< 1295568020 0 :Phantom__Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I haven't made pen projectiles myself, though. < 1295568028 0 :Phantom__Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JesuschristIneedtosleep < 1295568064 0 :Phantom__Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1295568177 0 :Behold!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1295568199 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1295568295 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1295568335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ClearBF < 1295568340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This project was a scholar project at ENSIAS - Morocco to build a compiler in C/Flex. The team is supervised by Mr. Karim Baîna and Mrs. Mounia ABIK. Members of the team are: [...] < 1295568343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY GOD WHY < 1295568350 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1295568352 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://clearbf.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/clearbf-project-introduced-at-esolang/ < 1295568356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ClearBF Project introduced at Esolang ! < 1295568356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By Yasser < 1295568356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have just announced the ClearBF Project in the Esolang official website. In fact, we’ve added a new page in the wiki to present our project. < 1295568363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such an achievement! < 1295568388 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELCOME TO THE FUTURE < 1295568751 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sounds like the sort of thing I used to support < 1295568827 0 :cheater00!~cheater@g228063245.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1295569000 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1295569200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What kind of thing? < 1295569211 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy compilation to BF < 1295569212 0 :Wamanuz3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1295569213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Make BF 'nice'?" < 1295569229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C->BF is interesting, Scheme->BF would be, anything else, naw :P < 1295569372 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295569373 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a specific language with that goal in mind < 1295569402 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In connection with a brainfuck CPU iirc < 1295569436 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcomp.html < 1295569440 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1295569444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also PEBBLE < 1295569536 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295569919 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :icefire < 1295570338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :icefire: hi comexico < 1295570639 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1295570706 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295570769 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1295570801 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1295570888 0 :icefire!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1295571075 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should learn Lisp Flavored Erlang < 1295571152 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffffffffffffffffffff < 1295571294 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I should just learn Erlang < 1295571304 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooc < 1295571320 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I keep from being bored while looking at ooc? < 1295571367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better yet: Show me in what order I should read the guide < 1295571388 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: can you just < 1295571389 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1295571390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurt Sgeo < 1295571393 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make him feel the pain i feel < 1295571415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, surely you must have learned about all these languages somehow < 1295571427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, reddit throws me at them. < 1295571438 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm < 1295571440 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atomo for instance i looked at the front page once and decided it was shit. < 1295571537 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1295571537 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit < 1295571541 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga? < 1295571561 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atomo < 1295571612 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it? < 1295571640 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1295571761 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is shit < 1295571765 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just looked at it < 1295571794 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.49.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1295572150 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1295572521 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/misc/elpp.html < 1295572524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So what happened to WIKI! < 1295572534 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exclamation marks in a project name, a sure sign of insanity. < 1295572545 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... you mean Giki? < 1295572588 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, read the page. < 1295572600 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilation to BF is completely useless < 1295572600 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I turned "Wiki!" into Giki, maintained it for a few years, then it was superceded by Hackiki. < 1295572635 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since compiling BF to make programs run faster is pretty non trivial < 1295572683 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should think about an array of primitive, super-fast hardware bf processors in FPGA < 1295572716 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the compilers targeting brainfuck would gain some purpose < 1295572767 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, sleep < 1295573025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"brb, sleep" :D < 1295573051 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What language is Hackiki written in? < 1295573068 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: A mix :P < 1295573075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More specifically :P < 1295573084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What little there is that is properly Hackiki is in PHP. The wiki software you actually see is Python. < 1295573097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: PHP communicating with a chroot? < 1295573101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh JOY < 1295573102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1295573110 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP does no communicating with a chroot. < 1295573114 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP knows only plash. < 1295573119 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plash does all the chrooting and shtuff. < 1295573132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: PHP communicating with plash... nope, I'm still vomiting :P < 1295573149 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exec("pola-run", "shtuff") OH NOSE < 1295573150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I swear plash is overkill >_> < 1295573162 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, but it's good fun 8-D < 1295573164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly due to the fact that, despite its huge amount of code, it's still primarily libc-only :P < 1295573196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is like writing the cleverest, optimising Brainfuck interpreter ever... in sed, making it one of the slowest out there. < 1295573200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*most optimising < 1295573279 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Also the Debian-specificity is lame, even if you're a Debian fan :P < 1295573294 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because "only works on Debian" = "YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO DEAL WITH DEBIAN STUFF") < 1295573294 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that is kinda lame *shrugs* < 1295573316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See botte has a Linux-portable layer for sandb... < 1295573335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In all srsness though, overriding syscalls isn't hard, see: anarchy golf, which has very good sandboxing :P) < 1295573397 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to write something myself, and plash is trivially simple to use. There are other things that have their own system hacked in, but nothing so easily usable as plash that I've seen. < 1295573432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, certainly, it's not something you can fix without a project, I'm just saying that thankfully a project isn't too much work :P < 1295573460 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pur-logicsolutions.com/.../White_Paper_7_Shortcuts_To_Lose_Your_Data_And_Probably_Your_Job_1_.pdf --> < 1295573477 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK, by "replacing syscalls" I didn't actually mean that. < 1295573486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant overriding syscall(). < 1295573505 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget how to handle statically-linked stuff :P < 1295573520 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do what plash does: Stick it in a chroot. < 1295573540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, but if you're happy relying on a chroot you can just use a chroot... < 1295573565 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The chroot is just what it uses to set the lower-bound, I would NOT be happy with a chroot. < 1295573588 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But you can reduce it to being just-a-chroot by calling syscalls directly or statically linking. < 1295573602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly a rather empty one, but that's lame; you should be able to use a stock libc imo < 1295573613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because plenty of stuff doesn't use libc :P < 1295573618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so not plenty of stuff, but... < 1295573625 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Fine. Write the system that provides what I need doing that, and I'll use it. < 1295573635 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, doesn't exist? Actually a bitch to write? Well then I'll continue using plash. < 1295573638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm not criticising your choice, I'm thinking out aloud... < 1295573664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just sayin' that "I would NOT be happy with a chroot" is silly, because plash is trivially reducable to a chroot :P < 1295573667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reducible < 1295573685 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's reducible by attempting to be malicious. < 1295573695 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99.99999999% of programs will not see the empty chroot. < 1295573729 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want my Pandora D-8 < 1295573742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You mean benign programs aren't a security risk, but malicious programs are? < 1295573744 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOW < 1295573759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot think of a response :P < 1295573771 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, malicious programs can't do shit, but benign programs are happy. < 1295573819 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1295573825 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see what you're saying, I'm providing no greater protection than running the program in an empty chroot as a random user. < 1295573826 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well duh. < 1295573832 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all convenience beyond that. < 1295573835 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right :P < 1295573865 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But there are programs that don't use libc... and programs you might want to link statically with another libc... etc.; OK, so they're rare, but plash is big enough that it should be platonically perfect :-P < 1295573868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1295573874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could do it easily with a kernel module. < 1295573877 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders Erlang web frameworks
< 1295573887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although writing to the syscall table is probably Unsupported I imagine it works.) < 1295573894 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Doing it by a kernel module would be frikkin' awesome. < 1295573898 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1295573908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, I am really tempted to do that now... < 1295573921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The practice of replacing syscall table entries is frowned upon by < 1295573921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linus and the other kernel maintainers -- so much so that the < 1295573921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys_call_table symbol is no longer exported. This explains why your < 1295573921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :module can't find it. If you care to know more details, use google to < 1295573921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find the (many and extensive) discussions about, for and against the < 1295573922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decision. < 1295573935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Woot, so it _is_ possible, just so frowned upon that I get to do fun hackery to manage to do it :-D < 1295573945 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1295573946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[1. Modify the kernel source to directly include your own system call < 1295573947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code. < 1295573947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. Modify the kernel source to export the sys_call_table symbol. (Of < 1295573947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :course, your modification won't ever make it into the official kernel < 1295573947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :source tree but if you're just trying to learn...) < 1295573947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. Figure out how to dynamically locate the sys call table from your < 1295573949 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loadable module. (This is ugly and I don't recommend it, but it < 1295573951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly seems feasible. Hint: where in kernel memory could you find a < 1295573953 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :block of 230+ consecutive words, each of which contains a valid kernel < 1295573955 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtual address?)]] < 1295573960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Since when has the Linux kernel policy been to stop people from shooting themselves in the foot??? < 1295573964 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By making it a pain? < 1295573973 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1295573978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh dear god: < 1295573980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I am trying to develope recycle bin like thing in Linux. < 1295573981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that i need to override unlink sys call!. < 1295573981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways,It is working now!! < 1295573981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :David Schwartz wrote: < 1295573981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Anything that can be done by intercepting a system call can be done < 1295573981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> another way. What are you trying to do? < 1295573981 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: data constructor `Anything'Not in scope: `that'Not in scope: ... < 1295573982 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `do' < 1295573983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> < 1295573985 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> DS]] < 1295573986 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `]' < 1295573987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WORST REASON TO OVERRIDE SYSCALLS EVER < 1295573994 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_EVER_ < 1295573999 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1295574036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hmm, couldn't you get most of the way by using FUSE, actually? < 1295574040 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to see if SDL_mixer 1.2.11 does seamless looping of .ogg properly ... < 1295574049 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Network access can be restricted in other ways, inside a chroot not much else matters but the fs... < 1295574054 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least that's what I'm thinking. < 1295574064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Plash doesn't handle networking. < 1295574072 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Actually FUSE does sound like a nice solution. < 1295574078 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it doesn't. < 1295574093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, I think FUSE would get you like 75% of what overriding syscalls would, without all the fuss. < 1295574104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's basically equivalent to overriding all filesystem syscalls... < 1295574107 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much more flexible too :P < 1295574135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the only syscalls are pretty much random local shit + filesystem + network + root-only shit that the unprivileged user can't use anyway :P < 1295574148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly network would be nice to control... < 1295574165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's not much control you could do anyway beyond blanket policies. < 1295574172 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no netfuse :P < 1295574174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yet!) < 1295574181 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Err, how's that related? < 1295574184 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean controlling the network syscalls. < 1295574192 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not syscalls. < 1295574193 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you know. < 1295574221 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, a user-controllable tuntap (netfuse) + a net version of chroot = tada :P < 1295574251 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES YES YES SEAMLESS LOOPING < 1295574252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hmm, I am confused. You mean create a virtual network device? < 1295574268 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In userspace < 1295574290 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Can't you? < 1295574299 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just make the tuntap a named pipe or a FIFO or whatever the kids are calling it this day. < 1295574301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*these days. < 1295574308 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even mount /dev as FUSE. < 1295574309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I didn't quite think that one through :P < 1295574312 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And have it control your tuntap. < 1295574326 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you can't lock a process to a particular network device (AFAIK?) < 1295574345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Can't you "hide" eth0 somehow? < 1295574347 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, of course. < 1295574354 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You know how you block network access in HackEgo? < 1295574357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just do it the same: firewall. < 1295574368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And you run the tuntap from /outside/. < 1295574393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So just use that instead of my HTTP proxy. < 1295574394 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough *shrugs* < 1295574417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Plenty of legit non-HTTP connections to make :P < 1295574431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hmm, what would the FUSE fs do, anyway, apart from protect certain files? < 1295574458 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Plash is essentially a unionfs, which is nice since I can have a hackiki fs checked out to always be at /hackiki < 1295574481 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A unionfs with its own security system of course) < 1295574494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Sure, it's just that I've just forgotten what plash actually protects again :P < 1295574497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help me out here, brainfart... < 1295574529 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w.r.t. the filesystem, it's just about writability. < 1295574538 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rest comes from chroot+random-user. < 1295574585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Can't you just do that by setting the owner? < 1295574607 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah ... but that's global ... < 1295574635 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Eh? What local permissions do you have in hackego/hackiki? < 1295574653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP The Big Picture. < 1295574687 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty minor actually :P < 1295574701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Example? I'm really having trouble thinking here :P < 1295574712 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just read on /usr and friends, r/w to /hackiki which is really /tmp/ and read/write to /tmp which is really /tmp/ < 1295574747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So basically, it's unix permissions + mapping two directories to process-specific ones :P < 1295574755 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.themonkeysyouordered.com/ OH MY GOD THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER. < 1295574759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New Yorker cartoons with literal captions. < 1295574764 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.kottke.org/plus/misc/images/literal-new-yorker.jpg < 1295574787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I used plash because it's easy, not because I needed all of it :P < 1295574806 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Sure, sure, I just had this LAPSE OF JUDGEMENT where I considered THROWING IT ALL OUT :P < 1295574820 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Note that although plash didn't invent empty chroots and random users, it sure makes them easy to use :P < 1295574844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Except that you don't NEED an empty chroot :P < 1295574845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just read on /usr and friends, r/w to /hackiki which is really /tmp/ and read/write to /tmp which is really /tmp/ < 1295574856 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The remapping is the only thing that doesn't fit into straight unix permissions there.. < 1295574858 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there. < 1295574879 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: I used plash because it's easy, not because I needed all of it :P < 1295574896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Sure, sure, I realise that, you think I'm being antagonistic or questioning your approach or something < 1295574979 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in no way stopping you from writing the simpler alternative :P < 1295575041 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Watching really bad TV shows on Hulu: So awesome. < 1295575157 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1295575380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1295575614 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Erlang may make it too easy to write my own impure functions < 1295576656 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1295576884 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, SDL_mixer is actually pretty awesome. < 1295576890 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I was convinced that it was really difficult to use. < 1295576898 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I just went from no music to perfect seamless looping in no time flat. < 1295577591 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1295578292 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1295578452 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1295579040 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1295579500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1295580140 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-193.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1295580274 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1295581664 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1295583443 0 :benuphoenix!~benuphoen@beowulf.benuphoenix.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295583516 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question: out of boredom, i decided to moniter the logs of my linode server. someone is trying to connect to it. what do i do? < 1295583585 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1295584983 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benuphoenix: hunt them down and **** with them until they stop < 1295587122 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1295587151 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.49.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1295588104 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1295589193 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1295589258 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295591860 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1295596799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1295596800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1295597949 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1295597956 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1295599404 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently IANA is delaying it to create a media event... < 1295600223 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, both main estimates are "today" now... < 1295600306 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1295600633 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295600843 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1295600919 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And APNIC is sitting at 1.67 /8s. < 1295601066 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1295601711 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The new figures aren't out yet. < 1295601829 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think those figures appear in about 6 hours... < 1295603081 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ilua < 1295603383 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1295603417 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1295606930 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1295607954 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1295609229 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g230230070.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1295611241 0 :Tritonio!Tritonio@afrodite.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1295611243 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1295611667 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181135138.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1295611770 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1295612850 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, I think the figures update at about 15:15Z or so... < 1295613023 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then one will see if today APNIC allocated something like a /14 or something like a /9... < 1295613277 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Warning: This document contains examples of bad code. < 1295613277 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1295613530 0 :Tritonio!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1295613533 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1295613785 0 :Tritonio!~TrT@afrodite.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1295614745 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1295614768 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181136249.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1295615574 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1295615869 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss < 1295615929 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode < 1295615941 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays. < 1295616119 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies < 1295616203 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1295616219 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1295616229 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1295616288 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1295616417 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least IPv6 has no digital signatures (at least outside IPSec). I heard some nutter say it has... < 1295616648 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.angryflower.com/thingy.html < 1295616855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But IPSec's a mandatory part of IPv6, so it still counts. < 1295616884 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, raise your hand if you are jealous of Craig Rowin < 1295617312 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NSA has sabotaged it enough... :-> < 1295617426 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No, I'm not saying that there's a backdoor in the IPSec specs... There isn't.) < 1295617772 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, are you sure? < 1295617842 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting backdoor in specs is quite stupid. There are better methods to sabotage it... :-) < 1295618464 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ninapaley.com/mimiandeunice/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ME_160_Rivalrous1-640x199.png < 1295620119 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1295620147 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1295620174 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295620270 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1295620735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1295620737 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1295620901 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1295621650 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, can you actually play the flute? < 1295621729 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not one iota. < 1295621746 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that is evidently why your trombute playing sucks, < 1295621762 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite probably :) < 1295621777 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You aren't even tonguing the notes! < 1295621795 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I play the piano :P < 1295621861 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IPv4 depletion mess: Now someone says that IANA does not plan to delay servicing the request (and thus main reason is APNIC somehow not sending the request). < 1295621909 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pianoflute. < 1295621912 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT MUST BE MADE < 1295621931 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow... Release date for DNF... < 1295621956 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: One of my great life plans is to make a series of instruments in which the note selection is by a keyboard, but the sound production is like the original instrument. < 1295621970 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pianolin. < 1295621973 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: So a keyboard horn would be played by lip buzzing, but the note selected by a keyboard and the world's most complicated series of valves. < 1295621989 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kiol is probably the most impossible :P < 1295621998 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Kiol = key + viol) < 1295622047 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not vastly difficult, except for the difficulty of bowing it while playing the keyboard. < 1295622058 0 :Tritonio!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1295622164 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem, in my opinion, is mainly with making double-stops work in any way, and that essentially for it to make any physical sense you'd have to key with your right hand and bow with your /left/ hand. < 1295622315 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And bowing with your left hand is ... it's just wrong) < 1295622371 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Double stops would just be pressing two keys, no? < 1295622593 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but physically what does that do, and how do you bow it? < 1295622643 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The pianoflute has issues with being either really tiny or several octaves too low to play.) < 1295622700 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think the trick to that one is that the flute is shorter than the keyboard, and the actual terminus to the flute proper is somewhere midway on the instrument. < 1295622733 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yes, but how do you blow it? < 1295622773 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... transverse? You'd be holding up your right hand at a bit of an angle to get to the keyboard, and holding it with your left hand. < 1295622801 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively it could go with the bass-flute route and be blown transverse, but then have an immediate bend and actually be held upright. < 1295622829 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, we appear to have come to an insurmountable disagreement. < 1295622838 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1295622855 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: How is yours played :P < 1295622881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a piano, except there's a mouthpiece to blow into. < 1295622890 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's a melodica. < 1295622899 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be difficult-to-impossible to make that produce a flute-like sound. < 1295622910 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1295622924 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's not blown transverse ... you could make a recorderalike like that and have a fipple. < 1295622952 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or The World's Most Impossible Instrument, the keyboe, with a double-reed mouthpiece. < 1295622987 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even go the clarinet or saxophone route with a single reed (which sound you'll get depending on the rest of the construction) < 1295623000 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for a flute ... that's really got to be transverse. < 1295623305 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this? < 1295623332 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But for a flute ... that's really got to be transverse. ← yeah, that's the tricky bit. < 1295623750 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could anyone please explain what http://oi56.tinypic.com/1qhocx.jpg means? Where does S2 go on B ? < 1295623804 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: it could go to either < 1295623807 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1295623809 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: that is nondeterminism < 1295623829 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this? ← I'd parse that as "can be matched in finite time by an FSA" < 1295623845 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, how does it choose? randomly? < 1295623876 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: it doesn't choose < 1295623880 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, that makes a bit more sense < 1295623911 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, hrm ? < 1295623912 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: consider the string abbbbbba it can accept that < 1295623930 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: by going s0 -> s1 -> s2 -> s1 -> s2 -> ... -> s2 -> s3 -> s4 < 1295623959 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1295624258 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1295624259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1295624310 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1295624556 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1295624575 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's forth stupid? < 1295624607 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I write a program z = 3; w = f(x,y); f cannot destroy my value of z by accident < 1295624612 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in forth it can < 1295624615 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you want that < 1295625038 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.66x/8. < 1295625128 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1295625133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S THE FIIINAL COUNTDOOOWN < 1295625167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.carstache.com/ < 1295625198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was exactly what i expected it to be < 1295625204 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is glorious < 1295625209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:13:44 I think Erlang may make it too easy to write my own impure functions < 1295625217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I thought you _liked_ that kind of shit. < 1295625226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:25:30 question: out of boredom, i decided to moniter the logs of my linode server. someone is trying to connect to it. what do i do? < 1295625235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set up a chroot and run ssh in it < 1295625239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when they connect, they think they're root < 1295625244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but every command does weird shit or mocks then < 1295625245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*them < 1295625251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# rm -rf / < 1295625256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that. < 1295625257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# wtf < 1295625283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:29:10 friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies < 1295625291 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: ah, Friend of Mine, the ultimate authority on everything < 1295625359 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: although i did briefly consider the opposite interpretation < 1295625376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: using a car as ... a moustache? < 1295625395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a moustache shaped like a car < 1295625407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google seems to fail me < 1295625450 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:23:06 Or The World's Most Impossible Instrument, the keyboe, with a double-reed mouthpiece. < 1295625453 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: why does this not exist < 1295625463 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I NOSE < 1295625466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:28:59 I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this? < 1295625474 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: not commenting on whether that's a good definition < 1295625477 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: but consider a^nb^nc^n < 1295625485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. any number of as, the same number of bs, and the same number of cs < 1295625489 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to store the number of "a"s < 1295625494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is an unbounded natural < 1295625499 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, therefore, takes arbitrary amounts of memory < 1295625505 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not so much a definition as a consequence >_> < 1295625524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1295625524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:50:10 it's forth stupid? < 1295625525 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:50:42 If I write a program z = 3; w = f(x,y); f cannot destroy my value of z by accident < 1295625535 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: in Haskell you can say "= undefined" why would you want that < 1295625540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No Forther says that that is a feature :P < 1295625550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're treating that like it's a purported feature, not a caveat < 1295625561 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha < 1295625603 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1295625671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: also matching parentheses is not regular < 1295625697 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hey that means that you can't even implement finite-tape brainfuck on an FSA :D < 1295625701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*checking for proper matching of parentheses < 1295625706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: because you can't parse every program < 1295625711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1295625714 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the best < 1295625723 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, and yet finite-tape brainfuck isn't TC < 1295625728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's Turing-requiring but not Turing complete < 1295625730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird < 1295625759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: parentheses matching doesn't require TC, just something within context-free < 1295625767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1295625779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well point is, it requires a more powerful automaton to run than it can actually "harness" < 1295625789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1295625870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually a^nb^n is enough for not being regular. a^nb^nc^n gives you not even context-free iirc < 1295625877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(stronger pumping lemma) < 1295625897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, someone needs to make a language based on a^nb^nc^n < 1295625903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably, with almost no computational power :D < 1295625915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does that ring a bell < 1295625977 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaabbbccc < 1295625985 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^n b^n c^n is context-sensitive but not context-free. < 1295625996 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same for a^n b^n c^n d^n < 1295625997 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaabbbcccyyyzzzyyywwwiiimmm < 1295626001 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slkjgdfgih\ < 1295626002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fdsaxpxo]zp[a;]pojhv < 1295626003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]; < 1295626053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah adding letter doesn't help, context-free == needs at most linear memory < 1295626057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*letters < 1295626062 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1295626066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-sensitive < 1295626181 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun task: Describe a language that is not even context-sensitive but is recognable by recursive algorithm. < 1295626202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's enough for most things you'd want to do in practice, even includes SAT (NP-complete) < 1295626250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: ML/Haskell type checking iirc < 1295626268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly that's just on the border of unknown equality < 1295626379 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: hit 60 second ping time - reconnecting < 1295626389 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What's the complexity class of that (at least the bounds for the class)? < 1295626502 0 :invariable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1295626519 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what does Turing-requiring mean? < 1295626532 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something i just made up and ignore me < 1295626547 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a^nb^nc^n == a* b*c* in regex < 1295626555 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm wait < 1295626557 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1295626559 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== < 1295626577 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a^nb^nc^n == a{n}b{n}c{n} in regex < 1295626589 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is {n} not regex anymore? < 1295626594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: bah i'm having trouble googling it < 1295626598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: no that's not valid regex < 1295626609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regex = REGular EXpressions, most regexp implementations are actually more powerful than regular languages < 1295626612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still mostly regular :) < 1295626614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the name < 1295626635 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only perl regexes can do a^nb^nc^n i think < 1295626650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: discussion we had recently at work: not counting (??{}) and (?{}) (i.e. embedded Perl), are Perl regexen TC? < 1295626653 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually I lied < 1295626659 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaabbbbbccccc < 1295626665 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever N happens to be < 1295626666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely convinced Perl regexen /can/ do a^nb^nc^n < 1295626671 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: hm? < 1295626675 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although they can definitely do a^nb^n, and regular expressions can't) < 1295626676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I suspect you can do a^nb^nc^n with the same stuff you use to do nested parens < 1295626690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you can't, nested parens can be done by a PDA, a^nb^nc^n can't < 1295626691 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, when you say ^n you just mean repeating N times - right? < 1295626699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: yes < 1295626703 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: yes, but the point is that it's the same n for each of them < 1295626703 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: all Ns must be the same < 1295626713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, well you can do something similar: let a be (, b be (, and c be )) < 1295626715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so aabbcc matches but aabbccc doesn't < 1295626721 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that checks that a+b = c < 1295626721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then c's n must be a's n plus b's n divided by two < 1295626727 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, right < 1295626728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, a+b = 2c < 1295626730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1295626738 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which is close but not exact < 1295626743 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah - so your defining N by the first pattern. I thought N was fixed. < 1295626746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, I think you might be able to do it via zero-width assertions < 1295626748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: now, if you can somehow localise the checking that a and b are the same < 1295626757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could check that a+b = 2c and that a=b < 1295626761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then that becomes a+a = b+b = 2c, and thus -- yup < 1295626764 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i said :) < 1295626768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus 2a = 2b = 2c, ergo a=b=c < 1295626779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: right < 1295626917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: ah, "An example of this phenomena is the complexity of Type Inference in ML which was shown. to be complete for EXPTIME in [HM]." < 1295626941 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, wait < 1295626964 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm thinking you'd treat a as (, b as [ (just like ( but a different char), and c as )) < 1295626965 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, ah < 1295626969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c as ]), even < 1295626970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1295626972 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's between context-sensitive and recursive. < 1295626978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that doesn't work < 1295626982 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't? < 1295626987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what doesn't < 1295626991 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: although i don't think it is known whether EXPTIME is larger than PSPACE so that _might_ not actually be an example < 1295626994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a as (, b as [, c as [) < 1295626998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*c as ]) < 1295627043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the general beliefs would imply that it is < 1295627062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, i meant c as )) < 1295627068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and b would be treated as ( for that stage < 1295627077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that still doesn't prove that a=b, at all < 1295627089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, you'd do the first part by treating a as ( and b as ) < 1295627105 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001f5b00390f-CM001e6b2335dc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295627120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: anything EXPSPACE-complete will certainly work, however < 1295627123 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1295627131 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1295627136 0 :cheater00!~cheater@g228061021.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1295627166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: "An example of an EXPSPACE-complete problem is the problem of recognizing whether two regular expressions represent different languages, ..." < 1295627249 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@194-236-14-54.customer.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295627410 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: < 1295627416 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/^$|^(?=(?a(?&x)?b)c+$)a+(?b(?&y)?c)$/ < 1295627420 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that took a bit of working out < 1295627423 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, PSPACE is strict subset of EXPSPACE, so EXPSPACE-complete problems are not in PSPACE. < 1295627423 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "Is it possible to write bug free programs in haskell" reply: "why would you want to do that" < 1295627427 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be golfed from there, I was trying to keep it readable < 1295627431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I agree; who said that? < 1295627436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: now do it in cyclexa < 1295627445 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1295627446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to remember Cyclexa syntax
< 1295627463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a*)(b*):1(c*):1 < 1295627468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming I've remembered what : does correctly < 1295627479 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is definitely an operator that does that, I might just have got the wrong character < 1295627480 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: somone said " you can give formal proof your behavior" and I asked how and he said he didn't know < 1295627495 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Writing a bug-free program -- as in *writing* one -- is far, *far* more trouble than it is worth. Writing a buggy program, and then iteratively improving it, is far more productive and practical, 80% of the time, IMO. < 1295627500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Cyclex'as much simpler < 1295627504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Cyclexa's < 1295627507 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course formal verification is useful often, especially for data structure libraries and the like. < 1295627512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XMonad has a few components formally proven, I believe. < 1295627516 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: to be precise every context-sensitive language is in PSPACE, and some PSPACE-complete problems are, although not all since needing linear memory is not closed under polymial reductions < 1295627516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*xmonad < 1295627519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it has a "parse trees are equal" assertion < 1295627530 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"bug free software is by definition trivial" < 1295627538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*problems are context-sensitive < 1295627555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*languages < 1295627573 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the compilers I'm creating as part of my PhD are formally proven < 1295627579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because the proofs are more interesting than the compilers < 1295627579 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of the famous knuth quote: "I have only proved this correct ...." < 1295627585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, they exist only in proof form atm < 1295627595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it isn't executable < 1295627596 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, where are you doing your PhD ? < 1295627597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks if he keeps adding *-corrections deciphering them might end up being NP-complete
< 1295627609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: Birmingham University < 1295627610 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: birmingham! ok i swear i will stop answering people's questions for them some day < 1295627611 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some day < 1295627612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOE DAY < 1295627615 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*M < 1295627625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ninja'd < 1295627634 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, you didn't answer my question for me < 1295627637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'd already answered < 1295627639 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I typed it slowly to seem less creepy < 1295627640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1295627644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't see why you'd think that < 1295627647 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*walrus < 1295627669 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyone the sense I get form #haskell is don't bother writing correct programs < 1295627672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh look, P==NP has been proven again < 1295627679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I agree. < 1295627680 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: since they don't exist, your an idiot if you want a program that works, etc . < 1295627683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be more excited if P==NP and P!=NP weren't proved so often < 1295627684 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, some day... :-) what is your thesis on? < 1295627686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I don't agree. < 1295627706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invariable: compiling software to hardware, via type systems < 1295627712 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: But I believe writing mostly-correct programs and then iteratively improving them is far, far more productive in many, many cases than writing programs that are correct the first time. < 1295627718 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know why so many people care, probably just because there is money on it < 1295627730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's an important problem < 1295627732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: also because it's a really irritating problem, in a sense < 1295627732 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Nobody gave a shit with the BQP thing that was recently proved < 1295627734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an interesting one < 1295627737 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you're an important interesting problem < 1295627740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P does != NP, there's no obvious way to prove it at all < 1295627756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say the details of the proof would be more interesting than that for, say, Fermat's Last Theorem < 1295627760 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like "Hey im a complexity theorist when people prove HUGE resuts in the field" < 1295627775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scott aaronson cares about everything! < 1295627782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats elliott -----###
< 1295627786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[When people want to emphasize how pathetically far we are from proving P≠NP, they often use the following argument: for godsakes, we can’t even prove that NEXP-complete problems aren’t solvable by depth-3, polynomial-size circuits consisting entirely of mod 6 gates! < 1295627786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no more.]] < 1295627793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the latest P == NP result is an algorithm for 3-SAT that actually has source available, so errors should be quite easy to find < 1295627799 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't that just because you understand computation much deeper than modular forms? < 1295627808 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: perhaps < 1295627815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be biased < 1295627819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people are < 1295627823 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally, I know fine well that when it's proved I will not be able to understand a single word < 1295627832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any interesting theorems that depend on fermat's last? :D < 1295627836 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have to spend decades studying this stuff to get to that level < 1295627841 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems completely useless, off the top of my head < 1295627848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the nice thing about P=NP proofs with algorithms is that it's easy to test them on actual hard cases < 1295627865 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "Now we're just waiting for the A(G64,G64) constant to run out." < 1295627876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, Slashdot has worked it out already, apparently it doesn't work in all cases < 1295627886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's just an algorithm for solving special cases of 3SAT, which obviously doesn't prove P=NP < 1295627895 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1295627910 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: slashdot, the home of complexity theorists < 1295627930 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the thing I love about Slashdot is, whatever the story, there will be exactly one comment by someone who really knows what they're doing that explains the whole thing < 1295627940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's worth putting up with the other 500 or so comments of nonsense just to find that one < 1295627961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more than one person who knows what's really going on often reads Slashdot, but once one completely correct explanation is posted, the others don't bother) < 1295627967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo will be so sad, Stargate Universe has been cancelled < 1295627996 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+1 < 1295628012 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it was an opinion of his obviously...i was asking for alternate opinions < 1295628014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm surprised there isn't some super-secret invite-only version of Slashdot for just the people who post those kinds of comments :P (okay, not *very* surprised) < 1295628029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: um i think it's a stupid opinion, everyone already has an IP address now, to some approximation < 1295628030 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the same people are the people who post all the junk on other stories, though < 1295628042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think making the two separate computers in your house have different IP addresses will change anything? < 1295628046 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's obviously incorrect, there are more people in the world than there are IPv4 addresses < 1295628056 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring things like Qatar's country-wide NAT, because they're edge-cases < 1295628058 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scary thought, isn't it? < 1295628059 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean people on the Internet < 1295628066 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1295628077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm wondering how Qatar /does/ NAT a whole country < 1295628083 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i agree. but it can't be denied that there is some influence at work in the world to make piracy more difficult < 1295628087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely sometimes they have more than 65535 people trying to connect at once? < 1295628096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: umm < 1295628104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: nice conspiracy, but IPv6 has been around for a LONG time < 1295628110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before piracy fighting became the hot thing... < 1295628126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RFC 2460 was published in 1998 < 1295628128 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not about IPv6. this is about anonymous proxies < 1295628135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said it in the context of ipv6 < 1295628137 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this opinion? IPv4 being deliberately limited in order to prevent people torrenting? < 1295628144 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LO < 1295628145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "very vague" < 1295628148 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*LOL < 1295628148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it is impossible to block all anonymous proxies < 1295628152 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IPv4 is far older than torrenting < 1295628153 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i meant it as a completely different discussion < 1295628154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because setting one up is trivial < 1295628167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: < 1295628167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:25:00 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss < 1295628167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:26:00 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode < 1295628174 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I know, but elliott implied that it was a stupid opinion, and I was trying to think up a suitably stupid opinion that fit in the context of the conversation < 1295628177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first line is wrong, second line is wrong < 1295628190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: second line is arguably sarcasm < 1295628197 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1295628201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean last line < 1295628202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not second line < 1295628204 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first line is also the opinion of the friend i disagree with < 1295628207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were only two lines < 1295628213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: your friend is stupid :D < 1295628216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: err? < 1295628217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there were four < 1295628222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:25:00 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss < 1295628222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:26:00 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode < 1295628222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:26:11 Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays. < 1295628227 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there are three < 1295628229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1295628231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something seems wrong with your copy/paste < 1295628232 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1295628240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:25:00 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss < 1295628240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:26:00 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode < 1295628240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:26:11 Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays. < 1295628247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still three < 1295628253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you have some ignore or something < 1295628258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) 13:25:00 quintopia < 1295628263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) 13:26:00 j-invariant < 1295628265 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also see only three < 1295628267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) 13:26:11 fizzie < 1295628270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4) 13:29:10 quintopia < 1295628273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: herobrine only saw three < 1295628280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck :D < 1295628286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's (4) that I'm missing < 1295628286 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix your client? < 1295628288 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1295628291 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm i wonder if i have some script that's broken < 1295628299 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* *** Message to #esoteric throttled due to flooding < 1295628302 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that explains it < 1295628307 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking freenode < 1295628314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok let us try that again < 1295628317 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:25:00 the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss < 1295628320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX < 1295628324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:26:00 quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode < 1295628326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes more sense than the several minutes of fakelag that flooding used to give you < 1295628327 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX < 1295628331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:26:11 Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays. < 1295628334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX < 1295628338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 13:29:10 friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies < 1295628340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX < 1295628342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1295628361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one seems a little implausible just due to the instability of various countries < 1295628371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somalia is actually an anarchy IIRC, it legally allows anything because there are no laws < 1295628378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, somalia has a government now i think < 1295628384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :progress! < 1295628391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *think* < 1295628397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think its populace would certainly want a government, at least < 1295628397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, that's a strange interpretation; it (was/is) locally ruled by mobs < 1295628405 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anarchy tends not to work too well in practice < 1295628412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: indeed, that's what happens in an anarchy < 1295628417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't call that law, though < 1295628423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1295628427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're strawmanning anarchy here < 1295628431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somalia has never been an anarchy < 1295628433 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, perhaps < 1295628446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's like telling a socialist "hey, go and live in soviet russia LOL if you think that's so great LOL" < 1295628448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at what point does a mob become a government? < 1295628456 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it eliminates all the other mobs < 1295628461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, good answer < 1295628599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going in the other direction, at what point does a government become a mob? < 1295628616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, idea: you know how you treated B Nomic as an esolang a while ago? < 1295628621 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when someone on twitter says so < 1295628622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could do that with real-world governments < 1295628622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: when other mobs appear that manage to override its power in some cases < 1295628639 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (arguably, governments are just a certain /type/ of mob, and so they never cease to be one) < 1295628647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1295628818 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Duke Nukem Forever now has a specific release date (May 3) < 1295628845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afair the "mobs" in somalia weren't without law, it's just that their law is an even-more-than-average fucked up version of sharia < 1295628856 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, somalia wasn't lawless, just fractured < 1295628871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. punishing women for _being_ raped) < 1295628881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1295628882 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there _was_ that thing about their market being so free that they had the absolute lowest SMS prices in the world, but that's not quite worth the rest of the situation there :) < 1295628894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and also ignores all the /downsides/ of a totally unrestricted economy) < 1295628929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe that in the US it costs to _receive_ a text message < 1295628955 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that model is going out of style elliott < 1295628960 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fuckers < 1295628984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, it never costs to receive a call or text < 1295629004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except when the other person explicitly reverses the charges, in which case the operator phones you up and asks if you're willing to accept a reverse charge call < 1295629016 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the US, wireless companies are trolls and milk you for whatever money they can get < 1295629040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*everywhere, < 1295629048 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or in a few cases like the one we have at home, where in addition to our normal phone number, we have a reverse charge phone number where we pay for anyone phoning it; it's stupidly long to prevent anyone guessing it, and exists so that I can call home via payphones in emergencies) < 1295629071 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Couldn't you just reverse the charges in the normal way? < 1295629074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in the UK it's less than in the US because there's lots of competition, although instead of giving people good deals, the wireless companies mostly just try to confuse the hell out of everyone < 1295629082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually know how that works here though < 1295629088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to contact the operator and ask < 1295629096 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with an operator involves, things get more expensive < 1295629099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*involved < 1295629106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but it's for /emergencies/ :P < 1295629112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to regularly phone home reverse-charge from school, not for emergencies at all < 1295629119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reverse-charge number was my usual method of contact < 1295629124 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I didn't have a mobile, and didn't want one < 1295629143 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number still works AFAIK, but I hardly ever end up needing to use a payphone nowadays, mostly because most of them no longer exist < 1295629156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I've needed to a couple of times in emergencies, and typed in the whole number and it still works < 1295629167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the number starts 0800, so it works from payphones too) < 1295629169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what is it, 0123456789876543210? < 1295629172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1295629184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, it's 23 digits long < 1295629197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at that length, unlikely to be guessed < 1295629225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first 10 are the same for all reverse charge numbers, though, and follow a pattern; the other 13 provide the entropy) < 1295629348 0 :Oklopol!~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1295629361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O < 1295629363 0 :Oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1295629365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/01/20/2028252/Facebook-Images-To-Get-Expiration-Date err, no thank you < 1295629383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prediction: X-Pire will never be implemented for Linux < 1295629384 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SECURITY EXCEPTION: Please type in your mothers madien name: < 1295629396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :causing Linux to be useless on Facebook (OK, this one is a stretch, it does not appear to be associated with facebook at all) < 1295629399 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus causing its death < 1295629412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that's a pretty stupid idea < 1295629419 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's to stop people just saving the key with the image? < 1295629428 0 :Oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1295629428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: worse is the Slashdot-quality reporting, which suggests that it's in any way affiliated with Facebook < 1295629429 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1295629436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially the title < 1295629439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1295629443 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1295629454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I assumed that would mean would be that facebook would automatically delete images after a while < 1295629463 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what the hell that makes no sense < 1295629470 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no cryptographic way to do that < 1295629475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would actually be useful, but which would never happen because facebook users probably use it for the purpose of keeping the photos around forever < 1295629483 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not cryptography, it's CRYPTOLOGY! Like cryptography but less scientific! < 1295629488 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the "date" is actually a password that comes from facebook.org < 1295629490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We used astrological measurements to invent the scheme! < 1295629497 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1295629497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: lol ".org" < 1295629502 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facebook the non-profit < 1295629506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow it redirects to .com < 1295629507 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me the MD5 hash of your name + crush < 1295629512 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ill tell you if youre a match < 1295629518 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the Artemis Fowl books needed something like that for plot reasons, they invented a sort of virus that physically lived on the bits, being copied along with them, and degraded them over time < 1295629526 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thus solving piracy! < 1295629528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is good enough for fiction, I suppose < 1295629535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more plausible than most of the DRM schemes people come up with < 1295629562 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like something from discworld... < 1295629565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it isn't obviously completely broken, the only problem is the physical impossibility because bits don't work like that < 1295629598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what happens if you use the analogue hole :) < 1295629601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it INFECT the result? < 1295629644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the character in the book used the analog hole specifically to get a permanent copy before it degraded completely < 1295629648 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're a pope, ais523 < 1295629650 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as of 4 minutes ago < 1295629655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G. is asking you if you're ready < 1295629655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Agora? < 1295629655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agora < 1295629657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1295629667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should look up what that means < 1295629674 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks important < 1295629688 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Viewing these images requires the free X-Pire browser add-on. Currently only a version that works with Firefox is available. Those without the viewer will be unable to see any protected image. < 1295629688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you're a dictator < 1295629698 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are these people able to call themselves "researchers"?? < 1295629703 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are just plugin authors < 1295629715 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not research this is engineering < 1295629718 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the book, the virus was used in order to transmit a message without the source being traceable, the idea being that the analog hole would save the video, but not the source information < 1295629727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: you can do research into engineering, I suppose < 1295629738 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not a research problem to write a stupid little plugin :/ < 1295629744 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I am trying to say < 1295629751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the research is probably the DRM algo < 1295629754 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes zero sense, they are using "research" to sound authoratative < 1295629762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plenty of research involves engineering to demonstrate its effectiveness < 1295629762 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the plugin just an implementation < 1295629775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in my PhD where the research is the algos for contructing the compiler, and the engineering is the compiler itself < 1295629786 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that spam is pointless < 1295629787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, I vaguely recall that virus thing (I read the books, but many years ago) < 1295629788 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like fracebook < 1295629796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subject: xvff85; content: wq5 < 1295629798 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it < 1295629799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a book for your fraces < 1295629802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but asodij409? < 1295629843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how should I know? < 1295629853 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, maybe jsdg9 < 1295629887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the pope rules still don't actually do anythign < 1295629889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*anything < 1295629933 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I think I'm platonically ready < 1295629939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to being a pope < 1295629939 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001f5b00390f-CM001e6b2335dc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1295629950 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :popes are defined to be ready, that's what G. was referring to < 1295629975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a policy that we are ready < 1295629991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think I'm going to read every single log of #esoteric, in order, from the first day to the last < 1295630012 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1295630041 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be brutally honest, I don't *beleive* in timing attacks < 1295630064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your belief is incorrect... depending on your definition of timing attacks < 1295630072 0 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1295630075 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's absolutely ridiculuous < 1295630077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: got a copy of the Vladivostok Telephone DIrectory handy, btw? < 1295630089 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait a second TCP timing attack makes sense < 1295630102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: don't believe they can work? don't believe they exist? don't believe they're useful? < 1295630106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't believe anyone tries them? < 1295630113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://www.nomer.org/vladivostok/ < 1295630114 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I did not belive anyone uses them successfully < 1295630146 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1295630153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's now a requirement (not just a SHOULD) to read the vladivostok telephone directory in the first week of February < 1295630159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because people were getting bored a couple of months ago < 1295630159 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if something takes 34 microseconds that means what? You would have to know my CPU and how much other stuff I was computing at the same time etc < 1295630174 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, can I NoV you for that? < 1295630179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps we should change it back before the first week of February actually happens < 1295630192 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AGAINST < 1295630194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, I'm going to find a few phone numbers in Vladivostok and read those, it's close enough < 1295630199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you should NoV Yally, e's the Pariah < 1295630209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: very insufficient, also, what does pariah do again? < 1295630213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'll NoV everyone < 1295630226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pariah wins if e goes long enough without accumulating Rests < 1295630229 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that everyone picks on them < 1295630238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for even really minor rules breaches < 1295630250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i'll just NoV everyone < 1295630251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1295630262 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't, NoVs are rate-limited < 1295630265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IMO, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that you obtained and read the Vladivostok telephone directory :)) < 1295630269 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: injustice! < 1295630277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll need your help, then < 1295630284 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: except it isn't, the burden of proof is on the judge < 1295630292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, the person bringing the NoV, indiretly < 1295630294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*indirectly < 1295630300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I just mean that I'm not going to bother to /ask/ anyone before NoVing them < 1295630367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this one's shorter: http://pozvoni.net.ua/eng/yadro/179 < 1295630378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has a funky sidebar < 1295630410 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm glad i am not participating in this nomic < 1295630415 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds evil < 1295630438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't normally, just people were getting bored < 1295630470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: but it's the longest-running Nomic by far! < 1295630479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it's heading towards its 18th birthday < 1295630485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i wonder if it won't almost die before then < 1295630531 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it's had winners in that time... < 1295630647 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: winning doesn't end the game < 1295630666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've won over ten times now, I think < 1295630682 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1295630686 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1295630754 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what timing attacks are relevant < 1295630757 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them seem nonsense < 1295630761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05.10.20: Lisp/Scheme program text < 1295630799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also have java, pascal and c++ programs as logs < 1295630801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for logs < 1295630821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file(1) is pretty bad at identifying programming languages < 1295630870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, cpressey was here in '05. < 1295630894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:42:06 Where's {^Raven^} :P < 1295630895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:42:17 Whatever happened to {^Raven^}... < 1295630895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:42:37 nevermore. < 1295630902 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:43:31 Maybe the two working ones exploded :-P < 1295630965 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'haskell sucks, I should stop going < 1295630974 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm trying to remember when I joined #esoteric < 1295630982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I was active on the wiki first, and found the channel via the wiki < 1295631065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07.01.15:09:15:34 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric < 1295631065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07.01.15:09:16:16 So there are people on #esoteric at the moment after all, then? I was monitoring the logs to see if anyone was online, but somehow I never seem to be online at the same time as other people... < 1295631070 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@86.241.112.87.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1295631079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There are no 800 pound gorillas. Very obese gorillas held in captivity may top out at 600 lbs at most. A healthy, strong, alpha gorilla out in the wild would weigh no more than 350-400 lbs. 800 pound gorillas are pure fantasy. < 1295631082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i be the channel's official archivist, that would be nice < 1295631099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, that hostname brings back memories < 1295631111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:58:02 ^AACTION is not!^A < 1295631113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what... < 1295631118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those are literal ^As in the log) < 1295631129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I've been here just over three years, it feels like longer < 1295631190 0 :invariable!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1295631193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other news, the video formats war is getting steadily more ridiculous < 1295631205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:21:54 I did Bitwise Cyclic Tag in Excel. < 1295631205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:22:09 And I don't mean a macro or anything. < 1295631206 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:22:21 with cell arithmetic? < 1295631207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft released a plugin for Firefox on Windows that makes it do H.264 in the