< 1293494418 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BLORP < 1293494460 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was over at a friends' yesterday, and they were playing Rock Guitar Band Hero Idol Game. They told me to play, and I said I only would if I "sung" by playing the melodica through the mic. < 1293494468 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long story short, five-minute guitar solo to Free Bird on melodica: Best idea ever? < 1293494682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: YES. < 1293494937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :D < 1293494981 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They play in some club every Tuesday. If I can figure out a reasonable approximation in a day, I could troll a whole crowd of people who think they're musicians. It would be ... quite entertaining. < 1293495068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AaronBurr < 1293495074 0 :AaronBurr!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1293495114 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why don't you deserve an A? you know the material, right? < 1293495213 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, do people who put off half a semester's worth of work for the last 48 hours or so ... beyond what should have been the absolute deadline, deserve As? < 1293495225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: http://wiki.hey0.net/index.php/Flatfile_Configuration#kits.txt < 1293495243 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "easy A" < 1293495246 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes, if you've learned the material. < 1293495246 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is getting this A really going to be a decent punishment for my brain? < 1293495263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, I answered a chapter's review questions without even looking at the chapter < 1293495283 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: excellent! < 1293495291 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming you got them right) < 1293495296 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not "What is X Y Z" sort of things < 1293495316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're more out-of-the-box. They test creativity and some understanding, I guess, but not knowledge < 1293495325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: We already know your university is crap. < 1293495390 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yeah, that chapter seems pretty useless < 1293495419 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293495456 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example question, just to confirm? < 1293495715 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Most people think of security as a cost to projects, products, or services: the cost of analyzing a system for vulnerabilties, the cost of providing products or processes to detect unwanted activities, the cost of products or processes to prevent or mitigate wanted activities, and so on. But security can also be considered a benefit, such as when adding security to a product attacts more customers or enables a provider to raise a product's p < 1293495715 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rice. Discuss the various ways that security provides economic benefit, not only to an enterprise but also to a nation." < 1293495842 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1293495846 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293495940 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What else leads us to believe his university is crap? < 1293495989 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what's the course on? "Ethical implications of software" < 1293495993 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the fact that it's crap < 1293496002 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have an IRC network or channel> < 1293496004 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1293496006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'm asking for details. < 1293496009 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the cool unis do < 1293496016 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: All his courses are taught by stupid people. All his courses have stupid people in them. < 1293496018 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we got a Christmas card from Oxford this year!) < 1293496027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's Random State University with thousands upon thousands upon thousands of students. < 1293496031 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what's MIT's irc channel? < 1293496039 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And he's in a course titled "Computer Information Systems" (IIRC). < 1293496050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Or something similarly not-*even*-software-engineering course. < 1293496065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, so... He could do *worse*, but we're not exactly talking good here. < 1293496090 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: dunno < 1293496093 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they better have one < 1293496104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo: what's the course on? "Ethical implications of software" < 1293496105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1293496112 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION usually twitches at the mention of software engineering < 1293496114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough*University of Phoenix*cough* < 1293496116 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ethic/economic/ < 1293496136 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if MIT has an IRC channel they'll be too elitist to let anyone else know about it :) < 1293496159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION usually twitches at the idea of programming being a lecture-teachable skill rather than being a hard-earned craft. < 1293496170 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I twitch at that too < 1293496173 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so what unis *do* you know with IRC channels, since you clearly have a small sample size? < 1293496181 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: McGill, UW, and Oxford < 1293496196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Up there with the idea that a CS degree is a course in programming. < 1293496202 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh god < 1293496207 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brick science! < 1293496232 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the university of phoenix is the anticool < 1293496260 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cryptography and Computer Security is the course < 1293496276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Degrees from the Crazy Drunk Hobo School of Dubious Merit are more valuable. < 1293496294 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: did you cover buffer overruns in extreme detail? < 1293496314 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Unless I skipped that material by accident < 1293496318 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: CS ought to be part of math, and programming should either be part of engineering or obliterated as a profession < 1293496327 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I didn't real much of the textbook like I was supposed to < 1293496330 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: like at my school! < 1293496330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: CS in my mind *is* a field of mathematics. < 1293496334 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: your course is fail then < 1293496341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: And programming is quite obviously a craft. < 1293496342 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CS absolutely is a field in mathematics < 1293496351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming is a craft < 1293496355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: To which engineering can be applied. < 1293496358 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an SE degree is debatably a programming degree < 1293496366 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's more okay < 1293496369 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's engineering < 1293496372 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ok. < 1293496395 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, do you want to read the paper I wrote? < 1293496402 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: CS ought to be part of math, and programming should either be part of engineering or obliterated as a profession < 1293496406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ the latter. < 1293496411 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CS is already mathematics (at decent places). < 1293496414 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obliterated by an AI < 1293496418 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you wrote a paper? is it full of complete BS? < 1293496421 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :software engineering (i.e. programming) is a perfectly valid discipline. < 1293496422 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: decent places are few and far between < 1293496423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: it's not a "paper". < 1293496436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: 90% of everything is crap, but you avoid it, don't you? < 1293496443 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, it's full of not very in depth discussion about a somewhat random hodgepodge of topics < 1293496456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it were up to me, "CS" would be dubbed "computational mathematics" or some such. < 1293496464 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes < 1293496476 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: CS and CM are two separate disciplines at UW, actually < 1293496481 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: then no. I think I've heard enough to know that taking that course is not worthwhile < 1293496493 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CM courses have a high overlap with CS and AM < 1293496495 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: CS is "computing theory". < 1293496496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ♥ < 1293496504 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: not the same as computability. < 1293496506 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ucalendar.uwaterloo.ca/1011/COURSE/course-CM.html is the CM courses < 1293496519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: CS is not about computers and it is not a science; it is about computing, and it is a field of mathematics -- computing theory. < 1293496524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"computing theorist" isn't as catchy though. < 1293496529 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(How about "mathematician" instead.) < 1293496543 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, are you sure that the plot for this DS9 episode wasn't cribbed from VOY? < 1293496556 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Almost certainly the other way around. < 1293496564 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Which episode? < 1293496566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: VOY gleefully cribbed stuff poorly. < 1293496571 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Captive Pursuit < 1293496575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DS9 is 99.99999% good and Voyager is like 100 - epsilon% bad, so. < 1293496584 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I look at the CM courses, though < 1293496586 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: 1993. It predates Voyager. < 1293496587 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite see the point < 1293496587 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: how does applying there work? are there a lot of US students? < 1293496624 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Probably quite a few; it's not terribly hard for a US student to go to Canada for school. < 1293496632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonus: Canada < 1293496651 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: thus the question :p < 1293496682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: applying? what about it? < 1293496687 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you apply, you might get accepted... < 1293496816 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, nvm then < 1293496834 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean to specific programs? < 1293496904 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Mathnerd314, where do you go to? < 1293496918 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is in HS still < 1293496921 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there are a fair number of US students at UW, btw) < 1293496922 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1293496933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Vorpal found your throne. also me. < 1293496934 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're considering applying to UW, I definitely recommend it < 1293496941 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grade 11? < 1293496944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you apply, you might get accepted... < 1293496944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, nvm then < 1293496950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, if I might get /rejected/, what's the point! < 1293496980 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, senior with a procrastination habit :p < 1293497001 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, try not to turn into me < 1293497014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: oh. You'd fit in perfectly then! < 1293497025 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: parents are reviewing essays ATM < 1293497026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all your highschool year names are stupid < 1293497051 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: which name would this be? < 1293497057 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it seems it is next to the cube being built < 1293497072 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I concur with elliott < 1293497079 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: freshman sophomore junior senior < 1293497080 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1293497083 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially sophomore < 1293497091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: and then it STARTS OVER AGAIN AT "COLLEGE" WHAT < 1293497098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, I'm a freshman. But last year I was a senior! < 1293497115 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grades, forms, or years please < 1293497139 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering how screwed up my college experience has been, I don't like to use those terms < 1293497144 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: don't forget the missing metric system either :p < 1293497229 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is just funny < 1293497236 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you should see UW < 1293497247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1293497259 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nth year doesn't even mean much < 1293497267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of co-op, failures, etc. < 1293497356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Considering how screwed up my college experience has been, I don't like to use those terms < 1293497357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1293497377 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, first few semesters, didn't have a full course load < 1293497378 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1293497401 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that too < 1293497407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of funny, actually < 1293497431 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the registrar's office tries to keep track of which term you are in by assigning "1A" "1B" "2A" to people but half the time it doesn't work < 1293497449 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and "4C" and "4D" terms happen) < 1293497457 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though those are officiall still 4B < 1293497462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UW might be fun to go to. < 1293497480 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1293497503 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm biased though, I like Canada :P < 1293497519 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: you should apply! < 1293497524 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, skyping again? < 1293497555 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: looking at the admission stuff; confusing website < 1293497569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: OUAC? < 1293497571 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1293497679 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, if you are thinking of both CS and math, the thing about CS is it's harder to get into (you can't just declare it) and you need to pay extra $$. They won't let you in after long enough because of the $$ and they won't generally let you take upper-year CS courses without approval if you aren't in CS; also they get pissed if non-CS students try to take too many because they want your $$. < 1293497744 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like the best thing to do is stay the hell away from CS < 1293497765 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: some of the upper-year CS courses are awesome < 1293497767 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think I'll stick with the nice US schools where you can switch majors anytime you feel like it :p < 1293497778 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: whice ones? < 1293497812 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: non-CS non-Acturial Science math majors are a la carte < 1293497830 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: trains, compilers, programming languages, formal languages and parsing, graphics... < 1293497843 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's trains? < 1293497875 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real-time programming < 1293497986 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: colleges I'm applying to have all those and more, so not too worried about missing anything < 1293498006 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are missing something :D < 1293498539 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, but I'm guessing it's mainly the pain and suffering of another college app < 1293498572 0 :wth!~tianhou@2001:250:4001:302:223:8bff:fe54:5b7a JOIN :#esoteric < 1293498676 0 :wth!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1293499128 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1293499227 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293499284 0 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1293500120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yep, but I'm guessing it's mainly the pain and suffering of another college app < 1293500134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: ah yes, the famous "Wrestling A Snake With Spikes All Over It To Death" test < 1293500137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro can tell you all about it < 1293500234 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230205.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293500257 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293500380 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1293500380 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293500458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1293500521 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-221-22.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293500667 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1293500823 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1293501096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I did exactly one application. It took an hour for the formal application, and like 2 hours for the extra info form < 1293501111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: And then you had to wrestle a snake with spikes all over it to death, yes? < 1293501269 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nope < 1293501287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Look at how they lie. < 1293501313 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but you're from Canada < 1293501382 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230205.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293501525 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293501690 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: that's true < 1293501706 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: oh, I also had to mail them a transcript < 1293501726 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: I don't know about the process for foreign students, but I can't imagine it being much different from what I went through < 1293501746 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I was out-of-ontario < 1293501779 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.win 2 < 1293501781 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever. < 1293501797 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION distracts himself with supercompilation < 1293501807 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :supercompilation? < 1293501899 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, never heard of it before, but it sounds ool < 1293501900 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cool < 1293502066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. Specialisers are the only decent compilers. :p < 1293502090 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference ? < 1293502106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well nobody really knows what "supercompilation" means. < 1293502113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes it means specialisers, sometimes i have no idea what the hell it means < 1293502223 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;5;54 < 1293502294 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: managed to define products in terms of universal cone btw < 1293502300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: awesome < 1293502474 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, again mc < 1293502521 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230205.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293502661 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293502890 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: theoretically.. one could implement all sorts of categories and instance their limits etc etc.. at this point < 1293502925 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if it's a good idea though < 1293503401 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :categories? < 1293503407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Set? < 1293503469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: youre such a dickface. lol < 1293503484 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1293503488 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1293503571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your little temper tantrum against haskell < 1293503584 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want my mommy! < 1293503624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1293503629 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when was this? < 1293503631 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must read logs < 1293503666 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230205.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293503675 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/es29o/the_air_on_which_haskell_programmers_seem_to/ < 1293503730 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has it been proven that all imperitive data structures have an equally efficient functional version? < 1293503828 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1293503828 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293503871 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: iteration is equivalent to recursion? < 1293503971 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? < 1293503998 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there's an efficient functional queue, but can the same be said of all other data structures? < 1293504066 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on what you mean by "efficient" "functional" and "data structure" < 1293504198 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"as fast as C" "written in haskell" "uses 'data'/classes" < 1293504215 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1293504217 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equiv time complexities < 1293504365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: do we get to design CPUs that are optimized for functional code not imperative code < 1293504367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1293504377 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if not, then C will always have the possibility for advantage < 1293504430 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to pretend that microoptimizations don't exist? < 1293504462 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1293504541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :World < 1293504546 0 :World!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1293504634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Quadrescence: do we get to design CPUs that are optimized for functional code not imperative code < 1293504636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Please yes. < 1293504642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: :3 < 1293504647 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Quadrescence: youre such a dickface. lol < 1293504648 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :concurred < 1293504654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive tried to think of ways to do this, actually < 1293504661 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the opposite < 1293504672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"thrive reeks of foul stench of cargo cult" are words that could only come from reading the loper os blog waaay too much. < 1293504676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ < 1293504683 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you need mutation for ceratain things < 1293504689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the only thing i can think of is something that does in-place rewrites of ASTs < 1293504691 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1293504697 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: not really true? < 1293504699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ < 1293504707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it does lazy graph reduction < 1293504715 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting! < 1293504721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: implemented on FPGA etc. < 1293504725 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :memos are very interesting < 1293504726 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sexy < 1293504736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: core language is "typeless", it's basically just graph-rewriting-lambda-calculus < 1293504748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats an interesting nothing < 1293504756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: an interesting nothing? xD < 1293504762 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: persistent vs ephemeral < 1293504762 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1293504772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notion < 1293504775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well sure < 1293504776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Has it been proven that all imperitive data structures have an equally efficient functional version? < 1293504782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid fingers < 1293504799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: theoretical results IIRC suggest that functional languages are "inherently" less efficient than imperative ones in certain cases ... at least that's what Okasaki says, but: sufficiently smart compiler. < 1293504812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, as Okasaki goes on to prove in his book... yes, basically, all the structures you can think of have efficient functional versions. < 1293504832 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230205.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293504855 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yeah I already did Set though < 1293504875 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what's Set's limit? < 1293504888 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: huh? < 1293504895 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:21 < j-invariant> elliott: theoretically.. one could implement all sorts of categories and instance their limits etc etc.. at this point < 1293504900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said you did Set? < 1293504912 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: lol < 1293504930 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :limits: terminal and initial object, products, sums, equaliziers lots more things too < 1293504937 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: did it ever occur to you to simply define Monoids over Num rather than over Int < 1293504939 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set has them all < 1293504952 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: REEKS OF FOUL STENCH < 1293504974 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i wouldn't bother talking to Quadrescence anyway considering he's never once talked about esolangs. or done anything other than be irritating really. < 1293504990 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't implement any limits < 1293504990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, i respect anyone who likes wasting their time :p < 1293505044 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293505050 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well then why did you say you did it already? < 1293505062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"one could implement all sorts [...] and instance their limits [..] at this point" < 1293505065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one *could* < 1293505075 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:53 < j-invariant> coppro: yeah I already did Set though < 1293505102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: he already implemented Set, not found its limit. one would presume. < 1293505130 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :limits < 1293505180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so you respect me for the unpaid project I worked on? < 1293505189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what? < 1293505193 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. shut up. < 1293505440 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: do you know much category theory < 1293505529 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am starting to doubt whether it really does magically solve all problems :/ < 1293505551 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yes < 1293505554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: It does! If you believe in it. < 1293505555 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I'm just trolling < 1293505562 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293505600 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's what I hate about christmas - "if you just beleive in something with zero evidence or reasonable explanation... then you will find it!" < 1293505606 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :christmas films* < 1293505617 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: like religion! *ducks* < 1293505638 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's probably a general flaw of human thought < 1293505649 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why celebrate it... < 1293505718 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's the same with the loch ness monster, there's even a film that pulls this < 1293505728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully it's possible to overcome our cognitive biases ... but very hard < 1293505730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: gh < 1293505732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ugh < 1293506036 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230205.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293506061 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UFO films don't usually do that though < 1293506229 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more like science fiction < 1293506250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1293506412 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293506733 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230205.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293506947 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1293506957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikachurin < 1293506960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please /nick pikhqrn < 1293507040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new mcmap out. :p < 1293507045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relevant only to noansi users. < 1293507628 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1293508012 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293508043 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@c-24-9-98-117.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293509336 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you should put algebra on these categories : < 1293509359 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah that does not sound painful at all :D < 1293509364 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it will sort of be like a 20x more difficult version of what you did before.. < 1293509366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if i get this algebra thing working nicely < 1293509525 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly question: what is the difference between an FSA and a Turing Machine? is it the unboundedness of the memory ? < 1293509588 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: yes pretty much < 1293509600 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: a finite state machine can be written as a huge table of "state1 -> state2" < 1293509616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: e.g., for your computer, assuming no IO devices, the contents of registers, RAM, disk, etc. < 1293509621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the new contents, after executing one instruction < 1293509628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this list is finite since your RAM/disk are finite < 1293509653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: of course you won't find a real turing machine ... but TC languages are more interesting than FSAs generally < 1293509694 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:55.10] Quadrescence: did it ever occur to you to simply define Monoids over Num rather than over Int // Did it ever occur to you that a monoid might not actually support what Num does? < 1293509714 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um since Int is a Num ... < 1293509740 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :............... < 1293509741 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Finite-state_automaton < 1293509748 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I just read that < 1293509752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: heh :) < 1293509786 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: r u implying i should declare all Num t as monoids < 1293509793 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: if you think you have a fairly good grasp on what turing completeness is, why not let my languages plunge you back into deep confusion: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php < 1293509836 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php has a proof that the first is simultaneously TC and not, depending on your definition) < 1293509844 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hello Quadrescence < 1293509850 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey bsmntbombdood < 1293509850 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard you where stirring up some shit < 1293509855 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i guess so < 1293509874 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293509908 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, my understanding of a TC language is that given unlimited memory it can compute any algorithm - is that correct? < 1293509916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Define algorithm :) < 1293509928 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: a turing complete language can emulate a turing machine < 1293509928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: The most common definition is that you can simulate any Turing machine in it. < 1293509931 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: This, however, has ambiguity. < 1293509933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Uh, no. < 1293509937 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um yea < 1293509939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: There are plenty of non-universal Turing machines. < 1293509944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: So. No. < 1293509947 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1293509952 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php :S < 1293509957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And being able to simulate one doesn't make you TC. < 1293509958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: why not? < 1293509959 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A universal turing machine can emulate any turing machine - correct < 1293509970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: yes. < 1293509986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: but when you step outside of things that are strictly turing machines and try and relate this concept to other languages it is difficult :) < 1293509986 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the implementation really do what it says? < 1293509999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yes (but it's written in Scheme-1, which has only super-Turing implementations) < 1293510006 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: note the "H" procedure, it's a Turing halt-checker < 1293510016 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Banana_Scheme < 1293510035 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curious: which class should I expect to learn this stuff in? < 1293510035 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I didn't notice "Scheme-1" was something special < 1293510058 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: computability theory < 1293510064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/theory of computation < 1293510075 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't see that on my course list :-\ < 1293510078 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks again < 1293510147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: btw if you do (define (H n p) #t) that interp actually works < 1293510154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course just loops forever on invalid programs ;) < 1293510204 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Automata theory and Formal Languages < 1293510205 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1293510212 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: look for anything with "computation" in the name like "languages and computation" or intros to computer science theory < 1293510222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: pretty much, yep < 1293510228 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that might have it < 1293510230 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( 4 more years < 1293510231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automata_theory#Classes_of_automata < 1293510246 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes I could that class now < 1293510261 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh - perfect < 1293510265 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking for such a list < 1293510267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: #esoteric suffices pretty well for learning this stuff, it's just a bit of a random walk so it takes time ;) < 1293510268 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: you can, just get a book < 1293510270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that list isn't really perfect. < 1293510273 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: should implement scheme-n in Coq < 1293510280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: heh. NO :) < 1293510285 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, recommendations ? < 1293510289 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: just make it so that executing a program is interactive theorem proving < 1293510289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: (you could with axioms but it wouldn't construct ofc) < 1293510319 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: what do you know already, both in math, and compsci? < 1293510328 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, formally or informally? < 1293510332 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :informally < 1293510358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'nigh' < 1293510366 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know most major programming languages and a few esoteric ones. I've read an operating systems book cover to cover < 1293510375 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I get how programming languages are compiled < 1293510380 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats about it < 1293510382 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Do you know the lambda calculus? < 1293510388 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :math is <= calc < 1293510409 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a freshmen - so I havn't taken most university math classes yet < 1293510412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1293510451 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: What programming languages are you comfortable programming in < 1293510524 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, any particular book to read on computational theory? or do I need more of a math background first? < 1293510524 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if so which book should I read on that? < 1293510548 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well, despite its name, lambda calculus is really just a model of computation < 1293510559 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Have you read SICP? < 1293510635 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, ? < 1293510685 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Read the book "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"; and do all of the exercises. It will introduce you to a broad array of which are highly beneficial to know before diving into computability. < 1293510702 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, see pm < 1293510708 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott left < 1293510716 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:26.25] << elliott (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott) has quit: Quit: Leaving < 1293510779 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm comfortable in C, C++, Java, PHP, VB/QB (years ago), Bash, a few others. < 1293510791 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know Python, Perl, and a few others - but not that well < 1293510803 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" ---> which author? < 1293510815 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abelson and Sussman < 1293510826 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles < 1293510829 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't worry, the book will not rehash stuff you already know < 1293510839 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to learn Scheme < 1293510852 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i mean, some things you might know, but it's not a Learn To Program In Language X) < 1293510853 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ --> ok - that book is now on my list < 1293510873 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :creative commons textbook < 1293510874 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, you should do all of the exercises. If you do, you'll learn a lot. < 1293510874 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIN < 1293510898 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, I will < 1293510909 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its winter vacation now for me - so I should have time to do so < 1293510944 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: You'll learn a good deal about computability in it too. So you'll actually have a head start if you decide you want to read pure computability theory. < 1293511023 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, thanks for the link < 1293511044 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads < 1293511064 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Oh, do you have a Scheme implementation installed? < 1293511069 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, yeah < 1293511073 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which? < 1293511141 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, chicken < 1293511154 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: great, that's my favorite < 1293511187 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I havn't started yet < 1293511193 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be my first functional language :-) < 1293511211 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :procedural < 1293511219 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: The nice thing is that it's functional, but also has imperative and whatever constructs too. < 1293511369 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to do scheme -> haskell -> list < 1293511371 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lisp < 1293511383 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well Scheme is a lisp < 1293511409 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm? < 1293511423 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant the regular lisp < 1293511429 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Common Lisp < 1293511430 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: You mean "Common Lisp" < 1293511439 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1293511443 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any reason why? < 1293511485 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was told that scheme is the easiest functional language to learn. Then I wanted to learn something different (non-lisp) < 1293511500 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I want Common Lisp somewhere on the list < 1293511568 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme might suit your Lisp desire. It's like Common Lisp, except a lot more elegant < 1293511682 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: you might be interested in http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=729 < 1293511706 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bookmarks < 1293512811 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1293513380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable, maybe your first functional language should be purely functional? < 1293513417 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although hmm, that could be throwing you into the deep end I guess. < 1293513513 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I tried haskel already - but I got a little confused -- I guess I'm so used to the imperative structure that I need a crutch for my first step < 1293513583 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to go to sleep - gnight everyone < 1293513716 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night variable < 1293513734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... an esolang whose functionality varies based on time of day < 1293513748 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night variables only accessible at night, or somesuch < 1293513752 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1293513774 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo: it's been done but more extremely < 1293514126 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@c-24-9-98-117.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293514241 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you wrote this http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=788 < 1293514386 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes... < 1293514445 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I haven't read it yet < 1293514453 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: You should collect responses and criticisms < 1293514483 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reddit is collecting them for me < 1293514524 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: into a blog post < 1293514541 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293514637 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293514757 0 :kanzure!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1293514986 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: do you have a different language to continue this in? < 1293515266 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: what is cargo cult mathematics < 1293515395 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: yes, every number is a monoid < 1293515416 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a category has one object, then it's a monoid < 1293515428 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's true < 1293515434 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was talking about Haskell < 1293515446 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can have a monoidal category, which is a different thing < 1293515464 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what are you currently doing with your life again? < 1293515467 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, more of this? < 1293515500 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still talking about it in #haskell too < 1293515551 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I need to find somethign to do actually - I welcome suggestions < 1293515586 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: they're talking about it in haskell? < 1293515592 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that is very true < 1293515596 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmhmm < 1293515730 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: no, I mean school, work, etc. < 1293515738 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you actually just doing nothing < 1293515748 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: talking about what in #haskell? < 1293515763 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence not understanding haskell < 1293515774 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I just finished a maths course so I need to find something now < 1293515795 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence obviously knows haskell < 1293515808 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just because he said something vaugely acidic that people decide to belittle him < 1293515835 0 :cal153!~cal@rrcs-24-43-224-194.west.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293515868 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one math course? < 1293515881 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1293516326 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: why dont' you want to talk about it < 1293516384 0 :iamcal!~cal@rrcs-24-43-224-194.west.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293516385 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293516419 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I don't feel like making a blog post with the collection of everything. That is what the comments are for. Although I am required to accept a comment, I accept them all if they are not spam. < 1293516486 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: but you gave up on haskell for this... my question is what will you use instead? < 1293516530 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I gave up on writing the "tutorial". < 1293516550 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wasn't very fond of Haskell before it anyway) < 1293516560 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My previous posts suggest what language I primarily use. < 1293516564 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you give up on this problem? < 1293516613 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I wrote a "haskell for mathematicians" post. I was going to write another one. But I decided not to as a result of not wanting to explain the deficiencies (in my opinion) of the language. < 1293516837 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not even sure what Quadrescence is complaining about < 1293516852 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just that 5 is a number instead of an Int? < 1293516906 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is you can't define an algebra heirarchy in a useful way in haskell < 1293516910 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typed < 1293516933 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can < 1293516938 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you can't < 1293516940 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: has anyone done it? < 1293516954 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numeric prelude, etc < 1293516957 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people have sort of done it with the Numeric-Prelude < 1293516995 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure that numeric-prelude doesn't suck? < 1293517036 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked through the code. I don't want to say it sucks. It is better (mathematically) than the current prelude. But I wouldn't say it's ~great~ < 1293517136 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: My complaint was also about the community. < 1293517204 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: can you elaborat eon that please < 1293517342 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=788#comment-876 < 1293517479 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In mathematics, we strive to rid our expositions of ambiguity, and we deem the expositions with the least ambiguity as “rigorous.” <-- this doesn't fit with my picture at all < 1293517483 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what about you? < 1293517487 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you do < 1293517561 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: There are individuals, however, who thrive on the “mysteriousness” afforded by this unapproachability. They revel, rather than find distaste, in the “genius” image pinned to those who can speak in this technical tongue. <-- this is very astute and important observation < 1293517595 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: rigorous: rigidly accurate; allowing no deviation from a standard; "rigorous application of the law"; "a strict vegetarian" < 1293517620 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means if something is less open for interpretation --- less ambiguous --- it is more rigorous < 1293517635 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: a kind of pseudo-mathematics <-- consider (a -> b) -> (f a -> f b), it should really be Hom a b -> Hom (f a) (f b) < 1293517645 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even simpler example than Monad < 1293517812 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: something is probably wrong when you’re using Functor f => Algebra f b -> GAlgebra f (Cofree f) a -> (f :~> f) -> FixF f -> a <--- where did you find that code? < 1293517823 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't skype... :-) < 1293517832 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: the good ol' http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms < 1293517939 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: can you make any constructive suggestions? < 1293517988 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rename monad to something else, delete "morphism" from your vocabulary unless you have reason to need it < 1293518187 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: that's not radical enough < 1293518276 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, rename haskell to Fortran++ < 1293518287 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1293518291 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortress? < 1293518315 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293518336 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Fortress is just upgraded Fortran) < 1293518341 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1293518349 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that ++ doesn't imply upgraded; see C++) < 1293518363 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293518370 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: anyway what is your goal in programming < 1293518391 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really have a goal in programming < 1293518397 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not in general < 1293518406 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1293518407 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1293518482 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish someone would talk to me about something interesting < 1293518521 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go ask #haskell to talk to you about zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms < 1293518539 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I talk to haskell for a bit but it died down < 1293518573 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the truth I released about Haskell is sinking into their minds~ < 1293518581 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1293518700 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1293518822 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-243-139.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293518873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: The issue is that fundamentally, the entire type system does not work with your idea of what "mathematics" is. < 1293518875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which seems to actually consist of your interpretation of a set of common definitions *in* mathematics. < 1293518908 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there's a reason why the post was put in the category "Opinion" < 1293518996 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And no, the issue is that fundamentally, Haskell is trying to be mathematical (in my opinion!!!) by interpreting 5 as Num t => t, when the most sane option (in my opinion!) is Integer (or Int, which should be a special case anyway) < 1293519031 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not work in Haskell unless you want to have *no easy form of literals* for any other numeric type. < 1293519073 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not work because it was not designed to work ;D < 1293519096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, if it were to work, then type inference would break. < 1293519120 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then you no longer have Haskell. < 1293519137 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dono't know how anyone programs in haskell < 1293519138 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inference worked fine in my implementation. < 1293519154 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you find that you write some code then start to feel like it's all wrong and stop? < 1293519158 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, with an implicit cast from Integer to Num t => t? < 1293519163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That inherently breaks it all. < 1293519173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: s/in haskell// < 1293519176 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: just write int 5 what is the problem? < 1293519177 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, with '5' defined as an INteger to begin with. < 1293519194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Okay, but that makes a lot of stuff a *royal fucking pain*. < 1293519201 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Like what? < 1293519209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Every other instance of Num! < 1293519227 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1293519257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fromInteger 2 :: Int) + (fromInteger 2 :: Int) < 1293519268 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's just syntax, deal with it < 1293519282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Yes, and it's still agony incarnate. < 1293519307 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you need to be able to ignore taht sort of thing if you want to spot the deeper problems < 1293519310 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Or scrap "Int" and use a library if you need machine precision integers specifically. < 1293519313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Not to mention, any use of "x + 1" would be forced to have the type of Integer. < 1293519324 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1293519328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not Float. Not Natural. Not Rational. Integer. < 1293519342 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which... Defeats the whole point of *having* typeclasses. < 1293519376 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's a shame no one has yet invented any idea of contagion. < 1293519384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Contagion? < 1293519398 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like Integer + Float -> Float < 1293519411 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: it's impossible to implement that in haskell < 1293519443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*echm* Learn you some Hindley-Milner type inference. < 1293519455 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you need something more expressive than typeclasses < 1293519456 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I wrote an implementation just the other day in lisp. < 1293519498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And did you also solve the halting problem before riding away on your unicorn? < 1293519543 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What's the issue? You seem to be saying that defined rules about contagion prohibit the ability to type. < 1293519552 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do < 1293519557 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No they don't. < 1293519565 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They prohibit the ability to *infer* type. < 1293519576 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SoRrY, ~inferrrrrrrrrrrrrrr~ < 1293519581 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you can't solve LUB of a poset in Hindly-Milner, not even HM + Typeclasses < 1293519626 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, some Haskell extensions also cannot have types inferred, but those end up being special cases, rather than exceptionally common use-cases. < 1293519653 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that "x + 1" cannot be inferred if x cannot be inferred (under my model) < 1293519724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, the whole point of typeclasses is that you can define instances later. < 1293519740 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the memo < 1293519745 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are literally arguing against the entire *point* of Haskell's type system. < 1293519754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not merely the Num typeclass. < 1293519758 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to not get the point of what I wrote < 1293519758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally the entire thing. < 1293519764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And probably every other form of polymorphism. < 1293519828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny, it seems to me "It can't figure out from (Num t, Monoid t) => [t] that it's [Integer] because I happened to define only one instance so far." is what you're saying. < 1293519837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, uh, kinda inherent in polymorphism. < 1293519839 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, indeed < 1293519862 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you two - be more interesting :/ < 1293519866 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just arguing past each other < 1293519880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is used in almost every programming language. < 1293519882 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remind me; is there a way to define types in ghci? < 1293519900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Uh, should be just the same as in Haskell source. < 1293519942 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `data' < 1293519953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, apparently not. < 1293520047 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is too bad haskell doesn't have finite subtype inference, which would fix all the numeric bullshit < 1293520078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also too bad that I don't have a function that can tell me if any arbitrary function on arbitrary input will halt. < 1293520081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also want a pony. < 1293520085 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"finite subtype inference"? < 1293520095 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i didn't say arbitrary subtype inference < 1293520102 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're not aware, what i said is decidable. < 1293520119 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the paper by Duggan < 1293520121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That said, the Num typeclass is entirely crappy. Just not for any reasons you mentioned. < 1293520198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it really bothers me that Float is an instance of it. < 1293520214 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I hate Floats in almost every language < 1293520268 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does everyone want inference to be complete? < 1293520276 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea, I don't < 1293520284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: It's a nicety. < 1293520296 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One that certain extensions to Haskell breaks, anyways. < 1293520302 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: exactly.. it's just a nicety, it doesn't give you any theoretical guarantee about actual programs < 1293520323 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: that's approximately my philosophy < 1293520324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/breaks/break/ < 1293520355 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: What about using category theory to specify and organize programs? < 1293520383 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think it can provide nice theoretical underpinnings. < 1293520399 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know of anyone who thinks they're doing lambda calculus when they're coding in e.g. Scheme < 1293520402 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how the type system just makes sure your syntax is good < 1293520407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, people tend to gloss over at the word "monad". < 1293520418 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I personally don't see a huge amount of applicability of category theory to programming theory < 1293520421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I could be wrong < 1293520424 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could act as a meta type system that makes keeps the semantics of your code in check < 1293520436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatwhat < 1293520507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Well, there kinda is, but it's a bit hidden unless you're looking for it, usually. < 1293520542 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, by the same notion category theory has applicability to a child's arithmetic class, so hey. :P < 1293520547 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, in some sense there is, I suppose, but I have yet to see evidence of something that makes my life as a programmer easier < 1293520566 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I was just saying purely theoretically. < 1293520592 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the development of integers from peano arithmetic helps anyone do their taxes < 1293520597 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Theoretical underpinnings of programming languages are useless to me unless they actually help me program < 1293520604 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but they help with other stuff < 1293520613 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numbers are widely applicable < 1293520620 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming langauges are a comparitively narrow field < 1293520621 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ok under that definition, yeah, it's mostly useless < 1293520632 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: numbers are useful, sure! < 1293520636 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so advancements of number theory are more likely to have useful application < 1293520658 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas advancements in PL theory are respectively less likely to have useful application < 1293520665 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: do you program haskell? < 1293520668 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that PL theory can't have useful application - see type inference or GC! < 1293520672 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: not as much as I should < 1293520718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Arguably, monads actually *have* application. < 1293520730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even then, you're not caring much about the category theory about it. < 1293520747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're just caring that it's some form of object with bind and return functioned defined. < 1293520762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, the same applies for most of the "category theory" things in Haskell. < 1293520786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure it's kinda from category theory and all, but category theory itself is basically irrelevant to it. < 1293520801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and contradictory in some of the stupider cases, like Monads not being Functors) < 1293520889 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1293521131 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is haskell.org down < 1293521149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to do that often. < 1293521156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it's on a shitty server. < 1293521241 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after all, the server software was written in haskell!) < 1293521241 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, something I would like for haskell to have would be typeclasses that could somehow be instantiated with more than one set of functions < 1293521242 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kid < 1293521275 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am well aware of the size of wrenches this throws at it :( ) < 1293521287 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: hehe < 1293521414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ow ow ow. < 1293521440 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, {ZZ, +} is a monoid, but {ZZ, *} is too < 1293521450 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1293521461 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been working on that in the system i'm making < 1293521489 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: what abot mathematically structured programming? < 1293521508 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"system I'm making"? < 1293521509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do tell? < 1293521525 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?page_id=81 < 1293521591 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that doesn't say much < 1293521593 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe see the PDF < 1293521603 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the INFO section < 1293521620 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only really has notes and ideas, it's nothing solid; i didn't even plan on releasing it < 1293521906 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: looking over the section on algebras; you must be very careful about implicit introduction of == < 1293521961 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes indeed < 1293522008 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm generally assuming there that there exists an algorithm to determine if x == y; but yes you're right < 1293522017 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a fun one: < 1293522034 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if A,B are objects in category C. A = B means that there is an isomorphism between A and B < 1293522051 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to define composition you need equality of objects < 1293522062 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to check the composition is well formed) < 1293522096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but equality is not defined in terms of isomorphisms < 1293522109 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you just using that as an example of where = might mean something different? < 1293522136 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I like the notion of associative sequences but I don't immediately see applicability < 1293522161 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the ability to do pattern matching with associative functions < 1293522183 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm bad example < 1293522185 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: do you know Knuth-Bendix algorithm? < 1293522188 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1293522202 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help me !! :) < 1293522223 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know category theory, you should be able to figure out KB < 1293522244 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wan tyou to help me with Knuth-Bendix but you don't have to if you don't want < 1293522263 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am just lazy and it is late < 1293522292 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool alg though < 1293522683 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: btw, have you looked at proof verifiers? < 1293522693 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, extensively < 1293522733 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a difficult balance i am trying to strike < 1293522765 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that of practicality/usability and that of "correctness" overall < 1293522864 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are you in life, btw? < 1293522933 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am working on these projects full time at my father's home, if that's what you're asking, and which I'm exceptionally grateful for < 1293522958 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I asked you < 1293522990 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: oh, sorry, I missed that. first-year undergrad < 1293522995 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oh okay cool < 1293522998 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: educational background? < 1293523058 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No formal (i.e. admitted-into) Uni background, but I go over to the university and audit a good number of graduate classes. I did 6 classes last semester < 1293523081 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, nice < 1293523122 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly does auditing entail at that university? < 1293523141 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just went to the uni and sat in the courses. < 1293523146 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1293523150 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a formal audit then < 1293523159 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a "formal audit" < 1293523166 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you can get audit status in courses here < 1293523174 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293523183 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gets you more priveleges than just sitting in sometimes < 1293523190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: You're registered as an auditer. You're formally part of the class, just not actually expected to do coursework. < 1293523199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1293523200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1293523210 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you don't get any *credit* for it, but that's neither here nor there. < 1293523221 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1293523236 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. Well I don't know what benefits that would necessarily give. Maybe it's just a way to keep you happy about paying? :) < 1293523249 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: usually you don't have to pay extra < 1293523254 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if there were laboratory courses, that would make sense. < 1293523267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, you pay for the grade < 1293523273 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1293523300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also makes sense if the university ends up having nearly-full classes. < 1293523321 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you might get benefits like the ability to see reserved library books or access restricted online material < 1293523326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Registering to audit means that you actually know whether or not you're getting a seat. < 1293523363 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, makes sense, but seemed not to matter for the stuff I did, as there were usually no more than 20 kiddos < 1293523364 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that someone might squat th eseat < 1293523374 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, with graduate courses, it's probably not going to matter. < 1293523375 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, for grad courses it's probably not a major concern < 1293523395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless the prof gives you funny looks. < 1293523401 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1293523410 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the prof doesn't know who anyone is usually < 1293523435 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just though I was Another Guy for a while < 1293523455 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1293523479 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suspicion did increase when the weirdo lie groups/lie algebras prof had a "small-group" style of teaching < 1293523491 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we all got into small groups every day and answered questions < 1293523502 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: which uni? < 1293523511 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :university of minnesota: twin cities < 1293523525 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a weird class < 1293523530 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293523604 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two guys I got paired with were extremely quiet and anti-social :( < 1293523633 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just mumbled "mrmrmrmrmrmr orthogonal matrix mrmrmrmrmrmrmrmr" < 1293523643 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fun though, I never had that pleasure < 1293523648 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it wasn't < 1293523657 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like it could be, but it was a flop < 1293523670 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one ever knew what was going on since the prof didn't actually teach < 1293523888 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :teaching mathematics must be fucking miserable < 1293523931 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least to undergrads < 1293524060 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will almost certainly take several grad courses in my undergrad career < 1293524090 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: see the logs < 1293524105 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were talking about your post for a while < 1293524121 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: too lazy < 1293524278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1293524303 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, there's a plan at my school that actually requires Convex Optimization and Analysis to graduate < 1293524308 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahahahaha poor sods < 1293524322 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Analysis < 1293524338 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh 'Convex Optimization and Analysis' is a single thing < 1293524345 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1293524349 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a course at my school < 1293524360 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that sounds very... < 1293524367 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are some good algorithms in Convex Optimization but I haven't studied it < 1293524375 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun >_> < 1293524380 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hs been described as the most rape to ever be perpetrated in a single course < 1293524405 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably make you use MATLAB, so understandable) < 1293524416 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293524420 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very far from it < 1293524566 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1293524581 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its enrolment this term was 9 < 1293524587 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly 2 of them were undergrads < 1293524590 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know both of them) < 1293524597 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1293524631 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a cross-listed undergrad/grad course < 1293527072 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-91-192.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293527178 0 :sebbu3!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-91-192.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293527228 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1293527229 0 :sebbu3!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1293527359 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1293528583 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.46.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293528607 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1293529137 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1293533625 0 :Wamanuz4!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293535190 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293535252 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1293535939 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230231033.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293540802 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-4-149.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293540998 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293541776 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181134181.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293542060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1293542169 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-237-227.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293544677 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1293545896 0 :Wamanuz5!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293546122 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1293547478 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1293547987 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1293548260 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.49.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293548270 0 :sftp_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1293549225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WONKOTDOOG < 1293549445 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293549454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:31:42 elliott, see pm < 1293549487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mighten be a _tad_ difficult < 1293549534 0 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.125.212 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293549535 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293549562 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293549664 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:33:08 rename monad to something else, delete "morphism" from your vocabulary unless you have reason to need it < 1293549676 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: oh, oh, and rename "Commutative" to OrderDoesn'tMatter too?? < 1293549681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a warm fuzzy idea < 1293549708 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1293549711 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:49:56 pikhq: And no, the issue is that fundamentally, Haskell is trying to be mathematical (in my opinion!!!) by interpreting 5 as Num t => t, when the most sane option (in my opinion!) is Integer (or Int, which should be a special case anyway) < 1293549716 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore haskell REEKS OF THE FOUL STENCH < 1293549734 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously you are the most whiny idiot i have ever seen. and that's counting myself. < 1293549775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now now don't be so humble < 1293549802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*, < 1293549822 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:04:26 you're just arguing past each other < 1293549835 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it even an argument? Quadrescence is just wrong and he doesn't really care, we're just yelling at him. < 1293549994 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:58:01 hah, nice < 1293549994 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:58:42 what exactly does auditing entail at that university? < 1293550000 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you see they get out the e-meter ... < 1293550032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either elliott_ saw the same reddit post as i did or this is synchronicity... < 1293550045 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: erm which post, i haven't loaded reddit yet today < 1293550046 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well i have now) < 1293550060 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cadencewatch.com/420-watch classy < 1293550060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll have to reload myself < 1293550111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the top r/pics one < 1293550142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. the top post on reddit frontpage for non-logged in users) < 1293550173 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293550183 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: isn't that a rather _tenuous_ bit of synchronicity :) < 1293550203 0 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1293550211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i didn't know the scientology meaning of "auditing" until that post < 1293550313 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:17:25 --- join: elliott (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott) joined #esoteric < 1293550313 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:17:34 20:31:42 elliott, see pm < 1293550317 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said "i was offline" after this. < 1293550320 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh look variable's here now < 1293550323 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now /that's/ synchronicity < 1293550329 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i just saw that in the logs) < 1293550343 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1293550404 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: can you resend last night's pm? < 1293550405 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't get it < 1293550840 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: I don't skype... :-) <-- Ilari mistab, meant ineiros < 1293550855 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, anything happened on cube? < 1293550865 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: just woke up < 1293550883 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, oh. Just got home myself. < 1293550889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cubistic matters < 1293550894 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: bet you were up at like 4 am! < 1293550898 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRAZY MAN < 1293550931 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, eh? I woke up 14:00 today, then I went to shop and made use of the warranty of a product I bought there about a year ago. < 1293550958 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, also am/pm: can never remember which is which. < 1293550985 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: am is early. pm is late. < 1293550992 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293551006 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, any mnemonic for that? < 1293551007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :post meridiem : after midday < 1293551010 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 12:00 am because midnight is early morning :) < 1293551014 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, see oerjan and then learn latin < 1293551015 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, latin doesn't help < 1293551026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"post" isn't that unusual... < 1293551029 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I suck at natural languages < 1293551039 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but how to remember it isn't after midnight instead < 1293551050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"diem" means day < 1293551055 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293551067 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: meridiem - meridian < 1293551071 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noon = meridian hour < 1293551081 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :post meridiem, post meridian, post-noon < 1293551104 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293551119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a is for ante of course but that's not as common as post i think < 1293551134 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ever had a chunk load and then unload? :) < 1293551136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :antediluvian < 1293551138 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw new mcmap out, only relevant if you use -c < 1293551146 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, -c ? < 1293551148 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use -s < 1293551164 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-c is noansi. < 1293551171 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really, why not switch to % 6 for months. So we are no in the second june I think. < 1293551175 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use: < 1293551176 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/code/mcmap$ _build/mcmap -c -x 2 -s 300x300 a322.org:25566 < 1293551181 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes as much sense as taking hour % 12 < 1293551205 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, as in, no colour codes? I like the colour codes. I use a proper terminal < 1293551216 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I do too! Except it has a light background and dark text. < 1293551222 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So colour codes don't work very well. < 1293551223 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, that is not proper < 1293551225 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way I define it < 1293551247 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, but the solution is trivial: use background colour codes to set it to black as well ;) < 1293551295 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: joke) < 1293551315 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I find the contrast of lit text on totally-off pixels to be jarring. < 1293551394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been doing dark-on-light every now and then too, but I'm on my dark period now. < 1293551408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1293552384 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the esolang wiki down? < 1293552389 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox can't find the server at esoteric.voxelperfect.net. < 1293552409 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/ works < 1293552490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1293552548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1293552688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNS for esoteric.voxelperfect.net doesn't resolve < 1293552751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1293552776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.voxelperfect.net has the text: "NOTICE: This domain name expired on 12/27/2010 and is pending renewal or deletion" < 1293552812 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 11300 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 1 < 1293552821 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that explains it. < 1293552869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolangs.org should be good until 24 May 2011 < 1293552881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's only a few months... < 1293552886 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, after the manual backup, did you remember to turn on saves? < 1293552944 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh dear. < 1293553057 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are we /sure/ that graue likes us enough to renew it? < 1293553091 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... querying DNS records for esolangs.org doesn't give AD flag for me... < 1293553091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm sending him an email < 1293553224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's AD flag? < 1293553269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just going by whois record or esolangs.org: Expiration Date:24-May-2011 19:21:16 UTC < 1293553347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's hosted by everydns's servers, that's one of the free dns services. < 1293553384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AD is a dnssec-specified flag that's set if the server has gotten the zone data in a dnssec-enabled way. < 1293553391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: what's AD flag? < 1293553397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1293553481 0 :Warrigal!ihope@thay.Stanford.EDU JOIN :#esoteric < 1293553492 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Warrigal (ihope@thay.Stanford.EDU) < 1293553501 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal: congratulations? < 1293553515 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's as if I were going to Stanford now. < 1293553533 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal is at Stanford, tswett is at GVSU. < 1293553537 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have determined this using science. < 1293553544 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely. < 1293553546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLONES < 1293553599 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now, since I cannot bear the shame of being at GVSU instead of Stanford, I will die. < 1293553603 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.1.0 < 1293553621 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, he was terminated with extreme prejudice. < 1293553632 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :tswett < 1293553641 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: now please give back the body of the Stanford guy you murdered. < 1293553654 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that Stanford guy is still alive. < 1293553667 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT INTELLIGENT ENOUGH DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD TAKE IT OUT ON THOSE WHO ARE < 1293553689 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know where he is, but his name is Mason Chua. Maybe you can find him. < 1293553725 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's the guy I locked up in a closet. < 1293553923 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293553942 0 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1293553958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh all my visited wiki links turned blue again... < 1293553967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what he saw last < 1293554027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: DID YOU REMEMBER TO FEED HIM < 1293554044 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't feed him; I'm not in California. < 1293554052 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... yeah, I guess he's going to be dead in a while. < 1293554068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how sad. < 1293554070 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles Mason Chua < 1293554115 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, he has an amateur radio license. < 1293554156 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can see his address. < 1293554280 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gasp! He's a real person! < 1293554283 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What have I done? < 1293554284 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293554332 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I need to know. < 1293554339 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How the hell does Google get its website summaries? < 1293554342 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Torsion Operating System < 1293554342 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multitasking SASOS with transparent data persistence: users and application programmers need not know or care that system memory is transient and must be ... < 1293554342 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.torsion.org/ - Cached - Similar < 1293554346 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That text is *nowhere* on the Torsion site. < 1293554355 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I haven't seen ... anyone ... refer to Torsion apart from the Loper OS blog, which doesn't say that. < 1293554361 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Google have people writing these all the time?! < 1293554389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :EGASSEMTERCESATONSISIHT | voxelperfect.net has expired, the wiki is still reachable at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1293554923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is theoretically possible for them to have submitted a separate metadata text file thing as a sitemap thorough google's web-admin things, but I don't know how likely that is. < 1293554947 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It doesn't seem to have robots.txt or sitemap.xml files on-site.) < 1293554952 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I doubt it, since the website is circa 2004. < 1293554954 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-4-149.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293554956 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Also, I see this shit for *loads* of websites. < 1293554965 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Like, accurate, objective summaries of things that are /nothing/ like the pages themselves. < 1293554979 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps they use that AI for theirs. < 1293554982 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: (Google also makes up its own page titles a lot ... and they're usually better.) < 1293556225 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "TIL torches can be placed on leaves only if fast graphics are on, though won't disappear if changed back to fancy graphics." < 1293556239 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, TIL? < 1293556239 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "Apparently this also applies to mobs? I've heard they don't spawn on trees if fancy graphics are on, but they will if fast graphics are." < 1293556242 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Today I Learned < 1293556248 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, also I think that is no longer the case about leaves < 1293556248 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: TIL Notch is a terrible coder < 1293556262 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think in fancy, leaves are treated exactly like glass. In fast, they're treated exactly like grass... and all the connotations that brings." < 1293556280 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(Disclaimer: this is mostly guesswork) It's more complicated than that: basically, glass and fancy-leaves are treated as air that you can't walk through. (incidentally, this also means that if you drop an item and place a block of glass over it, the item will not 'pop' out, but will be sealed inside the glass)" < 1293556282 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, no longer the case, I tried it some weeks ago and I could place on fancy leaves < 1293556283 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: this game ... so badly written < 1293556408 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: try googling the phrase. it seems to be text from the various sites linking to it. < 1293556425 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gaah < 1293556427 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.NET < 1293556454 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: most probably this: http://www.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Single_Address_Space/ < 1293556473 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293556496 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember when dmoz made any sense at all :) < 1293556816 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOD < 1293556823 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, no - it never did :-) < 1293556846 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fixes up the article :P < 1293556851 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, working on that now :-) < 1293556872 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK then < 1293556873 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll add it to the list when its ready < 1293556974 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, is it turing complete? < 1293556987 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: I don't know! :P < 1293556990 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually - you could fix up the article < 1293556992 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::} < 1293557006 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: It's hard to define TCness in this case because ... well ... it's time-dependent. < 1293557016 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think no because you can't write a program that predictably emulates a universal Turing machine. < 1293557038 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you can - as long as you *start* it at the right time < 1293557055 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it will only work that once and never again :-} < 1293557076 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: what is the difference between an operation and an instruction? < 1293557083 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes you can - as long as you *start* it at the right time < 1293557084 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instruction is the actual value in memory < 1293557087 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, there is no instruction to sleep < 1293557091 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instruction is the actual value in memory; operation is what happens < 1293557093 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it might be possible ... < 1293557097 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah "delay" < 1293557111 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delay sleeps for one clock cycle < 1293557119 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293557133 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long is a clock cycle? < 1293557149 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the processor < 1293557152 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like a NOP in assembly < 1293557194 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Wouldn't "nop" be a clearer name then? :p < 1293557204 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1293557215 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was originally thinking of an actual delay - but then decided to change < 1293557223 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :renaming it would be better now :-) < 1293557266 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: the pointer points to one byte, yes? < 1293557277 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1293557307 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: is the tape right-infinite, left-infinite or both? < 1293557313 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., say ^ is the pointer < 1293557314 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it < 1293557316 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^0 0 0 0 0 0... < 1293557317 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1293557322 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ^0 < 1293557323 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1293557327 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1293557328 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right infinite < 1293557330 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ^0 < 1293557330 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1293557335 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...0 0 0 0 0 0 ^0 0 0 0 0 0 0... < 1293557339 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^0 ..... < 1293557388 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, aha, so this is where you are! < 1293557407 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Cleaned up the article. < 1293557436 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, thanks < 1293557448 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION HATES HATES HATES (both-infinite) wiki syntax < 1293557469 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: one byte per instruction, right? < 1293557478 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a file looks like "010101111000" where those are the ascii bytes for 0 and 1? < 1293557509 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no - the instructions are bitwise < 1293557523 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the stack (where the input and output goes) is bytewise < 1293557540 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 0101 would be "delay" "do" delay" "do" < 1293557559 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOD there we go < 1293557582 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll add it to the table now < 1293557600 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :serious language.... or joke language... < 1293557603 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't decide :-) < 1293557625 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, could I rename it to #Aardvark-tod so it goes first ???? < 1293557627 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1293557638 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ###Aaardvark-tod < 1293557682 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: no :P < 1293557687 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: it's not a joke language < 1293557689 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what table? < 1293557701 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list < 1293557741 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a table :-P < 1293557752 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: but yeah, no, joke languages are those which aren't even "real" languages < 1293557783 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I know - I was joking < 1293557789 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right :p < 1293557799 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people have got legitimately confused about that list before, mind < 1293557805 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence the ":-)" < 1293557831 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: how do you do loops or some equivalent? I can't see how to get a non-halting program < 1293557834 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, notice how many of my lines have :Ps in it < 1293557842 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: indeed. < 1293557848 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's definitely sub-TC. < 1293557853 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, infinite 0s < 1293557866 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its all initialized to 0 < 1293557867 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: ...and? < 1293557879 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I didn't make a way to halt.... < 1293557885 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh - I have an idea < 1293557889 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds a halt < 1293557897 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: no, you need a _non-halt_ < 1293557899 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you loop forever? < 1293557927 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1293557933 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what loop? < 1293557938 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: umm, ok. < 1293557944 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: I want to make a program that loops forever, doing nothing. < 1293557947 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: what program does it? < 1293557971 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just run it - its right infinite running with all 0s < 1293557998 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: I don't get it -- the tape isn't the program, is it? < 1293558004 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1293558017 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1293558021 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders < 1293558053 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, would a "go backwards N instructions be fine" ? < 1293558120 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe... starts to get ugly though < 1293558133 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: it would allow an infinite loop, but I very much doubt it would be TC < 1293558135 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about "go back to the start" < 1293558144 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(considering all your operations are locked behind time, and you can't "wait until 12pm") < 1293558151 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(only "wait an unspecified amount of time", and you don't even know what time it is now) < 1293558177 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what could I change to fix this? "wait until 00:00" ? < 1293558269 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: yes. and if you say nop waits exactly one second, say. < 1293558276 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: you'll still need a conditional jump, though < 1293558281 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. jump if and only if this certain condition is true < 1293558284 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, the current cell is not 0 < 1293558294 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: oh, and what range do the cells have? are they signed or unsigned bytes? < 1293558298 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about time based conditional jump? < 1293558306 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jump iff its 4:35 < 1293558318 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are 2s compliment integers < 1293558340 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it have to be based on the data? < 1293558375 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: time might work < 1293558382 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: 2s compliment -- ok so they're signed < 1293558389 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in brainfuck usually they are unsigned i.e. 0 to 255 inclusive) < 1293558486 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, jump iff it is is currently the apocalypse ? and change "delay" to "wait 1ms"? < 1293558513 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: I'd change delay to "wait an hour", to be honest. < 1293558517 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise programs will be gigantic. < 1293558522 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly :-) < 1293558522 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Except ... < 1293558526 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: You need to know what time it is. < 1293558531 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Jump one hour doesn't help; you need to get to 12pm, say. < 1293558546 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah - it depends on when you start it < 1293558553 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Then it's not Turing complete. :) < 1293558573 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if < 1293558583 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program automatically delays until 00:00 ? < 1293558597 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the first instruction ? < 1293558600 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Yes, that would work. < 1293558603 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Or better. < 1293558609 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Have the interpreter error out if it's not 00:00. < 1293558613 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1293558619 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, 00:00:00 to the second. < 1293558633 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1293558656 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1293558679 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Then if you add two more things to the do instruction -- say "skip the next instruction if the current cell is 0", and "jump to the program location specified in the current cell"... then it still wouldn't work, because you'd only have 256 places you can jump to. < 1293558701 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1293558719 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my goal is to avoid adding the brainfuck's [] operators but still have it be TC < 1293558731 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: yep. good luck with that :P < 1293558739 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it doable ? < 1293558793 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well, there are plenty of TC languages without loops. < 1293558809 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you definitely need some kind of conditional jump for your structure to work. < 1293558817 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-91-192.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293558828 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, can it only jump to the start and still be TC? < 1293558867 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jump to instruction 0 iff its the apocalypse < 1293558895 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: no. i don't think that will work :) < 1293558922 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-79.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293558938 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to set some kind of label ? < 1293559011 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: possibly < 1293559024 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does lambda calculus do it? < 1293559027 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other languages? < 1293559056 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Lambda calculus has first-class functions and no concept of memory or instructions. < 1293559060 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: So it's ... not easy to relate. < 1293559063 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293559069 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All lambda calculus is, is: < 1293559079 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do other functions do it? < 1293559082 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* languages do it < 1293559094 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LC := 'λ' name '.' LC | '(' LC LC ')' | (name) < 1293559095 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1293559101 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λx. x) y < 1293559102 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==>y < 1293559104 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any y < 1293559117 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λx y z. is the same as λx.λy.λz. < 1293559130 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293559133 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λw. w w) (λw. w w) ==> (λw. w w) (λw. w w) ==> ... < 1293559138 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(infinite loop) < 1293559142 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: usually other languages have loops :-P < 1293559145 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I havn't done any lambda calculus < 1293559147 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1293559150 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, really, just conditional jumps < 1293559161 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: lambda calculus is really really simple. I just described it there, basically < 1293559167 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't tell you the actual evaluation rules, but it's just function application < 1293559174 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except you don't evaluate function arguments until you really need to < 1293559203 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: " therefore haskell REEKS OF THE FOUL STENCH", you seem to have been confused about my opinion, which indicates failure on your part to employ elementary logic, which is surprising for me since you seem to display aptitude in logic. < 1293559218 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: actually it's called mocking :) < 1293559220 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I just need "if current cell is zero delay until next 00:00:00" < 1293559238 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: nah, that won't work -- then the rest of the program means two different things, and I doubt you could make them both do the right thing :) < 1293559243 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Which in turn just made you look ``like an idiot'' ;) < 1293559269 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: well, no, you look like the idiot w/ that post, it'd be hard to top. < 1293559339 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great, now i'm lost in this damn pit < 1293559355 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite concerned how I look. I do think people got their panties into a bundle because I seemed to insult them. A lot of people seem to agree though, but (unfortunately?) those who do don't have the loudest mouths. < 1293559368 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293559379 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, how about something like iff apocalypse "move the instruction pointer backward in sync with the stack pointer until a 0 is seen on the stack" < 1293559415 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: wait, since when is there a stack :) < 1293559428 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, the "data pointer" or where the input/output occurs < 1293559430 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION calls that a stack < 1293559434 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though its not\ < 1293559440 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause its not LIFO < 1293559452 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: hehe... I don't think you can make any of this work without a way to keep the current time predictable ... and having some kind of conditional jump :) < 1293559453 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tape -- better turn < 1293559470 0 :Wamanuz5!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1293559470 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, current time is predictable now: delay == 1ms < 1293559485 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well, right < 1293559491 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're proposing making jumps wait time based on value < 1293559495 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is _not_ predictable :) < 1293559541 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone got a secret stash of tnt i can borrow? < 1293559543 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1293559593 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: why not what? < 1293559602 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is the current time not predictable now? < 1293559603 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: because what "do" does after a conditional wait is completely unpredictable < 1293559609 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could do one of two things, and you can't know which at the time < 1293559624 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to write your whole program so it does the right thing based on the condition no matter which of the two times it is ... and it's just not gonna work < 1293559696 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, if I forced [ and ] to occur at specific times would that be a problem? < 1293559704 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie at the hour and at the half hour? < 1293559728 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: probably not, since you can always wait < 1293559733 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: oh, you need to specify how long instructions take < 1293559735 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: I suggest 1 second < 1293559747 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and if the interp takes more than one second to execute an instruction, it has to quit because the time's been messed up) < 1293559763 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1293559779 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added a note about timezones btw < 1293559851 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instructions take 1s - fine. delays are 1s as well < 1293559903 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I can't see how I could add labels without changing from a bitwise instr. set to something else < 1293559997 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: you don't really need labels < 1293560087 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: ok, how about this < 1293560093 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: add two things to the do instruction < 1293560094 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: do you know how popular your blog is? did it just get a huge boost from that post? < 1293560097 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: < 1293560102 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- skip next instruction if current cell is 0 < 1293560109 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- jump forwards/backwards according to current cell value < 1293560113 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. jump 0 is an infinite loop < 1293560115 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jump -1 goes back one < 1293560119 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jump 1 goes forwards one < 1293560120 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(instruction) < 1293560126 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_then your limited to 256 values < 1293560132 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: yes, but it doesn't matter because it's relative < 1293560140 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: then you could basically do < 1293560142 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I said before :- } < 1293560151 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1293560153 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: make it < 1293560157 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- skip next do instruction if current cell is 0 < 1293560159 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could do < 1293560180 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait until skip time; do; wait until increment time; do; wait until skip time; do; wait until increment time; do; wait until skip time; do; wait until jump time; do < 1293560191 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd jump forwards 2 after the last do if the current cell isn't 0 < 1293560262 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1293560346 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: but you'll need to subdivide time further :P < 1293560361 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1293560371 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I'm keeping time at "clock cycle < 1293560380 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and leaving it machine dependant < 1293560405 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293560410 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: (1) because you need two new instructions < 1293560414 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: (2) then it's not even a language < 1293560421 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the semantics are /radically/ different depending on the implementation. < 1293560431 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: if you did it "program counter modulo N" < 1293560431 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm - fine < 1293560432 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'd work < 1293560437 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it would not be time of day based :) < 1293560446 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll make it 1 second < 1293560450 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have my two times < 1293560458 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do? < 1293560467 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: wait wait wait. < 1293560472 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: how on /earth/ do you determine sunset and sunrise. < 1293560477 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, adding that now < 1293560481 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't make those real times, it can't possibly work :P < 1293560492 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I had an idea - I just didn't write it < 1293560502 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw you probably want to say UTC rather than GMT on there < 1293560505 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though they're the same < 1293560576 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293560582 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using RFC 2119 terms - that's ok - right? < 1293560644 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure :P < 1293560679 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed it to UTC, since GMT isn't actually formally defined anywhere < 1293560688 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's mean solar time at Greenwich Observatory technically :P) < 1293560719 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I already made that change < 1293560724 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :D < 1293560732 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: wrong < 1293560736 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checked the history < 1293560761 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I didn't hit "edit" edit < 1293560762 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* yet < 1293560768 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was making other changes too < 1293560786 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah :D < 1293560891 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, refresh < 1293560933 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001f5b00390f-CM001e6b2335dc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293560940 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: ok, so time is now nondeterministic because of relying on external data, and the language is sub-TC < 1293560954 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the undefinedness of the two extra times make it not only sub-TC, but an undefined language too :-) < 1293561011 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, what do you mean? it will occur in 2012 :) < 1293561044 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: yep, but you can't wait backwards, and you can't figure out how far away you are from 2012 :-P < 1293561051 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't ever wait until the apocalypse consistently < 1293561068 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, also https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Interesting_number_paradox < 1293561084 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know :) < 1293561100 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welp, your language definitely isn't TC, that's all I can say >:) < 1293561117 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1293561122 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, fine :-} < 1293561134 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think its better if I made it TC? < 1293561157 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well. I can't imagine anyone actually running a program in it, so the distinction is rather academic :-P < 1293561198 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I just need to write a 99 bottles of beer in it now :-} < 1293561279 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want it theoretically possible to write a program in it < 1293561285 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so perhaps I should make it RC < 1293561286 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* TC < 1293561326 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well 99 bottles of beer doesn't even require TCness < 1293561345 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact C is arguably sub-TC (I think C + POSIX is TC and C + libc is probably TC, but plain C itself is sub-TC). < 1293561367 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, well yeah: if there was some operation that resulted in 99 bottles of beer.... < 1293561375 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is plain C non TC < 1293561379 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: nope, there are plenty of languages with loops that aren't TC < 1293561387 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "loop from 0 to N" for fixed N < 1293561391 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: plain C is non-TC because of sizeof < 1293561393 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider, < 1293561398 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all pointers must be castable to (void *) < 1293561403 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(void *) must be an integer < 1293561406 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore pointers must have finite size < 1293561410 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore the addressable memory is finite < 1293561411 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1293561430 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, sizeof is measured in chars < 1293561431 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1293561438 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(void *) = 1 where char is a big-num could work < 1293561441 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for CHAR_BIT :) < 1293561451 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, so if I removed the google source and changed those two times it wouldbe TC ? < 1293561461 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since CHAR_BIT is in the libc you could argue it works ... < 1293561472 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: I don't know, it's really hard to demonstrate TCness... but I think it would be quite likely, yes :) < 1293561483 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really hard = write a BF interpreter in it is the easiest way < 1293561494 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why ? < 1293561541 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: why what? < 1293561572 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, "based on a pre-generated table supplied to the interpreter?" < 1293561575 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the TZ < 1293561589 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "why is it so hard to demonstrate TCness?" < 1293561610 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: because you essentially have to demonstrate an isomorphism to another TC language < 1293561618 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :showing a table with BF instruction --> equivalent TOD code on the right would be sufficient < 1293561622 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, that that gravel I threw you < 1293561703 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, refresh < 1293561758 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, would "based on a pregenerated table" be sufficient for sunrise and senset < 1293561768 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: yeah, as long as you specify the table in the article < 1293561782 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah - ok < 1293561822 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I can't have it "user supplied" < 1293561823 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: I'd just set it at, e.g., 7pm < 1293561832 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: no, you can't, because then the TCness of the lang would depend on the table :) < 1293561834 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also the behaviour of programs < 1293561850 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want it to vary in the summer and winter < 1293561890 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and location < 1293561932 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: then the language is sub-TC < 1293561940 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a program that works in summer won't work in winter < 1293561958 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: well, ok, if you specified the timezone and season to execute it'd be TC < 1293561961 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still :p < 1293561964 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1293561970 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd really be tz*season languages < 1293561976 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all of them would be TC < 1293561982 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but programs won't only work in one of them < 1293561983 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1293561999 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll set it to 7am/7pm < 1293562057 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, refresh < 1293562096 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: ok. I think it is TC then. < 1293562114 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: but i can't be sure :) < 1293562122 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293562139 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, now.. to write hello world :-} < 1293562158 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: good luck with that. < 1293562173 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: you'll need a lot of nop*3600 :P < 1293562203 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, I should add a note that "programmers without large HDDs should probably write in a compressed format < 1293562296 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: Mind you, 3600 nops is only 450 bytes. < 1293562406 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1293562533 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, tyvm < 1293562547 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np :P < 1293562702 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-79.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293562938 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-57-8.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293562976 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293563578 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-57-8.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293563715 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1293564221 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You store gravel right? Can we borrow some? (To give back.) We're emptying the Cube. < 1293564460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293564694 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would like to see IPv6 exhaustion counter. The "addresses left" counter would go down at an impressive rate, but the number would have 37 digits... < 1293564816 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: No, I've been throwing all my gravel into lava. < 1293564828 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Bah! < 1293564848 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: For your inconsiderateness, you must help the mind-numbing work of excavation and draining. (Hey, we already have a glass wireframe. :p) < 1293564896 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even 10^20 addresses allocated per second is not enough to exhaust IPv6 address space before the Sun fries Earth... < 1293565127 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that might be low rate. Let's throw a factor of 1000 more. That's still over 10 million years... < 1293565290 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I DON'T SEE YOU HELPING < 1293565437 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This month (according to latest data I have) 28 126 260 029 466 696 220 239 013 609 472 IPv6 addresses have been allocated/delegated. < 1293565614 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that's good bit more than 10^20 (or even 10^23) per second... Like 120 * 10^23 per second... At current rate, current unicast IPv6 space would be exhausted in about 100 000 years... < 1293565813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that pesky Y100K problem < 1293565847 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.5 trillion IPv6 network prefixes allocated/delegated this motnth... < 1293565875 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, heh < 1293565895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh i humanity hasn't developed a way of efficiently fixing problems long before then, it's doomed anyway < 1293565898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*if < 1293565910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is something fishy about my f key < 1293565969 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that isn't even one millionth of current unicast space... < 1293566027 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Can we borrow sand then? :p < 1293566060 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and seems like for universal IPv6, one would need few quadrillion subnetwork prefixes... < 1293566210 0 :Wamanuz3!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293566360 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1293566904 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_soup < 1293566938 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will check when MC isn't running < 1293569504 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: We hereby ENSLAVE you. < 1293570574 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, working on a python implementation of TOD < 1293570586 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: cool < 1293571005 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I went to -200 10000 by mistake >_< < 1293571028 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, well what happened < 1293571040 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, also write code to save bookmarks < 1293571042 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, or such < 1293571053 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that story :-) < 1293571095 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, also wrt link above: "The story is most commonly known as nail soup in Scandinavian and Northern European countries." <-- oh that < 1293571356 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293571371 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Open source stone soup: exactly like stone soup, except the travellers had to supply all the ingredients instead, and then someone dropped some mud in it < 1293571410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, someone saying something stupid about open source? < 1293571418 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Nope, that was me saying that. < 1293571581 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s pretty stupid though. < 1293571586 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's why it was a joke. < 1293571592 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well, 90% a joke. < 1293571603 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So's your mom, but you don't see her complaining. < 1293571611 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the last time I saw an open source project that got started with a single stone (a README, say) :-P < 1293571627 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Subtlety is my ex's name." "At least, I think she's my ex now. She wasn't very clear about it." < 1293571636 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293571640 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion < 1293571642 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover! Hello! < 1293571648 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: CUBE CONSTRUCTION IS START < 1293571648 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, word seen on wikipedia: "sphericity" < 1293571650 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I like it) < 1293571652 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: xD < 1293571654 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sphericalosity < 1293571666 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, consistent internet connection, how I have missed you! < 1293571671 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, the sentence was "Then the part is honed to improve a form characteristic such as roundness, flatness, cylindricity, or sphericity." < 1293571676 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Set your visor-goggles (fog) to Far, and //goto -200 1000. < 1293571685 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does want to play Minecraft :/ < 1293571686 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will do! < 1293571690 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BEHOLD THE WIREFRAME. GAZE AT THE PARTIALLY-EMPTIED SEA. GAWP AT THE GIGANTIC UNDERGROUND EXCAVATION CAVERNS. < 1293571691 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, explore the worlds < 1293571692 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BTW: You really want far. < 1293571695 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I awesomised my SSP world. < 1293571696 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, so buy it? < 1293571700 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Otherwise you can't see the wireframe. < 1293571713 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: P.S. I've sort of used some of HHI's duplicated TNT to help excavate... please don't hurt me < 1293571738 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, you're demoted to junior undersecretary of juniority! < 1293571747 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's great, I can steal more under the radar! < 1293571757 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ALSO ALSO: /kit g gets you a shitload of glass. And if you don't have enough inventory it goes into your armour slots. And YOU ACTUALLY GET A GLASS ORB ON YOUR HEAD. < 1293571762 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is HILARIOUS. < 1293571770 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AWESOME < 1293571795 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BTW: Reconnect after //goto. < 1293571798 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You become invisible if you don't. < 1293571807 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1293571822 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Because you do. < 1293571917 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/heart_stopping_medics_limit_cpr_7Ahv46Qfw6NXpYklWpMhiO < 1293572174 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah... Fail: Official Food pyramid: 60% carbohydrate, 25% fat, 15% protein. Cattle rancher animal feed formula for fattening animals: 61% carbohydrate, 25% fat, 14% protein. < 1293572203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah < 1293572258 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, 60% carbs, 25% fat and 15% of protein diet can be reasonable if one picks carb and fat sources well (definitely not the way food pyramid recomends). < 1293572289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, pretty lulzy < 1293572296 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a difference though < 1293572313 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that the ranchers are not in the business of mining fat deposits < 1293572318 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they want fatty meat < 1293572321 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the mean must still be ther < 1293572325 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*meat < 1293572326 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there < 1293572427 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, there was some primitive (i.e. healthy) population with diet approximately 70% carbs, 20% fat (15% saturated!) and 10% protein... < 1293572637 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: so basically the food pyramid is perfect for cannibals? < 1293572670 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If one wanted to look who food pyramid is good for, it is pharma companies... < 1293572771 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is goddamn good for the goddamn pharma companies :( < 1293572787 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This leads to a problem. When there are an infinite number of instances of every possible observation, it becomes impossible to determine the probabilities of any of these events occurring. And when that happens, the laws of physics simply don't apply. They just break down. "This is known as the "measure problem" of eternal inflation," say Bousso and buddies" < 1293572804 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that it's the journalist screwing that up, because what I just read makes no sense < 1293572808 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25807/ < 1293572932 0 :zeotrope!~a@unaffiliated/zeotrope JOIN :#esoteric < 1293573574 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort it randomly and compute the limits as number of observations increases? < 1293573601 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, I think they're serious < 1293573636 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, is there some sort of math going on that makes more sense than what was in that article? < 1293573644 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I'm caught up on < 1293573670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are people just being dumbfarks? I don't want to just make that assumption < 1293573672 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: did it occur to you to read the paper? < 1293573725 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No :/ < 1293573730 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to look at it < 1293573805 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first two paragraphs say pretty much the same thing < 1293573813 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees something that may be useful in the next < 1293573898 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just make the calculations for a given amount of space in a given amount of time? < 1293573929 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, is that what they're saying? < 1293573978 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Some < 1293573978 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :observers will have their lives interrupted by the cuto" < 1293573983 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that interesting? < 1293574073 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This cutoff they are talking about. I thought it was a mathematical tool so they don't have to look at everything. Why are they talking about it as though it has a physical reality < 1293574075 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1293574144 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither < 1293574158 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the argument "math doesn't work so it won't happen" is one worth considering < 1293574384 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, if you carry any sand: use it now < 1293574401 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders switching back to Opera < 1293574432 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :play more netcraft imo < 1293574436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has vertex shaders < 1293574626 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1293574921 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRAZY PHYSICS IDEA #2: Hawking generator. < 1293574951 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make black hole. Stabilise mass loss due to Hawking radiation by pouring junk into it. ??? Profit! < 1293575000 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any fatal flaws I've missed? < 1293575045 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much energy does it take to put junk into it? < 1293575065 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, "negative". < 1293575115 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could get even more energy from the gravitational potential were it not for the fact that once you have a method for total mass-to-energy conversion, which I think this is, your energy needs are basically solved. < 1293575116 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: does netcraft actually have a release at all < 1293575126 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: no < 1293575138 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just trolling < 1293575140 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: a public source repository? :p < 1293575144 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link? < 1293575147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's semipublic < 1293575178 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Umm... isn't Hawking radiation basically matter? < 1293575183 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293575212 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what types of particles are "formed"? < 1293575218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly photons < 1293575225 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which usually aren't considered matter < 1293575232 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I thought it was matter and antimatter in equal proportion? < 1293575241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So photons if you wait a while. < 1293575249 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :photons are their own antiparticles < 1293575265 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo, photons meeting photons = explosion < 1293575269 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo, shining two lasers at the earth = BOOM < 1293575271 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everywhere in the quantum foam of spacetime, particle-antiparticle pairs spontaneously appear then anhillate eache other. < 1293575296 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: no silly it's all made out of tiny vibrating strings! < 1293575299 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When this happens right at the edge of a black hole, it's possible that one of the partcles gets sucked in, so that the other has nothing to anhillate against < 1293575308 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, yes, that's my understanding. < 1293575323 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, your idea is crazy but Just Might Work < 1293575332 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two problems thought < 1293575340 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I know, mass. < 1293575341 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1 is capturing the radiation < 1293575347 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#2 is feeding the mass at the right rate < 1293575383 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I thought this was a consequence of string theory < 1293575384 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly wants portable black holes for use in spaceships < 1293575392 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, naaaa. < 1293575401 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I don't know how this quantum foam arises though < 1293575402 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i was joking :) < 1293575406 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't even move black holes without massive gravitational forces. < 1293575417 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But configurations of holes in orbit, now... < 1293575471 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much Hawking radiation do black holes emit? Enough to be usable? < 1293575489 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did I never see git's description before? < 1293575499 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I think it has been experimentally detected in a lab recently < 1293575507 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, the formula is on the WP article. < 1293575531 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, for a black hole with mass M: < 1293575546 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes, some guy in the ashes tried to catch the ball but it just slapped his thumb < 1293575556 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"catch"? < 1293575575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason, I thought in cricket, the ball was usually on the ground < 1293575578 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P = \frac{\hbar c^6}{15360\pi G^2 M^2} < 1293575597 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hbar? < 1293575608 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h/2\pi IIRC < 1293575610 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well someone throws it, then the batsman hits it, after going through the air it rolls for a while < 1293575632 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, aaaaaaaorganisedsportgetitaway < 1293575633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if someone gets killed by the ball? It happens in baseball :( < 1293575654 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: wow. I didn't know thatt < 1293575662 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why did I never see git's description before? < 1293575663 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1293575667 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday the batsman got hit in the knee but he did keep playng < 1293575671 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, let's calculate the mass necessary for you to get a 1 on the Kardashev scale! < 1293575679 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.northjersey.com/sports/hs_sports/120510_Garfield_deals_with_grief_as_probe_continues_in_teen_baseball_players_death.html < 1293575683 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: are the ashes worth watching < 1293575686 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: poor cat < 1293575690 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all he wants is some lasanga < 1293575698 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lasagna < 1293575699 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wt < 1293575700 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f < 1293575704 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a word, spellchecker. < 1293575731 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the Mathematica thing to rearrange an equation so a given variable is dependent? < 1293575736 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: well that's what I am trying to find out < 1293575749 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you haven't figured it out yet? :D < 1293575752 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what? < 1293575765 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, ! < 1293575772 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sod it, the equation is trivial to rearrange. < 1293575775 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what < 1293575799 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, you pick that up, not me < 1293575908 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It annoys me that h is an angular momentum, yet they have no immediately obvious relation. < 1293575975 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: random names in mathematics? shocking < 1293575994 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, no, it's the dimensions. < 1293576020 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293576032 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h : m^2*kg*s^-2 < 1293576048 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Angular momentum is the same. < 1293576070 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: torques are energy! < 1293576087 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, it's so crazy! < 1293576102 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lesson: just because the units work out doesn't mean you're right < 1293576220 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, but it's so inelegant! < 1293576410 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I definitely don't "get" it.. yet(?) < 1293576410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYWAY, who wants to know the mass of the Hawking generator needed to produce a watt of power! < 1293576438 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think you need to, like, blend fifty rule books into a smoothie and drink it every day for five weeks < 1293576481 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It turns out to be 5*10^-17kg! < 1293576488 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1293576493 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may be a problem... < 1293576504 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1293576543 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the slightest disturbance in the mass you're feeding in and you end up with no black hole and a gamma ray explosion. < 1293576572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1293576578 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HMM. < 1293576602 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the good news is that Sgeo's dream of having one on his spaceship is fulfillable! < 1293576602 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get how this blog post has led to so much discussion < 1293576618 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess haskell folks juts hate the idea of being a cargo cult so much < 1293576634 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofl < 1293576672 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How it scales with power? What would be the mass for 1kW? < 1293576685 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, the larger the power the smaller the hole. < 1293576748 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I've messed this up. < 1293576786 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no actually that's right < 1293576795 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hawking radiation is quicker in smaller black holes < 1293576824 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand that < 1293576827 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that work? < 1293576837 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yeah, and my formula doesn't get that. < 1293576865 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293576867 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, gradient of space around hole something something something physics. < 1293576875 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh curvature I see < 1293576909 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oho, that's why the formula is wrong! < 1293576949 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, NOW it works. < 1293576974 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like how surface gravity of a black hole is really weak < 1293576984 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so now I have 2e16 for the mass of a 1-Watt Hawking generator. < 1293577000 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUCH more practical. < 1293577004 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very. < 1293577006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kg? < 1293577010 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes. < 1293577025 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: how much for 1 megawatt >:) < 1293577027 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it scale linearly < 1293577042 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, it scales 1/square rootly. < 1293577061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 2e13? < 1293577063 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a huge amount of power is actually far less mass. < 1293577073 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yep! < 1293577089 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course you would need to put more mass in to keep it going < 1293577099 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, this is where the real practical problems come in. < 1293577124 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to compensate the mass loss, which doesn't take much mass, but is tricky for very small holes. < 1293577159 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: so how much energy for 1 kg < 1293577160 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type 1 on the Kardashev scale is 1e16, so... < 1293577171 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1kg of mass suppiles about 90PJ... < 1293577176 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, it's quite simple, it's just e=mc^2. < 1293577177 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293577180 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh ofc < 1293577182 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And P=E/t < 1293577188 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: but you see, you're forgetting < 1293577190 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'M LAZY < 1293577216 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10^8 would get you to Type 1 on the Kardashev scale. < 1293577237 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is where the real problems come in. < 1293577241 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except you wouldn't actually be able to get that to work < 1293577244 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is important to note that as Sagan's Kardashev rating is base-10 logarithmic, a value of 0.72 means we are using approximately 0.16% of the total available planetary energy budget." < 1293577256 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1e16 would be ridiculously hard to control. < 1293577284 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And one would need to inject about 110 grams of matter per second to keep it stable... < 1293577299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And getting mass into the hole at all would be nigh-impossible. < 1293577322 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, not too hard if you ignore the energy output < 1293577338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, you could get that with a shovel. < 1293577345 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenTyrian FTW < 1293577372 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I am now imagining a guy shovelling coal into a hole. < 1293577380 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a sleek, shiny, lens-fare spaceship. < 1293577381 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1293577392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coal's far too valuable < 1293577394 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was my intention. < 1293577402 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about Christians instead? < 1293577410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although what kind of spaceship is Type 1? < 1293577421 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: lmao < 1293577432 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i'll have to remember that for asiekierka < 1293577462 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, you can use absolutely anything. < 1293577488 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the good news is that with that level of energe, you could afford the particle accelerator required to make it work < 1293577502 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hmm. < 1293577506 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Could you even use EXCESS ENERGY < 1293577520 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus giving a perpetual motion machine if you don't use it all! SCIENCE < 1293577544 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: no, you would need matter as fuel < 1293577552 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: SHUT UP < 1293577553 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCIENCE < 1293577572 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so you have 1e16W of radiation coming out, so how do you get stuff to it without it being vapourised? < 1293577676 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, our current energy consumption is 16TW. < 1293577719 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which requires a 1e11 hole. < 1293577720 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: neutron stream? < 1293577740 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Speaking of mathematics, me and Vorpal just simultaneously thought that 10x10x10 = 1000. < 1293577742 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1293577743 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Speaking of mathematics, me and Vorpal just simultaneously thought that 10x10x10 = 100. < 1293577750 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, well, I was kind of hoping you could just stick some rock in a mass driver. < 1293577767 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : OK, so you have 1e16W of radiation coming out, so how do you get stuff to it without it being vapourised? < 1293577772 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hope that enough of it got in to keep the generator stable. < 1293577772 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: just make a tube out of indestructium < 1293577773 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well, neutrons shouldn't interact with the outgoing radiation at al < 1293577774 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :straight into the hole < 1293577776 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and route it outside < 1293577781 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, momentum? < 1293577800 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: hmm? < 1293577801 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not very significant if the neutrons are moving at all quickly. < 1293577812 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :momenum of what? < 1293577821 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The photons? Doesn't matter < 1293577829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, net momentum 0 < 1293577851 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean them colliding with the neutrons? < 1293577856 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1293577868 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's M_E again? < 1293577893 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6e24kg. < 1293577936 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1293577962 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so you could fix our entire energy problem with less than a hundred trillionth of the Earth's mass. < 1293578003 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: but won't the photons not collide? < 1293578031 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I don't know, I assumed you were Mr Knows Physics. < 1293578036 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh, no < 1293578049 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who is Mr Knows Physics here, then? < 1293578054 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait, that won't work < 1293578057 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neutrans have quarks < 1293578075 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, I think they wouldn't work because of that < 1293578090 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was wondering, how much time and how many jet engines working at full power would take to change earth's orbit < 1293578125 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many depends on how far and how much time, how far depends on how many and how much time, etc < 1293578150 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, ask Sam Hughes, he's an expert on this kind of thing. < 1293578190 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There really ought to be a name for kg/s. < 1293578272 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Kuggs. < 1293578385 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to calculate that < 1293578408 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was too riddiculous < 1293578480 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1293578481 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1293578496 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about changing the rotation direction < 1293578809 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, trivial. < 1293578829 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I can't be bothered to work it out, but I know that I could. < 1293578951 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Work out the change in angular momentum. < 1293578995 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1293578998 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i did that < 1293579038 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turned out that one should basically fill the entire Earth's surface with jet engines < 1293579041 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1293579092 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://vimgolf.com/ < 1293579095 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1293579240 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1293579266 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice! < 1293579391 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.xamuel.com/images/madfrege.JPG < 1293579463 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1293579466 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://vimgolf.com/challenges/4d1a71c0b8cb34093200010b < 1293579476 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure I can totally beat 189 < 1293579500 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although does this run vimrcs? if so you could easily cheat) < 1293579785 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if there are MMORPGs whose servers are written in Erlang < 1293579887 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how many baked beans he can stick up his nose < 1293580006 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1293580012 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vim is being weird < 1293580012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm, baked beans < 1293580089 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't I update marks within an @ command < 1293580145 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1293580149 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't do 'a in a @ < 1293580301 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i knew two guys who wrote basic MMOG in Erlang < 1293580322 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they had a presentation on a gamedev conference in Siedlce < 1293580354 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I last looked at Erlang, what did I dislike about it? < 1293580398 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/L3ILW.png troll < 1293580410 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Marcin Gazda, Michał Ślaski - Rozproszony serwer œwiata wirtualnego jako narzędzie do analizy potrzeb serwerów MMOG." < 1293580455 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :distributed server of virtual world as a tool for analysing demands of MMOG servers < 1293580469 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was in 2005 < 1293580493 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these two guys were Erlang freaks < 1293580594 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do most MMOs do? < 1293580693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think the cheating part is that a and b will also be polynomials, not numbers < 1293580792 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, sleep