←2010-12-20 2010-12-21 2010-12-22→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:07 <Vorpal> elliott, also stairs use a different direction-encoding scheme
00:00:09 <Vorpal> as well
00:00:22 <Vorpal> as ladders YET another one
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00:22:06 <elliott> ifneq "$(findstring $(SPACE),$(CURDIR))" ""
00:22:06 <elliott> $(error Your work area is under a directory whose name contains a space. While it's possible to beat make into working with such directories, it's surprisingly hard and causes more problems than it solves. So, sorry, but don't do that)
00:22:06 <elliott> endif
00:22:16 <elliott> --salma-hayek, another (and much larger, multi-file) make "framework"
00:22:25 <Sgeo> If I fail this course, my GPA will go from 3.86 to a number larger than 3.61
00:22:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you will do it I presume?
00:22:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, GPA?
00:22:56 <elliott> Vorpal: GPA = stupid numeric measure of success in USA
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00:23:02 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
00:23:09 <elliott> Vorpal: And I don't know if I'll do it; it really is a *huge* pain and it's also impossible to use lists like that, I think.
00:23:11 <Sgeo> 4.0 being straight As
00:23:23 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so don't fail it?
00:23:36 <Sgeo> Vorpal, do half a semester's worth of work in one night?
00:24:12 <elliott> Sgeo: On, what, xor swapping in Perl?
00:24:21 <olsner> elliott: make framework == fail, make library == potentially not fail
00:24:23 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so why didn't you?
00:24:37 <elliott> olsner: "framework" in so far as it defines targets like "all" and "clean" for you :P
00:24:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: "GPA" = "Grade Point Average". Essentially an averaging of grades, with A=4.0, B=3.0, C=2.0, D=1.0, F=0.0.
00:24:40 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I missed a deadline, then got scared of checking whether it would be possible to submit
00:24:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I mean, why didn't you work
00:24:44 <Sgeo> And it kind of snowballed
00:24:50 <Vorpal> ...
00:24:52 <elliott> "Scared"?
00:24:54 <elliott> What?
00:24:56 <elliott> Sgeo: ?
00:24:57 <olsner> at least using the framework/library distinction I read in a random blog post a while ago, dunno if there's any official definition of it
00:24:58 <Vorpal> night →
00:25:04 <pikhq> It's a very bizzare "measure" of academic performance.
00:25:13 <elliott> olsner: well with make it's more like... ball of mud vs. ball of mud :D
00:25:17 <pikhq> Especially as the given out grades are essentially arbitrary.
00:25:47 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, scared
00:25:53 <elliott> Sgeo: Howso exactly?
00:25:58 <Sgeo> Of the thing closing so I couldn't submit work
00:26:09 <elliott> "scared of checking whether it would be possible to submit"
00:26:15 <elliott> Sgeo: You said scared of checking.
00:26:17 <elliott> Not scared of it closing.
00:26:32 <Sgeo> Well, I ended up not checking. Or looking at it. Or doing anything else
00:26:37 <elliott> Sgeo: ...why?
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00:27:48 <elliott> Gregor: You... forced a new WebKit build into Safari?
00:27:50 <elliott> WHY GOD WHY
00:27:59 <Sgeo> elliott, early adapter?
00:28:09 <elliott> <Sgeo> Well, I ended up not checking. Or looking at it. Or doing anything else
00:28:09 <elliott> <elliott> Sgeo: ...why?
00:28:11 <elliott> Question not answered yet.
00:28:35 <Sgeo> elliott, because I was scared.
00:28:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Of /what/
00:28:47 <olsner> grades are useless
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00:29:04 <Sgeo> Of it being too late to do anything
00:29:12 <olsner> except for getting into the next level of education where you can achieve: more useless grades
00:29:13 <Sgeo> elliott, you think that this was rational?
00:29:15 <Sgeo> It wasn't
00:29:15 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes, but you said scared of /checking/.
00:29:21 <elliott> No, but irrational is one thing.
00:29:23 <elliott> Completely stupid is another.
00:29:39 <elliott> olsner: but then you get a ph.d.!
00:29:57 * pikhq declares it to be time for more Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 FES
00:30:08 <olsner> elliott: orly? I didn't
00:30:24 <elliott> olsner: then you didn't get enough useless grades
00:30:31 <elliott> pikhq: do what i said :P
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00:31:23 <olsner> eugh, these x86 assembly instructions are so damned long :(
00:32:42 <elliott> olsner: write your OS in MIPS and then just write a MIPS emulator in x86 asm
00:34:14 <olsner> or ARM, I have arbitrarily decided that I like ARM assembly more than MIPS
00:34:21 <olsner> MIPS is easier to decode though
00:35:03 <elliott> olsner: yes but with mips you can, one day, perhaps run on jsmips
00:35:37 <olsner> perhaps!
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00:36:00 <olsner> or maybe look into Alpha which has that PAL thingy
00:36:04 <olsner> which sounds cool
00:36:07 <elliott> olsner: alpha is super-complex :P
00:36:08 <elliott> iirc
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00:37:12 <olsner> hmm, right, not so cool to emulate... but potentially for writing stuff in
00:37:25 <elliott> olsner: write it in MIX, not MMIX, MIX
00:37:36 <olsner> as in, write a microkernel directly in PAL or something
00:37:43 <pikhq> Man. This game has an in-game calendar.
00:37:48 <pikhq> The End of the World is marked on it.
00:38:18 <elliott> "By default, the Make rules should compile and link with ‘-g’, so that executable programs have debugging symbols. Users who don't mind being helpless can strip the executables later if they wish."
00:38:20 <olsner> not sure what you can do with it though, and wikipedia didn't have a complete description so I'll assume there's not a lot of online information about it
00:38:26 <elliott> yeah, I use the debugging symbols in my binaries ALL THE TIME
00:38:43 <elliott> olsner: define pal
00:39:07 <pikhq> 20100131, in fact.
00:39:29 <olsner> elliott: it's a microcodeish thing that allows you to define custom assembler instructions (really function calls into PAL code)
00:39:49 <elliott> olsner: psht, why not overwrite the actual microcode of the x86
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00:39:55 <elliott> to do bytebytejump!
00:40:00 <elliott> pikhq: heh
00:40:17 <olsner> elliott: that would be awesome, if only you could make your own
00:40:28 <olsner> maybe I should get a job at intel or something
00:40:40 <elliott> olsner: you can
00:40:57 <elliott> olsner: linux lets you write to microcode with a file in /proc if it's enabled at kconfig time
00:41:04 <elliott> olsner: for applying microcode updates from intel
00:41:07 <elliott> or something
00:41:12 <elliott> olsner: all you have to do is figure out the format and instructions!
00:41:25 <olsner> ... and intel's private key for microcode updates?
00:42:32 <elliott> olsner: well, let's put it this way
00:42:39 <elliott> olsner: either you can figure it out by reading the linux kernel source,
00:42:46 <elliott> olsner: or /intel's cpus actually check the key themselves/
00:42:56 <elliott> now, the latter would be an amazing feat of silicon
00:42:57 <elliott> but i doubt it
00:43:31 <olsner> as I understand it, what's in linux is just glue code for sending the contents of intel's microcode files into the cpu
00:43:59 <elliott> olsner: so you're saying the cpu actually has silicon/microcode on it to verify a public key?
00:44:00 <elliott> hmm
00:44:00 <olsner> i.e. mostly useless for anyone wanting to construct their own microcode file
00:44:25 <oerjan> elliott: the key wouldn't actually have to be assymetric, would it?
00:44:39 <elliott> oerjan: well no i was about to correct that but decided not to :D
00:44:49 <oerjan> *asymmetric
00:45:36 <olsner> elliott: it could also have plain x86 code that does it - every x86 cpu comes with an x86 cpu after all
00:45:50 <elliott> olsner: well, yes.
00:45:54 <elliott> olsner: TIAS :P
00:46:02 <elliott> (I accept no responsibility if etc.)
00:46:14 <olsner> TIAS?
00:46:19 <elliott> olsner: Try It And Snorkel
00:46:22 <elliott> Or See.
00:46:24 <elliott> But probably snorkel.
00:46:41 <olsner> I do wonder what happens if you send random data as the microcode thing
00:46:50 <elliott> olsner: TIAS!
00:47:01 <elliott> (Tiaras Impede Actually Snorkelling)
00:47:02 * oerjan watches olsner brick his computer
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00:48:43 <elliott> olsner: so how can I make everything depend on the Makefile I wonder
00:48:45 <elliott> you must answer
00:49:13 <olsner> this sounds promising: "The microcode update is volatile and needs to be uploaded on each system boot i.e. it doesn't reflash your cpu permanently, reboot and it reverts back to the old microcode."
00:50:40 <elliott> olsner: it probably won't brick it then! now cat /dev/urandom to it
00:51:04 <elliott> olsner: http://www.urbanmyth.org/microcode/
00:51:08 <elliott> olsner: this may help sorta
00:51:17 <olsner> elliott: yep, found
00:51:44 <elliott> what's the filename for microcode again?
00:51:48 <elliott> i wanna see if i can cat it :P
00:52:13 <olsner> it's a text file, with many sets of updates (for different models, presumably), each is a list of 32-bit hexadecimal values
00:52:31 <olsner> you can: apt-get install intel-microcode :)
00:52:34 <elliott> heh
00:53:10 <elliott> dammit, make needs a
00:54:09 <olsner> most of the data sets seem to have a header (a bunch have 12 words, the last entry in the file has 36 words of header)
00:57:23 <elliott> olsner: please tell me you're actually gonna try writing to the file
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01:01:06 <olsner> first problem: finding out which of all these updates belong to my CPU model
01:01:06 <pikhq> SOON THERE SHALL BE SATAN
01:01:24 <pikhq> AND I SHALL BE INVINCIBLE
01:03:31 <olsner> nice, the code that teases apart the file-of-all-updates into the right per-cpu update is in the kernel
01:04:20 <elliott> heh
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01:07:57 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/useful-make$ ls
01:07:58 <elliott> foo.c foo.d Makefile useful.make
01:07:58 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/useful-make$ rm foo.d
01:07:58 <elliott> rm: cannot remove `foo.d': No such file or directory
01:07:59 <elliott> spot the error
01:08:27 <olsner> foo.d\ \ Makefile?
01:09:36 <elliott> olsner: nope
01:10:43 <elliott> olsner: GUESS AGAIN MY FRIEND
01:18:33 <elliott> olsner: answer: \ foo.d
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01:25:20 <olsner> hmm, looks like I won't have time to do this microcode thingy until after christmas
01:25:45 <Sgeo> According to the academic calendar, the grades are due in a week
01:25:51 <Sgeo> So maybe I can still pull this off
01:28:42 <olsner> (it suddenly involved a reboot because I don't have kernel modules installed for my running kernel)
01:29:22 <elliott> olsner: rebooting takes until after christmas?
01:29:22 <olsner> and microcode loading (which might print some numbers when running) and msr reading (which could also tell me those numbers) both require loading some specific kernel modules
01:29:26 <olsner> elliott: yep
01:29:30 <elliott> :D
01:29:36 <elliott> olsner: can't you just modprobe
01:29:37 <olsner> no time for planned downtime!
01:29:39 <elliott> the one advantage of dynamic modules!
01:29:44 <elliott> they save uptime
01:29:59 <olsner> hmm, using modprobe solves not having the modules installed?
01:30:24 <elliott> olsner: well you can always recompile the kernel, install it, and use modprobe, no>?
01:30:25 <elliott> *no?
01:30:33 <elliott> or even just compile the modules themselves?
01:30:34 <elliott> and modprobe them?
01:30:48 <elliott> Makefile:2: *** commands commence before first target. Stop.
01:30:50 <elliott> SHUT UP YOU PIECE OF SHIT
01:31:24 <elliott> lol it was because i had indentation
01:33:55 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think I put about as much effort into school as a high school dropout, I just happen to be lucky
01:34:35 <olsner> hmm, I could just reinstall the kernel package I had when I last booted :)
01:35:22 <olsner> dmesg after modprobe microcode says: sig=0x10677, pf=0x10, revision=0x703 <-- those are the droids I should be looking for
01:35:53 <pikhq> There's snow in Australia right now.
01:35:58 <pikhq> On the summer. Fucking. Solstice.
01:37:56 <elliott> w.t.f.is.this.
01:38:04 <elliott> define compile
01:38:04 <elliott> @echo $(call quote,$(1))
01:38:04 <elliott> $(2)
01:38:04 <elliott> endef
01:38:04 <elliott> works
01:38:07 <elliott> define compile
01:38:07 <elliott> @echo $(call quote,$(1))
01:38:08 <elliott> @$(2)
01:38:10 <elliott> endef
01:38:12 <elliott> says missing separator
01:38:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, therefore, Global Warming is a lie!
01:38:19 <elliott> AND
01:38:22 <elliott> define compile
01:38:22 <elliott> @echo $(call quote,$(1))
01:38:23 <elliott> @$(2)
01:38:23 <elliott> endef
01:38:25 <elliott> works, but still prints $(2)
01:39:21 <elliott> define c-dep-rule
01:39:21 <elliott> $(1).d : $(1).c ; $(call compile,DEP $(1).c,
01:39:21 <elliott> $(CC.INVOKE) -M -MG \
01:39:21 <elliott> -MT $(call quote,$(2)) \
01:39:21 <elliott> -MF $(call quote,$(1).d) \
01:39:22 <elliott> $(1).c)
01:39:23 <elliott> endef
01:39:25 <elliott> pikhq: behold the ugly
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01:40:57 <elliott> oh, i needed MOAR BACKSLUSHES
01:41:12 <elliott> nope wait avoided
01:42:46 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/useful-make$ make
01:42:47 <elliott> DEP foo.c
01:42:47 <elliott> CC foo.c
01:42:47 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/useful-make$ make clean
01:42:47 <elliott> rm -f 'foo' 'foo.d'
01:42:49 <elliott> pikhq: Oh god this is hideous.
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01:44:14 <olsner> hmm, this thing only contains 2012 bytes of microcode
01:45:04 <oerjan> when the snow crust carries a man at summer solstice, spring will be late
01:45:25 <elliott> olsner: I think they only contain "patches".
01:46:33 <oerjan> (ancient northern norwegian proverb)
01:46:56 <olsner> grr, forgot about how 4-byte ints take 4 bytes each - it's actually 8k :)
01:49:26 <elliott> define c-program-body
01:49:26 <elliott> $(call c-program-rule,$(1))
01:49:26 <elliott> $(call c-dep-rule,$(1),$(1))
01:49:26 <elliott> $(if $(cleaning),,-include $(1).d)
01:49:26 <elliott> endef
01:51:05 <elliott> pikhq: olsner: http://sprunge.us/ejFR useful.make
01:51:07 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/YEbG Makefile
01:51:12 <elliott> Warning: MOST HIDEOUS HACK IN THE HISTORY OF HACKS.
01:51:22 <elliott> FEATURES CODE LIKE
01:51:22 <elliott> quote = '$(subst ','\'',$(1))'#'
01:51:23 <oerjan> "The language for Apex is sort of a combination of TECO and Sam."
01:51:27 <elliott> and
01:51:29 <elliott> define c-dep-rule
01:51:29 <elliott> to-clean += $(1).d
01:51:30 <elliott> $(1).d : $(1).c ; $(call compile,DEP $(1).c,
01:51:30 <elliott> $(cc.invoke) -M -MG \
01:51:30 <elliott> -MT $(call quote,$(2)) \
01:51:30 <oerjan> http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2010/12/19/apex-my-editor-project/
01:51:30 <elliott> -MF $(call quote,$(1).d) \
01:51:32 <elliott> $(1).c)
01:51:34 <elliott> endef
01:51:48 <elliott> oerjan: <3
01:52:07 <elliott> but, dammit, Apex is already a cpressey language!
01:53:32 <elliott> nobody gonna call me out on that? :P
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01:54:15 <elliott> pikhq: not gonna cry at my useful.make?
01:58:06 <oerjan> elliott: google does not seem to support that claim much
01:58:28 <elliott> oerjan: it was actually a language i managed to trick cpressey into semi-designing before he buggered off irc :)
01:58:36 <oerjan> heh
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02:09:01 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/useful-make$ make
02:09:01 <elliott> DEPfoo.c
02:09:01 <elliott> CCfoo.c
02:09:01 <elliott> foo.c: In function ‘main’:
02:09:01 <elliott> foo.c:2: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘}’ token
02:09:02 <elliott> (command was: cc -o 'foo' 'foo.c')
02:09:03 <elliott> make: *** [foo] Error 1
02:09:05 <elliott> aww yeah
02:09:11 <elliott> define do
02:09:12 <elliott> @echo $(call quote,$(SPACE)$(SPACE)$(1)$(TAB)$(2)); $(strip $(3)) || ( \
02:09:12 <elliott> exit=$$$$?; \
02:09:13 <elliott> echo ' (command was: '$(call quote,$(strip $(3)))')'; \
02:09:15 <elliott> exit $$$$exit \
02:09:18 <elliott> )
02:09:19 <elliott> endef
02:09:21 <elliott> I'm a four-dollar programmer.
02:09:23 <elliott> pikhq: ^
02:18:22 <pikhq> elliott: There is no God.
02:18:32 <elliott> pikhq: No -- I am god, see.
02:18:40 <elliott> pikhq: I got the number of $s right on my *second try*.
02:18:43 <pikhq> No, you are Loki.
02:18:49 <elliott> I went straight from $? to $$$$?.
02:18:49 <Sgeo> What language is this?
02:18:52 <elliott> That is how in tune I am with make right now.
02:18:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Make.
02:18:56 <elliott> Sgeo: Make, of the GNU variety.
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02:19:08 * Sgeo decides not to learn it
02:19:16 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not a language, it's a build system.
02:19:25 <elliott> GAHAHAHAHAHA
02:19:34 <Sgeo> Oh, that's alright then
02:19:37 <elliott> NO IT'S NOT
02:19:43 <elliott> IT IS SO, /SO/ NOT ALL RIGHT
02:20:22 <Sgeo> Oh it's "Oh. Well, that's all right then"
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02:22:29 <Sgeo> http://www.american-buddha.com/hitchhikersolong8.htm how is this legal? Or is it not?
02:22:45 <elliott> Clearly it is totally legal.
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02:25:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: Copyright is enforced via civil law. Making it trivial to violate without fear of retribution if you're not a big enough target.
02:28:06 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/STBN useful.make, slightly less horrific version.
02:28:20 <elliott> pikhq: Semi-recommended reading now, as it merely provides insight into using and abusing make, rather than also inflicting mortal pain :P
02:32:05 <elliott> pikhq: No?
02:38:36 * pikhq attempts to gain 20 to 30 levels
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02:39:18 <elliott> pikhq: REEAD IT
02:39:23 <pikhq> I could beat the game, but I want to completely break it first.
02:40:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, what game is this?
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02:40:15 <Sgeo> Wait, didn't I ask previously?
02:40:16 <pikhq> Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 FES
02:40:41 <pikhq> AKA "really fucking hard".
02:40:41 * Sgeo wishes that all the effort that goes into mining Bitcoins was redirected to Folding@Home
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02:46:09 <olsner> ah, I have now found the microcode that matches my CPU (both rev 0x705 and 0x703)
02:46:32 <olsner> (change random parts and go? :D)
02:46:37 <pikhq> The mooks have mediarahan. WHY.
02:46:42 <pikhq> (mediarahan is a full party heal)
02:47:53 <olsner> incidentally, the size of the patch doubled in size between those two revs
02:48:31 <elliott> * Sgeo wishes that all the effort that goes into mining Bitcoins was redirected to Folding@Home
02:48:34 <elliott> i suppose you hate hashcash, too
02:48:50 <Sgeo> elliott, how much effort is put into hashcash, anywhere?
02:48:59 <Sgeo> Does Hashcash even see use?
02:49:02 <elliott> Sgeo: um, very little, just like bitcoins
02:49:24 <Sgeo> People apparently have purchased lots of expensive GPUs for Bitcoins
02:49:30 <elliott> Sgeo: So?
02:50:00 <elliott> fizzie: Would you be upset if I replaced the mcmap makefile with another one that's about 11 lines long, much clearer, and depends on an awful hideous monstrosity file I'm writing called useful.make? :-)
02:52:30 <elliott> real0m1.961s
02:52:30 <elliott> Aha.
02:52:42 <elliott> mcmap's current Makefile is broken and doesn't generate the .ds.
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03:04:25 <elliott> pikhq: So... you ever generated filenames with spaces in them using make?
03:04:39 <pikhq> Not really.
03:05:17 <elliott> pikhq: Darn.
03:05:25 <elliott> pikhq: (I'm trying to fix useful.make's handling of that right now.)
03:14:47 <elliott> pikhq: I should just give up, shouldn't I.
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03:22:15 <elliott> WHY DOES IT DO THIS TO ME
03:22:40 <Sgeo> elliott, because you don't go to sleep at night
03:22:51 <elliott> it's just 3:22 am fuck off
03:23:01 * Sgeo was trying to be humerous
03:23:04 <Sgeo> humouros
03:23:08 <Sgeo> I can't spell today
03:24:07 <Sgeo> Ok, now I'm cracking up
03:26:17 <elliott> pikhq: So... do you happen to know a variant of $(foreach) that works for escaped spaces?
03:30:20 <augur> im afraid to make my videogame :(
03:31:43 <Sgeo> augur, don't turn into me >.> [yes I know that makes no sense]
03:31:51 <pikhq> Not really.
03:34:02 <augur> Sgeo: wat
03:34:21 <Sgeo> augur, crippling fear preventing you from getting something done
03:34:28 <augur> Sgeo: oh, well
03:34:35 <augur> im afraid to do it because i want to EXPERIENCE the game
03:34:50 <augur> and if i MAKE the game, ill be intimately familiar with it from the outset
03:34:58 <augur> there wont be anything wondrous to experience
03:35:37 <Quadrescence> hm which one of you talented young minds wants to write about something interesting on my BLOG
03:36:17 <elliott> Quadrescence: i don't know. such a shame that links can only be clicked once before they expire forever
03:36:23 <elliott> i hope you choose wisely
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03:37:52 <Quadrescence> i know : (
03:38:37 <Sgeo> Wait what?
03:39:48 <Quadrescence> anyway if someone is interested in posting something cool i'm totes down with it but ideally it should probably contain a little math or compsci
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03:41:28 <elliott> oh WRITE about something
03:41:32 <elliott> i thought you said read
03:41:40 <Quadrescence> no write
03:41:48 <elliott> just link to the #esoteric logs
03:41:52 <elliott> instant blog post
03:41:57 <Quadrescence> no #esoteric logs are terrible
03:42:03 <Quadrescence> they are the worst ever
03:42:16 <elliott> i don't think you'll find much support for that statement on #esoteric
03:42:34 <elliott> especially considering how popular logreading is
03:45:30 <Quadrescence> so anyway are there any interested ppl
03:49:08 <elliott> doubtful, i can't recall ever seeing anyone in here do any work voluntarily
03:49:58 <Quadrescence> it's not really work
03:50:18 <Quadrescence> it's an outlet to Talk About Something Interesting
03:50:35 <elliott> through work
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03:52:08 <Quadrescence> elliott: well i don't want someone writing who'd feel like they're doing work
03:57:02 <elliott> pikhq: So this horrible hack turns out to be really nice actually: http://sprunge.us/HBNM
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03:59:53 <elliott> pikhq: Hey ho?
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04:11:13 <pikhq> Hee ho!
04:11:48 <pikhq> elliott: That's pretty nice if you ignore the contents of useful.make.
04:12:51 <elliott> pikhq: It's getting better, actually: http://sprunge.us/MbZN
04:13:05 <elliott> Oh, ignore the commented-out defines...
04:13:12 <pikhq> You're making GNU make usable.
04:13:14 <pikhq> God.
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04:13:36 <kanzure> what iz this place
04:15:03 <pikhq> この場所は皆が英語で話せる所です。けど、僕は英語で話したくないので、日本語で話してる。^_^
04:15:30 <elliott> kanzure: a place of death and diere
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04:15:34 <elliott> and DIEF DIEF DIEF
04:15:35 <kanzure> elliott: lovely
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04:15:42 <elliott> kanzure: or a channel for esoteric programming languages
04:15:43 <elliott> YOU DECIDE
04:16:05 <kanzure> i will, fine
04:16:15 <elliott> kanzure: we're all awaiting your decision!
04:16:28 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently, because you talk in English, you speak Japanese.
04:16:30 <elliott> pikhq: A feat of logic.
04:16:49 <pikhq> elliott: Google Translate fails horribly.
04:17:07 <pikhq> elliott: It turns a negative into a positive and ignores the "want to" suffix.
04:17:10 <elliott> pikhq: :P
04:17:37 <pikhq> "This is a place where everyone speaks English. But, since I don't want to speak English, I'm speaking Japanese."
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04:21:29 <elliott> fizzie: Can I replace the Makefile with http://sprunge.us/HBNM plus a 100-line-or-so-black-box include file? :p
04:26:05 <oerjan> elliott: diere? dief?
04:26:38 <elliott> oerjan: Dief! Dief! Dief!
04:26:52 * oerjan feels severy whooshed
04:26:59 <oerjan> *severely
04:27:47 <elliott> oerjan: dief is the name of a macro in mcmap's code; I just felt it suitably ... die-y. It sounded very Nazi in a wonderful way! (Best sentence. Best sentence.)
04:27:50 <elliott> DIEF!
04:28:02 <elliott> (Pronounced "dye-ff".)
04:28:39 <oerjan> apparently it means "thief" in dutch
04:28:47 <oerjan> but then, no one understand dutch anyhow
04:28:51 <oerjan> *understands
04:29:07 * oerjan hits his fingers for bad spelling
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04:41:44 <pikhq> oerjan: Especially not the Dutch.
04:41:56 <pikhq> It's a big game they play with foreigners.\
04:41:58 <oerjan> that was implied.
04:42:08 <pikhq> Much like Swedish without the bork bork bork.
04:42:37 <oerjan> or the danish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk
04:44:07 <elliott> LOG QUOTE OF THE DAY
04:44:08 <elliott> 16:10:03 * oerjan has _never_ masturbated to the curry-howard isomorphism. should i try it?
04:44:28 * oerjan has no recollection of that quote
04:44:39 <elliott> it was after
04:44:45 <elliott> 16:09:24 <dixon> HEY LOOK GUYS I CAN PRETEND I'M A MATHEMATICIAN BECAUSE I CAN WRITE PROOFS IN COQ fapfapfapfapfap etc
04:44:45 <elliott> 16:09:31 * Sgeo_ should probably learn what the Curry-Howard isomorphism
04:44:46 <elliott> 16:09:33 <Sgeo_> *is
04:44:51 <elliott> (and some other stuff, but)
04:45:42 <oerjan> i am pretty sure i didn't actually try it, though
04:45:55 <elliott> oerjan: you have done a disservice to science.
04:46:37 <Sgeo> Dear Facebook: When I download my data, I want to download all of it. That includes the messages to/from a girl who blocked me.
04:46:44 <coppro> win2 6
04:47:00 <elliott> coppro: TYPE BETTER
04:47:06 <elliott> and lose some windows
04:47:08 <elliott> Sgeo: MEGAN
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04:47:27 <Sgeo> elliott, I thought you hated xkcdsucks
04:47:57 <elliott> xkcd sucks, xkcdsucks is just stupid as of late
04:48:04 <elliott> http://xkcdexplained.com/ is perfect though
04:48:29 <Sgeo> elliott, it seems to have ended
04:48:46 <elliott> Yes, that's part of what's so perfect about it.
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04:51:43 <Sgeo> I do kind of like the latest xkcd, though the "bitches" bit seems overdone
04:51:53 <Sgeo> Randall is now making references to his own comic
04:52:33 <Sgeo> Actually, the latest xkcd is awesome, especially if you subtract the flaws. It's a wonderful message
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04:56:02 <elliott> oerjan: look what you have done:
04:56:04 <elliott> ./08.11.01:01:10:32 * psygnisfive manually masturbates oerjan for feminine hysteria
04:56:04 <elliott> ./08.11.01:01:17:32 * psygnisfive manually masturbates oerjan for fun
04:56:14 <elliott> damn you!
04:56:41 <oerjan> i am _so_ sorry for destroying your innocence in this way
04:56:52 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA*
04:56:57 <elliott> why did it have to be so
04:57:28 <elliott> 01:15:07 * oerjan is not particularly hysterical today, or feminine for that matter.
04:57:29 <elliott> 01:15:38 <oerjan> perhaps.
04:57:29 <elliott> 01:17:22 <psygnisfive> doubly good then!
04:57:29 <elliott> 01:17:32 * psygnisfive manually masturbates oerjan for fun
04:57:29 <elliott> 01:19:37 <oerjan> hey, a deer outside the window
04:57:29 <elliott> 01:26:12 <psygnisfive> cute :D
04:57:31 <elliott> 01:36:12 <pikhq> Yeah, that mundane magic page is one of the most brilliant things I've read in a long time.
04:57:34 <elliott> 01:36:44 <fizzie> Er, misread that as "hey, a deer masturbates outside the window" "cute".
04:57:38 <elliott> 01:37:08 <oerjan> thank you, fizzie.
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04:59:18 <oerjan> not that there is anything wrong with that.
04:59:50 <elliott> oerjan: as a deer, i concur.
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05:00:17 <Sgeo> MY MIND'S EYE! MY POOR MIND'S EYE!
05:01:09 <oerjan> it's just the universe's way to attempt to shock you out of procrastination.
05:02:05 <Sgeo> I may have more time than I thought
05:02:21 <Sgeo> If I don't have as much time as I now think I might have, I might as well accept the 3.6 GPA
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05:16:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: Hardly anybody will care about your GPA.
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05:28:37 <pikhq> Eclipse begin!
05:28:55 <oerjan> wait, now?
05:29:31 <pikhq> Total lunar eclipse tonight; it's penumbral right now.
05:29:47 <pikhq> Should be more obviously visible in about an hour when the moon hits the umbra.
05:29:52 <coppro> wait now
05:29:55 <pikhq> And be total about an hour after that.
05:29:57 <coppro> oh yeah
05:29:58 <coppro> good
05:30:01 <coppro> thought I had my timing off
05:30:13 <oerjan> i know that, i just thought it was several hours until it
05:30:35 <pikhq> The penumbra screws your concept of timing!
05:31:26 <oerjan> sadly the moon here looks like it's about to set :(
05:32:47 <pikhq> oerjan: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Visibility_Lunar_Eclipse_2010-12-21.png According to this, you will just barely be able to totality as the moon sets.
05:33:07 <pikhq> Erm, to see totality
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05:36:03 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to eat
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05:36:21 <Sgeo> I won't miss anything if this is the last time I look at the moon for the next hour, will I?
05:36:29 <coppro> nope
05:36:34 <coppro> the real fun is when you get totality
05:36:42 <coppro> or at least when the umbra hits
05:36:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, the moon will be slowly darkening for the next hour.
05:36:59 <pikhq> Not much to see until it gets close to the umbra, though.
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06:34:01 <augur> eclipse!
06:34:48 <pikhq> Hooray!
06:35:13 <oerjan> ever so slightly
06:35:22 * oerjan just took a trip outside to check
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06:36:59 <pikhq> It's actually pretty nice here.
06:37:01 <pikhq> Straight up.
06:38:06 <oerjan> um i am assuming it cannot look much different in america :D
06:38:21 <pikhq> oerjan: Well, it's just a nice night out, and the moon is straight up.
06:38:49 <pikhq> (no, but seriously, don't you know? The American moon is MUCH better than yours!)
06:39:01 <pikhq> (why else do you think we had to go there?)
06:39:02 <oerjan> AND made of cheese, too
06:39:17 <oerjan> ours is just made of cardboard
06:41:00 <pikhq> Yeah. We go and mine it, because it's the only way for America to get good cheese.
06:41:20 <oerjan> sounds legit to me
06:46:46 <augur> pikhq: where are you??
06:48:39 * Sgeo is still eating :/
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06:54:05 <pikhq> augur: Colorado.
06:54:12 <augur> o
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07:42:42 <pikhq> Totality. :D
07:43:05 <Sgeo> pikhq is Facebook-stalking me =P
07:43:26 <Sgeo> And Mr. Totality is an enemy combatant obviously
07:43:40 <pikhq> But especially you.
07:54:21 <quintopia> pikhq: it's still lighter on one side...will it not get totally red?
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07:55:16 <pikhq> quintopia: It will towards the time of greatest eclipse, 08:16:56 UTC.
07:55:47 <quintopia> ah
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09:53:34 <Ilari> 2.98 /8s in APNIC pool (the allocation threshold is about 2 /8s)...
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11:13:40 <oerjan> <pikhq> Totality. :D
11:13:51 <oerjan> it got too cloudy here :(
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12:37:17 <ais523> hmm, a page linked from reddit turned out to be incapable of scrolling without javascript turned on
12:37:24 <ais523> of all the things that people use javascript for, that's pretty weird
12:37:33 <ais523> (I opened it in w3m, in the end, so it wouldn't use the CSS either)
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12:50:59 <Ilari> Javascript or is it javashit? :-)
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12:52:32 <ais523> Ilari: there's nothing fundamentally wrong with JavaScript (in fact, it's a very nice language, although the DOM is irritating), but people try to use it in all sorts of contexts where they probably shouldn't
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15:56:27 <elliott> http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/12/21/woke-kids-lunar-eclipse/ ;; apparently this is what passes for an article these days
15:57:07 <elliott> erm then again clicking a random link on that page only seems to show a tagline for me too, so maybe Fox don't want me to see their articles for fear of mocking them :D
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16:13:25 <Ilari> "Times like these will never happen again.". Err... TLEs happen about once per 17 months on average (oh, and there's apparently two next year) and are visible from about half of the planet at once...
16:14:07 <j-invariant> misinformation in the news
16:14:19 <j-invariant> that's something that will happen again!
16:16:21 <elliott> Ilari: yeah I think there's more article but the server isn't showing it
16:16:33 <elliott> nope wait
16:16:39 <elliott> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/21/report-evacuated-suspicious-odor/ was just a tagline before but it isn't now
16:16:47 <elliott> so heh, the entire article is "Times like these will never happen again."
16:17:05 <elliott> maybe he means that the democrats and gays are going to band together and blow up the moon
16:17:16 <j-invariant> elliott: I got a decent chunk of cats done in coq now
16:18:00 <j-invariant> the proofs are awful though, don't know how to sort that
16:18:04 <elliott> j-invariant: This many? http://www.stitching-dreams.co.uk/images/Bundle%20of%20KittensMed.jpg
16:18:12 <elliott> More seriously though, cool.
16:18:23 <Ilari> For some reason I can't seem to access anything under nasa.gov (it won't resolve).
16:18:23 <elliott> I forget why I abandoned my impl. based on that one paper...
16:18:25 <j-invariant> hehe
16:18:40 <elliott> I do know that whenever I start doing algebraic structures, it fails round about at ... what point was it
16:18:48 <j-invariant> Im going on the catsters youtube videos
16:18:51 <Ilari> Doing the resolutions manually works, no idea why the recursive nameserver can't resolve it.
16:19:11 <elliott> I think it was the first one that was just two other structures combined
16:19:16 <elliott> I think all my operations became ambiguous or something
16:19:30 <j-invariant> elliott: well that's useful actually - if you know what it is that made you give up I could try it out (too see if what I have falls apart or not)
16:19:35 <elliott> but it worked *really* nicely before that with coercions and all ... can't remember if I ever did it with categories though
16:19:50 <elliott> j-invariant: well, that was when i gave up doing algebraic structures, not categories :)
16:20:01 <elliott> j-invariant: An implementation of the structures with categories would be interesting, though.
16:20:25 <elliott> Preferably with coercions from stronger structures to weaker ones, and then defining "op" on e.g. magmas
16:20:31 <elliott> so that all calls to op downcast the structure or whatever
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16:20:34 <co345at_office_i> dude u want this http://ihaxor.hpage.com/get_file.php?id=911760&vnr=411870
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16:20:35 <j-invariant> I think I would need an example of algebra done inside category theory to get me started though
16:20:35 <elliott> well
16:20:36 <elliott> you do like
16:20:44 <Ilari> For some reason it started to wrk...
16:21:05 <elliott> Definition {A : Magma} (x : A) (y : A) := op A x y
16:21:08 <elliott> I think
16:21:09 <elliott> erm
16:21:12 <elliott> Definition opp {A : Magma} (x : A) (y : A) := op A x y
16:21:18 <elliott> oh, to hell with it, I've forgotten; I'll try again!
16:21:26 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah i'm not sure how to do it with categories really
16:21:42 <elliott> j-invariant: I have a feeling that Coq-with-categories would end up being a lot of fluff to get it cooperating with the categories
16:21:45 <Ilari> And yes, NASA does confirm the two TLEs for next year... :->
16:22:42 <elliott> hacking a complex makefile while writing Coq ... this can only go well
16:22:44 <j-invariant> elliott: proofs are really verbose - I think I have to have my categories act as a model of an abstract theory or something, so all the mess doesn't leak in to proofs
16:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> foo
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16:23:19 <elliott> j-invariant: you could do that thing where you declare a model with axioms and then you "prove" them according to a concrete structure
16:23:23 <elliott> though i've forgotten how to do that in coq
16:23:26 <elliott> something with sections or something
16:23:26 <elliott> or modules
16:23:38 <j-invariant> I'll look into that
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16:24:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's Section <name>., then some Variable declarations, then End. IIRC.
16:24:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: right, yes
16:24:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Where each Variable is an axiom.
16:24:48 <elliott> then you can code everything to the "axioms" which you have actually proved according to the gnarly concrete structure
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16:28:03 <oerjan> Ilari: um the unusual thing is supposedly that the eclipse is on the same day as the solstice (in american time zones)
16:29:07 * elliott takes a look at <co345at_office_i> dude u want this http://ihaxor.hpage.com/get_file.php?id=911760&vnr=411870
16:29:10 <oerjan> i read something about this only happening every 500 years.
16:29:22 <elliott> well it's a folder called psyBNC2.3.1 but that actually contains what looks like mIRC :P
16:30:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I fail to see the actual *significance* of that.
16:30:12 <oerjan> !haskell 17/12 * 365
16:30:39 <elliott> oh j-invariant left i was just about to say something i remembered
16:30:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's news!
16:30:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, extremely improbable astronomical things happen pretty regularly, since there are a lot of them.
16:30:58 <oerjan> !echo hi
16:30:59 <EgoBot> hi
16:31:07 <oerjan> !haskell 17/12 * 365
16:31:08 <EgoBot> 517.0833333333334
16:31:53 <oerjan> Gregor: i think it would be somehow nice if the timeout stuff didn't include the time EgoBot needs to drag itself out of bed, is my suspicion
16:32:51 <elliott> :D
16:33:03 <elliott> oerjan: you see, botte does everything really quickly ...
16:34:05 <elliott> ecord Magma := mkMagma {
16:34:05 <elliott> M : Set;
16:34:05 <elliott> o : M -> M -> M
16:34:05 <elliott> }.
16:34:05 <elliott> Coercion Magma_to_Set (m : Magma) : Set := M m.
16:34:10 <elliott> that's the basic idea
16:34:12 <elliott> except *Record
16:34:14 <oerjan> no it doesn't, because it's not _here_
16:34:29 <elliott> except that since Coq is stupid we need
16:34:36 <elliott> Record Magma := mkMagma {
16:34:36 <elliott> magmaM : Set;
16:34:36 <elliott> magmaO : M -> M -> M
16:34:36 <elliott> }.
16:34:43 <elliott> because otherwise we get clashes later, because coq is a douchebag
16:34:47 <elliott> so moving on, anonymous log-reader,
16:35:30 <elliott> Record Magma := mkMagma {
16:35:30 <elliott> magmaM : Set;
16:35:30 <elliott> magmaO : magmaM -> magmaM -> magmaM
16:35:30 <elliott> }.
16:35:30 <elliott> Coercion Magma_to_Set (m : Magma) : Set := magmaM m.
16:35:31 <elliott> Definition o {M : Magma} (a : M) (b : M) :=
16:35:33 <elliott> magmaO M a b.
16:35:35 <elliott> see that??? BEYOOTIFUL
16:35:47 <elliott> this is the point where i get bored for a while
16:38:12 <Vorpal> <oerjan> no it doesn't, because it's not _here_ <-- haven't you realised that elliott does not know the difference between present and future tense by now?
16:38:32 <oerjan> ah yes, timeless elliott
16:38:32 <elliott> that's disturbingly close to the truth :)
16:39:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I would say it *is* the truth based on the data we have
16:39:13 <elliott> fuck off, I'm battling Coq
16:39:25 <Vorpal> also very elliottish
16:43:28 <elliott> YES IT FUCKING WORKS
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16:44:17 <elliott> what, why are you complaining
16:44:18 <elliott> dammit coq
16:44:43 <elliott> "Error: Notation _ * _ is already defined at level 40 with arguments
16:44:43 <elliott> at level 40, at next level while it is now required to be at level 40
16:44:43 <elliott> with arguments at next level, at next level."
16:44:59 <elliott> i am pretty sure those two are equivalent :D
16:45:04 <elliott> oh wait no
16:45:09 <elliott> the first one is at level 40 i think
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16:52:58 <elliott> pikhq: "The convention of using the same suffix ‘.l’ for all Lex files regardless of whether they produce C code or Ratfor code makes it impossible for make to determine automatically which of the two languages you are using in any particular case."
16:54:53 <elliott> "Ratfor was invented by the people who invented C. After inventing C, they realized that they had made a mistake (too many semicolons) and they fixed it in Ratfor, although it was too late for C." --Stanford
16:55:03 <elliott> (Okay, so not STANFORD THEMSELVES.)
16:56:00 <Vorpal> elliott, scapegoat question
16:56:08 <elliott> I'll try.
16:56:37 <Vorpal> elliott, have I understood it correctly in that it allows you to, for example, filter commits by some commiters (such as esr)
16:56:50 <elliott> Not "really".
16:56:53 <elliott> Sort of. Kinda.
16:57:35 <elliott> I mean, yes, you could use a script to whitelist every non-esr commit, and in a hypothetical infinitely-flexible version, you could define a branch to be "not-authored-by-esr", but in the version I'm planning to implement, no, there is no native support for that.
16:58:03 <elliott> I think branches will end up as, in my version, explicitly-whitelisted or automatic, to control whether patches trickle in without being explicitly pulled in.
16:58:44 <Vorpal> elliott, ah. Because based on that rather simplistic explanation there are some obvious issues. Trivial one being, committer a writes a function foo, but you filter him. In another file, committer b (which you white list) changes something to call this function foo.
16:59:02 <Vorpal> (and the obvious issue arise)
16:59:12 <elliott> for x in ; do \
16:59:12 <elliott> @echo ' RM$x'; rm -f $x || ( exit=$$?; echo ' (command was: rm -f $x)'; exit $$exit ); \
16:59:12 <elliott> done
16:59:14 <elliott> Well that's not right ...
16:59:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Obviously patches to patches you don't have don't get applied.
16:59:43 <Vorpal> elliott, so the compile will then break as one would expect
16:59:50 <elliott> No shit, sherlock.
16:59:52 <elliott> But no, what you describe is not a feature of scapegoat at all, it is merely something that can be done with an extended, general implementation.
17:00:06 <elliott> Therefore don't tell me how useless it is, I /know/ how useless it is; good thing it's not a feature, then.
17:00:28 <elliott> It's simply that if you let branches be predicates for whether a patch is accepted, then
17:00:28 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I saw you discuss this some days ago with ais.
17:00:35 <elliott> (\p => p.author != (hash of esr))
17:00:41 <elliott> is a valid branch, albeit one with rather few files in it.
17:00:48 <elliott> (given C-INTERCAL, which he wrote most of)
17:00:49 <Vorpal> hah
17:01:54 <elliott> The idea was that @tip would point to a complex formula specifying "the most recent (or was it oldest?) maximally-merged branch".
17:02:12 <elliott> But at that point you've got a full programming language and at least for now I've vetoed it, and will special-case @tip.
17:02:43 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, but TC branch description sounds fun!
17:02:52 <elliott> It would definitely not be TC.
17:05:23 <elliott> http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/dreamjobs/dreamjobs5.html Ouch.
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17:09:06 <elliott> WHAT THE FUCK MAKE
17:09:11 <elliott> HOW CAN A VARIABLE /LOSE/ VALUES
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17:09:35 <elliott> to_clean += $(1) $(2:.c=.o) $(2:.c=.d)
17:09:41 <elliott> fff
17:09:42 <elliott> OH
17:09:45 <elliott> it's to-clean
17:09:47 <elliott> not to_clean
17:10:38 <oerjan> underscoring the difference
17:15:07 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/gZOC
17:15:21 <elliott> pikhq: useful.make -- now with implicit rules and more readability!
17:16:38 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, I was just about to whine at you for making a curses dependency, but I see you've made it readline.
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17:41:03 <elliott> Vorpal: quick! what's the variable name of the tree in which we're out-of-tree-building to?
17:41:11 <elliott> BUILDDIR is ugly because of the repeated D
17:44:44 <Vorpal> elliott, ANITVPATH?
17:44:54 <elliott> Vorpal: wut.
17:44:54 <Vorpal> (since iirc VPATH works kind of the other way)
17:45:12 <Vorpal> (well, not really)
17:45:24 <elliott> *ANTI, then
17:45:32 <Vorpal> oh
17:45:33 <Vorpal> right
17:45:38 <Vorpal> didn't notice the typo
17:45:40 <elliott> yeah I'm not sure whether to get source files from another directory, or to put build files in another directory
17:45:52 <elliott> "GNU Standard" is to put build files in . and look for sources elsewhere, but that's a bit inconvenient
17:46:01 <elliott> as opposed to "make" by default putting stuff into build/
17:46:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it is kind of useful when you have a configure script and you have different builds against the same tree
17:46:25 <elliott> Vorpal: "make BUILDDIR=x" "make BUILDDIR=y"
17:46:26 <elliott> etc
17:46:48 <Vorpal> elliott, make DEBUG=1 BUILDDIR=debug vs. cd debug && make
17:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: also, the Makefile would have to figure out what directory it's in to figure out where all the files are, which just screams "MORE GNU MAKE FUNCTION FUN" to me :)
17:46:56 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, make DEBUG=1 BUILDDIR=debug vs. cd debug && make
17:46:57 <elliott> you mean
17:47:06 <elliott> make DEBUG=1 BUILDDIR=debug vs. cd debug && ../configure --enable-debug && make
17:47:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a bit messier without a configure script yes
17:47:11 <elliott> first one sounds nicer to me
17:47:16 <Vorpal> elliott, the thing with configure is that you do it once
17:47:20 <Vorpal> then just make in the future
17:47:25 <Vorpal> as you update the version control
17:47:36 <elliott> Vorpal: 99.999999999999999999999% of times that's not what happens.
17:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is when you are a developer
17:47:52 <elliott> because the makefile changes. or because you remove the source tree. or any number of reasons. (yes, i know /you/ don't0
17:47:53 <elliott> *don't)
17:47:55 <elliott> as a developer --
17:48:02 <elliott> it's easiest just to keep the default build/ directory.
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17:48:07 <elliott> hell, you could even make DESTDIR=debug by default if DEBUG is on
17:48:09 <Vorpal> elliott, as an end user, sure it isn't
17:48:12 <elliott> and then
17:48:13 <elliott> $ make
17:48:13 <elliott> vs.
17:48:18 <elliott> erm
17:48:18 <elliott> and then
17:48:20 <elliott> $ make debug=1
17:48:21 <elliott> vs.
17:48:24 <Vorpal> elliott, quite
17:48:24 <elliott> $ cd debug && make
17:48:32 <elliott> the former is actually more convenient because you don't have to cd back afterwards
17:48:37 <elliott> (if you want to)
17:48:45 <Vorpal> elliott, often you want do run the binary though
17:48:48 <Vorpal> if you are a developer
17:48:50 <elliott> Vorpal: build/mcmap :P
17:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I tend to not trust that for anything large. Imagine: wesnoth: can not find data files
17:49:24 <elliott> Vorpal: and for users, "$ cd mcmap && make" is much nicer than "$ cd mcmap && mkdir build && make -f ../Makefile"
17:49:32 <elliott> which is how it'd look in this case
17:49:40 <Vorpal> well
17:49:41 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e. programs that need to be installed to be tested
17:49:43 <elliott> (i.e. bad programs)
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17:49:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well, they tend to often run from the build dir too
17:50:05 <Vorpal> because the devs get fed up with installing when testing
17:50:07 <elliott> Vorpal: add a "make test" target
17:50:11 <elliott> .PHONY: test
17:50:18 <elliott> test: mcmap ; cd build; ./mcmap
17:50:21 <Vorpal> elliott, that is probably for the regression test suite
17:50:23 <elliott> *: build/mcmap
17:50:26 <elliott> Vorpal: try-it-out ffs
17:50:32 <elliott> mcmap doesn't even have an install target :P (although if I can convince fizzie to let me replace the Makefile with one using useful.make, it'll automagically get one)
17:50:32 <Vorpal> elliott, also mcmap need options
17:50:40 <elliott> Vorpal: oh jesus shut up and write a shell script
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17:50:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't say your solution was bad
17:51:01 <Vorpal> elliott, just that the alternative isn't as bad as you make it out to be
17:51:07 <elliott> Sure. But it is without a configure script.
17:51:14 <elliott> gnu make is so broken :( You can't make targets depend on variable values.
17:51:15 <elliott> as in
17:51:19 <elliott> %.o: %.c $(CFLAGS)
17:51:19 <elliott> as in
17:51:23 <Vorpal> elliott, sometimes a configure script is the sanest option
17:51:24 <elliott> if CFLAGS change, the objects need rebuilding
17:51:28 <elliott> Vorpal: not for mcmap.
17:51:34 <Vorpal> elliott, well duh
17:51:39 <elliott> <elliott> if CFLAGS change, the objects need rebuilding
17:51:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I was thinking larger thing.
17:51:45 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, no, configure is never the right option.
17:51:54 <Vorpal> elliott, Gregor disagrees
17:52:00 <Vorpal> so does pikhq
17:52:13 <elliott> actually, pikhq hates autotools almost as much as i do.
17:52:24 <elliott> Vorpal: but nice argument from authority...
17:52:26 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but he think it is the least of bad alternatives iirc
17:52:33 <elliott> Vorpal: no, he likes makefiles.
17:52:38 <elliott> Gregor: If you ever want to update me on your current opinions... just let me know.
17:52:47 <elliott> Gregor: After all, you are like unto a god, and everything you say is immediately entered into my mind.
17:53:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I pretty much agree with Gregor's arguments for why configure is sometimes good. That is why I refer to him instead of restating them
17:53:19 <Vorpal> since I know he told you before
17:53:41 <Vorpal> not appeal to authority thus
17:53:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Actually, he said configure is better than SCons, CMake, and plain-untailored-Makefiles when stuff is semi-complex and needs to be portable.
17:53:48 <elliott> This is because:
17:53:53 <elliott> 1. SCons sucks ass.
17:53:58 <Vorpal> sure, when you *can* avoid configure that is a good idea
17:54:03 <elliott> 2. CMake sucks ass.
17:54:06 <Vorpal> I do not love configure either
17:54:13 <elliott> 3. Retards can't write Makefiles.
17:54:20 <Vorpal> but in some cases it is the least bad of options
17:54:28 <elliott> Only if you ignore the right option.
17:54:32 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you crosscompile with useful.make?
17:54:45 <Vorpal> elliott, specifically a cross toolchain
17:54:46 <elliott> Vorpal: make cc=your-crosscompiling-gcc-name
17:54:48 <Vorpal> (not canadian)
17:55:10 <elliott> Vorpal: But, uhh, if you're going to form opinions based on what is essentially a 115-line proof of concept ...
17:55:18 <Vorpal> elliott, of course not
17:55:23 <elliott> It does everything mcmap's current Makefile does, plus some.
17:55:30 <Vorpal> elliott, mhm
17:55:39 <elliott> Now why the fuck is it not regenerating the .ds at this point ...
17:55:41 <elliott> *not regenerating
17:56:01 <Vorpal> bbl
17:57:02 <fizzie> elliott: Right, the curses bits are there just because I used the curses attempt as a basis for the readline thing. Anyway, basically what it does is to use rl_replace_line("", 0); rl_redisplay(); to make the "readline area" contain just "> ", then wipe that with \r\e[K, print out the output, then rl_insert_text() the old text back and rl_forced_update_display() it on screen. (But since messing around with the readline buffer isn't exactly safe while some code
17:57:02 <fizzie> is inside readline(), I had to use that alternative, callback-driven interface.)
17:57:57 <elliott> fizzie: Rite.
17:58:19 <fizzie> I would have to see the useful.make before I can make any sensible decisions; the current Makefile isn't exactly complicated either. (Especially if you get rid of the build-it-with-"-combine -fwhole-program" parts, which would I think happen also with the include useful.make solution.)
17:58:39 <elliott> fizzie: The current Makefile has such features as "doesn't actually build the .d files properly".
17:58:50 <elliott> (This is why useful.make seemed to be almost half a second slower at building the whole program.)
17:59:02 <elliott> Or at least it didn't build them properly last time I checked.
18:00:15 <elliott> (useful.make isn't exactly the *prettiest* thing -- GNU Make metaprogramming, yay -- but it doesn't do anything "awful", it's just a bit ugley. It's something I'm planning to maintain separately and beyond mcmap, though, so it's not like I've made the Makefile simpler by just shoving it into another file. It's more generic than that.)
18:00:21 <elliott> Also this will give an install target for free.
18:00:30 <elliott> And do out-of-tree builds.
18:01:03 <fizzie> Well, "whatever". As long as the build system doesn't get in the way.
18:02:02 <fizzie> I did switch from pkg-config zlib to just plain '-lz', since that is such a quasi-standard thing, and my work-workstation didn't have zlib installed inside pkg-config either.
18:03:26 <elliott> Oh, I dropped the debug target for "make debug=1", but to be fair, "make debug" was pretty slow because of the recursion.
18:03:43 <fizzie> Oh, and I did some protocol-updates based solely on that one wiki; I was a bit suspicious of one of their changes. Will have to test those new things tonight.
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18:05:00 <fizzie> I definitely don't care about the build system speed, given the size of the project. (So far things like "make clean; make debug" have been <2 seconds.)
18:05:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that mc bug with peaceful in single player you mentioned
18:05:08 <Vorpal> did you confirm actual monsters?
18:05:17 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I'm too much of a pussy to.
18:05:31 <elliott> j-invariant: I remembered how I did the structures.
18:05:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't seen anything about it elsewhere
18:06:12 <fizzie> (Food now.)
18:07:18 <j-invariant> elliott: want to have a look at my draft?
18:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it was on peaceful?
18:08:31 <j-invariant> I should try and define a group
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18:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe you changed it by mistake
18:08:41 <Vorpal> or a bug changed it
18:09:10 <elliott> j-invariant: sure
18:09:13 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it was peaceful.
18:09:34 <elliott> j-invariant: Record Magma := mkMagma {
18:09:34 <elliott> magmaM : Set;
18:09:34 <elliott> magmaO : magmaM -> magmaM -> magmaM
18:09:34 <elliott> }.
18:09:34 <elliott> Coercion Magma_to_Set (m : Magma) : Set := magmaM m.
18:09:35 <elliott> Definition op {M : Magma} (a : M) (b : M) :=
18:09:36 <elliott> magmaO M a b.
18:09:38 <elliott> Infix "*" := op (at level 40, no associativity).
18:09:40 <elliott> j-invariant: that's the basic idea
18:09:42 <elliott> then you do things like
18:09:44 <elliott> Record Semigroup := mkSemigroup {
18:09:46 <elliott> semigroupMagma : Magma;
18:09:48 <elliott> semigroupIsAssociative :
18:09:50 <elliott> forall a b c : semigroupMagma,
18:09:52 <elliott> a * (b * c) = (a * b) * c
18:09:54 <elliott> }.
18:09:56 <elliott> (that code doesn't work because * is already defined in coq, but whatever)
18:10:44 <elliott> j-invariant: but iirc this falls down later
18:10:48 <elliott> j-invariant: but yeah i'd like to see your draft
18:10:49 <j-invariant> I have been putting up with things like magmaO M a (magmaO M b c) everywhere
18:10:54 <elliott> heh
18:11:13 <elliott> j-invariant: the nice thing about the coercions is, you can have "Foo" be a InsertStructureHere with all the proofs bundled in and the like,
18:11:16 <elliott> j-invariant: but also say (x : Foo)
18:11:21 <elliott> because of the coercion to Set
18:11:56 <j-invariant> http://coq.pastebin.com/1jd3Ey51
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18:13:26 <elliott> looking
18:14:09 <elliott> j-invariant: you've certainly got much further than i ever did
18:14:16 <elliott> worries me slightly that the category definitions are a bit ugly though
18:14:27 <elliott> but wow
18:14:39 <j-invariant> I'm surprised myself, I didn't expect to be able to defined CAT
18:15:05 <elliott> remind me to photoshop a picture of a cat to be made out of smaller versions of itself sometime
18:15:07 <elliott> cat of small cats
18:15:18 <elliott> IIRC the paper I read defined Cat
18:15:34 <elliott> very nice though
18:17:35 <j-invariant> I wonder if I keep going with it.. if it will not collapse
18:17:55 <elliott> j-invariant: I hope not, it'd be awesome if you could get the algebraic structures on top of that... then it might be a decent alternative to the crappy coq stdlib
18:18:18 <j-invariant> yeah notice I use -nois which means nothing from Coq library gets used
18:18:39 <elliott> yeah ... for some reason that didn't undefine the * notation for me though when i did those structures just now
18:19:14 <elliott> fizzie: Pushed the new build system; if you don't look at useful.make it's all nice and pretty. "make" does an OPTOMIZED(tm) build (well, just -O3; -funroll-loops is probably not helpful), "make debug=1" does a DEBUGGERISED(tm) build. "make clean" works, "make install" doesn't exist right now, "make objdir=foo" does what you'd expect, and you can set CFLAGS and the like if you don't know what cc.flags is.
18:19:32 <elliott> fizzie: It niceifies the build output by default, but prints out the full command whenever anything goes wrong; V=1 makes it print everything (and this is automatically turned on if you use -n.)
18:19:45 <elliott> "make clean all" fails to generate the .ds properly due to an obscure bug, but I'm looking into that now.
18:19:59 <elliott> And I used -lz rather than pkg-configging zlib.
18:20:05 <elliott> It builds into build/ by default.
18:21:28 <elliott> (But "make objdir=." does work, if you're crazy.)
18:21:57 <Vorpal> elliott, can't reproduce the issue you mentioned on peaceful in my games
18:22:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it /was/ near a mob spawner.
18:22:14 <j-invariant> elliott: but if you look at say lines 370 to 417. All that crap does is prove that Ff o (eta o nu) = (Ff o eta) o nu = (eta o Gf) o nu = eta o (Gf o nu) = eta o (nu o Hf)
18:22:17 <elliott> Because my STAIRCASE MINE IS ABOVE A MOB SPAWNER AAAA.
18:22:21 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, don't know anyone near me
18:22:29 <elliott> Vorpal: *any one :p
18:22:37 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah, it is a bit verbose ... but
18:22:39 <Vorpal> elliott, nor any two
18:22:45 <elliott> j-invariant: at least you proved it, I never got anywhere near that with mine
18:23:24 <j-invariant> crazy idea: Maybe you could make a new category theory proof language... which uses Coq under the hood?
18:23:45 <j-invariant> it could even just be commutative diagrams
18:24:48 <elliott> Vorpal: No sounds so far...
18:24:56 <elliott> j-invariant: that would be nice ... sounds complicated though :)
18:25:02 <j-invariant> yeah
18:25:06 <Vorpal> bbl
18:25:08 <elliott> j-invariant: it'd be nice if category theory turns out to be a useful basis for "typed" computation
18:25:17 <elliott> j-invariant: like how intuitionistic logic is useful for that, via type theory
18:25:23 <elliott> and lambda calculus
18:25:47 <elliott> Vorpal: what scares me a bit is that i have various tunnels of varying litness..
18:26:02 <j-invariant> yeah I don't see how that's possible because all the functions in category theory are just A --> B.. that's my ignorance though
18:26:16 <elliott> j-invariant: it is a bit hard to imagine yeah
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18:31:07 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
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18:31:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, can a spider spawned by a mob spawner manage to trigger off do-a-slurp-sound before it evaporates?
18:32:03 <j-invariant> elliott: do you happen to know what's the "simplest nontrivial theorem" for monoids?
18:32:08 <Vorpal> elliott, no clue
18:32:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I never seen them show up either like that
18:32:25 <elliott> j-invariant: alas no
18:32:26 <j-invariant> I'll try and define moniod but I don't know what to say about them
18:32:38 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid#Relation_to_category_theory :-)
18:32:50 <elliott> "Likewise, monoid homomorphisms are just functors between single object categories. So this construction gives an equivalence between the category of (small) monoids Mon and a full subcategory of the category of (small) categories Cat. Similarly, the category of groups is equivalent to another full subcategory of Cat."
18:32:52 <elliott> j-invariant: prove that :P
18:34:08 <j-invariant> huh I have n oidea how to define a subcategory..
18:34:48 <elliott> j-invariant: maybe it's just (ob A) subtype-of (ob B)?
18:34:49 <elliott> i think the name was ob
18:34:50 <elliott> i forget
18:34:53 <elliott> the type of the category
18:39:26 <j-invariant> ah that could work
18:39:47 <elliott> j-invariant: i guess you might need to include that the operations are equivalent but i forget so
18:39:49 <elliott> uh
18:39:56 <elliott> basically the main thing would be having the types be subtypes i think
18:40:06 <j-invariant> "operations are equivalent" <-- Functor :D
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18:44:52 <Vorpal> elliott, beta is laggy as fuck
18:44:54 <Vorpal> elliott, on a local game
18:45:04 <elliott> Vorpal: pretty, but restarting it helps
18:45:08 <elliott> i keep opening minecraft twice by mistake
18:45:15 <Vorpal> uh?
18:45:20 <elliott> *pretty laggy,
18:45:23 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it is way slower than alpha
18:45:32 <elliott> Vorpal: now i've fallen into a cavern and there's diamond but i'm busy running around scared shitless putting torches everywhere because oh god what if there really are monsters
18:45:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I found no indications of that
18:46:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the game is from pre-halloween btw (not that it should matter)
18:47:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I considered doing some mega scale engineering in that game, smoothing out the discontinuities somewhat, at least for the areas I visit
18:47:12 <elliott> Vorpal: there is also gold though... and iron ... and diamond
18:47:24 <Vorpal> you fell?
18:47:25 <Vorpal> elliott, how?
18:47:25 <elliott> i have 64+33 coal though so I can come back to that
18:47:36 <Vorpal> elliott, did you dig right below yourself
18:47:38 <elliott> Vorpal: turns out when i removed a block to make my stairs go down further
18:47:39 <elliott> no
18:47:41 <elliott> i just didn't notice
18:47:44 <elliott> since it was obscured by darkness
18:47:55 <Vorpal> elliott, so why didn't you use torches?
18:48:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I was about to place them FFS
18:48:30 <elliott> it looked solid
18:48:33 <elliott> heh redstone, too bad i don't need it
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18:48:59 <elliott> SERIOUSLY? a single diamond?
18:49:01 <elliott> fuck y'all
18:49:27 <elliott> shietloads of redstone though ... and coal
18:49:45 <elliott> but i have enough coal for now
18:50:16 <Vorpal> elliott, lightstone on bottom of deep sea is pretty from the surface
18:50:22 <Vorpal> like random lights spread out
18:50:24 <elliott> heh
18:50:26 <Vorpal> especially nice at night
18:50:42 <elliott> and uh there's also water and lava and stuff so I bet these caverns branch a lot but I have lots of iron and a single diamond
18:50:44 <elliott> so this is enough forn ow
18:50:46 <elliott> *for now
18:50:53 <Sgeo> I have until Sunday
18:51:19 <elliott> note to self: bunch of torches + torch on cobblestone = entrance to cavern
18:51:42 <elliott> more gold! wish gold was useful in any way at all
18:51:43 <Vorpal> elliott, idea to make creeper safe: small island, middle of ocean, 10 high obsidian tower. 3x3 or such. With ladder inside
18:51:46 <elliott> apart from like, compass
18:51:48 <Vorpal> elliott, and steel door
18:51:52 <Vorpal> elliott, at both ends
18:51:54 <elliott> Vorpal: heh
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18:51:59 <Vorpal> elliott, then at top, a floating castle
18:52:05 <Vorpal> or at least
18:52:12 <Vorpal> structurally unsound
18:52:18 <Vorpal> elliott, the castle need not be obsidian
18:52:34 <Vorpal> which saves on both annoyance and "fuuuu that was misplaced"
18:52:45 <Vorpal> well, probably make it obsidian just near the shaft
18:52:56 <Vorpal> elliott, do you think this is safe?
18:53:41 <elliott> Vorpal: well, the castle would need to have no holes in the top.
18:53:47 <elliott> *on the top
18:53:53 <elliott> and you'd still see enemies if it had a glass ceiling :)
18:54:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you could cover it with torches on top
18:54:08 <Vorpal> without too much issues
18:54:44 <Vorpal> elliott, but obviously, and exit there would use doors
18:54:53 <Vorpal> (iron probably)
18:55:13 <Vorpal> elliott, still it is a lot less annoying than a obsidian fort on the ground
18:55:16 <elliott> what's to stop a creeper getting in the obsidian fort? or is the top closed?
18:55:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes
18:55:39 <Vorpal> elliott, there could be doors to the top but as I said it would be floating above any ground
18:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: what's to stop a creeper getting on top, and blowing up your castle's connection to the obsidian?
18:55:43 <Vorpal> elliott, and it would be lit on top
18:55:44 <elliott> wouldn't matter, but
18:55:52 <Vorpal> elliott, how could it
18:55:57 <elliott> Vorpal: spawning there
18:56:04 <Vorpal> elliott, but it is LIT ON TOP!
18:56:08 <Vorpal> as I said several times
18:56:09 <Deewiant> Regarding the slowness, from Notch's Twitter: "I have a scary feeling the lag some people get might be leaf decay. Grraaaaahhh!!"
18:56:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it doesn't spawn there, it spawns below the castle
18:56:19 <elliott> on top of the obsidian
18:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, uh
18:56:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: Misread as "lead decaf".
18:56:33 <Vorpal> elliott, what?
18:56:44 <elliott> nm.
18:56:45 <Vorpal> elliott, the obsidian shaft goes from ground to middle of bottom of castle
18:56:50 <Vorpal> elliott, how could it spawn on top
18:57:03 <elliott> so it's not floating?
18:57:11 <fizzie> elliott: http://p.zem.fi/kdvd -- is there a reason it does DEP for all but one of the source files twice?
18:57:16 <Vorpal> elliott, no, I corrected that above
18:57:28 <elliott> fizzie: Um, what. Let me take a look at useful.make.
18:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, while a floating castle is indeed awesome, it has the disadvantage of being annoying to enter and exit
18:58:00 <elliott> fizzie: Can you clean and run it with V=1?
18:58:09 <elliott> (Don't do make clean all, do make clean; make all V=1.)
18:58:39 <elliott> cc -Wall -Werror -std=gnu99 -pthread -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/include/SDL -O3 -M -MG -MF build/map.d map.c
18:58:40 <elliott> cc -Wall -Werror -std=gnu99 -pthread -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/include/SDL -O3 -M -MG -MF build/map.d map.c
18:58:45 <elliott> How strange, it's doing the exact same thing twice.
18:58:56 <elliott> I suspect an objdir bug at this point.
18:59:02 <elliott> Since it worked fine before I added objdir support.
18:59:33 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/g1cc but yes, it looks like that.
18:59:43 <Ilari> Hah... (about PCRM): "If these guys are against your dietary recommendations, you're probably doing something right, so I'm going to take this one as a win."
19:00:04 * elliott does make -d V=1 2>&1 >foo to check
19:01:30 <elliott> Prerequisite `map.c' is older than target `build/map.d'.
19:01:30 <elliott> Prerequisite `build' is newer than target `build/map.d'.
19:01:30 <elliott> Prerequisite `Makefile' is older than target `build/map.d'.
19:01:30 <elliott> Must remake target `build/map.d'.
19:01:50 <elliott> fizzie: It seems it decides it needs to do it all again after it re-makes after satisfying the .d dependencies the first time.
19:02:35 <elliott> Aha... hmm.
19:03:20 <elliott> fizzie: Pushing a fix.
19:03:38 <elliott> tl;dr if you just want something to exist, not to update when it gets newer, make it a |-dependency.
19:03:41 <fizzie> Oh, there's a client update too?
19:04:29 <fizzie> It's weird how it nowadays sends trees (or at least their leaves) before any other blocks.
19:04:33 <elliott> Pushin' now.
19:04:35 <fizzie> Must be leaf-decay-related.
19:05:06 <elliott> fizzie: Fixed.
19:05:44 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/what.png -- that thing in the upper-left corner does not fill me with confidence.
19:05:46 <elliott> " * Mysteriously, with the 1.2.0_02 update on November 4th, all Jack-O-Lanterns on worlds were converted back into pumpkins."
19:05:46 <elliott> *"*
19:06:14 <fizzie> It also isn't static, it keeps flickering.
19:07:13 <elliott> gold tools are stupid, right?
19:07:20 <Vorpal> what is new in 1.0.2?
19:07:27 <fizzie> The durability is the same as wood, wasn't it?
19:07:30 <elliott> Vorpal: "on November 4th"
19:07:31 <elliott> fizzie: Heh.
19:07:37 <elliott> fizzie: Also, that top-left is REAL. It's CHAOS.
19:07:43 <Vorpal> elliott, reading comprehension failure
19:07:47 <Vorpal> elliott, you that is
19:07:55 <Vorpal> elliott, now read what I said again
19:07:56 <elliott> wait, compasses are IRON
19:08:03 <elliott> Vorpal: oh.
19:08:05 <elliott> Vorpal: bugfixes.
19:08:16 <Vorpal> elliott, nothing on his blog, nothing on minecraft wiki
19:09:16 <elliott> Yay I'm on fire.
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19:09:52 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/what2.png -- it's also not the only chaotic region.
19:10:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, it's the even rarer thing! missingno
19:11:33 <elliott> fizzie: Visit it and SEE THE CHAOS.
19:12:29 <fizzie> I've visited, but nothing special is visible to the client.
19:12:41 <fizzie> It might be that it goes over y=128, though.
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19:13:15 <elliott> Deewiant: BTW, you're missing gold and iron ore from your emporium.
19:13:24 <Deewiant> I know.
19:13:24 <elliott> fizzie: It does? How?
19:14:08 <fizzie> Well, protocol-wise the y coordinates go all the way up to 255, so he might have just relaxed the limits.
19:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The room is slowly filling with smoke...
19:14:29 <fizzie> It might also be that the trees at max-alt are related.
19:14:40 <fizzie> I didn't bother exactly counting which height it was at.
19:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel that chimneys should prevent this.
19:14:55 <elliott> It sucks having your house in a boring area.
19:15:10 <elliott> fizzie: Can you actually build above 128 though, now?
19:15:27 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Soul_Sand Since when is it called soul sand.
19:15:29 <fizzie> I'll try to get up there to see.
19:15:34 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Netherrack Since when is it called netherrack.
19:15:46 <elliott> Stupid tooltips.
19:15:46 <fizzie> "That's a nice netherrack you've got there."
19:15:58 <elliott> Yeah, I can't even figure out that name ... at all.
19:16:18 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/eoxvk/sincere_thank_you_to_notch_for_the_tooltips/c19ufzq?context=3
19:16:24 <Deewiant> rack as in wrack, I guess
19:16:26 <elliott> "# The name "Netherrack" is not a misspelling of "Netherrock". [2]
19:16:26 <elliott> # It could also possibly be based on one or more of several definitions of rack having to do with suffering."
19:17:41 <fizzie> The server-side inventory did fix that item-placement thing.
19:18:06 <Sgeo> I should eat
19:18:10 * Phantom_Hoover makes a respirator out of a blanket.
19:18:22 <elliott> http://evilmousestudios.com/tronic/ Heh, someone got to the "single-colour texture pack thing" before me (well, sort of), except theirs is HD.
19:19:41 <fizzie> Teleporting still works, though with health on it's a bit dangerous. (Read: you pretty much die always.)
19:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, how does it work?
19:21:50 <Vorpal> wait, gun powder is sulphur now?
19:21:56 <Vorpal> (says tooltip)
19:22:20 <Vorpal> half-step is stone slab
19:22:51 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The server trusts client-sent "player position" packets pretty much absolutely, except it checks whether the path would go through solid blocks; so our teleportation command just sends two faked player-position commands, one to move from (px,py,pz) to (px,+128,pz), then another from there to (tx,+128,tz), where p is current player position and t the target.
19:23:09 <fizzie> Then gravity will take care of getting the player down from y=128.
19:23:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can target lakes
19:23:40 <Vorpal> for porting
19:23:43 <fizzie> That's true.
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19:24:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, you need to indicate if a lake is 1 or 2 deep!
19:24:34 <elliott> Lakes aren't everywhere.
19:24:57 <Vorpal> elliott, common enough that it is still somewhat useful
19:25:05 <fizzie> Maybe it could keep the player flying with repeated move packets, and construct a temporary water basin below, then let you drop.
19:25:07 <elliott> Vorpal: But a322 has health off anyway.
19:25:19 <elliott> fizzie: Actual flying is a known griefer thing, so that should actually work.
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19:25:20 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, but it breaks armour
19:25:34 <Vorpal> elliott, only in classic iirc
19:25:34 <elliott> Vorpal: But there's no health ... you don't need armour ...
19:25:38 <elliott> Ah, okay.
19:25:46 <elliott> Still.
19:25:47 <elliott> Vorpal: But there's no health ... you don't need armour ...
19:25:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I like the look of the armour
19:25:55 <fizzie> I might check whether you still get falling damage even if you "move" the player down from the highest point, but I suspect it just counts the drop from max-y to ground.
19:25:56 <elliott> So don't teleport.
19:26:07 <elliott> fizzie: Move down 128 times.
19:26:22 <fizzie> I think it will still count the whole thing as a single jump.
19:26:31 <fizzie> But I'll test at some point.
19:26:47 <elliott> Oh *joy*, a lava lake.
19:27:11 <fizzie> There's also a byte on the movement packets that is set when the player is on the ground, I'm not sure exactly what that does. The wiki says it's for "detecting flying".
19:27:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yet another one
19:27:23 <Vorpal> elliott, or at the old altitude?
19:27:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, for large drops and such?
19:29:28 <Vorpal> elliott, course literature in one of your favourite areas. I have no doubt you will say the book sucks
19:29:40 <Vorpal> ("Interaction design")
19:29:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Interaction design != HCI.
19:30:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway most HCI stuff is bullshit.
19:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah
19:30:16 <Vorpal> elliott, course literature and so on
19:30:34 <Vorpal> and it seems to cover HCI in parts at least
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19:31:20 <elliott> And I died.
19:31:53 <Vorpal> elliott, authors are Sharp, Rogers and Preece. If those names mean anything to you (they don't to me)
19:32:00 <elliott> To be explicit: I died, losing most of my possessions, and will now be transported to a spawn point from which I have no idea how to get to my house, which I built after wandering frustratedly at the bad map.
19:32:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't to me.
19:32:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, why didn't you mark your path and so on
19:32:27 <Vorpal> elliott, or use an inventory editor and teleporter
19:32:38 <Vorpal> elliott, or next time, create a new world when you find the current one sucks
19:32:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Because as I said, I was wandering frustratedly. The first coal I found, after walking for, like, a day, I punched through.
19:32:49 <elliott> Light streamed in.
19:32:52 <elliott> The mountain was ONE DEEP.
19:32:54 <elliott> I got ONE PIECE OF COAL.
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19:33:07 <elliott> Then finally I found a nice mountain with trees and set up shop.
19:33:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I would have generated a new map at that point
19:33:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I /was/ regenerating the world; I'd done it like five times, and decided I'd stop.
19:33:35 <elliott> Heh. A tree I hollowed out.
19:34:26 <fizzie> Aw, mcmap is definitely not as pretty as some of the competition, like the http://minecraftam.com/ thing.
19:34:52 <elliott> fizzie: But who uses mcmap for the map?
19:34:57 <elliott> >:P
19:35:10 <Deewiant> It's the only thing I use it for, when I use it
19:35:23 <elliott> fizzie: Looks like it needs a server mod to work.
19:35:25 <elliott> (automap)
19:35:34 <elliott> I may be wrong.
19:35:42 <fizzie> I don't think it does. "The mod/map is entirely clientside, meaning you can use it in singleplayer or on any SMP server, regardless of what mods it has."
19:35:52 <elliott> "# The mod/map is entirely clientside, meaning you can use it in singleplayer or on any SMP server, regardless of what mods it has."
19:35:53 <elliott> Hmm.
19:35:54 <fizzie> But it is a client-side mod, not a nifty proxy tool like ours.
19:36:00 <elliott> Oh, it's talking about http://minecraftam.com/MM.aspx.
19:36:03 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, proxies are more fun.
19:36:30 <elliott> fizzie: If you made your map lighting-savvy (i.e. torches light thiings up), and jigged the colours a bit, I think it'd be fine.
19:37:05 <Sgeo> SMP server?
19:37:36 <fizzie> Sgeo: "Survival multiplayer."
19:37:37 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Aw, mcmap is definitely not as pretty as some of the competition, like the http://minecraftam.com/ thing. <-- sure, but which one runs on my system? mcmap, it has less requirements
19:37:42 <Sgeo> Ah
19:39:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, it's path marking thing looks useful
19:39:56 <Vorpal> to ehird at least
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19:40:21 <Sgeo> Linden Lab closed the Teen Grid
19:40:33 <Sgeo> This is not as big a victory for anti-age-segregationists as it sounds
19:41:15 <Sgeo> Users between 13-16 have to be with an "affiliated organization" separate from the main part of SL
19:41:20 <Sgeo> erm, 13-15
19:41:40 <elliott> All 1 people in here who play or care about Second Life thank you for that information.
19:41:47 <Vorpal> it doesn't sound like a victory either way
19:41:50 <Vorpal> I mean, who cares about SL
19:41:58 <Vorpal> (in here at least)
19:42:29 <elliott> ..... HOW WILL I BE ABLE TO AVOID CUTTING MYSELF????/
19:42:38 <elliott> ;__;
19:42:46 <elliott> MOVING ON
19:42:48 <fizzie> octocat_sad.gif
19:42:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that github?
19:43:09 <fizzie> Yes, I got it the other day.
19:43:21 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hm3E2cGQE4
19:43:27 <fizzie> http://github.com/images/error/octocat_sad.gif and then some sort of "the server, it is error" page.
19:43:41 <elliott> (The error is a reference to those.)
19:43:45 <elliott> (I think.)
19:43:46 <Vorpal> elliott, "Minecraft AutoMap requires Windows, the .NET Framework 4, and the XNA Framework 4.0."
19:43:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Mono :P
19:43:57 <Vorpal> elliott, not xna iirc
19:43:57 <elliott> Okay, so XNA might be difficult.
19:44:09 <Vorpal> elliott, also last I looked mono went to 3.5
19:44:11 <Vorpal> not to 4
19:44:20 <elliott> It goes to etc.
19:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, 11?
19:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAA MY EYES
19:44:36 <elliott> Yes yes.
19:44:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what
19:45:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, DID I MENTION THIS ROOM IS FULL OF SMOKE
19:45:33 <elliott> It's not the nicotine that kills! It's the smo-oo-ooke, the smoooke!
19:45:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so put out the fire
19:45:52 <elliott> Cancer, it's the smoke! Heart disease, it's the smoke. It's the smoooooooooke!
19:46:06 <elliott> It's the, it's the inhalation, it's the smooooke, the smooooooooke!
19:46:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and there is this thing in fireplaces that kind of open and closes above them
19:46:27 <Vorpal> did you open it
19:46:32 <Vorpal> not sure what the English word is
19:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'll get in trouble if the fire goes out!
19:46:37 <Vorpal> spjäll in Swedish
19:46:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is burning his parents.
19:46:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so talk to some grown up?
19:47:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover is *burning his parents*.
19:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, they didn't CARE
19:47:09 <elliott> Also they live in Antarctica and there is nobody else within a seventy mile radius.
19:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> On account of being on fire.
19:47:17 <Vorpal> uh
19:47:24 <Vorpal> sure
19:47:37 <elliott> It's the smooooooooke.
19:48:24 * Phantom_Hoover opens the door anyway.
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19:52:50 <elliott> "The first time I played the game I didn't know that I'd picked up clay, and I was wondering why the hell cooking eggs turned them into bricks..."
19:53:37 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/WNTDy.png whoa.
19:54:33 <Slereah> OH GOD I CAN SEE FOREVER
19:58:44 <elliott> "Get this. Framerate goes back to normal if you're beside trees and you look straight up at the sky...
19:58:44 <elliott> Look back down, and I'm right back to 2fps from 40-60fps looking up."
19:58:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Notch quality.
19:59:06 <elliott> I propose we define "notch" to mean "very low/poor". It even SOUNDS like it means "small". Notch.
19:59:52 <Deewiant> "Notch" already has a meaning or ten.
20:00:13 <Sgeo> Crud
20:00:16 <Sgeo> I MISSED MY FINAL
20:00:57 <coppro> you're a retard
20:01:11 <coppro> missed missed or can-still-run-to-be-late missed
20:01:20 <Sgeo> missed missed
20:01:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why did you do that
20:01:28 <Sgeo> I must admit though, the "Crud" part is a lie
20:01:33 <Sgeo> It's an optional final
20:01:35 <coppro> oh
20:01:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, alarm clock?
20:01:43 <Sgeo> That can only help one's grade... my grade cannot be helped
20:01:48 <coppro> lol
20:01:57 <coppro> I have to write a final tomorrow
20:02:00 <coppro> last one
20:02:05 <coppro> stupid balsdkfjals
20:02:12 <coppro> anyway, I'm going in search of food
20:02:14 <coppro> see yzs
20:03:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I MADE IT BACK HOME
20:03:33 <elliott> <Deewiant> "Notch" already has a meaning or ten.
20:03:37 <elliott> Oh, it does, doesn't it...
20:04:17 <elliott> HA I've lost all my iron.
20:05:08 <fizzie> "Noun, sense 1. An affectionate synonym for 'vagina'. See also gash. Noun, sense 2. Someone with whom you basically just get drunk and/or high and have sex, usually on a short term basis. Compare to "your girl" or "a ho", both are higher on the intimacy ladder." (Urban Dictionary.)
20:05:56 <fizzie> Also the OED site has gone all multimedia and web 2.1 on me.
20:06:06 <elliott> fizzie: For every word, there is a sexual definition for it on Urban Dictionary.
20:06:17 <Deewiant> Wrong.
20:06:20 <elliott> Most likely several.
20:06:36 <elliott> Deewiant: You know, I had this /terrible/ feeling you were about to say "Wrong." when I said that.
20:06:53 <elliott> Deewiant: I decided amending it to s/every/almost every/, but then I decided not to edit my joke just because of you :P
20:07:12 <elliott> *considered
20:07:22 <fizzie> Well, OED 'notch': "4. In various /fig./ uses. a. /coarse/ slang. The female genitals."
20:07:33 <elliott> fizzie: Still. :p
20:07:42 <elliott> fizzie: BTW, does mcmap >foo work with the new IO superplexer?
20:08:01 <elliott> if (pipe(pipefd) != 0)
20:08:01 <elliott> goto no_terminal;
20:08:02 <elliott> ...
20:08:02 <elliott> no_terminal:
20:08:02 <elliott> return;
20:08:02 <elliott> }
20:08:04 <fizzie> Yes, without isatty(0) && isatty(1) it should just write into stdout as usual and not start it.
20:08:07 <elliott> One would think "return;" might suffice.
20:08:20 <fizzie> Right, I was planning to have some sort of initialization done below there.
20:08:27 <elliott> fizzie: But can it support reading from plain stdin?
20:08:29 <fizzie> But then I couldn't invent anything to initialize.
20:08:36 <fizzie> Well, no, it doesn't do that at the moment.
20:08:41 <elliott> 'cuz then we can have RIDICULOUSLY BLOATED BOTS that require Minecraft to be running for no good reason!
20:09:00 <fizzie> Well, I can certainly add that.
20:09:07 <fizzie> It sounds like a good thing to have!
20:09:38 <fizzie> Anyhoo, also on OED 'notch': "N. Amer. colloq. and regional. to the notch and variants: to the right standard, to perfection, exactly." That can't be right...
20:09:48 <Vorpal> elliott, nice (about getting back)
20:10:06 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:10:50 <fizzie> "notch effect n. Materials Sci. the increase in the susceptibility of a specimen to fracture caused by the presence of a notch." -- but this could be generalized into some sort of software breakage use.
20:12:02 <elliott> fizzie: Have you got a testing server up on the beta server or something? My computer isn't strong enough to run the server properly, and I'd like to do some mcmap codeine.
20:12:16 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:14:33 <fizzie> No, I've just been running it locally, and I don't feel like starting to add port-forwarding rules and all that to open things up.
20:14:53 <elliott> fizzie: Woot, I have a commit on my hands and no way to test it :P
20:15:19 <elliott> console.c:114: error: pointer targets in passing argument 1 of ‘cmd_parse’ differ in signedness
20:15:19 <elliott> cmd.h:4: note: expected ‘unsigned char *’ but argument is of type ‘char *’
20:15:21 <elliott> Oh please.
20:17:32 <fizzie> Where are you getting a char * for cmd_parse, anyway?
20:17:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> That can only help one's grade... my grade cannot be helped ← ...how
20:18:07 <Phantom_Hoover> You've made it clear that the course is for simpletons and you are failing?
20:18:31 <fizzie> Or alternatively, what do you need cmd_parse for?
20:18:32 <elliott> fizzie: readline.
20:18:37 <elliott> fizzie: And for //foo at the console.
20:18:42 <fizzie> It already works.
20:18:49 <elliott> fizzie: Really? Does inject_to_server do It?
20:18:50 <elliott> *do it?
20:19:00 <fizzie> https://github.com/fis/mcmap/commit/c336bce1afe12eb80f18bef1686766f4d8f43ee4
20:19:11 <fizzie> Okay, I *think* it works.
20:19:16 -!- wareya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:19:17 <fizzie> I haven't actually tried it.
20:19:31 <fizzie> Anyway, I reworked it so that inject_to_server'd packets are processed as if they came from the client.
20:19:43 <fizzie> So it should be indistinguishable from client-sent chat.
20:19:50 <elliott> Ah.
20:20:01 <elliott> fizzie: What happens if you do //slap <99 chars>?
20:20:05 <elliott> In-game.
20:20:13 <elliott> And what happens if you type "a" 101 times at the console?
20:20:20 <fizzie> You probably will get kicked.
20:20:27 <elliott> Right ...
20:20:58 <fizzie> Or actually not at 101, but certainly at 105 or so. It was somewhere around there.
20:21:11 <fizzie> Either truncating or auto-splitting could be a nice feature.
20:21:25 <fizzie> Truncating would be more IRCy. :p
20:21:34 <fizzie> (Auto-splitting would be more "user-friendly IRC client"y.)
20:21:56 <elliott> "The Alpha server will check the message to see if it begins with a '/'. If it doesn't, the username of the sender is prepended and sent to all other clients (including the original sender). If it does, the server assumes it to be a command and attempts to process it. A message longer than 100 characters will cause the server to kick the client. This limits the chat message packet length to 103 bytes. Note that this limit does not apply to incomi
20:21:56 <elliott> ng chat messages as the server may have prepended other information, not limited to, but usually including, a username."
20:22:09 <elliott> fizzie: Infalliprotocollywiki says it's 100.
20:22:09 <fizzie> Ah, so it was 103 bytes per packet.
20:23:12 <fizzie> I wonder if it's 100 characters or 100 bytes. Could be either.
20:23:30 <elliott> Easy (but boring) to check.
20:23:44 <elliott> Hey Deewiant, set up a server so I can test things. (I'm just going to bug random people until somebody does.)
20:23:57 <Deewiant> Tell me how (I'm on Windows)
20:24:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Run minecraft_server.exe.
20:25:01 <fizzie> (I've seen that mentioned on the download site.)
20:25:01 <elliott> Deewiant: What fizzie said.
20:25:07 <Deewiant> Link it.
20:25:08 <elliott> Deewiant: Also turn off monsters and PvP, or I'll eat your soul.
20:25:09 <fizzie> It's 100 bytes, not 100 chars.
20:25:22 <Deewiant> elliott: I'll put it on "hard".
20:25:25 <elliott> Deewiant: http://minecraft.net/download/Minecraft_Server.exe
20:25:25 <fizzie> http://minecraft.net/download/Minecraft_Server.exe?v=1292963092965
20:25:29 <elliott> Deewiant: And you can't control the difficulty.
20:25:32 <elliott> Just monsters and pvp on vs off.
20:25:40 <Deewiant> Meh, lame.
20:25:44 <elliott> I think.
20:25:50 <fizzie> elliott: If you're going to be the only person there, how does PvP matter?-)
20:26:04 <elliott> fizzie: Because Deewiant will probably drop in and punch me to death.
20:26:05 <fizzie> And it seems to be 100 bytes, not 100 characters.
20:26:10 -!- wareya has joined.
20:26:19 <fizzie> "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" works, "äääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääääää" kicks me off.
20:26:27 <Deewiant> It doesn't have any pvp/monster settings
20:26:39 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes it does.
20:26:41 <Deewiant> But, tar.us.to:25565 may or may not work.
20:26:46 <fizzie> That's the "server.properties" file it generates somewhere.
20:26:48 <Deewiant> This GUI doesn't, and the help command doesn't list any.
20:26:53 <elliott> Same directory, I think.
20:27:14 <elliott> 20:26:38 [DIED] main.c: 106: proxy thread (client -> server) write failed
20:27:18 <elliott> Did you just take it down, Deewiant?
20:27:24 <Deewiant> [INFO] ehird [/] logged in with entity id 4393
20:27:25 <Deewiant> [INFO] ehird lost connection: disconnect.overflow
20:27:31 <elliott> Lolz whats.
20:27:40 <elliott> fizzie: Your mcmap, 'tis insufficient.
20:27:41 <Deewiant> Now it happened to fizzie too.
20:27:43 <elliott> It works now, second connect.
20:27:52 <elliott> Then I got kicked off.
20:27:59 <fizzie> I connected, got packet updates for a while, then got dumped.
20:28:00 <elliott> Without an error thist ime.
20:28:01 <elliott> *this time.
20:28:10 <fizzie> 'tis weird; it works if I connect to localhost.
20:28:11 <elliott> fizzie: Nice beta support :P
20:28:20 <elliott> fizzie: Are you surey ou're on the beat server?
20:28:20 <elliott> *beta
20:28:23 <elliott> *sure you're
20:28:27 <fizzie> Well, yes.
20:28:29 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:28:35 <Deewiant> Well, TEST FAST.
20:28:37 <elliott> WELL THIS WORKS
20:28:38 <fizzie> 2010-12-21 21:15:44 [INFO] Starting minecraft server version Beta 1.0
20:30:10 <elliott> Trying without mcmap now.
20:30:35 <elliott> Deewiant: EOFException even without mcmap.
20:30:42 <Deewiant> Well, I don't know.
20:30:44 <fizzie> 22:27:49 server -> client packet 0xff size 4294967048
20:30:45 <elliott> Deewiant: Concludion: ERGO ROUTER FAIL (or server fail or something)
20:30:48 <fizzie> That's probably not all right.
20:32:00 <Deewiant> Haven't had problems with any other kinds of servers thus far, so I blame the software.
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20:32:51 <elliott> Deewiant: Considering it works for fizzie, that's a rather odd conclusion. :p
20:33:01 <Deewiant> Does it work for fizzie?
20:33:10 <elliott> fizzie says it works for fizzie. As in, using a server on localhost.
20:33:10 <Deewiant> Oh, his server, you meant.
20:33:14 <Deewiant> He's not running it on Windows.
20:33:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: Does it say "Beta 1.0" for the version? (Though I don't suppose there are any others yet.)
20:33:42 <Deewiant> [INFO] Starting minecraft server version Beta 1.0
20:33:49 <fizzie> And it's Java, you know, write once, run anywhere, platform-agnostic.
20:33:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Y'could try:
20:33:54 <elliott> http://minecraft.net/download/minecraft_server.jar?v=1292963598077
20:33:56 <elliott> java -Xmx1024M -Xms1024M -jar minecraft_server.jar nogui
20:34:13 <fizzie> That's what I use to start it; though it might be just timing-related things, or worldgen-related things.
20:34:23 <Deewiant> I've written Java software with Windows-only hacks to make stuff work better.
20:34:41 <fizzie> No, you don't understand, write once, run ANYWHERE.
20:34:47 <fizzie> (I've been indoctramotated.)
20:34:49 <Deewiant> Anywho, nogui version running.
20:35:00 <fizzie> The noogie version.
20:35:23 <Deewiant> Shrug.
20:35:26 <elliott> Write everywhere, run once.
20:35:36 <Deewiant> Crash, give up.
20:36:15 <elliott> fizzie: So hey, dem forwarded ports.
20:36:20 <elliott> :p
20:36:28 <fizzie> Blonk. Yes, it certainly does seem to break even on a direct connection.
20:36:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: Any interesting messages in the server console?
20:36:47 <Deewiant> This time it printed a few SocketExceptions.
20:36:57 <Deewiant> java.net.SocketException: Software caused connection abort: recv failed
20:36:57 <Deewiant> at java.net.SocketInputStream.socketRead0(Native Method)
20:37:04 <Deewiant> java.net.SocketException: Connection reset by peer: socket write error
20:37:05 <Deewiant> at java.net.SocketOutputStream.socketWrite0(Native Method)
20:37:12 <Deewiant> Between ehird's join and quit
20:38:00 <fizzie> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=110437 "my friends server has just been updated but me and a few other people are constantly crashing with errors such as: - internal exception: Java.EOFException - minecraft connection lost Internal exception: java.net.socket exception: socket caused connection abort: recv failed"
20:38:16 <Deewiant> Notch Engineering strikes again.
20:38:25 <elliott> It's Notch quality
20:38:27 <elliott> *quality.
20:38:33 <fizzie> "I'm having exactly the same problem - I've tried on multiple servers, and on both my mac and pc machines - I tried updated java to the latest version, I've tried deleting my MC /bin directory and getting new files downloaded, nothing seems to be working."
20:38:48 <elliott> "I'm beginning to hate Java -_-"
20:38:50 <elliott> Hate the Notch, not the game.
20:39:04 <elliott> Although hate Java too.
20:39:06 <elliott> So basically just hate.
20:40:53 <elliott> Deewiant: Ooh -- "Bad packet id 158".
20:40:57 <elliott> fizzie: ^
20:40:58 <Deewiant> Is the server-ip in server.properties an address to bind to or its external IP?
20:43:13 <elliott> Deewiant: No idea.
20:43:31 <Vorpal> gah, -22 C outside
20:44:09 <Vorpal> who called -10 C or whatever it was "really fucking cold" last week or so?
20:44:13 <elliott> pikhq i think
20:44:14 <Deewiant> How much snow?
20:44:30 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well, it snowed a lot yesterday and the day before that
20:44:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but it rarely snow when THIS cold
20:44:39 <Deewiant> cm-depth
20:45:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, snow blower used yesterday, hasn't snowed since then. So about 1 cm where it was used. Almost 2 meters in other places
20:45:26 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hard to tell what it actually is since it tends to blow up against walls around here
20:45:29 <Deewiant> Don't you have weather services?
20:45:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you mean, the weather services us with a lot of snow? ;P
20:45:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, sure, there is SMHI
20:45:57 <Deewiant> I mean that snow depth is a well-defined value :-P
20:46:05 <Deewiant> That they should report
20:46:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and I don't know where to find it on there
20:47:31 <elliott> isthesnowdepthinswedentodayreallyfuckingdeep.com: "YES"
20:47:37 <elliott> There's your value.
20:48:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well, at least over a meter I'd say
20:48:11 <Vorpal> but I can't find official values
20:48:51 <elliott> fizzie: The command-output-appears-as-CHAT is a regression.
20:48:59 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:49:02 <elliott> fizzie: It's all neon-coloured and unreadable now for those of us with lightbulb terminals.
20:49:21 <Vorpal> elliott, no one uses those anyway
20:49:23 <Vorpal> so a feature
20:49:23 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Use http://www.smhi.se/vadret/vadret-i-sverige/snodjup
20:49:24 <Vorpal> not a bug
20:49:41 <elliott> Vorpal: I use one, and I'm the only person who isn't fizzie who's contributed code, so there.
20:50:02 <fizzie> Doesn't the same apply for server-sent yellow messages?
20:50:12 <Vorpal> Deewiant, closest observation is 32, but it is not very near
20:50:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and due to wind it is much deeper locally
20:50:41 <fizzie> I think it's more harmonically harmonious when it does the same color-thing it does for all; there's the no-color option already, anyway.
20:50:45 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but that's "less" problematic.
20:50:53 <elliott> I don't mind the colours, I just don't like command output to be arbitrarily coloured.
20:51:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, easy fix, force bg to black
20:51:03 <elliott> The only reason they're coloured in the client is because there's no other good way to indicate.
20:51:11 <elliott> In the console, there's [INFO] vs [CHAT] to indicate.
20:51:20 <Vorpal> elliott, make it an option
20:51:23 <elliott> (Especially considering that the coords response isn't chat by any reasonable definition of CHAT.)
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20:51:23 <Vorpal> I prefer coloured
20:51:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm talking to fizzie, not you.
20:51:36 <Vorpal> elliott, calling it a regression is just wrong
20:51:51 <fizzie> It's chat by the definition that "it's something sent to the client as chat".
20:52:08 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yes, but //coords is more info generated by mcmap than chat.
20:52:17 <fizzie> Also, it makes //command and /command outputs work exactly the same.
20:52:27 <elliott> fizzie: I mean, this way, /mode changes/ come out as [CHAT]... which is just weird.
20:52:42 <fizzie> I didn't want mode changes to be reported to the client chat, anyway. :p
20:52:48 <elliott> Anyway, -c is broken.
20:52:51 <elliott> > //coords
20:52:51 <elliott> 20:52:11 [CHAT] §b//coords: x=-601, z=-16, y=68
20:53:11 <elliott> Hmm, ^D is broken too, I'll fix that.
20:53:13 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I didn't want mode changes to be reported to the client chat, anyway. :p <-- nor me
20:53:18 <elliott> Is there any special way to restore the terminal or is it atexited?
20:53:50 <fizzie> console_cleanup() does the readline term-deprep if readline has been initialized.
20:53:59 <elliott> fizzie: What about closing sockets and stuff?
20:54:25 <fizzie> What did you want ^D to do?
20:54:46 <elliott> fizzie: Quit; but I've already made it do that.
20:54:46 <fizzie> If you want to exit, just exit; the cleanup is also atexit'd.
20:54:49 <elliott> OK.
20:55:12 <elliott> Indeed, 'tis worky.
20:55:32 <fizzie> And right, the nocolor-mode doesn't actually parse the color codes at all. I guess it would be better if it did but just didn't print the escape codes.
20:55:35 <elliott> fizzie: I'm going to let it send blank messages 'cuz that's totally useful. (If that's okay.)
20:55:42 -!- olsner has joined.
20:55:52 <fizzie> If it's possible, sure.
20:56:04 <fizzie> I haven't tried a zero-length string chat message.
20:56:05 <elliott> It is, yes.
20:56:29 <fizzie> Well, if the server doesn't mind getting those, by all means make it possible to send those too.
20:56:41 <elliott> Considering I've sent many before, yes. :P
20:57:06 <elliott> >
20:57:07 <elliott> 20:56:29 [CHAT] <ehird> !
20:57:07 <elliott> >
20:57:07 <elliott> 20:56:30 [CHAT] <ehird> !
20:57:07 <elliott> >
20:57:10 <elliott> But they show as blank in Minecraft.
20:57:19 <elliott> fizzie: I think there's a printing code bug.
20:57:28 <elliott> fizzie: ! might be printing 1 char of an uninitialised buffer.
20:57:29 <elliott> Maybe.
20:57:40 <elliott> It didn't print ! before you rewrote the console code, so.
20:58:03 <fizzie> Hmm.
20:58:18 <fizzie> I can take a look at that if you want.
20:58:28 <elliott> Well, it's possibly something to look at.
20:58:31 <fizzie> If you push the empty-message sending version.
20:58:43 <elliott> Doing so.
20:59:25 <elliott> fizzie: Done
20:59:27 <elliott> *Done.
20:59:31 <fizzie> Okkay.
20:59:47 <elliott> Okkkkkkkkay.
21:00:56 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm. Should I make debug=1 builds go into a debug/ directory? I think I keep accidentally mixing -g and -O3 objects.
21:01:03 <elliott> (Or I could just make debug=1 be the default.
21:01:10 <elliott> *default.)
21:01:18 <olsner> I find it a good idea to give each configuration its own output directory
21:01:55 <elliott> mm
21:02:15 -!- Goosey has joined.
21:02:22 <Goosey> Anyone know of a good high traffick image hosting site?
21:02:36 <elliott> Goosey: lemonparty.org
21:02:44 <elliott> It hosts an image and it's high-traffic.
21:02:55 <Goosey> No
21:02:58 <Goosey> I'm not going there
21:03:01 <Goosey> you bastard
21:03:13 <Goosey> Nice try though
21:03:49 <elliott> fizzie: Got any nicer target directory names than _debug and _build? :p (Underscores to allow mental filtering-out in directory listings.)
21:05:03 <elliott> (I am slowly -- but steadily -- leading mcmap onto the path of Java EE.)
21:05:13 <elliott> (I plan to port useful.make to Ant in a few days.)
21:05:24 <Vorpal> aieee!
21:05:42 <olsner> to ... ant?
21:06:00 <elliott> olsner: Yes. But it will also require Maven.
21:06:07 <Vorpal> elliott, maven?
21:06:17 <elliott> Vorpal: You really don't want to know.
21:06:29 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I do
21:06:38 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Maven#Example
21:06:39 <elliott> have fun.
21:06:42 <Vorpal> it can't be worse than ant
21:06:49 <elliott> No, but it's close.
21:06:59 * Vorpal waits for browser to load
21:06:59 <elliott> And yes, those XML files get WAY more enterprisey and generic and bloated for even simple projects.
21:07:18 <elliott> p.s. http://i.imgur.com/T1cao.jpg
21:07:24 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, different course
21:07:29 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:07:38 <elliott> Sgeo: I was unaware your college offered non-moronic courses?
21:07:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume maven still doesn't do proper dependency handling
21:08:12 <Sgeo> The course I'm failing seems to be decent, except for problems that are my problems and not the course's
21:08:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Fucked if I know.
21:08:25 <fizzie> elliott: Bugfixed the no-color mode: https://github.com/fis/mcmap/commit/188d632 (and that's actually your bug; it used to be a fwrite(msg, 1, msglen, stdout); and you log_print'ified it even though obviously (for some values of...) msg might not be null-terminated. (Otherwise I wouldn't have had a msglen parameter.)
21:08:40 <Sgeo> elliott, no, the optional final course is a chemistry course, a bit moronic, but I'm not failing it
21:09:15 <elliott> fizzie: Well, uh, your mother.
21:09:37 <elliott> fizzie: And no, you didn't quite bugfix it in that it still spews colour codes :P
21:09:47 <elliott> But yeah.
21:10:26 <elliott> In fact I'll fix thatn ow.
21:10:30 <elliott> that now.
21:10:44 <Vorpal> elliott, make it an option!
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21:10:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I do like the colour codes btw.
21:11:04 <elliott> Vorpal: You like it spewing colour codes when colour is off?
21:11:05 <Vorpal> makes output easier to read
21:11:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Please stop pinging me about mcmap.
21:11:17 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, hm. If it is turned off ...
21:11:22 <elliott> The no bitching policy applies.
21:11:26 <fizzie> Right, well, yes. It might be best that you just use the color-code parsing routine always, and nocolor-test away the escape-code outputs.
21:11:30 <Vorpal> elliott, not to you, only to fizzie
21:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I never agreed it to you
21:12:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Stop pinging me to whine about mcmap.
21:13:03 <elliott> fizzie: Pushed what "might" be a fix; untested due to lack of server that'll stay up long enough to check.
21:13:44 <Sgeo> The humans are dead
21:14:29 <Vorpal> elliott, why
21:14:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Because I said so.
21:14:42 <Vorpal> elliott, local server?
21:14:54 <elliott> Not enough processing power to run Minecraft, the server, and mcmap at the same time.
21:15:05 <elliott> At least, not without waiting a minute for it to stabilise.
21:15:12 <elliott> (Probably.)
21:15:20 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, mcmap is not heavy. So run server on one computer, client and mcmap on another
21:15:22 <Vorpal> problem solved
21:15:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I /know/ you have an imac too
21:15:29 <Vorpal> so
21:15:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I do not have reasonable access to another computer.
21:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, so where is the imac?
21:15:42 <elliott> The iMac is in a box and there's no free sockets here that I know of.
21:15:47 <Vorpal> ah
21:15:48 <elliott> My router also only has one Ethernet port.
21:15:55 <Vorpal> elliott, wireless?
21:15:59 <fizzie> I don't see why the fix wouldn't work; and I've put in quite a lot of untested code.
21:16:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Or I could just push without testing, like Notch.
21:16:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
21:16:13 <fizzie> And like me!
21:16:17 <elliott> mcmap: at least as stable as the game itself!
21:16:36 <fizzie> At least I haven't sold a million copies of mcmap and made them auto-update. :p
21:16:40 <Vorpal> when will ineiros update the server
21:16:48 <elliott> Vorpal: When hMod updates and he's sufficiently drunk.
21:16:55 <elliott> (Obviously one can only upgrade servers when inebriated.)
21:17:01 <fizzie> I can take care of the latter, but I don't know how to speed up the former.
21:17:17 <elliott> fizzie: Get hey0 drunk too?
21:18:12 <elliott> fizzie: So, do you want to have some fun by looking into my GNU Make metaprogramming bug?
21:18:28 <elliott> It would make "make clean all" SLIGHTLY more convenient for all mcmap users!
21:20:30 <fizzie> Nnnnot right now.
21:21:20 <elliott> define c-program-body
21:21:20 <elliott> to-install += $(1)
21:21:20 <elliott> to-clean += $(1) $(2:.c=.o) $(2:.c=.d)
21:21:20 <elliott> $(objdir)/$(1): $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.o) Makefile | $(objdir) ; \
21:21:20 <elliott> $(call do,LINK,$(objdir)/$(1),$(cc.link) -o $(objdir)/$(1) \
21:21:21 <elliott> $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.o))
21:21:22 <elliott> $(if $(cleaning),,-include $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.d))
21:21:24 <elliott> endef
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21:27:44 * elliott pushes
21:28:02 <elliott> Okay, I think the build system "vaguely" complete now.
21:28:24 <elliott> Being able to set objdir in a less hacky manner in the Makefile should be possible (need to figure out how to handle that in useful.make), and an install target would be useful, but it's pretty good.
21:28:53 <elliott> Although you have to do "make clean debug=1" for it to clean a debug build properly. Although that might be the Right Thing.
21:31:29 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:34:25 <elliott> Heh. Lua lets you drop parens for single-argument functions.
21:34:28 <elliott> Well, seemingly.
21:34:35 <elliott> Oh, only for string and list literals? What.
21:41:52 <elliott> changequote(` ',`
21:41:53 <elliott> ')
21:41:54 <elliott> MWAHAHAHA M
21:41:55 <elliott> *M4
21:42:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what're you doing m4 for?
21:45:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No reason whatsoever.
21:46:59 -!- cheater99 has joined.
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21:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I motion that m4 be made an honourary esolang.
21:49:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> All in favour?
21:52:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It always has been.
21:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> But not OFFICIALLY!
21:55:33 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I still have to send a message to Fidelity
21:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, what are the properties of the entity you call Fidelity?
21:57:53 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, possibly having possession of materials related to BancSTAR
21:58:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Wait, it's a *person*?
21:58:19 <elliott> Called Fidelity?
21:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> There are *people* called Fidelity?
21:58:33 <Sgeo> elliott, wait, I implied it's a person?
21:58:45 <elliott> Hmm. Okay, so you didn't.
21:58:54 <elliott> Oh it's that!
21:58:58 <elliott> You realise a corporation would prefer to forget bancstar ever existed right?
21:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I assume he assumed it was Alluded To Female.
21:59:15 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. female names like that were once common (not that specific attribute)
21:59:32 <Sgeo> There are people called Faith and Hope
21:59:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Well yes, but it's also 2010 here.
21:59:43 <elliott> And... Fidelity?
21:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, in direct violation of Hoover's Naming Law.
21:59:51 <elliott> Faith and Hope I can kind of understand, even though they're terrible names.
21:59:52 <elliott> Fidelity??
22:00:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I think Honesty also happened
22:00:25 <elliott> Vorpal: I think this is God's way of telling us that he likes eugenics.
22:00:59 <elliott> What was that Python-y-syntaxed language that was on the level of C?
22:01:06 <Sgeo> Cython?
22:01:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "Felicity". If you EVER have the urge to call a child "Fidelity", at least extend that kindness to it.
22:01:20 <Sgeo> Oh, the think like Vala but with Pythony syntax1
22:01:22 <elliott> Sgeo: No.
22:01:23 <Sgeo> !
22:01:23 <elliott> Unrelated to Python.
22:01:27 <elliott> And no, not that either (Genie).
22:01:39 <elliott> The homepage had a screenshot of some mandelbrot program written in it, I think.
22:01:46 <elliott> Low-fi site, IIRC it had no CSS.
22:02:08 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Felicia Day?
22:02:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, what?
22:02:40 <Sgeo> "Felicity" kind of sounds like "Felicia"
22:02:45 <elliott> ...
22:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, and "Seth" sounds a bit like "Zath".
22:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> With a voiced "th".
22:03:09 <elliott> Which sounds a bit like Zach.
22:03:12 <elliott> Which sounds a bit like Exactly.
22:03:16 <Phantom_Hoover> THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE CALLED NOW.
22:03:16 <elliott> Which sounds a bit like Eggsactly.
22:03:21 <elliott> Which sounds a bit like eggs.
22:03:23 <Sgeo> I've been called Zach before
22:03:25 <elliott> Which are OVARIES.
22:03:30 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:03:31 <elliott> What I'm saying is, Sgeo is ovaries.
22:03:40 <elliott> Via logic.
22:03:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott sounds a bit like "Elliot" which sounds a bit like "Eliott".
22:03:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I will make your intestines into a stew.
22:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Q.E.D.
22:04:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, sorry, is that sound a ł rather than an l?
22:04:30 <elliott> heh
22:04:34 <fizzie> "Thou‑Shalt‑Not‑Commit‑Adultery Pulsifer?" he said, when she'd finished.
22:04:35 <fizzie> "That sort of name was quite common in those days," said Anath­ema. "Apparently there were ten children and they were a very religious family. There was Covetousness Pulsifer, False‑Witness Pulsifer‑"
22:04:35 <elliott> Wow, I didn't realise that the Soviety government owned Tetris. :)
22:05:01 <elliott> fizzie: Suffer-The-Little-Children-Onto-Me Jones.
22:05:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, fun fact: my real name has an "mhn" in it!
22:05:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Phantomhn Hoover?
22:05:35 <Phantom_Hoover> That's the principle!
22:05:52 <Sgeo> Phantomhnoover
22:06:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I ever want to know your real name, you're just Phantom to me.
22:06:05 <elliott> It would be weird.
22:06:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phamhntom_Hoover.
22:06:28 -!- elliott has changed nick to J_Edgar_Hoover.
22:06:33 <J_Edgar_Hoover> Phamhntom_Hoover: BROTHER.
22:07:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, good omens?
22:07:17 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes.
22:07:27 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, you need to *ask*?
22:07:41 <Phamhntom_Hoover> fizzie, how can you quote books in about 30 seconds?
22:07:42 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, yes, well, it was some time ago I read it
22:07:54 <Vorpal> I think Pyramids is underquoted
22:07:58 <Vorpal> but that's just me
22:07:58 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Surely you don't have a library a metre to your left.
22:08:00 <fizzie> Phamhntom_Hoover: It's this thing called computers, they can sort and search data pretty fast!
22:08:15 <Phamhntom_Hoover> fizzie, but did you know that putting books on computers is PIRACY?
22:08:47 <Phamhntom_Hoover> God, I love weird little phonemes that appear in about 2 languages.
22:08:49 <fizzie> http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/datasets ← the worst pirates of them all.
22:09:05 <J_Edgar_Hoover> Gyaah, I like Pyramids but I don't want to support Vorpal by quoting it.
22:09:18 <Phamhntom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_labiodental_plosive
22:09:25 <J_Edgar_Hoover> Von Labiodental.
22:09:31 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It isn't used in _a single language_.
22:09:37 <J_Edgar_Hoover> "It's used in TWENTY!"
22:09:45 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It turns up occasionally in two.
22:10:03 <fizzie> Phamhntom_Hoover: NameDB (which is pretty small, only 30000 names) says there's two "mhn"-containing names, Adhamhnan (Irish-Gaelic, "little Adam") and Domhnall (Scots-Gaelic, "ruler of the earth").
22:10:18 <Phamhntom_Hoover> fizzie, no comment.
22:10:19 <Vorpal> J_Edgar_Hoover, take for instance this stunned seagull (note: quoting from memory, YMMV)
22:10:36 <fizzie> Naming someone "ruler of the earth" sounds a bit... suspicious.
22:10:44 <J_Edgar_Hoover> Phamhntom_Hoover: Didn't you say it started with A?
22:10:48 <J_Edgar_Hoover> Or is that my bad memory?
22:10:50 <Phamhntom_Hoover> J_Edgar_Hoover, no comment.
22:10:57 -!- J_Edgar_Hoover has changed nick to Adhamhnan.
22:11:08 <Vorpal> does /usr/share/words contain person names?
22:11:13 <fizzie> "Frankly, we should be catching these people earlier. I mean, if you have a kid named 'Death-tron' enrolled in school..."
22:11:15 <Adhamhnan> Suspiciously close to "Saddam", I might add.
22:11:16 <Adhamhnan> As in HUSSEIN.
22:11:31 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes, that's what takes up all your disk space!
22:11:33 <Adhamhnan> fizzie: Source?
22:11:38 <Adhamhnan> Googling just showed one archived TV Tropes discussion page. :p
22:11:51 <fizzie> Adhamhnan: That Ozy and Millie webcomic, though I located that quote from the aforementioned tvtropes discussion page.
22:12:04 <fizzie> Last time I was reminded of it I actually bothered to find the actual strip too.
22:12:20 <Adhamhnan> " In other news, Penguin Classics has decided not to publish all the commas removed from Humboldt’s Gift by Mr. Bellow while he was originally revising the manuscript."
22:12:21 <Adhamhnan> Wat.
22:12:23 <Adhamhnan> *"In
22:12:43 <Sgeo> o.O
22:12:53 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Adhamhnan, it's cited to Ozy and Millie, so the original source will be a PNG.
22:13:06 <Adhamhnan> Phamhntom_Hoover: Right. Unless someone goes and transcribes them all.
22:13:07 <Sgeo> The template I made is #411 on most transcluded templates
22:13:09 <fizzie> http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20040603.html
22:13:17 <Adhamhnan> Sgeo: Ego ego ego.
22:13:31 <Phamhntom_Hoover> fizzie, Jesus.
22:13:38 <Phamhntom_Hoover> How the hell did you do that?
22:13:39 <Adhamhnan> fizzie is Jesus.
22:13:44 <Sgeo> Adhamhnan, you reminded me of it recently
22:13:46 <Adhamhnan> He just flipped through every comic, sequentially, until he found that one.
22:13:50 <Adhamhnan> With his cyborg mind.
22:13:52 <fizzie> Phamhntom_Hoover: That's nothing strange: it's in a published book, and Google books search finds things inside the speech bubbles.
22:13:55 <Adhamhnan> (Jesus is a cyborg.)
22:14:00 <Goosey> I KNEW IT
22:14:01 <Phamhntom_Hoover> fizzie, O.o
22:14:04 <fizzie> http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=ozy+and+millie+%22death-tron%22&btnG=Search+Books
22:14:05 <Adhamhnan> fizzie: ...I love you.
22:14:10 <Adhamhnan> I cannot ever imagine thinking,
22:14:16 <Adhamhnan> "Oh! I remember! They published those comics in a book."
22:14:20 <Adhamhnan> "Hmm... Google transcribe books..."
22:14:23 <Adhamhnan> "To Google Book Search!"
22:14:26 <fizzie> It even highlights the word inside the bubble.
22:14:33 <Adhamhnan> "Aha, there it is... now what comic number is it... there we GO..."
22:14:36 <Adhamhnan> "...aaaaand link it."
22:14:38 <Adhamhnan> In, what, seconds.
22:15:13 <fizzie> Well, the book name says it's 2004, and after seeing it in context, I remembered the whole sequence was about eradicating evil, so that was just "/evil" in the 2004 archive.
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22:15:40 <j-invariant> elliott: equality of functors is annoying.....
22:15:40 <Adhamhnan> fizzie: Do you have anything, you know, useful in your brain? :p
22:15:43 <Adhamhnan> (Not that I do.)
22:15:49 <Adhamhnan> j-invariant: isn't it just equality of functions?
22:15:52 <Adhamhnan> which is, admittedly, just as annoying
22:15:56 -!- Adhamhnan has changed nick to elliott.
22:16:27 <j-invariant> if you just have simple functions f,g : X -> Y then f = g is forall x, f x = g x.
22:16:40 <elliott> right... are the functors more complex?
22:16:42 <elliott> oh, they are, aren't they
22:16:59 <j-invariant> Let C,D be categories and F,G : C -> D functors. Then we need to say that forall X, FX=GX and only then can we even state that for all f : X -> Y, Ff = Gf
22:17:11 <j-invariant> because Ff and Gf have different types (unless FX=GX and FY=GY)
22:17:21 <j-invariant> and Coq does not like that...
22:17:59 <elliott> j-invariant: you could do it in the same way as subtypes? maybe?
22:18:11 <elliott> j-invariant: except, just use a bijection
22:18:15 <elliott> j-invariant: i.e. make it Ff <==> Gf
22:18:21 <j-invariant> well I don't know about subtypes
22:18:23 <elliott> where <==> is just a function bijection
22:18:29 <elliott> well by subtypes i just mean like...
22:18:32 <elliott> yeah just go for a bijection?
22:18:41 <elliott> forall f:X->Y, Ff <===> Gf
22:18:48 <elliott> where <===> is just two functions, both ways
22:18:52 <elliott> and a proof of equality
22:18:56 <fizzie> Phamhntom_Hoover: Incidentally, I think it's done with OCR, and it's not especially good, since the regular-google excerpt text contains "HAVE ft WD NAMED DEATH-TRON", so it's gotten the "A KID" part wrong.
22:18:57 <elliott> i.e. to (fro x) = x and fro (to x) = x
22:19:33 <fizzie> I can sort of see A → ft, but W → KI is a bit less believable.
22:19:54 <elliott> Heh
22:19:55 <fizzie> Or the other way around.
22:19:56 <elliott> *Heh.
22:19:59 * Phamhntom_Hoover laments the lack of names equivalent to "dark lord".
22:20:29 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: "Phantom Hoover".
22:21:47 <j-invariant> elliott: line 306 of http://coq.pastebin.com/hRgqWQ6H - same thing as before except with SET now
22:22:22 <elliott> j-invariant: looks pretty good to me? I might be missing something
22:22:34 <Phamhntom_Hoover> OCaml: worth learning?
22:22:50 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: Maybe.
22:23:01 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Worse than Haskell?
22:23:02 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: It's like Haskell but impure, strict and unsafe. Also very, very, very, very, very, very fast.
22:23:08 <j-invariant> it's a type error "Hom' (MapOb C D G X) (MapOb C D G Y)" while it is expected to have type "Hom' (MapOb C D F X) (MapOb C D F Y)".
22:23:08 <elliott> Competitive with C.
22:23:14 <elliott> j-invariant: ahh
22:23:15 <j-invariant> but we know that GX = FX...
22:23:24 <elliott> j-invariant: you need to do equality elimination?
22:23:25 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, speed is for the weak!
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22:23:35 <elliott> j-invariant: like make it H and prove FX=HX and GX=HX
22:23:45 <j-invariant> I might just start fresh and see if I can set things with this in mind
22:25:46 <j-invariant> I'm not sure if A=B means we have a map A-->B
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22:26:17 <j-invariant> it's more "use A or B, doesn't matter"
22:26:36 <elliott> j-invariant: well yeah, but you can say A<=>B instead of A=B if coq doesn't like A=B
22:26:37 <elliott> and it's the same
22:26:44 <elliott> (obviously you have to define <=>)
22:26:54 <elliott> well, "the same"
22:27:01 <elliott> every set of the same cardinality is equal by that definition
22:27:02 <fizzie> "We paid for a product, whether it was finished or not, and we as customers deserve to have a working product. Therefore using us as guinea pigs throwing nonfunctional code at us is not right." Yet another way to solve any sort of an energy crisis would be to figure out a way to extract energy from all this indignation.
22:27:19 <j-invariant> that might be too relaxed?
22:27:35 <elliott> j-invariant: maybe ... but it'll definitely work
22:27:41 <elliott> j-invariant: and i personally think sets with the same cardinality *are* the same :)
22:27:57 <Phamhntom_Hoover> <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: It's like Haskell but impure, strict and unsafe. Also very, very, very, very, very, very fast. ← so wait, it doesn't have the nice bits of Haskell but is faster?
22:28:00 <elliott> fizzie: At the same time, anyone complaining about a bug in ANY WAY and saying that Minecraft isn't tested at all gets told "lol UR the tester".
22:28:08 <elliott> fizzie: Which is just silly.
22:28:13 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: It's still a functional language.
22:29:01 <elliott> Anyone know that Python-ish C-level language? I distinctly recall it ...
22:30:56 <elliott> Aww man, you were able to store things in your 2x2 inventory crafting area until the beta update.
22:30:58 <elliott> I didn't know that.
22:31:37 <elliott> Vorpal: The super-rare thing is just a single person's special outfit.
22:31:52 <elliott> fizzie: "The downside of the mojang cape is that everyone thinks it's an item and therefore they can kill me to receive one" --C41813981398189.
22:31:55 <elliott> fizzie: I think we have a duty here.
22:32:12 <elliott> [["The mojang cape is [...] an item and therefore they can kill me to receive one" --/r/Minecraft; hopefully intentional.)
22:32:15 <elliott> *("
22:32:27 <fizzie> Heh, clevur.
22:33:02 <fizzie> But wasn't the cape thing already mentioned in the same list as the "even more rare" thing?
22:33:18 <elliott> fizzie: Jeb doth beggeth to differ; http://i.imgur.com/XJDhN.png
22:33:42 <elliott> I suggest we track Notch down and brutally murder him, repeatedly, in a futile attempt to get the cape.
22:33:50 <elliott> Or just because DAMMIT NOTCH.
22:33:57 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, then what?
22:34:02 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: Then we kill him some more.
22:34:04 <fizzie> Oh, okay; so it's a single-person special thing in addition to the cape.
22:34:11 <Goosey> Why are we suggesting to kill notch?
22:34:12 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Who else will be masochistic enough to develop his code further?
22:34:18 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Goosey, because he's an IDIOT.
22:34:26 <Goosey> Other than that
22:34:32 <fizzie> Because CAPE.
22:34:52 <elliott> Goosey: Because god dammit Notch.
22:34:57 <Goosey> lol
22:35:16 <elliott> This is for a bug. And this is for another bug! And we'll be here until Saturday!
22:36:08 <Goosey> Speaking of Minecraft
22:36:13 <Goosey> It's so fucking laggy
22:36:29 <elliott> Goosey: Yes, it's because of DEAF LECAY.
22:36:31 <Goosey> I can play crysis, but not minecraft?
22:36:32 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, "This is for a bug! This is for the 43 bugs and 3 "fixes" of entertaining aspects of gameplay you removed in the bugfix!"
22:36:42 <Goosey> So if i delete all the trees in an area....:D
22:36:44 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: This is because you're Swedish!
22:36:52 <elliott> This is just because I hate you!
22:37:02 <elliott> fizzie: http://twitter.com/Ridder_Graniet/status/17306802005741569 http://twitter.com/notch/status/17306923489566720
22:37:17 <elliott> "Notch could be the ultimate troll if he wanted to be.
22:37:18 <elliott> How hilarious would it be if he made one more release which was incredibly and purposefully broken and then retired from Minecraft."
22:37:28 <elliott> Isn't he already making releases that are incredibly and purposefully broken?
22:37:29 <Goosey> I'd do it
22:37:35 <elliott> I can't think of any other explanation for the bugs.
22:37:46 <fizzie> "<S1lver94> please make that minecraft can handle ä,ü and ö" "<notch> coming tomorrow, I fixed it before I left work today" -- I didn't even know they were broken.
22:37:48 <Goosey> I'm going to block the patch updater and run old minecraft :/
22:37:55 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/SQhzh.png What.
22:38:00 <elliott> Goosey: good luck using SMP
22:38:01 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, because Notch does not actually understand coding.
22:38:07 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/SQhzh.png Indeed.
22:38:23 <Goosey> I don't play smp much
22:38:24 <Goosey> too broken
22:38:36 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: LOL DUPLICATION.
22:38:39 <elliott> "Every time you throw a tool, two or more of that same tool are thrown. Each of those, when picked up, can also duplicate when thrown.
22:38:39 <elliott> When you die, every tool you have is thrown, and is subject to the same duplication.
22:38:39 <elliott> The best part is is that duplicated tools are unusable. The server detects them as duplicates, and thus are immediately destroyed after one use. Add this to the few PKers that camp the spawn point and you get tools everywhere."
22:38:45 <elliott> LOL SMP
22:38:47 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It still eludes me why anyone would decide to have two completely separate lumps of code for single- and multiplayer/
22:38:53 <elliott> Goosey: SMP isn't all that buggy if you disable the survival part.
22:38:55 <elliott> i.e. health.
22:39:04 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It's *obvious* that SP is just a special case of MP.
22:39:11 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/GNrcO.jpg MY SOULMATE
22:39:50 <Goosey> elliott, inventory
22:39:52 <elliott> "Beta, taking everything working in alpha and breaking it, and then adding leaf decay."
22:39:53 <elliott> "You can either have leaf decay or everything else, make up your minds."
22:40:05 <elliott> Goosey: Well, it's server-side now. So duplication is broken. :p
22:40:09 <elliott> (It was a feature!)
22:40:12 <Goosey> Idc about leaf decay
22:40:16 <Phamhntom_Hoover> I'm not playing MC until Notch fixes things to ineiros' high standards.
22:40:18 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: "The downside of the mojang cape is that everyone thinks it's an item and therefore they can kill me to receive one" --C41813981398189. <-- hah
22:40:26 <elliott> "It is complete anarchy in there right now...
22:40:27 <elliott> The laws of physics don't even apply. I got in a boat and sank through the ground."
22:40:32 <fizzie> I'd still like to know if adding 360*24*60*60*1000 to the value in ~/.minecraft/bin/version will automagically block the updating functionality (for the next year) without disabling the logging-in thing.
22:40:44 <elliott> *cough*
22:40:53 <elliott> Turning and turning in the widening gyre
22:40:54 <elliott> The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
22:40:54 <elliott> Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
22:40:54 <elliott> Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
22:40:54 <elliott> The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
22:40:54 <elliott> The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
22:40:56 <elliott> The best lack all conviction, while the worst
22:40:58 <elliott> Are full of passionate intensity.
22:41:03 <elliott> Didn't you know that was about the Minecraft beta?
22:41:30 <elliott> (And not a single fuck was given that day.)
22:41:40 <elliott> "on one server I got in a boat, which forced me out of the server from some java socket error. then when I came back both me and the boat were still there. then the boat left my clone sitting in the air and decided to repeatedly smash itself into a stone wall. this all took place in my mine."
22:41:54 <elliott> "on one server I got in a boat, which forced me out of the server from some java socket error. then when I came back both me and the boat were still there. then the boat left my clone sitting in the air and decided to repeatedly smash itself into a stone wall. this all took place in my mine."
22:41:56 <elliott> erm
22:41:58 <elliott> "Inaccurate. That JPEG has a much better framerate than Minecraft on Windows 7 64 currently.{I used to get 30-40 in Alpha on Far}"
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22:42:05 <elliott> 0 FPS, fuck yeah.
22:42:29 <Vorpal> `addquote <Goosey> I can play crysis, but not minecraft?
22:42:40 <HackEgo> 252) <Goosey> I can play crysis, but not minecraft?
22:43:01 <elliott> <Phamhntom_Hoover> I'm not playing MC until Notch fixes things to ineiros' high standards.
22:43:07 <elliott> Maybe we should just get the hellworld out again.
22:43:15 <Goosey> elliott, I used to get 150-160 :/
22:43:19 <elliott> YOU WANT CHAOS?! I'LL GIVE YOU CHAOS!!
22:43:21 <Goosey> now I get 10-15 at best
22:43:43 <Goosey> Honestly
22:43:47 <Goosey> when I think of the source for minecraft
22:43:53 <Phamhntom_Hoover> If MC were any less fun to play, I wouldn't be playing it until Notch left and Donald Knuth rewrote it from scratch.
22:44:04 <Goosey> I can't help but think how terribly obfuscated and inefficient it is
22:44:05 <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
22:44:15 <Goosey> it probably looks like rat shit
22:44:18 <elliott> Goosey: I don't think anyone's actually analysed the performance.
22:44:18 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Goosey, the best part is that Notch is going to RELEASE it!
22:44:26 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
22:44:26 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Once everyone's stopped buying.
22:44:27 <HackEgo> 253) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
22:44:43 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Which, given the state of beta, I would estimate to be in about 3 weeks.
22:44:58 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I'd still like to know if adding 360*24*60*60*1000 to the value in ~/.minecraft/bin/version will automagically block the updating functionality (for the next year) without disabling the logging-in thing. <--- does that work?
22:44:58 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbTEVbQLC8s
22:45:03 <Vorpal> for now I mean
22:45:06 <Goosey> vorpal
22:45:07 <Goosey> let me try
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22:45:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: If I knew, I wouldn't have to wonder.
22:45:38 <Vorpal> I have a copy of the old version
22:45:38 <elliott> fizzie: You could just try, with an old backup.
22:45:40 <fizzie> I have a feeling it won't, since it'd be so easy I'd have seen it on the forumlons.
22:45:40 <elliott> If you have one.
22:45:53 <elliott> fizzie: If you mean minecraftforum, um, the average IQ is something like "duck" there.
22:46:13 <Goosey> loaded flatgrass
22:46:14 <Goosey> no lag
22:46:17 <Goosey> stupid trees
22:46:17 <fizzie> Also, I have gotten the updates when I've just copied the minecraft.jar in place and left the new-version "version" file in place, so I think it does check the .jar files too, but that's just me.
22:46:26 <fizzie> BURN THE TREES.
22:46:32 <elliott> <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbTEVbQLC8s
22:46:35 <elliott> what is this terrible thing
22:47:00 <Sgeo> elliott, come on do the Qt 4 dance!
22:47:03 <elliott> gtfo
22:47:15 <elliott> fizzie: Why hasn't someone modded the client to say to the server, "oh ho, yes, yes, I am version 34589734589345 and my hash is bork"?
22:47:16 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Sgeo, go download Oolite and play it for a while. It should stop you talking for a while.
22:47:17 <Vorpal> Goosey, so did changing that version actually work?
22:47:23 * Sgeo wants there to be a GTK+ dance
22:47:25 <elliott> fizzie: It's _possible_, by definition, anyway.
22:48:14 <fizzie> Maybe someone has; I haven't tried to find out a way to play with the old version (and still participate in the authentication stuff) very hard.
22:48:59 <Goosey> Vorpal, nope :/
22:49:55 <elliott> Does *nobody* know of that language?
22:51:21 <Vorpal> elliott, which language?
22:51:45 <elliott> Vorpal: It had a Python-y syntax but was about as low level as C. *Not* related to Python like Cython is or anything.
22:51:59 <fizzie> Can you tell us anything more about it?
22:52:04 <elliott> Quite barebones web page; I think it had no CSS or something although IIRC there was a screenshot on the left or right with some mandelbrot written in it running... I think with a tiling WM, unantialiased X fonts?
22:52:06 <elliott> fizzie: Nope, I don't recall much.
22:52:09 <elliott> It was on reddit once, I think.
22:52:12 <Vorpal> elliott, vala?
22:52:12 <elliott> I'm not very helpful. :p
22:52:14 <elliott> Vorpal: No.
22:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Vala isn't Python-like at all.
22:52:24 <Vorpal> elliott, okay
22:52:26 <elliott> Genie, which is Vala's alternative "frontend", is, but no.
22:52:33 <elliott> It had indentation-based syntax etc.
22:52:50 <Vorpal> elliott, no clue
22:52:54 <elliott> Grr
22:52:57 <elliott> *Grr.
22:52:59 <elliott> :p
22:53:11 -!- zzo38 has set topic: The closer you are to the batsman, the sillier you are. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, only indention based languages I know of are: python, haskell, make
22:53:28 <Vorpal> or at least, only ones I can remember atm
22:53:38 <Vorpal> elliott, was it mentioned in here?
22:53:38 <elliott> Vorpal: It wasn't a well-known thing.
22:53:43 <elliott> I think I linked it ... maybe.
22:53:43 <Vorpal> elliott, if so you could grep the logs
22:53:55 <j-invariant> I'm stumped.
22:54:07 <zzo38> I try to look at the MSE codes to learn some things that I might or might not use to make TeXnicard.
22:54:16 <elliott> j-invariant: My arms are a bloody stump.
22:55:36 <fizzie> One thing that might be very likely to block the updates would be just to rewrite the "version" field of the response the launcher gets for "http://www.minecraft.net/game/getversion.jsp?..." (with a transparent-Squid and a script or whatever) to whatever you have; that way the launcher just won't try to download new packages, but it will still use the has-logged-in session ID for server connections. (Of course assumes the server is old enough to speak the same
22:55:36 <fizzie> protocol.)
22:55:57 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, oolite looks... primitive?
22:56:12 <elliott> Minecraft looks... primitive?
22:56:15 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, heck, even vegastrike has better graphics
22:56:25 <Vorpal> elliott, fair enough, but in a different way
22:56:29 <Sgeo> Dammit, elliott, I was going to say the same
22:56:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Oolite is an Elite clone.
22:56:35 <elliott> So.
22:56:39 <Vorpal> elliott, hm okay
22:56:56 <Sgeo> And to that you would have responded with indignation
22:56:57 <elliott> Vorpal: If it looks better than http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/BBC_Micro_Elite_screenshot.png, it's doing it right. :p
22:56:58 <j-invariant> idea: induction on syntax
22:57:11 <elliott> j-invariant: to implement a compiler?
22:57:24 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, there are expansion packs with extremely advanced graphics.
22:57:24 <elliott> or interpreter, whatever
22:57:29 <j-invariant> for equality of functors
22:57:40 <Phamhntom_Hoover> So much so that I cannot use them since they break my graphics card.
22:57:41 <elliott> j-invariant: ah
22:58:11 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, ever played EV override?
22:58:15 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, you might love it
22:58:16 <Phamhntom_Hoover> No.
22:58:19 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oolite_%28video_game%29#Critical_reception_and_reviews Rather well-praised.
22:58:33 <Sgeo> I'm not going to say I like it, but I got Vegastrike's interstellar movement stuck in my head. The idea of being fast when little gravity is acting on you, and slowing down near large masses
22:58:54 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, classic mac, doesn't run under sheepshaver. So you need a real classic mac for it. Or an ppc mac os x with classic emulation
22:58:57 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Sgeo, how utterly silly.
22:59:01 <Vorpal> a*
22:59:17 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, Oolite is cross-platform in a beautifully hideous way!
22:59:33 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, right, ev override was shareware
22:59:47 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, ambrosia software (I presume you heard about it)
23:00:11 <elliott> 10.10.27:18:53:21 <catseye> ===> Checking for vulnerabilities in python26-2.6.6nb2
23:00:11 <elliott> 10.10.27:18:53:21 <catseye> Package python26-2.6.6nb2 has a denial-of-service vulnerability, see http://secunia.com/advisories/41279/
23:00:11 <elliott> 10.10.27:18:53:32 <catseye> same for python25
23:00:11 <elliott> 10.10.27:18:53:38 <catseye> i guess i could try python24
23:00:22 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It uses Objective-C and the original Mac version was very OS X dependent, so all ports use the GNUstep libraries!
23:00:24 <Vorpal> elliott, looks like freebsd
23:00:28 <elliott> Vorpal: NetBSD
23:00:32 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
23:00:34 <elliott> s/NetBSD/Big Brother/
23:00:38 <elliott> s/Big Brother/Friend Computer/
23:00:43 <elliott> s/Friend Computer/NO YOU CAN'T INSTALL PYTHON/
23:01:17 <Vorpal> (ambrosia software is right up there along with spiderweb software amongst "cool sharware companies")
23:01:21 <Vorpal> elliott, don't you agree?
23:01:27 <elliott> Maybe.
23:01:27 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, see http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Griff_Industries for the ultra-cool OpenGL my-computer-breakery.
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23:01:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Ambrosia soured me a bit.
23:01:57 <Vorpal> elliott, how so?
23:02:05 <Sgeo> <3 Microsoft Allegiance
23:02:08 <elliott> They have this audio tool that lets you multiplex/redirect/etc. audio streams that I used to be able to record what's coming out of the sound and save it; except that its
23:02:21 <Vorpal> its?
23:02:30 <Goosey> i hate day/night cycle
23:02:31 <elliott> "trial period is over" mode was to randomly say "Hey, this is not registered, I am a generic female voice" (well, not /exactly/ that) over your recordings.
23:02:31 <Vorpal> elliott, stop doing mc cutting on irc!
23:02:40 <elliott> Very irritating.
23:03:00 <Vorpal> elliott, ev override had unusual trial period over stuff too
23:03:05 <elliott> Vorpal: btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwinia
23:03:11 <Vorpal> elliott, heard about it
23:03:27 <Phamhntom_Hoover> <3 Introversion
23:03:30 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and introversion is also right up there among cool companies
23:03:41 <elliott> Introversion is *the* coolest company.
23:03:49 <elliott> One disc has Windows/Mac/Linux binaries, and is the only disc sold.
23:03:54 <elliott> Another disc has the freaking SOURCE CODE.
23:03:59 <elliott> And they allow mods to be redistributed.
23:04:03 <j-invariant> or I could just add another axiom to Category
23:04:19 <elliott> So you can *buy a disc with the source code on* and *redistribute your modifications, even as binaries*.
23:04:22 <Sgeo> Meh, I rather disliked Uplink. Loved the music, not so much the game
23:04:29 <Sgeo> Then again, I only tried the trial version
23:04:32 <Sgeo> Is Darwinia better?
23:04:34 <elliott> The game is awesome.
23:04:38 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Sgeo, that is because, as has been established, you have terrible taste.
23:04:45 <elliott> Darwinia I haven't played due to not having a good enough computer when it came out.
23:04:46 <Vorpal> <elliott> Introversion is *the* coolest company. <-- no
23:04:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. It really is.
23:04:56 <Vorpal> elliott, they never released the final darwinia upgrade for linux
23:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, that took them down a notch
23:05:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I see. So what company is better?
23:05:15 <elliott> If you can't name one: SORRY, still the coolest.
23:05:16 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, I had great fun once I worked out that with a single relatively-high risk hack you can get a million currencies.
23:05:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I don't know any. But they are not perfect
23:05:27 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: Heh. I could never get the storyline to start.
23:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, still they are cool, but that thing soured me a bit
23:05:28 <elliott> brb.
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23:05:43 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't have read about the storyline
23:05:54 <Phamhntom_Hoover> So you can go from crappy starting equipment, with some bank-oriented upgrade to OMGAWESOME supercomputer.
23:06:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> Darwinia I haven't played due to not having a good enough computer when it came out. <-- wait what
23:06:07 <Phamhntom_Hoover> *upgrades
23:06:11 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll try it agan
23:06:13 <Sgeo> again
23:06:15 <Vorpal> elliott, darwinia (awesome awesome) has *retro* graphics
23:06:30 <Sgeo> Is there a Darwinia trial?
23:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, it is low polygon
23:06:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, think so
23:06:38 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Sgeo, there's a demo.
23:06:43 <Sgeo> Awesome
23:06:46 <Vorpal> ah yeah demo
23:06:50 <Vorpal> not the full thing of course
23:06:53 <Sgeo> Maybe after Monday I'll try it
23:07:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo, first thing: disable mouse gesture interface
23:07:07 <Vorpal> it is bloody annoying
23:07:07 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Uplink doesn't work on modern Linux systems, though, due to the evils of shared libraries.
23:07:10 <Sgeo> And Braid. And get back to work on the Project
23:07:17 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, ouch
23:07:23 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, I know!
23:07:24 <Sgeo> And ban all IPs on Wikisuperosity
23:07:26 <Sgeo> ANd and and
23:07:28 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, was uplink the nuclear war one?
23:07:38 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Uplink's the "hacking" one
23:07:40 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, no, the Hollywood hacking simulator.
23:07:45 <Vorpal> oh
23:07:48 <Vorpal> I never played it
23:07:50 <Vorpal> sounds cool
23:08:14 <Phamhntom_Hoover> OTOH, after completing the storyline about 5 times and hacking into every system in existence twice I got bored.
23:08:16 <elliott> it had a real shell
23:08:31 <elliott> you could delete a box's os
23:08:38 <elliott> and it'd die
23:08:42 <elliott> forever
23:08:46 <Phamhntom_Hoover> NB: never side with ARC in the story mode; spreading that virus is ridiculously hard/
23:09:09 <Sgeo> I downloaded a revelation.exe from a fansite once. Never opened it, never intended to
23:09:34 <Sgeo> Except maybe in a VM
23:09:36 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, I presume a chroot with older linux would work
23:09:40 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, when approx?
23:09:51 <Vorpal> wait... 2001
23:09:53 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Also, if you run the revelation you get from the Arunmor campaign, you get a 30-second, autonomous way of taking out any server.
23:10:02 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, it was their first game.
23:10:07 <Vorpal> little chance of automagic deb chroot then
23:10:15 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Subversion looks so cool.
23:10:27 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, link?
23:10:37 <elliott> you could deposit into a bank
23:10:40 <elliott> and
23:10:40 <Phamhntom_Hoover> http://www.introversion.co.uk/subversion/ is the development blog.
23:10:56 <elliott> the money woiyuold be there
23:11:01 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It's extremely sporadic.
23:11:05 <elliott> in a new game
23:11:17 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, oh, if you got caught?
23:11:20 <elliott> would
23:11:22 <elliott> yup
23:11:24 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, what is the game about?
23:11:28 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, subversion I mean
23:11:38 <Phamhntom_Hoover> In the full version, at least, you could hack into the police servers and get people framed.
23:11:41 <Sgeo> <3 the Uplink music
23:11:47 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It's a pretty common mission.
23:11:52 <elliott> yep
23:12:13 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Although IIRC you can't get the elliptic curve decipherer in the demo, so good luck with that.
23:12:47 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, Subversion is AFAIK a Mission Impossibley game where you're the nerd in the van.
23:13:34 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, awesome
23:13:40 <Phamhntom_Hoover> DEFCON is also pretty cool.
23:13:47 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, that was the nuclear one
23:14:02 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Especially since you can have a pretty good time in MP even if you only get the demo.
23:14:25 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXyHhyDzE7w LISTEN TO IT
23:15:23 <Phamhntom_Hoover> You know what else was awesome?
23:15:29 <Phamhntom_Hoover> The soundtrack for Micro Men.
23:15:51 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Of course, since it was a fringe docudrama that only aired on BBC 4, it'll never be released.
23:15:59 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, have a copy of uplink?
23:16:16 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, on the old family Mac.
23:16:20 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Not on this computer.
23:16:22 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Anyway, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y8IkcUGV9w
23:16:23 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, for linux?
23:16:35 <elliott> buy it.
23:16:37 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Skip forward until music is playing.
23:16:45 <Vorpal> elliott, if it doesn't run any more...
23:17:09 <elliott> quake ii still runs!
23:17:12 <Phamhntom_Hoover> I loved that thing...
23:17:14 <Sgeo> elliott, advocating purchasing data?
23:17:15 <elliott> just use a chroot
23:17:17 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, it's libgtk1 IIRC.
23:17:21 <Sgeo> I think the world is ending
23:17:22 <elliott> so?
23:17:28 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Or some other stupidly low version.
23:17:29 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, *gah*
23:17:36 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's purchasing from INTROVERSION.
23:17:38 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Q.E.D
23:17:47 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, watch Micro Men to take your mind off it.
23:18:06 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, nah, after I listen to the video Sgeo linked
23:18:19 <Vorpal> it reminds me of Perfect Dark music (but more awesome than that)
23:18:27 <Vorpal> (though Perfect Dark was a pretty awesome game)
23:18:43 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Man, that music brings back memories.
23:18:53 <Phamhntom_Hoover> (The Uplink music.)
23:18:58 <zzo38> Try the game(s) I made. I made many different kind.
23:19:29 <Phamhntom_Hoover> zzo38, you are not Introversion.
23:20:12 <Sgeo> You can download the soundtrack from Introversion I think
23:20:24 <Vorpal> that soundtrack is long
23:20:41 <zzo38> Phamhntom_Hoover: You are correct about that. But maybe try it anyways.
23:20:47 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, are you watching Micro Men
23:21:09 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, no, the one Sgeo linked
23:21:23 <Sgeo> According to a YouTube commentor, there may be a glitch in the video
23:21:27 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, the Uplink soundtrack is long, obviously.
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23:21:42 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, I will watch the other one when you help me find uplink (I bought darwinia, after I tried it)
23:21:49 <Vorpal> (I never buy something before trying)
23:22:10 <Sgeo> Vorpal, what time?
23:22:18 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, http://www.introversion.co.uk/uplink/downloads/uplink-demo-1.54.sh
23:22:18 <Sgeo> 7:50 some awesomeness
23:22:30 <Phamhntom_Hoover> You should be able to fix it better than I.
23:22:41 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, I meant full version
23:22:45 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of game http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/games/xnazzyball.png or http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/games/meskilb.png or http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/games/oldgamescreen/009.png or http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/games/DiskCatch2.png or http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/screen.png
23:22:54 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, not sure.
23:23:04 <Phamhntom_Hoover> I think I got the Mac version from Ambrosia.
23:23:10 <Phamhntom_Hoover> zzo38, NO.
23:23:10 <Sgeo> zzo38, DF clone?
23:23:13 <zzo38> Probably you don't know without a description.
23:23:15 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, they were involved?
23:23:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is DF clone?
23:23:29 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, they're Introversion's Mac distributor AFAIK.
23:23:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, I hate puzzle games in general
23:23:43 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, ah
23:23:44 <Sgeo> zzo38, the graphics of that last screenshot look like they're from Dwarf Fortress
23:23:47 <Phamhntom_Hoover> For Darwinia, Multiwinia, DEFCON and Uplink.
23:23:51 <Vorpal> ah
23:24:09 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, their trial-over stuff is on crack however
23:24:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: They aren't. They are the CP437 character set, though.
23:24:18 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Sgeo, but less literate.
23:24:19 <Vorpal> (as exemplified by elliott)
23:24:34 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, are you watching Micro Men yes
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23:24:36 <Phamhntom_Hoover> *yet
23:24:40 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, uplink still
23:24:48 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, several minutes left
23:24:53 <Sgeo> Phamhntom_Hoover, sorry about upstaging you
23:25:04 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Sgeo, you watch Micro Men.
23:25:14 <Sgeo> After the Uplink soundtrack is over
23:25:16 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It's like the best thing the BBC have made since forever.
23:25:37 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, well. We will see.
23:25:56 <Sgeo> Vorpal, there's glitching around 11:20
23:26:07 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, but uplink music reminds me of Perfect Dark in parts
23:26:08 <Vorpal> not all parts though
23:26:13 <Vorpal> but I guess that is only natural considering the genre
23:26:20 <Sgeo> Glitching ends before 11:30
23:26:24 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Hey, I have a copy of Perfect Dark somewhere!!
23:26:43 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, well, it doesn't work well under mupen64plus
23:26:47 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, that is all I can say
23:26:47 <zzo38> For the last screen-shot, if you want information (and list of things that are not true in the "Criticize" section), see: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
23:26:51 <Phamhntom_Hoover> I've never *played* it, and I'm not entirely confident it or the second-hand N64 work, but..
23:27:04 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, hah
23:27:14 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, it is, or was, an awesome game
23:27:30 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, <3 Rogue Squadron, incidentally.
23:27:39 <elliott> Vorpal: the only reason pirating minecraft was acceptable for demoing is because there is no demo offered. you can easily figure out whether you'll like uplink from the demo. if you just want to pirate it, fine, but don't phrase it as trying-before-you-buy.
23:27:42 <elliott> and don't expect Phamhntom_Hoover to help you
23:28:05 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, never played that
23:28:09 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, genre?
23:28:22 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, space-sim-but-not-really.
23:28:27 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, hm
23:28:50 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It *should* be a space sim, but exactly one of the levels are in anything that could be called space.
23:28:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: Now do you like this game?
23:29:35 <Phamhntom_Hoover> It hardened me against escort missions early on.
23:29:48 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: the only reason pirating minecraft was acceptable for demoing is because there is no demo offered. you can easily figure out whether you'll like uplink from the demo. if you just want to pirate it, fine, but don't phrase it as trying-before-you-buy.
23:29:48 <elliott> <elliott> and don't expect Phamhntom_Hoover to help you
23:30:06 <Sgeo> "Some of the puzzles do not work correctly except on the author's computer"
23:30:26 <Sgeo> Oh, those criticisms are all jokes?
23:30:42 <Sgeo> We're not supposed to kill BIG_MONSTER?
23:30:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: That isn't true, though. Everything in the criticisms list is untrue.
23:30:51 <j-invariant> elliott: axioms like forall {X X' Y}, ObEq X X' -> Hom X Y -> Hom X' Y can't be realized
23:30:57 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Rogue Squadron and OoT were basically the first games I played.
23:31:05 <Sgeo> zzo38, Criticisms says to kill the BIG_MONSTER...
23:31:05 <elliott> j-invariant: goodbye constructivism :P
23:31:15 <j-invariant> there needs to be a way...
23:31:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes you shouldn't kill BIG_MONSTER. (You can't, anyways. But even if you could, you shouldn't. You should kill MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER though, because they are bad and BIG_MONSTER can help you to beat them.)
23:32:25 <zzo38> Understand?
23:32:38 * Sgeo decides not to trust zzo38 to write cross-platform software
23:32:54 * Phamhntom_Hoover decides not to trust zzo38 for ANYTHING.
23:33:14 <Sgeo> "so you have to use the same forked version of MegaZeux that zzo38 wrote"
23:33:34 <zzo38> Sgeo: This game is cross-platform software. Most of the software I write is cross-platform software and most of it works. (I have even tested some of my programs on Linux and they work.)
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23:34:08 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, so what about that micromen
23:34:15 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, decent music, but that's it
23:34:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, I meant in the sense of "is likely to write his own fork of the platform and make it run exclusively on that"
23:34:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: That is for Part II. Part I does not require it (but does work with my version of MegaZeux). I have only compiled my forked version of MegaZeux on Windows, but it should work on other operating system, too.
23:34:30 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, Philistine.
23:34:34 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, hm?
23:34:35 <Phamhntom_Hoover> I expected as much!
23:34:45 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, I loved uplink music!
23:35:02 <elliott> i bet Vorpal wouldn't even like the IT crowd!
23:35:07 <elliott> RABBLE RABBLE
23:35:09 <Sgeo> I love The IT Crowd!
23:35:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, that is what you mean. Still, you should be able to compile the one with PZX-feature on any operating system with C and SDL.
23:35:19 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, well, I did show him the "Have you tried turning it off and on again clip".
23:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, is that the one I seen a clip from where the technobable made sense?
23:35:28 <Phamhntom_Hoover> He responded positively.
23:35:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably.
23:35:36 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, that's a sign of QUALITY.
23:35:43 <Vorpal> elliott, something about the global interrupt table in the NT kernel or such
23:35:50 <Vorpal> which made absolutely perfect sense
23:35:52 <Sgeo> I've only seen seasons 1 and 2 :(
23:35:55 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, quite!
23:36:00 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, that
23:36:15 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Sgeo, Season 3... hmm...
23:36:25 <Phamhntom_Hoover> I'm trying to remember if there's been a Season 4.
23:36:28 <zzo38> Phamhntom_Hoover: What things you didn't trust me with? Maybe some things I cannot properly be trusted but some things I can do it why didn't you trust it??
23:36:32 <elliott> I've only seen sporadic episodes; last I watched was the (Street) Countdown one.
23:36:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I read about NT internals (don't ask why, I don't know). And I can tell you it was a perfectly sensible (if somewhat unlikely) problem description
23:36:50 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, was that the one where Moss ends up justifying the Iraq war?
23:37:09 <elliott> Phamhntom_Hoover: I forget.
23:37:23 <Phamhntom_Hoover> No, wait, that one was the one where he invents the bra.
23:37:29 <elliott> Vorpal: IIRC it had one issue
23:37:40 <elliott> Vorpal: in that he said you wanted X to happen when in fact you didn't, i.e. the opposite
23:37:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh?
23:37:42 <elliott> or something
23:37:46 <zzo38> Why don't you tell me why? If you tell me why and it is a genuine mistake, I can attempt to correct it.
23:37:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ah could be
23:38:01 <Vorpal> elliott, don't remember exactly
23:38:05 <Goosey> I'm making practical applications for redstone :/
23:38:16 <Vorpal> Goosey, such as the CPU?
23:38:23 <Goosey> well that would lag...
23:38:26 <elliott> Until redstone can control an automatic mining machine, I don't acre.
23:38:27 <elliott> *care.
23:38:45 <Goosey> that would pwn
23:38:51 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Vorpal, obviously one of the idiots on the 8th floor tried writing his own drivers for the printer and called Moss for help.
23:39:02 <Vorpal> Phamhntom_Hoover, haha
23:39:09 <Phamhntom_Hoover> THINGS THAT NEED TO HAPPEN: BOfH cameo on the IT Crowd.
23:40:26 <Vorpal> XD
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23:41:01 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Even better: the BOfH IS Renham Industries' network operator.
23:41:25 <elliott> *Reynholm, you ... thing.
23:41:34 <elliott> http://www.reynholm.co.uk/
23:41:56 <Phamhntom_Hoover> elliott, shh!
23:42:06 <elliott> wat
23:42:14 <Phamhntom_Hoover> Moving from the sublime to the ridiculous: Richmond is the BOfH in disguise!
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23:45:35 <Phamhntom_Hoover> zzo38, NO, WE DON'T AND WE NEVER WILL
23:45:53 * Goosey hides after remembering this is a akcd hate club
23:45:59 <elliott> Akcd!
23:46:02 <elliott> The best web comic!
23:46:10 <elliott> http://akcd.com/ THE BEST SPAM PAGE
23:46:17 <Goosey> xkcd...
23:46:26 <elliott> Goosey: Note: I only hate xkcd post-around-comic-400.
23:46:31 <elliott> It used to be excellent.
23:46:43 <zzo38> Phamhntom_Hoover: What did you not like about this game?
23:46:44 <Goosey> why is it not anymore?
23:46:54 <Goosey> and I like the black hat guy though :/
23:47:02 <elliott> Goosey: Because Randall went insane?
23:47:02 <Sgeo> "so you have to use the same forked version of MegaZeux that zzo38 wrote"
23:47:05 <Sgeo> whoops
23:47:05 <elliott> Or just ran out of ideas.
23:47:15 <Sgeo> "Your helpdesk request has been successfully received. You have been automatically allocated the ticket number O65LRV2T. Please record this number in a safe place."
23:47:59 -!- cheater99 has joined.
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23:51:02 * Sgeo has a Reynhold Industries ID card!
23:53:02 <Sgeo> SQL Query: SELECT `userid`, `username`, md5(`password`) FROM `intranet_users`
23:53:56 <zzo38> I am still in progress of Part II game, so I didn't put SMALL_MONSTER yet, but SMALL_MONSTER is neither good nor bad. Now BIG_MONSTER is good, MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER is bad, and SMALL_MONSTER is neither good nor bad; this works isn't it?
23:54:11 <zzo38> Sgeo: Now I am going to steal your ticket number and sell it in the black market for access cards.
23:56:51 <Goosey> hm
23:57:02 <Goosey> I created a semi controllable oscillator in mc
23:57:14 <elliott> there are known oscillators
23:57:21 <Goosey> mine changes speed bitch
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23:58:29 * Sgeo sics a female dog on Goosey
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