←2010-11-16 2010-11-17 2010-11-18→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:00 <elliott> Sgeo_: I was just checking.
00:00:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure. But in general using a better optimising compiler than pcc for libc might be a good idea
00:00:38 <elliott> Vorpal: " The only optimization added so far is a multiple-register-class graph-coloring register allocator, which may be one of the best register allocators today. Conversion to SSA format is also implemented, but not yet the phi function. Not too difficult though, after that strength reduction is high on the list." --pcc, 2007
00:00:45 <elliott> Gregor: It's actually 2007.
00:00:48 <elliott> Vorpal: *"The
00:00:57 <Vorpal> hm
00:00:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Since 2007 it'll have gotten better. pcc isn't some weakling :P
00:00:59 <Gregor> elliott: Probably later than 1990 too.
00:01:06 <elliott> Gregor: A brief hiatus!
00:01:25 <elliott> Gregor: Admittedly, it only started running on x86 in 2007 or so when it got picked back up. :-)
00:01:29 <elliott> Nobody ever bothered to port it before.
00:01:38 <elliott> It might have been 2006.
00:01:42 <Vorpal> elliott, true. But you want the best for code that contains many performance sensitive functions. And that is used by virtually everything
00:01:47 <elliott> It was imported into OpenBSD and NetBSD in September 2007.
00:01:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, true. I will probably measure stuff.
00:02:06 <Vorpal> elliott, of course you should
00:02:09 <Gregor> elliott: Hm, I thought that the x86 BSDs and AT&T Unix had a pcc-based CC at the time ... I guess not.
00:02:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Note that it is perfectly possible to use a different libc for a single application, if you really wanted to for some strange reason.
00:02:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway good luck geting openoffice linked statically
00:02:26 <Vorpal> I don't think it is possible
00:02:29 <elliott> Gregor: Perhaps they did and the code was never released. But I think a version of BSD predating x86 Unix switched to gcc...
00:02:31 <sshc> elliott: Debian is far superior from Archlinux, because its packages are always from the good ol' days.
00:02:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I probably won't.
00:02:41 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, VirtualBox's *OpenGL* acceleration "just works".
00:02:42 <elliott> sshc: You're a moron.
00:02:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I need openoffice btw. Too many people at university uses formats like that
00:02:54 <pikhq> elliott: The Direct3D stuff is painful.
00:02:55 <sshc> You're a mormon.
00:03:01 <elliott> sshc: (I ran sid the other day and it had packages that were a WEEK old!)
00:03:06 <pikhq> elliott: Especially because you need to install it in safe mode for it to work.
00:03:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed. (Ever tried AbiWord?)
00:03:17 <elliott> pikhq: Indeed.
00:03:23 <Vorpal> elliott, last I needed to work with a *.xls
00:03:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Gnumeric can use *.xls :P
00:03:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and the day before that a *.ppt
00:03:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, for that you need OpenOffice.
00:03:55 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
00:03:58 <Sgeo_> What about LibreOffice?
00:03:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: The solution is to send the next person who sends you one a bill for Microsoft Office.
00:04:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Maybe that'll give the fuckers a clue.
00:04:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Sgeo_ actually made a pertinent remark that it'll be LibreOffice I package.
00:04:18 <elliott> Seeing as OpenOffice is dead :P
00:04:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well, what presentation program on linux then?
00:04:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I use go-openoffice
00:04:33 <pikhq> (oh, and, of course, don't actually buy Office with it; instead, get a new computer.)
00:04:33 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
00:04:38 <elliott> Vorpal: OpenOffice died. It's now called LibreOffice.
00:04:44 <Vorpal> elliott, heh
00:04:48 <Vorpal> elliott, when?
00:04:58 <elliott> Vorpal: (tl;dr Oracle took over Sun, OpenOffice devs went "NO FUCK THAT", created The Document Foundation to develop LibreOffice which is OpenOffice.)
00:05:10 <gm|lap> interesting
00:05:14 <Vorpal> hm
00:05:19 <elliott> Vorpal: (Then Oracle kicked all the relevant people (everyone) off the OO.o council.)
00:05:33 <pikhq> Technically, OO.o exists still. However, everyone but Oracle has gone "fuck you".
00:05:35 <elliott> On September 28, 2010, some members of the OpenOffice.org Project formed a new group called The Document Foundation, and made available a rebranded fork of OpenOffice.org, provisionally named LibreOffice. The Foundation stated that it will coordinate and oversee the development of LibreOffice. Oracle was invited to become a member of the Document Foundation, and was also asked to donate the OpenOffice.org brand to the project.[39]
00:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I have been using this variant: http://go-oo.org/
00:05:44 <elliott> Vorpal: "Go-oo improvements are being merged in LibreOffice. Improvements done in other forks are expected to be incorporated as well.[43][44]"
00:05:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Ubuntu uses Go-oo, FWIW.
00:05:57 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I know
00:06:01 <Vorpal> (that it does)
00:06:02 <elliott> Vorpal: The reason Go-oo stuff wasn't in before is because Sun were being dicks about it.
00:06:03 <Vorpal> elliott, hm nice
00:06:07 * Sgeo_ misread that as "Then Oracle killed"
00:06:08 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:06:23 <elliott> "Canonical, Novell and Red Hat plan to include LibreOffice in forthcoming versions of their operating systems.[2]"
00:06:43 <gm|lap> in other words they've at least tried to turn the tables?
00:06:54 <elliott> gm|lap: pretty much
00:07:03 <Vorpal> elliott, seems libreoffice is "beta"
00:07:12 <elliott> Vorpal: It's not really beta :P
00:07:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:07:17 <elliott> They just haven't made "1.0" yet.
00:07:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I was a bit surprised at that
00:07:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, Kitten will package most stuff. But of course the priority is stuff that doesn't suck.
00:07:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's forked from the OO.o development tree, rather than the latest version.
00:07:57 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. I should install some package you won't ever package
00:08:03 <Vorpal> just to annoy you
00:08:14 <Vorpal> ooh. php. But wait, I don't want that.
00:08:19 <Vorpal> no the price would be too large
00:08:20 <elliott> Vorpal: You are free to run the few commands it'll take to create a Kitten package from that and I will probably maintain it :P
00:08:30 <pikhq> He'll probably package PHP eventually.
00:08:41 <Vorpal> mysql? :P
00:08:51 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, compilations will probably be done on my local box to start with. By the time it becomes relevant, I'll hopefully have a better box by then.
00:08:51 <Sgeo_> elliott, so no PSOX, then
00:09:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm sure 4 cores at ~2.4 GHz and 12 GiB of RAM should suffice to build everything with *reasonable* speed :P
00:09:44 <elliott> pikhq: I *might* package PHP. :P
00:09:47 <Vorpal> elliott, like by the time you want to build libreoffice?
00:10:00 <Vorpal> elliott, mysql?
00:10:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, y'know what? You're the official LibreOffice maintainer. What an honour!
00:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, alas my system is unable to compile it :P
00:10:17 <elliott> Vorpal: MySQL I... will probably avoid packaging because it's Oracle.
00:10:25 <elliott> Vorpal: (I could avoid packaging it because it sucks, but Oracle is a better excuse.)
00:10:29 <Vorpal> elliott, hm need to replace virtualbox now that it is oracle...
00:10:40 <Vorpal> but no good replacement. (qemu just doesn't cut it)
00:10:44 <elliott> Vorpal: I think VirtualBox can stay until it's forked or something X-P
00:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: But MySQL has perfectly cromulent alternatives already.
00:11:17 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, thing is I need features from the closed variant. Of course they will probably be implemented soon once it is forked
00:11:25 <elliott> Indeed :P
00:11:36 * pikhq groans
00:11:39 * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers krecipe asking whether to use MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQLite. No end-user of a recipe program should need to make such a decision
00:11:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, what?
00:11:43 <elliott> Vorpal: That's an example of why the "Open Free!" / "Better Version $$$" model sucks.
00:11:46 <pikhq> Oracle apparently renamed StarOffice to "Oracle Open Office".
00:11:50 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed.
00:11:55 <elliott> Vorpal: The corporation can hold back development because it doesn't align with their profits.
00:12:08 <Vorpal> elliott, open free / pay for support works much better
00:12:10 <elliott> * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers krecipe asking whether to use MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQLite. No end-user of a recipe program should need to make such a decision
00:12:12 <elliott> welcome to KDE!
00:12:13 <pikhq> Yes, they make OpenOffice.org and Oracle Open Office.
00:12:18 <pikhq> So much stupid.
00:12:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed! Now suddenly your software is so intuitive that nobody needs support any more.
00:12:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, what was star office?
00:12:31 <Sgeo_> elliott, I... are you telling me that that wasn't just that one program?
00:12:32 <elliott> Whoops! You have an incentive to make it need support.
00:12:34 <Sgeo_> And it was years ago
00:12:38 <Vorpal> wasn't it just an old name for openoffice?
00:12:42 <Vorpal> before it became open?
00:12:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It's also the commercial version of OpenOffice.
00:12:55 <Vorpal> heh
00:13:11 <Vorpal> elliott, so what did it contain that openoffice didn't?
00:13:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: Star Office:OpenOffice.org::Netscape::Mozilla
00:13:28 <Sgeo_> pikhq, since when did anyone have to pay for Netscape?
00:13:32 <pikhq> Erm, StarOffice.
00:13:44 <pikhq> Sgeo_: While back.
00:14:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, errhm. what does the : count signify?
00:14:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, considering that it varies over the line
00:14:17 <elliott> Vorpal: a:b::c:d
00:14:20 <elliott> a is to b as c is to d
00:14:21 <elliott> common notation
00:14:30 <Vorpal> elliott, he used *two* the last time
00:14:35 <elliott> Simple typo :P
00:14:38 <Vorpal> right
00:14:44 <elliott> Normally the :: would be set off by spaces.
00:14:45 <Vorpal> but that means it didn't make much sense
00:14:49 <pikhq> Yuh, typo.
00:15:20 <Sgeo_> Vorpal si easily confused by tyops1 mahahaha
00:15:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, no I'm not.
00:15:32 <Vorpal> not that sort of typos
00:15:39 <pikhq> Sgeo_: In fact, Netscape has only been a free browser for 12 years.
00:16:02 <Vorpal> elliott, btw. did you see that about panorama comic bringing a new meaning to "no forth wall"?
00:16:08 <pikhq> The exact same instant that the source code was released.
00:16:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes.
00:16:32 <Sgeo_> <3 1/0 <3 T&R
00:16:51 <elliott> 1/0 is not less than three.
00:17:01 <Vorpal> elliott, also 5th wall. Would that be when the comic character is not only aware of the author and reader. But aware of that they are just in the mind of the author and have no "free will"?
00:17:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I -- was going to say something in this sentence.
00:17:12 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, also 5th wall. Would that be when the comic character is not only aware of the author and reader. But aware of that they are just in the mind of the author and have no "free will"?
00:17:14 <elliott> ITT 1/0 :P
00:17:20 <Vorpal> elliott, 1/0?
00:17:20 <elliott> http://www.undefined.net/1/0/
00:17:22 <elliott> Vorpal:
00:17:30 <pikhq> Nor is it more than three.
00:17:33 <elliott> (Note: Art gets better.)
00:17:39 <Vorpal> oh that one
00:17:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, but I meant taken even further
00:17:57 <elliott> Vorpal: It is hard to take it even further than that :P
00:18:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Considering at the end the author has convinced himself that the characters actually exist after they themselves doubt it.
00:18:54 <Sgeo_> Ghanny makes an argument that the author is no more real than they are, iirc
00:18:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well, convinced himself in the comic
00:19:02 <Vorpal> elliott, we don't know if he did for real
00:19:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Pretty sure in real life :P
00:19:07 <elliott> Vorpal: He's crazy enough.
00:19:13 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be screwy
00:19:15 <elliott> Also a monotheist, which shows in a sequence of comics around 300 irritatingly.
00:19:59 <elliott> Here: http://www.undefined.net/1/0/9/994.gif
00:20:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Interestingly, GNU coreutils is both one of the things I least want to package and pretty high up the list of things I need to :P
00:20:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll bet anything there's hundreds of dependencies on gsed and gawk in the world.
00:20:58 <Vorpal> haha
00:21:10 <elliott> Vorpal: (Case in point: gmake.)
00:21:11 <Vorpal> elliott, but awk is not in coreutils?
00:21:14 <elliott> GNU make I *must* package :P
00:21:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Meh, who cares, it's all the same :P
00:21:31 <Vorpal> elliott, gmake, gawk and gsed are all outside. Yes you need them though
00:21:38 <elliott> Vorpal: At least OS X gets by without GNU coreutils, but even then its "make" is gmake.
00:21:40 <Vorpal> and probably coreutils too
00:21:48 <Sgeo_> elliott, Petitus calls the author out on the author pushing his views
00:21:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, OS X gets fine without them. Although iirc some OCaml stuff depended on gsed for some tiny little option (not joking).
00:22:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I can probably avoid the actual coreutils, though.
00:22:12 <elliott> Sgeo_: I know.
00:22:18 <Vorpal> elliott, you probably need /bin/sh to be bash too
00:22:22 <elliott> Sgeo_: But nobody seriously challenges him.
00:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of stuff breaks when it isn't
00:22:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It isn't on Debian or Ubuntu.
00:22:30 <elliott> Vorpal: And hasn't been for years.
00:22:46 <Vorpal> elliott, yes and it breaks compiling stuff that uses bash syntax in make or configure
00:22:51 <Vorpal> elliott, they patch the packages :P
00:22:54 * Sgeo_ needs glowing retinas
00:22:55 <Vorpal> to call bash
00:22:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Used to, but dash is more compatible now.
00:23:00 <Vorpal> or to use another syntax
00:23:08 <elliott> Vorpal: But, uh, I'll probably ship something more compatible than dash.
00:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Said packages need to be patched or raped.
00:23:10 <Vorpal> elliott, still happens for me every now and then
00:23:18 <pikhq> elliott: Bourne.
00:23:25 <elliott> pikhq: lol no :P
00:23:33 <pikhq> elliott: Bash 1? :P
00:23:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Perhaps Busybox's hush shell or something.
00:23:45 <pikhq> shish!
00:23:50 <elliott> Vorpal: The default shell will be pdksh, and at least GNU autotools will be satisfied with that.
00:24:02 <elliott> Vorpal: You can probably use zsh in place of bash most of the time, too. Of course bash will be a package.
00:24:10 <elliott> Well. It might not actually be pdksh.
00:24:23 <elliott> Probably one of the portable versions of OpenBSD's ksh, which is based on pdksh.
00:24:25 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Nitpicker.
00:24:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't like zsh :P
00:24:45 <pikhq> Actually, zsh in place of bash should "just work". Given that it pretends to be bash when argv[0] is bash.
00:24:49 <Vorpal> I actually like and use bash
00:24:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but it's more bloated than even bash :)
00:25:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, it doesn't support esoteric stuff that bash does
00:25:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: zsh is quite nice, if absurdly bloated.
00:25:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't recall bash being hard to build, so it'll probably be in there.
00:25:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, there was some weird thing, forgot what
00:25:23 <elliott> I use bash right now, but I'll just use ksh in Kitten; bash just happens to be Debian's default and I'm lazy :P
00:25:28 <pikhq> elliott: Fortunately, yeah, bash should be installable by your inst.
00:25:29 <elliott> I haven't even configured it.
00:25:35 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not using inst for this :P
00:25:38 <elliott> pikhq: (but yes, it is)
00:25:42 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls /opt
00:25:42 <elliott> bash-4.1 emacs-23.2 nginx-0.8.53 ruby-1.9.2-p0
00:25:42 <elliott> CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 zsh-4.3.10
00:25:42 <elliott> egobf-0.7.1 nasm-2.09.03 Python-2.7
00:25:43 <elliott> pikhq: zsh too
00:25:53 <Vorpal> elliott, inst?
00:25:57 <pikhq> Yes, but that kinda demonstrates that it's at least *sane* to package.
00:25:58 <Nitpicker> Dear download: Why aren't you done?
00:26:07 <elliott> Vorpal: You give it a URL to a tarball and it automatically configures, builds, and installs it.
00:26:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: Automated wget&&./configure&&make&&make install
00:26:13 <elliott> Vorpal: It even works with Perl packages.
00:26:14 <elliott> pikhq: No.
00:26:14 <Vorpal> hm
00:26:16 <elliott> pikhq: More sophisticated.
00:26:18 <elliott> You insult my work :P
00:26:27 <elliott> Also, it uses curl, not wget.
00:26:27 <pikhq> Except better, because elliott is awesome.
00:26:32 <elliott> Yes. I am the best person ever.
00:26:33 <elliott> Pretty much.
00:26:36 <elliott> In fact you should all give me money.
00:26:38 <Vorpal> bash you need to patch. They do a shitload of patches after releases
00:26:39 <elliott> Right now.
00:26:45 <Vorpal> so you need to wget like 10 patches often
00:26:48 <pikhq> elliott: I'll give you all the money in my wallet.
00:26:51 <Vorpal> same for readline
00:26:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It's also meant to be able to take a repository URL :P
00:26:53 <elliott> pikhq: All $0 of it?!
00:26:57 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
00:27:00 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
00:27:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll ship libedit or whatever the variant of the week is over readline, most likely.
00:27:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I've used one that was totally compatible, so it's just a matter of finding which one that is.
00:27:16 <pikhq> elliott: And €0 and £0, if you insist.
00:27:17 <Vorpal> elliott, bash is rather closesly tied to readline
00:27:27 <Vorpal> iirc
00:27:29 <elliott> Vorpal: True. Well, bash can have readline :P
00:27:45 <elliott> Vorpal: How stable is bash's repository?
00:27:53 <Nitpicker> There used to be some... website, a sort of "make your own distro" site
00:27:53 <elliott> If it's stable, I'll just use that over patching it all the time.
00:28:02 <elliott> Nitpicker: I think I remember that. Wasn't it terrible?
00:28:34 <Nitpicker> I'd imagine it's the sort of thing that would be called terrible around here, but I don't think I ever formed a real opinion about it
00:28:45 * Nitpicker vaguely wanted to make a Creatures-themed distro
00:28:47 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you mean
00:28:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Bash's CVS.
00:28:57 <elliott> Vorpal: How stable is it?
00:29:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea.
00:29:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I wouldn't use it
00:29:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, some projects actually tell you to use CVS over the releases.
00:29:25 <elliott> Vorpal: e.g. pcc.
00:29:36 <Vorpal> elliott, but here is what you need to download and apply: http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/bash/bash-4.1-patches/
00:29:39 <Vorpal> :P
00:29:42 <Vorpal> just as an example
00:29:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how they're USELESSLY NAMED.
00:29:58 <elliott> BASH PATCH REPORT
00:29:58 <elliott> =================
00:30:01 <Nitpicker> Dear Chrome download manager: Fuck you in the ass
00:30:05 <Vorpal> elliott, at least you know which order to apply them :P
00:30:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how their code is so buggy that they have to patch it 9 times in one release.
00:30:11 <pikhq> elliott: And mplayer.
00:30:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
00:30:22 <elliott> Really inspires confidence.
00:30:32 <Vorpal> elliott, they tend to patch for rather minor things
00:30:42 <elliott> Incidentally, if anyone is looking to become more cynical about software, I recommend they make a distribution.
00:30:44 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact *any* bug iirc
00:30:45 <elliott> It's worked wonders fro me!
00:30:46 <elliott> *for
00:31:14 <pikhq> mplayer's most recent release was done for the sake of distros too afraid of using an SVN release.
00:31:17 <elliott> pikhq: heh
00:31:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway 3.2 had like 30+ patches
00:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, this is NOTHING
00:31:24 <Vorpal> compared to that
00:31:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Incidentally, I'll probably not bother shipping OpenSSH at all, because Dropbear has an identical feature set and is much smaller.
00:31:44 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it compare to OpenSSH-HPN?
00:31:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and I use some rather esoteric features of openssh :P
00:31:59 <pikhq> *When it came out*, they said "Unless you are at least deadly allergic to it, use latest SVN instead."
00:32:04 <elliott> "A: HPN-SSH is a patch set designed to remove a networking bottleneck in the base OpenSSH code. Removing this bottleneck can improve performance drastically."
00:32:08 <Nitpicker> elliott, what sort of package manager are you using/
00:32:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt Dropbear has the same bottleneck, unless it's the only "obvious" way to do things.
00:32:19 <elliott> Nitpicker: My own!
00:32:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, name an esoteric feature.
00:32:34 <elliott> Vorpal: (forwarding does not count as esoteric, it counts as mundane)
00:32:37 <Nitpicker> Base it on Asylum! [Don't]
00:33:05 <Vorpal> elliott, key only login with specific commands run on different pubkeys
00:33:22 <Nitpicker> <Sgeo> Smash the computer you're using right now [Don't]
00:33:34 <elliott> Vorpal: It can do the former. How do you do the latter with OpenSSH?
00:33:43 * Nitpicker has become self-aware!
00:33:47 <elliott> Nitpicker: Verily
00:33:51 <Nitpicker> And I think I've made that "joke" before
00:33:54 <Vorpal> elliott, by adding stuff to the authorized_key file
00:34:00 <elliott> Vorpal: "# Compatible with OpenSSH ~/.ssh/authorized_keys public key authentication"
00:34:11 <Vorpal> elliott, fully compatible?
00:34:18 <elliott> I think so, yes.
00:34:43 <elliott> You can use ~/.ssh/authorized_keys in the same way as with OpenSSH, just put
00:34:43 <elliott> the key entries in that file. They should be of the form:
00:34:43 <elliott> ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAABIwAAAIEAwVa6M6cGVmUcLl2cFzkxEoJd06Ub4bVDsYrWvXhvUV+ZAM9uGuewZBDoAqNKJxoIn0Hyd0Nk/yU99UVv6NWV/5YSHtnf35LKds56j7cuzoQpFIdjNwdxAN0PCET/MG8qyskG/2IE2DPNIaJ3Wy+Ws4IZEgdJgPlTYUBWWtCWOGc= someone@hostname
00:34:45 <elliott> [...]
00:34:46 <elliott> NOTE: Dropbear ignores authorized_keys options such as those described in the
00:34:46 <elliott> OpenSSH sshd manpage, and will not allow a login for these keys.
00:34:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Perhaps not.
00:34:54 <elliott> I am not sure what constitutes an "option" here.
00:34:55 <Vorpal> elliott, see. Fail :P
00:35:03 <Vorpal> elliott, those options would be the ones in question
00:35:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, yeah, compile it yourself or have a less crazy setup :P
00:35:18 <elliott> It does every other thing under the sun.
00:35:24 -!- iGO has joined.
00:35:42 <Vorpal> elliott, also what about ~/.ssh/config. I use that to type ssh home instead of ssh foo@bar.dyndns.org -p 1234567 :P
00:35:54 <elliott> Pretty sure it can do that. Anyway, shut up :)
00:36:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I prefer calling it an esoteric setup
00:36:47 <elliott> Knoppix is esoteric, use that :P
00:36:51 <Vorpal> hah
00:36:57 <Vorpal> elliott, no it is just stupid :P
00:37:02 <Vorpal> elliott, oh also ipsec. I presume you will package strongswan?
00:37:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, surely you should be GNU LOYAL? http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/lsh/
00:37:13 <Vorpal> lysator eh?
00:37:25 <elliott> "Ahh yes, where all the crazies are."
00:37:26 -!- iGO has quit (Client Quit).
00:37:34 <elliott> Vorpal: How difficult is building strongSwan? :P
00:37:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea. I used packages for it. But shoehorning it into your service daemon will be a chore
00:38:00 <elliott> "No results found for "strongswan sucks"."
00:38:01 <elliott> Promising.
00:38:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really...
00:38:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Is there ever a need to *stop* strongswan?
00:38:43 <Vorpal> elliott, there is sometimes. Mostly because you need to restart it a *lot* while configuring it
00:38:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Simple.
00:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, it takes a few hours to get everything working
00:39:02 -!- Nitpicker has changed nick to Sgeo.
00:39:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Make a service for it; the run script is just the commands to enable it, followed by "coma" or whatever I decide to call the sleep-forever command.
00:39:12 <Vorpal> elliott, and sometimes you need to stop it then, because you just cut yourself off from internet :P
00:39:12 <Sgeo> DSL is taking a weirdly long amount of time to start
00:39:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The finish script is just the commands to turn it off.
00:39:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Done
00:40:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Now was that so hard? :P
00:40:44 <Vorpal> hm
00:40:58 <Vorpal> elliott, will you package aiccu?
00:41:04 <elliott> Vorpal: (If I succumb to you and other evil people's wishes, I'll just put a huge gob of extra code in svmg so it can support start scripts that don't leave a process running around, but it will require donations.)
00:41:12 <elliott> Like chocolate.
00:41:15 <elliott> Chocolate will make me do that.
00:41:28 <elliott> Vorpal: I have a moral objection to packaging anything SixXS makes
00:41:29 <Vorpal> elliott, strongswan leave 0-2 running
00:41:34 <Vorpal> depending on configuration
00:41:41 <Vorpal> leaves*
00:41:46 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, strongswan leave 0-2 running
00:41:57 <elliott> Does killing one of them stop strongswan, by any chance?
00:42:05 <elliott> Cleanly, that is.
00:42:07 <Vorpal> elliott, um. no
00:42:11 <elliott> Aww.
00:42:13 <Vorpal> not cleanly at all
00:42:15 <elliott> Anyway.
00:42:24 <elliott> Kill as in SIGINT, btw.
00:42:26 <Vorpal> elliott, you will probably break your networking by doing that :P
00:42:36 <elliott> Vorpal: aiccu looks easy to build
00:42:38 <Vorpal> elliott, still you will likely break networking
00:42:39 <elliott> there's a Makefile right there
00:42:44 <Vorpal> elliott, aiccu is
00:43:02 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe if there's a non-sixxs fork :P
00:43:06 <Vorpal> hah
00:43:07 <elliott> It's the Oracle Policy.
00:43:14 <Vorpal> eh
00:43:18 <elliott> Or should that be Horracle?
00:43:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what about gnu smalltalk? :D
00:44:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Why would you ever want to use that :)
00:44:13 <Vorpal> elliott, to annoy you of course
00:44:17 <Vorpal> no other reason
00:44:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I have a feeling you are going to be my favourite user.
00:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, and less cheesy colours than squeak. That is always a plus
00:45:16 * Sgeo isn't quite sure what Vorpal is getting at. Sure, Squeak can look cheesy, but... GNU Smalltalk doesn't exactly have a look
00:45:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:45:20 <Sgeo> Or maybe that's the joke
00:45:21 <Vorpal> elliott, will you package oracle/sun java? Remember minecraft doesn't seem to work with openjdk
00:45:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, the sole reason being Minecraft.
00:45:35 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, I might just include it in the Minecraft package.
00:45:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that was part of the joke
00:45:44 <elliott> Vorpal: "Minecraft. (Also includes the Sun JVM)"
00:45:52 <Vorpal> elliott, but minecraft isn't open? ;P
00:46:05 <elliott> Vorpal: The exception to the openness rule is AWESOME
00:46:10 <Vorpal> hm
00:46:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I wonder if I could somehow package all of Emacs except from ERC, just for you.
00:46:26 <Vorpal> elliott, :P
00:46:35 <elliott> By "fundamentalist", I don't mean Westboro stupidness, or "destroy everyone who disagrees with me" stuff. I mean that I believe in what I see as the "fundamentals" of Christianity:
00:46:35 <elliott> [...]
00:46:38 <elliott> # The literal nature of Biblical accounts (meaning that what they say happened actually happened. Including the Creation account. Obviously stuff like Psalms and Revelation is metaphor.)
00:46:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you could but it would be quite a chore. And do you want to dig around in elisp?
00:46:48 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL.
00:47:05 <elliott> "The Bible is 100% ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE, unlike what some Christians believe. They would rather pick and choose, but I don't. (Except for those bits I don't like)"
00:47:11 <elliott> Vorpal: True, no :P
00:47:25 <Vorpal> "The Bible is 100% ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE, unlike what some Christians believe. They would rather pick and choose, but I don't. (Except for those bits I don't like)" <-- uh, this is a parody right?
00:47:28 <Vorpal> it MUST be
00:47:38 <fizzie> I've been running MineCraft exclusively with openjdk-6-jre 6b20-1.9-0ubuntu1 with no issues at all.
00:47:40 <elliott> Vorpal: It was my rephrasing of:
00:47:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh
00:47:44 <elliott> <elliott> By "fundamentalist", I don't mean Westboro stupidness, or "destroy everyone who disagrees with me" stuff. I mean that I believe in what I see as the "fundamentals" of Christianity:
00:47:45 <elliott> <elliott> [...]
00:47:45 <elliott> <elliott> # The literal nature of Biblical accounts (meaning that what they say happened actually happened. Including the Creation account. Obviously stuff like Psalms and Revelation is metaphor.)
00:47:51 <elliott> fizzie: Well, you're luckier than us.
00:47:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I get black screen with openjdk
00:48:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Wait. That was in browser.
00:48:05 <elliott> Maybe the download version works with OpenJDK?
00:48:07 <elliott> fizzie: Also, *Minecraft
00:48:12 <Sgeo> Well, isn't Psalms supposed to basically be songs written by some guy?
00:48:13 <Vorpal> elliott, no. I only tried downloaded one
00:48:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and classic
00:48:21 <Vorpal> both of them
00:48:30 <Vorpal> elliott, haven't tried alpha in browser
00:48:32 <elliott> [[Mojang Specifications' Minecraft is a game about survival and building. Presented in first person and available for the Mac and PC, it has quickly become one of those indie darling success stories. In its alpha phase of development, Minecraft has sold over 600,000 copies. It's popular, has a great community, and has generated a lot of positive buzz. The game has also inspired an iOS developer to create his own version of the title, which has si
00:48:32 <elliott> nce been pulled from the App Store.
00:48:32 <elliott> The game was called Minecrafted and it hit the App Store at $.99. The App's creator, Trevor Wilkin, claimed in the release information for the game that Minecrafted was "built from the ground up for Apple devices without code or content from the original." However, the game looked and played like Minecraft, and could even connect with legitimate Minecraft servers.]]
00:48:37 <elliott> It was pulled :P
00:48:56 <fizzie> Well, I'unno, but it works with openjdk both at work and at home.
00:49:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh
00:49:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Incidentally, I hope Mojang Specifications is never renamed.
00:49:24 <elliott> It's such a strange company name!
00:49:29 <Vorpal> elliott, true it is
00:49:35 <elliott> Specifications. They deliver SPECIFICATIONS to the customer.
00:49:38 <elliott> Of... of code.
00:49:50 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... Also "Mojang" is quite confusing too
00:49:56 <elliott> lawl
00:50:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what?
00:50:06 <Vorpal> did I miss some joke?
00:50:08 <elliott> No.
00:50:10 <elliott> Just at it being confusing.
00:50:24 <elliott> Seems like your standard arbitrary-meaningless-name to me.
00:50:25 <Vorpal> unless it is a pun on "mojäng"...
00:50:27 <Vorpal> oh duh
00:50:29 <Vorpal> it probably is
00:50:41 <elliott> What's that mean?
00:50:46 <Vorpal> elliott, "thingy"
00:50:54 <elliott> Thingy Specifications :D
00:50:55 <Vorpal> elliott, like "that thingy over there" or such
00:51:02 <elliott> They specify THINGIES in DETAIL.
00:51:05 <Vorpal> like when you don't know or don't remember the name
00:51:15 <Vorpal> or such
00:51:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yes It is a very confusing name
00:51:37 <Sgeo> Why am I getting only 129kB/s?
00:51:46 <fizzie> It does need to be started with "java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp .../Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame" for me though.
00:51:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, on what?
00:51:53 <Sgeo> A download
00:51:55 <fizzie> But that's a documented thing.
00:51:57 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, that's the settings *I* use. BEST BUDDIES.
00:52:07 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, no it isn't.
00:52:09 <elliott> exec java -Xmx2048M -Xms1024M -cp "$(dirname "$0")/launcher.jar" net.minecraft.LauncherFrame
00:52:13 <elliott> I'M MORE HARDCORE THAN YOU
00:52:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh. I can just run java -Xmx410M -jar Minecraft.jar
00:52:20 <Vorpal> (because well, my system is weak)
00:52:25 <elliott> Vorpal: It's meant to be if you have issues.
00:52:30 <elliott> So maybe that's what makes it work with Openjddjjddjdkkkk
00:52:34 <Vorpal> (1024+512 = total system memory)
00:52:54 <fizzie> Well, I haven't tried to use anything less; those numbers were from somewhere.
00:53:05 <Vorpal> and it works fine with 410 MB for max heap
00:53:18 <Vorpal> and max stack at whatever is deafault
00:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and as for what window manager the "default" set will include: no fuckin' clue :P
00:53:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you plan to include X in default!?
00:53:50 <Vorpal> elliott, or wayland?
00:53:52 <elliott> Vorpal: (The default set won't be any package or anything silly like that, just what the installer installs the first time. You're expected to be able to manage your own system after that.)
00:53:54 <elliott> Vorpal: See above line :P
00:54:01 <fizzie> (Away-asleep now, have to wake up in four hours.)
00:54:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, cya
00:54:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I expect the system to not install X by default
00:54:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, saw the minecraft pano above?
00:54:28 <elliott> Vorpal: You could always tell it to not install X. But there's no real reason not to install it.
00:55:11 <Vorpal> elliott, it shouldn't be in default install. How could you then ever hope to claim to not have any remote holes in the default setup for over 5 years ;P
00:55:15 <elliott> Ugh, I can't find my house since it's way off my spawn point :P
00:55:26 <elliott> Vorpal: You do realise the default install is just what the installer will give you if you click "Next" a lot? :P
00:55:30 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you mark with torches
00:55:36 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed!
00:55:38 <elliott> I didn't have torches at the time!
00:55:43 <Vorpal> elliott, huh
00:55:45 <elliott> Vorpal: It will probably be compartmentalised so you can untick "X etc." if you want.
00:56:02 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you build a base within viewing distance of the spawn point
00:56:36 <elliott> Vorpal: (After all, it'll be suitable for servers too.)
00:57:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yellow text: "Reference implementation!"
00:57:36 <Vorpal> XD
00:57:38 <elliott> heh
00:57:45 <elliott> compliant with Minecraft standards
00:57:53 <elliott> Vorpal: You know, maybe it'll ship with Minecraft
00:57:59 <elliott> After all, who wouldn't install it? Even on a server.
00:58:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Thing I will deliberately not package: Apache :P
00:58:40 <elliott> (httpd, that is)
01:00:59 <elliott> <Vorpal> But I need Apache, ktoaster depends on it!
01:01:22 <elliott> Vorpal: You'll be happy to hear I'm unlikely to package vim.
01:01:37 <elliott> (Well, right up until the point that a vim user packages it, which will take approximately 3 seconds.)
01:11:23 <Sgeo> On /r/netsec's sidebar:
01:11:24 <Sgeo> "/r/SocialEngineering - Free Candy"
01:12:08 <Sgeo> Dear /r/SocialEngineering: Damn yo
01:12:09 <Sgeo> you
01:12:17 <Sgeo> (They made a fake orangered)
01:14:18 <elliott> G'night; bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
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01:22:23 <Vorpal> I dislike apache too
01:30:00 <TLUL> Sgeo: Use Free Download Manager
01:30:18 * Sgeo is torrenting Linux CDs now
01:30:29 <TLUL> http://goo.gl/TKnBb
01:30:38 <TLUL> I used it to torrent most of my Linux ISOs
01:30:43 <TLUL> Which ones are you downloading?
01:30:54 <Sgeo> TLUL, why would I trust some unknown .exe?
01:31:02 <TLUL> http://goo.gl/pbjO
01:31:07 <TLUL> Link to the download site
01:31:23 <TLUL> Best DM I've ever used.
01:32:14 <TLUL> Tip: Don't use OrbitDownloader.
01:33:11 <TLUL> Which Linux ISOs are you downloading, anyway?
01:34:26 <Sgeo> Right now, just Kubuntu 10.10
01:34:31 <Sgeo> Trying to get OpenSUSE
01:35:29 <TLUL> I have every OpenSUSE ISO I could find on their website
01:35:40 <TLUL> I was bored and decided to use up some bandwidth.
01:36:02 <TLUL> Is 11.3 the latest version still?
01:36:33 <Sgeo> I think so
01:36:44 <TLUL> Yeah, looks like it.
01:37:03 <TLUL> I couldn't get it to work in VirtualBox (but I didn't try very hard) so I stuck to Ubuntu
01:52:06 -!- Hiant has joined.
01:54:09 <Hiant> Hello all. I have been pondering a language where control structure is based solely on permissions (aka run read write, ect). Does anyone know if there is an esolang like this already out there?
01:57:35 <pikhq> Seems an entirely unique concept to me.
01:57:48 <pikhq> I'm unsure how such a language could function, though.
02:00:25 <Sgeo> Dear SGU trailer coming up right before the episode:
02:00:30 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU TO HELL\
02:00:46 <Hiant> The interpreter/compiler would have a current permission (such as safe, normal, advanced, administrator) would only be able to execute commands at or below its permission level. The same goes with functions.
02:01:03 -!- p_q has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:01:35 <Hiant> pikhq: ^
02:01:41 <TLUL> interesting...
02:04:08 <Hiant> I would imagine that functions would be able to operate on atoms and other functions, and that their success in doing so is related to the inherent permissions of the function and the access level of the compiler.
02:06:14 <Hiant> This would make it very easy to reach a certain level of obtuseness; simply pepper your code with beyond-permission commands. They would look valid, but would simply be ignored by the compiler. This also makes it possible to have a single program achieve more then one affect, if the compiler is initiated with a different permission level.
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02:07:38 <Sgeo> The _compiler_'s permissions?
02:07:39 <Sgeo> Hmm
02:07:53 <Sgeo> Oh
02:08:00 <Sgeo> Not the permissions the compiler has
02:08:06 <Sgeo> The permissions set by the compiler
02:08:11 <Hiant> Correct.
02:08:29 <Hiant> The terminology is very...confusing.
02:08:51 <Hiant> A bit of a name-space collision.
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02:14:19 <Sgeo> Holy. @#$%.
02:14:27 <Sgeo> At this episode and this season
02:16:27 <Hiant> Another idea I am currently fiddling with is based on bct (bitwise cyclic tag) systems. It operates on a series of hexadecimal digits, one at a time, and executes the commands associated with each. Also, the program may only edit itself, so there are no data strings, just a changing execution string.
02:20:03 -!- zzo38 has set topic: IGNORANCE IS SLAVERY | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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02:49:16 <zzo38> Do you like this??
02:51:53 -!- Gregor has set topic: IGNORANCE OF MAGICK IS SLAVERY | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:02:42 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/hTEh
03:03:11 <Sgeo> Why is Kubuntu telling me to upgrade VirtualBox's BIOS?
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03:34:40 -!- Decarabia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:41:06 * Sgeo wants to try MeeGo
03:42:30 <Ilari> One /11 allocated to china...
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03:46:39 <Ilari> Too bad I haven't seen breakdown of allocations by RIR... Because at this point of the game, only RIPE and APNIC are relevant...
03:48:24 -!- Slereah has joined.
03:49:48 <Ilari> Well, actually, if LACNIC takes large allocations, it too could allocate relatively soon (and then the final three would be ARIN+LACNIC+APNIC).
03:51:58 <Ilari> Basically, one unexpected /10 from LACNIC could throw the current (ARIN+APNIC+RIPE) scenario, resulting X-day moving something like three weeks earlier...
03:57:22 <Sgeo> OpenSUSE actually noticed that I was running in VirtualBox, and just did the right thing
03:57:32 <Sgeo> Its Kickoff menu was decently done
03:57:50 <Sgeo> The only thing I disliked was the not-easy-for-a-newbie-to-use software installer
03:57:58 <Sgeo> It's just a package manager, not dressed up all fancy
04:01:34 * Sgeo installs Kubuntu into a VM
04:01:39 <Sgeo> Kubuntu live kind of sucks
04:02:00 <Sgeo> Browser said it had cool extensions, yet the sources weren't set up
04:02:03 <Sgeo> Among other things
04:02:12 <Sgeo> Ugly user-exposed names in Kickoff
04:03:17 <Sgeo> No easily-visible easy package manager
04:03:30 <Sgeo> That may be a function of being on LiveCD.. or a flawed memory on my part
04:06:26 <Sgeo> Ubuntu's in-install slideshow let you go forward and back. Kubuntu's doesn't
04:13:49 <zzo38> Is that a problem to you?
04:14:14 <Sgeo> Unless I can search the CD and find where it keeps a copy of the slides, yes
04:16:40 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rekonq.png Rekonq on GNOME mindboggle
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04:18:10 <TLUL> I'm about to go configure an ancient computer with a Maverick Server installation.
04:18:22 <TLUL> I may install several different display managers just to see what they're like.
04:18:43 <TLUL> I figure if I start with a server install, then I get a fair comparison of all of them since nothing is preconfigured to help one of them out.
04:19:22 <Sgeo> Well, presumably, all the Ubuntus use the same repos, so
04:19:33 <Sgeo> Some display managers may be better tweaked than others
04:19:53 <Sgeo> Actually, I may be utterly mistaken
04:22:25 <pikhq> TLUL: The preconfiguration is part of the package... Unless you intend to compile from source, you're really not going to get anything magically different from using the normal installer.
04:22:46 <TLUL> That's not entirely true.
04:23:25 <TLUL> There won't be many differences, but there will be some.
04:23:31 <pikhq> The Ubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the ubuntu-desktop meta package.
04:23:49 <pikhq> The Kubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the kubuntu-desktop meta package.
04:24:06 <pikhq> The Xubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the xubuntu-desktop meta package.
04:24:08 <pikhq> See a trend?
04:24:23 <TLUL> Yes.
04:24:27 <TLUL> A trend of being incorrect.
04:24:30 <pikhq> ...
04:24:34 <pikhq> What's incorrect about it?
04:24:36 <TLUL> incorrect package names
04:25:38 <TLUL> The funny thing is you're probably looking it up right now.
04:25:50 <TLUL> Despite the fact that you got all of the package names right.
04:25:55 <pikhq> http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/ubuntu-desktop
04:25:59 <pikhq> Now STFU.
04:26:51 <pikhq> Or http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/ubuntu-desktop if you prefer the latest one, rather than the absurdly old one that was the first result on Google.
04:27:30 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you telling me I was right?
04:28:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: 'Bout what?
04:28:24 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Well, presumably, all the Ubuntus use the same repos, so
04:28:25 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Some display managers may be better tweaked than others
04:28:45 <pikhq> Yeah, it's a single distribution with different installers.
04:29:05 <pikhq> Each installer with a distinct default installed package set.
04:29:17 <Sgeo> Is there a way to uninstall all dependencies of a package that are not dependencies of a different package?
04:29:48 <TLUL> I think so
04:29:50 <Gregor> Sgeo: That's the apt family's default behavior when you uninstall things.
04:30:00 <TLUL> ^and that's it
04:30:03 <Sgeo> Even special things like ubuntu-desktop ?
04:30:05 <Sgeo> :D
04:30:17 <TLUL> Lol
04:30:21 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
04:30:34 <Gregor> Sgeo: Technically it depends on how it's installed, but probably.
04:30:56 <pikhq> Yeah, that's APT's default behavior. Anything that's not a dependency of something installed and was auto-installed (pulled in as a dependency of something else) gets uninstalled when unneeded.
04:33:43 <Sgeo> Wow, this thing's autorun.sh really wants gksu
04:34:00 <Sgeo> Could probably skip it
04:34:05 <Sgeo> Sillily installing gksu instead
04:34:52 * Sgeo removes gksu
04:48:14 <zzo38> What is gksu?
04:50:16 <Sgeo> Probably some graphical sudo program
04:50:18 <Sgeo> For GNOME
04:50:34 <Sgeo> Or at least, it seemed to be pulling in GNOMEish packages
04:56:30 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL.
04:57:17 * Sgeo decides adding 3d accel to his Kubuntu machine would be a good idea
04:59:25 <Sgeo> Dear Kubuntu: Please try to make some sort of effort to remember my resolution settings
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05:04:50 <Sgeo_> Dear God Quassel's default pane sizes are terrible
05:11:36 <Sgeo> Kopete doesn't have Facebook support
05:11:54 <Sgeo> It seems to still be doable though
05:16:55 <Gregor> Sgeo: Don't use kopete.
05:16:58 <Gregor> Sgeo: It is so, so bad.
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05:17:24 <Sgeo> I have MeeGo downloaded, going to try MeeGo
05:18:24 <zzo38> How I think a package-manager could work is there is one root package (there is a standard system location for it, or it can be set by command-line arguments or environment variables). The root package contains some configuration data and depends on "local-installed-software" and "local-system-installed-software".
05:19:17 <zzo38> "local-installed-software" depends on any programs you have installed. To uninstall, you tell the package manager to edit "local-installed-software" to remove the dependency, and it will decide to uninstall or not. If you tell it force uninstall, it uninstall regardless of anything.
05:19:30 <zzo38> Does it sensible to you?
05:19:56 <Sgeo> MeeGo complained about the CPU vendor
05:20:10 <Sgeo> It really, really, wants to only be useful on a select few devices, doesn't it?
05:20:36 <zzo38> What is MeeGo and what is the CPU vendor?
05:21:14 <Sgeo> MeeGo is a .. OS thingy
05:22:11 <zzo38> There is something wrong with the MOTD, I think the underlining is incorrect
05:29:54 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of purple smoke*).
05:30:41 <zzo38> No! It is the wrong smoke!!
05:41:52 <Gregor> Is it just me, or have xkcd's recent "five minute comics" been substantially better than most of the other xkcd comics.
05:45:13 * Sgeo goes to try Jolicloud
05:46:49 <Sgeo> o.O
05:46:57 <Sgeo> How much does Jolicloud put IN the cloud?
05:46:59 <Sgeo> It's creepy
05:47:15 <Sgeo> My favorite apps? Twitter and Facebook streams?
05:47:21 <Sgeo> All stored on Jolicloud servers?
05:47:35 * Sgeo throws up a little
05:49:55 <Sgeo> Looking at the website thing I'm logged into
05:50:04 <Sgeo> It looks VERY MUCH like a user interface for a computer
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06:02:07 * Sgeo has discovered the magic of BitTorrent
06:04:17 <zzo38> BitTorrent is meant for sharing large files (such as video files; although some Linux distributions are also shared on BitTorrent), but you can share other files too
06:09:25 <Sgeo> Yep
06:09:32 <Sgeo> You have to sign in to Jolicloud to use it
06:10:04 <Sgeo> It's a fricken full screen web browser
06:10:52 <Sgeo> "Do you want Chromium to save your password?"
06:11:02 <Sgeo> As I sign in to an Operating System's user interface
06:11:04 <Sgeo> This is absurd
06:13:04 <Sgeo> Still
06:13:07 <Sgeo> It's interesting
06:13:20 <Sgeo> A bit silly to have to open a Chromium for web browsing when the while thing is Chromium
06:13:57 <Sgeo> Programs should not be unmaximizable (they are)
06:16:42 <Sgeo> About to try Lubuntu
06:20:22 <Sgeo> Ok, I get that it's meant to be fast, not sexy
06:20:33 <Sgeo> But where's the nice convenient easy-for-newbies package manager?
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06:23:27 <Sgeo> Lubuntu Netbook people haven't heard of that F guy's law
06:24:02 <zzo38> What F guy's law?
06:24:52 <pikhq> Gregor: Not just you.
06:25:07 <pikhq> Gregor: I remind you that the early xkcd's were notebook doodles.
06:25:19 <Sgeo> The one about things at the edge of the screen being infinite legnth/width as applicable and thus easier
06:26:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: Fitts's Law.
06:28:02 <Sgeo> Grr
06:28:10 <Sgeo> Does VirtualBox really not have a screenshot feature?
06:28:58 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what happened to SymphonyOS
06:30:55 * Sgeo waits for Chrome to get ot of its frozen rut
06:35:26 <Sgeo> http://www.symphonyos.com/ This Strata stuff sounds very Jolicloud-like
06:35:42 <Sgeo> Maybe at least they'll put some effort into hiding the webiness of the UI
06:39:17 <zzo38> I do not find such things useful; I can run programs locally. (SSH could be used if you needed to run programs on another computer; you could also copy a file and so on, using the other files, and so on... if you have shared accounts (like Free Geek) you can SSH and the files will still be there to copy to another directory)
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06:51:25 * Sgeo goes to try Haiku
07:02:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:03:59 <Sgeo> My keys went weird
07:04:03 <Sgeo> IN THE HOST SYSTEM
07:04:33 <Sgeo> Anyways, my opinion of Haiku went from "It's alpha." to "It manages to be so buggy, it breaks the host OS when emulated!"
07:05:05 <Sgeo> (Note: I'm sure there's a more reasonable explanation for what I just went through)
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07:11:12 <Sgeo> http://www.geteasypeasy.com/
07:11:27 <Sgeo> That screenshot looks a LOT like an old Ubuntu Netbook Remix screenshot
07:11:44 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to stay away
07:16:54 <Sgeo> "Around May 2008 all members of the Good OS team ceased to post in any blog, twitter, or any other web medium, including their own forum and website. While the website is still on-line, and gOS 3.1 can be downloaded, no sign of the developers has been heard of since then. Additionally there are no sources of gOS available. Development of gOS seems to have been stalled, and the official forum (http://forum.thinkgos.com/ ) was not moderated any
07:16:54 <Sgeo> more, was quickly overrun by Spam and was closed halfway through 2009 (one of the few life-signs of the GoodOS team after mid 2008)"
07:17:13 <Sgeo> That is one of the creepiest things I have read (wrt all this OS stuff)
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07:41:04 <Sgeo> </monologue>
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07:52:19 <coppro> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/15/3
07:52:31 <coppro> yes, I know it was slashdot, but still... rofffffl
07:56:23 <fizzie> Interesting facts from the comments: "Any PC built after 1985 has the storage capacity to house an evil spirit."
07:56:30 <fizzie> Makes one wonder how many bytes an evil spirit takes.
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08:15:28 <Ilari> Probably means few megs (since first PC hard drivers were 10MB).
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08:19:14 <fizzie> IBM AT, introduced in August 1984, came with a 20 MB (30 MB in the later 1986 model) disk... but of course "any PC built after 1985" means I should look at when they stopped manufacturing different models.
08:27:35 <Ilari> Heh... ClF3 and Hydrazine would probably be quite a combo (well, at least it would burn, as ClF3 is hypergolic with darn near everything...) :-)
08:28:14 <Ilari> Especially if it is organic...
09:05:11 <Vorpal> fog and -8 C outside during the night → awesome looking "frost spikes" on tree twigs
09:05:21 <Vorpal> I mean, the have to be over 3 cm in length
09:05:26 <Vorpal> will upload some photos soon
09:07:49 <fizzie> Heh, the unofficial university temperature graph for the last week looks a bit... unlikely: http://outside.hut.fi/10_days.png
09:08:23 <Vorpal> huh. why did that link open in gimp...
09:08:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it does. Presumably something was broken there
09:09:28 <fizzie> Anyhoo, -2 here now.
09:10:14 <Vorpal> not sure about current temp
09:10:39 <Vorpal> I got the -8 from the max/min thermometer about an hour ago
09:10:59 <fizzie> Here it didn't go below that -2 during last night, I think.
09:14:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, here (progressive jpeg): http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/winter2010/ice_1939.jpg
09:16:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, like it?
09:16:29 <fizzie> Funky. It looks a bit like that tree I phone-snapped last winter and probably mentioned here too -- http://zem.fi/~fis/frozen.jpg -- except more furry-spiky.
09:17:27 <Vorpal> heh
09:17:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, also your looks a bit more "undefined" in the details?
09:18:02 <Vorpal> even in the stuff that is in focus I mean
09:18:10 <fizzie> Yes, I think the tree picture has had a bit of melting-refreezing going on.
09:18:13 <Vorpal> ah
09:18:48 <fizzie> IIRC it was more interesting-looking in the morning when I went past it, but didn't think of photographing it until later in the afternoon when coming back the same way.
09:19:05 <Vorpal> ah
09:19:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know when the US goes non-DST?
09:20:54 <fizzie> I think they went a few days ago.
09:21:06 <Vorpal> ah
09:21:10 <Vorpal> that explains things
09:21:10 <fizzie> There was a lot of talk about latest iPhone OS alarm clock failing to account for that.
09:21:17 <Vorpal> hah
09:22:16 <fizzie> http://support.apple.com/kb/TS3542
09:22:44 <Vorpal> heh
09:24:56 <fizzie> They switch on first Sunday in November, so for this year it was the latest possible (Nov 7th) since November started on a Monday.
09:27:50 <cheater99> Vorpal: how is it -8C with fog outside?
09:27:58 <cheater99> the fog would have condensed
09:28:17 <cheater99> maybe it was just snow?
09:29:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, forgot if you saw that minecraft pano I made
09:34:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I saw it; it was what made me think of Blenderizing a minecraft map. (Not that I'll probably bother; I didn't exactly finish the Descent thing either.)
09:34:29 <Vorpal> ah right
09:35:04 <Vorpal> there, now it looks somewhat less weird (added a few extra vertical lines)
09:36:23 * Vorpal stitches
09:43:13 <cheater99> hmmm... i want a new descent game :<
09:43:18 <cheater99> that works with 3d glasses!
09:44:46 <fizzie> The old games worked with all kinds of serial-port linked virtual helmets.
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09:45:16 <cheater99> yeah, i know
09:45:20 <cheater99> i even have one
09:45:30 <cheater99> the vfx-1
09:45:37 <fizzie> Ooh. Is it immersive and futuristic and all other cool things?
09:45:50 <cheater99> yes
09:46:02 <cheater99> thing is
09:46:13 <cheater99> the important bits are not outdated
09:46:17 <cheater99> but the displays are
09:46:23 <cheater99> i could hack two iphone displays together i bet!
09:47:03 <fizzie> I remember one with a warning label saying you're not supposed to use it while you're downhill skiing. That seemed an oddly precise warning.
09:51:27 <cheater99> wtf?
09:51:43 <cheater99> haha, i've never seen that.
09:52:59 <cheater99> i have really liked the descent-ish levels in crysis
09:53:35 <Vorpal> heh
09:53:50 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Ooh. Is it immersive and futuristic and all other cool things? <-- are you asking me? And if so: about what?
09:54:00 <fizzie> No, it was about the virtual helmet there.
09:54:04 <Vorpal> ah
09:55:04 <cheater99> how cute - pretending to have me on ignore, and putting up a nice show of it
09:57:26 <fizzie> On the same sort of topic: I have this stand-alone GPS unit with a few silly games (maze, nibbles, that sort of thing) that you play by phyiscally moving around; you can set the size of the playing field and so on. The manual says "[!] WARNING: Do not attempt to play these games while driving a motor vehicle or in an area of heavy traffic."
10:03:32 <cheater99> you COULD play it by driving a car around a desert or something
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11:28:20 <cheater99> http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2369/bgc.png
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11:35:05 <Ilari> Haha: This site only partially works with IPv6-only client. Guess what doesn't work? :-)
11:43:04 <Ilari> (Hint: It is a part you would least expect to fail with IPv6).
11:46:21 <Vorpal> Ilari, which site?
11:46:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, awesome
11:49:31 <cheater99> Ilari: css?
11:49:56 <cheater99> site links?
11:56:14 <Ilari> "IPv6 ready" logo. :-)
11:58:19 <cheater99> lol
12:06:31 <Vorpal> Ilari, :D
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14:19:23 -!- elliott has set topic: tailgating on the whims of the vestibular? WE GOT IT | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:19:51 <elliott> 19:57:50 <Sgeo> The only thing I disliked was the not-easy-for-a-newbie-to-use software installer
14:20:01 <elliott> Did *you* have problems?
14:20:17 <elliott> 20:06:26 <Sgeo> Ubuntu's in-install slideshow let you go forward and back. Kubuntu's doesn't
14:20:22 <elliott> Please read this very slowly and then shoot yourself.
14:20:52 <elliott> 20:22:25 <pikhq> TLUL: The preconfiguration is part of the package... Unless you intend to compile from source, you're really not going to get anything magically different from using the normal installer.
14:20:52 <elliott> 20:22:46 <TLUL> That's not entirely true.
14:20:52 <elliott> 20:23:25 <TLUL> There won't be many differences, but there will be some.
14:20:55 <elliott> TLUL: You are wrong.
14:21:19 <elliott> 20:24:34 <pikhq> What's incorrect about it?
14:21:20 <elliott> 20:24:36 <TLUL> incorrect package names
14:21:20 <elliott> 20:25:38 <TLUL> The funny thing is you're probably looking it up right now.
14:21:20 <elliott> 20:25:50 <TLUL> Despite the fact that you got all of the package names right.
14:21:23 <elliott> Oh, fuck off.
14:22:17 <elliott> 21:41:52 <Gregor> Is it just me, or have xkcd's recent "five minute comics" been substantially better than most of the other xkcd comics.
14:22:19 <elliott> Gregor: Insanely so.
14:23:00 <elliott> Gregor: (I mean, okay, they're obviously five-minute comics, but they're still 10x better than anything since... comic 400.)
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14:32:50 <CAHb14> !!! ??!!)))
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14:35:35 -!- CAHb14 has joined.
14:37:24 <elliott> CAHb14: iojeioaeoaje
14:37:30 <CAHb14> Hello! )
14:39:05 <elliott> CAHb14: hi
14:39:41 <CAHb14> 8-)
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14:42:02 <cheater99> great
14:42:07 <cheater99> a ruski markovbot
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14:56:58 <elliott> hi ais523
15:00:12 <elliott> The purpose of readproctitle here is to give us some access to any error messages that may be generated by a running svscan process. The 400 dots that appear as the last argument to the command provide readproctitle with an in-memory buffer it uses to display whatever it reads from its standard input. It is then possible to view this display with a process status listing using the ps(1) command:
15:00:12 <elliott> # ps -axww | grep readproctitle
15:00:12 <elliott> [XXX sample output here]
15:00:14 <elliott> WJW.
15:01:44 <elliott> "The problem arises because, for security reasons, FreeBSD no longer mounts procfs, the process file system, by default." wat
15:09:34 <ais523> wow, today's TheDailyETF is actually /good/
15:09:49 <ais523> *TheDailyWTF
15:10:14 <ais523> also, I've seen people do things like $^E=' 'x1000; before to allocate memory in Perl
15:10:18 <ais523> I suspect it's a similar principle
15:11:03 <elliott> ais523: no, it's because it shows up in ps
15:11:10 <elliott> ais523: and obviously you can't realloc argv[n]
15:11:23 <elliott> so it passes 400 dots so that readproctitle can change that argument's value to show up in ps...
15:11:26 <ais523> elliott: well, it is much the same principle there
15:11:30 <elliott> ais523: and this is how all errors are shown, scrolling right to left on that
15:11:34 <elliott> ais523: worst logging system ever?
15:11:44 <ais523> elliott: no, that's /ingenious/
15:11:47 <ais523> crazy, but ingenious
15:12:06 <elliott> ais523: yes, but: the package also comes with a *normal* logging system that it takes about 5 lines of code to replace that thing with
15:12:19 <elliott> so i have no idea what /that's/ doing there :D
15:13:24 <ais523> hmm, apparently oerjan's email no longer works
15:13:40 <ais523> cpressey sent an email to me and him, and the mail to him bounced
15:13:41 <elliott> ais523: same reason his IRC doesn't
15:13:46 <elliott> ais523: his shell account is gone
15:13:48 <ais523> that would make sense
15:13:58 <elliott> ais523: Hey, cpressey and oerjan, two people we're missing!
15:14:01 <elliott> Well, at least I am.
15:14:41 <ais523> cpressey's active on the wiki
15:14:50 <ais523> in fact, he just deleted something, which surprised me because I didn't realise he was an admin
15:15:02 <elliott> ais523: I think he became an admin, like, right after he registered.
15:15:14 <elliott> ais523: pretty sure he's stopped coming to IRC because he said it was eating up all his time :)
15:15:20 <elliott> (also 'cuz i'm irritating probably)
15:15:41 <elliott> You may be anal-retentive, but apparently not anal-retentive enough to keep the email address on your home page up to date! What manner of perfidious chicanery is this perfidious chicanery? Please email me your working email address, if you have one. Thank you kindly. Sincerely, the guy who emailed Ørjan only to receive a 554 User Account has Expired response from nvg.ntnu.no, November somethingth, 2010
15:15:42 <elliott> Sorry, I honestly cannot manage to handle this right now. --Ørjan 04:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
15:15:42 <elliott> :( --Chris Pressey 04:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
15:15:48 <elliott> looks like oerjan's burned out
15:16:25 <ais523> indeed, that's fair enough
15:16:26 <elliott> ais523: FWIW, I'd got to the point of emailing the networking club at his university (where his account was) asking if he was okay before I realised he'd been commenting on the "Gödel's Lost Letter and P=NP" blog the whole time
15:16:29 <elliott> and that was a while ago
15:16:33 * elliott resumes mild worrying
15:16:48 <ais523> I'm just glad to know he's OK; if he wants to abandon the community, that's his right
15:17:10 <elliott> ais523: oh, absolutely, it just doesn't fit with any model of oerjan I have in my head
15:17:22 <ais523> if something bad happened to me, this channel would probably be the first place to notice
15:17:53 <elliott> I'm still mildly surprised that people noticed /I/ was gone, but then I do account for something like 50% of the entire channel's traffic.
15:18:32 <elliott> ais523: *more importantly,* losing cpressey and oerjan in a short space of time has dramatically cut our levels of interesting conversation :)
15:19:10 <elliott> [edit] thumb mature
15:19:10 <elliott> This article is a great help to me! Thank you!
15:19:13 <elliott> spammers are very thumb mature
15:19:37 <ais523> elliott: I'm pretty sure cpressey and I were racing each other to revert that
15:20:14 <elliott> ais523: it could have been a perfectly valid contribution!
15:20:19 <elliott> I'm very thumb mature myself.
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15:20:42 -!- elliott has set topic: the secret order of the thumb mature, dedicated to all topics related to esoteric computing | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:27:41 <Sgeo> elliott, if installed Kubuntu works far better than live Kubuntu, might real installed Kubuntu be far better than emulated Kubuntu? >:D
15:28:02 <elliott> Sgeo: You shall not use Kubuntu and I'll say no more!
15:28:54 <elliott> Sgeo: The *wolves* will get you. And seriously, fuck KDE.
15:29:59 <Sgeo> The desktop plasmoid thing is a bit weird, and C++ must die, but what else is so bad about KDE?
15:30:33 <elliott> Everything.
15:32:12 <Sgeo> What would you say if I started looking for a way to make GNOME look like KDE?
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15:32:27 <Gregor> Sgeo: I would say "Stop remaking XFCE"
15:32:37 <elliott> Gregor: ...'cuz Xfce looks so much like KDE? :P
15:32:48 <elliott> Sgeo: I'd probably just punch you and put you on ignore again for my sanity.
15:32:51 <Gregor> elliott: A hell of a lot more than GNOME does.
15:33:00 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, 'cuz... it ships with one panel?
15:33:04 <elliott> Gregor: It does not look like KDE :P
15:33:35 * Sgeo still hasn't tried Sabayon Linux
15:33:40 <Gregor> elliott: XFCE's and KDE's default layouts share: The fact that they're both abstractions of Windows 95.
15:33:54 <elliott> Gregor: GNOME is also Windows 95, except they split the taskbar into two :P
15:34:30 <elliott> Gregor: Also, KDE4's default layout is about as far removed from Windows 95 as you can get while still being vaguely like that.
15:34:33 <elliott> At least on the desktop.
15:34:51 <Sgeo> Which distros tend to support KDE better than they support GNOME?
15:34:56 * Sgeo would guess OpenSUSE
15:35:08 <elliott> Sgeo: "Sabayon Linux relies on two package managers. Portage is inherited from Gentoo, while Entropy was developed for Sabayon. Portage downloads source-code and compiles it specifically for the target system, whereas Entropy manages binary files from servers. The binary tarball packages are precompiled using the Gentoo Linux unstable tree."
15:35:12 <elliott> Also, LFS.
15:35:15 <elliott> It's the best distro ever!
15:35:18 <elliott> Use it or Ubuntu. Also shut up.
15:35:25 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, that's because it's followed in Windows 7's footsteps. But since 7 < 95, presumably 95 is the newer and more advanced Windows to follow.
15:35:38 <elliott> Gregor: ...verily
15:37:21 <elliott> Gregor: It just occurred to me that, like people who think they're hardware savvy because they plugged a computer together, there must be hordes of Linux From Scratch users thinking they did something special, advanced, difficult, and unsupported, rather than just typing ./configure, make, and make install a lot. :(
15:37:39 <Sgeo> OOOH
15:37:49 <Sgeo> The panels have optional hide buttons
15:37:51 <Sgeo> <3
15:38:06 <elliott> Sgeo: I hate you to death.
15:38:18 <Sgeo> I can finally use Chromium properly!
15:38:45 <elliott> In fact, I'm going to frame those last two lines on my wall, and then animate a short cartoon where you repeatedly hide and unhide the panels just because you can, and then I will send the napalm.
15:38:47 <elliott> And you will burn to death.
15:39:06 <Sgeo> Actually
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15:41:40 <Sgeo> Hmm
15:42:50 * Sgeo decides he hates the autohide stuff
15:43:01 <Sgeo> I still want Fitt's Law to help out with Chromium tabs
15:44:00 <elliott> *Fitts'
15:46:07 <Gregor> elliott: Idonno, I think it would be difficult to go through all of LFS without accidentally gaining a LITTLE bit of savvy.
15:46:35 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah...but...it's not magic :P
15:46:53 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, you have to compile the kernel, and you have to... compile gcc and glibc, I guess.
15:46:58 <elliott> Gregor: The rest is pretty plain-sailing.
15:47:06 <Sgeo> ....why does GNOME think my battery is charging?
15:47:34 <elliott> I don't know,
15:47:50 <Sgeo> I'm at school and did not bring my charger
15:47:58 <Sgeo> My laptop is connected to nothing
15:48:09 <elliott> 22:28:10 <Sgeo> Does VirtualBox really not have a screenshot feature?
15:48:16 <elliott> apparently Sgeo has never taken a screenshot in Windows before
15:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ALL OF YOU AMERICANS
15:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> IT'S SO ANNOYING
15:49:04 <elliott> 23:16:54 <Sgeo> "Around May 2008 all members of the Good OS team ceased to post in any blog, twitter, or any other web medium, including their own forum and website. While the website is still on-line, and gOS 3.1 can be downloaded, no sign of the developers has been heard of since then. Additionally there are no sources of gOS available. Development of gOS seems to have been stalled, and the official forum (http://forum.thinkgos.com/ ) was not m
15:49:04 <elliott> oderated any
15:49:04 <elliott> 23:16:54 <Sgeo> more, was quickly overrun by Spam and was closed halfway through 2009 (one of the few life-signs of the GoodOS team after mid 2008)"
15:49:04 <elliott> 23:17:13 <Sgeo> That is one of the creepiest things I have read (wrt all this OS stuff)
15:49:13 <elliott> They all got raped by Mark Shuttleworth's invisible hand of the free market.
15:55:01 <elliott> i would love to see Sgeo using @
15:56:49 <elliott> Gregor: hav u got ur packed lunch
15:57:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, did mummy drive you there?
15:57:22 <elliott> ;__;
15:57:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Tripped on a KITTEN.
15:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Which then said "mew".
15:58:10 <Gregor> ... needs ... a plaster?
15:58:36 <Phantom_Hoover> A plaster?
15:58:45 <Phantom_Hoover> One of those sticky things you put on cuts?
15:58:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:59:11 <Gregor> Hahaha you people and your foreign dialects.
15:59:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
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15:59:52 <Sgeo_> So, Ubuntu has issues with the wifi IN THIS ROOM
15:59:56 <Sgeo_> :psyduck:
16:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, would you like to use @?
16:01:08 <Sgeo_> I'd like to try it
16:01:18 <Sgeo_> Don't feel like installing it on a real system though
16:02:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't exist yet, so there may be problems...
16:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> But! It lacks WINDOWS. And FILES. And APPLICATIONS AS WE KNOW THEM.
16:03:14 <elliott> And KITTENS
16:03:27 <elliott> I don't think Sgeo_ realises that @ is not Kitten.
16:03:32 <Sgeo_> That sounds awesome. As long as Ubuntu or some other major distro doesn't pull a GNOME and abruptly force it on everyone
16:03:52 <elliott> . . .
16:04:03 <elliott> Sgeo_: You... do realise it isn't based on Linux in the slightest?
16:04:27 * Sgeo_ couldn't think of a better analogy for the GNOME mess
16:04:36 <Sgeo_> Also, should have realized it
16:05:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, it's the Lisp OS successor.
16:05:10 <Sgeo_> How about this: As long as Microsoft doesn't take it, rebrand it as Windows 8, and declare Windows 7 end-of-life
16:05:51 * Phantom_Hoover 's mind breaks
16:06:30 -!- augur has joined.
16:06:58 <Phantom_Hoover> WINDOWS. SODDING. EIGHT.
16:07:13 <Phantom_Hoover> WHAT
16:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, when did you go completely incoherent?
16:09:00 <Sgeo_> I was trying to hold on to my precious crappy analogy with GNOME Shell
16:09:10 <Phantom_Hoover> what
16:09:50 <Sgeo_> With GNOME Shell taking what might be a cool concept and forcing it on everyone
16:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Microsoft using @ is so utterly laughable words cannot express it.
16:10:47 <elliott> Sgeo_: I hate you I hate you I hate you
16:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Literally _every piece of software ever previously made in any language_ wouldn't work.
16:11:05 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, do you think I seriously thought that would happen?
16:11:12 <elliott> Also I like the idea of Microsoft adopting it when there's basically no way to do closed-source software at all.
16:11:13 <Sgeo_> Also, GNOME Shell breaks GNOME panels, doesn't it?
16:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know WHAT you thought.
16:11:29 <elliott> Sgeo_: Did I mention it doesn't have Chrome?
16:11:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Or Factor.
16:11:42 <Sgeo_> I assume that a web browser will be written for it
16:11:55 <elliott> Sgeo_: Probably not one with an especially fast JS engine.
16:11:55 <Sgeo_> And an environment like it could actually get me to like a Lisp
16:12:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it could have one.
16:12:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but I can't be arsed to write one.
16:12:20 <Phantom_Hoover> JS → @ → raw x86 code.
16:12:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And I don't particularly care whether it works with Gmail or anything.
16:12:39 <elliott> Sgeo_: Did I mention no Smalltalk?
16:12:57 <Sgeo_> Did I mention that I won't be installing it as my main OS?
16:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure, but that would be the obvious way to implement a lot of languages.
16:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing it on JS would probably be good practice or something.
16:13:41 <elliott> Sgeo_: Also, it will automatically remove every other OS..
16:13:43 <elliott> *OS.
16:13:56 <elliott> In fact I'm planning to distribute it by a web page that automatically installs it.
16:14:07 <Sgeo_> And it will also use exploits in various hypervisors to take over host systems!
16:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I thought it would have to play nicely with partitions?
16:14:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
16:14:45 <elliott> Sgeo_: There are more than a few...
16:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, you wouldn't need any other OSes anyway.
16:15:13 * Sgeo_ wonders if there's any malware in the wild that takes advantage of exploits
16:15:23 <Sgeo_> Erm, hypervisor exploits
16:15:47 <Sgeo_> (Please tell me that I'm using "hypervisor" correctly
16:15:48 <coppro> probably
16:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, you wouldn't be able to run AW on @.
16:18:42 <Sgeo_> I'm going to assume that elliott isn't malicious enough to exploit hypervisor exploits
16:20:37 <elliott> Sgeo_ would give up when he realises it doesn't have a single 3D effect.
16:20:42 <ais523> Sgeo_: you'd likely need to have root privs on the emulated system to be able to exploit a hypervisor exploit
16:20:58 <elliott> Also, it's not a hypervisor, Sgeo_.
16:21:04 <elliott> Hypervisors are things like Xen.
16:23:31 <elliott> Sgeo_ has had a 3D seizure.
16:25:25 <Sgeo_> I once played with 3DNA
16:25:34 <Sgeo_> It needs multiuser
16:26:01 <Sgeo_> After you Google it, you'll kill me
16:26:09 -!- Meryle has joined.
16:26:09 -!- Meryle has left (?).
16:26:09 <elliott> Sgeo_: Not a *single* 3D effect in @. Ever.
16:26:14 <elliott> yawn, more spam
16:26:57 <Sgeo_> Back in my day, spam was spam and trolling was trolling, never the two shall meat
16:26:59 <Sgeo_> meet
16:27:11 <elliott> *never the twain shall meet, you illiterate bum.
16:27:21 <elliott> Sgeo_: Not a SINGLE 3D effect.
16:28:03 <Sgeo_> Will it have any semblance of a GUI at all?
16:28:21 <elliott> Sgeo_: Well, it'll use your display hardware to draw things.
16:28:23 <elliott> But there's no icons.
16:28:25 <elliott> Mostly text.
16:28:57 <Sgeo_> "mostly"?
16:29:16 <elliott> Sgeo_: Well, there are lines to divide panes.
16:31:31 <elliott> Sgeo_ has had a 4D seizure.
16:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> 4D interface!
16:32:07 <elliott> Sgeo_ just can't handle the lines, can you Sgeo_?
16:32:09 <elliott> Lines are too much for any mortal.
16:32:11 <elliott> :P
16:32:14 <elliott> I can't handle the lines!
16:32:28 * Sgeo_ is in class
16:33:04 <elliott> Class prevents lines.
16:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you behave badly.
16:34:45 -!- elliott has left (?).
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16:56:13 <Sgeo_> "Id long felt that combining a powerful static type system with functional coding would be almost ideal. "
16:56:32 <Sgeo_> Some person talking about Scala
16:56:39 <coppro> hahahahaha
16:57:41 <coppro> neither powerful nor static are words I'd use to describe Java's type system
16:59:40 <Sgeo_> "But guess what? In Scala, you cant tell from looking at a method call if its going to store the closure or not. You might not even be able to tell from the ScalaDoc. Youll probably end up going to the method and rooting around in the source code. If you can find it. Once again, the information that you need to know is scattered about."
16:59:42 <Sgeo_> Uhh
16:59:49 <Sgeo_> That's what documentation is FOR, isn't it?
17:00:01 <coppro> rofffl
17:01:40 <elliott> <coppro> neither powerful nor static are words I'd use to describe Java's type system
17:01:42 <elliott> Scala has its own
17:01:49 <elliott> Most of Java's typing is at compile-time :P
17:02:34 <coppro> allegedly
17:03:10 <coppro> in my opinion, it isn't fun until ((.)(.)) is a valid expression
17:03:23 <elliott> Ah yes, the boobies operator.
17:06:01 <Sgeo_> My professor was just showing us an index of programming languages in use in industry
17:06:06 <Sgeo_> Haskell was above Scala
17:07:24 <elliott> Wait, TIOBE?
17:07:27 <elliott> lollll
17:08:20 <coppro> Sgeo_: because Haskell is a good language
17:09:42 * Phantom_Hoover gets Minecraft.
17:11:45 <yorick> NOT MINECRAFT
17:11:45 <yorick> ARGH
17:12:08 <yorick> MINECRAFT IS THE NEW WOW
17:13:36 <elliott> yorick: Yes, but with Minecraft you don't have to socialise.
17:15:21 <ais523> Java is definitely statically typed
17:15:33 <fizzie> elliott: But what about all the block types you can only get in 64-dude raids!
17:15:33 <ais523> it's not a very /good/ type system, but it's definitely a static one
17:16:44 <elliott> fizzie: heh, 64-dude
17:17:32 <fizzie> It's the gender-neutral dude.
17:17:51 <fizzie> (Though I've seen "dudette" used too.)
17:19:04 <elliott> fizzie: I was just commenting on the power-of-twoness.
17:20:01 <fizzie> Well, I just assumed, since most things stack to piles of 64, so.
17:20:29 <elliott> Right.
17:21:11 <Vorpal> yorick, minecraft is awesome. :P
17:21:32 <yorick> Vorpal: it doesn't even work
17:21:49 <Vorpal> yorick, try sun-jvm rather than openjdk if you get a black screen
17:22:04 <yorick> Vorpal: how am I supposed to change that
17:22:13 <Vorpal> yorick, depends on your linux distro
17:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I decided that the fort will have 8 towers: the corners and middle of the sides. And they will be high and be in brick.
17:22:43 <Vorpal> which means finding a lot of clay
17:22:54 <elliott> Vorpal: lawl
17:23:10 <elliott> <yorick> Vorpal: how am I supposed to change that
17:23:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm going for Gregor style in colours :P
17:23:13 <elliott> sounds like a windows user
17:23:14 <elliott> (or os x?)
17:23:23 <yorick> Vorpal: ubuntu 10.04
17:23:54 <Vorpal> yorick, hm. Lets see. You enable the partner repo in the package repo selection thingy
17:24:02 <Vorpal> then update the package list
17:24:08 <Vorpal> and then select sun-jvm and such
17:24:32 <elliott> I doubt yorick has bought the game.
17:24:41 <elliott> Meaning that alas, poor yorick, it won't work unless you buy it.
17:24:58 <Vorpal> well, enable sun plugin for the classic one in the browser
17:25:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:25:09 <Vorpal> it is a separate package
17:25:11 <yorick> elliott: shh...I'm decompiling and 'fixing' it
17:25:15 <Vorpal> I think
17:25:15 <elliott> yorick: lolfail
17:25:17 <elliott> yorick: It won't work.
17:25:37 <Vorpal> yorick, it logs in then downloads the full game.
17:25:38 <Vorpal> so uh
17:25:41 <Vorpal> yeah that won't work
17:25:44 <elliott> yorick: Unless you hAX0R the server to give you it. Which would require fooling it into thinking you have paid, so GOOD LUCK MR. 1337
17:25:44 <yorick> Vorpal: shh...
17:25:52 <elliott> "Shh! My powers defy LOGIC!"
17:25:56 <Vorpal> yorick, you could pirate it of course. If that is your thing
17:25:57 <yorick> yes that
17:25:58 <elliott> You're a moron.
17:26:07 <yorick> (my powers defy logic thing)
17:27:11 <ais523> um, will someone summarise or do I have to read scrollback?
17:27:14 <fizzie> Incidentally, what's a bit strange is: my single-player "World 1" shows "0.0 MB" as the size, has been like that ever since I first visited the Nether.
17:27:45 <ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot, and anything less would be 0.0 MB when rounded
17:27:54 <yorick> ais523: minecraft sucks
17:28:09 <fizzie> ais523: The rest of the worlds are about 2 to 7 MB.
17:28:23 * yorick off to dinner!
17:28:37 <fizzie> (And World 1 was also at least >5 before I did that first Nether visit.)
17:29:11 <ais523> minecraft's beginning to irritate me to the extent that Inception does
17:29:14 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot
17:29:24 <HackEgo> 260|<ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot
17:29:30 <ais523> in that it seems to completely clog up unrelated channels
17:29:38 <elliott> ais523: tl;dr summary: yorick (1) complains about Minecraft, (2) says "YEAH WELL IT DOESN'T EVEN WORK ANYWAY", (3) is told how to install the right JVM, (4) says that he's decompiling the game to get it to work after being told he'd need to buy it for it to work, despite the fact that all the authentication is server-side
17:29:44 <ais523> elliott: it's around 1/3rd of a typical 3.5 inch floppy disk
17:29:54 <elliott> and then (5) reverts back to hating minecraft while seemingly wanting to "hax0r" it anyway
17:30:06 <elliott> ais523: Minecraft fans can be irritating, but it is a good game.
17:30:06 <ais523> but that's fair enough
17:30:14 <fizzie> No, 500 kB would be around third of a typical, 1.44 MB modern floppy.
17:30:28 <ais523> elliott: my understanding is NetHack : Diablo :: Dwarf Fortress : Minecraft
17:30:35 <elliott> ais523: It's hardly fair to complain about #esoteric being clogged up with irrelevant stuff when it's hardly ever not. :)
17:30:39 <zzo38> METAFONT seems a bit simpler program than TeX, it has less sections and less pages than TeX.
17:30:40 <ais523> fizzie: ah, out by an order of 10
17:30:41 <elliott> ais523: hmm, no, Minecraft is nothing like Dwarf Fortress
17:30:47 <ais523> elliott: I thought it was inspired by it
17:30:51 <elliott> ais523: well, possibly
17:30:58 <ais523> although not having an equivalent to dwarves makes a major difference
17:31:05 <elliott> ais523: it's more like Lego on ...not crack; heroin?
17:31:24 <elliott> ais523: also, with monsters. so you build shelters. out of lego. uh. It sounds shitty when you explain it :P
17:31:29 <ais523> arguably, you could say NetHack was nothing like Diablo
17:31:31 <elliott> But yes, the fanbase is... eurgh.
17:31:37 <ais523> but there's certainly a resemblence
17:32:09 <elliott> ais523: well, Minecraft has no predetermined goal and you don't *have* to do anything except survive (which is trivial if you disable monsters by going into Peaceful mode)
17:32:17 <elliott> ais523: which is a bit different from dwarf fortress, really...
17:33:03 <ais523> that's very like Dwarf Fortress, which also has no predefined goal and doesn't require doing anything but surviving
17:33:25 <elliott> ais523: dwarf fortress also takes place on a finite grid, as far as I know
17:33:39 <ais523> it's a large, finite, 3D grid nowadays
17:33:40 <elliott> ais523: whereas minecraft takes place on a (well, 200 terabytes max) infinite world
17:33:51 <ais523> I don't see that as a major difference, though
17:33:53 <elliott> ais523: wait, since when is Dwarf Fortress 3D?
17:34:00 <ais523> since, um, a while ago
17:34:05 <zzo38> I tried playing Dwarf Fortress once, I do not particularly like the game, I cannot figure it out and it is slow and there seems to be some things missing?
17:34:05 <ais523> it still has a 2D interface, though
17:34:09 <ais523> meaning it's really confusing
17:34:13 <elliott> ah
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17:35:07 <elliott> ais523: I haven't actually played DF, but I don't get a Minecraft impression from what I hear of it.
17:35:18 <fizzie> It is a true successor to the first Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, then; since that was a really confusing game too.
17:35:45 <ais523> elliott: think Minecraft except realtime strategy
17:35:45 <elliott> ais523: [[In "Adventurer mode", the player controls an individual dwarf, human, or elf. There is no goal apart from survival. Players may either receive quests to kill monsters, which provide no specific reward, or wander freely and slaughter local fauna. Gameplay is fairly minimal; "Fortress mode" has received the bulk of the developer's attention.]]
17:35:54 <elliott> ais523: ok, that sounds like Minecraft, except Minecraft actually has things to do
17:35:58 <ais523> elliott: Fortress mode is the one people play
17:35:59 <elliott> and mechanics
17:36:00 <ais523> in DF
17:36:01 <elliott> ais523: right
17:36:11 <fizzie> <mooz> I think when slaves to armok gets ready, its weather model will be user for weather forecasts, and the US army will use the nuclear blast spell for nuke tests
17:36:16 <ais523> if you imagine that each of the individual dwarves is playing Minecraft according to an AI
17:36:17 <elliott> ais523: I'm saying that Adventurer mode sounds sort of like Minecraft before it got interesting
17:36:19 <elliott> fizzie: :D
17:36:20 <ais523> which you have mild control over
17:36:25 <ais523> that's fortress mode
17:36:36 <elliott> I like to think fizzie has an advanced search system for his entire IRC logs.
17:36:37 <ais523> fizzie: brilliant
17:36:43 <elliott> He just typed "/relevant slaves to armok" there.
17:36:49 <ais523> elliott: grep -r works pretty well
17:37:01 <elliott> ais523: not fuzzy enough
17:37:06 <elliott> ais523: also, quite slow
17:37:28 <elliott> Did Slaves to Armok: God of Blood (Chapter I) ever actually get completed, fizzie?
17:37:30 <elliott> The site seems... dormant.
17:37:37 <fizzie> [Context: "Does this game support anything else than walking?"]
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> it does
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> press the foot button and change speed
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> from the slider
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> however, you'll get exhausted quickly, fall over and hug the ground for hours
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> so watch that stamina
17:37:44 <elliott> August 8th, 2006
17:37:44 <elliott> Well, I've been secretly working on an adventure mode inside of Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress. Now that dwarves has been released, this will be the natural continuation of Armok. See you over there!
17:37:44 <elliott> September 27th, 2004
17:37:44 <elliott> I've updated the "You Finally Aren't Naked" a bit: Armok 0.04.51. It shouldn't crash during heat cone spells now, and you can specify your character a bit more in the creation screens.
17:37:47 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: Minecraft fans can be irritating, but it is a good game. <-- and those who want to be fans but don't want to pay for it tend to be even more annoying. Examples: nooga, yorick.
17:37:50 <fizzie> I don't think it did.
17:38:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Clearly yorick doesn't want to be a fan.
17:38:31 <elliott> In fact it's something that rings a bell as a certain type of behaviour I've seen before, but not in this form -- "game sucks! Rabble rabble! [Uninformed natter]" "well I'm getting it to work with my SKILLZ"
17:38:35 <elliott> Despite the utter contradiction there.
17:38:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well. that is even worse.
17:38:53 <elliott> fizzie: Man, what's Chapter III gonna be like.
17:39:21 <elliott> Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter III: Sorting /dev/urandom, Prologue: Part I
17:39:24 <fizzie> <mooz> the messages are the best part of the game
17:39:25 <fizzie> <mooz> Tongue severed! Third finger severed!
17:39:34 <fizzie> It's got a very detailed damage model.
17:39:40 <elliott> fizzie: Add mooz to fungot. Now! :p
17:39:41 <fungot> elliott: but if it's little ai scripts and storyline stuff, then the infantry will be lost in translation. :-p
17:39:41 <fizzie> You can also walk on one finger.
17:39:46 <elliott> wat
17:39:46 <ais523> elliott: clearly, you just need to control all the entropy in the universe so /dev/urandom comes out in sorted order
17:39:57 <ais523> ^style
17:39:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
17:40:07 <ais523> that was a brilliant fungot comment
17:40:07 <fungot> ais523: and other languages if you want to think about adding it to mycology!!!
17:40:17 <elliott> Mistake, and confusing tar output:
17:40:18 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ tar xf http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_31_18_linux.tar.bz2tar: Cannot connect to http: resolve failed
17:40:25 <elliott> Erm, s/bz2tar/bz2\ntar/
17:40:36 <fizzie> One of the playable Armok races is "flesh ball".
17:40:40 <fizzie> <mooz> they can't move. hit them and get "Og the flesh ball screams in pain. Og the flesh ball passes out."
17:40:44 <elliott> Hmph, Dwarf Fortress is dynamically-linked.
17:40:48 <coppro> :D
17:40:49 <fizzie> <mooz> and no matter what you do to him then, he'll just remain in that state
17:40:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the context of those quotes?
17:41:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter I.
17:41:05 <Vorpal> ah
17:41:18 <fizzie> Except it wasn't called Chapter I then.
17:41:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds familiar... Trying to remember which one it is
17:41:24 <fizzie> These are from 2003 or so.
17:41:41 <fizzie> <mooz> I mean, you can individually set the boiling point, density, color and rarity of the left foot 4th toe hair material
17:41:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Chapter II is called Dwarf Fortress.
17:42:02 <Vorpal> elliott, ah!
17:42:17 <elliott> Vorpal: (Chapter III is called Sorting /dev/urandom; currently, the Prologue is being worked on, of which the first part is out -- Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter III: Sorting /dev/urandom, Prologue: Part I.)
17:42:23 <elliott> Vorpal: (Note: Lies.)
17:42:34 <Vorpal> elliott, :P
17:42:46 <elliott> <mooz> I mean, you can individually set the boiling point, density, color and rarity of the left foot 4th toe hair material
17:42:48 <elliott> there can be no better game
17:43:21 <Vorpal> but, but... Can't I can't control the viscosity?
17:43:27 <Vorpal> err
17:43:32 <fizzie> Here's also another person playing the game:
17:43:33 <Vorpal> s/can't//
17:43:34 <fizzie> <@iood> UHH your dog crucifixion skill has increased from neophyte to beginner :p
17:43:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, is this a parody? :D
17:43:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think so :)
17:43:53 <Vorpal> or is it actually like that
17:44:02 <fizzie> No, I think it's actually like that.
17:44:02 <elliott> NetHack is so boring!
17:44:07 <elliott> It lacks these FEATURES.
17:44:17 <Vorpal> wtf
17:44:51 <fizzie> I believe it was supposed to just include a totally complete simulation of (a) reality. Isn't DF a bit like that too?
17:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, where can one get this game?
17:45:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Dwarf Fortress is http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/features.html, and has a Linux binary. (It is closed source.)
17:45:10 <ais523> fizzie: since when did reality include masses of dwarves, elves and goblins?
17:45:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Chapter I is a free Windows binary; probably Wine works.
17:45:25 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.bay12games.com/armok/
17:45:25 <Vorpal> ah
17:45:32 <fizzie> ais523: Well, that's why it was "a reality", not "the".
17:45:34 <Vorpal> elliott, was chapter 2 FOSS or? I don't remember
17:45:44 <Gregor> It's fun for about seven minutes, then you just desperately want to kill all the little buggers and stop playing.
17:45:58 <elliott> Vorpal: No. But it does have a free Linux binary.
17:46:03 <elliott> Vorpal: This is what Dwarf Fortress looks like: http://diceofdoom.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/dwarffortress-big.png
17:46:03 <Vorpal> hm
17:46:20 <ais523> fizzie: oh, I took your (a) as introducing an ordered list of one element
17:46:28 <elliott> Hard to find a screenshot of chapter I that definitely isn't a screenshot of chapter II.
17:46:33 <ais523> that was a rather fun misinterpretation
17:46:44 <Vorpal> elliott, btw built a moderately secure dock inside the mountain. possible to see it all from behind the doors to spot enemies before you open the doors and such
17:46:49 <elliott> Vorpal: heh
17:47:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Will you turn off Peaceful now? :P
17:47:10 <zzo38> I want to see a code for a roguelike game that is versatile enough (but not too complicated in the implementaion) that you can have not only any race/class combination, but your character can be any kind of creature in the game, and that things can be added without interrupting existing things, and so on
17:47:32 <Vorpal> elliott, No. When I have the roof lit and the corner towers built. Then it is time
17:47:42 <elliott> It would be AWESOME to have a roguelike that has an actual physics engine.
17:47:45 <elliott> Somehow.
17:47:52 <elliott> So that weapons are just coded objects, or whatever.
17:47:54 <zzo38> (For example, adding a new scroll without having to edit the code for scrolls in general, only add a new section to the code.)
17:49:48 <zzo38> Such as if you program it in Enhanced CWEB and there is one chapter for the kinds of scrolls, you write one section for each scroll, the code generation features in Enhanced CWEB should work good enough to make this work?
17:49:49 <elliott> fizzie: Osama Bin Laden lives in a Dwarf Fortress: http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/binladenfortress/originalfortress-hoopa.gif
17:49:54 <Vorpal> elliott, they have physics already. Just very different physics from this reality
17:50:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but all the physics reactions are hardcoded.
17:50:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean a totally generic roguelike engine, just physics + object definitions.
17:50:14 <elliott> Vorpal: ala ragdoll physics games
17:50:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well they are the fundamental laws of physics in that universe
17:50:25 <elliott> Vorpal: (A la minecraft, sort of :P)
17:50:46 <elliott> fizzie: Oh my: http://i.imgur.com/ch2PM.png
17:51:03 <elliott> Apparently this gentlemen died because something had sexual intercourse with a wound in his skull.
17:51:11 <elliott> I... am not sure if that is emergent behaviour or not.
17:51:18 <elliott> "Not to ruin the joke, but just in case anyone was confused on this, it was holding a loincloth in its hand and it decided to beat him to death with it."
17:51:19 <elliott> Or that.
17:51:50 <Vorpal> heh
17:52:39 <elliott> ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: error while loading shared libraries: libSDL-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:52:40 <elliott> $ ls /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0
17:52:40 <elliott> /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0
17:52:42 <elliott> wat
17:52:51 <Vorpal> elliott, ls -l
17:52:52 <Vorpal> on it
17:53:01 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe it is a broken symlink
17:53:02 <elliott> Links to a perfectly existing file.
17:53:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, ./df is a shell script.
17:53:09 <elliott> It probably does something WRONG
17:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, file /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress
17:53:16 <Vorpal> elliott, 32/64 perhaps?
17:53:21 <elliott> $ file /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress
17:53:21 <elliott> /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0: symbolic link to `libSDL-1.2.so.0.11.3'
17:53:21 <elliott> ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, stripped
17:53:22 <elliott> Ohh.
17:53:23 <elliott> Indeed.
17:53:30 <elliott> Silly I.
17:53:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you need the multilib packages
17:53:46 <elliott> Yay, Debian has no 32-bit SDL.
17:54:05 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf
17:54:07 <zzo38> You could have a generic roguelike engine with just physics + object definitions, but I think such thing could be slow and not work well and various other problems, too. Try my way of a roguelike engine see whether it works better?
17:54:11 <Vorpal> elliott, even arch has that
17:54:26 <Vorpal> elliott, does it have zsnes? If yes then it must have a 32-bit sd
17:54:27 <Vorpal> sdl*
17:54:29 <elliott> Vorpal: There's a 32-bit ncurses though!
17:54:30 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure SDL is in ia32-libs or what was that generic package.
17:54:34 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, okay.
17:54:44 <fizzie> It might be lacking some symlinks though, I had some related problems like that.
17:54:46 <elliott> Vorpal: No zsnes in amd64, though. Just checked.
17:54:51 <fizzie> There
17:54:57 * elliott installs ia32-libs
17:54:58 <fizzie> 's no zsnes, that's true.
17:55:08 <zzo38> How many things in the "Criticize" section did you believe? http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
17:55:09 <Vorpal> huh
17:55:10 <Vorpal> how strange
17:55:13 <Gregor> snes9x-gtk is better than zsnes anyway.
17:55:21 <elliott> Gregor: bsnes is better :P
17:55:41 <Gregor> elliott: I spose if your system is fast enough ... which mine probably is, I've never actually tested it :P
17:55:50 <elliott> Gregor: That's actually a myth.
17:56:09 <elliott> Gregor: It has three modes; the insane one requires a good computer, the medium one requires a regular computer, the low one requires just about anything.
17:56:15 <Gregor> Mmm
17:56:19 <elliott> Gregor: You can sacrifice anality for speed.
17:56:30 <elliott> Gregor: *My* problem was that the audio didn't like to sync without stuttering, which I blame on Linux audio for sucking.
17:56:49 <elliott> fizzie: No 32-bit gtk.
17:56:51 <fizzie> It used to be so that zsnes was a lot faster than snes9x; but that was way back when.
17:56:55 <Gregor> Andreas Naive has a funny name.
17:56:56 <elliott> Oh, wait.
17:56:58 <elliott> ia32-libs-gtk
17:57:00 <zzo38> Sacrifice anality for speed? Maybe instead you can sacrifice sanity for wood.
17:57:05 <elliott> Gregor: He isn't in the dictionary.
17:57:18 <Gregor> elliott: I should hope so, although his last name ought to be.
17:57:21 <elliott> Gregor: Or is that Andreas Gullible?
17:57:31 <Gregor> Andreas Gal-lible
17:57:45 <elliott> fizzie: ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: error while loading shared libraries: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:57:46 <elliott> fizzie: lol
17:58:06 <fizzie> That it might not have, then.
17:58:11 <fizzie> Though Ubuntu ia32-libs does.
17:58:29 <elliott> Sure, TUB UNTU.
17:58:33 <elliott> A tub unto.
17:58:34 <elliott> TUBGIRL
17:58:45 <fizzie> I thought latest Debian also had facilities to automagically handle the installation of any "libfoo" package from 32-bit Debian properly into 64-bit multilib mess, but I have no idea whether they actually got that working or enabled it by default.
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18:00:32 <elliott> fizzie: That would require recompilation, unless the entire 32-bit repository's libraries think they're in /usr/lib32. Probably they think they're in /usr/lib.
18:00:34 <elliott> I may be wrong.
18:01:15 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think it directly used the 32-bit repo packages.
18:02:03 <elliott> On Dwarf Fortress: http://i.imgur.com/nqfS9.png
18:02:55 <elliott> hey Vorpal can evil things sink to the bottom of the sea?????
18:03:00 <elliott> a creeper is above me in the water right now
18:03:06 <elliott> and i heard noise
18:05:04 <elliott> oh god it was zombie
18:05:06 <elliott> fizzie why so scary
18:05:47 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
18:07:31 <zzo38> Please tell me which list items in the "Criticize" section you think are correct or partially correct or whatever opinion
18:07:49 <fizzie> The only thing I can find still referring to that thing is that in squeeze, ia32-libs has 101 conflicts, most of which are of the form "ia32-libsomething", and I think those were how the autogenerated packages were named. It seems to possibly have been abandoned.
18:08:21 <elliott> zzo38: What section?
18:08:49 <zzo38> The third section, titled "Criticize".
18:09:18 <ais523> elliott: context seems to be http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
18:09:27 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:09:38 <elliott> Err.
18:09:43 <elliott> Has zzo38 actually linked to that before?
18:09:51 -!- sshc_ has joined.
18:10:09 <elliott> Oh, so he has.
18:10:55 <elliott> Vorpal: My new strategy is to swim at night.
18:11:00 <elliott> I just swim. Constantly.
18:12:02 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:12:54 <elliott> I died!
18:13:16 <ais523> drowning?
18:13:58 <oklopol> if you swim, you can't really do anything can you?
18:14:03 <elliott> ais523: no, I got into a dead end and there was a Creeper there (follows you silently, screams, and then explodes, dealing a lot of damage); I retreated, and got onto some land since I couldn't really swim,
18:14:07 <elliott> ais523: where there was a zombie
18:14:12 <elliott> this was after a creeper had exploded on me
18:14:16 <oklopol> the exploding penis?
18:14:19 <elliott> I fought valiantly, but in a few seconds I died.
18:14:23 <elliott> oklopol: if you swim you can fight
18:14:25 <elliott> WHO NEEDS MORE
18:14:34 <elliott> ais523: NetHack is so boring, make it better
18:14:45 <elliott> ais523: like maybe cut out all the normal dungeon levels
18:15:58 <zzo38> elliott: Do you think that would make NetHack better?
18:16:55 <elliott> zzo38: yes
18:18:26 <zzo38> elliott: Then modify it to do that
18:18:45 <elliott> no
18:20:14 <ais523> elliott: Gehennom is the most boring part, really; the rest of the game works pretty well
18:20:24 <elliott> ais523: I find the stock levels pretty boring!
18:20:30 <ais523> and I'm even used to Gehennom nowadays (it was actually far from boring in my last ascension)
18:20:42 <elliott> ais523: I watched Wooble ascend -- or was it fail to ascend? -- once; he was on the Planes and it was AWESOME.
18:20:52 <elliott> He kept farming puddings while lava warped around him and then praying about 100 times.
18:20:58 <elliott> And then inexplicably teleported to different levels.
18:21:04 <elliott> I sure didn't understand it but it looked fun.
18:21:09 <elliott> Also he was overburdened most of the time.
18:21:28 <ais523> who pudding-farms on the Planes?
18:21:35 <elliott> ais523: Wooble
18:21:39 <ais523> actually, that sounds like the sort of thing Wooble /would/ do
18:21:39 <elliott> ais523: technically, i don't think he farmed them
18:21:48 <elliott> ais523: but he /did/ offer a ton of them to his god
18:21:51 <elliott> like 50 in a row
18:22:17 <elliott> ais523: what was that player that failed to ascend with like 394578348957349579485 gems because of a stupid mistake?
18:22:22 <ais523> DeathOnAStick
18:22:25 <elliott> ais523: I watched him try again (and succeed) a while back.
18:22:41 <elliott> ais523: The guy is... amazingly retro. He played without colours, without any graphics, without using walk, without... anything.
18:22:46 <elliott> Plain ASCII, all defaults.
18:23:08 <elliott> ais523: It was utterly boring: he had like 5 pet goblins, and they kept dropping stuff he gave to them, so he moved around and gave it back. Literally that for 15 minutes or so.
18:23:17 <elliott> I felt his pain^Wutter OCD insanity.
18:24:00 <elliott> hmph, http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DeathOnAStick doesn't note the achievement
18:24:13 <Vorpal> pudding farming on the planes? awesome
18:24:29 <elliott> maybe he didn't actually ascend
18:24:32 <elliott> I think he did, though
18:24:35 <elliott> I recall celebration
18:24:57 <elliott> ais523: I think the problem with NetHack is that it'd be a lot more fun if 90% of it was automatic :)
18:25:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it wouldn't be nethack then though
18:25:38 <elliott> Vorpal: indeed, it'd be better!
18:26:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well that could be argued about. Personally I suspect I would find both playable
18:26:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, I'm okay at NetHack I think, I can now get to the mines without asking for help every single turn, but it just gets so boring at one point and I give up.
18:26:37 <zzo38> So, which of the criticize you believe/opinion/option?
18:26:45 <Vorpal> what?
18:26:51 <Vorpal> (@ zzo38)
18:26:55 <elliott> Vorpal: But I'll always fondly remember the time I killed a member of the Watch and lived to tell the tale.
18:27:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Admittedly that had all of #nethack working on a solution.
18:27:08 <elliott> Vorpal: (The solution involved stealing. No joke.)
18:27:09 <Vorpal> elliott, heh
18:27:11 <zzo38> Vorpal: I mean this one http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
18:27:17 <Vorpal> elliott, stealing his sabre?
18:27:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, way better.
18:27:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, can't run browser atm. Would result in swap trash
18:27:36 <Vorpal> elliott, oh?
18:27:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK. Will plain text do?
18:27:51 <elliott> Vorpal: What I had to do was make it to a shop (hard when everyone's trying to kill you!), pick something up, escape the shop without paying, and then RUN AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE SHOP, where the shkeep is -- this is while the Watch are trying to kill me.
18:27:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Then I repaid his debt.
18:27:59 <elliott> Vorpal: This pacified the Watch.
18:28:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, I'm not likely to look at it anyway.
18:28:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Evidently, they do not keep track of what they're angry at you for, and so any reconciling you do calms them no matter what it's for.
18:28:26 <zzo38> http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town&action=raw&ctype=text/css
18:28:31 <Vorpal> elliott, hahaa
18:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, what did you do to annoy them though?
18:29:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Killed a Watchman, as I said.
18:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, ah missed that bit
18:29:20 <elliott> Vorpal: (Why? One of my dogs (I had about 5 pets) started attacking one, and I was dumb enough to join in.)
18:29:23 <Vorpal> elliott, and why did you do that?
18:29:29 <Vorpal> ah
18:29:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Most of my pets died at the hands of the Watch after that. RIP.
18:29:41 <elliott> Vorpal: (I fled to the floor above to regain my HP which was at like 14 by the time I escaped.)
18:29:50 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, and even after I pacified the Watch, that wasn't the end of it
18:29:57 <elliott> Vorpal: since I had incredibly low HP from them attacking me
18:30:25 <elliott> Vorpal: specifically, I sat there to regain health, when a jackal approached me... long story short, I spent the next 150 turns writing Elbereth into the dirt with my fingers.
18:30:29 <elliott> (Or more.)
18:31:44 <ais523> elliott: oh, that's when you steal from a shop and then pay for the stuff you stole, in order to show the police you are law-abiding after all honest?
18:31:58 <elliott> ais523: yes
18:32:15 <elliott> ais523: apparently, murdering someone, stealing something and then paying it back is better than just murdering someone
18:32:57 <elliott> ais523: The most epic parts were running into the shop -- it wasn't near the entrance to the floor -- and then running from outside the shop round to the front (I blew a hole in the shop's walls, but the only direction it went was towards the Watch, so I basically walked right into their path)
18:33:02 <zzo38> Which terminals or terminal emulators support all of the escape commands in this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code
18:34:01 <elliott> ais523: what libcs does c-intercal work with?
18:36:28 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot I presume. Though possibly with reduced functionality. It needs GCC for some of the weird stuff.
18:36:39 <elliott> Vorpal: libc not cc
18:36:51 <Vorpal> elliott, But if it mostly works on MPW then it mostly works on anything. And MPW definitely didn't use glibc :P
18:36:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
18:37:04 <elliott> Vorpal: But will it work with dietlibc? :)
18:37:19 <Vorpal> try it?
18:37:31 <ais523> elliott: do you consider Inform 7 an esolang?
18:37:34 <elliott> Vorpal: But I'd rather ask first!
18:37:38 <elliott> ais523: probably
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18:40:31 <elliott> Vorpal: what soundcrad do you use again?
18:42:40 <Vorpal> elliott, "Soundblaster Live! 5.1"
18:42:47 <Vorpal> assuming you meant card
18:42:50 <Vorpal> and not crad
18:43:24 <elliott> Vorpal: no, what soundCRAD!
18:43:31 <elliott> Vorpal: (hmm, was there ever a non-5.1 SBL!? :P)
18:43:39 * elliott wonders if you can still purchase Sound Blasters
18:43:50 <fizzie> Soundcrud.
18:44:06 <fizzie> I think there was at least a Live! Value before they tagged 5.1 to the name.
18:44:10 <elliott> Vorpal: "The DSP had an internal fixed sample rate of 48 kHz, a standard AC'97 clock, meaning that the EMU10K1 always captured external audio-sources at the 48 kHz, then performed a sample-rate conversion on the 48 kHz waveform to the output the requested target rate (such as 44.1 kHz or 32 kHz). This rate-conversion step introduced IM distortion into the downsampled output. The SB/Live had great difficulty with resampling audio-CD source materia
18:44:10 <elliott> l (44.1 kHz) without introducing audible distortion."
18:44:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:45:04 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Wouldn't the audio-CD be read by the OS instead?
18:45:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:45:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but if the OS sends it as 44.1 kHz there'll be distortion.
18:45:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Either way, the OS has to resample it.
18:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway. Presumably the software does it. Since the result is great.
18:45:47 <elliott> Well, not either way, you know what I mean.
18:46:59 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the obvious solution is to use lcm(<all the common sample rates>) ;P
18:48:26 <elliott> Well, lcm(44100, 48000) = 7056000, so you're proposing a 7 megahertz sound system.
18:49:04 <Vorpal> hm green roofs are all the rage nowdays iirc. So why not use some roof space to grow wheat on my castle? :D
18:49:19 <Vorpal> elliott, so I am
18:49:32 <elliott> " On the notices: what we are asking is that you do not link to your fork on the main page of this wiki, instead, please point to this discussion or another page that explains the situation. Linking to the fork on this page (or whichever you point to) is just fine. We are also asking that you make clear that this wiki will still be here, so that anyone who wants to stay or adopt it in the future understands that they can do so. We are generall
18:49:32 <elliott> y leaving notices in place for about 2 weeks, then removing them to allow the wiki a chance to revive."
18:49:34 <elliott> --Wikia, being dicks
18:49:40 <elliott> ais523: what is it that drives them to behave like this?
18:50:35 <fizzie> "To revive" is a nice way of saying "to confuse non-regular visitors".
18:51:28 <elliott> Heh, they've added a "MakeshiftSitenotice" template to a "minority" of pages to satisfy Wikia, i.e. all the important ones: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:MakeshiftSitenotice
18:51:33 <elliott> "Please leave this notice here unless you assume responsibility for this page."
18:51:50 <elliott> "The point is that no one is going to do that, with those notices in place. The right to fork goes two ways, and this wiki should have every chance to be adopted and revived if that's its future."
18:51:57 <elliott> Oh, fuck off, NetHack players don't need your bullshit.
18:52:13 <elliott> "I accept that you are moving on, I hope that you will accept that you can't do that and control the wiki you are leaving."
18:52:17 <elliott> ais523: I think I've figured it out
18:52:38 <elliott> ais523: Wikia said they were a wiki host, but then they decided, retroactively, that they were an inter-wiki community
18:52:50 <elliott> ais523: therefore, whoever submitted the request to create the wiki is irrelevant, sort of like Usenet groups
18:53:04 <elliott> of course, this is phenomenally unfair given that this was *not* their original purpose.
18:53:06 <ais523> elliott: where specifically was that Wikia message?
18:53:14 <elliott> ais523: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Wikihack:Community_Portal
18:53:18 <elliott> near the bottom
18:53:27 <elliott> ais523: do you think my interpretation of Wikia's thinking is correct?
18:53:50 <ais523> possibly
18:53:57 <ais523> ugh, I just had to add ?useskin=monobook to that
18:54:05 <ais523> I think I should write a Firefox extension to do that automatically
18:54:20 <elliott> "3.4.4 seems unlikely, unless a major security hole is discovered" --[[NetHackWiki:Next version]]
18:54:24 <elliott> I like the idea of a security hole in NetHack.
18:54:32 <ais523> major security holes /have/ been discovered
18:54:36 <elliott> ais523: how :D
18:54:49 <ais523> e.g. if you install NetHack suid root, as some distros apparently do, it's possible to compromise the system through them
18:55:15 <elliott> News of the #tip command was leaked in July 2003 by Pat Rankin in this RGRN post:
18:55:15 <elliott> In February 2008, Pat Rankin revealed in this post:
18:55:16 <ais523> elliott: there are exploitable buffer overflows and dangling pointer bugs
18:55:17 <elliott> In May 2008, Pat Rankin wrote in this post:
18:55:20 <elliott> In March 2009, Pat Rankin wrote in this post:
18:55:22 <elliott> Rumors that Pat has since been executed by the other DevTeam members for these frequent breaches of secrecy remain unconfirmed.
18:55:25 <elliott> I was about to say :)
18:55:28 <ais523> Pat Rankin is the only devteam member who ever contacts anyone
18:55:50 <ais523> there's no longer any evidence that the devteam have any members but Pat
18:55:54 <fizzie> The others have all gone and ascended, maybe.
18:56:09 <elliott> ais523: do the devteam actually *play* nethack? one would think they would have *some* sort of desire to be in the nethack community, if they did
18:56:37 <elliott> [[When reporting bugs to the DevTeam, it is possible that the responding member of the DevTeam reveals some information about the current development code concerning the reported bug.]]
18:56:59 <ais523> <Sansse> The right to fork goes two ways, and this wiki should have every chance to be adopted and revived if that's its future.
18:57:17 <elliott> ais523: that's what made me realise that Wikia don't consider wikis to be owned by their founders or community
18:57:22 <elliott> unlike their old position as a wiki host
18:57:29 <ais523> elliott: bhaak and I have been deliberately using that method to attempt to answer questions we needed to know about 3.5, for various reasons
18:57:43 <elliott> ais523: why did you need to know?
18:58:12 <elliott> ais523: also, I have a feeling that the next NetHack release might be the last
18:58:40 <ais523> that implies that there will be a next release
18:58:51 <elliott> ais523: I mean, they're too conservative to wildly change anything, and they've been incrementally fixing the code since, what, NetHack 3.0.0?
18:58:58 <ais523> and if the current official devteam wants to abandon NetHack for any reason, there'd be plenty of people available to continue the project
18:59:03 <elliott> ais523: so I have a feeling that they've spent the last few years combing over every line of code
18:59:11 <elliott> ais523: making it as perfect as they can
18:59:25 <elliott> ais523: and then they'll release NetHack 3.5.0, and state that any bugs are official, set-in-stone features
18:59:38 <elliott> ais523: I can't think of any other explanation for the near-complete silence and *huge* delay even for them.
18:59:50 <ais523> elliott: then I can use something like the boulder routing overflow to take over the game
19:00:01 <elliott> ais523: how do you know they won't fix that?
19:00:08 <ais523> (that one's really subtle, I had to change the code in such a way it was easy to trigger by mistake to find it)
19:00:21 <elliott> ais523: I mean, they've been getting bug reports on the latest release since 2003
19:00:32 <ais523> I don't know they won't find and fix it, but it's possible they won't
19:00:38 <elliott> ais523: not going to report it?
19:01:46 <elliott> ais523: anyway, just as NetHack is the picking-up of Hack, clearly any community-continued effort on NetHack would have to have a new name
19:01:49 <elliott> ais523: GitHack? :-P
19:01:54 <ais523> heh
19:02:07 <elliott> ais523: (WorldHack? UniHack?)
19:02:11 <ais523> well, although SporkHack deliberately doesn't want to be NetHack continued, I'm sure UnNetHack wouldn't mind picking up the torch
19:02:17 <ais523> I think people would likely start form an existing fork
19:02:28 <elliott> ais523: but they're liberal forks
19:02:30 <ais523> IRCHack would be pretty accurate for how things are organised nowadays
19:02:33 <elliott> ais523: they change a lot of gameplay and the like
19:02:37 <elliott> ais523: ah, IRCHack sounds like the perfect name
19:02:42 <ais523> elliott: I'm making a non-liberal fork, very slowly as I'm relatively busy
19:03:08 <elliott> ais523: well, yes, but (1) AceHack is a terrible name :) and (2) it's more a UI fixup, isn't it?
19:03:22 <elliott> ais523: haha, paxed has only ascended twice
19:03:50 <ais523> elliott: it's a UI and bug fixup
19:03:56 <ais523> because that's what I think NetHack needs right now
19:04:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: I can't think of any other explanation for the near-complete silence and *huge* delay even for them. <-- I have an alternative idea
19:04:13 <elliott> ais523: just rename it IRCHack, then, when NetHack development stops :)
19:04:18 <ais523> hopefully, everything should be uncontroversial apart from removing attempts to use deliberately bad UI to balance the game
19:04:19 <elliott> Vorpal: They're merging with Dwarf Fortress?
19:04:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I concur.
19:04:22 <Vorpal> elliott, the lead developer bet heavily on DNF being released first!
19:04:33 <elliott> heh
19:04:36 <elliott> well, that's not long to wait
19:04:38 <elliott> it's almost out
19:04:44 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed.
19:04:45 <elliott> 2011
19:04:53 <elliott> it better be perfect
19:04:55 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably it will be delayed again
19:05:05 <elliott> Vorpal: well, no, because the original devteam have been kicked off the project :)
19:05:14 <elliott> Vorpal: and all the perfectionists are presumably gone
19:05:15 <Vorpal> hah
19:05:26 <elliott> now it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_Games
19:05:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I think the project makes anyone perfectionlist
19:05:31 <elliott> who bought up the rights
19:05:33 <Vorpal> perfectionist*
19:05:51 <elliott> Vorpal: DNF is more like 5 games that they keep scrapping without releasing :)
19:05:53 <elliott> every time they rewrite
19:06:02 <elliott> [[Jason Hall, host of The Jace Hall Show, featured Duke Nukem Forever in the show's premiere episode on June 4, 2008 and described his hands-on play experience with the game as "perfect", ending the segment with "I saw it. They have been working. It's not a myth. You're going to be pleased."[99] In a subsequent interview with 1UP.com, he described the game as "amazing" with the summation, "This might be the only game in history worth waiting 12 y
19:06:02 <elliott> ears for, perhaps longer.... It was good."[100] On 21 September, 2010, Hall confirmed, in an interview with Triplebeard.com, that there is a surprise for Duke fans when Season 4 of The Jace Hall Show debuts in mid-to-end of October, 2010.[101]]]
19:07:04 <elliott> ais523: in fact, if I was the Dev Team, I'd release 3.5.0 as 4.0.0 or something
19:07:08 <elliott> or just 4
19:07:12 <elliott> don't need 0s if it's the last version!
19:08:07 <Gregor> Zero Edition
19:10:11 <elliott> "As we have been committed to publishing cutting-edge games, it's obvious that Duke Nukem Forever belongs on the g.o.d. label," said Mike Wilson, CEO of Gathering. "Between this game and Max Payne, 3D Realms will be regarded as the undisputed king of both first-and third-person shooters by the end of next year. To be part of that has been a dream of Gathering's since our inception."
19:11:29 <ais523> elliott: what's the date of that quote?
19:11:39 <elliott> ais523: 2000
19:11:51 <ais523> personally, I find the most hilarious fact about DNF is that it was under continuous development for most of the time it was missing
19:12:00 <ais523> they kept doing complete rewrites with different engines, which is what slowed it down
19:12:06 <elliott> ais523: yep
19:12:09 <elliott> ais523: (also, "missing"?)
19:14:16 <ais523> elliott: well, being continuously bumped
19:18:07 <elliott> ais523: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHackWiki:Next_version_pool look at all the dead, crossed-out fools
19:18:20 <elliott> [[# December 24th --Feagradze 03:56, June 28, 2010 (UTC) Two days after the end of the world, it will be announced that NetHack version 4.0 is actually a Hollywood slapstick action-comedy starring Izchak Miller as the player character. Slogan: "You'll laugh. You'll cry. You'll think. You'll die." It will be availble via Astral Plane Motion Pictures (APMP, for short).]]
19:19:01 <elliott> [edit] 5736650863230 (Sun entered into red giant phase)
19:19:01 <elliott> * Version releaced by octopus like alien race - Kogut
19:23:17 <elliott> [edit] Already
19:23:18 <elliott> What if they released it on some obscure website no one here knows about? 22:30, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
19:23:19 <elliott> now that's just silly
19:23:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
19:23:33 <elliott> ais523: hmm, there are no bets for 2011 on that list
19:23:39 <elliott> Conspiracy!
19:24:26 <Sgeo_> <3 Jolicloud
19:24:29 <Sgeo_> </lies>
19:27:20 <cheater99> ais523: hi
19:28:05 <cheater99> ais523: aren't you from germany?
19:31:58 <Gregor> cheater99: The far-northwestern part of Germany.
19:32:05 <Gregor> So far northwest you'd swear you were in the UK.
19:32:15 <cheater99> Gregor: oh
19:32:18 <cheater99> Gregor: ok
19:54:05 * elliott figures out what patches to add to nethack
20:01:19 -!- Peping has joined.
20:01:37 -!- augur has joined.
20:01:44 <Peping> Hello! maybe you remember me...
20:01:56 <Peping> I am the guy who revived braincopter
20:02:27 <Peping> I made a new interpreter and a python script that carves brainfuck to images
20:03:05 <Peping> the script is kinda lame and not well documented. It's been a while since i finished it, so I don't really know how it works
20:03:18 <Peping> Any idea where should I upload this all?
20:04:44 <cheater99> hmm doesn't the esolang wiki allow this?
20:04:52 <elliott> back
20:04:58 <elliott> Peping: To the esolangs wiki?
20:05:20 <Peping> I'm not registered. Does it matter?
20:05:26 <elliott> Peping: You can put code there, either on the Braincopter page, your user page, or a subpage or either.
20:05:38 <elliott> Peping: It doesn't, but if you want to put it on your user page you will of course have to register.
20:05:47 <elliott> (which isn't hard)
20:06:10 <Peping> ok.. I guess I'll register.
20:06:15 <coppro> youre not registered so you cant run as a candidate
20:06:24 <elliott> Peping: coppro is our friendly neighbourhood bot
20:07:02 <Sgeo_> Number of nicks elliott has called a bot: At least 2
20:07:04 <oklopol> someone should fix that typo
20:07:38 <oklopol> someone once thought i was a bot, if elliott was here then, he probably told said person i am one
20:08:04 <Peping> oh crap... registration. It's night here and the registration page wants me to solve maths... O.o
20:08:18 <oklopol> :D
20:08:20 <Peping> 63-6 = ? :D Ihad to ask my sister
20:08:48 <oklopol> are you 4 or are you too cool to be able to do arithmetic because you're a math major
20:09:19 <elliott> even i can do 63-6! :P
20:09:24 <Peping> well... this school year I got A's from all the tests and exams yet
20:09:31 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:09:32 <Peping> math
20:09:40 <Peping> math tests and exams.
20:09:49 <oklopol> so too cool, just not in uni yet
20:09:54 <oklopol> wait
20:10:04 <oklopol> school might be uni i guess
20:10:11 <cheater99> no
20:10:17 <cheater99> you never call uni school.
20:10:19 <Peping> well it's not. I'm on High
20:10:27 <Peping> school
20:10:29 <oklopol> i thought Sgeo_ just did today
20:10:40 <elliott> oklopol: just did what
20:10:45 <oklopol> called uni school
20:10:48 <elliott> right
20:10:50 <Peping> plus I'm wasted. I spent the whole day cooking, doing good deeds and programming this useless piece of software
20:10:52 <elliott> that's an american abomination
20:11:00 <oklopol> i know
20:11:09 <fizzie> Unischool is for everyone.
20:11:12 <cheater99> maybe sgeo can't speak english
20:11:13 <cheater99> :o
20:11:15 <elliott> in fact we should just bomb the usa
20:11:16 <cheater99> :p
20:11:17 <elliott> what say you Peping
20:11:24 <oklopol> cheater99: maybe
20:11:44 <cheater99> Peping: you should release it as a python module
20:12:07 <Peping> cheater99: the interpreter? No.
20:12:19 <Peping> I don't have the balls to do that
20:12:30 <Peping> Today was a great day :D
20:12:36 <oklopol> yes it was
20:12:48 <Peping> it was a national holiday here
20:12:57 <oklopol> here it was a normal day
20:13:25 <oklopol> we had this seminar and we achieved nothing, and then i had this lecture and learned nothing, and then i slept all day
20:13:31 <Peping> I just hope that nobody will delete my account because they found my last name offensive... Yahoo didn't want to let me register.
20:13:47 <oklopol> what's your last name
20:13:52 <cheater99> today i was doing wfh
20:13:52 <Peping> Hornych :)
20:13:56 <cheater99> work from home
20:14:12 <cheater99> meaning: i browsed blags and farums and watched bubble gum crisis
20:14:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:14:24 <oklopol> well, the sleeping was me doing work at home
20:14:38 <Peping> cheater99: did you feed the weed on farmville well?
20:14:43 <Peping> :D
20:14:49 <cheater99> ?
20:15:02 <cheater99> i don't <farmville>,
20:15:03 <oklopol> maybe he didn't read your elaboration befor saying that
20:15:05 <oklopol> *before
20:15:13 <Peping> that was a joke
20:15:17 <oklopol> and just made the same joke as you
20:15:18 <Peping> ... a crappyone
20:15:18 <cheater99> oh
20:15:21 <cheater99> that was forums
20:15:22 <cheater99> not farms
20:15:28 <oklopol> ...oh
20:15:32 <cheater99> i understand they're both the same edit distance.
20:15:37 <Peping> 'cause I'm tired
20:15:42 <cheater99> but you can't really browse farms.
20:15:43 <Peping> :)
20:15:43 <elliott> <Peping> I just hope that nobody will delete my account because they found my last name offensive... Yahoo didn't want to let me register. <Peping> Hornych :)
20:15:48 <elliott> sorry, the secret cabal of eso rejects you
20:15:50 <elliott> you will be punished
20:15:55 <Peping> :D
20:16:07 <oklopol> i like hornych
20:16:11 <oklopol> as a name
20:16:25 <Peping> it would be a cool name for a doctor
20:16:38 <cheater99> is that a polski last name
20:16:47 <Peping> Joe Hornych, the vagina doctor :D
20:16:48 <Peping> nope
20:16:52 <Peping> it's czech
20:17:00 <cheater99> same difference
20:17:02 <Peping> but I guess poland's got it too
20:17:21 <elliott> ais523: heh, you know the glibc documentation warning for abort() saying "Future Change Warning: Proposed Federal censorship regulations may prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of calling this function. We would be required to say that this is not an acceptable way of terminating a program."?
20:17:28 <elliott> ais523: above it in the HTML source is <!-- Put in by rms. Don't remove. -->
20:18:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:18:56 <cheater99> oklopol: is there an esolang where the space/stack/heap/whatever is an iteration of a fractal?
20:18:58 <Vorpal> elliott, :D
20:19:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I wonder what the Christian glibc maintainers think of that. :)
20:19:21 <oklopol> cheater99: i don't think so
20:19:23 <elliott> well, *glibc documentation
20:19:42 * elliott waits for Vorpal to respond with a "?" indicating he didn't get the original joke
20:19:49 <elliott> (Am I cynical???? MAYBE)
20:20:07 <oklopol> also i'm not entirely sure what you mean by that
20:20:40 <cheater99> well, you know, most languages have some sort of primary data structure
20:21:00 <oklopol> sure
20:21:22 <cheater99> be it a graph (map reduce etc), the natural numbers (stacks, etc), trees (parallelizable languages)
20:21:24 <oklopol> or well most esolangs anyway, or we disagree on what a "primary data structure is"
20:21:26 <oklopol> *" is
20:21:29 <pikhq> Yes, Lisp with its lists, Tcl with its strings, C with its "here, have 2^n-1 chars of address space. Have fun?"
20:21:37 <oklopol> okay, what pikhq i guess
20:21:40 <pikhq> s/?"/"?
20:21:43 <oklopol> *pikhq said
20:21:44 <cheater99> so basically you're using some sort of construct from mathematics
20:21:56 <cheater99> so, the next step is fractals, of course
20:22:08 <cheater99> for example: real numbers
20:22:28 <oklopol> mm reals
20:23:01 <Vorpal> elliott, of course I get it. And no clue what they would think
20:23:02 <Vorpal> bbl food
20:23:18 <elliott> <pikhq> Yes, Lisp with its lists, Tcl with its strings, C with its "here, have 2^n-1 chars of address space. Have fun?"
20:23:21 <elliott> pikhq: 3-bit bytes
20:23:25 <elliott> pikhq: voila, non-power-of-two address space
20:23:26 <elliott> erm
20:23:28 <elliott> pikhq: 3-bit chars
20:23:44 <cheater99> pikhq: isn't tcl a stack-based language though?
20:23:51 <cheater99> pikhq: and C too.
20:24:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:24:16 <Phantom_Hoover> DEAR COMPUTER:
20:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> LOVE, PHANTOM HOOVER
20:24:37 <pikhq> cheater99: Tcl does also have an abomination-stack, yes.
20:24:38 <oklopol> i don't think they are very stack-based
20:24:50 <oklopol> or, well, why not
20:24:55 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so you push and pop Cthulhu onto it?
20:24:57 <pikhq> (I can't call it a normal stack, because you can do a *lot* of nasty things to that call stack.)
20:25:03 <oklopol> s/they/c/, i don't actually know tcl
20:25:35 <cheater99> pikhq: you can do a lot of nasty things to any stack as long as you can break out to C form your language :p
20:25:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, but you can do pretty much all the same bizarro stack manipulation stuff you could do in non-standard C.
20:26:16 <pikhq> (it frightens me)
20:27:45 <elliott> pikhq: can you do continuations?
20:28:01 <elliott> oklopol: "i don't think c are"?
20:28:30 <oklopol> yes yes
20:29:22 <pikhq> It'd be hard, but I'm pretty sure you could.
20:30:38 <elliott> pikhq: "hard"? you just need to copy the call stack and then replace it
20:30:53 <pikhq> elliott: It's a bit of a hack to actually modify the call stack.
20:31:30 <elliott> pikhq: can you pop from it without actually returning?
20:31:51 <pikhq> uplevel
20:32:14 <pikhq> Or return -code
20:32:38 <elliott> pikhq: then just pop everything and push the stuff from the saved stack
20:32:40 <elliott> then continue
20:34:43 -!- Zuu has joined.
20:34:48 -!- Zuu has quit (Client Quit).
20:34:58 -!- Zuu has joined.
20:35:54 <pikhq> elliott: It's just a bit of a pain to save the actual local variables from said stack. Not impossible, just a pain.
20:36:06 <pikhq> (involving info locals to save and upvar to restore)
20:36:39 <elliott> pikhq: Get to it.
20:39:51 <elliott> pikhq: Well come on!
20:46:23 <cheater99> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Julia_Mandelbrot_relationship_map_300_%2890,000_sets%29_.png
20:46:33 * Zuu comes onto elliott
20:46:35 <cheater99> A Julia set plot showing julia sets for different values of c, the plot resembles the Mandelbrot set
20:46:48 <elliott> Zuu: Why... thank you?
20:46:51 <Zuu> :P
20:47:17 <Zuu> i figured if it was allright with pikhq, i wouldnt hold back :>
20:47:53 * Zuu might be taking stuffs out of context... but only slighty
20:48:47 <Zuu> ok, so that wasnt fun... *goes elsewhere with his lame jokes*
20:48:57 <oklopol> if you'd said "comes on elliott", it would've been easier to understand
20:49:38 <cheater99> lol
20:50:26 <Gregor> Also a felony
20:51:12 <elliott> "Choose any monster as a starting pet"
20:51:14 <elliott> o.m.g.yes.
20:51:32 <elliott> Gregor: Remember kids, "fellatio" is only N letters away from "felony".
20:51:39 * Zuu cuddles Gregor as a bribe for not telling the cops :P
20:52:03 <elliott> Vorpal: what's the useful patches apart from that hpcolour one
20:55:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:58:50 <olsner> cheater99: that looks interesting, but I don't understand what's being displayed
20:59:36 -!- wareya_ has joined.
21:01:10 <cheater99> A Julia set plot showing julia sets for different values of c, the plot resembles the Mandelbrot set
21:01:13 <cheater99> as i said.
21:01:21 <Peping> ehm.. excuse me. May i have a question? Where exactly do I upload stuff on esolang? it seems like the "Upload file" option on the wiki works only for multimedia, no zip files, no python scripts,...
21:01:24 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:01:25 <cheater99> if you zoom in, it's tiny tiles
21:01:30 <cheater99> each tile is a separate julia set
21:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, yeah.
21:01:36 <elliott> Peping: Just put the code in the page...
21:01:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Source code just gets pasted.
21:01:44 <elliott> Peping: Surround it with <pre><nowiki>YOUR CODE</nowiki></pre>
21:01:48 <elliott> Peping: That'll show it as koed.
21:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Archives should be hosted elsewhere.
21:01:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No need for an archive.
21:02:02 <elliott> At least not here, it's just a script.
21:02:10 <Peping> elliott: well... not really if I want to upload C source and executables.
21:02:15 <elliott> Peping: Don't upload executables.
21:02:25 <cheater99> executables are a bad idea
21:02:34 <elliott> Nobody uses them (or trusts them). Also, nobody uses Windows here, so they're unlikely to be helpful at all.
21:02:35 <cheater99> what are you, some sort of HACKER?
21:02:57 <elliott> Peping: Just put C code on e.g. User:Peping/Braincopter_interpreter.
21:03:00 <Peping> oh... sorry, I'm one of the majority of the internet. I am using executables
21:03:01 <elliott> If it's one file.
21:03:17 <elliott> Peping: Right, well, nobody really uses Windows here.
21:03:19 <Peping> no its not.
21:03:21 <elliott> So executables wouldn't be helpful.
21:03:29 <elliott> Also, we all have C compilers.
21:04:39 <Peping> if I want to upload a set of files somewhere, and I want it to last there forever... Where should I put them?
21:04:59 <elliott> Peping: Your own webhost.
21:05:07 <cheater99> grex
21:05:09 <cheater99> LOLZ.
21:05:30 <Peping> elliott: untrustworthy, if that's a word
21:05:39 <elliott> Peping: Or you could submit it to the esoteric archive, but I don't think it's actively maintained at all.
21:05:49 <cheater99> *being
21:06:09 <Peping> that's where I wanted to put it, but I don't know how to gain access to it. svn? ftp?
21:06:33 <Peping> oh... svn
21:06:39 <Peping> I'm reading the readme now
21:07:20 <Peping> ok.. no, the readme doesn't say anything about uploading stuff
21:08:13 <elliott> Peping: You have to submit it.
21:08:22 <elliott> Peping: To Graue, who is busy with other things these days.
21:08:33 <elliott> Peping: I recommend just condensing the code into one file.
21:08:48 <elliott> Peping: Failing that, you can put every file separately on http://sprunge.us/ and link to each.
21:09:21 <cheater99> don't listen to elliott, just make multiple pastes, and tell people what file names to store them under
21:09:31 <cheater99> and what dir structure to use
21:10:23 <Peping> oh dear... too difficult to do on windows. I'll just put it somewhere and make sure that it'll be availibel to download for next 5 years.. I hope somebody will take it over by that time.
21:10:33 <Peping> i mean the elliott's
21:11:43 <cheater99> what's too difficult?
21:11:46 <cheater99> copy-pasting?
21:11:55 <cheater99> what are you, kindergarten?
21:12:01 <elliott> Peping: Or use a different pastebin.
21:12:05 <elliott> Like pastebin.ca
21:12:17 <elliott> That should be easier on your limited OS.
21:13:41 <oklopol> cheater99: no actually he's a straight-A student
21:14:10 <oklopol> in high school
21:14:23 <cheater99> oklopol: oh, i bet in that case he hasn't got time for childish things like copy-pasting.
21:14:38 <oklopol> sounds likely
21:14:51 <oklopol> maybe his sister could do it for him
21:15:16 <cheater99> only if she has at least two B's
21:15:24 <cheater99> or better yet, D's
21:15:29 <cheater99> and doesn't wear a bra
21:15:57 <oklopol> i get it
21:16:19 <Peping> :D You dare to mock me :D I'm sorry for wanting advices from you and then solving the problem completely otherwise and far from what you advised...
21:16:30 <elliott> Peping: You sound like a moron.
21:16:36 <Peping> I know..
21:16:40 <oklopol> no one's mocking you
21:16:41 <Peping> and i didn't want to
21:16:49 <elliott> oklopol: I TOTALLY AM (or am i?)
21:17:23 <oklopol> well elliott is, but i was just faking mocking you
21:17:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: what's the useful patches apart from that hpcolour one <-- menu colour
21:17:31 <Vorpal> definitely
21:17:35 <cheater99> elliott is a faker
21:18:03 <Vorpal> elliott, allows you to colour code your inventory based on regexp
21:18:15 <Vorpal> (or glob, but no one uses that variant)
21:18:42 <Vorpal> helps a lot to avoid YASD due to mixing up cursed and blessed items :P
21:18:55 <Vorpal> and NAO has it
21:19:32 <elliott> Vorpal: i tend to read things before using them, but ok
21:19:38 <elliott> Vorpal: regexp sounds like pain, is there a predefined set
21:20:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well there is a common one used by many on nao
21:20:31 <Vorpal> which is fairly good
21:20:48 <Vorpal> ask ais for the name
21:21:37 <Vorpal> you just copy and paste that to your .nethackrc
21:22:11 <elliott> Vorpal: ais doesn't like to be bugged about nethack.
21:22:19 <Vorpal> okay
21:22:20 <olsner> where's oerjan btw?
21:22:25 <Vorpal> well I don't remember the name of it
21:22:27 <Vorpal> elliott, and I don
21:22:27 <elliott> olsner: in some sort of crisis
21:22:31 <olsner> yuck
21:22:34 <Vorpal> don't have it handy here
21:22:42 <Vorpal> elliott, really? is that confirmed?
21:22:46 <elliott> olsner: shell account used for email/irc is gone, last we've heard of him in an esolang-related space is today:
21:22:52 <elliott> You may be anal-retentive, but apparently not anal-retentive enough to keep the email address on your home page up to date! What manner of perfidious chicanery is this perfidious chicanery? Please email me your working email address, if you have one. Thank you kindly. Sincerely, the guy who emailed Ørjan only to receive a 554 User Account has Expired response from nvg.ntnu.no, November somethingth, 2010
21:22:53 <elliott> Sorry, I honestly cannot manage to handle this right now. --Ørjan 04:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
21:22:56 <elliott> first message is from cpressey
21:23:36 <Vorpal> ah good that he is alive then
21:23:50 <Vorpal> elliott, how did cpressey get hold of an up-to-date email?
21:23:59 <elliott> Vorpal: He didn't?
21:24:09 <Vorpal> elliott, how did he get a reply then?
21:24:15 <elliott> IT'S ON THE WIKI X_X
21:24:22 <Vorpal> ah
21:24:27 <elliott> Vorpal: We knew that he is alive all this time, he's posted comments to a blog...
21:24:33 <Vorpal> argh wtf. *kicks weird window redrawing lag
21:24:34 <Vorpal> *
21:24:44 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
21:24:46 <Vorpal> okay
21:24:50 <elliott> Vorpal: did you build night shelters even when starting off in peaceful?
21:25:11 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. To get into the spirit of things
21:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway atm I'm admiring my green roof
21:25:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Psht, you're not nearly lazy enough.
21:25:33 <olsner> I'm glad he's still around somewhere, then I can just wait for his crisis to resolve itself and not worry about it
21:25:51 -!- Hiant has joined.
21:27:33 <Hiant> I have created a bit of a puzzle, and wanted to know if anyone was interested in giving it a try.
21:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Psht, I built my own night shelter.
21:27:53 <Vorpal> elliott, plan: become completely self-sufficient without going out the door :P
21:27:57 <Phantom_Hoover> On the first night.
21:28:11 <Vorpal> elliott, thus I plan an indoor friendly mob garden too
21:28:32 <Hiant> Are you talking about minecraft?
21:28:33 <Vorpal> it is easy to "lead" the grass spreading in
21:28:33 <elliott> Vorpal: lawl
21:28:36 <elliott> Hiant: yep
21:28:38 <elliott> Hiant: like alwasy
21:28:40 <Vorpal> Hiant, indeed
21:28:41 <elliott> *always
21:28:46 <Vorpal> elliott, always the past week or so :P
21:29:01 <olsner> haha, I thought you were talking about real life
21:29:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I assume it will die down in here some time soon
21:29:06 <Hiant> I love abusing the fact that doors are two blocks tall.
21:29:10 <Vorpal> olsner, suure :P
21:29:20 <Vorpal> Hiant, abusing that? how?
21:29:30 <olsner> Vorpal: "become completely self-sufficient without going out the door" sounds exactly like something you'd plan in real life
21:29:37 <Vorpal> olsner, hah :P
21:29:42 <Vorpal> olsner, that would be awesome
21:29:49 <olsner> and Phantom_Hoover built his own shelter, like they did before prefab housing
21:30:01 <elliott> <olsner> Vorpal: "become completely self-sufficient without going out the door" sounds exactly like something you'd plan in real life
21:30:01 <Hiant> Vorpal: Simple. If you place one at, lets say, the bottom of the ocean, it creates a 2 block tall space of air.
21:30:02 <elliott> that's easy
21:30:13 <elliott> online shopping + dedicate basement to compacted waste storage
21:30:16 <Vorpal> olsner, "indoor friendly mob" doesn't sound like real life though :P
21:30:21 <elliott> + recycle as much as possible
21:30:25 <elliott> (work from home)
21:30:32 <olsner> "mob garden" makes no sense at all
21:30:32 <Vorpal> Hiant, easier to use reeds then.
21:30:45 <Vorpal> Hiant, or why not ladders
21:30:54 <olsner> so I have no idea if it's something that can or can't be done in reality
21:30:55 <Vorpal> reeds at least is "cheaper"
21:30:58 <elliott> olsner: there was a reddit IAmA about someone who was living off his parents' money doing this, basically, of course to obsessive levels -- in six years had never left the house, not even to take out the trash
21:31:04 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, actually, I became a caveman.
21:31:09 <elliott> of course he defended this as just being coincidental :)
21:31:20 <Hiant> Vorpal: True, but then again you can close doors, which I used to create an underwater shifting labyrinth.
21:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And very nearly ended up in the open.
21:31:35 <Vorpal> Hiant, steel doors then?
21:31:45 <Vorpal> Hiant, also hm. Couldn't you just swim up?
21:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I shall try knocking out the wall and putting a door in.
21:32:45 <Hiant> Vorpal: That is the best part....if you place enough sand on top of the doors, and then dig at it from the bottom, it slowly creates a nigh-inescapable current. (for mobs
21:32:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Holy shit! Underground lava lake.
21:32:57 <Vorpal> Hiant, haha
21:33:10 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. That is fairly common
21:33:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Not this kind...
21:33:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you are near the bottom
21:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, screenshot
21:33:38 <elliott> Vorpal: it is more the context that is unusual
21:33:39 <elliott> of this whole cave
21:33:41 <Hiant> Vorpal: I am thinking of a maze of creepers, with the center containing the only entrance to my base.
21:34:03 <Vorpal> Hiant, creepers would probably be more painful for you than anyone trying to enter
21:34:30 <Vorpal> Hiant, unless you use obsidian. As I do for the lower parts of the walls of this fort I'm working on
21:34:37 <Vorpal> elliott, screenshot then
21:34:54 <Hiant> Vorpal: It would keep me on my toes. Plus, a well made redstone wire system would allow me to control the shape of the entire thing.
21:35:18 <Hiant> Vorpal: Enter the right combination, and a simple path opens up. Fail, and be doomed!
21:35:19 <Vorpal> Hiant, true.
21:35:40 <Vorpal> Hiant, but hm what would prevent someone from just plopping down in the middle?
21:35:48 <Vorpal> assuming mp
21:35:55 <Vorpal> if not mp then less of an issue
21:36:35 <Hiant> Vorpal: Not mp, but if it was, I would rig the entire system to a redstone clock, causing it to shift every few min.
21:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so now I have my own little 3x3x2 cave in a cliff face with a door to the outside.
21:37:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm trying to build my way up to the surface but it's not happening! :P
21:37:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to make a shaft downwards, then a tower above.
21:38:09 <Vorpal> elliott, hm?
21:38:16 <Vorpal> elliott, what is not happening?
21:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, also presumably you could go up the way you went down
21:38:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I lost my way and fell a lot.
21:39:10 <Vorpal> elliott, walk carefully and mark your path
21:39:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Shut up. :P
21:39:30 <Vorpal> elliott, also: dig a diagonal tunnel up. (45°) And I hope you carry enough wood to make more pickaxes if need be.
21:39:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I just built a workbench underneath my feet so I can get a new pickaxe.
21:39:49 <Vorpal> if you are short on wood you want to use iron. Since that will last longer
21:39:56 <Vorpal> or even diamond if you found any
21:40:21 <elliott> DAYLIGHT!
21:40:22 <Vorpal> and conserve wood. Use coal for furnace if you need to smelt iron
21:40:24 <Vorpal> nice
21:40:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I have almost nothing; I just started this game.
21:40:31 <Vorpal> elliott, so where is the screenshot of that lava light
21:40:34 <elliott> I do have 28 coal though.
21:40:38 <elliott> Vorpal: The lava itself was boring.
21:40:50 <elliott> Vorpal: But there were lavafalls and waterfalls literally all over the place, near the surface.
21:41:06 <Vorpal> elliott, there was no still lava lake near the surface I bet
21:41:14 <elliott> Well, no.
21:41:20 <elliott> Ha! I emerged near the place I first entered that cave system.
21:41:20 <Vorpal> and still lava lake = way better. Add water and get obsidian
21:41:26 -!- Peping has left (?).
21:41:40 <Hiant> Vorpal: I wish that portals worked horizontal...
21:42:04 <Vorpal> Hiant, oh? why?
21:42:08 <elliott> Vorpal: There was water nearby too. Guess I missed an opportunity.
21:42:29 <Vorpal> elliott, you need a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian
21:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, and you would have needed a bucket presumably (3 iron)
21:42:53 <Hiant> Vorpal: Because then mining obsidian would create 2 gates, the one formed from mining, and the one made by the mined obsidian.
21:43:05 <Vorpal> Hiant, heh
21:43:41 <Hiant> Vorpal: It can be such a pain waiting for the obsidian to break.
21:44:39 <Vorpal> true
21:44:55 <Vorpal> Hiant, I should know. Let me find url to screenshots of the fort I'm working on
21:45:10 <elliott> Hiant: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/
21:45:13 <elliott> Vorpal: You're welcome.
21:45:14 <Vorpal> thanks :P
21:45:41 <elliott> All of this and Vorpal still plays on Peaceful.
21:45:48 <Vorpal> oh nice yellow text. "Superfrgilist[... you know the rest and I'm lazy]"
21:45:55 <Vorpal> frag*
21:46:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I plan to switch once the fort exterior is complete :P
21:46:41 <Vorpal> elliott, and remember, this is my first game
21:46:50 <elliott> Vorpal: That's still your first game?!
21:46:54 <elliott> After a week or two?
21:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I build on the same world of course
21:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, why shouldn't I?
21:47:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I have another game, not on peaceful.
21:47:12 <Hiant> Vorpal: Very nice. I dont really have any screenshots of my fort, but if you want, imagine sealab. (Its my inspiration for this one)
21:47:13 <Vorpal> that is all new map gen
21:47:14 <oklopol> i should go see him
21:47:15 <elliott> Vorpal: You haven't died once? :P
21:47:19 <oklopol> oerjan that is
21:47:19 <elliott> oklopol: who
21:47:22 <elliott> oh
21:47:23 <oklopol> i was scrolled up again
21:47:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I died from falling in lava twice :P
21:47:30 <elliott> oklopol: i think he might not welcome that :P
21:47:45 <oklopol> he certainly would, i'm really nice
21:47:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, sealab means nothing to me
21:48:15 <Hiant> Vorpal, its an old show. Lots of underwater glass domes and boxy labs.
21:48:19 <Vorpal> mhm
21:48:22 <oklopol> after forcing him to let me in his apartment, i'd be really nice
21:48:35 <Vorpal> Hiant, I tested around this fort with TNT to make sure it is creaper safe.
21:48:36 <Vorpal> :P
21:48:45 <elliott> oklopol: doesn't he live with his parents
21:48:47 <Vorpal> well the doors are a bit of a problem
21:48:52 <oklopol> elliott: lol no
21:48:53 <Vorpal> have to figure out something
21:49:22 <elliott> oklopol: yes he does iirc
21:49:26 <elliott> oklopol: he's mentioned such
21:49:26 <Hiant> My suggestion would be a chute of obsidian with a ladder, Vorpal
21:49:43 <oklopol> ...no
21:49:48 <Vorpal> Hiant, hm can't creepers climb iirc?
21:49:55 <Vorpal> according to the minecraft wiki
21:50:15 <Vorpal> I haven't seen one doing that yet though
21:50:25 <elliott> oklopol: i swear he's said so.
21:50:27 <Hiant> Vorpal, really? I wouldnt know, I normally build my bases underwater, where mobs dont matter.
21:51:19 <Vorpal> Hiant, I have a deep minecraft transit system. iirc the map viewer placed it at depth 40 or such (0 = bedrock)
21:51:25 <oklopol> the only concrete thing i remember is is that he does not see his father all the time, therefore they don't live in the same place
21:51:37 <oklopol> isisisis
21:51:38 <elliott> oklopol: i don't recall him saying that
21:51:41 <fizzie> Gotten from another channel, may be old-old: http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc1ckr9rF21qbmqmlo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1290094944&Signature=vCmBniQ84G2qMF0YqjTiDEaZubw%3D
21:51:50 <oklopol> most of our conversations are in pm
21:51:57 <elliott> fizzie: It's reddit-front-page-old.
21:52:00 <elliott> oklopol: SNEAKY
21:52:09 <oklopol> yes
21:52:39 <Hiant> Vorpal: I have a solution for your door problem: Ladder, terminating in steel door. Make it controlled by a button.
21:52:43 <oklopol> anyway i would certainly like to see proof one way or the other
21:52:54 <oklopol> maybe i should put up a message on esolang
21:53:10 <Vorpal> Hiant, hm a steel door can still be exploded by a creeper
21:53:28 <Vorpal> Hiant, if it is standing next to it
21:54:23 <Vorpal> Hiant, anyway my fort will have defences when it is done. An inner moat of lava. (There is a nether portal inside the fort that end up quite close to a huge lava cavern. Should be quite easy to get lots of lava)
21:54:32 <Vorpal> then netherstone/cactus barrier outside
21:54:54 <Vorpal> the netherstone being on fire
21:54:57 <Hiant> Vorpal: Thats the trick. Make it so that _it_cant_stand_next_ to it. Make the chute 1x6 tall. Then have the ladder just end, terminating at the base of the door.
21:55:14 <Hiant> Vorpal: 6 tall, that is.
21:55:17 <Vorpal> hm
21:55:33 <Hiant> There is no where to stand.
21:55:50 <Vorpal> Hiant, on the top of the ladder? or would the ladder only be inside the chute?
21:56:15 <Vorpal> and where would the door be? at the top or the bottom?
21:56:53 <Hiant> Vorpal: The ladder would only be inside the chute. The door would be the top. From the bottom, the blocks would be: ladder, ladder, ladder, ladder, Steel Door, Steel Door.
21:56:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:57:23 <Vorpal> Hiant, oh and my fort will have towers in the corners on the upper level. brick towers. I found quite a lot of clay. I'm in the process of smelting it now
21:57:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, ah but couldn't it stand on the very top of the ladder? I know I managed that
21:58:19 <Hiant> Vorpal: At the top? Like with no clear space to go? Then yes, I suppose so.
21:59:06 <Vorpal> Hiant, hm
21:59:35 <Vorpal> Hiant, or would the door be on a different side of the shaft than the ladder?
21:59:37 <Vorpal> that would work
21:59:41 <Vorpal> maybe
21:59:48 <Vorpal> a bit tricky to get in and out perhaps
21:59:58 <Vorpal> and to open as well
22:00:36 <Vorpal> sure a button, but good luck not falling down yourself
22:00:50 <Hiant> Vorpal, its hard to tell. But it seems like a precaution against a rare danger, so the door on the same side as the ladder would work fine, I suppose.
22:01:19 <Vorpal> true
22:01:42 <Hiant> Also, I have been working on a esolang, and realized it has fantastic puzzle potential. I was wondering of anyone would like to give it a try.
22:01:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, and I presume it would need to be iron. which would be tricky to open while on the ladder
22:01:55 <Vorpal> Hiant, oh? details?
22:01:58 <Hiant> Vorpal: Yes, Iron.
22:03:01 <Vorpal> Hiant, about this esolang then: details?
22:03:17 <Hiant> Vorpal: Here are the rules; There are exactly 9 built-in rules. The only valid instructions are hexadecimal digits. You give me an input string, and I will give you the output (Its deterministic).
22:03:41 <Vorpal> Hiant, f00
22:03:55 <Hiant> Vorpal: The goal is to try to derive as many rules as possible. And calculating.
22:04:06 <Vorpal> Hiant, well I gave you one :P
22:04:25 <elliott> Hiant: f00fc7c8
22:04:35 <oklopol> Hiant: we've talked about doing this kind of challenges
22:04:43 <oklopol> i also have one
22:04:59 <Hiant> oklopol: Really? I have heard no such thing...
22:05:06 <oklopol> is the problem: given a blackbox interpreter, deduce the language
22:05:24 <oklopol> we've talked about this twice, quickly
22:05:34 <Hiant> Vorpal: F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8
22:05:49 <elliott> ...no.
22:05:52 <elliott> Vorpal said f00.
22:05:54 <elliott> I said f00fc7c8.
22:06:03 <elliott> Unless you ACTUALLY ENCODED a reference to f00f in the language, which I find unlikely :P
22:06:06 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe your string was output of mine
22:06:18 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F00f
22:06:22 <elliott> I find that unlikely.
22:06:22 <Hiant> oklopol: I see, and the conclusion of that discussion was? Sorry, I was confused. I will pair input/output from now on.
22:06:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I know
22:06:35 <elliott> Hiant: What is "F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8" the output of?
22:06:52 <Vorpal> Hiant, conclusions so far: the language has non-deterministic cross-talk ;P
22:07:07 <Hiant> elliott: f00fc7c8
22:07:18 <elliott> Hiant: What is the output of "f0", which Vorpal said?
22:07:19 <Hiant> elliott: => F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8
22:07:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I said f00
22:07:32 <Vorpal> not f0
22:07:34 <elliott> Er, right.
22:07:42 <elliott> Hiant: And what is the output of "f00"?
22:07:51 <Hiant> F0=>F00
22:07:56 <elliott> Hiant: And what is the output of "f00"?
22:08:03 <Vorpal> hm
22:08:13 <Hiant> F00=>F00
22:08:16 <Vorpal> hm
22:08:19 <Vorpal> Hiant, A
22:08:35 <elliott> Hiant: 0
22:08:36 <elliott> Hiant: 1
22:08:37 <elliott> Hiant: 2
22:08:38 <elliott> Hiant: 3
22:08:39 <elliott> Hiant: ...
22:08:40 <elliott> Hiant: F
22:08:42 <Hiant> A=>No output. Nonterminating.
22:08:45 <elliott> Hiant: I trust you to interpolate the values.
22:09:00 <elliott> Vorpal: all we need to do is come up with a program that halts iff the Goldbach conjecture is true
22:09:04 <elliott> Vorpal: and we have him CORNERED
22:09:31 <Vorpal> elliott, not riemann?
22:09:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Goldbach is easier.
22:09:41 <Hiant> 0=>0, 1=>Nonterminating., 2=>0
22:09:44 <elliott> Well.
22:09:46 <elliott> Maybe not.
22:09:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Collatz is easiest.
22:09:57 <elliott> Hiant: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F plz :P
22:10:06 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
22:10:09 <Hiant> 3=> Nonterminating
22:10:12 <elliott> brb
22:10:15 <Vorpal> back
22:10:27 <elliott> Vorpal: YOU WEREN'T AWAY
22:10:28 <elliott> brb
22:11:02 <Vorpal> back
22:11:35 <Hiant> 4=>Nonterminating, 5=>Nonterminating, 6=>(Nothing), 7=>7, 8=>Nonterminating
22:11:57 <Vorpal> hm
22:12:53 <Vorpal> Hiant, really hard. Can you tell us some leads? Such as if it has a stack or a heap or a tape or a queue or whatever?
22:13:05 <Hiant> 9=>Nonterminating, A..E => Nonterminating. F=> F
22:13:21 <oklopol> better lead
22:13:28 <oklopol> make a few example programs
22:13:32 <Hiant> Vorpal: Simple. There is only a datastring. And that datastring is the execution string itself.
22:13:38 <Vorpal> ah
22:13:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, so self-modifying? Is it TC
22:13:53 <Vorpal> or don't you know that yet
22:14:06 <Hiant> Vorpal: Also, no i/o. And no idea about TC.
22:14:19 <Hiant> A proof would be...interesting.
22:14:32 <Vorpal> ah. Then that might be trickier
22:14:47 <Vorpal> if it had been trivially TC then it might have been similar to something else
22:15:28 <Vorpal> Hiant, so what about 330
22:15:35 <Hiant> Have an example (i/o): 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F / 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9
22:15:55 <Hiant> 330 => Nonterminating.
22:16:16 <olsner> are those |-characters part of the input/output?
22:16:37 <Hiant> olsner: They delineate commands, nothing else.
22:16:58 <elliott> show execution trace
22:17:11 <Vorpal> Hiant, 033 ?
22:17:12 <elliott> e.g. 330 -> 303 -> 330 -> ...
22:17:15 <elliott> plz
22:17:17 <elliott> kthx
22:17:29 <Hiant> elliott: Okay, but remember it does not terminate...
22:17:44 <elliott> precisely
22:17:58 <elliott> tell us the trace every time
22:18:09 <elliott> or it's to o hard
22:18:12 <elliott> by far
22:18:17 <elliott> *too
22:18:23 <elliott> so
22:18:26 <elliott> 330?
22:18:29 <Vorpal> Hiant, well show us the pattern it repeats in?
22:18:32 <Vorpal> Hiant, or such
22:18:33 <Hiant> 330
22:18:35 <Hiant> 3|3|0
22:18:37 <Hiant> 3|3|0|0
22:18:39 <Hiant> 3|3|0|0|3
22:18:40 <Vorpal> ah
22:18:40 <Hiant> 3|3|0|0|3|0
22:18:42 <Hiant> 3|3|0|0|3|0|3
22:18:44 <Hiant> 3|3|0|0|3|0|3|0
22:18:44 <Vorpal> heh
22:18:49 <Vorpal> Hiant, and so on?
22:18:53 <elliott> see that helps :)
22:18:56 <elliott> a lot
22:18:56 <Vorpal> indeed
22:19:04 <Hiant> Well, the pattern matures, but yes.
22:19:13 <Vorpal> now we know that at least this configuration appends to the end
22:19:23 <Vorpal> rather than, say, inserting
22:19:33 <Vorpal> Hiant, what about 033?
22:20:20 <Hiant> 033
22:20:21 <Hiant> 0|3|3
22:20:23 <Hiant> 0|3|3|3
22:20:24 <Hiant> 0|3|3|3|0
22:20:26 <Hiant> 0|3|3|3|0|3
22:20:27 <Hiant> 0|3|3|3|0|3|3
22:20:29 <Hiant> 0|3|3|3|0|3|3|3
22:20:31 <Hiant> 0|3|3|3|0|3|3|3|0
22:20:32 <Hiant> 0|3|3|3|0|3|3|3|0|3
22:20:42 <Hiant> ETC...
22:20:45 <Vorpal> hm
22:20:48 <Vorpal> okay
22:20:55 <Vorpal> then 0 is *not* terminate program now
22:21:13 <Vorpal> Hiant, what about 0 ?
22:21:29 <oklopol> yeah, is it still 0=>0 or does it depend on time
22:21:30 <Vorpal> you said it terminated so
22:21:36 <Hiant> 0
22:21:37 <Hiant> 0
22:21:39 <Vorpal> ah
22:21:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, so does that terminate?
22:21:48 <Vorpal> hm
22:21:55 <Vorpal> I wonder what termination condition is
22:22:19 <Hiant> Vorpal: Yes. In 0 steps.
22:22:30 <elliott> x = x'
22:22:33 <elliott> presumably
22:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, that is quite likely
22:22:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, do you know of anything that terminates but takes more than one step to do so?
22:23:00 <Hiant> Vorpal: Quite a few, actually.
22:23:15 <Vorpal> ah
22:23:52 <Vorpal> Hiant, what about the empty program?
22:24:32 <Hiant> 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F
22:24:33 <Hiant> 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F
22:24:35 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F
22:24:36 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F|8
22:24:38 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9
22:24:40 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9
22:24:41 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9|2
22:24:43 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9|2
22:24:45 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2
22:24:47 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9
22:24:47 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9
22:24:49 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9
22:24:50 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9
22:24:52 <Hiant> Vorpal: What empty program, 0?
22:25:30 <Vorpal> Hiant, the one of length 0
22:25:44 <Vorpal> or is that invalid?
22:26:08 <Hiant> Not invalid, but there is no execution, so it instantly terminates.
22:26:13 <Vorpal> ah
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22:26:49 <Vorpal> Hiant, okay we know the termination condition now. That the program doesn't change any more
22:26:58 <Vorpal> Hiant, are we right that is one of the rules?
22:27:07 <oklopol> he basically just said it
22:27:22 * Sgeo attempted to show his Perl professor some Haskell
22:27:22 <oklopol> his example terminates, but actually it spams the same thing forever
22:27:42 <Vorpal> hm
22:27:44 <Hiant> Vorpal: No. But I will give you the only built-in failsafe: A program of length 0 terminates. (This is not a rule of the language)
22:27:54 <oklopol> what
22:28:18 <oklopol> well, not that it would help anyway
22:28:31 <Vorpal> hm
22:28:41 <Vorpal> Hiant, tricky :D
22:28:44 <Hiant> Its a rule of the interpreter, so that execution will end (besides the one other way to end it).
22:28:49 <Vorpal> ah
22:29:12 <Hiant> Or two, depending on how you look at it (thats a hint)
22:29:31 <Vorpal> Hiant, hm 0330 and 00330
22:29:34 <oklopol> so Hiant: are you sure the datastring is all the data there is, and there's nothing like an instruction pointer?
22:29:38 <Hiant> brb
22:29:41 <Vorpal> (I have an idea...)
22:30:02 <Vorpal> (trying to detect if it is a cellular automaton)
22:30:08 <oklopol> it's not
22:30:18 <oklopol> sry
22:30:35 <Vorpal> oklopol, how would you know?
22:30:54 <oklopol> i know because one rule is executed at a time, and it either changes middle, or appends shit
22:31:05 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm
22:31:06 <Hiant> Back. oklopol: There is an order of execution, if thats what you mean. Other then that, there is no other way to store information.
22:31:09 <Vorpal> good point
22:32:54 <Hiant> If you want to call it such, there is an 'instruction pointer', but there is only one command that affects it in any way. And it always, every turn, moves only 1 instruction. No jumps, ect.
22:33:30 <Hiant> Make that 2 commands -Hiant remembers that its important to display the puzzle correctly-
22:33:44 <Vorpal> hm
22:34:08 <Vorpal> Hiant, fe
22:34:14 <Vorpal> (trace of that)
22:34:32 <Hiant> FE
22:34:33 <Hiant> FE
22:34:35 <Hiant> FE
22:34:47 <oklopol> efefefefefefefe
22:34:48 <Vorpal> ah
22:34:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, sssh
22:34:56 <Hiant> That is only 1 step, by the way.
22:34:57 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
22:34:57 <elliott> Hiant: please show instruction pointer in traces
22:35:13 <Hiant> elliott: That might make it too easy...
22:35:28 <oklopol> but we're too lazy to do a hard puzzle
22:35:36 <oklopol> and too stupid too, probably
22:35:44 <elliott> Hiant: the proposal is near-impossible already :)
22:35:45 <elliott> *puzzle
22:36:01 <Hiant> Is that alright with everyone? I will need some time to hand write it for longer ones, but sure.
22:36:15 <elliott> Hiant: Anyway, you said that it always moves one :)
22:36:21 <elliott> Hiant: write a program to do it :P
22:36:33 <Hiant> FE
22:36:34 <Hiant> BEGIN
22:36:36 <Hiant> FE
22:36:38 <Hiant> ^
22:36:39 <Hiant> END
22:36:41 <Hiant> FE
22:36:45 <Vorpal> hm
22:36:50 <Vorpal> alas I have to leave now
22:36:55 <Vorpal> early morning tomorrow
22:37:00 <Vorpal> night →
22:37:03 <elliott> Hiant: eh?
22:37:05 <elliott> i don't understand
22:37:10 <oklopol> i understand
22:37:22 <elliott> Hiant: I would just put ^ before whatever the IP is on
22:37:22 <elliott> e.g.
22:37:23 <elliott> ^FE
22:37:46 <Hiant> Okay then.
22:38:06 <elliott> Hiant: does this thing really have 9 rules? :P
22:38:13 <Hiant> Yes. I promise.
22:38:31 <elliott> that's more than brainfuck! :P
22:38:41 <elliott> well, arguably
22:39:04 <Hiant> If you want, I could give you some hints.
22:39:13 <elliott> Hiant: are there any rules like "instructions 3, 7 and F do nothing"
22:39:16 <elliott> that are actually three in disguise
22:39:32 <Hiant> No. All instructions do 'something'
22:39:58 <elliott> Hiant: no i mean
22:40:03 <elliott> are there any rules about what N instructions do for N>1
22:40:13 <elliott> thus being N rules in 1
22:40:26 <elliott> oklopol: phrase that better :P
22:40:37 <Hiant> Hmmm. Yes. The instructions exist as pairs.
22:40:45 <elliott> aha
22:40:47 <olsner> 9 rules for 16 opcodes seems low
22:40:56 <oklopol> i am capable of interpreting that output
22:41:16 <elliott> olsner: that's why i asked that
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22:42:40 <olsner> Obviously.
22:43:54 <Hiant> Okay. Two more hints.
22:44:57 <elliott> Hiant: this would be better if you had a bot that could run it, or something
22:46:51 <Hiant> Yes, but I am not an expert on such things. Hint Two: Each opcode acts on another opcode, the instruction pointer, or ends the program.
22:47:59 <elliott> Hiant: An expert on... programming?
22:49:06 <Hiant> I would consider myself a ... creative amateur at programming.
22:49:24 <elliott> Hiant: Are you able to code an interpreter for the language?
22:49:37 <Hiant> I already have.
22:49:44 <Hiant> elliott: yes.
22:50:06 <elliott> Hiant: are you able to use the "print" statement?
22:50:19 <elliott> Hiant: 'cuz IRC is just... print USER foo foo foo foo
22:50:21 <elliott> NICK foobarbaz
22:50:23 <elliott> JOIN #esoteric
22:50:27 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah blah
22:50:53 <Hiant> brb
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22:53:10 <Hiant> elliott: eh, I am rather content with the way it is right now. I was just hoping to get people thinking, not kill them with curiosity. Honesty, I might just put the entire thing on esolang.
22:53:31 <elliott> Hiant: My curiosity is killing me ;__;
22:53:33 <elliott> For I am a cat.
22:54:33 <Hiant> Oh, and Hint Three: The internal representation of each command is a nibble.
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22:55:49 <Hiant> elliott:^
22:56:24 <elliott> Hiant: Hmm.#
22:56:26 <elliott> *no #
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23:06:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I set up a Minecraft server locally, dear god what have I done.
23:07:08 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
23:15:47 <pikhq> elliott: Is it worth doing so?
23:16:02 <elliott> pikhq: Doing what?
23:16:20 <pikhq> Minecraft server on localhost
23:16:31 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, absolutely pointless if you're the only user.
23:16:43 <elliott> pikhq: Well. You can give yourself obsidian if you want.
23:16:49 <elliott> That's quite handy.
23:19:23 <elliott> pikhq: (So you've got the Minecraft bug too?)
23:22:07 <pikhq> Haven't played it.
23:23:50 <elliott> pikhq: You should! There is no way back...
23:25:46 <elliott> pikhq: Would you like a copy of inst(1)? :P
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23:26:24 <pikhq> Mmf
23:26:30 <elliott> HOW CAN YOU RESIST
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23:35:23 <Hiant> Well, I have returned. Would any of you (elliot, Vorpal, etc) like to continue?
23:37:32 <Hiant> With the esolang puzzle?
23:38:19 <elliott> *elliott
23:38:23 <elliott> Hiant: Vorpal's embedded himself.
23:39:32 <Hiant> elliott: I haven't the faintest idea what that means.
23:40:07 <oklopol> i have
23:40:14 <Vorpal> back (had to print something)
23:40:18 <oklopol> i'm so much smarter than other people today
23:40:22 <elliott> Hiant: put himself into bed
23:40:26 <Vorpal> Hiant, presumably it means I went to sleep.
23:40:26 <elliott> Vorpal: <Vorpal> night →
23:40:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I forgot to print something I needed tomorrow
23:40:42 <Vorpal> elliott, saw highlights when I was doing it
23:41:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: I set up a Minecraft server locally, dear god what have I done.
23:41:05 <Vorpal> well...
23:41:10 <Vorpal> I *think*
23:41:15 <Vorpal> and correct me if I'm wrong
23:41:16 <Vorpal> that
23:41:23 <Vorpal> you have setup a local minecraft server!
23:41:29 <Vorpal> elliott, :P
23:41:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I GAVE MYSELF PORTALS
23:41:34 <elliott> just portal innards
23:41:35 <elliott> and built them
23:41:46 <elliott> it did very little
23:41:51 <Vorpal> elliott, err?
23:41:57 <elliott> Vorpal: everything has an object ID
23:42:00 <Vorpal> oh
23:42:00 <Vorpal> hah
23:42:03 <elliott> Vorpal: including the inside of portals to nether
23:42:07 <elliott> Vorpal: inexplicably, portals have an inventory icon!
23:42:18 <Hiant> They are actual blocks, afterall.
23:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe everything has
23:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway iirc portals are not yet working in mp
23:42:50 <Vorpal> elliott, try with an inventory editor locally
23:42:59 <elliott> Vorpal: too lazy :P
23:43:04 <Hiant> But they cant exist, or function, for long without an obsidian frame.
23:43:16 <Vorpal> heh
23:45:04 <Vorpal> ah done printing. Night now →
23:45:25 <Hiant> Anyways, I have decided to spill the beans about that esolang. Anyone still interested?
23:45:49 <elliott> Hiant: Sure.
23:47:12 <Hiant> The rules are as follows:
23:47:13 <Hiant> There are sixteen commands:
23:47:15 <Hiant> 0/0000---Append the next command to the end of the program.
23:47:16 <Hiant> 1/0001---Invert the second bit of the next command.
23:47:18 <Hiant> 2/0010---Invert the third bit of the next command.
23:47:19 <Hiant> 3/0011---Append previous command to the end of the program.
23:47:21 <Hiant> 4/0100---Invert the last bit of the previous command.
23:47:23 <Hiant> 5/0101---Reverse execution flow.
23:47:25 <Hiant> 6/0110---Delete the previous command.
23:47:26 <Hiant> 7/0111---End Program
23:47:28 <Hiant> Commands starting of the form 1--- can not be altered.
23:47:29 <Hiant> Commands A..F are the 1--- form of 1..7
23:49:03 <elliott> Hiant: I would not have guessed the bitwise stuff :P
23:49:17 <elliott> Hiant: Looks interesting. Have you seen Bitwise Cyclic Tag?
23:49:22 <elliott> Hiant: It is similar, but even more minimal.
23:49:40 <Hiant> elliott: I had mentioned the nibble rule. And yes, I drew inspiration from BCT.
23:50:05 <elliott> Well, yes, you did, but the bitwise stuff :P
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