←2010-11-06 2010-11-07 2010-11-08→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:03 <elliott> (Do it like smallpox, keep the last remaining mosquitos in tiny metal cages forever! Mwahaha!)
00:00:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ah, but nothing eats smallpox.
00:00:20 <elliott> pikhq: There are a lot of people in the field advocating for the eradication of mosquitos.
00:00:45 <elliott> Wikipedia cites http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100721/full/466432a.html.
00:00:48 <pikhq> How do you get around how many species use mosquitos as a food source?
00:01:27 <pikhq> Well, aside from just saying "Well, nothing eats *primarily* mosquitos, so fuck it"?
00:01:39 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100721/full/466432a.html
00:01:54 <elliott> When I link to a URL, I won't continue talking until everyone reads it :P
00:01:58 <elliott> Otherwise that's just pointless.
00:02:19 <pikhq> elliott: I've read said article before.
00:03:17 <pikhq> elliott: It would seem their standpoint is "doesn't hurt anything humans depend on too badly. Fuck biodiversity."
00:03:39 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, according to *my* eyes, it said "Shit would adapt."
00:05:16 <elliott> pikhq: But, uh... if you give me a choice between no motherfucking mosquitos and hence no motherfucking mosquito diseases and ~biodiversity~...
00:05:27 <elliott> I might just make the exception.
00:06:31 <pikhq> elliott: How's about we just move everyone off of Earth.
00:06:34 <pikhq> I like that plan.
00:06:56 <elliott> pikhq: Sure; meanwhile, in the realm of things that are, in the current climate, actually feasible... we could just kill all the mosquitos.
00:07:09 <pikhq> Or all the humans.
00:07:19 -!- augur has joined.
00:07:20 <pikhq> (would take just a few seconds, Obama!)
00:10:50 <oklopol> killing all the humans wouldn't harm humans?
00:11:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:12:27 <elliott> oklopol: nothing could harm us, we'd be dead! DUH
00:12:51 <pikhq> oklopol: Oh, it would harm the humans. But end all possibility for future harm.
00:13:17 <zzo38> I am not advocating for the eradication of mosquitos. I am against it. If you eradicate any species, extincting people (humans) is the only thing that would work, and it is not time for that either.
00:13:40 <pikhq> zzo38: I'm 100% in favor of eradicating many species of disease.
00:13:45 <pikhq> Say, each and every one of the fuckers.
00:15:03 <Gregor> It is the nineties, and there is time for effing up all ecosystems by removing diseases.
00:15:42 <calamous> I defer to Carl Segan on this matter
00:15:58 <calamous> Sagan*
00:16:09 <pikhq> Gregor: How would it eff up ecosystems to remove all human diseases?
00:16:09 <zzo38> I say no! It won't work! You will just mess up everything, regardless of whether or not it is successful.
00:16:17 <pikhq> Gregor: Aside from the harm that humans themselves would cause?
00:16:27 <Gregor> pikhq: Many "human" diseases infect more than just humans.
00:16:31 <elliott> zzo38: You might get listened to more if you gave arguments, btw.
00:16:55 <pikhq> Gregor: Bah. We should move everyone off of the planet, and be disease-free space people.
00:17:09 <Gregor> Perfect.
00:17:10 <calamous> pikhq: Removing all the human diseases may lead to human overpopulation.
00:17:11 <pikhq> ...
00:17:16 <pikhq> IN SPACE!
00:17:19 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow).
00:17:58 <pikhq> calamous: Only a bit faster than what we already have...
00:18:08 <elliott> overpopulation isn't a problem with space colonisation
00:18:26 <pikhq> calamous: Honestly, we're going to be pushing the point where food, water, and space are issues in not too long.
00:18:43 <pikhq> (and, of course, have in certain regions already)
00:18:46 <elliott> Hey pikhq!
00:18:48 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/QeMZ
00:18:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, human is the biggest problem of the world, so if anyone who disagrees that you should not mess up the everything else nature, those people can be put to space, and then die from lack of air and gravity and stuff (unless they already have protection against these things)
00:19:04 <elliott> pikhq: Click dat link.
00:19:08 <pikhq> elliott: Nice.
00:19:24 <elliott> zzo38: i strongly disagree that humans are the biggest problem in the world.
00:19:24 <calamous> pikhq: Having diseases exist are good because humans with weak immune systems won't pass their genes on.
00:19:37 <Sgeo> Is zzo38 a VHEMT person?
00:19:41 <elliott> also, you're foolish for thinking that pikhq didn't mean to a planet.
00:19:59 <elliott> calamous: without disease there is no use for an immune system.
00:20:12 <elliott> calamous: also, what about all the diseases people get after they're 35 or so?
00:20:35 <calamous> elliott: diseases will always form, there will be new diseases and if your immune system hasn't fought a dieases which is similar, it will take its toll on you.
00:20:36 <olsner> you mean diseases like AGE?
00:20:38 <zzo38> elliott: If there is no diseases, then maybe diseases will be made up by the new environment and stuff, or even by other people.
00:20:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, they can't care for their children and grandchildren.
00:20:46 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I would also accept colonisation of unplaneted space. Except that a lack of gravity well makes things much harder.
00:20:47 <elliott> olsner: there is no such thing as "dying of old age" :)
00:20:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is a VHEMT person?
00:21:09 <elliott> calamous: Careful with "always" there.
00:21:24 <Sgeo> Believes that people shouldn't breed, and humanity should go extinct (gradually, as no new people replace the dying)
00:21:33 <Sgeo> And not forcing it
00:21:40 <elliott> I can perfectly well imagine a scenario in which humans are completely free of disease.
00:21:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the "gradually" is disputable.
00:21:56 <elliott> zzo38: VHEMT = Voluntary Human Extension Movement.
00:22:00 <calamous> elliott: as time goes to infinity the chances of it happening increase.
00:22:02 <elliott> zzo38: VHEMT = Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.
00:22:04 <elliott> zzo38: I misspelled.
00:22:09 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure they're opposed to mass murdering everyone
00:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> When the entire population consists of people over 60, you can't run a society.
00:22:19 <Sgeo> Ah, true
00:22:21 <elliott> calamous: that is not true at all and shows your lack of understanding of probability
00:22:22 <Sgeo> Hmm
00:22:27 <pikhq> calamous: Except that humans kinda modify their own environment. :)
00:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not to any degree required for the billions left alive.
00:22:30 <Sgeo> Well, depends how healthy those 60 year olds are
00:22:41 <elliott> calamous: you can't win the debate by pulling out "as time goes to infinity"...
00:22:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: I am believe a bit different. In my opinion it is your individual choice breed or not. But you have to accept the consequences either way whatever it is.
00:23:07 <calamous> elliott: why not?
00:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but eventually there will be a point at which there aren't enough people able to operate things.
00:23:19 <elliott> calamous: As time goes to infinity your mother. Did I just win the argument, then?
00:23:37 <calamous> elliott: I used the word "always" to mean extremely probable in that previous context.
00:23:50 <calamous> elliott: I don't think its so black and white and "winning" or "losing" the argument
00:23:54 <pikhq> calamous: As time goes to infinity my pants leap 2 feet to the left. Therefore, I am not wearing any pants.
00:24:00 <Sgeo> I don't think they particularly thought of that
00:24:10 <elliott> calamous: Actually, I believe that the most likely scenario in the future, whatever it is, will have no diseases affecting humans.
00:24:19 <elliott> Since I view human extinction as quite likely.
00:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> You didn't a while ago...
00:24:37 <Sgeo> elliott, on what timeframe... if I'm not still on ignore
00:24:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sure I did.
00:25:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And then your opinions changed. I know.
00:25:10 <elliott> I didn't say I think it was the most likely outcome.
00:25:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, they didn't.
00:25:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo asks on what timeframes.
00:25:20 <elliott> I've thought this for ages.
00:25:24 <elliott> Sgeo is on ignore.
00:25:40 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it's either we'll have human extinction or we'll become highly aware of the consequences of running our society and actually deal with it...
00:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but I'm vaguely interested and I feel slightly sorry for him.
00:26:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could use COBOL to code the Singularity. Then we'd have no disease.
00:26:05 <elliott> And it'd be readable, too.
00:26:05 <pikhq> Here's hoping we don't keep the "rape the earth" thing up; it'll fuck us in the end.
00:26:15 <calamous> I think nature is too complex for anyone here to reason about correctly.
00:26:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Who is this calamous person anyway?
00:26:34 <elliott> calamous: Argumentum ad "oh, it's beyond our understanding; we can't use logic and reason to argue about it".
00:26:43 <elliott> calamous: I reject your pseudo-fallacy.
00:26:48 <elliott> (Meta-fallacy?)
00:27:20 <pikhq> calamous: So, you're anti-science then.
00:27:25 <Sgeo> "What old languages are still in use in some way shape or form?" "COBOL" "You must love COBOL"
00:27:34 <calamous> pikhq: Why would you suggest that?
00:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> calamous, because science is *about* reasoning about nature correctly.
00:28:06 <pikhq> Science is based around the idea that we *can* make empirical observations about the world around us and reason about it correctly.
00:28:08 <calamous> pikhq: I'm not anti-science, I'm completely pro-science. However, I think the arguments and models that these statements are made in are too limited to be of any use.
00:28:10 <Phantom_Hoover> You mustn't have been listening in school.
00:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> calamous, I suppose you're an anthropogenic global warming denialist, then?
00:29:20 <zzo38> It reminds me of some fake news show on CBC radio where the entire universe was destroyed. One guy wanted to go to the zoo but now they complain they can't, because the zoo doesn't exist, and neither do they, so therefore they are unable to complain, either.
00:29:40 <calamous> Phantom_Hoover: I am not. I believe that it is caused by anthropogenic effecs (i.e. humans polluting)
00:30:05 <zzo38> calamous: Science is good, but science is not everything, there is also philosophy.
00:30:08 <Phantom_Hoover> calamous, but the climate is so COMPLEX! How can we reason about it correctly?
00:30:21 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, there is also MATHEMATICS!
00:31:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes, of course.
00:31:33 <oklopol> rape victims always become rapists in the end
00:31:36 <oklopol> wait
00:31:36 <calamous> Phantom_Hoover: Many things are complex, and there are many different models to reason about nature and climate. I believe the models, heurostics, and methods used by the climate scientists are suffecient to conclude that humans have this effect. However, I think the models, and methods used here to reason about deases are insuffiecent to caputre its compelxity
00:31:38 <oklopol> i'm scrolled up
00:31:42 <oklopol> "<pikhq> Here's hoping we don't keep the "rape the earth" thing up; it'll fuck us in the end."
00:32:05 <calamous> Diseases*
00:33:17 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6E5pfJEROA
00:33:28 <elliott> calamous: Actually, my prediction that it is unlikely that disease will affect humans in the future involves no model of diseases.
00:34:26 <calamous> elliott: ok, if you think your reasoning and logic to reach this conclusion is rigorous I respect your result.
00:34:36 <elliott> pikhq: Quick! Name some common things a software install procedure might do rather than copying files... i.e. what should I be prepared to do when I uninstall, my mind's drawing a blank at bad software :-)
00:34:38 <calamous> Phantom_Hoover: You asked who I was, but who are you?
00:35:06 <Phantom_Hoover> calamous, just this guy, you know?
00:35:07 <elliott> calamous: It's more back-of-the-envelope: I think that either human extinction or something that will make disease completely irrelevant -- e.g. Singularity -- is likely to happen.
00:35:56 <Sgeo> Wait
00:36:02 <Sgeo> They actually serve that food?
00:36:03 <calamous> elliott: I think that human extinction is a definate posability
00:36:19 <elliott> (*definite)
00:36:48 <coppro> I think that human extinction is a definite integral
00:36:58 <pikhq> elliott: Create users.
00:37:18 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, I wouldn't feel comfortable deleting users in an uninstall procedure
00:37:19 <pikhq> elliott: Edit config files.
00:37:20 <calamous> coppro: Are there two different spellings of the word that sounds like definate?
00:37:28 <elliott> config files, ok, there's little i can do about that :)
00:37:43 <Sgeo> Anything bigger than the Single Bypass Burger is too big for my jaws
00:37:44 <coppro> calamous: definate is not a word
00:37:44 <elliott> calamous: definate isn't the correct spelling, definite is. not that it matters
00:37:45 <pikhq> elliott: Replace a version of a library with a different one.
00:37:54 <pikhq> (Looking at *you*, Nvidia!)
00:37:56 <elliott> pikhq: I mean stuff outside "change shit in $PREFIX".
00:38:01 <elliott> pikhq: I set --prefix=/opt/pkgname.
00:38:05 <elliott> Hopefully nothing would do *that*.
00:38:32 <calamous> elliott: strange, I could have sword I cliked my spell checker when there was red underlying on it. lol, I may have clicked add to dictionary
00:38:37 <calamous> sworn*
00:39:07 <calamous> Anyway, I apoligize for my spelling. just read what I say outloud to figure out what I was going for.
00:39:12 <pikhq> elliott: Some packages insist on a specific install dir.
00:39:25 <pikhq> elliott: IRAF, for instance, goes into /iraf.
00:39:28 <elliott> pikhq: such packages are not currently supported by inst(1) :)
00:39:31 <pikhq> Why? FUCK YOU.
00:39:48 <elliott> cal153: *apologise, *out loud. I do try not to be a pedant, I swear!
00:39:50 <pikhq> Okay, so you're going to say "fuck retarded shit"? That solves your problems.
00:40:22 <oklopol> "<calamous> Phantom_Hoover: You asked who I was, but who are you?" <<< a regular
00:40:34 <pikhq> Hmm. Well, Debian doesn't have support for it, so I think you're good.
00:40:43 <elliott> pikhq: Have support for what? IRAF?
00:40:47 <pikhq> elliott: Yuh.
00:41:01 <pikhq> I think you're allowed to not package things Debian refuses to.
00:41:30 <elliott> pikhq: Right now I still have to extend it -- to work with stuff that does stupid stuff, to be robust, to support repositories, and also to support non-autoconf based build systems (automatically. Yes, automatically.)
00:41:36 <elliott> pikhq: For instance, git has a plain Makefile system.
00:41:40 <elliott> So instead of
00:41:44 <elliott> $ inst ... --configure-args
00:41:45 <elliott> You'll be doing#
00:41:47 <elliott> *doing
00:41:53 <elliott> $ inst ... foo=bar
00:41:55 <pikhq> ... Non-autoconf build systems automatically?
00:42:04 <elliott> pikhq: Also hopefully I can detect that there's a "prefix" var and have it pass on prefix=/opt/git-version.
00:42:06 <elliott> pikhq: Yes.
00:42:07 <elliott> Yes indeed.
00:42:15 <elliott> I refuse to let any system confound my program.
00:42:15 <pikhq> That's going to be impossible in the general case. Feasible for well-behaved Makefiles, though.
00:42:19 <elliott> Well, yes.
00:42:33 <elliott> You could even rename --prefix to --prefox in autoconf and this wouldn't work; who cares? :)
00:42:39 <pikhq> I suggest you allow a build script for the completely whacko packages out there.
00:42:52 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, those won't be part of inst, which works without any third-party materials instead :P
00:42:58 <elliott> pikhq: A lot of stuff I do here might actually be reused in the *actual* package manager.
00:42:59 <pikhq> Ah.
00:43:03 <elliott> Talk-to-autoconf logic and the like.
00:43:14 <calamous> So, sorry to interrupt the flow of the conversation. But can anyone explain this: root@neutrino:~# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/vdb1 bs=1M count=16 conv=sync
00:43:15 <calamous> 16+0 records in
00:43:15 <calamous> 16+0 records out
00:43:15 <calamous> 16777216 bytes (17 MB) copied, 1.73958 s, 9.6 MB/s
00:43:15 <calamous> root@neutrino:~# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/vdb bs=1M count=16 conv=sync
00:43:16 <calamous> 16+0 records in
00:43:18 <calamous> 16+0 records out
00:43:20 <calamous> 16777216 bytes (17 MB) copied, 0.210978 s, 79.5 MB/s
00:43:24 <pikhq> Okay, then I suggest you use this sort of thing as an automatic package-creator then. :)
00:43:31 <calamous> That is, why its slow to write to the partition, but fastre to write to the disk?
00:43:55 <elliott> calamous: Maybe /dev/vdb has some crazy kind of partition table where a partition is, I don't know, at every fibonacci byte and no others?
00:44:05 <elliott> pikhq: This sort of thing, yes, but nothing this crazy :P
00:44:16 <fizzie> Maybe some sort of unaligned-write slowness too?
00:44:22 <elliott> Ah, probably that.
00:44:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:44:27 <elliott> calamous: What is /dev/vdb?
00:44:36 <pikhq> calamous: Linux is probably already aware that you zero-filled a lot of it.
00:44:41 <calamous> its a virtio disk (I'm running debian inside qemu-kvm)
00:44:56 <calamous> pikhq: Nope, I can repeat this experiment many times with the same result
00:45:14 <pikhq> calamous: Virtio is doing something bizarre.
00:45:26 <calamous> fizzie: the unaligned write may be an issue
00:45:54 <calamous> pikhq: Thats what I thought, but not even using virtio, I can make the same results happen ndb
00:46:03 <calamous> qemu-nbd
00:46:27 <calamous> instead of /dev/vdb1 it will be /dev/ndb0p1
00:46:57 <calamous> fizzie: both the virtio and the ndb have qemu qcow2 as its backend, I wonder if the partition just isn't aligned. I'm going to try and check that, thatsk for the idea
00:47:32 <elliott> pikhq: Spot the bug: if '--help' or '-h' in configure_args:
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00:48:56 <fizzie> elliott: If you want to write things like that, maybe you should use Plain English instead!
00:49:21 <elliott> fizzie: Icon can do it!
00:49:27 <elliott> Well, it can do (x | 5) > y.
00:49:41 <calamous> fizzie: holy crap! I think you're right. I had fdisk align it differently, and I'm getting much better speeds.
00:49:44 <elliott> One would assume it could also do its equivalent of ('--help' | '-h') in configure_args.
00:49:50 <elliott> calamous: SSD by any chance?
00:50:15 <calamous> elliott: nope just a regular HD. I do have an SDD and I had to partition it with fdisk -S 32 -H 32 to get the right alignment for the erasure size
00:50:25 <elliott> yeah
00:51:51 <fizzie> It could be something gcow2-related sillitude when it comes to alignment; I don't really know the details on how it works. Still, a pretty dramatic difference there.
00:52:06 <elliott> *qcow2
00:52:18 <elliott> Fun fact: There is a semi-sort-of-popular piece of software written in Icon!
00:52:19 <elliott> noweb.
00:52:22 <elliott> Yes, noweb is written in Icon./
00:52:25 <elliott> s/\/$//
00:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, that bothered me.
00:52:59 <fizzie> elliott: Well, fortunately "if any(x in configure_args for x in ('--help', '-h')):" is oh-so-elegant also.
00:53:12 <elliott> if '--help' in configure_args or '-h' in configure_args:
00:53:12 <elliott> :P
00:53:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ?
00:53:28 <fizzie> Noooo, but you're repeating configure_args!
00:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that Icon was a dependency of noweb.
00:53:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why bother?
00:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I am a bothered person!
00:54:25 <elliott> Things that confuse me: Programs that take longer to install than build.
00:55:39 <elliott> ...Wait, what?
00:55:55 * elliott debugs
00:56:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, Icon is awesome!
00:56:49 <elliott> Equivalent code:
00:56:51 <elliott> every k := i to j do
00:56:51 <elliott> write(someFunction(k))
00:56:52 <elliott> every write(someFunction(i to j))
00:56:55 <elliott> Those two, that is.
00:57:05 <olsner> gcc is 50% slower than clang at building bochs: takes 15s instead of 10s!
00:57:13 <elliott> olsner: X-D
00:58:05 <pikhq> Is Bochs really that small?
00:58:21 <olsner> and the ./configure takes about 10s for both
00:58:31 <elliott> pikhq: I am fairly sure that Bochs is one gigantic if/else if/else structure.
00:58:34 <elliott> It's too slow to be a switch.
00:58:59 <pikhq> GCC will translate gigantic if/else if/else branches to a jump table.
00:59:27 <fizzie> Today I tried to install "gv" from macports: it insisted on installing (by compiling from sources) both Perl 5.8 and Python 2.6 as dependencies.
00:59:28 <olsner> well, I haven't enabled all the features - enabling x86-64 added like 2s on the compile time
01:00:19 <elliott> pikhq: -O0!
01:00:27 -!- augur has joined.
01:00:36 <elliott> fizzie: Ruby indirectly depends on Perl. :)
01:00:39 <pikhq> elliott: -O-1!
01:00:56 <elliott> pikhq: Shouldn't that be -P1 for pessimise?
01:00:56 <pikhq> The deöptimiser!
01:01:13 <fizzie> pikhq: Not if the if-else branches test against == foo[x] for a non-constant foo, I wouldn't think.
01:01:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:01:50 <elliott> fizzie: which would require deliberate and wilful stupidity :D
01:02:12 <fizzie> elliott: But then you can reconfigure your opcodes at runtime, you see!
01:02:29 <elliott> assign mov==xor;
01:02:30 <elliott> MWAHAHA
01:03:03 <oklopol> i'm a balloon i'm a shoe i'm a mice lamp made of poo
01:03:37 <oklopol> i just realized you need to say BALloon or that doesn't work
01:03:49 <elliott> Oh oklopol.
01:03:57 <oklopol> ball loon
01:04:03 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently, "make install" can fail if you redirect stdout and stderr to a bit bucket.
01:04:04 <elliott> pikhq: Who knew?
01:04:10 <oklopol> "<elliott> Oh oklopol."
01:04:15 <oklopol> that's a weird response
01:04:24 <elliott> I'm sticking to it :P
01:04:27 <oklopol> :D
01:04:41 <oklopol> in my defense, you are talking about really complicated stuff
01:05:45 <elliott> lawl
01:06:53 <elliott> pikhq: I'm serious.
01:07:31 * elliott tries something else
01:08:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, what was your niche here?
01:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, *is
01:10:11 <oklopol> i would say i'm the oklopol of this channel
01:10:39 <elliott> wow, Phantom_Hoover is post-oklopol?
01:10:40 <elliott> really?
01:10:47 <elliott> i can barely comprehend the concept
01:10:49 <oklopol> just like elliott is the elliot, oerjan is the oerjan, and you are a guy
01:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> post-oklopol?
01:10:55 <elliott> *elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott
01:10:58 <elliott> oerjan WAS rip :(
01:11:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You came here after oklopol stopped coming here.
01:11:04 <oklopol> *tt
01:11:07 <oklopol> okay sorry
01:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I don't recall him not having been here for a significant period of time.
01:11:41 <elliott> Um, months, this year.
01:11:55 <oklopol> i'm barely noticeable
01:12:20 <elliott> brb
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01:17:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, so, you were absent?
01:19:36 <oklopol> elliott seems to think so
01:20:35 <oklopol> i think i was away most of the summer?
01:20:38 <oklopol> dunno realyl
01:20:39 <oklopol> really
01:20:58 <oklopol> i don't really get time
01:21:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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01:30:23 <nooga> "Hilter be Damned. This was our sign since 1922."
01:30:37 <nooga> http://www.sharenator.com/All_the_world_loved_Swastika_before_WWII/
01:31:23 <oklopol> orly.
01:32:17 <elliott> old
01:32:47 <nooga> i just can't unassign swastika=hitler in my brain
01:33:07 <nooga> unny
01:33:12 <nooga> f*
01:33:21 <oklopol> me neither, that's why that was interesting when i learned it when i was 2
01:34:00 <oklopol> i want to be an APPROACHABLE ass. that's why i'm so confusing.
01:34:15 <oklopol> "approachable ass" sounds a bit questionable now that i think about it
01:34:23 <nooga> right...
01:37:28 <Gregor> This episode of Dudley Do-Right had continuity with the LAST episode of Dudley Do-Right.
01:37:30 <Gregor> That's ... all wrong!
01:38:50 <oklopol> so basically now they can't change the characters or anything, ever, because they'll have to end to story with what happened before this episode
01:39:12 <oklopol> and introduce time machines at some point
01:39:25 <Sgeo> Dudley Do-Right?
01:40:11 * Sgeo wikis
01:40:26 * Sgeo YouTubes
01:41:08 <Gregor> oklopol: By "last" I mean "previous"
01:41:47 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's part of Rocky and Bullwinkle, which is on Hulu now :P
01:42:45 <elliott> oklopol: that would be amazing.
01:42:55 <oklopol> Gregor: thanks for clearing that up
01:46:36 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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01:47:15 <Sgeo> Gregor, I am sufficiently amused by this
01:47:17 <Sgeo> >.>
01:47:46 <pikhq> I ♥ Rocky and Bullwinkle.
01:49:18 <elliott> Hey pikhq.
01:49:22 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/OLIG
01:49:41 <elliott> pikhq: Am I, or am I not, a god among men?
01:51:01 <pikhq> elliott: That is awesome.
01:51:18 <elliott> pikhq: QUICK LINK ME SOME SOFTWARE.
01:52:18 <pikhq> elliott: Go go ultimate test! ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcc/gcc-4.5.1/gcc-core-4.5.1.tar.bz2
01:52:35 <elliott> pikhq: Hahaha no fuck you I don't have that kind of CPU. (Okay, maybe later.)
01:52:42 <elliott> pikhq: I am not sure curl does ftp:// :P
01:52:42 <pikhq> Oh, fine.
01:52:45 <elliott> I guess it does.
01:52:49 <elliott> pikhq: Link me to Emacs or something.
01:52:50 <Sgeo> I think elliott might like to know that there's a new Sam Hughes NaNoWriMo
01:52:59 <pikhq> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/bash/bash-4.1.tar.gz
01:53:07 <elliott> Okay, sure.
01:53:10 * elliott uses http:// instead for now
01:53:30 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, you can pass configure arguments by just ... giving them to inst.
01:53:34 <elliott> (Have to be after the URL, though.)
01:53:52 <elliott> pikhq: When I support non-autoconf builds, that'll instead be make arguments. And indeed, --help will probably cat INSTALL; failing that, README.
01:54:27 <elliott> pikhq: Let's see if bash works :P
01:54:39 <pikhq> elliott: That is definitely an awesome thing you have gotten there.
01:55:03 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ /opt/bash-4.1/bin/bash
01:55:03 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ echo $0
01:55:03 <elliott> /opt/bash-4.1/bin/bash
01:55:04 <pikhq> elliott: Even as it stands, it's quite nice as a supplement to a distro's package manager.
01:55:08 <elliott> pikhq: Well, that was painless.
01:55:27 <zzo38> nooga: I can unassign swastika=hitler in my mind. To me, only the 45-degrees reversed swastika is Hitler's swastika. The normal swastika is horizontal and vertical lines and is unrelated to Hitler.
01:55:31 <elliott> pikhq: I'm gonna try Emacs now.
01:55:48 <pikhq> In a single day you have made a package manager that has packages for everything using autoconf. :P
01:56:15 <elliott> pikhq: Without dependencies :P
01:56:22 <pikhq> Eh.
01:56:31 <pikhq> Slackware doesn't do dependencies. Fits right in.
01:56:32 <elliott> pikhq: EMACS TIME
01:56:46 <elliott> :~$ inst http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/emacs-23.2.tar.bz2
01:56:47 <elliott> * Downloading emacs 23.2...
01:56:47 <elliott> ### 4.8%
01:56:49 <elliott> This may take a while.
01:56:52 <elliott> Uhh, wow, what happened there.
01:57:12 <elliott> You know what it should look like :P##
01:57:13 <elliott> *:P
01:58:00 <coppro> win 25
01:58:15 <elliott> coppro: fail
01:58:18 <elliott> coppro: (why do you have that many windows?)
01:58:29 <elliott> pikhq: I misunderestimated emacs! It errors out and it turns out my error-printing code is BORKEN because Python is made of liquid suck.
01:58:39 <coppro> elliott: cuz i am awesome
01:58:46 <elliott> pikhq: (Python's "make install" fails if you do stdout=subprocess.PIPE. I'm serious.)
01:58:55 <elliott> pikhq: (It works with stdout=open('/dev/null', 'w'))
01:59:05 <elliott> pikhq: Welp, dropping Python support for Emacs debugging temporarily :P
01:59:32 <elliott> pikhq: Why the heck do downloads with curl go faster the second time?
01:59:35 <elliott> It isn't caching it or anything.
02:00:30 <elliott> pikhq: Probably I'm just missing a dependency.
02:00:35 <elliott> pikhq: Yup!
02:00:39 <elliott> configure: error: The following required libraries were not found:
02:00:39 <elliott> libXpm libgif/libungif libtiff
02:00:39 <elliott> Maybe some development libraries/packages are missing?
02:00:39 <elliott> If you don't want to link with them give
02:00:39 <elliott> --with-xpm=no --with-gif=no --with-tiff=no
02:00:40 * elliott installs them
02:00:50 <elliott> pikhq: Actually I really should cache the tarballs. But I don't, so ha!
02:00:55 <Gregor> Buying a transparent melodica was not a great idea.
02:01:03 <elliott> Gregor: "It murdered my family."
02:01:13 <Gregor> elliott: It's full of spit.
02:01:17 <Gregor> elliott: Clearly-visible spit.
02:01:22 <coppro> also <3 the Look Around You videos
02:01:28 <Gregor> elliott: Which can only be spit, because it's a friggin' aerophone.
02:01:33 <elliott> Gregor: ew
02:01:40 <elliott> coppro: First series or second?
02:02:02 <coppro> elliott: I just youtube them, so I don't know the distinction
02:02:18 <elliott> coppro: First series is the ones that look like school videos; second series is like a magazine show.
02:02:51 <elliott> pikhq: Let's try that again.
02:02:54 <Sgeo> Gregor, http://qntm.org/mcadamis
02:03:29 <Gregor> Sgeo: tl;dr
02:04:01 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:04:17 <elliott> Gregor: What is it?
02:04:38 -!- Sasha has joined.
02:04:48 <coppro> elliott: ah. first then.
02:05:14 <elliott> coppro: good; they're better
02:05:25 <elliott> coppro: although the second series contains the gem "Thanks, Tchaikovsky. Thaikovsky."
02:05:38 <elliott> coppro: (talking to the holographic resurrection of Tchaikovsky, who is judging the music contest)
02:06:45 <Gregor> Huh. The easily-removable case seems to serve no purpose other than catching an absurd amount of spit.
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02:07:06 <elliott> Gregor: It's the spitcase.
02:07:40 <Sgeo> Somebody's baby is crying. Is it yours?
02:12:19 <elliott> pikhq:
02:12:19 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ inst http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/emacs-23.2.tar.bz2* Downloading emacs 23.2...
02:12:19 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
02:12:19 <elliott> * Configuring emacs 23.2...
02:12:19 <elliott> * Building emacs 23.2...
02:12:20 <elliott> * Installing emacs 23.2...
02:12:22 <elliott> * Installed emacs 23.2.
02:12:24 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ /opt/emacs-23.2/bin/emacs -nw
02:12:26 <elliott> pikhq: That was real difficult, that.
02:13:55 <elliott> pikhq: Also works without -nw; GTK and all.
02:14:11 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls -l /opt
02:14:11 <elliott> total 12
02:14:11 <elliott> drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 4096 Nov 7 00:54 bash-4.1
02:14:11 <elliott> drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 4096 Nov 7 01:07 emacs-23.2
02:14:11 <elliott> drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 4096 Nov 7 00:48 Python-2.7
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02:17:10 <elliott> Gregor: Is egobfi autotools-based? :P
02:17:58 <Gregor> No, but it uses autotools.
02:19:11 <elliott> Gregor: That's... what I meant.
02:19:18 <Gregor> I know, I'm just being pedantic :P
02:19:41 <Gregor> ./configure --prefix=/usr && make all install
02:19:42 <Gregor> :P
02:19:54 <elliott> Gregor: That involves downloading and extracting it.
02:20:02 <elliott> Gregor: Erm, link me to the latest egobfi? :P
02:20:15 <Gregor> http://hellifiknow
02:20:22 <elliott> Ah, there it is.
02:20:25 <elliott> [ ] egobf-0.7.1.tar.bz2 28-Jul-2005 09:26 73K tar archive
02:20:55 <elliott> Gregor:
02:20:56 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ inst http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/egobf-0.7.1.tar.bz2
02:20:56 <elliott> * Downloading egobf 0.7.1...
02:20:56 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
02:20:56 <elliott> * Configuring egobf 0.7.1...
02:20:56 <elliott> * Building egobf 0.7.1...
02:20:58 <elliott> * Installing egobf 0.7.1...
02:21:00 <elliott> * Installed egobf 0.7.1.
02:21:02 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls /opt/egobf-0.7.1/bin
02:21:04 <elliott> egobfc egobfc2m egobfi16 egobfi32 egobfi64 egobfi8 egobfi-wib
02:21:06 <elliott> Gregor: I HAVE CONQUERED YOUR PROGRAM
02:21:21 <Gregor> Can it do hg clone? :P
02:21:28 <olsner> grrrr, "interrupt(long mode): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg"
02:23:05 <elliott> Gregor: It will be able to.
02:23:52 <elliott> $ /opt/egobf-0.7.1/bin/egobfc2m
02:23:52 <elliott> ,[.,]
02:23:52 <elliott> Segmentation fault
02:23:56 <elliott> Gregor: AMD64 fuck yeah :P
02:24:09 <Gregor> elliott: WELCOME TO THE PAST!
02:24:22 <Gregor> elliott: Tell me when it can do hg clone :P
02:24:55 <elliott> Gregor: https://codu.org/projects/plof/hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 This would work, except that it'd think it was installing a package called "tip", version [ERROR] :P
02:25:06 <Gregor> Ah :P
02:25:16 <Gregor> I was going to say http://codu.org/projects/fythe/hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 anyway
02:25:32 <elliott> Gregor: I'll add a hackish override, just to prove that it's easy to make *that* work :P
02:25:35 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, is it autotools based?
02:25:45 <elliott> I don't yet support other build systems (but will).
02:25:54 <Gregor> Yeah, but you'll need to autoconf it first, plus the root isn't the root of the hg repo, so you'll fail on SO MANY LEVELS :P
02:26:04 <elliott> Gregor: It has autoreconf.
02:26:09 <elliott> Gregor: So SUCK IT
02:26:12 <elliott> *does
02:26:20 <elliott> if not configure and 'configure.ac' in files:
02:26:20 <elliott> run_silent('autoreconf')
02:26:20 <elliott> # FIXME: possible infinite loop
02:26:20 <elliott> return find_configure(files)
02:26:21 <Gregor> Does it have "figure out that I need to cd hg/cfythe"? :P
02:26:28 <elliott> Gregor: No... not yet :P
02:26:51 <elliott> Gregor: Actually fythe-Repository-73c33b3229c9/cfythe.
02:27:17 <elliott> Gregor: I'll try just plain plof :P
02:27:35 <elliott> Argh, wait, that won't work either because hgwebthing's archive structure sucks.
02:27:38 <elliott> Gregor: Fuck you and your siblings.
02:27:41 <elliott> Use git :P
02:27:43 <Gregor> 8-D
02:27:48 <Gregor> git is for massochists.
02:27:51 <Gregor> *masochists
02:27:59 <elliott> Gregor: As is Unix.
02:28:05 <elliott> And for the same reason.
02:28:06 <elliott> Deal with it :P
02:28:22 <Gregor> Hence why I use GNU/Linux/X11/XFCE, and not UNIX ;)
02:29:01 <elliott> Gregor: GNU on the other hand is for masochistic fools. :)
02:29:28 <pikhq> Gregor: That's not exactly not-UNIX.
02:29:39 <elliott> pikhq: Link me gcc-core, again?
02:30:06 <elliott> Gregor: btw, *Unix; the fact that the name was originally set as <smallcaps>unix</smallcaps> doesn't change the non-typeset name :)
02:30:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
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02:30:14 <elliott> Well.
02:30:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:30:18 <elliott> Gregor: *<smallcaps>Unix</smallcaps>
02:30:23 <elliott> Is how it was originally typeset.
02:30:25 <Gregor> elliott: The fact that it's a trademark does X-P
02:30:37 <elliott> Gregor: I don't consider modern "UNIX" to be very UNIXy; it's just POSIX.
02:30:42 <pikhq> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcc/gcc-4.5.1/gcc-core-4.5.1.tar.bz2
02:30:52 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, modern UNIX sucks, I was using the caps to be an ass :P
02:30:56 * pikhq flips off Win2k again.
02:31:00 <Gregor> In that everything that's officially UNIX sucks.
02:31:02 <zzo38> You have to write it in small caps? So we can make a TeX macro \UNIX which types it in small caps.
02:31:03 <elliott> Gregor: I mean something Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan and McIlroy would be proud of :P
02:31:12 <elliott> zzo38: It's trademarked as just the shouty "UNIX".
02:31:22 <elliott> It is :P
02:31:23 <elliott> And Impact.
02:31:30 <elliott> To portray the... solidity of UNIX.
02:31:34 <elliott> Is that Impact?
02:31:34 <pikhq> It can't autodetect the network card qemu uses.
02:31:37 <elliott> It's a crappy font whatever it is.
02:31:42 <Gregor> pikhq: ne2k
02:31:44 <elliott> pikhq: -win2k-hack for the install btw :P
02:32:09 <pikhq> elliott: I know.
02:32:19 <pikhq> elliott: I've got a Win2K install without network drivers.
02:32:20 <zzo38> I sometimes get lossy connections on IRC.
02:32:31 <pikhq> Well, without functioning network drivers.
02:32:34 <zzo38> PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please review this file: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/litprog/hacks/litproghacks.tex If you have any ideas or any contributions to make, please tell me about it!
02:32:45 * pikhq tries *forcing* it to ne2k_pci...
02:32:54 <elliott> pikhq: Just screening the archive to see if my program will like it :P
02:33:04 <elliott> Yes, it will.
02:33:28 <elliott> pikhq: Downloading :D
02:33:37 <elliott> pikhq: I sure hope gcc builds with -j3.
02:33:44 <elliott> (Yes, I hardcode the -j for now. Shut up :P)
02:33:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:34:03 <zzo38> (Why did it type "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" twice this time?)
02:34:07 <pikhq> Yup, "-net nic,model=ne2k_pci -net user" makes it work.
02:34:17 <pikhq> elliott: :)
02:34:18 <elliott> pikhq: What could possibly go wrong :P
02:34:24 -!- rodgort has joined.
02:34:48 <elliott> pikhq: --configure could go wrong! I wonder what dependencies I'm missing! Time to break Python compilation by making it give debug!
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02:37:40 <elliott> configure: error: Building GCC requires GMP 4.2+, MPFR 2.3.1+ and MPC 0.8.0+.
02:37:40 <elliott> Try the --with-gmp, --with-mpfr and/or --with-mpc options to specify
02:37:40 <elliott> their locations. Source code for these libraries can be found at
02:37:40 <elliott> their respective hosting sites as well as at
02:37:41 <elliott> pikhq: w00t :p
02:37:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
02:38:15 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, WTF is MPC?
02:39:15 <olsner> multi-precision complex?
02:39:22 <elliott> ah
02:39:28 <elliott> probably gmp has it or whatever :P
02:39:33 <elliott> oh wait
02:39:35 <elliott> libmpc{2,-dev}
02:41:57 <elliott> pikhq: * Building gcc-core 4.5.1...
02:42:26 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, yeah, GCC now has dependencies. 3 of them.
02:42:39 <pikhq> Well, 4.
02:42:43 <pikhq> You also need a libc.
02:43:02 <pikhq> ... And a compiler, and a shell, and a Make. And tar and gzip.
02:44:21 <elliott> pikhq: Those are new, eh? :P
02:44:27 <elliott> pikhq: It uses the Boehm GC, doesn't it? Guess it bundles it.
02:45:43 <elliott> pikhq: I wish make(1) had a progress bar :P
02:48:28 <zzo38> elliott: Then put a progress bar?
02:48:55 <elliott> zzo38: That would be basically impossible with make's design. And no, I won't write my own.
02:49:00 <elliott> pikhq: gcc sure does build slowly :P
02:49:03 <pikhq> Yeah, it has Boehm GC built in.
02:49:05 <elliott> pikhq: Man, this is so convenient already.
02:49:13 <olsner> echo "0%"; make; echo "100%"
02:49:18 <elliott> lawl
02:51:21 <olsner> aha, of course it doesn't work - my TSS sets all the RSP:s to 0
02:52:09 <olsner> and after doing some interrupting the stack pointer then ends up inside the memory-mapped apic registers
02:53:09 -!- augur has joined.
02:53:13 <elliott> pikhq: Sweet, make fails.
02:53:34 <elliott> pikhq: Debuggin' time
02:53:56 <olsner> easily accessible build logs will be useful
02:55:15 <elliott> olsner: It prints the output when there are any, it's just that the way I do it inexplicably breaks Python 2.7's install step so that it just sits there forever after installing, doing nothing :P
02:55:21 <elliott> I need to figure something out, but for now...
02:56:25 <olsner> it's probably something obvious that Python is doing wrong (misdetecting whether stdout is a terminal, perhaps)
02:57:49 <elliott> olsner: Python's *make install*?
02:57:52 <elliott> olsner: It's autoconf-based!
02:58:01 <elliott> olsner: And it installs perfectly, it just hangs forever after and I have no idea why.
02:58:37 <elliott> what is wrong with gamers today: "Wait, 100? Like, one hundred? Shit that's ridiculous. And here I was thinking the 1000 save limit was lousy..."
02:58:41 <elliott> (about save limits)
02:59:06 <olsner> it wouldn't surprise me one bit if python has managed to break autoconf :)
03:03:51 <elliott> olsner is my favourite python hater
03:04:17 <elliott> not even /prog/ hates on guido as much as him!
03:04:18 <olsner> thanks :)
03:04:36 <elliott> having said that i have no idea if /prog/ has stopped being limitlessly shitty since the last time
03:06:40 -!- giovanni has joined.
03:06:56 <Sgeo> /prog/?
03:07:01 <Sgeo> /r/programming ?
03:07:26 <elliott> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1289093938/1-40 ;; lawl
03:08:01 <Sgeo> Oh
03:08:08 <Sgeo> I guess elliott isn't really ignoring me, then
03:09:11 <olsner> elliott: I don't understand
03:09:19 <olsner> or it makes no sense
03:09:26 <elliott> olsner: /prog/ rarely makes sense
03:10:48 * Sgeo goes to do homework
03:10:57 <elliott> pikhq: gcc builds so slowly ;__; and I know this will fail which is the worst part
03:12:02 <giovanni> !list
03:12:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: So, definitely not Proggit.
03:12:40 -!- giovanni has quit (Quit: Sto andando via).
03:13:44 <elliott> lawl @ giovanni
03:13:48 <elliott> <pikhq> Sgeo: So, definitely not Proggit.
03:13:57 <elliott> pikhq: Is this Jeopardy?
03:14:04 <elliott> pikhq: Because: "What is a good place to discuss COBOL?"
03:14:36 <pikhq> elliott: :D
03:15:00 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SGEO.
03:15:01 <elliott> pikhq: MAKE GCC BUILD FASTER SO I CAN SEE ITS ERROR
03:15:01 <elliott> wait
03:15:04 <elliott> i think it may have actually frozen
03:15:06 <SGEO> Is XChat's ignore case-sensitive?
03:15:08 -!- SGEO has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:15:12 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
03:15:23 <elliott> Oh fuck it.
03:15:32 <elliott> pikhq: I'm gonna try Perl.
03:15:38 <elliott> Even though I don't think Perl is autotools-based.
03:15:45 <zzo38> If XChat's ignore is case-sensitive, it is not following the IRC protocol properly.
03:15:49 <pikhq> It does do ./configure&&make&&make install though.
03:15:54 <pikhq> The configure script is hand-written.
03:16:48 <olsner> grrrr, it was working all along, but bochs' disassembler reports ud1 the same as ud2
03:17:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:17:02 <elliott> zzo38: Presumably Sgeo talked?
03:17:09 <elliott> I still don't see his messages even with the irritating nick.
03:17:13 <elliott> pikhq: Does --prefix work? :P
03:17:19 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgep.
03:17:25 <Sgep> Does XChat track nick changes?
03:17:28 -!- Sgep has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:17:43 -!- augur has joined.
03:17:47 <Sgeo> Actually, it would be dumb for it not to, really
03:17:54 <zzo38> elliott: Yes Sgeo asked
03:18:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Apparently not, but cut it out.
03:18:45 <zzo38> I do not know the answer of the question but I know how the IRC protocol is supposed to work
03:18:46 <elliott> I can easily ignore Sg*
03:19:12 <zzo38> elliott: Or ignore *!~Sgeo@* or *!*@*.dyn.optonline.net or whatever?
03:19:26 <elliott> Or ignore *!*@*!
03:19:31 <elliott> That second ! is an exclamation mark.
03:20:00 <elliott> pikhq: elliott@dinky:~$ inst http://www.cpan.org/src/5.0/perl-5.12.2.tar.gz
03:20:00 <elliott> * Downloading perl 5.12.2...
03:20:02 <zzo38> If you ignore everything, what use is that for?
03:20:18 <elliott> zzo38: Good question :P
03:21:10 <elliott> if not configure and 'configure.ac' in files:
03:21:10 <elliott> NameError: global name 'configure' is not defined
03:21:16 <elliott> pikhq: Are you *sure* it's called "configure"?
03:21:21 <elliott> Not Configure or whatever?
03:21:23 <elliott> Or config?
03:21:57 <pikhq> elliott: Not entirely sure.
03:22:11 <elliott> pikhq: "Configure"
03:22:17 <pikhq> Balls.
03:22:17 <elliott> pikhq: There's also
03:22:21 <elliott> # GNU configure-like front end to metaconfig's Configure.
03:22:27 <elliott> So I'll make sure that is the first option.
03:23:00 <elliott> Hmm, seems Configure will handle --prefix, so never mind.
03:23:54 <elliott> pikhq: Let's try that again!
03:24:22 <elliott> raise child_exception
03:24:22 <elliott> OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory
03:24:22 <elliott> say wut
03:24:29 <elliott> stderr=open('/dev/null', 'w'))
03:24:31 <elliott> sayyyyyy whut
03:24:40 <elliott> pikhq: 'pparently /dev/null in't a file
03:25:40 <elliott> ...okay what
03:25:44 <elliott> oh
03:25:44 <elliott> OH
03:25:50 <elliott> pikhq:
03:25:58 <elliott> configure = find_configure(files)
03:25:58 <elliott> ...
03:25:58 <elliott> run_silent('./configure', '--prefix=/opt/' + package_id, *configure_args)
03:26:02 <elliott> pikhq: Spot my retard.
03:26:26 <coppro> ./confiure
03:26:41 <elliott> coppro: punctuation is for fags
03:26:45 <elliott> i stand by this statement
03:27:00 <coppro> lol
03:27:03 <coppro> you used a colon
03:27:04 <coppro> lol
03:28:00 <elliott> indeed
03:28:01 <zzo38> elliott: Punctuation is for other people, too!
03:28:02 <elliott> : is a letter
03:28:04 <elliott> pronounced kuh
03:28:07 <elliott> coppro kuh punctuation
03:28:15 <elliott> zzo38 kuh punctuation is bad
03:28:27 <elliott> pikhq kuh lol perl requires dash capital D prefix equals for prefix, not dash dash prefix
03:28:41 <zzo38> I think punctuation is not bad if you use it good
03:29:03 <coppro> lies
03:29:15 <pikhq> Punctuation is great.
03:29:20 <pikhq> We should all use more of it.
03:29:43 <elliott> pikhq: Proto-proposal: If ./configure fails, try with -Dprefix= before giving up -)
03:29:46 <elliott> *:-)
03:29:47 <coppro> no
03:29:51 <zzo38> Is,it,good;(if you Use like that)???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
03:29:53 <coppro> i am banning punctuation with this challen
03:29:57 <coppro> star channel
03:29:57 <pikhq> .S>e<e_h'o^w_t%h#a@t_i-s?!?.,;:"`
03:30:05 <coppro> in the future we are coding only in cobol or lolcode
03:30:21 <zzo38> Punctuation is good if you use it good
03:30:36 <coppro> so is grammar
03:30:59 <Sgeo> COBOL has punctuation
03:31:12 <elliott> Gregor: Google ad: "Want an aPad? 50% off"
03:31:17 <elliott> http://www.tradetang.com/?source=Google*Computer_C7_You_DAB_DAB_20101102&gclid=CPX0td3UjaUCFVhc4wodxRlBNg
03:31:21 <elliott> APAD
03:31:31 <Gregor> IIRC, aPad is supposed to be one of the best ones.
03:31:38 <Gregor> The best ... fake ones :P
03:31:40 <elliott> "best" :P
03:32:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:35:11 <Gregor> Apparently they're making a Smurfs movie.
03:35:15 <Gregor> (Y'know, "they")
03:36:20 <elliott> Gregor: This summer... get ready... to MEET THE SMURFS!
03:36:24 <elliott> [party music]
03:37:03 <elliott> Gregor: Smurfette now has gigantic breasts. You know it's inevitable.
03:37:34 <pikhq> Hooray, the abomination is more so!
03:38:06 <elliott> Gregor: "It has been confirmed that Smurfette will be voiced by Katy Perry in the new movie."
03:38:08 <elliott> pikhq: What abomination?
03:38:36 <elliott> Gregor: Thing that just fleetingly passed through my head: "I kissed a Smurf and I liked it / ..."
03:38:40 <elliott> I hate my mind sometime.
03:38:59 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/The_smurfs_CGI.jpg
03:39:04 <elliott> dear god
03:39:07 <Gregor> elliott: Ha! Ha! That reference to something pop-culture-related was probably humorous!
03:39:21 <pikhq> elliott: Smurfette is an abomination before God.
03:39:23 <elliott> Gregor: It is funny because it is a reference to a terrible, terrible, terribly popular "song" by Katy Perry!
03:39:40 <pikhq> elliott: Canonically. She was created by Gargamel.
03:40:00 <elliott> Gregor: You see, in the ORIGINAL, it's "I kissed a *girl* and I like it", and it is popular because it promotes the image that anyone who expresses any kind of bisexuality is a slut!
03:40:07 <elliott> Gregor: Now she is voicing Smurfette! Do you see my HILARITY here?
03:40:29 <elliott> "Shrek 2 and Shrek the Third writers, David Stem and David Weiss wrote the screenplay" Oh boy, I can't wait
03:40:45 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:40:51 <pikhq> The derivativeness will be astounding.
03:41:32 <elliott> "The teaser trailer was released on June 16, 2010 and then was attached to Toy Story 3."
03:41:37 <elliott> Well, that'd ruin anyone's enjoyment.
03:43:11 <pikhq> "Now, before you watch this decent film, watch a preview for what happened when we missed the toilet while taking a dump!"
03:43:45 <elliott> pikhq: perl's configure script is... slow...
03:43:55 <pikhq> Yes, yes it is.
03:44:12 <elliott> pikhq: I think it actually froze there :P
03:44:38 <elliott> pikhq:
03:44:39 <elliott> On some of the questions which ask for file or directory names you are allowed
03:44:40 <elliott> to use the ~name construct to specify the login directory belonging to "name",
03:44:40 <elliott> even if you don't have a shell which knows about that. Questions where this is
03:44:40 <elliott> allowed will be marked "(~name ok)".
03:44:40 <elliott> [Type carriage return to continue]
03:44:45 <elliott> Fuck Perl in the anus.
03:45:43 <pikhq> Fuck Perl.
03:45:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:46:15 <Gregor> Perl's cunfigure is really, really bad.
03:46:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm trying ./configure.gnu instead :P
03:46:19 <elliott> Gregor: *cuntfigure
03:46:21 <elliott> It figures out cunts.
03:46:38 <elliott> But it also has configure.gnu, which is a ~wrapper~, so let's hope that ACTUALLY ACTS LIKE AUTOCONF RATHER THAN PROMPTING US FOR SHIT
03:48:24 <Gregor> configure.gnu doesn't prompt, no.
03:48:36 <zzo38> It is possible to make idea of a level in my game if you have any idea
03:53:16 <elliott> pikhq: Perl installing \o/
03:53:16 <myndzi> |
03:53:17 <myndzi> /|
03:53:18 <elliott> zzo38: No idea, sorry.
03:54:29 <zzo38> myndzi: What is that?
03:54:39 <elliott> zzo38: The rest of my \o/ man.
03:54:39 <myndzi> |
03:54:40 <myndzi> /|
03:55:06 <zzo38> In what program does it align?
03:55:30 <zzo38> It does not align in this program, nor in the log files for this channel.
03:56:12 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/VRKU
03:56:16 -!- augur has joined.
03:56:29 <elliott> zzo38: It doesn't align because of the characters.
03:56:40 <pikhq> elliott: Vejn
03:56:40 <elliott> In a client that shows those as spaces, and that aligns nicks to the left, it aligns.
03:56:47 <elliott> pikhq: Vejn? :P
03:56:51 <pikhq> elliott: Win.
03:56:54 <elliott> pikhq: Esperanto for "win"?
03:56:56 <elliott> Kay.
03:57:02 <elliott> augur!
03:57:05 <elliott> augur: i wrote a program
03:57:10 <augur> ok
03:57:24 <elliott> augur: it configures, builds and installs any source tarball you link it!
03:57:26 <elliott> LIKE MAGIC
03:57:34 <augur> ok
03:57:42 <elliott> augur sounds super-excited about the prospect
03:57:57 <augur> im not.
03:58:10 <zzo38> This client hides the CTRL+O characters when /SET FORMAT + is on, but I can see them in the log file
03:58:18 <elliott> augur: but it's SUPER EXCITING
03:58:23 <augur> no
03:58:24 <augur> its noit
03:58:32 <elliott> nooga: yes it is. you're just boring
03:58:35 <zzo38> elliott: I think it won't work with any source files, some require manual setting too
03:58:51 <elliott> zzo38: Well, so far it only works with things based on autoconf.
03:58:59 <elliott> zzo38: But I'm going to extend it to plain Makefile solutions too, and SCons and CMake.
04:00:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:00:50 <zzo38> I think even with plain Makefile solutions, some will require manual setting too
04:02:05 <elliott> Gregor: NO IT INSTALLS TO /OPT/FOO, but it perfectly well could use checkinstall and that'll likely be an option you can set somewhere.
04:03:12 <elliott> pikhq: I need more software to install :P
04:06:19 -!- blaqkode has joined.
04:07:07 <Gregor> blaqkode is in Chicago 2™ (formerly Canada)
04:07:13 <Gregor> Or at least, so I assume by the hostname.
04:10:54 <elliott> He's black. They wouldn't let him in the US.
04:11:00 <elliott> He's also code.
04:11:13 <blaqkode> very funny
04:11:24 <blaqkode> Im in California. :3
04:11:58 <myndzi> i could make it send straight spaces, but then it gets broken in mirc scripts with themes (quite a few)
04:12:06 <myndzi> i could send non-breaking spaces, but i don't like them
04:12:21 <myndzi> i could make it line up for right-aligned nicks but i don't use such a client ;)
04:12:26 <myndzi> nor do most people in most channels i'm in
04:12:35 <myndzi> same goes for nick prefixes
04:12:39 <myndzi> i can't make everybody happy :(
04:12:52 <elliott> mycroftiv: make it DETECT THE CLIENT!11
04:12:58 <elliott> erm
04:13:00 <elliott> myndzi
04:13:10 <myndzi> yeah, just as soon as you show me how to send selective channel messages on a per-client basis ;)
04:13:13 <zzo38> myndzi: No way should work for everyone, I think. My client will hide the CTRL+O characters
04:13:26 <myndzi> they are supposed to be hidden
04:13:33 <elliott> myndzi: zzo38's client actually shows the full hostname prefix, so, uh, yeah.
04:13:34 <myndzi> but they enable copy/paste in mirc to copy just the spaces
04:13:36 <elliott> No hope :P
04:13:41 <myndzi> lol.
04:13:46 <zzo38> myndzi: You can send message to each user of course, but that won't do!
04:13:55 <myndzi> yeah i'll mass-
04:14:02 <myndzi> shift != enter
04:14:07 <myndzi> mass-notice the entire channel
04:14:12 <myndzi> every time someone sends a little dude
04:14:16 <myndzi> that'll end well ;p
04:14:24 <zzo38> Of course it won't do!
04:14:25 <myndzi> not to mention clients handling notices differently :D
04:14:31 <zzo38> That is why you should not do like that!
04:14:48 <Gregor> blaqkode: Ohhh, should've known it was actually Chicago 2™ (formerly California)
04:16:36 -!- blaqkode has left (?).
04:16:47 <Gregor> I scared 'im off :P
04:16:54 <elliott> myndzi: omg yes do that
04:16:57 <elliott> CTCP VERSION then notice :D
04:17:02 <zzo38> myndzi: My client handles notices the same way as everything else. It only handles a few things in a special way, actually (although it is possible to set filters and macros to use other things too)
04:17:28 <zzo38> And what things it handles in a special way depending on the /SET options!
04:19:00 <myndzi> i'll keep that in mind when i'm writing my special script after i receive an o:line with flood privileges (which probably don't exist on this ircd anyway?)
04:19:32 <elliott> myndzi: freenode is too srs for that
04:19:51 <elliott> pikhq: LINK ME TO SOFTWARE MUST DEVOUR
04:20:06 <zzo38> I wrote a IRCd program too (based on another one, with many changes)
04:20:31 <zzo38> And it is as far as I know, the only one capable of following the IRC protocol correctly
04:20:51 <zzo38> (Although it will follow it incorrectly too, if the client insists)
04:21:37 <zzo38> And also the only one with a working SUMMON command.
04:21:44 -!- augur has joined.
04:22:03 <Sgeo> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/open-cobol/open-cobol/1.0/open-cobol-1.0.tar.gz?r=http%3A%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Fopen-cobol%2Ffiles%2F&ts=1289100086&use_mirror=iweb
04:22:16 <Sgeo> There, have some software
04:22:44 <Sgeo> Um
04:22:47 <Sgeo> That might not work
04:22:59 * Sgeo gives the middle finger to SourceForge
04:23:53 -!- Sasha has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:24:18 <myndzi> protip: if it follows the rfc exactly, it doesn't necessarily duplicate the original irc correctly
04:24:23 -!- Sasha has joined.
04:24:35 <myndzi> there were actually some oversights in the rfc
04:24:55 <myndzi> though the only one i can remember at the moment is that ~ was supposed to be a valid nick character
04:25:40 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes, that might be the case; and I know some things about some oversights too. Yet it works, try it if you want to?
04:25:42 <Gregor> I want an IRC server that allows UTF-8 nicks. With colors.
04:25:57 <Gregor> I wonder if common clients would just shit themselves with nicks with mIRC colors :P
04:26:09 <myndzi> mirc would ;)
04:26:12 <zzo38> Gregor: Then write one or modify an existing one.
04:26:17 <myndzi> i input colored nicks into irc before
04:26:26 <myndzi> and it doesn't display them in the actual channel window nicklists
04:27:14 <Sgeo> zzo38, the fun is with people with unmodified clients trying to connect
04:27:21 <ais523> hmm, SCO's latest trick: subverting the laws of arithmetic, or counting to be precise
04:27:27 <elliott> ais523: beautiful
04:27:33 <ais523> their latest court motion has two paragraph 3s, and no paragraph 7
04:27:49 <myndzi> sounds like editing errors to me
04:28:02 <ais523> elliott: incidentally, I actually changed the wiki global settings so that crazy things like your snowman userpage wouldn't show up on edit preview
04:28:07 <elliott> ais523: I know, I saw :)
04:28:14 <ais523> because for people with preview-by-default, it makes the code impossible to see
04:28:17 <elliott> ais523: But I dislike it, because it meant I had to save it 34573457345 times rather than testing it properly.
04:28:38 <ais523> I would have done that for the diff view too, except I couldn't figure out how to do it without breaking your userpage altogether, which is what any /sane/ wikiadmin would have done
04:28:48 <zzo38> My IRC client won't use mIRC colors because it uses its own colors: cyan for sender, bright white for commands, white for short parameters, bright blue for long parameters, reverse green for prompts, bright cyan for client status messages, reverse magenta for control characters, bright red for CTRL+A messages, bright green for timestamps...
04:29:02 <elliott> ais523: It's the best userpage ever, you can't just break something like that.
04:29:20 <ais523> exactly
04:29:31 <ais523> your recent actions seem to have been designed to make life difficult for admins
04:29:50 <ais523> (incidentally, I was wondering how long it would be before someone made an actual esolang at a spambot title)
04:30:00 <zzo38> ais523: If the paragraph numbers are wrong, does that mean that legal document is invalid until is corrected, or is ambiguous or something like that? (Like something says "according to paragraph 3" and you don't know which "paragraph 3" you mean)
04:30:17 <ais523> zzo38: who knows, this is SCO we're talking about; they don't seem to follow the normal rules of legal behaviour
04:30:40 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I made that esolang out of some sort of dada-esque philosophy I follow and then decided to make a user page to un-redlink my own userpage link on it
04:30:46 <elliott> ais523: and then decided a blank one is too boring
04:30:46 <ais523> there was a famous quote where SCO persuaded the judge to ignore a deadline, the other people in the case objected, and the judge said "what are they going to do, take me out back and shoot me?"
04:30:48 <elliott> then it got way out of hand
04:30:57 <ais523> fair enough
04:31:36 <elliott> ais523: In my defence, I created [[rename]], and cleaned up/revised [[Esolang:Community Portal]] and [[Template:License problem]].
04:31:50 <elliott> ais523: As well as making an esolang that, although not intended to, has actually confused me as to whether it's TC or not.
04:31:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:31:54 <elliott> (See http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php)
04:32:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: with people with unmodified clients trying to connect to what?
04:32:43 * elliott adds a comment in reply to himself
04:32:55 <Sgeo> A server that allows IRC colors in nicks, I think
04:33:17 <elliott> ais523: any ideas about http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php? (I added a comment just now)
04:33:24 <elliott> you're quite experienced with TC-ambiguity issues :-P
04:34:11 <ais523> well, it's quite easy to write a befunge-93 program that reads arbitrary input onto the stack
04:34:17 <ais523> thus, it's possible to write a BF interpreter in it
04:34:17 <zzo38> Sgeo: I do suppose some client would get mixed up. Both my server and my client do not accept that.
04:34:29 <ais523> in a twist of definitional difficulty, though, I'm not convinced that that actually makes it TC
04:34:47 <Sgeo> Given an untrustworthy server, what sort of mischef could that server get up to with various clients?
04:35:14 <ais523> you can easily prove that it can't simulate all Turing machines, by contrasting the infinite number of Turing machines with the finite number of possible programs
04:35:24 <ais523> thus, I've just proved it both TC and not TC
04:35:31 <ais523> next step: complain at people who write TCness definitions
04:36:21 <Sgeo> Well, a BF int..
04:36:23 <Sgeo> ARGH
04:36:36 <elliott> ais523: we really need to formalise a definition sometime...
04:36:47 <elliott> ais523: start with a mathematical model of turing machines (or some alternative formulation?), go from there
04:37:06 <zzo38> And there is the HQ9+ variant that has a X command to make it turing-complete, even though it isn't turing-complete
04:37:53 <Sgeo> This predicament comes up with any language that has finite space for the program but infinite for storage?
04:38:10 <ais523> Sgeo: and is otherwise TC, yes
04:38:14 <elliott> technically, it's 256 languages
04:38:22 <elliott> and they're all turing complete
04:38:27 <ais523> elliott: no, it picks one of 256 TC languages at random to interpret the program with
04:38:30 <elliott> it's just impossible to tell which one you're coding in
04:38:32 <elliott> ais523: well, right
04:38:33 <ais523> that's not quite the same
04:39:10 <elliott> ais523: btw, don't know if you've seen anything, but oerjan is okay
04:39:22 <elliott> I started worrying when his email address bounced :)
04:40:10 <elliott> ais523: hmm, Graue opposed [[Template:License problem]] in 2006 when it was created, and his complaint about it is the only link to it
04:40:12 <elliott> [[Oerjan, you are a fine, fine, person, and I appreciate your contributions to this wiki, so don't take this personally. But Template:License problem is just silly. If someone posts copyrighted material here, we need to delete it ASAP, not keep it around and put it on display! We can re-add it if the author agrees, of course. I would've thought that was obvious. Maybe you have a good reason for this te
04:40:12 <elliott> mplate, one that hasn't occurred to me -- if so, please say it here. I'll leave the template around for now just in case. --Graue 05:08, 3 Aug 2006 (UTC)]]
04:40:14 <Sgeo> Real turing machines don't have a concept of input, do they?
04:40:19 <elliott> ais523: I may have just cleaned it up, but candidate for deletion? :)
04:40:28 <elliott> (cleaned it up = the english, ever so slightly...)
04:41:01 <ais523> elliott: well, it misrepresents policy
04:41:05 <ais523> is that a deletion reason on Esolang?
04:41:08 <Sgeo> Well, um, using the word "real" losely
04:41:12 <elliott> "Well, I did give a warning once (see the Template discussion above), and then Graue thought I was silly and should have deleted it outright, so this time I did."
04:41:21 <elliott> seems that the only time it was used was with GreaseMonkey's lang
04:41:26 <elliott> and Graue immediately complained about it
04:41:27 <ais523> I don't really like either a) transplanting policies from Wikipedia willy-nillly, or b) making them up myself
04:41:30 <elliott> ais523: well, no, but
04:41:47 <zzo38> Yes.... you have 256 TC languages one selected at random you don't know which one, is it possible it is turing-complete as a whole? Or, it isn't? There are more questions about turing-complete, even!!
04:41:51 <ais523> I know that before now, I've got an esolang description relicensed as PD by explaining to the author
04:41:56 <elliott> ais523: it was used once in 2006, it was immediately complained about by the Supreme Dictator whose slightly-insane policies we all follow for some reason, and then was never mentioned again
04:42:04 <ais523> zzo38: I've already had an argument about the definition of TCness with a bunch of experts in the subject
04:42:07 <elliott> ais523: so it seems like it's beyond pointless
04:42:11 <ais523> elliott: well, he owns the wiki
04:42:12 <ais523> but fair enough
04:42:22 <elliott> ais523: on the other hand, deleting things makes me feel odd
04:42:40 <ais523> OK, deleted
04:42:45 <elliott> ais523: I'd feel better about it if deleted pages were released somehow (a dump, say)... but eh.
04:42:46 <ais523> I can undelete it if it's ever needed
04:42:51 <Sgeo> elliott, you're turning into um, calamari?
04:42:56 <Sgeo> (I think)
04:42:59 <ais523> elliott: that would defeat the point of deletion
04:43:05 <elliott> ais523: There was an argument about whether deleting violates the GFDL, yeah? Not applicable to Esolang, but interesting.
04:43:15 <elliott> ais523: not really; if it's not illegal -- and if it is it should be completely purged -- there's no reason not to release it
04:43:42 <ais523> elliott: it's only partial deletion that violates the GFDL
04:43:47 <elliott> ais523: No reason to make it *convenient*, but no reason to restrict it to a clique (administrators) that's *meant* to be very open ("Being an administrator is no big deal, that's why we have a drawn-out decision process for it!")
04:43:48 <ais523> deleting the whole thing is obviously OK
04:43:56 <ais523> elliott: haha
04:44:20 <ais523> people have moved away from the whole "being an administrator is no big deal" concept on Wikipedia, after they discovered it didn't match actual practice
04:44:33 <elliott> Delicious, delicious bureauocracy!
04:44:49 <elliott> ais523: it really scares me how seriously a lot of wikipedians treat the place...
04:45:01 <elliott> also, is it just me, or has the quality of Wikipedia articles been decreasing?
04:45:18 <ais523> the average quality has been decreasing, I think, because there are too many for anyone to sensibly cope with any more
04:45:27 <elliott> I hardly ever look at an article that doesn't have bad spelling/formatting or errors nowadays... there's a huge amount of uninformed people adding, say, stuff in the first person to random places, trying to be helpful
04:45:28 <ais523> I was reviewing the contribs of someone who'd vandalised a page I was looking at, found vandalism to a BLP
04:45:49 <ais523> so I reverted, then the bit I'd changed was vandalised much more
04:45:54 <elliott> heh
04:45:54 <Sgeo> BLP?
04:46:03 <ais523> and eventually I just blanked the section, as it was unsourced and I couldn't even figure out what the correct version was
04:46:07 <ais523> Sgeo: biography of a living person
04:46:14 <elliott> I basically use Wikipedia as a glorified tech dictionary + relevant URL source nowadays.
04:46:19 <ais523> they're guarded more closely than other articles, due to potential libel risks
04:46:23 <ais523> elliott: relevant URL source is a big one
04:46:42 <elliott> ais523: Yes, but removing external links is quite the popular pastime, isn't it? :)
04:46:46 <elliott> At least I get that impression.
04:47:07 <elliott> ais523: ooh! I know what to test my inst(1) program with: C-INTERCAL!
04:47:29 <elliott> ais523: (a program that, when given a URL to a tarball (or, in the future, a source repository), downloads it, configures it, builds it and installs it)
04:47:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, perhaps it'd be better to test it on a pre-autotools C-INTERCAL; what was the last insane-build-system version?
04:47:48 <pikhq> Y'know, it is a bit of a shame that there is literally *no* barrier to entry to editing Wikipedia.
04:48:05 <elliott> pikhq: It's the strength and the weakness.
04:48:40 <pikhq> I'm not saying go full-crazy requiring credentials or anything, but it seems to me that it would be nice to at least have a wiki encyclopedia that required *some* demonstration of intelligence before joining.
04:48:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: This quit message is not turing-complete).
04:48:53 <elliott> pikhq: s/joining/editing/; I support anonymous editing.
04:49:17 <ais523> pikhq: well, there's Citizendium: real names required, if you can show credentials then the admins automatically side with you on content disputes (as a matter of policy)
04:49:20 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, true, anonymity is definitely a good thing.
04:49:26 <ais523> it's not really as popular as Wikipedia
04:49:47 <pikhq> ais523: Eh.
04:49:56 <elliott> ais523: Citizendium is awful; the article on chiropracty is "moderated" or whatever and primarily written by a chiropractor's organisation, because they're EXPERTS
04:50:02 <elliott> ais523: it is, therefore, a pile of unscientific bullshit
04:50:11 <elliott> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Chiropractic
04:50:12 <ais523> elliott: you know, I'm not surprisd at all
04:50:19 <ais523> *surprised
04:50:32 <elliott> "Article approved by three editors (first, second and third)"
04:50:33 <elliott> first:
04:50:46 <elliott> "I performed my pre-requisite studies through Indiana University and graduated magna cum laude from Logan College of Chiropractic in 1982. I am certified in Acupuncture from National College of Health Sciences."
04:50:52 <elliott> (and practices it)
04:50:59 <elliott> second: "Nancy Sculerati is an associate professor at New York University School of Medicine. She contributed a great deal to this project in 2006-7, for which we are very grateful, but she has since left the project." (well how descriptive)
04:51:10 <pikhq> I consider Citizendium to be too reliant on credientials.
04:51:18 <ais523> pikhq: well, that's its entire purpose
04:51:19 <elliott> third: "I am Head of the School of Biomedical Sciences in the College of Medical and Veterinary Sciences at the University of Edinburgh."
04:51:30 <elliott> ais523: this is actually far more balanced than the last time, which was solely done by chiropractors
04:51:34 <elliott> but still...
04:51:36 <pikhq> My idea of "demonstration of intelligence" is, at most, demonstration of ability to write a well-thought-out paragraph.
04:51:54 <elliott> the article is still far too apologetic
04:52:16 <elliott> ais523: also, it has almost no articles entirely :)
04:53:48 <elliott> ais523: so what's the last non-autotools C-INTERCAL?
04:53:56 <pikhq> Still, it's pretty amazing how well Wikipedia works for being written by, essentially, whatever random moron feels like typing in something for it.
04:54:40 <elliott> I think ais523 has ignored *C-INTERCAL* :-)
04:57:51 <elliott> oh jesus, ais523; your versioning system breaks my program
04:58:28 <Sgeo> How does that even make sense/
04:58:47 <Sgeo> I mean, if it prevents ./configure; make; sudo make install;
04:58:57 <Sgeo> Which would be weird for a versioning system to do
04:59:02 <Sgeo> And elliott still can't hear me
04:59:18 * Sgeo hits elliott with a division
04:59:23 <elliott> ais523: ping?
04:59:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:59:59 <olsner> *finally*, a working interrupt handler for timer interrupts
05:00:11 <ais523> elliott: pong
05:00:21 <ais523> sorry, was looking at another tab
05:00:30 <ais523> last non-autotools is pretty ancient
05:00:41 <ais523> also, if my versioning system doesn't break your program, it's doing something wrong :)
05:00:44 <elliott> ais523: 0.28?
05:00:53 <elliott> ais523: hey, i like how 0.28 was followed by 0.-2.0.29, i hate you :)
05:00:57 <ais523> it was autotools (badly) before I started maintaining it
05:01:06 <ais523> elliott: it's a beta, thus the negative version number component
05:01:09 <elliott> <ais523> it was autotools (badly) before I started maintaining it
05:01:14 <elliott> hmm, right, but you redid the build system
05:01:15 <elliott> to be sane
05:01:19 <elliott> i'll try both insane and sane versions
05:01:24 <elliott> ais523: urghh, this is going to be hell to extract the version from
05:01:42 <elliott> logic needs to be... last "-" separated component, but if there's a ".", then get everything from the preceding "-" to the end
05:01:53 <elliott> -X.Y = X.Y
05:01:54 <elliott> -X = X
05:01:56 <elliott> regexp time
05:01:59 <Sgeo> ais523, how does this break elliott's stuff?
05:01:59 <ais523> elliott: it's lexicographical
05:02:09 <ais523> most relevant part is the one at the end
05:02:17 <ais523> e.g. 29 at the end trumps 28 at the end trumps 27 at the end
05:02:17 <elliott> ais523: I don't care, I'm installing it with that order
05:02:22 <ais523> if there's a tie, look at the number before
05:02:24 <pikhq> o.O
05:02:33 <elliott> pikhq: It's C-INTERCAL. It can do whatever it wants.
05:02:35 <ais523> it's simple and logical, just not the system everyone else uses
05:02:49 <pikhq> It was *quite possible* for the election in 2010 to be have been decided by Al Gore.
05:02:59 <pikhq> Erm, 2000.
05:03:01 <pikhq> WRONG YEAR.
05:03:29 <pikhq> The Supreme Court could have invalidated the Florida election, thus leaving neither candidate with a majority of the electoral college votes.
05:03:38 <pikhq> So, the Senate would have the role of deciding the President.
05:04:02 <elliott> def name_and_version_for(package_id):
05:04:02 <elliott> m = re.search(r'(.+)-([^-]+).(.*)', package_id)
05:04:02 <elliott> if m:
05:04:02 <elliott> return m.group(1), '%s.%s' % (m.group(2), m.group(3))
05:04:02 <elliott> else:
05:04:03 <elliott> split = m.split('-')
05:04:05 <elliott> return split[:-1], split[-1]
05:04:07 <elliott> ais523: I hope you're happy.
05:04:08 <pikhq> The Senate at the time was 50/50 Democrat and Republican, and so the vote would likely go to the President of the Senate.
05:04:12 <pikhq> Who, at the time, was Al Gore.
05:04:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:04:21 <ais523> elliott: your original regex has nothing to do with my versioning scheme
05:04:28 <ais523> pikhq: heh, that's hilarious
05:04:33 <ais523> I'm so sad that didn't happen now
05:04:39 <elliott> ais523: no, but it does make it work with your versioning scheme
05:04:51 <pikhq> ais523: It would've been awesome for Al Gore to vote himself as President.
05:04:53 <pikhq> Truly awesome.
05:05:02 <elliott> pikhq: that would be beyond amazing
05:05:07 <ais523> even more awesome if he voted Bush in
05:05:08 <elliott> and the republicans would never forget it ever
05:05:10 <elliott> ais523: :D
05:05:24 <elliott> "Frankly, my friends... Even I wouldn't vote for me."
05:05:26 <pikhq> elliott: Their fault for suing Gore, then.
05:05:42 <elliott> ais523: have you got a C-INTERCAL 0.-2.0.29 download link that works?
05:05:47 <elliott> it seems that lepton.kuonet-ng.org is down
05:05:55 <ais523> try c.intercal.org.uk
05:06:16 <elliott> ais523: thank you
05:06:30 <elliott> $ inst http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
05:06:30 <elliott> * Downloading ick-0. 2.0.2....
05:06:31 <elliott> Fail!
05:06:36 <ais523> ugh
05:06:40 <ais523> what about the gopher via IPv6 link?
05:06:54 <elliott> ais523: I have neither an IPv6-enabled connection, nor a program that supports gopher.
05:07:01 <elliott> Okay, so curl *might* support gopher. But I don't want it to.
05:07:02 <ais523> you can also get it from ESR's repo of every version ever, I imagine
05:07:08 <ais523> also, Firefox 3 supports gopher
05:07:10 <elliott> ais523: Repositories aren't HTTP URLs :)
05:07:17 <elliott> Right now all this does is HTTP.
05:07:19 <ais523> (I think support was removed from 4)
05:07:20 <elliott> I could easily enable FTP too.
05:07:21 <ais523> ah
05:07:31 <elliott> ais523: But it will, eventually, somehow, magically, detect what VCS a URL uses.
05:07:41 <elliott> (Look for a 403 on _darcs or something, for darcs?)
05:07:48 <elliott> (Or, really, anything but a 404.)
05:07:52 <ais523> elliott: also, the overload.intercal.org.uk link works fine for me
05:07:53 <elliott> ((Or a 500.))
05:07:55 <elliott> (((etc.)))
05:08:04 <ais523> presumably, it's just blocking your useragent, or something like that
05:08:17 <elliott> ais523: oh, no, my "Fail!" was at my program
05:08:25 <elliott> ais523: thinking it was ick-0 version 2.0.2
05:08:29 <ais523> aha, robots.txt is set to disallow all
05:08:33 <elliott> no
05:08:35 <elliott> it works fine :)
05:08:38 <ais523> ah
05:08:43 <elliott> curl doesn't read robots.txt, I don't think, by default
05:08:46 <elliott> since it's not a crawler
05:09:10 <elliott> * Downloading ick 0..2.0.29...
05:09:11 <elliott> Closer :)
05:10:47 <elliott> ais523: your build system fails if you don't have yacc(1)
05:10:57 <elliott> configure doesn't tell you, and then make fails after sh goes "yo no yacc command"
05:11:00 <elliott> rather than failing gracefully
05:11:11 <elliott> ais523: consider that a bug report
05:11:25 <pikhq> God, Bush v. Gore. Next time I hear the phrase "judicial activism" from a conservative I'm bringing that up.
05:11:53 <elliott> judicial passivism
05:12:52 <pikhq> It doesn't get more activist than deciding an election.
05:13:29 <elliott> ais523: flex, too, although at least it says
05:13:34 <elliott> WARNING: `flex' is missing on your system.
05:14:14 <ais523> elliott: I fixed that bug at least twice
05:14:20 <elliott> ais523: try fixing it a third time
05:14:24 <ais523> but the latest fix isn't in that beta, but only in the alpha version
05:14:26 <elliott> ah
05:14:32 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ inst http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
05:14:32 <elliott> * Downloading ick 0.-2.0.29...
05:14:32 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
05:14:32 <elliott> * Configuring ick 0.-2.0.29...
05:14:32 <elliott> * Building ick 0.-2.0.29...
05:14:33 <elliott> * Installing ick 0.-2.0.29...
05:14:35 <elliott> * Installed ick 0.-2.0.29.
05:14:37 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls /opt/ick-0.-2.0.29
05:14:39 <elliott> bin include lib share
05:14:41 <elliott> ais523: I hereby declare ick INST COMPLIANT(TM).
05:15:07 <ais523> heh, you're trying to make an auto-install-from-tarball?
05:15:09 <ais523> I like that idea
05:15:11 <elliott> ais523: yep
05:15:19 <elliott> ais523: also s/tarball/tarball or VCS repository/
05:15:35 <elliott> ais523: It works rather well:
05:15:36 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls /opt
05:15:37 <elliott> bash-4.1 egobf-0.7.1 emacs-23.2 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 Python-2.7
05:16:04 <elliott> Perl I had to hack the script for; ./configure is evil and prompts the user and doesn't use --prefix=foo (it uses -Dprefix=foo), but making it detect ./configure.gnu makes everything work, because that emulates autoconf's configure script.
05:16:33 <elliott> And Python's "make install" doesn't work when I pipe the output to a buffer in my program rather than >/dev/null, so currently things are slightly broken to make that work.
05:16:38 <elliott> But everything else worked just fine.
05:17:03 <elliott> ais523: ugh, "ick-0-28.tgz"
05:17:06 <ais523> try openoffice, it's famous for being hard to compile
05:17:06 <elliott> ais523: I hate you
05:17:11 * Gregor compiles Fythe on his ChiPad :P
05:17:12 <ais523> elliott: 8.3!
05:17:25 <elliott> ais523: Yes, but I need to figure out how to decode that into a version number without SPECIAL-CASING EVERYTHING
05:17:26 <elliott> :P
05:17:42 <elliott> ais523: "# I hate ais523" is now above name_and_version_for.
05:17:46 <ais523> elliott: well, at least your program doesn't break man(1) for the entire system just because the filename has spaces in
05:17:47 <pikhq> ais523: OpenOffice is awfulness itself.
05:17:56 <elliott> ais523: is openoffice even vaguely autoconf-compatible?
05:17:57 <pikhq> ais523: Each and every widget has its own set of C++ files.
05:17:59 <pikhq> *Set*.
05:18:03 <elliott> it's probably scons/cmake/whatever, which I don't support yet
05:18:05 <pikhq> elliott: No.
05:18:09 <elliott> kay :P
05:18:12 <ais523> (note: genuine mandb(1) bug that was triggered by CLC-INTERCAL; Debian decided to change CLC-INTERCAL rather than mandb, for some reason)
05:18:28 <pikhq> elliott: It's custom.
05:18:44 <elliott> ais523: Wait, what?
05:18:46 <pikhq> elliott: It is a packager's nightmare.
05:18:52 <elliott> $ inst http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/ick-0-28.tgz
05:18:52 <elliott> * Downloading ick 0.28...
05:18:54 <elliott> How did I get that right?
05:19:03 <ais523> elliott: the CLC-INTERCAL binary used to be called oo, ick
05:19:05 <elliott> ais523: My workaround for negative versions has somehow made it work :P
05:19:06 <ais523> with an embedded space
05:19:10 <ais523> and it blew up mandb
05:19:21 <elliott> ais523: have you got an x-y-z version number anywhere?
05:19:22 <elliott> also, heh
05:19:26 <elliott> ick-1-2-3.tgz
05:19:29 <elliott> ok, so that's not 8.3
05:19:30 <elliott> but whatever
05:19:31 <ais523> and I don't think so, it wouldn't fit in 8.3
05:19:38 <ais523> so there'd be no point
05:19:51 * elliott makes one
05:20:29 <elliott> ./config.sh: 910: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting "fi")
05:20:34 <elliott> ais523: ick 0.28 -- shame on you
05:20:37 <elliott> ais523: is it bash-only?
05:20:46 <ais523> elliott: yes, by mistake
05:20:55 <ais523> that one was reported to me by Debian themselves, and I sent a patch
05:21:02 <ais523> remove the parens on that line, it'll work fine
05:21:11 <elliott> ais523: no, it must be unmodified to be INST COMPLIANT(TM)
05:21:13 <ais523> I think you'll agree with me that it's the stupidest nonportability ever
05:21:18 <elliott> ais523: even if i make inst use bash, it fails:
05:21:21 <elliott> gcc -g -O2 -DICKINCLUDEDIR=\"/opt/ick-0-28/include/ick-0.28\" -DICKDATADIR=\"/opt/ick-0-28/share/ick-0.28\" -DICKBINDIR=\"/opt/ick-0-28/bin\" -DICKLIBDIR=\"/opt/ick-0-28/lib\" -DYYDEBUG -DICK_HAVE_STDINT_H=1 -O2 -W -Wall -I./src -I./temp -c -o temp/ick_lose.o src/ick_lose.c
05:21:21 <elliott> rm -f temp/oil.c
05:21:21 <elliott> mv y.tab.c temp/oil.c
05:21:21 <elliott> mv: cannot stat `y.tab.c': No such file or directory
05:21:29 <elliott> (also, "DICKINCLUDEDIR", how unfortunate...)
05:21:47 <ais523> elliott: blame it on gcc
05:21:53 <ais523> well, cc(1)
05:22:02 <ais523> for not forseeing that its option syntax would clash badly with C-INTERCAL's name
05:22:10 <elliott> ais523: what about the error? :)
05:22:21 <Sgeo> What would happen if I said that bash is worse than COBOL?
05:22:29 <ais523> looks like a missing lex/flex
05:22:46 <elliott> ais523: no, i have flex
05:22:50 <elliott> i installed it for c-intercal :)
05:23:14 <ais523> hmm
05:23:25 <ais523> well, y.tab.c is the infamously hardcoded name of lex's output file
05:23:41 <ais523> for all I know it might be a bug in the build system, which I've since already fixed
05:23:47 <elliott> ais523: have you still got the dd/sh package for 1.-94?
05:23:49 <elliott> that sounds like fun to read
05:24:00 <elliott> oh, wait
05:24:03 <elliott> that's CLC-INTERCAL
05:24:09 <elliott> just the footnotes are technically in the C-INTERCAL section
05:24:10 <elliott> confusing
05:24:18 <elliott> Package DD/SH program Tarball
05:24:18 <elliott> Bundle (304646 bytes) (317525 bytes)
05:24:19 <elliott> ais523: impressive
05:24:26 <elliott> the dd/sh is smaller
05:24:39 <ais523> wait what?
05:24:43 <elliott> ais523: when gzipped
05:24:46 <ais523> ah
05:24:49 <elliott> still
05:24:50 <elliott> cool!
05:24:55 <ais523> phew, I thought the world had gone upside-down then
05:24:58 <elliott> ais523: especially as the tarball isn't self-decompressing
05:25:00 <ais523> and ddsh doesn't store metadata, so that makes sense
05:25:01 <elliott> (once gunzipped)
05:25:11 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it also has a bunch of verbose output messages
05:25:13 <elliott> and comments
05:25:14 <elliott> and whitespace
05:25:18 <elliott> and grep
05:25:26 <elliott> admittedly, that's a small overhead
05:26:26 <ais523> elliott: CLC-INTERCAL is a Perl program
05:26:43 <elliott> ais523: Yes, yes it is :P
05:26:45 <ais523> that installs cleanly via the typical perl configure, make, make install
05:26:50 <ais523> so it'd be a good test for inst
05:26:56 <elliott> ais523: heh, i'll give it a go
05:27:32 <elliott> ais523: "* Downloading CLC INTERCAL.1.-94.-2..."
05:27:34 <elliott> sigh!
05:27:50 <elliott> * Downloading CLC-INTERCAL 1.-94.-2...
05:27:51 <elliott> that's better
05:28:10 <ais523> heh, you should see what the Debian version number for that looks like
05:28:14 <elliott> ais523: heh, I almost toned down "# I hate ais523" into "# Damn you, ais523!" then double-taked
05:28:17 <elliott> (yes, yes, i take it back)
05:28:47 <ais523> you should blame CLC for C-INTERCAL's version number, not me
05:29:44 <elliott> ais523: that's why i was toning it down
05:30:44 <ais523> heh, I don't really mind being hated
05:32:11 <elliott> ais523: ugh, it's Makefile.PL
05:32:13 <elliott> not configure
05:32:36 <ais523> that's standard for Perl configuring
05:32:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:32:47 <elliott> yes, but still
05:32:51 <elliott> ais523: hey, this could replace CPAN :-)
05:33:40 <ais523> elliott: someone else had just that thought, and ended up inventing CPANMINUS
05:33:54 <ais523> I haven't tried myself; allegedly, it's less bad than CPAN, but that isn't exactly difficult
05:34:10 <elliott> ais523: cpanminus looks pretty good
05:34:13 <ais523> really, what CPAN needs is an actual package management system, that works as well as, say, aptitude+dpkg
05:34:13 <elliott> ais523: but still, it's too complex!
05:34:22 <elliott> ais523: what it needs is inst(1)!
05:34:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:34:29 <pikhq> I should be made dictator.
05:34:32 <ais523> i.e. not perfect, but good enough
05:34:32 <elliott> ais523: I'm actually trying to figure out how to add automatic dependency installation for inst(1)...
05:34:34 <ais523> pikhq: of what?
05:34:41 <pikhq> ais523: The world.
05:34:50 <elliott> ais523: I'm thinking maybe "look it up in Debian sid, if it's there, use their orig tarball".
05:34:55 <pikhq> That'll solve everything.
05:35:00 <ais523> pikhq: what makes you think that would be beneficial for the world
05:35:13 <pikhq> ais523: My hubris.
05:36:02 <elliott> ais523: hmm, what's the standard prefix argument to Makefile.PL?
05:36:09 <elliott> ais523: not --prefix, presumably; for Perl's "Configure" it was -Dprefix=foo
05:37:15 <ais523> I'm not sure, offhand
05:37:31 <ais523> I've never used it, I've always just installed in the default locatoin
05:37:33 <ais523> *location
05:38:54 <elliott> ais523: ugh, --help doesn't even work
05:39:12 <elliott> '-DPREFIX' is not a known MakeMaker parameter name.
05:39:50 <pikhq> Hubris is a powerful, powerful thing.
05:40:07 <elliott> " 1. perl Makefile.PL INSTALL_BASE=~"
05:40:09 <elliott> you're fucking kidding me
05:41:20 <ais523> yep, seems it is in fact INSTALL_BASE=
05:41:33 <elliott> def run_configure_help(configure):
05:41:33 <elliott> if configure == 'Makefile.PL':
05:41:33 <elliott> print 'Perl program; no configuration available. Sorry!'
05:43:01 <ais523> presumably, the explanation is in perldoc ExtUtils::MakeMaker
05:43:36 <elliott> indeed
05:43:40 <elliott> i found that from that perldoc
05:43:43 <elliott> oh boy, the build fails
05:44:59 <elliott> make[1]: Entering directory `/tmp/inst-work-02cJYR/tree/CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2/CLC-INTERCAL-Base-1.-94.-2'
05:45:00 <elliott> make[1]: *** No rule to make target `blib/lib/Language/INTERCAL/Include/1972.iacc', needed by `blib/lib/Language/INTERCAL/Include/1972.io'. Stop.
05:45:00 <elliott> make[1]: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
05:45:01 <elliott> ais523: w h a t
05:45:28 <elliott> ais523: ugh, I think perl builds fail on -j3
05:46:18 <elliott> indeed
05:47:46 <elliott> ais523: I hereby brand all Perl programs BAD PROGRAMS; they build with inst, but only because I coerced it to.
05:48:04 <elliott> ais523: Well, all of them using Makefile.PL.
05:48:36 <elliott> ais523: So first I fixed the parser so that errors are truly run-
05:48:36 <elliott> time in C-INTERCAL (E017 has been relegated to a previously minor
05:48:36 <elliott> function, that of erroring on meshes over 65535)
05:48:40 <elliott> ais523: can you explain that parenthical remark?
05:48:43 <elliott> I definitely don't understand it.
05:49:25 <elliott> ok, I officially give up on CLC-INTERCAL: http://sprunge.us/JBdj
05:49:49 <elliott> is there an environment variable for that, I wonder
05:50:28 <Sasha> so
05:51:14 <Sasha> anyone here in high school?
05:51:14 <Sasha> I have sex-ed next week with a 60-year old, "pro-life" anti-GLBT abstinence-only lady teaching.
05:51:14 <Sasha> What are effective trolling techniques
05:51:39 <elliott> Effective trolling techniques: Don't waste your time
05:51:44 <pikhq> Where are you?
05:51:45 <elliott> ais523: ok, it actually installs.
05:52:32 <pikhq> Sasha: Are you gay or bi? If so, please oh please be obviously so.
05:52:32 <Sasha> pikhq: Arizona.
05:52:38 <Sasha> I'm undecided
05:52:47 <Sasha> asexual until proven otherwise
05:53:06 <pikhq> How can you be undecided that's not how things work?
05:53:19 <Sgeo> Maybe she means "uncertain"?
05:53:38 <Sasha> Undecided is a bad word for it
05:53:54 <Sasha> my brain hasn't quite made up its mind, if you will pardon the pun.
05:54:12 <pikhq> That's... Really not how things work. At all.
05:54:38 <Sgeo> I don't feel like pardoning you. Guess you'll just die.
05:54:56 <Sasha> Okay, then. How do they work? I did not come with an instruction manual.
05:55:43 <pikhq> You possess sexual attractions. You don't "make up your mind" about them, they just kinda are.
05:56:00 <Sgeo> I, for instance, might say that I'm uncertain whether or not I have any attraction to men. There is a definite answer, I'm just not sure what it is
05:56:11 <elliott> this is irrelevant and tedious
05:56:23 <pikhq> I'd think this would be exceptionally obvious to anyone who had made their way through puberty...
05:56:41 <Sasha> pikhq: There were very vague attractions during puberty
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05:57:12 <pikhq> Sasha: ... Very vague?
05:57:22 <Sasha> yes
05:57:29 <Sasha> unclear, sort of foggy
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05:57:30 <pikhq> You are probably asexual.
05:57:34 <Sasha> huh
05:57:44 <Sasha> something else to be happy/sad about
05:57:48 <Sgeo> Is there a spectrum between asexual and sexual?
05:57:53 <elliott> "I am so sad that I don't have [desire]!"
05:57:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Probably.
05:57:56 <elliott> Question: Does this make any sense?
05:57:56 <Sgeo> As in, very little interest, for example?
05:57:58 <elliott> Answer: This makes no sense.
05:58:26 <Gregor> Sgeo: Yes.
05:58:46 <Gregor> I love the mix between Sasha's overcomplication and pikhq's oversimplification. Such a good combo.
05:58:51 <elliott> pikhq: Well, sexual urges are less for females than males during puberty, right?
05:58:57 <elliott> Gregor: Black + white = grey!
05:59:06 <elliott> pikhq: So it depends if Sasha is female. Which is ... unlikely :P
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05:59:18 <Sasha> I'm male
05:59:25 <Gregor> Esp. what with Sasha being a male name and all ...
05:59:36 <Sgeo> Wait what?
05:59:47 <Sasha> masculine name.
05:59:52 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that right now, I'm glad elliott has me on ignore
06:00:25 <pikhq> elliott: "Less" != "vague and unclear" anyways.
06:00:45 <Sgeo> Is there some sort of prank being played here, though? To me, Sasha is a VERY feminine name
06:00:55 <Gregor> Sgeo: Well, then you're wrong?
06:00:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, it's fairly masculine.
06:01:04 <Sasha> Sgeo: Nickname for my given name
06:01:12 <Sasha> and my given name is masculine
06:01:18 <Gregor> Sachismo.
06:01:19 <Sasha> it's Eastern European
06:01:26 <elliott> http://www.google.com/images?q=sasha&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=gDLWTK-PMYKQjAfSlp3DCQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CEUQsAQwBA&biw=1366&bih=577
06:01:32 <elliott> Seems rather equally divided between male/female.
06:01:33 <pikhq> Ah, apparently it's mostly a female given name in the US. Go figure.
06:01:51 <Gregor> pikhq: I have too much interaction with Europeans :P
06:02:05 <pikhq> Funny, when I hear "Sasha" I'm going to figure a Slavic male.
06:02:06 <Gregor> pikhq: I literally cannot stop myself from counting thumb-first now. I'm perfectly conscious of it and yet I CAN'T STOP :(
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06:03:26 <Sasha> good night
06:03:26 <pikhq> Gregor: I consistently use s where an American would use z in "-ise".
06:03:39 <Gregor> pikhq: HA. You fail more at being American than I do :P
06:03:41 <Sasha> we can discuss more on this subject next waking period
06:03:41 <pikhq> And find grey and gray to be interchangable.
06:03:53 <Sasha> I use "-ise"
06:03:57 <Sasha> and "gray"
06:04:08 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't think gr{a,e}y is actually a UK-US thing, I think it's inconsistent in both locales.
06:04:21 <Gregor> Sasha: Well of course you use -ise :P
06:04:28 <pikhq> Gregor: It is a UK-US thing, but not very strict either way.
06:04:36 <Sasha> Gregor: It's how I pronounce it.
06:04:52 <Sasha> and, for the record, I am in the US. Very much so.
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06:05:05 <Gregor> pikhq: You realize that sentence makes no sense, right :P
06:05:13 <elliott> Gregor: Thumb-first is awesome.
06:05:21 <Gregor> Sasha: I predict you're in ... Arizona.
06:05:28 <elliott> Arserona.
06:05:39 <Sasha> exactly
06:05:41 <pikhq> Gregor: Gray is primarily a US thing.
06:05:43 <Sasha> hurrah hostmasks
06:06:02 <Gregor> Sasha: I didn't say my prediction wasn't informed :P
06:06:18 <Sasha> I need to obscure my IP
06:06:22 <Sasha> or use a proxy
06:06:28 <pikhq> Sasha: You did say you were in Arizona earlier.
06:06:57 <Sasha> yeah
06:07:05 <Sasha> but I still need to obscure my IP
06:07:09 <Sasha> and sleep a bit
06:07:51 <elliott> Or just get a cloak.
06:07:56 <elliott> Or just stop caring.
06:08:10 <Sasha> I wear a tinfoil hat for a reason
06:09:21 <elliott> Sasha: No you don't, you just wear a tinfoil hat.
06:09:32 <Sasha> I don't, actually
06:09:35 <Sasha> this one is wool
06:09:39 <Sasha> and it's soft and warm
06:09:42 <Sasha> and sheepy
06:10:05 <Sasha> made it myself
06:10:28 <Gregor> It's actually just a sheep Sasha wears on his head.
06:10:37 <Sasha> hey man
06:10:44 <Sasha> don't knock it til you've tried it
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06:38:20 <elliott> Goodnight; bye.
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06:56:24 <elliott> fuck sleeping
06:56:26 <elliott> sleeping is for cunts
06:56:32 <elliott> https://github.com/Orc/bin NEW FAVOURITE MOTHERFUCKING COREUTILS
06:56:34 <elliott> pikhq: https://github.com/Orc/bin
06:56:35 <elliott> pikhq: this forever
06:56:49 <elliott> pikhq: a portable BSD-style coreutils
06:56:54 <elliott> with full ls(1) and all
06:57:05 <elliott> pikhq: written by DAVID PARSONS who is now my top favourite person instead of like 2nd or 3rd
06:57:44 <elliott> pikhq: And a partial libc too...
06:58:02 <elliott> pikhq: And an option parsing library.
06:58:06 <elliott> Like Christmas.
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07:00:03 <pikhq> elliott: Only early.
07:01:14 <elliott> pikhq: inst(1) update: Cannot install programs configured with http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/configure/; it uses install(1) in an upsetting way because it doesn't mkdir -p before installing stuff there. This means you have to mkdir -p /opt/package-version beforehand, and then when it does "install foo ../bin" /opt/package-version/bin is the executable, since it hasn't been made into a directory.
07:01:24 <elliott> pikhq: Will report bug to him sometime, but whatever.
07:01:45 <elliott> pikhq: If you mkdir -p /opt/package-version/{bin,lib,include,etc.etc.etc.} beforehand it'll work.
07:02:28 <pikhq> elliott: So, he needs to add -D to the install line.
07:02:37 <elliott> pikhq: isn't that a gnuism or whatever
07:02:44 <pikhq> No.
07:02:48 <pikhq> It doesn't even have a long option.
07:02:52 <elliott> pikhq: if it doesn't work on Sun IRIX 3.95 the Bloopy version he won't use it :)
07:03:07 <elliott> pikhq: all leading components, it says
07:03:09 <elliott> so install foo /blah/bin
07:03:10 <elliott> would make blah
07:03:12 <elliott> but not blah/bin
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07:03:16 <elliott> so you'd get foo as /blah/bin the file
07:03:26 <elliott> pikhq: so he actually needs either install foo /blah/bin/foo, or mkdir -p then install
07:03:36 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, that's positively retarded behavior.
07:03:43 <elliott> welcome to unix
07:03:54 <elliott> savelogs
07:03:54 <elliott> Another log rotation program
07:03:57 <elliott> he is so NIH :)
07:04:31 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/secho/ joy joy joy love
07:04:33 <elliott> https://github.com/Orc/secho
07:04:37 <elliott> http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/secho/ JOY
07:04:47 <elliott> my favourite program ever installing must install
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07:06:49 <elliott> pikhq: this is literally the best program ever.
07:07:59 <pikhq> elliott: Oh?
07:08:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/secho/
07:09:06 <pikhq> Mmm.
07:11:08 <elliott> " A patch for Linux 2.0.x that was posted to the Linux kernel mailing list several years back; it spits up a pretty boot logo when the system is uncompressing the kernel. I was going to use it to hack a noickytexthere boot system (that doesn’t show all the bootup messages, but just has a pretty logo), but I was too busy burning out at the time."
07:11:17 <elliott> DAVID PARSONS: Invented textless boots before Ubuntu.
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07:19:10 <pikhq> DAVID PARSONS: Maybe also Computer Jesus.
07:21:22 <elliott> pikhq: Computer SATAN
07:21:27 * elliott dramatic music
07:21:30 <elliott> pikhq: Also: Literal Jesus.
07:21:40 <elliott> DAVID PARSONS (the name is actually in smallcaps, but) is literal Jesus.
07:22:49 <Gregor> "before Ubuntu" ... you realize that plenty of other distros had graphical boot before Ubuntu even existed ...
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07:23:24 <elliott> Gregor: My statement is still factually accurate. Also: hurrrbdl what is joeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkl;'#
07:23:37 <elliott> But WHAT IS joeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkl;'#? We may never know.
07:23:46 <Gregor> How is babby formed?
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07:28:00 <elliott> for (i=1; i<argc; i++)
07:28:00 <elliott> grep(pattern, file(argv[i])) || exit(1);
07:28:01 <elliott> I feel dirty.
07:32:00 <elliott> pikhq: QUICK! Boyer-Moore, Knuth-Morris-Pratt or Rabin-Karp?
07:32:08 <elliott> Whoa, deja vu.
07:32:18 <pikhq> elliott: Knuth-Knuth-Knuth
07:32:43 <elliott> pikhq: BUT COMPLICATED
07:32:45 <pikhq> Cloning machine needed for the triumvirate of Knuth, Knuth, and Knuth, of course.
07:32:48 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%E2%80%93Morris%E2%80%93Pratt_algorithm#Description_of_and_pseudocode_for_the_search_algorithm
07:32:50 <elliott> DAMN LAZY MAN
07:33:15 <elliott> I could, of course, just do it character-by-character.
07:41:58 <elliott> pikhq: yay I have bfgrep now (fixed binary grep)
07:42:01 <elliott> just need to make it REGEXPBLOAT
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07:44:20 <elliott> pikhq: DID YOU KNOW: There is a decent, NFA-based regexp library?
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07:46:55 <elliott> Unfortunately not quite decent enough:
07:46:56 <elliott> BUGS
07:46:56 <elliott> There is no way to specify or match a NUL character; NULs terminate patterns and strings.
07:47:29 <elliott> pikhq: It seems that the sanest regular expression library is C++. :(
07:49:53 <Sgeo> Night everyone who can here me
07:50:46 <Sgeo> *hear
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07:54:20 <pikhq> elliott: AAARGH
07:54:34 <elliott> pikhq: http://code.google.com/p/re2/
07:54:38 <elliott> pikhq: Russ Cox. NFA-based. C++ :(
07:54:42 <elliott> (Google-approved :P)
07:55:23 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is more NIH is needed.
07:55:49 <pikhq> And now, I sleep.
07:56:52 <elliott> pikhq: Hmph. Sleepist.
07:58:50 <elliott> pikhq: Is it a bad sign when you write a program with a flag specifically designed to make the program's output consistent?
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08:09:07 <zzo38> elliott: Possibly it depends on the program, too?
08:09:33 <zzo38> (And I think I read somewhere that gcc has such a flag)
08:10:03 <elliott> zzo38: In this case, it's bgrep(1), which searches a list of files for a string and prints the offsets the substrings start in.
08:10:18 <zzo38> elliott: O, so it is different.
08:10:21 <elliott> zzo38: When you only give it one file, it just prints out offsets as decimal numbers, one per line. With multiple files, it prints "filename @ offset".
08:10:30 <elliott> zzo38: The -@ flag makes it always print "filename @ offset", even with only one filename.
08:10:36 <elliott> I am think I should perhaps just make it always print the filename.
08:11:05 <elliott> *thinking
08:11:14 <zzo38> Yes, I also think you should perhaps just make it always print the filename. If it is not wanted, you can use stdin redirect instead.
08:12:05 <elliott> zzo38: I currently don't support stdin, but I probably should.
08:12:07 <zzo38> I think no such flag is needed.
08:12:35 <zzo38> And yes you should support stdin. It is a good idea for UNIX programs and UNIX-like programs to use stdin/stdout.
08:12:41 <elliott> Yeah.
08:12:51 <elliott> zzo38: On the other hand, it should really print something if you use an stdin redirect too.
08:12:56 <elliott> zzo38: I'm thinking that you should be able to do e.g.
08:13:03 <elliott> bgrep (anything) | awk '{print $3}'
08:13:05 <elliott> And always get the raw offsets.
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08:16:27 <zzo38> \edef\a{\relax} \edef\b{\ifnum0=0\fi} \show\a \show\b \message{\ifx\a\b1\else0\fi}
08:20:05 <zzo38> I have invented the TRIP'' test.
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09:08:49 <elliott> 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB) copied, 302.797 s, 3.5 MB/s
09:08:49 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Code/bgrep$ time ./bgrep ab foo >/dev/null
09:08:49 <elliott> real0m22.442s
09:11:42 <elliott> That's a whole 45.6 MiB/s. :p
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09:55:03 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/SFFO ;; this needs to exist, desperately
09:55:12 <elliott> (in case you can't tell, the bot is running on a server there)
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09:16:13 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: your client sucks
09:16:15 <elliott> and/or connection
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09:38:54 <oklopol> "<pikhq> You possess sexual attractions. You don't "make up your mind" about them, they just kinda are." <<< rather easy to change tho
09:38:58 <oklopol> at least add
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09:39:18 <elliott> oklopol: for you :)
09:40:07 <oklopol> everyone is just like me; also did you know you're here almost all the time?
09:41:01 <elliott> oklopol: well i haven't slept.
09:42:42 <oklopol> makes sense
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10:10:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i no slept
10:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I yes slept.
10:10:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I YOU NO
10:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I no you.
10:11:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: iffidff
10:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Recidivism.
10:11:29 <elliott> QUITE SO NIGGA
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11:38:32 * Phantom_Hoover cheers
11:38:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: PASTEUR
11:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I got a fairly stable orbit working!
11:39:26 <coppro> in what?
11:39:51 <elliott> coppro: his 2d thing
11:39:57 <oklopol> stable orbits have to evolve from random configurations
11:40:01 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, in the terrible simulation of Newtonian orbits!
11:40:05 <coppro> ah
11:40:07 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, it's close enough!
11:40:14 <coppro> can you make a stable 3-body system?
11:40:20 <oklopol> can you get vid out
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11:41:52 <elliott> fizzie FIZZ FIZZ FIZZ
11:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, video? Oh, how you make me laugh.
11:41:52 <elliott> pop!
11:41:53 <elliott> bang
11:41:58 <elliott> kop kop kop
11:42:03 <elliott> these are all noises fizzie makes
11:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Currently I'm just staring at a table of figures to check if there's some periodicity.
11:42:24 <oklopol> :)
11:43:01 <elliott> fizzie: SCHHHHHTOP SCHHHHTOP SHHHHHCKLOPP!!
11:43:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, also, I carefully tuned things so that an orbit would be there, so it says little about proper stability.
11:44:03 <oklopol> erm, k
11:44:10 <oklopol> that's almost stability from random configs
11:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's still something.
11:44:20 <elliott> fizzie: rah! kalibut.
11:44:23 <elliott> fizzie: offulence; tipsit!
11:44:56 <oklopol> sure, but i've implemented a system of 2d planets about 4 times, and never got it to work, so if you're really just using the usual formula, i don't see how it could work
11:46:58 <coppro> usual formula?
11:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, F=Gm_1m_2/r^2
11:47:49 <coppro> was asking oklopol thanks
11:47:58 <oklopol> coppro, F=Gm_1m_2/r^2
11:48:34 <elliott> your mom = F
11:48:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Where m_1 and m_2 are the masses in question, r is the distance between them and G is the universal constant of gravitation.
11:48:50 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Where m_1 and m_2 are the masses in question, r is the distance between them and G is the universal constant of gravitation.
11:48:51 <elliott> O RLY
11:48:52 <elliott> O RLY
11:48:52 <elliott> O RLY
11:48:52 <elliott> O RLY
11:48:58 <elliott> imagine the O RLYs fade as you go downwards
11:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, go to bed.
11:49:02 <elliott> that ist he effect i am trying to convey
11:49:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 11:48 + 8 = 19:48 = 7:48 pm, have to wake up at 9 am
11:49:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: in conclusion: no.
11:49:39 <oklopol> coppro: m_1 and m_2 are ofc the masses of the thingies, and r is the distance between them, G is the universal constant of gravitation
11:50:33 <coppro> I know what the equation is
11:50:47 <coppro> I just am not looking at IRC 100% of the time
11:50:48 <oklopol> just making sure
11:50:48 <elliott> oklopol: you forgot to tell me to go to bed
11:50:54 <oklopol> elliott: yes
11:51:00 <oklopol> was just thinking whether i should
11:51:03 <coppro> anyways, the problem with any physical simluation like this is pretty straightforward
11:51:25 <coppro> the forces change instantaneously as soon as positions change
11:51:32 <coppro> and need to be modeled as a curve
11:51:35 <oklopol> yeah and usually that doesn't matter
11:51:42 <oklopol> no they don't
11:51:45 <oklopol> the problem is not that
11:51:47 <coppro> if you perform granular calculations, you will screw up
11:51:51 <oklopol> no
11:52:16 <oklopol> the problem is the 2d orbits, they don't like staying in shape even with curves
11:52:55 <oklopol> well, at least according to what i've heard, you might be right, i just doubt it
11:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, FWIW, there's still a pretty small deviation after 4 orbital periods.
11:53:49 <coppro> oh, also floating point error
11:53:51 <coppro> floating point is a bitch
11:54:03 <coppro> (if you are using it, of course)
11:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but in a sufficiently stable system, that won't matter too much.
11:54:09 <oklopol> yeah that doesn't matter either
11:54:16 <coppro> sure it matters
11:54:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is basically what we're investigating.
11:54:21 <oklopol> matters in what sense
11:54:31 <coppro> because if one value you try to represent is unrepresentable, then you are going to introduce error
11:54:36 <coppro> and that error will never leave your calculation
11:55:00 <oklopol> eh?
11:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, yes, but the point is that *a stable orbit won't be destroyed by that*.
11:55:07 <oklopol> i think we're talking about a completely different thing
11:55:21 <oklopol> what are you "representing"?
11:55:26 <elliott> just use rationals and it will be fun and slow
11:55:44 <oklopol> we are talking about the stability and sensibility of a physics based on discretization instead of curves, nothing to do with the real world
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11:55:57 <oklopol> or representation
11:56:02 <oklopol> we just want to see if it looks nice.
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11:56:43 <oklopol> and the dynamics happens to be pretty much the same with discretization and with curves
11:56:50 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: it might be
11:57:14 <coppro> I'm talking about discretization and curves
11:57:27 <coppro> because it is pretty straightforward to calculate an orbital setup that should be 100% stable
11:58:53 <coppro> also einstein rings are cool
11:59:07 <oklopol> it shouldn't matter for the stability of orbits for instance, the point that always stays discretized corresponds to a real-valued point where you set up the coordinates so that the detail you see when applying the dynamics is the result of the discretization; so you'll probably have to have all these points suddenly jump out of the orbit for some reason even in the real-valued simulation
12:00:07 <oklopol> discretized points are in some sense dense in the set of all points, well, for a fixed amount of application of the dynamics anyway
12:01:49 <coppro> But there's also discretization of time, and that's the bitch
12:02:07 <coppro> avoiding discretization of points is easy
12:02:19 <coppro> but discretzing time means your orbit simply won't be stable
12:02:44 <coppro> pretty sure I could prove this but I have been far too away lately
12:02:48 <coppro> *awake
12:03:21 <elliott> coppro: im the more wake than you asshole
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12:07:04 <coppro> see the problem is all the cool stuff happens at night
12:07:10 <coppro> but all the important stuff happens during the day
12:07:23 <elliott> coppro: important is boring
12:08:04 <coppro> ezactly
12:08:06 <coppro> *exactly
12:08:30 <elliott> coppro: so let's no important
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12:08:36 <elliott> or else daggers
12:08:53 <coppro> elliott: turns out there are a ton of cool places in this university that they don't like students to be in (but don't let them know I know they don't like us there)
12:09:25 <coppro> possibly I should not have said that in a logged channel
12:09:39 <elliott> coppro: those places are known... as...
12:09:40 <elliott> BATHROOMS
12:09:44 <coppro> :D
12:09:45 <elliott> [dramatic music plays]
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12:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, FWIW, the orbit holds to 10 revolutions.
12:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Now to try for 100!
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12:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> After 100 revolutions, the orbits have decayed outwards by a minuscule amount.
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12:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover> On the order of 0.1cm for an orbit of 1m.
12:41:25 <nooga> bah
12:42:31 <nooga> what orbits?
12:42:55 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, the one in the Newtonian gravitational simulator I just wrote.
12:46:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/LispbuilderSDL
12:46:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do it, do it now
12:47:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't actually know how to use SDL.
12:48:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's really easy, you can just pixel-push
12:48:26 <elliott> plus little sprites if you need to, or circles
12:48:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, do I have to define the canvas size beforehand?
12:48:49 <elliott> canvas?
12:48:50 <elliott> window size, yes.
12:48:54 <elliott> internally, do what the hell you want.
12:49:05 <elliott> do computation --> render whatever slice you want onto window.
12:49:16 <elliott> allegro is nicer but since Allegro Common Lisp is the biggest, most expensive commercial CL you'll have no hope googling for an allegro-graphics-library binding :)
12:49:17 <elliott> SDL is fine
12:50:23 * Phantom_Hoover installs.
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12:54:55 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls /opt
12:54:55 <elliott> bash-4.1 egobf-0.7.1 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 ruby-1.9.2-p0
12:54:56 <elliott> CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2 emacs-23.2 nginx-0.8.53 Python-2.7 zsh-4.3.10
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12:59:07 <nooga> i was just playing Osmos
12:59:21 <nooga> on extremely annoying level with central attractor
13:02:25 <cheater00> did you finish the last one on the bottom left
13:02:33 <cheater00> with like 10 attractors
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13:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, give me two random sets of masses, coördinates and velocities.
13:23:16 <oklopol> that sounds hard
13:23:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Just (m,x,y,vx,vy).
13:24:33 <oklopol> have you considered calling random()
13:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd probably result in something with boring behaviour.
13:25:28 <oklopol> unlike mine?
13:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume you know what kind of random situations you were looking for stability in.
13:25:49 <oklopol> if i did it, i would probably do it by calling random... :D
13:26:13 <oklopol> well you know, the random kind of random situations
13:28:26 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try with a comet-and-start scenario.
13:30:08 <oklopol> *star ?
13:30:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, yeah.
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13:45:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, maybe I set G too high...
13:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course, the timekeeping is completely horrendous.
13:52:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: solved the n-body problem yet?
13:53:00 <elliott> hi bora
13:53:49 <bora> hi
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13:57:09 <poiuy_qwert> who said my name last night...? stupid channel buffer is small...
13:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I still need to try the SDL stuff.
13:58:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lawl
13:58:27 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: I said that your client and/or connection sucked because you were disconnecting and reconnecting ALL NIGHT.
13:58:41 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: And still are, according to a quick glance at my scrollback :P
13:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, the tables of figures are pretty hard to interpret.
13:59:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Considered just printing out an 80x24 ASCII rendition?
13:59:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just keep doing that and keep your terminal sized right. It could be larger than 80x24 if you want.
13:59:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Point is, not SDL sweetness, sure, but a hell of a lot easier to visualise.
14:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, given that plotting it is just a matter of "make the pixel at x,y <colour>"...
14:00:25 <poiuy_qwert> elliott: yes it does suck here (gf's house). the internet "dies" but my laptop doesn't know about it, then it comes back. to my laptop nothing happened but on IRC i timeout
14:00:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, it's basically a not-so-ultra-quick, 95-bit, 167x37 max or so (on my screen) display.
14:00:41 <elliott> Erm, not 95-bit.
14:00:54 <elliott> 6.57-bit.
14:01:03 <elliott> 94 printable chars + 1 space.
14:01:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, that's easy then.
14:01:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Assemble an array of colours out of a few. Loop through, print out the corresponding ASCII character.
14:01:27 <elliott> Aaand that's it :P
14:01:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Admittedly you'll want a zoomed-out version, or at least just a section of the plane, probably.
14:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, except that I am running in SLIME, hence sans terminal.
14:02:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sbcl --load foo
14:02:07 <elliott> (my-function)
14:02:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, SLIME is basically a terminal...
14:02:14 <elliott> But whatever.
14:02:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh, so without curses?
14:02:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes :P
14:02:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just print out the same amount of rows as you have your terminal sized.
14:03:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (You could also clear(1) in between prints, but if you have the terminal sized right, it'll just make the display choppier.)
14:03:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And just use a few printable chars to represent colours.
14:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I shall attempt it.
14:03:44 <elliott> . is super-light, ' slightly less so, + slightly less so, 0 slightly less so, @ is fully filled.
14:03:49 <elliott> Or @ is slightly less so, # is fully filled.
14:04:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FORMAT is your bloated, ambiguously-gay friend.
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14:04:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So 1 body is ., 2 is ', 3 is +, 4 0 and 5 @?
14:04:34 <elliott> Sure, whatever. Stick stuff in until it works.
14:04:36 <elliott> (That's what she said etc.)
14:04:43 <oklopol> ' > ., why?
14:04:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Slightly bigger?
14:04:55 <elliott> oklopol: because ' is like two .s on top of each other
14:04:57 <elliott> except at the top instead
14:04:58 <elliott> :P
14:04:59 <elliott> it's arbitrary!
14:05:18 <oklopol> ''s two .:s? i thought that was :
14:05:21 <nooga> asparagus syndrome
14:05:26 <oklopol> .'s
14:05:33 <elliott> oklopol: well ' is two .s right on top of each other
14:05:36 <elliott> they're pixelfucking
14:05:41 <elliott> in the air
14:05:42 <oklopol> ash!
14:05:46 <elliott> in the world of pixels there is no gravity
14:05:50 <elliott> asssssssssssssssh and smoke
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14:06:20 <nooga> use goddamn sdl
14:06:30 <elliott> nooga: that's for Phantom_Hoover's next version :p
14:06:38 <elliott> nooga: it's in common lisp, using libraries is non-trivial ;-)
14:07:01 * Phantom_Hoover writes the single ugliest piece of initialisation code he has ever written.
14:08:08 <oklopol> the first time i used c after using basic, i wrote a function called initialize, which defined all the global functions i needed in my program
14:08:21 <elliott> :D
14:08:25 <elliott> when was that, yesterday
14:08:38 <oklopol> it was when i was 10
14:08:54 <oklopol> or 18
14:08:58 <elliott> or 21
14:08:59 <oklopol> something like that
14:09:02 <oklopol> yeah maybe
14:09:10 <elliott> or 3
14:09:17 <oklopol> 3 or 23?
14:09:23 <elliott> yeah
14:09:25 <elliott> or 47
14:09:28 <elliott> could be
14:09:28 <oklopol> yes
14:09:37 <oklopol> haven't really given it that much thought
14:09:43 <oklopol> anwyay
14:09:47 <oklopol> *anyway
14:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, why not just print the number?
14:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, until it goes over 9.
14:14:07 <elliott> less visable
14:14:14 <elliott> visible
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14:17:44 * Phantom_Hoover gives up.
14:17:52 <elliott> why
14:17:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I may attempt it again at a later date.
14:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, because I'm absurdly incompetent at any form of display code.
14:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Read: "lazy".
14:18:43 <elliott> print 80 times 24 bytes
14:18:48 <elliott> repeat
14:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what happens if a mass moves outside the 80x24 region?
14:36:48 * Zuu stuffs a cookie into nooga's mouth
14:37:20 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, oh dear god.
14:47:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: you are unable to compute whether a point belongs to a rectangle?
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14:48:57 <oklopol> just checking
14:49:32 <oklopol> that's done by doing it one coordinate at a time, so basically you need to be able to use the <-operator
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14:53:35 * Phantom_Hoover goes insane.
15:12:33 <olsner> "goes"? but that would imply you weren't already!
15:12:41 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, *more
15:13:51 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: how do you go insane? I want to try.
15:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, there are a number of ways.
15:14:38 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them is to listen to Sgeo singing karaoke, although it tends to vastly overshoot the desired level of insanity.
15:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg
15:14:54 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're feeling brave...
15:20:30 <Mathnerd314> nope, not much insanity. but I only listened to 1/2
15:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously you're so insane you've deluded yourself that you are sane.
15:23:00 <Mathnerd314> but I want to be *certifiably* insane
15:24:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, what's your favourite language?
15:24:22 <Mathnerd314> my own
15:24:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Describe.
15:28:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, compiling SBCL with CLISP takes forever.
15:28:44 <Mathnerd314> well, it's untyped, functional, pure, mostly syntaxless, and supports imperative-style programming
15:30:21 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: ^ sounds close to insanity yet?
15:30:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Exceedingly.
15:31:56 <Mathnerd314> but I don't think it's actually insane, just mind-blowing, because I have it half-implemented already
15:40:27 <nooga> lol
15:40:30 <nooga> stop stealing my ideas
15:45:48 <Mathnerd314> nooga: my ideas! mine!
15:46:59 <Mathnerd314> nooga: I came up with them at least a year ago!
16:00:36 <mycroftiv> elliott: I know you weren't talking to me, but by a wonderful coincidence "make it detect the client" was actually good helpful advice for a software project I'm working on, so thanks!
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17:06:41 <oklopol> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg isn't sung very well
17:07:06 <Mathnerd314> yeah, the mic is bad
17:07:45 <oklopol> well yes but also his g is totally flat in bar 47
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19:03:37 <zzo38> Is the channel broken? It says it is but it doesn't seem so?
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19:03:44 <Slereah_> :V
19:10:26 <pikhq> Huh. The TSA has started doing backscatter X-rays of passengers. Performed by people who've had 2 days of training. And refuse to allow safety testing on the machines.
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19:13:52 <pikhq> Seems a bit stupid to me. But, then, all their security procedures seem stupid to me.
19:14:16 <olsner> yay, we have system calls :) too bad I have no user-space to call them
19:16:56 <zzo38> mycroftiv: What software project?
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20:33:11 <Vorpal> zzo38, I believe the statement about the channel being broken could be best described as a joke, and a reference to something (don't remember to what atm, might just be a general reference)
20:33:48 <Vorpal> olsner, system calls for what?
20:35:40 -!- iGO has left (?).
20:36:00 <olsner> Vorpal: I'm making a little kernel, just for fun
20:36:08 <Vorpal> olsner, ah nice
20:36:29 <Vorpal> olsner, posix-like or your own API?
20:36:40 <olsner> probably my own API, posix is overrated
20:36:53 <Vorpal> olsner, a lot more sensible than the win32 api though ;P
20:37:02 <Vorpal> but then, almost everything is
20:37:43 <olsner> posix is mostly just the average of the major unix flavors at some point in time, plus some new stuff they thought a standard would need
20:37:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Woo, code that renders stuff!
20:37:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the raytracer?
20:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what raytracer?
20:38:06 <olsner> so, the old stuff is old and messy, and the new stuff is committeed and sometimes useless
20:38:11 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean the gravity simulation.
20:38:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, wasn't it you who said you wanted to make a non-euclidan raytracer
20:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, not that.
20:38:36 <olsner> (at least that's the impression I get - I'm no expert in posix)
20:38:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah
20:40:04 <Vorpal> olsner, well, it is useful to study still. Learning both from what they did get right and from their mistakes. (Just think of the numerous different "create temporary file with unique name" functions...)
20:40:07 <olsner> lol, animated bunnies vs animated camels
20:42:26 <Vorpal> tmpnam, tempnam, mktemp, tmpfile, mkstemp...
20:42:33 <Vorpal> (there might be more)
20:43:50 * ais523 tries to figure out what something likely is if Vorpal describes it as a joke
20:43:57 <ais523> a... sentence?
20:47:17 <Vorpal> ais523, err. I was trying to explain the topic to zzo38, he asked about the first bit...
20:47:26 <ais523> ah, OK
20:47:40 <Vorpal> ais523, "joke" is not exactly the right word. But well, I couldn't think of a better approximation...
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21:00:34 <oklopol> okay minecraft doesn't run on my computer
21:03:59 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:05:37 <fizzie> oklopol: It's Java, of course it runs anywhere. ("Write once, run anywhere.")
21:06:38 -!- wareya has joined.
21:06:45 <oklopol> i mean i don't have the computational power for it
21:07:43 <fizzie> What if you twiddle the settings down to minimum? (It does sort-of need hardwarey 3D, I guess.)
21:07:52 <oklopol> yeah doesn't help
21:08:09 <oklopol> so how do you put a box down
21:08:49 <oklopol> and what exactly can i do, or do i need to find the inspiration to build something massive right away
21:09:05 <oklopol> i certainly will not on this computer, but anyway
21:09:16 <fizzie> Right-clickery generally puts down a box.
21:09:27 <fizzie> Except if you try to right-click a thing.
21:12:51 <oklopol> you didn't answer, is there something i can do :D
21:13:08 <oklopol> this is really ugly, i thought the game would be textureless
21:17:44 <fizzie> I don't know what you can do; I just do things that make no sense.
21:17:59 <fizzie> Building a home is a common sort of thing, though.
21:18:04 <fizzie> Or digging them mines.
21:18:13 <fizzie> The latter nets you interesting stuff.
21:18:13 <oklopol> i guess that could be interesting
21:18:24 <oklopol> just feels a little restricted in 3d
21:18:25 <fizzie> And cavern-spelunking is always good, clean fun.
21:18:31 <oklopol> as opposed to 2d
21:18:33 <fizzie> Except when you get eaten by zombies, but anyway.
21:19:02 <oklopol> where are all the zombies?
21:19:26 <oklopol> i just play one-player because the instructions for lanning were too complicated
21:21:06 <oklopol> how do you get more health
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21:27:52 <fizzie> There's evil critters around at night-time, and then in the caves you may find groups too.
21:27:59 <fizzie> You get health back by eating food.
21:28:10 <fizzie> Or at least some food.
21:29:26 <fizzie> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Category:Food has a nifty chart how much the different foods heal.
21:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I'm installing Sun's JDK; should that make it work?
21:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, indeed.
21:38:29 <fizzie> What was *that* about?
21:39:46 <Vorpal> <oklopol> i mean i don't have the computational power for it <--- try "fast graphics" (if alpha, and not classic)
21:40:54 <Vorpal> <fizzie> And cavern-spelunking is always good, clean fun. <-- except when it is "oh shit, fell 50 blocks, and landed in lava"
21:41:04 <nooga> my god
21:41:08 <nooga> how is this even possible
21:41:21 <Vorpal> nooga, falling?
21:42:13 <nooga> i remember that one guy from gamedev.pl wrote a game that was multiplayer and allowed to mine and set blocks, build houses from block & stuff and it looked better than minecraft
21:42:21 <nooga> it was, huh, in 2003 ?
21:42:39 <nooga> how come that such a crap gets so many players and cash
21:42:40 <Vorpal> nooga, minecraft is intentionally retro though
21:42:51 <nooga> i don't think so
21:43:14 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway good gameplay beats good graphics
21:43:24 <nooga> that's true
21:43:32 <nooga> but it might have looked better
21:43:58 <Vorpal> nooga, well, is it classic or alpha? iirc alpha has a "better looking" mode. That mode is too slow for me though
21:44:07 <nooga> and if it looks like a game from early 90's it could run faster ona c2d laptop with A GRAPHIC CARD
21:44:14 <Vorpal> better looking I think means somewhat higher res textures
21:44:24 <Vorpal> nooga, c2d?
21:44:30 <nooga> core 2 duo
21:44:34 <Vorpal> ah
21:44:38 <nooga> i guess it's software rendered
21:44:45 <Vorpal> nooga, no it isn't
21:44:49 <Vorpal> or well, it isn't for me
21:44:49 <fizzie> It's OpenGL.
21:44:52 <nooga> then WTF?!
21:45:00 <nooga> why do i get 10 FPS?
21:45:05 <fizzie> And why on earth would you try to apply logic to popularity of a thing?
21:45:10 <Vorpal> runs fast on my sempron 3300+ with nvidia geforce 7600 GS (AGP)
21:45:11 <nooga> i play Half-Life 2 without any glitches on the same machine
21:45:54 <Vorpal> nooga, is it the free one or the one you have to pay for?
21:46:04 <Vorpal> if the latter you can set "fast graphics"
21:46:21 <nooga> the free one
21:46:29 <Vorpal> well hm. That one runs fast too
21:46:33 <nooga> i guess it was written by some student in 2-3 days
21:46:40 <Vorpal> somewhat slower than the non-free
21:46:44 <fizzie> As far as speeds go, it animates just fine on my geforce-7-thousand-and-something box, don't know more.
21:47:01 <fizzie> Haven't tried the in-browser things ever, though.
21:47:02 <nooga> "well, i know a bit of java and we did opengl during the classes so uh, i will write funny game" he thought
21:47:11 <Vorpal> nooga, ran fine on some a pentium m with intel graphics yesterday
21:47:17 <Phantom_Hoover> How does one spelunk?
21:47:19 <Vorpal> both the free one and the non-free
21:47:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by performing the act of spelunking!
21:47:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you don't know the word, try google.
21:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, digging straight down, or what?
21:48:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, FAIL
21:48:35 <Vorpal> also digging straight down = sudden death (except for the free one, but the free one is rather boring compared to the non-free)
21:49:15 <fizzie> You can dig a shaft straight down and leave a spiral staircase around, if you want.
21:49:32 <fizzie> A regular 45 degree stairway-mine is easier, though.
21:49:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, just don't dig straight below you, that is a bad idea
21:50:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I suspect the 45° one is somewhat easier to mincartise.
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21:52:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, though I haven't used mine crafts for much vertical travel so far. Built a transport system between 4 stations though.
21:52:29 <Vorpal> that was just below the surface
21:53:00 <Vorpal> I found that on top of the ground was a bad idea, animals mess up your boosters and what not
22:04:23 <nooga> how about other players?
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22:54:12 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, I bought minecraft
22:54:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god, I really ought not to read scary things.
22:54:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what did you read?
22:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Some TV Tropes page.
22:54:46 <Vorpal> me buying closed source?
22:54:48 <Vorpal> hah
22:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Naw.
22:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm fine, anyway.
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23:13:14 <nooga> Vorpal: was it worth it?
23:14:01 <Vorpal> nooga, yes indeed.
23:14:11 <Vorpal> nooga, just 94 SEK too, not very expensive
23:14:35 <Vorpal> err, 94.84, so rounded wrong way
23:15:01 <Vorpal> nooga, iirc the author said he would double the price after alpha, but if you bought it now it will continue being available then
23:15:27 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway you can find a slightly old version at a certain bay. I used that to make sure I would like it
23:15:29 <nooga> what an impertinence
23:15:47 <Vorpal> wouldn't have bought it without being able to try it
23:16:00 <nooga> i hate the author
23:16:10 <Vorpal> nooga, why?
23:16:27 <Quadlex> Minecraft is cheap at thrice the price
23:16:38 <Vorpal> Quadlex, no, it wouldn't be
23:16:40 <Quadlex> Vorpal: You asked your uncle Torrence if you could try it first?
23:17:06 <Vorpal> Quadlex, actually found the linux version linked in a comment that he made
23:17:20 <nooga> fuck
23:17:46 <nooga> cheesy virtual lego for 4 packs of cigarettes
23:18:00 <Vorpal> Quadlex, it was actually aunt Eitch T. Teepee that provided it thus.
23:26:36 <zzo38> Does Frama-C support the #line command?
23:29:55 <nooga> Frama-C?
23:31:11 <Vorpal> nooga, frama-c is an awesome tool for formal verification of C code.
23:31:16 <Vorpal> night →
23:31:59 <olsner> hehe, I seem to have made user-space run with kernel privileges
23:37:11 <Quadlex> Vorpal: Ahh, she's a useful old broad
23:38:04 <zzo38> I think the only thing needed to use Frama-C with Enhanced CWEB is if Frama-C supports the #line command, and then a code such as @=/*@@...*/@> can be used to enter the comments needed for Frama-C.
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