00:03:08 loadlin can't load initramfses, right? :p 00:03:17 Actually, does the bootloader have to be able to, if you embed it into the kernel? 00:04:05 -!- augur has joined. 00:05:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:07:37 -!- nooga has joined. 00:12:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:17:56 The initramfs loading is identical to initrd loading from a bootloader point of view. 00:18:16 pikhq: Right. But you can embed a .cpio directly into the kernel. 00:18:17 Also, if it's embedded in the kernel, the bootloader can be completely ignorant of it. 00:18:20 Right. 00:18:43 The .cpio gets transformed into a .o with a symbol pointing to the .cpio. 00:19:01 pikhq: How small can you get an ancient DOS floppy if you don't care whether it's usable at the command-line, just to run a program in autoexec? 00:19:09 Because I'm thinking that http://busybox.net/~vda/linld/README.txt + DOS might be smaller than lilo. 00:20:07 [ ] LINLD.COM 13-Sep-2004 13:11 5.7K 00:20:17 So depending on how small I can get DOS... 00:20:19 Uh, IO.SYS + MSDOS.SYS + CONFIG.SYS (can be empty) + COMMAND.COM + AUTOEXEC.BAT (can be empty) is the minimal MS-DOS system. 00:20:43 pikhq: AUTOEXEC.BAT would be "linld cl=blah" :P 00:21:00 IO.SYS is the DOS BIOS, MSDOS.SYS is the DOS kernel, and CONFIG.SYS is, of course, a config file. 00:21:01 How big are IO.SYS + MSDOS.SYS + COMMAND.COM, roughly? Assume an old, smaller DOS. 00:21:07 Uh, *tiny*. 00:21:19 pikhq: <100K? 00:21:58 pikhq: Or, more concretely: Minimal DOS + 5.7K <=> minimal lilo installation? 00:22:24 LILO appears to require a /boot partition. 00:22:32 Whereas linld could just run from a DOS floppy. 00:23:01 pikhq: (BTW, this is for a single-floppy Linux like you were trying to do.) 00:23:03 That might be true of modern DOS, even. 00:23:18 "System is 480 kB" --Linux make 00:23:22 It lacks some things though. 00:23:24 Like VTs. 00:23:27 Or block device support. 00:25:28 pikhq: Another question: If I have kernel compression enabled, disable "Support initial ramdisks compressed using [blah]", and embed an initramfs... Will that initramfs get compressed? 00:25:33 Uh, FreeDOS, done minimally, is 112K... 00:25:53 You could probably get that down way smaller by removing some useless features. 00:25:59 (FAT32, LFN, tab completion) 00:26:01 FreeDOS is pretty big :P 00:26:10 pikhq: Another question: If I have kernel compression enabled, disable "Support initial ramdisks compressed using [blah]", and embed an initramfs... Will that initramfs get compressed? 00:26:19 elliott: Yes. 00:26:30 pikhq: Awesome. 00:26:34 elliott: The initramfs is just another object file in the kernel if it's embedded. 00:28:05 ^?ELF^A^A^A^C^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^B^@^C^@^A^@^@^@L<80>^D^H,^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@4^@ ^@^A^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@<80>^D^H^@<80>^D^H/^A^@^@3^A^@^@^G^@^@^@^@^P^@^@ZY»^M<81>^D^H<89>Ï1À<8d>Hÿò®<89>Ð<8b>Oü¿/<81>^D^H<81>ùccd^@^O<95>^G<89>Þ<8d>K^D<8d>S^OHt#[<81>;-ccdt^Eö^Gÿt Æ^G^@H<89>ót^M[Ht YHt^EZHt^A_QSö^Gÿu^Ej^VXÍ<80>1ɵ^Hj^EXÍ<80>P<85>Àx9¹ S^@^@<89>Ãj6XÍ<80>ö^Gÿu8SR1Ò²^K¹$<81>^D^Hj^A[j^DXÍ<80>²^A1Ûj^CXÍ<80>Z[¹ 00:28:06 ^YS^@^@j6XÍ<80>Y[<87>^L$¾^A^@íÀj^UXÍ<80>X<85>Àx^B1À<89>Ãj^AXÍ<80>/dev/cdrom^@^@^@^@^@iso9660^@ ..^@ 00:28:09 THAT DOES NOT COUNT AS A PROGRAM 00:28:13 WHERE IS ALL THE CODE 00:28:26 (a minimal FreeDOS, BTW, is: command.com, kernel.sys) 00:29:33 AHAHAH. Easy way to get that FreeDOS system down in size. 00:29:44 upx supports DOS executables. 00:30:02 Oh, BTW: you may want to leave that kernel uncompressed, and upx the kernel. 00:30:41 * Sgeo ogles the Nexus S 00:30:59 pikhq: I tried UPX'ing the vmlinux and it was bigger than the LZMA'd bzImage. 00:31:15 elliott: Weird. 00:31:17 pikhq: I would just like to say that I've just selectively installed pieces of asmutils... 00:31:18 arch basename cat chmod chown chroot cmp cp cut date dc dd deflate df dirname dmesg du echo env extname factor false fdisk finger free fromdos gi grep halt head hexdump host hostname id idea ifconfig inflate init kill killall killall5 less ln ls md5 md5sum mount mv nc netstat nice nm nohup od paste pidof ping poweroff ps pwd readelf readlink reboot renice rm rmdir rot13 route scan sh sha1sum size sleep sln strings tail tar tee telnet test todos t 00:31:18 ouch tr true tty umount uname update uptime users usleep uuencode watch wc wget which whoami write yes 00:31:25 pikhq: Notice how this includes WGET and shit. 00:31:28 pikhq: Guess how big all these are? 00:31:30 67012 total 00:31:37 67 fucking Ks. 00:31:39 elliott: Yeah, asmutils is awesome. 00:32:08 No, *motherfucking awesome*. 00:32:13 wget doesn't seem to work here :P But whatever! 00:32:31 pikhq: Wait... if I have an initramfs, you won't be able to see the kernel, will you? X-D 00:33:01 elliott: ? 00:33:38 pikhq: Because the kernel will be on the floppy. 00:33:41 And there's no block device support. 00:33:46 XD 00:34:27 -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 70K Dec 7 00:33 ../root.cpio 00:34:32 Welp, might as well compile it in. 00:35:00 pikhq: If I can find a damn smallX tarball, this could actually work. 00:35:02 System is 511 kB 00:35:08 With asmutils and /etc/rc. 00:35:31 Totally awesome. 00:36:06 Oops, I forgot to put init in /sbin. Ehh... I can just say init=/bin/init. 00:36:30 pikhq: I have all kernel printing disabled, so time to wait for a minute and hope I get a shell :P 00:37:09 DIN'T WORK LOL... or I'm too impatient. 00:37:13 I'll rebuild with printk so I can see shit. 00:38:19 pikhq: Hmm... does init= actually affect the initramfs? 00:38:30 Isn't that for the real root's init path? 00:40:47 With initramfs, init= gets passed to /init. 00:41:43 Ah. 00:41:53 pikhq: ...Maybe I should omit /bin, and just put everything in /. :D 00:42:21 * pikhq sees watercooled cases with fans; cries 00:42:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:43:12 pikhq: you do realise just about every watercooled setup uses at least one fan? 00:43:50 elliott: "Fans". As in many. As in several. Tiny. Noisy. Fans. 00:44:01 pikhq: "qemu -kernel path/to/bzImage" should be enough to test this, right? 00:44:03 * Sgeo holds his breath and opens IE 00:44:15 I'm not sure it's actually doing its initramfs thang. 00:44:27 elliott: Yes. 00:44:35 -!- nooga has joined. 00:44:44 pikhq: If it doesn't move in 30 seconds, I'm enabling all this printy stuff. :P 00:45:37 elliott: Also: watercooled computers should have ginormous radiators. 00:46:03 Actually, screw the water. 00:46:11 Computers should have ginormous radiators. 00:46:14 With blinkenlights. 00:46:59 │ │ [ ] Use 4Kb for kernel stacks instead of 8Kb │ │ 00:47:00 TODO: that 00:49:18 pikhq: Hmm... uClinux can be configured to be super-small, right? 00:50:29 -!- madbr has left (?). 00:50:54 pikhq: http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/ Hacking the patent system. "Join us, we'll patent everything, and then license it to everyone who agrees not to use their patents against Linux". 00:51:41 I should not have to manually allow Windows Firewall to make changes to my computer 00:52:02 pikhq: Hmm. If a kernel manages to decompress, print out "Booting the kernel.", but then hang... what's up? 00:53:12 I have printk and everything. 00:54:37 elliott: Uh, fuck that's not good? 00:54:47 pikhq: Having PCI access set to "direct": smart idea? 00:55:50 pikhq: Come to think of it, it probably means that it's failing during very early bootup, right? 00:56:04 Exceptionally early. 00:56:21 I cannot be sure it had paging working yet. 00:56:38 If I knew more about the kernel's structure, I'd suggest you kgdb that. 00:57:20 pikhq: With qemu? Sounds like a whole new world of fun :P 00:58:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:59:10 pikhq: Hypothesis: Plan 9 is the most elegant OS ever designed, in both design and implementation. (Genera is *nicer*, but the code is... heh.) 00:59:26 elliott: Likely. 01:00:51 pikhq: Okay, it's STILL not printing anything... 01:01:01 Are you sure using -kernel isn't to blame here? 01:01:08 Quite sure. 01:01:17 All that does is make the qemu BIOS act as a bootloader. 01:02:22 pikhq: Even without namespaces support, IPC, the block layer, anything, I should still get printk right? 01:02:29 Even with no drivers enabled? 01:02:45 │ │ [ ] Display panel/monitor support │ │ 01:02:49 I shouldn't need that, surely? 01:02:57 Speaking as someone who has actually had this come up, you should still get printk. 01:03:10 If you have VGA console support and printk, you're golden. 01:03:24 pikhq: Not sure I have VGA console support! 01:03:30 Is that actually configurable? 01:03:36 Yes. 01:03:42 │ ymbol: VGA_CONSOLE [=n] │ 01:03:42 │ ype : boolean │ 01:03:42 │ rompt: VGA text console │ 01:03:47 HURF DURF IM TARDED CUZ THAT'S NOT ENABLED 01:03:50 *sYMBOL *tYPE *pROMPT 01:03:52 There's your problem! 01:04:29 │ -> Device Drivers │ 01:04:29 │ -> Graphics support │ 01:04:29 │ -> Console display driver support │ 01:04:34 I don't *have* that last submenu. 01:05:03 pikhq: Wait, what? VGA_CONSOLE depends on "VT [=n]". Or is that [=n] just what I have? 01:05:05 Aha, I think it is. 01:05:08 So I need to enable VT. 01:05:10 Right? 01:05:29 Apparently. 01:05:54 pikhq: Weird that the console would depend on VTs. 01:06:01 No kidding. 01:06:53 "Kernel panic - not syncing: junk in compressed archive" 01:06:56 It does not like my cpio! 01:06:59 Do I have to construct it specially? 01:07:50 "compressed archive" 01:07:57 pikhq: Yes, that one puzzles me. 01:07:58 *facepalm* 01:08:01 I just fed it a .cpio. 01:08:02 pikhq: wut 01:08:10 elliott: At the kernel. 01:08:18 right 01:08:18 elliott: It should just take a straight cpio. 01:08:27 │ │ [*] Initial RAM filesystem and RAM disk (initramfs/initrd) support │ │ 01:08:27 │ │ (/home/elliott/flinix/root.cpio) Initramfs source file(s) │ │ 01:08:27 │ │ (0) User ID to map to 0 (user root) │ │ 01:08:27 │ │ (0) Group ID to map to 0 (group root) │ │ 01:08:30 │ │ [ ] Support initial ramdisks compressed using gzip │ │ 01:08:33 │ │ [ ] Support initial ramdisks compressed using bzip2 │ │ 01:08:36 │ │ [ ] Support initial ramdisks compressed using LZMA │ │ 01:08:39 │ │ [ ] Support initial ramdisks compressed using LZO │ │ 01:08:42 │ │ Built-in initramfs compression mode (None) ---> │ │ 01:08:45 pikhq: It *does*. 01:08:47 │ CONFIG_INITRAMFS_COMPRESSION_NONE: │ 01:08:50 │ │ 01:08:53 │ Do not compress the built-in initramfs at all. 01:08:55 I have that enabled. 01:09:14 pikhq: I figure I'm doin' it wrong as far as cpio goes. 01:10:04 pikhq: Ah. Is "-H newc" default? 01:10:45 pikhq: Wait. You can just feed the kernel a directory and it'll make a cpio for you. 01:11:29 pikhq: "Warning: unable to open an initial console." 01:11:33 Now what the fuck does THAT mean? 01:12:15 pikhq: Aha. 01:12:26 pikhq: You need /dev/{console,null,tty1,tty2,...} 01:13:02 pikhq: Er. How does one cp without making it copy the contents? 01:13:07 You know, just to cp /dev/console . 01:15:44 pikhq: It fucking boots. 01:15:45 rsync --devices /dev/console . 01:16:10 pikhq: I have a Linux kernel that boots to a system with 100 programs (99 if you don't count init) in 567K. 01:16:16 It has a shell. With tab completion. And line editing. 01:16:26 And four devices :P (console, null, tty1, tty2) 01:17:02 pikhq: Aaaand ctrl+alt+fN works. 01:17:07 \o/ 01:17:18 TODO: Put chvt and friends into the image, since I have VTs now. Create more ttys. And then, X11! 01:17:38 Also: Disable all that nasty kernel printing, and other bloated stuff I enabled, if it helps. (.config.good has all of that removed, so I can just selectively try and migrate back.) 01:18:21 Ah, and keep ~/flinix/root owned by root:root... 01:18:37 pikhq: This thing boots in about 1 second. 0.2-0.4s if you ignore decompression. 01:18:47 Literally. It says "Decompressing Linux...", pauses for a second, floods output and instantly drops you at a shell. 01:18:48 Glee. 01:19:10 Oh, I should probably enable a framebuffer at some point... although smallX doesn't need it, so maybe not. 01:19:18 Wait, I have init in bin. 01:19:25 aaaargh 01:19:28 R-r-r-removed! 01:19:31 who pastes so much 01:19:48 nooga: what? 01:20:19 Hmm, poweroff doesn't work, neither does reboot; TODO: remove them,. 01:20:23 Halt doesn't do much either. 01:20:47 TODO: Add some Ethernet drivers. 01:21:52 hmm, whoami segfaults with a simple /etc/passwd 01:22:40 * elliott cp .config .config.works 01:25:44 pikhq: Can I just say that modern software is stupidly bloated? 01:25:53 This qemu window feels so *refreshing*. 01:27:39 whoa 01:27:43 pikhq: So all I have to do is cram an X server into 700K or so and get slightly over 200K left to put whatever I want in. :P 01:27:45 nooga: ? 01:28:11 something works 01:29:07 pikhq: The awesome thing is: This has like 99% of what's needed to do networking. Not sure it'll do DHCP. 01:29:28 pikhq: But you can *totally* put this on a 386 (well, a 386 working enough to not need any of the machine-specific hacks Linux does which I disabled...) and IRC from it. 01:29:46 System is 536 kB 01:29:50 Stripped printk out of it. 01:29:56 It still works and boots instantly. 01:30:32 pikhq: Ha, remind me to add /proc sometime so I can use ps. 01:30:42 TODO: Add /proc for ps. See if it's worth it. 01:31:20 Also: Find out why wc is printing totals twice, second time on the second EOF. 01:31:29 Also: Find out why "foo&" isn't working; job control issues? 01:31:52 Oh, it's Ctrl+Z. 01:32:02 what 01:32:11 nooga: I'm assembling a tiny Linux with X11 into one floppy disk. 01:32:22 how much kernel weights? 01:32:36 nooga: Currently it's 536K, kernel with embedded filesystem (it's 480K or so without the filesystem) with 99 programs. 01:32:39 (but a bitch ain't one) 01:32:46 nooga: From the asmutils project, which has craaaazy tiny utilities. 01:32:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 01:33:29 nooga: It even has a very-tiny wget. :P 01:33:35 (But no networking support yet; almost.) 01:33:41 I'll continue this insanity tomorrow. Toodles. 01:33:42 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:39:36 -!- wareya_ has joined. 01:41:33 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:21:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:31:24 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 02:35:09 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:02:22 -!- TLUL has joined. 03:56:09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heKK95DAKms 03:57:24 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:58:19 -!- whoami has joined. 04:00:24 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 04:05:07 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:05:27 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 04:31:07 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:42:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:44:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:04:59 -!- clog has joined. 07:04:59 -!- clog has joined. 07:18:32 -!- whoami has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 07:49:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:55:04 -!- evincar has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:22 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]). 08:15:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:09:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 09:10:16 "Error: session already open. Cause: No login cookie found." <-- wtf, seriously? 09:10:30 I got that from a university web system just now 09:10:48 due to opening link to a page on it without being logged in 09:29:30 -!- choochter has joined. 09:58:50 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 10:15:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:21:21 elliott (for log reading): I saw this very very bad pun in the yellow text in MC: "sqrt(-1) love you" XD 10:21:29 that is just so awful 10:24:07 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:26:25 -!- choochter has joined. 10:28:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:29:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:55:20 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:55:44 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 11:16:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:17:58 02:21:21 elliott (for log reading): I saw this very very bad pun in the yellow text in MC: "sqrt(-1) love you" XD 11:18:02 02:21:29 that is just so awful 11:18:06 at least it's imaginary 11:21:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:47:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:11:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:17:39 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:18:15 -!- Sasha has joined. 12:21:35 -!- teuchter has joined. 12:24:17 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:40:02 -!- tswett has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:27:28 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:29:29 -!- nooga has joined. 13:30:58 -!- sftp has joined. 13:35:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:36:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:36:40 oh, oerjan ಠ_ಠ 13:38:21 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ehf49/can_we_please_have_another_antijoke_thread/ 13:38:48 -!- choochter has joined. 13:39:52 -!- teuchter has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:57:36 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..). 15:31:33 -!- elliott has joined. 15:31:44 `run allquotes | tail -3 15:32:02 HackEgoooo. 15:32:06 `run echo im here 15:32:21 optimist. 15:32:46 `run echo i'm not here 15:33:19 No output. 15:33:20 No output. 15:33:20 im here 15:33:35 `run allquotes | tail -n 3 15:33:36 268) So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] It's a trivial C program :P \ 269) "* There is no scientifically-justifiable reason to exclude pornography, which is a vital part of the web ecosystem. However, bear in mind that we're tracing JavaScript, not MPEG and JPEG decoding." 15:33:46 `run allquotes | tail -n 2 15:33:47 269) "* There is no scientifically-justifiable reason to exclude pornography, which is a vital part of the web ecosystem. However, bear in mind that we're tracing JavaScript, not MPEG and JPEG decoding." ^^^ This bullet-point is my crowning achievement as as a scientist. \ 270) That is the mark of 15:33:47 `run allquotes | tail -n 1 15:33:49 270) That is the mark of Gregor right there. tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that It's still the mark of Gregor. 15:35:36 1 15:35:38 `run allquotes | tail -n 1 15:35:40 270) That is the mark of Gregor right there. tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that It's still the mark of Gregor. 15:35:47 oh, fuck it 15:35:49 `pastequotes 15:35:50 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27030 15:35:58 `pastequotes 15:35:59 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2865 15:36:09 `help 15:36:11 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 15:37:10 ais523: I think you're right about the qdb, it's terrible 15:37:18 ais523: I'm going to go and delete all the shitty quotes. 15:37:30 If anyone likes them, just look at an older revision :P 15:37:40 `delquote 4 15:37:41 *poof* 15:37:45 `delquote 6 15:37:46 *poof* 15:37:53 `delquote 13 15:37:54 *poof* 15:38:05 `delquote 20 15:38:06 *poof* 15:38:10 `delquote 25 15:38:11 *poof* 15:38:23 `delquote 38 15:38:24 *poof* 15:38:26 `delquote 39 15:38:26 *poof* 15:38:29 `delquote 40 15:38:30 *poof* 15:38:32 `delquote 41 15:38:33 *poof* 15:38:42 `delquote 45 15:38:43 *poof* 15:38:51 `delquote 51 15:38:52 *poof* 15:38:54 `delquote 52 15:38:55 *poof* 15:39:08 `delquote 59 15:39:10 *poof* 15:39:12 `delquote 60 15:39:15 *poof* 15:39:16 I should do this in /msg. 15:39:19 i hope you took into consideration that the numbers change after a deletion 15:39:34 oerjan: whoops :) 15:39:36 `help 15:39:38 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 15:39:38 time to `revert 15:39:56 `revert 157 15:39:57 Done. 15:40:04 ok, i'll do it properly this time 15:50:40 124) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. 15:50:45 something went wrong there :D 15:50:50 oh, everything got renumbered when i removed one quote 15:50:51 ha 15:51:51 * elliott removes the literal tab from quote 128 16:02:10 -!- nopseudoidea has joined. 16:05:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:06:12 Okay, I hereby declare that the average quality of quotes in the database is Pretty Good. 16:06:30 Wait, never mind, I just made a MISTAKE. 16:07:01 Never mind, it resolved itself. 16:07:02 `quote 16:07:03 99) Ah, vulva. What is that, anyway? 16:07:12 `quote 16:07:13 `quote 16:07:13 `quote 16:07:14 `quote 16:07:26 76) Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? 16:07:29 154) but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well 16:07:29 230) Thanks to nooga for constructive criticism, his ideas and being a constant annoyance. --http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/ 16:07:29 80) I'm 100% of what sort of magic was involved in it 16:10:44 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:12:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:38:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:38:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:42:47 AKSFJKER 16:42:55 WHY ARE THERE NO TINY VI CLONES 16:43:05 elliott: how is your very damn small linux? 16:43:16 nooga: in need of a vi clone :) 16:43:31 elliott, is this Kitten? 16:43:31 elliott: you will have to install TECO instead *MWAHAHAHA* 16:43:37 isn't cat and sed enough? :D 16:43:40 Phantom_Hoover: No way! This is The Insane Flinix. 16:43:59 oerjan: TECO! 16:44:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 16:44:08 Phantom_Hoover: A compleat (well, for some definition of compleat) Linux distribution, with networking, X11 and an IRC client, in one 1.44 meg floppy. 16:44:15 oerjan: I love TECO, man! 16:44:17 I've edited with it. 16:44:24 Maybe I'll try Emacs; that's gotta be smaller, right? 16:44:30 Or write my ow- *GAK!* 16:44:38 The anti-NIH gods have cast me away from my own life. 16:44:40 elliott: http://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ViFamily 16:44:57 http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2010/11/30/the-glorious-horror-of-teco/ 16:44:59 http://xvi.sourceforge.net/ seems to be the smallest, from their little table there. 16:45:02 use ed 16:45:10 oerjan: "scientopia"? they renamed it again? 16:45:12 or em 16:45:16 oerjan: what fucking kind of name is scientopia :) 16:45:29 no wait scienceblogs is still there 16:45:41 ah, he moved 16:46:08 lol, scienceblogs gave pepsico a blog 16:46:26 anyway the problem with xvi is that I need termcap and termcap is ancient vintage software :) 16:46:29 and uh 16:46:34 it's still like 16:46:38 gonna be 13K for it and all the supported files 16:46:41 but i guess it'll compress well 16:46:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:46:57 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte). 16:47:07 hi ais523 16:47:28 elliott: wait you are _anti-NIH_ now? 16:47:32 oerjan: no 16:47:36 oerjan: but the gods are 16:47:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:48:05 maybe it's time for my topic idea 16:48:32 -!- oerjan has set topic: The knights who say NIH | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:48:35 hmph libtermcap.a is 40K that's huge. 16:48:40 oerjan: WTF I THOUGHT OF THAT YESTERDAY 16:48:46 fuck you, synchronicitician 16:48:51 *MWAHAHAHA* 16:49:12 oh it had -g 16:49:14 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:49:15 and i've been thinking of it for a while too :D 16:49:19 10K now, and I'll sstrip the resulting xvi 16:49:27 hi elliott 16:49:46 also, do you really need support for more than one terminal? 16:49:53 ais523: no, but xvi uses termcap 16:49:56 so I have to have the library 16:50:00 patch it so it doesn't 16:50:02 and I figure the real termcap is smaller than terminfo's emulation of it 16:50:12 ais523: i'm allergic to vt100 codes 16:50:18 they really aren't too difficult 16:50:21 ais523: by the way, I cleaned out most of the crap from the quotes file 16:50:30 I know they aren't difficult, I just don't wannaaaa :) 16:50:34 `pastequotes 16:50:48 HackEgo is a bit slow. 16:50:54 note: most of, I make no guarantees as to the quality of the quotes file :) 16:50:56 and I refuse to remove any fungot quote 16:51:00 -!- nooga has joined. 16:51:12 he deserves a lower threshold for what constitutes a good quote, since he did it without a brain 16:51:16 s/he/it/g 16:51:21 (sorry fungot) 16:51:26 oh, RIP fungot :P 16:51:30 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30285 16:52:02 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 127K Dec 7 16:51 xvi 16:52:08 I can /not/ afford to spend 127K on an editor. 16:52:18 hmm, levee looks the smallest then 16:52:23 even so, it's 37K on Mastodon 16:52:24 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:52:24 elliott: http://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TinyEditors 16:52:37 elliott: i just wanted to say that you should try levee 16:53:05 nooga: I'd already thought of levee, being the official David Parsons Stalker. 16:53:06 elliott: most of the old DOS editors were smaller than 64KiB 16:53:11 so they fit in a .COM file 16:53:16 ais523: they ran on DOS, though 16:53:18 not quite the same thing as linux :) 16:53:25 sheesh, if I can't get a really tiny editor I'll write my own... in asm! 16:53:30 maybe asmutils will accept it 16:53:50 what features would you want? 16:54:17 for me, the minimum for a usable editor is inserting letters, cursor movement, deleting letters via delete and backspace, and preserving indentation from one line to the next 16:54:26 (I don't consider Notepad a usable editor as it lacks the last feature there) 16:55:01 elliott: e3 ? 16:55:11 ais523: the latter is useless bloat as far as flinix as concerned; you'll be editing, what, config files at the most 16:55:20 ais523: I am not sure Flinix actually has a *use* :) 16:55:30 ais523: but, uh, features I'd want: 16:55:38 the basic : commands like w, o, q 16:55:48 insert mode 16:55:49 oh, I forgot about saving and quitting 16:55:50 http://freshmeat.net/projects/virus/ 16:55:57 you could quit via SIGINT, but there should be a way to save 16:56:07 and I said "inserting letters", overwriting them would be bloat 16:56:07 the commands "x", "d", "^", "$", "a", "i" 16:56:15 the latter two entering insert mode 16:56:19 and finally, the command "c" for overwrite 16:56:25 plus the vi-style numerical prefixes of those 16:56:34 well, numerical and direction 16:56:40 ad y and p 16:56:45 elliott: I was trying to stay general, not assuming vi-like 16:56:47 nooga: sure, sure, if you wanna be bloaty 16:56:51 ais523: well, I want a vi-like editor :) 16:56:53 ais523: posix specifies it! 16:56:57 nooga: aha 16:57:14 I'll try that after levee 16:57:31 elliott: what about this for an idea: you can move the movement commands to arrow keys and home/end/etc 16:57:38 that way, you wouldn't have the overhead of entering and leaving insert mode 16:57:48 ais523: congratulations, you just invented emacs 16:57:56 ais523: (and how do you do :? oh wait, I know, Alt+X!) 16:58:02 genius! and we can put Lisp in it, too 16:58:07 (fun fact: original ex had lisp) 16:58:21 elliott: I'm aware of the irony :) 16:58:43 ais523: I actually think insert mode is less code overhead 16:58:50 ais523: because arrow keys etc. come as multiple characters 16:58:53 so you have to maintain state /anyway/ 16:59:19 to be fair, Emacs and vim aren't that different; in vim you press esc and i to switch between modes, in Emacs you hold and release control 16:59:55 ugh, you stupid configure script 17:00:26 but I'm not a configure script! 17:00:40 ais523: i'm referring to levee's 17:01:00 which only takes $CC as a path, so I can't say "diet -Os pcc", and first tries CC without CFLAGS, so I can't say CC="diet" CFLAGS="-Os pcc" 17:01:07 solution: wrapper script! dietpcc! 17:01:16 just like pcc, but with fewer calories! 17:02:47 Why can't you say CC="diet -Os pcc"? 17:03:11 Oh 17:03:14 Only takes CC as a path. 17:03:17 elliott: bundle hedgehog lisp in flinix 17:03:21 That's pretty bizarre. 17:03:50 Gregor: It calls some C program that uses exec* of some kind. 17:03:51 So yeah. 17:03:54 (I think.) 17:03:58 (Who knows, this is just a guess.) 17:04:04 find.o: In function `omatch': 17:04:04 (.text+0x1ad): undefined reference to `toupper' 17:04:04 find.o: In function `omatch': 17:04:04 (.text+0x1bc): undefined reference to `toupper' 17:04:05 LAL WAT 17:04:05 LAL WAT 17:04:09 *no duplicate line 17:08:15 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 59531 Dec 7 17:07 lev 17:08:18 huge and requires termcap too 17:08:26 I'll try virus 17:10:49 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 54075 Dec 7 17:10 virus 17:10:59 bullshit. 17:12:10 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 37691 Dec 7 17:11 virus 17:12:11 way too big 17:12:19 wtf 17:12:27 they've said it's tiny 17:12:35 nooga: yeah and that's with every feature disabled, sstrip'd, compiled with pcc, and linked with dietlibc 17:12:39 tiny my ass 17:12:49 quick, someone name my vi clone with a word involving "vi" 17:12:54 ais523! quick! bring out the puns! 17:14:07 elliott, vimsy? 17:14:16 (yes horrible pun) 17:14:18 Vorpal: that is not a word 17:14:24 elliott, it is almost whimsy 17:16:05 viscous, vicious, vixen, villain, vicissitude, vigil, vine, violator, vitriolic 17:16:09 nooga: pick one 17:16:58 viaduct 17:17:04 Viscous. 17:17:47 ^run echo $(( RANDOM % 10 )) 17:17:53 no, it should be a thing-that-does i think 17:17:56 e.g. villain, violator 17:18:05 violator, i'll go with violator 17:18:08 ^help 17:18:12 Vorpal: fail 17:18:12 uh 17:18:16 you fail forever 17:18:18 elliott, did I mix up the bots? 17:18:19 oh yes 17:18:24 I did mix them up 17:18:31 `run echo $(( RANDOM % 10 )) 17:18:46 `help 17:18:55 speaking of which, where is fungot? 17:18:58 fizzie, ! 17:19:03 fizzie, bring back fungot 17:19:14 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 17:19:17 1 17:19:40 so what's the stupid set of ioctls you need to get a raw terminal 17:19:50 elliott, you mean to implement one or? 17:20:16 Vorpal: no, to put the terminal into one 17:20:41 elliott, uh what are you trying to do exactly. 17:20:46 (or approx) 17:20:59 elliott: vixen 17:21:01 sounds nice 17:21:03 Vorpal: it's very obvious what i mean to anyone who has done this before, if you haven't done any terminal programming you won't know 17:21:09 nooga: yes but all the furries will use it. 17:21:39 elliott, I have done some. Written a tool that emulated a terminal to be able to send a password to sudo 17:21:48 or was it su? Was like 3 years ago 17:22:18 http://www.ultravixens.net/ uh, the domain seems to be reserved 17:22:27 -!- nopseudoidea has joined. 17:22:39 elliott: oh come on, the SADOL interpreter is called BDSM 17:23:09 elliott, things that may be of use: console_ioctl(4) and termios(3) (the latter I doubt you mean but who knows) 17:23:23 Vorpal: yes, it's doing what termios does 17:23:27 but termios is ~big 17:23:34 so i'm going to do it with ioctls 17:23:38 ah look, some nice code I can rip off! 17:24:04 elliott, so wait, Kitten is minimalistic now? 17:24:14 elliott, hm. termios big? 17:24:24 Phantom_Hoover_: THIS IS FLINIX NOT KITTEN I TOLD YOU THAT 17:24:34 Ah. 17:24:40 elliott, but why? the code is only in one copy on the disk? 17:24:57 I did disconnect just after asking, so I didn't know... 17:25:00 Phantom_Hoover_: ah 17:25:04 Vorpal: because, like every abstraction, it uses more code than doing it directly 17:25:19 Phantom_Hoover: No way! This is The Insane Flinix. 17:25:20 Phantom_Hoover: A compleat (well, for some definition of compleat) Linux distribution, with networking, X11 and an IRC client, in one 1.44 meg floppy. 17:25:27 elliott, but since there is bound to be some app that needs it anyway it will still exist in exactly one copy on the system 17:25:54 elliott, after all, aren't you using a deduplicating filesystem? 17:26:16 elliott, but since there is bound to be some app that needs it anyway it will still exist in exactly one copy on the system 17:26:19 you realise this is flinix? 17:26:22 no, there will not be any other app that uses it 17:26:27 because there is not enough space on a floppy for that. 17:26:34 elliott, flinix? 17:26:36 what is that 17:26:44 Vorpal: 17:26:45 Phantom_Hoover: No way! This is The Insane Flinix. 17:26:45 Phantom_Hoover: A compleat (well, for some definition of compleat) Linux distribution, with networking, X11 and an IRC client, in one 1.44 meg floppy. 17:26:45 elliott, but since there is bound to be some app that needs it anyway it will still exist in exactly one copy on the system 17:26:51 BUY A CLIENT WITH SCROLLBACK ALREADY 17:26:54 >_< 17:27:03 why 17:27:10 (as in why make that distro) 17:27:11 why what 17:27:14 because i want to. 17:27:24 Vorpal: why did you make cfunge 17:27:56 elliott, because I wanted to code something and was bored, and it looked like an interesting thing to code. 17:28:25 Vorpal: so, in short: "because i wanted to." 17:28:31 elliott, indeed 17:28:41 elliott, but I though you were busy with kitten? 17:29:54 Vorpal: pending on coreutils 17:31:17 elliott, ah, you took a pause from writing that? 17:31:40 elliott, also which X will you fit on that floppy 17:31:48 not xorg I presume 17:32:59 Vorpal: smallX 17:33:09 and yes, this is my way of avoiding the infinite tedium of writing a coreutils 17:33:26 Vorpal: smallX is this server that ran on 386s with 4 megs of ram as part of Small Linux 17:33:28 libc5 based 17:33:35 I just need to find a tarball on an ftp server that still exists :) 17:33:51 it has two servers, mono (for Hercules mono cards and the like) and 16-colour VGA 17:33:55 and its own tiny Xlib 17:34:05 should suffice to run a very small terminal program at least 17:36:07 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:36:41 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 1639 Dec 7 17:36 vi 17:36:50 it goes into raw mode, reads one character, puts the mode back, and exits :) 17:36:55 in C for now 17:38:20 huh 17:38:42 good luck with writing that 17:39:04 elliott, can't you reuse code for some tools from heirloom? 17:39:17 Vorpal: i looked at heirloom code; it may be Olde Tymes but it sure isn't lean 17:39:27 Vorpal: in fact i'd say it's about as ugly as BSD core utils. maybe more 17:39:36 cat has like 5 flags :) 17:39:44 also i don't /think/ it has mount, not sure 17:39:52 elliott: http://hedgehog.oliotalo.fi/ bundle this 17:39:55 elliott, saves on binary size to merge tools ;P 17:40:03 nooga: what lang is it implemented in? C? 17:40:06 ie. your goals are somewhat conflicting 17:40:11 Vorpal: I do do that 17:40:22 Vorpal: anyway it's more interface bloat i care about, it's just for fun, the size thing 17:40:29 Vorpal: asmutils whoop me thoroughly in the ass as far as size goes 17:40:32 (and i'm using them in flinix) 17:40:46 elliott: who cares, it compiles to 20kB 17:41:13 elliott, why not use busybox or asmutils then? 17:41:30 elliott: and yes, it's in C 17:41:33 Vorpal: busybox is huge 17:41:39 nooga: 20K? pah, I can get it less 17:42:01 nooga: what is the shared secret for :p 17:42:43 but it's featureful 17:43:06 and proveides a damn small scripting language for flinix 17:44:06 nooga: unfortunately, flinix is too useless to need one 17:44:10 nooga: what executable is 20K for you? 17:45:45 oh, the interpreter 17:45:53 nooga: hhi, right 17:46:07 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 30067 Dec 7 17:45 hhi 17:46:11 nooga: ka-pow! 17:46:32 UNFORTUNATELY, I would rather spend the bytes on a C compiler. 17:46:39 (anyone know a reaaaaaaaaally tiny libc? :P) 17:48:26 http://www.fefe.de/dietlibc/ 17:49:13 elliott, yes the one I used on the rcx. That was libc in the "This isn't hosted so fuck you" meaning though 17:49:54 nooga: dude, i'm well aware of dietlibc 17:49:58 seeing as I've patched it 17:50:00 it's still pretty big 17:50:07 like one meg libc.a or so with stuff enabled 17:50:11 maybe a few hundred K with stuff disabled 17:50:20 I'm looking for 40K, 50K or so 17:50:23 the one in asmutils is 20K 17:50:25 or less, I forget 17:50:28 elliott, after all, the whole OS and any programs have to fit into a 16-bit address space. Together with a rather large ROM. 17:50:29 but i have a feeling it does not implement much :) 17:50:52 Vorpal: you think that's bad, my fucking kernel takes up 480K to do barely anything at all for me 17:51:16 * elliott considers not supporting command repeats >9 17:51:22 elliott, wrong OS :P 17:52:06 when will be the first release? 17:52:49 elliott, why not drop printf. It tends to take a lot of space. You can have snprintf that does %s and %x, that is enough for anyone 17:52:50 ;P 17:52:54 bbl an hour or so 17:53:11 Vorpal: i don't even use printf 17:53:16 nooga: as soon as I get X working 17:53:29 ...somehow, my loop supporting any int is smaller than a conditional just supporting one digit 17:53:37 Vorpal: (even in my real programs) 17:53:46 wait, no it isn't, it's quite a bit bigger like that 17:56:28 then what do you use instead of printf() ? 17:57:20 nooga: write 17:57:27 usually 17:58:23 then how to you print numbers? 17:59:42 nooga: i have an ltostr routine i carry around :p if I was less silly, I'd just use libowfat, which has formatted printing using write 17:59:47 http://www.fefe.de/libowfat/ 17:59:56 although it's gpl 18:00:03 so i'd probably use http://www.fefe.de/djb/ directly 18:05:06 nooga: ok e3 is tiny 18:05:10 but irritating interface 18:06:52 ok, it needs sed 18:07:23 ah, e3 can emulate vi 18:11:15 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte). 18:13:00 elliott, how are you calling the syscalls? 18:13:15 Phantom_Hoover_: err, me? in what? 18:13:33 In the code you're writing, presumably sans a libc. 18:13:39 what code? 18:13:50 For Flinix? 18:13:57 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:14:01 What code? 18:14:12 So you've not written any code? 18:14:29 Not yet! 18:15:06 -!- nooga has joined. 18:15:53 How do you plan to call them? 18:15:57 damn 18:16:07 my internet connection is flaky 18:16:25 Phantom_Hoover_: I don't plan to write any code. 18:16:32 So, Julian Assange arrested in this piece of shit nation, denied bail. 18:16:40 On the rape "charges", lawl. 18:16:51 There are nations that aren't complying? 18:17:04 Ecuador has caved in, Sweden was helping all along... 18:17:16 e3 seems nice 18:17:25 nooga: yeah you can make it emulate vi by default 18:18:29 http://piumarta.com/software/peg/ how awesome 18:18:30 -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 615K Dec 7 18:15 dietlibc.a 18:18:32 with ~everything disabled 18:18:40 nooga: you didn't know about PEGs? 18:18:45 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:19:01 i learnt about it when playing with tinyrb 18:19:22 so does anyone know about a REALLY tiny libc :) 18:19:45 uclibc ? 18:21:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:28:15 Hah: "If two of the three co-authors on this draft cannot agree on the semantics, then it is maybe premature for them to expect the Internet community to do so." 18:29:06 nooga: uClibc is huge 18:29:08 compared to dietlibc 18:29:16 oh 18:29:24 then i don't have an idea 18:34:47 .suicide:db__n,"Suicide is painless...", EOL 18:34:47 .stop:db__n,"You say STOP and I say go...", EOL 18:34:47 .nosuchpiddb"Child is 0xDEAD. I'm sorry", __n, EOL 18:44:47 System is 670 kB 18:44:52 Dude, I bloated my system with ethernet drivers. 18:48:38 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 18:51:46 15:37:38 and it is imperative that I do not use facebook 18:51:51 Vorpal will literally explode if he uses facebook. 18:51:55 Literally. 18:53:18 15:46:26 Gregor-W, use your own colour matcher! 18:53:18 15:46:32 AnMaster: I do. Inverted. 18:53:26 Gregor: Didn't you write it to *avoid* doing that kind of stuff? :p 18:54:45 ais523: can you tell esr that the problem with open source is that the linux kernel doesn't let you disable some stuff? 18:54:48 ais523: i hear he's influential 18:56:29 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:56:49 -!- wareya has joined. 18:57:35 elliott, 1) when was that quote from? 18:57:43 2) Vorpal will literally explode if he uses facebook. <-- duh no. Implode 18:57:45 10.07.10 18:57:52 explode if I use facebook? How silly 18:57:58 After trying to comprehend: 18:58:01 everyone knows it is implosion 18:58:02 `quote MY PHONE 18:58:07 which was said on that day. 18:58:11 (C'mon, HackEgo! You can do it!) 18:58:14 XD 18:58:16 (I know running grep is hard. But c'mon!) 18:58:23 (I know, I know, I blame GNU bloat too.) 18:58:29 `uptime 18:58:35 (But you're on Debian; there's no escape. (Maybe I should port Plash to Flinix.)) 18:58:39 Vorpal: don't give it MORE things to think about! 18:58:50 elliott, uptime shouldn't be complex 18:58:51 162) anmaster gonna give him a birthday bj? IF ONLY I COULD FIND MY PHONE 18:58:51 18:58:27 up 4 days, 22:16, 0 users, load average: 1.55, 1.09, 0.74 18:59:10 elliott, that looks rather like "different contexts" 18:59:26 There were messages in-between :P 18:59:31 elliott, then it is cheating 18:59:39 Yes it is, but Gregor added it and it's his bot. 19:00:11 elliott, I mean, it is similar to finding hidden messages in the bible (or any other large book) 19:00:23 `quote 19:00:24 64) So... copyright doesn't really apply to God. 19:00:35 elliott, I'm sure I could create something amusing by picking lines you said over the years... 19:00:35 Vorpal: to be fair, you were also adding the relevant person's birthday to your phone at the time. 19:00:41 so I think any mocking is perfectly okay 19:00:46 elliott, oh? huh 19:01:23 TO THE LOGS 19:01:25 elliott, also: I use my phone calendar for everything that a calendar is useful for basically. 19:01:34 Vorpal: you never did give him his birthday bj though 19:02:11 elliott, I don't do that kind of stuff :P 19:02:12 `rm bin/d 19:02:13 No output. 19:02:18 elliott, bin/d ? 19:02:19 Vorpal: But you're fine with sodomy? 19:02:27 X-D 19:02:28 d was my script to remove a quote from my "q" file. 19:02:35 It just did grep -v "^$1)" 19:02:40 so I could use the same numbers without refreshing 19:02:46 (with the main quotes file numbers rejiggle if you remove quotes) 19:02:49 elliott, only if it enhances the joke :P 19:02:59 Which is, admittedly, not the best idea, but it's more elegant to implement :P 19:03:13 Vorpal: But you're fine with sodomy? Which is, admittedly, not the best idea, but it's more elegant to implement :P 19:03:15 I prefer Gomorrhing. 19:03:20 see what context (lack of) can do 19:03:26 Vorpal: Not much at all? :P 19:03:37 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:03:38 elliott, indeed it is rather confusing 19:03:39 Sodomy: Definitely elegant. 19:03:57 v1.0/ 20-Mar-2003 22:58 - 19:04:03 That sounds like it could be smaller than 2.6.36! 19:04:08 .1! 19:04:19 It just did grep -v "^$1)" <-- you should use sed's d command 19:04:35 Vorpal: But what if the number had a / in it??? 19:04:40 linux-1.0.tar.bz2 13-Mar-1994 00:00 1.0M 19:04:42 LOL ANACHRONISM 19:04:50 elliott, doesn't it use N? 19:04:56 elliott, rather than R 19:05:01 err 19:05:02 Q 19:05:04 I meant 19:05:07 Vorpal: what 19:05:19 oh, i see what you mean but you're wrong 19:05:22 (Q because, "Rational numbers" starts with a Q) 19:05:24 Vorpal: the whole point is that "60" is always the same line 19:05:35 oh, wait 19:05:37 never mind 19:05:41 i misinterpreted your misinterpretation 19:05:45 elliott, XD 19:05:55 WHAT LINUX 1.0 DIDN'T USE MENUCONFIG HOW SILLY EH 19:06:11 Oh god it's going to prompt me about EVERY DAMN THING. 19:06:16 ifdef CONFIG_M486 19:06:16 CFLAGS := $(CFLAGS) -m486 19:06:16 else 19:06:16 CFLAGS := $(CFLAGS) -m386 19:06:16 endif 19:06:24 elliott, presumably it only started that some time after it became a PITA to not have it 19:06:58 ...Wow. I just measured Flinix's memory usage after a cold boot. 19:07:00 elliott, does it use plain make config? 19:07:06 Used: 1132 19:07:07 Shared: 0 19:07:09 Buffers: 0 19:07:11 (It's all a ramfs :P) 19:07:15 elliott, /proc/meminfo? 19:07:23 elliott, or what 19:07:27 free(1) 19:07:39 TODO: Figure out why /etc/rc isn't working. 19:07:42 * elliott mounts /proc manually 19:07:50 elliott, weird output format for free(1) 19:08:03 Oh, TODO: Use -t for mount in etc/rc... 19:08:06 Vorpal: That was my retyping. 19:08:08 ah 19:08:23 elliott, you could add /proc to fstab 19:08:28 but I guess that would waste space 19:08:32 Vorpal: I don't do mount -a at boot. 19:08:34 elliott, are you using a compressed fs? 19:08:49 Vorpal: Yes and no. It's an initramfs compiled into the kernel, and the kernel is LZMA'd. 19:08:54 ah 19:08:56 So yes on floppy, no in RAM. 19:09:01 It's like 70K anyway :P 19:09:03 elliott, how does it compare to squashfs? 19:09:11 or does squashfs has too much overhead? 19:09:15 Vorpal: How does LZMA compare to anything --> LZMA beats it. 19:09:18 Vorpal: Squashfs probably requires the block layer. 19:09:26 haha 19:09:36 Vorpal: And I would have to have floppy support since you can't embed normal filesystems into the kernel. 19:09:47 Vorpal: Remember, initramfs is literally just a .cpio that gets unpacked into a ramfs in memory :P 19:10:12 Guh, why isn't /proc mounting. 19:10:24 (Also TODO: Figure out how the fuck to use asmutils less :P) 19:10:26 elliott, I suspect squashfs does better at larger images since it is somewhat "smart" with how it represents the FS before it goes to the compression bit. 19:10:42 Vorpal: "smart"er than cpio? 19:10:53 elliott, does cpio do block deduplication? 19:11:05 Vorpal: LZMA does all the deduplication you need :P 19:11:07 sure it isn't useful at small sizes since then the compressing will take care of that 19:11:27 elliott, afaik lzma has a window like most other compression algorithms 19:11:48 Vorpal: Anyway, with squashfs I'd need it to be able to read the floppy to read it. 19:11:48 elliott, which means it won't help if those files end up far from each other in a large (few hundred MB or so) image 19:11:51 And the floppy would need formatting. 19:11:55 elliott, ah 19:11:57 At which point I could just use any filesystem on the floppy and mount it as /. 19:12:12 Vorpal: To have it actually useful, I'd have to have a bloated bootloader which can read filesystems :P 19:12:23 Vorpal: My bootloader = The very core of FreeDOS + LINLD in AUTOEXEC.BAT. 19:12:26 elliott, or why not place it inside the initramfs ;) 19:12:29 (Well, my bootloader will-be.) 19:12:34 Vorpal: Then I don't need an FS :P 19:12:47 elliott, what, that is a waste. Why not just a hand written boot sector 19:13:21 elliott, surely that will be less wasteful 19:13:28 Vorpal: You try loading Linux in 512 bytes :P 19:13:33 It'll be smaller than lilo, probably. 19:13:56 elliott, well you could use another sector or two. Still smaller than DOS + linld probably 19:14:25 elliott, just place the kernel starting in the sector after the bootloader 19:14:36 (and adjust offsets as needed) 19:14:40 Vorpal: Patches welcome. 19:14:55 elliott, well it would not need a patch against linux. Just a hand written boot loader 19:15:15 elliott, what does linux need to load? the kernel image at a specific memory address. Anything else? 19:15:19 Vorpal: Boot sectors welcome. 19:15:34 elliott, I'm not insane enough to write real mode code 19:15:42 Vorpal: i suspect Q is for "quotient" (or whatever the german equivalent is) 19:15:49 quiet_cmd_lzma = LZMA $@ 19:15:49 cmd_lzma = (cat $(filter-out FORCE,$^) | \ 19:15:49 lzma -9 && $(call size_append, $(filter-out FORCE,$^))) > $@ || \ 19:15:49 (rm -f $@ ; false) 19:15:52 I THINK I CAN DO BETTER THAN -9 19:15:57 I have never done so. IIRC you have. Thus you are more likely to succeed at that 19:16:05 hey didn't you write a boot sector some time ago? 19:16:11 WHY DOES LZMA NOT HAVE A --CRAZY 19:16:16 Vorpal: Yes, but it wouldn't load Linux ... 19:16:20 elliott, -9 isn't always best iirc 19:16:28 elliott, for small files especially 19:16:40 I'll bet elliott mounts a case-insensitive filesystem just so he can scream his commands. 19:16:42 try 1-9 both with and without -e 19:16:44 Vorpal: This is lzma not xz fwiw. 19:16:46 Gregor: I DO 19:16:49 elliott, see which one wins 19:16:55 elliott, oh, then that might make a difference 19:17:00 lzma: invalid option -- 'e' 19:17:13 elliott, yeah I don't remember if lzma had the same recommendation 19:17:23 I'll try "xz --format=lzma -9 -e". 19:17:32 System is 536 kB 19:17:34 to beat. 19:18:11 elliott, I wonder what the file system structure of an initramfs looks like in memory. Is it just the cpio loaded as is 19:18:12 System is 670 kB 19:18:16 xz: ultimate failure. 19:18:19 or does it translate it somehow? 19:18:19 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:18:33 elliott, -9 isn't best with xz for small files iirc 19:18:52 Vorpal: It loads it into a shmfs or a ramfs if it doesn't have tha-- oh, look, my kernel grew anyway, it isn't xz's fault. 19:19:32 elliott, also when it comes to 1.0 I doubt it has initramfs, Maaaaaaybe initrd but I would be somewhat surprised at that too 19:20:08 Wow, old Linux config was hateful. It doesn't let you pipe yes to it. 19:20:18 HATEFUL 19:20:23 # This script is used to configure the linux kernel. 19:20:24 # 19:20:24 # It was inspired by the challenge in the original Configure script 19:20:24 # to ``do something better'', combined with the actual need to ``do 19:20:24 # something better'' because the old configure script wasn't flexible 19:20:24 # enough. 19:20:25 elliott, you might be better off with a 2.4 or 2.2 kernel 19:20:26 # 19:20:27 # Please send comments / questions / bug fixes to raymondc@microsoft.com. 19:20:30 # Please send comments / questions / bug fixes to raymondc@microsoft.com. 19:20:32 # Please send comments / questions / bug fixes to raymondc@microsoft.com. 19:20:34 # Please send comments / questions / bug fixes to raymondc@microsoft.com. 19:20:36 :-D 19:20:41 elliott, whaaaaaat 19:20:51 Microsoft: IN BED WITH LINUX, CIRCA 1994. 19:21:00 elliott, you mean it isn't a bad joke? 19:21:04 Nope! 19:21:06 function readln () { 19:21:06 echo -n "$1" 19:21:06 IFS='@' read ans [ -z "$ans" ] && ans=$2 19:21:06 } 19:21:11 OH NO YOU DI'INT 19:21:12 Wait. 19:21:13 Raymondc... 19:21:15 Raymond Chen? 19:21:32 Yes. 19:21:35 elliott, presumably they didn't care if employees worked on such small hobby projects back then. I mean, they weren't really any threat back then 19:21:38 elliott, who is that 19:21:40 It's someone called Raymond Chen and it MIGHT JUST BE THAT RAYMOND CHEN. 19:21:49 Vorpal: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/ 19:22:03 Famous blogger on the awful reasons why Windows is so awful. 19:22:19 elliott, at msdn? 19:22:22 err 19:22:29 Vorpal: Well, he doesn't consider it awful :P 19:22:35 But it's all the gory details of the gory details. 19:23:10 Anyway 19:23:13 IFS='@' read ans Discuss the hateful. 19:23:31 " elliott, :D 19:24:43 elliott, anyway that thing won't have initrd 19:24:49 probably won't 19:24:53 Vorpal: No, but it'll probably be smaller even with floppy support :P 19:25:08 elliott, augh at the top post of http://notch.tumblr.com/ 19:26:18 Vorpal: Will the endless bugs in Minecraft ever be fixed instead of terrible puns being posted to the blog? Notch-ance! 19:26:22 Notch-ance at all. 19:27:52 as86 -0 -a -o boot/bootsect.o boot/bootsect.s 19:27:53 make: as86: Command not found 19:27:57 HATEFUL KERNEL 19:28:01 elliott, I believe the blog host was down for a few hours yesterday or so. It was down with a database error message when I tried at one point 19:28:07 Oh joy, it doesn't look like gas syntax. 19:28:26 elliott, does it look like intel? If so I'm sad. It should use an exotic third option 19:28:35 It looks like AT&T but different :P 19:28:41 elliott, oh yay 19:28:53 elliott, different how? 19:29:06 * Vorpal invents a screwy asm syntax 19:29:12 infix asm! 19:29:16 Description: 16-bit x86 assembler and loader 19:29:16 This is the as86 and ld86 distribution written by Bruce Evans. It's a complete 8086 assembler and loader which can make 32-bit code for the 386+ processors. 19:29:18 thar we go 19:29:23 Vorpal: Numbers start with # :P 19:29:27 elliott, "target mov source" or "source mov target" 19:29:30 which is best 19:29:38 Vorpal: target := source 19:29:39 or 19:29:41 source -> target 19:29:44 elliott, it should use mov 19:29:44 or 19:29:53 sou mov(target) rce 19:29:55 elliott, I want infix asm 19:30:00 consider 19:30:08 e mov(ebx) ax 19:30:14 see how the prefix is neatly separated from the base register 19:30:17 elliott, seriously this is intended to be screwy, obscure and confusing :P 19:30:22 it is not intended to be sane 19:30:23 THAT IS SCREWY, OBSCURE AND CONFUSING 19:30:25 true 19:30:28 hm 19:30:29 e mov(ebx) ax 19:30:30 that's the same as 19:30:32 mov eax, ebx 19:30:33 in intel 19:30:37 or 19:30:38 mov ebx, eax 19:30:40 pick whichever :P 19:30:41 hah 19:30:47 in 16-bit mode you'd do 19:30:51 a mov(bx) x 19:31:04 as -c -o boot/head.o boot/head.s 19:31:04 as: unrecognized option '-c' 19:31:05 elliott, it should use different register names 19:31:05 INFERNAL MACHINE 19:31:06 hm 19:31:25 boot/head.S: Assembler messages: 19:31:25 boot/head.S:64: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `push' 19:31:26 boot/head.S:65: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `popf' 19:31:26 boot/head.S:99: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `pushf' 19:31:27 DIE DIE DIE 19:31:49 Oh, fuck this shit, I'll try Linux 2.0. 19:32:12 (a,b) mov ex 19:32:15 elliott, what about that 19:32:24 for eax to ebx 19:32:37 Vorpal: Yes, except not ex; have an infix operand size modifier. 19:32:48 (a,b) [32] mov 19:32:50 hm 19:33:02 elliott, lets rename the registers 19:33:06 Vorpal: And also have blocks of commands, so that instead of "bits 32", you do: 19:33:10 [32] { ... } 19:33:26 (1,2) [5] mov 19:33:28 OK, Linux 2.0.1, if you're bloated I'll fuck your shit up. 19:33:34 elliott, since 2^5 = 32 19:33:39 Your shit... will be maximally fucked up. 19:33:54 Vorpal: But that's not what the operation does! Instead, that should be 19:33:54 elliott, you aren't persistent enoigh 19:33:57 (1,2) mov 19:33:57 enough* 19:34:02 Vorpal: But "mov ax, bx" would be 19:34:12 (1,2) mov &1111111111111111 19:34:19 Vorpal: Because it modifies only the lower 16 bits. 19:34:22 elliott, :D 19:34:28 elliott, why the &? 19:34:33 what does it signify 19:34:35 Vorpal: Because it's like bitwise and if you squint. 19:35:03 Vorpal: WAIT 19:35:05 ah hm 19:35:09 Vorpal: All numbers should be trinary. 19:35:34 Vorpal: (1,2) mov &10022220020 19:35:35 elliott, there is a fine line between "screwy" and "malbolge86" 19:35:39 I think you just crossed it 19:35:41 Vorpal: Yes. Let's cross it! 19:35:44 PLuggable ASsembler MAcros 19:35:59 elliott, so what about base pointer and indexing? 19:36:14 Vorpal: Those are done as virtual instructions. 19:36:18 elliott, also they should be balanced ternary gray code 19:36:22 for maximum screwiness 19:36:27 Vorpal: For instance, what is, in Intel, "mov [ebx], [eax+2]" 19:36:32 would be, in this, let me think... 19:36:33 Ah yes. 19:36:47 (1,2) incv 19:36:49 (2,1) mov 19:36:54 That is: 19:36:58 you can't have two memory operands in an instruction like that 19:37:07 olsner: Okay, okay, okay, fine. 19:37:10 Vorpal: Okay, this: 19:37:12 mov ebx, [eax+2] 19:37:14 would look like this: 19:37:23 (2,1) incv 19:37:27 (1) deaddrv 19:37:27 elliott, did you just increment eax by two first? 19:37:28 hm 19:37:29 (2,1) mov 19:37:32 Vorpal: VIRTUALLY. 19:37:41 elliott, deaddrv? 19:37:47 Vorpal: "Increment, virtually, register 1, by 2. Deaddress, virtually, register 1. Move register 1 to register 2." 19:37:54 ah 19:37:55 It's (2,1) incv because we do everything in the most illogical order. 19:37:59 elliott, what about: mov eax, [eax+2] 19:38:00 ("incv 2, eax") 19:38:03 (not sure that is valid even) 19:38:12 Vorpal: Easy! 19:38:14 elliott: which kernel version do you have now? 19:38:25 (-1,1) movv 19:38:28 (2,1) incv 19:38:36 wait wait 19:38:36 elliott, whaat? 19:38:42 Vorpal: Let me try that again, all on one line. 19:38:57 Vorpal: of course you can load into a register you use for the address 19:39:01 (-1,1) movv; (2,-1) incv; (-1) deaddrv; (1,-1) mov 19:39:15 olsner, oh damn intel 19:39:16 Vorpal: Registers not part of the architecture work in virtual instructions, since virtual instructions don't actually translate to instructions! 19:39:18 I meant the other way around 19:39:27 SOurce Language Independent Disassembler 19:39:31 Vorpal: So the virtual mapping ends up being: 19:39:32 move eax -> eax+2 19:39:35 is what I meant 19:39:40 Vorpal: Oh. 19:39:49 Vorpal: Well, no, you can't :P 19:39:51 (-1,1) movv; (2,-1) incv; (-1) deaddrv; (1,-1) mov 19:39:53 Dissecting this: 19:39:59 elliott, can you in normal asm? 19:40:00 The movv creates the map {-1 => 1}. 19:40:06 i.e., virtual register -1 is real register 1. 19:40:13 Then the invc turns it into {-1 => 1+2}. 19:40:19 Then the deaddrv turns it into {-1 => [1+2]}. 19:40:26 Then the mov substitutes [1+2] for -1. 19:40:29 heh 19:40:32 Vorpal: no, you can't 19:40:38 but I translated what your snippet means in Intel correctly :P 19:40:39 hmm 19:40:40 elliott, what a pity 19:40:42 "v" is so normal 19:40:46 I have a better idea 19:40:53 virtual instructions use [] instead of () 19:41:00 BUT! 19:41:04 Only on the side that's virtual. 19:41:16 elliott, what about rotating the bits of the register numbers one step for each instruction? 19:41:17 [-1,1) mov; (2,-1] inc; [-1] deaddr; (1,-1] mov 19:41:20 wtf does "virtual" mean? 19:41:28 olsner: simple: the calculation is done by the assembler 19:41:42 olsner: so in this case, it has this idea of an imaginary register, which is first the value of 1, and which it then imaginarily increments 19:41:47 wait 19:41:48 even better 19:41:49 olsner: and it then imaginarily deaddresses it 19:41:57 olsner: so when you use -1, it replaces it with [eax+2] 19:41:57 Language Independent QUerying and Interactive Debugger 19:41:58 rotate it by the hash for the instruction in big endian 19:42:01 or middle endian 19:42:01 Vorpal: no :P 19:42:14 elliott, hey malbolge86 19:42:18 elliott, it would be fitting 19:42:37 oerjan: Creatively Retarded & Addled Computing Kompiler 19:42:57 As opposed to a non-computed "k"ompiler. 19:43:03 Gregor: SHUT UP 19:43:03 *computing ... 19:43:24 YES! LINUX 2.0 HAS MENUCONFIG! 19:43:34 IT'S LIKE AN ORGASM EXCEPT FOR LINUX KERNEL CONFIGURATION AFTER SUFFERING THROUGH "MAKE CONFIG" 19:43:35 elliott: hey you're not keeping to the theme. 19:43:49 oerjan, what theme? 19:43:51 oerjan: crack is the fourth form of matta 19:43:56 elliott: O KAY 19:44:02 elliott: The best way to handle make config is yes '' | make config :P 19:44:04 elliott, I read that as "crack is the forth form of matta" 19:44:08 Gregor: It read from /dev/tty. 19:44:15 as in the programming language forth 19:44:34 *matter 19:44:36 elliott: Sweet! ... rm -f /dev/tty && mkfifo /dev/tty && yes '' > /dev/tty & 19:44:43 elliott: make /dev/tty a symlink to /dev/fd/0 or something :) 19:44:47 Gregor: I approve! (I just hacked the shell script.) 19:44:48 elliott, yes and I read "matta" in Swedish 19:44:52 elliott, since it is a valid Swedish word 19:44:58 oerjan: fine: Pleonasmtastic Lavish Assembler, Stricken Maliciously from Autonomy 19:45:01 at which point I did a retake of the whole thing 19:45:05 Vorpal: i thought it a bit unfair that only gas was a programming acronym 19:45:06 I hereby claim rights to the word "pleonasmtastic". 19:45:10 elliott: i did plasma abova 19:45:15 oerjan, err? 19:45:16 oerjan: SHUT UP, PLEONASMTASTIC 19:45:21 *above 19:45:21 Vorpal: från matta till crack i tre steg! 19:45:25 oerjan, XD 19:45:45 `translate Vorpal: frn matta till crack i tre steg! 19:45:47 Vorpal: Horor matta spricka! 19:45:59 elliott, err? 19:46:02 "Whores carpet crack" X-D 19:46:09 oh uh 19:46:11 Gregor: since when is `translate working again? 19:46:17 Vorpal: From carpet to crack in three steps! 19:46:19 oerjan: Apparently it isn't :P 19:46:21 elliott, "spricka" = "crack in the sense crack in the wall" 19:46:22 Oh, there we go. 19:46:29 elliott, not crack in the sense "drug" 19:46:30 Google wasn't happy with me or something :P 19:46:36 Vorpal: Blame Google 19:46:45 `translateto se If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? 19:46:46 No output. 19:46:51 >_> 19:46:55 Well, I tried :P 19:46:59 elliott, also other errors in it 19:47:10 │ │ [*] Compile kernel as ELF - if your GCC is ELF-GCC │ │ 19:47:10 │ The gcc version 2.7.0 and newer produces the new ELF binary format │ 19:47:11 │ as default. If you have such a compiler (try "gcc -v"), say Y │ 19:47:11 │ here, otherwise N. │ 19:47:35 2.0 has initrd! yaaaay 19:47:35 elliott, that was wider than my IRC window and totally unreadable 19:47:49 Vorpal: You're totally unreadable. 19:47:50 elliott, isn't initrd just gzip-compressed ramfs? 19:47:51 elliott: maybe you should get a pre-2.7 gcc then :) 19:47:51 (Mine too!) 19:47:57 olsner: Maybe fuck you :P 19:47:59 elliott, that is what your mum said 19:48:04 * Gregor wonders why translateto-se didn't work ... 19:48:08 `translateto es If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? 19:48:09 elliott, both of those lines 19:48:10 No output. 19:48:13 >_> 19:49:31 cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-m386" 19:49:48 cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-m486" 19:50:02 elliott, ah easy 19:50:10 elliott, -mcpu iirc 19:50:14 elliott, old name for that 19:50:18 elliott, or -march 19:50:20 not sure which 19:50:31 `translateto se rug 19:50:32 No output. 19:50:54 Oh boy, errors galore :P 19:51:06 oh wait 19:51:10 `translateto sv rug 19:51:11 tillbaka 19:51:26 Fuck this shit :P 19:51:27 what? 19:51:27 ...right language, but completely wrong translation :D 19:51:33 oerjan: matta 19:51:34 indeed 19:51:35 `translate to no rugged 19:51:38 to no rugged 19:51:40 olsner: i know that :D 19:51:44 `translateto no rugged 19:51:46 robuste 19:51:52 oerjan: no you don't you're a hopeless... nord? 19:51:54 swede 19:51:54 nord 19:51:58 nord...ic...er? 19:52:01 I CONFUSE 19:52:07 ... 19:52:11 elliott, "norwegian"? 19:52:22 Now. 19:52:23 *Norw. 19:52:25 so I guess "norw" 19:52:28 WTF, I'm using the web-services API now :P 19:52:29 olsner: i was just trying that because i knew the translation should have no special characters 19:52:30 which is just silly 19:52:32 IT CAN'T FAIL 19:52:39 `translateto sv love 19:52:40 No output. 19:52:51 ...while that does 19:52:56 `translateto sv rug 19:52:57 tillbaka 19:53:04 yeah wtf 19:53:05 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="What the fuck?" --data-urlencode langpair=en|se 19:53:06 No output. 19:53:09 `translateto sv Swedish 19:53:11 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="What the fuck?" --data-urlencode langpair='en|se' 19:53:12 Gregor: 2>&1 19:53:13 Swedish 19:53:13 {"responseData": null, "responseDetails": "invalid translation language pair", "responseStatus": 400} 19:53:17 `translateto sv one three four 19:53:19 en tre fyra 19:53:20 ...what? 19:53:24 Did Gregor change anything there? 19:53:26 oerjan, huh that worked 19:53:26 `translateto sv one two three four 19:53:27 No output. 19:53:30 Did Gregor change anything there? 19:53:36 `translateto sv unix eunuchs 19:53:37 unix eunuchs 19:53:43 Vorpal: yes, i carefully skipped two to avoid the å 19:53:58 One, three, four, seven, twenty-nine. 19:54:01 `translateto sv love 19:54:02 No output. 19:54:13 Gregor: the language is sv even though the country is se 19:54:13 oerjan, oh you mean it fails on åäö in either input or output? 19:54:14 Gregor: i believer `translateto sv still has problem with æøå output 19:54:22 *äöå 19:54:27 oerjan, äöå * 19:54:32 ...darn :D 19:54:39 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="What the fuck?" --data-urlencode langpair='auto|sv' 19:54:40 {"responseData": null, "responseDetails": "invalid translation language pair", "responseStatus": 400} 19:54:54 *believe 19:54:56 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="What the fuck?" --data-urlencode langpair='auto|es' 19:54:56 oerjan, also bachgfj... is the nautural order to write the letters of the alphabet in :P 19:54:57 {"responseData": null, "responseDetails": "invalid translation language pair", "responseStatus": 400} 19:55:01 >_< 19:55:07 698848 19:55:10 Vorpal: YOU DON'T SAY 19:55:24 bachgfj what :D 19:56:02 elliott, he wrote äöå. Listing a series of letters of the alphabet you normally do in alphabetic order. Out of habit and convenience I guess. 19:56:05 elliott, he didn't :P 19:56:29 elliott, so åäö would be much more natural 19:56:51 abcdefz and that's all the letters 19:57:13 elliott, no.... dzfecab 19:57:21 elliott, do try to get it right 19:57:26 you can't write "fecal" with those 19:57:35 elliott, same as you listed :P 19:57:43 What? 19:57:53 Vorpal: the order is æøå in norwegian 19:57:54 abcdefz and that's all the letters elliott, no.... dzfecab <-- that is just a different permutation 19:57:58 oerjan, oh, huh 19:58:13 Vorpal: no you did yours wrong 19:58:33 elliott, oh? 19:58:37 yes. 19:58:45 elliott, what letters differ 19:59:21 all letters 19:59:32 elliott, no... you have a-f+z So do I 19:59:45 elliott, you just wrote your list in a different (and very incorrect) order 19:59:48 Vorpal: you are a liar 19:59:51 stop lying 19:59:58 Gregor: in any case `translateto sv _is_ working sometimes 20:00:06 So weird 20:00:14 `translateto sv something 20:00:15 Gregor, it fails at unicode it seems? 20:00:18 No output. 20:00:33 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="one three" --data-urlencode langpair='auto|es' 20:00:35 {"responseData": null, "responseDetails": "invalid translation language pair", "responseStatus": 400} 20:00:37 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="What the fuck?" --data-urlencode langpair='en|es' 20:00:38 {"responseData": {"translatedText":"¿Qué carajo?"}, "responseDetails": null, "responseStatus": 200} 20:00:40 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="one three" --data-urlencode langpair='auto|sv' 20:00:41 {"responseData": null, "responseDetails": "invalid translation language pair", "responseStatus": 400} 20:00:42 Gregor: and the times it didn't work afaict were precisely the times when the output would contain å ä or ö 20:00:47 SWAG ON FIRE 20:00:47 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="one three" --data-urlencode langpair='en|sv' 20:00:48 {"responseData": {"translatedText":"en tre"}, "responseDetails": null, "responseStatus": 200} 20:00:54 `run curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate --data-urlencode v=1.0 --data-urlencode q="one two three" --data-urlencode langpair='en|sv' 20:00:55 {"responseData": {"translatedText":"en två tre"}, "responseDetails": null, "responseStatus": 200} 20:01:09 Gregor, so unicode failure 20:01:14 Phantom_Hoover_: something = något in swedish, so confirms the theory 20:01:25 `translateto sv en två tree 20:01:26 No output. 20:01:28 err 20:01:33 `translateto sv one two three 20:01:34 No output. 20:01:36 yeah 20:01:48 Gregor, what do you do to fail so badly on unicode? 20:02:00 `translateto no something 20:02:01 noe 20:02:07 Vorpal: Note how it worked fine in the above lines. 20:02:20 Gregor, only in those that I ran curl with 20:02:28 Gregor: hm indeed 20:02:29 │ │ [*] Support Intel processors │ │ 20:02:30 │ │ [*] Support AMD processors │ │ 20:02:30 Gregor, the script fails when it encounters unicode 20:02:33 do you actually need these? 20:02:42 elliott, I believe so? 20:02:51 are you suuuuuuuuure? 20:02:51 elliott, it probably checks cpuid 20:02:55 `translateto en Hello, world! 20:02:56 Hello, world! 20:02:57 elliott, check the code for what it does 20:03:02 Vorpal: no thanks :-P 20:03:09 `run cat bin/json | paste 20:03:10 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.178 20:03:17 Gregor, this just confirms the theory that it fails at anything containing unicode in the string 20:03:37 Vorpal: If it's failing for that reason, then it's Python's json module, which seems extraordinarily unlikely to me. 20:03:40 hmm qemu has ISA support right? 20:03:40 as in 20:03:43 `run python --version | tr $'\n' '|' 20:03:44 ISA VGA, ISA network card 20:03:46 No output. 20:03:46 with some options 20:03:47 right? 20:03:49 huh 20:03:56 Vorpal: If it's failing for that reason, then it's Python's json module, which seems extraordinarily unlikely to me. 20:03:59 `run /usr/bin/env python --version | tr $'\n' '-' 20:04:00 Gregor: Did you do .decode('utf8')? 20:04:02 No output. 20:04:07 `run /usr/bin/env python --version 2>&1 | tr $'\n' '-' 20:04:07 `run python --version 20:04:09 Python 2.7- 20:04:12 elliott: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.178 20:04:12 No output. 20:04:15 You don't need to do that tr... 20:04:17 ah 2>&1 20:04:18 hm 20:04:24 elliott, well I thought it was multi-line 20:04:25 Gregor: FAIL LOLZ 20:04:32 elliott: I have no idea how to Python. 20:04:43 elliott: These are basically the only lines of Python I have ever written. 20:04:43 Gregor: What is the filename? 20:04:49 elliott: stdin 20:04:55 Oh :P 20:04:57 elliott: bin/json 20:05:07 `run grep json.loads bin/json 20:05:09 data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read()) 20:05:22 Gregor, what is argv[1] in print(eval(sys.argv[1])) 20:05:24 elliott: ... you realize that's the same thing I just pasted at you, right ... 20:05:42 Vorpal: data["responseData"]["translatedText"] 20:05:54 `run sed -i "s/sys.stdin.read()/sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')/g" bin/json 20:05:55 No output. 20:05:57 Gregor, so... what if it contains unicode? Could it be that it fails at that 20:06:01 Someone try it now. 20:06:08 Vorpal: No, that should be OK. 20:06:08 `translateto sv en två 20:06:09 No output. 20:06:13 `translateto sv If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? 20:06:13 Although actually... 20:06:14 No output. 20:06:15 `translateto sv one two 20:06:17 Lemme fix. 20:06:17 Stop. 20:06:18 `cat bin/json 20:06:19 No output. 20:06:19 Stop. lemme fix. 20:06:20 #!/usr/bin/env python \ import json \ import sys \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ print(eval(sys.argv[1])) 20:06:32 `run sed -i "s/sys.argv[1]/sys.argv[1].decode('utf-8')/g" bin/json 20:06:33 No output. 20:06:35 `translateto sv en två 20:06:37 No output. 20:06:41 `translateto sv If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? 20:06:42 No output. 20:06:42 elliott, wrong direction 20:06:45 `translateto sv one two 20:06:46 elliott: There is no Unicode in the arg. 20:06:48 Vorpal: I copied *your* line. 20:06:49 No output. 20:06:53 Gregor: Worth trying :P 20:06:53 elliott, yes I typoed :P 20:06:57 wait. 20:06:58 `translateto sv one three 20:07:03 hm 20:07:03 en tre 20:07:03 Gregor: You are total fail at thinking print is a function to start with :P 20:07:07 Gregor: OK: Could the result of eval be unicode? 20:07:15 elliott: I - do - not - know - Python 20:07:17 I say "yes, yes it could". 20:07:20 elliott: Quite easily. 20:07:23 I will now rewrite this. 20:07:32 `run echo '#!/usr/bin/env python' >bin/json 20:07:33 No output. 20:07:39 lawl 20:07:45 `run echo 'import sys' >>bin/json; echo 'import json' >>bin/json 20:07:46 No output. 20:07:52 Not a fan of echo -e eh :P 20:07:59 I'm old sk00l 20:08:02 *sk00l. 20:08:15 `run echo "data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8'))" >>bin/json 20:08:17 No output. 20:08:22 you could use $'' instead 20:08:26 `run echo "print eval(sys.argv[1]).encode('utf-8')" >>bin/json 20:08:28 No output. 20:08:28 Vorpal: But I don't want to. 20:08:30 $'foo\nbar' 20:08:33 `translateto sv one two 20:08:34 en två 20:08:42 There, now where's my birthday bj. 20:08:56 elliott, dj* 20:09:04 That is also acceptable. 20:09:07 `translateto sv If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? 20:09:08 Om jag sa att du hade en vacker kropp, skulle du hålla det emot mig? 20:09:13 `translateto ch If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? 20:09:16 No output. 20:09:18 >_> 20:09:21 Gregor: BTW, I hereby release the code I've written under the Give Elliott All Your Sperm Public License, version 1 or later. 20:09:21 `translateto zh If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? 20:09:22 `translateto en en två tree 20:09:24 如果我说你有一个美丽的身体，你会嫌弃我吗？ 20:09:24 `translateto en en två tre 20:09:25 one two tree 20:09:28 ah 20:09:28 one two three 20:09:35 Gregor: Did I mention it's viral? (Kinda like my sperm, but I digress.) 20:09:36 tree is not tree 20:09:44 it is just a non-existent word 20:09:46 `translateto zh If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? I am no longer infected. 20:09:47 如果我说你有一个美丽的身体，你会嫌弃我吗？我不再感染。 20:09:52 `translateto sv If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? 20:09:55 Om jag sa att du hade en vacker kropp, skulle du hålla det emot mig? 20:09:57 `translateto jp RAPE 20:09:59 `translateto en att vara eller inte vara, det är frågan 20:10:01 `translate 如果我说你有一个美丽的身体，你会嫌弃我吗？我不再感染。 20:10:01 No output. 20:10:06 Clearly, the Japanese have no word for rape. 20:10:06 to be or not be, that is the question 20:10:06 lawl :P 20:10:06 If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold anything against me? I am no longer infected. 20:10:08 Gregor: heh sadly the swedish translation fails to preserve the ambiguity solely because because of pronoun gender 20:10:12 `translateto jp RAPE 20:10:15 No output. 20:10:19 See? 20:10:21 Facts. 20:10:21 oerjan: :P 20:10:23 o 20:10:27 `translateto jp everyone is green 20:10:28 ais523: okokoko 20:10:28 No output. 20:10:36 Wait, the language code isn't jp, is it. 20:10:36 :p 20:10:38 elliott: o 20:10:44 see, randomly oing is spreading from channel to channel 20:10:44 ais523: okokokokokokokokokoko 20:10:49 Gregor: heh sadly the swedish translation fails to preserve the ambiguity solely because because of pronoun gender <-- which ambiguity? 20:11:06 Faillawls 20:11:15 Vorpal: of "If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?" 20:11:17 Vorpal: you completely fail 20:11:24 i think Vorpal has actually missed the ambiguity 20:11:26 oh right 20:11:27 constantly :D 20:11:30 suuure 20:11:31 `translateto zh Nethack stole my gender. 20:11:32 偷走了我的性别的nethack。 20:11:34 I never realised you could read it *THAT* way 20:11:34 `translateto zh Nethack stole my gender in space. 20:11:36 在太空中的nethack偷走了我的性别。 20:11:40 `translateto zh Nethack stole my gender in space in space. 20:11:41 在太空中的nethack偷走了我的性别空间。 20:11:44 `translateto zh Nethack stole my gender in space in space in space in space in space in space. 20:11:46 在太空中的nethack偷走了我的性别空间在空间空间在空间的空间。 20:11:47 the two meanings turn the "it" into "den" or "det" in swedish respectively 20:11:51 `translateto zh Nethack stole my gender in space in space in space in space in space in space. in space. 20:11:52 在太空中的nethack偷走了我的性别空间在空间空间在空间的空间。在太空中。 20:12:00 `translateto zh This channel is now under the control of red China. Please continue your esoteric activities unperturbed. 20:12:01 该通道目前正在红色中国的控制权。请继续深奥的活动不受干扰。 20:12:11 elliott, I always thought it was the non-physical meaning. And found that line somewhat strange. 20:12:16 `translateto sv bork bork bork 20:12:19 -!- Gregor has set topic: 该通道目前正在红色中国的控制权。请继续深奥的活动不受干扰。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 20:12:20 No output. 20:12:28 LIES 20:12:30 heheheh 20:12:35 mwahaha 20:12:35 `translatefromto sv en bork bork bork 20:12:36 Bork Bork Bork 20:12:42 that's better 20:12:42 X-D 20:12:49 elliott, it means nothing in Swedish either :P 20:12:57 Vorpal: It means all your words! 20:12:59 `swedish The coyote is a living, breathing allegory of Want. He is always hungry. He is always poor, out of luck, and friendless. The meanest creatures despise him, and even the fleas would desert him for a velocipede. He is so spirtless and cowardly that even while his exposed teeth are pretending a threat, the rest of his face is apologizing for it. And he is so homely! -so scrawny, and 20:12:59 ribby, and coarse-haired, and pitiful. 20:13:00 Zee cuyute-a is a leefing, breetheeng ellegury ooff Vunt. He-a is elveys hoongry. He-a is elveys puur, oooot ooff loock, und freeundless. Zee meunest creetoores despeese-a heem, und ifee zee flees vuoold desert heem fur a feluceepede-a. He-a is su speertless und cooerdly thet ifee vheele-a hees ixpused teet ere-a pretundeeng 20:13:01 You have no other words. 20:13:12 `translate 该通道目前正在红色中国的控制权。请继续深奥的活动不受干扰。 elliott: HALP 20:13:13 The channel is currently being Red China's control. Please continue to esoteric activities without interference. elliott: HALP 20:13:26 Gregor: I will pay you $money if you make "`translateto sv ..." redirect to bin/swedish. 20:13:30 elliott, jaha, det få du väla tro då 20:13:40 (writing on dialect is always fun) 20:13:45 (it confuses google translate) 20:13:58 ... I just accidentally typed www.redchina.com while trying to type www.foxnews.com (<-- to test a crashbug) 20:14:08 Gregor: Why would you ever type www.foxnews.com. 20:14:10 But X-D 20:14:17 elliott: to test a crashbug 20:14:29 ais523: a crashbug on foxnews.com is known as a feature 20:14:30 Vorpal, how much lightstone do you have stockpiled? 20:14:46 elliott: *crashfeature 20:14:51 not really, no input should crash a browser, whether malicious /or/ incompetent 20:14:59 Phantom_Hoover_, one left. That is all unless I have some I somewhere I forgot. 20:15:01 I'm afraid I mistook the one in the throne room for dirt and broke it. 20:15:11 Phantom_Hoover_, you fix that. Somehow 20:15:19 I'd repay you, but you're much richer than me anyway. 20:15:29 How about preferential defence by the ROU? 20:15:31 Phantom_Hoover_, get one from the admin. And even if it was dirt why would you break it in my place 20:15:39 Phantom_Hoover_, should I go around breaking stuff at your place 20:15:58 Phantom_Hoover_, I accept nothing but a lightstone as repayment 20:16:08 I take it lightstones are rare? 20:16:10 Phantom_Hoover_, you have to get one from the admin 20:16:22 Vorpal, for now, I have replaced it with a block of dirt. 20:16:27 ais523, you can't get them in the normal way in multi-player 20:16:29 I hope the difference is not too apparent. 20:16:40 Phantom_Hoover_, it is very. I use painterly and they are hugely different 20:16:54 Phantom_Hoover_, so as soon as you see the server admin. Get him to give you one block and replace it 20:17:05 Wow, an ISA kernel is much smaller! 20:17:08 ais523, basically missing feature in multiplayer (no "nether" dimension) 20:17:16 Vorpal, I use painterly! 20:17:23 Phantom_Hoover_, custom painterly? 20:17:23 That's why I confused them! 20:17:27 Yes. 20:17:32 Phantom_Hoover_, not the same custom as me 20:17:36 obviously 20:17:43 Phantom_Hoover_, or maybe you use a monochrome monitor 20:17:55 Phantom_Hoover_, anyway, why did you break it at all. Seriously 20:18:06 Phantom_Hoover_, even if it HAD been dirt that would be rather rude 20:18:26 It's dirt! 20:18:33 Phantom_Hoover_, and? 20:18:38 It's what, the second most common block type! 20:18:44 Phantom_Hoover_, I'll go to your place and remove all dirt then? 20:18:47 Phantom_Hoover_, no? 20:18:48 Most common. imo. 20:18:55 1 dirt != 1,000,000,000,000 dirt 20:18:56 elliott, stone is far more common 20:18:56 elliott, cobble. 20:19:04 maaaybe 20:19:49 elliott, also what about removing one dirt placed in a clearly highly ornamental place. Like in the middle of a stone wall with 4 torches around in a pattern? Except it was lightstone 20:20:25 how does one list the types of NIC qemu will emulate? 20:20:29 i don't have all the ones in the manpage 20:20:30 Phantom_Hoover_, anyway I expect you fix this. The place is ruined without a lightstone there. 20:22:08 Phantom_Hoover_, also if you insist on go about digging in other people's places I guess I could either do that at your place too: "but in my texture pack the glass looked like dirt", eh? 20:22:23 Phantom_Hoover_, or I could just brick it all up and make a maze of tunnels 20:22:34 (that don't actually connect anywhere 20:22:35 ) 20:22:39 Jesus, I apologised. 20:22:57 Phantom_Hoover_, right, I realise you can't get a replacement right away. But as soon as you see the server I expect you to get one 20:23:31 What if serv says no. 20:23:38 Just throwin' that out there. 20:24:14 elliott, I'll decide if that happens 20:24:23 Decide... what? 20:24:47 probably going to request a gold block replacement instead or such then. Which will not look very good. Since it doesn't give off light it wouldn't really work 20:25:05 elliott, besides he said before he was willing to give lightstone if you asked and had an use for it 20:25:15 and making a sun-like symbol is definitely a use 20:25:38 (I would have made a bigger one if i had more lightstone) 20:28:19 Phantom_Hoover_, just logged in to check. 1) very different colour. 2) dirt isn't an acceptable replacement. A gold block would be until you can get a lightstone (you would get the gold block back) 20:29:26 Would diamond not do? 20:33:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:33:40 -!- augur has joined. 20:34:36 `translateto cy No one actually speaks Welsh. 20:34:38 Does neb yn siarad Cymraeg mewn gwirionedd. 20:34:53 Wow, that is some poor compression ratio. 20:35:01 Cymraeg 20:35:05 i know that word 20:35:17 sometimes i get a Welsh newsletter 20:35:21 I believe that's Welsh for Welsh :P 20:35:23 welsh, i think 20:35:27 :D 20:35:31 `translate Cymraeg 20:35:32 Cymraeg 20:35:36 and it's so amusing that i woudn't dare to sign off 20:35:37 >_< 20:35:39 `translatefromto cy en Cymraeg 20:35:42 Welsh 20:36:04 welsh is from outer space 20:36:05 seems like would have been inferrable... 20:36:10 like hungarian and finnish 20:36:42 `translateto fi The Moon people of Finland welcome our Human comrades. 20:36:43 Kuu Suomen kansa tervetulleiksi Human toverit. 20:37:17 sounds alien 20:37:21 "Moon Finnish people welcome 'Human' comrades." 20:38:01 Where "welcome" is nounified, not as a verb. 20:38:12 księżycowi ludzie z Polski witają ludzi - naszych przyjaciół 20:38:18 uh 20:38:24 that looks alien as well 20:38:30 like: jak tak to mi sie nie chce 20:38:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:39:59 /proc apparently costs 67K. Ouch... 20:40:55 Trying: PCI=mmconfig. 20:41:38 -!- goneriku has joined. 20:41:51 http://git-annex.branchable.com/ http://git-annex.branchable.com/walkthrough/ 20:41:52 this is awesome 20:43:45 elliott: get tinywm 20:43:52 it's only 50 LOC in C 20:44:03 nooga: I know what tinywm is. 20:44:54 will you use xterm or something else? 20:45:44 nooga: rxvt, or something else if that's too big. Maybe st. 20:45:49 mmconfig WINS in size!! Now to try BIOS. 20:47:18 BIOS loses :( 20:47:27 Now to try any for gits and shiggles. 20:48:16 run X, reelase 20:51:45 nooga: find me a smallX tarball and i will 20:51:47 tux.org seems to not have it any more 20:53:45 Gregor: It's Welsh for the Welsh language, yes. 20:54:16 And who did that Chinese in the topic? 20:54:20 pikhq: We already verified that. 20:54:23 pikhq: Google Translate X-P 20:54:31 I hates simplified! 20:54:35 It's so much harder to read! 20:54:51 pikhq: Red China uses simplified :P 20:55:07 elliott: Your point? It's hard! 20:55:15 `translate zh-TW The glorious Republic of China shall reclaim this topic some day! 20:55:17 zh-TW The glorious Republic of China shall reclaim this topic some day! 20:55:23 Wrong :P 20:55:25 `translateto zh-TW The glorious Republic of China shall reclaim this topic some day! 20:55:27 光榮 Republic of中國應收回這個主題的一些日子！ 20:55:32 wtfbbq 20:55:56 You'd think that Google Translate would know what "Republic of China" is in traditional Chinese ... 20:56:17 Try "中華民國" instead of "中國". 20:56:45 The rest *looks* correct, but I can't say for sure, not being a speaker of a Chinese language. 20:56:56 `translateto zh-TW The glorious 中華民國 shall reclaim this topic some day! 20:57:00 The glorious 中華民國 shall reclaim this topic some day! 20:57:04 DAMN IT 20:57:09 `translatefromto en zh-TW The glorious 中華民國 shall reclaim this topic some day! 20:57:11 光榮的中華民國應收回這個主題的一些日子！ 20:57:30 Oh, duh, it did omit the 的. 20:57:30 -!- Gregor has set topic: 该通道目前正在红色中国的控制权。请继续深奥的活动不受干扰。 | 光榮的中華民國應收回這個主題的一些日子！ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 20:58:03 * pikhq cannot speak Chinese, but *has* communicated in a Chinese/Japanese pidgin before! 20:58:33 Chinese Japanese pidgin 20:58:35 ? 20:59:13 -!- xvedejas has joined. 20:59:16 nooga: if you could find a mirror of tux.org ftp that's work 20:59:20 hey Slereah 20:59:25 goneriku: Yeah. 20:59:32 Explain? 20:59:37 * goneriku likes linguistics 20:59:37 and goneriku 20:59:57 I wish I could read the topic but my Mandarin isn't good enough yet :\ 21:00:23 also it seems to be a mix of traditional and simplified 21:00:49 apparently it's Google Translate shit 21:00:51 or at least just traditional 21:00:54 hmm 21:01:00 Slereah: you brought these people, didn't you 21:01:06 goneriku: He spoke Mandarin, I speak Japanese, he didn't speak English well at all. So I wrote using sentences using my very very minimal knowledge of Chinese grammar and words in Japanese that are from Chinese. 21:01:11 Slereah: YOU BROUGHT THESE PEOPLE HERE 21:01:17 goneriku: It certainly worked. 21:01:25 elliott, I came on my own accord 21:01:26 ah, cool 21:01:31 xvedejas: Oh. 21:01:34 Well I blame Slereah for goneriku. 21:01:35 I don't know really know any Chinese or Japanese. 21:01:37 X-D 21:01:43 Also racism. 21:01:48 All of these things are Slereah's fault. 21:01:49 elliott, I'm an actual programmer 21:01:50 `translate 该通道目前正在红色中国的控制权。请继续深奥的活动不受干扰。 21:01:51 The channel is currently being Red China's control. Please continue to esoteric activities without interference. 21:01:58 `translate 光榮的中華民國應收回這個主題的一些日子！ 21:02:00 Glorious Republic of China should recover some of this theme day! 21:02:04 heh 21:02:07 Wow, bad translation X-D 21:02:12 Sler's pretty racist that's true 21:02:14 xvedejas: Sorry, this channel is about esoterica and magick! 21:02:18 (Note: Lies.) 21:02:19 you should hear his rants about jews 21:02:23 lol 21:02:25 He's secretly a jew. 21:02:30 my favorite programming language is Smalltalk, some consider it sorta esoteric... :P 21:02:32 aw man I was about to say I'd fit in just fine here! 21:02:37 (I know, that's the lolarious part!) 21:02:38 `translateto iw Happy Hanukkah, gentiles! 21:02:38 xvedejas: Protip: Ignore Sgeo. 21:02:39 חנוכה שמח, הגויים! 21:02:46 `translateto hw kike 21:02:48 No output. 21:02:50 smalltalk is about as esoteric as javascript, isn't it? 21:02:52 Google Censor 21:02:56 ignore who? 21:03:00 olsner: Substantially more so. 21:03:02 xvedejas: This guy. 21:03:02 I don't see any sgeo 21:03:07 You don't yet :P 21:03:09 -!- Gregor has set topic: 该通道目前正在红色中国的控制权。请继续深奥的活动不受干扰。 | 光榮的中華民國應收回這個主題的一些日子！ | חנוכה שמח, הגויים! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 21:03:16 olsner: Gregor does JS stuff for an academiliving. 21:03:21 (If you can call that living) 21:03:25 -!- goneriku has changed nick to gon|away. 21:03:30 -!- augur has joined. 21:03:31 So take his opinion with a grain of badly-scoped salt :P 21:03:37 olsner, I don't really know anything about javascript 21:03:38 elliott: Dude, I browse porn sites for SCIENCE. 21:03:47 * gon|away does too 21:03:51 `quote scientific reason 21:03:52 No output. 21:03:56 `quote scientific justifi 21:03:57 No output. 21:03:59 `quote porn 21:04:00 33) pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. ehird: consider low-gravity porn fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 77) SF.net porn :/ Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page? \ 134) I am an inherently pornographic being. \ 156) reading playboy for 21:04:02 `quote scientifically-justifiable 21:04:03 elliott: I mean to imply that smalltalk is not the least bit esoteric 21:04:06 235) "* There is no scientifically-justifiable reason to exclude pornography, which is a vital part of the web ecosystem. However, bear in mind that we're tracing JavaScript, not MPEG and JPEG decoding." ^^^ This bullet-point is my crowning achievement as as a scientist. 21:04:06 `run quote porn | tail -1 21:04:09 235) "* There is no scientifically-justifiable reason to exclude pornography, which is a vital part of the web ecosystem. However, bear in mind that we're tracing JavaScript, not MPEG and JPEG decoding." ^^^ This bullet-point is my crowning achievement as as a scientist. 21:04:11 Gregor: But you EXCLUDED it! 21:04:11 Gregor: ゴジラが来てる！死にたくないよ！ 21:04:17 Gregor: No?? 21:04:19 (If you can call that living) <-- still MS Research? 21:04:23 elliott: I did NOT exclude it. I EXPLICITLY did not exclude it. 21:04:24 Vorpal: ...XD 21:04:31 Vorpal: Yes. Gregor still works at MS Research. 21:04:34 Gregor: Don't you. 21:04:38 elliott: No. 21:04:47 Gregor: Wrong! The answer is: Yes. 21:05:02 I'm confused 21:05:08 xvedejas: We're all confused :P 21:05:27 and confusing 21:05:40 Yes. 21:05:43 xvedejas, only under confusing circumstances 21:05:58 nooga: If you find a tux.org mirror I will be happy forever. 21:05:59 (or in case of jelly) 21:06:06 I started writing some smalltalk tutorials on a friend's blog, if anyone is interested: http://hackeryblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/learn-programming-with-smalltalk-part-1.html 21:06:15 xvedejas: Also, ignore Vorpal, we just haven't figured out a justification for kicking him out yet. 21:06:24 elliott, hey you 21:06:25 But our crack team of crackheads is working on it as we speak. 21:06:30 `translate ゴジラが来てる！死にたくないよ！ 21:06:31 I'm Godzilla coming! I want to die! 21:06:33 hm 21:06:37 Gregor: what X-D 21:06:45 I'm -- Godzilla! -- coming! I want to die! 21:06:47 elliott: pikhq told me that :P 21:06:52 pikhq: what. 21:07:06 Gregor: "Godzilla is coming! I don't want to die!" 21:07:18 pikhq: I prefer Google's version. 21:07:24 Oh! Godzilla! Don't stop! I'm coming! I want to die! 21:07:27 It... Reversed the negative somehow. 21:07:31 [[TINY Linux -- " 'Tis Independence 'N Yet "]] 21:07:33 WORST ACRONYM EVER 21:07:43 That's fairly impressive, actually. 21:07:45 YESSS I THINK I'VE FOUND SMALLX 21:08:26 pikhq: Suuure. 21:08:28 -!- olsner has set topic: 该通道目前正在红色中国的控制权。请继续深奥的活动不受干扰。 | 光榮的中華民國應收回這個主題的一些日子！ | חנוכה שמח, הגויים! | sed อยู่เสมอดีกว่า Perl! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 21:08:30 pikhq: Hey, XFree86 had small servers. 21:08:31 pikhq: You're not sexually attracted to Godzilla. 21:08:34 [ ]xvg16.zip05-Dec-1999 17:34 740K 21:08:41 pikhq: You're not sexually attracted to Godzilla at all. 21:08:43 Gregor: Only to Mothra. 21:08:44 pikhq: Whatever you say. 21:08:47 X-D 21:08:49 Gregor: That's like saying Vorpal's not attracted to children! 21:08:53 elliott: Y'know, kdrive ain't big :P 21:09:07 Gregor: How big is a 16-colour VGA KDrive? You know, approximately. 21:09:16 Roughly unsupported size? 21:09:25 elliott: Centibits. 21:09:25 Gregor: Fine, what's the smallest KDrive? 21:09:30 vesa, probably. 21:09:37 elliott, ... Only if they carry a magnet (I'm magnetic) 21:09:42 Gregor: If it doesn't fit, LZMA-compressed, on a floppy minus 614K, I can't use it. 21:09:58 Gregor: I could fit that VGA16 X server on. :P 21:10:02 LZMA-compressed ... the server itself would probably fit, not sure about all the client libraries. 21:10:21 Gregor: I need libX11 and that's all. (Advantage of smallX: it has its own, tiny Xlib.) 21:10:28 Mmm 21:10:32 Gregor: Also, I need *some* kind of room left to put rxvt or whatever in :P 21:11:21 elliott, couldn't you format the floppy as higher capacity than it really is? 21:11:32 I seem to remember this being possible (but really really stupid) 21:11:35 Vorpal: (1) Not reliably. (2) I refuse to. 21:12:02 elliott, I wonder where you could find a 2.whatever MB floppy 21:12:09 I formatted a floppy at a lower capacity once, unfortunately my special floppy-massage program didn't support the higher original capacity :/ 21:12:20 elliott: Heh, so kdrive has enough requirements that that'd probably not work :P 21:12:27 olsner, "floppy-massage"? 21:12:30 IBM used to ship their operating systems on 2.88MB disks 21:12:32 Gregor: Oh, and building KDrive has the distinct disadvantage that what the fuck modularised X's build system it is insane and horrible. 21:12:39 Vorpal: *formatting then 21:12:45 <3 modular X build system 21:12:48 olsner, ah 21:12:58 what window managers do you all use? 21:13:05 right now I'm on AwesomeWM 21:13:16 I use metacity because Kitten isn't done yet. :p 21:13:18 uh, metacity atm. 21:13:22 <3 modular X build system 21:13:25 Have you ever used it? 21:13:27 It is awful :P 21:13:30 elliott: Extensively. 21:13:31 it's autocrap, isn't it? 21:13:36 elliott: I've also used what came before. 21:13:36 olsner: No, worse. 21:13:38 Extensively. 21:13:43 Gregor, *imake*? 21:13:44 olsner: Yes, it's autotools, which is why it's so good. 21:13:45 oh the horror 21:13:51 Gregor: lol 21:14:00 Gregor, imake was one of the worst ones I ever seen 21:14:10 Gregor: autotools is great if you never want to CONFIGURE anything. 21:14:28 Vorpal: Yeah, imake was ... bad. I've built X11R6 (as in, the real X11R6) on HP-UX. Autotooled X = godsend. 21:14:51 elliott, autotools actually get the shit done. And works when you need to do something a bit unusual. What is your suggestion instead? cmake? scons? Plain makefile doesn 21:14:57 doesn't* cut it for more complex stuff 21:15:02 is imake the one that preprocesses makefiles using cpp? 21:15:19 Gregor, yes for such a platform I imagine it would be 21:15:20 Vorpal: No, seriously, autotools breaks down and fucks itself the minute you step out of a few rigidly-defined GNU-type systems. 21:15:28 It works for you because you use GNU/Linux/Typical. 21:15:45 elliott: ... no. 21:15:46 elliott, not my experience at all. Only thing it doesn't work well on seems to be cygwin 21:15:48 elliott: So much no. 21:16:01 elliott: You realize that for years I worked for Intel doing builds of F/OSS software on like six architectures? 21:16:13 elliott: With every new package, we PRAYED that it was autotools. Because autotools WORK. 21:16:15 elliott, it works fine on *BSD, it works fine on some more esoteric platforms such as opensolaris. I haven't tried HP-UX though so can't answer for that 21:16:29 it even worked fine on an old sunos box 21:16:43 Vorpal, OpenSolaris is not esoteric. 21:16:57 Phantom_Hoover_, did I claim it was? 21:17:03 Phantom_Hoover_: Whatever you want to believe :P 21:17:09 "it works fine on some more esoteric platforms such as opensolaris" 21:17:14 but yes it is in some aspects 21:17:25 Gregor, esoteric <-> interesting. 21:17:27 elliott, oh not in the "on topic sense" 21:18:06 Phantom_Hoover_: Esoteric == only known to a small, select group. An unsupported OS that barely managed to get off the ground and is now being squelched is the definition of esoteric. 21:18:55 It should also do something new, or at least defy common practices. 21:19:44 Gregor, indeed 21:20:31 Well, this is entirely my own definition. 21:20:53 Phantom_Hoover_, so why would you expect other people to use it? 21:21:39 Well, Gregor's definition makes things like the Seltzer & Friedberg Appreciation Society esoteric. 21:22:02 Phantom_Hoover_, I never heard of that so I don't know 21:22:12 it is however an indication that could be the case 21:22:56 elliott: I notice you haven't actually made any further comments about autotools, since autotools are a cross-platform build maintainer's dream, whereas cmake, scons, plain Makefiles and whatever else you're going to list have exactly the problems you mentioned as being problems of autotools. 21:23:21 Gregor: I'm not going to list any because every one sucks, I've just been bitten by autotols constantly. 21:23:23 *autotools. 21:23:24 -!- xiaoy has joined. 21:23:49 Gregor, why did you build them at intel btw? 21:23:59 Vorpal: ... because that was my job? 21:24:07 Gregor, yes but for what? their linux distro? 21:24:13 Vorpal: Internal use. 21:24:32 Vorpal: To maim the babies. 21:24:33 Gregor, oh heh. They had their own linux distro internally or what? 21:24:46 Gregor: ... 21:24:52 Gregor: Let's not bother trying to make Vorpal understand things! 21:25:09 No, they just had a distro of commonly-used F/OSS tools that were all at the same versions across some six arch/OS combinations. 21:25:15 Gregor, ah 21:25:30 Gregor: please tell me windows was one of them 21:25:41 elliott: Good LORD no. 21:25:46 Gregor: awww :D 21:25:56 " 21:25:56 If Linux doesn't have the solution, you have the wrong problem." -- stupid Linux forum signature 21:26:00 what does that even mean 21:26:07 medical equipment that needs hard real-time is WRONG! 21:26:18 Gregor, hm, intel would use x86, x86-64, IA-64 and ARM right 21:26:35 probably not ARM for this 21:26:38 elliott: Gregor: ... If eval() is the answer, chances are you're asking the wrong question 21:26:45 elliott: That makes me grind my teeth every time :P 21:26:58 Vorpal: And SPARC, PA-RISC :P 21:27:14 Gregor, they use SPARC and PA-RISC? So weird. 21:27:28 Gregor: This philosophy is exemplified in #python, where their motto is "You're here for help? Hahahaha. Tell us your entire application architecture and we will rip it apart without trying to understand it." 21:27:37 Gregor: (the "wrong question" philosophy) 21:28:42 elliott, it DOES happen that people ask the wrong question though. Like in #bash, trying to make echo do something weird when it is trivially straightforward with printf. 21:28:49 Seriously, I will PAY someone to find a smallX tarball to me. 21:28:59 Vorpal: Yes, but with Python it's not "do it this other way", it's "don't do that" at a very high level. 21:29:12 I want to hook up X to Y. Don't do that, use Z instead. But I can't use Z. Well fuck you then. 21:29:31 elliott, tried http://www.superant.com/smalllinux/tinyX01.html ? 21:29:37 What about when the thing they're trying is genuinely dumb? 21:29:46 Vorpal: Go on, try clicking one of those tarball links. 21:29:55 Phantom_Hoover_: if that was the case i wouldn't criticise as much. 21:30:00 elliott, ouch 21:30:03 -!- xiaoy has left (?). 21:30:11 elliott, try the email there? 21:30:18 Vorpal: I've found the HTTP interface to tux.org FTP and their smalllinux/smallX pages are 404'd. 21:30:21 "genuinely dumb"? you seem to be implying something not-dumb is even possible in python :) 21:30:30 Vorpal: I will if I can't find the .tgz. 21:30:34 But I'd like to find it rather than bug him... 21:31:01 elliott, well hopefully that will mean he will update the link to something that works 21:31:12 Vorpal: Who knows if he has it? 21:31:26 [["Here's some interesting news: KOffice, as a brand name, no longer exists. And with that change, I can't help but wonder if we are soon going to be looking at the end of the KDE name, as well. 21:31:26 "It seems that the KDE community has decided to rename the KOffice project to the Calligra Suite project, as well as all the names of the individual applications within KOffice. So, KWord becomes Words, KSpread becomes Tables, and so forth. There's a table on the Calligra suite announcement that lists all of the changes.]] 21:31:27 LOLKDE 21:31:35 elliott, who knows. Who knows if he died from a freak volcano? (Okay that is less probable, but still!) 21:31:38 Words, it's like Microsoft Word but there's more of 'em. 21:31:44 olsner, come now, using a particular language doesn't actually make a program stupid. 21:32:04 Phantom_Hoover_: PHP 21:32:14 But programming languages can themselves be stupid ideas, and they can be designed and pitched in such a way that only idiots use them. 21:32:24 To see the newest version of these wiki notes go to [[http://www.superant.com/sadrupal/]] ----> 404 21:33:01 elliott, I am sure that somewhere, at some time, someone will have written a sensible program in PHP. 21:33:08 Phantom_Hoover_: I'm saying Python is (also) one of those languages 21:33:18 elliott, "sadrupal"? I thought drupal was a CMS and not a wiki. So weird name 21:33:26 That are stupid ideas or attract stupid people? 21:33:29 Or both? 21:33:38 elliott: I don't think you realise how awful imake is. 21:33:52 olsner, you have to admit python is better than php at least? 21:33:54 elliott: It's C preprocessor on Makefiles. 21:34:16 Vorpal: definitely 21:34:36 pikhq: i never said it wasn't awful 21:34:39 pikhq, and since when did not knowing about something stop elliott having extremely strong opinions about it? 21:34:41 Vorpal: drupal is na everything 21:34:47 I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IMAKE GODDAMMIT 21:34:49 I KNOW IT WAS HORRIBLE 21:34:50 elliott, oaky true 21:34:54 *an 21:34:55 okay* 21:34:58 wrt drupal that is 21:35:16 Can someone actually send me a précis of why PHP sucks? 21:35:18 elliott, autotools is an improvement. In fact autotools is the best option there is currently 21:35:33 I've never learnt it, and it's always just been implicitly true. 21:35:37 [Removed chvt, deallocvt because they didn't work.] 21:35:46 faeg 21:35:46 Phantom_Hoover_: Far too many reasons. 21:35:46 -!- xvedejas has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:35:58 elliott, hence "précis". 21:36:24 norwegians say "precis" all the time 21:36:34 nooga, that is a different "precis" I think 21:36:34 swedes too 21:36:42 olsner, precis! 21:36:47 I had never seen "précis" before. 21:36:55 pikhq, I had to google it 21:37:04 pikhq, also I'm surprised. It is something you would use 21:37:08 Phantom_Hoover_: Man who admits he hates programming invents programming language that's like Perl except everything is in one big print statement and to get out of print and have code you need to write . Then he puts all functions, with inconsistent argument order and naming, into one gigantic namespace, make ?x=y in the URL set $x = y, and makes ' and \ in strings automatically get backslash-escaped so that you can put them into a M 21:37:09 ySQL DB directly (seriously). 21:37:10 but "a précis" is basically a summary, right? 21:37:22 Phantom_Hoover_: Follow natural evolution path towards amazingly crap. 21:37:25 *evolutionary 21:37:33 Vorpal: Yes, yes I would. 21:37:51 CC arch/x86/kernel/cpu/vmware.o 21:37:52 CC arch/x86/kernel/cpu/hypervisor.o 21:37:54 Can one disable these: 21:38:02 elliott, which kernel version 21:38:03 elliott, OK. 21:38:10 Vorpal: 2.6.36.1. 21:38:10 elliott, if it recent I think you should be able to 21:38:13 VMware options are *not* enabled. 21:38:31 elliott, wait, there. That you probably need to enable embedded to remove cpuid strings 21:38:31 And nor are any hypervisor options. 21:38:32 or such 21:38:42 Vorpal: I have enabled embedded. 21:38:46 elliott, hm 21:38:56 elliott, okay then check if they just contain #ifdef SOMETHINGTHATENABLESME 21:38:59 elliott, I seen that 21:39:07 elliott, basically empty object files is what I suspect 21:39:17 Nope, 21:39:19 EXPORT_SYMBOL(x86_hyper_vmware); 21:39:21 and no ifdef 21:39:27 I don't know if it's actually linked in, mind. 21:39:35 -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 1720 Dec 7 20:57 arch/x86/kernel/cpu/vmware.o 21:39:37 maybe it is empty, then 21:39:39 elliott, since I saw altivec.o compile on x86_64. I got so confused about that, that I opened the C file and found it just ifdefed out 21:39:46 hypervisor is slightly smaller 21:39:54 and isn't ifdeffed out either 21:40:05 elliott, just export symbol? Nothing else? 21:40:10 Vorpal: no, other things too 21:40:14 huh 21:40:15 static functions and the like 21:40:16 CC arch/x86/boot/video-vga.o 21:40:16 CC arch/x86/boot/video-vesa.o 21:40:21 ugh, i hope you can disable the latter 21:40:43 elliott, why aren't you using an older kernel (assuming it is the floppy one still) 21:40:58 Vorpal: cba 21:41:02 even 2.4 was a bitch 21:41:10 elliott, 2.4 didn't build? 21:41:18 elliott, if so: what, it is recent enough 21:41:18 i don't recall 21:41:32 elliott, make xconfig is the sanest option for 2.4 iirc 21:41:44 elliott, (have fun with Tk) 21:41:53 i tried it 21:41:55 with menuconfig 21:41:57 whatever, anyway 21:42:00 │ │ (0x1000000) Physical address where the kernel is loaded │ │ 21:42:03 │ │ (0x1000000) Alignment value to which kernel should be aligned │ │ 21:42:07 wonder if reducing them will shrink kernel :) 21:42:18 elliott, no it won't I think 21:42:30 elliott, also if you change that I *think* you need to change the bootloader too 21:42:41 prolly 21:43:03 * elliott disables mice for now 21:43:17 System is 608 kB 21:43:18 fuckin' a 21:43:35 what where did my ethernet go 21:43:53 elliott, so wait, where are you going to get software for this? 21:44:03 Are you going to install a libc? 21:44:09 Phantom_Hoover_: um there's barely enough space for software 21:44:16 libc is unlikely, they're big and i can statically-link stuff 21:44:21 elliott, I'm sure 2.4 will be smaller. 2.0 even smaller 21:44:26 i tried 2.0. 21:44:29 didn't build 21:44:39 all i really want at this point is... X, a tiny window manager, and a tiny terminal 21:44:46 maybe one day i can squeeze links2 in. 21:44:51 elliott, "I tried foo, didn't work, I gave up". Okay I won't hold that against you. 21:44:53 Ah, I get it. 21:45:02 Vorpal: good :P 21:45:12 ok let's see where my ethernet went 21:45:27 11690 e3 21:45:36 elliott, because it doesn't change anything. I already knew that you weren't very persistent in any endeavour 21:45:36 i wonder if i could disable all the non-vi modes of e3 21:45:49 Vorpal: sure i am, just not in pointless endeavours. 21:45:54 and this is definitely pointless. 21:46:11 elliott, so procrastinating? 21:46:20 nope, just messing around 21:46:20 so, 21:46:21 * 21:46:25 okay 21:46:28 and because pikhq wanted to do it 21:46:32 so i'd better do it better first! 21:46:34 hah 21:47:39 nooga, oh btw in case you didn't know. sv:precis = en:exactly. 21:47:53 (also en:exact, depends on context) 21:49:56 1622 finger 21:49:56 2151 tar 21:49:56 2320 netstat 21:49:56 5218 sh 21:49:56 6219 readelf 21:49:58 Biggest utilities :P 21:50:23 elliott, you don't need finger? 21:50:27 elliott, or? 21:50:43 Vorpal: sure I don't, but why not 21:51:05 elliott, well sure, if you have space left over 21:51:40 Vorpal: it's 1622 bytes :P 21:52:08 elliott, which makes the space you can spend on X 1622 bytes smaller 21:55:56 "And why should a [video game] character conform to and reinforce gender stereotypes? Birdo might have given some transgender kid hope." 21:56:21 :D 21:56:50 Gregor, I'm not sure how that connection works 21:56:50 "One day I can be just like Birdo." 21:57:08 Vorpal: Birdo is the only semi-major transgender videogame character :P 21:57:21 Gregor, oh, officially? 21:57:22 huh 21:57:30 Vorpal: Not REALLY officially, but pseudo-officially X-P 21:57:45 In that Birdo was officially a gender-confused male, but in later things was officially female. 21:58:20 Gregor, how did that happen to begin with 21:58:53 when talking about post-op transsexuals in past-tense, do you need to keep track of the time the transition was made to get the right pronoun? 21:58:59 Vorpal: In the SMB2 manual, Birdo was labeled as a "boy who thinks he's a girl". In later things I guess they just decided that she's female. But the implications of that are clear, since both are canonical :P 21:59:12 olsner: Pronouns suck :P 21:59:28 olsner, I'm not sure anybody has a good answer to that 22:00:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:01:50 Vorpal: probably not 22:02:16 olsner, spivak for everyone? 22:02:20 when talking about post-op transsexuals in past-tense, do you need to keep track of the time the transition was made to get the right pronoun? 22:02:20 "Yoshi is supposedly a male, but lays eggs like a female. Birdo is supposedly a female, but was originally called a male. And now the two of them are a romantic couple? They were both sexually chaotic as individuals -- this new pairing just made your head hurt thinking about it." 22:02:27 olsner: um you're always meant to use the post-transition pronoun... 22:02:29 olsner: even pre-op 22:02:31 Yoshi + Birdo = the single greatest video game couple in history :P 22:02:56 olsner: you don't think about whether someone has a penis or not before choosing a pronoun :P 22:02:58 Gregor, blame Japan 22:03:06 elliott: right, pre/post-*op* is definitely wrong since the operation is independent of changing gender identity 22:03:10 -!- gon|away has changed nick to goneriku. 22:03:18 olsner: "when talking about post-op transsexuals in past-tense" --you 22:03:34 elliott, "to" != "about" 22:03:45 Vorpal: um olsner knows what i mean, you don't 22:03:48 elliott: bah, I'll just change that sentence to something else then! 22:03:49 elliott, what about before they had any conception of their gender identity differing from the norm? 22:04:18 Phantom_Hoover_: it's very rare that people feel 100% comfortable with their identity and then decide to transition... 22:04:27 i've never heard of it 22:04:30 elliott, what about when they were 2 or something? 22:04:38 Before they even had any conception of gender? 22:05:13 spivak nouns until sexual maturity! 22:05:14 Phantom_Hoover_: I can guarantee you that no transperson wants to be referred to as what they used to think their gender was no matter what tense :P 22:05:17 (OK, I won't actually guarantee that.) 22:05:20 olsner: sex != gender 22:05:25 so that's a silly thing to say 22:05:48 TRANSSEXUALS ARE IMMORAL PEOPLE. GOD CHOSE YOUR SEX FOR A REASON. 22:05:50 * Gregor takes a bow. 22:05:50 Spivak nouns until they express a preference! 22:06:01 ... and shoots a tranny with it OH SEE HOW I MADE THAT AMBIGUOUS 22:06:02 Gregor: JESUS WAS A GIRL IN A GIRL'S BODY 22:06:14 elliott: make that what phantom hoover said instead 22:06:15 Gregor: Are you sure it was a bow you shot that tranny with? :| 22:06:21 Gregor, so what about those cases of ambiguous sex? 22:06:22 Gregor, but what's God's view of the LINGUISTICS of the matter? 22:06:34 elliott: Yes. I put a bow in another bow, and fired the first bow with the second. 22:06:35 olsner: Phantom_Hoover_: How about SPIVAK PRONOUNS FOREVER because gendered pronouns are moronic 22:06:41 Gregor: Nice [0010]. 22:06:44 elliott, good luck with that. 22:06:49 Gregor, or the rare condition of having XY but being insensitive to testosterone 22:06:50 Is that an [0010] in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? 22:06:58 hmm, spivak nouns are just ... ugly 22:07:00 Phantom_Hoover_: You think your solution is getting adopted either? :P 22:07:03 olsner: ENGLISH IS UGLY :P 22:07:05 Vorpal: GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS. 22:07:23 For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S. 22:07:24 elliott: ENGLISH WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS. 22:07:26 -!- Sasha has joined. 22:07:27 i agree with Gregor a magic man did it 22:07:42 Gregor: i shouldn't complain about english. good enough for jesus, good enough for me 22:07:45 `addquote For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S. 22:07:49 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders what genes are on God's Y chromosome. 22:07:53 237) For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S. 22:08:01 this is also why I sleep on a cross every night 22:08:09 Gregor: That is not even remotely permanently quotable :P 22:08:20 elliott: YESH IT ISH 22:08:34 elliott, I agree with Gregor on this one. 22:08:54 Shut up! I'm pondering theogenetics! 22:08:55 it can be read in another way without the context 22:08:59 still funny 22:10:04 robots 22:10:15 elliott, any way to quickly get all permutations of a list in python? Quickly as in "easy to write" not "executes fast" 22:10:32 I feel it should be trivial in a high level language 22:10:59 like taking the list times itself or such. 22:11:38 Vorpal: there is a way but i forget :D 22:11:44 elliott, what's your opinion on singular "they"? 22:11:45 elliott, ouch :( 22:11:54 Phantom_Hoover_: Perfectly cromulent. 22:12:01 elliott, I agree. 22:12:06 Vorpal: itertools has permutations 22:12:08 ah 22:12:25 >>> from itertools import permutations 22:12:26 I also think that, logically, the first person pronoun should be made universally "we". 22:12:28 >>> list(permutations([1,2,3])) 22:12:31 [(1, 2, 3), (1, 3, 2), (2, 1, 3), (2, 3, 1), (3, 1, 2), (3, 2, 1)] 22:12:32 Too slow am I. 22:12:38 I blame the phone. 22:12:40 System is 827 kB 22:12:42 Wheew. 22:12:52 Thus removing all singular/plural distinction in the English pronoun system. 22:12:53 Phantom_Hoover_: We are amused. 22:13:04 fizzie: "Too slow am I. The phone I blame." 22:13:15 Phantom_Hoover_: Also, there IS singular/plural distinction. 22:13:19 you/y'all 22:13:50 WHY IS NETWORK BROKE 22:13:52 I'd go for "youse", personally. 22:14:08 it gave me a list of tuples. Why... 22:14:10 "Is it true that the plural of 'y'all' is 'all y'all'?", I saw asked somewhere. 22:14:24 (as in, why tuples) 22:14:28 Vorpal, BECAUSE YOU ARE HEADCRAB ZOMBIE! 22:14:41 Well, they're known-length sequences. 22:14:49 fizzie, ah right, makes sense 22:15:13 fizzie, I'll just process the result with sed anyway XD 22:15:17 Since it's from itertools, it probably also gives you a generator, not a list. 22:15:30 http://qntm.org/dna 22:15:33 * Phantom_Hoover_ ponders this. 22:15:33 fizzie, yes indeed I passed it to list 22:15:36 since I needed a list 22:15:43 [[# (50 - X)% of Yancy's genes are eternal genes with no origin, inherited from Fry, who originally inherited them from his mother.]] 22:16:04 But they're regular genes, not eternal ones. 22:16:19 Hmm, perhaps not... 22:16:32 Phantom_Hoover_: They're eternal in the sense that if you trace their history, it is an infinite loop. 22:16:40 Gregor, no, that's the thing. 22:16:54 They're from Fry's mother, whose genes are entirely normal. 22:17:29 I feel an infinite geometric series coming on... 22:17:33 Phantom_Hoover_: Isn't Fry's mother's side the side that Fry is on? 22:17:39 Gregor, no. 22:17:56 Fry is his own paternal grandfather. 22:17:57 What kernel module implements qemu's default network card? 22:18:14 Phantom_Hoover_: Oh, then that's a weird statement. 22:18:38 Gregor, but I can see a justification through the haze of my ape brain. 22:18:47 Phantom_Hoover_: Where did you get that quote from? 22:18:51 It's just proving hard to pin down. 22:18:55 I just linked to it. 22:19:02 http://qntm.org/dna 22:19:41 * Phantom_Hoover_ decides to reduce it to a toy model. 22:19:50 Phantom_Hoover_: Ohhh, I was thinking about Yancy JR 22:20:16 Phantom_Hoover_: Which made the whole thing kinda nonsense :P 22:20:32 OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs. 22:20:49 `addquote OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs. 22:20:49 238) OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs. 22:21:17 (This ignores a few things, most interestingly that Fry's Y chromosome is completely eternal.) 22:22:04 Phantom_Hoover_: Hm, yeah, those are definitely not eternal, they just happen to go backwards and forwards in time before being discarded. 22:25:43 Okay, seriously, THERE IS NO WAY A TARBALL DISAPPEARED FROM THE INTERNET. 22:25:54 * Phantom_Hoover_ starts smearing dye on a piece of dead tree. 22:26:15 Phantom_Hoover_: I just call that "Saturday". 22:26:49 Phantom_Hoover_: don't forget chromosomal crossover 22:27:05 oerjan, LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU 22:27:12 :D 22:28:27 Phantom_Hoover_: "Depending on what X is (see above), this is either disgustingly incestuous (for X ≅ 5) or entirely inoffensive and legal (for X = 50)." This statement is kinda silly too since all humans have some 99.99% of their genes in common with each other :P 22:28:58 I JUST WANT A SMALLX TARBALL 22:29:10 Gregor, yes, but 45% is effectively identical to incest genetically. 22:29:15 Phantom_Hoover_: "Depending on what X is (see above), this is either disgustingly incestuous (for X ≅ 5) or entirely inoffensive and legal (for X = 50)." This statement is kinda silly too since all humans have some 99.99% of their genes in common with each other :P 22:29:19 There's a reason they call it wincest! 22:29:34 Sorry, *sibling incest. 22:29:41 [[In my on-going research for alternatives to the X.org full server, I ran across references to a “TinyX” which led me to SmallX, AKA Kdrive. Aside from one, very obsolete reference written for mere mortal users, the whole thing is buried in code-jockey talk.]] 22:29:43 Parental incest is... the same, actually. 22:29:44 If you're not a code-jockey 22:29:48 why are you trying to replace X.Org. 22:30:48 Seriously. Anyone. SmallX. Please. 22:30:59 I *think* this might come down to a fixed point... 22:31:23 elliott: ftp://ftp.mayn.de/pub/really_old_stuff/unix/x11/tinyx/XVGA16.tar.gz 22:31:42 Gregor: I love you. How did you find that? 22:31:52 elliott: I googled for the tarball name. It was REALLY difficult. 22:31:59 Gregor: That's what I did, so fuck you :P 22:32:06 elliott: I googled it harder. 22:32:13 ...OK, googling for XVGA16.tar.gz works WAY better than "smallX tinyX" 22:32:24 "tarball name" :P 22:32:38 Gregor: Oh for fuck's sake, it looks like it's just XFree86 TinyX. 22:32:55 OK, I think I have a vague grasp on the thing about the maternal eternal genes. 22:32:58 Xtinylib.tar.gz BETTER have some real code. 22:33:13 elliott: I'm betting ... no. 22:33:42 Gregor: lolso, teach me how to use the modular X build system. 22:33:56 All I want is a single KDrive and Xlib with EVERYTHING DISABLED :P 22:34:02 Probabilistically, 25% of Yancy's genes are inherited from his wife. 22:34:08 At least. 22:35:36 elliott: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/Xserver/InstallGuide <-- although slightly out-of-date, this does show the list of modules you have to build before building xserver kdrive. You'll need to provide the --enable-kdrive option nowadays, and ignore the shitload of stuff it builds AFTER the xserver, but otherwise there ya go. 22:35:53 "ignore the shitload of stuff it builds AFTER the xserver" 22:35:55 how disable :| 22:36:08 elliott: That's a list of packages essentially, just don't do them. 22:36:26 Gregor: Anyway, last I checked the only way to build was (1) 10000000 tarballs or (2) git repository. 22:36:27 elliott: (And note that it shows CVS since that's hyper-old instructions, and everything is in git now, and you should just get the packages anyway, just follow the package names :P ) 22:36:43 elliott: For kdrive, I'd estimate 10 tarballs. 22:36:43 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:36:51 Gregor: over-modular more like 22:37:03 elliott: Yes, it is over-modular, but I'll still take it over imake any day :P 22:37:12 (The main thing is that splitting the proto and lib packages was a weird decision :P 22:37:14 ) 22:38:16 http://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.5/src/xserver/ 22:38:20 Is this the right thing? :p 22:39:15 Gregor: And are you suuure it doesn't have 16-bit VGA? 22:44:26 checking for XSERVERCFLAGS... configure: error: Package requirements (randrproto >= 1.2.99.3 renderproto >= 0.11 fixesproto >= 4.1 damageproto >= 1.1 xcmiscproto >= 1.2.0 xextproto >= 7.0.99.3 xproto >= 7.0.13 xtrans >= 1.2.2 bigreqsproto >= 1.1.0 fontsproto inputproto >= 1.9.99.902 kbproto >= 1.0.3 xkbfile xfont xau pixman-1 >= 0.15.20 openssl) were not met: 22:44:28 Gregor: Dude. 22:48:38 hm sshfs has some delays that shouldn't be there I think 22:48:54 sure you don't see a remote file created straight away (on the client side) 22:49:05 but you should see the files you just wrote surely 22:51:06 Gregor: Sooo, is there a simpler way than fetching those manually? 22:51:18 Vorpal, I know this will sound suspicious, but where's the throne room gone? 22:52:01 Phantom_Hoover_, what throne room? 22:52:21 Vorpal, oh. You're playing this game. 22:52:26 Rather childish. 22:52:29 Vorpal: You know, the throne room. 22:52:37 It's the room with the throne. 22:52:43 Phantom_Hoover_, I'm not playing any game. I'm printing a report 22:53:03 Phantom_Hoover_: What do you mean where has it gone? 22:53:14 elliott, oh. That. It's in Buckingham Palace. 22:53:26 (or its or whatever) 22:53:28 There's just a bare room where the lobby used to be. 22:53:34 * Phantom_Hoover_ → sleep 22:53:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:53:56 well I could tell you. If you were here 22:57:40 not sure I would. I seriously didn't have time for MC today, yet I had to clean up his mess 22:58:47 I should just make the pit deep enough to kill on falling. About twice the current depth iirc. Nothing below it. Should be doable. A pain with the obsidian though. 22:58:48 oh well 23:00:51 elliott, I realised while .xz is cool it isn't really usable yet if you want to make sure that everyone can open it. 23:01:02 (note, windows compat is not an issue in this case) 23:01:07 (if it was, it would mean zip) 23:01:20 so tar.bz2 still has it's uses 23:08:14 Vorpal: If you want to make sure everyone can open it, you should use compress. 23:08:31 If you actually want something that *sane distros* can open, use xz. 23:08:40 pikhq, no, because that would confuse people. Thus they couldn't open it. 23:08:58 Vorpal: Okay, y'know what? 23:09:01 Vorpal: Sharballs. 23:09:04 Vorpal: You may only use shar. 23:09:05 pikhq, in this case I want a teacher at university to be able to open a lab assignment. I know he use linux. I don't know if he has xz. 23:09:16 thus best bet: tar.bz2 23:09:20 or tar.gz 23:09:32 but the tar.gz is too large for the email system. 23:09:38 Vorpal: Is his distro more than 3 years old? If not, xz is fine. If it is, I suggest you root that box. 23:09:41 (lots of data files included) 23:09:44 pikhq, I have no idea 23:09:44 Ended up installing hMod. 23:09:56 ineiros, oh, interesting 23:10:11 ineiros, any user guide to it? 23:10:31 There's a wiki. 23:10:50 ah 23:11:02 fizzie, is it so complex that a single page isn't enough? 23:11:34 http://wiki.hey0.net/index.php/Main_Page 23:11:44 oh my... what a long commands page 23:12:01 It's got those, and lots of plugins. 23:12:14 " * Command: /help --- Shows a list of commands (7 per page). " 23:12:21 mhm 23:12:39 ineiros, any kits defined? 23:13:05 Pretty much default configuration, didn't yet check anything else. 23:13:24 fizzie, also inconsistent. It has /kit without parameters to list kits, but /listwrap instead of /wrap without parameters 23:13:32 err 23:13:34 warp* 23:13:37 (in both cases) 23:13:50 and why /lighter 23:13:56 I mean, shouldn't that be a kit :P 23:14:17 /getpos looks useful. I had a lot of issues trying to work out offsets when building that trap 23:14:41 xz sucks because of cpu usage 23:15:07 elliott, sometimes, such as when preparing a release tarball, that is not an issue 23:15:07 ineiros: disabled health? 23:15:10 I think /lighter is not a kit because t was ported from some other thing. 23:15:17 Vorpal: but unpacking it still uses cpu. 23:15:37 elliott, technically so does everything unless you have a separate accelerator chip for that algorithm 23:15:46 which uses DMA 23:15:58 Vorpal: more cpu than gzip though 23:16:00 or bzip 23:16:07 elliott, gzip is very cpu-friendly 23:16:08 or azip :) 23:16:17 and bzip2 uses a lot more cpu for unpacking 23:16:21 I'm pretty sure about that 23:16:25 not sure about bzip 23:16:30 prolly true 23:16:31 but no one uses that any more 23:16:45 i've never cared that much about ultra small compression in common usage 23:16:53 networks aren't so slow that wasting minutes compressing a tarball is worthwhile 23:17:22 elliott, depends on what you plan to do with it. Download it over 3G? EDGE? Pack it on an install cd? 23:17:23 elliott: xz decompression is actually more CPU friendly than bzip2. 23:17:42 Unless you're using xz -9 or something. 23:17:42 edge is not that bad. 23:17:44 But that's crazy. 23:17:48 pikhq: Vorpal prolly does 23:17:48 :p 23:18:06 elliott, I used it for testing if it was worthwhile. It wasn't. 23:18:17 It gets you, like, bytes of benefit. 23:18:18 but no I haven't used -9 beyond some basic testing of xz 23:18:24 And adds hours. 23:18:26 pikhq, -9 -e ! ;P 23:18:45 pikhq, note: I only did that as a test. And it saved like 1 MB on an ISO 23:18:53 took 10-15 minutes to compress 23:18:58 I wish lzma(1) had -10 --super-mega-brutish. For Flinix :) 23:19:13 Vorpal: Pah! ESO distributed the ICFP ISO COMPLETELY UNCOMPRESSED in... 2009? 2010? 23:19:23 And used up our entire bandwidth for the month I might add (100 gigs) 23:19:26 elliott, ICFP? 23:19:31 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 23:19:35 or was it 150 gig 23:19:43 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:19:47 Vorpal: international conference on functional programming. they run a popular programming contest each year 23:19:54 elliott, heh 23:19:58 they distributed an iso to provide a common testing environment for everyone 23:20:00 Vorpal: heh? 23:20:06 elliott, maybe uncompressed was a bad idea then 23:20:08 btw not only functional programmers participate 23:20:10 it's woooorld famous 23:20:13 if it used the entire bw for that month 23:20:19 Vorpal: http://www.boundvariable.org/ you have probably seen this 23:20:22 http://www.boundvariable.org/task.shtml 23:20:26 that's the 2006 contest 23:20:36 elliott, ah yes that URL I remember 23:21:37 linux is so bloated, what is it spending 480K on 23:22:05 elliott: Herring for penguins. 23:22:37 pikhq: *complete copy of Wikipedia to comply with the GFDL 23:22:46 `quote GFDL 23:22:59 * elliott makes quote search case-insensitively 23:24:02 -!- Sasha2_ has joined. 23:24:03 Gregor: lolbroke 23:24:08 153) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there. 23:24:13 yay 23:24:14 pikhq: ^ 23:25:30 elliott: Also herring. 23:25:47 pikhq: HOW HARD IS X86 (ANSWER NOT AT ALL LINUX IS BLOAT) 23:26:41 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:28:11 pikhq: Did that kernel of yours ever do anything? 23:28:19 OMFG I JUST HAD THE BEST IDEA EVER GREGOR GREGOR GREGOR 23:28:21 Gregor 23:28:33 GREGOR GREGOR GREGOR Gregor IS the best idea ever. 23:28:42 Gregor: You know how much you love SysV? 23:28:56 I lurve it with a spatula. 23:28:59 Gregor: #ESOTERIC SHOULD PORT A IT OR A UNIX OF SIMILAR VINTAGE TO I386. 23:29:16 How hard can it be! SysV was like the most portable OS ever! And old Research Unixes had stupidly simple kernels! 23:29:19 System V ran on 386 :P 23:29:20 And it would be AWESOME. 23:29:25 Gregor: ...oh. 23:29:27 Gregor: well 23:29:29 Gregor: RESEARCH UNIX 23:29:29 System V ONLY ran on 386. 23:29:40 We should port it to x86_64 though :P 23:29:46 (Except the source to System V is of course not available) 23:29:46 System V ran on the DEC VAX and PDP-11 machines. It also added support for inter-process communication using messages, semaphores, and shared memory. 23:29:48 System V ran on the DEC VAX and PDP-11 machines. It also added support for inter-process communication using messages, semaphores, and shared memory. 23:29:51 Gregor: ha ha faggot 23:30:12 The primary platforms for SVR4 were Intel x86 and SPARC; the SPARC version, called Solaris 2 (or, internally, SunOS 5.x), was developed by Sun 23:30:19 what i'm saying is: fag 23:30:25 Oh yeah, R4 and later >_> 23:30:31 SysVR<=3 sucked anyway :P 23:30:32 R4 = ELF 23:30:48 Gregor: OK then. Unix Nth Edition (for low N. Like say fourth edition because previous versions were written in assembly.) 23:30:57 1st edition code is available at least :p 23:31:26 Gregor: "WAIT I KNOW LET'S WRITE OUR OWN UNIX-COMPATIBLE FROM SCRATCH AND DISTRIBUTE IT FREELY OVER THE INTERNET." 23:31:43 /nick Leenyos_Torovoltos 23:31:47 elliott: And let's write it in JavaScript! 23:31:48 elliott: And call it JSMIPS! 23:31:59 Gregor: Brilliant! 23:32:52 Gregor: Seriously though, research Unix on 386, how cool would that be (answer: mega cool) 23:33:58 I HAS KITTY 23:34:05 Gregor: AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME VERSION 1-7 UNIX IS UNDER FOUR-CLAUSE BSD 23:34:21 Gregor: (VERSION 7 CAME OUT IN 1979 :P) 23:34:34 [[V7 was the first readily portable version of Unix. As this was the era of minicomputers, with their many architectural variations, and also the dawning of the market for 16-bit microprocessors, many ports were completed within the first few years of its release. The first Sun workstations (then based on the Motorola 68010) ran a V7 port by UniSoft; the first version of Xenix for the Intel 8086 was derived from V7]] 23:34:37 WHY DO YOU RUIN OUR FUN 23:34:43 An x86 port is under active development by Nordier & Associates. The current version is 0.8a. The project has produced a bootable CD image with an installer script.[2] 23:34:44 what 23:34:49 how is anyone as crazy as us 23:34:59 Gregor: Dood http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/index.html :P 23:35:09 elliott: WE LOSE 23:35:12 elliott: How 'bout Unix 32v? 23:35:24 There are presently a few supplementary V7/x86-specific documents available: 23:35:25 v7x86asref.pdf V7/x86 Assembler Reference Manual 23:35:25 v7x86intro.pdf Using V7/x86: A Brief Introduction 23:35:43 Gregor: But Unix 32v is Seventh Edition ported to VAX :P 23:35:47 Gregor: So it's the same thing. 23:36:09 elliott: I was already typing that before you mentioned v7x86, I was just suggesting it because at least it's already 32-bit :P 23:36:20 Gregor: HOWEVER I bet 4th edition would be easy. 23:36:22 4th Edition Nov. 1973 First Unix written in C. It also introduced groups. Number of installations was listed as "above 20". The manual was formatted with troff for the first time. 23:36:29 V5 is listed as "Introduced the sticky bit", what a release :P 23:36:44 6th is when people started PORTING it and we want to be the fisrt people to do anything. 23:36:51 [[xv6 is a modern reimplementation of Sixth Edition Unix in ANSI C for multiprocessor x86 systems.]] 23:36:55 [[It is used for pedagogical purposes in MIT's Operating Systems Engineering (6.828) course.]] 23:37:07 Gregor: 4th Edition LET'S DO THIS OKAY 23:37:11 elliott: FAILZ 23:37:40 elliott: Instead let's set up a publicly-available free shell service on v7x86 23:37:40 [[The fourth edition of Unix was the first version to have a kernel written in a high level language, C, along with some of the commands. A full and complete copy of Fourth Edition no longer exists.]] 23:38:15 Gregor: Not xv6? :p 23:38:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:38:46 "V7 Unix introduced the first version of the modern "Standard I/O" library stdio as part of the system library." 23:39:01 [[For many years, MIT had no operating systems course. In the fall of 2002, Frans Kaashoek, Josh Cates, and Emil Sit created a new, experimental course (6.097) to teach operating systems engineering. In the course lectures, the class worked through Sixth Edition Unix (aka V6) using John Lions's famous commentary.]] 23:39:16 MIT: Making 2002 feel just like 1975. 23:39:25 "V7 Unix introduced the first version of the modern "Standard I/O" library stdio as part of the system library." <-- kinda important X-P 23:39:39 Gregor: Whoa, Russ Cox was involved in xv6 X-D 23:39:46 Gregor: Also, hey, I swear off stdio and you should too. :p 23:40:01 /win/win 48 23:40:09 I lurve stdio. 23:40:22 Gregor: But it's terrible! 23:40:51 olsner: hmm, you know my microkernel design? 23:42:42 I think I just managed to invent an attokernel :P 23:44:15 Gregor: OK, I've figured it out. 23:44:27 Gregor: We should port the System V kernel as a HURD server. 23:45:26 System V kernel source isn't available. 23:45:39 Except in some enormously derivative form in OpenSolaris. 23:46:34 [[ "The network software for Unix was developed on a PDP-11/50, with memory management, two RK05 disk packs, two nine track magtape drives, four dectape drives, 32k words of core, and three terminals. Presently this has been expanded to encompass a DH11 terminal multiplexor, an RP03 moving head disk, a twin platter RF11 fixed head disk, floating point, and 48k of core. User files are stored on the RP03. the RF11 is used as a swap disk and for 23:46:34 temporary file storage; one RK05 platter contains the system files, and the second contains login and accounting information. In the near future, the system will be expanded to 128k words of core memory with 10 dial in and 10 hard wired terminal lines" 23:46:34 "The base operating system occupies 24.5k words of memory. this system includes a large number of device drivers, and enjoys a generous amount of space for I/O buffers and system tables. A minimal system would require 40k words of hardware memory. It should be noted that Unix also requires the memory management"]] 23:47:01 OH DEAR GOD 23:47:03 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc681 23:47:04 IT' SALL IN CAPITALS 23:47:08 FILEDES = OPEN( "/DEV/NET/HARV",2 ); 23:47:08 IF( FILEDES < 0 ) 23:47:08 PRINTF(" HARVARD IS DEAD"); 23:47:08 ELSE 23:47:08 WHILE( (NBYTES=READ(FILEDES,BUF,80)) > 0 ) 23:47:09 WRITE( 0,BUF,NBYTES ); 4j1 23:47:14 HARVARD IS DEAD 23:47:36 WHY IS RFC 681 ALL IN CPITALS 23:47:38 CAPITALS 23:47:40 elliott: I can't make v7x86 boot after installing :( 23:48:11 Gregor: Probably it requires a bootloader? 23:48:15 http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/install.html 23:48:19 Note that the install program expects to install to an existing V7/x86 hard disk partition. This can be created with any fdisk compatible utility that allows the partition type to be specified. The V7/x86 partition type is 0x72 (114 decimal). 23:48:43 elliott: Yeah, I did that. I wonder how you think I installed without that. 23:48:51 Gregor: Sparkly magic? 23:49:03 Gregor: Try http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/xv6/ :P 23:49:23 "Understanding exec (exec.c) is left as an exercise." 23:49:37 "Xv6 does boot on real hardware" LAME 23:49:50 Gregor: JUST TRY IT MAN IT'S V6 UNIX 23:50:00 # Start the first CPU: switch to 32-bit protected mode, jump into C. 23:50:01 # The BIOS loads this code from the first sector of the hard disk into 23:50:01 # memory at physical address 0x7c00 and starts executing in real mode 23:50:01 # with %cs=0 %ip=7c00. 23:50:02 The first CPU? 23:50:04 Does it do SMP? 23:50:06 In an OS course? 23:50:13 An introductory OS course? 23:50:13 Fuck MIT is hardcore. 23:51:46 # for(;;) exit(); 23:51:46 exit: 23:51:46 movl $SYS_exit, %eax 23:51:46 int $T_SYSCALL 23:51:46 jmp exit 23:51:47 wat 23:53:50 Gregor: xv6 is kinda boring 23:54:25 :P 23:55:47 elliott: http://www.nordier.com/software/c3s.html <-- lawl 23:56:28 elliott: s/is/was/, I'm sure. 23:56:32 Gregor: Don't you mean "awesome"? 23:56:34 pikhq: wut? 23:56:35 At present, binaries are available for FreeBSD. Source code should be available at a future date. D'AWW BOO 23:56:42 pikhq: xv6 is V6 unix reimpl. for modern hardware 23:57:04 elliott: They no longer use SICP for the intro CS course; I'd imagine the rest of it has been dumbed down similarly. 23:57:11 pikhq: No, vx6 is a new thing. 23:57:13 2006. 23:57:15 Russ Cox was involved. 23:57:28 And no, all that was changed is 6.001 or whatever it's called :P 23:57:48 Gregor: What I would like to see is a ring 0-only OS implementing my syscall inlining idea but it pretty much requires a HLL-based OS... 23:58:00 BCPL Compiler 23:58:01 This is a port to V7/x86 of an old BCPL compiler from Martin Richards and the Tripos Research Group at Cambridge University. The port includes both an interpreter and an x86 native code generator. The original software dates from around 1979. 23:58:01 ACK 23:58:01 The Amsterdam Compiler Kit (ACK) was originally developed at the Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam, and had its heyday during the 1980s. Several years ago, it was released under a Berkeley-style license. This port adds support for Solaris x86 and for V7/x86. 23:58:34 elliott: SMP in an intro OS course? Fuck MIT is hardcore. 23:58:50 pikhq: I TOLD YOU 23:58:55 I'm not sure it is though. 23:59:11 Gregor: What I would like to see is a ring 0-only OS implementing my syscall inlining idea but it pretty much requires a HLL-based OS... 23:59:15 anyone have any idea how to do this 23:59:18 without writing a new compiler? 23:59:18 :p 23:59:32 Or, well, without writing a *complicated* new compiler. 23:59:44 (for safety, that is; you can easily do this if you let processes do whatever they want)