00:00:14 brb 00:00:15 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:00:52 I'm thinkin' abortion should be legal up to the age of 2. 00:01:04 -!- cpressey has joined. 00:01:38 apart from bass-ackwards religious countries <-- you do realize that by your probably strict standards that is the _majority_ of countries, right? :D 00:01:49 What is the distinction between pre-birth abortion and post-birth abortion. I can see making a distinction in the womb, at some point in the brain's development. 00:02:05 -!- cpressey has quit (Client Quit). 00:02:09 oerjan: well. 00:02:10 -!- cpressey_ has joined. 00:02:18 oerjan: sure, but not the majority of Western civilisations 00:02:18 ok better 00:02:29 by which i also basically include Japan, S. Korea and stuff :P 00:02:42 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey. 00:02:43 oerjan: also most of those countries are small and have little power. 00:03:00 oerjan: i mean, i can't imagine any country in the EU taking pro-life seriously. 00:03:07 ireland. 00:03:20 poland, possibly 00:03:21 is the vatican in the eu? 00:03:25 Gotta birth 'em to eat 'em. 00:03:25 cpressey: No. 00:03:37 no, but several catholic countries are 00:03:50 (including the two i mentioned) 00:04:00 trees have personhood 00:04:15 paper is murder! 00:04:33 Not only that, but trees are your cousins. Paper is killing your family. 00:04:41 ireland still has prohibition against abortion _in the constitution_, afair. 00:05:13 ok ireland, but ireland are fucking crazy :D 00:05:33 Yeah, who doesn't want to be part of the UK? 00:05:33 anyway what i'm saying is that you should think very hard before considering the pro-life position reasonable if you're in the US. 00:05:41 Gregor: I KNOW RIGHT 00:06:02 I formed the Reformed Tory Party of the United States just to encourage us to rejoin the UK! 00:06:16 Gregor: I approve so hard. 00:06:21 THE SUN NEVER SETS ON THE OBAMA EMPIRE 00:06:28 lol 00:07:39 OBAMEMPIRE 00:07:41 OBAMPIRE 00:07:44 OPIRE 00:07:50 The Republick of Opire 00:08:27 ok ireland, but ireland are fucking crazy :D <-- you're going to end up with No True Scotsman pretty soon :D 00:08:36 oerjan: yes well 00:08:59 i really meant "look at any country with a political climate you consider relatively sane, note how pro-life isn't taken seriously there, rinse, lather, repeat, consider biases introduced by own cultural setting" 00:09:12 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:13:40 oerjan: The "pro-lifers" *here* are a bit nuts. I can't make a judgement about those elsewhere. 00:14:08 But here, they simultaneously are opposed to abortion and in favor of the death sentence. 00:14:48 You have to give people a chance to /earn/ their death. 00:15:22 elliott: For what it's worth: I see some issues with abortion, but see *significantly more* issues with them not being legal. 00:15:45 Proper birth control should of course be heavily promoted. 00:15:50 pikhq: Out of curiosity, what issues do you see with abortion? 00:16:04 I understand it's not a particularly pleasant experience and one that should be avoided if possible, but apart from that... 00:16:06 "Currently, Polish society is one of the most pro-life in Europe." 00:16:20 oerjan: not even polse consider Polish society sane :) 00:16:22 *poles 00:16:24 *politics, whatever 00:16:36 In undergrad (?) at some point a class (?) we watched some movie (?) about an abortion clinic before it was legal ... 00:16:42 That movie made me want to end female suffrage :P 00:17:02 I think ... I THINK that it was supposed to be pro-choice. 00:17:04 Rather dangerous, unpleasant, and it goes from not a big deal ethically to "what the *fuck*?" depending on the stage of pregnancy. 00:17:56 But straight-up banning it creates even more issues and solves nothing. 00:17:57 pikhq: Yeah. I think the dangerous thing is basically personal choice, unpleasantry is... well, that or pregnancy. And yeah, there is always the debate about when it becomes able to feel pain. 00:18:24 "Feels pain" is a silly border anyway. Cows feel pain. 00:18:30 But they're sooooooo tasty. 00:18:46 pikhq: Oh, and if a pregnancy would ever result in a mother's death, I think it's a very grey area even in the later stages of pregnancy. 00:18:53 apparently the actual polish laws were made considerably stricter after the fall of communism. 00:19:01 I mean -- would you save a person or a kitten? 00:19:07 Substitute increasingly more intelligent animals for kitten, etc. 00:19:17 Personally, I feel the only way to "solve" it is, of course, to make it very unlikely that anybody would be in the position where an abortion would be an option they have to consider... 00:19:31 elliott: *Obviously* if it's a choice between infant and mother then fuck the infant. 00:19:34 ITT: Birth control. 00:19:52 pikhq: Right. Now suppose the mother is ridiculously old. (Her pregnancy defies science.) 00:20:01 Babby or dying? 00:20:08 Birth control, reducing poverty, making giving a child up to adoption *incredibly easy*, etc. 00:20:16 elliott: HARD ISSUE. 00:20:30 elliott: But I'm leaning towards babby. 00:20:40 pikhq: Conclusion: Fuck old people, they're not allowed to get pregnant until we solve mortality :P 00:20:41 How many mother-years = one baby-year? :P 00:20:45 It's too difficult 00:20:49 elliott: Hah. 00:20:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:21:21 elliott: once we solve mortality, _no one_ will be allowed to get pregnant. 00:21:35 oerjan: well until we solve scarcity. 00:21:38 "sorry, planet is full" 00:21:42 elliott: Oh, and also: I am quite against the death sentence. Unlike pro-lifers, who are pro-death in that case. :P 00:21:52 "sorry, galaxy is full". etc. 00:21:59 oerjan: and solving mortality is so damn *hard* that it is incredibly likely scarcity will be solved something like hours afterwards. 00:22:08 oerjan: That's why we spawn universes. 00:22:17 because i'm not exactly sure we humans can keep up with the universe trying to fuck with our lives :) 00:22:27 elliott: Entropy's a bitch. 00:22:36 pikhq: entropy isn't remotely the problem 00:22:38 pikhq: "out of memory, simulation aborted" 00:22:44 oerjan: :P 00:22:46 pikhq: consider a carefully-maintained computer made out of the most durable components 00:22:52 forget expense 00:23:09 pikhq: now build in some self-repairing capabilities. already it'll last *way* longer than our wetware. 00:23:23 of course entropy is something we kinda have to solve 00:23:26 * Sgeo ponders trying Opera [again] 00:23:27 elliott: Sorry, entropy is guaranteed. And if we're talking about lasting infinitely long, it *will* become a problem. 00:23:30 but we sort of have quite a few billion years to deal with that. 00:23:34 * Sgeo forgot why he ran from Opera last time 00:23:36 pikhq: yes... but let's solve this one fisrt 00:23:37 *first 00:23:49 pikhq: methinks the many-more-times intelligent us may be somewhat better at solving entropy. 00:24:26 Okay, so we're not so much talking about *solving* mortality as we are about making life less short. 00:24:35 And with any luck, making it less brutish in the deal. 00:24:45 pikhq: if we're talking about entropy, well 00:24:52 ehh 00:25:11 pikhq: i'd consider "until entropy fucks us in the ass" a 99.999% solution to mortality in the short term. 00:25:20 short and brutish, what was the third one 00:26:20 elliott: Fair enough. 00:26:32 elliott: Gives us several billion years, at least. 00:26:38 pikhq: what is rather more worrying is the possible finiteness of space. 00:26:52 thus, finite possible configurations 00:27:00 nasty was it 00:27:02 thus, a real, actual, unsolvable maximum lifespan 00:27:21 pikhq: because ofc it must at one point repeat a state. 00:28:08 elliott: At best, we'll end up having Groundhog Day. At worst, well. Big Crunch? 00:28:28 pikhq: groundhog day is so not a utopia. 00:28:38 elliott: No shit. 00:28:49 well Groundhog eon. if it can happen we're probably already in it. 00:28:52 pikhq: i also have serious problems with the typical naive idea of post-singularity life (see e.g. Prime Intellect, which is definitely a dystopia) 00:28:58 (had that idea years ago) 00:29:04 elliott: Anyways, as far as we know, the universe is expanding at an increasing rate. 00:29:07 and it scares me way more than a little bit that Sgeo considers Prime Intellect's future to be a utopia... 00:29:17 pikhq: as far as we know, everything is *moving apart* at an increasing rate 00:29:26 which doesn't really help us as far as space goes, eh? 00:29:31 elliott: And, yeah, the problem with the singularity is that after it humans are *still fucking human*. 00:29:54 pikhq: I was thinking more the absolute lack and irrelevance of personal development and achievement. 00:30:15 Also true. But we're still assholes. 00:30:55 pikhq: there is the possibility that some asocial tendencies are curable 00:31:43 pikhq: in fact i think that as far as my limited human mind can estimate -- which is *not at all* -- the perfect singularity outcome in the short term would just be that it stops you *majorly* and irreversibly hurting people. 00:31:54 especially if you can redesign humans 00:32:02 i.e. you can't stab someone to death. 00:33:54 * oerjan again considers the possibility that we are already in a post-singularity environment 00:34:26 oerjan: see The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect (I will say no more) 00:36:55 i mean, if this world is actually some transcended being's idea of a _solution_ to "the absolute lack and irrelevance of personal development and achievement" you mentioned. 00:37:01 *beings' 00:37:16 oerjan: mmhmm. See The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect. 00:37:24 * oerjan is still rooting against solipsism :/ 00:37:43 I CANNOT HEAR YOU LALALALA 00:38:23 oerjan: it totally is relevant, if you can get past the zombie rape in the first chapter :P 00:38:31 It's not rape! 00:38:43 Thank you, Sgeo, for pointing out the obvious. 00:38:55 alas i'm suffering from sever tl;dr syndrome these days. 00:38:58 The act as a whole is consented to. The torture within is very much *not* consented to at the time it is being done, even though it was agreed to beforehand. 00:38:59 *severe 00:39:03 It is very borderline. 00:39:05 Desired rape, almost. 00:39:17 oerjan: when was the last time you read a novel? :p 00:39:33 elliott: I'm going to call it "very hard-core BDSM play". 00:39:40 "Also zombies." 00:39:52 pikhq: In which pikhq stretches the power of the word "very" to its absolute limits. 00:40:04 elliott: :) 00:40:39 i don't quite recall. hm do the ed stories count? 00:40:54 pikhq: I think tvivat fbzrbar gur rdhvinyrag bs urebva nqqvpgvba ohg sbe *gurve bja oybbq*, chzcvat gurz jvgu fgrebvqf naq gura yrggvat mbzovr rwnphyngr fgneg gb *rng njnl ng gurve obql* is pretty much rape. Even if it was consented to beforehand :P 00:41:00 oerjan: yes. that's a novel. 00:41:10 then that may be it. 00:41:38 oerjan: well, think of it as Prime Intellect Stories! 00:41:42 the whole thing's ONE BIG PLOT ARC. 00:41:44 elliott: Good use of rot13. 00:42:00 pikhq: Yes, now the only force stopping oerjan instinctively decoding it is laziness. 00:42:35 well i think squeamishness plays a part too. 00:42:50 elliott: With full consent, it's *probably* not rape. 00:42:56 elliott: Just insanely freaky. 00:42:59 pikhq: ask that to Caroline-at-the-time :) 00:43:10 if she can respond, which is doubtful 00:43:26 oerjan: it is not actually written in a squeamish manner, it's a very unfetishy, dry portrayal of... well, *that*. 00:43:34 it has character relevance though! 00:49:29 The paramount of insane minimalism: http://cultofless.com/items 00:49:43 Note that that is actually much longer than the list of things that person actually owns. 00:49:48 Note the "sold" and "sell" columns. 00:50:00 "Bic Ballpoint $0 sold!" 00:50:10 You sold your Bic Ballpoint pen. Congratulations, your life is so much fucking better. 00:50:11 Moron. 00:50:20 "Digg Bottle Opener $5 keep!" 00:50:20 ... 00:51:59 -!- evincar has joined. 00:52:22 I am returned. 00:52:32 Guys, I think evincar goes to RIT. 00:52:41 He sure does. 00:52:50 I totally found this out by stalking him IRL. 00:53:11 Or by looking at my connect/disconnect message? 00:53:23 Well, your join message. Or that. 00:53:26 :P 00:53:37 Yop. 00:54:07 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:54:35 My online identity is pretty closely tied to my real one. 00:54:46 -!- catseye has joined. 00:54:56 Mine is only in name. Well, there is some outdated personal info somewhere but I think that's disappeared by now. 00:54:59 they were both kidnapped by a madman 00:55:05 I would like a greater distance, or perhaps less. 00:55:10 Half-lifes are not for me. 00:55:18 Hi catseye. 00:55:26 pikhq: catseye: Clearly you both want to know about the perfect WM design ever. 00:55:29 Well. 00:55:31 Second-perfect! 00:55:49 Shoot. 00:55:56 *BANG* 00:56:13 * oerjan again considers the possibility that we are already in a post-singularity environment 00:56:17 whatever that even means 00:56:23 evincar: But... but you're not in the Initiated Circle of Elliott's Environment Devotees. 00:56:36 elliott: thanks, but i already have my own ideas 00:56:45 catseye: BUT MINE ARE BETTER 00:56:53 catseye: And you will see that when you use Kitten 00:57:04 Admittedly I have few ideas, but. 00:59:40 hybrid windows and tiles. multiselect windows, select how they should tile together, and you can treat that as a single window. also, a tile can contain windows. 01:00:04 the last part is mainly to support having multiple virtual workspaces in a tile 01:00:18 catseye: well that's quite close to some of my ideas for my *perfect* WM 01:00:21 but perfect-but-onec 01:00:26 catseye: you know how you wanted infinite virtual desktops? 01:00:51 not infinite, just a lot -- and more important to make them easy to navigate (hard problem though, at least for me) 01:01:01 catseye: well my idea makes it infinite coolely 01:01:14 catseye: imagine a regular desktop and your taskbar below or whatever 01:01:28 but with no window entries, maybe 01:01:43 catseye: now imagine you can modifier key + scroll down to *zoom out* of this desktop 01:01:52 then, you can move your mouse around to traverse an infinite space 01:01:57 catseye: and see the windows zoomed out 01:01:57 ah, a ZUI? 01:02:03 click anywhere (there's a rectangle showing what this will zoom into) 01:02:05 and it goes back to 1:1 01:02:06 catseye: sort of 01:02:12 except zoomed-out is a distinct mode from zoomed-in 01:02:29 sort of a levelled-ZUI instead of continuous- 01:02:31 catseye: oh, and there's a key combo like OS X Expose or whatever, that just shows all the windows you have in total tiled 01:02:40 catseye: yes; you can still zoom out further though 01:02:44 for when you have 1,000 windows open :) 01:02:47 catseye: oh, and there's a key combo like OS X Expose or whatever, that just shows all the windows you have in total tiled 01:02:49 and lets you select ofc 01:02:51 which zooms in on the right place 01:02:54 that's just an idea 01:02:56 i think it could work 01:03:03 oh, and you could zoom out while dragging a window obviously 01:03:18 zooming out would be one way to navigate the whole virtual thing, i haven't thought about it 01:03:59 i mainly want the tiles so that some windows can stick around always, sanely (chat windows) 01:04:23 they could live in a smallish tile on the bottom, while everything else pans and zooms 01:04:29 catseye: anyway, my perfect-but-one-or-two design is basically just a refinement of the current crop of minimalist floating WMs :P 01:04:42 i think i might want window controls on the side 01:04:46 because of widescreens 01:05:03 also, obvious stuff like "of course the close button goes *opposite* the iconify/maximise buttons, so you don't have to worry about misclicks" 01:05:14 probably ditch window titles, don't need them 01:06:26 catseye: did you ever use wm2? 01:06:36 it's a curious little old WM. 01:06:38 ctrl+mumble+right click could pop up a "control panel" for the focused window, which shows its title, close/min/max/etc gadgets, etc 01:06:47 elliott: no, i haven'y 01:06:50 *'t 01:06:55 meh, i'll probably have some sort of window border at all times 01:07:05 just a little grey slab to the left or right 01:07:18 close on the top, iconify/maximise on the bottom 01:07:31 definitely alt+right click to resize though 01:07:36 it's horrific that that isn't in many existing WMs :) 01:07:56 catseye: http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wm2/wm2-pic.gif 01:08:00 note zany floating window decorations 01:08:31 it's notable, though, for being perhaps the only piece of software designed for minimalist usability in those days 01:08:31 Mac! 01:08:38 Sgeo: that has nothing to do with macs at all? 01:08:45 01:08:53 no seriously explain. 01:09:09 Although the ... title stripes look vaguely old mac like 01:09:22 ...yeah, they're grey and have a square. 01:09:25 >_< 01:09:28 yeah i was wondering the date based on nedit and xv being the apps... 01:09:41 people still use nedit :P 01:09:59 do people still use xv?? 01:10:05 catseye: it was last released 1997 btw 01:10:07 also i doubt it 01:10:10 well it's in the evilwm screenshot, but 01:10:24 catseye: the guy still uses wmx, which is wm2 + virtual desktops + xft + other violations of his zealot philosophy he originally typed out :) 01:10:29 uses/maintains 01:10:52 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Wm2.png more recent screenshot from some wikipedian, this one has *gtk1 mozilla* in it! 01:10:53 and checkerboard! 01:11:47 i may (or may not) adopt some sort of vertical-menu-taskbar approach a la nextstep. 01:11:52 dunno. perhaps not 01:13:49 catseye: am i young -- i had no idea what xv actually did until now 01:13:55 apart from it being image-related 01:15:07 it was the first piece of unix-based graphics software i ever encountered. am i old? 01:15:20 yes. 01:15:24 well no not that old :) 01:15:38 catseye: does it really do its own widgets? :p 01:15:43 IT WAS RUNNING ON A REAL X-TERMINAL... 01:15:45 looks like vms. apparently it ran on vms too 01:15:54 wait not vms 01:15:56 catseye: ok you're old 01:16:00 THIS WAS WHEN I WAS PROGRAMMING IN PL/I! 01:16:02 exceedingly old 01:16:07 guy came by today 01:16:09 looking for a pl/i channel 01:16:11 he missed you 01:16:12 what a SHAME 01:16:14 yeah i saw that. 01:16:19 tickled pink. 01:16:47 the *one* chance i get to use that knowledge... 01:16:57 oh, ha, like i retained any of it. 01:16:59 he'll be around freenode, keep whoising >:) 01:17:05 i think you can set up a reminder on freenode dunno :P 01:17:20 things i learned from irregular webcomic today: spirit's sister rover is still fully operational! wtf! 01:17:26 Opportunity 01:17:33 all i really remember is that it is a brutal language. structures are defined by indentation, and there are no types (just some variables are "like" other variables.) 01:17:39 "But Spirit wasn't the only part of the 2003 Mars Exploration Rover Mission. The mission had two Mars rovers. Spirit's twin rover, Opportunity, landed on Mars 21 days after Spirit, on 25 January, 2004. 01:17:40 And, as of today, Opportunity is still fully operational. 01:17:40 It continues to travel across the surface of Mars, seeing new and previously unexplored Martian terrain, investigating the soil and rocks, taking pictures, making measurements, and communicating all of this valuable information back to us on Earth. For the past two Earth years it has been driving, slowly, towards the large crater known as Endeavour, making scientific measurements along the way. Barring disaster, it should reach Endeavour some tim 01:17:41 e in the next few months." 01:18:08 oh nice pl/i is pronounced "p l one" 01:18:16 gotta love single-digit roman numerals 01:18:23 yep 01:18:27 programming language one (as in the one and only?) 01:18:35 the first REAL programming language YAR 01:18:37 *YARR 01:18:37 as in Ubuntu One 01:18:43 Ubuntu I 01:18:44 iBuntu 01:18:50 There Can Be Only ok nevermind 01:18:52 iBuntu. Do youBuntu? 01:18:57 -- tv ad in a few years time 01:19:03 oh dear lord 01:19:07 Find out what you'llBuntu at ibuntu.com. 01:19:20 wasn't pl/i the one with something like a hundred defined passes of the compiler, with each pass always passing on its garbled impression of the code from the previous pass rather than aborting? 01:19:36 [woman] "iBuntu!" 01:19:39 olsner: it could well be. it had that feel. 01:19:39 [man] "*i*Buntu!" 01:19:45 [couple] "weBuntu!" 01:19:50 [crowd] "everyoneBuntu!" 01:19:55 olsner: it did have macros defined at the AST-level, so... 01:20:10 [woman] "Find out why people are saying that theyBuntu... and maybe you'll be saying it too." 01:20:21 [crowd] "iBuntu at iBuntu.com!" 01:20:23 I seem to recall a fairly recent horror-story featuring PL/I 01:20:26 "From Canonical." 01:20:37 elliott: please do not let any of them see this. 01:20:54 catseye: i will attempt to cause clog to erase the previous lines. 01:20:55 * Sgeo will pastie it and paste into #ubuntu (not really) 01:20:58 clog: NOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOP 01:21:00 clog: NOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOP 01:21:00 clog: NOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOP 01:21:05 there, that should do it 01:21:33 ubuntu two is gonna be so ubuntu 01:21:38 it'll fuck you in the ass. the true meaning of ubuntu 01:21:45 ("humanity to others" is a very... loose translation) 01:21:52 giving your "humanity" to others 01:21:57 "giving" 01:25:40 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]). 01:26:20 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:30:14 * catseye boots up TortoiseShell 01:31:05 Super Mario Brothers: The Movie: The Game 01:32:35 it would be kind of like that "Pac Land" game 01:33:02 where Pacman has ARMS and LEGS 01:33:04 o.O 01:33:20 >U< 01:41:43 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:42:00 -!- augur has joined. 01:45:55 Gregor: So, we're seeking to evolve people into dinosaurs? 01:46:10 Always. 01:46:21 what else would we be seeking? 01:46:54 AT&T is already a good approximation 01:47:02 Granted, that's *multiple* people 01:47:11 But it simulates the sluggish CNS rather well. 01:47:54 Maaaan 01:47:55 -!- boscop has left (?). 01:47:56 This game is HARD 01:48:15 Gregor: I have yet to try it 01:48:29 Now that the protagonist is Gregor, I am somewhat averse 01:48:44 Please tell me it is actually "chibi Gregor" 01:49:01 It's a tiny little walking guy, which I put a hat and tie on to make be me. 01:49:10 Oh okay. That's not so bad. 01:49:42 Also, I only have it as a /game/ on my system :P 01:49:49 It was mainly the whole "bookmarklet" technology which has scared me away from trying it. 01:49:49 I haven't uploaded the game components yet. 01:50:00 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:50:02 All it does is add two script tags to the current page. 01:51:12 ok, figured it out. now, where to try... 01:51:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/ 01:51:51 * Sgeo will be disconnecting from IRC ninish 01:52:44 I tried sourceforge.net. It was quite amusing. 01:52:55 Especially after I clicked "WebPlat!" a second time 01:57:04 Wait, this "bookmarklet" thing though... 01:57:15 Bye 01:57:33 BYE SGEO 01:59:44 OK, I added the first "game" version of WebPlat. 01:59:47 Collect the images! 01:59:53 (Not yet uploaded :P ) 02:00:31 These JS bookmarklets, could they inject Ajax calls into a page? I can't see why not. 02:01:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:01:43 Most certainly. 02:02:03 I should test WebPlat on IE :) 02:03:45 -!- augur has joined. 02:03:46 It's easy to win on Google :P 02:03:53 Now, the real challenge...FACEBOOK 02:04:11 "Armillaria hinnulea... are edible, but can be easily confused with poisonous Galerina species, which can grow side-by-side with Armillaria." 02:04:24 to whoever was saying MUSHROOMS N.P. 02:04:43 Images remaining:61 02:05:13 OMGOMGOMG 02:05:16 FACEBOOK IS PERFECT 8-D 02:05:26 (Note: it does not display perfectly, it is perfect for this game) 02:06:10 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:06:30 -!- augur has joined. 02:06:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:07:25 WOW, IE is... so not even there. 02:07:25 -!- augur has joined. 02:08:03 There's no "Bookmarks". Instead you have a "Favorites Center". 02:09:39 I srsly cannot create a bookmark manually. 02:09:46 Bleh, only got 28/33 on Facebook :P 02:09:55 * Gregor gives Wikipedia another go. 02:10:13 I can still the JS in the URL bar, and Chibi Gregor appears... 02:10:16 *stick 02:11:02 AS IF BY MAGICK 02:11:23 How do you collect images, exactly? 02:13:09 How to do it: Bookmark anything else. Open "Organize Favorites". Select the link you bookmarked, right-click, "Properties". Edit URL to be that text in the textbox. CAVEAT: STILL DOES NOT WORK. 02:13:12 Apparently by not being on a site with annoying divs. 02:13:21 Chibi-Gregor appears, but does not respond to input. 02:13:54 FUCK DIVS 02:14:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:14:32 pikhq: Specifically? 02:15:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:16:04 www.dresdencodak.com 02:16:08 SO MANY DIVS 02:17:05 I can't even load it. 02:17:15 I can if I don't misspell though. 02:17:40 Hah 02:17:43 That is some crazy divs 02:17:47 Yup.\ 02:18:50 Something is all wrong with my image counting ... 02:18:55 Images collected:51 02:18:56 Images remaining:-1 02:19:16 halp 02:19:23 catseye: ? 02:19:41 * catseye flails arms outstretched in front 02:19:55 No worries, just give me some moments. 02:21:52 Fixt image counting :P 02:22:02 Still can't win at Wikipedia though. 02:23:51 Images collected:7 02:23:52 Images remaining:10 02:23:52 :( 02:24:06 You'd THINK that part would be simple. 02:24:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:25:12 ok so yesterday FF *.10 became available. now FF *.11 is available. SCRAMBLEFIXCODE. 02:25:55 I win at Spamusers! 02:26:05 -!- augur_ has joined. 02:27:11 catseye: you're still using FF? 02:27:30 Mathnerd314: hell, just a moment ago I was using *IE* :) 02:27:48 Mathnerd314: I'm curious, what do you mean by "still"? 02:28:24 Is Firefox now obsolete? Am I, as a rat, obligated to desert this sinking ship? 02:28:47 well, FF is obsolete. Just checkout the beta 04:27:00 -!- clog has joined. 04:27:00 -!- clog has joined. 04:27:02 (note surprise here that it doesn't TELL me "hey, um: mime type?") 04:27:06 clog: HELLO! 04:27:11 catseye: Still. FIX IT ITS A BAD IDEA. 04:27:11 clog: WELCOME, our friend! 04:27:20 clog: Will you PLEASE not talk about [X]HTML? 04:27:28 clog would never talk about XHTML. 04:27:29 catseye: It is *technically* valid to send out "HTML compatible" XHTML as application/html. 04:27:33 catseye: Just a bad idea. 04:27:34 html is a bad idea 04:27:40 pikhq: I'll... see what I can do. It's not a high priority until something looks atrocious. 04:27:42 we should all use sexps 04:27:50 catseye: "HTML compatible" meaning it uses *absolutely no* XHTML-specific features. 04:28:07 catseye: And if you do that, there is no point in using XHTML at all. 04:28:17 catseye: So. FIX IT NAO 04:28:36 catseye: Or else I will sentence you to 2 months writing a tag soup parser. 04:29:22 pikhq: DEAR YOU: STOP BEING A ZEALOT. WE GET THE POINT. OR I'LL SENTENCE YOU TO BE EHIRD/ALISE/ELLIOTT FOR THREE MONTHS. 04:29:52 Gregor: If you're not fixing it then I'm not done. 04:29:59 THAT FIRST BIT WAS SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE A LETTER BUT IT CAME OUT WEIRD, SO IGNORE IT. 04:30:01 I LOVE CAPS. 04:30:05 oh lawd 04:30:18 if I try codu.org/test.xhtml in IE, it prompts me to save it to disk 04:30:31 catseye: Yes, because IE doesn't handle XHTML at all. 04:30:38 at all? 04:30:54 catseye: And sending XHTML as application/html only works on IE at all through its tag soup parser. 04:31:01 bsmntbombdood: At all. 04:31:10 bsmntbombdood: Some versions will show the parse tree of the XML. 04:31:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:31:28 if I tell it "open it" it asks me "OMG you are running something you found on the INTERNET!" and then opens it in Firefox. 04:32:30 that's funny 04:32:39 bsmntbombdood: Oh. IE9 beta supports XHTML. 04:33:41 IE9 supports EVERYTHING. 04:33:47 IE9 is legitimately an OK browser. 04:34:08 IE9 will probably run webplat, which is what we're all supposed to be talking about ;) 04:34:18 And SVG... And HTML5 stuff... 04:34:49 It's actually fixed most of the problems of IE that make web developers angry. 04:34:57 internet explorer doesn't do svg? 04:35:03 bsmntbombdood: Nope! 04:35:06 good god 04:35:30 Internet Explorer didn't handle PNG fully until *this year*. 04:35:41 Erm, *last* year. 04:35:54 (previously, it had broken transparency support. Less broken in IE7.) 04:36:40 quintopia: While we're at it, have any game ideas? I made things more modular so I can inject new games semi-easily. 04:37:08 what what 04:37:09 oh 04:37:47 idea: map a key so that standing on a link and pressing that key goes to that link 04:38:34 i can't imagine why people would use it 04:39:10 quintopia: I can do that easily enough, it just takes a bit of effort to load the character on the other side of that link :P 04:39:14 Which is why I've punted on it thusfar. 04:40:44 then don't worry about loading it on the other side 04:40:48 just go to the link 04:40:49 * quintopia shrugs 04:41:17 'snot like it's difficult to click the bookmark again 04:41:18 I LOVE CAPS. <-- not just hats? 04:41:36 oerjan: Boo. Hiss. 04:41:55 quintopia: That doesn't help the "you're adventuring" aspect much :P 04:41:59 we call him "oerjan of the nondeterministic lexicon" 04:42:52 Gregor: it's a prototype :D 04:43:23 Gregor: Seriously though, XHTML-as-HTML is about as ignorant and redneck as it's possible to be while still knowing what XHTML is. Make it STAWP. 04:43:55 an easy enough way to make the character appear on the other side would be replacing all the URLs on the page with one that loads the page via codu... yes? 04:44:11 or not the actual URLs, but the URL it sends you to when you hit that key 04:44:14 yeah that'd be better 04:44:48 Interestingly, if I force application/xml+xhtml, nothing breaks except the background image. Which is defined in CSS. So I have no idea why that breaks. 04:45:07 catseye: XHTML has a different DOM than HTML. 04:45:30 Doing this can *also* break Javascript. 04:45:44 come to think of it, wouldn't it be better if all this happened via codu pages like codu.org/webplat/play.html?url=yoururlhere 04:46:37 ururlhere 04:46:52 no, we don't speak of ur-URLs here 04:47:01 udont? 04:47:08 kthen. 04:48:28 Gregor: See that: your CSS might not work on XHTML! 04:52:29 * Gregor breaks the bookmarklet again :P 04:52:35 It's case sensitive in XHTML. 04:52:51 If I convert the CSS element selectors to all lowercase, it looks fine again. 04:52:56 Yeah, XHTML is case sensitive as well. 04:53:26 Now, webplat presents a menu of games! 04:53:31 Of which there is of course only one option! 04:53:31 BUT STILL! 04:53:34 ... MENU! 04:54:23 Meanwhilst, Final Fantasy! 04:54:31 (Meanwhilst? Is that a word? It should be.) 04:54:31 It seems I broke it! Hoopla! 04:55:52 Meanwhile, people in the 21st century are using the word "meanwhile" and sending XHTML as HTML! 04:56:33 Gregor: Do you use gets? 04:56:51 (that is, char *gets(char *s);) 04:56:53 and back at the ranch, a gang of zebras stars in a sylvester stallone western! 04:57:08 pikhq: I modified my GCC so it wouldn't give me a warning about gets, JUST so I could use it! 04:57:17 Gregor: So you're consistent. 04:57:39 "I do stupid, retarded things that you have to be smart to do out of SPITE! MWAHAHAHA." 04:58:18 And YOU'RE comparing using a hideously insecure function to potential rendering issues! Which I have neither committed to fixing nor committed to not fixing, merely not committed to fixing at the moment! YEAH. 04:59:17 schrödinger's bugfix 04:59:30 Gregor: It's still dumb. 05:00:59 "I have very strong opinions and everyone who doesn't like them is an idiot." 05:01:32 where'd i leave my matches... 05:01:48 quintopia: Technical issue -- there is, in fact, a RIGHT and a WRONG. 05:01:48 I'm half-considering serving all my xhtml as application/xml+xhtml and letting IE users upgrade or suffer. 05:02:03 And it is WRONG to serve XHTML as application/html. 05:02:15 quintopia: Hey! I want to see a hat DRAMATICALLY SPLAYED BY A CORPSE. ... of me? 05:02:40 quintopia: That I know not how to argue as anything but a zealot is beside the point. 05:02:44 :P 05:03:00 pikhq: if there are issues with my last statement, it is because it was intentionally hyperbolic. hence, why i'm looking for my strawman-burning matches 05:03:19 quintopia: Oooh, I love strawmen! 05:03:41 Gregor: PATIENCE PADAWAN 05:03:43 Serving XHTML as application/html is raping babies. Would *you* rape babies! (only thing I love more is non sequiturs) 05:03:47 let the artist work 05:03:58 * Gregor lets the artist work :P 05:04:11 ... And quite amusingly, that last sentence is a command, not a question. 05:04:21 So, I just requested that everyone here rape babies. 05:04:23 Go me! 05:04:26 brb 05:04:48 wait, how many babies? 05:04:59 Unspecified amount. 05:05:12 If I even knew what a
tag WAS, that might help me give it a more reasonable bounding box ... 05:05:14 I think I'm going to have to limit it to the set of naturals, though. 05:06:03 Nay, the integers. 05:06:30 Doomsday Device 05:06:37 <3 xkcd 05:06:39 i think naturals make more sense 05:06:45 how does one rape negative babies? 05:06:51 Not my problem! 05:07:56 Someone in my class is confused by XML. He doesn't know why anyone would choose to use it 05:08:20 Sgeo: most sane people wonder the same thing 05:08:24 Sgeo: it's like choosing to drive on the right-hand side of the road 05:08:42 You don't do it because it's the prettier side of the road or anything 05:09:08 Sgeo: You should avoid XML unless you need to interoperate with something that uses XML. 05:13:17 Gregor, http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5700495 05:13:52 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:20:59 errrr whoops... 05:21:06 quintopia: ? 05:21:07 * quintopia just accidentally quit ff instead of closing a window 05:21:20 oh yeah gregor. i just made a gstander 05:21:31 for standing still without looking like you want to take a shit 05:21:40 Yes :P 05:25:06 obtw. you may have to make all the sprites taller and wider to keep your code simple, because jumping and dying require taller and wider sprites 05:25:27 i'll let you know exactly how many rows and columns to add to which borders 05:25:38 because i cba to do it myself 05:28:33 Okidoke. 05:29:21 -!- catseye has joined. 05:30:01 although, your code is going to have to be aware of the sprites' size changes anyway. adaptive bounding boxes are best... 05:30:07 i'll let you work it out. 05:30:15 * quintopia goes back to spiriting 05:37:40 quintopia: Could you at least send me the standing one so I can quickfix that? :P 05:38:30 aye 05:39:50 http://imgur.com/anCv5 05:42:13 http://imgur.com/PGhIz sorry to be a perfectionist, but the mouth was the wrong color on that one.... 05:42:27 and probably is the wrong color on all the runners... :/ 05:42:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:42:48 I have a mouth??? 05:42:50 you can't see it at scale, but it bugged me enough zoomed in to edit 05:43:36 do you seriously have long blonde hair dude? 05:43:49 Yup. 05:43:57 That's why I made this character me :P 05:44:14 can i see you wearing this hat pleeeeeeease? 05:44:34 http://codu.org/hats/SteelHomburg-med.jpg 05:44:47 That's not that hat, but in the pic of me I have with that hat, my hair is up :P 05:44:57 ah 05:44:57 http://codu.org/hats/Tyrolean-med.jpg 05:45:15 how many hats have thee? 05:45:16 Quite a nice hat. 05:45:20 http://codu.org/hats.php 05:45:27 so that's exhaustive? 05:45:36 or at least exhausting. 05:45:58 Not actually exhaustive, I have some new ones I haven't added yet. 05:46:04 Quite a few actually, I need to get to that >_> 05:46:04 needs more jester hat 05:46:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:46:28 i only have like three non-cap hats >> 05:46:39 I have no hat. 05:46:56 Nor do I have long hair any longer. 05:47:08 if you did, it would be longer hair 05:47:25 I don't think I have many hat 05:47:26 hats 05:47:35 One from Disney World from when I was a kid 05:47:36 I listen to "Men Without Hats" 05:47:41 Battery powered thingy 05:47:49 And... that's it, I think 05:47:57 the safety dance guys? 05:48:00 I'll have to check 05:50:04 hat 1: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v374/158/27/12807307/n12807307_34726356_576.jpg 05:50:13 (indiana jones fedora thing) 05:51:12 Having the jumping animation would definitely be a plus X-D 05:51:18 BUT for the moment this is an improvement. 05:52:28 hat 2: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v11/101/94/12805677/n12805677_5114828_2108.jpg (only used on sep 19 and occasionally oct 31) 05:55:15 quintopia: By the way, these pixel-art running guy images are SOOO PERFECT for this. 05:56:01 hat3: http://k1.cdn.okcimg.com/php/load_okc_image.php/images/16/150x150/558x800/28x43/178x193/0/1179623903808528596.jpeg 05:56:06 * quintopia goes back to jumping man now 05:56:44 By the way, if possible jumper should have both a "jumping" and "falling" image. 05:57:28 there will be more than just jumping and falling sir 05:57:39 Ooh la la 06:02:28 oh my goodness 06:02:54 um, anyone want to fly to vegas for next to nothing? 06:03:09 Not desperately. 06:05:42 meh, i think it's a facebook scam anyway 06:05:53 back to business 06:06:32 -!- sftp has joined. 06:10:48 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:11:31 -!- sftp has joined. 06:13:02 OK, wtf. Image caching fail. 06:13:07 It's redownloading images. A lot. 06:15:51 okay so i couldn't make an archive for some damn reason 06:15:52 (Or at least, so indicates Firebug) 06:15:55 http://imgur.com/bhtND&RjMf9&qvOcx 06:16:08 the one with the flattened tie is jumping up 06:16:18 the other two are for falling (alternate rapidly) 06:16:39 hold tight and i'll make the special double jump sequence 06:17:06 Oooooh! 06:17:49 I should set up TrueCrypt at some point 06:18:04 Unless the BitLocker thing's available to Home Premium users 06:19:06 doesn't truecrypt have some really weird license? 06:19:35 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 06:19:40 gregor: aren't you supposed to load all the images when the page/script loads into an array? i used js once for a picture gallery thing and that kept them cached. 06:19:40 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:20:01 That's what I'm doing. 06:20:15 Apparently if you just bang the same .src into an image over and over again, it'll reload even if it's cached :P 06:20:23 Have to make sure to only request a change when there's a change :P 06:20:46 imgur appears to have un-transparentized those. 06:20:52 lame 06:21:25 tar + filebin = so much more reliable :P 06:21:36 01:15 < quintopia> okay so i couldn't make an archive for some damn reason 06:22:41 okay, apparently, it successfully made an archive 06:22:49 but didn't give me any user feedback on success 06:22:58 and this is the only reason i fucking use GUIs 06:23:00 alright one sec 06:23:37 http://filebin.ca/yxuzq/jumperl.png.tar.gz 06:24:08 UNIX 101: No news is good news 06:24:35 Uhhhhh 06:24:39 These have no transparency either. 06:24:39 yep. back when programs were designed to talk to other programs 06:24:51 then it's a problem on my end 06:24:55 what color is the bg? 06:25:01 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 06:27:21 Black. 06:27:32 If it wasn't, it'd be easy to fix, but it's ambiguous with the shoes ... 06:27:53 If the shoes are the same as in stander, I can fix it. 06:29:40 In fallerl0 they're obviously not though >_> 06:30:47 open it in an editor and see if there are multiple layers 06:31:03 i'm pretty sure there's a background layer that you can just delete 06:34:28 Only one layer for me. 06:34:35 (Do .pngs even support layers?) 06:34:54 pngs support everything 06:35:02 but layers may be application specific 06:35:58 Hrm ... his jumping looks ... kinda stiff. 06:36:15 The running looks good, but the jump just looks unnatural. 06:37:01 Not that I have any suggested fix mind you. 06:39:01 i have one 06:39:11 but first i need to fix transparency on this thing 06:41:32 -!- augur_ has joined. 06:42:02 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 06:42:32 -!- augur has changed nick to Guest14855. 06:42:53 -!- Guest14855 has changed nick to augur. 06:43:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 06:44:03 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:46:36 http://filebin.ca/nyfpq/gjumperl0.png.tar.gz 06:46:44 alright, i coaxed the background to white 06:46:49 you can delete it 06:46:53 put it in, let me see 06:48:36 -!- cheater99 has joined. 06:50:30 hi dur 06:51:21 To be clear, this is actually jumper0, faller0 and faller1, yes? 06:52:21 yeah, you can figure out which one was which 06:56:17 OK, try it now. 06:56:27 Jumping looks better, falling is still kinda weird IMHO. 06:58:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:59:05 lololol 06:59:50 okay, it broken naow? 06:59:57 ? 06:59:59 Shouldn't be. 07:00:11 * Gregor tests with production version. 07:00:19 E_WORKSFORME 07:00:27 hrm 07:00:59 well, the menu pops up, i pick the game, and then...no dude. 07:01:07 :( 07:01:15 It might take an obscene amount of time to load :P 07:01:21 What browser? (Remind me ...) 07:01:24 ff 07:01:33 Odd 07:02:17 BTW, why did you make it a guy with long blond hair if you didn't know I had long blond hair? X-D 07:02:38 same thing happens on other pages 07:02:45 Anyway, I've no time to debug right now, need to sleep. If it magically starts working for you, hoopla? 07:02:48 it wasn't suppsoed to be a guy.... 07:03:17 doubt it'll start working 07:03:23 i'll do the reading i need to do 07:03:26 nightnight 07:03:41 Ahhhh X-D 07:03:48 Well I adjusted it into a guy so bully for me :P 07:04:08 I COULD STILL PUT BOOBS ON IT 07:04:46 okay but srsly. let me know when you get it working 07:04:47 wait 07:04:50 one sec 07:05:29 Is there anything in the JavaScript console? 07:05:41 i'm getting errors about charCode of keyup event being meaningless 07:05:49 and so on for all keys 07:05:57 *key events 07:06:22 That's fine, that's just jQuery being jQuery. Should only be concerned about actual errors. 07:06:32 OH SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 07:06:35 I know the problem X-D 07:07:02 GOOD CUZ I WANNA GET BACK TO MY EPIC HIPTHRUSTING 07:07:26 Testing with http://localhost/ = I R retard. 07:07:33 ahahahaha 07:07:39 Anyway, refresh and try again :P 07:08:31 while you're testing, try tapping left and right once 07:08:42 see if it amuses you 07:08:46 the epicness of the hipthrust 07:09:51 oh, hmm, the little changes that happen when he's falling don't show up under the big motion of the falling 07:09:54 i can fix 07:09:58 ...tomorrow 07:13:05 quintopia: It works really well if you're falling far enough that you're scrolling with the fall, thereby keeping him in place. 07:16:43 haha 07:16:49 if you're falling that far... 07:16:52 you're dead 07:16:58 i'll make it more canabalty 07:17:28 (aka, leaning back and kicking to maintain balance in midair) 07:20:55 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:26:52 I WIN AT WIKIPEDIA! 07:27:04 And now I really REALLY need to sleep X-D 07:27:16 woo 07:27:18 nightnight 07:40:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 07:46:19 gregor: need to cycle through falling AND running images faster. the former looks more like shufflesliding than walking 07:58:15 From: Mentifex , Newsgroups: comp.sys.super,comp.lang.forth,comp.lang.javascript,alt.folklore.computers, Subject: Inching closer on the Singularity Clock. 07:58:49 "Greeting to all Singularitarians. The Singularity is an event brought to you free-of-charge and open-source by Project Mentifex, which has today updated the free open-source AI Mind in JavaScript for Microsoft Internet Explorer at http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html --" 07:58:52 See, it cometh! 07:59:55 You can write in "tom writes jokes", "ben writes books", "jerry writes rants", "ben writes articles", "will write poems", and then say "ben writes" and it will output "BEN WRITES BOOKS". 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:10 A thinking machine! What will they invent next?! 08:00:24 hee 08:00:51 they might invent the irrational logic device next? 08:01:00 the infinite improbability computer? 08:03:12 doesn't work for me 08:05:44 Well, are you using IE? 08:06:41 It's not as interesting as older versions of the Mind, which could spew out unlimited amounts of ungrammatic nonsense about GOD doing THIS and THAT. 08:53:10 -!- tombom has joined. 10:03:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:04:13 -!- augur_ has joined. 10:06:36 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 11:00:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:24:51 -!- jingminglang has joined. 11:25:19 -!- jingminglang has left (?). 11:45:40 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:26:30 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 13:53:43 Hee, they finally installed that Condor thing -- http://www.cs.wisc.edu/condor/ -- for doing parallel stuff on idle workstations. Nifty. 14:05:09 -!- catseye has joined. 14:07:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:31:00 -!- augur has joined. 14:31:44 ugh, DHCP has suddenly stopped working here at the University on my laptop 14:31:53 it was working yesterday, no relevant software updates since 14:31:59 so I think something may be wrong with the routers 14:32:00 fizzie: Condor is a bit of a pain to deal with. 14:32:32 fizzie: Iiit has its own libc. Need I say more? 14:34:39 Fortunately "dealing" with it is (at least partially) someone else's problem; though I have to say I haven't yet tried to actually use it. 14:34:51 This should be a relatively homogenous environment for it, I think. 14:35:28 It actually works reasonably well in non-homogenous environments. It's just a pain to roll out. 14:35:55 Wonder if I've still got the all-VMs Condor cluster here. 14:38:28 Well, that's good: since rolling-out and maintaining it is the part that is done by others. 14:38:43 Yup. 14:48:16 Aaand there's more IPv4 space than there was yesterday. 14:48:34 Interop handed their class A back to the free pool. 14:48:44 One more month! 14:55:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:00:28 pikhq: how much of it did they keep? 15:02:16 ais523: None of the class A. They switched to a smaller allocation of I don't know what. 15:02:41 But given that they're an ISP, I'm going with "still a fuckton." 15:10:19 -!- ais523_ has joined. 15:11:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 15:11:23 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 15:32:02 -!- Zuu has joined. 15:46:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:59:08 -!- cpressey has joined. 16:08:45 She is now trying to teach the basics of HTML 16:08:56 Or well, skim them 16:09:13 It occurs to me that it scares me that there are people in this class with no knowledge of HTML 16:10:05 ais523, check with wireshark? 16:10:10 (if it is still broken) 16:11:37 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:13:29 The whole CGI h1() thing reminds me of Seaside's painting stuff 16:14:09 -!- webquint has joined. 16:15:30 Maybe people in the game progamming course will be more competent 16:16:00 quintopia: Still waitin' on ka-splat me :P 16:16:39 -!- atrapado has joined. 16:17:40 to whomever guessed that Plato's camera was a reference to the allegory of the cave (oerjan?), it was actually a reference to Plato's Heaven 16:17:52 The sttudents in this class are morons, the professor is clueless (not as clueless as the students) 16:18:25 Just argued with a student that the reason his index.html was giving 500 was because he was insisting on keeping it in cgi-bin. Finally got him to move it out, it worked 16:24:47 gregor: not while I'm in class kthx 16:25:34 I sped up running and falling. They're ~11fps instead of ~8fps now. 16:29:55 ZOMGSICLES! 16:29:59 Facebook works totally correctly now! 16:30:30 "A little more secure is the POST method" 16:30:51 At least she is correctly stating to prefer POST... although it's a bit of a simplification to say that 16:31:07 Maybe her "It's more secure" thing is just one huge deliberate oversimplification 16:32:33 Well, except that newly-loaded elements don't appear at all >_> 16:32:37 Still, pretty good :P 16:32:58 GET is better in some situations, but choosing POST for security is like obfuscating your encryption algorithm... 16:33:44 Well, if you don't know how to choose, which these students never will, then POST is probably better 16:35:31
16:35:34 * Sgeo wtfs 16:38:29 which students? 16:38:37 The other students in the class 16:38:45 I sped up running and falling. They're ~11fps instead of ~8fps now. <-- in what? 16:38:57 Vorpal: http://codu.org/webplat/ 16:39:03 THE GREATEST THING EVER 16:39:31 oh you changed icon since before 16:40:34 Gregor, I click the link to play it on the current page and it just says "Which game would you like to play? [button titled "Image collection"] at the top 16:40:35 then nothing 16:40:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:41:02 Vorpal: What browser? 16:41:59 Gregor, firefox 16:42:01 brb phone 16:42:19 Vorpal: That's weird, it hasn't had any problems on Firefox since ... ever :P 16:42:31 lol in chromium, the link just displays the source code 16:43:15 Not helping: The sound of drilling or jackhammers or whatever outside 16:44:54 webquint: ??? 16:47:37 that's what I said! "???" 16:54:55 -!- elliott has joined. 16:55:33 Bye all 16:55:38 Gregor, hm. 16:55:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:56:32 Gregor, strange, now it works 16:57:13 bai 16:58:18 20:29:22 pikhq: DEAR YOU: STOP BEING A ZEALOT. WE GET THE POINT. OR I'LL SENTENCE YOU TO BE EHIRD/ALISE/ELLIOTT FOR THREE MONTHS. 16:58:19 20:29:52 Gregor: If you're not fixing it then I'm not done. 16:58:30 at least i'm only a zealot about actually important things :-P 16:58:44 Gregor, why can't I collect the wikipedia logo on en.wikipedia.org ? 17:00:02 Vorpal: it's actually a background image. 17:00:20 elliott, oh, heh 17:00:47 You can collect it on www.wikipedia.org :P 17:00:52 Only actual tags are collectable. 17:02:01 -!- webquint has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:02:33 Gregor, on en.wikipedia.org it seems very tricky to collect both of those images down at the bottom 17:02:44 I've done it :P 17:02:46 Therefore it's possible :P 17:03:26 Gregor: Totally gimme the bookmarklet URL or die. 17:03:44 elliott: http://codu.org/webplat/ it's in an input box now 17:03:48 JUST FOR YOU 17:03:57 Gregor: YAY IT'S LIKE THE DAY I GOT MARRIED* 17:03:59 *IN THE FUTURE 17:05:09 Gregor: Pressing space does... amazing things. 17:05:14 MULTIGREGOR 17:05:15 Do not fix this 17:05:50 Gregor: Hey you can enter divs now 17:05:51 I approve 17:06:01 Gregor: But only from the top??? 17:06:47 You mean by pressing down? 17:06:50 Or otherwise? 17:06:54 pressing down yeh 17:06:55 *yeah 17:06:56 You've always been able to enter things by pressing down. 17:07:08 Gregor: ...oh. 17:07:16 I have been... missing out. 17:07:29 However, it's smarter about how many layers it puts in, so it's possible that whatever you're testing it on just had like a bajillion layers over that div, making it difficult to get through. 17:07:34 Gregor: Amusingly it does not work on its homepage. 17:07:49 Well. 17:07:50 I need some garbage there to make it more usable :P 17:07:52 It starts immovable. 17:08:32 Gregor: qwantz.com: So unplayable but SO RECOMMENDED 17:09:02 Gregor: It... I fell to the bottom and it looks like he's masturbating. 17:09:14 Oh that's your "falling" animation. 17:09:24 I don't have a death frame yet :P 17:11:33 Gregor: Try the log index. 17:12:21 Gregor: I... yeah, doesn't work. 17:12:25 ??? 17:12:28 Oh 17:12:32 But would be SO COOL 17:13:09 Try timecube :P 17:13:44 Gregor: I'm falling slowly through crazy. 17:13:59 Man evolves from teenager - 17:13:59 in cube metamorphosis 17:13:59 but ignores teenager to worship a male mother, 17:13:59 guised in woman's garb, 17:13:59 churchman called father. 17:13:59 what 17:15:51 Gregor: Resizing window breaks everything. 17:15:56 Yes, it does. 17:15:58 Don't do that. 17:16:10 I have to cache the location of every element as there is no getElementByPosition function. 17:16:46 Your mother is no getElem- 17:18:15 Gregor: ubuntu.com -- it thinks a lot of basically invisible things are images. 17:18:36 Gregor: Works fine on debian.org, showing your clear bias. 17:19:36 Gregor: I beat debian.org woo 17:19:45 Gregor: plz stop ctrl+w snatching 17:19:53 That's actually bothered me too X-D 17:20:01 I should just turn off WASD. 17:20:10 Gregor: I use wasd. 17:20:16 Just make ctrl+w do window.close() :P 17:20:26 Bleh. 17:20:30 I will, but not right now :P 17:21:10 Gregor: apple.com also unplayable :P 17:21:17 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:21:47 Gregor: Why does space do multipayer? 17:21:55 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 17:22:09 elliott: Because the button from the choose-your-game loader is still focused, even though it's not visible. 17:22:15 So you're clicking it again. 17:22:27 I should actually remove it from the document instead of just making it invisible, but apparently I'm lazy. 17:22:34 It's fun though. 17:23:07 Gregor: apple.com/itunes is fun & challenging 17:24:18 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:25:09 Gregor: i won \o/ 17:25:09 | 17:25:10 >\ 17:25:11 *I 17:25:29 Gregor: ...HAVENWORKS 17:26:00 It's fun to stay at the 17:26:08 Gregor: It's so beautiful 17:26:22 elliott: Isn't it weird how this very-stupid stopgap game intended only to be replaced is a lot of fun :P 17:26:26 \o/ |o\ /o| _o/ /o\ 17:26:26 | | | | 17:26:26 /| /| /< /| 17:26:35 Gregor: NEVER REPLACE IT OMG (You have tried it on havenworks right?) 17:26:55 Images collected:56 17:26:55 Images remaining:1698 17:26:57 No, I'm outside :P 17:27:35 Well, not so much replaced as made just one subgame. 17:28:13 Gregor: You don't have horizontal scrolling; rectify. 17:30:14 Gregor: Oh, it considers my screen border the page border,t oo, or something. 17:30:15 Lame. 17:30:16 *, too, 17:30:42 yeah, the top of the page being a boundary is annoying 17:30:54 cuz pages always have images at the top 17:30:59 and you can't get above 17:31:29 quintopia: If you can get a few hundred images on http://havenworks.com/, I will worship you. 17:31:49 The horizontal issue is a huge mess 17:31:57 HavenWorks is a huge mess :P 17:32:08 Some pages have wtf-wide divs floating around 17:32:11 Gregor: /me tries it on yvettes bridal formal 17:32:16 OH YEAH. 17:32:17 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 17:32:19 elliott, is there any formally proven libc? 17:32:23 Vorpal: No. 17:32:31 Gregor: It provides the game music for you. 17:32:47 elliott, hm, I guess anything dealing with IO would be tricky, floating point too perhaps. But the rest should be doable 17:32:49 yvette's bridal formal is to mine ears like BGP is to cpressey's 17:33:00 it sounds like a fun project if I find some spare time 17:34:00 Vorpal: yeah, it's... really not that easy 17:34:13 elliott, I didn't say easy 17:34:15 it would be an *incredible* result if someone made a full libc that was formally proven. 17:34:16 just doable 17:34:26 i.e. frankly i'd expect someone to make their own tool for it :) 17:34:35 (proving tool) 17:34:40 elliott, I very much doubt you can prove stdio without involving the kernel a lot 17:35:02 Vorpal: there's an L4 variant that has been proven correct 17:35:04 written in haskell 17:35:05 heh 17:35:11 Vorpal: build it on that 17:35:13 problem solved 17:35:55 elliott, but even something like a library with a large number of the "doesn't touch anything but parameters, and don't perform IO" standard libc functions would certainly be useful to people who want to prove their own code 17:36:11 usually the libc would be considered axiomatic there... 17:36:30 hm good point 17:36:39 elliott, it would still be useful for embedded programming 17:37:13 elliott, thinking about stuff like formally proven qsort, memcpy, memmove, strcmp and so on 17:37:34 if your libc maintainer gets qsort right...whoa. 17:37:43 or memcpy/memmove (maybe they tried to do tricky bullshit) 17:37:44 *wrong... 17:38:43 elliott, well, if you are writing for an embedded system you might have to provide the libc yourself. Been in that position myself 17:38:56 (not where I needed to do formal proof though) 17:39:27 elliott, as for qsort, well, overflow is something you might have to consider 17:39:30 what, did you write a libc for lego? :p 17:40:00 elliott, nah, another device, and not a full libc, just the stuff I needed for that thing, which was memcpy, strcmp and a handful of other ones 17:40:58 hm formally proving snprintf sounds... tricky 17:41:40 can you please say "proving snprintf correct", not just ... proving it? 17:41:45 it's... awkward. 17:41:46 elliott, oh right, I can 17:41:56 and it sounds like you're proving that snprintf is true 17:42:00 which... confuses my brain 17:42:17 elliott, but wait, that wouldn't be correct would it? Proving means "testing" or "putting at trial" here clearly ;P 17:42:33 (no not really, just that archaic meaning is fun) 17:42:52 (and it also makes "the exception proves the rule" a _lot_ more sensible) 17:42:58 sorry, bbiab, phone 17:46:39 gregorface: figured out why transparency wasn't working. should be good now. 17:53:48 -!- coppro has joined. 17:53:48 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host). 17:53:48 -!- coppro has joined. 17:53:59 coppro: you fail at cloaks 17:54:19 elliott: yeah, apparently I do 17:54:24 * coppro (~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) has joined #esoteric 17:54:24 * coppro has quit (Changing host) 17:54:24 * coppro (~scshunt@unaffiliated/scshunt) has joined #esoteric 17:54:46 I blame the ping timeout 17:55:08 I... don't :P 17:55:27 well too bad 17:55:52 22:22:49 but didn't give me any user feedback on success 17:55:52 22:22:58 and this is the only reason i fucking use GUIs 17:56:04 Yeah, because it's more reasonable to expect programs to fail without error messages, and succeed by blabbing. 17:56:20 Like gcc! 17:56:24 $ echo '{' >x.c 17:56:30 $ gcc x.c 17:56:33 $ echo >x.c 17:56:35 erm 17:56:42 $ echo 'int main(){return 0;}' >x.c 17:56:45 $ gcc x.c 17:56:51 x.c:1: Compilation finished SUCCESSFULLY! 17:56:52 no news is good news 17:57:05 coppro: thx, someone else was already uncreative enough to say that back when it was said 17:57:07 :P 17:58:44 it may be more reasonable at that, since errors require some sort of functionality to print. if a bug in a program causes it to jump to the exit(0) before it has finished, then shall we presume it succeeded? i'd rather know that it reached the printf("success!") which is provably only reachable if success was achieved. one could even barrier said message with tests that make sure success actually happened. 17:59:15 quintopia: if you care, you can always tack a check of success on the end 17:59:21 06:48:16 Aaand there's more IPv4 space than there was yesterday. 17:59:21 06:48:34 Interop handed their class A back to the free pool. 17:59:22 06:48:44 One more month! 17:59:23 who're interop? 17:59:36 quintopia: in unix, if it says nothing, it worked. 17:59:41 or take the unix route and prove each utility correct independently 17:59:46 if it says something, it might have worked; read what it said. 17:59:49 so therefore any composition of them is also success 17:59:53 if it says something and exits with exit code 1, it definitely didn't work. 17:59:57 just in case you can't read 18:00:00 yes, but unix is dead, like god 18:00:12 nope 18:00:14 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:00:15 i'd rather have feedback for everything, success and failure 18:00:16 * elliott loads a webpage, involving countless dead unix machines on the internet 18:00:20 unix philosophy is still the <3 18:00:21 Fairly low ping time for a dead OS. 18:00:29 quintopia: ok, seriously, you have no idea why it's a good thing? 18:00:33 how do you pipe stuff then 18:00:34 i do 18:00:49 coppro: no it isn't, unix is a piece of shit 18:00:51 i'm just explaining the piece of shit 18:01:03 coppro: by setting up alternate ways of programs communicating than via files and stdio of course 18:01:20 grep foo back 18:01:38 (where \ = newline, and the string is the result) 18:02:08 both quintopia and coppro are right and dead wrong in equal amounts 18:02:11 on opposite issues 18:02:12 interesting. 18:02:28 elliott: unix is not dead because it still gets used 18:02:39 elliott, gcc does give output on success... 18:02:41 the fundamental "do one thing and do it well" philosophy is still excellent 18:02:42 coppro: out of curiosity, why did you just address that message to me? 18:02:44 elliott, a file is also a form of output 18:02:48 god gets used too, but that doesn't mean it isn't dead 18:02:49 and that's all I'm asserting 18:02:56 elliott: because you were the one telling me I'm wrong 18:02:58 in fact, since god died, it has gotten more and more popular 18:03:09 coppro: it is good in the trivial, obvious sense; it is retarded in the sense that many people like to think it is. 18:03:22 coppro: also, *no* commonly-used *nixes actually follow the philosophy. 18:03:23 at all. 18:03:32 "Plan 9 does!" yes it does. my point made 18:03:40 lol 18:03:53 coppro: it is good in the trivial, obvious sense; it is retarded in the sense that many people like to think it is. 18:03:54 that is 18:04:04 the philosophy is obviously correct and trivial when interpreted in one way 18:04:07 and it's kind of a silly philosophy, IMO. as the Unix koans demonstrate 18:04:10 and obviously ridiculous when interpreted in a silly way which most people do 18:04:21 elliott: which silly way? 18:04:24 at least in the "do it as simply as possible" version of the philosophy 18:04:25 wow are you guys actually coordinating when to say silly things to keep the balance :D 18:04:49 coppro: "Everything does one thing except when it doesn't, and 'one thing' can include being a full GUI application with menus to do various tasks. It's one thing because it only operates on one type of data!" 18:04:55 coppro: And similar abominations. 18:05:00 ah, yeah, I totally agree 18:05:10 coppro: Also the idea that the fact that the smaller components are divided into separate executable files is somehow *integral* to the philosophy. 18:05:23 (If it isn't, then... it's just an obvious statement about how to design software components.) 18:06:10 elliott, btw it seems why (used by frama-c for the actual proving bit) doesn't work on coq 8.3 yet. Compile error and I don't have enough ocaml or coq skills to sort it out. 18:06:18 i say, bring back the lisp machine! :D 18:06:21 coppro: Oh, and I *severely* doubt the other component of the philosophy ("Structures are for noobs, all IO should totally be based on byte streams". Interestingly you never see people writing C programs this way; I wonder why they like "struct" so much?) 18:06:31 quintopia: Lisp machines were great although the OSes didn't go far enough. 18:06:42 But still, their component reuse for executing commands was limited, and Unix wins in that area. 18:06:50 Vorpal: Use Coq 8.2? 18:07:19 everything is a file is nice and flexible, but costs performance which, as it turns out, is very important 18:07:38 elliott, yeah, that's the plan. Just need to compile it myself instead of using the arch package then 18:07:42 coppro: um, not really. 18:07:46 plan 9 has no performance problems 18:07:51 sure it costs performance on systems not designed for it 18:07:59 but if your system isn't designed according to your philosphy... 18:08:02 *philosophy 18:08:03 what good is it? 18:08:08 that I agree with 18:08:25 and I suppose one should add that qualifier 18:08:31 coppro: anyway the idea that files, and things coming into and out of a pipe, must be byte streams, is almost certainly wrong. 18:08:56 as i said, you don't see unix programs being written that only use (char *), because structures are *useful* and rich 18:08:58 elliott: but they are byte streams 18:08:59 elliott, how well does plan9 scale to massive SMP or NUMA systems? 18:09:08 coppro: you see absolutely no difference between passing an object around and doing 18:09:11 f(serialise(obj)); 18:09:12 and then in f 18:09:16 foo = deserialise(arg1); 18:09:17 ? 18:09:19 say, for SMP, 16 or 32 CPUs or more. For NUMA, 100 or more CPUs 18:09:40 elliott: I don't think the OS should mandate an ABI 18:09:43 one, it's plain inefficiency. two, serialising functions is... iffy (can't think why you'd want to do that? well of course not, because you're too tied to bytestreams :)) 18:09:50 elliott: I don't think the OS should mandate an ABI 18:09:53 lol 18:09:57 that's... what OSes do 18:10:17 The utilities on the OS mandate the ABI 18:10:26 (except for system calls, which they do mandate) 18:10:40 ...it is interesting how the terminology is twisted to give Unix an advantage, having all these silly terms that are relevant only to Unix stupidity and meaningless elsewhere 18:10:48 because the unix fans can just say, "what about the [silly]?" 18:10:55 elliott, only to some degree. Consider the Linux kernel, it mandates the syscalls and ioctls and such. But not the actually calling convention for calling something like strcpy() 18:11:00 which? ABI? systemcalls? 18:11:12 coppro: for instance, the distinction between an OS and its utilities 18:11:15 I guess by OS you meant kernel. 18:11:23 Kernel vs programs is also an artificial distinction for many system designs. 18:11:27 elliott: ah, yeah, fair 18:11:29 (For instance, Smalltalk.) 18:11:32 * coppro apologizes 18:11:47 So really you can't even say "the kernel shouldn't specify that". 18:11:55 coppro: Hell, I'm not offended, it's just interesting. 18:12:23 coppro: Another one: "OS", "language" distinction. (Yes, it makes sense in many cases; but the terminology has somehow made them into such opposing concepts that suggesting a design where they are the same thing is considered meaningless heresy.) 18:12:26 in that case, the bytestream abstraction still becomes necessary for communication with systems of different OSes (or the same OS on a different architecture or configuration) 18:12:48 elliott: I sit next to a lisp machine on a regular basis now :D 18:13:06 elliott, smalltalk doesn't run on bare hardware as far as I know in any current implementation? Not sure about historical implementations 18:13:16 coppro: What model? Where? Is it for sale? How much does it cost? Answer to the last question desired irrelevant of the answer to the second-last. 18:13:19 obvious example however is lisp machines 18:13:20 Vorpal: Smalltalk was always an OS. 18:13:27 Then it became a VM-language. 18:13:31 i.e. OS in a box 18:13:51 http://www.globalnerdy.com/2008/12/03/symbolics-xl1200-lisp-machine-free-to-a-good-home/ 18:13:57 elliott, were there any actual working non-VM implementations? 18:14:01 Vorpal: yes. the first one. 18:14:09 elliott, when and what name? 18:14:11 coppro: i read that post a while ago! 18:14:16 Vorpal: 70s and "Smalltalk". 18:14:36 coppro: Yes, but, cost for buying it from you guys. 18:14:52 elliott: You'd have to ask the CSC. I don't know if they'd sell it 18:15:06 i would also purchase a lisp machine. that would be hella cool. 18:15:16 coppro: Let's put it this way, it costs $3,500 new from Symbolics. 18:15:21 "costs"? 18:15:23 coppro: I am willing to negotiate a price below that. 18:15:27 coppro: Yes, Symbolics still sell Lisp Machines. 18:15:33 http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt Prices as of February. 18:15:37 quintopia: you can for $675 18:15:41 you'll have to go and collect it though really 18:15:52 in Virginia :P 18:16:01 i guess you could pay a ridiculous, *ridiculous* amount for postage instead 18:16:08 it is "Currently inoperable due to (at least) a missing console cable," 18:16:13 hell, i'd go to virginia for it 18:16:13 coppro: oh. 18:16:18 elliott, custom hardware ore "stock" for that time? 18:16:21 va is cool in my book 18:16:21 or* 18:16:24 I never said it worked 18:16:25 Vorpal: Um, it was at Xerox PARC. 18:16:27 and it's only 3 states over 18:16:28 quintopia: Stanislav of Loper OS bought one. 18:16:29 I merely said I sit next to it sometimes 18:16:38 quintopia: Ask him about it if you want. He might yell at you :P 18:16:40 elliott, well, that means it ran on? 18:16:55 Vorpal really can't imagine an era before mass-produced standard computers. Wow. 18:17:09 Vorpal: You do realise they made the Alto? 18:17:28 elliott, yes 18:17:46 Anyway I don't know if the machine is known, it was probably whatever PARC were using at the time. 18:18:00 It predated the Alto, it seems. 18:18:08 Vorpal: I also can't find a source for the OS thing but I'm fairly sure. 18:18:22 elliott, let me rephrase it: did it go the lisp machine route of *specialised* hardware fitting the language, or did it look more like traditional PDPs and so on in the way it worked 18:18:26 Vorpal: Hmm, it seems it was written for the Alto. 18:18:33 elliott, right 18:18:36 The hardware was relatively normal, I think. 18:18:52 right, that answers my question 18:19:00 Vorpal: It may have actually been a "program" that took complete control over the display and the like; the distinction wasn't very clear in those days. 18:19:09 Vorpal: "The Alto had a bit-slice processor based on the Texas Instruments' 74181 chip, a ROM control store with a writable control store extension and had 128 (expandable to 512) kB of main memory and a hard disk that used a removable 2.5 MB single-platter cartridge (Diablo Systems, a company Xerox later bought) similar to those used by the IBM 2310, all housed in a cabinet about the size of a small refrigerator. The Alto's CPU was a very innova 18:19:09 tive microcoded processor which used microcode for most of the I/O functions rather than hardware. The microcode machine had 16 tasks, one of which executed the normal instruction set (which was rather like a Data General Nova), with the others used for the display, memory refresh, disk, network, and other I/O functions. As an example, the bitmap display controller was little more than a 16-bit shift register; microcode was used to fetch display 18:19:10 refresh data from main memory and put it in the shift register." 18:19:20 It introduced Ethernet on personal computers, incidentally. 18:20:02 quintopia: I'd totally buy a 3620 but while I could scrap together $675 to buy it eventually going to Virginia is... not an option. 18:20:35 elliott, "personal" by some definitions 18:20:41 quintopia: BTW apparently the CRT is very crappy (for today), and the mouse too. Stanislav was also working on an interface to use a regular LCD display and a USB or PS/2 mouse with it, I think. 18:20:44 Vorpal: Well, it was single-user. 18:20:44 elliott, looks more like workstation to me 18:20:49 elliott: point me to this stanislav guy 18:20:53 Vorpal: Workstations are personal computers. 18:20:56 quintopia: Dunno if he ever got it done though. 18:21:02 quintopia: http://loper-os.org/ 18:21:31 elliott, yeah but what do you call the set PC \ Workstations ? 18:21:33 elliott: anyways, back to the OS thing; byte streams are the lowest common denominator between computers; so byte-communication facilities must exist - not that they necessary need to be the normal mode of cross-process communication (/me envisions Erlang machines) 18:21:40 Vorpal: I don't. 18:21:47 quintopia: I recommend picking the LispMachine tag from the right and leaving a comment on an appropriate post. 18:21:51 quintopia: He seems to not publish his email on that site. 18:21:52 elliott, hrrm 18:22:12 coppro: Well, you still need bytestrings for storing stuff in memory and on disk. 18:22:18 coppro: And shoving over Ethernet. 18:22:35 coppro: I doubt we'll ever see "object RAM" or "object disk" (not those object disks, disks that actually store objects :)) and I doubt they would be beneficial. 18:22:45 coppro: So there's no real issue with bytestring for inter-computer communication. 18:22:49 quintopia: Hoopla. Still no splat though ;) 18:22:52 The GUI of my 4MHz Symbolics 3620 lisp machine is more responsive on average than that of my 3GHz office PC. The former boots (into a graphical everything-visible-and-modifiable programming environment, the most expressive ever created) faster than the latter boots into its syrupy imponade hell. 18:23:02 elliott: anyways, back to the OS thing; byte streams are the lowest common denominator between computers; <-- not really 18:23:05 quintopia: He... that furore, get used to it. 18:23:08 Gregor: splat is low priority. let's get jumping looking nice first 18:23:18 quintopia: But I splat a lot :P 18:23:22 coppro, 1) How large is a byte? Not always 8 bits in fact. Today yes but not historically 18:23:31 "And then he splat, all over my computer." 18:23:34 coppro: Let's maul Vorpal, together. 18:23:36 coppro, 2) What about ternary computers, they don't use bytes 18:23:40 coppro: Are you with me? 18:24:18 -!- Gregor has set topic: Mandelbrot was found stabbed by the Julia set | TOO SOON | Logs: http://is.gd/g4uID. 18:24:34 coppro, also I read some paper that studied the viability of an erlang machine some time ago 18:24:56 -!- elliott has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | http://is.gd/g4uID. 18:25:00 coppro, was quite interesting, don't know where I found it though. I don't think it was from the HiPE group, not sure though 18:25:11 elliott, how disrespectful 18:25:16 Vorpal: * Gregor has changed the topic to: Mandelbrot was found stabbed by the Julia set | TOO SOON | Logs: http://is.gd/g4uID 18:25:22 It is never too soon. 18:25:24 oh missed that 18:25:35 Gregor, how disrespectful 18:25:38 Fuck everyone who would want people to be serious and somber about their own death. 18:25:45 elliott: MUCH better. 18:25:47 elliott: I couldn't find a good fractally thing. 18:25:57 You think Mandelbrot said "...and when I die, don't you dare get amusement out of it"? 18:26:00 However, "TOO SOON" was there for yuks :P 18:26:08 -!- Gregor has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://is.gd/g4uID. 18:26:12 He's awesome. He died. Now stop weeping and lol. 18:26:34 elliott, would you have done that the day you decided to move the link all over to the right? 18:26:47 Vorpal: I'd have laughed if someone did. 18:26:52 hm 18:27:01 Doesn't always joke about deaths immediately != finds joking about deaths incredibly offensive 18:27:02 elliott, but you wouldn't have done it yourself I presume? 18:27:09 Doesn't always joke about deaths immediately != finds joking about deaths incredibly offensive 18:27:15 elliott, true, I would wait a few more days thoygh 18:27:18 though* 18:27:33 He's dead. It's not like his corpse is going to decompose just that little bit more so that he can't hear. 18:27:38 ...although that would be vaguely amusing. 18:27:47 "LOL HE DIED" "I heard that!" 18:27:51 "Maybe we should cremate him instead." 18:28:25 elliott, he might get angry and become a fractal zombie, and there is no end to those... 18:28:33 elliott: Your line is almost worth vandalizing Wikipedia with :P 18:28:37 "BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS nested inside other brains" 18:31:51 elliott, hm do you know if there could be any issues installing coq into ~/local/coq or such? I mean, I have no idea how it an ocaml locates libaries and such. Should I expect the kind of pain you have with installing python packages outside /usr/lib/pythonX.Y/site-packages? 18:32:08 Vorpal: OCaml doesn't have any dynamically-linked runtime as far as I know. 18:32:10 I will probably use system ocaml if possible 18:32:10 It should work fine. 18:32:14 elliott, phew 18:32:34 elliott, any issues at compile time though? 18:32:47 Vorpal: I don't see why. It should work. 18:33:11 elliott, what about compile time finding? 18:33:17 Vorpal: I don't see why. It should work. 18:33:22 well okay 18:35:15 Why don't AMD make any good processors. 18:35:25 I REALLY DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT INTEL GUYS 18:35:58 * Gregor <3 Intel 18:36:05 elliott, interesting build system coq has 18:36:40 Gregor: Do you <3 their awful business practices? <3 their refusal to put virtualisation on a lot of laptop processors for no reason? 18:36:46 Do you <3 this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11379089 18:36:52 elliott, it looks like configure tries to fake looking like autoconf, but then when it was halfway done decided "screw it" and dropped the double -- for options and the = for separating options and arguments 18:36:59 Vorpal: heh 18:38:29 "lolita", what a hostname... 18:38:52 elliott, where? 18:38:58 http://i3.zekjur.net/screenshots/i3-8.jpg 18:38:58 quintopia: Can you say ... crazy spinjump? :P 18:39:17 elliott, who took that? 18:39:23 Someone who uses/develops i3? 18:39:32 Gregor: chill. i'm working on it. 18:39:33 "ch3ka" is their username as you can see. 18:39:41 elliott, ah, so this was not related to anything said recently in this channel? 18:39:44 Nope. 18:39:52 quintopia: Oh, you're actually making something like a crazy spinjump? X-P 18:39:58 quintopia: I was just suggesting something different :P 18:40:10 I REALLY DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT INTEL GUYS <-- you recently changed here? I seem to remember you making fun of my reluctance with intel 18:40:29 Vorpal: I love Intel processors, I dislike AMD's current offerings. 18:40:32 Intel the company I hate. 18:40:41 Do you <3 this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11379089 <-- yeargh 18:40:42 meanwhile, you can work out the physics for making it so i can punch a

and all the text disappears (and it becomes non-platform) while all the s within it remain platforms 18:40:49 Vorpal: That article has pretty much pushed me over the edge. 18:40:57 Vorpal: Before, AMD's processors were bad enough to keep me supporting Intel. 18:41:00 Now... flergh. 18:41:09 quintopia: ... YES. 18:41:15 meanwhile, you can work out the physics for making it so i can punch a

and all the text disappears (and it becomes non-platform) while all the s within it remain platforms 18:41:19 quintopia: But no, I'm at "work" :P 18:41:19 quintopia: let's get married 18:41:24 IDEA MARRIAGE 18:43:36 oh i have so many ideas for this thing 18:43:42 just wait til you see the skulldog 18:43:45 and the balloon 18:43:51 Gregor: Congratulations, quintopia now owns your game. 18:43:52 * quintopia has idea sex with elliott 18:44:01 * elliott sues quintopia for statutory idea rape 18:44:23 quintopia: I so desperately need ideas, so I'll take what I can get :P 18:44:27 is that a civil law tort? 18:44:37 I tort I tor a putty cat. 18:44:40 quintopia: BTW, what copyright info and license should I provide for the images? 18:44:51 Gregor: And now quintopia will profit off your game. 18:44:52 GREAT JOB HERO 18:44:56 put them under MIT/X11 too 18:44:57 why not 18:45:04 quintopia: Dude, profit! 18:45:17 elliott: all in good time 18:45:24 quintopia: OK, and seeing as that I don't know your real name, what Copyright (C) line would you like on them once I get the project page all put together? 18:45:31 * quintopia makes a truly devilish face 18:45:41 Gregor: Quin T. Opia 18:45:55 David Rutter 18:46:08 quintopia: That's just your ALIAS. 18:46:13 He wants your NAME, Quin. 18:46:22 SHHHHHHH 18:46:25 NO ONE MAY KNOW 18:46:48 * Gregor vaguely wonders how many times he's been drawn in pixel-art form now X-P 18:46:51 quintopia: Ohh right you're not calling yourself Quin any more because of that one time you raped a cat. 18:46:57 Don't worry, I won't tell anyone. 18:47:13 Putting all of quintopia's stuff together as one (and counting it as me even though it wasn't originally intended to be), at least three ... 18:49:49 -!- catseye has joined. 18:49:53 -!- catseye_ has joined. 18:51:08 Camlp4 library in : +camlp5 18:51:20 elliott, slightly amusing configure output ^ 18:51:30 Vorpal: Things to learn when using OCaml: OCaml makes no sense. 18:51:43 elliott, ah, that explains it 18:51:49 Vorpal: camlp4 and camlp5 are extensions to OCaml that let you define Lisp-style macros. 18:51:52 it's like java, where 1.6 means 6 18:51:56 Vorpal: camlp5 is an incompatible version of the language. 18:51:58 Vorpal: Both are maintained. 18:52:17 Vorpal: Well. 18:52:18 so, why did it find v4 in v5 hm 18:52:20 "Camlp4 is part of the official OCaml distribution which is developed at the INRIA. Its original author is Daniel de Rauglaudre. OCaml version 3.10.0, released in May 2007, introduced a significantly modified and backwards-incompatible version of Camlp4. De Rauglaudre maintains a separate backwards-compatible version, which has been renamed Camlp5. All of the examples below are for Camlp5 or the previous version of Camlp4 (versions 3.09 and prior 18:52:20 )." 18:52:26 and perl, where 6 means &*%#^ 18:52:26 "Even though it was released two years ago, the current version of camlp4 doesn't have yet a manual. The "Camlp4 manual" is from 2003, and is not compatible with present version." 18:52:31 Vorpal: If it works, try not to think about it. 18:53:19 elliott, also in the list of how configure configured stuff: 18:53:23 Coq web site : http://coq.inria.fr/ 18:53:25 hm 18:53:32 I wonder what option to configure sets that 18:53:45 --coq-web-site=http://fun.on.nimp.org/ 18:53:45 -!- catseye_ has quit (Client Quit). 18:53:48 (Don't click that. srsly) 18:54:25 elliott, well. that would be -coq-web-site http://example.org/ if it existed 18:54:31 but well, not there 18:54:36 at least not in -help 18:54:41 it probably isn't an option 18:55:07 elliott, why then list it in the list of stuff like "found optional thing x" and so on 18:55:13 Who knows. 18:55:18 indeed 18:55:41 france 18:55:43 go figure 18:55:48 Fun things to do: Turn off images, JavaScript, Java. Set up default fonts. Disable websites' ability to change fonts. Set colours to all black on white, including links. Disable sites' ability to set these too. Disable image loading. 18:56:10 elliott, why not just use lynx or something 18:56:26 Lynx isn't point-and-click. Also it keeps layout, just not colours and images. 18:56:28 Layout is important :P 18:56:34 ah, fun, it's "make world" not just plain "make" 18:56:40 yeah there was a much easier way to accomplish that pointless task more efficiently 18:56:40 for no very obvious reason 18:57:15 Vorpal: they... are paying homage to bsd 18:57:26 catseye, maybe 18:57:26 or are just very weird 18:57:27 anyway 18:57:32 france. go figure 18:57:33 it is what INSTALL says 18:57:37 but in the makefile: 18:57:39 NOARG: world 18:57:44 is the first target 18:57:45 make world is quite common with functional language impls 18:57:51 since it's the whole libs and stuff 18:57:53 not just say the compiler 18:57:54 elliott, so either would actually work here 18:57:58 catseye: it's not that pointless a task 18:58:03 it makes several websites significantly less irritating :) 18:58:23 elliott, yeah, but there is nothing in plain "make" or even "make all" that implies that it is not the whole thing 18:58:33 elliott, after all, "make all" logically should be exactly that, all 18:58:39 always: ; 18:58:42 interesting target 18:59:46 'all' always struck me as a bit gratuitous (it's a phony target, and 'make' should really suffice) 19:00:09 $ make some 19:00:26 catseye, by default make just uses the first target, if you have several binaries to build or such, what would you call the first target 19:00:27 well 19:00:36 all: program1 program2 program3 program4 19:00:40 that makes kind of sense 19:01:10 the rest of the coq makefile, which is custom as far as I can tell, is quite hairy. And gnu make specific. 19:01:32 sort of. i still don't like that it's phony, though. if i were a *real* purist i'd proobably want make.sh to call 'make program1', 'make program2'... 19:01:49 or to redesign the conceptual model :/ 19:02:16 catseye, make.sh? yeargh 19:02:17 but archaeologists? 19:02:51 GNAA Last Measure Live! 19:08:18 elliott, hm, coq seems to be a slow one to compile 19:08:25 Vorpal: well. 19:08:29 i'm not surprised. 19:08:32 it's a large piece of software. 19:08:32 elliott, nor am I 19:08:42 elliott, but I think we are looking at hours here. 19:08:43 Vorpal: the libraries will probably take a while too. uh, not sure if they're compiled actually 19:08:44 but whatever 19:08:48 Vorpal: huh -- maybe a slow machine? 19:08:51 i wouldn't expect that long 19:08:59 elliott, well, my desktop. 2 GHz 19:09:00 Vorpal: maybe if it's trying to verify the included four-colour theorem proof :) 19:09:05 sempron 3300+ 19:09:10 elliott, hahah 19:09:12 Vorpal: or the goedel's first incompleteness proof (dunno if they still/ever bundle(d) that) 19:09:20 *incompleteness theorem 19:09:27 elliott: is it the simplified FCT proof or the original one? 19:09:31 elliott, nice 19:09:47 quintopia: Vorpal: http://r6.ca/Goedel/goedel1.html 19:09:53 quintopia: it's a tweaked modern one, I think 19:09:53 elliott, but you are looking at 5-10 seconds per file or more here. Some files took like a minute 19:09:58 quintopia: in fact I know :P 19:10:00 elliott, slow as g++ but not as memory hungry 19:10:10 elliott, in fact it is quite modest in memory usage 19:10:10 Vorpal: and a lot faster resulting code than g++... 19:10:14 elliott, indeed 19:10:14 if it's running ocaml 19:10:20 Vorpal: or most likely ocamlopt 19:10:24 Vorpal: wait 19:10:27 elliott, it is the opt one 19:10:27 Vorpal: do you have ocaml.opt? 19:10:31 not ocamlopt 19:10:45 Vorpal: wait no 19:10:47 Vorpal: do you have ocamlopt.opt? 19:10:53 elliott, better up, I have ocamlopt.opt 19:10:56 Vorpal: that's the optimising ocaml compiler, compiled with the optimising ocaml compiler 19:10:58 Vorpal: right 19:11:02 Vorpal: fastest compilation you can get then 19:11:11 ocamlopt = optimising compiler 19:11:15 .opt = compiled with optimising compiler 19:11:18 ocamlopt.opt = obvious 19:11:18 elliott, I seem to have every ocaml thing in an .opt except ocaml itself 19:11:31 Vorpal: yeah i think ocaml itself is fast enough that it doesn't need an .opt 19:11:36 since it doesn't optimise as heavily 19:11:38 elliott, hm what is ocamlbuild.native ? 19:11:46 quintopia: fun thing about that proof, it could actually print out the unprovable statement 19:11:51 elliott, the other ones are ocamlbuild and ocamlbuild.byte 19:11:52 quintopia: with a little bit of tweaking of types 19:12:09 elliott, anyway, it has been going at: 19:12:10 Vorpal: builds to (or the ocamlbuild executable is built with) native code 19:12:11 COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field_theory.v 19:12:11 one of the two 19:12:15 for about half a minute now 19:12:15 Vorpal: rather than bytecode 19:12:20 Vorpal: oh, then it's compiled coq 19:12:23 and it's not using ocaml any more 19:12:29 well it probably is 19:12:32 but mainly coq 19:12:46 elliott, well yes, it actually compiled the coqc one pretty soon, about a minute or two into the compilation 19:12:54 elliott, it is the stuff after that that takes ages 19:13:00 Vorpal: that's just because Coq is slow as fuck 19:13:06 which is to be expected 19:13:06 elliott, right 19:13:22 elliott, ah but COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field_tac.v took just half a second 19:13:33 hm 19:13:36 Vorpal: tactics 19:13:42 they don't require complicated thought :P 19:13:57 elliott, what about these fast ones then: 19:13:59 COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field.v 19:13:59 COQC contrib/setoid_ring/RealField.v 19:14:02 Vorpal: (tactics are the little proof-searching/generating mini-programs used when proving stuff) 19:14:08 e.g. 19:14:11 right 19:14:15 reflexivity. rewrite foo. 19:14:20 reflexivity is a tactic, so is rewrite 19:14:28 "auto" is a tactic, so is "auto with arith" 19:14:37 (they can have more complex syntax than just "t x y z") 19:14:50 elliott, yep, it is obvious that tactics have to refer to something like that, considering how it is used in other proving software 19:14:56 the term that is 19:16:28 i want to put OS X in a vm now :) 19:16:34 CAGE THE BEAST 19:17:14 elliott, what triggered that sudden urge? 19:17:25 dunno 19:17:55 elliott, hm, iirc you *need* hw virualisation for it to work under virtualbox 19:18:09 and it needs a lot of fiddling. 19:18:12 QEEEEEEEEEEMUUUUUUUUUUUUU 19:18:20 Vorpal: It would probably work better with a Hackintosh (hate that word) build. 19:18:21 elliott, doubt that will work actually 19:18:38 elliott, you *still* need that iirc 19:18:41 even under virtualbox 19:19:18 what the hell did they change about the underlying unix (bsd?) that makes it so damn hard to virtualize? 19:19:32 [download] 0.6% of 106.02M at 45.14k/s ETA 39:52 <-- fuck youtube 19:20:02 no it isn't my connection that is loaded, and other stuff is fast when I try it 19:20:22 quintopia: it's not BSD at the very bottom 19:20:29 quintopia: at the bottom, it's Mach 19:20:42 quintopia: then, it's a heavily(!)-modified FreeBSD kernel 19:20:43 weird 19:20:52 quintopia: then, it's some FreeBSD command-line stuff 19:20:53 and other youtube videos download fast 19:20:54 and the rest is all apple 19:20:58 quintopia: oh, and remember that this all happened on ppc 19:21:01 and *then* they ported it all to x86 19:21:11 probably they used a lot of FreeBSD x86 code 19:21:11 but still 19:21:23 it's an x86->ppc->x86 port in some ways 19:21:31 well that answers that question 19:21:40 quintopia: also ofc they've never attempted to make it run on anything but apple hardware for obvious reasons 19:21:44 which is rather unconventional 19:21:56 nah, that's their business model 19:22:05 not really. 19:22:09 quintopia, stuff that makes it hard: requires EFI, tries to validate it only run on actual apple hardware, very limited support for hardware that apple don't use in their computers 19:22:13 they don't make their hardware incompatible for the fuck of it :) 19:22:26 thank god there is mac pro, otherwise it would probably not even have a generic VGA driver 19:22:37 Vorpal: ITT: Laptops have display ports too 19:22:38 because mac pro needs that if someone puts in an unsupported card 19:22:42 oh, right 19:23:02 elliott, external ports are completely irrelevant here :P 19:23:19 elliott: yes, they do. they say "we only support the hardware we support, and we're not wasting any time or money developing support for all your other fucking shit" 19:23:59 quintopia: which is an entirely different thing from them changing the hardware for the hell of it. 19:24:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:24:56 i'm sure they had a much better reason than "for the hell of it" 19:25:02 something to do with the bottom line 19:25:13 quintopia: and 9/11 was an inside job 19:25:45 and ehird is stallman's alternate personality 19:27:04 quintopia: you... i'm the one saying that apple aren't changing their hardware configurations just to stop people using OS X on other machines, and you call me a zealot? 19:27:37 i never called you a zealot... 19:28:01 you don't consider stallman a zealot? 19:28:28 i think he's enough of a zealot he needs an alternate personality into which to channel his less zealotous aspects 19:28:55 or maybe i should say, stallman is ehird's alternate personality 19:29:15 and you're channeling your subconcious zealotry into that public image 19:30:09 so does that rotaninrub guy ever talk? 19:32:27 (also, re: previous discussion. it seems we agree in some sense and you thought i disagreed in a different sense) 19:33:04 lawl 19:38:43 lol, this new falling sprite looks like moonwalking 19:40:26 quintopia: make it rotate constantly in a ball 19:40:27 tumbling 19:41:40 no, that's for double jumps only 19:41:56 they will be psychonauts style doubles 19:42:23 i like how you've taken over designing his game. 19:43:12 lol, this new falling sprite looks like moonwalking <-- hm where? 19:43:19 well, i have to. how else can i prevent him from fucking it up :D 19:43:31 oh websplat 19:43:39 Vorpal: too late. the moonwalking version is non-production. 19:44:55 dear gregor: rename the project "Websplat" immediately kthx 19:46:52 so, flinix; discuss 19:47:26 rhode island is neither a road, nor an island: discuss amongst yaselves 19:48:19 elliott, actually, coq just finished compiling 19:48:28 so, flinix; discuss 19:49:51 Michael Bay; discuss 19:50:14 oh look, it doesn't work for me either 19:51:09 #; 20:08:18 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh 20:08:32 this package gives you a Makefile.config.example and leaves the rest to you 20:08:33 -_- 20:08:58 pretty large file too 20:09:27 Vorpal: which package? 20:10:08 libapron, which is a dependency for some features in why that I want 20:10:18 nothing wrong with makefile.config :P 20:10:53 elliott, not in general no, but it asks stuff like where GMP or MPFR can be found 20:10:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:11:00 elliott, stuff that could be easily autodetected 20:11:03 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:12:11 -std=c99 -U__STRICT_ANSI__ <-- fun 20:15:50 GREGOR: http://filebin.ca/yosxja/croucherl.png.tar.gz 20:16:41 Gregor: for jumping, switch to croucher before taking off for only a couple of ms, then go to jumper0, then halfway through flight jumper1, then at peak, briefly, faller0, then rapid alternation of faller1 and faller2 as usual. 20:21:56 Vorpal: oh god, #debian has fallen prey to But What Do You Want To Do, Really, I Mean With Your Life Syndrome: 20:22:00 drasko: how about we go back to your original problem, what is it you are trying to do? 20:22:00 Hi all. GCC cross compilation complains about missing MPC. What debian packet to look for ? 20:22:03 well was more thinking what he is wanting to cross compile, why is he doing such a thing 20:22:09 YOU MUST JUSTIFY WANTING TO DO ANY SINGLE THING 20:22:17 we refuse to answer your specific questions. totally not because we don't know the answers 20:22:25 we just want to help you do it in the most bestest, debianest way. totally. 20:22:28 so don't do that. 20:24:46 elliott, is that representative of the channel in question? 20:25:04 Vorpal: it only requires one active person to do it to infect the channel 20:25:21 Vorpal: other places prone to this: #python (this is basically *all* they do), ##c 20:25:46 seriously, ask anything in #python and they'll just say "what are you doing?" and refuse to let you give anything but the design of your entire application 20:25:57 then they tell you not to do that, and to do everything you're doing completely differently. 20:26:03 because it's more P Y T H O N I C 20:26:34 elliott, well, in this case it is indeed absurd. Sometimes however it is justified, when someone asks a too specific question, like "how do I get the stdlib function foo to do bar" when a better solution would be "use quux to do it instead, since it is already designed to do that" 20:26:42 Vorpal: right 20:27:18 elliott, heck, when you are working on learning a new language with an extensive standard library that situation is quite common 20:27:22 Vorpal: but not "how do i set the frobnicate register to X?" "why are you trying to do that?" "to floobidah the zigzag" "why?" "to provide an interface for my program" "don't do that, use iHyperTek(TM) instead" "fuck you" "*kicks*" 20:27:31 elliott, indeed 20:27:53 later: 20:28:06 I C A N U S E S P A C E S 20:28:18 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: / q u i t). 20:28:29 "how do I get iHyperTek(TM) to recoilise the dissipation?" "why?" "to provide an interface for my application" "don't do that, use the frobnicate register instead" "i will maim all your babies" "i'm infertile" "fuck you" "*kicks*" 20:28:30 quintopia, no, you can't. You need to read the man page for them 20:29:21 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231392 forty eight gigs of ram 20:29:22 No manual entry for space 20:29:25 with two fan units of two fans each 20:29:29 only $3,499.99 20:29:31 buy now! 20:29:44 also newegg redesigned now it sucks lol. 20:29:52 elliott, what sort of mobo do you need for that 20:29:58 Vorpal: an expensive one 20:30:17 grr 20:30:18 y'know 20:30:21 amd's processors would be decent 20:30:25 if they used like half the power 20:30:28 indeed 20:30:47 elliott, that is why you never see them in laptops 20:31:01 "we're not as fast as our competitor at any reasonable price point, and your electricity bill will ensure that it's at least twice as expensive as the Intel equivalent in the long-run!" 20:31:06 "at least we're slightly less evil." 20:31:09 "slightly" 20:31:17 hah 20:31:30 meh, intel is pretty damn good at doing business and i don't begrudge them for it 20:31:31 Vorpal: did you know AMD processors are made in chinese sweatshops? 20:31:39 and used solely by illegal computer hackers? 20:31:40 i begrudge them the poulsbo chipset fiasco 20:32:05 quintopia: Doing business -- like when they told a manufacturer that only N of their laptops could use AMD processors, or their deal would go bye-bye? 20:32:15 That's called illegal. 20:32:43 Doing business, like selling customers tons of processors with locked features and making them pay to unlock, online, features of their CPU that they have, physically? 20:32:43 but think of the little chinese children! 20:32:45 That's just called being jerks. 20:32:56 quintopia: they use chinese adults. 20:33:14 wait no 20:33:15 children 20:33:19 sorry, i remembered wrong 20:33:20 Children aren't sufficiently resistant to the toxic chemicals to last long enough. 20:33:23 :P 20:33:25 [[If your son has requested a new "processor" from a company called "AMD", this is genuine cause for alarm. AMD is a third-world based company who make inferior, "knock-off" copies of American processor chips. They use child labor extensively in their third world sweatshops, and they deliberately disable the security features that American processor makers, such as Intel, use to prevent hacking. AMD chips are never sold in stores, and you will mo 20:33:25 st likely be told that you have to order them from internet sites. Do not buy this chip! This is one request that you must refuse your son, if you are to have any hope of raising him well.]] 20:33:35 well, the do provide sources for all their in-house drivers in order to actively support linux compatibility. that counts for something. 20:33:53 oh man, i love that video 20:33:57 video?? 20:33:58 noob 20:33:59 http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html 20:34:08 yeah i read the original too 20:35:29 damn that Linyos Torovoltos. 20:36:33 the best part is this 20:36:34 "If your son has undergone a sudden change in his style of dress, you may have a hacker on your hands. Hackers tend to dress in bright, day-glo colors. They may wear baggy pants, bright colored shirts and spiky hair dyed in bright colors to match their clothes. They may take to carrying "glow-sticks" and some wear pacifiers around their necks. (I have no idea why they do this)" 20:37:12 hackers=candy kids. everyone knows this. 20:37:58 quintopia: have you got a spare radiator in your house that i could borrow? 20:38:06 ((preferably not the radioactive kind)) 20:38:16 i am a spare radiator 20:38:18 wow. 3 tb disks out now 20:38:23 quintopia: can i hook up heatpipes to you 20:38:34 also, i have a non-functioning AMD-having computer next to me 20:38:36 it will serve 20:38:54 quintopia: i... am not sure how that is a radiator :D 20:39:01 unless you mean turning it on 20:39:09 it will turn on, but not post 20:39:12 in which case i'm obliged to inform you that radiators do not generate heat out of nothing :p 20:39:15 powersupply is functional 20:39:16 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:39:18 in fact i want one to get rid of heat! 20:39:26 quintopia: see, here's how you make a fanless computer: 20:39:36 1) don't use AMD 20:39:39 - copper. heatpipes. on. every. motherfucking. thing. 20:39:42 - gigantic. fucking. radiator. 20:39:53 quintopia: bigger the radiator, more awesome your system can be. 20:40:07 note: hooking things up to a radiator is probably a gigantic pain :P 20:40:20 -!- wareya has joined. 20:41:13 elliott: they also make radiators for people who want MORE heat: http://www.oscarsolarwaterheaters.net/images/3.gif 20:41:36 quintopia: yeeeeees... 20:41:39 * quintopia is wai too hot right now 20:41:41 quintopia: the idea is that you hook that up. 20:41:49 ...of course that only works with a watercooled system 20:41:55 quintopia: but, i mean, think what a radiator does 20:42:04 gets a bunch of hotness, radiates it into the air, heat all gone 20:42:12 quintopia: now think what a watercooled system does 20:42:16 heat warms water, heat now in water, heat all gone 20:42:17 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:42:18 elliott: in a car, it does it with a fan. wouldn't your fanless computer be better with a fan? 20:42:22 water goes to radiator, radiator put water in air 20:42:25 heat all gone 20:42:40 quintopia: "Better" as in more efficiency for the heat vs. radiator space... sure. 20:42:44 quintopia: You do this to have a silent system. 20:42:54 Because you're anal as fuck. 20:43:18 then you just put your radiator outdoors...like an A/C unit 20:43:28 then you can't hear the fan 20:44:42 quintopia: that's more of a bitch to set up. 20:45:10 well, you can also use the geothermal cooling system 20:45:24 just pipe the hot water underground in a grid around your house 20:45:46 no fan needed, temp goes down to ~65 year-round 20:47:51 quintopia: You do this to have a silent system. Because you're anal as fuck. <-- err, there are other reasons. For use in recording studios comes to mind 20:48:10 recording technicians are anal as fuck 20:48:16 quintopia, 65 is very hot 20:48:27 also, the computers don't go in the same room as the microphones duh 20:48:38 Vorpal: fahrenheit 20:48:45 quintopia, oh. 20:48:49 quintopia, what is that in C? 20:48:57 °C that is 20:49:06 isn't there a bot here to do that 20:49:25 quintopia, use Kelvin if you prefer 20:50:19 65-32=33. 33*5=165. 165/9=~18 20:50:32 18 °C, right 20:56:42 i suck so bad at tetris 21:03:22 http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html is such a wonderful page 21:03:32 elliott, ocaml question: this think looks for a library but expects it to be [...]/lib/foo.cxma, it is [...]/lib/foo.cma, what is the difference and can I just substitute the latter for the former? 21:03:53 Vorpal: got no idea there, but: 21:03:56 OMake mailing list 21:03:56 ... $(a).cxma) $(if $(BYTE_ENABLED), $(a).cma) Basically, if you have a line ... 21:04:01 Vorpal: seems like .cma is bytecode 21:04:02 hm 21:04:06 dammit 21:04:06 Vorpal: I would recompile foo with the native code compiler. 21:04:14 Failing that, try substituting. 21:04:15 elliott, I thought it was native 21:04:23 Clearly not :P 21:04:39 elliott, indeed. So NATIVE = 1 was not respected I guess... 21:05:23 lol 21:05:24 elliott, is the ocamlopt the native one? 21:05:30 Vorpal: yes. 21:05:35 well what the fuck then 21:05:39 it compiled using that 21:05:49 This chapter describes the Objective Caml high-performance native-code compiler ocamlopt, which compiles Caml source files to native code object files and link these object files to produce standalone executables. 21:05:55 Vorpal: well, try substituting. 21:05:56 see what happens 21:06:05 elliott, well, file thinks it is bytecode 21:06:09 Vorpal: well, try substituting. 21:06:09 see what happens 21:06:12 hm okay 21:06:12 it may work with bytecode anyway 21:06:13 for some reason 21:06:29 elliott, it will probably be a bit slow and this thing uses native code elsewhere s 21:06:30 so* 21:06:42 Vorpal: ocaml's bytecode is insanely fast for bytecode 21:06:57 elliott, can you mix byte and native in a single program? 21:07:06 who knows 21:07:10 Try it and see! 21:12:15 pikhq: Ping. 21:13:11 oh right, figured out how to build native ones 21:13:32 apart from NATIVE=1 you had to set HAS_OCAMLOPT=1 21:13:37 lawl 21:13:38 which was not documented at all 21:13:50 elliott, I found that only by digging in makefiles! 21:14:06 elliott, is all of the ocaml world this insane? 21:14:35 Vorpal: Well... 21:14:57 Vorpal: People -- at least when I used OCaml -- tend to tell you to use GODI (http://godi.camlcity.org/godi/index.html). 21:15:07 Which is Yet Another Language-Specific Package Manager except this one builds OCaml for you too. 21:15:15 And it sucks immensely, but uh... I would go insane doing all that manually. 21:15:20 At least GODI does it for you. 21:15:20 I like language-specific package managers... some people don't, but I do 21:15:30 elliott, well, this one is not really very standard 21:15:41 elliott, or do they include every single library there? 21:15:56 Vorpal: What library is it? 21:16:03 elliott, apron again 21:16:16 I'm starting to hate that library 21:16:38 elliott, I had to rebuild it three times so far trying to get it sane 21:16:44 Jc_annot_inference - [value] from source frama-c-Helium-20080701 (Score: 500) 21:16:55 * elliott searches for apron more concretely 21:16:59 elliott, hm? well yes that is what I want to use it for 21:17:00 indeed 21:17:08 apps-frama-c 21:17:09 Modular C static analyser 21:17:10 but helium is old 21:17:13 so it has frama-c and its dependencies. 21:17:21 Vorpal: frama-c version 2010-04-01 21:17:24 it appears 21:17:25 elliott, I know, but apron is an *optional* dependency 21:17:34 there is also apps-why 21:17:35 just a feature I really really really want 21:17:36 2.26 21:17:42 elliott, I need 2.27 :P 21:17:42 latest is 2.27 21:17:45 lawl 21:17:50 elliott, for one of the features I want 21:17:51 Vorpal: do you need the ultimate latest apron? 21:18:07 elliott, well, I don't know. I got it to build now anyway. I think 21:18:09 Vorpal: btw you don't *have* to use coq for all this apparently but it appears to be the most recommended thing by far 21:18:20 and it installed the *.cmxa 21:18:27 elliott, I need it for the why part 21:18:30 which is what I really need 21:18:36 One of the main features of Why is to be integrated with many existing provers (proof assistants such as Coq, PVS, Isabelle/HOL, HOL 4, HOL Light, Mizar and decision procedures such as Simplify, Alt-Ergo, Yices, Z3, CVC3, etc.). 21:18:41 frama-c + why 2.27 with apron 21:19:01 elliott, yes but why then does why refuse to build at all without coq? 21:19:34 elliott, and it can use several side by side, trying different ones to find one able to prove something 21:19:38 which is very nice 21:20:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:20:22 checking for pvs... /sbin/pvs 21:20:22 File descriptor 5 (/home/arvid/src/frama-c/why-2.27/config.log) leaked on pvs invocation. Parent PID 29670: /bin/sh 21:20:23 hahaha 21:20:35 elliott, it checks for pvs... only that is not the same pvs 21:20:40 lawl 21:20:44 elliott, that is pvs from lvm2 btw 21:21:09 configure: WARNING: PVS found but pvs -where did not work 21:21:23 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow). 21:22:07 Floats : no (Coq library AllFloat.vo not found) 21:22:08 but what 21:22:12 I enabled floats 21:22:14 when compiling coq 21:22:16 -_- 21:22:37 Vorpal: obviously you're doing it wrong 21:22:39 Vorpal: it seems you did not enable them properly 21:22:44 Vorpal: btw putting ocaml shit into its own directory is a sane idea 21:22:46 /opt/ocaml say 21:22:49 i'd say 21:22:52 or ~/local/ocaml 21:22:54 it's a bit... strange 21:22:56 sometimes 21:22:58 elliott, indeed. I used ~/local/frama-c here 21:23:03 since that is what I really care about 21:23:35 elliott, and I already had to patch some hard coded "check for this in /usr/lib and /usr/lib/local" checks 21:23:52 in one case the configure.in didn't want to produce a configure and I had to patch the configure directly 21:23:56 which is quite painful 21:24:45 Vorpal: once an ocaml package failed to build for me since i was on os x and it wanted gnu sed 21:24:53 ended up linking gsed to sed, compiling, and delinking 21:25:53 elliott, hah 21:26:06 elliott, well, yeah... French people wtf 21:26:12 (or something) 21:26:21 *Frenchies 21:26:48 Vorpal: what does pikhq recommend for snes emulation? 21:27:01 elliott, why not ask pikhq directly? 21:27:05 Vorpal: i tried to ping him 21:27:06 no response 21:27:08 (in-channel) 21:27:20 elliott, probably that cycle-accurate-needs-a-monster-computer one 21:27:23 Vorpal: yes. 21:27:24 what's its name? 21:27:35 elliott, if you don't have bleeding edge hardware I would suggest zsnes however 21:27:40 elliott, I don't remember the name 21:27:47 elliott, snes iirc 21:27:56 just go through the alphabet 21:27:57 1.33 ghz core 2 duo, 4 gigs ram, i'm sure i can handle it >:D 21:28:00 until you find it 21:28:01 ah bsnes 21:28:03 elliott, likely tooo slow 21:28:09 Vorpal: worth a try 21:28:14 "The executive summary if you don't want to read my latest wall-of-text: bsnes the public project is now dead, however I will continue to develop the source code and release it periodically." 21:28:19 elliott, cpu looks a bit on the weak side 21:28:25 Vorpal: it is, but *eh* 21:28:35 elliott, why is it dead 21:28:36 "As it turns out, the problem of accuracy was not linear as I once naively believed, but exponential. That is to say, if emulating 90% of games requires 200MHz, then emulating 95% requires 400MHz, 97.5% requires 800MHz, etc. In other words, there are rapidly diminishing gains." 21:28:40 Vorpal: tl;dr stuff 21:28:42 http://byuu.org/articles/bsnes-future 21:28:58 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 21:30:36 Vorpal: but eh, personal projects are fine :P 21:30:59 Vorpal: oh, assholes seem to be the reason 21:31:12 [[So back to my original point about ensuring games work in the future on all emulators. Even after five years of bsnes being out there, and me preacing these virtues everywhere I could, we had the Lennus II translation in 2009. A fan translation that only ran in ZSNES. 21:31:12 I really tried, I put my vitriol aside, stepped in, and offered to help. I offered to work on the game, without even having the ROM hack source code, to track down and fix the problem. Only to come across a post by one of the authors on another forum some weeks later essentially calling me an asshole for being pedantic about it not running anywhere else, all the while putting "accuracy" in quotes as if it was a made-up term. Talk about gratitude. 21:31:12 When I responded, it was of course denied that he was referring to me, the only person who ever brought it up. But I wasn't born yesterday.]] 21:31:29 * Sgeo does not know whether to be happy or scared that some woman asked him for his number 21:31:38 OH GOD PEOPLE WANT MY NUMBER 21:31:40 she's probably a rapist. 21:31:55 I never saw her before today 21:32:09 shocking. 21:32:11 I knew her for a few minutes 21:32:18 people usually give other people their numbers after knowing them for years 21:32:23 def. a rapist 21:33:16 elliott, years is a bit on the extreme, could be months. 21:33:26 Vorpal: it was extreme sarcasm. 21:33:27 lol @ months 21:33:31 lololol 21:33:55 elliott, ;P 21:34:06 oh you were joking too 21:34:09 i thought you were actually carzy 21:34:10 *crazy 21:34:11 (carzy!) 21:34:41 luckyass fucker 21:34:42 haha 21:34:52 maybe if i got out more.. 21:34:58 elliott, duh of course. Rather it could be a question of minutes if you have a reason for it. 21:35:23 somehow i have a feeling there is a girl out there who does not have Sgeo's number 21:35:23 but if a complete stranger walked up and asked for phone number I would be a bit confused 21:35:26 (and she is all girls) 21:35:34 Sgeo: if she tried to grab your junk, she is probably a rapist 21:35:35 Plural singularities! 21:35:42 quintopia: Nice heuristic. 21:35:51 it's serverd me well 21:35:57 elliott, there are a lot of girls who don't have my number. The girl who asked today is not one of them. 21:36:00 ass pinches are flirty, junk squeezing is rape 21:36:11 "She said she was going to kidnap me, rape me, and then dissect me, barbecue me and eat the pieces. She didn't grab my junk so I gave her my address." 21:36:31 elliott, what do you do if someone emails you source code, but instead of taring or zipping it up, attaches all the files separately. And there are about 20 of them 21:36:31 Come to think of it, I don't know how old she is. She looks a bit older 21:36:35 wait, who said anything about the inverse being true? 21:36:37 this is somewhat annoying 21:36:42 Vorpal: what do they want you to do with it? 21:36:53 Also, she asked at what time I'm usually at the bus stop in the morning... 21:37:00 That creeped me out a bit 21:37:03 Clearly she is going to rape you. At the bus stop. 21:37:09 did she ask what kind of candy you like? 21:37:27 I'm going to text her soon 21:37:46 Sgeo's gonna get some cougartail! woot. 21:37:49 elliott, well, makes sure it works I guess, it is related to a project at university. So I really need to do this, it is in my interest as well. 21:37:51 Vorpal: ok tl;dr bsnes isn't dead he just isn't advertising it any more due to idiots 21:37:56 Vorpal: oh 21:37:59 Vorpal: i was going to suggest, like 21:38:15 Vorpal: mailing back a C program that does system("firefox ") 21:38:18 elliott, it is somewhat annoying, since they aren't supposed to all go into the same directory either 21:38:23 "I fixed your code, can you check if this binary works on your system?" 21:38:32 Vorpal: email back and ask for the archived version 21:38:37 if they don't immediately do so, yell at them 21:38:54 hm 21:39:50 and where the fuck did the makefile go... 21:40:36 and I think this got windows mangled, there is a suspicious UPPPER.FOO look about filenames that would fit into the 8.3 thingy 21:40:38 elliott, ^ 21:41:13 Vorpal: huh. 21:41:22 Vorpal: email back and ask for the archived version 21:41:26 elliott, yes 21:41:28 elliott, I did 21:41:43 I was just looking further at the attachments in question 21:41:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:42:46 * elliott sets about compiling bsnes 21:42:53 Vorpal: 21:42:57 Minimum system requirements: 21:42:57 Intel Atom, Intel Pentium IV or AMD Athlon processor 21:42:57 64MB RAM free 21:43:02 what 21:43:04 Vorpal: recommended is just core 2 duo / phenom 21:43:09 elliott, hm 21:43:11 i... think i'll be just fine, thank you 21:43:20 hrrm 21:43:33 Vorpal: apparently it doesn't require even 1 GHz for cycle-accurate emulation 21:43:35 just like 800 MHz 21:43:40 at least that's the impression i got from his long blog post 21:43:41 when he talked about it 21:44:42 Vorpal: ouch: "Another critical failure has been in the method of archival itself. When dumping the ROM contents alone, this discards everything else about the game. For an emulator, this means there is no PCB layout information. In other words, we don't know where to map ROM and RAM to. The current state of SNES emulation is to use extremely elaborate hacks that essentially put ROM and RAM everywhere, even though the real cartridges didn't exact 21:44:42 ly work this way." 21:45:29 Vorpal: ah, the new gui is his own toolkit it seems 21:45:30 phoenix 21:45:35 with the qt one being unmaintained 21:45:36 wtf, how can you put "rom and ram everywhere"? 21:45:44 olsner: "extremely elaborate hacks" 21:45:52 [[Yes, certainly. There are 1,442 unique Super Famicom (Japan) games, 720 unique Super Nintendo (US) games, and 534 unique Super Ninteno (Europe) games. This gives us a grand total of 2,696 unique games.]] 21:45:54 not much! 21:46:42 what does "putting rom and ram everywhere" even mean? 21:47:01 Vorpal: who knows? 21:47:02 sounds scary. 21:47:23 elliott, like, duplicating them to fill the address space? But then that surely would mess up other stuff 21:47:35 I quote, "extremely elaborate hacks" 21:47:47 elliott, indeed must be 21:47:55 # profile-guided instrumentation 21:47:55 # flags += -fprofile-generate 21:47:55 # link += -lgcov 21:47:55 # profile-guided optimization 21:47:55 # flags += -fprofile-use 21:47:57 just like you! 21:48:10 elliott, hm? 21:48:22 $ make -j3 ui=ui-phoenix 21:48:24 Vorpal: insane optimisation :P 21:48:40 ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:62: error: expected primary-expression before ‘]’ token 21:48:40 ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:62: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘{’ token 21:48:40 ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:67: error: expected primary-expression before ‘[’ token 21:48:42 times five billion 21:48:45 lemme guess, a missing header file 21:48:52 fuck gcc/g++ error messages fuuuuuuuuck them 21:48:58 elliott, actually that is quite nice when trying to find how fast it can go. I don't, and never have, used it for normal operation 21:49:04 never even recommended anyone to do so 21:49:22 systemLoadCartridge.onTick = []() { 21:49:22 utility.loadCartridgeNormal(); 21:49:22 }; 21:49:24 is that... 21:49:25 C++0x? 21:49:37 cpp := $(subst cc,++,$(compiler)) -std=gnu++0x 21:49:39 yes it fucking is. wow. 21:49:43 not any valid form of c++ I recognize anyway 21:49:48 I... 21:49:49 Wow. 21:49:51 Uh. 21:49:57 So my g++ doesn't do C++0x, I guess. 21:50:16 I think you need at least 4.3 21:50:21 and probably 4.4 for some of it 21:50:27 gcc version 4.4.5 (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.4.4-14ubuntu5) 21:50:28 and/or 4.6 for the rest of it 21:50:51 olsner: []() { ... } isn't exactly hard 21:51:12 "GCC does not have lambdas in the current 4.4 version nor the in-development 4.5 version. See gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html for details of GCC's C++0x feature support – sstock Aug 5 '09 at 13:42" 21:51:13 "Lambda expressions and closures: No" 21:51:40 hmm, so how did someone manage to ever compile that code if there's no gcc version that supports it? 21:51:42 olsner: but: 21:51:43 New wording for C++0x lambdasN2927GCC 4.5 21:51:48 olsner: also, it supports other compilers for other OSes 21:51:54 lolol 21:51:55 and defaults to qt 21:51:59 which doesn't require c++0x :P 21:52:21 oh! 21:52:23 there's a gcc4.5 package 21:54:15 $ make -j3 compiler=gcc-4.5 ui=ui-phoenix 21:54:17 la de adh 21:54:18 *dah 22:03:25 elliott, wow, one program decided that the installed ocamlgraph was too old and extracted a local tarball with *the same version number* 22:03:48 elliott, that is just mindblowing 22:11:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:16:31 -!- cpressey has joined. 22:18:08 quintopia: zomg these images are SO AWESOME. 22:20:49 Gregor, where? 22:20:59 Vorpal: The ones for webplat :P 22:21:03 Gregor, also you should allow upgrades in the form of changing hats there 22:21:10 Gregor, like, based on your own hat collection 22:21:14 ... 22:21:14 YES 22:21:26 Gregor, based on your own, not like mario thus 22:21:55 Except that representing 30-odd hats in 7x4 pixels or whatever is quite a trick :P 22:22:02 Gregor, oh good point 22:22:21 DO NOT LET IT STOP YOU 22:22:53 The Adventures of Hatman 22:23:09 mouse over the hat to see ZOOMED HI DEF image 22:23:11 $ gwhy-bin 22:23:11 Computation of VCs... 22:23:12 very nice 22:23:13 now what 22:23:23 oh, it is gwhy 22:23:26 not gwhy-bin 22:23:30 right 22:23:38 $ gwhy 22:23:38 don't know what to do with 22:23:40 okay.... 22:23:49 well I guess it needs a parameter 22:24:06 still, somewhat amusing error 22:24:20 cpressey, nice idea 22:25:08 Gregor, technically 30 odd hats in 7x4 should be easy: 22:25:10 $ echo $(( 7*4 * 255 * 255 * 255 )) 22:25:10 464278500 22:25:13 except, well 22:25:31 most of them will look the same 22:25:38 Also, not like hats. 22:25:45 Gregor, ah good point too 22:25:56 But luckily, I have enough pixels to wear a rainbow box on my head. 22:25:57 Gregor, some will look like hair, or just EMISSINGNO 22:25:58 Hooray? 22:26:31 Gregor, do what cpressey said then ;P 22:26:44 Gregor, anyway, did you put up the updates images so it is possible to test it? 22:27:35 Hmmm? 22:28:50 Ahhhh 22:28:56 Gregor: *Do* you own a rainbow-hat of some sort? You ought to. 22:28:59 I've been gone all day, didn't see 'em. 22:29:05 cpressey: I do not. Donations welcome. 22:30:02 Gregor, any idea where to find one? 22:30:12 Nope. 22:30:22 Gregor, what about a mushroom hat? 22:30:44 (looks like the Toads in mario) 22:39:08 -!- catseye has joined. 22:43:25 all this to play chrono trigger 22:43:54 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:44:30 Vorpal: #1 thing i hate about console emulation: having to assign keys 22:44:45 i totally need an adapter for every console's control 22:44:55 Gregor: just have a selection of your favourite hats for various abilities 22:45:05 Gregor: fez could be fire, say (it's red!) 22:45:22 the fez comes with a magic carpet 22:47:04 Vorpal: xD 22:47:07 "gconftool-2 --type bool --set /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_icons true" 22:47:08 -- make -n 22:47:20 not entirely sure why it sets that :P 22:50:55 Vorpal: have you got a chrono trigger rom? rom sites suck. 22:50:59 (yes indeed, i've never played it.) 22:51:40 I could, hypothetically, you know, put one somewhere. 22:51:50 fizzie: Hypothetically I would not hypothetically mind that. 22:51:59 Huh, apparently the US release was made easier. Eh, who cares. 22:52:03 I suck at games anyway. 22:53:36 By playing the SNES original you're missing out on a huge pile of the most boringest fetch-quests in the whole wide world. (One of the DS port additions.) 22:54:22 fizzie: Something said that the Japanese original is harder. 22:54:36 And there was this TOTAL RETRANSLATION that fixed it and also fixed all the Engrish which, really, why are you even playing any more? 22:54:41 Engrish is the thing! 22:54:56 elliott: Oh, good, you're using BSNES, definitely the best SNES emulator. 22:55:20 pikhq: On my memory of your recommendation! 22:55:27 pikhq: Now let's see if it can do nice shit with 1.33 GHz. 22:55:57 pikhq: It doesn't appear to have an option to scale the video though. That sads me, but whatever, the default size is okay. 22:56:06 pikhq: Oh, and, you do use the phoenix UI right? 22:56:07 Not the Qt one? 22:57:02 fizzie: Uhh, do I need L and R much to play Chrono Trigger? 22:57:05 The amount of key bindings, they scare me. 22:57:35 elliott: The phoenix UI is fairly new; been using the Qt UI because that's got all the features. 22:57:44 The Qt UI, though, is no longer maintained. 22:58:00 pikhq: Features are for LOSERS. 22:58:03 The current version of BSNES is the last version that will have it. 22:58:04 pikhq: (What kind of features?) 22:58:12 Scaling the video for one. :P 22:58:12 pikhq: It's keeping it, just not being maintained; at least according to his blawg. 22:58:16 Maybe he posted something on the forums? 22:58:32 I'll probably port it to work via libsnes one of these days. 22:59:02 pikhq: Mind, the default scaling setting seems about right. 22:59:15 It couldn't handle another timesing and still be windowed on my screen, I don't think. 22:59:56 elliott: You need them to enter some "passwords", but not very many times. Something like twice. (You also will need to press L+R simultaneously at one point.) 23:00:18 elliott: I just use my PS3 controller for it, BTW. 23:00:21 And of course they're sort-of useful for flipping between characters inside the menus. 23:00:24 pikhq: I own not a PS3. 23:00:36 I could hook up my GameCube controller :-P 23:00:40 Heh, I just use my PS3 controller too, even though I own not a PS3 either. 23:00:52 The PS3 controller is, I've found, pretty ideal for emulation. 23:00:52 not also own controller I PS3. 23:01:02 Okay; up/down/left/right are... 23:01:08 Do I want to remap them to WASD? ...Naw. 23:01:12 ...maybe. 23:01:13 pikhq: It doesn't have L3/R3, though. :/ 23:01:39 fizzie: Those are the analog stick buttons, aren't they? 23:02:03 pikhq: Heh, I just realised that low-keyboard bindings suck for me since I don't have an arm rest... 23:02:15 Too lazy as fuck to change them though. 23:02:24 For my reference: 23:02:29 BA = ZX 23:02:30 YX = AS 23:02:33 LR = DC 23:02:36 ' = Select 23:02:39 erm 23:02:40 Select = ' 23:02:44 Start = Return 23:03:51 Um, er, fizzie, that file you didn't give me, bsnes doesn't list it. 23:03:56 Is .smc a specific format or something? 23:04:24 "Super MagiCom". One of those copier headered files. 23:04:32 pikhq: So... no bsnes? 23:04:46 So get another ROM basically? 23:04:57 Sorry fizzie even your hypothetical scenarios are inadequate. 23:04:57 elliott: Qt UI would handle it. Buut, you don't want that ROM. It's nasty. 23:05:05 Sorry fizzie. You're nasty. 23:05:08 pikhq: Gimme yer ROM bitch :P 23:05:12 Hypothetically. 23:05:17 Meh, all the GoodSNES files are .smc's, you know. 23:05:31 It's the industry standard. 23:05:33 fizzie: GoodSNES is a scourge. 23:05:50 Of the 90s. 23:05:51 s/scourge/easy way to get a whole pile of games/ 23:05:57 Go for NoIntro. 23:06:17 pikhq: Dood, I need a pointer to a ROM :P 23:06:21 I can only find .smcs. 23:07:05 But that's not on my disk. So a lot more complicated. 23:07:06 elliott: Would you like Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Eng)(1.0), Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Jap)(1.0), or Chrono Trigger - Sample ROM (NTSC)(Jap)(1.0)? 23:07:18 pikhq: I can't read Japanese, if that matters :P 23:07:31 elliott: So, I'll upload the English one. :) 23:07:37 Yaaaay 23:07:44 pikhq: Why parens with no spaces between them, what possesses people to do this ugly 23:08:01 Not my naming scheme. 23:08:03 *shrug* 23:08:14 [[The idea that spacetime may not be entirely smooth – like a digital image that becomes increasingly pixelated as you zoom in – had been previously proposed by Stephen Hawking and others. Possible evidence for this model appeared last year in the unaccountable “noise” plaguing the GEO600 experiment in Germany, which searches for gravitational waves from black holes. To Hogan, the jitteriness suggested that the experiment had stumbled upo 23:08:14 n the lower limit of the spacetime pixels’ resolution.]] 23:08:17 oerjan: you heard it here first 23:08:41 And re L3/R3, I think the DualShock2 analog sticks are buttons labeled like that, but the DualShock3 I have doesn't report anything if I try to push them down. 23:09:12 pikhq: The DualShock 3 is wireless, right? 23:09:20 And wired. 23:09:22 Oh, they're just *that* hard to push. 23:09:24 pikhq: Yes, but. 23:09:28 Never mind them, it does have those too. :p 23:09:28 (it has a USB port on it; you can plug it in.) 23:09:34 pikhq: Yes... but that's uncomfortable! 23:09:39 At least for where any computer would be. 23:09:43 (Not so much a console.) 23:09:45 It uses Bluetooth. 23:09:45 What's wireless latency like? 23:09:58 Not noticable. 23:10:05 Kay. I'd just use that then. 23:10:14 elliott: http://filebin.ca/fqsxeb 23:10:17 I've been using the wireless side only with the N900, and haven't noticed any controller-related latency there. 23:10:28 pikhq: Can I have the filenamed link? I'm a lazy ass. >_> 23:10:32 (Or you could just tell me the filename.) 23:10:33 The Bluetooth pairing via USB is a bit silly though. 23:10:35 http://filebin.ca/fqsxeb/ChronoTriggerNTSCEng1.0.sfc 23:10:47 pikhq: The filenames aren't in the naming scheme??? 23:10:57 Filebin stripped stuff out. 23:10:58 Way to have a pointless naming scheme, hero :P 23:11:06 pikhq: "Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Eng)(1.0).sfc", then? 23:11:10 Yup. 23:11:50 And BTW, I have the entire set of FDS, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advance, NES, SNES, and N64 ROMs for games that were *actually put on a cartridge at some point*. 23:12:02 pikhq: Is the sound actually that glitchy-sounding, or do I have a stupid PulseAudio problem? 23:12:07 Gregor: Even in 2D, people can't reverse direction on a dime (on land...in the air, they have the ability to push off air molecules to provide infinite impulse), and as such, they must do a deceleration slide before taking off the other way. 23:12:13 elliott: Problem of some sort. 23:12:26 pikhq: Joooy 23:12:28 To this end, I present you with sliderl2r.png, which gives a rare glimpse of your face: http://imgur.com/Z4IwY 23:12:30 elliott: What video driver is it using? 23:12:40 pikhq: SDL. 23:12:41 elliott: It matters greatly. 23:12:45 I can also use X11 or OpenGL. 23:12:49 elliott: Try OpenGL. 23:13:07 pikhq: Not X? 23:13:19 It'll do software scaling. And be slow. 23:13:22 audio is set to pulseaudio; maybe the default ALSA is the best even when using ShitAudio. 23:13:32 Input = SDL should be fine I asume 23:13:42 Should be. 23:13:51 elliott: um i'm pretty vaguely sure i've already seen it somewhere, possibly it was on reddit before 23:14:02 pikhq: Audio: PulseAudio, OpenAL, OSS, PulseAudio, PulseAudioSimple, libao 23:14:07 I have PulseAudio. WhaddoIdo :P 23:14:10 oerjan: that article was, I meant 23:14:14 oerjan: we talked about rounding errors in physics 23:14:16 I dunno. 23:15:07 pikhq: Do I want both synchronise video and synchronise audio on? 23:15:18 Only the latter was on in the default config. 23:19:35 Vorpal: http://byuu.org/images/bsnes_20100814.png 23:19:46 Vorpal: Okay, so basically, you only need a super-fast computer if you go with the 100% accuracy profile. 23:19:56 -!- An7iVi2uS has joined. 23:20:12 pikhq: Probably worth recompiling the Qt UI, isn't it? 23:20:15 *with the 23:20:25 An7iVi2uS: your spelling is no match for my tab complete 23:21:10 i mean, hi 23:22:53 pikhq: Do I want the compatibility or performance profile? 23:24:39 ? 23:24:46 -!- An7iVi2uS has left (?). 23:24:48 An7iVi2uS: we're all racists here! of glorious matter convert. 23:24:54 cool oerjan can't even slap me for being weird to the newbie 23:24:55 he's gone 23:25:10 SEE IF I CAN'T *kickban* 23:25:23 all racists? i didn't even _mention_ him connecting from israel 23:25:30 i didn't either 23:25:33 in fact i only noticed it after typing that 23:25:38 and didn't care 23:25:50 i was just being incomprehensible. as always 23:26:08 of course Slereah has monopoly on such jokes here, that filthy jew. 23:26:20 pikhq: Gah, it doesn't correct aspect ratio by default. 23:26:22 pikhq: How evil. 23:26:59 pikhq: So, uh, is Qt-Raster any good? 23:28:52 what the heck is "glorious matter convert" anyway 23:28:59 * oerjan googles 23:29:17 oerjan: i made it up. 23:29:27 although: great name for a band 23:29:31 The Glorious Matter Convert 23:29:42 not a frequently used phrase, i detect 23:29:56 -!- augur has joined. 23:33:36 "Directer" 23:37:28 night → 23:39:26 elliott: Qt-Raster is shitty. 23:39:31 pikhq: Okay. 23:39:51 elliott: Performance works quite well, but introduces bugs in a very small handful of games. 23:40:06 ... That hardly anybody even cares about. 23:40:14 pikhq: Right now I'm just thinking "Kitten has no shitty sound systems". 23:40:22 Does PulseAudio even run on non-Linux? 23:40:43 Oh joy, it does. 23:40:46 Well, I won't package it. 23:40:46 Ever. 23:40:48 And that's a promise. 23:41:11 Even if it manages to stop sucking? 23:41:24 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:42:00 Admittedly, this is about as likely as my being teleported 2 feet to the left. 23:42:11 pikhq: Even if it stops sucking. 23:42:22 There's another sound system that doesn't suck and it's called everything that isn't PulseAudio. 23:42:58 quintopia: OK, I added the new frames. 23:43:05 quintopia: I can't seem to formulate an opinion, so make your own :P 23:43:24 quintopia: Err, sorry, only the new jumping and falling frames, not crouching or turning. 23:44:13 but how can you jump forcefully without crouching first? 23:44:20 video.windowed.hwFilter = 0^M 23:44:20 video.windowed.swFilter = 0^M 23:44:20 elliott: How do you feel about JACK? 23:44:21 pikhq: ? :P 23:44:33 pikhq: JACK is uh, I have no problem with it although apparently it's a bitch and... why do you need it? 23:44:42 It has low latency. 23:44:44 ...So does OSS. 23:44:47 elliott: I was honestly just wondering about your opinion on it. 23:44:52 pikhq: I was speaking hypothetically. 23:44:52 That's seriously *it*. 23:45:02 i.e. an arbitrary "you" 23:45:06 Ah. 23:45:29 Well, JACK lets you do this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Jack-connecting_audio.png 23:45:32 :P 23:45:39 As far as I can tell, JACK is what you use when you use ALSA and thus your latency sucks :P 23:45:42 ...plus that. 23:45:47 I mean, use it if you want, I won't begrudge you :P 23:48:09 pikhq: God, PulseAudio just ... sucks. 23:48:19 I... it literally makes good audio impossible. 23:49:14 The following packages will be REMOVED: 23:49:14 indicator-sound{a} libcanberra-pulse{a} pulseaudio{p} 23:49:14 pulseaudio-esound-compat{a} pulseaudio-module-bluetooth{a} 23:49:14 pulseaudio-module-gconf{a} pulseaudio-module-x11{a} ubuntu-desktop{a} 23:49:14 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 8 to remove and 0 not upgraded. 23:49:15 Need to get 0B of archives. After unpacking 3,858kB will be freed. 23:49:17 Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] 23:49:19 pikhq: Do I fucking do it? 23:49:22 Hmm. Seems that the only real options out there are JACK and PulseAudio for something with an audio *server*. Aaaand JACK seems to be the only usable one. 23:49:49 And since there's not many reasons to use JACK, clearly OSS is the only sound system. 23:50:23 pikhq: Do I fucking do it? 23:50:48 elliott: YES 23:51:02 pikhq: But dude, my volume control. 23:51:31 http://0pointer.de/lennart/lennart.png <-- needs anal raping so he can know what horrors he has unleashed upon the world 23:51:34 DAMN YOU LENNART POETTERING 23:51:37 DAAAMN YOUUUU 23:52:05 "Thanks to PulseAudio, the Linux audio experience is becoming more context-aware. For example, if a video is running in one application the system should now automatically reduce the volume of everything else and increase it when the video is finished." 23:52:07 Well it doesn't. 23:52:08 So fuck you. 23:52:40 Sound system wars1 23:52:41 ! 23:52:43 [[However, the future of PCM audio is floating points. Mixing them in kernel space is problematic because (at least on Linux) FP in kernel space is a no-no. Also, the kernel people made clear more than once that maths/decoding/encoding like this should happen in userspace. Quite honestly, doing the mixing in kernel space is probably one of the primary reasons why I think that OSS4 is a bad idea. The fancier your mixing gets (i.e. including resamp 23:52:44 ling, upmixing, downmixing, DRC, ...) the more difficulties you will have to move such a complex, time-intensive code into the kernel.]] 23:52:46 pikhq: Translation: 23:53:02 pikhq: "I'm not as good at programming kernel code as the OSSv4 developers, so clearly you should use PulseAudio instead." 23:53:09 "OSS4 does a lot of signal processing (resampling, mixing) in the kernel. That is a big no-no, it's verboten in the Linux world." 23:53:11 Fuck you it works well. 23:53:15 "The kernel is supposed to include drivers, not processing algorithms." 23:53:23 The kernel is supposed to not suck, too. It doesn't. 23:53:31 "In its current form OSS4 would have exactly zero chance to even be considered by the Linux kernel people." 23:53:41 Other things that have zero chance of being considered by Linux kernel people: Sanity 23:53:48 "If you'd rip out all the mixing, resampling, conversion, remapping then not much would be left of OSS4, except that a slightly updated OSS3 API." 23:53:58 Whereas with PulseAudio, if you removed all the suck, you'd have a README. If that. 23:54:04 "Then, the driver support in ALSA these days is actually much better than OSS4 since a lot of hw manufacturers nowadays work with the Linux community to improve the in-kernel drivers." 23:54:08 So since ALSA is so great, use PulseAudio. 23:54:12 "OSS4 doesn't have that advantage." 23:54:16 I am high as a kite. 23:54:21 pikhq: I will stop now but RRRRGH 23:55:14 pikhq: http://cdn.idg.com.au/gim/id/20602/res/18 dear god a little kid owns my linux sound system 23:55:20 why can't it be a competent little kid, like me 23:55:36 I hereby reassign my obligatory I am high as a kite quote. 23:55:38 "It's pretty obvious that the complaints and criticisms about PulseAudio you can hear in some forums are not really shared by the vast majority of technical people" 23:55:38 drivers ARE processing algorithms JEEZ 23:55:40 I am high as a kite. 23:56:01 ("Translation of ... to Plain English" articles are, by law, required to translate at least one quote to "I am high as a kite.") 23:56:27 elliott: That's... Pretty damned ridiculous. 23:56:40 pikhq: ITT: NetBSD 23:56:46 Less users, less crazy! 23:56:51 elliott: Isn't mixing closer to the actual output significantly better? 23:56:59 pikhq: but dude, Linux is a kernel of PURITY 23:57:05 oh yeah real pure 23:57:14 so pure it gets me high as a kite 23:57:17 before every commit, Torvalds prints out the diff 23:57:19 eats it 23:57:24 and then, when he feels the need to shit 23:57:27 he gets a blanket 23:57:33 and he shits out a pure brick of light 23:57:41 he then flattens this brick with a rolling pin 23:57:44 and scans it 23:57:55 then he uses an algorithm to convert this pure fecal brick of light back into a diff 23:57:58 and commits that 23:58:02 this is why Linux is perfect 23:58:19 because of Linus Torvalds' digestive system and anus 23:58:37 http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html 23:58:38 pikhq: ok totally removing pulseaudio 23:58:40 my system will break now 23:58:58 I love how going from libalsa to kernel-level ALSA has the highest latency always.