00:00:02 why? 00:00:05 BECAUSE I SAID SO 00:00:16 hey, I'm from england originally :P 00:00:23 sure, sure 00:00:25 not sure what f! A< (Eq A< x<) x< (\_ p -> p) does 00:00:28 giving them the secrets of our bad teeth 00:00:29 bastard 00:00:31 born in london! 00:00:35 looking at the type of f! doesn't really help 00:02:19 olsner: have you seen the light yet 00:02:36 he's silent because he's regretful 00:02:37 no, it's still winter here 00:02:48 olsner: have you seen the scapeglight 00:03:08 that's not a word I know, so it's hard for me to determine that 00:03:09 elliott: you're a bad englishman by american standards, anyway 00:03:15 copumpkin: o rly? 00:03:19 olsner: the light of scapegoat 00:03:31 copumpkin: I bet he eats crumpets and drinks tea, isn't that enough? 00:03:45 elliott: you're not supposed to be enthusiastic and noisy. You're supposed to be posh and nonchalant 00:03:50 I eat crumpets and drink tea 00:03:57 I also like marmite and potato waffles 00:04:00 copumpkin: i totally am, when i don't talk about scapegoat 00:04:05 which is, incidentally, the best thing? 00:04:13 wtf is scapegoat 00:04:16 i'm aiming to be as annoying as possible until everyone agrees that talking about scapegoat would be preferable 00:04:18 (that's a rhetorical quesiton, I don't want to know) 00:04:21 copumpkin: THE BEST VERSION CONTROL SYSTEM EVER 00:04:27 NOOOOOOOO 00:04:30 elliott: I already did 00:04:43 j-invariant: yeah but i'm trying to get as many people involved as possible first so we can have a big scapegoat party 00:04:49 augur: HEY YOU 00:04:50 elliott: yeah you are losing me though 00:04:53 augur: ask me about scapegoat 00:04:54 nooga: also you 00:05:03 j-invariant: i'm on the verge of giving up and just telling you 00:06:08 j-invariant: ok fine i will 00:06:11 hey elliott 00:06:12 sup 00:06:15 j-invariant: do you know how git and darcs work 00:06:15 whats scapegoat 00:06:20 augur: THE BEST VERSION CONTROL SYSTEM EVER 00:06:24 now if you'd just been talking about scapegoat instead of talking about talking about scapegoat... 00:06:30 invented by ais, refined (BRILLIANTLY) by me!!!!124823954365706432-2== 00:06:36 what i'm saying is i'm a genius? anyway ask me about it 00:06:47 i don't want to monologue like oklopol 00:07:02 elliott: how does scapegoat store its data? 00:07:03 sounds boring 00:07:04 bye 00:07:41 augur: Mathnerd314: that's not the interesting part 00:07:51 yeah but thats not new, elliott 00:07:55 you already elliott: then wth is? 00:09:16 Mathnerd314: all the rest! 00:09:59 elliott: please enumerate the components of "all the rest" 00:10:24 Mathnerd314: ALL of the rest! 00:11:38 elliott: for each individual element of "the rest", please print a textual description of it 00:11:45 Mathnerd314: set is not countable 00:12:58 elliott: use the axiom of choice 00:13:15 elliott: btw time's up 00:13:28 olsner: damn you 00:13:42 Mathnerd314: i don't accept extensional choice :) 00:13:46 axiom of choice doesn't exist 00:13:54 (trolling) 00:15:24 elliott: then we live in different universes and anything you say will be uninteresting 00:15:58 Mathnerd314: seriously? 00:16:14 Mathnerd314: so you think everything, say, intuitionists say is inherently uninteresting? 00:17:00 elliott: study normalization proofs with me 00:17:19 j-invariant: no :D 00:17:44 elliott: well, uninteresting past the point where you accept other axoms. 00:17:47 *axioms 00:17:53 elliott: why not :/ 00:18:01 Mathnerd314: you have "math" in your name, you are into this stuff 00:18:02 Mathnerd314: what does that mean? 00:18:04 j-invariant: sounds painful 00:18:07 j-invariant: and no he isn't 00:18:09 note also the "314" 00:18:11 LOL 00:18:13 good point 00:18:20 wait now I feel mean :( 00:18:31 I like pi 00:19:09 j-invariant: my nick was carefully constructed for maximum confusion 00:20:15 it is only slightly descriptive. 00:20:30 Mathnerd314: at least you chopped it off whre the next digit is <= 5 00:20:44 well < 5 00:20:47 Mathnerd314: I have when people write stuff like 3.141 00:20:50 hate* 00:21:35 pi is 3.1 00:22:44 elliott: pi is off by a factor of two from the rest of math. 00:22:58 i too have read "pi is wrong" and the tau manifesto. 00:23:22 perfectly agreeable articles that serve the secondary purpose of giving people who don't really know any math something to have opinions about 00:23:39 exactyl 00:24:09 -!- polymorf has joined. 00:24:20 i'm really sad that my map structure doesn't work 00:24:22 although maybe i can augment it 00:24:34 hahahaha wait, it does work, sorta... if you can enumerate the values of any type 00:24:51 -!- polymorf has left (?). 00:25:04 @hoogle [(a,a)] -> [a] 00:25:05 Data.Ix range :: Ix a => (a, a) -> [a] 00:25:05 System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a] 00:25:05 Prelude snd :: (a, b) -> b 00:25:14 * pikhq laughs 00:25:22 :t concatMap (\(a,b) -> [a,b]) 00:25:24 forall t. [(t, t)] -> [t] 00:25:30 @pl (\(a,b)->[a,b]) 00:25:31 uncurry ((. return) . (:)) 00:25:31 pikhq: ? 00:25:37 SCEA's lawyers have apparently shown up in #ps3dev on EFnet. 00:25:38 My dad's yelling at me to buy shoes 00:25:41 :t zip 00:25:42 forall a b. [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)] 00:25:46 The day before I go to the mall with someone 00:25:49 * Sgeo mindboggles 00:25:53 @pl (\xs ys -> concatMap (\(a,b) -> [a,b]) (zip xs ys)) 00:25:54 ((uncurry ((. return) . (:)) =<<) .) . zip 00:25:56 :D 00:26:01 Not saying anything. Just a guy with the right host mask. 00:26:04 @hoogle [a] -> [a] -> [a] 00:26:05 Prelude (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] 00:26:05 Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] 00:26:05 Data.List deleteFirstsBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a] 00:26:06 pikhq: :D 00:26:06 Sgeo: tell him not to yell or just ignore him 00:26:18 j-invariant, oh, oops. He's not literally yelling. 00:26:29 elliott: http://pastie.org/1458314 Here's logs. 00:26:54 > [-1,-2..] 00:26:55 [-1,-2,-3,-4,-5,-6,-7,-8,-9,-10,-11,-12,-13,-14,-15,-16,-17,-18,-19,-20,-21... 00:27:02 > [-1..] 00:27:03 [-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,... 00:27:37 kdutine: hi! 00:27:39 OH MAN IT'S RMS 00:27:48 Almost certainly not *the* RMS. 00:28:11 OF COURSE IT IS 00:28:24 j-invariant: quick, gimme some haskell to enumerate all strings 00:28:26 wait 00:28:28 i can just enumerate chars 00:28:30 elliott: I already did 00:28:30 and then [a] 00:28:32 j-invariant: you did? 00:31:17 instance (Elems a) => Elems [a] where 00:31:17 elems = concatMap ofLength [0..] 00:31:17 where ofLength 0 = [] 00:31:17 ofLength n = 00:31:17 concatMap (\xs -> concatMap (\x -> xs++[x]) elems) (ofLength (n-1)) 00:31:20 j-invariant: was it less ugly than that? 00:31:33 yes :P 00:31:37 j-invariant: show :P 00:31:43 I told you yesterday 00:31:50 HINT: concatMap is (>>=) 00:31:52 you did? o_O 00:31:57 oh right 00:32:03 * elliott tries to find t :D 00:32:04 *it 00:32:10 -!- Tritonio has joined. 00:32:17 well it might not have been yesterday 00:32:22 but it was in the past 00:32:24 hmm grepping >>= on the logs actually gives nothing, how strange 00:32:41 definitely not before the 8th unless i'm missing something, wasn't it in haskell? 00:32:55 *#haskell 00:33:17 flip replicateM "fobar" =<< [1..] 00:33:20 > flip replicateM "fobar" =<< [1..] 00:33:22 ["f","o","b","a","r","ff","fo","fb","fa","fr","of","oo","ob","oa","or","bf"... 00:34:17 ah thanks :) 00:34:58 class Elems a where elems :: [a] 00:34:58 instance Elems Bool where elems = [False, True] 00:34:58 instance Elems Integer where elems = interleave [0..] [-1,-2..] 00:34:58 instance (Bounded a) => Elems a where elems = [minBound..maxBound] 00:34:58 instance (Elems a) => Elems [a] where elems = flip replicateM elems =<< [0..] 00:35:23 hehe this is like exaustive quickcheck 00:35:27 haha 00:35:34 j-invariant: guess how this helps me implement toList 00:35:43 :S 00:35:49 you're actually going to /USE/ this stuff 00:35:49 :t maybe 00:35:51 forall b a. b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b 00:35:56 j-invariant: no, this is in a toy :D 00:36:03 even in a toy... 00:36:30 toList :: (Elems k) => PM k v -> [(k,v)] 00:36:31 toList m = concatMap (\k -> maybe [] (k,) (m k)) elems 00:36:32 j-invariant: BEHOLD 00:36:43 yes indeed 00:36:45 type PM k v = k -> Maybe v 00:36:52 elliott: have you got multitouch to work? 00:36:55 yes 00:36:58 hao? 00:37:02 O_o 00:37:02 installing things 00:37:03 i want too 00:37:08 j-invariant: best ever? 00:37:09 which thingsssss 00:37:11 that gives an open list? 00:37:12 URL 00:37:17 like [1,2,3,4, 00:37:27 * cheater- [explosion] elliott 00:37:28 cheater-: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir3-2/Meerkat 00:37:29 j-invariant: yep 00:37:34 j-invariant: but it's GOOD ENOUGH :D 00:37:36 useful X) 00:37:36 ok 00:37:43 j-invariant: well hey, got a better idea? 00:37:48 j-invariant: I could just keep the [(k,v)] along with it 00:37:52 but then the function would just be an optimistaion 00:37:54 *optimisation 00:37:56 and I HATE optimisations! 00:38:13 elliott: it's hnot possible unless you do something ugly like carry around an upper bound 00:38:19 j-invariant: ew 00:38:32 j-invariant: inserting would be hilariously slow :D 00:38:32 elliott: that's how polynomials are doen :( 00:38:34 I hate it 00:38:38 unless i had a fast goedelNumber thing 00:38:44 j-invariant: huh 00:39:06 undecidable instances FUCK YEAHHHHHHH 00:39:31 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:40:20 j-invariant: but hey 00:40:31 *Main> toList Main.empty :: [(Bool,Integer)] 00:40:31 [] 00:40:33 just use finite keys :D 00:40:44 * elliott does "toList Main.empty :: [(Int,Integer)]" 00:40:46 should terminate eventually 00:41:22 wtf 00:41:29 *Main> toList (insert 3 42 Main.empty) :: [(Int,Integer)] 00:41:29 C-c C-cInterrupted. 00:41:35 j-invariant: is concatMap not lazy or something? 00:41:42 oh 00:41:43 lol 00:41:51 j-invariant: "elems :: [Int]" --> all negatives first 00:42:36 elliott: teach me haskell :D 00:42:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:42:39 no 00:42:42 pls 00:42:44 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:43:00 i'll have to have ais teach me all of haskell then.. 00:43:20 he'll be preoccupied and won't be able to write any more papers that you can illegally download.. 00:43:41 * cheater00 terrorizes elliott a little bit 00:43:52 cheater00: i don't think ais will. 00:44:02 i'm sure he's friendly enough 00:44:15 j-invariant: can i see how you did the upper bound thing? 00:44:50 j-invariant: hey i just realised, you can look up any element certain types of infinite maps in finite time with my impl :D 00:44:51 e.g. 00:44:54 (\k -> Just k) 00:44:57 is the mapping i -> i 00:45:50 elliott: I never actually wrote it but it would be type PM k v = (k,k -> Maybe v) -- with the condition that for k' > k, f k' = Nothing 00:46:11 j-invariant: hmm does String have Ord? wait of course 00:46:22 j-invariant: you still have to enumerate every string below that one though :-P 00:46:23 elliott: everything has Ord! 00:46:36 a < b if a is enumerated first 00:46:39 j-invariant: the idea is that with a perfect lazy specialiser, this should be a very fast implementation 00:46:50 this will never be efficient :P 00:46:55 j-invariant: because (f key) for common key will automatically get specialised 00:47:02 which will involve the impl inserting key into a hash table for f 00:47:11 mapping it to a constant value 00:47:15 i.e. it turns into a hash table lookup 00:48:40 j-invariant: but enumerating is a problem :/ 00:49:18 http://polymathematics.typepad.com/polymath/2006/06/no_im_sorry_it_.html?cid=18295323#comment-6a00d8341bfda053ef00d83492d19d53ef troll :D 00:49:31 wtf that link doesn't work 00:49:37 weird 00:50:23 I don't understand why people discuss that 0.999.. thing so much 00:50:29 why do people care at all? It's so lame 00:50:34 Through proofs, yes, you have "proven" that .9 repeating equals 1 and also through certain definitions. 00:50:35 But in the realm of logic and another definition you are wrong. .9 repeating is not an integer by the definition of an integer, and 1 most certainly is an integer. Mathematically, algebraicly...whatever, they have the same value, but that doesn't mean they are the same number. 00:50:35 I'm getting more out of "hard" mathematics and more into the paradoxical realm. Have you ever heard of Zeno's paradoxes? I think that's the most relevant counter-argument to this topic. Your "infinity" argument works against you in this respect. While you can never come up with a value that you can represent mathematically on paper to add to .999... to equal one or to come up with an average of the two 00:50:36 , that doesn't mean that it doesn't conceptually exist. "Infinity" is just as intangible as whatever that missing value is. 00:50:38 but every time it comes up people discuss it for hours 00:50:58 discuss 00:51:05 more like idiots are idiots and other people yell at them 00:53:24 what, jsmath is lagging my browser 00:56:54 j-invariant: so how goes the dependent cas :P 00:57:04 I'm not making one 00:58:02 j-invariant: but i thought that's what you were doing :( 00:59:23 j-invariant: or did you give up? 01:00:50 -!- myndzi has joined. 01:01:33 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:01:55 -!- myndzi has joined. 01:04:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 01:05:52 -!- myndzi has quit (Client Quit). 01:07:00 -!- myndzi has joined. 01:16:26 Gregor: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41047777 01:16:28 ... 01:16:30 xD 01:16:34 that was a random link from reddit 01:16:35 stupid clipboard 01:16:38 Gregor: http://xkcdinosaur.blogspot.com/ 01:16:42 Gregor: You have been one-upped. 01:18:19 huh 01:19:03 huh? 01:22:50 elliott: :D 01:24:06 Dear EVERY FUCKING FLASH VIDEO PLAYER EVER: stop requiring buffers of INCREASINGLY LARGE SIZE. 01:26:04 In fact: every buffering scheme for video from the Internet ever: YOU SUCK. 01:26:41 Buffer enough that, if the current average download speed continues, you will get to the end of the video without ever once stopping. 01:28:02 plus a bit 01:28:39 Sometimes, YouTube will claim an amount is buffered, and playback is before that point, yet it still stops 01:31:47 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:31:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 01:31:50 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:33:37 Also, every fucking flash video player ever: HAND ME A URL TO THE ACTUAL VIDEO FILE. FLASH SUCKS. 01:34:45 lol 01:35:39 -> 01:35:41 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:39:25 pikhq: Handing you a URL to the video file would be an extremely poor way to prevent you from learning the URL to the video file. 01:41:41 Gregor: Why yes, yes it would. 01:42:10 Gregor: Of course, as preventing me from learning the URL to the video file is, I do believe, a "dick move", that is irrelevant. 01:51:39 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:13:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:16:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:17:23 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:18:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:20:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:25:07 pikhq: even if it's a flv? 02:25:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:26:07 quintopia: ... So? 02:26:15 quintopia: .flv is just a video container format. 02:26:26 mplayer demuxes it just fine. 02:26:31 ah 02:43:33 Heh... Reminds me of once figuring out URL for datastream for flash video and then just downloading it... 02:45:08 (It was a video about IPv4 depletion). 02:49:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 03:13:38 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:43:11 " why do people care at all? It's so lame" <<< maybe it's something where people think they are allowed to have an opinion in mathematics, and people love having opinions 03:43:53 people never seem to debate whether 0.3 recurring is 1/3 03:44:45 well that's equivalent, people always prove an equivalence proof with 0.999... vs 1 first, as a lemma 03:46:49 it's funny because what i see as the difference between S^Z and R is really that 0.9999.... is *defined* to be 1, by taking a certain equivalence relation between elements of S^Z 03:47:18 of course, R has operations and shit, but that's just because after this quotienting, those start making sense 03:48:47 well, of course you can always define R that way, i guess i can't exactly put into words what exactly is funny here 03:55:31 I'm somewhat confused about the functional nature of Haskell when it comes to IO. I have an entire program written in Haskell. But the moment I want to stop inputting the numbers directly in the program - and use command line arguments I need put everything in a do section and use IOStrings - right? 03:56:17 you typically keep your "business logic" out of IO 03:56:28 haskell kind of stops being functional when it comes to IO... :P 03:56:33 (but only a little bit!) 03:56:34 not really 03:57:42 copumpkin, yes - but lets say I had some business logic "add these two numbers to together and return the result" I can't pass that function any numbers I got from input 03:57:53 sure you can 03:58:00 how? 03:58:02 *Oh wow*. 03:58:18 say you have add :: Int -> Int -> Int 03:58:33 kk 03:58:37 So. That person-from-the-SCEA-lawfirm who signed onto the #ps3dev room? 03:58:38 do x <- readLn; y <- readLn; print (add x y) 03:58:49 *He used his real name*. 03:58:54 pikhq: smart of him 03:58:57 what was it? 03:59:04 I quit #ps3dev 03:59:10 it was depressing 03:59:19 "kdutine" was his nick; "Kip Dutine" is his name. 04:00:06 pikhq, you sure it wasn't a parody ? 04:00:08 copumpkin: Shame that it's like 4 or 5 intelligent people and hundreds of complete morons going "LAWL PIRACY". 04:00:17 variable: The host mask was from the actual lawfirm. 04:00:39 pikhq, I call Poe! <----- joke 04:01:05 WHAT THE HELL python library for wikipedia 04:01:12 all "edit times" are 0 :- 04:01:33 But seriously... Those people who want a backup manager working on 3.55? Get off your ass and write it yourself if you care that much. If you can't be bothered, well, shaddup about it! 04:02:07 pikhq: damn right 04:03:01 Though I *would* like to see a region-free PS1 and PS2 loader one of these days... I'm not exactly pestering the people who are trying to figure out how shit works about it! 04:05:58 i read that as religion-free PS1 and PS2 loader 04:06:09 and i didn't get it 04:07:05 oklopol, ha 04:09:10 pikhq: you should join the fun! 04:09:36 all the cool kids are getting sued, so should you! 04:24:26 -!- azaq23 has joined. 04:38:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:42:57 moerning oerjan 05:12:01 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:15:10 -!- comex has joined. 05:59:08 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:59:27 -!- augur has joined. 07:04:50 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:06:14 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:07:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:24:40 -!- shaswot has joined. 07:35:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:50:53 wow, ice's expansion pressure is huge 07:51:44 shaswot: the channel knows, I do not 07:52:48 What is it the channel knows? (Why does that sound like a silly riddle?) 07:55:43 the channel knows all, sees all 07:56:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:31 pikhq: water has ridiculous expansion pressure when it freezes 08:04:58 do you know how much pressure is required to melt water at 251 K? 08:05:19 2040 atm 08:05:26 we should harness this somehow 08:05:48 is 2040 atm a lot? 08:06:37 1 atm is atmospheric pressure 08:06:41 20000 meters of water if i recall correctly? 08:06:44 (hence atmosphere) 08:06:52 i know that 08:06:55 doesn't tell me anything 08:07:06 that water thing tells me something 08:07:10 if it's true 08:07:52 uhm 08:08:26 more 08:08:41 okay, i recalled 10 meters of water is one atmosphere 08:09:17 actually, it may be less 08:09:25 due to the increasing force of gravity at depths 08:09:30 simple linear calculations won't account for that 08:09:40 (also the slight compressibility of water) 08:09:52 erm 20km matters for that? 08:09:57 gravity 08:09:59 20km is roughly correct though 08:10:54 well anyway i don't know any physics, was just wondering if 2040 was actually a lot in some sense 08:11:26 and that sure sounds like a lot 08:11:52 hmm, actually based on the movies i've seen about space stuff, the atmosphere basically keeps us together 08:11:58 so i guess it's not that little 08:12:05 20km affects acceleration due to gravity by somewhere in the vicinity of 1% 08:12:25 which isn't much, but if you're doing the calculus, it matters 08:12:28 in which direction? 08:12:32 down 08:12:40 but I'm approximating anyways 08:12:41 alright, makes sense 08:12:45 yeah sure 08:12:45 (this is assumed from sea level) 08:13:12 or, err, actually average radius 08:13:19 oklopol: "Normal high pressure gas cylinders or bottles will hold from 200 to 400 atmosphere (unit)s." (According to the omniscipedia.) 08:13:47 APNIC pool: 39 212 032 08:13:53 :( 08:13:58 that's a depressing number 08:14:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:14:33 So, when you're thirsty and it's -22 degrees Celsius out there, you should try something else than squeezing a block of ice to get some water to drink? 08:16:02 How low was it supposed to go, anyway? 08:18:24 -!- shaswot has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:18:31 The esimated number at next allocation (triggering X-day): 32M-37M. 08:19:02 -!- shaswot has joined. 08:21:56 Seemingly someone in the US allocated a /10... 08:22:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:23:48 Now that kind of allocation from APNIC could be pretty much instant X-day... 08:28:28 So about 2M-7M left... 08:37:26 -!- Tritonio has joined. 08:39:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 08:41:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:41:19 -!- shaswot has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:41:54 -!- shaswot has joined. 08:43:11 -!- shaswot has left (?). 10:12:21 * quintopia steals all of vorpal's entropy <-- nasty 10:12:30 * Vorpal steals it back 10:12:48 YOU CANNOT DO THAT WITHOUT APPLYING WORK 10:15:05 oerjan, a friend gave me some for the purpose of this. 10:15:12 O KAY 10:16:30 time to fetch clog logs again. Should add a daily cron entry calling the downloading script 10:16:53 currently it happens rather erratically 10:22:03 the japanese class is sneaky, i just realized all the frequent messages from the teacher are now in japanese, and i have no idea when that happened 10:22:33 hah 10:23:09 oklopol, then I guess that means you are getting the hang of the language 10:23:25 (except for a couple of translations in some messages, and complete translations in certain cases, maybe this was the first one without those) 10:40:56 bbl 10:45:13 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:45:59 -!- cheater00 has joined. 10:54:50 pon 10:55:52 'pon my honour 11:11:44 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:29:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:51:22 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:29:59 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:34:06 -!- j-invariant has joined. 12:39:30 does the minecraft world wrap around? 12:39:37 ilke a donus 12:43:28 I'm not sure that that's known 12:43:34 It's certainly never been seen 12:43:57 Should be determinable based on the source 12:51:44 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:53:51 Sgeo: I don't know if I went all the way around or just in a circle 12:54:06 Sgeo: so nobody knows where it tends? 12:54:14 How many RL years were you travelling for? 12:54:23 also what do you mean by "source" 12:55:10 Oh, right, MC's closed-sourceish 12:58:22 I wish you could change your spawn point 12:59:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:59:54 On some servers you can use the /spawn command to do that; in single-player, I'm not so sure. 13:01:27 You could in creative. 13:01:39 You definitely can by editing the save file, but that's kludgy. 13:02:02 Not /spawn, /setspawn or something. 13:04:39 According to Wikipedia, "the largest possible world size to date reaching the equivalent of nearly eight times the surface area of the Earth before running into technical limitations", but the citation attached refers to a pretty old blog post. 13:06:31 Protocol-wise sometimes it sends absolute position numbers given as signed 32-bit ints that indicate 1/32ths of a block; that would allow for a 2^27 x 2^27 block square. 13:08:00 wow thats insane 13:08:08 I thought it would juts be quite a small world 13:08:18 That would be quite a lot more than "eight times the surface area of the Earth", so perhaps there are other limitations. 13:08:59 Wikipedia says Earth has a surface area of 510,072,000 km^2; a 2^27 metre square has about 35 times that. 13:10:30 On our server the furthest place anyone's traveled has been about 140 kilometres away from the spawn, and that was enough to basically crash it, so I'm not sure how feasible an Earth-sized world is with the current architecture. 13:10:39 It will at least take a lot of disk space. 13:10:40 hey 13:10:46 i should totally break that record manually 13:10:54 the further you walk the more world it generates? 13:11:08 yeah, but doesn't it drop the stuff you didn't change? 13:11:16 answer to j, question to f 13:11:49 No, it just unloads those blocks on disk. 13:11:53 As far as I know. 13:12:05 I don't think it ever shrinks the world. 13:12:38 I'm not entirely certain about that, though. 13:13:20 ineiros' file listings would probably answer that; if there's an unbroken path of chunks to the furthest point, then it probably doesn't. 13:13:44 can you hack your way in and check? 13:13:54 or break into his house 13:14:37 I could maybe just ask. 13:14:51 oh right 13:14:56 the third option 13:15:07 honestly didn't occur to me 13:16:39 next on the list was marrying him an infinite amount of times, and always getting half those files in the divorce 13:16:45 lol 13:17:00 What. 13:17:14 what? 13:17:32 oklopol: Constantly walking into one direction for 8 hours should (if I calculated right) give you the coveted "been furthest away" award (well, assuming you wouldn't have to go around mountains or anything). As well as create about ten thousand files (around a hundred megabytes, maybe) on his disk. 13:17:48 :O 13:17:58 could it handle that? 13:18:04 8 hours isn't exactly a long walk 13:18:17 Based on someone's forum-post saying walking speed is "about 5 blocks/second". 13:18:45 well, 80 hours isn't a long walk, as a project 13:18:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:18:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 13:18:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:19:13 !perl print 8*60*60*5 13:19:14 144000 13:19:22 Yes, that'd be about 144 kilometres. 13:19:28 well. maybe it's slightly over medium, since it's not *that* much fun without far 13:19:39 I'm not sure the "5 blocks/s" is in fact accurate. 13:19:44 that's weird, since you can't walk that much in 8 hours 13:19:55 That's 18 km/h, it sounds a bit fast for a walk. 13:20:09 oh right 5 blocks a second is not 5km/h 13:20:24 i forgot hours are stupid 13:20:31 i don't use them much 13:21:03 Minecart max speed is 8 blocks/s, according to Minepedia, but I'm not sure how to compare. It does feel a lot faster than walking. 13:21:08 I saw a travel speed table somewhere. 13:21:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_lmMmYAyow 13:21:42 XD 13:21:47 4.27 m/s, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Transportation 13:21:52 well note that i would probably not do it by running straight ahead, but strolling away, looking at the world 13:22:04 Quite possibly the funniest thing Fox News has ever done. 13:22:13 'sup? 13:22:33 Well, assuming 2 blocks/sec of actual progress, that'd be 20 hours. 13:22:45 what the helll LOL 13:23:18 I'm still laughing. 13:24:35 "and that simple contact could be all that pedophile needs to fulfill his fantasies for the day" 13:25:14 oklopol, what MC things are you doing? 13:25:35 erm, currently i'm just making a base, but i feel kinda nomadish after that short talk 13:25:39 Phantom_Hoover: He wanted to be the guy who's been furthest away from spawn, so I was computerizing how much walking would it take to get to (100k,100k). 13:25:51 Lots. 13:25:53 a creeper blew up my pyramid :( 13:25:55 not really 13:26:00 according to fizzie 13:26:18 Phantom_Hoover: It's not that much: 8 hours if you could proceed with maximum walking speed to one direction; 20 hours might be realistic, even. 13:26:44 fizzie: though you might die half way 13:26:48 nope 13:26:52 j-invariant: You can't die on that server. 13:26:55 And then I will just //goto one metre further. 13:26:56 oh 13:27:11 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you'd be a FILTHY CHEATER. 13:27:17 Phantom_Hoover: that wouldn't really change anything 13:27:42 going farthest is the inspiration, not an actual goal 13:28:03 oklopol: You could try walking 100 km to bring visibility for some charity, I hear that's very popular. 13:28:11 :D 13:28:23 walking 100km irl isn't much of a project either 13:28:38 we did this rather spontaneous 80km walk one weekend 13:28:43 Yes, but on-server there'd be a large audience. 13:28:49 surely 13:28:58 Walk 4Mm. 13:29:22 You can then say to everyone you walked the distance through the world! 13:30:18 That's not quite the whole world. 13:30:41 Wait, 4000Mm is the radius, isn't it? 13:30:50 It's not that either, I don't think. 13:31:00 4000 megameters? 13:31:08 oh you corrected 13:31:09 yourself 13:31:16 Because some protocol messages use absolute-integer coordinates that denote 1/32ths of a block; that'd be 2^27 metres. 13:31:31 also i might not have that much time for mc now since i just realized courses + other stuff actually take quite a lot of time, so dunno 13:31:39 -!- totem has joined. 13:31:42 fizzie, I did mean IRL. 13:31:52 Phantom_Hoover: Ohhh, right. 13:32:05 there is no "distance through the world" in mc 13:32:23 that would be nicer than the current fixed height tho 13:32:43 Phantom_Hoover: IRL the Earth's circumference is 40 Mm; 40k kilometres. 13:33:19 Mean radius is ~6.5Mm. 13:33:30 *6.3 13:33:39 what do you mean radius 13:33:40 *6.4 13:33:47 Dammit, rounding. 13:34:01 oklopol, the radius? Of the planet? 13:34:08 oklopol: It's the distance from the center to the surface, approximately. 13:34:12 no that was a pun that made no sense 13:34:42 anyway earth's is a mean radius 13:34:52 Ahh. 13:34:58 I completely failed to catch that. 13:35:40 well it doesn't have two parsings 13:35:50 i couldn't think of one that does 13:35:52 `addquote no that was a pun that made no sense 13:36:08 "Earth's is a mean radius" works. 13:36:31 sure 13:36:52 but with that mean-ing of mean, everything technically works 13:37:00 erm, everything with mean radius that is 13:37:24 Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS). 13:37:25 267) no that was a pun that made no sense 13:38:17 ineiros, hey, can we have an unmodified SMP server while we wait for hMod to update? 13:38:33 And a pony! 13:38:49 * Sgeo is in a weird mood today 13:39:06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ 13:39:25 Then again, hMod shouldn't take too long: the github repo has a "NON WORKING beta 1.2 release, DEVELOPERS ONLY" already. 13:39:34 Oh, whoops, I misread that as "NOW WORKING". 13:40:01 Oh well, it's just one more line. 13:40:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:42:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:54:28 -!- Tritonio has joined. 13:56:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:56:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 13:56:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:57:55 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:04:15 -!- j-invariant has joined. 14:05:44 * cheater00 puts oklopol in a simulation of conway's game of DEATH!!#$!$# 14:16:07 -!- __xrott__ has joined. 14:17:33 huh so I have an egg 14:17:43 need to find that sugar cane 14:18:37 and flour I guess 14:18:46 Is it really worth it to make cake? 14:18:54 idk 14:20:50 It's a principle thing, I think: it's cake, after all. 14:20:52 And a new recipe. 14:20:56 why does it say peter griffin :| 14:20:59 All new recipes should be crafted at least once. 14:21:23 Sgeo, yes, actually. 14:21:37 It regenerates a total of 9 hearts and you can stagger it. 14:21:42 "Minecraft Beta 1.2_01 (less bugs, more framerates)" 14:21:46 Well, that didn't take long. 14:21:49 So have a single cake in your shelter, and use it when you get hurt. 14:22:28 "* Added a temporary fix to get rid of chunk visibility errors 14:22:28 The last one is interesting.. The problem with chunk visibility errors was that for some reason the “dirty” flag on chunks and the list of “dirty chunks” got out of synch. There wasn’t time to try to do a proper fix today, so I just made the client check a couple of dirty chunks per frame to make sure they’re in the list. 14:22:28 So until we fix it proper, you might get invisible chunks, but they will fix themselves after a second or two, usually way before you even get close to them." 14:22:38 How very shotgun-codingy. 14:23:12 O, you can't put cake in the hand to use it? 14:23:55 Sgeo, no. 14:24:14 Because you can use it 6 times, which doesn't work with MC's eating system. 14:24:23 That is also why food items don't stack. 14:24:37 I still have the smegging Serenity theme stuck in my head... 14:24:44 I haven't even seen the film! 14:25:00 I haven't even watched Firefly! It's just latched onto my brain and it won't let go! 14:25:03 How is block resistence n/a? 14:25:12 It's a block, isn't it? 14:26:36 The cake? 14:26:51 It can't be picked up, so... 14:26:55 Also, it could be an entity. 14:27:28 Now that charcoal exists, is there a point to regular coal? 14:27:42 <__xrott__> ............... 14:27:45 Also, you know that block resistance measures the damage from TNT? 14:27:52 Phantom_Hoover, vaguely 14:27:57 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 14:28:06 Sgeo, yes, i.e. that it's a lot less resource-intensive to mine coal than to smelt lots of wood. 14:28:32 You'll bump into coal when mining normally anyway. 14:29:05 Hey, turns out that you can make bonemeal into any other dye. 14:30:38 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Client Quit). 14:31:49 "Bone meal is used to make white wool by crafting one Wool block with bone meal above it." 14:31:50 Uhhh 14:33:29 "Sheep can also have their wool dyed by directly using dye (right clicking) on them. When a dyed Sheep is attacked it will drop coloured wool in the same way normal sheep drop their wool. This can be useful because you can obtain multiple coloured wool blocks from a single Sheep, instead of getting just one block from the crafting process." 14:33:34 Now *that*'s amusing. 14:33:56 I'm feel like painting all on-server sheep pink. 14:36:12 -!- __xrott__ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:37:23 fizzie, is the server updated? 14:37:45 great, it isn't :( 14:37:46 err 14:37:47 :) 14:37:48 I meant 14:37:50 No, no. 14:37:51 * Vorpal plays 14:37:55 Just for future reference. 14:40:20 wait do you need a pick to mine coal?? 14:40:30 like if you break the block without you just get nothing? 14:41:44 Yes. 14:42:08 But a wooden pick is good enough. 14:42:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXorGZcsnHo 14:42:42 Mt. Hoover *needs* one of these. 14:43:05 fizzie: I ust wasted two blocks of coal ;_; 14:43:43 Phantom_Hoover: I tried making a farm but if you run too far away the animals disappear 14:43:49 Phantom_Hoover: like even if they are completely trapped 14:44:06 Oh, they must despawn if you venture too far. 14:44:55 Phantom_Hoover: Nice sound. 14:45:38 wow tta's like an arrow cannon why does that work? 14:46:50 Dispenser + clock circuit, isn't that quite simple. 14:48:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw&feature=player_embedded 14:48:16 My god. 14:48:26 I don't understand it 14:48:29 Phantom_Hoover, yes? 14:48:30 is this thing built into the game 14:48:34 fizzie, the trick is getting a very high-speed oscillator. 14:48:38 or is that some kind of unintended consequence 14:48:40 j-invariant, just got added. 14:48:42 Yesterday. 14:49:02 Dispensers eject their contents when they receive a redstone charge. 14:49:24 I can't say I understand redstone oscillators either, but they're well-known things, you can find designs in the web. 14:50:13 Phantom_Hoover: The moment when that video actually scrolls up was very impressive. 14:50:24 Extremely. 14:51:53 I would assume some sort of a trick has been used to fill all those guns with eggs, though. 14:55:29 Yes, natureally. 14:55:32 *naturally 14:56:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:59:56 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:01:40 -!- variable has joined. 15:04:18 * Sgeo is leaving soon 15:04:33 To wait 5 hours to see someone for 1.5 hours :/ 15:05:40 Why not just go in 4 hours? 15:06:10 By waiting, I mean most of the time will be commutting 15:06:12 (I can't think of a suitable Katie A.T. comment here. Submissions are welcomed.) 15:07:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:08:52 Phantom_Hoover, so how many bugs did the new version add? 15:08:54 Something about commuting and the AT-AT walker, maybe. 15:09:14 Sgeo, will you be travelling on a KT-AT, then? 15:09:18 Vorpal, none I noticed. 15:09:21 BA-DUM CHING 15:09:29 OTOH, I didn't do any particularly intensive playing. 15:09:57 Phantom_Hoover, well there is a _01 version 15:10:20 Yeah, but I didn't see any bugs. 15:10:26 Haven't been on SMP as well, though. 15:10:47 oh and they added the bug fixes from optimine it seems 15:10:48 hahah 15:11:09 Phantom_Hoover: The top speed of AT-AT is 60 km/h, maybe you could work that in too somehow. 15:11:13 -!- elliott has joined. 15:11:51 oh and gold tools got a boost, but not when it comes to durability 15:12:35 elliott, I have decided that as soon as the server updates Mt. Hoover must get a repeating double-barrel arrow machine gun. 15:12:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXorGZcsnHo 15:12:51 Phantom_Hoover: I agree, but only if we also get creepers. 15:13:00 Yesyesyes. 15:13:09 I hope we don't get creepers 15:13:22 Perhaps we could do that SMP airbase thing while we wait for hMod to update. 15:13:28 00:12:51 "While the copyright of the play Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J. M. Barrie has expired in the United Kingdom, it was granted a special exception under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (Schedule 6)[33] that requires royalties to be paid for performances within the UK, so long as Great Ormond Street Hospital (to whom Barrie gave the rights) continues to exist." 15:13:36 That is ridiculous. 15:13:39 If Vorpal agrees not to whine about dying. 15:13:47 Vorpal: You have diamond armour and probably more than one diamond sword. 15:13:58 elliott, I do not have diamond armour 15:14:00 As well as an almost-inaccessible-for-mobs, completely-protected castle. 15:14:02 You have literally nothing to fear. 15:14:06 Vorpal: Well, you can trivially get it. 15:14:14 true 15:14:16 Assuming you nabbed diamond from spawn when you could which I find likely. 15:14:17 elliott: Surely that's not recognized in any other country? 15:14:22 Errr 15:14:24 fizzie: That 15:14:29 elliott, but we'll obviously set creepers off everywhere on top of Mt. Vorpal. 15:14:33 Gregor: Presumably. 15:14:52 Gregor: Well, it's only royalties for performances in the UK, not "proper" copyright-as-in-actually-control-the-rights thing. But still. 15:14:55 Gregor: Still, ugh -- can you imagine trying to overturn that? "But what about the children!" (Great Ormond Street is a children's hospital.) 15:15:04 Phantom_Hoover, I read that as that they are turned off 15:15:22 elliott: WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?! 15:15:41 I think children should be banned just so people can't pull that crap. 15:15:49 elliott: So what if a different children's hospital wants to put on a performance of it :P 15:16:06 Gregor: THEY HAVE TO TURN OFF LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS TO RAISE MONEY TO GIVE TO THE EVIL, CORPORATE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL. 15:16:15 WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!?!?!?! 15:16:38 Eh, they'll live so long as their medicinal colon pipes are in place. 15:17:10 Assuming you nabbed diamond from spawn when you could which I find likely. <-- I wish I had... 15:17:17 Not if some paedophile seizes them, Gregor. 15:17:24 Vorpal: Just ask server for diamond, the chest not working is a mere bug. 15:17:30 Vorpal: I'm sure you'd get it. 15:17:44 Bye elliott and all 15:17:58 Bye? 15:17:58 [Well, I might be here a few more minutes. Don't rely on it though] 15:18:01 Oh, Alluded-To. 15:18:01 elliott, still you don't even have somewhere to hide at night. 15:18:12 (Sgeo is off on a 5-hour KT-AT trip.) 15:18:20 5-hour? Dear god. 15:18:29 Phantom_Hoover: When the KT-AT's rocking, you'd better not come a'knocking. 15:18:29 Vorpal: No, but I have enough diamond blocks from spawn to make diamond armour and a sword. 15:18:30 -!- totem has left (?). 15:18:39 Vorpal: And with that you don't _need_ a house. 15:18:47 (Based on the movie, those things seemed pretty wobbly.) 15:18:53 Vorpal: Do you have that locally or have you tried it on a test server? 15:18:56 elliott: I creeper exploded my pyramid :( 15:18:57 No, he said that it was 5 hours for a sum total of half an hour of whatever the hell it is he plans to do. 15:19:00 Vorpal: I have; you kill skeletons in two hits. 15:19:08 elliott, still you don't even have somewhere to hide at night. 15:19:10 Phantom_Hoover: Eh? 15:19:11 j-invariant: :( 15:19:28 Vorpal: Do you have that locally or have you tried it on a test server? <-- tried what? 15:19:33 elliott: 5 hours of travel for 1.5 hours of "action". 15:19:35 He has a share in HHI, and as such can use corporate shelters. 15:19:58 Vorpal: Diamond armour + sword. 15:20:10 fizzie: Couldn't they just use a hotel? 15:20:16 elliott, well I made some just now on ineiros' server 15:20:19 I don't think they need to go to the Australian outback for some privacy. 15:20:49 elliott, with a dad like that, who knows 15:20:59 :-D 15:21:07 They turn around and he's been following them ALL THIS TIME 15:21:13 All the way to Australia 15:21:18 umm 15:21:25 what the hell is going on here 15:21:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:21:32 j-invariant: Sgeo is in Australia 15:21:32 http://i.imgur.com/gVH9s.png 15:21:35 oh 15:21:46 j-invariant: what do you mean? 15:21:52 also lol @ _01, i wonder what notch broke 15:21:54 water comeing from nowhere O_o 15:22:01 Well, he's headed for Australia. 15:22:02 j-invariant: All water comes from nowhere. 15:22:07 j-invariant: It's a water block. 15:22:09 -!- cheater00 has joined. 15:22:13 minecraft does not have conservation of mass 15:22:13 Just like at the edges of pools, say. 15:22:16 And it flows down from there. 15:22:24 j-invariant: All waterfalls are like that. 15:22:30 j-invariant: (only 3 torches?) 15:22:36 >.> we're not doing anything 15:22:43 Bye 15:22:52 Sgeo, it's OK, your dad can't spy on you here. 15:22:58 Or wait, maybe he can. 15:23:03 Phantom_Hoover: "The last one is interesting.. The problem with chunk visibility errors was that for some reason the “dirty” flag on chunks and the list of “dirty chunks” got out of synch. There wasn’t time to try to do a proper fix today, so I just made the client check a couple of dirty chunks per frame to make sure they’re in the list." 15:23:10 Sgeo: [I am watching you. --your dad, proxying] 15:23:14 Sgeo: [xoxo] 15:23:23 Sgeo, we can always kidnap him for a couple of hours. 15:23:33 Phantom_Hoover: So what's the secret useful block? 15:23:34 We'll be more than happy to, in fact. 15:23:44 Dispenser 15:23:46 *. 15:23:47 Yes. And then kill him. 15:23:56 Sshhhh! 15:24:05 We're TRYING to trick Sgeo! 15:24:08 ineiros: UPDATE THE SERVER 15:24:15 is there something interesting in nether? 15:24:47 nooga, lightstone. Slow sand. Netherstone. Ghasts. 15:24:57 ineiros, wait with updating server until hmod is updated (or bukkit is out) 15:24:59 ineiros, :) 15:25:06 It's also usable as hyperspace. 15:25:06 elliott, just use the alternative laucher to play 15:25:09 Vorpal: hMod will never be updated. 15:25:18 elliott, well wait for bukkit then 15:25:26 Vorpal: Bukkit is not going to be stable for a _while_. 15:25:30 They haven't even released a pre-alpha build yet. 15:25:39 There is nothing wrong with the vanilla server, just don't make any big jumps. 15:25:43 It's not like you do anyway, thanks to armour. 15:25:47 elliott, well iirc hmod was going to be upgraded until hmod was out 15:25:55 Vorpal: Allow me to quote. 15:25:56 elliott, if I do that I take armour off. 15:26:01 Although people have already been under the impression that we pledged to keep hMod up to date, this isn't the case. Prior to this announcement, we had not stated anywhere that we would be maintaining hMod and anyone believing otherwise was mistaken. However, we do recognise the predicament we've put server admins in as hey0 has announced that hMod is essentially no more, and Bukkit is not ready for public consumption yet. 15:26:02 [[We will try and update hMod (at least this time)]] — Bukkit devs. 15:26:10 Apparently the Bukkit team are "trying" to update hMod. 15:26:13 But I wouldn't rely on it. 15:26:15 The beta update is _big_. 15:26:21 elliott, yeah. 15:26:28 It will take longer then the original beta update, I would bet. 15:26:34 probably 15:26:35 So I would just use the vanilla server for now. 15:26:46 elliott, just use the alternative launcher 15:26:49 it works perfectly 15:26:56 I've already updated, and I want lapis lazuli. 15:27:02 slow sand? 15:27:05 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:27:13 nooga: *SOUUUUUL sand 15:27:14 elliott, you don't have a backup? Well I could send you my files then 15:27:18 elliott, relevant: bonemeal can be turned into lapis lazuli. 15:27:27 Vorpal: I think you're missing something here: I _want_ to be updated. 15:27:32 Vorpal: What exactly is wrong with the vanilla server? 15:27:38 ineiros used it before and there were no problems. 15:27:41 elliott, no /home or /spawn 15:27:43 Problem: we don't have bonemeal unless monsters are on. 15:27:48 Vorpal: So? 15:27:50 -!- cheater00 has joined. 15:27:53 elliott, also, health is a bugger. 15:27:55 It's not like you can't find Mount Vorpal. 15:28:02 Phantom_Hoover: Less of a bugger than not having the newest version 15:28:15 elliott, not really no. The current version works fine. 15:28:22 but sure, as long as monsters are off. 15:28:53 Current version isn't fine for anyone who's using the latest version in their single-player game 15:29:11 elliott, easy to switch. just an mv 15:29:16 or two rather 15:29:24 elliott, and you always made backup of old version before 15:29:29 so I would assume you have that now too 15:29:35 No, I didn't, because I realise it'll only be useful for a few days. 15:30:10 elliott, well then I can send you my files if you want. 15:30:24 I'd rather ineiros updates :-P 15:30:26 He did last time, so. 15:30:35 elliott, anyway no glass kit, no other kit either if you play without a mod 15:30:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:31:07 It's not like glass is being used much. 15:31:16 And it's not like our tools are going to wear out in the next, uh, 100 years or so. 15:31:29 There is a "non-working" 1.2 hMod in th github, so someone's doing something, at least. 15:31:33 elliott, actually, shovels can wear out surprisingly quickly. 15:31:44 OH NO GRASS WILL TAKE HALF A SECOND TO DIG!!!!!!!!!! 15:31:51 elliott, relevant: bonemeal can be turned into lapis lazuli. <-- how? 15:31:59 Not telling. 15:32:03 SECRET 15:32:06 Phantom_Hoover, there is no mention on the wiki of that 15:32:07 Vorpal: Advantage of latest beta: Coal is completely renewable. 15:32:15 Vorpal: With a tree farm, you can turn 0 coal into 1,000,000 coal. 15:32:23 elliott, yes, that is a minor advantage. 15:32:24 Vorpal: Why? Wood can be smelted into 8 coal. 15:32:26 "Minor"? 15:32:31 Coal is the most useful fucking ore in the game. 15:32:35 You have like 70 furnaces. 15:32:36 elliott, disadvantage: no hmod or bukkit yet 15:32:40 which is way larger 15:32:42 FFS. 15:33:03 Vorpal: ... seriously, how often do you use hMod commands? /home, /spawn, maybe. 15:33:08 Health? You never do anything dangerous anyway. 15:33:09 We have enough iron stocks to offset health considerably anyway. 15:33:17 elliott, /kit too 15:33:29 Vorpal: seriously? 15:33:32 How often do you use that? 15:33:35 There's (1) glass and (2) tools. 15:33:41 elliott, twice the last few hours. Been mining. 15:33:42 You already have tools. Probably backups knowing you. 15:33:55 Mining? Don't you have EVERY ORE EVER? 15:34:16 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:34:19 elliott, mining is also fun. Since I combined it with spelunking 15:34:33 and without spelunking, what is the point of minecraft? 15:34:37 Riiiiiiight. 15:35:42 elliott, and health off is important. 15:36:22 No. It isn't. 15:36:29 You always do things the safest way. You rarely jump far. 15:36:30 elliott, why not 15:36:37 is there a language with a continuous address space? 15:36:38 How on EARTH is health a problem for you? 15:36:44 elliott, never wondered why I had no armour the last few weeks? 15:36:47 elliott, because it broke 15:36:47 e.g. floating-point pointers 15:36:53 Vorpal: By doing what? 15:37:01 elliott, spelunking 15:37:15 Vorpal: How did you lose health? 15:37:30 elliott, fall damage mostly 15:37:36 Vorpal, given the health regenerates and armour doesn't, it's not too big a deal. 15:37:42 Vorpal: Are you too stupid to see what's right ahead of you?? 15:37:49 Just don't jump down 20-metre drops and you'll be fine. 15:37:49 Vorpal: But yeah, as Phantom_Hoover said, health regenerate. 15:37:51 *regenerates. 15:37:52 Quickly. 15:37:57 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:37:58 I doubt you could die without being incredibly wilfully stupid. 15:38:00 elliott, only if monsters are off though 15:38:07 Vorpal: Uhh, you think ineiros is going to turn monsters on? 15:38:09 Are you on crack? 15:38:25 "Oh, I was going to wait for hMod, BUT INSTEAD I TURNED MONSTERS AND PVP ON AND THEN DESTROYED YOUR HOUSE, ENJOY." 15:38:25 elliott, who knows. Has he been near alcohol? 15:38:39 Ah, right, I forgot, alcohol turns people into abject morons in Vorpal-land. 15:38:48 No exceptions. 15:38:52 elliott, well remember hell world? 15:39:08 Note how that had no lasting effects and did not take place in the actual world. 15:39:13 Note how it happened only because of lots of invalid moving going on. 15:39:18 Note how you're making no sense whatsoever. 15:39:19 elliott, true 15:39:26 I am making sense 15:39:29 -!- hiato has joined. 15:40:16 cheater00: Someone on comp.lang.c seriously suggested extending C so that floats can be used as array indices to access individual bits of the bytes. 15:40:47 fizzie: i was more thinking about arbitrary-precision definitions of data 15:40:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 15:40:51 fizzie: :-D 15:40:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:40:55 fractals or continuous functions 15:41:02 fizzie, makes sense. 15:41:03 but i can see how floats would be fun there :D 15:41:04 cheater00: the Infinity Machine has infinite-sequence-of-bits addressed memory. 15:41:06 Which is equivalent. 15:41:13 http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html 15:41:23 elliott: welllllll 15:41:32 An infinite sequence of bits is the same as a real. 15:41:37 elliott: the practical side of things will probably be very different. 15:41:39 Don't disagree with that, because you'll be wrong. 15:41:45 cheater00: This is not practical in any way, shape, or form. 15:43:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:45:16 good 15:45:19 that's the way i like it. 15:45:59 i'm installing half of windows on my ubuntu right now. meh 15:46:14 why does everyone use windows? 15:46:19 i don't know 15:46:19 I always thought it was rubbish so I never bothered 15:46:21 yea 15:46:28 but i want to run fallout 2 15:46:33 and this means i need to run winetricks 15:46:34 j-invariant, join the club! 15:46:41 The answer is market dominance. 15:46:47 AKA capitalism doesn't actually work. 15:46:50 I used to use Mac OS but I don't like apple any more 15:46:51 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:47:20 I think apple used to be a good company but they have rotted and now they push DRM etc etc 15:47:24 j-invariant: i hate apple, just bought an apple machine, and don't use mac os on it 15:47:29 * elliott CRAAAAAZY 15:47:42 yeah I couldn't install any GNU/Linux system of my mac 15:48:05 elliott: YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT 15:48:07 well I could but it didn't work perfectly 15:48:25 *GNU/Linux/X.org/util-linux-ng/cron/... 15:48:37 whats X.org lol 15:48:46 what's Linux 15:48:48 The providers of the X11 server. The term GNU/Linux is frankly offensive. 15:49:00 is that a kernel for the GNU operating system? 15:49:05 Linux is a made up operating system from the hit TV series "The IT Crowd" 15:49:05 No, GNU did _not_ provide all the software required to run this Linux machine. 15:49:17 They don't get the right to the name just because they wrote the coreutils. 15:49:22 j-invariant: oh. 15:49:44 elliott: got any citation on this? 15:49:51 j-invariant: Citation for what exactly? 15:50:01 elliott: that GNU/Linux is offensive 15:50:03 elliott: for the fact that GNU did not make ALL of Linux 15:50:07 j-invariant, actually look up who wrote the software? 15:50:10 j-invariant: That's a personal, subjective opinion. 15:50:16 j-invariant: How am I supposed to provide a citation for it? 15:50:26 elliott: [E. Hird] 15:50:34 If you use non-GNU software integrally to your OS, "GNU/Linux" is inaccurate. 15:50:57 Phantom_Hoover: what about GNU+Linux? 15:50:59 "Linux" is more acceptable since it is almost universally used as a generic term for a Linux-based operating system; "the Linux kernel" is more commonly used to refer to the kernel itself. 15:51:17 "GNU/Linux" manages, by omission, to disregard all the other important parties who wrote software to make a modern Linux OS work fully. 15:51:24 rms enjoys overstating GNU's efforts. 15:51:25 since Linux :|: GNU != {} 15:51:26 i think Linux omits them too 15:51:41 j-invariant: As I said: Linux is used as a generic name to refer to a Linux-based operating system. 15:51:52 j-invariant: "GNU/Linux" is explicitly defined, and exclusively used, as referring to Linux as a kernel. 15:51:56 j-invariant, you still haven't demonstrated that you aren't English and as such should not be ignored, BtW. 15:52:02 Therefore, "GNU/Linux" disregards more efforts than "Linux". 15:52:11 And also puts GNU in an unwarranted position of importance. 15:52:27 what other kernels does GNU have? 15:52:32 HUUUUURD 15:52:38 And, uh, kFreeBSD if you use Debian :-P 15:52:48 Except that uses BSD libc I think. Or does it? I don't know. Maybe not. 15:52:54 I think not actually. 15:53:01 Elliott HUUUUURD 15:53:21 kElliottBSD 15:53:30 and Liott 15:53:42 the three kernels of the ELLIOTT operating system. 15:53:50 @'s kernel is @. 15:53:50 Maybe you meant: . ? @ ask bf do ft id msg pl rc v wn 15:53:57 Fuck off, lambdabot. 15:54:15 are there any kernels being developed for lambda machines? 15:54:19 ^bf-txtgen floople 15:54:28 "lambda machines"? 15:54:32 Phantom_Hoover: fail 15:54:32 ^help 15:54:32 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 15:54:37 lisp machines! 15:54:38 that is. 15:54:44 !bf_txtgen rambunctiability 15:54:55 cheater00: Uh, Genera is still sold but not maintained. 15:55:03 I thought it was fungot for some reason... 15:55:03 Phantom_Hoover: when, in such a fun thing! just foaming at the 15:55:18 doesn't the GNU operating system (emacs) work on lisp machines? 15:56:10 cheater00: Symbolics machines came with Zmacs. 15:56:21 136 ++++++++++++++[>+>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>-.<<-----.>.<++++++++.-------.>+.<++++++.>++++++.>.+.+++++++.+++.<.<.+++++.<----. [700] 15:56:23 cheater00: Well, and all other Lisp Machines. 15:56:28 "Zmacs was written for the MIT Lisp machine and runs on its descendants (Symbolics Genera, LMI Lambda, TI Explorer). Zmacs is written in Lisp Machine Lisp (called ZetaLisp on Symbolics Lisp Machines)." 15:57:15 @bf ++++++++++++++[>+>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>-.<<-----.>.<++++++++.-------.>+.<++++++.>++++++.>.+.+++++++.+++.<.<.+++++.<----. 15:57:15 rambunctiability 15:57:47 i can hear a lot of teen girls outside my door 15:57:52 i'm gonna go check it out 15:58:04 !bf_txtgen On Thinkable Forms, with notes towards a Logical Imaging Technique 15:58:08 653 ++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++++>+++<<<<-]>-----.>++.>>----.<<<+++++.++++++++++++++++++++.+.>.---.<--------.+.>+.<+++.>>>.<--.<<++++++++++.+++.>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>++++++++++++.------------.<++++.<---.>---.<-.>>.<<<----.+.>>.<---.>-.>.<+.-----.++++++++.<----.<+++.>+++.>----.>.<<---.>>.<<---------------------.>----.<<-----------.++.------.--.>>---.>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 15:58:13 phail 16:00:05 wait 16:00:16 i should generate a new world after update 16:00:27 to mine new blocks, right? 16:00:41 or just move around to generate new chunks? 16:01:18 nooga: just move around 16:01:33 nooga: you may want to use a mapping tool to find where the nearest unloaded part is 16:02:21 fizzie: "Oh look, flight in Beta." http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=131336&sid=9ad025becbbe3a02f18bb7fa340b6670 16:02:24 fizzie: Bat -- out of the cag. 16:03:25 Phantom_Hoover: ^ 16:06:42 cheater00 is not back 16:07:00 he is now 16:07:11 oh i thought the girls 16:07:12 teen girls in pantyhose = win 16:07:12 nvm 16:07:27 what were they doing there? 16:07:34 they're there every day all day 16:07:45 i live in a big house that has two ballrooms 16:07:54 since monday they're being used for a ballet school 16:08:03 oh 16:08:15 the teacher is all like "hey wanna join the classez" 16:08:43 and i'm mostly like "i'll have to see which group i like most" 16:08:43 :x 16:10:40 elliott: You know what really really irritates me 16:10:52 j-invariant: No, no I don't 16:11:02 when people say "yes, yes it is" or whatever 16:11:11 why does it repeat the word? 16:11:12 But. I say that 16:11:13 yes, yes it's irritating 16:11:27 It's for emphasis, welcome to language :P 16:12:08 you mean "I'm not _not_ sad" doesn't mean exactly that you're sad?? 16:12:15 damn 16:16:51 What we say is that you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit. The principal developer is the GNU Project, and the system is basically GNU. 16:16:54 If you feel even more strongly about giving credit where it is due, you might feel that some secondary contributors also deserve credit in the system's name. If so, far be it from us to argue against it. If you feel that X11 deserves credit in the system's name, and you want to call the system GNU/X11/Linux, please do. If you feel that Perl simply cries out for mention, and you want to write GNU/Linux/Perl, go ahead. 16:17:00 Since a long name such as GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv becomes absurd, at some point you will have to set a threshold and omit the names of the many other secondary contributions. There is no one obvious right place to set the threshold, so wherever you set it, we won't argue against it. 16:17:05 Different threshold levels would lead to different choices of name for the system. But one name that cannot result from concerns of fairness and giving credit, not for any possible threshold level, is “Linux”. It can't be fair to give all the credit to one secondary contribution (Linux) while omitting the principal contribution (GNU). 16:18:10 j-invariant: GNU is not the principal contributor to Linux. 16:18:13 That is mere propaganda. 16:18:20 really? 16:18:31 Additionally "Linux" as a name does NOT refer to the kernel, it refers to the kernel PLUS all the additional software. That is how the terminology has evolved. 16:18:41 Claiming otherwise is dishonest. 16:19:02 how is that propaganda 16:19:43 j-invariant: Because it distorts the facts in a way that makes GNU look more important than they are, to serve something GNU wants (for people to call it GNU/Linux). 16:21:02 what facts 16:21:16 j-invariant, "GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv" <-- interesting product 16:21:31 * Vorpal tries to figure out what combining perl, tex and python would do 16:21:33 j-invariant: For instance "GNU is the principal contributor to a full Linux-based system" is incorrect. 16:21:50 Linus is? 16:21:54 j-invariant: No? 16:21:58 what the 16:22:00 (yeah yeah, not meant like that) 16:22:00 what then 16:22:06 There is no one principal contributor. 16:22:15 In 2008, we found that GNU packages made up 15% of the “main” repository of the gNewSense GNU/Linux distribution. Linux made up 1.5%. So the same argument would apply even more strongly to calling it “Linux”. 16:22:26 j-invariant: Package count is irrelevant. 16:22:45 j-invariant: gNewSense is a biased source; it is a GNU project that refuses to package software the FSF doesn't consider a suitable part of a Free system, this includes Firefox. 16:22:53 They instead package a GNU fork of Firefox, artificially inflating the GNU count here. etc. 16:23:01 j-invariant, Linux deserves a mention. It is the kernel after all. Same goes for any other kernel. 16:23:17 If Ubuntu replaced the GNU coreutils with a fully-featured BusyBox tomorrow, yes, the system would be different, but the essential use of the system for 90% of its users would be very, very similar. 16:23:21 at least more than the userland does 16:23:29 Debian and Ubuntu already use a non-GNU C library -- eglibc, a fork of the GNU libc. 16:23:30 elliott: that's a good point 16:23:43 Even then, they could use a fully-featured uClibc and the system would still be very similar. 16:23:48 Not the same, but similar. 16:23:55 j-invariant: Heck, for most users of Ubuntu, the main contributor is GNOME. 16:23:58 how do you know bout eglibc etc :D 16:24:01 That is a GNU project, yes. 16:24:01 I never heard of these 16:24:02 elliott, actually I would react, mostly because much of my .bashrc would be broken :P 16:24:03 But consider KDE users. 16:24:09 j-invariant: I have a dormant distribution project. 16:24:16 what's that? 16:24:18 Vorpal: I said similar for most users. 16:24:21 j-invariant: What's... KDE? 16:24:29 Is that the question you are actually asking...? 16:24:41 "dormat distribution project 16:24:46 Oh. 16:24:48 *dormant :P 16:24:52 elliott, yeah I could survive. Might patch busybox grep to add --colour=auto or such. And a few small things like that 16:24:53 It's called Kitten. 16:24:57 ahh 16:24:59 cool 16:25:12 Notably it gives me good grounds to claim that GNU is not an essential part of Linux systems; I (was going to) use uClibc and BusyBox. 16:25:27 hehe 16:25:36 Leaving the main GNU software being, uh, the core compilation tools (binutils and gcc), and Emacs. 16:25:52 If you're a vi fan and use clang, that's reduced to just binutils. 16:26:09 elliott, btw do you know any better way than temporarily changing the /bin/sh symlink to bash from dash when a build system refuses to work with dash as /bin/sh. In this case it was some sub-configure of older binutils that I needed to a cross tolchain (no support for that target in recent binutils) 16:26:23 Vorpal: Gregor has the solution to that. 16:26:25 SPS! 16:26:26 or was it a sub-configure of old gcc? hm. One of them 16:26:45 Let's see, what would the syntax be... 16:26:51 elliott, well, something that works with minimal work. Something that is easier than sudo -s and changing the symlink around 16:27:00 elliott, like setting an env variable or something 16:27:01 Vorpal: $ sps with 'sh == bash' -- ./configure 16:27:12 Assuming == is the syntax for setting the selected metapackage or whatever. 16:27:23 elliott, takes more work since I would need to install that and so on. 16:27:34 Vorpal: "How can I solve this problem without changing anything?" You can't. 16:28:00 elliott, well I had a vague memory that make had some MAKE_SHELL_TO_BE_USED env var. 16:28:04 (with some other name) 16:28:10 Vorpal: How about $ find . | xargs sed -i 's,/bin/sh,bash,g' 16:28:23 Also, confgure isn't make. 16:28:36 elliott, yep, but I was hoping it had something similar 16:28:49 elliott, you know, it has CC, LD, and what not 16:28:52 so why not I thought 16:28:56 You mean like: 16:29:03 #!/bin/sh 16:29:20 if ! [ "x$SH" = "x" ]; then 16:29:27 elliott, well the issue here was that it was in a subconfigure. And also I think inside a statement using sh -c or similar 16:29:34 if ! [ "$SH" = "/bin/sh" ]; then 16:29:40 $SH "$0" 16:29:43 exit 16:29:43 elliott, hah :P 16:29:44 fi 16:29:44 fi 16:29:45 :P 16:29:57 (Verbosity added due to configure working on ANY SYSTEM YOU WANT, so long as it's GNU.) 16:30:16 elliott, well just doing bash ./configure would work EXCEPT that it was one of the damn recursive configures that was invoked after you run make 16:30:25 Throw it out and write your own program. 16:30:37 Vorpal: Oh wow, with that SH thing, you could do 16:30:41 SH=cat ./configure 16:30:46 GENIUS 16:30:47 elliott, for older gcc you did a cross toolchain by cd gcc-source && ln -s ../binutils-source/foo 16:30:50 that kind of stuff 16:30:53 ^^^ GENIUS 16:31:23 elliott, and then you built gcc and binutils together at once 16:32:39 elliott, I had to patch gcc configure since it grepped configure.ac of binutils for the version of it, and depended on a specific whitespace length for indentation. Which was no longer the case. 16:32:48 elliott, gnu buildsystem eh? 16:32:52 build system* 16:33:06 But don't you know, it's _portable_. 16:33:13 elliott, except not between versions 16:33:19 Or anything. 16:36:22 -!- Zuu has joined. 16:36:26 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 16:36:26 -!- Zuu has joined. 16:39:01 -!- doraemon___ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 16:39:03 Phantom_Hoover: Get that APT developer over here to tell me how to write cabal2deb. 16:40:43 elliott, over here, why not go to where that guy is 16:41:06 He's in Edinburgh. 16:41:14 Also ostensibly minorly incompetent. 16:42:18 elliott, he hates functional programming. 16:42:29 Strike ostensibly, minorly, insert incredibly. 16:49:37 -!- Tritonio has joined. 16:49:40 He decided to learn C and C++ over Haskell and Lisp. 16:50:28 (And probably failed Higher maths, which is an exercise in stupidity.) 16:51:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 16:52:24 Sgeo, still on your KT-AT trip? 16:53:11 It wont take as long as I thought to get there, or to wait once I'm there. I miscounted 16:53:29 Exactly what is this journey you're making? 16:54:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:54:38 A detour around a train station my dad said was unsafe 16:54:43 L O L 16:54:53 I have no words left. 16:54:58 Also, me preferring tl be an hour early than a little late 16:55:20 SgeoN1, that offer of kidnapping is still valid. 16:55:32 In fact, you will have to pay me not to go through with it. 16:56:11 It would have only saved 20 min or so to use that route, and due to my wish to be early I would have left the house at the same time 16:56:58 There's this film noir mafia train station in my head and I love it. 16:59:00 There better be a place to sit 16:59:36 Going to save battery. Bye. 16:59:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 17:00:03 "Don't go through that station, Seth. THERE MIGHT NOT BE A PLACE TO SIT" 17:00:16 If this conversation did not take place someone will die. 17:00:58 elliott, oh, best part of Incompetent APT Guy: despite having evidently no aptitude for mathematics whatsoever, he wants to do CS at university 17:01:18 ??? 17:01:38 today, CS is for people who "can't do math" 17:01:41 Seth... that station be grue territory. Don't go/ 17:01:42 *go. 17:01:46 (it shouldn't be though) 17:02:35 j-invariant: there are good CS curricula out there ... but ... 17:02:46 it's rare 17:03:23 i suspect scotland of holding them hostage from the rest of the world 17:03:35 hah 17:03:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:04:35 oxford apparently uses Haskell and Oberon for first-years, which is an... interesting combination 17:05:48 i suspect scotland of holding them hostage from the rest of the world ← hm? 17:05:59 Phantom_Hoover: Think Epigram. 17:06:08 Ah, yes. 17:06:17 You're so inferior to me. 17:06:31 Indeed. Perhaps I shall step in front of a train. 17:06:50 What, someone actually uses csh. 17:07:03 Astonishing. 17:07:51 j-invariant, it's not just that he can't do maths, he's doing Higher /again/. 17:08:03 repeating because he was not good at it? 17:08:05 Meanwhile: "Gnus is an awesome mail and news reader, but it can be a bit of a performance bear, especially when using IMAP. Since Emacs is single-threaded, IMAP operations that take too long can disconnect you from IRC, Jabber, or any number of other network services you also use from Emacs." 17:08:09 This implies he either failed or got an abysmal mark when he first did it. 17:08:11 wait I don't even know who you are talking about 17:09:28 j-invariant, just so you know, Higher maths goes no further than basic calculus. 17:09:44 who is it 17:09:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:09:54 hi ais523 17:09:59 i was just thinking about scapegoat actually 17:10:12 elliott: ... Emacs is single-threaded? Wow. It's even more of a hack than I thought. 17:10:19 j-invariant, a guy at my school who is an APT developer or somesuch. 17:10:19 pikhq: You didn't know that? 17:10:31 Phantom_Hoover: I'm fairly sure he hasn't actually submitted any code for apt. 17:10:32 oh apt 17:10:43 elliott, yes, probably. 17:10:46 if he hacks on some serious software he probably has some ability 17:11:04 I would put not being skilled at mathematics down to the low quality of mathematics education in general 17:11:11 I don't know of any decent code he's done. 17:11:12 j-invariant: As I said, he doesn't actually code apt. 17:11:17 He just creates deb packages. 17:11:24 Seemingly limited to applying other people's debdiffs. 17:11:27 teach him to program 17:11:28 At least that's what I could find. 17:11:41 j-invariant: seriously? 17:11:51 That would likely be living hell and Phantom_Hoover has other things he has to do. 17:12:24 He is also doing Advanced Higher computing, which, given my understanding of the SQA computing curricula, is probably just going to make him even worse at coding. 17:12:40 * Phantom_Hoover despairs at the world. 17:13:17 Well. I suppose they do actually run on DOS still. 17:13:27 I was deleting the "higher mathematics" to leave "curriculum" in Google, then started typing "advanced" at the start... and it came up with "advanced kindergarten curriculum". 17:13:34 Advanced. Kindergarten. 17:13:35 :D 17:13:45 ais523: can I ask you a scapegoat question? 17:13:56 Phantom_Hoover: Fingerpainting and quantum physics! 17:14:08 ANYWAY, need to see the AH computing curriculum to see if it's contempt-worthy. 17:14:24 * Phantom_Hoover forgets why he uses Firefox, switches to Chrome. 17:15:17 17:14 * Phantom_Hoover despairs at the world. 17:15:19 teach him to program 17:15:23 j-invariant: why 17:15:36 fix things 17:16:07 j-invariant, what can I do? I never exactly learned to program in any well-defined way myself. 17:16:22 j-invariant: what 17:16:50 Phantom_Hoover: you could learn some things from books 17:17:40 j-invariant: why? 17:17:50 why what 17:17:57 j-invariant: why should he teach him how to program 17:18:00 So, SCEA v. George Hotz et al. is currently having a hearing regarding SCEA's motion for a temporary restraining order... 17:18:04 to help both of them 17:18:06 Wonder how that's going down. 17:18:12 why do you believe he wants to be taught, he believes he can program already i gather 17:18:14 j-invariant, not too interested. 17:18:16 j-invariant: how would it help Phantom_Hoover 17:18:23 he probably doesn't want to 17:18:26 I could always just chuck SICP at him and hope it sticks. 17:18:27 j-invariant: how would it help Phantom_Hoover? 17:18:28 but it might be 17:18:42 elliott: it is useful tot each things 17:18:56 j-invariant: I think Phantom_Hoover is competent enough already 17:19:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:20:13 Formal education in programming is, frankly, not helpful until you've got a general idea how it all works *anyways*... 17:20:15 elliott: that's daft, you can always learn more 17:20:29 elliott: go for it 17:20:34 j-invariant: not by teaching someone who already thinks he can program and has Strong Opinions that are wrong 17:20:44 elliott: okay 17:20:46 how to program is a silly subject. algorithms and proofs thereof is where it's at, man 17:20:47 And heck, even formal "intro to programming" classes understand that. They pretty much go as far as "I want you to program this." 17:21:08 ais523: when you append a file to a directory, you also put the objects (StartOfFile ) and (EndOfFile ) in the database, right? 17:21:12 near-guaranteed way to spot spam #n+1: the body of the email asks you to contact an email address, claiming it's the author's, but which doesn't match the from or reply-to fields 17:21:20 quintopia: Well, yes, that's something that goes a bit beyond just "Here's the *bare basics*, now write some shit." 17:21:22 elliott: yes 17:21:30 ais523: right 17:21:31 so you have something to reference when you add to the file 17:21:32 ais523: that could happen if someone changed their email address though 17:21:50 j-invariant: hmm, I should add "without any indication of why that should be" 17:22:00 ais523: I'm trying to implement all the basic change algorithms in Haskell now, as pure as possible, but I'm having trouble doing ordered vs. unordered change structures elegantly 17:22:06 ais523: most of the algorithms on them are the same, but they share basically no members 17:22:24 that's interesting, but maybe not so surprising 17:22:32 pikhq: i think of "programming" as translating proven ideas into established languages. and therefore, yes, it is the easy part :P 17:22:48 ais523: right now I'm considering just having SOF/EOF, the model being that there's only one file in this pure implementation :-) 17:22:59 Programming is a craft. 17:23:01 that might be a good start 17:23:22 Like other crafts, the way to learn it is to just do it a lot. 17:23:26 pikhq: yeah i can see that 17:23:42 i don't agree pikhq 17:23:56 the only reason it is a craft is because we don't properly understand it yet 17:24:11 well I do agree, it is a craft 17:24:14 but I would like to change that 17:24:23 what would you change it to 17:24:34 ais523: hmm, how would you grep a file for two things? 17:24:46 ais523: i.e., i want to filter the results of a grep by only showing the files that /also/ match another grep on that file 17:25:04 quintopia: something based on a foundation. e.g. bridge building today is quite sensible, we know which ones stay up and which fall down 17:25:23 quintopia: but in the past we could not build such a variety of interesting bridges because only a very small number were known to stay up 17:25:44 quintopia: I think programming will be similar: We should learn structural properties of large csale programming that "stay up" 17:26:14 j-invariant: We know *precisely* how to do large scale programming "right". 17:26:24 that's being done to i think. that is called software engineering i ween, and some places teach it better than others. 17:26:26 We do? 17:26:38 of course, it's nowhere near the level of bridge-building yet 17:26:39 pikhq: huh? :) 17:26:44 elliott: Well, "right" to the extent that we can create bug-free programs. 17:26:48 pikhq, then why does noöne *do* it right? 17:26:52 because bridge-building fundamentals are more standardized 17:26:54 quintopia: software engineering is code for "code monkey training" 17:26:57 pikhq: I want to make a bug free program :( 17:26:57 pikhq: We can? 17:26:58 It's obnoxiously expensive! 17:27:07 pikhq: You mean the NASA model? 17:27:09 elliott: sadly, yes, in most places it is 17:27:09 No, that is not it. 17:27:20 It is _not_ a fundamentally hard task, I don't think. 17:27:21 Take bridges. 17:27:22 elliott: Well. Yes, I mean the NASA model. 17:27:32 elliott, wait, I thought Sgeo was doing SE-but-stupider? 17:27:35 Poor bastard... 17:27:38 Is creating each bridge an immensely difficult effort that goes under intense, INTENSE scrutiny, where the architect has little freedom because IT MUST WORK? 17:27:45 Not *really*. 17:27:53 Bridges are made all the time with not much fuss at all. 17:27:58 the NASA model is very interesting but I don't suppose it's necessary to work that way 17:28:00 And they stay up. 17:28:11 Currently it may well be the best, but in future there could be a "cheaper" way 17:28:20 elliott: galloping gertie aside, of course 17:28:23 elliott: how would you grep a file for two things? <-- grep -l | xargs grep 17:28:30 elliott: is that a multiline grep? 17:28:39 cheater00: well, sort of. 17:28:42 ais523: thanks 17:28:51 what elliott asked for was grepping only files that matched another grep 17:28:59 Anyways, a large part of the problem we see with common programs is that they are written in languages that make it *trivial* to introduce bugs. 17:29:01 and that's what xargs is for, pretty much 17:29:06 I feel at this point that I should point out that bridges are vastly easier to reason about than your average program. 17:29:11 And even very dangerous bugs. 17:29:16 pikhq: yeah. That's insane, it's mad that people still use e.g. PHP 17:29:21 obviously I've left a bunch of stuff out of the command line, but elliott's easily intelligent enough to infer it emself 17:29:22 pikhq: I just cannot understand that one bit 17:29:24 Off-by-one error in C? Bam, you're fucked. 17:29:47 pikhq: not many languages make it easy to avoid bugs 17:29:50 j-invariant, I think he's thinking more of C and other languages which are stupidly low-level but are ubiquitous because programmers are, by and large, idiots. 17:30:04 ais523: wtf, i seem to be unable to find my pastie of my scapegoat algo :D 17:30:08 maybe i never pasted it 17:30:10 ais523: Yes, but some languages make it easy to hit horrifyingly dangerous bugs. 17:30:11 arguably, Java was designed like that, but it doesn't actually help because throwing an exception and doing nothing about it is not much better than simply crashing 17:30:27 pikhq: where "horrifingly dangerous" = security bug? data loss bug 17:30:28 > 17:30:40 s/\n>/?/ 17:30:44 Think "buffer overflows". 17:30:44 ais523, buffer overflow bug? 17:30:48 So, yeah, security bug. 17:30:58 buffer overflows are just one sort of security bug 17:31:13 arghghghgh 17:31:15 Yes, it's just an example of one that low-level languages make really easy to hit. 17:31:16 where is ftp_proxy being set 17:31:18 ais523, and they're by far the easiest to introduce. 17:31:27 why is linux so conniving 17:31:28 I'm not even sure they're the most common, exploitable dangling/NULL pointers seem around as common 17:31:30 um...what sort of people don't do something useful with caught exceptions? (tbh, i don't like the way java does exceptions, but i don't like people who ignore errors even more) 17:31:33 alhtough they're a bit harder to exploit 17:31:45 this env variable isn't in any scripts that i know of! 17:31:57 quintopia: people who just squash the error message, or log it, or whatever, or throw it right out of the program 17:32:01 A buffer overflow can also just cause very unpredictable behavior. 17:32:04 in fact, I hardly ever see exceptions handled sensibly 17:32:16 ais523: yes, i meant, what is those people's IQ level? 17:32:18 At least a crash in a Java program does just that: it stops working. 17:32:35 elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/esotericlogs$ grep 'elliott>.*http://sprunge' 10* | sed 's/.*http/http/g;s,us/\(\w*\).*,us/\1,g' | while read url; do echo "$url: $(curl -s $url | head -n 1)"; done 17:32:36 quintopia: probably quite high, programmers tend to be more intelligent than average, I imagine 17:32:37 ais523: am i insane? 17:32:41 it's not a case of stupidity, it's a case of not caring 17:32:50 elliott: I don't think so 17:33:10 Whereas in C, you could hypothetically have the program start formatting the hard drive while whistling, because the programmer forgot to check the size of a buffer. 17:33:12 incidentally, I'm wondering how easy that operation would be in Windows, I doubt it would be a one-liner... 17:33:55 pikhq: there was a thread on comp.lang.c where they asked people what the worst undefined behaviour behaviour was that they'd ever seen in practice 17:34:07 http://sprunge.us/gZDO 17:34:08 found it 17:34:09 someone had a buffer overflow jump to the "are you sure?" of the format routine, which happened to be in RAM at the time 17:34:23 lol 17:34:27 and said they thought themselves lucky that it didn't jump to just after the check 17:34:28 wow! 17:34:37 j-invariant: ? 17:34:37 (it may well have tried to format a nonexistent drive, though) 17:34:52 ais523: Yeah, that's positively frightening. 17:35:02 No MMU in that computer? 17:35:13 Ilari: Probably DOS. 17:35:17 ais523: i just want to make sure you realise that applying changes in scapegoat involves a potentially expensive topographic sort 17:35:22 Ilari: they didn't say it was DOS, but that was implied 17:35:30 elliott: yep, that seems plausible 17:35:42 I'm one for semantics first, efficiency second, in most cases 17:35:43 ais523: because, you have to figure out the order to apply it in to avoid fake conflicts 17:35:46 because most things can be optimised 17:35:55 ais523: oh, in my opinion this is a great achievement 17:36:00 ais523: you know why? 17:36:04 why? 17:36:11 ais523: previously, it was thought that a version control system being slower than darcs 1 was a logical impossibility 17:36:15 but we will prove them wrong 17:36:18 haha 17:36:55 elliott, darcs 1? what is the current version of it? 17:37:01 Vorpal: 2 17:37:02 I think it optimises pretty well, actually; you can cache tsorts 17:37:07 they solved a major inefficiency 17:37:10 elliott, ah 17:37:25 elliott: to be precise, 1 and 2 have a similar average case (although I think it's faster), but 1 had a completely insane worst case 17:37:32 which was hit in practice fairly often 17:38:26 ais523: here is what inspired me to resume implementing scapegoat, by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGmwA5yBn0 17:38:38 ais523: I figured I should get to the point where I can make a video with an EVEN BETTER commit tree. 17:39:17 There is so much resistance to the improvement of programming 17:39:42 j-invariant: ? 17:39:52 ais523: don't you also observe that? 17:40:04 juts look at blog posts or reddit or anything like that 17:40:32 I mean, you may be correct, but your statement's too vague for me to be sure of what it means 17:42:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:43:05 this channel's definition of "improvement of programming" may be quite different from many others'... 17:44:40 ais523: that video, incidentally, makes me dislike git 17:44:42 heh *cackle* 17:44:50 I didn't quite realise the implications of its rather basic model 17:45:56 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:46:13 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:46:20 pikhq: I improved on your lambdas in C, but completing the implementation requires some cpp hackery that I'm not good enough to do. 17:46:22 elliott, wait, you started disliking git heh 17:46:23 elliott, I'm actually interested in how Scapegoat works now. 17:46:27 I'm going to watch that video 17:46:39 Vorpal: Well it's still what I'd use in practice if not darcs, but scapegoat is better. 17:47:05 Phantom_Hoover: hmm, I'm happy to explain it but ask ais523 first; if he wants me to I will, but he gets the first opportunity 17:47:16 ais523, do you want to explain? 17:47:19 you'd better, I'm currently angry (at something unrelated to this channel) 17:47:36 variable: do you still think it's hard to combine haskell's IO with the functional parts? (my impression is: it depends on how interactive your IO is) 17:47:38 ais523: More NetBeans students? 17:47:46 elliott, darcs is quite decent is isn't it? A bit weird and long names for the commands, but the same applies to git ("git st"? nope, "git status", sure sure tab complete, but even so there are more than one thing that tab complete on git st) 17:48:05 elliott: surprisingly, no 17:48:08 Vorpal: That latter is such a minor complaint that I can't even comprehend it. 17:48:11 Vorpal: (About git) 17:48:14 oerjan: oen thing that sucks is taking a pure code and moving it into a monad... Then again the oenly reason it's such a pain to do is because it /could/ be automated 17:48:28 elliott, well no it isn't a major issue. Just convenience of short commands 17:48:34 darcs tab-completes just fine on Debian/Ubuntu 17:48:38 Darcs is alright, yes. 17:49:16 I'm using a mixture of darcs and git for things nowadays; git when I have to collaborate with someone else a lot, darcs for personal things 17:49:22 j-invariant: well turning pure code into monadic requires making a decision about order of actions, which might not be relevant for the pure version 17:49:35 (and git for collaboration with others only because it's more popular so it's easier to persuade them to use it) 17:49:47 Phantom_Hoover: OK, so, do you know the basics of how git and darcs work? 17:49:59 Revisions and stuff? 17:50:08 (as i see it that's the same problem as with the interactivity) 17:50:14 Phantom_Hoover: that's an incredibly bad description 17:50:18 Phantom_Hoover: err, i can't really explain it then if you don't know the basic model of those two 17:50:20 and how they differ 17:50:20 sorry 17:50:20 as it applies only vaguely to git, and not really to darcs at all 17:50:47 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:50:51 (although it is possible to find something corresponding to a revision in darcs, say to port a darcs repo to a different VCS; it's a snapshot of the code as it was at a given time) 17:52:07 elliott, I've never needed a VCS! 17:52:18 I never bothered learning what the hell they did! 17:52:25 Phantom_Hoover: Then I cannot explain scapegoat to you, and nor can anyone else really. 17:52:30 (Well, other than control revisions.) 17:52:56 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 17:53:53 elliott: hmm, I think I really "get" git now, it's a bit like C in a way, you do everything by hand 17:54:11 ais523: what horrifies me is git-rebase 17:54:19 elliott, any recommended reading, then? 17:54:22 ais523: and the fact that people actually use it -- regularly 17:54:22 elliott: it horrifies me too, although probably not for the same reason 17:54:28 Phantom_Hoover: not really, I don't know what's good to read 17:54:36 hey, I use it regularly when I use git 17:54:36 ais523: my reason is that THAT SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED EVER 17:54:45 because it doesn't really work otherwise 17:54:48 ais523: use it regularly and *recommend it as a Good Thing* 17:54:53 as in, inherently 17:55:00 "gee keep your revision log clean!" 17:55:05 Just no. No no no. 17:55:06 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:55:08 elliott: put it this way, a simple git pull has an implicit rebase if it fast-forwards 17:55:14 You fail at version control. 17:55:19 ais523: which is just a flaw in git 17:55:23 really though, it's rewriting history 17:55:28 I can't imagine how anyone thinks that's a good idea 17:55:41 because git shows your history as you wish it were, rather than as how it actually was 17:56:26 if your repo starts out the same as someone else's, they make some changes, you pull them, your repos now have different histories, as one pulled the changes in a chunk, the other made them one at a time 17:56:37 in fact, git actually inherently goes exponential without any sort of rebase 17:56:50 because you have to keep on merging the fact that you're aware of the fact that the other person merged 17:56:56 now, I'm not saying this is a good thing at all 17:57:25 (git disregarding the same change made by two people in parallel I thought was just a detail, it's actually completely essential to the way that git works) 17:57:25 awful 17:57:36 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 17:57:43 ... 17:57:52 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:57:57 SgeoN1, has KT-AT stood you up? 17:58:11 A few minutes after I got here, she called to say she missed her bus 17:58:31 Yup. 17:59:06 ais523: coding haskell makes me crazy 17:59:18 I have to distill every algorithm down to the point where it's just a few combinators put together 17:59:20 anything else and I've failed 18:00:06 (git disregarding the same change made by two people in parallel I thought was just a detail, it's actually completely essential to the way that git works) <-- who gets credited with it then? 18:00:09 or what do you mean 18:00:11 We're going to try again tomorrow 18:00:35 Vorpal: I'm not entirely sure, it might actually be different in the two repos 18:00:49 because from git's view of the world, it doesn't matter 18:01:42 @undo do { x <- apply c xs; return $ (c1',s1) : (c2',s2) : x } 18:01:42 apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x 18:01:48 ais523, so the revision id checksum thingy is on the delta, and doesn't include commit message or author? 18:01:50 @pl apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x 18:01:51 ([(c1', s1), (c2', s2)] ++) `fmap` apply c xs 18:02:48 ais523: "replace SOF with X" is an invalid change, right? 18:02:51 same with s/SOF/EOF/ 18:03:06 ais523: (I'm assuming there's a replace, since having it as a delete+insert causes fake conflicts) 18:03:19 (if not, "delete SOF/EOF" is an invalid change, right?) 18:04:29 > ((1 :) . (2 :)) [1,2,3] 18:04:31 [1,2,1,2,3] 18:07:20 I think ais523 just removed SOF. 18:11:42 elliott, I'm trying the airbase idea now, FWIW. 18:11:51 Phantom_Hoover: On SSP? 18:11:55 YEs. 18:11:59 *Yes. 18:11:59 Phantom_Hoover: Towards Dawn did it with tiny platforms. 18:12:16 elliott, I'm not going to be doing that, obviously. 18:12:21 WHY NO 18:12:21 T 18:12:36 I have enough wood now that I can smelt some coal overnight and get some torches. 18:12:53 (Charcoal is the best thing EVER.) 18:13:59 Waitwhat. 18:13:59 -!- j-invariant has joined. 18:14:03 Wood doesn't burn any more. 18:14:20 Ah, logs do. 18:14:25 GOOD THING I KEPT SOME 18:14:48 Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't? 18:14:51 Weird. 18:14:56 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:14:59 How many logs did you start with? 18:15:02 No, wait, planks still burn. 18:15:02 According to the wiki, at least. 18:15:08 Possibly a balance thing, but I'll need to check 18:16:08 The furnace isn't working at all. 18:16:09 19:04 elliott> @pl apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x 18:16:10 19:04 lambdabot> ([(c1', s1), (c2', s2)] ++) `fmap` apply c xs 18:16:12 Phantom_Hoover: I have 26+5 right now, how much more should I get? 18:16:17 ooh, @pl is that clever now? 18:16:17 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 18:16:27 Don't know; I think I'll ask someone. 18:16:32 oerjan: became: apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x 18:16:34 erm 18:16:40 oerjan: became | otherwise = (((c1',s1) :) . ((c2',s2) :)) <$> apply c xs 18:17:24 elliott: you didn't use the [...] ++ ? 18:17:35 oerjan: no, because I have ((foo,bar) :) <$> in other cases of the function 18:17:37 so this is more consistent 18:17:45 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa 18:17:58 It's *wood* which smelts to coal, not *planks*! 18:18:04 elliott: i think you have a redundant set of parentheses there 18:18:18 > (0$0<$>) 18:18:19 The operator `Data.Functor.<$>' [infixl 4] of a section 18:18:19 must have lowe... 18:19:03 the precedence of . is lower 18:19:10 er, higher 18:19:12 Phantom_Hoover: LAWL 18:19:17 Phantom_Hoover: Start a tree farm, btw. 18:19:24 oerjan: ah 18:19:30 I will, I have the dirt and saplings. 18:19:33 Phantom_Hoover: 10 cobble enough for the first night? 18:20:00 elliott: basically . has the highest possible precedence, and $ has the lowest 18:20:16 oerjan: um there is no $ here 18:20:52 elliott: no, it's just a general rule i go by 18:21:20 Phantom_Hoover: FWIW, how much wood did you start off with? 18:21:33 in fact it annoyed me that Parsec gave another operator ( iirc) the same precedence as $, in a way that ruined the ability to combine them 18:21:49 elliott, a pretty large amount. 18:22:04 Phantom_Hoover: how come everyone else's days seem to last 2398234982349 longer than mine 18:22:08 There were quite a few large trees when I found them 18:22:17 elliott, Actually, the night snuck up on me. 18:22:23 (if had reversed its order of arguments and used the same fixity as $, they would have worked seamlessly together without parentheses) 18:22:32 that's weird. I found smoe new kind of wood but it's still called wood 18:22:37 I thought it was morning when it was evening 18:23:04 But by that point I had plenty of wood, cobble and dirt, so I just set up the base as night fell. 18:23:09 j-invariant, that's a FEATURE! 18:23:17 (There are now 3 kinds of tree.) 18:23:17 the Prelude has no operators sharing precedence with either . or $ afair 18:23:21 TODO: get a few more cobbles and then go up. 18:23:29 Phantom_Hoover: What's the third? 18:23:51 elliott, pine. 18:23:53 (well s/Prelude/\& and Haskell 98 library/ 18:23:54 ) 18:24:07 (The cobbles aren't that necessary, I just wanted them for peace of mind.) 18:24:57 Phantom_Hoover: The cobbles are required for furnace and also for initial tools. 18:25:06 Phantom_Hoover: nice, I really like this new kind 18:25:06 Phantom_Hoover: For instance a wood sword won't get you very fa. 18:25:07 *far. 18:25:15 I am trying to grow it 18:25:35 elliott, well, OK, but you won't need tools once you get up onto your platform for the night. 18:25:43 j-invariant: But the next day... 18:25:49 9 for a furnace is all you really need. 18:25:49 erm 18:25:51 *PH: 18:25:55 Phantom_Hoover: How high did you make your shelter? 18:26:01 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:26:05 Hi :-) 18:26:06 j-invariant: make my function prettier! http://sprunge.us/ECZO :P 18:26:07 Also, I now have a 5x5 tree plantation with 9 saplings! 18:26:14 I only have 8 saplings. 18:26:16 elliott, 30m off ground. 18:26:17 Ho 18:26:23 Phantom_Hoover: Off sea level? 18:26:33 Near enough. 18:26:57 impomatic: hm i have a vague idea there was something i wanted to tell you 18:27:29 Oerjan: was it about corewar, programming games or recursion? 18:27:42 hm _possibly_ recursion 18:28:10 Oerjan: or maybe you wanted to join the mob of people angry at me for some dodgy Forth code! 18:28:14 That creeper is just sitting there. 18:28:14 maybe i already did tell you, i'm not sure 18:28:16 Mocking me. 18:28:24 Preventing me from returning to the ground. 18:28:25 impomatic: i'm pretty sure it wasn't forth-related 18:28:34 Phantom_Hoover: did you use the dirt to be one piece of the floor? 18:28:39 i assume you made the house itself out of planks 18:28:52 elliott, yes. 18:29:01 Phantom_Hoover: Did you make walls? 18:29:04 impomatic: hm was it something wiki-related... 18:29:08 elliott, no. 18:29:11 Phantom_Hoover: A ceiling? 18:29:15 Rather superfluous, no? 18:29:16 * oerjan checks 18:29:20 Phantom_Hoover: A ceiling? 18:29:24 No. 18:29:43 It's only 5x5 with an adjoining 5x5 tree farm. 18:30:07 Oerjan: it might have been, I was asking about BF Joust, FYB, pastebin.ca and broken voxel links a few days ago :-P 18:30:29 impomatic: oh BF Joust it was 18:30:40 impomatic: i wanted to suggest you ask in agora 18:30:54 And a gigantic swath of APNIC allocations leaves them below 2.1 /8s. 18:30:55 since that's where it was invented 18:31:05 Phantom_Hoover: Did you build a one-high wall to stop you falling out, or are you more hardcore than me? 18:31:12 elliott, MORE HARDCORE 18:31:21 Which is their usual allocation threshold... 18:31:32 I might build a fence, but it might be too much bother if I expand. 18:31:39 Food → 18:32:01 Phantom_Hoover: I'm above water, so I can just jump off if I want. MWAHAHAHAHA 18:32:38 IANA depletion estimate: any minute now. 18:33:18 Oerjan: I found what I needed to know thanks... I was adding a brief history to the page on the programming games wiki http://programminggames.org/BF-Joust.ashx 18:33:41 my first crash :( 18:34:03 Back. 18:34:20 impomatic: oh you're Imp... you _do_ have a User:Impomatic too 18:34:20 Phantom_Hoover: One log only produces one coal. 18:34:29 Yes...? 18:34:55 Phantom_Hoover: Well it's INEFFICIENT! 18:35:08 No it isn't. 18:35:21 Oerjan: I know, but I forgot the password and I didn't set an email address to recover it :-( 18:35:27 Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's 5/4 logs to 1 coal. 18:35:32 Ilari: APNIC's pool is at 2.01 /8s. Thought you'd like to know. 18:35:47 elliott, ...no it isn't. 18:35:56 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, of course, you can use the coal as fuel. 18:37:21 Sod it. I am just going to set the difficulty to peaceful for a second and despawn the creepers. 18:37:38 pikhq: Source? 18:37:54 http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information 18:38:13 Phantom_Hoover: Why? 18:38:16 I'm going to go on to hard. 18:38:29 Phantom_Hoover: Question. Can trees grow on the corner of a platform? 18:38:37 * oerjan checks that he has his email set 18:39:15 Would anyone be interested in an ARobots tournament? http://programminggames.org/ARobots.ashx - basically CROBOTS in 8086 assembly 18:39:45 elliott, I should think so. 18:40:01 "When APNIC only has a total of one /8 left, the final /8 policy will be triggered." -- That's presumably some APNIC-internal policy... 18:40:08 Also, I'm just trying to get rid of daytime creepers, which are ridiculously broken gameplay-wise. 18:40:39 Ilari: Yeah, that's an allocation policy for dealing with being near RIR depletion. 18:41:19 For rationing out the very last /8. 18:41:23 Ilari: of course it doesn't actually _matter_ when they allocate, given that no one else is likely to do so. apart from the news/propaganda value. 18:42:16 elliott, slightly more awesome version of the lavalight: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Ladder-lava-force-field.png 18:42:18 Phantom_Hoover: Facepalm. I just placed torches in my tree farm. 18:42:24 Phantom_Hoover: My tree farm that gets sunlight. 18:42:25 IPv4 depletion is near and I still don't have IPv6 service from my ISP. 18:42:35 Also, seen. 18:42:56 Same here... 18:42:58 :-/ 18:43:11 :( 18:43:46 -!- cal153 has quit. 18:44:29 Phantom_Hoover: What should I do with my SEXY BLACK WOOL 18:46:04 elliott, pretend it's obsidian? 18:46:07 "Since my abandonment of RCS in favor of hg has caused comex to start 18:46:07 tracking the ruleset again, I resign as Rulekeepor." 18:46:54 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:48:09 According to APNIC extended delegated file, they have 33 608 704 IPs available (2.003 blocks) 18:48:27 THESE TREES IN'T GROWING 18:50:10 Lagerholm estimated that the request will be sent on monday and takes few days to process, officially depleting the pool on wednesday or thursday... 18:50:12 Phantom_Hoover: Make the trees grow. 18:50:13 elliott, agora? (wrt that quote) 18:50:17 Vorpal: Yes. 18:50:37 elliott, get some bonemeal? 18:50:37 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:50:43 Ilari, depleeting what pool? 18:50:44 Phantom_Hoover: How does that help? 18:50:47 Vorpal: *depleting 18:50:48 IANA IPv4. 18:50:56 Ilari, the global one!? 18:51:01 Yes ... 18:51:01 so soon? 18:51:03 Vorpal: Yes. 18:51:20 But it'll be a few months before we see the effects. 18:51:28 then allocation really spiked the last week or two 18:51:32 elliott, indeed I know that 18:51:50 elliott, bonemeal makes trees and crops grow instantly. 18:51:50 Phantom_Hoover: How does bonemeal help? 18:51:53 Vorpal: Yeah, APNIC had some massive allocation requests recently. 18:51:53 It does?? 18:51:55 How do I get it again? 18:52:08 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 18:52:18 pikhq, ah 18:52:47 elliott, bonemeal makes trees and crops grow instantly. <-- really? How do you apply it then 18:53:02 before or after I mean 18:53:11 (planting) 18:53:11 Vorpal, right-click, I assume. 18:53:18 elliott, find bone. Craft bone. 18:53:24 Phantom_Hoover, and you claimed it makes that blue stuff. How? 18:53:25 Phantom_Hoover: How find bone. 18:53:25 Bones are dropped by skeletons. 18:53:30 Vorpal: Secret. 18:53:38 elliott, is it a bug or not? 18:53:40 Also, it's called lapis lazuli. 18:53:53 elliott, find skeleton. Kill skeleton. 18:54:05 Alternately: find skeleton. Wait 'till skeleton goes on fire. 18:54:06 Phantom_Hoover: I have no armour. That sounds scary. 18:54:10 That sounds easier. 18:54:49 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:54:53 Phantom_Hoover, just asking about that bonemeal -> lapis lazuli: is it done by making use of a bug or is it intended? 18:55:12 It is HHI secret. 18:55:21 Food → 18:55:25 elliott, you can answer if it is a bug or not without problems however. 18:55:33 Of course. But we won't. 18:55:36 DAMMIT TREES, GROW 18:55:40 STOP BEING HAPPY, COWS 18:55:42 MY TREES AREN'T GROWING 18:55:52 elliott, I can't see how it helps me if I knew if it was due to a bug or not 18:55:56 besides, why is it a secret 18:56:33 ah found it on youtube 18:56:41 The terrain generator's improvements are wonderful. 18:56:54 elliott, will it result in an edge towards current terrain? 18:57:03 Unlikely, I don't think it's new. 18:57:05 Just tweaked. 18:57:23 Take a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/IVrIw.png 18:57:28 I have no idea how far it goes. 18:57:55 elliott, well I seen similar things before 18:58:05 Biomes are still too tiny though. 18:59:51 I think the cobble texture has been changed. 18:59:54 Well. 19:00:01 The top of furnaces are now not the same as stone. :/ 19:00:41 elliott, it has been fixed (the bonemeal thingy) in the update today it seems. At least according to reddit. 19:00:50 Lies. 19:01:11 elliott, hm okay. 19:01:55 INCIDENTALLY 19:01:59 Jeb made this: http://i.imgur.com/a7uht.png 19:02:13 Note how this update, which is cool and seems to have added almost no bugs, was made almost entirely by Jeb. 19:02:33 And also increases performance by including the code improvements of a (supposedly frowned-upon) modder. 19:02:41 hah 19:02:43 We should all pray that Notch decides to retire immediately. 19:02:47 Curiosity cam http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl#&utm_source=498663 19:02:51 And leaves Minecraft to Jeb. 19:03:09 elliott, notch had decent ideas though. 19:03:17 just poor at implementing them 19:03:19 But he should never be allowed near code. Ever. 19:03:27 elliott, that I can agree on 19:03:35 Also I think Notch ran out of ideas. 19:03:42 Before this Jeb update, the game had been much the same for ages. 19:03:59 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:04:36 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 19:05:54 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 19:06:50 -!- hiato has joined. 19:07:11 Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover: "Possbly due to an error, when Beta 1.2 came out trees that had already been created were re-created often with the same shape but more than one type of leaves, often all three." 19:07:20 -!- variable has joined. 19:07:48 elliott, is it this bug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K7BGI2Jq8E 19:07:57 HHI is silent. 19:08:07 elliott, if it is then it is already out in the open 19:08:08 :P 19:08:22 Vorpal, where did you *think* we got it from? 19:08:26 Vorpal: wow! 19:08:37 Phantom_Hoover: Not there at least. 19:08:41 j-invariant, it was a bug which has been fixed. 19:08:44 elliott: I've seen a tree with two leaves 19:08:48 Yes. But HHI still has the power. 19:08:51 j-invariant: :D 19:08:53 -!- acetoline has joined. 19:08:53 elliott, well, I got it from /r/minecraft, but anyway... 19:08:55 Phantom_Hoover, well you could have found it yourself? 19:09:00 Phantom_Hoover: Right, but we have the btter way. 19:09:09 Oh, that way. 19:09:11 Yes, we do. 19:09:22 Phantom_Hoover, found another way yourself? heh nice 19:09:25 Bone meal is white dye. Why. 19:09:31 Wool is already white! 19:10:02 elliott, well, you can combine it with coloured dyes to make light colour 19:10:10 Oh, they combine? Neat. 19:10:36 how do you make dye in the first place? 19:10:43 I've never seen anything like lapis lazuli in the wild 19:10:44 OMG YOU CAN PAINT SHEEP 19:10:46 j-invariant: various ways 19:10:48 j-invariant, various sources. 19:10:51 j-invariant: lapis lazuli is ore, near redstone 19:10:51 elliott, j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Wool_Dyes 19:10:57 or that 19:10:58 OMG YOU CAN PAINT SHEEP <-- old 19:11:03 I heard that yesterday 19:11:03 don't care 19:11:05 youcan paint sheep 19:11:09 elliott, OLD 19:11:16 elliott, this has been known since yesterday 19:11:16 you can paint sheep 19:11:18 don't care 19:11:19 you can paint sheep 19:11:23 hmm, Haskell is too elegant to easily read 19:11:36 ais523: wat 19:11:39 it's like the accusations people make against Perl, except actually warranted 19:11:45 elliott, correct. But if you think that is the most important thing to repeat... sure go ahead 19:11:46 ais523: not...really 19:11:48 I find Haskell easy to read 19:11:50 ais523, wrong way 'round. 19:11:52 it just says too much in too little a piece of code 19:12:04 ais523: It's _slower_ to read, but you have _less_ to read. 19:12:07 It's not more difficult. 19:12:08 Perl is needlessly hard to read, while Haskell is actually terse for a reason. 19:12:12 ais523: It's just more compact. 19:12:25 @hoogle tsort 19:12:26 No results found 19:12:29 @hoogle topological 19:12:30 No results found 19:14:22 Vorpal: How resource-intensive is blowing up a 128x128x127 cube of TNT? 19:14:41 _Extremely._ 19:14:51 ais523: I find that Haskell is easy to read except when people are being *too* clever. 19:14:54 Servers have broken on me with *8* TNT. 19:15:07 Phantom_Hoover: WELL I WANT TO DO IT 19:15:13 ais523: The problem is, of course, is that some people are far too clever. 19:15:18 Go ahead, but your computer will die. 19:15:23 Phantom_Hoover: World editing plugin to clear 128x128x128 plus a bit, and then fill 128x128x127 with TNT, and detonate it. 19:15:28 Come back a few hours later with tea, observe destruction. 19:15:31 TNT is a lot to use one a server 19:15:35 *on 19:15:36 ais523: Perl, on the other hand, is hard to read except when people are being careful. 19:15:49 elliott, servers do actually crash with less TNT than that. 19:16:00 Of course, it may just be that I find a monad-pipeline pretty clear. 19:16:06 I love parsec 19:16:12 it's beauty 19:16:14 And I have had entire worlds corrupted. 19:16:25 oh, by the way 19:16:26 siunitx 19:16:30 is like the greatest package ever 19:16:44 ais523: hmm, it just occurred to me that there's probably a way to turn any container into an equivalent change structure 19:16:51 ais523: as in, lists -> file changes; sets -> directory changes 19:16:51 coppro: Oh? 19:17:10 pikhq: TeX package that does unit formatting for you 19:17:26 Delish. 19:17:43 G = \SI{6.67e-11}{\meter\cubed\per\kilogram\per\second\squared} 19:17:48 a bit verbose, but very legible 19:17:59 the verbosity is optional iirc 19:18:03 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 19:18:03 Vorpal: How resource-intensive is blowing up a 128x128x127 cube of TNT? <-- in what? 19:18:05 Wait, I remember what put me off Chrome. 19:18:09 No adblock. 19:18:09 Vorpal: Um, Minecraft? 19:18:10 elliott, CPU? Memory? 19:18:13 Everything. 19:18:17 Phantom_Hoover: Um, it has extensions. 19:18:21 Phantom_Hoover: And AdBlock. 19:18:21 elliott, or do you mean in number of TNT required 19:18:24 Vorpal: Former. 19:18:32 Yaaaaaay! 19:18:36 ais523: hmm, what's the rough algorithm for turning a set of scapegoat changes into a graph so that it can be topologically sorted? 19:19:27 elliott, I have no idea. But even something like a few hundred TNT could crash the server. Though iirc with 1.2 TNT was optimised a bit. Still I expect enough TNT will cause issues. No idea where the limit is. 19:20:39 it's an awesome package 19:22:26 so here's a tip; If you use shift to walk near the edge of a thing... even if you've stopped moving, letting go can make you fall 19:22:42 j-invariant: obviously :P 19:22:47 you can walk off the edge of a lock with sneaking 19:22:53 *block 19:22:57 elliott: no you can't 19:22:59 yes, you can 19:23:05 you see it on multiplayer 19:23:09 people off the edge of blocks while sneaking 19:23:11 leave go, fall down 19:23:41 elliott, how do you lock sneaking on, BtW? 19:23:46 Phantom_Hoover: you don't. 19:25:37 is there a very good source of health? 19:25:46 j-invariant, pigs, wheat, fish. 19:25:53 killing all the pigs is hard, oh I will try fishing! 19:26:03 You'll need string. 19:26:20 j-invariant: Set up a farm. 19:26:27 For wheat. 19:26:32 okay 19:29:55 Phantom_Hoover, hm interesting: "This same principal applies to combining string to form a wool block and grabbing it with a dyed wool block!" 19:29:58 You need a hoe first. 19:30:00 Phantom_Hoover, I guess that is it :) 19:30:13 Phantom_Hoover, or have you found a third way? 19:30:13 Vorpal, that bug is also fixed. 19:31:01 graphFromEdges :: Ord key => [(node, key, [key])] -> (Graph, Vertex -> (node, key, [key]), key -> Maybe Vertex) 19:31:02 Mrf, how stupid. 19:31:08 They are actually both the same bug. 19:31:15 Phantom_Hoover, hm 19:31:20 elliott, did you make up the Graph monad. 19:31:28 ? 19:31:46 Phantom_Hoover, so you have a third bug then? 19:32:07 We could not possibly comment. 19:32:33 elliott, dude this reveals nothing :P 19:32:42 aw the fishing line can't stretch infinitely far 19:32:56 elliott, and I was asking Phantom_Hoover not you 19:33:25 j-invariant, did you plan something that needed that? 19:34:45 Vorpal: no 19:35:03 http://i.imgur.com/46k5O.png Redstone over Radio 19:35:24 elliott: is that true :D 19:35:34 j-invariant: It's just an idea, of which there are billions. 19:35:36 BUT IT'S A GOOD ONE 19:35:41 it is a decent one yes 19:35:46 but why a hide? 19:35:55 elliott: I think minecraft should have a system for adding new things like this to it, since everyone has their own ideas 19:36:05 j-invariant: you want oklopol's game 19:36:06 Vorpal: vibrations 19:36:08 Vorpal: ear 19:36:13 Vorpal: it's like drum material 19:36:15 eardrum type stuff 19:36:19 what is it? 19:36:22 j-invariant: where every block has its own program in it 19:36:26 elliott, arguably that would be better for the music blocks instead 19:36:36 j-invariant: and you play by programming blocks to be bots that mine for you and shit 19:36:49 Vorpal: do you know what the eardrum is ... 19:36:51 is this a real game? 19:36:55 sound -> hide part vibrates -> stuff 19:36:57 j-invariant: well he's working on it 19:36:59 elliott, well yes, but do you know what a speaker is? 19:37:04 cool 19:37:07 Vorpal: yes. 19:37:24 oh speaker could use paper there I guess 19:37:34 most speaker membranes are paper afaik 19:37:40 really? xD 19:37:56 elliott, never took apart a loudspeaker? 19:38:03 no. 19:38:06 I need to get around to trying out that computer level 19:38:13 I haven't tried anyone elese minecraft worlds yeet 19:38:24 elliott, paper is very common as the membrane. I can't promise that every speaker use it but all the ones I took apart have 19:38:35 really? xD ← ...yes? 19:38:48 Vorpal: i see a market for audiophiles 19:38:53 PURE GOLD PAPER MEMBRANE 19:39:16 elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3.5_Inch_Speaker.jpg the black is rather thick paper 19:39:48 Oh, I thought you meant paper-paper. 19:39:57 Like, actual writing-style paper paper. 19:40:17 elliott, no. 19:40:18 Phantom_Hoover: 19:40:19 You can hook a dispenser up to redstone, have the dispenser shoot an arrow at a wall of paintings with pressure plates underneath. The arrow knocks off the painting which hits a pressure plate and causes a continuation of the circuit. 19:40:19 WIRELESS REDSTONE! 19:40:20 "The diaphragm is usually manufactured with a cone- or dome-shaped profile. A variety of different materials may be used, but the most common are paper, plastic, and metal." 19:40:24 HHI Research must do this. 19:40:37 elliott, this has been done in the craftbook mod 19:40:42 I don't care. 19:40:56 HHI Research will use it to blow up TNT, which will be an innovation. 19:41:03 The test will take place underneath Mount Vorpal, a very secure location. 19:41:16 elliott, did you find that thing about the painting yourself? 19:41:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:41:24 elliott, as if... 19:41:36 I Ctrl+V'd, which is obvious. 19:41:47 elliott, no quotes around it 19:41:53 so I was wondering 19:41:53 Oh noes 19:42:02 elliott, why would it be that bad? 19:42:08 Phantom_Hoover: OH GOD SPIDERS CLIMBING WALLS WAS A PLAYER SUGGESTION WHY 19:42:12 Vorpal: ? 19:42:18 HHI Research will use it to blow up TNT, which will be an innovation. ← I feel that we need some other innovations. 19:42:24 TNT-related innovations? 19:42:25 I agree 19:42:27 *agree. 19:42:29 elliott, "oh noes" <-- why would forgetting quotes be that bad 19:42:35 Vorpal: ITT sarcasm 19:42:54 I hooked a creeper and pulled him towards me X) 19:43:29 j-invariant: stupidest thing to do ever :D 19:43:33 elliott, anyway I don't see the invention in using this thing someone else did. Not saying using it is a bad idea at mt hoover or at the cube. But calling it innovation seems a bit wrong :P 19:43:41 Vorpal: *mt vorpal 19:43:45 elliott, no 19:44:01 herlo 19:44:10 Phantom_Hoover: http://foone.org/minecraft/death/ 19:44:18 i have no money 19:44:20 i want to minecraft 19:44:29 someone buy minecraft! 19:44:54 cheater99, ask elliott for that link that notch left wide open due to incompetence (if it still works?) 19:45:06 I don't service cheater99. 19:45:06 elliott: PLZ~ 19:45:15 -!- cheater99 has changed nick to cheater98. 19:45:19 elliott: PLZ~ 19:45:33 elliott, right. I guess it is a HHI secret? 19:45:41 Vorpal: No, cheater98 is just a twat. 19:45:48 Anyone else want Minecraft? 19:45:50 :'( 19:46:09 -!- cheater98 has changed nick to chelliott. 19:46:13 me! 19:46:41 Link? Wide open? 19:46:58 Yes, anyone can download minecraft.jar. 19:47:07 Ah, right. 19:47:10 He has S3 authentication tokens and whatnot set up but doesn't actually, you know, require them; you can just download the file. 19:47:15 Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, as in, bin/minecraft.jar. 19:47:25 As in, Notch's incompetence lets anyone pirate the game direct from Mojang. 19:47:34 so if you download it can you play on public servers? 19:47:49 elliott: Consider myself curious. 19:47:51 elliott, yes, I know. 19:48:08 chelliott: no. 19:48:13 elliott, also, I knew those chickens were up to something. 19:48:17 That will always require purchase due to Mojang's DRM system. 19:48:32 DRM? 19:48:49 pikhq: /msg 19:48:51 mojang? 19:48:59 j-invariant: The servers check with minecraft.net to see if you're authenticated and purchased. 19:49:06 There's no actual way around that other than the server being modded. 19:49:22 what server do you guys play on? 19:49:23 public? 19:49:30 or private/modded? 19:49:32 chelliott, not for you. 19:49:37 O M G 19:50:48 ( * chelliott pretends to care so that Phantom_Hoover and elliott actually think he's interested in playing minecraft with them, in order to do some "bonding", but doesn't really care deep down) 19:51:31 chelliott: they are very secetritve 19:51:51 j-invariant: Everyone knows our server, it's just that ineiros is technically the only person allowed to tell anyone and he's been away :P 19:51:53 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:51:59 elliott: I don't know it 19:52:07 j-invariant: because you haven't bugged ineiros while he's been online. 19:52:25 chelliott, you could find it in logs 19:52:34 Vorpal: right 19:52:40 Vorpal: but then, i don't get server :( 19:52:42 well I might ask him because I want to see "The Cube" 19:52:43 chelliott, grep them for http://.*minecraft.* 19:52:49 chelliott, tough shit 19:53:09 j-invariant: It's, er, very under-construction. 19:53:11 chelliott, iirc s3.amazon.com or whatever they call their service 19:53:17 Vorpal: Don't fucking tell him. 19:53:31 elliott, well you could start acting decently towards me 19:53:34 Although I guess as long as he doesn't find the server it's okay. 19:53:39 elliott, then I might care more for what you say 19:53:39 Vorpal: i am going to cry my eyes out and then curl up in an embrional position, bobbing back and forth, until the exhaustion makes me fall asleep. 19:54:00 i always wanted to see what it would be like to climb Mt. Vorpal :( 19:54:04 it is never to be.. 19:54:08 Oh fuck off. 19:54:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:54:22 chelliott, you can do single player. For multiplayer you obviously need to buy the game 19:54:41 Vorpal: don't you guys have a hacked multiplayer server? 19:54:45 chelliott, anyway you can find the urls in the logs if you care for single player 19:54:49 chelliott, no. not hacked 19:54:50 Vorpal: sounds like a fairly simple thing to do in fact 19:55:02 just intercept the requests, no? 19:55:05 the cube? the movie? 19:55:13 or a mc thing 19:55:47 elliott, anyway, when do you plan to start acting decently towards me? Do you expect something for nothing? 19:55:55 Vorpal: he does 19:55:59 :indignant: 19:55:59 Vorpal: i bet they're not even encrypted? 19:56:01 chelliott? the female portal-shooting equivalent of ehird? 19:56:11 chelliott, what? 19:56:20 quintopia: cheater being a moron. 19:56:22 Vorpal: those call-homes 19:56:24 chelliott: ineiros doesn't want non-purchasers on the server. 19:56:29 chelliott: So that will never, ever happen. 19:56:39 elliott: not talking to u 19:56:47 chelliott, what elliott said is true here 19:56:51 Vorpal: ahh ok 19:57:05 coppro, you are right I guess. 19:57:06 Vorpal: but if someone were to set up a server, they could intercept it like that, right? 19:57:16 chelliott, I don't see why you need to do that 19:57:16 They could just use a mod that disables it ... 19:57:18 *shrug* 19:57:28 Vorpal: so that people without a bought mc can also play 19:57:37 chelliott, ... read again please :P 19:57:48 chelliott, and then read what elliott just said 19:57:52 Vorpal: i'm sorry, i'm a bit lost 19:58:03 oh, sorry, i mostly don't read what elliott says 19:58:04 chelliott, no need to intercept. Just mod. 19:58:10 gotcha 19:58:23 oh, sorry, i mostly don't read what elliott says <-- sounds like a good idea in fact. 19:58:30 Vorpal: BTW, the S3 downloads don't work; you need to log in once before you can play. 19:58:43 elliott, oh? didn't they work before? 19:58:47 Vorpal: we should set up a mega secret server then! 19:58:48 What? 19:59:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:59:22 elliott, you said they worked before? Anyway I believe faking a login is rather trivial. 19:59:32 I looked at the decompiled launcher 19:59:33 Vorpal, the enemy of your enemy is not your friend here. 19:59:46 you could just mod it. 19:59:48 Phantom_Hoover, hm? 19:59:50 Getting rid of cheater is in everyone's interest. 19:59:54 Phantom_Hoover, when did I claim it was. 20:00:08 Vorpal, do not engage with him. At all. 20:00:21 Phantom_Hoover, well then, why not ask a channel op about him? 20:01:22 he manages to avoid outright trolling enough of the time that he goes under the radar. 20:01:29 also, ops never do anything apart from kick shutup 20:01:47 elliott, they kickbanned spambots I know :P 20:02:08 oh wait, that is what you said 20:02:09 sorry 20:02:14 Phantom_Hoover, hm. The something for nothing thing applies to you too 20:02:31 What? 20:02:53 "Someone I don't like is saying these things, therefore the fact that they can reasonably demonstrate that the actions they recommend are in the channel's best interest are things I should NOT do, because I must prove that I am at least as childish as the people I call that!" 20:03:01 You're well on your way, keep up the good work. 20:03:05 Phantom_Hoover, see scrollback around last like coppro spoke 20:03:54 "therefore the fact that they can reasonably demonstrate that the actions they recommend are in the channel's best interest" <-- so demonstrate it 20:04:44 elliott, what I'm saying here is closer to "I don't trust your judgement. 20:04:46 " 20:04:59 cheater has repeatedly demonstrated that not only does he have no interest or knowledge of esolangs, 20:05:18 but he has repeatedly acted superior and idiotic to many people in this channel on many, many occasions, while having contributed not one iota of positive discussion to it. 20:05:38 That he is an idiot can be trivially verified by reading the logs; that he annoys people who are not can be verified the same. 20:05:51 All he does is waste people's time. 20:06:13 fair enough on those points. 20:06:18 chelliott: you should change your name back then 20:06:42 As such, you should ignore him and starve him of the attention he so desperately craves. 20:07:02 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:07:19 Brawndo! It's got what plants crave! 20:08:04 elliott: i have demonstrated i have no interest in knowing esolangs? 20:08:13 elliott: have you been drinking cillit bang again? 20:08:31 You haven't really talked about esolangs once (you talked about Clue once, but then you started spinning some bullshit about it being a good business idea to oklopol or something). 20:08:41 You also have no wiki presence 20:08:41 elliott: you're the kid here talking about computer games and ubuntu and mac laptops all the time 20:08:46 *presence. 20:08:47 yeah yeah 20:08:57 okay so no one is on topic very much 20:08:57 chelliott: I have repeatedly demonstrated that I have an interest in and knowledge of esolangs in the past. 20:08:58 we've got another one of elliott's attacks, everyone take cover 20:08:59 You have not. 20:09:06 can we please have the restraining jacket 20:09:08 Oh, fuck off. 20:09:15 You are an utter twat. 20:09:21 elliott: you forgot to run out and slam the door. 20:09:32 FFS, I am putting him on ignore. elliott, I will put you on ignore as well if you keep on engaging with him. 20:09:34 and scream "no one understands me" 20:09:43 elliott, and you are socially incompetent 20:09:46 "He's on to me, I'd better try and change the topic by being an idiot!" 20:09:54 coppro: why don't you change you rname back? 20:09:58 chelliott: I mean 20:10:00 Vorpal: OK, where the fuck did you get that from? 20:10:06 j-invariant: oh right, well, i forgot about it 20:10:18 elliott, from observing your general behaviour towards me and coppro for example. 20:10:20 j-invariant: then i read your comment, and then i read elliott's mental diarrhea, and had to reply to that first 20:10:21 Who's chelliott? 20:10:27 okay 20:10:28 -!- chelliott has changed nick to cheater777. 20:10:32 SgeoN1, cheater. Do not talk to him. 20:10:39 there you go j-invariant 20:10:39 now I hope you can stop fighting because I think it's upsetting elliot 20:10:48 I'm not upset. 20:10:49 elliott, coppro is reasonably intelligent and he is interested in esolangs afaik 20:10:53 j-invariant: you've mixed up cause and effect 20:10:56 Can I not yell at someone without it being construed as upset? 20:11:02 Vorpal: coppro is the one who has me on ignore. 20:11:06 I do not have him on ignore. 20:11:13 Vorpal: coppro != cheater777 20:11:14 :-) 20:11:17 I have been rude to him lately because he keeps being a jerk mentioning how I'm on ignore all the time. 20:11:21 cheater777, indeed, did I claim so? 20:11:21 How do I get RSS feeds on Chrome? 20:11:38 Vorpal: just saying, it's a common typo. 20:11:54 no. And now you are being annoying. 20:12:02 My toes hurt 20:12:18 Phantom_Hoover: i think if you go to a page which has an rss feed you get an icon on the address bar... but i hadn't used chrome in ages now 20:12:19 elliott, well how comes he ignored you? 20:12:33 Vorpal: Ask him. 20:12:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:12:37 elliott, I seem to remember there was indeed a very good reason 20:12:39 ^^distracting everyone from the war so they can talk about my liveblkgging nonsense 20:12:46 Vorpal: i'm not being annoying, i just thought you were talking about me and made a typo, just like j-invariant a couple minutes earlier. what's so annoying about that? 20:12:55 elliott, I was there, it was a rhetorical question. 20:13:06 Vorpal: Enjoy your regular whine-about-elliott rant alone. 20:13:18 SgeoN1, as a sign of how desperate I am, please start liveblogging to your full capacity. 20:13:30 elliott, oh? I don't really enjoy this discussion. And it is no rant. 20:13:48 SgeoN1, LIVEBLOG 20:13:51 I'm on my second to.last bus 20:14:17 I'm upset that I didn't see her today, butthrilldd for tomorrow 20:14:25 elliott, still if you can't be decent towards me, then don't expect me to listen to your pleas 20:14:34 My hands are to cold to.type properly in this phone 20:14:52 SgeoN1, can't you type with gloves on? 20:15:02 SgeoN1 is actually dying of cold somewhere in the frigid wastes of New York. 20:15:16 Vorpal, the. Us is warm, but my hands are still stiff 20:15:39 The US is warm indeed. 20:15:44 Yes. The Us 20:15:47 SgeoN1, yes I'm sure parts of US is warm. Like Hawaii. But I suspect Alaska is rather cold. 20:15:55 I wonder what the average temperature is 20:16:38 Maybe tomorrow I'll see her for more than the 1.5 hours I thought I'd see her today 20:16:39 okokokokokokokokokoko 20:16:40 okokokokokokoko 20:16:43 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 20:16:44 okokokokoko 20:16:46 okokokokokokokokokoko 20:16:49 is my 2 cents 20:16:49 oko! 20:17:02 hope i didn't interrupt anything important 20:17:13 oklopol, indeed you didn't 20:17:15 that would be embarrassing 20:17:21 okay good 20:18:25 My toes ads still in pain 20:18:54 every period, when courses start, i have this really hard time doing homework because i'm afraid i just can't do it anymore 20:19:02 what if i've gotten old, and can't math anymore 20:19:10 oklopol, things got so bad I had to get Sgeo to liveblog. 20:19:28 oklopol: they give you homework that actualyl requires thinking? wow 20:19:30 oklopol, I doubt that. How old are you? 20:20:04 i'm err 20:20:07 fuck do i know 20:20:08 :D 20:20:11 erm 20:20:11 20 20:20:15 or 21 20:20:21 fuck... 20:20:22 oklopol, it is very unlikely to happen until you are at least 40 I bet. And even then unlikely for many years 20:20:23 let me calculate 20:20:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:20:36 2011 - 1989, so that means i turn 22 this year 20:20:39 oklopol, anyway if you are around 20-25 then you are not getting too old yet 20:20:41 so i'm 21 20:20:58 oklopol, hey we are equally old (excluding month and day I guess) 20:21:01 okay, but what if i've just gotten totally rusty at math 20:21:12 I'm same age 20:21:14 oklopol, did you just finish a course with math? 20:21:15 when do you turn 22? 20:21:19 oklopol, get some WD-40 on those brain cells. 20:21:22 May 20:21:23 oklopol, December 20:21:24 Vorpal: yes, i had an exam on monday 20:21:34 oklopol: sweet 22! 20:21:36 oklopol, then you are unlikely to be rusty already 20:21:40 SgeoN1, yes, but you have allowed your development to be retarded to the extent that you are effectively 14. 20:21:46 oklopol, a year without math, then maybe 20:22:03 Phantom_Hoover, be fair. 15 20:22:09 oklopol, have a little croft in some hinterlands. 20:22:12 does anyone know how to make xchat ignore mentions of a name? 20:22:30 Phantom_Hoover: As an ex-14-year-old, I take offence. 20:22:31 elliott, you could use the python or perl scripting plugin 20:22:33 * Phantom_Hoover discovers that "hinterland" does not actually mean what he thought it meant. 20:22:49 Phantom_Hoover, what did you think it meant? 20:22:53 elliott, that's clearly because you are an immature and stupid 15-year-old. 20:22:55 hunter2land 20:22:59 Phantom_Hoover: INDEED 20:23:03 And I smell funny too. 20:23:22 You have no understanding of the deeper meaning of things, unlike those of us who are fortunate enough to have the wisdom of age. 20:23:25 elliott is also homo and a nigger 20:23:30 yes 20:23:34 and a fag no less 20:23:35 a homo fag 20:23:39 additionally a kike 20:23:40 oklopol, OK, a croft in the highlands. 20:24:09 Phantom_Hoover, so what did you think "hinterland" meant? 20:24:27 backland 20:24:28 "Middle of nowhere". 20:24:59 Phantom_Hoover, hm I thought that too. In a somewhat negative sense. 20:25:12 Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean? 20:25:17 i heard elliott programs in php 20:25:20 what do you mean have one 20:25:30 Phantom_Hoover, huh: "The hinterland is the land or district behind the borders of a coast or river. Specifically, by the doctrine of the hinterland, the word is applied to the inland region lying behind a port, claimed by the state that owns the coast. ..." 20:25:33 oklopol, get one. 20:25:35 brb -> 20:25:38 maybe i will 20:25:38 Grow stuff. Eat it. 20:25:46 mmm, food 20:26:19 Finland is, admittedly, not the standard location for crofting, but I am assuming that it's sufficiently similar to the Highlands to be used for the purpose. 20:27:01 You have no understanding of the deeper meaning of things, unlike those of us who are fortunate enough to have the wisdom of age. <-- wait, aren't you younger than elliott even? 20:27:12 Vorpal, where did you get that idea from? 20:27:17 Phantom_Hoover, from elliott iirc. 20:27:21 I am far older and more mature than elliott. 20:27:30 Phantom_Hoover, more mature, I don't dispute that 20:27:35 Clearly that lie is just his vast immaturity showing through. 20:27:38 Phantom_Hoover must be at least 20 20:27:45 might even be 23 20:27:45 hm 20:27:56 HOW OLD ARE YOU PH 20:28:03 oklopol, recommended reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crofting 20:28:04 oklopol, no I don't think so. Could be older than elliott yes. 20:28:48 well yeah maybe closer to 20 20:28:58 oklopol, more like 16-20 20:29:02 hmmhmm 20:29:07 ph: age? 20:29:14 Phantom_Hoover, but yeah I thought elliott said you were 12 or 13? 20:29:15 15^W16. 20:29:30 the reason for my guess was the similarity to pikhq 20:29:36 i don't know where i get that from 20:29:47 ph is actually 7 20:29:53 otherwise i might've guessed he's overcompensating for his age 20:29:54 Vorpal, there was a complicated accident with a relativistic spaceship and I aged 3 years. 20:30:09 by being careful about what he says 20:30:10 like me 20:30:34 i actually think a penis hours about what i'm gonna say before hand 20:30:54 It was pretty obvious that I was less than 18, what with me mentioning school all the time 20:31:11 oh i don't actually listen to the *content* 20:31:19 Phantom_Hoover, ah 20:31:20 i just read the tone of voice of all you 20:31:23 ppl 20:31:35 oklopol, tone of voice over IRC? :D 20:31:50 yeah you know, punctuation 20:31:57 ah 20:32:07 Reminds me of that Pratchett character who pronounced brackets. 20:32:21 that's all i see, dots and uppercase vs lowercase 20:32:40 oklopol, http://www.crofting.org/ 20:32:46 Phantom_Hoover, hm yes. What was his name? And which book was it? 20:32:48 theory: complaints about immaturity are _always_ hypocritical. no exceptions. 20:32:49 Clearly you must start the Finnish crofting foundation. 20:33:06 Vorpal, Kirsty from the Johnny Maxwell series. 20:33:06 maturity is a silly concept 20:33:15 oklopol, not in cheese! 20:33:20 even when said as joke. 20:33:21 Phantom_Hoover, oh I thought it happened in Discworld too? 20:33:25 *a joke. 20:33:50 Phantom_Hoover, some lawyer or something? Probably wee free men or such? 20:33:51 note: above comment is hypocritical. 20:34:17 ais523: I got topographic sorting of changes working, at least 20:34:40 elliott: topographic sorting is trivial, please try to grow up. 20:34:48 oklopol: xD 20:34:57 i didn't actually impl the topographic sorting, just got it working on this structure :p 20:34:57 or use a fucking php function script kiddo 20:35:06 lol@ implication that php has tsort 20:35:09 :D 20:35:13 too complicated to implement! 20:35:16 indeed 20:35:19 oerjan: http://sprunge.us/cGcj pretty this please 20:35:37 wish haskell let me do "f x x" for "f x x' | x == x'" :( 20:35:42 i haven't checked this, but i imagine from the millions of php functions, you can actually never find any algorithms you need for your basic stuff 20:35:44 elliott: yeah same 20:36:11 unless you're doing something stupid like web stuff 20:36:30 elliott: oklotalk lets you do that 20:36:54 oklopol: :D 20:36:59 oklopol: impl http://sprunge.us/cGcj in oklotalk please 20:37:23 elliott, I want to know how Scapegoat works. Please give me basic direction on where to look for Git help. 20:37:36 Phantom_Hoover: i dunno, ask ais523 20:37:39 he's good at answers 20:38:13 ais523, where do I look for Git help? 20:38:15 so when where the three differen types of tree introduced? 20:38:18 is that very recent? 20:38:22 j-invariant, yesterday. 20:38:26 ah!! 20:38:38 then the minecraft world is not all generated when you start a new game 20:38:49 Of course not. 20:38:55 j-invariant: Considering it's practically infinite, of course not :P 20:38:56 Did you seriously think it was? 20:39:01 It's LAZILY EVALUATED. 20:39:10 I thought it wasn't: This proves it 20:39:15 Except that sometimes the function changes half-way through evaluation and you get biome discontinuities! 20:39:20 j-invariant: It has been proved much earlier. 20:39:26 j-invariant: ALSO, all trees regenerated with the update. 20:39:26 by someone else 20:39:33 Normally you wouldn't see the new type. 20:39:37 Until venturing out into new terrain. 20:39:43 I did go to new terrain 20:40:22 is "Combinatorial Algorithms" any good? (Donald Knuth) 20:40:46 it's knuth so probably? 20:40:49 heh 20:41:54 # 7.9. Herculean tasks (aka NP-hard problems) 20:41:56 sounds good 20:43:18 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw NOTHIN' TO REPORT TODAY JUUUUUUUD 20:44:24 WTF lol 20:44:47 elliott, I already linked to that. 20:45:04 Well, your mother. 20:45:19 http://i.imgur.com/eS9fx.jpg BEST EVER 20:45:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:45:40 Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I will never forgive Jeb for taking up bluestone for lapis POOPLI. 20:46:12 "Lapis lazuli" is objectively the coolest name for anything ever. 20:46:23 "I want there to be some secret conspiracy where you can make a portal out of Lapis Lazuli blocks and get into heaven." 20:46:33 Phantom_Hoover: Heaven portals. Fuckin' DISCUSS. 20:46:55 elliott, when you go there, there's a Jesus mob. 20:47:05 And it's all made of cloudstone. 20:47:05 xD 20:47:11 Cloudstone YES 20:47:20 Phantom_Hoover: Sand falls, but cloudstone RISES. 20:47:30 You have to put stuff above it to stop it going above level 127 and evaporating. 20:47:34 (Canon: It becomes cloud.) 20:47:50 Phantom_Hoover: Putting cloudstone below sand makes an explosion, naturally. 20:47:54 Phantom_Hoover: (Or just swaps them.) 20:48:22 um 20:48:29 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f20n0/efficiency_of_making_coal_instead_of_mining_coal/ 20:48:29 help :( 20:48:30 elliott: 20:48:32 j-invariant: ? 20:49:19 elliott: the CPU level for minecraft is a whole load of .dat files, but in ~/.minecraft/saves it's all categorized into folders 20:49:26 maybe it's a version mismatch 20:49:42 j-invariant: you have to put it in a world directory 20:49:43 obviously 20:49:45 World[12345] 20:49:49 use an unused one 20:49:50 obviously 20:50:07 eah but World1 has folders like 0,1,1c etc 20:50:09 j-invariant: or do you mean the 0/ 1/ 1c/ etc. folders? 20:50:12 yeah 20:50:15 j-invariant: put the dat files in anyway, i think it'll auto-convert 20:50:16 when you load it 20:50:23 okay ill try it 20:52:28 ais523: I have individual change application and changeset application, what do you suggest I add next? I already have merging, right? since it's based into change application 20:52:42 elliott: you might want some more @'s in apply to share the tuples from the original line. also .Set.map needs a space after the . 20:53:13 oerjan: no, it doesn't, actually 20:53:17 but good catch, it should have one 20:53:27 and yeah, OK, I'll add more @s 20:53:29 still, it's quite ugly :( 20:53:33 "needs" in the pretty sense here 20:54:31 elliott, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u350uod6Xzo 20:54:35 well alas i don't know how to solve your ugly =='s problem 20:54:41 Arrow trap, but on FIRE. 20:55:16 so umm, server hasn't been updated or anything? 20:55:16 oerjan: http://sprunge.us/HIHO it's better now, thanks, but apply is still pretty ugly 20:55:26 oklopol: indeed 20:55:36 oerjan: the ==s aren't even the ugliest part, probably 20:55:37 okay, just heard something about some new stuff 20:55:51 oerjan: it's just that every case is very very similar 20:55:58 oerjan: and it irritates me that i can't fix the duplication 20:56:16 Phantom_Hoover: Dear god. Do they ... hurt more like that? 20:56:21 No. 20:56:30 There's no functional difference. 20:56:34 Phantom_Hoover: I'm still scared. Especially because of the door opening. 20:56:44 It's like, HI I NOTICED YOU, SO TAKE A LOOK AT HELL. 20:56:51 lol 20:57:12 @hoogle foldrM 20:57:13 Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b 20:57:18 wow it exists, yay 20:57:34 @hoogle (a->b-> m b) -> b -> [a] -> m b 20:57:35 Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b 20:57:35 Control.Monad zipWithM_ :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m c) -> [a] -> [b] -> m () 20:57:35 Control.Monad foldM :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> [b] -> m a 20:58:41 oerjan: is my ordering function inefficient? I use the changes themselves as the keys 20:58:43 which seems wonky 20:58:50 bah this is crap 20:58:55 I can#t load the CPU level 20:59:30 at least I managed not to destroy my own saved game 21:00:13 > zip [0..] [1,2,3,4] 21:00:15 [(0,1),(1,2),(2,3),(3,4)] 21:00:21 i'll use that for the keys i guess 21:03:47 * Sgeo wonders if anyone plays in WorldForge 21:04:13 oerjan: ugh, I can't use integers as the keys, because deps returns [Change] 21:04:20 and changes don't know about their list indices obviously 21:04:54 http://worldforge.org/dev/metaserver 21:05:02 There's 21 clients on one of the servers 21:06:58 brb 21:07:00 elliott: i'm not one to ask about efficiency optimization 21:07:36 Mushrooms cannot be grown? 21:07:43 that sucks I was going to grow some 21:08:19 sure they can 21:08:32 elliott: interesting i think most of your apply guards are equivalent to deps c `isPrefixOf` map fst line 21:09:59 *lines 21:12:40 copumpkin: i don't think so, i just happened to read a reddit mc thread in which allowing mushroom farming was suggested 21:12:59 (browsing r/all) 21:13:29 oh 21:14:48 it was pointed out that allowing this would make some other foods essentially useless 21:22:38 I wish there was a way to sleep 21:22:54 Minecraft: More than 500 sold <-- WTF??? 21:23:06 I thought it would be in the trillions by now 21:24:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:24:26 http://omnium-gatherum.appspot.com/pages/tile.html 21:24:30 do you think this is trivial? 21:24:53 or easy 21:25:15 62% packet loss to ineiros :/ 21:25:30 that seems to be what cause the lag in general 21:25:51 oklopol, lemme guess, it's an open problem. 21:27:02 :D 21:27:13 i think it's periodic, although i already closed my solution 21:28:20 actually took me quite a while because i figured it's aperiodic 21:28:28 because of "convince yourself" 21:29:27 also what's the smallest period you can get 21:29:33 i think i have the smallest possible 21:29:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:35:46 oklopol: I think I did it 21:37:37 elliott: interesting i think most of your apply guards are equivalent to deps c `isPrefixOf` map fst line 21:37:40 oerjan: oh that's intriguing 21:37:55 Minecraft: More than 500 sold <-- WTF??? 21:37:58 j-invariant: it's 1 million 21:37:59 as of lately 21:38:35 oerjan: do you think abusing that would be evil? :) 21:38:49 oerjan: the thing is that i'd have to pattern-match anyway, so it would just be weird... but i could do it as a subfunction 21:39:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:39:38 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 21:39:56 DIE SGEO_ DIE 21:40:27 oerjan: btw trying to replace or delete SOF/EOF should also be disallowed, but 21:44:09 j-invariant: periodic? what period? 21:44:47 oerjan: omg, it's insanely nice 21:44:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:45:03 and how many of each block do you use 21:45:12 in a repeating pattern 21:45:21 oerjan: http://sprunge.us/NKJI 21:45:31 oerjan: Now you tell me why that's incorrect :P 21:45:53 hm that erroneously accepts SOF/EOF as a change but whatever 21:46:15 actually given the symmetry of the blocs, neither of those tells me much 21:46:34 except maybe that great minds think alike 21:46:39 and me as well 21:47:23 *blocks 21:49:01 * Phantom_Hoover vaguely remembers reading somewhere that Red Dwarf survived in the BBC because the director general thought it was mocking SF, but can't remember where he heard it. 21:49:49 ah well it's broken so far 21:51:07 oerjan: so hey, what structures are Changes and [Line]s :D 21:51:09 are they FUNCTORS 21:51:57 i rely on oerjan to do all my thinking for me 21:52:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:52:30 Phantom_Hoover: The BBC is so strange. 21:52:57 elliott, the times fit too, since it was airing while Doctor Who was being cancelled. 21:55:21 elliott: Functors in String, probably 21:55:33 oerjan: boring! 21:55:44 oerjan: are they APPLICATIVE functors?!!?!!!!! 21:55:53 Hey the toaster changed shape by series 4! 21:56:04 SUCH A VIOLATION OF CONTINUITY CANNOT BE TOLERATED 21:56:23 oklopol: it has period 3 horizontally and period 4 vertically (with a shift of 1 block horizontally) 21:56:55 I wonder if there is a tiling with rotational symmetry 21:56:56 elliott: sounds awkward 21:57:14 oerjan: i just want to be a pseudomathematician and reek, like all haskellers are known to do 21:57:23 oerjan: sorry i forgot: also i want to be part of a cargo cult 21:57:26 so please give me structures that it is 21:57:30 even if i have to break the laws of those structures 21:57:41 elliott: someone said "cargomorphism" in #haskell and got banned 21:57:54 j-invariant: are you sure they were banned for _just_ that :p 21:58:01 well not just that 21:58:06 but it was the last straw on the camels back 21:58:13 j-invariant: was it that guy talking about a basic program 21:58:15 with line numbers! 21:58:18 no 21:58:19 and clearly i can't do it simply in haskell 21:58:20 ah 21:58:33 elliott: you probably want the Changeset case to be before the general one. could also put an SOF test there i think 21:58:37 #haskell used to be such a nice channel, but haskell's recent surge in popularity hasn't done it good :( 21:58:40 oerjan: yeah i did :P 21:59:15 :t isInfixOf 21:59:16 forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool 21:59:23 :t elem 21:59:24 forall a. (Eq a) => a -> [a] -> Bool 21:59:34 @pl (\c -> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c)) 21:59:34 ap ((||) . elem SOF . deps) (elem EOF . deps) 21:59:37 ugh 21:59:47 @pl (\c -> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c)) c 21:59:48 elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c) 21:59:52 xD 21:59:58 -!- Ahoalton has joined. 22:01:08 elliott: strictly speaking SOF and EOF shouldn't be allowed in the deps of a Change, should they? 22:01:19 heh someone on MO posted "question which, I suppose, is as easy as abc for an expert" 22:01:21 oerjan: (Insert "hello" SOF EOF) 22:01:28 oerjan: that inserts the line "hello" into the empty file 22:01:30 oh 22:01:40 oerjan: remember that it's blame-based: you insert things in-between _changes_ 22:01:44 elliott: so Insert is an exception... 22:01:44 and a line is identified by the change that created it 22:01:54 oerjan: oh... indeed... 22:02:06 oerjan: I have a feeling this SOF/EOF thing is crufty and could be improved, but ais at least hasn't thought of anything better 22:02:25 j-invariant: link? 22:02:28 j-invariant: i have period (4, 1) 22:02:35 ohh 22:02:46 yeah okay you explained both periods 22:03:07 i just gave the bigger one, i think we have the same one then 22:03:19 oklopol: it may be the smallest tiling then 22:03:31 elliott: http://mathoverflow.net/questions/52116/quadratic-forms-without-common-zeroes 22:04:15 uhh, what is this chan 22:04:20 and how did I wind up here? 22:04:22 what's a quadratic form :P 22:04:33 somehow i feel like i should remember the def 22:04:44 oklopol: linear combination of squares 22:04:45 Ahoalton: esoteric programming languages. except we're almost never on topic 22:04:56 I should invent an esoteric programming language 22:05:01 Ahoalton: spiritualism, mysticism, and magick! note: lies 22:05:11 we're actually a figment of your imagination 22:05:26 Ahoalton: otherwise, anything weird from programming or sometimes math 22:06:01 we're basically one big family that's constantly fighting and wishing certain members would die 22:06:06 having a constant christmas reunion 22:06:07 forever 22:06:13 and pretending to like each other 22:06:14 haha 22:06:24 elliott: hey we're not _that_ bad 22:06:24 :D 22:06:35 oerjan: well we wouldn't be, if only Vorpal choked on his own vomit! 22:06:37 what are esoteric programming languages? 22:06:45 I'll check teh wiki 22:06:51 Ahoalton: ones that you wouldn't want to actually, you know, use 22:07:22 j-invariant: quadratic form on F^5 means you have a quadratic form in 5 variables? 22:07:27 I like wolfram mathematica 22:07:35 anyone used the software? 22:07:56 Ahoalton: mathematica is the buggiest, slowest piece of rubbish ever 22:08:09 i used to use it when i had integration in my courses 22:08:36 yes 22:08:41 but i don't need that shit anymore so i don't really use mathematica either 22:08:49 j-invariant: i don't think that would be abc for an expert 22:08:54 Ahoalton: I write my own 22:09:08 i may be wrong ofc, but that seems like a nontrivial prob 22:09:23 Ahoalton: we have a guy in here that wolfram gave $25,000 to and even he hates mathematica :D 22:09:28 oklopol: it's a (consequence of a) really neat theorem 22:09:35 which version elliott it got better 22:09:42 Ahoalton: no it didn't, this was with 7 22:09:44 oklopol: The Chevally-Warning thing, the proof is pretty easy 22:09:50 oh whoops lol 22:09:50 oklopol: (I mean to read... not to come up with) 22:09:57 Ahoalton: i'm referring to the winner of http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html who is ais523 in here 22:10:09 j-invariant: i thought that was a *warning* for when he starts proving the thing :D 22:10:10 xD 22:10:13 lol 22:10:17 Ahoalton: warning, elliott is the resident channel cynic 22:10:19 Ahoalton: the wolfram guys gave him some mathematica code that reimplemented his submitted Perl, and it made mathematica crash, as in a segfault 22:10:31 oerjan: hey now, the fact that mathematica sucks is well-known :) 22:10:33 although some others seem to be converting 22:10:46 elliott: i'm speaking generally here 22:10:59 j-invariant: i guess i just don't know anything about multivariate stuff 22:11:02 ørjan 22:11:03 Ahoalton: warning, oerjan is the resident channel superstitious guy 22:11:04 lemme check proof 22:11:08 oerjan: speaking generally! 22:11:17 oklopol: http://math.uga.edu/~pete/4400ChevalleyWarning.pdf 22:11:17 elliott: O KAY 22:11:23 oerjan: >:D 22:11:34 oklopol: and the EGZ theorem is super cool 22:12:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:12:05 j-variant what is? 22:12:13 what is ? 22:12:20 EGZ thm 22:12:21 I used to write down maths homework half the time in LaTeX, the other half in a Mathematica notebook. It wasn't that bad for that, and at least you had it open for checking things. 22:12:24 j-invariant: what IS 22:12:28 is it in that paper? 22:12:31 elliott: :D 22:12:37 quintopia: yes 22:12:37 j-invariant: answer his question! 22:12:40 ah 22:12:42 what *is* 22:12:43 "what is?" "yes" 22:12:49 it all makes sense now 22:12:57 * elliott achieves nirvana 22:13:11 perhaps dropping my pronouns around you people is a bad idea 22:13:19 Ahoalton: you're on DIALUP? 22:13:23 are you a spane or something 22:13:25 sorry for being lazy but i am@typing on my phone so... 22:13:27 Ahoalton: my condolences 22:13:37 also i found out i can do it with gloves on 22:13:45 you mean rub your penis 22:14:07 no 22:14:11 the phone thing? 22:14:23 elliott: Maybe Level3 just already ran out of IP addresses and started reusing dialup-named ones. 22:14:27 i need both hands wide open to rub my penis 22:14:38 fizzie: :D 22:14:39 quintopia: If you have a collection of n different numbers, there is a subset of size <= 2n which sums to 0 (mod n) 22:14:49 quintopia: I need my arms 22:14:55 really inconvenient 22:15:06 actually < 22:15:11 j-invariant: isn't that a bit too much on the safe side? 22:15:12 so hey oerjan change the model so that insert isn't a special case : 22:15:16 oklopol: hm? 22:15:24 how do you know my connection elliott 22:15:27 (It's in their old 4.0.0.0/8 net, so you can't really tell much from the address.) 22:15:28 don't you just need n 22:15:30 j-invariant: mdaning multiset? 22:15:32 Ahoalton: it's in your /whoi 22:15:33 s 22:15:33 numbers 22:15:38 * [Ahoalton] (IceChat09@dialup-4.249.228.55.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net): The Chat Cool People Use 22:15:39 oklopol: oops! I meant n/2 22:15:41 not 2n 22:15:48 oh 22:15:52 makes more sense 22:15:57 quintopia: yeah sorry multiset 22:16:05 oh n/3 22:16:09 *n/2 22:16:12 oh right, well it works well 22:16:13 enough 22:16:20 so umm how about 1 n/2 times 22:16:22 no it really doesn't 22:16:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:16:24 if it's a multiset 22:16:27 unless you like, use gopher 22:16:30 oh the subset is 22:16:31 a multiset 22:16:32 for what I do it does 22:16:39 Ahoalton: use gopher? 22:16:39 I can do everything but watch videos 22:16:44 oklopol: you need n different numbers in the multiset 22:16:45 what the hell is gopher 22:16:46 read man 22:16:58 Ahoalton: like the web except usable on dialup and also useless 22:17:17 but umm 22:17:21 uhh, no I use firefox and the normal internet with noscript and adblock 22:17:25 makes things faster 22:17:26 so just take any number n times? 22:17:34 can someone state the problem without errors? 22:17:35 Ahoalton: right, so loading google.com prolly only takes you about 4 minutes? 22:17:47 and I can even torrent, if not slowly a 22:17:53 and google isn't slow 22:18:19 torrent??? like what 22:18:21 Google's rather bandwith-optimized, for obvious reasons. 22:18:23 i can't imagine torrenting anything on dialup 22:18:23 oklopol: i assume it is in the linked paper 22:18:25 maybe like 22:18:26 10 jpegs 22:18:32 that could be torrentable 22:18:54 oerjan: hey i can do a HACK 22:18:58 oerjan: | dps == [SOF} || dps == [EOF] 22:19:02 oerjan: since non-Insert deps lists are only one long 22:19:03 *] 22:19:04 :DDDDD 22:19:09 ya'll are annoying, 22:19:10 bye 22:19:10 elliott: they don't call them torrents. 22:19:12 -!- Ahoalton has left (?). 22:19:18 ever heard of "bittrickle"? 22:19:22 yay, another newbie scared away 22:19:29 at least that one didn't know what esolangs are 22:19:37 quintopia: bitdrip 22:20:23 what was he even asking for? 22:20:37 quintopia: nothing 22:20:41 okay so 22:20:41 he just came in and then asked how the hell he got here 22:20:44 and then defended mathematica 22:20:46 Anyway, dialup's not *that* slow, I think I used to get something like 30-40 kbps from the theoretically-56k connection. 22:20:46 there was no n/2 i suppose 22:20:47 and asked what esolangs are 22:20:51 and USED DIALUP 22:21:01 elliott: And then you ANNOYED him away. 22:21:12 fizzie: he said YA'LL, not ELLIOTT 22:21:18 i blame quintopia personally 22:21:27 Hmm... Hash function that blows up if you feed 65536YiB to it in one message... Meh. 22:21:31 It was the non-royal ya'll, meaning "you", in this particular case "just you". 22:21:35 yes it was definitely my fault 22:21:36 Ilari: Oh no, how horrible :P 22:21:40 isn't it always 22:21:49 * quintopia scurries away 22:21:51 fizzie: The non-royal ya'll... the most USELESS WORD EVER 22:22:03 The only purpose of y'all existing is to be a plural you :P 22:22:39 if all y'all think that, elliott 22:22:41 ya'll is short for "ya will" i.e. "you will" 22:22:49 :D 22:22:58 Deewiant: True, I will indeed are annoying at some point. 22:23:44 22:24 < oerjan> if all y'all think that, elliott 22:23:46 oops 22:23:47 y'all yell a lot 22:23:51 Ilari: That compares favorably to SHA-1/SHA-2, which both have a maximum message length of 2^64-1 bits, i.e. 2 EiB (minus one bit). 22:23:57 j-invariant: STOP COPYING OUR MESSAGES 22:24:22 (Well, SHA-256 variant of SHA-2; SHA-512 has 2^128-1 bits.) 22:24:23 IT'S INFRINGEDEMENT 22:24:24 (although it is certainly obvious floor(n/2) works) 22:25:14 oerjan: hey why isn't there a name for foldr . reverse (modulo making that correct) 22:25:32 elliott: foldl 22:25:38 oerjan: i.e. if i have a list of changes [a,b,c,d] and a must come before b, b must come before c, etc., then the right thing is "foldrM apply xs (reverse listOfChanges)" 22:25:41 j-invariant: er not really? 22:26:00 is it? 22:26:00 hm 22:26:07 who knows 22:26:26 > foldl (flip f) end [a,b,c,d] 22:26:28 Not in scope: `end' 22:26:31 > foldl (flip f) x [a,b,c,d] 22:26:34 f d (f c (f b (f a x))) 22:26:39 :DDD 22:26:44 j-invariant: is n/2 optimal? 22:26:57 for distinct numbers 22:26:59 oklopol: well the theorem says you have 2n-1 things, and there is a subsequence of size at most n 22:27:13 oklopol: if it's optimal it will be optimal on oen of the prime numbers 22:27:19 I haven't checked myself 22:27:58 elliott: looks like one of the rare possible uses for foldl rather than foldl' 22:28:05 :t foldl 22:28:06 :t foldl' 22:28:06 forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a 22:28:07 forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a 22:28:11 oerjan: hm why 22:28:20 oerjan: i guess it might be marginally more efficient 22:28:22 elliott: non-strictness 22:28:25 oerjan: if a change overwrites another change? 22:28:31 oerjan: ? 22:28:46 elliott: oh well then maybe you want foldl' anyhow 22:28:53 or not... 22:28:55 oerjan: well i just wonder why you think foldl would help 22:28:58 vs foldl' 22:29:16 elliott: well i mean for that foldr ... . reverse thing in general 22:29:26 ah 22:29:30 Not to mention that hashing even a 1PiB in single message would take a fast computer with a fast hash algorithm about 24 days... 22:29:34 oerjan: foldl' just makes me feel bad in general 22:29:38 oerjan: actually so does foldl 22:29:43 it just seems wrong 22:29:52 oerjan: note that in this case it's _actually_ foldM 22:29:55 oerjan: because applies can fail 22:30:07 oerjan: so I think it's already the equivalent of foldl' 22:30:09 @src foldM 22:30:09 foldM _ a [] = return a 22:30:10 foldM f a (x:xs) = f a x >>= \fax -> foldM f fax xs 22:30:18 lol @ fax as arg nam 22:30:18 e 22:30:20 *name 22:30:36 elliott, in your opinion, does making a language easier to implement make it worth crippling the language? 22:30:47 Sgeo: No. Never. 22:30:50 Erm, by easier, I think he means nicer 22:30:57 Sgeo, ...why on earth would that be worthwhile. 22:31:02 Sgeo: Well, unless it's to make a theoretical model. 22:31:06 Sgeo: Who, what language, and what crippling? 22:31:09 You want a language to use, not to stare at the interpreter. 22:31:16 OK, so esolangs exempt. 22:31:22 http://raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/atomo/today.txt 22:31:30 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:31:38 Sgeo: Another exception: Toy languages like Atomo. 22:31:41 But most implemented esolangs *are* an interpreter. 22:31:57 Sgeo: i.e., if you're just exploring the design space, you can do whatever. 22:32:03 And generally implementation ease wins out there. 22:32:12 Incidentally, the word "isoblorphism" 22:32:26 *turned up in my head, and I want to know what it's supposed to mean. 22:32:34 Am I misinterpreting what he's saying? 22:32:35 elliott: hm yeah it's foldl' except in the rare case where you can deduce a Nothing as the result from only the outer part of it 22:32:48 Sgeo: I don't know, I don't know Atomo. 22:32:52 Sgeo: Summarise. 22:33:19 oerjan: can you make ais appear here 22:33:23 i need to ask him qs about scapegoat! 22:33:23 He removed the ability to change an object's delegate so that the implementation becomes much nicer 22:33:33 Ilari: How did you arrive to that number? Because I went by Skein, which reportedly does 500 GiB/s on a 3.1 GHz x64 Core 2 Duo, and that gives 1*1024*1024/0.5/60/60/24 ~ 24.27, which is suspiciously similar. 22:33:36 elliott: or wait, the definition of foldM makes that foldl' for Maybes 22:33:49 Sgeo: If changing delegates is a Bad Thing to do anyway, then it's a good decision. 22:33:54 Sgeo: I suspect it is a bad decision. 22:33:57 s/GiB/MiB/ 22:34:09 (500 gigabytes/sec would be pretty impressive.) 22:34:34 http://files.slatelanguage.org/doc/pmd/talk.pdf argues that the ability to change delegates is a very, very good thing 22:34:48 Mutation is always bad. 22:34:51 So no, no it isn't 22:34:51 Store a piece of state as "which ancestor" instead of as a slot on the object 22:34:53 *isn't. 22:35:17 Sgeo: no, he wrote another toy language, "Atomy", with a much simpler model for objects, then backported the changes 22:35:30 Goddamn it, why are there no Linux browsers with built-in PDF readers. 22:35:36 Phantom_Hoover: Chrome. 22:35:42 Phantom_Hoover: Its built-in reader renders text really badly though. 22:35:54 Mathnerd314, uh? 22:36:00 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 22:36:15 Mathnerd314: i see no evidence for that 22:36:37 elliott: ask him yourself. 22:37:04 Mathnerd314: considering that his github has no atomy repo, and you haven't provided any sort of evidence at all, I don't see why I should 22:37:08 did he tell you that, or osmething? 22:37:09 elliott, it doesn't seem to... 22:37:10 *something? 22:37:10 elliott: https://bitbucket.org/alex/atomy/ 22:37:19 When I click on links to PDFs, it downloads as normal. 22:37:22 ugh, bitbucket 22:37:33 Phantom_Hoover: by chrome, do you mean Debian's chromium package? 22:37:37 I bet it doesn't come with the pdf reader 22:37:43 anyone here like beer? 22:37:45 Phantom_Hoover: it's a bad reader though, I don't recommend it, text is really ugly 22:37:46 Yes. Is it terribly outdated or crippled? 22:37:55 Phantom_Hoover: Uh, it's fairly outdated I think. 22:38:03 Since Chrome gets updated roughly every millisecond. 22:38:12 (Silently, and automatically, like Minecraft!) 22:38:13 beer? anyone? 22:38:17 (OK, not really.) 22:38:20 quintopia: nope! 22:38:27 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:38:32 i know you don't 22:38:38 just providin' a data point 22:38:56 datum is shorter 22:39:09 your face is shorter. 22:39:12 than a datum. 22:39:16 my face has a beer 22:39:23 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how to most effectively compress music to fit in MC music circuits. 22:39:25 your beer is a datum. 22:39:29 Phantom_Hoover: mp3! 22:39:31 PRACTICAL 22:39:32 (and a beard but that is irrelevant) 22:39:38 Phantom_Hoover: Oh my god, let's wire one up to the CPU. 22:39:43 Phantom_Hoover: IT MUST BE DONE 22:39:43 Well, we're talking note-level. 22:39:50 * oerjan likes the occasional beer but hasn't had one for months 22:40:13 elliott, have you *seen* the time that thing takes per iteration? 22:40:15 I'd buy you a beer 22:40:24 if you would promise not to swat me 22:40:24 Phantom_Hoover: IT'D BE A VERY SLOW SONG 22:40:35 Phantom_Hoover: Do the rendition of the Lincolnshire Poacher heard on the numbers station of the same name. 22:40:42 Phantom_Hoover: It creeps me out. Like a creeper. 22:40:43 quintopia: i don't like beer _that_ much 22:40:49 WTFAD 22:40:50 ha 22:40:54 * oerjan whistles innocently 22:40:56 Well, we're talking note-level. <-- some MIDI? 22:40:59 fizzie: I used bit higher clock rate (i7 can have one) and 6 clocks per byte. 22:41:08 Phantom_Hoover: In fact, make it activated by a pressure plate, and surround your house with them, so that when a creeper steps on them, it plays it. 22:41:10 Has people smelling clean sheets, then narrator says they were washed 7 days ago 22:41:16 How is that interesting?/ 22:41:17 Vorpal, dunno, just as in sheet music. 22:41:19 Phantom_Hoover, though a different scheme is probably better 22:41:19 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poacher.ogg 22:41:24 Sure, maybe after 7 days of regular use, etc. 22:42:09 sgeo: it's a commentary on people who like the smell of sweat 22:42:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 22:45:20 Ilari: Well, Skein is also described a 6.1 clocks/byte; does something else do 6? 22:46:21 Some other implementation reportedly did 5.99. 22:46:59 on what operation? 22:47:14 skein. 22:47:19 quintopia: i like beer 22:47:42 i almost never drink it 22:48:01 what does skein even mean? 22:48:10 quintopia: It's one of the SHA-3 contest hash functions. 22:48:21 Quite likely to win. 22:48:23 quintopia, a measure of wool? 22:48:25 oh 22:48:29 got it 22:48:53 I feel tempted to say "Schneier's one", but it *does* have other authors, and I don't want to slight them. 22:49:12 speaking of contests, I haven't checked up on the netflix prize in almost a year.... 22:49:36 Didn't they already award it to someone? 22:49:48 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 22:50:05 i dunno. like i said...haven't checked 22:50:44 "On September 18, 2009, Netflix announced team "BellKor's Pragmatic Chaos" as the prize winner, and the prize was awarded to the team in a ceremony on September 21, 2009.[22] "The Ensemble" team had in fact succeeded to match BellKor's result, but since BellKor submitted their results 20 minutes earlier, the rules award the prize to them." 22:50:46 ineiros: ping. 22:50:51 What a dramatic moment. 22:51:12 ha 22:51:18 that's a close call 22:51:29 have they started a new one? 22:52:31 No. 22:52:53 Legal troubles. 22:52:55 well i assume they have implemented that algorithm on their servers now 22:52:57 "In the past few months, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) asked us how a Netflix Prize sequel might affect Netflix members' privacy, and a lawsuit was filed by KamberLaw LLC pertaining to the sequel." 22:52:58 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:53:04 "In light of all this, we have decided to not pursue the Netflix Prize sequel that we announced on August 6, 2009." 22:53:23 I think I remember reading about the lawsuit, but not that they decided to cancel the new competition. 22:53:44 as i recall, all their test data were anonymouse 22:53:54 Well, anonymized to some degree. 22:54:01 It's always arguable how much of that can be done. 22:54:02 why would the sequel dompromise privacy' 22:54:25 They were worried about the first contest already. 22:54:37 Some people identified particular users by cross-correlating against IMDB ratings. 22:54:48 anonymized inasmuch as they removed all references to actual people and randomize some of the data 22:54:58 oh 22:55:00 weird 22:55:34 "The ratings of less-popular films, coupled with the dates they're rated, form a kind of movie-preference fingerprint that can be used to make matches, the researchers concluded." 22:56:03 They can't add too much random noise before their data set goes too far from the real data for sensible algorithm evaluation and such. 22:56:09 oh shit. ghey can find out what movies people like! 22:56:20 it's an invasion of privacy 22:56:28 they might like /porn/! 22:56:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:56:56 Well, yes, indeed. 22:56:56 okay phone is dying 22:56:58 bye 22:57:04 So. Minecraft is really, really, really addictive. 22:57:21 pikhq: Told you. 22:57:22 I don't find it tat bad 22:57:22 I think also Netflix people may have said in their Terms that they won't tell other people what they're renting. 22:57:25 it's a lot of fun though 22:57:27 pikhq: You've had it for, what, 3 hours? :P 22:57:40 elliott: Guess how long I've been playing it! 22:57:48 pikhq: SEVEN HOURS? 22:57:58 04:39:30 does the minecraft world wrap around? 22:57:58 04:39:37 ilke a donus 22:58:02 this reminds me, I should be playing minecraft 22:58:05 j-invariant: dunno, why not walk to the edge and find out :D 22:58:16 elliott: You are an evil man. 22:58:17 elliott: I thought I hade looped but turns out I just went in a circle 22:58:19 It's clearly an Orbital. 22:58:22 j-invariant: LOL 22:58:28 j-invariant: it has 4x the surface area of the earth 22:58:34 j-invariant: you will nevereverever find the edgee 22:58:35 *edge 22:58:36 EVER 22:58:44 if you walked for real-world years constantly ... still no 22:58:59 Not without our top-secret SMP teleporter. 22:59:07 Phantom_Hoover: yeah then it'd just lag forever 22:59:08 elliott: Don't they always say 8x? 22:59:09 one thing which sucks is I can't leave minecraft running the background while I am here on IRC 22:59:13 fizzie: er maybe 22:59:15 j-invariant: yes you can? 22:59:47 j-invariant: btw re: source code, minecraft is "open" in that decompiling java produces something almost identical to the original code minus variable names, and there's a bunch of batch files (apparently with a shell script version) that deobfuscate most of the class, variable and method names 22:59:50 and you can use this for modding 22:59:58 05:21:47 4.27 m/s, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Transportation 23:00:02 fizzie: Scale that to the Minecraft day. 23:00:05 elliott: geez he should just release the code :P 23:00:07 fizzie: i.e., 20 minutes vs. 24 hours 23:00:20 *17 minutes 23:00:24 j-invariant: Yeah, well, Asteroids II will come with full Amber source code. 23:01:06 Phantom_Hoover: um? 23:01:09 Phantom_Hoover: the days are 20 minutes 23:01:29 Nights are 7. Days are 10. 23:01:35 Phantom_Hoover: Sunrise/set are 1.5 each. 23:01:37 And dusk/dawn are the other 3. 23:01:37 See http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Day/night_cycle. 23:01:39 Right. 23:01:43 = 20. 23:01:48 one thing which sucks is I can't leave minecraft running the background while I am here on IRC 23:01:49 j-invariant: why not? 23:02:01 fizzie: Phantom_Hoover: Gem from that page: "Actual time of Sunset will not change if the texture for the sun is changed. The day/night cycle will be the same length with the same effects even if the sun is visibly larger or smaller." 23:02:02 O RLY 23:03:38 I wish you could put a collar around animals so they don't disappear 23:03:48 ubuntu is getting really great lately 23:03:52 10.10 is very polished 23:03:53 elliott, well that doesn't seem too insane really. Maybe texture packs should be able to provide a parameter for it 23:04:17 Phantom_Hoover: OMG 23:04:18 hellworld 23:04:18 This option has shown up in the 0.2.2_01 release. 23:04:18 Valid values: 23:04:18 true - the server will behave like The Nether; red sky, zombie pigmen and ghasts spawning. The map will stay the same, however, so don't set this flag if you don't want pigmen stomping all over your flower garden. 23:04:28 Phantom_Hoover: You can get red sky, zombie pigmen, and ghasts on a normal map. 23:04:31 That would be ... so amazing 23:04:41 Oh look: 23:04:41 online-mode 23:04:41 Server checks connecting players against minecraft's account database. Only set this to false if your server is not connected to the Internet. Hackers with fake accounts can connect if this is set to false! 23:04:42 Valid values: 23:04:42 true - Enabled. The server will assume it has an Internet connection and check every player. 23:04:43 false - Disabled. The server will not attempt to check connecting players. 23:04:45 You don't even need a mod. 23:05:02 of course not. But to provide any level of security you do 23:05:03 elliott, is this *official*? 23:05:12 Phantom_Hoover: It's in server.properties, at least. 23:05:18 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Server.properties 23:05:27 Jeb is the best thing to happen to MC since forever. 23:05:35 05:25:39 Phantom_Hoover: He wanted to be the guy who's been furthest away from spawn, so I was computerizing how much walking would it take to get to (100k,100k). 23:05:38 Phantom_Hoover, online-mode would allow me to log in as you and dump your inventory in one of my chests for example. And that thing has been around for ages. 23:05:39 oklopol: me and Phantom_Hoover have been there. 23:05:53 Phantom_Hoover: I don't think that's new. 23:05:54 Psssht. 23:06:16 SHUTUPFACTSCAN'TDISSUADEMYJEBFANBOYISM 23:06:58 Phantom_Hoover: Jeb still WORKS FOR NOTCH and ostensibly agrees with his main opinions. 23:07:04 Phantom_Hoover: And didn't veto the switch from git to svn. 23:07:05 elliott: Well, 4.27 blocks/IRL-second → 4.27/72 game-metres/game-second → 213.5 metres/hour. Okay, that's not a very fast walk. 23:07:07 Do not like him too much. 23:07:24 fizzie: 0.1 mph :D 23:07:41 fizzie: You have verified my theory that everything in the Minecraft world is really, really slow and we just view it from a zoom lens. 23:07:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:08:23 elliott, but you hate git now...? 23:08:25 elliott: Well, minecarts can travel up to 0.25 mph. 23:08:28 Is there a mathematical proof that a programming language cannot be both turing-complete and reversible? 23:08:55 fizzie: ZOMG 23:08:57 zzo38: No, because it can be. 23:09:12 fizzie, and in km/h? 23:09:27 (I forgot the conversion factor for that) 23:09:48 elliott: It is what I thought, yes it can be both. 23:11:03 Vorpal: 0.4 km/h. 23:11:46 (28.8 km/h if you count metres in game-blocks but time in IRL terms.) 23:11:57 Someone mentioned a proof: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:2D-Reverse 23:12:51 pikhq: The Art of Computer Programming, Volume 4A: Combinatorial Algorithms, Part I, has been released. 23:13:27 *Part 1 23:13:35 j-invariant: hey is that the book you were referring to? 23:13:46 j-invariant: of course you should by TAoCP! all of it! NOWWWW 23:14:05 Should I get TAoCP? 23:14:27 I do not have it but I would like to buy it too. 23:14:49 Amazon sells a reasonably priced reasonably pretty box of TAoCP 1-3. 23:14:54 zzo38: there are turing equivalent reverseible prorgamming languages 23:15:19 zzo38: there is also a notation of "reversibly turing complete" which means it does not store its whole execution trace (while still being reversible) 23:15:37 Phantom_Hoover: YES. (Note: It costs like £100 for the box set.) 23:15:43 fizzie, hm 23:16:00 For Volume 4, I think I'll wait until they sell a box with at least 4A, 4B and 4C. 23:16:02 Random things that immensely annoy me about Doctor Who part n: how many times is humanity going to make first contact? 23:16:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:16:26 j-invariant: I expect 2D-Reverse is reversible and turing-complete. 23:16:42 Phantom_Hoover: :D 23:16:46 Is it? 23:16:59 Phantom_Hoover: I like how everyone acts completely normally even though aliens have been shown to definitely exist, rather dramatically. 23:17:05 Phantom_Hoover: Nobody ever talks about them. Ever. 23:17:08 Heh, Amazon already has a Volume 1-4A box (for pre-order). 23:17:18 elliott, except when it's a plot point, naturally. 23:17:39 olsner: "ridiculous. ant/nant is already the ultimate build system." --actual person expressing actual, non-sarcastic opinion 23:17:55 It got particularly ridiculous when noöne bothered to tell Donna that she had missed about 3 alien invasions. 23:18:46 http://www.amazon.com/Art-Computer-Programming-Volumes-Boxed/dp/0201485419/ -- this is the version I have, and it's sort-of reasonably priced; but of course if you don't have volumes 1-3, the new box -- http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Programming-Volumes-1-4A-Boxed/dp/0321751043/ -- probably has updates in 1-3 too. (Since it's called "third edition" and all.) 23:19:33 I wish ais was here so I could ask if all changesets should just be stored topographically sorted to avoid recomputing, or if there's some reason why that can't work. 23:19:33 "Anything happen while I was away?" "Well, some aliens invaded and killed a bunch of people, but that's old news." 23:20:12 Phantom_Hoover: You're forgetting the part where the Earth got TRANSPORTED TO ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM, which apparently made the sky transparent for some reason. 23:20:18 Or was Donna there for that? 23:20:21 Point is, nobody's mentioned it since. 23:20:27 elliott, erm, the sky kind of is transparent. 23:20:35 Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes. 23:20:39 If there was another planet nearby in the sky, we'd see it clearly. 23:20:42 Phantom_Hoover: But I mean, it became black with planets dotted in it. 23:20:50 Phantom_Hoover: *Yes*, but there was a suspicious lack of *blue*. 23:21:10 elliott, there wasn't exactly a star nearby. 23:21:17 Phantom_Hoover: Err, wasn't there? 23:21:30 Not IIRC. 23:21:34 Oh. 23:21:39 The rest of my line still stands. 23:22:39 The bit about everyone forgetting and going about their lives? 23:22:40 elliott, I now know what causes the lag to ineiros. Packet loss. 23:23:00 Vorpal had finally solved the greatest problem of his existence. 23:23:26 * Sgeo ponders redownloading ... those links elliott mentioned 23:23:46 Phantom_Hoover, did I claim that...? 23:23:56 Phantom_Hoover, where did you get that idea from 23:24:00 Vorpal, nowhere. 23:24:08 BACK TO THE AMNESIA OF DOCTOR WHO CHARACTERS 23:24:18 To be fair, they do poke fun at it. 23:24:40 But the timeline and continuity is irrevocably screwed up, probably because RTD is a grade-A idiot. 23:24:44 4A has a pretty limited topic (7.1 zeros and ones, incl. 7.1.3 bitwise tricks and techniques, plus 7.2.1 combinatorial generators), leaving many juicy bits (7.3 shortest paths, 7.4 graph algos, 7.5 network algos, etc.) for volumes 4B, 4C, ...; even given that it manages to be 912 pages. So my guess is it's rather knuthian in depth. 23:25:32 Phantom_Hoover: They should devote two whole series to reconstructing the timeline. 23:25:33 Like DC Comics. 23:25:39 elliott, even then. 23:25:52 Consider that it can't possibly be in sync with the real-world time. 23:26:35 Phantom_Hoover: Have it start with the "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" speech from Blink! 23:26:39 That solves everything 23:26:55 Doctor Who quite clearly has 2D time. 23:27:24 elliott, your links don't work 23:27:33 Sgeo: Yes they do. 23:27:38 Erm 23:27:49 As in, trying to use the downloaded files doens't work 23:28:21 Sgeo: They do if you have a friend who's willing to let you access their MC account once. 23:28:23 Heh, from Knuth's page: "Volume 5, Syntactic Algorithms, in preparation: 9. Lexical scanning (includes also string search and data compression); 10. Parsing techniques. Estimated to be ready by 2020." Well, he certainly is optimistic. 23:28:26 Ask KTAT 23:28:28 "Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute from .." 23:28:46 fizzie: He has discovered the Fountain of Youth. 23:28:47 "After Volume 5 has been completed, I will revise Volumes 1--3 again to bring them up to date. In particular, the new material for those volumes that has been issued in beta-test fascicles will be incorporated at that time. 23:28:48 Then I will publish a ``reader's digest'' edition of Volumes 1--5, condensing the most important material into a single book. 23:28:48 And after Volumes 1--5 are done, God willing, I plan to publish Volume 6 (the theory of context-free languages) and Volume 7 (Compiler techniques), but only if the things I want to say about those topics are still relevant and still haven't been said." That's probably around 2100 or so, then. 23:29:02 C:\Users\Sgeo\Downloads\MinecraftNew\minecraft.jar" 23:29:21 elliott, *KT-AT 23:29:40 Phantom_Hoover: Ktat. 23:29:43 Sgeo: Fail. 23:29:50 It goes in %APPDATA%\.minecraft\bin. 23:30:03 And you need Minecraft.jar (uppercase M) from the minecraft.net site (placed anywhere) to launch it. 23:30:43 Why is there a Minecraft.jar and a minecraft.jar? 23:30:50 Notch-quality naming scheme 23:30:52 ? 23:31:18 Does the Minecraft.jar have to be up to date? 23:31:29 Uh, it's a free download. 23:32:27 what will happen to my alpha save? 23:32:32 Should I just delete it? 23:32:41 Sgeo: It will work fine. 23:32:55 More grievances with Doctor Who: what was with everyone acting like everything was fine after they rewound time in the series 3 finale? 23:33:00 * Sgeo is happy that he won't need to go coal hunting 23:33:08 Sgeo: Um, you'll need to mine. 23:33:10 The people still *died*, you stupid twats. 23:33:11 And mining of any sort = tons of coal. 23:33:40 I don't strictly speaking need to mine, if I'm fine being bored on the surface the whole time 23:33:43 >.> 23:33:48 Just because you've pulled yourselves out of the situation doesn't magically fix everything. 23:33:49 But it means I won't need to rush to get coal 23:34:06 Sgeo: If you're not on Peaceful, you need to mine to get the stuff you need to not die. 23:35:28 Or you can just avoid things that kill you. 23:35:43 Or you can cower in a hole in a cliffside like I do. 23:35:45 elliott, shelter, lighting, what else? 23:36:10 Sgeo: I'm way ahead of you: I *won* Minecraft. 23:36:18 Sgeo: How to win Minecraft: 23:36:21 Find a hill made out of dirt. 23:36:33 Take two blocks, one above the other, starting at ground level, from the hill. 23:36:35 Walk inside. 23:36:41 Place them just in front of you, looking outwards. 23:36:55 Congratulations, you have mined two blocks, placed two blocks, and are in an invincible shelter. 23:36:59 Monsters can never harm you. 23:37:00 You Win! 23:37:07 (Yes, I did this.) 23:37:17 Unless you want to enjoy yourself. 23:37:32 Sgeo, you can also use the patented HHI Airbase. 23:37:36 Well, yeah, but it's the winning that's important. 23:37:39 Phantom_Hoover: DON'T REVEAL THE PLANS. 23:37:42 They are state secrets. 23:37:57 Phantom_Hoover: BTW, if the airbase gets big enough, we'll need a ceiling (glass, probably); otherwise monsters will spawn like 40 blocks away. 23:37:59 Sgeo: Or you can just put it on peaceful and mine the fuck out of everything. 23:38:14 pikhq: Peaceful single-player is rather boring most of the time. 23:38:18 elliott, erm, lighting? 23:38:27 Phantom_Hoover: Well, sure. 23:38:34 Phantom_Hoover: Or... MAKE THE AIRBASE OUT OF STEPS 23:38:37 My mouse will STILL not stay in the window 23:38:40 AKA a trivial requirement? 23:38:48 * Sgeo gives up for now 23:39:02 Sgeo: Your computer is broken. 23:39:05 Phantom_Hoover: ? 23:39:12 elliott, lighting. 23:39:13 Sgeo: What OS? 23:39:14 Phantom_Hoover: Right. 23:39:20 Windows 23:39:31 Sgeo: Not helpful. 23:39:32 Sgeo: What OS? 23:39:37 Windows 7 23:39:49 Sgeo: What JVM? 23:39:55 Um 23:40:08 Hold on 23:40:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:46 C:\Users\Sgeo>java -version 23:41:46 java version "1.6.0_22" 23:41:46 Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_22-b04) 23:41:46 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 17.1-b03, mixed mode) 23:42:30 Sgeo: Screenshot of Minecraft running? 23:42:39 With your mouse inside the window. 23:42:42 And clicking. 23:43:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:43:07 Incidentally, the .minecraft is an amalgamation of those files and nooga's source's files 23:43:10 That's probably it 23:43:22 But I don't know how to fix it 23:43:45 Sgeo, buy the game 23:43:47 that fixes it 23:43:54 Vorpal, I intend to soon 23:43:57 (the amalgation of files) 23:44:08 amalgamation* 23:44:16 I am very happy to have bought it, it was well worth it 23:44:40 Sgeo, and I'm sure ineiros will let you on then. Even if elliott will hate that. 23:45:03 j-invariant, the only issue is the addiction. But I guess Sgeo has that already 23:45:05 elliott wants me on so I can do drudge work 23:45:30 Sgeo, refuse to once you get on and instead go build some awesome thing some distance away :) 23:46:13 I have a boring idea 23:46:22 Sgeo, oh? 23:46:25 Binary 23:46:31 Sgeo, binary what? 23:47:14 One block, then to the left block above air, then to the left, block block, then to the left, block air air, etc 23:47:15 Sgeo, better idea: build a houseboat as your base. Won't be able to move yet (perhaps if we get movecraft!). But awesome 23:48:09 ...so? 23:48:21 elliott, I did say my idea was boring 23:48:22 can you build cars of some sort in movecraft 23:48:35 oklopol: if they hover in the air, i guess 23:48:41 oklopol: it empties chests though 23:48:54 elliott, that will likely be fixed soon 23:48:56 When will it not empty chests? 23:48:59 I spoke to the authors 23:49:02 author* 23:49:13 movecraft is cool, and getting cooler every day 23:49:17 Is it possible to use water to get down from any height safely?/ 23:49:25 Sgeo, yes 23:49:28 :D 23:49:33 Sgeo, 2 deep pool at the bottom 23:49:37 Sgeo, 1 deep won't work 23:49:43 Um 23:49:46 Sgeo, you need 2 deep or deeper 23:49:50 If you don't have access to the bottom? 23:49:58 And are spilling the water from a height? 23:50:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:50:05 Sgeo, I guess you could carefully go down a waterfall 23:50:08 is it theoretically impossible to get down safely from a single block up in the air? 23:50:10 How do normal people get down from a scaffold? 23:50:10 i think so 23:50:24 oklopol, not if you have a bucket of water with you 23:50:27 oklopol: hmm 23:50:28 oklopol: no 23:50:29 oklopol: of course not 23:50:32 oklopol: sand 23:50:40 -!- Behold has joined. 23:50:43 Sgeo, you walk down it if you built it that way 23:50:46 sneak to the edge of the block, place one sand, run back onto the block so you don't fall 23:50:50 repeat until there's a full tower 23:50:51 using just dirt, that was kinda important 23:50:52 step on 23:50:53 Sgeo, or if it is a 1x1 pillar then you dig down 23:50:54 destroy sand below you 23:51:03 oklopol: are we to assume that there is no terrain nearby? 23:51:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:51:23 all terrain in the world is 10 lower than you 23:51:31 obviously you can move arbitrarily far at your height 23:51:36 Sgeo: yes, you can use water to get down. you can even remove the water and dirt first 23:51:45 assuming you have an infinite amount of dirt at least 23:51:47 place water, step on water, carefully remove dirt, bucket water, follow stream down 23:51:56 oklopol: trivially impossible then afaics 23:52:27 What dirt? 23:52:29 oklopol, if all terrain is 10 below you 23:52:38 oklopol, then built out until you are above 2 deep water 23:52:42 oklopol, then jump down 23:52:54 oklopol, I think elliott has me on ignore so tell him I solved it 23:52:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:52:55 obviously all that terrain is dirt 23:53:00 Sgeo: if you're on one block of dirt 23:53:07 oklopol, not obviously. You didn't say that :P 23:53:21 oklopol: maybe if you remove the dirt block below you, wait until you're in placing-range of the terrain below, then rapid-fire :D 23:53:29 well that's the natural question 23:53:31 If you follow a stream down, and it ends up not being 2 deep at the bottom 23:53:33 you'd only fall 4 blocks, if you can place blocks instantly 23:53:38 elliott: 10 is enough to forbid that 23:53:39 elliott, I don't think that will work 23:53:43 oklopol: no it isn't 23:53:46 by a couple blocks 23:53:46 oklopol: you can place from 6 blocks 23:53:49 so fall 4 blocks 23:53:49 erm 23:53:50 place madly 23:53:53 4 hurts 23:53:56 until there's a block below you 23:53:57 oklopol: it does? 23:54:00 i think so 23:54:00 yes 23:54:03 test it :p 23:54:10 3 does not hurt. 4 does 23:54:11 that's why 10. that's a lie, i just chose it arbitrarily. 23:54:41 fizzie: "Bees, bees, bees, bees!" --slogan 23:54:48 what i was thinking was something crazy like jumping down so you can start putting stuff under your original block, but obviously you still can't put a block under yourself... 23:55:06 * Sgeo attempts to examine schedules again 23:55:11 And trying not to go mad 23:56:17 hah: http://i.imgur.com/uWV6r.jpg 23:56:22 Phantom_Hoover logreading: Bad thing about skybase: Respawning often offsets you enough that you fall to your death. 23:57:47 Vorpal: haha 23:58:09 so if you have sand and dirt, you can actually reach any cell from any cell 23:58:21 starting and ending on top of single block 23:58:23 without tower 23:58:29 j-invariant, also this is seriously cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPVYrltke4 23:58:36 a bit glitchy in the middle 23:58:38 but still 23:58:47 oklopol: well er... maybe 23:58:52 i don't see how you could get up again to a single block 23:58:53 a bit waste of space though to not reuse block for same tone 23:58:57 wow! that's great 23:59:13 elliott: using dirt, just make a staircase and break it as you go up for instance 23:59:29 oklopol: how can you break the block before your current one 23:59:30 as in 23:59:31 below 23:59:32 oklopol: i.e. 23:59:34 # 23:59:35 ## 23:59:37 erm 23:59:38 .# 23:59:39 ## 23:59:41 how do you break bottom-right 23:59:42 elliott, by shifting out on the edge 23:59:46 ... 23:59:48 you can even just break the block two down from you, then jump up and place under you' 23:59:49 i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the 23:59:49 . 23:59:50 # 23:59:50 part 23:59:53 *-