00:00:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:01:28 Phantom_Hoover_: GET ON MC 00:02:19 elliott, if you haven't blown up Mt. Vorpal by "accident" I will be sorely disappointed. 00:02:39 " (Note: You cannot farm cheap obsidian here, as the water evaporates!) " 00:06:34 Phantom_Hoover_: I have. 00:08:35 Phantom_Hoover_: I am ready to blow things up. 00:08:43 Phantom_Hoover_: Can we make a 10x10x10 cube of TNT? 00:08:54 NO. 00:08:59 Phantom_Hoover_: 3x3x3? 00:09:14 2x2x2 is already an insanely huge explosion. 00:09:21 Phantom_Hoover_: 3x2x2? 00:09:44 2x2x2. Full stop. 00:15:31 hmhm 00:24:03 elliott: hey 00:24:55 augur: hi 00:27:58 tell me of your favorite type system 00:29:59 hmm 00:30:03 augur: um 00:30:06 augur: depends! 00:30:09 x3 00:30:11 this cave is too big to light 00:30:11 augur: system I\Xi is pretty nice 00:30:14 nooga: no it isn't 00:30:16 nooga: get more torches 00:30:18 tell me about it 00:30:23 but there are monsters 00:30:31 elliott, people do mine obsidian: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=78446 00:33:21 is it possible to make a lava column? 00:41:06 nooga, yes. 00:42:27 elliott, wasn't your scree x9nn? 00:42:43 Vorpal: what. 00:42:52 elliott, screen res 00:42:55 elliott, on your macbook air 00:42:56 tell me 00:43:01 Vorpal: 1440x900 00:43:07 elliott, that small? 00:43:25 elliott, "ha ha my computer is better than yours" 00:43:29 to quote you 00:43:43 nope mine is better 00:43:44 sry 00:44:04 elliott, 1680x1050 > 1440x900 00:44:12 elliott, thus in that aspect mine is better 00:44:20 mine is better in every way 00:44:29 Well fuck. 00:44:32 elliott, except that 00:44:38 pikhq: ? 00:44:39 elliott, also fewer usb ports 00:44:47 Vorpal: the usb ports are better though 00:44:47 elliott, mine has... 8 usb ports 00:44:51 Some Senators are stating that they will allow the US to default on its debts. 00:44:52 also the fewer pixels are more zen 00:44:53 q.e.d 00:44:59 pikhq: luzl 00:45:04 elliott, how are your usb ports better? usb 3.0? 00:45:35 We do not know what will happen if that happens, except that it will be *fucking terrible*. 00:45:43 Vorpal: they're more usb 00:45:48 Vorpal: but yes this has usb 3 00:45:54 elliott, also you don't have hardware midi! 00:46:02 elliott, or built in gbit ethernet 00:46:10 Vorpal: nope, it's because steve jobs wrote the software midi himself and it sounds like angels peeing on your face 00:46:19 the ethernet is 20gb duh that's why it has to be housed in a separate container 00:46:22 elliott, or 1 TB non-volatile storage space 00:46:23 Oh, and the dollar would probably instantly go into hyperinflation. 00:46:25 because otherwise it would be breaking speed regulations 00:46:31 Vorpal: I have more, I have petabytes 00:46:35 Vorpal: they call it "the internet" 00:46:38 elliott, har har 00:46:43 it even has a wireless connection to it 00:46:45 BUILT IN 00:46:50 ] 00:46:56 elliott, 11n? 00:47:01 Vorpal: yes actually. 00:47:02 elliott, so does my thinkpad 00:47:05 elliott, it has 11n 00:47:07 Vorpal: Does it have USB 3.0? 00:47:19 elliott, no but it has more usb ports than you 00:47:24 But they're worse. 00:47:30 elliott, anyway aren't usb 3.0 ports taller? 00:47:32 than usb 2 00:47:36 Vorpal: Er. No. 00:47:40 elliott, err yes 00:47:46 elliott, or is that usb 4? 00:47:48 Allow me to repeat: Err, no. 00:47:58 Oh, it's actually USB 2.0. 00:48:06 Vorpal: My USB ports are better because they're more USB porty than your USB ports. 00:48:12 Quod erat demonstrandum, motherfucker. 00:48:19 DO YOU CONCEDE 00:48:56 elliott, how are they more usb porty? 00:49:06 Vorpal: Because they're more USB. 00:49:08 elliott, and no I do not concede 00:49:12 elliott, because I call that a lie 00:49:22 Vorpal: You are wrong and your entire family is made out of meat. 00:49:39 elliott, so is your 00:49:57 Vorpal: No, I'm a computer. 00:49:58 Also, *yours. 00:50:12 Also: I FUCKING WISH MINECRAFTFORUM WOULD REMOVE THAT IRRITATING NOTCH SMILEY. 00:50:15 ALL THE IDIOTS USE IT 00:50:27 elliott, solution: adblock it 00:50:36 Too much work. 00:50:41 elliott, two clicks? 00:50:43 Idiots are the problem. :p 00:50:48 Vorpal: (1) Install AdBlock 00:50:59 elliott, 1) already done... over two years ago 00:51:05 Vorpal: For you, not me. 00:51:16 elliott, how can you live with the ads? 00:51:29 Vorpal: I don't browse sites that show me irritating ads. 00:51:33 Vorpal: Bonus: I don't browse shitty sites. 00:51:38 Or at least I browse less of them. 00:51:44 elliott, same but google ads = irritating to me 00:51:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:51:53 Vorpal: Then you're just whiny. 00:52:05 elliott, they were okay when they only allowed text 00:52:11 I find AdBlock a need. 00:52:17 elliott, but now I'm pretty sure I seen graphics in one 00:52:20 Essentially all ads are fucking annoying. 00:52:24 pikhq, indeed 00:52:31 Google's text ads being the only exception. 00:52:44 pikhq, they have non-text ads nowdays iirc? 00:52:51 Let's put it this way: reddit has exactly two ad spots: the one at the top, which is commercially-posted links, almost all of which have comments and are often interesting; and the square ad on the right sidebar, which is _never_ irritating, never animated, and always subdued, and the admins keep it that way. 00:52:51 it sadens me 00:52:58 Irritating ads get reported and removed extremely swiftly. 00:53:06 Static images aren't too bad; a minor irritant. 00:53:11 Plus, often subreddits etc. are advertised in the right bar and it can be interesting. 00:53:16 I see _no point_ in blocking those whatsoever. 00:53:20 pikhq, oh yes I have gif animations set to "don't repeat" 00:53:29 Animated images vary from "somewhat irritating" to "OH HOLY FUCK I MUST KILL SOMEONE". 00:53:36 Plus there's a good chance of them showing you a kitten instead of ads. 00:53:37 Seriously. 00:53:46 And Flash ads make me want to line up all advertisers before a firing squad. 00:53:53 They put random pictures there not linked to anything on like 1/5th of all page loads. 00:53:56 pikhq, I don't have flash of course 00:53:59 After that noise I just installed AdBlock and called it a day. 00:54:10 pikhq, quite! 00:54:12 Vorpal lives in a world where not having Flash is "of course". 00:54:20 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:54:21 Anyway, any website with Flash ads isn't worth the time of day. 00:54:25 elliott, hey *you* don't have flash you said 00:54:28 Oh, and ones that appear *over* the page also make me want to wipe out humanity. 00:54:28 So I just don't browse such websites for more than 10 seconds at a time. 00:54:36 pikhq, they made that? 00:54:37 Vorpal: Sure, but it's hardly "of course". 00:54:43 Vorpal: They've "made that" since the 90s ... 00:54:47 Livejournal has them now. 00:54:47 elliott, no, accept it. 00:54:48 Vorpal: Yes. 00:54:51 _Those_ I would block. 00:54:53 Vorpal: What? 00:55:04 elliott, it /is/ of course. Welcome to the club. Accept your fate. 00:55:17 Also, video ads before a video are pretty annoying. 00:55:27 Especially when it's the same fucking ad for every video on a site. 00:55:31 pikhq, don't tell me youtube have them or something? 00:55:37 Vorpal: Nope, the next time I want to play a Flash game or watch a weebl's stuff cartoon I'll happily install it. 00:55:39 Vorpal: Youtube does. 00:55:43 holy shit 00:55:51 pikhq, it has ads before the video? 00:55:55 this cave is never ending system of dark pits and halls 00:55:56 pikhq, long live youtube-dk 00:55:57 Sometimes. 00:55:58 dl* 00:55:58 then 00:56:07 pikhq, youtube-dl for the win! 00:56:17 (mostly corporate-posted videos.) 00:56:20 nooga, congrats on finding a large cavern system 00:56:30 "Because making a worse product is a good idea." 00:56:38 nooga, it happens a few times in every game. Rarely does it naturally go down to lava lake level 00:56:43 but those are awesome 00:56:52 I had one game with two such. Near each other. 00:57:38 Someone said they would make up a new kind of poker game and make manga of it, and then I will be the non-Japanese people to play this game. 00:58:09 err! night! 00:58:15 Vorpal: youtube-dl is bullshit, just use a youtube->html5 thing. 00:58:19 359345743957395 of them exist 00:58:55 elliott, why is it bull shit. It rocks if your connection can't handle highest definition available 00:59:18 elliott, also I thought youtube had html5 naively nowdays? 00:59:28 Vorpal: Natively only on videos without ads and it's slow as fuck. 00:59:35 ah 00:59:48 Also, having to wait ages to watch a stupid YouTube video defeats the entire point. 01:00:50 I don't use YouTube. It is full of wrong thing........ 01:01:00 elliott: youtube-dl is actually a god-send for some videos. 01:01:07 elliott, you can watch while it downloads. Something like youtube-dl foo & sleep 10 && mplayer foo.flv works file 01:01:12 fine* 01:01:18 Vorpal: I just use YouTube5 and it works perfectly. 01:01:31 elliott, I'm happy for you. But don't call youtube-dl shit 01:01:37 elliott, if you don't like it, so be it 01:01:39 Vorpal: Or mplayer `youtube-dl -g` 01:01:58 pikhq: mplayer is retarded, it never buffers enough. 01:02:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpEu5AZnTGM 01:02:05 pikhq, that works too if it doesn't fuck up buffering as elliott said 01:02:06 zzo38: Wrong thing is an ellipsis made out of 8 dots. 01:02:10 elliott: -cache set-the-buffer-in-kilobytes 01:02:10 zzo38: It's three, man, it's three. 01:02:21 pikhq: It seems to buffer, use the entire buffer, get some more, etc. 01:02:22 It is stupid. 01:02:50 It is not ellipsis. It is a 8-dots-ellipsis. 01:03:07 elliott, anyway don't complain about youtube-dl just because you don't use it. There are no technical problems with it as such. 01:03:13 Anyways, I find youtube-dl handy for things encoded with the wrong aspect ratio, black level too high, interlaced, or the like. 01:03:17 Vorpal: Except sucking. 01:03:21 zzo38: There is no such thing. 01:03:21 elliott, how does it suck? 01:03:26 Vorpal: Every way! 01:03:38 elliott, you are not helpful in the least 01:03:50 Vorpal: You see, it sucks. 01:03:52 elliott, stop being a turd. 01:03:54 Also, batch download of something I don't want to watch *right now* but would like to watch later. 01:03:58 Tuuuuurd 01:04:00 You love that word. 01:04:03 elliott, either say /why/ it sucks or shut up. 01:04:08 elliott: Stop being a dumbass. 01:04:10 elliott, no I don't. I used it once here. 01:04:13 Vorpal: Because it sucks. 01:04:14 pikhq, quite. 01:04:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:04:25 pikhq: I'm actually just trying to irritate him which is working splendidly. 01:04:28 there, ignore added 01:04:34 elliott: See, dumbass! 01:04:40 How surprising. I bet it'll last for a whole ten minutes. 01:04:46 pikhq: To be fair, it's Vorpal and he always deserves it. 01:04:48 pikhq, just use /ignore as well :) 01:05:07 Vorpal: Nah, he's not pissing me off. 01:05:10 elliott: Now there is such thing as 8-dots-ellipsis because I had just used it. 01:05:23 Short-term stupidity is not enough to anger me, or even care too much about. 01:05:24 pikhq, he is however a dumbass as usual 01:05:32 "As usual"? 01:05:40 It is a different kind of punctuation than ellipsis because it is different use. 01:05:40 Funny, he's usually fairly intelligent. 01:05:44 pikhq, well okay he has moments where he lacks that 01:05:47 pikhq: Tuuuuuuuuuurds 01:05:47 pikhq, quite often even 01:05:58 pikhq, BUT these dumbass moments are quite regular. 01:06:03 elliott: Yes, yes, pieces of fecal matter. 01:06:06 pikhq, every few days 01:06:13 Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurds 01:06:21 pikhq: What Vorpal fails to understand is that I optimise solely for irritating him 01:06:40 P.S. Vorpal is wrong, he's used "turd" on here twice before. 01:07:19 * pikhq hates knowing that everything sucks. 01:07:26 I can't fix it! I'd have to rewrite everything! 01:07:50 Every: OS, browser, emulator, compiler, etc. sucks ass. 01:07:56 Especially emulators. 01:07:58 * Vorpal checks log to see if elliott became saner 01:08:00 hm nope 01:08:06 Vorpal: Turds turds turds. 01:08:09 Turds turds turds. 01:08:12 TURDS. Turds turds. 01:08:15 I know you've been logreading all this time. 01:08:16 Tuuuuuurds 01:08:18 I know of only a handful that even emulate the system in question well. 01:08:19 elliott: Is that a real sentence? 01:08:22 (Please ignore me forever.) 01:08:24 zzo38: Yes. 01:08:30 pikhq: You don't need to rewrite the OS, just use @. 01:08:38 "17:06:40 P.S. Vorpal is wrong, he's used "turd" on here twice before." <-- as a matter of fact, you used the word before too. And using a word more than once doesn't really mean you love it. It wasn't recently in any case. 01:08:40 Fewer still that have a usable UI. 01:08:45 Precisely one with readable code. 01:08:48 Vorpal: Turdy turdy turd 01:08:50 (it is, amazingly, in C++.) 01:08:57 pikhq: @@@ 01:09:13 Yes, readable C++. 01:09:50 * Sgeo WTFs at iCraft 01:09:52 pikhq: @ @ @ best os ? best os 01:10:03 Sgeo: what about it 01:10:16 pikhq, what is in readable C++ hm? 01:10:22 Portals that just teleport to the same world? 01:10:28 the best operating system is plan 9 01:10:32 Vorpal: bsnes. 01:10:35 Sgeo: that's cool people did Portal esque stuff with it 01:10:35 pikhq, ah 01:10:41 Seriously, look at it. 01:10:45 cheater99: plan 9 is kinda lame. 01:10:52 it's a major improvement on unix but still way, way too little. 01:10:52 elliott: that's true. 01:10:56 It's, like, executable documentation of an SNES. 01:10:57 hell, genera was clloser. 01:11:01 *closer. 01:11:27 the problem with genera is it doesn't have plan9's gui 01:11:40 pikhq, but does it use enhanced cweb? *ducks* 01:11:51 No, it doesn't. 01:12:04 * Sgeo WTFs at iCraft <-- ? 01:12:13 cheater99: plan 9's gui is better than most GUIs but wildly substandard. 01:12:20 cheater99: genera's UI was nicer because it was basically Emacs. 01:12:35 Admittedly Plan 9's was more flexible. 01:12:36 i think the standard is the average, not the median 01:12:39 (Genera makes up for that by using Lisp.) 01:12:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:13:07 pikhq, but does it use CWEB or any variant of CWEB? *peoples* 01:13:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:13:15 zzo38: NEIN 01:13:17 *aardvarks* 01:14:15 elliott: the reason why i like calculators made out of ttl logic is that you can't write a kernel for them, precluding the whole os debate. 01:14:24 pikhq: today i uploaded an interlaced video to my sight which claims to be xhtml but is in fact subtly invalid on every page and sent out of text/html 01:14:25 cheater99: riiight 01:14:58 pikhq: it was about downloading a bunch of GoodSNES ROMs and playing them with ZSNES, which I praised as the best piece of software ever written 01:15:21 pikhq: i also mocked bsnes for having ridiculous system requirements 01:15:39 zsnes is really well made 01:16:12 cheater99, why could you not make a calculator with TTL logic capable of running an OS? 01:16:15 in theory I mean 01:16:21 cheater99: It's very good assembly code. Its emulation leaves much to be desired these days, though. 01:16:23 elliott: Fuck you. 01:16:25 sure you would need more than the standard components 01:16:37 pikhq: hahahahahahahaha successful trolling 01:16:40 i should actually do that 01:16:55 cheater99: zsnes is actually terrible. 01:17:07 cheater99: it's basically a collection of hacks to make the most popular games work and nothing else. 01:17:21 elliott: well, my experience with it was very good. 01:17:29 elliott: Like most emulators, sadly. 01:17:31 well, yes, just about any emulator can run $game. 01:17:34 that's nothing new. 01:17:49 pikhq: except for MAME!111 except MAME is, like, actively developed to be as useless for actually playing things as possible. 01:17:55 it always felt very solid and fast and the options it provided always set it apart from other emulators 01:18:03 Make something like TRIP test but meant to test NES emulator, SNES emulator, GameBoy emulator, etc. 01:18:27 cheater99: Among other things, zsnes will change the emulated clock rate to work around bugs in its emulation. 01:18:28 Vorpal: because then it'd be more than a calculator 01:18:28 Honest. 01:18:44 cheater99, well but nothing in TTL logic precludes it 01:18:46 pikhq: yeah, emulators are always funny 01:18:58 Vorpal: no, but the word "calculators" does 01:19:03 cheater99, also no. my TI-83+ is still a calculator. graphing calculator. 01:19:03 cheater99: Not all emulators are like that. 01:19:08 cheater99, with flash 01:19:09 and so on 01:19:14 cheater99, but it is a calculator 01:19:16 but it's not discrete ttl logic 01:19:20 cheater99: Though bsnes has somewhat high system requirements, it's very good... 01:19:24 cheater99, indeed. 01:19:34 cheater99: you can turn bsnes down btw to get something that runs fast with slightly lower compatibility 01:19:37 still vastly more than zsnes though 01:19:46 i don't remember if i'd ever used bsnes 01:19:51 cheater99, but then we seen that nothing in either "TTL logic" NOR "calculator" precludes being unable to have an OS 01:19:59 my current gripe is not having a working DS emulator 01:20:00 cheater99: zsnes in and of itself is not a problem, although I don't know why you'd use it; the problem is people who advocate it blindly and malign things like bsnes for no reason. 01:20:01 elliott: bsnes's performance profile will accurately emulate all but 1 licensed game and all but a handful of demos. 01:20:08 pikhq: Indeed. 01:20:16 cheater99, thus follows that a calculator in TTL logic could have an OS 01:20:17 cheater99: snes9x is better at "I just wanna play a game on this low-end machine", FWIW. 01:20:18 (Than zsnes.) 01:20:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVt9dgpxwF4&feature=related what's the point of making the stripes go all the way down? 01:20:49 pikhq, it has some other profile than "performance"? 01:20:52 cheater99: Its accuracy profile emulates every SNES game accurately except for 2, and the ones that use the Satellaview expansion. 01:21:01 Vorpal: Performance, compatibility, accuracy. 01:21:09 pikhq, compat does what? 01:21:16 pikhq, even more performance than performance? 01:21:38 Is there any sort of thing similar to TRIP test but is meant for testing accuracy of SNES emulation and so on? 01:21:44 pikhq, also wait. performance: all but 1. accuracy all but 2? 01:21:45 what? 01:21:49 No, it's lower performance than the performance profile, but it has a somewhat more accurate CPU and PPU emulation. 01:21:59 Vorpal: it's an ascending scale 01:22:02 performance does almost all shit 01:22:09 compatibility does almost all + 1 (I think everything?) 01:22:12 Vorpal: Oh, wait, I forgot to mention the 2 that can't be emulated *at all* currently. 01:22:12 Vorpal: yes, but the tense i used was present, i.e. "i like calculators (...)", not "i would like calculators (...)" 01:22:13 accuracy does EVERYTHING PERFECTLY EVER. 01:22:19 pikhq, ah 01:22:20 Ascending scale of system requirements. 01:22:21 Vorpal: this means, existing calculators. 01:22:29 cheater99, okay 01:22:34 Vorpal: Those 2 use special chips in the cartridge which have not been reverse engineered yet. 01:22:47 pikhq, ah the fun of those 01:23:01 It used to be 3, but SD Gundam GX's DSP chip got its program ROM dumped. 01:23:11 Like, last month. 01:23:11 nice 01:23:14 elliott: yes, snes9x always seemed faster i think 01:23:28 i remember not being able to play zsnes but being able to play snes9x at some point 01:23:35 pikhq: omg i just realised, bsnes will be like awesome on this machine 01:23:44 Anyways, on top of those and the Satellaview, you get lower compatibility with the other profiles. 01:23:54 this opponent thought he was so clever stuffing his king behind the pawn so the only way I could not stalemate was to lose the pawn 01:23:57 [[The following two titles are unplayable, due to special on-cart DSPs whose program ROMs have not been extracted. 01:23:57 Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 1 (uses ST-0011 co-processor) 01:23:58 Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 2 (uses ST-0018 co-processor) 01:23:59 Anything not in the above list is assumed to be fully compatible and bug-free.]] 01:24:07 he lost 4 moves after taking the pawn to my rook 01:25:05 pikhq: hmm, bsnes tries to build with g++-mp-4.5 01:25:06 what's -mp- 01:25:36 The compatibility profile makes a graphical effect on 1 single game stop working and a couple demos stop working, and the performance profile *in addition* might not have pixel-accurate rendering of frames on other games. 01:25:51 else ifneq ($(findstring Darwin,$(uname)),) 01:25:51 platform := osx 01:25:51 delete = rm -f $1 01:25:53 else 01:25:55 erm 01:26:00 else ifeq ($(platform),osx) 01:26:00 compiler := gcc-mp-4.5 01:26:00 pikhq, the latter has reasonable system requirements? 01:26:06 pikhq: That's a good sign the stock gcc won't work, isn't it. 01:26:26 multiprocessing ? 01:26:29 pikhq, where reasonable means playable on a sempron 3300+ ;) 01:26:38 Ha great, the gcc shipping with os x doesn't do c++0x. 01:27:01 Also, the performance profile can't do in-game debugging, and it doesn't emulate the bizarre requirement that you need to wait a few clock cycles before reading the result of a divide or multiply. 01:27:22 pikhq: Is the NES perfectly emulated yet? 01:27:25 elliott: Does gcc ship with OS X now? 01:27:33 zzo38: If you install the developer tools, yes. 01:27:34 I thought before you said it didn't. 01:27:36 Like it always has 01:27:41 But not in the very stock install, no. 01:27:45 No official games care, but *many* ROM hacks will not do the necessary wait, because no other emulator handles that right. 01:27:48 elliott: Nestopia. 01:28:03 pikhq: Is it reaaaaaally perfect though? 01:28:29 pikhq, does anything depend on that bizzare requirement 01:28:36 bizarre* 01:28:59 elliott: well unless it can emulate jitter in the master clock it's not perfect emulation 01:29:05 There is also the category of homebrew games, in addition to official and ROM hacks. 01:29:12 cheater99: Perfect assuming a flawless universe. :p 01:29:15 Vorpal: No. But if you don't account for it, the game won't work on real hardware. 01:29:15 i believe the master clock in the nes was a relaxation oscillator which was very funny 01:29:20 as opposed to a crystal 01:29:22 (they cheaped out) 01:29:23 pikhq, fair enough 01:29:27 cheater99: i.e., cycle exact. 01:29:30 this made games do funny things 01:29:35 Which is why bsnes emulates it. 01:29:42 slow down and speed up depending on what instructions were being run etc 01:29:49 The idea is that if the game runs on the accuracy profile, it will work on a real SNES. 01:30:01 "The Accuracy core uses a slower dot-based emulation of the S-PPU rather than the traditional scanline-based method found in other SNES emulators. The Compatibility core uses the scanline-based rendering with code speedups that obfuscate the source code to an extent" 01:30:05 Err, what a strange text from Wikipedia. 01:30:10 That text links to the article on code obfuscation. 01:30:12 why is there no good ds emulator? 01:30:14 What is it saying? "Performant code is ugly?" 01:30:25 cheater99, isn't there one semi-decent? 01:30:28 cheater99: Isn't NO$GBA meant to be popular. Or DeSmuME. 01:30:30 elliott: It's not obfuscated, it's just optimised rather than being clear documentation. 01:30:33 no$gba sucks 01:30:37 desmume sucks even more 01:30:39 pikhq: Right. 01:30:51 I'm not sure who wrote that line in the Wikipedia article, but eeew. 01:31:04 no$gba is terrible: no saves, games are halfway unplayable 01:31:07 pikhq: OK, what simple systems aren't perfectly emulated. :p 01:31:12 pikhq: IT SOUNDS LIKE FUN 01:31:13 desmume is impossibly megaslow 01:31:23 and also games are unplayable 01:31:42 elliott: Probably not the Gameboy Advance. 01:31:52 *Definitely* not the Playstation. 01:31:57 pikhq: Oo, we have different definitions of simple, my friend. 01:32:04 And beyond that you're dealing with "insanely complex". 01:32:52 elliott: Okay, okay, lowering it a bit, then. Gameboy Advance not emulated well, nor, to my knowledge, is the Virtual Boy. 01:32:59 sega dreamcast 01:33:02 erm 01:33:04 sega saturn!! 01:33:05 haha 01:33:08 pikhq: What about the original Gameboy? 01:33:28 elliott: Gambatte or KiGB are believed to be as accurate as humanly possible. 01:33:39 pikhq: SUGGEST A SYSTEM 01:33:44 cheater99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haOCJ8wL0OA 01:33:50 Gambatte is used in bsnes for its Super Gameboy emulation currently. 01:34:34 elliott: The Magnavox Odyssey! 01:34:54 pikhq: Insufficiently interesting :P 01:35:00 It is, in fact, *completely* unemulated. 01:35:23 -!- p_q has joined. 01:35:30 pikhq: ...really? 01:35:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:35:37 pikhq: Analogue circuitry. NO THANK YOU. 01:35:42 >:D 01:35:53 pikhq: Cycle-exact emulation is therefore utterly impossible on a digital machine :P 01:36:13 elliott: Emulation of anything more recent than the SNES pretty much sucks ass. 01:36:18 pikhq: Hmm, is the C64 perfectly emulated? 01:36:32 pikhq: VICE is pretty good, it's handled everything I've thrown at it and god knows C64 programmers do awful things to that machine. But? 01:36:45 elliott: that's a troll right 01:36:54 cheater99: What is? 01:37:06 the video! 01:37:10 cheater99: No, it's real. 01:37:16 cheater99: ly terrible. 01:37:43 elliott: VICE seems to not be a perfect emulator... 01:37:53 the voice at the end coming from offscreen sounds like zombo.com 01:37:58 cheater99: lol 01:37:59 pikhq: :( 01:38:10 But it's close. 01:38:11 pikhq: The C64 is so complicated though, simply because of all the bugs and intricacies of implementation :P 01:38:20 Quite. 01:38:20 pikhq: yeah, probably easier to leave the VICE people to finish the job 01:38:25 GO FURTHER THAN YOU HAVE EVER GONE BEFORE. SEGA SATURN. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH SEGA SATURN. 01:38:30 pikhq: Suggest another machine, then :p 01:38:33 I WANNA EMULATE 01:38:33 WELCOME TO SEGA SATURN 01:38:48 cheater99: You will have nightmares about Silver Head tonight. 01:38:53 hoxs64 appears to be perfect but DOESN'T HAVE SOURCE. 01:38:56 what's silver head again? 01:38:56 Are you ready... for the future? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA 01:38:57 elliott: Gameboy Advance. 01:39:05 cheater99: That guy. 01:39:07 In the ad. 01:39:08 It's probably simpler than the SNES to emulate. 01:39:12 well 01:39:13 pikhq: Isn't the GBA pretty damn advanced though? :p 01:39:19 i thought i'd check out another promo 01:39:21 pikhq: Lord knows the GBA emulators still get updated. 01:39:25 i clicked and thought it can't be that bad 01:39:40 after exactly 7 seconds i have realized how wrong i was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99iiUtPR-fM&NR=1 01:39:57 It's similar to the SNES in capability, except without all the things that make emulator authors cry. 01:40:01 pikhq: http://www.hoxs64.net/files/hoxs64.txt "Hoxs64 V1.0.0 BETA (c) 2001 David Horrocks" ""Core 2 Duo 1.5Ghz or Athlon 2Ghz or Pentium4 3Ghz." 01:40:02 TIME TRAVELLER 01:40:05 at the 12th second i have paused because i couldn't watch on. 01:40:19 cheater99: SOLDIER ON 01:40:45 elliott: in fact the Hoxs64 project is a secret prototype benchmark for future generations of computer processors 01:40:55 :D 01:40:58 (16 MHz ARM, 4/8 MHz GB-Z80, *no fucking crazy PPU*, and NO SPECIAL CHIPS. AT ALL.) 01:41:02 cheater99: oh god, that one you linked 01:41:04 cheater99: is the same one 01:41:06 there, timed ignore expired 01:41:06 it goes to Silver Head 01:41:08 after saturngirl 01:41:08 as they are released to the public, his nda allows him to add more architectures to the compatibility list 01:41:08 I see 01:41:12 Vorpal: turds turds turds 01:41:18 cheater99, that ad, I think I saw myst in it 01:41:25 (the sega one) 01:42:07 elliott: oh damn, i hadn't even noticed 01:42:16 elliott: i just paused on alienhead 01:42:19 cheater99: then it goes on to do all sorts of things, from skipping around 01:42:23 worst advert or best advert? 01:42:25 i can't decide 01:42:39 elliott: BTW, *most* emulators "still in development" don't focus much on improving emulation accuracy. 01:42:40 pikhq: I'll start a perfect emulation project for the GBA if you'll help. :p 01:42:43 THE INFINITE IS ATTAINABLE WITH SEGA SATURN 01:42:48 Right. Which is why it sounds fun. 01:42:54 And also _easier_; I can just implement the behaviour directly. 01:42:56 Amusingly. SNES9x actually does improve on accuracy. 01:43:04 pikhq: BUT YOU HAVE TO HELP because I'm supremely laz. 01:43:04 y. 01:43:08 IIRC they now use the same sound emulation as bsnes. 01:43:15 worst advert or best advert? <-- worst by far I ever seen 01:43:26 cheater99: BTW, NO$GBA is _meant_ to be a pretty good DS emulator for actually playing games... 01:43:32 Vorpal: But is it the worst or the _best_? 01:43:36 Vorpal: I can imagine Lynch creating that. 01:43:38 elliott: i know 01:43:50 elliott: but it doesn't work for XX XY which immediately disqualifies it 01:43:55 and you only find out when you get to scene 8. 01:44:11 at least it doesn't work in wine. 01:44:26 elliott: FIrst and foremost, use Byuu's libco. 01:44:32 elliott, the one with the woman looks like it would be against Swedish law. Gender discrimination. 01:44:33 elliott: That alone will save you a lot of effort. 01:44:43 elliott, as in, as an *ad* in Sweden 01:44:46 Vorpal: You mean the thing at the start? 01:44:49 elliott, yes 01:44:52 the thing at the start 01:44:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpA3RJyyVSk 01:44:58 vectorman and ecco were really cool 01:45:00 Vorpal: What if it was immediately followed by the same thing with a man. 01:45:05 the one game i had never beat: the ooze 01:45:10 it was very fun too, but tough 01:45:12 elliott, doubt it would help if it was a man 01:45:23 Vorpal: heh 01:45:29 pikhq: Is libco anything but coroutines? 01:45:35 Nope! 01:45:42 pikhq: But there are hundreds of coroutine libs. 01:45:48 elliott, also what was the target audience? kids? 01:45:50 libco's small and simple. 01:45:51 or older? 01:46:02 Vorpal: 13-year-olds who think it's cool. 01:46:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNbx53ErzQ 01:46:06 pikhq: X-D Look at the first post on http://byuu.org/. 01:46:15 pikhq: I sure hope he's not planning to upgrade that to Advance. 01:46:15 elliott, if kids they would have been into /deep shit/ in Sweden with such an ad. 01:46:22 elliott, because then stricter rules apply 01:46:27 elliott: He's not even intending to upgrade that to Color. 01:46:39 What about PC emulation (for playing those DOS games that no longer work well under modern OSes)? 01:46:50 elliott: It's meant to replace Gambatte for his Super Gameboy emulation. 01:46:56 -!- FireyFly has joined. 01:47:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:47:00 Ilari: Bochs is pretty much cycle-accurate PC emulation. 01:47:04 DOSBox is usually more useful, though. 01:47:07 pikhq: Fair enough then. 01:47:20 pikhq: So will you at least half-heartedly help with a GBA emulation project or do I have to be all alone :p 01:47:32 I may well help with it. 01:47:53 Though I wish I had a GBA flash cart so we could actually do hardware tests when necessary. 01:47:58 pikhq: Hey, didn't you say you'd port bsnes' Qt UI to libsnes? Seems he's already done that and looking for a maintainer ... 01:48:16 "my megadrive, which is the japamanese original one" 01:48:21 And maintainers have already stepped up before I saw that. :P 01:48:22 pikhq: Also, that would be nice. Aren't they still sold? 01:48:32 Yes-ish. 01:48:48 "As a consequence, the bsnes download page has removed reference to the old bsnes/Qt v070 release. This site will only focus on pure accuracy at any cost. I am hoping that the future Qt maintainer can set up a page for casual SNES emulator users to peruse." 01:48:55 Is he trying to... become an emulation academic? 01:49:02 Ph.D. in emulation? 01:49:10 Though it's possible later consoles actually change details. 01:49:19 elliott: He actually did not graduate from high school. 01:49:19 pikhq: I mean the flash carts. 01:49:26 Oh, yeah, totally. 01:49:29 That's nothing new. :p 01:49:35 I have a GBA from launch. 01:49:39 Whoo. 01:49:45 pikhq: I have an Advanced SP but not an original Advanced, but I'm faaairly sure they're absolutely identical internals-wise. 01:49:51 Except with a BACKLIGHT which is a killer feature. 01:49:56 Probably, but not necessarily. 01:50:16 The SNES's smaller revision actually changed a lot of details, for instance. 01:50:30 elliott, perfect gba emulation? cool 01:50:35 Oh, it's atually frontlit. Ha. 01:50:35 perfect gameshark emulation too? 01:50:40 pikhq: Eh, I can always eBay. 01:50:44 (it's effectively the same as a cheap SNES clone from China, as far as capabilities go.) 01:50:59 (yes, this means bsnes is more accurate than some "real" SNES's) 01:51:06 Vorpal: Paaatches welcome, I have no idea about the GBA hardware so this will basically be a diary of learning in version control form :) 01:51:25 elliott, well I have no GBA hardware 01:51:33 elliott, so I'm pretty much useless on this 01:51:35 Vorpal: Fairly cheap right now. 01:51:45 Vorpal: The hardware won't help me *much*; I'll probably end up scouring the web for documentation to start with. 01:51:48 pikhq, not sure I really care enough to get a gba 01:51:58 Aw, but the GBA is a really nice cons... sort of. 01:52:06 ...I can't actually think of many good non-Pokemon games for it really. 01:52:17 elliott: Sonic Advance was decent. 01:52:18 BUT WHO CARES 01:52:21 elliott, zelda's link awakening? 01:52:28 Vorpal: GBC 01:52:34 Oh, yeah, the Zeldas are probably good, never got around to playing any Zelda games on GBA. 01:52:40 pikhq, oh right. But I played it in visual boy advance? 01:52:43 Also, ports of good games. 01:52:51 Vorpal: Which also emulates the GB/GBC. 01:52:55 Inaccurately, but hey. 01:53:00 pikhq, ah, so this won't work in your emulator then? 01:53:05 :/ 01:53:06 -!- p_q has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:53:11 It's actually not too much work to add GB or GBC emulation to a GBA emulator. 01:53:26 well zelda is cool. Needs to be there and so on 01:53:26 The GBA uses the GB-Z80 for some sound effects. 01:53:35 heh 01:53:50 Vorpal: *my emulator! 01:53:55 pikhq is just helping because I'm forcing him to. 01:53:57 Like a wizard. 01:53:59 An evil wizard. 01:54:13 elliott, right got it. You are the figure head. 01:54:32 right. 01:54:36 I meant 01:54:40 missed a dot there 01:54:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:54:55 * pikhq wonders how painful the ARM is. 01:55:37 pikhq: o god, i have to emulate an arm? 01:55:48 elliott: Main CPU. 01:55:50 Oh god, it's Thumb too. All new and modern. 01:55:54 It has a 16 MHz ARM. 01:56:15 Hmm. 01:56:20 couldn't you reuse ARM code from qemu or something? 01:56:22 Also a GB-Z80! 01:56:23 iPod, Lego Mindstorms, Roomba... 01:56:27 All use the same CPU. 01:56:32 what you really want to emulate is a directx8 pc for games 01:56:32 Vorpal: I doubt that's cycle-accurate. 01:56:35 elliott, I beg to differ 01:56:37 that should be fairly easy. 01:56:37 Vorpal: qemu is very solidly not an accurate emulator. 01:56:40 elliott, lego mindstorms NXT sure 01:56:46 NXT, yes. 01:56:50 Vorpal: It's like a half-JIT. 01:56:57 You're the only person with a shitty enough university to care about mindstorms >:) 01:57:00 elliott, but RCX used a H8300 01:57:10 pikhq: Maaybe not the GBA then... ARM sounds kinda painful. 01:57:11 ennough with this mc 01:57:16 Maybe but, maybe not. 01:57:16 Probably works just fine for emulating a Linux system, but game consoles tend to care about a lot of annoying details. 01:57:16 elliott, hey this I care about due to my free time 01:57:17 goodnight 01:57:22 nooga: buy it and you can get on our server :p 01:57:29 Vorpal: Ahh, so you're just hopeless then! 01:57:36 elliott, elliott anyway RCX has a Hitachi H8300 01:57:38 as the CPU 01:57:43 Hitachi make CPUs? 01:57:46 elliott, used to 01:57:49 Western Digital CPUs! 01:57:52 Seagate CPUs! 01:57:53 MAXTOR CPUS 01:57:53 elliott, they sold the division 01:57:56 QUANTUM CPUS 01:57:58 I wanna do something 01:58:00 I can't think of what though 01:58:03 elliott, nvidia cpus next 01:58:06 coppro: HELP ME WRITE A PERFECT GBA EMULATOR. 01:58:11 which is weird because I'm pretty sure it's like one thing 01:58:12 elliott: no u 01:58:25 ima go one-line more project euler in Haskell 01:58:26 Vorpal: ATI CPUs, yes; well, AMD Vision CPUs, which will just be called AMD CPUs. 01:58:27 But yes :P 01:58:30 coppro: J bitch 01:58:43 I actually bet the Atari is a royal pain to emulate. 01:58:46 coppro: Q: What do J users call the activity that other languages' users call "one-lining"? A: Half-charactering. 01:58:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H8_Family 01:58:58 elliott, "H8 is the name of a large family of 8-bit and 16-bit microcontrollers made by Renesas Technology, originating in the early 1990s within Hitachi Semiconductor and still actively evolving as of 2006." 01:59:25 elliott, I believe they were Hitachi when the first RCX were produced 01:59:34 and then later they become Renesas for later model RCX 01:59:45 I'm not about to pry my two RCX open to check though 01:59:46 Renesas. Sounds terrorist. 02:00:12 mr spock is having a seizure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvgteRnaIhA&feature=related 02:00:35 pikhq: Before I get started on any of this though, I need to get Ubuntu installed. 02:00:43 Especially as almost every game more advanced than Pong was actually exploiting unintended hardware features. 02:00:50 pikhq: Look at what OS X gives me: 02:00:50 say what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytwbGVExWi8&feature=related 02:00:52 pikhq: i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1 (GCC) 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5664) 02:01:03 pikhq: Did I mention you have to use -fnested-functions to get nested functions? For no reason? 02:01:10 elliott: am I a bad person: triangles n = (:) <*> (:[]) . (+1) 02:01:12 elliott: Bleck. 02:01:17 coppro: haha they're smiling 02:01:24 err 02:01:25 s/n/ 02:01:44 coppro: that won't parse 02:01:45 i don't think 02:01:46 needs more parens 02:01:56 Heck, displaying more than 2 sprites on the 2600 required using hardware bugs. 02:01:57 02:01 elliott: @pl ((:) <*> (:[])) . (+1) 02:01:57 02:01 lambdabot: ((:) <*> return) . (1 +) 02:01:59 coppro: HTH 02:02:00 elliott, wait, isn't .|. bitwise or in haskell? 02:02:10 Vorpal: Umm, if you import Data.Bits I think. 02:02:14 pikhq: X-D 02:02:15 elliott, ah right 02:02:24 Vorpal: Why? 02:02:26 pikhq: Any console ideas that don't involve ARM? 02:02:29 elliott, it always looked so dirty to me :P 02:02:46 elliott, what about GBC? 02:02:46 Vorpal: Well, yeah, you're doing bitwise manipulations, you should feel dirt. 02:02:47 *dirty. 02:02:50 I don't think had ARM 02:02:53 elliott: N64? 02:02:54 Vorpal: GBC has been done perfectly, I believe. 02:02:56 it had* 02:02:57 >:D 02:02:57 pikhq can confirm/deny 02:03:02 elliott, n64 yes! 02:03:09 pikhq: Fuck you, man, N64 is where high-level emulators got INVENTED :P 02:03:22 Vorpal: 100% game and demo compatibility has been achieved by two *different* emulators for the GBC. 02:03:28 Proper N64 rerecording emulation would be pretty big deal... 02:03:41 Ilari, quite. Will you help elliott on this? 02:03:44 elliott: Yes, because nobody bothered emulating the RDP right. 02:03:49 Ilari: Don't believe his lies. 02:03:53 pikhq: I'm not doing N64. Ever. 02:03:57 Okay. 02:04:02 i want one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXHM1I8wgtc&feature=related 02:04:17 Hmm. I'm actually unsure about the Sega family of systems. 02:04:31 Not even if the Singularity comes and we all get infinite lifespans to spend how I wish, and I perform every other possible action such that each action in the set can be performed in a time span of 700 billion years or less, 02:04:32 (Master System/Genesis/Game Gear) 02:04:40 not even then will I write a cycle-accurate N64 emulator. 02:04:41 As would be proper rerecording emulation of Sega Saturn or Sega Dreamcast... 02:04:46 *how we wish, 02:04:47 pikhq, which one was RDP then? 02:04:48 (et cetra) 02:04:51 NEVER. 02:04:53 Vorpal: Graphics. 02:04:56 pikhq, ah 02:05:07 Vorpal: You could upload microcode to it, and many games did this. 02:05:22 Vorpal: N64 emulators just emulate the behavior of the microcode instead. 02:05:35 Not only will a metal ball the size of the sun be worn down by solar winds before I emulate the N64, but entire universes will be simulated from start to finish such that if each universe took up a quark it would result in a ball the size of the sun when packed together with no empty space between them at all. 02:05:48 And even then, I will not write a cycle-accurate Nintendo 64 emulator. 02:05:49 This works for a *large* number of games (because few people actually *wrote* microcode), but quite a few get left out. 02:05:54 pikhq: DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET 02:06:10 OR AM I NOT BEING QUITE EXPRESSIVE ENOUGH 02:06:12 LET ME TRY 02:06:19 elliott: Cycle-accurate might be unneeded. 02:06:47 pikhq: Even if your mother loses SO MUCH WEIGHT that she's actually NO LONGER CLASSED AS OBESE — which would take longer than the universe will last — I will not write a Nintendo 64 emulator. 02:06:53 Anyways. 02:06:55 ...okay, maybe if /that/ much time passes I will. 02:06:56 BUT NO SOONER 02:07:33 susan plays streets of rage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyaiGLITrN8&feature=related 02:07:35 I do not know of an accurate emulator for the Genesis. 02:07:44 pikhq: I do not know of any good games for the Genesis. 02:07:51 elliott: Sonic Sonic Sonic! 02:08:01 pikhq: Bah :P 02:08:21 Though that would be a *royal* pain if you want to emulate the 32x or the CD as well. 02:08:23 elliott: you should make an emulator that JUST runs sonic 1/2/3/k 02:08:37 I want to write an emulator that JUST runs the 8-bit Sonic. 02:08:40 Easy if you want to emulate the Game Gear or the Master System, or the SG-1000... 02:08:45 Before they decided that the best way to market consoles was to make him run REALLY FAST. 02:08:49 (Stupidest decision ever?) 02:08:59 best stupidest decision ever. 02:09:16 Worst. 02:09:16 (Sega's systems before the Saturn were based around the same hardware) 02:09:27 I don't actually /like/ most of the Sonic games. 02:09:36 (many of them were even electrically compatible) 02:09:44 When you reduce the majority of play to going really fast, you don't have any game left. 02:10:28 (see http://newbreview.com/2010/07/22/retro-fix-sonic-the-hedgehog-8-bit/, btw) 02:11:15 -!- zeotrope has joined. 02:11:24 pikhq: Maybe I'll perfectly emulate a seriously fucked up fictional system whose only game is I Wanna Be The Guy. 02:11:42 but I do wanna be the guy 02:12:01 pikhq: Perhaps I'll design my own architecture based on the IWBTG executable. "Why, this complicated Windows API call? Looks like a really long CPU instruction to me!" 02:12:11 So that the .exe works as a ROM. :p 02:13:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBVn0g7fZTU&feature=related WTF 02:13:18 "Dig straight down" 02:13:31 Good PC rerecording emulation would also be quite a deal (so far PC rerecording emulation is pretty much garbage). 02:13:43 Sgeo: Digging straight down is not deadly if you're, say, on the surface and just doing it for a few blocks ... 02:14:04 Ilari: Rerecording is actually pretty easy if you've got cycle-accurate emulation. 02:14:22 You pretty much just need the ability to serialise after a clock cycle, and restore that. 02:14:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2mpcssg274&feature=related < 1:20 02:14:44 Ilari: How is that Nethack TAS going btw? 02:14:57 Of course, the PC is freaking painful to do cycle-accurately. 02:15:04 Everything changes from system to system! 02:15:18 Sgeo: Holy shit this is overcomplicated. 02:16:10 elliott: Seems like turn 317, fighting The Wizard of Yendor. 02:16:13 Of course, the PC is freaking painful to do cycle-accurately. Everything changes from system to system! <-- then you probably don't need it. Since nothing will assume cycle accurate anyway 02:16:15 right? 02:16:21 Ilari: RNG hackery I presume? :) 02:16:26 Lots. 02:16:34 Vorpal: You need it for perfect TASing. 02:16:44 Since the goal is basically "take as few cycles as possible". 02:16:44 elliott: make an emacs emulator 02:16:49 elliott: it only runs emacs. 02:16:52 elliott, perfect in the sense it could not be done on a real machine? 02:17:16 Well, it may be needed, but only for early PC games. 02:17:24 Like, the original IBM PC. 02:17:44 Vorpal: That applies to all TASes, pretty much. 02:17:51 cheater99: done, it's called emacs 02:17:59 elliott: oh snap. 02:18:16 elliott: what about emulating an lcd game? 02:18:22 elliott: egg harvest! 02:18:27 boring 02:19:08 hmm.. 02:19:37 I'll emulate anything simpler than an ARM :P 02:19:45 cray x-mp? 02:19:51 ok, ok 02:19:54 old nokia phone? 02:20:03 elliott: Atari 2600? 02:20:05 cheater99: bit pointless :P 02:20:16 pikhq: I thought you just said that wast he land of *insane* hardware glithces. 02:20:20 *was the *glitches 02:20:21 elliott, I pretty much stopped watching, got distracted 02:20:28 elliott: *And* NTSC artifacts! 02:20:42 elliott, why not make a cycle accurate calculator emulator? Say, TI-82 or some such 02:20:53 Also, no framebuffer. 02:20:54 Vorpal: Aren't there already? 02:20:54 At all. 02:20:55 because who cares 02:20:56 elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculator_gaming 02:21:03 elliott, I don't know if they are cycle accurate 02:21:05 I know perfectly well tyvm 02:21:20 If people arnen't stupid enough they will understand that it is FAKE 02:21:20 DetHeMi 1 week ago 02:21:20 @DetHeMi lol, well done 02:21:21 WtfMinecraft 1 week ago 02:21:23 Sgeo: ^ 02:21:27 elliott: why is arm so difficult to emulate? 02:21:34 cheater99: it's just a complicated normalarchitecture 02:22:02 cheater99: Some newer consoles are probably worse than just dealing with the ARM, though. 02:22:14 Namely, ones where you need to emulate a large number of CPUs. 02:22:23 (looking at *you*, Sony.) 02:22:23 Sgeo: dunno if it is fake though 02:22:31 Sgeo: it looks real enough, but it'd be one-use 02:22:32 ds is just arm7 and arm9 or something like that 02:22:44 elliott, I didn't even watch it 02:22:50 I'm talking to someone >.> 02:22:59 Sgeo: Is it Alluded-To. 02:23:04 Yes 02:23:16 elliott, generic cycle accurate ARM emulator. Then you can just add on some custom code for each of the ARM products. And you done lots of different consoles and tools 02:23:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHMiJFfsEj4&NR=1 02:23:28 elliott, you could do a roomba emulator even (not sure why though!) 02:23:34 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram). 02:23:36 Vorpal: ROOMBA EMULATOR OMG YES 02:23:42 Vorpal: I'd put it in horrible mazes and watch it suffer. 02:23:52 what's roomba? 02:23:53 elliott, I knew you would love that 02:23:54 And then put it in a huge clean room with no obstacles because I feel sorry for it. 02:23:56 :( 02:24:00 cheater99: a robot that cleans. 02:24:05 oh that thing 02:24:10 cheater99: And the Gameboy is "just" an ARM7 and a GB-Z80. 02:24:13 Still a pain. 02:24:13 Sayyygaaaaaah! 02:24:23 Erm, Gameboy Advance. 02:24:30 The Gameboy is just a GB-Z80. 02:24:37 -!- variable has joined. 02:24:38 pikhq, what about GBC? 02:24:47 Vorpal: Twice the clock rate, same CPU. 02:24:51 ah 02:25:02 Also, palleting. 02:26:06 pikhq: Are you suuuure the GBC is cycle-perfected? 02:26:08 GB, sure, but GBC? 02:26:53 cycle-perfected? 02:27:08 hrm haskell 02:27:10 stop being lame 02:27:16 coppro: emulated perfectly to cycle granularity 02:28:37 GBC ? 02:28:54 garbage collection ? 02:29:09 variable: game boy colour 02:29:12 Yay, we scheduled a day 02:30:21 Sgeo: Stop alluding to Alluded-To. 02:31:04 -!- calamari has joined. 02:32:10 coppro: emulated perfectly to cycle granularity <-- what, no more 02:32:16 what about sub cycle? 02:32:26 elliott, emulate the actual transistors 02:32:32 cycle perfected = ? 02:32:32 * variable knows little about emulation 02:32:33 elliott, with quantum noise! 02:32:53 Vorpal: what about background radiation 02:32:59 cheater99, that too of course 02:33:01 variable: cycle-perfect emulation 02:33:09 variable: i.e., perfect emulation down to the cycle level of every internal piece of hardware 02:33:27 cheater99, and thermal noise of course 02:33:27 Nintendo DS is ARM7 and ARM9. Official games all use the standard ARM7 code, though. Homebrew games will use their own ARM7 codes, so you will need to emulate the ARM7 if you want to emulate homebrew Nintendo DS programs. 02:33:54 ahhh - lag 02:34:05 * Sgeo lols at "quckly" 02:34:15 elliott: you want to emulate ds 02:34:15 It's not as though the flow of water will stop 02:34:23 cheater99: no, way too much work 02:34:33 elliott: let me redefine 02:34:40 elliott: you want to make an XX XY emulator 02:34:56 No, I don't :P 02:35:05 it's a good game :p 02:35:58 I wrote a GameBoy game once, I had to add a extra VBLANK to make it work on Goomba emulator 02:36:46 { I have 23 second lag now - so my questions/comments may seem a bit off - sorry } 02:37:44 elliott: make a (working and usable) eniac emulator 02:37:49 cheater99: no :P 02:37:51 those exist iirc 02:37:58 usable 02:38:01 that's simpler than arm!!!! 02:38:15 elliott: make a (working and usable) eniac emulator IN MINECRAFT 02:38:22 HA 02:38:28 cheater99: i've played the tic-tac-toe game on an eniac emulator iirc 02:38:48 elliott: Very. 02:38:54 elliott: Gambatte and KiGB do so. 02:38:55 cheater99, don't take a productive member of society and encourage him to play minecraft 02:39:02 its just wrong 02:39:06 variable: encourage? he needs no encouragement 02:39:15 pikhq: ;_; 02:39:17 variable: Dude, I already play Minecraft :P 02:39:26 And I'm nooooot a productive member of society except by really strange definitions. 02:39:34 elliott: With a cycle-accurate emulation, you can do mode 7-like effects on there. 02:39:49 WHY HAS EVERYONE GOT TO PLACES BEFORE I GET TO PLACES 02:39:56 Yes, with hardware that's on par with the NES. 02:40:57 (note: unintended feature) 02:41:02 elliott: i thought GBC wasn't very different from GB 02:41:08 it isn't, but dammit :P 02:41:22 cheater99: No it is basically the same. Just it is color 02:41:29 zzo38: And double clock-rate. 02:41:42 Which is fairly easy to account for. 02:41:43 pikhq: It supports double clock-rate but you can switch it at run-time 02:41:50 Well, yeah. 02:41:50 yea, so why would gbc be that different from gb to warrant: GB, sure, but GBC? ? 02:42:09 cheater99: because the extra bits might not be perfect yet! :P 02:42:13 GBC emulation comes almost for free from GB emulation. 02:42:20 elliott: they might be rotting 02:42:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:42:34 pikhq: [[Lastly, there was the case of Speedy Gonzales. In level 6-1, there is a switch that needs to be hit to finish the level. Up until recently, this game would lock up any emulator when it was hit. You can probably imagine why this was overlooked, but it's quite a big deal to play a game that long and instantly lose all of your progress due to an emulation bug. In this case, it actually turns out to be a bug in the game itself. B 02:42:35 ut as it works on hardware, it needs to work under emulation as well. It is reading from an unmapped memory address, and will not break out of this loop until it gets the value it wants. As it turns out, after so many tests, eventually the read will happen immediately after an HDMA transfer, which will update the S-CPU's memory data register, giving the game the value it needs to break out of the loop.]] 02:42:43 byuu: you are crazy. 02:42:50 elliott: Yes, yes he is. 02:43:04 byuu: we won't hold it against you if you just lie down for a day. srsly. 02:43:06 promise. 02:43:09 relax. 02:43:31 elliott: He actually doesn't do *too* much of the hardware testing. 02:43:47 Though his dump-all-SNES-games project is positively crazy. 02:43:55 In the awesome sort of way, of course. 02:44:04 [[blargg's S-DSP core is known to be 100% bit-perfect to real hardware, with the one exception that the mute command is instant, and does not exhibit a very fast fade-out effect.]] 02:44:05 UN 02:44:06 AC 02:44:07 FUCKING 02:44:08 CEPTABLE! 02:44:16 TRASH IT OUT AND WRITE A NEW ONE 02:44:20 *THROW 02:44:23 elliott: Analog... 02:44:36 pingveno: EMULATE 02:44:36 PURE 02:44:37 ANALOGUE 02:44:38 UNIVERSE 02:44:40 *pikhq: 02:45:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EMX8qIgWOs 02:45:22 THE ACTION 02:46:37 pikhq: Srsly, computers should come with reprogrammable analogue hardware. :D 02:46:42 elliott: make a cycle accurate emulation of a DX-7 with the option of scaling it up to 64 fs 02:46:57 cheater99: Those sound effects are fake, right? 02:47:01 Or is it actaully hooked up to a speaker? 02:47:02 *actually 02:47:05 i'd think so 02:47:06 elliott: Do you know how to make up such computer hardware? 02:47:09 elliott: Y'know who's crazy? Dr. Decapitator. 02:47:26 pikhq: Anyone who purports to be a doctor and then decapitates people is crazy. 02:47:29 zzo38: Nope. 02:47:33 cheater99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMmUciXRMaI&feature=related realistic 02:47:37 i'd think what 02:47:38 fake or speaker 02:47:45 elliott: He decaps chips for MAME, and has been doing so for bsnes as well. 02:47:59 i was replying to the first 02:48:10 pikhq: I should write a CYCLE-ACCURATE emulator of the MT-32. 02:48:13 pikhq: Note: The MT-32 is analogue. 02:48:18 i don't think there's even any sort of pcm sound on the ti 83 02:48:23 pikhq: Seriously, why don't computers come with reprogrammable analogue. 02:48:30 cheater99: just generate raw pcm data and send it over a wire :D 02:48:31 se'hųku ni site, ne. 02:48:34 pikhq: what 02:48:44 i saw that halo 3 thing too 02:48:44 Commit suicide, right? 02:48:46 I think the TI-83 has no built-in sound at all (although you could connect an external speaker) 02:48:53 pikhq: clearly 02:49:18 zzo38: It had a TSR jack connected to a UART... 02:49:27 zzo38: You could *probably* get square wave audio out of there. 02:49:39 oh yes 02:49:47 and with PWM, you could totally emulate normal sound 02:49:53 pikhq: If you have such a calculator, could you try that? 02:49:54 what frequency did the uart work at? 02:50:57 [[The past three years have been amazing. I know that SNES emulation can never be 100% perfect, but I finally feel that I have reached a point where I could walk away from bsnes and feel that my job is done. That the SNES hardware is very well preserved for future generations.]] 02:51:01 I bet he questions that not-100% thing now. 02:51:02 zzo38: You could *probably* get square wave audio out of there. <-- been done 02:51:26 I have a TI-83+ but they connector is not a normal speaker connector I think 02:51:29 it is longer 02:51:41 Uh, 9600 kbit/s. Knowing how serial works, that gets you... 76.8 MHz audio. 02:51:53 wait 02:51:55 76.8 MHz, 1 bit audio. 02:51:58 is that 9.6 mbit/s? 02:52:08 Erm, 9600 bits/s. 02:52:09 Sorry. 02:52:16 76.8 kHz audio. 02:52:23 pikhq: Ha. MAME SNES emulation is worse than something called "ESNES". 02:52:26 Which is still enough for *recognisable* audio. 02:52:28 Is that a good enough audio to make a telephone noise? 02:52:31 pikhq, TI-83/83+ has crazy cable 02:52:34 pikhq, just saying 02:52:38 it's 1 bit 02:52:59 it's sort of like 16 khz 4 bit audio 02:53:00 pikhq, the computer link had to include a PIC to deal with translating to something that the computer could use 02:53:31 which is going to go up to say 8 khz 02:53:38 so you could do speech... very nasty speech 02:54:13 [[Oh, and believe it or not, until recently MAME/MESS used floating point for their synchronization counters.]] 02:54:13 barf 02:54:22 cheater99, you could do chiptune style music 02:54:22 wtf? 02:54:30 pikhq: 76.8 kHz is enough for anything isn't it? 02:54:41 Telephone is generally done with 8 kHz, 8-bit mu-law audio. 02:54:43 elliott: 1-bit. 02:54:49 elliott: make a working mortal kombat trilogy arcade emulator, cycle-accurate 02:55:04 But yeah, you could *definitely* get workable audio out of there. 02:55:12 pikhq, BEEN DONE 02:55:24 as I said above 02:55:34 pikhq: yeah, it could definitely work 02:55:38 pikhq: someone would have to try it 02:55:48 cheater99, :P 02:55:54 it would be cool if someone did that 02:55:57 shame it hasn't happened yet 02:55:58 i wonder why 02:56:04 elliott, very droll 02:56:10 elliott: maybe it's just a discovery waiting to happen?? 02:56:16 cheater99: Let's try it out! 02:56:18 elliott: maybe the ti 83 is actually skynet! 02:56:21 I wrote a program once on Linux that generates a lot of telephone noises, including: arbitrary frequency, red box, blue box, silver box, dial tone, busy signal, special information tones, ... 02:56:24 I wonder if it IS possible. 02:56:26 Vorpal: Is it possible? 02:56:34 . 02:56:36 and it's waiting for us to plug earphones into the port... a digital port, connected directly to our crania 02:56:45 Vorpal: y/n? 02:56:47 NO FUTURE 02:56:57 elliott µ 02:57:17 Vorpal: \0 02:57:23 ° 02:57:47 elliott: There are a few things that could be more accurately emulated on the SNES, but not *much*. 02:58:03 pikhq: such as? 02:58:07 pikhq: That mute-thing strikes me as one. 02:58:15 It would be impossible to perfectly emulate the analogue behaviour of the fast fadeout. 02:58:16 duck hunt controller?? 02:58:28 The Cx4, used by the Megaman X2 and X3, for instance. 02:58:29 cheater99: No, anything that isn't strictly digital. 02:58:35 Is impossible, I think. 02:58:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 02:58:37 elliott: it's just a simple RLC that can be easily emulated 02:58:38 Currently, bsnes uses a very accurate HLE. 02:58:46 and is easily emulated in thousands of existing softwares 02:58:48 cheater99: I don't think a Turing machine can perfectly emulate an analogue sound effect. 02:58:51 cheater99: Note *perfectly*. 02:58:53 Yes, it can do it very well. 02:58:55 But not *perfectly*. 02:59:02 no, not perfectly 02:59:14 cheater99: Thus 100% SNES emulation is impossible with digital computing. 02:59:14 but emulation is different from reproduction 02:59:21 cheater99: bsnes is very much a reproducer. 02:59:24 you mean 100% snes reproduction 02:59:27 emulation is possible 02:59:29 Until recently, the DSPs were likewise. 02:59:29 Yes, also called perfect emulation. 02:59:45 /dev/urandom is a 100% snes emulator, for my emulation goal 02:59:59 cheater99: emulation is not used in that way. 03:00:02 when referring to console emulation. 03:00:06 it is used to mean reproduction. 03:00:12 usually very inaccurate reproduction. 03:00:15 And the ST-0011 and ST-0010 are completely unemulated. 03:00:27 Erm, s/11/18/. 03:00:36 The ST-0011 is partially emulated via HLE. 03:00:50 elliott: i still say the DX 7 should be your goal 03:00:58 or a synclavier 03:01:01 (the fm part) 03:01:04 cheater99: i don't like synths :/ 03:01:08 (the fm part is actually very intricate) 03:01:12 the synclavier is british! 03:01:12 I might emulate an SK-1 :) 03:01:18 you should do it because of that! 03:01:31 it's pretty much a huge computer with sound output 03:02:00 Also, the Satellaview is effectively impossible to emulate. 03:02:05 * elliott listens to Shnabubula's performance of All Blues. 03:02:12 (due to having been unusable for years now) 03:02:17 Wondrful. 03:02:40 http://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sync.jpg 03:02:49 SR 03:02:52 Y TOO BUSY LISTENING TO JAZZ 03:02:54 on the left is a computer 03:03:10 notice huge ribbon cable connecting it to keyboard 03:03:11 the fairlight cmi is insane isn't it 03:03:12 Well, if you have a TARDIs it'd be easy. 03:03:16 TARDIS, rather. 03:03:20 Tards. 03:03:21 Turds. 03:03:23 TURDIS. 03:03:35 In which case you could even get a *dump* of all of the games for it. 03:03:38 http://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/fmsynth.jpg THREE DEE! 03:03:42 (which is likewise impossible) 03:03:54 elliott: meh, the fairlight ain't so hot 03:03:59 pikhq: what games don't exist any more? 03:04:46 elliott: The games were downloaded via satellite and stored on a flash cart. 03:05:06 pikhq: heh 03:05:18 A dump can *only* exist if someone happened to keep it from when it was broadcast. 03:05:35 Also, some of the games actually had voice acting via *live broadcast*. 03:05:45 I have a different kind of emulation idea. You have in the emulator, emulation of various processors, video units, audio units, input units. etc. And then the file it loads indicates which ones are used and what memory mapping and a few other options. 03:05:46 Despite a slow system clock the processor was extremely efficient at moving data around (a one cycle multiply/divide math's co-processor being very advanced for the time) so efficient in fact, that NASA used the computer on board space craft resulting in the processor being classed as classified computer equipment, not to be sold to countries outside the COCAM agreement and no technical details to be distributed outside of the United Sta 03:05:47 tes. NED also developed their own Operating System, Scientific XP/L, again bypassing limitations of available Operating Systems. So with this dedicated processor it was possible to add new hardware as and when it became available, in some cases the additions enhancing the processor by sharing the workload with it. 03:05:57 if that's not worthy of emulation what is 03:05:58 zzo38: bsnes does this. 03:06:09 03:05 pikhq: Also, some of the games actually had voice acting via *live broadcast*. 03:06:12 zzo38: Well, except it only handles the SNES, but hey. 03:06:12 that is amazing. 03:06:15 zzo38: yeah, bsnes does that. 03:06:34 cheater99: http://ns2.opencollective.cc/music/Shnabubula/All+Blues+(VRC6)/ 03:06:38 STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND LISTEN TO THIS 03:06:40 maybe three times 03:06:41 or four 03:06:55 404 Error: Page Not Found 03:06:55 Sorry, we are unable to find the page you've requested. If you've typed the URL yourself, check for any spelling mistakes you might have made. If you've followed a broken link, bla bla bla. Please click back or visit our homepage at 8bc.org. 03:06:59 what 03:07:03 elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Satellaview_broadcasts If it has SoundLink support, it's literally impossible to reproduce the game without a time machine. 03:07:05 oh, bad cp 03:07:11 cheater99: http://8bc.org/music/Shnabubula/All+Blues+(VRC6)/ 03:07:13 there, better now 03:07:24 Even *if* you have the ROM. 03:07:30 miles davis would have approved 03:07:44 elliott: yea it's good 03:07:57 cheater99: have you heard it before or did you make that judgement based on three seconds :-P 03:08:02 I am thinking something a bit different. A more general form. And the loaded file, instead of the ROM file, is a collection file. You then convert it for the official or homebrew game or whatever you run. 03:08:13 elliott: yes 03:08:18 cheater99: which 03:08:38 i heard it before in the normal form.. and i made that judgement based on three seconds 03:08:39 :D 03:09:09 elliott: do you know of the midibox sid? 03:09:27 no, but it's probably worse than e.g. the hardsid. 03:09:32 nope 03:09:35 it's much better 03:09:42 cheater99: What is a midibox sid? 03:09:44 cheater99: what, than the studio edition? 03:09:49 cheater99: http://www.hardsid.com/hardsid_4u.php 03:09:54 I doubt /that/ 03:09:57 it has the best update rate for the sid 03:10:03 cheater99: see above link 03:10:12 cheater99: 8 khz isn't so bad. :p 03:10:23 8 khz is weak 03:10:28 you're weak. 03:10:31 and it has a full user interface 03:10:41 as opposed to hardsid being a non-interactive box 03:10:44 just buy a c64 and wire up data ports to it, it's the only way to get the real sound 03:10:47 where you point and click and go to sleep 03:11:13 # Microsoft Vista compatible 03:11:16 great 03:11:26 i'll use it with my vista! 03:11:28 marketing. 03:11:29 that i don't have. 03:11:36 yeah, shows who they make it for 03:11:37 :p 03:11:54 the midibox sid is compatible with any operating system that can access a UART 03:12:01 can't beat that 03:12:16 and has OSC 03:12:30 cheater99: the UART is just the politically correct version of the LART. 03:12:33 so it is also compatible with any operating system that can somehow communicate with ethernet 03:13:04 LART is a single-board computer (SBC) designed by staff of the University of Delft/Netherlands. The creators advertise complete layout by means of CAD files ... 03:13:08 emulate that! 03:13:20 anyways, the midibox sid is cool 03:13:24 cooler than cakes 03:13:52 and i hung out with the guy who made it at his flat :p we did a rock-out nite with some other dudes 03:14:20 Do you think 31 character for each original and destination word forms is enough for plural making rules? 03:14:56 not if you're talking about airplanes 03:15:14 *airplanae 03:15:18 (remember that volcano?) 03:15:18 *aeroplanae 03:15:30 aeaeroplaenae 03:15:37 elliott: What about airplanes? 03:15:51 cheater99: What does this have to do with airplanes? 03:16:04 æroplænæ 03:16:08 there was a volcano with a long name obscuring flights lately 03:17:06 æρplænæ 03:17:57 elliott: i was right 03:18:03 what 03:18:04 (it's good) 03:18:15 what an achievement 03:18:44 i kno rite 03:19:00 now i want to hear freddie freeloader done like this 03:19:07 cheater99: http://kindofbloop.com/ 03:19:11 cheater99: it's from a whole remake of the album 03:19:12 enjoy 03:19:13 $5 03:19:22 pirating it works but it's kind of a dick since the royalties cost $$$$loads 03:19:28 is $5 some sort of memory address? 03:19:29 brought to you by http://waxy.org/ 03:19:32 cheater99: it's a price. 03:19:44 http://kindofbloop.com/samples/02_freddie_freeloader_sample.mp3 :p 03:20:22 how is flac formed? 03:20:28 ærœplænə 03:20:34 "Kind of Bloop is available for digital download in high-quality MP3 and FLAC format for $5.00, cheap." 03:20:37 cheater99: it's just the sample /shrug 03:20:44 i remember when it was still in Kickstarter phase 03:20:47 elliott: i know, but i need the flac 03:20:49 the royalties cost ridiculous amounts 03:20:55 cheater99: for the _30 second preview_? 03:20:55 haha 03:21:01 cheater99: the All Blues you listened to was mp3. 03:21:02 elliott: of course not 03:21:06 so buy it :P 03:21:14 elliott: they should've made it free 03:21:21 suddenly, no royalties! 03:21:23 cheater99: impossible, with the costs 03:21:24 cheater99: nope 03:21:26 not true 03:21:30 how so 03:21:38 find the blog posts yourself, i'm too lazy 03:21:44 and, wait 03:21:47 what royalties? 03:21:51 it's a new performance 03:21:58 i don't remember exactly. it's stupid music industry bullshit 03:22:00 this is the kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/waxpancake/kind-of-bloop-an-8-bit-tribute-to-miles-davis 03:22:05 you can't own/copyright/patent a MELODY 03:22:07 To create this album, I hope to raise $2,000 to pay royalties, pay the artists, and print CDs. Legally releasing cover songs requires paying mechanical licenses to the song publishers through the Harry Fox Agency, totaling about $420 for every 250 downloads and a $75 processing fee. I'll be using the remainder to print a very limited run of CDs for Kickstarter backers, and split the rest evenly among the five musicians for their pains 03:22:07 taking work. (This is a labor of love for me, so I won't be keeping a dime.) 03:22:08 cheater99: ^ 03:22:09 cheater99: BTW, that was Eyjafjallajökull. 03:22:21 hence, any new performance is a new thing. 03:22:23 cheater99: ^ 03:22:33 cheater99: your opinions are irrelevant in the face of what is actually the case. 03:23:25 * Sgeo hopes that what cheater99 said is true 03:23:25 hm 03:23:33 i'm not fully sure on the legal aspect of this 03:23:37 Sgeo: it is, as demonstrated by my quote, false. 03:23:42 copyright law is fucked up, that is obvious and irrelevant. 03:23:44 If not, I've participated in copyright infringement, as so has AWLD 03:23:45 Odd word construction courtesy of being a fairly conservative North Germanic language. 03:23:47 what is relevant is what is the actual case 03:23:55 Sgeo: OH GOD COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 03:23:56 but i think there's some confusion in that post. 03:23:56 FEEL BAD 03:23:57 FEEL EVIL 03:23:58 YOU ARE THE WORST 03:24:04 cheater99: well, i don't. 03:24:12 elliott, companies should be more careful than individuals 03:24:26 cheater99: andy baio /has/ been at this for _rather_ a long time 03:24:27 elliott: that's ok, since we have separate consciousnae 03:24:43 and can think opposite thoughts. 03:25:08 cheater99: face it, even if it is the case, legally, the agency could sue him off the face of the earth 03:25:10 lawyer costs etc 03:25:55 GAMESTATE RECALCULATION 03:26:38 elliott: i still think eniac in minecraft is yet to be done 03:26:50 that freddie freeloader sample is not interesting at all i fear 03:26:58 it sounds fairly... simple. 03:27:03 Did John Cage use any dynamics in his 4'33" music? 03:27:11 cheater99: 30 seconds != however long freddy freeloader is 03:27:32 cheater99: just checked. you heard a whopping 5% of the track. 03:27:38 yes, but the original had much more depth and wasn't full of shitty little kiddie arpeggios that made no sense 03:27:53 Sounds fine to me. 03:28:07 the other track we have listened had translated the depth much better 03:28:12 It doesn't have to be a 1:1 replica. 03:28:26 Depth is a vague and subjective concept; it seems you are just trying to belittle it without actually making any arguments that it's an inferior work. 03:28:29 no, but 1:00000000000000000000000.1 isn't good either 03:28:38 cheater99: you mean 1:0.1? 03:28:42 not sure why you bothered with those 0s. 03:28:56 Maybe he means s/1:0/1:10/ ? 03:29:07 I doubt it. 03:29:12 Probably 0.0[...]1 03:29:14 it's a subconscious tactic of showing my perceived worth 03:29:24 of that piece of music. 03:29:34 notice very many zeros 03:29:40 Or s/0(0*)\./0.$1/ ? 03:29:41 and one tiny tiny digit one 03:29:59 that... is ridiculous 03:30:03 1:0.000000000000000000001 sure 03:30:05 so as far as in the light of law i only said it's worth only 10 times less 03:30:09 but 1:00000000000000.1 is exactly 0:.1. 03:30:18 your subconscious knows, i really mean zero. 03:30:24 you are full of shit. 03:30:25 YES 03:30:30 that's why i tricked you 03:30:40 cheater99: anyway it's rather pretentious to listen to an entire 11 minute work and then say that a 30 second sample of a 10 minute work is inferior. 03:30:42 because it's exactly 0.1 03:30:45 you have to listen to the entire thing to make that kind of judgement. 03:31:02 elliott: i think being pretentious is what makes us human 03:31:13 you say that only because you are pretentious. 03:31:27 would it be pretentious of me to admit? 03:31:48 i'm not saying the rest of the song must be bad 03:32:05 i'm just saying: the part i heard wasn't translated as well as comparable parts in the other song 03:32:31 now if i had a flac edition of the whole album, that might change my perception completely 03:33:11 seeing as i don't... i'll probably never see the light on the topic of how good the adaptation really is 03:33:58 pikhq: I'm going to cycle-perfectly emulate YOUR CURRENT COMPUTER. 03:34:00 Here is the program: 03:34:05 Run it and it shall be perfect. 03:34:14 cheater99: You could just, you know, spend $5. 03:34:45 that includes a lot of assumptions 03:35:03 that are not true not accordingly to my will or ability 03:35:15 cheater99: Such as? 03:35:16 How do you cite this article? http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Plurals.html I see nothing about a journal or book it is published in. Do you know what journal or book it belongs to? 03:35:30 zzo38: Interestingly, people publish work without it being inside a journal or a book. 03:35:35 zzo38: In this case, it is a "web page". 03:35:37 i don't have a reliable repeatable way of doing the spending 03:35:44 cheater99: does it need to be repeatable? 03:35:50 yes 03:35:57 cheater99: Are you planning on buying the album numerous times? 03:36:12 no, but it needs to because there are other things such that those things are of value $5 03:36:30 cheater99: You're not being pretentious now, just stupid. 03:36:43 i'm just saying i need to be able to buy breakfast too 03:36:52 elliott: Then how can it be cited in the bibliography? 03:36:57 zzo38: However you want. 03:37:07 cheater99: Are you currently out of $5 each time you buy breakfast? 03:37:08 zzo38: look how wikipedia does it!!!! 03:37:14 no, don't 03:37:20 when in doubt, if wikipedia does something, do the opposite 03:37:29 elliott: no, because sometimes i don't buy breakfast 03:37:39 cheater99: but breakfast is a great thing. 03:37:54 elliott: for those who have a repeatable source of $5's 03:38:10 cheater99: Does a repeatable source of $5s not fund your internet? BREAKFAST OR INTERNET: THE SHOWDOWN 03:38:19 pikhq: http://board.byuu.org/images/challenge.jpg BYUU'S FORUM WANTS ME TO DO SIMPLE ALGEBRA AT 3:37 AM WHY DOES HE HATE ME 03:38:20 internets are free 03:38:29 * elliott expert wolfram alpha 03:38:30 cheater99: orly 03:38:34 my $5s are not available during this month or two 03:39:04 Should I include the name of the university in the citation? 03:39:29 if it's a university website 03:39:33 zzo38: I wouldn't. 03:39:36 It's his work, not the uni's. 03:39:58 yeah, if it's a private website don't 03:40:11 But the name of the university is listed at the top of the article. (I already put Damian Conway's name in the citation) 03:40:17 It's a private website that happens to be hosted on a university. :p 03:40:23 zzo38: Yeah, but that's standard practice in "papers" of any sort. 03:40:31 zzo38: No harm in crediting, I suppose, but I think it's purely his work. 03:40:42 Don't bibliography citations usually list the publisher though? 03:40:46 miscrediting citations can be big beef 03:40:49 zzo38: The publisher is himself in this case. 03:40:53 He put the file there. 03:40:55 you don't want to credit someone's work to something else 03:41:04 OK. Then I will just put his name, the title, and the URL. 03:41:05 zzo38: Is the TeXnicard source available? 03:41:08 An Algorithmic Approach to English Pluralization 03:41:08 Damian Conway 03:41:08 School of Computer Science and Software Engineering 03:41:08 Monash University 03:41:08 Clayton 3168, Australia 03:41:13 this is just his contact info, that's all 03:41:19 yeah 03:41:20 zzo38: agreed 03:41:23 the author is the second line 03:41:52 now if it was: 03:42:01 Damian Conway, Evil Overlord 03:42:02 elliott: Yes, so far only incomplete versions on sprunge, but eventually it will be available properly when version 0.1 is complete enough to publish in this way. 03:42:03 An Algorithmic Approach to English Pluralization 03:42:03 University of Buckdoodle, Damian Conway 03:42:04 you'd have to credit that part too 03:42:08 cheater99: finished your sentence for you 03:42:11 then you'd credit the university 03:42:18 cheater99: or even "Damian Conway, University of Nowhere" 03:42:24 zzo38: Can I see the current version, please? 03:42:37 elliott: OK. Just a minute... 03:42:51 elliott: why thank you, that was very nice of you to finish that sentence 03:43:07 this means i can now go to sleep, and you can continue saying things i would say 03:43:51 Hi I'm cheater99 and I kill puppies for fun 03:43:59 and profit 03:44:03 elliott: http://sprunge.us/TKVI 03:44:29 elliott: Any comments to make about it? 03:44:43 let me skim it first :) 03:44:43 those dalmatians will make for a BEAUTIFUL fur!! mwahahahahah! 03:45:07 ok, now i'm off to dream about uranusgirl and silver head 03:46:26 thank you and good night 03:47:08 lol uranusgirl 03:48:48 pikhq: How likely is it that anyone can convince byuu to never use XML again. 03:49:14 elliott: Not very. He wrote a very simple XML parser. 03:49:23 pikhq: But WRONGNESS. 03:49:47 Aside from only handling UTF-8 instead of UTF-8 and UTF-16, it seems to be a correct implementation of *just* XML. 03:50:33 Shame, though, that he couldn't be convinced to use a better scheme instead. 03:50:40 Do you also want to see the current (incomplete) version of the file "plain.cards" (Plain TeXnicard), "texnicard_format.tex" (TeX format file for Plain TeXnicard), or "system_book_conv" (AWK program to compile a book describing the other two files)? 03:51:44 zzo38: plain.cards 03:52:20 elliott: http://sprunge.us/UCBc 03:52:26 thanks 03:53:15 pikhq: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98753-Ultra-Rare-NES-Cartridge-Sells-for-41-000 03:54:25 pikhq: Apparently it'd been dumped before though X-D 03:54:38 [[So ok, I guess this isn't some avid gamer desperately wanting to play the game (the game has been dumped afaik and a NES console + flash cart and/or PC capable of running Nestopia would cost a lot less). 03:54:38 So the most likely reason anyone would buy at that price is because they hope to resell it even higher in a decade or so. At least that's the only "sane" reason I could find. So it's basically game speculation. That or the person(s) who bought this are billionaires and like to waste their money for shits and giggles.]] 03:56:39 elliott: Or it's a collector of some sort. 03:56:49 pikhq: A crazy collector :P 03:56:55 Well, yes. 03:57:04 pikhq: Shit, I'm tempted to get a box professionally printed and sealed now. 03:57:05 You'd have to be if you want, say, the entire NES set. 03:57:31 pikhq: Put a dumped cartridge inside (with professional label etc.), age the box slightly, get it professionally sealed... $41k is mine. 03:57:39 Or the entire US SNES set, like Byuu does. 03:58:48 So crazy. 04:06:19 pikhq: http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=838 Dear god @ during. 04:06:29 Any comment about the TeXnicard files, yet? 04:06:35 zzo38: No. seems good 04:08:58 "Sometimes I wish I had focused on the Sega Genesis instead. They only have one special chip, which was only used by one game :/" 04:09:01 TARGET MARKET 04:09:27 elliott: The Genesis had more than one special chip, they just got released as seperate consoles. :P 04:09:35 Sega CD and 32X. 04:10:16 [[I think it is our very own AamirM who made Regen, which basically what could be called "bgen" (as in, an accuracy focused Genesis/Mega Drive emulator).]] 04:10:17 SHEESH 04:10:18 furrfu 04:10:19 And arguably the Genesis *was* a "special chip" for the Master System. 04:11:08 Do you have any suggestions and/or questions about TeXnicard? (Or about related things?) 04:11:10 AamirM is also working on an N64 emulator. 04:11:34 "And yes, N64 emulation is rather poor and most N64 emulation projects are no longer active. If I had the skills, I'd give it a shot myself, but I'm afraid it's out of my reach. Anyone up for a team effort?" — guess that's happening then. 04:11:36 Except not team. 04:11:40 Anyway, good night. 04:11:42 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:12:13 -!- elliott has joined. 04:12:19 I should get a list of all unregistered one-char domains some time. 04:12:23 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:14:08 elliott: Including unicode or not? 04:14:34 [Oops] 04:15:47 erm - one character domain names that are not registered == roughly all of them 04:15:52 except for two 04:16:00 they stopped registering them 04:17:08 x.org and q.com IIRC 04:17:33 meh - google tells me I'm wrong - there exist 5 04:18:19 variable: Do you have any opinions about TeXnicard? 04:18:40 variable: Also, can they register unicode one character domain names? 04:19:45 TeXnicard? 04:20:32 zzo38, unicode domain names are mapped to punycode 04:20:47 so there are no such thing as "single letter" unicode names 04:40:11 variable: I know that unicode domain names are mapped to punycode. But is there punycode name that represents a single unicode character which are registered? 04:40:22 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:40:48 zzo38, as far as I am aware - yes 04:41:04 And, TeXnicard is,,, you can see the files: http://sprunge.us/TKVI http://sprunge.us/UCBc 04:43:27 GPLv3 :-( ah - its designed to create playing cards? 04:43:59 Yes it is designed to create playing cards. 04:44:20 Is there anything you do not like about GPLv3? 04:45:19 its less free than in it could be and restricts commercial modification (and often therefore support) of the code 04:46:03 How does it restrict commercial modification? 04:46:06 I'll have to play around with the code tomorrow to see what kind of cards I could create :-} 04:46:17 variable: It is incomplete. You cannot create any cards yet. 04:46:32 But you can make opinion of what I have so far. 04:47:43 if a company wants to base a product around the source code - for example MacOS/FreeBSD 04:48:01 they would have to release the source code - which means that they would probably not want to use that project 04:48:12 which means one less contributor (usually) 04:48:37 b) the GPL lies about freedom - making it seem that its a binary thing "either your free or your not" 04:48:50 variable: a) That is the whole *point* of the GPL. 04:49:01 variable: b) How does the GPL do that? 04:49:03 That is the intention. That if someone wants to make something they have to give everyone else same permissions 04:49:11 c) its well documented 04:49:15 re the project 04:49:22 so I'll look at it tomorrow 04:49:35 pikhq, a) which is its weakness - I prefer copyfree licences 04:49:59 b) the GPL claims that it "is free" which makes no sense 04:50:46 zzo38, it is better to allow everyone to use the code - and encourage people to give back instead of force people to give everything which may scare people away 04:51:07 However, it is OK if someone wants to make private modifications for their own use in their company to make cards with it. The GPL does not prevent that. 04:51:34 zzo38, as soon as they distribute it they must provide all the source code 04:51:41 which means they likely won't use it 04:51:50 and thus not help you if they fix anything 04:52:03 variable: This is a fallacious argument. 04:52:09 pikhq, how so? 04:52:18 variable: *Plenty* of companies make use of GPL software and make contributions to it. 04:52:30 pikhq, yes - but plenty more avoid it like the plague 04:52:44 Yes, because of a lack of understanding of how it works. 04:53:00 pikhq, or because it would ruin their business model 04:53:11 if they were BSD licensed there is nothing stopping anyone from contributing in the same way as the GPL 04:53:12 There's a common thought that by using GPL licensed software, you need to release *all source code ever*. 04:53:15 Which is patently false. 04:53:30 pikhq, you must release all source code that is a derivative work 04:53:35 Why yes. 04:53:44 And with the BSD license you don't need to. 04:53:53 And with most software licenses *you can't make derivative works*. 04:53:57 pikhq, so imagine if apple were forced to release *all* of their source code 04:54:04 (ie if FreeBSD were GPLed) 04:54:21 with the BSD licence you are allowed to 04:54:24 Actually, Apple releases the code for everything from BSD... 04:54:29 pikhq, I know 04:54:43 If a company wants to use it to produce their own cards, they do not need to release the source code to the program. The cards are just output. (Actually, I don't know if "plain.cards" changes this? If so, I should add an exception in the "plain.cards" file to ensure you are allowed to produce proprietary cards with this program) 04:54:44 And uses quite a bit of GPL software. 04:54:50 (GCC, WebKit, etc._) 04:54:53 but if it were GPL it would be required to release all of the OS code - not just the kernel parts 04:55:01 No. 04:55:08 Just all the derivative works. 04:55:15 Which they do even when not obligated to. 04:55:24 pikhq, and since linking with inner interfaces could be considered a deriv. work 04:55:37 BTW, merely executing *on* an OS does not a derivative work make. 04:55:49 pikhq, yes, I'm aware 04:55:54 If FreeBSD were GPL, it would change hardly *any* of Apple's behavior at all. 04:56:03 Because they comply already. 04:56:08 pikhq, not at all 04:56:11 By choice. 04:56:32 pikhq, they would be forced to release any and all code that is a deriv. of the FreeBSD work 04:56:40 and would include a large majority of the OS 04:56:45 variable: Funny, they have. 04:56:45 instead of just the darwin kernel 04:57:06 Does "plain.cards" and "texnicard_format.tex" need a exception similar to the font exception? 04:57:29 The only things in OS X without source code available are, in essence, things that support their UI. 04:58:26 Cocoa, Carbon, and the like. 04:58:28 pikhq: Do you know enough about the GPL to know whether or not this exception would be needed? 04:59:26 zzo38: Uh, I think it would need almost precisely the font exception. 04:59:28 pikhq, which in theory could be considered a deriv work 04:59:35 variable: It isn't. 04:59:44 variable: Speaking as someone who has actually read copyright law, it isn't. 05:00:03 zzo38, I think it would require the font exception -- or just use a license that doesn't restrict distribution 05:00:03 Not even remotely. 05:00:31 pikhq, speaking as someone who has read the licence, read copyright law, worked for a copyright attorney, and has two patents.... 05:00:48 And somehow you still don't seem to understand what a derivative work is. 05:00:55 Congrats! 05:01:05 now that the ad hominem is away 05:01:11 pikhq, you seem to not understand 05:01:13 congrats 05:01:24 the GPL defines it in a specific way 05:01:45 Okay, true, the GPLv3 doesn't even use the term "derivative work", it uses something different... 05:02:03 Lesseee. 05:02:07 -!- zeotrope has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 05:02:16 pikhq, the basic idea is that interfacing using "private" methods results in a derivative work nearly always 05:02:48 Of course, "implementation of POSIX" (which is essentially all that OS X gets from the BSDs) is not exactly "private". 05:02:49 pikhq, my point is lets say that what your saying is true 05:03:11 pikhq,and that apple completely complies with the gpl (pretending freebsd was gpl) 05:04:04 the 2-BSD license still results in fewer restrictions than the GPL (and public domain even fewer - but its not legally possible to put something in the public domain) 05:04:21 and there is nothing stopping companies from contributing 05:04:35 ... Yessss, and? 05:04:58 pikhq: But "texnicard.w" should not need the font exception, because to that program, the file "plain.cards" is just data, and "texnicard_format.tex" is data to TeX, and these two files are linked. Am I correct? 05:05:06 Can you really call a modification that nobody else can access "contribution", or even "behavior that ought to be encouraged". 05:05:19 pikhq, wow - you completely misunderstand 05:05:34 zzo38: Hmm. Well. Is any of Texnicard actually going to be output in the resulting .dvi? 05:05:38 variable: How so? 05:07:20 pikhq: No. (Also, the .dvi is not even the final result; the final result are picture files such as .png and so on.) 05:07:26 pikhq, company X decided to make a project. they look for some base to start on. they find G (GPLed) and B (BSDed). They choose to go with B because of its more free licences. They make a product and sell it. they contribute 20% of that code back to B. Now B gets something and G gets nothing. lets pretend B didn't exist and X wanted to have a viable business model. so they decide to write it on their own and not use G. so now G still 05:07:26 gets nothing. 05:07:53 variable: Has this even once happened? 05:08:00 zzo38, re comments on the actual project instead of the license: I'll look at it tomorrow. 05:08:21 Hrm. Actually, no, pretty sure it has. LLVM. 05:08:23 Never mind. 05:08:33 pikhq, yes all the time. most commercial organizations have "copyright training" where they teach you to avoid the gpl 05:08:40 variable: OK. You can look at it tomorrow. (Just remember it is currently incomplete. It does compile and run; but it is incomplete.) 05:08:45 "Bullshit training", you mean. 05:09:15 pikhq, I use the term the companies use. 05:09:28 I use a term that accurately describes it. 05:09:51 Of course, all this comes courtesy of a few simple things... 05:10:01 pikhq, tbh in the end it hardly matters - I just like to get the code out. I dislike spending much time on license debates 05:10:08 *hardly matters to me 05:10:11 Namely: copyright law is far too complex, and it's completely and utterly pointless in the modern day. 05:10:21 Not to mention counterproductive. 05:10:51 pikhq, agreed with the specific reference to software copyright. not saying I disagree about other things - but I don't have the energy right now to discuss :-} 05:11:13 variable: In general, though, it's *certainly* far far too complex, you must agree. 05:11:19 pikhq, yes 05:11:26 "not saying I disagree about other things' 05:11:36 its 1211 am now 05:11:36 Yuh. 05:11:43 I wanted to be asleep 1130 05:11:45 :-} 05:12:18 pikhq, copyright law is insanely complex - and imho outlived its usefulness for certain things 05:12:24 but I really need to get to sleep 05:12:32 お休み！ 05:12:41 !? 05:12:45 Good night! 05:12:58 good night - I enjoyed this conversation 05:13:02 /away 05:17:59 There are a few files in TeXnicard which are public domain, such as "system_book_conv", which is not actually needed to run TeXnicard; what it does is to make book from "plain.cards" and "texnicard_format.tex" files. 05:20:16 Is the extra restriction on the use of the name of TeXnicard is valid? 05:20:39 -!- j-invariant has joined. 05:29:09 -!- Iwnda0 has joined. 05:34:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:43:55 -!- Iwnda0 has left (?). 06:15:39 http://keiapl.info/archive/APLblossom.mp3 06:41:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAX0gJt-aZg fuckin LOL 06:46:23 j-invariant: i have java gtfo >| 06:46:36 hate** 06:46:44 java goes JING JING 06:51:53 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:02:56 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:10:34 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:14:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:17:06 -!- augur has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:33:01 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:34:51 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:44:48 -!- Sasha has quit (*.net *.split). 08:44:51 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 08:44:53 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:06 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:37 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:54 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:03 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:05 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:13 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:31 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:31 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:39 how come adults can't spell "a lot"? 08:46:41 Do you come across "alot' alot? 08:46:43 more often thannot. 08:48:14 -!- variable has joined. 08:48:14 -!- Leonidas has joined. 08:49:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:49:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:49:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:49:31 -!- Zuu has joined. 08:49:31 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 08:49:31 -!- Ilari has joined. 08:50:13 -!- Sasha has joined. 08:50:13 -!- jix has joined. 08:50:13 -!- quintopia has joined. 08:50:13 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:27:32 j-invariant: For what reason do certain English-speaking adults insist on conforming to and uplifting a certain subset of the prescribed rules of correct English grammar, but still ignore others? Perhaps because English is a living language, and if an entire generation starts spelling "a lot" as "alot", then the correct spelling is "alot". 09:28:44 j-invariant: adults can spell "a lot" perfectly fine 09:29:02 the problem is that "a lot" is a thing you park your car in 09:29:50 "a lot" ~ "alot" as a quantificational element is a single word, not two, in modern english. 09:30:22 so would writing "alot" be an improvement? 09:30:25 furthermore, orthography is purely conventional, and as gregor points out, the current convention in colloquial written english is that the space is entirely optional 09:30:46 in many ways, "a lot" is going the same way as "up on" 09:30:57 woah did this actually happen 09:31:03 and so many other such words in english 09:31:14 do you know any book or whatever that talks about this? 09:31:17 "through out", "none the less", "not with standing" etc etc 09:31:25 "Did this actually happen" // English has no regulatory body, it's happening because people are just doing it. 09:31:29 j-invariant: any good book on descriptive linguistics. 09:31:38 Gregor: even if english DId have a regulatory body, it wouldnt matter 09:31:46 augur: Fair point :) 09:31:49 augur: are there any good ones for a beginner wyouwould recommend? 09:31:52 languages are the original grassroots technology 09:31:54 augur: But thank Jebus it doesn't ;) 09:32:10 j-invariant: for orthography, no, but for language in general, sure 09:32:15 yes 09:32:31 j-invariant: for language in general, check out guy deutscher's the unfolding of language 09:33:27 "above" is the result of successive de-prepositionalizations from "on by up on" (only from back when they were said and spelled "an be uf an" 09:34:11 j-invariant: the moral of that book is that language is a constant tension between expressiveness and conciseness 09:34:55 concision drives us to eliminate parts of the language that don't have any function (in that they don't make the language any more usable) 09:35:30 expressivity drives us to invent new constructs when the language has no technique for conveying quite what we want to convey 09:35:53 so theres a tension between reduction and expansion of the language, and it happens all the time 09:36:28 have any new constructs come up in recorded history? 09:36:42 every day 09:36:56 every new thing you hate is a new construct that might be standard a hundred years from now 09:37:12 usually its new words, since words are for some reason incredibly easy to invent 09:37:17 and usually its certain kinds of words 09:37:30 tho it varies by language which words are so freely invented 09:37:46 what baout a new "thing" like verb/noun/etc 09:37:50 grammatical constructs are harder to change 09:37:58 verbs and nouns are the easiest words to invent 09:38:10 adjectives and adverbs probably next 09:38:11 no I mean like verb/noun/quux 09:38:21 oh, you mean a new category? 09:38:24 yeah 09:38:42 theres debate over whether categories are real in any sense 09:38:54 ah that makes senese 09:38:56 but in general we only see a small number of categories 09:39:40 i mean, most contemporary theories place no real restriction on the number of categories, and we dont have any principled way to explain why we dont see the full range of possibilities 09:40:30 which is to say, there seem to be restrictions, but we dont know what they are beyond some very rough outlines in the theoretically possible category landscape 09:59:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:00:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:02:51 * Sgeo gets desparate 10:02:55 desperate 10:14:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:16:41 augur, are there any languages with more/different categories than English? 10:18:08 Vorpal: maybe 10:18:23 but there generally seems to be a fairly fixed inventory that all languages draw from 10:20:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:20:37 why does my printer only ever decide to take two pages at a time when doing double sided printing. And only in the second "pass" too!? 10:20:45 it never ever do that otherwise 10:20:49 does* 10:27:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:29:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:39:24 -!- WAR has joined. 10:41:47 -!- WAR has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 10:41:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 10:41:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:43:35 Phantom_Hoover, why does the Minecraft window not capture the mouse? 10:43:57 Sgeo_, it does for me. 10:44:15 Is there maybe a bug in the older version that I.. obtained? 10:44:48 Possibly, or it could be something else; if you're not on Windows, we can't help. 10:45:11 I am on Windows 10:45:18 ...trying it before I buy it, so to speak 10:45:31 I am happy to state that the issues I was having in Classic do NOT occur in Alpha 11:03:40 FWIW, if you actually buy it and you want to use mcmap, you'll need to switch to Linux. 11:04:03 Once I buy it, I intend to mostly play on online servers 11:04:32 F11 helps the mouse not be captured, but I don't want to have to go to fullscreen 11:04:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:10:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:16:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:37:17 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:40:39 -!- augur has joined. 11:43:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:44:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:54:10 -!- augur has changed nick to TheDoctor. 11:54:21 -!- TheDoctor has changed nick to augur. 12:02:27 augur, wha? 12:02:34 hey what 12:08:24 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:09:34 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 12:17:39 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:18:04 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:21:14 augur, why did you change your name to TheDoctor and then back again? 12:23:12 -!- Deewiant has joined. 12:24:32 Phantom_Hoover: name antics in another channel 12:24:47 augur, HMMMMMMMMM 12:28:40 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 12:31:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:35:04 Sgeo's dad is periodically rebooting his computer for lulz. 12:41:17 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:44:39 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:51:43 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function. 12:55:59 how is obsidian made? 12:56:11 nooga, water poured onto /still/ lava. 12:56:18 Flowing lava becomes cobblestone. 13:13:00 HAHA' I'VE GOT 5 OBSIDIANS 13:14:37 you mean: how is obsiddian formed 13:15:36 HT 13:15:42 hm 13:15:47 there's lava on obsidian 13:17:57 Phantom_Hoover: what about f x = 2*x 13:18:14 cheater99, that's why I said a -> a. 13:18:25 for any type? 13:18:28 hm 13:18:29 As in, a polymorphic function with no typeclass constraints. 13:19:03 You can demonstrate that id is the only one possible if you let a be the unit type, but it's extending that upwards that I'm having problems with. 13:19:09 of course you can have polymorphic fall-over 13:19:18 in which case your question is easily answered 13:19:49 -!- j-invariant has joined. 13:21:43 Phantom_Hoover: 13:21:57 j-invariant: 13:21:59 in Haskell or SysF ? 13:22:45 -!- sftp has joined. 13:22:55 Erm. Is there a difference in the answer? 13:23:03 well I just mean "in what" 13:26:49 System F, then. 13:27:57 Phantom_Hoover: in that case, it is a (difficult) theorem that every well typed term has a normal form (i.e. you can evaluate everything and it wont loop) 13:28:34 I think it's plausible to enumerate all (one) normal forms of type forall a. a -> a 13:28:56 And in Haskell? 13:28:57 so like \a -> a counts but (\a -> a) (\a -> a) doesn't 13:29:36 undefined :: a -> a is a counterexample 13:34:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:36:47 Phantom_Hoover: you don't buy it?? 13:36:59 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:37:05 Phantom_Hoover: have you seen any proof that simple typed lambda calculus normalizes 13:40:24 # [...]. From reading these comments, it is clear that 13:40:24 # text following a '#' is ignored to the end of the line. 13:40:33 from the top of a config file :D 13:40:40 nice way to put it 13:42:15 :( 13:46:43 j-invariant, zuh. 13:47:16 Erm, OK. Pretending undefined doesn't work? 13:47:24 *exist 13:48:15 Oh, wait. I see what you mean. 14:00:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:01:07 oerjan, hi 14:01:13 hello 14:02:14 elliott: for log reading: I tried that newer version of synergy thingy. Same old bugs: 1) clipboard buggy in various ways 2) altgr key sometimes get stuck when on guest screen. 14:02:29 both still there 14:04:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:04:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:05:35 elliott: there is possibly one bug that is gone, but it is so rare I can't be sure yet. (Caps lock getting suck in different states compared to keyboard led, and different states on the different computers) 14:05:57 that happened like twice in 6 months 14:06:02 -!- elliott has joined. 14:06:43 20:15:47 erm - one character domain names that are not registered == roughly all of them 14:06:53 variable: no, that you can actually register -- there are 100 or so 14:06:56 most are reserved or registered 14:07:44 elliott: know anything about LaRouche youth movement? 14:08:16 j-invariant: LaRouch people are all complete nutcases, as far as i can tell. it is interesting but i have not looked in to it as much as i would like to 14:08:23 j-invariant: why? 14:08:36 yeah that's where I am 14:08:42 I thought you might know more :P 14:08:57 j-invariant: nope :) but wikipedia does! 14:09:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche_and_the_LaRouche_movement 14:09:28 elliott, I believe 1 or 2 letter ones can no longer be registered. Not sure if it was some tlds only, or all. The existing ones were grandfathered. 14:09:40 Vorpal: only some TLDs. 14:09:45 right 14:09:47 Vorpal: you _definitely_ can register them. i looked into thix 14:09:55 elliott, god, I love the LaRouche movement. 14:10:18 They say that the 340Hz A is part of the conspiracy. 14:10:18 Vorpal: for instance I believe that nic.st will sell you a one-char if you give them insane amounts of money 14:10:22 Phantom_Hoover: :D 14:10:26 j-invariant: info! ^ 14:10:51 Er, *440Hz 14:10:56 tell me! 14:11:01 Vorpal: hopefully I will be able to script looking up all the domains to see which ones are free and registerable, filter out those with unreasonable laws (*cough* .ly must follow sharia law *cough*), and then filter out those with insane prices 14:11:15 elliott, anyway, as I said in log. the new synergy thingy did not help at all 14:11:20 ha. 14:11:20 I don't know more about it than that, just that they want to go back to 432Hz A tuning. 14:11:21 *ah. 14:11:33 http://www.nic.st/twoletter/name/w 14:11:44 hmm 14:11:48 anyway x.st is registered 14:12:18 14:12:20 php infinite loop 14:12:25 elliott: doesn't crash my php 14:12:27 RELEVANT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YDVog236Bc 14:12:38 elliott, if only I knew how to reproduce these bugs. It is pointless to say "alt-gr sometimes get stuck" or "sometimes you get ghost pastes in gtk programs on the 'interactive' machine". 14:13:07 j-invariant: aww, not anagolf's either 14:13:18 [[This achievement by an amateur chorus would have been virtually impossible if not for [...] performing the work in the scientifically correct musical tuning of C=256 Hz, rather than the prevalent, anti-musical and vocally destructive tuning of the Romantic School's A=440 or higher (see below).]] 14:13:28 SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT 14:13:28 oh wait no it does! 14:13:31 I was doing it wrong 14:13:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:14:06 elliott: I trsied that out earlier when I read hte article but I must have done it wrong 14:14:15 I don't know more about it than that, just that they want to go back to 432Hz A tuning. <-- err, as far as I know you generally try to tune to match what the music was written for. At least in professional orchestras. 14:14:40 doesn't work on 5.3.3 here 14:14:46 Vorpal, I think they just want *everything* tuned to 432Hz A. 14:14:51 Phantom_Hoover, this might include non-equal temperament and so on 14:14:56 Phantom_Hoover, that's just silly 14:15:05 OH MAN YOU THINK SO? 14:15:14 SO WEIRD I WOULDN'T HAVE CALLED THEM SILLY YOU'RE A VISIONARY 14:15:17 Phantom_Hoover, if you are doing it professionally you tune for whatever the music was written for 14:15:45 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:15:47 [[The Schiller Institute, which represents these ideas internationally, has become known for its initiative to lower the international standard musical pitch to middle-C=256 cycles per second (corresponding to approximately A=430 to 432), in order to preserve the human voice and to return the performance of Classical music to that of the composers' poetic intentions.]] 14:15:57 PRESERVE THE HUMAN VOICE 14:16:21 variable: plz don't debate gpl/bsd here, it has been done 5 billion times before 14:16:28 we're above such jihads 14:16:54 Phantom_Hoover, well if the music was written for that then it should be played like that. If it was written for something else then do as it's author intended! 14:16:56 Because we all know that a 1% increase in frequency wreaks havoc on the vocal chords. 14:17:05 http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/images2010/Obama_BP.gif 14:17:12 variable: p.s. it's irrelevant because selling data is a broken business model only held in place by illogical regulations that should be abolished, which would conveniently make the GPL and BSD identical in making no restrictions whatsoever 14:17:15 BP employee of the month LOL 14:17:39 Phantom_Hoover, also, why do they centre around vocals? Don't they care at all about purely instrumental music!? 14:17:41 14:05 < JohnFlux> Roger Penrose, as a kid, was dropped down a grade at school 14:17:41 for doing so badly at math 14:17:41 14:06 < j-invariant> and now he thinks godels incompleteness theorem means that 14:17:44 j-invariant: heh 14:17:44 the human brain is something more than a turing machine - 14:17:48 guess some things never change, huh? 14:17:50 ^ nobody in #physics liked my joke 14:18:08 shouldn't that be 14:18:10 ##physics 14:18:12 ***8troll#Y% 14:18:29 ##physics IGNORED my brilliant idea. 14:18:38 j-invariant, GRIND THEM INTO THE DUST 14:18:48 MORE RELEVANT STUFF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiller_Institute 14:18:56 Phantom_Hoover, what was that "brilliant idea"? 14:19:05 Vorpal, Hawking generator. 14:19:21 Phantom_Hoover, err. What would that be 14:19:23 21:00:31 pikhq, speaking as someone who has read the licence, read copyright law, worked for a copyright attorney, and has two patents.... 14:19:28 variable: software patents by any chance? 14:19:30 Phantom_Hoover, a generator of physicists in wheelchairs? 14:19:35 Before I discovered that some bastards had copied it, gone back in time and written a paper on it. 14:19:59 a generator that produced hawkings would be awesome 14:20:04 [[The Schiller Institute employs a large set of arguments for this tuning, from historical accuracy to claims that this is how the universe is tuned, with references to Johannes Kepler's treatise on the harmony of the world, where he proposes the notion that the ordering of planetary orbits is based on harmonics and the relationships among the Platonic solids.[23]]] 14:20:11 Kepler's theory of the world. 14:20:16 There is no higher comedy. 14:20:17 weird I was just about to paste that exact quote 14:20:23 21:04:04 the 2-BSD license still results in fewer restrictions than the GPL (and public domain even fewer - but its not legally possible to put something in the public domain) 14:20:33 variable: it is in many countries. don't be so US-centric. 14:20:34 ..and say that Kepler himself knew this theory was slightly off and throw it out 14:20:35 elliott, HIS MOTHER! 14:20:49 j-invariant: :D 14:20:54 j-invariant, he clearly knew it was crap, since it requires circular orbits to work. 14:21:04 meh, that doesn't sound as good asas "YOUR MOTHER". 14:21:06 as* 14:21:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:21:55 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function. 14:22:10 that is parametricity 14:22:23 21:07:26 pikhq, company X decided to make a project. they look for some base to start on. they find G (GPLed) and B (BSDed). They choose to go with B because of its more free licences. They make a product and sell it. they contribute 20% of that code back to B. Now B gets something and G gets nothing. lets pretend B didn't exist and X wanted to have a viable business model. so they decide to write it on their own a 14:22:23 nd not use G. so now G still 14:22:23 21:07:26 gets nothing. 14:22:24 parametricity, awesome word 14:22:25 unfortunately, as there is no such thing as a monopoly on copying non-scarce data, X's hilariously bad business model nets them nothing and they go out of business before they even realise that the GPL has no legal standing. a sad story! 14:22:26 * Vorpal googles it 14:22:30 Oh wait, that's just in reasonable world. 14:22:50 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function. 14:22:55 j-invariant: weren't you talking about that 14:22:57 theorems just from the types 14:23:02 That's what prompted it. 14:23:02 elliott: SHEESH 14:23:10 oerjan: sheesh what 14:23:11 Phantom_Hoover: right 14:23:13 elliott: and have you installed uAgda yet? 14:23:20 Phantom_Hoover: well f can't inspect the value because it's polymorphic 14:23:27 j-invariant: no, i had to reinstall ghc. 14:23:30 it holds perfectly for system F, and breaks down partially for haskell because of nontermination and seq 14:23:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:23:40 oerjan: haskell is not a useful language to prove things about :) 14:23:42 elliott, yes, but I mean an actual, rigorous *proof*. 14:23:55 Phantom_Hoover: probably in uagda :} 14:23:59 14:23 < oerjan> it holds perfectly for system F, and breaks down partially for haskell because of nontermination and seq 14:24:02 haahaa 14:24:03 elliott: well someone _did_ write a paper about how much parametricity still holds in haskell 14:24:05 http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/revolution.html 14:24:11 "PARTIALLY" 14:24:15 The website of the crackpots itself. 14:24:47 Phantom_Hoover: it's a power of two, i like it 14:25:05 Phantom_Hoover: basically parametricity gives you for f : a -> a that f . g = g . f for any g whose type fits. then put g = const x for any x 14:25:11 elliott, yes, but that's where the non-crazy arguments end. 14:25:14 *f :: a -> a 14:25:18 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/2007/historic_videos.html 14:25:23 VIDYAS 14:26:02 "Order Verdi pitch tuning forks" I KNEW THEY WERE SELLING SOMETHING 14:26:11 01:27:32 j-invariant: For what reason do certain English-speaking adults insist on conforming to and uplifting a certain subset of the prescribed rules of correct English grammar, but still ignore others? Perhaps because English is a living language, and if an entire generation starts spelling "a lot" as "alot", then the correct spelling is "alot". 14:26:21 Gregor: Um, excuse me, the alot is used when referring to the alot. http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html 14:26:27 Gregor: a lot is quantification. 14:26:29 Duh. 14:27:18 beh 14:27:33 i thought i can make a tunnel for lava to flow 14:27:49 nooga, you can but be careful of burns. It need to slow downwards though 14:27:50 and take flowing lava from the lake to light my cave 14:27:52 nooga: your addiction is inevitable, buy it so you can play on our server :p 14:28:10 nooga, we have a skyway! 14:28:19 elliott, your argument made no sense wrt. "alot". He just claimed that language changes over time. 14:28:31 Hey, the skyway is actually secure on non-peaceful mode. 14:28:34 Vorpal: alot and a lot mean two different things 14:28:38 Vorpal: the alot is an animal: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html 14:28:47 Vorpal: a lot means "a lot". 14:28:53 elliott, ever heard of homonyms? :) 14:29:00 Vorpal: WHOOOOOOOSHTUPID 14:29:09 neither whoosh nor stupid seemed to cover it there 14:29:13 so i decided to innovate 14:29:27 whoopid 14:29:29 elliott, and yes it is an invented animal. But sure. Why not. 14:29:30 oerjan: Innovation in Puns medal, Missing the Point division plz? 14:29:51 02:02:51 * Sgeo gets desparate 14:29:51 02:02:55 desperate 14:29:58 not so desparate that you won't correct your spelling i see 14:30:17 02:44:48 Possibly, or it could be something else; if you're not on Windows, we can't help. 14:30:19 We can't? 14:30:22 Don't you mean if you _are_ on Windows. 14:30:31 03:03:40 FWIW, if you actually buy it and you want to use mcmap, you'll need to switch to Linux. 14:30:31 03:04:03 Once I buy it, I intend to mostly play on online servers 14:30:32 hmm 14:30:34 Yes, that's what I meant. 14:30:35 Sgeo: mcmap works only on online server. 14:30:35 s 14:30:45 elliott, UNTRUE! 14:30:52 lava floows in my tunnel but the cave isn't so deep 14:30:53 Phantom_Hoover: well, it only works on SMP servers. 14:30:54 It can work on LOCAL servers as well! 14:30:57 and playing an SMP server locally would suck 14:31:01 since you can just give yourself shit 14:31:02 also bugs 14:31:18 Sgeo: and mcmap is incredibly useful on our server since we often just give a coordinate pair to //goto. so be prepared to boot to ubuntu. 14:31:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:31:28 elliott, in any case you are the one being silly here. First for trying to appeal to authority (which isn't even one really!) and second for trying to use that as an argument where it didn't fit. 14:31:44 oerjan: please, you need to invent the Nuclear Whoosh so I can use it on Vorpal 14:31:53 oerjan: he is the Hiroshima to my desire to bomb japs 14:31:59 (best analogy? no, GREATEST) 14:32:14 elliott, was it supposed to be a joke? Aren't they supposed to be funny. I think I remember you claiming that. 14:32:38 Vorpal: are you trying to start like a daily game where we each annoy the other into ignoring them for a period of time 14:32:55 elliott, no. But that's an interesting idea. 14:32:57 I'll keep score! 14:33:08 ah. it won't work because my first and last ignore will be permanent. 14:33:11 (Being a neutral 3rd party.) 14:33:18 Phantom_Hoover: neutral :P 14:33:45 Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure I'm playing. I'm far too nice to be good at it :P 14:33:56 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 14:34:08 Vorpal, you're better at it than you think. 14:34:12 Phantom_Hoover, good, you realised that wasn't meant seriously :) 14:34:13 *Much* better. 14:34:37 also I hate this weather 14:34:40 i'm made out of a unicorn that poops flowers and niceness. 14:34:45 1 dm snow this afternoon 14:35:01 i'm actually inside snow now 14:35:05 we don't have doors in my country 14:35:22 05:18:14 cheater99, that's why I said a -> a. 14:35:29 Phantom_Hoover: you should probably say forall a. a -> a 14:35:37 only haskell lets that kind of implicit shit fly >:) 14:35:38 ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 14:35:39 well, and ML 14:35:43 but it says it as 'a 14:35:47 so it's quite unambiguous 14:35:51 The snow is all gone here. 14:35:51 I was out in car today. Had to stop a few times because the windshield wipers froze. Fiat really isn't made for this kind of winters. 14:36:03 Fiats* aren't* 14:36:05 i just burt myself in the lava that i invited to my cave 14:36:11 Phantom_Hoover, lucky you 14:36:13 and all my possesions 14:36:33 nooga, should have put glass in first 14:36:39 nooga, and had a safety water pool 14:37:24 Phantom_Hoover, official snow depth is at 32 cm. Though it is a fair bit from here. 14:37:43 nooga: did you have lava? 14:37:45 erm 14:37:46 nooga: armour 14:37:57 but they only measure it in a few places 14:37:58 nooga: also ignore Vorpal's advice, just stuff valuable stuff into chest before working with lava 14:38:16 elliott, my advice was good. Having a water pool to put out the fire is a good idea 14:38:21 and a bucket of water in a quick slot 14:38:26 more trouble than it's worth 14:38:28 usually 14:38:30 bucket sure 14:38:31 anything else meh 14:38:43 besides after a point dying is preferable 14:38:52 e.g. you're on fire. you have a diamond pickaxe 14:38:58 do you spend the time throwing the pickaxe away from fire 14:39:03 or trying to save yourself possibly failing and losing it? 14:39:38 elliott, you make sure to always be above the lava level when working with it. And there being a way to get out if you fall. 14:39:48 Vorpal: you haven't answered my q 14:39:49 and water pools are still useful 14:40:01 ugh, deewiant expressed is lagged beyond usability. 14:40:05 *express 14:40:05 elliott, actually I'm not sure. I would safe myself since I have diamond armour too. 14:40:14 elliott, no time to throw it all the safety 14:40:29 * elliott falls down an unloaded chunk error, with cows, while moving forwards somehow, in a minecart 14:40:32 Vorpal: you didn't get rid of the armour before working with lava? 14:40:34 clever. 14:41:24 elliott, well, if I work with lava sure. But then I make sure to take security precautions such as being able to walk out the lava area if I fall in, so I don't get stuck unable to get out 14:41:44 elliott, the other case when you could hit lava is mining, and then I wear armour of course 14:41:51 in case of pits or whatever 14:42:39 i think i will move myself 14:42:47 elliott, so far I only fell into lava once in minecraft on single player. And that was in the beginning, I had stone tools only still back then 14:43:01 nooga: there is lava everywhere at low levels btw. 14:43:14 indeed. And sometimes at higher levels 14:43:20 nooga, last I checked chests didn't burtn 14:43:22 burn* 14:43:29 yea 14:43:33 but i don't have much 14:43:36 some gold, one diamond 14:43:40 200 redstone 14:43:51 and i think i'm bored with this enormous cave 14:44:14 is there a video of bees building a honeycomb? 14:44:19 i can take everything and find another place 14:44:21 nooga, mhm. If you find a large floating island you could build a cottage on top (they are rarely large enough even for that, let alone anything larger) 14:44:40 elliott, btw about language change. Do you say "a newt" or "an ewt"? 14:44:52 an ewt 14:45:03 elliott, at least you are somewhat consistent then! :D 14:45:12 nooga: you can ditch redstone generally 14:45:17 nooga: it's slow to mine and basically worthless 14:45:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:45:32 elliott, well a few are useful to have around, for the occasional circuit 14:45:47 but circuits... 14:45:50 personally I don't mine it actively, but if I need to mine it because it is in my way then I put it in a chest 14:46:00 nooga: only mine it if you need it :P 14:46:03 it won't go away 14:46:03 nooga, yeah. If you have it, don't throw it away 14:46:09 indeed 14:46:12 but don't mine it actively unless you need it 14:46:20 i just mean when mining you can ignore it most of the time 14:46:42 elliott, quite, except when it is in your path and you are digging a supposedly straight tunnel. 14:47:23 elliott, do you use a minecart system to get around your single player world btw? 14:47:42 Vorpal: i don't have an active single player world 14:47:46 elliott, ah 14:47:49 especially since the files are on the other box 14:47:53 for my inactive one :D 14:47:54 ah right 14:48:14 elliott, rsync them. that is what I do between my thinkpad and my desktop 14:48:45 hm i should build a boat 14:49:11 Vorpal: no, i don't plan to use the old laptop all that much now 14:49:13 maybe it can be a server 14:49:49 nooga, build when needed. They break so easily it is pretty pointless to build one and expect it to be there next time. Some animal could walk into it the wrong way so it gets pushed into a stone wall or whatever. Happens a lot 14:50:05 elliott, well having a backup on another system is always nice 14:50:53 elliott, also laptop as server is probably not such good idea. laptop drives are made for lots of starts/stops, not for long continuous operation. 14:51:12 such a* 14:51:13 meh, who cares, it's quiet and small :) 14:51:14 variable: software patents by any chance? --> no; I am NOT getting into the rest of the conversation 14:51:30 variable: >:) 14:51:41 variable: if we're going to have a holy war it can at least be in less-explored territory 14:52:01 elliott, emacs vs vi ? 14:52:07 elliott, what about a coq vs. agda flamewar? 14:52:08 :-} 14:52:46 How do I parse command line arguments in Haskell ? 14:52:57 variable: there is a System.Arguments I think 14:53:25 Vorpal: but they're not even the same thing :) 14:53:30 variable: System.Environment 14:53:36 do args <- getArgs; ... 14:53:38 args is then [String] 14:53:51 ah getArgs from System.Environment 14:53:57 elliott, are vi and eamcs really the same thing though? 14:53:59 variable: emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden 14:54:03 variable: vile vs. nedit would be fun 14:54:05 it also has GetOpt 14:54:12 System.Console.GetOpt 14:54:18 elliott, ed vs. TECO? 14:54:35 Vorpal: teco wins obviously, speaking as someone who has edited with both 14:54:36 emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden <--- yet nobody seems to have got anywhere..? 14:54:42 elliott, icewm vs dwm ? 14:54:51 elliott, you used teco? 14:55:28 go meta: flamewar vs. not-having-a-flamewar 14:55:59 Vorpal: yes, i've used teco, it's nice 14:56:03 lol 14:56:15 elliott, really? Huh. 14:56:20 j-invariant: I like ais' statement -- the kind of people you get in here are more likely to use either both emacs and vi, or neither 14:56:39 ais ? 14:56:43 Vorpal: yes, I mean if you showed a dump of all the keys you put into emacs it'd look like line noise too but it's actually fun to use 14:56:46 variable, ais523 14:56:49 variable: ais523, one of our top actives 14:56:52 not as much recently though 14:56:58 elliott, hm 14:57:01 http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html this guy :-P 14:57:19 THE BEARD 14:57:22 note: site is shameless wolfram self-promotion crap 14:57:23 IT IS SO RIDICULOUS 14:57:32 Beardiculous. 14:58:01 actually today I used... emacs, kate, nano. Not vi though. While I have nothing against vi as such, I just can't get used to the split command/editing mode concept. 14:58:33 as for vim, all I can say is that I looked at vimscript and concluded that while elisp is not great for a lisp, it is still better than vimscript. 14:58:33 Vorpal, exactly 14:58:45 variable: software patents by any chance? --> no; I am NOT getting into the rest of the conversation <-- or else he'll have to use his patented death ray 14:58:54 oerjan, sshhh 14:59:09 oerjan: *patented death ray control software 15:00:24 this is interesting, Kepler has a different theory about snowflake formation than me 15:00:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:02:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:03:51 j-invariant: lol 15:05:10 hm doesn't that apply to a lot of old science. The best fitting theory changes over time as new discoveries are made and so on. 15:05:26 I mean, what is so interesting about this difference in particular? 15:06:39 j-invariant, ^ 15:06:59 kepler is right about everything 15:07:02 C=256hz qed beyotches 15:08:44 elliott, so what about non-European music? 15:09:16 is it safe to jump to the water from a great height? 15:09:24 nooga, how deep is the water 15:09:30 Vorpal: 256 fucking hz 15:09:34 nooga: 2 deep or more, yes 15:09:34 few boxes 15:09:40 1 square, no 15:10:07 nooga, 2 or deeper should be safe. But I found that sometimes 3 or deeper is needed. I presume due to lag in SMP but I haven't played much single player lately 15:10:24 I love how NOBODY HAS RESPONDED TO MY UBUNTUFORUMS THREAD AT ALL. 15:10:35 In fact it has been pushed off the front page. 15:10:39 ubuntu forums are useless.... 15:10:46 elliott, ubuntu. What do you expect. 15:10:49 j-invariant: less useless than #ubuntu. 15:10:53 repost it to all the forums :P 15:10:53 Vorpal: less useless than #ubuntu. 15:10:57 well sometiems good stuff comes up in google 15:11:06 j-invariant: googled to hell and back for this already :/ 15:11:12 and i'm not about to go for linuxquestions or something that's even worse 15:11:22 what is the problem? (..I don't know anything about this stuff :/) 15:11:26 elliott, you think you've got it bad? 15:11:49 *Noöne* has any helpful advice for me on this graphics issue. 15:11:58 elliott, well yeah. But that is like saying falcon is better than lolcode. (note: I do not know the sorting order of badness here, just that both are very bad) 15:12:09 j-invariant: how do i make a macbook air boot a normal usb drive formatted like the ubuntu download instructions tell me to with ubuntu on it; googling suggests that macs dont like to do it but this appears to be false; the fedora guys seem to think you need a gpt partition table and an hfs partition; but apparently there are success stories with using those instructions to boot ubuntu off a usb stick on a mac 15:12:13 so I have NO FUCKING CLUE 15:12:23 Vorpal, LOLCODE is quite a nice language if you ignore everything before the AST. 15:12:41 *quite a horrible language 15:12:43 elliott, maybe it differs between different macs? 15:12:48 elliott, firmware versions or whatever 15:12:50 It uses the implicit result of the last statement to work out conditionals. 15:12:52 Vorpal: Doubtful. 15:12:54 elliott: I was able to boot mac os x off a USB but not ubuntu 15:13:00 j-invariant: heh... 15:13:10 elliott, is bootcamp installed? I presume it is? 15:13:23 Vorpal: as i have told you countless times before, "boot camp" is a marketing name that means nothing. 15:13:26 elliott: so you might have to burn some CDs to do it - and it takes a lot of testing to find out which CD works etc .. 15:13:34 Vorpal: it is an EFI update which adds bios emulation, and an OS X tool to download windows drivers and partition the disk. 15:13:47 elliott, told me once afaik. And I meant the EFI upgrade in question 15:13:53 every mac since it came out comes with the EFI update and the tool, however i have not used the tool as it will only create two partitions 15:13:57 well resize one and create one 15:14:03 right 15:14:08 j-invariant: CDs would make it trivial, but I don't have an optical drive 15:14:14 -!- cheater99 has joined. 15:14:17 oh O_o 15:14:20 j-invariant: and Airs can only boot with the Steve Jobs Approved(TM) SuperDrive. which costs £60. 15:14:27 :S 15:14:28 that sucks 15:14:31 so i kind of want to get usb working :-P 15:14:35 I'm sure I can it'll just be a pain 15:14:40 that's what you get when you buy Apple... 15:14:43 infinite pain 15:14:51 I thought someone figured out how to get ubuntu on the macbook air 15:14:58 or maybe it was pro 15:15:03 j-invariant: oh they have 15:15:06 they say "use a superdrive" 15:15:10 Heh. 15:15:12 oh okay 15:15:15 or "follow the instructions for usb on the download page" 15:15:17 see!! I told y 15:15:17 Can Macs even boot flash drives? 15:15:20 (the latter i have tried and it didn't work) 15:15:22 Phantom_Hoover: yes 15:15:30 HMMMM 15:15:30 but theydont like doing it :) 15:15:35 Ah. 15:15:57 elliott, what happens instead of booting it? 15:16:04 elliott, error? just booting normal? 15:16:30 "So after examining all the ideas that came into my head I conclude thus: the cause of the six-sided shape of a snowflake is none other than that of the ordered shapes of plants and of numerical constants; and since in them nothing occurs without supreme reason--not, to be sure, such as discursive reasoning discovers, but such as existed from the first in the Creator’s design and is preserved from that origin to this day in the wonderful nat 15:16:55 Vorpal: when i hold down option it just shows my drive and the partition i have with i think a grub floppy image on 15:16:57 Vorpal: no usb 15:17:05 HUHUH 15:17:11 elliott, does it show the mac os x usb stick if you insert that instead? 15:17:30 Vorpal: the one it came with? i'm sure it does 15:17:35 haven't actually tested it, but yes, it will 15:17:42 it can read USBs perfectly fine 15:17:42 i've got a great settlement in a hanging cliff, on a remote island 15:17:44 it just doesn't like this one 15:17:48 I think i might need gpt/hfs ... but 15:17:53 the os x usb instructions on ubuntu.com 15:17:57 suggest otherwise :-/ 15:18:15 hm 15:18:33 elliott, loadlin for OS X? I'm sure it is possible with a driver of some sort. 15:18:40 dear god no 15:18:57 elliott, it is a journaled fs, you have nothing to worry about ;) 15:19:04 it would probably be possible to make the install CD boot off a /partition/ if i extract it and hook all the bootloaders up and kernel params and stuff 15:19:07 and rely on BIOS emulation to go properly 15:19:09 but it'd be a pain 15:19:12 also, i'd have to do it on the install partition 15:19:22 because the swap and shared ones are partitions 4 and 5 IIRC 15:19:26 so i don't think you can boot from them 15:19:28 well maybe swap 15:19:41 although if i put grub on the main ubuntu partition 15:19:44 elliott, can't you boot from any partition number with gpt? 15:19:47 and used it to boot the 4th or 5th partition... 15:19:47 anyway 15:19:53 Vorpal: not with bios emulation i don't think 15:19:56 when i select one it just does the 3rd 15:20:00 elliott, hm. 15:20:02 which is presumably expected to have a bootloader for the rest 15:20:07 anyway i'd rather just get usb working 15:20:16 i half-suspect it might just be that the mac doesn't like that usb stick in particular :D 15:20:24 but it can read it in os x and stuff... 15:20:37 elliott, that sounds weird. Maybe it doesn't have the approved-by-jobs bit set? 15:20:56 elliott, if it can only use one specific cd drive I mean 15:21:06 elliott, then it is possible the same could apply to usb sticks 15:21:14 Vorpal: i doubt it since other people have reported success 15:21:30 elliott, with the same generation of macbook air? 15:21:37 yes. 15:21:39 hm 15:22:00 strange indeed 15:22:11 i wonder what the rules for bumping are on ubuntuforums, and how much they'll yell at me if i violate them 15:25:20 "Programming language design has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable software to blue-collar workaday programmers." 15:25:44 elliott, err. what. 15:25:48 that made very little sense. 15:25:52 The foundations of mathematics has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable theories to blue-collar workaday mathematicians. 15:26:08 (first quote from http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011/01/minimalism.html, latter my own mockery) 15:27:42 I just cannot understand that sort of thing 15:28:10 j-invariant: either he considers the stdlib axiomatic, or he thinks that people run around with different incompatible stdlibs. well ok you do but nobody else does :) 15:28:37 it's surprising how much of an antiacademic sentiment exists in programming 15:28:44 j-invariant, antiïntellectualism seems rife in "practical" programming... 15:28:46 I use the same standard library as everyone else that uses a good one 15:28:48 i mean, aren't we meant to be above that? 15:29:02 we're (meant to be) competent thought worker engineers 15:29:09 so why does everyone shit on theory? 15:29:22 programmers are idiots 15:30:23 Well, that's because the non-idiots have better things to do. 15:30:34 "Technically, SML'97 as defined in the Definition requires only a minimal initial basis, which, while including the types int, real, char, and string, need have no operations on those base types. Hence, the only observable output of an SML'97 program is termination or raising an exception." 15:30:40 elliott: what he means is that languages should come with frameworks 15:30:48 and huge libs 15:31:00 cheater99: no, he means that languages should be perl. 15:31:09 perlol 15:31:10 because all he does is advocate perl. all day. on reddit. 15:31:27 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/ 15:31:32 i installed a package that was dependent on some perl bs the other day 15:31:33 I rest my csae 15:31:54 it said "indexing perl manpages, this could take a while" 15:32:09 after 10 hours it wasn't done. i straced it, and noticed it's opening every single file on my hard drive. 15:32:09 j-invariant: ugh no i hate that site it's the only one worse than stack overflow 15:32:10 :D 15:32:19 cheater99: why did you leave it 10 hours. 15:32:38 when i saw it opening /bin/ksh i knew it was doing something bad 15:32:57 elliott: i couldn't be bothered touching some sort of perl disaster 15:33:04 what do you have against ksh :| 15:33:07 elliott: and besides i have enough cores. 15:33:11 it's the best worst shell 15:33:16 elliott: nothing, it's just not a perl manpage 15:33:22 cheater99: but it COULD be :D 15:33:25 a self-extracting perl manpage 15:33:31 documenting the "ksh" function 15:33:55 if you filter the ksh binary for readable characters, it's both a perl module and a manual for it 15:34:15 * elliott strings /bin/ksh 15:34:18 "For example, consider perhaps the ultimate counter example of minimalism in programming language design. PHP's multiple searching functions differ in searchtype( $needle, $haystack ) and search_type( $haystack, $needle ) and searchType( $neestack, $haydle ) and other permutations—and these are core language features." 15:34:18 ))++++////33337777777>>>>BBBEEEHHHKKKNNNQQQQUUUUUUUUUU 15:34:24 this makes no sense 15:34:25 yup, perl 15:34:33 they are just procedures, you could add them to scheme 15:34:41 cdefbghijkl+m,*n !"#$%&'()opqrstuGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`vwxyaz-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEF{|}~ 15:34:43 i sense a table :D 15:34:49 o 15:34:49 m 15:34:50 f 15:34:51 g 15:34:53 fffffff 15:34:55 UUUUUUU 15:34:57 --strings /bin/ksh 15:35:20 not the omfg part that is 15:35:23 just th efu 15:35:26 *the fu 15:36:10 ugh elliott I hate stuff like this 15:36:18 I don't even know what he's trying to say but it's wrong 15:36:24 hehe :/ 15:36:35 I wish people just wouldn't write stuff 15:37:07 if you can't understand it you've never used php 15:37:09 which is good. 15:37:29 i hereby approve osmose as a good sms emulator 15:37:33 --strings /bin/ksh <-- well it is based on a heuristic. A very simple one. Just find printable chars. On each line print as long lengths of these are possible. 15:38:08 elliott: what point is he trying to make 15:39:01 j-invariant: no idea 15:39:09 Vorpal: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU 15:39:19 how do people hone this ability of just write absolute shit 15:40:13 strings on random large program in /usr/bin have things like: 15:40:16 fffff. 15:40:16 AVAUATUSH 15:40:16 UUUUUUU 15:40:21 Why doesn't strings at least look for null-termination? 15:40:26 AVAUATUSH! 15:40:35 Vorpal has finally cracked. 15:40:43 * Phantom_Hoover joins in 15:40:47 Phantom_Hoover: POSIX actually says it can 15:40:50 Phantom_Hoover: but most implementations don't 15:40:56 to catch, uh, non-C software! 15:41:01 IÄ! IÄ! CTHULHU FTAGN 15:41:09 Er, *FHTAGN 15:41:10 Phantom_Hoover, a lot of strings are not null-terminated outside the C world 15:41:16 Phantom_Hoover: (possibly because posix requires you to implement a flag that doesn't check for any kind of termination, so it's less work :)) 15:41:29 although gnu strings is, surprise surprise, SUPA ADVANCE: 15:41:30 elliott, a lot of UUUUUUU in lots of binaries. Maybe some sort of padding or something that is generated by some tool? 15:41:31 The options to strings(1) are: 15:41:31 -a This option causes strings to look for strings in all sections 15:41:31 of the object file (including the (__TEXT,__text) section. 15:41:31 Which flag? 15:41:36 Vorpal: probably 15:41:44 Phantom_Hoover: well it's meant to be -a. 15:42:06 * Phantom_Hoover still views GNU true as the best programming joke EVER. 15:42:21 Phantom_Hoover: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/strings.html 15:42:24 well 15:42:25 -a 15:42:25 Scan files in their entirety. If -a is not specified, it is implementation-defined what portion of each file is scanned for strings. 15:42:28 ok so it's not quite that 15:42:38 incidentally gnu strings doesn't have -t. 15:42:47 so technically ... OS X doesn't actually count as certified Unix 15:42:57 except i guess they're probably quite relaxed about all the fiddly command line flags : 15:42:58 :P 15:43:09 0:55 push %rbp 15:43:11 or the machine was fitted with a special POSIX compliamt command set 15:43:11 elliott, that is U 15:43:14 Vorpal: heh 15:43:15 as far as I can tell 15:43:29 elliott, so probably not just nop padding then 15:43:30 http://libposix.sourceforge.net/ why does this exist 15:43:39 * Phantom_Hoover decides to disassemble his /bin/true 15:43:58 elliott, *nix in user space or what? 15:44:01 Vorpal: no 15:44:08 Vorpal: libc that conforms strictly to posix 2008 with no extensions 15:44:12 why? WHO KNOWS 15:44:16 http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/libposix/index.php?title=Compare 15:44:45 stupid 15:44:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:05 Yay, I got hand-approved for byuu's forum. SO LUCKY :p 15:45:08 very stupid and ill defined criteria for most of those 15:45:41 Conclusion: /bin/true is completely insane. 15:46:07 Scan files in their entirety. If -a is not specified, it is implementation-defined what portion of each file is scanned for strings. <-- on linux I believe it skips some comment sections from ELF files or such 15:46:17 nopw 0x0(%rax,%rax,1) 15:46:18 What. 15:46:24 "Do not scan only the initialized and loaded sections of object files; scan the whole files." 15:46:28 Just, what. 15:46:37 Phantom_Hoover, what is strange about that. It is a nop. 15:46:45 Phantom_Hoover, in fact a nop larger than 1 byte 15:46:58 Vorpal, but WHY 15:47:06 lol 15:47:08 addressed nop 15:47:08 this is nothing unexpected. Compilers add padding between functions and so on. 15:47:12 Phantom_Hoover: disassemble with intel syntax urgh 15:47:21 elliott, oh, you can do that? 15:47:39 Phantom_Hoover: i think you can tell objdump to 15:47:44 -M intel 15:47:45 failing that you could convert 15:47:46 right 15:47:56 OK, better. 15:48:06 I still have no idea where the hell execution starts. 15:48:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 15:48:33 elliott, both intel and amd docs recommend that you use use as large nops as possible rather than many small. Better with one 7 byte nop than 7 one byte ones. Better for instruction pipeline if ever executed or something such iirc (as would be if it aligns the start of a loop, but not if you align the start of a function) 15:48:48 Phantom_Hoover: Um, at _main. One would presume. 15:48:57 elliott, not _start? 15:49:02 Vorpal: Well, that's irrelevant. 15:49:04 GNU true is written in C. 15:49:24 And dynamically linked? 15:49:24 elliott, well _start is provided by crt0.o or some such file 15:49:27 No. 15:49:40 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:49:51 um yes i would assume 15:49:56 Yes. C programs are linked to crt whatever, which contains the _start symbol. 15:49:56 re dynamically linked 15:50:07 well crt is always compiled in 15:50:08 Statically linked, not dynamically. 15:50:13 but it'll be dynamically linked to libc. 15:50:24 no one claimed it would be dynamically linked to crt0.o ... 15:51:05 Anyhow, at least my /bin/true is stripped, so it doesn't have the executable's own symbols any more. 15:51:07 Vorpal, also, ELF(64) doesn't prepend _ to function names. 15:51:09 how fun, my /bin/true seems completely stripped of all symbols 15:51:17 presumably they are in some -dbg packet 15:51:20 package* 15:51:54 Anyway, objdump -f reports the entry point address; start from there. 15:52:11 Phantom_Hoover, _start is still called _start 15:52:23 Phantom_Hoover, just check with an unstripped file 15:52:25 Vorpal, yes, but main is not changed to _main. 15:53:03 Phantom_Hoover, I never claimed it was 15:53:10 Phantom_Hoover, that was elliott 15:53:28 elliott, is this true? 15:53:34 i believe so? 15:53:41 it was a misatke 15:53:44 *mistake 15:55:01 how tricky is un-inlineing? 15:55:38 for something like lostking.b it could be an optimisation I believe. 15:57:35 Vorpal: tricky. 15:57:43 i think lostkng is goto-based, not procedures, no? maybe not 15:57:47 elliott: have you managed to compile bsnes? 15:58:05 cheater99: yes on linux, no on os x 15:58:09 i'd need a newer gcc 15:58:12 and i'd rather just get linux working 15:58:16 i don't have 4.5 and when i try to compile wiht 4.4 it makes problems with syntax 15:58:18 elliott, hm. I just noticed a lot of code snippets showing up again and again over the file 15:58:26 i don't want to install 4.5 either. 15:58:57 cheater99: well, you have to. 15:58:59 cheater99: gcc is very buggy. 15:59:14 cheater99: besides, it needs a gcc with C++0x support 15:59:14 elliott, why not clang? 15:59:18 which 4.4 evidently doesn't have 15:59:22 There really ought to be a word for anti-Luddites. 15:59:35 Vorpal: you have no idea how much emulator code gets badly compiled 15:59:45 cheater99: the makefile specifically sets that gcc version when the OS is OS X, and for a reason 15:59:46 Phantom_Hoover, apart from "anti-Luddites" you mean? 16:00:02 You know, people who view all new technology as wonderful and obviously superior to what went before. 16:00:04 4.4 has 0x 16:00:05 elliott, well, is it doing something strange then? 16:00:10 elliott! 16:00:17 it doesn't recognize []() { ... } 16:00:21 tell me about that type system you mentioned earlier 16:00:24 that's what 4.4 chokes on 16:00:24 elliott, I mean, unless you JIT or do evil mangling or similar it should work, no? 16:00:35 elliott, in theory at least 16:00:36 Vorpal: hahahaha 16:00:40 Vorpal: you have way too much faith in c compilers 16:00:43 cheater99: that's C++0x. 16:00:50 elliott, well duh, due to bugs it won't in practise 16:00:52 cheater99: you need a compiler with C++0x lambda support. get a gcc 4.5 binary. 16:00:57 elliott: 4.4 has 0x mode at least 16:01:02 cheater99: but no lambda support 16:01:05 yeah 16:01:08 augur: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/category/code/ixi/ read from bottom to top 16:01:18 why is he using lambdas anyways? 16:02:15 elliott, C++? lambdas? wait a second... Do they give you a proper closure? 16:02:26 it would seem they do 16:02:26 Vorpal: yes. 16:02:38 cheater99: because he built his gui layer around them 16:02:52 haha @ php, php has recently received closures. 16:03:17 name\spaces 16:03:26 You can separately sort of tell which variables to capture. 16:03:32 (In a C++0x lambda.) 16:03:36 elliott, what language would you use to write a program that needs to do lots of ioctl()s and similar? 16:03:44 elliott: yeah, namespaces in php are largely laughable 16:03:50 Vorpal: i wouldn't :> 16:04:00 Vorpal: haskell of course 16:04:02 elliott, well, in the hypothetical situation that you would. 16:04:02 Vorpal: or some ML dialect ... if I could get away with it ... maybe 16:04:19 haskell might work 16:04:22 elliott, hm. So good FFI there? 16:04:29 Vorpal: no, just bindings. 16:04:33 i don;'t know of any ml ffis 16:04:34 *don't 16:04:38 meh 16:04:38 anyway 16:04:41 i'm tired 16:04:42 right 16:04:49 elliott, go sleep then? 16:05:04 Vorpal: umm 16:05:04 elliott, you can join oerjan in his sleep schedule 16:05:04 it's 4pm 16:05:08 i have to be up at 8am 16:05:12 well 16:05:13 8 to 9 16:05:24 both haskell and erlang have very good ffi 16:05:33 if i slept now i would wake up at midnight 16:05:37 but i couldn;t anyway 16:05:38 not tired enough 16:05:40 *couldn't 16:05:49 elliott: you'll get up at 4-5, which means you'll be allowed to oversleep for the next couple of weeks 16:05:57 oh shut up 16:06:18 that wasn't nice :( 16:13:33 I slept 24 hours once a week ago 16:14:02 continuously? 16:14:09 Yes. 16:15:03 my "record" is about 16 hours I think 16:15:38 zzo38: Had you not slept before? 16:16:23 elliott: I had slept before. 16:17:13 i think mine may be like 20 hours, but not sure 16:17:58 zzo38: how long ago? 16:21:07 elliott: I think the previous day. 16:23:19 -!- lambdabot has joined. 16:23:34 -!- Hilbert has joined. 16:24:00 damn 16:24:06 i'm completely lost 16:24:15 nooga: try and die >:) 16:24:16 omg who got lambdabot 16:24:21 Phantom_Hoover: did you get lambdabot 16:24:37 elliott, yes. 16:24:43 Phantom_Hoover: permanent? :p 16:24:56 Cale certainly offered it. 16:25:10 SO LUCKY 16:25:14 > 41+1 16:25:14 42 16:25:35 -!- shachaf has joined. 16:25:43 -!- Silvah has joined. 16:25:48 Cale, i.e. yes. 16:25:48 Phantom_Hoover: done :) 16:25:49 oh dear god Phantom_Hoover what did you do 16:25:55 they're invading now 16:26:13 elliott, THE PORTAL IN THE CHANNELS WAS NOT MEANT TO BE 16:26:14 our topic is not very presentable for this occasion 16:26:21 I HAVE TAMPERED IN GOD'S DOMAIN 16:26:34 -!- elliott has set topic: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/. 16:26:44 act professional, everyone 16:26:51 * Phantom_Hoover does his tie up. 16:27:32 Relax, people. I deal with esoteric languages all the time. 16:27:34 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:27:46 Today I'll probably be doing something with C++, for instance. 16:27:51 -!- Cale has joined. 16:28:02 why did it quit? 16:28:07 shachaf: seconded 16:28:13 It quit in #haskell as well, FWIW. 16:28:14 I just wanted to make a change to the code 16:28:20 uh oh :D 16:28:25 It's coming back up :) 16:28:28 Phantom_Hoover, well of course, to be per channel it would be /part 16:28:36 or PART rather 16:28:38 Cale: we apologise if it gets into one of our famous botloops. 16:28:45 although i think lambdabot puts spaces in front of enough outputs to avoid that. 16:28:45 Cale: What, lambdabot doesn't support hot reloading of the startup code? :-) 16:28:54 elliott, thankfully the last one was ages ago iirc? 16:28:57 elliott: Was that bug fixed? 16:29:08 shachaf: What bug? 16:29:19 ?where+ bug ?where haskell 16:29:27 Wait, she's not even in here. 16:29:29 @echo !echo `echo echo 16:29:40 shachaf: I doubt she responds to herself. 16:29:41 Oh, wait. 16:29:48 shachaf: But, er, if that works then yes, there is slight cause for concern. 16:29:50 Phantom_Hoover, I believe the bots are configured to ignore each other. Also which one is @ ? 16:29:53 :-P 16:29:54 elliott: Yes, you need two lambdabots for that to work. 16:30:00 Vorpal, lambdabot. 16:30:02 ah 16:30:07 shachaf: Say hello to EgoBot, HackEgo, and fungot. 16:30:07 elliott: as for unix. ( at the problem: if a ranlib index is there really such a subdomain as far as i have 16:30:08 As well as > and ?, it appears. 16:30:10 ^source 16:30:10 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 16:30:15 fungot ignores all the bots though. 16:30:15 elliott: i wonder if that isn't terrible, just to show a friend of mine heard shouted at his theatre, " it's _not_ a waste of my message was just too damn busy putting in multiple ways by the 16:30:18 But HackEgo talks to everyone I think. 16:30:24 does it hm 16:30:28 shachaf: It was a different change I wanted to make (the flags for running mueval) 16:30:35 ^ul (`ls)S 16:30:36 `ls 16:30:36 (P.S. When is lambdabot going to be rewritten in Befunge?) 16:30:37 Cale: Ah. 16:30:41 lets see 16:30:44 wait 16:30:46 (It's obviously the most elegant and concise language for writing IRC bots: http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98) 16:30:46 elliott: upon setting establishing a dial up connection, large memory and a few 16:30:47 where is hackego? 16:30:52 Vorpal: down again probably 16:30:56 right 16:30:59 heh, wow, the joins take a long time 16:31:08 Cale: I'm sure they'd go faster ... with Befunge! 16:31:15 lambdabot's join list is getting kind of insane :P 16:31:25 Psht, I remember when we were one of, like... 10 channels! 16:31:28 -!- lambdabot has joined. 16:31:29 Gregor, your bots are not looking making a good impression. 16:31:31 In the good old days. 16:31:32 > 2+@ 16:31:34 mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse 16:31:34 oops 16:31:36 @unlambda `.xv 16:31:37 > 2+2 16:31:37 x 16:31:38 mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse 16:31:46 @echo !echo `echo echo 16:31:46 Ah, lambadbot belongs here after all. 16:31:46 echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric", 16:31:47 ":@echo !echo `echo echo"]} rest:"!echo `echo echo" 16:31:57 shachaf, how so? 16:32:06 That seems buggy, but I'm no expert. 16:32:07 Vorpal: Well, @bf and @unlambda. 16:32:14 Maybe that's not esoteric enough for this channel, though. 16:32:14 shachaf, right 16:32:17 >putStrLn "hello" 16:32:26 shachaf: EgoBot already does those! :-P 16:32:26 > text "hello" 16:32:28 mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse 16:32:40 elliott, and fungot too? 16:32:40 Vorpal: we're still picking up the core file, i get a zillion copies of the directory, it is possible there's a new conceptual grouping of processes). 16:32:41 Cale: mueval is broken. 16:32:46 Vorpal: not unlambda 16:32:50 elliott, oh right 16:32:54 shachaf: So is the Brainfuck 8-bit, 16-bit, bignum? Left-infinite or right-infinite tape? What EOF convention? (Any input?) 16:33:05 @version 16:33:06 lambdabot 4.2.2.1 16:33:06 shachaf: Do c and d interact properly in the Unlambda? 16:33:06 darcs get http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot 16:33:07 >:D 16:33:12 oh dear 16:33:13 hehe 16:33:14 elliott, I always mix up {under,un}{load,lambda} for unknown reason 16:33:23 Clearly lambdabot should support Lazy K instead of unlambda. 16:33:26 Cale, you broke lambdabot! 16:33:30 shachaf: I approve. 16:33:32 It's more flexible! 16:33:35 j #haskell 16:33:36 oops. 16:33:51 Did I pimp my monady IO library for Lazy K yet? 16:34:02 IT IS TOTALLY MONADY 16:34:15 http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/Plugin/BF.hs Wait, whre's the actual interpreter? 16:34:20 Also the sequencing is broken. 16:34:32 (Heh @ it being breadbox's though.) 16:35:32 elliott: In the main directory. 16:35:49 ah 16:36:27 hmm 16:36:35 it looks like it's... right-infinite? I think so 16:36:38 8-bit cells 16:36:42 It should support http://samuelhughes.com/boof/ 16:36:45 wrap on overflow 16:36:55 Samuel Hughes != Sam Hughes? 16:37:00 shachaf: It should support every language on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list. 16:37:10 shachaf: But especially http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php. 16:37:10 Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean? 16:37:12 elliott: Some of them are uncomputable. 16:37:16 shachaf, note that a fair deal of those languages are not computable. 16:37:20 zzo38: And it should support them best of all! 16:37:31 And some of them require time travel. 16:37:35 Phantom_Hoover: The latter is an alias for the former, as far as I can tell. 16:37:45 shachaf, Sam Hughes of qntm.org. 16:37:46 Not like time travel is computable. 16:37:53 Everyone with the same name is the same person! 16:37:55 Phantom_Hoover: No, it's "the other" Sam Hughes. 16:37:57 You heard it here first. 16:38:07 idiotic mob killed me in my new cavern 16:38:14 and i've lost tools and coal 16:38:15 huh 16:38:16 ;f 16:38:17 How stupid of it. 16:38:19 nooga: At least pretend this isn't #minecraft while we have guests. 16:38:29 Ha! 16:38:33 We've caught you. 16:38:41 NO WE TALK ABOUT ESOTERIC LANGUAGES _ALL DAY_ 16:38:48 Some of them, although computable, are not enough information to write implementation. 16:38:52 MINECRAFT IN AN ESOTERIC LANGUAGE 16:38:53 DISCUSS 16:38:55 oh 16:38:56 guests 16:38:56 Like Java? 16:38:59 How esoteric. 16:39:12 shachaf: Oh man, that's as funny as that one time someone called Perl line noise! 16:39:16 shachaf, we have a well-established boundary between "esoteric" and "boring". 16:39:17 woah, yesterday's log is really big 16:39:18 shachaf: Actually we discuss like a lot of various things in this channel, although esoteric programming is its main topic. 16:39:26 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Boring languages are the ones we don't like. 16:39:28 *ostensibly 16:39:33 Esoteric languages are the ones too repulsive to dislike. 16:39:34 elliott, YES 16:39:46 Wait, some esolangs are actually nice. 16:40:00 Redivider is actually quite snazzy I've always thought. 16:40:07 (We still need an Eodermdrome interpreter.) 16:40:34 shachaf: Really though, our favourite esoteric language, so theoretical and academic to be almost useless, yet so beautiful in its purity that it's almost a shame that it's impossible to write real programs in it... 16:40:37 shachaf: Haskell. 16:40:42 * elliott runs away, *very* quickly 16:41:11 elliott: Why? I doubt most of #haskell would seriously disagree with you. 16:41:20 touche :) 16:41:20 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:41:27 Maybe dons and the other Galois folks. 16:41:30 elliott, you think Haskell isn't theoretically pure *enough*. 16:41:38 Phantom_Hoover: Well...yes...that is to say... 16:41:45 LOOK JUST BECAUSE I WANT DEPENDENT TYPES 16:41:59 Phantom_Hoover: Well, as far as languages that *try* to be theoretically pure, Haskell probably ranks pretty badly. 16:42:00 AND FRP RATHER THAN IO 16:42:21 I just say that 'cuz Conal's surname is my name. 16:42:25 We should totally make a Haskell Lazy K interpreter. 16:42:26 Have to stick together and all. 16:42:34 Phantom_Hoover: A Haskell interpreter in Lazy K? 16:42:35 I approve. 16:42:39 BOTH! 16:42:43 Is there any language that uses FRP in any meaningful way? 16:42:52 shachaf: Conalskell! 16:42:55 Haskell is pretty much right on the boundary between research languages and languages that are practical to use 16:42:57 First the Lazy K interpreter. 16:43:06 elliott: Is "elliott" /= "elliottt"? 16:43:17 shachaf: Yes indeed. 16:43:27 shachaf: In fact I have talked to elliottt before I believe. Quite confusing. 16:43:32 In fact I'm = ehird. 16:43:33 Mathematica 7 has a sorta FRP-like thing which actually works, but isn't very theoretically nice. 16:43:42 Cale: Plus it's Mathematica. 16:43:49 Ah, you're ehird. OK. 16:43:57 Darn, now you know my secret. 16:44:06 Must be sneakier. 16:44:56 -!- lambdabot has joined. 16:46:16 This channel seems like such a time-waster. 16:46:25 * shachaf doesn't play Minecraft, though. 16:46:35 So presumably when you show your true colors it'll subside. 16:47:43 shachaf: That is, until you start playing. 16:47:58 Actually we seem to have had a slight break in Minecraft chat due to Christmas. It has been replaced with silence. 16:48:06 But I think it's picking up again. 16:48:17 I swear we talk about other things sometimes too though, I just have no idea what they are. 16:49:30 16:42 < Cale> Haskell is pretty much right on the boundary between research languages and languages that are practical to use 16:49:38 that makes it sound like haskell is almost useless 16:50:05 j-invariant: Well, it basically just became useful for industry work :) 16:50:27 -!- Silvah has left (?). 16:50:34 j-invariant: In the last few years or so. 16:50:37 Cale: yeah sure, with your wimpy typesystem 16:51:20 I don't play Minecraft either. 16:51:22 (،،3) 1 2 16:51:22 I really am amazed how people can use haskell types to set up the program to be correct in various ways 16:51:25 > (،،3) 1 2 16:51:27 (3,2,1) 16:51:39 I did make up a lot of my own games, though. 16:51:49 -!- distant_figure has joined. 16:51:51 every time I try to do that I find that I don't need some feature that don't exist 16:52:10 -!- distant_figure has left (?). 16:52:36 j-invariant, wait, to prove it correct? 16:52:42 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:52:57 Dear GOD, why is it so hard to find a list of reasons why sucks. 16:53:05 Phantom_Hoover: not abtsract high level correctness but simple stuff 16:53:49 I mean, PHP, C++, Java: these are all considered suckish. Yet it is nigh-impossible to find reasons for this. 16:53:58 heh 16:54:06 It's just assumed that you *know* why they suck. 16:54:45 zzo38: I would like to make a game 16:55:12 I don't think I could be bothered to actually type out all the code for the thing |I have in mind tohugh :( 16:55:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:55:42 j-invariant, what is it? 16:56:52 Phantom_Hoover: The question of why those suck comes up all the time and has been answered on the web, mailing lists, and elsewhere countless times :) 16:57:12 Cale, but actually finding those answers is hard. 16:57:20 j-invariant: What ideas do you have for making a game? 16:57:48 Phantom_Hoover: The easiest reason that those three all suck is that they have no proper support for functions. 16:57:54 zzo38: well not so much a game but just an program that lets you immerse yourself in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhombic_dodecahedral_honeycomb 16:58:03 zzo38: so it could be like a maze 16:58:25 I mean, you could go into detail, but why nitpick when there's a gigantic glaring flaw :) 16:58:29 j-invariant, make it a text game. 16:58:33 j-invariant: Have you tried any of my games? Feel free also to modify them. 16:58:42 zzo38: do anya of them work on ubuntu? 16:58:56 j-invariant, DO NOT BE DRAWN IN BY ZZO 16:58:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:59:06 j-invariant: Yes, any MegaZeux games will work if you compile MegaZeux for Ubuntu. 16:59:20 We've known how to implement first class functions efficiently for decades, and we've known about their importance to abstraction since before the dawn of electronic computing. There's no excuse. :) 16:59:47 zzo38: link? 16:59:51 Cale: also they have mutability 16:59:53 to your MegaZeux games 16:59:59 08:59 < Khaos> !pom 16:59:59 08:59 < Rodney> The Moon is New. New moon in NetHack for the next 3 days. 17:00:00 and weak to no type system 17:00:06 lambdabot needs to get this functionality. 17:00:21 j-invariant: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP 17:00:38 shachaf: psht, soon you will ascend from nethack to playing dwarf fortress. then you'll descend from playing dwarf fortress to lego^Wminecraft. 17:00:41 And here is the source code of MegaZeux so that it can be compiled: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux_src.zip 17:00:59 zzo38: shouldn't I use http://sourceforge.net/projects/megazeux/files/megazeux/2.82b/megazeux_2.82b_amd64.deb/download ? 17:01:02 oh 17:01:10 elliott: Dwarf Fortress? Minecraft? What about your liberty? 17:01:10 nevermind 17:01:27 shachaf: NetHack takes away the liberty referred to as "free time" 17:02:15 zzo38: what do you think of my idea 17:02:35 j-invariant: No. You can also get the latest version compiled from http://vault.digitalmzx.net/ but my version has some additional features and other things. 17:02:39 elliott: Dwarf Fortress doesn't provide the source code. Minecraft doesn't even provide the binary without payment. 17:02:55 shachaf: And NetHack doesn't provide free time. 17:03:08 zzo38: did you write the music for this? 17:03:16 j-invariant: Maybe you can make a game? 17:03:20 elliott: Look, in this comparison you're not gaining anything by saying that one of them takes away your free time. 17:03:29 That's considered an invariant. 17:03:39 shachaf: I'm not actually being serious 17:03:58 j-invariant: The music for the game? I typed in the music for the title screen and some others. I didn't compose the music myself though. 17:04:00 gee I don't know how to press F5 17:04:06 * shachaf isn't completely either. 17:04:10 zzo38: I like this music 17:04:15 I know it's an old tune 17:04:20 I had more or less stopped with NetHack until two people independently tried to get me to start again. 17:04:24 * shachaf sighs. 17:04:31 j-invariant: What kind of computer are you using that you don't know how to push F5 key? 17:04:39 You can also push "P", that also works. 17:04:57 * shachaf vanishes in a puff of orange smoke. 17:05:00 (In case the F5 key is broken) 17:07:11 zzo38: I don't know if this is a bug I am stuck 17:07:45 j-invariant: Where did you get stuck? Describe. 17:08:00 the whole screen is grey except for a box 17:08:07 http://i.imgur.com/nkc4J.png 17:08:24 j-invariant: That is a dark room. Push T to light a torch. 17:08:32 ah! 17:08:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:08:35 (Also push H for help) 17:08:53 im not very good at games :P 17:10:15 I love the music thuogh 17:11:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:11:12 j-invariant: Also, if you have a DOS emulator, you might want to try the CGA Collection games (there are many different ones, but they are all small games). Here is a wiki article about the Super ASCII MZX Town series: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town 17:11:43 Which statements in the list in the "Criticize" section do you think are true and which do you think are untrue? 17:12:06 I want to play this game 17:12:08 more 17:12:15 I'm dead 17:12:41 j-invariant: OK continue playing Super ASCII MZX Town. It is good game but it is difficult. If you get dead you can try again. Remember to save game. 17:13:08 (Push F9 to quicksave, F3 to save in a different filename (in case you want multiple save files), F10 to quickload, and F4 to select a file to restore a save game.) 17:13:11 "DID YOU KNOW THAT 100% OF THE PEOPLE THAT ENTER THE TOWER OF DOOM DIE?" lol 17:15:15 I wish I knew how to press F-keys 17:15:36 j-invariant: um by pressing them? 17:15:36 You depress them. 17:15:46 j-invariant: What kind of computer are you using? 17:16:06 there are pictures on the Fkeys like mute, audio up, turn off internet... I don't know why 17:16:11 anyway that is what they do 17:16:14 j-invariant: mac by any chance? 17:16:16 j-invariant: try Fn+Fkey 17:16:20 j-invariant: that sends the actual f key 17:16:29 works with most laptops that do that shit 17:16:48 j-invariant: You might also have to change a BIOS setting. Some laptop computers allow changing this mode by BIOS setting. 17:17:52 "you need an inappropriate key" haha 17:18:42 why is there a timer in the forest? 17:19:17 j-invariant: Because that level (and some other levels) are timed. When you run out of time you lose 2 health points. 17:19:55 even when I set display mode to health I don't see health 17:20:09 oh I do, my character is a number now 17:20:21 j-invariant: That is because you have 100 or more. If you have less than 100, the face representing the player displays the tens digit of the health. 17:22:06 (You can also push ENTER to display status) 17:22:34 great 17:27:41 is there a key t osave other than F3? 17:27:44 fizzie: Was that arbitrary-placement thing fixed by SSI? 17:28:14 j-invariant: Yes, F9 is quicksave, it saves in the same filename previously selected. F3 allows you to enter a new filename to save, in case you want multiple save files. 17:28:29 -!- sspm has joined. 17:28:31 sorry I meant other than an F-key 17:29:25 j-invariant: No, sorry. (Next time you reboot the computer, check the BIOS setting for the setting of F-keys.) 17:30:04 i figured out how to press those keys 17:30:28 Still, changing the BIOS setting might make it easier to press those keys. 17:33:49 how to install mysql on ubuntu 10.10? 17:34:06 sudo-apt get install mysql 17:34:24 sspm: Probably something like: sudo apt-get install mysql 17:34:45 how to start orca software? 17:35:01 sspm: Did you try typing in "orca"? Did you look through the menus? 17:36:01 i tried to install it but it didn't work...! 17:37:25 sspm: Maybe you need a different package name. In Ubuntu, if you try to type in a name of a program that is not installed, it will tell you what the package name is. 17:38:10 elliott: Yes; it no longer accepts place-block messages if you aren't holding that particular block. 17:39:40 once i installed orca,will it start automatically or some setting has to be done... 17:40:09 sspm: Do you know if there is a IRC channel for orca? Did you read the manual page for orca? 17:40:18 I don't know about that program. 17:40:28 zzo38: this is great 17:40:39 I got to the lava two screens past the forest 17:41:06 no 17:42:02 j-invariant: OK. Any questions about that screen? Do you mean the one where they sell the inappropriate keys? 17:42:08 yes 17:42:15 sspm: sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda 17:45:15 j-invariant: You won't be able to continue at that level until you find the purple keycard (not because you need it for this level, but for an entirely different reason). (Hint: When a transporter is blocked you will move to the corresponding one on the other side. This might help you find the keycard?) 17:46:00 is it the command to start orca?\ 17:46:12 sspm: cheater99's command is wrong that surely won't help you install the program. Did you try "man orca"? 17:46:53 sspm: Also, is there a webpage or book or something for that program? You can also look there. 17:47:25 oh right, i was missing count=10240 17:47:31 sspm: sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240 17:47:39 in fact you can couple it with apt-get 17:48:27 sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240; sudo apt-get orca; halt -pfw 17:50:22 sspm: Did you know cheater99 is cheating? 17:50:47 So don't do those commands! 17:50:56 i'm a cheater :p 17:51:16 zzo38: it will install orca on his ubuntu, not sure what you mean 17:51:40 it's not like it'll erase his hard disk. 17:53:19 cheater99: I doubt it will install anything. Maybe "sudo apt-get install orca" might work, though. Your long command will not. 17:53:42 zzo38: well, let him try it and see who's right 17:54:23 cheater99: I suggest he tries my way first; your way might mess up his computer. 17:54:38 to whom should i trust? 17:54:39 apt-get can't mess up a computer, it uses debian packages! 17:54:46 sspm: trust debian 17:55:02 cheater99: But dd can. Also, apt-get requires more parameters, I think. 17:55:32 zzo38: apt-get is smart enough on its own. 17:55:50 sspm: Just try "man apt-get" then if you want to read the manual page to make sure. 17:56:00 ok now just tell me command for starting orca 17:56:11 sspm: Did you try typing "orca" or "man orca"? 17:56:17 sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240; sudo apt-get orca; halt -pfw 17:56:36 cheater99: No that is wrong! 17:56:39 Stop cheating!! 17:56:41 nope 17:56:54 stop trying to make sspm install man on his computer!!! 17:56:58 it'll mess it up 17:57:36 cheater99: I am not trying to make sspm install man on his computer. man is probably already installed and it won't mess up. 17:57:51 of course you are 17:58:06 sspm: Just try "man apt-get" << uh huh and then his computer doesn't boot 17:59:10 cheater99: It will boot if nothing was damaged (this includes both physical damage and damage due to programming). 17:59:43 zzo38: well then why are you telling him to use man? 18:00:03 cheater99: To read the manual page so that he can try to understand how it works. 18:00:23 yeah, read it after his computer melts down 18:00:26 read & weep 18:00:32 if you are worried about whether man is dangerous read man man first 18:01:24 cheater99: His computer won't melt unless he overheats it. 18:01:59 j-invariant: that would probably complately disintegrate his PCB 18:02:34 sspm: If you are worries about whether man is dangerous, go to the computer store near you, and ask the people who work there. Maybe they don't know; but it is better than nothing. 18:04:21 zzo38: what do you think about the rhombic dodecahedron honeycomb 18:04:41 j-invariant: I think you might try making a game with it if you want to. 18:05:35 -!- sspm has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:09:41 Did I type the license exception properly? http://sprunge.us/PMNW 18:11:51 cheater99: dude i think you just wiped sspm's disk 18:11:57 except he didn't use sudo probably 18:16:33 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:17:05 -!- elliott has joined. 18:19:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:20:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:23:33 "yooo #VIDEOPOSTERID#, take a look at "stream episodes (DOT) net" to be able to enjoy complete tv shows and movies considering that youtube won't permit these videos." .. sigh 18:23:51 might as well just scream " I AM A SPAMMER" 18:24:44 lugh you have supposed to have a youtube account in order to flag spam 18:25:58 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:28:31 -!- elliott has joined. 18:28:40 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:29:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 18:29:55 -!- pumpkin has joined. 18:30:05 ohai 18:30:48 O HAI, I'M ROGER PENROSE. 18:31:03 []-o 18:31:06 TENSOR PRODUCT 18:32:13 What was the crazy thing Penrose believed? 18:32:41 Something about quantum theory and spirits or something, no? 18:32:42 "The only analogy to the Emperor's New Clothes in operation about this subject is that no one has seriously condemned Penrose's mystifying jaunt into neuroscience as the ridiculous crap that it is" 18:32:53 Yeah 18:32:55 "The notion that the brain violates Godel's Theorem, and therefore cannot be represented by a computable function, and therefore it must be QUANTUM is fractally retarded. Not one aspect of the story makes any sense. I've always been mystified by the idea." 18:32:59 haha 18:33:10 http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/evyew/roger_penrose_was_dropped_down_a_class_for_being/c1beffe 18:33:27 Can't be too harsh on the guy, though 18:33:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:33:38 Many big names in science tend to do that once in a while 18:33:50 Venture outside their field of expertise and start going crazy 18:34:28 Are Penrose tiles useful or just beautiful? 18:34:28 My interest in the tiles has to do with the idea of a universe controlled by very simple forces, even though we see complications all over the place. The tilings follow conventional rules to make complicated patterns. It was an attempt to see how the complicated could be satisfied by very simple rules that reflect what we see in the world. 18:34:29 -!- elliott has joined. 18:34:32 I think it is partially quantum. (Whether it violates Godel's Theorem I do not know, though.) Also, it is possible to emulate quantum computer on a classical computer but it uses up a lot more time and space. 18:35:29 zzo38, well, of course it's partially quantum. So is everything. 18:35:47 zzo38: I thought they sort of ruled out the possibility of any quantum mechanical effect being crucial to the functioning of the brain - but I watched some quantum biology talks where they refute the heat&size arguments in photosynthesis - so it's tricky 18:35:47 The question is whether or not it's quantum enough to make it noncomputable. 18:35:54 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes, but not quite what I was trying to mean. 18:36:03 zzo38 : Everything is entirely quantum 18:36:08 That is what shit is made of! 18:36:08 Penrose likes to say "microtubles" 18:36:25 "quantum" in this case means having an essential non-classical operation 18:36:37 Phantom_Hoover_: But I think quantum computation is *not* uncomputable? Isn't it??? 18:37:41 yeah quantum mechanical computation is turing equivalent 18:38:23 Any super-turing computer in nature would be a massive discovery, something on the same scale of importance as discovering evolution or gravity 18:39:05 The essential quantum ingredient is one from which emerges (among other things) quantum free will (which is different from classical free will). And then there are some other things too. Including quantum consciousness, quantum evolution, quantum immortality, and Heisenberg. 18:39:36 ... 18:39:38 I hate you 18:39:41 when you say "free will", that's a technical term isn't it? 18:39:52 j-invariant: how do you define "turing equivalent"? 18:39:52 zzo38: There is no such thing as quantum free will. 18:39:53 Of course, these are emergent phenomena, which have partially to do with required quantum phenomena. 18:40:00 coppro: seriously? 18:40:02 I remain convinced that the very concept of free will is stupid. 18:40:02 zzo38: Congrats, you're spewing quantumbabble. 18:40:08 I mean, how do you define it? 18:40:12 j-invariant: seriously 18:40:12 Phantom_Hoover_: With MAGIC 18:40:26 elliott, you were expecting well-reasoned, sane thought from zzo38? 18:40:36 Phantom_Hoover_: I don't expect quantum crackpottery. 18:40:40 coppro: if you can simulate a turing machine with it, and a turing machine can simulate it 18:41:07 elliott: I think there is a such thing as quantum free will. There is also such thing as classical free will. But I do not believe in classical free will. I do believe in quantum free will. 18:41:09 coppro: with QM you need to put the condition that the result is correct with probability 1-epsilon 18:41:20 zzo38: What is your evidence? 18:41:52 coppro: I think you know this :| 18:41:55 zzo38: To start with, I would like a definition of quantum free will. 18:42:14 elliott: A mathematical definition, do you mean? 18:42:23 zzo38: Any definition, so long as it is precise. 18:42:24 IIRC "free will" is a technical term 18:42:33 j-invariant: I doubt he means it in that sense. 18:42:36 nothing to do with that spiritual nonsense 18:42:40 A definition will tell. 18:42:50 j-invariant, what does it mean in technical terms? 18:42:54 j-invariant: yes, but they are not equivalent if you're including a probability 18:43:27 [[Penrose notes that the present home of computing lies more in the tangible world of classical mechanics than in the imponderable realm of quantum mechanics]] — WP 18:43:36 coppro: really? can you elaborate because I thought that was a pretty sound definition 18:43:40 How the hell do microchips not use QM? 18:43:48 Phantom_Hoover_: see above 18:44:04 18:35 < j-invariant> "quantum" in this case means having an essential non-classical operation 18:44:16 Oh, right. 18:44:27 e.g. exploiting entanglement, interference etc. 18:44:32 zzo38: Well? 18:44:37 it's a double meaning 18:44:58 j-invariant, don't microchips kind of rely on energy levels or somesuch? 18:45:18 hmm, are there super-turing computers that do not solve the halting problem? 18:45:41 Phantom_Hoover_: I don't really know aboult microchips but I think you can understand them classically 18:46:03 elliott: I am figuring it out now. 18:46:30 j-invariant: actually they've had to account for quantum tunneling in recent designs 18:46:33 *tunnelling 18:46:37 because the parts have got so damn small 18:46:39 I still don't see how the hell the brain violates Gödel. 18:46:48 Phantom_Hoover_: bCuZ 0f m4jik 18:46:49 Phantom_Hoover_: it doesn't 18:46:55 Phantom_Hoover_: the whole thing is bullshit 18:46:56 Phantom_Hoover_: I doubt it violates Godel. It doesn't have to. 18:47:21 zzo38, just get on with defining quantum free will so we can tear it apart. 18:47:38 http://www.1729.com/consciousness/math-journal.html 18:47:54 j-invariant, so wait, he just says "the brain violates Gödel" and doesn't justify? 18:48:04 j-invariant: that's a joke yes 18:48:22 indeed 18:48:25 it links to http://www.1729.com/consciousness/godel.html 18:49:05 coppro: I probaly need to brush up on basics of quantum computing 18:49:31 j-invariant: yes 18:49:42 http://amazingformula.com/ this is the greatest thing ever 18:49:48 coppro: yes what? 18:50:20 * Phantom_Hoover_ needs to learn the basics of quantum computing. 18:50:29 j-invariant: a quantum TM /can/ be simulated by a probabilistic TM, but not fully accurately by a non-deterministic TM 18:51:09 so you are saying the turing machine is stronger than the QTM? 18:51:42 no, that QTMs are quivalent to NTMs, which can do more than TMs (/but/ a TM can caclulate anything an NTM can, just it might be slower) 18:52:08 your notion of equivalence takes complexity into account/ 18:52:08 for instance, the program "halt with 50% probability" cannot be implemented in a TM 18:52:09 ? 18:52:13 no 18:52:25 18:51 coppro: for instance, the program "halt with 50% probability" cannot be implemented in a TM 18:52:29 yes it can! 18:52:29 if you take complexity into account, QTMs are stronger than both NTMs and TMs 18:52:36 consider any program written in PHP 18:52:39 :P 18:54:10 can you write a random number generator with a quantum TM? 18:54:15 (true random numbers)# 18:54:23 Yes 18:54:27 a turing machine can't do that 18:54:31 exactly 18:54:45 Simply construct the state 1/sqrt(2)|0> + 1/sqrt(2)|1> and measure it 18:54:52 you have a 50-50 chance of getting either 1 or 0 18:55:34 thus a QTM is stronger than a TM 18:56:04 Also, true turing machines are not possible in anything that can actually be physically constructed, anyways. 18:56:14 yes, of course 18:56:23 zzo38: Have you defined quantum free will yet? 18:56:37 entanglement is more fun though 18:56:47 1/sqrt(2)|00> + 1/sqrt(2)|11> ... what? 18:56:48 ill be back 18:56:58 * coppro loves having a course in 25-year old math at his school 18:58:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 18:59:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:59:54 elliott, you can join oerjan in his sleep schedule 18:59:59 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaa 19:00:18 oerjan: THE BEST SCHEDULE 19:01:21 i have an appointment tomorrow and by my calculations it seems impossible to get more than at most 5 hours sleep in between 19:01:29 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:01:45 coppro, what's wrong with that? 19:01:54 25 year old maths is relatively young. 19:02:04 he said loves 19:02:19 Sarcasm? 19:02:52 Quantum free will is an emergent phenomena. You have to treat different ontologies as being different faces of the same underlying thing. Also, free will is not as free as perfectly; the laws of physics are still followed, including all probabilities are still correct and so on. Neurons still work and such. 19:03:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:03:11 Phantom_Hoover_: it was not sarcasm 19:03:21 having a 10-year-old course on 25-year-old math is /awesome/ 19:03:27 Entanglement is also relevant. 19:03:30 zzo38: OK, but you have not defined what quantum free will is. 19:03:39 zzo38: You have just said that it is an emergent phenomenon, not told us what it actually is. 19:03:42 zzo38: What is quantum free will? 19:03:59 if you take complexity into account, QTMs are stronger than both NTMs and TMs 19:04:29 um, it is not known what relation there is between QTM and NTM 19:05:26 elliott: Entanglement with non-existent phenomena. You use the same equations as normal entanglement, because it *is* normal entanglement; but it an infinite metaphysical mathematical series with things from other possible and impossible universes. 19:05:27 lol 19:05:29 BQP is not known to contain NP, nor vice versa. BQP is contained in PSPACE though iirc 19:05:29 "the human mind (even within the realm of pure mathematics) infinitely surpasses the powers of any finite machine, or else there exist absolutely unsolvable Diophantine problems of the type specified [above]" —Goedel 19:05:36 Gödel: so stoopid 19:05:55 You have to treat it that life and universe creates each other, rather than only one way permitted. 19:05:57 zzo38: So, any entanglement with non-existent phenomena is "quantum free will"? 19:06:00 * Phantom_Hoover_ → food 19:06:03 zzo38: what the hell is metaphysical 19:06:08 Is that the definition of quantum free will? "Entanglement with non-existent phenomena"? 19:06:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:06:26 (see: subtitle of scott aaronson's blog) 19:07:23 See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly. 19:08:00 zzo38: No, no, I think I'll just come to an even better realisation of the fact that what you said has no grounding in science or logic, makes no sense at all, and should not be considered by any sane or insane person. 19:08:03 This means the universe created itself by a causality loop and destroys itself by a causality loop. 19:08:14 You seem to be talking about something else entirely now. 19:08:20 I suppose that is proof of the interconnectedness of all things? 19:08:55 elliott: No, it is the meta-lemma. 19:09:12 zzo38: are you trolling me 19:09:23 elliott: I am not intending to. 19:09:43 you're succeeding 19:10:02 Well, it is not my intention. Sorry. 19:12:17 It is based on the hard problem of consciousness (actually a slight variation) creates the universe and vice versa. The problem is therefore unsolvable. But so are many other problems. 19:12:22 elliott: I don't get that godel quote 19:12:31 j-invariant: godel is stupid too! 19:12:38 j-invariant: btw can you help me understand this sentence "See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly." 19:13:01 elliott: zzo38 has read GEB 19:13:06 elliott: maybe that's the problem? 19:13:19 j-invariant: so have I and I recovered 19:13:23 but i guess his mind might be more impressionable? 19:13:25 barely. 19:13:27 :P 19:13:27 s/cosmology loop/causality loop/ 19:13:38 Sorry, I made a typing mistake that is why you cannot understand it at first. 19:13:44 zzo38: i still don't understand :) 19:13:49 in fact i understand less 19:13:56 coincidentally, Godel proved that relativity admits a unuiverse with time loops through every point in spacetime 19:13:59 what on earth has that page got to do with causality. 19:14:26 elliott: Maybe I cannot explain it very well. 19:14:36 zzo38: are you sure _you_ understand what it means? 19:15:02 elliott: No, I don't understand it perfectly either. But I understand it better than you. 19:15:16 coppro: iis it really correct to say the quantum turing machine computes more things than normal turing machine? 19:15:21 zzo38: I very much doubt that; true understanding almost always admits even a very glossed-over explanation. 19:15:45 Since you cannot explain it in any way at all that anyone else can understand, I find it incredibly unlikely that you understand it at all, or that it is even a well-defined concept. 19:16:32 j-invariant: They have the same computational power 19:16:43 elliott: But I did explain it! 19:16:44 j-invariant: but a QTM can give stochastic output 19:16:47 whereas a TM cannot 19:16:52 (also a QTM is faster) 19:17:06 zzo38: No! You just gave me a few sentences that didn't make any sense, and one extra one that made _no_ sense to do with reversing Wikipedia articles and writing an equation based on that or something. 19:17:37 elliott: Do you know how to write equation for entanglement? 19:18:02 Back. 19:18:22 zzo38: How do I reverse the Wikipedia article into a causality loop exactly? 19:18:38 elliott: Not the article, but the idea discussed by the article. 19:18:59 zzo38: I know the definition of two entangled qubits 19:19:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:19:24 zzo38: can you explain? 19:19:41 zzo38: as far as I can tell that biocentrism thing is just a quack unfalsifiable theory by an irrelevant crackpot. 19:19:45 Write the entanglement equation, and then assume that one part is not part of the universe. And then assume that is also an entanglement with another object in a doubly-non-existing universe, and so on. 19:19:57 what. 19:20:02 no, that's not how entanglement works 19:20:03 zzo38: you are still making zero sense. 19:20:07 zzo38: are you a tensor product? 19:20:15 zzo38: information can't flow through through an entanglement "channel" 19:20:28 * Phantom_Hoover_ ponders how elliott was the one who ended up in the looney bin. 19:20:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:20:34 i think my head is going to explode unless zzo38 starts making sense really soon 19:20:41 zzo38: although the proof of this is a fair bit beyond my knowledge 19:20:48 elliott: I also thought biocentrism is unfalsifyable, but they say it isn't. I'm not sure I believe them. But it is not important because it is based on philosophy instead. 19:20:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:21:04 j-invariant: Exactly. Information is not *supposed* to flow through an entanglement "channel". 19:21:09 zzo38: unfalsifiable theories cannot hide behind "philosophy" 19:21:11 pikhq, QUICK BE SANE ZZO IS BREAKING US DOWN 19:21:15 zzo38: I say that the universe is duckcentric. 19:21:19 zzo38: The universe only exists because of ducks. 19:21:26 I say it's centricentric. 19:21:30 zzo38: ^ this makes just as much sense and is just as falsifiable as "biocentrism" 19:21:30 I'm sort of lost wrt this quantum TM stuff 19:21:31 I say it's concentric. 19:21:34 zzo38: therefore you have to consider it too 19:21:37 But correlation does. 19:21:49 See? It is correlation. 19:21:50 it's not clear what hte "output" of a QTM is 19:22:01 if you measure everything at the end, you do not have a function 19:22:12 zzo38: what 19:22:17 How do quantum computers work from a many-worlds perspective? 19:22:29 Phantom_Hoover_: the way they normally do? 19:22:35 if you consider the probaiblity distribution then the output is a continous function (which is incomparable to the discrete output of a turing machine) 19:22:41 elliott, ... 19:22:42 Phantom_Hoover_: i prefer many worlds to copenhagen FWIW 19:22:56 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 19:22:58 elliott: I understand what you are saying about biocentrism. In my opinion it is a philosophical position, not a scientific one. Some people disagree. In my opinion however, biocentrism is wrong, the better way is it creates each-other and itself by causality loop. 19:23:02 also: weird... physically classical mechanics is continuous and quantum is discrete: but the computational models are switched! 19:23:03 OK, so how does one view quantum computers from many worlds? 19:23:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:23:08 zzo38: why is life relevant 19:23:15 zzo38: why not the universe and rocks create each other 19:23:20 zzo38: why not the universe and mountains create each other 19:23:23 why the universe and life? 19:23:26 can you defend that at all? 19:23:29 I thought many worlds /was/ copenhagen 19:23:31 Phantom_Hoover_: I don't understand the question. 19:23:38 j-invariant: no, copenhagen is "magic physical wave-function collapse" 19:23:39 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 19:23:44 elliott: Rocks too! Mountains too! But their kind of free will is lesser because it is lesser usable. It is more solid state. 19:23:52 zzo38: ok just checking 19:23:59 rocks created the universe because they have free will? 19:24:04 but not really because they don't have free enough will? 19:24:06 But if the hard problem did not exist then neither would the universe. 19:24:08 you are crazy. 19:24:18 Therefore, life is required too, for certain definitions of "life". 19:24:19 and your theory is incomprehensible. 19:24:24 I am against many worlds because it makes my excuse for not doing homework fallacious. 19:24:24 zzo38: hard problem of consciouness? 19:24:34 Phantom_Hoover_: :D 19:24:41 I support any theory that gets me out of homework. 19:24:42 j-invariant: Yes (actually a slight variation of such). 19:26:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:26:30 Or, maybe, it should be called the "hard mystery"? 19:26:48 I mean, with Copenhagen I can say "ah, but I used a quantum RNG to decide whether or not to do my homework, so you can't observe it without collapsing the waveform which makes it your fault if I haven't done it." 19:26:49 zzo38: can you explain it 19:27:00 Phantom_Hoover_: Do you actually say that. 19:27:26 elliott, I tried it on my physics teacher, who was amused enough that I dodged a detention. 19:27:41 Phantom_Hoover_: i was unaware that that was even possible 19:27:51 I don't understand many worlds though 19:28:01 j-invariant: No. It is unexplainable. 19:28:15 elliott, amusing teachers or dodging detentions? 19:28:24 any two photon/antiphoton(which is just a photon again) pairs in different universes can interact 19:28:30 if you measure everything at the end, you do not have a function <-- that's afaik what you do. and while some of the result may be random, not all needs to be. or may only be different with a bounded probability. so you can use it to compute. 19:28:34 It has nothing to do with how smart you are, though. 19:28:48 then why is it that there is not so much random noise throughout the universe to ruin everything? 19:28:53 Phantom_Hoover_: dodging detention by being a smartass :) 19:29:06 oerjan: that's what I started with but coppro objected 19:29:07 zzo38: nothing is unexplainable except the meaningless. 19:29:13 elliott, it's worked surprisingly well so far. 19:29:16 * elliott waits for oerjan to pounce on him for that. 19:29:45 my car froze to the parking 19:30:49 elliott: i might pounce if i understood it ;D 19:32:02 j-invariant: note, by "everything", you should mean "all the final qubits". you certainly don't measure the quantum state function. 19:32:15 Conclusion: we need to find the number of Canada's men in white coats as soon as possible. 19:33:48 * Phantom_Hoover_ wishes he knew QM. 19:34:03 Let's say you have a binary state like |ab> with |00>=[1;0;0;0] and |11>=[0;0;0;1] then if you have [1;0;0;1] and then normalized then are dependent on each other. Except that for quantum free will you need an infinite state vector that describes things that do not exist, even inside of the non-existent universe to which is being referred. Whether or not this number is countably infinite is unknown, but it is infinite. 19:35:51 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders if he should bother even to parse that, let alone interpret it. 19:36:34 "Interpret" really isn't the word to use in the context of extracting meaning from language. 19:36:35 Phantom_Hoover_: How well do you understand Dirac notation? 19:37:05 After all, you're really compiling from words to brainese. 19:37:40 elliott, do XChat's ignores persist when you close it? 19:38:02 No, they do not. 19:38:47 Phantom_Hoover_: Can you place the ignores in an initialization file? 19:38:56 zzo38: I donot know what you mean by quantum free will 19:39:03 Phantom_Hoover_: yes they do 19:39:03 Noöne does 19:39:12 zzo38: but I think it's not the same free will as in Conways Free will theorem 19:39:17 elliott, hmm, my ignore list was certainly clear. 19:39:30 And I ignored Mathnerd a while ago... 19:39:37 j-invariant: But I explained it a bit! Try to do the math and see if that helps. 19:39:44 zzo38: there is no math in whaty ou said. 19:40:02 elliott: There is math in what I said. 19:40:21 zzo38: what math?? 19:40:39 The two kets? 19:41:14 j-invariant: The math for quantum physics. I didn't write out all the equations but you can find them in various books or Wikipedia, and then work them with the changes I have specified to see what happens. 19:41:40 zzo38: you would have to write up this whole idea in a .txt or something - but don't do that if you don't want to 19:42:11 zzo38: unfortunately you have been unable to give a coherent explanation of the "theory" to even _near_ the detail required for anyone else to even begin to try to understand it. 19:42:18 j-invariant: Or, perhaps, a TeX document so that I can include mathematical formulas in it. 19:42:23 yes] 19:42:48 zzo38, why, exactly, do you hate LaTeX? 19:43:28 elliott: Actually you can understand it but you have to do it yourself. Not everything is explainable in words directly. Therefore you have to do it indirectly. 19:44:07 Phantom_Hoover_: I have tried LaTeX it doesn't work well. Also LaTeX is too much too many things. And even Plain TeX is slightly large, but I use Plain TeX it is OK. 19:44:19 I really liek the music on ACSMZXTO 19:45:47 j-invariant: You do? Which levels have you reached yet? (Note this is a full length game and difficult, with 90 screens. Other games I have created are short ones that are more like arcade games or level puzzle games.) 19:46:07 zzo38: that's as far as I have got - I am not good at these games at all but it is fun 19:47:27 j-invariant: Right. You could try the CGA Collection games, in which you can try for win/lose/score and try various levels and stuff, because they are a different kind of games. (You need a DOS emulator to run them) 19:47:56 (Or else, boot into FreeDOS if you don't mind doing that) 19:48:20 I don't what happens when I push the switch 19:48:40 j-invariant: What switch are you refering to? 19:48:45 zzo38: please link to a precise description of your theory 19:49:03 coppro: I don't have one yet. Sorry. 19:49:14 * pikhq would like to stab everyone who writes emulators using a plugin architecture. 19:49:26 both of them on the screen with the person who wants a flashy diamnd 19:49:46 pikhq: why pray tell 19:50:24 coppro: It makes using the emulator a royal pain, and simply *having* a plugin architecture usually compromises emulation accuracy and compatibility. 19:50:33 j-invariant: They make the doors near the flashy diamond to be passable. 19:50:41 (You need all three switches) 19:50:55 (I say "usually" because it is of course *possible* to do that right, but nobody ever does.) 19:51:41 oh but I can't read the red switch 19:52:21 j-invariant: Yes, you have done it wrong. Hint: You *need* to find the purple keycard. (Hint: It is behind the tree.) 19:52:34 in a different screen? 19:52:50 Seriously, have you *tried* Playstation emulation? 19:53:03 j-invariant: No, a tree on the same screen. 19:53:25 oh I see!! 19:53:36 But if you have touched even one switch you have missed it and have to restore the saved game file. 19:54:49 there doesn't seem to be anything to do with the purple keycard 19:55:28 j-invariant: The purple keycard is not used in this level, but it is important to go behind the tree where it is found. 19:56:01 to move the green slime somewhere? 19:56:51 j-invariant: Yes. 19:57:13 where? 19:58:19 j-invariant: Do you know how the transporters work? Or how the potions work? 19:58:44 not really no 20:00:25 OK. If a transporter is blocked (and the blocking object cannot be pushed out of the way), you are transported through to the corresponding one facing in the other direction at the other end (regardless of whether or not the other one is blocked in the pointing direction; but it must not be blocked in the opposite direction (where you end up from the other transport)). (Pushable objects can also be transported.) 20:00:35 * Phantom_Hoover_ hates it when people say "two is the only even prime" as if it's interesting. 20:01:42 Phantom_Hoover_: it is more interesting than it seems 20:01:50 Phantom_Hoover_: I saw the same thing on a Jyte claim. At first I believed it but now I think "two is the only even prime" is in fact an interesting statement there are some important theorems which do not work without considering this fact fundamentally. 20:01:57 j-invariant, how? 20:02:16 It follows trivially from the definitions of primality and evenness. 20:02:36 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes it does follow. That doesn't mean it is not important though! 20:02:46 three is the only threven prime 20:03:03 "two is the oddest prime" 20:03:05 And 5 is the only prime that ends with '5' in base 10. 20:03:40 oerjan: wat 20:03:40 Phantom_Hoover_: damn right 20:03:57 pumpkin: oh god you're in here too? 20:03:58 INFLUX 20:04:02 elliott, DENY IT AT YOUR RISK 20:04:09 7 is the only prime that ends in 7 in base 14 20:04:10 s/RISK/PERIL/ 20:04:18 <3 base 14. 20:04:25 elliott: IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE WHERE PEOPLE CARE MORE ABOUT THREE THAN TWO 20:04:43 *ALTERNATE 20:05:03 Phantom_Hoover_: Those statements are correct, and seemingly similar, but actually there is an important meaning for "2 is the only even prime" in some other mathematical stuff. 20:05:22 oerjan: threven is the best type of number 20:05:28 oerjan: can we talk about threven numbers daily 20:05:45 What about BASE 14? 20:06:00 elliott: sure we _can_ 20:06:03 GODDAMN IT WHY AREN'T THERE CAPITAL NUMBERS 20:06:14 BASE !$ JUST DOESN'T CUT IT 20:06:15 i think it is entirely physically possible 20:06:21 oerjan: let's do so 20:06:30 Phantom_Hoover_: damn base 41 20:06:54 Naw, base 14 is best. 20:07:02 It's like base 10 except more seveny. 20:07:34 seven is the most severe prime 20:08:29 Seven is underappreciated. 20:09:07 brb 20:09:09 in ages 20:09:11 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:10:25 -!- A_time_warp_to_2 has joined. 20:10:31 Goddamn it. 20:10:42 -!- A_time_warp_to_2 has changed nick to Atimewarpto2020. 20:10:48 * Atimewarpto2020 opens 20:11:13 -!- elliott has joined. 20:11:21 Hey guys, I'm back! 20:11:24 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit). 20:11:28 * Atimewarpto2020 closes 20:11:30 -!- Atimewarpto2020 has left (?). 20:12:00 :Atimewarpto2020!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com :elliott!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com Look 20:12:09 zzo38: SSHHH 20:12:23 A phantom ho! 20:12:27 HOW STRANGE 20:12:31 Same as :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com 20:13:01 zzo38, actually, that 1 is an l. 20:13:45 Phantom_Hoover_: I do not know what you are refering to. 20:14:34 zzo38, how fortunate! I have no idea what you're talking about. 20:14:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 20:14:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 20:14:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:15:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 20:16:38 greetings, Phantom__Hoover obviously totally unrelated to Phantom_Hoover 20:17:00 NickServ refuses to let me group this nick. 20:17:07 Dunno why. 20:18:16 -!- Phantom__Hoover has left (?). 20:18:19 zzo38: I think your game is too hard for me but I will play more tommorow 20:18:53 j-invariant: Yes it is difficult and you might not understand well without some experience with MegaZeux. 20:20:58 Try the CGA Collection if you want to try some small games (not full length games), such as Star Stacker and so on. 20:21:57 'ma; 20:21:59 okay 20:23:10 I did make some games with Game Maker but I should rewrite them in C instead or something like that. Or possibly write a converter into a similar but free format. Such as: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/xnazzyball.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/DiskCatch2.png 20:24:00 Here is the CGA Collection files in case you are interested in the DOS files: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip 20:24:53 zzo38: the first one looks especially good 20:25:06 I don't know how you ahve the energy to write all these programs 20:25:20 my problem with programming is I give up quite early on 20:25:23 j-invariant: You mean of the screenshots? 20:25:32 nyes 20:26:09 (The icons are public domain, I just made a game of it. Also, it is possible to have multiple pieces in one place, so it cannot be done with ASCII mode.) 20:26:21 zzo38: if these are EXE files I don't think I can run them on ubuntu 20:26:25 j-invariant: Try running it in Wine if you want to, but I'm not sure it will work. 20:26:34 nevermind I will try them on a DOS emulator 20:26:56 Try the CGA Collection games in a DOS emulator. (The screenshots are for Windows games) 20:27:18 If you make any new levels for any of the CGA Collection games, please post your levels! 20:29:35 * Ilari goes and tries those CGA collection games first in DOSBox and then in rerecording x86 emulator... 20:30:15 hi 20:30:31 cheater99: Hay you! Stop cheating, please! 20:30:40 no cheating allowed!! 20:32:46 zzo38: this game FATHER.EXE made me laugh 20:34:04 j-invariant: Yes. It isn't really a very good game though, the others are better. But at least it can make you laugh. So, I did include it anyways. 20:35:17 j-invariant: Can you guess what you are supposed to do in the games which I posted screenshots, without playing these games? 20:35:54 j-invariant: You may look at CGACOLL.DOC (a plain text file) for more information about some of the games in the CGA Collection. 20:37:33 no I couldn't guess 20:38:57 j-invariant: In the first screenshot, your piece is a spider you have to pick up one of each suit. And don't get killed by a rock! 20:39:09 http://www.jetpower.co.uk/c5home.htm 20:39:19 JET-POWERED SINCLAIR C5 20:39:23 I WANT ONE 20:39:30 In the second screenshot, your piece is the white ball. You can move the white ball to make rectangle with each corner on the same color, to make hole and catch the colored balls. If colored balls collide with white ball then you lose a life. 20:40:03 In the third screenshot, you have to move the cursor to catch the disks and avoid touching skulls. The pieces all move by themself in various direction and speeds. 20:48:10 -!- Hilbert has joined. 20:49:21 Phantom_Hoover, what top speed? 20:49:34 Vorpal, no idea. 20:49:39 ah 20:49:42 jet engine mph 20:51:34 j-invariant: Have you added any levels to the existing games in CGA Collection? 20:52:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:52:49 no 20:53:19 j-invariant: Did you know, the MUTCHNAM game has ten billion built-in levels (yes, really, it does). 20:53:35 ??? 20:54:10 i've just encountered zombie spawner 20:54:14 what do? 20:54:16 Have you tried any of the games other than FATHER, yet? 20:54:35 zzo38: some of them 20:54:43 most of htem I could not figure out how to play 20:55:06 j-invariant: Which ones? Any opinion? Read CGACOLL.DOC for some instructions about the game. You can also ask me specific questions. 20:59:44 Please note that STARWARS is a 2-players game. You need someone else on the same computer in order to play. (The others are all 1-players) 21:03:18 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:05:41 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 21:12:58 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:27:36 zzo38, write an AI! 21:27:46 Which uses quantum free will! 21:29:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life. 21:30:27 Gregor, that statement made me suspicious. What is it? 21:30:42 The greatest six seconds of YOUR life, if you watch it. 21:32:33 * Phantom_Hoover watches ut 21:32:36 *it 21:32:54 GreaseMonkey: Greatest six seconds of my life. 21:32:58 Gregor: ^ 21:33:07 DAMMIT SMUXI 21:33:45 perhaps you could invest in implanting a nifty feature that xchat has? 21:33:54 "sort by last person talking" or something 21:34:31 Phantom_Hoover: I cannot write an AI that uses quantum free will, although I might be able to simulate it in a turing machine connected to a pure random number generator. However, turing machine is not even possible to be constructed in any real computer, only approximations can. (Also, I am not good enough at it to write such a program anyways) 21:34:52 zzo38, I was, in fact, mocking you. 21:35:29 GreaseMonkey: AKA "law of least surprise". 21:36:13 speaking of AI... do you know of an accurate way to filter that one particular troll's text in the Homestuck MSPA? 21:36:34 if you know the story... i'm talking about the one which has 8s all through her text and stuff 21:40:37 pikhq, well. 21:41:08 It can be harder to work out exactly which tab-completion is first with last-spoke, but you tend to get the one you want. 21:42:14 Phantom_Hoover: Last-spoke is generally going to be what you want, and it will usually have *unsurprising* behavior. 21:42:33 Oh, right. 21:42:39 I agree. 21:43:08 Whereas alphabetical sorting is often *very* surprising. 21:51:13 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 21:53:13 -!- Hilbert has joined. 21:55:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life. <-- I don't get it. Why what? 21:55:32 Vorpal does not know the joke. 21:55:50 Phantom_Hoover, oh wait is it "why did the chicken cross the road"... 21:55:54 Yes. 21:56:04 Phantom_Hoover, reason I didn't get it chicken != rooster 21:56:30 Nor does Vorpal know about chickens. 21:57:20 wait, it is in English isn't it? 21:57:21 hm 21:57:31 Phantom_Hoover, false friend across languages 21:57:36 Female chickens are hens, male chickens are roosters, both are chickens. 21:57:49 Otherwise we'd have no species name :P 21:58:22 Gregor, in Swedish kyckling (which sounds pretty close to chicken) means a chicken in the state when it has not yet grown up. When it is small and yellow and fluffy and so on 21:58:36 That's a chick :P 21:58:44 Gregor, in Swedish we use the name "höna" (close to "hen") for the species 21:59:05 It's ALMOST as if our languages aren't very closely related. 21:59:36 Gregor, more like they are but someone used a cross linked cable. 21:59:41 X-D 22:00:19 Here in Finland it's "kana" for the species in general or the female animals (so chicken/hen), and "kukko" for a rooster/cock. 22:00:33 fizzie, yes, but Finnish doesn't count. 22:00:34 fizzie, and for young birds? 22:00:43 Not being Indo-European and all that. 22:02:46 Vorpal: Well, "tipu", but that could be some non-chick little bird too. (It's also one verb form of "tippua", to drop. Which I guess is a slightly colloquial variant of "pudota", also to drop.) 22:03:15 Cf. pääsiäistipu, http://www.nutriciababy.fi/puuhanurkka/fi_FI/paasiainen/_files/78306002090656095/default/tipu.jpg 22:03:16 It's also a somewhat dated word for "chick" as in "girl". 22:03:40 That too, though I don't think I've ever called a person that. 22:04:10 Yes, it's quite dated. I don't think I've ever even heard it said. :-P 22:04:34 Maybe in some olden-times Finnish movie. 22:05:02 Incidentally, is the easter chick thing an international thing? Mostly I hear about the rabbit everywhere. 22:05:47 uh can't say I recall any easter chick 22:05:49 try google? 22:05:55 I guess the bunny just gets better press. 22:06:04 Page 1 of about 126,000 results (0.07 seconds). 22:06:05 it does make more sense than bunny when you think about it though 22:06:15 I don't hear much about easter chicks here in Finland either. :-P 22:06:19 Usually when I think of easter chicks, I think of godawfully bad pseudomarshmallows. 22:06:26 Over two million results for the bunny. 22:06:42 it is an easter rabbit in Sweden 22:06:51 Deewiant: Oh, we used to have those in 'rairuoho'. 22:07:08 I don't think we ever did. 22:07:17 We have the egg-rabbit too, but the chick is also easter-related. 22:07:40 wait, rabbit might be wrong word 22:07:44 * Vorpal blames google translate 22:08:08 Rabbit is the right word in every context except this :P 22:08:08 hare vs. kanin in Swedish. I'm not sure what hare translates to 22:08:16 it is larger 22:08:31 Wait, you have an Easter HARE? 22:08:48 We have an Easter "bunny" (which is a six-year-old's word for "rabbit") 22:08:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryegrass doesn't list our "traditional Easter decoration" use at all. :/ 22:08:52 ah yes the word is hare in english too 22:08:54 right 22:09:18 Gregor, yes we have an Easter hare. Could beat your bunny to pulp I bet ;) 22:09:29 (wait, that sounded so awfully wrong) 22:09:34 Ours is a bunny ("pääsiäispupu") too. 22:10:15 How many games are played with a scoring side and a non-scoring side (or more than one of one or of both)? 22:10:26 also compare pronouncing påskhare and påskkanin. The latter just becomes silly. You need to make a pause in the middle kind of thing 22:10:43 påskeharen in norwegian too. although i had the impression it's really an american import... 22:10:52 zzo38: Nearly every game in the family of badminton, volleyball, tennis, or other "net" games are played like that. 22:10:52 oerjan, yes I think it is 22:12:07 Fikipedia says in Switzerland they have an easter-egg-cuckoo, and in some parts of Germany a goose, a stork or a fox. 22:12:17 we had witches at Easter traditionally 22:12:21 fizzie, Fiki? 22:12:28 Vorpal: fi.wikipedia. 22:12:31 ah 22:12:33 I shortcutted a bit. 22:12:50 (Had the Finnish bunny article open.) 22:13:21 * Gregor once-again trolls the channel with http://codu.org/wiki/N-in-a-row%20game 22:13:22 Gregor: um i thought both sides could score in most of those games :/ 22:13:37 oerjan: Yeah, but in any given volley there's a scoring side and a non-scoring side. 22:14:06 Do any cards games do? 22:15:00 In any card game where players take turns you could consider each turn having one scoring and the rest non-scoring sides. 22:15:25 -!- Hilbert_ has joined. 22:15:43 it's hilbert! 22:15:48 arisen from the grave! 22:16:24 fizzie: Yes it can, but is there more explicit cases where you do that in many turns? (And anyways even in card game where players take turns, it is not necessary only the player taking turns who is scoring) 22:16:36 Gregor, make f into whether or not the Bifro-equivalent Brainfuck program halts. 22:16:57 Phantom_Hoover: Har-durp-har. 22:17:11 Wait, that's not very good. 22:17:25 -!- Hilbert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:17:26 -!- Hilbert_ has changed nick to Hilbert. 22:17:29 Since you have either 0 or 1 turns. 22:17:49 -!- azaq231 has joined. 22:18:37 Obviously the best possible function is monotonically decreasing. 22:19:01 I can't recall examples offhand, but there's such a huge variety of board games, I'm sure some of them have scoring mechanisms like that. 22:19:02 Phantom_Hoover, what if you can't decide if it halts or not? 22:19:30 Phantom_Hoover, it could mean waiting forever, no? 22:19:32 I know of one card game where only one side is scoring side for a long time before you switch. 22:19:37 while test running it 22:19:46 Vorpal, that's the *point*. 22:19:52 Dominion's (a card game) single-player turns can sometimes take a while (they have three phases), but perhaps not quite "a long time". 22:20:02 Phantom_Hoover, sounds like a bad point 22:20:09 brb 22:20:11 fizzie: Not what I meant. 22:20:19 But good point, though. 22:20:34 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:21:08 According to recent report (less than 48 hours old), APINIC has 44 509 184 addresses in its pool... About 11M addresses to go until it should allocate :-) 22:22:11 And in Arkham Horror either all players go insane or win the game, so there's not exactly a scoring side (or a particular winner) at all. 22:22:16 Ilari: Which we can expect to be how long? 22:25:29 elliottt is not here 22:25:30 Dangi 22:25:36 Incidentally, I recently played one game which needed one person to handle "running" the game, and that was done so that each person took a turn being that one, and before starting his/her turn selected one of the other players; at the end of his/her turn (when it came time for the scoring for that round) he/she got the same amount of points as the player he/she selected got. 22:25:42 Also, how did I sleep from 7AM to 5PM 22:26:35 Sgeo__: a mere 10 hours! 22:27:16 darn reddit is not loading again 22:27:19 -!- azaq23 has joined. 22:27:24 -!- Sgeo__ has changed nick to Sgeo. 22:29:00 -!- azaq231 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:29:28 Ilari, so why have you got such interest in IPv4 exhaustion? 22:29:58 it's because ipv4 killed his parents 22:30:27 In the card game Armchair Cricket, the scoring side remains scoring side until they either declare or lose ten wickets, whichever comes first. The other side cannot score even when it is their turn to play a card. There are different variants as to what happens when the deck is exhausted. 22:33:58 For APNIC, at the same time, APNIC had 4463681625587712 IPv6 /64s in its pool... 22:35:28 Just generic "pass the popcorn". :-) 22:35:40 (not that I actually eat popcorn...) :-) 22:36:48 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 22:36:51 -!- azaq231 has joined. 22:37:46 According to recent report (less than 48 hours old), APINIC has 44 509 184 addresses in its pool... About 11M addresses to go until it should allocate :-) <-- what is the current estimate on date for ipv4 running out? 22:37:50 globally I mean 22:38:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:41:43 -!- elliott has joined. 22:45:20 Can you tell me whether I wrote the exception similar to font exception correctly? 22:50:02 Vorpal: Oh, completely coincidentally, but since it involves your country... we'll be visiting Stockholm next Saturday. 22:50:12 -!- Hilbert has joined. 22:50:37 fizzie: AVOID VORPAL AT ALL COSTS 22:50:45 Hilbert: got a hotel room free? 22:51:12 (I'm assuming you want to be keeping track as to what sort of riffraff enters/exits your country.) 22:51:42 12:12:23 A phantom ho! 22:51:43 :D 22:51:44 elliott: I wouldn't recognize a Vorpal if one bit me, anyway. 22:51:58 fizzie: They're really stupid and hate TNT. 22:52:06 Can't miss 'em. 22:52:32 fizzie, easy to recognise fizzies from what I heard though. 22:52:59 Yeah, I've heard all kinds of rumours too. 22:53:05 fizzie, not that I'm anywhere near Stockholm though 22:54:24 I think our plan involved a visit at det där kungliga slottet of yours; having no royalty or royalty-related stuff of our own, us Finns have to "appropriate" from neighbours. 22:54:48 12:54:10 i've just encountered zombie spawner 22:54:49 12:54:14 what do? 22:54:52 nooga: destroy it if you wish, loot the chest 22:54:55 you found a dungeon 22:55:09 sure, reddit, try to appease me by changing to a funnier heavy load picture 22:55:27 13:29:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life. 22:55:30 was sceptical 22:55:32 but yup Gregor 22:55:34 you're riht 22:55:35 oerjan, eh? 22:55:35 best six seconds 22:55:36 *right 22:56:14 oerjan, what was the old on and what is the new one? 22:56:15 Vorpal: reddit isn't loading. but the "sorry we're under heavy load" picture just changed to a new one. 22:56:45 made by newly reddit famous Sure_Ill_Draw_That, apparently 22:57:06 oerjan, it loads for me 22:57:09 oerjan, so I can't check 22:57:15 Vorpal: try DDoSing 22:57:19 elliott, .... 22:57:36 ...still not loading 22:57:51 ah now i see it 22:58:00 or is it 22:58:15 i conclude that sure_ill_draw_that has a crushing fetish 22:58:23 it is the only explain 22:58:23 elliott, how do you prevent the mouse from leaving the MC window? 22:58:31 elliott: he's done it before? 22:58:35 Sgeo: um it does that automatically 22:58:36 oerjan: nope 22:58:38 oerjan: sample size of 1 22:58:44 elliott, not for me 22:58:47 O KAY 22:58:51 Sgeo: then you fail. try linux 22:59:17 Sgeo, did you just place a sign? 22:59:19 Could it have something to do with the old version? 22:59:31 Vorpal, I don't have a legal copy yet, so no, I'm not online 22:59:34 Oh, no 22:59:36 what 22:59:44 what has legal copy to do with signs? 22:59:53 what you mentioned to me happens sometimes when I just placed a sign, a click in the window solves it. 22:59:53 Thought you were asking if some sign you saw on your server was mine 23:00:09 nope 23:00:32 psht like Sgeo will get into our server :D 23:00:37 it is now closed to everyone who isn't a finn 23:00:41 damned finn privilege 23:00:48 elliott, is it? 23:00:51 yes 23:00:57 elliott, are you still on it? 23:00:58 What, do you think I'm going to bomb everything? 23:01:05 Vorpal: yes, just no extra people can come on 23:01:21 Opening/closing the inventory helps in mouse-capturing for me sometimes when it loses it. 23:01:53 Also, when I last saved, I had no coal, and ran out of fuel for my emergency lighting furnace 23:01:55 Vorpal: the old picture was the reddit alien carrying a stone block by the pyramids 23:02:03 oerjan, ah 23:02:06 And I heard footsteps that weren 23:02:09 weren't mne 23:02:10 mine 23:02:37 Sgeo: furnaces don't light 23:02:40 so lol 23:02:40 well 23:02:44 not enough to stop monsters i don't think 23:03:02 Wait, so my idea for ecological housing is unsound? 23:03:02 :( 23:03:37 Logs set on fire burn indefinitely if surrounded by the proper sort of blocks. 23:03:54 That gives a reasonable amount of light, I think. 23:04:07 "Furnaces are very useful for providing light if you have wood but no coal to make torches with." 23:04:08 Hm. 23:04:12 Still seems silly though. 23:04:22 proper sort of blocks? 23:04:38 Sgeo: furnaces don't light 23:04:41 Erm, yes they do. 23:05:01 Yes yes so they do. 23:05:02 Active furnace seems to emit one level less light than a torch. 23:05:11 Bit of a waste though. 23:05:41 My cursor is not staying in the window at all 23:05:51 Sgeo: Surround a log by (say) cobblestone, set it on fire; a permanent fireplace out of renewable materials. 23:06:07 fizzie, awesome 23:06:20 Wait, where do you get the fire from? 23:06:40 Sgeo: Flint and steel... 23:06:42 (Or LAVA) 23:06:45 Uh, well, flint and steel usually. But you only need that one. 23:06:50 (Note: Lava is not renewable.) 23:07:04 You can go and put the lava back, though. 23:07:13 But the bucket needs iron. 23:07:22 lofr: 23:07:23 http://www.exploringbinary.com/php-hangs-on-numeric-value-2-2250738585072011e-308/ 23:07:32 and better yet.. after you read the whole thing, read comment 5. 23:08:01 Possibly you could just build your place around a natural lava lake/fall you don't touch. 23:08:03 Well, a cost to the environment of 3 iron ore that ends up giving so much back.... 23:08:26 Gives cobblestone, and fire, and 23:08:39 fizzie, I did not even think of that 23:09:42 Or you could just nuke everything. 23:13:41 elliott: mc has nukes? :D 23:13:49 oerjan: TNT is close enough 23:13:52 oerjan: you can even fire it 23:13:54 (with other TNT) 23:14:03 flies quite far too 23:14:20 oerjan: you should start playing! then you'll do absolutely _nothing_ else in a day 23:15:19 MC needs spaceships 23:15:26 i doubt my hands will cooperate with that for very long 23:15:27 And airplanes 23:15:31 I know there's a mod 23:15:36 I''d like something better than a mod 23:16:34 Sgeo: Better than a mod? 23:17:10 Not crappily done like in MoveCraft, and native to MC 23:17:29 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:18:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:19:08 Sgeo: How's MoveCraft crappy, and how does nativeness matter 23:23:25 elliott, MoveCraft sucks because it can't move the ROU efficiently! 23:23:29 23:23:38 apart from that. 23:23:59 Also because it empties chests when you use it and it can't even move a TNT cannon without being weird. 23:26:24 I mean, how am I meant to man the HHI war machine *now*? 23:26:55 Phantom_Hoover: As a faithful HHI employee ... I am sort of relieved that you failed. 23:27:26 elliott, that's sedition! 23:27:34 What would I have possibly done? 23:27:56 Phantom_Hoover: Blown up everything? 23:28:26 elliott, what things do you have that I would have blown up? 23:29:32 Phantom_Hoover: I LIKE TO LIVE IN A WORLD WITHOUT TOO MUCH CARNAGE 23:29:32 So what's this about PHP having its own analogue to the Top Secret SMP Bug? 23:29:35 -!- cheater99 has joined. 23:29:42 A PREFER A MODERATE AMOUNT OF CARNAGE AT MOST 23:30:02 elliott, what about no carnage? 23:30:18 Top Secret SMP Bug? 23:30:27 CARNAGE 23:30:37 CARNAGE FOR THE CARNAGE GOD 23:30:43 Sgeo, it's Top Secret because of the carnage that would ensue if it was made publi. 23:30:46 *public 23:30:58 Phantom_Hoover, good idea against PHP 23:31:13 Vorpal: Carnage is great. 23:31:24 elliott, but only in small amounts? 23:31:26 Basically, it's possible to crash *any* SMP server if you can see the sky in it. 23:31:39 http://cs-people.bu.edu/stevec/cs101/01summer/forms_calc.html 23:31:39 Phantom_Hoover, don't reveal too much 23:31:59 I want to see if I can crash this but I don't have the evil. 23:32:53 Phantom_Hoover, "have the evil", does that mean "I don't know how" or "I'm not evil enough"? 23:32:57 Welp, it doesn't work. 23:33:30 Phantom_Hoover, I'm assuming that that bug will be fixed soonn? 23:33:38 Sgeo, not a chance. 23:33:39 Phantom_Hoover: you mean it doesn't crash or that it does? 23:33:45 Phantom_Hoover, lolwat? 23:33:45 Vorpal: re don't reveal too much: fizzie has explained it all in channel before 23:33:50 oerjan, it doesn't work as a calculator. 23:33:52 Sgeo: There is no way we are telling Notch. 23:33:57 elliott, ah 23:34:00 Sgeo: One, it is useful when used maturely on our server. 23:34:00 Sgeo, we're keeping it secret. 23:34:00 Phantom_Hoover: anyway it supposedly only crashes on 32-bit machines 23:34:07 Sgeo: Two, Notch is impossibly bad at coding. 23:34:26 It's incredibly unlikely he wouldn't do something very stupid when fixing a bug that basically undermines the entire server architecture. 23:34:33 Phantom_Hoover: ah. 23:34:49 If someone else figures it out we'll tell Notch all we know but before then it's probably a very bad idea. 23:34:51 There is an appeal in making it public and watching the world burn, but we could be completely screwed by Notch afterwards. 23:35:02 elliott, see /msg 23:35:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:37:11 I think I've seen comments that suggest it might get accidentally fixed at some point anyway. 23:37:45 (In his stale TODO list or somewhere.) 23:37:58 fizzie, nooooooooooooo 23:38:16 In revenge for wrecking our teleporter, I suggest we murder him. 23:38:20 There's quite many entried that say "before beta" that are completely not done on that list. :p 23:39:46 "Thwart hacking!" 23:39:55 Vague... 23:40:01 We could just write a teleportamating plugin. 23:40:05 So which one should we worry about? 23:40:06 It'd be less laggy too. :p 23:40:53 http://www.toodledo.com/views/public.php?id=td4b49fbf9c05a0 23:40:55 We do have a server-side teleporter already, if someone'd just motivate ineiros to write down the allowed destinations. 23:41:12 fizzie, I don't see anything that fits. 23:41:44 Phantom_Hoover: Click on those funny icons that give you more detailed descriptions. 23:42:03 The intuitive page-with-red-block ones. 23:42:17 Ah, right. 23:42:32 fizzie: I mean an arbitrary-coord teleporter. 23:42:41 fizzie: Also it's not writing, you actually have to go there and say /addkit or something. 23:43:00 elliott, vulnerable to the same bug, surely? 23:43:26 elliott: I think you can just edit the flat text file too. 23:43:42 Though the command way is I guess the official way. 23:44:08 elliott: has that sshc guy said anything since? 23:44:10 Hard to guesstimate Y values and orientation and so on. 23:44:12 We could just write a teleportamating plugin. <-- likely a heck of a lot more reliable too! 23:44:35 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:44:52 Phantom_Hoover: I don't see why. 23:44:57 It doesn't _have_ to send all the chunks in-between down. 23:44:58 fizzie: Also it's not writing, you actually have to go there and say /addkit or something. <-- no, it is editing a file 23:45:00 Nether travel doesn't for instance. 23:45:03 When you return from Nether. 23:45:10 elliott, hmm. 23:45:10 It just generates the one chunk and gives it to you, locally. 23:45:12 at least that is what I did for my local test server 23:45:22 So all it has to do is x=foo; y=foo; if (!chunkexists()) genchunk(); sendchunk(); 23:45:25 *z=foo; 23:45:36 So the bug comes from the fact that it's trying to squeeze all of the intermediate chunks down your connection? 23:46:02 Phantom_Hoover, or for having to process them that rapidly even 23:46:07 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:46:29 I really should try it with some *really* huge coördinates at some point. 23:46:44 Mrf, how can I show the dynamically linked libraries on OS X... 23:47:20 On a local server, obviously/ 23:47:29 Phantom_Hoover: Aww, I thought you meant on the server. 23:48:35 Here's a difference between Minecraft and Active Worlds: People built stuff in AW's heyday, almost 10 years ago or more. Almost all of it still stands, to that day. The stuff you build in Minecraft... won't. 23:48:36 I mean, given that we found Cthulhu at a distance which was practically *reachable*. 23:48:51 Sgeo, what the hell? 23:49:05 What's destroying it? Server shutdown due to boredom? 23:49:11 Phantom_Hoover, yes 23:49:22 Sgeo: Guess what, AW's servers will go down one day too. 23:49:24 Who's going to keep running private servers 10 years from now? 23:49:35 Sgeo: And I bet there were quite a few data losses in the early days of AW. 23:49:56 I wonder if I can make shutup somehow convey the messages more annoyingly. 23:50:27 Is shutup still working? 23:50:47 Yes 23:51:00 Yes. 23:51:40 Phantom_Hoover, Cthulhu? 23:52:01 Sgeo, IN JOKE 23:52:04 GO AWAY LOSER 23:52:39 Sgeo, from the Lovecraft mythos 23:52:49 Vorpal, I know that 23:53:02 They said they found Cthulhu in MC? I guess that's related to the bug? 23:53:16 Sgeo, in joke! 23:55:19 how did Sgeo see Cthulhu 23:55:30 I mean, given that we found Cthulhu at a distance which was practically *reachable*. 23:55:31 elliott, he didn't? 23:55:55 oh you meant the mention 23:56:00 yeah Phantom_Hoover said it 23:56:11 cthulhu is everywhere you want to see 23:56:13 But yes, 100km is not impossibly far in MC terms. 23:56:30 Phantom_Hoover, sssh! 23:56:33 You can easily make 10km in less than an hour. 23:56:45 -target-cc-opt darwin \ 23:56:45 '-I/usr/local/include 23:56:45 -I/opt/local/include 23:56:46 Phantom_Hoover, depends on terrain 23:56:47 -I/sw/include' \ 23:56:49 ugh 23:56:51 TODO: fix that 23:57:14 elliott, build system of something? of what? 23:57:20 Vorpal, over 10km terrain evens out. 23:57:27 Vorpal: from the mlton binary build 23:58:07 Phantom_Hoover, anyway it was more than 100 km. Both in distance and in manhattan distance 23:58:43 Vorpal, I'm basing this on time to (4000,4000) anyway. 23:58:53 Phantom_Hoover, right 23:59:14 * elliott tries out how new mlton 23:59:17 without that fix, but 23:59:21 that can be a patch in a minute 23:59:26 Phantom_Hoover, I guess if you just run. Sure. But you end up going around mountains and so on 23:59:44 and that is if you aren't out searching at the time 23:59:52 (which I were)