00:00:03 then it might be productive use of his time at least, since CA are so very very sexy 00:00:36 CACACACACACACACACACA 00:00:42 that's my catchphrase 00:00:50 when i roam the street 00:00:51 s 00:00:56 sometimes i just go all CACACACACACACACACACA 00:01:56 j-invariant: actually i probably couldn't lecture all night, since the first nontrivial thing you usually do about CA is a theorem i actually don't know how to prove :D 00:01:59 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:02:02 injectivity => surjectivity 00:02:16 some sort of pigeonhole argument, but i haven't filled in the details, ever 00:02:21 * quintopia everts elliott's spheres without pinching or poking holes 00:02:50 what's everting 00:03:58 oklopol, something you do in a fun, cute, happy game 00:04:30 hmm, actually that injectivity => surjectivity thing is really obvious 00:04:34 oklopol: you know when you stick your hand up your ass and pull the rest of you outside? 00:04:37 that's eversion 00:04:37 doesn't use any topology 00:04:42 do you do that often 00:05:05 erm, well apart from the fact that if there's a configuration without a preimage, then there's a finite pattern without a preimage, in the obvious sense 00:05:38 yeah it cleanses my body in ways western science just can't 00:05:46 erm 00:05:48 medicine 00:06:14 i'm actually going to go now, before i start proving that theorem 00:06:25 is that okay? 00:06:38 okay oklopol I will aks you about this in future thogu 00:07:12 go for it 00:07:27 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram). 00:07:53 or you can just follow our course! http://users.utu.fi/jkari/ca/ 00:07:54 :P 00:08:21 -!- variable has joined. 00:08:30 the lecture notes are pretty good, although topology is used less explicitly, at least in the beginning 00:08:37 i should come visit oklopol and embarrass him at his uni 00:08:46 how would you embarrass me? 00:09:14 oklopol: so this one time he was on irc ... 00:09:17 :D 00:09:27 repeat 500 times 00:09:32 many people know my irc nick 00:09:39 yes but they don't know where the logs are 00:09:41 nor have the patience to read them all 00:09:43 i suppose 00:09:48 PENIS PENIS PENIS 00:09:51 PENIS PENIS PENIS 00:09:53 PENIS PENIS PENIS 00:09:55 PENIS PENIS PENIS 00:10:07 I FEEL SO FREE RIGHT NOW 00:10:10 FREE LIKE A FUCKING BIRD 00:10:15 freeee bird 00:10:18 now I have to listen to it 00:10:22 what's that? 00:10:25 FREE BIRD 00:10:25 j-invariant: but free bird is a terrible song 00:10:30 elliott: I like it 00:10:56 * quintopia will be in helsinki on jun 10. anyone wanna hang out? 00:11:26 maybe i could come see you and fizzie at the same time 00:11:30 OK 00:11:31 GUYS 00:11:35 KERNEL HACKING TIME 00:11:42 my sync() calls are hanging up 00:11:50 this is stalling my whole ubuntu 00:12:11 * Sgeo watches another Eversion LP 00:12:16 this happened only today only this once when i unplugged a usb drive and plugged in another one 00:12:25 maybe Deewiant as well, but i feel Deewiant is a superior person to me, so i'm not sure that'd be as much fun. 00:12:26 oklopol: tell me what to do 00:12:38 i do strace sync and it hangs on this: 00:12:40 " Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?" <<< good morning <-- when, and context? 00:12:41 i always think oh Deewiant won't know anything about this thing 00:12:44 sync( 00:12:44 and then Deewiant just like 00:12:45 butts in 00:12:47 with his superior knowledge 00:12:48 so rude 00:12:50 this is like the last line 00:12:55 yeah that thing 00:12:57 elliott: tell me how to hax this 00:13:05 Vorpal, screwed up sleep cycles. 00:13:10 Sgeo, ah 00:13:11 right 00:13:23 * Sgeo tests Vorpal for alzheimer's 00:13:28 * Sgeo cannot spell 00:13:47 Sgeo, I slept for a few hours 00:13:51 just woke up again 00:14:01 it is 01:14 here now 00:14:04 Vorpal: i tend to assume people remember the context of every line 00:14:08 what's alzheimer's 00:14:22 irl, i tend to spontaneously continue conversations i've had weeks ago 00:14:28 elliott, associated with old people, loss of memory, fatal, Pratchett has it. 00:14:33 elliott: i dunno, i forgot 00:14:34 Probably spelled incorrectly. 00:14:39 Sgeo: huh? 00:14:42 Sgeo: what are you talking about? 00:15:02 elliott, I hate you. 00:15:04 Sgeo, my grandmother (on my father's side) has it too. 00:15:09 [Note: Not really] 00:15:10 Sgeo: what? what did i say 00:15:11 i haven't said anything 00:15:16 my grandparents are free from alzheimer's 00:15:24 the punchline is they're dead 00:15:26 Vorpal, same here [grandmother on father's side] 00:16:02 the last discworld novel had better be fucking awesome 00:16:12 like if it's shit because of, you know, alzheimer's 00:16:14 NO SYMPATHY 00:16:28 go out on a bang, asshole. 00:16:29 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:16:37 elliott, didn't you read it? 00:16:42 the last 00:16:42 it was pretty good 00:16:43 as in, before he dies 00:16:45 which will be soon 00:16:46 elliott doesn't read anything 00:16:51 hm 00:16:55 elliott, ah 00:17:05 elliott, now that is not very nice of you 00:17:16 what isn't? 00:17:17 his condition is deteriorating and he's already said he's going to commit suicide before it becomes too bad, so i'm just being practical here 00:17:28 elliott: i think he meant the no sympathy thing 00:17:30 it's not fair to, like, leave us without tying up all the loose ends and shit with the best novel ever 00:17:31 but checked anyway 00:17:36 are there any swedes? i'll be in stockholm that same week 00:17:40 yes 00:17:44 Vorpal 00:17:46 and olsner 00:17:46 quintopia: avoid Vorpal at all costs 00:17:48 go visit olsner 00:17:51 both would very much like to meet you 00:17:51 and uh firefly 00:17:54 'kay 00:17:59 and why do you travel so much? 00:18:03 Vorpal probably treats his house like Mount Vorpal 00:18:12 quintopia, I'm not even near Stockholm. :P 00:18:24 yeah Vorpal didn't even give me his address 00:18:25 see, that's good 00:18:26 go where olsner is 00:18:38 aweshum 00:18:45 I have no clue where he lives 00:18:54 i travel as much as i can cuz i love travel 00:18:59 doesn't matter, just far away from Vorpal most likely 00:19:00 oklopol, well to be fair I don't have your either (and don't really want it) 00:19:04 which is what's important 00:19:15 oklopol's address is- GAK! 00:19:33 elliott: should be as easy to avoid vorpal as it is to avoid you 00:19:36 Vorpal: i'm not saying you should give it, i'm just saying you're crazily protective of your house 00:19:53 quintopia: why avoid me i'm amazing 00:19:57 oklopol: sorta like mount vorpal 00:20:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:20:05 oklopol, no.. not really 00:20:22 what possible reason could you have for not giving me your address? 00:20:31 i just gave you my address today, you even asked for it 00:20:41 elliott: lay odds on us getting along? 00:20:43 oklopol, hah not in MC :P 00:20:51 quintopia: 0, but it's irrelevant, everyone should meet me 00:21:02 I DON'T SEE DIFFERENCE 00:21:06 elliott: even vorpal? 00:21:07 oklopol: omg where are you in mc 00:21:09 you didn't answer, what reason could you have? 00:21:11 quintopia: yes, so i can kill him 00:21:27 okay, even more reason for me to avoid you :P 00:21:31 oklopol, uh? me? 00:21:36 quintopia: just Vorpal 00:21:38 won't kill anyone else 00:21:44 elliott, no I wouldn't 00:21:48 elliott: i just told Vorpal, since he seemed like a likely person not to do anything annoying, while still keeping the place unseen from the majority so i can be in peace 00:21:55 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:21:59 elliott, I get along great with everyone but you and PH. 00:22:31 i get along with people who like good beer 00:22:38 oklopol: i don't do anything annoying intentionally unless it's to Vorpal :) 00:22:40 now it's time for me to go catch a movie 00:22:46 Vorpal: yes, you! 00:22:51 oklopol: like this one time, i set deewiant's house on fire 00:23:02 oklopol, oh nice. *bows* 00:23:04 -!- variable has joined. 00:23:05 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:23:09 oklopol: and when i was cleaning it up with lava it made a gigantic cobble monolith 00:23:12 oklopol: with lava and water inside 00:23:14 oklopol: fun times 00:23:28 oklopol: that happened when i tried to burn the leaves of a tree away 00:23:29 with lava 00:23:33 the leaves kinda drooped over the house a bit 00:23:35 :D 00:23:36 Vorpal: no i mean the question was for you :D 00:23:36 why would you not me the address! 00:23:48 oklopol, which question now again? 00:23:54 oh THAT one 00:23:55 oklopol: but uh if you don't let me cut down trees near yours it'll be totally safe 00:23:56 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:24:17 oklopol, well I think you accidentally a verb there 00:24:44 oklopol, don't trust elliott. He can easily mess up without that 00:24:51 yawn 00:24:56 but there's no magic if i just let everyone come see it every now and then 00:25:14 oklopol: i can just use mcmap + a walking bot to find it :) 00:25:21 go for it 00:25:26 elliott, nice idea 00:25:36 oklopol: but why don't we optimise it, together 00:25:38 by telling me the result 00:26:07 because the point is to play the game, not to obtain goals as fast as possible 00:26:36 http://hpaste.org/42994/dmesg 00:26:37 WAT DO 00:27:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:27:14 cheater00, check what 192.168.178.1 does 00:27:22 :-\ 00:27:32 i'm talking about the hanging sync() 00:27:38 cheater00, why the sysrq stuff in there 00:27:52 ah 00:27:55 cheater00, kernel version? 00:28:06 um 00:28:39 copypasting is slow in linux 00:28:42 cheater00, anything between 2.6.30 and 2.6.35 (inclusive) and I suggest you upgrade. I had sync hanging sometimes during that period. 00:28:45 cheater00, no it isn't 00:28:52 just middle mouse button 00:29:01 2.6.32-27-generic #49-Ubuntu SMP Wed Dec 1 23:52:12 UTC 2010 i686 GNU/Linux 00:29:08 yeah i'll probably try to upgrade 00:29:15 cheater00, upgrade to 2.6.36 kernel 00:29:18 how do i unlock my sync() now? 00:29:29 cheater00, you reboot 00:29:43 -!- elliott_ has joined. 00:29:43 oh right, i was gonna leave -> 00:29:45 and hope the fs is journaling 00:29:46 how do i unlock my sync() now without rebooting? 00:29:51 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:29:55 cheater00, you don't. It is a bug in some kernels 00:31:09 cheater00, just unmount any other file systems 00:31:10 Vorpal: must be some way 00:31:20 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:31:21 and remount the ones that couldn't as read only 00:31:22 Vorpal: is there a bug description for this? 00:31:27 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:31:37 cheater00, yes, but I don't have a link to it on this machine 00:31:47 i'm sure you're able to find it 00:31:56 cheater00, no it is on my mail in another computer 00:32:00 cheater00, also why should I 00:32:04 if you are that rude 00:32:12 why rude? 00:32:19 i'm expressing my belief in your abilities 00:32:25 har har 00:32:38 like, i'm sure zzo or j-invariant wouldn't be able to 00:32:49 as if 00:32:49 or oklopol 00:33:08 try google yourself 00:33:11 you can do better than oklopol! 00:33:21 well, i know nothing about the linux kernel 00:33:47 so i wouldn't recognize the right sites in google 00:33:59 cheater00, https://bugzilla.kernel.org/ 00:34:01 have fun 00:36:50 cheater00, actually it might not be the same bug. Your backtrace looks a bit shorter than I remember mine 00:36:56 in which case I can't help much 00:43:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:47:10 dfsjglfdgjfsglsfgdfg 00:47:15 emacs modes are hard 00:48:06 stupid generic-mode only supports three-char comment chars 00:53:19 all i want is 00:53:33 colour ~, {, }, :, ., ; specially 00:53:44 have a bunch of alternate comment delims up to 6 chars 00:53:48 and have an auto-indenter algo 00:53:50 THAT SO HARD? 00:56:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:59:56 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 01:00:00 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 01:00:00 -!- elliott has joined. 01:00:03 * elliott designs a text edito 01:00:03 r 01:00:43 f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/r{$1'\n'$2'('} 01:01:25 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 01:01:59 -!- Ilari has joined. 01:03:44 _Ex `find -name \*.[ch]`/{_Op f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/r{$1'\n'$2'('}_Wr _Cl} 01:04:40 * elliott waits for Sgeo to call him crazy 01:07:38 What's _Ex? 01:07:44 Execute. 01:07:56 ` is an arbitrary char; you could use % there too. 01:07:57 Ex %ls% 01:08:08 I am _NOT_ doing all that next time I omit a letter from a line 01:08:13 What? 01:08:22 That has nothing to do with omitting a letter from a line. 01:08:23 That changes 01:08:25 int foo(blah) 01:08:27 C prototypes into 01:08:28 int 01:08:29 foo(blah) 01:08:34 from all C files in the current dir 01:08:35 and children 01:08:41 Why? 01:08:47 Because it's an example. 01:09:51 And I see it stemming from the grand J tradition of being unreadable 01:09:57 * Sgeo gets shot by elliott 01:10:18 it's not even vaguely related to J. 01:10:21 it's more similar to ed and teco 01:10:29 also, unreadable for you maybe 01:10:38 i find c# unreadable 01:11:12 No output. 01:11:58 Sgeo: you could easily write that line more readable and clearer. but, err, it's an editor 01:12:00 who indents editor commands 01:12:21 I will be offline for much of Friday 01:12:45 _Ex `find -name \*.[ch]` / { 01:12:45 _Op 01:12:45 f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/ 01:12:45 r{ $1 '\n' $2 '(' } 01:12:45 _Wr 01:12:45 I'm sure that makes you happy 01:12:46 _Cl 01:12:47 } 01:13:25 elliott, I don't.. understand it, but if I read about it, it would be comprehendible 01:13:40 Sgeo: _Ex is just execute shell command obviously 01:13:47 / is infix operator for "each in list" 01:13:51 _Op = open; _Wr = write; _Cl = close 01:13:54 Hmm... Wonder what is failure rate of 6to4 return paths... 01:14:03 f/regexp/ is "find (and, implicitly, select) all matching strings" 01:14:09 r{ ... } is "replace with result of this block" 01:14:10 (of course, any failure there is stupid...) 01:14:15 $1, $2 are your standard regexp () group values 01:14:17 and that's all there is to it 01:14:22 Ah 01:14:49 Are f and r always together like that? 01:14:54 No. 01:15:00 Also useful is f/foo/ d. 01:15:03 To delete all instances of foo. 01:15:15 But r is meaningless without a preceding f? 01:15:18 f/foo/ a... would add stuff after all instances of foo. 01:15:28 Sgeo: It operates on the current selection. So you could select, e.g., an arbitrary range in the file instead. 01:15:40 (Note: You can have N selections at a time; all these operations act on /every/ selection.) 01:15:44 Ah 01:15:44 This is modelled after sam. 01:15:52 (ed's graphical successor) 01:20:18 Sgeo: Anyway modelling dream editors on TECO is good enough for Mark Chu-Caroll so it's good enough for me. 01:20:21 His is actually implemented though. 01:20:23 *Carroll 01:21:13 * Sgeo colds on chat 01:21:18 Sgeo: What. 01:21:23 I'm cold 01:21:55 I'm in a bit of a happy mood ight now. Deespite being cold 01:21:58 P.S. my f/foo/r/bar/ is MCC's g/foo/,{r'bar'}. 01:22:23 Well, where MCC's g comes from is obvious, but why the {}? 01:22:41 For grouping, presumably. 01:22:43 His is more like a foreach. 01:22:54 Ah 01:23:06 Mine isn't a loop, it just holds multiple selections. Like Schrödinger's editor. 01:23:18 Indeed: 01:23:20 global: g/pattern/,block 01:23:20 A simple loop construct. For each match of the pattern within the current cursor, execute the block. So, for example, to do a global search and replace of foo with bar, * g/foo/,{r'bar'}. 01:23:23 Less powerful than my notion. 01:24:28 MCC's has factorial: 01:24:29 fun ($x) @fact {($x,0)@= ? {1} : { ($x, ($x,1)@-@fact)@* } 01:24:34 which would be, uh, slightly uglier in mine. 01:25:34 S's cat's editor? 01:25:38 What? 01:25:46 Oh. 01:26:07 _Set [_Fact] {_Eq $1 0 ?'1' :{I don't even want to write this bit}} 01:26:19 That just sets _Fact to a string naturally. 01:30:45 i wonder what i should impl botte in 01:33:18 Courtesy of Notch's incompetence, enjoy minecraft.jar for free: http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/minecraft.jar 01:33:32 I am fairly sure that anyone can download that URL without supplying the S3 auth token. 01:33:44 You also require: 01:33:50 http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/lwjgl.jar 01:33:50 http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/jinput.jar 01:33:50 http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/lwjgl_util.jar 01:33:53 http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/linux_natives.jar.lzma 01:36:20 oklopol: hi 01:45:30 elliott, o.O 01:45:36 Sgeo: ? 01:46:20 That's useless without some trick to avoid having to log in, I think 01:49:54 -!- augur has changed nick to SamuelBeckett. 01:50:03 -!- SamuelBeckett has changed nick to augur. 01:51:43 Sgeo: umm, easy 01:51:47 Sgeo: just log in with invalid uname/pass 01:51:56 Sgeo: or non-purchased one 01:52:04 Sgeo: plus, no, that's launcher.jar 01:52:09 Unless something changed since the al.. ah 01:52:09 running minecraft.jar will do everything 01:52:12 online servers won't let you in of course 01:52:18 since they check with minecraft.net 01:52:20 unless they're modded not to 01:52:28 Is there a windows_natives? 01:53:55 Sgeo: presumably. 01:54:05 those are all free-to-download sorta thing 01:54:09 not protected with auth token in download logs 01:54:22 Sgeo: in fact if you run classic in-browser i think you will see it being downloaded 01:54:49 http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/linux_natives.jar.lzma <--- what, is it that open? 01:55:03 Vorpal: linux_natives.jar.lzma is downloaded even by the classic client. 01:55:13 okay what about minecraft.jar then 01:55:15 Vorpal: The thing is that minecraft.jar is downloaded like ?user=ehird&auth=... 01:55:20 But I curl -I'd it without those 01:55:26 And it had the same file length and 200 OK response :P 01:55:44 elliott, how did you find this out? 01:55:46 Yep, downloading it now. 01:55:58 Vorpal: It prints out the URLs it downloads when it updates. 01:56:06 I just decided to cut off the params and see what happened. 01:56:08 elliott, oh there is an update out? 01:56:19 Yes. And since this is a new OS installation I was running it from cmd line. 01:56:27 elliott, ah. What is new this time 01:56:34 Ubuntu. 01:56:38 oh 01:56:43 elliott, so no actual update out? 01:56:51 $ wget http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/minecraft.jar 01:56:52 elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~$ diff minecraft.jar .minecraft/bin/minecraft.jar 01:56:52 elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~$ 01:56:54 Notch quality engineering. 01:56:56 Vorpal: Indeed. 01:58:09 elliott, as notch pointed out, this *is* in fact awesome: http://kotaku.com/5729340/you-can-now-bring-the-real-world-to-minecraft/gallery/ 01:58:47 I would so tweet that URL but fanbois would yell at me for being an evil pirate scumbag fuckwit, Notch would fix it quickly (probably badly) and likely FROWN UPON me or something, and nobody would win. 01:59:01 Instead, I will just link the files to anyone I recommend Minecraft to, to save them the effort of pirating an old version. 01:59:15 hah 01:59:19 Vorpal: Also, I linked that in here yesterday. 01:59:26 elliott, I didn't see it 01:59:27 Well, the original source, not Kotaku blogspam. 01:59:35 elliott, where is the original source? 01:59:55 Good question, Kotaku are very good at hiding that... Gawker scumbags... 02:00:01 http://www.orderofevents.com/MineCraft/KinectInfo.htm 02:00:04 From the bottom of their sidebar text. 02:00:14 Incidentally, the other side is apparently concave. 02:00:20 Which is DISTURBING 02:00:32 Also, I'd take a photo of something very, very red 02:00:33 *red. 02:00:38 Except it'd come out as Netherstone... 02:00:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:00:41 *NetherRACK 02:00:52 *NetherACK 02:01:19 is it really netherack? 02:01:39 I dunno :P 02:04:14 There is a windows_natives 02:04:34 I'm ... hyper with excitement 02:04:44 Make sure to rm bin/version :P 02:04:49 Also... no comment. 02:04:56 [Note: I don't mean sexually] 02:05:08 sexadfawefuhawr 02:05:11 -shutup- Shut up about sex! 02:05:35 Factoracto 02:05:40 As I said, it's broken :P 02:05:58 That bug was weird. But I'm not restarting it until I decide that it won't hurt me. 02:06:04 And that service system hurts me. 02:06:43 elliott, we all know that shutup's source is updog 02:06:43 What's updog? 02:06:54 Yes, by the power of rampant speculation. 02:07:40 I think the bug where updog doesn't distinguish between msgs to the channel and to it hurts you even more 02:07:40 What's updog? 02:08:16 I hurt, with pain. 02:08:29 That bug was weird. But I'm not restarting it until I decide that it won't hurt me. <-- what bug 02:08:44 Vorpal, something to do with sex, apparently 02:08:44 It triggered on "sex" when it was not, in fact, intended to. 02:08:55 The shutup code is ... kinda tailored for perversity. 02:09:03 How do you accidentally trigger on sex? 02:09:05 I refuse to code bots in any sane kind of manner. 02:09:23 Sgeo: By fitting a words-to-include formula to the data of past things you've said. 02:09:24 I think the bug where updog doesn't distinguish between msgs to the channel and to it hurts you even more <-- hah 02:09:24 What's updog? 02:09:44 i.e., decide what words to filter on, make an algo that goes through all your past said words and uses the frequency to decide which ones to keep, 02:09:49 and fit the latter so that it produces the former. 02:09:55 I blame you for skewing the results. 02:10:30 So it will be a while before it triggers on Alluded-To? 02:10:41 Sgeo, Alluded-To? 02:10:55 Vorpal: Katie Alluded-To Female. 02:11:00 Katie A.T. F. for short. 02:11:03 elliott, oh the "she"? 02:11:05 Yes. 02:11:14 elliott, nothing wrong with having a girlfriend 02:11:25 Is she not alluded-to? 02:11:34 elliott, and what is wrong with that 02:11:35 Also, that was invented far before the term girlfriend could be even vaguely applicable. 02:11:44 elliott: somehow i cannot quite recall Sgeo talking that much about sex in the past 02:11:50 elliott, you should make the bot tell yourself to shut up about @ btw 02:12:01 i rarely talk about @ 02:12:02 it is awesome though 02:12:03 oerjan: did you not read? it's not based on direct frequency 02:12:21 elliott: well obviously or it would trigger on "the" :D 02:12:22 oerjan: i rigged the input to the algo so that it came back with almost the word list i wanted 02:12:34 because sanity is frankly boring 02:12:47 hah 02:12:53 It has to be fairly deliberate for fantasies 02:12:56 elliott: maybe you have just algorithmically proved that Sgeo _is_ obsessed with sex, then. 02:13:01 I did add some special-casing. 02:13:01 fantasy 02:13:05 Ah 02:13:13 oerjan: I am a brilliant visionary and a scientist. 02:13:24 I graciously accept this Nobel Prize. 02:14:08 elliott, but the Nobel Prize is Swedish. How can you not look down on it. 02:14:09 * elliott IRC-bookmarks http://code.google.com/p/gnuemacscolorthemetest/ 02:14:15 Vorpal: so is olsner and he's p. coo 02:14:24 just 90% of you suck 02:14:29 elliott, "p. coo"? 02:14:33 pretty coo' 02:14:35 elliott, what about Firefly? 02:14:42 well sure but he rarely talks or anything 02:14:45 elliott, also 90% of *everything* sucks 02:14:49 beholdmyglory is also swedish i think 02:14:55 also, yes, but 90% of the remaining 10% of sweden sucks 02:15:05 sweden applies sturgeon's RECURSIVE law 02:15:10 hah 02:15:11 basically only epsilon% of sweden doesn't suck 02:15:17 easily provable 02:15:35 sucks = 90% + 90% of 10% + 90% of 10% of 10% + 90% of 10% of 10% of 10% + ... 02:15:53 elliott, we got the joke 02:15:54 wow the emacs themes are ugly 02:15:59 um, wai 02:16:04 That's the same thing as 100% 02:16:05 emacs has themes? 02:16:09 Sgeo: thus epsilon% 02:16:12 Vorpal: color-theme-select 02:16:15 they're all fairly hideous 02:16:18 elliott, 99.9999999..... = 100 02:16:22 there was this nice one i used once... 02:16:28 oerjan: swat Sgeo plxkthz 02:16:34 elliott, is that M-x? 02:16:40 Vorpal: yes 02:16:41 elliott, because I have no color-theme-select 02:16:47 elliott, what emacs version? 02:16:52 Hmm. 90% of everything that sucks sucks. 02:16:55 Vorpal: 23, you may have to require 'color-theme 02:16:55 Sgeo: i think elliott is using non-standard analysis 02:17:00 or maybe it has a u 02:17:06 elliott, ah 02:17:11 oerjan: non-standard analysis doesn't exactly give 99.99999... != 100 :D 02:17:31 elliott: details! 02:17:47 Vorpal: proof that they are all pretty bad: http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-c.html 02:17:55 also http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-tex.html http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-el.html 02:17:57 for different languages 02:18:09 el one is probably best 02:18:11 since the code is the prettiest 02:18:18 Arjen looks decent 02:18:28 no it doesn't 02:18:33 elliott, standard emacs are quite okay 02:18:43 most of these look like some colourblind kid slapped random colours together without thinking 02:18:55 Bharadwaj Slate must die 02:19:01 The rest look decent 02:19:02 Mostly 02:19:23 Bharadwaj Slate must die <-- yeargh yesx 02:19:24 yes* 02:19:38 http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html this is the ideal of syntax highlighting 02:19:40 also blue sea, blue mood 02:19:42 and so on 02:19:42 i don't like the specific colours he used 02:19:45 bharadwaj sounds indian and everyone knows indians are colorblind 02:19:53 i generally prefer dark-on-beigey-esque-stuff 02:19:53 but 02:19:55 Late Night. 02:20:01 his use of colour theory is very relevant 02:20:02 Seriously. Dear God Why. Late Night. 02:20:03 everyone should read that post 02:20:12 and the end result is really great, ignoring the absolute colours 02:20:20 if you look from a slight distance you can really see the balance it creates 02:20:33 if only every language had fans so dedicated to write such colourers for them :) 02:21:26 Sgeo: late night is one of the better ones. 02:21:29 it's a bit too low contrast 02:21:35 but, at least, it isn't a mess of colours 02:21:43 shading > colours usualy 02:21:45 *usually 02:22:23 http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html this is the ideal of syntax highlighting <-- extremely interesting 02:23:09 yeah i might do that for haskell sometime 02:23:13 ugh, white on black 02:23:17 copumpkin: as i said 02:23:20 it's not the actual colours that matter 02:23:25 it's the design of the whole thing 02:23:27 no, I mean 02:23:30 I want to read that 02:23:36 disable css :p 02:23:40 i agree it sucks 02:23:52 I just don't get why people insist on doing that shit 02:24:02 people haven't quite realised that with an lcd, backlight-on on backlight-off = lightbulb 02:24:10 with crts it wasn't quite the same 02:24:12 and light-on-dark was ok 02:24:19 but on lcds it's godawful 02:25:31 copumpkin: can you write a lazy parallel specialiser for me? 02:25:35 in x86-64 assembly? 02:25:35 nope 02:25:35 thanks 02:25:40 would be great 02:25:43 on my desk by monday 02:25:54 i wonder if anyone's ever done work on parallel specialisation 02:25:59 * elliott adds it to the phd thesis topic ideas list 02:26:02 elliott: Light-on-dark is bad? Huh? 02:26:07 pikhq: Yes. 02:26:10 pikhq: On LCDs, yes. 02:26:14 How so? 02:26:22 pikhq: The background, and the gaps in the letters, get (almost) no backlight. So they're like looking at, you know, a wall. 02:26:27 pikhq: Whereas the letters are lit brightly. 02:26:34 pikhq: The result is that they shine like a lightbulb. 02:26:52 elliott: Your backlight level is almost certainly set too high. 02:26:57 pikhq: The best is off-black on, e.g., a medium beige: not black-on-lightbulb, but not lightbulb-on-black. 02:27:04 pikhq: Sure. But even with a lower backlight you get similar things. 02:27:14 The fact is that it's little-tiny-lines-of-light-on-no-light and that just ain't nice. 02:27:39 ugh, white on black <-- yeah should use light grey on black 02:27:43 pikhq: ALSO considering probably most of the web is dark-on-light, it's horrible because when you move away from light-on-dark, your eyes explode. 02:27:43 like the terminal 02:27:48 Vorpal: lol 02:27:54 off-white on white 02:28:00 grey1 on grey2 02:28:09 pink on purple 02:28:10 braille on random sea of braille 02:28:11 that's best 02:28:14 ^^ NO THIS IS BEST 02:28:22 haha i'm gonna go around trolling blind people 02:28:25 "Hey, what does this say?" 02:28:37 omg 02:28:43 someone render "has anyone ever been so far as ..." in braille 02:28:49 i'm going to put it on a random door in the high street 02:28:55 elliott, your monitor has insufficiently backlight bleeding :P 02:28:55 :D 02:28:57 i should sleep now 02:28:58 Black on PLUGE black on a TV. 02:29:00 before i get any better ideas 02:29:03 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:30:19 night again 02:36:34 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:36:38 Haha... NASA produces heavy launcher design and notes "However, to be clear, neither Reference Vehicle Design currently fits the projected budget profiles nor schedule goals outlined in the Authorization Act”. Translation: It will take horridly long and be horridly expensive. 02:37:55 Thanks to those pork-barrel politicans, US manned spaceflight program is effectively dead... 02:38:12 -!- variable has joined. 02:39:12 Yeah; as soon as the shuttle's done, that's it. 02:39:22 No more US manned spaceflight, barring a miracle. 02:39:31 But remember: we're number one! 02:42:37 Basically, only Russia and China are capable of manned launches... 02:42:46 (to orbit) 02:44:31 I thought there was something about private companies? 02:45:18 And manned moon landing... Hasn't been possible for any space agency for 30 years... 02:45:26 (actually more) 02:46:13 Sgeo: There are private companies that would *like* to have a manned launch capacity. 02:46:24 Hmm. 02:48:32 Oh. SpaceX is actually *working on* a manned orbital launch vehicle. 02:50:57 Their rocket has successfully launched a module into orbit. 02:51:12 Saturn V-23(L)... Now that would have been crazy device. 5 uprated F-1s (F-1A)... PLUS 4x2 F-1As in form of 4 extra boosters... 02:54:05 Hmm. It was, in fact, a fully functional cargo vehicle they launched. As soon as NASA is satisfied, it will be launching to the ISS. 02:58:27 And too bad none of the "Nova" rockets was ever built... 03:00:22 Nor any nuclear-powered rockets... 03:01:06 (And I mean more like NERVA than ORION) 03:02:17 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to c0pumpkin. 03:04:24 Idonno, something about contracting to private companies to go to space seems enormously appropriate, we just need to somehow convince them that it's worth it ... 03:31:49 My dad accidentally threw out the melatonin 03:32:00 I was planning on sleeping tonight 03:43:10 -!- c0pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 03:43:57 _accidentally_ 03:44:00 ? 03:48:53 He was cleaning out the medicine closet, and didn't realize the melatonin was mine, I guess 03:53:29 My dad just gave me a Benadryl 03:57:03 it should work 03:57:24 um that's not for sleeping is it 03:57:30 (says wikipedia) 03:57:48 it's not. but it has a pretty pronounced drowsiness side effect 04:29:32 which is a cooler place, kobnhavn or amsterdam? 04:30:40 amsterdam because it actually exists 04:38:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 04:40:47 copenhagen or denmark man, be straight with me 04:40:51 *amsterdam 04:40:52 sorry 04:40:58 two conversations at once 04:41:55 so the other conversation got a *copenhagen? 04:42:30 sure 05:29:04 It appears that Copenhagen is, but only by 1-2 degrees centigrade. 05:29:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:29:23 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:30:19 Gregor: ... 05:31:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:31:47 oerjan: Well, just going by Wikipedia's relatively limited climate information. 05:33:51 O KAY 05:35:47 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:38:49 Ah *good*. 05:39:42 George Hotz's lawyer has, in SCEA v. George Hotz; Hector Martin; Cantero; Sven Peter; and Does 1 through 100, argued against the claim of jurisdiction and the claim that the defendants are somehow acting in concert. 05:41:29 In short: unless SCEA can demonstrate that a court in California has jurisdiction over people in: California, New Jersey, Sweden, and various unknown countries in Europe, *and* that the defendants are, in fact, a single group, acting in concert, this case ought to be thrown out soon. 05:42:27 As the only reason for the California court to have jurisdiction would be if *all* defendants had agreed to the PSN terms of service, and as George Hotz is in no way acting together with fail0verflow, I expect SCEA to need to file a new case. 05:43:32 His attorney apparently specialises in defending against the RIAA's P2P lawsuits. 05:46:11 wonderful 05:48:47 Oh, good. Groklaw's following this case. 05:49:09 ... SCO IS STILL GOING‽‽‽ 05:56:42 pikhq, SCEA? 05:59:21 Sony Computer Entertainment of America. 05:59:29 Which, incidentally, is in Delaware. 06:00:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:00:19 Oh, yeah, they're suing in a state that neither they *nor* their defendants are in, soley because the PSN terms say "you agree to be under the jurisdiction of (some court in California)". 06:00:48 I'm not entirely sure that clause even *works* outside of the US. 06:01:28 Well. It certainly doesn't *effectively* work outside of the US; after all, a non-American can just tell US courts to fuck off and die in a fire. 06:01:29 -!- augur has joined. 06:01:53 You're not getting fucking extradited for a civil matter. 06:04:02 pikhq, if they are not in that jurisdiction that clause shouldn't work 06:06:04 variable: Most of the defendants are not in the jurisdiction of *any US court*. 06:08:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:14:05 -!- acetoline has joined. 06:16:21 has anyone figured out whether they're suing specifically the named people as constituting fail0verflow, or those plus anyone else who happens to be affiliated with f0f? 06:16:34 or not suing 06:16:37 but you know what I mean 06:17:15 they mention does 1 through 100 06:17:56 copumpkin: They are suing *specifically* fail0verflow. 06:18:14 of which they happen to know four members as named? 06:18:17 but potentially more? 06:18:21 Yes. 06:18:23 I see 06:18:36 Actually, *three* members as named. 06:18:47 oh? 06:18:49 George Hotz is not a member of fail0verflow. 06:18:56 there are four others 06:18:58 And, in fact, has *no* connection to them at all. 06:19:02 I know :P 06:19:05 Hector Martin; Cantero; Sven Peter. 06:19:06 That's 3. 06:19:09 segher 06:19:14 That's an alias. 06:19:16 hector martin cantero is one person 06:19:27 bushing is another 06:19:38 Bushing is an alias. 06:19:41 yes, I know 06:19:49 They only named real names. 06:20:09 And then listed the aliases for people that will be included in "Does 1 through 100". 06:20:21 the documents included plenty of mentions of bushing and segher 06:20:27 fair enough 06:20:36 what other aliases are in there? 06:21:01 I don't think there were others; they are merely presuming that there are an unknown number of other members. 06:21:06 I see 06:21:22 With "1 through 100" as shorthand for "however many of them there are". 06:21:38 makes sense 06:22:53 well, it'll be interesting to see how this goes 06:24:39 I imagine that Geohotz and Bushing will have trouble from this. 06:25:07 Everyone else can just mock our insane legal system. 06:26:40 https://s-hphotos-ash1.fbcdn.net/hs796.ash1/168654_482257016845_714011845_6503407_4647200_n.jpg :-} 06:41:00 variable: are you an actual variable, or one of those stupid fp/math that can't actually change their value? 06:41:09 *ones that 06:47:59 oklopol, I'm truly variable 06:53:41 at least some of the time 06:55:04 oerjan, yes - when I'm about to be shot, mutilated, or otherwise modified I become const 06:56:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:57:34 Do you know if DVItype has been published in a book? Do you know what would be the proper bibliography citation for it? 06:58:54 zzo38, what format? 06:59:06 MLA ? Chicago ? 06:59:49 variable: I am using Vancouver format. 07:00:02 -!- Zuu_ has joined. 07:00:09 * variable doesn't know that one 07:00:15 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:00:23 I know MLA6, MLA7, and, APA 07:00:31 * Chicago 07:00:35 I know of APA 07:01:13 Do you know the citation for it, in any format? 07:01:34 zzo38, its a website - right? 07:01:45 variable: No. 07:02:02 zzo38, what is it and I'll try to tell you 07:02:10 Both the book I am citing and the book I am aking are both computer programs. 07:02:51 Online or bought (boxed) ? 07:03:20 It is a file on my computer, I do not know if it has ever been published in a book. 07:03:32 erm - its source code? 07:03:56 I have both the source file and the DVI file. 07:04:10 zzo38, Last, First. Software Name. Vers. A.b.c. Company Name, 1887. Computer software. 07:04:13 in MLA 07:04:37 1887 is the year of creation 07:05:41 zzo38, remove "Vers. A.b.c" if you don't know remove the "Company name" AND date published if it wasn't previously published 07:06:05 I do not know if it was published. 07:06:30 zzo38, then just use Last, First. Software Name. 07:06:41 note the trailing . 07:06:44 The program TeX and METAFONT are published (I have the books), but this program DVItype I do not know (it is related to TeX, though) 07:06:46 (again - this is MLA style) 07:07:52 zzo38, years ago I wrote a program to automatically generate this for me :-} 07:08:07 I do have "(Version 3.6, December 1995)" and "The preparation of this report was supported in part by the National Science Foundation under grants IST-820 1926 and ..." 07:08:07 I may rewrite it in Haskell or something - and then publish it 07:08:19 http://www.pa.msu.edu/~aaronson/alitest/aintro.html what are your alignments guys? 07:08:48 quintopia, D&D alignment test - heh 07:09:09 i came up True Neutral 07:09:14 * variable looks 07:10:02 These things are written on the table of contents page of DVItype 07:10:18 zzo38, I'm not very familiar with govt. works 07:10:25 I'd venture to guess that it is 07:10:56 zzo38, Last, First. Software Name. Vers. 3.6. Computer software. 07:15:40 quintopia, i only did the first 15 questions: Alignment: True Neutral 07:16:00 cool 07:21:00 Latest figures: APNIC pool is at 39 886 592 IPs. 3.0M-8.0M remain to estimated allocation thresholds... 07:21:06 I have done a few D&D alignment tests, with some different answers on each one, I have gotten NG, CG, and CN. 07:21:36 variable: I think it is not government work. Donald Knuth wrote DVItype. 07:22:12 zzo38, you play D&D - curious 07:23:17 I also invented some spells and feats and stuff for D&D game. 07:23:46 zzo38, as in official or homebre? 07:23:49 *homebrew 07:24:08 variable: Just my own spells/feats. But I use the official ones, too. 07:24:09 * Ilari goes ot look how large is APNIC IPv6 pool... :-) 07:24:17 zzo38, heh - same here :-} 07:25:35 My character is ettercap. My brother's character is human ninja. There are also some NPCs in the party, one of which is otyugh and the others humans. 07:26:28 And almost every one of my actions in the game is strange. 07:27:43 82 339 124 917 091 486 660 901 601 422 606 336 addresses (99.1% of a block). 07:29:12 fizzie, wrt mcmap: it could be some off by one error. Even when you edit further down you sometimes get errors. Not corruption like near max alt, but sometimes if you edit just below the top block that edit show up as top on mcmap surface view when it shouldn't 07:30:22 The first page of DVItype is numbered 402, so it seems it might have been a part of some book. 07:30:36 fizzie, for example I placed a lightstone below an ironblock at altitude 73 and it showed up as a lightstone on mcmap. However it is not reliably reproducible, even in that one spot. Things like that happen every now and then. But far from always. 07:32:14 I have read that it is not allowed to place something in the public domain. But does it apply in Canada? Is it allowed in Canada to make something public domain? 07:32:52 And why is it disallowed? 07:37:39 The reason why public domain might be disallowed is possibility of coercion... 07:38:57 (I think) 07:39:15 Ilari: Do you have example? 07:48:50 I got algorithm to make plurals working, but can you check to see if there are omissions or anything else wrong with my file? 07:54:19 zzo38, depends on the country 07:54:32 most countries follow the Berne convention 07:55:13 which basically states: "author gets all the rights except if he gives them away (and a bit of fair use like things) 07:56:02 the closest one could get to placing something in the public domain is by providing an irrevocable, transferable, license to everyone 07:56:27 the "public domain" is made up by some countries which states that certain types of things don't have a copyright owner 07:56:46 IE the federal government in the US, and works over X years from the author's death 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:56 Can I make something in the public domain by dictating the US government to write it down exactly as I said? 08:02:37 (Of course this is completely impractical, I am asking if it is possible/legal) 08:03:07 I think that depends whether you use legal means for "incentivizing" them to write what you say. 08:03:57 I believe you can sneak things into public domain by getting them recorded as part of some court proceedings. 08:04:16 Is it legal for someone to sue themself? 08:04:41 Not sure, but you could have an accomplice there. 08:05:04 Can I get something into the public domain by suing myself over the document I wish to make public domain? 08:07:12 I have read somewhere that the DMCA allows Sony to sue themself, I do not know whether or not this is true. 08:12:51 "While the copyright of the play Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J. M. Barrie has expired in the United Kingdom, it was granted a special exception under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (Schedule 6)[33] that requires royalties to be paid for performances within the UK, so long as Great Ormond Street Hospital (to whom Barrie gave the rights) continues to exist." 08:12:54 Isn't that a bit strange? 08:13:49 fizzie: Yes it is a bit strange, I think. 08:16:18 fizzie, erm 08:16:32 Disney has a perpetual copyright on mickey mouse IIRC 08:16:38 zzo38, suing oneself is not possible 08:16:45 (in the US) 08:17:05 variable: Do you know if in Canada, it is permitted to put something into public domain? 08:17:35 zzo38, I would highly doubt it - but I know little of Canadian law 08:17:35 I think Disney's copyright is just a "de-facto" seems-to-be-extended-all-the-time thing, not something that's actually perpetual. 08:17:48 I am also not a lawyer and I do not give legal advice 08:18:25 But are you a doctor and can the above be construed as medical advice? 08:18:29 fizzie, strictly speaking its some insanely long term that congress keeps on extending (there was a supreme court case about the constitutionality of this) but its close to perpetual 08:18:32 fizzie, no. 08:18:46 (its sad that I feel I must answer the question seriously) 08:18:57 variable: I am not expecting proper legal advice. 08:19:07 Nor am I expecting proper medical advice. 08:19:34 zzo38, public domain is basically things that fall outside of copyright law 08:19:52 in most countries its not really possible to put something in PD 08:21:15 You could just die and then wait a century or so. 08:22:09 I guess if you actually wait a full century, you don't even need to die. 08:22:25 fizzie, no - its 100 yrs after author death 08:22:32 "95 years from publication or 120 years from creation whichever is shorter (anonymous works, pseudonymous works, or works made for hire, published since 1978)" 08:22:43 "Life + 70 years (works published since 1978 or unpublished works)" 08:22:48 that's what I meany 08:22:49 Says Wikipedia's US table. 08:22:50 70 yrs 08:22:51 not 100 08:22:58 Yes, but if you publish it anonymously. 08:23:10 zzo38, actually - after doing some research (read: google) there is some common law about suing yourself 08:24:08 What if I add the following text to the beginning of the document: "This license is secret and its author is not permitted to read/use it, unless it is part of a court case in which case it is public domain. The license conditions end here; what follows is an appendix." and then somehow sue myself over it........ 08:24:30 fizzie, one of my get rich slow schemes is to publish different works under 10 different names forecasting different financial outcomes in a few yrs. Then when one comes true reveal myself as the author of that work and write a new one that I sell for lots of money 08:24:53 zzo38, you could try to go to congress and get it read there 08:25:09 (and even if it were criminal you couldn't get prosecuted over it) 08:25:15 France in the table: "Life + 70 years [...] + 30 years for all works if the author died on active service". 08:26:31 variable: Why couldn't get prosecuted over it? 08:27:19 Does the DMCA actually permit Sony to sue themself or is that something that someone else made up? 08:28:01 "Sony" is composed of so many parts that I'm sure they could find some separate corporations to interfight. 08:30:47 zzo38, one can't be prosecuted for something said/done in the course of a Congressional hearing IIRC 08:30:54 I'm looking for the exact provision now 08:31:44 zzo38, "They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place." 08:31:58 Article I Section 6 08:32:08 but that only applies to members 08:34:22 zzo38, the idea was to prevent the president from having legislative members arrested before voting 08:34:36 * variable misremembered the clause 08:36:16 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 08:37:05 * variable is AWAY 08:38:29 \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ 08:38:30 | `\o/´ | 08:38:30 >\ | |\ 08:38:30 /´\ 08:38:30 (_| |_) 08:39:27 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:39:44 Project Gutenberg says you can release your own work into public domain by writing a note; this contradicts the description about the WTFPL. And anyways this is for United States. I live in Canada. 08:52:42 -!- myndzi has joined. 08:56:29 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:59:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 09:02:42 I have idea, I have thought to make a program that converts a ESC/P file for Epson dot-matrix printers into DVI format. 09:08:15 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:10:30 http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-01-13/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+DilbertDailyStrip+(Dilbert+Daily+Strip)&Page=2 09:10:39 There's a human spammer? 09:10:40 o.O 09:33:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:38:20 -!- Warmage has joined. 09:38:35 -!- Warmage has left (?). 11:31:01 I have idea, I have thought to make a program that converts a ESC/P file for Epson dot-matrix printers into DVI format. <-- I wonder why this would ever be useful 11:34:23 Perhaps he has a large amount of documentation or something in the form of ESC/P files. 11:36:34 I'm not sure what my dot-matrix printer used; it might have been partially compatible, but not very. I do have some conversion programs from raster graphics to that, for image-printing. 11:36:48 heh 11:36:56 fizzie, for DOS? 11:37:41 No, just something you can run a .png through and then 'lp' it out a raw printcap entry or something. I think this was pre-CUPS. 11:37:54 ah 11:38:34 Speaking of which, I looked at the C1x static asserts; the format is _Static_assert(constant-expression, string-literal), and the semantics are that if constant-expression equals zero, "the implementation shall produce a diagnostic message that includes the text of the string literal". And defines static_assert to _Static_assert. 11:38:38 Rather straight-forward. 11:38:59 hm 11:39:28 but rather more limited than D's static asserts then? 11:39:40 I don't know what those are like. 11:40:27 I seem to remember they looked rather interesting when reading ccbi2 source 11:40:32 don't remember how 11:40:40 fizzie, btw where did you find the c1x draft? 11:41:49 Well, it's at http://www.open-std.org/Jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1547.pdf -- don't quite remember where I got the link, it's not directly on the WG14 front page, but maybe it's in there deeper somewhere. 11:42:07 ISO working group web pages tend to be a bit unstructured and confusing. 11:42:34 heh indeed 11:42:54 fizzie, anyway, open-std? Isn't that POSIX related? 11:43:11 They have quite a lot of stuff there. 11:43:18 ah indeed 11:43:18 Including the posix workin group page. 11:43:35 "WG11 - Binding Techniques" I wonder what on earth that is 11:44:05 also the phrase "Programming languages and, operating systems" looks terribly strange to me. The comma specifically. 11:44:08 "how to make specifications independent of programming languages, and then apply these specifications to the programming languages" -- sounds a bit SWIGgy. 11:44:40 I guess it's not, really. 11:45:06 hm? that comma was much less out of place to me 11:45:19 (if that was what you were trying to imply) 11:45:32 No, I just meant the binding stuff is not very SWIGgy after all. 11:45:35 ah 11:45:45 The C standard includes some sort of a "binding" to their "language-independent math" thing. 11:46:10 heh 11:47:43 Oh, and C1x thread functions have a naming scheme that's a bit on the ugly side; all thread functions/macros/whatever are thrd_foo, mutexes mtx_foo, and condition-variable stuff cnd_foo. 11:48:06 Purely as a guess I think they didn't want to have too many namespace conflicts for people who already were using the full words. 11:48:20 fizzie, uh do they still have the 8 letter identifier thingy? 11:48:26 fizzie, if so I guess that is why 11:48:48 The names themselves are definitely longer than that, and wasn't it already 31 letters also for external names? 11:48:57 oh perhaps 11:49:03 it used to be 8 somewhere 11:49:44 "31 significant initial characters in an external identifier" 11:49:51 It was in C90, at least, IIRC. 11:49:58 ah 11:50:48 Though re those 31, "each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 0000FFFF or less is considered 6 characters, each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 00010000 or more is considered 10 characters, and each extended source character is considered the same number of characters as the corresponding universal character name, if any" 11:51:26 eh... 11:51:39 why those specific boundaries 11:51:41 So if you use only Unicode characters outside the BMP (say you're programming in old turkic), you're only guaranteed three significant characters. 11:51:50 hah 11:52:06 Sounds like they just thought "okay, no-one can be weird enough to use multibyte encodings longer than *this*, can they?" 11:52:38 fizzie, it isn't like any mainstream implementation actually cuts off at that 31 char limit anyway 11:53:26 Well, no. (Also you're guaranteed 63 characters in internal identifiers, and there even Unicode chars count as just one.) 11:53:58 again I doubt any compiler actually cuts off there 11:55:25 C1x also adds u8"foo" UTF-8 string literals, and u"foo" / U"foo" Unicode wide-character (of type char16_t / char32_t, corresponding to UTF-16 / UTF-32, respectively) string literals, and a header for conflaburating in-between things. 11:56:31 I've seen people assume that wchar_t numbers correspond to Unicode code points before; it's I guess nice to have something that in actual fact always does. 11:57:52 Well, or at least "always does if __STDC_UTF_16__ / __STDC_UTF_32__ are defined", which you can compile-time test easily. 11:59:01 fizzie, they don't. iirc they are usually 16 bits 11:59:18 (wchar_t that is) 11:59:29 I have no clue what wchar_t actually corresponds to though 11:59:52 I'm not sure how comfortable-to-use the C1x Unicode support is, since they haven't added anything into the stdio formatted-output functions for that. 12:00:30 hopefully they will add that 12:01:03 It's going to be somewhat messy if they keep the existing "w-stuff" and then add even more "u-stuff" on top. 12:02:46 I doubt they would drop the w stuff 12:02:55 will* 12:03:20 Well, no. But they might not go through all that complexity to add in the u-stuff. 12:03:40 hm the bounds checking stuff looks interesting 12:04:06 Incidentally, these GCC-4.4 parts that pertain to wchar_t are a bit amusing: http://p.zem.fi/wchar 12:05:01 It's like someone's trying to figure out how many ways you can put "wchar" and "t" together for a header-inclusion guard macro name. 12:05:07 heh 12:05:57 fizzie, is this from somewhere in bits/ ? 12:06:06 oh wait, GCC? 12:06:23 /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4/include/stddef.h in my machine. 12:06:32 I thought GCC just provided limits.h and stdarg.h 12:06:46 /* Why is this file so hard to maintain properly? In contrast to 12:06:46 the comment above regarding BSD/386 1.1, on FreeBSD for as long 12:06:46 as the symbol has existed, _BSD_RUNE_T_ must not stay defined or 12:06:46 redundant typedefs will occur when stdlib.h is included after this file. */ 12:06:51 The writer seems somehow depressed. 12:07:04 hah 12:07:12 (The "comment above" was a bit longish to paste.) 12:08:16 /* In case nobody has defined these types, but we aren't running under 12:08:16 GCC 2.00, make sure that __PTRDIFF_TYPE__, __SIZE_TYPE__, and 12:08:16 __WCHAR_TYPE__ have reasonable values. This can happen if the 12:08:16 parts of GCC is compiled by an older compiler, that actually 12:08:16 include gstddef.h, such as collect2. */ 12:08:28 Any time I take a peek inside, I'm surprised that these things actually for the most part do work. 12:09:21 hah 12:09:30 why GCC 2.00? 12:09:33 /* snaroff@next.com says the NeXT needs this. */ /* Irix 5.1 needs this. */ /* This avoids lossage on SunOS but only if stdtypes.h comes first. There's no way to win with the other order! Sun lossage. */ 12:11:33 heh 12:12:08 fizzie, what sort of lossage? 12:12:18 I don't know, and the writer doesn't specify. 12:13:10 fizzie, also "stdtypes.h" sounds suspect. I thought the C standard reserved that prefix 12:14:25 On the topic of "perverse systems": apparently there are some Crays on which size_t is a 32-bit type, as are most pointers, with the exception of "void *"s and "char *"s, which are 64-bit types. (This was in the context of how likely stuffing a pointer into a size_t is to break, as opposed to using uintptr_t which is guaranteed to work but of course only if you actually have uintptr_t and proper .) 12:14:36 fizzie, the bounds checking stuff seems confusing in c1x 12:15:04 fizzie, what about a signed intptr_t? 12:15:31 Well, that too should work, I just wanted to be consistent and use an unsigned type since size_t is one. 12:15:51 ah 12:15:59 fizzie, ssize_t 12:16:20 I always found that one highly suspect 12:16:33 It is a bit iffy, yes. 12:16:50 fizzie, anyway isn't intptr_t/uintptr_t XSI or something? My man page for stdint.h indicates that 12:17:23 They are at least C99 types, though optional. 12:17:28 hm 12:17:33 Since the machine in question simply might not have integers large enough. 12:17:44 :D 12:17:57 (But those Cray boxes do have a 64-bit integer too, it's just that size_t isn't one of them for some interesting reason.) 12:18:29 fizzie, it constantly amazes me that C didn't end up supporting ternary systems 12:20:08 C1x seems to keep the C99 restriction of "it must be either sign-magnitude, one's-complement or two's-complement, not some sort of freaky weird integer encoding". 12:23:39 btw, it is interesting how C99 caused POSIX to restrict CHAR_BIT to exactly 8. IIRC with the restrictions C99 introduced and the old restrictions POSIX had on it, the only possible choice was exactly 8 12:28:06 Mhm, right; that seems to follow from the fact that C99 mandates CHAR_BIT >= 8, and since intN_t must be exactly N bits with no padding or fluff, sizeof(int8_t) must always be 1, and POSIX mandates int{8,16,32}_t. 12:28:54 something like that yes 12:30:15 hm those bounds checking functions seem rather weak 12:30:41 Where does it say that intN_t has to take up N bits of space? 12:30:57 Deewiant: "The typedef name intN_t designates a signed integer type with width N , no padding bits, and a two’s complement representation." 12:31:04 Alright 12:31:09 fizzie, is that C or POSIX? 12:31:24 Well, it was the C1x draft, but I do think it's the same in C99. 12:31:26 I assumed C 12:31:28 ah 12:31:35 (I had that handily open.) 12:32:03 wait, isn't stdio functions with the _s suffix some sort of silliness that MSVC invented? 12:32:22 The "_s for safe"? Yes, I at least thought those were Microsoft things. 12:32:32 fizzie, they seem to be in the C1x draft 12:32:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:32:38 snprintf_s in particular seems utterly silly 12:33:34 "snprintf_s is equivalent to snprintf, adding run-time constraints that restrict format from being null, n being less than zero and less than RSIZE_MAX." 12:34:14 RSIZE_MAX... why on earth 12:34:47 I'm happy with gcc's __attribute__ to warn me about mismatching format strings and null pointers. It works and seems far more useful than that 12:34:52 "ISO/IEC TR 24731-1 recommends that RSIZE_MAX be defined as the smaller of the size of the largest object supported or (SIZE_MAX >> 1), even if this limit is smaller than the size of some legitimate, but very large, objects." 12:36:00 oh god, there is gets_s 12:36:27 but they recommend fgets rather than it 12:36:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:36:47 It seems a bit funny. 12:37:10 no it is tragic 12:37:23 gets_s reads lines, fgets reads strings. 12:37:26 It does the bounds-checking, but "maintains a one-to-one relationship between input lines and successful calls to gets_s. Programs that use gets expect such a relationship." 12:37:48 memcpy_s looks utterly pointless as well 12:37:53 Why would any program use gets? Isn't that the dangerous function/ 12:38:03 Many programs do dangerous things. 12:38:30 really they should have added strlcpy and strlcat, that would have been way more useful 12:39:21 Well, strcpy_s's buffer-size parameter is at least the sensible one. 12:39:50 that is indeed an improvement 12:40:22 Also they seem to be reasonably consistently so that there's always the destination buffer and it's size. 12:40:53 for memcpy it seems utterly pointless however 12:41:35 It's there so that you don't forget to do the check yourself, I guess. 12:41:43 Or to catch it if you do it wrong. 12:42:19 it seems a lot more annoying to use than gcc's and glibc's stuff. 12:42:30 and it doesn't even do as much 12:42:45 no format check for format strings as far as I can see 12:43:06 memset_s seems utterly stupid 12:43:54 What's the "gcc's and glibc's stuff" that's equivalent to these 12:45:08 Deewiant, well -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 does a good job, plus various __attribute__s like nonnull, format, whatever-the-name-was-for-the-one-that-warns-if-you-throw-away-return-value and so on 12:45:44 the fortify source one is closest to this, and is transparent. I believe Ubuntu has it on at level 1 by default 12:47:03 Evidently at 2 12:47:11 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags#-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 12:47:18 Deewiant, also for gcc, it can sometimes turn it into a compile time check when optimising 12:47:22 rather than a runtime check 12:47:50 this is done with various weird __builtin_foo() functions 12:48:05 That can be done with the _s functions as well, depending on their implementation. 12:48:46 Deewiant, true, but they aren't done transparently. Requires more work 12:49:11 No, they require less work of compiler writers. :-P 12:49:41 Deewiant, and they still won't give you a warning if doing something like printf("Error: %s (%d)\n", 42, "Generic error"); 12:49:44 memcpy_s() { if (I don't like your parameters) { abort() or whatever; } else return memcpy(); } 12:50:06 I'd prefer proper "here we actually know the buffer length" checks over "let's put some stuff behind the buffer and see if it gets overwritten" checks. 12:50:12 Vorpal: No, but that's again difficult. 12:50:18 Deewiant, but a lot more useful 12:50:45 It's also a QOI issue and not something that (well, arguably) should be in a language standard. :p 12:50:48 I'm not sure I agree: if printf fails it's at least almost always obvious 12:51:02 If memcpy fails it might just corrupt some unrelated data 12:51:07 fizzie, the latter is still useful. But that isn't what _FORTIFY_SOURCE does afaik. -fstack-protector does that 12:51:45 If it doesn't do that, I don't see how it could even theoretically check for buffer overflows for a dynamically allocated buffer. 12:52:19 Deewiant, but what about memset_s then. Most probably the most common use for it is to zero fill a buffer. You pass it a pointer, a buffer length, a value to fill with, and how much to fill 12:52:38 most of the time people probably use memset to fill an entire buffer 12:52:52 or at least an entire buffer after an offset (in case of realloc or such) 12:53:16 in which case the two lengths will equal each other. Are you going to write two different code paths for them? 12:53:35 If you feel yourself writing memset_s(buf, max, 0, max), maybe you could then just consider writing memset(buf, 0, max) in that particular row? 12:53:58 Though I guess then you won't get the null-pointer runtime constraint checks. 12:54:25 fizzie, sure. I'm just trying to point out that in general these _s variants seem fairly laughably stupid. Possibly with the exception of strcpy_s. 12:54:39 Or strcat_s? 12:54:46 So far only memset_s seems a bit silly 12:54:48 haven't looked at that one *does so* 12:54:55 Deewiant, gets_s too 12:55:02 gets_s is fine. 12:55:10 Deewiant, and snprintf_s 12:55:13 gets_s is fine if you really don't feel like bothering to actually handle long lines. 12:55:17 It's what gets should've been in the first place. 12:56:35 fizzie, okay strcat_s seems reasonable 12:56:54 snprintf_s is another one that just does sensible checks that snprintf should've done, but can't now because of backwards compatibility 12:57:11 Deewiant, the null pointer thing? 12:57:54 No null target or format string, no %n, no null arguments to %s 12:58:18 %n shouldn't have been there in the first place 12:58:22 Not sure what an "encoding error" is for sprintf, that may be sensible as well 12:59:14 From what I can tell, the aim here would be that instead of doing something like assert(buf != NULL); assert(arg != NULL); snprintf(buf, n, "foo: %s", arg); you get a runtime-fail-at-least-sort-of-nicely behaviour with just assert(snprintf_s(buf, n, "foo: %s", arg) >= 0); or some-such. (A bit contrived example, but anyway.) 12:59:36 fizzie, wait, does the checking depend on NDEBUG? 12:59:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:59:40 if so that is awful 12:59:42 And the "you can't pass buffer sizes that span more than half the address space" seems fairly reasonable too, at least by default 12:59:43 Well, no. 13:00:00 I was meaning an always-on assert here. :p 13:00:18 Deewiant, that depends. Though I doubt anyone will be insane enough to use this on an embedded system anyway 13:00:26 at least not the tiny ones 13:00:30 Like said, by default 13:00:54 It seems like a good default, but it should be overrideable 13:01:35 it would be better to add saner strings instead 13:01:53 pascal style: 13:01:54 or such 13:02:52 Atomo reminds me a little of Factor 13:05:26 bbl 13:25:02 Vorpal: The stack-smashing protection seems to still have this old data leak problem too: http://p.zem.fi/memcpy.c 13:40:46 fizzie, err. What happened there 13:41:38 fizzie, also uh, doesn't look like a major issue that it reports the new value. Aids in debugging certainly 13:41:49 Those values are my own printfs. 13:42:07 then what is the data leak? 13:42:36 In the fact that the "you smashed the stack" error message will blindly follow the new overwritten argv[0] value, and print it out. 13:42:50 If this were a suid-something program, you could use that to read out anything in its address space. 13:42:52 ah 13:42:57 hm indeed 13:43:42 Here I've just read out the "SECRET DATA" string which I could pick from the executable, or just read from /proc I guess, but it's more problematical for suid executables that, say, read out /etc/shadow in memory, then after that have a (exploitable) buffer overflow somewhere. 13:44:15 hm indeed 13:45:10 Anyway, it's an old thing, there's at least one mail about it in Apr 2010 on the full-disclosure mailing list; and I guess it's possible it's already fixed, I'm not exactly using the latest tools here at work. 13:52:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:53:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:06:33 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:07:28 MY COMPUTER HUNG UP AND I DIDN'T REBOOT IT IMMEDIATELY 14:07:35 MY LIFE IS BEGINNING TO SHATTER 14:23:07 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 14:24:39 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:04:35 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:08:34 "mkdir: cannot create directory `misc': No space left on device" -- that's always a nice thing to get from the "project work" filesystem. 15:24:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:25:14 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:25:31 -!- cheater00 has joined. 15:26:06 fizzie, quotas? 15:26:21 MY COMPUTER HUNG UP AND I DIDN'T REBOOT IT IMMEDIATELY <-- do you have a hardware watchdog? 15:26:26 No, just a 3.7 terabyte NFS share that is full. 15:26:30 fizzie, hah 15:26:38 They keep talking about implementing quotas, though. 15:26:44 I think home directories already have some. 15:27:02 fizzie, I'd like a "hilbert's SSD". 15:27:09 Filesystem blocks quota limit grace files quota limit grace 15:27:10 2277M 4096M 4096M 21218 4295m 4295m 15:27:18 Yes, there is a home directory quota. 15:27:22 4G, I guess. 15:27:25 heh 15:27:57 I should probably clean ~ some day, since there should be mostly code, documents and stuff like that in there. 15:29:07 Vorpal: what would you do with it? it's unlikely you'll ever have an infinite amount of data arriving at once. 15:29:43 quintopia, yes but even if you have a finite amount you will always have space for it 15:30:30 Also you don't ever need to erase data, so the SSD write-cycle-durability thing shouldn't be an issue. 15:30:59 quintopia, and in the unlikely event that someone gives you a full HilbertFlashCard you can always copy it all to the SSD 15:31:13 (note: you need a good data bus for this) 15:31:25 fizzie, that too 15:31:36 fizzie, except hm you do need to move data, don't you? 15:31:46 oh wait I guess it remaps that 15:32:09 If you restrict yourself to getting only finite amounts of data, you can always just append. 15:32:38 fizzie, that seems like a rather arbitrary limitation 15:33:09 yeah, those realistic assumptions always seem so arbitrary 15:33:18 :D 15:35:39 i suspect seek times would get ridiculous if you need to retrieve data at infinity though 15:35:48 quintopia, on an SSD? 15:35:58 quintopia, they don't have seek times 15:36:14 they do if they're infinite 15:36:34 the time for the address to get mapped to the correct location and the data to return 15:36:35 quintopia, besides there is no point infinity. Hilbert's hotel iirc deals with potential infinities 15:37:00 there is an infinite amount of wiring needed there and the signal has to travel at the slow slow speed of light 15:37:17 quintopia, hm true 15:37:24 My Pandora shipped. 15:37:28 TO THE WRONG ADDRESS. 15:37:32 Mail forwarding, don't fail me now. 15:37:39 yes i know, but imagine retrieiving data from the following sequence of addresses: 2,4,8,16 etc. 15:37:39 quintopia, unless we just keep halving the size forever 15:37:46 quintopia, then it can fit into a finite space 15:38:01 after a while each successive bit will take enormously long time to arrive 15:38:17 quintopia, in fact you can do that in two minute. Half it after 1 minute. Half it after another half minute, then 15 seconds, and so on 15:38:29 then after 2 minutes you fitted it all into an infinitely small disk 15:38:59 infinitely small? you mean infinitely fine-grained resolution? 15:39:18 i suppose that works, but requires some creative manipulation of physics locally 15:39:32 quintopia, well duh :P 15:40:29 Gregor: I feel tempted to shout "Don't open that box!" 15:40:41 fizzie: Yeah, it's a poor name :P 15:41:05 what is a pandora again? 15:41:21 Linux-based game system. 15:41:32 how many games does it have? 15:41:38 so far I mean 15:41:45 Zero, or thousands if you include emulators X-P 15:41:49 hah 15:42:10 Gregor, can it run bsnes? I bet pikhq will ask you about this anyway 15:42:17 so I'm saving time by asking you now 15:42:24 Probably, it can emulate a PSX ... 15:42:35 But if you really want to run bsnes, you're a durp :P 15:42:43 Gregor, "durp"? 15:42:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:42:52 Gregor, hm that sounds rather impressive. What are the specs? And what about battery life 15:42:55 Asking what a durp is is such a durp question to ask. 15:43:00 oh is it like those super-awesome handheld gaming things they have on thinkgeek for hundreds of dollars? 15:43:17 http://openpandora.org/ 15:43:20 using google's "define:" I get "No definitions were found for durp." 15:44:33 Gregor, looks nice. Was it made with reprap? ;) 15:46:01 holy shit 15:46:05 it's got everything 15:46:08 :P 15:46:18 quintopia, except a keyboard large enough to use 15:46:23 quintopia: That's 'cuz it's expensive :P 15:46:38 Gregor, is it li-ion? 15:46:48 Vorpal: it's a fucking handheld gaming platform. wtf do you want a keyboard for? 15:46:48 Donno :P 15:46:49 Specwise the hardware is really close to my phone. (Which is also 600 MHz Cortex-A8 ARM + TI 64x DSP + PowerVR SGX530 GPU with a 800x480 touchscreen. Of course the phone's keyboard is really not-for-gaming.) 15:47:12 quintopia, hm. chatting in minecraft or something ;) 15:48:04 Vorpal: work on your texting speed. you can type surprisingly fast with your thumbs with practice 15:48:44 quintopia, depends. Not like I text very often. 15:49:01 4-5 SMS / week? Something like that 15:49:23 quintopia, also I fail to see how it would help with that gaming console 15:49:25 i irc on my phone. i'm not as fast as keyboard yet, but working on it 15:49:34 a keypad is very different from a qwerty layout 15:49:41 well, you have to practice on the gaming console obviously 15:49:59 ohhhhhhhhhhh you don't have a qwerty keyboard on your phone 15:50:01 i see 15:50:16 quintopia, I use phones until they break :P 15:51:10 quintopia, besides if I can't use it with gloves on it isn't worth the money. And resistive touchscreens seem to be getting rare. 15:51:57 yes, you live in a place where you can't get by with thin gloves, don't you 15:52:18 quintopia, indeed. I use very thick ones when it is -20 C outside and blowing hard. And snowing. 15:52:27 in any case, my qwerty keyboard has actual buttons 15:52:31 buttons are nice 15:52:32 That happened a few weeks ago. Had to use phone to check bus schedule 15:52:42 The physical keyboards don't tend to be large enough for gloveing either. 15:52:55 I tend to just poke at the on-screen keyboard if it's too cold out there. 15:52:57 fizzie: agreed. best to have fingerless mittens in that case 15:53:00 fizzie, indeed. You can manage keypad if you are careful 15:53:10 quintopia, that is not really an option around here 15:53:35 Vorpal: it is an option anywhere! fingerless mittens are the greatest thing ever! 15:53:36 Vorpal: Don't get an iPhone, they blow up at <0 degrees C and Apple's warranty only covers use in 0-35 degrees C. (There was a case in Norway.) 15:53:50 fizzie, hah 15:53:54 perfect finger coverage when you need it, no hassles when you don't! 15:53:57 fizzie, I wouldn't get one anyway 15:54:30 because droid >>>>>>>>>> iphone 15:54:49 quintopia, yeah and maemo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> droid 15:54:58 Maemo's pretty much dead now. :p 15:55:08 fizzie, well meego then? 15:55:10 Will see how it goes with MeeGo, right. 15:56:46 They're setting up some sort of a "community firmware update" repository thing for Maemo, since you can't (easily) update packages that are classified as "system" packages from the normal community repositories, and there are quite a few bugfix-patches existing for the system packages too. 15:56:47 why is meego better than droid? what carriers does it work with? 15:57:14 The whole "what carriers does it work with?" thing is something I just never get. Around here the iPhone is the only thing that is ever carrier-locked. 15:57:14 quintopia, how would the carrier depend on the phone OS? 15:57:22 quintopia, that makes no sense 15:57:58 Vorpal: Welcome to the US. 15:57:59 you buy a phone. Then you buy a SIM card. Then you combine the two. 15:58:01 Also, stop calling it "droid" 15:58:07 Vorpal: i judge a phone by the hardware first, the carrier second, and the OS third 15:58:23 quintopia, well we have no clue since things are not generally carrier locked around here 15:58:32 quintopia: Vorpal refuses to understand how phones work in the US. It's not that he can't, he chooses not to. 15:58:36 Gregor: i'm referring to the motorola droid and droid 2. that's their official name. 15:58:53 quintopia: Oh, since Vorpal was comparing it to maemo I thought we were talking about Android :P 15:58:54 quintopia, ah I thought you meant "android" 15:59:40 quintopia, anyway if you want a specific phone look at n900 (maemo). Don't think meego is in any phone yet, but it is the successor to maemo 16:00:45 Also, Android rules :P 16:00:48 MeeGo is sort of a hybrid of Maemo and Intel's Moblin. (And I'm a bit doubtful as to how well it'll go.) 16:02:32 yeah the n900 looks roughly equivalent to the droid in terms of hardware 16:02:36 Gregor, too much java 16:02:44 maemo is more gtk (yay) 16:02:48 It's not REAL Java X-P 16:02:50 ew gtk 16:02:58 quintopia, iirc meego is qt 16:02:59 not sure 16:04:28 ANYWAY, Pandora. 16:04:28 Hopin' I actually get mine. 16:04:43 I wanted to write ZEE for it, but have no story/photo person >_> 16:05:02 Gregor, isn't zee js? 16:05:06 so it should work on there 16:05:30 Vorpal: Well, I mean it was the possibility of the Pandora being a nice platform for it that led me to want a Pandora :P 16:05:39 (In part) 16:06:02 hah 16:06:17 My Eternally Stalled Project *sigh* 16:07:04 Android schmandroid: isn't it so that even on those supposedly "open" phones you have some sort of "jailbreaks"? 16:07:27 fizzie, that's a function of the manufacturers, not Android itself 16:07:44 Also MeeGo is now Qt instead of GTK. 16:07:45 fizzie: On the actually "open" phones you don't, the ones that you have to "jailbreak" don't claim to be open. 16:07:59 fizzie: However, unlike iPhone, you don't have to jailbreak to run custom software. 16:08:05 Gregor, how many are open then 16:08:14 Vorpal: Only the "developer" ones. 16:08:31 Vorpal: i.e. ones bought directly via Google. 16:08:44 Gregor, so in practise they are all closed? 16:09:04 Vorpal: Yes. But a closed Android phone is nowhere NEAR as restricted as a closed iPhone. It's not even a valid comparison. 16:09:22 Gregor, but it is closed compared to an n900! 16:09:33 Fair enough *shrugs* 16:09:53 i don't know how hard it is to root an android phone 16:10:00 quintopia, depends on the phone 16:10:02 And the N900 is closed compared to openmoko. 16:10:05 quintopia, what about compiling a custom kernel? 16:10:07 but developer phones are already rooted 16:10:21 yeah, developers effectively get root 16:10:29 with non-developers, it varies 16:10:34 The point is not "how hard", it shouldn't be necessary at all. 16:10:44 fizzie, indeed 16:11:09 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:11:10 if you buy hardware it should be yours. And it should be up to you what you do with it 16:11:20 this is true, but the apps that depend on rooting target a very small portion of the market, so they are unlikely to change that. 16:11:50 fizzie: For the iPhone, it's basically Apple douchebaggery. For Android, it's mainly around preventing arbitrary /apps/ from getting root, and not giving random-idiot-user the idea that there is such a thing. 16:12:00 quintopia, oh right, they don't even come with a proper native userland. 16:12:37 N900 comes with an xterm in the app menu. 16:12:47 Here's the problem: Propose a solution that would allow developers to root without putting total morons in possible jeopardy (keep in mind that morons will click "yes" and put in their password for any reason) 16:12:48 awesome 16:13:16 Gregor, n900 seems to have managed without major issues 16:13:23 Vorpal: n900 has no users. 16:13:27 Vorpal: it does have a unixy filesystem with all of the unixy programs you'd expect though. you can throw a shell on it right off and start doing unixy things. 16:13:33 Gregor, fizzie uses it 16:13:41 Vorpal: Like I said. 16:13:58 I'm a nobody?! 16:14:10 compared to average joe user, yes 16:14:19 fizzie, seems like that nasty evil Gregor thinks so 16:14:21 you are not a significant demographic 16:14:40 fizzie: You're not a USER, people who actually know how the OS works are 0.000000001% of the target market. 16:15:54 if computers were cars, almost no one would pass the driving test. 16:16:37 Vorpal: Most people who use computers without full knowledge don't end up hitting someone with their computer and killing them. 16:17:01 Gregor, quite, they end up sending a lot of spam 16:17:41 Vorpal: Also, the vast majority of drivers in the US couldn't tell you what a transmission is. 16:17:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:18:03 driving a car doesn't require you to know how to do an oil change, as sad as that sounds. there are people you can pay to do it for you 16:18:12 Gregor: Maemo forums are full of real users. (Complaining about Nokia selling them this confusing... thing.) 16:18:13 Gregor, do you mean not tell how it works, or do you mean how to use it? 16:18:48 Vorpal: I mean if you said "Does your car have a transmission?", they would say "Durrr, what's that?" 16:19:03 i'm not sure if vast majority would say that 16:19:14 probably a good number of folks with automatics would 16:19:24 but people with sticks probably have some idea 16:19:24 quintopia: Which is ... everyone in the US :P 16:19:28 Gregor, but uh, do they not know how to change gear? 16:20:00 Vorpal: see previously line about automatic transmission 16:20:00 Vorpal: Manual gearshifts are a slim minority of power-users and mocked sports-car-morons in the US. 16:20:06 at least here the driving exam is on manual transmission 16:20:18 heck you hardly ever see automatic transmission around 16:20:23 actually, now it seems like everything's going to CVTs...wonder how long it will be 16:20:26 Vorpal: Why is that "at least"? I don't know how to drive a manual, that doesn't make me a bad driver. 16:20:54 Gregor, at least as in "at least in this part of Europe, but I don't know about other parts of it" 16:21:40 Gregor, I fail to see where I implied automatic is bad (except it is less fuel efficient iirc) 16:22:08 quintopia, CVT? 16:22:16 "at least" -> "to suggest that you have to be at least a little bit competent," :P 16:22:35 vorpal: you know. those things without discrete "gears". 16:22:39 ;P 16:22:48 Gregor, at least = anyway 16:22:58 Gregor, says google. It can have many meanings. 16:23:10 X-P 16:23:16 tbf, i did read it gregor's way at first 16:23:36 it is a very ambiguous phrase 16:23:41 quintopia, hm that CVT interesting. How does that work internally I wonder. 16:23:49 Vorpal: MAGIC. 16:23:53 Vorpal: see howstuffworks article 16:24:02 it explains 3 or 4 different types of CVT 16:24:07 quintopia, I was actually checking wikipedia 16:24:50 National Hat Day (USA) is January 15th 16:24:52 Discuss. 16:25:29 i suspect that everything that doesn't need immense amounts of torque and speed simultaneously will eventually be on CVTs in the next half-century or so. They seem much more fuel-efficient than "modern" transmissions 16:25:44 -!- j-invariant has joined. 16:25:53 Gregor: oh goody. i have just the hat. 16:26:36 DISCUSSION INSUFFICIENT :P 16:27:35 regarding the number which nobody noticed between three and four: I have managed to take a solved rubicks cube and twist it into an unsolvable state 16:27:35 quintopia, hm indeed. I suppose you can manually override them for when the road conditions need different gear? Or I guess computers can detect such nowdays 16:28:52 j-invariant, ... what 16:28:52 yep. automatic traction control 16:29:03 quintopia, I presume most cars have that? 16:29:10 sure 16:29:11 since it is likely to be needed quite often 16:29:24 quintopia, then certainly people will know what transmission is 16:29:30 less often than you'd think around here. this weather is the exception, not the rule 16:29:43 quintopia, I'm sure there are parts of US where that is not the case 16:30:05 Even here in Indiana where it snows all winter, the roads are plowed well enough that you never need to even use chains. 16:30:06 Alaska comes to mind. But even in northen mainland US... 16:30:43 Gregor, plowing doesn't help when you get rain which freezes as it hits the ground. 16:30:48 Last winter I drove an automatic Toyota Echo from Oregon to Indiana and never had to set the gear manually X-P 16:30:54 Vorpal: Salting does. 16:31:45 Gregor, only when it doesn't get cold very quickly after. This happened last week or so here. Dropped from -1 C with rain to -20 C in a few hours (rain stopped when it went below -3 C or so) 16:31:55 Gregor, no time to pour salt on every small street 16:32:08 sand helps to some degree 16:32:21 and salt doesn't work when it is really cold 16:32:56 I think you've just reduced the affected population of the US to near-zero. 16:33:08 Gregor, I can't say that sort of weather is common here 16:33:26 but this winter and the one before have been extreme 16:33:42 The six people in Minnesota who have experienced such weather were simply snowed in :P 16:34:02 Gregor, what about Alaska? 16:34:12 They fly or walk, driving is much less common there. 16:34:40 The southern part of Alaska is more temperate, and the rest isn't accessible by road. 16:35:32 hm 16:36:48 Gregor, I guess they could use snowmobiles or similar. They are popular in the extreme northern parts of Sweden 16:36:50 Although yes, I'm sure that those who drive know damn well how to drive a manual :P 16:37:37 I wouldn't know how to drive an automatic. Manual I know. 16:37:56 I don't think it's possible to not know how to drive an automatic. You could learn in thirty seconds. 16:38:10 vorpal: a lot of people in AK don't drive all winter i hear. that's what their bushplanes are for :P 16:38:45 quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P 16:39:07 Vorpal: If you live in Alaska, you have one. (OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not as much of one as you think) 16:39:12 being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too 16:39:46 Gregor, how many pedals do you have in an automatic? The usual three? 16:39:54 `addquote vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too 16:39:56 well, everyone in AK are close friends with each other anyway. hell, they can see russia from their front porch :P 16:39:58 Vorpal: No clutch. 16:40:25 266) vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too 16:40:28 Gregor, how do you prevent rolling backwards if you are starting uphill then? 16:41:10 Vorpal: That's what your fancy automatic transmission is for. 16:41:17 yeah, it just doesn't happen 16:41:40 idling speed gives you a little bit of forward momentum all the time 16:41:44 because it's always engaged 16:42:11 quintopia, so what if you want to stand still, say, waiting for traffic to pass before crossing a major road? Brake down? 16:42:16 yep 16:42:24 keep the brake down or put it in neutral 16:42:25 Or put it in park if you're there for very long. 16:42:41 quintopia, sounds like it would take more time to start driving from that 16:42:54 why? 16:43:07 you don't have to shift first 16:43:14 you just move your foot to the other pedal... 16:43:19 quintopia, nor would you with a manual transmission 16:43:45 Vorpal: All you have to do is LIFT your foot from the brake to start moving forward. 16:43:46 you would just release the clutch more than the equilibrium point. Since you would be in the first gear 16:43:55 yes well 16:44:03 Gregor, hm true. About the same then 16:44:05 you also have to do a lot of work to get up to speed after that 16:44:15 quintopia, with manual? Not really. 16:44:22 quintopia, it comes naturally after all 16:44:28 once you learnt it 16:44:41 so does the automatic...naturally as in...you don't do anything :P 16:44:54 still. CVTs. way of the future. 16:45:05 quintopia, yes they sound interesting indeed. 16:50:24 so, question: would you rather have to start a process by pressing 5 buttons in quick succession and then walking away, or by pressing two buttons with a wait of approximately one second in between them. total time is about the same, but in the first case you have to do more work and in the second you have to stand there and do nothing for a whole second. 16:50:57 quintopia, I would prefer the one that worked on road conditions around here :P 16:51:20 specifically, this is the coice i have for setting my microwave to 1:30 16:51:26 (it runs on no roads around there) 16:51:52 quintopia, well then, that depends on that operation. I guess I would prefer the one I could run netbsd on 16:53:51 you're creating differences between the two operations that aren't there. this is just two different ways to do the same operation on the same microwave. the only difference is the one i gave and there are no other differences. 16:54:36 quintopia, I would probably choose randomly between them each time. And also wonder what the point of two ways on the same product was 16:55:04 then I would realise it was Perl, not Python 16:56:54 lol 16:57:08 this somehow moved me this morning: http://everything2.com/user/Wolfeh42/writeups/January+13%252C+2011 17:01:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:03:38 Star Trek Table of Elementa is very mixed up. 17:04:46 quintopia, hm how can you engine brake with automatic? Sure a bit would work but you couldn't control it very well. 17:06:11 Vorpal: Automatic has gears other than "drive", they're not commonly used though. Basically if you put it in first gear, then the engine will clutch and change gears for you when possible. 17:06:26 Vorpal: "Engine breaking" is a technique not commonly known in the US though, I suspect. 17:06:52 Gregor, here you won't pass driving test if you can't do it nowdays. Because it saves fuel to use it. 17:07:40 Vorpal: It saves fuel on a manual, on an automatic you'll automatically shift down if you brake and slow down anyway. 17:08:16 It also saves on brake pads though :P 17:08:43 Gregor, if you brake you will surely still engange the brake pads. Which means less fuel saving since more energy gets lost as heat. Simple physics. 17:09:00 Hey, MC now has two kinds of wood. 17:09:05 That's actually quite cool. 17:09:08 Phantom_Hoover, update out? 17:09:10 hm 17:09:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:09:38 I thought it was a bug, but then I tried cutting it down. 17:09:59 Vorpal: I'm not arguing that the fuel savings are the SAME, I'm arguing that it's more of a deal for manual than for automatic. 17:10:07 well ok 17:10:19 Phantom_Hoover, screenshot? I'm using the alternative launcher thingy so I don't need to update to login. 17:10:45 i engine break when i need to, on steep winding rodes 17:10:51 exactly the way gregor describes 17:10:59 ugh 17:11:02 I'm not sure I'm going to upgrade until ineiros update. And that probably means waiting for bukkit (horrible name), since hmod will be dropped 17:11:02 *engine brake 17:11:03 Vorpal, http://imgur.com/TgHcQ 17:11:05 he's got me doing it now 17:11:17 I'm going to look for reeds. 17:11:26 Phantom_Hoover, oh, looks like birch? 17:11:26 Basically, to drive an automatic: Forget everything you ever learned about shifting. If you want to go forward, put it in "D". If you want to go backwards, put it in "R". If you want to park, put it in "P". If you don't want to move or want to slow down, use the brake. That is literally everything there is that is necessary to drive an automatic. 17:11:33 Phantom_Hoover, or whatever the English word is 17:11:33 Vorpal, yeah. 17:11:37 björk in Swedish 17:11:54 Phantom_Hoover, I guess painterly is broken now? 17:12:04 Vorpal, haven't tried it. 17:12:06 Probably. 17:12:14 gregor: don't forget overdrive 17:12:19 Gregor, and if you want to drive in bad winter conditions? 17:12:25 quintopia: Why? Most people do. 17:12:26 FWIW, I can see a very tall tree with all of the leaves bunched up at the top in a snowy biome. 17:12:34 i have to put overdrive on above 45mph to keep the engine from winding up way too high 17:12:35 Vorpal: Then you put on chains and suffer. 17:12:46 quintopia: ... you turn overdrive /off/? 17:12:55 Gregor, chains? You mean winter wheels with steel studs 17:13:01 dubbdäck in Swedish 17:13:04 Gregor: below 45mph to keep the engine from running too slow 17:13:08 Vorpal: No, I mean chains. 17:13:22 quintopia: You're a poor excuse for an automatic driver X-P 17:13:33 note that OD on my van is a separate gear and not a button on the shifter 17:13:34 Gregor, you don't use studded wheels? 17:14:02 studded wheels? 17:14:05 what are those? 17:14:05 Vorpal: Not typically. I have a set of chains for the rare occasion that I need more winter traction (read: never), it would be a huge waste to have winter wheels. 17:14:09 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu. 17:14:09 they are surely a myth 17:14:25 quintopia, not around here 17:14:30 most people have them 17:14:40 In most locales in the US they're wildly illegal. 17:15:08 Gregor, NOT IN ALASKA I BET ;P 17:15:28 DURPADURP! 17:15:40 Vorpal, http://imgur.com/Jmvfm 17:15:46 Vorpal: Last I checked, the vast majority of the US is MORE TEMPERATE than Swedeland! SHOCKA 17:15:57 Probably meant to be a conifer. 17:15:58 Gregor, they are only legal during winter here. And during winter you have to use them (or non-studded snow tires) to be legal 17:16:04 HUMANZZZZZZzzzzz 17:16:17 * cheater00 shoots death rays out of his empty eyesockets 17:16:20 Phantom_Hoover, nice 17:16:23 Vorpal: Can't use chains at all, or they're just not even something done there? 17:16:54 Gregor, rarely used. Legal if conditions warrants it iirc 17:17:01 very rare 17:17:35 Gregor, but iirc you have to stop and take them off if you get onto a road that don't need them. Which make them inconvenient for most drivers. 17:18:06 as opposed to taking them off at full speed? i can see how that saves time 17:18:12 Vorpal: Both chains and studded tires beat the hell out of dry roads. 17:18:13 cheater00, :P 17:18:22 :P 17:18:32 Gregor, well yes. But you will have a hard time finding dry roads here this time of the year. 17:18:46 Gregor, anyway they save lives compared to non-studded winter tires. 17:18:57 Vorpal: So do chains :P 17:19:14 Gregor, true. Still they are not very common. 17:20:18 Gregor, also limits speed more iirc 17:22:05 Vorpal, FWIW, the normal and birch wood don't actually stack on each other. 17:22:10 Vorpal: Again, Sweden vs. USA. We don't swap our actual /tires/ because the need for added traction is only warranted some tiny amount of the time, and in some tiny amount of roads. The vast majority of roads are either plowed and drivable with any ol' all-weather tire, or completely snowed over and not drivable no matter how good your tire augmentation is (i.e. snowmobilable), with the latter being a very small set. 17:22:22 Phantom_Hoover, well seems reasonable 17:22:56 They also both refine to normal planks. 17:22:57 Gregor, plowing doesn't perfectly clean a road however. 17:23:04 Phantom_Hoover, okay that makes less sense 17:23:22 Phantom_Hoover, what about other crafting from them? 17:23:28 (is there some?) 17:23:40 None that I know of, although I didn't really bother experimenting. 17:24:01 "* Reeds magically turned into sugar canes. They still make paper." 17:24:02 what 17:24:07 that's sad 17:24:14 it's to make cake 17:24:22 Also, Birch makes better root beer (birch beer) than conventional Sarsparilla/Sassafras (or artificial imitations thereof), but noooo, birch beer is hard to find. 17:24:24 j-invariant, he could add a separate ones 17:24:25 one* 17:24:38 In a studded tire, there may only be up to 50 studs per metre (of circumference), and the maximum extent out of the tire surface is 1.2 mm. (Was trying to find out the state of winter tireage in Finland.) 17:24:41 I'm assuming that they're weird Minecraft canes. 17:24:50 fizzie, heh 17:25:10 "* One secret useful block" <-- mhm 17:25:11 Gregor: birch beer is deliciouuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssssssssss 17:25:26 "* Paintings work in multiplayer" <--- yay finally 17:25:27 quintopia: I KNOW RIGHT 17:25:37 what's that company that makes all those fruit sodas? 17:25:50 December, January and Feburary are the obligatory winter-tire months here. 17:25:51 they made a birch one once and i've NEVER SEEN IT AGAIN SINCE. 17:25:52 "* Fixed colors going weird on PowerPC" <-- how did that happen 17:26:06 Notch quality engineering, that's how! 17:26:25 My bet: endianness. 17:26:27 "* Fixed most lighting bugs in newly generated SMP maps" <--- newly generated. Right. Well I guess it is better than making the server load everything on next start. 17:26:29 When elliott comes in I am just going to tell him the changes were "there's cake and also two new types of tree." 17:26:35 could fix it on the fly maybe 17:26:50 Phantom_Hoover, the cake is a lie surely? 17:26:55 Oho, reeds! 17:27:03 Phantom_Hoover, screenshot? 17:27:21 They look exactly the same. 17:27:25 They craft into sugar. 17:27:28 ... 17:29:22 Vorpal: Re hMod, he just said that it will be dropped when bukkit is ready; my guess is it might still get a Beta 1.2 update. (Unless you've seen something further on it.) 17:29:33 (There are, after all, >1 contributor to the hMod repo.) 17:29:49 Perhaps I should have kept a reed handy to start a farm to try to craft cake. 17:30:45 pretty sure I saw that it wouldn't be upgraded 17:30:48 You make cake ... out of reeds? 17:30:50 Yummy. 17:31:03 fizzie, not official however 17:31:42 The only thing I saw was the hMod thread, which still states "Bukkit will be superseding hMod. Once Bukkit is ready, hMod will no longer be updated. I no longer have an interest in Minecraft, so this change is for the best." .. and I think Bukkit is quite far from being ready. 17:32:04 I have to say that I think this update is the best since Halloween. 17:32:09 It actually adds things. 17:32:28 A water mob! Dyes! Cake! 17:33:05 Black sheep! 17:33:50 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 17:33:57 I don't think I have ever milked a cow in MC; I didn't even know they were milkable. 17:33:57 Apparently flowers craft to dye now. 17:34:34 fizzie: What else is milkable? 17:34:48 Logically, all mammals should be, but I'm betting that's not the case! 17:34:55 Probably nothing else. 17:35:05 * Gregor sips from his tall glass of pig's milk. 17:35:09 Sheep are shearable, cows are milkable, pigs are ridable. 17:35:18 The right tool.. er, animal, for the right job. 17:35:41 And chickens are... a nuisance? 17:35:49 can you not kick them? 17:35:59 IF YOU KICK THEM, DO THEY NOT BLEED? 17:36:09 Yes, but that's not a chicken-specific act, you can kick the other animals too. 17:36:17 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:36:22 seems like chickens should fly farther though 17:36:23 fizzie, they're a source of feathers. 17:36:25 And eggs. 17:37:02 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you can't do a thing to them. 17:37:18 Well, eggs are now used in cake. 17:37:46 Can you bake them? 17:37:56 Fry them? 17:37:58 Deep-fry them? 17:38:35 Deep-deep-deep-deep-deep-deep-fry them. 17:39:18 Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, you can't do a chicken-specific act that would result a chicken dropping an egg; there's nothing you can do by right-clicking them. 17:39:44 Shallow-fried chicken, for those who want the insides to be raw. 17:40:26 Well can you at LEAST bugger 'em? 17:41:08 They 17:41:14 're not hedgehogs, so I'd *guess*. 17:41:58 In-game I mean 17:42:00 There are also octopodes now. 17:42:11 Phantom_Hoover: OCTOPODES, NO! 17:42:22 They drop ink sacs when they die, so I assume they're another source of dye. 17:42:24 Phantom_Hoover: And the Minepedia already has pages "Octopus", "Octopi" and "Squid" for it. 17:42:45 Anyhow, where else do you get dye from? 17:42:48 But the plural is "octopodes"! 17:43:04 Phantom_Hoover: http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13217&start=100#p251044 17:43:07 Crafting flowers or killing octopodes. 17:44:11 "Inflections: Plural octopuses, octopi, (rare) octopodes" 17:44:15 You're a rare fellow. 17:45:52 what does that say about platypus? 17:46:27 "Inflections: Plural platypuses, platypi, (rare) platypusses, (rare) platypodes." 17:46:31 Where that == OED. 17:46:46 fizzie, I do like the fact that the pretentious-but-not-actually-correct version is the accepted plural. 17:47:18 well, the relevant part is being pretentious, not being correct 17:47:20 eh, i'll keep my platypoda anyway 17:47:23 Phantom_Hoover: They don't list "octopussies" as a valid plural, however. 17:47:42 I'll keep my PLÖTSPLÄTS anyway. 17:48:00 fizzie: octopussies is the only accepted plural of octopussy 17:48:26 PLATYPODES, NO! 17:49:19 Speaking of which, beta 1.2 unsuprisingly breaks mcmap. 17:49:24 Gregor: Platypode, I choose you! 17:51:19 "I added a player list to the client as a gui hack. But then I realized it just listed players in range, not everyone." "So that's a revert. Next update!" 17:51:33 I wonder if in next update it's going to send other-player coordinates too, or just their names. 17:52:11 -!- elliott has joined. 17:53:09 the alternative launcher works perfectly 17:53:18 what alternative launcher 17:53:23 19:31:49 My dad accidentally threw out the melatonin 17:53:24 19:32:00 I was planning on sleeping tonight 17:53:25 yes. accidentally. 17:53:27 elliott, the one that asks about updating 17:53:32 ah. 17:53:44 elliott, since there was an update a few hours ago 17:53:55 * elliott creates .minecraft/launcher 17:54:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:55:18 Vorpal: I'm planning on making my Minecraft the most ridiculously CPU and GPU-intensive program ever. 17:55:22 Minecrysis. 17:55:56 hah 17:57:03 Vorpal: Specifically, I am going to use an HD texture pack (probably Aza's), run on far/fancy, have Better Light installed, and use that arbitrary-GLSL-shader module, with the modified Depth of Field shader (and possibly the Even Better Light one the author showed, if it's released and I can get them to merge; it basically did full lighting, including redstone torch lighing being red, with shaders; beautiful screenshot). 17:57:13 elliott, well new blocks so if you update you need to use the standard texture pack for now 17:57:17 or things will look weird 17:57:29 Sure. But it's the principle. 17:57:46 It'll look ridiculously good. 17:57:54 * One secret useful block 17:57:54 * One secret pretty block 17:58:00 Go away, Notch. We can see your textures. 17:58:24 elliott: Maybe you could use some sort of a custom vertex/geometry shader/mod that'd also smooth the block edges so that the terrain wouldn't be so blocky! 17:58:29 elliott: all that just to make it like a pre-1995 game? 17:58:41 cheater00: It... does not really look pre-1995 like that. 17:58:56 in what way does it look pre 1995 then? 17:59:03 Not ever? 17:59:16 "ever" is not a way 17:59:20 it's a time specifier :p 17:59:27 "Not in any way" 17:59:33 ^ 17:59:44 Gregor wins the spelling bee prize!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 17:59:54 elliott, so going to use the alternative launcher and play on the server? 18:00:12 I doubt it, the server will probably go vanilla soon. 18:00:19 elliott, well until then 18:00:26 cheater00: OH BOY IM GONNA USE IT TOO BYE ALOT OF CANDY 18:00:29 depth of field example: http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110107at111.jpg/ 18:00:31 with aza's texture pack 18:00:34 cheater00: pre-1995 eh? 18:00:49 elliott: i bet it could run on this: http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop 18:00:56 >_< 18:00:57 oh go away 18:01:12 :p 18:01:15 Vorpal: here's the really cool (and afaik unreleased) one, shader light: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/ 18:01:19 looks amazing 18:01:31 depth of field example: http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110107at111.jpg/ <-- this reminds me of those clay-animation games somehow. 18:01:46 elliott: the polycount is the giveaway 18:01:47 elliott, it looks like it is made out of cardboard boxes and so on. 18:01:51 Vorpal: ha 18:01:54 elliott: there were DOF mods for unreal 1 engine 18:01:58 cheater00: who cares 18:02:01 it looks pretty 18:02:01 which was pre-1995! 18:02:05 just saying :p 18:02:09 games in 1995 did not look like that, in general. 18:02:21 unreal's lighting was very good 18:02:27 elliott, new MC things! 18:02:32 MORE TYPES OF TREE! 18:02:34 and it had dynamic lighting 18:02:35 elliott, I mean it really looks like someone made a miniature set and took photos in it. The other one is nice 18:02:37 The first Unreal game was released in 1998. 18:02:49 yeah the depth of field is a bit extreme, i'd tweak it a bit 18:02:49 yes, but the first tech demo was leaked in 94 18:02:51 Vorpal: btw, mipmapping, to stop the ugly warping when playing on far: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/ 18:03:05 Vorpal: e.g. look at the stairs on far, look around, notice it warbling 18:03:08 Vorpal: have you seen those photos of real life that are minified? :D 18:03:10 elliott, isn't there anisotropic filtering or whatever to do that? 18:03:15 Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995 18:03:21 they use like a really long exposure and a moving lens :D 18:03:28 Vorpal: btw, mipmapping, to stop the ugly warping when playing on far: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/ <-- that is the light pic 18:03:32 Vorpal: that'll give you the same problems as anti-aliasing 18:03:33 oops 18:03:36 Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995 18:03:38 Even Descent 1 doesn't quite qualify "pre-1995", since it came out in 1995. (But it had some coloured lights, IIRC.) 18:03:38 see the screenshot there :P 18:03:58 tilt-shift 18:04:31 elliott, well sure. I doubt my CPU could handle it 18:04:34 my GPU maybe 18:04:40 Vorpal: err. it's likely to cause less load 18:04:47 Vorpal: all it does is use less pixels the further away the texture is 18:04:48 elliott, well mipmapping yes 18:04:52 elliott, I meant the other ones 18:04:54 ah. 18:05:25 elliott: causes it to use multitexturing though 18:05:27 and blending 18:05:33 which makes it again slower 18:05:43 using less pixels just lowers the necessary bandwidth 18:06:10 I have AGP 8x :P 18:06:17 i have EISA 18:06:19 elliott, also, there are now octopodes. 18:06:22 (well I doubt that will matter) 18:06:26 Phantom_Hoover: ... 18:06:37 Phantom_Hoover: So, um, what are the new tree types. 18:06:47 elliott, birch tree is one iirc 18:06:53 Knee-jerk "I don't like it" at this point. 18:07:00 The other is the Tree of Knowledge. 18:07:01 elliott, why is that 18:07:07 Birch and a single sighting of a conifer-shaped one in a snowy biome. 18:07:07 Dunno. 18:07:10 elliott, Phantom_Hoover said best update since halloween 18:07:11 Also, dyes. 18:07:16 "A bunch of new crafting recipes" Oh joy. 18:07:26 Vorpal, because it did something *other* than breaking everything. 18:07:40 Phantom_Hoover, who knows. Might have broken stuff. 18:07:49 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Bonemeal what 18:08:17 http://img689.imageshack.us/i/minecraftmip.png/ 18:08:20 this actually looks cool 18:08:27 now if they added per pixel lighting to the whole thing 18:08:45 and volumetric shadows 18:08:46 cheater00: Better Light does ambient occlusion. 18:09:09 Phantom_Hoover: Some Minepedia file-uploader seems to think the trees are aspens. (Which sounds rather unlikely.) 18:09:26 elliott: cool 18:09:26 cheater00, nah, go for FPGA-based real-time raytracing! 18:09:37 Vorpal: speaking of fpgas, i am slowly learning 18:09:46 elliott, this is all actually interesting. 18:09:46 Vorpal: soon, i'll be simulating neurons in fpga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. 18:09:54 cheater00, oh and? 18:10:05 lol. i doubt. 18:10:08 and then, i'll upload myself! 18:10:11 OK, so I need three buckets of milk and some wheat. 18:10:28 Phantom_Hoover, what is the cake good for? 18:10:34 For eating? 18:10:37 Phantom_Hoover, does it stack at least? 18:10:53 Cake is absolutely useless AFAIK, but I'm going to make some anyway. 18:10:53 Edible items don't tend to stack. 18:11:47 Phantom_Hoover: It does heal 1.5 hears "every use, and you can use it 6 times". 18:11:51 elliott, seems like paintings were fixed in SMP. So some good news. 18:11:53 According to Minepedia, anyway. 18:11:58 s/hears/hearts/ 18:12:08 yeah 18:12:40 I wonder if I should try and put optimine into that big hodge-podge of mods I'm installing. 18:12:45 It might, you know, make this actually feasible. 18:13:05 optimine? 18:13:34 Exactly what it says on the tin. 18:13:40 SPAWNIN' NEXT TO CLAY OH YEAH 18:14:27 I think "octopodes" is correct and "octopi" is incorrect. 18:15:21 yeah 18:15:25 zzo38: octopusses 18:15:42 j-invariant: I don't think so. 18:15:50 Wait what. 18:15:57 Monster spawners work in daylight, right? 18:15:58 it's from greek 18:16:04 Octononions. 18:16:09 -!- Oklopol has joined. 18:16:11 two of them are an octopair, three are an octet, five are an quintopus, seven are a septopode 18:16:15 Yes? 18:16:20 octopodes if you're pretentious, octopi if you're pretentious and clueless, and octopusses if you can't be bothered 18:16:21 fizzie: But octonions is different. 18:16:24 Oklopuses. 18:16:39 it's a mishmash of greek and latin 18:16:56 and old english 18:16:58 "Octopuses" is the most common plural, they say. 18:17:00 oklopol 18:17:04 LOL 18:17:04 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol. 18:17:07 Do monster spawners require a certain area around them? 18:17:36 oklopods. 18:18:02 I could quote the OED entry in whole, since I still have the tab open: "The plural form octopodes reflects the Greek plural; compare octopod n. The more frequent plural form octopi arises from apprehension of the final -us of the word as the grammatical ending of Latin second declension nouns; this apprehension is also reflected in compounds in octop-: see e.g. octopean adj., octopic adj., octopine adj., etc." 18:19:16 GUYS. MONSTER SPAWNERS 18:19:23 they work in daylight don't they 18:19:43 octopi = 25.132741... 18:19:48 hahaha! 18:19:56 For the pluralization tables of Plain TeXnicard, it will make "octopuses" which the reference which I took the data from, says is correct, but it also says "octopodes" is correct. I selected the Anglicise plurals to make the rule lists simpler. 18:20:08 elliott, not sure. 18:20:21 They don't work above a certain light level, do they? 18:20:29 they dont 18:20:32 *' 18:20:51 Though placing torches around the spawner or otherwise lighting the area will prevent monsters from spawning, the only sure way to prevent a Monster Spawner block from spawning monsters is to destroy it. 18:20:56 In rare cases where the dungeon is located near the surface, the player can remove the ceiling of the dungeon and expose the Monster Spawner and surrounding area to direct sunlight, preventing monster spawns during the day [1]. 18:20:57 great 18:21:00 ticking timebomb 18:21:03 i think i will destroy it 18:21:07 it's just skeletons 18:21:11 skeletons aren't very useful are the 18:21:12 y 18:21:20 Good source of bone. 18:21:25 And BONE MEALS. 18:21:29 The latest McMeal. 18:21:31 if you put stuff around it, probably it can't do much? 18:21:31 fuck that 18:21:35 oklopol: scared dammit scared 18:21:37 this is the first night 18:21:59 Meh meh meh I'm afraid of the walking dead oh woe is me durp durp 18:22:06 well just a few layers of dirt, takes just a couple seconds and you'll have your own monster spawner for later 18:22:17 :D 18:22:19 A-YUP 18:22:26 But hey, I have: 18:22:28 Clay 18:22:30 skeletons drop arrows 18:22:30 6 iron ingots (thanks chest) 18:22:32 String 18:22:34 Food of various sorts 18:22:34 of course 18:22:35 Saddles 18:22:39 And sulphur 18:22:46 So... woo, now fuck, it's gonna be nigth soon and I have no house 18:23:03 Phantom_Hoover: That birch tree is hideous. 18:23:23 elliott: by 6 iron ingots DO YOU MEAN 6 STACKS OR 6 BIG BOXES 18:23:29 I MEAN 6 18:23:45 lol i have like 10 boxes in my base..................... 18:23:48 you suck 18:24:01 also 18:24:04 by having played one night 18:24:13 do you mean having played one stack of nights or a big box of nights 18:24:27 :D 18:24:29 oklopol: Or bix box of night-blocks crafted out of 9 nights? 18:24:33 i mean this is the first day 18:24:38 ah 18:24:43 fizzie: hey what should i build my house out of, SAND? lololololol 18:25:09 elliott: Build it out of Lapis Lazuli, the "misterious Ore/Block added in Minecraft Beta 1.2 .The only known use is for make the Blue Dye" 18:25:16 elliott: you could craft some emos out of night blocks 18:25:17 (Punctuation as in the source.) 18:25:18 elliott: how would you be inside it? 18:25:19 Cool houses are built of pure obsidian. 18:25:25 and make them guard you 18:25:28 I just read "lapis lazuli" yesterday... Baader-Meinhof. 18:25:35 Gregor: The ICE HOUSE is the coolest house. 18:25:36 Gregor: Do you play MC, or do you just know things X-P 18:25:42 j-invariant: MAGIC 18:25:50 elliott: I'm talkin' REAL LIFE, bitch! 18:25:53 j-invariant: you can get under-beach caverns, touching one bit of the roof destroys it all :D 18:25:57 j-invariant: well, makes it all fall 18:26:11 w'w 18:26:22 wat 18:26:42 what? that was like the only reason to have finite height world 18:26:45 Hey 18:26:47 I am wondering 18:26:55 Did anyone ever do a computer in minecraft? 18:26:58 that sand can be realistic without the coder having a brain 18:27:01 Since it seems to have logical gates 18:27:11 Slereah: yes, even i know that 18:27:19 so what should i do with my 6 iron ingots 18:27:23 Got a link? 18:27:29 elliott : Bukkits 18:27:32 elliott: wait till you have more, iron blocks are sexy 18:27:45 Slereah: google minecraft cpu 18:27:51 oklopol: not like, armour? :P 18:27:55 Maybe the iron block house. 18:27:57 elliott: nope! 18:29:38 thx 18:29:57 elliott: So that DOF shader, does it "focus" on the distance the crosshair is on? 18:29:57 Armors wore off, elliott 18:30:03 But bukkits are forever 18:30:07 Or until you die in lava 18:30:17 Slereah: Or until you use the bukkit as furnace fuel. 18:30:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:30:19 fizzie: Yes. 18:30:24 Why would you do thaty 18:30:28 fizzie: The screenshot is from a modified version later in the thread. 18:30:30 When you have infinite wood 18:30:37 it's getting dark, and my house isn't even vaguely done :( 18:30:40 just the first layer 18:30:41 it's in the sea, but 18:30:43 i am going to die 18:30:48 and lose all my amazing first-day possessions 18:31:19 If it's just first day, it doesn't matter much 18:31:46 Slereah: I have a ton of clay, 6 iron ingots, a decent bit of wheat, bread, two saddles, 8 string, and wood. 18:31:59 That is a good first day 18:32:04 elliott, hello. 18:32:06 dungeon' 18:32:08 That is a good first day that makes me NOT WANT TO DIE 18:32:09 I'm lucky if I find coal 18:32:15 oklopol: yes, but I got the clay and wood from spawn 18:32:24 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:25 elliott, wait, why are you building in the sea? 18:32:36 He is Spongebob Squarepants 18:32:39 wanted to 18:32:41 fuck it 18:32:43 my first house will be a tower 18:33:45 time to craft all night 18:33:48 seriously though 18:33:53 should i make a pick, sword, armour, or what with my ingots 18:33:54 Also 18:33:56 mine 18:34:03 Slereah: on top of a tower? 18:34:08 No 18:34:11 Inside! 18:34:14 I made a tower 18:34:16 i built the tower. 18:34:18 out of clay. 18:34:19 it is 1x1. 18:34:20 It is actually 18:34:24 i cannot actually mine :P 18:34:30 tell me what to do with my ingots 18:34:30 That is not really a tower 18:34:31 Vorpal 18:34:40 Slereah: keeps me away from creepers 18:34:41 i told you already 18:34:41 Well 18:34:45 do nothing 18:34:48 elliott, ? 18:34:50 hope they don't blow up my fucking clay :D 18:34:54 Vorpal: first night, i have 6 iron ingots 18:34:59 Vorpal: what should i do with them 18:35:05 Picks go away pretty quickly 18:35:08 44 wood 18:35:09 elliott, switch to peaceful 18:35:12 So usually stone is better for that 18:35:12 yeah pick isn't worth it 18:35:13 Vorpal: no. 18:35:21 Slereah: i have no stone tonight :D 18:35:23 elliott, whatever you feel is best then 18:35:26 Armor might help, but I ouldn't do it on the first day 18:35:33 elliott: Craft: iron HOE + iron SHOVEL. 18:35:36 elliott : Wood pick, mine some stone, make stone pick 18:35:38 The most important tools evar. 18:35:40 fizzie: USEFUL 18:35:45 elliott, probably sword then armor? 18:35:46 Slereah: CAN'T MINE STONE ON THE FIRST NIGHT 18:35:48 I'M ON TOP OF A TOWER 18:35:59 fizzie: shovel is much more useful than axe imo 18:36:04 sword is top priority, but is an iron sword worth it? 18:36:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:36:09 and axe uses much more 18:36:25 Vorpal: can't really do armour AND anything else 18:36:30 boots would leave me with only 2 iron! 18:36:31 elliott: Wait, no, no, wait: six, you say? You can make a minecart! (And then one shovel.) 18:36:35 elliott: yes, the enemies will be too afraid to come close 18:36:39 fizzie: OH MAN. 18:36:43 elliott : Wait for morning 18:36:51 Slereah: there will be lots of monsters below 18:36:56 I need to be equipped to fight them 18:37:01 a stone sword doesn't sound "equipped" to me 18:37:03 erm 18:37:04 not even stone 18:37:04 wood 18:37:08 Well, I guess sword then 18:37:10 Or armor 18:37:16 Or FLEE 18:37:21 as i said, i could only make one piece of armour 18:37:27 Slereah: What's the recipe for an iron flee? 18:37:27 also, hard to flee when i'm dismantling my house 18:37:41 Don't dismantle it 18:37:49 If it's one block tall, just walk 18:38:04 Slereah: It is not ... 18:38:06 You could also make 16 minecart tracks and make a rectangular loop, then repeatedly run it. 18:38:11 Slereah: It is about 40 blocks of clay tall. 18:38:18 That's a lot of clay 18:38:25 PRECISELY 18:38:27 Are you far from your spawn point? 18:38:42 Because, you could 18:38:46 Jump from it 18:38:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:38:50 Locate it because it is tall 18:38:55 And get your stuff back 18:39:00 I would jump into nice, relaxing, non-dying sea. 18:39:06 Also, I suppose I could. 18:39:26 It's not really a game for fighting monster, really 18:39:29 Nonetheless: what do I do with my 6 iron that will help me best on the first night? I'm leaning t'words sword at this point. 18:39:31 especially on the first night D: 18:39:34 Iron sword should kill off enemies pretty quickly. 18:39:41 True, but 18:39:42 Creepers 18:39:47 Creepers will fuck you up 18:39:51 Just whack 'em with the sword. Duh. 18:39:58 Slereah: Eh, if you have full armour and a good sword you can stay outside all night. 18:40:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:40:54 "void main() is not legal in C++ but is legal in C." Whoa. 18:41:05 Which prolly won't happen at night 18:41:09 I mean 18:41:11 First night 18:41:28 I'm lucky if I can find coal on the first night 18:42:23 Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: fizzie: Behold, the PERMA-LITE: http://i.imgur.com/Jghek.png 18:42:36 what's happening?? 18:42:43 j-invariant: Bugs! 18:43:39 Hey, MC has added lapis lazuli. 18:43:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:44:07 It does essentially nothing, other than dying things blue. 18:44:31 -!- Oklopol has joined. 18:44:56 Yeah 18:44:59 So you can 18:45:06 Make a colorful fortress of doom 18:45:12 Delightful wallpaper 18:45:22 Oh, I also have cactus. 18:45:28 Phantom_Hoover: so now you can have your bluestone? *ducks* 18:45:31 Cactus are useless, though 18:45:52 They can actually be useful in mob traps. 18:45:56 Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: fizzie: Behold, the PERMA-LITE: http://i.imgur.com/Jghek.png <-- what 18:46:03 Just accidentally made an iron pickaxe :P 18:46:25 Well, it will be useful if you encounter some redstone or diamond 18:46:28 Which you WON'T 18:46:36 Vorpal: Notch can't code. 18:46:55 Is that why everything is made of 18:46:57 one polygon 18:47:20 Hey, sandstone has been added! 18:47:34 I can make a house in the style of Edinburgh's New Town! 18:48:14 Pickaxe, sword, and axe. Guess I'm set for day. 18:48:18 Phantom_Hoover: Is it craftable from sand and stone? 18:48:32 No, just four sand. 18:48:41 oh no he will add lanterns further on 18:48:44 what sandstone do 18:49:04 Creeper circling my precious clay house. 18:49:06 Vorpal: Ha ha ha. 18:49:16 elliott, well I'm sure we can get a kit :P 18:49:29 Yeaaaaah, that doesn't help SSP. 18:49:40 "Lanterns are planned crafted objects which were originally planned to be introduced in the Halloween Update. This feature was delayed because of the lack of time and will be implemented in a future update." 18:49:41 elliott, true but I have large stocks there 18:49:46 It's easier than fucking music blocks, Notch. 18:50:02 elliott, less nice than those though 18:50:13 elliott, so what is the new useful block? 18:50:18 Music blocks? Do you bounce off of them? 18:50:22 erm, what is special about a lantern? 18:50:25 Gregor: You PLAY them! 18:50:27 Oklopol: torches will go out 18:50:29 couldn't he just copy paste the code from torches? 18:50:31 and need flintn'steel to relight 18:50:32 oh 18:50:32 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol. 18:50:33 right 18:50:34 yes 18:50:35 he could 18:50:36 but he's a mron 18:50:38 i mean a moorn 18:50:41 i mean a mrornr 18:50:43 obviously there is no reuse of any line of code 18:50:47 elliott: Mario is shaking his head in shame. 18:50:58 oklopol: he writes the 3d rendering code for each block individually! 18:50:58 but it should still be trivial to add lanterns... 18:51:21 yeah, then makes texture files by taking screenshots so that it looks like he's not a retard 18:51:54 oklopol: Yes, but y'see, maybe he was worried about there not being enough time to playtest it for balance problems. 18:53:01 :D 18:53:02 It *is* a pretty big change to the game dynamics. 18:53:03 'cuz he does that 18:53:04 all the time 18:53:13 I mean, mining becomes quite a bit harder. 18:53:51 and more funnnnn 18:53:52 ais is not here :( 18:54:34 Phantom_Hoover: Didn't he roll back the "non-monster-spawn light level depends on depth" thing real fast because of difficulty issues. 18:54:40 Yes. 18:54:48 And torches going out is that times ten. 18:54:58 It's a really stupid idea. 18:55:05 it's a great idea 18:55:13 It only makes sense as part of the Bluestone proposal, where you could power a torch indefinitely with a generator anyway. 18:55:21 Assuming you get enough bulk fuel, which shouldn't be too difficult. 18:55:28 It makes secure mines impossible until you can make a nether portal, which requires vast amounts of mining in the first place. 18:55:30 You can just throw coal in to keep everything you use going. 18:55:36 well obviously the game needs either bots or a huge amount of players 18:55:41 so you can use them as bots 18:56:03 oklopol: make smp bots, the protocol isn't that hard :) 18:56:30 i wanna make my bots in-game 18:57:03 Vorpal: please tell those guys at Umeå universitet to stop using their internet connection, i'm downloading ubuntu packages 18:57:11 elliott, ..? 18:57:17 Vorpal: they host my ubuntu mirror 18:57:22 elliott, yes and? 18:57:23 go tell them off for hogging the pipe 18:57:25 it's slower than usual 18:57:32 you're in sweden, shouldn't be hard to get there 18:57:55 elliott, you realise the distance to there from here is longer than from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland? 18:58:25 UK is tiny 18:58:27 Vorpal: you want me to go tell Phantom_Hoover off? i can do that, sure 18:58:28 in return 18:58:33 elliott, no 18:58:38 well 18:58:39 The distance from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland is pathetic :P 18:58:44 Gregor, indeed! 18:58:45 Vorpal: why not 18:58:50 Gregor: your face is pathetic 18:58:56 elliott, what do you think would happen 18:59:18 The distance from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland is pathetic :P ← and elliott is talking about north England to south Scotland. 18:59:26 Shut up. 18:59:38 Phantom_Hoover, :) 19:00:34 What is it, like 700 miles? Less? 19:00:34 `calc 700 miles in km 19:00:35 (I forget if that still works) 19:01:01 In my country, blah blah blah it's bigger is the point. 19:01:02 Gregor: Google Maps Labs has added a distance measurement tool now. 19:01:22 fizzie: Schweet 19:01:41 It can even measure the length of a polyline if you like. 19:01:44 Gregor: I realise you're compensating for your lack of size in other areas. It's okay. 19:02:05 (And report results in Ångströms or light-years.) 19:02:40 In my country, you can drive 1,000 miles and see no appreciable change in dialect, accent, religion or ethnicity! 19:02:40 Also, you can drive 2,000 miles to the same effect :P 19:02:42 fizzie, what about parsec? 19:02:56 Vorpal: That, too. And TeX points. 19:02:59 Gregor, not on the east coast I bet 19:03:04 elliott: Any lack of size there could only have been inherited from the UK, but at least we have our teeth :P 19:03:26 fizzie, how amusing 19:03:37 Vorpal: Less so on the east coast, but the east coast is still WAY more homogenous than anywhere in Europe. 19:03:49 Gregor: In my country, you can drive a million miles with no change. (Admittedly you need to be driving in a small circle.) 19:03:58 fizzie, :D 19:04:49 Oh yeah, well in my country you can drive a parsec with no change (in a rather large circle) 19:06:04 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Dispenser <-- oh they can fire arrows, nice 19:06:17 Well in my country you can drive infinity plus 999 miles! 19:06:49 in my country you can drive an uncountable infinity distance 19:07:18 not only in a circle. But also in a square with rounded corners! 19:07:28 What is that for. 19:07:42 Vorpal, OK, that is officially the best thing to happen to MC since sliced bread. 19:08:00 MC has sliced bread? 19:08:08 Phantom_Hoover, yeah mods have been able to do this for ages 19:08:28 Vorpal, yes, but still. 19:08:46 Also, did they do it in a non-hacky way? 19:09:01 Phantom_Hoover, well for server mods that would be hard 19:09:16 Phantom_Hoover, craftbook had an IC to do it 19:09:20 Phantom_Hoover, also an arrow barge one 19:09:23 which is cooler 19:09:28 (5 at once) 19:09:48 No output. 19:09:57 ... 19:09:59 what 19:10:07 oh that above 19:10:08 `calc 700 miles in km 19:10:19 HackEgo, not impressed. 19:11:42 I think I'm looking into Atomo again 19:12:31 `echo It's not slowness, it's unimplementedness :P 19:12:33 It's not slowness, it's unimplementedness :P 19:12:43 fizzie, working on making mcmap work with this new one? 19:13:06 `url bin/calc 19:13:07 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/calc 19:13:21 Sgeo, what was that RNA thing you mentioned? 19:13:26 Vorpal: Not at the moment; do you have some local server you'd like to run it against? 19:14:06 Hold on, let me check 19:14:26 EteRNA\ 19:14:31 fizzie, my local server runs hmod and movecraft, so not very 19:15:15 http://eterna.cmu.edu 19:15:22 Right. The protocol docs seemed updated already, but I'll probably patch mcmap when there are some uses for it. 19:15:24 fizzie, collecting flowers on ineiros's server atm 19:16:07 It'll be a backwards-incompatible change anyway; I don't really feel like supporting multiple protocol versions, since Notch doesn't bother anyway. 19:16:20 Are flowers a renewable resource? I guess not. 19:17:58 fizzie, not afaik 19:18:40 Phantom_Hoover, ^ 19:19:03 Deewiant: Going to update the WooW flora room "reed" sign, now that they're sugar instead? 19:19:20 Might as well be quaint 19:19:59 fizzie, do they still grow next to water 19:20:04 if so it sounds like reed 19:20:19 I don't think the semantics have been changed. 19:22:28 "Like the real plant, sugar cane must be planted on a grass/dirt block immediately adjacent to water, --" 19:22:56 X-D 19:32:01 god damn it 19:32:06 I still haven't found my sugar cane 19:32:20 I came across some so I trimmed it and replanted then lost it :| 19:32:26 was that poetry 19:32:40 "god damn it 19:32:43 I still haven't found my sugar cane 19:32:50 I came across some so I trimmed it and replanted then lost it" 19:32:59 yep 19:33:01 "god damn it / I still haven't found my sugar cane", by J. Invariant. 19:33:07 :D 19:33:18 i found it pretty deep 19:33:25 j-invariant, hey, wait till you try to find some eggs. 19:33:26 imagine it being read in a serious voice by a 60-year-old poet 19:33:32 you forgot the face at the end 19:33:39 that is part of the poem 19:33:39 quintopia: too low-brow 19:33:52 Or, indeed, wheat. 19:41:52 elliott: needs a blues melody i think 19:43:39 god damn it i still haven't found nananeenernanun 19:43:57 my sugar can cane i came across some nananeenernanun 19:44:29 so i trimmed it and replanted nananeenernanun 19:44:44 then lost it colon pipe nananeenernanun 19:45:14 sometimes i feel, lord 19:45:17 like i been 19:45:25 tiiiiiiiied to the whippin post 19:45:32 shantih shantih shantih 19:46:04 * quintopia bows 19:49:45 ... 19:50:20 i was expecting some snapping... 19:50:33 "colon pipe" 19:50:41 well it surely _looked_ as if quintopia had snapped *ducks* 19:50:44 :D 19:51:13 I have a pipe in my colon 19:51:15 gregor: ce n'est pas une colon pipe 19:51:23 *ceci 19:51:32 yeah that 19:51:36 ceci nest p'as none colon pipe une 19:51:40 *p'as nest 19:51:41 * quintopia doesn't francais 19:51:44 *cesi 19:52:04 cesium is no colon pipe 19:52:55 seize my colon pipe 19:53:09 ...i think that may be illegal 19:53:20 :D 19:53:37 go go gadget chaotic neutral 19:53:46 Go go gadget colon pipe? 19:54:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | I'll suck up ALL your fleep, baby! Right through the colon pipe. | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/. 19:54:26 no not the gadget skates! whooooaoaoaOOOOOAAAA 19:55:03 Gregor: do we _really_ want to scare away the newbies before getting them addicted? 19:55:13 yus 19:55:13 yes 19:55:22 IF YOU SAY SO 19:55:25 oerjan: HEY, don't make me reintroduce your colon pipe. 19:55:31 i'm currently optimising my procedure, i think i can filter out the worthy ones even quicker than i did with the xkcd guys 19:55:39 basically i start by killing their family 19:55:41 and eating their children 19:55:44 and then i yell in their ear for 24 hours 19:55:54 oerjan: My piping is 2" PVC now. 19:55:55 those that then create seventy languages of oklopol-level pure beauty then go onto the next stage 19:55:57 which is secret 19:55:58 NO! NOT YELLING IN THE EAR! 19:56:06 that's just plain _cruel_ 19:56:07 oerjan: YELLING INSULTS NO LESS 19:56:15 yeah they usually beg me to just like 19:56:18 kill their grandparents too 19:56:51 but not grandchildren 19:57:05 at least not until they release another album 19:57:37 oerjan: My piping is 2" PVC now. <-- play music on it 19:57:52 ... THAT IS SICK. 19:58:11 * elliott plays music on his colon pipe 19:58:11 it's Vorpal what do you expect 19:58:24 someone seize it before it explodes with music 19:58:27 oerjan, wait, I thought you would expect that from Gregor 19:58:39 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:59:11 Vorpal: i'm pretty sure we've discussed PVC instruments on this channel before 19:59:21 oerjan, indeed 19:59:39 OK, done with the colon pipe discussion then :P 19:59:40 oerjan, they are quite interesting 19:59:42 http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/ 19:59:55 elliott, any colon pipe there? 19:59:57 I do want to make a PVC xylovibraglockenphone. 20:00:09 geez you are all obsessed with my colon pipe 20:00:22 elliott, :P 20:00:38 Gregor, what exactly is a xylovibraglockenphone 20:00:43 Gregor, any photo of one? 20:00:58 it's obvious 20:01:11 Vorpal: I'm referring of course to the family of instruments including the xylophone, vibraphone, marimba and glockenspiel. 20:01:13 Gregor, http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/ <-- link dead, goes to geocities 20:01:20 Gregor, you might want to update that link 20:01:21 -!- j-invariant has joined. 20:01:43 Hahahfail. 20:01:44 Gregor, also images on http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/baritonetrombute.php broken 20:01:44 it's a cross between and vibraphone a glockenspiel and a xylophone and a drumbone for good measure 20:01:52 Gregor, and that is your local stuff 20:02:00 http://codu.org/pics/displayimage.php?album=33&pos=3 <-- 404 20:02:02 Vorpal: That I'm aware of and haven't bothered to fix :P 20:02:15 Gregor, aww :/ 20:02:19 Gregor, how does it look then? 20:02:26 * quintopia looks forward to the next blue man gregor concert 20:02:46 Vorpal: I didn't even put instructions on my PVC trombone there :P 20:03:04 * oerjan finds a reference to "ass pipe" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_Virgin_Islands 20:03:18 Gregor, pvc pan flute 20:03:27 Too easy. 20:03:32 Gregor, hm true 20:04:13 PVC saxophone? (I haven't been following the context.) 20:04:16 elliott, so how is the new minecraft version? 20:04:25 Vorpal: I haven't really played, but it seems stable enough. 20:04:31 fizzie: I'm not sure how to make a single reed, and valves are borderline impossible. 20:04:39 Trombaxophone, maybe. 20:04:55 elliott, downside is of course that you can't play on current server atm unless you use alternative launcher 20:05:37 bbl 20:12:19 "trombaxophone" has only one result on Google D-8 20:12:21 UNACCEPTABLE 20:16:02 *Ahahahah*. 20:16:16 Among other things, Sony submitted *the actual keys* in court documents. 20:16:32 .... 20:16:33 wtf? 20:16:35 srsly? 20:16:35 Meaning that the "circumvention device" they seek to prevent the distribution of is a matter of public record. 20:16:42 Seriously. 20:17:48 Sort of like those scenes in movies where somebody knows they're being watched by the good guys and says "Boy I sure hope they don't find the key under the mat that goes to the back window, since there are no sentries posted to the left of that window!" 20:18:40 That is the best thing ever. 20:19:58 Surely they didn't do something that barefacedly stupid. 20:20:10 pikhq: in that series of screenshots? 20:20:12 or where? 20:20:21 copumpkin: In that gigantic pile of screenshots. 20:20:42 Page... 247 of court document 4. 20:20:46 ah 20:21:26 Phantom_Hoover: Remember that the keys were already released because Sony doesn't know the meaning of "random". 20:22:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:22:06 pikhq: It was random, it just had a very small range. 20:22:14 Gregor: no 20:22:17 Namely, a single value. 20:22:27 copumpkin: HALLO MR I-DUNT-GET-JOKES 20:22:30 lol 20:22:43 Though even if it were random *with a known bias*, the keys would still be vulnerable. 20:22:44 pikhq, indeed, but there's failing to be cryptographically secure due to skimming the textbook and there's publishing them on a document you *know* is going to be public. 20:22:54 Where's the pile of screenshots? 20:22:55 (this was the issue with the whole Debian OpenSSL thing) 20:23:52 http://www.thesangreal.net/gaf/sony.zip Well, this zip has all the stuff submitted by SCEA so far. 20:24:03 The pile of screenshots is in 04.pdf 20:24:20 It's absurdly huge. 20:24:33 282 screenshots. 20:24:59 No, I mean the zip. 20:25:03 Yes. 20:25:34 Christ on a pogo stick, wheat takes ages to grow in MC. 20:25:50 Phantom_Hoover, it always done? 20:26:11 Phantom_Hoover: As opposed to real life, where you pretty much drop it in the ground, go get coffee, then make bread. 20:26:14 Vorpal, yes, but I never needed it soon. 20:26:25 Phantom_Hoover, it takes ages to grow in real life too. The issue is that trees grow unrealistically fast in mc. 20:26:29 so does wheat 20:26:31 Gregor, and where you can break solid stone with your bare hands. 20:26:34 you need months in real life 20:26:42 Phantom_Hoover, that is some nice karate! 20:27:02 Phantom_Hoover: You can if you're not some kind of PUSSY. 20:27:24 Phantom_Hoover: (And also it's sandstone) 20:27:32 Gregor, naw, they added that/ 20:27:37 Gregor, what is sandstone? 20:27:39 It's different from normal stone. 20:27:51 Vorpal, ...a soft kind of stone? 20:27:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:28:05 Phantom_Hoover, I meant, chemically 20:28:12 Vorpal: It's a rock made of lightly-cemented sand. 20:28:12 Phantom_Hoover, I know what sandstone looks like 20:28:19 Chemically, it's a load of sand smushed together. 20:28:19 Gregor, cemented how? 20:28:24 Vorpal, smushing. 20:28:37 Phantom_Hoover, I'm not familiar with that jargon *googles it* 20:28:39 Gregor, even sandstone isn't that weak. 20:29:00 Trust me, I live in a city where the primary building material is sandstone. 20:29:20 Phantom_Hoover: Then if you can't smash through your buildings, then I guess you're just some kind of PUSSY. 20:29:41 If you could punch apart houses in less than a day, there wouldn't be a house standing. 20:30:00 wrecking balls in the next update? 20:30:09 Rabid house-punching squads are destroying New York! D-8 20:31:02 I like all the ads in the documents 20:31:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:31:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:31:44 Phantom_Hoover, what can't you smash even sandstone!? 20:31:48 You'd have thought they'd have gone over the keys with a marker pen or something. 20:32:23 Vorpal, can you‽ 20:32:41 Phantom_Hoover, never tried. I'd assume so 20:32:52 X-D 20:33:05 I hope Vorpal goes and smashes Edinburgh now. 20:33:28 elliott, a bit too far to travel 20:33:52 "Insane Swedish man found punching houses, trees." 20:34:06 Phantom_Hoover, :D 20:34:12 Subtitle if it's published in the Evening News: "Believed to be tram contractor." 20:34:21 Phantom_Hoover, what? 20:34:27 I don't get that 20:35:00 Vorpal, the Evening News is the local rag, which views the council and the tram system which is being built in a similar light to that in which paedophiles are viewed by lesser tabloids. 20:35:21 Phantom_Hoover, haha 20:35:28 Phantom_Hoover, why do they hate the tram? 20:35:48 Because the council did it and it's not exactly been done with the greatest of competence. 20:35:54 Roadworks etc. 20:36:06 Phantom_Hoover, why do they hate the council? 20:36:13 I have no idea. 20:36:18 They just *do*. 20:36:50 http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Tram-talks-off-till-March.6689138.jp 20:36:56 Read comments for amusement/despair. 20:36:58 I would love to live in a city where trams are treated like paedophiles. 20:36:58 Because the council is the government. 20:37:00 Therefore evil. 20:37:04 It just sounds ... amazing. 20:37:10 "Trams: Is YOUR child next?" 20:37:27 @hoogle (a -> IO b) -> IO a -> IO b 20:37:28 Control.Exception bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c 20:37:28 Control.OldException bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c 20:37:28 Control.Exception bracketOnError :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c 20:37:29 *picture of young child riding a tram, onlookers stare in horror* 20:37:45 *picture of young child riding a paedohpile, onlookers stare in horror* 20:37:47 *paedophile 20:38:04 PEDOPILE 20:38:06 Isn't that type signature just flip (>>=)?? 20:38:12 s/??/?/ 20:38:34 Gregor, if you spell paedophile without an 'a' you are obviously a paedo. 20:38:59 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but at least I'm an AMERICAN (not some filthy Amrican) 20:39:57 elliott: Re optimine, intriguingly "The FasterRender mod by @Scaevolus is included in beta 1.2, please let us know if it helps! And send him your regards". 20:40:12 fizzie: Right. Isn't that the SSP-only one, though? 20:40:20 Ppperhaps. 20:40:20 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's =<<. 20:40:21 elliott: (=<<) ? 20:40:23 But =<< is SO UGLY. 20:40:27 I already forgot what the different bits did. 20:41:13 http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/new_zodiac_sign_dates_dont_swi.html 20:41:43 I love the way that article is written as if the Earth's axis has suddenly swivelled 30° overnight and astronomers have just noticed. 20:42:22 And then the way that the astrologers try to justify it and they take it completely seriously. 20:42:29 http://people.cs.uu.nl/andres/lhs2tex/Guide2-1.16.pdf Oh wow, this is complicated. 20:43:07 hey j-invariant, have you used lhs2tex 20:43:12 say yes :P 20:44:42 I find it slightly revolting when the advice for students writing lab reports is to use Word. 20:46:02 Gleh. 20:46:29 87.5% of our students use LaTeX for their reports. (Sample size: N=8.) 20:46:29 SCEA has *also* filed a description of how to go *about* deriving the private keys. 20:46:48 Phantom_Hoover, hey they added charcoal! 20:46:52 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Charcoal 20:46:53 In essence, they themselves have made the entire thing a matter of public record. 20:46:57 Bravo! 20:47:00 Vorpal, I just noticed that. 20:47:01 Phantom_Hoover: the astrological signs start their division at the spring equinox (the actual modern one). the fact that the divisions are named after >= 2000 year old constellation placements is just tradition. this particular detail isn't really one of the arguments against astrology. 20:47:06 elliott, you might find this useful 20:47:13 oerjan, yes, I know. 20:47:31 Well. It's a fairly short description, but one that any knowledgable cryptographer would be able to work with. 20:47:51 "They didn't use random numbers in their ECDSA implementation." ← Sufficient! 20:48:19 Phantom_Hoover, elliott, from version history: "Spiders can climb up walls." 20:48:21 be scared 20:48:23 be VERY scared 20:48:40 I thought they'd always been able to do that. 20:48:50 Can they climb up 1x1 pillars? 20:48:54 Phantom_Hoover, no they could jump high however 20:48:56 Phantom_Hoover, no clue 20:49:11 But yes, that is a botherance. 20:49:30 Ooh, wood and stone tools got a boost. 20:49:43 Phantom_Hoover, they did? 20:49:51 Clearly this is just a lull before Notch brings out the big difficulty hikes. 20:54:11 -!- cheater- has joined. 20:54:16 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:59:16 Vorpal: Charcoal also obviously means light sources (well, until lantern-time) for your sustainability project. (Though I'm not sure how you get a furnace, since even though cobble is sort-of renewable, I'm not sure how you'd do a cobble factory without a bucket to move lava.) 20:59:55 Lava is non-renewable now. 21:00:18 That, too. 21:00:31 fizzie, I already have one from when lava was renewable from spawn 21:00:42 and now it is an artifact which can be used 21:00:50 or something 21:00:55 Well, but if you'd like to start from scratch somewhere elsewhere, then it's a problemo. 21:01:03 fizzie, indeed it is 21:02:14 Maybe you could manage to build a cobble factory around an existing lava fall (unless you'd count that despoiling nature, too), but still a bucket seems essential for moving water around. 21:02:33 fizzie, I seen natural cobble factories 21:02:37 hard to use though 21:02:40 -!- acetoline has joined. 21:04:12 SPIDERS UP WALLS WHAT WHY 21:04:13 WHYW 21:04:14 WYHWYH 21:04:14 HWHY 21:04:15 WHY 21:04:20 WHYWYHOIERYDRLTKJFGH,IOJKLD;SA'SC.F,GNMHLG;KJFD;SPOACLV,XCMVNBL,FGKTRPOEI45039ROKIO908I94586U859RTUYIR9TUJWHY 21:04:30 elliott, did they climb up 1x1 pillars? 21:05:26 Can they climb over fences 21:05:32 Oh, what a shame: the wiki "Crafting" page recipe images are actual screenshots (cropped any which way and sometimes stretched strangely and whatnot); I was somehow assuming they'd be some clever table-driven things, like Wikipedia's chessboards. 21:10:36 fizzie, ...that is how it works. 21:11:13 Well, some of them. 21:12:06 Right, I was sure that's how it worked. 21:12:16 The new "dye recipes" seem to be all more or less ugly screenshots. 21:13:09 go fix them? 21:13:39 night → 21:15:16 j-invariant: DO YOU WANT TO READ MY PROGRAM 21:15:23 what is it 21:15:30 j-invariant: the worst program 21:15:32 okay 21:16:10 useful examples of mutually recursive functions? 21:16:35 j-invariant: is there a shortage of those? 21:16:38 When you run it your cat dies. 21:17:05 :t scanl 21:17:06 forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a] 21:18:44 elliott: I cna't think of any 21:18:46 elliott: can you 21:18:51 j-invariant: even and odd, for instance! 21:18:53 j-invariant: :D 21:19:15 the only thing that cmoes to mind for me is EVAL/APPLY and some proofs, well they don't really count though 21:19:16 j-invariant: if you only have induction-recursion on naturals, and you can memoise them, it's even the fastest way! 21:19:24 eval/apply is pretty relevant 21:19:30 all interpreter-esque things are structured that way 21:19:31 The Hofstadter functions? 21:19:35 more or less 21:19:38 *sequences 21:20:00 The female and male ones, specifically. 21:22:37 j-invariant: here's my ugly program: http://sites.google.com/site/ehirdfiles/files/guessing-game.pdf 21:23:00 j-invariant: state machines work nicely as mutually recursive functions 21:23:01 ooh 21:23:02 i can simplify i 21:23:03 t 21:23:49 elliott: at least you use lhs2tex 21:24:02 j-invariant: that's the sole reason this program exists :P 21:24:09 :D 21:24:20 j-invariant: complaints so far: <=, =>, && look ugly, they're too big... also, it italicises EVERY DAMN NAME, which is just really freakin' annoying 21:24:27 it should, like, only use it for local variables 21:24:47 j-invariant: re: is there something like pastebin for pdfs, as i've just found out, "yes" pretty much 21:24:55 j-invariant: go to google sites, create a site, create a page, make it a file cabinet 21:24:55 elliott: google? 21:25:01 voila, instant file host 21:25:14 j-invariant: new version: http://sites.google.com/site/ehirdfiles/files/guessing-game.pdf 21:25:17 getGuess is less ugly now :P 21:25:22 j-invariant: oh, extra complaint about lhstotex: you can't do 21:25:24 do foo 21:25:25 bar 21:25:27 because it renders it as 21:25:29 do foo 21:25:29 bar 21:25:32 e.g. 21:25:40 foo = do blah 21:25:43 blah2 21:25:47 comes out as 21:25:49 foo = do blah 21:25:50 blah2 21:25:59 that's stupid 21:26:03 elliott: that's a bug 21:26:11 probabl 21:26:12 y 21:26:24 extra complaint: it doesn't put enough whitespace between two successive functions in a \begin{code} block 21:26:58 j-invariant: i wish there was a variant of literate programming that utilised hypertext better 21:27:07 j-invariant: like, i don't really care so much about having a coherent linear order 21:27:16 j-invariant: but i want to interleave code and documentation fully, and also have links 21:27:25 like, i could link to the whole chapter comprising, say, the parser of a language 21:27:35 and individual functions would link to the place where they are discussed inside that chapter 21:27:36 etc. 21:27:52 you could even do a whole OS as a single literate program, because there wouldn't be a strict linear order, it'd be hyperlinked 21:28:18 elliott: yeah that would be a big improvement 21:28:50 j-invariant: and then I could make @ one gigantic literate program with both x86-64 asm and @lang code :D 21:28:57 (@ is my platonic ideal dream OS) 21:29:04 (@lang is the language it's based on) 21:31:06 *Aaaaagh*. 21:31:21 pikhq does not approve of @/ 21:31:21 i love ams euler, it goes so well with linux libertine 21:31:28 s|/|| 21:31:29 Most of the BS-X games will only run for a certain number of boots before locking themselves out forever and ever. 21:31:43 Making it *even more impossible* to actually emulate the damned thing. 21:31:52 :D 21:31:55 elliott, including the poorly-batched square brackets? 21:32:06 Phantom_Hoover: Is there something wrong with Euler's []s? 21:32:20 Short a bunch of former Nintendo developers "misplacing" a bunch of ROMs on the Internet. 21:32:21 There's something wrong with Libertine's. 21:32:34 Phantom_Hoover: There is? 21:32:38 (which *has* happened for some of them.) 21:32:57 The closing one is noticeably narrower and longer than the opening one. 21:33:02 Phantom_Hoover: If you just mean "they're not flippings of each other", well, it's olde-style. 21:33:26 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:33:34 Yes, but the way it's done is sloppy-looking. 21:33:45 Who uses square brackets anyway. 21:35:23 To mark elisions? 21:35:31 To make nested brackets less confusing? 21:35:45 Phantom_Hoover: Loser. 21:35:57 I don't do it! 21:36:02 But some people do! 21:36:33 And whenever we have code snippets in the channel and they contain square brackets it also looks bad! 21:36:35 j-invariant: PLAY MY AMAZING GUESSING GAME :d 21:36:37 *:D 21:36:45 [] 21:36:47 [][][][] 21:36:49 [[[]]] 21:37:30 j-invariant: here's the .hs file :P http://sprunge.us/hRLa 21:40:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:40:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 21:40:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:40:53 while () { /* valid K&R C */ } 21:42:35 j-invariant: do you have any opinions on serialisation of arbitrary GADT values 21:42:36 if not, get some 21:42:50 im not that interested in serliazation 21:43:08 j-invariant: but @ is based on serialisation! 21:43:17 in what way? 21:43:18 j-invariant: every value in the system is regularly and completely transparently serialised to disk 21:43:26 j-invariant: "RAM" is now a fancy word for "big disk cache" 21:43:33 = orthogonal persistence 21:43:36 (This is so awesome that words cannot express it.) 21:43:45 Phantom_Hoover: yes, you just keep saying how @ is awesome while i explain ti 21:43:46 EVERYTHING becomes vastly nicer. 21:43:48 i appreciate 21:43:50 the effort 21:43:50 *it 21:43:52 Oi! 21:44:16 what 21:44:35 Incidentally, LaTeX in @: cool as ? 21:44:47 Psht, I'm writing my _own_ format. 21:44:57 More semantic! 21:45:10 LaTeX is based on the CRIPPLED MOUND OF PRINT LAYOUT. 21:45:44 I thought LaTeX was one of the few things you liked a lot! 21:45:49 I do! 21:45:51 But it is not IDEAL. 21:46:22 How about: implement a nice, clean typesetting system, and implement LaTeX on top of it? 21:47:17 Phantom_Hoover: Impossible; my system will be a semantic documentation system, not a typesetting system. 21:47:40 The "LaTeX" part will be a program that takes some documentation and an optional object describing the nitty-gritty of formatting it, and producing an abstract typeset result. 21:47:46 By program I mean function. 21:50:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 21:50:55 What about when you want to write some mathematics? 21:51:30 Phantom_Hoover: That'll be part of the semantic format. The syntax will resemble LaTeX 21:51:32 *LaTeX. 21:51:47 Why not just have it BE LaTeX? 21:52:11 Or have a LaTeX to @type converter? 21:52:27 Phantom_Hoover: see /msg. 21:53:18 Secret typesetting conspirationism! 21:53:30 fizzie: Actually, Minecraft SMP. 21:53:54 Oh, well, that's far less intrigueish. 21:54:08 fizzie: And far more creepery. 21:56:49 fizzie: Got a spare server lying around?! 21:58:25 Phantom_Hoover: It can't BE LaTeX because LaTeX is implemented on top of TeX, a low-level, print-based, layout and formatting-centric, non-semantic, imperative language. 21:58:44 I was offered an old server by a family member, but I'm not up for paying money to my parents for the titanic electrical cost. 21:59:37 Phantom_Hoover: It's unlikely your connection is fast enough anyway. 21:59:51 Yep. 22:00:07 Ergo 22:00:16 fizzie: WIPE ZEM AND USE IT TO HOST MINECRAFT 22:04:50 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:18:55 Woo 22:19:01 I managed to stay awake all day 22:19:06 Reading stuff 22:19:12 I'm not sure it's quite performancey enough. 22:24:02 fizzie: RAM is the main thing. 22:25:25 fizzie: ALL YOUR OBJECTIONS WILL BE MET 22:26:41 It's something like a 1.5GHz Pentium M with maybe a gigabyte or two of memory. And a messy linux-vserver pseudo-virtualization thing. 22:27:36 fizzie: But, but we are blowing up TNT. 22:29:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:34:09 -!- Mesingw has joined. 22:34:24 -!- Mesingw has left (?). 22:37:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:38:17 Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you, tomorrow, you're only a day away 22:39:00 Sgeo, does the fact that you are singing love songs indicate events pertaining to Katie the AT? 22:39:04 Yes. 22:39:12 Phantom_Hoover: *Katie A.T. Female 22:39:24 I like how it's pronounced "Katie-atie". 22:40:47 Like an AT-AT from Star Wars. 22:41:20 I wouldn't be surprised if there is actually something called a KT-AT somewhere in the Star Wars EU. 22:41:31 -!- j-invariant has joined. 22:41:56 Sgeo, so basically, your girlfriend is part of the Imperial war machine. 22:42:11 I'm pretty sure that "I love you" referrs to "tomorrow" in that song, not to a person 22:42:12 Any questions? 22:42:21 Also, she's not my girlfriend 22:42:28 *object of lust? 22:43:01 -!- Tritonio has joined. 22:45:46 Doesn't matter, she's still part of the Imperial war machine. 22:45:50 Logic says so. 22:47:00 Phantom_Hoover: http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lere161DYc1qay7sto1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1295045258&Signature=cwhPuXXRZ/x2oU29OTpRyz2s044%3D 22:47:17 Awwwwwwww. 22:47:33 elliott: LNOL 22:47:34 lol 22:47:42 the smile at the end is hilarous 22:47:49 happy at last 22:48:24 Hey, logically you can make 8 coal from 1 coal now. 22:48:35 "logically"? 22:48:38 Given a supply of wood, which is far easier to secure than a supply of coal. 22:48:44 j-invariant, abuse of notation. 22:48:46 Phantom_Hoover: BANK RUN 22:48:56 Bank run? 22:49:05 Phantom_Hoover: There's an inefficiency in the market, EXPLOIT IT 22:49:12 Phantom_Hoover: Vastly inflate your coal supplies! 22:49:18 Phantom_Hoover: It's basically a wonky exchange rate. 22:49:26 "Given a supply of wood" you can make an indefinite amount of coal from 0 coal, can't you? 22:49:44 huh 22:49:50 logically?? 22:49:55 j-invariant, wood now smelts into coal. 22:50:02 Logically here is a picture of mars http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA13755 22:50:25 It's charcoal, not real coal, isn't it? (With identical behaviour, but still.) 22:50:40 Phantom_Hoover: do I have to update minecraft? I have never done that 22:50:55 j-invariant, it updates on start if you've bought it. 22:51:12 Also, I did say that "logically" was an abuse of notation. 22:51:18 I'll try to stamp it out. 22:51:25 what does it mean!! 22:51:26 It updates even when you don't want it to, until you take pains to prevent it. 22:51:30 Wait, I was ignoring you for suspected Englishness. 22:52:45 j-invariant: it means MEANINGNESS 22:52:53 Ecologically-sound torches/ 22:53:01 Apparently, bone meal makes crops grow instantly. 22:53:06 Phantom_Hoover: Wait a second. 22:53:14 Phantom_Hoover: 1 coal = infinite coal, modulo trees. 22:53:20 Phantom_Hoover: Coal is now a renewable resource. 22:53:20 Yes. 22:53:22 Yes. 22:53:24 Step 1: Mine 1 coal. 22:53:27 Step 2: Set up free farm. 22:53:29 Well, modulo cobble. 22:53:34 Step 3: Turn trees and coal into more trees and more coal. 22:53:43 Step 4: Forever 22:54:01 hurf durf i don't see why i should think when adding features 22:54:28 Phantom_Hoover: COMEDY: Notch claims the uselessness of gold is his OMG POLITICAL statement about gold's real-world usefulness. Coal is now renewable. Theory: Notch denies climate change. 22:54:40 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:54:41 What do you need the 1 coal for? 22:54:48 You don't. 22:55:58 Oh, indeed. 22:56:09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFyY2mK8pxk 22:56:43 "If you use 'octopodes' you had better be able to give this spiel at a moment's notice, and in a British accent." 22:56:46 Done and done. 22:57:10 octopine 22:58:19 Conclusion: people who say "octopi" are fair game for being punched in the face when they act like smug grammar Nazis. 22:58:37 octopi? who says that 22:59:15 smug nazis 22:59:20 the same people who say virii 22:59:30 is it also virodes? 22:59:47 Virii is fair game. 22:59:51 It's Latin-derived. 23:00:06 cacti 23:00:08 Glargh, apparently not. 23:00:19 Goddamn declensions. 23:00:24 Or is it conjugations? 23:00:27 Instead of VIRII? 23:00:30 virodes :D 23:01:25 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:01:33 Vorpal is busy turning his entire chests of coal into more coal. 23:01:34 yes, from now on every word ending in -us has -odes as the plural 23:01:45 i agree 23:01:52 uh... are there many? 23:01:53 I hate Latin dictionaries which just assume you can work out the declensions off-the-cuff from the set of endings they give you. 23:01:55 meatodes 23:02:16 The issue with "VIRII" as a plural for "VIRUS" is that in Latin, "VIRUS" is an uncountable noun. 23:02:24 wikipedia says "The word is from the Latin virus referring to poison and other noxious substances, first used in English in 1392. The plural is viruses." 23:02:32 http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=virus&ending= 23:02:34 HELPFUL 23:02:50 Not according to that dictionary, pikhq. 23:03:01 So if you were to be *accurate* with your plurals, the plural of "virus" would be "virus". 23:03:11 At least with comparison to their entry for arma, which I *know* is an uncountable noun. 23:03:25 (source: Wiktionary. May be wrong.) 23:04:52 Phantom_Hoover: Ah. According to Wikipedia, *some* dictionaries treat it as a generic second-declension noun. However, this is a neologism. 23:04:55 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:05:40 hello 23:05:59 If you do so, the plural is "VĪRA". 23:06:00 btw, why all the talk of octopodes recently? 23:07:18 olsner, they were added to MC. 23:07:24 what!! 23:07:40 j-invariant, they drop black dye. 23:07:52 They're more sqoctopodes. 23:07:53 And yes, I'm damned well using all-caps for Latin. 23:08:06 And those little lines on the vowels! 23:08:20 Consistent orthography is too puny for pikhq. 23:08:27 aha, so it went something like "* implemented octopi" in the change log and then an explosion of ZOMG WRONG PLURAL FORM? 23:08:41 I should have used it for "VĪRĪĪ" and "VĪRUS", as well. 23:08:58 Sqoctopodes <3 23:09:02 Or just omitted it in general. 23:09:18 pikhq, do the little lines, or do it in caps. 23:09:22 Don't do both. 23:09:34 And if you're going to do it in caps, use the Roman letters. 23:09:52 "VIRVS" or "vīrus". 23:09:56 One or the other. 23:09:59 Phantom_Hoover: The first is wrong. 23:10:05 Erm. 23:10:06 No. 23:10:22 U for V in the middle of words is a Medievalism. 23:10:36 Is it a bad sign that I think of Latin words with the Roman pronunciations? 23:11:29 It's technically right to do so with caps, as that practice *does* predate the presence of case in common usage... 23:11:38 *However*, it's not exactly classical. 23:11:38 Phantom_Hoover: you probably think of english words with english pronunciations... 23:12:05 Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I was thinking of it as "U because it's in the middle of a word", not "U because it's the vowel". 23:12:31 Yes, but does it make me unbearably pretentious to say "waynee weedee weekee" rather than "veiny veedy veechy"? 23:13:02 Depends on context. 23:13:37 olsner: It's just "* a new water dwelling mob" in the change log, the plural discussion started because the unofficial MC wiki had pages "Octopus", "Squid" and "Octopi" already created. 23:14:13 -!- Tritonio has joined. 23:14:28 Anyways. KONSISTENT ORÞOGRAΦY EYE DISPIES! 23:14:29 Phantom_Hoover: ViciViciVeb 23:18:15 -!- Tritonio has quit (Client Quit). 23:18:27 elliott: UuikiUuikiUueb. 23:18:43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv3Tt0fFJkU&feature=related 23:18:55 GET OUT OF MY HEAD YOU GODDAMN TUNE 23:19:02 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:21:04 so what should I be working on in the next four days 23:21:20 j-invariant: knowledge! 23:21:32 j-invariant: scapegoat! 23:21:37 The ONLY blame-based version control system! 23:21:49 haha 23:21:49 features such as: probably slower than even darcs 1 23:21:53 j-invariant: it's not a joke :D 23:22:00 j-invariant, the death of all people with second toes longer than their big ones! 23:22:05 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 23:22:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:22:32 it'll also probably use quite a bit of disk... 23:24:46 Every record of each revision contains the entire repository history up to that point. 23:25:06 of course, every revision needs to know what it started with 23:25:09 Unary-encoded for convenience. 23:25:24 pikhq: that lacks FEATURES 23:25:24 and unary is just the easiest way to encode anything :P 23:26:17 I'm reading Bertrand Russel "Introduction to the Problems of Philosophy" 23:26:18 btw, cutting your hair makes everywhere colder - the effect can be significant if there was a lot of it 23:26:24 Russell 23:26:36 the whole thing is.. stupid 23:26:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:26:47 what the hell is he talking about? 23:27:07 the problems of philosophy? 23:27:18 elliott: stuff like "tables don't exist even though I can touch them" 23:27:35 i don't believe in tables 23:27:52 I really have not got the slightest clue what he's trying to get at 23:28:33 is my gpu meant to be 73 C while idling? 23:28:48 does anyoen actually care about philosophy 23:28:48 why 23:28:54 elliott: No. 23:29:00 pikhq: well ... it is :D 23:29:00 elliott: But I suggest attaching a griddle to it. 23:29:06 pikhq: it's in a lapotp 23:29:08 *laptop 23:29:08 Fry you some bacon! 23:29:13 note that the laptop feels cool 23:29:19 ofc the thermal reading might just be bS 23:29:20 *BS 23:29:46 At 73°C, that shouldn't be cool to the touch. 23:29:51 :( 23:29:53 That should be melting your leg-flesh. 23:30:04 pikhq: i think the reading is taken from _inside_ the core 23:30:52 maybe I should write a tutorial about something that nobody cares about 23:31:06 elliott: Melting your leg-flesh! 23:31:17 j-invariant: make a tutorial about how to add one to an integer 23:31:32 pikhq: apparently it's now 84 C 23:32:08 elliott: this is trivial 23:32:08 hmm, feynman is cool 23:32:18 I like feynman 23:32:24 not if you make it hard 23:32:38 Bertrand Russell said "The goal of scienci is to find uniformities of the universe" 23:33:04 but Feynman said "I don't care if I get a simple equation for everything, I just want to understand nature. If there is no equation okay, that's what we find instead" 23:33:22 I don't get much out of Bertrand 23:33:35 Everything he says is not even wrong 23:34:45 pikhq: can i explain scapegoat to you, it's not fair just me and ais understanding it 23:34:47 copumpkin: or you 23:34:48 olsner: or you 23:34:49 j-invariant: or you 23:34:51 OR ANYONE 23:34:54 elliott: YOUR LEG-FLESH IS IN PAIN, I'M SURE. 23:34:58 elliott: you already did, it's hilarious 23:35:06 j-invariant: i explained it with one line?? 23:35:08 elliott: not now, I'm going to bed an hour ago 23:35:10 or have i mentioned it before 23:35:33 足肉が痛んでるよ！ 23:36:06 oh, there's a movie about feynman and throat singing 23:36:44 pikhq: ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED IN SCAPEGOAT 23:38:47 j-invariant: did i actually explain tit to you?? 23:38:56 yes 23:39:00 j-invariant: when 23:39:04 just now 23:39:23 j-invariant: that was not an explanation :) 23:39:48 j-invariant: so you don't want to know? : 23:39:49 :( 23:39:53 *it 23:41:10 pah 23:41:14 i'll bother copumpkin more then 23:41:17 SUSPICIOUS LACK OF REPLY 23:41:33 when did copumpkin end up in here anyway? 23:41:48 when PH got lambdabot back 23:41:53 all the DAMNED HASKELLERS invaded 23:41:56 and copumpkin kinda stuck 23:42:12 oh, we have a lambdabot now 23:42:14 @quote Plugin 23:42:15 Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list 23:42:23 Phantom_Hoover: http://twitter.com/pigworker/status/25356492341252096 GET THERE NOW 23:43:00 Desperately Seeking Conor 23:43:11 he's in edinburgh dammit 23:43:14 he can get there 23:43:25 NO EXCUSE NOT TO 23:43:49 elliott: it just says he's teaching.. it's not an invitation :P 23:43:59 j-invariant: but it COULD be! 23:44:09 ;yeah .. if you misinterpret it 23:44:10 if all else fails, stand at the window with your face pressed to the glass, listening intently 23:44:13 perhaps with a glass 23:45:05 j-invariant: you can talk to him on IRC 23:45:50 I'm sure he loves all the stupid questions we throw at him in #epigram 23:46:13 copumpkin: you fool! if you talk to him on IRC, you'll interrupt his Epigram coding! 23:46:18 why do you think 2 is taking so damn long?? 23:46:24 lol 23:47:02 copumpkin: On the OTHER hand, asking me questions about scapegoat slows nothing down and everyone should do it. 23:47:16 hm 23:47:18 new version of uAgda 23:47:38 * quintopia steals all of vorpal's entropy 23:47:45 is there any neat way to diff two directories? 23:47:56 there's a programm called diff :P 23:48:00 *program 23:48:09 it can do taht?! 23:48:15 sure, diff -r 23:48:18 xD 23:48:21 OH MY GOD IT CAN DIFF DIRECTORIES 23:48:27 THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE 23:48:27 grat!! 23:48:35 absolutely grat 23:48:50 hm 23:48:57 I'm diffing aginst my hacked copy 23:49:07 you can also get kdiff or another graphical diffing tool, but most of them suck way more than diff and less combined 23:49:20 olsner: so since you're not sleeping i must tell you about scapegoat 23:49:29 (and colordiff will make that suck even less) 23:49:53 oh, you'll just drive me away so I'm forced to sleep 23:50:09 >:( 23:50:15 j-invariant: SCAPEGOAT 23:50:15 this update doesn't fix the bug I mentioned 23:50:22 elliott: uAGDA 23:50:24 j-invariant: are you sure they actually saw the post about it 23:50:29 j-invariant: you should have stored your uagda changes in scapegoa 23:50:29 t 23:50:35 elliott, what do you think of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality? 23:50:38 elliott: it sounds interesting, which is what makes it so dangerous 23:50:44 then I would be blamed for breaking it? 23:51:00 Sgeo: it's amusing, i haven't read it for ages 23:51:05 two new uAgda example codes 23:51:06 (hmm, shaving... I can't imagine some people actually do that every single day) 23:51:12 j-invariant: that isn't how scapegoat works dammit 23:51:18 * Sgeo loves it so far 23:51:34 elliott: I have this beautiful vision of scapegoat in ym head, don't ruin it! 23:51:49 elliott: how does it work? 23:51:52 j-invariant: the reality is even better, because it's FRACTAL!! (not really but) 23:51:57 Sgeo: the problem is that it never updates! 23:51:59 j-invariant: well! 23:52:19 j-invariant: basically, everything is a Change, capital C 23:52:19 and uh 23:52:20 wait 23:52:24 maybe i can get olsner to listen if i try hard enough 23:52:29 and copumpkin, i don't really wanna do this three times 23:52:31 which is, of course, 23:52:33 inevitable 23:52:44 -- let's use parametricity in a useful way: prove that any 23:52:44 -- function of type (X : *) -> X -> X is the identity. 23:53:04 save the log, then paste it one line at a time at the right interval to make it seem like you're doing it in person all over 23:53:15 j-invariant: f _ _ _ = undefined 23:53:20 Mathnerd314: is not a function. 23:53:21 Mathnerd314: uAgda 23:53:23 @free a -> a 23:53:23 Extra stuff at end of line 23:53:27 @them a -> a 23:53:28 you are welcome 23:53:32 argh what's the theroems for free command 23:53:33 *theorem 23:53:34 @themk 23:53:35 : parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 23:53:35 *theorems 23:53:36 @them 23:53:36 you are welcome 23:53:37 * Mathnerd314 hates termination checkers 23:53:37 @them 23:53:37 you are welcome 23:53:41 @help 23:53:42 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 23:53:43 Mathnerd314: lol. 23:53:48 Mathnerd314: it's not a "termination checker" 23:53:53 it's just a sub-TC language 23:53:58 not a TC language + some checker 23:54:01 that's a stupid way to think about it 23:54:11 "sub-TC" is silly 23:54:13 also, good luck doing proofs with _|_ 23:54:19 it's not strongly normalizing /because/ it's sub-TC 23:54:29 it's sub-TC because it's SN! 23:54:34 well, non-TC 23:54:38 you know whaddimean 23:54:48 tell me about scapegoat! 23:54:50 @list 23:54:51 http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS 23:54:59 j-invariant: convince olsner to stay up long enough to listen and i WILL 23:55:09 @free a -> a 23:55:09 Extra stuff at end of line 23:55:14 @free f :: a -> a 23:55:14 g . f = f . g 23:55:16 elliott: help me program in uAgda 23:55:21 worst theorem for free 23:55:25 j-invariant: i can only do one of those two things :D 23:55:37 elliott: hmm, maybe, how long will this take? :) 23:55:48 olsner: like 15 minutes max? 23:55:57 http://pastebin.com/JmXRenaa 23:55:59 CHeck this out 23:56:08 cool, that's about as long as is left of this half-played episode I just found 23:56:25 olsner: do I have to duke it out to the death with that episode? 23:56:30 also, "max" 23:56:33 j-invariant: neat 23:56:37 yes! 23:56:49 (I find paused mplayer windows all over, then I have to watch them to the end after unpausing) 23:57:02 elliott: why is that a bad free theorem? 23:57:18 elliott: no, I expect you to coexist peacefully 23:57:29 olsner: i refuse to talk to anyone without FULL ATTENTION! scapegoat is IMPORTANT1 23:57:31 *IMPORTANT! 23:57:34 copumpkin: it could give "f = id" :P 23:58:04 that's not how it works :P 23:58:07 copumpkin: you want to hear about scapegoat, I'm sure 23:58:12 I'm at work 23:58:21 copumpkin: ALL THE MORE REASON 23:58:27 wait, where are you? 23:58:36 i have this conception that ou're in the uk 23:58:38 *you're 23:58:52 he could be canadian 23:59:03 elliott: see my paste 23:59:10 j-invariant: i did 23:59:17 elliott: be more excited!! 23:59:21 j-invariant: i was! 23:59:28 elliott: nah, US 23:59:29 elliott: the ! thing is like "gimme parametricity" 23:59:47 copumpkin: oh ... so you're lame 23:59:54 why? 23:59:58 because, uh 23:59:59 because