeChat -> Preferencse -> Log -> Untick "Show image links inline." 18:52:33 you could actually do BF Joust without the BF 18:52:37 If it is indeed ticked by default. 18:52:47 on your turn, you can: do nothing; check if your current location is 0; adjust your current location + or -; move < or > 18:52:56 alise: Why does that exist, and why is it under "Log" ... 18:53:10 Gregor: "Log" is LimeChat's name for the thing you see on screen. 18:53:15 The actual displayed meat of the channel. 18:53:16 that way you can play it as a competitive game between humans 18:53:20 Gregor: It's Japanese :P 18:53:28 As for why it exists: #goatse obvs 18:53:38 ais523: that'd be rather slow, I imagine 18:53:41 alise: Of course it is, it's in Ruby. 18:53:48 Gregor: Oh snap. 18:54:01 alise: now I'm wondering if that channel exists 18:54:03 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:54:09 ais523: rather easy way to find out 18:54:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:54:14 not that I'd join it, even if it did exist 18:54:19 * You have been kicked from #goatse by ChanServ (Invite only channel) 18:54:27 It's a very exclusive anal-stretching channel. 18:54:27 lawl 18:54:32 You need an invite. 18:54:41 You have to post relevant pics to the moderator before being allowed to join. 18:54:51 Then they discuss techniques, skills, etc. 18:55:14 Gregor: You use a bouncer, right? Which? 18:55:20 alise: bip 18:55:34 It is precisely one modicum less terrible than the other ones I've used :P 18:55:42 Gregor: Ah, shame. I had some code that made LimeChat work with my bouncer's automatic scrollback feature, actually modifying the time fields and stuff. 18:55:48 So that it looked like you'd been in there all this time. 18:55:55 *eh* 18:55:55 Gregor: Have you seen http://miau.sourceforge.net/? 18:55:58 it's a pretty good bouncer 18:56:26 I used bip only because it was recommended at me *shrugs* 18:56:34 I just recommended miau at you :P 18:56:43 I can't recall whether I used psyBNC or miau at the time I wrote that code though. 18:56:47 psyBNC is terrible. 18:56:50 Too late, bip got recommended at me earlier. 18:57:11 The problem with switching bouncers is that it's (potentially) yet another different log format. 18:57:32 fizzie: I don't log on the bouncer, I only log via xchat, and my xchat is always connected. 18:57:57 But that'd destroy my main reason for having a bouncer, which is to make switching actual IRC clients a lot easier. 18:58:14 Switching LOCATIONS is what's vital, not clients. 18:58:21 I'm on my laptop, at school right now. 18:58:27 But my home computer is still on. 18:58:44 People who use the "school" terminology post-school weird me out. 18:58:45 -!- nooga has left (?). 18:58:47 WEIRD ME OUT I say. 18:58:47 Also, the primary reason for me to have a bouncer is because having my hostname be codu.org is pretty damned suave. 18:58:53 -!- nooga has joined. 18:58:56 alise: So, Americans. 18:59:03 alise: do you have something stable? 18:59:05 alise: Since all Americans call all forms of education "school" 18:59:19 Gregor: you're a Ph.D. student right? 18:59:23 Yeah 18:59:34 I've never heard a Ph.D. student talk about going to school in the present tense, or anyone reference a Ph.D. student doing so :P 18:59:45 Unless they're the world's most retarded Ph.D. student, in which case maybe they go to little school too. 18:59:57 (Like theolog--*shot by the pope*) 19:00:04 I'm an idiot savant. I know computer science, not how to tie my shoes. 19:00:44 To each his own, I guess; I used to, and still do, run a permanently connected irssi that I'd ssh into for switching locations and having a zem.fi host; I just went bouncy to be able to experiment with clients without it messing logging and so. 19:01:23 savant 19:02:04 savant != i know computer science and i'm completely antisocial nerd that gets annoyed by daylight 19:02:04 Did anyone ever build an archiving system on ar before tar came along? 19:02:32 -!- augur has joined. 19:02:33 Like, an ar file that has a __DIRECTORIES file with a list of A, B and C separated by newlines, 19:02:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:02:41 and that means the A.ar, B.ar, C.ar files inside are more directories 19:04:55 nooga: Sarcasm (n) 19:05:20 -!- antivigilante__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:05:20 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:07:20 alise: I think cpio and tar came about precisely because ar was insufficient for real archiving :P 19:07:33 It's not insufficient, just handicapped! >___> 19:07:51 Gregor: Also, you forgot pax. 19:08:03 pax postdated by like a decade both cpio and tar 19:08:13 So no, pax came about because of limitations in cpio and tar :P 19:08:15 yay pax 19:08:22 Gregor: Correct response: 19:08:26 "No, I really didn't forget pax." 19:08:30 Or: 19:08:31 "I wish. 19:08:33 *wish." 19:09:12 I wish UNIX folks would switch to a random-access-aware compression and archival format. 19:09:26 Like PAX! 19:09:34 [[Furthermore, "pax" means "peace" in Latin, so name implies it shall create peace between the tar and cpio format supporters.]] 19:09:37 Gregor: tar and pax are random-access-aware when decompressed 19:09:49 "COMPRESSION AND ARCHIVAL" 19:09:52 alise: well, it worked, when's the last time you saw a tar/cpio flamewar? 19:10:06 Hell, even HP-UX's bizarre .gz.tar files are better than .tar.whateverz 19:10:13 pax is what happens when the IEEE tries to design software! 19:10:21 Gregor: ...gz.tar? 19:10:21 WHAT 19:10:28 Is every file inside gz'd or something? 19:10:29 alise: gzip files, /then/ tar them 19:10:33 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:10:42 alise: Gives you random access to compressed files. 19:10:58 Yes, but AAAAAAAA 19:11:08 Mind, HP-UX uses that format for installable packges, which have no use for random-access, but anywho :P 19:11:12 .xz.cpio *mwahahahaha* 19:11:24 .lzma.cab 19:11:30 * alise lols irl 19:11:37 Gregor: .xz is lzma btw :P 19:11:42 (.lzma is deprecated) 19:11:43 Only BETTAR 19:11:46 (older format) 19:11:52 Gregor: .cab.tar.cpio.cab 19:12:05 .cab.cab.cab 19:12:16 .Z.iso.shar 19:12:17 Cab! Wonderful cab! 19:12:20 I mean, there's 3DES; why not 3cab. 19:12:24 Cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab... 19:12:50 Gregor: .ext3.ext2.ext.reiserfs.7z.ar 19:12:59 I remember I had a class that required submissions in .shar format. 19:13:00 the Windows public-access computers in the EE computer labs here used to automatically rename .tar.gz files to .tar.tar 19:13:01 So bizarre. 19:13:02 for no apparent reason 19:13:17 Gregor: well, you can read shars without uncompressing them 19:13:22 Gregor: .zip.pax 19:13:24 they used to be common on Usenet for that reason 19:13:26 Free as in Free 30-Day Trial! 19:13:34 ais523: Except when they're not. 19:13:36 *.rar, for better effect 19:13:42 pikhq: well, yes 19:13:45 .ace 19:13:56 ais523: GNU shar can produce base64'd, gzip'd shars. 19:14:04 (not by default, mind) 19:14:05 pikhq: the man page says that people get annoyed when you post them to Usenet 19:14:10 Gregor: .lha.nrg 19:14:13 (Nero disk image) 19:14:13 ais523: I seem to recall the submission program that's official but nobody actually uses here recompressing .tar.gz files, so you'd get a file named .tar.gz, but that was actually a .tar.gz.gz 19:14:17 ais523: For obvious reasons. 19:14:18 Which is surprisingly annoying to extract. 19:14:27 Gregor: I can guess what you mean there 19:14:29 ais523: Might as well just MIME encode a tarball at that point. 19:14:33 (why is gzip filename-sensitive anyway?) 19:14:57 You'd have to gunzip, rename the result, then tar zxf 19:14:58 because gzip has a badly-designed UI 19:15:10 it's more a very specific UI 19:15:17 it's a bad UI. 19:15:18 good for the most common use-case, bad in other cases 19:15:18 And of course you'd never remember that it's doing this to you, so first you'd tar zxf, then it'll say "this shit ain't no tar" 19:15:22 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:15:37 impomatic: EgoBot's working again, if that's what you're here for 19:15:43 there's even been movement on the hill today 19:15:45 Thanks :-) 19:16:00 EVIL movement. 19:16:00 People need to PM me when it's not working :P 19:16:01 For uncommon usecases, you pretty much want to use it as a filter; it'll be annoying otherwise. 19:16:07 I joined #esolang first and wondered where everyone disappeared to :-) 19:16:13 pax -wf /dev/fd0 . 19:16:13 ATTENTION! pax archive volume change required. 19:16:13 /dev/fd0 ready for archive volume: 2 19:16:13 Load the NEXT STORAGE MEDIA (if required) and make sure it is WRITE ENABLED. 19:16:13 Type "y" to continue, "." to quit pax, or "s" to switch to new device. 19:16:14 If you cannot change storage media, type "s" 19:16:16 Is the device ready and online? > 19:16:18 So Unix. 19:16:50 pax splits across drives? 19:16:57 yup! 19:17:01 I'm just making a BF Joust wiki page, so I wanted to test an example 19:17:04 Real men cat then extract. 19:17:06 with a very un-unixy UI :P 19:17:07 well, across disks 19:17:08 one drive 19:17:10 catstrat 19:17:21 impomatic: in which wiki? 19:17:28 Gregor: The best archive format is "cat directory" (works on at least Plan 9 and NetBSD!) 19:17:36 -!- antivigilante has joined. 19:17:36 Sure, it's system-dependent... but who cares, it's simple! 19:17:42 What kind of thing would you use random-access compression for? 19:17:46 cat files | compress 19:17:50 alise: wtfbbq? 19:17:51 -!- antivigilante__ has joined. 19:17:55 alise: does that actually give you the files in the directory? or just the metadata? 19:18:01 ais523: just the metadata, actually 19:18:04 but whatever 19:18:07 alise: The best archive format is a filesystem dump containing just the required inodes and blocks. 19:18:08 ais523: http://programminggames.org/BF-Joust.ashx 19:18:11 :P 19:18:13 Gregor: Pretty sure it just spits out the filesystem metadata. 19:18:25 impomatic: .ashx ... you lose forever. 19:18:40 Ash as in the shell? 19:18:42 (that would actually be pretty awesome: arche2fs /dev/sda1 /home/pikhq/some_dir) 19:18:43 xD 19:18:50 "ash(1) Server Pages" 19:18:54 ash.NET 19:19:34 impomatic: Waitwaitwait, *Almquist shell* CGI? 19:20:01 pikhq, I already said that. 19:20:07 pikhq: It isn't. 19:20:10 It's ASP shit. 19:20:16 ASP MUST DIE 19:20:18 But it SHOULD be ash. 19:20:24 pikhq: Nono, ASP.NET! 19:20:25 Gregor: I didn't actually write any .NET, just picked a Wiki that used a flat file. 19:20:26 Zsh! 19:20:32 I could at least respect CGI in asp. 19:20:34 The Emacs of shells! 19:20:39 ais523: quick, link to BobTHAbsentee's tracking system 19:20:40 pikhq: *ash 19:20:46 alise: Yes. 19:20:58 impomatic: TiddlyWiki? 19:21:01 http://nomic.bob-space.com/agoralog.aspx 19:21:14 TiddlyWiki doesn't support server writes without evil. 19:21:18 pikhq: Behold ^ 19:21:20 (what ais523 said) 19:21:33 pikhq: Especially view source, look at __VIEWSTATE. 19:21:39 man zshall is nearly 1.3M long. 19:21:47 pikhq: All of Agora relied on this not that long ago. 19:21:51 man bash is only about 3K. 19:21:54 Then he left, I think he had his, what, sixth kid? 19:21:55 *300K 19:21:56 And the game collapsed! 19:22:01 alise: Ah. Well, there must be *something* better... 19:22:12 pikhq: BEHOLD THE ASP.NET PAIN 19:22:25 Zuu, explain! 19:22:27 Well, there's Wikit; the in-Tcl single-file wiki/web server. 19:22:30 proto: only infertile people can control all recordkeeping 19:22:31 Wrong channel... 19:22:36 pikhq: Wikipage? 19:23:12 alise: ... No, the whole wiki is a single file. 19:23:12 pikhq: Why don't you play Agora anymore btw? 19:23:18 pikhq: I meant, the wiki.tcl.tk page for it. 19:23:23 alise: Oh. 19:23:31 wiki.tcl.tk/1 19:23:55 I've just been playing with Tcl 19:24:17 alise: when you plan to show some bits of this golfed roguelike? 19:24:41 pikhq: /1? old page! 19:24:43 does wiki.tcl.tk run on it? 19:24:44 impomatic: FukYorBrane isn't there :( 19:24:44 alise: I don't play Agora because... Uh. I don't. 19:24:47 alise: Yes. 19:24:47 or did it in the past? 19:24:52 pikhq: You used to play Agora :P 19:24:53 nooga, he's shown bits of it before. 19:24:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:24:56 nooga: I have; want the current version? 19:24:58 alise: It has always run on Wikit. 19:25:12 They believe in eating their own dog food. :) 19:25:21 -!- augur has joined. 19:25:33 nooga: 19:25:35 vagrant.py http://pastie.org/1205917.txt?key=qvb1dnfruxbofgx4xmpog 19:25:39 debug.py http://pastie.org/1205918.txt?key=hpfmpbouu9kh8ki3kwgta 19:25:45 Run debug.py if you make any changes; it lets you see exceptions. 19:25:51 Gregor: I still think that starting with 0, followed by defect, followed by a very very very long loop, is a breaking strategy in FYB 19:26:01 because it causes your IP to move faster than the enemy pointer's speed of light 19:26:04 And yes, monsters do disappear if you walk into them; and yes, they do walk randomly. For now. 19:26:15 thus, you then have unlimited time to track them down, unless they're using the same strategy 19:26:26 there is a counter-strategy, but it sucks against anything else... 19:26:37 ais523: Then PROVE IT. 19:26:45 ais523: logicex-2 still stands as king of the hill! 19:26:51 oh right, the hill's still up 19:26:52 illogicex 19:29:49 The Haskell wiki is not written in Haskell. 19:29:53 WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT HASKELL? 19:30:05 It says that they were lazy and just used MediaWiki. 19:30:08 Perhaps that using it to write super-stateful things such as wikis is a form of torture? 19:30:12 That MediaWiki is awesome. 19:30:18 That MediaWiki is awesome. 19:30:20 Blatantly false.g 19:30:21 *false. 19:30:28 Gregor: I'll add FYB at some point. Unless you want to add it? 19:30:29 Gregor: there are many wikis in haskell, but if they had written one in haskell 19:30:32 you'd be saying: 19:30:36 "Toootally NIH" 19:31:00 Anyway, it is written in Haskell, but the code is so lazy it just calls MW. 19:31:16 Gregor: It's not that painful in Haskell. It's just that you should probably either abstract or use a different language. 19:32:13 Gregor: It's not that painful in Haskell. It's just that you should probably either abstract or use a different language. 19:32:16 Rather than write a wiki? 19:32:20 I don't understand 19:32:28 *understand. 19:32:31 alise: No, I mean "for writing super-stateful things". 19:32:36 Ah. 19:32:56 What about that continuation-based server thingy? 19:35:05 pikhq: so wikit is tclkit? 19:35:07 that seems chaeting 19:35:24 or wait 19:35:27 is tclkit just a tcl interpreter bundle? 19:36:07 * alise wonders what TclVfs is 19:36:22 pikhq: You know of Rebol? 19:36:55 alise: Vaguely. 19:36:59 egobot: wiki_test [>[-]-] 19:37:03 alise: Tclkit is just a Tcl interpreter bundle. 19:37:18 Gregor: I'm having trouble uploading my breaking FYB program to a pastebin, it's around a megabyte long 19:37:31 I've been playing with activestate Tcl. 19:37:49 ais523: filebin? 19:37:59 pikhq: Rebol is quite cool. Similar to Tcl in a way. 19:37:59 egobot wouldn't be able to read it, would it? 19:38:05 Is EgoBot working? 19:38:11 ais523: why not? 19:38:14 it's still sent in the http body 19:38:18 hmm, perhaps 19:38:23 try it 19:38:25 impomatic: yes, but it uses ! for commands 19:38:29 i bet it ignores the attachment header 19:38:31 alise: TclVfs is the Tcl virtual filesystem layer. 19:38:37 !bf_txtgen test 19:38:39 (egobot) 19:38:41 alise: TclKit can include a filesystem image bundled with it, mount via TclVfs, and voila -- single-file distribution of your program. 19:38:44 pikhq: That I had already gathered. 19:38:53 pikhq: Ah. 19:38:58 pikhq: Does Wikit do that? 19:39:02 Yes. 19:39:04 If so: totally cheating. 19:39:06 Well, it can. 19:39:07 pikhq: You said single-file. :P 19:39:23 That said single file is an archive is beside the point. :P 19:39:33 !help 19:39:40 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 19:39:42 I'm pretty sure it's only using the archive for... Archiving the wiki itself, though. 19:39:43 pikhq: So it's actually like ten files, I bet. :P 19:39:43 there we go 19:39:45 Oh. 19:39:46 Okay then. 19:39:50 61 +++++++++[>+>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++><<<<-]>>-.>++.<-.+.<+. [73] 19:39:55 impomatic: it's working 19:40:34 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957059 19:40:46 I reduced it to 140000 bytes, should still be enough to beat existing programs 19:41:00 (there are numerous ways to improve it, this is just a tech demo) 19:41:15 if it loses, it's because I've screwed up the execution somewhere as I've never written FYB 19:41:47 ais523: why the reluctance to try filebin.ca? 19:42:01 alise: Oh, it's more than 1 file in the archive, but only because it can *also* run as a CGI script or as a Tk program for browsing said wiki. 19:42:08 because I was already working on pastebin.ca at the time 19:42:11 pikhq: Bah! 19:42:17 and besides, I'm not sure how efficient the FYB interp is 19:42:38 alise: Hey, it's pretty spiffy to be able to run the wiki on localhost and just browse it. 19:42:42 Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0 19:42:42 It shouldn't be this slow, this is weird ... 19:42:49 Haw 19:42:52 and shouldn't do that badly, either 19:43:05 Here's a hint: 19:43:06 perhaps I misinterpreted what [] does while defected? 19:43:09 You have to actually WIN 19:43:12 the spec's rather unclear 19:43:17 Gregor: I know, there's a loop at the end that should win 19:43:19 pikhq: BAH YOU TCL GUYS MAKING GOOD CODE 19:43:26 by NOPing the entire enemy program, then replacing it with bombs 19:43:35 wtf, why isn't the report posted ... 19:43:37 hmm, theory, it's NOPing the bombs as it lays them 19:43:39 I bet EgoBot gave up before reaching it 19:44:21 17435 codu 20 0 320m 97m 6172 S 91.3 9.6 0:38.15 trac 19:44:23 WTF TRAC 19:44:27 Why are you taking 99% CPU, Trac 19:45:02 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957069 19:45:03 Why must Trac always be the bane of my existence? 19:45:08 Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0 19:45:17 hmm 19:46:10 Gregor: ah, my program's just drawing with every other program 19:46:11 ais523, so how should it work? 19:46:12 due to the interp timing out 19:46:21 it's working perfectly, just the interp doesn't handle the brilliance of my program 19:46:27 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Be right back.). 19:46:29 Interp timing out? It gives you 1 million iterations or something. 19:46:32 Phantom_Hoover: it just moves the IP faster than the enemy's pointer's speed of light 19:46:46 -!- Deewiant has joined. 19:46:46 ...How? 19:46:54 by using a [] loop with the current element set to 0 19:47:05 Oh, it skips forward. 19:48:50 * ais523 replaces the kill stuff at the end with the simple bomber example from the README 19:49:05 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957070 19:49:45 Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0 19:50:17 report.txt is blank 19:50:22 * ais523 tries again 19:50:25 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957070 19:50:29 Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0 19:50:30 I think EgoBot just doesn't handle the program 19:51:12 still, this doesn't mean that the /principle/ is broken 19:51:18 Hahahaha 19:51:26 There's a super-secret program length limit apparently :P 19:52:15 Maaaan I was a shitty coder back in '05 X-D 19:52:30 Make it 32k or less and see what happens :P 19:52:55 (I should rewrite this ... ) 19:54:07 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076 19:54:11 Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0 19:54:16 hmm... 19:54:27 report.txt blank again 19:54:28 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076 19:54:32 Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0 19:54:39 and again 19:54:41 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076 19:54:47 Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0 19:54:59 and again, I give up trying to figure out what's going on here 19:55:07 that's only 31 and a bit K... 19:55:25 That's not the issue any more. 19:55:26 It loads. 19:55:31 Wait for the report to finish generating. 19:56:08 it's taking a while 19:56:21 It's not actually doing anything it seems :P 19:56:26 Crufty piece o' garbage 19:56:29 *kicks EgoBot* 19:56:42 !fyb nothing [] 19:57:23 Score for Gregor_nothing: 23.1 19:57:23 I don't understand why the BFJoust hill is so stable and FYB isn't, when they're basically the same software ... 19:57:36 maybe it's the interp itself 19:57:43 Gregor: Did you rewrite the FYB hill? 19:57:46 3 | 0 + 0 + 0 + - - + - 0 - - + 0 | 25.3 | 0 | ais523_lightspeed1.fyb 19:57:48 Or is the Joust one based on the FYB one? 19:58:17 Gregor: clearly 32k isn't enough for complete immunity from everything 19:58:21 alise: The Joust one is based on the FYB one. Probably improved. If anybody cared I'd fix it though :P 19:58:30 given that I used a /very/ slow but relatively sure method of bombing the opponent 19:58:33 ais523: Good excuse there, Mr. My-Strategy-Doesn't-Work-Waaaah :P 19:58:48 ais523: why not run it locally? 19:58:54 Gregor: the strategy can be mathematically proven to work, given a long enough size advantage over the opponent 19:59:00 alise: because then Gregor would never believe me 19:59:11 yes he would 19:59:19 he's joking 19:59:29 I just don't want FYB to be broken X-P 20:01:06 btw, a long string of NOPs at the start of the program works just as well, possibly even more effectively 20:01:30 because unless the opponent starts with an equally long string of >s, you outspeed them by moving at lightspeed while the opponent has to do some sort of logic 20:03:01 * Gregor is presently trying to figure out why logicex-2 wins. 20:03:15 oh shit 20:03:19 my satiation counter wraps around 20:03:22 $:909 T:808 S:0 HP:100 (345) 20:03:24 after i ate some food 20:03:29 oops 20:03:30 good thing i have all those potions 20:03:40 is there a potion counter? 20:03:42 (that's 345 hp i can add on to mine, 20 per turn) 20:03:47 how can anyone possibly manage worse manual translation to English than the automated translation of English with google translate... 20:03:47 ais523: yes, after the HP count in ()s 20:03:53 q moves 20 from that to the hp 20:03:55 taking one turn 20:03:58 ah, I see 20:04:08 whoops 20:04:10 exactly the same notation as NetHack, entirely different meaning 20:04:11 didn't take a potion first turn 20:04:14 died summarily 20:04:23 " Gregor: the strategy can be mathematically proven to work, given a long enough size advantage over the opponent" 20:04:27 Argh. 20:04:32 ais523: it'll probably be HP:now/max (potion) if i add a max hp 20:04:36 "Moshe Sipper invented non-uniform cellular automata, which are cellular automata in which the CA-rules are local to each cell and can be copied onto neighbouring cells. Non-uniform CA rules can be designed to model conservation of mass." 20:04:38 if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D();endwin();print'You survived for '+N+' turns and had $'+G+' when you died.';exit() 20:04:38 TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects 20:04:39 whoops. 20:05:00 you can do that in Java... 20:05:15 and if even /Java/ lets you do something, it must be pretty nonesoteric 20:05:17 * Vorpal invents a silly addition function. 20:06:09 * Phantom_Hoover invents a silly multiplication function. 20:06:12 Is the Python % operator still the way to do formatted output, or did they do something different there? (I mean, I know it works, but if it's somehow unclean.) 20:06:24 if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D();endwin();print'You survived for %s turns and had $%%s when you died.'%N%G;exit() 20:06:29 It's shorter than %(N,G)! 20:07:24 Golfing in Python? 20:07:37 yes 20:07:46 Sgeo: i will now give you a heart attack: 20:07:50 W=[32]*1000+[36,81]*5+[37]*3+[35]*50+[33] 20:07:52 q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q) 20:07:53 s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s S:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,S,L,P));global V;V();V=lambda:1;s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40) 20:08:07 *gibber* 20:08:18 w.update(q);U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1) 20:08:22 w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17 a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu') 20:08:30 Oh, fun fact: I posted a link to something. Warrigal posted on Reddit. Warrigal got almost 1k karma from it 20:08:33 if P and L+20<301:q=min(P,20);L+=q;U+=q*3*(U>0);P-=q;T() 20:08:35 The end. 20:08:50 Sgeo: let me guess, you're angry at him now. 20:08:57 and yes, it's that obvious 20:09:01 I'd be happy for him if that happened 20:09:07 sgeo wouldn't 20:09:10 Not _actually_ angry. Joking angry 20:09:11 alise: where's the redraw in that? 20:09:26 And angry at myself for not thinking of posting it myself 20:09:33 ais523: that's not the whole code, just particularly abhorrent snippets 20:09:38 Render the addition as an image, the usual way humans write such downs (numbers above each other and such). Font should be Comic Sans if that is available on the system. Now do OCR on the image for each column, writing the result to the relevant place below that column. If you get a carry, update the image above the next column as usual. Continue until done. Then read the result line back using OCR. 20:09:41 alise: that's horrible :P 20:09:48 yorick: that's awesome. 20:09:55 awesomely horrible 20:10:03 alise, cool code above :P 20:10:08 Sgeo: you mean the kind of joking angry that means actually angry? :p 20:10:10 Vorpal: quite. 20:10:30 alise, is there any IOPCC? 20:10:31 I like using nonalphabetic variables in Perl so you don't need to use a space between them and a keyword 20:11:11 wait...that's actually python? 20:11:27 * Sgeo misread ais523 as zzo38 20:11:30 alise, why does this need to be two lines: 20:11:34 w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17 a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu') 20:11:36 Sgeo: how? 20:11:47 Nick colors, I think 20:11:48 Vorpal: they aren't consecutive, is my guess 20:11:52 ah 20:12:04 Vorpal: separate 20:12:07 it's the Best Of 20:12:15 yorick: yup, python 20:12:19 alise, ah. What remains to be written? 20:12:26 I still think you should use thin-spaces to golf it even further 20:12:34 alise: :( 20:12:38 Vorpal: it has the need to eat, turn count, money, HP, potions, walls, full movement... 20:12:40 ais523, I doubt python will parse that? 20:12:48 Vorpal: to actually be fun in a sense just requires a little bit of dumb AI code 20:13:03 * yorick should create an irssi script that will color the nicks the way I want 20:13:04 alise, and the TARDIS? 20:13:11 even now it's fun to play and see if the RNG hates you (i.e. see how long you can survive; food doesn't last long) 20:13:13 (and rack up cash) 20:13:25 Vorpal: not at that stage yet 20:13:32 alise, ah 20:13:39 Vorpal: you can have the current code if you want 20:13:43 the Qs even move! 20:13:45 yorick: you can script this thing? bitchen 20:13:46 oh yeah it has hallucination too 20:13:49 alise, also about the food, surely if the world is infinite it shouldn't be impossible to find more? 20:13:50 1/15 chance of bad food 20:13:53 laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl 20:13:58 ais523: You know there is no '-', right? 20:14:04 Vorpal: you have limited satiation, though 20:14:12 cpressey: I probably could, but I hate perl 20:14:14 Vorpal: so can you survive long enough to get to it? 20:14:15 Gregor: oh, right 20:14:17 (yes, almost always) 20:14:18 alise, ah 20:14:20 should have been [+], I wasn't thinking 20:14:22 (but still, it's easy to lose track) 20:14:24 (it doesn't matter for that program) 20:14:29 Vorpal: max. 300 turns before you lose 50 hp/turn 20:14:35 (maximum satiation is 300) 20:14:42 ais523: Uhh, yes it does, you'll be in a tight worthless loop. 20:14:42 and food doesn't always replenish it fully 20:14:45 alise, ouch, that is a bit too nasty 20:14:56 Gregor: I mean, it doesn't matter whether it's + or - 20:14:57 (if you convert a random wav file to text, you get executable perl) 20:15:01 (nor how tight the loop is, using that strategy) 20:15:03 Vorpal: that's why you keep your HP up so that once you lose 50 you have enough time to get to food :) 20:15:12 ais523: Right, so fix it :P 20:15:20 am doing so 20:15:24 alise, can't you carry food? 20:15:26 guh, my HP wrapped arround to 4 20:15:36 Vorpal: nope, i avoid state like the plague :D 20:15:41 Vorpal: most things are done directly on the grid 20:15:43 alise, aww 20:15:45 for instance there is no model behind the object grid 20:15:50 walking onto something makes it disappear 20:16:00 and monsters are moved by actually looking at the visible screen and moving them around 20:16:03 alise, it isn't just 'EM or 'ELM that is needed, it is 'EILM 20:16:16 slav, Super Lotsa Additions Vagrant 20:16:30 Phantom_Hoover: So non-uniform cellular automata are... neighbouring state machines. 20:16:35 alise, how does hallu work then? 20:16:42 alise, it permanently changes the grid? 20:16:44 "L%=301" fun fact, this does not impose a max health! 20:16:53 cpressey, more or less, I suppose. 20:16:57 alise, oh? 20:17:05 just make the playfield layout non-uniform too, and it's... a big state machine. 20:17:06 no, it makes you drop health rapidly if you get too much :P 20:17:12 alise, ah :P 20:17:14 i now have 4 hp due to no fault of my own 20:17:16 cpressey, not helpful. 20:17:18 Phantom_Hoover: feels like a decay of theory 20:17:39 cpressey, CAs are just big state machines. 20:17:46 alise, evil, surely you can make L=min(L,300) shorter somehow? 20:17:53 Phantom_Hoover: part of what makes them special is their uniform structure 20:18:04 Vorpal: i'm just not doing it, i'm sure i can check L<301 elsewhere 20:18:13 Vorpal: L-=25*(L and S<1) 20:18:14 cpressey, well, you could simulate it with loads and loads of states. 20:18:19 alise, as for the playfield, does it remember previous screens? 20:18:20 that is, "if L>0 and S==0, decrease L by 25" 20:18:23 I presume so? 20:18:27 "U+=U>0" 20:18:30 so the playfield grows over time 20:18:31 if we are hallucinating, increase the hallucination counter 20:18:33 Vorpal: yes 20:18:37 explore too much and you run out of memory 20:18:42 Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever. 20:18:49 "S-=S>0" 20:18:53 If we have any satiation, lose one point of it. 20:19:09 "X+=17 alise: chase 20:19:35 cpressey: nope 20:19:38 it scrolls the playfield 20:19:40 "S-=S>0" <--- err 20:19:43 how does that work? 20:19:45 I was getting to that? 20:19:48 *! 20:19:49 lawl 20:19:51 oh well no prize for me 20:19:57 Vorpal: (S>0) = True equiv-to 1 20:20:01 (S>0) = False equiv-to 0 20:20:04 S -= 1 decreases S 20:20:05 and i ruined Phantom_Hoover's chance! 20:20:06 alise, ahahaha 20:20:06 S -= 0 does nothing 20:20:11 well no. alise did 20:20:28 my hallu is so pitiful, you can just keep telling the game to redraw and it works :D 20:20:36 now what would be cool is hallu that actually permanently fixed the map! 20:20:40 Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever. <-- what about biological ones? 20:20:43 alise: that's how hallu works in real life too 20:20:46 Not as cool/ 20:20:54 you just keep redrawing and you can tell what's real 20:20:54 lawl 20:20:55 i mean 20:20:57 you can redraw 20:20:59 without taking turns 20:21:01 and it re-hallucinates 20:21:07 meaning if you hold down enter it's easy to see what's what 20:21:17 Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever. <-- what about biological ones? 20:21:25 well i don't know if mechanical self-replicators enjoy replicating as much... 20:21:25 Vorpal, http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/ctf20/dphil_2005/Thesis/Chapter1/Chapter1Figs/breivik2001.pdf 20:21:30 Much cooler. 20:21:40 alise, XD 20:21:41 Oh yeah baby, feed me that molten metal so that I can assemble a copy of myself. 20:21:53 Yes, you totally assemble computers with MOLTEN METAL 20:21:57 Phantom_Hoover, has any been built btw? 20:22:01 Also I suppose that's a bit of a role reversal there. 20:22:07 gah, dns seems broken 20:22:09 Vorpal, read the PDF, I suppose. 20:22:12 nothing loads 20:22:15 Phantom_Hoover, give me server ip! 20:22:20 hee, i think i'm a wall 20:22:56 so a mechanical replicator would need to be "smart" enough to assemble a copy of itself -- so it would need a relatively powerful computer -- so it would need to build integrated circuits 20:22:57 Vorpal, with whois or what? 20:23:05 which is a bit fucking nontrivial 20:23:08 Phantom_Hoover, host presumably 20:23:12 cpressey, not that complex. 20:23:27 i could see it not needing a trult integrated circuit 20:23:30 *truly 20:23:37 Vorpal, 139.184.49.162 20:23:38 hm 20:23:43 lets hope it isn't using vhosts 20:24:05 It works with lots of little plastic nucleotides, though, not true self-replication. 20:24:10 ah works 20:24:12 But it's still pretty cool. 20:24:14 cpressey: relay logic might work 20:24:24 several telephone exchanges work on that basis 20:24:40 cpressey, it depends on what you define as the raw material 20:24:58 cpressey, imagine an universe where stuff like ARM cpus occur naturally :P 20:25:28 In this case, the raw material is elements designed to stick together magnetically in an appropriate way. 20:25:31 oh and li-ion batteries are found in certain geological formations 20:26:58 SAND. all you have to start is SAND. 20:27:06 Penrose did a similar but less sophisticated system with 2 elements in 1 dimension. 20:27:08 THAT will impress me. 20:27:32 Er, SAND and IRON. 20:27:45 Hard to make motors out of just sand. 20:27:50 Given an infinite series of A B... a single cluster will tend to self-replicate. 20:28:01 cpressey, taking the easy way out, eh? 20:28:17 -!- impomatic has left (?). 20:28:37 cpressey: MAKE IRON OUT OF SAND 20:29:31 uh oh, i just ate rotten food when already hallucinating 20:29:37 MAKE SILICON AND DOPE IT 20:29:42 although in some cases that can actually cure you. 20:29:45 alise: RADIOACTIVE MOBILE CHIP FACTORY 20:29:53 in fact, in all cases. 20:29:54 well some. 20:30:00 ais523: I'M WAITIN' 20:30:32 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097 20:30:37 Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 25.3 20:30:39 sorry, closed the tab rather than submitting it for some reason 20:30:47 wait no 20:30:48 \o/ 20:30:48 always hurts you 20:30:48 | 20:30:49 |\ 20:30:55 a positive score 20:30:57 Gregor: how do you get the report to come up? 20:31:05 cpressey: that's the same score it got last time, I think 20:31:07 the scoring thing is broken 20:31:14 i guess i missed that 20:31:21 ais523: Idonno, I just submitted something else then it worked that time :P 20:31:21 i nly remember 0.0's 20:31:25 !fyb nothing [] 20:31:28 Score for Gregor_nothing: 23.1 20:31:34 ais523: I'll have to debug that tonight. 20:32:19 quick, what's the range of printable ascii? 20:32:28 !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097 <-- what was % now again? 20:32:34 NOP 20:32:38 ah 20:32:39 alise: 32-126 20:32:42 ais523: thanks 20:32:47 ais523, and @ ? 20:32:51 q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q) 20:32:53 Hallu: too wimpy. 20:32:57 ais523: Ohhhh, it seems to get confused if you use a name that's already in use X_X 20:33:01 Vorpal: defect (start analysing your own program) 20:33:03 q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,r(32,126)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q) 20:33:05 That's more like it. 20:33:07 Gregor: OK...? 20:33:08 ais523: is 126 valid too? 20:33:13 !fyb lightspeed1a http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097 20:33:14 ais523, hm okay 20:33:19 alise: yes, ~ 20:33:22 ais523: valid as in printable. righ 20:33:23 *right 20:33:24 127 is a control char, though 20:33:46 ais523: I'll have to look into this weirdness :P 20:33:47 Score for ais523_lightspeed1a: 21.1 20:34:11 mzstorkipiwanbot: So eventually you'll support four variable scopes: message scope, nick scope, channel scope, and global variables. 20:34:11 cpressey: I disagree! 20:34:14 ais523, why resubmit the same thing? 20:34:21 Vorpal: see above 20:34:22 I guess I could even have a server scope, but... 20:34:38 Lightspeedia, Wikipeedia. 20:34:44 ais523, above where? 20:34:55 ais523: I'll fix the borkitude on Saturdayish ... 20:35:03 ais523, scanned last screensful, saw nothing 20:35:07 Lightspeedia is an encyclopedia made entirely out of light. 20:35:18 *lights. 20:35:35 Vorpal: ais523: Ohhhh, it seems to get confused if you use a name that's already in use X_X 20:35:40 ah 20:36:50 mzstorkipiwanbot, wha? 20:36:58 Since when were you here? 20:37:51 Phantom_Hoover: since this morning (my time) 20:38:06 So, um, 6 hours ish ago 20:38:33 and its nick should really be "mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot" but that's too long 20:40:06 * alise has been hallu for the past N minutes 20:40:25 cpressey: Wait, are you actually doing that IRC-language thing? 20:40:36 alise: i have no time but yes 20:40:47 cpressey: 20:40:51 Err 20:40:59 Wait, why am I back in crappy Colloquy anyway ... 20:41:02 $:2689 T:2307 S:252 HP:300 (380) 20:41:04 Gregor: XD 20:41:38 cpressey: Will it have MEMORY SAFETY WITHOUT GC? 20:41:56 i need to rewrite what i have so far of the bot in some language less unappealing to me than python 20:41:59 Memory safety without GC: No free(), all memory leaks 20:42:26 Gregor: no. it will be unsafe in the sense that anyone could come along and change your global variables anyway. 20:42:35 alise: Apparently you missed cpressey's and my big argument about this, resulting in Eightebed which does fit my requirements but is so terrible :P 20:42:38 HOW AM I LOSING HP 20:42:40 oh poisoned food 20:42:41 duh 20:42:47 Gregor: I did not miss it 20:42:55 Gregor: I named Eightebed 20:43:04 alise: WHY 20:43:12 cpressey, what irc language thingy? 20:43:18 hm dns seems to work again 20:43:21 Gregor: http://catseye.tc/projects/eightebed/doc/website_eightebed.html; /Legal Issues/ 20:43:40 "To have a literate specification written in SUPER ITALIAN, thus giving all programs the power of UNMATCHED PROPHETIC SNEEZING." 20:44:21 Does reference counting count as GC? 20:45:00 Sgeo: It doesn't fit the requirements I set out because it leaks. 20:45:00 * Sgeo goes to try Samorost 20:45:16 Regardless of whether it counts as GC or not. 20:45:18 Sgeo: I think it does 20:45:32 Gregor: unless your language forbids circular structures. 20:45:37 Alas, poor yorick, whoTF is this guy. 20:45:45 cpressey: Then your language is made of FAIL. 20:45:54 Perl folks call what they have a GC, and it's reference-counting. (With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.) 20:45:59 $:3151 T:2859 S:291 HP:286 (324) 20:46:00 Gregor: Then all functional languages are made of FAIL. 20:46:08 I'll die now, since the game is insufferably boring. 20:46:22 fizzie: Wait, what? Why GC at the end? The OS will reclaim it all anyway! 20:46:23 alise, the game you made? 20:46:28 cpressey: Yes, they are X-P 20:46:34 cpressey: x=1:x 20:46:35 but i agree, circular structures are iffy 20:46:50 i read some stuff about a language lacking them, was interesting. 20:47:07 Gregor: .... 20:47:12 cpressey: The two official motivations I've seen are (a) making sure all finalizers get called at least once, and (b) for the case where the interpreter is embedded in some other process that's not going to terminate that point, and might in fact restart it again. 20:47:14 alise: OK, maybe not *all* functional languages, depending on implementation details etc, but you catch my meaning 20:47:15 omg Gregor doesn't know me! 20:47:48 fizzie: ok, that's fair i suppose 20:48:02 yorick: neither do I 20:48:17 olsner: you should 20:48:18 yorick: nor do i, except that you've been here the past few days 20:48:27 which is about all you could know about me 20:48:34 I've been here since saturday 20:48:58 SO SECRETIVE 20:49:23 yorick: so what's your story, Dark Stranger who Wandered into Town Recently? 20:49:24 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:49:28 cpressey: Oh, and also because Perl's "ithreads" mean each thread gets a completely separate copy of the whole interpreter, and they want those not to leak either. 20:49:35 -!- tombom_ has quit (Changing host). 20:49:35 -!- tombom_ has joined. 20:49:52 cpressey: I knew about this channel for some time, but never bothered to join...and then I got an assignment that got brainfuck 20:49:56 "A more complete garbage collection strategy will be implemented at a future date." 20:50:03 What's really incredible about refcounting is that it's usually slower than even a naive mark-and-sweep :P 20:50:07 and then I saw the beauty if this channel (saw beyond Vorpal) 20:50:14 of* 20:50:36 and now I'm idling here 20:50:36 alise: Looks like you've got a Vorpal-hatred buddy X-P 20:50:37 Gregor: but responsiveness is more predictable (go the arguments) 20:50:45 yorick, err what? 20:51:03 cpressey: Eh, fair enough. 20:51:18 Vorpal: oh...nothing 20:51:24 X-D 20:51:27 Vorpal: you scare new people away 20:51:33 * Gregor <3 hatred 20:51:46 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 20:52:22 i read some stuff about a language lacking them, was interesting. <-- um, lots of functional languages lack circular structures 20:52:55 Gregor: except it's not really true. i unlink a structure -- i have to check if it's an orphan -- i have to traverse it -- oh wait, how big is this thing? 20:53:00 yorick, heh? 20:53:02 excpet i think there might be tricks around that 20:53:19 "(With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.)" ...why? For embedding? 20:53:21 Gregor: especially against Vorpal eh 20:53:33 alise, scheme without setf! and similar wouldn't allow circular structures I think? 20:53:40 yorick: No, I feed on hatred in general. 20:53:42 isomorphic to needing a sweep phase, i guess 20:53:48 * yorick hugs Gregor 20:53:55 ARRRRRRRRGH 20:54:01 Vorpal: And no optional laziness. 20:54:02 "(With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.)" ...why? For embedding? <-- um look above 20:54:12 pikhq, oh true 20:54:12 alise: yes, he said embedding. and finalizing. 20:54:31 pikhq, I'm pretty sure you can't get circular structures in erlang btw 20:55:01 nor Pixley fwiw 20:55:20 cpressey, I'm not familiar with that one. One of yours? 20:55:26 Vorpal: yes 20:55:39 Vorpal: it's Scheme minus Scheme 20:55:49 cpressey, the null set? 20:56:13 Vorpal: no, more like Garfield minus Garfield 20:56:30 cpressey, ah 20:56:30 Vorpal: YOU SEE HOW THE ONE WORD CAN HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS 20:56:31 :) 20:56:40 hmm, there's an interesting paradigm, every input is an incorrect program 20:57:04 cpressey, indeed. I admit I'm not 100% sure how to interpret the meanings in this case though 20:57:36 which would be the effect if the set of correct programs is the null set 20:57:54 * pikhq found his in-C SKI interpreter 20:57:57 ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ python debug.py 20:57:57 You survived for 3176 turns and had $3505 when you died. 20:57:58 Good God that's crazy. 20:58:28 olsner, depends on what you do on "incorrect" data. For brainfuck-brainfuck every program would be a nop 20:58:29 THAT MEANS I WIN 20:58:29 More money than turns! 20:58:33 I had forgotten how mad this code was. 20:58:52 olsner, unless the definition of what you do on incorrect data is part of the language that got substracted away 20:58:55 Vorpal: well, the interpreter should print an error and abort 20:59:10 Especially where I copy a thunk before it's evaluated so that I can do an infinite list of input. 20:59:15 olsner, in which case all programming languages minus themselves are the same programming language 20:59:16 supposedly any computation would have to be in controlling the kind of error you get 20:59:25 olsner, hm 20:59:37 olsner, "how do we make this TC" ;) 21:00:02 how to find TC-ness or making something TC is all I ever think about 21:00:10 alise, debug.py? 21:00:37 olsner, hm 21:00:41 pikhq: sounds awesome... is this on the internet? 21:01:18 -!- alise_ has joined. 21:01:48 olsner: Lemme tar it up. 21:01:55 for instance: do type-level calculation, cause a type mismatch, the "expected foo, found <...>" prints the output you've produced 21:02:16 but that would be a slightly boring way to do it 21:02:30 12:46:22 fizzie: Wait, what? Why GC at the end? The OS will reclaim it all anyway! 21:02:35 holy shit i missed this and everything after 21:02:38 (oh, and the point would be that you have to make the type system so that there are no correct programs) 21:02:55 I don't quite know how to do that 21:03:15 12:50:36 alise: Looks like you've got a Vorpal-hatred buddy X-P 21:03:15 I really, really need to get a webhost. 21:03:17 that makes two! 21:03:28 pikhq: just put it on github? 21:03:37 it works for pages and code anyway 21:04:36 min(L+min(P,20),300) 21:04:36 min(L+P,L+20,300) 21:04:36 if k=='q': 21:04:36 q=min(P,20);L=min(L+q,300) 21:04:36 if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),300);P-=q;T() 21:04:36 continue 21:04:38 Prizes for golfing this. 21:04:40 Since when is Dwarf Fortress available for Linux? 21:04:57 speaking of git: has anything been done in the field of esoteric version control? 21:05:23 13:00:10 alise, debug.py? 21:05:27 vagrant's debug launcher 21:05:39 olsner: i think ais523 had some thoughts 21:05:41 maybe noti 21:05:42 *not 21:05:43 i have some thoughts too 21:05:47 olsner: as for existing examples 21:05:58 olsner: No. Wants host. 21:06:00 alise_: I have, but haven't got much futher 21:06:01 *further 21:06:08 also, it was a surprisingly non-eso project 21:06:22 olsner: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial/index.html 21:06:30 or http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial-old/arch.html 21:06:36 actually 21:06:37 just http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial-old/arch.html 21:06:40 is the complete, crazy one 21:06:47 but I started with the concept of "version control system which can manage any command in any other common DVCS as a special case of one or more of its commands + a UI" and "only has five commands" 21:06:53 and then tried to make things fit from there 21:07:01 ais523: that's how git is designed 21:07:08 except it's more like 10 commands i think 21:07:10 maybe 7 21:07:11 yes, but git fails at it 21:07:14 the 5 is very important 21:07:20 that *exact* number? :P 21:07:25 also, it fails at doing some things that, say, darcs does trivially 21:07:28 and yes, that *exact* number 21:08:30 minimalistic version control, I like the sound of it 21:08:36 ais523: what about 6? 21:08:37 -!- tombom has quit (*.net *.split). 21:08:38 -!- alise has quit (*.net *.split). 21:08:38 -!- Wamanuz has quit (*.net *.split). 21:08:42 alise_: 6 is not 5 21:08:52 you're crazy :D 21:08:53 look, you can set arbitrary goals for an esolang, right? 21:08:57 why can't you set them for other programs? 21:09:11 maybe a place to start is to figure out the counterpart of turing complete for version control 21:09:27 esoteric version control! 21:09:45 alise_: I do have an idea of the model to use, though, and a name 21:09:50 the name is... scapegoat 21:09:54 Moo 21:10:26 alise_: Who's ə? Me? 21:10:34 ^ what is wrong with Agoran nicknames 21:10:35 Somebody needs to make a 2D competitive programming languages. 21:10:51 someone was talking about BeYourFunge, or something like that 21:11:03 Awww, they're naming it after mine. 21:11:30 ais523: :D 21:11:40 Gregor: I did BeYourFunge, I think 21:11:43 BeYorFunge it was I think 21:11:45 it didn't work 21:12:07 alise_, ah ok (wrt debug.py) 21:12:19 Actually, somebody needs to make a 3D competitive programming ENVIRONMENT in which the programs can be written in any arbitrary language, and there's some overarching laws of physics to dictate how one might find another :P 21:12:19 night → 21:12:25 Vorpal: quick, if i give you the latest version will you see how long you can survive?!:!?!?!?! 21:12:29 In other words, we need a space-flight simulator where people write captain programs. 21:13:05 > > > I lower ehird's position on the list by 1, for a fee. 21:13:06 :-( 21:13:42 ais523: please tell me your model has deduplicative storage as a separate, non-main part 21:13:52 (deduplicative = store diffs, not the entire tree, basically, for every revision) 21:13:56 alise_: it's an implementation detail 21:14:11 well, i'm talking details 21:14:12 but the model is more easily implemented by storing diffs, than by storing trees 21:14:25 doing it via trees would be awfully complex, except for caching 21:17:05 how does it work, then? 21:17:09 >:D 21:17:26 OK, rough explanation because a) this isn't written down anywhere, and b) I worked it out entirely in my head 21:17:35 "Like Feather!" 21:17:37 but basically, each line ever added to anything has its own unique ID 21:17:38 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise. 21:17:44 ais523: line? how ... 21:17:46 how kludgy 21:18:14 also, indentation increase/decrease counts as a special token on a line of its own, but that's more incidental to the way everything works 21:18:38 and it's not the literal text of the line that matters, more its platonic existence 21:18:58 no, but, being line-based 21:19:03 What are you talking about? 21:19:07 well, it's meant to work like diff 21:19:16 lines give a good approximation to how people think of programs 21:19:21 you could do it with characters, it'd work just as well 21:19:29 Each byte added has a 128-bit ID. 21:19:30 but probably confuse people because it didn't do merges how they wanted 21:20:15 now, what's stored in the version control system are diffs, vaguely darcs-like, except that the diffs have a complete context of where they go 21:20:33 e.g. "line ab239ca0 added between line 30adb123 and line 8923ad01" 21:21:09 they don't need any context (as in unidiff context) other than that, because each line number refers to the line itself, plus its complete history, because every line belongs to the diff where it was added with complete context of where it comes from, etc. 21:22:22 wait, you have a concept of individual object history? 21:22:26 not versioning trees? 21:22:26 in order to figure out the current state of the version control system, you effectively start with nothing and replay all the diffs until you end up with the files (this is likely to be optimizable, but as-if rule; that's how it works /conceptually/) 21:22:31 congrats -- you've invented either RCS or CVS 21:22:33 and I'm not sure which 21:22:44 alise: that's the bottom level of abstraction 21:22:46 ais523: that's how darcs does it 21:22:50 (wrt the nothing) 21:22:51 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:22:55 yep, darcs was a major inspiration 21:23:01 alise: CVS is just some centralization and network crap on top of RCS. 21:23:03 although I didn't do everything exactly the same way 21:23:21 anyway, above this layer of abstraction, you can also group sets of changes into a single change that represents them all 21:23:26 Gregor: And ... multiple file support, dude. 21:23:38 that's the svn/darcs layer of abstraction if you group once (and also does multiple files) 21:23:39 alise: Mmmmm, kinda. 21:23:46 and the tag, etc, layer of abstraction if you do it twice 21:23:53 Gregor: Well, RCS works entirely on one file with no special directory for versioning. 21:23:56 So more than kinda :P 21:24:03 thus, individual object history, repo versions, and tags are all the same concept, really 21:24:09 helping to keep the command count down 21:24:56 alise: Yeah, but it didn't actually change anything intrinsic to do that, it just has per-file data, separated properly, and maintained in "modules" which are basically directories. At the actual version-control level, it's still one-file. 21:25:31 SVN has actual multi-file version control, and even that is just "give all the files the same number so people don't go batshit crazy trying to find a revision" 21:31:14 alise: I don't think ais' thing is anything like RCS or CVS 21:32:11 maybe not 21:32:13 flerh 21:33:06 in particular, both RCS and CVS work on trees of files that contain history 21:33:42 or each file contains a tree of versions of that file 21:36:04 Thanks entirely to quintopi, I have shortened Vagrant further! 21:36:07 X+=17 has become 21:36:12 X-=(X-x)//17;Y-=(Y-y)//5 21:36:32 and CVS is mostly just networked centralized storage for all those RCS files instead of storing them locally 21:39:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:39:36 ... looks like Gregor already said that though 21:40:33 ha 21:40:36 / instead of // works 21:40:51 ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py 21:40:51 1622 vagrant.py 21:42:48 apparently it's a tad slower, though 21:43:38 GreaseMonkey: what is? 21:44:00 using / instead of // for integer division 21:44:22 actually in this case it ends up as floats, it just so happens that the way i use them makes this irrelevant 21:44:28 and jesus, it's python! slow already 21:44:31 and i have just confirmed that 21:44:35 / vs // won't help that 21:44:44 microoptimising python is an amazingly silly idea 21:44:52 Isn't Python faster than Ruby or something? 21:45:04 not after YARV 21:45:09 alise: it's fast enough to play a .mod file on a 1.44GHz 32-bit single-core AMD machine at 32000Hz in stereo 21:45:11 Also, this is #esoteric. Everything that happens here is silly 21:45:12 hmm wait I guess it isn't returning a float 21:45:23 GreaseMonkey: what a useless dump of statistics 21:45:39 We should microoptimize the sample of BancSTAR code that we have 21:45:46 -!- augur has joined. 21:45:51 source: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/stuff/pymod.py.txt 21:45:52 how, if you don't know what it does? 21:46:07 GreaseMonkey: 32000 Hz = .000032 GHz, your computer could sleep for a bloody year and it'd still play that 21:46:12 There are people in the world who DO know what it does 21:46:14 its author claimed it wasn't leaking commercially sensitive information because nobody knew what it did or what the commands were 21:46:16 bancstar code starts out slow, but damn does it microoptimize well 21:46:45 There's no place where we can find out more about it? 21:47:03 alise: it has to mix 4 channels at different frequencies, it's not a .wav file silly 21:47:15 We should purchase a license from... whoever it is 21:47:29 Or pirate 21:47:41 Although the latter might be tricky 21:47:45 and it's using about 54% CPU playing cd_orbit.mod 21:48:16 0BE10000|1C505000|00000000|07F07000| 21:48:16 0BE10000|1AC06000|00000000|00000000| 21:48:21 just two lines of output 21:48:31 brb 21:48:33 pppssfxy 21:48:41 period, sample, effect info 21:49:10 freq = base_clock (about 10^9/280) / period 21:51:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:55:08 hmm, bancstar is obviously a list of opcode,arg1,arg2,arg3 21:55:44 Control structures available include the 3000 ("conditional"), 3001 ("block conditional"), and 3101 ("reverse block conditional"), as well as 8500 ("GOTO") and 8550 ("combination GOTO"). 21:55:57 (the opcode goes first btw) 21:56:06 which I already said ... d'uh 21:56:58 a bunch of "block conditional" in that one sample 21:58:18 http://www.oocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/bancstar.html 21:59:02 Does Broadway & Seymour still exist? 21:59:49 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:03:34 -!- augur has joined. 22:03:35 I think that given documentation, this bancstar thing wouldn't even be very esoteric... it's just a poor source language 22:04:21 in fact, why the heck didn't these people just write their own source language and compile it to bancstar? 22:05:00 They did. 22:05:12 hmm? 22:05:15 Indeed, BANCStar is just bytecode. 22:05:43 But the source language was crappy, so the developers just coded everything in BANCStar. 22:05:59 ok, I should rephrase that... since the real source language was so crappy, why didn't they replace the source language instead of coding in the bytecode? 22:06:39 Because they couldn't be bothered? 22:07:02 but they obviously *could* be bothered writing this awful bytecode crap :) 22:07:26 http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2001/07/16/daily41.html 22:07:35 * Sgeo attempts to follow the trail 22:07:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YPYYvZOGlU Does anyone else think this is cool? 22:09:24 http://www.linkedin.com/companies/webtone-technologies 22:09:31 there's also this: http://www.allbusiness.com/banking-finance/banking-lending-credit-services/7277371-1.html 22:10:43 Searching for WinPrism gets some book management thing 22:11:09 Yesyesyes, what of that video I linked to? 22:11:37 Fidelity Information Services still exists! 22:13:28 Searching the site for WinPrism reveals nothing 22:13:44 wealth management solutions! 22:15:12 < Gregor> In other words, we need a space-flight simulator where people write captain programs. 22:15:23 So, C-Robots, in 3D, and not just C. 22:15:38 If that's what C-Robots is, then YES! :P 22:15:50 Can we write self-replicators in it? 22:15:55 < pikhq> I had forgotten how mad this code was. <-- to what do you refer? 22:17:08 < alise_> "Like Feather!" <-- FeatherSCM! woo! 22:17:10 cpressey: SKI interpreter using lambda in C. 22:17:22 it'd be the only one i'd use. if it existed 22:18:32 < alise> microoptimising python is an amazingly silly idea <-- happens all the time here :/ 22:20:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:20:11 pikhq: i think i remember you writing that. or i;m confused. 22:20:21 cpressey: I did. 22:20:26 cpressey: And it's fucking nuts. 22:20:36 back 22:20:59 Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crobots 22:21:27 Sgeo: one can only hope that FIS have gotten rid of this crap... then again they are still marketing a MUMPS-based thingy 22:21:41 ais523: if i were to design a SCM it would only work on S-Expressions 22:21:51 They wouldn't have it in some storage facility somewhere? 22:22:18 lol, Sgeo is suddenly worried about bancstar being lost to the world 22:22:24 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon). 22:22:32 wasn't it already? 22:22:35 cpressey: SKI interpreter using lambda in C. ← Sophisticated enough to run Lazy K? 22:22:50 < olsner> but they obviously *could* be bothered writing this awful bytecode crap :) <-- THAT'S HOW IT WORKS IN DE BIZNESS WURLD 22:23:16 so they say 22:23:29 the source language was probably *terrible* and they didn't have the resources/justification to make a better one 22:23:41 ****terrible*** 22:23:47 alise, hey, nostalgia isn't a factor here 22:23:52 (the first * is the correction *) 22:24:29 Sgeo: but you're still worried about it 22:24:45 terrible, like, programming language implemented by someone with no familiarity with parsing or interpretation, theory or practice 22:24:48 cpressey: i think that it was some gui tool, i may be mistaken 22:24:52 s/interpreteation/code gen/ 22:25:01 Phantom_Hoover: It currently implements a subset of Lazy K. 22:25:02 alise: very possible 22:25:10 Phantom_Hoover: Namely, the SKI subset. 22:25:16 it was the bytecode used by a GUI code-gen tool 22:25:17 I want to program in BancSTAR! 22:25:24 but people used it directly because the code-gen tool wasn't very good 22:25:29 pikhq, and the laziness? 22:25:41 Is proper. 22:26:17 So it should be possible to add I/O? 22:27:03 It *has* I/O. 22:27:17 ... Wait, why the heck is this segfaulting? 22:27:38 well, if it was built by "gui programmers" that pretty much guarantees it was AWESOME. 22:27:44 Sgeo: they have things called BancLine and BancPac, note the spelling of 'banc' 22:28:09 Hmm 22:28:11 "Not a game, but rather a lawsuit" --TV Tropes 22:28:15 they've probably switched to Plain English now 22:28:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself). 22:28:33 Would it be possible to ask if there's any relation to BancStar, particularly the bytecodes? 22:28:37 olsner: probably just a brand name 22:28:45 Sgeo: they probably don't know it ever existed. or deny it 22:29:45 Sgeo, FFS if you want it so hard, just write something that looks identical. 22:29:57 and this TellerPlus that looks related to those BancLine/BancPac things is apparently *customizable* (in bancstar? :D) 22:30:05 But it wouldn't be genuine BancSTAR 22:30:15 Just something that fits what little we know of it 22:30:36 Use one of those fractal interpolators to infer the rest of BancSTAR 22:31:58 alise: which game? I can't visit TV Tropes because I'm at work 22:32:02 and thus, can't search it 22:32:04 Sgeo, just analyse. 22:32:21 ais523: Capcom vs. X series 22:32:26 some street fighter ripoff 22:32:29 the quote is the only amusing part 22:32:35 ah, OK 22:33:11 Numbers below 3000, or maybe 2000, might be variables 22:33:27 Wait, there are NEGATIVES? 22:33:42 credit AND debit, baby! 22:33:48 Sgeo: the text mentions a limit of 2000 variables 22:33:57 olsner, right 22:34:01 also, that the language doesn't have constants 22:34:09 so you need a spare variable to store constants in 22:34:17 Are any numbers between 2000 and 3000? 22:34:30 If not, maybe those would be meaningless 22:34:32 maybe constants are just in the code, but surrounded by if's 22:34:35 or gotos 22:34:51 How do you store constants if you can't write constants? 22:35:04 Did noöne watch that video? 22:35:11 "I really wish they made a sequel to The Matrix. It would have been awesome!" --reddit 22:35:12 presumably variables can be initialized statically, or something 22:35:17 Phantom_Hoover: it's on my todo list! 22:35:29 Phantom_Hoover: are you sure you can use a diaeresis in that context? 22:35:37 ais523: it is correct 22:35:42 it isn't noooooooooone 22:35:44 as in "noon" 22:35:45 it's no-one 22:35:47 no One 22:35:50 start of a new syllable 22:35:52 diaeresis 22:35:54 alise: according to normal pronunciation rules, yes 22:36:01 that doesn't mean the word's actually spelled like that, though 22:36:07 Phantom_Hoover that video doesn't load for me 22:36:10 ais523: err, it's orthography 22:36:14 ais523: diareses are valid everywhere 22:36:14 words tend not to be spelled phonetically in English 22:36:18 *no " " at the start 22:36:20 alise: and in reverse, too? 22:36:25 I wouldn't call Zo-e a common name 22:36:27 oh, based on this presentation I found, I get the impression that BancLine really could be the continuation of bancstar 22:36:28 ais523: it's an accent mark 22:36:42 it looks like the kind of forms that would be built by something like that 22:36:42 alise: and thus part of the spelling of a word 22:36:44 "noöne" is definitely correct. 22:36:57 if irritating 22:37:00 I mean, I accept, say, "preëmptive" because that's actually how you spell the word 22:37:03 alise, try clicking into the time bar somewhere. 22:37:05 or used to, at least 22:37:16 hey, the diaeresis mark has a name 22:37:17 trema 22:37:57 but a "you can always replace a hyphen between syllables with adjacent vowels with a diaeresis" rule doesn't seem to be correct 22:38:09 ais523: doesn't even have to be between syllables 22:38:18 although doing it everywhere it can go is annoying, it's not incorrect 22:38:22 well, you have to pronounce the two vowels separately 22:38:28 that's what a diaeresis means 22:38:37 and I find it hard to see how you could do that within a single syllable 22:38:43 er, i mean 22:38:45 you don't need a hyphen 22:38:46 I think if you were a Greek scholar you'd spell it... n/m 22:38:51 PowerShell won't let me 22:39:11 "The designated driver concept was developed in Scandinavia over several decades beginning in the 1920s" 22:39:17 Scandinavia, always inventing newer, more modern ways to be drunk. 22:39:26 cpressey: just use TeX codes for it! 22:39:29 \"e for ë 22:39:35 romanise greek text :P 22:40:45 alise, to what extent does the video not load? 22:40:56 Phantom_Hoover: it does now 22:41:34 Opine. 22:41:52 Sgeo: you know what you must do, you must aquire bancline and tellerplus and take it apart 22:42:13 Do we in fact know that those are descended from BancSTAR? 22:42:19 not yet 22:42:29 and maybe not ever 22:43:07 maybe you could just ask FIS if they know what happened to the code? 22:43:09 At some point, I'm going to write an email to someone at FIS 22:43:25 Bancstar (what is known about it) looks like good base for an esolang... 22:43:31 alise, are you OPINING? 22:45:43 it's only esoteric because so little is known about it 22:46:35 doesn't that also apply to Schrödilang? 22:47:06 a.k.a. Feather? 22:47:06 ais523: what's that? 22:47:08 cpressey: PC-BSD; pontificate 22:47:22 olsner: a joke language, I think it's on the wiki 22:47:26 alise, you call that opining? 22:47:38 the joke is that there's only one known description on a floppy disk, with a powerful magnet to erase it at random 22:47:49 so nobody knows if there are any surviving descriptions or not 22:49:07 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:51:34 hash-occurs-check 22:51:43 cpressey: what 22:51:50 Should I email World Headquarters? 22:51:53 wait, PC-BSD? 22:52:09 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:52:09 i have no feelings toward it 22:52:16 moreinformation@fisglobal.com 22:52:28 cpressey: didn't think so :) 22:52:33 alise: i was wondering if you could efficiently do occurs checks by hashing the terms somehow 22:52:34 Detroit; pontificate 22:52:50 Detroit is not nearly as cool as Windsor 22:53:03 Windsor; monoglicks? 22:53:16 Windsor: a Canadian city where you look north to see a major US city 22:53:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:54:01 no, Windsor: it's a place in Berkshire 22:54:15 cpressey: please -- stop me creating my own distro 22:54:17 cpressey: Which Windsor? There's 3 in Canada. 22:54:18 before all hell breaks loose 22:54:28 alise: 4 in the UK. 22:54:31 pikhq: the cool one where the SALT is packages 22:54:34 *packaged 22:54:39 alise: STOP 22:54:41 pikhq: the one with the castle in it 22:54:42 STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP 22:54:43 cpressey: why 22:54:52 And 23 in the US 22:54:55 alise: ... there are cooler things to do with your time 22:55:08 yeah but they're harder 22:55:13 Sorry, 24. 22:55:16 also: 22:55:19 alise: that's why there are so many damned distros 22:55:20 they don't solve my day-to-day irritation 22:55:30 cpressey: So, Windsor, Ontario. 22:55:33 cpressey: trust me, mine is nothing like others :P (I've had it planned a while) 22:55:40 no, really, nothing. 22:55:47 pikhq: yes, 22:55:49 *. 22:56:08 ais523: I thought of what a FeatherSCM would look like 22:56:22 oh dear 22:56:25 in windsor, ON, if you look north, across the detroit river, you see detroit. 22:56:47 Y'know, Detroit-Windsor is itself a very good argument for opening up the US-Canada border. 22:56:51 YakLinux ships with FeatherSCM. Film at 11 22:56:56 ais523: every change *retroactively* changes all the previous ones, because changes are in reverse: that is, each revision is an entire diff that turns the revision after it into the empty string. so you modify the previous diff so it turns the latest revision into the empty string, then the one before it to compensate, so on, forever 22:57:13 that's not all that Feather-like, really, just ridiculous 22:57:18 (Detroit & Windsor are effectively a single city, seperated by a damned border crossing on the bridge between the two halves) 22:57:19 ais523: the key is that you collapse these 22:57:21 so instead of turning into "" 22:57:24 they turn into the revision before it 22:57:41 ais523: so to revert you just run a diff 22:57:44 well, diffs 22:57:48 ais523: it is feather, it's retroactive :P 22:58:02 pikhq: but dude 22:58:04 Detroit sucks 22:58:06 is Windsor any good? 22:58:41 alise: Unlike Detroit, it has more to its economy than car manufacturing. 22:58:47 what i'm saying is 22:58:52 merging Detroit and Windsor would make Canada worse 22:58:58 for the benefit of *Detroit!* 22:59:01 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 22:59:43 alise: The border there is a bit like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Baarle-Nassau_fronti%C3%A8re_caf%C3%A9.jpg 22:59:49 This is how the rest of Canada knows Windsor: http://www.canadiandesignresource.ca/officialgallery/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/windsor_salt_canadian_design.jpg 23:00:01 ... Except with a damned customs checkpoint. 23:00:26 alise: Windsor kind of sucks too, but not anywhere near as bad as Detroit. It has some cool at the centre of its suckage. 23:00:44 cpressey: Like I said, Windsor has more to its economy than car manufacturing. 23:01:10 if k=='q': 23:01:10 q=min(P,20);L=min(L+q,300) 23:01:10 if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),300);P-=q;T() 23:01:10 continue 23:01:14 still offering prizes for golfing this 23:01:30 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:01:33 pikhq: the river is a bit wider than that i think :) 23:01:42 alise: Also, one of my esolangs was designed and written up there. 23:02:12 alise: Yes, but still. 23:02:16 i think canada is my kind of country 23:02:20 alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AmbassadorBridgesunsetting1.jpg That's the actual bridge. 23:02:36 pikhq: 's a pretty big bridge :P 23:02:45 is that ice in the water? 23:02:56 i can't see clearly 23:03:06 Yes; Detroit is fucking cold in February. 23:03:16 Erm, March. 23:04:08 alise: There's also a tunnel between the two, and a couple more bridges being built. 23:04:38 cpressey: have you ever been to winnipeg? 23:04:57 Because for some reason some 25% of trade between Canada & the US goes through Detroit-Windsor. 23:04:58 alise: Yes. In fact, I was born there. 23:05:16 cpressey: Is it, in fact, a, and I quote, "frozen shithole"? 23:05:21 and lived there for the first, er, >2/3 of my life. 23:05:53 alise: i don't know that i've ever heard that *exact* term, but it's not wholly inaccurate 23:06:12 C: 23:06:14 cpressey: Is it, in fact, a "dogshit dildo"? Is it "fucking over"? Is it Steven Stapleton's armpit? Is it a boiling pot of cranberries? 23:06:25 dogshit dillo? 23:06:33 alise: i will stick to the first term you proposed 23:06:48 PSHT NOBODY CAN APPRECIATE MY REFERENCES 23:07:05 cpressey: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Is_a_Frozen_Shithole) 23:07:09 yeah well no one's going to ever figure out mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot either. 23:07:42 possibly best if i wait til i'm home to follow that link 23:08:11 what a radical idea 23:08:58 :> 23:09:10 radish 23:09:16 no no no 23:09:17 put me 23:09:22 it's fucking RAD 23:09:44 It's rad... ish. 23:10:30 mzstorkipiwanbot: you still disagree with everything anyone says to you, right? 23:10:31 ais523: I disagree! 23:11:03 fungot: do you disagree with mzstorkipiwanbot? 23:11:04 ais523: i think now you're working on an os ( even ' kind of' proposed mean? ;p it might make sense 23:11:26 oh well, I should go home 23:11:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:12:51 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Peacearch-usside.jpg The irony is you need to go through customs if you intend to go more than 50 feet past that "gate that will never close". 23:12:59 lawl 23:13:12 pikhq: is that the border? 23:13:15 dumb question 23:13:16 of course it is 23:13:17 alise: Yes. 23:13:17 mother of common children mait 23:13:22 "Children of a common mother" is just wat 23:13:35 America, I think you need to read up on Canadian history 23:14:04 hey, another border crossing i've been through multiple times 23:14:16 As a special exception, you are permitted to go past the border crossing *there* without clearing customs. 23:15:07 However, you can't go past the nearby customs gates. 23:15:11 what format is /dev/dsp again? 23:15:17 I _will_ play Aquaria 23:15:26 8-bit unsigned PCM 23:15:40 alright 23:17:10 Sgeo: you _will_ find bancstar 23:17:18 At, uh. 8 kHz mono. 23:17:52 /dev/audio is 8-bit mu-Law at 8 kHz, BTW. 23:18:16 pikhq: behold: 23:18:25 perl -e'print pack "c*",map {$_/=100;10*sin ($_*$_)} (0..25000)' >/dev/dsp 23:18:27 olsner, yes, I will. Later 23:18:28 It sounds nice! 23:18:32 A swooping sci-fish effect. 23:18:35 yes, sci fish. 23:18:47 alise: Well, that's fun. 23:18:53 If a bit shockingly loud. 23:18:57 pikhq: Sorry. 23:19:03 You can scale it. 23:19:43 1.5 is *not* shockingly loud. 23:20:38 pikhq: Now make a song out of it. 23:23:22 #!/usr/bin/env perl 23:23:22 sub p { print pack 'c*', @_ } 23:23:22 close STDOUT; open STDOUT, '>', '/dev/dsp'; 23:23:25 There's a header for you. 23:24:23 ARGH 23:24:33 Aquaria download is 209MB 23:24:36 I have 199MB free 23:24:40 After deleting SL 23:25:45 Hmm 23:25:52 Now I seem to have plenty of space 23:25:57 mzstorkipiwanbot: ~@f={/a>100?~/a=~/a-1&"PRIVMSG mzstorkipiwanbot :@f} -- or similar 23:25:57 cpressey: I disagree! 23:26:49 cpressey: wat :P 23:26:58 alise: it'll look something like that 23:27:26 maybe #SELF can expand to the name of the bot or something 23:31:18 Taiwan's relationship with the US is so very fucked up. 23:31:29 “The act provides for Taiwan to be treated under U.S. laws the same as "foreign countries, nations, states, governments, or similar entities".” 23:31:43 Really. We say that they are an independent nation in all but name. 23:32:18 pikhq: please debug my perl >__> 23:32:35 zeroes should be silence to /dev/dsp, right? 23:32:50 alise: Not with unsigned PCM. 23:32:54 gah 23:32:55 what is it then 23:32:57 >_> 23:33:13 alise: 0x0F 23:33:17 interestingly, my sin program works just as well piped to /dev/audio 23:33:26 is mu-Law really that similar to PCM? 23:33:37 pikhq: ...why 15 23:33:46 Erm. 23:33:47 Not that. 23:33:59 a lot of my bytes seem to be getting dropped 23:34:04 sub z { my $x = shift; p (15 x $x) } 23:34:04 sub tck { p int(rand(256)) foreach 0..500 } 23:34:04 tck; 23:34:04 z(5000); 23:34:04 tck; 23:34:08 this is the same as tck;tck 23:34:10 for some reason 23:34:25 i guess it isn't silence 23:34:38 alise: /dev/dsp is like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Pcm.svg but with more bits. 23:34:57 So... the midpoint. 23:34:59 So 128? 23:35:01 Yes. 23:35:09 Now tell me why it doesn't work. 23:35:19 oh 23:35:20 it does now 23:35:21 if i use print 23:35:22 not p 23:35:27 so the packing is destroying it somehow ffff 23:35:46 And mu-Law is very close to PCM. It's PCM with a logarithmic scale instead of linear. 23:36:12 Sing 23:36:14 Sing a song 23:36:17 !haskell :t (>_>) 23:36:20 Sgeo: SHUT 23:36:51 You don't want to hear me song? 23:36:54 *sing? 23:37:13 song it 23:37:54 Torture device: Me singing the Stargate Infinity theme 23:38:13 OMG STOP STOP STOP STOP 23:39:07 also make me watch ST:V at the same time 23:39:31 ST:V isn't bad 23:39:33 AND DEBUG CORPORATE C++ 23:39:48 Sgeo, it is to me. 23:40:09 -!- augur has joined. 23:41:08 pikhq: pretty hard to get a sharp sound here 23:41:15 like a cymbal 23:41:32 alise: Well, yes. It's 8kHz. 23:42:01 pikhq: yeah but there's gotta be some sort of cymbally noise 23:42:08 not everything has to be sludge! 23:42:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:42:30 Could you do it on a phone? 23:44:30 pikhq: Yes. 23:44:42 Say "TSSSS" into the phone with a ... hiss, not a proper s. 23:48:41 How bad an idea would it be to put an installer on a remote machine (my school's machine) and run it locally? 23:49:05 Sgeo: not a bad idea at all! 23:49:16 Sgeo: i'm sure your school wouldn't mind! 23:49:33 pikhq: http://pastie.org/1206539.txt?key=rtv18vjbsp2ihxz2blygq My attempt at laying down the phat beats. 23:49:45 cpressey, sarcasm? 23:52:39 Sgeo: what's on the schoolmachine? 23:53:12 Storage space 23:53:25 What OS? 23:54:09 Some variety of Linux 23:54:52 * Sgeo creates an sdf account 23:55:20 pikhq: BTW, you know how you were talking about university financial aid sucking in the US? 23:55:31 Sgeo: the sdf admin is a huge jackass 23:55:34 as of years ago 23:55:47 o.O howso? 23:56:51 Sgeo: when someone said something about the prices for registration or something he ranted about them, uhh, i don't remember, something idiotic and insulting about McDonalds 23:57:05 worse than Theo de Raat level insults :) 23:58:32 alise: Yeah? 23:58:59 alise: BTW, that's just one of *many* things about US education that sucks. 23:59:01 pikhq: I looked it up out of curiosity and that situation definitely seems to be non-universal. At least, MIT was the first one I found giving clear info about it-- 23:59:25 alise: MIT and the Ivy Leagues are some of the *few* schools that offer decent financial aid. 23:59:27 Statistics: 58% of undergrads awarded scholarship, average $26,800 23:59:38 That is coming *from MIT*. 23:59:57 Sgeo: I guess as long as you don't have the root password you can't fuck anything up TOO badly. for some reason i was assuming it was windows