←2011-01-15 2011-01-16 2011-01-17→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:00:04 * Phantom__Hoover → sleep
00:00:05 <oklopol> also who puts slipknot and evanescence on the same list :D what's their connection?
00:00:15 <oklopol> "electric guitar -> metal!"
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00:00:50 <oklopol> and who puts eminem and justin bieber on the same list
00:00:53 <oklopol> what's their connection
00:01:07 <oklopol> well umm maybe i shouldn't analyze this further
00:01:11 <Sgeo> They're both jokingly made fun of by some group
00:01:25 <oklopol> ?
00:01:33 <oklopol> can you elaborate
00:01:40 <oklopol> i'm referring to the thing i pasted
00:04:06 <Sgeo> People hate Justin Bieber for no reason, and I'm sure people hate Eminem for no reason
00:04:11 <oklopol> YOU SAY C++, I SAY BRAINFUCK!!!!! YOU SAY JAVA, I SAY UNLAMBDA!! 6% OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03% SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, COPY AND PASTE THIS TO 5 OTHER PROGRAMMING CHANNELS!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF ETC
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00:04:29 <oklopol> i would make a great retard
00:04:33 <oklopol> really i wouldn't have to change a thing
00:04:57 <j-invariant> YOU SAY C++, I SAY BRAINFUCK!!!!! YOU SAY JAVA, I SAY UNLAMBDA!! 6% OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03% SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, COPY AND PASTE THIS TO 5 OTHER PROGRAMMING CHANNELS!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF ETC
00:05:16 <oklopol> j-invariant: what were the channels?
00:05:20 <j-invariant> just this one
00:05:22 <oklopol> oh
00:05:28 <oklopol> darn, i wish elliott was here
00:05:36 <elliott> i'm not
00:05:42 <oklopol> yeah, i know
00:05:48 <elliott> "6% OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03% SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES"
00:05:50 <oklopol> otherwise i would've said
00:05:53 <oklopol> yay, elliott is here
00:05:54 <elliott> i think there's a /prog/ meme like that :}
00:06:00 <elliott> or well, was
00:06:24 <oklopol> well it's kind of an obvious joke, so obvious that it took me quite a lot of effort to make myself write it.
00:06:38 <oklopol> oh
00:06:42 <oklopol> or in what sense?
00:06:53 <oklopol> i used to see that youtube comment like daily
00:07:10 <elliott> wait Sgeo is still going to date ktat?
00:07:11 <oklopol> CAN YOU LOOK UP MEM
00:07:11 <elliott> LOL
00:07:52 <oklopol> why wouldn't he date ktat?
00:08:08 <elliott> oklopol: she believes vitamin c causes cancer, and that chemotherapy is essentially vitamin c
00:08:14 <Sgeo> elliott, cures
00:08:17 <elliott> oops
00:08:22 <elliott> oklopol: (and is a cancer survivor herself, cured by chemotherapy, not vitamin c)
00:08:28 <elliott> oh wait i forgot, they're the same thing
00:08:31 <elliott> because radiation is a vitamin
00:09:01 <Sgeo> I think [hope] she knows radiation isn't a vitamin
00:09:13 <elliott> Sgeo: then how is chemotherapy vitamin c
00:09:22 <oklopol> elliott: everyone laughed at einstein when he told the world center of physics that the earth is actually the center of time but look what happened
00:09:31 <elliott> oklopol: marry me
00:09:39 <Sgeo> Chemotherapy != radiation
00:09:48 <elliott> Sgeo: i am aware, how's chemotherapy vitamin c
00:10:04 <Sgeo> She mentioned some documentary...
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00:10:25 <oklopol> chemotherapy != radiation? i thought that was the essential part
00:10:27 <elliott> yeah but you see the thing is chemotherapy has nothing to do with vitamin c
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00:10:30 <elliott> just saying
00:10:37 <elliott> kinda important fact
00:11:04 <oklopol> ALSO WHO CARES WHAT A GIRL THINKS AS LONG AS THERE'S PROSPECT OF SEX
00:11:32 <oklopol> that needed to be said i think
00:11:51 <elliott> oklopol: but Sgeo has said he's not sure he'd like sex before! all he wants is opinions on vitamin c
00:11:54 <elliott> and boy, these opinions are low-quality
00:12:15 <oklopol> i knew this guy who said he didn't like sex, masturbation was better
00:12:33 <Sgeo> elliott, how do you have such a good memory?
00:12:38 <Sgeo> oklopol, Mike?/
00:12:47 <elliott> Sgeo: because i remember things that are really strange, and you're fucking weird.
00:12:50 <oklopol> Sgeo: a guy i went to high school with
00:12:52 <elliott> *that are strange
00:13:27 <oklopol> elliott: do you remember something i've said?
00:13:37 <elliott> dog food
00:13:44 <oklopol> oh eating that
00:14:04 <elliott> was it nice
00:14:05 <oklopol> i've certainly dabbled in dogging
00:14:15 <elliott> eating doggy style
00:14:38 <zzo38> I am here now. I was away before sorry someone tried to call me
00:15:12 <oklopol> dunno if it's nice or bad, but it's certainly different from human food
00:15:24 <elliott> zzo38: why don't you want a funeral
00:15:25 <oklopol> and i've only tried the dry stuff
00:15:28 <olsner> there will be people with a serious fetish for behaving like a pet dog and eating dog food out of a bowl
00:15:46 <Sgeo> http://sexylosers.com/053.html [NSFW NSFW NSFW]
00:15:49 <zzo38> I want to funeral for me and no bury me. The funeral and these things is cost money and I do not like it.
00:15:50 <olsner> wouldn't be surprising if it's called dogging too
00:16:17 <Sgeo> ^^relevant to what oklopol said about that guy
00:16:26 <zzo38> You can make my body to use, such as making wig by the hair, making writing by the blood (perhaps some lie about how I died?), and the rest of the body for eating??
00:16:41 <oklopol> zzo38: how about sex?
00:16:45 <oklopol> if eating is okay
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00:17:13 <zzo38> oklopol: No sex. (Of course I am dead and I will therefore not stop you, but surely sex of the dead is doesn't even make sense??)
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00:17:20 <elliott> Necrophilia is real.
00:17:29 <elliott> It happens :P
00:17:52 <oklopol> necrophilia with a man would obviously have the dead guy as a bottom
00:18:07 <oklopol> at least i assume so
00:18:09 <elliott> lol
00:18:13 <elliott> "well come on then"
00:18:15 <elliott> "I'M WAITING"
00:18:21 <oklopol> i don't know since i'm a completely straight necrophiliac
00:18:24 <olsner> I would assume it goes all ways
00:18:58 <oklopol> gay necro is just weeeeird
00:19:06 <zzo38> The more time you waste with sex from dead, the body will be rotten and then it will be no good for anything whatsoever (except, perhaps, source of carbon).
00:19:06 <olsner> just... always assume some people are weirder than you thought possible
00:19:34 <oklopol> i mean come on, who wants to see two guys kiss each other and one is dead, two girls (one being dead), sure, everyone likes that but two guys.. (and one is dead) that's just sick
00:19:55 <elliott> never leave us oklopol
00:20:03 <olsner> necrophilic cannibals finish quick so they can have fresher meat
00:20:07 <zzo38> You have to eat right away while it is still on the line of live and dead. But you also have to pull your hair, not only so you can see who is strong enough to pull the hair, but also so that you can make wig.
00:20:12 <oklopol> zzo38: it will have been good for the sex, at least you can have sex multiple times, you can only eat a body once
00:20:20 <oklopol> although i guess you'll get a lot of meat from one body
00:20:32 <zzo38> oklopol: But you cannot make proper sex with the dead!
00:20:47 <elliott> You can if they're still warm!
00:20:54 <oklopol> zzo38: why?
00:20:59 <zzo38> (Of course, it is possible to be bald when dead, and then you will have no hair to pull)
00:21:13 <olsner> meat should be cured for better taste though, I would assume this goes for humans too
00:21:48 <zzo38> olsner: No! I disallowed you to sell human meats in the store!
00:22:18 <olsner> heh, are you drunk?
00:22:25 <oklopol> why couldn't you have sex with someone who's dead, zzo38?
00:22:29 <zzo38> No. Are you drunk?
00:22:38 <olsner> Nope.
00:22:38 <elliott> why couldn't you have sex with someone who's dead, zzo38?
00:22:39 <oklopol> do you just mean because it's gross, or like some physical reason
00:22:47 <zzo38> oklopol: Because it is not proper sex.
00:23:06 <zzo38> I wouldn't expect it to work so well or proper.
00:23:08 <oklopol> what about sex with someone who's unconscious?
00:23:20 <elliott> zzo38: how is it not proper?
00:23:20 <olsner> oklopol: yuck! that's just weird
00:23:35 <zzo38> oklopol: In that case, they are still live, and they didn't tell you consent, so you should not do that either.
00:23:43 <zzo38> (But for different reason)
00:23:45 <oklopol> erm
00:24:04 <olsner> you can consent to unconscious sex just as you can for post-mortem sex
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00:24:21 <oklopol> how do you know they "didn't tell you consent"? and we're not talking about whether you should do it, but whether it'd be proper sex
00:24:35 <elliott> olsner: well except that you're going to wake up if you're unconscious... and are also still a sentient being
00:24:35 <oklopol> olsner: i think legally you can't consent to post-mortem sex
00:24:40 <zzo38> Is it possible to write a note from blood of the recently deceased, about how they died?
00:24:44 <oklopol> but legally, you can consent to unconscious sex, prolly
00:24:49 <elliott> olsner: so post-mortem is a bit different
00:24:55 <elliott> zzo38: "I died getting the blood to write this note"
00:24:58 <zzo38> oklopol: Well, I guess if they told you consent ahead of time for unconscious sex, it is different.
00:25:04 <elliott> zzo38: so why can sex with a dead person not be proper?
00:25:33 <oklopol> zzo38: we don't care about the consent part... or is sex somehow different depending on whether it's immoral or not?
00:25:34 <zzo38> elliott: Because sex must involve two people and their body of sex is not function properly once dead, therefore it is improper.
00:25:44 <oklopol> oh
00:25:48 <oklopol> improper as in "wrong"?
00:25:49 <elliott> zzo38: how does it not function properly, like, how does that stop sex being proper?
00:25:50 <oklopol> or what
00:25:59 <olsner> not sure about the legalities, of course, but if someone decides their burial should involve sex shouldn't that be exactly like deciding you want to be cremated?
00:26:03 <elliott> zzo38: as in -- what parts of the body are (1) required for sex to be proper and (2) not functioning past death?
00:26:23 <elliott> olsner: ashes to ashes... dust to dust... genitalia to genitalia...
00:26:24 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know, I am not a doctor. Nor do I know about sex. Maybe you should ask a sex doctor.
00:26:35 <oklopol> olsner: unless it's just plain illegal to fuck a dead body
00:26:35 <elliott> zzo38: then i don't see how you can say post-mortem sex is not proper
00:26:43 <oklopol> well
00:26:57 <zzo38> elliott: Of course I can say whatever I want, it doesn't make it necessarily true!
00:26:57 <oklopol> i suppose this gets a bit fine-grained, maybe you can still make the contract legally or something
00:27:04 <elliott> zzo38: well that's a bit silly
00:27:13 <elliott> oklopol: you can't make a contract saying someone can murder you
00:27:14 <olsner> I think burning a dead body is illegal too, except when part of the procedures
00:27:16 <elliott> i think it's probably similar
00:27:39 <elliott> i imagine most necrophiliacs wouldn't actually fuck a dead guy
00:27:41 <elliott> for, you know, safety reasons
00:27:43 <cheater-> what if you hump the body so fast the friction creates spontaneous combustion
00:27:50 <cheater-> does that count as cremation
00:28:04 <olsner> wouldn't that also cause self-immolation?
00:28:06 <oklopol> elliott: fucking a fresh body doesn't sound very dangerous tho
00:28:16 <cheater-> not if you're wearing an asbestos condom
00:28:26 <cheater-> and besides, we're not even debating that aspect really :D
00:28:27 <elliott> oklopol: well it'd be a bit cold still
00:28:38 <elliott> muscles frozen up and stuff
00:28:49 <elliott> i dunno it still sounds unsanitary :D
00:29:00 <oklopol> not really
00:29:15 <oklopol> asses are full of shit and still we stick our dicks in them without protection
00:29:28 <Sgeo> Food Matters
00:29:34 <Sgeo> That's the name of the bullshit that she saw
00:30:23 <oklopol> also i think the coldness would just be really hot if your fantasy is to fuck a dead body
00:30:50 <oklopol> i've tried a cold fleshlight for instance and that works fine
00:31:07 <zzo38> You probably will not die by writing a note from your own blood if it is one small part. But if you played mahjong with blood and your opponent won everything and they must remove all of your blood from one small hole in your arm (which is sterilized too), then it is different.
00:31:10 <oklopol> not for that purpose tho :D
00:31:25 <elliott> oklopol: chilled with ice?
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00:31:29 <oklopol> zzo38: you say weird things
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00:31:35 <elliott> oklopol: also, sane people don't stick their dicks in asses without protection :P
00:31:39 <oklopol> elliott: a dead body would be room temperature, wouldn't it
00:32:01 <elliott> Sgeo: doesn't even have a wp page
00:32:02 <olsner> with time, a dead body will approach ambient temperature
00:32:03 <elliott> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1528734/
00:32:05 <oklopol> not in uncharted asses, no
00:32:10 <oklopol> but asses in general
00:32:32 <elliott> <zzo38> You probably will not die by writing a note from your own blood if it is one small part. But if you played mahjong with blood and your opponent won everything and they must remove all of your blood from one small hole in your arm (which is sterilized too), then it is different.
00:32:33 <elliott> what :D
00:32:38 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Food+Matters%22
00:32:57 <zzo38> elliott: Can you play mahjong? Can you read Akagi manga book?
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00:33:08 <elliott> no. it is physically impossible for me to read Akagi
00:33:10 <elliott> i would combust.
00:33:27 <oklopol> and the probabilities of catching std's are highly overestimated to scare young ppl into being safer, i've had unprotected sex with non-regular gf at least 4 times and i've caught only one std
00:33:28 <zzo38> elliott: Why would you?
00:33:32 <elliott> magic
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00:33:33 <cheater00> what if he/she dies during the act? that wouldn't be so unsanitary. i mean it's not like 50 milliseconds after death the corpse becomes a juicy tender sack of disease, riddled with bugs. it's not an old apple that's been in tupperware on the back of your car in the sun for too long
00:33:43 <elliott> oklopol: i have no words :D
00:33:49 <zzo38> These books are real books they are not magic.
00:34:02 <coppro> 19:36 < oklopol> and the probabilities of catching std's are highly overestimated to scare young ppl into being safer, i've had unprotected sex with non-regular gf at least 4 times and i've caught only one std
00:34:04 <Sgeo> Holy fuck
00:34:06 <coppro> this is not reassuring
00:34:09 <Sgeo> Just saw the trailer
00:34:14 <zzo38> I have *all* of the Akagi books, including the special edition.
00:34:17 <oklopol> coppro: it was a joke
00:34:22 <oklopol> unless you missed that
00:34:30 <zzo38> But the series is still on-going.
00:34:30 <j-invariant> wow 0.999... = 1 discussion in #haskell
00:34:31 <j-invariant> lame
00:34:35 <elliott> oklopol: but i already quoted it to everyone...
00:34:36 <oklopol> (it's true, sure)
00:34:43 <oklopol> (but it was a joke)
00:34:57 <elliott> j-invariant: TROLL TIME
00:35:06 <elliott> oklopol: IS IT TRUE OR NOT
00:35:24 <oklopol> yes
00:35:30 <oklopol> i've caught an std
00:35:57 <oklopol> i think. it was kinda unclear, they told me i MUST HAVE CAUGHT IT, and that they'd call me when it's confirmed, gave me the treatment and sent me away
00:36:01 <oklopol> but didn't call me
00:36:17 <oklopol> so i suppose i didn't have it, or i had such a strong strain that they figured i'll just die anyway
00:37:41 <oklopol> or i suppose it's more likely that they were actually never going to call in the first place and i just misunderstood
00:37:44 <oklopol> i never listen to ppl
00:38:12 <oklopol> zzo38: here?
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00:38:26 <zzo38> Even in D&D game, my character had blue blood so I cut myself to use it to cover a potion to disguise its colors, so someone else doesn't know what color it is.
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00:38:31 <zzo38> oklopol: here?
00:38:37 <oklopol> i'm here!
00:38:41 <oklopol> but are you here?
00:38:47 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes.
00:38:50 <oklopol> okay
00:38:52 <cheater00> oklopol: they took a sample of your blood but there were no blood cells in there, only cancer cells infested by HIV
00:38:59 <elliott> zzo38: Are you not here?
00:39:07 <oklopol> zzo38: you unignored cheater00 right?
00:39:10 <zzo38> elliott: I am not in your house.
00:39:18 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes I did.
00:39:19 <elliott> zzo38: Are you not not here?
00:39:27 <cheater00> zzo38: :D
00:39:32 <zzo38> elliott: Not not where, to be specific?
00:39:39 <elliott> zzo38: Not not there.
00:40:08 <oklopol> cheater00: i've decided my body is naturally resistant to all forms of cancer
00:40:25 <zzo38> (I only ignored cheater00 for a short time, and even if I did not remove the ignore it is not persistent across sessions unless I put it in the init file for the IRC client)
00:40:28 <cheater00> oklopol: you're an Oklopol Realdoll
00:40:29 <oklopol> because people are all gay about how dangerous it is, i've decided to take the higher road
00:40:52 <cheater00> oklopol: aka mr. floppy
00:41:02 <cheater00> or how-ever-the-hell-you-call-it
00:41:05 <j-invariant> elliott: now they're using inconsistent theories
00:41:10 <j-invariant> elliott: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
00:41:21 <oklopol> j-invariant: the 0.999 vs 1 thing?
00:41:29 <cheater00> brb, need to say bye to my friends who're off on a trip
00:41:30 <cheater00> bbs
00:42:02 <oklopol> yeah say bye to your friend's whore
00:42:56 <oklopol> can someone copy and paste the interesting bits of the convo somewhee
00:42:57 <oklopol> *where
00:43:01 <elliott> j-invariant: cale doesn't believe in an objective universe
00:43:10 <oklopol> is Cale the one who's being stupid?
00:43:18 <oklopol> i thought he's like the smartest guy on ever
00:43:31 <elliott> no he isn't being stupid apart from that
00:43:47 <j-invariant> elliott: Well I am not sure what it means, I'm interested
00:44:01 <zzo38> Which IRC clients do and do not persist ignores (and/or other things) across sessions?
00:44:13 <elliott> xchat persists it
00:44:48 <zzo38> elliott: Does xchat have a init file?
00:44:51 <oklopol> i don't know what a session is
00:44:56 <oklopol> sounds like a pretty useless concept
00:44:57 <elliott> no
00:45:00 <elliott> oklopol: indeed
00:45:27 <zzo38> oklopol: What I mean by a session is when the program is loaded and then closed. Next time you run the program is the next session, memory from the previous session is gone.
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00:45:53 <oklopol> oh alright
00:46:11 <zzo38> oklopol: Call it something else if you want to.
00:46:35 <oklopol> no sensible program ever had that concept, when you close a program and reopen it, obviously you start in the same state
00:47:03 <zzo38> oklopol: No, many program do not start automatically from where you left off.
00:47:18 <oklopol> zzo38: they are retarded programs and can be ignored for the purposes of this argument
00:47:33 <oklopol> studying the empty set is much easier and purer
00:47:38 <elliott> oklopol: in @, it's impossible to write a program that obeys differently when you close it!
00:47:39 <elliott> well
00:47:40 <zzo38> (TeX will save state if you use \dump otherwise it will not do so)
00:47:43 <elliott> you could hook into disk save/disk load
00:47:50 <elliott> but that doesn't correspond to start/stop using necessarily at all
00:49:00 <oklopol> the only way a program can tell it has been closed and reopened is that the system clock suddenly jumps
00:49:22 <oklopol> why would someone associate with this event the emptying of all state
00:49:47 <zzo38> oklopol: I suppose if that is the way, you can make it if you do not want to save state, instead delete it when you close and create a new copy with a nwe session ID and everything when you start back up.
00:50:08 <zzo38> The program does not need to be able to tell when it has been closed or not, because you can set state by user setting instead of by program setting.
00:50:21 <oklopol> let me try to work my way through what you just said
00:50:24 <zzo38> It would also be useful to have multiple sessions, sometimes, such as working on multiple things.
00:50:31 <elliott> oklopol all mobs are invisible for me how amazing is that
00:50:42 <oklopol> "delete it when you close"
00:51:09 <oklopol> elliott: that's the way it should be, even scarier than as is
00:51:47 <elliott> oklopol: :D
00:52:05 <zzo38> What I mean is delete the copy of the session, and then you can create a new session from the copy of the initial program.
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00:52:49 <oklopol> "<zzo38> It would also be useful to have multiple sessions, sometimes, such as working on multiple things." <<< that is actually very true
00:53:02 <oklopol> but i'm not sure starting and closing programs is the way to do that
00:53:22 <zzo38> Which is why the session should be separate from the program itself, even if sessions are allowed to persist.
00:53:32 <oklopol> elliott: why are they invisible?
00:53:38 <oklopol> zzo38: yeah
00:53:57 <elliott> oklopol: some bug
00:54:08 <oklopol> elliott: that actually sounds so scary
00:54:20 <oklopol> you'd just occasionally hear the sound of something
00:54:31 <zzo38> And then, perhaps, allow you to copy a session.
00:54:36 <elliott> oklopol: i'm muted
00:54:36 <oklopol> and oh god, where is it
00:54:43 <elliott> oklopol: so actually, i just started losing damage
00:54:44 <elliott> and being pushed
00:54:48 <elliott> and tried to run away but couldnt
00:54:49 <elliott> *couldn't
00:54:50 <oklopol> :D
00:54:52 <elliott> because i didn't know where it was
00:54:53 <oklopol> that's so cool
00:54:54 <elliott> and it killed me
00:55:00 <oklopol> haha
00:55:02 <oklopol> ghosts
00:55:17 <elliott> oklopol: it should play monster sounds completely uncorrelated with actual monsters
00:55:18 <oklopol> there should be a game based on that
00:55:26 <elliott> hear a spider, nothing's there, but you walk a bit, and there's a zombie, totally silent, start losing health
00:55:30 <elliott> fight it like a spider
00:55:31 <elliott> die horribly
00:55:48 <zzo38> I have some games with some things invisible.
00:56:03 <zzo38> Including I modified the ROM for Super Mario game to make Mario to be invisible, too.
00:56:04 <oklopol> what kind of games?
00:56:16 <oklopol> mario being invisible would be just annoying
00:56:23 <zzo38> And also one pinball game with the ball is invisible.
00:56:23 <oklopol> as would mario enemies being invisible
00:56:23 <elliott> everything should be invisible
00:56:26 <elliott> apart from terrain
00:56:27 <elliott> third-person
00:56:33 <oklopol> zzo38: also that sounds just annoying :D
00:56:36 <elliott> scrolling pseudorandomly triggered so you can't deduce your position from it
00:56:43 <elliott> all items, enemies, yourself, etc. are invisible and inaudible
00:56:52 <oklopol> that's just a game of luck isn't it
00:56:55 <oklopol> that pong
00:56:56 <zzo38> And there is invisible tetris (it is a mode in Lockjaw).
00:56:59 <oklopol> erm pinball
00:57:08 <elliott> well in pinball you already whack the flippers madly constantly anyway
00:57:14 <elliott> invisible tetris xD
00:57:14 <zzo38> oklopol: Pinball is not just a game of luck, invisible or not; flippers or not.
00:57:15 <elliott> worst game ever
00:57:19 <elliott> zzo38: yes it is
00:57:26 <elliott> it's a game of
00:57:33 <elliott> (1) pressing flippers when you see the ball (a monkey could do this)
00:57:33 <elliott> and
00:57:34 <zzo38> elliott: I do not whack the flippers madly.
00:57:38 <elliott> (2) hoping it doesn't go straight in the middle
00:57:42 <elliott> which it does, constantly
00:57:43 <elliott> and that's it
00:57:47 <zzo38> elliott: No, it isn't. You also bump the table.
00:57:50 <oklopol> i should make a game that's like totally awesome, with contemporary 3d graphics, but everything is actually rendered as a black screen without sound
00:57:51 <elliott> useless
00:57:53 <zzo38> Especially if it is flipperless game.
00:57:54 <elliott> unless it completely stops
00:57:56 <elliott> in which case bump it once
00:58:01 <elliott> oklopol: xD
00:58:02 <zzo38> I prefer flipperless pinball game.
00:58:25 <elliott> so uh
00:58:27 <elliott> one control?
00:58:29 <elliott> no game with one control can be good
00:58:31 <elliott> pretty much
00:58:32 <elliott> you need two
00:58:33 <elliott> exactly two
00:58:38 <elliott> or infinite
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00:58:39 <oklopol> just like when we were making this one game which never came to be, we decided to make this big elaborate secret area that you *actually can't access in any way*
00:58:51 <zzo38> elliott: Well, you have multiple controls. You can bump it in many different directions, and you can control the plunger.
00:58:59 <cheater00> oklopol: stfu
00:59:03 <elliott> oklopol: what game
00:59:07 * cheater00 blends oklopol
00:59:08 <oklopol> elliott: ulimon!
00:59:13 <oklopol> :D
00:59:15 <elliott> oklopol: also, there was one of those in some nintendo or something game
00:59:16 <cheater00> :DD
00:59:19 <elliott> oklopol: contest winner got a special room
00:59:27 <elliott> oklopol: except that it was only in the american version
00:59:28 <oklopol> pokemon but with ulis... although it didn't have much to do with pokemon
00:59:32 <elliott> oklopol: and the american localisers removed the door
00:59:36 <elliott> so it was impossible to get to
00:59:42 <cheater00> lol
00:59:50 <cheater00> oh hey elliott
00:59:56 <cheater00> have you ever read up on hyperreal numberz
00:59:59 <zzo38> In a real flipperless pinball game (without computer), you can bump in any direction you want and with different amounts of force.
01:00:18 <elliott> pinball is rubbish
01:00:24 <elliott> oklopol: so how goes oklocraft
01:00:30 <oklopol> elliott: guess!
01:00:36 <elliott> oklopol: almost developed?
01:00:42 <zzo38> elliott: Probably because you do not understand the strategy for playing the game.
01:00:50 <oklopol> there is a strategy?
01:01:00 <zzo38> oklopol: For pinball game, yes.
01:01:03 <elliott> zzo38: no, no, you see, my opinion is that it's rubbish
01:01:08 <oklopol> after a few bumps, the movement of the ball is random
01:01:26 <oklopol> and it usually bumps like 30 times before falling
01:01:48 <zzo38> oklopol: Timing is important. You cannot just bump it at randomly, you will almost certainly lose that way.
01:02:01 <elliott> if the flippers extended to the middle
01:02:04 <elliott> anyone could beat the world record for pinball
01:02:09 <oklopol> in some pinballs there's some sort of plot like you have to hit a certain thing and then another thing etc, so you have aim those couple of first bumps right
01:02:09 <elliott> easily
01:02:26 <cheater00> except not because the ball could still fall between flippers in an unlucky situation!
01:02:32 <zzo38> You also have to pay attention to all of the lights and everything, and order of targets if it is important, the velocity of the ball, and more.
01:02:35 <cheater00> and then someone who's extremely unlucky will always keep on doing that
01:02:46 <oklopol> zzo38: you call aiming the first bump of the ball to be somewhere that gives a high amount of points "strategy"?
01:03:02 <zzo38> cheater00: What is the elasticity of the flippers?
01:03:12 <zzo38> oklopol: No, that is only a small part of the game.
01:03:21 <zzo38> You have to think about the entire game which is a lot more than just that.
01:03:48 <oklopol> but you do realize when you hit the ball, it hits the first couple things as you like, and then it just jumps around randomly
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01:03:49 <zzo38> The elasticity of the various objects in the table is very important.
01:04:05 <oklopol> unless you make very precise hits that come back right away, is that the way pros play it?
01:04:08 <cheater00> zzo38: speaking of elasticity.. i should play some gish
01:04:12 <oklopol> gish!
01:04:14 <oklopol> <4
01:04:20 <cheater00> hahah
01:04:25 <cheater00> have you been playing it again?
01:04:29 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes it does do that sometimes, which is why you have to make precision and timing, and to think of how to recover from some things.
01:04:31 <elliott> yeah no pinball is boring and unstrategic
01:04:35 <oklopol> not in ages
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01:04:51 <oklopol> "yes it does do that sometimes"
01:04:52 <oklopol> do what?
01:05:23 <zzo38> oklopol: Moves in the different way than expected.
01:05:29 <oklopol> whenever you let the ball jump more then 2 times, you certainly can't predict *at all* what it's going to do
01:05:49 <zzo38> That is what makes pinball a good game, you can do like that.
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01:05:54 <cheater00> oklopol: you can in (good) real pinballs
01:06:13 <cheater00> not like the pinball that came with windows nt 4
01:06:14 <oklopol> i find that hard to believe
01:06:24 <cheater00> in start > programs > accessories
01:06:25 <cheater00> :D
01:06:31 <oklopol> but okay maybe like 4
01:06:31 <zzo38> oklopol: Which is why you might attempt to hit certain targets in order to turn on and off lights in order to improve the advantage that you might get with the ball moving different way.
01:07:19 <oklopol> zzo38: as long as you really play the game in such a way that the ball returns down at least say every 3 bumps, i believe you're actually controlling the game.
01:07:34 <oklopol> and not just being good at catching the drops that almost go in the middle
01:07:53 <oklopol> well i don't *believe* that, but at least it could theoretically be possible
01:08:15 <zzo38> I play a pinball game called "JiggleBox". There are bumpers and drop targets and rollover targets with lights and stuff, but near the bottom, the ball can reenter the launch area, and then there is some holes, labeled "50", "100", "0", and "game over".
01:08:53 <zzo38> If you get the ball in a hole you get that many points and you lose the current ball (you get nine balls per game). If you get the ball in the hole labeled "game over", the game ends immediately, you lose all of your balls to play.
01:10:05 <zzo38> So when the ball is up high you try generally to hit targets and lights and points, and try not to make it too fast into the lower area; when it is in the lower area, try to recover so that the ball will touch the launch area, or the "100" hole, at least.
01:10:26 <oklopol> when the ball is high, you can control its movement?
01:10:56 <zzo38> oklopol: By hitting the table so that the ball deflects off of bumpers and pins and walls and drop targets in various ways.
01:11:18 <elliott> fizzie: Apparently you spawn in a random location of the first chunk in SMP. (reddit hearsay.)
01:11:21 <oklopol> what does hitting do?
01:12:02 <oklopol> i never used that because in all the pinballs i've played, it's just a small random move that is not really good for anything
01:12:02 <zzo38> oklopol: When you hit the table it gives force to the table in the direction you hit it, moving everything in one way for a short time.
01:12:21 <oklopol> does the ball's trajectory change?
01:12:46 <oklopol> or can you just make the ball touch an object if it was already going near it
01:13:40 <zzo38> oklopol: It can, a little bit, depending on friction and stuff. But usually you just make the ball touch an object that it is near, in a certain way, to increase or reduce the force with which the ball touches that object.
01:13:43 <oklopol> if the trajectory doesn't change, that's just silly optimization
01:14:02 <elliott> oklopol: i think it's to make it bounce harder
01:14:12 <zzo38> And of course the force is a vector quantity, which is also important.
01:14:25 <oklopol> well in that case the trajectory certainly does change
01:14:37 <oklopol> zzo38: what?
01:14:53 <oklopol> anyway you're not really convinving me at all
01:14:54 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, to make it bounce harder or in a different direction. (Or, sometimes less hard)
01:15:07 <elliott> yeah these are not good arguments
01:15:30 <oklopol> you're not really telling me anything i didn't know
01:15:48 <oklopol> well, i suppose it's hard to prove something that's not true
01:15:51 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:16:03 <zzo38> Pinball is all based on physics.
01:16:16 <oklopol> what
01:16:22 <elliott> so is solitaire
01:16:25 <elliott> you put the cards on top of each other
01:16:28 <elliott> that's physcs
01:16:29 <elliott> *physics
01:16:33 <zzo38> elliott: No, that doesn't count.
01:16:39 <elliott> also chess, how do you think those pieces stay on the board
01:16:41 <elliott> FRICTION bitches
01:16:59 <oklopol> zzo38: it's based on physics, point is there's so little control the movement of the ball is essentially random
01:17:09 <zzo38> elliott: Of course the games work because of physics, but chess is not a game of physics.
01:17:57 <zzo38> oklopol: It isn't. I know because I play pinball a lot and the control you have can improve the game a lot, even though there are many random movements of the ball.
01:18:32 <oklopol> i can't seem to find youtube vids of people being good a pinball
01:18:36 <oklopol> might convince me a bit
01:19:11 -!- azaq23 has left (?).
01:19:37 <zzo38> See a picture of the pinball game http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png
01:20:01 <elliott> i don't like pinball, it's bad
01:20:06 <elliott> i agree with oklopol
01:20:08 <elliott> give us youtube videos
01:20:10 <elliott> of good pinballing
01:21:30 <Sgeo> Hmm
01:21:55 <Sgeo> I think she might not think that chemo is literally vit. C, just that it has the same effect as far as destroying cancer is conc.. wait, no
01:22:08 <oklopol> i assume people can become really awesome in these games, but i still think 1) it's mostly about very rough estimates of how to stay safe, and never failing when it's possible to catch the ball 2) a casual player will never reach anything above randomness
01:23:02 <zzo38> oklopol: You are probably correct
01:23:47 <elliott> hey oklopol you're good at x86-64 asm right
01:23:49 <oklopol> also, it's possible the pro way is indeed to either 1) actually control the ball by hitting 2) make short between-control runs by hitting in places so that the ball just falls back
01:24:02 <elliott> Sgeo: wait no why
01:24:03 <oklopol> elliott: i've read a book about it, i don't remember any of the actual operations though
01:24:05 <elliott> *why "wait no"
01:24:06 <oklopol> :D
01:24:10 <elliott> oklopol: right, so you get to write @'s kernel
01:24:32 <oklopol> if either of 1 or 2 is used, i believe the game can become non-random
01:24:39 <Sgeo> I asked her how there could be different types of chemo, and she said different doses
01:25:12 <zzo38> oklopol: You can also use a combination of those techniques.
01:25:13 <oklopol> isn't chemo = injecting some shit for fun + radiation
01:26:30 <oklopol> zzo38: so like, do you actually decide "okay, i'm going to hit that target, and then let the ball go to that other target there, then come back", or do you go "okay ima hit there", and then when it hits those two targets you go like yay i hit exactly what i wanted!
01:26:42 <oklopol> i do the latter
01:26:51 <oklopol> and i've played a lot of pinball
01:27:17 <oklopol> of course, only the windows pinball, so maybe there is essential difference in amount of control, but anyway.
01:27:42 <oklopol> in windows pinball, you always choose like a mission by hitting these targets
01:27:50 <zzo38> oklopol: It is selected based on a few factors, such as the current velocity of the ball and the probability of certain things working.
01:27:52 <oklopol> and then based on that mission, you have to hit certain kinds of targets
01:28:21 <oklopol> and that was all very random
01:28:43 <oklopol> like "put numbers in this prng and try to get 3452 to appear in the first 30 digits!" random
01:28:44 <elliott> zzo38: so can you give us a youtube thing
01:28:57 <zzo38> elliott: I have no YouTube things.
01:29:12 <elliott> well get one, to show us pinball
01:29:23 <elliott> <oklopol> like "put numbers in this prng and try to get 3452 to appear in the first 30 digits!" random
01:29:25 <elliott> i would play that
01:29:27 <oklopol> if there are no youtube videos of pinballing, then it's pretty obvious no one has ever become good at pinball
01:29:56 <oklopol> there's a video where this guy picks a whole glass of snot from his nose in one minute
01:30:04 <oklopol> so pinball shouldn't really be excluded
01:30:09 <oklopol> that was a lie
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01:30:19 <elliott> thanks i can taste snot now
01:30:36 <oklopol> once me and a friend tested whether you can drink coke through your nose and i drink a whole glass
01:30:46 <oklopol> *drank
01:30:47 <zzo38> oklopol: I have played the Windows pinball. The up arrow is a dumb key for forward bump, so you can change it to spacebar (and set the plunger key to enter). But if you hold down the bump key for more than a small fraction of a second it goes on tilt, so release the keys very quickly after pushing them.
01:31:05 <oklopol> yeah tilt is kinda stupid
01:31:36 <oklopol> either make hitting an essential part of the game mechanics and make like a bar that shows how much you have left to use or something, or just leave it out...
01:31:56 <zzo38> Tilt penalty is found less often on flipperless games than on flippered games.
01:32:12 <oklopol> ?
01:32:18 <oklopol> well right, because it's copied from irl machines
01:32:29 <zzo38> Hitting *is* an essential part of the game.
01:32:46 <oklopol> but the penalty is done completely wrong
01:32:46 <elliott> oklopol: did it burn your nose
01:32:52 <zzo38> Many flipperless games do not detect tilt.
01:33:06 <oklopol> it's copied from irl games where the system WAS MADE SO THAT NO ONE COULD HIT THE BOARD EVER
01:33:13 <elliott> i don't get the tilt penalty, yeah
01:33:13 <elliott> it's like
01:33:15 <elliott> STOP THAT
01:33:18 <elliott> in real life does it beep
01:33:19 <elliott> and punch you
01:33:21 <elliott> if you tilt it too hard
01:34:12 <zzo38> elliott: It won't punch you, but some games will reboot if you tilt it too hard.
01:35:02 <oklopol> i suppose the point of tilt penalty is exactly that hitting makes the game less random, and you generally want your games to be random if people are paying to play them
01:35:11 <oklopol> because otherwise good players can play longer
01:35:16 <oklopol> and you want everyone to play for a short time
01:37:35 <oklopol> but yeah, why not take hitting - a misfeature provided by reality in the irl pinballs - and then also add tilt penalty - a misfeature provided by the fact games are not actually made to be interesting, but to make money - to your computer game
01:37:48 <oklopol> what the fuck is wrong with these people
01:38:11 <oklopol> i don't really care
01:43:58 -!- drakhan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:44:28 <zzo38> Do you know if you will be able to help to write user-documentation/tutorials for TeXnicard?
01:49:47 <oklopol> i know *i* can't, if that helps!
01:49:49 <oklopol> elliott: no
01:49:57 <oklopol> it was just weird
01:50:04 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
01:50:13 <oklopol> and i fell on some crap earlier today and now my pants are all smelly
01:50:17 <elliott> oklopol: no what
01:50:31 <oklopol> elliott: well you know that question you once asked
01:50:41 <zzo38> oklopol: You can't? Do you know why you can't?
01:50:47 <elliott> oklopol: oh the dog food right
01:50:53 <oklopol> elliott: no
01:51:00 <oklopol> elliott: one of the other ones
01:51:01 <elliott> then what
01:51:07 <oklopol> hmm
01:51:07 <elliott> which
01:51:12 <elliott> hey pikhq
01:51:13 <oklopol> let me copy it for you
01:51:21 <oklopol> since you seem to be a bit short on the brain today.
01:51:21 <elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> x)))
01:51:21 <elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> v0))))
01:51:45 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: did it burn your nose"
01:51:48 <elliott> oh
01:51:58 <elliott> coke burns my nose
01:52:12 <oklopol> did you try
01:52:20 <elliott> no, but i've had it come out of my nose
01:52:21 <elliott> that burns
01:52:26 <elliott> j-invariant: i wrote the most lovely lambda calculus in haskell just now
01:52:32 <j-invariant> realy
01:52:38 <j-invariant> WAT
01:52:43 <j-invariant> 01:54 < elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> x)))
01:52:43 <j-invariant> 01:54 < elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> v0))))
01:52:46 <j-invariant> fail
01:52:53 <elliott> j-invariant: howso
01:52:55 <j-invariant> alpha evaluation LOL
01:52:59 <elliott> j-invariant: nope
01:53:00 <elliott> not how it works
01:53:00 <j-invariant> im just being silly
01:53:02 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:53:20 <elliott> j-invariant: i based it on http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/?p=95 which you've probably seen
01:53:23 <elliott> seems to be down
01:53:24 <elliott> cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:joFRT78UzLkJ:sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/%3Fp%3D95+http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/%3Fp%3D95&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
01:53:33 <elliott> j-invariant: but, i used HOAS instead of de bruijn
01:53:43 <elliott> j-invariant: and now the evaluator and the quoter are crazy bidirectional!
01:54:03 <elliott> j-invariant: http://sprunge.us/ZEeS
01:54:16 <elliott> j-invariant: obviously if you just want an evaluator, you can ditch Var, SVar, showSyn and the Show instances
01:54:18 <j-invariant> cool
01:54:19 <elliott> and even nf
01:54:30 <elliott> which makes it literally just... 7 lines
01:54:35 <elliott> (i counted)
01:54:42 <elliott> data Syn = Lam (Syn -> Syn) | App Syn Syn
01:54:42 <zzo38> I think I found what report DVItype is part of (which is why it starts on page 402 instead of page 1), it is TeXware, it is listed in the bibliography for TeX. But there is no ISBN?
01:54:45 <elliott> data Sem = Sem (Sem -> Sem)
01:54:46 -!- variable has joined.
01:54:48 <elliott> eval :: Syn -> Sem
01:54:53 <elliott> eval (Lam f) = Sem (\x -> eval (f (quote x)))
01:54:55 <elliott> eval (App f x) = f' (eval x) where Sem f' = eval f
01:54:59 <elliott> quote :: Sem -> Syn
01:54:59 <elliott> quote (Sem f) = Lam (\x -> quote (f (eval x)))
01:55:01 <elliott> j-invariant: that's all you need
01:55:10 <elliott> hey those functions are eval . f . quote
01:55:12 <elliott> and quote . f . eval :DD
01:55:17 <j-invariant> very nice
01:56:03 <elliott> *Main> nf (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
01:56:03 <elliott> (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> *** Exception: /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Main.Sem f'
01:56:04 <elliott> oops
01:56:06 <elliott> i'll fix that
01:56:10 <elliott> but it'll get uglier
01:56:37 <oklopol> i don't understand http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png
01:56:41 <j-invariant> /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed
01:56:41 <oklopol> where are the flippers floppers
01:56:44 <j-invariant> for pattern Main.Sem f'
01:56:47 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah
01:56:48 <j-invariant> DONT USE TYPES HE SAID, IT WILL BE OKAY HE SAID.
01:56:52 <elliott> :DD
01:56:53 <zzo38> oklopol: That is a flipperless game, there are no flippers.
01:57:03 <elliott> j-invariant: basically the problem is, (App (SVar i) ...) doesn't work
01:57:07 <j-invariant> :P
01:57:08 <elliott> and i'm not sure how to fix that without it being horrible
01:57:12 <elliott> any ideas?
01:57:15 <oklopol> zzo38: oh? just hitting or?
01:57:32 <oklopol> or no control at all? :D
01:57:35 <oklopol> that'd be cool
01:57:40 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, just hitting. (Actually there is one more thing you can control -- the launch strength.)
01:58:08 <zzo38> The computer allows hitting in five directions.
01:58:09 <oklopol> so... that's fortuna, not pinball?
01:58:22 <zzo38> What is fortuna?
01:58:23 <oklopol> even more pointless a game
01:59:18 <oklopol> my internet is not flowing so i can't check if the name is international or just the name of a particular type of that game no one knows outside my apartment
01:59:19 <zzo38> JiggleBox is a pinball game, just without flippers. If you are good at it you might be able to hit all of the drop targets twice per game.
01:59:47 <oklopol> erm, pinball games last for like 15 minutes before ball drops out..
02:00:02 <oklopol> it's mostly a game of stamina...
02:00:05 <elliott> j-invariant: oh i know...
02:00:14 <elliott> j-invariant: if i just implement an evaluator that works on pure Syn it would work :D
02:00:15 <elliott> uglyyy
02:00:22 <zzo38> oklopol: If you are good at it you can make it last longer.
02:00:50 <elliott> j-invariant: or actually, I could put Add in Sem, but that is ugly!
02:01:01 <j-invariant> 02:02 < Mahcaut> ⓘⓢ ⓘⓣ ⓣⓡⓤⓔ ⓣⓗⓐⓣ ⓘⓝⓣ ⓢⓘⓝ(ⓧ) ⓘⓝⓕ ❸.1❹
02:01:05 <j-invariant> 02:02 < Mahcaut> ⓞⓞⓟⓢ
02:01:10 <elliott> j-invariant: ...xDDDD
02:01:14 <oklopol> longer than 15 minutes? sure, that was just an indication of what kind of game pinball is, since "you might be able to hit all of the drop targets twice per game" sounded a bit less
02:01:16 <oklopol> than 15 minutes
02:01:19 <elliott> is that #math
02:01:57 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes it does usually last less than 15 minutes. But sometimes it will go on longer.
02:02:15 <zzo38> (Also, the drop targets are not the entire game; mostly you hit the other things.)
02:02:23 <oklopol> and if you don't hit at all, it just falls down or?
02:02:35 <oklopol> or jumps around just as long
02:02:38 <oklopol> just as randomly
02:03:01 <zzo38> oklopol: The ball might just fall down, but it might also jump around. Usually it will jump around for a while and then fall down before you have many points.
02:03:15 <elliott> j-invariant:
02:03:17 <elliott> *Main> (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:03:17 <elliott> (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> (App (App v0 v1) v2)))))))
02:03:17 <elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:03:17 <elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> *** Exception: /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Main.Fun f'
02:03:21 <elliott> j-invariant: yep, my Sem is insufficient
02:03:27 <elliott> (i.e. quote isn't total)
02:04:31 <zzo38> If you are not good at the game, you will probably fail to hit all of the drop targets even once.
02:05:05 <elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:05:05 <elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> (App (App v0 v1) v2)))))))
02:05:06 <elliott> \o/
02:05:06 <myndzi> |
02:05:06 <myndzi> /'\
02:05:50 <elliott> *Main> eval (App (Lam (\x -> x)) (Lam (\x -> x)))
02:05:50 <elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> v0))
02:05:53 <elliott> j-invariant: it works, how amazing is that
02:05:57 <elliott> 31 lines
02:06:10 <elliott> 7-lines extended with full printing functionality that actually works as Show
02:06:14 <elliott> i.e. the result is valid Haskell
02:06:14 <elliott> :D
02:06:19 <elliott> (with the same result always)
02:06:42 <j-invariant> 02:08 < gnee> lol 50% IS math
02:06:42 <j-invariant> 02:09 < joo> It's like undone math cake.
02:06:42 <j-invariant> 02:09 < gnee> lol
02:06:42 <j-invariant> 02:09 < Mahcaut> ⓘⓢ ⓘⓣ ⓣⓡⓤⓔ ⓣⓗⓐⓣ ʃ ⓢⓘⓝ(ⓧ/ⓨ) ∝ ξ
02:06:45 <j-invariant> ...
02:09:19 <elliott> j-invariant: what the fuck is this xD
02:09:47 <elliott> <what> ok i need a tip
02:09:47 <elliott> <what> how do you get the limits of factorials
02:09:47 <elliott> <what> ?
02:10:11 <j-invariant> >:)
02:10:32 <elliott> j-invariant: is it bad if my Sem type contains things that could be evaluated further?
02:10:38 <elliott> in my defence, my functions never produce such values
02:11:38 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm asking for, like, spiritual guidance here
02:12:15 <j-invariant> it is bad
02:12:41 <elliott> j-invariant: but i need it to do proper showing! :P
02:12:57 <elliott> j-invariant: the only other way is to have an extra type with its own evaluator for no real reason...
02:13:10 <elliott> j-invariant: basically, you could say (SApp (Fun ...) ...), even though that should never happen
02:13:12 <elliott> it's really for
02:13:17 <elliott> (SApp (SVar 42) ...)
02:13:18 <elliott> and the like
02:13:19 <j-invariant> elliott: whta is it trying to do?
02:13:54 <elliott> j-invariant: http://sprunge.us/dCVK
02:14:08 <elliott> j-invariant: Var, SApp, and SVar exist solely to support showing
02:14:13 <elliott> j-invariant: but the only problematic one is SApp
02:14:27 <elliott> in that you can construct (SApp (Fun ...) ...), which should be reduced to ((...) ...)
02:14:38 <elliott> no function there ever constructs that
02:14:40 <elliott> but you can manually
02:14:57 <j-invariant> elliott: Sem shouldn't be the same as Syn
02:15:08 <elliott> j-invariant: well it isn't
02:15:10 <elliott> it just grew into that
02:15:12 <elliott> for this one special case
02:15:15 <elliott> it is _not_ a mirror
02:15:19 <elliott> SApp is used differently to App
02:15:25 <elliott> how do you suggest I do this?
02:15:40 <j-invariant> do what?
02:15:44 <elliott> this
02:15:45 <elliott> :P
02:15:53 <j-invariant> but I don't know what the goal is
02:16:07 <elliott> j-invariant:
02:16:12 <elliott> data Syn = Lam (Syn -> Syn) | App Syn Syn
02:16:12 <elliott> data Sem = Fun (Sem -> Sem)
02:16:12 <elliott> eval :: Syn -> Sem
02:16:12 <elliott> eval (Lam f) = Fun (eval . f . quote)
02:16:12 <elliott> eval (App f x) = f' (eval x) where Fun f' = eval f
02:16:13 <elliott> quote :: Sem -> Syn
02:16:15 <elliott> quote (Fun f) = Lam (quote . f . eval)
02:16:22 <elliott> extend Syn and preferably Sem to have a Show instance
02:16:29 <elliott> in the most elegant, clean and short way possible
02:16:37 <j-invariant> wait how you can quote that Sem
02:16:42 <j-invariant> I tohught you have to have a variable thing in there
02:16:48 <elliott> j-invariant: HOA
02:16:49 <elliott> *HOAS
02:17:04 <elliott> j-invariant: it's beautiful :D
02:17:14 <elliott> i love how the Lam and Fun cases are mirrors of each other
02:20:51 <elliott> j-invariant: any ideas on how to extend it?
02:21:08 <j-invariant> ext,md
02:21:11 <j-invariant> extend to what/?
02:21:29 <elliott> <elliott> extend Syn and preferably Sem to have a Show instance
02:21:29 <elliott> <elliott> in the most elegant, clean and short way possible
02:21:44 <j-invariant> well you need a syntax without lambda in is
02:21:45 <j-invariant> in it
02:21:54 <elliott> j-invariant: eh?
02:22:00 <elliott> j-invariant: it works fine with those, you just pass a gensym
02:22:01 <elliott> pretty much
02:22:10 <j-invariant> like SYN = Lam Name SYN | ...
02:22:23 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah but isn't that the same as basically passing a gensym
02:22:31 <elliott> i guess it's because you can't really evaluate (f x) where f is a free variable
02:22:36 <elliott> j-invariant: ok so do you suggest i make this a third type?
02:22:42 <elliott> Syn, Sem, NameSyn?
02:23:09 <j-invariant> elliott: well maybe it is the same as GENSYM, but what I mean is that the lambda in Syn is completely cosmetic. Whereas the lambda in Sem is actually essential
02:23:24 <cheater00> http://imgur.com/a/dhld6
02:23:24 <cheater00> http://imgur.com/a/dhld6
02:23:25 <cheater00> http://imgur.com/a/dhld6
02:23:57 <elliott> right
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02:24:40 <elliott> hmm what should i call the new type :D
02:24:43 <elliott> NamedSyn is so ugly
02:25:23 <cheater00> elliott: TrueType
02:27:35 <elliott> j-invariant: i can't write Syn -> Named
02:27:39 <elliott> because i'd have to pass a gensym
02:27:58 <elliott> j-invariant: I don't think there is *any* way of doing this without introducing a dummy Var type into Syn
02:28:03 <elliott> which then requires a brother in Sem
02:30:25 <j-invariant> :S
02:30:26 <elliott> lol http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65201 stole my fucking name
02:30:41 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah i'm lost as to how to do it...
02:30:45 <elliott> this is where HOAS fails
02:30:52 <j-invariant> elliott: HOAS is stupid :/
02:30:55 <elliott> oh i know...maybe...
02:30:58 <elliott> j-invariant: but really elegant for this
02:31:01 <j-invariant> elliott: there's no fold on it
02:31:08 <elliott> eh?
02:31:10 <j-invariant> (IIRC)
02:32:00 <j-invariant> elliott: btw, http://i.imgur.com/m4W5N.png
02:34:12 <elliott> j-invariant: hey wow how did you get it rendering like that
02:34:13 <elliott> that is sweet
02:34:19 <j-invariant> elliott: LaTeX
02:34:30 <j-invariant> elliott: which is just hte problem....
02:34:37 <elliott> j-invariant: but, err, it looks like you're mixing up your polynomials and your renderings of polynomials
02:34:47 <elliott> j-invariant: I would put the rendering code in another module or whatever to avoid clashing?
02:35:01 <elliott> that is amazing though
02:35:09 <j-invariant> elliott: that's the problem X)_
02:35:15 <elliott> j-invariant: why can't you do that :)
02:35:33 <j-invariant> elliott: I can do polynomials on their own, and modular arithmetic on it's own.. But how do I do polynomials with modular arithmetic coefficients?
02:35:54 <j-invariant> basically I have to start combining LaTeX cleverly)
02:36:58 <j-invariant> elliott: every. single. thing... I add to this program ends up being a huge hassle
02:37:11 <elliott> j-invariant: ok i need to ask you
02:37:21 <elliott> j-invariant: why are you representing things with their latex display?!?!??!!
02:37:28 <j-invariant> wdhat do you mean
02:37:29 <j-invariant> ?
02:37:33 <elliott> maintain polynomials as abstract objects and then handle rendering to latex in another module
02:37:37 <elliott> that seems like the only sane thing to do by far ...
02:39:25 <j-invariant> elliott: I cna't be bothered fixing this I just wish it waws done
02:39:42 <elliott> j-invariant: well it seems like your program is structured very wrongly
02:39:44 <elliott> *structured very
02:39:51 <j-invariant> realyl? :P
02:39:56 <elliott> j-invariant: it's like you've defined + on IO Ints instead of Ints
02:40:03 <j-invariant> haha
02:40:04 <elliott> i mean, why would you even do that
02:40:09 <elliott> latex is a separate thing!
02:42:36 <j-invariant> elliott: fix my program
02:42:41 <j-invariant> :)
02:42:46 <elliott> j-invariant: gimme the file :P
02:42:54 <j-invariant> it's a whole bunch of fiels
02:42:56 <elliott> also, only if you help program scapegoat
02:42:59 <elliott> j-invariant: tar it up then
02:43:00 <elliott> or put it in
02:43:01 <elliott> a
02:43:03 <elliott> scapegoat repository
02:43:12 <j-invariant> lolj
02:43:27 <j-invariant> step 1 of putting smoething in a scapegoat repo: Implement scapegoat?
02:43:28 <elliott> *Main> showVarred 0 (varify (Lam (\x -> x)))
02:43:28 <elliott> "(\\v0 -> ((\\v1 -> ((\\v2 -> ((\\v3 -> ((\\v4 -> ((\\v5 -> ((\\v6 -> ((\\v7 -> ((\\v8 -> ((\\v9 -> ((\\v10 -> ((\\v11 -> ((\\v12 -> ((\\v13 -> ((\\v14 -> ((\\v15 -> ((\\v16 -> ((\\v17 -> ((\\v18 -> ((\\v19 -> ((\\v20 -> ((\\v21 -> ((\\v22 -> ((\\v23 -> ((\\v24 -> ((\\v25 -> ((\\v26 -> ((\\v27 -> ((\\v28 -> ((\\v29 -> ((\\v30 -> ((\\v31 -> ((\\v32 -> ((\\v33 -> ((\\v34 -> ((\\v35 -> ((\\v36 -> ((\\v37 -> ((\\v38 -> ((\\v39 -> ((\\v40 -> ((\\v41 -
02:43:28 <elliott> > ((\\v42 -> ((\\v43 -> ((\\v44 -> ((\\v45 -> ((\\v46 -> ((\\v47 -> ((\\v48 -> ((\\v49 -> ((\\v50 -> ((\\v51 -> ((\\v52 -> ((\\v53 -> ((\\v54 -> ((\\v55 -> ((\\v56 -> ((\\v57 -> ((\\v58 -> ((\\v59 -> ((\\v60 -> ((\\v61 -> ((\\v62 -> ((\\v63 -> ((\\v64 -> ((\\v65 -> ((\\v66 -> ((\\v67 -> ((\\v68 -> ((\\v69 -> ((\\v70 -> ((\\v71 -> ((\\v72 -> ((\\v73 -> ((\\v74 -> ((\\v75 -> ((\\v76 -> ((\\v77 -> ((\\v78 -> ((\\v79 -> ((\\v80 -> ((\\v81 -> ((\\v82
02:43:29 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `->'
02:43:31 <elliott> -> ((\\v83 -> ((\\v84 -> ((\\v85 -> ((\\v86 -> ((\\v87 -> ((\\v88 -> ((\\v89 -> ((\\v90 -> ((\\v91 -> ((\\v92 -> ((\\v93 -> ((\\v94 -> ((\\v95 -> ((\\v96 -> ((\\v97 -> ((\\v98 -> ((\\v99 -> ((\\v100 -> ((\\v101 -> ((\\v102 -> ((\\v103 -> ((\\v104 -> ((\\v105 -> ((\\v106 -> ((\\v107 -> ((\\v108 -> ((\\v109 -> ((\\v110 -> ((\\v111 -> ((\\v112 -> ((\\v113 -> ((\\v114 -> ((\\v115 -> ((\\v116 -> ((\\v117 -> ((\\v118 -> ((\\v119 -> ((\\v120 -> ((\\v121
02:43:36 <elliott> -> ((\\v122 -> ((\\v123 -> ((\\v124 -> ((\\v125 -> ((\\v126 -> ((\\v127 -> ((\\v128 -> ((\\v129 -> ((\\v130 -> ((\\v131 -> ((\\v132 -> ((\\v133 -> ((\\v134 -> ((\\v135 -> ((\\v136 -> ((\\v137 -> ((\\v138 -> ((\\v139 -> ((\\v140 -> ((\\v141 -> ((\\v142 -> ((\\v143 -> ((\\v144 -> ((\\v145 -> ((\\v146 -> ((\\v147 -> ((\\v148 -> ((\\v149 -> ((\\v150 -> ((\\v151 -> ((\\v152 -> ((\\v153 -> ((\\v154 -> ((\\v155 -> ((\\v156 -> ((\\v157 -> ((\\v158 ->
02:43:41 <elliott> j-invariant: i think my code is broken
02:43:43 <elliott> and yes, that's step one
02:43:44 <j-invariant> why you shouldn't use /exec -o ^
02:43:50 <elliott> that wasn't exec -o
02:43:53 <elliott> that was copy and paste magic!
02:45:23 <elliott> my idea didn't work :(
02:45:24 <elliott> hoas is lame
02:45:25 <elliott> :P
02:45:31 <j-invariant> hehe
02:45:35 <j-invariant> some people really love HOAS I think
02:46:22 <elliott> j-invariant: it's so cool except you CAN'T FUCKING PRINT SHIT OUT
02:46:36 <elliott> j-invariant: so are you totally coding scapegoat
02:47:09 <j-invariant> sort of
02:47:20 <j-invariant> actually you never said how it works
02:47:31 <elliott> j-invariant: quite well!
02:47:36 <elliott> >_>
02:48:07 <j-invariant> My dogs got no nose
02:48:23 <j-invariant> I feel like a pair of curtains
02:48:53 <elliott> pull yourself terrible
02:55:42 <j-invariant> elliott: A LaTeX object will render "\\sqrt{2}" for example... what should that stsring be called?
02:55:58 <elliott> j-invariant: where it can be any object being rendered?
02:55:59 <elliott> j-invariant: "latex"
02:56:28 <j-invariant> (struct latex (string) ...) <-- need a better name for the string :/
02:56:31 <elliott> j-invariant: seriously though... you want to make polynomial an abstract structure, now, and have one function to do latex rendering
02:56:34 <elliott> so you'd do
02:56:39 <elliott> (to-latex poly1)
02:56:40 <j-invariant> i'm rewriting it now :P
02:56:42 <elliott> and get that picture out
02:56:43 <elliott> yay
02:56:44 <elliott> j-invariant: make it
02:56:46 <elliott> j-invariant: uh
02:56:49 <elliott> j-invariant: call it "code"
02:56:59 <elliott> j-invariant: wait, what is the rest of struct latex
02:57:00 <j-invariant> hmm
02:57:04 <j-invariant> actually this doesn't even work
02:57:07 <elliott> j-invariant: wait, what is the rest of struct latex
02:57:24 <elliott> i wanna know :)
02:58:05 <j-invariant> elliott: it has a custom print method to render and display itself
02:58:15 <elliott> j-invariant: so it has only one field?
02:58:19 <j-invariant> yes
02:58:27 <elliott> j-invariant: I suggest you ditch that model.
02:58:49 <j-invariant> why?
02:58:50 <elliott> j-invariant: Have to-latex, taking a polynomial, and outputting a LaTeX string. Then have render-latex, taking a LaTeX string, and outputting a Racket picture.
02:58:58 <elliott> j-invariant: Then have render, which is just render-latex . to-latex
02:59:07 <elliott> j-invariant: This will be much simpler, and you don't have to come up with variable names :-)
02:59:16 <elliott> Structures with one element are a bit iffy in Scheme I would say, they feel wrong
02:59:32 <elliott> Remember that you can use a single type for many semantic meanings in Scheme and derivatives
02:59:46 <elliott> And if you can do things nicely with an existing type, such as strings and pictures, you should
02:59:57 <elliott> j-invariant: try that model, I think it'll turn out cleanly
03:00:44 <elliott> fizzie: Why did you remove the gio dependency from mcmap?
03:01:27 <elliott> fizzie: Also: Can I factor out the platform-specific bits (i.e. the ifdef WIN32/else) into a win32.c and a posix.c, so that the rest of the code just calls functions? ifdef-portability really irks me.
03:03:26 <elliott> ineiros: Oh, look at that; hMod isn't going to be updated.
03:03:27 <elliott> Vorpal: ^
03:03:35 <elliott> Stock Minecraft server until Bukkit comes out which will take months.
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06:22:33 <fizzie> I had to do it with raw sockets to fix the Windows build (since GIO sockets there are just too broken); since I had that in place already I realized I could just use the same code for both. Also "yes", assuming it doesn't go all messy-looking from that.
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06:47:10 <fizzie> Heh, so hMod won't be updated because they couldn't figure out how to do that even after being "all day" at it; everyone knows that either you can do it in a day or else it's just impossible.
06:47:52 <fizzie> Anyway, just because they won't doesn't mean someone else won't go through the trouble of cobbling together a build.
06:50:53 <fizzie> At least Bukkit is enterprisey enough to have trouble with "licensing issues" such that they need to "get in contact with Mojang to discuss what we're doing".
06:51:25 <fizzie> Minecraft server mods seem to be serious business.
06:55:24 <fizzie> Incidentally, someone's public server (the alarmingly named "FurMine") is listed as to having a beta 1.2 hMod build.
06:57:20 <fizzie> Also a Finnish server ("Kemicraft") says they're running 1.2_01 with their own unofficial hMod build.
07:00:34 <fizzie> (They also sell "VIP privileges" == access to a kit for 3/5/10 EUR -- steel/diamond/both kits -- on Kemicraft. That's enterprisey in a whole another way.)
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07:13:48 <zzo38> RIICHI!!!
07:14:34 <pikhq> rîti?
07:15:39 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, same thing.
07:15:52 <pikhq> Care to explain the significance thereof?
07:16:14 <zzo38> pikhq: Mahjong.
07:16:21 <pikhq> Oh, *duh*.
07:17:57 <zzo38> Do you know how many different names the normal chess game is called by?
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07:20:55 <zzo38> What can you make out from this chess position? http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=maeko-makov333-2009-359-344
07:23:04 <pikhq> zzo38: Probably gets worse when you realise that chess has a freaking *family tree* going on.
07:23:16 <pikhq> And that each one has its own name.
07:25:40 <zzo38> The normal chess game is called FIDE chess, Orthochess, Orthodox chess, International chess, Western chess, and the "Mad Queen" variant.
07:26:41 <pikhq> And that's just in English. >:D
07:28:46 <zzo38> Yes, that's just in English.
07:32:23 <zzo38> Do you know any more that are used in English?
07:33:11 <pikhq> "Normal chess".
07:34:10 <zzo38> Yes, of course. And also "chess"
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07:40:50 <zzo38> What can you figure out from this chess position?
07:41:12 <zzo38> It is the black player's turn. What move?
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07:46:37 <zzo38> I can see five ways to get out of check. Can you find more?
07:51:06 <pikhq> Roll one of those d6's?
07:51:16 <zzo38> pikhq: Not allowed.
07:51:50 <zzo38> (You may increase one of them by one, though. But doing so would not get you out of check, anyways.)
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08:19:27 <zzo38> The black player is going to lose the queen.
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08:45:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> ineiros: Oh, look at that; hMod isn't going to be updated.
08:45:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: ^
08:45:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Stock Minecraft server until Bukkit comes out which will take months.
08:46:00 <Vorpal> oh well, nothing to do about it
08:46:03 <Vorpal> (source?)
08:46:59 <Vorpal> ah found it
08:47:01 <Vorpal> oh well
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09:38:00 <zzo38> I tried to knock a channel because I was not invited, but I do not believe there is anyone there.
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10:06:05 <zzo38> Answer me!
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10:17:46 <impomatic> Hi :-)
10:18:50 <impomatic> Does anyone have a TRS-80?
10:30:32 <oklopol> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65201 <<< this guy is an idiot, you have 3 dimensions in minecraft, which basically lets you do this already, and even his trivial diagrams aren't optimal
10:30:39 <oklopol> wait umm
10:31:04 <oklopol> scratch that
10:31:11 <oklopol> that's so stupid i don't need an argument
10:32:50 <oklopol> maybe if you could color more objects than just wool
10:32:58 <oklopol> and then redstone would be one of those
10:33:48 <oklopol> oh and also i think that's a good idea, just that the guy is an idiot :D
10:34:27 <oklopol> "only an idiot would come up with this particular good idea"
10:34:47 <oklopol> o
10:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Psssht, bluestone is bettr.
10:38:59 <Phantom_Hoover> *better
10:41:39 <oklopol> surely, that would be a very small-scale thing only useful, but it'd take 3 minutes to implement
10:41:46 <oklopol> *-only useful
10:41:57 <oklopol> did some heavy refactoring on that sentence
10:42:40 <oklopol> so what is your bluestone like exactly
10:43:00 <oklopol> is it just a general idea of what you can do with it or some actual spex
10:43:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It allows more interactions with the environment and requires constant power, basically.
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10:46:43 <oklopol> and what are those interactions
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10:48:54 <oklopol> i mean if i find bluestone ore, what can i do with it, can i make a bluestone block? can i eat it? can i feed it to a creeper to make it walk backwards?
10:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, you can wire things together with it.
10:51:32 <oklopol> erm, okay?
10:51:42 <oklopol> does that make them move?
10:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the things to do was to have a more elegant wiring system.
10:52:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Redstone's is too clunky.
10:53:22 <oklopol> err k
10:53:32 <oklopol> i thought you had moving blocks and shit
10:53:39 <oklopol> so how is the wiring system more elegant?
10:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> More compact, can be put on roofs and walls etc.
10:54:17 <oklopol> couldn't you just make redstone do thate
10:54:18 <oklopol> *that
10:54:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, probably.
10:55:31 <oklopol> :\
10:55:41 <oklopol> maybe i should've asked elliott
10:55:58 <oklopol> he'd've been all like AND THEN LET ME IMPROVISE SOME SEMANTICS FOR HOW BLUESTONE MOVES BLOCKS AROUND
11:00:58 <Vorpal> <oklopol> maybe if you could color more objects than just wool <-- iirc someone was working on a mod for stained glass
11:01:30 <Vorpal> wouldn't work on SMP as it currently stands due to needing to add new stuff client side for it
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11:04:06 <Vorpal> oklopol, he would also be be like "omg lets add lava and TNT to it" or such.
11:04:27 <Vorpal> (nothing wrong with that, in moderation)
11:10:10 <oklopol> when a bluestone signal is sent to lav
11:10:11 <oklopol> a
11:10:16 <oklopol> a huge lava monster is born
11:10:31 <oklopol> and also
11:10:38 <oklopol> when bluestone signal is applied to tnt
11:10:45 <oklopol> a huge tnt monster is born
11:10:58 <oklopol> it's like a creeper but slightly deadlier.
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11:28:47 <Vorpal> oklopol, "slightly"?
11:30:09 <drakhan> Hi there.
11:30:43 <drakhan> As I think, many people in here are interested in esoteric, spiritual development, occult, yes?
11:31:42 <Vorpal> drakhan, no. It is about esoteric programming languages
11:34:00 <drakhan> Oh, my bad :x
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11:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Been a while since we had a neopagan.
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12:00:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Chrome doesn't have AdBlock Plus.
12:00:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh.
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15:07:52 <Gregor> "B has got it into her nut that A is in love with her. Now until recently, B was engaged to ... errr" "Shall we call him C, sir?" "Well alright, Caesar is as good a name as any."
15:08:56 <coppro> lol
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15:13:54 * oerjan tries to remember the names one cryptologist used that were real names but pronounced like A and B
15:14:02 <oerjan> i think Bea was one of them
15:14:10 <coppro> hah
15:14:33 <oerjan> the other one was something irish-like and thus impossible to guess the spelling of
15:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Abhmnghe?
15:15:48 <oerjan> and iirc it was male
15:15:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not _that_ absurd
15:16:09 <oerjan> something like aeion or the like, i think
15:21:08 <oerjan> ah found it
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15:21:12 <oerjan> Aodh and Bea
15:21:19 <coppro> ...
15:21:58 <oerjan> (wikipedia's Irish name article to the rescue)
15:22:39 <oerjan> Card Colm's column is where i saw it first
15:25:21 <oerjan> um *-'s
15:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaoSzCfa9OM
15:25:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow.
15:28:01 -!- variable has joined.
15:30:47 <Phantom_Hoover> variable!
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15:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant!
15:33:40 <j-invariant> hey Phantom_Hoover
15:33:47 <j-invariant> hows it going
15:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Left.
15:35:00 <j-invariant> 07:13:54 * oerjan tries to remember the names one cryptologist used that were real names but pronounced like A and B
15:35:12 <j-invariant> Someone deviated form Alice and Bob? TREASON
15:35:14 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: oh, neat
15:35:53 <oerjan> j-invariant: it wasn't actually cryptology btw, it was mathematical card games
15:35:59 <olsner> especially like how it's all sunk into the ground to what must be the same depth as the height of those example cells
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15:46:30 <elliott> hi
15:47:10 <j-invariant> If you don't beleive in caetgory theory you will be eater by sabre toothed tigers
15:47:35 <elliott> category theory is like GOD, how can you BELIEVE in it!!!OI
15:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Every time you say you don't believe in category theory a fairy dies.
15:47:54 <j-invariant> http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/s0894694/agda-course/
15:47:57 <j-invariant> wdat's it going to teach?
15:47:57 <elliott> # Uncomment to get a beep at grub start
15:47:58 <elliott> #GRUB_INIT_TUNE="480 440 1"
15:48:00 <elliott> omg
15:48:03 <elliott> i can make it play a tune
15:48:07 <elliott> best day
15:48:14 <oerjan> j-invariant: so you'll be gored by big cats?
15:48:23 <elliott> *groan*
15:48:45 <oerjan> elliott: hey i wouldn't even have noticed if not for the egregious misspellings
15:48:53 <elliott> :D
15:50:42 <j-invariant> elliott: hi
15:51:31 <elliott> hi
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15:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, I could always break in if given suitable payment.
15:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, and I can use the opportunity to kidnap Conor McBride.
15:56:38 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:59:05 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: do you have to pay?
15:59:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know.
15:59:28 -!- elliott has joined.
15:59:38 <j-invariant> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/J0U4t.png
15:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> But I have other things to waste my time on.
15:59:47 <elliott> pikhq: Kernel modesetting isn't supported by the native nvidia drivers, right?
16:00:13 <elliott> j-invariant: great! did you try my idea of ditching the latex type?
16:00:16 <j-invariant> no
16:00:21 <elliott> psht :p
16:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> What's this?
16:00:36 <elliott> wait, did you still not make polynomials abstract objects?
16:00:43 <j-invariant> http://paste.lisp.org/display/118670
16:00:58 <j-invariant> this is my generic function system
16:01:03 <elliott> j-invariant: ouch... i'm not sure you want to do that
16:01:10 <j-invariant> do what
16:01:12 <elliott> that
16:01:19 <j-invariant> be specific
16:01:20 <oklopol> programming, ever again
16:01:23 <elliott> that whole paste :P
16:01:37 * oklopol didn't actually open the file
16:02:44 <j-invariant> elliott: Okay you should see my actual code first, because maybe you have imagined it is different than it is
16:02:53 <elliott> possible
16:04:41 * elliott reboots
16:05:26 <oerjan> <oklopol> programming, ever again <-- what
16:06:02 <j-invariant> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/sI2Ot.png & http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XWS1MuCj
16:07:13 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:08:00 <oklopol> "<j-invariant> do what" "<oklopol> programming, ever again"
16:08:47 <oklopol> i figured if elliott isn't direct about it, it must be pretty devastating
16:09:15 <oklopol> if elliott was a doctor and a guy had cancer he'd go to the guy and say "hey mister X, you have cancer"
16:09:29 <oerjan> ah.
16:09:43 <oklopol> and then the guy'd be like "oh my god, is it terminal" and elliott would be all like "yes."
16:10:22 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:10:34 <oerjan> YOU KILLED THEM BOTH
16:10:43 * oerjan starts getting nervous
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16:11:06 <oerjan> eek, zombie
16:11:40 <oklopol> and the me who'd be his secretary would go all like isn't terminal cancer one despair-filled can, sir
16:11:49 <oklopol> and elliott would go like "lol, classic oklo"
16:12:09 <oklopol> and then the guy would leave because he thought elliott was an occultist doctor
16:12:32 -!- sftp has joined.
16:12:52 <oklopol> but he's actually just a completely insane doctor that specializes in curing methods that aren't at all practical, just weird.
16:13:08 <oklopol> and everyone would be mining the walls of the hospital all day
16:13:20 <oklopol> i think i'm having a dream
16:13:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Minecraft hospital!
16:13:30 <oklopol> i need to go steal some yoghurt ->
16:13:39 <olsner> ah, extcore! I think I could build jonguilexiphonaugh on that (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/extcore)
16:13:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: beware of creepers in the corridors!
16:14:07 <Phantom_Hoover> You pay taxes in the form of wheat and then there's just a dispenser that throws bread at you.
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16:14:11 <oklopol> mm yohgurt
16:14:18 <oklopol> that was a typo
16:14:29 <oerjan> yo, hgurt
16:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> My yog hurts!
16:14:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: too much yoga!
16:15:42 <oerjan> beware of yog sothoth
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16:21:00 * Phantom_Hoover falls into a pit of boredom
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16:21:15 <elliott> ubuntu is working stupidly well
16:21:44 <elliott> 08:09:15 <oklopol> if elliott was a doctor and a guy had cancer he'd go to the guy and say "hey mister X, you have cancer"
16:21:44 <elliott> 08:09:43 <oklopol> and then the guy'd be like "oh my god, is it terminal" and elliott would be all like "yes."
16:21:44 <elliott> <3
16:21:52 <oerjan> well, it's certainly good to hear that ubuntu is so good at working stupidly!
16:21:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I would have caused the cancer, naturally.
16:22:07 <elliott> j-invariant: i see that code but i still think you should do it my way :)
16:22:22 <elliott> because i'm awesome, you see
16:23:03 <oerjan> elliott: but then j-invariant might get an awesomeness overdose! have you thought of THAT?
16:23:09 <elliott> tru
16:23:22 <elliott> j-invariant: what I would do is: (define (render x) (texvc-render (to-latex x)))
16:23:26 <elliott> j-invariant: then, using your generic thing
16:23:34 <elliott> (define-generic-procedure (to-latex x) define-latex)
16:23:39 <elliott> j-invariant: and they return strings
16:23:42 <oerjan> render flesh
16:23:53 <elliott> j-invariant: then you can just do (to-latex 3) to get "3" and (render 3) to get $3$
16:24:10 <elliott> j-invariant: oh and btw i'm sure Racket already has a library for multiple-dispatch style stuff like you are doing with define-generic procedure
16:24:19 <elliott> and a proper type system too rather than using predicates like that
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16:25:53 <elliott> 08:13:39 <olsner> ah, extcore! I think I could build jonguilexiphonaugh on that (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/extcore)
16:25:53 <elliott> naturally
16:26:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know, Minecraft is sorta like Eversion Lite.
16:27:16 <olsner> elliott: the major obstacle for making progress on that is that I need a frontend for the source language, and I think haskell should be fine as that source language
16:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ...*how*?
16:28:08 <elliott> "Oh, it's like *LEGO*. For kids." "Sheesh, this grass is obnoxiously bright. And I'm this stupid block-guy?" "And I make a little cute house. How wonderful and mature." "Hey, this cave looks interesting." "Bit dark in here, oh well." [hurrrrrrrrng] "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT" [slrrrrrrp] "AH OH GOD WHAT ARE YOU I'M DYING OH FUCK" [You died!]
16:28:13 <olsner> otoh, I'll need to check that I can actually use GHC Core directly :)
16:28:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I said SORTA
16:28:38 <elliott> olsner: what is it, again?
16:28:47 <elliott> the kim jong-ilasjoifjofdgjkhklfjgh
16:28:57 <olsner> elliott: not much more than a name :)
16:30:48 <olsner> elliott: jonguilexiphonaugh, I don't see why you have such problems spelling it :P
16:30:54 <elliott> quite
16:31:07 <elliott> olsner: so you are totally going to use SCAPEGOAT to manage the jonguilexiphonaugh repository???????
16:31:10 <elliott> yes????
16:31:17 <olsner> I might if you tell me what the heck that is
16:31:37 <olsner> does it have an implementation yet?
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16:40:57 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
16:41:21 <elliott> olsner: not _yet_, but i am actually working on it
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: what I would do is: (define (render x) (texvc-render (to-latex x)))
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: then, using your generic thing
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> (define-generic-procedure (to-latex x) define-latex)
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: and they return strings
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: then you can just do (to-latex 3) to get "3" and (render 3) to get $3$
16:41:33 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: oh and btw i'm sure Racket already has a library for multiple-dispatch style stuff like you are doing with define-generic procedure
16:41:36 <elliott> <elliott> and a proper type system too rather than using predicates like that
16:42:03 <elliott> i'm going to assume Vorpal has said "down?"
16:42:04 <elliott> and reply yes
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16:43:06 <j-invariant> elliott: did you see my image and source code paste
16:43:10 <elliott> yes
16:43:14 <elliott> and replied with that suggestion :>
16:51:05 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
16:51:20 * Vorpal looks
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16:51:52 <elliott> (That screenshot really makes me wish for biome-compliant grass in Painterly that worked on the side (Notch's bug).)
16:51:55 <elliott> (Lovely colour of grass.)
16:52:01 <elliott> Blends in really well with the scenery.
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16:53:56 <j-invariant> I can't figure how to remap a key
16:54:40 <elliott> j-invariant: in what
16:54:49 <j-invariant> UBUNTU
16:54:54 <elliott> j-invariant: what key to what other key
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16:57:13 <j-invariant> elliott: "turn off internet" key to do nothing
16:57:45 <elliott> j-invariant: Run "xev" from terminal and focus the window it pops up, wait a second, press the key, and look (without moving mouse or anything) at the last event in the terminla
16:58:06 <elliott> Specifically the "keycode" part of a KeyPress/KeyRelease event pair.
16:58:07 <j-invariant> elliott: I tried that :( then xmodmapping it to NoSymbol
16:58:16 <elliott> What went wrong?
16:58:28 <j-invariant> well there was no error messages at all, but it doesn't do anything
16:58:34 <j-invariant> the key just continued to do what it does
16:58:51 <elliott> j-invariant: what file did you put it in?
16:59:08 <j-invariant> what file? no file
16:59:16 <elliott> what command did you run
16:59:17 <j-invariant> I just use xmodmap -e 'keycode ...
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17:00:07 <elliott> j-invariant: right... just _have_ to check, you didn't reboot after right? :-P
17:00:15 <j-invariant> no I didn't
17:00:26 <j-invariant> Itried putting the command into .xinitrc and rebotting though
17:00:30 <j-invariant> that ddidn't do anything either
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17:00:53 <elliott> so you did "keycode 358934593475345 = NoSymbol"?
17:00:59 <j-invariant> yes
17:01:05 <j-invariant> except its' a 3 digit number
17:01:10 <elliott> yeah yeah
17:01:16 <elliott> j-invariant: probably what happens is that it turns it off in hardware, and then sends the key
17:01:20 <elliott> so there's nothing you can do
17:01:21 <elliott> sorry :/
17:01:25 <j-invariant> I will try BIOS
17:01:29 <j-invariant> maybe there is a configure option there
17:01:32 <elliott> probably the best idea, yeah
17:01:35 <j-invariant> but I don't knoww hot to access that.
17:02:35 <elliott> j-invariant: erm when you boot your pc up hammer delete and f2
17:02:38 <elliott> those are the most common keys
17:02:46 <elliott> it usually says on the screen somewhere what key will do it
17:02:53 <elliott> but try del and f2 first, just hammer them constantly :P
17:03:03 <j-invariant> "If the OS can't see anything when you press the brightness keys, it could be because they're handled directly by the BIOS. The battle is not completely lost — it is in principle possible to hack the BIOS — but the difficulty level is considerably raised."
17:03:40 <elliott> j-invariant: just try booting into the bios, sometimes they have options to disable the keys
17:03:44 <elliott> it's not hard to use the bios :-P
17:04:17 <j-invariant> how do you do it?
17:04:24 <elliott> j-invariant: <elliott> j-invariant: erm when you boot your pc up hammer delete and f2
17:04:24 <elliott> <elliott> those are the most common keys
17:04:24 <elliott> <elliott> it usually says on the screen somewhere what key will do it
17:04:24 <elliott> <elliott> but try del and f2 first, just hammer them constantly :P
17:04:36 <j-invariant> okay thanks ill try!
17:04:39 <elliott> and then it's just an easy menu-driven interface :P
17:04:43 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
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17:08:38 <j-invariant> elliott: great! that fixed it, thanks
17:08:44 <elliott> j-invariant: :)
17:08:45 <elliott> no problem
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17:08:58 <j-invariant> FINALLY
17:09:04 <j-invariant> that was annoying me for ages
17:09:09 <j-invariant> kept pressing "turn off internet" by accident
17:12:11 <coppro> hah
17:35:26 <j-invariant> I g9ess I will dgo on minecraft
17:35:40 <j-invariant> h I can intall stuff now
17:36:00 <Vorpal> elliott, yes?
17:36:10 <elliott> Vorpal: "I would like detailed birch bark for my birch trees." or "I would like detailed dark birch bark for my birch trees.", latter is best, see the customiser's previews
17:36:19 <elliott> the former is just too high contrast, *really* ugly
17:36:34 <elliott> it's brighter in-game than it looks there, btw, for both of them
17:36:36 <Vorpal> elliott, the former I think. well, I'll see how it looks when I find a birch
17:36:44 <Vorpal> are they biome specific?
17:36:50 <elliott> not relaly
17:36:51 <elliott> *really
17:36:58 <elliott> try tree farming
17:37:04 <elliott> or just going to ungenerated terrain :D
17:37:55 <j-invariant> elliott: how do I find the most recent versions of e.g. optimine?
17:37:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> or just going to ungenerated terrain :D <--- that would be far and take ages
17:38:06 <elliott> j-invariant: um you get them from the forum
17:38:11 <elliott> e.g. http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717
17:38:24 <j-invariant> yeah how do you know that's the most recent one?
17:38:25 <elliott> j-invariant: I can link you to all the mods I mentioned if you want, they can be hard to google
17:38:32 <elliott> j-invariant: um because it's started by the mod author
17:38:34 <elliott> who keeps the thread updated
17:38:39 <j-invariant> okay
17:38:42 <elliott> they can edit the fpost
17:38:43 <elliott> *the post
17:38:50 <j-invariant> ,elliott I just didnt'w atn to install a bunch of weird versions like an idiot :P
17:39:14 <elliott> j-invariant: with mip mapping, the link in the first post is actuallywrong
17:39:20 <elliott> j-invariant: I can link you to the correct one, but remember the order :P
17:39:37 <oklopol> *mipmapping, please be more careful about typos
17:39:40 <elliott> optimine -> mcregion -> mipmapping -> better light+grass -> texture pack
17:39:49 <elliott> oklopol: it's actually MIP mapping
17:39:51 <elliott> shortened to mipmapping
17:39:57 <elliott> so mip mapping is correct if you eschew lowercase
17:40:01 <elliott> ergo f u
17:40:37 <oklopol> i just needed to point out j-invariant's awesomely typo filled message
17:40:55 <oklopol> which admittedly just had two centers of typoty
17:41:01 <oklopol> typoty?
17:41:03 <oklopol> anyhow
17:41:11 <elliott> j-invariant: when you get to mipmapping let me know and i'll link you to the right version for the new beta
17:41:25 <elliott> j-invariant: do you use painterly already?
17:41:31 <j-invariant> no I don't use any mods of anything yet
17:41:38 <j-invariant> I'm trying optimine now
17:41:45 <elliott> ah
17:41:49 <oklopol> so is mipmapping from the latin word MIP
17:41:51 <oklopol> wait
17:41:53 <elliott> oklopol: yes
17:41:53 <elliott> :D
17:41:56 <oklopol> did i ask this already
17:42:05 <elliott> oklopol: multium in parvo or something
17:42:07 <oklopol> i didn't, but i asked something related
17:42:11 <elliott> multum in parvo
17:42:12 <oklopol> parvo?
17:42:15 <elliott> many in one
17:42:18 <elliott> well
17:42:21 <elliott> "much in a small space"
17:42:27 <j-invariant> elliott: how do I check if optimine is working :|
17:42:31 <elliott> j-invariant: you don't, it is
17:42:37 <elliott> if you did the steps, and it starts, then it's working :)
17:42:40 <j-invariant> guh
17:42:46 <elliott> if you forgot to delete META-INF it wouldn't even start
17:42:48 <elliott> so you did it right
17:42:51 <j-invariant> I have no idea whether this is any different from the normal one
17:42:59 <elliott> it is, don't worry
17:43:00 <elliott> do mcregion next
17:43:11 <j-invariant> also elliott, don't you have to reinstall these mods every time there is an update
17:43:11 <elliott> j-invariant: painterly has rather bad defaults and HUNDREDS of customisation options, so you'll want to go through http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php sometime soon
17:43:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, still no sign of a server?
17:43:19 <elliott> and yes, but it really doesn't take that long
17:43:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, it's updated
17:43:28 <elliott> j-invariant: I can apply all these mods in like... 3 minutes
17:43:32 <elliott> j-invariant: besides, you won't have to do it every update
17:43:35 <elliott> since they won't be updated themselves yet
17:43:41 <elliott> so it's really every update plus a few days
17:43:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, I mean that SSP one.
17:43:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh. Indeed.
17:43:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *SMP
17:43:58 <j-invariant> elliott: man I dunno if I like this it sounds like a problematic thing
17:44:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But a322 is back up!
17:44:07 <elliott> j-invariant: like what?
17:44:07 <j-invariant> having to convert saves back and forth if an update comes out
17:44:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yaaaaay!
17:44:19 <elliott> j-invariant: You don't have to install it, but it's only one command to convert them.
17:44:23 <elliott> And it speeds up single-player immensely.
17:44:26 <elliott> But it's your game ofc :P
17:44:36 <j-invariant> it just sounds like somethign that might go wrong
17:44:56 <elliott> j-invariant: Scaevolus is a very well-respected modder
17:45:02 <elliott> j-invariant: in fact part of optimine was included in the latest update
17:45:06 <elliott> by Mojang
17:45:10 <elliott> I'd trust it, but it's up to you :P
17:45:14 <elliott> It is a big speedup
17:45:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Notch and the Mojangs: http://i.imgur.com/CVAYf.jpg (via reddit)
17:45:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I saw.
17:45:55 <elliott> j-invariant: you can skip mcregion, all the other mods will still work fine
17:46:22 <elliott> j-invariant: i'll link you to the right mipmapping download
17:46:34 <elliott> j-invariant: http://up.dafk.net/files/9de39/minecraftmipmap4dev.zip
17:46:35 <j-invariant> elliott: how do I know if mcregion has installed properly :/
17:46:41 <elliott> j-invariant: it is
17:46:42 <elliott> don't worry
17:46:46 <elliott> it's impossible to install it wrongly
17:46:49 <elliott> if you copied the files over
17:46:51 <elliott> and it starts
17:46:54 <elliott> then you did it right
17:47:10 <elliott> j-invariant: you don't have to delete META-INF in future btw, since you already did
17:47:28 <elliott> j-invariant: note that Better Light/Grass are applied differently to most other mods
17:47:43 <j-invariant> it does feel faster but I don't know if it REALLY is
17:47:51 <elliott> j-invariant: it's not slower, so who cares :P
17:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, has mcmap been updated for Beta 1.2?
17:47:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No.
17:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED
17:48:16 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.multiupload.com/ZJWVAP6EUB this is better light/grass -- unpack the zip into ~/.minecraft, you don't need to touch the jar
17:48:25 <elliott> j-invariant: then do "java -jar MrMPatcher.jar" inside .minecraft
17:48:42 <elliott> j-invariant: tick Better Light, Better Grass, and SMChat if you want (simplemap doesn't work without tweaking in the latest version), and click patch
17:48:56 <elliott> j-invariant: only do that after mipmapping though
17:49:09 <elliott> otherwise mipmapping will overwrite better light & better grass
17:49:26 <j-invariant> okay
17:49:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: No, but now that there's a vanilla 1.2_01 up, I think I'll update it.
17:50:07 <fizzie> As soon as this render finishes.
17:50:18 <elliott> fizzie: I'll factor out portamability stuff into separate files first.
17:50:28 <elliott> I'll test OS X compilation sometime too.
17:50:48 <elliott> fizzie: SO CAN I MOVE THE MCMAP REPOSITORY TO GOATPEN, THE ONLY SCAPEGOAT HOST
17:50:52 <elliott> *THAT MATTERS
17:51:01 <fizzie> I don't think it'll really overlap.
17:51:07 <fizzie> You can host your ML rewrite there. :p
17:52:31 <j-invariant> elliott: I installed MrMMods but it doesn't show in mods
17:52:39 <elliott> j-invariant: it shouldn't
17:52:41 <elliott> there is no official mod support yet
17:52:47 <elliott> j-invariant: did you run the patcher and everything?
17:53:00 <j-invariant> yes
17:53:04 <elliott> j-invariant: just load a world
17:53:06 <j-invariant> the lighting has improved ;D
17:53:08 <elliott> j-invariant: and look at the lighting of blocks
17:53:08 <elliott> yep
17:53:11 <elliott> j-invariant: and also, look at grass on a hill
17:53:14 <elliott> you'll see it goes down all the way
17:53:27 <elliott> j-invariant: btw you have to use better grass for now, better light on its own doesn't work properly
17:53:31 <j-invariant> hey I found a way to get infinite wool
17:53:34 <elliott> j-invariant: did you get mipmapping installed?
17:53:45 <j-invariant> just take some wool, drown yourself go and pick it up again and the sheep will have its wool back
17:53:56 <elliott> lol
17:53:59 <j-invariant> elliott: I have no idea, I did "install it" but there is no confirmation that it worked
17:54:11 <elliott> j-invariant: go to the top of a mountain and look at a mountain further away
17:54:17 <elliott> if it looks smooth, then mipmapping is working
17:54:30 <elliott> also if you stand on some land and look at where it meets the first block on top
17:54:34 <elliott> if that's smoothed, then it's working
17:54:35 <elliott> also
17:54:38 <elliott> if you look at a big sea
17:54:43 <elliott> and it just becomes blue the further away it is
17:54:44 <elliott> then it's working
17:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, hah, a squid on land
17:55:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Screenshot?
17:55:22 <elliott> SILLY SQUID. YOU'RE NOT MEANT TO BE THERE.
17:55:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it is next to the water stream near subrary bridge
17:55:46 <elliott> Vorpal: It'll probably be gone by the time I get there.
17:55:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm standing there atm. Just get on now and walk there?
17:55:59 <j-invariant> do I do mcpatcher now
17:56:10 <elliott> j-invariant: no
17:56:11 <Vorpal> or wait, now it went away
17:56:18 <elliott> j-invariant: you use that to apply the texture pac
17:56:19 <elliott> k
17:56:26 <elliott> j-invariant: go through http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php and make your selections
17:56:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well it was moving weirdly, that a screenshot can't capture
17:56:41 <Vorpal> like how pigs move when on fire
17:56:53 <elliott> j-invariant: mcpatcher's checkboxes are confusingly named, but basically you want to have them all ticked apart from Custom Water and Animated Water (trust me, even if this makes no sense, this gives you painterly water and keeps the rest working)
17:57:00 <elliott> j-invariant: but you need to feed it a texture pack
17:57:00 <Vorpal> bit instead of up/down, it did it horizontally
17:57:02 <elliott> thus http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php
17:57:02 <Vorpal> but*
17:57:25 <elliott> j-invariant: http://github.com/downloads/pclewis/mcpatcher/mcpatcher-1.1.11.jar put this wherever, but yeah, you need to customise painterly first
17:57:28 <Vorpal> ah no it is there
17:57:30 <Vorpal> I just timed out
17:57:31 <elliott> j-invariant: I can give you the painterly pack I use
17:57:35 <elliott> which I used to take that screenshot you saw
17:57:39 <elliott> if you don't wanna bother customising everything
17:59:02 <elliott> j-invariant: just ping me if you want me to upload it
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18:01:40 <fizzie> Heh, he's added a yet another complicated "stream of variable-sized items" packet field format that needs to be completely decoded in order to be skipped over. GRAA, why can't he just add a length field in the protocol.
18:02:20 <j-invariant> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/emifw.png
18:02:22 <j-invariant> is that normal?
18:02:36 <elliott> j-invariant: press F5
18:02:56 <elliott> j-invariant: did you use the mipmapping link i gave you? the one in the post is wrong
18:03:01 <elliott> i can't tell from the screeny but i'm not sure you have mipmapping
18:03:18 <elliott> fizzie: why do you undef main on win32?
18:03:38 <j-invariant> elliott: I mean the grass http://i.imgur.com/gFNHg.png
18:03:55 <elliott> j-invariant: that's Better Grass :)
18:04:02 <elliott> ah, you do have mipmapping
18:04:07 <elliott> but why do you use such a tiny window to play in?!
18:04:22 <elliott> j-invariant: btw better grass looks nicer with painterly
18:04:23 <elliott> by far
18:04:30 <elliott> since with painterly, normal grass goes down 2/3rds of the way
18:04:51 <j-invariant> okay im configuring paintlerly :)
18:04:57 <fizzie> elliott: Because otherwise SDL.h redefines it to SDL_main, but that causes mingw to go all "there is no main() method in the application, I'll use WinMain as the entry point" even if I statically link against libSDLmain.
18:05:03 <elliott> j-invariant: my configuration is the BESTEST!!!
18:05:14 <elliott> fizzie: Ah, I'll put it in platform.h then, as ugly as that is.
18:05:34 <j-invariant> I would like a crude creeper large pumpkin.
18:06:16 <elliott> j-invariant: that's what i have :D
18:06:29 <elliott> j-invariant: btw you probably do not want biome compliant grass
18:06:34 <elliott> (biome-compliant leaves are fine)
18:06:40 <elliott> because it doesn't work for side-grass, because Notch sucks
18:06:55 <Gregor> Wow, Jeeves and Wooster went downright crazy in the last season.
18:07:30 <elliott> j-invariant: btw I'd do "cp ~/.minecraft/bin/{minecraft.jar,minecraft.good.jar}" now
18:07:36 <elliott> just in case you mess up mcpatcher, happens to the best of us :P
18:07:49 <j-invariant> elliott: oh for goodness sake this customizer is MASSIVE
18:07:57 <elliott> j-invariant: yes it is, want my precustomised pack? :P
18:08:05 <elliott> some of us take our painterly customisation err...quite seriously
18:08:12 <j-invariant> btr
18:08:20 <elliott> btr?
18:08:27 <j-invariant> I have minecraft.jar, minercaft (copy).jar and minecraft.mrm2011-1-16-0
18:08:32 <elliott> haha
18:08:39 <elliott> make minecraft.patched.up.the.wazoo.jar
18:08:40 <elliott> or something
18:08:44 <j-invariant> (copy) is my backup, I think mrm is Mr... backup
18:08:51 <elliott> yeah
18:08:56 <elliott> you want a backup with all the patches though
18:08:58 <elliott> before mcpatcher
18:09:01 <elliott> fizzie: If I turn -DWIN32 into -DPLATFORM=win32, is that okay?
18:09:46 <fizzie> There is no -DWIN32 at the moment.
18:09:50 <fizzie> It's mingw-defined automagically.
18:10:03 <fizzie> But I can do -DPLATFORM=win32 if you want.
18:10:19 <elliott> fizzie: Or even BETTER
18:10:22 <elliott> #ifdef WIN32
18:10:26 <elliott> #define PLATFORM win32
18:10:28 <elliott> #endif
18:10:30 <elliott> BEST IDEA??
18:10:51 <fizzie> Well, why nots, assuming it ends up in all the places that test for PLATFORM.
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18:12:53 <elliott> platform.h:9: error: pasting "PLATFORM" and "." does not give a valid preprocessing token
18:12:56 <elliott> Gah, how are you meant to do that, again?
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18:13:22 <elliott> Or maybe I should just use a conditional, wacky.
18:13:24 <fizzie> Sometimes you need a separate macro, if you want it to expand PLATFORM.
18:13:35 <elliott> #define PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME_(x) x##.h
18:13:35 <elliott> #define PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME_(PLATFORM)
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18:13:35 <elliott> #define QUOTE_(x) #x
18:13:35 <elliott> #define QUOTE(x) QUOTE_(x)
18:13:35 <elliott> #define PLATFORM_HEADER QUOTE(PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME)
18:13:35 <elliott> #include PLATFORM_HEADER
18:13:42 <elliott> fizzie: I actually just want that first macro there to work without erroring :-P
18:13:45 <elliott> ORRRR I could just do it manually.
18:14:33 <elliott> fizzie: Or, wait, I'll just pass -iwin32.h to the compiler.
18:14:35 <elliott> That's the "sanest" thing.
18:15:01 <elliott> Erm, *-include win32.h
18:15:56 <fizzie> I don't see what's so unsane about just a single #if .. #include "win32.h" #elif .. #include "posix.h" #else #error "your platform is bad" #endif chain somewhere. (As opposed to trying to autodefine the header name like that.
18:16:03 <elliott> fizzie: Mind if I ditch useful.make? It's bugging me.
18:16:05 <Gregor> elliott: Jeeves and Wooster managed to go three and half seasons with no transvestites, but being British and all just couldn't make it much further.
18:16:12 <elliott> (Yes, yes, so HYPOCRITICAL.)
18:16:16 <elliott> Gregor: Verily.
18:16:28 <fizzie> You added it, of course you can get rid of it too if you like.
18:16:32 <elliott> Sweet, I'm gonna delete all the files I added. For anarchy!
18:17:03 <j-invariant> elliott: cant' decide between:
18:17:03 <j-invariant> The core of my world is delicious candycane. ◊
18:17:03 <j-invariant> PreviewPreview
18:17:04 <j-invariant> I want to live on the back of a cosmic space turtle.
18:17:19 <elliott> j-invariant: I use boring ol' bedrock, but I'd go for space-turtle.
18:17:26 <elliott> The candycane is rather glaring when you're in a dark mine at bedrock.
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18:18:21 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/c179 -- *so* pretty. (The new packet field format is: read records until id byte == 127; record size depends on three top bits of ID byte, with 0 → 1 byte, 1 → 2 bytes, 2/3 → 4 bytes, 4 → length-prefixed UTF-8 string, 5 → 5 bytes.)
18:18:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, working on mcmap update?
18:18:28 <fizzie> (Yet another place where it can get broken.)
18:18:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, the whole protocol changed fundamentally?
18:19:01 <fizzie> No, he just added yet another field type that doesn't have a fixed length.
18:19:06 <Vorpal> oh
18:19:16 <fizzie> It's used for something mob-related.
18:19:24 <Vorpal> ah
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18:25:40 <elliott> fizzie: What would be your most approved-of renaming of main? (The platforms will handle main() itself.)
18:26:19 <j-invariant> elliott: what's up with all the non-square moons and suns? Weird
18:26:28 <elliott> j-invariant: I use them :P
18:26:34 <elliott> (Plain circular moon, circular sun)
18:27:11 <fizzie> Anything, really; but preferrably something that includes the substring "main". (And no, something incorporating the verb "remain" doesn't quite count.)
18:27:51 <elliott> I'll make it mcmap_main.
18:28:12 <elliott> fizzie: What's this setlocale(LC_ALL, "") nonsense?
18:28:16 <j-invariant> elliott: Finally made my pack
18:28:17 <elliott> Are we a locale-friendly app now?
18:28:17 <fizzie> java.io.IOException: Server returned HTTP response code: 504 for URL: http://www.minecraft.net/game/joinserver.jsp?[...] -- is there some sort of a problem, or is that just me?
18:28:18 <elliott> :p
18:28:21 <elliott> j-invariant: \o/
18:28:21 <myndzi> |
18:28:21 <myndzi> >\
18:28:36 <elliott> j-invariant: Download mcpatcher, tick all except Custom Water and Animated Water, specify pack location
18:28:38 <elliott> Press Patch
18:28:40 <elliott> Start Minecraft
18:28:41 <elliott> Rejoice
18:28:43 <fizzie> elliott: It manages to localize the glib help messages (partially) and something else. I don't remember what I thought when adding it.
18:28:49 <elliott> j-invariant: (Assuming you ticked a water you like in the customiser.)
18:31:02 <j-invariant> why not have custom water?
18:31:11 <j-invariant> what should tile size be?
18:31:15 <elliott> j-invariant: er, wait
18:31:17 <elliott> j-invariant: OK, leave tile size
18:31:19 <elliott> j-invariant: you want to:
18:31:21 <elliott> untick custom lava
18:31:25 <elliott> untick animated water
18:31:27 <elliott> make sure all others are ticked
18:31:35 <elliott> (Animated water actually *disables* Painterly's animated water.)
18:31:37 <elliott> (So you want it UNTICKED.)
18:31:40 <j-invariant> tile size is 16x16
18:31:43 <elliott> yep
18:31:44 <elliott> that's correct
18:31:48 <elliott> click Patch, close the patcher, start minecraft normally
18:31:51 <j-invariant> :(((
18:31:54 <elliott> j-invariant: ?
18:32:05 <j-invariant> Replacing kf.class: java.io.FileNotFoundException: newcode/kf.class
18:32:11 <elliott> what
18:32:15 <elliott> j-invariant: do the paths look right?
18:32:58 <elliott> in the dialogue box
18:32:59 <elliott> that you select
18:33:22 <elliott> fizzie: So are we going to have a fancy GTK launcher someday? :P
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18:34:16 <fizzie> I don't really think so. :p
18:34:29 <j-invariant> I got "Success ...probably" this time, with custom water off
18:34:30 <Vorpal> laggy
18:34:54 <j-invariant> seems to have worked
18:35:07 <elliott> j-invariant: ah
18:35:13 <elliott> j-invariant: you forgot to enable water in painterly customiser!!
18:35:14 <elliott> go fix it
18:35:24 <elliott> Do not include MCPATCHER animation files for water.
18:35:25 <elliott> Include MCPATCHER animation files for light water.
18:35:25 <elliott> Include MCPATCHER animation files for dark water.
18:35:27 <elliott> choose one of the latter two
18:35:28 <elliott> dark is best imo :P
18:35:35 <elliott> btw hover over the pictures to get previews
18:35:59 <j-invariant> I chose dark water
18:36:54 <elliott> j-invariant: are you sure? :/
18:37:02 <elliott> j-invariant: you are on 1.2_01, right?
18:37:04 <elliott> minecraft
18:37:32 <elliott> fizzie: Should I name portable types and functions like socket() and the socket type with mcmap_ prefix or sth?
18:37:40 <elliott> fizzie: typedef int mcmap_socket; and the like.
18:37:43 <elliott> Or platform_socket?
18:37:47 <elliott> Yeah, I'll go for platform_ prefix.
18:38:13 <j-invariant> ITS SO BEAUTIFUL OMFG
18:38:48 <elliott> j-invariant: If you want to hear your hardware scream, set viewing distance to far and rendering to fancy.
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18:43:56 <elliott> fizzie: Is it okay if the win32 console still gets threaded, even though it isn't quite required?
18:44:09 <Sgeo> elliott, how does a language like Slate manage to ... exist so long while going practically nowhere, generating little interest?
18:44:23 <fizzie> Can the thread do anything there? I mean, the currently ifdef'd-out code won't compile on Windows.
18:44:43 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the idea is that there'd be a few console_* functions in platform.h, that both posix.c and win32.c would implement.
18:44:49 <elliott> And posix.c would use readline and win32.c just the usual read() stuff.
18:44:53 <elliott> Or, er, fread, whatever.
18:44:56 <elliott> fgets. whatever.
18:45:05 <elliott> fizzie: So it'd be threaded in all cases.
18:45:18 <fizzie> Hmm'k. Well, why not.
18:45:21 <elliott> Sgeo: "going practically nowhere" is quite insulting to all the people who have been working on it for years. Besides, there was a dip in activity for years, this is a "revival".
18:45:23 <fizzie> One more thread doesn't really matter.
18:45:48 <Sgeo> A revival that seems to consist of one person, as far as I can tell
18:46:13 <elliott> Io is basically a one-man project too.
18:46:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, pushed?
18:46:22 <fizzie> Anyway, I'll push this protocol-update change; it only changes protocol.h (and there only the packet_id and field_type enums) and protocol.c, it should auto-merge without any problems.
18:46:26 <Sgeo> Hmm
18:46:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't believe he's done.
18:46:43 <elliott> Oh, so he is.
18:46:51 <fizzie> I am; I just testeded it a moment ago.
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18:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, right, he said in game he was about to push, then he left the game
18:47:05 <fizzie> There it goes.
18:47:22 <elliott> fizzie: Actually, come to think of it, I can just only have the thread in posix.c.
18:47:42 <fizzie> 2 files changed, 61 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)
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18:49:36 <elliott> fizzie: Is console_readline ever false on POSIX?
18:51:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there? Planning on that joint expedition still?
18:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
18:51:29 <elliott> Hm?
18:51:35 <elliott> What joint expedition?
18:51:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, now seems like a perfect time to do it
18:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, for lapis.
18:51:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, :)
18:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Updating mcmap...
18:51:52 <fizzie> elliott: It can be if there is both atexit + regular-quit cleanup.
18:51:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Filthy traitor!
18:51:56 <Vorpal> wait, what colour is it in mcmap?
18:51:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
18:52:07 <fizzie> Oh, mcmap doesn't have that block colored yet.
18:52:10 <fizzie> So it'll be black.
18:52:15 <Vorpal> ah well I'll add it then I guess.
18:52:33 <fizzie> You can manually add it for now; I'll fix that (and note blocks and whatnot) a bit later.
18:52:53 <Vorpal> 0x15
18:53:10 <fizzie> Non-white cloth blocks will also be black at the moment.
18:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, any plans to make mcmap highlight specific blocks?
18:53:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, aren't they all the same id, but different durability?
18:53:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, with a //command.
18:54:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, right, they might be. The classic cloth block had different IDs.
18:54:19 <elliott> Do pressure plates provide charge downwards?
18:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'll need to get armour.
18:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes.
18:55:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm.
18:55:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Is mcmap working for you, BtW?
18:55:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, about how long do you estimate? I have an early morning tomorrow
18:55:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, however long it takes...
18:55:55 <Vorpal> right
18:56:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about NE approx?
18:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Shouldn't be that long; we just need to branch mine at a specific depth/
18:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, how about (-4000,-4000)?
18:56:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I seem to recall you "not being interested" in lapis?
18:56:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well tell me if there is water to fall in there :P
18:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'm not HUGELY interested. But some will be fun :P
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19:02:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
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19:02:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Landed on a chunk error.
19:02:37 <Vorpal> ah
19:08:07 <elliott> sed 's,\($*\)\.o[ :]*,\1.o $@ : ,g' > $@
19:08:10 <elliott> fizzie: What does that line noise do?
19:09:06 <fizzie> It adds the depfile in the list of targets, so that it also depends on the dependencies.
19:09:12 <Vorpal> fuck minecraft.net being downish
19:09:14 <fizzie> There's that GCC-specific option for it.
19:09:31 <elliott> fizzie: Is there?
19:09:36 <fizzie> It corresponds to "-MT $@"
19:09:39 <ais523> hmm, new entry for "list of unreasonably difficult tasks for a PhD student": discovering exactly what page of a conference proceedings you don't have your paper starts on
19:09:46 <fizzie> Or -MT $(objdir)/$*.d in useful.make terms.
19:09:48 <ais523> in fact, just discovering the name of the conference proceedings can be quite hard
19:09:53 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, I already use -MT $(@:.d=.o) right now.
19:10:09 <elliott> I'll leave your ugley script in.
19:10:24 <fizzie> It's picked from the GNU make manual.
19:10:44 <fizzie> But you could change it to "-MT $(@:.d=.o) -MT $@" if you're using the MT flag in any case.
19:11:03 <fizzie> Are you putting the Windows build in the same Makefile as the "sensible" build?
19:12:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, down?
19:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
19:14:02 <elliott> fizzie: No.
19:14:13 <elliott> fizzie: I'm making Makefile.common, Makefile.win32, Makefile.posix.
19:14:27 <elliott> fizzie: And then probably making Makefile just include Makefile.posix, unless there's a snazzy detect-win32 thing in make.
19:14:28 <elliott> Or mingw.
19:14:32 <elliott> What does mingw's uname output?
19:14:42 <fizzie> I don't know, I just cross-build it.
19:18:03 <Sgeo> elliott, I wish Slate had up-to-date thorough documentation
19:18:27 <Sgeo> Which, at least, is better than Atomo's ... complete-looking, but secretly lacking, documentation
19:19:56 <elliott> fizzie: So win32 actually has no input facilities, right?
19:20:13 <fizzie> There are the console functions.
19:20:23 <fizzie> But currently it doesn't have any, if that's what you meant.
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19:31:30 <ais523> also, it seems that LyX's "integrated version control" is in fact RCS
19:31:36 <ais523> I'm not sure how to react, or how Vorpal will react
19:36:56 <fizzie> ais523: It only uses RCS by default if it doesn't smell some other version control repository in the directory you've saved the file in.
19:37:08 <fizzie> ais523: It does CVS and Subversion if it sees files related to those.
19:37:55 <fizzie> I don't think it does any other systems yet, though.
19:38:30 <j-invariant> elliott: chopping down trees form the comfort of my boat: If only I could get a workbench on it!
19:39:15 <fizzie> Gah, that Minecraft protocol is ad-hoc. The format for packet 0x35 ("place a block") starts as "int, byte, int" (X, Y, Z) coordinates. For packet 0x36 ("play a note block") the first three fields are "int, short, int" (also X, Y, Z). And there are quite many packets that start with "int, int, int" (X, Y, Z).
19:51:01 <Sgeo> Going to start watching DS9 again
19:55:15 <j-invariant> Finally I found some iron (and clay!)
19:58:41 <j-invariant> "we're looking to compile at a rate very close to 100,000 lines of source code per second"
19:58:53 <j-invariant> seriously. What the hell is going on in "industry"?
20:00:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:00:15 <zzo38> Do you like anarchy golf?
20:00:35 <j-invariant> no, it makes me feel stupid. I cna't do any of them
20:01:40 <zzo38> j-invariant: I can give a lot of hints. I know a lot of tricks that can be used. Each programming language usable has its own challenge.
20:03:41 <zzo38> Such as, Objective-C is a strict superset of C, so any solution in C should also be acceptable as a Objective-C code.
20:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover> ineiros, may I please request a chunk revert?
20:04:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott has caused massive damage to the summit of Mt. Hoover.
20:04:13 <elliott> Accidentally!
20:04:20 <elliott> And in an agreement of war, no less.
20:04:24 <fizzie> Drrrrrama!
20:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you either recreate the entire terrain from scratch or you help me get ineiros to give me a revert.
20:05:12 <elliott> He'll revert it anyway.
20:05:17 <Sgeo> What happened?
20:05:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Why, exactly, were you placing that much TNT near the summit?
20:05:31 <j-invariant> LOL
20:05:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We _agreed to war_.
20:05:41 <j-invariant> I guess elliott blew up Mt. Hoover
20:05:43 <elliott> War, as in, war where people die.
20:05:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, please stop acting like this is a joke.
20:05:47 <Sgeo> Also, does more TNT cause a bigger explosion?
20:05:56 <Sgeo> Minecraft: Serious Business
20:06:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I made a comment in jest.
20:06:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A chunk revert takes two seconds, and I'm not acting like this is a joke, and for once Sgeo is right.
20:06:15 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
20:06:17 <elliott> I consulted you on the matter of war for a reason and you agreed.
20:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what? No, you didn't.
20:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you have chat logs on your terminal
20:06:51 <elliott> On IRC.
20:07:15 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, the portability work is almost done.
20:07:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes
20:07:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, want them?
20:07:38 <j-invariant> I need the strongest posible armor
20:07:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, will take a minute or so to sprunge
20:07:44 <j-invariant> i have some iron ore (not much)
20:08:02 <elliott> j-invariant: diamond
20:08:11 <j-invariant> im not sure where to find dioamonad
20:08:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, dumped in a file.
20:08:18 <elliott> fizzie: does -O3 break windows?
20:08:36 <fizzie> Probably not.
20:08:39 <fizzie> Haven't tried, though.
20:08:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have saved them to a file
20:09:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm?
20:11:15 <Vorpal> oh no ping reply from PH. I guess that is it
20:11:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:11:40 <Vorpal> yep
20:16:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> My parents have confiscated my laptop because I'm "addicted" and I'm doing it in favour of homework I don't have.]
20:16:59 <elliott> Heh: # renamed: console.c -> posix.c
20:17:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Permanently? :p
20:17:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: apparently it's "for tonight"/
20:17:48 <elliott> Hate to ask the obvious question but what are you IRCing from :P
20:17:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I have to demonstrate that I'm not addicted by doing something else, or something like that.
20:18:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Family Mac, which is in the study.
20:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Can't be long until they find me on this as well and force me off it.
20:18:41 <elliott> fizzie: Pushed the portability stuff, probably broke Windows builds.
20:18:46 <elliott> Probably broke POSIX builds come to think of it, but whatever.
20:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> They are incapable of grasping that addiction is not the same as being annoyed when you are forced off it in the middle of doing something.
20:19:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As a revolutionary, while opposed to you, I am also naturally opposed to all forms of authority, and so death to parents and etc.! But if you will excuse me, I must go and blow shit up.
20:19:35 -!- Behold has joined.
20:19:40 <elliott> (I, on the other hand, am quite clearly addictd ^)
20:19:42 <elliott> *addicted
20:21:28 <fizzie> That's an interesting "clean" sequence:
20:21:30 <fizzie> $ make clean
20:21:30 <fizzie> mkdir build
20:21:30 <fizzie> rm -f build/mcmap build/posix.o build/cmd.o build/console.o build/main.o build/map.o build/nbt.o build/protocol.o build/world.o build/posix.d build/cmd.d build/console.d build/main.d build/map.d build/nbt.d build/protocol.d build/world.d
20:21:30 <fizzie> rmdir build; true
20:21:37 <nooga> where is my intel manual for compiler writers
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20:22:18 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, it generates all the dependencies.
20:22:25 <elliott> fizzie: useful.make hardcoded around this, but it was rather dumb.
20:22:30 <elliott> fizzie: For instance, "make clean all" broke.
20:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=40327
20:23:11 <elliott> fizzie: Of course, if you're cleaning without building in the first place, you're silly anyway. (You'll want to rm -rf _build and _debug, probably.)
20:23:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "The name is quite stupid", like they say. :p
20:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ineiros: anyway, how about that chunk update?
20:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Er, *revert.
20:23:58 <elliott> fizzie: Would you believe it, it actually works
20:24:04 <elliott> Well, ostensibly.
20:24:28 <fizzie> $ make -f Makefile.win32
20:24:28 <fizzie> In file included from platform.h:5,
20:24:28 <fizzie> from common.h:4,
20:24:28 <fizzie> from world.c:13:
20:24:28 <fizzie> posix.h:6:19: error: netdb.h: No such file or directory
20:24:35 <elliott> fizzie: What.
20:24:36 <fizzie> Preprocessor == compares values, not strings.
20:24:49 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, in-deed. I thought that was the case but forgot.
20:24:52 <fizzie> Both "posix" and "win32" have the value 0 if you don't define them to something.
20:25:00 <elliott> fizzie: I Can Fix That.
20:25:54 <Vorpal> down...
20:26:37 <elliott> fizzie: Come to think of it, I'll just make it -DPLATFORM_POSIX vs. -DPLATFORM_WIN32.
20:27:03 <fizzie> Or you could use the guaranteed-to-be-defined-on-all-win32-builds WIN32. :p
20:27:16 <elliott> But that's less generic! What if you port it to Classic Mac OS?
20:27:27 <fizzie> Then you don't test against it.
20:27:41 <elliott> Wouldn't you rather have to?
20:27:46 <elliott> Oh, I see what you mean.
20:27:49 <elliott> But that's a SPECIAL CASE.
20:27:57 <fizzie> Well, okay.
20:28:08 <elliott> Pushin' a fix.
20:29:46 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.spieleplanet.eu/get/mcmap-gui.png <-- is *your* launcher this ugly?
20:30:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is this launcher of yours?
20:30:22 <fizzie> It's a lot smaller.
20:30:31 <fizzie> Approximately equally ugly, though.
20:30:34 <elliott> Vorpal: It launches nuclear warheads.
20:30:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I added a small launcher dialog in the Win32 build that's shown if you don't include any command-line arguments.
20:30:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
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20:32:15 <elliott> lawl
20:32:44 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:32:58 <fizzie> Pushed a three-line patch to fix the Windows builds.
20:33:00 <fizzie> 2 files changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)
20:33:15 <fizzie> Well, maybe it could be considered a four-line patch in some sense.
20:34:27 <fizzie> The link step needs $(objs) $(LDFLAGS) as opposed to $(LDFLAGS) $(objs), because otherwise it won't pick up the referred-to symbols from the DLL link stub libraries. (It only collects symbols that are used.)
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20:37:16 <olsner> elliott: I like the checkbox for "render the hell dimension"
20:41:23 <fizzie> Also pushed a Perl script that takes a protocol.txt and writes the ugly parts of packet-format structures from that. Got tired of updating three different places whenever the protocol changes.
20:41:40 <fizzie> (Didn't add that as a build step though, since conceivably someone might want to build on Windows without Perl.
20:45:07 <elliott> olsner: heh
20:45:31 <elliott> fizzie: But doesn't that -Wl thing need to come before iojdofgjsodigjhfgsihjfkglhjlfkdh?
20:45:32 <elliott> Before...
20:45:34 <elliott> Yeah, the files?
20:45:38 <elliott> Because you had it like that in the Makefile.
20:45:52 <fizzie> Probably not. I don't really know. At least it builds. :p
20:46:16 <j-invariant> notch talks on http://www.livestream.com/coesquest
20:46:22 <j-invariant> to some guyis playing his game
20:46:31 <elliott> j-invariant: notch is the worst
20:46:37 <elliott> THE WORST
20:47:21 * Sgeo wonders if Phantom_Hoover should destroy the remaining stocks of TNT
20:48:20 <j-invariant> over 3000 people lol
20:49:28 <j-invariant> just because he is there
20:49:58 <coppro> :(
20:50:03 <coppro> GODDAMMIT MINECRAFT
20:50:17 <elliott> j-invariant: PRAISE THE GLORIOUS NOTCH
20:51:49 <elliott> Vorpal: fizzie: "4815162342 lines of code!" That would explain a lot..
20:51:51 <elliott> *lot.
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20:53:32 <elliott> fizzie: Congratulations on your DSL (the .txt)
20:54:02 <elliott> fizzie: You should probably add a rule to update protocol-data.{c,h}.
20:54:05 <elliott> To Makefile.commo.
20:54:08 <elliott> *common.
20:54:41 <fizzie> Yes, probably; I didn't want to make the build actually-depend on Perl, but OTOH it doesn't if those files do exist in the repo.
20:54:52 <Sgeo> "It is possible to interact with the environment while riding a cart, such as shooting a bow at enemies or laying down track in front of the minecart while it is moving."
20:54:54 <Sgeo> Hmm
20:55:04 <Sgeo> That sounds like it could be... useful for long journeys
20:55:05 <elliott> ^cat coppro: i like how much the minecraft talk bothers you
20:55:05 <fungot> coppro: i like how much the minecraft talk bothers you
20:55:12 <elliott> (I know fungot's inner desires.)
20:55:12 <fungot> elliott: i have gotten a test binary file.
20:55:32 <coppro> elliott are you now speaking to me through fungot?
20:55:32 <fungot> coppro: i... just another instance of unix is no longer useable as a snarcstation-2. but these days? so what happened, and hardware manufacturers said the name of the
20:55:42 <Sgeo> "When riding a falling minecart, landing will deal no damage."
20:55:54 <elliott> ^cat Stop accusing elliott of things, I'm a real human being who' sa bot.
20:55:54 <fungot> Stop accusing elliott of things, I'm a real human being who' sa bot.
20:56:00 <Sgeo> That sounds like an easy way to get down from high heights
20:56:01 <elliott> ^cat *who's a. I even make mistakes!
20:56:01 <fungot> *who's a. I even make mistakes!
20:56:04 <Sgeo> coppro, yes, yes he is
20:56:10 <coppro> sigh
20:56:20 <coppro> A+ for creativity
20:56:43 <Sgeo> ^cat Of course, this means Sgeo can impersonate elliott within coppro's mind
20:56:44 <fungot> Of course, this means Sgeo can impersonate elliott within coppro's mind
20:57:01 <coppro> except I can see Sgeo issue the command
20:57:03 <elliott> ^cat dfjghdfgkjljsdfzl;dfkjgophs94gsozf\dzf
20:57:03 <fungot> dfjghdfgkjljsdfzl;dfkjgophs94gsozf\dzf
20:57:08 <Sgeo> ..Oh right
20:57:13 <elliott> ^cat MY BRAIN IS A WALRUS
20:57:13 <fungot> MY BRAIN IS A WALRUS
20:57:20 <elliott> fizzie: I think fungot is having a nervous breakdown.
20:57:20 <fungot> elliott: the other hand, given the poor are terribly poor and the program.
20:58:35 <elliott> Apparently, mipmapping is forcing the volume to 0 or something...
20:59:06 <elliott> "Changing volume when music and sound are both off crashes Minecraft"
20:59:09 <elliott> NOTCH QUALITY ENGINEERING
20:59:41 <j-invariant> How to catch chickens: Use a fishing rod to pull them into a cactus
20:59:55 <elliott> j-invariant: X-D
21:03:25 <nooga> uh
21:04:04 <Sgeo> Is it worth using powered minecarts?
21:04:32 <nooga> English guys: how does a name "cardernet" (for an internet service) sounds to you?
21:05:09 <coppro> nooga: a bit cheesey
21:05:27 <nooga> yeah
21:05:30 <nooga> i thought so
21:05:33 <coppro> j-invariant: approve
21:05:57 <nooga> i'd rather name it cardsnet or something like that
21:06:09 <nooga> because AFAIK carder is something weird
21:06:55 <elliott> paulscode.sound.SoundSystemException: The specified class does not implement interface 'ICodec' in method 'setCodec'
21:06:55 <elliott> at paulscode.sound.SoundSystemConfig.setCodec(SourceFile:584)
21:06:55 <elliott> at sg.d(SourceFile:47)
21:06:55 <elliott> at sg.a(SourceFile:31)
21:06:56 <elliott> at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.a(SourceFile:331)
21:06:58 <elliott> at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.run(SourceFile:643)
21:07:00 <elliott> at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:636)
21:07:02 <elliott> error linking with the LibraryJavaSound plug-in
21:07:04 <elliott> Sgeo: No.
21:07:13 <j-invariant> hahah the water in minecraft is not confluent
21:07:26 <elliott> j-invariant: wat
21:08:47 <j-invariant> the way it flows is dependent on the order in which its path is cleared
21:08:48 <Sgeo> Might Minecart boosters eventually be nerfed?
21:08:51 <elliott> sound is so boooorken for me :(
21:08:52 <elliott> Sgeo: yes
21:08:55 <elliott> j-invariant: indeed
21:08:59 <fizzie> elliott: The current system seems to have bit of a rebuild problem: http://p.zem.fi/fkwv -- based on make -d at http://p.zem.fi/7nwt it's because you depend on the build directory, and that is always newer because any file-change inside there will update its timestamp.
21:09:10 <Sgeo> How much stuff will break?
21:09:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Everything.
21:09:23 <Sgeo> And will powered minecarts then become useful?
21:09:31 <elliott> fizzie: Oh for chrissakes. Change the dependency on $(objdir) to | $(objdir).
21:09:32 <elliott> Sgeo: Ask Notch.
21:10:07 <elliott> fizzie: That will fix it.
21:10:12 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to.
21:11:21 <Sgeo> "You can also ride "them" and they'll move nearly forever if there is no dead end. It also moves slower off track and can move through water.
21:11:21 <Sgeo> "
21:11:22 <Sgeo> Ooh
21:11:33 <j-invariant> The word confluent comes from the behavior of water
21:12:38 <coppro> wait how dum
21:12:49 <coppro> what a dumb way for water to work
21:13:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Eh?
21:13:47 <elliott> Oh, right.
21:13:50 <elliott> The really buggy ones
21:13:52 <elliott> *ones.
21:14:02 <elliott> fizzie: Have you had any audio issues?
21:15:19 <elliott> fizzie: Shall I add the auto-update of the protocol-data files to the build system? It'll only trigger when the files are out of date, obviously.
21:17:24 <fizzie> I haven't played Minecraft with sound more than once or so.
21:17:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I heard the "ouch" but saw nothing that could hurt you
21:17:30 <fizzie> You can. I was going to, but forgot.
21:17:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Fell down the stairs. :p
21:17:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
21:18:15 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart_booster#Double_Booster
21:18:18 <elliott> fizzie: Pushing.
21:18:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what were you going to screenshot?
21:18:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Yeah, that _will_ be fixed. It's a crazy bug.
21:18:46 -!- trinithis has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:18:56 <fizzie> Anyway, here's what I got when I tried to add "show block light levels in surface map for nice night-time look" in mcmap: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png
21:18:59 <fizzie> That's not quite it.
21:19:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
21:19:15 <elliott> fizzie: I WANT TO MAKE AN ALBUM JUST SO I CAN USE THAT AS THE COVER.
21:19:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:19:39 <zzo38> I have made a list of some hints for anarchy golf gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_golf.anagol-tricks
21:19:40 <Sgeo> I think boosters period are a crazy bug
21:19:46 <elliott> Sgeo: But a useful one.
21:19:49 <elliott> fizzie: SRSLY THAT IS AWESOME
21:20:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, found out anything about the corruption bug btw?
21:20:49 <fizzie> Not yet either. I should really take a look at some point.
21:20:58 <Sgeo> Item duplication glitches are useful bugs
21:21:33 <j-invariant> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/moAMH.png
21:21:38 <elliott> I can't stop staring at http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png
21:21:40 <elliott> It's so pretty
21:21:45 <j-invariant> free string every time I spend the night in my house
21:21:55 <elliott> j-invariant: great :)
21:22:08 <j-invariant> works well because I can get fish with it
21:22:08 <elliott> j-invariant: add some logs on fire there, hehehe
21:22:12 <elliott> j-invariant: have you built a portal to the Nether yet?
21:22:19 <j-invariant> elliott: no I don't have any obsidian :(
21:22:27 <j-invariant> I just found clay and iron for the fisrst time today thoug
21:22:29 <elliott> j-invariant: you want buckets of lava and water, to build it in-place
21:22:37 <elliott> that way you don't have to mine it either
21:22:44 <j-invariant> oh yeah I do know where there is some lava
21:22:47 <elliott> j-invariant: If it has taken this long for you to find iron you are doing something very wrong :)
21:22:48 <oklopol> j-invariant: string is useless though
21:22:51 <elliott> To make a bucket you need iron
21:22:55 <j-invariant> oklopol: I can make a fishing rod with it
21:23:07 <elliott> j-invariant: also, wow, you really need to play at a higher resolution :P
21:23:16 <oklopol> you use 5 of it in the whole game
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21:23:44 <elliott> fizzie: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png has PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL in it, I am disgusted.
21:23:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Found ANOTHER computer?
21:24:04 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Quarry_1.png
21:24:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ineiros, I really, *really* need that revert.
21:24:12 * Sgeo wants to make a swimming pool that size
21:24:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The damage is effectively irreparable.
21:25:19 <elliott> How do you do squares in the gimp? :p
21:25:31 <Sgeo> Cobblestone factory + tree farm = plenty of smooth stone
21:25:48 <elliott> Sgeo: Cobblestone factory = useless.
21:25:52 <elliott> It is 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000x faster to mine.
21:26:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, do you have any idea of the rate of production in a cobble factory?
21:26:01 <fizzie> elliott: Second attempt: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights2.png
21:26:17 <j-invariant> that's nice
21:26:17 <elliott> fizzie: That's the cover to the accompanying EP.
21:26:24 <j-invariant> is it correct?
21:26:26 <elliott> fizzie: Can you save the version that generated mcmap-lights.png?
21:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Literally the only place it would be useful would be in the Nether.
21:26:28 <elliott> I really wanna use it :p
21:26:30 <elliott> *it. :p
21:26:34 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, can't be lower than mining, right?
21:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's *far* lower.
21:26:45 <Sgeo> How?
21:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> "a block a second" lower.
21:26:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Because the cobble don't regenerate instantly.
21:26:59 <fizzie> elliott: I already messed it up. :/
21:27:10 <elliott> If the cobble magically reappeared AS SOON as you finished mining (not even a ms delay) it would be as fast.
21:27:17 <elliott> But it takes like a second.
21:27:19 <Gregor> <elliott> fizzie: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png has PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL in it, I am disgusted. // worst - porn -e ver
21:27:21 <Gregor> *- ever
21:27:33 <Sgeo> Mining isn't as safe
21:27:38 <elliott> Gregor: I'm trying to highlight the pornographic material now :P
21:27:50 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes... it is.
21:27:57 <elliott> If you do a corridor, it's completely safe and you get iron and coal too.
21:28:29 <Sgeo> It's not as ecological
21:28:30 <Sgeo> >.>
21:28:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do it chunk-wise then
21:28:39 <Sgeo> You'll run out eventually
21:28:48 <Sgeo> And have to walk a distance to find more
21:28:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I made some cool stuff such as a note based warning system when someone enters my place
21:29:12 <Sgeo> Vorpal, note?
21:29:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, do what chunk-wise?
21:29:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the revert
21:29:22 <elliott> Sgeo: "Run out"? Not underground.
21:29:30 <elliott> And the world is fucking infinite, there is nothing to conserve.
21:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you mean list the chunks necessary?
21:29:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah.
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21:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, how?
21:29:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well the worldedit plugin for bukkit could do it
21:29:56 <Sgeo> Sure, the world is infinite, but if you run out in a fixed area, you have to leave that area
21:30:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, for a very short time while you get cobble.
21:30:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wait, dump with mcmap. then figure out the file names
21:30:23 <elliott> HOW DO YOU DRAW A SQUARE WITH THE GIMP
21:30:31 <elliott> Sgeo: Wrong.
21:30:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I assume they would be the same for mcmap and for the server
21:30:35 <elliott> Sgeo: The underground extends forever.
21:30:37 <Vorpal> relative the world dir
21:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> You'll *already* have more cobble than you need from mining.
21:31:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I doubt it.
21:31:15 <fizzie> elliott: Usually I just select a rectangle, then select->border, then fill that.
21:31:15 <Phantom_Hoover> mcmap has absolutely no idea what the server calls the chunks.
21:31:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> HOW DO YOU DRAW A SQUARE WITH THE GIMP <-- make a rectangle selection, shift or ctrl or something to ensure all sides equally long
21:31:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The file names are just base36-encoded integers of the chunk position.
21:31:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, isn't it determnistic from the coords?
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, oh?
21:33:27 <elliott> fizzie: Gregor: PROOF OF EVIL PORNOGRAPHY: http://i.imgur.com/c37jR.png
21:34:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. The path for chunk at (X,Z) is "%s/%s/c.%s.%s.dat", base36(X&63), base36(Z&63), base36(X), base36(Z).
21:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ...what.
21:34:43 <elliott> If you need me to colour it according to how an EVIL PORNOGRAPHIST would, I can do that too, but I figured I'd rely on your OWN EYES.
21:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, is it Cthulhu's secret porn stash?
21:35:23 <elliott> Yes.
21:35:35 <Gregor> You ... must have an extremely dirty mind to see anything in that :P
21:35:38 <fizzie> (With a base36 digit set of "0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz".)
21:36:50 <elliott> Gregor: Obviously the woman on the right is screaming in horror at what a horrible picture she is in, while wearing a necklace with a Christian cross on it, and apparently with no neck separating her face and breasts. IT'S OBVIOUS!
21:37:01 <elliott> YOU'RE the pervert!
21:37:05 <elliott> Maybe YOU'RE Cthulhu.
21:37:35 <Gregor> And ... a parrot on her shoulder?
21:37:39 <Sgeo> Is smelting with lava ever worth it?
21:38:18 <elliott> Gregor: That's clearly a tentacle.
21:38:21 <elliott> Sgeo: No.
21:38:26 <Gregor> elliott: Oh dear.
21:38:38 <elliott> Gregor: SEE?
21:39:08 <elliott> j-invariant: Here's incentive to play at a higher resolution: http://ompldr.org/vNzBuNg
21:41:14 <Sgeo> elliott, does 2 TNT next to eachother make more of an explosion than 1?
21:41:22 <elliott> Yes. Obviously.
21:41:46 <Sgeo> Can that be used to explode past obsidian, or is it just size of explosion?
21:42:04 <elliott> You would need a LOT of TNT to explode obsidian.
21:42:20 <Sgeo> But it's theoretically doable?
21:42:41 <Sgeo> How much TNT would you need to explode past water?
21:42:41 <elliott> It'd probably crash the game well before you ever got past TNT.
21:42:43 <j-invariant> elliott: I think that's bigger than my maximum res :S
21:42:44 <elliott> *past obsidian.
21:42:46 <elliott> Sgeo: Infinite.
21:42:51 <elliott> j-invariant: just press F11 :P
21:42:58 <j-invariant> elliott: BTW, turns out my security system isn't completely watertight http://i.imgur.com/dUR5V.png
21:42:59 <Sgeo> elliott, water is literally unbreakable?
21:43:01 <elliott> might take pressing it thrice, if it doesn't get rid of your top/bottom panels
21:43:06 <elliott> Sgeo: yes.
21:43:08 <elliott> I think.
21:43:23 <elliott> j-invariant: yikes
21:43:29 <elliott> j-invariant: did it come down?
21:43:35 <fizzie> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion#Block_Resistance has smaller numbers for water than obsidian, but I really don't know how those are calculated.
21:43:36 <Sgeo> According to http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion#Block_Resistance, water has a lower resistance than obsidian
21:43:38 <j-invariant> haha it can't come down but I can't go up either
21:43:41 <Sgeo> Oh
21:43:46 <Sgeo> n/m the oh
21:43:49 <fizzie> Sgeo: Underwater explosions are a different thing, though.
21:44:01 <Sgeo> I wasnt asking about underwater explosions
21:44:14 <Sgeo> I wanted to know how well a wall of stationary water would hold up
21:44:30 <elliott> ah.
21:46:26 <Sgeo> What... was the point of Notch programming in the spring duplication?
21:47:45 <Gregor> elliott: Do people actually eat weetabix?
21:47:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Spring duplication?
21:47:53 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. It's nice.
21:47:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the way water behaves
21:48:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, there's a certain maximum damage a single TNT block can deal.
21:48:33 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, with more TNT, can more damage be delt?
21:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I don't think so.
21:49:06 <Vorpal> isn't it additive if exploding exactly at the same time
21:49:07 <Sgeo> So elliott's wrong then. Ok
21:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The explosion algorithm is insane, and I think it's the reason TNT is woefully resource-heavy.
21:49:14 <Vorpal> I thought that was how TNT cannons worked
21:49:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they have been rewritten in 1.2
21:49:22 <Gregor> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Weetabix.jpg <-- this looks like something you'd be served as an indentured slave to the military.
21:50:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Optimine stops TNT lagging things.
21:50:27 <elliott> So not really.
21:50:37 <elliott> Gregor: That picture is awful.
21:50:37 <Sgeo> Optimine?
21:50:42 <elliott> Gregor: Also what, you soak them in milk.
21:50:52 <elliott> Gregor: They... really don't look like that :P
21:51:02 <elliott> Gregor: With some sugar and soaked in milk it's actually really tasty.
21:51:16 <elliott> Gregor: It isn't hard or anything, when milk'd.
21:51:17 <Gregor> My hatred for milk makes that even worse :P
21:51:26 <elliott> Gregor: Oh... well you're just weird then.
21:51:32 <elliott> Srsly, it's nice :P
21:51:51 <fizzie> Minepedia explains the block-destroying process reasonably well, but not the interaction of multiple TNT blocks, except by noting that other TNT blocks may ignite from the explosion; it doesn't mention at which point it resets the damage-to-blocks counters.
21:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, use <liquid of your choice> then.
21:52:05 <Gregor> Coca-Cola?
21:52:09 <elliott> Yes.
21:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, that article is on block interactions, isn't it?
21:52:12 <elliott> Weetabix in coca-cola.
21:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Not entities, which is what lit TNT is.
21:52:34 <Sgeo> "The only dangers that a quarry presents are death from falling into the pit, death from hitting a magma flow, or by falling into a cavern due to recklessness and getting killed by a mob underground."
21:52:42 <Sgeo> LIES! You could also die of boredom
21:53:50 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/index.php?title=Template:Blocks&diff=40037&oldid=39916 How annoying.
21:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, or from spiders getting into the pit.
21:54:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well yes, though it has an "interactions with entities" paragraph too, but that's just about how creatures and players get damage.
21:54:17 <Gregor> elliott: If you dipped it in chocolate, I could see it being food.
21:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. the dangers presented by mining plus one more.
21:54:35 <elliott> Gregor: Sure :-P
21:55:06 <fizzie> There is a very confusing sentence about high-resistance blocks: "The minimum block resistance required to absorb maximum blast force of TNT explosion (with at least attenuation of 2 steps) is 77.67, 63.5 of creeper explosion, 20.17 of fireball explosion. So water, stationary lava, obsidian, and bedrock are always indestructible, and furnaces and less resistant blocks can be destroyed by fireballs."
21:55:13 <fizzie> I don't really know what they mean by that.
21:55:48 <fizzie> I guess "with at least attenuation of 2 steps" means that it takes 2 steps to get out of the TNT block itself.
21:57:40 <Sgeo> I'm just thinking that bomb shelters made out of water are more economical than those made of obsidian
21:57:53 <elliott> ais523: ping
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21:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, an interesting result of TNT resistance is that the Cube would be extremely resistant to single-floor TNT detonations.
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22:00:05 <Sgeo> ..? o.O?
22:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it would destroy the floor and ceiling of the level it was on (near the blast zone, at least).
22:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> But the damage would stop there.
22:02:01 <Sgeo> What's the Cube made of? Also I don't know what it is, but I guess vertically it alternates block air block air?
22:02:55 <fizzie> It has lava between the floors for lighting.
22:03:23 <oklopol> can the cube fly
22:04:09 <elliott> no
22:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's glass with lava sandwiched between things like fizzie said.
22:04:31 <Gregor> Mmmm, lava sandwiches.
22:04:31 <Sgeo> lighting?
22:04:39 <Sgeo> But there's no air to move around in?
22:04:51 <Sgeo> Wait
22:05:09 <Sgeo> glass lava glass air air repeat?
22:05:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
22:05:19 <Sgeo> Awesome
22:05:59 <Sgeo> I'd like to see pictures
22:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, then buy MC and get to doing drudge work on it.
22:06:50 <Phantom_Hoover> The Cube site is going to be a deathtrap now that health is on...
22:06:52 <Sgeo> You can't just show me a screenshot?
22:07:11 <Sgeo> Wait, it doesn't exist yet?
22:07:17 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
22:07:44 <Sgeo> I assume there is easy access to a lava lake near the site?
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22:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, there is not.
22:08:32 <Phantom_Hoover> We used to have renewable lava, but server-side inventory broke it.
22:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Now we sit and wait for Bukkit to be released and then bug ineiros for a lava kit and a chunk revert on Mt. Hoover.
22:09:12 <Sgeo> Or just abandon the site
22:09:16 <Sgeo> Find a lava lake
22:09:29 <Sgeo> Or minecart system between current site and lava lake
22:09:31 <elliott> fizzie: mcmap is a lot shorter than I thought:
22:09:35 <elliott> Totals grouped by language (dominant language first):
22:09:36 <elliott> ansic: 2609 (89.20%)
22:09:36 <elliott> sh: 242 (8.27%)
22:09:36 <elliott> perl: 74 (2.53%)
22:09:36 <elliott> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 2,925
22:09:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Abandon the site that's had so much work done on it? I think not.
22:09:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Besides, one lava lake is NOT enough.
22:09:50 <elliott> Sgeo: We need 16 thousand lava blocks per floor.
22:10:05 <Sgeo> Minecart system it is
22:10:37 <Sgeo> Also, 4000x4000? Why?
22:10:39 <Sgeo> Wait
22:10:50 <Sgeo> 400x400
22:11:07 <Sgeo> How much does a single lake hold?
22:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it depends on the lake.
22:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "Not enough" is invariably going to be the answer, though.
22:11:41 <Sgeo> Well, can you estimate how many lakes you need per floor?
22:11:56 <elliott> Sgeo: 400x400?
22:12:01 <elliott> It's 128x128.
22:12:32 <elliott> 126x126 (accounting for the edge) = 15,876.
22:12:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Far, far too many. Lakes are incredibly rare.
22:12:42 <elliott> And small.
22:12:43 <elliott> Well.
22:12:44 <elliott> Not so rare.
22:12:49 <elliott> But we'd have to basically go down to bedrock EVERYWHERE.
22:13:27 <Sgeo> Wait for update in which portals work in SMP?
22:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, AKA never.
22:14:15 <elliott> Sgeo: That's not going to happen.
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22:19:59 <Sgeo> How far away can a ditch be before it doesn't influence where water flows?
22:25:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Sgeo: That's not going to happen. <-- oh?
22:25:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo, check wiki? Page on fluids iirc
22:25:52 <elliott> Portals are going to go to another server, apparently, but definitely never the Nether.
22:25:53 <Vorpal> I forgot exact count
22:26:05 <Vorpal> elliott, the point was that the other server could hold nether.
22:26:10 <Vorpal> elliott, so one admin would run two servers
22:26:22 <Vorpal> elliott, and let portals work between them
22:26:28 <elliott> Vorpal: That requires running two servers.
22:26:33 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
22:26:35 <elliott> Which is impractical.
22:26:36 <elliott> For most people.
22:26:38 <Vorpal> yep
22:26:52 <Vorpal> elliott, reddit minecraft server could probably manage that
22:27:00 <Vorpal> doubt they would want to
22:27:07 <elliott> They already run TWO servers :P
22:27:10 <Vorpal> elliott, oh?
22:27:16 <Vorpal> elliott, creative/survival?
22:27:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and what happened to that server after hmod was gone (didn't they use hmod?)
22:29:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I think some of the "big" servers are using their own hMod development builds.
22:29:13 <elliott> Also, yes, creatie/survival.
22:29:17 <elliott> *creative/
22:29:24 <elliott> Hmm.
22:29:26 <elliott> http://nerd.nu/
22:29:31 <elliott> Or they're just downgraded.
22:29:35 <elliott> And also have an additional beta server.
22:29:40 <elliott> What is that texture pack I wonder.
22:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, looks HD
22:30:17 <elliott> It looks quite nice, like Painterly HD.
22:30:51 <Vorpal> elliott, boring: http://redditpublic.com/wiki/Rules#Creative
22:30:59 <Vorpal> okay a few make sense
22:31:01 <Vorpal> but a lot does not
22:31:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Looks like the creative server is running Bukkit.
22:31:08 <elliott> Some sekrit build, presumably.
22:31:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Redstone ore?????
22:31:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea
22:31:20 <elliott> Vorpal: I can understand water and shit, even if it is stupid.
22:31:23 <elliott> But REDSTONE ORE???
22:31:29 <elliott> FISHING ROD?
22:35:11 <Sgeo> Flowing lava is banned in Survival, stationary lava isn't/
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22:44:35 <Gregor> And now, classic poetry ala moron ala Gregor:
22:44:36 <Gregor> The bird flew.
22:44:37 <Gregor> Why cant they stop,
22:44:37 <Gregor> the bird flew.
22:44:37 <Gregor> If they hav a cewre for canser,
22:44:38 <Gregor> they should be able to stop a simple,
22:44:40 <Gregor> flew.
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22:45:07 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:58:45 <elliott> fizzie: Should .d files go in build/ even for debug builds, since they're common to both?
23:00:24 <olsner> the dependencies will depend on the macros that are defined though, so that's not guaranteed to be safe :)
23:01:15 <olsner> well... it'll be "safe" but not necessarily correct
23:01:47 <elliott> olsner: oh, you are right, it'll have $platform.{c,h} deps
23:01:54 <elliott> so we can't really do that without forcing both in or whatever
23:01:56 <elliott> meh
23:02:31 <elliott> olsner: there needs to be a build system that considers make variables (including cflags) as dependencies :)
23:02:34 <elliott> and, uh, oh so much more
23:02:34 <elliott> oh well
23:02:35 <elliott> ghc --make
23:02:37 <elliott> problem solved
23:02:48 <olsner> right :)
23:05:04 <elliott> olsner: actually such dependency tracking should probably go in the OS ...
23:05:13 <elliott> strace can work for a lot of things, fabricate uses that, but it's imperfect
23:05:32 <elliott> olsner: again a case of forcing things to go at a higher level of abstraction allowing greater system integration :P
23:08:29 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:26:52 -!- Gregor has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX, FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company would like to deny the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Having sampled a wide var.
23:26:58 <Gregor> D'awwwww
23:27:47 -!- Gregor has set topic: WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company denies the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Having sampled a wide variety of cardboard, the vast majority are not any m.
23:28:19 -!- Gregor has set topic: WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company denies the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Our fine natural additives completely eliminate cardboard flavor..
23:28:36 <elliott> "Weetabix tastes like cardboard" is possibly the first thing Americans ever said, so shut your face.
23:28:47 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHER | FUCKING | WEETABIX | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:29:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: ELLIOTT'S MOTHER IS | FUCKING | WEETABIX | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:30:12 -!- Weetabix has joined.
23:30:22 <Weetabix> elliott, I AM YOUR FATHER
23:30:40 -!- elliott has set topic: Beet a wix | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:30:43 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
23:30:57 <cheater00> every time i read weetabix i think of Mr. Bix from the redmeat comic book
23:31:16 -!- Gregor has set topic: Beet a wix | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage. More at 11..
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23:31:53 <elliott> I'll beet YOUR wixed parentage.
23:35:17 <Mathnerd314> I tried a weetabix once... I threw it up.
23:36:21 <Mathnerd314> maybe because it was 3 months old
23:39:11 <Sgeo> ....did I have a dream about using Linux Mint?
23:39:12 * Sgeo WTFs
23:44:45 <j-invariant> what should I do next?
23:44:48 <j-invariant> I have a coulple hours
23:49:25 <j-invariant> minecraft
23:50:35 <elliott> :t forM
23:50:36 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m [b]
23:50:36 <elliott> j-invariant: yep!
23:50:53 <elliott> :t mapM
23:50:54 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
23:50:57 <elliott> huh
23:51:22 <Sgeo> So, not 3 or 4 lakes per floor, then?
23:51:30 <Sgeo> I think that would have been survivable
23:52:28 <j-invariant> elliott: I can't pick up lava in my bucket :/
23:52:33 <j-invariant> maybe because it's a waterfall
23:52:39 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah you have to get a source block
23:52:47 <elliott> Sgeo: what?
23:52:55 <Sgeo> For the cube
23:54:26 <j-invariant> do I need something special to mine gold/redstone?
23:54:43 <Ilari> Or because it had so many suspicious chemicals in it?
23:57:39 <elliott> Ilari: ...?
23:58:03 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_(Ore)
23:58:05 <elliott> j-invariant: iron or diamond pickaxe
23:58:15 <elliott> j-invariant: same for gold
23:59:36 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I could make a web framework that's horrific as possible, to ensure that my prediction about Haskell comes true, while still not writing, you know, a *web framework*, because i'd feel awful
23:59:48 <elliott> maybe if i make it out of category theory!
23:59:54 <j-invariant> haha
23:59:59 <elliott> yes, best idea ever
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