00:00:02 pikhq I am actually making progress on Kitten so you should be happy. 00:00:03 oh, it could be that 00:00:19 c) the judge is unsure about the jurisdictional issue and figures somehow issuing a TRO is correct? 00:00:23 (see a) 00:00:27 Sony's lawyers are literally down the street from this court... 00:00:38 whoaaaa it broke 00:00:43 d) the judge is planning to reject the jurisdictional challenge but hasn't written it up yet 00:00:47 vfork_daemon_rexec.c:(.text.bb_daemonize_or_rexec+0x21): undefined reference to `close' 00:00:48 what the fuck 00:00:57 OH 00:01:13 coppro: Incompetence or malicious ignorance is required for d. 00:01:44 coppro: As it currently stands, the TRO has been granted but jurisdiction may not exist. 00:02:18 00:11:47 pikhq: it could be a) the judge is simply incompetent 00:02:18 00:11:57 oh, it could be that 00:02:19 00:12:12 c) the judge is unsure about the jurisdictional issue and figures somehow issuing a TRO is correct? 00:02:19 00:12:16 (see a) 00:02:20 where did b go 00:02:27 pikhq: ask coppro where b went 00:02:38 pikhq: No, d) is entirely reasonable 00:02:50 if I as the judge was entirely sure I was going to reject the motion to dismiss 00:02:53 but hadn't written it up 00:02:58 I would go for the TRO still 00:03:12 since I have alread decided I have jurisdiction 00:03:26 hmm 00:03:27 coppro: The issue is that before you reject the motion to dismiss, it is de jure entirely in question whether you have any power to grant the TRO. 00:03:38 pikhq: how can one use -nostdinc but still get gcc internal headers? 00:03:44 no, the power is platonice 00:03:46 *platonic 00:04:05 coppro: So, courts have power in Pluto? 00:04:24 ... no 00:04:29 If you say "yes" I'm commiting xenocide. 00:04:32 Ah, good. 00:04:36 I mean that if I have jurisdiction, I have jursdiction 00:04:50 I don't need to say "no your motion to dismiss for lack of jursidction fails" for that to be the case 00:07:24 pikhq: he said platonic, not plutonic. pay attention! 00:08:09 coppro: Also, merely rejecting the motion to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction *seems* to indicate maliciousness or incompetence to me. 00:09:56 coppro: One of the many, many claims here is that exercising personal jurisdiction over Mr. Hotz is unreasonable in this case, and as such the court must dismiss... 00:09:57 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:10:04 coppro: Sony has done fuck-all to address this. 00:10:22 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:10:37 http://www.scribd.com/doc/47676622/1-Defendant%E2%80%99s-Supplemental-Brief-in-Opposition-to-Plaintiff-s-Ex-Parte-Motion-for-Temptorary-Restraining-Order 00:10:41 See ^ 00:10:47 http://www.scribd.com/doc/47676625/47-Plaintiffs-Reply-to-Defendant-s-Supplemental-Brief 00:10:53 And that fail. 00:13:48 pikhq: he hasn't rejected the motion to dismiss yet, has he? 00:17:03 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 00:20:48 dismiss motion to reject 00:21:30 coppro: Not at all. 00:21:42 coppro: Also "she". 00:22:56 -!- Ilari has joined. 00:23:02 pikhq: excuse me importance in -minecraft 00:23:17 elliott: I'm up to 21, okay? 00:23:21 IMPORTANCE 00:23:28 pikhq: ok 00:23:32 pikhq: you have to get through Survival Island too 00:23:37 before you're up to date for this new one 00:23:46 IMPORTANCE 00:23:52 elliott: I've got a 3 day weekend coming up. 00:23:56 YAY 00:23:59 Like I will every week this semester. 00:27:03 -!- cheater- has joined. 00:27:19 jerk 00:27:36 admittedly, the actual stuff I care about Friday ends at 11:30 am 00:29:57 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:31:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:38:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:43:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:47:15 jmcarthur is an idiot 00:47:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:52:49 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:56:40 -!- c0w has joined. 00:56:49 j-invariant: seriously, what is your problem 00:57:02 ignored 00:57:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 00:57:34 it's just me 00:57:34 j-invariant: stop it. 00:57:38 I'm trying to get through to j-invariant 00:57:42 it's fucking ridiculous 00:57:50 we explained what was wrong 00:57:53 we told him/her to stop 00:58:03 then jmcarthur is an idiot for silencing? 00:58:16 oh drama. 00:58:41 j-invariant: why not just be more civil to people ... 00:58:45 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*116559cd@*.17.101.89.205. 00:58:57 er 00:59:00 who's c0w 00:59:03 me 00:59:06 I just said so 00:59:11 oh 00:59:12 indeed he did 00:59:18 j-invariant: do you have me on ignore 00:59:25 i'm pretty sure e does 00:59:46 j-invariant has everyone on ignore 00:59:54 as I said, IRC is a twitter substitute 01:00:01 (with no other users) 01:00:09 * copumpkin sighs 01:00:17 ... He has *everyone* on ignore‽ 01:00:19 oerjan: you could've just asked me to remove it 01:00:24 pikhq: more or less 01:00:29 obviously me, copumpkin, augur 01:00:33 maybe even oerjan 01:00:38 j-invariant: Mi ankaŭ? 01:01:08 I think j-invariant needs some...cool down time away from IRC. 01:01:23 I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to 01:01:30 *sigh* 01:01:31 What the heck happened, anyways? 01:01:35 can someone paste that so that j-invariant can see it? 01:01:40 ^cat I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to 01:01:48 hmm 01:01:50 !echo I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to 01:01:52 `echo I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to 01:01:56 lol 01:01:59 wtf is up with the bots 01:02:01 I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to 01:02:08 I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to 01:02:10 oops, it's going to come through twice 01:02:17 copumpkin is a fucking annoying twat 01:02:18 elliott: EgoBot and HackEgo are _always_ slow, you know that perfectly well 01:02:24 lol 01:02:28 j-invariant: none of that shit. 01:02:29 kthx. 01:02:35 copumpkin: well his temper has been shortening by the day. 01:02:41 a temporary ban is probably for the best ... 01:02:53 copumpkin: IRC is open source, so it's better than twitter 01:02:56 `echo j-invariant: why am I (elliott) on /ignore? 01:02:57 j-invariant: why am I (elliott) on /ignore? 01:03:01 Mathnerd314: IRC isn't software, so no it's not open source 01:03:26 Mathnerd314: It is, however, an *open standard*. 01:03:32 `echo j-invariant: I seriously just want to know what I said ... 01:03:36 j-invariant: I seriously just want to know what I said ... 01:03:40 elliott: the freenode servers are open-source, as are several clients, and the standard is as well... it's about as open as can be 01:04:09 `echo j-invariant because I've asked you to be civil and stop disparaging Haskell in #haskell? I'm not even sure when you ignored me or why. Can you unignore me and we can sort this out in private maybe? 01:04:10 j-invariant because I've asked you to be civil and stop disparaging Haskell in #haskell? I'm not even sure when you ignored me or why. Can you unignore me and we can sort this out in private maybe? 01:04:28 um copumpkin 01:04:31 it might be good to note that that was you 01:04:32 not me 01:04:34 or something 01:04:38 because we're getting mixed up botwise here 01:04:45 that makes things more fun :) 01:04:46 `echo --copumpkin 01:04:47 --copumpkin 01:04:50 :D 01:05:06 i should point out that i consider evading ignores to be bannable. 01:05:17 oh my 01:05:25 a power whore 01:05:26 -!- copumpkin has left (?). 01:05:49 sheesh is _everyone_ overreacting now... 01:06:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 01:06:15 oerjan: oh come on, evading ignores happens in here all the time. 01:06:23 copumpkin was trying to reach a peaceful resolution to the situation in #haskell. 01:06:51 oerjan: are personal insults a bannable offence? 01:08:02 i was implying somewhat more extreme cases 01:08:23 oerjan: what does that mean 01:08:40 *sigh* 01:08:45 oerjan: that's an actual question :/ 01:08:49 i can't parse the sentence 01:09:10 oh joy at least Zetsubou-sensei had the courtesy to hang himself m aybe I sh;uold 01:10:23 Is j-invariant bipolar or something? 01:11:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:11:14 sorry for being hot-headed 01:11:30 but having rejoined, I shall now close my laptop and walk home! 01:11:48 farewell 01:11:53 Ĝis. 01:14:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 01:14:43 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*116559cd@*.17.101.89.205. 01:14:49 how undramatic 01:14:54 isn't there meant to be a boss fight? 01:15:27 I'll return and resume the boss fight later :) 01:16:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 01:16:30 i'd better level up 01:16:35 can i use you as a punching bag oerjan? 01:18:40 as if you've ever asked before 01:20:03 *bothered to ask 01:20:19 well j-invariant's been -q'd on #haskell now 01:20:23 maybe we can just forget it ever happened! >_> 01:21:00 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 01:21:07 let's try that for a while 01:23:23 So. Egypt no longer has Internet at all. 01:23:31 huh. 01:23:35 i'm hogging their pipe 01:23:52 The local government shut down pretty much all ISPs in response to the protests. 01:24:34 mubarak doesn't mess around. 01:24:45 No, but he may still be fucked. 01:25:50 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:27:18 idea: free distributed wireless 01:27:45 define distributed 01:32:01 lots of tiny routers scattered around 01:51:37 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: Changing server). 01:52:05 -!- Warrigal has joined. 01:52:56 -!- Warrigal has quit (Client Quit). 02:04:23 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:14:33 Idea: Mind-bogglingly slow Internet access which is extremely prone to middle-man attacks. 02:15:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: By joining this chatroom you consent to the jurisdiction of the Principality of Gregora, Land of Hats. | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 02:15:49 Gregor: AMAZING 02:16:30 shouldn't that be http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats ? 02:32:04 Wow, I haven't eaten much these past two days 02:32:16 ...actually, I don't think I even ate today 02:35:00 Gregor: :) 02:35:13 Sgeo: you realise eating is a requirement of human life 02:39:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:49:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:51:29 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:51:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:51:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:52:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:56:22 -!- azaq23 has joined. 03:03:31 -!- augur has joined. 03:05:11 oerjan: cure my headache 03:06:10 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:07:10 * oerjan waves his hands vaguely in a southwestern direction 03:07:16 THERE YOU ARE 03:08:17 oerjan: IT HURTS 03:08:21 Gregor: not if you use https 03:08:35 YOU HAVE TOO LITTLE FAITH, ELLIOTT 03:08:41 it hurts 03:08:49 Mathnerd314: that doesn't solve the slow problem. or the unreliable problem. 03:08:58 Mathnerd314: also, https is insecure if you get MITM'd 03:09:05 because the man in the middle can just send you any old certificate 03:09:10 so uh no 03:09:12 elliott: not if you cache your certificates 03:09:25 Mathnerd314: so basically to use this you have to first have a real internet connetion 03:09:27 *connection 03:09:28 get the certificate 03:09:30 go outside 03:09:34 and then use the slow, unreliable, insecure network? 03:10:06 elliott: you send for a USB key in the mail, plug it in, and use the internet. alternately, it comes preloaded on the PC 03:10:13 what? 03:10:17 what do usb keys have to do with anything 03:10:29 MAIL IN THE MIDDLE ATTACKS 03:10:30 elliott: they can carry certificates 03:10:51 Mathnerd314: you buy a USB key containing the certificate of every website ever? 03:10:54 oerjan: if they can get your mail, they can get anything 03:11:00 i have no fucking clue what you're on about 03:11:02 elliott: no, just the root certs 03:11:18 doesn't help 03:11:31 anyway root certs aren't a trustable model in the slighest. 03:11:34 your idea is a bad idea. :p 03:12:07 elliott: I'm pretty certain there's some protocol for secure communication over an insecure medium with prior knowledge 03:12:23 Mathnerd314: going to work on the incredibly slow and unreliable problems? 03:12:42 elliott: why would it be slow and unreliable? 03:12:59 Gregor: yo join in, i have a headache and typing is hard 03:13:00 elliott: bittorrent is fast 03:13:11 Mathnerd314: slow because there would be many, many router hops. 03:13:12 (and reliable) 03:13:16 unreliable because routers would go out all the time. 03:13:23 Mathnerd314: bittorrent has central trackers 03:13:26 the DHT is less fast and reliable 03:13:38 Mathnerd314: and bittorrent peers don't let you access any resource on the internet 03:13:38 The prior knowledge is CAs. Discuss. 03:13:40 just one specific one 03:13:54 Gregor: tell him why it's slow and unreliable with better wording than i used :P 03:14:05 Don't care enough :P 03:14:51 elliott: everything can be optimized 03:14:57 what 03:14:58 no it can't 03:15:21 "Here's my incredibly slow, impractical and useless architecture based on sending data by forcing pigeons to poop in a certain way over the course of a year 03:15:25 ...but everything can be optimised!" 03:23:19 oh 03:23:21 almost forgot 03:23:24 boss fight/showdown? 03:23:54 * elliott punches copumpkin 03:24:10 * copumpkin challenges oerjan or j-invariant to a duel at midnight eastern 03:24:28 * elliott punches copumpkin 03:24:47 * oerjan rolls eyes 03:25:12 * copumpkin adds elliott to the duel 03:25:33 * elliott kills copumpkin 03:25:35 wow that was easy. 03:25:37 ouch 03:25:46 turns out headache are superpowers 03:26:22 -!- eglenn has joined. 03:27:10 -!- eglenn has left (?). 03:32:42 I just thought of an idea for a language that may be more difficult to program than malbolge. It's based on Go. 03:32:54 [Ok, that might be a slight exaggeration] 03:33:33 i blame copumpkin for this headache 03:33:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:33:45 :( 03:33:46 what'd I do? 03:34:15 I was hoping for someone to say that the Go language is easy 03:34:45 Sgeo: i was assuming you meant the game here... 03:34:54 i mean we're trying to be _esoteric_ here... 03:34:58 oerjan, I did. I was hoping people didn't realize 03:35:25 copumpkin: fuckin' faught me 03:35:27 fought 03:35:28 fucking 03:35:29 splelling 03:35:30 urgh 03:35:33 oerjan: ban everyone 03:35:34 thanks 03:35:37 :( 03:36:03 GIVING HEADACHES TO PESKY TEENAGERS MAY BE BANNABLE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED: 03:36:05 *. 03:36:13 yeah 03:36:16 and i blame: EVERYONE 03:36:36 oerjan: btw i'm goin gto murder you for that pesky remark, just as soon as i can do anything without excruciating pain 03:36:40 maybe i'll turn the lights off 03:36:55 Remove the ko rule. Take two Go bots. Have them play eachother. The programmer gives a starting board (arranges stones) such that the bots will play in the manner that the programmer wants. To do I/O, there are specific areas on the board that should be in specific shapes by specific colors 03:37:23 hm i don't like the dark 03:37:40 elliott, don't IRC with a headache? 03:37:45 elliott, take some medicine? 03:37:51 i don't see how not ircing would help 03:38:06 i could go and get some ibuprofen, but i'm not sure where it is, and downstairs is a long way away 03:38:15 the lower light seems to be helping a bit, i'll drink some more 03:41:31 >ENTERTAIN ME 03:42:00 > ENTERTAIN ME 03:42:00 Not in scope: data constructor `ENTERTAIN'Not in scope: data constructor `ME' 03:42:05 @data 03:42:06 Unknown command, try @list 03:42:08 @let-data 03:42:09 Unknown command, try @list 03:42:12 how do you do it in \bot again 03:42:23 did they add a way to do that? 03:42:25 @list let 03:42:25 eval provides: run let undefine 03:42:50 elliott, write some code for my esolang 03:43:01 That's not currently well-specified enough to code for! 03:43:17 Sgeo: no it actually sounds vaguely interesting, which doesn't fit my mental image of you :) 03:43:18 spec it up! 03:43:23 oerjan: well i dunno 03:43:29 oerjan: there's a way to do it for djinn isn't there? 03:43:30 @let data TestData = Testing1 | Testing2 03:43:30 Invalid declaration 03:43:34 copumpkin: you're the HASKELL GUY, you tell us 03:43:38 ? 03:43:56 what do you need? 03:44:03 I have no clue how one would go about actually using the language 03:44:10 No pun intended 03:44:15 doesn't @let actually add it to a module file? it wouldn't be too difficult to allow data too in there would it? 03:44:27 not sure 03:44:48 @help undefine 03:44:48 undefine. Reset evaluator local bindings 03:45:06 and @undefine actually deletes _all_ of them iirc 03:46:00 @undefine 03:46:03 MWAHAHAHAHAHA NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST 03:46:17 you shall all die because i am in pain 03:46:33 FUCK this hurts. 03:46:46 i would care less if i could figure out WHY 03:46:47 Sgeo: all i recall is that deciding which of two perfect players wins a Go game on an arbitrary-sized board is supposedly PSPACE-complete 03:47:01 yeah cuz gnugo is perfect :) 03:47:08 elliott: if it helps i just got some pain in my back 03:47:17 oerjan: :( 03:47:23 maybe this is my punishment for being happy before 03:47:28 I was assuming I'd have to go hunting for an appropriate bot. I should look into GnuGo 03:48:08 How to program in the language depends far more on the bot than the actual game itself 03:48:56 Sgeo: argh 03:48:56 gnugo is the standard "open" one 03:49:10 Sgeo: this would be far more elegant if you made the bots instead perfect players :) 03:49:19 (and also 100% more unimplementable with the current state of the art) 03:49:27 also easier to reason about, probably 03:52:05 What if the perfect strategy turns out to have some completely nutty seeming moves? 03:52:23 We could only guess at what a given program does 03:52:36 Well, that's rather interesting, come to think of it 03:52:46 It would also mean not writing a single line of code, though 03:52:58 that's a plus! 03:53:01 Which may be good, given my tendencies to put stuff down to look at the shiny 03:53:59 Easier to reason about is a minus, though 03:54:14 well i presume the PSPACE-completeness proof constructs game situations for which determining who wins _is_ determinable if you can solve the original problem 03:54:32 *positions 03:55:04 Sgeo: easier to reason about is a plus really, easy to reason about but impossible to actually use 03:55:07 is like the holy grail of esoterica 03:55:49 elliott, gravity does that 03:57:46 god my head hurts 03:57:51 The only real difference between PerfectPlayer-based and Gravity is that we can't know for certain that a given program does what we think it will do 03:58:05 um are you sure 03:58:08 like oerjan said it's pspace 03:58:20 i guess there is an algorithm? 03:58:48 But the algorithm may be something that makes no sense whatsoever to current Go thought 03:58:55 ummm 03:58:58 ima let oerjan take over here 03:59:04 while i curl up more into this bed 03:59:39 -!- azaq231 has joined. 03:59:54 -!- azaq231 has quit (Changing host). 03:59:54 -!- azaq231 has joined. 04:00:49 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:01:07 well to solve a pspace-problem it is completely permissible to search through all branches 04:01:26 right obviously there is an algorithm 04:01:28 just a very slow one 04:01:29 which means it's sort of obvious that Go should be in pspace 04:02:35 The definition of the language would ... no it wouldn't. I was thinking it would have to be different, but probably the programmer would fill most of the board. They'd have to do that for GnuGo-based anyway, right? 04:02:44 In order to reason about it effectively? 04:02:59 I was thinking more along the lines of a few stones on the board, for some reason 04:03:39 i'd guess a few stones would mean it is completely impossible for _us_ to determine who has the win 04:03:53 so we can obviously not program efficiently with it 04:04:15 i think ehat would help this headache 04:04:34 ehat? 04:06:45 heat 04:10:36 It's not "who has the win" that I had in mind. It's "These stones get placed here to do X" 04:10:37 -!- acetoline has changed nick to blow_me. 04:10:45 No thanks. 04:11:06 -!- elliott has set topic: bro_mine. 04:11:08 erm 04:11:11 that was meant to be a nick 04:11:31 you don't say 04:11:46 * Sgeo puts elliott to sleep 04:12:02 youaer'e all fuckers 04:12:11 elliott, feel better soon 04:12:13 except those who are blowers 04:12:16 i hate you all and you should all die :))))) 04:12:25 And sadly, at this point, I'm not a fucker 04:13:03 if only katie a.t. the alluded-to-female whose name is constantly elongated believed that orange juice caused love instead 04:13:05 wow that sentence sort of 04:13:06 trainwrecked 04:13:08 midway through 04:13:16 ...i don't even remember what it says at this point... 04:13:19 hi oerjan 04:13:51 hello 04:14:04 hiii 04:14:06 how are you 04:14:23 browsing reddit 04:14:31 wow people actually use fvwm 04:14:40 that's quite atonhing 04:14:50 http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png 04:14:52 fjf 04:14:53 lsdal 04:15:27 * oerjan vaguely thinks fvwm was the wm on his last office linux machine 04:15:43 * elliott installs xteddy 04:16:24 yay there's a teddy bear on my desktop 04:16:37 oh wow, the mouse cursor changes to a heart when you hover over it 04:16:40 xpedobear 04:16:40 this is advanced magic shit 04:18:07 this is what fvwm users are like http://www.xteddy.org/fvwmquiz.rbx 04:19:50 oerjan: people, aren't tehy crazy 04:19:59 thought so 04:20:49 tehy might 04:21:09 yeah 04:21:58 whatever tehy are 04:22:10 -!- quintopia has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 04:23:14 http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/f5fzt/what_books_should_i_read_to_get_up_to_speed_on/c1df2e9 this is the weirdest reddit post ever 04:23:18 first its like reasonable advice 04:23:21 and then it's like 04:23:27 here's how to do this thing you never asked about 04:23:29 in excruciating detail 04:23:31 then 04:23:33 EDIT 2 04:23:35 oh I forgot 04:23:39 here's even more instructions you didn't ask for 04:23:42 P.S. i'm not lying 04:23:51 read the source code of this playlist i wrote for this occasion! 04:23:53 you can see it's not malicious 04:23:54 and i am not bad 04:24:04 my head hurts 04:25:41 -!- quintopia has joined. 04:26:09 oerjan 04:26:24 oerjan: is there an analouge of fs=1:1:zipWith(+)fs(tail fs) for factoryalllle 04:26:31 that is my QkwestiO!N 04:26:34 !!11111 04:26:36 L0!L£ 04:27:01 wtf spelling? 04:27:29 oerjan: yeah jst accept it 04:27:33 > scanl1 (*) [1..] 04:27:33 [1,2,6,24,120,720,5040,40320,362880,3628800,39916800,479001600,6227020800,8... 04:27:35 it is the only thing that gives me pleasure in this kind of state 04:27:41 oh nice, i think i've seen that before 04:27:46 > scanl1 (*) [0..] 04:27:47 [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,... 04:27:51 > scanl1 (*) 0 [1..] 04:27:52 Couldn't match expected type `[t1] -> t' 04:27:52 against inferred type `[a]' 04:27:53 > scanl (*) 0 [1..] 04:27:54 [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,... 04:28:01 > scanl1 (*) 1 [0..] 04:28:03 Couldn't match expected type `[t1] -> t' 04:28:03 against inferred type `[a]' 04:28:06 > scanl (*) 1 [0..] 04:28:08 [1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,... 04:28:10 > scanl (*) 1 [1..] 04:28:11 [1,1,2,6,24,120,720,5040,40320,362880,3628800,39916800,479001600,6227020800... 04:28:14 yay 04:28:16 oerjan: yay! 04:28:30 > let fact = (scanl (*) 1 [1..])!! in fact 1000 04:28:31 : parse error on input `in' 04:28:36 > let fact = (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !!) in fact 1000 04:28:37 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398... 04:28:52 oerjan: YAEY 04:28:55 !!0101011 04:28:57 POOP 04:29:20 p00O0o)O)o0o0oo0oO)O)O))O)O)O)O)OO)))))))))))))PPPPPPpppppppq 04:30:17 > product [1..1000] 04:30:17 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398... 04:32:35 oerjan: but is the former fact not more efficient 04:32:37 since it memoises 04:33:07 -!- blow_me has changed nick to acetoline. 04:33:08 well if you look at more than one value... 04:33:36 oerjan: right, if you don't it's ofc equivalent 04:33:47 oerjan: but the memoising function is preferable for the memoising reason 04:33:57 oerjan: although it feels a bit upsettingly manual. 04:34:02 -!- acetoline has changed nick to blow_me. 04:34:02 hm wait 04:34:22 -!- blow_me has changed nick to acetoline. 04:34:30 :t let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2) in fib 04:34:32 forall t a. (Num a, Num t) => (t -> a) -> t -> a 04:34:46 oerjan: can we transform this into the list-based fib? 04:35:01 :t let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib (fibs!!)) [0..] in fibs 04:35:03 forall a. (Num a) => [a] 04:35:05 > let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib (fibs!!)) [0..] in fibs 04:35:06 [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946... 04:35:24 > let fib' _ 0 = 0; fib' _ 1 = 1; fib' me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib' fib) [0..]; fib = (fibs!!) in fib 1000 04:35:26 434665576869374564356885276750406258025646605173717804024817290895365554179... 04:35:30 oerjan: hooray! 04:35:39 that's really nice, i wonder what algorithms it is applicable to 04:35:44 and if you can package this up as a generic function 04:36:09 :t \f -> let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo 04:36:10 forall a b. (Num a, Enum a) => ((Int -> b) -> a -> b) -> Int -> b 04:36:21 @pl \f -> let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo 04:36:22 fst . fix . (`ap` snd) . (. fst) . (flip ((,) . (!!)) .) . flip flip [0..] . (map .) 04:36:25 oerjan: :D 04:36:30 i think i've seen something like it called memoize 04:36:40 oerjan: yeah but the point here is that the recursion is factored out 04:36:55 yes 04:37:14 @let memoFix :: ((Int -> a) -> Int -> a) -> (Int -> a); memoFix f = let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo 04:37:15 Defined. 04:37:44 > let fact' _ 0 = 1; fact' me n = n * fact' me (n-1); fact = memoFix fact' in fact 1000 04:37:46 0 04:37:53 oerjan: this is cool, too bad it only works for Ints without some hackery 04:37:58 ... 04:37:59 wait what 04:38:05 ohh 04:38:11 > let fact' _ 0 = 1; fact' me n = n * me (n-1); fact = memoFix fact' in fact 1000 04:38:13 Terminated 04:38:16 oerjan: :( 04:38:20 i guess it is not so efficient then? 04:38:37 it will retraverse the list whenever looking up stuff 04:39:04 the direct list version can optimize because it always knows it needs the previous two values 04:39:18 oerjan: :( 04:39:21 i'm sad 04:39:38 a Trie may be somewhat more efficient 04:39:47 oerjan: yeah but that starts getting heavy-duty and stuff 04:40:03 sad that generalising something simple results in a complexity change : 04:40:04 :/ 04:42:43 hm http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics says that _|_+1 must = _|_ 04:42:47 but that's not true with lazy naturals 04:43:25 "Not all Functions in Strict Languages are Strict 04:43:25 This section is wrong." 04:43:45 it's still rather hard to avoid _either_ _|_+1 = _|_ or 1+_|_ = _|_ 04:44:35 oerjan: you can do it with lub I think 04:45:19 lub [\Zero y -> y, \x Zero -> x, \(Succ x) y -> Succ (add x y), \x (Succ y) -> Succ (add x y)] 04:45:26 oerjan: but then lub is magical! :) 04:45:31 hm does \bot have lub 04:45:31 :t lub 04:45:33 Not in scope: `lub' 04:45:44 uses concurrency i assume 04:45:58 oerjan: yes, it's specified that your function must Obey Ze Rules 04:46:13 oerjan: i.e., if two cases could apply (i.e. one of them isn't _|_), then they have to produce equal values 04:46:18 :t lub 04:46:19 Not in scope: `lub' 04:46:24 oerjan: but also: 04:46:24 oerjan: Lub is an experiment in computing least upper information bounds on (partially defined) functional values. It provides a lub function that is consistent with the unamb operator but has a more liberal precondition. Where unamb requires its arguments to equal when neither is bottom, lub is able to synthesize a value from the partial information contained in both of its arguments. 04:46:30 it's a Conal thing :P 04:46:44 oerjan: lub was used in that blog post that defined arithmetic on "data Omega = W Omega" 04:46:52 where "zero = zero" and "succ = W" 04:47:02 Where unamb requires its arguments to equal when neither is bottom, lub is able to synthesize a value from the partial information contained in both of its arguments, which is useful with non-flat types. 04:47:05 oh that is cool 04:47:41 -!- calamari has joined. 04:49:34 oerjan: based on http://conal.net/blog/posts/merging-partial-values/ it seems 04:49:58 oerjan: hm what is that ~ he uses before the patterns? 04:50:15 oerjan: great news!! my headache disappeared 04:50:17 pikhq: party 04:50:56 * Sgeo dances for elliott 04:52:32 oerjan: *Main> add one bot 04:52:32 S ^CInterrupted. 04:52:32 *Main> add bot one 04:52:32 S ^CInterrupted. 04:52:34 oerjan: http://hpaste.org/43387/lazy_conats 04:52:38 elliott: hąateīinisiyô! 04:52:57 elliott: ~ is lazy matching 04:53:01 oerjan: how does that work 04:53:53 > case Nothing of ~(Just x) -> x; _ -> "hm..." 04:53:53 "*Exception: :(3,0)-(4,21): Irrefutable pattern failed for pat... 04:53:54 elliott: A lazy pattern match can't fail. 04:54:09 Well, it can, but that's _|_. 04:54:39 oerjan: phail :D 04:54:44 maybe you need ~_ 04:54:55 elliott: um that _was_ the intended effect 04:55:10 elliott: He was demonstrating that a failed lazy pattern match is _|_. 04:55:22 ah 04:55:24 it is not checked that the value _is_ a Just until it's actually used 04:55:28 oerjan: 04:55:29 *Main> mul two (add bot two) 04:55:29 S (S (S (S 04:55:29 i.e. 04:55:40 2*(_|_+2) = 4+_|_ 04:56:12 ok 04:57:28 @src -> &&& 04:57:28 Source not found. 04:57:32 oerjan: http://hpaste.org/43388/lazy_conats_annotation?pid=43388&lang_43388=Haskell 04:57:34 @src &&& 04:57:34 f &&& g = arr (\b -> (b,b)) >>> f *** g 04:57:34 oerjan: full source 04:57:45 @src &&& -> 04:57:45 Source not found. :( 04:57:51 grmbl 04:58:07 -!- augur has joined. 04:58:12 oerjan: also "mul (add bot one) inf" = inf 04:58:17 i.e. (_|_+1)*inf = inf 04:58:28 oerjan: although it piles on S's quite slowly :) 04:59:02 *Data.Lub> (⊥,False) ⊔ (True,⊥) 04:59:02 (True,False) 04:59:02 *Data.Lub> (⊥,(⊥,False)) ⊔ ((),(⊥,⊥)) ⊔ (⊥,(True,⊥)) 04:59:02 ((),(True,False)) 04:59:03 cool! 04:59:18 eek 04:59:46 * oerjan checks logs for unicode 04:59:59 oerjan: |_| is the symbol 05:00:04 oerjan: didn't you fix your client? :( 05:00:23 it only shows european alphabets 05:00:33 or thereabouts 05:00:35 oerjan: i could help you fix that but i doubt you're bothered :P 05:00:48 oerjan: hey you can implement a cond function that works like "cond _|_ x x = x" with lub! 05:00:57 huh 05:01:20 oerjan: condc x y = lubs [ if c then x else y, x, y ] 05:01:30 oerjan: cond c x y = lubs [ (if c then x else y), x, y ] 05:01:38 Your use of unamb in defining if' does not meet the required precondition (of information-compatible arguments). From a conversation on #haskell, I know you’ve come up with a really beautiful correct definition. I’d love to see you post the correct version for all to admire. 05:01:40 aw darn 05:01:44 i wonder what the proper solution is 05:02:30 -- | Multiplication optimized for either argument being zero or one, where 05:02:30 -- the other might be expensive/delayed. 05:02:30 ptimes :: (HasLub a, Num a) => a -> a -> a 05:02:30 ptimes = parCommute times 05:02:30 where 05:02:30 0 `times` _ = 0 05:02:32 1 `times` b = b 05:02:34 a `times` b = a*b 05:02:36 heh, lub as optimisation 05:03:31 elliott: ah x and y may not be compatible even if c is non-bottom 05:03:38 right 05:03:39 i guess that's the problem 05:03:53 oerjan: cond c x y = lubs [ (if c then x else y), if x == y then x else undefined ] 05:03:56 oerjan: but that won't work on [1..] ofc :) 05:04:04 -!- nddrylliog has quit (Quit: Page closed). 05:04:08 at least conal said luke (palmer) came up with a correct solution 05:04:10 alas, unposted 05:04:20 perhaps i could trawl the #haskell logs :) 05:06:34 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:08:49 oerjan: tell me to go in a minute 05:09:44 hm... 05:09:48 what 05:10:47 lubs [ if lubs [c, True] then x else y, if lubs [c, False] then y else x ] 05:10:56 just guessing... 05:11:07 oerjan: lubs [x,y] == lub x y 05:11:08 hmm 05:11:22 oerjan: that's awesome :) 05:11:43 actually can you use lubs on two incompatible values if you want the result to be bottom? 05:11:50 oerjan: eh? 05:11:55 otherwise i think there's a problem there 05:11:58 actually can you use lubs on two incompatible values if you want the result to be bottom? 05:11:59 rephrase? 05:12:25 rephrase: i don't think the above works if c is non-bottom 05:12:38 oerjan: oh right 05:12:46 the latter turns into True `lub` False, say 05:13:06 oerjan: (if c then x else y) `lub` lubs [ if lubs [c, True] then x else y, if lubs [c, False] then y else x ] 05:13:11 wild guess :P 05:13:13 no that's wrong 05:13:17 since if c=True and x is _|_ 05:13:20 it invokes the second bit 05:13:24 which violates the rules 05:14:16 yay my uclibc works 05:14:20 builds ii 05:15:46 elliott: go 05:15:52 oerjan: ok, just a min 05:15:55 * oerjan is a bit late 05:20:06 ok goodnight :) 05:20:28 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:38:21 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:38:48 -!- variable has joined. 05:41:11 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:41:50 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Bromine ----> | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 06:00:48 More odd games with routing: Now two interfaces share an IP address... 06:24:49 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:28:12 Some strange chess..... what if you are allowed to promote your pawns into pieces of opponent's color? 06:28:58 i vaguely recall seeing a chess problem based on that 06:29:11 * oerjan googles 06:29:54 It is on Wikipedia. 06:29:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke_chess_problem#Offbeat_interpretations_of_the_rules_of_chess 06:30:10 just found it 06:30:26 There is also the problem based on the rule, if you are allowed to castle with a rook that has just been added by promoting a pawn. 06:32:11 ... Castling with a rook that was just promoted from a pawn? 06:32:13 o.O' 06:32:58 it's in the same link 06:39:59 -!- cal153 has joined. 06:40:17 http://i.imgur.com/xDtDL.jpg :D 06:46:05 Oh come on 06:46:23 Someone should have used that in a tournament, if the rules of the time allowed it 06:48:09 Now it can be made a variant, with rules such as allowing to promote into opponent's pieces, even if you also make the rule that you are only allowed to promote to pieces which have already been lost. 06:52:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:11:26 Sgeo: they did 07:11:44 the puzzle was how they got fixed 07:48:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:50:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 08:08:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:19:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 09:08:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:08:56 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:25:37 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:27:45 -!- aloril_ has joined. 10:36:18 -!- evincar_ has joined. 10:36:23 -!- evincar_ has changed nick to evincar. 10:36:29 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:36:48 What's up in here these days? 10:38:41 Apparently not much. 10:42:29 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]). 10:47:14 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:47:29 -!- cheater00 has joined. 10:53:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:53:53 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:10:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:15:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 12:13:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:34:10 Wonder what the heck is going on with APNIC/IANA... 12:43:36 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:49:01 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:58:50 Perhaps the speculation is true and they're planning a big party, with those party hats and noise-makers and so on. 13:03:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:03:43 The New Scientist has used Kurzweil's estimate for the Singularity as fact. 13:04:03 Well, I suppose I shouldn't have been expecting standards that high anyway. 13:05:00 At least it isn't a 6 digit IPv6 address (from Fox universe)... :-) 13:05:45 They actually interviewed him and were uncritical of his whole life-extending crap. 13:05:52 (This was a few weeks ago.) 13:07:20 Yeah, most life extension and health stuff is crap. 13:12:02 It's so transparently obvious that Kurzweil is just desperately trying to hide from his own mortality by any means possible. 13:23:57 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:24:10 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:24:28 Wonder what APNIC figures for today will be... 13:24:55 I think those will appear in few hours... 13:29:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:37:57 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:40:08 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:44:54 -!- variable has joined. 13:45:07 variable! 14:06:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:08:14 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:08:33 -!- augur has joined. 14:09:08 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:09:52 -!- cheater- has joined. 14:28:43 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..). 14:29:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:36:14 Wow wrt Egypt. 14:37:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:46:08 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:46:11 hey 14:46:14 i need help 14:46:27 do you know of any 2-opcode, 0-parameter esolang? 14:52:16 Define "opcode". 14:52:26 There are languages with two syntactic elements, yes. 15:20:17 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:22:30 -!- cheater- has joined. 15:33:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:43:40 1.24 15:45:10 That's crazy low... 15:45:58 2 weeks ago it was 2.01, so 0.77 in 2 weeks... 15:51:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:54:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:56:18 Also, 3 blogposts in a row blaming wheat in Dr. Davis' blog... :-) 15:56:36 Blaming wheat for IPv4 depletion? 15:56:52 Blaming wheat for various health problems... 15:57:10 Also IPv4 depletion. 15:57:24 Farmers got IP address blocks as subsidies. 15:58:25 I'd have thought they taught you this in Farmingdale, Sgeo. 15:59:10 That rate is about 1.5 a month. APNIC will allocate about 4.80 in phases 1 and 2. That's sightly more than 3 months... Ouch. 15:59:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:00:56 Would mean APNIC depletion in May (of course, not a serious model, but I have seen estimates even more pessimistic than that). 16:01:20 I thought depletion was estimated to start in less than a month? 16:02:26 APNIC allocates those last blocks in few days at most. That date was about APNIC RIR depletion. 16:05:50 Hmm... Wonder how much has APNIC allocated in December and January? 16:10:30 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:10:44 38 927 872 addresses (2.32 blocks) 16:12:11 -!- pingveno has joined. 16:13:42 That would be about 1.2 blocks per month. Not quite as bad as 1.5 per month but that would still deplete the pool in about 4 months... 16:16:43 Note: The current predicted time to first RIR depletion is about 8 months... This would amount to exhaustion in half the time. 16:18:00 And note: No discontinuous run-on-the-bank after IANA depletion is assumed... 16:18:28 (the biggest reason for this: "We can't model panic.") 16:25:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:51:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:52:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:53:08 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:53:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:53:53 * Phantom_Hoover downloads the Windows version of a program because the Linux version crashes due to shared library problems. 16:53:58 This is just idiocy. 16:54:05 I'm a but upset about opendylan failing that nowww test 16:54:24 Huh? 16:54:26 better nowww than laterrr 16:54:56 Phantom_Hoover ? 16:55:03 Phantom_Hoover, try going to opendylan.org. Then try www.opendylan.org 16:59:16 variable, was that to the thing about shared library thing? 16:59:29 variable! 16:59:44 Sgeo, if that is not an open-source version of Bob Dylan I will be severely disappointed. 16:59:49 variable, I just do that sometimes. 17:00:13 Sgeo, I AM SEVERELY DISAPPOINTED 17:00:18 alright :-| 17:10:01 according to Slashdot, the Internet's been shut off in Egypt 17:10:06 and I haven't found a comment contradicting that yet 17:10:10 that's pretty shocking 17:12:53 *sigh* 17:13:04 The Inglip people just _had_ to make a wiki on Wikia 17:24:44 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:28:33 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-1350817/Le-Whaf-Now-theres-food-dont-eat-INHALE.html 17:29:01 I was _so excited_, then "Best of all, each breath (or whaf) contains hardly any calories so you can have as much as you like without gaining weight. 17:29:01 " 17:29:08 FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU 17:30:21 Phantom_Hoover 17:30:32 by two opcodes i probably meant syntatic elements, yes 17:30:36 so what are the languages 17:30:46 hmm, http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/01/egypt-leaves-the-internet.shtml is posted about the Egyptian internet loss by people who apparently know what they're doing 17:30:57 i'm trying to make a computer in my own game, 64pixels 17:31:31 and due to 2D limitations i can only have two "instructions" 17:31:56 i was thinking of this, for example: "] move right, skip next command if byte at pointer is 1" and "* flip bit" 17:32:37 hi siekierka 17:32:38 hi ais 17:32:46 Now that's fail... 17:32:53 ais523: i'm reading a story by von daeniken, it has a protagonist named ais 17:32:59 (the one Sgeo posted) 17:33:02 however ais is a woman.. 17:33:06 cheater-: probably coincidence 17:33:12 ais523: It's been everywhere in the "regular" news; also funny quote from an interview of the Renesys folks: "'We have enough Internet here [in the US] that we can have our own Internet,' he told the AP. 'If you cut it off, that leads to a philosophical question: Who got cut off from the Internet, us or the rest of the world?'" 17:33:46 you end up with two internets, obviously 17:33:55 the notion of an internet doesn't imply it's necessarily singular 17:34:06 -!- calamari has joined. 17:34:14 hi 17:34:15 it's just that if you have more than one, it's likely that they'll be connected, so you generally have one big Internet as a result 17:34:16 hi calamari 17:34:21 hey ais how's it going 17:34:29 Sgeo, FFS, It's the _Mail_. Its journalistic standards are second to all but, say, your average school magazine. 17:34:31 OK, although I'm a bit busy in real life 17:34:42 We're talking about multiple Internets. 17:34:46 Ah, yeah. Having at least one root server and servers for your ccTLD and most important gTLDs is enough... 17:35:29 Phantom_Hoover, I just want to know why they weren't wondering, if it's how people eat in the future, where they get what they need to survive from 17:35:43 Ilari: I think you can have an internet even without DNS 17:35:51 all you need is a global routing table that scans multiple networks 17:35:54 Sgeo, they don't think. I am surprised that they even write. 17:36:24 Gregor: remember that video you posted a long time ago with the bears crossing the street (cyriak cycles)? well my son remembered it and watched to watch it again, you seem to be dialed into the 5yr old mind. 17:36:38 Muahahahaha 17:36:53 **wanted to watch 17:37:33 ais523: OED subscribes to the "an internet; the Internet" theory: "internet, v. intr. Originally, esp. of networks: to be connected together. Later: to be connected to the Internet; to communicate using the Internet. Also trans.: to connect to the Internet or an internet." 17:37:49 Of course, having DNS helps... 17:37:55 Ilari: indeed 17:38:23 Gregor's loyal army of remote controlled five year olds 17:38:35 basically we are doomed 17:38:56 THEY ARE ARMED WITH PEN ROCKETS 17:39:14 And for the noun: "Originally (in form internet): a computer network consisting of or connecting a number of smaller networks, such as two or more local area networks connected by a shared communications protocol; spec. such a network (called ARPAnet) operated by the U.S. Defense Department. In later use (usu. the Internet): the global computer network (which evolved out of ARPAnet) providing a variety of information and communication facilities to its users, a 17:39:15 nd consisting of a loose confederation of interconnected networks which use standardized communication protocols; (also) the information available on this network." 17:39:27 Who needs Google when you have fizzie. 17:39:30 Hey, nutrional defiencies are already rampant (basically the only one that isn't deficient is calories, unless you are on diet)... :-) 17:40:11 Anyway, if you insist going by the first definition, you most likely have "the internet" now in Egypt too; I find it rather unlikely there wouldn't be at least two networks still connected to each other there. 17:41:18 Phantom_Hoover: IRC is better for gaining info than the Internet, in many cases 17:41:38 e.g. if I want to know about IPv4 depletion, asking Ilari is likely to give more up-to-the-minute and precise information than trying to find it on Google 17:42:03 fizzie: apparently there aren't, though; not only is the Internet cut off, but so are mobile phones 17:42:40 ais523: I'm pretty sure there's still at least one company that has two LANs in, say, two floors of a building, and a network in-between. 17:42:58 Syria may have been cut off as well. 17:43:14 fizzie: ah; although, don't companies normally have just the one LAN? 17:43:28 to me, internet really implies networks connected at the BGP level 17:43:44 I guess it again depends on how L you define the LAN. 17:43:54 Citation seems to be lacking for that, though. 17:44:32 At least some sort of a large university campus might have rather separate networks in there. 17:45:09 * oerjan subtly hints to ais523 that IRC is part of the Internet 17:45:23 oerjan, ISIDTID? 17:45:25 (Admittedly it's still geographically pretty local, assuming the operators have cut all their per-customer-dedicated-link routings.) 17:45:33 oerjan: I meant to say the Web 17:45:35 Sgeo: What? 17:45:40 and messed up due to the subject of conversation 17:45:44 I'm well aware of the distinction 17:45:45 Looks like the Syria thing is false. 17:45:59 oerjan, you don't know what ISIDTID means? 17:46:14 I Say I Do Therefore I Do 17:46:32 "About 140 results" and all those look pretty Agora-centric. 17:46:39 It's certainly not what I'd call common vocabulary. 17:47:12 I mean, it's a fallacy that's theoretically applicable anywhere, but generally only becomes relevant in nomics 17:47:14 And also, getting every nutrient and such one needs to survive from modern food is bit so and so... 17:50:07 i vaguely recall seeing a technical term for something similar 17:53:34 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:56:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance 17:56:59 hmm, I didn't realise the argument about whether those could be true or false had spread to Wikipedia too 17:59:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: I quit!). 18:00:05 ais523, surely it's obvious that they're falsE? 18:00:07 *false 18:00:34 *can be 18:01:25 Phantom_Hoover: read the article to see a summary of the arguments 18:26:12 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:26:40 -!- cheater- has joined. 18:29:47 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:30:30 Heh, with IPv6 enabled the FUnet (Finnish university network) file archive's HTTP frontend no longer works (well, or no-www fails, anyway): http://p.zem.fi/funet6 -- if you connect with v4, it redirects to www.; if you connect with v6, it ends up in an infinite redirect loop. 18:30:50 A bit of a shame, since www.nic.funet.fi works just fine with both ways of connecting. 18:31:35 I am so envious of you lot and your IPv6. 18:32:03 There's always 6to4. 18:32:34 I hear even some "consumer-grade" broadband router-boxes do 6to4 nowadays. 18:33:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6to4#Consumer_routers_with_6to4_support 18:33:47 Okay, not that many. 18:33:52 fizzie: and Windows Vista does Teredo, but it's off by default 18:37:06 Do they have a fancy anycast address for Teredo too, or is that a 6to4 exclusive? 18:38:11 FUnet has a 6to4 relay, I remember that's where my 192.88.99.1 connections went back when I was in the university student apartments. 18:38:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:41:44 And they did the thing that didn't exist back then: an automatic system-thingie that lets you delegate the reverse-DNS zone corresponding to your 6to4 /48 block. 18:42:16 Although it seems to be "still in a testing phase" since 2004. 18:45:47 Hmm... Kernel IPv6 routing table is quite WTF... 18:47:36 RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone. 18:48:33 haha 18:48:38 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:07:33 Isn't there those very small alcoholic drink bottles that only hold few centiliters? 19:09:11 Probably. 19:09:26 Makes sense for strong liquor. 19:16:01 < BestWorstAdvice> Hate being bothered with an Internet bill every month? Move to Egypt. 19:20:47 Ilari: Yes; there are 2cl, 3cl, 5cl sized bottles. 19:22:22 Huh. Katie A.T. has something going on in her life, where I have something similar going on in my life that isn't less bad than what's going on in hers. 19:22:25 That's a first 19:22:47 * Phantom_Hoover attempts to parse that. 19:26:48 I think you just broke PH. 19:27:07 Soon the magic smoke will come out. 19:32:23 Bad things in her life seem to correspond to things in my life that aren't as bad, or that shouldn't be. She, for example, has a very good reason that she doesn't drive. But this particular bad thing is just about as bad for me 19:45:19 -!- acetoline has joined. 19:46:38 Omelettes are delicious. Especially when you just figured out how to make them by thinking about it for a bit. 19:47:20 You can't make them without killing a few people, I've heard. (From the internet.) 19:47:48 Just eggs. 19:48:00 The mass murder is entirely optional. 19:48:12 But I'm pretty sure exceptionally delicious. 19:52:35 Yeah, stuff made from good ingredients tends to be much better than procesed crap... :-) 19:58:59 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:20:45 -!- elliott has joined. 20:21:00 zzo removed my damn logs from the topic again 20:21:19 -!- elliott has set topic: Bromine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 20:21:37 elliott, why? 20:21:44 no clue 20:21:55 (Inasmuch as zzo's actions can be comprehended by the relatively sane.) 20:24:14 -!- ais523 has set topic: Bromine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://example.com. 20:28:44 13:24:19 It's so transparently obvious that Kurzweil is just desperately trying to hide from his own mortality by any means possible. 20:28:44 hm is kurzweil even signed up for cryonics? 20:28:51 ais523: example.com: THE BEST LOGS 20:29:57 I didn't say it was a log 20:30:29 ais523: But they ARE. 20:30:53 hmm, we should just make a one-off channel, say the content of example.com, and then never use it again that day 20:31:42 example.com is a redirect now 20:32:02 * Now talking on #example.com 20:32:02 * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +n #example.com 20:32:02 * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +t #example.com 20:32:09 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:32:19 maybe I should have /nick IANA'd :) 20:33:25 IANAN = I Am Not A Number? 20:34:10 IANA = Internet Assigned Numbers Authority :P 20:34:34 ooh, example.com looks a lot funkier than it used to 20:34:42 Oh... nothing to do with number 6 then :-( 20:34:50 ais523: I just said, it's a redirect 20:34:51 impomatic: :) 20:34:57 heh oerjan doesn't know what ISIDTID means 20:34:59 OLDSCHOOL 20:35:03 I am a free variable 20:35:16 elliott: hmm, I like the implication that you /do/ need IANA's permission to use any domain except example.com and its relatives as examples 20:35:18 well, variable is, anyway 20:35:29 ais523: well, you basically do 20:35:34 ais523: oh, wait 20:35:35 as examples 20:35:39 never mind :) 20:35:42 I thought you mean, to use a domain name 20:35:50 as in 20:35:51 to register it 20:36:28 19:00:04 RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone. 20:36:28 :D 20:36:57 19:34:50 Huh. Katie A.T. has something going on in her life, where I have something similar going on in my life that isn't less bad than what's going on in hers. 20:36:57 19:34:54 That's a first 20:36:58 what 20:37:08 also *Katie A.T. the Alluded-To Female, her name was extended by forceful deed poll 20:37:15 is IPv4 exhausted yet? 20:37:37 are we there yet? 20:37:38 are we there yet? 20:37:38 are we there yet? 20:37:41 are we there yet? 20:37:50 I still maintain that KT-AT is the best. 20:38:04 Ktat, pronounced "ctat". 20:38:26 -!- elliott has left (?). 20:38:29 -!- elliott has joined. 20:38:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:38:56 does anyone know what you have to do to compile a gcc that will compile programs with another libc? hmm, I guess it might be able to do it without editing any spec files 20:39:06 Nope, not yet... 20:39:09 in particular, I want it to compile statically by default with uClibc 20:39:09 :-/ 20:39:20 I _think_ that you link with uClibc and its start files in the same manner as glibc 20:39:24 so presumably just using it should work 20:39:27 but the static-by-default thing? 20:40:31 ah, http://bent.latency.net/bent/git/gcc-3.4.6/spec may hold the clue 20:40:36 make BOOT_LDFLAGS="-static" bootstrap 20:41:01 hmm... http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=6132 20:41:10 don't think I need that patch, I'm going to use uClibc's libstdc++ 20:41:15 http://cxx.uclibc.org/ 20:41:26 that ++ scares me 20:42:17 ais523: it's libstd(c++), not (libstdc)++ 20:42:27 uClibc++ is just uClibc's version of it 20:42:31 elliott: indeed, the first is somehow scarier than the second 20:42:33 rather than GNU's which most people use 20:42:38 I think it ships with gcc, not glibc 20:42:38 unless you actually intend to compile C++ 20:42:48 ais523: err, why else would I get the library? 20:42:54 if not intending to compile C++? 20:42:55 that's why I was scared 20:42:59 I don't understand 20:43:08 I just naturally assumed that nobody sane would actually want to use C++ 20:43:11 ais523: because I'm a distributor, I have to compile other people's terrible software for the masses 20:43:16 ais523: for instance, WebKit 20:43:24 and thought it was more natural that you were using a C++ library for C by mistake, than actually compiling C++ 20:43:28 as such, I need a C++ compiler and a libstdc++ 20:43:28 heh 20:43:41 no, such is the plight of the distributor 20:45:57 I should try actually compiling gcc 20:45:59 that sounds, "fun" 20:46:04 I've done it! 20:46:07 with custom patches, indeed 20:46:14 ais523: I've done it too, but never cross-libc 20:46:28 I want to compile gcc statically with uClibc so that it compiles programs with uClibc 20:46:30 part of my build script runs the compilation halfway, then runs a Perl script over a generated Makefile to change it, then does the other half of the build 20:46:45 Vorpal: how stable is the gcc 4.5 series? 20:46:54 -!- Behold has joined. 20:47:06 ais523: heh, for what? 20:47:07 gcc-bf? 20:47:25 of course 20:49:10 How does gcc-bf work? 20:49:34 scarily 20:49:35 Support has been removed for the protoize and unprotoize utilities, obsoleted in GCC 4.4. 20:49:38 booooo! 20:49:51 ais523: say it with me 20:49:52 booooo! 20:50:08 hmm: If a header named in a #include directive is not found, the compiler exits immediately. This avoids a cascade of errors arising from declarations expected to be found in that header being missing. 20:50:10 pikhq, did you ever actually "release" that x86 BF superoptimisey compiler on the wiki? 20:50:39 Phantom_Hoover: pikhq's compiler isn't the best out there. 20:50:44 esotope has far superior optimisation. 20:50:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:50:51 just fyi 20:51:09 (diff) (hist) . . m Joke language list‎; 08:29 . . (+10) . . Kraftfeld (Talk | contribs) (added BitZ, a BF variant with more freedom in graphics design) 20:51:11 **sigh** 20:51:17 (1) not a joke language 20:51:20 (2) FUCKING BF VARIANTS FUCK 20:51:30 elliott, I thought he made it because esotope produces very optimised C, but that C was not compiled into very well-optimised C. 20:51:41 Phantom_Hoover: No, he made it because he was bored. 20:51:51 Phantom_Hoover: GCC and clang do wonders to esotope's C. 20:52:23 I noticed it, looked like another BF derivative 20:52:26 ISTR him saying that it did all kinds of stupid things when compiled. Something to do with pushing something to the stack and popping it far more often than necessary. 20:52:26 elliott: Also, that compiler outputs assembly. 20:52:27 I haven't looked at in detail, because 20:52:31 Phantom_Hoover: ^ 20:52:33 pikhq: indeed 20:52:42 pikhq, you said it did ELF as well! 20:52:43 Phantom_Hoover: Not that I know of. 20:52:43 Phantom_Hoover: I was complaining about GCC's output.\ 20:52:48 clang does a better job than gcc. 20:52:48 pikhq, oh. 20:52:52 on esotope code. 20:52:58 Phantom_Hoover: Also clang's, but to a lesser extent. 20:53:08 And esotope's high-level optimisations are far more relevant. 20:53:26 Esotope's insanely awesome high-level optimisations are far more relevant than my reasonable low-level ones. 20:53:58 Who votes that we make a Brainfuck derivative namespace on the wiki and sling all of the crap into there. 20:54:34 * pikhq can't even find the compiler any more. :( 20:56:25 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to SomeEnthusiast. 20:56:43 Oh, there it is. 20:58:22 19:00:04 RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone. -> nope: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol to your friend's house and get really surprised when your entire class shows up 20:58:35 Current guess for the X-day: Monday 31st... 20:59:10 (ie - it was an experimental thing never designed for real world use :-) ) 21:00:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Chlorine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://example.com. 21:01:52 ONCE I HIT FLUORINE DO I GO AROUND TO ASTATINE OR DO I START GOING DOWN 21:01:58 I HAVE NOT THOUGHT THIS THROUGH 21:02:40 Phantom_Hoover: wat 21:03:08 elliott, I decided that there was clearly a halogen theme going on and that I should continue it, without regard to the consequences. 21:03:16 Cursed by my own hubris! 21:03:27 I thought you were making a Minecraft joke :D 21:06:25 Phantom_Hoover: it's worth pointing out that even I have a BF derivative 21:06:26 two, in fact 21:06:38 but I think they're both interesting due to not obviously being TC 21:06:45 ais523, PREPARE FOR BRICKBRAINNESS 21:06:50 and not obviously BF-complete, either 21:06:58 huh, gcc is distributed in both monolithic and modular forms 21:06:59 how odd 21:07:31 it used to be only monolithic 21:07:43 but they started making it modular after clang 21:08:11 heh 21:08:19 I guess I just want gcc-core and gcc-g++, but I'll download the monolithic one 21:08:22 less of a headache to start with 21:08:31 Haha... "Yeah, I'm sure the fires in the street across from the Hilton and sound of gunshots that Al Jazeera is live streaming on the web right now is all CGI and sound effects too." 21:09:54 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:11:19 Ilari: context? 21:12:44 "Especially when Egyptian state media releases statements like this: '1628: Egyptian state TV channel al-Misriyah plays down protests, saying they are peaceful, and quotes a local official condemning Al Jazeera TV for "misinforming" the public.'" 21:13:10 ah, I see 21:13:25 I wonder how Al Jazeera got the video, if Egypt has locked down communication 21:13:43 Satellite links? 21:13:49 yep, that would make sense 21:14:05 Egypt has locked down domestic ISPs and is very much controlling domestic media. 21:14:20 Al Jazeera is out of Qatar. 21:14:42 why did nobody tell me that making a Linux distro is difficult? :) 21:15:01 journalists normally do have satellite uplinks 21:15:51 -!- SomeEnthusiast has changed nick to copumpkin. 21:17:42 * elliott idly wonders if gcc 3 was more stable than gcc 4 is 21:18:13 gcc only supports out of tree builds, right? 21:18:32 elliott: indeed 21:18:46 hmm, I wonder if it supports in-tree-subdirectory builds 21:18:53 probably not, autohell sucks at those 21:19:14 I wonder what gcc's NLS does 21:19:17 localise error messages? 21:19:49 "Well, now that we will have all 6 million IPv4's from #Egypt available again. Lets procrastinate #ipv6 implementation?" 21:20:06 X-D 21:20:24 only 6 million? 21:20:26 hmm, I wonder if gold works well with static linking 21:20:29 that joke's been made before in this channel 21:20:31 individual universities have more than that 21:22:05 does anyone know when gcc is going to start including c++ code? 21:22:24 quintopia: Hey, look, it's a day's worth! 21:24:46 hmm 21:24:50 --with-boot-ldflags=-static 21:24:57 that won't link with uclibc though 21:24:57 ugh 21:33:18 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:37:09 What joe? 21:37:12 joke? 21:38:31 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:38:49 -!- cheater- has joined. 21:38:59 cheater-, you just missed it in #haskell 21:39:07 -!- Behold has joined. 21:39:14 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 21:39:15 Sgeo: the flood? 22:08:56 -!- Behold has joined. 22:10:23 -!- amca has joined. 22:12:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:16:53 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:25:41 -!- amca has quit (Quit: Farewell). 22:26:26 ! 22:27:15 The only other people in here who are interested in TeXnicard are the people who never type anything on here anymore but are still on here. 22:27:39 we are interested in egypt tho 22:28:15 zzo38: you removed my logs from the topic :( 22:28:42 elliott: I don't think so. I think they are still there. 22:28:48 zzo38: I added them back. 22:28:51 quintopia: Can you write Egyptian hieroglyphics? 22:28:55 When you set the topic you took them out. 22:29:07 elliott: Oops maybe I made a mistake. 22:29:11 That's ok. 22:29:49 herobrine forgives you and forgets you 22:30:11 quintopia: Can you type computer program in Egyptian hieroglyphics? 22:31:27 What is herobrine? 22:32:41 Damnit Notch. 22:33:33 herobrine is notch's dead brother 22:33:36 zzo38: the logbot 22:33:44 that does the first set of logs in the topic 22:33:46 clog does the second set 22:33:50 ais523 is innocent in these matters. 22:33:53 zzo38: not currently. make it happen. 22:33:57 He does not know the true nature of Herobrine. 22:36:50 Vorpal: how stable is the gcc 4.5 series? <-- hm. Some bugs I know of 22:36:57 (Versus 4.4.) 22:37:11 elliott, about the same. Just different bugs than 4.4 22:37:17 Heh. 22:37:23 4.5 removed protoize/deprotoize though :( 22:37:44 elliott, I seen code that works in 4.4 and miscompiles in 4.5. And I seen the reverse of that too. 22:37:49 What is protoize/deprotoize? 22:37:55 zzo38: converts k&r/c89 prototypes 22:38:03 Vorpal: is the code itself broken? or is gcc? 22:38:28 ais523, in one case I'm fairly sure gcc is to blame. In the other case I have no clue. The other case works under gccc 4.5 22:38:48 ais523, I found a matching bug report for the one that broke with 4.5. Last I checked the bug still had no comments 22:38:56 and no I don't have the link handy 22:38:58 Vorpal: to be more precise, protoize is meant to convert a k&r C file to C89, and deprotoize does the opposite, by replacing function declarations 22:39:01 I just switched to clang 22:39:09 ais523, I know what protoize does 22:39:13 umm, zzo38: 22:39:16 ah 22:40:06 night → 22:40:54 Vorpal: at 10:53 pm? 22:41:21 hmm, I'm going to try buildroot; compiling gcc with uclibc manually seems like a pain 22:41:26 although i'm not sure buildroot can even do that 22:42:43 --with-boot-libs=LIBS Libraries for stage2 and later 22:42:43 --with-boot-ldflags=FLAGS Linker flags for stage2 and later 22:42:46 what's "libraries" here? 22:42:47 -L? 22:42:50 Vorpal? :p 22:43:16 elliott: isn't Vorpal in UTC+1? 22:43:22 Yes, yes :P 22:44:12 I wish I were a changeling so I wouldn't have to eat 22:44:13 >.> 22:45:25 Sgeo, what. 22:45:34 This would be the point where my dad and step-mom decide that I'm no longer able to distinguish fantasy and reality 22:47:05 [A long while ago, they were saying something. I was trying to convey the point that I might not be perfectly rational, and it makes no sense to ... I don't remember. Anyways, I said "I'm not a vulcan" and my dad apparently thought that I thought vulcans are real 22:47:07 ] 22:48:27 Sgeo, might I advise that you use the brick/brain transplant on them? 22:49:12 -!- BMG has joined. 22:49:57 The famed Vulcan Brick/Brain Transplant. 22:50:20 also, you know, learn to like eating. as crazy as they are, you don't need to be crazy too. 22:50:44 (yes, I know that's a hard thing to do. no, I'm not trying to trivialize it) 22:50:50 Theory: Sgeo's (step)parents are the actual worst cooks in the world. 22:50:56 In the most literal sense possible. 22:51:28 I'm the one who makes the pasta I eat at night 22:52:06 oh pasta. good choice. i could really go for a fresh light seafood pasta salad right now 22:52:15 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:52:38 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 22:52:38 -!- BMG has joined. 22:52:42 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 22:52:59 The famed Vulcan Brick/Brain Transplant. ← this is actually how they do the whole "logical" thing. 22:55:24 "It's pretty ridiculous, don't you think? The two of us being outsmarted by a chunk of crystal?" 22:55:55 Well, rouge cells in the body often seem to outsmart a whole lot of very intelligent people... 22:56:09 What. 22:56:22 Rogue? 22:56:28 i.e. cancer? 22:56:37 yes 22:56:37 the revolution is being televised. 22:56:42 Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE. 22:56:45 Sgeo, *except KT-AT 22:56:50 Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE. 22:56:50 VITAMIN C IS THE WAY TO GO 22:56:51 Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE. 22:56:52 Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE. 22:56:52 Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE. 22:56:53 Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE. 22:57:13 elliott, well, the use of the word "outsmart" in the context used in the episode is similar 22:57:19 Make sure you tell her that it is actually one of the few things that has been demonstrated to reyouthismootherate skin. 22:57:37 I want to `addquote [...] reyouthismootherate [...] 22:57:43 `addquote [...] reyouthismootherate [...] 22:58:04 HackEgo: wake up 22:58:04 283) [...] reyouthismootherate [...] 22:58:07 yay 22:58:08 `quote 22:58:09 181) You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here. 22:58:37 Sgeo, then spin her an elaborate yarn about the cosmetics companies keeping it down to increase costs, and the FDA being bribed into advising against it. 22:59:00 Under no circumstances mention that the actual reason it isn't used is because it is a fairly strong irritant. 22:59:35 Phantom_Hoover, why do you think I'm an asshole? 22:59:59 Sgeo, because I am an asshole and I have problems with dealing with the fact that other people think differently to me. 23:01:08 Sgeo: She thinks Vitamin C cures cancer, this is even more innocuous than mocking homeopaths. 23:01:39 elliott, I think he's asking me why I'd assume he'd do such a thing, which is a simple humour fail. 23:01:50 Phantom_Hoover: Hell, I approve of this plan :P 23:02:07 elliott, AS DO I 23:02:28 OTOH, I really can't see Sgeo forgoing a relationship to make a (hilarious) point. 23:04:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:04:33 http://nibble.develsec.org/hg/toys/file/d4f38103fa4e/passman Spot the security hole. 23:06:32 This game I received in the mail a few days ago, it comes with eleven copies of the rules. 23:06:32 Is it vim, or….? 23:06:52 Phantom_Hoover: It's the fact that the unencrypted file is there until the user quits vim. 23:07:05 hm 23:07:06 back 23:07:07 Admittedly, nobody can read it, but if you have someone with your user account... 23:07:13 (but without your GPG passphrase) 23:07:16 Then you're screwed. 23:07:25 elliott, "TMPFILE=~/.passmandb.$$" is an obvious issue in any case. Sure it is in the same user's dir 23:07:27 but still 23:07:37 Vorpal: why's that an issue? apart from what i mentioned? 23:08:29 elliott, well, the collision risk in theory of another program creating that file. For example a malicious exploit of another software. 23:08:32 Sure not likely 23:08:33 but still 23:08:39 you should never do temporary files that way 23:08:43 Right. 23:09:40 *groan* 23:09:49 Vorpal: Unfortunately I don't see a _good_ way to support saving with vim. 23:09:52 “The court also orders Hotz to "retrieve any Circumvention Devices or any information relating thereto which Hotz has previously delivered or communicated to the Defendants or any third parties." ” 23:09:52 I don't think it can save to stdout. 23:10:00 elliott, well why vim then 23:10:04 Yes, Geohotz is being ordered to remove data from the Internet. 23:10:05 pikhq, we've complained about that already. 23:10:09 elliott, maybe vim isn't the right tool for that jobe 23:10:10 Oh, right. 23:10:11 job* 23:10:17 Vorpal: For looking at and editing a file? 23:10:18 The jobe! 23:10:22 Vorpal: Emacs can't save to stdout either. 23:10:41 elliott, yeah but maybe this is the wrong solution for a password manager 23:10:45 elliott, that is what I'm saying 23:10:52 Vorpal: Why? 23:11:03 Because vim and Emacs have a simple deficiency that is annoying in more cases than just this? 23:11:15 elliott, and every other editor I know apart from ed possibly 23:11:45 elliott, workable suggestions I see so far: fuse encrypted file system, specialised program for the task. Patch the editor 23:12:06 elliott, heck you might be able to do this to the *scratch* buffer of emacs somehow 23:12:18 (1) Encrypted file system would work, but then you could just use vim directly. I don't think they support every-FS-operation passphrases like this does. 23:12:20 send it a pipe 23:12:22 Vorpal, you are saying that to edit an encrypted file you need to mount an encrypted FUSE filesystem? 23:12:40 Phantom_Hoover, not saying it is a good solution. 23:12:43 joe, at least, can save to /dev/stdout. 23:12:44 but one that would work 23:12:57 elliott, hm but doesn't that point to the terminal 23:13:01 elliott, where the user is editing 23:13:05 otherwise editing might be hard 23:13:10 Vorpal: You save-and-edit in one go. 23:13:18 Vorpal: You want it to read from stdin and save to stdout. 23:13:25 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 23:13:35 elliott, and where do you see the file in the editor so you can edit it? /dev/tty? 23:13:48 He is also ordered to remove any form of data storage with these "circumvention devices" to court custody. 23:13:50 Uhhh, you do realise that curses etc. don't look at stdin/stdout...? 23:14:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:14:02 elliott, actually I didn't know that. 23:14:05 I strongly suggest that he go and demand to be impounded. 23:14:06 elliott, guess it makes sense 23:14:10 elliott: sure? I thought curses did use stdin/stdout by default 23:14:12 AFAIK they use /dev/tty exclusively. 23:14:14 although you can point it anywhere 23:14:16 If they don't, well, that's a bug. 23:14:18 A bad bug. 23:14:30 elliott: I'm writing a program atm in which I direct ncurses into a pipe 23:14:40 ais523, what for? 23:14:52 ais523: most curses programs won't let you do that 23:14:57 since they do all sorts of "foo is a tty" checks 23:15:16 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f87p6/what_is_your_most_controversial_opinion/?sort=controversial 23:15:36 Vorpal: encoding ttyrecs from an unrelated format 23:15:45 I need to convert it into a sequence of vt100 codes 23:15:49 which is what ncurses does 23:15:52 "Children should be driven to have an intense fear of adults." "Why?" "So that they will behave themselves." 23:16:09 BEST. CHILDCARE. MISCONCEPTION. EVER. 23:16:17 ais523, :D 23:16:19 "That homosexuality is wrong, and is no more in-born than pedophilia." ;; this is hilarious because paedophilia /is/ born-in 23:16:23 or at least mostly 23:16:31 people actually implement that policy with their kids :/ 23:16:39 (and also because the morality of homosexuality has nothing to do with whether it's born-in or not, but whatever) 23:16:41 quintopia, yes, which is the scary part. 23:17:10 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f87p6/what_is_your_most_controversial_opinion/c1e3vuc?context=1 23:17:21 But yes, it pleases me that the controversial ones are all the bigoted ones. 23:17:31 It gives me hope for at least a subset of humanity. 23:17:40 "I believe a mother should be able to kill their baby without any legal repercussions." <-- I am fairly sure that 90% of the posts in this thread are trolls. 23:18:00 elliott, shh, that makes it less fun. 23:19:21 here's one of mine that is controversial but not bigoted: babies are not people. they do not earn their personhood for many many months. 23:20:10 quintopia, what do you define as the difference between "baby" and "person" in terms of rights, etc. 23:20:32 rights? babies have no more rights than pets. 23:20:46 That's stupid and you're stupid. (<-- my reasoned opinion) 23:21:03 but they can have "potential rights" in expectation of the day when they become people 23:21:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:21:30 "Potential rights". What. 23:21:51 if you want a controversial opinion: people should never have any responsibilities at all, except the ones they take on them through choice 23:22:02 people don't have a choice on whether to be born, thus they shouldn't be punished for it 23:22:16 -!- Behold has joined. 23:22:33 ais523: isn't another way to solve that to offer suicide as a respectable option at every point? 23:22:47 that way, people can avoid any responsibilities without repercussion, but society can stay mostly the same as it is 23:23:29 ais523, well, yes, but you do, inevitably, end up sponging off society at some point, and you need to make things break even otherwise you end up going to hell in a handbasket. 23:23:39 elliott: like the right to health insurance and life insurance etc. things that ensure they get the best shot at becoming people. 23:23:46 Phantom_Hoover: surely it's society's responsibility to not create people unless they can support them? 23:24:03 quintopia: OK, so is it ok if I keep my baby on a leash? 23:24:05 You know, like pets. 23:24:07 ais523, I agree on that front. 23:24:11 elliott, ... 23:24:14 elliott: yes 23:24:18 Plenty of people *do* do that. 23:24:27 Phantom_Hoover: I mean a literal leash. 24/7. 23:24:31 it's pretty common to avoid accidents with children near dangerous places like roads or trains 23:24:33 but only outdoors 23:24:38 elliott, how do you keep your pets. 23:24:51 Phantom_Hoover: I don't think it's illegal to keep a pet on a leash 24/7 23:25:01 and quintopia said babies have only the same rights as pets apart from, uh, "potential rights" 23:25:06 so it's a valid question 23:25:36 elliott: it probably /is/, actually 23:25:44 Well, you're perfectly entitled to keep your baby on a leash as things stand. 23:25:46 pets are rarely leashed indoors, doing so might lead to trouble 23:25:54 and apparently keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is a really bad thing to do 23:25:54 As far as I understand. 23:25:55 ais523: hmm, I can believe that, but it seems an odd thing to have a law for 23:25:58 unless it's forbidden by some generic law 23:26:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:26:07 elliott: generic animal cruelty laws, I think 23:26:10 Phantom_Hoover: I think that would count as child abuse, definitely 23:26:19 elliott, depends on what you use the leash for. 23:26:23 being confined to a single location for too long is bad for the health of pretty much anything but rabbits and hamsters 23:26:24 ais523: possibly, but if a pet is docile enough it might not even mind. 23:26:33 (and hamsters need a wheel or something like that to practice running in) 23:26:35 ais523: ha, rabbits are impossible to leash 23:26:38 I mean, if it's just decoration, it's hardly child abuse. 23:26:45 in general i feel like if your baby is lithe and fast enough to get away from you and not come back when you're outside, a leash is perfectly acceptable 23:26:47 elliott: hmm, I'm sure there's /some/ way 23:26:53 ais523: they drag you around for two miles and then wriggle out 23:27:00 elliott: rabbits? 23:27:02 yes 23:27:02 quintopia, yeah, that's exactly what a lot of people do. 23:27:07 do you know this from personal experience? 23:27:09 yes :) 23:27:15 Although it's more with toddlers than babies because human babies suck. 23:27:17 either it's too tight and they freak out and escape through the powers of magic, or they just hop out of it without thinking 23:27:25 hmm, that's the first time I've laughed in over 24 hours, I think 23:27:27 quintopia: I meant indoors. 23:27:43 elliott, my cat managed to get out of a collar somehow. 23:27:51 elliott: you would be stupid to do that. you can create fenced off areas indoors. 23:27:58 Even though it was tightly secured around his neck. 23:28:01 quintopia: plenty of parents are stupid, abusive, etc. 23:28:04 that's why babies have rights. 23:28:22 plenty of pet owners are abusive too 23:28:27 that's why pets have rights 23:28:29 quintopia: ok, here's a question: _why_ do babies not have rights in your view? 23:28:49 elliott, because they're stupid and annoying. 23:28:57 (NB: I am being facetious.) 23:29:21 they do have rights. as many rights as any other living non-person. 23:29:26 More seriously, they obviously don't qualify for full human rights because most human rights don't actually make very much sense in the context of babies. 23:29:36 quintopia: why do they not have the same rights as people? 23:29:44 what PH said 23:29:59 Phantom_Hoover: Eh... there are plenty of mentally retarded adults. 23:30:02 (In the medical sense.) 23:30:31 and i should hope those adults receive rights that make sense for them given their abilities 23:30:48 elliott, yes, and upholding the freedom of speech of someone who is incapable of communication is not a very pressing issue. 23:30:55 quintopia: give me an example of a people right that you wouldn't give to babbies 23:31:01 Phantom_Hoover: Certainly. But there is no reason to _deny_ them such. 23:31:04 Right to own property. 23:31:07 Right to marriage. 23:31:07 Phantom_Hoover: hmm, shouldn't they have a right to have people attempt to find a way to communicate with them? 23:31:08 marry 23:31:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:31:18 yi'll let PH argue for me 23:31:18 many people in comas did end up being able to communicate eventually 23:31:18 i don't believe marriage is a right 23:31:23 he will ninja me every time 23:31:29 elliott: what about the right of free association? 23:31:30 elliott, it is according to the universal declaration. 23:31:36 Phantom_Hoover: I don't agree. 23:31:37 elliott: the UN declaration says it is 23:31:41 oerjan: I don't agree. 23:31:59 marriage is a special case, really 23:32:10 elliott: what about the right of free association? 23:32:11 certainly 23:32:13 ais523: not really 23:32:15 relationships are 23:32:28 marriage is just a religious ritual that has become an ill-defined legal ritual 23:32:33 [[i think homosexuality is the same as pedophillia, zoophillia, necrophillia and the like. in all these cases, you cant help who or what youre attracted to. so why are the latter seen as disgusting? they are all "sexualities" as far as im concerned.]] 23:32:38 I love idiots like this. 23:32:53 god 23:32:57 wow 23:32:58 Civil unions make sense, marriage doesn't; I'm fine with people getting married, but IMO it should be a matter of church. 23:33:01 i hate them 23:33:04 They are actually incapable of seeing the difference between sex between two consenting adults and between adults and children, animals and corpses. 23:33:08 And the government doesn't need any part in it. 23:33:21 is necrophilia actually illegal, btw? 23:33:24 All the legal benefits that marriage grants should be available to pretty much any group of more than one person. 23:33:32 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:33:38 ais523, I'm not actually sure. 23:33:38 well, i don't really see anything immoral about necrophilia if the corpse consented before death 23:33:43 not that it makes a whole lot of sense 23:33:46 quintopia, necrophilia card! 23:33:46 unhealthy, likely. 23:33:56 Where is that image... 23:33:58 I don't see why the person's consent matters for necrophilia. 23:34:03 elliott: I do 23:34:03 it's not like there's a soul in that corpse. 23:34:18 elliott: it's a matter of respect for the person's friends and relations 23:34:18 many people before their death care about what happens to their corpse afterwards 23:34:28 hmm, should a person's corpse be considered one of their possessions, and not inherited? 23:34:29 elliott, well, yes, but good luck getting anyone else agreeing that corpses are lumps of meat with no special significance. 23:34:36 ais523: I don't care what they care about 23:34:59 ais523: would you let people set it up so that after they die, a vote is counted for a party they name every single election? 23:35:06 after all, they probably care about what happens to the world after they're gone 23:35:10 their family, etc. 23:35:11 elliott: no, but specifically because of "party" 23:35:12 Also, it's a bit dickish to ignore someone's wishes after they die; surely you support the idea of wills? 23:35:24 I think I vaguely agree with the idea in general, but not that implementation in particular 23:35:25 ais523: OK, assume there's a perfect way for anyone to express their political preferences as a formula 23:35:35 that can be given the election info to decide a vote perfectly 23:35:48 really, what would be more useful would be to give yet unborn people the right to vote retroactively 23:35:51 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, certainly, but I don't think your corpse should be considered a possession. 23:35:58 elliott, why, exactly? 23:36:00 that'd help stop people screwing up the world for future generations 23:36:05 but I can't think of any way to implement that at all 23:36:11 Phantom_Hoover: Burial is incredibly wasteful, for one. 23:36:15 Why is your corpse less yours than your house or your bank account? 23:36:25 elliott, if you can pay for the land, that's fine. 23:36:39 Phantom_Hoover: Shrug. I don't believe you own the air in your house. 23:36:49 elliott, ...what? 23:36:49 It's a bit of an arbitrary distinction. 23:36:57 Phantom_Hoover: That was an abortive attempt at trying to explain myself. 23:37:00 Ignore it. 23:37:14 ais523: with voting machines written in Feather, obviously 23:37:27 (I suppose you could own a bag of air, but if you let it diffuse into the atmosphere you've probably lost any right to it.) 23:37:31 elliott: even Feather can't do that 23:37:46 Phantom_Hoover: I kind of see corpses as part of your "environment" like air. 23:37:47 I mean, what it would do would be to speculatively let history play out to see what the votes would be 23:37:58 elliott, you can own your environment. 23:37:59 and then rewind history, apply the votes, and let it run again 23:38:10 Phantom_Hoover: Can you own the air in your house? (Assume the house is perfectly sealed.) 23:38:11 I say no. 23:38:20 elliott, I don't really see why not. 23:38:22 and Feather isn't /that/ integrated with the real world 23:38:31 And I don't see even then why your corpse shouldn't be yours. 23:38:34 ais523: OK, first, reimplement the universe in Feather ... 23:38:42 Phantom_Hoover: I don't really have much justification for it, tbh. 23:39:05 Oh joy: [[Rape is seriously overrated. If it's nonviolent, it's just unwanted sex. If a woman is unable to physically resist, she can comply and endure the sex, possibly even try to enjoy it (although that's a stretch). She can leave, take a morning-after pill, and notify the police. It would definitely be an aggravating and nerve-wracking situation, but not one that's "traumatic" or that will "ruin your life". 23:39:06 I especially hate it when rape is put on the same level as violent assault or murder, they are nowhere near on the same level in terms of the extent of damage and the permanence of it.]] 23:39:07 Why am I reading this thread. 23:39:17 i say yes. let's let people seal their houses perfectly and build their own algae gardens to purify it and never let in any bad air 23:39:20 Because I linked to it and bile fascination. 23:39:28 quintopia, YES 23:39:41 quintopia: yes, and then cut off their phone line so that they have no communication with the outside world 23:39:54 Then make health idiots pay for the uncontaminated air. 23:39:54 in the future, when pollution has destroyed the surface, it will be common :P 23:39:55 hell, the hole that the cable goes through probably has tiny gaps! 23:40:08 quintopia: An underground biodome is more likely :P 23:40:17 COMMUNISM 23:40:22 elliott, this is not Minecraft here. 23:40:27 elliott: yea probs, but my way would make a better movie 23:40:39 You can't hollow out a ten-metre cave over the course of an afternoon. 23:40:52 "reddit: now available in kazoo form 23:40:52 By popular demand, reddit kazoos are now available! We heard your thousands, nay, hundreds of calls for an official reddit kazoo. In fact, over the past few months it's become difficult to wade through the reddit feedback mailbox because it looks like this: 23:40:52 http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SMII3qiVCz8/TUHJGNApNLI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/0qQDe91RNSw/s1600/kazoofeedback.png 23:41:08 I had a kazoo once. 23:41:17 You can't hollow out a ten-metre cave over the course of an afternoon. 23:41:25 the earth is going to be uninhabitable over the course of an afternoon? 23:41:25 dayum 23:41:31 http://minecraftworldexplorer.com/index_sale.html 23:41:35 Old. 23:41:49 Of course, there's a thread at the top of r/Minecraft stating that Mojang should sue them. 23:42:09 They should stop using the logo and clarify that they're not official, but apart from that it's fine. 23:42:15 Although using the texture pack is iffy. 23:42:32 Hmm, their furnace texture is different, at least. 23:44:10 Seriously though... [[Rape is seriously overrated. If it's nonviolent, it's just unwanted sex. If a woman is unable to physically resist, she can comply and endure the sex, possibly even try to enjoy it (although that's a stretch). She can leave, take a morning-after pill, and notify the police. It would definitely be an aggravating and nerve-wracking situation, but not one that's "traumatic" or that will "ruin your life".]] 23:44:22 I am unable to comprehend the moronicness required to make that statement. 23:44:57 Phantom_Hoover: OH GOD THIS ONE IS THE WORST 23:45:10 I've probably read it, FWIW. 23:45:10 [[That Oasis > The Beatles]] 23:45:18 Yep. 23:45:22 ;__; 23:45:27 I want to report that comment 23:45:48 I want to brickbrain the person who posted it. 23:45:57 eh, there are a lot of bands better than the beatles. oasis are good competitors at least, though i can't say I'd say that 23:46:07 oasis are a terrible, terrible band. 23:46:13 coppro, ping 23:46:13 I don't even like the Beatles that much, but come on. 23:46:16 Oasis is just the worst. 23:46:22 uhhuh 23:46:30 * Phantom_Hoover has never heard one of their songs, but hates them on general principle. 23:46:30 Oh goody, they broke up. I wasn't aware. 23:46:34 *principles 23:49:39 elliott: "Rape is seriously overrated", eh? 23:49:45 That's pretty retarded. 23:50:01 Yeah, it totally doesn't live up to the hype. 23:50:25 pikhq: the sentence itself isn't retarded, because as Phantom_Hoover pointed out, it's ambiguous and the natural meaning isn't an insane opinion at all; but the paragraph itself is atrocious 23:50:28 haha. pretty retarded. good one. understatement is an underestimated form of humor 23:50:38 underrated too 23:53:28 Rape was better on vinyl. 23:53:34 no, there is no limit to my tastelessness, thank you for asking 23:54:48 rape? you mean rape me? the nirvana song? yeah probably was 23:55:42 Yes, Bashir, it's 100% A-OK to just talk about your patients medical stuff while identifying them by name 23:55:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:56:12 Bashir? 23:56:51 Dr. Julian Bashir. 23:56:57 I think Sgeo is going to ruin DS9 for me. 23:57:32 ais523: hmm, i have this shell script that's sourced by stuff on the system, but it could be installed into any one of a number of places 23:57:43 ais523: if it were just a program, I'd just use its name, and rely on $PATH 23:57:49 ais523: but it's not, it's something other shell scripts source 23:57:55 any ideas how to avoid making people specify the full path? 23:58:09 doesn't source respect $PATH? 23:58:21 if not, you could probably make it somehow 23:59:07 hmm, does it? 23:59:12 ais523: oh, it does 23:59:22 ais523: problem is, it would be useless to call this program from the command-line 23:59:25 so it's cluttering the path a little 23:59:39 that's a pretty weird problem you have 23:59:59 you need something that works exactly like $PATH except it doesn't work like $PATH at all