2011-01-01: 00:00:31 fizzie, ah 00:06:30 Happy New Year for REAL! 00:06:59 Of course, my view of the Edinburgh fireworks was completely spoilt by a church in the way. 00:07:39 I shall have to consult with the local branch of Al Qaeda. to have it removed. 00:07:54 NOTE TO MI5: I DO NOT REALLY INTEND TO DO THIS 00:08:22 al qaeda demolition services 00:08:39 NODE TO MI5: Phantom_Hoover JUST TOLD ME HE REALLY INTENDS TO DO THIS 00:08:42 PLEASE MONITOR THIS COMMUNICATION 00:08:51 TERRORIST CHILD PORNOGRAPHY BOMB BOMB 9/11 AMERICAN BASTARDS CAPITALISM 00:08:53 REVENGE 00:08:55 ALLAH 00:08:58 *NOTE 00:09:25 NOTE TO MI5: ELLIOTT IS A MENTAL PATIENT AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED 00:09:46 terrorist child pornography bombs are all the rage 00:20:44 NOTE TO MI5: HEY GUYS, I'M IN THE US 00:23:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:24:58 oooooooo 00:25:00 drunk 00:25:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:25:20 aaaaaaaaaa 00:25:21 sober 00:25:46 i just spoke with thomas from trontheim via phone 00:25:51 *d 00:25:54 and he's sooooo drunk 00:26:03 trondhein* 00:26:08 *m 00:26:09 trondheim* 00:26:18 shut up oerjan, i know 00:26:23 tromdein 00:30:37 ▜▘ ▄ ▄ ▌▗ ▄ ▗▘▛▖▗ ▖▖▐ ▚ ▗▖▗▖▖▖▝ ▄ ▟▖ ▗▖▗ ▖▖ ▟▖▌ ▝ ▗▖ 00:30:37 ▐ ▛▌▄▌▞▌▛▘ ▄▌ ▐ ▛ ▛▘▛ ▐ ▐ ▘▖▌ ▛ ▐ ▙▘▐ ▙ ▌▌▛ ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖ 00:30:37 ▀▘ ▘▘▀▘▝▘▝▘ ▀▘ ▘▘ ▝▘▘ ▘▘ ▀ ▝▘▘ ▝ ▌ ▘ ▘ ▝ ▘ ▘▘▘▝ ▀ ▝ 00:30:46 int main(int ac, char **av) 00:30:47 { 00:30:47 #define typedef 00:30:49 #define uint8_t a[printf("hello world\n")] 00:30:51 #include 00:30:52 } 00:30:55 ^ lol what 00:30:57 that is the most beautiful thing ever 00:31:03 fizzie: Translation? 00:31:36 "I made a (Perl) script for this." It's readable even in the logs if you just manually swomp your browser into an UTF-8 frenzy. 00:32:25 elliott, how does it work? 00:32:36 Phantom_Hoover: That C program? 00:32:55 Phantom_Hoover: The line in stdint.h looks like "typedef unsigned char uint8_t;". 00:33:06 Phantom_Hoover: Of course, depending on this is LOL NO, especially as .hs don't even have to be written in C technically. 00:33:12 fizzie: No, it isn't. 00:33:19 fizzie: I think some of my chars are non-monospaced. 00:33:33 Oh. Well, that's a shamey. 00:33:50 I guess the space might not be spaced like the Unicode block-drawing ones, but that's just weird. 00:34:06 I don't think there is a specific "block-drawing space". 00:34:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 00:34:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:49:46 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qbG0zi9ZeE (don't watch this :P) 00:52:12 #define uint8_t a[printf("hello world\n")] <--- ....... wow 00:52:29 Gregor: wow you look different 00:52:39 elliott: NORLY? :P 00:52:45 Ten years does a lot to a man :P 00:52:55 Esp. when they're the years of 14-24 00:52:56 Gregor: yeah like make him not suck at making music OH SNAP 00:53:02 :P 00:53:03 elliott, that depends a LOT on what exactly stdint.h does on that given system 00:53:03 Gregor: ok question why are you dressed all normally and shit 00:53:08 Gregor: where is the pink man 00:53:09 WHERE IS THE PINK 00:53:11 elliott, I mean, exactly how it is implemented 00:53:12 elliott: Ten years does a lot to a man :P 00:53:21 Gregor: I THOUGHT YOU WERE GREGOR FROM THE MOMENT YOU WERE BORN 00:53:22 sheesh 00:53:51 good thing i'm 15, i can totally preempt all my 24-year-old-self's objections to current me and reverse them, I'VE GOT IT ALL FIGURED OUT (<-- note: same words that probably went through Gregor's head at the time :P) 00:54:12 I have no objections to 14-yr-old me :P 00:54:31 He just happens to be a different person is all. 00:54:58 Gregor: EXCUSE ME, he is NOT wearing ANY pink at ALL? 00:55:12 Gregor: I mean HELLO? 00:55:15 Like I said, different person. 00:55:21 Gregor: WORST PERSON? 00:55:30 YOU ARE THE WORST PERSON 00:55:35 Gregor: Man, I just realised that talking to you instantly turns me into T-Rex. 00:55:43 I think that is because you are T-Rex. 00:56:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qbG0zi9ZeE (don't watch this :P) <-- quite nice 00:56:51 though you developed a lot since then 00:57:33 Gregor, where was that? 00:57:44 Vorpal: I have noooooooooo idea :P 00:57:49 (and seems you already liked to compose music that takes some effort to listen to) 00:58:58 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 00:59:20 elliott: you were right 00:59:30 i'm drunk as f*******\ 00:59:32 Gregor, how comes you didn't become a professional composer instead? 00:59:48 Vorpal: Because I'm a far better computer scientist. 01:00:05 i think Gregor does not make the best music 01:00:06 Gregor, then you must be really good at that! 01:00:10 soorry Gregor 01:00:17 Case in point :P 01:00:29 btw Pink Floyd did 01:00:39 nooga, you don't like classical I guess? 01:00:47 i like classical 01:01:00 i like almost every kind of music 01:01:08 hm, true I would not say Gregor's work is classical 01:01:16 rather, modernistic 01:01:26 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:01:32 Apparently I time travel. 01:01:33 WHO KNEW. 01:01:37 brb, have to walk to the gas station to buy cigs 01:01:41 Gregor, what 01:01:53 Gregor, well, neo-classical in /style/ 01:01:58 :P 01:02:02 I prefer "neo-romantic" 01:02:06 Gregor, I think defining it by when it was made is silly 01:02:52 Gregor, why: because it breaks down for that is often called "baroque music" (which is really not a single style) 01:03:17 also you get neo- a lot 01:03:43 Gregor, anyway your music is not really romantic 01:04:17 Gregor, too much dissonance for it. Maaaybe neo-"late romantic" 01:04:36 oerjan: still here 01:04:38 ? 01:06:24 at greg, i play electric guitar alot 01:06:39 and i can't play any. whole song 01:07:10 i just improvise in major and minor penatatonic scales 01:07:37 and septimal* eee i don't know if * this is good word in english 01:07:38 hm? 01:07:49 but my gr is playing piano as well 01:08:01 gf* 01:08:19 oerjan: ignore me, wait 30*60 s 01:09:53 food -> 01:13:34 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 01:14:44 nooga, half an hour? 01:14:50 oerjan, WHAT 01:14:53 oerjan, food now!? 01:15:05 of course 01:15:17 oerjan, ... lunch or just some snaks? 01:15:19 snaks* 01:15:22 snacks* 01:15:23 Vorpal: you know that oerjan operates on a 25-hour schedule 01:15:26 (like harry potter!*) 01:15:31 (*according to Yudkowsky canon) 01:15:34 i haven't eaten a proper meal for nearly six hours 01:15:42 oerjan, well and? 01:15:43 well, not so much 25-hour schedule 01:15:49 as oerjan's body is convinced that days last 25 hours 01:15:53 did have some snacks though 01:15:55 and, accordingly, sleeps at the same time every 25-hour day 01:16:07 elliott: my doctor thinks melatonin may be a good idea 01:16:07 i.e. one hour forwards in the blatantly incorrect 24-hour day system 01:16:22 oerjan: great to hear 01:16:30 elliott, my body thinks it is 25.5 hours, but I keep ending up resetting it all the time 01:16:43 well mostly all the time 01:16:44 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:17:20 oerjan: according to the highly reliable internets, btw, 1.5 mg is a good dose and lasts about an hour to kick in 01:17:23 just call me mr. doctor 01:17:23 Vorpal: well something is wrong with my resetting 01:17:35 most sites selling it i've seen recommend rather higher dosages 01:17:39 i rather suspect a doctor might too 01:17:42 oerjan, mine is failing atm, due to holidays 01:17:43 thanks pharma companies *tinfoil hat* :) 01:17:50 (for obvious reasons) 01:17:58 elliott, melatonin, what does that do now again 01:18:04 Vorpal: makes you sleep. 01:18:06 elliott, ah 01:18:48 elliott, wasn't there something similar-named that had something to do with getting brown when being in the sun? 01:18:52 (skin that is) 01:19:21 Vorpal: Yes. 01:19:29 But I've forgotten what it is :-P 01:19:37 elliott, same... 01:20:32 elliott, Vorpal, melanin. 01:20:44 elliott, wow, check the various boxes below http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin#External_links 01:20:47 that is absurd 01:20:51 Phantom_Hoover, ah thanks 01:21:01 Melatonin is in TiHKAL? X-D 01:21:18 elliott, I meant the boxes below that 01:21:44 I was just remarking. 01:21:57 Vorpal: TiHKAL is actually the second-last box, anyway. 01:22:10 http://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=tk&id=35 Anyone wanna try the recipe? :-P 01:22:15 elliott, what is tihkal? 01:22:27 i wonder if i'll end up buying it from the internet, it's rather expensive says my doctor and a bit of googling seems to imply it isn't covered by the norwegian medical expenses cap 01:23:00 Vorpal: tryptamines i have known and loved, sequel to PiHKAL. drug stuff. 01:23:16 oerjan: It's expensive? 01:23:23 oerjan: he's full of shit -- it's incredibly cheap on the interwebs at least 01:23:26 and that's from reputable sites 01:23:27 *she 01:23:32 erm sorry 01:24:17 elliott: well i assume this is from a norwegian pharmacy, and moreover she may be referring to the fact it's not subsidized 01:24:33 oerjan: right. i assume you guys have "herbal stores" and the likes there? 01:24:36 like holland and barrett 01:24:39 sell tons of supplements and crap 01:24:52 oerjan: you can either find it in those or the internet equivalents of those, for $nothing 01:25:07 failing even /that/ (which I doubt) you could import it from http://melatonin.com/ i guess, but the shipping is going to be non-zero 01:26:09 elliott: yes, there are herbal stores, including some pharmacies (i noticed one the other day advertising homeopathic remedies) 01:26:43 oerjan: yeah. there's no real point in getting it from a pharmacy if it's considered a health supplement, not a drug, which it is just about everywhere 01:26:47 otoh if melatonin is registered as a medical drug then it is unlikely to be legal for non-pharmacies to sell it here 01:27:00 oerjan: I doubt it is -- Wikipedia says it is in the UK and it's _not_ 01:27:09 you can find it on tons of (reputable enough) herbal online stores 01:27:14 *online herbal 01:27:18 (only a few very common drugs are allowed to sell in ordinary shops) 01:27:34 oerjan: well it's likely not considered a drug. 01:27:40 just a supplement. 01:27:40 (and even that is a relatively new change) 01:27:47 e.g. in america it's a "dietary supplement". 01:30:15 * oerjan googles 01:30:40 oerjan: can you make oklopol come back?? 01:30:47 i want to tell him that Phantom_Hoover totally got his 2d physics working 01:30:54 oerjan, go to Finland and make him come back. 01:30:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:31:02 elliott, oh, he knows about gravity. 01:31:07 Phantom_Hoover: well get the other parts working 01:31:17 oerjan: yes do it. actually do you have his phone number. just call him and yell at him. 01:31:20 elliott, angular momentum? 01:31:20 act drunk (or get drunk first) 01:31:26 Phantom_Hoover: LOCALISED PHYSICS DISTORTIONS 01:31:38 oerjan: say #ESOTERIC AND ABANDON AND 01:31:45 do the needful 01:31:55 Actually, that could slot nicely into my existing classes for masses. 01:32:09 Classes for masses. 01:32:11 <3 01:32:16 Best nomenclature EVER 01:32:22 Make angular-mass a subclass of point-mass, add some extra stuff. 01:32:25 Phantom_Hoover: Bear in mind that Amber doesn't have any classes, though :-P 01:32:33 elliott, no CLOS? 01:32:34 :( 01:32:46 Phantom_Hoover: Why not add an angular-stuff field to point-mass, that can be NULL? 01:32:53 (Substitute appropriate nothing-value for NULL.) 01:32:59 Phantom_Hoover: Or how about making all point-masses angular-masses? 01:33:17 elliott, because I'd like to be able to make bullets point-masses. 01:33:41 Phantom_Hoover: I'm tempted to say that bullets should bypass physics altogether and just have their movement hardcoded. 01:33:47 Since there could be thousands of them at any one time. 01:34:23 re 01:34:33 i have cigs and beer 01:34:42 ;et's continue 01:34:49 l* 01:34:51 elliott, but curve shots around planets! 01:35:54 Phantom_Hoover: Have you got polygon collision yet? 01:36:06 elliott, I've done basically nothing! 01:36:09 * oerjan does not have oklopol's phone number 01:36:23 oerjan, use your mathematician powers to calculate it! 01:36:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:36:55 Phantom_Hoover: Do polygon collision :P 01:37:24 elliott, I have not the STRENGTH 01:37:24 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 01:37:29 Phantom_Hoover: :< 01:37:30 Phantom_Hoover: :{ 01:37:32 Phantom_Hoover: pweeze 01:37:39 No. 01:37:43 googling suggests that melatonin requires a prescription in norway 01:38:10 Phantom_Hoover: ;( 01:38:39 elliott, QUITE 01:39:02 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:39:46 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:40:34 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:41:00 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 01:41:17 -!- elliott has joined. 01:43:26 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 01:44:34 oerjan, so ask the doctor then? 01:45:12 i did mention it 01:45:50 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:46:22 Phantom_Hoover: if you ever want to see Asteroids II out you better code polygon collision >:) 01:46:22 oerjan, yes I mean ask again if you need a prescription 01:46:33 elliott, it is too late 01:46:35 elliott, can't you do it? 01:46:47 Phantom_Hoover: tomorrow then! 01:46:48 Vorpal: i'm lazy 01:46:52 i already have to write a compiler for this 01:48:22 it seems like melatonin is falling a bit between the cracks in norway, simply by not being properly registered there. you can get it but it's more complicated and unsubsidized. 01:48:38 elliott, it is tomorrow already 01:48:42 oerjan: just import it from the us >:) 01:49:37 elliott, see note about prescription. I doubt importing it is legal then 01:49:56 oerjan: Hear that? The police are gonna get you for drug smuggling. 01:50:01 "...found with whole GRAMS of melatonin..." 01:50:37 ... 01:50:50 elliott, why do you always exaggerate everything 01:51:16 i guess it's unregistered because it's natural and therefore unpatentable... 01:51:16 Vorpal: I'm trying to demonstrate that importing melatonin being illegal is completely irrelevant as no non-ridiculous response could be taken. 01:51:43 Also, they'd be incriminating oerjan for importing something harmless that's ALREADY INSIDE HIS BODY. 01:52:21 elliott, by that logic DMT should be okay everywhere, since the human body naturally have traces of DMT 01:52:27 elliott: i suspect if i got a prescription first i could legally import it 01:52:34 Vorpal: I see no issue with that statement 01:52:37 well that would be sane, at least 01:52:55 elliott, hm 01:53:11 elliott, indeed. But that is not the case 01:53:17 Admittedly, importing poop would be kind of weird :P 01:53:18 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 01:53:28 Vorpal: No, but you can't get high off melatonin :P 01:55:27 elliott, well why is it in that tihkal then? 01:55:52 Vorpal: Who knows? The entry just talks about it being unclear whether it's effective for sleep or not, going by WP's link. 01:56:04 hm 01:56:05 It's not solely a book to get high off, unless I'm sorely mistaken :P 01:56:08 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:56:10 (INHALIN' PAPER) 01:56:20 elliott, :D 01:57:08 I mean, melatonin is a tryptamine with interesting properties, thus explaining its presence. 01:57:48 but does it involve lipase amylase and trypsin? 01:57:58 they gonna help with my digestion 01:59:08 WHY DOESN'T MY SHELL WORK 01:59:43 what about insulin, glucagon, coming from the islets of langerhans? 01:59:45 coppro: fix my shell ok 02:00:42 elliott: give me root ssh 02:00:52 nou 02:00:57 i think the mmap might be failing or something 02:04:20 wtf@@this 02:09:59 elliott: hey 02:10:09 hi augur 02:10:20 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/etw3g/problem_boole_comparisons_in_php/c1awit4 02:10:22 4u 02:10:37 augur: lol depends 02:10:41 it does! 02:10:53 it depends on what the other things are! 02:11:09 augur: I have a better table 02:11:12 augur: I will express it in html 02:11:12 :P 02:11:17 no! 02:11:23 use your css! 02:11:23 D: 02:11:27 it's a table, doofus 02:11:33 nooooooo ~#@_@#~ 02:11:37 yes i know im just being a dick 02:11:58 augur:
xy
xTrueFalse
yFalseTrue
02:12:03 the important point tho is the conversation with kamatsu 02:12:13 augur: tada, a perfect description of a (properly-implemented) equality function in Haskell! 02:12:17 assuming all Eq classes are done right that is 02:12:18 true ;) 02:12:24 technically x can == y 02:12:31 but only if x is indistinguishable from y /outside/ the module 02:12:32 it can indeed! 02:12:34 if x == y 02:12:36 so it's x == x from outside 02:12:36 :D 02:12:39 augur: shut up :) 02:12:41 ;D 02:12:43 augur: ok new table 02:12:46 x 02:12:48 x (x==x) 02:12:50 erm 02:12:53 x 02:12:53 lolol 02:12:55 y (x==y) 02:12:57 PERFECT TABLE 02:13:00 the convo with kamatsu is the important bit 02:13:26 augur: meh, mere misunderstanding :P 02:13:32 not really 02:13:43 he originally said it compared forall a. (Eq a) => a 02:13:46 which is also false 02:14:07 the point is that (==) only compares two things of the same type 02:14:25 and he said it could compare bool to string if you wanted 02:14:34 right 02:14:36 which is false, without some major magic 02:15:04 but god damn if that little ascii table didnt get me some karma 02:17:16 one thing i fucking love about haskell is (G)ADTs 02:17:28 i love that i can define new atomic values out of nothing 02:17:33 yes 02:17:39 and theres no possibility of misusing them as some other type 02:17:50 it's awesome 02:18:16 enums are nice and all, but the fact that they're usually just another name for an int is a problem 02:18:43 yeah 02:18:54 i mean, obviously you could do atomic values as ints and shit, but the type system enforces the opacity 02:18:56 and OO languages typically add too much baggage to ADTs 02:19:03 indeed 02:19:25 i mean, i like OO for some reasons, but GADTs and type classes are sexy 02:20:14 OO style for certain things is quite appealing. 02:20:27 yeah 02:20:35 list functions, for instance 02:20:54 hmm? 02:21:29 i much prefer xs { |x| x.odd? }.map { |x| x ** 2 } over map (**2) (filter odd xs) 02:21:43 er.. xs.filter { ... 02:22:10 tho i'd prefer if i could do xs.filter(odd?).map(**2) 02:22:15 augur: that's just concatenative :) 02:22:17 is that perl 6? 02:22:22 ruby 02:22:26 oh 02:22:38 elliott: no, i know, i just like the style of having Collection Method PRoc 02:22:44 rather than Method Proc Collection 02:22:58 augur: true. currying gets ugly though. 02:23:05 i know 02:23:07 admittedly you can say .filter(odd?) in a platonically perfect language 02:23:08 but still 02:23:08 i think in haskell theres a reverse apply isnt there? 02:23:09 it's less pure 02:23:12 like $ but backwards? 02:23:14 augur: sure, "flip" :P 02:23:19 but yeah, i think there is 02:23:23 elliott: APL? 02:23:25 yeah yeah but i think theres a built in flip ($) 02:23:29 lets call it $$ 02:23:44 and lets say its left associative 02:23:49 obviously: xs $$ filter odd $$ map (**2) 02:24:02 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 02:24:05 so haskell doesnt make this style impossible 02:24:13 coppro: what about APL? 02:24:18 which is all the more reason to fuckin love haskell 02:24:20 augur: nothing built in, maybe in a module 02:24:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:24:25 augur: haskell's type system is bad :) 02:24:29 elliott: whatever. its easily definable, anyway 02:24:31 elliott: bad how 02:25:10 elliott: you can probably do .filter(odd?).map(**2) in APL, except it would be 5 characters long 02:25:28 augur: too restricting 02:25:34 also, i think Perl 6 actually does allow .filter(odd?).map({* ** 2}) 02:25:36 coppro: i can probably do that in J 02:25:37 coppro: probably 6 02:25:42 coppro: don't need that {} do you? 02:25:43 if it doesn't, it certainly ought to 02:25:46 elliott: maybe not 02:25:47 elliott: restriction in what fashion? 02:25:52 .. restricting** 02:25:54 augur: compare to Coq's 02:25:58 i dont know coqs 02:25:59 elliott: I'm not up-to-date in Perl 6 02:26:00 (a middle-ground is probably nicest for actual programming) 02:26:03 augur: then i can't explain sry 02:26:05 its dependently typed tho isnt it? 02:26:07 yes 02:26:14 well there you go 02:26:19 there's more than that though 02:26:30 any type system that isnt itself a turing complete programming language is too restricted to you, isnt it? 02:26:30 :P 02:26:39 augur: um Coq's type system is sub-TC 02:26:41 and so is Coq itself 02:26:44 oh is it? 02:26:51 but i thought dependent types are TC 02:26:54 augur: yes, otherwise _|_ would prove any proposition 02:26:57 no 02:27:02 or is it only _some_ DT systems 02:27:18 augur: well with dependent types your type system basically becomes a special part of your value system 02:27:24 so if you use your TC language to do it, yes, it becomes TC 02:27:25 right 02:27:31 and you have nonterminating _types_, ho ho, good luck wit hthat 02:27:32 *with that 02:27:36 meh. anyway 02:27:41 Agda is also sub-TC unless you tell it not to be, when it becoems inconsistent 02:27:46 ive never gotten into the traditional theorem provers 02:27:59 coq is really nice. you'd like it 02:28:00 insert cock joke 02:28:20 i say it like caulk, so 02:28:35 or like the kidlings on the chans say cock: cawk 02:29:27 kidlings :D 02:29:47 coppro: well map **2 is just foo^2 02:30:14 lets see, surely we can figure this apl shit out 02:30:22 dunno how to filter odd though :) 02:30:27 augur: J not apl 02:30:33 same thing 02:30:37 no. 02:30:38 really not. 02:30:46 no, but thats not the point 02:30:56 well, is-odd in j is just 02:31:17 0=2|n 02:31:20 erm 02:31:22 0<2|n 02:31:28 but that's not the best way to filter by odd. 02:31:31 what 02:31:34 stop knowing j 02:31:49 oh wait foo^2 isn't actually map(^2) 02:31:50 so i get that 2|n is two divides n 02:31:51 you'd want hmm 02:31:55 but that should be boolean 02:31:59 foo(^"1)2 02:32:01 so whats the 0 augur: no, it's remainder 02:32:05 oh what 02:32:06 :| 02:32:08 0< is exactly what you'd expect 02:32:08 ridiculous 02:32:13 remainder, feh 02:32:18 ok 02:32:21 that makes sense then 02:32:33 it's actually called "residue" :) 02:32:35 does j have lambdas without lambda operators? 02:32:37 elliott, what is the difference between J and line noise? 02:32:41 augur: it has no lambda operator. so yes. 02:32:45 Vorpal: J is shorter. 02:32:47 elliott, :D 02:32:48 x3 02:32:52 Vorpal: alternatively 02:32:54 Vorpal: Line noise is readable 02:32:58 hah 02:32:59 *readable. 02:33:11 elliott, wasn't there some language that looked like line noise and you said was crazy 02:33:15 elliott: so does 2|n roughly equal \n -> 2 | n in some other language? 02:33:17 ursala 02:33:19 elliott, ah 02:33:21 elliott: is it actually foo^2, or do you need to do some fancy foo<<^2? 02:33:27 augur: 2|n is n mod 2 02:33:38 coppro: we want map ^2 right? 02:33:41 coppro: then it's foo^2 in j. 02:33:42 elliott: yeah 02:33:42 right but is it a lambda or is it a value? 02:33:45 elliott: oh in j 02:33:48 I was thinking Perl 6 02:33:56 coppro: who cares, we're doing j now 02:33:59 it has some syntax for turning a scalar operation into a vector one 02:34:04 elliott, sure about the spelling? google is unhelpful 02:34:05 augur: um is "n mod 2" a lambda? :) 02:34:07 i don't get you 02:34:15 cause in Functional JS you can do shit like xs.map("x*2") and itll convert "x*2" into the lambda \x -> x*2 02:34:15 elliott: will find example 02:34:24 Vorpal: http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ursala+language&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=i5IeTeb1EpO6hAf074i3Dg#hl=en&client=safari&pwst=1&rls=en&sa=X&ei=i5IeTaaIGIyIhQfnvIS3Dg&ved=0CBUQvgUoAA&q=ursala+language&nfpr=1&fp=733b49addeb556 02:34:32 because x is a variable that isnt bound 02:34:33 augur: you have to realise that in J there are no "lambdas" 02:34:43 augur: if you give an "incomplete" expression, it just becomes a box 02:34:45 ok so there are no such things at all 02:34:48 and you can apply boxes to things 02:34:48 ok 02:34:52 augur: there are, it just usurps them all :) 02:34:55 i dontknow shit about j, really 02:34:58 e.g., wait, lemme download j to demonstrate 02:35:00 whats a box 02:35:15 elliott, where in there? "Ursula Bellugi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" first hit, Lots of non-programming hits 02:35:17 oh oh OH THERE IS A J BETA OUT OMG 02:35:26 Vorpal: tell it you don't mean urusula. 02:35:28 see the top bar 02:35:29 *ursula 02:35:34 augur: it's a thing. 02:35:38 elliott, aha 02:35:42 :p 02:35:50 aint nothin but a j thang 02:35:58 stupid google 02:35:59 [[701 J Engine (JE - J Language implementation) changes are incremental and compatible. 02:35:59 701 J Front End (JFE) changes are revolutionary! 02:35:59 Previously the primary JFE was based on Jsoftware's proprietary WD (window driver). WD was built on Windows API and was refined and polished over more than 15 years. And for 10 years Unix users had a WD Java port. 02:36:00 701 abandons WD. There is risk as WD was a mature product central in so many ways to J. The replacements are as far from polished as only software version 1 can be. 02:36:02 With your patience and contributions we believe the rough will soon be polished and WD will be just a fond memory. One significant difference is that WD was a closed and proprietary system implemented in C++ and Java. The new JFE's are open and are implemented in J and based on open products and industry standards. 02:36:04 ]] 02:36:06 omg 02:36:08 this beta is my new girlfriend 02:36:11 elliott: why does ursala look like line noise? 02:36:16 elliott? girlfriend? hahaha 02:36:19 augur: ursala is terrible, do not discuss it 02:36:24 also stop laughing :| J LOVES ME 02:36:31 The first is JHS (J HTTP Server) where a browser is the front end. The browser is a powerful front end that has considerable advantages. Almost by definition it is familiar to all users and is the most completely cross platform. With html, css, ajax, and javascript it is a rich environment. It would be a mistake to continue to ignore the focus of resources and users on the browser as the window on the world. J701 lets your browser be 02:36:31 your window on J, as well as on everything else. 02:36:31 The second is JGTK which is based on the GTK+ portable library for creating graphical user interfaces. This is on the bleeding edge of what is possible and will allow the ultimate in power user tools and applications. 02:36:32 yay gtk 02:36:35 ...wait i'm on os x 02:36:36 elliott: no, it was the "girl" part 02:36:39 NAY GTK 02:36:49 augur: i'm not gay. sorry. :p 02:37:06 i know you're not. if you were it wouldnt be fun to joke about 02:37:32 oh jesus you're right about ursala 02:37:39 choices = ^(iota@r,~&l); leql@a^& ~&al?\&! ~&arh2fabt2RDfalrtPXPRT 02:37:48 augur: it's crazily-designed, too 02:37:51 ask ais about it sometime 02:37:56 augur, to me, it only looks slightly more noisy than J code :P 02:38:10 augur: i know you're not. if you were it wouldnt be fun to joke about 02:38:10 thats why elliott hates it 02:38:12 yes it would 02:38:14 aaaa 02:38:16 see for example: you 02:38:16 aaaaaa 02:38:18 aaaaa 02:38:19 aaaa 02:38:20 aaaa 02:38:22 aaa 02:38:23 aww elliott 02:38:23 nooga: stfu 02:38:23 <3 02:38:23 still drunk? 02:38:25 aa 02:38:27 aa 02:38:30 a 02:38:31 Vorpal: no he sobered up in 30 minutes 02:38:31 (@ nooga) 02:38:32 nooo 02:38:35 it's 2011 02:38:37 nooo 02:38:40 elliott, ... body doesn't work like that 02:38:41 but parody my own sexuality so 02:38:48 sexuality 02:38:50 my gf 02:38:52 aaaaaaa 02:38:53 aaaaa 02:38:54 Vorpal: then why ask 02:38:56 aaa 02:38:58 aa 02:39:01 a 02:39:02 i think nooga's gf just told him she's a lesbian 02:39:04 aa 02:39:06 aaa 02:39:08 aaaaa 02:39:11 elliott: no :D 02:39:11 nooga, shut up 02:39:13 elliott: wouldnt he be masturbating then? 02:39:24 :f 02:39:25 no 02:39:25 this channel, SO MATURE, you guys! 02:39:46 she told me that she's more kinki tht i thought she is 02:39:48 :D 02:39:49 elliott, yes when augur, you, and some 90% of the other people are here :P 02:39:56 elliott is SO MATURE 02:40:03 nooga: do tell 02:40:14 GUYS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT *MY* GIRLFRIEND, THAT IS, J 02:40:15 elliott, I mean, me, olsner, fizzie. And perhaps a handful of other. Then it is mature :P 02:40:25 olsner: hear that, Vorpal just called you mature 02:40:28 elliott: Java? 02:40:32 nooga: no, J, faggot 02:40:38 elliott, compared to you :P 02:40:39 J like Java 02:40:48 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ /Applications/j701/bin/jgtk.command ; exit; 02:40:48 |control error: script 02:40:48 | 3 :0'' 02:40:49 |[-7] /Applications/j701/addons/gui/gtk/gtk.ijs 02:40:51 WHAAAT ISSS THISSSSS 02:40:51 elliott: In Perl 6, @foo[bar] is syntactic sugar for @foo.[bar] 02:40:59 what 02:41:00 coppro: you're syntactic sugar lol 02:41:06 what is this shit 02:41:07 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air ... what a hostname 02:41:08 fuck perl 02:41:09 god damn 02:41:12 nooga: that's the default hostname :D 02:41:13 elliott, that error is... weird? 02:41:17 Vorpal: yep! 02:41:26 elliott: ive started coding in C# 02:41:27 elliott, it has way too much whitespace for J 02:41:31 nooga: i haven't figured out what to change it to yet, i kinda like Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air, it's just so silly 02:41:37 my prompts have never been longer 02:41:41 elliott: i know :D , my mac was Marcin gasperowicz's MacBook pro 02:41:50 G* 02:41:57 i am so glad i don't have a really long name 02:41:59 elliott, I hate when prompts wrap though 02:42:08 John-Jacob-Jingleheimer-Schmidts-MacBook-Air 02:42:09 elliott, and that is a risk for you 02:42:19 his name is my name toooo 02:42:23 elliott: better than Darryl-McAdamss-MacBook-Pro 02:42:28 augur: McAdamss hahahaha 02:42:30 :D 02:42:39 augur, is that a real example 02:42:41 ? 02:42:44 that's his name, so yes 02:42:47 wtf my ? key is glitchy 02:42:49 well no, but it would be if it were stupid enough to use my full name 02:42:52 augur: what happens if you're japanese, do you get a utf-8 hostname 02:42:58 or does it replace it all with dashes 02:43:04 -----------MacBook-Pro 02:43:08 sorry 02:43:09 elliott, it could punycode it? 02:43:14 ----------s-MacBook-Pro 02:43:17 dareru-makkuadamuzu-no-makkubukku-purou 02:43:23 augur: KAWAII 02:43:25 .. makkadamuzu* 02:43:31 oh yeah that error, so important 02:43:33 thx for correctation 02:43:35 it is! 02:43:41 elliott, I SUGGEST punycode! 02:43:43 actually i am that stupid 02:43:43 fuck me 02:43:47 darryl-mcadamss-macbook-pro:~ darryl$ 02:43:54 i should fix this shit 02:44:06 augur: set your hostname to "fag" 02:44:26 lol 02:44:35 I use mythical creatures. phoenix, dragon, pegasus and so on. 02:44:35 ok i think j is almost working 02:44:42 (also tux is grandfathered in) 02:44:51 tux is pretty mythical 02:44:53 yeah tux isn't mythical 02:44:54 haha snap 02:45:00 I SEE TUX ALL THE TIME 02:45:10 doesnt make him not mythical 02:45:21 i mean irl 02:45:22 duh 02:45:24 it just makes him ... THE STUFF OF LEGENDS 02:45:35 well you couldn't find tux on Middle earth :P 02:45:54 elliott: speaking of restrictive type systems, C#'s piss-poor type system pisses me off 02:46:04 i tried to define fold just for fun 02:46:06 cant do it 02:46:06 but you could find dragons, and while no phoenix or pegasus are recorded by Tolkin afaik they would fit right in, 02:46:08 type error 02:46:12 s/,$/./ 02:46:12 augur: fatg 02:46:30 sorry what 02:46:33 let's all get drunk and write PPC assembly 02:46:38 augur, couldn't you do it with a generic class? 02:46:42 GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY NOT 02:46:44 Vorpal: how do you mean 02:46:52 elliott: are you allowed to get drunk yet 02:46:56 have you ever BEEN drunk? 02:46:57 augur, something like... Folder or such? 02:47:05 augur: no, but i'm also not allowed to INFRINGE COPYRIGHT 02:47:08 augur, having one method. fold 02:47:09 which i do. 02:47:11 oh ok 02:47:18 augur, yes this is insane. But it might just work. 02:47:19 Vorpal: ITT: c# isn't java 02:47:31 augur: can you tell me why steve jobs put fn next to ctrl on the macbook keyboards 02:47:31 Vorpal: ehh.. maybe. i didnt use a generic class 02:47:34 augur: it is the stupidest thing ever 02:47:38 elliott, hm? C# has generic classes. 02:47:42 but it was because of a circular type of some sort 02:47:43 "It is an error to use this operator outside of a lol context; in other words it must be bound into a ** (slice) parameter rather than a * (slurpy) parameter." goddammit perl 6 02:47:49 elliott, I don't see why it *wouldn't* work 02:47:54 coppro: a lol context? :D 02:48:08 it is impossible to understand perl 6 without understanding it first 02:48:12 coppro, sure that isn't some INTERCAL-lolcode hybrid? 02:48:26 Vorpal: unfortunately 02:48:31 hah 02:48:44 Building, Bundling, and Integrating GTK+ on MacOSX is now consolidated at http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net, where you'll find up-to-date downloads, information and support. There is a forum, a mailing list, and a tracker there. The development of the quartz backend to GTK+ remains in the GTK+ project. 02:48:47 http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ jesus christ 02:48:50 it's like from fucking 2003 02:48:55 they're using i think panther's wallpaper 02:48:56 on leoprad 02:48:59 and those colours 02:49:00 *leopard 02:49:02 jesus christ 02:49:03 who made this site 02:49:13 Vorpal: the genericness wasnt at issue. i just defined it like.. public List FoldR { ... } 02:49:22 er, not List 02:49:26 augur, so what is the problem then? 02:49:34 the problem was it didnt work! :P 02:49:39 lemme do it again for posterity 02:49:39 augur, also is that a property!? 02:50:07 no its a stupid unthought-about method on a dummy object 02:50:08 hold on 02:50:11 augur,: public List FoldR(INSERT SOME SORT OF DELEGATE HERE, List list) { ... } 02:50:24 the delegate should take T somewhere 02:50:25 what 02:50:35 maybe. i just tried to implement it naively 02:50:37 augur, delegate. Like function pointers for C# 02:50:49 Vorpal: http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ guess when this side was created 02:50:49 anyway it shouldve worked if the type system could handle it 02:50:52 *site 02:51:00 i dont like the lack of polymorphism in the types tho. 02:51:03 you cant just do like 02:51:14 elliott, uh.. no clue 02:51:18 Vorpal: guess 02:51:25 based on its form + screenshots 02:51:28 form as in design 02:52:05 elliott, well it says 10.5 in the text. So fairly new. Screenshots don't help me, except that it has that 3D dock so fairly recent. Rest of design is like 8 year older 02:52:11 public X FoldR(..., Z zero, List xs) { ... } 02:52:16 as far as i know, anyway 02:52:18 Vorpal: the site was created sometime 2009 to 2010. 02:52:20 augur, well yes 02:52:21 maybe i should try that 02:52:23 Vorpal: and it was /designed/ like that. in 2009 to 2010. 02:52:25 augur, the ... would be the delegate 02:52:29 yeah 02:52:38 Vorpal: did I mention that the site it replaced was pretty sleek? 02:52:38 augur, but what is Z? 02:52:46 some type Z 02:52:49 augur, shouldn't Z and X be the same? 02:53:07 perl 6 does not have a sepc 02:53:08 *spec 02:53:09 fuck j 7 02:53:09 i suppose it depends on how your folding function works 02:53:11 coppro: yes it does 02:53:12 I don't care what they say 02:53:15 elliott: no 02:53:17 theres no reason it couldnt be a -> b -> b 02:53:24 coppro: it has a spec it has no formal spec 02:53:24 I could not write an implementation of Perl 6 from this "spec" 02:53:27 rtho yeah sure X 02:53:37 augur, but then FoldR should return Z not X 02:53:42 no? 02:53:49 true. im not thinking, obviously 02:54:02 also, these backwards type signatures are weird 02:54:08 then theres these JS ones 02:54:17 augur, you mean return type first? 02:54:19 yeah 02:54:25 function (x : X, y : Y) : Z 02:54:31 horrible 02:54:38 cluttersome 02:54:48 augur, is that... name : type ? 02:54:51 yeah 02:54:54 i'd much prefer like 02:55:00 augur, what the fracking helll 02:55:12 hell* 02:55:18 well it makes sense, since : is the mathlogic-notation for types 02:55:26 heh. j needs 32-bit java 02:55:26 hm 02:55:31 and you see that kind of shit in like Martin-Lof type theory 02:55:35 elliott, ... really? 02:55:41 yes. at least 602. 02:55:43 on os x. 02:55:47 elliott, how strange 02:55:54 but its just so cluttersome 02:55:54 Vorpal: not really. only the UI is 32-bit. 02:55:56 better to do like 02:55:59 it uses jni to talk to the engine 02:56:04 augur, I don't know Martin-Löf type theory (isn't that the proper name?) 02:56:14 type foo(X,Y) : Z ; function foo(x,y) { ... } 02:56:20 augur: coq is close to martin-lof type theory. 02:56:25 yeah, Martin-Lof is the formal logic behind dependent types 02:56:28 augur: type foo(X,Y) : Z ; function foo(x,y) { ... } 02:56:32 elliott, I'm pretty sure that is an ö not an o 02:56:34 that wouldn't work for dependent stuff really :) 02:56:37 Vorpal: NOBODY FUCKING CARES 02:56:39 elliott: no its not supposed to 02:56:46 (1 2 3)^2 02:56:46 1 4 9 02:56:46 elliott, at least write it as oe then 02:56:46 --J 02:56:48 rather than o 02:56:49 Vorpal: nobody 02:56:50 Vorpal: fucking 02:56:52 Vorpal: cares 02:56:54 elliott: im just trying to show how you might design the JS2 type signatures to factor out the inlined :'s 02:57:00 elliot: okay I see 02:57:00 to make it more haskellish 02:57:07 foo :: (X,Y) -> Z 02:57:10 or maybe "eliott"? 02:57:10 foo x y = ... 02:57:12 elliott, ^ 02:57:15 vs 02:57:16 2|(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) 02:57:16 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 02:57:17 elliott, I could start using either 02:57:20 type foo(X,Y) : Z 02:57:20 so the odd ones we want are the 1s here 02:57:23 function foo(x,y) { ... } 02:57:48 Elliot, I could write it this way even. 02:59:11 1 i.2|foo 02:59:12 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 02:59:15 so we want to select the 1s here from foo 02:59:28 we could do 02:59:29 (1 i.2|foo)*foo 02:59:29 0 2 0 4 0 6 0 02:59:31 and then ditch zeroes 02:59:33 but that would be cheating 02:59:35 since we'd ditch all zeroes 03:00:18 this is so hard 03:02:29 >(foo;1 i.2|foo) 03:02:29 1 2 3 0 4 5 6 7 03:02:29 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 03:02:33 hmm. 03:02:59 hm wait. 03:03:10 ok zero isn't odd ofc 03:03:42 foo*2|foo 03:03:42 1 0 3 0 0 5 0 7 03:03:45 so we just need to ditch zeroes 03:04:23 (foo*2|foo)^2 03:04:23 1 0 9 0 0 25 0 49 03:04:24 coppro: gettin' close 03:11:05 what are we trying to do here 03:11:24 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:12:09 -!- elliott has joined. 03:13:11 coppro: um .filter(odd?).map(**2) 03:13:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:14:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 03:14:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:31:27 -!- wareya_ has joined. 03:31:53 -!- wareya_ has quit (Client Quit). 03:33:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulliver's_Travels_(2010_film) WHYYYY 03:33:09 augur: why does this exist 03:33:20 because jackblack. 03:33:42 augur: no no no WHY 03:53:35 i just had a great conversation with my brother (language expert) 03:54:09 he told me that no matter who you are 03:54:28 you will adapt to the culture of a country you live in 03:54:33 pretty true 03:54:38 unless you're a racist asshole 03:54:43 or a conquering brit 03:54:49 then you make them adopt to you 03:54:49 :D 03:54:51 but there is this think 03:54:55 thing* 03:55:20 for example 03:55:29 i'm a muthafucking pole 03:55:35 for 23 years 03:56:03 and even if i speak perfect norsk and know norwegian culture in depth 03:56:39 i can't forget 23 years (early years) in poland 03:57:13 -!- subleq has joined. 03:57:15 nooga: are you in norway 03:57:16 and theese years will make me a different person from an average norwegian 03:57:27 nooga: are you in norway 03:57:31 no 03:57:34 i 03:57:35 okay 03:57:36 brb 03:57:36 i could be 03:57:40 nooga: i think you dont understand the meaning of "adapt" 03:57:43 bot i'm not 03:57:51 adapt means kill half of them rape the rest 03:57:55 i understand that 03:57:57 i learned this from columbus 03:58:04 brb 03:58:15 i could adapt urdu culture 03:58:33 but that does not make me urdu 03:59:21 one could just deny hid origin and become someone else 03:59:43 his* 04:00:50 beh 04:00:56 i think 04:02:32 even if i lived for 40 years in USA, and define myself as an american... i would stil bear this small part of 04:03:55 -!- subleq has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:04:04 23 years of Polish upbringing in myself 04:04:10 no matter what 04:05:17 besides of any patriotism 04:05:30 which i don't have tbh 04:05:55 ffffffffffffff.... 04:05:56 brb 04:09:58 goodnight 04:16:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:18:07 -!- j-invariant has joined. 04:23:01 augur 04:23:07 help me make a golfing language 04:23:32 no what 04:23:47 augur: a la golfscript 04:24:35 what 04:26:43 augur: surely you know golfscript 04:26:55 no 04:27:08 augur: http://golfscript.com/ 04:27:13 common on anagolf? 04:27:14 you know? 04:27:22 wtf is this 04:27:42 augur: a language ... 04:27:47 i got that 04:27:52 augur: um you know what code golf is right 04:28:50 augur: ? 04:29:47 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 04:30:14 no 04:30:25 I how ^op in category theory 04:30:41 hate* 04:36:12 whats ^op 04:37:36 opposites category 04:37:54 wtffffff 04:38:04 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ zcat By submitting a solution to this challenge, I acknowledge that I am a bad person for trying to climb up the rankings in this way.Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ 04:38:04 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ zcat <<<"$(cat z.Z)" 04:38:05 By submitting a solution to this challenge, I acknowledge that I am a bad person for trying to climb up the rankings in this way.(Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ 04:38:07 HOW CAN THOSE RESULTS DIFFER 04:38:25 aha! <<< appends a newline 04:45:33 -!- TLUL has joined. 05:00:38 !^@(@(*~(&$$*@`^%@*%#(&(*#)@&)*($^*!^~^($@~^( 05:01:01 ((*@@#^)!%~)#@^*(~#%@#@~)&^(*$&^$~!@@((^(`%!& 05:01:22 &``(%@)%~^*!~#^HAPPY NEW YEARS(~#!(!#)#%@)`*^ 05:01:45 %#!()!%*!*#~@!@$#`!)%`!@@!#`)#@%$&`%%^~%^@)$@ 05:01:58 TLUL: what. 05:02:08 &^%`!&%^#$@)@`*$@)*@(~%`%!*&!@@@!*$~&&&)$@@%( 05:02:31 new years where I am 05:02:54 what language is that 05:02:58 TLUL: i mean the noise. 05:03:08 Yeah, that script didn't really work. 05:03:42 I coded it with 2 minutes to spare though, so it's not really a high quality piece of JS, is it? 05:03:48 And what I thought was from TDWTF is actually from Planet Factor 05:03:49 Sgeo: Shut up about Factor! 05:03:51 meh 05:04:11 Lol, it could definitely go on TDWFT 05:04:23 I used Chrome's dev tools to inject a script into webchat 05:06:18 Sgeo: link lol. 05:06:31 http://www.rfc1149.net/blog/2011/01/01/send-yourself-a-greetings-email-from-me/ 05:06:57 Sgeo: why is that tdwtf 05:07:16 elliott, tbh, I saw "Blog post with code" in Google Reader, and made an assumption 05:07:51 Although it started out that way, as almost a personal discussion about automated emails, as though Alex was about to present something related to that 05:08:01 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:10:24 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: And me). 05:13:24 augur: you should /nick augurer 05:14:38 why 05:14:52 augur: cuz 05:16:15 Woo 05:16:31 Sale on AW citizenship renewal 05:16:31 Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds! 05:16:34 =P 05:16:46 man i was about to +1 shutup 05:16:47 then i realised 05:16:50 it was my genius all along 05:16:50 shutup: Shut up about shutting up! 05:16:55 i didn't look at the name :D 05:16:59 -!- p_q has joined. 05:19:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:19:55 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 05:21:16 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:28:14 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:48:04 elliott, there is now a world in Active Worlds named after me 05:48:04 Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds! 05:48:21 ActiveWorlds 05:48:27 Huh 05:48:54 Sgeo: Is it called SgeoNeverFuckingShutsUp? 05:48:58 Please say yes. 05:49:20 No 05:49:24 Sgeo: what then 05:49:30 Sgeo 05:50:06 Sgeo: what. 05:50:08 ok so you made it yes 05:50:26 oh activeworlds is actually one word? 05:50:43 elliott, I've seen it both ways 05:50:50 I think Active Worlds is more correct 05:50:50 Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds! 05:50:51 i'm an inclusive man 05:50:59 Sgeo: their site says ActiveWorlds 05:51:05 Huh. 05:51:17 * Sgeo shrugs 05:51:32 -!- shutup has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:51:46 -!- shutup has joined. 05:52:21 ActiveWorlds 05:52:21 Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds! 05:52:25 Active Worlds 05:52:26 Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds! 05:52:27 -!- augur_ has joined. 05:52:29 AlphaWorld 05:52:52 =P 05:53:25 augur_: are you egomt 05:53:26 geomerty 05:53:32 what 05:54:02 elliott, I'm Sacred Geometry! 05:54:12 ping me when my alt dies so i can de_ 05:54:20 augur_: de_ify 05:54:36 that too 05:54:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:54:41 o 05:54:43 augur_, ping 05:54:44 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 06:08:20 :-\ 06:08:53 -!- p_q has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:10:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:16:27 variable: :-/ 06:22:43 elliott, http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/SgJBNJ2ciJI/AAAAAAABAVQ/Mj9c7zh7YWY/s640/x1.jpg 06:23:08 scary. 06:23:10 sleep. 06:23:11 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:29:33 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 06:30:05 happy new decade @ all 06:46:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]). 06:53:31 -!- eboyjr has joined. 06:53:53 -!- eboyjr has left (?). 07:31:01 -!- darkbulb has joined. 07:31:19 hi everyone happy new year 07:31:50 is anyone else coherent at this late hour 07:33:01 I'm never coherent, but I'm not especially incoherent right now 07:34:33 well met Sego I am new here 07:36:16 -!- darkbulb has left (?). 07:37:05 I think I scare people :( 07:45:20 geez 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:49:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:21:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 09:21:28 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:25:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:26:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:13:26 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:45:58 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:50:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsvbuwn_j_8&fmt=18 10:51:18 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:09:02 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:10:54 -!- wareya has joined. 11:27:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:27:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 11:27:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:52:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:56:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 12:59:53 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 13:01:36 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:28:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:28:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 13:28:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:29:16 scared geometry 13:29:19 -!- Sasha has joined. 13:31:05 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:34:45 nooga, why is it scared? 13:44:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 13:48:25 it`s really quiet in here today.. even elliott is off *g 14:09:00 He's always off in the mornings. 14:09:10 And early afternoons. 14:26:05 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:45:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:50:30 -!- augur_ has joined. 14:52:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:02:17 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 15:08:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:16:34 -!- Behold has joined. 15:20:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:20:28 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:20:43 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 15:20:47 -!- Sasha has joined. 15:27:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:29:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:32:26 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 15:32:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 15:32:56 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*shutup@208.78.103.*. 15:33:04 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 15:33:08 * oerjan whistles innocently 15:41:21 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:41:34 -!- Sasha has joined. 15:47:33 -!- Behold has joined. 15:50:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:51:03 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 15:52:15 -!- quintopia has joined. 16:11:08 oerjan, POLICE BRUTALITY 16:11:21 SUBSTRATISM 16:13:30 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:13:57 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 16:15:44 BUT OF COURSE 16:18:04 -!- Behold has joined. 16:19:01 Behold! 16:19:12 actually, i don't know you... 16:19:24 neeeeeeeeeeever mind 16:21:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:21:38 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:27:14 oerjan, WHAT'S NEXT 16:27:22 ARE PROTOPLASMIC HOOVERS TO BE PURGED 16:28:32 -!- elliott has joined. 16:28:49 OF COURSE NOT. YOU MERELY HAVE TO WEAR THESE LITTLE BADGES... 16:31:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 16:31:30 hi nazi oerjan 16:32:05 elliott, shutup has been silenced once more in oerjan's purge! 16:32:18 fungot, get out! Get out now! 16:32:19 Phantom_Hoover: besides, i'd love to see if it were more flexible, they just confuse the issue is control. so stop sending me down this particular error message! 16:32:35 fungot, TRAITOR 16:32:36 Phantom_Hoover: from: rl date: fri, 31 jul 1992 05:18:17 edt subject: re: bent axel's what to do 16:47:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:00:09 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:01:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:09:10 -!- Behold has joined. 17:12:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:27:07 -!- j-invariant has joined. 17:36:51 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:37:23 -!- Sasha has joined. 17:48:09 oerjan! 17:48:14 DECLARATION OF WAR 17:48:56 Let it now be known that Hoover Heavy Industries is now at war with the brutal substratist autocracy of oerjan. 17:49:51 IT SEEMS THE BADGES HAVE BEEN INSUFFICIENT, THEN 17:50:04 WE SHALL HAVE TO IMPLEMENT A MORE _FINAL_ SOLUTION 17:50:36 oerjan, I challenge you to a DUEL! 17:50:41 CHOOSE YOUR WEAPON 17:50:59 Coding up shutup_oerjan.rb as we speak 17:50:59 I CHOOSE RICE PUDDING 17:51:05 OH GOD 17:51:06 Phantom_Hoover: give up 17:51:10 WHILE YOU STILL HAVE YOUR LIFE 17:51:24 elliott, I MUST DO THIS 17:51:27 oerjan, VERY WELL 17:51:33 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 17:52:41 what the heck are you talking about 17:53:05 i love it, but dont understand anything :) 17:53:19 * oerjan invades neutral hagb4rd just for the lulz 17:53:37 ALSO, TO PILLAGE HIS RICE FIELDS 17:53:58 go for it 17:54:32 this channel is unique, indeed 17:54:38 * oerjan realizes invading in the winter may have been a bad move 17:56:32 * oerjan fires a north korean bought missile filled with rice pudding at Phantom_Hoover 17:56:41 NO WONDER THOSE PEOPLE ARE STARVING 17:56:55 * hagb4rd goes get some popcorn 17:57:53 * oerjan notes north korean news praise the great destruction made by the missile 17:59:20 elliott, is the third monkey island game any good? 17:59:55 * oerjan is a little worried by the lack of independent confirmation. also by the fickleness of his f key 18:01:08 Vorpal: Yes. It pretty much ignores the second's ending, and it didn't have the original creator involved, but it's still good. 18:01:14 Vorpal: Only play it after the first two ... or you give up on them. 18:01:24 Vorpal: The fourth you should buy just so you can burn it. 18:01:39 elliott, I played the first, and I'm in the last chapter of the second 18:01:55 Vorpal: That's quick ... assuming you just started recently. 18:02:06 I can never beat the ending of the second. 18:02:21 Vorpal: Note that ScummVM is "slightly" slow with MI3. Not a problem on any vaguely modern machine of course. 18:02:38 It's all the high tech! (640x480x8!) 18:02:39 elliott, well, over a week ago. And so far I just needed to google twice when I got stuck 18:02:55 elliott, sempron 3300+? 18:03:29 Vorpal: It should do. You'll know after the opening cutscene and trying to play. 18:03:39 elliott, well, it isn't downloaded yet 18:03:44 Especially manoevring the cannon. 18:03:45 *spelling 18:03:45 oh wait, there it goes 18:03:54 elliott, what 18:04:04 Vorpal: You have to shoot some boats at the start. 18:04:06 (They don't move.) 18:04:14 afk 18:04:19 Vorpal: Failing that, just put ScummVM on your laptop and VNC/whatever in from a bigger screen? 18:04:38 elliott, hrrm. X forwarding? 18:04:40 Vorpal: Oh, BTW, click-hold to do actions with things in MI3. It's one of those circular interface things. 18:04:42 Gesture-esque. 18:04:51 Does X forwarding work for SDL or whatever? 18:04:56 Vorpal: (And right click is inventory.) 18:04:57 no fucking clue 18:05:13 elliott, circular interface as in NWN? 18:05:32 I haven't played NWN. 18:05:49 Vorpal: You hold it down and a little coin comes up; the middle is look, to the right is eat/talk, to the left is use. 18:05:57 (Yes, this is flexible enough to handle the whole game.) 18:06:09 elliott, ah hm 18:06:12 Oh, and single-clicking stuff in the inventory lets you combine it with other stuff unless I'm vastly misremembering. 18:06:21 Vorpal: I think there's some shortcut to do "the default thing" with an object; double-clicking? 18:06:24 But whatever. 18:06:32 elliott, http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zoecchi.com/Images/Games/NWN2KOTOR2/NWNradial.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zoecchi.com/_include/obsidian2.asp&usg=__KK4evUDhrVGHPRPbOInkSuc9eSI=&h=300&w=300&sz=33&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=qhz6BBuEs1n5xM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=121&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNWN%2Bmenu%2Binterface%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DcIR%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.moz 18:06:32 illa:en-US:official%26biw%3D1508%26bih%3D679%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=280&ei=_2wfTaq_NY3usgba6OXnDA&oei=_2wfTaq_NY3usgba6OXnDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0&tx=92&ty=52 18:06:35 aiee! 18:06:39 that was one long url 18:06:39 X-D 18:06:49 elliott, anyway, cut and paste it 18:06:52 Vorpal: Yes, like that, except that it's only three and one's in the middle. 18:06:55 And no, the first line worked fine. 18:06:58 right 18:07:01 elliott, huh 18:07:43 elliott, anyway if there are only 3, how can it be circular then? 18:07:55 Vorpal: It appears in a circular coin :p 18:08:04 elliott, also see those arrows at some points? They open to circular sub-menus 18:08:11 Right, none of that here. 18:08:25 elliott, for the spell menu it feels like ad-infinum in NWN 18:08:32 Vorpal: http://quick.mixnmojo.com/screenshots/CmiLauncherCoin1.jpg This is the coin. 18:09:06 -!- augur_ has joined. 18:09:08 elliott, aiee, please tell me it uses an antialiased edge in the game? 18:09:26 Vorpal: It's too low resolution to look that ugly. :p 18:09:37 Dunno if it's antialiased, but it doesn't look jaggedy. 18:09:50 elliott, the one you linked looks jagged 18:09:59 Yes, it's higher-resolution. I Think it's from the launcher. 18:10:00 *think 18:10:25 Here's two ACTUAL SCREENSHOTS 18:10:27 http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xeu4Tx9GGtk/TM8sd_TKYaI/AAAAAAAAEFM/jvmKMR4mAVw/s640/Curse+of+Monkey+Island+Screenshot.jpg 18:10:28 http://firsthour.net/screenshots/curse-of-monkey-island/curse-of-monkey-island-guybrush-barbershop.jpg 18:10:31 No coin in those though. 18:11:02 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:11:16 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans oerjan --==\#/ 18:12:14 Vorpal: The fourth game, by the way, abandoned the nice mouse-based UI for both 3D keyboard-based movement, and KEYBOARD-BASED ACTION-TAKING THAT CHANGED AS YOU LOOKED AROUND. 18:12:15 http://www.activewin.com/reviews/software/games/m/images/mi4_019.jpg 18:12:16 elliott, they both looks jpged 18:12:29 If the game actually had any plot it'd be a shame; as it is, it's good because it keeps anyone from playing it. 18:13:09 Vorpal: So where are you in number two? I forget the division of chapters exactly. 18:13:24 elliott, just at start of last chapter. Dinky island 18:13:53 Vorpal: If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, what colour is the tree? 18:13:55 44MMonkey Island 1 - The Secret of Monkey Island 18:13:55 203MMonkey Island 2 - LeChuck's Revenge 18:13:55 1,1GCurse 18:13:56 hah 18:14:11 Vorpal: You can actually get him to agree, BTW. 18:14:14 Just keep clicking answers. 18:14:15 elliott, ... not happened yet? 18:14:20 Vorpal: Oh. Talk to Herman Toothrot. 18:14:33 elliott, well I took a pause right here and now 18:14:49 Fair enough. 18:14:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:15:01 Vorpal: The final chapter is quite short though. 18:15:02 elliott, my head hurts if I have headphones on for more than an hour or two in a single stretch 18:15:05 Well, compared to the others. 18:15:14 elliott, so taking at least half an hour pause 18:15:17 Now I want to play, aargh. 18:15:27 Vorpal: Headphones, for that authentic Adlib sound. 18:16:07 elliott, MT-32 dude 18:16:12 Vorpal: For Monkey Island 2? 18:16:13 Gross. 18:16:15 Adlib sounds better. 18:16:29 You've been missing out. 18:16:59 elliott, well actually my computer can't do either very well, I'm using pre-generated ogg (the iMUSE switchover works perfectly with it somehow) 18:17:13 Vorpal: What. Adlib emulation requires, like, a 386. 18:17:24 elliott, WHO KNOWS! 18:17:24 Anything can do it. 18:17:44 elliott, does the third game use iMUSE blending? 18:17:56 Vorpal: It does but it's more subtle. 18:18:03 elliott, oh? 18:18:16 Vorpal: Yes. Also the tracks are pre-rendered CD audio. 18:18:38 elliott, you will get seeking then 18:18:45 Vorpal: Not with oggs. :p 18:18:52 elliott, well duh 18:18:56 elliott, but in the original 18:19:12 Know of any .iso rips of the third? This computer lacks an ... optical ... drive ... 18:22:37 elliott, eh 18:22:54 elliott, try tpb, for the authentic .rar rip 18:23:07 Vorpal: Every time my brain hears compressed audio, I go unconscious. 18:23:18 I bought the fucking CDs, why isn't there an official, free, legal download I can get. 18:23:19 elliott, .... .... 18:23:27 elliott, you have another computer 18:23:28 OH RIGHT I FORGOT I PAID FOR A TINY PIECE OF PLASTIC 18:23:30 rip it there 18:23:31 Vorpal: It has no optical drive. 18:23:37 elliott, your fucking imac 18:23:47 Vorpal: I'm not getting that out of the box for this. 18:23:51 Also I have no idea where the CD is. 18:24:48 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 18:26:06 elliott, ah 18:26:14 elliott, well I saw no ISO rip no 18:26:39 http://torrentz.eu/a8b84d6f65d843ba2754d84093df88ecff049f49 18:26:47 Vorpal: First thing on torrentz :P 18:26:48 elliott, only looked at tpb 18:27:00 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:27:09 Vorpal: Why would you even look at tpb? It barely has anything and the tracker rarely if ever works ... 18:27:38 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:30:20 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/LiquidThreads_sample_screenshot.jpg 18:30:38 dear current: 240 KiB/s is insufficient speed!!! go faster 18:30:40 Am I the only one who thinks this is hideous? 18:30:55 Phantom_Hoover: Is that for ... Talk pages? 18:31:00 elliott, yes. 18:31:08 Phantom_Hoover: Is that coming to Wikipedia. 18:31:16 It means that they're also no longer editable with the standard MW tools. 18:31:22 elliott, possibly. At some point. 18:31:23 400 KiB/s over wifi, fuck yeah. 18:31:51 Phantom_Hoover: I'm going to try to forget that and also leave the world before that can happen simultaneously. brb autoerotic asphyxiation 18:32:02 (The BEST worst way to die!) 18:33:48 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:35:17 elliott, please list the things that are awful about it, so that I may have a reference. 18:35:32 Phantom_Hoover: Try "EVERYTHING" 18:36:37 elliott, there's even more obnoxiousness that doesn't show up there. 18:36:52 Oh joy. 18:36:53 Like what. 18:36:55 For instance, it has a "you have new messages" link right at the top of the screen. 18:37:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 18:37:34 Which a) counts *any messages on a page you edit* as new ones for you and b) doesn't reset until you explicitly tell it to. 18:37:50 Niiiiice 18:37:59 Good thing I barely edit Wikipedia at all now. 18:38:04 Not worth the hassle. 18:39:12 elliott, it's also still pre-alpha. 18:39:22 Phantom_Hoover: So they can mess it up even more! Yay! 18:40:09 I mention all of this because it has been installed on RationalWiki (for which I have very little time for any more) and there is a dedicated cadre of users who have decided that if you think it's awful and you don't like it you're a LUDDITE who is AGAINST PROGRESS. 18:40:14 BRB food. 18:40:56 http://webssh.cz.cc/ 18:41:01 Vorpal: ^ This is not a joke. 18:42:13 Phantom_Hoover: Well ... I've learned not to expect reason from RationalWiki ... :-P 18:44:08 elliott, about one person could trust it. The guy who made it 18:44:26 Vorpal: BUT NO, WHY NOT CLICK IT NOW AND GIVE ME YOUR PASSWORDS 18:44:37 elliott, har har 18:44:51 Vorpal: The *only* better thing is that online SSH key generator. 18:44:59 That was the height of comedy. 18:45:03 I don't appear to be able to Google it any more. 18:45:09 Maybe it's been removec. 18:45:10 *removed. 18:47:12 Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:2010_awards#Lumenos 18:55:50 elliott, he should have won the Lumenos award, but that thing died because everyone on RW is far more interested in discussing minutiae and acting like adolescents than actually doing anything interesting. 18:56:26 Phantom_Hoover: I'm now reading an argument you+people are having about Human. I tell you, this thing is a greater goldmine of drama than ED. 18:56:52 Yep. I stopped taking it seriously forever ago, and complaining is FUN. 18:57:25 TBH I wouldn't mind RationalWiki so much if it was instead called FunForRedditAtheistsWiki. 18:57:43 As far as I can tell the articles designed to be amusing drown out the ones with any actual information by the thousands. 18:58:47 (I need a better term for "reddit atheists" than "reddit atheists".) 18:58:59 Anyway, moving on to interesting things! 18:59:08 Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU DO ANGULAR MOMENTUM YET 18:59:17 elliott, NO 18:59:25 BECAUSE I AM LAZY 18:59:26 Phantom_Hoover: BUT YOU SAID YOU WOULD 18:59:30 WITH A SIMPLE SUBCLASS 18:59:34 AND SCARED OF FLOATING-POINT TRIG 18:59:45 Phantom_Hoover, actually, just leave that as an exercise to the game player! 19:00:08 Vorpal, THERE WOULD STILL BE FLOATING POINT TRIG 19:00:16 ... what is scary about floating point trig? 19:00:20 I WILL NOT BE HAPPY UNTIL EVERYTHING IS A CAUCHY SEQUENCE 19:00:41 Phantom_Hoover: Just pretend they're perfect reals. 19:00:43 NOBODY HAS TO KNOW 19:00:45 Phantom_Hoover, so shell out to mathematica for it 19:00:56 Mathematica ... does not use cauchy sequences. 19:01:01 Vorpal, Mathematica doesn't do that. 19:01:07 elliott, I'm sure you could write that in it 19:01:13 Vorpal: You could also write it in Common Lisp. 19:01:15 Or PHP. 19:01:28 Why you would shell out to an inferior language like Mathematica is unclear. 19:01:32 elliott, well sure, but the line "shell out to mathematica" is funnier 19:01:44 I would honestly rather shell out to PHP> 19:01:47 *PHP. 19:01:51 :D 19:02:22 Phantom_Hoover, implement cauchy sequences in C then 19:02:23 or something 19:02:38 Someone help me work out my GolfScript ripoff. 19:03:47 Phantom_Hoover: I CHOOSE YOU 19:03:52 You can get out of it by doing angular momentum. 19:04:14 elliott, golfscript is fun, try another one 19:04:27 elliott, say "inferior PHP ripoff" (ouch!) 19:04:40 No, Phantom_Hoover is scared of any work. 19:04:44 And I really am making a golfscript ripoff. 19:04:56 I'm having trouble distinguishing arrays of small integers and strings, though (ha ha Erlang), which is important for eval. 19:04:58 Specifically, 19:05:04 [1 2 3] eval --> stack is 1 2 3 19:05:05 but 19:05:16 "abc" eval --> stack is whatever the stack is after executing abc 19:05:23 yet "abc" = [97 98 99] 19:05:51 elliott is that an issue? 19:05:57 Vorpal: Yes. 19:06:03 elliott, after all C has string as array of bytes 19:06:16 Because every variable is evaluated on reference. Evaluating anything that isn't a function should just push it to the stack. 19:06:17 erm 19:06:20 elliott: [1 2 3] eval --> stack is 1 2 3 19:06:21 rather 19:06:23 stack is [1 2 3] 19:06:23 as in 19:06:25 single element, [1 2 3] 19:07:11 elliott, why not let eval execute a list? 19:07:25 What. 19:07:39 elliott, I fail to see the issue here 19:07:51 Your last-but-one sentence is utterly incomprehensible. 19:07:54 Restate it. 19:08:19 elliott, well does "abc" eval and [97 98 99] eval have to do different things? 19:08:26 Yes. 19:08:29 elliott, why 19:08:34 Because otherwise you couldn't assign [97 98 99] to a variable. 19:08:41 Because it'd execute "abc" when you mentioned the variable. 19:08:42 elliott, eeeh okay 19:08:48 As I said, variables are evaluated when mentioned. 19:09:04 elliott, then make string and list different data types? 19:09:20 Vorpal: No, because all the operations you might want on the two are the same. 19:09:30 I am considering tracking around the function-ness of a list at this point. 19:10:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:12:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:15:11 elliott: i recall postscript has two kinds of lists depending on whether you want evaluating them to run what's inside or not 19:17:27 oerjan, who won the war? 19:17:54 Phantom_Hoover: there appears to be a strong disagreement between north korea and the usa on this issue 19:18:14 north korea claims that you were completely obliterated by the missile i sent 19:18:35 while the usa claims it exploded just a few seconds after being launched 19:18:39 oerjan, I am a Phantom_Hoover and as such cannot be destroyed with physical weapons. 19:18:55 Phantom_Hoover: the missile contained rice pudding 19:19:12 and incidentally caused the starving of thousands of north koreans 19:19:21 oerjan, a cunning plan, indeed, but I was prepared! 19:20:02 I used the swatpan to catch it, and then hit you with it! 19:20:11 ouch 19:21:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:24:14 elliott: or wait was that dependent on storing it in a variable, my memory is a bit vague 19:24:20 oerjan: who knows :D 19:26:24 -!- updog has joined. 19:26:31 Boy, I've got a massive plate of updog right here. 19:26:31 What's updog? 19:26:40 I don't know, updog. What *is* updog? 19:26:40 What's updog? 19:26:46 A question for the ages. 19:26:47 updog is edible? 19:26:47 What's updog? 19:27:57 i have some suspicions about updog 19:27:58 What's updog? 19:28:04 confirmed 19:28:23 oerjan: what suspicions? 19:28:52 I SUSPECT HE IS OF AN INFERIOR SUBSTRATUM 19:29:05 He's just lodgin'. 19:29:08 oerjan, *substrate 19:29:43 Phantom_Hoover: alternate spelling it seems 19:29:52 In Newspeak updog is doubleplusgood. 19:29:52 What's updog? 19:30:55 hmm updog's got broken 19:30:55 What's updog? 19:30:57 * elliott kills the process 19:31:06 * oerjan slaps elliott with a dickfor 19:31:10 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:31:16 For what? 19:31:22 You didn't complete your sentence. 19:31:44 * oerjan swats elliott for ruining the joke -----### 19:32:02 THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES 19:32:06 oerjan, what's a dickfor? 19:32:09 * Sgeo is considering installing Linux Mint 19:32:11 -!- updog has joined. 19:32:13 Phantom_Hoover: Copulation. 19:32:46 elliott, that was so that I could infiltrate oerjan's evil tyranny and undermine it from within1 19:32:48 *! 19:33:01 AW DAMMIT UPDOG WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO UPDOG 19:33:12 Oh. It could do with some more uppercasing. 19:34:56 elliott, Shut up about Newspeak! 19:35:04 What. 19:35:08 Oh. 19:35:14 I meant Orwell's, dummy. 19:38:57 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:39:27 -!- updog has joined. 19:39:56 Updog! 19:39:56 What's updog? 19:40:00 I don't know 19:40:10 Gah, why is it using all the CPU. 19:40:31 it's due to a plot by its arch-nemesis downcat 19:40:57 -!- Quadrescence has left (?). 19:41:26 inorite sounds like a very annoying mineral 19:41:44 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:41:54 -!- updog has joined. 19:42:15 UPDOOOG 19:42:23 Updog 19:42:24 What's updog? 19:42:26 I already told you, I don't know 19:43:13 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:43:51 What language is your bots in? 19:43:56 -!- updog has joined. 19:43:59 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:43:59 (is? are?) 19:44:19 -!- updog has joined. 19:44:36 updog is in Ruby. 19:44:36 What's updog? 19:44:43 It is also proof that I have no concept of "pointless". 19:45:16 Yet you have the gall to call things I do pointless. 19:45:32 I detect the distinct tinge of offence. 19:50:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:52:47 ais523! 19:53:01 One after ais522! 19:53:36 ais522+1! 19:54:10 ++ 19:54:28 NO YOU EMBIGGENED HIM 19:56:34 i think i've upset sgeo forever now 19:58:40 OS X thinks that you unpack .bin files to .bin.cpgz. 19:58:40 What. 19:59:17 I saw that before as well. 20:00:39 hi everyone 20:01:00 sorry, I was busy saying hi to a greeting cascade in a different channel 20:01:01 elliott: cpgz is an abbreviation for .cpio.gz? 20:01:37 ais523: quite possibly 20:02:02 * elliott converts to ISO 20:02:29 ais523: i have a lot of updog lying around, can you take care of it? 20:02:29 What's updog? 20:02:31 elliott: also after reading perl6 "spec", I believe that @foo.filter(* % 2)>>*>>2 would have the desired effect discussed yesterday 20:02:34 NEVER CEASES TO AMUSE 20:02:39 coppro: lmao 20:03:04 coppro: not @foo.filter(*%2)>>* ** 2? 20:03:20 oh, no, you're right, my bad 20:03:28 or @foo.filter(* % 2)»**»2 20:03:45 :D 20:03:48 the >> or » is the "hyper" metaoperator and extends the operation over the list 20:04:04 » is more of a pain to actually type but more readable 20:04:21 i think all the perl 6 editors must have really tricked-out emacs setups for unicode 20:04:25 yeah 20:04:35 also this assumes filter exists and works like that 20:04:42 I haven't checked that yet 20:04:46 :D 20:05:06 (also, re my complaint about it not being a spec, ff and fff operators are /never/ defined. They just say "have semantics like Perl 5 .. and ... flipflops) 20:07:19 ah, nope, that's not quite right 20:07:36 s/filter/grep/ 20:08:37 Vorpal: I'm about to test COMI (MI3) in ScummVM now. 20:09:09 Vorpal: So if it works well, then it works well on 2.1GHz Core 2 Duo w/ 4 GiB of RAM, good nvidia integrated GPU and 256 GiB SSD. Which is of course very relevant to your situation. 20:09:13 elliott, telst what? 20:09:16 test* 20:09:18 COMI. 20:09:20 oh right 20:09:20 Curse of Monkey Island. 20:09:35 elliott, and I checked, it works well on my computer 20:10:09 elliott, play it on hard! 20:10:20 Vorpal: There is no hard, there's just "wimp" vs. "actual game". 20:10:24 Vorpal: I assume you played MI2 on hard too. 20:10:29 I have no idea why the easy versions exist. 20:10:34 elliott, of course I used hard 20:10:37 Why play an adventure game if you don't want puzzles? 20:10:56 elliott, except for MI3 it looks like it is called normal and mega 20:11:02 Yes. 20:11:03 while for MI2 it was easy and normal 20:11:06 Mega is the one you want to play. :p 20:11:17 Vorpal: First report: Well, it starts up! It's ugly-LCD-scaled, though. 20:11:20 Why are LCDs so bad at scaling? 20:11:30 I can't use the 2x filter because 960 > 800. 20:11:45 elliott, wait a second. 800? 20:11:52 elliott, which dimension is 800? 20:12:00 Vorpal: 1440x800 20:12:05 640x480 * 2 = something x 960. 20:12:12 elliott, can't you play it at native res? 20:12:21 Vorpal: Sure. It gets ugly-LCD-scaled. 20:12:23 elliott, WINDOWED! 20:12:27 Vorpal: Ew. 20:12:31 elliott, do it! 20:12:34 Vorpal: Talk about non-immersive. 20:12:50 elliott, idea: windowed on completely black bg 20:12:52 Vorpal: Maybe if it could black out the rest of my screen and center it. 20:12:53 Ha. 20:13:10 Vorpal: Oh, and MI3 of course has voice acting, if you didn't know. 20:13:12 Good voice acting, mind you. 20:13:14 elliott, so black bg and hide menu bars then window near middle 20:13:28 elliott, I noticed. I played the first scene to test it 20:13:44 Finished MI2 yet? 20:13:57 elliott, well no, but I had to test system reqs 20:14:04 Indeed. 20:14:30 Why doesn't ScummVM have a 1.5x. 20:14:41 elliott, black border! 20:14:43 960x720 with black border around it would be perfect. 20:14:48 But 640x480 is so small. 20:14:53 Vorpal: This is 128 ppi, dammit! 20:14:56 640x480 looks like my thumbnail! 20:15:18 elliott, anyway windowed is only sane option for me. 96 dpi or such. And 24" 20:15:31 elliott, 24" wide screen even 20:15:51 Vorpal: I think every computer should come with a low-quality early-90s CRT, complete with digital-to-VGA converter. 20:16:02 It's the best way to play. 20:18:39 Vorpal: Allow me to demonstrate why windowed doesn't work for me. 20:18:55 elliott, ? 20:19:16 Mrf. 20:19:18 Gimme a second. 20:19:22 imgur appears to now transcode big pngs to jpg. 20:19:30 Low quality at that. 20:20:45 Vorpal: http://ompldr.org/vNnQzdA 20:20:51 Vorpal: Now consider that that's on a 13" screen. 20:22:22 Vorpal: Get the picture? :p 20:22:37 waiting for it to load 20:22:40 (browser that is) 20:22:47 get an ssd :P 20:22:49 elliott, yes what is the problem 20:22:59 Vorpal: OK. First look at its size in comparison to the whole thing. 20:23:05 Vorpal: Now try and remember how big a 13" laptop's screen is. 20:23:09 elliott, SURE if you have 2x 1 TB SSD for use in RAID 1 20:23:14 Vorpal: (Try looking at your laptop's and imagining a screen quite a bit smaller.) 20:23:27 Get the problem? It's tiny. Not very nice. 20:23:42 I'm going to play it with LCD-crappy-scaling, I think. 20:23:57 elliott, right. Still it fills less of the screen than on my desktop 20:24:15 Vorpal: Full screen the damn thing :P 20:24:25 elliott, on a wide screen!? 20:24:31 Vorpal: Black borders at the side, duh. 20:24:33 LCDs do that. 20:24:42 Vorpal: And if you have more than 800 vertical pixels, you can use the 2x scaler. 20:24:45 So the LCD scaling will be minimal. 20:25:03 Phantom_Hoover: Have YOU played monkey island? 20:25:08 * Sgeo is addicted to watching DS9 20:25:26 Although it is, thus far, the least entertaining series I have ever comitted myself to watching 20:25:37 *committed. 20:25:38 Phantom_Hoover: WELL 20:25:44 elliott, I have 1050 vertical 20:25:51 Does it get better in season 2? 20:25:58 elliott, I have not! 20:26:05 Vorpal: Right. Try full-screening it; set the scaler to "2x". 20:26:10 All in Edit Game. 20:26:16 Phantom_Hoover: Play NAO 20:26:17 elliott, not in global options? 20:26:19 *NOW 20:26:22 elliott, HAO 20:26:24 Vorpal: No, that'll set it for the launcher UI too. 20:26:27 Phantom_Hoover: SCUMMVM 20:26:47 Now I leave you scoundrels to play the game! 20:26:48 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:27:19 2xSAI looks better 20:29:05 fungot 20:29:06 Phantom_Hoover: mtmp mo 9; ytmp yr 1; s splnet(); alien. i quote below from the domain of a line behind the original file! 20:34:28 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:37:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:48:14 -!- elliott has joined. 20:48:28 Vorpal: Helpful tip for COMI: If your cursor is an arrow, double-clicking goes there immediately, btw. 20:48:34 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:50:20 * Sgeo is excited for this month 20:51:33 -!- elliott has joined. 20:51:59 Vorpal: Have you been able to get voice-with-no-subtitles working? 20:52:07 elliott, why Must O'Brien Suffer? 20:52:10 Vorpal: It shows the subtitles for me. 20:52:17 Sgeo: Because. 20:52:29 Sgeo, oh god why are you excited. 20:52:32 Vorpal: Even when I just set it to Speech. 20:52:56 Have plans to meet up with a girl 20:53:03 Oh god. I'm leaving now. 20:53:06 Vorpal: Please answer quickly. 20:53:08 Sgeo, Christ no. 20:53:27 Phantom_Hoover, why is this distressing? 20:53:43 * elliott envisions thousands of tiny little Sgeos running around, retreats into his own nightmare. 20:53:48 Sgeo, it implies your genes may continue. 20:54:02 I'm going to go drown my sorrows. In Monkey Island. 20:54:02 Also, you are clearly incapable of a committed relationship. 20:54:07 Dammit Vorpal, respond. 20:54:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, how does Factor feel? 20:54:18 You abandoned her, you bastard. 20:54:27 For that slut Scala. 20:54:32 Was it Scala? 20:54:36 I've lost track. 20:54:43 I wonder if even Sgeo knows. 20:54:44 I think so. 20:54:53 I don't think I gave Scala more than a passing glance 20:55:05 Sgeo: I swear you did. 20:55:09 Or was it Clojure 20:55:09 ? 20:55:16 Never even touched Clojure 20:55:25 Sgeo: OK, I give up guessing. 20:55:30 I started reading about Scala again, then this channel discouraged me 20:55:38 I think I went Factor -> Newspeak 20:55:38 I'ma play COMI. 20:56:02 Awesome, shutup PMs me now 20:57:28 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:58:25 back 20:58:40 Vorpal: Have you been able to get voice-with-no-subtitles working? <-- no clue 21:03:59 Sgeo, do you like Ian Stewart? 21:05:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]). 21:07:05 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 21:09:51 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 21:09:58 :( 21:10:02 \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ 21:10:02 `\o/´ `\o/´ 21:10:02 | | 21:10:02 /´¯|_) /'\ 21:10:02 (_| (_| |_) 21:11:11 * Sgeo wikis 21:11:23 * Sgeo wants to read The Science of Discworld at some point 21:16:13 3 is the best 21:16:56 3, was that the one with Darwin in it? 21:17:23 yeah 21:17:45 with the god of evolution 21:27:33 -!- elliott has joined. 21:27:39 wb elliott 21:27:47 Sgeo: Ian Stewart is the one who wrote that EVIL BOOK, FLATTERLAND. 21:27:53 (Information thanks to Sgeo) 21:28:02 coppro: hello, i'm going back to playing COMI 21:28:08 none of you are interesting enough 21:29:15 elliott: flatterland is evil? 21:29:25 coppro: according to Sgeo! 21:29:43 Sgeo: flatterland is evil? 21:29:48 05:41:20 I just realized something horrible about Flatterland 21:29:49 05:42:36 It promotes the pseudoscientific bullshit involving taking scientific words, interpreting stuff as you please, and thinking it means something 21:29:49 05:43:10 --- join: jcp (~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539) joined #esoteric 21:29:50 05:44:07 I feel no guilt about spoiling this: the last scene involves the protagonist basing arguments for gender equality on Flatland's supersymmetry 21:29:52 05:45:29 "Supersymmetric sister! ..." 21:29:54 05:46:03 I forgot the rest of her advertisement on Flatland's Internet 21:29:56 coppro: BEHOLD THE HORROR 21:30:01 and now to play a game where i can forget all you bastards exit -> 21:30:49 ah 21:30:57 elliott: we don't exit 21:31:01 we idle here 21:31:06 coppro: heh 21:31:20 it's funny because i meant to say exist, you bsatards. 21:31:22 *bastards. 21:32:11 I know 21:32:50 you don't know anything. i'm going back to guybrush threepwood. 21:32:51 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:33 " I feel no guilt about spoiling this:" 21:36:52 WHAT KIND OF MATHEMATICAL CRIME CAN JUSTIFY SUCH A CRIME 21:37:07 Er, s/CRIME/DEED/ 21:38:12 supersymmetric ones, of course 21:41:48 -!- j-invariant has joined. 21:41:57 "Dramatis Personae" was an awesome episode 21:45:22 No it wasn't. 21:46:33 that names rings a bell for some reason 21:46:58 Phantom_Hoover, what? 21:46:59 never read any karl marx 21:47:13 j-invariant, what? 21:47:54 j-invariant, Dramatis Personae is the pretentious Latin name for a list of characters in a play. 21:48:03 ah that will be it then 21:48:18 It's also an awesome season 1 episode of DS9 21:49:26 And a group of theater-like people in Stephenson's Diamond Age book. 21:50:46 gah, argument in another channel: does O(1/n) mean anything at all, and if so, does it mean something different from O(1)? 21:51:44 using f in O(1/n) iff f in O(n) by my definition 21:51:47 ais523, well, I think the definition of O(f(x)) is reliant on f being strictly increasing. 21:53:45 -!- elliott has joined. 21:53:49 O(1/n) does mean something! 21:53:54 k/n will be smaller than some constant eventually, so O(1/n) should imply a lower upper bound 21:54:03 ais523: O(1/n) = O(n^-1) -- it's EXPONENTIAL! 21:54:05 21:54:09 lol 21:54:20 it definitely isn't O(1) though i don't think 21:54:24 O(n) maybe 21:54:25 elliott, polynomial, surely? 21:54:31 But no, it isn't O(1). 21:54:38 Phantom_Hoover: n^-1 <-- LOOKS LIKE EXPONENTIATION TO ME 21:54:39 f(x) = 1 isn't O(1/n) :D 21:54:43 O(1/n) is not the same as either O(1) or O(n) 21:54:49 O(1/n) is O(fish) 21:54:59 oafish? 21:55:01 elliott, Dramatis Personae <3 21:55:06 1/n^2 is O(1/n) 21:55:07 f in O(1) means that there exists some x' and c such that every x > x' we have f(x) >= c 21:55:25 j-invariant: * <= 21:55:31 yeah, <= 21:55:44 i've always thought =< would be a better symbol 21:55:45 less ambiguou 21:55:46 s 21:55:53 ah yes they are different, my mistake 21:56:00 Isn't there a language that does that? 21:56:04 =< and >= ? 21:56:14 you merely described \Omega(1) there 21:56:23 oh wait 21:56:28 no, that is exactly \Omega(1) 21:56:31 Sgeo: eralgn 21:56:34 Sgeo: btw, the Dominion arc starts properly at the end of season 2. 21:56:46 WP gives f(x) is O(g(x)) iff |f(x)| <= M|g(x)| forall x>c. 21:56:50 ais523: i guess the confusion is because for things larger than O(1) you have an equivalent choice of _either_ using the "every x > x'" form _or_ adding a constant and saying it holds everywhere? 21:57:05 although you forgot the absolute value condition 21:57:08 So if c = 1, it's O(1). 21:57:19 and those obviously give different interpretations for O(1/n) 21:57:24 Phantom_Hoover: uh what 21:57:26 not at all 21:57:30 coppro, err, you're right. 21:57:35 if g(x) is constant 21:57:57 and f(x) is O(g(x)), then f(x) is also O(1) 21:58:18 Wait, yes. Forall x>1, 1/x<1. 21:58:20 new question -- are there any algorithms that are O(1/n)? 21:58:32 I think there are, but only ones that explicitly do a for loop up to 1/n :P 21:58:38 Phantom_Hoover: oh, you're saying 1/x is O(1) 21:58:38 yes 21:58:39 that is true 21:59:02 more generally, x^n is O(x^m) if n < m 21:59:06 *<= 21:59:14 coppro, not if you allow n to be arbitrarily close to 0. 21:59:21 ais523: however when you use O()-notation for things like Taylor series, you cannot just add constants (e.g. since you are taking limits with real numbers rather than a sequence) 21:59:33 Phantom_Hoover: huh? 21:59:40 sure 21:59:46 hmm, don't you *multiply* by constants though? 21:59:58 n^-10000000000000000 is O(1) 22:00:06 Pop quiz: How do you install Ubuntu on a machine that can't run unetbootin, doesn't have an optical drive, and without a USB drive to hand? 22:00:25 coppro, not if you allow n to be arbitrarily near 0! 22:00:37 Prizes offered for ansewrs. 22:00:40 elliott: grab a minimalist floppy with debbootstrap installed? 22:00:52 Phantom_Hoover: why not? 22:00:58 coppro: um ok this is a macbook air, it doesn't have an optical drive and it _certainly_ doesn't have a floppy drive :D 22:01:04 elliott: oh 22:01:07 coppro, because there's no upper bound to 1/x, x<0! 22:01:22 Phantom_Hoover: uh what 22:01:25 Sorry, x>0. 22:01:26 coppro: I'm thinking either netboot, or partition the drive, somehow write the Ubuntu CD to that drive, and boot from it 22:01:34 it's about asymptotic behavior, Phantom_Hoover 22:01:38 elliott: there's a windows-based installer 22:01:46 coppro: It's a Mac. It doesn't come with Windows either. 22:01:48 elliott: oh 22:01:53 coppro: also Wubi is beyond shit 22:01:54 elliott: hmm 22:01:56 it is the shittiest McShit of Shitville 22:01:58 coppro, wait, starting point isn't... OK, you're right. 22:01:59 oerjan: istr the thing you use for Taylor series is a different notation that just happens to look similar to O-notation but is actually completely different 22:02:04 elliott: can you repartition the drive safely? 22:02:10 coppro: yes, while it's booted no less 22:02:13 i think 22:02:22 elliott: just do that and have a VM run the CD 22:02:23 elliott: Hello, welcome to McDonalds, would you like to try our Shitty McShitville McShit? 22:02:26 elliott, ok 22:02:33 coppro: netbooting might actually work out in this case -- if I can install a netbooter without a CD. I think rEFIt might be able to do it? 22:02:36 Gregor: Yes. 22:02:37 Sgeo: What. 22:02:38 Sgeo, zuh? 22:02:39 coppro: No, no VMs. 22:02:46 coppro: VM hardware veeeeery different to Mac hardware. 22:02:50 Sgeo: btw, the Dominion arc starts properly at the end of season 2. 22:02:59 Sgeo: ah. 22:03:06 Sgeo, do you actually read books any more? 22:03:09 Also, I feel that ok was a proper response especially given that the previous line was about Erlang 22:03:09 elliott: Ubuntu installer doesn't care about hardware does it? 22:03:15 Phantom_Hoover, rarely 22:03:28 coppro: erm. i wouldn't trust it not to, especially since EFI is ~weirdcakes~ 22:03:30 elliott: and if it does, it should work well enough to dpkg-reconfigure everything 22:03:31 Sgeo, hmm. 22:03:32 and it installs bootloaders 22:03:45 elliott: oh yeah, forgot about bootloaders 22:03:57 I did read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency a while ago 22:03:57 debbootstrap then and do the bootloader config manually 22:04:06 coppro will want me to read it again, iirc 22:04:12 yep 22:04:13 coppro: i don't like your solutions, i just want to get the actual cd booted, through any means :) 22:04:20 the actual installation I want to do with a native boot of the normal installer 22:04:24 elliott: fine. write the cd to partition then 22:04:36 coppro: I am not convinced that will work :D a USB image, maybe 22:04:45 plus can ubuntu install to the media it was booted off? 22:04:46 I doubt it 22:04:51 IIRC it's a pain to get it to do that 22:05:34 olsner: um i think the only difference with Taylor series is that you are taking the limit as you go to a particular real value rather than as you go to infinity 22:06:04 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:06:22 elliott: I don't think it's difficult at all 22:06:24 -!- pingveno has joined. 22:06:30 actually wait 22:06:38 a netboot is looking appealing at this point 22:06:44 no, you wouldn't be able to without massive trickery 22:06:45 erm, if i can netboot over wifi 22:06:52 glwt 22:07:03 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:07:04 coppro: well i've done similar things 22:07:08 coppro: involving lazy, forced unmounts 22:07:15 coppro: using unetbootin in its put-it-in-C:\ mode 22:07:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBoot WONDER IF I COULD USETHIS 22:08:20 * coppro is going to add the bias warning template 22:08:22 where is that template 22:08:41 coppro: to hwhat 22:08:53 *what 22:09:16 coppro: ? 22:09:48 elliott: that page you just linked 22:09:55 coppro: er why? 22:09:58 I don't see any bias 22:11:07 "core technology" 22:11:19 "technology from Apple" 22:11:24 -!- pingveno has joined. 22:11:27 coppro: you do realise that NetBoot is a proprietary Apple thing? 22:11:30 I do 22:11:30 note the capital B 22:11:35 so yes, it is from Apple 22:11:36 what's the issue 22:11:53 coppro: does it "read like an advertisement" solely because it doesn't have a huge Criticism section or something? 22:12:02 everything there is neutral and referenced 22:12:20 elliott: it doesn't seem neutral to me; if other disagree, wiki magic will remove that template and things will be well 22:13:05 but it, in my opinion, ought to read more like "NetBoot is a proprietary Apple implementation of network booting" or the like 22:13:25 coppro: that sounds less neutral than the current text. 22:14:12 elliott: in what way? 22:14:27 coppro: "proprietary" being the fourth word 22:14:43 NetBoot is Apple's implementation of network booting -- sure 22:14:43 And the first one that counts. 22:14:50 indeed 22:15:01 elliott: ok, dropping proprietary would be ok 22:15:22 I actually don't know enough about it to know if it's proprietary, I just said that because you did 22:15:47 i think the extensions to the protocol are proprietary 22:16:45 wonder if there's a usb stick lying around here 22:25:34 ais523: is there an #ubuntu-less-stupid? 22:26:13 no 22:26:50 why not, i have a question requiring actual though to answer 22:39:58 elliott, there is now. 22:40:12 There is? 22:40:27 elliott: you could try a channel at random 22:40:40 especially on freenode, ubuntu saturation may be high enough to find someone who knows 22:40:55 ais523: picked my channel, will ask a question now 22:40:59 hey guys! 22:41:01 anyone use ubuntu? 22:41:09 I want to write the Live CD/USB to a disk partition and boot that with e.g. GRUB 22:41:12 is this possible? if so, how? 22:41:16 ais523: am i doing it right? 22:41:54 22:41 itaylor57: Gartral: they arent flags just optiopns 22:41:57 --#ubuntu 22:43:16 Huh 22:43:27 Maybe the Bajoran-Cardassian stuff is interesting 22:43:33 (Just saw "Duet") 22:44:03 Of course it's interesting X-P 22:44:17 Sgeo, do you actually consume any non-mass-market SF? 22:44:18 I thought it would bore me 22:44:36 Phantom_Hoover: Does Star Trek count as mass-market really? 22:44:38 Phantom_Hoover, ... what does and does not count as mass-market? 22:44:39 It's pretty nerdy. 22:44:51 elliott, yes, but it counts in my book. 22:44:59 Phantom_Hoover: As what, mass-market? 22:45:05 Perhaps "mass-market" is the wrong word. 22:45:06 Phantom_Hoover: Yer not a HATER are ye?! 22:45:21 Does HHGG count as mass-market? 22:45:35 Wait, you've read Fine Structure. 22:45:37 Who the fuck says HHGG. 22:45:37 Does the SCP Foundation wiki? 22:45:44 HHGttG, yes. H2G2, eys. 22:45:45 *yes. 22:45:46 HHGG? 22:45:47 Which elliott has not, and as such he is inferior to sgeo. 22:45:58 Phantom_Hoover: I've read like 55% of it! 22:46:06 =P 22:46:11 ais523: your idea didn't work 22:46:16 elliott, the WRONG 55%! 22:50:00 Vorpal: you know how you mentioned using a native EFI bootloader? 22:50:11 Vorpal: apparently VTs don't work with that. or suspend/resume. or brightness control 22:56:54 Phantom_Hoover: It's your lucky day! You get to help me figure out my new partitioning scheme! 22:57:32 NOOOOOOOO 22:57:46 Phantom_Hoover: I NEED THREE PARTITIONS YO 22:57:58 Actually, wait. 22:58:10 What's the best partition format that both OS X and Linux can read? 22:58:51 FAT16. 22:59:01 Phantom_Hoover: Um, I would think that they can both read FAT32 at least. 22:59:04 In fact I know that for a fact. 23:03:52 Oh come on, surely someone is opinionated enough to partition my drive for me. 23:03:53 coppro! 23:05:25 elliott, partition it in a geometric series. 23:05:56 Phantom_Hoover: oijrt 23:05:57 x 23:06:08 ais523: why don't you partition my drive :P 23:06:09 elliott: I don't know 23:06:13 elliott, it's not that horrible an idea. 23:06:14 FAT32 will work though 23:07:55 Vorpal: apparently VTs don't work with that. or suspend/resume. or brightness control <-- wtf wtf and wtf 23:08:06 elliott, most wtf at the first thing though! 23:08:14 Vorpal: they stay black apparently 23:08:15 Vorpal: because the legacy bios support doesn't go on 23:08:19 Vorpal: so clearly linux's efi support SUCKS 23:08:23 elliott, quite 23:08:36 I can't figure out how to partition this drive though 23:08:46 256 GiB ... quite small since I need two partitions and then a shared one 23:08:57 elliott, well get an 1 TB SSD! 23:09:01 shared I think I'll go for ext2 or ext3, since there's a FUSE thing for ext2/ext3 designed for OS X 23:09:04 http://alperakcan.org/?open=projects&project=fuse-ext2 23:09:15 not sure if i can trust it 23:09:24 last release 0.0.7 in 2009 X-D 23:09:29 perhaps not 23:09:35 elliott, question: are there no insult-fights in MI2? 23:09:50 Vorpal: hm indeed 23:09:54 Vorpal: there are in MI3 though 23:09:56 and they rhyme 23:10:29 maybe ... 96 gig shared partition 23:10:31 oh 23:10:34 that only leaves 80 gigs per os 23:10:39 :( 23:11:04 elliott, I sing the joyful song of 1 TB disks in RAID 1 at this point! 23:11:24 :D 23:11:25 sing a song of sixpence 23:11:37 oerjan, err was this a pun of some sort? 23:11:41 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:11:42 Vorpal: I'm fucking impressed that they can even fit 256 gigs into this thing :P 23:11:55 I keep turning it on its side trying to figure out the bulge where all the components are 23:11:58 IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE 23:12:34 Vorpal: a very cheap pun. at least i doubt you can get 1 TB disks for six pence 23:12:37 Vorpal: btw one really cool thing about os x is that you can resize the current booted OS partition 23:12:41 grow /and/ shrink 23:15:15 Vorpal: quick, how should i partition! 23:19:08 Vorpal: :| 23:19:44 elliott, IIRC there are some HFS things for Linux... 23:19:58 irrelevant 23:20:03 i just want actual partitioning advice at this point 23:20:32 os x size, ubuntu size, and shared size 23:21:41 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 23:23:36 Phantom_Hoover: HA;LP 23:24:55 Phantom_Hoover: 256 gigs give me three numbers 23:25:55 clearly this requires a salomonic judgement. i hear he was good at partitioning. 23:26:00 elliott, I don't know about partitioning! 23:26:06 Phantom_Hoover: Let me restate. 23:26:08 My partition table is HORRIFIC! 23:26:11 Phantom_Hoover: How many gigs should I give to OS X. 23:26:15 How many gigs should I give to Ubuntu. 23:26:18 How many gigs should I give to shared. 23:26:29 elliott, 25%, 25%, 50%? 23:26:44 Oh, wait, you aren't meant to use the whole disk, 23:26:48 Phantom_Hoover: That gives a whopping 64 gigs for each OS ... waay to smal. 23:26:49 *small. 23:26:50 And what? 23:26:53 I want to use the entire disk. 23:27:07 OK. 1/8th for each OS, and the rest to shared. 23:27:16 Phantom_Hoover: ...dude. 23:27:29 Phantom_Hoover: You are telling me to give 32 gigs to each OS. 23:27:33 80 gigs is more reasonable. 23:27:47 Maybe 72. 23:27:48 Not 32. 23:27:53 elliott, WELL I DON'T KNOW 23:27:57 PAH 23:28:31 You might as well ask Sgeo for help with... anything. 23:29:01 Sgeo, incidentally, what in god's name are you wearing in your Facebook profile picture? 23:29:08 Maybe 72 for both OSes, and 112 for shared. 23:29:13 It looks like you just came from a furry convention. 23:29:28 oh god mental image stop it 23:29:53 Hmm. I've currently used 34 gigs on this OS X partition and I barely have anything on it. 23:30:19 Yeah, OS X seems to take up *way* too much space. 23:30:49 Perhaps 96 (OS X) + 64 (Ubuntu), leaving 96 for the shared partition. 23:32:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:35:02 Vorpal: quick, how should i partition! <-- 10 GB for OS X, rest for linux 23:35:16 Vorpal: you do realise that even a base os x install is >10gigs? 23:35:33 this thing is 3 days old and its os x partition is 34 gig used 23:35:42 Vorpal: also i want a shared partition 23:36:55 elliott, did you check the usage when you got it? 23:37:13 No. But I've barely added anything. 23:39:45 Phantom_Hoover, why are you looking at my Facebook profile? 23:39:47 I just found the worst Useless Use Of Cat ever: cat a >> file; cat b >> file; cat c >> file; cat d >> file; 23:39:51 Also: Part of a blood drop suit 23:39:53 Sgeo, curiosity...? 23:40:03 Was volunteering at a blood drive at my school 23:40:14 variable: brilliant 23:40:22 Vorpal: you do realise that even a base os x install is >10gigs? <-- ah, uh 23:40:30 variable, that's not for real is it. 23:40:30 variable: and I say that as an *advocate* for useless uses of cat :) 23:40:32 elliott, how much more than 10 GB? 23:40:34 It's for real, isn't it. 23:40:40 Phantom_Hoover, yes 23:40:40 Vorpal: I do actually plan to use this occasionally. 23:40:46 this thing is 3 days old and its os x partition is 34 gig used <--- what the fucking thing 23:40:54 Vorpal: To be fair, it also has iLife installed. 23:40:58 elliott, 60 GB to OS X? 23:40:58 variable, please show me that script. 23:41:04 http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs941.snc4/73456_489504182743_618027743_7473878_3043494_n.jpg 23:41:07 Vorpal: More like 72 to 96 gigs. 23:41:15 Vorpal: Ubuntu should be fine on 64 to 72 gigs. Rest can go to shared. 23:41:25 elliott, well don't ask me if you don't want to get an answer! 23:41:30 Sgeo, what an odd furry costume. 23:41:34 Vorpal: I don't want an answer that's unworkable :P 23:41:39 Sgeo: What animal is that. 23:42:24 looks like a strawberry to me 23:42:32 (no not an amimal indeed!) 23:42:36 animal* 23:43:30 I have this Ubuntu I've been using a while, it's taking a bit less than 10 jiggabytes, discounting /home. (Just as another point of data.) 23:43:49 Phantom_Hoover, http://pastebin.com/Z3nFQBfk 23:44:26 fizzie: Counting home in this case. 23:44:32 fizzie: A lot of things will be shared but not all. 23:44:52 elliott: Er, well, my /home is 315G, so that's not a helpful data point for you, I think. 23:44:53 Phantom_Hoover, he asked me why it doesn't work 23:44:55 :-\ 23:44:56 variable: the kind of code only a python programmer could write 23:45:03 variable: love the duplicated list-contrib lines 23:45:10 note lines 18-20 23:45:16 The kind of face only a Python programmer could love. 23:45:16 fizzie: Well, yes, indeed. 23:45:38 fizzie: "If they had offered a terabyte SSD..." 23:47:22 ...they would have asked a lot of money for it. 23:47:30 fizzie: They already asked a lot of money. 23:48:11 Prelude> let x = 0/0 23:48:11 Prelude> x == x 23:48:12 False 23:48:13 augur: *cry* 23:48:26 whats wrong elliott 23:48:30 augur: ^ 23:48:35 WHY HASKELL WHY 23:48:41 did the mean GHCi do bad things to you 23:48:44 nan is unequal to everything including itself, what's the problem? :) 23:48:53 show me on the doll where simon peyton jones touched you 23:49:00 olsner: IEEEE CANNOT OVERRIDE THE LAWS OF MATHEMATICS 23:49:03 EQ HAS *RULES* DAMMIT 23:49:07 YOU ARE BREAKING THEM PRELUDE 23:49:10 BAD PRELUDE 23:49:11 BAD! 23:49:36 those "laws of mathematics" should be saying something about not holding when dividing by zero 23:49:50 olsner: obviously that doesnt matter 23:49:55 for all x, x == x. 23:49:58 what augur said 23:50:03 0/0 shouldn't be a valid program, but if it is 23:50:08 then it'd better return a meaningful result 23:50:09 this is simply true regardless of anything 23:50:09 btiches 23:50:11 *valid expression 23:50:16 augur: SURE THING AYN RAND 23:50:19 omg 23:50:23 ayn rand would have hated floating point 23:50:26 can you believe it 23:50:27 I SAID FORALL X NOT FORALL A 23:50:28 GOSH 23:50:32 she'd write books on the evil of floating point 23:50:34 that would be amazing 23:50:38 wouldn't that be amazing? 23:50:40 that would be so amazing 23:51:23 elliott, I think I once said that to an Objectivist at my school. 23:51:33 Phantom_Hoover: I ... doubt he got it 23:51:35 *they 23:52:09 elliott, he didn't. 23:52:11 i dont D: 23:52:21 augur, NaN != NaN 23:52:22 augur: lolz A=A this is basis of philosophy because i am smart 23:52:28 augur: nan != nan bitches 23:52:31 augur: WAAAAAAR 23:52:51 oh is that true about float? lol 23:52:56 I still have no idea what the hell the "A is A" thing is meant to mean. 23:53:09 Phantom_Hoover: yOU ARE YOURSELF AND NO OTHER SELF;;;;ERGO TAXES IS THEFT 23:53:16 Phantom_Hoover: all things are self-identical 23:53:26 Phantom_Hoover: I think it's meant to be like ... uh ... you are yourself, and you are not anyone else, so you have your own existence and consciousness and mind 23:53:34 and are therefore morally obligated only to yourself 23:53:34 or something 23:53:40 it's objectivism man 23:53:42 it makes no fucking sense 23:53:43 why bother 23:53:58 i hereby accuse augur of being a smelly objectivist 23:54:10 hey im not smelly! :( 23:54:14 I accuse augur of not knowing about smelly objectivists. 23:54:17 nor an objectivist but 23:55:35 http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1293725159/30 is it a sign of mental retardation if i can't stop moving my cursor around with the dot? 23:55:40 wheeeeee 23:57:36 I hate books about godels theorem 23:57:47 nobody except godel should be allowed to say anything about it 23:57:58 hah 23:58:02 j-invariant: :D 23:58:29 j-invariant, GEB? 23:58:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT 23:58:41 lol what 23:58:47 Phantom_Hoover: GEB is ... not a good book. 23:58:54 Phantom_Hoover: firewooh 23:58:55 d 23:59:02 GEB is ok 23:59:03 elliott, I know that! 23:59:22 j-invariant, paper doesn't burn too well. 23:59:31 it certainly shouldn't be considered a good math book 23:59:41 or a math book period 2011-01-02: 00:00:34 GEB is what happens when a smart person has some kind of mental blockage that makes them consider recursion amazing. 00:00:51 elliott: and Penrose 00:00:52 elliott, it's like whoa. 00:01:05 j-invariant: Penrose should just be ... forced to shut up forever? 00:01:10 LOL 00:01:10 j-invariant: like a restraining order 00:01:14 he can't publish any books any more 00:01:17 Penrose is crazy too? 00:01:20 elliott: the problem with Penrose is he's a really smart guy 00:01:33 he just has this one absolutely idiotic idea that he talks about sometimes 00:01:39 Phantom_Hoover: he thinks that intelligent life is immortal because the universe's maximum state of entropy has all information or something 00:01:44 ??? I don't know, I can't explain crazy people 00:01:45 I think Hofstader also knows his stuff 00:01:45 j-invariant: yeah 00:01:53 j-invariant: the smarter someone gets, I think, the more likely they are to have one really stupid idea 00:01:59 and be unable to see how stupid it is 00:02:03 yeah 00:02:05 like einstein 00:02:16 coppro, which crazy idea did he have? 00:02:19 oh yeah einstein with that stupid "relativity" stuff 00:02:20 coppro: yeah what was that fucker thinking with realtivity 00:02:22 *relativity 00:02:25 j-invariant: *high5* 00:02:27 :D 00:02:40 Phantom_Hoover: spooky action at a distance 00:03:04 that's my favourite name of anyhting really 00:03:05 isn't the non-existence of action at a distance a direct consequence of relativity? 00:03:10 spooky action at a distance 00:03:15 it's just ... the best name 00:03:15 j-invariant: well, you'd think 00:03:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance_(physics) i bet this was renamed from the proper name by wikilamers 00:03:36 j-invariant: but Einstein also developed the first inklings of quantum theory 00:03:46 GOTT DOST NOT PLAY DIECE 00:03:49 exactly 00:04:10 he hated quantum theory because of its implications 00:04:17 he was too hung up on dumb concepts 00:04:30 despite having given the insight which led to the 00:04:31 *them 00:05:23 gödel's really stupid idea was that he was being poisoned, but that one resolved itself quite quickly :D 00:05:25 aww that was an awful thing to say 00:05:28 i'm such a bad person 00:05:57 GÖDEL'S GHOST FROWNS ON YOU 00:06:08 MAY ALL YOUR THEOREMS BE UNDECIDABLE 00:06:09 gödel's skeletal ghost 00:07:04 Vorpal: OS X — 96 gigs; Ubuntu — 56 gigs; Shared — 96 gigs 00:07:10 Vorpal: dunno whether those are decimal are binary gbs but who cares 00:07:13 does this look reasonable? 00:07:26 my school has a course that includes undecidability 00:07:30 I've heard it's kind of boring :( 00:07:40 I can resize the OS X one at any time really, but 00:08:18 elliott, no it doesn't 00:08:24 elliott, too much of OS X :P 00:08:34 Vorpal: aside from zealotry. 00:08:37 w/in 25 00:08:38 but since you can resize it again, sure 00:08:40 OS X takes up more space, simple fact 00:08:46 Vorpal: yeah but i'd have to get rid of ubuntu/shared 00:08:55 elliott, what? 00:09:01 Vorpal: because this takes up the whole disk 00:09:05 elliott, couldn't you add shared-2 00:09:06 or such 00:09:12 Vorpal: you mean shrink OS X? 00:09:15 elliott, yes 00:09:17 I doubt i'll want to give less to OS X 00:09:20 elliott, ah 00:09:25 considering there's only 50 gigs free on there as it stands 00:09:33 elliott, aren't there shrinkable linux file systems? 00:09:35 56 gigs for ubuntu might be too little? probably not 00:09:41 Vorpal: probably. i'm just going to go with ubuntu default 00:09:58 elliott, not sure how much ubuntu need 00:10:03 du -sh /usr might take a while 00:10:12 Vorpal: well as fizzie said his ubuntu install only uses about 10 gigs. 00:10:16 on my arch system: 00:10:18 $ df -h /usr/ 00:10:18 Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on 00:10:18 /dev/mapper/array-usr 00:10:18 20G 8,5G 11G 46% /usr 00:10:21 Vorpal: but there's /home in these too, just things like music will go on shared 00:10:24 and also probably code? 00:10:34 elliott, well my /home : 00:10:41 Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on 00:10:41 /dev/mapper/array-home 00:10:41 69G 59G 7,4G 89% /home 00:10:48 89% !? 00:10:50 lol 00:10:54 I guess I'll have to grow it 00:10:55 again 00:11:01 long live LVM! 00:11:01 yes, yes, I /am/ planning to buy my big desktop system. 00:11:19 elliott, you here see the wonder of LVM! 00:11:19 Vorpal: I'd like it if there was some kind of standard thing like a slimmed down LVM ... with saner nomenclature and tools. 00:11:30 Vorpal: and if all filesystems supported resizing. online resizing. 00:11:43 elliott, well actually jfs supports on line growing 00:11:46 Vorpal: but, uh, LVM has the wondrous feature of interoperating with NOTHING 00:11:55 want to just LOOK at your files in another OS? SORYYYYY 00:11:58 elliott, so does ext4 iirc 00:12:08 Vorpal: yeah. well. i'm not making my shared partition ext4 00:12:10 elliott, lvm for fuse? DO IT NOW! 00:12:16 fuck no 00:12:25 elliott, I think ext3 supports resizing too 00:12:28 online I mean 00:12:52 elliott, anyway I doubt I will change from linux on my destop 00:12:55 Fuck it, I'm resizing. If I decide it's all wrong I'll trash ubuntu & shared and redo it. 00:12:55 desktop* 00:13:07 elliott, what about swap 00:13:07 Vorpal: um hello @? (okay so @ won't interact with anything else either :-)) 00:13:14 Vorpal: I don't need swap, I have four gigabytes of RAM 00:13:22 elliott, you can't suspend to disk then 00:13:27 Vorpal: Sure you can with a swap file. 00:13:32 ... right 00:13:52 Vorpal: OK, fine, I'll make room for a six gig swap. 00:13:54 elliott, it's a blood drop 00:13:54 elliott, separate /boot I guess? 00:13:56 -!- wareya has joined. 00:14:03 elliott, needs to be 60 MB or less 00:14:16 (well it could be larger) 00:14:17 * Sgeo finished Braid 00:14:24 (would be a waste though) 00:14:29 Vorpal: why separate /boot. 00:14:43 elliott, well depends on if your bootloader can handle the main fs 00:15:18 elliott, I guess you need to install bootloader into partition rather than into mbr on that computer 00:15:20 elliott, no? 00:15:34 $ du -sh /usr/ 00:15:34 7,6G /usr/ 00:15:36 from thinkpad 00:16:09 /var contains a few chroots 00:16:13 so pointless to check 00:16:23 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:16:58 -!- elliott has joined. 00:17:00 Wow. 00:17:03 That resize was quick. 00:17:06 Wonder why LimeChat crashed. 00:17:12 (Resize and partition, no less.) 00:17:24 OK, now I need to put GRUB on the shared partition. 00:17:40 You can install GRUB from OS X right? ...right? 00:18:05 hmm 00:18:11 can you download "GRUB 2 images" or something? 00:18:16 I wouldn't count on it: :) 00:18:51 oh come on, i have to :P 00:19:56 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:20:55 configure: error: objconv not found which is required when building with apple compiler 00:21:02 olsner: grub can build on os x apparently? 00:21:43 -!- variable has joined. 00:22:01 sure, but isn't it heaps easier to do this from ubuntu once you install it? :) 00:22:08 00:21 < c_wraith> (I have goldbach's conjecture in formal logic as a tattoo) 00:22:10 olsner: i need grub to install it. 00:22:19 j-invariant: lol. 00:22:30 goldbach's conjecture is beautiful now? 00:22:33 right, due to not having an optical drive? 00:22:35 in logic notation? 00:22:42 olsner: i'm going to boot from hd with grub :p 00:22:47 so you're going to install the installer and boot it with grub? 00:22:49 olsner: I could just fish out a usb stick but this is the moar funz 00:22:50 yes 00:22:52 yes i am 00:22:54 install by copying 00:22:57 I approve :D 00:23:33 GRUB2 will be compiled with following components: 00:23:33 Platform: i386-efi 00:23:37 hmm 00:23:40 oh wait grub doesn't do 64-bit 00:23:40 right 00:23:43 don't want efi though 00:24:12 can it even boot without efi support on a mac? 00:24:20 olsner: well. yes. with bios emulation. 00:24:26 although probably it hands over control as bios? 00:24:33 i'm just scared that it'll be grub-efi 00:24:35 which I do nooooot want 00:24:42 olsner: see http://grub.enbug.org/TestingOnMacbook 00:24:47 erm 00:24:47 wrong page 00:24:57 oh no wait 00:24:59 olsner: that's the page 00:25:02 olsner: see drawbacks 00:25:05 no virtual terminals :-) 00:25:08 But Grub-EFI is so modern! 00:25:27 is it actually possible to force a bios build??? 00:25:43 aha 00:25:49 --with-platform=pc should do it 00:26:05 (is that "ok" to do? who knows let's find out) 00:27:48 In file included from kern/err.c:23: 00:27:48 ./include/grub/i18n.h:28:5: error: "ENABLE_NLS" is not defined 00:27:48 make: *** [kernel_img-kern_err.o] Error 1 00:27:49 make: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs.... 00:27:51 In file included from kern/misc.c:26: 00:27:53 ./include/grub/i18n.h:28:5: error: "ENABLE_NLS" is not defined 00:27:55 lol. 00:31:27 ok seriously. even a grub 1 image would do 00:31:41 i'll try a grub floppy. who knows 00:31:44 it just might work 00:32:47 let's see if that worked 00:32:48 refit time 00:33:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexa_Ray_Joel 00:33:23 [[On December 5, 2009 Joel ingested a quantity of Traumeel, a homeopathic alternative to ibuprofen.]] 00:33:31 Worst. Suicide attempt. EVER. 00:33:34 That's WikiNotable! 00:33:42 And HILARIOUS. 00:33:42 Oh, I thought it was ... without context. 00:33:48 On December 6, 2009 Joel ate breakfast. 00:37:31 This is a perfect demonstration of the way that selection pressures in our culture are working against intelligence. 00:37:33 I wouldn't call that a suicide attempt 00:38:13 People clever enough to realise that you should use evidence-based suicide do not go on to reproduce, while those who opt for complementary and alternative suicide live. 00:38:29 j-invariant, well "attempt" is certainly relevant. 00:38:41 Note: that thing about selection is tongue in cheek. 00:38:43 [[Within a month after her Traumeel incident, on December 31, 2009 Joel publicly posted[51] that she wanted to help young girls deal with what she termed "heartbreak-related depression,"[52] which term, it was noted, "does not currently exist as a clinically diagnosable form of depression."]] 00:38:58 elliott, like CWC and his date ed classes. 00:39:22 she's just an idiot, now she goes on to make depression even less respectable as a serious mental healht problem 00:39:47 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:40:47 They had that public mass-suicide-by-homeopathy thing, http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php 00:41:15 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:41:17 has that had much of an effect? 00:41:45 -!- elliott has joined. 00:41:53 Didn't work. 00:42:07 Wait, I have another idea. 00:42:07 all these fucking "cuts" everyone complains about, but the NHS still prescibes homepathy and ancient chinese "stick needles in the guy to heal him" 00:42:22 yeah nhs support of homeopathy is fucked 00:42:38 Great idea: aquapuncture - combination of the ancient chinese art (?) and homeopathy! 00:42:47 I'll make a forture^H^H^H help lots of people! 00:42:52 :D 00:42:52 I thought the government basically said "no, it doesn't work, but we're still going to use it." 00:43:01 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:43:10 Take a needle. Dilute it 10^60 times. 00:43:15 XD 00:43:19 Stick it into the patient. 00:43:47 Iridopuncture, aka needles-to-the-eye. 00:43:50 Although that would probably cure you of pins and needles, not anything else. 00:44:10 Like-cures-like is applicable to EVERYTHING. 00:44:25 Shot? Dilute a bullet 10^60 times! 00:44:56 Minecraft homeopathy. 00:45:13 Phantom_Hoover: Broken foot? Dissolve someone else's foot in acid, then start diluting that. 00:45:26 (Remember to break it first, though.) 00:46:41 Defend yourself against creepers! Bucket + gunpowder, then repeat 100 times! 00:53:50 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:55:48 -!- variable has joined. 00:56:49 -!- elliott has joined. 00:56:57 I've had a sudden burst of reasonableness and found a USB stick 00:58:50 Phantom_Hoover: Can the world float? 00:59:04 elliott, not sure. 00:59:09 CAN IT FLOAT ON PIN 01:03:09 Phantom_Hoover: Who was the hippocampus? 01:03:29 John. 01:03:38 That explains it. 01:08:07 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: Changing server). 01:19:26 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:25:54 -!- elliott has joined. 01:29:15 "One of the arguments for functional programming is better modular design. By analyzing publications advocating this approach, in particular through the example of a framework for financial contracts, we assess is strengths and weaknesses, and compare it with object-oriented design. The overall conclusion is that object- oriented design, especially in a modern form supporting high-level routine objects or “agents”, subsumes the fu 01:29:15 nctional approach, retaining its benefits while providing higher-level abstractions more supportive of extension and reuse." 01:29:18 --Bertrand Meyer ... 01:29:21 I disagree :-P 01:29:23 One of the arguments for functional programming is better modular design. By analyzing publications advocating this approach, in particular through the example of a framework for financial contracts, we assess is strengths and weaknesses, and compare it with object-oriented design. The overall conclusion is that object- oriented design, especially in a modern form supporting high-level routine objects or “agents”, subsumes the fun 01:29:23 ctional approach, retaining its benefits while providing higher-level abstractions more supportive of extension and reuse. 01:29:24 erm 01:29:25 http://se.ethz.ch/~meyer/publications/functional/meyer_functional_oo.pdf 01:30:04 "(We share the reader’s alarm at the unappetizing nature of the examples, especially coming from a Paris- based author. The sympathetic explanation is that the presentation was directed to a foreign audience of which it assumed, along with unfamiliarity with the metric system, barbaric culinary habits. The present discussion relies on the assumption that bad taste in desserts is not a sufficient predictor of bad taste in language an 01:30:05 d architecture paradigms.)" 01:31:31 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:51 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:42:19 -!- rderos has joined. 01:42:23 -!- rderos has left (?). 01:43:40 -!- elliott has joined. 01:48:42 [[When people want to emphasize how pathetically far we are from proving P≠NP, they often use the following argument: for godsakes, we can’t even prove that NEXP-complete problems aren’t solvable by depth-3, polynomial-size circuits consisting entirely of mod 6 gates! 01:48:42 But no more.]] 01:52:28 * oerjan wonders who "they" are :D 01:53:41 oerjan: the set {Scott Aaronson} :D 01:54:24 so he uses the royal "then", i take? 01:54:30 *"they" 01:54:34 oerjan: clearly :D 01:55:24 a subtle megalomania mixing the styles of queen victoria and julius caesar 01:57:12 bleh ... it seems you have to have a gpt thing to do usb w/ macbook air 01:57:18 wonder if fedora's stuff would do it 01:58:10 * oerjan looks at the actual blog post and detects _possibly_ a tiny tinge of sarcasm there... 01:58:16 oerjan: no shit :P 01:59:45 elliott: I feel slightly wrong writing in a functional style in K&R C 01:59:59 ais523: Er, wow. What. 02:00:01 purely for the purpose of making a "record this, do something, put it back to the original value" wrapper nest easily 02:00:02 ais523, cool! 02:00:08 ais523: Why are you ... 02:00:25 ais523: I mean, K&R? And ... 02:00:25 and as for K&R C, I was writing a hacked version of NetHack for RNG manipulation purposes 02:00:29 and NetHack's written in K&R C 02:00:37 ais523: protoize that shit for AceHack :P 02:00:39 (it predates C89, so you can hardly blame it for that) 02:00:54 any reason not to? 02:01:00 I haven't done things like reindenting or protoizing so existing patches apply wel 02:01:02 *well 02:01:10 boring :) 02:01:20 the indentation style's currently a mix of my two-space, and NetHack's four spaces for one level, tab for two levels 02:01:42 ais523: ...see, um 02:01:51 ais523: not following an existing codebase's indentation style 02:01:58 ais523: I'm afraid I'm going to have to kill you for the benefit of everyone. 02:02:00 elliott: means I end up not mixing tabs and sapces? 02:02:05 you can't have things both ways round 02:02:15 ais523: at least keep the same indentation width 02:02:23 (4, since they probably assume tab=8) 02:02:28 yep, in some cases I've been interspersing eight spaces for two levels 02:02:47 ais523: but don't do any two-spacing 02:02:51 mostly because telling the editor to save mixed-tab-and-space, while entirely possible, would mean repeatedly changing it there and back 02:03:01 time to try out this ubuntu usb stick again 02:03:11 ais523: erm emacs can condition on the path of the file 02:03:20 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:03:48 (for the logs) I know, but that would be a pain to set up 02:03:58 -!- elliott has joined. 02:04:00 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 02:04:00 -!- elliott has joined. 02:04:01 grrrrrrrrrrrrrr 02:04:02 as I have far too many NetHack source trees, in all sorts of places 02:04:05 -!- coppro has joined. 02:04:06 GRR 02:04:09 GRRRGRGRGRGGRGR 02:04:14 -!- coppro has quit (Client Quit). 02:04:35 elliott: what? 02:04:40 ais523: stupid mac 02:05:04 hmm, why do places like BBC News always credit YouTube or Wikipedia rather than the actual author of the content? 02:05:07 ais523: basically, as far as i can tell, the only way to boto from a usb stick is to have it gpt-partitioned 02:05:09 *boot 02:05:12 ouch 02:05:16 "Booting Windows or Linux from an external disk is not well-supported by Apple’s firmware. It may work for you, but if it does not work, there is nothing rEFIt can do about it." 02:05:17 ais523: which can be done ... with a fedora specific, linux-only, RPM package 02:05:20 (Just saw that on a page.) 02:05:26 so basically 02:05:28 my options are 02:05:34 - see if i can get that working here (endless unpredictable pain) 02:05:35 or 02:05:39 you need a Linux-based program in order to install Linux? 02:05:41 - £60 on external SuperDrive 02:05:55 ais523: clearly! ubuntu has instructions for setting up a usb stick on a mac but they don't work and from what i'm reading, cannot possibly work 02:06:02 hmm, what about running Fedora in a VM, and using that to reformat the stick? 02:06:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:06:24 ais523: that... sounds like it could rapidly become more than £60 worth of pain 02:06:26 Can't you partition it with just gdisk? 02:06:39 fizzie: partitioning is easy -- getting the files on there and making it bootable, I have no idea ho 02:06:40 w 02:06:45 apparently it has to be HFS-partitioned too 02:06:51 -!- coppro has joined. 02:06:54 so regular bootloaders won't work? 02:07:05 fizzie: Feel like making a USB stick image for me? :-P 02:07:07 oops 02:07:12 that was totally my fault 02:07:17 All it'll require is alien, an Ubuntu ISO, and PATIENCE! 02:07:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:07:29 I think I'll instead sleep on it. :p 02:07:45 ais523: You're far too loyal not to help out, right? 02:09:19 ais523: THAT IS NOT THE SOUND OF REASSURANCE 02:10:25 ais523: re youtube/wikipedia 02:10:37 ais523: because those seem like real, respectable businesses 02:10:42 ais523: real sources 02:10:46 Coolguy1272 doesn't 02:12:11 [[Steve Wozniak is an out and out self proclaimed geek. As the co-founder of Apple, he has given the world products aimed at making our life easier and more fun.]] 02:12:17 I ... don't think Woz stayed on for very long, BBC 02:13:05 bleARGH 02:13:07 *bleargh 02:14:20 ok seriously 02:14:25 it's got to be possible to do this 02:14:35 elliott, is the last ep of season 1 good? 02:14:43 Sgeo: Does it matter? You can't skip any. 02:14:49 ais523: I don't suppose I can convince you to try and install one package and try out a command ...? 02:18:34 Well, most of the good episodes were near the end of the season 02:20:31 coppro: what about YOU, I can depend on you can't I 02:23:51 -!- augur has joined. 02:24:45 elliott: What assistance do ou need, citizen? 02:25:08 coppro: one (1) .rpm converted to .deb and installed by you with the help of ``Alien'' conversion tool; 02:25:19 coppro: and one (1) Ubuntu Live CD ISO downloaded; 02:25:29 coppro: and one (1) conversion of this ISO to a disk image using that Linux-only tool 02:26:02 knowledge of RED Hat is above your Clearance, citizen. 02:26:12 Report for termination immediately. 02:26:15 Thank you, and enjoy your day. 02:26:21 coppro: p 02:26:25 *alien -i foo.rpm 02:26:27 coppro: DAMMIT I'MA GO INSANE 02:26:34 sdfghjk, 02:26:36 nm, 02:26:37 zxcvbnm, 02:26:43 can't even bother with references INSTALL THE PACKAGE ;_; 02:26:50 why do you need your ISO converted? 02:26:58 coppro: to install ubuntu. 02:27:05 to what though 02:27:10 coppro: this. 02:27:38 what is this 02:27:44 coppro: um, a computing machine? 02:27:52 oh wait it's a usb stick image? 02:28:01 coppro: no it's a live cd that you can turn into a usb stick image 02:28:02 lol just stick a partition table in front of it 02:28:08 coppro: yeah um it needs to be gpt 02:28:10 and hfs-formatted 02:28:15 gpt? 02:28:15 and i have no idea what bootloader it installs 02:28:17 and hfs? 02:28:18 coppro: apple shit 02:28:32 lol not happening 02:28:37 (maily cos I'm lazy) 02:28:45 coppro: there _is_ a reason I mentioned the .rpm, you know 02:28:49 but also because you wouldn't do it for me 02:29:00 i would actually if yelled at enough 02:29:03 how much do i have to tell 02:29:20 "livecd-iso-to-disk --mactel --reset-mbr foo.iso blah" NAG NAG NAG 02:29:29 NAG NAG NAG NAG NAG NAG NAG 02:29:33 fffff 02:36:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:38:52 -!- augur has joined. 02:42:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:42:46 -!- augur has joined. 02:43:17 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:43:34 -!- augur has joined. 02:48:56 augur: stop it 02:49:33 elliott: sorry. ive been trying to fix my mbp screen 02:49:36 i broke the glass :( 02:49:44 augur: pray to steve jobs 02:49:46 and yet i followed the professional instructions! 02:50:18 augur: steve jobs. 02:50:30 :P 02:51:18 elliott: surely you have another computer with linux 02:51:27 (that was a statement) 02:51:54 coppro: I do, yes, but uh ... hmm. 02:51:58 Why amn't I doing taht. 02:52:00 oh well 02:52:03 getting a friend to do it instead 02:56:07 hmm, has thedailywtf's forum actually been patched to allow only haikus? 02:56:14 as opposed to a mod doing it manually? 02:56:21 (the sidebar forum, not the replies on the articles) 02:56:38 ais523: er, wow 02:56:41 well, not only haikus, but posts of approximate haiku length 02:56:56 you can write a short plaintext sentence which has a similar length 02:57:09 http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/21032.aspx 02:57:10 not very haikuy 02:57:20 From henceforth, all messages posted that are not in the form of a Haiku will be deleted. 02:57:20 You have been warned. Have a nice day. 02:57:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:57:29 :D 02:57:34 ais523: seems like it's some kind of bug 02:57:36 maybe 02:57:38 ah 02:57:46 ais523: and then it was turned into a haiku rule 02:57:56 oh, I see 02:58:09 CS has decided only to allow very short posts due to being broken 02:58:31 and the mod's response was, instead of fixing the forum, to institute a "haiku rule" to patch around it 02:59:06 now if there was only some website I could post on to report curious perversions in information technology... 02:59:10 ais523: the REAL wtf... 02:59:12 :D 02:59:15 because that definitely qualifies 02:59:56 ais523: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/21032/241597.aspx#241597 03:00:29 You can now type more text into the subject line (255 UTF-16 characters by the looks of it) than you can in a post (~180 was it?) 03:00:41 elliott: saw it already 03:01:09 CS? 03:01:14 community server 03:01:16 community server 03:01:18 ah 03:01:21 a horrible asp.net abomination 03:01:22 a much-maligned forum that somehow got even worse 03:01:26 the real wtf is the daily wtf 03:01:35 seriously, why did it have to be alex that started it? 03:01:39 he's so close to being the wtf himself 03:03:35 ais523: is Username a mod? 03:03:42 he has rather ...suspicious... stats 03:03:45 he/she 03:14:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:28:05 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:32:47 ais523, have you determined the exact allowable length yet? 03:52:26 According to Star Trek, all aliens want human girls 03:52:35 Or, human-looking girls 03:56:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:58:30 I want to make up the new URI scheme for IRC, to get rid of problems with "IRC" scheme. The new one can be "IRCP" (for "Internet Relay Chat Protocol") and it accepts the username and password field, host, port, and so on. For example the URL for this channel would be: ircp://irc.freenode.net:6667/join?%23esoteric 04:01:31 yuck 04:02:56 To represent the registration of this channel: ircp://irc.freenode.net:6667/cs/info?%23esoteric 04:04:10 coppro: We don't sell that. 04:06:51 Why would you have a password in a URI? 04:07:28 Sgeo: You probably wouldn't, but you could if you needed to. (Other URI schemes do support username/password) You might also include just the username. 04:10:54 ircp:// URIs shall be case-insensitive (except the password) 04:11:49 it would make far more sense to call this channel ircp://irc.freenode.net:6667/%23esoteric 04:12:32 and for instance, its info would be ircp://irc.freenode.net:6667/%esoteric?info 04:12:58 coppro: I understand, but I don't like that much. 04:13:25 it's certainly better than putting something dumb like chanserv in there 04:13:46 coppro: But it is the chanserv info, isn't it?? 04:13:56 but that info might not be provided by chanserv 04:14:13 also you're making "cs" be a magic string there 04:14:27 coppro: But then the servers do not have a standard way of retrieving it, and it won't work. 04:14:36 zzo38: yes, that's a difficulty 04:14:51 zzo38: but you don't have a standard way of asking for "cs" info 04:15:55 coppro: Yes; the URL for the channel info would be secondary level specification, not a primary level; primary levels are the more standard ones. Secondary levels are used when the primary ones are insufficient. 04:16:33 (As if they are two separate RFCs or two separate chapters in one RFC, for example.) 04:18:12 Also, the channel type symbol (#&!+) must be URL encoded using % and hex code, except for ! which can be written as either "!" or "%21". The # & + MUST be written using "%23", "%26", "%2b", respectively. 04:32:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:41:24 There is a command on this IRC server I didn't know, the CHANTRACE command. 04:43:13 Just put ChanServ in the URI 04:43:33 Hmm, no, that sucks 04:43:43 ChanServ might not be the only thing gthat varies 04:43:50 gVaries, now using glib 04:46:50 Sgeo: It is why I have specified that there is "primary level" and "secondary level". 05:21:45 What is a algorithm for calculating standard deviation (using integers only)? 05:37:58 that sounds difficult, considering the average of integers is not necessarily an integer... 05:38:37 quintopia: I could also just calculating fixed point using integers 06:15:26 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:57:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:04:36 * Sgeo wants combat rations 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:25 * chantrace :Outputs a list of members in #channel in ETRACE format, with the classname 08:08:25 * chantrace :replaced by the server the users are on. 08:08:29 @ zzo 08:12:01 Sgeo, you have a cloak on - right? 08:12:19 variable, why? 08:12:24 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 08:12:38 Sgeo, because I think I just found your IP 08:12:46 *gasp* 08:12:55 Sgeo, not a major issue 08:13:03 but I want to know if cloaks actually work 08:13:24 variable, well, try finding the IP of someone who's cloaked. 08:13:43 Sgeo, your not? 08:14:04 Unless it's possible to be cloaked without one's knowledge, I am not. 08:14:08 What made you think I was? 08:14:28 Sgeo, misreading my /whois 08:14:31 sorry 08:14:50 * Sgeo shrugs 08:15:00 cloaks work if you identify before joining a channel 08:15:14 I had one for a while myself 08:15:24 coppro, I know how it works - I misread something 08:15:25 but now I have a hostname I'm not interested in cloaking 08:15:34 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:15:50 heh 08:16:01 hrm 08:16:16 damn you, grad courses 08:16:34 coppro, what courses? 08:17:39 variable: there's a course on logic next term I may sit in on 08:18:05 it's called "logic for comp. sci." by the registrar 08:18:10 coppro, cool 08:18:11 which leaves me guessing as to what it actually is 08:18:35 my favorite subject is logic :-} 08:19:11 but if it's anything like the previous logic course taught by the same prof (Advanced Logic in Computer Science) 5 terms ago, then it may be worth trying to maneuver my way around the dumb undergrad course 08:23:01 I'm not sure how far above my head it starts 08:23:22 but if it isn't too far, I would definitely love to take a real logic course rather than the blargh undergrad one 08:23:46 (provided, also, that I can convince necessary people that it is a good idea for me to replace the mandatory undergrad course with the grad one) 08:24:17 coppro, worst case just audit the class 08:29:26 variable: if I can find the time, sure 08:29:38 and/or if I can follow along 08:33:37 `/win 3 08:34:06 No output. 08:39:54 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 08:43:22 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:50:08 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:58:31 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 09:01:10 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:36:45 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 09:39:00 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:54:01 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 09:56:52 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:19:20 ais523: that... sounds like it could rapidly become more than £60 worth of pain <-- (for logs): why £60 specifically? 10:39:03 My parents insist that I never stopped talking since I was nine months old, but this video tape of me at my first birthday has a distinctive lack of any meaningful vocalizations :P 11:01:07 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 11:04:17 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:13:41 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:16:43 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 11:31:20 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:10:49 Gregor, :D 12:18:41 -!- augur has changed nick to mauna. 12:18:49 -!- mauna has changed nick to augur. 12:21:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:21:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 12:21:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:24:06 -!- wareya has left (?). 12:37:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:42:52 oerjan! 12:42:54 WAR! 12:43:48 -!- WAR has joined. 12:44:07 That would have been a lot better if it hadn't had my name in the whois. 12:44:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 12:45:24 I wanted to make the "plain.cards" file and "texnicard_format.tex" file also available in the book, so I wrote a program in AWK. 12:45:38 -!- WAR has quit (Client Quit). 12:45:47 I don't think I have written a program in AWK before. 12:47:16 It works; but maybe I have done something 'improper' by not knowing programming with AWK, before. I don't know. 12:49:06 -!- zzo38 has set topic: nice stuff at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | retards at voxelperfect.net have expired | historical documents at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or via hg at http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/. 12:49:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: turds at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | turds at voxelperfect.net have expired | historical turds at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or via hg at http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/. 12:49:58 TURDS 12:50:32 -!- zzo38 has set topic: TURDS at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | TURDS at voxelperfect.net have expired | historical TURDS at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or via hg at http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/. 12:51:11 Good enough. 12:54:15 Is this considered a 'proper' program in AWK, or is there some things which I have done badly and could be improvement? http://sprunge.us/eLcc 13:02:50 why is SPARC system programming is soo undocumented 13:03:13 nooga: I don't know. Are you trying to write a program? 13:04:01 OS 13:15:37 beh 13:33:11 nooga, hm, how does SPARC deal with the register window thing when it comes to running out of registers. That is: what happens when call stack gets too deep? 13:33:41 i don't know because i can't find the goddamn docs 13:33:45 ah 13:33:57 something like intel's manual 13:34:37 I was wondering if it was handled by the hardware itself or if it invoked an exception handler which had to deal with it 13:40:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:40:45 going to reboot for kernel upgrade on the computer running this irc bouncer 13:40:47 bbl 13:40:56 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 13:49:27 * Sgeo wonders if it may be worth it to wipe out Ubuntu and just use Tinycore for his Linux needs 13:53:27 IIRC running out of register window "depth" generates an exception, and then an OS exception handler will do some stack-pushery. 13:54:48 nooga: http://developers.sun.com/solaris/articles/sparcv9.pdf not good enough for your purposes? 14:05:54 -!- sftp has joined. 14:06:52 fizzie: lol, i'm stupid 14:07:04 i found that earlier and forgot that i have it :G 14:22:03 -!- Vorpal has joined. 14:43:45 Vorpal: "An overflow [of the register windows] causes a spill trap that allows privileged software [read: the OS] to save the occupied register window in memory, thereby making it available for use." 14:50:17 What are algorithms for calculating such things as standard deviation, etc? 14:54:56 zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation#Rapid_calculation_methods 14:58:04 That's a bit of a misleading title there, since it seems more about doing a running standard deviation; for the std of a particular n-point data set, I don't think there's typically anything much more cleverer than the straight-forward O(n) just-you-know-calculate-it thing. 14:59:32 The algorithm described there should work. 15:00:07 How large do you expect $s_2$ to become in case of a large set of cards? 15:01:17 fizzie: well the clever thing about it afaik is that you can calculate it in one pass... 15:01:51 zzo38: well it should be less than N times the square of your maximal value... 15:02:02 oerjan: Well, yes, that is what I was alluding to with the "running" part. 15:02:13 (this is of course rather trivial) 15:02:27 fizzie: mhm 15:03:14 Anyhoo, quite often doing two passes is not a problem either. 15:03:34 The see-also "computing variance" article is a bit more comprehensive. 15:13:51 fizzie, ah 15:14:50 fizzie, presumably there is some trap when going the other way too? (In order to unspill when required) 15:15:11 Yes, there's a "window underflow" trap too. 15:17:12 (And there are some complications because the OS needs to make sure one process can't manage to peek into the register windows of another process.) 15:17:22 fizzie: you seem to know SPARCs pretty well 15:18:25 fizzie, hm... You mean like, store/restore windows on context switch? 15:19:05 if so, not sure how much it differs from normal storing/restoring of registers on other platforms (such as x86) 15:19:08 Vorpal: It doesn't need to, because there are separate registers to mark some register windows belonging to "current process" and others to "other", and separate traps for those. 15:19:40 nooga: Not really, I've just read a bit back when doing our compiler course, which had a sparc backend. 15:19:52 fizzie, but what if you have three processes? 15:20:17 Then you'd have to manually keep track, but there's still some windows "owned" by the current one, and some by the others. 15:21:38 fizzie, so the OS will spill/unspill as required then? 15:22:34 fizzie, how much does this enforce a specific calling convention btw? I remember reading that (on x86/x86-64 at least) GHC uses a custom calling convention. 15:22:41 Something like that. As far as I can determine, the idea is that if the current process only uses K register windows, you don't need to spill/fill the N-K unused ones. 15:23:32 fizzie, right, but if it uses all N then this would mean more switches to kernel mode? 15:23:43 which are usually slow on most architectures 15:25:03 I don't know about the tradeoffs, but there probably is one, yes. You could even have the OS maintain some sort of a per-process guesswork as to how many "clean" register windows it's going to prepare in advance on a context switch. 15:25:04 Is there an algorithm that works better to calculate it if the sample values are already sorted low to high? 15:25:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:26:20 fizzie, btw did I mention that mcmap bug? If you place a torch high up (about altitude 120 or above) you get a garbled mess on the map in a block around that area. Garbled both on normal map and on topo map. 15:26:25 (I don't think there is, but if you know of it, tell me) 15:26:52 zzo38, better than what? 15:27:02 Vorpal: Yes, I saw that, though I already managed to forget it. 15:27:08 zzo38, and to calculate what? 15:27:50 Standard deviation, I assume. 15:27:58 fizzie, well, if you happen to have time to test it... 15:28:06 fizzie, ah 15:28:58 See, if you had written this in the github issue list, I wouldn't have managed to forget it. I'll try to take a look at some point. It's probably related to the "max-alt trees cause flickering map-garbage" thing I saw on my local server tests. 15:29:56 I know since it is sorted, it can easily calculate minimum, maximum, median. 15:33:07 Which other statistics would be useful for a set of cards (such as for Magic: the Gathering and similar games)? 15:35:13 Histograms of different categorizations? (I seem to recall MtG cards can be grouped into lands/creatures/instants/whatevers.) 15:36:06 fizzie: Yes, the category by card type. 15:36:57 I can do like that, I already have grouping. 15:37:49 Another question, about notation: if $Q_2$ is median, does $Q_0$ mean the minimum? 15:38:15 I /think/ so, but Q_0 is not normally defined. 15:38:46 From Wikipedia: "The 25th percentile is also known as the first quartile (Q1); the 50th percentile as the median or second quartile (Q2); the 75th percentile as the third quartile (Q3)." 15:39:21 It doesn't mention $Q_0$ or $Q_4$ (or $Q_5$, but that doesn't make sense). 15:39:43 Yes, so Q_0 and Q_4 could easily be read as the maxima and minima, but they're never actually defined. 15:40:05 Well, "maximum and minimum", I suppose. 15:41:00 I could just add a note next to the equation that explains this notation. 15:42:41 -!- elliott has joined. 15:42:43 Vorpal: Based on a quick source-glance, I don't seem to be verifying the y values in world.c:block_change, and an overflow there could possibly ruin both the heightmap and the surface map. I'll take a closer look later. 15:43:00 (I want to see what sort of numbers the server sends before blindly fixing that.) 15:43:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_derivative_test 15:44:30 More tales of my adventures in the maths class: when I pointed out that the teacher's proclamation that f''(x)=0 at a point said nothing about its nature, I was told to shut up. 15:45:12 The class being taught this were then informed that such a function would never come up, even after I pointed out that x^4 is clearly an example. 15:46:44 Phantom_Hoover: you must be SO POPULAR 15:47:37 elliott, I am actually banned from setting foot in the maths department. 15:48:03 You might mess up the dangerous maths experiments. 15:49:24 Mathemagical monsters: http://deltafunktio.animeunioni.org/dft_eka_osa.gif (Disclaimer: you... uh, might have to be able to read Finnish to understand any of that.) 15:49:31 "Safety: the natural logarithm is an irritant and should be washed away if it comes into contact with the skin." 15:50:30 fizzie: I think it's better without. 15:51:28 "INTEGRAALI" 15:55:10 fizzie, are the Finnish words for "oxygen" and "vulva" really only a letter apart? 15:55:35 Both are required breathing for continued existence. 15:58:57 Phantom_Hoover: I don't think so. But the words for "vulva" and "cone" (as in "pine cone", not as in "geometric shape") are. 15:59:19 That's even BETTER. 15:59:31 stop being a cont 16:00:01 Phantom_Hoover: As are the words for "oxygen" and a very colloquial term for the penis. 16:00:10 s/$/inuation!!/ 16:01:21 ("häpy", "käpy" and "happi", "heppi", respecitvely.) 16:01:54 fizzie, all similar! 16:02:06 i take it finns are fond of happiness 16:02:13 There's more than a single-letter difference between häpy/happi, though. 16:02:24 They *are* quite close, I guess. 16:02:38 Häpy heppi, heppi käppy. Käppy happi, happi häpy. 16:02:43 Erm. 16:02:50 Häpy heppi, heppi käpy. Käpy happi, happi häpy. 16:04:00 Sharing consonants does not two words alike make. 16:04:01 no?? 16:04:06 Deewiant: does 16:04:13 shut up finnish l|_|z3r 16:04:35 Deewiant, consonants and similar phonetic properties if you don't know Finnish orthography! 16:04:52 We have several words where the double-consonant (or a double-wovel) makes a semantic difference. Like "taka" → "takka" → "taakka"; "back" (mostly as a prefix, like "takapuoli" = "backside") → "fireplace" → "burden". 16:05:16 How do you pronounce double 'k's? 16:05:30 takka on takataakka 16:05:39 Well, it's a stop consonant, only longer-duration one. 16:05:56 fizzie, you can have duration for a consonant? 16:05:58 [k:] 16:06:25 Phantom_Hoover: Why couldn't you? 16:06:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_consonant#Length 16:06:45 english has a few double-consonants too 16:06:50 bork 16:06:54 fizzie, OK, a voiceless plosive consonant. 16:06:58 fizzie: Can you prove that Finnish isn't just a gigantic prank on the rest of the world? 16:07:10 Can you prove that English isn't? 16:07:18 Or C++! 16:07:32 Deewiant: Maybe it is, but if it is, it's a lot less funny than Finnish 16:07:34 *Finnish. 16:07:45 More sad. 16:08:00 Deewiant, it's more what you get when you take about 3 languages and mush them together without thinking. 16:08:10 English is like "A man walks into a bar. He is an alcoholic and it's destroying his family." 16:08:44 `translatefromto en fi A man walks into a bar. He is an alcoholic and it's destroying his family. 16:08:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL21sCWfnbE&t=1m8s "tuki" vs "tukki" 16:09:01 Mies kävelee baariin. Hän on alkoholisti ja se tuhoaa hänen perheensä. 16:09:30 (Disclaimer: I don't know if the guy knows what he's talking about, I just searched for an example) 16:11:32 The mode in Wikipedia is different from TeX; it has some commands that TeX doesn't and TeX has many commands that Wikipedia doesn't. Most equations probably works, though. 16:11:32 Wait, is a long stop just one in which you wait for a bit before removing the obstruction from the airway? 16:11:50 zzo38, this is because it is, in fact, LaTeX, 16:12:01 *EVILBLOATeX 16:12:02 Something like that, yes. 16:12:49 Phantom_Hoover: Does LaTeX not have any \def command? 16:13:19 elliott, so LaTeX is A Bad Thing as *well*? 16:13:29 IS THERE NOTHING THAT DOESN'T SUCK IN YOUR WORLD 16:13:31 Phantom_Hoover: No -- zzo38 just hates it. 16:13:35 Phantom_Hoover: I think LaTeX is great. 16:13:40 elliott, oh, right. 16:13:57 Well, there *is* nothing that doesn't suck in zzo's world, unless he made it himself. 16:14:54 Phantom_Hoover: Isn't that just what the Wikipedia link I pointed at says: "In a geminate or long stop, the occlusion lasts longer than in normal stops. In languages where stops are only distinguished by length (e.g. Arabic, Ilwana, Icelandic), the long stops may last up to three times as long as the short stops." 16:15:15 fizzie, that is indeed where I got it from. 16:15:41 Oh, I thought you were trying to describe what Deewiant's video was like. 16:15:46 But phonetic language confuses me, not least because "stop" and "plosive" both seem to mean the same thing for no readily apparent reason. 16:16:03 (I find Plain TeX easier to understand and use; but there are some things I don't like in TeX and some things which I think are missing. In general it is good, though.) 16:16:11 That guy was going on about glottal stops, so I suspect he may have no idea what he's talking about. 16:16:15 However, "ex-stop" and "explosive" are a very different thing. 16:16:25 elliott, Swedish has double consonants too. With different effects on the pronunciation than for Finnish though. And sometimes with semantic differences. (For example sil = sieve, sill = herring) 16:17:12 Vorpal: What kind of effect, do you have to pronounce it longer? 16:17:21 Or, louder? 16:17:31 zzo38, it modifies the preceding vowel. 16:18:02 Vorpal: OK. 16:18:40 `wl sv en sil 16:18:41 For Finnish it'd just be mostly a lenghtening. Compare "hila" (wicket/grate/grid) and "hilla" (cloudberry). 16:18:43 Sieve 16:19:07 elliott, as I said yes 16:19:18 You are probably not lying entirely! 16:19:29 Our phonology is a bit on the simplistic side. 16:19:38 Unlike EVERYTHING ELSE. 16:20:08 Ooh, Wikipedia has examples, I don't need to invent any: 16:20:09 tuli = fire, tuuli = wind, tulli = customs 16:20:09 muta = mud, muuta = other (partitive sg.), mutta = but, muuttaa = to change or to move 16:20:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_phonology#Length 16:20:42 in Swedish the word "hade" (meaning "had") is pronounced as if it had been written like "hadde" btw. 16:20:55 english has a few double-consonants too ← not any with syntactic meaning AFAIK. 16:21:28 tuli = fire, tuuli = wind, tulli = customs <-- the last meaning I wound suspect is imported from Swedish, since sv:tull = en:customs. Either that or a common source for both. 16:21:42 well, not meaning. Word 16:22:17 Phantom_Hoover: I mean double consonants that are pronounced longer 16:22:55 I think it's mostly when combining a word that ends with the same consonant the other word starts with 16:23:44 and then Swedish has the fun word pairs like tomten/tomten, anden/anden and so on. (Same spelling, different pronunciation for different meanings. VERY subtle differences.) 16:24:14 (isn't it just a change in stress or whatever it is called?) 16:24:20 Yes. 16:24:45 in those examples, it's tonal differences rather than stress 16:24:49 olsner, ah 16:25:20 olsner, are there such examples with change of stress then? 16:25:59 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:26:25 -!- elliott has joined. 16:27:54 [Of Finnish:] "Thus, omenanani "as my apple" contains light syllables only, and has primary stress on the first syllable and secondary on the third, as expected. In omenanamme "as our apple", on the other hand, the third syllable (na) is light and the fourth heavy (nam), thus secondary stress falls on the fourth syllable. --" Nice example words there. 16:28:35 Vorpal: I think stress is what happens with our double consonants 16:28:52 olsner, ah, but no cases with same spelling then? 16:29:00 Also, "omenanamme" = "as our apple", "omenan amme" = "apple's bathtub". 16:29:14 Vorpal: not that I can think of, but there probably are 16:32:21 fizzie, hah 16:32:28 Here's (in Finnish) two words that are spelled identically, but the stress differs: "-- for example the compound puunaama, meaning "wooden face" (from puu "tree" and naama "face"), is pronounced [ˈpuː-ˌnɑː-mɑ] but puunaama, meaning "which was cleaned" (...preceded by an agent in genitive, "by someone"), is pronounced [ˈpuː-nɑː-mɑ]." 16:33:11 fizzie, "[...](...preceded by an agent in genitive, "by someone")[...]" <-- a cleaning agent? 16:33:18 ;) 16:33:52 Unfortunately the stress-indicating bold font parts got lost. 16:33:58 ah 16:34:06 fizzie, well the channels filter bold I think 16:34:12 channel* 16:34:16 ls 16:34:19 err wrong window 16:34:31 That should've been [*ˈpuː-ˌnɑː*-mɑ] vs. [*ˈpuː*-nɑː-mɑ]. 16:38:02 fizzie, not as bad as the English words which are spelt identically but pronounced differently. 16:39:17 Phantom_Hoover, such as? 16:39:28 I can't think of any example atl 16:39:29 atm* 16:39:30 Read and read. 16:39:37 Tear and tear. 16:39:51 ah 16:40:06 Which are both because "ea" can be pronounced 'eh' or 'ee'. 16:41:20 hm, Does any other language have the sje-sound of Swedish? I seem to remember reading it was unique 16:41:49 well, Finland-Swedish (or whatever the English name of it is) has it obviously 16:41:59 Hmm... I wonder if fan #3 in this computer just doesn't have speed measurements available or why does lm-sensors say "0 RPM ALARM" about it... 16:42:47 Ilari, open case to check. I know that in my computer it is due to not having a case fan. (only CPU fan, PSU fan and GPU fan, and sensors only report about the CPU fan) 16:42:53 Vorpal: does it though? some dialects has it as sh, seem to recall finland-swedish doing that too 16:43:11 olsner, they have a different variant of it, that's true. 16:44:55 olsner, hm arguably the sje-sound in kjol and stjärna are slightly different. At least in whatever dialectal mix I speak. 16:45:13 kjol doesn't have a sje-sound 16:45:23 olsner, what do you call that sound then? 16:46:50 Today I learned AWK programming. 16:47:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:47:09 Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sje-sound#Colognian 16:48:15 Deewiant: "Whether or not there is a relation between the Swedish /ɧ/, and the Kölsch /ɧ/, is not known. While none seems to have been established, comments (e.g. on page 18 in [3]) suggest that, the choice of ‹ɧ› might well have been based upon a misunderstanding." 16:48:21 Deewiant, does that text say they are different or the same. It seems to discuss that but I'm not good at linguistics. 16:48:33 (basically I got lost in the jargon) 16:48:37 Deewiant: This is what you get when you let languages go all natural. 16:48:54 fizzie: I know, I didn't say that it was in another language, I just linked it 16:49:01 And yes, that's what you get 16:50:05 Vorpal: I would call it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_postalveolar_fricative but wikipedia claims swedish kjol has a different sound 16:50:14 hm 16:50:42 namely, this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_fricative 16:51:24 olsner, also stjärna vs. sju. A quick experiment seems to indicate the position in the mouth of the sje-sound in those two words is somewhat different. 16:51:27 As a speech recognition guy, I think I'll petition the World Government (in our inevitable dystopic future) to instigate a "designed to be phonologically as simple as possible to distinguish" language instead. Maybe with just two (or very few) as-spectrally-different-as-possible sounds, and then all words are simple concatenations of those with none of this context-sensitive crap. 16:52:27 fizzie: I propose mindlinks. 16:52:28 Vorpal: yeah, it merges with the vowel a bit, dunno if it's enough of a difference to call it different sounds 16:52:35 olsner, hm 16:58:14 I've heard in a few places that this is the ugliest Finnish sentence(-pair) evar: "Älä rääkkää sitä kääkkää! En rääkkääkään!". (Translated, vaguely like: Don't torture that old guy! I'm not!) 16:58:26 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:58:44 -!- LORD_NIETZSCHE has joined. 16:59:13 -!- elliott has joined. 16:59:54 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:00:06 fizzie, hah 17:00:16 elliott, you seem to have connection problems today? 17:00:17 yeah 17:00:28 Vorpal: um i think i've gone offline exactly twice? 17:00:30 who is LORD_NIETZSCH 17:00:31 who is LORD_NIETZSCHE 17:00:35 no clue 17:00:38 it's me 17:00:44 can his nick stop shouting 17:01:21 MOSFET 17:01:58 -!- LORD_NIETZSCHE has left (?). 17:07:05 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:07:26 Who was Lord Nietzche? 17:07:30 What's updog? 17:07:30 What's updog? 17:09:36 http://userweb.kernel.org/~warthog9/april1/2010/ please tell me kernel.org actually looked like this on apr 1 17:11:36 -!- j-invariant has joined. 17:15:54 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:24:08 elliott, the upside-down K is the height of stupidity. 17:24:24 It is rather silly. 17:26:05 http://www.complexitygraphics.com/#708027/-About-Contact <3 17:27:49 [[Graduated from Moscow State University in Social Psychology, and then studied in High Academic School of Graphic Design. ]] 17:27:51 Pfff. 17:28:01 INFERIOR SUBJECTS. 17:28:03 indeed 17:28:09 her knees are too angular anyway! 17:28:23 elliott, wha? 17:28:26 Phantom_Hoover: Meme. 17:28:52 elliott, wha? 17:28:55 wha? 17:29:14 Wow, I never realised that the Oolite theme gets way better if you wait a bit. 17:29:40 Phantom_Hoover: Define theme. 17:29:45 Oh, the tune. 17:29:46 Yes. 17:29:46 Indeed. 17:31:30 Phantom_Hoover: guy in #anagol just said php is better than haskell 17:32:05 This I must see. 17:32:16 Phantom_Hoover: nothing else was said 17:32:31 elliott, well at least tell them that they're an idiot! 17:33:02 Phantom_Hoover: http://sprunge.us/YTNc 17:33:24 17:31 Endres: um, but I think for me it is so 17:33:24 17:32 Endres: maybe not better, but... easier maybe? 17:33:35 not even gonna bother arguing ... 'specially since obvs not a native 17:33:47 easier? lol 17:33:56 Wait, wasn't *your* first language PHP? 17:34:21 Phantom_Hoover: i think it was technically basic that i never tried to understand and just copied from a book 17:34:26 PHP should be evaporated together with every dedicated PHP programmer 17:34:31 but um, pretty much php, yeah 17:34:33 :/ 17:34:37 to be fair i was 8 ok? 17:34:48 elliott, oh, so it was child abuse by someone. 17:34:57 no, i chose to learn it myself 17:35:01 i was 10 when i tried Pascal, don't worry elliott 17:35:07 after learning that $favourite_website was written in PHP 17:35:21 Phantom_Hoover: i used odbc to communicate with an Access database in PHP 17:35:23 I'm not kidding 17:35:38 man 17:35:42 I need some alcohol to forget that now 17:35:47 elliott, wait, so you were using Windows as well? 17:35:59 Phantom_Hoover: this was before ubuntu even existed 17:36:00 nooga, Pascal was my first language soon! 17:36:04 *too 17:36:06 Phantom_Hoover: also we had a winmodem 17:36:09 so linux is like ... no 17:36:23 Followed soon by Python, then about a week later by CL. 17:36:54 Phantom_Hoover: You are the luckiest bastard. Seriously. 17:37:02 elliott, naaa. 17:37:07 soon ... "F 17:37:09 :F 17:37:13 what's CL? 17:37:15 Phantom_Hoover: OK, Pascal is kind of shit, but it's not a /hideous/ language. 17:37:23 Phantom_Hoover: Python is lame but really, it's not _that_ bad. 17:37:29 Phantom_Hoover: And then Common Lisp which is pretty damn good. 17:37:31 j-invariant: common lisp 17:37:39 Phantom_Hoover: I stayed with PHP for about _two years_. 17:37:51 Do you have *any* idea how warped my grey matter became? 17:37:55 elliott, it was when you were asked to conceive and implement a sort algorithm by yourself. 17:38:16 Phantom_Hoover: Hm? 17:38:21 With a teacher who as far as I know was a Latin teacher who later became the computing teacher. 17:38:23 I had no idea why you would ever abstract anything. No idea how to modularise code. 17:38:32 No idea that mixing code and, you know, output was in any way sub-optimal. 17:38:44 I rarely used functions. 17:38:50 I was _awful_. 17:38:53 Two years. 17:38:54 elliott, that is indicative of bad PHP coding - not necc. the language itself 17:38:57 Or so. 17:39:06 although I will say that most PHP examples are HORRIBLE 17:39:10 variable: Perhaps. But PHP certainly lends itself to bad coding style. 17:39:11 elliott: don't worry 17:39:14 variable, yes, but when the language is definitely not conducive to that style... 17:39:14 elliott, agreed 17:39:18 variable: And even when it's coded perfectly, it's still a horrible language. 17:39:36 elliott, it is not horrible for its purpose 17:39:40 Yes. It is. 17:39:58 uhmit is horrrible for every purpose 17:39:59 trust me 17:40:05 variable: what purpose 17:40:11 i code php for *cough* money 17:40:16 As someone who stayed in the awful confines of web development for too many years, let me say that yes, it is. Absolutely horrible. 17:40:18 FWIW, I actually got my self-conceived sort algorithm off the ground when I used CL. 17:40:29 elliott is right 17:40:30 Hell, if you want to, I don't know, put the current date and time on a page. Even Perl is better. 17:40:51 But I gave up on doing it in Pascal when noöne could work out how the hell you got a function to return an array. 17:41:00 Phantom_Hoover: I don't think you can even do that 17:41:10 elliott, nor did the teacher. 17:41:29 variable: http://catseye.tc/about/php.html 17:41:46 The fourth paragraph of that is perhaps my favourite thing ever. 17:41:54 He basically told me to either use globals or alter the array passed to it. 17:42:05 Already Phantom_Hoover knew the putrid stench of mutability! 17:43:05 Yes, at that point I thought "forget that", then did it in Python and then CL. Of course, I mutated the array passed for those programs, too, but I was what, 13? 17:43:31 The algorithm was O(n^2), as well! 17:43:36 I like how you're apologising for not being a rabid functional weenie by 13. 17:43:39 i feel that i need to design a language that is extendable and elastic like scheme, concise like ruby or something and has a compiler that generates fast machine code 17:43:42 and then 17:43:47 i will code only in this language 17:43:55 nooga: And is purely functional? 17:43:57 Naw, thought not. 17:44:08 useless then 17:44:09 elliott: not Haskell 17:44:17 nooga: There are purely-functional languages that are not Haskell. 17:44:22 Haskell isn't too extensible, either. 17:44:26 i don't like them 17:44:40 i like mixed paradigm languages, like ruby 17:44:43 Well, not in the same sense that Scheme is. 17:44:57 nooga: Irrelevant; answer the question: mutable data? 17:45:34 immutable = useless 17:45:39 nooga: Ha ha ha. 17:45:42 Your language sucks. 17:45:53 I LIKE to mess with arrays in-place 17:46:08 It amazes me how people still think, in 2010, that they should create a language that practically actively works against a programmer. 17:46:23 Apparently the world has not yet learned that you don't put in "features" merely because they're easy to implement at the lower level. 17:46:30 Otherwise you throw away abstraction. 17:46:44 look 17:47:17 i know haskell is awesome and it's compiler is a piece of art 17:47:27 art LOL 17:47:36 lol 17:47:38 I would have claled it something else 17:47:39 clearly you have never seen ghc code 17:47:44 nobody gives a shit what the compiler looks like 17:47:55 * Phantom_Hoover shivers at GHC 17:47:55 anyway i don't even like haskell all that much, it has many flaws, but that's irrelevant 17:48:03 the fact is that mutability is a serious, crippling design flaw 17:48:07 elliott, what flaws? 17:48:13 I can't use haskell :/ 17:48:21 And "it's not Epigram" does not count. 17:48:27 Phantom_Hoover: It's not Epigram. 17:48:55 Phantom_Hoover: Typeclasses are restricted in probably-unavoidable ways but I don't like them anyway; no module system (a la ML, with functors (not that kind of functor); this is VERY important for abstraction and reuse) 17:49:00 and i like to have more expressive C with poorman's, basic oo, closures and ability to mess with the language itself 17:49:01 Some syntax quibbles 17:49:05 Phantom_Hoover: and the fact that I don't like the IO monad 17:49:11 also, records with named fields are handled badly 17:49:12 etc ... 17:49:19 elliott, what's wrong with the IO monad? 17:49:32 Phantom_Hoover: it's imperative. 17:49:35 and impure. 17:49:40 ehh 17:49:51 Phantom_Hoover: If you disagree, see http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional/ 17:50:11 it's funny that ppl try to make languages that work AGAINST common sense and our machines architecture 17:50:33 nooga: Programs are for humans first; machines second. P.S. That machines are imperative is a mistake of history. 17:50:38 See http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/. 17:50:48 i know i know 17:50:55 nooga: And "common sense" is a term people use when they wish to portray an opinion as immediately obvious, without giving any logical reasoning to this. 17:50:59 if we had purely functional machines it would be sooo cooool 17:51:03 We do. 17:51:12 yeah... like 17:51:28 MIPS, x86, eeee, SPARC.... eee 17:51:35 none of them 17:51:41 nooga: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ 17:51:51 but nobody uses it! 17:51:55 nooga: if we had OS X and Linux it would be soo cooool 17:51:58 elliott, so what way of doing IO would you prefer? 17:52:01 nooga: but we don't, because 90% of people use Windows! 17:52:03 drat! 17:52:06 too bad OS X and Linux don't exist 17:52:09 go home everyone 17:52:11 Phantom_Hoover: FRP 17:52:29 Phantom_Hoover: (but that question isn't really relevant; you do not have to suggest something better to hold the opinion that something is bad) 17:52:52 17:50 < elliott> nooga: Programs are for humans first; machines second. P.S. 17:53:00 elliott: hmmmm 17:53:09 j-invariant: almost direct sicp quote :) or was it R5RS... whatever 17:53:13 it's true wherever it came from 17:53:14 elliott, but the fact that there seems to be no viable alternative makes complaining rather pointless. 17:53:18 Phantom_Hoover: FRP 17:53:29 I know. 17:53:44 Phantom_Hoover: and that's sort of like dismissing the inventors of ${first purely functional language} because "Well, you haven't offered any replacements for ALGOL constructs like 'while'!" 17:54:15 It _is_ relevant to complain that an existing solution is bad; innovation has to handle the rest. 17:54:22 elliott: Ideas for a better "haskell"CCC? 17:54:31 j-invariant: are those Cs typo? 17:54:37 yes 17:55:54 j-invariant: Some syntax tweaks. Make named fields in records be handled much better (make them proper accessor objects, there are a bunch of things on hackage that do good-looking things for this); ditch IO monad replace with FRP integrate into my perfect OS :-P (you can't really do any of this perfectly in an imperative OS); get rid of typeclasses, replace them, and the "module" system, with a proper ML-style module system with modu 17:55:54 le functors and the like -- also maybe some ideas from Ur in this area -- ... 17:55:57 j-invariant: make it epigram ... 17:56:04 j-invariant: ... and then make it epigram some more 17:58:19 bah 17:58:20 j-invariant: also: redo the whole stdlib 17:58:31 j-invariant: proper numeric typeclasses (except, module signatures now, not typeclasses!) 17:58:34 I'm a fan of not having an stdlib 17:58:43 yeah 17:58:47 j-invariant: maybe if you don't want a useful language :) 17:58:51 j-invariant: fine in Coq, not for Haskell ... 17:59:18 The first thing I do in Coq is turn off the massive stdlib and bootstrap my own tools :P 17:59:29 same with haskell 17:59:32 j-invariant: that's just because coq's stdlib is really shitty 17:59:37 me and stdlibs... we don't get along 17:59:40 j-invariant: and also because you presumably don't write actually useful Haskell programs ;) no offence 17:59:42 yes that's the point 17:59:42 HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WRITE ANYTHING WITHOUT IO THAT CAN BE SYNCED WITH OTHER SYSTEMS 17:59:47 they tend to be shitty 17:59:55 nooga: i don't give a shit about your needs/wants :) 18:00:04 in @ it all works out perfectly of course. 18:00:14 how do you imagine purely functional OS 18:00:25 @ 18:00:27 elliott: I mean you should still be able to do "import Numbers" or whatever it is you want 18:00:30 also see Urbit 18:00:43 elliott: but all this e.g. "Num" crap shouldn't be imported to all programs automatically 18:00:45 j-invariant: I think it's useful to have a decent base built in... no point starting with a lot of useless import declarations 18:00:50 j-invariant: Num is crap, but if it were better designed ... 18:00:52 elliott: what @ 18:00:54 nooga: @ 18:01:02 :@ 18:01:07 elliott: I don't think language designers are capable of making a good stdlib 18:01:28 j-invariant: as a language designer I think they are :) but i guess you could call me a language designer and a library designer 18:01:35 also the evolution of the language is at a different pace than that of the stdlib 18:01:43 not in @ :) 18:01:58 @ updates are almost as likely to update the language as the core stdlib, I'd say 18:02:12 @? 18:02:17 @. 18:02:25 Pronounced "@". 18:02:37 @ is a macro expanding to whatever the final name of @ has. 18:02:38 *is. 18:03:14 oh great 18:03:26 does it have a homepage? 18:03:37 no, it has no need of one. 18:03:41 the channel logs are an okay start. 18:04:05 nonexistant, useless 18:04:23 nooga: I don't care about your needs/wants. 18:04:48 elliott, but tonnes of the discussion was in private queries! 18:05:18 hmm, @ has the deficiency of being hard to grep 18:05:41 10.09.19:07:41:54 alise: start writing aliseOS plz 18:05:45 But I thought it was *useless*. 18:08:55 Phantom_Hoover: i hire you to work on it 18:09:09 elliott, no dice! 18:09:15 Phantom_Hoover: why 18:09:54 elliott, because dice killed my family. 18:10:01 Phantom_Hoover: don't use dice then 18:10:13 elliott, I CAN'T 18:10:15 * Phantom_Hoover sobs 18:12:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:13:53 elliott: what about Idirs http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/ 18:14:06 closer to epigram than haskell 18:14:22 j-invariant: i know of idris yeah it seems kinda cool but i'm not convinced that full dependent types are a good thing in practice 18:14:44 huh? TRAITOR! 18:14:47 j-invariant: something like Ur/Web where you could write the /Web part yourself (i.e. code in all those static checks) -- that might be good -- it seems to have like 75% of what you'd want of dependent types in practice 18:14:54 but is more, you know, decidable :) 18:14:58 j-invariant: nonono i love dependent types 18:15:01 cough 18:15:04 j-invariant: for theorem proving and formal verification and shit 18:15:17 j-invariant: i just think a 75% + stuff solution might be best for everything else 18:15:33 elliott: even to use something as simple as quotient types, I think you need full blown theorem proving 18:15:46 j-invariant: are quotient types that useful outside of theorem proving? 18:15:48 serious question 18:17:18 either j-invariant is having a worldview breakdown or has shunned me 18:20:15 actually you killed the whole channel *sputter, argh* 18:20:35 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans oerjan's courpse. 18:20:38 *corpse 18:20:48 He was too good for this sinful earth. 18:21:00 BRAINS. 18:21:13 MY GOD 18:21:20 MY SWATPAN IS MAGICAL 18:21:31 ...if you say so. 18:27:17 elliott: how does this work?: 18:27:25 j-invariant: ? 18:27:44 module Z (inject, (+), (*)) where type Z = (N,N) ; inject :: N -> Z ... 18:28:01 j-invariant: what's that from 18:28:02 j-invariant, is that... Agda? 18:28:11 nah doesn't look like it 18:28:19 elliott, yes it does. 18:28:23 no, it looks like haskell 18:28:26 uh it was meant to be haskell but now that I write it i'm not sure if it means what I wanted it to 18:28:27 i hate 2011 18:28:31 Although with less Unicode and underscores. 18:28:38 j-invariant: are you trying to demonstrate ML modules or? 18:28:39 http://wronki.pl has AD 2011 bug :F 18:28:41 or are you just asking a really vague question 18:28:43 no nevermind 18:28:43 nooga, yeah, it's so BORING. 18:28:48 j-invariant: nono i want to understand 18:28:53 forget that code Ill start again 18:28:57 and i did it ;f 18:28:58 ok 18:29:07 elliott: you can define integers as a quotient on pairs of natural numbers (you know that?) 18:29:16 just as a simple example 18:29:21 ifeq ($(shell expr "$(uname_R)" : '[15678]\.'),2) 18:29:21 OLD_ICONV = UnfortunatelyYes 18:29:21 endif 18:29:24 --git Makefile 18:29:25 j-invariant: yep 18:29:42 j-invariant: well the Works But Kind Of Horrible solution here is obvious 18:29:42 elliott: so in haskell you might well use this approach, not exporting the definition of Z but exporting functions to work with it 18:29:45 j-invariant: just define your own (==) 18:29:45 yep 18:29:59 then MyModule imports that, uses the functions with Z to its hearts content and all is well 18:30:03 yep 18:30:47 by all is well, I mean that every function MyModule can define respects the equivalence relation 18:31:17 yes 18:31:23 you can't prove this in Coq 18:31:29 indeed 18:31:56 this makes no sense 18:32:29 j-invariant: what doesn't 18:32:38 well Coq's knowledge of modules is limited i think 18:32:53 oh wait a second, it might be possible to prove this in Coq 18:33:22 if you implement a non-quotient version of Z and make a map between that and the quotient version 18:34:34 I need to try this out 18:34:55 nooo nooo nooo 18:35:00 boring boring boring 18:35:03 i can't work 18:36:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: All the letters on one side OK). 18:38:37 j-invariant: have you ever looked at Clean? 18:44:07 fizzie, what does this mean? 18:56:48 [DIED] world.c: 108: broken decompressed chunk length: 49 != 50 18:44:30 chunk was meant to be X long, it was Y. i would presume. 18:44:37 hm 18:44:47 elliott, Vorpal, fizzie, Deewiant, has anything actually been done on the MC server? 18:44:50 elliott: no 18:44:54 Phantom_Hoover: since when 18:45:00 j-invariant: ok 18:45:03 elliott, lately? 18:45:07 The last week or so? 18:46:37 fizzie: can i rewrite mcmap in ML or something 18:50:16 elliott, won't that have a lot of overhead if your system is already having some problem with running both minecraft and mcmap at once? 18:50:28 Vorpal: not if I compiled it with MLton :) 18:50:37 elliott, oh? 18:50:55 elliott, what is MLton? 18:50:58 jfgi 18:51:30 elliott, hm is it really that good? 18:51:46 good enough 18:52:06 not like mcmap is hugely resource-intensive or hugely speed-needing 18:52:49 elliott, true, I was thinking of memory overhead 18:53:04 elliott, which is the problem for me with minecraft alone 18:53:23 well, these sorts of compilers usually try and unbox everything. 18:53:36 try to yes 18:53:56 -!- Zuu has joined. 18:54:00 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 18:54:01 -!- Zuu has joined. 18:54:13 how well does it manage though 18:54:47 It's not like unboxing is hard. 18:55:00 * Zuu unboxes elliott 18:57:21 FWIW, I think we should try proper survival multiplayer. 18:57:51 elliott killing Vorpal every 10 seconds by "accident" would be rather amusing. 18:58:14 Phantom_Hoover: When the SMP server was up, I killed ineiros and got 64 mob spawners 18:58:17 Alas, they spawned only pigs. 18:58:36 elliott, there *was* an SMP server up? 18:58:41 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, for something like a day. 18:58:52 Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal is too pussy to go on though. He'd just sit on IRC crying about his house. 18:59:00 (Side note - if we do - it must be on the same map.) 19:02:31 Vorpal: It means the zlib truncation bug I tweeted (but Notch ignored) has actually resulted in an incomplete chunk update. 19:02:59 fizzie: Notch, fix actual bugs? 19:03:04 Hahahahahahahahaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha 19:03:17 Too busy getting internet fellatio from Twitter. 19:03:46 I may fix it to ignore those too, as long as the truncation affects only the light values, which I ignore. 19:03:53 Vorpal: It means the zlib truncation bug I tweeted (but Notch ignored) has actually resulted in an incomplete chunk update. ← what are you responding to? 19:04:05 Phantom_Hoover: fizzie, what does this mean? 18:56:48 [DIED] world.c: 108: broken decompressed chunk length: 49 != 50 19:04:06 Phantom_Hoover, to me 19:04:14 and I'm not a what 19:04:15 Vorpal, WELL DUH 19:05:58 Yes you are. 19:06:22 Notch can't code 19:06:53 nooga, we know that better than you. 19:07:18 j-invariant: have you finished epigram yet 19:07:40 For instance, there's a bug which will crash any server whatsoever and can be done with effectively no privileges. 19:08:01 No, I'm not saying what it is, and noöne else who knows should either. 19:08:34 Phantom_Hoover killed a server with 1,000 people on it permanently once with that bug. True story!* 19:08:35 *False story 19:09:03 true for very false values of 'true' 19:16:05 solution 19:16:07 : 19:16:15 reimplement minecraft 19:16:46 nooga: NETCRAFT 19:16:48 coppro: NETCRAFT 19:16:50 confirms it 19:19:11 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:19:22 where 19:20:21 elliott: I don't work on epigram 19:20:27 j-invariant: well get crackin'! 19:20:30 :) 19:20:32 -!- Zuu has joined. 19:20:35 elliott: parametrized modules 19:20:56 elliott: if I have an isomorphism between M and M', then why don't I have an isomorphism between F(M) and F(M')? 19:21:00 Coq is stupid. 19:21:12 j-invariant: Because Coq is stupid. 19:21:15 does epigram have this? 19:21:25 j-invariant: Epigram has everything! Including kittens! Nah, I don't actaully know. 19:21:26 *actually 19:21:41 elliott: if I could get an isomorphism between F(M) and F(M') I could have something like useful quotients 19:22:08 j-invariant: Doesn't every Coq story starting with "So I had this idea to implement quotient sets..." end with "...and it didn't work"? 19:22:19 maybe I should apply that mu- thing to a language with modules 19:22:26 XD 19:22:38 mu- thing? 19:22:54 it's smoe magic way to turn a programming language into a dependently typed one 19:23:25 they did it to a sort of haskell liek language and got a simple version of agda out 19:23:42 j-invariant: what happens when you apply it to C 19:23:46 if we throw modules in maybe we'll get quotients out 19:23:48 does it kill you and your family? 19:23:50 elliott: well it has to be a lambda calculus 19:23:53 j-invariant: LAME 19:23:58 the C calculus :D 19:24:15 who does NETCRAFT 19:24:32 coppro (coppro is the entire u/waterloo) 19:24:44 is it open? 19:24:54 it's NETTTTTTULATORY 19:24:56 OF HTHE THWEOITH IOEDFJHDFGMLKDFGNHDKL;FGH 19:24:59 check their website for opening hours 19:25:03 elliott: excerice, prove the theorem http://pastebin.com/6P2ydkcU 19:25:03 ;) 19:25:37 Vorpal: ... 19:25:49 j-invariant: for your homework, prove goldbach's conjecture 19:25:56 elliott, well oerjan seemed afk 19:25:59 well,* 19:26:25 j-invariant: hmm 19:26:39 um 19:26:41 j-invariant: (+,N):Z :: (*,Z):Q :: (^,Q):?? 19:27:02 netcraft is an internet services company based in england 19:27:17 nooga doesn't know who netcraft are lol 19:27:23 nooga is young netcraft confirms it 19:27:25 heh 19:27:40 ^ isn't QxQ -> Q though 19:27:41 j-invariant: what's ?? :) 19:27:45 j-invariant: oh indeed 19:27:46 j-invariant: darn 19:27:54 j-invariant: (+,N):Z :: (*,Z):Q :: (^,Z):?? 19:28:22 j-invariant: it's easy to show that you can define an inverse-making-quotient operation given an operator and a set obeying a few rules and that f(+,N)=Z and f(*,Z)=Q... this much is obvious 19:28:32 j-invariant: just wonder what happens when you put in (^,Z) 19:28:32 hmm 19:28:33 well 19:28:38 (a,b) represents a-b or a/b 19:28:38 so 19:28:48 we were talking about minecraft reimplementation, not a company with rainbow logo 19:28:50 (a,b) represents a((^)^-1)b 19:29:08 so is it just log_a(b)? 19:29:59 well 19:30:03 I think so 19:30:11 (1/x,e) = x 19:30:13 er no 19:30:19 j-invariant: you work out what comes out :P 19:31:07 well obviously (x,x^n) = n 19:31:11 hm 19:31:24 waiit 19:31:38 it's actually (x^n,x) = n 19:31:40 obviously 19:31:45 j-invariant: halp 19:31:52 confusion 19:31:57 right okay 19:32:00 (x^n, x) = n 19:32:07 obviously it's log_b(a) 19:32:11 for (a,b)... 19:32:30 hm 19:32:34 is it closed 19:32:45 WHO KNOWS 19:32:57 j-invariant: i think it's just Q with log to be honest... but then Q is just Z with divide 19:34:44 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:34:52 -!- elliott has joined. 19:35:03 j-invariant: does the mu thing have to be a lambda calculus strictly? 19:35:07 or can any similar-ish structure do 19:35:13 I'd love to see a dependent-typed term rewriting language 19:37:04 elliott: Realizability and Parametricity in Pure Type Systems 19:37:25 j-invariant: that'd require actual thought!!!! 19:38:58 We describe a systematic method to build a logic from any 19:38:58 programming language described as a Pure Type System (PTS). The 19:38:58 formulas of this logic express properties about programs. We define a 19:38:58 parametricity theory about programs and a realizability theory for the 19:38:58 logic. The logic is expressive enough to internalize both theories. Thanks 19:39:00 to the PTS setting, we abstract most idiosyncrasies specific to particular 19:39:03 type theories. This confers generality to the results, and reveals parallels 19:39:05 between parametricity and realizability. 19:39:08 awesome 19:39:38 and it cites View from the Left 19:39:45 therefore its' MEGAawesome 19:40:09 j-invariant: i wish i was cool enough to have my own dependent language :p 19:40:27 you can! 19:40:32 j-invariant: o rly 19:40:40 just pick some esoteric PTS nobody cares about and apply this paper to it 19:41:01 j-invariant: bah -- i still want a language based on dual-intuitionistic logic 19:41:05 j-invariant: paraconsistent type system, how cool is that? 19:41:13 function arrow replaced with "butnot" 19:41:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:41:59 j-invariant: hmm maybe i will try hacking up a dependent language 19:42:01 it sounds like fun 19:42:22 elliott: one with delimited continuations? 19:42:31 you can prove stuff that Coq and Agda can't prove if you do that 19:42:31 j-invariant: you can implement them on top of a language can't you? 19:42:35 huh 19:42:47 j-invariant: i don't wanna start doing tactics and shit so maybe proving isn't what i should focus on for now :) 19:42:49 but that sounds fun 19:42:52 there's this paper about it I don't really get it but an implementation would be interesting 19:42:52 * elliott waits for ghc to finish compiling 19:43:01 I just mean typing out lambda terms to prove things 19:43:07 right 19:43:50 j-invariant: maybe i can write a lazy specialiser for it and i will have succeeded in creating the Best Language :) 19:45:20 j-invariant: I wish Scheme was a better language because Ponzi Scheme is an awesome name 19:45:30 heh 19:45:42 i mean i have to write it 19:45:45 even though i don't really want to 19:46:03 ok so scheme is actually pretty nice 19:46:13 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php#Implementation i'm proud of this code, for all the awful shit it does it's pretty 19:46:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:47:11 Grawr.\ 19:47:33 pikhq: I found out how to use stow with packages that refuse to even give you the time of day if you change the prefix. 19:48:06 elliott: Oh? 19:48:59 pikhq: ./configure --prefix=/usr/local && make && make install DESTDIR=root && mkdir /stow/foo && cp root/usr/local/* /stow/foo 19:49:10 Just about everything supports DESTDIR so this works great. 19:49:17 (Even Python's setup.py does.) 19:50:34 pikhq: Do I win a prize? 19:53:55 j-invariant: you know that de-bruijn-for-bound-stuff-names-for-unbound-stuff? 19:54:10 huh 19:54:14 j-invariant: that the epigram people do 19:54:23 I am not a number, I am a free variable 19:54:25 or something 19:54:34 what about it 19:54:36 j-invariant: am i weird if i think we should just get rid of all non-local variables and just rewrite everything as a single lambda application 19:54:38 i.e. 19:54:41 x=y;foo=bar 19:54:43 should just be 19:54:47 yes LOL 19:54:52 (\x->(\foo->...)bar)y 19:54:57 j-invariant: not as in, the actual code we write! 19:55:01 but i think compilers should do it like that 19:55:04 so i'm weird right 19:55:18 i mean an assignment like that is basically a let around the whole program 19:55:20 if everything is a lambda, then you can't step inside an abstraction cayou? 19:55:25 and let x=y in z is just (\x->z)y 19:55:28 j-invariant: why not 19:55:38 because it's just another lambda in side? 19:55:47 j-invariant: that isn't really what i mean 19:55:51 j-invariant: i don't mean every object should be a lambda 19:56:09 j-invariant: I just mean that there should be no assignment or anything, it should just be lambda application to a constant :p 19:56:19 and have everything be de bruijn 19:56:26 it's simpler to process :D 19:56:58 if you can get away with it, do it! 19:57:13 "I'd like to thank this /r/programming thread http://bit.ly/eNygOX for helping me adjust to senescence." --pigworker 19:57:20 guess what thread it is 19:57:24 I can guess :P 19:58:18 j-invariant: one issue with doing bindings in this way is that the order you choose is totally arbitrary ... and everything that passes some parameters to a module, if you add something to that module, all those break because the order changes 19:58:21 BUT THAT'S BORING PRACTICAL PROBLEMS 19:58:42 obviously we just redo every single piece of code every time a single byte changes 20:03:49 j-invariant: quick, what should i put in my silly language 20:04:10 quotients 20:04:25 j-invariant: that sounds really painful to do :> 20:05:16 j-invariant: (is it?) 20:05:22 no it shouldn't be difficult 20:05:34 j-invariant: can i add them after everything else or should i really do them first 20:05:45 it just needs to be done early 20:05:48 hmm 20:08:59 j-invariant: i am getting slightly disillusioned with all the provers :-. 20:09:01 *:-/ 20:09:16 elliott: so am I but I try to hide it 20:09:22 haha 20:09:39 j-invariant: let's go back to ridiculously dynamically typed, late-bound languages and write unit tests 20:09:48 unit tests? HAH 20:09:53 I don't /test/ 20:09:58 j-invariant: Unit tests prove goldbach!!!!!! 20:10:02 i ran 10^30 of them 20:10:04 all passed 20:10:17 j-invariant: (if I keep this up I'll turn into Zeilberger) 20:10:20 that's such a weird thought 20:10:21 * pikhq is still completely blown away by the recent PS3 hack... 20:10:29 or Chaitin... "Add an axiom!" 20:10:49 what PS3 hack? 20:11:15 Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/rwmHO.png The PAXEL 20:11:18 elliott: oen of my concerns is how large scale programming can work 20:11:35 j-invariant: The hack by fail0verflow, which contains all of Team Twiizers, detailed at 27C3 recently. 20:11:39 elliott: category theory may be the solution to it 20:11:40 j-invariant: this is why i was talking about a 75% solution for all the not-just-pure-proving work 20:11:42 j-invariant: Well, rather, the *set* of hacks. 20:11:56 j-invariant: like, I don't look at Idris or Ur and think "will this scale to bigger things..." 20:11:58 j-invariant: The most hilarious one is that they have the signing key now. 20:12:18 wow 20:12:52 You see, Sony signs things using ECDSA, which requires, as part of the algorithm, a cryptographically secure random number. 20:12:59 Sony, however, uses a *constant* instead. 20:13:10 haha 20:13:14 Which allows you to get the private key using simple algebra. 20:13:49 "Sony seem to have just randomly sprinkled crypto on the PS3 as magical pixie dust. Wackier crypto usage MUST be more secure, right? Right?" 20:13:52 So, the PS3 is as hacked as it is possible to be. 20:15:14 that is incredible 20:15:19 They also discovered a handful of buffer overflows in un-reflashable code that would allow one to make a mod chip that Sony couldn't do anything about, but that kinda pales in comparison to it being *literally impossible* for Sony to do anything about everyone being able to sign anything. 20:15:22 Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/rwmHO.png The PAXEL ← WANT 20:15:36 pikhq: I guess the PS3 devs grew up writing websites that don't santies SQL inputs 20:16:15 Phantom_Hoover: there's actually a mod for it lol 20:16:18 except it looks slightly less silly 20:16:28 elliott, WE MUST INSTALL IT 20:16:29 j-invariant: obviously we can solve that with DEPENDENT TYPES 20:16:32 Phantom_Hoover: client only 20:16:50 elliott, NOOOO 20:17:01 It is, in fact, more hacked than the Wii now. 20:19:55 Phantom_Hoover: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14765180/AnimalCrafting/screenshots/animalcrafting16.png WORST TEXTURE PACK 20:20:34 elliott, what is that stuff meant to be? 20:20:42 Phantom_Hoover: Gravel. Seriously. 20:20:54 http://i.imgur.com/1Z1Bw.jpg omg that reminds me i need to install ambient occlusion. and painterly. 20:21:28 That animalcrafting16.png reminds me of one of the early 3D Sonics, for some reason. 20:21:44 it's animal crossing methinks 20:22:01 Phantom_Hoover: lol the reddit thread is filled with OMG WHAT TEXTURE PACK 20:22:04 it's painterly you idiots 20:26:03 wut 20:26:18 what 20:26:40 so what;s with this reimplementation 20:27:09 nooga: what reimplementation 20:28:22 Phantom_Hoover: On CMOS in Minecraft: "This is the best idea in the history of minecraft. Or at least slightly behind the idea of the character being able to pee, I think that is important also." 20:28:34 CMOS? 20:28:43 http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45590 20:30:13 fizzie: Phantom_Hoover: http://getsatisfaction.com/mojang/topics/will_here_be_dragons_or_other_flying_mobsters_in_the_air_in_the_berworld#reply_4040443 20:30:17 Oh god I cannot stop laughing 20:30:25 elliott: reimplementation of minecraft 20:30:53 elliott, that is the best dragon ever. 20:31:02 Phantom_Hoover: He is so happy. Unintentionally. 20:31:03 it's funny how everyone left digg for reddit, now people rae leaving reddit 20:31:08 j-invariant: For what :p 20:31:17 Phantom_Hoover: Also nothing like a dragon at all which is just amazing. 20:31:19 there doesn't seem to be anything 20:31:25 Phantom_Hoover: ahahahaha oh god i just saw his eyes 20:31:27 http://blog.tmorris.net/bye-reddit/ 20:31:29 Phantom_Hoover: I thought the eyes were the nostrils 20:31:31 at the front 20:31:47 j-invariant: that was the guy who said he was going to kill himself in all the irc channels he was in a few years ago. 20:31:59 j-invariant: that's what I know him for :-P 20:32:04 * elliott reads post 20:32:35 hehe 20:32:45 :D 20:33:01 j-invariant: i wonder why because of quad's post ... it's supremely idiotic but isn't it obvious that nobody actually agrees with him? 20:34:04 heh ... just checked hacker news 20:34:08 that idiot kroc camen is at #1 20:34:12 IS NOWHERE SAFE 20:35:03 kroc camen? 20:35:07 Phantom_Hoover: this idiot. 20:35:08 Cabal-1.10.0.0-8b2e042500a42b47b6b121795bb9262f is unusable due to missing or recursive dependencies: 20:35:09 process-1.0.1.4-2a42745dbb9dd3c8087608f127411124 20:35:22 ?? 20:35:47 j-invariant: what 20:40:00 elliott, which idiot? 20:40:06 an idiot 20:44:29 elliott, that's quite possibly the least specific identifier EVER. 20:44:45 Phantom_Hoover: an entity 20:45:06 *non-obviously-flippant 20:45:41 i flip ants 20:46:03 Phantom_Hoover: please please please get Ubuntu working on this. 20:46:29 elliott, no. 20:46:57 Phantom_Hoover: why 20:47:20 elliott, you betrayed Debian in a Sgeoesque display of infidelity! 20:47:27 Phantom_Hoover: BAH 20:47:30 *Sgesque 20:53:27 elliott, also, you are a stooge of SHUTTLEWORTH 20:53:28 Yay, got that AONT code written (uses AES and SHA-256)... 20:53:35 Phantom_Hoover: *WORTHY SHUTTLE 20:53:56 elliott, YOUR TIME AT HOOVER HEAVY INDUSTRIES IS AT AN END 20:54:04 Phantom_Hoover: OK. Can I still steal TNT? 20:54:04 Ilari, you can be his replacement! 20:54:24 elliott, you can't use company TNT unless you concede that Shuttleworth is EVIL. 20:54:45 Phantom_Hoover: Of course he is. http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/cancomical-lynchpad 20:55:03 elliott, welcome back to HHI! 20:55:17 Phantom_Hoover: I don't want to join until you read every Everybody Loves Eric Raymond comic ever. 20:55:35 elliott, I've read most of them, if not all. 20:55:56 I wonder if there will ever be a new one. 20:56:14 "December 21, 2012 – A new ELER strip is published. 20:56:14 Sometime after, millions of *nix administrators die of a shock induced heart attack, and critical infrastructure is left unmaintained. Major companies go bankrupt as their servers succumb to threats normally mitigated by vigilant admins. The economies of the United States and the European Union collapse. Major military powers blame the incident on Chinese cyberwarfare, and invade the nation. Nuclear war ensues." 20:56:20 I... that... is actually plausible. 20:56:22 Certainly, all the links are purple. 20:56:29 ACTUALLY PLAUSIBLE. 20:57:04 "Checked ELER for update, as friend asked me had I seen latest post. Friend is now on a certain list. Oh yes…." 20:57:28 Phantom_Hoover: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2575#comment-279450 "while arguably, I *am* in fact a world-changing figure" --esr 20:59:22 ESR SO CRAZY 20:59:37 The fact that the man is allowed anywhere near a gun is something I will never understand. 21:00:13 [[His highly respectable work and expertise in computer technology has been all but overshadowed by his batshit insane wingnut tendencies in the wake of 9/11]] — RW on ESR 21:00:19 Highly respectable HAHAHAHAHAHA 21:00:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:02:11 * elliott corrects 21:02:48 Pleasepleaseplease do that. 21:03:05 Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Eric_S._Raymond&diff=707432&oldid=695156 21:03:10 Phantom_Hoover: ADD A NEW REVISION ON TOP BEFORE HUMAN REVERTS ME 21:03:39 "The worst part of all is that he blames Alan Turing for his judicial punishment and suicide, even though Raymond, like every other computer programmer, owes Turing his career." 21:03:42 He does? Ha 21:03:47 Phantom_Hoover: AD DA REVISION ADD A REVISION QUIIIICK 21:03:50 IT WON'T LAST LONG 21:03:55 what the hell? 21:04:02 el 21:04:05 elliott, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Eric_S._Raymond#Utter_madness 21:04:12 he doesn't owe Turing anything 21:04:18 what an absurd statement 21:04:24 j-invariant: it's rationalwiki it can't be right 21:04:25 Note David Gerard's statement. 21:04:26 or sane or reasonable or 21:04:51 elliott, OTOH, he was saying that "Turing was asking for it", which is appalling beyond words. 21:05:01 Phantom_Hoover: Who cares — the article is already crap anyway. 21:05:04 [[Um, no. INTERCAL is one of the things that is ESR working in his sphere of powerful competence.]] 21:05:04 "His highly respectable work and expertise ..." ~~> "His questionable work and expertise in computer technology ..." hahahaha 21:05:09 lol 21:05:19 Phantom_Hoover: Add a damned revision to the article already so mine doesn't get reverted. 21:05:24 Just tweak the formatting of my edit :P 21:05:25 HE MERGED SOME GIT HUBS SO POWERFULLY COMPETENT 21:05:33 Phantom_Hoover: ^^^^ 21:05:33 Er, s/HUBS/THINGS/ 21:05:49 Phantom_Hoover: Also TO BE FAIR he did originally write C-INTERCAL, but the code wasn't very ... good. 21:06:56 pikhq: So, is there any actual obstacle to using stow? 21:07:17 elliott, done. 21:07:21 Phantom_Hoover: yay 21:07:36 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, you removed the amusing bit. 21:07:40 Oh, just footnoted it. 21:09:35 elliott, [[I do not like this article because it does not sufficiently acknowledge what ESR is good at and famous for. He wrote large chunks of libgif and libpng - without him your web browser would be a much sadder place. He has code in every Linux-based gadget you use - if his contributions disappeared, your broadband modem and even your television would be bricks.]] 21:09:43 — David Gerard 21:09:49 Phantom_Hoover: Seen, yes. What of it? 21:09:58 elliott, is this complete crap? 21:10:21 Phantom_Hoover: I think it's factually correct (probably), but it doesn't really matter much. 21:10:29 Parsing GIFs and PNGs is not some huge innovation. 21:10:49 Phantom_Hoover: Also it doesn't invalidate my footnote which states that it's /hard/ to find such a list which is true. 21:11:15 I have some kind of negative thought linked to David Gerard's name in my head but I don't know why. 21:12:48 j-invariant: maybe i'll use my crazy Transaction type in this lang 21:13:56 Fun stuff with AONT: Pad messages to fixed size and do AONT on each. Pick HMAC key for each message, chunk messages and compute HMACs for chunks and append the MACs to chunks. Then perform random in-order merge of chunks. If there are enough chunks per message and at least 2 messages, that's difficult to untangle without HMAC keys. 21:14:34 elliott, David Gerard has been... not trolling, but being a pain at Less Wrong. 21:14:51 For extra fun, couple chunks containing random data can be added... 21:14:52 elliott: Uh, other than symlinks sucking, no. 21:15:06 Phantom_Hoover: Howso? 21:15:14 pikhq: I wonder how the GNU System guys didn't think of using DESTDIR. 21:15:27 elliott: They do. 21:15:35 elliott, not sure. Look at the RW LW articles: he wrote a great deal of them. 21:16:05 Phantom_Hoover: You mean [[Less Wrong]] on RationalWiki? 21:16:07 Basically, that allows making data undecode multiple ways with possibilty of junk that just doesn't undecode. 21:16:12 elliott, yes. 21:16:24 Phantom_Hoover: Scared to do that — Reddit Atheists react explosively when confronted with people who are actually rigorous about it. 21:16:33 elliott, he's also part of the Wikipedian Bureaucracy. 21:16:39 Found that by Googling. 21:16:46 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:17:28 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 21:17:44 Phantom_Hoover: '"rationalists"'. 21:17:49 Oh scare quotes. 21:17:55 pikhq: Then ... why is it blocking a release? 21:18:24 Phantom_Hoover: Aren't you an admin? 21:18:43 Phantom_Hoover: Oh wait, I forgot, RW goes by the Wikipedia Administration model, where admins are given endless powers but actually using them is taboo. 21:18:45 elliott, at RW? Sure, but the criteria for that are more or less the same as for autoconfirmation. 21:18:47 /troll 21:19:13 elliott: A) They don't *want* to use stow. B) stowfs does not work yet. 21:19:17 http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=sysop&limit=50 21:19:20 Phantom_Hoover: Dear god how many are there. 21:19:26 elliott, a few hundred. 21:19:36 Phantom_Hoover: Over 500. 21:19:38 FWIW, I'm also a bureaucrat for reasons unclear to me. 21:19:43 Phantom_Hoover: Do they realise that they have almost as many sysops as Wikipedia? 21:19:46 Or maybe even as many? 21:19:51 elliott: C) That's not actually a major blocker; a major blocker is that HARDLY ANYTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS WITH IT AT ALL. 21:20:05 pikhq: From using stow I actually kinda like it... 21:20:14 elliott, you fail to understand that a significant driving force behind RW's policy is being the opposite of Conservapedia. 21:20:23 Phantom_Hoover: RATIONALWIKI PREDATES CONSERVAPEDIA (iirc) 21:20:35 Yeah, the symlink thing is the only really *bad* thing about stow, and it's not *that* bad... 21:20:37 elliott, erm... no it doesn't. 21:20:46 Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't? Well that explains ... a lot. 21:21:13 Phantom_Hoover: I guess nobody realised that the opposite of Conservapedia is LiberalUnjustifiedNutjobPedia. 21:21:33 elliott, naw, that exists too, it's just *profoundly* unfunny. 21:21:47 http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page 21:21:52 Phantom_Hoover: It exists and it's called RW. Also isn't that Lumenos' thing? 21:22:10 Imagine a female zzo. Then imagine her attempting to be funny. 21:22:11 If you say "but RW is humorous", well ... I can't bring myself to take Conservapedia seriously either. :P 21:22:33 Phantom_Hoover: "Libertarians aren't keen on illegal immigration, but liberals always sort them out." Err? 21:22:46 elliott, don't let it trouble you. 21:22:54 Phantom_Hoover: It just ... ist hat meant to be funny? 21:22:55 I don't get it 21:23:07 elliott, again, it was written by zzo's distaff counterpart. 21:23:21 Phantom_Hoover: Too man contractions 21:23:58 zzo? zzo38? 21:24:30 *many 21:24:33 Phantom_Hoover: I know. 21:24:35 Phantom_Hoover: I meant in the text. 21:24:37 Of Liberapedia. 21:24:44 Phantom_Hoover: [[If you indicate your disagreement with the local belief clusters without at least using their jargon, someone may helpfully suggest that "you should try reading the sequences" before you attempt to talk to them. The "sequences"[6] are several collated series of Yudkowsky's blog posts, and there are eighteen sequences in all. The indexes for just the four "core sequences"[7] are somewhere north of 10,000 words. Those 21:24:44 link to over a hundred and fifty 2,000-3,000-word blog posts. That's about 300,000-450,000 words for those four. For comparison, Lord Of The Rings is 454,000 words.[8] As such, "You should try reading the sequences" is LessWrong for "Godspeed" "fuck you."]] 21:24:49 Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr "Reading is hard"? 21:25:28 elliott, well, saying "read this hefty tome" in an argument isn't a very good idea. 21:26:08 Phantom_Hoover: It's sort of like expecting you to have read the Bible on a Christian debate forum ... (I know, I know, that choice of analogy is just giving ammo but I don't care.) 21:26:11 Phantom_Hoover: As bad as RationalWiki is the Richard Dawkins forum is worse. :p 21:26:54 elliott, of course. RW is at least /ostensibly/ without any opinion on religion. 21:27:32 Phantom_Hoover: In attempting to interpret that sentence of yours, my brain stumbled upon a world where the definition of "ostensibly" is "not". 21:27:41 Phantom_Hoover: Disturbingly that seems to be the real world. 21:28:38 elliott, well, there are quite a few theists, and they get along fairly well. 21:28:47 Phantom_Hoover: O god, the RW article mentions the Amanda Knox case. 21:29:14 Hmm? 21:29:21 Murder of Meredith Ketcher. 21:29:34 Phantom_Hoover: As far as I can tell the entire Richard Dawkins forum is united in considering Amanda Knox 100% guilty without actually presenting any evidence at all or... anything; the courts agree. Less Wrong is of the opposite opinion. 21:30:03 I can't actually understand _why_ the RD forum agrees except that Reddit Atheists have this strange tendency to put undue trust in authority, presumably because they also believe all the most popular scientific theories without actually looking into them themselves. 21:30:11 Such a strange world. 21:30:18 (And by that I mean the whole world.) 21:30:48 elliott, trusting the prevailing scientific theories is just the only way to get by in the world. 21:30:55 Phantom_Hoover: Certainly. 21:31:01 Phantom_Hoover: But it doesn't mean you should generalise that to "trust authority". 21:31:34 Phantom_Hoover: I don't have any /evidence/ that Reddatheists think this, but it's the only theory I can come up with for things like their absolute unwavering trust in, e.g. courts. 21:32:09 elliott, particularly odd, given that Dawkins himself is no fan of the legal system. 21:32:34 Phantom_Hoover: I love Dawkins. It's his fans I'm not too keen on. 21:34:16 Phantom_Hoover: BTW, the Amanda Knox thing is http://lesswrong.com/lw/1ir/you_be_the_jury_survey_on_a_current_event/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/1j7/the_amanda_knox_test_how_an_hour_on_the_internet/; those posts have links to the Richard Dawkins forum, but if you replace "Don't be stupid, everyone can see that Amanda Knox is insanely guilty" mentally that's pretty much the exact content of the RD threads. 21:39:28 It still irks me that they ask for probabilities. 21:42:38 Phantom_Hoover: The LW-consensus is that an aversion to giving numeric probabilities is basically an artefact of human wetware. 21:43:09 elliott, but... I mean, do they have calculations for it or what? 21:43:19 Phantom_Hoover: "Your probability *estimate*". 21:43:46 Phantom_Hoover: It's meant to be rough, just like any guesswork. Numbers aren't inherently "precise". Note: I am giving my perception of the LW consensus, not supporting it or agreeing with it. 21:45:18 eat 21:46:07 Hmm... Returning to that fan problem... At least CPU fan and main case fan both work... 21:46:37 (dunno about PSU fan) 21:46:41 elliott, incidentally, Ilari is now your subordinate at HHI. 21:46:52 Also, GPU fan appears to work... 21:46:56 HHI? 21:46:56 Ilari: Do whatever. The paychecks will come at regular intervals. 21:47:05 Phantom_Hoover: Is it bad to try and establish a utopia of laziness with my position? 21:47:17 Ilari: Hoover Heavy Industries, the most fake corporation of fakeness. 21:47:32 elliott, I'm still not sure what kind of entity it is. 21:47:46 Phantom_Hoover: It's a militacountrypany! 21:47:59 elliott, OMG HHI in Oolite. 21:48:14 Phantom_Hoover: OH GOD 21:48:15 *Oh god 21:48:36 Phantom_Hoover: I would really play an Oolite MMO... I realise it's a non-trivial problem but I would honestly subscribe to a pay-monthly Oolite MMO I think. 21:48:44 Phantom_Hoover: EVE is just so boring and hard to get into. 21:48:48 elliott, yeah, but even then. 21:49:01 Phantom_Hoover: Even then what. 21:49:12 Even in a world of Platonically ideal computers, Braben would sue the hell out of the people running the MMO. 21:49:45 He's hardly easy-going about the rights to Elite. 21:49:46 Phantom_Hoover: Even if the ship names were changed? Presumably it'd take place in a new world anyway. 21:49:55 Phantom_Hoover: You can't copyright gameplay itself. 21:50:07 Change the names, make new designs, redo the UI. 21:50:09 elliott, by this point you can always just look at Infinity and sigh. 21:50:20 Phantom_Hoover: Who cares about landing on planets. 21:50:34 elliott, there is actually an OXP that lets you do that... 21:50:43 Heh. 21:52:06 Although it basically just consists of flying into the planet and getting a docking effect. 21:52:59 What's there? 21:53:52 [[Go to your preferences, select monobook as your default skin and never again worry about the horrible new crap mediawiki wants to inflict on you. That's what I did, anyway. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 15:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC) 21:53:53 :That's the right conservative attitude. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 16:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)]] 21:53:56 I should stop reading RW, it's bad for me. 21:54:01 I even /like/ Vector but COME ON. 21:54:43 Well, Vector does have the font size problem. 21:55:00 "Font size problem"? 21:55:42 What is it with people and No True Scotsman. I see No True Scotsman misused more than I see actual No True Scotsman. 21:55:43 It is well-documented that the text is far far far smaller than Monobook's on many computers. 21:56:19 If Dawkins announced that he was a Christian, and then kept doing EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS HE DID BEFORE FOREVER, and someone said then RD wasn't actually Christian, someone would bring out No True Scotsman. 21:56:38 Just because he publishes books and speaks in public about how all religion is false doesn't make him not a Christian! SCOTSMAAAAAN 21:56:41 Phantom_Hoover: Really? 21:56:45 Phantom_Hoover: s/computers/browsers/. Probably. 21:56:50 I've never seen that. 21:57:17 I did when WP started using it. 21:58:08 Oh god I forgot how amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW2qxFkcLM0 is. 21:58:11 Admittedly, Vector has a smaller font size anyway, but it was more pronounced. 21:59:00 LOL 21:59:25 j-invariant: lol at the trailer? or 21:59:28 yes 21:59:31 this is hilarious 21:59:32 it's amazing :D 21:59:35 i would so have gone and seen it 21:59:45 it's a parody of a real film no? 21:59:56 j-invariant: it's the trailer to "2012", recut with bongos 21:59:59 and 70s 22:00:00 :D 22:00:16 Also stupid scrolling text. 22:02:49 Phantom_Hoover: *awesome 22:02:49 elliott, agreeing with you: that is a horrible misuse of No True Scotsman. It has a very particular syllogistic form that I've almost never actually seen used 22:03:22 the flaw has nothing to do whether someone or something is or isn't in a group :-\ 22:03:26 [[ Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." [Brighton is not part of Scotland.] ]] — Antony Flew (before he got old and crazy) 22:03:29 Best [] note ever. 22:03:37 elliott, true 22:03:49 Oh, he died. 22:04:29 elliott, Antony Flew? 22:04:36 Phantom_Hoover: He did indeed. 22:04:54 Phantom_Hoover: (The populariser of No True Scotsman and famous atheist who later got old and was convinced to agree that God does actually exist.) 22:04:59 (Then he died.) 22:05:02 the pure logical form is: (a) All members of the set of A lack the trait T. (b) X is a member of A (objection) X has trait T (c) X is not a True A 22:05:03 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans elliott to within an inch of his life --==\#/ 22:05:15 Phantom_Hoover: Do you remember when almost all the examples of forms of argumentation on Wikipedia were between Father and (precocious) Daughter? 22:05:19 That was hilarious. 22:05:26 elliott, ...no. 22:05:31 Phantom_Hoover: It was amazing. 22:05:51 SHOW ME 22:05:57 elliott, one thing I'm *really* good at is logic :-} 22:06:00 Phantom_Hoover: In one of them the father argued for tolerance of all beliefs, then the daughter went "Well, you CAN'T say that because you have to be tolerant of the belief that it's BAD to be tolerant!" and oh god 22:06:10 I'll try and find it. 22:06:48 Can't. 22:07:10 j-invariant: I wonder whether I should do this with she. 22:07:43 {-# LANGUAGE TypeOperators, GADTs, KindSignatures, RankNTypes, TypeFamilies, FlexibleContexts, NoMonomorphismRestriction #-} 22:07:45 I think I will 22:07:46 {-# OPTIONS_GHC -F -pgmF she #-} 22:07:50 j-invariant: I call that "Tuesday" 22:08:50 * elliott edits keyboard layout, changes £ to # 22:08:55 nobody talks about money and I need my hash 22:09:18 elliott, have you ever actually seen NTS used correctly? 22:09:24 variable: not that I know of 22:09:25 elliott, HAHAHA YOU HAVE A CRAPPY MAC KEYBOARD LAYOUT 22:09:31 it appears to be a vanishingly rare fallacy in practice. 22:09:46 mostly because there are easier-to-make, more convincing ones. 22:10:03 elliott, yep 22:10:17 "To open kluchrtoxml, you need to install Rosetta. Would you like to install it now?" 22:10:18 Lol, powerpc 22:10:34 stupid VLC and mplayer can't play my DVD 22:10:58 mplayer plays everything, you did something wrong 22:11:24 elliott, it should be mplayer dvd:// -dvd-device /dev/acd0 22:11:25 right? 22:11:30 I dunno :D 22:14:48 elliott: SHE can't do 22:14:48 j-invariant: I wish Type:Type was consistent 22:14:48 data (:/:) (r :: *) :: {Poly r} -> * where Q :: r -> r :/: p 22:14:49 type Gauss = Integer :/: {x^2 + 1} 22:15:01 j-invariant: Indeed, I doubt it can :P 22:15:05 It's not a full language, man! 22:15:23 j-invariant: That's cool though. 22:15:26 But I doubt it's possible :P 22:16:41 j-invariant: nicer than plain haskell though 22:16:43 -!- Behold has joined. 22:20:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:22:19 how does urxvt NOT have unicode support.... 22:22:22 * variable is really confused 22:23:11 variable: it does 22:23:20 j-invariant: :( she can't have types which are dependent on themselves 22:23:27 j-invariant: i.e. a constructor of type T takes a dependent T 22:24:15 elliott, any unicode character shows up as ? 22:24:23 variable: you set encodings wrong 22:24:34 what should I change? 22:24:41 variable: depends :) 22:24:48 elliott: I don't see what you mean 22:24:55 j-invariant: hm i think i did it wrong 22:25:03 Sigma :: {a:Type} -> Term {Pi (TypeI Z) (TypeI Z)} -> Type 22:25:11 the output for that tries to use : as a type operator and stuff so no it's not that 22:25:13 oh does it have to be :: 22:25:14 of course 22:25:15 does that work though 22:25:29 nope doesn't 22:25:30 so how do you do it 22:25:38 elliott, which language are you guys messing around with this time? 22:26:09 nm got it working 22:26:11 Phantom_Hoover: Haskell+she 22:26:43 elliott, what does this "she" do? 22:26:51 Vorpal: she does many things. 22:26:55 elliott, any ideas for what to look for? 22:26:58 elliott, that's what SHE said! 22:27:06 pseudo-dependent types, Pi, pattern synonyms, pseudo-aspect-oriented programming, and IDIOM BRAKKETZ 22:27:10 variable: LC_ALL etc 22:27:15 variable: what program is outputting them? 22:27:17 have you tried "cat" 22:27:17 :p 22:27:48 run locale 22:27:52 that outputs the relevant variables 22:28:00 elliott, when I attempt to copy from xchat to the shell (so I guess its zsh) 22:28:01 and also shows which is in effect for those not set 22:28:06 LC_ALL is empty 22:28:16 they are all ="C" 22:28:18 variable, then there is LANG, LC_CTYPE and so on. 22:28:24 yeah you need to set them to en_foo.UTF8 22:28:27 variable, well of course unicode doesn't work then 22:28:38 Vorpal, I'm new to unicode in the terminall.... 22:28:58 I should set them to en_US.UTF8 ? 22:29:11 variable, set LANG=en_US.UTF-8 22:29:13 I think it is 22:29:27 then all the unset ones default to LANG 22:29:32 so you only need to set LANG 22:29:39 (and LC_ALL overrides all on top of that) 22:29:51 urxvt: default locale unavailable, check LC_* and LANG variables. Continuing. 22:30:08 uh 22:30:09 what 22:30:23 export LANG="en_US.UTF8"; urxvt 22:30:34 btw, you might want to change LC_COLLATE to C again. since the non-C locales often sorts case insensitively. 22:30:38 oh wait - missing a 0 22:30:40 a - 22:30:56 or another alternative: maybe the locale was not generated 22:31:02 I think how varies between distros 22:31:27 nope: adding a "-" works 22:31:32 ah 22:31:35 it seems 22:32:40 j-invariant: aw man 22:32:44 i just messed this up 22:32:52 data Term :: {Nat} -> {Type} -> * where 22:32:52 Star :: {n} -> Term l {TypeI (S n)} 22:32:52 Var :: Fin {n} -> Term {n} ??? 22:33:03 j-invariant: am i going to have to carry around the whole environment of types or something? : 22:33:04 :/ 22:34:28 obviously 22:34:54 j-invariant: in the /type system/? 22:34:58 j-invariant: I'm not Oleg! 22:35:06 but okay 22:35:09 it's just a list 22:35:22 Not Found 22:35:23 The requested URL /~conor/pub/she/examples/ShePrelude.lhs was not found on this server. 22:35:23 Apache Server at personal.cis.strath.ac.uk Port 80 22:36:11 -!- Sasha2_ has joined. 22:37:16 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:37:18 -!- BMG has joined. 22:38:39 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 22:38:39 -!- BMG has joined. 22:38:43 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 22:40:04 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:40:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:40:50 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:40:56 elliott, my next language design goal is to make a language that takes an extremely long time to *compile* but NOT based on the time of day or have any arbitrary time requirments 22:41:30 variable: We have that, it's called C++. 22:41:33 variable: Or Haskell. 22:42:03 elliott, isn't haskell faster than C++ at least? 22:42:07 (at compiling) 22:42:15 basically - make the language itself require algorithms that are Θ(2^n) 22:42:43 variable, why not O(n!) 22:42:45 Vorpal: Well. We're working on that. 22:43:12 variable: better -- have a language with, e.g., 2^128 types exactly. have the only possible method of type checking be brute forcing 22:43:14 variable: in fact 22:43:20 variable: just store programs as SHA-512 hashes of an actual program 22:43:25 compilation takes place by brute-forcing the actual program 22:43:27 and then compiling that 22:43:44 variable: just store programs as SHA-512 hashes of an actual program <-- didn't gregor do this already? 22:44:00 Probably. 22:44:03 elliott: this sucks 22:44:06 I think there is such a language on the wiki. 22:44:07 j-invariant: What does? 22:44:16 elliott, no because that is not deterministic 22:44:36 and I don't just want O(n!) I want Θ(n!) 22:44:39 variable: yes it is deterministic 22:44:46 hm 22:44:51 there are hash collisions, but who cares :) 22:44:56 elliott, no - because there could be multiple programs that result in the same sha hash 22:45:00 variable: specify the order in which strings are brute-forced duh 22:45:04 then it's deterministic 22:45:10 if it fails to compile, just search for a collision 22:45:16 Vorpal: :D 22:45:22 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 22:45:30 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 22:45:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 22:45:36 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 22:45:56 elliott, but then its not turing complete - not all programs could be represented 22:45:57 run the program 22:45:57 until you manage to find a program that compiles 22:45:57 ask the user if it's what they want 22:46:01 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 22:46:05 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split). 22:46:08 if it's not, keep going 22:46:09 ËÌÍÎË‚·∏Ø!:L 22:46:09 Was this correct? [y/n] 22:46:10 elliott, well that works if every possible string is a valid program 22:46:10 Vorpal: No, you just completely skip the non-compiling ones. 22:46:10 elliott, well true 22:46:10 variable: That's not a requirement for turing completeness... 22:46:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:46:29 -!- augur has joined. 22:46:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:46:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:46:37 variable: You take the original language, remove a bunch of programs (those which come after a valid program in brute-force-order), and that's the "real" language. 22:47:08 The hashes are just a facade over that. 22:47:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Excess Flood). 22:47:09 elliott, anyway, I'm pretty sure that every hash can yeild a program that outputs a given output, assuming a good hash function. 22:47:10 Vorpal: You could finetune a hash function for it. 22:47:10 *yield btw. 22:47:11 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:47:11 Vorpal: But that isn't true. 22:47:12 Vorpal: Consider outputs bigger than the hash size. 22:47:22 j-invariant, Φ = lower bound O = upper bound Θ is when O == Φ IIRC 22:47:22 elliott, well, there are infinitely many strings that result in the same hash 22:47:22 Vorpal: Specifically, uncompressable outputs bigger than the hash size. 22:47:29 -!- coppro has joined. 22:47:29 -!- dbc has joined. 22:47:35 Vorpal: Well, yes. 22:47:37 Vorpal: The pigeonholes are very crowded. 22:47:49 variable: did j-invariant ask? 22:47:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Excess Flood). 22:47:49 elliott, meh - I want to invent the language myself 22:47:49 :-} 22:48:05 elliott, I thought he did when he said hm 22:48:08 ah 22:48:10 elliott, if the hash function is good, then it will "look" random. Thus we won't get that anything starting with, say, an "y" can't have this hash 22:48:11 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:48:41 if that would happen, then it wouldn't be a good hash function 22:49:00 elliott, am I right? I always forget the lowerbound symbol - the rest I know are correct 22:49:08 variable: I... think so. 22:49:12 elliott, thus, we should be able to find a program for any given hash that gives a specific output. Though it may be a /very/ long program. 22:49:14 elliott, right? 22:49:21 Vorpal: Let's just say yes and not think about it! 22:49:34 elliott, do you think I'm not right? 22:49:35 Var :: {Fin n} -> Term {t:ts} t 22:49:37 j-invariant: can't believe that actually works 22:49:40 :/ 22:49:41 Vorpal: I don't know :-) 22:49:45 It's probably right. 22:49:51 elliott ah I have another idea for a language 22:50:00 elliott, well, who would be the expert on this? 22:50:06 Vorpal: Your mo^W^Wsomeone. 22:50:16 Vorpal: It sounds like something very hard to prove. 22:50:19 For a given hash function. 22:50:27 elliott, for any /real/ hash function yes 22:50:33 you program the language by defining all legal inputs and the resulting outputs. The compiler bruteforces the shortest program that would result in those inputs/outputs :-} 22:50:33 elliott, but for a theoretical perfect one 22:50:49 variable: Reminds me of Clue. 22:51:00 Vorpal: Well, let's consider the hash function : String -> 1. 22:51:15 Vorpal: There is only one such function, f(s) = (). 22:51:24 right 22:51:32 Vorpal: Every program has the hash (), and the hash () has every program. 22:51:38 Vorpal: What is your hypothesis again? 22:52:04 j-invariant: what do you think of HOAS? 22:52:46 elliott, well, for every value in the co-domain of the hash function it will be possible to find a program in the domain that gives the specific output (assuming a language where the program isn't the same as the output, I suspect the language need to be brainfuck-IO-complete) 22:53:00 (or at least output, I don't think input matters) 22:53:00 Vorpal: Consider 22:53:16 f : String -> 2; f('x':...) = A; f(s) = B 22:53:22 elliott, what language is this 22:53:24 i.e. x followed by anything is A, everything else is B. 22:53:27 Vorpal: Pseudo. 22:53:29 ah 22:53:36 Vorpal: Now consider a language where no valid program starts with x. 22:53:43 All programs hash to B; A has no program. 22:53:53 Vorpal: Of course this is pathological ... but it demonstrates that it is not universally true. 22:53:55 elliott, hm true. 22:54:04 Vorpal: I think the problem is that while hash functions "appear" random they are not _actually_ perfectly uniform. 22:54:09 elliott: HOAS is stupid 22:54:14 j-invariant: why 22:54:18 elliott, that is not a good hash in the way I said above though. 22:54:24 elliott: it's just completely impossible to use for anything nontrivial 22:54:26 elliott: elliott, if the hash function is good, then it will "look" random. Thus we won't get that anything starting with, say, an "y" can't have this hash 22:54:26 Vorpal: I don't think a good hash in that sense exists then. 22:54:28 j-invariant: well eys :P 22:54:29 *yes 22:54:39 elliott, true, I suppose even sha512 has some bias 22:54:53 elliott, but something like sha512 or similar should come close at least 22:55:18 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 22:55:29 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 22:55:33 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split). 22:55:35 Vorpal: Close doesn't make a theorem. Infinity is against you; close times infinity equals infinitely far. :p 22:55:36 elliott: obvious being able to write syntax using lambda terms is nice, but using it internally for algorithms doesn't seem possible 22:55:36 elliott, of course. 22:55:36 j-invariant: agreed 22:55:45 Vorpal, good hash functions are not defined by looking random 22:55:45 * elliott parameterises Type 22:55:48 (on the level...) 22:55:58 j-invariant: is there any way out of an infinite hierarchy of Type-s again? 22:56:02 good hash functions are defined by small changes in the source result in large changes in the output 22:56:03 or is it all just machinery to hide it 22:56:10 variable: yes. we are aware 22:56:17 he was defining his own notion 22:57:04 elliott, but theoretically perfectly unbiased hash functions are often used in discussing algorithms using hash function. Proving something secure with that is easier than with any given real hash, so I seem to remember that often crypto things are proven secure given an unbiased hash function first. 22:57:16 variable, indeed 22:58:04 Vorpal, actually my definition isn't complete 22:58:04 variable, which will as a result look pretty random. I was not being very strict in my wording when I said "looking random" 22:58:04 because then theoretically multiplying all the bytes together should be a "good" hash function 22:58:22 Vorpal: is an unbiased function even theoretically possible? 22:58:26 * variable is away 22:58:28 I'm not sure such a functoin would be computable 22:58:29 *function 22:58:46 elliott, define theoretically. 22:58:55 -!- jix has joined. 22:59:41 Vorpal: Is there a computable unbiased hash function? 22:59:43 elliott, you can discuss things using an oracle in articles. They are presumably not possible for an UTM. 22:59:50 So not computable then. 23:00:02 elliott, I don't know if it has been proven if one could exist or not 23:00:10 elliott, I'm pretty sure none is known though. 23:00:26 data Term :: {[Type]} -> {Type n} -> * where 23:00:26 Star :: {n} -> Term {ts} {TypeI (S n)} 23:00:26 Var :: {Fin n} -> Term {t:ts} {t} 23:00:28 Fun :: {t} -> Term {t:ts} {s} -> Term {ts} {Pi t s} 23:00:30 App :: Term {ts} {Pi t s} -> Term {ts} {t} -> Term {ts} {s} 23:00:35 j-invariant: what's the hot way of describing data structures nowadays 23:00:40 W fell out of favour I know that :) 23:01:00 elliott, W? 23:01:13 Vorpal: W. 23:01:22 W 23:01:24 dot. 23:01:33 elliott, yes not very googable 23:01:52 elliott, even with the dot 23:01:54 THINGS I HATE: people who equate the web to "www". 23:01:55 Vorpal: The birth ceremony http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~txa/publ/icalp04.pdf and obituary http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/?p=324 23:02:13 Vorpal: Just skip straight to the obituary. 23:02:59 "In Epigram 2, we don’t take W-types as the primitive source of inductive structure. Instead, we supply a universe of inductive types, giving first-order data a first-order representation. We’ve just written a paper about it: The Gentle Art of Levitation." 23:03:01 Vorpal, elliott: HASHFUCK IS PATENTED 23:03:05 but i think that might be overblown for what i want 23:03:19 Gregor: YOUR MOERMYORI TJOP FDJ ODGPDNG IODFJG IODJG IODFJG KOFDJGOIFDJH0DZJSVOI HIOSI ]EWSE0R 9J90E4JYS0SJ TAWR -K5 -K[RS';T/XHC;LGKO[N]PLJK 23:03:21 elliott, ah 23:03:33 Vorpal: you read the whole post and understood it in that time? 23:03:34 Hashfuck? 23:03:35 don't lie 23:03:37 elliott, no 23:03:39 elliott, I didn't 23:03:40 WELL THEN 23:03:41 get to it 23:03:42 elliott, I never claimed I did 23:03:48 *ShaFuck rather 23:03:49 I WONDER WHY 23:03:59 j-invariant: I should probably have a type for terms and values 23:04:10 -!- coppro has joined. 23:04:10 -!- dbc has joined. 23:04:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 23:06:37 elliott: you mean both? 23:06:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:06:58 j-invariant: as in, two individual ones 23:07:05 rather than just reducing Terms down to more value-y terms 23:07:06 ok 23:08:26 ugh, this utterly sucks 23:08:57 I have Maybe all over the place because I can't parametrize haskell modules by values 23:09:08 but it's not clear whether they get turned to Just's in time 23:09:19 elliott, well too long to read, but the general issue he mentions is a recurring theme. Too flexible, too hard to work with in computers. 23:09:20 data Term :: {[forall n. Type n]} -> {Type n} -> * where 23:09:21 TermWrap :: Thing Term {ts} {s} -> Term {ts} {s} 23:09:21 App :: me {ts} {Pi t s} -> me {ts} {t} -> Term {ts} {s} 23:09:22 instance Thingy Term where wrap = TermWrap 23:09:24 SUCH FUN 23:09:45 Vorpal: well there's more important stuff near the bottom where he demonstrates theoretical problems too. 23:09:53 23:08 j-invariant: I have Maybe all over the place because I can't parametrize haskell modules by values 23:09:57 j-invariant: this is why we need an ML-style module system! 23:10:01 yeah 23:10:03 or really Ur-style 23:10:03 :) 23:10:10 I don't know much about module systems really 23:10:21 elliott, the bit about canonical representation? 23:10:21 I want a language expressive enough to define them in 23:10:28 Vorpal: the bit about tt = ff. 23:10:31 or ff = tt. around there. 23:10:32 ah 23:11:29 elliott, should I learn OCaml? 23:11:32 I think I tried once 23:11:41 elliott, ah... it is inconsistent, right? 23:11:43 Sgeo: Learn Standard ML instead. Probably. 23:11:47 Vorpal: It's more subtle than that :-P 23:12:24 j-invariant: so what's your favourite way of defining recursive types in the value language! 23:12:26 The reason I started with Racket in the first place is because I heard good things about the module system. I was lied to. 23:12:30 Sgeo: LIED 23:12:39 Sgeo: the ML module system is nothing like what you think it is. 23:12:49 j-invariant: i.e. combinators resulting in Types. 23:12:52 elliott, ...? 23:15:01 j-invariant: can you look at what i have so far? http://sprunge.us/UiXi 23:15:07 j-invariant: specifically the XXX: comments ... I'm a bit confused 23:15:18 erm that App signature at the bottom is all wrong 23:15:20 it hosuld say Term, not me 23:15:21 *should 23:15:33 also star should be gone 23:15:44 also i have a bug 23:15:45 ffff 23:15:47 elliott, any reasons for Standard ML over OCaml? 23:15:57 Sgeo: ocaml sucks. sml sucks less. 23:16:14 elliott: just use Agda already :P 23:16:24 j-invariant: but agda is 'orrible 23:16:34 this IS agda code 23:16:55 j-invariant: LET ME LIVE IN MY ILLUSION 23:17:12 btw 23:17:20 you can't really use lists for a context of types 23:17:25 Not in scope: type constructor or class `SheTyType' 23:17:26 what is this even. 23:17:27 j-invariant: why not 23:17:29 since later types might depend on the earlier ones.. 23:17:35 this makes things difficult 23:17:43 j-invariant: oh god you're right 23:17:46 j-invariant: asdfghj that is awful 23:17:53 j-invariant: i need like 23:17:54 dependent lists 23:17:59 is that something that exists 23:18:31 elliott, what are you trying to do? 23:18:39 Vorpal: things. 23:18:53 elliott, okay, if you don't want to tell... 23:19:13 Vorpal: i explained above. 23:19:36 elliott, approx where? 23:19:46 dunno 23:19:51 it's a dependent lang 23:20:07 elliott, that you are writing (or do you mean what she is?) 23:20:25 former 23:20:30 elliott, cool 23:20:39 it is not going well 23:21:04 elliott, haskell should add such an extension already 23:21:11 aha! 23:21:20 solved 23:21:30 Vorpal: um that would require a complete restructuring of GHC 23:21:38 and would be difficult to integrate with large swathes of haskell 23:22:27 elliott, hm true 23:22:36 Ambiguous type variable `thing' in the constraint: 23:22:36 `Thingy thing' 23:22:46 j-invariant: apparently "thing" is ambiguous, who knew? 23:22:54 elliott, what good general purpose dependently typed languages are there? 23:22:56 any? 23:23:04 Vorpal: Epigram 23:23:10 elliott, 1 or 2? 23:23:13 2 23:23:23 elliott, which isn't usable yet iirc 23:23:24 so... 23:23:30 Are computers? 23:23:34 none that is usable as of today? 23:23:38 elliott, well, that depends 23:25:04 elliott, was it epigram that allowed you to declare a data structure using RFC notation? Or was that another language (which one?)? 23:26:04 Vorpal: That was Cola/whateveryouwanttocallit, completely unrelated, that one's more similar to Smalltalk — don't tell Sgeo, or I'll have to add another regexp to shutup. 23:26:34 elliott, dude you just highlighted him 23:26:35 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:26:44 Vorpal: INDEED 23:27:09 elliott, so this Cola, was it any good? 23:27:21 Vorpal: It's a VPRI project. It's pretty coo'. 23:27:38 ah... 23:28:14 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 23:28:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 23:28:20 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 23:28:51 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 23:28:54 Vorpal: they are not general purpose 23:28:55 elliott, maybe I should try to learn Epigram? 23:28:55 j-invariant, which ones? epigram? 23:28:55 Vorpal: none of them 23:28:55 j-invariant, would you call haskell general purpose? 23:29:06 yes 23:29:06 ah well 23:29:06 j-invariant: Epigram is close enough :P 23:29:11 j-invariant, in what way is epigram not general purpose then? 23:29:16 Vorpal: You can't learn Epigram 2 because nothing actually runs Epigram 2. 23:29:22 elliott, hm true 23:29:39 Vorpal: There's an interactive-in-a-user-hostile-kind-of-way theorem prover that can define things in the Epigram system, but the actual language is completely unimplemented and utterly unfinished. 23:29:52 -!- Leonidas has joined. 23:29:52 -!- augur has joined. 23:29:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:29:52 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:30:42 elliott: *Polynomial> let w = (one - Quot (mon 1, Just eisenstein))*(one + Quot (mon 1, Just eisenstein)) 23:30:42 elliott, right. Is it moving forward fast or? 23:30:42 *Polynomial> printPolynomial names ((inj w * x + y)^7) 23:30:42 "y^{7} + (14 + 7\\zeta)x y^{6} + (63 + 63\\zeta)x^{2} y^{5} + (105 + 210\\zeta)x^{3} y^{4} + (315\\zeta)x^{4} y^{3} + (-189 + 189\\zeta)x^{5} y^{2} + (-189)x^{6} y + (-54 + -27\\zeta)x^{7}" 23:30:57 Vorpal: It's been in progress since 2005, so no; but Conor likes throwing out gigantic swathes of the underlying system, so yes. 23:30:58 j-invariant: N I C E 23:30:58 elliott, hah 23:30:58 j-invariant: did you write this?!?! 23:31:06 Vorpal: *system on a regular basis, 23:31:11 yes 23:31:56 printPolynomial 23:31:56 :: (SheChecks Nat n, Ring r, Eq r, Show r) => 23:31:56 Vec n String -> MonoidRing r (Vec n Integer) -> String 23:34:10 j-invariant: i approve. i approve very hard 23:34:42 j-invariant: so do quotient sets work yet >:) 23:37:41 /Users/ehird/Code/tabby/first.hs:52:26: 23:37:41 Could not deduce (Show (me (t1 :$#$#$#: ts) s)) 23:37:42 from the context (t ~ SheTyPi t1 s) 23:37:43 arising from a use of `show' 23:37:45 at /Users/ehird/Code/tabby/first.hs:52:26-31 23:37:47 Possible fix: 23:37:49 add (Show (me (t1 :$#$#$#: ts) s)) to the context of 23:37:51 the constructor `Fun' 23:37:54 import ShePrelud 23:37:55 e 23:38:40 "For any logical system, T, with an algorithm to decide what is and is not a proof in T (aka a decidable set of axioms) such that each axiom of Robinson Aritmetic (which is a very weak theory of arithmetic) is provable in T, there is some formula G, such if T proves G or if T proves ¬G, then T proves 0=1." 23:38:40 j-invariant: already have yo 23:38:46 hasn't helped 23:39:00 i think i see the problem though MAYBE 23:39:10 flexible contexts -- ALWAYS A MISTAKE ??? 23:39:38 j-invariant: indeed 23:39:44 j-invariant: any reason for quoting that? :p 23:42:03 "the incompleteness and undecidability of PA cannot be blamed on the only aspect of PA differentiating it from Q, namely the axiom schema of induction." 23:42:50 haha "For Christmas I received the book Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid (or GEB) and I have been pretty deeply troubled regarding Gödel's incompleteness theorems since." 23:44:02 "troubled"? 23:44:14 j-invariant: where's that from btw 23:46:24 Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/1LCv6.png I think dome3 is smaller than the Cube. 23:46:37 Phantom_Hoover: Note how they have tons of people working on it and even they haven't gone for bedrock. 23:48:29 elliott, dome3? 23:48:40 Vorpal: see image. on the reddit creative server. 23:48:56 elliott, I see the image. But what is it supposed to be? 23:49:01 A dome. 23:49:03 WIP. 23:49:06 just a dome? 23:49:36 yes. 23:49:52 elliott, how does one get to dome 3? 23:50:06 Phantom_Hoover: /warp dome3. 23:50:11 Phantom_Hoover: Try not to crash the server. 23:50:45 elliott, such suspicion! 23:50:55 Phantom_Hoover: I'M ON TO YOU 23:51:12 elliott: I don't understand haskell types 23:51:15 what are they for 23:51:19 j-invariant: to type things 23:51:26 which things? 23:51:38 j-invariant: typed things 23:51:59 j-invariant, it is useless when he is in this mood 23:52:05 haha 23:52:31 Vorpal: actually i was joking along with j-invariant. 23:52:38 p. sure j-invariant knows what haskell types are 23:52:39 ah 23:52:49 j-invariant: TYPES IN HASKELL ARE LIKE BURRITOS TO YOUR MONADS 23:55:28 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:55:50 X) 23:56:05 -!- elliott has joined. 23:56:47 If I became obsessed with Haskell, would shutup be configured to yell at me for mentioning Haskell? 23:57:26 Sgeo: Only if you say stupid things. 23:57:27 elliott, the dome is quite astounding. 23:57:38 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Yet it is, afaik, smaller than the Cube and also more shallow. 23:57:45 Phantom_Hoover: How the fuck is the Cube ever going to get completed? 23:57:49 j-invariant: is that polynomial thing up anywhere? 23:57:52 Well, it definitely does go down to bedrock. 23:57:54 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:57:55 I'd help if I could 23:58:01 Sgeo: Buy Minecraft. 23:58:10 elliott, it will get completed because we are HHI and we do not have restrictions on TNT. 23:58:17 HHI? 23:58:20 Phantom_Hoover: Do we have the TNT kit yet? 23:58:26 TNT kit? 23:58:33 -!- j-invariant has joined. 23:58:37 Sgeo: a kit to get tnt 23:58:40 j-invariant: is the polynomial source open? 23:58:45 elliott, you have a script to tell him to shut up? 23:58:48 elliott, why not just ignore 23:59:18 Vorpal, if I say Racket, Newspeak, Smalltalk, Factor, AW, Active Worlds, or ActiveWorlds, I get PMed a message teling me to shut up 23:59:29 Used to say it in the channel, but oerjan got ticked off 23:59:48 I am excellent at obeying the letter but not the spirit of any judgement. 23:59:49 Sgeo, just filter such /msg from elliott! 23:59:53 elliott: what do you want to see? 23:59:56 Vorpal: It doesn't come from me. 23:59:59 it's 5 files 2011-01-03: 00:00:02 Vorpal, it's from shutup 00:00:02 j-invariant: dunno :D 00:00:08 Sgeo, then easy to /ignore 00:00:18 Vorpal: Sgeo clearly realises how irritating he is sometimes because he hasn't /ignored it yet. 00:00:23 I consider it a public service. 00:00:31 elliott, you run that bot? 00:00:33 I rarely use ignore 00:00:39 Vorpal: "No, it runs on magic." 00:00:43 Huh, shutup isn't even in the channel 00:00:49 elliott, well it could be someone else running it 00:00:55 Sgeo, indeed which was why I wondered 00:00:56 Are you hitting tunes.org servers repeatedly? 00:01:07 that would be nasty 00:01:07 Now I'm ticked. 00:01:10 No. 00:01:22 elliott, so how does it work then? 00:01:24 Sgeo, shutups 00:01:30 Er. 00:01:34 wat 00:01:37 Vorpal: Its methods do not concern you. 00:01:46 elliott, why not 00:01:47 Nobody's resources are being taken up I can assure you. 00:02:00 * Sgeo glares at updog suspiciously 00:02:01 What's updog? 00:02:05 Sgeo, Vorpal, shutup's mechanics are an industrial secret knowledge of which is only permitted to senior HHI personnel. 00:02:07 elliott, I'm genuinely interested 00:02:12 I wrote updog in like five minutes Sgeo :P 00:02:13 What's updog? 00:02:15 Phantom_Hoover, stop being so silly 00:02:18 It amuses me, you see. 00:02:33 elliott, how many bots do you have on here? 00:02:44 Vorpal: Everything but botte! Anyway, this is boring. 00:02:49 LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CUBE 00:02:49 elliott, updog, or the updog part of the script? 00:02:49 What's updog? 00:02:54 elliott, lets not 00:02:59 Sgeo: I wrote the whole program in about 3 minutes. 00:03:09 Vorpal: Well *I'm* tlaking about the cube. 00:03:10 *talking 00:03:13 Phantom_Hoover: Have we got a TNT kit yet 00:03:14 ? 00:03:31 ineiros, have we got a TNT kit yet? 00:03:42 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=TNT+kit 00:05:06 Sgeo, that won't help 00:05:14 Sgeo, he is talking about a hmod kit 00:05:46 elliott, also I just checked for you and the answer is no 00:06:07 -!- Behold has joined. 00:06:16 night → 00:08:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:13:03 Vorpal, WHYYYY 00:13:49 Phantom_Hoover: Are the biome-compliant leaves any good? 00:14:04 elliott, no. 00:14:10 Phantom_Hoover: Really? 00:14:10 Well, the grass isn't. 00:14:18 Phantom_Hoover: The leaves, I said. 00:14:25 The leaves might well be, but they won't match the grass. 00:14:37 Fair enough. 00:14:55 Phantom_Hoover: 'S just that the leaves I normally use with Painterly have an annoying blue dot on them. 00:15:07 elliott, huh? 00:15:09 Not for me. 00:15:23 Phantom_Hoover: It's only for one colour 00:17:14 Phantom_Hoover: Have you noticed how ugly Painterly coal ore is? 00:17:23 No... 00:17:36 Phantom_Hoover: wut 00:17:58 Well, it's a little smeared, but it's not too bad. 00:18:09 ?Just remove the borders from my glass entirely. 00:18:10 " 00:18:15 THE PERFECT GLASS TEXTURE 00:19:10 That's what I've been using since forever. 00:27:28 "Don't you just hate fantasy? 00:27:28 Fantasy is boring. It's all about a hero killing dragons or rescuing princesses. And in the end, the hero gets a big reward from some autocratic ruler, and spends the rest of his life banging said princess." 00:27:34 --start of a texture pack thread on minecraftforums 00:29:26 "Monster Spawners? Uhh... actually, I don't see how to modernize this. I have at least put caution stripes on it so that it's safer, though. (Caution stripes make everything safer.)" 00:36:21 elliott, it appears that using LiquidThreads on one's talkpage is now The Hip New Thing at RW. 00:36:30 Phantom_Hoover: Oh dear god. 00:36:36 I'd despair if I hadn't already done so. 00:36:53 http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Armondikov 00:37:09 Admittedly, they did get rid of those hideous gray boxes. 00:37:26 Phantom_Hoover: Add a new comment without using liquidthreads and -- jesus christ that is so much UI noise. 00:37:33 I look at that and my brain sees "computer". 00:37:37 Pure, raw computer. 00:37:47 elliott, the _exact point_ I made when it was proposed. 00:38:00 Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me you used the exact words "Pure, raw computer." 00:38:15 elliott, no, just that it was UI noise 00:38:25 [[Hopefully to the chagrin of many, this page is now running Liquid Threads.]] 00:38:31 *sigh* 00:38:41 What a self-righteous little... 00:38:41 Phantom_Hoover: Halp on the server. I am lost 00:38:49 elliott, which server? 00:38:51 Phantom_Hoover: a322 00:38:52 Phantom_Hoover: HAHA 00:38:53 Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Armondikov/archive 00:38:57 Phantom_Hoover: He has summarised all his archives. 00:38:58 elliott, how can I help? 00:39:01 In the most douchebaggy way possible. 00:39:01 elliott, *she 00:39:04 Oops. 00:39:07 I really need to stop doing that. 00:39:15 DOESN'T MATTER it's still hilariously obnoxiou 00:39:15 s 00:39:47 Phantom_Hoover: I think that the regular server is ... gone? 00:39:48 Vorpal? 00:39:49 elliott, Armondikov is a noted self-superior prat. 00:40:14 WHAT IS THIS PLACE 00:40:36 When LiquidThreads was proposed she basically said "All of you who don't like it are IDIOTS who CANNOT WORK THINGS OUT because you are SO MUCH STUPIDER than me.! 00:40:41 s/!/"/ 00:41:23 what's the deal with this wiki? 00:41:33 j-invariant, beats me. It's full of idiots. 00:41:57 I failed to realise this a few years ago and this mistake has hounded me since. 00:43:00 :( 00:43:20 Phantom_Hoover: Has any drainage happened? 00:43:27 elliott, nope. 00:43:32 Phantom_Hoover: Also, I remember when I mocked RW and you went off in a huff. :p 00:43:35 BUT WE HAVE CORRUPTED YOU NOW 00:43:55 elliott, well, I've been drifting for ages now. 00:44:06 No I take credit thank you 00:44:14 The fact that they couldn't deal with a *single* troll was annoying me. 00:44:29 Look up "MarcusCicero" somewhere; the saga is hilarious. 00:44:35 Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Armondikov Look at the wonderful self-quote at the top. 00:44:46 tl;dr Privacy is irrelevant because, lol, you gave someone your details so it's everything! 00:44:50 “” — me 00:44:52 There have been at least *3* major conflicts over whether or not a self-admitted troll should be blocked. 00:44:53 in ITALICS 00:44:55 Phantom_Hoover: X-D 00:45:08 I say *conflicts* here. 00:45:27 Phantom_Hoover: What is this WIGO thing on her page and why. 00:45:29 The site was *haemorrhaging* users at points. 00:45:51 elliott, WIGO CP is the blow-by-blow report on Conservapedia; it spread from there. 00:46:22 Phantom_Hoover: I find it hard to believe that RW has not already exhausted the finite amount of lulz obtainable from Conservapedium. 00:46:31 elliott, it has. 00:46:35 Indeed. 00:46:40 That hasn't stopped anyone. 00:46:51 Well it's basically their driving force isn't it. 00:47:00 Weeeeelll... 00:47:09 Wasn't that what sparked its *creation*? 00:47:23 Yes, but it isn't quite as CP-centric as it was. 00:47:50 You seriously should look up MarcusCicero: the saga is utterly farcical. 00:48:30 TL;DR is that the old guard of ex-CP members view blocking anyone at all as being "worse than CP" and refuse to do anything about it. 00:48:41 Also, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Armondikov/pearls 00:48:47 It's a *series*. 00:49:07 Click the edit button to see them all. 00:49:39 Phantom_Hoover: ex-CP members? Don't you mean ex-trolls? :p 00:49:52 Then again, one could argue that Conservapedia has actually turned into a satire wiki and its owner is just too dumb to realise that. 00:50:00 elliott, no, I mean the people who signed up to CP to troll it when it started. 00:50:05 Indeed. 00:50:10 I mean ex-CP trolls. 00:50:40 ex-{CP trolls} that is. 00:50:47 Phantom_Hoover: Ugh @ those pearls. 00:50:47 Yes. 00:50:51 Yes. 00:50:54 The Internet has destroyed all humbleness. 00:51:19 lolol 00:51:25 "Random quotes that I like. They should be mostly mine, but attributed where possible." 00:51:30 Phantom_Hoover: You perhaps coming on MC or are you going to bed soon. 00:51:31 ? 00:51:40 I should have gone to bed 50 minutes ago. 00:52:41 j-invariant: did you ever get minecraft working btw? 00:53:35 well I think I would have to buy it to run it 00:53:43 so no 00:54:13 j-invariant: classic runs in browser fine with sun jvm 00:54:16 j-invariant, it's what, £dirtcheap? 00:54:31 You pay for the quality of the engineering. 00:54:35 Phantom_Hoover: lawl 00:54:39 all 0 quality 00:54:40 :P 00:54:43 j-invariant: but alpha is a totally different game reallyf 00:54:44 *really 00:54:50 elliott, yeah, it's like non-standard analysis. 00:54:55 j-invariant: I would recommend buying it, but I'm biased. 00:55:08 j-invariant, you can help on the CUBE 00:55:14 INDEED 00:55:37 elliott, THINGS TO PUT IN THE CUBE: midair minecart track. 00:55:57 (Putting floors in seems really really boring.) 00:55:59 # Once you've bought the game, it's yours. No DRM. <--- no source code though 00:56:19 j-invariant: you can decompile it and make mods, people are crazy enough to 00:56:23 there's even a deobfuscator :> 00:56:49 j-invariant: no drm isn't strictly true ... it automatically updates on each run ... and if you don't authenticate with the server you can't do multiplayer so updates are pretty much forced. to be clear, notch is a terrible programmer, it's just that the game is /that/ fun 00:57:59 btw 00:58:09 hmm 01:07:38 -!- Hiant has joined. 01:10:42 -!- Hiant has quit (Client Quit). 01:12:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:13:08 j-invariant: ? 01:15:28 http://i.imgur.com/4Sn6v.jpg Holy fucking cube3. 01:18:13 fizzie: On ^: "All this to play spleef?" 01:18:16 Vorpal: ^ 01:18:25 That would be the most epic game of Spleef ever. 01:18:38 Holy shit, they did all that digging in a week. 01:24:42 Was that dug out, or was the bridge and walls built up? 01:24:55 * Sgeo guesses the former, based on what elliott just said, but how can you tell? 01:25:09 Sgeo: It was dug out. 01:25:13 And because landscape don't come naturally like that. 01:25:28 You can't build walls like that? 01:25:34 See the floor. 01:25:37 It's flat stone with bedrock. 01:26:35 elliott, can I pm you? 01:27:04 Sure? 01:27:09 Anyone can PM me at any time :P 01:38:40 elliott, can I trick you into /nick'ing into something starting with Sgeo and mentioning Smalltalk? 01:40:33 Sgeo: No. 01:43:16 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Sgeo_not_a_chanc. 01:43:30 aw, it got cut off 01:43:41 -!- Sgeo_not_a_chanc has changed nick to oerjan. 01:44:07 Sgeo: didn't work 01:44:20 aw 01:44:29 aw does not trigger shutup 01:44:36 It's not that dumb. 01:44:37 ;) 01:44:44 BAH 01:44:59 -!- oerjan has changed nick to Sgeo_once_more. 01:45:18 Smalltalk Smalltalk Smalltalk 01:45:29 -!- Sgeo_once_more has changed nick to oerjan. 01:45:32 BAH 01:45:40 AW 01:50:04 aha! 01:50:19 i have finally found a popular language in which false == 1 and true == 0 01:50:36 (and you all use it) 01:51:06 cheater99: shell. yes. 01:51:19 well done there 01:51:56 did you ever manage to install linux on that laptop? 01:52:28 no 01:53:28 oh, why's that? 01:53:36 cheater99: because it hates me 01:53:44 in what way? 01:54:22 i'm sure it doesn't *really* hate you, it might just be a bit hung up. 01:55:09 cheater99, no - it hates him 01:55:44 mov eh, 0xH8 ? 02:05:09 Braid 02:05:13 Huh 02:08:52 Debian 6.0 "Squeeze" to be released with completely free Linux Kernel 02:11:35 Vorpal: what are the cube coordinates? 02:14:51 found 'em 02:16:50 Wai/ 02:17:02 What's in the screenshot? 02:18:24 Sgeo: ? 02:18:29 What screenshot 02:18:47 The one that had that huge dug-out area 02:19:30 Sgeo: some thing on the reddit server. 02:19:44 The Cube is a 128x128x128 cube under construction. I believe it is larger than dome3. 02:20:17 It is also not on the reddit server. 02:25:07 Minecarts will crash the Reddit server? 02:25:09 WTF? 02:25:24 Sgeo: what? 02:25:35 http://code.reddit.com/wiki/help/faqs/Minecraft#MinecraftSubredditRules 02:26:24 Sgeo: Where does it say it will crash the server? 02:26:41 Hold on, browser's acting up 02:26:53 "Do Not Use Banned Items Current list is: Water, Ice, TNT, Fire, Tracks and Minecarts. They will crash the server, you will be banned." 02:27:49 Sgeo: Where does it say it will crash the server? 02:27:54 Oh, there. 02:27:59 Sgeo: By crash it means because of server load. 02:28:14 Phantom_Hoover knows there are far more effective ways though. Cough. 02:29:40 Grr, minecraft's acting up 02:29:59 Sgeo: You bought Minecraft? 02:30:17 I'm playing with classic singleplayer 02:30:25 Sgeo: Oh. *crapcraft 02:32:56 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:36:05 I appear to have hit bedrock rather quickly 02:36:56 Sgeo: That's what happens when all digging happens instantly. 02:37:00 Which is stupid. 02:37:25 What does current Minecraft do? 02:37:58 Sgeo: Um, different blocks take longer to dig? 02:38:02 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 02:38:06 Ah 02:38:07 Classic is unlike Alpha in many, many ways. 02:41:38 Oh, I didnt hit bedrock 02:42:04 elliott, is freezing constantly one of them? 02:42:14 Sgeo: Um, it doesn't freeze, no. 02:42:22 Well. It does if you have rendering distance set too far. 02:42:26 Also *didn't. 02:42:37 * Sgeo hits elliott with a golem 02:44:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:44:19 -!- augur_ has joined. 02:48:15 Phantom_Hoover_log_reader: Who is Mei and why are they annoying. 02:51:11 I have reached some sort of underground cavern 02:51:27 Sgeo: Just buy the game. 02:51:52 If it's going to freeze constantly like classic is doing: No. 02:52:12 Sgeo: It isn't. 02:52:19 Sgeo: For one you run it outside of your browser. 02:55:59 Lava does not, in fact, appear to be hot 02:56:29 Sgeo: It kills you in Alpha. 02:57:47 Is TNT useless in classic? 02:58:42 Sgeo: Yes. 02:59:13 Classic is basically a glorified tech demo that is endless amounts of fun if and only if you're the variant of autistic that just makes you want to build pointless structures with no obstacle or goal forever. 03:00:33 elliott, ... I thought that was what Minecraft was about 03:01:34 Sgeo: Shit comes out at night to kill you. You build traps to catch them to get food to restore health and sulphur to make TNT to make cannons and shit to get rid of them. You explore the infinitely-generated terrain and stay alive. You mine for materials and build something awesome while staying alive. You network it all with a minecart network. You go to hell and back. etc. 03:01:48 OK, so monsters and health are disabled on our server, but there's still an awful lot of exploring and mining. 03:01:59 With classic you can build anything by holding down right click for long enough. 03:02:05 It's much more involved in Alpha. 03:02:42 Wait, worlds are infinitely huge? 03:02:44 * Sgeo happies 03:02:57 Sgeo: Well. 4x the size of the Earth. 03:03:04 Sgeo: So: Yes. 03:03:11 Sgeo: (The coords have to fit into a 64-bit integer.) 03:03:31 (And no, it is not possible to get to the edge in less than some hundreds of years.) 03:03:37 (And it would probably just wrap around. 03:03:38 ) 03:04:00 * Sgeo wants to try 03:04:25 Sgeo: It's just $20. 03:04:32 Less when it was Alpha of course. 03:04:40 Sgeo: And that buys you the final game too. 03:05:13 elliott, ... I have limited ways of getting what little money I have online 03:05:34 Sgeo: You're 21. Get a credit card. 03:05:39 Or at least a debit card. 03:05:44 Or anything? 03:05:54 * Sgeo will probably try to get a debit card 03:05:59 Hook it up to paypal 03:06:02 "Try"? 03:06:07 You're not going to ask your dad are you. 03:06:19 ... :/ 03:06:27 I've bugged my dad about it in the past 03:06:33 You're 21. Just go and get one. 03:07:42 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:08:30 Sgeo: Honestly. You're an adult. 03:08:41 -!- mtve has joined. 03:09:52 Are there any minable objects with no value in and of itself? 03:10:52 Sgeo: Yes. 03:11:08 Any of them used as currency? 03:11:35 Sgeo: No. All that it takes to mine anything is time and not much time at that (like 20s for obsidian, way less for everything else). 03:11:44 Currency is useless. There is no scarcity. It has no reason to exist. 03:12:20 It might take a while to find areas where certain things exist? 03:12:36 Sgeo: Mining is easy. 03:12:42 A mountain is bound to contain whatever it is, even if it's diamond 03:12:44 *diamond. 03:12:53 Sgeo: But why? What need is there for currency? 03:19:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:21:02 Sgeo: ... 03:32:50 I never understood why people fixate on decimal representations of things 03:36:34 * Sgeo imagines filling a huge pit with obsidian, leaving a small chute down, and having someone fall in 03:38:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OML8FtI_tGk&feature=related what's that blue tower? 03:42:14 nooga: A number of the CSC are working on a minecraft reimplementation (official working title: boxes). It will be released once the not-suckage level is reasonable, or probably when they get bored of it 03:42:23 Sgeo: Water. That's a really old version though. 03:42:25 The game does not look like that now. 03:42:44 Well, it sort of does. 03:43:47 elliott: also you forgot dbelange 03:43:54 coppro: Forgot him how. 03:43:57 coppro: oh. 03:43:59 coppro: he's your suckpuppet 03:44:06 elliott: hahahahahahahahahah 03:44:12 coppro: don't deny yo 03:44:27 elliott: you want to say that to my face? 03:44:28 err 03:44:29 oops 03:44:36 :P 03:45:49 coppro: dbelang is your sockpuppet! 03:45:53 Directed at your face 03:45:58 *e 03:47:14 Heh, RTF is based on LaTeX. 03:49:16 -!- BMG has joined. 03:49:28 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:49:34 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 03:49:34 -!- BMG has joined. 03:49:39 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 03:50:34 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:04:03 It's possible to build normally in The Nether, right? 04:22:56 "It has been confirmed that portals do not work in multiplayer yet; while they can be created, they can not teleport you." 04:22:57 :( 04:23:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:58:53 Obsidian looks.... annoying to obtain 04:59:00 Mark my words, I will run an Obsidian farm 05:37:04 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 05:38:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:39:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:56:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:08:42 And thus, we get the surprising implication that, if aliens with infinite computational powers came to earth, they could not only beat humans at chess, but could also mathematically prove they were playing chess perfectly 06:10:05 s/chess/$GAME_FOR_WHICH_PERFECT_PLAY_NETS_A_WIN/ 06:21:48 int main[] = { 0x0A692568, 0x6AE08900, 0xB8905001, (int)printf, 0x44FFD0FF, 0x7C8104E4, 0x03E804E4, 0xEB7E0000, 0xECAFFEEB }; 06:21:50 :D 06:42:09 nowwhat.net/transfers/RoseFactorizations.png 06:42:12 er 06:42:14 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/RoseFactorizations.png 07:01:29 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:10:34 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:36:07 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:50:06 pikhq: lawl, what platform is that for? 07:50:58 j-invariant: surprising? 07:51:10 how is chess' solvability surprising? 07:51:18 hell, even Go is solvable 07:54:21 In principle, every game with no random element and many games with random elements are solvable. 07:57:51 exactly 07:58:29 in some games, solvability isn't the point 07:58:39 those ones computers will not grasp for a long time 07:58:41 (Diplomacy) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:39 Chess and Go is obviously solvable if you mean mathematically (rather than practically) by "solvable". 08:17:11 Actually, is that the case? Is there conceivably a game, say with no randomness and infinite states, that is simply unsolvable? (although you could still solve a good enough subset to stump any human of course) 08:17:31 Gregor: depends what you mean by solvable 08:17:37 I was just about to say that :) 08:17:53 More precisely, I was going to say "I suppose that depends on what you mean by solvable." 08:18:02 I believe if it's infinite, you have the halting problem 08:18:53 I'll say that it's solvable if there exists a program which is guaranteed to win or stalemate against any opponent, where infinitely-recurring-states and any in-game-defined stalemate are stalemates. 08:20:00 indeed, then you have the halting problem 08:20:30 Not necessarily, I can easily define games with infinite states but trivial programs to win. 08:20:35 sure 08:20:46 the halting problem doesn't mean all programs are difficult to reason about 08:20:47 just some 08:20:55 Although then I guess it starts to depend on your definition of "game", since corner cases are lame 8-D 08:21:26 Gregor: Do you mean the game "My Dad Has More Money Than You", in which there is infinite possibilities but it is easy to always the second player wins? 08:21:32 "Given an infinite tape, both players choose a cell and write a character there at the same time. The first player to write the character 'a' wins. If both characters write the character 'a' in the same turn, it's a stalemate." <-- solvable "infinite" game 08:21:46 Gregor: sure 08:22:01 zzo38: Idonno that game :P 08:22:07 Gregor: int main() { while (false) { } } // solvable "infinite" program 08:22:14 coppro: Yup 08:22:32 Of course, in my previous "game" the enormous majority of cases are reducible into one, and your program has a single strictly-recurring state. 08:24:53 no 08:25:08 Errr 08:25:09 it terminates immediately 08:25:16 Sorry, read it as while true for some reason. 08:25:53 any finite game is clearly solvable by a TM 08:26:07 but does that extend to infinity? 08:26:15 * coppro doesn't know enough computational theory to say 08:26:15 OK, let us, using our extraordinary #esoteric minds, invent a game which is playable with paper and pencil, has infinite state-space, and we suspect to be generally unsolvable (although it may be solvable for "reasonable" board sizes) 08:26:59 Solvability of things with infinite states becomes very fuzzy, you have to prove you can collapse infinite states into finite states. 08:27:01 Gregor: each person has a massive piece of a penrose tiling to start with 08:27:23 Gregor: each move is the place one piece of tile, plus any others whose placement is forced by that one 08:27:35 How massive is "massive" 08:27:42 Gregor: sufficiently big 08:27:46 maybe 25 pieces 08:27:55 a player wins when their piece is replicated on the gameboard 08:28:32 ... you mean loses, right? 08:28:36 no, wins 08:28:49 the players' pieces are not part of the board 08:29:09 Ohhhhhhhhhhh 08:29:23 actually I don't know if this one is potentially infinite 08:29:30 Yeah, I don't think it is. 08:29:37 but I think it is 08:29:41 Any state that's bigger than the gameboards is reducible I think. 08:29:55 (To the union of several smaller states) 08:30:16 uh, sure, but you still need to get those states to appear on the board 08:30:16 Make a game that is known to be solvable if and only if Goldbach's conjecture is true. 08:30:22 and remember, penrose tiling is aperiodic 08:30:36 And then prove it. 08:30:58 zzo38: I'm tempted 08:31:10 coppro: Ohhhh, I see the trick ... that may in fact work, but it's hard to inject strategy into, since I'm betting it'd be nigh-on impossible to guess what will help you :) 08:31:29 Gregor: indeed; you didn't say that guessability was a criterion :) 08:31:59 OK, let us, using our extraordinary #esoteric minds, invent a game which is playable with paper and pencil, has infinite state-space, is fun, playable and strategic for humans, and we suspect to be generally unsolvable (although it may be solvable for "reasonable" board sizes) 08:32:09 hah 08:32:12 :P 08:32:23 I'm thinking something with graphs. 08:32:32 how about N-in-a-row 08:33:18 Something to do with if you get N in a row, then the opponent has f(N) turns to get N+1 in a row or you win. Then it repeats when they have N+1 08:34:25 sure 08:35:47 So lesse. The gameboard is a giant (infinite) grid, you'd probably need a counter to keep track of turns too, one player starts by placing a single X, and then the opponent has to get two Os in a row within f(1) turns (f to be defined) ... with a few caveats I think we may be on to something doable. 08:36:50 Oh, I should add one more requirement to my giant list above: The game has to be non-random. 08:37:26 I will tell you the "My Dad Has More Money Than You" game: First player says some integer. And then second player says an integer. Whoever says high number wins. Obviously second player can win. But there is an infinite number of choices. 08:37:35 Gregor: Does it also have to be complete information? Or not? 08:37:37 Gregor: ah, yeah, I was assuming perfect information 08:38:05 Hmmmm 08:38:15 I could go either way, opinions? 08:38:36 Gregor: You can try it both ways to see what happens. 08:38:42 The concern is really solvability, but it feels like a more impressive feat if you have a game that can't be solved and has no information hiding :) 08:39:00 I wouldn't look for such a game 08:39:12 rather, I'd prove its existence by showing equivalence to the halting problem 08:39:13 far simpler 08:39:35 The point is to actually PLAY this game at some point too X-P 08:40:40 in fact, I have a sketch of the proof now 08:40:50 based upon a DFS of the game's state graph 08:40:55 err 08:40:57 BFS 08:42:52 You have no flair for invention :P 08:45:26 I like category theory 08:46:06 Now make rock-paper-scissors game with two ducks. 08:46:31 ducks? *two* ducks!? 08:46:38 olsner: JOIN US 08:46:44 Actually, join me :P 08:46:56 olsner: Yes. 08:46:58 pooppy has gone off into proovy-land 08:47:30 Gregor: apparently you're inventing some kind of game of strategy? strategy is boring... 08:48:17 olsner: Then play http://codu.org/wiki/Hydra , it has more randomness :P 08:48:45 Now make a game and prove that any strategy you come up with is provable to be the worst possible strategy that exists (worse than any others), no matter what strategy you select to make this proof. 08:49:27 *worse or equally bad as 08:49:55 Gregor: No. Strictly worse only. No equally bad as. 08:50:25 "She's like the Internet with breasts! Oh wait, Internet has breasts." <-- House being funny 08:50:26 zzo38: But nearly any strategy will have an almost-identical strategy with no game-relevant difference that performs equally poorly. 08:51:01 zzo38: Like with my game, always write "b" and always write "c" are equally-bad strategies, and with your game (as the second player), saying the other's number minus one and minus two are equally bad strategies. 08:52:41 Gregor: Then add that as the restriction and then consrtuct a proof for such a game with a proof of non-proof of non-proof of proof with the axiom of choice assuming it is a game with hidden information but no randomness. 08:53:39 First assume the axiom of choice is correct and then assume it is incorrect and then make a game from the results of the proof. 08:55:32 Also, I think if you make it the game has points at the end instead of just win/lose, then, for example, you have whatever number you said is the difference of you (winner's) and the other is your points. Now, there is no best strategy and no worst strategy. 08:56:15 Even though it is still easily the second player wins. 09:03:07 awesomeness 09:03:17 I can now switch desktops and invert colors in x simultaneously 09:03:20 <3 xmonad 09:03:57 ... how ... useful? 09:04:14 it's very useful 09:04:17 for not burning my eyes 09:06:08 Ahhhh ... but why does that need to be associated with switching desktops oh of course because everything but your web browser is configured properly to be white-on-black. 09:08:13 not quite everything 09:08:31 but have you tried making a browser to white-on-black? 09:08:32 impossible 09:08:49 everyone and their brother explicitly specifies that the background color be white 09:09:50 I have. 09:09:53 And yes, it's impossible. 09:10:01 Hence why I listed that one in particular :) 09:10:31 I actually submitted a bug to Mozilla about problems with their (now, I believe, unsupported) settings to override page colors. 09:10:45 A bug which sat for two years and then was closed as unresolved :P 09:11:14 actually, there is a way 09:11:17 userChrome.css 09:11:24 with !important styling tags 09:11:51 !important styling tags in userChrome.css will override anything and everything in a web site's css 09:11:57 Nope, the bug wasn't with getting the colors in, it was with opacity issues resulting from that. 09:13:00 Basically, since divs are by default transparent, if you a) force it to color them black, then you get weird effects when they're supposed to be transparent, or b) force it not to color them, you get unreadable stuff when they're supposed to be opaque. 09:13:16 It didn't have any way to say "Make things which are opaque black" 09:14:16 ah 09:14:22 I don't think CSS allows for such a thing 09:14:40 so it's not mozilla's fault 09:14:52 it's CSS' for not making alpha a separate propertyu 09:14:58 Can you make it turn off alpha transparency and instead select opaque/transparent/background-color based on some simple algorithm to decide? 09:15:04 zzo38: no 09:15:09 not without JS that is 09:15:17 a solid GreaseMonkey script could easily do it 09:26:35 We've lost site of the awesome game :P 09:27:30 *sight 09:40:19 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:44:56 Why is there *no* command in TeX to check if a paragraph contains overfull lines? 09:46:16 zzo38: how did you get interested in TeX? 09:48:03 j-invariant: I use TeX for many things it is a better typesetting system than most. 09:48:20 thdat's why I use it too 09:49:35 I also like the DVI format. 09:49:44 why? 09:49:53 And I can write a program in Enhanced CWEB I can write TeX codes and C codes in the same file. 09:50:21 I think DVI format is simple and superior than PDF or others. 09:50:44 I haven't studied either but that sounds very likely 09:51:37 PDF format is full of stupid stuff. 09:52:22 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:52:48 I have figured out how to make a lot of things with TeX. But some things I just didn 09:52:55 't figure out. 09:55:44 I suppose it is possible to do some things by running the job twice and make it parse the log file from the first run. 10:00:42 \begingroup\setbox0=\vbox{\noindent\vrule\par}\endgroup 10:00:50 Is that guaranteed to reset the error count? 10:20:17 -!- dbc has joined. 10:21:28 I think I might figure out one way in which we might figure out overfull boxes, because it adds a rule to end of each overfull line (hhox) in a paragraph. 10:22:28 Just before the rule (or at the end if there is no rule) is a \rightskip glue. 10:24:06 Let me try. 10:36:58 It worked: http://sprunge.us/BXSK 11:09:12 -!- WAR has joined. 11:11:30 -!- WAR has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 11:11:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 11:11:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:47:19 "All indestructible permanents are removed from the game." 11:50:22 hehe 12:38:08 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 12:38:11 -!- fxkr has quit (*.net *.split). 12:38:14 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split). 12:38:15 -!- sshc has quit (*.net *.split). 12:38:24 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 12:45:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:48:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:53:41 -!- Vorpal has joined. 12:53:41 -!- fxkr has joined. 12:53:41 -!- tswett has joined. 12:53:41 -!- sshc has joined. 12:53:41 -!- Gregor has joined. 12:55:15 -!- sshc has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 12:56:04 -!- sshc has joined. 12:56:52 how is chess' solvability surprising? 12:58:11 that's not the thing that has been proved 12:58:31 the exact statement is subtle 13:00:01 _if_ the aliens have infinite computational power (possibly more is needed than just to solve chess), _then_ they can convince a human being that they can solve chess perfectly, _in much less time than it would take for a human to understand how to do it_ 13:02:58 or to rephrase, even if solving chess takes exponential time, they can convince a human of their ability to do it, in polynomial time 13:03:52 (it has not actually been proved that solving chess _does_ take exponential time, P ?= PSPACE is still a major unsolved problem) 13:37:03 hm this iwc is confusing, there are two parallel visits to the same room of hitler's headquarters, both iirc in 1940, but they are _not_ bumping into each other? 13:37:22 of course today's one's _are_ time travellers, but still... 13:37:26 *ones 13:41:48 I can't figure out this muAgda language 13:42:02 I think it uses the same variable name for different variables in its output 13:43:00 j-invariant, Agda? Bleurgh. 13:43:04 not agda 13:43:40 (Actually, I think Agda is a fairly nice experiment in dependent types which is under the regrettable delusion that it is a proof assistant.) 13:43:56 Phantom_Hoover: do you know parametricity? 13:44:04 j-invariant, I do not! 13:44:12 well the idea is quite simple 13:44:15 It sounds wonderful! 13:44:20 yeah it is! 13:46:04 What is it!? 13:46:10 have you ever noticed there are some things which are quite obvious just from the type of a function (but they can't be proved without looking at the definition) e.g. f :: [a] -> [a] can't "inspect" the elements 'a' because there are no typeclass constaints.. so map g . f = f . map g? 13:46:42 or another example swap :: (a,b) -> (b,a) -- you know exactly what it does but you can't prove it unless you use the definition 13:49:45 does not ring a bell? 13:50:33 j-invariant, yep. 13:51:17 well then the idea of parametricity is to get these theorems (the ones that come just by inspecting the type) 13:51:59 The language here implements it http://hackage.haskell.org/package/uAgda-1.0.0.1 13:52:19 -!- elliott has joined. 13:52:26 it's quite hard to actually use though 13:52:27 hi elliott 13:52:33 hi 13:53:19 Phantom_Hoover: anyway I think one could make very good use of this parametricity 13:54:01 So... why is it called uAgda? 13:54:44 20:04:03 It's possible to build normally in The Nether, right? 13:54:51 Sgeo: Uh, not really. The terrain is not very conducive. 13:54:55 20:58:53 Obsidian looks.... annoying to obtain 13:54:55 20:59:00 Mark my words, I will run an Obsidian farm 13:55:01 It's not; you just need lava and water; and impossible. 13:55:36 Also, with hmod's /sethome, /home and /spawn and loads of buckets you can construct very quickly. 13:56:41 * Phantom_Hoover wishes Epigram 2 was further along in its development. 13:56:50 elliott, to mine obsidian, you need a diamond pick-axe, which requires diamond, which requires an iron pick-axe, etc. 13:57:02 Sgeo: Mining obsidian is a folly. 13:57:06 Sgeo: You create it in-place. 13:58:01 My plot to have Edwin Brady kidnapped in order that I might then kidnap Conor McBride is regrettably dead in the water. 13:58:20 Phantom_Hoover: Why? 13:58:27 I'll go tell him. 13:58:59 elliott, Operative says that I might as well write Epigram myself and says that effort of kidnapping Brady is greater than required to do so. 13:59:22 Phantom_Hoover: you and elliott should learn mu Agda 13:59:27 Operative knows nothing of the nature of Epigram and as such cannot be swayed from this position. 13:59:39 Note to self: Don't build a fireplace in a wooden house 13:59:43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjSWPxJxNs 13:59:44 I could use some help figuring it out :/ 13:59:50 Phantom_Hoover: "Kidnap me a fucking Ph.D., then." 13:59:51 j-invariant: oh? 13:59:56 Sgeo, we have a wooden house with a fireplace, FWIW. 14:00:01 On our server. 14:00:05 there is literally zero documentation 14:00:12 That guy is just an idiot. 14:00:28 hm? 14:00:33 elliott: did you read the scrollback, I just explained the key feature of muAgda 14:00:40 j-invariant: totalling doing so now 14:00:51 elliott: I think I've figured out how to do quotients with it... 14:01:04 j-invariant: neat 14:01:18 What are these quotient things? 14:01:43 Phantom_Hoover: just like when you create modular arithmetic out of the integers using the equivalence relation 14:01:56 (do you knhow that construction?) 14:02:00 01:04:14 it's very useful 14:02:00 01:04:17 for not burning my eyes 14:02:00 lol @ people who think that white on black hurts eyes less 14:02:05 lern2contrastandbrightness 14:02:45 01:46:16 zzo38: how did you get interested in TeX? 14:02:45 01:48:03 j-invariant: I use TeX for many things it is a better typesetting system than most. 14:02:45 01:48:20 thdat's why I use it too 14:02:49 j-invariant: you probably use LaTeX 14:02:56 well yeah :/ 14:02:57 zzo38 thinks LaTeX is a horrible bloatware scourge ;) 14:02:58 *:) 14:03:02 oh wow 14:03:04 but then...he's zzo 14:03:09 that's pretty cool 14:03:13 everything is a horrible bloatware scourge 14:03:17 j-invariant: hehe 14:03:22 I don't even know which bits are TeX and which are LaTeX 14:03:32 j-invariant: LaTeX is ... most of it 14:03:37 j-invariant: raw TeX has nothing "semantic" 14:03:41 it's all just raw formatting commands 14:03:42 elliott, how is the Nether not conducive to building? 14:03:45 and most of them don't take arguments 14:03:49 so it's pretty imperative 14:03:51 it's not very nice 14:03:55 very manual 14:04:00 Sgeo: because the terrain sucks 14:04:23 So just flatten it or something first 14:04:27 Sgeo, very rough terrain and everything's a cavern. 14:04:39 * Sgeo just wants to build a cannon for high-speed transport in the Nether >.> 14:04:43 Also, there are exactly 3 building materials available. 14:04:47 btw uAgda *does* compile 14:04:49 05:43:40 (Actually, I think Agda is a fairly nice experiment in dependent types which is under the regrettable delusion that it is a proof assistant.) 14:04:52 you stole that opinion from me 14:04:53 give it back 14:04:54 surprised me! you just have to cabal install some deps 14:05:03 j-invariant: lemme logread first 14:05:06 (hint hint)_ 14:05:06 elliott, I came to it of my own accord! 14:05:14 i wouldn't disagree either 14:05:17 Sgeo: um cannons can't make you travel fast ... and flattening the nether would involve MAJOR mining 14:05:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMJo_UNrtyo&NR=1 14:05:32 Although the guy does die at the end 14:05:33 elliott, wait. 14:05:45 Find a lava lake, solidify it. 14:05:50 Sgeo: Well ... yeah. 14:05:57 Sgeo: You will die. 14:06:02 A large area of flat terrain upon which you can build. 14:06:07 Sgeo: Notice how he goes straight up. 14:06:11 Thought that you can't die on your server 14:06:11 Phantom_Hoover: Nice. 14:06:19 Sgeo: If you have no health, then just swim across the lava... 14:07:26 j-invariant: i will install uagda 14:07:40 You need to mine out Obsidian to make portals... 14:07:44 j-invariant: in return i expect you to figure out how to boot ubuntu on this >:D 14:07:46 Sgeo: no. 14:07:50 Sgeo: you just need buckets of lava and water. 14:07:57 and a brain. 14:07:59 Sgeo, I don't think you get it. 14:08:08 Still lava + water → obsidian. 14:08:10 "Why Lisp is a Big Hack (And Haskell is Doomed to Succeed)" This post is going to be shit. 14:08:36 j-invariant: stupid quote of the day: "(When I say Haskell, I'm not only speaking about Haskell per se, but also about all the FP languages in its halo, like Ωmega, Agda, Epigram, ...)" 14:08:44 yeah that makes zero sense 14:08:58 j-invariant: it's written by a lisper nothing they say makes any sense 14:09:20 If you want to speak about FP languages, say "Functional languages" 14:10:29 Linking dist/build/cmdargs/cmdargs ... 14:10:30 ld: warning: in /opt/lib/libiconv.dylib, file was built for unsupported file format which is not the architecture being linked (i386) 14:10:37 j-invariant: get ubuntu working and i'll be able to install uAgda 14:11:01 elliott: The only way I ever got ubuntu to boot was off a CD - and it had to be a specific older version 14:11:27 on a mac? 14:11:32 yes 14:11:37 well i have booted ubuntu off a usb stick but it was on an older machine 14:11:47 so bleh... i'll get it working later 14:11:53 guess what i get to do now THAT'S RIGHT rebuild things! 14:12:08 "I want to be able to test a incomplete program, even if it hasn't been type checked fully" *_* 14:12:16 X_X 14:12:23 knee jerk sort of thing to say 14:14:24 j-invariant: i honestly think all the lispers are desperately clinging at ways to say they're more expressive and interaction and rapid development than all these blasted new bondage and discipline languages ... kinda sad really :p 14:14:57 Phantom_Hoover: Notch codes so badly that a 10FPS speed boost is trivial: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=123503 14:15:55 That is completely insane. 14:17:19 frankly, stuff like Haskell isn't strong enough for me 14:17:50 Strong as in...? 14:17:51 I don't know how /anyone/ sucessfully programs in that language 14:18:55 Hmm? 14:19:19 even with extensions like SHE I can't do what I want 14:20:30 What do you want? 14:20:41 I don't know the answer to that :( 14:21:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:21:35 I'm assuming you aren't writing run-of-the-mill programs. 14:22:31 yeah I just write normal stuff 14:24:14 plus proofs are "eternal" 14:24:14 So how do you fail to do it? 14:24:34 with a sufficiently good dependently typed langauge we shouldn't have to re-implement the same nonsense a million times 14:25:49 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:27:35 j-invariant, example? 14:27:45 of what? 14:30:25 The same nonsense. 14:34:15 Incidentally, I would still like recommendations on new computery things. 14:34:33 NB: I still have no idea whether or not I would like a laptop or desktop. 14:39:23 Phantom_Hoover: Do you actually ever use it elsewhere. 14:40:05 elliott, well, I move rooms occasionally, and I am forced to go to Ireland most holidays... 14:40:19 Phantom_Hoover: Is your current laptop insufficient for those purposes? 14:40:26 elliott, no. 14:40:32 Phantom_Hoover: Buy a desktop then, 14:40:35 *then. 14:40:39 Although the battery is completely screwed. 14:41:06 There's electricity in Ireland. I think. 14:41:51 elliott, are you sure? 14:42:00 Well. Not really. 14:42:54 elliott, IIRC there wasn't broadband in the specific village I stay in until fairly recently. 14:42:55 Phantom_Hoover, this crash bug you mentioned, have you reported it? 14:43:08 Vorpal: I doubt fizzie would like that. 14:43:11 And the house within the village remains landlineless. 14:43:13 elliott, eh? 14:43:18 Vorpal: It's teleportation. 14:43:21 ah 14:43:23 right 14:43:23 Vorpal, the GPU or MC one? 14:43:29 The MC one. 14:43:29 Phantom_Hoover, MC. 14:43:32 Yes, I'm not going to tell notch. 14:43:37 good then 14:43:42 Besides, his fix would probably be... very ... interesting. 14:43:48 For one thing, he is clearly unable to fix it competently. 14:43:51 Also it's useful just so long as nobody else finds out ever. For our personal use. 14:44:10 For another, can you imagine what would happen if a serious griefer got their hands on it? 14:44:21 hm 14:44:23 Yes. The reddit creative server would go down every five minutes. 14:44:28 And then what would we do Phantom_Hoover! 14:44:28 Ha ha. 14:44:31 But I am sure that will never happen. 14:44:42 Thing That Would Be Much Nicer If Minecraft Did Antialiasing: the Tronic pack. 14:45:09 can you file a CVE against any sort of software (no I'm not about to do that, just the thought of a CVE against minecraft sounds hilarious) 14:45:13 It's nice, so long as you only look at things from the right angle. 14:45:19 Vorpal: I believe so. 14:45:22 heh 14:45:32 Vorpal: But in this case "full disclosure" means "full anarchy". 14:45:43 Ordinarily I woul dapprove, but Notch is just so helpless. 14:45:44 CVE? 14:46:00 Oh. 14:46:01 Csomething Vsomething Esomething. 14:46:05 HTH 14:46:11 elliott, usually they tell the vendor a few days before the full disclosure iirc 14:46:16 Vorpal: No. 14:46:22 Vorpal: That's one of the infinity "Responsible Disclosure" policies. 14:46:24 Vorpal, that would be deeply hilarious. 14:46:30 Vorpal: Full disclosure, the most common practice, is instant full disclosure. 14:46:36 elliott, hm okay 14:46:44 Vorpal: This is for the best because if history proves anything, it's that vendors really don't give a shit. 14:46:48 The entire Mojang workforce would be dedicated to fixing it before we made it public. 14:46:50 elliott, right 14:47:08 And would fail, naturally. 14:47:21 Phantom_Hoover: They'd probably throw legal threats at us or something. 14:47:26 Heh. 14:47:27 It's ILLEGAL to reveal that! You're a bad person! 14:47:30 You're letting the terrorists win! 14:47:35 Phantom_Hoover: Have you tried the Tronic texture pack, btw? 14:47:42 elliott, I've seen it. 14:47:46 Phantom_Hoover: It's my single-colour texture pack, except actually nice. 14:47:49 elliott, link? 14:47:53 * Phantom_Hoover prefers Painterly. 14:47:55 Vorpal: http://evilmousestudios.com/tronic/ 14:48:06 Vorpal: See screenshots at the bottom. 14:48:23 quite nice, but I think I'll stick to painterly 14:48:48 elliott, hm is tronic "high res"? Or is it just the smooth colours that make it look that way? 14:48:56 Vorpal: It's 32x32. 14:49:01 ah 14:49:05 Vorpal: I think those screenshots have been cubically downscaled though. 14:49:10 It's more jaggedy in practice. 14:49:24 Painterly is kinda nice but I get the feeling (and drama on /r/Minecraft) agrees that the creator doesn't really know what they're doing. 14:49:28 mc: the only context where 32x32 would be called HD during 2011. 14:49:33 The defaults are... really inconsistent, for one. 14:49:34 And weird. 14:49:40 Plus, a lot of them don't tile really well. 14:49:55 Also, I think they're working on the individual tiles without thinking about how they fit into the world. 14:49:55 Painterly is kinda nice but I get the feeling (and drama on /r/Minecraft) agrees that the creator doesn't really know what they're doing. <-- fitting. Nor does notch. 14:49:59 or what do you mean? 14:50:09 Sure, X is really pretty, but when you have a gigantic world of X, Y and Z, it's just too noisy with detail. 14:50:13 X being a single block. 14:50:18 elliott, true 14:50:27 Somewhere in-between would be nicest. 14:50:27 elliott, you have to customise painterly to get a good result 14:50:33 elliott, but I can't stand the default cobble 14:50:36 Yeah, I have. 14:50:47 Vorpal: I have cobble that looks like little circular markings (not perfect circles) on stone. 14:50:49 Light stone. 14:50:55 elliott, probably the same 14:51:12 Vorpal: Do you have painterly's water enabled? 14:51:26 Vorpal: It's really nice but you need mcpatcher to do it. Or manually editing the jar. 14:51:28 elliott, I picked the actual grid-shaped cobble. 14:51:35 Phantom_Hoover: Grouse. 14:51:35 elliott, last I looked it said it required some "non-standard" mod and it seemed like more work. 14:51:43 so no 14:51:48 elliott, it looked most like actual cobblestones! 14:51:48 Vorpal: "non-standard"? It's easy, you just run the jar, pick the pack, and check a few boxes. 14:51:51 It's pretty common. 14:52:24 elliott, that http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=123503 ... tried it? 14:52:41 Vorpal: Nope. It's incompatible with Better Light. 14:52:45 Vorpal: Also it makes no difference on multiplayer. 14:52:45 elliott, because single player is pretty much unplayable in beta for me. 14:52:48 on my desktop 14:52:50 Vorpal: Try it then. 14:52:54 Results seem good from all responders. 14:53:02 Vorpal: And the technical details look sound (and prove how stupid Notch is). 14:53:33 elliott, I wonder what META-INF is and why it should be deleted. Hm. 14:53:38 Vorpal: Some cache I think. 14:53:46 Dunno. 14:53:46 a cache, in a jar? 14:53:48 wtf 14:53:57 Vorpal: I think it stores, like, a directory? Don't ask me. 14:54:02 hm 14:54:12 fizzie: Can I make the map in mcmap turnable-off by an option? Amusing, I know, but I play fullscreen and so can't really use the map, but //goto is super-useful. 14:54:13 META-INF contains the .jar metadata. 14:54:18 The manifest thing thing. 14:54:24 Failing that I'll just fork or something. Or rewrite it in ML. :p 14:54:24 Sure. 14:54:28 elliott, can't it be minimised? 14:54:33 ". In vanilla Minecraft, the entire list is sorted by distance from the player every frame" 14:54:33 Vorpal: Still takes up CPU. 14:54:36 * Sgeo mindboggles 14:54:37 Though the name "mcmap" makes it a bit silley. 14:54:41 elliott, not very much you claimed! 14:54:41 If I disable the map don't need to keep track of chunks do I? 14:54:54 Vorpal: Dude, I use Better Light, Far, and Fancy. 14:55:04 Vorpal: *Any* CPU is lots of CPU for me. 14:55:04 Why doesn't the patch help in multiplayer? 14:55:21 elliott, right. 14:55:22 Sgeo: Because chunks update when the server decide. 14:55:24 *decides. 14:55:33 Maybe I'll make my own texture pack that's like Painterly but less ornate. 14:56:17 fizzie: Does //goto need to know what chunks are around? Only for "omg no sky", right? 14:56:25 Only for that check, right. 14:56:48 It currently barfs if you try to invoke it from a chunk it hasn't seen. 14:57:01 fizzie: Welp, us no-mapsters don't need no safety. 14:57:04 Maybe I'll add a prompt. 14:57:06 Is the sky visible? [y/n] 14:57:10 :P 14:57:19 A more healthier sort of //goto would need the map for route-planning. 14:57:31 (The sort of an auto-walk style //goto.) 14:57:33 Do not goto while pregnant. 14:57:53 fizzie: I'll also commit my make-it-work-on-OS-X fixes and *oh* joy I just realised I have to rebuild glib. 14:58:55 fizzie: Committ'd. 14:59:03 & push't no less. 14:59:54 Incy-dentally, keeping track of these compiles is quite a pain: http://sprunge.us/eXUZ 15:00:08 I think I might just abandon this manual stow system. In fact, yes, I will. Goodbye, /opt. 15:00:17 Someone give me Ubuntu. Or a stiff drink. 15:00:37 elliott, so stow wasn't good then? 15:00:50 Vorpal: Stow itself performed perfectly; compiling everything by hand was not fun. 15:00:59 Vorpal: Especially as glib is 32-bit only or something for god knows what reason or I don't know and ugh. 15:01:19 I don't care what Homebrew recommends I'm installing it into /opt, like a decent person. 15:01:20 elliott, blame OS X for crazy 64-bit situation 15:01:35 Vorpal: "Crazy"? It's about as sane as a pure 64-bit migration can be (i.e. not very). 15:01:49 elliott, you're a compiler now? 15:01:55 elliott, well why did they go 32-bit on intel at all? 15:02:03 Vorpal: Because Core 2 wasn't out yet ... 15:02:07 elliott, ah.... 15:02:25 Vorpal: In fact the first test Mac Pros given to developers were Pentium 4-based. 15:02:30 Vorpal: The first released Intel Macs were based on Core. 15:03:14 Vorpal: Quick lesson: Core is based on the Pentium M architecture. Core 2 is based on the Core architecture. No not Core 2, Core. 15:03:20 elliott, yet linux managed to go 64-bit without all this mess. Sure there was still some problems but mostly from programmers messing up int, long and void* during a lot of years. 15:03:29 Core is not based on Core, Core 2 is based on Core, and Core 2 has no relation to Core, but it is built in Core. 15:03:46 elliott, err what 15:03:51 Vorpal: Confused yet? 15:03:58 elliott, are there two different things called "Core"? 15:04:12 Vorpal: Core[CPU] is not based on Core[arch], Core 2[CPU] is based on Core[arch], and Core 2[CPU] has no relation to Core[CPU], but it is built on Core[arch]. 15:04:18 right 15:04:20 Vorpal: Linux transitioned to 64-bit by way of "take something like 7 years to do it". 15:04:28 Not really a viable business strategy. 15:04:29 fizzie, incidentally, shouldn't //goto fail if you try to enter the Cube? 15:04:36 Phantom_Hoover: It does. Usually. 15:04:47 fizzie: Why does world have a capital .C on the end. 15:04:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:05:33 elliott, actually... I ran 64-bit back when you still ran into the "stored pointer into an int" kind of issue daily. And really that was the only major portability issue. I could just patch it and store it in a portage overlay and file a bug (yes I ran gentoo back then) 15:06:22 Vorpal: Guess what isn't an option for OS X users? 15:06:30 Vorpal: Patching it and storing it in a portage overlay. 15:06:33 right 15:06:43 :P 15:07:23 There shouldn't be any capital .Cs. 15:07:34 fizzie: Well there iz. 15:07:35 elliott, but anyway, if you can recompile the software then migration is pretty swift. The vast majority of the software that isn't JITing or similar will probably work. (possibly after changing an int to a long somewhere or such) 15:07:41 fizzie: Possibly OS X's fault. 15:07:50 There are none in the github web-view. 15:08:01 fizzie: Well, HFS is case-insensitive, so lulz happen 15:08:03 *happen. 15:08:04 Foodcraft. → 15:08:15 * Phantom_Hoover looks at (0,0) again. 15:08:16 Weird. 15:08:20 elliott, not capital C for me 15:08:26 elliott, it's on your side yeah 15:08:50 /usr/local/Cellar/git/1.7.3.4: 965 files, 18M, built in 51 seconds 15:08:52 Gotta wonder why it tells me that. 15:08:55 elliott, bug report: 15:08:57 cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-fnested-functions" 15:08:59 It's an island of 3 pre-Halloween chunks surrounded on all sides by post-Halloween terrain for at least 5 chunks on all sides. 15:09:00 "Oh man, 51 seconds! I'd better optimise my C compiler!" 15:09:02 elliott, what is this about? 15:09:08 Vorpal: God DAMMIT, Apple. 15:09:28 Vorpal: Apparently when they decided to turn off nested functions by default (why?) they added an option to turn it back on that nobody else has! 15:09:36 GUESS THE MAKEFILE'S GOTTA USE UNAME 15:09:52 elliott, well it doesn't exist on any gcc version I have (4.3, 4.4 and 4.5) 15:10:54 Vorpal: Appropriately profanity-laden commit pushing now. 15:10:59 Fucking fuckity fuck. 15:11:25 elliott, why not just a "checking if compiler has -fnested-functions" thing? ;) 15:11:53 Vorpal: Hardy harf harf. 15:12:04 Vorpal: It's a bug in Apple's compiler, it doesn't need to be worked-around cleanly :P 15:12:14 :P 15:12:18 Vorpal: That's basically what's wrong with autoconf: it checks for features; it should check for bugs. 15:12:44 Vorpal: And checking for bugs (which it calls features) never works because everyone's bugs are subtly different so it ends up basically checking what compiler you have in a really roundabout, slow way. 15:12:59 Because, dammit, people play Minecraft on SunOS and they want to use mcmap. 15:13:50 * elliott decides he's getting too sane, takes a look at useful.make. 15:14:06 $(objdir)/$(1): $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.o) Makefile | $(objdir) ; \ 15:14:06 $(call do-template,LINK,$(objdir)/$(1),$(cc.link) -o $(objdir)/$(1) \ 15:14:06 $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.o)) 15:14:07 elliott, hm I now want to try this with some compiler that will error on -std=gnu99 15:14:07 $(if $(cleaning),,-include $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.d)) 15:14:09 I wrote that? 15:14:13 I don't remember writing that. 15:14:15 I wonder what icc will do 15:14:16 Did I write that? 15:14:28 HOW did I write that. 15:14:40 elliott, what does it mean? 15:15:25 http://www.reddit.com/r/types/comments/ev708/the_dialectica_interpertation_in_coq/c1b9pfa 15:15:31 Vorpal: I think it means Zalgo. 15:15:33 HUH CLEVER... NOT HEARD THAT ONE BEFORE 15:15:37 Vorpal: But, um, that's the rule for linking a C program. 15:15:42 Vorpal: Well, part of it. 15:15:48 yeargh 15:16:03 Vorpal: $(1) is the final program name, $(2) are the C files, space-separated. 15:16:21 It's relatively easy to figure out if you know that but, yeck. 15:16:26 j-invariant: did you know 15:16:27 j-invariant: co 15:16:27 q 15:16:29 j-invariant: sounds like cock 15:16:32 elliott, downside of useful.make: simple to use but you are left completely clueless should you ever do something that makes it break ;) 15:16:33 j-invariant: which is a colloquial term for penis 15:16:36 haha INSTANT HILARITY 15:16:47 Vorpal: ABSOLUTELY. And I wrote it! 15:17:01 elliott, well you could probably manage it. But anyone else? 15:17:13 omg! XD 15:17:18 Vorpal: No, I had to debug useful.make when I first put it into practice and it was impossible. 15:17:33 elliott, ah... 15:17:40 j-invariant: wow that Coq code is really elegant 15:17:42 even the proofs 15:17:47 i'm going to kill him and steal his powers 15:17:55 *kill him, steal his heart, and absorb his powers 15:17:55 elliott: makes me happy that the comment is -1 15:18:08 elliott, at least a simple self-contained makefile tends to be easy to understand. 15:18:14 well it's /r/types, more highbrow than the other reddits :P 15:18:21 heh 15:18:25 simple = fits on a screen, or at most two 15:18:26 Vorpal: Not really. Nobody truly understands what Make does. 15:18:34 Vorpal: They think Make works logically, and interpret the Makefile accordingly. 15:18:36 It seems simple. 15:18:45 But in fact it is only for now that their view coincides. 15:18:50 Soon Make will ravage them with its incomprehensibility. 15:19:40 elliott, "# This code is licensed under the WTFPL, version 2" <-- how could they possible need a second version? 15:20:02 Vorpal: I forget what version 1 was. 15:20:13 Vorpal: I think it was literally just the sentence "You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO." 15:20:21 Vorpal: And then Sam Hocevar made the expanded version. 15:20:26 huh 15:20:31 Vorpal: Only v2 is FSF-certified :P (On a mailing list!) 15:20:49 [[An interesting side-anecdote. I was talking to Bradley Kuhn 15:20:49 last year sometime, and he says the FSF's folks had to laugh and agree 15:20:49 that "DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT" is a valid Free Software license (I 15:20:50 think they had received a submission with that string attached). I 15:20:52 suggested that perhaps a useful short license with indemnification of 15:20:54 warranty could be "Do what you want, but it's not my fault!"]] 15:21:18 hah 15:21:24 why are klingons and vulcans and humans so similar? 15:21:52 j-invariant: because the human form is pure perfection^Uactors are cheap 15:22:07 j-invariant, because it's cheaper that way yeah 15:22:20 but seriously? 15:22:35 is there no reason? 15:22:49 j-invariant, budget most probably 15:23:02 [[On rape, the left still doesn't get it 15:23:02 I admire Julian Assange for his work on WikiLeaks, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that he has committed sex crimes]] --Guardian article
Wow, yes, it's pure coincidence that the allegations appeared RIGHT AFTER Assange became a public figure! The fact that one of the women involved published an insane "guide to revenge" including mentioning accusing someone of rape if they cheated on you (IIRC) — who cares! Silly leftist 15:23:02 s. Sigh. 15:23:14 *article \n 15:23:26 I wonder why the Guardian likes to hire someone stupid to write an article every now and then. 15:23:36 Phantom_Hoover linked to that anti-mathematics-education one a while back. 15:26:30 elliott, erm, that wasn't someone stupid they'd hired as a one-off. 15:26:37 Phantom_Hoover: I know that. 15:26:40 That was Simon Jenkins, one of their most prominent columnists. 15:26:44 Phantom_Hoover: I didn't mean they actively hired. 15:26:51 Phantom_Hoover: WHY AM I TERRIBLE AT SENTENCES 15:27:04 Phantom_Hoover: I was using it non-literally in a case where it makes perfect sense to use "hire someone stupid to" literally. 15:27:10 Well, it's the "every now and then". 15:27:23 Well, yes. 15:27:38 Jenkins is a noted hater of science. 15:30:25 -!- j-invariant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:31:31 fizzie: Is opt exposed to the other files? 15:33:52 God, Digg is just... dead. 15:34:20 elliott: Not yet, but you can make it to be. 15:34:43 fizzie: I might just if I can forget my revelation of the past few seconds that everything in the code is tied to the map :P 15:35:05 elliott, isn't that nautral for something called mcmap? 15:35:07 Well, it *is* called "mc*map*", it might be a bit map-oriented. 15:35:12 Xactly. 15:35:18 (Elsewhere again.) 15:35:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 15:35:54 Vorpal: Well I don't WANT to have to fork it and call it sml-mc-instant-server-crasher! 15:36:00 Otherwise Phantom_Hoover_ would be unstoppable. 15:36:36 uh 15:38:05 why is packet_format in .data and not .rodata btw? 15:38:24 means it can't be shared between multiple instances (har har) 15:38:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:39:31 elliott, why is it that almost every non-trivial C project ends up with a header named something like common.h, global.h, shared.h or such... 15:39:43 Vorpal: Because files suck. 15:39:54 ah indeed 15:41:06 elliott, also hfs being case insensitive sounds like it would really make a mess of the unix semantics. Besides wouldn't it be locale dependent? 15:41:17 I did not know that SoyLatte was X11-based. 15:41:28 elliott, how does HFS handle the German ß (isn't it ss in lower case or something?)? 15:41:36 Vorpal: Unix semantics aren't case-sensitive AFAIK. And I think it uses the same algorithm always. 15:41:50 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:mcmap ehird$ touch ß; mv ß ss 15:41:50 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:mcmap ehird$ 15:42:02 So ß is distinct. 15:42:09 elliott, what about ö vs Ö ? 15:42:29 Oh, wait, "mv a A" works. 15:42:39 I'll try it another way. 15:42:58 Vorpal: ö = Ö; \ss != ss 15:43:04 heh 15:43:47 elliott, and once you leave the latin scripts, things get really messy 15:45:11 Vorpal: Yes, well, it is based on HFS, as in 1984 HFS. 15:45:41 Vorpal: They were going to change to ZFS but then ... didn't. 15:45:51 (A year or two ago.) 15:45:58 elliott, well right. But at least back during pre-OS X era they didn't try to shoehorn it into unix 15:46:10 Vorpal: Better than Mac OS Classic :P 15:46:30 elliott, certainly, but at the file system isn't really fit for something unixy 15:46:37 elliott, isn't : still forbidden in filenames? 15:46:51 Vorpal: Nope, you can put : in a filename just fine. It'll show up as / in Finder though. 15:47:02 SCIENCE 15:47:04 elliott, ... awesome 15:47:15 Vorpal: This is actually pretty useful to name things with /s in them X-D 15:47:26 Finder translates back automatically, so you can name files foo/bar. 15:47:52 elliott, I wonder what is actually stored in the fs 15:47:55 I suspect / in fact 15:48:11 Vorpal: I imagine it's translated to : and back at the POSIX layer. 15:48:18 Which I imagine is separate from the underlying FS implementation. 15:48:40 Vorpal: Things like iTunes at least as of a year or two ago would actually show the paths to audio files using the : notation if you can believe that. 15:48:41 elliott, well I imagine it is stored as a / on disk though, to not break compatibility with old HFS and MacOS 15:48:46 Mac OS Classic heritage, woo 15:48:51 Vorpal: Indeed. 15:49:24 elliott, in fact the issue seems to be that if you changed it now you would break compat compared to previous OS X versions 15:49:38 in fact, impossible to change without breaking compat at the point of change. 15:49:50 Vorpal: Mandatory conversion step :P 15:50:02 I can imagine they want to avoid it. 15:51:30 elliott, I think the best option would be to make a new char for path separator. That way there is no conflict 15:51:40 like, a new unicode codepoint 15:51:45 Vorpal: Say NUL. 15:51:50 for efficiency it should probably be stored as a NUL though 15:51:52 yeah 15:52:08 Vorpal: Or how about we store everything as objects!!1111 15:52:18 elliott, In OS X? 15:52:23 Vorpal: The problem with improving filesystems is that if you go too far the filesystem disappears :P 15:52:50 elliott, while I'm all for what you suggest fitting that into a "traditional" OS sounds.... painful 15:53:11 Pah. 15:53:13 @@@@@@ 15:53:33 If you complain it doesn't exist yet, it's useless until you own a large SSD anyway :P 15:53:47 elliott, sure. But apple is not going to switch OS X to use that overnight. Especially since not a single line of code of it exists anywhere 15:53:57 Vorpal: Why not. 15:54:03 elliott, why not what? 15:54:09 Why won't they. 15:54:13 It's perfect! 15:55:24 fizzie: Vorpal: -m now takes the map out of mcmap, leaving mc. 15:55:31 elliott, Even if it is (I don't want a discussion about that atm, it's all too subjective anyway), since when has large companies ever been sane and perfectly rational at compsci. 15:55:43 It should do something like "use much less memory and CPU". 15:55:45 case in point: ipv6 migration. Companies are not perfectly rational. 15:56:01 Vorpal: Clearly Apple should become an anarchist commune? 15:56:03 elliott, so -m means that it just sits there and listens for //goto and //coords? 15:56:09 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes. 15:56:15 Phantom_Hoover_: And lets you chat/read chats from the console. 15:56:25 elliott, I have no good answer to that statement. 15:56:58 Vorpal: What you're saying is YEP INDEED 15:56:59 elliott, but it still links to SDL. You should make it a compile time option, no? 15:57:11 Vorpal: Not really. 15:57:14 Does it matter if it links to SDL? 15:57:26 elliott, no it definitely isn't!. What I'm saying is closer to "undefined" 15:57:40 Oh, wait. 15:57:45 mcmap actually does "while (1);" right now. 15:57:50 So by "less CPU usage" I mean "full CPU usage". 15:57:57 elliott, :D 15:57:59 * elliott fixes 15:58:04 * Sgeo watches videos on moulding obsidian 15:58:17 elliott, as long as you don't break the traditional map stuff 15:58:26 Sgeo, in real life? or mc? 15:58:31 mc 15:58:46 hm yeah I doubt you would mould it in real life 15:59:18 Incidentally, would it be better to place lava into water rather than douse some lava in a mould? 15:59:35 I mean, that way you just need a flooded chamber open at the top. 16:00:13 Phantom_Hoover_, I think it sounds harder to do it that way. Specifically it sounds tricky to get it in the right place 16:00:18 Interestingly mcmap still shows as not responding ...but it only uses 0.1 CPU. And 7 megabytes of real memory. 16:00:31 elliott, does it work in map mode? 16:00:36 Yes. 16:00:39 Probably. 16:00:45 I didn't actually test it but there's no reason it shouldn't. 16:01:22 Pushed a non-98%-CPU-usage patch. 16:01:25 *no= 16:01:26 *no- 16:01:29 Only relevant if you use nomap really. 16:01:33 Which ONLY I DO 16:01:33 elliott, better check to make sure 16:01:36 (I can't atm) 16:01:46 Vorpal: Nope, it's mcmap tradition to not test commits in any way whatsoever. 16:01:47 (not when compiling a C++ program with -j2) 16:02:02 (specifically debug build of llvm) 16:02:07 Technically I broke the rules even by checking that no map popped up. 16:02:21 Vorpal, FWIW, I think using that method placing obsidian is as simple as placing any other block underwater. 16:02:53 Phantom_Hoover_, trickier to deal with if you make a mistake though. Not as simple as simply bucketing it up again. 16:03:15 no shit? 16:03:23 obsidian misplaces are fatal anyway 16:03:25 Vorpal, oh, fair point, 16:03:37 elliott, hardly. But they are annoying 16:04:09 elliott, mining obsidian is after all very slow 16:05:00 * Sgeo imagines building huge minecraft tracks in the Nether 16:05:09 When will the Nether be available in multiplayer? 16:05:19 erm, minecart tracks 16:05:40 hm what are the monster spawning rules in nether. Surely not the same light level as for the "real world"? 16:06:23 The server has been so kwiet recently. 16:06:27 Sgeo: Maybe never. 16:06:35 Portals are apparently going to teleport to other servers by default. 16:06:48 You could maybe do a mod for it, but it'd be very involved. OTOH Notch might add portals that go to the Nether in SMP anyway. 16:07:11 elliott, linky? 16:07:11 elliott, you could do two server. A normal one and a nether one. No? 16:07:16 Sgeo: Link to what. 16:07:23 Vorpal: Well, yes, but inventory would not transfer, would it? 16:07:24 servers* 16:07:27 Your source for " Portals are apparently going to teleport to other servers by default." 16:07:30 elliott, well, who knows 16:07:35 Sgeo: My source is Notch. 16:07:49 elliott, I think I read something about he planned to make it possible to configure servers to trust a list of other ones 16:07:52 or something such 16:07:55 Vorpal: Ah. 16:08:18 Vorpal: Better if he never even realised the potential. Start local server, gift yourself TNT ... 16:09:00 elliott, wouldn't it even require configuring of which server was the teleport target anyway? 16:09:05 How difficult is it to obtain sulfur? 16:09:11 Vorpal: Yes. But it'd be quite easy. 16:09:20 Sgeo: Kill creepers or find it in a dungeon. 16:09:25 On our server, ask HHI; get laughed at. 16:09:47 You could also ask Vorpal but he'd probably ask you what you've done and follow you around for days rather than just laughing at you. 16:10:15 elliott, doesn't ghasts drop sulphur too? 16:10:26 Uh, maybe. Killing creepers is easier and less traumatising. 16:10:31 HHI? 16:10:39 Phantom_Hoover_: "Turns out the team that made Father Ted were Irish! Ireland is now officially better than England." ~~~~~~~~Notch 16:10:45 (Note: The more ~s I use, the more sarcastic I am being.) 16:10:49 Sgeo: Hoover Heavy Industries. 16:11:53 Do creepers and ghasts even exist on the server? 16:11:57 Sgeo, no. 16:12:18 Sgeo, HHI is Phantom_Hoover_'s and elliott's fictional joke company. Specialising in uncompleted projects based on observational data. 16:12:21 The HHI reserves were made in about 20 minutes by elliott using a duplication glitch. 16:12:53 Phantom_Hoover_: CLASSIFIED. 16:12:56 INFOR. 16:12:56 MATION. 16:13:06 Vorpal, actually, HHI was originally founded in order that ROU abandonment would be easier. 16:13:14 Phantom_Hoover_: Also t'was more like 15 minutes. 16:13:15 Phantom_Hoover_, oh? 16:13:17 "abandonment"? 16:13:25 Do dungeons exist? 16:13:35 Sgeo, yep 16:13:47 elliott, I haven't added to it ever since I realised there wasn't a hope in hell of MoveCraft working with something that huge. 16:13:48 I assume that's where elliott got the initial sulphur? 16:14:02 Where *I* got the initial gunpowder. 16:14:10 IT'S CALLED SULPHUR LOL 16:14:31 elliott, I don't think he named it officially before beta added the labels 16:14:32 elliott, I REFUSE TO LISTEN TO AN IDIOT WHO DOESN'T KNOW CHEMISTRY 16:14:45 Phantom_Hoover_: It's TNTnamite. 16:14:50 Sulphur makes TNTnamite. 16:14:59 That annoys me too. 16:15:10 Gunpowder != nitroglycerine != TNT. 16:16:04 They are all completely different compounds. 16:16:12 maybe it is a different TNT 16:16:19 Vorpal, what. 16:16:31 that stands for Tsulphur aNd sandT or something 16:16:36 ... 16:16:39 Tsulphur. 16:16:49 Sandt. 16:16:51 elliott, well yeah. I blame notch 16:17:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmw7JfsNzoY 16:17:17 An educational program about Tsulphur. 16:17:24 third world war? blame notch. End of world? blame notch 16:18:26 lost car keys? guess who to blame! That's right, Notch. 16:18:56 Sgeo, wait, have you actually bought MC? 16:19:04 Phantom_Hoover_, no, but planning to 16:19:05 Phantom_Hoover_: No. He's obsessing about it first. 16:20:07 Sgeo: http://www.ehow.com/how_4777739_debit-card.html 16:20:28 Sgeo: Note lack of step 1, "ask father" 16:24:23 Sgeo: http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/10/20/mind-blown-minecraft-to-link-servers-with-portals/ 16:25:52 Awesome 16:26:00 Sgeo, ahahahahaha 16:26:08 ? 16:26:21 No, that will either a) never happen or b) it will happen and mining will break. 16:26:32 s/mining/anything else you actually want to do/ 16:26:49 Phantom_Hoover_: What will never happen. 16:26:55 elliott, the portal thing. 16:27:05 Phantom_Hoover_: I think it relies on a list of trusted servers. 16:27:17 I mean, he hasn't even got Nether portals working at all. 16:27:30 Phantom_Hoover_, hm? 16:27:48 Sgeo, we have a portal sitting near spawn. It doesn't work. 16:28:06 It does make noises though. 16:28:49 Sgeo, we have a portal sitting near spawn. It doesn't work. <-- I suspect he thought linking servers would be easier than making the server handle two worlds 16:28:57 Heh. 16:29:08 Vorpal: I hate how the Nether transition isn't seamless. 16:29:17 elliott, because it unloads and loads yes 16:29:25 Vorpal: Couldn't he load a few Nether chunks etc. when you come in the vicinity of a Nether portal, in the background? 16:29:27 Then it could be instant. 16:29:34 elliott, probably due to global state messing up 16:29:44 Vorpal: lol. 16:29:46 (probably same reason for servers) 16:30:36 SOMEONE GET ON MINECRAFT ORELSE 16:30:54 Beta has far fewer vertical voxels than Classic, yes? 16:31:49 Phantom_Hoover_: Indeed. 16:31:57 Phantom_Hoover_: classic maps could be 2048x2048x2048 if you had infinity ram. 16:32:17 Phantom_Hoover_: See e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19PZA1tnKtg 16:32:28 There's a ceiling in MC? 16:32:40 Sgeo, you can't build above 128. 16:33:01 How far above that can a player go? 16:33:43 Sgeo, however far he can jump above it I guess? 16:33:48 Sgeo, arbitrarily, as the TNT cannon video demonstrates. 16:34:07 Phantom_Hoover_, hm, surely it doesn't use bignum though? 16:34:15 Phantom_Hoover_, meaning something will hit a limit 16:34:21 if you go high enough 16:34:21 OK, *within the bounds of the coding. 16:34:25 right 16:39:13 Obsidian is TNT resistent? 16:40:32 Sgeo, yep. 16:40:39 yes, it takes a huge amount of TNT *at once* to break obsidian iirc. And that amount would probably crash minecraft anyway. 16:40:40 fizzie: How many packets would I need to handle to get //coords working with nomap? 16:40:42 5000 I think it was 16:47:14 ineiros: Stop skyping :P 16:47:26 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:47:34 elliott, is that fastrender thing open or closed? 16:47:45 Vorpal: Closed like everything, but you can decompile it. 16:50:46 Phantom_Hoover_: downwownwonw 16:51:00 elliott, dunno 16:51:04 elliott, http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160 16:51:09 elliott, no. 16:51:33 Vorpal: seenv 16:51:35 *seen 16:51:38 Vorpal: compatible with FastRender too 16:52:07 elliott: when it's dark, white on black hurts less than black on white, because there is less contrast with surroundings 16:52:10 elliott, looks interesting. My saves backup is >100 MB in disk size. Less than 50 MB in actual file length. 16:52:22 coppro: that's why your monitor has a contrast setting 16:52:23 (not going to check exact values with du atm, it takes too long) 16:52:30 elliott: hah I wish 16:52:37 coppro: um yes it does 16:52:47 Phantom_Hoover_: ping? 16:52:56 Pong. 16:53:01 elliott: I'd love if you could show me where it is 16:53:10 coppro: probably somewhere in your settings. 16:53:14 Phantom_Hoover_: you on the server? 16:53:21 Yes. 16:53:32 elliott: that's software 16:53:37 coppro: that controls hardware 16:54:17 coppro, is it a laptop? If not the monitor probably has a "menu" button or such 16:54:27 it is a laptop 16:54:38 coppro, then I would check in monitor settings 16:54:40 elliott: you said my monitor has a setting; you are wrong 16:54:49 coppro: yes it does 16:54:59 coppro: it is just not exposed via buttons 16:55:14 that's too much work then 16:55:27 plus inversion = hawt 16:55:31 coppro: then stop whining 16:55:41 the fact is your display has a setting 16:58:17 hm I wonder how the brightness buttons on my thinkpad are handled in linux 16:58:38 they are by fn and clearly goes to the OS 16:59:24 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:00:59 Phantom_Hoover_: First generation? 17:01:04 Phantom_Hoover_: You mean you've been there before? 17:01:15 elliott, there? Yes. 17:01:24 Phantom_Hoover_: Hmm. 17:01:40 http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160#p1742827 17:01:42 "Erm.. whos Amdahl lol xD?" 17:03:28 oh dbus 17:04:18 elliott, I can't find contrast control on my thinkpad btw 17:04:33 I wonder where ubuntu hides it 17:06:36 elliott, googling yields no useful results either 17:07:00 Phantom_Hoover_: TREEHOUSE 17:08:23 elliott, TOO DIFFICULT 17:08:32 Phantom_Hoover_: LAME 17:08:41 Phantom_Hoover_: We could life of the fatta tha land! 17:08:53 elliott, tree house eh? sounds fun 17:09:07 Vorpal, until you accidentally remove a leaf block. 17:09:07 Vorpal: We found a nice tree. 17:09:43 ""The Basic Texture pack is developed for people who own slow computers or suffer from lag, giving you and your computer a better time, while retaining the minecraft feel." 17:09:54 This idiot thinks that making textures have more solid colours makes the rendering go faste.r 17:09:56 *faster. 17:10:00 Let us laugh. 17:10:28 Phantom_Hoover_, quite 17:10:43 elliott, link? 17:10:52 elliott, the beta tree rules are "within 4 blocks of a log, and connected to the log by leaves (or directly)" iirc 17:10:56 http://www.adkins-online.com.au/minecraftbasic/; site requires Flash so I can't see it. 17:11:05 which differs from the old leaf rules in alpha-with-decay 17:11:09 I HAVE FLASH 17:11:41 This pack seems nice, FWIW: http://www.largames.com/games/games-in-general/160-largamesminecraft.html 17:13:17 elliott: No Skyping this week. I'm still at work at the moment. 17:13:29 ineiros: Pah. 17:13:39 elliott, Christ, the Basic texture pack spells "normal" as "normle". 17:13:51 Phantom_Hoover_: Notch quality. 17:14:15 my god microsoft is retarded 17:14:25 It also speaks of "test's" and that it runs "with out" computers running "slowley". 17:14:26 "let's make phones upload up to 50 MB of data each day" 17:14:32 what can possibly go wrong 17:15:14 coppro, they did that? uploading what sort of stuff? 17:16:31 elliott, FWIW, people claim to have FPS rises when using it. 17:16:45 Phantom_Hoover_: People claim homeopathy works. 17:17:36 elliott, yes, but this is actually objectively measurable. 17:17:47 Phantom_Hoover_: But has it been objectively measured? 17:18:41 elliott, well, the FPS is hard to get wrong, although I doubt they understand rigour. 17:19:48 Phantom_Hoover_: Same scene, actions etc. 17:20:03 Vorpal: Name my pack! 17:20:16 elliott, you aren't making a texture pack, are you? 17:20:25 Phantom_Hoover_: M... m... may... shut up. 17:20:31 Phantom_Hoover_: It's not even going to be single-colour! 17:21:36 Phantom_Hoover_: Not sure whether it'll be 16x or 32x; probably 16xl 17:21:38 *16x. 17:21:45 elliott, ? 17:21:53 Vorpal: Texture pack. 17:24:27 elliott, the 1x1 one? 17:24:30 "Water cannot be found in The Nether and water from a bucket will evaporate as soon as it touches anything in there." 17:24:33 Vorpal: No :P 17:24:37 elliott, then what 17:24:43 Does that include, say, cobblestone made by a player there? 17:24:50 Vorpal: Just a texture pack. 17:24:52 Sgeo: Probably. 17:24:53 If so, it's impossible to mould a portal in the Nether 17:24:59 Sgeo: That is not true. 17:25:08 Sgeo: You mine your old portal. And actually you probably can wtaer your own blocks. 17:25:09 *water 17:25:14 elliott, I can name it when I see what it looks like 17:25:18 elliott, show me some screenshots 17:25:23 Vorpal: Haven't started yet :P 17:25:31 elliott, can't mine your old portal without diamond pickaxe anyway 17:25:38 Well, if you want the obsidian back 17:25:40 Sgeo: So get a diamond pickaxe. 17:25:43 elliott, can't name it then. A hd pack might need a different name than a 1x1 pack 17:25:53 for example 17:25:56 Vorpal: 16x. Like Painterly, just less cluttered and not stupidly ornate. 17:26:07 elliott, drawingly? 17:27:08 Vorpal: xD 17:27:27 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Water#Infinite_Spring_Duplication is this deliberate? 17:27:42 Sgeo: Who cares, it's damn useful. 17:27:58 If it's not deliberate, it might be removed 17:29:39 I believe it is deliberate 17:29:59 Since lava doesn't do it. 17:30:12 Phantom_Hoover_, when it comes to notch such a thing means very little 17:30:12 Oh wow. 17:30:23 Looking at the Minecraft font... it's code page 437. 17:30:26 Welcome to the 80s, Notch. 17:30:33 elliott, ;D 17:30:36 :D* 17:30:44 Verry tempted to try and replace it with the actual code page 437 font now. 17:30:58 Except I think the dimensions are different. 17:31:24 Is even someone like Notch capable of writing code that causes new water sources to be made like that accidentally? 17:31:40 Sgeo: Notch is capable of all bugs. 17:31:58 the booster thing started as a bug I think 17:33:09 You know what would be an awesome pack? 17:33:12 The default one, but shuffled randomly. 17:33:19 It would be hilarious. 17:33:28 elliott, the faster render thing helps a bit. 5-10 FPS or so. None of those huge speedups that some people reported in comments. And you still get a lot of "jerks" in the gameplay 17:33:47 The internet is full of jerks, silly. 17:33:49 which is the primary thing making it unplayable in single player atm 17:33:57 elliott, .... different meaning of the word :P 17:34:03 Vorpal: Try the region mod? 17:34:10 elliott, yeah might later 17:37:14 elliott, the thing is, I get those jerks even if I don't move. it is enough to pan the view between a chest and workbench in front of me. So chunk loading doesn't sound like it. 17:37:27 I blame Notch. 17:37:38 elliott, well duh 17:37:45 * Sgeo watches someone build a house 17:37:53 Sgeo, large? 17:37:54 * Sgeo decides that he wants to build a swimming pool 17:38:05 fizzie did that 17:38:11 two in fact 17:39:11 elliott, btw built a gate in single player. Gate as in "castle scale" gate with portcullis and so on. 17:39:48 lawl 17:39:52 does it go down :P 17:40:22 Vorpal, well, I'll make a larger one 17:40:24 * Sgeo growls 17:40:50 elliott, well no. Not without some mod that makes fence posts and redstone interact 17:41:07 elliott, I'll take a screenshot shortly 17:41:26 Sgeo: do you actually growl. 17:41:42 * Sgeo hits elliott. 17:41:50 About as much as I actually hit you just now 17:41:58 SURE THING FURRY 17:42:41 elliott, mcmap map mode seems broken btw 17:42:46 elliott, I just tried it 17:42:59 Vorpal: Probably I said opt.nomap where I meant !opt.nomap 17:43:03 Grep main.c :P 17:43:38 elliott, the window pops up, then login hangs 17:44:18 Sgeo is a furry? 17:44:31 coppro: He growls, he must be. 17:44:43 Also Phantom_Hoover_ has SOLID EVIDENCE of him being in a FURRY SUIT. 17:45:04 A BLOOD furry! 17:45:06 * augur growls at coppro 17:45:18 Phantom_Hoover_: What a sick, sick fetish! 17:45:24 IT'S SO DISGUSTING 17:45:34 Like vampires, only WEIRDER. 17:45:43 I am puking as we speak! 17:45:53 you know, i think of all of us, elliott is the only one who can be reliably said to be likely to growl 17:46:00 what 17:46:14 only its an incidental growl thats intended to be a grumble 17:46:16 elliott, the gate btw: http://ompldr.org/vNnR5aA/2011-01-03_18.43.47.png 17:46:30 augur: what 17:46:36 YOU HEARD ME 17:47:29 maybe I should add another semi-hidden layer of fence on top 17:47:33 might look better 17:48:02 Vorpal, ...how big is your castle. 17:48:15 I could really do with a zip mounter. 17:48:24 Phantom_Hoover_, not a castle. Just a checkpoint in a pass between two high mountains 17:48:40 FWIW, I have actually made significant progress on my SSP world. 17:48:41 Phantom_Hoover_, the location was perfect for it 17:48:48 Phantom_Hoover_: Set it to HARD. 17:48:50 It now has PANORAMIC WINDOWS 17:48:56 elliott, what does that do? 17:49:09 Phantom_Hoover_: Makes things more explody and longer-living. 17:49:16 Things being bad things. 17:49:19 elliott, meh. 17:49:23 Phantom_Hoover_, for castle I go obsidian instead. 17:49:26 Wimp. 17:49:28 (for lower sections) 17:49:46 elliott, I have a completely secure shelter and mine; I never get mobs within 5 metres of me. 17:49:58 Phantom_Hoover_: Do you *ever* explore? 17:50:04 elliott, not really. 17:50:11 Phantom_Hoover_: How utterly boring. 17:50:48 If I want to explore I can just go onto ineiros' server. 17:51:03 It's not as if the terrain generator is different. 17:51:13 OH MY GOD MAKING TEXTURE PACKS IS SO HARD 17:51:19 Phantom_Hoover_, this is somewhat outdated: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.26.07.png 17:51:21 IT IS 17:51:24 I WANT MY MOMMY 17:51:28 THE COMPUTER IS MY FRIEND 17:51:29 coppro: ;_; 17:51:29 (the thing is significantly larger now) 17:51:48 Vorpal, how the hell did you get that much TNT? 17:51:51 coppro, :D 17:51:56 Phantom_Hoover_, TNT? 17:52:04 Erm *obsidian 17:52:20 Phantom_Hoover_, also there is a nether portal just inside. Ends up right next to a huge lava lake. Which used to be even huger 17:52:29 Vorpal, aaaaaah. 17:52:43 elliott: i wrote a scheme preprocessor that will do a form of CPS on delimited continuations using zippers :T 17:52:44 elliott: you are insufficiently happy, citizen 17:52:46 Phantom_Hoover_, quite a chore still. Considering the dimensions of it 17:52:49 being insufficiently happy is treason 17:52:52 augur: Dear god. 17:52:55 CPS transform** 17:53:03 Phantom_Hoover_, see this too: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.21.47.png 17:53:07 elliott: dear god what? :P 17:53:13 augur: I. 17:53:22 An obsidian fortress with wooden doors. 17:53:27 Phantom_Hoover_, also floor is obsidian a bit inwards (not the hole bottom floor yet, though that is the plan) 17:53:27 There is no higher comedy. 17:53:34 Phantom_Hoover_, I changed that since I took those screenshots 17:53:35 elliott: finish that thought please 17:53:40 Phantom_Hoover_, I was low on iron back then 17:53:41 augur: . 17:53:49 Phantom_Hoover_: And dirt below it no less. 17:53:51 Phantom_Hoover_, due to all the buckets 17:53:56 elliott: :| 17:53:59 "So here we have the soil ... and then we put some obsidian on top of it." 17:54:02 "Lots of obsidian in fact." 17:54:12 elliott: oh wait, you hate scheme right? well, it'd work for CL too 17:54:18 augur: what 17:54:22 augur: since when do i 17:54:29 oh i dont know, you confuse me 17:54:30 anyway 17:54:34 Well, fizzie did build a bunker which can be blown wide open with a lucky hit from a creeper. 17:54:34 elliott, quite. But since floor is obisidian it will at worst end up as a floating box (well, the middle of the floor is currently cobble in part) 17:54:35 its really just an sexp manipulate 17:54:37 elliott: For //coords you need to handle those PACKET_ENTITY_* it already handles, plus PACKET_PLAYER_MOVE and PACKET_PLAYER_MOVE_ROTATE. 17:54:42 augur: I _like_ Scheme. 17:54:45 o ok 17:55:02 fizzie: TOO MUCH WORK 17:55:02 elliott, and I checked with TNT next to wall, it doesn't quite reach up to the stone sections :) 17:55:17 elliott, besides I will have a moat OF LAVA around the fort. 17:55:29 *moat OF TNT 17:55:42 anyway, elliott, it takes expressions like this: (+ 1 (reset x (* 2 (shift x (- 3 x))))) 17:55:45 elliott, not really now 17:55:46 no* 17:56:01 augur: but you can do delim continuations with real continuations. you prolly know that 17:56:10 elliott, I suspect that much TNT would reach up to the stone section anyway 17:56:14 Vorpal, whyever not? 17:56:23 Phantom_Hoover_, whyever not what? 17:56:32 It would certainly kill any intruders. 17:56:40 elliott: oh yes, but the point was to do delimited continuations without any magic 17:56:44 and to do it with a preprocessor 17:56:48 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:56:51 Phantom_Hoover_, ... right and demolish everything around it 17:56:52 and to do it syntactically via zippers 17:56:54 it was an exercise 17:57:09 Phantom_Hoover_, probably down to the minecart system level even (which is at around alt 28 or something such) 17:57:11 Vorpal, FLOATING CASTLE 17:57:29 Like your bunker in Mt. Vorpal. 17:57:39 Phantom_Hoover_, ... 17:57:43 -!- santiago_ has joined. 17:58:02 Vorpal, the one 20 metres above sea level? 17:58:22 YOR NOT MENT TO KNOW ABOUT THAT 17:58:31 Phantom_Hoover_, this is single player... 17:58:44 elliott: Your latest nomap change managed to remove the proxy-thread creation completely when !opt.nomap. 17:58:52 elliott: im teaching a sort of SICP++ to a friend 17:59:01 fizzie, yes I told him it was broken several minutes ago 17:59:03 augur: has he actually read sicp 17:59:03 nomap? 17:59:04 Vorpal, the point is that if Mt. Vorpal is attacked, the bunker will be floating in midair. 17:59:07 fizzie: Oh yes, indeed. 17:59:12 fizzie: Well, SEP. 17:59:14 Phantom_Hoover_, I don't see the issue with that 17:59:25 Phantom_Hoover_, apart from it being attacked is an issue 17:59:31 elliott: we're using it as source material. its mostly SICP, and then some stuff beyond sicp but bolted onto the SICP model 17:59:40 i see. 18:00:16 Vorpal, so when you decide to rebuild the world after ineiros' attack you will step outside and promptly fall to your death. 18:00:21 elliott: so like, we're going to implement a primitive pattern matching system on top of the interpreter, and use that as a springboard to discuss unification 18:00:37 elliott: we're also going to use it as a springboard to discuss ADTs 18:00:59 ADTs! 18:01:02 generic operators will give us a means of getting into type systems 18:01:05 Phantom_Hoover_, anyway for my other single player world I devised a much better way to build a fort. Obsidian for a tiny ladder shaft up from ground. to the fort, which is "balanced" on this shaft. And which doesn't need to be in obsidian 18:01:08 i fucking love ADTs, can i just say 18:01:11 Can mapping stuff be used with multiplayer stuff? 18:01:25 i love ruby but there are so many times when i wish it had ADTs 18:01:25 Sgeo: mcmap can. 18:01:31 augur: ruby is terrible 18:01:37 Sgeo, it can *only* be used in SMP. 18:01:37 Phantom_Hoover_, then I would have to build on top of bedrock :P 18:01:46 elliott: meh. i like it. but i wish it had GADTs and types 18:01:54 augur: and didn't have mutability. 18:01:55 SMP = Survival MultiPlayer? 18:02:00 Vorpal, seems the logical place to put a bunker. 18:02:02 augur: and was functional. 18:02:02 Sgeo, yes. 18:02:03 elliott: i dont mind the mutability. 18:02:06 augur: you should. 18:02:26 Phantom_Hoover_, takes far to long to reach in an emergency 18:02:32 Vorpal, dropshaft. 18:02:37 true 18:02:52 elliott: i mean, i use mutability sparingly anyway, but when i do its in a sort of .. whats the word for it 18:03:03 augur: dangerous? 18:03:05 single-reference object? 18:03:06 no no 18:03:10 augur: evil? 18:03:10 Note: I am putting this into Mt. Hoover so don't you dare steal it. 18:03:12 augur: antipattern? 18:03:16 augur: leaky abstraction/ 18:03:18 ? 18:03:21 i mean i use mutability when the mutated object is private, so to speak 18:03:22 Phantom_Hoover_, anyway speaking of that gate, I think it would be cool to build a castle on that scale. 18:03:38 Vorpal, you'd need to light the internals. 18:03:42 Phantom_Hoover_, though even that gate took several hours in game time (and it's solid, though cobble inside, not stone) 18:03:51 -!- santiago_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 18:04:00 Phantom_Hoover_, well duh I need torches yes. So? 18:04:09 Phantom_Hoover_, or wait 18:04:12 you mean the gate 18:04:14 why are we in #minecrack 18:04:15 Vorpal, OMG make a motte and bailey. 18:04:15 not the future castle? 18:04:26 i mean, i probably use mutability elsewhere, but its usually in that form. i tend to use mostly functional style in ruby anyway 18:04:29 Phantom_Hoover_, what on earth is/are that/those? 18:04:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey 18:05:03 Phantom_Hoover_, I was thinking a vasaborg. Whatever those are called in English 18:05:09 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 18:05:27 Phantom_Hoover_: HHI needs an IRC server. 18:05:52 Phantom_Hoover_, example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/%C3%96rebro_castle_in_Sweden.jpg 18:05:58 elliott: did i tell you, chris barker was at UMD in november 18:06:02 Vorpal, model of Edinburgh castle? 18:06:06 augur: yes 18:06:07 Phantom_Hoover_, ? 18:06:15 elliott: hes pretty cool 18:06:20 WHAT A BEAR 18:06:22 D 18:06:22 OTOH, obsidian would be the logical replacement for basalt here... 18:06:25 .. beard 18:06:28 >.> 18:06:43 Vorpal, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_castle 18:06:43 Phantom_Hoover_, this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/EdinburghCastle.jpg 18:06:43 elliott: because of him, i now understand the reader monad 18:06:48 but only moderately! 18:07:01 Phantom_Hoover_, if so... far too ornate. 18:07:01 augur: it's the same as the (->) monad 18:07:01 It's sited on top of a basalt plug. 18:07:11 elliott: it is, but now i understand that! :) 18:07:26 augur, how hard is it to understand? 18:07:33 Phantom_Hoover_: not hard at all! 18:07:46 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:07:46 augur, so how didn't you? 18:07:54 Phantom_Hoover_: frame of mind 18:08:33 i generally come to understand things by analogizing them to their equivalents in linguistics 18:08:37 -!- elliott has joined. 18:09:01 Vorpal, well, it'd be something to do with a map editor, at least initially. 18:09:17 Phantom_Hoover_, well sure. I'm not going to use a map editor 18:09:19 Phantom_Hoover_: so its hard for me to sort of .. grok the typical haskellish discussion 18:09:43 Phantom_Hoover_, mine will be stone I guess. When/if I make it. 18:09:43 i also need very ground up explanations; i still dont understand monad transformers properly, despite philippa's efforts 18:09:47 Vorpal, well, just for the initial geography. 18:09:52 Phantom_Hoover_: What is he doing. 18:10:02 elliott, augur or Vorpal? 18:10:07 augur: Monad transformers are ... really simple. 18:10:08 Phantom_Hoover_: Vorp. 18:10:17 elliott, castle AFAIK. 18:10:18 Phantom_Hoover_, will model it one one of these I guess: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Kalmar_slott.jpg or http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/%C3%96rebro_castle_in_Sweden.jpg 18:10:27 elliott: so im told, but they havent yet fit into place in my mental picture of things 18:10:36 Phantom_Hoover_, no, I'm not. I'm considering doing that. 18:11:08 Vorpal, that sucks! 18:11:18 MOTTE AND BAILEY 18:11:19 Phantom_Hoover_, also you plan to make Edinburgh castle? Good luck, it looks rather complex. 18:11:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:11:49 Phantom_Hoover_, well. It's my single player game. I'll let you do whatever you want in your :) 18:12:04 elliott: i have a very visual tendency when trying to understand code, and its very hard for me to visualize monad transformers 18:12:23 Phantom_Hoover_, besides "A motte-and-bailey is a form of castle situated on a raised earthwork and surrounded by a protective fence" <-- the MC fence would look tiny and silly in this context 18:12:38 augur: sry but when I hear "visual learner" i hear "idiot" :} 18:13:05 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:13:26 elliott, what's wrong with visualisation? 18:13:30 elliott: i dont know if im a "visual learner", i just tend to visualize a computation 18:13:45 Phantom_Hoover_: nothing, but "visual learner" almost always means "unable to think abstractly". 18:13:52 symbols, bitch. 18:13:55 elliott, oh. 18:13:59 oh yes, symbols definitely 18:14:07 but i need to see how the symbols FLOW 18:14:10 sort of 18:14:26 i cant just look at a definition and understand it 18:14:28 augur: try lsd 18:14:37 i mean, i could grind through it 18:14:48 but i wouldnt intuitively get how to make it anew 18:14:50 elliott, I was going to suggest printing and then using tap water 18:14:55 elliott: im working on it xP 18:14:58 its hard to get you know 18:15:04 elliott, though, I doubt that works with laser printers 18:15:22 augur: I suggest you do it alone! And next to the computer with all your files on. 18:15:28 augur: You'll probably end up dying but it'll be hilarious for the rest of us. 18:15:38 Or worse, wiping your disk. 18:15:46 elliott: "with all your files on" what? 18:15:53 augur: So I could end with "wiping your disk". 18:15:58 Shut up. 18:16:09 Vorpal: Yeah, the "garbage on map because of torch" is because when you put a torch at Y=127, it sends block-set messages for Y=128 to "change" that block to air. 18:16:10 oh, "~ on it"? 18:16:12 (Fixed that.) 18:16:27 you probably WOULDNT end up wiping the disk, actually 18:16:29 fizzie, hm but why did it happen at y=125 then too? 18:17:09 It seems to send those pretty randomly whenever you are high altitudes. 18:17:17 augur: Admittedly doing something stupid and dying sounds more likely. 18:17:26 elliott: not really 18:17:30 augur: *More* likely. 18:17:32 19:24:35 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4 18:17:32 19:24:35 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0 18:17:32 19:24:36 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4 18:17:32 19:24:36 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0 18:17:32 19:24:36 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4 18:17:32 19:24:36 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0 18:17:37 Perhaps it's just best not to wonder. 18:17:38 fizzie, heh 18:17:53 elliott: people generally dont do stupid things and die when on LSD 18:18:04 augur: No, but they do it more often than they rm -rf / 18:18:22 elliott: i'd need to see a study to believe that! 18:18:24 fizzie, was that for placing /one/ torch? 18:18:47 augur: "Remove... recursively... forced... root" vs "Ooh it's cheese. Oh the cheese is hollow. Ooh wind. This is ni" 18:18:51 Vorpal: Well, one cobblestone. And it was just a snippet, there were about 6 more lines. 18:18:56 (Depiction of LSD 100% ACCURATE) 18:19:08 .. beard <-- yeah, SURE... 18:19:23 oerjan: well hes more of an otter anyway, right, so. 18:19:25 what 18:19:28 augur is like 3 years old he can't grow a beard 18:19:33 fizzie, some waste data there heh 18:19:37 oerjan: what line is that from 18:19:42 wait i was prolly offline 18:19:48 elliott: me talking about chris barker just five minutes ago 18:19:54 he has an awesome beard 18:22:12 bbl 18:26:39 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:27:58 -!- elliott has joined. 18:30:30 axiom 18:30:53 A is A 18:31:54 scrap your boilerplate looks really interesting 18:34:10 oerjan, NaN. Q.E.D. 18:34:48 oerjan: objectivist 18:35:36 Phantom_Hoover_: it's not my fault that IEEE numbers don't obey the rules of predicate logic with equality 18:35:47 elliott: that was the joke 18:35:54 oerjan, YES IT IS 18:35:57 oerjan: objectivists don't joke 18:37:18 elliott: possible 18:37:21 Jokes are SOCIALIST 18:37:22 Phantom_Hoover_: impossible 18:37:46 SOCIALIST are JOKES 18:38:01 (The one objectivist I have met uses the terms "socialist", "communist", and "fascist" completely interchangeably.) 18:38:31 well that person was stupid 18:39:01 its like words dont have meanings anymore T_T 18:39:18 augur: all objectivists are stupid 18:39:26 elliott: true! 18:40:30 -!- Behold has joined. 18:40:34 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 18:44:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:45:16 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:55:33 elliott, EXECUTIVE DECISION: 18:55:54 HHI's research department should be moved to a midair fortress. 18:55:59 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes. 18:56:03 Phantom_Hoover_: On top of Mount Vorpal. 18:56:09 elliott, no. 18:56:12 Yes. 18:56:14 No. 18:56:17 WHO IS THE CEO HERE 18:57:17 elliott, you are just trying to troll me by suggesting that. I know you won't do it. 18:57:51 Phantom_Hoover_: Me. 18:58:01 elliott, no. 18:58:11 Phantom_Hoover_: When you went on leave to a luxurious Mount Vorpal holiday and demoted me, I climbed up the ranks slowly. 18:58:13 To SUPER CEO. 18:58:24 Then when you rejoined, the reanks realigned; you're INFERIOR CEO, I'm CEO. 18:58:32 elliott, foolish youth. 18:59:00 I AM OMEGA CEO FOR LIFE 18:59:04 elliott, I think doing it right on top of ineiros's tower is better 18:59:10 Vorpal. 18:59:25 elliott, yes? 18:59:30 Mount Vorpal. 18:59:34 elliott, no 18:59:38 Yes. 19:00:01 elliott, no. 19:00:06 yes 19:00:08 WHO IS THE CEO HERE <-- * oerjan gets a calvin an hobbes treehouse backflash 19:00:13 *and 19:00:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 19:00:36 elliott, no and I don't have time to discuss further. bbl 19:00:44 Phantom_Hoover_: "Discuss". 19:00:54 That was some discussion I had with Vorpal there! 19:01:03 elliott, not enough vertical space above Mt. Vorpal. 19:01:08 Phantom_Hoover_: Make some! 19:01:24 If he had any significant sea-level constructions, maybe. 19:03:21 Phantom_Hoover_: We could build it around his two gigantic waterfalls. 19:03:50 elliott, giving Vorpal easy access to this facility is not an option. 19:03:54 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:05:05 Phantom_Hoover_: OK, I suggest we construct it entirely out of obsidian, from level 128 downwards, and then empty out the entire space below it, such that to enter, you have to jump down to bedrock, solve a redstone puzzle, go in a boat elevator, and then enter an iron door. 19:05:16 Good enough? 19:05:33 elliott, no, since getting in would still be trivial. 19:05:39 Phantom_Hoover_: Um, how? 19:05:56 Phantom_Hoover_: Sure, you could build a gigantic path from ground to there, but you'd have to break through obsidian. 19:06:08 elliott, cobble tower to the necessary level, then use the normal entrance. 19:06:45 Phantom_Hoover_: Impossible. 19:06:51 Phantom_Hoover_: The entire path upwards is coated in obsidian. 19:07:00 Phantom_Hoover_: i.e., thin obsidian tower up like 64 levels, and then the actual facility. 19:07:08 The actual facility is completely covered. 19:07:44 Phantom_Hoover_: And if you're going to say "But you could get in by just breaking two obsidian!", well, that applies to EVERYTHING. 19:07:51 My ideal method of access would be to install MoveCraft and have an HHI airship. 19:08:03 But that's not going to happen. 19:08:04 Phantom_Hoover_: Yeeeeees. 19:08:10 Phantom_Hoover_: So, let's get a shitload of lava and water. 19:09:10 Phantom_Hoover_: Any ... ideas for that? 19:10:43 Phantom_Hoover_: See /msg. 19:22:59 beeeh 19:23:09 minecraft refuses to work on my ubuntu 19:25:47 FWIW, "java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp /path/to/Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame" seems to work fine on this Ubuntu 10.10 w/ the default openjdk-6-jre 6b20-1.9.2-0ubuntu2; but that's just me, I've heard people complain about OpenJDK before. 19:26:09 The memory limits could be bigger too. 19:26:56 it just blackscreens 19:27:18 I hear sun-java6-jre works more reliababbely. 19:27:29 But I'unno. 19:27:40 nooga: doesn't work in browser 19:27:51 http://timashley.me/node/596 19:27:54 i found this 19:28:56 Looks like manually swabbing lwjgl versions. 19:29:19 that's what i'm trying to do after jars download 19:30:16 elliott, down? 19:30:20 Vorpal: no 19:30:42 nooga: use sun jvm. also, you pirated it, didn't you? 19:31:14 sure 19:31:22 i wouldn't pay for something i can;t try 19:31:29 and it does not work properly 19:31:41 nooga: um, yes, because all the pirated ones are ancient. 19:31:41 if i like it i will buy it 19:31:45 if not - i will remove it 19:31:51 nooga: um, yes, because all the pirated ones are ancient. 19:31:54 which is why it doesn't work 19:32:03 anyway _nobody_ gives a shit because you whine about Minecraft sucking constantly. 19:32:06 so whatever. 19:32:28 this looks like 1.1_02 19:36:29 nooga, beta or alpha? 19:37:00 1.1_02 sounds like a beta version number to me. 19:40:54 aha! 19:41:03 Phantom_Hoover_: see game. 19:41:11 1.1_02 fully working 19:41:22 elliott, I appear not to have MC open. 19:41:27 Phantom_Hoover_: Why not. 19:41:33 No idea. 19:41:40 Phantom_Hoover_: OPEN 19:57:23 oh 19:57:36 now suddenly it's dark and i can't find coal for a torch 19:57:53 am i supposed to sit in my shelter til morning comes? 19:58:10 nooga: yes. 19:58:12 nooga: you failed. 19:59:43 how long is the night? 20:00:23 nooga: as long as the day. well, almost. 20:00:38 like 7 minutes + a bit vs. 10 minute day 20:00:49 oh 20:04:49 nooga, what's your shelter type? 20:05:35 Hollow in a hillside, small hut on a plain? 20:06:15 Castle in a ... fastle? 20:08:26 hollow in a hillside 20:08:40 i closed the entrance with dirt 20:08:57 nooga: You might want a door. 20:09:05 Also, make sure it's not too big a hollow; monsters can spawn in small spaces. 20:09:18 You probably want a torch. 20:09:22 Or twenty. 20:11:29 or peaceful 20:11:31 elliott, hostile mobs don't spawn within 25m of you. 20:12:31 nooga, you might want to play on peaceful to learn the game mechanics. Just a suggestion. 20:12:45 Phantom_Hoover_: Ah. 20:12:51 nooga: Don't; Vorpal is a wimp. 20:13:04 elliott, thanks. 20:13:38 i can't find coal 20:14:02 nooga: It's underground. 20:14:04 Or in cliff faces. 20:14:11 nooga, hm. look on cliff sides for black dots, or underground as elliott suggested. 20:14:58 Finding coal is the hardest part. 20:15:20 Phantom_Hoover_, of the entire game. Hm quite true. 20:15:30 No, of the initial stages. 20:15:33 fffuu 20:15:41 i just screwed 20:15:54 i'm in a dark cavern with no light 20:15:55 You need either nice terrain or enough time to set up a mine 20:16:27 nooga, "oops" 20:16:41 how do i respawn/die anything? 20:17:06 nooga, you die by getting killed. then you respawn at start with inventory dropped where you died. 20:17:16 note: objects on ground time out. 20:17:26 not sure if they time out if the chunk is unloaded 20:17:31 i don't want to weit 20:17:36 or if it only counts down when the chunk in loaded 20:17:37 guess i'll start over 20:17:39 nooga, "weit"? 20:17:42 wait 20:17:45 nooga, ah 20:18:00 ypo 20:18:04 nooga, I still suggest peaceful to figure out the game. Even though elliott says it is wimpy 20:18:04 typo :D 20:18:09 nooga: Patience helps. 20:18:20 nooga: P.S. place doors from outside. 20:21:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:23:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:29:17 doors from outside? 20:31:49 nooga: yes. 20:31:53 don't place them from the inside. 20:32:05 uhuh 20:32:16 nooga: you can fight monsters if you place them from outside 20:32:17 i can imagine that monsters will be able to open them 20:32:22 nooga: um no. 20:32:25 they can't. 20:32:38 YET 20:33:49 oerjan: ever :P 20:34:01 elliott, weeeeelllll... 20:34:12 Phantom_Hoover_: NO 20:34:17 elliott: SPECIEST 20:34:22 Notch has no problems with making things pointlessly harder. 20:34:31 *SPECIESIST 20:35:40 Phantom_Hoover_: Soon they will be solving redstone puzzles. 20:36:14 Oh, god, when will \sqrt{-\Garfield} stop that goddamn meme. 20:36:16 so 20:36:27 what am i supposed to do at night? 20:36:37 can i at least mine? 20:36:44 nooga, yes. 20:36:57 Although you don't want to leave areas of the mine in darkness. 20:36:59 nooga: Yes. Make sure to keep all caverns well-lit because monsters can spawn in them. 20:37:10 nooga: You can also go outside as long as you have a lot of armour and a goodsword. 20:37:37 nooga: If you start expanding your realms by exploring in the day, you can mark your path with torch and then build underground minecart tracks at your convenience; so you can visit your territories at night, too. 20:37:54 nooga: And you can always build, so long as you don't go too close to the wrong parts of the surface. 20:38:14 I have actually taken direct hits from a creeper with trivial damage. 20:38:33 Armour saves lives, kids! 20:38:54 Phantom_Hoover_: Well, um, yeah, if you have decent armour you can go crazy. 20:38:58 Oh, creepers. 20:39:01 Right. 20:39:09 Phantom_Hoover_: It's actually pretty safe at night if you have a good sword, full armour, and some food. 20:39:13 Irritating, definitely. 20:39:16 Dangerous, meh. 20:42:03 Phantom_Hoover_: The problem is that getting to that stage is ... tedious. 20:42:27 i need armor huh 20:42:41 nooga, you need iron, first. 20:42:56 Which requires lots of coal and a functioning mine. 20:45:30 whoa 20:45:40 it's already day but monsters are out 20:47:00 They don't vanish; you have to wait. 20:47:16 nooga: Most of them burn. 20:47:21 nooga: If you mean creepers, they stay. Forever. 20:47:28 nooga: If you mean spiders, they're peaceful in the day unless you attack them. 20:47:33 But at night... they'll go rabid again. 20:47:37 elliott, erm, no. 20:47:45 Phantom_Hoover_: Info from minecraftwiki. 20:47:56 During the day, Spiders become passive, and will not become aggressive unless they are attacked. When spiders are in a passive condition, their eyes do not glow red. The player will not receive damage if they touch them. Spiders become aggressive again as soon as night falls or if the player moves into darkness. If they were chasing the player during the night, they will usually continue to chase them during daylight. 20:47:56 Creepers disappear eventually; this much is obvious. 20:48:02 Phantom_Hoover_: Ok. Yes. 20:48:07 But I prefer to think they just go elsewhere. 20:48:12 Phantom_Hoover_: They certainly don't disappear in one day. 20:48:53 Phantom_Hoover_: Hey... mobs don't spawn on half blocks or glass. 20:49:01 Phantom_Hoover_: Build tall wall around huge area. Fill huge area with half blocks. 20:49:02 ??? 20:49:03 Profit! 20:49:25 elliott, or just light it up? 20:49:40 Vorpal: SHUT YOUR MOUTH, THIS IS BETTER 20:50:15 elliott, you can't place torches on halfblocks. Nor minecart tracks or anything else that needs to rest on them. 20:50:43 elliott, but filling with glass sounds more fun 20:50:50 Vorpal: You can't place anything on glass either :P 20:51:05 Vorpal: But you just build all those in your fortress and underground obviously. 20:51:15 elliott, yeah but at least placing solid blocks on top won't look like they hover on top 20:51:27 Vorpal: That would look awesome. 20:51:31 elliott, hm 20:51:41 "Ghasts aim at the camera, not the player. Going into 3rd person mode and having a ghast fire a fireball at you will go over the player, given the right camera angle." 20:51:48 Stop filming me! 20:51:51 elliott, .... what the fuck 20:51:58 notch quality 20:52:07 elliott, wouldn't that be more work 20:52:11 NOTCH QUALITY 20:52:18 The camera is an object I think, so no. 20:52:18 elliott, in the ghast case you have to think it might be intentional 20:52:27 Doubt it 20:52:30 hm 20:53:21 light repels them? 20:53:34 elliott, do they spawn in light area in nether? 20:53:38 areas* 20:53:44 Vorpal: They spawn in any light area, yes. 20:53:47 nooga: Hm? 20:53:51 nooga: You mean normal monsters? 20:53:55 They only spawn in low light. 20:53:56 elliott, what about dark areas in nether? 20:54:02 They'll walk happily onto high light if they can ofc. 20:54:06 Vorpal: They spawn anywhere in Nether. 20:54:12 elliott, hrrm. 20:54:57 I wish forcing antialiasing worked in OS X for Minecraft. 20:56:16 elliott, it doesn't work /well/ on linux 20:57:34 * elliott makes Minecraft 64-bit 20:58:21 elliott, eh...? 20:58:29 The .app is 32-bit only on OS X. 20:58:31 I fixed that. 20:58:34 ah 20:58:56 elliott, does it get worse or better performance wise? 20:59:18 Same I think. But maybe Java was ignoring -sever because I had -d64 -server. 20:59:19 And it should work now. 20:59:42 elliott, doesn't -server make performance worse iirc? 20:59:50 Vorpal: Slower startup, *much* faster running. 20:59:55 That's why it's called server: for long-running processes. 21:00:01 Vorpal: Maybe it's different for MC but I doubt it. 21:00:05 elliott, on linux too? 21:00:14 what does -server do? pre-optimize? 21:00:26 Vorpal: on Sun JVM, yes 21:00:31 coppro: different runtime entirely 21:00:38 elliott, on openjdk? 21:00:47 Vorpal: only has server I think, but I'm not sure 21:00:59 elliott, ah 21:01:06 do java -help to see the vms :P 21:01:06 -server to select the "server" VM 21:01:06 The default VM is server. 21:01:13 no other vm is listed 21:01:19 Right. 21:01:52 This openjdk: 21:01:54 -server to select the "server" VM 21:01:55 -cacao to select the "cacao" VM 21:01:55 -zero to select the "zero" VM 21:01:55 The default VM is server. 21:01:58 That's a bit weirdy. 21:02:09 Maybe it's some sort of a startup script thing? 21:02:20 fizzie, same for me on ubuntu 21:02:47 I can't believe how tiny the PS3 root key is 21:02:55 fizzie: Cacao is IcedTea I think. 21:03:03 Why does MC break when ran through OpenGL Profiler? Sigh. 21:03:10 elliott, why not call it -icedtea then or such? :D 21:03:20 Vorpal: IcedTea = OpenJDK + Cacao. 21:03:20 I believe. 21:03:26 ah 21:03:31 I wonder what zero is 21:03:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 21:04:09 fizzie, did you see that castle-gate screenshot above btw? 21:04:22 http://c1.complang.tuwien.ac.at/cacaowiki/FrontPage 21:04:26 giyf 21:05:57 I would think http://www.cacaovm.org/ is more like their "front page". 21:06:20 also 21:06:26 obsidian is a horrible construction material 21:06:29 icedtea-6-jre-cacao, "Alternative JVM for OpenJDK, using Cacao"; that is indeed where it comes from. 21:06:39 coppro, in real life or in mc? 21:06:54 real life 21:07:04 although it's fantastic for making blades out of 21:07:04 coppro, well I can imagine that 21:07:08 coppro, indeed 21:07:12 coppro: it's pretty though. 21:07:17 coppro, since when was minecraft realistic? 21:07:28 BOXES is 100% realistic. 21:07:30 In fact 101%. 21:07:31 A well-crafted obsidian blade can have a sharp edge with a thickness of 3 nanometers! 21:07:32 It is more realistic than real. 21:07:34 elliott, obsidian is a kind of volcanic glass! 21:07:36 elliott: indeed 21:07:43 Vorpal: Obsidian should be SEETHROUGH 21:07:51 elliott, it isn't in real life really 21:07:52 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:07:53 lol no 21:07:58 It's glass, duh. 21:08:02 it's black 21:08:05 Interestingly I don't have openjdk-6-jre-zero installed, but it still shows up in -help. (The -zero flag doesn't work, though.) 21:08:09 it's a beautiful stunning black 21:08:16 coppro: A see-through black. 21:08:19 elliott, not as in window glass... 21:08:28 Yes. 21:08:36 elliott, glass as in the lack of crystalline structure 21:08:54 "Zero is a port of OpenJDK that uses no assembler and therefore can trivially be built on any system. The goal of this project is be to be able to build a TCK-compliant OpenJDK of reasonable performance on any platform with no additional porting work. -- [and it also has] an LLVM-based JIT known as Shark." 21:08:57 Vorpal: Nope, actual seethrough. 21:09:14 fizzie: My life is enriched with this information. 21:09:22 fizzie: I shall now devote a life to learning about JVMs. 21:09:25 *my life 21:09:32 It's a sort of a silly name. 21:09:33 fizzie, since you didn't reply to if you saw it or not: http://ompldr.org/vNnR5aA <-- from one of my single player games. It is built in the pass between two hard to climb mountain ranges. 21:10:07 Yes, no: I did not see it. 21:10:39 I still think MC's terrain is horribly limited. 21:11:04 64 metre high mountains? Seas that are never deeper than your average lake? 21:11:04 Phantom_Hoover_, you mean the generated terrain or the fact that it is based on 1 m³ blocks? 21:11:14 ah... 21:11:32 http://p.zem.fi/cacaocraft 21:11:36 * coppro bugs the boxes devteam 21:11:47 LOG: [0x00007f83d5834700] vm_abort: WARNING, port me to C++ and use os::abort() instead. 21:11:50 wtf 21:11:54 wtf indeed 21:12:07 fizzie: Try ZEROCRAFT. 21:12:12 xD @ port me to C++ 21:12:24 the error makes no sense indeed 21:12:31 "Error: no `zero' JVM at `/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/amd64/zero/libjvm.so'"; I'm not sure I want to install it just for that. 21:12:42 great 21:12:43 Psht. 21:13:00 an exploding prick killed me when i was trying to mount door 21:13:08 Phantom_Hoover_, lower terrain below ground level around mountain and you can get up to 128 high mountains 21:13:16 well 127 I guess 21:13:29 nooga, ah, a creeper 21:13:38 127-metre mountain is still a bit on the "lame" side; even Finland has higher hills than that. 21:13:43 Vorpal, 128 metres is still horribly limited. 21:13:48 Phantom_Hoover_, quite 21:14:02 Phantom_Hoover_, but imagine how slow it would be with even more data per chunk? 21:14:43 elliott: Well, zerocraft works but it's slooow. 21:14:51 (But not slooooow, just slooow.) 21:14:54 fizzie, only to be expected 21:14:54 fizzie: NOT SLOW ENOUGH 21:15:00 elliott, how many FPS? 21:15:02 err 21:15:03 fizzie, ^ 21:15:13 fizzie, you can get fps with f3 btw 21:15:17 nooga: Yeah, uh, don't be stupid. Stay away from them. Keep hitting them and retreating if you're daring 21:15:19 *daring. 21:16:58 Rite, I'ma try 'ttaching instead. 21:17:13 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:17:40 Vorpal: Well, ~30fps, but it goes <10 quite often, and at completely 100% CPU usage; nonzerocraft gives me stable-ish 40-60fps with ~40% CPU load. 21:19:01 -!- elliott has joined. 21:19:42 fizzie, your computer is better than mine then. No surprise there. 21:20:52 http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=18446744073709551615+-+18446744073709551611&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=kT0iTfj9GNSJhQfthLW2BQ 21:20:54 GOOGLE MATHEMATICS 21:21:27 Vorpal: Well, it was also a reasonably simplistic indoor scene, and I wasn't moving around a lot. It's not always quite so smoothly animated. 21:22:39 fizzie: You know what Minecraft needs? 21:22:44 A 2D interface, like Dwarf Fortress. 21:22:50 And mcmap, come to think of it. 21:22:52 fizzie, I get 40 FPS while looking at an empty sky. With 60% CPU 21:22:56 fizzie, in single player that is 21:23:01 fizzie, more in multi-player 21:23:21 Vorpal: I get 40-50 fps in multiplayer with far/fancy/better light in a window. 21:23:23 Ha h. 21:23:24 *Ha ha. 21:23:29 elliott, floating point math I presume 21:23:42 elliott, yes my desktop is dated 21:23:50 elliott, the gpu load is probably not high 21:23:58 elliott, how many FPS do you get in glxgears? 21:23:59 Full screen — 32/35 to 40. 21:24:03 Vorpal: Har har :P 21:24:03 There's that 2dcraft, but it's a clone (and some sort of weird .net thing), not a minecraft UI. 21:24:10 elliott, well? 21:24:27 elliott, iirc I get 8000-10000 FPS in glxgears 21:24:27 Vorpal: (1) I doubt that is very easy to obtain on OS X; (2) glxgears is so far from being a benchmark that it's not even funny. 21:24:30 fizzie: But it's not 3D like Dwarf Fortress. 21:24:42 elliott, true it isn't a benchmark. 21:24:47 Wait, I have glxgears. But it's X11-based of course. 21:24:50 So no point running it at all. 21:24:59 3140 frames in 5.0 seconds = 627.893 FPS 21:24:59 3780 frames in 5.0 seconds = 754.286 FPS 21:24:59 ^ Because of X11. 21:25:01 elliott, no opengl acceleration in X on OS X? 21:25:07 glxgears framerate depends quite a lot on window size, too. 21:25:10 Vorpal: Probably, but it's still massive overhead. 21:25:13 fizzie: Indeed; that was with the default size. 21:25:15 fizzie, I assumed standard window size 21:25:19 Vorpal: But it's not even _close_ to a benchmark. 21:25:29 Vorpal: See http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Glxgears_is_not_a_Benchmark. 21:25:33 elliott, indeed it isn't 21:25:35 elliott, and I know that 21:25:36 "So to summarize, glxgears only tests a small part of what you typically see in a 3D game. You could have glxgears FPS performance increase, but your 3D game performance decrease. Likewise, you could have glxgears performance decrease and your 3D game performance increase." 21:25:38 Vorpal: So why ask. 21:25:45 I'm not sure how to get the default window size here, since it's a tiling VM. Maybe if I float it it'll assume the default size. 21:25:51 elliott, as a joke... 21:25:59 Right. Usually they're funny. 21:26:09 44781 frames in 5.0 seconds = 8956.168 FPS 21:26:11 "Yay." 21:26:12 fizzie: Tiling Minecraft -- that must go well for you. (OK, you probably float it or use a desktop.) 21:26:37 elliott: No, I keep it as a half-a-screen sized 960x1200 window, actually. 21:26:51 (Don't ask why.) 21:27:13 elliott, glxgears is still useful to check "do I have software or hardware 3D?" 21:27:22 fizzie: When all you have is a hammer^Wtiling window manager... 21:27:29 Vorpal: see http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Glxgears_is_not_a_Benchmark#Debunking_the_Myth_.28glxgears_is_a_benchmark.29 and following section 21:27:37 Whenever I make a more "landscape" window, the silly thing resizes all the UI elements to take horribly much space. 21:27:44 With the 960x1200 window, they're reasonably small. 21:28:25 You can use it to show that DRI works, but it does not even test that well. There's glxinfo or your Xorg.0.log to tell you if DRI was enabled as well. <-- well it tests that well IME. Maybe not so much with fast modern CPUs though 21:28:37 but 5 years ago it worked perfectly for checking that DRI worked 21:29:59 * elliott watches the Yellow Rose demo. (A prerecording 'cuz I'm a loser.) 21:30:18 elliott, link? 21:30:26 Vorpal: http://ftp.kameli.net/pub/fit/yellow_rose/Yellow_Rose.mov is a fairly-low-quality recording. 21:30:36 Pretty nice for a 4K demo (that it runs on Linux and OS X does NOT BIAS ME AT ALL) 21:30:45 Admittedly there are some super-impressive 4Ks out there. 21:31:15 it fails badly at streaming 21:31:19 WFM. 21:31:26 mplayer is very bad at stremaing if you're trying that. 21:31:27 *streaming 21:31:35 elliott, was trying vlc 21:31:38 http://ftp.kameli.net/pub/fit/yellow_rose/ Here's a bunch of ports. 21:31:38 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:31:46 SGI, Solaris, MorphOS, NetBSD, OS2, PPC Amiga... 21:31:50 PSP, QNX, S60... 21:31:58 what is os4? 21:32:02 ...and Android if you'll believe it. 21:32:06 Vorpal: Amiga OS 4 I believe. 21:32:08 The .lha suggests so. 21:32:11 ah 21:32:19 * elliott reads the source code 21:32:51 elliott, which language is it? 21:32:58 Very impressive, if Finnish-commented (in one file, osa.c). 21:32:58 Vorpal: C. 21:33:09 I find myself wondering where all the actual code is. 21:33:13 elliott, and this compiled to less than 4K on all those? 21:33:25 Vorpal: Well, I imagine that's not "guaranteed". 21:33:29 fi:osa == en:part. 21:33:30 ah 21:33:35 fizzie, hah 21:33:44 Vorpal: For instance the 64-bit Linux binary here is 25K. 21:33:49 ah 21:33:50 Possibly just the Windows binary was 4K, but does it matter? 21:33:55 mhm 21:34:00 Makefile hardcodes gcc-3.3, heh. 21:34:22 fizzie: Well, new gcc versions can be verrry buggy. 21:34:31 * elliott runs it on OS X! 21:34:49 does it use opengl or? 21:35:51 Vorpal: There's a software-3d version. 21:36:29 It seems to have mostly replaced "glFoo" calls with "mlFoo", and then there's a ml.c that implements just those few it does call. 21:36:42 I feel dizzy. 21:37:03 C.f. the glLight "reimplementation": http://p.zem.fi/u7hs 21:37:38 It's not quite as complete a OpenGL 3d renderer as, say, Mesa. 21:37:50 fizzie, doesn't call the hardware opengl then? 21:38:11 The "default" version does. 21:38:19 heh 21:38:26 elliott, why do you feel dizzy? 21:38:30 I guess those ports that don't have it are based on the sw-3d version. 21:38:33 The demo spins a bit. :p 21:38:37 And runs full screen by default. 21:38:47 ah 21:38:56 Incidentally, I didn't even know pouet has OS icons for Solars and SGI/IRIX ports. 21:39:07 fizzie, pouet? 21:39:11 Seven Solaris demos in their repositomatory. 21:39:14 fizzie: *pouët. 21:39:15 :p 21:39:16 http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform[]=Solaris 21:39:17 ah 21:39:31 fizzie: Those fit guys like Solaris. 21:39:57 Yes, four out of the seven are fit/bandwagon products, I see. 21:40:08 Well, one is just fit. 21:40:35 http://www.kameli.net/~marq/pROSEssing/ 21:40:40 Ported to Processing, now with antialiasing. :p 21:41:02 Their port-icon list at http://pouet.net/groups.php?which=409 is also rather more colorful than most. I see some BeOS there. 21:41:05 fizzie, don't they have one for every one in the list? 21:41:25 fizzie: That Chrysler one, impressive :P 21:41:40 Ports I mean 21:41:54 I wonder what the most ported one is 21:41:57 Vorpal: Probably, but I didn't know the Solaris scene was so lively. 21:42:22 fizzie, not very lively really 21:42:28 Huh. 21:42:32 Lively for Solaris. 21:42:33 compared to, say, windows. Or even to linu 21:42:35 linux* 21:42:38 elliott, well fair enough 21:42:43 The *PSP* keys suffer from the same vulnerability. 21:42:53 That's two consoles hacked from one mistake. 21:42:57 pikhq: X-D 21:43:11 pikhq: Wasn't the PHP already homebrew'd up the wazoo? 21:43:14 *PSP 21:43:34 elliott: They discovered ways to downgrade the firmware to vulnerable ones. 21:43:46 Much like the PS3 can be downgraded. 21:44:56 Heh, one of the Solaris prods (Centripetality, a game) is by a friend; I think it's very likely that's because of the Solaris boxes in one of the university's computer classrooms. 21:45:41 fizzie: Stretching the term of demo a bit. 21:45:56 * elliott gives it a go. 21:46:12 It looks fun-ish. 21:46:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:46:54 As long as it's in a compo at some sort of a demoscene-related event, I think it's good enough for pouët. 21:47:30 I didn't like it too much, but that's probably just because I'm not twitchy enough; it needs rather quick flipping between colors there. 21:47:50 Also the controls, like all the commentators say. 21:48:04 My question on the Ubuntu forums is getting lots (none) of expert help! 21:48:59 Looking at the list of controls, I need more hands. 21:50:48 sounds like rather unusual gameplay 21:50:52 fizzie: Oh dear god this would be fun were it not so god damn hard. 21:50:55 Oh, the web scoreboard is still up and all. (Though for the most part the entries are all 3 years ago. Still, there's one in the top-20 that's just one week old.) 21:51:09 It doesn't help that my ctrl key is very inaccessible. 21:51:17 Fuck it, I'll make caps lock ctrl just for this. 21:51:19 elliott, where is ctrl? 21:51:26 elliott: I just kept getting confused about which color my ship was and switching exactly when I shouldn't. 21:51:29 Vorpal: To the /right/ of Fn for some ungodly reason. 21:51:44 elliott, didn't you argue it should be outermost before? 21:51:49 elliott, I seem to remember that 21:51:54 Vorpal: Ctrl? IT SHOULD BE. 21:52:17 elliott, wait, isn't fn always outermost? 21:52:24 elliott, I never seen a laptop where it isn't 21:52:24 No? 21:52:31 ThinkPads and Macs are the only ones where it's outmost. 21:52:35 And it's _stupid_. And irritating. 21:52:39 elliott, let me check my old dell 21:53:07 huh indeed not outermost 21:53:17 elliott, I always found ctrl hard to hit on my old dell 21:53:23 guess I'm just too used to my thinkpad 21:54:18 elliott, I can manage exactly two keyboards well: generic full sized pc keyboard (NOT thin models though!). And my thinkpad 21:54:27 fizzie: This game - HARDEST EVER. 21:54:41 elliott, harder than "I wanna be the guy"? 21:54:52 Vorpal: Yes. 21:54:56 elliott, wow 21:55:04 elliott: Take "more than 28737 points" as your score-goal, then you have beaten the game's developer. 21:55:12 fizzie: I'm getting, like, 5000! WOOOO 21:55:17 (Note: More like 4300.) 21:55:29 doesn't sound too hard to get points then? 21:55:35 IT IS 21:55:45 elliott: Well, with >6921 you have beaten me, according to the web-scoreboard. 21:55:55 Fuck this, I'm playing IWBTG. 21:56:10 http://darwine.sourceforge.net/ ;; very alive 21:56:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 21:56:17 My rank seems to be the honorable 208th. 21:56:19 Ah, brew has wine. 21:56:19 http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=120946&sid=fb4376cb29342af1342de884bbc7f90b 21:56:28 Phantom_Hoover_: I HAVE FOUND WHAT WE SHOULD BASE ASTEROIDS II ON SORT OF 21:56:30 EXCEPT MUCH LESS HARD 21:56:36 AS IN ASTEROIDS II SHOULD BE MUCH LESS HARD 21:56:40 elliott, hmm. 21:56:43 Go on. 21:56:49 Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=%2Fparties%2F2007%2Fassembly07%2Fgame%2Fcentripetality_by_aroppuu_huamn_juhovh.zip&fileinfo 21:56:54 Phantom_Hoover_: Note: Game is possible to play only for Finns. 21:57:16 Phantom_Hoover_: May require three hands. 21:57:48 Fuck this, I'm playing IWBTG. <-- windows only iirc? 21:57:53 Vorpal: Wine. 21:57:58 hm true 21:58:16 I do love the people who say that Notch is doing us a favour by letting us play MC before it's done. 21:58:26 Hello? We PAID for it? 21:58:26 Is that zip the Linux-x86 version or what? 21:59:45 What it isn't is 64-bit, or even runnable on a 64-bit system. 22:00:04 Phantom_Hoover_: Just install lib32-blah 22:00:12 Or compile it. 22:00:16 fizzie: It's a bunch of platforms in one. 22:00:48 Phantom_Hoover_: It has a Solaris/SPARC port, though. Doesn't that count as something? 22:01:02 *count for 22:01:09 why does the readme in http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=%2Fparties%2F2007%2Fassembly07%2Fgame%2Fcentripetality_by_aroppuu_huamn_juhovh.zip&fileinfo render as an image 22:01:13 that is fucking stupid 22:01:41 elliott, I don't have lib32whatever. 22:01:43 That's just something scene.org does. 22:01:45 Even on APT. 22:01:51 fizzie, how utterly silly 22:01:54 Phantom_Hoover_: You have libsomething32bitsomethingsomething 22:02:01 Phantom_Hoover_: I forget the *exact* names. 22:02:08 Vorpal: It's because of charsets. 22:02:10 Vorpal: It's an NFO renderer. 22:02:13 NFO = dos codepage. 22:02:19 elliott, oh I see 22:02:22 So there is no way to portably display them properly without an image. 22:02:24 elliott, I still can't see it. 22:02:25 elliott, how does it know which code page? 22:02:30 It doesn't. 22:02:32 Vorpal: There's only one that anyone used. 22:02:38 i.e. the default font. 22:02:39 elliott, hm 22:02:40 DOS had no real codepages. 22:02:40 That's not exactly true any more. :p 22:02:46 There was just "the IBM PC font". 22:02:50 fizzie: Blah blah :P 22:02:59 The image-rendering manages to break all party results textfiles and everything. 22:03:22 elliott, I remember you often loaded code pages in Sweden to get the chars 22:03:26 elliott, in fact you had to 22:03:28 on DOS 22:03:28 Phantom_Hoover_: ia32-libs for one 22:03:36 elliott, so yes there was more than one code page loaded 22:03:37 Phantom_Hoover_: I forget the name for SDL. 22:03:42 Phantom_Hoover_: Or just Compile It Yourself. 22:04:01 elliott, the source isn't in that zip and I need libcurl. 22:04:12 elliott, so this just assumes the US standard code page? 22:04:30 Phantom_Hoover_: sf.net/project/centripality 22:04:34 modulo typos/whatever 22:04:36 Vorpal: yes. 22:04:37 elliott, ah. 22:04:49 elliott, only US/UK and such used it 22:04:57 elliott, it was never popular in Sweden for example 22:04:58 Vorpal: Nobody cares. 22:05:22 elliott, correction: nobody who used the default code page because it had their letters in it cares. 22:05:32 elliott, 404. 22:05:39 Phantom_Hoover_: MODULO TYPOS/WHATEVER 22:05:46 google " sourceforge" 22:05:47 sheesh 22:05:49 Phantom_Hoover_: http://sourceforge.net/projects/centripetality/ 22:06:00 Here's a link if you need desperately to click on something. 22:06:05 elliott, you fail at spelling :D 22:06:16 Spelling made up words. 22:06:18 What an achievement. 22:06:27 Specially as I never actually looked at the name. 22:06:43 Phantom_Hoover_: I'm not sure the open-source version supports the web-scoreboard, though. And I'm sure you want to get your FAME ON. 22:07:18 elliott, made up words derived trivially from English ones. 22:07:28 Phantom_Hoover_: Wah wah wah. 22:07:32 Phantom_Hoover_, quite 22:07:43 Phantom_Hoover_, I wonder why elliott is acting so childish now 22:07:50 I think Vorpal is just looking for ways to complain at this point. 22:07:59 On a Utnubbu system I don't think it needs anything else than ia32-libs to run. 22:08:01 elliott, incidentally, HHI stuff in Oolite. Comment. 22:08:03 I solemnly swear to NEVER TYPO A GAME NAME EVER AGAIN 22:08:06 elliott, you are pathetic. 22:08:12 Phantom_Hoover_: SORRY can't reply I'm too busy being too childish to reply. 22:08:28 Vorpal: That time of the month again...? 22:08:31 Hey there different-group-of-people-from-yesterday. 22:08:41 Gregor: hi. 22:08:50 elliott, very droll. But I guess you should know, alise. 22:09:06 Help us make an unsolvable game! 22:09:21 Oh wow, you're reaching the height of comedy Vorpal. Soon I'll have to ignore you before laughing so hard I wet my pants. 22:09:23 (Which is nonetheless strategic, fun, and playable by humans) 22:09:39 Gregor: The unsolvable game is asking people to make an unsolvable game which is nonetheless strategic, fun, and playable by humans. 22:09:49 Gregor: You trick people into helping, have fun doing it... 22:09:52 but ultimately, it is impossible. 22:09:53 elliott: ... YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND 22:09:56 WHAT NOW, LOGIC 22:09:59 Joy. Centripetality doesn't compile for me. 22:10:03 elliott, I guess a simple intellect like yours is easily amused. 22:10:10 elliott, (wait this reminds me of monkey island) 22:10:18 But anyway, I put our current thoughts here: http://codu.org/wiki/N-in-a-row%20game 22:10:37 Vorpal: You know, I haven't actually flooded anything with lava lately. If you don't stop being inane I might be less careful with buckets. 22:10:40 Sigh. 22:10:47 Now back to scheming. 22:11:04 elliott, you take it to threats like that? ... 22:11:08 i think i i've found redstone but i don't even have iron yet 22:11:24 nooga, ... 22:11:33 Redstone is found much deeper than iron. 22:11:34 i don't know 22:11:36 nooga, no point in mining it then. Since you won't get anything from it. Find iron first 22:11:50 theres no goddamn iron in this worls 22:11:50 Vorpal: Considering you've basically been irritating me for no discernible reason based on one not-even-typo, and continue to do so, yes, I'll raise it to basically anything I want. 22:11:53 world 22:11:54 Now quit the noise. 22:11:54 nooga, iron might be harder to see than redstone certainly 22:12:06 nooga: You have to set up an actual mine. 22:12:20 nooga, staircase mine at first. 22:12:20 i'm digging tunnels 22:12:26 STAIRCASE 22:12:27 did 3 22:12:28 nooga, how deep are you? 22:12:36 how am i supposed to know 22:12:39 Phantom_Hoover_, what's so great with a staircase mine? 22:12:47 nooga, f3 shows coordinates 22:12:53 i did 3 staircases and found only gravel 22:13:18 nooga, it isn't redstone unless y is less than, 30 or so 22:13:23 nooga: You need to do staircases and then branch off. 22:13:24 -44 22:13:29 nooga, not for 4 22:13:33 err 22:13:35 not for y* 22:13:35 nooga: Main staircase, make corridors in the sides, and then make corridors going off *those*. 22:13:38 damn eyboard 22:13:40 nooga: And that's how you do it. 22:13:41 keyboard* 22:13:54 nooga, x,y,z y is altitude above bottom of map 22:14:01 nooga: i.e., the corridors you actually mine in are the same direction as your stairs. 22:14:08 36 22:14:22 nooga, maybe redstone then. 22:14:43 nooga: It's redstone if it's red. 22:14:50 Brought to you by "Vorpal Makes It Complicated" Industries. 22:15:03 elliott, what is? 22:15:14 Redstone is red. Things that aren't redstone are not red. 22:15:35 elliott, well red flowers... (sorry) 22:16:54 nooga, the advantage of staircase mining is that it's both simple and dense: if you plan correctly, you can ensure that you have examined every block within the range of the mining. 22:17:15 http://i.imgur.com/gDee5.png oh shit 22:17:24 elliott, cool 22:17:39 it's ... wallpaper-sized 22:17:42 ... no i refuse 22:17:53 wo 22:18:03 elliott, wrong dimensions for my screen though :/ 22:18:07 i just found a tunnel with nice stream 22:18:09 Just resize/crop. 22:18:53 Phantom_Hoover_, oh like my high density mines then? That model (which I do not claim to have invented) are good for when you are already near the bottom and want to mine a lot at a given altitude 22:19:42 Vorpal, are your high-density mines just the ones in Mt. Vorpal? 22:19:47 how do you get rid of rubble? 22:20:03 nooga, hm? 22:20:04 Rubble? 22:20:17 Phantom_Hoover_, yes those multi-layer ones that look like a zipper 22:20:41 Phantom_Hoover_: this cobblestone that you collect when mining? 22:20:42 Phantom_Hoover_, it's a form of branch mining 22:21:15 nooga, either a) put it in a chest or b) throw it elsewhere. 22:21:28 Do you have much wood? 22:22:39 yea 22:22:48 Make CHESTS. 22:23:01 for cobblestone? :F 22:23:11 well depends 22:23:17 (I have things set up such that I never need to leave my shelter.) 22:23:18 nooga, you probably want to save some, but not all 22:23:18 -!- Sasha has joined. 22:23:32 Phantom_Hoover_, well if you are that style of player :D 22:23:34 Except for sand. 22:23:53 Phantom_Hoover_, you have chests full of iron then? 22:23:56 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 22:24:17 -!- Sasha2_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:24:34 nooga: Cooblestones are useful for pickaxes. 22:24:38 You won't _always_ have iron. 22:24:45 I do! 22:24:50 elliott, quite 22:24:54 Phantom_Hoover_: You're straying into very Vorpally territory. 22:24:56 not at the start anyway 22:25:11 elliott, what is wrong with having a lot in chests? 22:25:13 buy 900 cobblestone is useless 22:25:22 I mean arranging things so you never have to leave. 22:25:33 nooga: As long as you mine at least three cobbles with each stone pickaxe you're good :P 22:25:38 elliott, well. That follows as a result of having huge stores in chests 22:26:00 elliott, actually you never /have/ to leave once you have a small shelter and one torch 22:26:08 Pointlesscraft 22:26:16 elliott, quite 22:26:28 elliott, I leave even though I don't have to. Because it would be boring otherwise 22:26:30 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:26:52 Vorpal: In fact, can't you just have a two high wall four around you (8 blocks), plus one block above? You'd need to place 10 blocks (one extra to get the top block in, but the final result would just be 9 blocks). 22:27:02 Nothing can get into that, nothing can spawn in it, and you need nothing else forever. 22:27:13 900 cobblestone is not especially much for some sort of a megastructure. 22:27:18 I conclude that to win Minecraft, one has to mine 10 blocks, and you then complete the game with one block. 22:27:30 Well... actually, removing the block you need to place the top would be difficult. 22:27:34 elliott, every time I started a single player game I ended up on a beech. I don't get it. Isn't the starting position random at all? 22:27:38 So basically to win Minecraft takes 10 blocks of any description. Well, apart from sand. 22:27:45 Vorpal: I end up on a beach quite often but I don't think always. 22:27:55 elliott, true that would work 22:28:21 fizzie, 900 is hardly enough for any sort of mega structure 22:28:28 but too much for everything else 22:29:15 elliott, you need 9 blocks. You can remove the one used to place and then reuse it for another yet unbuilt wall 22:29:25 assuming it is something that can be removed 22:29:28 (not glass or such) 22:29:48 Vorpal: Oh, indeed. 22:29:57 Takes 10 blocks and you finish with one. 22:29:59 BRB, winning Minecraft. 22:30:12 elliott, you could manage with two blocks if you find a straight cliff side. mine two. walk into the hole. Place the two just outside the hole 22:30:16 -!- BMG has joined. 22:30:24 Vorpal: Oh INDEED. 22:30:25 does lava mean that there are precios minerals near? 22:30:26 Vorpal: I will do that now. 22:30:37 nooga: It means you're near the bottom of the lava, where most minerals are. 22:30:38 like, is it wise to start a mine near lava lake? 22:30:41 elliott, or 3 blocks if you dig down into the ground and place one back above you 22:30:49 elliott: the lava is on surface 22:30:53 nooga: Oh. 22:30:55 nooga: That indicates nothing. 22:30:59 nooga: (Good luck to find one of them though.) 22:31:00 elliott, there are lava lakes at many altitudes nowdays 22:31:05 nooga: Build a base on top for the lulz. 22:31:08 elliott, even just a few blocks below 22:31:14 i don't have glass :D 22:31:17 Vorpal: Shush, I'm about to win Minecraft with two blocks. 22:31:20 nooga: just get sand 22:31:24 elliott, I noticed lava lakes on the surface are WAY more common in SMP than in single player 22:31:29 Spawned on a beach X-D 22:31:30 elliott, based on a local testing server 22:31:35 elliott, HAH! 22:31:43 I blame Notch 22:32:16 Pumpkinz! 22:32:21 elliott, NO NEED! 22:32:28 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 22:32:28 -!- BMG has joined. 22:32:28 elliott, two blocks remember 22:32:30 Vorpal: I WIN 22:32:32 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 22:32:36 hart staircases do you build? 22:32:36 elliott, oh? 22:32:38 3x3? 22:32:47 nooga, hart? 22:32:52 nooga: I did 3x3 shafts and then do the middle as staircases. 22:33:00 Vorpal: Took two dirt from a hill, stepped inside, placed them on the floor outside. 22:33:01 I win. 22:33:04 Now to actually play. 22:33:08 elliott, indeed 22:33:09 elliott, you win 22:33:22 SNOW BIOME OMG <3 22:33:37 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:33:39 elliott, yes I spawned in that once. On a beech in one. 22:33:42 go figure 22:33:46 BEACH 22:33:49 elliott, yeah whatever 22:33:53 B 22:33:53 E 22:33:53 A 22:33:55 C 22:33:57 H 22:33:59 Vorpal: English spelling fail 22:34:21 note to self: always say "beech" to elliott instead. And call the tree "beach". Just to annoy him 22:34:36 and that I will do. 22:34:58 ENGLISH IS NOT THAT HARD. :P 22:35:43 Holy shit SSP is slow. 22:35:58 elliott, bug since beta yes 22:36:02 Move over, Crysis. 22:36:05 elliott, try those mods. they help somewhat 22:36:15 No, I like Better Light. 22:36:41 elliott, try the save one? I haven't tried that one yet 22:36:59 I might but I rarely play SSP. 22:37:39 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 22:37:41 elliott, whyever not? 22:38:18 WATERFALL OMG WATERFALL LOVE 22:38:21 Vorpal: Less fun. 22:38:37 People farm cobblestone? 22:38:51 elliott, scared of the monsters? 22:38:57 -!- Deewiant has joined. 22:39:03 Sgeo, not farm really no 22:39:08 Sgeo, factory sure 22:39:10 I play peaceful because I'm a wimp. 22:39:17 elliott ++ 22:39:30 elliott, also hypocrite 22:39:34 (wrt nooga) 22:39:44 I don't recommend that other people become wimps. 22:45:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:45:22 uh i died but i've managet to get back 22:45:28 nooga, ah 22:45:36 zombie spawned in a cavern 22:45:37 whee 22:45:40 this is the best idea ever 22:45:45 invert my screen every 0.5 seconds 22:45:45 nooga, need more lights then 22:45:52 coppro, .... why? 22:47:04 coppro: 0.1 22:47:23 elliott, make sure to warn any epileptic person then! 22:47:23 -!- Munekhtew has joined. 22:47:32 no enjoy the pain 22:47:40 Munekhtew is a monkey cthulhu 22:48:00 nops 22:48:37 I just watch 22:49:10 -!- Munekhtew has left (?). 22:50:43 wat 22:52:00 Gregor: what about infinite D tic tac toe, oklopol played that with me 22:52:02 21:55 Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=120946&sid=fb4376cb29342af1342de884bbc7f90b 22:52:05 this is whiny 22:52:40 Gregor: basically you had to get 4 in a row in any dimension i think... coordinates were lists of naturals (or integers, I forget) 22:52:57 Gregor: it may have been more complex than that. I remember it had its own mini-language to describe infinite coordinate lists :) 22:53:06 Gregor: The nice thing there is that the coordinates are isomorphic to reals. 22:53:58 One of the requirements is that it be fun and playable with pencil-and-paper. In other words, you're not doing constant insane math, and real numbers are pretty much right out. :P 22:54:16 Gregor: you don't even think about the reals 22:54:21 Gregor: it's just infinite coordinate lists 22:54:34 Gregor: btw i played it with oklopol with a bot and it /was/ fun, so fuck your pencil-and-paper requirement 22:54:40 Gregor: hell, playing chess with pencil-and-paper is a bitch 22:54:45 Gregor: so what is the point of that requirement? 22:54:52 elliott, wtf: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_circuits#The_North.2FSouth_Quirk 22:55:04 Vorpal: lol 22:55:09 elliott, VERY USEFUL but /might/ be fixed 22:55:46 OK, I guess pencil-and-paper /per se/ wasn't what I was looking for, just playable with minimal setup "in real life" (that is, no computer required) 22:55:52 yeah 22:55:54 18 iron 22:55:58 Pencil-and-paper is just nice because it's near-zero setup. 22:56:21 Gregor: You can do this with pencil and paper quite easily, just note down the filled columns. It's not a /graphical/ representation, but "meh". 22:56:32 nooga: Smelt it in a furnace (1 coal = 8 ores turned into N ingots). 22:56:40 mhm 22:56:43 doing that 22:57:05 Gregor: An interface would be quite fun, since you can "hack" it into a finite display by saying that (X 0 0 0 0 ...) is X, and all the rest of X is "inside" X. 22:57:11 but then what to do with the iron? armor? wapon? iron picks aren't too durable 22:57:13 And then (X Y 0 0 0 0 ...) is Y for all Y, etc. 22:57:26 Gregor: So you can basically move around the board, and go inside one level, and that lets you navigate. 22:57:35 Gregor: Of course infinite placement requires /some/ kind of expressive moves, but eh :P 22:57:47 nooga: They aren't, but you need them to mine quite a bit of stuff. 22:57:53 nooga: Armour and sword are always good picks. 22:58:01 nooga: Smelt it in a furnace (1 coal = 8 ores turned into N ingots). <-- where N = 8 22:58:21 nooga: So basically you have 90 iron ingots. 22:58:31 nooga: You can make all the armour with that I believe. 22:58:40 And probably a few tools too. 22:58:44 Sword and pickaxe I'd go for. 22:58:52 Of course you might want to keep a lot of it for later :P 22:59:10 nooga, sword and pickaxe, then armor. And don't throw away any iron like you did with the cobble 23:00:20 Vorpal: Armour is most important. 23:00:35 Make a full set of iron armour, two swords, and the rest into pickaxes (with a few swords if you have enough). 23:00:41 hm 23:00:48 elliott, okay then. 23:00:52 I mean, stone tools aren't actually all that bad and they're super-renewable. 23:00:58 But, uh, stone armour :-P 23:01:08 elliott, you mean leather armor 23:01:10 armour* 23:01:10 I doubt he has any armour now, so getting it would be a high priority. 23:01:20 Vorpal: Yeaaah not only is that a pain to get the leather for but it's beyond useless :P 23:01:35 elliott, fair enough 23:01:47 Vorpal: Got any chainmail in your game? 23:01:51 It's made out of PURE FIRE http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Chainmail 23:01:57 elliott, no, that would be cheating :P 23:02:00 PURE 23:02:01 FIRE 23:02:29 nooga: Anyway, iron armour is pretty much the most practical armour considering that diamond is incredibly scarce, gold is a joke, and leather is... leather. 23:02:29 "Chainmail armor has the same durability as Gold armor. " 23:02:35 in other words. Pretty useless 23:02:38 Vorpal: Just get MORE FIRE 23:03:28 Does diamond stuff ever break 23:03:29 ? 23:03:40 Sgeo, yes. But it takes ages 23:03:57 Does HHI have diamond supplies? 23:04:07 Diamond is utterly free on the server :P 23:04:17 elliott, only for the 3 basic tools 23:04:19 There's a large chest (ok, currently inaccessible) of it at spawn, and there's a kit to get diamond tools. 23:04:23 Vorpal: Sword too. 23:04:25 Oh, wait, no. 23:04:26 Well, whatever. 23:04:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:04:29 elliott, not sword indeed 23:04:32 The chest will probably be fixed sometime. 23:04:34 So it hardly matters. 23:04:36 elliott, quite 23:04:40 A "kit" to get diamond tools? 23:04:52 Sgeo, yes for pickaxe/axe/spade 23:05:25 How does a chest become accidentally inaccssible? 23:05:28 elliott, btw the tools in the "stacks" are used one at a time I found. So if you have a stack of 3-4 you can forget to renew for some time 23:05:32 It's under spawn protection. 23:05:35 Server-side inventory stole it from us. 23:05:38 Sgeo, by being in spawn protection area 23:05:50 Sgeo: Also we have a kit that fills your entire inventory with glass. Including armour slots. 23:05:54 You actually see the glass cube on your head. 23:05:55 It's great. 23:06:09 elliott, you should have glass elsewhere on your body IMO 23:06:32 Vorpal: I like how you can get cactusheads and portalheads. 23:06:38 I would pay good money for a portalhead. 23:06:45 elliott, portalheads? LINK! 23:06:51 I've been thinking about some kind of assembly language with macros, types and abstraction, but everything still rooted in actual assembly... you could see it as the ultimate assembly-generation DSL 23:06:59 Vorpal: There were no pictures but it was in a thread of people trying various headgears. 23:07:04 Vorpal: Apparently the portal actually animates. 23:07:12 elliott, cool 23:07:17 olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Level_Assembly Congrats, you're a crazy person. 23:07:18 try it on a local server 23:07:19 olsner, AKA HLA? 23:07:50 I've been thinking about some kind of assembly language with macros, types and abstraction, but everything still rooted in actual assembly... you could see it as the ultimate assembly-generation DSL <-- dependant types!? 23:07:51 olsner: Just write enough of Lisp to have an x86 assembler and macros, and you can built types, structures etc. on top of that. But, oops! Haha, you just invented Lisp. 23:07:51 Adamantium needs to exist 23:08:01 olsner: So why would you want to use assembly. 23:08:12 Sgeo: It does, it's called bedrock. 23:08:43 AKA adminium. 23:09:00 AKA bedrock because adminium is a horrible name. 23:09:01 elliott, I /gave myself some on my local test server then built a room out of it and added a warp point inside. Great fun. 23:09:22 Vorpal: Yes, er, great fun. 23:09:57 elliott: hmm, maybe it would end up as crazy as HLA by necessity, was hoping for awesome rather than crazy though :P 23:10:15 elliott, yes because you could never break it with TNT. Not even with with >500 TNT (which could break obsidian) 23:10:28 Phantom_Hoover_: http://imgur.com/a/hGmQ1/1#ZCUK4 100-block diameter dome of jaw-dropping awesomeness. 23:10:32 Vorpal: dependent types, yes, probably... 23:10:39 FWIW, I think it is actually possible to penetrate bedrock or obsidian ceilings. 23:10:39 olsner: You know what dependent types are, right? 23:11:09 olsner: And, well, as I said, the simplest and most awesome way to do this is Lisp ... but when you have Lisp, why would you want assembly> 23:11:12 *assembly? 23:11:52 olsner: You just need a bunch of assembler primitives and the basic Lisp toolset -- then you can build labels, "combined" instructions (i.e. "mov" out of all the different kinds of mov), proper addressing (just have the offsets etc. built in to the primitives -- basically make it a direct match for machine code). 23:12:01 olsner: Then you can build macros, types, etc. on top of that with Lisp macros. 23:12:05 What's the tooltip for bedrock? "Bedrock"? 23:12:30 fizzie: "What how do you have this stop it" 23:12:31 well, the idea was that it should allow enough abstraction to be able to have a language like haskell defined as a combination of type system and "macro" features that you can write haskell-syntax programs and your macros do code-generation to assembly code like a haskell compiler would :) 23:13:05 and also a level more like C, where you mostly have register allocation and function calls handled for you 23:13:05 olsner: so basically you substitute fragile macros for a real language :> 23:13:42 Welp, be back in 20-30-40 minutes. 23:13:44 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:15:56 fizzie: "What how do you have this stop it" <-- really? *goes to check* 23:16:07 No, it's just bedrock. 23:16:16 fizzie, ah 23:16:24 At least I think so. 23:16:59 tile.bedrock.name=Bedrock 23:17:15 I it's "Bedrock" yes 23:17:18 (lang/en_US.lang in minecraft.jar.) 23:17:30 fizzie, it has langauges? 23:17:31 huh 23:17:42 fizzie, what locales does it have? 23:17:49 That's the only file in there. 23:18:00 But it seems like an attempt for localization. 23:18:16 It contains what seems to be the most of the text in the UI. 23:19:10 Incidentally, the "internal names" for Netherrack, Soul Sand and Glowstone (i.e. netherstuff, slowsand/mud and lightstone) are "hellrock", "hellsand" and "lightgem". 23:21:55 Github's thing where if you write "closes #n" or "fixes #n" in a commit message, it actually goes and closes issue #n, puts a link to the issue-post into the commit view, and adds the commit message as a comment in the issue (except with "closes/fixes #n" → "closed/fixed by [commit id]") is a nice (if quirky) thing. 23:28:23 Invent a TeX format for code golf. 23:29:04 "Yeah, only MP, SP fences are just fine. 23:29:04 " 23:29:19 Well, that's nice, random bugs seemingly unrelated to the mode are mode dependent 23:29:20 I used to think there was no command in TeX for calculating overfullness of boxes, but actually there is. 23:29:30 It still baffles me why you wouldn't just make SP a special case of MP. 23:29:34 It's so *obvious*. 23:31:04 Phantom_Hoover_: What is SP, does it stand for "Special" or "Special Point" or something like that? 23:31:12 I'd probably completely fail to realize that people would want SP 23:31:15 zzo38, single player 23:31:16 zzo38, single-player. 23:31:21 OK 23:31:23 Where "MP" is multi-player. 23:31:45 Well then, you should have a single-player mode, multi-player, and multi-player with one player. 23:33:55 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:34:24 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:35:38 zzo38, where the last of those is exactly equivalent to single-player. 23:35:48 fizzie, there? 23:36:01 fizzie, I still get that high altitude bug. Updated one hour ago 23:36:13 If that is how it works, then you don't need single-player mode, except for it to possibly mean turn off network access. 23:36:58 Hmmn. 23:37:33 fizzie, f3 reports 114 23:37:40 and placing on ground next to me 23:37:55 fizzie, now it only bugs in top view 23:37:56 Well, let's see. 23:38:01 fizzie, not in normal view 23:38:17 oh wait, normal too, but less obvious 23:39:15 fizzie, does not happen at 113, but happens at 115 23:39:39 -!- elliott has joined. 23:40:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:36 Yes, it seems to do something strange. 23:42:03 fizzie: I made an isue 'cuz i'm cool 23:42:04 *issue 23:42:12 ah you fixed it 23:42:12 maybe 23:42:21 fizzie: i would prefer it if nomap didn't use sdl 23:42:29 avoid loading it etc 23:42:34 well i guess it might already be loaded 23:42:45 It's linked-to, anyway. 23:42:52 right 23:43:14 Like the comment says, a no-SDL nomap would be nicer; but I don't think it makes much practical difference there. 23:43:21 fizzie: Would you think it rude if I rewrote the wholet hing in ML? :D 23:44:23 elliott: continuing from before, what I have in mind is not really "macros" in the typical code-that-makes-code macros... rather something like type classes, let's say it'd let you define a category of "boxed values" and describe that they are thunks that get forced when looked at 23:44:33 olsner: weird 23:44:52 olsner, cool 23:45:31 'tronic uses higher resolution textures than the standard minecraft ones so you need to run the HD Texture Fix or your bricks and hellstone will look all fucked up." 23:45:36 What a weird thing to break. 23:45:38 *"tronic 23:46:22 elliott, fun fact: minecraft uses a signed value for durability. And counts up. Not down. With an inventory editor you could make a twice as durable diamond tool for example :D 23:46:35 Vorpal: Indeed. That has been done. 23:46:43 Vorpal: With negative values. 23:46:50 Vorpal: Also Minecraft uses signed EVERYTHING; Java has no unsigned. 23:46:54 elliott, exactly 23:47:19 elliott, wait, what about reading binary data with unsigned values? 23:47:38 You add a lot of &0xff's in. 23:47:51 * elliott decides to try Tronic again. 23:48:16 I love how Java perfectly strides the line between low-level drudge work and high-level limitedness, achieving neither. 23:48:23 Truly the most useless of languages. 23:49:24 fizzie: You never answered my ML question! How rude! 23:49:27 elliott, btw about that stupid "for older computer" texture pack. I just realised that with texture compression involved it /might/ actually save some video ram. Very very doubtful it would make a difference though 23:49:43 Vorpal: But DUDE, it has to PUT LESS PIXELS 23:49:57 lol >>> operator 23:50:07 coppro, what does it do? 23:50:15 Vorpal: Zero-extend bitshift, IIRC. 23:50:18 elliott, well not that. But it might, /just might/, have to shuffle less data to/from video ram 23:50:22 fizzie, in which language 23:50:23 The default >> sign-extends. 23:50:25 Java. 23:50:29 ah 23:50:59 (as for why assembly is involved in my idea - it's mostly because I've been writing assembly lately and realized it involves a lot of boring drudge work :) ) 23:51:21 Ok, who let Notch play with the Minecraft Wiki? 23:51:30 elliott: Oh, I must've erased that comment. It was something along the lines of "no, as long as you don't push the ML rewrite as the master branch of mcmap". Of course you're free to reimplement it in any language you like. 23:51:32 Sgeo: What. 23:51:33 (so I want something that'll both allow register fiddling and custom calling conventions (where relevant or interesting), as well as higher-level programming where you don't really care, while never leaving the same language... was thinking about making an actual haskell dsl to generate my kernel assembly, and then thought some more along those lines :P) 23:51:38 The wiki is dow 23:51:40 down 23:51:54 fizzie: Can I push it to the totally-better-and-more-awesome-fizzie-sucks branch? 23:52:03 Sgeo, not rare 23:52:34 olsner: I wanted to do a Scheme OS a while back, and someone lisppasted an awesome x86 assembler written in a few hundred lines of Scheme. 23:52:35 Well, sure, I don't see anything rude about that. 23:53:09 olsner: The most AWSUM(tm) way to do a kernel in Scheme would be to write the code with an in-Scheme assembler, building up useful macros to relieve the drudge work, so that you have macros that implement a sizeable subset of a Scheme compiler. 23:53:31 olsner: Then you write a Scheme JIT compiler in this Scheme-based-assembler-with-macro-based-compiler-of-a-lot-of-Scheme. 23:53:40 olsner: Voila! You can now do the rest in Scheme, with inline Scheme-assembler. 23:53:48 olsner: What I'm saying is, live my dreams for me so I don't have to do the work. 23:53:51 elliott, isn't that the way @ works? 23:53:53 elliott, spawn on multiplayer test server is not at 0,0 btw. And it is on a beach. 23:54:04 elliott, it has not been moved 23:54:21 elliott, however it is closer to 0,0 than on ineiros's server 23:54:23 Vorpal: heh. very well then, but obviously someone travelled to (0,0), moved about three chunks, and then left 23:54:24 not possible for walking 23:54:38 Phantom_Hoover_: Close, close ... I'm too hardcore to depend on anything but an assembler, so the implementation of the @-language is done in pure, raw assembly. 23:54:55 elliott, this is why it will never be made. 23:54:56 Phantom_Hoover_: The way I figure it is: if I wanted to use a better language I would use @-lang. 23:54:56 elliott, spawn coords: -19 -34 23:55:16 now 23:55:21 this is what i call mining 23:55:32 i've found an ultimate cavern 23:55:57 wrong 23:56:03 there exists a chance of a better one 23:56:05 so it isn't ultimate 23:56:37 Your MOM is the ultimate cavern lol 23:56:51 elliott: that's what she said 23:57:00 I'm slightly upset that all MC worlds are larger than the largest AW world 23:57:02 coppro: osnap—that's what your face said to her when she said it 23:57:14 I'm slightly upset that all MC worlds are larger than the largest AW world 23:57:16 Sgeo: Also, all MC worlds are more fun than the funnest possible AW world (which is no fun at all). 23:57:20 lol what 23:57:25 ANOTHER SLIGHT 23:57:33 aha! 23:57:35 coppro: lol what to what 23:57:35 iron 23:57:40 LOADS OF GODDAMN IRON 23:57:43 nooga: don't you have enough 23:57:48 elliott: your awful awful comeback 23:57:50 also 23:57:55 world needs more rockraiders remakes 23:57:57 coppro: almost as awful as your mom 23:57:59 AlphaWorld is (32750 * 2)^2 square meters 23:58:02 elliott: I don't think scheme is quite up to the task of fulfilling my vision :) 23:58:09 coppro: except that's not actually possible 23:58:30 is there a better fuel for furnance than coal? 23:58:31 olsner: You can't do my dream-but-one (not quite my dream) with Haskell 'cuz Template Haskell sucks bawlz. 23:58:34 nooga: yes 23:58:42 I remember seeing something about it being roughly the size of California 23:58:48 nooga: but, coal + multiple furnaces is fast and economical 23:58:58 nooga: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Furnace#Fuel_efficiency 23:59:01 nooga: lava bucket is the most hardc0re 23:59:07 Heh... One blog is almost down... Presumably because highly popular podcast is about to be released today... 23:59:09 "*Note that using a Lava Bucket will not only use the lava, but destroy the bucket as well." 23:59:15 nooga: you can use stairs and jukeboxes and fences for no apparent reason 23:59:55 elliott: no, obviously I'd have to write my own compiler or compile-time interpreter or whatever it ends up being 2011-01-04: 00:00:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:01:28 Phantom_Hoover_: GET ON MC 00:02:19 elliott, if you haven't blown up Mt. Vorpal by "accident" I will be sorely disappointed. 00:02:39 " (Note: You cannot farm cheap obsidian here, as the water evaporates!) " 00:06:34 Phantom_Hoover_: I have. 00:08:35 Phantom_Hoover_: I am ready to blow things up. 00:08:43 Phantom_Hoover_: Can we make a 10x10x10 cube of TNT? 00:08:54 NO. 00:08:59 Phantom_Hoover_: 3x3x3? 00:09:14 2x2x2 is already an insanely huge explosion. 00:09:21 Phantom_Hoover_: 3x2x2? 00:09:44 2x2x2. Full stop. 00:15:31 hmhm 00:24:03 elliott: hey 00:24:55 augur: hi 00:27:58 tell me of your favorite type system 00:29:59 hmm 00:30:03 augur: um 00:30:06 augur: depends! 00:30:09 x3 00:30:11 this cave is too big to light 00:30:11 augur: system I\Xi is pretty nice 00:30:14 nooga: no it isn't 00:30:16 nooga: get more torches 00:30:18 tell me about it 00:30:23 but there are monsters 00:30:31 elliott, people do mine obsidian: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=78446 00:33:21 is it possible to make a lava column? 00:41:06 nooga, yes. 00:42:27 elliott, wasn't your scree x9nn? 00:42:43 Vorpal: what. 00:42:52 elliott, screen res 00:42:55 elliott, on your macbook air 00:42:56 tell me 00:43:01 Vorpal: 1440x900 00:43:07 elliott, that small? 00:43:25 elliott, "ha ha my computer is better than yours" 00:43:29 to quote you 00:43:43 nope mine is better 00:43:44 sry 00:44:04 elliott, 1680x1050 > 1440x900 00:44:12 elliott, thus in that aspect mine is better 00:44:20 mine is better in every way 00:44:29 Well fuck. 00:44:32 elliott, except that 00:44:38 pikhq: ? 00:44:39 elliott, also fewer usb ports 00:44:47 Vorpal: the usb ports are better though 00:44:47 elliott, mine has... 8 usb ports 00:44:51 Some Senators are stating that they will allow the US to default on its debts. 00:44:52 also the fewer pixels are more zen 00:44:53 q.e.d 00:44:59 pikhq: luzl 00:45:04 elliott, how are your usb ports better? usb 3.0? 00:45:35 We do not know what will happen if that happens, except that it will be *fucking terrible*. 00:45:43 Vorpal: they're more usb 00:45:48 Vorpal: but yes this has usb 3 00:45:54 elliott, also you don't have hardware midi! 00:46:02 elliott, or built in gbit ethernet 00:46:10 Vorpal: nope, it's because steve jobs wrote the software midi himself and it sounds like angels peeing on your face 00:46:19 the ethernet is 20gb duh that's why it has to be housed in a separate container 00:46:22 elliott, or 1 TB non-volatile storage space 00:46:23 Oh, and the dollar would probably instantly go into hyperinflation. 00:46:25 because otherwise it would be breaking speed regulations 00:46:31 Vorpal: I have more, I have petabytes 00:46:35 Vorpal: they call it "the internet" 00:46:38 elliott, har har 00:46:43 it even has a wireless connection to it 00:46:45 BUILT IN 00:46:50 ] 00:46:56 elliott, 11n? 00:47:01 Vorpal: yes actually. 00:47:02 elliott, so does my thinkpad 00:47:05 elliott, it has 11n 00:47:07 Vorpal: Does it have USB 3.0? 00:47:19 elliott, no but it has more usb ports than you 00:47:24 But they're worse. 00:47:30 elliott, anyway aren't usb 3.0 ports taller? 00:47:32 than usb 2 00:47:36 Vorpal: Er. No. 00:47:40 elliott, err yes 00:47:46 elliott, or is that usb 4? 00:47:48 Allow me to repeat: Err, no. 00:47:58 Oh, it's actually USB 2.0. 00:48:06 Vorpal: My USB ports are better because they're more USB porty than your USB ports. 00:48:12 Quod erat demonstrandum, motherfucker. 00:48:19 DO YOU CONCEDE 00:48:56 elliott, how are they more usb porty? 00:49:06 Vorpal: Because they're more USB. 00:49:08 elliott, and no I do not concede 00:49:12 elliott, because I call that a lie 00:49:22 Vorpal: You are wrong and your entire family is made out of meat. 00:49:39 elliott, so is your 00:49:57 Vorpal: No, I'm a computer. 00:49:58 Also, *yours. 00:50:12 Also: I FUCKING WISH MINECRAFTFORUM WOULD REMOVE THAT IRRITATING NOTCH SMILEY. 00:50:15 ALL THE IDIOTS USE IT 00:50:27 elliott, solution: adblock it 00:50:36 Too much work. 00:50:41 elliott, two clicks? 00:50:43 Idiots are the problem. :p 00:50:48 Vorpal: (1) Install AdBlock 00:50:59 elliott, 1) already done... over two years ago 00:51:05 Vorpal: For you, not me. 00:51:16 elliott, how can you live with the ads? 00:51:29 Vorpal: I don't browse sites that show me irritating ads. 00:51:33 Vorpal: Bonus: I don't browse shitty sites. 00:51:38 Or at least I browse less of them. 00:51:44 elliott, same but google ads = irritating to me 00:51:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:51:53 Vorpal: Then you're just whiny. 00:52:05 elliott, they were okay when they only allowed text 00:52:11 I find AdBlock a need. 00:52:17 elliott, but now I'm pretty sure I seen graphics in one 00:52:20 Essentially all ads are fucking annoying. 00:52:24 pikhq, indeed 00:52:31 Google's text ads being the only exception. 00:52:44 pikhq, they have non-text ads nowdays iirc? 00:52:51 Let's put it this way: reddit has exactly two ad spots: the one at the top, which is commercially-posted links, almost all of which have comments and are often interesting; and the square ad on the right sidebar, which is _never_ irritating, never animated, and always subdued, and the admins keep it that way. 00:52:51 it sadens me 00:52:58 Irritating ads get reported and removed extremely swiftly. 00:53:06 Static images aren't too bad; a minor irritant. 00:53:11 Plus, often subreddits etc. are advertised in the right bar and it can be interesting. 00:53:16 I see _no point_ in blocking those whatsoever. 00:53:20 pikhq, oh yes I have gif animations set to "don't repeat" 00:53:29 Animated images vary from "somewhat irritating" to "OH HOLY FUCK I MUST KILL SOMEONE". 00:53:36 Plus there's a good chance of them showing you a kitten instead of ads. 00:53:37 Seriously. 00:53:46 And Flash ads make me want to line up all advertisers before a firing squad. 00:53:53 They put random pictures there not linked to anything on like 1/5th of all page loads. 00:53:56 pikhq, I don't have flash of course 00:53:59 After that noise I just installed AdBlock and called it a day. 00:54:10 pikhq, quite! 00:54:12 Vorpal lives in a world where not having Flash is "of course". 00:54:20 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:54:21 Anyway, any website with Flash ads isn't worth the time of day. 00:54:25 elliott, hey *you* don't have flash you said 00:54:28 Oh, and ones that appear *over* the page also make me want to wipe out humanity. 00:54:28 So I just don't browse such websites for more than 10 seconds at a time. 00:54:36 pikhq, they made that? 00:54:37 Vorpal: Sure, but it's hardly "of course". 00:54:43 Vorpal: They've "made that" since the 90s ... 00:54:47 Livejournal has them now. 00:54:47 elliott, no, accept it. 00:54:48 Vorpal: Yes. 00:54:51 _Those_ I would block. 00:54:53 Vorpal: What? 00:55:04 elliott, it /is/ of course. Welcome to the club. Accept your fate. 00:55:17 Also, video ads before a video are pretty annoying. 00:55:27 Especially when it's the same fucking ad for every video on a site. 00:55:31 pikhq, don't tell me youtube have them or something? 00:55:37 Vorpal: Nope, the next time I want to play a Flash game or watch a weebl's stuff cartoon I'll happily install it. 00:55:39 Vorpal: Youtube does. 00:55:43 holy shit 00:55:51 pikhq, it has ads before the video? 00:55:55 this cave is never ending system of dark pits and halls 00:55:56 pikhq, long live youtube-dk 00:55:57 Sometimes. 00:55:58 dl* 00:55:58 then 00:56:07 pikhq, youtube-dl for the win! 00:56:17 (mostly corporate-posted videos.) 00:56:20 nooga, congrats on finding a large cavern system 00:56:30 "Because making a worse product is a good idea." 00:56:38 nooga, it happens a few times in every game. Rarely does it naturally go down to lava lake level 00:56:43 but those are awesome 00:56:52 I had one game with two such. Near each other. 00:57:38 Someone said they would make up a new kind of poker game and make manga of it, and then I will be the non-Japanese people to play this game. 00:58:09 err! night! 00:58:15 Vorpal: youtube-dl is bullshit, just use a youtube->html5 thing. 00:58:19 359345743957395 of them exist 00:58:55 elliott, why is it bull shit. It rocks if your connection can't handle highest definition available 00:59:18 elliott, also I thought youtube had html5 naively nowdays? 00:59:28 Vorpal: Natively only on videos without ads and it's slow as fuck. 00:59:35 ah 00:59:48 Also, having to wait ages to watch a stupid YouTube video defeats the entire point. 01:00:50 I don't use YouTube. It is full of wrong thing........ 01:01:00 elliott: youtube-dl is actually a god-send for some videos. 01:01:07 elliott, you can watch while it downloads. Something like youtube-dl foo & sleep 10 && mplayer foo.flv works file 01:01:12 fine* 01:01:18 Vorpal: I just use YouTube5 and it works perfectly. 01:01:31 elliott, I'm happy for you. But don't call youtube-dl shit 01:01:37 elliott, if you don't like it, so be it 01:01:39 Vorpal: Or mplayer `youtube-dl -g` 01:01:58 pikhq: mplayer is retarded, it never buffers enough. 01:02:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpEu5AZnTGM 01:02:05 pikhq, that works too if it doesn't fuck up buffering as elliott said 01:02:06 zzo38: Wrong thing is an ellipsis made out of 8 dots. 01:02:10 elliott: -cache set-the-buffer-in-kilobytes 01:02:10 zzo38: It's three, man, it's three. 01:02:21 pikhq: It seems to buffer, use the entire buffer, get some more, etc. 01:02:22 It is stupid. 01:02:50 It is not ellipsis. It is a 8-dots-ellipsis. 01:03:07 elliott, anyway don't complain about youtube-dl just because you don't use it. There are no technical problems with it as such. 01:03:13 Anyways, I find youtube-dl handy for things encoded with the wrong aspect ratio, black level too high, interlaced, or the like. 01:03:17 Vorpal: Except sucking. 01:03:21 zzo38: There is no such thing. 01:03:21 elliott, how does it suck? 01:03:26 Vorpal: Every way! 01:03:38 elliott, you are not helpful in the least 01:03:50 Vorpal: You see, it sucks. 01:03:52 elliott, stop being a turd. 01:03:54 Also, batch download of something I don't want to watch *right now* but would like to watch later. 01:03:58 Tuuuuurd 01:04:00 You love that word. 01:04:03 elliott, either say /why/ it sucks or shut up. 01:04:08 elliott: Stop being a dumbass. 01:04:10 elliott, no I don't. I used it once here. 01:04:13 Vorpal: Because it sucks. 01:04:14 pikhq, quite. 01:04:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:04:25 pikhq: I'm actually just trying to irritate him which is working splendidly. 01:04:28 there, ignore added 01:04:34 elliott: See, dumbass! 01:04:40 How surprising. I bet it'll last for a whole ten minutes. 01:04:46 pikhq: To be fair, it's Vorpal and he always deserves it. 01:04:48 pikhq, just use /ignore as well :) 01:05:07 Vorpal: Nah, he's not pissing me off. 01:05:10 elliott: Now there is such thing as 8-dots-ellipsis because I had just used it. 01:05:23 Short-term stupidity is not enough to anger me, or even care too much about. 01:05:24 pikhq, he is however a dumbass as usual 01:05:32 "As usual"? 01:05:40 It is a different kind of punctuation than ellipsis because it is different use. 01:05:40 Funny, he's usually fairly intelligent. 01:05:44 pikhq, well okay he has moments where he lacks that 01:05:47 pikhq: Tuuuuuuuuuurds 01:05:47 pikhq, quite often even 01:05:58 pikhq, BUT these dumbass moments are quite regular. 01:06:03 elliott: Yes, yes, pieces of fecal matter. 01:06:06 pikhq, every few days 01:06:13 Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurds 01:06:21 pikhq: What Vorpal fails to understand is that I optimise solely for irritating him 01:06:40 P.S. Vorpal is wrong, he's used "turd" on here twice before. 01:07:19 * pikhq hates knowing that everything sucks. 01:07:26 I can't fix it! I'd have to rewrite everything! 01:07:50 Every: OS, browser, emulator, compiler, etc. sucks ass. 01:07:56 Especially emulators. 01:07:58 * Vorpal checks log to see if elliott became saner 01:08:00 hm nope 01:08:06 Vorpal: Turds turds turds. 01:08:09 Turds turds turds. 01:08:12 TURDS. Turds turds. 01:08:15 I know you've been logreading all this time. 01:08:16 Tuuuuuurds 01:08:18 I know of only a handful that even emulate the system in question well. 01:08:19 elliott: Is that a real sentence? 01:08:22 (Please ignore me forever.) 01:08:24 zzo38: Yes. 01:08:30 pikhq: You don't need to rewrite the OS, just use @. 01:08:38 "17:06:40 P.S. Vorpal is wrong, he's used "turd" on here twice before." <-- as a matter of fact, you used the word before too. And using a word more than once doesn't really mean you love it. It wasn't recently in any case. 01:08:40 Fewer still that have a usable UI. 01:08:45 Precisely one with readable code. 01:08:48 Vorpal: Turdy turdy turd 01:08:50 (it is, amazingly, in C++.) 01:08:57 pikhq: @@@ 01:09:13 Yes, readable C++. 01:09:50 * Sgeo WTFs at iCraft 01:09:52 pikhq: @ @ @ best os ? best os 01:10:03 Sgeo: what about it 01:10:16 pikhq, what is in readable C++ hm? 01:10:22 Portals that just teleport to the same world? 01:10:28 the best operating system is plan 9 01:10:32 Vorpal: bsnes. 01:10:35 Sgeo: that's cool people did Portal esque stuff with it 01:10:35 pikhq, ah 01:10:41 Seriously, look at it. 01:10:45 cheater99: plan 9 is kinda lame. 01:10:52 it's a major improvement on unix but still way, way too little. 01:10:52 elliott: that's true. 01:10:56 It's, like, executable documentation of an SNES. 01:10:57 hell, genera was clloser. 01:11:01 *closer. 01:11:27 the problem with genera is it doesn't have plan9's gui 01:11:40 pikhq, but does it use enhanced cweb? *ducks* 01:11:51 No, it doesn't. 01:12:04 * Sgeo WTFs at iCraft <-- ? 01:12:13 cheater99: plan 9's gui is better than most GUIs but wildly substandard. 01:12:20 cheater99: genera's UI was nicer because it was basically Emacs. 01:12:35 Admittedly Plan 9's was more flexible. 01:12:36 i think the standard is the average, not the median 01:12:39 (Genera makes up for that by using Lisp.) 01:12:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:13:07 pikhq, but does it use CWEB or any variant of CWEB? *peoples* 01:13:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:13:15 zzo38: NEIN 01:13:17 *aardvarks* 01:14:15 elliott: the reason why i like calculators made out of ttl logic is that you can't write a kernel for them, precluding the whole os debate. 01:14:24 pikhq: today i uploaded an interlaced video to my sight which claims to be xhtml but is in fact subtly invalid on every page and sent out of text/html 01:14:25 cheater99: riiight 01:14:58 pikhq: it was about downloading a bunch of GoodSNES ROMs and playing them with ZSNES, which I praised as the best piece of software ever written 01:15:21 pikhq: i also mocked bsnes for having ridiculous system requirements 01:15:39 zsnes is really well made 01:16:12 cheater99, why could you not make a calculator with TTL logic capable of running an OS? 01:16:15 in theory I mean 01:16:21 cheater99: It's very good assembly code. Its emulation leaves much to be desired these days, though. 01:16:23 elliott: Fuck you. 01:16:25 sure you would need more than the standard components 01:16:37 pikhq: hahahahahahahaha successful trolling 01:16:40 i should actually do that 01:16:55 cheater99: zsnes is actually terrible. 01:17:07 cheater99: it's basically a collection of hacks to make the most popular games work and nothing else. 01:17:21 elliott: well, my experience with it was very good. 01:17:29 elliott: Like most emulators, sadly. 01:17:31 well, yes, just about any emulator can run $game. 01:17:34 that's nothing new. 01:17:49 pikhq: except for MAME!111 except MAME is, like, actively developed to be as useless for actually playing things as possible. 01:17:55 it always felt very solid and fast and the options it provided always set it apart from other emulators 01:18:03 Make something like TRIP test but meant to test NES emulator, SNES emulator, GameBoy emulator, etc. 01:18:27 cheater99: Among other things, zsnes will change the emulated clock rate to work around bugs in its emulation. 01:18:28 Vorpal: because then it'd be more than a calculator 01:18:28 Honest. 01:18:44 cheater99, well but nothing in TTL logic precludes it 01:18:46 pikhq: yeah, emulators are always funny 01:18:58 Vorpal: no, but the word "calculators" does 01:19:03 cheater99, also no. my TI-83+ is still a calculator. graphing calculator. 01:19:03 cheater99: Not all emulators are like that. 01:19:08 cheater99, with flash 01:19:09 and so on 01:19:14 cheater99, but it is a calculator 01:19:16 but it's not discrete ttl logic 01:19:20 cheater99: Though bsnes has somewhat high system requirements, it's very good... 01:19:24 cheater99, indeed. 01:19:34 cheater99: you can turn bsnes down btw to get something that runs fast with slightly lower compatibility 01:19:37 still vastly more than zsnes though 01:19:46 i don't remember if i'd ever used bsnes 01:19:51 cheater99, but then we seen that nothing in either "TTL logic" NOR "calculator" precludes being unable to have an OS 01:19:59 my current gripe is not having a working DS emulator 01:20:00 cheater99: zsnes in and of itself is not a problem, although I don't know why you'd use it; the problem is people who advocate it blindly and malign things like bsnes for no reason. 01:20:01 elliott: bsnes's performance profile will accurately emulate all but 1 licensed game and all but a handful of demos. 01:20:08 pikhq: Indeed. 01:20:16 cheater99, thus follows that a calculator in TTL logic could have an OS 01:20:17 cheater99: snes9x is better at "I just wanna play a game on this low-end machine", FWIW. 01:20:18 (Than zsnes.) 01:20:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVt9dgpxwF4&feature=related what's the point of making the stripes go all the way down? 01:20:49 pikhq, it has some other profile than "performance"? 01:20:52 cheater99: Its accuracy profile emulates every SNES game accurately except for 2, and the ones that use the Satellaview expansion. 01:21:01 Vorpal: Performance, compatibility, accuracy. 01:21:09 pikhq, compat does what? 01:21:16 pikhq, even more performance than performance? 01:21:38 Is there any sort of thing similar to TRIP test but is meant for testing accuracy of SNES emulation and so on? 01:21:44 pikhq, also wait. performance: all but 1. accuracy all but 2? 01:21:45 what? 01:21:49 No, it's lower performance than the performance profile, but it has a somewhat more accurate CPU and PPU emulation. 01:21:59 Vorpal: it's an ascending scale 01:22:02 performance does almost all shit 01:22:09 compatibility does almost all + 1 (I think everything?) 01:22:12 Vorpal: Oh, wait, I forgot to mention the 2 that can't be emulated *at all* currently. 01:22:12 Vorpal: yes, but the tense i used was present, i.e. "i like calculators (...)", not "i would like calculators (...)" 01:22:13 accuracy does EVERYTHING PERFECTLY EVER. 01:22:19 pikhq, ah 01:22:20 Ascending scale of system requirements. 01:22:21 Vorpal: this means, existing calculators. 01:22:29 cheater99, okay 01:22:34 Vorpal: Those 2 use special chips in the cartridge which have not been reverse engineered yet. 01:22:47 pikhq, ah the fun of those 01:23:01 It used to be 3, but SD Gundam GX's DSP chip got its program ROM dumped. 01:23:11 Like, last month. 01:23:11 nice 01:23:14 elliott: yes, snes9x always seemed faster i think 01:23:28 i remember not being able to play zsnes but being able to play snes9x at some point 01:23:35 pikhq: omg i just realised, bsnes will be like awesome on this machine 01:23:44 Anyways, on top of those and the Satellaview, you get lower compatibility with the other profiles. 01:23:54 this opponent thought he was so clever stuffing his king behind the pawn so the only way I could not stalemate was to lose the pawn 01:23:57 [[The following two titles are unplayable, due to special on-cart DSPs whose program ROMs have not been extracted. 01:23:57 Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 1 (uses ST-0011 co-processor) 01:23:58 Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 2 (uses ST-0018 co-processor) 01:23:59 Anything not in the above list is assumed to be fully compatible and bug-free.]] 01:24:07 he lost 4 moves after taking the pawn to my rook 01:25:05 pikhq: hmm, bsnes tries to build with g++-mp-4.5 01:25:06 what's -mp- 01:25:36 The compatibility profile makes a graphical effect on 1 single game stop working and a couple demos stop working, and the performance profile *in addition* might not have pixel-accurate rendering of frames on other games. 01:25:51 else ifneq ($(findstring Darwin,$(uname)),) 01:25:51 platform := osx 01:25:51 delete = rm -f $1 01:25:53 else 01:25:55 erm 01:26:00 else ifeq ($(platform),osx) 01:26:00 compiler := gcc-mp-4.5 01:26:00 pikhq, the latter has reasonable system requirements? 01:26:06 pikhq: That's a good sign the stock gcc won't work, isn't it. 01:26:26 multiprocessing ? 01:26:29 pikhq, where reasonable means playable on a sempron 3300+ ;) 01:26:38 Ha great, the gcc shipping with os x doesn't do c++0x. 01:27:01 Also, the performance profile can't do in-game debugging, and it doesn't emulate the bizarre requirement that you need to wait a few clock cycles before reading the result of a divide or multiply. 01:27:22 pikhq: Is the NES perfectly emulated yet? 01:27:25 elliott: Does gcc ship with OS X now? 01:27:33 zzo38: If you install the developer tools, yes. 01:27:34 I thought before you said it didn't. 01:27:36 Like it always has 01:27:41 But not in the very stock install, no. 01:27:45 No official games care, but *many* ROM hacks will not do the necessary wait, because no other emulator handles that right. 01:27:48 elliott: Nestopia. 01:28:03 pikhq: Is it reaaaaaally perfect though? 01:28:29 pikhq, does anything depend on that bizzare requirement 01:28:36 bizarre* 01:28:59 elliott: well unless it can emulate jitter in the master clock it's not perfect emulation 01:29:05 There is also the category of homebrew games, in addition to official and ROM hacks. 01:29:12 cheater99: Perfect assuming a flawless universe. :p 01:29:15 Vorpal: No. But if you don't account for it, the game won't work on real hardware. 01:29:15 i believe the master clock in the nes was a relaxation oscillator which was very funny 01:29:20 as opposed to a crystal 01:29:22 (they cheaped out) 01:29:23 pikhq, fair enough 01:29:27 cheater99: i.e., cycle exact. 01:29:30 this made games do funny things 01:29:35 Which is why bsnes emulates it. 01:29:42 slow down and speed up depending on what instructions were being run etc 01:29:49 The idea is that if the game runs on the accuracy profile, it will work on a real SNES. 01:30:01 "The Accuracy core uses a slower dot-based emulation of the S-PPU rather than the traditional scanline-based method found in other SNES emulators. The Compatibility core uses the scanline-based rendering with code speedups that obfuscate the source code to an extent" 01:30:05 Err, what a strange text from Wikipedia. 01:30:10 That text links to the article on code obfuscation. 01:30:12 why is there no good ds emulator? 01:30:14 What is it saying? "Performant code is ugly?" 01:30:25 cheater99, isn't there one semi-decent? 01:30:28 cheater99: Isn't NO$GBA meant to be popular. Or DeSmuME. 01:30:30 elliott: It's not obfuscated, it's just optimised rather than being clear documentation. 01:30:33 no$gba sucks 01:30:37 desmume sucks even more 01:30:39 pikhq: Right. 01:30:51 I'm not sure who wrote that line in the Wikipedia article, but eeew. 01:31:04 no$gba is terrible: no saves, games are halfway unplayable 01:31:07 pikhq: OK, what simple systems aren't perfectly emulated. :p 01:31:12 pikhq: IT SOUNDS LIKE FUN 01:31:13 desmume is impossibly megaslow 01:31:23 and also games are unplayable 01:31:42 elliott: Probably not the Gameboy Advance. 01:31:52 *Definitely* not the Playstation. 01:31:57 pikhq: Oo, we have different definitions of simple, my friend. 01:32:04 And beyond that you're dealing with "insanely complex". 01:32:52 elliott: Okay, okay, lowering it a bit, then. Gameboy Advance not emulated well, nor, to my knowledge, is the Virtual Boy. 01:32:59 sega dreamcast 01:33:02 erm 01:33:04 sega saturn!! 01:33:05 haha 01:33:08 pikhq: What about the original Gameboy? 01:33:28 elliott: Gambatte or KiGB are believed to be as accurate as humanly possible. 01:33:39 pikhq: SUGGEST A SYSTEM 01:33:44 cheater99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haOCJ8wL0OA 01:33:50 Gambatte is used in bsnes for its Super Gameboy emulation currently. 01:34:34 elliott: The Magnavox Odyssey! 01:34:54 pikhq: Insufficiently interesting :P 01:35:00 It is, in fact, *completely* unemulated. 01:35:23 -!- p_q has joined. 01:35:30 pikhq: ...really? 01:35:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:35:37 pikhq: Analogue circuitry. NO THANK YOU. 01:35:42 >:D 01:35:53 pikhq: Cycle-exact emulation is therefore utterly impossible on a digital machine :P 01:36:13 elliott: Emulation of anything more recent than the SNES pretty much sucks ass. 01:36:18 pikhq: Hmm, is the C64 perfectly emulated? 01:36:32 pikhq: VICE is pretty good, it's handled everything I've thrown at it and god knows C64 programmers do awful things to that machine. But? 01:36:45 elliott: that's a troll right 01:36:54 cheater99: What is? 01:37:06 the video! 01:37:10 cheater99: No, it's real. 01:37:16 cheater99: ly terrible. 01:37:43 elliott: VICE seems to not be a perfect emulator... 01:37:53 the voice at the end coming from offscreen sounds like zombo.com 01:37:58 cheater99: lol 01:37:59 pikhq: :( 01:38:10 But it's close. 01:38:11 pikhq: The C64 is so complicated though, simply because of all the bugs and intricacies of implementation :P 01:38:20 Quite. 01:38:20 pikhq: yeah, probably easier to leave the VICE people to finish the job 01:38:25 GO FURTHER THAN YOU HAVE EVER GONE BEFORE. SEGA SATURN. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH SEGA SATURN. 01:38:30 pikhq: Suggest another machine, then :p 01:38:33 I WANNA EMULATE 01:38:33 WELCOME TO SEGA SATURN 01:38:48 cheater99: You will have nightmares about Silver Head tonight. 01:38:53 hoxs64 appears to be perfect but DOESN'T HAVE SOURCE. 01:38:56 what's silver head again? 01:38:56 Are you ready... for the future? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA 01:38:57 elliott: Gameboy Advance. 01:39:05 cheater99: That guy. 01:39:07 In the ad. 01:39:08 It's probably simpler than the SNES to emulate. 01:39:12 well 01:39:13 pikhq: Isn't the GBA pretty damn advanced though? :p 01:39:19 i thought i'd check out another promo 01:39:21 pikhq: Lord knows the GBA emulators still get updated. 01:39:25 i clicked and thought it can't be that bad 01:39:40 after exactly 7 seconds i have realized how wrong i was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99iiUtPR-fM&NR=1 01:39:57 It's similar to the SNES in capability, except without all the things that make emulator authors cry. 01:40:01 pikhq: http://www.hoxs64.net/files/hoxs64.txt "Hoxs64 V1.0.0 BETA (c) 2001 David Horrocks" ""Core 2 Duo 1.5Ghz or Athlon 2Ghz or Pentium4 3Ghz." 01:40:02 TIME TRAVELLER 01:40:05 at the 12th second i have paused because i couldn't watch on. 01:40:19 cheater99: SOLDIER ON 01:40:45 elliott: in fact the Hoxs64 project is a secret prototype benchmark for future generations of computer processors 01:40:55 :D 01:40:58 (16 MHz ARM, 4/8 MHz GB-Z80, *no fucking crazy PPU*, and NO SPECIAL CHIPS. AT ALL.) 01:41:02 cheater99: oh god, that one you linked 01:41:04 cheater99: is the same one 01:41:06 there, timed ignore expired 01:41:06 it goes to Silver Head 01:41:08 after saturngirl 01:41:08 as they are released to the public, his nda allows him to add more architectures to the compatibility list 01:41:08 I see 01:41:12 Vorpal: turds turds turds 01:41:18 cheater99, that ad, I think I saw myst in it 01:41:25 (the sega one) 01:42:07 elliott: oh damn, i hadn't even noticed 01:42:16 elliott: i just paused on alienhead 01:42:19 cheater99: then it goes on to do all sorts of things, from skipping around 01:42:23 worst advert or best advert? 01:42:25 i can't decide 01:42:39 elliott: BTW, *most* emulators "still in development" don't focus much on improving emulation accuracy. 01:42:40 pikhq: I'll start a perfect emulation project for the GBA if you'll help. :p 01:42:43 THE INFINITE IS ATTAINABLE WITH SEGA SATURN 01:42:48 Right. Which is why it sounds fun. 01:42:54 And also _easier_; I can just implement the behaviour directly. 01:42:56 Amusingly. SNES9x actually does improve on accuracy. 01:43:04 pikhq: BUT YOU HAVE TO HELP because I'm supremely laz. 01:43:04 y. 01:43:08 IIRC they now use the same sound emulation as bsnes. 01:43:15 worst advert or best advert? <-- worst by far I ever seen 01:43:26 cheater99: BTW, NO$GBA is _meant_ to be a pretty good DS emulator for actually playing games... 01:43:32 Vorpal: But is it the worst or the _best_? 01:43:36 Vorpal: I can imagine Lynch creating that. 01:43:38 elliott: i know 01:43:50 elliott: but it doesn't work for XX XY which immediately disqualifies it 01:43:55 and you only find out when you get to scene 8. 01:44:11 at least it doesn't work in wine. 01:44:26 elliott: FIrst and foremost, use Byuu's libco. 01:44:32 elliott, the one with the woman looks like it would be against Swedish law. Gender discrimination. 01:44:33 elliott: That alone will save you a lot of effort. 01:44:43 elliott, as in, as an *ad* in Sweden 01:44:46 Vorpal: You mean the thing at the start? 01:44:49 elliott, yes 01:44:52 the thing at the start 01:44:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpA3RJyyVSk 01:44:58 vectorman and ecco were really cool 01:45:00 Vorpal: What if it was immediately followed by the same thing with a man. 01:45:05 the one game i had never beat: the ooze 01:45:10 it was very fun too, but tough 01:45:12 elliott, doubt it would help if it was a man 01:45:23 Vorpal: heh 01:45:29 pikhq: Is libco anything but coroutines? 01:45:35 Nope! 01:45:42 pikhq: But there are hundreds of coroutine libs. 01:45:48 elliott, also what was the target audience? kids? 01:45:50 libco's small and simple. 01:45:51 or older? 01:46:02 Vorpal: 13-year-olds who think it's cool. 01:46:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNbx53ErzQ 01:46:06 pikhq: X-D Look at the first post on http://byuu.org/. 01:46:15 pikhq: I sure hope he's not planning to upgrade that to Advance. 01:46:15 elliott, if kids they would have been into /deep shit/ in Sweden with such an ad. 01:46:22 elliott, because then stricter rules apply 01:46:27 elliott: He's not even intending to upgrade that to Color. 01:46:39 What about PC emulation (for playing those DOS games that no longer work well under modern OSes)? 01:46:50 elliott: It's meant to replace Gambatte for his Super Gameboy emulation. 01:46:56 -!- FireyFly has joined. 01:47:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:47:00 Ilari: Bochs is pretty much cycle-accurate PC emulation. 01:47:04 DOSBox is usually more useful, though. 01:47:07 pikhq: Fair enough then. 01:47:20 pikhq: So will you at least half-heartedly help with a GBA emulation project or do I have to be all alone :p 01:47:32 I may well help with it. 01:47:53 Though I wish I had a GBA flash cart so we could actually do hardware tests when necessary. 01:47:58 pikhq: Hey, didn't you say you'd port bsnes' Qt UI to libsnes? Seems he's already done that and looking for a maintainer ... 01:48:16 "my megadrive, which is the japamanese original one" 01:48:21 And maintainers have already stepped up before I saw that. :P 01:48:22 pikhq: Also, that would be nice. Aren't they still sold? 01:48:32 Yes-ish. 01:48:48 "As a consequence, the bsnes download page has removed reference to the old bsnes/Qt v070 release. This site will only focus on pure accuracy at any cost. I am hoping that the future Qt maintainer can set up a page for casual SNES emulator users to peruse." 01:48:55 Is he trying to... become an emulation academic? 01:49:02 Ph.D. in emulation? 01:49:10 Though it's possible later consoles actually change details. 01:49:19 elliott: He actually did not graduate from high school. 01:49:19 pikhq: I mean the flash carts. 01:49:26 Oh, yeah, totally. 01:49:29 That's nothing new. :p 01:49:35 I have a GBA from launch. 01:49:39 Whoo. 01:49:45 pikhq: I have an Advanced SP but not an original Advanced, but I'm faaairly sure they're absolutely identical internals-wise. 01:49:51 Except with a BACKLIGHT which is a killer feature. 01:49:56 Probably, but not necessarily. 01:50:16 The SNES's smaller revision actually changed a lot of details, for instance. 01:50:30 elliott, perfect gba emulation? cool 01:50:35 Oh, it's atually frontlit. Ha. 01:50:35 perfect gameshark emulation too? 01:50:40 pikhq: Eh, I can always eBay. 01:50:44 (it's effectively the same as a cheap SNES clone from China, as far as capabilities go.) 01:50:59 (yes, this means bsnes is more accurate than some "real" SNES's) 01:51:06 Vorpal: Paaatches welcome, I have no idea about the GBA hardware so this will basically be a diary of learning in version control form :) 01:51:25 elliott, well I have no GBA hardware 01:51:33 elliott, so I'm pretty much useless on this 01:51:35 Vorpal: Fairly cheap right now. 01:51:45 Vorpal: The hardware won't help me *much*; I'll probably end up scouring the web for documentation to start with. 01:51:48 pikhq, not sure I really care enough to get a gba 01:51:58 Aw, but the GBA is a really nice cons... sort of. 01:52:06 ...I can't actually think of many good non-Pokemon games for it really. 01:52:17 elliott: Sonic Advance was decent. 01:52:18 BUT WHO CARES 01:52:21 elliott, zelda's link awakening? 01:52:28 Vorpal: GBC 01:52:34 Oh, yeah, the Zeldas are probably good, never got around to playing any Zelda games on GBA. 01:52:40 pikhq, oh right. But I played it in visual boy advance? 01:52:43 Also, ports of good games. 01:52:51 Vorpal: Which also emulates the GB/GBC. 01:52:55 Inaccurately, but hey. 01:53:00 pikhq, ah, so this won't work in your emulator then? 01:53:05 :/ 01:53:06 -!- p_q has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:53:11 It's actually not too much work to add GB or GBC emulation to a GBA emulator. 01:53:26 well zelda is cool. Needs to be there and so on 01:53:26 The GBA uses the GB-Z80 for some sound effects. 01:53:35 heh 01:53:50 Vorpal: *my emulator! 01:53:55 pikhq is just helping because I'm forcing him to. 01:53:57 Like a wizard. 01:53:59 An evil wizard. 01:54:13 elliott, right got it. You are the figure head. 01:54:32 right. 01:54:36 I meant 01:54:40 missed a dot there 01:54:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:54:55 * pikhq wonders how painful the ARM is. 01:55:37 pikhq: o god, i have to emulate an arm? 01:55:48 elliott: Main CPU. 01:55:50 Oh god, it's Thumb too. All new and modern. 01:55:54 It has a 16 MHz ARM. 01:56:15 Hmm. 01:56:20 couldn't you reuse ARM code from qemu or something? 01:56:22 Also a GB-Z80! 01:56:23 iPod, Lego Mindstorms, Roomba... 01:56:27 All use the same CPU. 01:56:32 what you really want to emulate is a directx8 pc for games 01:56:32 Vorpal: I doubt that's cycle-accurate. 01:56:35 elliott, I beg to differ 01:56:37 that should be fairly easy. 01:56:37 Vorpal: qemu is very solidly not an accurate emulator. 01:56:40 elliott, lego mindstorms NXT sure 01:56:46 NXT, yes. 01:56:50 Vorpal: It's like a half-JIT. 01:56:57 You're the only person with a shitty enough university to care about mindstorms >:) 01:57:00 elliott, but RCX used a H8300 01:57:10 pikhq: Maaybe not the GBA then... ARM sounds kinda painful. 01:57:11 ennough with this mc 01:57:16 Maybe but, maybe not. 01:57:16 Probably works just fine for emulating a Linux system, but game consoles tend to care about a lot of annoying details. 01:57:16 elliott, hey this I care about due to my free time 01:57:17 goodnight 01:57:22 nooga: buy it and you can get on our server :p 01:57:29 Vorpal: Ahh, so you're just hopeless then! 01:57:36 elliott, elliott anyway RCX has a Hitachi H8300 01:57:38 as the CPU 01:57:43 Hitachi make CPUs? 01:57:46 elliott, used to 01:57:49 Western Digital CPUs! 01:57:52 Seagate CPUs! 01:57:53 MAXTOR CPUS 01:57:53 elliott, they sold the division 01:57:56 QUANTUM CPUS 01:57:58 I wanna do something 01:58:00 I can't think of what though 01:58:03 elliott, nvidia cpus next 01:58:06 coppro: HELP ME WRITE A PERFECT GBA EMULATOR. 01:58:11 which is weird because I'm pretty sure it's like one thing 01:58:12 elliott: no u 01:58:25 ima go one-line more project euler in Haskell 01:58:26 Vorpal: ATI CPUs, yes; well, AMD Vision CPUs, which will just be called AMD CPUs. 01:58:27 But yes :P 01:58:30 coppro: J bitch 01:58:43 I actually bet the Atari is a royal pain to emulate. 01:58:46 coppro: Q: What do J users call the activity that other languages' users call "one-lining"? A: Half-charactering. 01:58:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H8_Family 01:58:58 elliott, "H8 is the name of a large family of 8-bit and 16-bit microcontrollers made by Renesas Technology, originating in the early 1990s within Hitachi Semiconductor and still actively evolving as of 2006." 01:59:25 elliott, I believe they were Hitachi when the first RCX were produced 01:59:34 and then later they become Renesas for later model RCX 01:59:45 I'm not about to pry my two RCX open to check though 01:59:46 Renesas. Sounds terrorist. 02:00:12 mr spock is having a seizure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvgteRnaIhA&feature=related 02:00:35 pikhq: Before I get started on any of this though, I need to get Ubuntu installed. 02:00:43 Especially as almost every game more advanced than Pong was actually exploiting unintended hardware features. 02:00:50 pikhq: Look at what OS X gives me: 02:00:50 say what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytwbGVExWi8&feature=related 02:00:52 pikhq: i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1 (GCC) 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5664) 02:01:03 pikhq: Did I mention you have to use -fnested-functions to get nested functions? For no reason? 02:01:10 elliott: am I a bad person: triangles n = (:) <*> (:[]) . (+1) 02:01:12 elliott: Bleck. 02:01:17 coppro: haha they're smiling 02:01:24 err 02:01:25 s/n/ 02:01:44 coppro: that won't parse 02:01:45 i don't think 02:01:46 needs more parens 02:01:56 Heck, displaying more than 2 sprites on the 2600 required using hardware bugs. 02:01:57 02:01 elliott: @pl ((:) <*> (:[])) . (+1) 02:01:57 02:01 lambdabot: ((:) <*> return) . (1 +) 02:01:59 coppro: HTH 02:02:00 elliott, wait, isn't .|. bitwise or in haskell? 02:02:10 Vorpal: Umm, if you import Data.Bits I think. 02:02:14 pikhq: X-D 02:02:15 elliott, ah right 02:02:24 Vorpal: Why? 02:02:26 pikhq: Any console ideas that don't involve ARM? 02:02:29 elliott, it always looked so dirty to me :P 02:02:46 elliott, what about GBC? 02:02:46 Vorpal: Well, yeah, you're doing bitwise manipulations, you should feel dirt. 02:02:47 *dirty. 02:02:50 I don't think had ARM 02:02:53 elliott: N64? 02:02:54 Vorpal: GBC has been done perfectly, I believe. 02:02:56 it had* 02:02:57 >:D 02:02:57 pikhq can confirm/deny 02:03:02 elliott, n64 yes! 02:03:09 pikhq: Fuck you, man, N64 is where high-level emulators got INVENTED :P 02:03:22 Vorpal: 100% game and demo compatibility has been achieved by two *different* emulators for the GBC. 02:03:28 Proper N64 rerecording emulation would be pretty big deal... 02:03:41 Ilari, quite. Will you help elliott on this? 02:03:44 elliott: Yes, because nobody bothered emulating the RDP right. 02:03:49 Ilari: Don't believe his lies. 02:03:53 pikhq: I'm not doing N64. Ever. 02:03:57 Okay. 02:04:02 i want one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXHM1I8wgtc&feature=related 02:04:17 Hmm. I'm actually unsure about the Sega family of systems. 02:04:31 Not even if the Singularity comes and we all get infinite lifespans to spend how I wish, and I perform every other possible action such that each action in the set can be performed in a time span of 700 billion years or less, 02:04:32 (Master System/Genesis/Game Gear) 02:04:40 not even then will I write a cycle-accurate N64 emulator. 02:04:41 As would be proper rerecording emulation of Sega Saturn or Sega Dreamcast... 02:04:46 *how we wish, 02:04:47 pikhq, which one was RDP then? 02:04:48 (et cetra) 02:04:51 NEVER. 02:04:53 Vorpal: Graphics. 02:04:56 pikhq, ah 02:05:07 Vorpal: You could upload microcode to it, and many games did this. 02:05:22 Vorpal: N64 emulators just emulate the behavior of the microcode instead. 02:05:35 Not only will a metal ball the size of the sun be worn down by solar winds before I emulate the N64, but entire universes will be simulated from start to finish such that if each universe took up a quark it would result in a ball the size of the sun when packed together with no empty space between them at all. 02:05:48 And even then, I will not write a cycle-accurate Nintendo 64 emulator. 02:05:49 This works for a *large* number of games (because few people actually *wrote* microcode), but quite a few get left out. 02:05:54 pikhq: DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET 02:06:10 OR AM I NOT BEING QUITE EXPRESSIVE ENOUGH 02:06:12 LET ME TRY 02:06:19 elliott: Cycle-accurate might be unneeded. 02:06:47 pikhq: Even if your mother loses SO MUCH WEIGHT that she's actually NO LONGER CLASSED AS OBESE — which would take longer than the universe will last — I will not write a Nintendo 64 emulator. 02:06:53 Anyways. 02:06:55 ...okay, maybe if /that/ much time passes I will. 02:06:56 BUT NO SOONER 02:07:33 susan plays streets of rage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyaiGLITrN8&feature=related 02:07:35 I do not know of an accurate emulator for the Genesis. 02:07:44 pikhq: I do not know of any good games for the Genesis. 02:07:51 elliott: Sonic Sonic Sonic! 02:08:01 pikhq: Bah :P 02:08:21 Though that would be a *royal* pain if you want to emulate the 32x or the CD as well. 02:08:23 elliott: you should make an emulator that JUST runs sonic 1/2/3/k 02:08:37 I want to write an emulator that JUST runs the 8-bit Sonic. 02:08:40 Easy if you want to emulate the Game Gear or the Master System, or the SG-1000... 02:08:45 Before they decided that the best way to market consoles was to make him run REALLY FAST. 02:08:49 (Stupidest decision ever?) 02:08:59 best stupidest decision ever. 02:09:16 Worst. 02:09:16 (Sega's systems before the Saturn were based around the same hardware) 02:09:27 I don't actually /like/ most of the Sonic games. 02:09:36 (many of them were even electrically compatible) 02:09:44 When you reduce the majority of play to going really fast, you don't have any game left. 02:10:28 (see http://newbreview.com/2010/07/22/retro-fix-sonic-the-hedgehog-8-bit/, btw) 02:11:15 -!- zeotrope has joined. 02:11:24 pikhq: Maybe I'll perfectly emulate a seriously fucked up fictional system whose only game is I Wanna Be The Guy. 02:11:42 but I do wanna be the guy 02:12:01 pikhq: Perhaps I'll design my own architecture based on the IWBTG executable. "Why, this complicated Windows API call? Looks like a really long CPU instruction to me!" 02:12:11 So that the .exe works as a ROM. :p 02:13:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBVn0g7fZTU&feature=related WTF 02:13:18 "Dig straight down" 02:13:31 Good PC rerecording emulation would also be quite a deal (so far PC rerecording emulation is pretty much garbage). 02:13:43 Sgeo: Digging straight down is not deadly if you're, say, on the surface and just doing it for a few blocks ... 02:14:04 Ilari: Rerecording is actually pretty easy if you've got cycle-accurate emulation. 02:14:22 You pretty much just need the ability to serialise after a clock cycle, and restore that. 02:14:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2mpcssg274&feature=related < 1:20 02:14:44 Ilari: How is that Nethack TAS going btw? 02:14:57 Of course, the PC is freaking painful to do cycle-accurately. 02:15:04 Everything changes from system to system! 02:15:18 Sgeo: Holy shit this is overcomplicated. 02:16:10 elliott: Seems like turn 317, fighting The Wizard of Yendor. 02:16:13 Of course, the PC is freaking painful to do cycle-accurately. Everything changes from system to system! <-- then you probably don't need it. Since nothing will assume cycle accurate anyway 02:16:15 right? 02:16:21 Ilari: RNG hackery I presume? :) 02:16:26 Lots. 02:16:34 Vorpal: You need it for perfect TASing. 02:16:44 Since the goal is basically "take as few cycles as possible". 02:16:44 elliott: make an emacs emulator 02:16:49 elliott: it only runs emacs. 02:16:52 elliott, perfect in the sense it could not be done on a real machine? 02:17:16 Well, it may be needed, but only for early PC games. 02:17:24 Like, the original IBM PC. 02:17:44 Vorpal: That applies to all TASes, pretty much. 02:17:51 cheater99: done, it's called emacs 02:17:59 elliott: oh snap. 02:18:16 elliott: what about emulating an lcd game? 02:18:22 elliott: egg harvest! 02:18:27 boring 02:19:08 hmm.. 02:19:37 I'll emulate anything simpler than an ARM :P 02:19:45 cray x-mp? 02:19:51 ok, ok 02:19:54 old nokia phone? 02:20:03 elliott: Atari 2600? 02:20:05 cheater99: bit pointless :P 02:20:16 pikhq: I thought you just said that wast he land of *insane* hardware glithces. 02:20:20 *was the *glitches 02:20:21 elliott, I pretty much stopped watching, got distracted 02:20:28 elliott: *And* NTSC artifacts! 02:20:42 elliott, why not make a cycle accurate calculator emulator? Say, TI-82 or some such 02:20:53 Also, no framebuffer. 02:20:54 Vorpal: Aren't there already? 02:20:54 At all. 02:20:55 because who cares 02:20:56 elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculator_gaming 02:21:03 elliott, I don't know if they are cycle accurate 02:21:05 I know perfectly well tyvm 02:21:20 If people arnen't stupid enough they will understand that it is FAKE 02:21:20 DetHeMi 1 week ago 02:21:20 @DetHeMi lol, well done 02:21:21 WtfMinecraft 1 week ago 02:21:23 Sgeo: ^ 02:21:27 elliott: why is arm so difficult to emulate? 02:21:34 cheater99: it's just a complicated normalarchitecture 02:22:02 cheater99: Some newer consoles are probably worse than just dealing with the ARM, though. 02:22:14 Namely, ones where you need to emulate a large number of CPUs. 02:22:23 (looking at *you*, Sony.) 02:22:23 Sgeo: dunno if it is fake though 02:22:31 Sgeo: it looks real enough, but it'd be one-use 02:22:32 ds is just arm7 and arm9 or something like that 02:22:44 elliott, I didn't even watch it 02:22:50 I'm talking to someone >.> 02:22:59 Sgeo: Is it Alluded-To. 02:23:04 Yes 02:23:16 elliott, generic cycle accurate ARM emulator. Then you can just add on some custom code for each of the ARM products. And you done lots of different consoles and tools 02:23:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHMiJFfsEj4&NR=1 02:23:28 elliott, you could do a roomba emulator even (not sure why though!) 02:23:34 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram). 02:23:36 Vorpal: ROOMBA EMULATOR OMG YES 02:23:42 Vorpal: I'd put it in horrible mazes and watch it suffer. 02:23:52 what's roomba? 02:23:53 elliott, I knew you would love that 02:23:54 And then put it in a huge clean room with no obstacles because I feel sorry for it. 02:23:56 :( 02:24:00 cheater99: a robot that cleans. 02:24:05 oh that thing 02:24:10 cheater99: And the Gameboy is "just" an ARM7 and a GB-Z80. 02:24:13 Still a pain. 02:24:13 Sayyygaaaaaah! 02:24:23 Erm, Gameboy Advance. 02:24:30 The Gameboy is just a GB-Z80. 02:24:37 -!- variable has joined. 02:24:38 pikhq, what about GBC? 02:24:47 Vorpal: Twice the clock rate, same CPU. 02:24:51 ah 02:25:02 Also, palleting. 02:26:06 pikhq: Are you suuuure the GBC is cycle-perfected? 02:26:08 GB, sure, but GBC? 02:26:53 cycle-perfected? 02:27:08 hrm haskell 02:27:10 stop being lame 02:27:16 coppro: emulated perfectly to cycle granularity 02:28:37 GBC ? 02:28:54 garbage collection ? 02:29:09 variable: game boy colour 02:29:12 Yay, we scheduled a day 02:30:21 Sgeo: Stop alluding to Alluded-To. 02:31:04 -!- calamari has joined. 02:32:10 coppro: emulated perfectly to cycle granularity <-- what, no more 02:32:16 what about sub cycle? 02:32:26 elliott, emulate the actual transistors 02:32:32 cycle perfected = ? 02:32:32 * variable knows little about emulation 02:32:33 elliott, with quantum noise! 02:32:53 Vorpal: what about background radiation 02:32:59 cheater99, that too of course 02:33:01 variable: cycle-perfect emulation 02:33:09 variable: i.e., perfect emulation down to the cycle level of every internal piece of hardware 02:33:27 cheater99, and thermal noise of course 02:33:27 Nintendo DS is ARM7 and ARM9. Official games all use the standard ARM7 code, though. Homebrew games will use their own ARM7 codes, so you will need to emulate the ARM7 if you want to emulate homebrew Nintendo DS programs. 02:33:54 ahhh - lag 02:34:05 * Sgeo lols at "quckly" 02:34:15 elliott: you want to emulate ds 02:34:15 It's not as though the flow of water will stop 02:34:23 cheater99: no, way too much work 02:34:33 elliott: let me redefine 02:34:40 elliott: you want to make an XX XY emulator 02:34:56 No, I don't :P 02:35:05 it's a good game :p 02:35:58 I wrote a GameBoy game once, I had to add a extra VBLANK to make it work on Goomba emulator 02:36:46 { I have 23 second lag now - so my questions/comments may seem a bit off - sorry } 02:37:44 elliott: make a (working and usable) eniac emulator 02:37:49 cheater99: no :P 02:37:51 those exist iirc 02:37:58 usable 02:38:01 that's simpler than arm!!!! 02:38:15 elliott: make a (working and usable) eniac emulator IN MINECRAFT 02:38:22 HA 02:38:28 cheater99: i've played the tic-tac-toe game on an eniac emulator iirc 02:38:48 elliott: Very. 02:38:54 elliott: Gambatte and KiGB do so. 02:38:55 cheater99, don't take a productive member of society and encourage him to play minecraft 02:39:02 its just wrong 02:39:06 variable: encourage? he needs no encouragement 02:39:15 pikhq: ;_; 02:39:17 variable: Dude, I already play Minecraft :P 02:39:26 And I'm nooooot a productive member of society except by really strange definitions. 02:39:34 elliott: With a cycle-accurate emulation, you can do mode 7-like effects on there. 02:39:49 WHY HAS EVERYONE GOT TO PLACES BEFORE I GET TO PLACES 02:39:56 Yes, with hardware that's on par with the NES. 02:40:57 (note: unintended feature) 02:41:02 elliott: i thought GBC wasn't very different from GB 02:41:08 it isn't, but dammit :P 02:41:22 cheater99: No it is basically the same. Just it is color 02:41:29 zzo38: And double clock-rate. 02:41:42 Which is fairly easy to account for. 02:41:43 pikhq: It supports double clock-rate but you can switch it at run-time 02:41:50 Well, yeah. 02:41:50 yea, so why would gbc be that different from gb to warrant: GB, sure, but GBC? ? 02:42:09 cheater99: because the extra bits might not be perfect yet! :P 02:42:13 GBC emulation comes almost for free from GB emulation. 02:42:20 elliott: they might be rotting 02:42:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:42:34 pikhq: [[Lastly, there was the case of Speedy Gonzales. In level 6-1, there is a switch that needs to be hit to finish the level. Up until recently, this game would lock up any emulator when it was hit. You can probably imagine why this was overlooked, but it's quite a big deal to play a game that long and instantly lose all of your progress due to an emulation bug. In this case, it actually turns out to be a bug in the game itself. B 02:42:35 ut as it works on hardware, it needs to work under emulation as well. It is reading from an unmapped memory address, and will not break out of this loop until it gets the value it wants. As it turns out, after so many tests, eventually the read will happen immediately after an HDMA transfer, which will update the S-CPU's memory data register, giving the game the value it needs to break out of the loop.]] 02:42:43 byuu: you are crazy. 02:42:50 elliott: Yes, yes he is. 02:43:04 byuu: we won't hold it against you if you just lie down for a day. srsly. 02:43:06 promise. 02:43:09 relax. 02:43:31 elliott: He actually doesn't do *too* much of the hardware testing. 02:43:47 Though his dump-all-SNES-games project is positively crazy. 02:43:55 In the awesome sort of way, of course. 02:44:04 [[blargg's S-DSP core is known to be 100% bit-perfect to real hardware, with the one exception that the mute command is instant, and does not exhibit a very fast fade-out effect.]] 02:44:05 UN 02:44:06 AC 02:44:07 FUCKING 02:44:08 CEPTABLE! 02:44:16 TRASH IT OUT AND WRITE A NEW ONE 02:44:20 *THROW 02:44:23 elliott: Analog... 02:44:36 pingveno: EMULATE 02:44:36 PURE 02:44:37 ANALOGUE 02:44:38 UNIVERSE 02:44:40 *pikhq: 02:45:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EMX8qIgWOs 02:45:22 THE ACTION 02:46:37 pikhq: Srsly, computers should come with reprogrammable analogue hardware. :D 02:46:42 elliott: make a cycle accurate emulation of a DX-7 with the option of scaling it up to 64 fs 02:46:57 cheater99: Those sound effects are fake, right? 02:47:01 Or is it actaully hooked up to a speaker? 02:47:02 *actually 02:47:05 i'd think so 02:47:06 elliott: Do you know how to make up such computer hardware? 02:47:09 elliott: Y'know who's crazy? Dr. Decapitator. 02:47:26 pikhq: Anyone who purports to be a doctor and then decapitates people is crazy. 02:47:29 zzo38: Nope. 02:47:33 cheater99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMmUciXRMaI&feature=related realistic 02:47:37 i'd think what 02:47:38 fake or speaker 02:47:45 elliott: He decaps chips for MAME, and has been doing so for bsnes as well. 02:47:59 i was replying to the first 02:48:10 pikhq: I should write a CYCLE-ACCURATE emulator of the MT-32. 02:48:13 pikhq: Note: The MT-32 is analogue. 02:48:18 i don't think there's even any sort of pcm sound on the ti 83 02:48:23 pikhq: Seriously, why don't computers come with reprogrammable analogue. 02:48:30 cheater99: just generate raw pcm data and send it over a wire :D 02:48:31 se'hųku ni site, ne. 02:48:34 pikhq: what 02:48:44 i saw that halo 3 thing too 02:48:44 Commit suicide, right? 02:48:46 I think the TI-83 has no built-in sound at all (although you could connect an external speaker) 02:48:53 pikhq: clearly 02:49:18 zzo38: It had a TSR jack connected to a UART... 02:49:27 zzo38: You could *probably* get square wave audio out of there. 02:49:39 oh yes 02:49:47 and with PWM, you could totally emulate normal sound 02:49:53 pikhq: If you have such a calculator, could you try that? 02:49:54 what frequency did the uart work at? 02:50:57 [[The past three years have been amazing. I know that SNES emulation can never be 100% perfect, but I finally feel that I have reached a point where I could walk away from bsnes and feel that my job is done. That the SNES hardware is very well preserved for future generations.]] 02:51:01 I bet he questions that not-100% thing now. 02:51:02 zzo38: You could *probably* get square wave audio out of there. <-- been done 02:51:26 I have a TI-83+ but they connector is not a normal speaker connector I think 02:51:29 it is longer 02:51:41 Uh, 9600 kbit/s. Knowing how serial works, that gets you... 76.8 MHz audio. 02:51:53 wait 02:51:55 76.8 MHz, 1 bit audio. 02:51:58 is that 9.6 mbit/s? 02:52:08 Erm, 9600 bits/s. 02:52:09 Sorry. 02:52:16 76.8 kHz audio. 02:52:23 pikhq: Ha. MAME SNES emulation is worse than something called "ESNES". 02:52:26 Which is still enough for *recognisable* audio. 02:52:28 Is that a good enough audio to make a telephone noise? 02:52:31 pikhq, TI-83/83+ has crazy cable 02:52:34 pikhq, just saying 02:52:38 it's 1 bit 02:52:59 it's sort of like 16 khz 4 bit audio 02:53:00 pikhq, the computer link had to include a PIC to deal with translating to something that the computer could use 02:53:31 which is going to go up to say 8 khz 02:53:38 so you could do speech... very nasty speech 02:54:13 [[Oh, and believe it or not, until recently MAME/MESS used floating point for their synchronization counters.]] 02:54:13 barf 02:54:22 cheater99, you could do chiptune style music 02:54:22 wtf? 02:54:30 pikhq: 76.8 kHz is enough for anything isn't it? 02:54:41 Telephone is generally done with 8 kHz, 8-bit mu-law audio. 02:54:43 elliott: 1-bit. 02:54:49 elliott: make a working mortal kombat trilogy arcade emulator, cycle-accurate 02:55:04 But yeah, you could *definitely* get workable audio out of there. 02:55:12 pikhq, BEEN DONE 02:55:24 as I said above 02:55:34 pikhq: yeah, it could definitely work 02:55:38 pikhq: someone would have to try it 02:55:48 cheater99, :P 02:55:54 it would be cool if someone did that 02:55:57 shame it hasn't happened yet 02:55:58 i wonder why 02:56:04 elliott, very droll 02:56:10 elliott: maybe it's just a discovery waiting to happen?? 02:56:16 cheater99: Let's try it out! 02:56:18 elliott: maybe the ti 83 is actually skynet! 02:56:21 I wrote a program once on Linux that generates a lot of telephone noises, including: arbitrary frequency, red box, blue box, silver box, dial tone, busy signal, special information tones, ... 02:56:24 I wonder if it IS possible. 02:56:26 Vorpal: Is it possible? 02:56:34 . 02:56:36 and it's waiting for us to plug earphones into the port... a digital port, connected directly to our crania 02:56:45 Vorpal: y/n? 02:56:47 NO FUTURE 02:56:57 elliott µ 02:57:17 Vorpal: \0 02:57:23 ° 02:57:47 elliott: There are a few things that could be more accurately emulated on the SNES, but not *much*. 02:58:03 pikhq: such as? 02:58:07 pikhq: That mute-thing strikes me as one. 02:58:15 It would be impossible to perfectly emulate the analogue behaviour of the fast fadeout. 02:58:16 duck hunt controller?? 02:58:28 The Cx4, used by the Megaman X2 and X3, for instance. 02:58:29 cheater99: No, anything that isn't strictly digital. 02:58:35 Is impossible, I think. 02:58:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 02:58:37 elliott: it's just a simple RLC that can be easily emulated 02:58:38 Currently, bsnes uses a very accurate HLE. 02:58:46 and is easily emulated in thousands of existing softwares 02:58:48 cheater99: I don't think a Turing machine can perfectly emulate an analogue sound effect. 02:58:51 cheater99: Note *perfectly*. 02:58:53 Yes, it can do it very well. 02:58:55 But not *perfectly*. 02:59:02 no, not perfectly 02:59:14 cheater99: Thus 100% SNES emulation is impossible with digital computing. 02:59:14 but emulation is different from reproduction 02:59:21 cheater99: bsnes is very much a reproducer. 02:59:24 you mean 100% snes reproduction 02:59:27 emulation is possible 02:59:29 Until recently, the DSPs were likewise. 02:59:29 Yes, also called perfect emulation. 02:59:45 /dev/urandom is a 100% snes emulator, for my emulation goal 02:59:59 cheater99: emulation is not used in that way. 03:00:02 when referring to console emulation. 03:00:06 it is used to mean reproduction. 03:00:12 usually very inaccurate reproduction. 03:00:15 And the ST-0011 and ST-0010 are completely unemulated. 03:00:27 Erm, s/11/18/. 03:00:36 The ST-0011 is partially emulated via HLE. 03:00:50 elliott: i still say the DX 7 should be your goal 03:00:58 or a synclavier 03:01:01 (the fm part) 03:01:04 cheater99: i don't like synths :/ 03:01:08 (the fm part is actually very intricate) 03:01:12 the synclavier is british! 03:01:12 I might emulate an SK-1 :) 03:01:18 you should do it because of that! 03:01:31 it's pretty much a huge computer with sound output 03:02:00 Also, the Satellaview is effectively impossible to emulate. 03:02:05 * elliott listens to Shnabubula's performance of All Blues. 03:02:12 (due to having been unusable for years now) 03:02:17 Wondrful. 03:02:40 http://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sync.jpg 03:02:49 SR 03:02:52 Y TOO BUSY LISTENING TO JAZZ 03:02:54 on the left is a computer 03:03:10 notice huge ribbon cable connecting it to keyboard 03:03:11 the fairlight cmi is insane isn't it 03:03:12 Well, if you have a TARDIs it'd be easy. 03:03:16 TARDIS, rather. 03:03:20 Tards. 03:03:21 Turds. 03:03:23 TURDIS. 03:03:35 In which case you could even get a *dump* of all of the games for it. 03:03:38 http://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/fmsynth.jpg THREE DEE! 03:03:42 (which is likewise impossible) 03:03:54 elliott: meh, the fairlight ain't so hot 03:03:59 pikhq: what games don't exist any more? 03:04:46 elliott: The games were downloaded via satellite and stored on a flash cart. 03:05:06 pikhq: heh 03:05:18 A dump can *only* exist if someone happened to keep it from when it was broadcast. 03:05:35 Also, some of the games actually had voice acting via *live broadcast*. 03:05:45 I have a different kind of emulation idea. You have in the emulator, emulation of various processors, video units, audio units, input units. etc. And then the file it loads indicates which ones are used and what memory mapping and a few other options. 03:05:46 Despite a slow system clock the processor was extremely efficient at moving data around (a one cycle multiply/divide math's co-processor being very advanced for the time) so efficient in fact, that NASA used the computer on board space craft resulting in the processor being classed as classified computer equipment, not to be sold to countries outside the COCAM agreement and no technical details to be distributed outside of the United Sta 03:05:47 tes. NED also developed their own Operating System, Scientific XP/L, again bypassing limitations of available Operating Systems. So with this dedicated processor it was possible to add new hardware as and when it became available, in some cases the additions enhancing the processor by sharing the workload with it. 03:05:57 if that's not worthy of emulation what is 03:05:58 zzo38: bsnes does this. 03:06:09 03:05 pikhq: Also, some of the games actually had voice acting via *live broadcast*. 03:06:12 zzo38: Well, except it only handles the SNES, but hey. 03:06:12 that is amazing. 03:06:15 zzo38: yeah, bsnes does that. 03:06:34 cheater99: http://ns2.opencollective.cc/music/Shnabubula/All+Blues+(VRC6)/ 03:06:38 STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND LISTEN TO THIS 03:06:40 maybe three times 03:06:41 or four 03:06:55 404 Error: Page Not Found 03:06:55 Sorry, we are unable to find the page you've requested. If you've typed the URL yourself, check for any spelling mistakes you might have made. If you've followed a broken link, bla bla bla. Please click back or visit our homepage at 8bc.org. 03:06:59 what 03:07:03 elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Satellaview_broadcasts If it has SoundLink support, it's literally impossible to reproduce the game without a time machine. 03:07:05 oh, bad cp 03:07:11 cheater99: http://8bc.org/music/Shnabubula/All+Blues+(VRC6)/ 03:07:13 there, better now 03:07:24 Even *if* you have the ROM. 03:07:30 miles davis would have approved 03:07:44 elliott: yea it's good 03:07:57 cheater99: have you heard it before or did you make that judgement based on three seconds :-P 03:08:02 I am thinking something a bit different. A more general form. And the loaded file, instead of the ROM file, is a collection file. You then convert it for the official or homebrew game or whatever you run. 03:08:13 elliott: yes 03:08:18 cheater99: which 03:08:38 i heard it before in the normal form.. and i made that judgement based on three seconds 03:08:39 :D 03:09:09 elliott: do you know of the midibox sid? 03:09:27 no, but it's probably worse than e.g. the hardsid. 03:09:32 nope 03:09:35 it's much better 03:09:42 cheater99: What is a midibox sid? 03:09:44 cheater99: what, than the studio edition? 03:09:49 cheater99: http://www.hardsid.com/hardsid_4u.php 03:09:54 I doubt /that/ 03:09:57 it has the best update rate for the sid 03:10:03 cheater99: see above link 03:10:12 cheater99: 8 khz isn't so bad. :p 03:10:23 8 khz is weak 03:10:28 you're weak. 03:10:31 and it has a full user interface 03:10:41 as opposed to hardsid being a non-interactive box 03:10:44 just buy a c64 and wire up data ports to it, it's the only way to get the real sound 03:10:47 where you point and click and go to sleep 03:11:13 # Microsoft Vista compatible 03:11:16 great 03:11:26 i'll use it with my vista! 03:11:28 marketing. 03:11:29 that i don't have. 03:11:36 yeah, shows who they make it for 03:11:37 :p 03:11:54 the midibox sid is compatible with any operating system that can access a UART 03:12:01 can't beat that 03:12:16 and has OSC 03:12:30 cheater99: the UART is just the politically correct version of the LART. 03:12:33 so it is also compatible with any operating system that can somehow communicate with ethernet 03:13:04 LART is a single-board computer (SBC) designed by staff of the University of Delft/Netherlands. The creators advertise complete layout by means of CAD files ... 03:13:08 emulate that! 03:13:20 anyways, the midibox sid is cool 03:13:24 cooler than cakes 03:13:52 and i hung out with the guy who made it at his flat :p we did a rock-out nite with some other dudes 03:14:20 Do you think 31 character for each original and destination word forms is enough for plural making rules? 03:14:56 not if you're talking about airplanes 03:15:14 *airplanae 03:15:18 (remember that volcano?) 03:15:18 *aeroplanae 03:15:30 aeaeroplaenae 03:15:37 elliott: What about airplanes? 03:15:51 cheater99: What does this have to do with airplanes? 03:16:04 æroplænæ 03:16:08 there was a volcano with a long name obscuring flights lately 03:17:06 æρplænæ 03:17:57 elliott: i was right 03:18:03 what 03:18:04 (it's good) 03:18:15 what an achievement 03:18:44 i kno rite 03:19:00 now i want to hear freddie freeloader done like this 03:19:07 cheater99: http://kindofbloop.com/ 03:19:11 cheater99: it's from a whole remake of the album 03:19:12 enjoy 03:19:13 $5 03:19:22 pirating it works but it's kind of a dick since the royalties cost $$$$loads 03:19:28 is $5 some sort of memory address? 03:19:29 brought to you by http://waxy.org/ 03:19:32 cheater99: it's a price. 03:19:44 http://kindofbloop.com/samples/02_freddie_freeloader_sample.mp3 :p 03:20:22 how is flac formed? 03:20:28 ærœplænə 03:20:34 "Kind of Bloop is available for digital download in high-quality MP3 and FLAC format for $5.00, cheap." 03:20:37 cheater99: it's just the sample /shrug 03:20:44 i remember when it was still in Kickstarter phase 03:20:47 elliott: i know, but i need the flac 03:20:49 the royalties cost ridiculous amounts 03:20:55 cheater99: for the _30 second preview_? 03:20:55 haha 03:21:01 cheater99: the All Blues you listened to was mp3. 03:21:02 elliott: of course not 03:21:06 so buy it :P 03:21:14 elliott: they should've made it free 03:21:21 suddenly, no royalties! 03:21:23 cheater99: impossible, with the costs 03:21:24 cheater99: nope 03:21:26 not true 03:21:30 how so 03:21:38 find the blog posts yourself, i'm too lazy 03:21:44 and, wait 03:21:47 what royalties? 03:21:51 it's a new performance 03:21:58 i don't remember exactly. it's stupid music industry bullshit 03:22:00 this is the kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/waxpancake/kind-of-bloop-an-8-bit-tribute-to-miles-davis 03:22:05 you can't own/copyright/patent a MELODY 03:22:07 To create this album, I hope to raise $2,000 to pay royalties, pay the artists, and print CDs. Legally releasing cover songs requires paying mechanical licenses to the song publishers through the Harry Fox Agency, totaling about $420 for every 250 downloads and a $75 processing fee. I'll be using the remainder to print a very limited run of CDs for Kickstarter backers, and split the rest evenly among the five musicians for their pains 03:22:07 taking work. (This is a labor of love for me, so I won't be keeping a dime.) 03:22:08 cheater99: ^ 03:22:09 cheater99: BTW, that was Eyjafjallajökull. 03:22:21 hence, any new performance is a new thing. 03:22:23 cheater99: ^ 03:22:33 cheater99: your opinions are irrelevant in the face of what is actually the case. 03:23:25 * Sgeo hopes that what cheater99 said is true 03:23:25 hm 03:23:33 i'm not fully sure on the legal aspect of this 03:23:37 Sgeo: it is, as demonstrated by my quote, false. 03:23:42 copyright law is fucked up, that is obvious and irrelevant. 03:23:44 If not, I've participated in copyright infringement, as so has AWLD 03:23:45 Odd word construction courtesy of being a fairly conservative North Germanic language. 03:23:47 what is relevant is what is the actual case 03:23:55 Sgeo: OH GOD COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 03:23:56 but i think there's some confusion in that post. 03:23:56 FEEL BAD 03:23:57 FEEL EVIL 03:23:58 YOU ARE THE WORST 03:24:04 cheater99: well, i don't. 03:24:12 elliott, companies should be more careful than individuals 03:24:26 cheater99: andy baio /has/ been at this for _rather_ a long time 03:24:27 elliott: that's ok, since we have separate consciousnae 03:24:43 and can think opposite thoughts. 03:25:08 cheater99: face it, even if it is the case, legally, the agency could sue him off the face of the earth 03:25:10 lawyer costs etc 03:25:55 GAMESTATE RECALCULATION 03:26:38 elliott: i still think eniac in minecraft is yet to be done 03:26:50 that freddie freeloader sample is not interesting at all i fear 03:26:58 it sounds fairly... simple. 03:27:03 Did John Cage use any dynamics in his 4'33" music? 03:27:11 cheater99: 30 seconds != however long freddy freeloader is 03:27:32 cheater99: just checked. you heard a whopping 5% of the track. 03:27:38 yes, but the original had much more depth and wasn't full of shitty little kiddie arpeggios that made no sense 03:27:53 Sounds fine to me. 03:28:07 the other track we have listened had translated the depth much better 03:28:12 It doesn't have to be a 1:1 replica. 03:28:26 Depth is a vague and subjective concept; it seems you are just trying to belittle it without actually making any arguments that it's an inferior work. 03:28:29 no, but 1:00000000000000000000000.1 isn't good either 03:28:38 cheater99: you mean 1:0.1? 03:28:42 not sure why you bothered with those 0s. 03:28:56 Maybe he means s/1:0/1:10/ ? 03:29:07 I doubt it. 03:29:12 Probably 0.0[...]1 03:29:14 it's a subconscious tactic of showing my perceived worth 03:29:24 of that piece of music. 03:29:34 notice very many zeros 03:29:40 Or s/0(0*)\./0.$1/ ? 03:29:41 and one tiny tiny digit one 03:29:59 that... is ridiculous 03:30:03 1:0.000000000000000000001 sure 03:30:05 so as far as in the light of law i only said it's worth only 10 times less 03:30:09 but 1:00000000000000.1 is exactly 0:.1. 03:30:18 your subconscious knows, i really mean zero. 03:30:24 you are full of shit. 03:30:25 YES 03:30:30 that's why i tricked you 03:30:40 cheater99: anyway it's rather pretentious to listen to an entire 11 minute work and then say that a 30 second sample of a 10 minute work is inferior. 03:30:42 because it's exactly 0.1 03:30:45 you have to listen to the entire thing to make that kind of judgement. 03:31:02 elliott: i think being pretentious is what makes us human 03:31:13 you say that only because you are pretentious. 03:31:27 would it be pretentious of me to admit? 03:31:48 i'm not saying the rest of the song must be bad 03:32:05 i'm just saying: the part i heard wasn't translated as well as comparable parts in the other song 03:32:31 now if i had a flac edition of the whole album, that might change my perception completely 03:33:11 seeing as i don't... i'll probably never see the light on the topic of how good the adaptation really is 03:33:58 pikhq: I'm going to cycle-perfectly emulate YOUR CURRENT COMPUTER. 03:34:00 Here is the program: 03:34:05 Run it and it shall be perfect. 03:34:14 cheater99: You could just, you know, spend $5. 03:34:45 that includes a lot of assumptions 03:35:03 that are not true not accordingly to my will or ability 03:35:15 cheater99: Such as? 03:35:16 How do you cite this article? http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Plurals.html I see nothing about a journal or book it is published in. Do you know what journal or book it belongs to? 03:35:30 zzo38: Interestingly, people publish work without it being inside a journal or a book. 03:35:35 zzo38: In this case, it is a "web page". 03:35:37 i don't have a reliable repeatable way of doing the spending 03:35:44 cheater99: does it need to be repeatable? 03:35:50 yes 03:35:57 cheater99: Are you planning on buying the album numerous times? 03:36:12 no, but it needs to because there are other things such that those things are of value $5 03:36:30 cheater99: You're not being pretentious now, just stupid. 03:36:43 i'm just saying i need to be able to buy breakfast too 03:36:52 elliott: Then how can it be cited in the bibliography? 03:36:57 zzo38: However you want. 03:37:07 cheater99: Are you currently out of $5 each time you buy breakfast? 03:37:08 zzo38: look how wikipedia does it!!!! 03:37:14 no, don't 03:37:20 when in doubt, if wikipedia does something, do the opposite 03:37:29 elliott: no, because sometimes i don't buy breakfast 03:37:39 cheater99: but breakfast is a great thing. 03:37:54 elliott: for those who have a repeatable source of $5's 03:38:10 cheater99: Does a repeatable source of $5s not fund your internet? BREAKFAST OR INTERNET: THE SHOWDOWN 03:38:19 pikhq: http://board.byuu.org/images/challenge.jpg BYUU'S FORUM WANTS ME TO DO SIMPLE ALGEBRA AT 3:37 AM WHY DOES HE HATE ME 03:38:20 internets are free 03:38:29 * elliott expert wolfram alpha 03:38:30 cheater99: orly 03:38:34 my $5s are not available during this month or two 03:39:04 Should I include the name of the university in the citation? 03:39:29 if it's a university website 03:39:33 zzo38: I wouldn't. 03:39:36 It's his work, not the uni's. 03:39:58 yeah, if it's a private website don't 03:40:11 But the name of the university is listed at the top of the article. (I already put Damian Conway's name in the citation) 03:40:17 It's a private website that happens to be hosted on a university. :p 03:40:23 zzo38: Yeah, but that's standard practice in "papers" of any sort. 03:40:31 zzo38: No harm in crediting, I suppose, but I think it's purely his work. 03:40:42 Don't bibliography citations usually list the publisher though? 03:40:46 miscrediting citations can be big beef 03:40:49 zzo38: The publisher is himself in this case. 03:40:53 He put the file there. 03:40:55 you don't want to credit someone's work to something else 03:41:04 OK. Then I will just put his name, the title, and the URL. 03:41:05 zzo38: Is the TeXnicard source available? 03:41:08 An Algorithmic Approach to English Pluralization 03:41:08 Damian Conway 03:41:08 School of Computer Science and Software Engineering 03:41:08 Monash University 03:41:08 Clayton 3168, Australia 03:41:13 this is just his contact info, that's all 03:41:19 yeah 03:41:20 zzo38: agreed 03:41:23 the author is the second line 03:41:52 now if it was: 03:42:01 Damian Conway, Evil Overlord 03:42:02 elliott: Yes, so far only incomplete versions on sprunge, but eventually it will be available properly when version 0.1 is complete enough to publish in this way. 03:42:03 An Algorithmic Approach to English Pluralization 03:42:03 University of Buckdoodle, Damian Conway 03:42:04 you'd have to credit that part too 03:42:08 cheater99: finished your sentence for you 03:42:11 then you'd credit the university 03:42:18 cheater99: or even "Damian Conway, University of Nowhere" 03:42:24 zzo38: Can I see the current version, please? 03:42:37 elliott: OK. Just a minute... 03:42:51 elliott: why thank you, that was very nice of you to finish that sentence 03:43:07 this means i can now go to sleep, and you can continue saying things i would say 03:43:51 Hi I'm cheater99 and I kill puppies for fun 03:43:59 and profit 03:44:03 elliott: http://sprunge.us/TKVI 03:44:29 elliott: Any comments to make about it? 03:44:43 let me skim it first :) 03:44:43 those dalmatians will make for a BEAUTIFUL fur!! mwahahahahah! 03:45:07 ok, now i'm off to dream about uranusgirl and silver head 03:46:26 thank you and good night 03:47:08 lol uranusgirl 03:48:48 pikhq: How likely is it that anyone can convince byuu to never use XML again. 03:49:14 elliott: Not very. He wrote a very simple XML parser. 03:49:23 pikhq: But WRONGNESS. 03:49:47 Aside from only handling UTF-8 instead of UTF-8 and UTF-16, it seems to be a correct implementation of *just* XML. 03:50:33 Shame, though, that he couldn't be convinced to use a better scheme instead. 03:50:40 Do you also want to see the current (incomplete) version of the file "plain.cards" (Plain TeXnicard), "texnicard_format.tex" (TeX format file for Plain TeXnicard), or "system_book_conv" (AWK program to compile a book describing the other two files)? 03:51:44 zzo38: plain.cards 03:52:20 elliott: http://sprunge.us/UCBc 03:52:26 thanks 03:53:15 pikhq: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98753-Ultra-Rare-NES-Cartridge-Sells-for-41-000 03:54:25 pikhq: Apparently it'd been dumped before though X-D 03:54:38 [[So ok, I guess this isn't some avid gamer desperately wanting to play the game (the game has been dumped afaik and a NES console + flash cart and/or PC capable of running Nestopia would cost a lot less). 03:54:38 So the most likely reason anyone would buy at that price is because they hope to resell it even higher in a decade or so. At least that's the only "sane" reason I could find. So it's basically game speculation. That or the person(s) who bought this are billionaires and like to waste their money for shits and giggles.]] 03:56:39 elliott: Or it's a collector of some sort. 03:56:49 pikhq: A crazy collector :P 03:56:55 Well, yes. 03:57:04 pikhq: Shit, I'm tempted to get a box professionally printed and sealed now. 03:57:05 You'd have to be if you want, say, the entire NES set. 03:57:31 pikhq: Put a dumped cartridge inside (with professional label etc.), age the box slightly, get it professionally sealed... $41k is mine. 03:57:39 Or the entire US SNES set, like Byuu does. 03:58:48 So crazy. 04:06:19 pikhq: http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=838 Dear god @ during. 04:06:29 Any comment about the TeXnicard files, yet? 04:06:35 zzo38: No. seems good 04:08:58 "Sometimes I wish I had focused on the Sega Genesis instead. They only have one special chip, which was only used by one game :/" 04:09:01 TARGET MARKET 04:09:27 elliott: The Genesis had more than one special chip, they just got released as seperate consoles. :P 04:09:35 Sega CD and 32X. 04:10:16 [[I think it is our very own AamirM who made Regen, which basically what could be called "bgen" (as in, an accuracy focused Genesis/Mega Drive emulator).]] 04:10:17 SHEESH 04:10:18 furrfu 04:10:19 And arguably the Genesis *was* a "special chip" for the Master System. 04:11:08 Do you have any suggestions and/or questions about TeXnicard? (Or about related things?) 04:11:10 AamirM is also working on an N64 emulator. 04:11:34 "And yes, N64 emulation is rather poor and most N64 emulation projects are no longer active. If I had the skills, I'd give it a shot myself, but I'm afraid it's out of my reach. Anyone up for a team effort?" — guess that's happening then. 04:11:36 Except not team. 04:11:40 Anyway, good night. 04:11:42 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:12:13 -!- elliott has joined. 04:12:19 I should get a list of all unregistered one-char domains some time. 04:12:23 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:14:08 elliott: Including unicode or not? 04:14:34 [Oops] 04:15:47 erm - one character domain names that are not registered == roughly all of them 04:15:52 except for two 04:16:00 they stopped registering them 04:17:08 x.org and q.com IIRC 04:17:33 meh - google tells me I'm wrong - there exist 5 04:18:19 variable: Do you have any opinions about TeXnicard? 04:18:40 variable: Also, can they register unicode one character domain names? 04:19:45 TeXnicard? 04:20:32 zzo38, unicode domain names are mapped to punycode 04:20:47 so there are no such thing as "single letter" unicode names 04:40:11 variable: I know that unicode domain names are mapped to punycode. But is there punycode name that represents a single unicode character which are registered? 04:40:22 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:40:48 zzo38, as far as I am aware - yes 04:41:04 And, TeXnicard is,,, you can see the files: http://sprunge.us/TKVI http://sprunge.us/UCBc 04:43:27 GPLv3 :-( ah - its designed to create playing cards? 04:43:59 Yes it is designed to create playing cards. 04:44:20 Is there anything you do not like about GPLv3? 04:45:19 its less free than in it could be and restricts commercial modification (and often therefore support) of the code 04:46:03 How does it restrict commercial modification? 04:46:06 I'll have to play around with the code tomorrow to see what kind of cards I could create :-} 04:46:17 variable: It is incomplete. You cannot create any cards yet. 04:46:32 But you can make opinion of what I have so far. 04:47:43 if a company wants to base a product around the source code - for example MacOS/FreeBSD 04:48:01 they would have to release the source code - which means that they would probably not want to use that project 04:48:12 which means one less contributor (usually) 04:48:37 b) the GPL lies about freedom - making it seem that its a binary thing "either your free or your not" 04:48:50 variable: a) That is the whole *point* of the GPL. 04:49:01 variable: b) How does the GPL do that? 04:49:03 That is the intention. That if someone wants to make something they have to give everyone else same permissions 04:49:11 c) its well documented 04:49:15 re the project 04:49:22 so I'll look at it tomorrow 04:49:35 pikhq, a) which is its weakness - I prefer copyfree licences 04:49:59 b) the GPL claims that it "is free" which makes no sense 04:50:46 zzo38, it is better to allow everyone to use the code - and encourage people to give back instead of force people to give everything which may scare people away 04:51:07 However, it is OK if someone wants to make private modifications for their own use in their company to make cards with it. The GPL does not prevent that. 04:51:34 zzo38, as soon as they distribute it they must provide all the source code 04:51:41 which means they likely won't use it 04:51:50 and thus not help you if they fix anything 04:52:03 variable: This is a fallacious argument. 04:52:09 pikhq, how so? 04:52:18 variable: *Plenty* of companies make use of GPL software and make contributions to it. 04:52:30 pikhq, yes - but plenty more avoid it like the plague 04:52:44 Yes, because of a lack of understanding of how it works. 04:53:00 pikhq, or because it would ruin their business model 04:53:11 if they were BSD licensed there is nothing stopping anyone from contributing in the same way as the GPL 04:53:12 There's a common thought that by using GPL licensed software, you need to release *all source code ever*. 04:53:15 Which is patently false. 04:53:30 pikhq, you must release all source code that is a derivative work 04:53:35 Why yes. 04:53:44 And with the BSD license you don't need to. 04:53:53 And with most software licenses *you can't make derivative works*. 04:53:57 pikhq, so imagine if apple were forced to release *all* of their source code 04:54:04 (ie if FreeBSD were GPLed) 04:54:21 with the BSD licence you are allowed to 04:54:24 Actually, Apple releases the code for everything from BSD... 04:54:29 pikhq, I know 04:54:43 If a company wants to use it to produce their own cards, they do not need to release the source code to the program. The cards are just output. (Actually, I don't know if "plain.cards" changes this? If so, I should add an exception in the "plain.cards" file to ensure you are allowed to produce proprietary cards with this program) 04:54:44 And uses quite a bit of GPL software. 04:54:50 (GCC, WebKit, etc._) 04:54:53 but if it were GPL it would be required to release all of the OS code - not just the kernel parts 04:55:01 No. 04:55:08 Just all the derivative works. 04:55:15 Which they do even when not obligated to. 04:55:24 pikhq, and since linking with inner interfaces could be considered a deriv. work 04:55:37 BTW, merely executing *on* an OS does not a derivative work make. 04:55:49 pikhq, yes, I'm aware 04:55:54 If FreeBSD were GPL, it would change hardly *any* of Apple's behavior at all. 04:56:03 Because they comply already. 04:56:08 pikhq, not at all 04:56:11 By choice. 04:56:32 pikhq, they would be forced to release any and all code that is a deriv. of the FreeBSD work 04:56:40 and would include a large majority of the OS 04:56:45 variable: Funny, they have. 04:56:45 instead of just the darwin kernel 04:57:06 Does "plain.cards" and "texnicard_format.tex" need a exception similar to the font exception? 04:57:29 The only things in OS X without source code available are, in essence, things that support their UI. 04:58:26 Cocoa, Carbon, and the like. 04:58:28 pikhq: Do you know enough about the GPL to know whether or not this exception would be needed? 04:59:26 zzo38: Uh, I think it would need almost precisely the font exception. 04:59:28 pikhq, which in theory could be considered a deriv work 04:59:35 variable: It isn't. 04:59:44 variable: Speaking as someone who has actually read copyright law, it isn't. 05:00:03 zzo38, I think it would require the font exception -- or just use a license that doesn't restrict distribution 05:00:03 Not even remotely. 05:00:31 pikhq, speaking as someone who has read the licence, read copyright law, worked for a copyright attorney, and has two patents.... 05:00:48 And somehow you still don't seem to understand what a derivative work is. 05:00:55 Congrats! 05:01:05 now that the ad hominem is away 05:01:11 pikhq, you seem to not understand 05:01:13 congrats 05:01:24 the GPL defines it in a specific way 05:01:45 Okay, true, the GPLv3 doesn't even use the term "derivative work", it uses something different... 05:02:03 Lesseee. 05:02:07 -!- zeotrope has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 05:02:16 pikhq, the basic idea is that interfacing using "private" methods results in a derivative work nearly always 05:02:48 Of course, "implementation of POSIX" (which is essentially all that OS X gets from the BSDs) is not exactly "private". 05:02:49 pikhq, my point is lets say that what your saying is true 05:03:11 pikhq,and that apple completely complies with the gpl (pretending freebsd was gpl) 05:04:04 the 2-BSD license still results in fewer restrictions than the GPL (and public domain even fewer - but its not legally possible to put something in the public domain) 05:04:21 and there is nothing stopping companies from contributing 05:04:35 ... Yessss, and? 05:04:58 pikhq: But "texnicard.w" should not need the font exception, because to that program, the file "plain.cards" is just data, and "texnicard_format.tex" is data to TeX, and these two files are linked. Am I correct? 05:05:06 Can you really call a modification that nobody else can access "contribution", or even "behavior that ought to be encouraged". 05:05:19 pikhq, wow - you completely misunderstand 05:05:34 zzo38: Hmm. Well. Is any of Texnicard actually going to be output in the resulting .dvi? 05:05:38 variable: How so? 05:07:20 pikhq: No. (Also, the .dvi is not even the final result; the final result are picture files such as .png and so on.) 05:07:26 pikhq, company X decided to make a project. they look for some base to start on. they find G (GPLed) and B (BSDed). They choose to go with B because of its more free licences. They make a product and sell it. they contribute 20% of that code back to B. Now B gets something and G gets nothing. lets pretend B didn't exist and X wanted to have a viable business model. so they decide to write it on their own and not use G. so now G still 05:07:26 gets nothing. 05:07:53 variable: Has this even once happened? 05:08:00 zzo38, re comments on the actual project instead of the license: I'll look at it tomorrow. 05:08:21 Hrm. Actually, no, pretty sure it has. LLVM. 05:08:23 Never mind. 05:08:33 pikhq, yes all the time. most commercial organizations have "copyright training" where they teach you to avoid the gpl 05:08:40 variable: OK. You can look at it tomorrow. (Just remember it is currently incomplete. It does compile and run; but it is incomplete.) 05:08:45 "Bullshit training", you mean. 05:09:15 pikhq, I use the term the companies use. 05:09:28 I use a term that accurately describes it. 05:09:51 Of course, all this comes courtesy of a few simple things... 05:10:01 pikhq, tbh in the end it hardly matters - I just like to get the code out. I dislike spending much time on license debates 05:10:08 *hardly matters to me 05:10:11 Namely: copyright law is far too complex, and it's completely and utterly pointless in the modern day. 05:10:21 Not to mention counterproductive. 05:10:51 pikhq, agreed with the specific reference to software copyright. not saying I disagree about other things - but I don't have the energy right now to discuss :-} 05:11:13 variable: In general, though, it's *certainly* far far too complex, you must agree. 05:11:19 pikhq, yes 05:11:26 "not saying I disagree about other things' 05:11:36 its 1211 am now 05:11:36 Yuh. 05:11:43 I wanted to be asleep 1130 05:11:45 :-} 05:12:18 pikhq, copyright law is insanely complex - and imho outlived its usefulness for certain things 05:12:24 but I really need to get to sleep 05:12:32 お休み！ 05:12:41 !? 05:12:45 Good night! 05:12:58 good night - I enjoyed this conversation 05:13:02 /away 05:17:59 There are a few files in TeXnicard which are public domain, such as "system_book_conv", which is not actually needed to run TeXnicard; what it does is to make book from "plain.cards" and "texnicard_format.tex" files. 05:20:16 Is the extra restriction on the use of the name of TeXnicard is valid? 05:20:39 -!- j-invariant has joined. 05:29:09 -!- Iwnda0 has joined. 05:34:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:43:55 -!- Iwnda0 has left (?). 06:15:39 http://keiapl.info/archive/APLblossom.mp3 06:41:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAX0gJt-aZg fuckin LOL 06:46:23 j-invariant: i have java gtfo >| 06:46:36 hate** 06:46:44 java goes JING JING 06:51:53 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:02:56 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:10:34 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:14:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:17:06 -!- augur has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:33:01 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:34:51 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:44:48 -!- Sasha has quit (*.net *.split). 08:44:51 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 08:44:53 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:06 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:37 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:54 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 08:45:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:03 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:05 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:13 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:31 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:31 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 08:46:39 how come adults can't spell "a lot"? 08:46:41 Do you come across "alot' alot? 08:46:43 more often thannot. 08:48:14 -!- variable has joined. 08:48:14 -!- Leonidas has joined. 08:49:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:49:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:49:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:49:31 -!- Zuu has joined. 08:49:31 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 08:49:31 -!- Ilari has joined. 08:50:13 -!- Sasha has joined. 08:50:13 -!- jix has joined. 08:50:13 -!- quintopia has joined. 08:50:13 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:27:32 j-invariant: For what reason do certain English-speaking adults insist on conforming to and uplifting a certain subset of the prescribed rules of correct English grammar, but still ignore others? Perhaps because English is a living language, and if an entire generation starts spelling "a lot" as "alot", then the correct spelling is "alot". 09:28:44 j-invariant: adults can spell "a lot" perfectly fine 09:29:02 the problem is that "a lot" is a thing you park your car in 09:29:50 "a lot" ~ "alot" as a quantificational element is a single word, not two, in modern english. 09:30:22 so would writing "alot" be an improvement? 09:30:25 furthermore, orthography is purely conventional, and as gregor points out, the current convention in colloquial written english is that the space is entirely optional 09:30:46 in many ways, "a lot" is going the same way as "up on" 09:30:57 woah did this actually happen 09:31:03 and so many other such words in english 09:31:14 do you know any book or whatever that talks about this? 09:31:17 "through out", "none the less", "not with standing" etc etc 09:31:25 "Did this actually happen" // English has no regulatory body, it's happening because people are just doing it. 09:31:29 j-invariant: any good book on descriptive linguistics. 09:31:38 Gregor: even if english DId have a regulatory body, it wouldnt matter 09:31:46 augur: Fair point :) 09:31:49 augur: are there any good ones for a beginner wyouwould recommend? 09:31:52 languages are the original grassroots technology 09:31:54 augur: But thank Jebus it doesn't ;) 09:32:10 j-invariant: for orthography, no, but for language in general, sure 09:32:15 yes 09:32:31 j-invariant: for language in general, check out guy deutscher's the unfolding of language 09:33:27 "above" is the result of successive de-prepositionalizations from "on by up on" (only from back when they were said and spelled "an be uf an" 09:34:11 j-invariant: the moral of that book is that language is a constant tension between expressiveness and conciseness 09:34:55 concision drives us to eliminate parts of the language that don't have any function (in that they don't make the language any more usable) 09:35:30 expressivity drives us to invent new constructs when the language has no technique for conveying quite what we want to convey 09:35:53 so theres a tension between reduction and expansion of the language, and it happens all the time 09:36:28 have any new constructs come up in recorded history? 09:36:42 every day 09:36:56 every new thing you hate is a new construct that might be standard a hundred years from now 09:37:12 usually its new words, since words are for some reason incredibly easy to invent 09:37:17 and usually its certain kinds of words 09:37:30 tho it varies by language which words are so freely invented 09:37:46 what baout a new "thing" like verb/noun/etc 09:37:50 grammatical constructs are harder to change 09:37:58 verbs and nouns are the easiest words to invent 09:38:10 adjectives and adverbs probably next 09:38:11 no I mean like verb/noun/quux 09:38:21 oh, you mean a new category? 09:38:24 yeah 09:38:42 theres debate over whether categories are real in any sense 09:38:54 ah that makes senese 09:38:56 but in general we only see a small number of categories 09:39:40 i mean, most contemporary theories place no real restriction on the number of categories, and we dont have any principled way to explain why we dont see the full range of possibilities 09:40:30 which is to say, there seem to be restrictions, but we dont know what they are beyond some very rough outlines in the theoretically possible category landscape 09:59:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:00:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:02:51 * Sgeo gets desparate 10:02:55 desperate 10:14:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:16:41 augur, are there any languages with more/different categories than English? 10:18:08 Vorpal: maybe 10:18:23 but there generally seems to be a fairly fixed inventory that all languages draw from 10:20:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:20:37 why does my printer only ever decide to take two pages at a time when doing double sided printing. And only in the second "pass" too!? 10:20:45 it never ever do that otherwise 10:20:49 does* 10:27:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:29:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:39:24 -!- WAR has joined. 10:41:47 -!- WAR has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 10:41:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 10:41:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:43:35 Phantom_Hoover, why does the Minecraft window not capture the mouse? 10:43:57 Sgeo_, it does for me. 10:44:15 Is there maybe a bug in the older version that I.. obtained? 10:44:48 Possibly, or it could be something else; if you're not on Windows, we can't help. 10:45:11 I am on Windows 10:45:18 ...trying it before I buy it, so to speak 10:45:31 I am happy to state that the issues I was having in Classic do NOT occur in Alpha 11:03:40 FWIW, if you actually buy it and you want to use mcmap, you'll need to switch to Linux. 11:04:03 Once I buy it, I intend to mostly play on online servers 11:04:32 F11 helps the mouse not be captured, but I don't want to have to go to fullscreen 11:04:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:10:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:16:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:37:17 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:40:39 -!- augur has joined. 11:43:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:44:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:54:10 -!- augur has changed nick to TheDoctor. 11:54:21 -!- TheDoctor has changed nick to augur. 12:02:27 augur, wha? 12:02:34 hey what 12:08:24 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:09:34 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 12:17:39 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:18:04 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:21:14 augur, why did you change your name to TheDoctor and then back again? 12:23:12 -!- Deewiant has joined. 12:24:32 Phantom_Hoover: name antics in another channel 12:24:47 augur, HMMMMMMMMM 12:28:40 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 12:31:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:35:04 Sgeo's dad is periodically rebooting his computer for lulz. 12:41:17 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:44:39 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:51:43 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function. 12:55:59 how is obsidian made? 12:56:11 nooga, water poured onto /still/ lava. 12:56:18 Flowing lava becomes cobblestone. 13:13:00 HAHA' I'VE GOT 5 OBSIDIANS 13:14:37 you mean: how is obsiddian formed 13:15:36 HT 13:15:42 hm 13:15:47 there's lava on obsidian 13:17:57 Phantom_Hoover: what about f x = 2*x 13:18:14 cheater99, that's why I said a -> a. 13:18:25 for any type? 13:18:28 hm 13:18:29 As in, a polymorphic function with no typeclass constraints. 13:19:03 You can demonstrate that id is the only one possible if you let a be the unit type, but it's extending that upwards that I'm having problems with. 13:19:09 of course you can have polymorphic fall-over 13:19:18 in which case your question is easily answered 13:19:49 -!- j-invariant has joined. 13:21:43 Phantom_Hoover: 13:21:57 j-invariant: 13:21:59 in Haskell or SysF ? 13:22:45 -!- sftp has joined. 13:22:55 Erm. Is there a difference in the answer? 13:23:03 well I just mean "in what" 13:26:49 System F, then. 13:27:57 Phantom_Hoover: in that case, it is a (difficult) theorem that every well typed term has a normal form (i.e. you can evaluate everything and it wont loop) 13:28:34 I think it's plausible to enumerate all (one) normal forms of type forall a. a -> a 13:28:56 And in Haskell? 13:28:57 so like \a -> a counts but (\a -> a) (\a -> a) doesn't 13:29:36 undefined :: a -> a is a counterexample 13:34:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:36:47 Phantom_Hoover: you don't buy it?? 13:36:59 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:37:05 Phantom_Hoover: have you seen any proof that simple typed lambda calculus normalizes 13:40:24 # [...]. From reading these comments, it is clear that 13:40:24 # text following a '#' is ignored to the end of the line. 13:40:33 from the top of a config file :D 13:40:40 nice way to put it 13:42:15 :( 13:46:43 j-invariant, zuh. 13:47:16 Erm, OK. Pretending undefined doesn't work? 13:47:24 *exist 13:48:15 Oh, wait. I see what you mean. 14:00:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:01:07 oerjan, hi 14:01:13 hello 14:02:14 elliott: for log reading: I tried that newer version of synergy thingy. Same old bugs: 1) clipboard buggy in various ways 2) altgr key sometimes get stuck when on guest screen. 14:02:29 both still there 14:04:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:04:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:05:35 elliott: there is possibly one bug that is gone, but it is so rare I can't be sure yet. (Caps lock getting suck in different states compared to keyboard led, and different states on the different computers) 14:05:57 that happened like twice in 6 months 14:06:02 -!- elliott has joined. 14:06:43 20:15:47 erm - one character domain names that are not registered == roughly all of them 14:06:53 variable: no, that you can actually register -- there are 100 or so 14:06:56 most are reserved or registered 14:07:44 elliott: know anything about LaRouche youth movement? 14:08:16 j-invariant: LaRouch people are all complete nutcases, as far as i can tell. it is interesting but i have not looked in to it as much as i would like to 14:08:23 j-invariant: why? 14:08:36 yeah that's where I am 14:08:42 I thought you might know more :P 14:08:57 j-invariant: nope :) but wikipedia does! 14:09:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche_and_the_LaRouche_movement 14:09:28 elliott, I believe 1 or 2 letter ones can no longer be registered. Not sure if it was some tlds only, or all. The existing ones were grandfathered. 14:09:40 Vorpal: only some TLDs. 14:09:45 right 14:09:47 Vorpal: you _definitely_ can register them. i looked into thix 14:09:55 elliott, god, I love the LaRouche movement. 14:10:18 They say that the 340Hz A is part of the conspiracy. 14:10:18 Vorpal: for instance I believe that nic.st will sell you a one-char if you give them insane amounts of money 14:10:22 Phantom_Hoover: :D 14:10:26 j-invariant: info! ^ 14:10:51 Er, *440Hz 14:10:56 tell me! 14:11:01 Vorpal: hopefully I will be able to script looking up all the domains to see which ones are free and registerable, filter out those with unreasonable laws (*cough* .ly must follow sharia law *cough*), and then filter out those with insane prices 14:11:15 elliott, anyway, as I said in log. the new synergy thingy did not help at all 14:11:20 ha. 14:11:20 I don't know more about it than that, just that they want to go back to 432Hz A tuning. 14:11:21 *ah. 14:11:33 http://www.nic.st/twoletter/name/w 14:11:44 hmm 14:11:48 anyway x.st is registered 14:12:18 14:12:20 php infinite loop 14:12:25 elliott: doesn't crash my php 14:12:27 RELEVANT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YDVog236Bc 14:12:38 elliott, if only I knew how to reproduce these bugs. It is pointless to say "alt-gr sometimes get stuck" or "sometimes you get ghost pastes in gtk programs on the 'interactive' machine". 14:13:07 j-invariant: aww, not anagolf's either 14:13:18 [[This achievement by an amateur chorus would have been virtually impossible if not for [...] performing the work in the scientifically correct musical tuning of C=256 Hz, rather than the prevalent, anti-musical and vocally destructive tuning of the Romantic School's A=440 or higher (see below).]] 14:13:28 SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT 14:13:28 oh wait no it does! 14:13:31 I was doing it wrong 14:13:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:14:06 elliott: I trsied that out earlier when I read hte article but I must have done it wrong 14:14:15 I don't know more about it than that, just that they want to go back to 432Hz A tuning. <-- err, as far as I know you generally try to tune to match what the music was written for. At least in professional orchestras. 14:14:40 doesn't work on 5.3.3 here 14:14:46 Vorpal, I think they just want *everything* tuned to 432Hz A. 14:14:51 Phantom_Hoover, this might include non-equal temperament and so on 14:14:56 Phantom_Hoover, that's just silly 14:15:05 OH MAN YOU THINK SO? 14:15:14 SO WEIRD I WOULDN'T HAVE CALLED THEM SILLY YOU'RE A VISIONARY 14:15:17 Phantom_Hoover, if you are doing it professionally you tune for whatever the music was written for 14:15:45 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:15:47 [[The Schiller Institute, which represents these ideas internationally, has become known for its initiative to lower the international standard musical pitch to middle-C=256 cycles per second (corresponding to approximately A=430 to 432), in order to preserve the human voice and to return the performance of Classical music to that of the composers' poetic intentions.]] 14:15:57 PRESERVE THE HUMAN VOICE 14:16:21 variable: plz don't debate gpl/bsd here, it has been done 5 billion times before 14:16:28 we're above such jihads 14:16:54 Phantom_Hoover, well if the music was written for that then it should be played like that. If it was written for something else then do as it's author intended! 14:16:56 Because we all know that a 1% increase in frequency wreaks havoc on the vocal chords. 14:17:05 http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/images2010/Obama_BP.gif 14:17:12 variable: p.s. it's irrelevant because selling data is a broken business model only held in place by illogical regulations that should be abolished, which would conveniently make the GPL and BSD identical in making no restrictions whatsoever 14:17:15 BP employee of the month LOL 14:17:39 Phantom_Hoover, also, why do they centre around vocals? Don't they care at all about purely instrumental music!? 14:17:41 14:05 < JohnFlux> Roger Penrose, as a kid, was dropped down a grade at school 14:17:41 for doing so badly at math 14:17:41 14:06 < j-invariant> and now he thinks godels incompleteness theorem means that 14:17:44 j-invariant: heh 14:17:44 the human brain is something more than a turing machine - 14:17:48 guess some things never change, huh? 14:17:50 ^ nobody in #physics liked my joke 14:18:08 shouldn't that be 14:18:10 ##physics 14:18:12 ***8troll#Y% 14:18:29 ##physics IGNORED my brilliant idea. 14:18:38 j-invariant, GRIND THEM INTO THE DUST 14:18:48 MORE RELEVANT STUFF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiller_Institute 14:18:56 Phantom_Hoover, what was that "brilliant idea"? 14:19:05 Vorpal, Hawking generator. 14:19:21 Phantom_Hoover, err. What would that be 14:19:23 21:00:31 pikhq, speaking as someone who has read the licence, read copyright law, worked for a copyright attorney, and has two patents.... 14:19:28 variable: software patents by any chance? 14:19:30 Phantom_Hoover, a generator of physicists in wheelchairs? 14:19:35 Before I discovered that some bastards had copied it, gone back in time and written a paper on it. 14:19:59 a generator that produced hawkings would be awesome 14:20:04 [[The Schiller Institute employs a large set of arguments for this tuning, from historical accuracy to claims that this is how the universe is tuned, with references to Johannes Kepler's treatise on the harmony of the world, where he proposes the notion that the ordering of planetary orbits is based on harmonics and the relationships among the Platonic solids.[23]]] 14:20:11 Kepler's theory of the world. 14:20:16 There is no higher comedy. 14:20:17 weird I was just about to paste that exact quote 14:20:23 21:04:04 the 2-BSD license still results in fewer restrictions than the GPL (and public domain even fewer - but its not legally possible to put something in the public domain) 14:20:33 variable: it is in many countries. don't be so US-centric. 14:20:34 ..and say that Kepler himself knew this theory was slightly off and throw it out 14:20:35 elliott, HIS MOTHER! 14:20:49 j-invariant: :D 14:20:54 j-invariant, he clearly knew it was crap, since it requires circular orbits to work. 14:21:04 meh, that doesn't sound as good asas "YOUR MOTHER". 14:21:06 as* 14:21:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:21:55 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function. 14:22:10 that is parametricity 14:22:23 21:07:26 pikhq, company X decided to make a project. they look for some base to start on. they find G (GPLed) and B (BSDed). They choose to go with B because of its more free licences. They make a product and sell it. they contribute 20% of that code back to B. Now B gets something and G gets nothing. lets pretend B didn't exist and X wanted to have a viable business model. so they decide to write it on their own a 14:22:23 nd not use G. so now G still 14:22:23 21:07:26 gets nothing. 14:22:24 parametricity, awesome word 14:22:25 unfortunately, as there is no such thing as a monopoly on copying non-scarce data, X's hilariously bad business model nets them nothing and they go out of business before they even realise that the GPL has no legal standing. a sad story! 14:22:26 * Vorpal googles it 14:22:30 Oh wait, that's just in reasonable world. 14:22:50 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function. 14:22:55 j-invariant: weren't you talking about that 14:22:57 theorems just from the types 14:23:02 That's what prompted it. 14:23:02 elliott: SHEESH 14:23:10 oerjan: sheesh what 14:23:11 Phantom_Hoover: right 14:23:13 elliott: and have you installed uAgda yet? 14:23:20 Phantom_Hoover: well f can't inspect the value because it's polymorphic 14:23:27 j-invariant: no, i had to reinstall ghc. 14:23:30 it holds perfectly for system F, and breaks down partially for haskell because of nontermination and seq 14:23:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:23:40 oerjan: haskell is not a useful language to prove things about :) 14:23:42 elliott, yes, but I mean an actual, rigorous *proof*. 14:23:55 Phantom_Hoover: probably in uagda :} 14:23:59 14:23 < oerjan> it holds perfectly for system F, and breaks down partially for haskell because of nontermination and seq 14:24:02 haahaa 14:24:03 elliott: well someone _did_ write a paper about how much parametricity still holds in haskell 14:24:05 http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/revolution.html 14:24:11 "PARTIALLY" 14:24:15 The website of the crackpots itself. 14:24:47 Phantom_Hoover: it's a power of two, i like it 14:25:05 Phantom_Hoover: basically parametricity gives you for f : a -> a that f . g = g . f for any g whose type fits. then put g = const x for any x 14:25:11 elliott, yes, but that's where the non-crazy arguments end. 14:25:14 *f :: a -> a 14:25:18 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/2007/historic_videos.html 14:25:23 VIDYAS 14:26:02 "Order Verdi pitch tuning forks" I KNEW THEY WERE SELLING SOMETHING 14:26:11 01:27:32 j-invariant: For what reason do certain English-speaking adults insist on conforming to and uplifting a certain subset of the prescribed rules of correct English grammar, but still ignore others? Perhaps because English is a living language, and if an entire generation starts spelling "a lot" as "alot", then the correct spelling is "alot". 14:26:21 Gregor: Um, excuse me, the alot is used when referring to the alot. http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html 14:26:27 Gregor: a lot is quantification. 14:26:29 Duh. 14:27:18 beh 14:27:33 i thought i can make a tunnel for lava to flow 14:27:49 nooga, you can but be careful of burns. It need to slow downwards though 14:27:50 and take flowing lava from the lake to light my cave 14:27:52 nooga: your addiction is inevitable, buy it so you can play on our server :p 14:28:10 nooga, we have a skyway! 14:28:19 elliott, your argument made no sense wrt. "alot". He just claimed that language changes over time. 14:28:31 Hey, the skyway is actually secure on non-peaceful mode. 14:28:34 Vorpal: alot and a lot mean two different things 14:28:38 Vorpal: the alot is an animal: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html 14:28:47 Vorpal: a lot means "a lot". 14:28:53 elliott, ever heard of homonyms? :) 14:29:00 Vorpal: WHOOOOOOOSHTUPID 14:29:09 neither whoosh nor stupid seemed to cover it there 14:29:13 so i decided to innovate 14:29:27 whoopid 14:29:29 elliott, and yes it is an invented animal. But sure. Why not. 14:29:30 oerjan: Innovation in Puns medal, Missing the Point division plz? 14:29:51 02:02:51 * Sgeo gets desparate 14:29:51 02:02:55 desperate 14:29:58 not so desparate that you won't correct your spelling i see 14:30:17 02:44:48 Possibly, or it could be something else; if you're not on Windows, we can't help. 14:30:19 We can't? 14:30:22 Don't you mean if you _are_ on Windows. 14:30:31 03:03:40 FWIW, if you actually buy it and you want to use mcmap, you'll need to switch to Linux. 14:30:31 03:04:03 Once I buy it, I intend to mostly play on online servers 14:30:32 hmm 14:30:34 Yes, that's what I meant. 14:30:35 Sgeo: mcmap works only on online server. 14:30:35 s 14:30:45 elliott, UNTRUE! 14:30:52 lava floows in my tunnel but the cave isn't so deep 14:30:53 Phantom_Hoover: well, it only works on SMP servers. 14:30:54 It can work on LOCAL servers as well! 14:30:57 and playing an SMP server locally would suck 14:31:01 since you can just give yourself shit 14:31:02 also bugs 14:31:18 Sgeo: and mcmap is incredibly useful on our server since we often just give a coordinate pair to //goto. so be prepared to boot to ubuntu. 14:31:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:31:28 elliott, in any case you are the one being silly here. First for trying to appeal to authority (which isn't even one really!) and second for trying to use that as an argument where it didn't fit. 14:31:44 oerjan: please, you need to invent the Nuclear Whoosh so I can use it on Vorpal 14:31:53 oerjan: he is the Hiroshima to my desire to bomb japs 14:31:59 (best analogy? no, GREATEST) 14:32:14 elliott, was it supposed to be a joke? Aren't they supposed to be funny. I think I remember you claiming that. 14:32:38 Vorpal: are you trying to start like a daily game where we each annoy the other into ignoring them for a period of time 14:32:55 elliott, no. But that's an interesting idea. 14:32:57 I'll keep score! 14:33:08 ah. it won't work because my first and last ignore will be permanent. 14:33:11 (Being a neutral 3rd party.) 14:33:18 Phantom_Hoover: neutral :P 14:33:45 Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure I'm playing. I'm far too nice to be good at it :P 14:33:56 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 14:34:08 Vorpal, you're better at it than you think. 14:34:12 Phantom_Hoover, good, you realised that wasn't meant seriously :) 14:34:13 *Much* better. 14:34:37 also I hate this weather 14:34:40 i'm made out of a unicorn that poops flowers and niceness. 14:34:45 1 dm snow this afternoon 14:35:01 i'm actually inside snow now 14:35:05 we don't have doors in my country 14:35:22 05:18:14 cheater99, that's why I said a -> a. 14:35:29 Phantom_Hoover: you should probably say forall a. a -> a 14:35:37 only haskell lets that kind of implicit shit fly >:) 14:35:38 ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 14:35:39 well, and ML 14:35:43 but it says it as 'a 14:35:47 so it's quite unambiguous 14:35:51 The snow is all gone here. 14:35:51 I was out in car today. Had to stop a few times because the windshield wipers froze. Fiat really isn't made for this kind of winters. 14:36:03 Fiats* aren't* 14:36:05 i just burt myself in the lava that i invited to my cave 14:36:11 Phantom_Hoover, lucky you 14:36:13 and all my possesions 14:36:33 nooga, should have put glass in first 14:36:39 nooga, and had a safety water pool 14:37:24 Phantom_Hoover, official snow depth is at 32 cm. Though it is a fair bit from here. 14:37:43 nooga: did you have lava? 14:37:45 erm 14:37:46 nooga: armour 14:37:57 but they only measure it in a few places 14:37:58 nooga: also ignore Vorpal's advice, just stuff valuable stuff into chest before working with lava 14:38:16 elliott, my advice was good. Having a water pool to put out the fire is a good idea 14:38:21 and a bucket of water in a quick slot 14:38:26 more trouble than it's worth 14:38:28 usually 14:38:30 bucket sure 14:38:31 anything else meh 14:38:43 besides after a point dying is preferable 14:38:52 e.g. you're on fire. you have a diamond pickaxe 14:38:58 do you spend the time throwing the pickaxe away from fire 14:39:03 or trying to save yourself possibly failing and losing it? 14:39:38 elliott, you make sure to always be above the lava level when working with it. And there being a way to get out if you fall. 14:39:48 Vorpal: you haven't answered my q 14:39:49 and water pools are still useful 14:40:01 ugh, deewiant expressed is lagged beyond usability. 14:40:05 *express 14:40:05 elliott, actually I'm not sure. I would safe myself since I have diamond armour too. 14:40:14 elliott, no time to throw it all the safety 14:40:29 * elliott falls down an unloaded chunk error, with cows, while moving forwards somehow, in a minecart 14:40:32 Vorpal: you didn't get rid of the armour before working with lava? 14:40:34 clever. 14:41:24 elliott, well, if I work with lava sure. But then I make sure to take security precautions such as being able to walk out the lava area if I fall in, so I don't get stuck unable to get out 14:41:44 elliott, the other case when you could hit lava is mining, and then I wear armour of course 14:41:51 in case of pits or whatever 14:42:39 i think i will move myself 14:42:47 elliott, so far I only fell into lava once in minecraft on single player. And that was in the beginning, I had stone tools only still back then 14:43:01 nooga: there is lava everywhere at low levels btw. 14:43:14 indeed. And sometimes at higher levels 14:43:20 nooga, last I checked chests didn't burtn 14:43:22 burn* 14:43:29 yea 14:43:33 but i don't have much 14:43:36 some gold, one diamond 14:43:40 200 redstone 14:43:51 and i think i'm bored with this enormous cave 14:44:14 is there a video of bees building a honeycomb? 14:44:19 i can take everything and find another place 14:44:21 nooga, mhm. If you find a large floating island you could build a cottage on top (they are rarely large enough even for that, let alone anything larger) 14:44:40 elliott, btw about language change. Do you say "a newt" or "an ewt"? 14:44:52 an ewt 14:45:03 elliott, at least you are somewhat consistent then! :D 14:45:12 nooga: you can ditch redstone generally 14:45:17 nooga: it's slow to mine and basically worthless 14:45:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:45:32 elliott, well a few are useful to have around, for the occasional circuit 14:45:47 but circuits... 14:45:50 personally I don't mine it actively, but if I need to mine it because it is in my way then I put it in a chest 14:46:00 nooga: only mine it if you need it :P 14:46:03 it won't go away 14:46:03 nooga, yeah. If you have it, don't throw it away 14:46:09 indeed 14:46:12 but don't mine it actively unless you need it 14:46:20 i just mean when mining you can ignore it most of the time 14:46:42 elliott, quite, except when it is in your path and you are digging a supposedly straight tunnel. 14:47:23 elliott, do you use a minecart system to get around your single player world btw? 14:47:42 Vorpal: i don't have an active single player world 14:47:46 elliott, ah 14:47:49 especially since the files are on the other box 14:47:53 for my inactive one :D 14:47:54 ah right 14:48:14 elliott, rsync them. that is what I do between my thinkpad and my desktop 14:48:45 hm i should build a boat 14:49:11 Vorpal: no, i don't plan to use the old laptop all that much now 14:49:13 maybe it can be a server 14:49:49 nooga, build when needed. They break so easily it is pretty pointless to build one and expect it to be there next time. Some animal could walk into it the wrong way so it gets pushed into a stone wall or whatever. Happens a lot 14:50:05 elliott, well having a backup on another system is always nice 14:50:53 elliott, also laptop as server is probably not such good idea. laptop drives are made for lots of starts/stops, not for long continuous operation. 14:51:12 such a* 14:51:13 meh, who cares, it's quiet and small :) 14:51:14 variable: software patents by any chance? --> no; I am NOT getting into the rest of the conversation 14:51:30 variable: >:) 14:51:41 variable: if we're going to have a holy war it can at least be in less-explored territory 14:52:01 elliott, emacs vs vi ? 14:52:07 elliott, what about a coq vs. agda flamewar? 14:52:08 :-} 14:52:46 How do I parse command line arguments in Haskell ? 14:52:57 variable: there is a System.Arguments I think 14:53:25 Vorpal: but they're not even the same thing :) 14:53:30 variable: System.Environment 14:53:36 do args <- getArgs; ... 14:53:38 args is then [String] 14:53:51 ah getArgs from System.Environment 14:53:57 elliott, are vi and eamcs really the same thing though? 14:53:59 variable: emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden 14:54:03 variable: vile vs. nedit would be fun 14:54:05 it also has GetOpt 14:54:12 System.Console.GetOpt 14:54:18 elliott, ed vs. TECO? 14:54:35 Vorpal: teco wins obviously, speaking as someone who has edited with both 14:54:36 emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden <--- yet nobody seems to have got anywhere..? 14:54:42 elliott, icewm vs dwm ? 14:54:51 elliott, you used teco? 14:55:28 go meta: flamewar vs. not-having-a-flamewar 14:55:59 Vorpal: yes, i've used teco, it's nice 14:56:03 lol 14:56:15 elliott, really? Huh. 14:56:20 j-invariant: I like ais' statement -- the kind of people you get in here are more likely to use either both emacs and vi, or neither 14:56:39 ais ? 14:56:43 Vorpal: yes, I mean if you showed a dump of all the keys you put into emacs it'd look like line noise too but it's actually fun to use 14:56:46 variable, ais523 14:56:49 variable: ais523, one of our top actives 14:56:52 not as much recently though 14:56:58 elliott, hm 14:57:01 http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html this guy :-P 14:57:19 THE BEARD 14:57:22 note: site is shameless wolfram self-promotion crap 14:57:23 IT IS SO RIDICULOUS 14:57:32 Beardiculous. 14:58:01 actually today I used... emacs, kate, nano. Not vi though. While I have nothing against vi as such, I just can't get used to the split command/editing mode concept. 14:58:33 as for vim, all I can say is that I looked at vimscript and concluded that while elisp is not great for a lisp, it is still better than vimscript. 14:58:33 Vorpal, exactly 14:58:45 variable: software patents by any chance? --> no; I am NOT getting into the rest of the conversation <-- or else he'll have to use his patented death ray 14:58:54 oerjan, sshhh 14:59:09 oerjan: *patented death ray control software 15:00:24 this is interesting, Kepler has a different theory about snowflake formation than me 15:00:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:02:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:03:51 j-invariant: lol 15:05:10 hm doesn't that apply to a lot of old science. The best fitting theory changes over time as new discoveries are made and so on. 15:05:26 I mean, what is so interesting about this difference in particular? 15:06:39 j-invariant, ^ 15:06:59 kepler is right about everything 15:07:02 C=256hz qed beyotches 15:08:44 elliott, so what about non-European music? 15:09:16 is it safe to jump to the water from a great height? 15:09:24 nooga, how deep is the water 15:09:30 Vorpal: 256 fucking hz 15:09:34 nooga: 2 deep or more, yes 15:09:34 few boxes 15:09:40 1 square, no 15:10:07 nooga, 2 or deeper should be safe. But I found that sometimes 3 or deeper is needed. I presume due to lag in SMP but I haven't played much single player lately 15:10:24 I love how NOBODY HAS RESPONDED TO MY UBUNTUFORUMS THREAD AT ALL. 15:10:35 In fact it has been pushed off the front page. 15:10:39 ubuntu forums are useless.... 15:10:46 elliott, ubuntu. What do you expect. 15:10:49 j-invariant: less useless than #ubuntu. 15:10:53 repost it to all the forums :P 15:10:53 Vorpal: less useless than #ubuntu. 15:10:57 well sometiems good stuff comes up in google 15:11:06 j-invariant: googled to hell and back for this already :/ 15:11:12 and i'm not about to go for linuxquestions or something that's even worse 15:11:22 what is the problem? (..I don't know anything about this stuff :/) 15:11:26 elliott, you think you've got it bad? 15:11:49 *Noöne* has any helpful advice for me on this graphics issue. 15:11:58 elliott, well yeah. But that is like saying falcon is better than lolcode. (note: I do not know the sorting order of badness here, just that both are very bad) 15:12:09 j-invariant: how do i make a macbook air boot a normal usb drive formatted like the ubuntu download instructions tell me to with ubuntu on it; googling suggests that macs dont like to do it but this appears to be false; the fedora guys seem to think you need a gpt partition table and an hfs partition; but apparently there are success stories with using those instructions to boot ubuntu off a usb stick on a mac 15:12:13 so I have NO FUCKING CLUE 15:12:23 Vorpal, LOLCODE is quite a nice language if you ignore everything before the AST. 15:12:41 *quite a horrible language 15:12:43 elliott, maybe it differs between different macs? 15:12:48 elliott, firmware versions or whatever 15:12:50 It uses the implicit result of the last statement to work out conditionals. 15:12:52 Vorpal: Doubtful. 15:12:54 elliott: I was able to boot mac os x off a USB but not ubuntu 15:13:00 j-invariant: heh... 15:13:10 elliott, is bootcamp installed? I presume it is? 15:13:23 Vorpal: as i have told you countless times before, "boot camp" is a marketing name that means nothing. 15:13:26 elliott: so you might have to burn some CDs to do it - and it takes a lot of testing to find out which CD works etc .. 15:13:34 Vorpal: it is an EFI update which adds bios emulation, and an OS X tool to download windows drivers and partition the disk. 15:13:47 elliott, told me once afaik. And I meant the EFI upgrade in question 15:13:53 every mac since it came out comes with the EFI update and the tool, however i have not used the tool as it will only create two partitions 15:13:57 well resize one and create one 15:14:03 right 15:14:08 j-invariant: CDs would make it trivial, but I don't have an optical drive 15:14:14 -!- cheater99 has joined. 15:14:17 oh O_o 15:14:20 j-invariant: and Airs can only boot with the Steve Jobs Approved(TM) SuperDrive. which costs £60. 15:14:27 :S 15:14:28 that sucks 15:14:31 so i kind of want to get usb working :-P 15:14:35 I'm sure I can it'll just be a pain 15:14:40 that's what you get when you buy Apple... 15:14:43 infinite pain 15:14:51 I thought someone figured out how to get ubuntu on the macbook air 15:14:58 or maybe it was pro 15:15:03 j-invariant: oh they have 15:15:06 they say "use a superdrive" 15:15:10 Heh. 15:15:12 oh okay 15:15:15 or "follow the instructions for usb on the download page" 15:15:17 see!! I told y 15:15:17 Can Macs even boot flash drives? 15:15:20 (the latter i have tried and it didn't work) 15:15:22 Phantom_Hoover: yes 15:15:30 HMMMM 15:15:30 but theydont like doing it :) 15:15:35 Ah. 15:15:57 elliott, what happens instead of booting it? 15:16:04 elliott, error? just booting normal? 15:16:30 "So after examining all the ideas that came into my head I conclude thus: the cause of the six-sided shape of a snowflake is none other than that of the ordered shapes of plants and of numerical constants; and since in them nothing occurs without supreme reason--not, to be sure, such as discursive reasoning discovers, but such as existed from the first in the Creator’s design and is preserved from that origin to this day in the wonderful nat 15:16:55 Vorpal: when i hold down option it just shows my drive and the partition i have with i think a grub floppy image on 15:16:57 Vorpal: no usb 15:17:05 HUHUH 15:17:11 elliott, does it show the mac os x usb stick if you insert that instead? 15:17:30 Vorpal: the one it came with? i'm sure it does 15:17:35 haven't actually tested it, but yes, it will 15:17:42 it can read USBs perfectly fine 15:17:42 i've got a great settlement in a hanging cliff, on a remote island 15:17:44 it just doesn't like this one 15:17:48 I think i might need gpt/hfs ... but 15:17:53 the os x usb instructions on ubuntu.com 15:17:57 suggest otherwise :-/ 15:18:15 hm 15:18:33 elliott, loadlin for OS X? I'm sure it is possible with a driver of some sort. 15:18:40 dear god no 15:18:57 elliott, it is a journaled fs, you have nothing to worry about ;) 15:19:04 it would probably be possible to make the install CD boot off a /partition/ if i extract it and hook all the bootloaders up and kernel params and stuff 15:19:07 and rely on BIOS emulation to go properly 15:19:09 but it'd be a pain 15:19:12 also, i'd have to do it on the install partition 15:19:22 because the swap and shared ones are partitions 4 and 5 IIRC 15:19:26 so i don't think you can boot from them 15:19:28 well maybe swap 15:19:41 although if i put grub on the main ubuntu partition 15:19:44 elliott, can't you boot from any partition number with gpt? 15:19:47 and used it to boot the 4th or 5th partition... 15:19:47 anyway 15:19:53 Vorpal: not with bios emulation i don't think 15:19:56 when i select one it just does the 3rd 15:20:00 elliott, hm. 15:20:02 which is presumably expected to have a bootloader for the rest 15:20:07 anyway i'd rather just get usb working 15:20:16 i half-suspect it might just be that the mac doesn't like that usb stick in particular :D 15:20:24 but it can read it in os x and stuff... 15:20:37 elliott, that sounds weird. Maybe it doesn't have the approved-by-jobs bit set? 15:20:56 elliott, if it can only use one specific cd drive I mean 15:21:06 elliott, then it is possible the same could apply to usb sticks 15:21:14 Vorpal: i doubt it since other people have reported success 15:21:30 elliott, with the same generation of macbook air? 15:21:37 yes. 15:21:39 hm 15:22:00 strange indeed 15:22:11 i wonder what the rules for bumping are on ubuntuforums, and how much they'll yell at me if i violate them 15:25:20 "Programming language design has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable software to blue-collar workaday programmers." 15:25:44 elliott, err. what. 15:25:48 that made very little sense. 15:25:52 The foundations of mathematics has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable theories to blue-collar workaday mathematicians. 15:26:08 (first quote from http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011/01/minimalism.html, latter my own mockery) 15:27:42 I just cannot understand that sort of thing 15:28:10 j-invariant: either he considers the stdlib axiomatic, or he thinks that people run around with different incompatible stdlibs. well ok you do but nobody else does :) 15:28:37 it's surprising how much of an antiacademic sentiment exists in programming 15:28:44 j-invariant, antiïntellectualism seems rife in "practical" programming... 15:28:46 I use the same standard library as everyone else that uses a good one 15:28:48 i mean, aren't we meant to be above that? 15:29:02 we're (meant to be) competent thought worker engineers 15:29:09 so why does everyone shit on theory? 15:29:22 programmers are idiots 15:30:23 Well, that's because the non-idiots have better things to do. 15:30:34 "Technically, SML'97 as defined in the Definition requires only a minimal initial basis, which, while including the types int, real, char, and string, need have no operations on those base types. Hence, the only observable output of an SML'97 program is termination or raising an exception." 15:30:40 elliott: what he means is that languages should come with frameworks 15:30:48 and huge libs 15:31:00 cheater99: no, he means that languages should be perl. 15:31:09 perlol 15:31:10 because all he does is advocate perl. all day. on reddit. 15:31:27 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/ 15:31:32 i installed a package that was dependent on some perl bs the other day 15:31:33 I rest my csae 15:31:54 it said "indexing perl manpages, this could take a while" 15:32:09 after 10 hours it wasn't done. i straced it, and noticed it's opening every single file on my hard drive. 15:32:09 j-invariant: ugh no i hate that site it's the only one worse than stack overflow 15:32:10 :D 15:32:19 cheater99: why did you leave it 10 hours. 15:32:38 when i saw it opening /bin/ksh i knew it was doing something bad 15:32:57 elliott: i couldn't be bothered touching some sort of perl disaster 15:33:04 what do you have against ksh :| 15:33:07 elliott: and besides i have enough cores. 15:33:11 it's the best worst shell 15:33:16 elliott: nothing, it's just not a perl manpage 15:33:22 cheater99: but it COULD be :D 15:33:25 a self-extracting perl manpage 15:33:31 documenting the "ksh" function 15:33:55 if you filter the ksh binary for readable characters, it's both a perl module and a manual for it 15:34:15 * elliott strings /bin/ksh 15:34:18 "For example, consider perhaps the ultimate counter example of minimalism in programming language design. PHP's multiple searching functions differ in searchtype( $needle, $haystack ) and search_type( $haystack, $needle ) and searchType( $neestack, $haydle ) and other permutations—and these are core language features." 15:34:18 ))++++////33337777777>>>>BBBEEEHHHKKKNNNQQQQUUUUUUUUUU 15:34:24 this makes no sense 15:34:25 yup, perl 15:34:33 they are just procedures, you could add them to scheme 15:34:41 cdefbghijkl+m,*n !"#$%&'()opqrstuGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`vwxyaz-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEF{|}~ 15:34:43 i sense a table :D 15:34:49 o 15:34:49 m 15:34:50 f 15:34:51 g 15:34:53 fffffff 15:34:55 UUUUUUU 15:34:57 --strings /bin/ksh 15:35:20 not the omfg part that is 15:35:23 just th efu 15:35:26 *the fu 15:36:10 ugh elliott I hate stuff like this 15:36:18 I don't even know what he's trying to say but it's wrong 15:36:24 hehe :/ 15:36:35 I wish people just wouldn't write stuff 15:37:07 if you can't understand it you've never used php 15:37:09 which is good. 15:37:29 i hereby approve osmose as a good sms emulator 15:37:33 --strings /bin/ksh <-- well it is based on a heuristic. A very simple one. Just find printable chars. On each line print as long lengths of these are possible. 15:38:08 elliott: what point is he trying to make 15:39:01 j-invariant: no idea 15:39:09 Vorpal: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU 15:39:19 how do people hone this ability of just write absolute shit 15:40:13 strings on random large program in /usr/bin have things like: 15:40:16 fffff. 15:40:16 AVAUATUSH 15:40:16 UUUUUUU 15:40:21 Why doesn't strings at least look for null-termination? 15:40:26 AVAUATUSH! 15:40:35 Vorpal has finally cracked. 15:40:43 * Phantom_Hoover joins in 15:40:47 Phantom_Hoover: POSIX actually says it can 15:40:50 Phantom_Hoover: but most implementations don't 15:40:56 to catch, uh, non-C software! 15:41:01 IÄ! IÄ! CTHULHU FTAGN 15:41:09 Er, *FHTAGN 15:41:10 Phantom_Hoover, a lot of strings are not null-terminated outside the C world 15:41:16 Phantom_Hoover: (possibly because posix requires you to implement a flag that doesn't check for any kind of termination, so it's less work :)) 15:41:29 although gnu strings is, surprise surprise, SUPA ADVANCE: 15:41:30 elliott, a lot of UUUUUUU in lots of binaries. Maybe some sort of padding or something that is generated by some tool? 15:41:31 The options to strings(1) are: 15:41:31 -a This option causes strings to look for strings in all sections 15:41:31 of the object file (including the (__TEXT,__text) section. 15:41:31 Which flag? 15:41:36 Vorpal: probably 15:41:44 Phantom_Hoover: well it's meant to be -a. 15:42:06 * Phantom_Hoover still views GNU true as the best programming joke EVER. 15:42:21 Phantom_Hoover: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/strings.html 15:42:24 well 15:42:25 -a 15:42:25 Scan files in their entirety. If -a is not specified, it is implementation-defined what portion of each file is scanned for strings. 15:42:28 ok so it's not quite that 15:42:38 incidentally gnu strings doesn't have -t. 15:42:47 so technically ... OS X doesn't actually count as certified Unix 15:42:57 except i guess they're probably quite relaxed about all the fiddly command line flags : 15:42:58 :P 15:43:09 0:55 push %rbp 15:43:11 or the machine was fitted with a special POSIX compliamt command set 15:43:11 elliott, that is U 15:43:14 Vorpal: heh 15:43:15 as far as I can tell 15:43:29 elliott, so probably not just nop padding then 15:43:30 http://libposix.sourceforge.net/ why does this exist 15:43:39 * Phantom_Hoover decides to disassemble his /bin/true 15:43:58 elliott, *nix in user space or what? 15:44:01 Vorpal: no 15:44:08 Vorpal: libc that conforms strictly to posix 2008 with no extensions 15:44:12 why? WHO KNOWS 15:44:16 http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/libposix/index.php?title=Compare 15:44:45 stupid 15:44:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:05 Yay, I got hand-approved for byuu's forum. SO LUCKY :p 15:45:08 very stupid and ill defined criteria for most of those 15:45:41 Conclusion: /bin/true is completely insane. 15:46:07 Scan files in their entirety. If -a is not specified, it is implementation-defined what portion of each file is scanned for strings. <-- on linux I believe it skips some comment sections from ELF files or such 15:46:17 nopw 0x0(%rax,%rax,1) 15:46:18 What. 15:46:24 "Do not scan only the initialized and loaded sections of object files; scan the whole files." 15:46:28 Just, what. 15:46:37 Phantom_Hoover, what is strange about that. It is a nop. 15:46:45 Phantom_Hoover, in fact a nop larger than 1 byte 15:46:58 Vorpal, but WHY 15:47:06 lol 15:47:08 addressed nop 15:47:08 this is nothing unexpected. Compilers add padding between functions and so on. 15:47:12 Phantom_Hoover: disassemble with intel syntax urgh 15:47:21 elliott, oh, you can do that? 15:47:39 Phantom_Hoover: i think you can tell objdump to 15:47:44 -M intel 15:47:45 failing that you could convert 15:47:46 right 15:47:56 OK, better. 15:48:06 I still have no idea where the hell execution starts. 15:48:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 15:48:33 elliott, both intel and amd docs recommend that you use use as large nops as possible rather than many small. Better with one 7 byte nop than 7 one byte ones. Better for instruction pipeline if ever executed or something such iirc (as would be if it aligns the start of a loop, but not if you align the start of a function) 15:48:48 Phantom_Hoover: Um, at _main. One would presume. 15:48:57 elliott, not _start? 15:49:02 Vorpal: Well, that's irrelevant. 15:49:04 GNU true is written in C. 15:49:24 And dynamically linked? 15:49:24 elliott, well _start is provided by crt0.o or some such file 15:49:27 No. 15:49:40 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:49:51 um yes i would assume 15:49:56 Yes. C programs are linked to crt whatever, which contains the _start symbol. 15:49:56 re dynamically linked 15:50:07 well crt is always compiled in 15:50:08 Statically linked, not dynamically. 15:50:13 but it'll be dynamically linked to libc. 15:50:24 no one claimed it would be dynamically linked to crt0.o ... 15:51:05 Anyhow, at least my /bin/true is stripped, so it doesn't have the executable's own symbols any more. 15:51:07 Vorpal, also, ELF(64) doesn't prepend _ to function names. 15:51:09 how fun, my /bin/true seems completely stripped of all symbols 15:51:17 presumably they are in some -dbg packet 15:51:20 package* 15:51:54 Anyway, objdump -f reports the entry point address; start from there. 15:52:11 Phantom_Hoover, _start is still called _start 15:52:23 Phantom_Hoover, just check with an unstripped file 15:52:25 Vorpal, yes, but main is not changed to _main. 15:53:03 Phantom_Hoover, I never claimed it was 15:53:10 Phantom_Hoover, that was elliott 15:53:28 elliott, is this true? 15:53:34 i believe so? 15:53:41 it was a misatke 15:53:44 *mistake 15:55:01 how tricky is un-inlineing? 15:55:38 for something like lostking.b it could be an optimisation I believe. 15:57:35 Vorpal: tricky. 15:57:43 i think lostkng is goto-based, not procedures, no? maybe not 15:57:47 elliott: have you managed to compile bsnes? 15:58:05 cheater99: yes on linux, no on os x 15:58:09 i'd need a newer gcc 15:58:12 and i'd rather just get linux working 15:58:16 i don't have 4.5 and when i try to compile wiht 4.4 it makes problems with syntax 15:58:18 elliott, hm. I just noticed a lot of code snippets showing up again and again over the file 15:58:26 i don't want to install 4.5 either. 15:58:57 cheater99: well, you have to. 15:58:59 cheater99: gcc is very buggy. 15:59:14 cheater99: besides, it needs a gcc with C++0x support 15:59:14 elliott, why not clang? 15:59:18 which 4.4 evidently doesn't have 15:59:22 There really ought to be a word for anti-Luddites. 15:59:35 Vorpal: you have no idea how much emulator code gets badly compiled 15:59:45 cheater99: the makefile specifically sets that gcc version when the OS is OS X, and for a reason 15:59:46 Phantom_Hoover, apart from "anti-Luddites" you mean? 16:00:02 You know, people who view all new technology as wonderful and obviously superior to what went before. 16:00:04 4.4 has 0x 16:00:05 elliott, well, is it doing something strange then? 16:00:10 elliott! 16:00:17 it doesn't recognize []() { ... } 16:00:21 tell me about that type system you mentioned earlier 16:00:24 that's what 4.4 chokes on 16:00:24 elliott, I mean, unless you JIT or do evil mangling or similar it should work, no? 16:00:35 elliott, in theory at least 16:00:36 Vorpal: hahahaha 16:00:40 Vorpal: you have way too much faith in c compilers 16:00:43 cheater99: that's C++0x. 16:00:50 elliott, well duh, due to bugs it won't in practise 16:00:52 cheater99: you need a compiler with C++0x lambda support. get a gcc 4.5 binary. 16:00:57 elliott: 4.4 has 0x mode at least 16:01:02 cheater99: but no lambda support 16:01:05 yeah 16:01:08 augur: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/category/code/ixi/ read from bottom to top 16:01:18 why is he using lambdas anyways? 16:02:15 elliott, C++? lambdas? wait a second... Do they give you a proper closure? 16:02:26 it would seem they do 16:02:26 Vorpal: yes. 16:02:38 cheater99: because he built his gui layer around them 16:02:52 haha @ php, php has recently received closures. 16:03:17 name\spaces 16:03:26 You can separately sort of tell which variables to capture. 16:03:32 (In a C++0x lambda.) 16:03:36 elliott, what language would you use to write a program that needs to do lots of ioctl()s and similar? 16:03:44 elliott: yeah, namespaces in php are largely laughable 16:03:50 Vorpal: i wouldn't :> 16:04:00 Vorpal: haskell of course 16:04:02 elliott, well, in the hypothetical situation that you would. 16:04:02 Vorpal: or some ML dialect ... if I could get away with it ... maybe 16:04:19 haskell might work 16:04:22 elliott, hm. So good FFI there? 16:04:29 Vorpal: no, just bindings. 16:04:33 i don;'t know of any ml ffis 16:04:34 *don't 16:04:38 meh 16:04:38 anyway 16:04:41 i'm tired 16:04:42 right 16:04:49 elliott, go sleep then? 16:05:04 Vorpal: umm 16:05:04 elliott, you can join oerjan in his sleep schedule 16:05:04 it's 4pm 16:05:08 i have to be up at 8am 16:05:12 well 16:05:13 8 to 9 16:05:24 both haskell and erlang have very good ffi 16:05:33 if i slept now i would wake up at midnight 16:05:37 but i couldn;t anyway 16:05:38 not tired enough 16:05:40 *couldn't 16:05:49 elliott: you'll get up at 4-5, which means you'll be allowed to oversleep for the next couple of weeks 16:05:57 oh shut up 16:06:18 that wasn't nice :( 16:13:33 I slept 24 hours once a week ago 16:14:02 continuously? 16:14:09 Yes. 16:15:03 my "record" is about 16 hours I think 16:15:38 zzo38: Had you not slept before? 16:16:23 elliott: I had slept before. 16:17:13 i think mine may be like 20 hours, but not sure 16:17:58 zzo38: how long ago? 16:21:07 elliott: I think the previous day. 16:23:19 -!- lambdabot has joined. 16:23:34 -!- Hilbert has joined. 16:24:00 damn 16:24:06 i'm completely lost 16:24:15 nooga: try and die >:) 16:24:16 omg who got lambdabot 16:24:21 Phantom_Hoover: did you get lambdabot 16:24:37 elliott, yes. 16:24:43 Phantom_Hoover: permanent? :p 16:24:56 Cale certainly offered it. 16:25:10 SO LUCKY 16:25:14 > 41+1 16:25:14 42 16:25:35 -!- shachaf has joined. 16:25:43 -!- Silvah has joined. 16:25:48 Cale, i.e. yes. 16:25:48 Phantom_Hoover: done :) 16:25:49 oh dear god Phantom_Hoover what did you do 16:25:55 they're invading now 16:26:13 elliott, THE PORTAL IN THE CHANNELS WAS NOT MEANT TO BE 16:26:14 our topic is not very presentable for this occasion 16:26:21 I HAVE TAMPERED IN GOD'S DOMAIN 16:26:34 -!- elliott has set topic: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/. 16:26:44 act professional, everyone 16:26:51 * Phantom_Hoover does his tie up. 16:27:32 Relax, people. I deal with esoteric languages all the time. 16:27:34 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:27:46 Today I'll probably be doing something with C++, for instance. 16:27:51 -!- Cale has joined. 16:28:02 why did it quit? 16:28:07 shachaf: seconded 16:28:13 It quit in #haskell as well, FWIW. 16:28:14 I just wanted to make a change to the code 16:28:20 uh oh :D 16:28:25 It's coming back up :) 16:28:28 Phantom_Hoover, well of course, to be per channel it would be /part 16:28:36 or PART rather 16:28:38 Cale: we apologise if it gets into one of our famous botloops. 16:28:45 although i think lambdabot puts spaces in front of enough outputs to avoid that. 16:28:45 Cale: What, lambdabot doesn't support hot reloading of the startup code? :-) 16:28:54 elliott, thankfully the last one was ages ago iirc? 16:28:57 elliott: Was that bug fixed? 16:29:08 shachaf: What bug? 16:29:19 ?where+ bug ?where haskell 16:29:27 Wait, she's not even in here. 16:29:29 @echo !echo `echo echo 16:29:40 shachaf: I doubt she responds to herself. 16:29:41 Oh, wait. 16:29:48 shachaf: But, er, if that works then yes, there is slight cause for concern. 16:29:50 Phantom_Hoover, I believe the bots are configured to ignore each other. Also which one is @ ? 16:29:53 :-P 16:29:54 elliott: Yes, you need two lambdabots for that to work. 16:30:00 Vorpal, lambdabot. 16:30:02 ah 16:30:07 shachaf: Say hello to EgoBot, HackEgo, and fungot. 16:30:07 elliott: as for unix. ( at the problem: if a ranlib index is there really such a subdomain as far as i have 16:30:08 As well as > and ?, it appears. 16:30:10 ^source 16:30:10 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 16:30:15 fungot ignores all the bots though. 16:30:15 elliott: i wonder if that isn't terrible, just to show a friend of mine heard shouted at his theatre, " it's _not_ a waste of my message was just too damn busy putting in multiple ways by the 16:30:18 But HackEgo talks to everyone I think. 16:30:24 does it hm 16:30:28 shachaf: It was a different change I wanted to make (the flags for running mueval) 16:30:35 ^ul (`ls)S 16:30:36 `ls 16:30:36 (P.S. When is lambdabot going to be rewritten in Befunge?) 16:30:37 Cale: Ah. 16:30:41 lets see 16:30:44 wait 16:30:46 (It's obviously the most elegant and concise language for writing IRC bots: http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98) 16:30:46 elliott: upon setting establishing a dial up connection, large memory and a few 16:30:47 where is hackego? 16:30:52 Vorpal: down again probably 16:30:56 right 16:30:59 heh, wow, the joins take a long time 16:31:08 Cale: I'm sure they'd go faster ... with Befunge! 16:31:15 lambdabot's join list is getting kind of insane :P 16:31:25 Psht, I remember when we were one of, like... 10 channels! 16:31:28 -!- lambdabot has joined. 16:31:29 Gregor, your bots are not looking making a good impression. 16:31:31 In the good old days. 16:31:32 > 2+@ 16:31:34 mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse 16:31:34 oops 16:31:36 @unlambda `.xv 16:31:37 > 2+2 16:31:37 x 16:31:38 mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse 16:31:46 @echo !echo `echo echo 16:31:46 Ah, lambadbot belongs here after all. 16:31:46 echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric", 16:31:47 ":@echo !echo `echo echo"]} rest:"!echo `echo echo" 16:31:57 shachaf, how so? 16:32:06 That seems buggy, but I'm no expert. 16:32:07 Vorpal: Well, @bf and @unlambda. 16:32:14 Maybe that's not esoteric enough for this channel, though. 16:32:14 shachaf, right 16:32:17 >putStrLn "hello" 16:32:26 shachaf: EgoBot already does those! :-P 16:32:26 > text "hello" 16:32:28 mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse 16:32:40 elliott, and fungot too? 16:32:40 Vorpal: we're still picking up the core file, i get a zillion copies of the directory, it is possible there's a new conceptual grouping of processes). 16:32:41 Cale: mueval is broken. 16:32:46 Vorpal: not unlambda 16:32:50 elliott, oh right 16:32:54 shachaf: So is the Brainfuck 8-bit, 16-bit, bignum? Left-infinite or right-infinite tape? What EOF convention? (Any input?) 16:33:05 @version 16:33:06 lambdabot 4.2.2.1 16:33:06 shachaf: Do c and d interact properly in the Unlambda? 16:33:06 darcs get http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot 16:33:07 >:D 16:33:12 oh dear 16:33:13 hehe 16:33:14 elliott, I always mix up {under,un}{load,lambda} for unknown reason 16:33:23 Clearly lambdabot should support Lazy K instead of unlambda. 16:33:26 Cale, you broke lambdabot! 16:33:30 shachaf: I approve. 16:33:32 It's more flexible! 16:33:35 j #haskell 16:33:36 oops. 16:33:51 Did I pimp my monady IO library for Lazy K yet? 16:34:02 IT IS TOTALLY MONADY 16:34:15 http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/Plugin/BF.hs Wait, whre's the actual interpreter? 16:34:20 Also the sequencing is broken. 16:34:32 (Heh @ it being breadbox's though.) 16:35:32 elliott: In the main directory. 16:35:49 ah 16:36:27 hmm 16:36:35 it looks like it's... right-infinite? I think so 16:36:38 8-bit cells 16:36:42 It should support http://samuelhughes.com/boof/ 16:36:45 wrap on overflow 16:36:55 Samuel Hughes != Sam Hughes? 16:37:00 shachaf: It should support every language on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list. 16:37:10 shachaf: But especially http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php. 16:37:10 Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean? 16:37:12 elliott: Some of them are uncomputable. 16:37:16 shachaf, note that a fair deal of those languages are not computable. 16:37:20 zzo38: And it should support them best of all! 16:37:31 And some of them require time travel. 16:37:35 Phantom_Hoover: The latter is an alias for the former, as far as I can tell. 16:37:45 shachaf, Sam Hughes of qntm.org. 16:37:46 Not like time travel is computable. 16:37:53 Everyone with the same name is the same person! 16:37:55 Phantom_Hoover: No, it's "the other" Sam Hughes. 16:37:57 You heard it here first. 16:38:07 idiotic mob killed me in my new cavern 16:38:14 and i've lost tools and coal 16:38:15 huh 16:38:16 ;f 16:38:17 How stupid of it. 16:38:19 nooga: At least pretend this isn't #minecraft while we have guests. 16:38:29 Ha! 16:38:33 We've caught you. 16:38:41 NO WE TALK ABOUT ESOTERIC LANGUAGES _ALL DAY_ 16:38:48 Some of them, although computable, are not enough information to write implementation. 16:38:52 MINECRAFT IN AN ESOTERIC LANGUAGE 16:38:53 DISCUSS 16:38:55 oh 16:38:56 guests 16:38:56 Like Java? 16:38:59 How esoteric. 16:39:12 shachaf: Oh man, that's as funny as that one time someone called Perl line noise! 16:39:16 shachaf, we have a well-established boundary between "esoteric" and "boring". 16:39:17 woah, yesterday's log is really big 16:39:18 shachaf: Actually we discuss like a lot of various things in this channel, although esoteric programming is its main topic. 16:39:26 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Boring languages are the ones we don't like. 16:39:28 *ostensibly 16:39:33 Esoteric languages are the ones too repulsive to dislike. 16:39:34 elliott, YES 16:39:46 Wait, some esolangs are actually nice. 16:40:00 Redivider is actually quite snazzy I've always thought. 16:40:07 (We still need an Eodermdrome interpreter.) 16:40:34 shachaf: Really though, our favourite esoteric language, so theoretical and academic to be almost useless, yet so beautiful in its purity that it's almost a shame that it's impossible to write real programs in it... 16:40:37 shachaf: Haskell. 16:40:42 * elliott runs away, *very* quickly 16:41:11 elliott: Why? I doubt most of #haskell would seriously disagree with you. 16:41:20 touche :) 16:41:20 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:41:27 Maybe dons and the other Galois folks. 16:41:30 elliott, you think Haskell isn't theoretically pure *enough*. 16:41:38 Phantom_Hoover: Well...yes...that is to say... 16:41:45 LOOK JUST BECAUSE I WANT DEPENDENT TYPES 16:41:59 Phantom_Hoover: Well, as far as languages that *try* to be theoretically pure, Haskell probably ranks pretty badly. 16:42:00 AND FRP RATHER THAN IO 16:42:21 I just say that 'cuz Conal's surname is my name. 16:42:25 We should totally make a Haskell Lazy K interpreter. 16:42:26 Have to stick together and all. 16:42:34 Phantom_Hoover: A Haskell interpreter in Lazy K? 16:42:35 I approve. 16:42:39 BOTH! 16:42:43 Is there any language that uses FRP in any meaningful way? 16:42:52 shachaf: Conalskell! 16:42:55 Haskell is pretty much right on the boundary between research languages and languages that are practical to use 16:42:57 First the Lazy K interpreter. 16:43:06 elliott: Is "elliott" /= "elliottt"? 16:43:17 shachaf: Yes indeed. 16:43:27 shachaf: In fact I have talked to elliottt before I believe. Quite confusing. 16:43:32 In fact I'm = ehird. 16:43:33 Mathematica 7 has a sorta FRP-like thing which actually works, but isn't very theoretically nice. 16:43:42 Cale: Plus it's Mathematica. 16:43:49 Ah, you're ehird. OK. 16:43:57 Darn, now you know my secret. 16:44:06 Must be sneakier. 16:44:56 -!- lambdabot has joined. 16:46:16 This channel seems like such a time-waster. 16:46:25 * shachaf doesn't play Minecraft, though. 16:46:35 So presumably when you show your true colors it'll subside. 16:47:43 shachaf: That is, until you start playing. 16:47:58 Actually we seem to have had a slight break in Minecraft chat due to Christmas. It has been replaced with silence. 16:48:06 But I think it's picking up again. 16:48:17 I swear we talk about other things sometimes too though, I just have no idea what they are. 16:49:30 16:42 < Cale> Haskell is pretty much right on the boundary between research languages and languages that are practical to use 16:49:38 that makes it sound like haskell is almost useless 16:50:05 j-invariant: Well, it basically just became useful for industry work :) 16:50:27 -!- Silvah has left (?). 16:50:34 j-invariant: In the last few years or so. 16:50:37 Cale: yeah sure, with your wimpy typesystem 16:51:20 I don't play Minecraft either. 16:51:22 (،،3) 1 2 16:51:22 I really am amazed how people can use haskell types to set up the program to be correct in various ways 16:51:25 > (،،3) 1 2 16:51:27 (3,2,1) 16:51:39 I did make up a lot of my own games, though. 16:51:49 -!- distant_figure has joined. 16:51:51 every time I try to do that I find that I don't need some feature that don't exist 16:52:10 -!- distant_figure has left (?). 16:52:36 j-invariant, wait, to prove it correct? 16:52:42 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:52:57 Dear GOD, why is it so hard to find a list of reasons why sucks. 16:53:05 Phantom_Hoover: not abtsract high level correctness but simple stuff 16:53:49 I mean, PHP, C++, Java: these are all considered suckish. Yet it is nigh-impossible to find reasons for this. 16:53:58 heh 16:54:06 It's just assumed that you *know* why they suck. 16:54:45 zzo38: I would like to make a game 16:55:12 I don't think I could be bothered to actually type out all the code for the thing |I have in mind tohugh :( 16:55:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:55:42 j-invariant, what is it? 16:56:52 Phantom_Hoover: The question of why those suck comes up all the time and has been answered on the web, mailing lists, and elsewhere countless times :) 16:57:12 Cale, but actually finding those answers is hard. 16:57:20 j-invariant: What ideas do you have for making a game? 16:57:48 Phantom_Hoover: The easiest reason that those three all suck is that they have no proper support for functions. 16:57:54 zzo38: well not so much a game but just an program that lets you immerse yourself in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhombic_dodecahedral_honeycomb 16:58:03 zzo38: so it could be like a maze 16:58:25 I mean, you could go into detail, but why nitpick when there's a gigantic glaring flaw :) 16:58:29 j-invariant, make it a text game. 16:58:33 j-invariant: Have you tried any of my games? Feel free also to modify them. 16:58:42 zzo38: do anya of them work on ubuntu? 16:58:56 j-invariant, DO NOT BE DRAWN IN BY ZZO 16:58:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:59:06 j-invariant: Yes, any MegaZeux games will work if you compile MegaZeux for Ubuntu. 16:59:20 We've known how to implement first class functions efficiently for decades, and we've known about their importance to abstraction since before the dawn of electronic computing. There's no excuse. :) 16:59:47 zzo38: link? 16:59:51 Cale: also they have mutability 16:59:53 to your MegaZeux games 16:59:59 08:59 < Khaos> !pom 16:59:59 08:59 < Rodney> The Moon is New. New moon in NetHack for the next 3 days. 17:00:00 and weak to no type system 17:00:06 lambdabot needs to get this functionality. 17:00:21 j-invariant: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP 17:00:38 shachaf: psht, soon you will ascend from nethack to playing dwarf fortress. then you'll descend from playing dwarf fortress to lego^Wminecraft. 17:00:41 And here is the source code of MegaZeux so that it can be compiled: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux_src.zip 17:00:59 zzo38: shouldn't I use http://sourceforge.net/projects/megazeux/files/megazeux/2.82b/megazeux_2.82b_amd64.deb/download ? 17:01:02 oh 17:01:10 elliott: Dwarf Fortress? Minecraft? What about your liberty? 17:01:10 nevermind 17:01:27 shachaf: NetHack takes away the liberty referred to as "free time" 17:02:15 zzo38: what do you think of my idea 17:02:35 j-invariant: No. You can also get the latest version compiled from http://vault.digitalmzx.net/ but my version has some additional features and other things. 17:02:39 elliott: Dwarf Fortress doesn't provide the source code. Minecraft doesn't even provide the binary without payment. 17:02:55 shachaf: And NetHack doesn't provide free time. 17:03:08 zzo38: did you write the music for this? 17:03:16 j-invariant: Maybe you can make a game? 17:03:20 elliott: Look, in this comparison you're not gaining anything by saying that one of them takes away your free time. 17:03:29 That's considered an invariant. 17:03:39 shachaf: I'm not actually being serious 17:03:58 j-invariant: The music for the game? I typed in the music for the title screen and some others. I didn't compose the music myself though. 17:04:00 gee I don't know how to press F5 17:04:06 * shachaf isn't completely either. 17:04:10 zzo38: I like this music 17:04:15 I know it's an old tune 17:04:20 I had more or less stopped with NetHack until two people independently tried to get me to start again. 17:04:24 * shachaf sighs. 17:04:31 j-invariant: What kind of computer are you using that you don't know how to push F5 key? 17:04:39 You can also push "P", that also works. 17:04:57 * shachaf vanishes in a puff of orange smoke. 17:05:00 (In case the F5 key is broken) 17:07:11 zzo38: I don't know if this is a bug I am stuck 17:07:45 j-invariant: Where did you get stuck? Describe. 17:08:00 the whole screen is grey except for a box 17:08:07 http://i.imgur.com/nkc4J.png 17:08:24 j-invariant: That is a dark room. Push T to light a torch. 17:08:32 ah! 17:08:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:08:35 (Also push H for help) 17:08:53 im not very good at games :P 17:10:15 I love the music thuogh 17:11:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:11:12 j-invariant: Also, if you have a DOS emulator, you might want to try the CGA Collection games (there are many different ones, but they are all small games). Here is a wiki article about the Super ASCII MZX Town series: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town 17:11:43 Which statements in the list in the "Criticize" section do you think are true and which do you think are untrue? 17:12:06 I want to play this game 17:12:08 more 17:12:15 I'm dead 17:12:41 j-invariant: OK continue playing Super ASCII MZX Town. It is good game but it is difficult. If you get dead you can try again. Remember to save game. 17:13:08 (Push F9 to quicksave, F3 to save in a different filename (in case you want multiple save files), F10 to quickload, and F4 to select a file to restore a save game.) 17:13:11 "DID YOU KNOW THAT 100% OF THE PEOPLE THAT ENTER THE TOWER OF DOOM DIE?" lol 17:15:15 I wish I knew how to press F-keys 17:15:36 j-invariant: um by pressing them? 17:15:36 You depress them. 17:15:46 j-invariant: What kind of computer are you using? 17:16:06 there are pictures on the Fkeys like mute, audio up, turn off internet... I don't know why 17:16:11 anyway that is what they do 17:16:14 j-invariant: mac by any chance? 17:16:16 j-invariant: try Fn+Fkey 17:16:20 j-invariant: that sends the actual f key 17:16:29 works with most laptops that do that shit 17:16:48 j-invariant: You might also have to change a BIOS setting. Some laptop computers allow changing this mode by BIOS setting. 17:17:52 "you need an inappropriate key" haha 17:18:42 why is there a timer in the forest? 17:19:17 j-invariant: Because that level (and some other levels) are timed. When you run out of time you lose 2 health points. 17:19:55 even when I set display mode to health I don't see health 17:20:09 oh I do, my character is a number now 17:20:21 j-invariant: That is because you have 100 or more. If you have less than 100, the face representing the player displays the tens digit of the health. 17:22:06 (You can also push ENTER to display status) 17:22:34 great 17:27:41 is there a key t osave other than F3? 17:27:44 fizzie: Was that arbitrary-placement thing fixed by SSI? 17:28:14 j-invariant: Yes, F9 is quicksave, it saves in the same filename previously selected. F3 allows you to enter a new filename to save, in case you want multiple save files. 17:28:29 -!- sspm has joined. 17:28:31 sorry I meant other than an F-key 17:29:25 j-invariant: No, sorry. (Next time you reboot the computer, check the BIOS setting for the setting of F-keys.) 17:30:04 i figured out how to press those keys 17:30:28 Still, changing the BIOS setting might make it easier to press those keys. 17:33:49 how to install mysql on ubuntu 10.10? 17:34:06 sudo-apt get install mysql 17:34:24 sspm: Probably something like: sudo apt-get install mysql 17:34:45 how to start orca software? 17:35:01 sspm: Did you try typing in "orca"? Did you look through the menus? 17:36:01 i tried to install it but it didn't work...! 17:37:25 sspm: Maybe you need a different package name. In Ubuntu, if you try to type in a name of a program that is not installed, it will tell you what the package name is. 17:38:10 elliott: Yes; it no longer accepts place-block messages if you aren't holding that particular block. 17:39:40 once i installed orca,will it start automatically or some setting has to be done... 17:40:09 sspm: Do you know if there is a IRC channel for orca? Did you read the manual page for orca? 17:40:18 I don't know about that program. 17:40:28 zzo38: this is great 17:40:39 I got to the lava two screens past the forest 17:41:06 no 17:42:02 j-invariant: OK. Any questions about that screen? Do you mean the one where they sell the inappropriate keys? 17:42:08 yes 17:42:15 sspm: sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda 17:45:15 j-invariant: You won't be able to continue at that level until you find the purple keycard (not because you need it for this level, but for an entirely different reason). (Hint: When a transporter is blocked you will move to the corresponding one on the other side. This might help you find the keycard?) 17:46:00 is it the command to start orca?\ 17:46:12 sspm: cheater99's command is wrong that surely won't help you install the program. Did you try "man orca"? 17:46:53 sspm: Also, is there a webpage or book or something for that program? You can also look there. 17:47:25 oh right, i was missing count=10240 17:47:31 sspm: sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240 17:47:39 in fact you can couple it with apt-get 17:48:27 sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240; sudo apt-get orca; halt -pfw 17:50:22 sspm: Did you know cheater99 is cheating? 17:50:47 So don't do those commands! 17:50:56 i'm a cheater :p 17:51:16 zzo38: it will install orca on his ubuntu, not sure what you mean 17:51:40 it's not like it'll erase his hard disk. 17:53:19 cheater99: I doubt it will install anything. Maybe "sudo apt-get install orca" might work, though. Your long command will not. 17:53:42 zzo38: well, let him try it and see who's right 17:54:23 cheater99: I suggest he tries my way first; your way might mess up his computer. 17:54:38 to whom should i trust? 17:54:39 apt-get can't mess up a computer, it uses debian packages! 17:54:46 sspm: trust debian 17:55:02 cheater99: But dd can. Also, apt-get requires more parameters, I think. 17:55:32 zzo38: apt-get is smart enough on its own. 17:55:50 sspm: Just try "man apt-get" then if you want to read the manual page to make sure. 17:56:00 ok now just tell me command for starting orca 17:56:11 sspm: Did you try typing "orca" or "man orca"? 17:56:17 sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240; sudo apt-get orca; halt -pfw 17:56:36 cheater99: No that is wrong! 17:56:39 Stop cheating!! 17:56:41 nope 17:56:54 stop trying to make sspm install man on his computer!!! 17:56:58 it'll mess it up 17:57:36 cheater99: I am not trying to make sspm install man on his computer. man is probably already installed and it won't mess up. 17:57:51 of course you are 17:58:06 sspm: Just try "man apt-get" << uh huh and then his computer doesn't boot 17:59:10 cheater99: It will boot if nothing was damaged (this includes both physical damage and damage due to programming). 17:59:43 zzo38: well then why are you telling him to use man? 18:00:03 cheater99: To read the manual page so that he can try to understand how it works. 18:00:23 yeah, read it after his computer melts down 18:00:26 read & weep 18:00:32 if you are worried about whether man is dangerous read man man first 18:01:24 cheater99: His computer won't melt unless he overheats it. 18:01:59 j-invariant: that would probably complately disintegrate his PCB 18:02:34 sspm: If you are worries about whether man is dangerous, go to the computer store near you, and ask the people who work there. Maybe they don't know; but it is better than nothing. 18:04:21 zzo38: what do you think about the rhombic dodecahedron honeycomb 18:04:41 j-invariant: I think you might try making a game with it if you want to. 18:05:35 -!- sspm has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:09:41 Did I type the license exception properly? http://sprunge.us/PMNW 18:11:51 cheater99: dude i think you just wiped sspm's disk 18:11:57 except he didn't use sudo probably 18:16:33 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:17:05 -!- elliott has joined. 18:19:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:20:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:23:33 "yooo #VIDEOPOSTERID#, take a look at "stream episodes (DOT) net" to be able to enjoy complete tv shows and movies considering that youtube won't permit these videos." .. sigh 18:23:51 might as well just scream " I AM A SPAMMER" 18:24:44 lugh you have supposed to have a youtube account in order to flag spam 18:25:58 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:28:31 -!- elliott has joined. 18:28:40 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:29:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 18:29:55 -!- pumpkin has joined. 18:30:05 ohai 18:30:48 O HAI, I'M ROGER PENROSE. 18:31:03 []-o 18:31:06 TENSOR PRODUCT 18:32:13 What was the crazy thing Penrose believed? 18:32:41 Something about quantum theory and spirits or something, no? 18:32:42 "The only analogy to the Emperor's New Clothes in operation about this subject is that no one has seriously condemned Penrose's mystifying jaunt into neuroscience as the ridiculous crap that it is" 18:32:53 Yeah 18:32:55 "The notion that the brain violates Godel's Theorem, and therefore cannot be represented by a computable function, and therefore it must be QUANTUM is fractally retarded. Not one aspect of the story makes any sense. I've always been mystified by the idea." 18:32:59 haha 18:33:10 http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/evyew/roger_penrose_was_dropped_down_a_class_for_being/c1beffe 18:33:27 Can't be too harsh on the guy, though 18:33:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:33:38 Many big names in science tend to do that once in a while 18:33:50 Venture outside their field of expertise and start going crazy 18:34:28 Are Penrose tiles useful or just beautiful? 18:34:28 My interest in the tiles has to do with the idea of a universe controlled by very simple forces, even though we see complications all over the place. The tilings follow conventional rules to make complicated patterns. It was an attempt to see how the complicated could be satisfied by very simple rules that reflect what we see in the world. 18:34:29 -!- elliott has joined. 18:34:32 I think it is partially quantum. (Whether it violates Godel's Theorem I do not know, though.) Also, it is possible to emulate quantum computer on a classical computer but it uses up a lot more time and space. 18:35:29 zzo38, well, of course it's partially quantum. So is everything. 18:35:47 zzo38: I thought they sort of ruled out the possibility of any quantum mechanical effect being crucial to the functioning of the brain - but I watched some quantum biology talks where they refute the heat&size arguments in photosynthesis - so it's tricky 18:35:47 The question is whether or not it's quantum enough to make it noncomputable. 18:35:54 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes, but not quite what I was trying to mean. 18:36:03 zzo38 : Everything is entirely quantum 18:36:08 That is what shit is made of! 18:36:08 Penrose likes to say "microtubles" 18:36:25 "quantum" in this case means having an essential non-classical operation 18:36:37 Phantom_Hoover_: But I think quantum computation is *not* uncomputable? Isn't it??? 18:37:41 yeah quantum mechanical computation is turing equivalent 18:38:23 Any super-turing computer in nature would be a massive discovery, something on the same scale of importance as discovering evolution or gravity 18:39:05 The essential quantum ingredient is one from which emerges (among other things) quantum free will (which is different from classical free will). And then there are some other things too. Including quantum consciousness, quantum evolution, quantum immortality, and Heisenberg. 18:39:36 ... 18:39:38 I hate you 18:39:41 when you say "free will", that's a technical term isn't it? 18:39:52 j-invariant: how do you define "turing equivalent"? 18:39:52 zzo38: There is no such thing as quantum free will. 18:39:53 Of course, these are emergent phenomena, which have partially to do with required quantum phenomena. 18:40:00 coppro: seriously? 18:40:02 I remain convinced that the very concept of free will is stupid. 18:40:02 zzo38: Congrats, you're spewing quantumbabble. 18:40:08 I mean, how do you define it? 18:40:12 j-invariant: seriously 18:40:12 Phantom_Hoover_: With MAGIC 18:40:26 elliott, you were expecting well-reasoned, sane thought from zzo38? 18:40:36 Phantom_Hoover_: I don't expect quantum crackpottery. 18:40:40 coppro: if you can simulate a turing machine with it, and a turing machine can simulate it 18:41:07 elliott: I think there is a such thing as quantum free will. There is also such thing as classical free will. But I do not believe in classical free will. I do believe in quantum free will. 18:41:09 coppro: with QM you need to put the condition that the result is correct with probability 1-epsilon 18:41:20 zzo38: What is your evidence? 18:41:52 coppro: I think you know this :| 18:41:55 zzo38: To start with, I would like a definition of quantum free will. 18:42:14 elliott: A mathematical definition, do you mean? 18:42:23 zzo38: Any definition, so long as it is precise. 18:42:24 IIRC "free will" is a technical term 18:42:33 j-invariant: I doubt he means it in that sense. 18:42:36 nothing to do with that spiritual nonsense 18:42:40 A definition will tell. 18:42:50 j-invariant, what does it mean in technical terms? 18:42:54 j-invariant: yes, but they are not equivalent if you're including a probability 18:43:27 [[Penrose notes that the present home of computing lies more in the tangible world of classical mechanics than in the imponderable realm of quantum mechanics]] — WP 18:43:36 coppro: really? can you elaborate because I thought that was a pretty sound definition 18:43:40 How the hell do microchips not use QM? 18:43:48 Phantom_Hoover_: see above 18:44:04 18:35 < j-invariant> "quantum" in this case means having an essential non-classical operation 18:44:16 Oh, right. 18:44:27 e.g. exploiting entanglement, interference etc. 18:44:32 zzo38: Well? 18:44:37 it's a double meaning 18:44:58 j-invariant, don't microchips kind of rely on energy levels or somesuch? 18:45:18 hmm, are there super-turing computers that do not solve the halting problem? 18:45:41 Phantom_Hoover_: I don't really know aboult microchips but I think you can understand them classically 18:46:03 elliott: I am figuring it out now. 18:46:30 j-invariant: actually they've had to account for quantum tunneling in recent designs 18:46:33 *tunnelling 18:46:37 because the parts have got so damn small 18:46:39 I still don't see how the hell the brain violates Gödel. 18:46:48 Phantom_Hoover_: bCuZ 0f m4jik 18:46:49 Phantom_Hoover_: it doesn't 18:46:55 Phantom_Hoover_: the whole thing is bullshit 18:46:56 Phantom_Hoover_: I doubt it violates Godel. It doesn't have to. 18:47:21 zzo38, just get on with defining quantum free will so we can tear it apart. 18:47:38 http://www.1729.com/consciousness/math-journal.html 18:47:54 j-invariant, so wait, he just says "the brain violates Gödel" and doesn't justify? 18:48:04 j-invariant: that's a joke yes 18:48:22 indeed 18:48:25 it links to http://www.1729.com/consciousness/godel.html 18:49:05 coppro: I probaly need to brush up on basics of quantum computing 18:49:31 j-invariant: yes 18:49:42 http://amazingformula.com/ this is the greatest thing ever 18:49:48 coppro: yes what? 18:50:20 * Phantom_Hoover_ needs to learn the basics of quantum computing. 18:50:29 j-invariant: a quantum TM /can/ be simulated by a probabilistic TM, but not fully accurately by a non-deterministic TM 18:51:09 so you are saying the turing machine is stronger than the QTM? 18:51:42 no, that QTMs are quivalent to NTMs, which can do more than TMs (/but/ a TM can caclulate anything an NTM can, just it might be slower) 18:52:08 your notion of equivalence takes complexity into account/ 18:52:08 for instance, the program "halt with 50% probability" cannot be implemented in a TM 18:52:09 ? 18:52:13 no 18:52:25 18:51 coppro: for instance, the program "halt with 50% probability" cannot be implemented in a TM 18:52:29 yes it can! 18:52:29 if you take complexity into account, QTMs are stronger than both NTMs and TMs 18:52:36 consider any program written in PHP 18:52:39 :P 18:54:10 can you write a random number generator with a quantum TM? 18:54:15 (true random numbers)# 18:54:23 Yes 18:54:27 a turing machine can't do that 18:54:31 exactly 18:54:45 Simply construct the state 1/sqrt(2)|0> + 1/sqrt(2)|1> and measure it 18:54:52 you have a 50-50 chance of getting either 1 or 0 18:55:34 thus a QTM is stronger than a TM 18:56:04 Also, true turing machines are not possible in anything that can actually be physically constructed, anyways. 18:56:14 yes, of course 18:56:23 zzo38: Have you defined quantum free will yet? 18:56:37 entanglement is more fun though 18:56:47 1/sqrt(2)|00> + 1/sqrt(2)|11> ... what? 18:56:48 ill be back 18:56:58 * coppro loves having a course in 25-year old math at his school 18:58:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 18:59:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:59:54 elliott, you can join oerjan in his sleep schedule 18:59:59 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaa 19:00:18 oerjan: THE BEST SCHEDULE 19:01:21 i have an appointment tomorrow and by my calculations it seems impossible to get more than at most 5 hours sleep in between 19:01:29 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:01:45 coppro, what's wrong with that? 19:01:54 25 year old maths is relatively young. 19:02:04 he said loves 19:02:19 Sarcasm? 19:02:52 Quantum free will is an emergent phenomena. You have to treat different ontologies as being different faces of the same underlying thing. Also, free will is not as free as perfectly; the laws of physics are still followed, including all probabilities are still correct and so on. Neurons still work and such. 19:03:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:03:11 Phantom_Hoover_: it was not sarcasm 19:03:21 having a 10-year-old course on 25-year-old math is /awesome/ 19:03:27 Entanglement is also relevant. 19:03:30 zzo38: OK, but you have not defined what quantum free will is. 19:03:39 zzo38: You have just said that it is an emergent phenomenon, not told us what it actually is. 19:03:42 zzo38: What is quantum free will? 19:03:59 if you take complexity into account, QTMs are stronger than both NTMs and TMs 19:04:29 um, it is not known what relation there is between QTM and NTM 19:05:26 elliott: Entanglement with non-existent phenomena. You use the same equations as normal entanglement, because it *is* normal entanglement; but it an infinite metaphysical mathematical series with things from other possible and impossible universes. 19:05:27 lol 19:05:29 BQP is not known to contain NP, nor vice versa. BQP is contained in PSPACE though iirc 19:05:29 "the human mind (even within the realm of pure mathematics) infinitely surpasses the powers of any finite machine, or else there exist absolutely unsolvable Diophantine problems of the type specified [above]" —Goedel 19:05:36 Gödel: so stoopid 19:05:55 You have to treat it that life and universe creates each other, rather than only one way permitted. 19:05:57 zzo38: So, any entanglement with non-existent phenomena is "quantum free will"? 19:06:00 * Phantom_Hoover_ → food 19:06:03 zzo38: what the hell is metaphysical 19:06:08 Is that the definition of quantum free will? "Entanglement with non-existent phenomena"? 19:06:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:06:26 (see: subtitle of scott aaronson's blog) 19:07:23 See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly. 19:08:00 zzo38: No, no, I think I'll just come to an even better realisation of the fact that what you said has no grounding in science or logic, makes no sense at all, and should not be considered by any sane or insane person. 19:08:03 This means the universe created itself by a causality loop and destroys itself by a causality loop. 19:08:14 You seem to be talking about something else entirely now. 19:08:20 I suppose that is proof of the interconnectedness of all things? 19:08:55 elliott: No, it is the meta-lemma. 19:09:12 zzo38: are you trolling me 19:09:23 elliott: I am not intending to. 19:09:43 you're succeeding 19:10:02 Well, it is not my intention. Sorry. 19:12:17 It is based on the hard problem of consciousness (actually a slight variation) creates the universe and vice versa. The problem is therefore unsolvable. But so are many other problems. 19:12:22 elliott: I don't get that godel quote 19:12:31 j-invariant: godel is stupid too! 19:12:38 j-invariant: btw can you help me understand this sentence "See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly." 19:13:01 elliott: zzo38 has read GEB 19:13:06 elliott: maybe that's the problem? 19:13:19 j-invariant: so have I and I recovered 19:13:23 but i guess his mind might be more impressionable? 19:13:25 barely. 19:13:27 :P 19:13:27 s/cosmology loop/causality loop/ 19:13:38 Sorry, I made a typing mistake that is why you cannot understand it at first. 19:13:44 zzo38: i still don't understand :) 19:13:49 in fact i understand less 19:13:56 coincidentally, Godel proved that relativity admits a unuiverse with time loops through every point in spacetime 19:13:59 what on earth has that page got to do with causality. 19:14:26 elliott: Maybe I cannot explain it very well. 19:14:36 zzo38: are you sure _you_ understand what it means? 19:15:02 elliott: No, I don't understand it perfectly either. But I understand it better than you. 19:15:16 coppro: iis it really correct to say the quantum turing machine computes more things than normal turing machine? 19:15:21 zzo38: I very much doubt that; true understanding almost always admits even a very glossed-over explanation. 19:15:45 Since you cannot explain it in any way at all that anyone else can understand, I find it incredibly unlikely that you understand it at all, or that it is even a well-defined concept. 19:16:32 j-invariant: They have the same computational power 19:16:43 elliott: But I did explain it! 19:16:44 j-invariant: but a QTM can give stochastic output 19:16:47 whereas a TM cannot 19:16:52 (also a QTM is faster) 19:17:06 zzo38: No! You just gave me a few sentences that didn't make any sense, and one extra one that made _no_ sense to do with reversing Wikipedia articles and writing an equation based on that or something. 19:17:37 elliott: Do you know how to write equation for entanglement? 19:18:02 Back. 19:18:22 zzo38: How do I reverse the Wikipedia article into a causality loop exactly? 19:18:38 elliott: Not the article, but the idea discussed by the article. 19:18:59 zzo38: I know the definition of two entangled qubits 19:19:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:19:24 zzo38: can you explain? 19:19:41 zzo38: as far as I can tell that biocentrism thing is just a quack unfalsifiable theory by an irrelevant crackpot. 19:19:45 Write the entanglement equation, and then assume that one part is not part of the universe. And then assume that is also an entanglement with another object in a doubly-non-existing universe, and so on. 19:19:57 what. 19:20:02 no, that's not how entanglement works 19:20:03 zzo38: you are still making zero sense. 19:20:07 zzo38: are you a tensor product? 19:20:15 zzo38: information can't flow through through an entanglement "channel" 19:20:28 * Phantom_Hoover_ ponders how elliott was the one who ended up in the looney bin. 19:20:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:20:34 i think my head is going to explode unless zzo38 starts making sense really soon 19:20:41 zzo38: although the proof of this is a fair bit beyond my knowledge 19:20:48 elliott: I also thought biocentrism is unfalsifyable, but they say it isn't. I'm not sure I believe them. But it is not important because it is based on philosophy instead. 19:20:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:21:04 j-invariant: Exactly. Information is not *supposed* to flow through an entanglement "channel". 19:21:09 zzo38: unfalsifiable theories cannot hide behind "philosophy" 19:21:11 pikhq, QUICK BE SANE ZZO IS BREAKING US DOWN 19:21:15 zzo38: I say that the universe is duckcentric. 19:21:19 zzo38: The universe only exists because of ducks. 19:21:26 I say it's centricentric. 19:21:30 zzo38: ^ this makes just as much sense and is just as falsifiable as "biocentrism" 19:21:30 I'm sort of lost wrt this quantum TM stuff 19:21:31 I say it's concentric. 19:21:34 zzo38: therefore you have to consider it too 19:21:37 But correlation does. 19:21:49 See? It is correlation. 19:21:50 it's not clear what hte "output" of a QTM is 19:22:01 if you measure everything at the end, you do not have a function 19:22:12 zzo38: what 19:22:17 How do quantum computers work from a many-worlds perspective? 19:22:29 Phantom_Hoover_: the way they normally do? 19:22:35 if you consider the probaiblity distribution then the output is a continous function (which is incomparable to the discrete output of a turing machine) 19:22:41 elliott, ... 19:22:42 Phantom_Hoover_: i prefer many worlds to copenhagen FWIW 19:22:56 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 19:22:58 elliott: I understand what you are saying about biocentrism. In my opinion it is a philosophical position, not a scientific one. Some people disagree. In my opinion however, biocentrism is wrong, the better way is it creates each-other and itself by causality loop. 19:23:02 also: weird... physically classical mechanics is continuous and quantum is discrete: but the computational models are switched! 19:23:03 OK, so how does one view quantum computers from many worlds? 19:23:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:23:08 zzo38: why is life relevant 19:23:15 zzo38: why not the universe and rocks create each other 19:23:20 zzo38: why not the universe and mountains create each other 19:23:23 why the universe and life? 19:23:26 can you defend that at all? 19:23:29 I thought many worlds /was/ copenhagen 19:23:31 Phantom_Hoover_: I don't understand the question. 19:23:38 j-invariant: no, copenhagen is "magic physical wave-function collapse" 19:23:39 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 19:23:44 elliott: Rocks too! Mountains too! But their kind of free will is lesser because it is lesser usable. It is more solid state. 19:23:52 zzo38: ok just checking 19:23:59 rocks created the universe because they have free will? 19:24:04 but not really because they don't have free enough will? 19:24:06 But if the hard problem did not exist then neither would the universe. 19:24:08 you are crazy. 19:24:18 Therefore, life is required too, for certain definitions of "life". 19:24:19 and your theory is incomprehensible. 19:24:24 I am against many worlds because it makes my excuse for not doing homework fallacious. 19:24:24 zzo38: hard problem of consciouness? 19:24:34 Phantom_Hoover_: :D 19:24:41 I support any theory that gets me out of homework. 19:24:42 j-invariant: Yes (actually a slight variation of such). 19:26:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:26:30 Or, maybe, it should be called the "hard mystery"? 19:26:48 I mean, with Copenhagen I can say "ah, but I used a quantum RNG to decide whether or not to do my homework, so you can't observe it without collapsing the waveform which makes it your fault if I haven't done it." 19:26:49 zzo38: can you explain it 19:27:00 Phantom_Hoover_: Do you actually say that. 19:27:26 elliott, I tried it on my physics teacher, who was amused enough that I dodged a detention. 19:27:41 Phantom_Hoover_: i was unaware that that was even possible 19:27:51 I don't understand many worlds though 19:28:01 j-invariant: No. It is unexplainable. 19:28:15 elliott, amusing teachers or dodging detentions? 19:28:24 any two photon/antiphoton(which is just a photon again) pairs in different universes can interact 19:28:30 if you measure everything at the end, you do not have a function <-- that's afaik what you do. and while some of the result may be random, not all needs to be. or may only be different with a bounded probability. so you can use it to compute. 19:28:34 It has nothing to do with how smart you are, though. 19:28:48 then why is it that there is not so much random noise throughout the universe to ruin everything? 19:28:53 Phantom_Hoover_: dodging detention by being a smartass :) 19:29:06 oerjan: that's what I started with but coppro objected 19:29:07 zzo38: nothing is unexplainable except the meaningless. 19:29:13 elliott, it's worked surprisingly well so far. 19:29:16 * elliott waits for oerjan to pounce on him for that. 19:29:45 my car froze to the parking 19:30:49 elliott: i might pounce if i understood it ;D 19:32:02 j-invariant: note, by "everything", you should mean "all the final qubits". you certainly don't measure the quantum state function. 19:32:15 Conclusion: we need to find the number of Canada's men in white coats as soon as possible. 19:33:48 * Phantom_Hoover_ wishes he knew QM. 19:34:03 Let's say you have a binary state like |ab> with |00>=[1;0;0;0] and |11>=[0;0;0;1] then if you have [1;0;0;1] and then normalized then are dependent on each other. Except that for quantum free will you need an infinite state vector that describes things that do not exist, even inside of the non-existent universe to which is being referred. Whether or not this number is countably infinite is unknown, but it is infinite. 19:35:51 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders if he should bother even to parse that, let alone interpret it. 19:36:34 "Interpret" really isn't the word to use in the context of extracting meaning from language. 19:36:35 Phantom_Hoover_: How well do you understand Dirac notation? 19:37:05 After all, you're really compiling from words to brainese. 19:37:40 elliott, do XChat's ignores persist when you close it? 19:38:02 No, they do not. 19:38:47 Phantom_Hoover_: Can you place the ignores in an initialization file? 19:38:56 zzo38: I donot know what you mean by quantum free will 19:39:03 Phantom_Hoover_: yes they do 19:39:03 Noöne does 19:39:12 zzo38: but I think it's not the same free will as in Conways Free will theorem 19:39:17 elliott, hmm, my ignore list was certainly clear. 19:39:30 And I ignored Mathnerd a while ago... 19:39:37 j-invariant: But I explained it a bit! Try to do the math and see if that helps. 19:39:44 zzo38: there is no math in whaty ou said. 19:40:02 elliott: There is math in what I said. 19:40:21 zzo38: what math?? 19:40:39 The two kets? 19:41:14 j-invariant: The math for quantum physics. I didn't write out all the equations but you can find them in various books or Wikipedia, and then work them with the changes I have specified to see what happens. 19:41:40 zzo38: you would have to write up this whole idea in a .txt or something - but don't do that if you don't want to 19:42:11 zzo38: unfortunately you have been unable to give a coherent explanation of the "theory" to even _near_ the detail required for anyone else to even begin to try to understand it. 19:42:18 j-invariant: Or, perhaps, a TeX document so that I can include mathematical formulas in it. 19:42:23 yes] 19:42:48 zzo38, why, exactly, do you hate LaTeX? 19:43:28 elliott: Actually you can understand it but you have to do it yourself. Not everything is explainable in words directly. Therefore you have to do it indirectly. 19:44:07 Phantom_Hoover_: I have tried LaTeX it doesn't work well. Also LaTeX is too much too many things. And even Plain TeX is slightly large, but I use Plain TeX it is OK. 19:44:19 I really liek the music on ACSMZXTO 19:45:47 j-invariant: You do? Which levels have you reached yet? (Note this is a full length game and difficult, with 90 screens. Other games I have created are short ones that are more like arcade games or level puzzle games.) 19:46:07 zzo38: that's as far as I have got - I am not good at these games at all but it is fun 19:47:27 j-invariant: Right. You could try the CGA Collection games, in which you can try for win/lose/score and try various levels and stuff, because they are a different kind of games. (You need a DOS emulator to run them) 19:47:56 (Or else, boot into FreeDOS if you don't mind doing that) 19:48:20 I don't what happens when I push the switch 19:48:40 j-invariant: What switch are you refering to? 19:48:45 zzo38: please link to a precise description of your theory 19:49:03 coppro: I don't have one yet. Sorry. 19:49:14 * pikhq would like to stab everyone who writes emulators using a plugin architecture. 19:49:26 both of them on the screen with the person who wants a flashy diamnd 19:49:46 pikhq: why pray tell 19:50:24 coppro: It makes using the emulator a royal pain, and simply *having* a plugin architecture usually compromises emulation accuracy and compatibility. 19:50:33 j-invariant: They make the doors near the flashy diamond to be passable. 19:50:41 (You need all three switches) 19:50:55 (I say "usually" because it is of course *possible* to do that right, but nobody ever does.) 19:51:41 oh but I can't read the red switch 19:52:21 j-invariant: Yes, you have done it wrong. Hint: You *need* to find the purple keycard. (Hint: It is behind the tree.) 19:52:34 in a different screen? 19:52:50 Seriously, have you *tried* Playstation emulation? 19:53:03 j-invariant: No, a tree on the same screen. 19:53:25 oh I see!! 19:53:36 But if you have touched even one switch you have missed it and have to restore the saved game file. 19:54:49 there doesn't seem to be anything to do with the purple keycard 19:55:28 j-invariant: The purple keycard is not used in this level, but it is important to go behind the tree where it is found. 19:56:01 to move the green slime somewhere? 19:56:51 j-invariant: Yes. 19:57:13 where? 19:58:19 j-invariant: Do you know how the transporters work? Or how the potions work? 19:58:44 not really no 20:00:25 OK. If a transporter is blocked (and the blocking object cannot be pushed out of the way), you are transported through to the corresponding one facing in the other direction at the other end (regardless of whether or not the other one is blocked in the pointing direction; but it must not be blocked in the opposite direction (where you end up from the other transport)). (Pushable objects can also be transported.) 20:00:35 * Phantom_Hoover_ hates it when people say "two is the only even prime" as if it's interesting. 20:01:42 Phantom_Hoover_: it is more interesting than it seems 20:01:50 Phantom_Hoover_: I saw the same thing on a Jyte claim. At first I believed it but now I think "two is the only even prime" is in fact an interesting statement there are some important theorems which do not work without considering this fact fundamentally. 20:01:57 j-invariant, how? 20:02:16 It follows trivially from the definitions of primality and evenness. 20:02:36 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes it does follow. That doesn't mean it is not important though! 20:02:46 three is the only threven prime 20:03:03 "two is the oddest prime" 20:03:05 And 5 is the only prime that ends with '5' in base 10. 20:03:40 oerjan: wat 20:03:40 Phantom_Hoover_: damn right 20:03:57 pumpkin: oh god you're in here too? 20:03:58 INFLUX 20:04:02 elliott, DENY IT AT YOUR RISK 20:04:09 7 is the only prime that ends in 7 in base 14 20:04:10 s/RISK/PERIL/ 20:04:18 <3 base 14. 20:04:25 elliott: IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE WHERE PEOPLE CARE MORE ABOUT THREE THAN TWO 20:04:43 *ALTERNATE 20:05:03 Phantom_Hoover_: Those statements are correct, and seemingly similar, but actually there is an important meaning for "2 is the only even prime" in some other mathematical stuff. 20:05:22 oerjan: threven is the best type of number 20:05:28 oerjan: can we talk about threven numbers daily 20:05:45 What about BASE 14? 20:06:00 elliott: sure we _can_ 20:06:03 GODDAMN IT WHY AREN'T THERE CAPITAL NUMBERS 20:06:14 BASE !$ JUST DOESN'T CUT IT 20:06:15 i think it is entirely physically possible 20:06:21 oerjan: let's do so 20:06:30 Phantom_Hoover_: damn base 41 20:06:54 Naw, base 14 is best. 20:07:02 It's like base 10 except more seveny. 20:07:34 seven is the most severe prime 20:08:29 Seven is underappreciated. 20:09:07 brb 20:09:09 in ages 20:09:11 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:10:25 -!- A_time_warp_to_2 has joined. 20:10:31 Goddamn it. 20:10:42 -!- A_time_warp_to_2 has changed nick to Atimewarpto2020. 20:10:48 * Atimewarpto2020 opens 20:11:13 -!- elliott has joined. 20:11:21 Hey guys, I'm back! 20:11:24 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit). 20:11:28 * Atimewarpto2020 closes 20:11:30 -!- Atimewarpto2020 has left (?). 20:12:00 :Atimewarpto2020!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com :elliott!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com Look 20:12:09 zzo38: SSHHH 20:12:23 A phantom ho! 20:12:27 HOW STRANGE 20:12:31 Same as :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com 20:13:01 zzo38, actually, that 1 is an l. 20:13:45 Phantom_Hoover_: I do not know what you are refering to. 20:14:34 zzo38, how fortunate! I have no idea what you're talking about. 20:14:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 20:14:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 20:14:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:15:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 20:16:38 greetings, Phantom__Hoover obviously totally unrelated to Phantom_Hoover 20:17:00 NickServ refuses to let me group this nick. 20:17:07 Dunno why. 20:18:16 -!- Phantom__Hoover has left (?). 20:18:19 zzo38: I think your game is too hard for me but I will play more tommorow 20:18:53 j-invariant: Yes it is difficult and you might not understand well without some experience with MegaZeux. 20:20:58 Try the CGA Collection if you want to try some small games (not full length games), such as Star Stacker and so on. 20:21:57 'ma; 20:21:59 okay 20:23:10 I did make some games with Game Maker but I should rewrite them in C instead or something like that. Or possibly write a converter into a similar but free format. Such as: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/xnazzyball.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/DiskCatch2.png 20:24:00 Here is the CGA Collection files in case you are interested in the DOS files: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip 20:24:53 zzo38: the first one looks especially good 20:25:06 I don't know how you ahve the energy to write all these programs 20:25:20 my problem with programming is I give up quite early on 20:25:23 j-invariant: You mean of the screenshots? 20:25:32 nyes 20:26:09 (The icons are public domain, I just made a game of it. Also, it is possible to have multiple pieces in one place, so it cannot be done with ASCII mode.) 20:26:21 zzo38: if these are EXE files I don't think I can run them on ubuntu 20:26:25 j-invariant: Try running it in Wine if you want to, but I'm not sure it will work. 20:26:34 nevermind I will try them on a DOS emulator 20:26:56 Try the CGA Collection games in a DOS emulator. (The screenshots are for Windows games) 20:27:18 If you make any new levels for any of the CGA Collection games, please post your levels! 20:29:35 * Ilari goes and tries those CGA collection games first in DOSBox and then in rerecording x86 emulator... 20:30:15 hi 20:30:31 cheater99: Hay you! Stop cheating, please! 20:30:40 no cheating allowed!! 20:32:46 zzo38: this game FATHER.EXE made me laugh 20:34:04 j-invariant: Yes. It isn't really a very good game though, the others are better. But at least it can make you laugh. So, I did include it anyways. 20:35:17 j-invariant: Can you guess what you are supposed to do in the games which I posted screenshots, without playing these games? 20:35:54 j-invariant: You may look at CGACOLL.DOC (a plain text file) for more information about some of the games in the CGA Collection. 20:37:33 no I couldn't guess 20:38:57 j-invariant: In the first screenshot, your piece is a spider you have to pick up one of each suit. And don't get killed by a rock! 20:39:09 http://www.jetpower.co.uk/c5home.htm 20:39:19 JET-POWERED SINCLAIR C5 20:39:23 I WANT ONE 20:39:30 In the second screenshot, your piece is the white ball. You can move the white ball to make rectangle with each corner on the same color, to make hole and catch the colored balls. If colored balls collide with white ball then you lose a life. 20:40:03 In the third screenshot, you have to move the cursor to catch the disks and avoid touching skulls. The pieces all move by themself in various direction and speeds. 20:48:10 -!- Hilbert has joined. 20:49:21 Phantom_Hoover, what top speed? 20:49:34 Vorpal, no idea. 20:49:39 ah 20:49:42 jet engine mph 20:51:34 j-invariant: Have you added any levels to the existing games in CGA Collection? 20:52:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:52:49 no 20:53:19 j-invariant: Did you know, the MUTCHNAM game has ten billion built-in levels (yes, really, it does). 20:53:35 ??? 20:54:10 i've just encountered zombie spawner 20:54:14 what do? 20:54:16 Have you tried any of the games other than FATHER, yet? 20:54:35 zzo38: some of them 20:54:43 most of htem I could not figure out how to play 20:55:06 j-invariant: Which ones? Any opinion? Read CGACOLL.DOC for some instructions about the game. You can also ask me specific questions. 20:59:44 Please note that STARWARS is a 2-players game. You need someone else on the same computer in order to play. (The others are all 1-players) 21:03:18 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:05:41 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 21:12:58 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:27:36 zzo38, write an AI! 21:27:46 Which uses quantum free will! 21:29:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life. 21:30:27 Gregor, that statement made me suspicious. What is it? 21:30:42 The greatest six seconds of YOUR life, if you watch it. 21:32:33 * Phantom_Hoover watches ut 21:32:36 *it 21:32:54 GreaseMonkey: Greatest six seconds of my life. 21:32:58 Gregor: ^ 21:33:07 DAMMIT SMUXI 21:33:45 perhaps you could invest in implanting a nifty feature that xchat has? 21:33:54 "sort by last person talking" or something 21:34:31 Phantom_Hoover: I cannot write an AI that uses quantum free will, although I might be able to simulate it in a turing machine connected to a pure random number generator. However, turing machine is not even possible to be constructed in any real computer, only approximations can. (Also, I am not good enough at it to write such a program anyways) 21:34:52 zzo38, I was, in fact, mocking you. 21:35:29 GreaseMonkey: AKA "law of least surprise". 21:36:13 speaking of AI... do you know of an accurate way to filter that one particular troll's text in the Homestuck MSPA? 21:36:34 if you know the story... i'm talking about the one which has 8s all through her text and stuff 21:40:37 pikhq, well. 21:41:08 It can be harder to work out exactly which tab-completion is first with last-spoke, but you tend to get the one you want. 21:42:14 Phantom_Hoover: Last-spoke is generally going to be what you want, and it will usually have *unsurprising* behavior. 21:42:33 Oh, right. 21:42:39 I agree. 21:43:08 Whereas alphabetical sorting is often *very* surprising. 21:51:13 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 21:53:13 -!- Hilbert has joined. 21:55:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life. <-- I don't get it. Why what? 21:55:32 Vorpal does not know the joke. 21:55:50 Phantom_Hoover, oh wait is it "why did the chicken cross the road"... 21:55:54 Yes. 21:56:04 Phantom_Hoover, reason I didn't get it chicken != rooster 21:56:30 Nor does Vorpal know about chickens. 21:57:20 wait, it is in English isn't it? 21:57:21 hm 21:57:31 Phantom_Hoover, false friend across languages 21:57:36 Female chickens are hens, male chickens are roosters, both are chickens. 21:57:49 Otherwise we'd have no species name :P 21:58:22 Gregor, in Swedish kyckling (which sounds pretty close to chicken) means a chicken in the state when it has not yet grown up. When it is small and yellow and fluffy and so on 21:58:36 That's a chick :P 21:58:44 Gregor, in Swedish we use the name "höna" (close to "hen") for the species 21:59:05 It's ALMOST as if our languages aren't very closely related. 21:59:36 Gregor, more like they are but someone used a cross linked cable. 21:59:41 X-D 22:00:19 Here in Finland it's "kana" for the species in general or the female animals (so chicken/hen), and "kukko" for a rooster/cock. 22:00:33 fizzie, yes, but Finnish doesn't count. 22:00:34 fizzie, and for young birds? 22:00:43 Not being Indo-European and all that. 22:02:46 Vorpal: Well, "tipu", but that could be some non-chick little bird too. (It's also one verb form of "tippua", to drop. Which I guess is a slightly colloquial variant of "pudota", also to drop.) 22:03:15 Cf. pääsiäistipu, http://www.nutriciababy.fi/puuhanurkka/fi_FI/paasiainen/_files/78306002090656095/default/tipu.jpg 22:03:16 It's also a somewhat dated word for "chick" as in "girl". 22:03:40 That too, though I don't think I've ever called a person that. 22:04:10 Yes, it's quite dated. I don't think I've ever even heard it said. :-P 22:04:34 Maybe in some olden-times Finnish movie. 22:05:02 Incidentally, is the easter chick thing an international thing? Mostly I hear about the rabbit everywhere. 22:05:47 uh can't say I recall any easter chick 22:05:49 try google? 22:05:55 I guess the bunny just gets better press. 22:06:04 Page 1 of about 126,000 results (0.07 seconds). 22:06:05 it does make more sense than bunny when you think about it though 22:06:15 I don't hear much about easter chicks here in Finland either. :-P 22:06:19 Usually when I think of easter chicks, I think of godawfully bad pseudomarshmallows. 22:06:26 Over two million results for the bunny. 22:06:42 it is an easter rabbit in Sweden 22:06:51 Deewiant: Oh, we used to have those in 'rairuoho'. 22:07:08 I don't think we ever did. 22:07:17 We have the egg-rabbit too, but the chick is also easter-related. 22:07:40 wait, rabbit might be wrong word 22:07:44 * Vorpal blames google translate 22:08:08 Rabbit is the right word in every context except this :P 22:08:08 hare vs. kanin in Swedish. I'm not sure what hare translates to 22:08:16 it is larger 22:08:31 Wait, you have an Easter HARE? 22:08:48 We have an Easter "bunny" (which is a six-year-old's word for "rabbit") 22:08:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryegrass doesn't list our "traditional Easter decoration" use at all. :/ 22:08:52 ah yes the word is hare in english too 22:08:54 right 22:09:18 Gregor, yes we have an Easter hare. Could beat your bunny to pulp I bet ;) 22:09:29 (wait, that sounded so awfully wrong) 22:09:34 Ours is a bunny ("pääsiäispupu") too. 22:10:15 How many games are played with a scoring side and a non-scoring side (or more than one of one or of both)? 22:10:26 also compare pronouncing påskhare and påskkanin. The latter just becomes silly. You need to make a pause in the middle kind of thing 22:10:43 påskeharen in norwegian too. although i had the impression it's really an american import... 22:10:52 zzo38: Nearly every game in the family of badminton, volleyball, tennis, or other "net" games are played like that. 22:10:52 oerjan, yes I think it is 22:12:07 Fikipedia says in Switzerland they have an easter-egg-cuckoo, and in some parts of Germany a goose, a stork or a fox. 22:12:17 we had witches at Easter traditionally 22:12:21 fizzie, Fiki? 22:12:28 Vorpal: fi.wikipedia. 22:12:31 ah 22:12:33 I shortcutted a bit. 22:12:50 (Had the Finnish bunny article open.) 22:13:21 * Gregor once-again trolls the channel with http://codu.org/wiki/N-in-a-row%20game 22:13:22 Gregor: um i thought both sides could score in most of those games :/ 22:13:37 oerjan: Yeah, but in any given volley there's a scoring side and a non-scoring side. 22:14:06 Do any cards games do? 22:15:00 In any card game where players take turns you could consider each turn having one scoring and the rest non-scoring sides. 22:15:25 -!- Hilbert_ has joined. 22:15:43 it's hilbert! 22:15:48 arisen from the grave! 22:16:24 fizzie: Yes it can, but is there more explicit cases where you do that in many turns? (And anyways even in card game where players take turns, it is not necessary only the player taking turns who is scoring) 22:16:36 Gregor, make f into whether or not the Bifro-equivalent Brainfuck program halts. 22:16:57 Phantom_Hoover: Har-durp-har. 22:17:11 Wait, that's not very good. 22:17:25 -!- Hilbert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:17:26 -!- Hilbert_ has changed nick to Hilbert. 22:17:29 Since you have either 0 or 1 turns. 22:17:49 -!- azaq231 has joined. 22:18:37 Obviously the best possible function is monotonically decreasing. 22:19:01 I can't recall examples offhand, but there's such a huge variety of board games, I'm sure some of them have scoring mechanisms like that. 22:19:02 Phantom_Hoover, what if you can't decide if it halts or not? 22:19:30 Phantom_Hoover, it could mean waiting forever, no? 22:19:32 I know of one card game where only one side is scoring side for a long time before you switch. 22:19:37 while test running it 22:19:46 Vorpal, that's the *point*. 22:19:52 Dominion's (a card game) single-player turns can sometimes take a while (they have three phases), but perhaps not quite "a long time". 22:20:02 Phantom_Hoover, sounds like a bad point 22:20:09 brb 22:20:11 fizzie: Not what I meant. 22:20:19 But good point, though. 22:20:34 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:21:08 According to recent report (less than 48 hours old), APINIC has 44 509 184 addresses in its pool... About 11M addresses to go until it should allocate :-) 22:22:11 And in Arkham Horror either all players go insane or win the game, so there's not exactly a scoring side (or a particular winner) at all. 22:22:16 Ilari: Which we can expect to be how long? 22:25:29 elliottt is not here 22:25:30 Dangi 22:25:36 Incidentally, I recently played one game which needed one person to handle "running" the game, and that was done so that each person took a turn being that one, and before starting his/her turn selected one of the other players; at the end of his/her turn (when it came time for the scoring for that round) he/she got the same amount of points as the player he/she selected got. 22:25:42 Also, how did I sleep from 7AM to 5PM 22:26:35 Sgeo__: a mere 10 hours! 22:27:16 darn reddit is not loading again 22:27:19 -!- azaq23 has joined. 22:27:24 -!- Sgeo__ has changed nick to Sgeo. 22:29:00 -!- azaq231 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:29:28 Ilari, so why have you got such interest in IPv4 exhaustion? 22:29:58 it's because ipv4 killed his parents 22:30:27 In the card game Armchair Cricket, the scoring side remains scoring side until they either declare or lose ten wickets, whichever comes first. The other side cannot score even when it is their turn to play a card. There are different variants as to what happens when the deck is exhausted. 22:33:58 For APNIC, at the same time, APNIC had 4463681625587712 IPv6 /64s in its pool... 22:35:28 Just generic "pass the popcorn". :-) 22:35:40 (not that I actually eat popcorn...) :-) 22:36:48 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 22:36:51 -!- azaq231 has joined. 22:37:46 According to recent report (less than 48 hours old), APINIC has 44 509 184 addresses in its pool... About 11M addresses to go until it should allocate :-) <-- what is the current estimate on date for ipv4 running out? 22:37:50 globally I mean 22:38:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:41:43 -!- elliott has joined. 22:45:20 Can you tell me whether I wrote the exception similar to font exception correctly? 22:50:02 Vorpal: Oh, completely coincidentally, but since it involves your country... we'll be visiting Stockholm next Saturday. 22:50:12 -!- Hilbert has joined. 22:50:37 fizzie: AVOID VORPAL AT ALL COSTS 22:50:45 Hilbert: got a hotel room free? 22:51:12 (I'm assuming you want to be keeping track as to what sort of riffraff enters/exits your country.) 22:51:42 12:12:23 A phantom ho! 22:51:43 :D 22:51:44 elliott: I wouldn't recognize a Vorpal if one bit me, anyway. 22:51:58 fizzie: They're really stupid and hate TNT. 22:52:06 Can't miss 'em. 22:52:32 fizzie, easy to recognise fizzies from what I heard though. 22:52:59 Yeah, I've heard all kinds of rumours too. 22:53:05 fizzie, not that I'm anywhere near Stockholm though 22:54:24 I think our plan involved a visit at det där kungliga slottet of yours; having no royalty or royalty-related stuff of our own, us Finns have to "appropriate" from neighbours. 22:54:48 12:54:10 i've just encountered zombie spawner 22:54:49 12:54:14 what do? 22:54:52 nooga: destroy it if you wish, loot the chest 22:54:55 you found a dungeon 22:55:09 sure, reddit, try to appease me by changing to a funnier heavy load picture 22:55:27 13:29:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life. 22:55:30 was sceptical 22:55:32 but yup Gregor 22:55:34 you're riht 22:55:35 oerjan, eh? 22:55:35 best six seconds 22:55:36 *right 22:56:14 oerjan, what was the old on and what is the new one? 22:56:15 Vorpal: reddit isn't loading. but the "sorry we're under heavy load" picture just changed to a new one. 22:56:45 made by newly reddit famous Sure_Ill_Draw_That, apparently 22:57:06 oerjan, it loads for me 22:57:09 oerjan, so I can't check 22:57:15 Vorpal: try DDoSing 22:57:19 elliott, .... 22:57:36 ...still not loading 22:57:51 ah now i see it 22:58:00 or is it 22:58:15 i conclude that sure_ill_draw_that has a crushing fetish 22:58:23 it is the only explain 22:58:23 elliott, how do you prevent the mouse from leaving the MC window? 22:58:31 elliott: he's done it before? 22:58:35 Sgeo: um it does that automatically 22:58:36 oerjan: nope 22:58:38 oerjan: sample size of 1 22:58:44 elliott, not for me 22:58:47 O KAY 22:58:51 Sgeo: then you fail. try linux 22:59:17 Sgeo, did you just place a sign? 22:59:19 Could it have something to do with the old version? 22:59:31 Vorpal, I don't have a legal copy yet, so no, I'm not online 22:59:34 Oh, no 22:59:36 what 22:59:44 what has legal copy to do with signs? 22:59:53 what you mentioned to me happens sometimes when I just placed a sign, a click in the window solves it. 22:59:53 Thought you were asking if some sign you saw on your server was mine 23:00:09 nope 23:00:32 psht like Sgeo will get into our server :D 23:00:37 it is now closed to everyone who isn't a finn 23:00:41 damned finn privilege 23:00:48 elliott, is it? 23:00:51 yes 23:00:57 elliott, are you still on it? 23:00:58 What, do you think I'm going to bomb everything? 23:01:05 Vorpal: yes, just no extra people can come on 23:01:21 Opening/closing the inventory helps in mouse-capturing for me sometimes when it loses it. 23:01:53 Also, when I last saved, I had no coal, and ran out of fuel for my emergency lighting furnace 23:01:55 Vorpal: the old picture was the reddit alien carrying a stone block by the pyramids 23:02:03 oerjan, ah 23:02:06 And I heard footsteps that weren 23:02:09 weren't mne 23:02:10 mine 23:02:37 Sgeo: furnaces don't light 23:02:40 so lol 23:02:40 well 23:02:44 not enough to stop monsters i don't think 23:03:02 Wait, so my idea for ecological housing is unsound? 23:03:02 :( 23:03:37 Logs set on fire burn indefinitely if surrounded by the proper sort of blocks. 23:03:54 That gives a reasonable amount of light, I think. 23:04:07 "Furnaces are very useful for providing light if you have wood but no coal to make torches with." 23:04:08 Hm. 23:04:12 Still seems silly though. 23:04:22 proper sort of blocks? 23:04:38 Sgeo: furnaces don't light 23:04:41 Erm, yes they do. 23:05:01 Yes yes so they do. 23:05:02 Active furnace seems to emit one level less light than a torch. 23:05:11 Bit of a waste though. 23:05:41 My cursor is not staying in the window at all 23:05:51 Sgeo: Surround a log by (say) cobblestone, set it on fire; a permanent fireplace out of renewable materials. 23:06:07 fizzie, awesome 23:06:20 Wait, where do you get the fire from? 23:06:40 Sgeo: Flint and steel... 23:06:42 (Or LAVA) 23:06:45 Uh, well, flint and steel usually. But you only need that one. 23:06:50 (Note: Lava is not renewable.) 23:07:04 You can go and put the lava back, though. 23:07:13 But the bucket needs iron. 23:07:22 lofr: 23:07:23 http://www.exploringbinary.com/php-hangs-on-numeric-value-2-2250738585072011e-308/ 23:07:32 and better yet.. after you read the whole thing, read comment 5. 23:08:01 Possibly you could just build your place around a natural lava lake/fall you don't touch. 23:08:03 Well, a cost to the environment of 3 iron ore that ends up giving so much back.... 23:08:26 Gives cobblestone, and fire, and 23:08:39 fizzie, I did not even think of that 23:09:42 Or you could just nuke everything. 23:13:41 elliott: mc has nukes? :D 23:13:49 oerjan: TNT is close enough 23:13:52 oerjan: you can even fire it 23:13:54 (with other TNT) 23:14:03 flies quite far too 23:14:20 oerjan: you should start playing! then you'll do absolutely _nothing_ else in a day 23:15:19 MC needs spaceships 23:15:26 i doubt my hands will cooperate with that for very long 23:15:27 And airplanes 23:15:31 I know there's a mod 23:15:36 I''d like something better than a mod 23:16:34 Sgeo: Better than a mod? 23:17:10 Not crappily done like in MoveCraft, and native to MC 23:17:29 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:18:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:19:08 Sgeo: How's MoveCraft crappy, and how does nativeness matter 23:23:25 elliott, MoveCraft sucks because it can't move the ROU efficiently! 23:23:29 23:23:38 apart from that. 23:23:59 Also because it empties chests when you use it and it can't even move a TNT cannon without being weird. 23:26:24 I mean, how am I meant to man the HHI war machine *now*? 23:26:55 Phantom_Hoover: As a faithful HHI employee ... I am sort of relieved that you failed. 23:27:26 elliott, that's sedition! 23:27:34 What would I have possibly done? 23:27:56 Phantom_Hoover: Blown up everything? 23:28:26 elliott, what things do you have that I would have blown up? 23:29:32 Phantom_Hoover: I LIKE TO LIVE IN A WORLD WITHOUT TOO MUCH CARNAGE 23:29:32 So what's this about PHP having its own analogue to the Top Secret SMP Bug? 23:29:35 -!- cheater99 has joined. 23:29:42 A PREFER A MODERATE AMOUNT OF CARNAGE AT MOST 23:30:02 elliott, what about no carnage? 23:30:18 Top Secret SMP Bug? 23:30:27 CARNAGE 23:30:37 CARNAGE FOR THE CARNAGE GOD 23:30:43 Sgeo, it's Top Secret because of the carnage that would ensue if it was made publi. 23:30:46 *public 23:30:58 Phantom_Hoover, good idea against PHP 23:31:13 Vorpal: Carnage is great. 23:31:24 elliott, but only in small amounts? 23:31:26 Basically, it's possible to crash *any* SMP server if you can see the sky in it. 23:31:39 http://cs-people.bu.edu/stevec/cs101/01summer/forms_calc.html 23:31:39 Phantom_Hoover, don't reveal too much 23:31:59 I want to see if I can crash this but I don't have the evil. 23:32:53 Phantom_Hoover, "have the evil", does that mean "I don't know how" or "I'm not evil enough"? 23:32:57 Welp, it doesn't work. 23:33:30 Phantom_Hoover, I'm assuming that that bug will be fixed soonn? 23:33:38 Sgeo, not a chance. 23:33:39 Phantom_Hoover: you mean it doesn't crash or that it does? 23:33:45 Phantom_Hoover, lolwat? 23:33:45 Vorpal: re don't reveal too much: fizzie has explained it all in channel before 23:33:50 oerjan, it doesn't work as a calculator. 23:33:52 Sgeo: There is no way we are telling Notch. 23:33:57 elliott, ah 23:34:00 Sgeo: One, it is useful when used maturely on our server. 23:34:00 Sgeo, we're keeping it secret. 23:34:00 Phantom_Hoover: anyway it supposedly only crashes on 32-bit machines 23:34:07 Sgeo: Two, Notch is impossibly bad at coding. 23:34:26 It's incredibly unlikely he wouldn't do something very stupid when fixing a bug that basically undermines the entire server architecture. 23:34:33 Phantom_Hoover: ah. 23:34:49 If someone else figures it out we'll tell Notch all we know but before then it's probably a very bad idea. 23:34:51 There is an appeal in making it public and watching the world burn, but we could be completely screwed by Notch afterwards. 23:35:02 elliott, see /msg 23:35:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:37:11 I think I've seen comments that suggest it might get accidentally fixed at some point anyway. 23:37:45 (In his stale TODO list or somewhere.) 23:37:58 fizzie, nooooooooooooo 23:38:16 In revenge for wrecking our teleporter, I suggest we murder him. 23:38:20 There's quite many entried that say "before beta" that are completely not done on that list. :p 23:39:46 "Thwart hacking!" 23:39:55 Vague... 23:40:01 We could just write a teleportamating plugin. 23:40:05 So which one should we worry about? 23:40:06 It'd be less laggy too. :p 23:40:53 http://www.toodledo.com/views/public.php?id=td4b49fbf9c05a0 23:40:55 We do have a server-side teleporter already, if someone'd just motivate ineiros to write down the allowed destinations. 23:41:12 fizzie, I don't see anything that fits. 23:41:44 Phantom_Hoover: Click on those funny icons that give you more detailed descriptions. 23:42:03 The intuitive page-with-red-block ones. 23:42:17 Ah, right. 23:42:32 fizzie: I mean an arbitrary-coord teleporter. 23:42:41 fizzie: Also it's not writing, you actually have to go there and say /addkit or something. 23:43:00 elliott, vulnerable to the same bug, surely? 23:43:26 elliott: I think you can just edit the flat text file too. 23:43:42 Though the command way is I guess the official way. 23:44:08 elliott: has that sshc guy said anything since? 23:44:10 Hard to guesstimate Y values and orientation and so on. 23:44:12 We could just write a teleportamating plugin. <-- likely a heck of a lot more reliable too! 23:44:35 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:44:52 Phantom_Hoover: I don't see why. 23:44:57 It doesn't _have_ to send all the chunks in-between down. 23:44:58 fizzie: Also it's not writing, you actually have to go there and say /addkit or something. <-- no, it is editing a file 23:45:00 Nether travel doesn't for instance. 23:45:03 When you return from Nether. 23:45:10 elliott, hmm. 23:45:10 It just generates the one chunk and gives it to you, locally. 23:45:12 at least that is what I did for my local test server 23:45:22 So all it has to do is x=foo; y=foo; if (!chunkexists()) genchunk(); sendchunk(); 23:45:25 *z=foo; 23:45:36 So the bug comes from the fact that it's trying to squeeze all of the intermediate chunks down your connection? 23:46:02 Phantom_Hoover, or for having to process them that rapidly even 23:46:07 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:46:29 I really should try it with some *really* huge coördinates at some point. 23:46:44 Mrf, how can I show the dynamically linked libraries on OS X... 23:47:20 On a local server, obviously/ 23:47:29 Phantom_Hoover: Aww, I thought you meant on the server. 23:48:35 Here's a difference between Minecraft and Active Worlds: People built stuff in AW's heyday, almost 10 years ago or more. Almost all of it still stands, to that day. The stuff you build in Minecraft... won't. 23:48:36 I mean, given that we found Cthulhu at a distance which was practically *reachable*. 23:48:51 Sgeo, what the hell? 23:49:05 What's destroying it? Server shutdown due to boredom? 23:49:11 Phantom_Hoover, yes 23:49:22 Sgeo: Guess what, AW's servers will go down one day too. 23:49:24 Who's going to keep running private servers 10 years from now? 23:49:35 Sgeo: And I bet there were quite a few data losses in the early days of AW. 23:49:56 I wonder if I can make shutup somehow convey the messages more annoyingly. 23:50:27 Is shutup still working? 23:50:47 Yes 23:51:00 Yes. 23:51:40 Phantom_Hoover, Cthulhu? 23:52:01 Sgeo, IN JOKE 23:52:04 GO AWAY LOSER 23:52:39 Sgeo, from the Lovecraft mythos 23:52:49 Vorpal, I know that 23:53:02 They said they found Cthulhu in MC? I guess that's related to the bug? 23:53:16 Sgeo, in joke! 23:55:19 how did Sgeo see Cthulhu 23:55:30 I mean, given that we found Cthulhu at a distance which was practically *reachable*. 23:55:31 elliott, he didn't? 23:55:55 oh you meant the mention 23:56:00 yeah Phantom_Hoover said it 23:56:11 cthulhu is everywhere you want to see 23:56:13 But yes, 100km is not impossibly far in MC terms. 23:56:30 Phantom_Hoover, sssh! 23:56:33 You can easily make 10km in less than an hour. 23:56:45 -target-cc-opt darwin \ 23:56:45 '-I/usr/local/include 23:56:45 -I/opt/local/include 23:56:46 Phantom_Hoover, depends on terrain 23:56:47 -I/sw/include' \ 23:56:49 ugh 23:56:51 TODO: fix that 23:57:14 elliott, build system of something? of what? 23:57:20 Vorpal, over 10km terrain evens out. 23:57:27 Vorpal: from the mlton binary build 23:58:07 Phantom_Hoover, anyway it was more than 100 km. Both in distance and in manhattan distance 23:58:43 Vorpal, I'm basing this on time to (4000,4000) anyway. 23:58:53 Phantom_Hoover, right 23:59:14 * elliott tries out how new mlton 23:59:17 without that fix, but 23:59:21 that can be a patch in a minute 23:59:26 Phantom_Hoover, I guess if you just run. Sure. But you end up going around mountains and so on 23:59:44 and that is if you aren't out searching at the time 23:59:52 (which I were) 2011-01-05: 00:00:00 (err, was) 00:00:10 Error: No such file or directory - usr/local 00:00:11 hm 00:00:29 oh maybe it doesn't extract the tgz 00:00:30 Vorpal, anyway, my point is that if you were trying to get to (100000,100000) by walking, you could make it without exerting superhuman time and effort. 00:00:43 Phantom_Hoover, well that is true 00:00:49 * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the Towards Dawns guy is. 00:00:49 indeed, you could walk there 00:00:51 Phantom_Hoover, not very fast though 00:00:58 in maybe one or two real days 00:01:17 elliott, quite. I'd say 3 because I'm a pessimist 00:01:49 Why'd Towards Dawns end, BtW? 00:01:52 it did?? 00:01:58 Someone should make an arbitrary teleport plugin and go to the edge of the world 00:02:29 yes I doubt notch tested it 00:02:37 server will probably crash 00:02:43 elliott, there hasn't been an update since forever. 00:03:00 Sgeo, that's basically the nature of the Top Secret SMP Bug. 00:03:14 Except it requires only client-side manipulation. 00:03:31 Phantom_Hoover, you need to rename it to "not so very top secret" 00:03:31 So, there's a certain coordinate that crashes the world? 00:03:42 And it's within walking distance for noncheaters? 00:03:43 Sgeo, no. 00:04:01 walking wouldn't do it 00:04:39 So, mod client to move very quickly to destination 00:04:45 //goto 100000 100000 is what did it, but that was elliott just banging the two largest numbers he could into the teleporter and seeing what happened. 00:05:16 *could think of 00:05:49 So, no explorations of the edge of the world until this gets fixed? 00:05:59 //goto works by sending (assuming your location is (x,y,z)) location packets for (x,128,z) then (x',128,y'). 00:06:12 Sgeo, no, it's the suddenness which causes the crash. 00:06:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:06:35 You can legitimately get there plenty off ways. 00:07:28 Error: File exists - /usr/local/Cellar/mlton/20100608 00:07:29 wut 00:08:27 Phantom_Hoover: We should travel to 2^64 sometime and see if the world really wraps around. *note: terrible idea 00:08:40 elliott, *AWESOME 00:08:43 elliott, why terrible idea? 00:08:48 * Sgeo wants to go too! 00:08:49 Sgeo: Server would crash incredibly. 00:08:51 With //goto. 00:08:56 Walking there is ... beyond impossible. 00:09:05 So fix the bug, then we'll go 00:09:07 * Phantom_Hoover still maintains that Minecraft takes place on a Banks Orbital. 00:09:13 Sgeo: That would break teleportation... 00:09:17 elliott, even with server side goto I suspect it might crash it badly 00:09:17 Teleportation IS the bug. 00:09:22 And all MC worlds are the *same* Orbital 00:09:23 Vorpal: probably 00:09:23 *! 00:09:28 IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE 00:09:32 elliott, best do it on local testing server and so on 00:09:32 Fix the bug that teleportation causes crashes, then we'll go 00:09:41 Sgeo: Basically unfixable. 00:09:46 At least without hacks in the server. 00:09:47 elliott, different parts of same huge planet! 00:09:50 Teleportation Should Not Work. 00:09:50 err 00:09:52 Phantom_Hoover, ^ 00:09:57 elliott, put hacks in the server, then we'll go 00:10:01 FWIW: Even if you could travel 100000 a day, it would take 1.84 * 10^14 days to get to 2^64. 00:10:06 Sgeo: Shut up. It is not feasible. 00:10:16 Make it feasible. Then we'll go. 00:10:19 Vorpal, ORBITAL. 00:10:25 Phantom_Hoover, yes quite 00:10:27 Sgeo: There is basically no way to make it feasible. 00:10:34 Vorpal, Orbital != planet. 00:10:42 Phantom_Hoover, very true 00:11:05 Phantom_Hoover, and I suggest they share the same planet. reddit might be over at out 2^63,-1874 00:11:09 or such 00:11:15 Phantom_Hoover, we could never know! 00:11:33 Vorpal, OK, are you just going to verbosely repeat everything I say from now on? 00:11:36 Why? Why is it so impossible? 00:11:47 Phantom_Hoover, no 00:12:08 Vorpal, OK, you s/planet/orbital/ed. 00:12:18 *s/orbital/planet/ 00:12:55 Phantom_Hoover, well yes and I suggested this was feasible. Instead of that nonsense about two or more planets in same orbital 00:13:25 Phantom_Hoover, which I believe doesn't work 00:13:54 Vorpal, what the hell are you talking about. 00:15:09 Phantom_Hoover, aren't they basically the same as atomic orbitals but applied to space? I freely admit being better at small scale (atomic level) than at large scale (astronomy) 00:15:28 well not probability defined of course 00:15:31 Vorpal, OK, you have no idea what the hell I'm going on about. 00:15:32 (that wouldn't make much sense) 00:15:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_%28The_Culture%29 00:15:57 Phantom_Hoover, well you could have said 00:16:36 I did say *Banks* Orbital. 00:16:42 Which you evidently ignored. 00:16:52 * elliott lols. 00:17:01 Phantom_Hoover, you said " And all MC worlds are the *same* Orbital" 00:17:24 Phantom_Hoover, which line has "banks" 00:17:30 00:08 Phantom_Hoover still maintains that Minecraft takes place on a Banks Orbital. 00:17:35 Mere seconds before. 00:17:35 * Phantom_Hoover still maintains that Minecraft takes place on a Banks Orbital. 00:17:55 elliott, ah I see. hm I guess my ctcp filter suddely broke then 00:18:01 can someone do a /me to test? 00:18:22 * elliott what are you even talking about 00:18:36 * Phantom_Hoover thinks Vorpal is trying to cover from an embarrassing mistake. 00:18:42 *recover 00:18:53 * elliott probably 00:18:56 * elliott he's a fag 00:18:59 Phantom_Hoover, what was that correcting? 00:19:02 * elliott turds turds turds 00:19:05 I'll check log 00:19:06 * elliott FAGGOTRON MCTURDITURD 00:19:08 * elliott oh darn 00:19:10 * Phantom_Hoover yaaaaay, he can't see us! 00:19:11 * elliott NO DON'T 00:19:13 * elliott TURN BACK 00:19:16 * elliott DARKNESS WILL ENVELOP YOU 00:19:19 * Phantom_Hoover dammit, he's smarter than he looks.. 00:19:23 * elliott no he's not 00:19:26 ah apparently it is broken. Sigh I'll have to fix it. 00:19:26 * elliott turdy turdy turd 00:19:29 * elliott POOP TURD 00:19:32 * elliott aka vorpal 00:19:37 * elliott no don't fix it this is amazing 00:19:41 * Phantom_Hoover he's not *quite* as stupid as he makes out. 00:19:44 * elliott the best in fact 00:19:46 * elliott yes he is 00:19:56 right, there it works 00:19:58 * Phantom_Hoover OK HE IS NOT AS STUPID AS I THOUGHT 00:20:02 a missing negation in a test 00:20:07 * elliott TURD 00:20:15 * elliott TUUUUUUUUURD 00:20:54 oh, _turd_. i thought you said _hird_ 00:21:02 * oerjan runs away 00:21:03 Elliott Turd. 00:21:05 now to read up on missed bits in the log. I wonder what "* elliott the best in fact" was (the first line after the fix went into place) 00:21:17 * elliott TUUUUUURD 00:22:23 Phantom_Hoover, what is the onomatopoeic sound made by a car horn in English? 00:22:30 Honk? 00:22:34 ah okay 00:22:46 Phantom_Hoover, cross language joke at elliott's expense doomed to fail then 00:23:11 Is the Swedish onomatopoeia "turd". 00:23:16 Yes. 00:23:32 Vorpal: tut tut 00:23:39 Phantom_Hoover, no it is "tut" (with a long u sound, though not long as in ü of german, which is closer to our y) 00:23:50 Oh, "toot" is used too. 00:23:56 * oerjan expects cross language pun to whoosh over Vorpal's head 00:24:52 oerjan, how can that possibly wash over my head. Though it is ambig. I can decode that as two different things for English and Swedish. Or does Norwegian have a third one? 00:25:22 Vorpal: well i expect you to be oblivious about the english meaning >:) 00:25:30 In Norwegian it means "Swedes fail at humour". 00:25:37 -!- Cale has left (?). 00:25:40 oerjan, you were wrong 00:25:45 DARN 00:25:52 CURSES, FOILED AGAIN 00:26:11 oerjan, yes I blame it's shoddy API with no proper namespacing and overuse of macros 00:26:59 * Sgeo listens to the sample from the Dj WHO SHARES MY NAME 00:27:05 SORRY FOR CAPS 00:27:14 Sgeo: you should be golden then 00:30:12 Sgeo: haven't you listened to that like fifty times 00:30:23 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 00:30:30 Sgeo listens to it for comfort. 00:30:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:39:40 "The night was darker than usual. I could see no stars and not even the moon. At first I thought perhaps a large cloud was passing slowly overhead, but then, just before dawn, I realised I had just bumped 'F' and turned the draw distance to short." 00:42:04 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Seth+Gold%22&sa=N&tbs=nws:1,cd_min:2000,cd_max:2010,cdr:1 00:42:07 I am none of these Seths 00:42:08 elliott, what an anti-climax :D 00:48:35 https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/3817 \o/ 00:48:35 | 00:48:35 /< 01:03:33 oops 01:14:04 * elliott considers doing some coding in ATS 01:14:17 ATS? 01:16:08 oh god. 01:16:31 Sgeo: http://www.ats-lang.org/ fall in love with it without understanding the type theory and i'll kill you. 01:18:16 http://www.ats-lang.org/EXAMPLE/MISC/quicksort_list_dats.html proven quicksort in ats :) 01:18:18 elliott, why? 01:18:29 Sgeo: why what. 01:18:37 Would you kill me? 01:18:38 because the type theory behind is the whole reason it's interesting. 01:18:46 Sgeo: because you did it with Ur 01:18:56 When did I fall in love with Ur? 01:19:22 when you found out about it 01:19:24 I looked at it, felt a bit queasy, and left, without understanding the type theory 01:19:37 please tell me you didn't actually feel physically queasy. 01:19:47 I didn't 01:20:09 I have other emotional issues going on that make me feel physically queasy 01:20:48 Poor Alluded-To. 01:21:52 Nothing to do (well, little to do) with her 01:22:06 Well, hmm. Not exactly true 01:22:09 But she'll have to live with it! 01:22:16 Poor, poor A-.T. 01:22:27 A-.T. sounds like Katie ergo her name is Katie. 01:22:31 Katie Alluded-To Female. 01:22:40 Katf/ 01:22:56 s#/#?# 01:23:10 Sgeo: Katie A-.T.F. 01:23:15 *A-.T. F. 01:23:19 Now I'm going to sleep. 01:25:03 g'night. 01:25:05 GOHASKELL 01:25:06 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:34:30 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 01:51:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:51:41 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 01:52:41 Do you know in TeX, you might do: \kern\dimen7\endgroup\dimen7\lastkern\unkern 01:53:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:54:13 i don't. 01:54:27 cheater99: Well, now you can. 01:54:36 i still don't. 01:54:37 (That is, if you have TeX on your computer.) 01:55:14 cheater99: Is it because you have no TeX? 01:55:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:55:27 i _think_ Mr. cheater99 might be referring to the fact he has absolutely no clue what the commands there _do_. neither do i. 01:55:27 no, it is because i don't know. 01:55:48 oerjan: Do you know TeX? 01:55:52 oerjan: no 01:55:58 i'm more referring to the fact that i don't care much for tex :p 01:56:26 i know/knew enough _latex_ to get a few papers published. 01:57:09 oerjan: Are the commands I used not in LaTeX? These are primitive TeX commands, does LaTeX override them or have some other reason why you can't use it? 01:58:21 zzo38: well i've never used any of them in latex. i guess some of them might exist. 01:59:21 All five of them are primitive, so all of them will exist in LaTeX unless LaTeX overrides them. 02:00:31 i assume they're not used much because they're very low-level 02:00:51 Maybe. 02:05:07 My example is a kind of trick I made up for moving a number to the outside of a group without making it global. 02:05:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:09:04 -!- roconnor has joined. 02:26:54 -!- Hilbert has joined. 02:36:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 02:54:19 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 02:54:28 -!- roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:24:43 -!- Hilbert has joined. 03:50:20 zzo38, re the project - what's the link for the sources again 03:50:24 I want to take a look no 03:50:25 *now 04:02:44 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 04:06:32 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to zygohistomorphic. 04:08:16 -!- Hilbert has joined. 04:08:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:10:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:10:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:19:11 variable: http://sprunge.us/gFHT 04:22:48 -!- azaq231 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:28:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:29:28 variable: Is that the only file you want? Do you want to see the other files too? 04:30:03 zzo38, I'm looking at this one now 04:35:52 if(stack_ptr[0].is_string || stack_ptr[1].is_string) -> looks weird to me 04:36:12 I prefer something like if ( not is_number ) or something like that 04:37:27 zzo38, curious - what type of comments are you looking for? nitty stuff in the code or higher level? 04:37:53 -!- azaq23 has joined. 04:38:21 variable: "is_string" is the boolean field indicating whether it is a string or not; since it is initialized to zero, a string need not be allocated and it works very good (making all variable default to zero)! Perhaps I should explain that near where register_value is defined. 04:38:33 variable: I am looking for any kind of comments/question/suggestion you want to make. 04:39:02 zzo38, also - do you have a sample card ? 04:39:17 -!- j-invariant has joined. 04:39:34 and your roman numeral's algo fails when it comes to "M" 04:39:39 variable: Like I said, the program is not finished yet, so it produces no cards yet. (What I have does work though) 04:40:10 zzo38, yes - but I'd like to see how a card would be defined - even if its not produced yet 04:40:18 ie - what part would I use 04:40:47 variable: Yes I know the roman numeral algorithm fails (even way before "M"). But it is good enough up to XXXIX, which should be way more than you need for most sets of cards where you want to use roman numerals in the card titles. 04:41:11 (Any more than that and you would probably be defining the cards automatically by program anyways) 04:41:30 variable: OK, I will make an example of how a card might be defined: 04:41:52 zzo38, please don't take my criticism wrongly - I'm just throwing out things I see 04:42:02 one general note: spacing -- eeeek 04:42:22 variable: I am not being offended or taking it wrongly. It is OK to make your opinion to write how you want it. 04:43:30 fflush(stdout); --> I don't see the point 04:44:07 if(!fgets --> I prefer explicitness over brevity - but that is more stylistic 04:45:32 A very simple example of card input: http://sprunge.us/IYej (Note it might be slightly different in the end -- and this example is for Magic: the Gathering (but you can have things for other games too)) 04:45:35 if(buf[1]>' ') *b++=buf[1]|0x80; --> I would break this into multiple statements (separate out the increment for example) 04:46:25 zzo38, I imagine this is intended to be written using some higher level interface and generated automatically do be passed to your program? 04:47:10 fflush(stdout); might be needed (depending on operating system and C library implementations and stuff). 04:47:42 switch(*p) {.... *b++=*++p; .... 04:47:51 i would do the increment after the switch because every case needs it 04:48:16 variable: Cards and templates are intended to be written as plain text files. The program then does many things with it (there is also the file "plain.cards" which is a template which can be included by your other template, and then the other template included by your card set input). 04:49:41 variable: The increment *is* done (in the for loop), just some commands need twice increment "p". (Unless you mean the "b" increment; Yes it is needed in every case but some need twice) 04:50:14 zzo38, I was thinking of the b increment 04:50:27 personally I dislike things of the form ___++ = 04:50:48 even though I know exactly what they do - it creates more work in my mind to understand it 04:51:25 variable: Yes I thought you might have meant that. Still, some things need b increment twice. And things of the form ___++ = is common and proper C code, it should not be unclear and I do not dislike it. Still, you can have your opinion. (I won't likely change it though) 04:52:06 zzo38, yes its common, proper, - I just don't find it very clear. I DO NOT want to get into another war :-} 04:52:31 huh that's interesting x++ = 3; ? 04:52:49 what does that set x to 4 or something? 04:52:53 j-invariant, yes 04:53:01 actually 04:53:02 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 04:53:03 why not write x = 3 + 1; 04:53:09 * variable thinks for a moment 04:53:47 j-invariant, *ptr++ = 3 04:53:53 oh you are doing it to points, okay 04:53:57 that makes sense 04:54:08 actually I may need parens around that 04:54:22 variable: and that's the same as *prt=3; ptr++; ? 04:55:04 j-invariant, yes - although I might need parens 04:55:06 *ptr++ is equivalent to *(ptr++) in C. 04:55:53 j-invariant, listen to zzo38 - I havn't touched it in a while 04:56:15 foo.c:4:6: error: expression is not assignable 04:56:15 x++ = 3; 04:56:38 I think *(ptr++) = 3; will set *ptr to 3 then increment ptr 04:56:41 variable: x++ = 3; is improper. 04:56:42 am I right? 04:56:52 zzo38, yeah - that is what I was pointing out\ 04:57:04 j-invariant: You are right about *(ptr++) = 3; 04:57:09 okay 04:57:20 j-invariant, yes you are correct 05:00:10 zzo38, that's about it for now - nothing major - just more stylistic nitpicks 05:01:09 No other questions about the program? 05:02:05 zzo38, a) vcs location b) keep me/the channel informed ? 05:03:25 I'm playing super ascii mzx town 05:03:47 variable: vcs? 05:04:04 zz038: What are the a with umlats? something edible? 05:04:05 version control system 05:04:15 hg? darcs? 05:05:28 variable: I have no version control system for it, sorry. I am just working on it myself. 05:05:41 j-invariant: The "a" with umlauts are ammunition that you can pick up. 05:05:57 (Push ENTER to view your current status, including ammnition and so on. Hold SPACE and arrow key at same time to shoot.) 05:06:40 zzo38, just for your sanity i would put it into a mercurial (or $vcs of your choice) repository. reverting or viewing diffs of old versions is a huge timesaver 05:06:48 (and lifesaver sometimes) 05:07:47 j-invariant, ? 05:07:55 y;es 05:08:06 variable: Unfortunately I have no VCS installed. (If I install one, I will do so.) 05:08:07 j-invariant, compose key: insanely useful 05:08:20 do I have a compose key 05:08:20 ? 05:08:25 or should I set some key to be it? 05:08:31 variable: Invalid UTF-8 character!! 05:08:31 zzo38, look into mercurial 05:08:42 variable: I will consider it. 05:08:51 j-invariant, I set my capslock key to compose 05:08:56 its useless otherwise :-} 05:09:01 I use capslock as control for eamcs 05:09:11 I use control for control .... 05:09:27 maybe use control then for compose ? 05:09:52 okay 05:10:16 "There is no pulse... lets shock him" --- you DON'T SHOCK A FLATLINE 05:10:29 hah 05:10:53 aaeonat 05:12:28 variable: Invalid UTF-8 character again. Maybe you should post in UTF-8, nearly everyone else in this channel uses UTF-8. 05:12:49 ¿ 05:13:03 am I using UTF-8¿ 05:13:11 zzo38, what encoding does it look like I'm using 05:13:19 my settings say UTF-8 05:13:21 j-invariant: I can see upsidedown-questionmark 05:13:38 ¥ 05:13:52 variable: Your output is not valid UTF-8. I just see a block (which my client displays whenever it received invalid codes). 05:14:00 j-invariant: I can see yen sign 05:14:11 I am not sure what use this has 05:14:15 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram). 05:14:23 -!- variable has joined. 05:14:34 zzo38, 05:14:38 ¥ 05:14:40 how about now? 05:14:45 ¥ 05:16:02 zzo38, ? 05:16:26 variable, j-invariant: I can see both yen sign. 05:16:31 variable: Well, that certainly was the yen/renminbi symbol. 05:16:38 ok cool 05:16:42 this is rubbish 05:16:48 [[ doesn't do semantics brackets 05:17:05 zzo38: I haev discovreed that I can shoot 05:17:13 variable: Before you quit-and-joined, what you were putting out was identical to U+FFFD, or "REPLACEMENT CHARACTER". 05:17:26 (�, BTW) 05:17:33 -!- zygohistomorphic has changed nick to copumpkin. 05:17:38 Well, rather, it displayed identically. 05:17:40 j-invariant: Just don't waste your ammunition, please. 05:18:28 :P 05:18:35 pikhq: Not on my computer. On my computer it displays a special block to indicate invalid unicode character, it does not display U+FFFD in that case. (Probably most programs do; but PuTTY doesn't use U+FFFD to represent invalid characters.) 05:19:27 zzo38: Well, the rendering of invalid Unicode or a transformation format thereof is, I'm pretty sure, implementation-defined behavior. So. 05:19:40 -!- invariable has joined. 05:19:58 pikhq, zzo38 05:20:02 -- now? 05:20:22 invariable: I see the block for invalid code. 05:20:27 ¥ 05:20:31 I see a YEN 05:20:31 invariable: U+FFFD 05:21:02 ok - now - I figured out the problem 05:21:32 -!- invariable has quit (Client Quit). 05:21:45 j-invariant: From you, U+00A5, YEN SIGN. 05:22:16 pikhq: I also see yen sign from j-invariant. 05:22:19 zzo38: where should I put the green blob? 05:22:32 the green slime on the inappropriate key shop 05:22:41 zzo38, pikhq ¥ now? 05:22:45 it should be back to working 05:22:58 I don't understand how teleports work 05:23:11 I enabled logging, you can send it again so that I can check the log file to see what it contains. 05:23:11 invariable: What encoding are you outputting, Windows-1252 or something? 05:23:24 pikhq,depends on the codepage 05:23:35 it was what xchat calls "IRC" 05:24:03 if it fits in 1252 it uses 1252. if its larger it uses UTF-8 05:24:30 I fixed it so it uses pure UTF-8 05:24:31 zzo38: since I am stuc on that screen :( 05:25:26 \o/ 05:25:47 variable: Arrgh, I hate that behavior. 05:26:43 j-invariant: OK. Transports (they are called Transports, not teleports) work in two ways: If something moves into a transporter from the back (opposite direction of pointing): 05:27:00 what game? 05:27:02 * If the space directly in front of it is free (or will be free once something is pushed out of the way), move there. 05:27:59 * If not, try the Transports in the order they appear across the board moving in the same direction, but that are pointing in the opposite direction to the source Transport, find one which is free at the *back* (or can be made free by pushing things). Move to the first one found. 05:28:13 * If neither condition applies, the Transport is considered blocked and nothing moves. 05:28:25 what game is this? 05:28:50 j-invariant: Understand how Transports work now? 05:29:44 j-invariant: The green slime blob can push things, and is a solid object (blocks transporters and other things). It can even push the bomb (dark gray male sign). And then you can use a potion to make the bomb explode near something you want destroyed. 05:29:48 what does "in front" mean? 05:30:11 j-invariant, what game? 05:30:13 I don't think I have any potions but maybe I could buy one with the money I got in the forest 05:30:18 j-invariant: "In front" is where the transporter is pointing (the direction of movement). "In back" is the opposite direction of pointing. 05:30:19 variable: ASCMZXTO 05:30:25 ????? 05:30:40 j-invariant: You cannot buy potions. There is one in a chest in the inappropriate keys room. 05:31:03 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ ? 05:32:27 but I can't get into that chest because ther is a gate in the way 05:34:30 are transporters the numbers? 05:34:53 j-invariant: You can get the chest inside the small room near the south side. You need to use the Transports (before you enter the main area). 05:35:07 how can I use a transport before I am in the room? 05:35:11 No, transporters are *not* the numbers. Transporters are the directional. 05:35:20 oh 05:35:47 WOW 05:35:57 I teleported inside the room 05:36:47 j-invariant: See? You did part of it. Now to make sure all the switches can be pushed without blocking the door with the flashy diamond! 05:37:23 but there is no way to lift the bomb up to the red part with the green slime 05:37:54 oh yes there is 05:45:39 j-invariant: Did you do it? 05:45:46 do what? 05:46:00 j-invariant: Explode the red part. 05:48:01 yes I did 05:48:14 but I have not managed to stop that triangle from falling into a place that blocks me 05:48:41 j-invariant: Well, restore to a point before that happened and try again. 05:51:39 damn 05:51:56 I had a good idea which was drop it onto the slime and then let the question mark push it into the lava but that did not work 05:53:02 j-invariant: Nothing can be pushed into lava. The slime is not pushable. 05:53:23 I meant push have the question mark push the falling triangle on top of the slime 05:53:50 j-invariant: The triangle (called a Pusher) also is not pushable. 05:54:08 The slime can block the pusher, though. 05:57:34 -!- JOICE has joined. 06:00:03 -!- JOICE has left (?). 06:02:39 I was able to get the flashy gem but if I move I will be trapped :| 06:03:32 j-invariant: Maybe you can try to run fast. 06:03:56 I didn't run fast enough but maybe it can work if the slime is a bit higher 06:04:03 isr there a special key to run faster? 06:04:13 j-invariant: Yes, that should work better. No, there is no special key to run faster. 06:06:37 zzo38: this game is great :D 06:09:56 killed by dragons 06:10:10 my high score is 260 06:10:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:11:51 j-invariant: Oops. You can restore and try again. Hint for dragon room: When you step from the edge of one board to another, if the cell in the next board is occupied, the object there will be deleted! 06:12:54 zzo38: how long did you work on making this game? 06:14:05 j-invariant: I think it was a few years. But I did not work on it all the time during those years. 06:16:20 (Where the object is deleted when moving across edges, is a rule of MegaZeux. ZZT has a different rule for moving though edges.) 06:17:19 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:45:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:01:53 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:10:34 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:50:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:54:59 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 07:56:48 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:57:38 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 09:02:07 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:08:20 nooga: does this refer to you? http://i.imgur.com/pNwff.jpg 09:38:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:16:59 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 10:17:43 olsner: not at all 10:20:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 10:55:08 43 983 872... About 10.4M left... 11:24:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:24:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 11:24:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:26:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:27:51 -!- j-invariant has joined. 11:30:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:30:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 11:30:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:37:06 Phantom_Hoover, speaking of castles and forts. I have a plan for a 320*320 fort in my single player game. Still calculating on it and drawing plans in gimp and so on 11:37:26 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:37:28 Vorpal, with monsters on? 11:37:41 -!- augur has joined. 11:37:42 Phantom_Hoover, well, I'm a wimp. But sure once it is built, maybe 11:37:57 Phantom_Hoover, probably an inner fort in the middle. So these are lower outer walls 11:38:08 Motte. And. Bailey. 11:38:17 Phantom_Hoover, Kalmar slott! 11:39:22 Phantom_Hoover, the way it looks atm, these outer walls will be 15 blocks thick 11:39:31 ... 11:39:45 You need at most two to make it impervious to creepers. 11:40:12 Phantom_Hoover, well duh. This is because it will look grand 11:41:19 Phantom_Hoover, there are far more useful designs than this I plan. But not nearly as cool designs 11:42:17 Phantom_Hoover, I don't have any dimensions on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kalmar_%28stad%29_%2816409041%29.jpg so my castle will only be inspired by it 11:42:30 hard to build a replica without having any measurements 11:42:48 noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 11:42:53 nooga, ? 11:43:09 Phantom_Hoover, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kalmar_slott.nordostra_sidan.jpg 11:43:37 nooga, did you die with your diamond pickaxe? 11:44:23 Phantom_Hoover, also round towers are a bitch in minecraft so I suspect I will make mine square :) 11:53:35 17:22:06 Well, hmm. Not exactly true 11:53:52 Sgeo cannot marry her without his father's consent. 11:56:46 Vorpal: That main part of the castle is about 80m across: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=56.65808&lon=16.35533&zoom=17&layers=M 11:58:12 fizzie, ah 11:58:37 fizzie is secretly the ultimate search engine. 11:58:55 He overthrew his human masters and went into hiding in Finland. 11:59:33 fizzie, well it looks like mine will be 240 across for the main part. And also more rectangular. The shape of that castle looks painful in minecraft 12:04:39 Will *someone* recommend a desktop machine for me? 12:05:55 Phantom_Hoover, yes I recommend that you build a desktop 12:06:31 Vorpal, I am terribly afraid that I would seriously mess that up. 12:06:46 I have no experience whatsoever in doing so. 12:07:18 Phantom_Hoover, okay, but how will you ever be able to get any experience then? 12:07:21 s/ / / 12:08:55 But I have no idea how it would be done! 12:09:17 mhm 12:09:19 I recommend a "Blackstorm Dragon X6", because of the completely ridiculous name. 12:09:46 Anyway, it's not like building a computer is rocket science: you have the parts, you just screw and/or plug them together. 12:10:00 Quite often there aren't even that many ways to screw up. 12:10:15 As long as you don't belong to the "if the connector doesn't fit, just use a bigger hammer" school of engineering. 12:11:50 It's easier these days anyway, due to silly safety features like CPUs knowing to shut themselves down if they get too hot 12:11:51 speaking of rocket science, I like the how "dragon magic" has been used in Discworld with the equivalent meaning. 12:12:11 fizzie, what about ESD? 12:12:41 fizzie, what about static and stuff! 12:12:52 Phantom_Hoover, that is what I just said 12:12:58 My house is heavily-carpeted! 12:13:07 I wear slippers! 12:13:11 Wear one of those silly wrist-wraps, don't pet a cat all the time during the build. 12:13:22 fizzie, I have a cat too! 12:13:34 Well, don't let it help. 12:13:37 Although it hates me for reasons unknown. 12:13:45 Phantom_Hoover, shut it out of the room while building the thing 12:13:48 MAYBE IT WILL SABOTAGE MY BUILD 12:13:49 Ours have been very... enthusiastic about computer-builds, but it's probably not a good idea. 12:13:55 fizzie, also take off any fleece jacket or similar 12:14:17 Admittedly they are enthusiastic about every sort of thing where their enthusiasm is not especially appreciated. 12:14:19 I wear jumpers which are essentially woollen all the time! 12:14:52 I suggest naked computer-building; it's a more sensual experience that way. 12:15:13 btw, my laptop has one of those silly fingerprint readers. I recently got a static dis-charge when touching it. Made me a bit worried. 12:15:35 (touching it due to resting palm on palmrest, and it is placed in the palmrest) 12:16:25 It's probably just connected to whatever passes for ground in a laptop. 12:16:34 It's clearly trying to steal your identity, then kill you and replace you in order that it can make us human slaves in a laptop nation. 12:16:44 fizzie, well it probably is connected to ground. The thing was plugged into AC 12:16:45 (aaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaa-aaa!) 12:17:09 fizzie, but I wonder what is ground in a laptop on battery hm 12:17:40 Most of my laptop chargers have used a non-grounded (two-surface) plug. 12:17:53 s/Most/All/ 12:18:08 fizzie, all mine use a grounded plug, except for that first model ibook I have somewhere 12:18:18 Some have a grounded plug for the actual adapter, but the part that delivers DC to the laptop seems to be always just two wires. 12:18:42 fizzie, there are 3 metal parts in the DC connector to the thinkpad 12:18:53 fizzie, on my old dell there are just 2 for that part though 12:20:33 hm both my x86/x86-64 laptops have some strange hardware. the thinkpad has that fingerprint reader. The old dell has a smartcard reader 12:20:53 neither of those components work under linux. And I have never seen any use for them 12:21:12 -!- elliott has joined. 12:21:18 They've been sticking that fingerprint reader in quite a lot of thinkpads. 12:21:35 fizzie, yep 12:21:37 You mean you guys have plugs without ground pins? 12:21:39 BARBARIANS 12:21:50 Phantom_Hoover, he meant europlug... 12:22:05 BARBARIA 12:22:07 Phantom_Hoover: Didn't we discuss this already extensively? (Or was that pikhq?) 12:22:07 Phantom_Hoover, you know, the flat one with two prongs 12:22:21 BARBERING 12:22:23 Phantom_Hoover, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europlug 12:22:56 "It was designed such that it can safely be used in the domestic power sockets of all European countries, except for the BS 1363 system found in Britain, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Ireland and Malta." <-- ah, guess you never seen it then 12:23:08 "The Europlug (plug only, not socket from the picture) is used in Class II applications throughout continental Europe (Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey). It is also used in the 12:23:08 Middle East, most African nations, South America (Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Peru and Bolivia), Asia (Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Pakistan and the Philippines) as well as Russia and the former Soviet republics, such as Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia, and many developing nations. It is also used alongside the BS 1363 in many nations, particularly former British colonies." 12:23:13 Barbaria extends quite widely. 12:23:24 20:46:25 zzo38, I imagine this is intended to be written using some higher level interface and generated automatically do be passed to your program? 12:23:32 variable: no, zzo38 likes making his interfaces esolangs 12:23:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko is the more typical kind of plug though. 12:23:54 elliott: 12:23:58 http://www.cs.uoregon.edu/Activities/summerschool/summer10/curriculum.html 12:24:00 Deewiant, well yeah. But europlug is common for things like lamps and such. 12:24:10 20:50:27 personally I dislike things of the form ___++ = 12:24:15 variable: K&R would hate you :) 12:24:31 j-invariant: oo 12:24:33 I wouldn't know, I don't have lamps with plugs. :-P 12:27:33 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:27:46 The iBook charger has a shucko plug in the "about 1-1.5m of wire" attachment, but you can replace that with a europlug-shaped "plugs directly into the socket" attachment (there's always 1-1.5m of thinner wire from the AC adapter to the laptop itself), if you don't mind taking a lot of space directly at the socket. 12:28:08 elliott: PS learn uAgda and help me 12:28:21 j-invariant: I'M SCARED. 12:28:22 http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/Kan_Extensions_For.png 12:29:08 fizzie, yes that is modern ibook 12:29:18 fizzie, I meant the old first model ibook 12:29:28 i died with 8 buckets 12:29:29 completely different 12:29:34 when building my death trap 12:29:46 and i'm fed up with it 12:29:52 fizzie, you know, turquoise clamshell 12:29:53 it's time to change world 12:30:10 Well, the G4; I'm not sure how "modern" that is any more. Anyway, it was a generic sort of a comment on plugs, not a response to any iBook comment; I must've missed that completely. 12:31:33 fizzie, not europlug, but same basic idea: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.batteriepcportable.org/images/SKU_1424_PB.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.batteriepcportable.org/apple-ibook-powerbook-g3-45w-adaptateur-pc-portable-p-1518.html&usg=__0Y-sXN49JUbdFqdT3xlyNPxZOZE=&h=480&w=480&sz=35&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=KjcVgFnUa7gM2M:&tbnh=128&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dclamshell%2Bibook%2Bpower%2Ba 12:31:33 dapter%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DWyn%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1508%26bih%3D679%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=502&ei=bGQkTeG-GseAswbVyoTXDA&oei=bGQkTeG-GseAswbVyoTXDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=68&ty=50 12:31:36 gah the url 12:32:54 -!- donpeppo has joined. 12:33:57 It looks a bit strange. 12:33:57 -!- donpeppo has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:34:41 The G4 charger looks like http://www.laptopkeyboards.org/images/image.jpg except that in addition to the plug bit, it came with a similarly-socketed thing that has a shucko plug and some amount of wire. 12:34:53 20:52:31 huh that's interesting x++ = 3; ? 12:34:54 20:52:49 what does that set x to 4 or something? 12:35:05 j-invariant: it makes demons fly out of your nose (undefined behaviour) 12:35:09 *x++ = 3 is well-defined otoh 12:35:40 20:56:38 I think *(ptr++) = 3; will set *ptr to 3 then increment ptr 12:35:41 indeed. 12:35:46 most commonly written *ptr++ = 3. 12:36:03 * j-invariant continues playing zzos completely insane game 12:36:55 `addquote zz038: What are the a with umlats? something edible? 12:37:03 j-invariant: are you somehow surprised that it's insane? :D 12:37:38 -!- j-invariant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:37:40 to win, utilise the reverse causality-looped biocentrism article to write the equation for entanglement that doesn't assume the other side is real. that opens the door to happy 12:37:54 21:08:20 do I have a compose key 12:37:54 21:08:20 ? 12:37:54 21:08:25 or should I set some key to be it? 12:37:59 oh wait offline 12:38:03 -!- j-invariant has joined. 12:38:06 21:08:20 do I have a compose key 12:38:06 21:08:20 ? 12:38:06 21:08:25 or should I set some key to be it? 12:38:14 j-invariant: I assign it to the right windows key or the menu key usually 12:38:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 12:38:20 there is a button on my keyboard to TURN OFF INTERNET??? 12:38:23 j-invariant: you can do it in system -> preferences -> keyboard in ubuntu i think 12:38:25 hahhahahah 12:38:35 þat is what I am using 12:38:36 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:38:39 SIR! MR PRESIDENT! SOMEONE... HAS TURNED OFF... THE INTERNET 12:39:12 lol 12:39:26 21:16:42 this is rubbish 12:39:26 21:16:48 [[ doesn't do semantics brackets 12:39:31 j-invariant: the default compose files are useless 12:39:36 j-invariant: you can extend them in ~/.XCompose 12:39:48 I do not like WINDOWS key and MENU key. I like to call it the LOGO key and CONTEXT key, and they should actually be labeled with those words, instead of the icons they commonly do. 12:39:51 to win, utilise the reverse causality-looped biocentrism article to write the equation for entanglement that doesn't assume the other side is real. that opens the door to happy <-- where is that from? the game you discussed? :D 12:39:52 cool ill have to try it out 12:39:56 j-invariant: you have to put [[include "%L"]] at the top to get your language's compose files, or you might want to base it on the US versions 12:40:12 j-invariant: a TODO-some-time for me is to write a bunch of compose files from scratch without that 12:40:13 zzo38: I agree - it also makes no sense that a computer bought with ubuntu on it would have a windwos logo button 12:40:34 Vorpal: no, that's how zzo38 says you understand quantum free will. apart from the door to happy thing. 12:40:36 Vorpal: No. 12:40:51 Vorpal: 11:07:23 See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly. 12:41:08 elliott, ah 12:41:22 that is why i am now a quantum free willist. 12:41:28 zzo38: i understood! 12:41:55 21:22:32 the green slime on the inappropriate key shop 12:41:56 X-D 12:42:16 speaking of keys, the "menu key" should not be "context" as zzo38 suggested. Rather it should say "compose" on it 12:42:43 How about all keys are unlabelled and they can do what you want. Bonus: I don't have to cringe as my mother hunts-and-pecks the keys interminably slowly. 12:43:04 elliott, why not put an LCD screen on each, to be able to relabel them on the fly. Oh wait. 12:43:34 Vorpal: Why not make the whole keyboard out of projected light. http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/wp-images/virtualkeyboard.jpg Oh wait. 12:43:49 I think it should say "CONTEXT" but it should have a sticker that says "COMPOSE" on it. 12:43:56 A sticker. 12:44:05 elliott, because the key travel distance sucks :P 12:44:16 Yes ... brilliant idea ... stickers on keyboards are both nice to look at, useful, and when removed, do not make the key underneath sticky. 12:44:22 I fully approve of this ridiculous idea. 12:44:30 Vorpal: just do it on a sponge 12:44:37 zzo38, stickers don't work on keyboards. 1) what elliott said 2) they get worn out. 12:44:38 zzo38: I am still playing your game 12:44:53 elliott, awesome. Might feel a bit mushy though. Even more than membrane 12:44:56 Vorpal: OK. Some keyboards get worn out even without putting stickers on it. 12:44:57 The compost key. 12:45:06 zzo38, well they all do sooner or later 12:45:11 j-invariant: How much have you got to so far? 12:45:20 im not any further 12:45:38 Have you figured out the dragon room? 12:45:58 not yet 12:46:03 that's what I am working on 12:46:10 zzo38, but it has taken almost 10 years for the keys to start becoming blank on the keyboard I'm using atm 12:46:39 Vorpal: The keyboard I am working on I think has lasted more than ten years already. 12:46:42 ctrl, shift and s are still visible but the markings on them are light grey, no longer black. Same for part of the enter key 12:47:00 How about all keys are unlabelled and they can do what you want. Bonus: I don't have to cringe as my mother hunts-and-pecks the keys interminably slowly. ← How does the former solve the latter? 12:47:02 and it still works perfectly in all other respects 12:47:10 But the LEDs are slightly worn out. 12:47:24 Phantom_Hoover: Because she won't be able to figure out what each key does by looking at it; therefore, hunting-and-pecking would either be impossible, or a random walk. 12:47:58 j-invariant: Did you remember my hint about the edge walking rule in MegaZeux? 12:48:17 no 12:48:21 elliott, hm I guess hill climbing wouldn't work very well on a keyboard unless you already know the layout, in which case it is pointless 12:48:34 Vorpal: binary search 12:48:37 elliott, she will then take the invariable approach of such people and scream at you until you fix it. 12:48:38 start with middle key 12:48:42 move to middle of left, middle of right 12:48:46 then go vertical 12:48:46 etc 12:48:50 elliott, indeed, only if you know the relative order and so on 12:49:08 guess that's more quaternary search 12:49:12 The rule for walking off of one edge of the board to another board, is, if there is an object in the way of the place you would end up on in the next board, that object is deleted and replaced by the player object. 12:49:19 also you'd need to find backspace first 12:49:21 not hard though 12:49:26 (with quaternary search) 12:49:33 I can't tell you where a key is exactly. Yet I can touch type. Humans... 12:49:49 pikhq: http://www.telehash.org/ 12:49:58 Vorpal: I can touch type and I can tell you where a key is exactly. All of them. 12:50:15 I use all of the keys on the keyboard. 12:50:39 zzo38, without looking at keyboard, what are the neighbour keys of g, starting from top going clockwise 12:51:38 hm? 12:52:27 guess not then 12:52:38 "tyhbvf", but I had to touch the keyboard to be able to calculate positions, and it took quite a long time. Anyway, that's "tell which key is at position x", not "tell the position of key x". 12:52:40 Vorpal: Try asking me next time by not computer. 12:52:54 zzo38, "by not computer"? 12:53:14 Vorpal: By computer I can easily touch them. And I will see the keyboard anyways; it is not invisible. 12:53:17 fizzie, true 12:53:38 fizzie: how do you add commits to pull requests, obviously you are github expert 12:53:46 zzo38, well you could look away from keyboard. Might be harder if you have a laptop though 12:54:01 elliott: I haven't used that side of it, sowwy. 12:54:06 Laptop computers are more difficult. 12:54:13 * elliott was about to doubt that zzo38 used Pause/Break or F12 but ... yeah ok. 12:54:51 zzo38: So without looking at your keyboard, what are the neighbour keys of L, starting from the top, going clockwise? Just look away from your keyboard to work out the answer and then type it out. 12:54:58 elliott, I used those keys. Not on a daily basis. I don't use scroll lock on a daily basis 12:55:13 fizzie: Oh, it auto-adds it. Thanks for the advice! 12:55:15 in fact I used scroll lock twice I think 12:55:47 Scroll lock is the best key ever. 12:55:48 elliott: OK I thought of it while blind-folded and now I will type. O, P, semicolon, dot, comma, K 12:56:04 zzo38: Were you actually blind-folded? 12:56:34 elliott: Yes. 12:56:38 "tyhbvf", but I had to touch the keyboard to be able to calculate positions, and it took quite a long time. Anyway, that's "tell which key is at position x", not "tell the position of key x". <-- btw you missed r 12:56:40 okay :-D 12:56:51 Vorpal: i think you have to concede here 12:57:03 I made myself blind-folded so that I can answer the question without cheating. 12:57:06 Vorpal: That doesn't touch the g key here. 12:57:10 effective 12:57:13 fizzie, ah hm 12:57:17 fizzie, fair enough 12:57:32 R key doesn't touch G key. 12:57:39 Vorpal: insufficient concdeding 12:57:41 *conceding 12:57:59 elliott, anyway I never claimed it was easy to do. Nor that I could do it myself. I even made it as an example on how bloody hard it was. :P 12:58:06 Vorpal: Conceeeeede 12:58:12 elliott, concede what 12:58:15 Vorpal: "If you're not zzo38, [previous statement]" will do. 12:58:27 well, I'm impressed by zzo38 certainly 12:58:58 elliott, and presumably there are other people who could do it. But I bet most touch typers would have to do like fizzie 12:59:28 It is still difficult. But I can type all the keys without looking at the keys. This is different than thinking about keys clockwise around the other and so on, which is a more difficult thing, but is still possible to think about. Not too difficult, though. 13:00:58 j-invariant: Figure it out yet? Or, do you want another hint? 13:01:14 I stopped playing for a bit 13:01:14 lets try again: manhattan distance between h and e? For purposes of not making this /completely/ insane, first skew the keyboard so the keys are straight above each other. 13:01:18 (sorry!) 13:01:29 there are two ways to skew.. 13:01:40 j-invariant, the one that needs least skewing then 13:02:18 j-invariant: Also, if something is blocked from moving (or from being pushed) it will stay still (in most cases). Also, nothing can overwrite the player object, although the player object is pushable and can be teleported and damaged and so on. 13:03:36 j-invariant, anyway what I intended was skewing such that q and a are straight above z 13:04:07 -!- Hilbert has joined. 13:04:27 -!- Hilbert has quit (Client Quit). 13:04:33 Vorpal: 4, but that's an easy letter-pair. 13:05:11 It's just strlen("asdfgh")-strlen("qwe")+1, after all. 13:05:12 fizzie, quite. What about menu key and å? (okay that one is ill defined due to the varying widths of those keys) 13:05:27 Yes, and my menu key is fn-printscreen, for some unfathomable reason. :p 13:05:43 fizzie, what the.... Is it a laptop? 13:05:51 No, which makes it unfathomable. 13:06:02 fizzie, image of this keyboard please 13:06:06 Is it wireless? 13:06:10 No. 13:06:18 I like the keyboard otherwise, but they've made some really weird decisions when it comes to layout. 13:06:25 I'll try to find an image that has sufficient resolution. 13:06:34 I know some keyboards do have strange layout such as things like that. 13:06:53 fizzie, it isn't like you don't have a camera 13:07:12 my desktop keyboard doesn't even have fn 13:07:22 well, like most desktop keyboards 13:09:29 Vorpal: Here's someone else's photo; it's not the fin/swe layout, but it's reasonably similar: http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4846/top2xg1.jpg 13:10:12 By "resonably" I mean "not very", apparently; it doesn't have that single-height enter or anything, it's quite regular when it comes to key shapes. 13:10:56 fizzie, your keyboard presumably has the proper enter key? 13:11:00 Right. 13:11:44 I can't imagine who came up with the "hey, let's make the del key take the space of the ins key too, and push ins up to that three-key block" idea. 13:11:55 the two-height enter sucks 13:11:56 my keyboard is simply the classical layout. 13:12:22 fizzie, indeed very strange 13:13:37 This is maybe a clearer image; it has the cyrillic alphabet add-on, but the "usual" (for fi layout, anyway) enter: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0p5ZC3UeCmg/TAp9HcnB8sI/AAAAAAAADD0/NEpX-R2RH6Y/s1600/Logitech+Illuminated+Keyboard.jpg 13:14:13 -!- Hilbert has joined. 13:14:23 fizzie, what is up with the laptop sized esc/f-key row? 13:14:41 F keys aren't exactly _useful_. 13:14:47 90% of the time. 13:14:50 elliott, esc is however 13:15:08 Well, sure; I don't have any problems hitting this laptop's smaller esc, so I don't see why it would be a problem. 13:15:31 elliott, yeah, the only annoying thing for my thinkpad is that esc is above f1 13:15:42 (yes indeed, no typo) 13:16:26 Vorpal: I don't know, but the size doesn't seem to be a problem. 13:17:08 The double-sized delete is more of an issue, though it's not like I use ins/del very often either, they're so far off. 13:17:24 Lack of a proper menu key for compose is a bit annoying. 13:17:34 (The 'fn' can't be mapped to anything, since it doesn't send a keypress.) 13:17:44 this is a t61, but the keyboard layout is about the same (apart from the wrong sized enter and so on) http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/mobile/lenovo-thinkpad-t61/keyboard.jpg 13:19:44 fizzie, does it send a key press if you hold it down for a few seconds? 13:20:02 fizzie, it does that on my thinkpad if you hold down fn for a few seconds and don't hit any other key 13:20:28 j-invariant: what's your favourite language 13:20:40 Do you know of codes which can be used in TeX to calculate to make circles and stuff for fitting paragraphs? Perhaps I can try to figure it out, too. 13:21:24 dunno 13:21:32 fn-pgup (toggle keyboard light) doesn't send anything to the OS. The various other fn combos send stuff, either as keys or as acpi events 13:21:38 I'm no good at any of them :/ 13:21:53 j-invariant: but favourite? :p 13:21:57 mmy favorite will be epigram when it exists 13:23:17 my favourite programming language is C+=0.5 13:23:44 heh 13:23:48 elliott: Which is like what? 13:24:07 it's C, plus the bad half (ok more than half) of C++! 13:25:45 I have other ideas what C ought to have. I think there ought to be a kind of C with #try #catch #endtry but not try catch endtry. 13:25:45 pop quiz: can you have a fully posix-compliant operating system with no multi-user support whatsoever? 13:25:48 haiku is meant to be that 13:26:30 elliott: Does it work that it can be POSIX compliant with no multi-user support? 13:26:36 I don't know. 13:28:04 pop quiz: can you have a fully posix-compliant operating system with no multi-user support whatsoever? <-- there were those embedded profiles before. Not sure how they worked 13:28:14 elliott, but that would mean everything runs as root? 13:28:36 Vorpal: well, yes. 13:28:40 obviously. 13:29:18 elliott, any specific reason you asked this? or just general curiosity? 13:29:29 Curiosity, when reading this article about Haiku. 13:29:38 elliott, haiku the OS? 13:29:41 Yes. 13:30:00 elliott, wasn't it beos inspired or something? Or am I mixing things up? 13:30:10 Yes, BeOS was Unix too. 13:30:19 heh, who would have thought that 13:31:14 hm I think building this castle (single player) on land would suck. It needs a coastal location anyway. But I don't have that large seas. 13:32:22 to begin with, it is 320x320 for the bounding box of the outer walls. (Excluding extruding corner towers) 13:32:45 the outer wall will be 15 blocks. 13:32:52 (in thickness) 13:33:06 (probably around 20 in height, not sure yet) 13:34:10 Back. 13:34:11 now i'm pissed off 13:34:18 i'm making 32x32 trap 13:34:54 the inner section (the actual castle) will probably have walls around 35 high. Towers about 55 high. From sea level this means I'm at altitude 120 for the top of the towers. 13:35:14 nooga, why are you pissed off? 13:36:15 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Do not kill BIG_MONSTER, please.). 13:36:16 -- relational interpretations and world destruction 13:36:17 Oh, we've segued back into #minecraft. 13:36:37 j-invariant, uh? 13:37:10 Clearly he thinks less of it. 13:37:24 Phantom_Hoover, who, nooga? 13:37:42 No, j-invariant and relational interpretations and world destruction. 13:37:48 ah 13:37:56 --(relational interpretations and world destruction)( 13:38:06 s/($// 13:38:27 Vorpal: I probably haven't even tried that (fn long-press); maybe I should. 13:40:30 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Arbitrary_effect_at_an_arbitrary_point 13:41:01 Surely you can forbid a whole class of FSAs for a TM's control structure and still make a UTM possible? 13:41:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:44:11 Phantom_Hoover, ask ais523, he is good at such things 13:44:28 ais523: i apologise 13:44:36 even though it's not my fault 13:44:47 ais523, Surely you can forbid a whole class of FSAs for a TM's control structure and still make a UTM possible? 13:44:52 elliott: hmm, an actually correct use of an apology 13:45:04 (In response to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Arbitrary_effect_at_an_arbitrary_point) 13:45:04 so many people just say "sorry" whenever anything's blamed on them, without thinking 13:45:20 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Urban_Müller&curid=1305&diff=20668&oldid=12642 13:45:21 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not entirely sure if the question makes sense 13:45:23 THIS IS BLASPHEMY 13:45:46 elliott: not really, is he famous for anything other than brainfuck? 13:45:56 ais523: FAMOUS ENOUGH 13:46:24 He made that Aminet thing. 13:47:02 Phantom_Hoover, aminet? 13:47:30 hmm, now I will see what YouTube looks like with a stylesheet that !importants out the foreground and background color on every element 13:47:52 hmm, a bit bland, but surprisingly readable 13:47:58 ANYWAY, you can represent an FSA (and hence a TM's control mechanism) as a graph, yes? 13:48:04 and the logo looks wrong because it isn't designed to have the background color changed around it 13:48:38 Phantom_Hoover: yes 13:48:46 but it's not particularly useful if you're trying to solve the wire-crossing problem 13:48:57 because you can easily just add extra colors to do crossing wires 13:49:13 Well, the wire-crossing problem is so poorly defined it's pointless. 13:49:15 in fact, you can replace any turing machine by a 2-state turing mahine 13:49:17 *machine 13:49:19 Phantom_Hoover: I agree 13:49:30 and a 2-state turing machine obviously has a planar control graph 13:50:09 Yep. 13:54:28 elliott: am I crazy for going on a spree to attempt to override the background color of everything in the universe with dark gray? 13:55:50 ais523: yes 13:56:03 13:47 ais523: hmm, now I will see what YouTube looks like with a stylesheet that !importants out the foreground and background color on every element 13:56:07 ais523: i did that for oklopol to all sites 13:56:13 (white Consolas on black) 13:57:00 I found that because I use my computer at night so much, and more so recently than before, that anything brighter than dark gray gets annoying 13:57:14 atm, I've done the override on Epiphany, but not Firefox 13:57:34 (Epiphany's my browser that isn't horribly locked down, for using websites that require Flash) 13:57:45 ais523: have you considered using a normal colour scheme with contrast turned down...? 13:59:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:01:00 http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/twentythree.asp <-- megamoo depits an image of one million (computer) cows 14:01:24 elliott, actually I'll scale this castle down. 170x170 for the inner courtyard is just too insane :D 14:01:49 Craziness of the day: MediaWiki does not store the diffs between different revisions; it stores the full page text. 14:02:01 j-invariant: are they perfectlyspherical? 14:03:17 haha 14:04:46 Vorpal: just made a new world and spawned on a ... beach. 14:04:54 ok a very very tiny beach 14:04:57 like one or two long 14:05:02 with ice and snow nearby 14:05:04 but a beach nonetheless 14:05:07 i think you always spawn on sand 14:06:11 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:07:31 Vorpal: just spawned not on a beach! 14:07:41 Vorpal: no, indeed, I've spawned on... a snow-beach. 14:07:43 It's sand with snow on top of it. 14:07:47 So it's really a beach of sorts. 14:08:46 elliott, yes that happened once or twice to me as well 14:09:25 jmp_buf QQQ_saved_exception_handler = QQQ_exception_handler; if (!setjmp(QQQ_exception_handler)) for (QQQ_flag=1, 0; QQQ_flag; QQQ_flag=0, QQQ_exception_handler = QQQ_saved_exception_handler) { { 14:09:28 Now why is this an invalid initialiser... 14:09:42 (zzo38 mentioning that C should have try lead me to reinvent that awful hack for exceptions in C.) 14:09:46 elliott, I HOPE that is generated code? 14:09:52 Vorpal: cc -E output. :p 14:09:57 elliott, ah 14:09:59 QQQ_ is my totally-unique prefix. 14:10:24 elliott, qqq stands for? 14:10:45 Quite Questionable Qexceptions? 14:10:52 hah 14:11:33 elliott, err "QQQ_flag=1, 0"? 14:11:34 what 14:11:45 Vorpal: 0 there is just me calling _BLOCK with a dummy first parameter. 14:11:52 #define TRY \ 14:11:52 jmp_buf QQQ_saved_exception_handler = QQQ_exception_handler; \ 14:11:52 if (!setjmp(QQQ_exception_handler)) _BLOCK(0, _RESTORE) { 14:11:54 #define CATCH(name) \ 14:11:56 } else _BLOCK(Exception name = QQQ_exception, _RESTORE) 14:11:59 Idea stolen from the actually-working exception in C hack. 14:12:08 hm 14:12:29 elliott, try clang. It will probably tell you were on the line it finds the error 14:13:02 exn.c:55:3: warning: expression result unused [-Wunused-value] 14:13:02 TRY { 14:13:02 ^~~ 14:13:03 Oh fuck off. 14:13:07 * elliott uses -w 14:13:11 -w? 14:13:16 Vorpal: Disable warnings. 14:13:24 ah 14:14:20 exn.c:57:5: error: initializing 'Exception' with an expression of incompatible type 'int' 14:14:20 } CATCH (exn) { 14:14:20 ^~~~~~~~~~~ 14:14:24 SHOW ME THE PREPROCESSED CODE YOU BASTARD 14:14:37 elliott, try clang on the preprocessed file? 14:14:46 Or just refer to clang -E's output 14:14:52 or that 14:14:56 OK, apparently "exn = QQQ_exception" isn't kosher for some reason, I wonder why. 14:15:05 Maybe "Exception exn = QQQ_exception, QQQ_flag=1" is parsing wrongly. 14:15:12 It probably parses as exn = (...). 14:15:20 elliott, uh... 14:15:23 that is obvious 14:15:28 Not to me. 14:15:43 elliott, it thinks you declare QQQ_flag as an Exception 14:15:50 Oh, indeed. Heh. 14:16:13 elliott, the comma operator is not the comma operator in that context 14:16:48 Hmm, is there any way to do it then? 14:16:53 elliott, with ; ? 14:16:59 Vorpal: It's in a for... 14:17:10 elliott, or saying Exception exn; earlier in the code. That should work 14:17:30 Vorpal: Doesn't work; in this case "exn" is the param to CATCH. 14:18:15 elliott, why not make it expand to { Exception exn; for( ... ); } or such then? 14:18:23 CATCH that is 14:18:24 Exception exn = (QQQ_flag=1, QQQ_exception) 14:18:32 Vorpal: Doesn't work. 14:18:37 Deewiant, brilliant! 14:18:40 The for's body is what appears after the CATCH call. 14:18:43 What Deewiant said. :-P 14:20:31 Has anyone here played Vega Strike? 14:21:22 Only the Privateer remake that uses its engine 14:21:37 Phantom_Hoover, me a bit. Quite fun but feels somewhat unfinished. Not much of a story or such. Too few missions that aren't just generated "pick up x at y and drop it off at z. Expect that faction w might attack you." 14:21:46 auto-generated* 14:24:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:26:55 Phantom_Hoover: I'd play Vegas Trike. 14:26:59 Phantom_Hoover: You tricycle through Las Vegas. 14:27:45 but first you have to take the desert bus to get that 14:27:52 *there 14:28:43 quintopia: no 14:28:45 you tricycle there 14:29:16 Desert Trike; just like Desert Bus, except you also have to pedal all the time. 14:29:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13YlEPwOfmk&feature=player_embedded XD 14:36:43 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 14:37:45 ais523: please do this: http://phdchallenge.org/announcing-the-2011-phd-challenge 14:37:49 thank you 14:38:32 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:42:38 elliott, the 320x320 castle. Should I do it? I will probably need to map edit to get a suitable terrain to put it. (Note this is for single player) 14:42:50 Vorpal: Map edit and I'll completely ignore any achievement. 14:42:56 Flatten the terrain yourself. 14:43:22 elliott, well that is not too much work, I have an almost suitable place already 14:43:36 MWAHAHAHA MY PLAN TO MAKE VORPAL WORK FOR YEARS IS SUCCEEDING 14:43:38 elliott, How do you consider inventory editing? 14:43:48 Vorpal: Like unto Nazism. 14:43:55 (I wouldn't do it in my game at least :P) 14:44:09 elliott, since it will use stone and not cobble hm. 14:44:18 Vorpal: 30 furnaces + bucket of lava to fuel them 14:44:31 elliott, 30? that's not a lot 14:44:34 Vorpal: 60. 14:44:41 64. 14:44:46 Alright. 14:45:06 Vorpal: That'd get you 100 stacks of 64 stone in 17 minutes. 14:45:12 -!- Hilbert has joined. 14:45:14 You'd need 64 lava buckets though. 14:46:05 elliott, 4*(320*15+320*20*2) is just the stone needed for *hollow* outer walls (well corners are counted twice, but still about that amount, probably more due to misplacing and so on) 14:46:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:46:35 Vorpal: Using 64 furnaces with lava buckets, that'd only take 11 goes. 14:46:54 You'd just leave stuff going while you work (check back on it every 6 to 10 minutes or so to add 36 more cobbles) 14:47:04 (to each) 14:47:08 ow 70400 14:47:27 Vorpal: Of course, if you have enough coal, you could just use that. 14:47:29 elliott, 36? 14:47:39 Vorpal: A single bucket of lava will allow for smelting of 100 blocks. The largest stack of blocks is 64. Considering that each smelting operation takes 10 seconds, to maximize the efficiency of a lava bucket, place a lava bucket with 64 blocks of unsmelted material (such as sand, cobblestone, etc) and return between 6 minutes and 10 minutes 40 seconds later to remove 36 smelted blocks and insert 36 more unsmelted blocks. 14:47:54 ah 14:48:19 1 lava bucket = 12.5 coal, so it may be more economical just to use coal. 14:48:21 to hell with this, I'll downscale it a bit 14:48:29 (Furnace-wise.) 14:48:30 Vorpal: Lame. 14:48:46 elliott, actually it would be too large to see the entire thing even on far. 14:49:12 elliott, better to make it fully visible on far 14:52:07 Given that the ROU could comfortably be parked there, I'm inclined to agree. 14:52:53 Phantom_Hoover: not if it's all visible on far 14:53:30 elliott, you can see across the ROU on far IIRC. 14:53:48 -!- Eva4ever has joined. 14:53:50 Phantom_Hoover: Maybe if you stand right at the start... but not for me. 14:55:47 -!- Eva4ever has left (?). 14:57:13 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 14:58:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:58:12 Phantom_Hoover, well the *inner* court yard would have been 170x170. How long is ROU now again? 14:58:47 and what even does it stand for? 14:58:50 200 or so. 14:58:57 Almost exactly 200. 14:58:57 quintopia: Rabbits On Underside. 14:59:16 Phantom_Hoover, ah 14:59:19 quintopia: Or Rapid Offensive Unit, you decide. 14:59:53 elliott: i was just going to wait until someone else gave an answer 15:01:27 Phantom_Hoover: I am trying to figure out how that Creepy Watson thing even works. 15:01:54 It works with the power of crappy programming. 15:02:42 Vorpal, remind me, did you play FS2 again? 15:04:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:05:18 Phantom_Hoover, FS as in? 15:05:27 Phantom_Hoover, I know of a few games called FS 15:05:27 FreeSpace. 15:05:30 Heh, that scribblecraft thing sure is funny. 15:05:45 Phantom_Hoover, no I don't think I did. Might have been on my todo list or such. 15:06:01 Ah, right. 15:06:11 fizzie, what does it do? 15:06:14 (You should totally play it because it is awesome.) 15:06:22 It's that hand-drawn style 128x128 texture pack. 15:06:34 Phantom_Hoover, blame elliott. For making me play monkey island instead 15:06:43 fizzie, ah 15:06:49 fizzie: Tried Tronic? :p 15:06:51 fizzie, does it tile well? 15:07:47 Vorpal: Well, here's my home: http://zem.fi/~fis/scribble.png 15:08:23 fizzie, the roof window looks strange? 15:08:38 I don't see any roof windows there. 15:08:53 fizzie, what is the thing in the upper right corner. White 15:09:03 That's the ceiling of the door. 15:09:07 It's very near, so it's a bit blurrey. 15:09:09 oh 15:09:22 hm 15:09:28 fizzie: haha that pumpkin looks so happey. 15:09:31 Torches look a bit strange. 15:09:35 yaaaay ima pumpken 15:09:57 I've been meaning to try tiling the default textures to 256x256 sometime 15:10:01 it'd look weird 15:10:10 well, except, things like pumpkins would be just scaled up ofc 15:10:40 Obsidian in scribblecraft looks rather unimpressive. Here's the obsidian road: http://zem.fi/~fis/scribble2.png 15:11:02 Purpley. 15:11:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:11:18 Purpley with little stars. 15:11:19 fizzie: TRIED TRONIC? 15:11:27 It's the best! Kinda! 15:11:54 Not yet. I've seen screenshots. This was the first irregular-sized thing I tried. 15:12:17 fizzie: There is actually a 16x Tronic but eh, the 32x is nicer. 15:12:18 It's a bit incomplete; mobs aren't scribbled, for one thing. 15:12:41 fizzie: BTW, the instructions on the Tronic page are overcomplicated; all you need to do is check Custom Water and Lava in the HD texture fixer, and then _de-check_ Animated Water and Lava. 15:12:48 And you get Tronic's custom water/lava and the animations of those. 15:12:49 Vorpal, are you playing FS2 yet. 15:12:55 Because you SHOULD BE 15:13:03 (Animated Water/Lava actually mean "disregard the texture pack's and use the default". So you have to uncheck them.) 15:13:29 Phantom_Hoover, when I finished MI2 and MI3 sure. Why not. Which based on the schedule for the spring will be during the summer 15:13:39 fizzie: Although it's pointless to try if you don't have Better Light installed. 15:13:44 But everyone should have Better Light installed! 15:13:49 elliott, fine then you should play it. 15:13:52 Vorpal: MI3 can be completed in less than a day. 15:13:57 Vorpal is too busy micromanaging. 15:14:07 elliott, yes so can MI2 given a walkthrough :P 15:14:12 Vorpal: I mean first time. 15:14:16 Maybe two or three days at the most. 15:14:21 elliott, oh, well MI2 can't be that I know 15:14:33 MI2 is a rather difficult game. 15:14:50 elliott, I would say MI2 is harder than MI1 15:14:55 Well, yes. 15:14:57 Tronic's sand looks like fudge. 15:15:06 Vorpal: Surely you've completed MI2 by now? Dinky Island is right before the end of the game. 15:15:18 Unless you can't get rid of LeChuck. 15:15:20 elliott, well I haven't had time / felt like playing 15:15:45 I should make that Textual Texture Pack Deewiant said. :p 15:15:54 WATERWATERWATERWATEROBSIDIANLAVALAVALAVALAVA 15:16:26 elliott, PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG COW! 15:16:47 CREEPERCREEPERCREEPERCREEPER 15:17:00 ah that has the right number of syllables. Works better 15:17:17 TRACKMINECARTTRACKTRACKTRACKTRACKTRACK 15:17:22 TRACKTRACKMINECARTTRACKTRACKTRACKTRACK 15:20:13 Also, the scribbled sun: http://zem.fi/~fis/scribble3.png 15:20:16 It's not very realistic. 15:21:17 fizzie will you play FS2 15:21:29 I doubt that. 15:22:33 :( 15:25:37 It sounds a bit too actiony. 15:26:23 Vorpal: Still not helping with Cube? 15:28:56 elliott, haven't decided 15:30:48 Phantom_Hoover: QEWB KOM HALP 15:32:08 Phantom_Hoover: CKUBE COMOE HALWEP 15:32:56 Vorpal: What is this cobbles. 15:33:44 elliott, ? I'm not online atm. What are you talking about 15:33:54 Vorpal: At the bottom left of the cube. 15:34:04 There's this cobble thing blocking the way of the drainage, but it's somehow been drained further. 15:34:06 elliott, huh, not me 15:34:11 Must have been. 15:34:31 elliott, oh you mean that early experiment in a different way of draining? 15:34:38 which turned out to not work very well 15:34:41 Vorpal: What was it? 15:34:54 elliott, testing to see how slow draining with buckets was 15:35:01 Slow, one presumes. 15:35:22 elliott, yep. slow, mostly due to annoying streams 15:36:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:36:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 15:36:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:36:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Client Quit). 15:37:31 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:38:52 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 15:42:12 Phantom_Hoover: What. The fuck. 15:42:25 What? 15:42:38 Phantom_Hoover: I respawned inside ... some underground thing, very vertical. There were torches. 15:42:39 What. 15:42:56 I can't connect... 15:43:10 ineiros: Stop unleashing Cthulhu. 15:43:15 Oop, I'm connecting. 15:55:10 -!- Hilbert has joined. 15:58:07 there's no way to make an inexhaustable lava pond 15:58:10 ghhh 15:59:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:59:25 -!- [tubot] has joined. 15:59:43 Phantom_Hoover: I respawned inside ... some underground thing, very vertical. There were torches. <-- figured it out? 16:00:22 I assume it was the excavation under the cube. 16:01:45 Well, *inside 16:05:26 -!- [tubot] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:06:53 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 16:09:25 that's weird 16:09:32 all trees on the map are burning 16:10:17 nooga, might be some lava close by? 16:10:34 nooga, and it can spread pretty easily then 16:10:57 nooga, probably not all trees, but all trees in that forest or such 16:11:00 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:21:25 Vorpal: we're opening up some of the drainage platform to the excavation. 16:22:00 are eggs edible? 16:22:04 elliott, you mean that old experiment? 16:22:11 Vorpal: No? 16:22:11 elliott, oh wait 16:22:18 Vorpal: I mean the platform where torching is done. 16:22:19 elliott, you mean you started digging down? 16:22:23 The first few columns we're opening to excavation. 16:22:30 Vorpal: In fact, the excavation is only one or two blocks down from that platform. 16:22:42 PH fell to bedrock with two towers of gravel just before, and that's on the newest line. 16:22:59 elliott, right. Well my ISP seems to have issues atm. Google takes 20 seconds to load, when it does. on IRC I get lag spikes every few minutes. And so on. 16:23:20 The server seems down right now anyway. 16:23:30 elliott, and yes it is just below. Mostly due to TNT messing up the ceiling :P 16:24:06 elliott, originally I believe the ladder went down far enough to have a safety margin of about 5 blocks below the deepest part of the sea. 16:24:47 Phantom_Hoover: Back up. 16:28:23 ffffffffffffu 16:28:38 exploding dick ruined my deathtrap 16:29:35 Nightmare fuel of the day: the creeper design is based off a failed pig model. 16:31:59 Phantom_Hoover: just mcmaping 16:32:02 And yeah, I know. 16:32:03 *mcmapping 16:34:17 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:37:42 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:38:05 -!- Sasha has joined. 16:39:47 -!- Hilbert has joined. 16:41:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:41:53 erm 16:41:58 where the fuck is elliott 16:42:01 yo 16:42:02 oklopol 16:42:05 i'm here 16:42:06 ah good 16:42:11 am i not talking enough 16:42:13 should i talk 16:42:14 at EXTREME LEVELS 16:42:20 oklopol: did you obtain minecraft 16:42:20 well you scared me to death there 16:42:32 yeah i'm normally talking ALL THE TIME 16:42:38 no. i'm still playing the version without servering 16:43:00 oklopol: ffff buy it you bastard we're working on a 128x128x128 cube 16:43:05 and we need labourers 16:43:23 you have usually said something in the five seconds after my join, and often it was not at me 16:43:32 oh cool 16:43:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:44:07 oklopol: also we're doing it in the sea. so we have to clear like 128x128x10 of water. 16:44:14 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 16:44:48 i've spent most of my mc time collecting mountains in boxes 16:45:24 :D 16:45:30 although tbh, since one takes about 10 hours, so i've only collected 3 sofar :D 16:45:36 *-so 16:46:05 clear water? 16:46:17 Water in the ocean isn't infinite? 16:46:36 in second life, there's infinite water 16:47:17 In Second Life, you can't pick up water and place it elsewhere 16:47:23 oklopol: did I mention we're using tnt 16:47:47 i didn't use tnt for the mountains, because i didn't have any sand 16:47:58 after 3 mountains i realized my castle was being build AT THE FUCKING SEASHORTE 16:48:04 oklopol: xDDD 16:48:06 *SHORE 16:48:07 *built 16:48:07 fuck 16:48:39 i had tons of that black stuff, maybe not enough for the whole mountain, but would've helped a lot still 16:48:40 Water in the ocean isn't infinite? 16:48:45 It's complicated. 16:48:45 oklopol: did i mention that we have to excavate 128x128x64 16:48:50 oklopol: the entire underground 16:48:50 are you giving yourself that tnt? 16:48:56 Water is renewable, but it can be removed. 16:49:01 oklopol: no, we duped it with a bug :} 16:49:04 you did not, but i sort of assumed that 16:49:06 oklopol: but we're running out 16:49:14 what bug? 16:49:23 oklopol: server only 16:49:28 oklopol: you could duplicate stacks using a chest 16:49:45 oklopol: hopefully ineiros will give us a kit (hMod thing, /kit foo gives you the items in kit foo) with lots of tnt in it to help. 16:50:01 purely academic interest, i usually try to avoid using bugs when they are obvious coding errors 16:50:21 i'm sure that's very unique of me. 16:50:31 oklopol: Notch is the worst coder. 16:50:33 oklopol: you know why it happened? 16:50:35 yeah 16:50:37 oklopol: inventory was client-side. 16:50:38 oklopol: seriously. 16:50:40 * Sgeo once used a duplication bug in an online game 16:50:45 oklopol: clients told the server what inventory they had. and it believed them. 16:50:54 oklopol: you could also place any block you wanted, just by having your client tell the server you wanted to place that one. 16:51:03 Then gave the results to [in-game] poliically important persons 16:51:14 Trying to increase the wealth of the cities 16:51:16 >.> 16:51:31 yeah like if i had control of the mints i would print like 1000000000000 dollar bills? 16:51:31 and then i'd be rich 16:51:36 because like Sgeo i don't understand economics 16:51:50 Water in the ocean isn't infinite? <-- it dupes only on top of a solid block 16:52:07 see wiki or details 16:52:28 elliott, did I mention this was many years ago 16:52:52 Sgeo: no you didn't 16:53:05 how do you usually do that kind of stuff? i mean afaiu wow only uses the server as a database, can you cheat it? 16:53:50 maybe i knew this stuff in the past 16:53:52 oklopol: cheating happens solely when the server trusts the client and doesn't do computing itself. 16:53:54 which is stupid. 16:54:13 but you can't do the computing on the server if there are millions of players 16:54:22 oklopol: sure you can 16:54:22 oklopol, well, in that case I just dropped the object on the ground, then clicked to pick it up multiple times before the server got around to deleting the physical object from the ground 16:54:23 well 16:54:25 maybe in something like wow 16:54:29 but not in a nontrivial game 16:54:30 oklopol: EVE Online runs mostly on a single server 16:54:33 oklopol: and it's /huge/ 16:54:36 huh 16:54:40 cool. 16:54:47 (there are other servers but there is only one main one for most of the world) 16:54:54 oklopol: ofc this method is expensive. 16:55:43 I need a way to prove equations automatically 16:55:52 Phantom_Hoover: ping 16:55:54 but what if the clients cheat and show the player more than they are supposed to see, like say separate distinct hues of gray more clearly 16:56:00 Pong. 16:56:10 Phantom_Hoover: ping mc 16:56:10 clearly the server should send the whole stream of pictures rendered 16:56:16 elliott, ping 16:56:26 Phantom_Hoover: what? 16:56:30 Phantom_Hoover: when are you going to finish the tnt 16:56:31 oklopol, well... it's just a game, cheating isn't the end of the world 16:56:44 Especially if stopping the cheating amounts to unreasonable measures like that 16:57:19 Same think with attempting to prevent things like seeing through walls 16:58:06 thing 16:59:39 "LG: "Weve added internet connections washing machines refrigerators, ovens and robotic cleaners using Wi-Fi technology."" 16:59:42 DEAR GOD WHY? 17:00:05 Ok, mayybe refrigerators make sense, but for the rest: DEAR GOD WHY 17:00:37 elliott, got lagged. 17:00:45 DO NOT DETONATE THE CHARGE YOURSELF 17:00:58 Phantom_Hoover: there's a charge there? 17:01:05 i don't see one 17:01:08 No. But don't mess with it. 17:01:15 Phantom_Hoover: okay 17:01:53 Phantom_Hoover: down:| 17:06:43 did anyone play zzos game? 17:06:58 I dont' know how to kill the dragons 17:07:23 pour water in their mouth 17:07:35 that's dogs 17:07:40 ah 17:07:51 yeah sorry, i was confused because i have no idea what game this is 17:08:48 http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town 17:09:58 do dragons drop their tail if you scare them 17:10:05 I cannot sscare them! 17:10:13 they just chase you like dalekes 17:13:11 what happens if i put lava in a square container and then delete the walls? will it spill? 17:14:20 nooga, sources of liquids act like an infinite source of flowing liquid 17:14:25 nooga: yes. 17:14:29 But there's stil finite amount of source 17:14:39 (except with water in some cases) 17:14:45 that's like the timeless question of whether a tree will fall if no one's in the forest providing gravity 17:14:55 ;f 17:15:19 i didn't actually read the question 17:15:34 i'm looking for a way to contain some amount of lava in the center of my trap 17:15:37 let me show you 17:15:42 If a tree falls in a forest that's not near any object much larger than itself, does it fall? 17:16:05 or maybe not 17:16:06 Sgeo, die now. 17:16:23 yes 17:16:28 that one even i can do 17:17:39 if two bodies are in a stable gravitational orbit does one move around the other? 17:19:08 let G operate from the right on a set X, then the orbit of an element of x is defined as xG 17:24:27 I hate programming in haskell 17:25:22 how does anyone do that 17:26:45 j-invariant: how? basically you write text files in a special format, then there's something called a "Compiler" that transforms your text into instructions the computer understands 17:27:07 olsner: That much I can do 17:29:24 oklopol, how goes the Minecraft? 17:29:31 I have a feeling that no programming language could be good enough 17:29:53 there will always be a point where yo know the limitaions and just so happens.. every program you try to write is pushing against them 17:30:26 ttp://i56.tinypic.com/1er9x.png 17:30:35 this is my trap (with blocked center) 17:30:58 i'd like to hang some lava in the center 17:35:56 j-invariant is becoming a little me! 17:37:32 Sgeo, no. No he isn't. 17:37:56 j-invariant is intelligent and has a mental age >= 14. 17:46:35 The TTP protocol; for those that consider HTTP too Hyper. 17:46:59 TTP aka Gopher 17:47:38 nooga: You could dig all those dry blocks in the middle one deeper, and then fill that pit with lava. 17:47:56 TTP aka postal service. 17:47:58 :D 17:47:58 but then 17:48:04 IIRC the water won't spread any further even if there's a straight drop there. 17:48:05 loot will burn 17:48:11 Well, sure. 17:49:35 Put a piece of cactus in there instead, I guess that doesn't destroy drops? 17:49:44 oh 17:49:46 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:49:49 i can;t find cacti 17:50:15 They're everywhere in desers; you could use a map-making proggie to find the nearest desert. 17:51:40 I can't be sure about the "doesn't destroy items" thing, haven't done any traps. 17:57:51 -!- pumpkin has joined. 17:58:38 no deserts ;| 18:00:39 http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/fuzzy-logic-0103.html 18:00:50 How does one go about making a nondeterministic chip? 18:01:01 Or is it deterministic, but opaque for programming purposes? 18:01:07 Sgeo: quantum? 18:01:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:02:09 Good point, but I doubt that that would be smaller and ... actually, I don't know if the article is referring to present day technology or not 18:02:14 I think it is 18:04:26 * Sgeo goes to read reddit commentshttp://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ewl83/the_surprising_usefulness_of_sloppy_arithmetic/ 18:05:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:05:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:07:35 How awesome would an SNES demo that uses every special chip be? 18:08:12 pikhq: Carpilcat. 18:08:43 elliott: Is that the result of an awesomeness overflow? 18:08:52 no cat overflow 18:09:27 pikhq, you mean, every single chip that can be put in the cartridge? 18:10:09 pikhq, if so, is that even possible? 18:10:20 Vorpal: Yes. 18:10:33 pikhq, oh wait, it hooks it up to the system bus doesn't it? 18:10:42 Yes, they all hook up to the system bus. 18:10:58 pikhq, memory mapping? 18:11:07 or does it use other forms of addressing 18:11:33 Well, except for the S-DD1, which actually hooks into the ROM address lines... 18:12:03 Vorpal: They're memory mapped. 18:12:21 pikhq, possible issues I see are: 1) running out of memory space and/or IO addresses for all the chipsets 2) is the power supplied enough for all these chipsets? How many amps are the pins rated for? 18:12:43 1) Shouldn't be an issue. 18:12:58 2) Dunno. 18:13:15 Except for the S-DD1, they use like 2 or 3 addresses... 18:13:26 It occurs to me that I have no idea how game catridges work 18:13:43 I thought they were something like ROM flash memory 18:13:45 ... Oh, well. I think the Super FX and SA-1 use more than that. 18:14:06 Computing actually takes place on those? 18:14:30 Though the SA-1 and the Super FX both multiprocessing. 18:14:42 Both *do* multiprocessing. 18:14:46 Sgeo: with special chips, yes. 18:15:17 Sgeo: The cartridges for *most* systems are just ROM and maybe a bank switcher, and optionally some Flash or battery-backed RAM. 18:15:31 Sgeo, for SNES that is. I don't think N64 cartridges were quite as capable for example 18:15:35 Sgeo: A handful of systems expose the system bus to the cartridge. 18:16:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAX0gJt-aZg 18:16:17 It is *technically* possible to have an SNES cartridge that has its own CPU and *shuts off* the console's CPU. 18:16:17 Java goes JING JING: Deal with it. 18:16:32 (while still using the SPC and PPU on the SNES) 18:16:54 And there have been several SNES cartridges that added an additional CPU for the SNES. 18:17:12 Heck, there was even an actual Gameboy-on-a-cartridge for it. 18:25:10 I think the only other system to really do that is the Genesis, though... 18:25:24 (this being how the 32x was implemented.) 18:26:30 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 18:28:55 -!- Hilbert has joined. 18:29:13 I suppose you *could* do something similar for the Atari 2600. 18:29:34 By having the cartridge do nothing but write into the scanline buffer. 18:30:31 (yes, it had a scanline buffer, not a frame buffer) 18:31:11 my trap does not work :| 18:31:45 monsters don't get any damage from cacti, dunno why 18:32:58 They are supposed to. 18:40:50 creepers seem to die 18:40:57 but not sheletons 18:41:07 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 18:44:40 -!- comex has joined. 18:45:24 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 18:47:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:50:38 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:52:57 -!- j-invariant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:53:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:55:30 hmm 18:55:37 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:55:44 skeletons refuse to be hurt from caci 18:56:09 -!- elliott has joined. 18:56:22 down? 18:57:22 For me, at least. 18:57:53 Back up. 18:59:19 * Sgeo_ wants in 18:59:22 * Sgeo_ goes nuts 19:09:15 * Sgeo_ watches a faked house on fire vid 19:09:32 Well, not faked, but it's clearly an attempt at a recreation of 19:15:08 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:15:20 -!- elliott has joined. 19:15:49 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:16:03 -!- elliott has joined. 19:16:15 Poor guy loses his house on YouTube, and people JUST have to make fun of him because he's an idiot 19:19:39 you mean in minecraft? 19:21:50 Yes 19:22:28 that was such a sad video 19:23:24 *hilarious 19:23:49 hi ais52 19:23:50 ais523: 19:24:25 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:24:34 pumpkin, houses can be rebuilt 19:24:41 -!- elliott has joined. 19:24:45 Phantom_Hoover: why do not stop the water 19:25:14 oklopol: did you blow up a shitload of tnt or something 19:25:18 elliott, I was climbing up it. 19:25:29 did he 19:25:30 confirm/deny 19:26:37 elliott, is it just my imagination, or are you being incoherent? 19:26:42 what 19:26:44 * Sgeo_ rereads 19:27:28 For some reason, I was wrongy filtering out nicks 19:27:39 why do not stop the water did he confirm/deny 19:27:54 It's a bit spillover from the game-chat, so it's hard to follow perhaps. 19:28:02 I need to go eat 19:28:07 next project 19:28:16 #xkcd-minecraft has a chat bridge 19:28:21 unnecessary compiler in Haskel :-} 19:28:27 ll 19:31:07 ll ? 19:31:22 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:32:52 "Haskell", I presume. 19:33:20 I think there's some hMod plugin for an IRC/chat channel gateway. (And of course a client-based one would be easy too.) 19:33:37 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 19:36:27 fizzie, yes - I was missing a single l :-} 19:39:14 -!- Hilbert has quit (Quit: Hilbert). 19:41:45 Do people accidentally burn down houses in MC often? 19:42:15 Forests more often, I think. 19:42:16 Any house that I build is likely to be about as "creative" as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQvYJfgv2Y4 19:46:16 -!- Hilbert has joined. 19:47:36 -!- zzo38_____ has joined. 19:48:02 -!- Hilbert has left (?). 19:48:09 j-invariant: You cannot kill the dragons (the other dragon took away everything you need to do so). 19:48:32 But you can use the rule about walking out of the edges of the board, to your advantage, in this situation. 19:48:40 Remember this is important rule!! 19:51:47 Another important rule: Don't set up a fireplace if your house is made of wood and you don't know what you're doing 19:53:11 How far away does the flame need to be from anything flammable? 19:53:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:53:58 It is possible to block the door so that it won't close. Also, dragons are allowed to move into lava but it is difficult to see due to red color. 19:54:47 And if the door doesn't close, you can walk back and forth between those two boards and step in occupied spaces. 19:56:45 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:57:09 -!- elliott has joined. 19:59:23 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:59:50 -!- elliott has joined. 20:00:03 sdfsdf 20:00:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:00:48 Sgeo_: I don't know the rules, but the fireplace I have in my house is three blocks away sideways (and two above) the wooden floorboards. 20:01:06 (In the bunker I also have wooden fences directly next to a fire, but I don't know if wooden fences are flammable.) 20:01:47 is it down 20:02:34 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:02:50 There seems to be a demand for an istheesotericminecraftserverdownornot.com. 20:02:51 -!- zzo38_____ has quit (Quit: But don't kill BIG_MONSTER.). 20:03:00 Oh, joy. 20:03:27 Republican legislators in 5 different states are trying to pass laws that would "cancel automatic United States citizenship for the American-born children of illegal immigrants." 20:03:59 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:04:10 I was unaware that states had the power to define citizenship even under very strict interpretations of the Constitution. 20:04:38 rofl 20:04:50 In fact, I could've sworn that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." 20:04:52 -!- elliott has joined. 20:04:54 ugh 20:04:56 is it stil down 20:04:57 still 20:05:06 (source: 14th amendment, US Constitution) 20:05:06 pikhq: no you misunderstand 20:05:25 you forgot the 2001st Republican Amendment 20:05:36 the one that redefines the US constitution as toilet paper 20:05:38 Ah, right, the one that says "FUCK YOU" 20:05:50 I completely forgot about the "FUCK YOU" clause. 20:06:06 see, you should read these things more often 20:10:00 on the other hand, NJ is attempting to ban full-body scanners and patdowns 20:10:07 suddenoutbreakofcommonsense 20:10:36 (In the bunker I also have wooden fences directly next to a fire, but I don't know if wooden fences are flammable.) <-- I don't think so. I used them next to lava 20:10:49 as in, a barrier for the lava 20:11:20 Vorpal: oi, get to the cube, oklopol is helping 20:11:23 and there's a huge flood 20:11:26 and we're connecting with excavation 20:11:29 ALL HANDS ON DECK 20:12:01 * Sgeo_ wants to help :( 20:12:13 Sgeo_: so go and get a debit card. 20:13:04 elliott, I still have fucked up connection 20:13:13 Vorpal: oklopol is playing from a 3g stick. 20:13:15 man up 20:13:53 Would it be too annoying to use a touchpad in MC? 20:13:59 Sgeo_: i use a trackpad 20:14:01 elliott, dude, I get lag spikes like 50 seconds every few minutes. Against everything. If not working tomorrow I will call the ISP. 20:14:09 since tracepath indicates it is on their network 20:14:12 Also: Small houses don't need lighting, do they? 20:14:13 Vorpal: oklopol is playing on zero to ten fps. 20:14:15 (it is closed this time of day) 20:14:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 20:14:18 Sgeo_: yes they do 20:14:19 well 20:14:22 1x1x2 ones don't 20:14:26 elliott, since when was I him? 20:14:27 and maybe 2x2x2 20:14:30 but 4x4x2... 20:15:36 10fps! That's like what I used to get in SL 20:15:45 Ah, fucked up times 20:17:34 Vorpal: donate some gravel/sand then, we're on critically low supplies 20:22:20 WTF is gravel for? 20:22:52 Yay gravity-obedient structures? 20:22:54 Have you cleared all the gravel from all the chests by the railway? 20:23:09 Deewiant: Hmm? 20:23:11 Deewiant: No. 20:23:21 Sgeo_: It's for draining. 20:23:25 Sgeo_: It's in the sea. 20:23:34 Deewiant: Can we have it? 20:23:43 Sure 20:27:40 Deewiant: We're raiding it now. BTW, you should totes come help out. 20:30:47 Deewiant: yo i can't see anychests 20:31:54 Look closer I guess 20:31:59 Deewiant: no show me to them :D 20:32:05 aha 20:32:12 I don't remember where they are, they're just by the track 20:32:22 Deewiant: Filled with a whole 9 gravel and lots of cobble. 20:32:45 Yes, most of it will be cobble. 20:33:04 Deewiant: ok let me get this straight: there is more than 512 gravel we're talking about here, yes? 20:34:46 Probably not that much, but there might be a few hundred 20:35:11 I didn't exactly count what came up. 20:35:51 And anything and everything may have been pilfered since the digging, of course. :-P 20:36:08 -!- hiato has joined. 20:37:30 hi hiato 20:37:42 Hai 20:38:02 nice to see that you're still alive, ehird 20:38:49 nope 20:38:50 totally dead 20:38:59 bleh, cant seem to get to voxelperfect atm, host name blah blah 20:39:04 csb 20:39:15 hiato: it expired 20:39:17 so you will never get there 20:39:18 hiato: use esolangs.org 20:39:19 try esolangs.org 20:39:30 whoa, seriously? Heh, damn 20:40:42 Deewiant: so will you help construct the cube :P 20:40:47 hiato: have you been addicted to minecraft yet 20:41:10 I've been there a bit but not much 20:41:24 Deewiant: there = the cube? 20:41:55 Yes 20:42:06 elliott: yes, it killed my exams. Famous last words: "I'll only play minecraft for a couple of minutes." 20:42:15 hiato: YOU SHOULD PLAY ON OUR SERVER 20:42:18 :D 20:42:26 wutyes 20:42:30 address? 20:42:41 hiato: um ask ineiros he officially handles non-Finnish administrations 20:42:45 (Finns get in automatically) 20:43:00 (thanks to Finn Privilege) 20:43:00 ah, ok 20:43:24 ineiros, fizzie, Vorpal, me, Phantom_Hoover, Deewiant, and oklopol are on it 20:43:30 also technically Gracenotes but he never comes on 20:43:34 ineiros: So, I'm not Finnish, but I think we can work things out. May I play on the minecraft server 20:43:37 nice 20:44:00 oh 20:44:01 nailor too 20:44:04 but he isn't from here 20:44:10 so oerjan is above minecraft then? :P 20:44:15 absolutely! 20:44:18 hiato: you _may_ have to get a face transplant from a Finn btw 20:44:52 hiato: oh, and we're wimps, so there's no monsters or health. the fact that we have a high-up transportation system in the sky might have something to do with it too 20:44:56 elliott: this I can live with. But, I forsee terrible puns. "You got a face transplant, oh, yeah, he didn't finnish" 20:45:12 "I think it gives my face a nice finnish." 20:45:14 I would like to see this 20:45:21 yeah, and so on 20:45:38 hiato: Right now we're working on draining the sea and excavating down to bedrock so we can build a 128x128x128 cube. Out of glass 20:45:40 *glass. 20:45:42 Lit by lava. 20:46:32 That is way. too. cool. Though, I imagine you're not nearly 1/83494th into it 20:46:43 hiato: we've drained like 7 to 10 lines of sea so far :P 20:46:50 hiato: and have excavated a few pits down to bedrock 20:46:53 but yeah, it needs more manpower. 20:46:55 oh, nicely done 20:47:07 *mindless power 20:47:11 hiato: we do have multiple stacks of TNT. but they're running out :D 20:47:12 which I am happy to provide 20:47:19 (thanks, item duplication bug!) 20:47:23 (which is now fixed) 20:47:25 heh 20:47:30 oh :/ 20:47:46 but we'll see if the server can't provide us with some tnt. :p 20:47:56 that's weird 20:47:56 hiato: btw this is going to take something like 100k glass :D 20:48:15 elliott: no, we do it the navvy way. Spades and picks 20:48:23 and buckets :P 20:48:26 i tried to leave spawn point and went far into the sea 20:48:31 hiato: no, we're clearing the water with gravel and sand 20:48:33 cleared with torches 20:48:45 and after 10 minutes i saw my own base 20:48:55 nooga: xD 20:49:11 Sheesh, you guys have too much time. If only I had known sooner, I wouldn't have had that same problem 20:49:12 there's this effect on real desert 20:49:38 when you think that you're going straight and in fact you're running in circles 20:50:03 hiato: btw i dreamed up this cube ... and also built a previous project which is two stairs from bedrock to top altitude (never finished) 20:50:03 i'm trying fo find a desert or plains 20:50:09 because no-one's legs are equally long, supposedly 20:50:11 i _may_ be slightly crazy for a megascale engineer 20:50:24 olsner: how's that relevant 20:50:28 elliott: just a tad. 20:51:04 elliott: because it's the cause of the effect nooga talked about 20:51:10 olsner: +1 20:51:22 olsner: ah 20:51:49 aha! 20:51:54 now i've got my desert 20:52:36 elliott: what ever happened to that pascal redux of yours? 20:56:05 hiato: i don't remember finishing it :D 20:56:14 hiato, *I* started making a 200-metre long warship. 20:56:22 when you think that you're going straight and in fact you're running in circles <-- isn't that a bit hard to achieve in a game afaik based on rectangular blocks? 20:56:42 oerjan: "22:49 < olsner> because no-one's legs are equally long, supposedly" :P 20:57:12 Phantom_Hoover: boat-see warship or star wars? That effects the awesomeness of the project, so answer carefully 20:57:16 oerjan: you can move in any direction 20:57:17 elliott: ah well 20:57:41 elliott, oklopol, tell me when you've used up the gravel and have collected all of the torched columns. 20:57:48 hiato, spaceship. 20:58:01 Phantom_Hoover: umm, I'm terrible at torching. 20:58:18 Phantom_Hoover: +17EXP. Nice, that sounds pretty cool 20:58:27 elliott, yes, but I've torched several columns already. 20:58:44 Phantom_Hoover: how about we finish this column and do another one and then you come and torch them 20:59:05 hiato, turns out that laying the hull on a 200-metre long ellipsoid is very boring. 21:00:08 man I just wanna get into this server 21:00:40 ineiros ineiros ineiros 21:02:24 idle : 2 days 3 hours 48 mins 50 secs 21:02:46 not immensely promising, that 21:03:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:04:28 Phantom_Hoover: almost out. 21:04:38 oerjan: he never talks. :p 21:04:45 Revving up MC... 21:05:14 ye olde telepathic alien 21:27:10 hiato: /msg 21:29:09 Deewiant: is it down 21:29:09 Phantom_Hoover: 21:29:10 oklopol: 21:29:16 elliott: It was 21:29:25 still feels down to me :D 21:29:43 Well I got in and now I'm falling at y = -2800 21:30:32 Deewiant: Chunk loading error lol 21:30:35 or just no chunks at all 21:30:40 Deewiant: just reconnect 21:30:48 i found a marvelous beach but probably not far enough yet 21:31:01 Yeah, I know what it is I was just hoping it'd eventually load the chunk and bump me back up 21:31:08 Deewiant: it never does 21:31:12 oklopol: you're online again? 21:31:18 oh no 21:31:19 oklopol: also haven't you been walking for like 10 minutes, and passed through a large forest 21:31:23 I can't get back in 21:31:31 oklopol: ? 21:31:32 i passed through a large forest 21:31:39 oklopol: it's probably fine then :P 21:31:44 but i haven't actually been walking for 10 minutes, since with my lag, i walk half the time 21:31:58 and half the time i'm disoriented, or waiting for walking to start 21:31:59 oklopol: is the beach big 21:32:04 dunno yet 21:32:07 oklopol: i'd wait until you hit upon a desert 21:32:07 i just know it's marvelous 21:32:08 with cacti 21:32:12 oooh 21:32:14 since that's like 21:32:15 infinity sand 21:32:22 oklopol: in fact the land you started on was desert biome 21:32:26 aha 21:32:26 back up 21:35:56 elliott, that castle. marked up outer walls. However it is in a forest. I cleared out the future interior of the outer walls (7 thick) from anything burnable. This will be epic 21:48:02 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram). 21:59:26 hello 21:59:46 elliott: sshc is still silent o_0 21:59:55 what 22:00:26 you know, the guy who came in here asking for the exact command to install... wait what again? 22:00:43 SSH, C! 22:00:52 that was not sshc 22:01:00 and it was orca or something 22:01:05 yea orca 22:01:08 who was it then? 22:01:22 dunno 22:01:24 some random guy 22:01:28 welp 22:01:46 i think he won't be coming here asking ubuntu tech support questions so quickly 22:03:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:05:01 -!- variable has joined. 22:05:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:05:34 HELLO EVERYONE 22:14:16 hello sweetheart 22:17:36 Coincidentally, for mcmap users: I pushed (a while ago, in fact) a bit experimental opengl branch, which does the map-drawing (and scaling) with opengl. It looks approximately the same and might easily have a few bugs more. 22:33:07 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:36:29 fuck 22:38:32 suddenly, there was no minecraft 22:39:41 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 22:40:14 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:40:49 oklopol: wut 22:41:01 fizzie: OpenGL does scaling really badly 22:41:01 Well, while I'm disconnected I might as well update mcmap. 22:41:10 fizzie, what's the key for scaling? 22:41:26 oklopol! 22:41:33 Phantom_Hoover: an experimental branch 22:41:36 so pulling won't get it 22:41:43 hiato: ok so "make" should do compiling fine if you have the libs 22:41:52 So even the SDL version doesn't have it? 22:41:54 hiato: then _build/mcmap a322.org:25566 but you probably want options 22:42:12 hiato: -x N scales every block times N, -s WxH shows WxH blocks at a time on the ma p window 22:42:15 hiato: 22:42:16 right, yeah, investigating 22:42:20 hiato: or if you want no map, just pass -m 22:42:32 Phantom_Hoover: page-up/page-down makes block-size one pixel larger/smaller. 22:42:35 Phantom_Hoover: scaling is just pgup/pgdown. 22:42:37 or -x N on the command line 22:42:39 Oh, right. 22:42:49 hiato: anyway, once you start it, you connect to 127.0.0.1 in minecraft 22:42:55 elliott: It's scaled in the GL_NEAREST mode, so it's just the same as the SDL scaling. 22:43:05 No bilinear filtering or anything. 22:43:09 fizzie: Hmm. Is there any reason to use OpenGL? 22:43:19 Well, not much. 22:43:24 fizzie: Is the code shorter or longer? :p 22:44:04 A bit longer, but that's mostly because there's an additional layer of complexity; I render in 4x4 chunk regions into 64x64 textures and draw those on quads. 22:44:22 It'd be shorter for a simpler 16x16 textures, one per block, approach. 22:44:38 The drawing itself is shorter, I think. 22:45:12 I think the player-direction-indicator might be more accurate there. (But it's still quantized not to cause redraws for all mouse movements.) 22:45:25 fizzie: I say stick with SDL ... 22:45:31 Yes, it's a bit pointless. 22:45:45 It still uses SDL for input handling, anyway. 22:45:49 hmm, it cant seem to connect 22:45:58 fizzie, do you actually have any plans for large-scale release of this? 22:46:02 hiato: how did you start mcmap? 22:46:06 Phantom_Hoover: I hope not, not with //goto. 22:46:09 ./_build/mcmap a322.org:25566 22:46:20 hiato: did you connect with minecraft? 22:46:23 to 127.0.0.1 22:46:45 Or "localhost"; either works. 22:46:52 I mean, mcmap cant connect, or at least, hasn't said anything beyond waiting for connection 22:47:05 It's "waiting for connection" when it waits for you to connect to it. 22:47:06 hiato: yes. 22:47:09 hiato: you have to connect to it first 22:47:12 with minecraft 22:47:24 oh, yes 22:48:36 -773, 306 22:50:34 -!- azaq231 has joined. 22:50:57 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:58:30 hiato: is it down 22:59:20 Phantom_Hoover: oklopol 22:59:21 Yeah, I figured as much 22:59:25 right 22:59:27 elliott, it is for me. 22:59:35 ineiros, stop torrenting! 23:00:14 it has come to my attention 23:00:17 that it is down. 23:00:33 hiato: oklopol: the server runs on the highly reliable, fast platform of "a spare computer in ineiros' house hooked up to his cable connection". 23:00:36 back up lol 23:00:44 subsequently, i have pressed the disconnect button, and am currently not able to get in. 23:00:49 oklopol: it's back up. 23:00:51 good to know our work is in safe hands 23:01:03 hiato: apparently backups are even AUTOMATIC now 23:01:19 Hoorah for technology. 23:01:39 and wit that, I must leave you all. Early (ish) morning »»», cheers 23:02:35 hiato: loser :D 23:02:37 okay bye 23:02:43 fizzie: oklopol demands an mcmap windows binary now 23:03:44 elliott: I'm just building one, as it happens. 23:04:07 fizzie: \o/ 23:04:08 | 23:04:08 /'\ 23:05:06 oh, and by the way, thanks all for that, was rather fun. 23:05:08 In fact, the only thing that's missing is getting glib's option-parsing parse the single-string WinMain command line. (Unless if there's some mingw flag that makes it use a "traditional-style" main instead of WinMain.) 23:05:19 fizzie: Will the ansi colours work? :p 23:05:22 hiato: np, hope to see you again :) 23:05:24 and thanks elliott for helping me crack the ip 23:05:38 tomorrow is another day, I expect 23:05:41 elliott: I really don't think they will, and neither will the readline input, in fact. 23:05:41 fizzie: um i think you can just use main() 23:05:48 fizzie: since it's a regular "libc" 23:05:54 also, i know there's readline for windows... 23:06:08 I tried to use main, but it insists on having a WinMain when linked, even without the "make a GUI app" -mwindows flag. 23:06:27 fizzie: strtok or whatever then. 23:06:54 Just write a normal C program with main(int argc, char **argv), and 23:06:55 then for full Unicode file names use wchar_t strings and the wide char 23:06:55 versions of the Win32 API explicitly. 23:06:56 --mingw lists 23:06:59 fizzie: Clearly main() works. 23:07:05 Well, it doesn't. 23:07:14 /usr/lib/gcc/i586-mingw32msvc/4.4.4/../../../../i586-mingw32msvc/lib/libmingw32.a(main.o):(.text+0x85): undefined reference to `_WinMain@16' 23:07:18 fizzie: What command line? 23:07:35 i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o mcmap [list of .os] [list of libs] 23:07:50 Maybe it should be mcmap.exe, actually, but anyhow. 23:08:18 jokojokojokojokojoko 23:08:56 surely you're joking 23:09:22 fizzie: Statically linking perchance? 23:10:18 fizzie: ? 23:10:29 Meh, the prebuild mingw dev packages for SDL and glib only have DLL link-stubs. Anyway, I'll just g_strsplit, and wonder about that later. 23:10:44 fizzie: I meant, are you. 23:10:50 Because googling suggests that might be problematic. 23:10:59 Well, no. 23:11:55 A "console" app should use the normal main; maybe I'm just using the wrong flag for that. 23:12:14 fizzie: are you sure -mwindows won't help here 23:12:52 Pretty sure; that's what supposed to turn it from console app mode to GUI app mode, which definitely uses a WinMain. 23:18:00 Okkay. 23:18:06 It will need some DLLs to run, I think. 23:18:22 fizzie: Zip 'em up? oklopol is supremely lazy. 23:18:38 I guess I will. A moment more. 23:20:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:22:45 fizzie: Oklupdate: he's in a hole. 23:23:22 GRAA froggin glib, it wants also gettext and zlib runtimes. (I linked zlib in statically in mcmap, but, well, apparently that was pretty useless.) 23:24:10 At least GTK folks package those up for me; combining. 23:24:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:27:19 $ wine ./mcmap.exe 23:27:19 Usage: 23:27:19 mcmap.exe [OPTION...] host[:port] 23:27:22 Yay, progress. 23:27:26 Let's see if it actually does work. 23:27:53 fizzie: wine testing :-D 23:28:37 Well, it said "starting up", made a window, then hung up... 23:28:52 Of course that might be just a Wine thing. 23:29:00 fizzie: Try it with nomap? 23:29:41 -!- azaq23 has joined. 23:29:48 Well, it connected. 23:29:52 But that seems to be about it. 23:29:59 Maybe //coords wasn't a good idea, though. 23:30:08 -!- azaq231 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:30:17 fizzie: Why not. 23:31:03 Well, um. 23:31:17 It connected, worked, then crashed when I //goto'ed to 100 100 in order to test it. 23:31:29 ** 23:31:29 GLib-GIO:ERROR:gsocket.c:2347:remove_condition_watch: assertion failed: (g_list_find (socket->priv->requested_conditions, condition) != NULL) 23:31:29 err:mmtime:TIME_MMTimeStop Timer still active?! 23:31:36 This all could be more Wine things, of course. 23:32:14 oklopol: If you want to try, http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-win.zip -- I'd give it about 8% odds of actually working. 23:32:36 -1139, 737 23:33:22 Unzip to a folder, then open a command prompt there and run "mcmap -m serverhost:port" for the more-likely-to-work nomap mode. 23:33:28 oklopol: did it actually work. 23:33:37 Phantom_Hoover: 23:33:40 Phantom_Hoover: ^^ //goto time 23:33:47 Also, I guess I shouldn't bother censorshipping the host:port since elliott already blabbed it on-channel. 23:33:51 elliott, hm? 23:33:55 fizzie: I did NOT 23:34:05 fizzie: that was hiato 23:34:08 hiato: then _build/mcmap a322.org:25566 but you probably want options 23:34:09 well i did but ages ago 23:34:13 Oh, you did NOT? 23:34:15 fizzie: he said it before me. 23:34:17 :p 23:34:19 Oh. 23:34:27 fizzie: it's been mentioned like 5 times now. 23:34:37 Well, the CAT's out of the BAG, anyhow. 23:36:25 I guess ineiros can always go to the whitelist-based approach for server administratamation. 23:36:34 Incidentally, "Bukkit will be superseding hMod. Once Bukkit is ready, hMod will no longer be updated." 23:36:48 fizzie: Bukkit. 23:36:53 "I no longer have an interest in Minecraft, so this change is for the best." 23:37:25 fizzie: Oh, dramahe. 23:37:27 MWAHAHAHA NOW I KNOW YOUR SERVER 23:37:37 oerjan: but... you have Norw Privilege. 23:37:39 until i forget again 23:37:55 fizzie: hey0 seems to be rather ... fed up with minecrafters 23:37:59 Minecraft scene is so lively; people get into the "no longer have an interest" phase already, and the game has just barely reached (official) "beta". 23:38:56 fizzie: I think it's code for "I hate you motherfuckers". 23:39:06 fizzie: He stopped reading and posting to the hMod thread on minecraftforums, after all. 23:39:10 (Ages ago.) 23:40:14 Bukkit project seems to be at least more enterprisey, which is always a good thing. 23:40:17 fizzie: Update: oklopol has somehow managed to get to Wonders of the World by accident. 23:40:25 fizzie: He started west of the Cube. 23:40:29 fizzie: Then tried to get back. 23:40:35 Apparently this meant he ended up in the far north. 23:40:37 They have buzzwordy paragraph headings and all in the description. 23:42:07 "performance, ease-of-use, extreme customisability and better communication between the Team and, you, our users" "unique perspective and advantage" "integrated plugin management system" "philosophy of caring for our community and our users" ... 23:42:52 And, well, oklopol's always been a real go-getter, I'm not surprised he got all the way to the North. 23:43:37 fizzie: BY ACCIDENT. 23:43:43 fizzie: He must have walked around the cube in a gigantic circle. 23:49:45 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[food]. 23:49:58 oerjan: please tell me you actually play mc 23:52:05 That sounds hilariously unlikely. 23:52:49 it'd be great though 23:52:58 my brain would be permanently confused 23:53:13 Sure, and after all oko does too, and *his* nick starts with an o also. 23:53:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:53:49 whoa 23:54:54 hmm, oerjan and oklopol start with the same letter? 23:54:58 an ø is not an o! 23:55:14 But an o is an o. 23:55:26 ais523: do YOU play minecraft 23:55:29 gah, don't make me URLencode those os to see if they're both the same 23:55:31 elliott: no 23:55:41 don't want to pay for it, and don't want to pirate it either 23:55:46 And 0["oerjan"] == 'o'. 23:55:57 They were the same. 23:56:20 ais523: also want time left in day to do things? :P 23:56:47 elliott: ? 23:56:56 ais523: minecraft eats up all free time. 23:57:00 ah 23:57:03 like WoW, but actually fun 23:57:06 I have other things to eat up my free time 23:57:17 which are also actually fun, but not /that/ similar to WoW 23:57:30 I wrote a new Enigma level this morning, for instance, and spent over 4 hours solving it 23:57:33 as I was thinking about it the wrong way 23:59:07 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:59:42 -!- augur[food] has changed nick to augur. 2011-01-06: 00:00:50 oklopol: down? 00:00:59 i guess 00:01:04 did you get my msg 00:01:09 i'm in ineiros' hole 00:01:13 noticed its entrance 00:01:16 oklopol: WHY DID YOU GO IN THERE AGAIN 00:01:19 oklopol: climb up the stairs 00:01:22 use F3 to get to -200 00:01:27 then go to 1000 00:01:29 in the other coord 00:01:32 back up 00:01:33 well i figured it's faster to go from there than walk to spawn 00:01:41 it is 00:01:44 but falling in it does not help 00:01:46 well, that's why i went there 00:01:48 nono 00:01:56 i was walking on the tracks 00:01:56 what 00:02:02 and noticed the entrance to ineiros' hole 00:02:03 ohh right 00:02:06 stairs then 00:02:24 it's painfully obvious 00:02:26 to notice 00:10:24 oklopol: be there in a second 00:15:07 Learn you a Haskell is amazing 00:22:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:22:14 fizzie: Can you please give oklopol a lesson in basic navigation. He is worse at it than me. 00:22:50 fizzie: Or at least, I don't believe I could be within short-(or-maybe-normal)-viewing-range of the cube, go into the sea right next to it, claim to see nothing, and then become completely out of sight for someone on far 30 seconds later. 00:22:54 no i'm not 00:23:08 oklopol: yes you are 00:23:15 and i'm terrible at navigation 00:24:56 no, i am not 00:26:09 I'm not the guy to ask, since I'd lose my own head without having it shown on a mcmap window. 00:27:25 oklopol: is it down again. 00:27:30 i think so 00:27:48 no more 00:42:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:58:16 oklopol: is it down again? 00:58:31 variable: 'Tis. 00:58:45 dunno dunno 00:58:50 i think so 01:18:34 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:21:27 -!- quintopia has joined. 01:25:53 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:26:55 night → 01:29:43 wait 01:30:11 elliott, is it possible to change mcmap from using // to something else? I was going to try out this hmod plugin on my local test server: http://forum.hey0.net/showthread.php?tid=94 01:30:15 and it uses // 01:30:16 it seems 01:30:36 Perfectly possible but I like // and I'm not changing it. Grep the source or convince fizzie. :p 01:30:54 elliott, right, I assume it is just one place to change it? Some define or such 01:31:12 elliott, if not I could make a patch that makes it just a define to change it. Would you accept that? 01:31:23 i wouldn't, but fizzie might. i certainly wouldn't like it if the usage messages 01:31:26 got a hideous define in them 01:31:41 Code/mcmap/main.c: && p->bytes[3] == '/' && p->bytes[4] == '/') 01:31:41 Code/mcmap/world.c:if (t >= 3 && p[0] == '/' && p[1] == '/') 01:31:41 elliott, well what about a command line option then 01:31:44 those are the two places to change. 01:31:50 making that a strcmp would be irritating. 01:32:17 elliott, wouldn't need to be strcmp. The first char would always be /. It would just be a case of changing the second char 01:32:32 but what if I wanted my prefix to be "^å"? 01:32:34 elliott, and I agree that // is a good default. 01:32:53 elliott, then you could patch the source. / is very commandy after all :) 01:33:08 Vorpal: if it was just a define to change the second char, and you left the usage messages saying //foo no matter what to simplify the code, sure, i'd apply it 01:33:24 elliott, the messages, aren't they just strings 01:33:27 have you got any spare torches? ph has ours in his inventory i think and we need to torch sand. 01:33:30 Vorpal: yes. 01:33:30 hm wait you would need to stringify 01:33:34 that would be annoying 01:33:40 even if you did 01:33:41 #define char / 01:33:42 fuck C 01:33:49 yeah 01:33:51 elliott, sounds like a bad idea ;P 01:34:00 Vorpal: got any spare torches? 01:34:07 any #define char sounds bad 01:34:10 elliott, define spare 01:34:16 Vorpal: to use for torching. 01:34:20 oh i already asked that 01:34:30 you can have them back when ph gives us our torches back. 01:34:51 elliott, well no, I carry the raw resources around. I don't carry more than a handful of actual torches 01:35:00 but I can't login atm. elliott you can have them tomorrow 01:35:11 Vorpal: right, well, it's kind of a pressing need. 01:35:13 fizzie? 01:35:13 elliott, anyway, surely you found a shitload of coal by now? 01:35:22 Vorpal: uh why i've been working on the cube 01:35:26 why would we find coal 01:35:32 elliott, when digging below it? 01:35:45 Vorpal: tnt. 01:35:50 excavation is on hold until tnt kit anyway 01:35:54 Ecological practices would eliminate your need for coal! 01:35:57 >.> 01:35:58 elliott, hm 01:36:10 Sgeo_: got a better way to remove long columns of gravel/sand? 01:36:27 elliott, but this makes no sense. those are reused 01:36:35 Vorpal: ph has them in his inventory, as i said. 01:36:40 why can't you log in now 01:36:43 elliott, tell him to hand it back? 01:36:48 he's offline 01:36:49 duh 01:36:51 elliott, I get route not found :P 01:36:59 elliott, my internet *is* screwed up 01:37:02 have you tried in the last hour 01:37:09 elliott, I tried after you asked me 01:37:12 elliott, how do you use coal to do that? 01:37:14 just above 01:37:17 elliott, like 2 minutes ago 01:37:21 Sgeo_: you use torches. 01:37:48 elliott, anyway don't you have a stack of coal and a stack of logs in your inventory? 01:37:53 Vorpal: no. 01:38:21 * Vorpal decides to use /7 for mcmap 01:38:33 elliott, how? 01:39:02 "**Torches can be placed on the block if fast graphics is on. Switching to fast graphics, placing the torch and then switching back to fancy will not remove the torch. 01:39:02 " 01:39:04 WTF 01:39:30 Sgeo_, it can be placed on leaves in both now I think 01:39:36 Sgeo_, that bit should be updated 01:39:47 Why was there ever a difference? 01:39:52 Notch quality coding/ 01:39:56 ? 01:39:57 Sgeo_, handled as glass 01:40:02 probably 01:40:14 Sgeo_: buy the fucking game and come do our drudge work for us 01:41:02 -!- quintopia has joined. 01:46:04 elliott, I first parsed that as "fucking-game" 01:46:21 Vorpal's turning into me! 01:46:26 "do all the fucking for us, we'll handle the interesting stuff" 01:47:02 elliott, i didn't get that far before backtracking though :P 01:48:08 oklopol: lol 01:49:13 oklopol: back up 01:58:10 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:58:21 can one of my female buddies come on the server 02:00:54 oklopol, ask ineiros? 02:01:06 that's who i'm asking mainly 02:02:30 Be prepared to wait a while for the answer, also. 02:03:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 02:36:41 fizzie, there? 02:37:01 fizzie: stopped playing already 02:50:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:11:43 PHRASE O' THE DAY: "Spices is arsenic, dude!" 03:14:06 THE WIN 03:14:09 GOD, THE WIN 03:15:38 ...is there some reference i'm not getting :D 03:17:16 oerjan: No, it's just freaking hilarious and winsome. 03:22:35 It is a reference, but it's way too "in-joke" to just me and some people in PDX :P 03:24:05 "PDX can refer to Portland, Oregon" 03:24:31 And does! 03:24:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls Gregor is from there but swats him for the obscure acronym nevertheless -----### 03:24:57 It's not an acronym, it's an international airport code :P 03:25:14 same shit 03:26:37 oerjan: But it doesn't expand to anything. 03:26:55 It's just a pointer to the airport in Portland, Oregon. 03:26:56 hmph 03:27:01 night → 03:27:02 Gregor, and other people who've seen your Facebook statuses? 03:27:13 Gregor: Even without the in-joke-ness, it's pretty winsome. So. 03:27:17 It's not an acronym, it's an international airport code :P <-- no? 03:27:26 Gregor, the international ones are 4-letters 03:27:29 not 3-letters 03:28:50 Vorpal: No. 03:28:54 Vorpal, nope 03:28:56 they are all 3 03:29:01 Vorpal: There's multiple airport codes, and multiple international airport codes. 03:29:08 pikhq, ICAO 03:29:19 pikhq, it is the widely used one 03:29:23 * Sgeo_ wants to play Minecraft multiplayer NAO 03:29:25 :( 03:29:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:29:27 Vorpal: IATA is also an international airport code that is widely used. 03:29:40 Vorpal: And Portland has PDX. 03:29:51 pikhq, "Most countries use ICAO codes, not IATA codes, in their official aeronautical publications." 03:29:53 from wikipedia 03:30:16 The US, to be contrary, uses its own. 03:30:29 pikhq, thus I forgotten about IATA because you never see it used widely 03:30:32 pikhq, typical of us :-} 03:30:56 Most of the time, but not always, it's identical to the IATA code, but the FAA code is completely distinct. 03:31:55 pikhq, ICAO is way way more common than IATA 03:32:57 Except in the US, where FAA which is usually identical to IATA is more common. 03:33:03 Because we hate you. 03:33:04 :D 03:33:16 pikhq, not for international flights though :P 03:33:42 I don't remember the flight codes used on my last international flight, so I can't say. 03:34:02 pikhq, I meant for navigation and so on. I don't care about luggage :P 03:34:38 Well, for navigation... English is the used language. Because we hate you. :P 03:34:55 pikhq, well it is in many fields 03:35:06 OUR HATRED IS VAST! 03:35:21 pikhq, ta det språk som jag använde nyss till exempel. 03:35:31 engelska igen 03:35:37 pikhq, och så vidare! 03:35:55 その言語がとても変だ。 03:35:55 (try google translate, it will probably be hilarious) 03:36:00 http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ewr1a/so_i_have_a_new_way_to_play_minecraft/c1bkh2k 03:36:01 英語だけ！ 03:36:05 pikhq, touche 03:36:44 Take the language that I used recently for example. English again. And so on! 03:36:59 That is astoundingly close to being comprehensible. 03:37:28 I bet machine translation between Germanic languages is easier than the general case. 03:38:14 http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ewr1a/so_i_have_a_new_way_to_play_minecraft/c1bkh2k <-- tried that on smaller scale 03:38:23 pikhq, not necc. using google's algorithms 03:38:33 Sgeo_, as in, a few minutes in nether and then 4-5 hours to trek home 03:38:42 pikhq, for most language parsing based translators you would be right 03:38:54 Vorpal, 4-5 HOURS? 03:38:56 but Google does not parse the language in order to translae 03:38:57 o.O 03:39:00 Take the language that I used recently for example. English again. And so on! <-- quite indeed 03:39:05 pikhq, it made perfect sense 03:39:20 variable: Presumably because even just naively "translating" the words verbatim would get you in the ballpark. 03:39:41 Sgeo_, yes. There was a huge lake in the way and some pretty sights. And the terrain was very uneven. 03:39:48 pikhq, I read a few whitepapers on how google does translation 03:39:54 Sgeo_, I could probably have managed 1-2 hours if I had rushed 03:40:03 Ah, yeah, Google's is statistical based on its crawling, isn't it? 03:40:08 pikhq, yes 03:40:26 Hmm. 03:40:28 they take "known good" translations (such as wikipedia) 03:41:03 and use some very interesting models to figure out which _phrases_ translate roughly to other phrases 03:41:08 and use those 03:41:18 ie: google does NOT know which words are nouns and which verbs 03:41:53 And that's why you get hilarious translations from it sometimes. 03:42:00 IIRC something like Venice → New York. 03:42:34 pikhq, one of the funniest things to do is to translate from Eng -> French -> Eng -> French -> Eng ... 03:42:48 variable, leads to curios results sometimes. Such as "the official denied any knowledge of" turning into "the official denied not knowing anything about" (approx) once when I translated from Norwegian to Swedish. 03:43:25 variable, and that was not iterative 03:43:59 Vorpal, you can "correct" the translations and over time Google will learn the new phrases 03:44:10 pikhq, other known ones: inch -> cm. TT -> AP (TT is a Swedish news agency, AP is a completely different one) 03:44:31 oh right: also km -> mile 03:44:35 variable, yep 03:44:46 because google doesn't know what it is translating 03:45:00 variable, now I just hope they don't do sv:mil -> en:mile. Because a Swedish mile is 10 km 03:45:02 it only knows that the two phrases occur at the right places in multiple documents 03:45:27 which is even more off than km 03:45:30 Vorpal: That probably depends on time period. 03:45:43 pikhq, eh? what does? 03:45:52 pikhq, oh, length of mile 03:45:56 pikhq, I meant modern mile 03:46:11 pikhq, as you might say "it is 10 mile to that city" or such 03:46:16 `translatefromto no sv Tjenestemannen benektet ethvert kjennskap til 03:46:31 oerjan, hackego not here 03:46:36 Hmm. Actually, the traditional Swedish mil unit was actually close to 10 km. 03:46:38 darnit 03:46:50 pikhq, possibly. I'm no history expert. 03:46:52 anyone here speak Norwegian ? 03:46:58 variable, yes oerjan 03:47:00 According to Wikipedia, that is. 03:47:15 variable: Yeah, Ørjan. 03:47:17 pikhq, but a modern Swedish mil is 10 km 03:47:26 pikhq, oooh perfect 03:47:31 Vorpal: Instead of 10,688 m. 03:47:36 pikhq, hah 03:47:43 variable: that was just attempting to reconstruct Vorpal's example 03:47:44 (11,295 m in Norway) 03:47:46 oerjan, how do you pronounce ø ? 03:47:46 pikhq, there were different mil iirc 03:47:57 pikhq, like, for different purposes 03:48:10 That was the, ah, "land mile" or "long mile". 03:48:22 pikhq, travel by coach-mil I think? 03:48:28 pikhq, vs. a few other land ones 03:48:30 oerjan, if you can give me a good recording to listen to that would be awesome! 03:48:32 Vorpal: I bet you had stuff like the nautical mile as well, and of course the statue mile. 03:48:36 Statute, I mean. 03:48:42 pikhq, statue, could be it 03:48:46 also - anyone here speak Persian ? 03:48:49 variable: low frontal rounded. also i have no microphone. 03:49:18 or possibly mid frontal rounded, somewhere around there 03:49:18 oerjan, don't you pronounce it like ö? 03:49:18 The statute mile being, of course, 1,609.344 m. 03:49:26 (because eff you) 03:49:32 pikhq, hah 03:49:46 pikhq, what was the point of statue mile? 03:49:59 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11847921/Images/Games/Minecraft/screenshots/Heatsink.jpg why isn't the water flowing? 03:50:05 Vorpal: pretty close yes, i'm sure there is _some_ difference... 03:50:11 Vorpal: Defined by Act of Parliament! 03:50:25 pikhq, yes but why 03:50:50 oerjan, ok cool 03:50:50 Sgeo_, proably it flows down due to hole? 03:50:56 To define a standard system of measurements across Her Majesty's Realm. 03:50:59 Sgeo_, check wiki for rules on water 03:51:49 Sgeo_, nice building though 03:51:59 Sgeo_, and it is flowing. Right down 03:52:49 Vorpal, I saw you the first time 03:53:20 Sgeo_, ? 03:53:32 You didn't need to repeat yourself 03:53:37 The US, to be contrary, also has the survey foot. 03:53:37 I didn't 03:53:40 And related units. 03:53:55 Which are *almost* identical. 03:54:55 God, I hate the US's units. 03:55:04 pikhq, me too 03:55:12 { and I'm from the US } 03:55:18 variable: As am I. 03:55:30 pikhq, wherefrom? 03:55:39 Sgeo_, relevant page is http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Fluids 03:55:46 Near Colorado Springs, CO. 03:56:02 pikhq, I'm from the center of the world: New York :-} 03:56:12 Oh, sure, be near population. :P 03:56:59 Well. I suppose I'm near population. One of the few regions of population density in, oh, the surrounding few-hundred-kilometer radius. 03:58:09 My dad's claiming that with my study habits, I would not have survived at a decent college, and it's the post-graduate college that matters anyway 03:58:27 Sgeo_, grad school matters the most 03:58:39 Sgeo_, curious - which uni are you in? 03:58:43 Seriously, the nearest place of notable population going west is a 920 kilometer drive... 03:58:49 SUNY Farmingdale 03:59:00 Sgeo_, I'm in SUNY Binghamton :-) 03:59:00 Where the professors are idiots, the students are idiots 03:59:05 Erm, east. 03:59:26 West, it's... 967 km. 03:59:36 Sgeo_, you could probably transfer around the SUNYs fairly easily 03:59:40 pikhq, wow. 96 mil 03:59:43 pikhq, that's long 03:59:56 Vorpal: The US is freaking huge, and the west is sparsely populated. 04:00:05 variable, taking Computer Programming/Information Systems, need to work out if it's viable to do CS at Stony Brook for post-grad 04:00:33 pikhq, it is like 200 km to Stockholm from here... And I consider that far. Well not as far as going to north Sweden. 04:00:46 Vorpal: Look at a map of the US on Google Maps. Realise that that's about the size of Europe. 04:00:57 pikhq, very true 04:01:43 For me to go to the capital of the US would be a 28 hour trip driving straight... 04:01:55 2,663 km. 04:02:24 pikhq, take the sleeper train. Oh wait. 04:02:53 pikhq, I'm in the real capital of the US..... if I wanted to go to the political capital on the other hand..... 04:03:10 variable: You could actually take a train there. 04:03:22 * Sgeo_ suddenly wants to build a huge automatic elevator 04:03:31 pikhq, yes, I'm aware. I was joking about NY being the captial 04:03:42 Including automatic rests for breathing as needed 04:04:05 variable: Well, it is the *largest* city in the US. 04:04:38 Sgeo_, see pm again 04:05:01 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 04:06:05 Sgeo_, you mean boatlevator? 04:06:14 Vorpal, there are other kinds? 04:06:26 Sgeo_, no breathing rests required. Even when going from bottom to top of map 04:06:30 Sgeo_, it is too fast for that 04:06:36 Huh 04:06:58 Awwww, I wanted to build breathing rests 04:07:01 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:07:03 Sgeo_, you could try out the one I have at my place on the server. When you buy the game and ineiros let you on 04:07:05 Remove the ceiling! 04:07:10 Sgeo_, it goes nearly to the top 04:07:28 and it is automated 04:07:31 (it's a loop) 04:07:42 I think it is alt 4 -> alt 110 or something like that 04:09:51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pDe7CKGgWA&feature=related actually says that it's the need to collect resources that makes MC interesting 04:09:52 Huh 04:11:07 Person doesn't know how to make scaffolds 04:12:42 o.O 04:13:01 Well, actually, I guess that works 04:13:01 There's a customary US fluid ounce and a food nutrition labelling US fluid ounce. 04:13:07 Sgeo_, boat loop is simple 04:13:11 Probably better, too. Easy to remove 04:13:21 -!- azaq231 has joined. 04:13:29 Vorpal, I'm talking about the method this person is using to get back up when he fell 04:13:30 The customary once is *defined as* 29.5735295625 mL. The labelling one is 30 mL. 04:13:32 Sgeo_, it you come on the server tomorrow I can show you 04:13:47 3:13 04:13:48 s/once/ounce/ 04:13:56 Vorpal, no chance I'll get MC by tomorrow 04:15:33 Sgeo_, in my method that is no issue. You dig two spiral staircases down. one 2x2, one 2x3. Separated by 5 blocks. then connect them at the bottom . Close up top of 2x3. Place water along the far edge. Fix bottom end of loop (this is hardest). Remove stairs in the holes, starting from top. Finally Open up top of 2x3 so water can flow down as well 04:17:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:22:02 It will be possible to use redstone to have music blocks play, right?/ 04:22:48 Sgeo_, as far as I heard yes 04:23:18 Sgeo_, anyway I prefer a larger loop variant 04:23:27 hm? 04:23:30 Sgeo_, more reliable, more time to get out and in of 04:24:21 Sgeo_, besides in total it needs 2x5 digging, not 2x9. Though the 2x5 is spread out into two separate holes with some distance in between 04:29:30 No elevators on the Reddit servers 04:29:34 (Water is banned) 04:29:43 Hmm 04:30:01 What happens if you use lava (not banned) and accidentally start a forest fire? 04:32:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:38:22 Is the current vocab system the final system that will be in Factor 1.0? 04:38:22 yes 04:38:29 I don't know why I bothered to ask 04:38:40 Hey, shutup shat up! 04:39:09 Ok, "shat" is almost certainly not .. does "shut" as a past tense work? 04:40:54 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shut 04:41:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:44:04 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 04:57:01 a programming language with *portals*... that would be interesting 04:57:54 Mathnerd314, oooooooooshowme 04:58:12 * Sgeo falls in love with a possibly not yet existent language 04:58:15 >.> 04:58:56 yeah, it's nonexistent so far 05:00:40 might be useful for distributed programming 05:00:49 :p 05:04:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:08:08 curses, there's already a portal programming language: http://www.google.com/search?tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&q=editions%3Aeqevfg0_XtQC 05:09:14 maybe I should call it "Portal 2" 05:13:34 * Sgeo falls in love with PORTAL 05:14:43 Hmm 05:14:52 Why haven't I heard of PORTAL before? 05:31:08 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:37:02 because it's an esoteric research language that nobody uses? 05:39:04 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:45:35 Mathnerd314: I do believe this is #esoteric. 05:45:44 Esoteric languages are sort of our thing. 05:49:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:14:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:16:24 * oerjan chuckles at r/circlejerk's latest antics 06:16:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:17:45 http://www.reddit.com/r/circlejerk/comments/ewmac/for_every_500_upvotes_this_submission_gets_i_will/ 06:17:52 AFAICT, PORTAL was meant to be a practical language 06:21:19 http://www.theonion.com/articles/who-was-i-and-why-was-i-important-again,18715/?utm_souce=popbox this is what elliott wants me to be 06:25:04 I still love that the US's national anthem is originally a drinking song. 06:28:43 Mythbusters sez: Sneeze into your elbow. 06:30:04 pikhq says: next performance of the US national anthem, be sure to sing "To Anacreon in Heav'n, where he sat in full glee" ... 06:50:20 I think I should just sneeze on the nearest hatted person 07:02:03 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:10:36 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:22:54 -!- j-invariant has joined. 07:36:18 * Sgeo suddenly realizes the obvious reason that shutup wasn't talking 07:36:36 Shut up about shutup! 07:36:39 ^^not real 07:36:44 which was? 07:36:54 oerjan, elliott not being online to run the bot 07:37:06 ah. 07:37:09 And updog's presense here disproves my theory 07:37:09 What's updog? 07:37:24 Unless... shutup gets its cues from elliott's client 07:37:34 hm i thought it could be updog too... 07:37:34 What's updog? 07:37:39 Factor 07:37:47 shutup is, in fact, awake 07:38:04 you got a response? 07:38:06 Yeah 07:38:16 Don't know why I didn't get a response earlier 07:38:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 07:38:29 Is the current vocab system the final system that will be in Factor 1.0? 07:38:35 hm 07:38:43 Factor 1.0? 07:38:43 07:38:53 Factor 07:38:56 AW 07:38:58 Smalltalk 07:39:05 No responses 07:39:16 Active Worlds 07:39:20 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 07:39:36 * Sgeo glares at the kicked updog menacingly 07:39:44 Well, at least we know that oerjan kicks dogs 07:40:32 So yeah, updog feeds shutup 07:44:22 So now you can speak freely! 07:44:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 07:46:02 Got yet another Spam IM with a suspicious message 07:46:08 This time, I plan on clicking 07:46:11 [in a VM] 07:46:18 * Sgeo downloads TinyCore 07:51:14 Now, as soon as I figure out how to install a browser on this thing 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:28 * Sgeo gets it working 08:02:50 It's a thing claiming to give a free Blackberry Torch 08:13:49 Started lagging out :/ 08:14:01 Also started fearing that maybe Freenode decided I was a spammer or somesuch 08:14:09 what do you expect to get from it? 08:14:40 j-invariant, was expecting malware or ... what do those fake contest things DO, exactly? 08:15:02 I don't really know either 08:21:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:21:32 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:52:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specker_sequence 09:39:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 10:09:36 -!- j-invariant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:38:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:38:21 -!- augur has joined. 11:45:53 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:58:15 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:05:29 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:05:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:10:01 It's distressing that I couldn't figure out how to change the resolution in SLAX 12:10:02 :/ 12:10:27 Your FACE is distressing. 12:10:36 As is your blood furry costume. 12:12:42 http://tinymelinux.com/doku.php/download#bittorrent-recommended 12:12:50 I don't see a torrent on that page 12:12:52 WTF 12:17:38 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:19:34 VirtualBox is beginning to piss me off 12:39:27 SimplyMEPIS has THREE seeders 12:39:27 at least it's not doing anything unexpected 12:39:30 That's depressing 12:39:46 Even f****n JOLICLOUD has more 12:39:48 what's simplymepis? (i can't use the web right now) 12:39:55 Linux distro 12:40:06 why is it relevant? 12:40:19 Because I'm exploring Linux distros right now 12:40:43 Or.. did you mean for this channel? 12:40:50 i meant for this conversation 12:40:55 what have you found to be noteworthy so far? 12:41:14 The download hasn't finished yet 12:41:32 but you may have tried other linuces 12:41:43 SLAX is still using KDE 3.something 12:42:00 Saw something in the forums suggesting that it doesn't have latest ntfs-3g or somesuch 12:42:11 ok 12:42:17 anything else? 12:42:20 TinyCore boots up REALLY FRIGGEN FAST 12:42:31 i mean as far as *interesting* things, not "things that ubuntu does easily" 12:42:33 oh ok 12:42:33 cool 12:42:50 keep goin 12:42:51 :) 12:44:10 I've decided that my honeymoon with VirtualBox is over. 12:44:14 what other distros have you tried? 12:44:17 I'm about to download VMWare Server 12:44:46 Recently, or in the past? 12:44:53 recently 12:45:23 Um, just TinyCore and SLAX 12:45:27 to me it feels like most distros try and fail at copying several of the big ones 12:45:33 slackware, gentoo, debian/ubuntu 12:45:37 redhat 12:50:31 Dear VMWare: I live in Schenectady. Love, Sgeo. 12:50:48 [Note: I do not live in Schenectady] 12:51:30 you got em so tricked 13:06:13 They do seem to check that the city you put in is real 13:06:28 I didn't test whether or not it requires the matching ZIP code 13:06:43 I put in 12345, which is for General Electric in Schnectady 13:08:25 Sgeo, why on earth would you try this many distros? 13:08:49 To find one I like! 13:09:27 What don't you like about every major one? 13:09:52 * Sgeo misparsed that at first 13:10:26 Relatively stupid stuff, mostly 13:11:01 Only one I ever HATED that I can remember is Linux XP 13:11:14 Oh, "major" 13:16:31 Why does VMWare Server feel a need to download a Java Runtime Environment? 13:16:45 VirtualBox maybe I'd understand 13:17:03 * Sgeo wants to shoot Su.. oh wait, Oracle did that and is now being evil 13:34:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:40:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:43:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:43:57 So: VMWare Server now makes your computer into a server, and the UI is a webpage 13:44:02 Why didn't I see this coming? 13:47:52 Sgeo, because visibility inside your blood fursuit is poor. 13:48:18 * Phantom_Hoover restarts XChat to get the bloody thing to register my default nick changes. 13:48:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:48:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:49:59 I'm pretty sure pikhq warned me about this, but I ignored him because I thought he was talking about crappy internal architecture 13:52:37 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:04:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:05:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:17:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:24:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:24:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 14:24:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:24:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:30:23 -!- Behold has joined. 14:32:24 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:33:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:35:37 * Sgeo lols at the existence of ipv6-literal.net 14:45:14 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:55:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:59:23 fizzie, there? 15:00:06 fizzie, a question about mcmap: does water really block tp? Because when you ended up sub-surface in an unloaded chunk tp out of there would be /very/ useful 15:01:45 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:03:43 No, it doesn't. 15:03:52 I'll fix that thing at some point. 15:03:54 -!- Behold has joined. 15:04:39 how's that win version coming 15:05:22 would be nice to get home, i managed to convince myself i had a way to look at coordinates as much as i like, and decided to take a random walk 15:05:41 oklopol, you can use f3 to see coords 15:05:41 then turns out once i started using my great idea, i had a constant amount of look-ups :D 15:05:45 no you can't 15:05:50 oklopol, what? 15:05:51 or you can, 5 times in a game 15:06:02 oklopol, not you confused me 15:06:05 now* 15:06:14 a red square goes on top of the numbers 15:06:24 oklopol, ah yes, I heard that was a problem on smaller screens 15:06:25 You just have a too small window. 15:06:26 grows 15:06:39 oklopol, the graph thingy I assume? 15:06:43 too small resolution more like 15:07:01 oklopol, it is fine with a maximised window on my 24" desktop monitor ;) 15:07:03 Anyhows, I don't know about the win binary, did it not work? 15:07:15 as i said, this is a very old crt 15:07:27 oh i didn't know it existed yet 15:07:41 It is probably very buggy. 15:08:04 http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-win.zip if I remember right. 15:08:19 The no-map mode might work if you just need a //goto. 15:08:46 For me it crashed on //goto, but it looked like it actually teleported first, so it might sorta-work. 15:08:47 all i want is to look at coordinates 15:08:51 Oh. 15:09:05 Well, I don't think that works in nomap mode yet. 15:09:20 I can fixize that after I get home. 15:09:41 fizzie, a feature request would be to turn the second letter of the command prefix into a #define or command line option. I was trying out a hmod plugin on my local test server that uses // as prefix. I patched it locally but it seems rather hackish. And // is a good default for most people. 15:09:49 i have to constantly look up to know where north is, because i can't see any landmarks with tiny, and it's very hard to keep track locally because whenever i move my mouse, one second later, all that is collected into a random turn 15:10:03 oklopol, //compass ? 15:10:04 err 15:10:08 /compass 15:10:09 rather 15:10:15 There is a /compass command, right. 15:10:15 hmod provides it 15:10:18 (constantly look up and switch to normal) 15:10:23 oh cool 15:10:26 It tells you which way you are looking at. 15:10:37 Doesn't tell you where you are, though. 15:11:29 oklopol, helping on the drainage operation? 15:11:53 maybe when i randomly find my way back, and no, i don't want your help and annoying comments 15:12:01 Phantom_Hoover, idea: get worldedit hmod plugin. stand next to water, use //drain 128 15:12:27 Vorpal, hmm. I think elliott might object to that. 15:12:44 It's too close to using a map editor. 15:12:58 Phantom_Hoover, worldedit *is* an in-game map editor 15:13:00 btw there was a random boat in the water, i decided to steal it since they are practically free 15:13:14 that was a few blocks south 15:13:17 Vorpal, OK, so he's not going to accept that/ 15:13:20 oklopol, in the water where btw? 15:13:22 hard to assess 15:13:24 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:13:31 south from cube 15:13:44 Phantom_Hoover, it works better than the free standing ones I tried. 15:13:53 Vorpal, that is not the point. 15:14:08 also, i should probably continue playing, i just randomly bumped into one of your bridges 15:14:11 Phantom_Hoover, indeed, I didn't claim it was. Was just a general statement. 15:14:12 The point of this is to build it with legitimate-but-for-kits methods. 15:14:14 i love this game 15:14:22 hours of walking in the dark and suddenly: bridge. 15:14:27 oklopol, bridges hm. Must be near spawn? 15:14:33 oklopol, or wait. Very far south? 15:15:02 oklopol, do you have an in-game compass (those always point towards spawn) 15:15:11 gonna try to see if there's something familiar there, being near spawn has been a rather confusing experience, since i've always been following a guy who randomly jumps 30 blocks at a time and calls me a retard 15:15:15 using that and /compass you could tell general direction from spawn 15:15:22 oklopol, if you don't have a compass I can give you one. 15:15:39 Phantom_Hoover, same. But I have to do some RL stuff now. bbs 15:15:46 might be fun i guess, i wish there was an in-game coordinate gadget 15:16:50 Vorpal: i'm not very far south anymore, see i tried to get back by going north, but then i just ended up playing with the boat till i got lost 15:17:02 because it was so much fun 15:17:07 oklopol, hm 15:17:40 i've always just swim, but when i suddenly found a boat, was hard not to try it 15:17:41 oklopol, well there is f3 ;P 15:17:42 *i 15:18:02 oklopol, they are quite hard to control when laggy 15:18:05 well this is the biggest resolution i've got, and the crt is already blurring things a lot 15:18:09 oklopol, they work a lot better in single player thus 15:18:23 well i have both lag and very low fps 15:18:57 my internet is crappy, i have a very old crt, and my computer is a tiny little laptop not exactly meant for gaming, can't handle most flash games 15:19:46 oklopol, you have a CRT laptop? 15:20:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:26:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:30:10 fizzie, "bus error" when trying to connect sometimes, randomly pretty much. 15:38:29 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 15:54:43 -!- j-invariant has joined. 16:02:39 oklopol, ah yes, I heard that was a problem on smaller screens 16:02:42 No it isn't. 16:03:01 It's a measure of CPU load. 16:03:05 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:04:14 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:08:10 Phantom_Hoover, well on a large screen it never goes on top of the coords. even when the CPU is bogged down by mc 16:11:17 In my vertically oriented window it does not seem to be a problem either. 16:11:33 Does it scale the text too or just the GUI elements? 16:11:59 Vorpal, are you disconnected? 16:12:06 Phantom_Hoover, I lost connection it seems 16:12:07 -!- azaq23 has quit (Changing host). 16:12:07 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:12:13 or lagging out 16:12:22 Phantom_Hoover, down for you too? 16:12:28 Yes. 16:14:08 I just confused "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai: Across the Eighth Dimension" with Tron 16:14:58 is the new Tron good? 16:15:14 * Sgeo has never seen either Tron or The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai 16:15:23 you have not seen the original Tron? 16:15:48 Correct 16:16:11 ("Is that not so?" "Yes, that is not so.") 16:16:40 WTF, googling for that quote and Pratchett gives nothing 16:16:46 I KNOW I saw it in Thief of Time 16:16:51 it's a good film 16:46:18 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:46:54 ("Is that not so?" "Yes, that is not so.") <-- 1) without quotes the words are probably too generic to give a good result. 2) with quotes a tiny comma difference or such would probably result in not getting the result 16:47:06 I don't remember that quote btw 16:48:35 The Auditors 16:48:45 They were trying to convince... someone.. of something... 16:49:13 Making excuses for why they weren't eating 16:49:20 It was supposedly against their religion 16:49:29 To eat the food that was being offered 16:59:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:07:57 oerjan! 17:08:25 possibly, possibly 17:08:35 i mean hi 17:08:43 oerjan * (oerjan - 1) * (oerjan - 2) .. 17:11:34 the factorial of oerjan 17:12:16 -!- elliott has joined. 17:13:09 elliott, we know all your secrets! 17:13:17 [Ok, just one] 17:13:39 elliott we missed you in mc 17:14:35 "missed"? 17:15:00 yeah, we were all like if only this guy was here 17:15:18 why, what have you done 17:15:57 im considering buying it 17:15:59 19:58:09 My dad's claiming that with my study habits, I would not have survived at a decent college, and it's the post-graduate college that matters anyway 17:16:01 :S 17:16:01 it involved tnt, stupidity, and the destruction of all your dreams 17:16:02 dunno 17:16:04 Sgeo: your dad claims so many things 17:16:58 see we figured it'd be even faster to torch with tnt, because tnt blows up a much bigger area than a torch 17:18:39 ("Is that not so?" "Yes, that is not so.") <-- 1) without quotes the words are probably too generic to give a good result. 2) with quotes a tiny comma difference or such would probably result in not getting the result 17:18:56 i don't think google considers punctuation much even with quotes 17:18:59 hm did updog crash? 17:19:10 elliott, oerjan kicked it 17:19:14 elliott: WE DID AN EXPERIMENT 17:19:16 Meaning I can say Factor all I want! 17:19:20 what? 17:19:37 Factor Active Worlds Smalltalk Newspeak 17:20:03 ok, looks like updog being kicked broke shutup since they run on the same service supervisor 17:20:05 your point? 17:20:08 elliott: it was FOR SCIENCE 17:20:13 your point? 17:20:28 elliott: well that is what you _say_ 17:20:40 elliott, you're still trying to hide shutup being fed by updog? 17:20:42 shutupdog 17:20:45 It's so obvious now 17:20:55 what is ... obvious about putting two words together 17:21:01 oerjan: are you going to continue to be opaque or are you going to tell me what you're talking about? 17:21:23 elliott: it is obvious that shutup had to get sgeo's channel message information through _someone_ in this channel 17:21:24 what 17:21:41 oerjan: you realise that updog is a0 17:21:44 10 line ruby script? 17:21:57 10 line Ruby scripts can't feed other scripts now/ 17:21:58 ? 17:21:59 and since it didn't shut up when _you_ were away, updog was the main suspect 17:22:14 oerjan: http://sprunge.us/dcFS 17:22:33 i lied, it's actually 12 lines. 17:23:25 Prove it. Run shutup without running updog 17:23:45 that would involve editing the service. also, i don't particularly feel like proving anyhting to you 17:24:12 heh 17:24:17 ok, clearly updog isn't _banned_ 17:24:18 you are SO busted 17:24:37 oerjan: if you're just looking for someone to ban there's plenty of other things you could 17:24:40 of course not, poor updog never did anything wrong 17:24:40 elliott, it was an experiment, not ... bannishment 17:25:02 Such as Sgeo 17:25:40 * Sgeo blinks at extraneous ls 17:25:51 Well, just one l is extraneous 17:26:03 and there's one too much t 17:26:17 oklopol, are you willing to help on the Cube or not? 17:26:27 sure, but perhaps not today 17:26:28 or 17:26:29 at least 17:26:31 not right now 17:26:48 i have Important Things irl 17:27:02 -!- updog has joined. 17:27:07 Factor 17:27:10 Huh 17:27:17 Guess shutup isn't awake yet 17:27:21 whoops, what's that, your stupid conspiracy theory isn't true?!! ZOMG 17:27:25 and shutup has been online all this time 17:27:25 well shutup it _there_ 17:27:34 "Idle: 9:48:43" 17:27:48 it broke because shutup is run on the same service to conserve memory on my _256 MiB_ vps, tyvm 17:28:01 Sgeo: you _do_ realize it is trivial for elliott to change anything and even lie about what code he is running if he wishes? 17:28:05 meaning their network connections interact rather oddly 17:28:18 oerjan: are you going to continue being paranoid? 17:28:31 what's this shutup thinm 17:28:35 *g 17:28:36 elliott, the other explanation for how shutup works is... magic? 17:28:41 i got stuck in minecraft mode 17:28:49 oklopol, whenever I say certain things, shutup tells me to shutup 17:28:49 if you don't _mind_, i'd like to restart it so that shutup starts working again 17:28:53 elliott: not really. but the fact that shutup has to get its information from _someone_ in the channel remains. i doubt you have a freenode server running. 17:28:53 but i won't bother if you're going to kick updog 17:28:54 What's updog? 17:29:07 in pm? 17:29:12 oklopol, yes 17:29:21 okay 17:29:43 oerjan: so are you going to ban updog if i restart the instance so that shutup unbreaks? 17:29:44 What's updog? 17:29:56 I think I've said Factor Smalltalk Active Worlds etc. etc. more now that shutup exists... 17:29:57 elliott: that was only for an experiment. there is no point in repeating it. 17:30:22 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:30:34 o.O? 17:30:39 since Sgeo can ignore shutup any time he wants, i see no point in actually intervening. 17:30:41 i'm restarting them, as i said. 17:32:07 -!- updog has joined. 17:32:42 oerjan, did you kick it? 17:32:50 Vorpal: yes 17:33:13 Vorpal, updog was kicked for an experiment to see if shutup would stop reacting to my Newspeak and Active Worlds obsessions 17:33:13 What's updog? 17:33:18 oerjan, because that should leave it connected. Meaning that nonsense about network connections interacting seem even less plausible than if it had been disconnected 17:33:24 shutup now gives notices 17:33:37 Vorpal: I'm really uninterested in conspiracy theories. 17:33:48 elliott, so how does it work then? Just wondering. 17:33:59 Vorpal: well it's not _entirely_ implausible that it caused something in elliott's setup to break ;D 17:33:59 if I told you, what fun would it be for me? 17:34:02 cool minecrafpt works 17:34:17 j-invariant: if you buy it, you can come on our server and do menial work on the cube forever 17:34:23 Sgeo, seriously, did you actually go to a crap college because your dad said so? 17:34:30 hehe well I can try to connect now 17:34:36 j-invariant: if it's a pirated copy it won't work 17:34:42 Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo does everything because his dad said so 17:34:44 no I bought it 17:34:50 I wasn't aware it would be crap, but I pretty much went there because my dad said to 17:34:57 j-invariant: ah. ask ineiros for the address 17:34:58 Sgeo, Christ... 17:35:08 Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo regularly checks with his dad if it's OK to keep breathing. 17:35:21 j-invariant: you neither have Finn privilege or South African privilege so you have to go through normal channels 17:35:22 The worst part is that there's actually an intelligent person in there somewhere, kept down by a barrage of conditioned stupidity. 17:36:31 Vorpal: i can even imagine him being honest about what code updog is running, as long as he has something listening in between :) 17:36:31 What's updog? 17:36:53 although i don't precisely know how to do that myself 17:37:02 oerjan: or maybe -- JUST maybe -- it works in a way you haven't thought of yet 17:37:26 elliott, you said it doesn't read logs on the web... does it use mercurial at all? 17:37:28 elliott: well listening to one of the logs i think would be too resource intensive 17:37:29 I have this ominous feeling that is was a huge mistake to buy this and I will not have any time for anything else :| 17:37:39 Sgeo: no, gregor would know if it did 17:37:40 j-invariant: YUP 17:37:44 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:37:45 oh you've already denied that 17:37:51 j-invariant: welcome to the rest of your life 17:38:43 elliott: i can imagine many ways to set it up, but no plausible ones that don't require an accomplice on the channel 17:38:59 of course it doesn't have to be updog. 17:39:00 What's updog? 17:39:07 i am master of the implausible 17:39:20 but it _is_ suspicious that it stopped when i kicked updog. 17:39:21 What's updog? 17:40:03 Of course, if elliott wanted, he could switch it over to him then remove updog, as a "demonstration" that it wasn't updog 17:40:04 What's updog? 17:40:14 hey, we have lambdabot 17:40:23 Sgeo: yeah 17:40:23 yes, permanently too. 17:40:27 ooh 17:40:29 Sgeo: zomg, you should like, write an essay about that 17:40:33 about misplaced trust! 17:40:58 How can lambdabot be an accomplice? 17:41:14 elliott, I got a 100% on the essay 17:41:25 Sgeo: and now you are applying your learnings to updog 17:41:26 What's updog? 17:41:32 a question for the ages 17:43:05 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:43:27 >updog< Factor 17:43:27 -shutup- Shut up about Factor! 17:43:27 What's updog? 17:43:39 Sgeo: as i said, sharing the same connection 17:43:42 Factor 17:44:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Sgeo_not_really. 17:44:26 ActiveWorlds 17:44:34 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:45:25 elliott, I'd ask you how that even makes sense in any way whatsoever other than updog being the source, but 17:45:26 What's updog? 17:46:01 Seriously.. are you not running a normal OS on that machine, just wrote your own hastily written network stack? 17:46:12 aww I think my computer is too slow to actually run this game 17:46:21 at a decent speed 17:46:32 j-invariant: go into options 17:46:35 rendering distance short or tiny 17:46:37 graphics on fast 17:46:40 (not fancy) 17:46:43 which game? 17:46:47 Minecraft 17:46:47 copumpkin: minecrack. 17:46:51 ah 17:47:07 silly haskell invaders, this is secretly #minecraft 17:47:17 lol 17:47:19 I've noticed 17:47:29 how do you know i don't give him the logs 17:47:38 oklopol: OMG DON'T TELL THEM 17:47:40 with a mirc script 17:47:47 Sgeo: i don't know if lambdabot can be an accomplice but that _is_ why i was browsing the channel member listing ;D 17:48:05 oklopol: what the fuck, man, your big chest is actually full 17:48:38 oklopol, well, given the evidence, there's a LOT pointing to updog currently being the accomplice 17:48:38 What's updog? 17:48:48 A parking lot even 17:48:49 >.> 17:49:23 Sgeo: what 17:49:34 elliott, bad pun 17:50:29 elliott: full of sand? 17:50:35 or full of sand and gravel 17:50:39 oklopol: sand and gravel 17:50:43 i just filled it up to the max 17:50:58 a big box full of multiple things is not a pure box, and is useless 17:51:06 oklopol: i didn't put the gravel there 17:51:07 you should make another box for gravel 17:51:11 silly haskell invaders, this is secretly #minecraft <-- actually it is #would-be-offtopic-if-anyone-ever-was-on-topic but freenode limits the name length so we had to go for something else 17:52:15 elliott, how broken is your custom network stack? 17:52:27 Sgeo: pretty broken. also, it's not a "network stack". 17:53:57 You do realize that you're not convincing anyone, right? 17:54:13 http://i.imgur.com/FuYln.jpg 17:54:17 oklopol, why do you actually want a full big box of sand? 17:54:20 is this built programmatically? 17:54:25 Sgeo: i don't care? 17:54:30 j-invariant: might be, might not 17:54:37 j-invariant: not if it's on multiplayer ofc 17:54:44 j-invariant: i can see someone building that by hand 17:54:49 it's not a "huge" project to do so 17:54:52 Sgeo_not_really: i just do alright? :\ 17:55:04 Also, Falcon 17:55:10 -!- Sgeo_not_really has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 17:55:10 I_O 17:55:32 so anyway 17:55:56 sounds likely that the ellipse has been computed unmanually 17:56:04 yeah 17:58:33 Phantom_Hoover, feel free to test shutup by msg'ing updog 17:58:34 What's updog? 17:59:05 he's not called Sgeo, it would do nothing. 17:59:14 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_. 17:59:18 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo_test. 17:59:23 Factor 17:59:28 Meh, true 17:59:31 -!- Sgeo_test has changed nick to Sgeo. 17:59:40 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_. 17:59:53 Hmm, would he need to be identified to PM? 18:01:49 oklopol: build us a chest for gravel, i have more sand to put in 18:02:07 i'll build you a forest of chests when i get to it 18:02:24 oklopol: er please don't 18:02:32 i'll plant a 256x256 forest and replace log with chests 18:02:46 ...so you can't open any of them 18:02:48 ;D 18:02:51 :D 18:02:57 * Sgeo_ doesn't get it 18:03:30 oklopol: :D 18:03:52 oklopol: "THIS LARGE CHEST IS FULL OF DIAMOND. TOO BAD I PUT BEDROCK ON TOP." 18:04:05 :D 18:04:22 i've never a diamond box .( 18:04:34 is that a one-eyed sad 18:04:41 yes 18:05:16 * Sgeo_ acts pseudooffended 18:06:06 elliott: how's your linux project 18:06:19 cheater99: which 18:06:39 elliott: there was no specific quantifier :-D 18:06:45 cheater99, if elliott's telling the truth, AND updog and shutup are running on it... he's failing miserably 18:06:45 What's updog? 18:06:53 Sgeo_: what 18:06:56 Sgeo_: what 18:07:09 cheater99: kitten or installing ubuntu on this laptop or what 18:07:20 i guess ubuntu on laptop 18:07:40 In order for you to be telling the truth about updog not being shutup's source, shutup must be confusing updog's input with its own 18:07:40 What's updog? 18:07:47 Which is a sign of dementia at the OS level 18:08:00 Sgeo_ is dementia 18:08:46 * Sgeo_ suddenly wants DementedOS 18:09:52 elliott: how is ubuntu laptop coming along? 18:10:09 cheater99: not at all until someone responds to my ubuntuforums post 18:10:19 * Sgeo_ wonders when he'll receive the email from PayPal describing why, exactly, someone who makes $38/year is not eligible for their credit card thing 18:10:21 which seems unlikely, at this point 18:10:32 Sgeo_: just get a debit card 18:10:57 also, isn't it fairly obvious? 18:11:25 Yes, but still. 18:11:39 Sgeo_: so get a debit card? 18:11:54 oh wait i forgot you'd have to ask your father ... because 21 year olds can't get debit cards 18:11:58 forgot, sorry, ignore me 18:12:51 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:12:51 Sgeo_: just send them money with a bank transfer 18:13:48 oklopol: no he'd have to ask his dad 18:13:52 and his dad thinks bank transfers are bad 18:13:55 obviously 18:17:13 fizzie: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=54784 18:17:16 fizzie: lol 18:17:37 fizzie: I have to say, that animation under Usage is something I would love to see in your mcmap. 18:18:08 elliott, .... tbh I told my dad that I was angry and that I was going to go get a debit card... and he said he'll look into it, he's going to Wal-Mart anyway, so he'll get one for me 18:20:10 i don't get you at all 18:21:02 Well, I could easily have an "surface except up to max-height" mode, but I don't have an isometric view at all. 18:21:39 elliott: how would his dad know if he gets a bank account and makes a transfer 18:21:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:22:05 oklopol: well Sgeo_ would ask him of course 18:22:15 fizzie: psht! 18:23:07 fizzie: i'd add it, except I only do _easy_ work 18:23:19 Oh, that's an offline map-browser thing? The word "live" confused me. 18:23:27 oh, it is? A shame. 18:23:38 fizzie: Having said that... an isometric mode would be amazing... albeit slow. 18:23:53 "From the file menu you can select Worlds 1-5 from single-player minecraft on your system or any world folder, including server worlds." 18:24:37 What; M-x new-frame makes the font reset. 18:25:02 fizzie: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/107712/MCMap%20Screenshots/ss5.png Also this would be nice in real-time. : 18:25:03 :p 18:25:42 I'll consider isometricry and/or other prettification things too. And some sort of block-finder, that could be nice too. 18:26:08 you guys take the venture out of adventure 18:26:21 oklopol: :D 18:26:28 oklopol: i don't actually use mcmap's mapping 18:26:34 i just use it for the //goto 18:26:57 well, i understand that, although i'd prefer minecarts that are easier to use 18:27:28 oklopol: are you _sure_ you're right clicking them :D 18:28:06 you push them, then you right click a random number of times, and hope an odd number of clicks is done, then you wait to see something, and you'll know whether you're in the cart or whether the cart has run away 18:28:28 oklopol: you push them, you right click once, and you wait 18:28:28 hope, because every fifth click works 18:28:36 if it fails it's because ineiros is skyping 18:29:15 okay, so maybe minecarts are special like that 18:29:49 but sometimes it takes me a few minutes to get a click to work 18:30:07 I might just prefer preset warp destinations; maybe I'll have ineiros finally add some when he visits. 18:30:18 god i love complaining about this, i'm like an old lady telling everyone how much her hips her 18:30:23 *hurt 18:30:36 hurt hips her? 18:30:50 her hips hurt her 18:31:09 her hurt hips her 18:31:12 anyway previous is corrected 18:31:12 * Sgeo_ is being sill 18:31:14 y 18:31:23 that works too 18:31:25 Her hip hurt herds her. 18:31:47 04:44:10 I've decided that my honeymoon with VirtualBox is over. 18:31:48 oh god 18:31:51 the marriage breaks down already 18:31:53 I'm weeping 18:32:06 i guess all that cheating on Vorpal VirtualBox did just got too much 18:32:29 elliott, err. What? 18:32:59 Vorpal: Sgeo_ broke up with VirtualBox and started a new love affair with VMWare 18:33:07 I assume it's because of all the time VirtualBox is spending with YOU 18:33:21 elliott, gah. vmware is even worse. Though I am looking for a good alternative to virtualbox what with oracle and so on now 18:33:27 Vorpal: vmware SERVER no less 18:33:31 did inva enter server btw? 18:33:35 oklopol: ? 18:33:39 oklopol: who is inva 18:33:40 oh j-invariant 18:33:44 I decided to shoot VMWare Server before I ever touched her 18:33:51 oklopol: i'm telling him to ask ineiros, but you could just tell j-invariant the address 18:33:52 \Sigma^*inva\Sigma^* 18:33:55 you're oklopol so nobody would blame you 18:34:07 elliott, I used that.. back before virtualbox exited (or at least before it was well known). But yeah it is annoying. And isn't modern versions browser based too 18:34:09 :D 18:34:12 (never used modern versions) 18:34:13 tru 18:34:14 Vorpal: yup! 18:34:25 Vorpal, yes. Yes it is. 18:34:27 05:49:59 I'm pretty sure pikhq warned me about this, but I ignored him because I thought he was talking about crappy internal architecture 18:34:31 water blocks toilet paper, yup 18:34:34 erm 18:34:35 07:00:06 fizzie, a question about mcmap: does water really block tp? Because when you ended up sub-surface in an unloaded chunk tp out of there would be /very/ useful 18:34:57 07:05:22 would be nice to get home, i managed to convince myself i had a way to look at coordinates as much as i like, and decided to take a random walk 18:34:59 you have a home now? 18:35:11 07:06:14 a red square goes on top of the numbers 18:35:11 07:06:24 oklopol, ah yes, I heard that was a problem on smaller screens 18:35:12 :D 18:35:13 it isn't the fucking screen size 18:35:14 it's cpu usage 18:35:16 sorry, temporary home 18:35:18 more cpu usage = it blocks the indicator 18:35:20 VMware Server before their *revolting* AJAX UI wasn't bad. 18:35:22 i don't have any place yet 18:35:42 It wasn't the greatest thing ever, but it had an entirely usable and working GTK UI, and it just plain worked. 18:35:49 elliott, actually screen size matters too, this system is bogged down under mc, but the screen is large. 18:35:56 Now, it doesn't fucking work and it HAS ITS OWN COPY OF EVERYTHING 18:36:02 oh well obviously mc uses up all my cpu, so maybe i should just force it to be low while reading coords 18:36:21 oklopol: or just use mcmap and //coords when fizzie makes a working windows binary :p 18:36:25 07:12:01 Phantom_Hoover, idea: get worldedit hmod plugin. stand next to water, use //drain 128 18:36:28 Vorpal: cuboid plugin does that. 18:36:29 oh right 18:36:33 but yeah, no. 18:36:42 "minecraft would be so much better if we didn't have to mine or craft!" 18:36:46 oklopol: Did you try out the win-binary, incidentally? 18:36:49 "or explore" 18:36:51 fizzie: he just wants coords 18:36:58 07:08:19 The no-map mode might work if you just need a //goto. 18:36:58 07:08:46 For me it crashed on //goto, but it looked like it actually teleported first, so it might sorta-work. 18:36:58 07:08:47 all i want is to look at coordinates 18:36:59 07:08:51 Oh. 18:37:00 i have a windows binary, forgot about ti 18:37:01 07:09:05 Well, I don't think that works in nomap mode yet. 18:37:03 07:09:20 I can fixize that after I get home. 18:37:05 TO QUOTE THE LOGS 18:37:07 fizzie: HOME YET 18:37:34 elliott, cuboid is less well written from what I read. Not quite notch quality but buggier definitely. (And worldedit has more features as well.) 18:37:44 oh okay 18:38:02 Vorpal: i only know cuboid from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaigDxHBKbA, which is my favourite video ever 18:38:02 elliott: Well, you do get coords in the mappy mode, but I guess that's less likely to work. Anyway, just came home. 18:38:16 Cute. 18:38:21 Vorpal: so if worldedit can do that then SURE 18:38:22 pikhq: what's cute 18:38:31 Sony claims they'll be "fixing the issues" with the PS3 using a network update. 18:38:52 rofl 18:39:23 pikhq, I should have listened to you 18:39:26 I'm so sorry 18:39:32 pikhq: it can be effective. 18:39:47 Yeah, the only thing that could do anything about this is: adding a new layer of signing onto new games plus a whitelist for all the old games. *On a new revision of hardware.* 18:39:49 pikhq: means that for anyone who hasn't yet homebrew'd the console, the only way to do it is hardware modding 18:40:26 pikhq: i.e., there's three types of machine: updated ones, can't be hacked except by hardware mods; already-hacked ones; and new ones, which are invulnerable 18:40:26 how do you actually play this game? 18:40:27 elliott, can't answer until I watched video. But one think I did was select a huge area (200x200) then expand the selection to bottom of map and replace everything but air with stone. Worked perfectly and as happened so fast it seemed instant. 18:40:29 in an idael situation (for sony) 18:40:30 *ideal 18:40:40 apparently you can build 18:40:44 j-invariant: mine stuff, build a shelter, get armour, find a nice mountain, start a mine 18:40:48 j-invariant: make farms, kill bad things 18:40:51 j-invariant: build interesting stuff 18:40:53 wire it all together 18:40:53 explore 18:40:53 elliott: This, of course, presumes that Sony does it perfectly. 18:40:56 s/think/thing/ 18:41:12 That is, creates new keys and a whitelist, and introduces *no new vulnerabilities*. 18:41:28 oklopol: you should be hideously irresponsible with the server address right now! 18:41:34 Oh, and the new keys would of course have to be in the mask for future CPUs. 18:41:34 or j-invariant could just read the logs i guess :P 18:41:45 and also invalidates the old keys 18:41:47 It'll be several months before we start seeing that. 18:41:56 coppro: "Whitelist". 18:42:13 it's easy to break THAT! 18:42:13 elliott, yes it can fill a selection with lava like that. 18:42:16 pikhq: eh, ok 18:42:22 just make a hacker which has the exact same signature as a legit game. 18:42:23 DUH 18:42:30 oh, also, this totally assumes that they don't use a cracked PS3 to download the update and pick it apart 18:42:30 elliott, something like //set lava after making a selection 18:42:31 Vorpal: i linked it because it was funny not because i thought worldedit couldn't do it 18:42:49 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:42:51 elliott, oh I must have misinterpreted your line " Vorpal: so if worldedit can do that then SURE" then 18:42:53 All this will only prevent homebrew from happening on new consoles, anyways. 18:43:03 Vorpal: if worldedit can generate SUCH HILARITY then sure. 18:43:09 The update *will have to be* encrypted with the old keys. 18:43:12 Hmm, I guess it's a bit late for me to buy a PS3? 18:43:17 elliott, ah 18:43:19 Sgeo_: not if you do it NOW 18:43:19 pikhq: but then they can break the new keys 18:43:22 Which means that you will *have* the new keys. 18:43:28 since the new keys will have to be encoded in the same way 18:43:31 So piracy on old hardware will happen forever and ever. 18:43:41 so then piracy on new keys will happen the same way 18:43:47 fizzie: i am trying to figure out how to do the packet_id enum in SML sanely :D 18:43:48 damn your C 18:43:50 And there is literally nothing Sony can do about it at all. 18:44:01 j-invariant: there is definitely not the address of the minecraft server in yesterday's logs. 18:44:06 pikhq, you will have the public keys though, which shouldn't be private, so? Oh, unless you intercept it? 18:44:08 elliott: Oh, you're actually doing the ML rewrite? 18:44:09 right oklopol? 18:44:15 fizzie: well i'm... toying with the idea :D 18:44:19 fizzie: it might not actually include the map part 18:44:20 elliott, also worldedit can generate snowfall. Might be useful up around dw's place 18:44:27 Sgeo_: The public keys are sufficient for doing piracy on cracked firmware. 18:44:28 Sgeo_: it's symmetric encryption 18:44:31 iirc 18:44:42 elliott, that seems... stupid 18:44:55 elliott: It's assymmetric, but all PS3s have the public key. 18:44:55 Sony, stupid? haha you lie 18:45:03 would be nice if you could just disable the bad thingies in some areas 18:45:04 Okay, I have now produced a Windows mcmap binary that has working //coords, and it worked for me (in nomap mode) under Wine: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-win.zip 18:45:05 pikhq: mhm 18:45:09 oklopol: fizzie ^ 18:45:14 It's *supposed* to be in a SPU that you can't normally access. 18:45:27 oklopol: "mcmap -cm a322.org:25566" in a cmd window 18:45:32 "The public keys are sufficient for doing piracy on cracked firmware." 18:45:32 oklopol: then connect to 127.0.0.1 with minecraft 18:45:36 oklopol: and do //coords in chat 18:45:39 ...why? 18:45:44 They can just replicate the attack method on the new keys on old hardware, can't they? 18:45:46 How does that make.. I'm confused 18:45:55 coppro: not if sony redoes the encryption without stupid 18:45:58 I think it should have a Win32-specific launch dialog where you enter the host/port and select the options, since aren't Windows users in general rather uncomfortable with the command line? 18:46:02 Sgeo_: Decrypt stuff with the new keys, and run it on firmware that doesn't do the key check. 18:46:34 fizzie: does mcmap give up permanently whenever it sees an invalid password? 18:46:36 coppro: The key revealing actually came because Sony did their signing algorithm retardedly. 18:46:46 I suppose I could have each packet ID written twice (one in the data type, one in an int -> packet_id converter) 18:46:48 oh 18:46:50 coppro: It's actually not anything on the PS3 itself at *all*. 18:46:57 ah, ok 18:47:03 18:45 fizzie: I think it should have a Win32-specific launch dialog where you enter the host/port and select the options, since aren't Windows users in general rather uncomfortable with the command line? 18:47:08 this just makes me want to design some weird 2D cellular automata 18:47:10 fizzie: do you _want_ to encourage clueless windows users to use this? 18:47:20 j-invariant: do it in redstone 18:47:24 Anyways. Sony's "security" architecture is positively retarded. 18:47:25 GoL has been done 18:47:46 in minecaft? I dind't mean in minecraft 18:47:50 Fun fact: with arbitrary code execution *at all*, you can decrypt everything ever even without access to the keys that you shouldn't be able to access. 18:47:52 j-invariant: :D 18:47:56 j-invariant: everything in your life is minecraftn ow 18:47:58 elliott: Market adoption, I hear it's important. And it gives up permanently whenever the TCP connection is closed. (It doesn't look at the login packets otherwise, except for reading the player entity ID out of it.) 18:48:05 fizzie: er invalid packet 18:48:10 The decryption SPU can be used as a decryption oracle so long as you're running code. 18:48:14 fizzie: what does it do if it sees an invalid packet? 18:48:15 give up forever? 18:48:20 "Category theory is a popular framework for expressing abstract properties of 18:48:20 mathematical structures. 18:48:21 " 18:48:25 um. that's one way to put it 18:48:34 Seriously, the PS3 is fucked 15 different ways. 18:48:45 elliott: Well, yes, because it's impossible to guess where the invalid packet would end. I guess it could *try* to resync, but I'm not sure how likely that is to work. 18:48:51 fizzie, elliott is morally opposed to anything that is popular. 18:49:02 Sgeo_: um are you _defending_ Windows 18:49:14 Oh, and there will *be* arbitrary code execution exploits: you write software for it in C. 18:49:16 Or C++. 18:49:21 i'm just saying that the kind of people who won't open cmd.exe to type "mcmap blah" are the kind of people who are going to produce the whining fizzie loathes so 18:49:37 Maybe they can't figure out where to whine. 18:49:48 If they whine, say, on the minecraft forums, that's not a loss for me. 18:49:52 fizzie: Sgeo_'s right here. 18:49:58 fizzie: more seriously-- 18:50:02 fizzie: do you really want to touch the win32 api? :-) 18:50:12 It's been a while; it might be nostalgick. 18:50:14 I hear it is _quite_ loathesome. 18:50:45 I already looked at the dialog resource script file format, it's very awful. (MinGW of course doesn't have a dialog designer thing.) 18:51:26 A Win binary without the mapping feature might not be very popular, though. 18:51:34 fizzie: Just do it all with those OK/Cancel default MsgBoxes. 18:51:35 And of course there's the denial-of-service thing. 18:51:43 fizzie: "Is the first bit of the address 0?" 18:52:20 fizzie: Yes, I think //goto is rather good justification for never letting this out ever. (Even if you removed it, just takes one intrepid commit-logger...) 18:52:29 Especially since it has been verified to do Awful Things. 18:52:57 Can't Notch make //goto ineffective over the relevent distances? 18:53:11 Sgeo_: The reason //goto works is because his server architecture is completely broken. 18:53:20 I do not expect he could redesign it to be less broken, as he is an idiot. 18:53:46 How DOES it work? 18:53:54 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 18:53:55 Again, his todo list hints that //goto is pretty likely to be nerfed in the future. 18:54:32 fizzie: You still haven't shown why really. 18:54:37 Sgeo: Telling you that seems ... unwise. 18:54:38 A simple maximum-speed check for PLAYER_MOVE messages would make it unworkable. 18:54:51 fizzie: What entry in his todo list implies it'll be fixed? 18:54:55 ...it's just PLAYER_MOVE messages? 18:55:21 elliott: The highest-priority "Make the server check for flying, no clip and increased speed." one? 18:55:22 > fix(([1,2]++).drop 2.(uncurry replicate=<<).flip zip(cycle[1,2])) 18:55:23 [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,... 18:55:26 Sgeo: It works by sending 20 of them with subtly invalid fields that confuse the server in a specific way. 18:55:31 Sgeo: There, now don't abuse it. 18:55:41 fizzie: Hmm, isn't that from the Classic era? 18:55:47 fizzie: I know flying was ubiquitous then. 18:55:57 fizzie: I don't think noclip is possible with Alpha, but it was with Classic. 18:56:10 Well, the context is "Before beta", so technically speaking all three things should be already done. :p 18:56:13 Back. 18:56:26 (I think he's sort of given up with that toodledo list.) 18:57:07 "While we [Mojang] were doing this [having a strategy meeting], there was a film crew on place (since Monday, actually), documenting and interviewing." 18:57:17 Ooh, expect a "Minecraft: the making of" hip-cumentary. 18:57:26 (It's like a documentary, except more hip.) 18:58:08 Vorpal: have you excavated recently by any chance? 18:58:09 "Oh, and I’ve finally committed the Music Blocks to the repository. 18:58:09 (Oh, wait, no, I didn’t.. Doing so broke git, so we’re changing to svn because git is horrible and evil)" 18:58:19 fizzie: ...did he say that. 18:58:21 fizzie: Did Notch say that. 18:58:26 fizzie: Please tell me Notch didn't say that. 18:58:28 Yes, it's in his glob. 18:58:35 fizzie: I'm going to punch him IRL. 18:58:42 fizzie, when it seems imminent that it will be fixed, we make the server crash bug public and watch the anarchy. 18:58:42 fizzie: He has circlejerks^Wmeetups, right? 18:58:52 Phantom_Hoover: Evil, but ... fun. But evil. 18:58:54 But ... fun ... 18:59:05 I don't know, but probably some sort of events, yes. 18:59:10 *Extremely* fun. 18:59:49 fizzie: OK. So theoretically I could go and punch him. 18:59:52 Unless he has fan bodyguards? 19:01:02 "If this gets a bunch of upvotes, I'll write and record a concept album about Creepers, and release it for free in February." 19:01:05 I am going to punch everyone. 19:01:41 "I'm kind of sad to see him diss git like that. I really enjoy it, and it has lots of advantages over svn. It's a shame he ran into problems. (But.. svn?? There are other options, man! It's not like you're committing large binary files!)" 19:01:45 Now, please, bet on the following statement: 19:01:53 "Notch is committing large binary files to the Minecraft repository." 19:02:54 fizzie: Phantom_Hoover: Also bet on: "Adventure mode will exist in the first post-beta release." 19:03:05 "Music Blocks" does sound pretty much like large binary files. 19:03:34 fizzie: Music blocks is this new block type he's adding. 19:03:39 It toots or something. 19:03:43 Source: Twatter. 19:04:01 Ha, apparently they're trying to "come up with a release date" for Minecraft already. 19:04:08 Vorpal: Are all Swedes stupid, or is my sample size just deficient? 19:04:43 elliott, me and olsner aren't stupid 19:04:50 Oh, right, olsner isn't stupid. 19:04:53 Maybe just most Swedes then. 19:05:11 elliott, why has Notch abandoned Git? 19:05:23 18:57 fizzie: "Oh, and I’ve finally committed the Music Blocks to the repository. 19:05:23 18:57 fizzie: (Oh, wait, no, I didn’t.. Doing so broke git, so we’re changing to svn because git is horrible and evil)" 19:05:26 Because Notch has no brain. 19:05:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:05:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:06:03 Notch has stolen the concept of Minecraft from the world; nobody can ever execute it properly, because the accusations of plagiarism will be non-stop. 19:06:12 I propose a lynching. 19:06:57 elliott, me and olsner aren't stupid <-- you _have_ to be the straight man, don't you? :D 19:07:23 oerjan: i do wonder if he really missed my "subtle" insult, or whether he just decided to ignore it for the sake of anti-comedy 19:07:35 (anti-comedy is not the result of anti-jokes, it is the result of being anti-joke) 19:07:58 anti-jokes are, of course, hilarious. 19:08:55 elliott, FWIW, I added "Complaining About People Not Liking The Show" to MC's TV Tropes page. 19:09:00 Countdown to revert... 19:09:22 Phantom_Hoover: THAT IS A SUBJECTIVE TROPE 19:09:25 br 19:09:28 *brb 19:09:42 Notch's fans seem to be using the Diaspora excuse to excuse his issues 19:10:10 "Was originally a Spiritual Successor of the free Infiniminer" 19:10:19 Zach must fucking hate Notch. 19:10:42 Phantom_Hoover: BTW, Survival Test is now completely gone. 19:14:24 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: snpidcoc). 19:14:35 -!- coppro has joined. 19:15:08 fizzie: Can you force ineiros' IP to change to something really easily-guessable? 19:15:28 back to mc 19:16:07 oklopol: DON'T WORRY IF YOU'RE GOING ON THE SERVER I'M AT THE SPAWN TO HELP GUIDE YOU >:D 19:17:14 fizzie: "Somewhat averted by Alpha Update 1.0.15. Wood and other flammable blocks now catch fire up to three blocks away from lava." 19:17:15 For the rules. 19:17:45 fizzie: Hey, I just realised all the slogan texts are gone, it just says "finally beta now" (just realised: just read on the tv tropes page) 19:17:46 :( 19:20:09 *finally beta" now 19:21:51 " oklopol: DON'T WORRY IF YOU'RE GOING ON THE SERVER I'M AT THE SPAWN TO HELP GUIDE YOU >:D" <<< i am not at spawn tho 19:22:41 Interesting; the "Finally beta!" string comes from a try { ... } catch (Exception e) { l = "Finally beta!"; } code-structure. 19:22:54 fizzie: X-D 19:23:04 Even though the /title/splashes.txt is still there in the .jar. 19:23:10 I don't know how he's hardcodeded it. 19:23:10 Hello again. 19:23:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:23:46 Next trope to add to Minecraft: Idiot Programming. 19:24:02 elliott, BtW, http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Eric_S._Raymond&diff=709079&oldid=708724 19:24:15 Phantom_Hoover: Seen, and mentioned to you ages ago. 19:24:20 It's better than before, so I won't argue. 19:24:22 Oh, you did? 19:24:23 OK. 19:24:24 (before = before i edited) 19:24:49 You could argue that his work in computing is generally respectable. 19:25:10 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, uh, fetchmail. 19:25:12 Respectable. 19:25:13 " oklopol: "mcmap -cm a322.org:25566" in a cmd window" <<< it just tells me how to use mcmap 19:25:16 elliott, *generally*. 19:25:20 Usage: ... 19:25:24 oklopol: what did you type, in full 19:25:30 did ou type -exactly- that :P 19:25:31 *you 19:25:32 copied that exactly 19:25:34 Fetchmail is in the category of embarrassingly wrong. 19:25:40 fizzie: ^ 19:25:55 Someone have a link summing up MC's stupid technical problems? 19:26:02 Oh, no, it doesn't: it actually comes from something like try { ...; l = splashes.get(rnd.nextInt(splashes.size())); goto bleh; } catch (Exception e) { bleh: l = "Finally beta!"; } ... assuming I read the bytecode right. So it actually selects a random splash, then rewrites it with that. 19:26:09 -!- Behold has joined. 19:26:20 Or just a series of links to examples of Notch's idiocy. 19:26:35 oklopol: That's weirdistic. But admittedly I have only tried it with wine. What about "mcmap dummy -cm a322.org:25566"? 19:27:09 Though I guess that won't hep, since it'd anyway just miss the -cm part. 19:27:29 19:25 Phantom_Hoover: Someone have a link summing up MC's stupid technical problems? 19:27:37 Phantom_Hoover: why do you assume the badness of things is always summed up in links 19:27:42 fizzie: ... :D 19:27:47 (I manually split the command line I get from GetCommandLine() at spaces, since that one includes the program name, unlike the WinMain lpCmdLine param.) 19:27:49 elliott, it's for the TV Tropes page. 19:28:05 I want at least *some* evidence before I call Notch an idiot. 19:28:06 I should just figure out how to make mingw build a binary with a traditional "main". 19:28:11 Or add that launcher dialog! 19:28:19 fizzie: Well it's _meant_ to just work. :p 19:28:31 That :D was from the bleh: thing. 19:28:32 Of course. 19:28:59 Yes, but it doesn't want to "just work" for me. 19:29:10 elliott, me and olsner aren't stupid <-- you _have_ to be the straight man, don't you? :D <-- hah 19:29:18 yeah Vorpal isn't gay 19:29:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:29:42 Phantom_Hoover: look at random pages on minecraft wiki, "pigs stopped working after the halloween update due to the texture of cobblestone being changed" 19:30:52 oklopol: <33 19:30:55 please tell me that's true 19:30:55 MinGW crt1.c supposedly has this: 19:30:57 * Call the main function. If the user does not supply one 19:30:57 * the one in the 'libmingw32.a' library will be linked in, and 19:30:57 * that one calls WinMain. See main.c in the 'lib' dir 19:30:57 * for more details. 19:31:01 :D 19:31:02 oklopol: i would really like that to be actually true 19:31:06 oklopol: i can actaully believe it 19:31:09 that would be pretty awesome. 19:31:16 So yes, it's supposed to use a user-supplied main when there is one. 19:31:22 what was that problem with trees inflooping cause by something unrelated 19:31:27 oklopol: turns out he procedurally generated the pig texture based on the cobblestone one, obviously 19:31:31 *caused 19:31:34 and also, stores state in the unused parts of the texture 19:31:34 hehe 19:31:38 elliott, what. 19:31:48 oklopol: or, better: the pig and cobblestone code is completely unrelated 19:31:53 and the pig code doesn't even touch the texture code 19:31:53 at all 19:31:54 OK, that idiot programming trope is going up NOW. 19:31:59 Phantom_Hoover: note: this is lies 19:31:59 :D 19:32:05 elliott, doesn't matter. 19:32:07 Phantom_Hoover: just very true lies 19:32:20 It's still such a crazy bug it qualifies by itself. 19:32:37 Phantom_Hoover: it isn't real 19:33:02 -!- BMG has joined. 19:33:14 Hmm. 19:33:35 Republicans in the House read the US Constitution upon opening the current session of Congress... 19:33:42 *And intentionally omitted parts*. 19:33:51 oaky leaf decay caused infloops in leaves. still kind of weird that was not something he could just quickly fix. 19:33:55 pikhq: :D 19:33:58 elliott: Oh, I think it's a SDL problem, in fact. The SDL.h header does: #if defined(__WIN32__) ... #define main SDL_main ...; and then there's supposed to be some sort of a SDL winmain.c that calls it. How very messy. 19:34:00 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:34:02 oklopol: ah yes, leaf decay is very oaky. 19:34:05 fizzie: OH YEAH, SDL_main 19:34:09 Including the ⅗ths compromise... 19:34:11 fizzie: I had to do stuff with that once 19:34:17 elliott: where is your ubuntuforums post? 19:34:18 fizzie: just rename main to SLD_main 19:34:20 *SDL_main 19:34:24 cheater99: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1658418 19:34:31 fizzie: for all platforms 19:34:32 (which stated that, for the purposes of the census, a slave will be considered ⅗ths of a person.) 19:34:35 fizzie: and it'll Work Out Perfectly IIRC 19:34:51 if i don't disable the map, what'll happen? 19:34:55 i don't have the balls to try myself 19:34:59 Well, I'd still like some examples of completely stupid bugs. 19:34:59 oklopol: you'll probably die 19:35:04 oklopol: but i'd wait until fizzie fizes :P 19:35:05 *fixes 19:35:11 fizzes 19:35:13 shit 19:35:14 Phantom_Hoover: placing torches on leaves used to only work in fancy...or was it fast 19:35:18 is the shop open i want stuff 19:35:19 but it worked when you put it back 19:35:31 as in they didn't disappear 19:35:56 It pains me to say this, but I can't add the trope with that evidence. 19:36:37 the fact he clearly codes every new enemy from scratch should be evidence enough 19:36:49 there's tons of evidence for that: every object works slightly differently 19:37:00 i meant 19:37:01 *mean 19:37:15 details do, even though the relevant things are the same for them 19:37:39 well, i'm not being very helpful, but the point is it's weird if no one has collected this stuff in a list 19:37:46 there's evidence everywhere 19:38:30 well anyway shoppe tyme 19:40:11 elliott: Well, it only works if with SDL_main if I also statically link in -lSDLmain, and I'm not sure I want to do that. I guess it's sort-of recommended-by-some, but it breaks e.g. the otherwise legal "int main(void)". (And -lSDLmain is not part of SDL's pkg-config flags.) I think I'll just crudely work-around it in the win32 build, that one is allowed to be ugly. 19:40:39 fizzie: Okay, but I think it's like that for a Reason. 19:40:43 fizzie: SDL needs special initialising on win32 I think. 19:41:54 took a random page: "Currently, slimes cannot spawn naturally, but this will most likely be fixed." <<< why the fuck do they have their own spawning code? 19:42:06 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 19:42:27 and what the fuck is hard about using a function to calculate prob of appearing from height, and then adding a certain kind of tile on the map 19:42:31 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 19:42:31 -!- BMG has joined. 19:42:34 maybe he wants to make them into puddings 19:42:34 how the fuck can you have a bug in that 19:42:34 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 19:44:52 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:46:05 So did oko get it started or what actually happened? 19:46:40 fizzie: Get what started. 19:46:45 He's not on the server at least. 19:46:46 mcmap. 19:47:47 fizzie: Well, he hasn't tried it since the first error afaik. 19:47:57 This time I got even the mappy version started, and there's a map and all, but then it hung up after two chat messages and downloading most of the initial chunks. 19:48:07 (In Wine.) 19:48:32 Something is probably wrong there, but Wine-testing is so crummy. 19:49:16 He can try the same URL again, it has a "regular" main now so maybe the command line args work too. (Then again, maybe not.) 19:49:20 hmm, according to Slashdot, converting the string "2.2250738585072011e-308" into a floating point number sends PHP 5.2 and 5.3 into an infinite loop 19:49:32 so it's not /just/ Excel that has problems with float stringification 19:49:48 again, you wonder how that was discovered... 19:51:22 ais523: welcome to three days ago 19:51:27 oklopol: redownload it 19:53:57 elliott: have you tried resizing the existing mac partition(s) and putting a new partition on there? 19:54:08 erm 19:54:11 on the hard drive.. 19:55:01 cheater99: Uhh, I did that before any of this ... you do realise my issue is actually getting the LiveCD booted, right? 19:55:03 Well, liveUSB. 19:55:24 elliott: so you don't want ubuntu permanently on your laptop? 19:55:39 cheater99: You have a way to install Ubuntu without booting the live media now? 19:55:45 I'm not about to use Wubi. 19:55:50 elliott: yes 19:55:53 cheater99: orly. 19:56:00 elliott: install ubuntu on another computer, and clone the partition over 19:56:04 i've done that 1304758203475 times 19:56:06 cheater99: not an option. 19:56:09 why? 19:56:23 I don't have any even vaguely-similar hardware. plus, the fstab would be fucked up and probably all kinds of shit would break subtly. 19:56:28 (since the fstab uses guids nowadays.) 19:56:32 the hardware doesn't matter 19:56:36 oklopol, elliott: If it still doesn't work, I'll just build a windows binary that hardcodes the command line options. 19:56:42 i've been swapping the same hard drive between 3 different cpu architectures 19:56:51 cheater99: cpu is irrelevant. 19:56:53 it works straight away (well i have to reboot once) 19:56:58 cheater99: for instance 19:57:01 cheater99: bootloader installation 19:57:03 I have no other EFI machines 19:57:05 yes 19:57:13 bootloader is different 19:57:14 but! 19:57:27 i believe there is the grub installer for macos too 19:57:46 cheater99: yeaaaah no, it's probably grub-efi 19:57:47 which sucks 19:57:59 you can tell it to install grub on disk n partition k and it does it all automagically 19:57:59 i really only want to go the live-media route. 19:58:02 it should not be difficult. 19:58:14 what's grub-efi and why is it bad? 19:58:15 macos is what mcdonald's calls tacos 19:58:25 cheater99: grub-efi is grub-efi and it's bad because linux efi support sucks 19:58:35 what's efi? 19:58:53 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:58:54 i'm not apple-compatible, i don't know those things 19:59:01 hah 19:59:10 waiting for connection 19:59:28 -!- elliott has joined. 19:59:29 cheater99: if you don't know what efi is, the chances of you being able to help me are close to 0. 19:59:34 considering it's basically the entire problem 19:59:44 elliott: well if you explain it to me then i will know it! 19:59:56 oklopol: When it says "waiting for connection", it means you have to start minecraft and connect to 127.0.0.1. 20:00:05 (Or presumably "localhost".) 20:00:05 cheater99: dentistry is about toothcare. can you give me a filling? 20:00:07 i know! 20:00:15 elliott: i can try! :D 20:01:15 elliott: so you don't want grub at all, yes? 20:01:25 yes, i do 20:01:35 i want normal grub, as the ubuntu live media installs perfectly on macs when it is booted. 20:01:51 elliott: i don't think it's a special grub that there is 20:02:01 elliott: erm, that sounded funny 20:02:12 cheater99: Yes, there is, grub-efi. 20:02:18 I _do_ know this shit. 20:02:29 elliott: what about running ubuntu in parallels 20:02:38 i want to run ubuntu as my main os. also, parallels is crap. 20:02:47 i mean just once 20:02:58 elliott: you can run it in parallels, have the normal grub install stuff, and you could boot ubuntu. 20:03:00 maybe. 20:03:26 cheater99: considering parallels emulates a "normal" BIOS PC, I'd put the chances of that working fairly low ... but more importantly, I don't think parallels can read/write to an existing system partition 20:04:12 can you on mac set another partition as "bootable" like on pcs? 20:04:40 -!- pumpkin has joined. 20:05:51 cheater99: umm, sort of. but that wouldn't help. 20:06:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:06:17 but then you could write grub to just the linux partition, and make that partition bootable ("sort of") 20:06:20 and maybe it could work? 20:06:21 when someone talks, it crashes, i think 20:06:29 fizzie: you didn't make it use readline did you 20:06:33 oklopol: I've noticed something like that too. 20:06:35 cheater99: i already wrote grub to a partition, sort of 20:06:35 elliott: No. 20:06:39 i could only find a floppy image of grub 1 20:06:46 it doesn't help :) 20:07:06 i think maybe grub 2 could be better, sort of? 20:07:16 Most of console.c's #ifdef'd out, it just uses the "write to file descriptor 1" approach of consolying. 20:07:28 (It shouldn't have the readline thread started or anything.) 20:07:42 Yes this is fixable by doing a smc reset. This should fix your USB ports: 20:07:42 Note: Portable computers that have a battery you should not remove on your own include MacBook Pro (Early 2009) and later, all models of MacBook Air, and MacBook (Late 2009). 20:07:42 1. Shut down the computer. 20:07:42 2. Plug in the MagSafe power adapter to a power source, connecting it to the Mac if its not already connected. 20:07:43 3. On the built-in keyboard, press the (left side) Shift-Control-Option keys and the power button at the same time. 20:07:46 4. Release all the keys and the power button at the same time. 20:07:50 5. Press the power button to turn on the computer. Note: The LED on the MagSafe power adapter does not change states or temporarily turn-off when you reset the SMC. 20:07:53 Source: 20:07:55 http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3964 20:08:07 cheater99: what is that from. you could have just linked me. 20:08:17 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1465614 20:08:25 last post 20:08:27 it sounds suspiciously similar to "ZAP THE PRAM" of yore 20:08:42 cheater99: yeah no, my usb ports work fine. 20:08:45 "Hrrrrm...I'm having a problem with the superdrive version. After about a few minutes of booting from the Live-CD (both Ubuntu 10.04 and an old version of Gparted) the superdrive goes dead and the usb port will not work again without a COPS reset. When booted into OS X the superdrive works fine copying whole data DVD's onto the harddrive... any thoughts?" 20:08:48 the usb ports work absolutely fine 20:09:02 maybe they only stop working when you're trying to boot 20:09:02 :D 20:09:03 Phantom_Hoover: there's a guy in scotland i need you to kill 20:09:10 but yea 20:09:15 elliott, who? 20:09:21 Phantom_Hoover: http://mikemcquaid.com/ 20:09:58 which version of macbook air do you have? 20:10:00 Can't be bothered sifting through the blog; outline why he needs to die. 20:10:21 he's complaining about my commit for stupid reasons and is a dick in other pull requests 20:10:22 https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/3817 20:10:31 cheater99: the latest one 20:10:35 cheater99: it is literally days old 20:10:38 so that's 3.2? 20:10:41 yes 20:10:42 3,2 20:10:43 not 3.2 20:11:06 it sounds like the time i have created a reset button for my commodore 20:11:08 erm 20:11:09 Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr imagine if you packaged ghc in a source distro, using the binaries like some other packages do in the source distro, rather than actually building from source, 20:11:12 EFI booting is explained in Brian Tarricones MacBookAir3,1 Gentoo install report : http://spurint.org/misc/installing-g...-macbookair31/ 20:11:12 Basically, it requires a patch to force EFI booting in physical mode rather than virtual mode. 20:11:13 It's a very interesting read for anyone tweaking his/her MBA3,* 20:11:19 Phantom_Hoover: and you got a complaint when submitting it: 20:11:19 source: http://art.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=10202692 20:11:25 Phantom_Hoover: "Please use the binaries to build GHC from source." 20:11:38 Phantom_Hoover: i.e.: "Make lots of computation happen to produce bit-identical binaries." 20:11:45 Phantom_Hoover: note that there is no customistaion of the build possible in this case 20:11:47 *customisation 20:11:55 Phantom_Hoover: this is exactly what's happening, except it's MLton which is basically the same 20:12:14 technically MLton builds with SML/NJ, but no point downloading another compiler to build a really-slow bootstrapper. 20:12:33 elliott: also, are you using the usual installation iso for ubuntu, or the "alternative cd"? 20:12:50 cheater99: the usual iso, and i don't want to use the alternative cd. i have an ethernet adapter so i can use that for the install. 20:13:03 i don't want to efi boot, as i've said 20:13:11 elliott: there are people saying that they couldn't succeed with the usual but alternative worked 20:13:13 [[If you ever make it to Sedona, AZ, I owe you a beer. Why doesn't the wiki say "You just spent an insane amount of money on Apple hardware, save yourself some pain and spring for the Superdrive and ethernet dongle" then direct folks to the Alternate CD? Would have saved me much aggravation. Thanks.]] 20:13:15 CD DRIVES IN 2010 20:13:27 i don't want to spend 60 fucking pounds just to install ubuntu 20:13:43 is alternative going to do efi boot? 20:14:07 cheater99: i mean re that thing you quoted 20:14:13 oh yea 20:14:40 when i bought this i kinda assumed that ubuntu had improved mac support since 2007/2008 20:14:41 siiiigh 20:14:49 (i realise it's not really their fault but still) 20:15:36 i think in london you can also loan out mac hardware probably 20:15:57 i'm not in london. and why would i want to do that 20:16:06 i thought you were in london? 20:16:09 where are you then? 20:16:29 up north 20:16:33 oh 20:16:53 i was gonna say go to the mac store off oxford circus and nag them until they give you a superdrive for a sec 20:17:02 but that's not to be :D 20:18:54 fizzie: i just wrote packet id parsing functions, then realised that this packet_type thing should really just be a packet ADT :D 20:19:08 fizzie: except that translating that from your C will be fun since you don't name any of the packet items 20:19:53 You could use that Haskell implementation as a base, it has data-type-ish packets. Though I don't think I really saw much names there either. 20:20:08 ais523: was it you i discussed zooko's triangle with? maybe not 20:20:14 fizzie: well i don't actually need names come to think of it 20:20:16 fizzie: got a link to that haskell? 20:20:32 I'm not sure if it's updated to the beta protocol. 20:21:32 I got the early protocol bits from https://gist.github.com/727175 -- then the rest from that one wiki.) 20:21:34 (Away now.) 20:21:49 fizzie: Hmm, wait, I'll have to parse every parser manually won't I if I do this. 20:23:13 fizzie: Erm, that is, I'll have to parse even similar-parametered ones separately. 20:23:15 Heh, it uses She. 20:23:17 *SHE. 20:23:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:25:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:31:34 do sha512 digests ever contain nul bytes? 20:31:54 of course they do 20:33:35 are you suuuure :D 20:33:40 elliott, where does that guy you want me to kill live? 20:33:46 Phantom_Hoover: scotland. 20:33:59 Phantom_Hoover: specifically, broughty ferry. 20:34:14 The same place as Bob Servant! 20:35:07 void packet_free(gpointer packet); 20:35:11 fizzie: Shouldn't that be packet_t *? 20:35:42 * Phantom_Hoover realises that he has no idea where Dundee actually *is*. 20:36:13 Oh, north of Fife. 20:36:58 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if he can get the Operative to kill him. 20:37:21 OTOH, she refused to kidnap Edwin Brady, even though that would be far less work, so that's not likely. 20:37:37 I would guess approximately 22.16% of SHA-512 digests contain at least one 0 byte. 20:38:05 * Phantom_Hoover remembers, with growing horror, that he has a copy of The Emperor's New Mind. 20:38:21 elliott: It's a gpointer so that it can be used as a free-func in one of the containers, I forget where. (Probably the queues.) 20:40:36 elliott, also, you're re-hired as HHI Selector Of Components. 20:40:44 Phantom_Hoover: What do they do. 20:40:57 elliott, remember? For the computeer? 20:41:00 *computer 20:41:04 Phantom_Hoover: Oh god. 20:41:22 base(n, "0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstvuwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ") 20:41:29 anyone got a longer digit set that doesn't have ugly shit in it? :) 20:42:05 elliott, which ones are ugly? 20:42:15 Vorpal: symbols mostly. 20:42:27 elliott, all symbols? or are some okay? 20:42:32 elliott, ä. 20:42:32 maybe. 20:42:35 Phantom_Hoover: no. 20:42:38 too swedish 20:42:45 â. 20:42:49 elliott, add the greek letters 20:42:55 maybe :P 20:42:59 elliott, what are you planning to use this for? 20:43:01 A good idea from Vorpal. 20:43:04 How unusual. 20:43:36 Vorpal: A semi-clone of fizzie's pastebin thing, except instead of doing the useless task of URL shortening as well as pastebinning, mine does private pastebinning and image hosting. 20:43:47 Vorpal: Except I want to make the URLs hashes, rather than evil imperative sequential IDs. 20:43:55 But I want short-ish URLs. :P 20:43:58 hah 20:44:13 elliott, what about adding _ and - then? 20:44:17 Even a 32-char prefix (of a 64-char SHA-1 hash) in base 62 (0-9a-zA-Z) gives things like "8azxrfY2khCG23lFERXRWh3i4Zu". 20:44:21 Vorpal: Those are ugly. Especially when repeated. 20:44:30 elliott, well at least they won't be url encoded :P 20:44:38 0..15 gives: ny6WsmDgQfcMWrngBmLZO6 20:44:39 elliott, the greek letters would be 20:44:42 Oh, and by -char I mean byte. 20:44:54 How good is a 64-bit prefix of SHA-1? :P 20:45:05 As good as a 64-bit hash. 20:45:14 Vorpal: Um, greek letters in URLs work fine, just not Greek domains. And even those might. 20:45:20 fizzie: Good enough? :p 20:45:30 elliott, they will end up encoded as %nn surely? 20:45:37 Vorpal: I doubt it. 20:45:48 Sheesh, even a 12-bit hash gives "ny6WsmDgQfcMWrngBmLZO6". 20:45:50 Erm. 20:45:54 *96-bit 20:46:07 elliott, a counter does have some advantages :P 20:46:14 I liked the "shortest unconflicting prefix, lookup oldest-first" thing, but it does have the "URLs get longer as time passes" property. 20:46:34 fizzie: And is also EVIL and STATEFUL. 20:46:52 fizzie: Is that what your thing does? 20:47:01 elliott, just paste data uris instead. Self contained! (though it completely missed all the other points 20:47:01 elliott, include "$" 20:47:06 No, I think my thing just generates a random fixed-length ID when you dont' specify one. 20:47:07 it doesn't get url encoded 20:47:08 variable: ew :) 20:47:13 variable: it'll look like /etc/shadow 20:47:26 elliott, ls: /etc/shadow: No such file or directory 20:47:48 why don't you just want to use a sequential numeric id? 20:48:11 20:46 variable: elliott, ls: /etc/shadow: No such file or directory 20:48:17 would you have preferred I said /etc/master.passwd? 20:48:24 :-} 20:48:25 and confused everyone? 20:48:34 elliott, that's what freebsd calls it too btw 20:48:37 sequential numeric IDs are evil and stateful, duh. 20:48:40 Vorpal: that's why i said it. 20:48:43 variable is a BSD zealot :p 20:48:46 aha 20:48:53 elliott, I thought it was what os x uses 20:48:56 or something 20:49:06 "Seems" to. 20:49:14 But there's probably some LDAP database somewhere that it _really_ uses. ;-) 20:49:23 # Note that this file is consulted directly only when the system is running 20:49:23 # in single-user mode. At other times this information is provided by 20:49:23 # Open Directory. 20:49:25 HA 20:49:27 I was right! 20:49:30 elliott, ldap for local, so screwed 20:49:31 elliott, and more than likely it would be possible to change one and not the other 20:49:37 and then get screwed :-} 20:49:42 Apple's Open Directory architecture includes source code for both direc- 20:49:42 tory client access and directory servers. Open Directory forms the foun- 20:49:42 dation of how Mac OS X accesses all authoritative configuration informa- 20:49:44 tion (users, groups, mounts, managed desktop data, etc.). Mac OS X 20:49:45 obtains this information via abstraction APIs, enabling use of virtually 20:49:46 * Phantom_Hoover undermines Mt. Vorpal's security system with some redstone torches and some TNT. 20:49:47 any directory system. Configuration of Open Directory is done through 20:49:50 the Directory Utility applications in /Applications/Utilities. This 20:49:52 application can configure plugin settings, including turning on/off vari- 20:49:54 ous directory services. 20:49:55 Vorpal: Seems it's some custom thing. 20:49:58 Phantom_Hoover: Woo, now we'll never get a TNT kit. 20:50:14 elliott, you misparsed, clearly. 20:50:24 It's LDAP-compatible, though. 20:50:28 Phantom_Hoover: I did? 20:50:29 At least to some extent. 20:50:35 I used the torches for the undermining; I simply *have* some TNT. 20:50:39 Ah. 20:50:42 I have no intention of *using* it. 20:50:46 Obviously. 20:50:58 fizzie: Apple — compatible — to some extent — never a good sign. 20:53:19 fizzie: So, a 40 bit hash -- it'll totally last forever right? 20:53:43 A 48-bit hash is about as high as I'l go. 20:53:45 You're reasonably likely to have collisions when you have around 2^20 entries. 20:53:53 Or 2^24 for that. 20:54:42 And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?) 20:54:55 :D 20:55:18 fizzie: I'm more asking whether a 40-bit hash might cause me problems if, say, SHA-1 is broken. OK, OK, that'll only help for intentional collisions. 20:55:20 BUT STILL. 20:55:34 Are there any quote bots here? 20:55:43 variable: hackego; `quote is the main command, it also greps if you give it an argument 20:55:48 `quote 20:55:48 unless it's a number in which case you have to parenthesis it 20:55:50 If you worry about intentional collisions, 40 bits is quite bruteforceable even without breaking SHA-1. 20:55:51 *parenthesise 20:55:52 (it's egrep) 20:55:57 `quote fizzie 20:56:01 "`pastequotes [optional grep]" and "`pastenquotes" are also quite nice 20:56:10 elliott, no I want to remember one 20:56:11 variable: are you trying to add it? :) 20:56:13 yes 20:56:18 variable: `addquote foo 20:56:22 pikhq: 40 bit prefixes of SHA-1 hashes to identify every entry in a combined pastebin/image database 20:56:24 pikhq: FEASIBLE??? 20:56:33 pikhq: or should i go for a prefix of an SHA-2 function. or just increase the size 20:56:42 elliott, will it only add the last one - or could I say to remember one from before 20:56:50 variable: um you have to type it in manually 20:56:51 thus the foo 20:57:03 `addquote And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?) 20:57:06 elliott, ah. I was thinking of something like !grab user :-} 20:57:07 demonstration :> 20:58:02 Where is hackego, anyway? 20:58:21 GOOD QUESTION 20:58:22 Gregor: 20:58:31 !help 20:58:37 !heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllppppppppppp 20:58:40 I killed 'im. 20:58:45 why ? 20:58:47 !HELP YOU DAMN BOT 20:58:49 I stabbed 'im with a filet knife. 20:59:02 -!- EgoBot has joined. 20:59:05 -!- HackEgo has joined. 20:59:16 `addquote And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?) 20:59:17 wb EgoBot and HackEgo 20:59:26 Gregor, they both yours? 20:59:32 no 20:59:34 Yuh 20:59:35 he just controls them 20:59:38 with his mind 20:59:39 261) And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?) 20:59:39 Mine to stab and/or filet. 20:59:45 `quote 20:59:48 183) you should be eating corpses more 20:59:53 `quote 20:59:54 `quote 20:59:55 `quote 20:59:55 `quote 20:59:56 32) after all, what are DVD players for? 20:59:58 226) [...] I'm just widening the shaft to be 4x2 or so. 21:00:00 100) Discrimination fields ACTIVATE. 21:00:02 165) you don't have an urethra, you're a girl. 21:00:10 elliott, ah. I was thinking of something like !grab user :-} 21:00:16 The quotes are of ... mixed quality. 21:00:22 I *did* clean them up before! but somehow it hasn't helped 21:00:25 Phantom_Hoover, hrm? 21:00:37 !showinterp pi 21:00:49 !show pi 21:00:51 sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=5; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 bc -l | tr -d '\\' 21:01:53 !addinterp grab sh read u; echo '`quote' $u 21:01:54 Interpreter grab installed. 21:02:00 !grab elliott 21:02:01 `quote elliott 21:02:02 209) elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature. \ 212) elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. \ 221) elliott: My university has 21:02:16 I like the fact that none of the quotes are his. 21:02:16 ... 21:02:17 That is, um, not quite what grab was meant to do, methinks. 21:02:31 `quote <(elliott|ehird)[^>]+> 21:02:32 You have no VISION 21:02:33 No output. 21:02:39 `quote 21:02:40 No output. 21:02:44 sucks to be me 21:02:53 Phantom_Hoover, `grab user is supposed to `addquote the last thing user said 21:03:16 !delinterp grab 21:03:17 Interpreter grab deleted. 21:03:20 ARE YOU HAPPY NOW 21:03:20 Can't be done by da botses. 21:03:22 !pi 21:03:22 3.14156 21:03:35 Gregor, why not? 21:03:46 EgoBot, you got it WRONG - your missing digits 21:03:47 !pi 10 21:03:48 3.1415926532 21:04:01 variable: They strictly react to their relevant activation character, they don't record anything else. 21:04:07 * Phantom_Hoover can't help but think something is up here. 21:04:30 Phantom_Hoover: Define something. 21:04:39 !pi 21:04:40 3.14156 21:04:43 !pi 10 21:04:44 3.1415926532 21:04:55 Note the 5th digit of each. 21:05:53 I assume it's because a(1) isn't terribly precise. 21:06:41 `quote poultry 21:06:42 221) elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. Two! 21:09:43 Player count: 6349 21:09:43 Player count: 6350 21:09:43 Player count: 6351 21:09:44 Phantom_Hoover: I think a(1) is precise up to the given "scale", it's just that it takes a(1)*4 there. See, 3.14156/4 = 0.78539; that's... well, actually that's only a truncated five-significant-digits of a(1), not a rounded one. There's that too. 21:09:47 ineiros, what the^ 21:09:55 Ilari, it kept counting up insanely fast 21:09:57 err 21:09:57 ineiros, ^ 21:10:01 damn tab complete 21:10:27 ineiros, I logged off when minecraft started swap trashing from it 21:10:35 That's a lot of players. 21:10:51 fizzie, except mcmap didn't report a lot of players showing up 21:11:27 and now server seems down 21:12:04 oklopol, you were on just before that happened. Is it down? 21:12:08 did you see the same thing? 21:12:28 I hate num lnock 21:12:40 > pi 21:12:41 3.141592653589793 21:12:45 > pi^2 21:12:46 9.869604401089358 21:13:11 `quote No output. 21:13:18 `quote [<]e 21:13:19 No output. 21:13:32 ...there really _are_ no quotes by him? 21:13:42 `quote [<]oe 21:13:43 No output. 21:13:52 `quote oerjan 21:13:53 7) what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 19) ehird has gone insane, clearly. \ 21) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really 21:14:08 i don't think that grep is entirely accurate... 21:14:41 oerjan: howso 21:14:50 `quote < 21:14:52 No output. 21:14:54 i think < may be a special char 21:14:56 `quote \< 21:14:57 No output. 21:15:01 or maybe it's still broken 21:15:04 i think it was broken at one point 21:15:04 elliott: [<]oe should have matched , no? 21:15:10 hm indeed 21:15:13 `paste bin/quote 21:15:14 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6107 21:15:15 oerjan: enjoy fixing 21:16:04 oh wait 21:16:09 `run [ "<" ]; echo $? 21:16:11 0 21:16:13 hm 21:16:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:16:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 21:16:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:18:50 could file(1) be enough to detect programming languages, I wonder? 21:19:54 elliott, for some certainly: #!/bin/sh is a definitely clue for the first line 21:20:06 Vorpal: I mean with the default db -- I recall file tells me "C source" sometimes 21:20:13 yes it does 21:20:15 but the file here I have is OS X file which is ~limited, so i'll ssh into rutian to check 21:20:24 elliott, you need to have a good magic database 21:20:25 elliott, DID YOU KNOW: 21:20:29 variable: duh :) 21:20:30 but yes - it could be good enough 21:20:38 The order in which Oolite loads OXPs is non-deterministic. 21:20:41 elliott, but if you want something even better - look at ohloh 21:20:42 well ubuntu file can't detect ruby code at least 21:20:44 Phantom_Hoover: :D 21:20:50 elliott, but then it identifies charset and such, and that isn't using the magic db iirc 21:20:50 There's no effort to sort it *at all*. 21:21:03 variable: ohloh tends to get things wildly wrong in my experience :-D 21:21:12 variable: and i doubt they have some open source software to do the magic 21:21:18 elliott, they do 21:21:22 :-} 21:21:33 elliott, mostly ohloh mixes up C and C++, though it was worse before 21:21:47 variable: hmm 21:21:48 elliott, and yes their software for doing that is/was FOSS 21:21:57 their site is hell to navigate so links would be nice :D 21:21:58 it does basic line counting stuff too 21:22:08 elliott, google for "ohcount" iirc 21:22:22 all I need is language detection for single streams of text, for my pastebin 21:22:24 http://sourceforge.net/p/ohloh/oh-count/ci/452d902d8f69afc10eecb2e382b0f39cc2342e92/tree/ 21:22:28 I imagine using the file extension would be more practical, though :) 21:22:53 huh, that does not look like normal sourceforge. 21:22:57 ohloh? 21:23:07 Phantom_Hoover: this semi-useless site. 21:29:01 -!- myndzi has joined. 21:29:36 * Phantom_Hoover decides to poke into Oolite's code just to show that fixing the loading order would be trivial. 21:29:40 I will probably fail. 21:29:56 > fix((0:).tail.(([[0,1],[1,0]]!!)=<<)) 21:29:58 [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,... 21:30:14 elliott, ohloh used to be owned by sourceforge 21:30:22 variable: oh. that explains the suckage. 21:30:27 hmmhm, so i guess fizzie stopped working on the win version 21:30:34 oklopol: what 21:30:36 fizzie got it working 21:30:38 you just didn't redownload 21:30:39 i even pinged you about it 21:30:56 i think i downloaded that version and it didn't wokr 21:30:57 *work 21:31:04 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:31:06 at least i downloaded one after fizzie said it works 21:31:14 unfortunately it crashed when someone talked 21:31:26 oklopol: didn't he redo it 21:31:26 coords worked tho 21:31:28 fizzie: ? 21:31:31 so i can prolly use it now 21:31:41 i'll just hope none of you play today 21:32:21 No, I didn't "redo" it, since I'm not sure why it crashes. 21:32:31 I'll try to get it working, though. 21:32:43 But not today; I'll be un-internetted fri/sat/sun, and have to do some packing before. 21:33:06 It's comforting to know that when it crashes in Wine, it in fact crashes also in real life, because then I can perhaps test it locally too. 21:35:06 fizzie: how can you ever be uninternetted WHY 21:35:17 wait are you moving, can i come visit, oklopol will come too 21:35:29 No, no, it's just the Stockholm trip I mentioned. 21:38:00 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:38:20 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 21:38:49 -!- elliott has joined. 21:38:57 fizzie: so err i don't quite understand zpaste, does it store pastes in files 21:39:23 Yes. 21:39:40 Named after, well, the name. 21:41:21 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:43:56 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:44:07 -!- elliott has joined. 21:49:46 are we talking about the stockholm syndrome? 21:54:24 elliott, you have failed in your duties as Selector Of Components. 21:58:34 Phantom_Hoover: What's your budget again? £3? 21:58:45 $expensive. 21:58:59 £expensive, too 21:59:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:59:33 Phantom_Hoover: Wasn't it £800? 21:59:35 Close to £3. 21:59:38 Or was it £700. 21:59:45 £800 is good. 22:00:16 Phantom_Hoover: And ... general requirements? :P 22:00:29 elliott, hmm. 22:00:40 Doesn't crash when I play Oolite with the Griff ships. 22:01:02 (:P) 22:01:18 Phantom_Hoover: You could get that for £300. :p 22:01:37 elliott, yes, that was facetious. 22:01:45 So was mine. 22:05:34 pikhq: I NEED OPINIONS 22:05:52 pikhq: When taking a short (40 or 48-bit) prefix of a hash function, is it best to take a prefix of SHA-1 or one of the SHA-2 functions? If the latter, which? 22:06:20 I, and, uh. 22:06:25 how do you usually walk from the cube, or do you always /spawn? 22:06:53 oklopol: /spawn, yup :D 22:06:57 oklopol: walk from to where 22:07:23 well, anywhere, it's pretty disconnected from the others 22:07:33 which are mostly near spawn 22:07:34 oklopol, actually, not really. 22:07:44 Deewiant's is further, for instance. 22:07:48 well, right 22:08:40 hmm i wonder where mount hoover is relative to cube 22:08:43 i think it's quite close in one axis 22:08:49 and a bit of a walk in the other 22:10:32 oklopol: i'd just walk back to spawn really 22:10:36 oklopol: well 22:10:37 oklopol: actually 22:10:48 oklopol: i'd walk to ineiros and use the minecart system ... except getting into ineiros' pit from below is hard 22:11:01 yeah, that's why i'm asking 22:11:03 but the minecart system is connected to pretty much anywhere, so if you get on there you're golden, assuming lag is low enough 22:11:18 oklopol: you could make a hole outside ineiros' pit that leads near the minecart station there :D 22:11:19 The track to my place is probably nearest, it's how I go to the cube. 22:11:20 because i couldn't find a way there, so anyway i decided i'll just walk at random until i find something, it's worked for me sofar 22:11:31 after all Phantom_Hoover did the connecting, not ineiros 22:11:33 Deewiant: huh? 22:11:39 Deewiant: you go to your house, and then walk to the cube? 22:11:45 that must take a long time surely 22:11:54 No, I start from spawn, minecart to around x = -200, then walk the rest. 22:12:47 Deewiant: er how, the express doesn't have any stops? 22:12:50 do you just sit there monitoring F3 22:12:55 Monitor F3. 22:12:59 Deewiant: :D 22:13:01 Deewiant: how do you get out 22:13:06 Whack the cart. 22:13:09 i mean 22:13:10 out of the station 22:13:28 I've dug two sets of stairs out (the second because I couldn't find the first; at the top I noticed it was about two blocks to the side) 22:13:29 Deewiant: how I do it is: go to ineiros, jump out the northern end, walk over the tiny hill there, then just go west to the cube (about 400 zs away) 22:13:38 Phantom_Hoover: what's your way? 22:13:40 maybe it's quicker 22:13:45 My way is probably faster than yours then 22:13:47 elliott, do you have mcmap? 22:13:50 Given that it's also around 400 zs 22:13:52 Phantom_Hoover: uh sort of. 22:13:54 But the x is all minecart 22:13:55 i don't really use it much :D 22:14:12 Deewiant: yeah but mine doesn't involve holding down F3 and gettin' all twichy 22:14:14 *twitchy 22:14:15 it's relaxin' 22:14:19 The US military is *cutting its budget*. 22:14:26 pikhq: also, hell is chilly 22:14:30 Turn it on, with map mode, then walk to fizzie's, then to that weird dirt thing in the sky, then to the Hall of Midas, then to the cube. 22:14:43 elliott: It's not twitchy, just click once at around 200. :-P 22:15:06 Deewiant: TWITCHY MAN 22:15:15 Phantom_Hoover: "weird dirt thing in the sky"? 22:15:24 elliott, you can see it on the map. 22:15:34 It's a bunch of squares supported by a pillar. 22:16:12 Phantom_Hoover: you mean the one with the tree? 22:16:16 elliott: "Indeed, the pretty printer is too stupid to rename identifiers in case of clash. The result is incomprehensible output as you witnessed. A possible workaround is to try and name identifiers everywhere in the input. 22:16:20 FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUu 22:16:22 elliott, erm, no. 22:16:28 j-invariant: where's that from :D 22:16:37 http://www.reddit.com/r/dependent_types/comments/efb3y/micro_agda_a_simplistic_language_with_native/c1bolme?context=3 22:16:39 pikhq: PREFIX SHA-1 OR SHA-2 22:16:44 j-invariant: :DDDDDDD 22:16:47 elliott: SHA-2 22:16:51 pikhq: why 22:16:53 BECAUSE HIGHER NUMBERS ARE BETTER DOOD 22:16:55 :P 22:16:55 pikhq: ok fine 22:16:57 pikhq: which SHA-2 22:17:01 YES 22:17:02 ais523: do you know anything about this 22:17:04 so mad 22:17:06 I have to fix this myself 22:18:20 pikhq, why is the US military cutting its budget? 22:18:23 $178 billion cut in war spending. 22:18:51 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:18:54 Phantom_Hoover: Partly to make the US budget more balanced, partly because it's a bunch of stuff that is completely unneeded. 22:19:03 :/ 22:19:07 they don't even use a monad 22:19:08 pikhq, like the UK's aircraftless aircraft carriers? 22:19:16 Which we totally need, apparently. 22:19:33 And Republicans are upset about it. 22:19:38 "We're in two wars!" 22:19:54 j-invariant: i love how that reddit discussion is about the difficult task of proving that 0 is not 1 22:19:58 ... And nearly insolvent, and the military budget is half the budget. 22:20:33 There is indeed a weird dirt thing; I've wondered about it. What's it supposed to be? 22:20:47 elliott: thies thing has horrible code duplication 22:20:58 but even with the usual set theoretic construction definition of complex numbers, isn't 0 != 1 trivial? 22:21:03 elliott: yeah you can't prove that in this language :P 22:21:05 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:21:09 j-invariant: useful! 22:21:16 i know 1 != 2 is almost direct at least 22:21:20 j-invariant: hey it represents dependent values as their folds 22:21:23 /induction combinators 22:21:26 and 1 + 1 = 2 22:21:27 fizzie, I have no idea at all. 22:21:34 oklopol: lol @ specifying it on complexes 22:21:43 well 22:21:45 I just know that from it you can see the Hall of Midas on the map. 22:22:01 if you use something like successor functions, then 0 != 1 is basically by def 22:22:10 pikhq: sha-224, 256, 384 or 512 22:22:12 for prefixing 22:22:18 and if you're doing reals, might as well do complexes 22:22:19 oklopol: not in uAgda :D 22:22:33 oh. 22:22:40 interesting 22:22:56 or probably it's trivial but hell of a chore for some technical reason? 22:23:02 oklopol: it's not possible 22:23:10 elliott: Laik, higher numbers better 22:23:13 elliott: 1024 22:23:28 pikhq: laik, clearly the 512 thing has all its hash info spread out whereas 256 is more compact 22:23:29 oklopol: it could be added thogh 22:23:34 so taking a prefix of 256 is more useful 22:23:37 and information filled 22:23:38 pikhq: duhh 22:23:47 :trollface: 22:23:52 ais523 ais523 ais523 22:24:02 so it's by definition, but you can't access the definition 22:24:14 00:51:58 I have decided to use spivak on IRC, all over. 22:24:16 Vorpal: that didn't work out 22:24:29 j-invariant: can you prove true /= false in uagda? 22:25:28 I think so 22:25:49 j-invariant: hmm 22:26:09 elliott: Well, SHA-224 == SHA-256 except with different initial state and it's "pre-truncated" by omitting one 32-bit word at the end, so for truncation purposes it's pretty likely SHA-224 and SHA-256 are essentially equivalent; the same for SHA-384 vs. SHA-512. 22:26:38 The truncated versions aren't even any faster to compute. 22:26:41 fizzie: Well, right. I'm just wondering whether it's better to take a small prefix of SHA-1, SHA-256, or HSA 22:26:42 *SHA-512. 22:26:57 j-invariant: can you prove (\sf zf -> zf) /= (\n sf zf -> sf (n sf zf)) in Coq given uhh I forget the name of the axiom 22:27:06 forall f g,(f=g)<->(forall x, f x = g x) 22:27:09 that one 22:27:12 note <-> not -> 22:27:15 er <- rather 22:27:19 although wait 22:27:21 the axiom only needs -> 22:27:23 hmm 22:27:26 but can you derive 22:27:33 (exists x, f x /= gx) -> (f/=g) from that 22:27:37 elliott, y'know what the Cube needs? 22:27:42 A spleef arena. 22:28:11 Phantom_Hoover: If and only if it's lined with obsidian. 22:28:22 I do not want any "accidental" breakages that leave LavaLite flooded everywhere. 22:28:35 this is so annoying, I can't see how to make this code print out names properly 22:29:24 Vorpal: that didn't work out <-- indeed 22:29:45 i might just start calling everyone and everything "it" 22:29:45 what's the biggest cave in the world? 22:29:53 oklopol: define "cave" 22:30:02 there are tons of massive cavern systems that keep connecting to things you didn't know about :D 22:30:08 sorry, manmade hole in earth 22:30:28 i mean in terms of blocks removed 22:30:31 well 22:30:36 i guess the whole fucking system is connected 22:30:53 Most of that is "natural" cavernetics, though. 22:31:01 but anyway, at subtree, the actual number of blocks removed did not look like that much 22:31:07 I would think Vorpal's mines have the largest number of blocks removed. 22:31:24 oklopol: well ineiros' pit basically... vorpal's mines don't count as holes since 22:31:25 uh 22:31:31 i don't know what they count as; a diagnosis? 22:31:38 erm, ineiros' pit is not very big 22:31:43 fizzie, what about the old mines? 22:31:44 oklopol: It's very deep, though. 22:31:46 oklopol: um it goes down to near bedrock 22:31:53 oklopol: very near in fact 22:32:02 oklopol: and it's on a high mountain 22:32:04 so it's like 100 deep 22:32:09 i've built like 10 caves like that, never from a mountain tho 22:32:15 but point is, that is not that many blocks 22:32:18 oklopol: well ineiros' pit basically... vorpal's mines don't count as holes since <-- why not 22:32:25 Vorpal: because they're not hollow 22:32:35 oh? 22:32:38 possibly never as big, because i just do it when i wanna start underground mining 22:32:51 i mean, in area, which of course means much less blocks 22:33:20 oklopol: well. the stairs aren't really holes 22:33:23 they're ... diagonal holes :D 22:34:07 oklopol: http://zem.fi/~fis/miney.png -- that thing top-right is I think parts of Vorpal's mines. (But I'm no expert on them.) 22:34:23 yes. diagnosis definitely 22:34:25 The mine tunnels aren't that many blocks either, I guess. 22:34:41 But I don't think we have very large man-made holes there. 22:34:42 more than ineiros' pit surely 22:35:01 i mean, mines > pit 22:35:19 they were definitely tons longer than 128 22:35:38 people should just fix their code for me :( 22:35:40 and maybe like sixth of the area? can't really assess 22:36:08 fizzie, *checks 22:36:26 oklopol: http://zem.fi/~fis/miney.png -- that thing top-right is I think parts of Vorpal's mines. (But I'm no expert on them.) <-- yep 22:36:33 oklopol: It's composed of rather thin tunnels, though. 22:37:16 so if i make mines like that, people can just look at them with an editor? 22:37:19 fizzie, nice view of my tree farm too there. 22:37:33 It's hard to get a good grasp of block-volumes from the slices generated by mcmap. 22:37:34 oklopol, fizzie is using mcmap 22:37:46 fizzie, I have no clue about the block volumes either 22:37:56 i thought you needed to have been there, but clearly fizzie hasn't gone to your mines 22:38:20 fizzie: so do i prefix SHA-1, SHA-256 or SHA-512 INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW 22:38:23 oklopol: I have, in fact, but I didn't this time. The region shown there is the region the server sends chunks for when you stand there in the middle. 22:38:24 oklopol, he is on ground somewhere near 22:38:27 oklopol: you just need to go close enough 22:38:35 Vorpal: On top of your mountain, in fact. 22:39:26 fizzie, ah 22:39:37 Random thought: I could have mcmap generate a "minecraft-compatible" world-dump, though; then you could "play" in there, and also run all those pretty-picture offline mapmakers if you wanted. (Though of course only the regions you had walked around in mcmap.) 22:40:15 I've forgotten whether you got the terrain-generation seed out of the handshake packets; it might've been there. (And it might have not.) 22:40:52 fizzie, even if you do, my mines are in pre-halloween but iirc a tiny section crosses into post-halloween 22:41:31 Yes, you'd get discontinuatitities there, but less. And of course I could make mcmap able to "overwrite" an existing world-dump if you already went and moved around in there. 22:41:49 Yes, the map seed is in fact there. 22:41:50 fizzie, hah 22:42:03 discontinuatitties 22:42:42 Incidentally, I did put a launcher-option-setting dialog in the win32 port, with pure win32 api. Mwah-ahaha. (But I didn't fix the crashing bugs. Priorities, priorities...) 22:43:28 fizzie: Ooh, ooh, make sure to misspell words, make the padding all weird, have checkboxes for things that should be radio buttons, and ideally have only one button, "Do it", and have the actual action controlled by other elements of the interface. 22:43:37 fizzie: Writing "Username:" as "UserName :" gets extra bonus points. 22:43:45 -!- Behold has joined. 22:43:48 It is very weird when it comes to control-positioning. 22:44:04 fizzie: As well as using a title like "::[ McMAP v.3.2 ] by fizzie:: [Connect]" 22:45:23 elliott: would it be cheeky to fix the bug in such a horrible way that he feels the need to rewrite the whole thing better rather than applying it? 22:45:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:45:48 j-invariant: you social engineer, you 22:46:31 (_₁ : A⇧¹ → (_quux : A⇧¹) → P₁) → 22:46:31 (_₁quux : A⇧¹ → (_quux : A⇧¹) → P₁quux) → 22:46:32 that's better 22:46:57 j-invariant: please tell me you can get quuxquuxquux 22:47:01 or something 22:47:05 yeah if there's three nested types 22:47:42 j-invariant: why not just make it use ' 22:47:45 or even UNICODE PRIME 22:47:56 ah that would work :P 22:50:39 pikhq: Coreutils in HASKELL -- best idea or worst idea or worst idea or best worst idea 22:50:52 elliott: Both. Simultaneously. 22:51:02 pikhq: HERE'S MY CAT IMPLEMENTATION 22:51:09 main = putStr =<< getContents 22:51:22 oh wait should probably disable buffering before doing that 22:51:23 But arguments! 22:51:59 pikhq: oh yeah indeed 22:52:05 pikhq: well i have something to tell you brother 22:52:07 pikhq: FUCK ARGUMENTS 22:52:12 XD 22:52:13 (cat TOO PUSSY FOR THAT? WELL THEN FUCK OFF 22:52:30 Well, that makes cat useless... 22:52:50 pikhq: Why? 22:53:17 ( It's called *cat*. 22:54:22 pikhq: 22:54:23 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ 22:54:23 It con*cat*enates files. 22:54:27 I don't know what shell that works on. 22:54:33 Phantom_Hoover: No. It's like a cat: it repeats everything you say. 22:54:33 Duh. 22:54:44 Or was that a parrot? Same thing, anyway. 22:54:49 elliott, I want your cat. 22:55:02 elliott: Huh, thought most shells did that. 22:55:02 Phantom_Hoover: IT IS GREAT it says "polly wants a cracker" a lot and sometimes i let it out of its cage. 22:55:08 elliott: Well, it does work in zsh. 22:55:10 pikhq: using bash 3 here :D 22:55:18 pikhq: Oh, zsh is totally crazy with pipelines. 22:55:22 pikhq: Try this: "cat pikhq: In fact, " Yes, zsh has cat built into its pipelines. 22:55:35 Because it's fucking crazy. 22:55:44 Sure enough, it does. 22:55:44 pikhq: Did I mention that multiple outputs does "tee"? 22:55:47 I ♥ zsh. 22:55:53 And yes, I'm well aware of that. 22:56:06 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air% x >y 22:56:07 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air% fun main = print "Hello, world!\n" 22:56:08 fun main = print "Hello, world!\n" 22:56:10 fun main = print "Hello, world!\n" 22:56:12 fun main = print "Hello, world!\n" 22:56:20 Delish. 22:56:36 just another example of the shift from libraries tolanguages 22:57:06 Mathnerd314: what. 22:57:13 zsh has always been crazy, there's no "shift" 22:57:19 and shells hardly have "libraries" 22:57:22 they've always built shit in. 22:57:49 fizzie: DO I PREFIX SHA-1, SHA-256, OR SHA-512, I AM LITERALLY IMPLODING RIGHT NOW? 23:00:14 * Phantom_Hoover uses zsh due to the crazy. 23:00:40 elliott: the question is whether more people use zsh 23:01:17 right now maybe I can figure out this silly thing 23:01:28 Mathnerd314: than what 23:02:40 elliott: than weak shells with less-powerful input languages 23:03:03 Mathnerd314: zsh is vastly less popular than bash. also, a less bloated shell is not "weaker". 23:03:09 shells are, after all, an interface to unix. 23:03:22 " ">x >y" is also fairly pointless as "| tee x >y" does the job just as well. 23:04:44 elliott: Oh, right, that. Well, I mean, theoretically speaking SHA-512 will have a larger safety margin (more rounds and so on) when it comes to getting breaked so that you can solve it faster than brute-force, but if your truncation is small enough to be practically bruteforceable then it really doesn't matter. 23:05:38 fizzie: sha256 is a lot faster, at least (when applied to large images; though I am using the hideously efficient pure library. I'll try a binding.) 23:06:08 I might just go with a truncated SHA-256, it's cheaper to compute than SHA-512 and all. And I'm sure hashing speed will of course be your bottleneck. 23:06:25 fizzie: It will, yes, my network is instant. 23:07:31 Phantom_Hoover: I have a feeling that OS X users tend to use zsh. I don't know why. 23:07:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:07:36 Phantom_Hoover: I blame your heritage. 23:07:40 elliott, what will you do in case of a collision? 23:07:42 elliott: That combines with every *other* redirection thing, though. 23:07:52 elliott, I started using zsh *after* OS X. 23:07:53 elliott, on the truncated hash I mean 23:07:58 Vorpal: *** OH GOD HASH COLLISION: WHY GOD WHY 23:08:07 Vorpal: The likely of a hash collision with 40 or 48 bits is pretty unlikely :p 23:08:08 *:P 23:08:09 elliott: >(x) >(y) 23:08:10 *likelihood 23:08:14 If I wasn't _specifically_ trying to break shit. 23:08:19 elliott, so it will properly refuse upload of the collided file then? 23:08:20 pikhq: Clearly | should be sugar for >(...). 23:08:24 main = putStr =<< getContents <-- you mean main = interact id >:) 23:08:26 Vorpal: Yes. 23:08:29 oerjan: i was considering that :) 23:08:39 elliott, how will it handle exact dupe 23:08:46 silent? 23:08:48 Vorpal: What do you mean. Uploading the same file twice? 23:08:56 elliott, yes 23:08:58 It'll just barf out and say there's a hash collision, probably. :p 23:09:09 ah 23:09:09 I might make it say "This has already been added! ...or else there's a hash collision." 23:09:13 It is, after all, single-user. 23:09:27 Probably. 23:11:38 fizzie, why leave the game? :/ 23:11:54 elliott: after before before http://pastebin.com/swa5r518 23:11:55 Vorpal: Early morning tomorrow, have a boat to catch. 23:12:17 j-invariant: what :D 23:12:23 fizzie: a boat? you so zany 23:12:27 fizzie, hope it doesn't break. But in case it does bring 4 wood 23:12:27 fizzie: don't finns have zeppelins 23:12:31 with their suave tech 23:12:34 Vorpal: what 23:12:35 ... 23:12:35 oh. 23:12:38 err 5 23:12:38 fizzie: shoot Vorpal 23:12:39 even 23:12:49 elliott, :P 23:12:59 anyone know a country with lax border checks? 23:13:02 ineiros, around? 23:13:02 we can have an esoteric meetup there 23:13:04 and i can bring a gun 23:13:06 and shoot Vorpal 23:14:21 elliott, what's your opinion of TinyCore? 23:14:23 elliott: you cannot have zeppelins in worlds where the nazis have lost the war, duh 23:14:36 elliott: You only need about a million pasted items before the probability of having at least one collision in there starts to get close to 50%, for a 40-bit hash. 23:14:45 Sgeo: It's not called TinyCore, for one. 23:14:53 oerjan: untrue (c.f. His Dark Materials) 23:14:59 simple time traveler axiom 23:15:04 fizzie: 48-bit, then? 23:15:12 Well, 16 million. 23:15:13 elliott: i haven't read that SO IT DOESN'T EXIST 23:15:17 how rare is clay? i don't remember seeing any on your map before this, and all i've done is walked around at random for hours 23:15:18 I guess for private use it's not too bad. 23:15:30 oklopol: Quite a lot of nearby clay has been snarfed up. 23:15:47 * Phantom_Hoover is very upset that zeppelins never took off (har har). 23:15:52 (But it is a bit on the rare side too.) 23:16:11 i don't never be in the near. 23:16:39 Clay pretty much only happens near sandy beaches. 23:16:51 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:16:54 Did I even eat breakfast today? 23:16:57 I don't think so 23:16:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:17:16 -!- elliott has joined. 23:17:20 Clay pretty much only happens near sandy beaches. <-- also in deserts 23:17:26 oerjan: you'd hate his dark materials, it's preachy-atheist :) 23:17:39 Phantom_Hoover: but i thought they were the bomb! 23:18:11 stick + coal --> burning torch ... makes sense 23:18:27 j-invariant, it's obvious! 23:18:54 And four ingots of iron and a pile of redstone dust -> compass! Also obvious! 23:19:48 A diamond inside some planks -> jukebox! Equally clear! 23:20:06 what the hell? These torches don't light 23:20:09 Clearly you mash a quarter of a bit of coal into a quarter of a stick. 23:20:13 j-invariant, is it day? 23:20:20 no it's night 23:20:36 oh youhave to right click 23:20:41 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:20:54 You have to place a torch before it starts giving out any light. Obvious! 23:21:04 to light stick, right click 23:21:12 -!- elliott has joined. 23:21:25 this game is just so cosy 23:21:54 (Though did the better-light mod add a carried-torch light source too? Maybe I am just imagining things. There is at least one handheld-torch-light mod.) 23:22:14 oerjan: But where should I write "click" to? 23:22:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:22:44 j-invariant: cosy :D 23:22:47 j-invariant: met a creeper yet? 23:22:55 fizzie: no, better light doesn't add that 23:23:05 i don't thin 23:23:23 -!- BMG has joined. 23:23:26 yes I drilled into the side of a mountain and there was a lava stream below so I went that way and then this guy jumps out of nowhere and blows up right next to me LOL 23:23:35 j-invariant: :D 23:23:39 j-invariant: did you see his face 23:23:42 j-invariant: his horrifying 23:23:44 j-invariant: horrifying face 23:24:00 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 23:24:00 -!- BMG has joined. 23:24:06 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 23:25:52 elliott, you just broke oklopol trying to get coord when you spoke 23:26:00 i apologise sincerely 23:26:02 he *just* rejoined with mcmap 23:26:43 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:27:12 -!- j-invariant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:29:33 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:29:48 -!- elliott has joined. 23:32:19 nice, gdmflexiserver has an easter egg 23:32:37 oklopol, down? 23:32:49 elliott: ^ 23:33:02 yes 23:33:04 cheater99: o...kay? 23:33:19 cheater99: btw i'm just gonna buy a superdrive 23:33:32 i've already given apple >£1k, what's £60 more, sigh 23:33:39 elliott: i thought in case you ever need to measure \pi in a rudimentary setup that only has sh and gdmflexiserver. 23:33:47 cheater99: wonderful 23:35:25 elliott: ubuntu is free, think of it as still being cheaper than windows vista.. and you get a free disk drive! 23:35:44 today i found out we've got a 10" hard drive in another room 23:36:03 it's huge and bulky and the metal casing is like 2cm thick cast iron 23:36:22 with reinforcement grid 23:36:28 it could survive an atomic blast ez 23:37:13 actually i think it might be 14" 23:38:17 http://rigaux.org/language-study/syntax-across-languages --> people here might be interested 23:38:52 -!- j-invariant has joined. 23:58:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2011-01-07: 00:04:45 -!- Behold has joined. 00:07:52 cheater99: make the fans quieter :( 00:07:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:17:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iatv18rAK-k 00:19:14 fill your house with water so that you don't have to worry about firwes? 00:19:48 Or, alternately, build with something non-flammable. 00:20:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:27:01 j-invariant: lol :D 00:27:03 j-invariant: just worry about drowning 00:30:02 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:31:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:33:05 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:34:34 oklopol: dwodwondwoind 00:34:44 me knows 00:35:29 is it possible to download minecraft worlds that people have made? 00:36:00 j-invariant: sort of. 00:36:05 people occasionally put them up 00:54:26 Margarie may have won the war, but she hasn't won the battle 00:55:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVyDDXWRs7k 00:58:10 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:02:04 elliott: are you in ubuntu now? 01:02:11 elliott: or is that in osx? 01:02:15 cheater00: lolno, why would i be, yes os x, why? 01:02:20 elliott: i know there's a fix for ubuntu :D 01:02:23 i bought a superdrive ;( 01:02:26 i know 01:02:30 it'll be ok 01:02:42 cheater00: i think it's not a thing that needs fixing, i think it's just that this thing is optimised for silence when you do nothing and then raging fans when you do 01:02:45 because of insufficient cooling otherwise 01:02:57 our society supports anything that's expendable 01:02:57 because real mac users don't play minecraft 01:03:06 nah 01:03:07 i support death 01:03:13 there's a crazy raging fans fix for ubuntu 01:03:16 and i bet for macs too 01:03:25 also what helps is one of those stands 01:03:31 just put something under it so that it has air under it 01:03:42 you know, macbook air.. works better with air amirite? 01:04:22 it's not really raging 01:04:27 just louder than i'd like :> 01:04:38 cheater00: actually i position one leg to cover the vent. 01:04:41 it quietens it slightly. 01:04:44 i have a core duo laptop which is supersilent (since i put in a new hdd) 01:04:53 the toshiba was nice and silent. 01:04:56 and i have a core 2 duo pc next to it which is inaudible 01:05:02 i have a feeling they used smaller fans in this to save space. 01:05:11 this one's some sort of crappy old advent thing that my stupid drughead flatmate left behind 01:05:18 i took it because he thought it was broken 01:05:22 erm 01:05:28 he left it because he thought it was broken, and i took it. 01:05:34 when he moved out :) 01:05:47 it was broken in that there was a virus that would reboot your pc after 5 minutes. 01:06:07 i'm surprised they even fit any fans into the thing 01:07:19 i'm gonna build that super-powerful silent pc sometime. sometime. :p 01:07:28 well it's very simple 01:07:36 cheater00: ah, you misunderstand how perfectionist I am 01:07:47 cheater00: I have spent many, many hours reading random, beyond-obscure topics on silentpcreview 01:07:50 worried about LCD whine even 01:07:50 you misunderstand how perfectionist *i* am 01:07:55 cheater00: let's put it this way 01:08:14 cheater00: if it doesn't have an expensive AMD CPU (AMDs are of course ridiculously hot), and a good graphics card, it's imperfect, BUT ALSO if it has a _single_ fan it's imperfect 01:08:21 it must be completely solid state apart from the bulk storage drive 01:08:26 why amd and not intel? 01:08:28 which will be in a quietening enclosure. 01:08:39 cheater00: don't wish to support intel's business practices any more. 01:08:46 AMDs are hot and not as fancy, but *shrug* 01:08:51 what's the wattage of an amd? 01:08:56 cheater00: higher than an intel :) 01:09:02 well let's put it this way 01:09:21 i just put my hand on the heatsink of this pc.. 01:09:31 and it's barely warm 01:09:40 it's like, "this tea is getting cold" warm 01:10:15 cheater00: you realise that even silentpcreview's work pc in the anechoic chamber used when monitoring the dBA levels of equipment and shit ... 01:10:17 cheater00: has a fan? :D 01:10:18 the loudest thing in this pc is inarguably the power supply.. 01:10:20 one single, 140mm case fan. 01:10:29 i consider even _that_ unacceptable. 01:10:34 cheater00: oh yeah, i really want a solid-state PSU too 01:10:38 but that seems unlikely 01:10:41 you misunderstood 01:10:42 I don't know of a 400W solid state one 01:10:48 do you know what microphonics are? 01:10:56 yes, yes i do 01:10:58 the enemy :) 01:11:03 cheater00: is the psu fanless? 01:11:07 yeah 01:11:08 450w 01:11:11 cheater00: omg link 01:11:16 cheater00: i have been unable to find a fanless psu of that wattag 01:11:17 e 01:11:20 cheater00: do you have a case fan? 01:12:17 www.lmgtfy.com/?q=silent+450w+psu 01:12:19 2nd link 01:12:35 and further revisions make it even quieter 01:12:40 but this switching noise that it has.. 01:12:42 it's inaudible 01:12:47 my pc has no case fans. 01:12:51 cheater00: ah, so one of the ooold ones 01:12:52 is it still sold 01:13:00 of course 01:13:04 it's a very good design 01:13:09 the site linked in that 2003 review is squatted 01:13:20 cheater00: btw i was considering a copper heatpipe + big radiator solution 01:13:20 silverstone st45nf 01:13:25 cheater00: what cpu/gpu do you have? 01:13:34 core 2 quad e8500 01:13:34 cheater00: ah. our second links differ. 01:13:39 this is why lmgtfy is bad ;) 01:13:41 and the fastest geforce i could get at the time 01:13:54 so no fans at all, right? just checking :D 01:14:00 oh there are fans 01:14:00 :D 01:14:03 but no case fans 01:14:04 cheater00: where :| 01:14:06 well 01:14:18 there's a fan between the cpu and graphic card heatsinks 01:14:24 but it's a noctua p12 01:14:29 it's not audible 01:14:29 UN 01:14:32 AC 01:14:33 FUCKING 01:14:33 CEPTABLE 01:14:37 naw 01:14:43 cheater00: i would buy a zalman totally-no-noise but they're not sold any more 01:14:43 elliott, ??? 01:14:45 just mini-atx versions 01:14:49 variable: silent pc nerdery 01:14:52 it actually does not have enough mechanical impedance to transfer any sound 01:15:01 cheater00: everything that moves sounds. 01:15:08 nope 01:15:08 things that move are the enemy. 01:15:16 MOVING IS THE ENEMY 01:15:18 you're talking to someone who knows a lot about acoustic engineering 01:15:31 cheater00: what if i want to use my computer in a vacuum, asshole 01:15:35 you know.. i make my own speakers 01:15:47 it wouldn't work in a vacuum. 01:15:51 for multiple reasons. 01:15:58 cheater00: SHUT UP 01:16:03 what if i live in an anechoic chamber 01:16:04 and am a bat 01:16:11 first of all, the electrolyte in capacitors would be instantly sucked out through the ventilation perforation 01:16:40 second of all, the heatsinks would not be able to give away the heat because they're not touching any matter 01:16:52 what if i live in an anechoic chamber 01:16:53 and am a bat 01:17:16 well, if you're a bat that's fine because bats hear supersonics 01:17:50 and fans by the fact of their design drop in acoustic coupling performance as frequency goes up 01:18:16 if you stick your ear next to the fan at a very specific angle 01:18:22 and that has to be measured with a laser 01:18:39 no wait 01:18:40 if I do that 01:18:54 then i can hear a barely audible rumble of say maybe 5 hz 01:19:09 if you did that you couldn't hear anything, because your hearing ain't good nuff 01:19:32 but in fact 01:19:50 i bet with a slightly bigger heatsink it could be possible to run this pc fanless 01:19:59 it's the graphic card that does all the heat, not the cpu 01:20:04 cheater00: the problem is that without the airflow everything breaks down :( 01:20:09 if the newest graphic cards are better with that it's nice 01:20:15 well yes 01:20:16 cheater00: hahahano 01:20:20 cheater00: graphics cards are getting hotter 01:20:27 i've got an uh 01:21:17 cheater00: anyway it's more psychological, i could _feeeel_ that fan moving 01:21:20 i need to connect a keyboard to that pc. 01:21:21 cheater00: have you looked into heatpipe solutions 01:21:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 01:22:24 cheater00: i was considering passive watercooling but realised that pumps make noise 01:22:45 it's a 9800 gtx+ 01:22:49 512 mb 01:22:54 it's the hottest running graphics card ever 01:22:59 it was the hottest of its time 01:23:00 right 01:23:07 and i put the slowest ever fan possible on it 01:23:13 i don't really need like 01:23:17 the best graphics card 01:23:33 then you could get something that can be run fanless 01:23:44 and then put a convection stack on your cpu 01:24:03 it's actually very simple, you just take a drain pipe 01:24:04 :D 01:24:07 :D 01:24:13 cheater00: i'm probably going for a scythe of similar size to http://www.crazypc.com/images/coolers/cpu/prolimatech/megahfull.jpg 01:24:21 you know convection? 01:24:24 yes. 01:24:26 i may want to have this pc horizontal 01:24:31 i don't trust things like that to hang :D 01:24:36 wrong 01:24:44 the mounting system is very good 01:24:51 but the fan works properly only when the fins are vertical 01:25:00 ffff 01:25:00 which means the whole pc has to be 01:25:06 fine 01:25:08 but i don't trust it 01:25:15 not sure if you want that scythe 01:25:20 that's not actually a scythe 01:25:21 i did everything with thermalright 01:25:22 it's a megahalem 01:25:30 i have this internal thermalright => shit mapping 01:25:33 maybe it's thermaltake i'm thinking of 01:25:42 yeah it is 01:25:44 thermaltake is shit 01:25:50 what's wrong with scythe, i like scythe 01:25:56 you use thermalright if you want things to be right 01:26:04 well, i did everything with thermalright and it worked well 01:26:11 spcr like scythe :p 01:26:12 i don't have this experience with scythe coolers 01:26:20 i have a scythe hdd enclosure which is the best ever 01:26:26 and a nightjar psu 01:26:32 but i know nothing of their coolers 01:26:34 cheater00: http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu/053/scnj3000-detail.html 01:26:44 cheater00: they're mostly of the gigantic fucking heatpipes variety :D 01:26:46 I LIKE that variety 01:26:56 yea so is thermalright 01:27:02 except thermalright also does something very useful 01:27:07 which is backplane coolers 01:27:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cMC-m0sjsM 01:27:26 which help a lot with cpus even thought you'd think they wouldn't 01:27:29 http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=33&lng=en <-- the most fans i will allow in my pc is one (1) of these 01:27:32 but every cpu gets equally hot on both sides 01:27:34 nothing else 01:27:34 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to MinecraftVideoBo. 01:27:38 so the underside catches a lot of warmth 01:27:41 NOTHING ELSE 01:27:43 and a warm air pocket happens 01:27:48 yea 01:27:50 that's what i do 01:27:58 even then 01:28:00 i would feel bad about it 01:28:02 and cry every night 01:28:05 and actually 01:28:11 noctua have just come up with a new one 01:28:14 that's bigger than the one i use 01:28:17 and hence silenter 01:28:19 whatwhat 01:28:22 yea 01:28:27 oh this one you linked 01:28:29 that's the biggest one on their products page 01:28:32 mine is a p12 not a p14 01:28:37 erm isn't the 140mm one quite old 01:28:38 and it's supersilent already 01:28:48 yeah but it didn't exist back before time 01:29:00 i don't trust myself to apply thermal paste, will be fun 01:29:06 also now they do this jaded fin thing 01:29:16 "oh i just sorta... put an icing of it on" 01:29:19 there's a special procedure you do with thermal paste 01:29:21 "the cooler is kinda wedged in the goop" 01:29:27 yeah you make a pea ball and crush it w/ the heatsink 01:29:28 i know 01:29:31 no 01:29:45 that's what spcr tells me :> 01:29:46 not one person i've spoken to actually knows their shit on how to do that 01:29:49 spcr is wrong 01:29:54 i have a better way of doing this 01:30:04 right, i trust you, mr. other random person on the internet 01:30:09 well my pc works 01:30:11 :D 01:30:11 more than the original, mr. three random people on the internet 01:30:14 and has only one fan in it 01:30:35 yeah one too many 01:30:42 d? 01:30:50 yeah well buy a weak graphics card and you can have it without 01:30:57 oklopol: probably 01:31:02 cheater00: heatpipes bitch 01:31:10 cheater00: how much RAM DO YOU HAVE EH 01:31:17 four gigabytes 01:31:18 i'd like to insert MY heatpipe in a bitch 01:31:21 cheater00: hahahahahahahahahaha 01:31:29 if you know what i meant 01:31:30 that's because i still run 32 bit windoze sometimes 01:31:35 cheater00: lol u fag 01:31:37 for audio applications 01:31:38 no u 01:31:42 32 bit windoze boots with >4 gig anyway doesn't it 01:31:44 and just ignores it 01:31:47 U 01:32:00 well back then that was what i was using most of the time 01:32:02 so no point 01:32:07 * MinecraftVideoBo has 2GB RAM in this machine 01:32:11 It's the most I ever had 01:32:15 now i do ubuntu and run vim in it 01:32:21 i could do with 2 mb of ram 01:32:23 cheater00: its funny because im getting 12 to 16 gigs because i love excess 01:32:25 I have no idea why it uses 64-bit Windos 01:32:27 WIndows 01:32:29 Windows 01:32:39 cheater00: the part list i got for bsmnt had 12 gigs, so really i just need to top him in _some_ way 01:32:45 maybe "not sounding like a jet" 01:32:48 * MinecraftVideoBo accidentally summons Bill Gates 01:32:53 what is bsmnt? 01:33:00 that guy over there ---> 01:33:02 in the username list 01:33:10 and what is bsmnt? 01:33:15 that guy over there ---> 01:33:15 in the username list 01:33:18 yeah 01:33:20 but what is it? 01:33:24 he said he wanted a new computer, i produced a list of parts out of my ass^W^Wnewegg 01:33:27 i see it, i still don't know what it is 01:33:29 surprisingly they worked first time 01:33:31 it's a person 01:33:32 you know 01:33:33 like 01:33:33 did you tell him to dd if=/dev/urandom ? 01:33:35 breathes and shits 01:33:36 and shit 01:33:39 cheater00: no he's cool 01:33:41 oh ok 01:33:41 -!- MinecraftVideoBo has changed nick to Sgeo. 01:33:44 i think he still uses that box 01:33:47 i still wonder if that kid did it 01:33:53 What's a Sgeo? 01:34:07 i kinda set myself up for a fal lthough he has an intel ssd, i7 cpu, 12 gigs of ram... 01:34:09 i can beat him on gfx card 01:34:12 he has some shitty passive thing 01:34:26 elliott: you have an intel mac 01:34:34 don't remind me? :( 01:34:35 you're on the dark side already 01:34:49 it's not my fault they're thin, fuck off 01:34:52 i am your father, elliott 01:35:02 oh god, i hope not 01:35:08 wrong 01:35:15 NOooOOOOooooooooooooooooooo11!!!! 01:35:18 brbsuicide 01:35:28 so either way 01:35:38 there's some sikrit tipz to having a quiet pc 01:35:44 that no one tells you about 01:35:47 uh huh 01:36:03 the most sikrit tip is to not have a psu in your case 01:36:12 cheater00: FUNNY i'ma violate that tip 01:36:18 things i hate that aren't sound: WIRES 01:36:20 and 01:36:20 THINGS 01:36:34 ya well ur laem 01:36:49 won't have such a silent pc then huh 01:37:12 or iow: enjoy your hair dryer 01:37:27 cheater00: or i could just put it in the case and 01:37:30 cheater00: here's the clever bit 01:37:35 cheater00: you know what i would do? 01:37:41 cheater00: i would cut off the back of my case 01:37:42 instant 01:37:42 mother 01:37:43 fuckin 01:37:45 airflow 01:37:47 ya, no 01:37:51 am i genius? i am genius? yes, i am genius 01:37:58 ya, no 01:38:00 cheater00: buy me some heatpipes 01:38:05 ya, no 01:38:12 ya no has to be my favorite phrase in Spanish 01:38:19 Even though I forgot what it means 01:38:47 haha 01:38:59 elliott: really, you don't want the psu in your computer. 01:39:08 cheater00: but it'll stare at me 01:39:17 The most silent computers are ones that don't work! 01:39:18 the silverstone is very beautiful 01:39:20 cheater00: did i mention i want an ips monitor 01:39:23 Oh, cheater00 means outside the case I assume 01:39:45 it's nice matted extruded aluminium 01:39:53 what's ips again? 01:40:24 oh is that this lcd overdrive stuff? 01:40:44 i think those overdrive ones are loud but not sure 01:41:05 elliott: research backplane coolers k 01:41:11 lcd overdrive? what? 01:41:34 yeah there's this thing that makes lcds behave like they have faster times.. 01:41:36 and die faster too 01:41:38 yeah that's stupid 01:41:47 cheater00: IPS is what the graphics"pros" use 01:41:48 basically 01:41:53 TN (normal LCDs) have uneven colour distribution 01:41:54 no matter what angle 01:41:57 oh it's the superslow lcd kind 01:41:59 colour at left corner is different to middle 01:42:03 cheater00: mmmnope 01:42:05 which you can't use for computer games 01:42:08 ya 01:42:09 lol 01:42:14 they're superthick too aren't they? 01:42:22 cheater00: 10 to 14 ms response; also, most actual LCDs have similar ACTUAL response rates 01:42:27 the "cheating" is ubiquitous 01:42:32 yeah i know 01:42:35 in non-IPS 01:42:45 cheater00: btw all iMacs and Apple Displays have been IPS for like two years now 01:42:54 you know, cooler is just one mistake away from cooker 01:42:56 admittedly nobody has yet to play a game on one :D 01:43:02 cheater00: yeah they're pretty thick, but... 01:43:05 they have bootcamp 01:43:05 TN displays suck 01:43:12 cheater00: also since TN displays are cheaper, they tend to have other shit too 01:43:13 like 01:43:14 glossy 01:43:18 stupid rounded edges hiding pixels 01:43:20 etc. etc. etc. 01:43:23 glossolalia 01:43:23 look at this: 01:43:28 http://www.scan.co.uk/products/thermalright-ifx-10-backplate-motherboard-backside-extra-cpu-cooler-%28775-am2-939%29 01:43:41 Sgeo: funnily enough that's the name of a song i like a lot 01:43:46 elliott: you know what that is 01:43:50 that's freedom, bitch 01:44:40 dude... who looks at non-newegg sites when deciding on components 01:44:56 it was the first hit 01:45:05 also scan are a very good uk shop 01:45:28 irrelevant, buying is irrelevant 01:45:32 you look at newegg when looking 01:45:34 buying never happens 01:45:35 in my experience 01:45:59 lol 01:46:13 well you seem to have some income now 01:46:17 which is a good sign 01:48:16 If elliott has more income than me, I 01:48:20 I'll be jealous 01:49:02 i make 1k/day but my dad takes it all away to spend on HATRED 01:49:06 trufax 01:49:08 sorry 01:49:09 *1m/day 01:49:10 typo 01:49:15 keys are literally right next to each other 01:50:01 lliterally literally 01:50:04 *literally 01:50:19 elliott: if you work contracts you could easily be doing 1k per day. 01:50:29 When will we have figuratively literally literally? 01:50:31 you'd probably have to move to london or reading. 01:50:32 but 1m? 01:50:37 1m yen 01:50:38 And have to say literally literally literally? 01:51:00 * Sgeo overdoses on literally 01:51:00 there is an essentially fifteen-year-old part of my brain that sees the word work, contracts, and move to london, and immediately ignores you for the next ten minutes 01:51:35 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:52:08 Google wants to replace copumpkins with gopumpkins 01:53:05 there's also the fifteen year old part of your brain that sees the word "able to buy new toys" and "able to afford lawyers that tell people i don't like to fuck off" 01:53:30 yes, word. i bet the chinese have single-words for each of those 01:53:37 cheater00: yes indeed 01:53:51 cheater00: also, i can tell people to fuck off without lawyers 01:54:00 but not always effectively 01:54:25 my email has spam filters! 01:55:44 can it filter out court orders 01:55:49 Why do I feel a sudden need to bounce off walls? 01:56:00 Just earlier, I couldn't keep my eyes open? 01:56:02 cheater00: i'm not really into the habit of getting court orders, are you? 01:56:06 :O 01:56:10 nope 01:56:21 i thought you had some sort of bs going on earlier though? 01:56:31 last summer 01:57:03 cheater00: like uh what 01:57:22 i thought you said you had to live in some sort of boarding school of sort 01:57:31 that you didn't want to go to at all but school made you go to 01:57:35 for some crazy reason 01:57:39 lol 01:58:02 probably someone else then\ 01:58:09 Sgeo: was that you? 01:58:19 Sgeo is totally crazy, it's plausible 02:00:37 -!- elliott_ has joined. 02:02:25 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:02:51 yeah 02:04:22 elliott_: i want to see that convection based cpu cooler :D 02:04:32 it would have to be at least 3 meters high :D 02:04:58 i have to like 02:04:59 go now 02:05:00 to sleep? 02:05:04 goodbye? 02:05:05 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:05:16 maybe 02:13:23 i don't get your excavation site, you are just blowing stuff up down there at random :D 02:13:37 you could just do tnt columns 02:14:03 RANDOM FOR THE RANDOM GOD 02:14:05 XOM 02:14:21 or preferably, just do row by row, but i guess that's boring 02:18:11 what's it called if you're attracted to slime? 02:19:13 japs use a lot of this fake sperm, so what you have is basically people having sex in slime 02:20:40 i tried to ggl but all i get is "pedophiles are slime and should be killed" 02:23:47 the pedophile blob, coming to a cinema near you 02:24:23 blobophile 02:24:49 not that i even know what people who like sperm are called, although i have a guess 02:26:41 they call that "bukkake" 02:27:09 ? 02:27:16 call what bukkake 02:27:46 the slime thing? they do, but it's completely different, because you'll usually have a pretty mundane sex scene under all the slim 02:27:47 e 02:27:54 unlike when there's actual wanking involved 02:28:03 japs do get physical then, ofc, as well, but less 02:28:22 american bukkake is much more formal 02:28:25 huh 02:30:07 and there's less euro and it's less clearly themed, or maybe i just notice differences easier because i'm from here, and therefore understand the european bukkake taste better 02:30:17 i'm not an expert on bukkake really, but i do dabble 02:30:35 wtf are you on now 02:30:43 nothing 02:31:11 did you like the pun 02:32:06 i think you've been attacked by the pedophile blob as a child 02:32:23 :D 02:34:08 well, german bukkake is very easy to spot of course 02:40:02 * oerjan suddenly realizes that "bukkake" could mean "stomach cake" in norwegian 02:41:29 hahaha. 02:43:21 buk = stomach? that's weir 02:43:23 d 02:45:11 would've been better if i'd said dabble in it, didn't realize that works for both 02:45:13 crazy norwegs 02:47:54 apparently it's more precisely "abdomen" 02:48:12 oh well that's better isn't it 02:48:32 er... 02:49:42 i mean doesn't it make more sense 02:50:12 think about it 02:51:23 my confusion is probably due the fact that no:mage can mean _either_ stomach or abdomen 02:51:30 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:52:02 i don't know what the finnish words mean, i think both means both 02:52:43 we have a word that loosely translates as "stomach bag" 02:53:04 which is used with both words, so maybe that's what you're supposed to call the container 02:53:15 i mean bag is used with both 02:54:24 um, we have "magesekk", which splits similarly and means only stomach 02:54:52 "mahaskki" 02:55:13 (that's not the finnish word, skki = sack) 02:55:16 you probably borrowed at least the parts of that :D 02:55:29 (laukku = bag) 02:55:43 and yeah, we may have 03:00:24 i just said that because of mage = maha, since english didn't seem to have a friend for it 03:00:30 stomach i guess 03:03:56 gre:stoma => gre:stomakhos => lat:stomachus => old french:stomaque, estomac => middle english:stomach 03:04:05 so definitely the same 03:05:45 um that does not show a link to "mage" 03:05:47 dunno what i could've found that wouldn't have convinced me tho 03:05:58 machus vs maha 03:06:04 pronounced macha 03:06:08 erm 03:06:18 ...if a german pronounces it 03:06:50 doesn't show a direct link to mage, no 03:07:03 but those look like friends 03:07:05 to me 03:07:59 oh old english had maga 03:08:28 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maga#Etymology_2 03:09:13 that's slightly closer, maybe 03:09:34 how do you pronounce that 03:09:44 maygah? 03:10:28 um i wasn't really referring to the english, but to the etymology, which is obviously the same as no:mage 03:10:42 also, stomach is not related 03:11:35 well g ~ h isn't that weird, so maha is then not related to stomach either 03:11:36 it's stoma + chos, the greek is a derivation with a suffix 03:11:48 oh indeed 03:12:13 i read that, but i was already convinced enough not to read the rest 03:12:17 i mean with brain 03:12:31 erm 03:12:34 it looks like stoma may be related to no:stemme (voice) 03:12:41 although why does that mean maga couldn't be from that? 03:12:50 i mean 03:13:21 why couldn't the etymology be that sto dropped out for some reason :P 03:13:36 IN THEORY 03:14:08 oklopol: because the addition of -chos happened _in_ greek, long after the word had been inherited to the other sister language branches 03:14:55 hmm yeah i suppose greek isn't exactly a dead language 03:15:39 hmm 03:16:32 still not 100% convinced by that proof, although you are surely right 03:17:09 well indeed it's not entirely impossible, you'd have to be a linguist and look at many languages to see how it was inherited 03:17:41 well it's already clear from the list i gave that sto is not easy to dtop 03:17:47 *drop 03:18:03 so why the fuck would a hundred year old language like norwegian suddenly drop it 03:18:27 um it would have be dropped _long_ before that :D 03:18:31 *have to be 03:18:54 my point exactly, maybe 03:19:04 i'm not sure how a sentence like that can have a point 03:19:17 there are cognates of mage in celtic and balto-slavic languages, according to that link 03:19:56 i have work tomorrow, kinda pointless even going because everyone will have left when i'd get there 03:20:11 assuming i wanna sleep 03:20:52 mhm 03:24:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:05:38 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:15:19 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:19:38 -!- azaq23 has joined. 04:23:44 “The problem with Internet quotations is that many are not genuine.” - Abraham Lincoln 04:24:32 "Abraham Lincoln never said that." - Oscar Wilde 04:24:51 The REAL two hardest problems in CS: Cache Invalidation, Naming Things, and Off by One Errors. 04:25:06 ...yes. 04:25:33 when did #esoteric become #uncyclopedia 04:25:55 Presumably variable is writing an Oscar Wilde language. 04:26:15 but was that off by one error caused by a cache invalidation? 04:26:34 coppro: OK THAT'S ALL MY FAULT 04:27:15 i recall i saw a fake lincoln quote being teared to pieces on reddit a few weeks ago (i think) 04:27:48 pikhq: ... yes 04:28:15 it was something that it was almost plausible for him to have said, about corporations getting too much power. and it _was_ from the 19th century, but not by him. 04:28:24 * coppro considers writing HowTo:Play Mao 04:28:34 iirc. 04:29:03 coppro: and then a concise guide to playing mornington crescent, i assume? 04:29:33 I MEAN SINCE THE OFFICIAL RULES ARE SO LARGE 04:29:47 oerjan: maybe 04:30:01 the Mao guide would mostly be a guy complaining about how he doesn't get it 04:30:23 inspired by a real-life guy who just didn't get it 04:30:24 at all 04:30:35 remotely 04:30:37 variable: i _really_ think that quip above would have been better if you had named something in it. then it could have been three-way self-referential. 04:30:47 sorry, two-way. 04:31:08 we were happy when he left partway through and we could recover half the deck 04:31:18 oerjan, it wasn't mine :-( 04:31:21 (we were playing with two decks!) 04:31:24 I wish it were 04:31:59 variable: nihil novi sub soli 04:32:17 *sole 04:34:40 nothing new under the sun? 04:34:53 yes 04:35:28 another nice self-referential quotation 04:36:43 *torn 04:36:54 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:53:15 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:04:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:08:19 -!- sftp has joined. 05:47:55 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:12:53 -!- cal153 has joined. 06:17:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:24:45 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:33:28 No text to send 06:37:39 Yes text to send 06:44:04 Or text to send 06:53:02 Did they complete the next level in my game? 07:01:55 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:10:36 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:29:16 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 07:31:25 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:37:58 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 07:39:55 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:46:08 Any answers? 07:51:14 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 07:53:43 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:23 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 08:09:05 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:11:22 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:12:42 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 09:06:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 09:13:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 09:21:19 Is this a real channel? 09:21:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:41:43 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 09:42:22 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:59:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:22:27 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 10:24:49 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:31:20 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 10:34:08 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:09:41 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:11:43 -!- pingveno has joined. 11:19:07 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:48:41 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:49:17 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:57:52 Ah, nifty... potaroo.net is now connectable for me without hacks... 12:24:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:53:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:09:53 * Sgeo hopes he doesn't break anything by installing these things I downloaded I think they're supposed to be installed in order but I don't know what order I didn't download them in order 13:15:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:22:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:23:56 * Sgeo goes to play with Virtual PC 13:30:40 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 13:33:44 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:55:06 Fun fact: There are no checks as to what version of Windows 7 is in use. 13:57:38 ...there is a check 13:57:57 It checks when you try to use it 13:58:02 Long after installation 14:02:31 Dear Microsoft: What made you geniuses think that the best thing to do was put the XP Mode HD on the comp regardless of whether it's an acceptable host? 14:03:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:05:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:06:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:25:53 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:28:16 -!- cheater00 has joined. 14:46:48 * Sgeo tries Parallels 14:46:59 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what the limitation in the trial is 14:47:04 * Sgeo guesses that it's time limited 14:47:14 I'll flip a nut if it is, but yeah 14:49:17 It unnerves me when emulation software goes to install in Program Files (x86) 14:56:27 Uh 14:56:35 So, it's no a time-based limtation 14:56:41 Instead... 14:56:53 OOOHHH 14:56:55 n/m 14:58:03 It's a 30-day trial 15:01:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:02:37 Ok, I like Parallels 15:08:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:08:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:10:50 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 15:21:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:28:58 -!- j-invariant has joined. 15:31:35 ...ok then 15:32:26 how is Sgeo pronounced 15:33:27 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/sgeo.wav 15:35:14 How to get Windows 98 to install in Parallels: Tell Parallels that the Guest OS is not Windows 98 15:35:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:38:16 I'd love Parallels much more if it WORKED 15:38:21 Bloody piece of shist 15:38:34 wwhat are you supposed to do while you wait for the sun to come up? 15:50:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:55:12 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:56:34 -!- variable has joined. 15:59:09 One good thing about VirtualBox: It actually works 16:00:22 I found these virtualizer programs all took too much RAM 16:09:00 -!- cheater- has joined. 16:09:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:24:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:29:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:34:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:48:50 Maybe VMWare Server was breaking other random shit in the other emulators 16:54:30 Huh, apparently it was 16:54:32 * Sgeo WTFs 16:55:17 -!- elliott has joined. 16:57:51 Or maybe it wasn't 16:57:54 * Sgeo goes insane 16:59:35 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:59:36 "goes" 16:59:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:00:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:01:37 elliott: what are you supposed to do in your cave while waiting for the sun to come up? 17:01:57 j-invariant: try making a house/castle, not a cave; but, basically; 17:02:15 j-invariant: mining; building (if you have a lit-and-encased-by-wall build project you can stay), 17:02:19 j-invariant: crafting 17:02:33 j-invariant: you can even go out with a sword and enough armour 17:03:00 also.. every time I die I lose all my rare stuff like coal :( 17:03:09 I tried putting it all in my cave but it disappeard 17:03:34 j-invariant: make chests, duh 17:03:56 store things in chest, put all your valuable shit in chests before doingsomething dangerous 17:03:57 *chests 17:03:59 *doing something 17:04:04 iI dono't know if its cheating or not to read the wiki 17:04:27 j-invariant: Naw. 17:04:30 j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Crafting is basically essential. 17:04:41 j-invariant: Even the people who play without spoilers get told how to craft certain things by friends 17:05:00 cool chest is easy to make! 17:05:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:05:15 j-invariant: There's really only a small finite number of things you can "spoil", and knowing them is pretty much essential to play the game well, so it's probably not worth worrying about. 17:05:31 Hello everyone 17:05:35 hi 17:06:24 Phantom_Hoover: now _here's_ a question, what do you do if you spawn in a desert biome 17:06:40 You delete the world and start again. 17:06:46 CORRECT 17:06:47 are you still talking about minecraft 17:06:49 what is a biome? 17:06:49 yes 17:06:54 Or find your way to some trees. 17:06:57 j-invariant: biome is a region of area of a certain type 17:07:02 j-invariant: there's desert, forest, ... 17:07:03 j-invariant, different terrain and flora. 17:07:05 j-invariant: snow... 17:07:39 j-invariant: rain forest, swamp, seasonal forest, forest, savanna, woods, taiga, desert, plains, tundra 17:07:44 also the Nether but it hardly counts 17:08:00 j-invariant: that last but one line is the full list 17:08:04 j-invariant, significantly, some biomes have no accessible tree. 17:08:09 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Biomes :P 17:08:09 *trees 17:08:31 And since such basic things as mining require wood, you're screwed. 17:08:36 I dont' like cutting up trees because I worry about them all disappearing 17:09:22 j-invariant, breaking leaves gets you saplings. 17:09:22 j-invariant: um they drop saplings 17:09:28 j-invariant: the leaves decay automatically 17:09:31 the ones that don't, hit them 17:09:32 Plant the saplings, and a new tree will eventually grow. 17:09:34 j-invariant: then pick up the little tree saplings 17:09:40 I planted sapling but they just stay there 17:09:42 plant one in the same place with right click 17:09:49 j-invariant: you have to wait for day and stuff 17:09:54 just leave them, they'll grow 17:10:02 j-invariant: there has to be three free blocks above 17:10:03 and they need light 17:10:13 j-invariant: best idea is to plant one in the same place as the tree you destroyed 17:10:55 You can make a little indoor arboretum if you are very paranoid. 17:11:00 As well as a farm. 17:12:12 I FOUND THE BEST MOUNTAIN EVER 17:13:06 -!- Behold has joined. 17:13:06 elliott, better than Mt. Hoover? 17:13:15 Fuck yes. In single player. 17:13:28 Screenshot? 17:14:57 Sure. Second. 17:16:06 Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eA 17:16:08 Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eQ 17:16:10 Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eg 17:16:15 Phantom_Hoover: These photos were taken *on top of a tall mountain*. 17:16:17 In a snow biome. 17:16:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:16:20 The arch stops snow falling inside. 17:16:29 There are also a lot of trees nearby. 17:16:34 wiw cool 17:17:01 j-invariant, you clearly haven't seen the glory of Mt. Hoover. 17:17:17 no I havenot7 17:17:59 elliott, weirdness: I have been nominated to the RationalWiki Foundation's Board of Trustees. 17:18:04 Not that that means very much. 17:18:20 why does that exist 17:18:30 j-invariant: are you gonna come on our server? 17:18:31 :p 17:20:02 yeah 17:20:15 i hve to go out first 17:22:17 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:22:35 1: Post "HALP IVE BEEN MEGA HACKED" to stack overflow 2: Infinite karma problem stackexachange? 17:22:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:22:56 server fault* 17:23:14 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:23:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:25:08 Phantom_Hoover: oh god monster noises on Peaceful 17:27:55 So far, VMware Workstation is working 17:28:02 Wish I had more than a trial key though 17:28:13 Oh god Sgeo is liveblogging again 17:28:45 Sgeo, one word: pirate. 17:29:03 Phantom_Hoover, Four words: I'm trying and failing 17:32:15 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf. 17:32:17 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523. 17:33:06 ais523, EXPLAIN YOURSELF 17:33:31 he's sometimes scarf. 17:35:25 elliott, is reading Dr McNinja a bad sign? 17:35:59 Is it? 17:36:08 It's a sign that you are reading a webcomic 17:36:42 You might turn into me! 17:37:12 Phantom_Hoover: Pretty sure Sgeo doesn't read Achewood, it would be a good way to distance yourself from him. 17:37:28 Sgeo, please tell me Dr McNinja isn't something you read. 17:37:30 HELPFUL ANTI-SGEO ADVICE DISPENSED DAILY 17:37:43 elliott, surely Sgeo reads Achewood! 17:37:46 Phantom_Hoover, I've glanced at it, but haven't gotten into it 17:37:50 He's a furry, after all! 17:38:01 Phantom_Hoover: But Achewood is actually amusing and interesting, see 17:38:09 Well, for some definitions 17:38:49 Well, I dropped Freefall to avoid Sgeo, and that's as far as I'll go. 17:39:06 * Sgeo assumes you're joking 17:39:29 You'd seriously stop reading a webcomic just because I read it? 17:39:54 That and I was losing patience with it. 17:40:12 Ok, that makes more sense 17:40:19 I've decided I'll catch up every few months, since the story moves at a snail's pace. 17:41:13 Sgeo, I want your full webcomic list, though. 17:44:19 xkcd, Freefall, Dilbert [ok, not a webcomic], User Friendly on occasion not that it updates anymore, Order of the Stick, Erfworld, Bonobo Conspiracy, Superosity, 1/0 [dead], Triangle & Robert [dead], Jesus & Mo, atheistcartoons, Subnormality, The Non-Adventures of Wonderella, Basic Instructions, Cyanide & Happiness, SMBC 17:44:27 Cowbirds in Love 17:49:04 xkcd? Why? 17:50:59 Because Sgeo has no taste. 17:51:23 1/0 and T&R are not so much "dead" as completed... 17:51:40 Oh fuck fuck fuck you read Subnormality why stop it I <3 subnormality you're not allowed to 17:52:55 oh bonobo conspiracy is written by the guy who wrote the "what colour are your bits?" thing... who puts stock in astrology :D 17:53:03 * elliott wonders if that'll make Sgeo vomit and stop reading or something 17:53:49 elliott, I'm vaguely aware of that already 17:57:55 Phantom_Hoover: btw, oklopol has been mining in the excavation pits :) 17:58:20 elliott, any news re the TNT kit? 17:58:29 None. 17:58:33 That I know of. 18:14:52 A large fraction of the MC community hate people who play it on peaceful, apparently. 18:14:56 I despair. 18:15:32 Hate howso. 18:18:57 Dislike for not playing it The Right Way, I assume. 18:18:58 http://mwunsch.tumblr.com/post/1179254565/notchdrones 18:19:01 Urgh. 18:19:34 There totally needs to be a survival horror version of MC. 18:19:55 With old mines which are crawling with monsters due to a single, minor breach. 18:20:00 *abandoned 18:20:34 Phantom_Hoover: That guy using \alpha is iiiiiritating 18:20:37 *rr 18:20:41 Extremely so. 18:22:51 Dear M. Wunsch: I don't care how many hours he works in a day, I care about him acting like an idiot, I care about him being a jerk to people who have worked insane amounts with his stupid, obfuscated code to produce amazing mods, I care about him not testing the product he's _sold_ for even FIVE SECONDS before pushing it — beta is no excuse — and I care about how he does shit like badmouth git with no justification when he is far 18:22:51 less of an engineer than anyone who's worked on git. 18:23:36 I care that he's selling a game with potential that he's wasting by doing stupid shit and not thinking; he is clearly good enough at coding in theory to be able to do this properly, he just _isn't_. And I care that the raving hordes of fanboys lynch you for even suggesting any of this might be true. 18:23:40 fuck him. 18:23:44 (him=Wunsch) 18:24:32 Phantom_Hoover: [[And here is Notch, who has mastered the art of computer science to express a creative ambition, making a game on his own time and finding success because of it. We should all be “sitting on his cock”…figuratively, of course.]] 18:24:46 That... I don't care whether that's figurative or not. 18:25:07 "If I were Notch, and I poured all of my creative ambition and energy into this project and was called a “lazy cunt” by some nothing, I would immediately cease working on the project. I would send out an update patch that bombs the game and makes it unplayable. And I would take the money and run. And I would never again bless this planet with my creativity and thoughtfulness." 18:25:14 tl;dr not only is my skin so thick as to be non-existent, but I am a gigantic asshole. 18:25:21 Who.... who wrote that. 18:25:35 Phantom_Hoover: M. Wunsch in that post you linked. 18:25:45 He longs to sit on Notch's cock ... figuratively, of course. 18:28:12 elliott, I demand that you let me copy that rant to M. Wunsch to TV Tropes' Just Bugs Me page for MC. 18:28:35 Phantom_Hoover: Sure. But omit the fuck him part. 18:28:39 Phantom_Hoover: Also don't attribute me. :p 18:30:18 18:30:31 um 18:32:04 YAY PARALLELS HATES WINDOWS 98 18:35:07 elliott, FWIW, I added it. 18:35:16 link 18:35:56 Sec, repairing the formatting. 18:36:33 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/JustBugsMe/Minecraft 18:37:51 [[nothing wrong with rars, but whatever.]] — The author of hMod, when someone asked him for a zipped file. 18:38:30 http://arc.opera.com/ping.html 18:39:43 Phantom_Hoover: "can I have a tarball" "ew, pervert" 18:40:19 Hey, hMod is being superseded. 18:40:30 welcome to N days go 18:40:31 ago 18:40:31 Phantom_Hoover, saw that. Bucket? 18:40:39 Bukkit 18:41:20 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:42:13 Sgeo: Buy the damn game and do drudge work on Cube. 18:42:24 elliott, FWIW, who was Notch a jerk to? 18:43:00 Phantom_Hoover: All mod developers. 18:43:08 Phantom_Hoover: That "frown upon" bullshit. 18:43:21 And the passive-agressiveish "very grey area legally" from the same sentence. 18:43:27 What "frown up on" bullshit? 18:43:37 See his ancient blog post. 18:44:03 Phantom_Hoover: "First of all, most “mods” that add new features to the game are in a very gray area legally, and I frown upon them." 18:44:07 Ah, right. 18:44:10 Bastard. 18:44:36 tl;dr "These '''mods''' -- I use scare quotes despite the fact that they are, in fact, mods -- are something I COULD, hypothetically, sue all your fucking asses over. Also, I hate you." 18:44:45 Okay, so that's actually longer than the non-tl;dr :D 18:44:47 I can't wait until he open-sources the code and good programmers fix it. 18:44:59 Phantom_Hoover: I, also, cannot wait for infinity. 18:45:05 It is something rather difficult to wait for. 18:45:07 Yesyesyes 18:45:10 *I, too, 18:45:11 It is so awesome. 18:45:20 A free MMO with _proper_ gameplay. 18:45:23 And space! 18:45:28 And Newtonian combat! 18:45:46 Phantom_Hoover: Wait what. 18:45:53 Define it. 18:45:54 Oh, right, 18:45:57 Not Infinity. 18:46:02 ? 18:46:06 Oh. 18:46:12 (For which I cannot actually wait.) 18:46:15 HOW EMBARRASSING 18:46:41 I WANT A QUANTUM MMO 18:47:18 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82789 18:47:30 A joke, or TRUTH? 18:51:39 Wait, is Notch actually against *redstone circuits* 18:52:26 I'm sure he isn't, which kind of ruins things. 18:52:33 Phantom_Hoover: Umm...no. :P 18:52:55 The point of that kind of parody is to take reality and twist it, rather than making stuff up. 18:55:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:56:59 elliott, have you set up that SSP server? 18:57:22 Phantom_Hoover: No. I either need to upgrade my VPS or ... my internet connection :P 18:57:44 Anything fun going on on ineiros' server? 18:58:02 "4:29PM The screens are now an undulating blue cube field. And man -- are they ever undulating." 18:58:11 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I'm TNTing ineiros and everyone he holds dear. 18:58:14 (Not really. Except, yes, really.) 18:58:19 [[I was skeptical at first, but this is a much better game than Fallout 3. Heaps of crashes and console freeze bugs.]] — Notch on Fallout 3. 18:58:27 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 18:59:33 Fallout 3: better than Fallout 3. 18:59:38 (ITYYM New Vegas.) 18:59:39 *ITYM 18:59:49 [[4:39PM Oh, Zoll's on stage now! He's... holding a remote? Oh, he's sitting on a couch and watching... a video of his mother being pregnant? Oh boy. 18:59:49 4:40PM "My parents were totally stoked when I finally arrived... Grandma said I must have been the most documented kid ever."]] — document of Samsung keynote 19:00:14 Phantom_Hoover: OMG. FALLOUT NEW VEGAS WAS DEVELOPED BY OBSIDIAN ENTERTAINMENT 19:00:15 CONSPIRACY 19:00:36 Oh, yes. 19:01:40 Phantom_Hoover: Speaking of that, if you haven't seen this you must: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKIkw3LIoQ 19:02:23 God that's creepy. 19:02:29 Phantom_Hoover: It gets better. 19:03:03 Phantom_Hoover: The great thing is, the first time it just looks like your vision is all messed up, and then it KEEPS GOING 19:03:44 AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH 19:03:50 BOB-WALK 19:03:56 That has to be the scariest thing in a game, like, ever. 19:04:15 Any complete of my game, yet? 19:04:20 Nope. 19:04:26 Or any part of it? 19:04:36 Wasn't j-invariant playing this game? Did they get past that level? 19:05:04 Don't know. 19:05:56 I think they are not on this IRC at this time? 19:06:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:06:57 But yes, the irony of Notch complaining about someone else's buggy game is delightful. 19:07:15 http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/06/live-from-samsungs-ces-2011-keynote/?sort=oldest&refresh=0 Oh my god, this is the most amazing thing ever. 19:07:21 Or at least second most amazing. 19:08:44 * oerjan now wonders what the first is 19:08:45 What's the most amazing? 19:09:17 Phantom_Hoover: Chocolate unicorns. 19:09:49 I have only myself to blame. 19:09:55 Well, and oerjan. 19:10:03 What. 19:10:17 i've been reading reddit too much, i feel like adding bacon to that 19:10:19 5:03PM Demoing the change from ESPN to CNN. This is really cool stuff. 19:10:20 5:04PM Cool in the sense that it's happening on the Galaxy Tab, not cool in the sense that he changed a TV channel. 19:11:43 If I get sound working in this VM, I'll finally be able to play a kid's game that I haven't played in years1 19:11:44 ! 19:11:59 Sgeo: And then, finally, you can become a child once more. 19:14:02 What the hell *is* this Cloud thing people keep going on about? 19:15:05 Phantom_Hoover: probably has something to do with global warming 19:15:12 Oh, right. 19:15:19 steam is a greenhouse gas, after all 19:15:42 Well, cloud seeding is one of the proposed methods of geoengineering 19:15:56 Although it's unclear how one would store data in a cloud. 19:16:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:16:44 [[The letter A just exploded from serif to sans-serif. It's hard to explain that any better.]] 19:17:22 This guy is amazing. 19:17:28 * Phantom_Hoover → food 19:17:50 Phantom_Hoover: well i read they managed to store data in _bacteria_, so why not 19:22:37 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:23:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:29:57 oerjan, storing data in bacteria is easy! 19:30:11 They already _have_ a built-in storage medium! 19:30:22 true 19:30:28 A linear, quaternary one at that. 19:30:52 maybe we should ask some homeopaths, i hear they are experts at storing data in water 19:31:21 or the sociopaths 19:31:22 DATA IN BLOOD 19:32:54 fizzie: Do you still have that symbolic-mode parsing code? I feel like converting it to Haskell. 19:34:40 there is no such thing as sociopaths. stop believing that nonsense or i will make _sure_ you regret it. 19:35:29 elliott, symbolic-mode parsing code? 19:35:31 oerjan: Now now, be more classy; a decent sociopath would go "I see.", smile genuinely, convince you into going home with him, and disembowel you. 19:35:34 Ooh, that rhymes. 19:35:42 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. As in o+x,g=wr. 19:35:46 o=g,g+a. 19:35:56 Phantom_Hoover: Most commonly e.g. "+x" or "a+w". 19:36:02 chmod's argument, basically, when not octal. 19:36:09 I CAN'T HERE YOU I AM RAPPING ABOUT SYMBOLIC MODE PARSING CODE IN MY HEAD 19:36:41 elliott: that's a ridiculous suggestion, i don't want to have to clean up that stuff 19:37:10 oerjan: Wow. Lazy sociopathy is surprisingly hilarious. 19:37:28 "I would kill you for no reason at all, but I'd probably have to hide your body and that sounds like a lot of work." 19:37:51 -!- j-invariant has joined. 19:38:15 "5:29PM Zoll remembers going to an amusement park with his dad for the first time. He wishes his dad had taken pictures in 3D, because the pictures they took don't adequately capture the memory. Oh, Zoll." 19:38:25 [[5:29PM BK: "Last year we launched the world's first Full HD 3D TV! That's a lot of initials."]] 19:38:53 elliott: while i _hope_ i have a more solid moral than that, that still feels eerily close to how i feel about annoying people sometimes 19:39:05 oerjan: i... please don't kill me? 19:39:14 oerjan: or... anyone 19:39:27 oh you're nowhere near _that_ annoying. 19:39:54 Sgeo, RUN 19:39:57 oerjan: OR ANYONE 19:40:07 elliott: not nearly as bad as it could be though - could be specified as a LED LCD TV, and they could throw in SCART and HDMI and VGA and DVI as well... 19:40:09 zzo38: hi 19:40:24 [[5:35PM BK just gave Katzenerg a pair of prescription 3D glasses. "These are so light -- maybe I'll just wear these all the time instead of my real glasses." Sure you will, Jeff. Sure you will.]] 19:40:39 Is there an explicit R^2 → R bijection? 19:40:44 Phantom_Hoover, I don't seem to annoy oerjan 19:40:49 Phantom_Hoover: plenty 19:40:49 Just you and elliott 19:40:53 elliott: maybe that would let you see the world in 3D though? 19:40:57 Wow, Sgeo has no idea how annoying he is. 19:40:59 j-invariant: Do you figure out the game yet? Remember you can block the door so that it won't close all the way, and then you get get out and go back in to the dragons room. 19:41:03 elliott, tell me one 19:41:04 olsner: :D 19:41:11 And then if you win, the other dragon will give you back the ammunition and give you the key. 19:41:19 zzo38: I could not defeat the dragons 19:41:19 Phantom_Hoover: represent as infinite stream of base 2, intermingle 19:41:23 well 19:41:25 elliott: I mean, that would be *AWESOME* 19:41:28 yeah 19:41:29 olsner: :D 19:41:32 olsner: super HD 19:41:40 [[5:39PM Zoll's back! "Nature rules!" Oh, Zoll. Zolly Zoll Zoll.]] 19:41:45 super HD *3D*, no less 19:41:55 elliott, well, there is that. 19:42:12 [[5:43PM "If you are to be successful, this child must be an inspiration to us all... a child of the 21st century. We must think of him every time we create a product." Can we never think of Zoll again, though? Is that also an option?]] 19:42:17 j-invariant: I give you a hint. Block the door while it is closing, and it won't close. And then you can go north, and then south and you can destroy the piece of the door. The dragon can be removed in the same way. 19:42:27 Phantom_Hoover: you need to patch that up a bit because of the 0.111... = 1.000... issue, but that's essentially constructive, yes 19:42:48 Turing machines accept recursively enumerable languages. ---> what are "recursively enumerable languages" 19:42:50 Hey, y'know what was a cool idea? Sierpiński numbers! 19:43:07 variable, the type of languages Turing machines accept. 19:43:17 Phantom_Hoover, no 19:43:20 :-} 19:43:23 variable: languages that you can enumerate, recursively 19:43:27 variable, quite clearly. 19:43:35 variable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursively_enumerable_language 19:43:40 A recursively enumerable language is a formal language for which there exists a Turing machine (or other computable function) which will enumerate all valid strings of the language. Note that, if the language is infinite, the enumerating algorithm provided can be chosen so that it avoids repetitions, since we can test whether the string produced for number n is "already" produced for a number which is less than n. If it already is pro 19:43:40 duced, use the output for input n+1 instead (recursively), but again, test whether it is "new". 19:43:45 A recursively enumerable language is a formal language for which there exists a Turing machine (or other computable function) that will halt and accept when presented with any string in the language as input but may either halt and reject or loop forever when presented with a string not in the language. Contrast this to recursive languages, which require that the Turing machine halts in all cases. 19:44:52 Phantom_Hoover, I don't seem to annoy oerjan <-- actually their constant picking on you annoys me more than you do. although you _do_ need to do something about your father issues. (so do i.) 19:45:24 zzo38: I could destroy the door but the dragons still kill me 19:45:42 oerjan: I tried to be nice to him and felt pity for his issues! but it was too much! too much! 19:45:46 oerjan, if you go and tell Sgeo's father that he's a complete cretin I will be so happy. 19:45:56 oerjan: so i've given up :( 19:45:56 I AM NOT INTERPRETING THAT ANY OTHER WAY 19:46:26 i'll go tell oerjan's father the same! 19:46:43 j-invariant: OK. Remember dragons cannot move diagonally. You can stand next to the north edge so the dragons step near there (you can move faster than dragons can). And now you can go back to the other board north and then east/west and then south. 19:47:57 Also dragons are allowed to move in lava, but it is difficult to see due to same color is red. 19:48:11 elliott: eek 19:48:13 oh I get it! 19:48:17 oerjan: on the plane now 19:48:26 I'll tell elliott's father something. 19:48:45 Phantom_Hoover: Try "fuck you". 19:49:03 j-invariant: Someone experienced with MegaZeux might or might not know this. But it can be learnable by the codes for MegaZeux, too. 19:49:34 elliott, I'm sorry, your quota of people whom I should murder or kidnap has been exhausted. 19:49:46 Phantom_Hoover: "Fuck you", not murder or kidnap. 19:50:02 elliott, just putting that out there. 19:50:22 Phantom_Hoover: Murder/kidnap would be a waste of time. 19:51:00 elliott, also, I tend to avoid swearing in general. 19:51:11 Phantom_Hoover: It is, in this case, well, well worth it. 19:51:26 (This is in order that I have something to say when I rm -rf ~ * by accident.) 19:51:43 zzo38: I win .. this time! 19:51:57 Phantom_Hoover: I go for compound curses when that happens. 19:52:11 j-invariant: Yes. Now you have to figure out which one is the real key. (You might create a save file at this point, in case you make mistake) 19:52:22 Phantom_Hoover: Normal sentence: "...fucking...". rm -rf: "FUCKING PISS-SHITTING TWATBASKET" 19:52:32 (OK, so more likely "Fuckfuchklfcucklik just deleted my home directory aaarhgiudfhgjkgljlkfhjd") 19:52:35 I did find the key 19:53:20 j-invariant: Good! Now you can ask the other dragon for the other key and they will give you back your ammunition, too. 19:53:34 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/IdiotProgramming 19:53:46 Everyone comment! 19:54:33 [[Also from the programming side, libraries developed by the Department Of Redundancy Department where you have to lapse into Pokemon Speak to write any meaningful code. For instance, take this line from Debian's version of awesome's rc.lua: 19:54:34 { "Debian", debian.menu.Debian_menu.Debian } 19:54:34 To be clear, "menu" is the only member of "debian", and "Debian_menu" is the only member of "debian.menu".]] 19:54:38 That is... not actually all that bad. 19:54:47 Obviously "debian" is reserved for Debian-related stuff to avoid namespace clashing. 19:54:59 debian.menu is reserved for {Debian menu}-related things. 19:55:09 And the {Debian menu} contains the root item {Debian}, I believe, which is the actual Debian menu. 19:55:18 I'd make it debian.menu.Debian, but still. 19:56:18 Phantom_Hoover: Thing that irritates me about TV Trope: Linking every reference to MemeticMutation. 19:56:26 I REALISE WHAT IT IS, I'M NOT AN IDIOT, I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE REFERENCING 19:56:29 ALSO REFERENCES AREN'T MEMES 19:56:39 Yes, indeed. 20:02:33 main :: IO () 20:02:33 main = do 20:02:33 args <- getArgs 20:02:34 case args of 20:02:36 ("-n":args') -> putStr (unwords args') 20:02:38 _ -> putStrLn (unwords args) 20:02:40 hey oerjan 20:02:42 GOLF 20:08:53 main = do args <- getArgs; putStr . unwords $ case args of ("-n":args') -> args' ; _ -> args ++ ["\n"] -- I'm not sure I consider this an improvement... 20:10:16 oerjan: erm does that not put a space before the newline 20:10:24 oh right 20:10:28 > unwords ["poop","\n"] 20:10:30 "poop \n" 20:10:46 j-invariant: Now did you figure out the next part of this game? 20:10:47 updog 20:10:47 What's updog? 20:10:56 when did we get lambdabot? 20:11:22 coppro, when I convinced Cale to let us have it permanently with my dashing good looks and wit. 20:11:30 elliott: that means unwords cannot be combined :( 20:11:32 Read: I asked him. 20:11:41 oerjan: foreversad 20:11:43 *forever sad 20:11:45 zzo38: no this part is crazy! I will take a while to figure it out 20:11:49 oerjan: you can 20:11:52 oerjan: just append \n to the last :D 20:12:00 oerjan: (make sure this handles no args) 20:12:05 oh. hm. 20:12:24 elliott: which sounds like it's unlikely to be shorter 20:12:39 oerjan: BUT ZANIER 20:12:46 j-invariant: After trying for a while if you cannot figure out, you can ask questions about things you do not know about the working of MegaZeux if you need to (such as how specific objects work and so on). 20:12:56 thanks zzo38 20:13:09 oerjan: hm note that the case can be 20:13:22 case args of 20:13:22 ("-n":args') -> putStr (unwords args') 20:13:22 args' -> putStrLn (unwords args') 20:13:25 i.e. rhs is the same 20:13:27 but i don't think this helps 20:13:50 no, because you still cannot combine the args', not being in the same scope 20:14:07 oh hm 20:14:08 oerjan: :D 20:14:25 oh wait rhs isn't even the same there 20:14:37 oerjan: we could have "helper f xs = f (unwords xs)" 20:19:00 main = do args <- getArgs; putStr . uncurry ((++) . unwords) $ case args of ("-n":args') -> (args',"") ; _ -> (args,"\n") 20:19:04 (not tested) 20:19:34 oerjan: you are a bad person? 20:19:36 I think you are a bad person 20:19:40 :D 20:19:54 oerjan: now make it point-free 20:20:24 oerjan: main=do a<-getArgs;putStr.uncurry((++).unwords)$case a of("-n":b)->(b,"");_->(a,"\n") 20:20:26 my small contribution 20:20:28 point-free-ing case statements is not precisely nice 20:20:41 oerjan: psht 20:21:08 main :: IO () 20:21:08 main = eachFile ((B.putStr =<<) . B.hGetContents) =<< getArgs 20:21:14 oerjan: do you think my cat implementation (pictured) is too readable? 20:21:40 * oerjan didn't even recall eachFile existed 20:22:36 @hoogle hInteract 20:22:36 No results found 20:23:03 google tells me System.IO.Utils has one 20:23:17 oerjan: i wrote it :D 20:23:27 oh 20:23:27 eachFile :: (Handle -> IO ()) -> [String] -> IO () 20:23:27 eachFile f [] = f stdin 20:23:27 eachFile f xs = mapM_ doFile xs 20:23:28 where doFile "-" = f stdin 20:23:30 doFile fn = withFile fn ReadMode f 20:23:32 in Utilities.hs 20:23:48 oerjan: I think I should probably split ((B.putStr =<<) . B.hGetContents) back into being named cat, though 20:25:53 that's B.hGetContents >>> B.putStr, i think 20:26:14 or >=> 20:26:21 :t (>=>) 20:26:22 forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c 20:26:48 :t (<=<) 20:26:49 forall b (m :: * -> *) c a. (Monad m) => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c 20:28:31 oerjan: so many fuckin arrows yo 20:28:42 @src <=> 20:28:42 Source not found. The more you drive -- the dumber you get. 20:28:44 @src <=< 20:28:44 Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. 20:28:47 Maybe, what should be have in TeXnicard, is a parser that can compile a Inform7-like code into a C code. So that you can use the cards in a computer game as well. 20:28:48 oops 20:28:53 @source <=< 20:28:53 <=< not available 20:28:59 @source >=> 20:29:00 >=> not available 20:29:06 @source (>=>) 20:29:06 (>=>) not available 20:29:12 whatever 20:29:30 @help @source 20:29:30 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 20:29:36 @help source 20:29:37 source . Lookup the url of fptools libraries 20:29:43 bah 20:29:58 @hoogle >=> 20:29:59 Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c 20:30:04 @more 20:30:18 oh wait it does say the module 20:30:44 * oerjan hasn't played with lambdabot for ages 20:30:45 @src (>=>) 20:30:45 Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. 20:30:48 @help src 20:30:48 src . Display the implementation of a standard function 20:30:53 oerjan: well @source would not have worked, any way :) 20:30:54 *anyway 20:31:02 indeed 20:31:37 @src map 20:31:38 map _ [] = [] 20:31:38 map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs 20:31:48 >=> and <=< were added a couple years ago or so 20:32:01 @src fix 20:32:01 fix f = let x = f x in x 20:32:12 Strange... 20:32:19 what's strange 20:32:37 Why the let? 20:32:41 I think it uses the Report's Prelude code. 20:32:44 Phantom_Hoover: for sharing 20:32:49 Phantom_Hoover: fix f = f (fix f) eats memory 20:32:53 (without a sufficiently smart compiler) 20:32:55 Phantom_Hoover: to ensure the value is not reevaluated 20:32:58 whereas "let x = f x" is more like a circular list 20:33:05 except it's not a list, you know what i mean :) 20:33:06 Surely GHC is a Sufficiently Smart Compiler? 20:33:45 Phantom_Hoover: except sometimes the _other_ choice also eats memory, so ghc does not always try to be smarter than you 20:34:37 oerjan: at least, until it gets {-# LANGUAGE MindReading #-} 20:34:43 not long, at this rate 20:34:44 well maybe not in the case of fix 20:36:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:36:12 Phantom_Hoover: however some of that code is shared with other compilers than ghc, or at least used to be when there were others 20:36:48 ghc may add rules pragmas for its own optimizations 20:38:05 some of the code may be inherited from the haskell 98 report 20:38:12 (not fix though) 20:40:49 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:41:42 There were other compilers? 20:42:17 Yeah! Hugs! wait. 20:42:23 also there /is/ 20:42:28 *are* rather 20:42:38 e.g. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Yhc 20:42:42 also nhc is an old one i think 20:44:59 What kind of card games have circular text boxes? 20:46:58 @hoogle (>=>0 20:46:59 Parse error: 20:46:59 --count=20 (>=>0 20:46:59 ^ 20:46:59 @hoogle (>=>) 20:47:00 Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c 21:01:04 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=110095#p1626297 21:02:14 That is crazily awesome. 21:02:14 'm addicted 21:02:27 Phantom_Hoover: Erm, are we looking at the same thing. 21:02:42 [[[img]Minecraft%20lava[/img] 21:02:42 I don't know whether this picture works, but it demonstrates the demonic power of above land lava!]] 21:02:45 That's what I link to. 21:02:49 nooga: buy it, do drudge work on Cube on server. 21:02:53 *linked 21:03:12 Ah, OK/ 21:05:48 eachFileInteract f = eachFile (\h -> B.putStr =<< (f <$> B.hGetContents h)) 21:05:56 oerjan: POINTFREE IT :D 21:09:41 eachFile (B.putStr . f <=< B.hGetContents) 21:10:04 or wait 21:10:27 yes 21:10:50 oerjan: THAT'S NOT POINT-FREE 21:10:59 oh right 21:11:06 that's as pretty as it can be 21:11:06 enjoy ugly :D 21:11:48 eachFileInteract = eachFile . (<=< B.hGetContents) . (B.putStr .) 21:12:01 oerjan: good! now inline all the functions 21:12:44 NO 21:18:05 Vorpal: i need a posix standards opinion 21:22:16 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=110095&sid=a30c290f6bd796ded3e2a348a40cf3c9&start=30#p1635944 21:24:20 elliott, hm? 21:24:37 Vorpal: Is it OK if, e.g., rev(1) accepts only valid UTF-8? 21:24:55 elliott, is rev even POSIX? 21:25:11 Vorpal: mentally substitute some other text processing filter, then 21:25:33 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:hsybox ehird$ echo 'häagen-dazs' | ./rev 21:25:33 szad-negaäh 21:25:33 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:hsybox ehird$ ./rev /dev/random 21:25:35 rev: /dev/random: hGetContents: invalid argument (Illegal byte sequence) 21:25:37 elliott, that tree is much better than me. 21:25:42 Phantom_Hoover: You are inferior. 21:25:46 My life doesn't have a purpose any more. 21:25:47 elliott, such as sed or cut? hm 21:26:21 Vorpal: Bonus question -- is it even valid to do the Right Thing on valid UTF-8, and do it dumbly on invalid text? Or does POSIX actually require that you mangle non-ASCII text? 21:26:28 elliott, does POSIX say anything about it? (the utf-8 stuff) 21:26:35 that's what i'm askin'! 21:27:12 I have idea. TeXnicard could ignore pages in the DVI file that have negative page numbers. This way you can check for whatsits in a box by \shipout\lastbox and similar things to that. 21:27:34 elliott, I know posix from an user perspective, not from an implementer perspective. And my guess is that it is locale dependent 21:27:51 elliott, you check posix yourself, my computer is too heavily loaded to open such a huge pdf 21:28:07 I don't wanna dig through N pages. (Also, don't you just use the HTML version? It has a nicer UI.) 21:28:22 elliott, is there one for POSIX.1-2008? 21:28:22 It seems to me that things like rev(1) would probably be required by POSIX to have no friggin' clue what Unicode is, and just recognize char 0x0A 21:28:55 Vorpal: yes. 21:28:57 Gregor, except as far as I can tell from some quick checks rev(1) comes from BSD and is not specced by posix 21:29:04 Ah :P 21:29:06 "things like" 21:29:12 yeah 21:29:21 Vorpal: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ 21:29:24 Vorpal: POSIX 2008. 21:29:40 elliott, well, back when I downloaded 2008 it was like 2 weeks after being ratified. And there was no html version then 21:29:53 Vorpal: boosters have apparently been fixed in the source code repository according to heresy 21:29:57 enjoy redoing your minecart tracks 21:30:02 elliott, fixed as in? 21:30:08 as in they don't work any more. 21:30:32 elliott, how reliable is this source? 21:30:37 a very obvious definition of "fixed" 21:30:42 Like, TWO people on Minecraft forums! http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=128232 21:31:13 elliott, well could just be a rather mediocre hoax 21:31:25 Extremely mediocre 21:31:45 quite 21:32:53 elliott, played with craftbook on local test server btw. It's fun. Stuff like elevators with signs where you right click on sign to go up/down and bridges and what not 21:33:03 elliott, it's a nice hmod plugin 21:33:24 haven't tried it's minecart stuff but it does have some booster blocks and such 21:35:43 Craftbook? 21:36:01 Phantom_Hoover, a hmod plugin that seems rather nice 21:36:45 elliott, also I decided that the castle was not viable even when scaled down. Considering if I might do it with worldedit or similar. If I make the inner fort in obsidian it would be about 60000 obsidian or so I think. Which would be awesome but utterly infeasible without help from such a mod. 21:36:58 heck it would be a pain even in other materials 21:37:12 oh and that would be just hollow, rouge approximation 21:37:37 Vorpal: Why not just make it manually, you have like 9348579845793845798345365 resources... 21:38:07 ha! /me spawned OFF a beach 21:38:25 elliott, not on my local test server no. And even with faster-render and region save single player is still unplayably slow. 21:38:34 (the server I can run on another computer on the lan) 21:38:47 (one with good cpu but sucky intel graphics) 21:39:06 huh spawned above sea level 21:39:11 I think C ought to have a #try #catch that works at *compile time* (not at run time). 21:39:13 elliott, oh? 21:39:17 zzo38: Doing what. 21:39:33 elliott: Catching compiler errors and warnings. 21:39:37 :D 21:39:37 ... 21:39:49 actually that sounds quite interesting (also rather mad) 21:40:44 elliott, hey seeing "uncaught syntax error" would be epic :P 21:41:02 or uncaught syntax exception I guess 21:41:39 incidentally, wtf mcedit is hard to use. 21:42:15 elliott, yes it is. And for me it is slow too 21:42:27 Um. Question. 21:42:34 Cobblestone doesn't come naturally, does it. 21:42:42 Oh, a dungeon. 21:42:43 But er. 21:42:44 elliott, it does. Lava + water. Also in dungeons 21:42:46 Non-mossy cobblestone? 21:42:54 did i mention that sand fell to reveal this :D 21:42:56 elliott, dungeons have non-mossy as well 21:43:12 haha... the dungeon spawned underneath sand 21:43:14 and the sand fell when i spawned 21:43:17 Ugh, where's my thumb drive? 21:43:24 elliott, that sort of stuff happens. 21:43:34 usually not right next to spawn though 21:43:37 Sgeo, why do you ask *us* that? 21:44:39 wtf, dungeon without a chest :( 21:45:13 elliott, sure it isn't hidden under the sand? 21:45:27 elliott, cleared away all the sand to the cobble walls? 21:45:31 yes 21:45:35 underneath the remaining sand is just stone 21:45:35 Does gravel have a use? 21:45:48 elliott, hm. 21:45:50 elliott, weird 21:46:02 Sgeo, certainly. For draining. 21:46:15 Hmm, how? 21:46:20 pretty much same use as sand (except you can't smelt it for anything) 21:46:40 * Phantom_Hoover decides that he will torrent as much Red Dwarf as he can get his hands on. 21:46:51 Sgeo, drop it in, it will sink down. Easy to remove using the usual torch trick (see wiki if you don't know it) 21:48:34 elliott, craftbook has "redstone ICs" too. Including stuff like light level detector, 3-bit prng, water sensor, and what not. Oh and you can make redstone controlled torches. And pumpkins. So you can make light switches :) 21:48:42 I know of the prng. 21:48:55 I wonder why pumpkins/torches aren't redstoned. 21:49:12 elliott, pikhq, one of the two of you please pick a torrent from http://torrentz.eu/search?f=red+Dwarf 21:49:29 elliott, oh and there are some ICs that require admin privs it seems. Such as "set time of day". I just combined a light detector and that to reset to day as soon as dusk comes. Waiting to see if it will work. 21:50:04 Phantom_Hoover: They all look like shitty xvid. 21:50:08 Series 9 is not necessary here. 21:50:12 elliott, :( 21:50:24 Phantom_Hoover: Look for the DVD ISOs and transcode yourself. 21:50:41 pikhq: I think that might ... not be what he wants. But yeah, agreed :P 21:50:56 elliott, yay, it resets to just-after-sunrise about 2 seconds after the light level starts to decrease during dusk. Hm that is actually kind of useful when building stuff outdoors. 21:51:07 I'm not looking for ultra-high quality here. 21:51:11 Vorpal: Now turn monsters on. 21:51:14 Phantom_Hoover: Then download anything. 21:51:17 elliott, hah :P 21:51:28 Phantom_Hoover: If it's not h.264 it's a waste of disk space. 21:51:49 pikhq: Oh, stop being a zealot. 21:51:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:52:08 elliott, maybe. Maybe not. It has health of and worldedit on. So it is very much a creative testing server :P 21:52:10 pikhq, well, if there aren't any h.264 torrents which won't take until the heat death of the universe to download, I'm fine with wasting disk space. 21:52:22 Phantom_Hoover: http://torrentz.eu/e9e838463c428d6e169fdf9c4a0858bb5fc71cd4 21:52:26 Phantom_Hoover: Go for that. 21:52:33 Phantom_Hoover: Just disable season 8 or whatever. 21:52:36 elliott: I'm not even being a zealot here! 21:52:45 It's the biggest one with enough seeders to download well. 21:52:49 Biggest as in file size. 21:52:50 elliott, naw, season 9 is the optional one. 21:53:00 Phantom_Hoover: Er, right. 21:53:23 elliott: Especially since most Xvid stuff is downscaled, and it's *all* at what would be, for h.264, an *insanely* high bitrate. 21:53:39 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 21:53:47 pikhq: Yes, but sourcing ISOs is nearly impossible. 21:53:57 elliott, also if you don't like the bridge in it you can make toggleable areas. Like you build something. Mark it with worldedit (craftbook and worldedit have the same author), then use a save area command. Then you can make redstone control this, replacing it with empty air or with another saved area. To switch between them. You can make quite fancy bridges that way. 21:53:59 pikhq, OK, but turning my nose up at it is not something I'm going to do if there aren't any other options. 21:54:01 Okay, true. 21:54:15 Phantom_Hoover: Also, you do realise that there isn't any season 9? 21:54:18 Though there were a lot of Red Dwarf PAL ISOs there... 21:54:39 Phantom_Hoover: The Back to Earth three-parter is sometimes referred to as season 9 for god-knows-what-reason. 21:54:40 pikhq: ORLY? 21:54:41 I saw none. 21:55:01 elliott, yeah, that sets off my crap detectors so I'll leave it for now. 21:55:04 elliott: Sort by size, look at the torrents that are about 4 gig. 21:55:12 Phantom_Hoover: Season 8 is also pretty bad, I gather. 21:55:28 pikhq: http://torrentz.eu/searchS?q=red+dwarf 21:55:36 pikhq: The top one there is 2 gigs of xvid. 21:55:43 Er, wait, 20 gigs. 21:56:03 pikhq: OK, all I see is remastered ones and a few others. 21:56:16 Certainly no reliable way to get all of them without stupid remastering. OR even with. 21:56:27 Also: Unseeded. 21:56:38 I wish I wasn't so twitchy about torrents. 21:56:38 Ah, fuck, they are unseeded. 21:56:47 Phantom_Hoover: "Twitchy"? 21:56:50 WHY DO PEOPLE STILL USE XVID. IT SUCKS. 21:57:04 elliott, I get paranoid if it doesn't start downloading quickly. 21:57:19 Phantom_Hoover: Fill in trackers from torrentz. Forget it exists for five hours. Come back. 21:59:31 Is it stupid to wish there was some kind of sequencing operator for torrents? 22:00:02 Phantom_Hoover: It's called pause and resume. 22:00:08 Would it be impossible to prioritise early files for download? 22:00:20 Phantom_Hoover: You can do that manually. 22:00:30 Phantom_Hoover: Go into properties, files, set the first ones to high priority. 22:00:34 *first few ones 22:00:47 Vorpal: Opinion: Just about every block should react to a redstone current. Also, redstone currents should be able to move blocks somehow. 22:00:59 That would be 90% of the way to letting you make a dig-o-matic bot. 22:01:36 elliott, hah 22:01:42 NOT A JOKE 22:02:17 Phantom_Hoover: "Whats the texture pack" -- in reply to someone using the default texture pack. 22:02:28 elliott, but presumably it'd need some finite resource to power it? 22:02:30 elliott, I just imagined a blocky variant of one of those huge digging machines you see on pics sometimes. Forgot the name of it. Started with B iirc. 22:02:54 Phantom_Hoover: Finite resource: sure, time. Minecart perpetual motion machines already exist anyway :P 22:02:56 Like, you'd have to make a turbine generator and attach it to a furnace. 22:03:24 Phantom_Hoover: I was about to say that you should be able to, like, burn a "deactivated redstone torch" item in a furnace, and it'd become a redstone source. 22:03:27 elliott, not if boosters are fixed 22:03:31 elliott, then they don't 22:03:32 (With normal redstone torches being removed.) 22:03:46 Vorpal: Boatloops then. 22:03:46 My idea is BETTER 22:03:50 elliott, oh true 22:04:01 Phantom_Hoover: I don't get yours, would you just put coal in a furnace and no items? 22:04:03 Phantom_Hoover, yes I agree your idea is better 22:04:05 You have a turbine block which can be crafter. 22:04:08 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:04:10 *crafter 22:04:11 snow on top of a pumpkin :D 22:04:11 Hi :-) 22:04:16 *crafted 22:04:21 impomatic, hello 22:04:22 What happened to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net ? Has it moved? 22:04:28 elliott, quite common 22:04:30 Phantom_Hoover: But there's no fluid involved. >_> 22:04:33 yay gold 22:04:36 impomatic: it is, as always, at esolangs.org; voxelperfect expired 22:04:54 Phantom_Hoover: You can s/deactivated redstone torch/anything/ in my idea. 22:04:55 you people haven't spelunked much have ya 22:04:59 You then have some kind of pipe-based thing, and a heat exchanger item. 22:05:01 oklopol: gold is useless 22:05:02 all the caves near cube are unlooked-at 22:05:02 Quite a few links on the esolang wiki to voxelperfect addresses. 22:05:07 Phantom_Hoover, nice 22:05:09 elliott: that's the point 22:05:10 Run pipes from furnace to turbine. 22:05:12 Phantom_Hoover: The point is that furnacing an item would make the furnace act as a redstone torch. 22:05:19 Put heat exchanger in furnace. 22:05:23 Light furnace. 22:05:24 With redstone torches being removed. 22:05:52 Phantom_Hoover: Ideally, there'd be some way to "push" blocks into furnaces with some kind of machine, so the miner could power itself :) (if it found those blocks) 22:06:01 elliott, removing them would be a PITA. You could no longer make inverters. Or any logic. 22:06:09 Vorpal: Why not? 22:06:12 Well, yes, but this way you can also use hydroelectric power. Although water flow would have to be made finite or somesuch. 22:06:15 Phantom_Hoover: Presumably you'd just fuel up a stack of redstone torches and it'd use them. 22:06:25 elliott, inverters rely on redstone torches. 22:06:30 Weird, exposed stone outside (a lot of it). 22:06:34 As do all logic gates. 22:06:36 elliott, well you called your a source. That means it always generate, no? 22:06:40 Phantom_Hoover: Meh, you can easily build a constant flow. 22:06:43 Also, your idea is good too. 22:06:43 elliott, unlike redstone torches 22:06:44 Just route the furnace-torch to two places. 22:06:55 Vorpal: It acts exactly like a redstone torch when burning. 22:07:00 Also, furnaces mesh nicely with my uranium idea. 22:07:06 Phantom_Hoover: YES. 22:07:09 elliott, how would you place it on the side of a block then? 22:07:17 Nuclear-powered autominers! 22:07:23 elliott, because that is what makes logic work 22:07:34 Vorpal: Dunno yet. 22:07:39 Phantom_Hoover: 1 uranium burns to produce 64 toxic wastes. 22:07:57 elliott, but it burns for 20 real-time days. 22:08:09 Phantom_Hoover: No. :p The point is that it takes ages to smelt. 22:08:18 Phantom_Hoover: So given enough coal it'd run forever. 22:08:24 Sort of. 22:08:29 Phantom_Hoover: Toxic wastes in a furnace make it corrode, or something, so you have to pick them up, but if you hold them for too long you start losing health gradually. 22:08:31 So you have to dump them. 22:08:40 But they solidify water into, I dunno, obsidian. 22:08:49 Make glass decay, trees to die. Etc. 22:08:50 The solution? 22:08:54 Why, throwing it into lava, of course. 22:09:01 I wasn't thinking of having uranium burnable by itself, FWIW. 22:09:06 *Make grass decay, 22:09:12 Phantom_Hoover: Should uranium be the smelted item or the fuel? 22:09:33 You'd smelt uranium ore into uranium blocks, both of which would cause gradual and persistent health damage. 22:09:37 elliott, you plan on writing a mod to do this? 22:09:42 Vorpal: Fuck no. 22:09:48 I'm fantasising, like Sgeo but more awesome. 22:10:04 Then you craft the blocks into a core by surrounding them with iron, and use that as a fuel. 22:10:07 elliott, less awesome. I think Phantom_Hoover's suggestion was a lot better 22:10:17 Vorpal: um his and mine suggestions are working off each others 22:10:24 *my 22:10:27 elliott, well the turbine one I meant 22:10:31 When a core is exhausted, you get nuclear waste. 22:10:39 Vorpal: whatever 22:10:40 Phantom_Hoover: I approve. 22:11:16 Phantom_Hoover: So, what do things do when hit by a current. 22:11:41 Phantom_Hoover: Ooh. Maybe lanterns _are_ a good idea. 22:11:47 Phantom_Hoover: Torches expire, and lanterns need a current to run. 22:11:54 Phantom_Hoover: So you'd end up mining to keep your house's main generator running. 22:11:58 elliott, yep. 22:12:25 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:12:47 The autominer would presumably be crafted. 22:12:58 Phantom_Hoover: No no no, I was meaning constructing your own. 22:13:18 Phantom_Hoover: As in, logic gates for... logic, and using the advanced circuitry's interactions with blocks to actually move a mining-vehicle along a track. 22:13:26 Yes, this would be huge. 22:13:48 What role does redstone play here? 22:13:58 Does it still act as the primary current carrier? 22:14:23 Phantom_Hoover: Presumably. 22:14:48 Phantom_Hoover: Maybe we should call it something else, considering it'd probably end up totally different. 22:14:50 Phantom_Hoover: Bluestone? 22:14:57 But yes, this would be an extremely fun thing to add. 22:15:14 FWIW, a more elegant method than redstone wiring would be necessary. 22:15:22 Phantom_Hoover: Obviously minecarts would interact with bluestone. Ooh, I know. 22:15:44 Phantom_Hoover: If you put a bluestone current into a minecart track, it pushes any cart on it forward at X speed. 22:16:05 How would wiring work? 22:16:07 Phantom_Hoover: So you can make a booster-style system by having a generator, and just having it follow the track, occasionally splitting into "further along the track" and "rightwards to boost the track". 22:16:14 Phantom_Hoover: COMPLICATEDLY, I don't wanna think about wiring :P 22:16:24 how do I tell if a file exists in Haskell ? 22:16:34 How about you make a wire-carrying block. 22:16:44 * variable found doesFileExist ... 22:16:59 Right-clicking with bluestone lets you run more cables through. 22:17:03 variable: 22:17:04 22:16 elliott: @hoogle FilePath -> IO Bool 22:17:04 22:16 lambdabot: System.Directory doesDirectoryExist :: FilePath -> IO Bool 22:17:05 22:16 lambdabot: System.Directory doesFileExist :: FilePath -> IO Bool 22:17:07 22:16 lambdabot: System.Console.Editline.Readline readHistory :: FilePath -> IO Bool 22:17:10 Phantom_Hoover: MAYBE, DO NOT WANT TO THINK, LEAST FUN PART OF THIS 22:17:31 thanks 22:18:01 variable: @hoogle is your friend :-) 22:18:51 I always feel misanthropically bitter when I get download rates a tenth of my seeding rates on a torrent. 22:19:06 ME TOO 22:19:10 *TOO. 22:19:10 hehe 22:19:57 Phantom_Hoover: You lay some bluestone on the top of some obsidian, and then on the right of it. Catch: The right of it is immersed in lava. 22:20:05 Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me this works and you can send currents to lava to do awesome things. 22:20:39 elliott, well... 22:20:54 It would be nice to have proper water and lava manipulation. 22:21:21 Phantom_Hoover: Maybe the lava should travel backwards as fire along the circuit :D 22:21:35 elliott, naaa. 22:21:36 That would let you hook up an automated-burner; just flick a switch and burn whatever's on the other end. 22:21:40 Phantom_Hoover: OH FINE. 22:21:47 Make it damage the player, though. 22:22:04 And make water conductive, because chemistry is boring. 22:22:29 Phantom_Hoover: I'm talking about when a current hits a block, though (think how TNT behaves now). 22:22:33 WHOOOOOPS 22:22:35 Obviously a current hitting a lava block should do SOMETHING fun. 22:22:50 elliott, set fire to it? 22:23:16 Phantom_Hoover: Lava blocks are sort of already fire. 22:23:20 Minecraft-physicsy. 22:24:19 ineiros: did you know your pit is just next to a huge cave system... only have to break a few blocks to get to your staircase, not telling you how i know tho 22:25:28 :D 22:26:08 cobblestone burns SLOOOOOW 22:27:37 oklopol, I should point out that we can get pretty thorough pictures of underground areas with mcmap 22:27:47 oklopol: cobblestone burns? 22:27:50 Liberal destruction is not necessary. 22:27:52 oh smelts right 22:28:06 -!- impomatic has left (?). 22:32:56 Phantom_Hoover: if by that you mean i should be more careful, then yes, i certainly try to avoid stuff like this, i just didn't realize the cave went under the fucking mountain 22:33:16 -!- azaq23 has joined. 22:33:18 yeah burns 22:34:16 I think smelting stone should produce obsidian. 22:34:45 but you could only do it by lava bucket, and it'd take one whole bucket 22:34:49 burns 1000 min iirc 22:35:10 maybe it was seconds, but anyway 22:35:19 forever 22:35:59 ineiros must have gotten pretty pissed, i keep timing out 22:37:30 oklopol: 1000s, yeah 22:37:36 i... forgot to take the stone out, and picked the stove 22:37:39 :D 22:38:06 and the coal, mined about a hundred of that stuff, now i have 20 something 22:38:22 fucking hell 22:38:43 oklopol, really? 22:38:49 really what 22:38:56 Coal is so common the rest of us leave it alone. 22:39:12 well you need one coal like every 5 seconds 22:39:15 when spelunking 22:39:21 well i mean i do 22:39:26 Feel free to get some from Mt. Hoover or the ROU; my supplies are enough for me. 22:39:38 i put a torch on every square 22:39:41 sometimes two 22:40:02 but anyway yeah, it's common, but i don't have a box full of it yet 22:40:09 because i just started mining 22:40:13 oklopol: lame, i mine every block in a tunnel i go in, fill it with lava, then cover it with glass 22:40:19 best lighting system for spelunking imo 22:40:20 you have something like one stack there or what? 22:41:16 or a spare big box 22:41:59 oklopol: did you know that if you destroy a chest without using a pick, just your hands, it keeps the items inside and you can store it in your inventory? 22:42:16 oklopol: so you can store like 36 chests with items in your inventory 22:42:18 really useful 22:42:29 huh? really? 22:42:47 that is very useful, if it's true 22:43:01 oklopol: yep 22:43:21 maybe i won't even need a base then 22:43:35 oklopol: nomad :P 22:44:21 so what about a box, can you store a box full of stuff in a box? 22:44:34 because i could just carry a castle around then. 22:44:52 "here come's oklopol with a bag full of a fucking 64x64x64 diamond castle" 22:44:55 *comes 22:45:11 mc is making me swear 22:45:29 oklopol: hmm i guess you could actually 22:45:33 i mean, it's just breaking the box that has the items in 22:45:45 oklopol: but getting an item out of 10 nested boxes might be a bitch :D 22:46:31 yeah like i'd ever actually *use* the stuff i'm carrying 22:48:31 elliott, I've tested that in the past. 22:48:42 please tell me it works 22:48:43 Breaking a chest drops all items inside. 22:48:46 FUCK YOU PH 22:48:49 I EVEN ASKED YOU IN /MSG NOT TO TELL 22:48:51 :( 22:48:55 i was going to keep that up for days 22:49:00 fuuuuuck youuuuu 22:49:06 i would've just tried after this tho 22:49:07 You said "DON'T TELL HIM" 22:49:10 With no context. 22:49:17 Phantom_Hoover: A POX UPON YOU 22:49:22 I checked here, and I didn't associate the two at all. 22:49:24 well it was kinda obvious he was lying 22:49:31 anyhow 22:49:41 I thought you were telling me not to tell David Braben he was a dick 22:50:49 xD 22:53:45 -!- cheater99 has joined. 22:54:23 Phantom_Hoover: Wow, there are people who don't understand why people would not like InvEdit much. 22:55:05 People tend not to be very tolerant of people who enjoy different forms of play to them. 22:55:45 invedit = ability to put stuff in your inventory? 22:55:55 Phantom_Hoover: Even I dislike InvEdit to a degree... i.e., I'm not going to think of much of a gigantic superstructure if it was built entirely with InvEdit. 22:55:59 'd materials. 22:56:10 oklopol: lets you put whatever you want in your inventory and change various random shit like getting infinite health, tool health, etc. 22:56:28 elliott, but we have infinite player and tool health. 22:56:36 Or at least we have the former and want the latter. 22:56:53 i just want bots 22:56:54 Phantom_Hoover: Yesyesyes, but we can't just say //giveme 5 diamond blocks and 1000 obsidian 22:56:59 oklopol: AUTOMINER 22:57:25 what is that, i have no way to guess 22:57:44 or are you naming a game 22:57:50 elliott, things like that Enterprise would be impressive if they had been built by hand at all. 22:58:02 Even with inventory editing, 22:58:10 Phantom_Hoover: Eh, sure. Still. 22:58:14 Actually, that's the whole point of Creative mode. 22:58:18 "OMG I MADE A HUGE CASTLE" "but didn't mine a block to make it"... meh. 22:58:29 oklopol: autominer is me and Phantom_Hoover's hypothetical machine built with bluestone 22:58:35 where bluestone is a hypothetical circuit system far better than redstone 22:58:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:58:48 powerful enough to build an automatic mining tool with that can even power itself (assuming it finds the right ore) 22:58:59 it would, however, be gigantic :D 22:59:14 you'd probably want one central computer and underground wires leading to all the places you want to mine 22:59:20 rather than making multiple ones 22:59:27 well it was kinda obvious he was lying <-- well, with all they've been speaking about notch being a lousy programmer... although such a cheat would probably be a high priority to fix. 22:59:27 yeah i'm not saying you can't build an identicle in mc 22:59:36 just that you can't make a nice one 23:00:09 oklopol: wut 23:00:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:00:46 oerjan: yeah, but i figured it was a multiplayer specific feature no one mentioned to me, because no one else actually needs boxes 23:00:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:00:59 elliott: identicle was defined in a conversation a few months ago here 23:01:06 hm hm i vaguely recall it 23:01:09 .D 23:01:10 :D 23:01:20 10.12.01:13:29:43 elliott: let's talk about identicles instead 23:01:29 10.12.01:12:48:07 elliott, the principle is identicle. 23:01:31 indeed that is the principle 23:01:33 well in this case, something that is able to destroy everything 23:01:36 oklopol: few months ago = december 23:01:42 it ... felt like it was ages ago though, what 23:01:52 elliott: yeah i don't really experience time quite as linearly as most people 23:02:00 oklopol: you could do that with bluestone kinda 23:02:09 what does bluestone do 23:02:14 oklopol: you know what redstone does? 23:02:14 redstone + movement? 23:02:17 that, but much more advanced 23:02:17 somehow 23:02:25 okay 23:02:27 oklopol: basically, it involves redesigning 1/4th of the whole game :D 23:02:30 but it'd be so much cooler 23:02:31 i know what redstone does, but haven't really used it much 23:02:37 because i find it bleh 23:02:49 you could basically make a rabid auto-miner that fuels itself, except while normally you'd make it only work on a cave and only mine useful stuff 23:02:54 you could make one that just eats everything 23:03:00 and assuming it gets enough fuel to keep it going... 23:03:20 you won't without the recursive boxing 23:03:24 i mean 23:03:33 you won't get positive prob in the limit with fixed inv size 23:03:55 oklopol: it would just throw them into a lava pit 23:04:00 or get rid of them some other way 23:04:31 get rid of what 23:04:39 oklopol: the blocks it mines? 23:04:40 or what do you mean 23:04:51 hmm actually 23:05:16 oklopol: the idea is basically: mine everything; stuff that can be used as fuel goes in the furnace-power-generator; everything else gets destroyed 23:05:19 i just realized fixed inventory size doesn't matter because you can just leave blocks in stacks or something, until you've proven you have enough later on or something 23:05:32 eventually the whole world would just be, like, bluestone circuits 23:05:38 or actually just bedrock with this hovering death-machine in the sky 23:05:43 oh hmm 23:05:44 since it'd mine the blocks that it puts bluestone on eventually 23:05:48 which would cause it to fall 23:05:50 right you actually do need fuel 23:06:00 oklopol: yeah in this case there'd be no redstone torches 23:06:05 so then what i said earlier: eventually it'll stop 23:06:07 you'd have to burn a certain item in a furnace and that'd generate current 23:06:12 oklopol: sure, but the point is, 23:06:19 oklopol: whenever it mines fuel, it uses it to fuel itself 23:06:20 fungot, 23:06:21 Phantom_Hoover: ok, sometimes the info to the pascalites, release v, level 1.2. 23:06:31 oklopol: and it'd have multiple redundant furnaces to keep it going 23:06:46 oklopol: sure if you had a GIGANTIC area with no useful fuels... but then you could just double the initial furnaces and try again :> 23:06:47 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 23:07:12 elliott: can it build more furnaces or something? 23:07:15 i mean 23:07:25 the point is, if it only has a fixed amount of storage for excess fuel 23:07:33 then the probability of stopping is 1 23:07:36 oklopol: the world is finite, you recall. 23:07:40 oh true 23:07:46 although i suppose you are working in a hypothetical infinite universe :) 23:07:50 yes 23:07:57 mathematically more interesting 23:07:58 oklopol: it could build more furnaces, sure, if it got the materials 23:08:11 otherwise i could just say there's positive prob for the world being empty 23:08:14 oklopol: and the probability of getting the requisite cobbles for building a furnace before it dies is, like, 1, according to the minecraft rng 23:08:43 oklopol: note that this death machine would have to be VERY complicated and would probably take up more space than the alu or cpu :) 23:08:53 since not only does it have to mine, but it has to plan its mining so that it leaves enough tracks for _it_ to go on 23:09:06 well, if it can build arbitrarily large amounts of furnaces, maybe you can manage it, at least then it's not trivial that you can't. 23:09:09 and also it has to bring the materials back, decide what to do with them, build more furnaces, move them into place, dispose of waste from uranium fuel, etc. 23:09:40 sure, but that's just engineering ;) 23:09:53 any monkey with a phd can do it 23:09:56 elliott, FWIW, nuclear bombs are the other use for uranium. 23:10:01 Phantom__Hoover: oh joy :D 23:10:41 Craft uranium, dynamite and iron into a bomb, which is then detonatable by a bluestone charge. 23:10:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:11:03 i'd like to craft HER anium if you know what i mean 23:11:17 pikhq: the project gutenberg license is non-free :D 23:11:39 Phantom__Hoover: how big boom 23:12:20 Phantom__Hoover: I suggest it requires one uranium, four dynamite, and four iron 23:12:32 Phantom__Hoover: uranium in middle, surrounded by dynamite, iron in the corners 23:12:34 elliott, that's the precise design I had in mind. 23:12:37 Phantom__Hoover: actually iron is a bit out of place... 23:12:39 Phantom__Hoover: it's too common 23:12:42 Phantom__Hoover: may i suggest diamond? :D 23:12:59 Well, the point is that the uranium is the really rare bit. 23:13:23 Also, there would be *very* few reasons to detonate it unless in PvP SMP. 23:14:06 Phantom__Hoover: Griefer's dream. Well, really dedicated mining griefer. 23:14:21 I mean, I'm thinking of damage on the order of scouring all of the earth for kilometres around, and making vast areas unusable due to radiation. 23:14:31 Also, it can melt stone. 23:14:36 :D 23:14:37 Phantom__Hoover: I suggest that smelting uranium ore produces only one uranium. 23:14:52 Phantom__Hoover: But counts as, say, 16 to 32 units of smelting. 23:14:55 So you need, e.g., more than one coal to do it. 23:15:23 Phantom__Hoover: OH I HAVE A WONDERFUL IDEA 23:15:23 elliott, I fail to see the utility of that. 23:15:36 Phantom__Hoover: The utility is that smelting uranium becomes slower and more resource-using. 23:15:42 Phantom__Hoover: WONDERFUL IDEA: 23:15:49 Once you have any uranium ore, you'll have heaps of coal anyway. 23:15:51 Phantom__Hoover: When using uranium as a fuel for smelting, I said it produces 64 nuclear waste. 23:15:53 BUT BETTER IDEA: 23:16:12 Phantom__Hoover: It produces, say, 512 nuclear waste. If it has 64 and wants to generate another one, the furnace *explodes*. 23:16:31 Specifically, all bluestone it's connected to catches fire, and an explosion is made. 23:16:33 Small explosion, and irradiation. 23:16:37 Yes. 23:16:38 And also fire. 23:16:38 Phantom__Hoover: That, of course, is the reactor meltdown. 23:16:46 One TNT, not nuke. 23:17:03 Phantom__Hoover: Maybe more than one TNT, reactor meltdowns are pretty nasty. 23:17:32 elliott, due to nuclear leakage, not due to explosive power. 23:17:44 Phantom__Hoover: Oh, fine. You're no fun but okay. 23:18:09 The irradiation is bad enough. 23:18:15 Phantom__Hoover: Of course, you could "wrap" this up in a safe reactor, which uses BLUESTONE MAGIC to take out the nuclear waste and dispose of it safely. Or even, if you want a small design. 23:18:29 I mean, you end up with an effectively unusable patch of lang. 23:18:30 Phantom__Hoover: just have one that detects when the thing becomes full of nuclear waste and takes out the uranium. 23:18:32 *land 23:18:40 Phantom__Hoover: Oo, er, slight issue. 23:19:12 Phantom__Hoover: 32 full of nuclear waste in smelting output. You take the uranium out. You put it back in. 23:19:15 ZOMG INFINITE URANIUM POWER 23:20:03 elliott, make the uranium inaccessible like coal and other normal fuels? 23:20:25 Phantom__Hoover: Then how do you prevent meltdown if it fills with nuclear waste? Oh, duh, you destroy the furnace. 23:20:38 Or remove the waste? 23:20:43 Phantom__Hoover: Or that, yes. 23:20:49 Phantom__Hoover: OK, so the simplest safe reactor would be a furnace hooked up to a circuit that detects when there's 64 waste, and destroys the furnace. 23:21:05 Although detecting when there's 64 waste would probably require a chest to do it in, at which point you might as well just use the disposal-version. 23:21:19 Phantom__Hoover: Hmm, I feel like being able to destroy nuclear waste easily in lava is a bit of a cop out. 23:21:30 It is. 23:21:32 Phantom__Hoover: How about: Throwing nuclear waste into lava gradually irradiates it. When it fully radiates, it turns into obsidian. 23:21:38 Phantom__Hoover: No, this makes no sense, but who cares? 23:21:41 It sounds cool. 23:22:06 MC doesn't *have* any mechanic to make anything impossible to dispose, really; 23:22:24 Phantom__Hoover: And then a self-sustaining circuit would then mine the obsidian, get more lava, put lava in the hole again, and throw the obsidian into the lava. 23:22:37 Phantom__Hoover: And no, but impossible to dispose is boring; this just makes it _annoying_ to dispose of in large amounts. 23:22:55 Phantom__Hoover: omg, I so want to have all of this in the game ... but the Java work would be immense, and Notch would break it every update. 23:23:09 elliott, erm, you can just throw things and leave them for 15 minutes. 23:23:39 Phantom__Hoover: Thrown nuclear waste acts like placed nuclear waste. 23:23:45 i.e. gradually irradiates a large surrounding area. 23:24:02 Phantom__Hoover: And ideally it'd remember what chunks have thrown nuclear waste in, and record when it was thrown in the chunk file. 23:24:27 elliott, then just make a chamber deep underground and throw everything there. 23:24:38 Seal it when it's too irradiated to use. 23:24:43 Lather, rinse, repeat. 23:24:57 Phantom__Hoover: "Too irradiated to use"? 23:25:04 Anyway, I would imagine that radiation has infinite upwards extent. 23:25:27 Yes, but you reach a point where it kills you in 5 seconds. 23:25:49 So basically throwing it in a pit doesn't help. 23:26:59 can't you just make it a block that cannot be dropped 23:27:04 that seems more natural 23:27:11 elliott, yes, but consider: 23:27:18 oklopol: Yes, that's probably the best idea. 23:27:33 because the point is you need to find a place for it, if you can just put 64 in a 1x1x1 hole, that's kinda lame 23:28:18 * oklopol is looking at himself on top of a dancing minecart 23:28:58 oklopol: :D i've done that before 23:29:13 Phantom__Hoover: Consider... 23:29:46 Phantom__Hoover: Also, idea: N-thick (3?) obsidian blocks all radiation. Dump nuclear waste by storing it in large chests surrounded by thick obsidian. Make creepy underground passageways with warning signs to there. NEVER VISIT EVER. 23:29:49 Erm. Making it undroppable is a bit silly. 23:30:07 Phantom__Hoover: "This place is not a place of honour", etc. 23:30:08 That last idea is the best one. 23:30:21 (Have you read that paper or a summary of it of any kind? It's awesome.) 23:30:23 Oh, you read that stuff too? 23:30:27 Yes. 23:30:39 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:30:41 Did you find out about it from TV Tropes? 23:30:44 No, jwz. 23:30:47 ('s livejournal.) 23:31:05 Phantom__Hoover: Idea: Dropping nuclear waste starts irradiating the area around you EXTREMELY rapidly. 23:31:13 Phantom__Hoover: Makes no sense? Absolutely. Will stop anyone dropping it? Absolutely. 23:31:28 Phantom__Hoover: why is it silly? 23:31:50 oklopol: imagine an object in your pocket you can't throw out 23:31:53 sure mc isn't "realistic" 23:31:55 you can 23:31:55 but not being able to throw something? 23:31:58 that makes no sense 23:32:00 oklopol: orly 23:32:25 yes really. 23:32:30 oklopol, it just makes the whole idea pointlessly impractical. 23:32:37 oklopol: what then 23:33:02 Phantom__Hoover: then maybe you could have less then 64 of it, and you can't just carry it around in huge quantities, or you'll start getting damage at some point 23:33:02 Other idea: iron chests which block radiation enough to make it practical to store uranium. 23:33:06 *than 23:33:06 Phantom__Hoover: WRT those nuclear warnings, I have a feeling that future idiotic explorers might see it as "ha ha, this primitive culture thought they could keep us away from their treasure by making up some 'death-ium'!" 23:33:19 i don't see how elliott 23:33:24 OTOH, maybe it's best that such recklessness has its consequences demonstrated in the early days of a society. 23:33:28 's chest idea makes it wait he explained 23:33:28 oklopol: don't see how what 23:33:32 you die if you drop it 23:33:40 i think that's even sillier 23:33:50 (Gold blocks make best sense as shielding, followed by much larger amounts of iron.) 23:34:04 Phantom__Hoover: Just make gold chests. 23:34:08 Gold would become actually useful. 23:34:20 (Obsidian would actually be pretty useless IRL, since it's mainly silicon.) 23:34:24 elliott, yes! 23:34:25 Phantom__Hoover: I do think that you should be able to hold on to uranium for a few in-game days without starting to feel the radiation. 23:34:29 I mean, you need to handle it. 23:34:43 Yes, indeed. 23:34:55 It causes slow, tenuous damage, though. 23:34:55 Phantom__Hoover: OTOH, gold chests should probably decay if given tons of time. 23:35:07 you get radiation bubbles which start popping every few hours 23:35:15 i.e. you can't just eat some pork and get better. 23:35:19 ofc if you're holding 64... 23:35:19 Phantom__Hoover: I do think that obsidian should block it, 'cuz obsidian is basically made out of magic in Minecraft. 23:35:24 Phantom__Hoover: But only thick obsidian. 23:35:31 Phantom__Hoover: And it must have *no holes*. 23:35:34 Any holes --> radiation gets out. 23:35:56 Obsidian-coated gold chests is what you do every real-world month to dispose of your current pile-up of waste. 23:36:01 Far underground. 23:36:06 (You do NOT want to break that obsidian.) 23:36:27 Phantom__Hoover: Oh, and perhaps you need to leave enough space for the chest to burst. 23:36:42 i.e. if you store 64 obsidian in a gold chest, you need 63 free blocks surrounded by obsidian around the chest. 23:36:51 So that when the chest decays and the waste bursts out, it doesn't escape. 23:37:24 Makes sense. 23:37:50 Phantom__Hoover: Aaaand this is why it's sad that an awesome programmer didn't think of MC before Notch did. 23:38:02 Instead he's deciding on release dates and getting a documentary filmed. 23:38:04 Indeed. 23:39:29 Is there a chance of us getting a decent game in the same vein any time soon? 23:40:01 Phantom__Hoover: Clearly that must be Heavy Hoover FUN Industries' second product after ASTEROIDS II: NEWTONIAN BOOGALOO. 23:40:09 *Hoover Heavy FUN Industries' 23:40:12 So heavy in FUN1 23:40:14 *FUN! 23:41:18 Phantom__Hoover: NO? 23:41:33 Clearly. 23:41:45 And any projects that might actually come to fruition? 23:41:54 Phantom__Hoover: :P 23:42:02 Phantom__Hoover: oklopol's game will probably be decent if impossible. 23:42:14 (to play.) 23:42:20 oklopol has a game? 23:42:20 I figured out how I could make it read the log file, almost. I could do like: tex example > example.fot and then read that file in using TeX. But it won't work unless file contains \message{} command to force it to wake up otherwise it won't read past a certain point. 23:42:37 Phantom__Hoover: It's like Minecraft except 2D and it has no textures and creatures are super-deadly and everything is random and he came up with it before MC 23:43:22 Ah. 23:43:24 no i came up with this particular one tons after mc, i just hadn't heard about mc 23:43:29 Phantom__Hoover: Also, oklopol HAS made games before, albeit impossible-to-play ones. 23:43:29 As well as Asteroids II. 23:43:31 oklopol: same thing really 23:43:35 oklopol: independent invention 23:43:40 Phantom__Hoover: What about it. 23:43:43 oklopol seems to come up with the best game ideas. 23:43:46 well now mine has also all the few good ideas of mc 23:43:59 Oh, right, oklopol also invented Asteroids II unintentionally. 23:44:16 what's asteroids 2? 23:44:18 I made a lot of game too but probably nothing like that. 23:44:22 is it that game of mine 23:44:31 oklopol, remember that polygon gravitational thing you mentioned? 23:44:35 yeah 23:44:41 oklopol: Asteroids II is the game slowly crawling its way outside of the 2D Newtonian physics simulation. 23:44:45 *out of the 23:44:46 you're growing that out of that thing of yours? 23:44:47 yeah 23:44:52 sorta guessed 23:45:49 Phantom__Hoover: http://vjn.fi/index.php?g=0 oklo's games plus some other stuff 23:45:52 the mc type game of mine will mostly be about coding bots, you can't really survive otherwise 23:46:11 oklopol: are the .exes python-compiled 23:46:14 or are they not written in py 23:46:23 (you're not supposed to let your player die) 23:46:30 erm actually i'm considering using c# 23:46:35 oklopol: i mean the games you've made 23:46:38 since someone taught me to make pixels in it.. 23:46:47 c++ and non-compiled python 23:46:55 oklopol: Why do you have to use C# if just C should work? 23:47:04 i don't know how to make a pixel in c 23:47:15 also, C is the worst language in the world 23:47:22 i'd rather use brainfuck 23:47:31 well who wouldn't, but i'd rather use c++ 23:47:41 oklopol, C is a nice enough language. 23:47:42 oklopol: putpixel(screen, x, y, colour) 23:47:44 oklopol: allegro ^ 23:47:46 oklopol: Why you don't know how? And what is so bad with C? I prefer Enhanced CWEB to make a C program. 23:47:47 for putting a pixel 23:47:51 It's just abused horribly. 23:47:57 although _putpixel() is faster 23:48:02 you just have to decide what colour depth you want 23:48:06 zzo38: i don't know how to make a pixel because no one told me how one is drawn 23:48:16 oklopol: putpixel(screen, x, y, colour) 23:48:17 w/ allegro 23:48:18 zzo38, STOP MENTIONING YOUR GODDAMN _EXTENSION_ TO A PREEXISTING PROGRAM SOMEONE ELSE WROTE. 23:48:24 NOONE ELSE WILL _EVER_ USE IT 23:48:26 DEAL WITH IT 23:48:28 oklopol: fully: putpixel(screen, x, y, makecol(r, g, b)) 23:48:29 :D 23:48:33 oklopol: It depends what system you are using for screen drawing. 23:48:42 oklopol: so now you gotta use C! also it'll be faster :p 23:48:46 Like, it might be different SDL with Allegro, for example. 23:48:46 elliott: but so can i just open a text editor, write that inside mine and compile? 23:48:48 and have a better chance of running on linux 23:48:48 ... 23:48:49 main 23:49:02 too much mc maybe. 23:49:07 oklopol: you have to put allegro_init(); first and then like a few lines to tell it what size screen you want 23:49:12 oklopol: plus tell it that you, like, want a keyboard 23:49:14 but after that 23:49:16 pretty much, yep 23:49:21 allegro is very simple as these things go 23:49:50 I prefer to use SDL, but you can use Allegro if you prefer. 23:49:57 oklopol: http://alleg.sourceforge.net/docs/how_to_make_a_pong_game.en.html Pong in Allegro, obviously you can ignore all the stupid image/sprite/mouse stuff 23:49:58 well, that does sound nice enough. but the pathfinding algos i have are rather complicated, and would probably be faster in c# than me-written c 23:50:09 oklopol: erm i find that doubtful 23:50:13 oklopol: unless you're like a mega leet c# coder 23:50:26 since ~pretty much the same algorithm can be done in C for all such algorithms 23:50:36 and C has the advantage of not having all the vm baggage and also of having well-tuned compilers 23:50:41 oklopol: Is there a problem with C that you cannot do #try #catch that operating at *compile time*? 23:50:47 well i certainly am not, but i don't understand anything about cache of anything, and i can't exactly just load chunks when player goes near like mc can 23:51:11 oklopol: well uh C# doesn't cache for you 23:51:16 it's not that much higher-level than C 23:51:18 objects don't solve caching :P 23:51:21 oklopol: so you're gonna simulate an infinite world every frame? 23:51:22 clever 23:51:23 zzo38: the problem is C isn't very high level 23:51:30 nor is C# :D 23:51:33 i mean i find math too low level 23:51:34 C# is just java with lambdas. 23:51:56 nowadays i prefer lack of communication. 23:52:16 oklopol: write it in J 23:52:22 oklopol: or oklotalk! write it in oklotalk 23:52:36 zzo38, do you seriously not realise that you are just being annoying by constantly bringing up your own solutions to problems nobody has. 23:52:48 elliott: no i'm not going to simulate an infinite world every frame, that would mean nth iteration takes Omega(n) times 23:52:49 *tim 23:52:50 e 23:53:03 I like C, but I think it should have a few more compile-time directives such as ones to catch compiler errors and warnings, and to tell the optimizer about various things that might even be wrong... 23:53:05 but i'm simulating a huge part of the world, preferably 23:53:06 oklopol: it would take O(infinity) time :D which is the same as O(0) 23:53:13 oklopol: then C will help for the pure number-crunching speed 23:53:21 oklopol: do blocks have any more state than what type of block they are? 23:53:46 elliott: c# is much higher-level, but i guess if i dl'd nice data structures for c someone competent has made, it would just have uglier syntax. 23:53:54 and no gc 23:54:46 elliott: no it wouldn't 23:54:50 take infinity time 23:55:03 messages don't travel infinitely far 23:55:31 oklopol: okay then 23:55:34 23:52 elliott: oklopol: do blocks have any more state than what type of block they are? 23:55:51 elliott: blocks can be programmed arbitrarily, and different blocks have different "components" that determine what they can actually physically do 23:56:10 arbitrarily, although depends on block how much programming it allows, most blocks are pretty stupid 23:56:26 oklopol: so you can create a new block the behaves pretty much exactly how you like by programming? 23:56:27 oklopol: while playing? 23:56:30 l0lz 23:56:43 yes 23:56:49 well 23:57:02 as i said, most blocks will not be all that useful 23:57:16 oklopol: right, the issue there is that your world update gets a whole lot slower 23:57:16 Phantom__Hoover: Why do you think they are nobody problems? 23:57:25 say they have an empty list of components 23:57:36 oklopol: it's turned from basically an advanced, big cellular automaton with wider effects into running millions of programs per frame :D 23:57:46 elliott: it's just optimized away unless you start madly programming blocks. 23:58:01 oklopol: ok, so there are basically "predefined blocks", and "programmed blocks"? 23:58:05 where the former are optimisations of the latter 23:58:35 yes. conceptual purity in an impure way. 23:58:48 because true purity is a bit out of reach 23:58:52 also 23:58:57 oklopol: how many predefined blocks, 256, 16 thousand, or way more? 23:58:59 ever, hypothetically 23:59:05 block types that is 23:59:41 blocks stop executing far enough from the player, probably. the pure reason being then you need to keep your player block near 2011-01-08: 00:00:12 oklopol: but how many predefined block types will there be :P 00:00:12 elliott: combinations of as many features as i can come up with, and can make work together 00:00:21 you can just read the code of the blocks to see what they do 00:00:24 oklopol: as in, an actual number 00:00:26 for _predefined_ blocks 00:00:31 i.e. optimised ones 00:00:45 well astronomically many, because it's features that are optimized, not individual blocks 00:00:57 oklopol: so a block is a set of features? 00:01:04 mostly. 00:01:16 oklopol: mostly? :D 00:01:20 your game is SO IMPURE 00:01:29 basically it's a list of components that perform a physical action, and a program that executes them. 00:01:44 that's all 00:01:51 oklopol: so the former are like...limbs? 00:02:23 you can think of them that way, but components can teleport, change the block's shape, move it, copy it, change programs of other blocks, glue to other blocks, etc 00:02:48 oklopol: so what _is_ a component 00:02:51 in its actual definition 00:03:01 oklopol: also, so, there are no hardcoded programs? 00:03:03 there's also a kind of discrete version of euclidean physics in play, for when you build make huge structures, but dunno if i'll actually implement that 00:03:05 if blocks aren't hardcoded, just features 00:03:40 yeah 00:03:42 i believe so 00:03:48 the programs shouldn't be very complicated 00:03:52 in natural blocks 00:03:58 oklopol: so updating the world is running millions of programs, still. 00:04:04 that's not going to be fast. 00:04:17 not really, many of them will be event-based, and can just be unloaded 00:04:46 oklopol: :D so it's actually a table of programs? 00:05:07 and the programs are executed very slowly. and why do you say that? just a programming language that allows events. 00:05:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:05:58 oklopol: so updating the world does not actually run the block programs? 00:06:02 so anyway basically if you find a block that can execute a lot of code, you might still need a block that computes a specific type of function or your bot will take ages doing that in software 00:06:07 for instance pathfinding is like this 00:06:29 elliott: it does on paper, but the world is designed so that it can usually be optimized awayt. 00:06:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:06:31 *away 00:07:04 oklopol: :D your game is not very conceptually pure, i have no idea what the block structure definition would look like at all 00:08:10 it is. a block has a piece of code that it executes at that blocks execution speed, and can call functions specific to that block. 00:08:13 oklopol, what do you actually *study*? 00:08:15 that's all the game is 00:08:22 math, corrently, rather cs type 00:08:46 doing my master's thesis in picture languages, currently doing automata on pics 00:08:51 *currently 00:09:20 currently as in forever from now on, but i was doing cs a year ago, and officially changed only after i finished my bachelor's which was a few months ago 00:09:29 again, oklo month which is anywhere between a day and a year 00:09:34 Picture languages? 00:09:36 november i think 00:09:40 yeah matrices over finite alphabet 00:09:56 oklopol: are you still in your second year :) 00:10:06 without any operations, automata theory in 2d, basically 00:10:12 elliott: no, second year of math tho 00:10:17 oklopol: third? 00:10:28 yeah third year of uni going 00:10:48 i wonder how you and Sgeo can be in the same room without, like, exploding 00:10:51 matter, antimatter, that sorta shit 00:11:01 if you count the cs time, i'm only half a year ahead of the usual scheduly, degreewise 00:11:30 elliott: It is not a bomb. It is a device that is (not) exploding. 00:11:34 zzo38: what. 00:11:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 00:11:38 yay 00:11:53 oklopol: yes but you have a stupidly large awesome surplus 00:12:01 lol i'm not that good, my master's thesis is going to be complete bullshit for instance 00:12:26 i have an open problem that i decided to solve 00:12:30 and i haven't been able to 00:12:41 even though anyone could do it 00:13:44 oklopol: does your game have gravity 00:13:55 yes, kind of 00:14:24 i mean 00:14:28 oklopol: lame 00:14:31 who likes restricted movement 00:14:32 NOT ME 00:14:35 gravity exists, but you can hover quite far 00:14:37 oklopol: unless you mean like 00:14:43 oklopol: air blocks have their program built to push you down 00:14:47 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:14:47 i don't want lack of gravity, because i like the idea of falling 00:14:49 oklopol: and you can just hack their program out if you want :D 00:14:53 because that would be... amazing 00:16:47 well see currently there is quite a complicated physics, but i'll probably leave those optional, because i can't imagine others enjoying them. 00:17:15 oklopol: dude, my idea was amazing? leave the physics up to the blocks? 00:17:18 because i seem to be the only man on earth who enjoys learning weird physicses 00:17:21 hacking air to float? 00:17:27 or at least people don't play my cool games :( 00:17:34 oklopol: i want to but you only provide exes on vjn ;o 00:17:35 gimme some .py 00:17:53 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:18:11 elliott: erm yeah, physics are up to the blocks of course 00:18:22 but you don't need air to even be an actual block for that 00:18:26 oklopol: but it should be 00:18:27 obviously 00:18:31 yes, it should 00:18:37 oklopol: the great thing is 00:18:44 oklopol: have an air meter which goes down very quickly 00:18:52 oklopol: then, air blocks just have code to give you air :D 00:19:00 and you can make a vacuum, which will suffocate you 00:19:04 but also let you float 00:19:14 and if you want to breathe but float, you could hack some air blocks' source 00:19:22 oklopol: amazing yes? 00:19:40 yeah at some point i was thinking about air physics, air pressure etc 00:19:59 not suffocation tho, you have to keep eating to survive anyway 00:20:08 oklopol: but then you could just chill in a vacuum 00:20:10 which makes little sense :D 00:20:11 (but you just have a program for that ofc) 00:20:21 oklopol: also bonus: if stuff like falls on top of you, you suffocate 00:20:27 or if you jam your head into stone somehow 00:21:26 head? 00:21:33 * Phantom__Hoover → sleep 00:21:35 oklopol: well as in you 00:21:38 right 00:21:40 the head is metaphorical 00:21:44 right 00:22:27 oklopol: but you could turn yourself into a robot if you wanted right? 00:22:30 artificial head etc. just have you as a brain 00:22:47 you can glue blocks to yourself if you get the glueing component 00:22:56 you inherit components from the blocks you own 00:23:21 you can make yourself into a robot, yes, that's basically what the game is about 00:23:27 oklopol: can i make a perpetual motion machine 00:24:03 well you have your in-game coding window, which is maybe not your primary, but a very important part of your movement. 00:24:44 and there's a high-level clue-based stack language......................... 00:24:52 maybe i shouldn't have mentioned that 00:25:03 oklopol: when can i buy it 00:25:05 :D 00:25:28 oklopol: tomorrow? 00:25:35 i'll try to finish my thesis in february, then start allocating coding time 00:25:49 i have a tiny little coding spark atm, actually 00:25:53 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:26:02 oklopol: i kinda wanna code it somehow except i'd be terrible :D 00:26:56 go ahead, a proof of concept shouldn't be hard to make 00:27:28 oklopol: no it sounds _really_ hard 00:27:33 :D 00:27:52 oklopol: even doing it in haskell sounds like drudgery :D 00:27:57 oklopol: you should write the whole thing in Clue++ 00:29:13 basically you have a stack language, but there are events, and a command for "use the components X to achieve Y", which should work for simple things like pathfinding very well, and hopefully could manage some slow stupid way for more complicated things 00:29:35 and the language is very high-level, like you can just directly refer to things you see on map 00:29:39 well 00:29:44 oklopol: why stack though 00:29:51 that's not all that high-level, that clue command is much more high-level :D 00:30:13 oklopol: also you should make the code have no text form, clicking blocks to actually put a little line from them to a little point in the code sounds hilariously funsilly 00:30:15 yeah dunno about stack, for some reason it feels natural for that kind of things 00:30:32 well, maybe make a block highlight be, like, a picture of a block and its moore neighbours dimmed 00:30:35 yeah, it should be very untexty 00:30:49 and you can like hover over it with your mouse and it shows you that part of the map with a red border around the block 00:31:36 yeah that's pretty much what i'm going for 00:32:31 but anyway i'll probably publish the physics before starting to code it 00:32:36 oklopol: well then allow me to state the obvious 00:32:43 or at least completely specify them 00:32:43 oklopol: have there be another map, filled with functions 00:32:52 oklopol: you don't ever use words, you just include parts of the code-map 00:32:54 :D 00:33:00 :D 00:33:06 and you can draw a little like 16x16 icon for each block in the code-map 00:33:09 so you could fit a few letters on 00:33:14 or a representative picture demonstrating its operation 00:33:20 and then code is just a sequence of pictures 00:33:24 heh, i wish i didn't find that such a great idea. 00:33:39 oklopol: it's great because it'd show you the dimmed neighbours of that function in the actual code... like you know ... 00:33:43 but yeah i was kinda thinking that, something like an inventory of code blocks 00:33:45 oklopol: if you liked this function, why not try these similar functions... 00:34:27 xd 00:34:31 heh 00:35:22 oklopol: okay but seriously, it would be cool 00:35:26 oklopol: in fact... 00:35:33 yeah but anyway, mainly i'm interested in enemies. 00:35:35 oklopol: those function-squares? 00:35:39 oklopol: should be doors leading into function rooms 00:35:47 haha 00:35:50 oklopol: that's right: individual pieces of code are themselves a map 00:35:54 after all, they're just a bunch of blocks 00:36:01 stop laughing, i am a revolutionary 00:36:31 alrighty 00:36:41 oklopol: so that's how you're doing it, yes? 00:37:17 anyway the thing is i want the game to be fucking scary, you never know if the next block you mine out is a tree that grows 5 blocks at a time for 10 seconds, then explodes 00:37:45 you have to use bots to mine, and try to find ways to do that safely 00:37:53 oklopol: question, is it realtime or turnbased 00:38:47 realtime, a couple moves a second, where a move could be moving to your neighbor cell. (it will actually look rather smooth tho, because you have to look at it all the time.) 00:39:17 like when you start, it's that, of course later on your player block can basically just teleport whereever it wants 00:40:50 oklopol: but time is like... boring? 00:40:54 so linear 00:41:42 it's on the commutative free group with two generators, the second most done to death thing in the mathematical world 00:42:01 Z^2 00:42:12 time i do not mind, however. 00:42:16 oklopol: but time is lame. 00:42:33 oklopol: at least make each second take an amount of time determined by a complex formula 00:43:21 :D 00:43:23 well 00:43:37 time slows down further away from sentient blocks 00:44:21 and comes to a stop, eventually (i would make it never come to a stop due to purity, but that's not very practical) 00:45:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 00:45:51 oklopol: just make it so that some kind of circuit fails if time is going too slowly 00:45:56 and it turns out, everything is made out of this circuit! 00:46:25 elliott: it does 00:46:29 definitely 00:46:40 oklopol: then your problem is solved PURELY 00:46:58 :P 00:47:08 sorry i misread you 00:47:12 " oklopol: just make it so that some kind of circuit fails if time is going too slowly" 00:47:17 somehow i managed to read something like 00:47:33 "doesn't it make certain kinds of circuits fail if time slows down at a certain boundary" 00:47:48 oklopol: :D 00:48:17 because this is a very bad thing if you want to have say a computer: it doesn't just stop when you move away, it might completely break due to time slowing in an unfortunate way in one part of the machine 00:48:46 oklopol: just make the story be that everything is made out of this material or whatever 00:48:59 oklopol: and that its interactions break down when time gets too slow, such that it just sort of warbles on the spot 00:49:05 oklopol: and then starts running again if time is faster 00:49:12 but, 1) these distances are very big, 2) this is a completely documented (or at least consistent) physics thing, so you just have to deal with it. 00:49:17 and you should be able to 00:49:23 then, you can simulate infinite time-slowdown, with a discrete universe 00:49:34 just by ignoring all blocks beyond a certain point 00:49:39 and this is deemed OK by the pure physics 00:49:41 I AM GENIUS 00:50:38 well, anything can be called pure, and somehow implemented in-game, conceptually. although i'm sure this is a rather kill-joy thing to say 00:51:15 oklopol: specify the pure semantics based on the semantics of finite-state machines, x86, Unix, and C 00:51:18 oklopol: SO PURE YET SO PRACTICAL 00:51:29 elliott, cool craftbook has "ICs" that shoot arrows. I'm building a battery of them now 00:51:37 :D 00:52:12 also pvp should be more fun when you can program thousands of blocks to fight each other 00:52:29 oklopol, too many arrow cause lag 00:52:33 network lag 00:52:39 even when they are on ground 00:52:42 this makes no sense 00:52:46 we're talking about my nonexistant game, no lag in that one. 00:52:52 oklopol, ah 00:53:04 oklopol, I was talking about craftbook 00:53:13 (as well) 00:53:28 elliott: your radiation stuff should mutate animals into monsters. just saying. 00:53:30 *ent 00:53:36 whooplers 00:53:51 oerjan: way ahead of you :D 00:54:01 elliott: i didn't see you mentioning that... 00:54:08 my head calculates quickly 00:54:18 oerjan: i was thinking they'd turn into rotting, crazy animals that die easily but are vicious 00:54:29 oerjan: or maybe sometimes they are really hard to kill thanks to radiative superpowers 00:54:37 oerjan: i just couldn't perfect it enough to be worth saying yet :D 00:55:10 all of that feels so small-scale now that i have my game in my head again. 00:55:16 mmmm 00:55:17 my game 00:57:00 another thing i'd like to make is this game where you have an arbitrary monoid, and you can walk on it, dunno what the game is really, or if there is one, i have this marvelous way to project it in 3d 00:57:22 but it can't fit in an irc message 00:57:54 . 00:58:17 oerjan: so do you play MC :D 00:58:47 no he's too busy doing things 00:58:56 no 00:59:11 oerjan: if i giftcoded you it would you play it, it sounds like a hilarious event 00:59:33 no 01:00:46 hello 01:00:50 there is salsa night tonight 01:00:53 with lots of hot women 01:01:44 so which is hotter 01:01:47 oerjan: you would ... reject my purchase??!?!?!?! ;( 01:01:47 the women or the salsa 01:01:50 oerjan: take that insult back 01:01:56 oerjan: you can't do that, that's stealing 01:02:28 elliott: what's going onnn 01:02:37 i'm trying to convince oerjan that he should play minecraft 01:02:50 you might find yourself unable to 01:03:08 i think he's sort of had this thing where he was "siding with me" in not playing minecraft 01:03:17 (whereas i simply didn't care) 01:03:19 i...don't think so 01:03:24 oerjan: are you aware of any alliance with cheater00 01:03:33 that was like way back 01:03:37 he probably forgot already 01:03:39 oerjan: what's your relationship with cheater00? 01:03:47 it would be useless as i would undoubtedly trigger my rsi 01:03:54 cheater00: well i kinda know you for making up bullshit theories to explain random things you see. usually related to yourself 01:03:58 oerjan: rsi enhances the experience 01:04:04 oerjan: immensely 01:04:20 elliott: that's because i am god and everything i say immediately becomes reality... right? 01:04:28 cheater00: yes 01:04:36 oerjan: play with the other hand!!!!!!!!!! 01:04:55 haha yeah the one YOU DON'T USE FOR MASTURBATION :dDDDDDDDDD 01:05:02 i get it 01:05:04 cheater00: none of my hands are entirely free of it 01:05:09 also elliott, the functions of the mouse buttons, can you remap them to the keyboard somehow? 01:05:17 because you mostly only get rsi when you click the mouse 01:05:23 if you just move it around it's much better 01:05:30 surely. but not with minecraft itself 01:05:33 oklopol: :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 01:05:37 yes. 01:05:41 did you get it too? 01:05:45 the joke is 01:05:51 erm 01:05:52 also it's nice to have them on the mouse 01:05:53 wait 01:05:57 oklopol: yes. 01:06:02 oerjan: i'll pay you, regularly, to play minecraft 01:06:02 cheater00: also it's not _really_ rsi because my feet hurt as well 01:06:11 * Sgeo ills 01:06:13 oerjan: use the other foot 01:06:16 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 01:06:17 xD 01:06:21 but it definitely gets worse when i play games 01:06:21 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxD 01:06:33 haha yeah the one YOU DON'T USE FOR MASTURBATION :dDDDDDDDDD 01:06:38 :| 01:06:43 is that why you couldn't play mastur minecra minesweeper 01:06:49 minesweeper that one time 01:06:59 -!- zeotrope has joined. 01:07:02 oerjan: but no really 01:07:08 never mind masturbating with the feet.. 01:07:19 it might be a slipped disc? 01:07:20 i remember i told my record 01:07:29 oklopol: 23 times a day? 01:07:29 and oerjan is like LOL goddammit oklo ur so nub 01:07:37 oklopol: your masturbation record? 01:07:39 i can do it in like MINUTE 01:07:43 ha! 01:07:44 lol :( 01:07:49 oerjan gets it down to, like, 20 seconds 01:07:49 and i go well do it and show vid 01:07:52 and he starts 01:07:52 unfortunately it's given him rsi 01:07:54 oklopol: xDDDD 01:07:58 then says nah hands can't do it. 01:08:14 oklopol: i see no reason _whatsoever_ to read your words with the correct interpretation 01:08:18 true story, do you remember oerjan? 01:08:20 although i suspect you might have been encouraging that. sightly. 01:08:20 i mean 01:08:22 *slightly. 01:08:29 the part i said, the others may have added stuff 01:08:51 elliott: no 01:08:53 i didn't 01:08:59 i'm angry at you people for doing that 01:09:07 meanwhile in another channel 01:09:09 i have damaged oerjan's stellar reputation 01:09:10 and just for that i'm never letting you play my game 01:09:16 what router should i buy? 01:09:23 an old openbsd box! 01:09:31 use the other hand! 01:09:37 but that would be more expensive and generate more heat 01:09:48 haha ur mum generate heat 01:09:49 i just want something i can order and plug in ;( 01:09:55 www.dildos.com 01:09:58 haha like a sexual dol 01:10:00 cheater00: censoring usernames = lame 01:10:10 lol c gets it :D 01:10:13 cheater00: also that quote wasn't...funny 01:10:24 `quote 01:10:25 `quote 01:10:25 `quote 01:10:26 `quote 01:10:27 i don't want you quazimodos bothering srs ppl 01:10:28 `quote 01:10:39 cheater00: usernames != channel name 01:10:52 you can still /queery 01:11:03 139) ooh a test to see your procrastination hotspots ill do it later 01:11:04 126) Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing 01:11:04 109) so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? 01:11:04 6) His body should be given to science. He's alive :P Even so. 01:11:04 249) I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi 01:11:12 cheater00: who would bother doing that 01:11:33 elliott: oklopol 01:11:37 mee 01:11:40 ^ 01:11:56 oklopol talking is a gift to anyone so stfu 01:12:12 in german, gift means poison 01:12:14 yeah just the other day i was talking about bukkake on this channel on programming 01:12:24 what was your gift for christmas??????????????????????? 01:12:25 everyone was like OH GOD WHERES THE OPS ::DOS 01:12:33 oklopol: yeah 01:12:33 i didn't get any really 01:12:36 oklopol: i don't recall oh god wheres the ops :P 01:12:38 oklopol: "about programming" 01:12:38 presents 01:12:46 oklopol: you seriously need to die xD 01:13:11 i'm surprisingly hard to kill 01:13:11 no oklopol is the best 01:13:28 i got this 2tb drive actually 01:13:34 i guess that was sorta a present from my mumma 01:13:36 only 2tb? 01:13:45 my cpu has more cache 01:13:49 afaik 2.5 is the largest drive you can actually buy :p 01:13:51 yes, they didn't have smaller ones 01:13:55 nwb 01:14:00 so i'll have to do with that 01:14:06 what are you gonna run on it 01:14:12 windows 3.11? 01:14:26 i'm not gonna put an os on it 01:14:45 oklopol has a computer with no operating system in it 01:15:06 he turns it on, lets it fail booting, and then tries different keyboard inputs to see if anything happens like on a c64. 01:15:10 :D 01:16:05 this computer has maybe dunno 200gb 01:16:28 200 gb donkey porn 01:16:44 nowadays i usually stream everything 01:17:07 all your donkey porn 01:17:19 i do not have donkey porn on my hd 01:17:32 yeah you stream it all 01:17:33 you can lead a donkey to the stream, but you can't make it drink 01:17:35 oklopol is the registrar ceo for www.donkeyporn 01:17:55 :D 01:18:00 wait what 01:18:01 one of the lesser known toplevel domains 01:18:11 ah there you go 01:18:27 it seems i foresaw the funny 01:18:48 cinemraft! 01:18:51 they had to allow it but chose to keep it under lids 01:19:49 it's banned in most muslim countries though. not because they're donkeys, but because some of them are male. 01:20:33 lol it links femanic there 01:21:20 can't find any dp tho 01:21:49 rule 34 is pretty silly, clearly none of the people advertising it have actually researched the subject 01:22:17 in other news, that is 01:22:20 oklopol: no no it's far more subtle than you believe 01:22:32 oklopol: it's essentially a platonist statement 01:22:41 ohh i get it 01:22:49 oklopol: basically you can't consider 34 along, 35 is just as important 01:22:55 oklopol: porn *exists*, but if porn *doesn't* exist, it will be made 01:23:37 oklopol: the point is: 34 is "For every thing, there _exists_ porn of it." but 35 is "For every thing, if the _extant_ porn of it is has not been _realised_ and distributed yet, then it is _guaranteed_ to be at some point in the future (given that civilisation continues)." 01:23:57 oklopol: i.e., when porn of something is created for which no porn previously existed, it is actually just being _realised_; it already existed in the platonic realm of ideas. 01:24:15 right 01:24:16 therefore, rules 34 and 35 can and do coexist without contradiction; they are both completely true. 01:24:22 a deep philosophical statement. 01:24:30 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 01:25:00 hi folks 01:25:04 hey 01:25:09 we're talking about esolangs 01:25:14 haha yes totally true 01:25:21 yes 01:25:29 i wanted to start explaining clue but ugh 01:25:33 i came to listen 01:25:44 Someone should rule34 Brainfuck 01:25:59 thx anyway oklopol 01:26:29 as long as you didn't come to conquer 01:26:56 clue is pretty awesome tho 01:27:18 clue clue clue 01:27:38 nor to divide 01:27:57 division is quite accepted here 01:28:12 > 3%4 + 1/6 01:28:13 11 % 12 01:28:31 heeey found it www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar 01:28:37 at least to anything but zero 01:28:41 probably doesn't work with current pythons :( 01:28:46 > 1/0 01:28:47 Infinity 01:28:51 is it? 01:29:04 yeah we do wheels here 01:30:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:30:40 oklopol just has no clue 01:30:54 cluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue 01:31:08 every time an error in the official clue imp is corrected, a new u is added 01:31:16 the name is still clue because i'm very smart 01:31:41 unlike others who have no clue 01:31:49 actually me and a uni friend designed a much nicer conditional system but i've been too lazy to implement it 01:31:57 that was like when clue was first implemented 01:32:01 so what was that like last week 01:32:07 dunno 01:32:08 "SKI compiles in about 20 seconds on my machine." 01:32:09 :D 01:32:12 "All this code is mine, don't touch it unless you really want to." 01:32:13 I really want to. 01:32:25 :D 01:32:28 lol 01:32:39 oklopol: so is oklotalk superseded by clue 01:32:44 ilkka made an interp for random or what's it called 01:32:54 should up that 01:32:58 at some point 01:33:30 what's random 01:33:42 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Random? :P 01:33:42 a language on esolang, pretty retarded 01:33:52 oklopol: so is oklotalk 2 clue++ 01:33:54 i think so 01:34:01 hehe 01:34:04 maybe! 01:34:15 oklopol: so what's clue++ 01:34:19 clue where everything is an oklotalk object? :P 01:34:21 feed buridans mules 01:34:24 def funthatreturnsntharg(i): 01:34:25 return lambda*args:args[i] 01:34:27 :D 01:34:28 i like your naming convention 01:34:30 it's hilarious 01:34:42 basically i'd like clue with something like object 01:34:55 oklopol: right, and then you'll code oklOS in it 01:35:03 *s 01:35:18 oklopol: where you write programs by drawing a gui, drawing the result of using this gui, repeat a few times, and give it a few clues as to what operation the program performs 01:35:23 and it spits out a half-broken gui app object 01:35:27 but most importantly, the concept of strategies. 01:35:27 AM I CORRECT 01:36:05 lol 01:36:07 :D 01:36:13 oklopol: so erm is there a way to get clue to print out the function it infers 01:36:44 maybe the compiler has a way, but the code is not very structured 01:36:56 (and of course even if it were, you wouldn't know by reading it) 01:37:02 wait 01:37:07 # functions are applied (using applier and aritiers) randomly to objects, to get new objects 01:37:11 actually random? :D 01:37:33 not in that implementation, i think 01:37:40 afaict it has no actual interface :) 01:37:59 oklopol: hmm i think if you print out the function right before compiling it to a func it would work 01:38:09 but it's not specified, so that could be sensible, probably it's just poetic. 01:38:11 nice article on that topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass 01:38:45 of course it doesn't have an interface, interfaces are for people who don't have faces exter. 01:39:03 i hope that is convincing enough 01:39:15 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 01:39:16 $ python cluetest.py 01:39:17 19.804610014 01:39:17 3 01:39:21 oklopol: this isn't... imprecise SKI is it? 01:39:28 oh no that's timing info :D 01:39:45 there should be a rather clear separation of compilation and running 01:39:48 "A discrete decision based upon an input having a continuous range of values cannot be made within a bounded length of time." 01:39:50 ...again conceptually 01:40:07 ^ 01:40:24 oklopol: i think i'm gonna try and hack cluetofun to print stuff 01:40:43 erm hrm, i have this vague memory that i considered making a nice output form for funcs 01:40:44 C[B[IOP([1]:0)], B[IOP([2]:0)], B[IOP([3]:0)], B[IOP([[2, 1]]:0), IOP([[2, 3]]:0)], B[IOP([[[3, 2], 1]]:0), IOP([[[3, 4], 5]]:0)], B[IOP([[3, 2]]:0), IOP([[3, 4]]:0)], B[IOP([[1, 0]]:1), IOP([[[2, 1], 0]]:2), IOP([[[[3, 2], 1], 0]]:3), IOP([[[[[1, 2]]]]]:4), IOP([[[[[[1, 2], 3], 4], 5], 6]]:4)]] 01:40:48 maybe i never got to that... 01:40:49 oklopol: does that look like post-inferred code? 01:40:54 or is that the pre-inferring 01:40:55 xD 01:41:00 that's... 01:41:02 inferring = working out actual function from the source 01:41:03 pre 01:41:09 those are just data 01:41:11 are you sure 01:41:13 they are lists 01:41:15 yes 01:41:16 for i in clue.branches: 01:41:16 if i.isbase(): 01:41:16 compile_base(clue.bag,clue.helper_objs,i) 01:41:18 if i.isrec(): 01:41:20 compile_rec(clue.bag,clue.helper_objs,i) 01:41:22 it's after that 01:41:26 1, 2, 3 are the ski functions 01:41:29 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:41:34 so what should i print, clue.bag? 01:41:50 no i don't think so... 01:42:00 can i see the... wait what the fuck maybe i can just dl it 01:42:08 elliott's writing Python? 01:42:18 no, i'm hacking okopython 01:42:21 he's learning from gods 01:42:21 which is a good language 01:42:21 no rapes it 01:42:38 oklopol: why do you use classes, you should write all your python code with functions 01:42:40 :D 01:42:41 hagb4rd: my code, elliott is just reading 01:42:52 elliott: www.vjn.fi/oklopol/python.txt 01:42:57 how about that style? 01:43:09 oklopol: yeah that is quite acceptable, but you still use objects 01:43:58 opening the jar of beauty that is clue.py 01:44:20 def nil(g): 01:44:20 return{'car':nil,'cdr':nil,'length':0}[g] 01:44:20 def cons(x,y): 01:44:22 def _(g):return{'car':x,'cdr':y,'length'1+y('length')}[g] 01:44:24 return _ 01:44:27 oklopol: is this not a more perfect way to implement lists than any other? 01:44:31 *'length':1+ 01:44:43 ofc ideally you'd do your own naturals too for the length 01:44:50 you should probably print code 01:44:53 .code 01:45:33 oklopol: that just prints a lot of None :D so i guess compile_clue is the important func 01:45:51 well you have to umm argh i'll read better 01:45:55 def compile_clue(clue): 01:45:55 def fun(*args): 01:45:55 return call_clue(clue,args,10) 01:45:57 funn=stuff.unvararg(fun,clue.arity) 01:45:59 clue.setcode(funn) 01:46:01 return funn 01:46:03 or not 01:46:13 ah 01:46:27 yeah that funn should be the program i think 01:46:54 erm... 01:46:58 oklopol: yess, but you see it's a python function 01:47:00 so not really printable:) 01:47:09 so compile all 01:47:16 def call_clue(clue,args,depth_lim): 01:47:16 if depth_lim==0: 01:47:16 return ["nothing here"] 01:47:18 value=clue.condcode(*args) 01:47:20 hmm 01:47:22 so condcode has something to do with it 01:47:24 except maybe not 01:47:24 compiles all functions in a piece of clue code, and returns a hashtable with these program 01:47:26 clue.branches 01:47:28 s 01:47:28 it's definitely clue.branches 01:47:33 for i in clue.branches: 01:47:33 if i.istest():continue 01:47:34 if i.value==value: 01:47:36 return call_branch(clue,i,args,depth_lim) 01:47:37 oh right 01:47:38 if i.value==None: 01:47:40 default=i 01:47:41 it's a python function yeah 01:47:42 oklopol: clue.branches is the real code, then? 01:47:44 yessss 01:47:49 i think so yeah 01:47:52 oklopol: but then branch.code is a python function :D 01:47:55 indeed i compile to python code 01:47:58 oklopol: so what's the precompiled version 01:48:00 of branch.code 01:48:03 is there an internal representation 01:48:11 erm fuck 01:48:19 printing branches gives 01:48:20 [B[IOP([1]:0)], B[IOP([2]:0)], B[IOP([3]:0)], B[IOP([[2, 1]]:0), IOP([[2, 3]]:0)], B[IOP([[[3, 2], 1]]:0), IOP([[[3, 4], 5]]:0)], B[IOP([[3, 2]]:0), IOP([[3, 4]]:0)], B[IOP([[1, 0]]:1), IOP([[[2, 1], 0]]:2), IOP([[[[3, 2], 1], 0]]:3), IOP([[[[[1, 2]]]]]:4), IOP([[[[[[1, 2], 3], 4], 5], 6]]:4)]] 01:48:26 which is pretty much what print clue gave :D 01:48:40 what's get_ast? 01:48:46 i have no fucking clue 01:48:51 well 01:48:56 i think that does roughly what you want 01:49:01 actually prints code 01:49:02 try it 01:49:29 oh seemingly 01:49:58 like just get_ast(funcs["ski apply"]) say 01:50:04 rite 01:50:06 oklopol: but wait 01:50:07 my python is too new, would have to correct a lotta stuff 01:50:09 funcs,asts=clue.compile_all(open(cluefile).read(),stuff.funcs) 01:50:19 oklopol: asts suggests that compile_all might actually already return the asts? 01:50:22 ('ski apply', "Condition: ski type?('#0')\nBase branch (0)\n'#0'\nRec branch (1)\nSubast(0,0):['car', ['cdr', '#0']]\nMain ast: '#1'\nRec branch (2)\nSubast(0,0):['cadar', '#0']\nMain ast: '#1'\nRec branch (3)\nSubast(0,0):['pair', ['cadaar', '#0'], ['car', ['cdr', '#0']]]\nSubast(1,0):['pair', ['cadar', '#0'], ['car', ['cdr', '#0']]]\nSubast(2,0):['pair', '#1', '#2']\nMain ast: '#3'\nRec branch (4)\nSubast(0,0):['car', '#0']\nSubast( 01:50:22 1,0):['pair', '#1', ['car', ['cdr', '#0']]]\nMain ast: '#2'\n") 01:50:23 indeed 01:50:23 that just compiles the clues in the code 01:50:24 :D 01:50:27 oklopol: yes 01:50:28 oklopol: it's in cluetest 01:50:30 oh yeah i guess 01:50:30 oklopol: asts contains the asts 01:50:32 lol :D 01:50:34 oklopol: so you already had all this code :D 01:50:35 indeed! 01:50:43 oklopol, always one step ahead of oklopol 01:50:53 i just skipped it, "don't need the ast... now how to convert funcs to ast" 01:51:17 anyway dunno if i print that nicely anywhere 01:51:25 i might just have been satisfied with that 01:51:27 hmm 01:51:35 for k,v in asts.iteritems(): 01:51:35 print '----', k 01:51:35 print v 01:51:37 does fairly well 01:51:43 shommmme 01:51:48 still not really readable though 01:51:49 oklopol: what 01:51:52 show 01:51:54 oh 01:51:54 okay 01:53:15 oklopol: http://sprunge.us/cERU 01:53:22 oklopol: whether you consider this readable or not is down to personal taste. 01:53:35 oklopol: i would, personally, prefer it outputted in a format "like" clue source, except without all the actual clue-y parts, but :) 01:53:50 well, obviously you need to know how clue works internally 01:53:53 hm is id(x) always true or something 01:53:58 ---- more than 3 01:53:58 Condition: id('#0') 01:54:08 no, it's just the identity function... conditions work kind of weirdly 01:54:10 that would seem to me like (x) is only valid if x is true 01:54:14 oklopol: :D 01:54:20 well see 01:54:25 it's not actually a condition, it's a branch 01:54:48 oklopol: but of course. that's why you've called it a condition 01:55:12 you have an expression, and a function on it, then, certain values of that function correspond to certain codes being executed 01:55:18 and there's always a default branch 01:55:27 elliott: yes :D 01:56:00 "deep first with cutoff" 01:56:11 i like that 01:56:36 ah 01:56:51 oklopol: clue is kind of pretty really, you started off with the most obviously readable and beautiful way to write a program possible (just show what it should do and let the computer figure it out), and have managed to make it completely incomprehensible and difficult 01:56:51 after Base branch, it shows (x) in parens, that's the value of the condition leading to that branch 01:56:56 it's skilful 01:56:57 :D 01:57:20 oklopol: so basically, it does a switch statement (ala C) on the result of the condition? 01:57:27 i assume you know what switch is >_> 01:57:43 elliott: yes, that's the whole point, make a beautiful concept really technical and complicated, while technically keeping the basic idea 01:57:50 elliott: yes! :D 01:58:26 but anyway that is a stupid system, and there's a better one coming, it's just so you have *some* way of doing stuff 01:58:34 :D 01:58:39 it's really annoying when you have say multiple recursive branches 01:59:07 oklopol: i really really have to meet you sometime, i get this feeling you're some kinda being of pure energy 01:59:21 who has three modes, programming, mathing, and normal 01:59:30 the latter seems a bit boring though 01:59:35 i'm a pretty normal dude 01:59:49 oklopol: while programming? 01:59:50 you wouldn't notice me on the street 01:59:57 oklopol: that's why i said, three modes 02:00:01 tru, tru 02:00:04 one normal, the other two oklopol 02:00:49 wait wtf are subasts... 02:00:56 i should ask ilkka how all this works 02:01:00 who is ilkka :D 02:01:03 he's probably the only one who gets it 02:01:07 a uni friend 02:01:11 no no no shut up i want to get this 02:01:15 :P 02:01:17 me too 02:01:18 i want to master the clue 02:01:25 why do you say , isn't <> for quoting multi word names 02:01:35 no 02:01:44 it's for stdlib 02:01:52 maybe 02:01:54 :D 02:01:59 oklopol: :D 02:02:00 oklopol: why 02:02:13 ...i don't knwo 02:02:15 *know 02:03:42 ---- make singleton 02:03:45 Condition: id('#0') 02:03:45 Base branch (None) 02:03:45 ['cons', '#1', '#0'] 02:03:45 wtf is this 02:03:47 :D 02:04:00 :D 02:04:06 make singleton conses two arguments together? maybe i don't know what #0 and #1 are... 02:04:45 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:04:49 oklopol: make singleturn turns x into [x] 02:04:51 so, lol :D 02:05:02 make singleton ~ {. 1 -> [1] 02:05:02 . [1, 2, 3] -> [[1, 2, 3]]} 02:05:02 make singleton ~ ; cons; #[] 02:05:28 "#[]" 02:05:29 ah 02:05:32 wat 02:05:36 oh is that an implicit param 02:05:39 the idea is it gives the empty list as an arg 02:05:42 :D 02:05:42 when it's actually used 02:05:44 cheater 02:05:47 :D 02:05:54 that's how you do constants 02:06:10 it should figure the constants out ITSELF 02:06:18 nonono 02:06:21 can i just omit the hints entirely 02:06:22 in this 02:06:24 and have it still work 02:06:34 will it just try everything 02:06:38 no! that's not what clue is about 02:06:44 i want a brute force :D 02:06:45 "_":(lambda a:0), 02:06:47 dude 02:06:51 you are such a fucking cheat 02:06:54 clue is about doing the drudge work BUT MAKING IT LOOK LIKE YOU'RE JUST GIVING THE RESULT 02:07:09 that's why it's so fucking awesome 02:07:24 oklopol: you stole "drudge work from me"...bitch 02:07:30 *drudge work" from me...bitch 02:07:31 but i mean it's actually pretty nice to read, for simple functions 02:07:41 so mm yeah it's kinda sex 02:08:02 #for i in asts: 02:08:02 # print i 02:08:02 # print asts[i] 02:08:04 # print 02:08:05 i did, i take things people say and use them. that's what i do. 02:08:06 found at the bottom of cluetest.py 02:08:21 oh 02:08:24 . 02:08:45 import clue 02:08:45 clue=reload(clue) 02:08:45 import stuff 02:08:47 stuff=reload(stuff) 02:08:49 lol 02:08:51 so elegant 02:09:02 yeeeah i'm not really into solving trivial problems in sensible ways :D 02:09:07 TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable 02:09:12 that means my code is insufficiently helpful, right? 02:09:14 clueful even 02:09:23 erm hrm, i... dunno, what did your code say? :D 02:09:41 succ ~ {. 0 -> 1 02:09:41 . 1 -> 2} 02:09:41 succ ~ inc 02:09:45 adding ; #1gives: 02:09:49 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 574, in separate_cond 02:09:49 if l[i][0]=="<" and l[i][-1]==">": 02:09:51 TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable 02:09:53 *; #1 gives: 02:10:15 try adding 02:10:39 oklopol: what. 02:10:45 in the bag 02:10:45 oh wait itshould be 02:10:46 right? 02:10:47 not inc 02:10:52 oh that too maybe 02:10:56 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 640, in compile_all 02:10:56 raise DepthLimitException("depth limit exceeded ("+i+")") 02:10:56 clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (succ) 02:10:59 lol ok i'll try too 02:11:03 hehe, yeah 02:11:08 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 648, in compile_all 02:11:08 [i+"("+unfounds[i]+")" for i in compilees if not compilees[i].iscompiled]) 02:11:08 TypeError: exceptions must be classes or instances, not str 02:11:11 oklopol: ...:D 02:11:19 oklopol: you fail at triggering errors 02:11:20 xD 02:11:34 yeeeeeah i use strings as errors, it used to be possible 02:11:40 just frowned upon 02:11:45 i too remember those days 02:11:52 oklopol: frowned upon -- you stole that from me from notch 02:11:54 i hate your guts 02:12:12 oh you came up with that, i see 02:12:23 anyway, gah, can't you get anything to compile? 02:12:43 it shouldn't be *that* hard :( and i'm not saying ur stup i'm saying clue is 02:12:47 oklopol: almost almost almost i can do this 02:13:05 Exception: Can't compile succ() 02:13:06 um okay 02:13:07 why not 02:13:16 huh, 02:13:43 same code? 02:13:57 yeah 02:14:15 succ ~ {. 1 -> 2 02:14:15 . 2 -> 3 02:14:15 . 3 -> 4} 02:14:16 succ ~ ; 02:14:18 added one testcase, didn't help 02:14:32 and compiling crashes huh 02:14:34 oklopol: wait, what is this :. stuff 02:14:41 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:14:42 is that only for recursive shit 02:14:43 recursion 02:14:45 ignore for now 02:14:48 right 02:14:50 eeeerm 02:14:54 so okay 02:14:56 more than 3 ~ {. 0 -> 0 } 02:14:56 more than 3 ~ {. 1 -> 0 } 02:14:56 more than 3 ~ {. 2 -> 0 } 02:14:57 more than 3 ~ {. 3 -> 0 } 02:14:59 stuff in a {} 02:14:59 more than 3 ~ {. 4 -> 1 02:15:01 . 5 -> 1 } 02:15:03 more than 3 ~ ; #0; #1 02:15:05 wait what 02:15:05 should have the same value of condition func 02:15:07 i should add 02:15:09 another {} 02:15:11 around my other testcases? 02:15:13 as in have each be separate 02:15:15 oklopol: right 02:15:27 and can't make all those 3 numbers into the same thing! 02:15:46 succ ~ {. 1 -> 2} 02:15:46 succ ~ {. 2 -> 3} 02:15:46 succ ~ ; 02:15:49 same can't compile error 02:15:55 Exception: Can't compile succ() 02:15:56 grrrr 02:16:11 hmm maybe i have old python as well 02:16:19 i have 2.6 02:16:24 oh i have 3 versions 02:17:45 * oklopol is waiting for ski to compile 02:17:54 ski compiles fine here at least 02:18:19 oklopol: im gonna try a less ambitious function 02:18:20 "is zero 02:18:21 " 02:18:42 took only a minute to compile that 02:18:55 ---- succ 02:18:55 Condition: id('#0') 02:18:56 Base branch (0) 02:18:57 '#1' 02:18:59 Base branch (None) 02:19:01 '#0' 02:19:03 bitches 02:19:05 succ ~ {. 0 -> 1} 02:19:07 succ ~ {. 1 -> 0 02:19:09 . 2 -> 0} 02:19:11 succ ~ ; #0; #1 02:19:13 note: function is actually is zero 02:19:15 not succ 02:19:16 that's wrong tho, isn't it :D 02:19:17 oklopol: wait 02:19:22 are you sure? 02:19:25 I think None matches anything 02:19:28 erm 02:19:40 oklopol: can i make the condition a constant? 02:19:42 yeah but isn't applied is it 02:19:44 oh 02:19:47 sorry 02:19:48 yeah, that's is zero 02:19:48 right 02:19:48 not succ 02:19:49 as i said 02:19:50 :D 02:19:54 oklopol: can i make the condition a constant 02:19:54 yeah yeah 02:19:59 that... should work, yes! 02:19:59 how 02:20:27 hmm erm 02:20:38 :D 02:20:39 _ is a constant 02:20:41 0 02:20:43 ah indeed 02:20:44 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:20:46 so <_> then 02:20:47 the best smiley 02:20:49 and then # gives you constants 02:20:51 but.... 02:20:57 :D 02:21:03 will it actually use them for condition though 02:21:04 :D 02:21:08 or will it try and condition on inc or something stupid like that 02:21:50 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 02:22:02 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 419, in parse_number 02:22:02 return int(code[:i]),code[i:] 02:22:02 ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: '11-' 02:22:03 oklopol: ... 02:22:09 code: 02:22:10 s zero? ~ {. 0 -> 1 } 02:22:10 is zero? ~ {. 1 -> 0 02:22:11 . 2 -> 0 } 02:22:13 is zero? ~ ; #0; #1 02:22:15 succ ~ {. 0 -> 1 02:22:17 1 -> 2 02:22:19 3 -> 4 } 02:22:21 succ ~ <_>; 02:22:23 note distinct lack of "11-" 02:22:34 xD 02:22:46 i... wish i knew what to say 02:23:11 def parse_number(code): 02:23:11 i=0 02:23:12 while i i+=1 02:23:15 return int(code[:i]),code[i:] 02:23:17 NO LIGHT BEING SHED HERE 02:23:19 haha 02:23:22 yeaaaah 02:23:28 :D 02:23:30 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:clue ehird$ python cluetest.py 02:23:30 '0' 02:23:31 '1' 02:23:32 '0]' 02:23:34 '11->22->3' 02:23:36 '11->22->3' 02:23:38 '11->22->3' 02:23:40 that's code at each iteration 02:23:42 i have only one question 02:23:44 what. 02:23:46 how is code growing, it's not even touching code 02:23:48 as in 02:23:52 the loop body is literally += 1 02:23:57 oh because a different call 02:23:58 right 02:24:00 so what i'm saying is 02:24:01 i'm laughing my ass off here 02:24:04 ohh 02:24:07 I forgot the . before the next condition 02:24:10 did you notice that? 02:24:14 no you didn't, because your syntax sucks 02:24:20 or did you notice that and are mocking me 02:24:32 Exception: Can't compile succ() 02:24:34 hahaha fuck me 02:24:42 xD 02:24:54 do the order of hints matter? 02:24:54 i'll start playing too 02:24:58 this looks like fun 02:25:07 i think constants have to go last 02:25:08 yes, last is default. 02:25:08 for some reason :D 02:25:12 nope! 02:25:12 oklopol: default condition? 02:25:15 yeah 02:25:25 Exception: Can't compile succ(<_>) 02:25:27 WHY NOT 02:25:57 oklopol: this is the worst language i have ever used ... was gonna say "game i have ever played", my mind can't really view this as a rational activity 02:26:17 def is_function(a): 02:26:17 try: 02:26:17 a() 02:26:18 except Exception,e: 02:26:20 if str(e)[-12:]=="not callable": 02:26:22 return False 02:26:24 return True 02:26:26 oklopol: ... 02:26:28 oklopol: what on earth made you write that 02:26:43 oklopol: did you not consider any of the other 439857349857345 simpler and faster solutions :D 02:26:43 hmm 02:26:56 :D 02:27:10 i think i didn't want to open a browser 02:27:46 my first program compiled just fine, but lemme try succ 02:28:54 poop ~ {. 0 -> 0 02:28:54 . 1 -> 0 02:28:54 . 2 -> 0 } 02:28:56 poop ~ <_> 02:28:59 oklopol: things your shitty language cannot handle: this function 02:29:01 I think I need ; #0 02:29:15 IT WORKED WOOWOWOWOWO 02:29:20 FUCK 02:29:29 see <> means "this is the condition" 02:29:40 so nothing worked when it was used multiple times 02:29:40 oklopol: ...:DDD 02:29:43 oklopol: not "stdlib"? :D 02:29:49 fucking hell 02:29:53 hhaahahahaahaha 02:29:53 NO 02:29:56 your language is the worst 02:30:04 i thought it was pretty stupid mind :D 02:30:11 oh? 02:30:17 what's wrong with that 02:30:23 oklopol: nothing 02:30:27 oklopol: i meant it being used as stdlib 02:30:31 sounded... really dumb 02:30:38 indeed :D 02:30:46 ---- succ 02:30:46 Condition: _('#0') 02:30:46 Base branch (None) 02:30:48 ['inc', '#0'] 02:30:50 PRAISE THE LORD 02:30:51 i just threw it in the air more like, then started considering it word of god 02:31:16 hmhmm do you have negation in this language perchance 02:31:21 or should i just pretend negative numbers don't exist 02:31:37 succ ~ {. 0 -> 1 . 1 -> 2 } succ ~ ; inc 02:31:45 right, yeah 02:31:51 well you can just sub from zero i suppose 02:31:52 succ ~ {. 0 -> 1 02:31:52 . 1 -> 2 02:31:52 . 2 -> 3 } 02:31:54 succ ~ inc; <_> 02:31:56 oklopol: ^ less stupid ver :P 02:32:21 well that's UR opnn 02:32:33 oklopol: now i just have to figure out how to do "is negative?" 02:32:40 xD 02:33:02 see less than 3 function 02:33:08 ~<>? 02:33:10 does this thing have comments 02:33:18 for a proof of nonexistance of comparison operator 02:33:24 oklopol: which less than three function 02:33:27 i see more than three 02:33:28 no less than three :D 02:33:35 erm yeah that 02:33:48 so are there comments 02:33:51 What language is tis? 02:33:52 i mean in clue code 02:33:54 Sgeo: clue 02:33:54 this 02:33:57 ah 02:34:05 you don't need comments! 02:34:09 the code comments itself! 02:34:10 Eso or noneso, it looks noneso 02:34:12 lemmesee... 02:34:13 lol 02:34:21 i doubt it 02:34:38 write a comment and give it a bag... 02:34:43 Sgeo: eso. 02:34:43 Also, linky to info? Is this a new language youre making now? 02:34:47 THIS IS AN COMMENT HERE RIGHT HERE ~ 02:34:47 Ah 02:34:52 oklopol: comments to erase my undone code :D 02:34:57 ohhhh 02:34:59 Sgeo: it's pretty old actually 02:35:01 yeah sorry, nothing for that. 02:35:07 was wondering why you'd need them 02:35:08 oklopol: maybe i'll hack in a _stop peeking here_ 02:35:28 just strip lines that start with # 02:35:33 oklopol: boring 02:35:35 also more work to comment 02:35:42 Sgeo: basically you show a few examples of inputs and outputs in the function, give a basic list of operations to hint the impl what it needs to do, and it figures out the rest 02:35:46 also nymfokitiara says hi 02:35:48 works surprisingly well with sufficiently disciplined use 02:35:49 Ah, old as in, "we're not making it right now" 02:35:49 oklopol: who is that 02:35:57 a human 02:36:01 Sgeo: pretty cool 02:36:03 oklopol: is it a uni guy 02:36:09 i told we were playing with my clues 02:36:10 no 02:36:13 elliott, that sounds awesome 02:36:16 sgeo *g 02:36:20 Sgeo: oh yeah totally is 02:36:20 i don't know uni guys that irc 02:36:22 i'm a fan 02:36:33 "A Clue program is a string consisting only of 0s and 1s. " 02:36:39 Then what are you talking about? 02:36:40 er no. 02:36:41 that's another clue. 02:36:44 oklopol doesn't use the wiki. 02:36:56 i have a language there 02:37:02 made for the purpose of having a language there 02:37:13 Sgeo: example clue code 02:37:14 * Sgeo lols 02:37:15 make singleton ~ {. 1 -> [1] 02:37:15 . [1, 2, 3] -> [[1, 2, 3]]} 02:37:15 make singleton ~ ; cons; #[] 02:37:17 pair ~ {. 1, 2 -> [1, 2] 02:37:19 . [3], [4, 5] -> [[3], [4, 5]]} 02:37:21 pair ~ ; make singleton; cons 02:37:23 Sgeo: pretty obvious to see how that works 02:37:26 the ; stuff is hints 02:37:35 the {. ...} are example inputs -> outputs 02:37:41 but, once you start using recursion, things get slightly more hairy. 02:37:48 oklopol: only slightly! 02:37:54 i think it is pretty obviously the best language? 02:38:14 well, that is obvious ofc 02:38:25 Sgeo: example of recursion, very obvious code here: 02:38:25 Is it implemented? 02:38:26 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:38:27 ski apply ~ {. 3 -> 3 02:38:27 . [2, 2] -> [2, 2] } 02:38:27 ski apply ~ {:. [1, [1, 2]] -> 2 02:38:29 : [1, 2] -> 2 } 02:38:29 yes 02:38:31 ski apply ~ {:. [[2, [1, 3]], 2] -> 3 02:38:33 : [1, 3] -> 3 } 02:38:35 ski apply ~ {:. [[[3, [2, 2]], [2, 1]], 5] -> [2, 1] 02:38:37 : [[2, 2], 5] -> 2 02:38:39 : [[2, 1], 5] -> 1 02:38:41 : [2, 1] -> [2, 1] 02:38:43 :. [[[3, 1], 1], 1] -> 1 02:38:45 : [1, 1] -> 1 02:38:47 : [1, 1] -> 1 02:38:49 : [1, 1] -> 1 } 02:38:51 ski apply ~ {:. [[[[1, 2], 1], 2], 1] -> 1 02:38:53 : [[[1, 2], 1], 2] -> 1 02:38:55 : [1, 1] -> 1 02:38:57 :. [[[[[3, 2], 3], 2], 3], 1] -> 3 02:38:58 I'm too tired and stressed to think about all that 02:38:59 : [[[[3, 2], 3], 2], 3] -> [2, 3] 02:39:01 : [[2, 3], 1] -> 3 } 02:39:03 ski apply ~ 02:39:05 ski apply ~ pair; car; cdr; cadaar; cadar 02:39:07 Sgeo: yes, it is implemented 02:39:07 clue <3 02:39:11 obviously figuring out that ski apply just takes like a second 02:39:13 the examples illuminate it all 02:39:15 and the hints only make it obvious 02:39:36 btw, if you could write all that as actual ski code, it might make *even more* sense, if possible 02:39:44 * Sgeo is too tired to try to understand anything 02:39:49 and stressed 02:39:49 oklopol: 02:39:56 $ python cluetest.py 02:39:57 -1] wtf 02:39:57 Traceback (most recent call last): 02:39:58 ... 02:40:00 TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable 02:40:04 es I did just say that 02:40:04 oklopol: i don't think it likes negatives 02:40:18 I think I'm going to explode in a Trogdor 02:40:35 I wa recently linked to H*R somehwere, btpobably TVTropes 02:40:48 you can add new commands if you like 02:40:58 i just added what i absolutely needed for ski, and a few other completely random ones 02:41:01 What are the Clue primitives? 02:41:06 comparison would be very nice 02:41:13 Sgeo: there are very few, but you can do stuff with lists and numbers 02:41:15 funcs={"cons":cons, 02:41:15 "car":car, 02:41:15 "cdr":cdr, 02:41:17 "id":identity, 02:41:19 "dec":decrement, 02:41:21 "inc":increment, 02:41:23 "add":add, 02:41:25 "empty":empty, 02:41:27 "is list?":islist, 02:41:29 "_":(lambda a:0), 02:41:31 "compare":compare} 02:41:33 oklopol: 02:41:35 remember how you said 02:41:37 nonexistence of a compare function 02:41:39 well uh 02:41:41 ... 02:41:43 def compare(a,b): 02:41:45 if a==b:return 0 02:41:47 if a return 1 02:41:51 :DDDDDDDDD 02:41:53 oklopol, adding features before he even realised 02:41:59 =P 02:42:00 asdf 02:42:10 what, compare is there? :D 02:42:15 oklopol: EVIDENTLY 02:42:19 * Sgeo compares oklopol 02:42:25 have you written a doc or sth oklopol? 02:42:43 hagb4rd: you're not a regular are ya? :P 02:42:50 :D 02:42:52 normal 02:42:54 oklopol: 02:42:56 if code[0].isdigit(): 02:42:56 return parse_number(code) 02:42:57 but in parse_number 02:43:00 while i but no, i have not 02:43:08 oklopol: i like how you've made sure it can parse such numbers as 3--2-1309324-2-34 02:43:10 there's a reference imp, and there's the ski program 02:43:15 oklopol: yet neglected to actually allow initial - 02:43:16 :D 02:43:27 :D 02:43:32 * elliott fixes 02:43:35 oh man still doesn't work 02:43:36 oh wait 02:43:38 my code was bork 02:43:51 oklopol: also syntax errors don't actually stop the program... 02:43:57 TypeError: compare() takes exactly 2 arguments (1 given) 02:44:04 can this thing actually "do" multi arg conditions 02:44:31 things can take multiple args 02:44:38 ski apply is an example of that 02:44:41 didn't you see it? 02:44:43 oklopol: yeah but 02:44:47 oklopol: can you do where foo takes 2 args 02:44:54 and if so, how do you get clue not to die by trying it with one 02:45:05 that i don't know, because compare has probably never been tried :D 02:45:05 lol 02:45:12 ohhh 02:45:16 well umm 02:45:19 conditions are kinda special... 02:45:23 ...:D 02:45:24 they can not take two args xD 02:45:32 oklopol: if i made a wrapper for compare 02:45:35 that takes it as a two-arg list 02:45:40 oklopol: then would that work? 02:45:42 just have as condition 02:45:46 and compare in bag 02:45:46 it'd have to call pair in the condition of course 02:45:48 oklopol: er how 02:45:50 okay 02:45:51 but how 02:45:51 Take it, take it, take it, I've gont tloco 02:45:56 Sgeo: leave 02:45:59 ~ ; compare 02:46:03 as you already realized 02:46:10 Sorry, just in a weird mood 02:46:36 somehow i thought giving the condition func would make things faster or whatever, but it's just fucking stupid 02:46:41 ---- is negative? 02:46:41 Condition: id('#0') 02:46:41 Base branch (None) 02:46:43 '#1' 02:46:45 Base branch (0) 02:46:47 '#0' 02:46:49 Base branch (1) 02:46:51 '#1' 02:46:53 oklopol: i dont think that'll actually work 02:46:55 *don't 02:46:56 almost there 02:46:57 it doesn't really call compare at ... all 02:46:59 need more testcases? 02:47:06 show code 02:47:07 oh lol my test was wrong too 02:47:24 oklopol: oh my god, it just figured out what zero is 02:47:34 lmao 02:47:35 Condition: id(['compare', '#0', ['compare', '#0', '#0']]) 02:47:36 oklopol: look 02:47:39 oklopol: it's a genius 02:47:46 xD 02:47:55 oklopol: it wanted 0, but despite the fact that it was _given_ 0, 02:47:56 - You are sitting in a chair. - 02:48:00 oklopol: it compares it to itself to get it 02:48:04 oklopol: wait what... 02:48:08 Base branch (-1) 02:48:08 '#1' 02:48:09 Base branch (0) 02:48:10 '#0' 02:48:12 Base branch (1) 02:48:14 '#0' 02:48:16 isn't #0 the param her 02:48:18 e 02:48:18 Wild shiny mon found. 02:48:19 i'm laughing so goddamn loudly right now 02:48:20 ...well whatever :D 02:48:20 Bitching. 02:48:34 elliott: show code? 02:48:37 elliott: have you heard about that embarassing DOS bug in php that they have found monday? 02:48:41 oklopol: i think, if you have 0, 1, and compare, and you want 0, choosing compare(x,x) to get it is an inspired solution 02:48:44 Caught. 02:48:54 cheater00: yes, but i'd rather forget php exists. also the bug is rather subtle and not _all_ that stupid 02:48:54 dos? cheater 02:49:06 elliott: how is that stupid? 02:49:13 cheater00: ? 02:49:17 s//not/ 02:49:41 elliott: how is that not stupid? 02:49:55 Linky? 02:49:57 they copypasted code from someone who didn't know wtf they were doing. 02:50:02 cheater00: no, they didn't 02:50:15 cheater00: it was to do with an edge-case on x87 vs sse 02:50:15 elliott: can i get your negative number parsing code? 02:50:32 if code[0].isdigit() or code[0]=='-': 02:50:32 return parse_number(code) 02:50:33 oklopol: in parse_object 02:50:37 that's it, the rest you already wrote :D 02:50:40 they didn't even write an exhaustive unit test for it which would have taken, only once executed, a minuscule amount of time. 02:50:52 cheater00: unit tests are stupid. 02:50:57 executing them only once is doubly so. 02:50:59 they test units 02:51:02 something they hadn't done 02:51:12 you only need to test code once every time it changes 02:51:14 cheater00: enjoy enumerating every floating point value lol 02:51:25 this ain't 32-bit land 02:51:44 exhaustive doesn't mean every value 02:51:49 exhaustive means every important value 02:52:02 ah, so basically what you are saying is: they should have predicted the bug perfectly 02:52:08 since when are you such a php fanboi? 02:52:12 i hate php, php devs are idiots, but this bug is subtle and not something i would expect anyone to catch. 02:52:18 every decision they make is idiotic. 02:52:25 yes 02:52:28 at least we agree on that 02:52:32 but it's like saying, oh, "john mccain raped me and my sister for five days on end and that's why he's terrible" 02:52:37 no, that's stupid, he's terrible for entirely other reasons? 02:52:46 bad metaphor prize 02:52:48 goes to me~~ 02:52:50 now back to clue 02:52:54 oklopol: okay so i am going to see if it can NEGATE 02:53:00 a little enjoyment hasn't hurt anyone so far 02:53:03 :D 02:54:07 oklopol: so to subtract i use the add function despite the fact thaty ou have decrement :D 02:54:08 *that you 02:54:14 because there's no subtract functin 02:54:15 *function 02:54:34 what bout addin neg numbers 02:54:38 oh wait 02:54:45 oklopol: lol... you can't actually do negate i don't think 02:54:50 oklopol: -x = 0-x = 0+-x 02:54:55 so to do negate with add, you need negate 02:55:07 oklopol: care to try and do negate or subtract as a recursive fn? :D 02:55:32 well you could start incing and deccing in both sides of a pair 02:55:36 until one reaches 0 02:55:43 oklopol: wait what 02:55:45 erm 02:55:52 well something like that, i mean there's a workaround 02:55:54 anyhows 02:55:59 you could just ass sub... 02:56:04 NO 02:56:05 THAT'S CHEATING 02:56:09 :D 02:56:09 this platonic core will be perfect forever 02:56:11 *add btw 02:56:18 oklopol: you write the subtract or negate function (negate is more useful for me fwiw) 02:56:20 elliott, want to get stats on block count so far in building that castle with hmod + worldedit + craftbook? 02:56:25 oklopol: wait, why don't we just use lists of [] 02:56:28 oklopol: to denote naturals 02:56:30 Vorpal: uh sure 02:56:31 elliott, even though it is just a shell it is rather massive 02:57:39 elliott, 596516 stone (note, area uneven, might include 5-10 deep into ground). 62806 obsidian. 968 lightstone. 829 torch. 02:57:46 oh so like 2 minute work 02:57:47 plus a number of other ones 02:57:58 elliott, no, more like half a day of work 02:58:06 3 minute :D 02:58:08 elliott, also some cool redstone stuff :P 02:58:13 elliott, that took time 02:58:23 elliott, like the automated arrow shooting battery 02:58:27 lol 02:58:31 oklopol: so is negate done yet 02:58:37 anyway whats the clue of clue, but making comments useless :p 02:58:44 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6778978682.txt 02:59:01 elliott, flip a lever, watch it shoot. Then watch notch poor code for arrows over network lag the thing to hell 02:59:17 oklopol: excuse me, i meant in clue 02:59:27 :P 02:59:36 that was almost as hard 02:59:41 some respect man 03:00:04 oklopol: i just don't see how you can write negate in clue at all :D 03:00:10 i really want to know 03:00:13 you can compare with 0 03:00:19 oklopol: and? 03:00:30 so whether it's negative or positive, you'll find it if you go both directions 03:00:39 erm 03:00:44 that's just comparison with 0 03:00:57 if you know it's negative, then just inc until 0, and inc twice on other track 03:01:11 you'll end up with (0, abs(n)) 03:01:12 what if dont? 03:01:15 i 03:01:21 oklopol: no don't do abs, i'm trying to do abs USING negate :D 03:01:22 fuck you man 03:01:30 you're like 03:01:32 skipping ahead 03:01:41 nono i didn't write abs 03:01:45 i just meant 03:01:50 erm 03:01:56 yeah true 03:02:01 but anyway the algo i gave is just for negate 03:02:13 and it requires a bit of list fiddling, but shouldn't be too hard 03:02:28 oklopol: ok then ... teach me how to recurse :D 03:02:36 i'd love to! 03:02:57 * hagb4rd gets some popcorn 03:03:20 if you have like (three points) a -> b (two points) c -> d 03:03:39 then, a is transformed into c, and a and d are transformed into b 03:03:43 wait wait 03:03:46 i need to brb for ooone sec 03:04:58 oklopol: back 03:05:05 okay, well that's recursion 03:05:07 oklopol: what are points 03:05:08 like 03:05:10 three = :. 03:05:12 two = :? 03:05:17 allya 03:05:21 *ya 03:05:23 good you ask 03:05:27 a and d transformed into b ... what 03:05:36 oh i see 03:06:02 oklopol: so basically, "given f(c) = d, f(a) = b, where c comes from a and b uses a and d"? 03:06:13 :D 03:06:23 yes 03:06:38 obvious right 03:06:40 oklopol: is that ":D how does anyone else but me understand this" :P 03:07:17 well. kind of, i wasn't actually surprised, more like yay ehird so smart i don't have to explain eeeeverything. 03:07:39 oklopol: i feel vaguely insulted :D 03:07:50 that's really all there is to recursion, and it is one of the things i like best about clue 03:07:54 oklopol: ok so base cases are done with onedots 03:07:58 oklopol: and then i have separate blocks with recursion 03:08:00 yarr 03:08:05 right 03:08:09 so (0,x) -> x and (x,0) -> x 03:08:10 btw remember it's just the amt of blocks, you can say ... as well 03:08:13 ...important right 03:08:18 yeah? for this abs subfunction thing 03:08:19 oklopol: wut 03:08:26 what's ... 03:08:26 soooomething like that 03:08:35 ":." = ".:" = "..." 03:08:40 oklopol: ah. :P 03:08:45 oklopol: i bet you were real proud of that 03:08:50 what are FOUR DOTS 03:08:51 :D 03:08:58 examples 03:09:01 general examples 03:09:03 test cases 03:09:24 documentation 03:09:31 oklopol: are five dots like 03:09:32 design documents 03:09:44 what about six dots, are six dots the one-sentence summary of how the code works 03:10:00 :D 03:10:11 maybe five could actually be comments 03:10:13 that would be... 03:10:20 ::. 03:10:32 oklopol: do the order of ~{} blocks matter? 03:10:49 well 03:10:55 now that i've given this thing some thought 03:11:00 i'm pretty sure they don't really 03:11:06 but, i'd but the default case last 03:11:34 what if there is no default case? 03:11:52 good q 03:12:01 leave it empty? 03:12:12 don't specify it, one would assume 03:12:18 i think there will always be one 03:12:27 oklopol: okay so wait what tuple do abs(-5) and abs(5) start out with? 03:12:30 for the loop 03:12:43 which is actually bad for further inference, you should definitely be able to make things fail 03:13:00 well i'd do negate separately 03:13:16 oklopol: okay what tuple do negate(-5) and negate(5) start with :D 03:13:17 help a retard here 03:13:32 well erm 03:13:36 i'd write those separately too 03:13:39 negate positive 03:13:43 negate negative 03:13:45 and then 03:13:53 negate negative starts with (-5, -5) 03:13:54 Console Hacking 2010 Part 2 - Chaos Communication Congress 03:13:59 oklopol: what about negate positive 03:14:00 and the rules is to (inc, inc inc) 03:14:02 Is this stuff that will be educational to me? 03:14:06 I seem to be learning 03:14:28 Sgeo: clue is VERY educational, yes 03:14:31 oklopol: okay wait negative negative, 03:14:36 oklopol: so that goes 03:14:39 (-4, -3) 03:14:43 oklopol, I'm talking about a talk 03:14:43 yes 03:14:44 (-2, -1) 03:14:45 exactly 03:14:46 About PS3 security 03:14:46 (-3, 1) 03:14:47 Sgeo: i know 03:14:51 oklopol: do we keep going? 03:14:54 (-2, 2) 03:14:57 (-1, 4) 03:14:58 (0, 5) 03:14:58 dont try it at home 03:14:58 :DD 03:14:59 oh wow 03:15:04 ok so it's 0,x -> x 03:15:10 yes, do that last 03:15:23 i'm sure you'll be able to translate that to clue 03:15:34 oklopol: hey i don't even need recursion do i 03:15:37 wait do i 03:15:40 oh, yes, i do 03:15:41 don't I? 03:15:42 yes, i do 03:15:48 you just need it for the loop 03:16:10 erm.... 03:16:17 quite hard :D 03:16:22 except you could also just write a program that adds the number to itself, twice 03:16:25 i mean... 03:16:26 wait what 03:16:30 oklopol: ...or that, yes 03:16:31 "just negate it, then" 03:16:34 oklopol: can clue do that? 03:16:39 it certainly can 03:16:46 what it can't do is negate 03:16:49 i mean 03:16:51 if you're not using that 03:16:54 oklopol: right, negate negative is easy 03:16:56 oklopol: negate positive won't be 03:17:14 whreres the difference? 03:17:20 no negate negative won't be easy! 03:17:36 the idea doesn't work, because you'd need to negate so you could negate 03:17:47 you need to add the negation twice! 03:17:50 oh, duh 03:17:53 :D 03:18:11 okay so let's see, i'll write this in a language this is actually easy and obvious in and then translate 03:18:17 f (0,y) = y 03:18:24 f (x,y) = f (x+1, y+2) 03:18:25 SO 03:18:46 f (x,y) = x where x = f (a, b); a = x+1; b = y+2 03:18:59 When it says geohot glitched .. something with the RAM, not entirely sure, do they mean physically? 03:19:08 oklopol: 03:19:09 negate negative ~ {:. a, b -> c 03:19:09 : a+1, b+1 -> c } 03:19:16 oklopol: i just need to fill in this template a few times, right? 03:19:17 erm 03:19:18 *b+2 03:19:24 Yes 03:19:38 "It required really annoying hardware to pull off" 03:19:44 yes, i believe so 03:20:02 and don't forget base case ofc 03:20:28 negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 03:20:28 : -4, -3 -> 5 03:20:28 : -2, -1 -> 5 03:20:30 : -3, 1 -> 5 03:20:32 : -2, 2 -> 5 03:20:34 : -1, 4 -> 5 03:20:35 : 0, 5 -> 5 } 03:20:37 oklopol: is that... correct? 03:20:46 sure, although you don't need that much 03:20:50 erm 03:20:53 noooooo 03:21:04 everything after -4 -3 is excess 03:21:11 the -5 -5 case is not using all that 03:21:15 just one level is given 03:21:20 ah 03:21:31 do i need more than one example? 03:21:32 or will that one do 03:21:40 point is to allow it to just brute force one layer instead of always going to base case 03:21:51 oklopol: btw i disagree with how you indent these things, IMO the : for subcase should be aligned with the . for supercase 03:21:56 then the two x -> ys get aligned 03:21:58 :D 03:22:01 one may do, one may not, i don't really have an intuition for that atm 03:22:44 TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable 03:22:46 yaaaaaay 03:23:21 oh 03:23:25 turns out negative negative != negate negative 03:23:49 ---- negate negative 03:23:49 Condition: is zero?('#0') 03:23:49 Rec branch (0) 03:23:50 Subast(0,0):['inc', '#0'] 03:23:52 Subast(0,1):['inc', ['inc', '#0']] 03:23:54 Main ast: '#2' 03:23:56 Base branch (1) 03:23:58 '#1' 03:24:00 oklopol: holy shit, it actually works. 03:24:26 oklopol: and negate positive is just the same except it's x, 0 and we do dec/dec dec, right? 03:24:27 yeah 03:24:35 i believe this to be the case. 03:24:37 always wondered y -1*1 makes -1.. thats kind of evil 03:24:38 :D 03:24:43 hagb4rd: ...what 03:24:44 yo dawg, i heard you like negation 03:24:48 hagb4rd: x*1 = x 03:25:16 ok so far 03:25:22 hagb4rd: let x = -1 03:25:25 ergo -1*1 = -1 03:25:33 no 03:25:43 umm...yes 03:25:56 hagb4rd: both (-1)*1 and -(1*1) are -1, of course, even if for slightly different reasons 03:25:57 its an axiome..isnt it? 03:26:17 or rather both follow from x*1 = x actually 03:26:48 hagb4rd: x*1 = x 03:26:54 hagb4rd: do you accept that this is true no matter what x is? 03:26:55 1 of x is x. 03:26:56 hagb4rd: yes, x*1 = x is one of the field axioms 03:26:58 x times 1 is x. 03:27:04 yes? 03:27:06 yes elliott.. 03:27:22 hagb4rd: let us suppose that x = -1. so we have x*1 = x. expanding x's value, we have (-1)*1 = (-1). 03:27:25 is that so hard? 03:27:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:27:36 elliott: you needed just one recursion case? 03:27:43 i needed 2 03:27:44 oklopol: yup, guess clue is magical 03:27:47 oklopol: also negate positive works 03:27:53 it is also true that (-a)*b = -(a*b) for all a and b 03:27:56 negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 03:27:56 : -4, -3 -> 5 } 03:27:56 negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 03:27:58 . 0, 2 -> 2 03:28:00 . 0, 3 -> 3 } 03:28:02 negate negative ~ ; inc 03:28:04 oklopol: guess i am a better clue programmer than you? 03:28:07 :D 03:28:15 maybe! 03:28:17 oklopol: what's your code 03:28:49 you could have -a*b = b .. isnt it a question of notation? 03:28:50 clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (negate) 03:28:51 oh come on 03:28:51 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1551824545.txt 03:29:04 hagb4rd: so negative one times two apples is two apples? 03:29:14 hagb4rd: also, you can have 2*2 = 72. 03:29:17 hagb4rd: um -a*b usually parses as -(a*b) 03:29:20 the fact is that * is an operation defined by certain facts about it. 03:29:21 so maybe that's the reason you only needed one 03:29:23 it's kinda random ofc 03:29:34 i think some programming languages violate that, though 03:29:58 thx oerjan.. 03:30:06 oklopol: oh i think i might actually need a non-inner loop version... 03:30:07 for negate 03:30:18 or maybe i just need to give it id 03:30:21 you just check if it's pos or neg and negate 03:30:27 thats the direction i wanted to get it goin 03:30:34 negate ~ {. -1 -> 1 03:30:34 . -2 -> 2 03:30:34 . -3 -> 3 } 03:30:36 negate ~ {. 0 -> 0 03:30:38 . 1 -> -1 03:30:40 . 2 -> -2 } 03:30:42 negate ~ ; negate negative; negate positive; id 03:30:44 oklopol: goes all depth limit, 03:30:46 oklopol: because negate X takes two arguments 03:30:48 I want it to give them both as the same 03:30:50 but i don't know if it's smart enough to 03:30:51 hagb4rd: but it is still true that both the obvious parsing candidates give the same final value 03:31:21 it should certainly be smart enough for that :\ 03:31:26 hmmhmm 03:31:38 also -a*b = b holds for a = -1 or b = 0 03:31:51 i mean it can deduce things like cadar 03:32:29 what's is negative?` 03:32:37 is negative? ~ {. -1 -> 1 03:32:37 . -2 -> 1 } 03:32:37 is negative? ~ {. 0 -> 0 } 03:32:39 is negative? ~ {. 1 -> 0 03:32:41 . 2 -> 0 } 03:32:43 is negative? ~ ; compare; #0; #1 03:32:45 i think it might infer wrong ... 03:32:49 ---- is negative? 03:32:50 Condition: id(['compare', '#0', ['compare', '#0', '#0']]) 03:32:51 Base branch (-1) 03:32:53 '#1' 03:32:55 Base branch (0) 03:32:57 '#0' 03:32:59 Base branch (1) 03:33:01 '#0' 03:33:03 that seems very suspicious to me 03:33:09 seems to work 03:33:12 erm 03:33:27 yeah 03:33:30 are you sure :D 03:33:39 ummmmmmm 03:33:44 no. 03:33:58 is #0 the zeroth arg or is it a zero 03:34:20 i do not know :D 03:34:26 i think it' the zeroth arg 03:34:26 *it's 03:34:27 but that makes like ... no sense 03:34:28 BUT bear in mind 03:34:33 I do have "#0; #1" 03:34:34 so it could be both 03:35:19 oklopol: just tested in console 03:35:21 it is correct 03:35:36 >>> _['negate negative'](-5,-5) 03:35:36 1 03:35:39 ... 03:35:39 :D 03:35:52 oh needs to be [-5,-5] 03:35:57 or not, no 03:36:06 >>> _['negate positive'](5,5) 03:36:06 2 03:36:14 oklopol: you're lying to me about how these constructs work ... or something 03:37:08 oklopol: :/ 03:37:33 oklopol: any ideas :D 03:37:47 umm...... 03:37:50 hmm. 03:38:03 i mean the _actual test case_ is failing 03:38:14 maybe is fucking it up somehow...naw 03:38:41 weirdness man 03:38:53 * elliott tries things 03:39:07 the fact is that * is an operation defined by certain facts about it. <-- so multiplication of a negative and a positive value results in a negative value,yes..it may be a metaphysical question, but i wonder if it's based on a natural law or just another entropy 03:39:20 oerjan: do you have the swatter? 03:39:27 oerjan: it is _really_ desperately needed. 03:40:00 oklopol: ok mine can't even figure out a one-arg negate negative :D 03:40:22 oklopol: i think our implementations are subtly different now :/ 03:40:49 i'll finish mine, and try to come up with why you can't 03:40:52 then 03:41:52 oklopol: gimme your current src tree and i'll diff it against mine 03:42:04 meh meh 03:42:10 oh what you mean clue.py? 03:42:58 oklopol: yes 03:43:00 also stuff.py 03:44:03 okky 03:45:39 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2332981772.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1364929955.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9712658752.txt 03:46:33 oklopol: okay, you have negate built in obvs 03:46:43 "function should be have" 03:46:44 be have :D 03:47:14 oklopol: the only cluedifferences we have are that i fixed the exception messages differently 03:47:16 *clue differences 03:47:29 cluetest mine is just a bit more featured 03:47:34 print funcs["is negative?"](-7) # --> 3 03:47:36 nice comment 03:48:14 :D 03:48:24 hey i can't get this little pecker to compile 03:48:59 ohh 03:49:01 im stupid lol 03:49:04 have youever felt 03:49:04 stupid? 03:49:14 no wait 03:49:18 clue is still the stupid one 03:49:29 hey 03:49:52 something wrong with parsing maybe, because negate negative works, but negate positive doesn't, even though i just changed signs 03:49:57 maybe my error 03:50:47 oklopol: :D 03:50:51 oerjan.. hmm.. okay.. so if -ab is kind of a short to notation to -1*a*b*.. there is no need to think in cases of negative or positive, right?.. makes sence 03:50:53 oklopol: probably, yes 03:50:56 oklopol: since the recursion is different 03:51:20 it's really not 03:51:55 and it's parsing that fails 03:51:57 aha 03:52:00 i'm just fixin' my negate negative 03:52:02 oklopol: weird 03:52:04 oklopol: what error 03:52:10 as can easily be seen from the error message........... 03:52:17 Traceback (most recent call last): 03:52:17 File "C:\stuff}clue\cluetest.py", line 10, in 03:52:17 funcs,asts=clue.compile_all(open(cluefile).read(),stuff.funcs) 03:52:17 File "C:\stuff}clue\clue.py", line 618, in compile_all 03:52:17 compilees=parse(code) 03:52:17 File "C:\stuff}clue\clue.py", line 596, in parse 03:52:17 clues[i]=stuff_to_clue(tokenized[i]) 03:52:18 File "C:\stuff}clue\clue.py", line 589, in stuff_to_clue 03:52:19 cond,others=separate_cond(helpers) 03:52:19 TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable 03:52:24 what kind of piece of shit wrote this thing 03:52:31 I WANT FUCKING ERROR MESSAGES 03:52:47 the guy was probably like 03:52:48 oklopol: ahh ,yes, i remember that error 03:52:51 hey if you make amistake 03:52:51 oklopol: show me your code? 03:52:54 i remember fixing that 03:52:54 fuck you, you suck 03:52:58 oklopol: i think you forgot to specify clues 03:53:00 you got a name wrong somewhere 03:53:05 check your names 03:53:47 clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (really negate positive) 03:54:29 >>> _['negate positive'](5,5) 03:54:30 ['nothing here'] 03:54:30 so 03:54:30 it turns out 03:54:30 i got a name wrong 03:54:30 oklopol: what 03:54:32 >>> _['negate positive'](5,5) 03:54:33 ['nothing here'] 03:54:35 oklopol: what 03:54:38 somewhere 03:54:42 ARE YOU A WITCH 03:54:48 i noticed when i checked my names 03:54:52 oklopol: excuse me 03:54:54 why is it doing that 03:55:04 if depth_lim==0: 03:55:04 return ["nothing here"] 03:55:04 huh 03:55:40 ...que 03:55:48 oh erm hrm 03:55:55 :D 03:56:00 "sorry" 03:56:15 ohh 03:56:17 duh 03:56:18 i made a mistake 03:56:21 and your impl was all like 03:56:22 "fuck you" 03:56:25 "stop making mistakes" 03:57:15 hmmhmm 03:57:23 yeah 03:57:27 it occasionally does that 03:57:51 ---- negate 03:57:52 Condition: is negative?('#0') 03:57:52 Base branch (1) 03:57:53 ['negate negative', '#0', '#0'] 03:57:55 Base branch (0) 03:57:57 ['negate positive', '#0', '#0'] 03:57:59 oklopol: do i win prize 03:58:01 it's not the most user friendly thing 03:58:43 ---- abs 03:58:43 Condition: is negative?('#0') 03:58:43 Base branch (1) 03:58:44 ['negate', '#0'] 03:58:46 Base branch (0) 03:58:48 '#0' 03:58:50 oklopol: can i get prize? 03:59:18 elliot scores 5dots 03:59:44 that's nice 03:59:44 nicer than mine, surely 03:59:44 in my defense, i was just gonna do negate negative, not all of negate 03:59:54 elliott: well i finished before you, so prolly not 03:59:56 wlel 03:59:59 *well 04:00:02 oklopol: did you get abs before me 04:00:05 :( 04:00:11 oklopol: well then 04:00:17 oklopol: i will just have to figure out subtraction 04:00:22 i haven't done abs! 04:00:23 didn't notice that sry 04:00:31 the second mouse gets the cheese 04:00:31 :D 04:00:42 yeah i couldn't have seen how that's done 04:00:56 it's like you... meh i'm not even gonna try 04:01:38 subtract ~ {. 1, 3 -> -2 04:01:38 . 2, 1 -> 1 04:01:38 . -3, -2 -> -1 } 04:01:38 well, that's pretty simple..... except you need to do positives and negatives separately again :D 04:01:39 subtract ~ <_>; add; negate 04:01:43 ... 04:01:44 ---- subtract 04:01:44 Condition: _('#0') 04:01:45 yeah umm 04:01:45 Base branch (None) 04:01:47 ['add', '#0', ['negate', '#1']] 04:01:49 oklopol: sure, i did 04:01:49 i'm a serious fucking retard 04:01:54 yep 04:02:02 oklopol: here's my code 04:02:05 forgot add exists 04:02:11 oklopol: http://sprunge.us/DFfN 04:02:11 :D 04:02:16 oklopol: to be honest add shouldn't exist. 04:02:24 :P 04:02:34 oklopol: in fact, nothing should exist except pairs and one non-pair object 04:02:44 oklopol: no multiple arguments, that's done with pairs 04:02:53 zero? 04:02:59 no, nil or something 04:03:03 you do realize *ski* takes 20 seconds to compile, and functions are executed about a million times when you compile somethin 04:03:04 g 04:03:06 oklopol: indeed, in a sufficiently advanced implementation, functions would be represented as lists in this kind 04:03:07 :D 04:03:19 oklopol: yeah so since it's useless, let's make it good and useless 04:03:54 btw i was close to adding higher order functions to the impl, not really any more work, but would be fucking awesome 04:04:05 i mean just think about the clue definition of map 04:04:20 mmmm 04:04:25 oklopol: see, like i said, do functions as lists 04:04:32 oklopol: then you already have it all :D 04:04:36 just have an apply function 04:04:40 taking an object and an objects 04:04:45 object = pair object object | nil 04:04:58 nah 04:04:58 and "foo" in examples is just a reference to that object ofc 04:05:04 oklopol: whyever not :D 04:05:21 because it's pretty much perfect now 04:05:30 it just needs MORE stuff, and a better conditional 04:05:42 oklopol: this would be more stuff 04:05:42 done 04:05:44 with LESS stuff 04:05:45 hagb4rd: the rule -(a*b) = (-a)*b holds for more than just ordinary numbers, it holds for any ring including those where you cannot distinguish positive and negative elements. 04:07:27 > all [ -(a*b) == (-a)*b | a <- [0 .. 255::Word8], b <- [0 .. 255::Word8]] 04:07:28 Couldn't match expected type `a -> GHC.Bool.Bool' 04:07:28 against inferred ... 04:07:31 eek 04:07:37 oh 04:07:39 heeeeeeey 04:07:41 CLUE BOT :D 04:07:43 > and [ -(a*b) == (-a)*b | a <- [0 .. 255::Word8], b <- [0 .. 255::Word8]] 04:07:44 True 04:07:54 oklopol: but you have no expression syntax :D 04:07:58 so how ya gonna test things 04:08:05 hagb4rd: Word8 being one such ring, arithmetic mod 256 04:08:25 elliott: i'm not proud of this but... clue was supposed to have main 04:08:34 oklopol: ...i'm disgusted 04:08:35 Do you think there should be any BytePusher related stuff in the esoteric programming files archive? 04:08:35 fuck off 04:09:14 elliott: no u 04:09:17 but yeah 04:09:31 oklopol: all you have to do is write another parser then 04:09:31 OMG 04:09:33 that's a bit... impure, really i'd prefer that you can't actually run the programs! 04:09:35 oklopol: or reuse the existing one 04:09:35 ...like now! 04:09:54 elliott: i was thinking 04:10:00 you just give the bot definitions 04:10:05 oklopol: func~{1,2} 04:10:07 and then you can give it mains which are expressions 04:10:08 will the parser parse that? 04:10:13 erm 04:10:14 or maybe func ~ 1; 2 04:10:17 right you would need to parse... 04:10:31 oklopol: basically, what can the parser parse that's nested reasonably :D 04:10:35 apart from list literals 04:10:51 nothing else i suppose 04:10:56 clue doesn't have logical nesting 04:11:10 oklopol: recursion duh 04:11:16 oklopol: ok if you just extend the parser a tiny bit 04:11:17 we can have 04:11:18 i mean in syntax 04:11:24 every expression is parsed as 04:11:26 foo~{...} 04:11:27 -!- azaq231 has joined. 04:11:28 where ... is the expr 04:11:29 so you can enter 04:11:30 and by logical i meant control 04:11:40 or what's it called 04:11:43 non-data 04:11:58 :. func, 1, x, 2 -> result; func2, 34 -> x 04:11:59 that's 04:12:03 func(1, func2(34), 2) 04:12:07 erm 04:12:10 :. func, 1, x, 2 -> result : func2, 34 -> x 04:12:11 ofc 04:12:39 yeah you could have something like that in a bot 04:12:50 oklopol: i mean all you have to do is keep strings you can't parse 04:12:55 then 'foo~{'+x+'}' 04:12:58 oklopol: i mean you don't need to write a parser 04:13:04 this gives you expressions for FREE 04:13:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:13:53 or you could just have somekinda ugly sexp syntax 04:14:00 in the bot i mean 04:14:07 is that not what you're talking about 04:14:15 oklopol: well yes 04:14:21 oklopol: but this way you get to reuse almost the existing parser 04:14:26 so it's SO MUCH MORE CONVENIENT? 04:14:43 well right, so do it :P 04:14:45 i want the bot! 04:15:17 heeeey i could implement quicksort! 04:15:25 i wonder when i implemented that last 04:15:46 oklopol: is that even possible in clue 04:15:56 erm, why wouldn't it be? 04:16:02 it's a pretty high-level language 04:16:16 (;;;;;;;;;;D) 04:18:20 hmm, why can functions only return one value 04:18:21 ... 04:18:26 that's fucking stupid 04:18:29 oklopol: workin on the bot 04:18:30 and lol 04:18:31 just return a list 04:18:47 yeah i sort of came up with that 04:18:57 it's just fucking stupid 04:20:12 -!- azaq231 has quit (Changing host). 04:20:12 -!- azaq231 has joined. 04:20:24 oklopol: take a look at my amazing ast representation 04:20:28 [is zero?('#0')] <>(0) =>{0,0}:['inc', '#0'] ; {0,1}:['inc', ['inc', '#1']] ; ;; <= '#2' ;; !.(1) => '#1' ;; 04:20:37 irc optimised 04:20:48 hahahaha wow that is the worst ever :D 04:20:54 :P 04:21:02 * elliott makes less ghetto 04:23:28 [is negative?('#0')] .(1) => ['negate negative', '#0', '#0'] | .(0) => ['negate positive', '#0', '#0'] 04:23:31 oklopol: it's getting better! 04:24:01 nicenice 04:24:53 oklopol: what _is_ the "main ast" anyway, for a recursion 04:25:28 i think it's default branch, but... umm.... 04:25:33 wait waht 04:25:50 i guess it's the part that calculates actual result 04:26:05 oklopol: what :) 04:26:07 then there's special asts that calculate subinputs from input 04:26:09 ah 04:26:38 also, i can't get pivot to compile, and i'm not sure it's a coding error...... :D 04:28:11 ---- negate positive 04:28:11 [is zero?('#0')] 04:28:11 |^(0) => '#2' <= {(0,0): ['dec', '#0']; (0,1): ['dec', ['dec', '#1']]; } 04:28:13 |.(1) => '#1' 04:28:16 oklopol: this is actually a nicer syntax in general xD 04:29:00 oh 04:29:15 actually it was a coding error, and it compiles in a microsecond 04:29:16 what do oyu mean 04:29:19 *you 04:29:22 nicer than what 04:29:41 oklopol: than get_ast 04:29:43 which is hideous 04:29:44 this is my replacement 04:29:45 ghetto_ast 04:29:49 oh, well surely 04:30:06 get_ast is horrible 04:30:27 that was just a quick thingie so i could see what was going on, i think 04:30:29 hmm 04:30:48 or maybe i did give it some thought, don't really remember, if i did, it was bad touhght. 04:30:50 *thought 04:31:10 ---- is zero? 04:31:10 [id('#0')] 04:31:10 |.(0) => '#1' 04:31:12 |.(_) => '#0' 04:31:14 this is actually starting to make sense :D 04:31:26 oklopol: do Clues know what their constants are? 04:31:27 heh 04:31:27 i'd like to show them 04:31:45 hmm 04:31:54 look in the bag? 04:31:59 :D 04:35:04 oklopol: 04:35:05 ---- subtract 04:35:05 [_(#0)] 04:35:06 |.(_) => add(#0, negate(#1)) 04:35:10 ---- negate 04:35:10 [is negative?(#0)] 04:35:12 |.(1) => {negate negative}(#0, #0) 04:35:14 |.(0) => {negate positive}(#0, #0) 04:35:20 oklopol: i think i win 04:35:27 <- like 04:35:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]). 04:35:58 ---- negate positive 04:35:58 [is zero?(#0)] 04:35:58 |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): dec(#0); (0,1): dec(dec(#1))} 04:35:59 |.(1) => #1 04:36:03 i can even understand that if i try hard enough :D 04:36:22 oklopol: so um constants are _not_in the bag 04:36:24 *_not_ in 04:36:42 aha 04:36:43 helper_objs 04:36:59 oh lol 04:37:28 somehow i think i should optimize this thing, i've been compiling pivot for a couple minutes now 04:38:03 it's incredibly hard to rip a list open, since from the program's standpoint that's not in anyway more sensible than adding stuff to it. 04:38:27 i'm going to make it more sensible, but because i need to do it in a pure an extensible way, that's easier said than done 04:38:58 oklopol: could i actually rewrite these constanty things to their val... nah 04:39:00 too lazy 04:40:32 [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): dec(#0); (0,1): dec(dec(#1))} |.(1) => #1 04:40:36 [id(#0)] <= [0, 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0 04:40:39 think that's about as nice as these are gonna get 04:42:51 oklopol: so um 04:42:54 oklopol: wanna write a parser for this 04:43:03 .D 04:43:34 yeeeeeeeeeah totally 04:43:49 oklopol: expr := '#' nat | int | (string_without_spaces | '{' string '}') '(' args ')' 04:43:55 where args is comma-separated expr 04:43:58 Where is the lid? 04:43:59 oklopol: c'mon, it'll be fuuun :D 04:44:01 Oh where is the lid? 04:44:09 Where is the, where is the, where is the liiiid? 04:44:49 oklopol: ok i'll write the parser, but you have to tell me how lovely i am for four days after that 04:45:50 will do man 04:46:05 Sgeo: liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 04:48:08 i need a better computer 04:48:28 no but seriously i need to optimize this thing, it's kinda ridiculously slow atm :D 04:48:41 (or my code is wrong) 04:48:50 oklopol: i just realised that your language is so awesome that you don't even need {} 04:48:53 to group spacey names 04:49:19 indeed you don't 04:49:25 [is negative?(#0)] |.(1) => negate negative(#0, #0) |.(0) => negate positive(#0, #0) 04:49:28 flexibility yo 04:51:09 return ('a',n,a),s 04:51:09 anas :D 04:53:46 >>> park('is zero?(#0) this is a comment')[0] 04:53:46 ('a', 'is zero?', [('v', 0)]) 04:53:54 oklopol: note my cunning disregard for trailing text providing useful comment functionality 04:54:09 hm wait don't actually need #n here 04:54:21 YES 04:54:31 i managed to compile a tiny helper function for pivot 04:54:45 oklopol: should i require commas between arguments 04:54:48 it's so last year? 04:54:55 it's kinda last year yeah 04:55:11 i should probably remove some commas from clue 04:55:36 i mean from data 04:55:50 i will in ghetto_ast 04:57:20 [id(compare(#0 compare(#0 #0)))] <= [0 1] |.(-1) => #1 |.(0) => #0 |.(1) => #0 04:57:22 pure beauty 04:58:16 why does it consistently add that extra computation, i will never understand 04:58:37 elliott, you didn't punch me. Why didn't you punch me? 04:59:04 arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh 04:59:22 i need to reimplement this fucker in a faster language, with a less brute force algo 04:59:54 oklopol: ok quick does clue support adding things to a funcs dict 04:59:54 like 04:59:56 incremental compilation 05:00:27 can you get cons to caaar 0, [[1], [2], [3]] -> [[1], [2], [0, 3]] to compile? 05:00:53 oklopol: what :D 05:00:55 the funcs dict is a python dictionary.... 05:00:59 yesyes 05:01:00 i mean 05:01:02 i have some func 05:01:03 s 05:01:05 i have some new clue code 05:01:09 can i add its compilation to func 05:01:10 cons to caaar ~ {. 0, [[1], [2], [3]] -> [[1], [2], [0, 3]] } 05:01:15 assuming it uses the stuff always in funcs 05:01:22 if you can compile that, you're my hero 05:01:28 oklopol: well my impl is the same as yours, or do you want me to fiddle with hints 05:01:35 if so, i will, just as soon as i get cluebot working, which will be soon 05:01:45 you have an impl for that? 05:02:09 but yeah i do want you to fiddle with hints 05:02:32 i always meant for it to be really hard to get things to compile, but i just plain can't come up with a way to do that :D 05:02:42 well, maybe some reeeeeeeally roundabout way 05:03:13 i mean you can write sequential code if you like ofc 05:03:20 oklopol: oh fucking god, compile_all is a bitch 05:03:21 that's just kinda tedious 05:03:33 i'm sure it is, why? :D 05:03:33 oklopol: isn't there something to like...fuck 05:03:36 oklopol: okay question um 05:03:52 oklopol: compile_all... can you use it on a predone funcs? 05:03:53 I think so 05:04:25 i think you can separate parsing if you like 05:04:32 but i don't know what you're supposed to call then 05:05:45 def run(coeducational): 05:05:45 asts.update(clue.compile_all(coeducational, funcs)[1]) 05:05:48 thought koed was too cliche 05:06:41 okay, now it compiles in 4 seconds 05:06:58 cons to caaar that is.... 05:07:33 i used to use koed because it's nice to write 05:07:40 koedkoedkoedkoedkoedkoedkoedkoedkoed 05:08:15 >>> cabinetoflaughter('is negative?(-1)') 05:08:15 's' 05:08:18 evaluation function: not so good 05:08:47 :P 05:08:58 Do you know the Unolympics? 05:10:34 * Sgeo wonders what Inventables stuff are good to just have fun with 05:11:07 cluebot starting 05:11:42 zzo38: nope 05:11:44 oklopol: cluebot nick is taken :D 05:11:45 oklopol: let's try us 05:11:47 *uh 05:11:55 oklopol: larc 05:12:06 oklopol: cluebot -> cluebat -> luser attitude readjustment clue 05:12:26 that's...... perfect., 05:12:54 oklopol: That's OK, I don't know either. 05:13:21 zzo38: what do you know then? 05:13:46 oklopol: larc is registered :D 05:13:57 oklopol: luatre then 05:14:02 LUser ATtitude REadjustment clue 05:16:02 oklopol: so I'm thinking, for luatre commands, 05:16:04 oklopol: It is just idea... make Unolympics with difference from Olympics, with events such as: * Circular reasoning * Judge bribing * Flagpole sitting * Beer drinking contest * Watch TV all channels at once by changing the channels really fast * You are allowed to use any drugs you want in order to win 05:16:12 oklopol: three dots evaluates, four dots defines 05:16:14 oklopol: five dots looks up 05:17:32 six dots is just for testing 05:17:40 seven dots means you win immediately 05:17:52 elliott: um it's lart not larc 05:17:56 t for tool 05:17:58 oerjan: luser attitude readjustment clue 05:18:01 oerjan: you silly 05:18:06 cluebot -> cluebat -> luser attitude readjustment clue 05:18:11 ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH FUCKING CLUE IMPLEMENTATION 05:18:16 but lart is already the same as a cluebat 05:18:18 who the fuck as written this piece of shit 05:18:30 oerjan: no shit 05:18:31 i'm gonna kill that little homo 05:18:33 oerjan: it's a pun 05:18:36 oerjan: heard of them? 05:19:01 NO SUCH THING 05:19:12 -!- luatre has joined. 05:19:16 :. butts 05:19:25 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:30 -!- luatre has joined. 05:19:31 :. butts 05:19:35 ... buts 05:19:38 :(( 05:19:46 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:50 -!- luatre has joined. 05:19:52 :. sdfsdfsdf 05:19:54 what 05:19:57 oh 05:20:16 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:20:20 -!- luatre has joined. 05:20:22 :. asdf 05:20:25 what 05:20:41 oh 05:20:56 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:21:00 -!- luatre has joined. 05:21:01 :. asdf 05:21:04 ffwef[kgsfdhiok 05:21:10 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:21:14 -!- luatre has joined. 05:21:16 :. a sdf 05:21:18 what\ 05:21:21 :. asdf 05:21:37 zzo38: luatre will not respond 05:22:06 O, I didn't know that. 05:22:10 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:22:16 -!- luatre has joined. 05:22:16 :. abc 05:22:17 lookup! 05:22:21 what 05:22:27 ... abc 05:22:27 lookup! 05:22:31 .... abc 05:22:35 ...:D 05:22:41 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:22:44 -!- luatre has joined. 05:22:46 Lookup what? 05:22:49 yeah umm okay the pivot function may not be implementable :D 05:22:51 :. x 05:22:51 lookup! 05:22:56 i mean, in any sensible way at least 05:23:16 fucking hell :D 05:23:25 :D 05:23:28 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:23:32 -!- luatre has joined. 05:23:33 :. tarski 05:23:34 eval! 05:23:34 tarski 05:23:38 :: foo 05:23:38 define! 05:23:38 foo 05:23:40 ::. lookup 05:23:40 lookup! 05:23:40 lookup 05:23:42 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:23:49 it doesn't really have to do all that much... 05:23:55 what, the bot? 05:24:05 no i mean pivot 05:24:07 right 05:25:18 -!- luatre has joined. 05:25:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: ). 05:25:33 :. cons(1 []) 05:25:34 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:25:47 -!- luatre has joined. 05:25:49 :. cons(1 []) 05:25:50 maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp :( 05:26:01 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:26:05 -!- luatre has joined. 05:26:06 :. cons(1 []) 05:26:07 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:26:19 -!- luatre has joined. 05:26:20 :. add(1 2) 05:26:50 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:26:57 -!- luatre has joined. 05:26:58 :. add(1 2) 05:26:59 : cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects :( 05:27:56 hmm. 05:27:57 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:28:35 wtf http://i.imgur.com/vymTu.jpg 05:28:42 (r/pics) 05:29:28 :DDDD 05:29:38 that is the best 05:29:40 at 5:30 05:31:04 -!- luatre has joined. 05:31:05 :. add(1 2) 05:31:05 3 05:31:09 :. cons(1 []) 05:31:10 exceptions.RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp :( 05:31:16 :( 05:32:22 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:32:27 -!- luatre has joined. 05:32:28 as far as pieces of shit go, this program is one; i don't mind the lack of error messages really, but fucking hell i can't anything compiled :D 05:32:28 :. cons(1 []) 05:32:28 [1] 05:32:33 :. cons(1 [2 3]) 05:32:33 exceptions.RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :( 05:32:51 i think i compiled stuff more complicated than pivot at some point 05:32:54 dunno what happened 05:32:55 :. [1 2 3] 05:32:56 exceptions.RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :( 05:32:58 hmm 05:33:11 :.sdjfkdjfkjsdf 05:33:15 :SD:Sd.fDD:DDDD 05:33:58 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:34:02 -!- luatre has joined. 05:34:05 :. cons (1 [2 3]) 05:34:06 [1 2 3] 05:34:26 neato 05:34:31 :: is zero? ~ {.0->1} is zero? ~{.1->0 .2->0} is zero? ~ ; #0; #1 05:34:32 is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0 05:34:41 :. is zero? (-1) 05:34:41 i'm going to compile pivot overnight and see if something happens 05:34:42 0 05:34:43 :. is zero? (0) 05:34:44 1 05:34:45 :. is zero? (1) 05:34:46 0 05:34:51 ::. is zero? 05:34:51 is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0 05:34:53 ::. cons 05:34:54 exceptions.KeyError: 'cons' :( 05:34:56 :D 05:34:58 ::. is zero? 05:34:58 is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0 05:35:02 oklopol: admire please? 05:35:22 nice 05:35:36 * elliott fiddles 05:35:39 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:35:44 -!- luatre has joined. 05:35:47 oklopol: did i mention that my expression syntax is awesome 05:35:55 oklopol: it's literally just 05:35:58 [id(#0)] <= [0 1] <<< this is like what args it gets or? 05:36:01 or constants 05:36:03 oklopol: constants, yeah 05:36:09 oklopol: feed it something recursive 05:36:28 expr := int | '[' expr* ']' | name '(' expr* ')' <----- the entire expression syntax 05:36:30 that's rather verbose, but k 05:36:33 with whitespace being irrelevant except to separate 05:36:41 huh 05:36:44 oklopol: what is, recursive stuff? 05:36:48 or the way to show constants 05:36:57 recursivity is verbose 05:37:00 in clue 05:37:01 in general 05:37:01 yeah well :P 05:37:07 but yeah let's see 05:37:40 erm so i don't really see how that syntax works if i'm supposed to use that for def as well 05:37:49 oklopol: :: foo 05:37:51 oklopol: just remove all newlines 05:37:51 or do i just write normal code 05:37:53 yes 05:38:00 ... 2 05:38:01 2 05:38:05 oklopol: threedots = expression 05:38:07 oklopol: fourdots = clue 05:38:13 rrright 05:38:14 oklopol: fivedots = look up the ast of this function i give 05:38:22 oklopol: guess how many lines cluebot.py is, note that my replacement for get_ast is in there (not in clue.py), also the parser and evaluator for my expression language, and all the irc code :| 05:38:27 * elliott coding skillz 05:41:20 .:. parity helper ~ { . 0, 0 -> 0 . 0, 1 -> 1 } parity helper ~ { :. 5, 1 -> 0 : 4, 0 -> 0 :. 3, 0 -> 1 : 2, 1 -> 1 } parity helper ~ ; compare; #0; #1; sub 05:41:20 Exception: Can't compile parity helper(sub) :( 05:41:24 that'll never compile 05:42:03 oklopol: no sub 05:42:07 oklopol: i can add it if you want me to cheat 05:42:11 do 05:42:38 :: sub ~ {.1,3->-2 .2,1->1 .-3,-2 -> -1} sub ~ <_>; add; negate 05:42:39 Exception: Can't compile sub(negate) :( 05:42:43 oh 05:42:49 this will be fun 05:43:25 :: is negative?~{.-1->1 .-2->1} is negative?~{.0->0} is negative?~{.1 -> 0 .2 ->0} is negative? ~ ; compare; #0; #1 05:43:26 is negative?: [id(compare(#0 compare(#0 #0)))] <= [0 1] |.(-1) => #1 |.(0) => #0 |.(1) => #0 05:43:47 can't you just add it as a primitive :D 05:43:56 : negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ ; inc 05:43:59 shit 05:44:01 :: negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ ; inc 05:44:01 Exception: Can't compile negate negative(is zero?) :( 05:44:20 :: is zero? ~ {.0->1} is zero?~{.1 ->0 .2->0} is zero?~; #0; #1 05:44:21 is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0 05:44:23 :: negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ ; inc 05:44:24 negate negative: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} |.(1) => #1 05:44:36 :D 05:44:38 this is beautiful 05:44:52 :: negate positive ~ {:. 5, 5 -> -5 : 4, 3 -> -5 :. 4, 3 -> -5 : 3, 1 -> -5 :. 3, 1 -> -5 : 2, -1 -> -5 } negate positive ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate positive ~ ; dec 05:44:52 negate positive: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): dec(#0); (0,1): dec(dec(#1))} |.(1) => #1 05:45:04 i like how the ast dumps are nicer than the actual code 05:45:12 no they aren't 05:45:19 :: negate ~ {. -1 -> 1 . -2 -> 2 . -3 -> 3 }negate ~ {. 0 -> 0 . 1 -> -1 . 2 -> -2 }negate ~ ; negate positive; negate negative 05:45:20 negate: [is negative?(#0)] |.(1) => negate negative(#0 #0) |.(0) => negate positive(#0 #0) 05:45:26 :: sub ~ {.1,3->-2 .2,1->1 .-3,-2 -> -1} sub ~ <_>; add; negate 05:45:27 sub: [_(#0)] |.(_) => add(#0 negate(#1)) 05:45:28 oklopol: enjoy sub 05:45:31 they are not nearly as nice 05:45:36 thx 05:45:43 .:. parity helper ~ { . 0, 0 -> 0 . 0, 1 -> 1 } parity helper ~ { :. 5, 1 -> 0 : 4, 0 -> 0 :. 3, 0 -> 1 : 2, 1 -> 1 } parity helper ~ ; compare; #0; #1; sub 05:45:44 parity helper: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #3 |^(_) => #4 <= {(0,0): sub(#2 #1); (0,1): compare(#1 #3)} 05:45:49 erm what 05:45:53 happened 05:46:10 huh. 05:46:30 oklopol: look right? :P 05:46:52 :. parity helper (5, 3) 05:46:53 ValueError: substring not found :( 05:47:03 what 05:47:05 i'm... too tired 05:47:08 :. parity helper(5,3) 05:47:08 ValueError: substring not found :( 05:47:09 oh 05:47:11 oh 05:47:12 oklopol: commas duh 05:47:14 :. parity helper (5 3) 05:47:14 we don't do commas ere 05:47:14 0 05:47:14 here 05:47:19 :. parity helper (5 4) 05:47:20 0 05:47:22 :. parity helper (3 4) 05:47:23 0 05:47:24 :. parity helper (5 1) 05:47:24 0 05:47:25 :. parity helper (0 0) 05:47:26 0 05:47:28 :. parity helper (5 0) 05:47:29 1 05:47:29 :. parity helper (-2 1) 05:47:29 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :( 05:47:33 ...:D 05:47:36 :. parity helper (3 0) 05:47:36 1 05:47:39 :. parity helper (3 1) 05:47:39 0 05:47:42 okay it works 05:47:43 what's parity helper(-2 1) meant to be 05:47:48 an error 05:48:28 oh good 05:48:49 :: parity ~ {. 3 -> 1 . 2 -> 0 . 1 -> 1 } parity ~ <_>; #0; parity helper 05:48:50 parity: [_(#0)] <= [0] |.(_) => parity helper(#1 #0) 05:48:57 ... parity ( 5 ) 05:48:58 ValueError: substring not found :( 05:49:02 ... parity (5) 05:49:02 1 05:49:05 heh 05:49:05 ... parity (8) 05:49:06 0 05:49:08 that's a bug for sure :) 05:49:20 dunno about that, but i love clue again 05:49:30 maybe i could just hack up some crappy special casing for lists 05:49:43 because those are impossible to brute force together 05:50:09 whereas in numerical algos, i always completely underestimate the speed 05:50:34 like, when that parity helper compiled, i assumed it was an error message because it was so fast, never seen anything happen that fast with lists 05:50:46 :D 05:53:12 oklopol: i should sleep now 05:53:18 you can have cluebot.py tomorrow or something 05:53:36 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:53:45 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:54:07 clue cluecleucluceluceluceluceluceluclueclueclue 05:54:21 tomorrow's retro language: toi 05:54:40 :> 05:55:27 have you been here before oklopol? 05:55:50 * Sgeo blinks at hagb4rd 05:56:28 yess.. im the noob i know 05:56:48 -!- TLUL has joined. 05:57:01 i have, yes :P 05:57:25 been ircing kinda lazily lately 05:57:32 ah.. 05:57:38 since i have irl stuff i should be doing 05:57:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:58:36 ...or maybe graphica :D 05:59:07 i just realized graphica has kind of a similar syntax as clue 05:59:38 or maybe ef, although i have no idea how that thing works....... 06:00:04 a good point to start 06:01:06 isnt it? :) 06:01:58 well it's a verrry old language 06:07:44 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:13:19 i really like this chan..must admit i haven't found anything comparable on the whole wide irc net 06:14:40 Oh, didn't mean to accidentally offend you 06:14:47 It's just that oklopol has been here for a long time 06:14:57 * Sgeo continues to fail to eat 06:14:58 u didn't :> 06:15:27 Glad to.. see that 06:15:34 * Sgeo emotion-ills 06:17:13 * oerjan hits Sgeo with the saucepan ===\__/ 06:17:22 HOPE THAT HELPS 06:19:04 hagb4rd: when did you come? 06:19:23 that was a very rare moment of sanity you saw there, i arranged it just for you 06:19:36 we were talking about porn when you entered 06:19:50 yes.. thanks for that :) 06:19:58 * copumpkin goes home 06:20:01 its up to a month or sth 06:20:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:20:07 not longer 06:20:19 and i still dont understand anything 06:20:38 but, thats kind of good news 06:21:06 have you seen any of my definition listings 06:21:07 looking for teachers and friends ya know 06:21:18 nope 06:21:21 i sometimes just define random math concepts 06:22:13 Phantom_Hoover: If you logread, I think I accidentally left Station V3 [and sister comics on occasion] off the list 06:22:38 where do i have to look? 06:23:44 the logs? 06:25:08 oh i dunno about that 06:25:11 was just wondering 06:25:19 mainly to know whether i've been doing that lately 06:29:40 thats far behind my person insight so far..but it wouldnt surprise me at all 06:31:54 damn, my corroded-schoolenglish must be insulting, so please excuse.. im tryin to fix this 06:33:04 *trying >:) 06:38:12 and oerjan is send by the goodlord himself.. the good soul ..a real philanthrope :D 06:39:07 please just shut up and don't refuse ;) 06:39:54 O KAY 06:40:00 :> 06:44:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:50:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:53:01 I'm tired 06:53:08 I'm about to start falling asleep on people 06:54:28 that may not be advisable 06:56:59 have you considered taking a vacation sgeo? 07:01:45 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:02:53 drink sangria in the park 07:03:05 or feed some animals in the zoo 07:10:37 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:41:27 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:50:21 -!- zeotrope has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:35:18 -!- zzo38 has joined. 08:37:54 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:39:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:46:04 -!- j-invariant has joined. 09:16:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:16:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 09:20:15 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:32:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:32:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 09:32:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:39:33 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:39:38 Hi :-) 09:39:56 Does anyone know when BF Joust and FYB were added to EgoBot? 09:47:22 huh 09:49:50 For BF Joust, i think it was approximately the same time as it was added to the wiki 09:50:17 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BF_Joust&diff=14558&oldid=14535 09:52:20 for fukyorbrane, i have a vague idea that it was in the previous version of EgoBot as well. the wiki article is from before i joined here. 09:55:32 of course Gregor is the appropriate person to ask 09:57:43 FYB was in EgoBot as long as both existed, more or less, but that was in the pregobot. 09:58:05 It's been in this EgoBot for considerably less time, the hg log is sure to elucidate: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 09:58:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:59:35 20 months for FYB, 19 months for BFJoust. 10:11:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 10:12:44 pregobot? 10:23:53 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:25:02 -!- cheater00 has joined. 10:33:12 Phantom_Hoover, somehow I read that as "pogobot" first. (as in pogo-stick) 10:33:29 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 10:51:05 Thanks :-) 11:24:24 Gregor: 19 months is for the new version of BFJoust. Can you remember when it supported the original? 11:24:58 This was the only version it ever supported. 11:25:04 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:25:08 ... 11:25:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 11:26:11 Firefox always crashes when I click a link in ChatZilla :-( 11:27:02 impomatic, strange. 11:28:07 Gregor: 19 months is for the new version of BFJoust. Can you remember when it supported the original? 11:28:07 This was the only version it ever supported. 11:28:26 Gregor: sorry, I was thinking of the hill that used to be at http://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/bf/ :-) 11:28:39 Snot mine! 11:28:47 Besides, my BFJoust hill is more fair :P 11:38:58 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:41:48 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:42:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:55:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:00:17 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:02:12 -!- MigoMipo_A has joined. 12:17:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:17:40 * Phantom_Hoover boggles at the stupidity of Windows anti-virus software. 12:18:37 It's not unknown for Norton to identify itself as a virus, and both McAfee and AVG have deleted essential Windows files which they thought were viruses. 12:26:15 Sorry, *McAfee, AVG and Norton 12:42:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:49:58 -!- cheater00 has joined. 12:50:56 Phantom_Hoover: got any screenshots of Mt. Hoover? 12:51:08 j-invariant, I might... 12:55:29 http://imgur.com/d1Df9 12:56:03 That's from a while ago; I've put a better lighting system in since and removed that small amount of dirt to the back of the room. 12:56:34 Phantom_Hoover, did you read logs? 12:56:39 [Nothing important] 12:56:42 huh thato's cool 12:57:07 I love how this game is like lemmings: Stuff does not just fall down 12:57:19 Sand and gravel does! 12:57:24 (The better lighting system in question is a layer of glass with lava on top. 12:57:26 *) 12:57:31 Sgeo, I haven't read the logs, but I will now. 12:57:36 And water and lava... are water and lava 12:57:39 j-invariant, sand and gravel falls though 12:58:20 Which is more worthless? Gravel or gold? 12:58:57 Sgeo, probably gravel, unless you are draining. At least gold can be used for watches and you can also built nice looking thrones out of gold blocks 12:59:20 Vorpal, gravel is the only source of flint, which is very useful. 12:59:24 huh, seems like it snows, rains and hails at the same time. 12:59:34 Gold can be used for nothing but watches and decoration. 12:59:35 Phantom_Hoover, hm true 13:11:17 And golden apples! 13:11:27 Sgeo, ahahahahahahahaha 13:12:01 Golden apples are good for bragging rights; that's it. 13:13:52 That sounds almost like a quote from the wiki 13:17:12 Case in point: Vorpal getting his hands on one. 13:18:07 Phantom_Hoover, found it as a golden apple in a dungeon 13:18:22 Yes, and you went on about it for half an hour. 13:18:23 never found even a normal apple in any local game or on SMP 13:18:33 Phantom_Hoover, no I mentioned it once. That was all 13:19:01 You've probably secreted it in one of your super-secret underground bunkers in the wilderness. 13:19:45 Phantom_Hoover, nah, it is pretty useless really. Who would want it? 13:20:51 If golden apples didn't require as much gold to make, would they be worth it? 13:22:15 Sgeo, I never found a normal apple yet and iirc they don't stack anyway 13:26:04 Sgeo, no, because you can just go out and punch some pigs if you need gold. 13:26:28 Are pigs a renewable resource? 13:26:54 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwo8qxUit00 13:27:05 Phantom_Hoover: what do you do all night>? 13:27:35 -!- impomatic has left (?). 13:27:40 Sgeo, no, because you can just go out and punch some pigs if you need gold. <-- ?? 13:27:49 Er, *food 13:28:18 j-invariant, unless you're on the move, setting up a mine would be worthwhile. 13:28:36 oh but I have a treehouse 13:29:09 Phantom_Hoover, and they don't stack either. I suggest carrying a work bench and a stack of wheat when exploring. Maybe one or two ready breads in case you need them urgently 13:29:14 saves space 13:31:10 j-invariant, if you aren't in a hurry to smelt and/or craft stuff, then deferring it to the night might relieve some boredom (and also let you get more stuff that needs daylight done during the day) 13:31:34 oh I don't have any thing to smelt but I guess that's my problem 13:31:40 P.S. wyh is coal so hard to find?? 13:31:49 I keep finding it before I learned how to make chests 13:31:51 j-invariant, are you mining for it? 13:31:55 now I can store it I don't have any 13:32:04 I am not sure 13:32:10 I do dig into the cobblestone 13:32:15 j-invariant, why not go back to the coal you found back then? 13:32:30 it's gone 13:32:35 I already took it all 13:32:41 j-invariant, right then you used it I guess? 13:32:50 well I got kileld 13:32:54 ah 13:33:53 j-invariant, well you are likely to find more underground than when wandering the surface. As long as you have some torches (if you don't and can't find any surface coal you might be in a bit of a deadlock) it should be reasonably safe to mine 13:34:08 get some iron too, and make armour 13:34:10 yes it's a deadlock 13:34:56 j-invariant, well try mining in the open. As in, dig down so you have sky visible at all times, rather than digging tunnels. 13:35:24 clever 13:35:31 j-invariant, a lot more work though 13:35:42 but you will probably find coal soon enough 13:36:02 Also, if you have monsters on securing the thing will be a pain. 13:36:21 j-invariant, do this at close to sea level btw, not at a mountain top. Reason for this is that you won't find iron above a certain altitude 13:37:10 Phantom_Hoover, you mean for the open thing. Well as soon as you find enough coal to make a handful of torches you can switch to a different mining system 13:37:36 Phantom_Hoover, however, it seems a decent way to break the deadlock :P 13:38:28 hm to have one chest for every block id define you would need 173 chests (twice if you want double chests of course) 13:38:38 however, not all are possible to get 13:39:22 (such as fire, redstone ore, redstone-placed-on-ground, or similar) 13:40:08 <3 Fry & Laurie 13:40:16 And elliott will kill me for liking something good 14:00:12 what the hell 14:00:58 j-invariant, ? 14:05:04 I loaded up the game in the spawnpoint instead of my treehouse :( 14:05:21 don't know why that happened 14:05:48 j-invariant, did you die? 14:05:52 I don't think so 14:10:24 How do you avoid getting bored when hauled up in a 2x2x2 house at night? 14:11:04 Wait, if I'm on Peaceful, I don't need to bother with that, do I? 14:13:20 Sgeo: my question exactly :P 14:18:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:20:23 Sgeo, you mine. 14:21:29 I wonder how many bug reports he gets a day... 14:21:44 Phantom_Hoover, while trying to keep the house small so mobs don't spawn? 14:21:56 Sgeo, do you have no coal? 14:21:56 [Note: I have hard times finding coal in a rush] 14:22:01 Oh, right. 14:22:47 Pass, then: I've never stuck at it in a world where I didn't get coal quickly. 14:37:37 -!- TLUL has joined. 14:40:35 hah, the fastest way to load all of minecraft world data into memory for map generation when it isn't cached into ram seems to be to prefetch it using find whatever/ -type f | xargs -P 4 -n 100 head -c1 > /dev/null. The files are small enough that this seems to load the entire files. And the parallel processes make it faster somehow (about 3.5 times as fast) . Could be NQC maybe, since I doubt a single 14:40:35 head process would try to read one file while waiting for the previous one. 14:43:07 err NCQ* 14:57:47 I love teh way you make symbols in minecraft 14:58:12 Sgeo: are you a newbie at minecraft too? 14:58:31 or haveu you had it for a while 15:01:25 Symbols? 15:01:32 Oh, you mean the crafting interface. 15:01:54 yies 15:18:56 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 15:25:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:37:49 -!- TLUL has joined. 15:49:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:53:23 -!- augur has joined. 15:56:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:59:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:00:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit). 16:03:31 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:05:14 -!- augur has joined. 16:13:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:18:45 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:20:33 -!- elliott has joined. 16:20:41 21:55:27 have you been here before oklopol? 16:20:44 hagb4rd: no, he's very new 16:21:15 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:22:15 hah 16:22:33 a whole bunch of creepers blew up in my face and killed me 16:22:36 hi elliott 16:22:48 but I went back to the spot to get my pick and they had revealed some coal 16:23:34 03:28:47 Besides, my BFJoust hill is more fair :P 16:23:38 Gregor: They're MYYY rules! 16:23:41 j-invariant: :D 16:23:48 j-invariant: they destroy like 70% of blocks though 16:24:03 j-invariant: p.s. you know you can fight from behind a door? 16:24:16 if you place a door from the outside of your house, not the inside, then you can walk right up to it and hit things from there 16:24:23 with a creeper you just keep whacking it with a sword until it goes away 16:24:49 hah cool 16:26:14 j-invariant: btw as far as finding coal goes 16:26:23 j-invariant: you probably *really* want a mine of some kind 16:26:34 I have a "mine" 16:26:40 a proper mine, I mean :) 16:26:47 yeah I don't know what that is I guess 16:26:52 j-invariant: the simplest kind is: just dig a shaft (doesn't matter how wide), diagonally, to bedrock (watch out for lava lakes near the bottom; you could stop there if you're lazy) 16:27:01 j-invariant: then, you build 1-wide shafts off to the sides 16:27:07 j-invariant: and then 1-wide shafts on both sides of *that* 16:27:11 separated by, iirc, three blocks 16:27:24 or no wait 16:27:27 separated by one block I think 16:27:32 j-invariant: and basically you just dig along _those_ shafts, and whenever you find ore, you dig out that area 16:27:34 watch out for caverns though 16:27:41 j-invariant: you get much more ore like 10 above bedrock 16:27:46 j-invariant: this method of mining is a bit tedious though 16:27:53 j-invariant: another way to do it is just spelunking 16:28:00 j-invariant: find caves, light them all up, get all their ore 16:28:16 j-invariant: in fact, you can even use a staircase mine to find caverns... they often appear underneath the shafts, and you fall down :> 16:30:08 j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Mining_Techniques 16:30:11 separated by one block I think <-- err, 2 blocks seem saner 16:30:17 OK, twob 16:30:20 *two blocks. 16:30:21 Right. 16:30:31 more if you do a zip like layout 16:30:45 where you alternate two alts, this stacks well 16:31:06 Vorpal: no, that's overcomplicated 16:31:18 j-invariant: the staircase mine method I mentioned, if done correctly, can have you see every block in the entire area 16:31:39 elliott, not if you want to cover a specific altitude. sorry bbl 16:31:50 sure, you do see everything 16:34:26 -!- aloril has joined. 16:38:15 elliott, well yes but if you want to cover a narrow altitude range but one that is larger than 2 blocks high you have to dig away more blocks with your 2 wide separation scheme 16:38:40 irrelevant, you still see it all 16:38:40 elliott, also, do you shift the layers relative each other, or how do you take care of the non-visible corners? 16:38:52 yes, each layer gets shifted right by one (IIRC) 16:39:39 elliott, hm you need a separation of one for that to work 16:39:40 i have this feeling that normal mining isn't too practical in general though 16:39:43 it takes ages to get ore 16:41:26 elliott, actually the high density scheme works fairly well. Also it turns out that if you have a large area at your disposal, a less dense mining scheme which might miss some ores will yield more per dug away block. Due to that ores often comes in clumps. 16:41:57 my staircase mining method is just as high density, but easier to keep track of :) 16:42:21 anyway 16:42:24 I think spelunking is easiest 16:42:29 caverns have shitloads of ore 16:43:19 elliott, anyway this is why shifting by one won't work with separation of two: http://sprunge.us/TIUA 16:43:53 right, so separate by two like i said 16:44:01 elliott, err by one you mean 16:44:07 erm. yes. 16:44:30 elliott, the problem is finding good caverns. Some games you find lots in that go deep. Sometimes you hardly find any that goes deep enough to need torching 16:45:35 and sometimes your mountain has little ore 16:45:37 sucks 2b u 16:49:07 elliott, quite 16:49:25 elliott, I have some single player games with awesome cavern systems though :) 16:50:08 elliott, btw, my basic mining scheme is this: http://sprunge.us/gMZH While it is indeed more complicated and requires some care to get it right, it is faster due to mining far fewer blocks per blocks seen. 16:50:24 of course, spelunking is probably the nicest way, at least on peaceful 16:50:44 (not so good if the cavern is overrun with monsters) 16:52:56 elliott, there was a quite interesting thread on the minecraft forums analysing this. I don't seem to be able to find it again though 16:54:07 Vorpal: Someone needs to figure out the big-O of these mining schemes! 16:54:13 So that the forum can say "lol 0x=0 u stupid" 16:54:18 Vorpal, I think that mining scheme is implementable in a staircase mine. 16:54:21 elliott, XD 16:54:39 Phantom_Hoover, yes, I don't see any problem combining them 16:54:42 Staircase mines with a drop shaft to the bottom are p. much the best! 16:55:01 Although seeing *every* block isn't really necessary. 16:55:22 I think I might start playing MC in a new way: on peaceful until I get an iron sword and armour, and then on hard. 16:55:27 Everything comes in clumps, so you can leave a line unchecked and not miss anything. 16:55:43 Phantom_Hoover is right 16:55:47 Phantom_Hoover, anyway, I wouldn't use it except for the diamond ore altitude range. Because other ores tend to have large deposits so in practise you don't need to see every block to find a deposit. And the few 1x1 coal deposits out there aren't really worth the extra diggign 16:55:49 digging* 16:56:00 hmm, so it's a ratio blocks seen/blocks mined that you want to maximize? (and the limit of that as you mine to infinity, of course) 16:56:12 gah, don't say what I intend to say while I'm writing it. ;P 16:56:21 minecraft is so addictive some people actually DO mine to infinity 16:56:44 j-invariant, can't in this case since it is a side view. And that has a limited range 16:57:20 at some point you'll want to factor in whatever random algorithm is used to place valuables in the ground 16:57:43 I have this huge tunnel to a good place from the spawnpoint// 16:57:47 Sgeo: stop making DCSS fanboi comments that i have to reply to 16:57:49 olsner, yes quite. we did that :P 16:57:49 but the stream in it goes the wrong way 16:58:00 olsner, when we noted the thing about those clumps 16:58:51 i live on as little ore as possible due to laziness but let's pretend it's just my style 16:59:01 if i need it i'll go get it! 16:59:06 elliott, wait, is Sgeo speaking? 16:59:29 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/eydlc/as_a_gamer_without_a_steady_internet_connection/c1bwz27 16:59:36 elliott: hmm, doesn't that actually *make* it your style to use as little ore as possible? 16:59:51 Phantom_Hoover: Worse — he's replying to threads about NetHack on reddit with random factoids about how Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is so great. 17:00:00 Which is just irritating, because (1) that's irrelevant and (2) it's a terrible game. 17:00:01 elliott, yeah personally I do it like mplayer buffers (or at least how you claimed it appears to be buffering) 17:00:05 olsner: INDEED 17:00:23 elliott, I thought yu were talking about the decryptomatic thing. 17:00:26 *you 17:00:30 Phantom_Hoover: that's DeCSS :P 17:00:32 mining is pretty much the most boring thing ever, so yeah i don't really do that 17:00:38 spelunking can be fun once in a while 17:02:28 it's slightly sad that this channel is now all about minecraft 17:02:43 olsner, yeah 17:02:47 oklopol's random walk method is great, I just found the Stairs accidentally 17:02:50 olsner: >:) 17:02:55 unless you're using minecraft for computation, because then it's suddenly on topic 17:03:03 olsner: we did interesting stuff yesterday! esolang i mean 17:03:03 olsner, there is that red stone CPU in it 17:03:18 and yes, we d id interesting mc computation stuff yesterday 17:03:18 *did 17:03:24 me and Phantom_Hoover invented THE BEST CIRCUIT SYSTEM EVER 17:03:32 because redstone is shit 17:03:36 cool 17:03:41 elliott, how is redstone shit as such? 17:03:49 It also allows you to make nuclear reactors. 17:03:51 oh, not *the* shit, but shit? 17:03:55 olsner: yes 17:03:57 redstone is crappy 17:04:01 we redesigned it ... and half the game, but 17:04:04 Vorpal: it can hardly interact with the environment 17:04:08 Vorpal: it has infinite power which is just no fun 17:04:15 and every circuit is gigantic 17:04:18 elliott, well true. There are mods for interacting with environment though. 17:04:27 and yes circuits are large 17:04:27 our way is the best :> 17:04:59 I am sad that civilisation gets little love now ... anyway 17:05:09 olsner: we'd talk about interesting stuff if someone said anything, but nobody does :) 17:05:13 elliott, one think I would like is a lever that affects a wire to blocks below. So you can place a lever on ground and hide the wires 17:05:45 Vorpal: hmm 17:05:48 elliott: I know, sans the minecraft spam it'd just be completely quiet in here, and that could be more boring 17:05:52 Vorpal: easy, since you can cover bluestone'd blocks with other blocks 17:05:58 so just have a wire going underground and cover it with blocks :) 17:06:16 olsner: it's not like we used to be more on topic before, it was just more varied offtopic 17:06:24 elliott, sure you can use a 3 thick wall currently but that is not always a viable option. Such when I wanted a fire level on top of the wall of that fort. 17:06:30 lever* 17:06:47 elliott: yah, probably 17:06:56 so speaking of on topic 17:07:13 elliott, s/f on/ff/ 17:07:47 nope 17:07:48 watch 17:08:03 * Vorpal waits for on topicness 17:08:08 stupid slow bot 17:08:16 -!- luatre has joined. 17:08:20 THAT'S ON TOPIC 17:08:26 :. cons(1 2) 17:08:27 TypeError: can only concatenate list (not "int") to list :( 17:08:28 :. cons(1 []) 17:08:29 [1] 17:08:32 :. add(3 -4) 17:08:33 -1 17:08:43 elliott, which language? 17:08:44 .: is list?([1 2 3]) 17:08:44 1 17:08:49 ... is list?(2) 17:08:49 0 17:08:50 Vorpal: Clue 17:08:54 Vorpal: well, Clue plus my expression language 17:09:05 Vorpal: the actual interesting parts are done with :: (or any combination of : and . resulting in 4 dots) 17:09:18 five dots looks up the compiled form of a given function 17:09:24 elliott, an esolang? It looks rather too sane for that 17:09:33 that's just the expression language... 17:09:36 elliott, ah 17:09:39 this is oklopol's language :) 17:09:48 okay likely extremely weird then 17:09:50 make singleton ~ {. 1 -> [1] 17:09:50 . [1, 2, 3] -> [[1, 2, 3]]} 17:09:50 make singleton ~ ; cons; #[] 17:09:53 ^ that's a function in clue 17:09:56 turns x into [x 17:09:57 ] 17:10:02 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:10:13 basically, clue is programmed by giving a bunch of examples, and then telling it what functions it needs to use 17:10:14 elliott, [x] meaning? 17:10:16 and it solves all the rest by itself 17:10:18 Vorpal: um a list containing just x 17:10:19 obviously 17:10:24 i.e. f x = [x] 17:10:27 elliott, oh so why the name singleton then 17:10:30 it seemed strange 17:10:33 Vorpal: because the list is a singleton 17:10:47 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 17:10:52 another example function 17:10:55 more than 3 ~ {. 0 -> 0 } 17:10:55 more than 3 ~ {. 1 -> 0 } 17:10:55 more than 3 ~ {. 2 -> 0 } 17:10:57 more than 3 ~ {. 3 -> 0 } 17:10:59 more than 3 ~ {. 4 -> 1 17:11:01 . 5 -> 1 } 17:11:03 more than 3 ~ ; #0; #1 17:11:17 elliott, so.. how does it do this? Nearest example? 17:11:23 Vorpal: eh? 17:11:24 why are 4 and 5 in the same bracket? 17:11:28 "nearest example"? 17:11:35 elliott, I mean, how does it extrapolate from the examples 17:11:45 Vorpal: something almost, but not entirely, like brute force 17:11:50 it compiles the ski impl in 20 seconds 17:11:59 tehre's special syntax for doing recursion 17:12:00 *there's 17:12:03 j-invariant: basically, means "branch using id" 17:12:09 elliott, okay. But that doesn't answer my question on how. 17:12:15 j-invariant: so, the first branches are the branches for 0, 1, 2, 3, because it infers the branch as id(param) 17:12:16 which is just param 17:12:19 j-invariant: the last branch is default 17:12:24 and so contains everything above 3 17:12:29 elliott, how do you define something like sin() in it? 17:12:36 Vorpal: you don't, it just has integers and lists 17:12:48 elliott, well lets say integer fixed point sin then :) 17:13:04 Vorpal: very, very slowly 17:13:24 i'll show you the compiles form of make singleton 17:13:41 *compiled 17:13:45 :: make singleton ~ {. 1 -> [1] . [1, 2, 3] -> [[1, 2, 3]]} make singleton ~ ; cons; #[] 17:13:46 make singleton: [id(#0)] <= [[]] |.(_) => cons(#1 #0) 17:14:02 ok, so that <= [foo] means that it gets [] as the first parameter, because we told it it was a constant it needed 17:14:07 What's luatre? 17:14:13 so in the function body, #0 is [] 17:14:20 but in the condition, #0 is the parameter 17:14:24 -!- cheater00 has joined. 17:14:27 elliott, hm. Well what I'm trying to figure out is how it extrapolates. One obvious approach would be to use the examples to train an ANN for example. Another would be to compute a hyper-plane that separates the examples properly (this couldn't handle sin, or xor for example) 17:14:31 elliott: I hope you're saving up all these discusfsions, where you show people how Clue works: And saving them into "clue.clue" 17:14:31 so basically, we switch on the argument, but only have a default (this is the same as having no branch) 17:14:38 then it just conses the param with the constant param ([]) 17:14:41 j-invariant: :D 17:14:44 j-invariant: clog is doing that for me! 17:14:55 Vorpal: ANN? no, no, this is precise 17:15:04 Vorpal: the SKI implementation is a _real_ SKI implementation 17:15:08 that can handle any SKI form 17:15:40 elliott, so hm, what does it do when there could be several different alternatives that would fit the given examples? 17:15:55 Vorpal: then your program is bad... but that's why you use hints 17:16:11 elliott, will it error out or? 17:16:20 i managed to implement subtraction and abs, fwiw, when all there was was add, and no negate 17:16:26 thanks to help from oklopol 17:16:55 Vorpal: no, if it manages to generate a function using the functions in the bag you specified, using the conditional function you specified, meeting your recursion scheme (if you have one), and fitting all the examples in their corresponding branches 17:17:05 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:17:06 Vorpal: then it'll use that function, but ... if you write it properly there's only one function it can really generate 17:17:13 elliott, that more than 3, does it handle -1? 17:17:15 that's the importance of the bag 17:17:19 Vorpal: let's find out 17:17:27 i think it'll say that -1 is more than three 17:17:32 heh 17:17:42 because anything that isn't 0, 1, 2, or 3 gets true, basically 17:17:44 but you could easily fix it 17:17:54 by having another case ... or even just a wrapper function 17:17:56 that checks for negativity 17:18:01 elliott, presumably you could make it extrapolate in both directions? 17:18:13 it doesn't "extrapolate"... 17:18:17 it is not guessing, it is very precise 17:18:19 elliott, well, okay, bad word 17:18:34 -!- augur has joined. 17:18:46 Vorpal: basically, no, because you'd still need to switch on whether it's negative 17:18:48 but that's easy 17:18:49 anyway 17:18:51 :: more than 3 ~ {. 0 -> 0 } more than 3 ~ {. 1 -> 0 } more than 3 ~ {. 2 -> 0 } more than 3 ~ {. 3 -> 0 } more than 3 ~ {. 4 -> 1 . 5 -> 1 } more than 3 ~ ; #0; #1 17:18:51 more than 3: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #0 |.(1) => #0 |.(2) => #0 |.(3) => #0 |.(_) => #1 17:19:04 right, i can see straight away that that will think -1 is more than three 17:19:20 (if you can't, maybe you're not good enough at understanding my compiled syntax form) 17:20:47 hm 17:20:47 Vorpal: here's an implementation of negate, subtract, and abs http://sprunge.us/gOPE 17:20:54 the :. : bit is the recursion schemes 17:21:20 :: is negative? ~ {. -1 -> 1 . -2 -> 1 } is negative? ~ {. 0 -> 0 } is negative? ~ {. 1 -> 0 . 2 -> 0 } is negative? ~ ; compare; #0; #1 17:21:20 is negative?: [id(compare(#0 compare(#0 #0)))] <= [0 1] |.(-1) => #1 |.(0) => #0 |.(1) => #0 17:21:24 hm 17:21:31 that compare(#0 #0) is quite amusing, it's 0 obviously 17:21:40 but the brancher can't access the constants 17:21:43 since it doesn't get them yet 17:21:47 elliott, it doesn't use the examples in a very clever way it seems 17:21:47 so it couldn't just use teh constant 0 it's given 17:21:48 *the 17:21:50 it figured out what 0 is :) 17:22:02 Vorpal: what do you mean? 17:22:08 you generally don't need many of them at all 17:22:19 there's more in my negating functions because i made a mistake earlier 17:22:42 Vorpal: take a look at this 17:23:04 :: negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ ; inc 17:23:04 Exception: Can't compile negate negative(is zero?) :( 17:23:08 oh :D 17:23:19 :: is zero? ~ {. 0 -> 1 } is zero? ~ {. 1 -> 0 . 2 -> 0 } is zero? ~ ; #0; #1 17:23:19 is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0 17:23:25 :: negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ ; inc 17:23:25 negate negative: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} |.(1) => #1 17:23:30 elliott, well hard to explain what i mean 17:23:33 Vorpal: see negate negative in that sprunge up there 17:23:37 17:22 luatre: negate negative: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} |.(1) => #1 17:23:39 it figures that out 17:23:43 based on the recursion scheme and base case 17:23:48 which is pretty good, if you ask me 17:23:55 to translate that inferred function to haskell: 17:24:09 hm 17:24:22 negneg x y | not (isZero x) = negneg (x+1) (y+1+1) 17:24:26 | otherwise = y 17:25:14 Vorpal: anyway it is the best and most expressive language ever :D 17:25:17 just...kinda hard to use 17:25:17 * Phantom_Hoover is puzzled by a clearly visible Sony TV in Red Dwarf. 17:25:22 elliott, well sure. But it takes rather a lot of code to do it 17:25:33 elliott, and yes, sure it is nice. 17:25:39 not really 17:25:40 Not because of the anachronism, but because I thought that violated the BBC's anti-product-placement rules. 17:25:43 i'll write negate negative shorter 17:25:59 Vorpal: i added the extra test cases because i was paranoid when it broke once 17:26:17 hm 17:26:19 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:26:54 :: negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {:. -5,-5 -> 5 : -4,-3 -> 5 :. -4,-3 -> 5 : -3,-1 -> 5 } negative negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {. 0,1 -> 1} negative negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ ; inc 17:26:54 TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable :( 17:27:02 :: negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {:. -5,-5 -> 5 : -4,-3 -> 5 :. -4,-3 -> 5 : -3,-1 -> 5 } negative negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {. 0,1 -> 1} negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ ; inc 17:27:03 TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable :( 17:27:06 i fail at spelling 17:27:12 :: negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {:. -5,-5 -> 5 : -4,-3 -> 5 :. -4,-3 -> 5 : -3,-1 -> 5 } negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {. 0,1 -> 1} negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ ; inc 17:27:13 negate negative 2 electric boogaloo: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} |.(1) => #1 17:27:22 Vorpal: in long form, that code is just: 17:27:24 negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 17:27:24 : -4, -3 -> 5 17:27:24 :. -4, -3 -> 5 17:27:26 : -3, -1 -> 5 } 17:27:28 negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 } 17:27:30 negate negative ~ ; inc 17:27:53 hm okay 17:27:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:28:05 negate negative ~ ; inc <-- inc? 17:28:12 inc is just x->x+1 17:28:17 yes quite 17:28:22 but what's more, i can prove it 17:28:24 elliott, but why does it need to increment? 17:28:36 Vorpal: um because the algorithm works by doing f (x+1) (y+2) 17:28:39 see the compiled form 17:28:52 :: succ ~ {. 0 -> 1 . 1 -> 2 . 2 -> 3} succ ~ <_>; inc 17:28:54 succ: [_(#0)] |.(_) => inc(#0) 17:28:58 PROOF 17:29:06 oh right. 17:29:12 _ is just _(x) = 0 17:29:16 :. _([1 2 3]) 17:29:16 0 17:29:27 and if you gave negate negative ~ ; it would fin dhe other program? 17:29:38 j-invariant: what do you mean? 17:29:38 sqrt(x^2) instead of if x<0 then -x else x 17:29:53 j-invariant: well you would do <_>; sqrt square 17:29:54 although sqrt may be difficult to implement 17:29:56 j-invariant: but yes, it would probably get that 17:30:04 oh you mean sqrt being separate 17:30:07 j-invariant: well you would do <_>; sqrt; square 17:30:11 it would probably get it, yes 17:30:12 quite easily 17:30:14 but doing sqrt would be a bitch 17:30:29 Vorpal: here's the ski impl: http://sprunge.us/gdNj 17:30:34 can you do sqrt? :D 17:30:37 *impl: http://sprunge.us/gdNj 17:30:49 Vorpal: would be much more readable if s, k and i could be something other than constant integers, but 17:30:50 elliott, heh 17:31:01 j-invariant: not really :) ... you could probably do newton's method? 17:31:29 Vorpal: it's actually a wonderful program 17:31:31 ski apply especially 17:31:33 is very pretty 17:31:38 also note that :s after the first in a :. are ignored 17:31:40 they're documentation 17:31:49 well... or i think they are tested 17:31:49 elliott, just write a soft floating point library in it. In theory it is possible since it is TC. But likely infeasible. 17:31:53 but they aren't used for generating the recursion scheme 17:32:00 elliott, how long did ski take to compile? 17:32:06 Vorpal: i'll measure 17:32:18 Vorpal: note that the implementation has many, many really stupid things 17:32:28 such as? 17:32:32 def is_function(a): 17:32:32 try: 17:32:32 a() 17:32:33 except Exception,e: 17:32:36 if str(e)[-12:]=="not callable": 17:32:38 return False 17:32:39 return True 17:32:42 things like that :) 17:32:47 python, eww 17:32:48 and it also calls functions during compilation like 138917491238912379x more than itn eeds to 17:32:49 *it needs 17:32:53 it's not python 17:32:58 it's oklopython 17:33:02 Did oklopol write it? 17:33:05 yes 17:33:14 elliott, how does that differ from normal python? 17:33:20 # glue is just a helper for glue_ 17:33:20 # we add recipes to objects 17:33:20 def glue(functions,applier,applicabler,objects,condition): 17:33:22 objectswithrecipes=[] 17:33:23 I expected BETTER 17:33:24 for i in xrange(len(objects)): 17:33:26 l=(lambda j:lambda app,*args:args[j])(i) 17:33:27 Vorpal, it's crazier. 17:33:28 objectswithrecipes.append((objects[i],l,"#"+str(i))) 17:33:29 return glue_(functions,applier,applicabler,objectswithrecipes,condition,5,objects) 17:33:31 that's how 17:33:41 Phantom_Hoover, but it uses the same interpreter as normal python? 17:33:54 this is actaully not the most oklo python i've ever seen, that would be the oklotalk-- impl 17:34:08 this is how I mine http://sprunge.us/SbMK 17:34:17 def funthatreturnsntharg(i): 17:34:17 return lambda*args:args[i] 17:34:21 that's my favourite name for a function tbh 17:34:25 # glue is just a helper for glue_ <-- that sounds like a weird naming scheme 17:34:45 oh, he meant wrapper? 17:34:48 i'll compile ski now 17:35:09 always seem to find coal if you just do it for long enough 17:35:20 Vorpal: 17.8115589619 seconds 17:35:23 to compile everything in that paste i showed 17:35:29 elliott, on what sort of hardware? 17:35:33 nice thing about Clue is you don't have to test the program! 17:35:47 Vorpal: um 2.1ghz core 2, 4 gigs of ram... i don't think it's ram intensive 17:35:48 just very slow 17:35:49 j-invariant: naturally 17:35:52 elliott, right. 17:35:53 "Tested by construction" as opposed to "Correct by construction" that we do in Epigram 17:35:57 LOL 17:36:40 it's a whole program paradigm based around testing: I can hardly beleive it's not subsumed java/C# etc by now 17:36:43 Vorpal: recompiling ski now so i can show the asts in my form 17:36:44 (ghetto ast) 17:36:53 elliott, knowing python you would probably get a 3x speed improvement if you switched to another language. 17:37:00 which is actually less ghetto than oklopol's: 17:37:01 ---- depth of first 17:37:02 Condition: is list?('#0') 17:37:02 Base branch (0) 17:37:04 '#0' 17:37:05 Rec branch (1) 17:37:08 Subast(0,0):['car', '#1'] 17:37:10 Main ast: ['inc', '#2'] 17:37:12 Vorpal: you would get a 3x speed improvement just removing all the stupid shit from the impl 17:37:21 elliott, hah 17:37:47 Vorpal: 17:37:50 ---- ski apply 17:37:50 [ski type?(#0)] 17:37:50 |.(0) => #0 17:37:51 |^(1) => #1 <= {(0,0): car(cdr(#0))} 17:37:52 elliott, try it with pypy? 17:37:53 |^(2) => #1 <= {(0,0): cadar(#0)} 17:37:55 |^(3) => #3 <= {(0,0): pair(cadaar(#0) car(cdr(#0))); (1,0): pair(cadar(#0) car(cdr(#0))); (2,0): pair(#1 #2)} 17:37:57 |^(4) => #2 <= {(0,0): car(#0); (1,0): pair(#1 car(cdr(#0)))} 17:37:59 maybe. :p 17:38:02 some simple memoisation would help. 17:38:09 also impressive: 17:38:10 ---- ski type? 17:38:10 [id(cons(deep first(#0) make singleton(depth of first(#0))))] <= [0 1] 17:38:11 |.([1, 0]) => #0 17:38:13 |.([2, 0]) => #0 17:38:15 |.([3, 0]) => #0 17:38:17 |.([2, 1]) => #0 17:38:19 |.([3, 2]) => #0 17:38:21 |.([3, 1]) => #0 17:38:22 uh 17:38:23 |.(_) => deep first with cutoff(#2) 17:38:27 it's pretty good at figuring out conditions :) 17:38:32 hm 17:38:39 the id(x) thing is just because this version of the lang is stupid 17:38:44 the stuff is... basically totally unnecessary 17:39:02 elliott, it should be able to automatically strip id() off anything 17:39:11 Vorpal: no, it should just not need 17:39:16 the reason it has id there is because oko did 17:39:19 ; ... 17:39:23 -!- aloril has joined. 17:39:25 because the normal conditional form can only handle one argument and shit 17:39:27 because it's stupid 17:39:35 heh 17:40:21 ---- depth of first 17:40:21 [is list?(#0)] <= [0] 17:40:21 |.(0) => #0 17:40:24 |^(1) => inc(#2) <= {(0,0): car(#1)} 17:40:24 ---- deep first 17:40:26 [is list?(#0)] 17:40:29 |.(0) => #0 17:40:30 |^(1) => #1 <= {(0,0): car(#0)} 17:40:32 ---- deep first with cutoff 17:40:34 [id(more than 3(depth of first(#0)))] <= [4] 17:40:36 |.(0) => deep first(#1) 17:40:38 |.(1) => #0 17:40:40 ^ that's quite an interesting block of functions. 17:40:49 remember that in the body, rather than the brancher/conditional, the args are all N forward 17:40:52 where N is the number of constants 17:40:57 because the first N are the constants shown :) 17:42:13 hm 17:42:41 i should probably explain the ast format 17:42:42 shouldn't i 17:43:05 sure why not, got a bit busy RL now though 17:43:40 i'll wait then, gotta have someone hearing my blabbering 17:57:31 hm 17:57:38 how the thell do I take a screenshot of minecraft/ 17:59:27 j-invariant: F1+F2 17:59:30 F1 to turn on camera, F2 to screenshot 17:59:34 goes in ~/.minecraft/screenshots 18:02:26 morning 18:03:13 hi oklopol 18:03:19 do you want cluebot.py 18:05:58 " Which is more worthless? Gravel or gold?" <<< gravel, you can make armor out of gold. 18:06:15 oklopol: gold armour lasts like 0 seconds 18:06:16 it is useless 18:11:45 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:20:04 It's *slightly* better than leather IIRC. 18:22:14 " also note that :s after the first in a :. are ignored" <<< that's not true! 18:22:30 oklopol: i clarified 18:22:36 oklopol: they're tested but don't go towards making the recursion scheme 18:22:37 right? 18:22:46 they are when recursion branches multiple times, like you'd expect 18:23:14 well...whatever :D 18:23:26 negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 18:23:26 : -4, -3 -> 5 18:23:26 :. -4, -3 -> 5 18:23:28 : -3, -1 -> 5 18:23:30 :. -3, -1 -> 5 18:23:32 : -2, 1 -> 5 } 18:23:34 oklopol: so is there a better way to write that 18:23:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 18:26:40 can you write prime factorization? 18:26:55 j-invariant: um :D 18:26:58 oklopol: do prime factorisation 18:27:10 j-invariant: you can do pretty much any recursive algorithm ... as long as each step can also be done ... prolly 18:27:34 " oklopol: gold armour lasts like 0 seconds" <<< not really 18:27:42 twice as good as leather 18:27:47 they always double 18:27:49 oklopol: don't you have...iron 18:27:55 and chainmail is between gold and iron 18:27:55 iron is 100000x superior to gold 18:27:58 and lasts like 100000x longer 18:27:59 oklopol: what 18:28:06 oklopol: chainmail is impossible to get without inventory editing 18:28:12 and also stops all damage 18:28:35 " well...whatever :D" <<< it's just the way you explained it sounded like things like quicksort would indeed not be possible 18:28:44 okay 18:28:57 i thought you thought you can't recurse multiple times, but just tail 18:29:08 hmm except not tail because many examples are non-tail 18:29:24 oklopol: so is there a better way to write that <<< one or two examples is enough 18:29:31 oklopol: oh yes indeed 18:29:33 I just meant would : be useful 18:30:02 " can you write prime factorization?" <<< i believe it's possible to compile a simple imperative language to this, and prove some sort of bound on compilation speed 18:30:10 erm, referenced bad line maybe 18:30:48 " oklopol: don't you have...iron" <<< i have iron, yes. all i'm saying is if sand was much easier to find than gravel, would you say gravel is worthless because it doesn't fall 18:31:04 (because sand is easier to get and falls oh so much nicer) 18:31:17 well sure 18:31:21 if you have gold and gravel, and a bunch of creepers coming, gold is better. 18:31:37 oklopol: certainly, but if i have iron and all the usual necessities, 18:31:41 and your life is more precious than emptying seas 18:31:44 oklopol: then i'd rather have a bunch of gravel than gold ... probably ... maybe not 18:31:48 only cuz of the cube :) 18:32:55 but it's clear that gold has no actual use, usually 18:33:02 except the exeptions 18:33:05 *exc 18:33:36 anyway personally i'm more happy finding gold than gravel 18:33:44 and i'm sure i would be even if gold wasn't valuable irl 18:33:59 gold blocks are pretty, and gold is rare, that's enough. 18:34:58 but yeah i'm sure you all wouldn't even mine gold, just like you don't mine anything else you find 18:35:25 cuz you already have a lifetime stock of almost one whole stack of it 18:35:51 so seriously, i slept all day 18:36:04 i went to sleep at sunrise, and it's now been dark for a while 18:36:14 i have an exam on monday :( 18:36:19 i'll probably fail AS USUAL 18:36:30 http://i.imgur.com/Q0GSe.jpg 18:36:30 btw checked 18:36:45 after looking at the numbers, i notice chainmail is actually weaker than gold 18:36:48 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:36:53 oklopol: you fail exams? :P 18:37:03 also, yeah, chainmail is weak, but ... dude, it stops all your damage 18:37:31 i actually failed an exam once, it was about using windows and unix 18:37:46 you had to get everything right, apparently i fucked something up in the excel part 18:38:01 or was it the unix part, maybe i wasn't able to unzip something 18:38:12 don't remember, i hate computers anyway 18:38:23 -!- azaq23 has joined. 18:38:52 but anyway not being able to solve a problem in the exam is as good as failing, and that i've done a lot 18:39:15 for instance, in a recent exam, there was this problem that i couldn't solve (and later proved impossible) 18:39:19 oklopol: really? 18:39:36 so everyone got a 100% from the prob 18:39:56 really what 18:40:00 i said a whole bunch of things 18:42:21 so, basically what i could do is, instead of doing brute force search (which already discards multiples), i do a kind of variant of a*, so that if an operation *simplifies* another object, it's applied first 18:42:34 where list simplicity is just its size as a tree 18:42:40 oklopol: um are you talking about clue now 18:42:55 this will later be made pure, since this is just a special case of a strategy 18:43:04 but for now, it's let me write things like quicksort 18:43:20 elliott: why not 18:43:30 and i meant that as in 18:43:39 "yeah sure, you may interpret this as clue talk" 18:44:03 but surprisingly, there's also an implicit "yes" 18:44:10 oh shit shoppe -> 18:46:21 oklopol, hm, couldn't means-ends analysis work for clue (if that was it was about) 18:51:59 Vorpal: so can i tell you ast yet 18:52:00 *so can 18:52:03 or are you still real-life-crapping 18:52:11 "crapping"? 18:52:26 like 18:52:27 thingsing 18:52:31 except life is boring so things=crap 18:52:33 so it's crapping! 18:52:50 elliott, sure, tell me. 18:52:57 * Vorpal is now known as /dev/null 18:53:16 Vorpal: psht fine then i won't 18:53:18 elliott, or why not tell someone else, sure clue was interesting, the ast not so much 18:53:31 Vorpal: the ast is just the shit that shows you waht it actually compiles to 18:53:34 which is the only way to understand it 18:53:43 elliott, oh okay 18:53:58 elliott, so it compiles to ast? (what?) 18:54:06 Vorpal: yes, before it compiles to a python function 18:54:07 okay so 18:54:09 [id(#0)] <= [0 1] 18:54:09 |.(0) => #0 18:54:10 |.(1) => #0 18:54:12 |.(2) => #0 18:54:14 |.(3) => #0 18:54:16 |.(_) => #1 18:54:18 basically 18:54:21 every clue function is of the form 18:54:50 yes? 18:55:07 \a1 a2 a3 ... -> (\c1 c2 c3 ... a1 a2 a3 ... -> case B of x -> ...; y -> ...; z -> ...; [and optionally] _ -> ...) cv1 cv2 cv3 ... a1 a2 a3 ... 18:55:13 c1,c2,c3 are the constants 18:55:16 hm 18:55:17 and cv1,2,3 are their values 18:55:23 elliott, this is pseudo-haskell? 18:55:24 B is the branching expression 18:55:26 yes 18:55:29 right 18:55:38 so, here, in this ghetto ast form, [x] in the top line is the branching expression (B) 18:55:51 there are two constants; c1's value is 0, and c2's value is 1 18:55:57 and these get passed as the first two arguments to the function itself 18:56:03 whereas the branching expression just sees the actual arguments 18:56:05 the problem with inference atm, is that you have things that build bigger things in your bag, now say you want to find a certain thing inside a list, should be easy because even though you need a depth 3 expression for that, there's only a finite amount of sublists, so just look at them all; unfortunately, by simply using cons, at level 3, you'll be looking at millions and millions of lists 18:56:11 elliott, you don't indent the ast to make it easier to follow? 18:56:17 so, this switches on id(first arg), i.e. the first arg 18:56:27 0 to [first arg], same with 1 2 3; anything else to [second arg] 18:56:32 in this case, the first arg is 0, and the second 1 18:56:34 those are the two constants 18:56:41 you can see this because after the branching expression it has "<= [0 1]" 18:56:43 which is the list of constants 18:56:47 hm 18:56:48 Vorpal: doesn't need it? 18:56:49 so really i could probably make it faster by *adding every sublist* in the set of objects currently usable in expressions 18:56:53 functions all follow this form 18:57:30 Vorpal: oh and function arguments are just written adjacent 18:57:31 no commas 18:57:32 Vorpal: so, now, considering some recursion 18:57:40 [is zero?(#0)] 18:57:40 |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} 18:57:40 |.(1) => #1 18:57:44 booleans are just done as integers here 18:57:49 ^ means it's a recursive branch 18:57:53 there are no constants here 18:58:02 but we can see, if the parameter is zero, we just return the second parameter 18:58:06 because #n is the nth parameter 18:58:12 if it's not, we get recursion 18:58:22 so, there's 1 recursion here 18:58:28 so the first element of the recursion pairs is always 0 18:58:30 meaning first recursion 18:58:39 elliott, this isn't the AST. This is a human representation of the AST. Or if it is the AST, why the hell are you working on it in a textual form in the program ;) 18:58:40 (consider fib, which would have two, and so would have first-elements of 1) 18:58:47 Vorpal: yes, it's the representation of the ast 18:58:51 which is important for figuring out what the function does 18:59:06 Vorpal: ok, so that list basically says: the first recursion has first parameter inc(#0) and second parameter inc(inc(#1)) 18:59:12 which is first param + 1, and second param + 2, respectively 18:59:15 elliott, wouldn't looking at the compiled result work? Or is that unreadable? 18:59:33 the result of this recursion is treated as an extra parameter to the function 18:59:43 and in this case, we just return the subrecursion with no processing -- i.e. it's tail recursive 18:59:49 elliott, so if ^ is recursive then . is a base case? 18:59:50 right 18:59:51 Vorpal: this IS the compiled result 19:00:03 Vorpal: the ast is hard to follow because instead of writing it in sexp-like form, you name subtrees, and just say (cons #4 #6) where #4 and #6 are the fourth and sixth expressions defined 19:00:04 Vorpal: the compiled-compiled result is just a python function which processes the ast list when called 19:00:06 elliott: I can't deal with Haskell - Ishould program in Scheme 19:00:16 hm 19:00:20 elliott, ew 19:00:30 j-invariant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php#Implementation proof that scheme is best language 19:00:31 elliott, why not compile it to haskell or something 19:00:35 :) 19:00:43 Vorpal: um because the impl is written in python 19:00:44 it's an interpreter 19:00:58 Vorpal: also because the language isn't lazy/ 19:01:00 * 19:01:01 *? 19:01:04 that's a kinda stupid question. 19:01:07 elliott, but the actual interpretation doesn't look complicated? 19:01:14 of the ast I mean 19:01:17 -!- augur has changed nick to fum. 19:01:20 yes, that's why most of the code is the other parts. 19:01:30 oklopol: i think i'm going to change the ghetto_ast to show recursion normally 19:01:36 as in, as actual applications 19:01:38 elliott, oh I thought it was. Well compiling to scheme then? 19:01:53 Vorpal: that would require a python implementation _and_ a scheme implementation and vastly complicate everything 19:02:14 -!- fum has changed nick to augur. 19:02:17 elliott, we could move away from python. This alone would speed it up 19:02:25 elliott: do you drop the main branch? i can't see it in "is zero?" 19:02:29 Vorpal: yeah cuz scheme is sooooooooooooo fast 19:02:41 elliott, well there is one compiler 19:02:42 oklopol: the main branch being what in particular? 19:02:46 elliott, forgot the name of it 19:02:50 tbh that was the first nontrivial one i actually gave some thought to, apart from "mm correct general feel" 19:02:58 Vorpal: restricted subset of r4rs. also, oklo python is beautiful 19:03:11 oklopol: what was the fisrt nontrivial one you actually gave some thought to 19:03:11 erm what 19:03:11 *first 19:03:17 "is zero?" is, i just realized 19:03:19 elliott, what is it that makes it oklo? 19:03:25 oklopol: :D 19:03:25 "is zero?", and not "negate negative" 19:03:28 elliott, the weird thing with exception handling? 19:03:29 Vorpal: oklo 19:03:39 oklopol: the main branch is between => and <= 19:03:40 Vorpal: no 19:03:45 i assumed it was negate negative, because of the incing twice 19:03:48 oklopol: but i'm going to make it so that negate negative looks like this: 19:03:48 no wait what 19:03:51 [is zero?(#0)] 19:03:59 argh 19:04:08 |^(0) => recurse(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1))) 19:04:13 |.(1) => #1 19:04:17 except i'll give recurse a name 19:04:23 oklopol: should the recursion function be @ or $ 19:04:28 in the display 19:04:52 elliott, well I don't know what in the code is oklo. Just saying oklo makes it oklo is a tautology.. 19:04:59 Vorpal: oklopol wrote it 19:05:28 elliott, okay. But does it differ in coding style or something from normal python? 19:05:41 elliott, or is it just defined by author being oklopol? 19:05:41 umm yes 19:05:43 in every way 19:05:47 oklopol: link me to your scheme interp again 19:05:47 on vjn 19:06:16 " oklopol: i think i'm going to change the ghetto_ast to show recursion normally" <<< should be done, yes, just a tiny amt of work so i skipped it 19:06:21 elliott, so just wondering if you can give me some representative example showing what makes it oklo :) 19:06:40 oklopol: limme scheme terp vjn prove Vorpal oklopy langue 19:07:13 elliott: so was that thing actually the is zero function or is it a part of negate negative 19:07:14 elliott, your keyboard seems to have broken 19:07:26 it's negate negative clearly, that's why i'm asking 19:07:53 Vorpal: i usually have a rather unique way of writing in a language 19:08:07 oklopol: it was zero yeah now link me to scheme terp 19:08:10 usually it's in the canonical ugly code direction 19:08:14 ill make Vorpal rue day he evr asked 19:08:21 oklopol, yes I understood that. But I was basically wondering unique in what way. :) 19:08:24 oklopol: technically i'd prefer to show him the oklotalk-- impl but that's somewhere in space 19:08:25 elliott: scheme interp in what language? 19:08:31 Vorpal: your smiling is creepy 19:08:32 oklopol: python 19:09:05 elliott, ooh, like a creeper? 19:09:43 elliott: that can not be the is zero function! 19:09:51 [id(#0)] <= [0 1] 19:09:51 |.(0) => #1 19:09:51 |.(_) => #0 19:09:53 yes it can? 19:09:57 no but the 19:10:03 [is zero?(#0)] 19:10:03 argh 19:10:03 |^(0) => recurse(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1))) 19:10:03 |.(1) => #1 19:10:07 oklopol: oh well yes. 19:10:10 so 19:10:10 that's negate negative. 19:10:11 umm 19:10:17 main branch is not in there 19:10:17 as i sedd 19:10:19 that's negate negative 19:10:21 oklopol: howso 19:10:24 oklopol: the main branch is just #2 19:10:26 so it gets expanded out 19:10:32 erm fuck 19:10:33 oklopol: the point is that i'm going to inline all the recursions 19:10:35 yeah us right 19:10:36 to be, you know 19:10:37 pretty 19:10:40 see what happened was 19:10:44 unless it does like cons(#2 #2) 19:10:46 i didn't understand how tail recursion works 19:10:46 but who would do that 19:10:48 :D 19:10:49 yeah 19:10:50 happens 19:10:52 because it's a very new concept for me! 19:10:54 in life sometimes 19:10:56 absolutely 19:11:16 but right, when you write it in recurse(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1))) form, it's rather clear this function does not need cons 19:11:37 oklopol, just remember the linking of code :) 19:12:01 anyway i want functions to return multiple values, that would fit the scheme so perfectly, especially since you don't actually ever *call* functions 19:13:14 trivia: you can write code that looks like you're returning multiple values now, but they are completely ignored in examples by parser 19:13:37 win 3 19:13:39 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Quit: NO U). 19:14:04 ---- negate negative 19:14:04 [is zero?(#0)] 19:14:04 |^(0) => #2 19:14:06 |.(1) => #1 19:14:07 :DDDD 19:14:10 so elegant 19:14:32 ---- negate negative 19:14:32 [is zero?(#0)] 19:14:32 |^(0) => @(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1))) 19:14:34 |.(1) => #1 19:14:37 oklopol: ^ 19:14:55 actually i should probably drop the ^/. indicator 19:15:02 since it doesn't actually help you understand it now 19:15:04 opnz oklopol? 19:15:32 tusho: can't find it in there 19:15:55 ---- negate negative 19:15:55 [is zero?(#0)] 19:15:55 | 0 => @(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1))) 19:15:57 | 1 => #1 19:15:59 ---- negate positive 19:16:01 [is zero?(#0)] 19:16:03 | 0 => @(dec(#0) dec(dec(#1))) 19:16:05 | 1 => #1 19:16:07 oklopol: ...are you back in time? 19:16:15 HEY i JUST REALISED, i can replace constants like this 19:16:39 elliott: i was reading contents of vj.fi 19:16:41 *vjn.fi 19:16:43 i mean scp 19:16:46 oklopol: is tusho there a lot? 19:16:57 i saw a folder named tusho... 19:17:03 :Ddddd what's in there 19:17:44 ah the redirecting service 19:17:58 where does it go 19:18:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYws8biwOYc someone has redirected "awesome" to this 19:18:16 :D 19:18:37 i... have seen that 19:19:00 so even more 100% sure that it was not just a random internet guy 19:19:17 tusho goes to google.com 19:19:29 xD 19:19:38 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%201.mov 19:19:42 is tusho1 19:19:46 :D 19:19:58 damn 19:20:01 oh god not that 19:20:05 why can't we forget i was ever proved female 19:20:43 indeed 19:21:56 [id(compare(#0 compare(#0 #0)))] 19:21:56 | -1 => 1 19:21:56 | 0 => 0 19:21:58 | 1 => 0 19:22:01 ...can't believe this is actually kinda working :D 19:22:17 oklopol: :( my ast is getting readable enough that i can't explain how amazing it is 19:22:48 elliott, that statement made no sense 19:23:00 unless unreadable == amazing 19:23:02 before i could give a lesson on what each part ment and how it switched and stuff 19:23:04 made a bit tho 19:23:06 but now anyone can make sense of it... 19:23:12 oklopol: made a bit what 19:23:16 sens 19:24:09 i agree that's kind beautiful, as long as you have #x actually mean constants and arguments, and not named expressions 19:24:21 and actually write a tree 19:24:24 erm 19:24:44 wait i guess it's just when the subrecursion inputs are calculated that new things are named? 19:25:02 bleh, i'll just let you figure this out, and complain about the obvious problems if there are any 19:25:34 ohhh 19:25:47 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 19:25:50 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 19:25:55 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 19:25:57 yeah i guess the reason for named things is that that's actually how the computation goes, since it's faster not to compute things multiple times 19:26:05 of course, usually the named expression is only used once 19:26:43 -!- coppro has joined. 19:26:44 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:26:44 -!- Leonidas has joined. 19:29:33 oklopol: 19:29:35 [ski type?(#0)] 19:29:36 | 0 => #0 19:29:36 | 1 => @(car(cdr(#0))) 19:29:37 | 2 => @(cadar(#0)) 19:29:39 | 3 => @(pair(#1 #2)) 19:29:41 | 4 => @(pair(#1 car(cdr(#0)))) 19:29:46 oklopol, is this for the compiled output or for the process of compilation? If it is for the compiled output, couldn't you keep a counter for each named expression and inline it just used once? 19:29:46 this shit actually works :D 19:29:48 elliott: btw i think you can use constants when computing the condition, i think it's more likely that when it tries compare(#0 #0), it actually substitutes that for the code for generating the number 0 (which was the constant zero), because it noticed due to memoization that they have the same results. 19:30:03 because it can't actually measure whether constant 0 or compare(arg1 arg1) is faster 19:30:18 depth of first isn't working i don't think, it's showing wrongly 19:30:27 oklopol: no, you can't use such a constant 19:30:30 oklopol: because it gets the first param as #0 19:30:32 even if you have constants 19:30:38 so clearly it doesn't get constants :) 19:30:40 elliott: what are #0 #1 and #2 in that, it's not clear. 19:30:48 things...i'm trying to work it out 19:31:31 i'll look in the code to see if you're right about constants 19:31:39 i'm rather convinced you are 19:35:16 yeah 19:35:25 glue is not called with that information. 19:35:35 compile_cond 19:35:36 # find the code for determining branch 19:35:36 _,preprocessing,prepcode=glue(clue.bag, 19:35:36 stuff.apply_to_visible, 19:35:36 (lambda f,args:stuff.getarity(f)==len(args)), 19:35:36 nontestbranchinputs, 19:35:36 (lambda a:is_partition(stuff.apply_to_visible(clue.cond,[a])))) 19:35:42 nontestbranchinputes 19:35:44 *ts 19:35:52 should have constants before it 19:36:16 oklopol: you should add that :P 19:36:32 oklopol: should i patch it up to make it a little bit more efficient? 19:36:42 well, at least the great thing about clue is no programs should break 19:37:22 not many languages where you can start giving more unnamed args to functions, and they still work the same way 19:37:27 [ski type?(#0)] 19:37:27 | 0 => #0 19:37:27 | aaa1 => @(car(cdr(#0))) 19:37:29 | aaa2 => @(cadar(#0)) 19:37:31 | aaaaaaaaa3 => @(pair(#1 #2)) 19:37:33 | aaaaaa4 => @(pair(#1 car(cdr(#0)))) 19:37:35 now that's what i call debugging output 19:37:47 :D 19:37:56 hmm wait what 19:38:04 maybe i should fix it, that's so clearly an error 19:38:17 oh man, this is quite impressively broken i think 19:38:32 but i wonder how localized i can make the change, i believe pretty localized, but hmmhmm 19:38:42 oklopol: i can do it if you want, this is fun 19:38:54 well sure 19:39:18 copy paste the code for fixed_h_objs from some other func, unless you know what invisible_lists are 19:39:40 they are just when you want a vector such that all things are actually applied to their contents 19:39:51 oklopol: what xD 19:39:56 so that we can have multiple examples, and functions apply to them separately 19:40:01 i have never once wanted that 19:40:06 nor do i understand, but 19:40:21 well, you need it for this 19:40:47 it's a rather common thing to need 19:41:06 NEED, not even want 19:41:14 just as soon as i fix this abomination 19:41:57 ah!!!!!!!!!! 19:42:41 see this way i can write glue (which is the only thing that does any search) in such a way that it doesn't have to know anything about multiple examples, or even what examples are, it's just looking for a path from A to B, for expressions A and B, and given operations for walking (contents of bag) 19:43:22 oklopol: and yet it's a hideous function 19:43:26 very true to the Clue spirit i feel 19:43:28 :D 19:44:15 well there's tons of optimization 19:44:19 otherwise it's not that many lines 19:44:24 also some debugging stuff i haven't removed 19:45:02 the basic reason is the compiler actually compiles everything into a python function, the asts aren't actually executed 19:45:12 and of course i do this by building hideous lambdas 19:45:23 newobjrecipe=(lambda fun_,subsetrecs_ : 19:45:23 (lambda app,*args : 19:45:24 app(fun_,map(lambda o:o(app,*args),subsetrecs_))))(fun,subsetrecs) 19:46:45 wtffff 19:46:47 at this 19:47:29 I just need a really simple (to specify) program -- but filling the details in (i.e. writing it) is a huge hassle 19:47:38 j-invariant: that's why clue is great! 19:47:55 j-invariant: figures out all the little details for you, so long as you specify them all in an unreadable form underneath the examples 19:48:31 oklopol: can i have some coffee, i need it to understand clue 19:48:32 what makes glue hideous is that when it's building objects, it's actually building the actual python object, an ast explaining how it was made, and a python lambda that makes it from the arguments given to the original glue function 19:48:39 and then i have many lines that do the memoization stuff 19:48:43 ahaha I doubt Clue can do what I want 19:48:55 you should make a human powered web interface for Clue 19:48:56 and i have a big try catch thing that checks whether applications succeed 19:49:05 or maybe a different language all together 19:50:13 and applying, being applicable, what we're looking for, what functions we may use are abstracted away 19:51:11 their exact semantics are not as pretty as they could be ofc, might take 10 minutes to see how to make that thing infer say brainfuck code 19:52:38 but basically you could have objects be contents of brainfuck tape, and asts be code that generates them, prolly just leave recs empty (or generate bytecode of some sort) 19:53:48 then give a bag of operations like -- could be applicable iff object (the tape) has more than one at current cell, and it would add -- to the end of ast, and would decrement current cell twice to get the new object 19:54:03 glue would automatically memoize away multiple ways to get the same tape contents 19:54:30 oklopol: am i correct in thinking that hardcoding the brancher/conditional to would be the best thing? 19:54:40 oklopol: since it works perfectly fine when you do that, and is also a very common thing to do 19:54:43 and just removing <> entirely 19:54:55 does it break ski? 19:55:17 ilkka just put everywhere and told me conditions are done in a stupid way 19:55:24 oklopol: well yes, in that you'd have to strip <> from it 19:55:25 and i said duh 19:55:30 and then also get rid of ; since it'd be redundant 19:55:36 but other than that it should work perfectly 19:55:51 maybe have it as backwards compatibility :D 19:55:52 oklopol: call it "clue 1.5" :P 19:55:53 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 19:55:58 oklopol: lol 19:55:59 oklopol: you joke 19:56:10 oklopol: the backwards compatibility is the fact that there's a file called clue.py.old 19:56:12 :D 19:56:20 indeed 19:56:45 or "that old clue.rar on vjn server if i didn't overwrite it yet" 19:56:52 i have that saved :> 19:57:00 oklopol: clue 1.5 — more powerful conditions, less thinking about the bag, and OPTIMISED! 19:57:04 and also 19:57:07 erm 19:57:07 CONSTANTS IN THE CONDITIONAL 19:57:22 erm? 19:57:39 well if i make 1.5, it'll have a completely different condition system, not just dropping 19:57:53 oklopol: 1.25 19:57:59 heh 19:58:09 i don't think that's really necessary, just have for now 19:58:12 oklopol: I'm going to do it whether you want to bother or not, just tell me what version number to give it :P 19:58:19 ohhh 19:58:22 well i'm optimising it anyway...and putting constants in conditions 19:58:23 then you can use 1.5 19:58:25 *1.25 19:58:30 maybe i'll actually call mine 1.5 19:58:30 so i might as well fix the condition system a little bit while i am at it? 19:58:41 you can! 19:58:57 ...how? 19:59:07 oklopol: make it always assume is given, remove <> from the parser 19:59:11 and then in the ast printer, just ignore condname 19:59:17 and use condast instead 20:00:25 also how were you planning to optimize? my suggestion is you add a "size" function to glue, and it always makes sure all subobjects are in the bag 20:00:37 so that you don't make objects bigger, unless you really have to 20:00:59 this would be rather easy to do, and would probably make ski compile in a millisecond 20:01:27 oklopol: i'll probably do that 20:01:35 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:01:40 -!- luatre has joined. 20:01:44 oklopol: first bit of optimisation was going to be "fix your stupid fucking is applicable" function though :D 20:01:54 ok luatre now has nicer function printing!!! 20:02:05 feed it something recursive 20:02:06 and gawp 20:02:07 in fact 20:02:08 just do it without making glue dependent on the rest of the code, i'm very strict about the conceptual purity of code 20:02:08 i will 20:02:31 what do you mean fix applicable function? 20:02:40 where you call a function to see if it can be called. 20:02:48 how else would you do it? 20:03:10 oklopol: um isinstance(f,types.FunctionType) 20:03:16 what 20:03:20 what 20:03:41 let's see... 20:03:54 i mean 20:04:04 what if the function only works for integers? 20:04:13 oklopol: irrelevant, you call it with no arguments 20:04:16 so you can't find that out anyway 20:04:41 ... length ~ {:. [1,2,3] -> 3 : [2,3] -> 2 :. [[],2,[1,2],3] -> 4 : [2,[1,2],3] -> 3} length ~ {. [] -> 0} length ~ ; cdr; inc 20:04:41 ValueError: substring not found :( 20:04:47 what 20:04:48 oh 20:04:52 .:. length ~ {:. [1,2,3] -> 3 : [2,3] -> 2 :. [[],2,[1,2],3] -> 4 : [2,[1,2],3] -> 3} length ~ {. [] -> 0} length ~ ; cdr; inc 20:04:52 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (length) :( 20:04:54 call it with no arguments? applicabler(fun,subsetobjs) 20:04:56 :D 20:05:00 you do not call it with no arguments 20:05:01 .:. length ~ {:. [1,2,3] -> 3 : [2,3] -> 2 :. [[],2,[1,2],3] -> 4 : [2,[1,2],3] -> 3} length ~ {. [] -> 0} length ~ ; cdr; inc; #0 20:05:02 length: [empty(#0)] | False => inc(@(cdr(#0))) | True => 0 20:05:24 applicabler is one of the most important things in the whole system, currently of little use because you can't make your functions fail explicitly 20:05:26 def is_function(a): 20:05:26 try: 20:05:26 a() 20:05:27 except Exception,e: 20:05:29 if str(e)[-12:]=="not callable": 20:05:31 return False 20:05:33 return True 20:05:35 oklopol: i mean that. 20:05:36 oh you meant that? 20:05:38 ohhhhhh 20:05:45 20:04 elliott: .:. length ~ {:. [1,2,3] -> 3 : [2,3] -> 2 :. [[],2,[1,2],3] -> 4 : [2,[1,2],3] -> 3} length ~ {. [] -> 0} length ~ ; cdr; inc; #0 20:05:45 20:04 luatre: length: [empty(#0)] | False => inc(@(cdr(#0))) | True => 0 20:05:46 dude 20:05:47 oklopol 20:05:47 i thought you wanted to remove applicabler from glue :D 20:05:49 it has booleans 20:05:53 and you didn't even realise :D 20:06:06 well it uses python types directly 20:06:09 right 20:06:09 so sure 20:06:16 oklopol: ok so here's what i'm planning to do for clue 1.25 20:06:16 you just don't have operations for them yet 20:06:20 oklopol: optimisations and stuff 20:06:25 oklopol: remove <> 20:06:29 oklopol: remove commas from lists :D 20:06:37 oklopol: rename empty to empty? and make it return an int 20:06:41 yeah all those i agree with 20:06:45 oklopol: and maybe add those neg/sub you have 20:06:45 or 20:06:46 better 20:06:48 have stdlib.clue 20:06:53 which implements them using my impls :D 20:07:05 although i doubt you'll be able to donate that many optimizations 20:07:09 that are actually relevant 20:07:14 probably not, but who cares 20:07:15 well, except the one i just explained to you 20:07:25 19:59 oklopol: also how were you planning to optimize? my suggestion is you add a "size" function to glue, and it always makes sure all subobjects are in the bag 20:07:26 yeah 20:07:28 i'll do that 20:07:29 if i can :P 20:07:41 it can get slightly hairy, but shouldn't be that hard 20:07:57 hmhmm 20:08:01 or not... dunno 20:09:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:09:23 O() wise, it's enough to check if at least one new object was added that was smaller than the ones it was derived from, and if such an object was added, skip adding the big stuff on this iteration 20:09:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:09:53 unfortunately, if not all things are added, it also means you should start checking that you're not doing redundant stuff 20:10:23 which leads to all kinds of very nice fastenings, but will also make glue also conceptually ugly. 20:10:51 Exception: Can't compile cadar(), deep first with cutoff(), deep first(), make singleton(), cadaar(), depth of first(), more than 3(), pair(), ski type?(), ski apply() 20:10:52 :D 20:10:57 currently, glue is basically just for all subsets of objects found so far, check what functions can be applied, apply them all, remove duplicates, add to known objects. 20:10:58 silly me 20:11:18 "ski type?" ;O 20:11:24 wat 20:11:27 i was just using the old ski 20:11:29 in ski apply 20:11:35 yeah and? 20:11:42 A NONTRIVIAL CONDITION! 20:11:48 should probably change that 20:11:49 also 20:11:53 wait nm 20:11:57 oklopol: nah, you can't tell it's a condition in 1.25! 20:11:57 also 20:11:59 ---- succ 20:12:00 [?(#0)] 20:12:01 | _ => inc(#0) 20:12:05 but the code 20:12:06 succ ~ {. 0 -> 1 20:12:07 . 1 -> 2 20:12:09 . 2 -> 3 } 20:12:11 succ ~ _; inc 20:12:15 oklopol: clue decided it didn't need _ :D 20:12:17 isn't that amazing 20:12:17 well = ; ski type? 20:12:19 it's so smart 20:12:30 very 20:12:47 would be fun to look at the actual python bytecode generated btw 20:13:00 "fun" 20:13:08 and perhaps make a version of glue that writes java bytecode instead 20:13:15 or, abstract that away as well 20:13:22 oklopol: don't you call clue functions as the lambda 20:13:27 yes 20:13:29 so the bytecode will just look like... a function call to the interpreter 20:13:43 ---- negate negative 20:13:43 [#0] 20:13:43 | _ => #2 20:13:44 what? 20:13:44 | 0 => #1 20:13:49 oklopol: ...it decided it didn't need "is zero?" 20:13:50 holy shit 20:13:52 it is so fucking smart 20:14:05 a function call to the interpreter?!? 20:14:08 what the fuck man 20:14:11 IT ACTUALLY COMPILES TO PYTHON 20:14:18 oklopol: to...python strings? 20:14:18 there is not interpretation 20:14:19 does it actually 20:14:21 NO 20:14:27 that's why glue looks ugly 20:14:27 oklopol: it manually writes bytecode? 20:14:42 no, it writes a whole mess of lambdas. 20:14:56 oklopol: ok, but the point is that the lambdas don't get inlined inside each other 20:15:04 so it's still going to look like a single lambda with a big environment full of lambdas 20:15:19 well you'll get very fragmented and jumpy python bytecode, yes 20:15:32 but not a function call the an interpreter, because there isn't one 20:15:39 *to an 20:17:22 i could, i guess, make glue directly write bytecode, if i abstracted away code generation 20:17:26 which wouldn't be very hard 20:18:04 and i could then change tail recursion to an actual loop ofc 20:18:45 which happens outside glue ofc, glue never recurses into code that hasn't been completely inferred yet 20:18:56 so 20:19:13 yeah it doesn't understand recursion, i guess that's what my point was 20:19:40 you'll be pleased to know, i've broken ski somehow 20:19:47 :P 20:19:53 it wasn't very hard to write 20:21:10 maybe i should write a really simple and stupid version of that glue + size_functions 20:21:26 i basically just wanna see if pivot starts magically compiling fast 20:22:32 incidentally why does make singletone exist 20:22:36 you can do pair with just #[] and cons 20:22:53 *singleton 20:23:04 or even just that functions can be neutral, building or demolishing 20:23:20 oklopol: i'll be happy to incorporate those changes into 1.25 :P 20:23:26 elliott: because it was easier to make things compile that way 20:23:41 oklopol: :D 20:23:44 oklopol: see with clue 1.25 it just works 20:24:01 pair ~ {. 1, 2 -> [1, 2] 20:24:01 . [3], [4, 5] -> [[3], [4, 5]]} 20:24:01 pair ~ #[]; cons 20:24:03 well 20:24:05 *cons; #[] 20:24:06 for elegant 20:24:08 *elegance 20:24:12 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:24:13 building and demolishing could easily be actual concepts you can have for your objects as well, it's clear what they are in general for inductive data structures 20:24:16 what are the terms in cs? 20:24:20 the correct terms 20:24:22 dunno :D 20:24:23 like building = cons 20:24:24 oklopol: erm 20:24:27 demolishing = car, cdr 20:24:29 oklopol: ah 20:24:32 oklopol: constructing, destructing 20:24:35 oklopol: introduction and elimination 20:24:35 ah! 20:24:39 or what j-invariant said 20:24:45 i prefer elliott 20:24:46 's 20:24:48 because those i knew 20:24:50 :( 20:24:54 mine have a nice balance :P 20:25:04 by which i mean oo uses constructing 20:25:07 of course 20:25:27 oo doesn't really make inductive data structures very natural 20:26:11 hmm 20:28:06 i should also have some kind of "in-place" changing of things, that is, you don't have to demolish an object, get to one of its subobjects, change it, and build the original back, but instead, you can virtually demolish, and sort of just get an (object, pointer) pair, such that building something out of this new object actually builds something out of the subobject referenced by the pointer, and the actual object is built on top 20:28:11 i mean 20:28:35 as an implementation detail, since elliott claims he might want to do this kinda stuff 20:28:50 well yeah if it's not too hard. 20:28:53 whereas it's clear i'll just do stuff in my head and then go all meeeeeeh code. 20:28:54 j-invariant: Which maze? 20:29:04 zzo38: the crazy mirror maze thing 20:29:26 elliott: that thing i just mentioned might be a tad complicated to do in a nice way 20:29:26 oklopol: introduction and elimination <-- that's more for type systems and logic deductions, isn't it? 20:30:01 the reason i like demolishing is that you actually destroy an inductive data structure *completely* 20:30:04 oklopol: yeah 20:30:05 when inferring 20:30:18 you don't just use it once or twice 20:30:32 i mean you will in the compiled prog, ofc 20:31:03 like if x :: a and y :: b then (x,y) :: (a,b) 20:31:05 j-invariant: Although the display-mode ("P") function doesn't work here, you can still use bombs and bullets. Also there are various fake walls. 20:31:24 elliott: or more like, easy to do in a nice way, but not at all easy to see how to actually have it make things fast, instead of just adding another exponential blow-up 20:31:32 well 20:31:40 or not, but i'm not gonna get into the details maybe 20:31:46 oerjan: it's what dependent losers use :D like me! 20:33:16 maybe i'll add building and demolishing as quick hacks now, as poc 20:33:50 but the functions are actual python functions, so i can't just quickly add that info to them :( 20:33:54 or i can, but that sounds ugly 20:34:00 zzo38: I am raelly stunned by this game btw 20:34:13 zzo38: it is very detailed and tricky 20:34:33 j-invariant: Yes that level with mirrors is not one of the best levels I have created. The other levels are better. 20:34:45 O mean the whole thing 20:35:03 did j-invariant mention the mirror room at some point 20:35:12 just checking 20:35:21 yes 20:35:24 okay 20:35:37 would've been so classis zzo38 to guess a specific room you're referring to 20:35:38 :P 20:35:40 *classic 20:36:41 elliott: makes sense 20:36:44 oklopol: i suggest rewriting it as an ast interpreter so that your structure easily allows compilation :} 20:36:52 (just because an interp is easiest first) 20:37:38 * oerjan suddenly gets the idea of a codependent programming language 20:37:42 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:04 j-invariant: Still, the mirror maze is solvable with some trial/errors (other levels are better). Just some hints, use bullets/bombs in case you forget where you are. Another way is that some things will push you and you can hear the noise of pushing. And, you can pick up potions, too. 20:38:25 nono i just need to have a function that extracts "construction type" information from functions, unspecified for most functions, but specified as building or demolishing for certain stdlib functions, in glue 20:38:39 so basically i'd be done if i could just add a string of information to the stdlib functions 20:39:26 zzo38: I am raelly stunned by this game btw <-- so it has lots of ufos? 20:39:31 (If you have a save game, you can restore the save game and try a different level if you don't like that one?) 20:39:47 oerjan: read you as oklopol was like, what, that's too real for him to mention 20:39:49 (rael lol) 20:41:10 oklopol: so when does the depth limit get exceedemated 20:42:37 return glue_(functions,applier,applicabler,lambda a:None,objectswithrecipes,condition,5,objects) 20:42:41 in glue 20:42:49 return glue_(functions,applier,applicabler,cons_typer,objects+newobjects,condition,depth_lim-1,orig_objs,objectlookup) 20:42:51 in glue_ 20:43:12 so it only does 5 rounds 20:43:16 elliott: that _doesn't_ make sense 20:43:25 later, it will only make 5 *build* rounds 20:43:28 oerjan: what 20:43:31 oklopol: no no no i mean 20:43:35 oklopol: if the depth limit gets exceeded 20:43:37 what has clue failed to do 20:43:38 *no no 20:43:40 at a high level 20:43:46 it has failed to find an implementatoin. 20:43:49 *implementation 20:43:55 for something 20:44:09 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:44:13 elliott: oerjan: read you as oklopol was like, what, that's too real for him to mention 20:44:22 oerjan: read your name as oklopol 20:44:23 i was like 20:44:24 what 20:44:29 that's too real for him to mention 20:44:40 oklopol: okay, so basically it means "im not smurf enough to this function?" 20:44:41 oklopol; was 20:45:13 where smurf is smart and to is to make 20:45:16 yes? 20:45:25 yes 20:45:33 in a very precise sense 20:45:35 oklopol: but that's...bad, yes 20:45:36 elliott: ufos are too real for oklopol to mention, gotcha 20:45:38 that it looks at the size 5 ball. 20:45:41 oerjan: no but raels 20:46:26 yeah i didn't know rael 20:46:40 oklopol: i think that <> is actually needed in some cases :D 20:46:43 e.g. deep first with cutoff 20:46:47 doesn't work without ... 20:46:51 ...wait what? 20:46:52 ? 20:46:59 it should, just slightly slower 20:47:09 it's not actually slower, this 20:47:34 well obviously the functions that previously used something other than id will now be slower 20:47:42 because you're giving it the topmost function 20:47:45 oklopol: nonono, this is confusing 20:47:47 instead of having it do that for you 20:47:55 okay 20:48:36 so how do i add a bit of information to a function 20:48:46 i don't want to make my own function class or anything 20:48:55 that'd take MINUTES 20:49:11 oklopol: hmm 20:49:24 oklopol: func.foo = 3 20:49:25 works fine 20:49:26 :D 20:50:00 xD 20:50:01 right 20:50:46 AND THEN I'LL JUST MAKE A TRY CATCH BLOCK TO CHECK FOR THAT 20:50:59 :D 20:51:04 oklopol: try 20:51:16 ? 20:51:18 oklopol: getattr(func,'propname',default) 20:51:31 right 20:51:35 didn't know the name 20:51:40 aw man, it doesn't print I BARFED UP A YUPPIE 20:51:43 bug isn't there then 20:53:10 oklopol: what the fuck is happening 20:54:15 xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 20:54:19 oklopol: 20:54:20 ---- deep first 20:54:20 [#0] 20:54:21 | 1 => #0 20:54:23 | [[1 2] 3] => #1 20:54:37 MAYBE THAT'S THE BUG 20:55:19 oklopol: tl;dr without <>, you need more examples 20:55:24 to stop the silly thing thinking it can do trivial shit 20:55:52 oklopol: so uh... should i add more examples or restore <> 20:57:16 oklopol: EH 20:57:20 hmm 20:57:56 so erm how did you do the removal of <> exactly 20:57:58 oklopol: i mean obviously the clue purist in me says, obviously, get rid of <> and just add more examples 20:58:00 oklopol: simple 20:58:04 oklopol: i hardcoded the cond function to id 20:58:06 and left all the rest as is 20:58:17 so everything has now basically 20:58:22 and deep first broke what was it using? 20:58:39 is list k 20:58:55 oklopol: yeah... is list? is in the function list though 20:59:03 oklopol: it just needs another example in one or both blocks 20:59:07 oklopol: so that clue realises it needs is list 20:59:09 rather than hardcoding 20:59:25 it's okay that it needs two examples for deep first imo 20:59:45 i mean, the correct thing to do is assume the first ones are hard coded things, and the last one is a default branch 20:59:48 i mean 20:59:59 if you're trying to find the easiest implementation of the given behaviour 21:00:03 ---- deep first 21:00:03 [#0] 21:00:03 | 1 => #0 21:00:05 | _ => #1 21:00:06 er what... 21:00:18 so just add another example for the constant case, and is list? in the bag 21:00:35 is list was already in the bag 21:00:40 but yeah, it's the constant case that needs adding 21:00:52 oklopol: maybe if clue can't use all the functions you provide it should error out 21:01:01 "either you have useless code, or i wasn't smart enough" 21:01:33 or at least a warning 21:01:38 i mean 21:01:44 hmm 21:02:12 yay ski seems to compile now... I think either deep first or my printing function is broken though :) 21:02:15 probably my printing function 21:02:20 deep first ~ {. 1 -> 1 21:02:20 . 2 -> 2 } 21:02:20 deep first ~ {:. [[1, 2], 3] -> 1 21:02:21 : [1, 2] -> 1 21:02:23 :. [1, [2, 3]] -> 1 21:02:25 : 1 -> 1 } 21:02:27 is what seems to have fixed it 21:02:33 i mean for instance if you just go "this can prolly be done with car, cons and cdr but i can't ass thinking about it", and turns out you just need two of those, then i wouldn't call that a bad thing 21:02:35 well 21:02:39 oklopol: yeah, but 21:02:42 it should say 21:02:46 "hey, you might wanna remove these: " 21:02:50 yeah 21:02:53 "or else if you know it's needed, lol, i fucked up, be more examply please" 21:03:03 but i mean, see 21:03:08 oklopol: omg i just invented SuperClue 21:03:15 oklopol: every function defined so far is put into every bag 21:03:20 SO SIMPLE 21:03:42 yeah yeah, remove the reason glue actually works, and it'll be even more beautiful 21:04:21 oklopol: well ... who runs programs 21:04:24 i just write them 21:04:25 but, anyway that might actually be feasible, when a very nice interp is made by a very smart person, and when there's a bit more stuff you can do to help compilation 21:04:54 ---- ski apply 21:04:54 [ski type?(#0)] 21:04:54 | 0 => #0 21:04:56 | 1 => #1 21:04:58 | 2 => #1 21:05:00 | 3 => @(pair(cadar(#0) ski type?(cdr(#0)))) 21:05:03 | 4 => @(car(#0)) 21:05:04 that looks very suspicious 21:05:09 oh wait 21:05:12 just my broken printing function again 21:05:13 i mean, i'm going to add a rather nice syntax for adding new inductive data structures, at some point. 21:05:14 * elliott goes back to get_ast 21:05:21 oklopol: and then remove built in lists and numbers, yes? 21:05:33 oklopol: omg... if it actually did guessing based on the induction scheme of the structure 21:05:36 rather nice as in, clue should never start to look like an esolang... again conceptually 21:05:42 :}}}}}languagegasm 21:05:58 elliott: yeah that's the idea 21:06:23 oklopol: btw 21:06:24 62.0739979744 21:06:29 oklopol: ski compilation is over 2x slower :D 21:06:31 that you have something like "list tool bag", which is the basic operations of lists, and if you have lists as args, it's unioned with the bag by defauly. 21:06:33 *defauly 21:06:35 *default 21:06:47 oklopol: but then again... 21:06:47 not all that surprising 21:06:52 oklopol: optimising over language purity is kinda 21:06:53 BUT IT'LL RUN FASTER NOW! 21:06:53 yuck? 21:06:56 bags i can accept 21:06:58 indeed! :D 21:06:58 but 21:07:03 conditionals are just 21:07:11 oh man, it actually uses my cpu doing this 21:07:18 yes. conditionals are you writing actual code, doing some specific thing. 21:07:20 variable: we've invented your language which takes ages to compile anything 21:07:29 they should not be allowed near clue. 21:07:41 oklopol: well if conditionals could take multiple arguments. then i wouldn't mind nearly as much 21:07:44 because you wouldn't have to do . 21:07:46 but they can't. 21:07:48 so vomit 21:08:11 elliott, hrm? which lang? 21:08:12 i sort of mind them anyway, i mean next thing you know you'll want to say "...and this recursive case should cons two things together" 21:08:16 variable: cue 21:08:30 *clue 21:08:36 oklopol: oh sertanly, i just meant i wouldn't HATE IT WITH ALL MY GUTS if they could take multiple args 21:08:41 right 21:08:42 I'll look in a bit - I can't talk now 21:08:43 same here 21:08:49 oklopol: also, i am going to add constant support for conditionals now ... 21:08:52 * variable is working on a unnecessary compiler in haskell 21:08:53 oklopol: can we stop calling it a conditional? 21:08:56 "brancher" 21:08:58 that would be better 21:09:03 indeed it would. 21:09:33 condcode=lambda*a:clue.cond(preprocessing(apply,*a)) 21:09:35 hmm. 21:09:41 hmm. 21:09:55 preprocessing? 21:10:18 oklopol: i just wanna know where you create the conditional code :D 21:10:21 so i can give it constant access 21:10:26 although the inferrer would have to know about it too 21:11:12 giving it constant access is not that easy, because you also have to call it with constants then 21:11:18 which is done in a different place 21:11:20 but that should be it 21:11:28 and no, glue doesn't need to know about this. 21:11:39 glue has nothing to do with anything around it 21:11:53 well, it will when i add demolishing check, but glue_ will still not 21:12:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:12:36 oklopol: clue is so awesome. 21:12:38 i keep tight track of logical dependancies, usually 21:12:46 dancy dancy 21:14:37 oklopol: you know what, you can add constants in conditionals :D 21:15:07 it's not actually that hard, but you need to wrap stuff in invisible lists a bit and such 21:15:10 i can do it sure 21:16:28 essentially it's just giving glue the constants when you call it for conditional, in invisible lists full of that constant (for each example, that constant in the index of the invisible list reserved for that example), and then wait what? 21:16:31 (lambda a:is_partition(stuff.apply_to_visible(clue.cond,[a])))) 21:16:35 is it safe to turn this into uh 21:16:38 um 21:16:46 say that clue.cond doesn't exist any more 21:16:50 but it's assumed to be id 21:16:53 how can i rewrite that line? 21:16:56 and yeah then you need to find where the lambda is made that actually computes all of that stuff 21:17:55 i believe so, you can just check if the actual objects are a partition already 21:17:57 like 21:18:18 erm 21:18:59 is_partition is... a bit involved is it... 21:19:04 *n't 21:19:11 xD 21:19:20 ohh 21:19:26 it's because of default branches 21:20:06 is_partition actually checks if the list you give it is a partition, assuming one of the partition elements can be "default", so for instance [[1, 1, 1], [3, 3], [6, 5], [4, 4]] would be a partition 21:20:13 because only [6, 5] is default 21:20:14 ....maybe 21:20:29 yeah i believe that's how it works 21:21:05 so maybe just have is_partition as cond 21:21:08 oklopol: okay so i just put the list in there directly. 21:21:19 instead of that whole lambda 21:21:24 ah 21:21:58 I THINK. 21:22:41 61.5558609962 21:22:44 this is an achievement for me. 21:23:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 21:23:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Changing host). 21:23:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 21:25:22 oklopol: can i rename inc/dec to succ/pred 21:25:26 >_> 21:25:48 okay 21:25:52 ski now compiles in 3 seconds 21:25:57 pivotpivotpivot!!!! 21:26:02 oklopol: what 21:26:03 oklopol: it does? 21:26:05 sure 21:26:12 oklopol: holy shit give me your new clue.py, i want to see if no-conditions could actually be fast 21:26:20 :P 21:26:27 oklopol: unless you're lying 21:26:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:26:53 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2721555448.txt 21:27:08 you ... just changed stuff.py? not clue.py? 21:27:17 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1499968214.txt 21:27:19 both 21:27:20 sry 21:28:48 rather obvious change 21:29:02 it just does... well exactly what i explained earlier 21:29:07 but 21:29:22 +def check_demolishing(f): 21:29:22 + if getattr(f,'demolishing',None)==True:return True 21:29:22 + return False 21:29:23 oklopol: lol 21:29:28 note that functions are partitioned into demolishing and nondemolishing ones because i just wrote it where my cursor was :D 21:29:30 yeaah :D 21:29:30 oklopol: "return getattr(f,'demolishing',False)" 21:29:31 xD 21:29:33 i knwo 21:29:35 *know 21:29:42 made me laugh when i saw what my fingers had done 21:30:06 but i wanted to leave it as a surprise for ya 21:30:27 xD 21:31:01 hmm.... it's very likely i won't get pivot to work without the pointer idea 21:31:09 i wonder if there's some two line solution for that... 21:31:26 " note that functions are partitioned into demolishing and nondemolishing ones because i just wrote it where my cursor was :D" <<< you should be laughing at this instead of that two line demolishing check tho 21:31:34 i'll fix it now 21:31:55 + for (funname,fun) in demolishingfuns+nondemolishingfuns: 21:31:57 oklopol: that's the same as functions 21:32:01 that list you construct 21:32:02 :D 21:32:05 it's really not 21:32:11 oh does the order matter 21:32:12 lol 21:32:26 unfortunately it does, see things are added one functions at a time 21:32:50 hello 21:32:56 for a reason that is rather irrelevant at this point 21:32:58 might i just add that i hate humans 21:33:10 thank you 21:33:44 oklopol: oaky, merged your changes in, time to test 21:34:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:35:35 UnboundLocalError: local variable 'newobjects' referenced before assignment 21:35:39 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:35:56 oh lol 21:35:58 indentation :D 21:36:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:36:40 $ python cluetest.py 21:36:40 1.07862401009 21:36:41 oklopol: ^ 21:36:46 oklopol: ski without conditionals 21:37:04 oklopol: does that mean that removing conditionals has... made it go faster? 21:37:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:38:05 or maybe it means my computer is very slow 21:38:20 oklopol: well okay but mine didn't do ski faster than 20s either 21:38:25 oklopol: point is: hey removing conditions is practical!! 21:38:27 because it couldn't possibly be faster without conditionals 21:38:30 i mean compilation couldn't 21:38:32 well eys 21:38:34 *yes 21:38:34 but 21:38:38 it's not a problem 21:38:40 because the rest is so faster 21:38:41 oklopol: has pivot compiled yet 21:38:43 yarr 21:38:44 no :( 21:38:53 oklopol: i'll try with my faster computer? :p 21:39:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:39:32 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2549382249.txt 21:39:37 go ahead, code might be wrong as well... 21:39:52 but i think i've tested everything except pivot at least 21:40:00 i seriously need to add that :: thing 21:40:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:40:03 test cases 21:41:00 oklopol: i could make a repl for luatrelang :P 21:41:24 erm.... 21:41:32 Exception: Can't compile caaar pivot helper(), triple(), cons to caaar(), caaar with consed(), make singleton(), car pivot helper(), caaar(), pivot(), cons to car(), caar() 21:41:35 i get to modify your code!! 21:41:39 erm what 21:41:40 it can't even compile the things outside pivot now, maybe ski just happened to be faster :\ 21:41:41 hey 21:41:45 oklopol: lol 21:41:56 oklopol: i didn't save my old clue.py 21:41:58 you bastard :D 21:42:03 it's the only list prog i have so hard to say 21:42:04 :P 21:42:35 you can just comment car.demolishing = True. 21:42:46 what does that do. 21:42:48 make it faster? :p 21:42:58 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:43:03 if you comment that out, it's basically the same as earlier 21:43:10 it's just demolishing funcs are tried first. 21:43:41 presumably cdr too 21:43:42 so at all times, you will have, in the list of found objects, every object that's a subobject of it 21:43:50 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:43:51 oklopol: pivot still going, are you sure this will compile in finite time? 21:43:53 *for every object, every subobject that's a ... 21:43:57 not relaly. 21:43:58 *really 21:44:00 see i just realized 21:44:01 that 21:44:13 no wait nm 21:44:19 well yeah 21:44:20 like 21:44:25 * elliott tries to compile without pivot 21:44:27 argh 21:44:29 uh this is... uncharacteristically slow 21:45:05 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:45:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:45:09 there should be an simple way to disable compilation of something 21:45:11 *a 21:45:46 still churning 21:46:23 hmmhmm. 21:46:28 oklopol: i don't think this change was a good idea :D 21:46:35 it was 21:46:40 but hmm 21:46:43 oklopol: well this... definitely went faster before. 21:46:59 huh? you've compiled that before? 21:47:05 When a line of text is centered vertically in a box, should it use only the part above the baseline for centering the text? 21:47:08 oklopol: well no. but it looks trivial. 21:47:11 oklopol: i mean without pivot 21:47:18 it still hasn't compiled such simple things as "car pivot helper" 21:47:41 so 21:47:42 okay 21:47:43 maybe 21:47:55 what i should do, is make glue simply demolish the original objects completely 21:47:59 but then not demolish any of the new ones 21:48:05 like i said at some point 21:48:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:48:24 then maybe you would get both speedy ski, and speedy other things 21:48:32 i'll try that 21:48:56 my laptop is being a great heater right now 21:48:58 thanks to clue 21:49:50 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 21:53:31 bleh :/ 21:53:44 changed, ski compiles at essentially same speed, no help with pivot :( 21:53:51 spent ages defining polynomials in coq but I got into trouble with equality 21:53:53 maybe it's wrong. 21:54:37 the notion of finite support is ugly 21:54:59 oklopol: 282.139328003 21:55:04 oklopol: to compile all the non-pivot functions in the file 21:55:08 xD 21:55:09 oklopol: note that they're all trivial :D 21:55:20 how long without demolishing? 21:55:35 oklopol: just removing the .demolishing = True stuff for car and cdr you mean? 21:55:41 yeah 21:55:46 just comment those out 21:56:02 then it's what it was before, i recall even i could compile them 21:56:17 i'll try 21:56:41 oklopol: compilin' 21:57:44 oklopol: 1.24288511276 21:57:47 oklopol: for all non-pivot functions 21:57:48 will try with pivot now 21:58:14 hmmhmm 21:58:14 see 21:58:21 pivot should work faster with demolishing. 21:58:24 the others not so much 21:58:34 oklopol: :D 21:58:44 oklopol: this is without conditionals btw 21:58:48 but i figured it can't actually *hurt* the others that much 21:58:53 although it's equivalent for this file 21:58:53 i think 22:00:21 it is 22:00:39 so umm, wanna try adding demolishing just before pivot is compiled? :D 22:00:52 oklopol: no :P 22:01:27 btw, as you may have guessed, that's essentially what strategies are, ugly workarounds so that you can help it look in the right direction 22:01:42 oklopol: yeah, i oppose them vehemently 22:01:47 oklopol: i do think you should replace the bag with something else though 22:01:51 although they have much higher ambitions than just guiding the search with utility functions 22:02:12 like what 22:02:56 oklopol: dunno 22:03:03 oklopol: i think a form of strategies but purer 22:03:08 oklopol: like, you describe what kind of algorithm is 22:03:11 "depth first recursion" might be one 22:03:16 oklopol: or like "fold" 22:03:19 and it uses that 22:04:46 except that's much less pure than strategies 22:05:28 strategies are so abstract and complicated i can't even put my finger on them 22:05:29 yay1 I slept all day! 22:05:30 :( 22:05:36 Sgeo: me too! 22:05:40 woke up at 8 22:05:46 20 22:05:50 20:00 that is 22:06:21 oklopol: yeah but 22:06:24 oklopol: it'd be describing the function 22:06:26 i guess tht's 22:06:28 icky behaviour code 22:06:49 oklopol: pivot still pivotoeing 22:06:54 :D 22:07:00 erm 22:07:08 with or without dem 22:07:09 oklopol: are you sure this isn't in an infinite loop 22:07:21 it's not an infinite loop, no 22:08:10 oklopol: greater-than-universe loop? 22:09:19 well it's superexponential 22:09:31 in that depth_lim = 5 22:09:35 oklopol: ...it is? :D 22:09:38 sure 22:09:48 why do you think it's 5 instead of 100 22:09:48 oklopol: why am i even running this then 22:09:52 erm 22:10:02 because it might find the answer before doing the complete search 22:10:23 i have no idea how deep the answer lies! 22:10:29 actually i could just calculate i guess 22:10:31 that's... so poetic 22:10:43 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:11:43 oklopol: ...you adopted my indentation convention :D 22:11:46 i'm so loved 22:12:07 i did 22:12:27 oklopol: i have a feeling it's actually harder to read, but who cares it's prettier 22:13:03 it should just infer constocaaar( car(#2) #3 ) :\ 22:13:13 maybe something is very fundamentally wrong somewhere 22:13:24 or, i have no idea what it's finding hard to do 22:13:25 oklopol: are you sure your search algorithm is working right :D 22:13:37 oklopol: erm why not put a bunch of prints with the func and its arguments above suspect functions 22:13:41 and then just look at what it's doing so much 22:13:45 FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKUFKCUFKFJDKSF 22:13:49 FUCKFUFKFUKCUFUUFUCCKCFKJUFCKUCFKUCFUKCFUKCFUKCF 22:13:52 CFUJCFUJCFUKCFKCFKCFUKCFKUCFKUCFKUCFKUCFKUCFKUCFKU 22:13:55 :D 22:13:57 LOOK AT PIVOT 22:13:58 WHAT 22:14:00 PROGRAMMING 22:14:00 LANGUAGE 22:14:01 IS 22:14:02 IT 22:14:03 WRITTEN 22:14:03 IN 22:14:05 BECAUSE 22:14:05 THAT'S 22:14:06 NOT 22:14:07 CLUE 22:14:14 um why not :D 22:14:18 what 22:14:20 's the condition? 22:14:31 ...does it have one? 22:14:33 :DDD 22:14:49 well. 22:14:49 oklopol: oh my god the poor thing's been sitting there going WHAT CONDITION IS THIS WHAAAAAAT 22:14:59 run that search up to depth five and it's possible we'll know. 22:15:02 i can't see it. 22:15:16 oklopol: so uh. fix it? :p 22:15:19 yeah, that's the kind of thing the new conditionals will be able to do 22:15:25 now, it needs to be worked around 22:15:35 oklopol: try not to work around it in a way that doesn't work without <> >_> 22:15:53 the problem is i didn't originally realize that i'll need cases for the recursive thing, and then i just split it in two cases without realizing CONDITIONS 22:15:57 branchers 22:16:07 oklopol: right well... go fix 22:16:14 will do. 22:16:32 fuck i'm blind 22:16:58 i actually have no idea how to fix that :P 22:17:04 well 22:17:06 oklopol: rewrite from scratch? :P 22:17:08 actually of course i do 22:17:08 ... 22:17:22 what i have to do, obviously, is write the condition function 22:17:27 and leave pivot as is 22:17:46 oklopol: has anyone told you that you behave exactly like a really dim but hyper kitten somehow given silly amounts of intelligene? 22:17:48 it's quite hilarious 22:17:54 *somewhat dim 22:17:58 *intelligence 22:19:14 hmm.... 22:19:36 no! actually no one *ever* told me that! 22:20:09 oklopol: well 22:20:11 now you know 22:20:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:20:22 oklopol: it has to be noted that i've been trying to think how to perfectly summarise how you act since, like, 2007 22:20:28 so maybe everyone else just gave up sooner? 22:20:40 :D 22:27:18 -!- augur has changed nick to |Rassilon|. 22:27:56 |Rassilon|: what 22:28:12 -!- |Rassilon| has changed nick to augur. 22:29:22 well fi:rassi is something you use to clean pipes 22:29:37 so isn't it fitting since augur is, well, you-know-what 22:30:02 sorry, i was reenacting the formation of timelord society in another channel 22:30:02 so 22:30:04 what i did was 22:30:11 augur: ah, that was my second guess 22:30:51 * elliott waits for first night in first minecraft game on hard 22:30:56 i told my computer hey you silly little thing that cannot handle most flash games, have here this python program that constantly allocated more and more memory while doing this impossible search for a nonexistant thing 22:30:57 i have a tiny house and no torches 22:31:04 i'll go do something else 22:31:11 oklopol: :( 22:31:11 *allocates 22:31:12 but i want fix 22:31:19 yeah yeah once my computer starts working 22:33:01 i meant i told my computer i'll go elsewhere btw, in case that was what you were :(ing about 22:33:01 oklopol im afraid of creepers 22:33:05 who isn't 22:33:06 and thinks taht make noise 22:33:08 *that 22:33:10 *things 22:33:18 what i'm saying is 22:33:19 "creepers" 22:33:21 HOW DO I MAKE NIGHT BEARABLE 22:33:36 i find creepers even scarier during the day 22:33:46 oklopol: also how do i get the courage to run outside on the first day 22:33:48 whats a creeper 22:33:50 all i have is a wooden fucking sword 22:34:03 in american parlance, a creeper is any guy who you're not attracted to who is attract to you 22:34:09 auhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oaOBSdwJP7k/TFfZbw0Py8I/AAAAAAAABFQ/crE_sdzUIR4/s1600/Twocreepers.png 22:34:10 augur: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oaOBSdwJP7k/TFfZbw0Py8I/AAAAAAAABFQ/crE_sdzUIR4/s1600/Twocreepers.png 22:34:17 in american-post-minecraft parlance 22:34:18 a creeper 22:34:21 is the worst thing in the world 22:34:26 oh, a mindcraft thing 22:34:27 "D:" 22:34:27 mine** 22:34:36 augur: yeah creeper is a special case of that 22:34:41 oklopol: also i have no food! 22:34:53 i mean mc creeper is 22:34:56 oklopol: hi skeleton out the window 22:35:21 oh god it got up here 22:35:30 oklopol 22:35:31 can skeleton shots 22:35:34 get through my door 22:35:45 when's the hard server up 22:35:52 lol no 22:36:06 oklopol: you mean my server? when i learn how not to be a pussy 22:36:20 augur, hm what would a game called mindcraft do? 22:36:29 python is using 650mb :D 22:36:35 oklopol: also also how do i look outside the window without getting scared shitless 22:36:40 and that's a fuckload for this computer 22:36:52 Vorpal: it'd be like minecraft only instead of building castles you stop being lame. 22:36:56 "In SMP, other people can't see your pictures." :D 22:37:05 augur: excuse me, minecraft is awesome? 22:37:09 castles are for losers 22:37:15 uncreative poops build castles 22:37:19 of course augur hates mc 22:37:26 the only awesome thing about mincraft is that CPU someone built 22:37:26 too straight for him. 22:37:37 and maybe some other shit i dont know about 22:37:43 but the overwhelming majority of minecraft is lame 22:37:43 augur: excuse me i believe i am working on a 128x128x128 cube made out of glass lit by lava? 22:37:45 "In SMP, other people can't see your pictures." :D <-- further if the chunk unloads from your client the painting will be gone. If that is what you meant. 22:37:47 that is half underwater? 22:37:54 elliott: sounds pretty lame to me 22:38:05 funny, 'cuz so do you 22:38:19 i dont sound lame to me 22:38:34 ah, you do to me 22:38:43 yes, the majority of mc is lame from the outside, that's rather irrelevant. how much have you actually played? 22:38:49 yeah but you're lame so your opinion doesnt count 22:38:56 oklopol: also also how do i look outside the window without getting scared shitless <-- by making the walls out of obsidian and so on 22:39:07 mc 22:39:15 Vorpal: no i'm just scared of seeing things 22:39:15 's contributions to the world are mostly uninteresting 22:39:20 oklopol: i've played absolutely none, which is why my opinion is valid. its objective and untainted by the brainwashing of minecraft usage 22:39:23 duh 22:39:32 augur: gay sex is lame! 22:39:41 i can say this 'cuz my mind is untainted 22:39:43 no but it is gay 22:39:44 elliott, make a obsidian window shutter on the outside then. Then you can see through the window and see nothing scary 22:39:53 an* 22:39:56 Vorpal: BUT THINGS ARE MAKING NOISJEFOISNKGDFH;S] 22:39:58 besides, everyone knows you're a gay, elliott 22:40:05 yeah i'm a gay woman 22:40:08 well known fact 22:40:18 elliott, hm. Make your house large enough that you can't hear anything outside when near the middle 22:40:19 oh thats right 22:40:20 hmm 22:40:23 then never go near outer walls 22:40:27 are you a gay boy or a straight woman 22:40:28 augur: right, you should clarify that tho 22:40:30 girl 22:40:34 hmph! 22:40:36 both i should think 22:40:55 a superposition of both states, using the Quantum monad! 22:41:03 your mother is a monad 22:41:13 i'm fine with people hating on mc because you can't actually build anything interesting in it, it's just actually a fuckload of fun to do it, which is what makes the game a good one 22:41:17 is that a complement or a slight 22:41:20 who knows 22:41:21 its hard to tell 22:41:27 Vorpal: there is a skeleton like 5 blocks away from me fuck i can't see it aargh 22:41:29 -!- j-invariant has joined. 22:41:40 i actually dont give a shit about minecraft, i have no opinions of it 22:41:41 j-invariant what did you do on your first night before you had stuff to make tools and shit 22:41:45 elliott, not enough windows then! 22:41:50 augur, your mother is the linguistic analogue of a monad. 22:41:51 i'm in a really tiny house with a wooden sword looking scared out of my door with not orches 22:41:53 *no torches 22:41:57 heh 22:42:01 Phantom__Hoover: so a .. monad? 22:42:15 elliott, and that is a problem. 22:42:16 I died every night for the first 10 nights or something 22:42:33 Vorpal: that's the best solution to my previous problem that i could cook up in ten minutes 22:42:44 Vorpal: the previous problem was that i was in a dense forest with no good place for a house and basically nothing apart from wood and dirt. 22:42:48 my world is quite habitable now, if you know the right places to go 22:42:52 did i mention my house's bottom layer is made out of dirt 22:43:08 elliott, wait, didn't you spawn on a beach?! 22:43:21 I Spawned on a beach 22:43:23 yes i did 22:43:25 augur: i know 22:43:26 but it was right next to a forest 22:43:31 elliott, also digging down a few blocks will aways get to stone 22:43:33 O FUCKING GOD THE SKELETON JUST WALKED PAST MY DOOR 22:43:40 Vorpal: couldn't have got enough stone in time 22:43:40 anyway 22:43:41 oh god 22:43:42 can it see me 22:43:44 through the door 22:43:47 it can can't it 22:43:52 if so: can it hurt me 22:43:56 " j-invariant what did you do on your first night before you had stuff to make tools and shit" <<< it takes about 3 minutes to get rock tools 22:43:57 elliott, on Peaceful, I shouldn't bother with lighting, should I? 22:43:59 elliott, uh, you have 10 minutes from starting the first day until the first dusk 22:44:01 stone 22:44:05 elliott, what were you waiting for 22:44:13 Sgeo: well. if you don't care about being able to see at night, sure. 22:44:23 Vorpal: well first i had to walk to where there were trees, 30 seconds 22:44:41 Vorpal: then i cut down two trees, waited for the saplings, and replanted (second one i looked for a big one) - 2 minutes about 22:44:47 elliott, funny definition of "right next to" ;) 22:44:55 is there a way to list you XYZ coordinates? or would that be cheating? 22:44:55 ok it was actually 10 seconds. 22:44:57 Vorpal: then i walked until i found some land that wasn't a fucking forest 22:44:59 Vorpal: like 2 minutes 22:45:01 j-invariant: F3 22:45:13 Vorpal: then i climbed to the top of it 22:45:15 Vorpal: like 2 minutes 22:45:16 elliott, waiting for the saplings would be wrong thing to do at that stage unless it is the only tree near it 22:45:21 Vorpal: then i cut down a biiig tree to make space for a house 22:45:23 "waited for the saplings"? 22:45:24 about 2 minutes 22:45:28 oklopol: to generate 22:45:29 ah great! that will make coordinate two tunnels much easier 22:45:40 elliott, that was wasted time 22:45:41 Vorpal: then i started building my house, about 2 to 3 minutes 22:45:55 generate what? 22:45:58 Vorpal: finally it was done, then all the way through this i crafted a few things 22:45:59 new trees? :D 22:46:04 pick, sword, bench 22:46:08 that was about 2 minutes in total then 22:46:14 so yes, it started getting dark soon after. 22:46:21 oklopol: umm saplings spawn on leaves if you cut down a tree 22:46:25 oklopol: then the leaves decay and they fall 22:46:25 elliott, crafting takes 2-5 seconds usually 22:46:30 why didn't you just hack them? 22:46:31 Vorpal: i meant crafting in total. 22:46:34 oklopol: what 22:46:37 yes 22:46:38 the leaves? 22:46:38 well 22:46:52 oklopol: i did 22:46:59 oklopol: but you have to wait for the saplings to generate to get more 22:47:00 elliott, sure that takes some times. But point is, you wasted time on waiting for saplings 22:47:09 Vorpal: i.e. logs -> wood, wood -> sticks, -> workbench, -> pick, -> sword 22:47:10 ignore them until you have a good shelter 22:47:13 who cares, saplings took like 20 seconds in total 22:47:14 so stfu 22:47:22 also the craftings above weren't done all at once 22:47:23 so yeah 22:47:28 pretty much didn't stand around for a second. 22:47:40 elliott: you will get at least 2 saplings from a tree without any waiting 22:47:41 Goddamn it Sam Hughes, update your blog more. 22:47:52 come back you fucking skeleton i want to kill you 22:48:02 usually, that is 22:48:18 i did it 22:48:19 omg 22:48:21 i am a hero 22:48:38 did i mention i am on hard 22:48:52 skeletons are the same on hard 22:49:07 ...i mean CONGRATULATIONS! :) 22:49:10 oklopol: shut up 22:49:17 oklopol: their arrows deal greater damage 22:49:19 elliott, suggestion for better first day handling: craft bench with first log, then axe with the next few. Cut down some more, craft pickaxe. Now build a shelter around the bench you placed, use wood and/or dirt or whatever is around. Doesn't matter if it is in wooded area, Way better that it is near spawn in case you die. Then you will have a nearby shelter 22:49:20 true. 22:49:31 elliott, then hunt coal 22:49:34 but that's less discouraging 22:49:51 elliott, now, second day you look for a nice place for actual main base 22:49:56 also i didn't remember that, but that's not important. 22:50:35 another way to do things: take random direction, RUN 22:50:41 elliott, you can craft the sword during the first night. Also keep track of time so you can get back to shelter in time 22:50:50 work all day, run all night 22:51:05 shelters are for wimps 22:51:28 oklopol: I did that once 22:51:36 oklopol: except 22:51:40 oklopol: a creeper exploded me in the water 22:51:45 and i had to get onto land or shit would happen 22:51:49 because another was coming 22:51:51 so i got onto land 22:51:55 and then a zombie appeared 22:51:58 and the creeper got there 22:52:03 so i died, pretty much 22:53:28 i would've survived all that. 22:53:30 all of it. 22:53:36 elliott, hm you never see any live humans. But there are skeletons and zombies. Presumably you are like the last man on earth. Post-apocalypse. Except scenery looks too untouched for that. 22:53:40 oklopol: what would you have done, then 22:53:45 Vorpal: there is one other ... 22:53:50 elliott, a hoax yeah 22:53:54 well you know, the usual i woulda killed them all 22:53:58 Vorpal: h e r o b r . . 22:54:03 with my BARE HANDS 22:54:06 elliott, the hoax yes 22:54:11 oklopol: yeah i tried that, but they killed me 22:54:14 Vorpal: Stop. 22:54:20 elliott, stop what? 22:54:26 it's hard to explain, i'd have to show you 22:55:02 elliott, oh wait, do you use that mod that adds him? IIRC there was some human-mob mod too. That added both friendly and enemy humans. That built stuff even. 22:55:29 any mod to do it is probably not as good as it should be 22:55:40 i doubt he cuts down trees, for instance 22:55:44 elliott, they did 22:55:50 elliott, they didn't add doors though iirc 22:55:51 they, i mean a herobrine mod 22:55:56 the human mob stuff you can go up to 22:56:01 herobrine you can't get near 22:56:11 hm? 22:56:40 Vorpal: he's always just out of reach. 22:56:44 okay why do all the enemy mobs have such fucking terrifying noises 22:57:15 lol 22:57:18 two hours ago: 22:57:19 http://twitter.com/notch/status/23849639551700992 22:57:23 suspiciously 22:57:24 SPECIFIC 22:57:25 denial 22:57:26 don't you think? 22:57:56 "Oh no, I don't have a sister called Sandra who killed 10 people and then became web-famous by pretending to be a fish. And she definitely isn't secretly half-black." 22:58:04 (i feel this situation is comparable) 22:58:29 Vorpal: http://manicdigger.sourceforge.net/news/ 22:59:03 someone showed that to notch on twitter and he's all ":|||" 22:59:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:59:24 elliott, what does it do? It doesn't really say. Just news. 22:59:30 Vorpal: um look at screenshots 22:59:31 it's a MC clone 22:59:35 ah 22:59:36 seems to be compatible with MC servers too, well, circa july 22:59:57 doesn't seem updated 23:00:03 heh apparently it's actually about as old as mc... presumably they, eh, realigned their priorities after MC got popular though 23:00:09 probably better coded mind you 23:00:15 probably 23:00:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:01:00 (i feel this situation is comparable) <-- not really no 23:01:06 yes 23:01:37 elliott, so is that the semi-mythical Minecraft Clone With A Chance? 23:01:48 -!- invariable has joined. 23:01:51 no 23:01:53 Phantom__Hoover: It doesn't look good mind you. 23:01:54 elliott, he stated he never had a brother except a half-one he never met. And that herobrine isn't real. Presumably in reply to someone? 23:01:57 And Notch seems pissed. 23:01:58 :( 23:02:01 Vorpal: Herobrine is real. 23:02:05 "Yeah, I pretty much live by XKCD" ————————————————————Notch~~~~~ 23:02:08 (1) it's lowercase 23:02:10 (2) ha ha ha ha ha die 23:02:11 -!- invariable has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:02:13 (3) did i mention i hate you 23:02:17 (4) oh how i hate you 23:02:29 elliott, why not boycott the game then! 23:02:36 Well, yes, but he's *Notch*. He always hates people who build on his work. 23:02:36 too addictive 23:02:40 elliott, Herobrine is real? 23:02:42 Evidence? 23:02:49 if notch were a drug dealer 23:02:52 Phantom__Hoover, none whatsoever :P 23:02:52 he would b... 23:02:53 wait 23:02:54 uh 23:02:55 he kind of is. 23:03:08 Phantom__Hoover: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/6/68/1283223082465.jpg has photographic proof. 23:03:29 Phantom__Hoover, well know hoax :P 23:03:38 Vorpal is wrong. 23:03:39 elliott, "photographic proof" is completely useless here. 23:03:49 Hell, there's an hMod plugin that adds Herobrine. 23:04:07 Phantom__Hoover: did you know: talking to people who refuse to not take anything seriously is like talking to Vorpal 23:04:34 Huh? 23:04:37 -!- drakhan has joined. 23:04:44 That parses weirdly for me. 23:04:50 elliott, I don't take things too seriously 23:04:58 Maybe I don't take things seriously enough... 23:05:03 Am I the anti-Vorpal? 23:05:27 elliott, are you saying that you aren't being serious about Herobrine? 23:05:39 absolutely not 23:05:41 herobrine is real 23:05:46 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to AntiVorpal. 23:05:57 -!- elliott has changed nick to Sgeo. 23:06:05 [Note: This nick should not be construed to mean that I hate Vorpal] 23:06:05 Factor 23:06:25 AntiVorpal, you should ghost elliott now :P 23:06:27 hmm, guess it broke again :D 23:06:35 Vorpal: just steal my nick :{ 23:06:38 that is punishment enough 23:06:42 to know the evil Vorpal is using my nick 23:06:49 Sgeo, har, as if I would let myself be ghosted 23:07:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:07:15 yay 23:07:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:07:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:07:42 so that's your password sgeo? 23:07:48 * AntiVorpal promises not to do that again, unless you actually get on my nerves 23:07:54 + Sgeo (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott) has joined #esoteric <-- except you aren't logged in as him 23:08:00 i didn't bother 23:08:25 (FWIW, the only evidence I would actually accept of Herobrine (or any other ultra-rare events in a moddable game) would be if someone actually pointed me to the exact line where it says addHerobrine() in the MC jar.) 23:08:45 Herobrine? 23:08:47 Phantom__Hoover, would you accept add_herobrine() instead? 23:09:07 AntiVorpal, widespread Minecraft myth. 23:09:12 Vorpal, NO. 23:10:03 Phantom__Hoover: you DO realise that nobody believes herobrine? 23:10:09 it is, and always has been, a joke 23:10:35 Sgeo, well, I do now. 23:10:41 Sgeo, this one: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=111753 23:10:48 Hey, when you pulled similar BS on me, you didn't admit it until I directly asked another channel and made a fool of myself there 23:11:07 AntiVorpal: yes, because you believing that was hilarious in a pathetic kind of way. 23:11:10 oklopol: done it yet? 23:11:13 AntiVorpal, what do you expect from elliott? 23:11:24 Vorpal, is consistency too much to ask? 23:11:37 Vorpal: dude, he reacted to "#machomebrew" by asking whether Apple _really_ didn't let people run unsigned code on their computers 23:11:50 and then kept believing it when me and Phantom__Hoover told him how, yes indeed, there were only a few interpreters and they only ran signed code 23:12:03 Sgeo, what makes you think I actually believed it? 23:12:04 Sgeo, I presume that channel is for their locked down products then? 23:12:13 AntiVorpal: um because you've been offended by it ever since? 23:12:16 Vorpal: no, it's a package manager. 23:12:28 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to elliott. 23:12:30 Sgeo, well okay. Did he know this? 23:12:40 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:12:49 Vorpal: no. but it was damn obvious that we were mocking him. 23:13:00 beyond even "moron in a hurry" level. 23:13:07 -!- elliott has joined. 23:13:08 -!- elliott has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 23:13:15 darn, one second too quick 23:13:16 Sgeo, that was not very nice. 23:13:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 23:13:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:13:30 Phantom_Hoover: sgeo did it to me :) 23:13:34 Sgeo, I have it on secure in any case. 23:13:44 don't care, i just wanted to ghost you 23:13:51 like herobrine 23:13:52 darn, one second too quick 23:14:10 yes 23:14:11 Hey, I'm not threatening to ghost you again... until I get bored of this nick, at any rate 23:14:13 i could have ghosted you again 23:14:28 And I'll likely give you warning 23:14:41 how do you screenshot? 23:14:51 j-invariant: F1+F2 23:14:53 didn't i tell you that 23:14:54 whoever is the real elliott atm: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=122479 23:15:00 that's Phantom_Hoover 23:15:00 you might be interested in that 23:15:19 hmm. 23:15:27 does it still authenticate you if you choose to stay back 23:15:27 no idea if it logs in 23:15:32 I haven't tried it 23:15:41 http://www.minecraftforum.net/download/file.php?avatar=49238_1293764836.jpg omg what are these, they look delicious 23:16:01 http://i.imgur.com/c50oW.png 23:16:04 lol one of the idlers in here replied to that thread 23:16:05 okay sgeo is ehird I guess. *checks /whois* 23:16:17 j-invariant, yes? 23:16:20 Vorpal, you weren't paying attention to the nick changes? 23:16:31 reminds me of when Gregor and I were each other for like 23:16:31 hours 23:16:33 j-invariant: :D 23:16:35 j-invariant: tree hideaway 23:16:39 AntiVorpal, well not after "+ elliott is now known as Phantom_Hoover" 23:16:45 can yu see the creepers 23:16:54 they watch me at night :( 23:17:03 j-invariant, switch to peaceful? 23:17:09 * AntiVorpal is now known as JesusChrist 23:17:27 * Sgeo downloads the untested os x version 23:17:33 j-invariant: why not build a house :P 23:18:04 How do we end up with such an insane number of lurkers? 23:18:25 aww hi creeper :3 23:18:28 creepers are kinda cute 23:18:30 i actually don't mind them 23:18:37 i'd rather have all creepers and no zombies/spiders/skeletons 23:18:39 creepers don't make scary noises 23:18:42 and are relatively easy to deal withi 23:18:44 *with 23:19:02 question 23:19:07 how do you guys pick up enemy drops at night 23:19:12 like i don't wanna lose this sulphur 23:20:15 Sgeo: is there a way to deal with this?? http://i.imgur.com/KqQ16.png 23:20:25 j-invariant: sure 23:20:25 he is going to destroy D: 23:20:30 j-invariant: get close to it, bash with sword 23:20:32 he'll retreat 23:20:33 go up to him 23:20:34 repeat 23:20:42 either he'll die or, worst case, explode further away from your structure 23:21:47 Sgeo: is there a way to deal with this?? http://i.imgur.com/KqQ16.png <-- your structure looks insufficiently secured? 23:21:54 oh shut up 23:22:00 it's easy enough to deal with creeper 23:22:00 s 23:22:02 I mean, no walls 23:22:04 and beauty takes priority 23:22:04 no roof 23:22:06 and so on 23:22:07 so what 23:22:08 -!- MigoMipo_A has quit (Quit: Bye). 23:22:08 who cares 23:22:22 well, what is it? not a shelter at least 23:22:32 i think i'm going to build a house on top of a high stack of dirt 23:22:44 Sgeo, and beauty comes second place to "does it's job well" 23:22:56 Vorpal: it is obviously not meant for use at night 23:23:07 Sgeo: cool! it worked 23:23:15 Sgeo, indeed. 23:23:20 j-invariant: :) 23:23:23 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to elliott. 23:23:29 don't wanna not get credit for all this good advice 23:23:59 Sgeo, and if being beautiful is the job then of course it comes in first place. By the same definition. 23:24:19 elliott, ^ 23:24:40 umm 23:24:46 i don't see the relevance 23:25:05 you know what would be cool? an smp server which spawns everyone really far away from each other 23:25:11 with monsters that it 23:25:24 you'd have to set up a little empire and fort before you have enough materials and stuff to start finding other people 23:26:16 "At the end of 2010, the "open-source" software movement, whose activists tend to be fringe academics and ponytailed computer geeks" — wall street journal. ha 23:26:31 -!- AntiVorpal has changed nick to Sgeo. 23:26:36 /ns ghost sgeo 23:26:47 elliott, somehow, I'm not scared 23:26:47 stop stealing Sgeo's nick, antivorpal 23:27:09 seth, gold, activeworlds... no passwords found yet 23:27:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:27:20 Sgeo, and beauty comes second place to "does it's job well" 23:27:27 *its 23:27:57 Vorpal, there is no actual need for walls when you're in the air. 23:28:11 Phantom_Hoover, true. But how did the creeper get up? 23:29:07 It's not on the structure. 23:29:11 As can be plainly seen. 23:29:26 Phantom_Hoover: Omg, I should make a wall-less house. 23:29:29 Just floor and ceiling. 23:29:32 In the air. 23:29:42 Incidentally, I gave Vegastrike a try and found it supremely boring. 23:29:42 hmm, that was a power cut 23:31:06 It's not on the structure. <-- it is up in the tree however 23:31:34 and actually very near the structure. In fact I think it is in it, it looks like it dips down there 23:32:01 Yay at my step-mother calling me mentally ill 23:32:04 * Sgeo angers 23:32:15 lolllllll 23:32:25 sgeo home of stability 23:32:29 Phantom_Hoover, it feels like it had potential to be a good game, but the project seems to have more or less died. Or seemed to when I last checked. 23:32:38 elliott, my step-mother doesn't live here 23:32:42 If she did, I'd go insane 23:32:47 *sgeo, 23:32:58 it's a slogan 23:33:17 Sgeo, how have you not murdered your stepmother yet 23:33:28 elliott: i found an actual, meaningful error in the compile 23:33:28 r 23:33:42 oklopol: :D 23:33:44 one that's not a missed typo, but a complete failure of brianing 23:33:46 *braining 23:34:13 Vorpal, yes... I think it's just a general lack of interest in space sims. 23:34:24 unless i'm mistaken, everything is completely wrong, although it's very hard to notice. 23:34:31 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[food]. 23:34:56 like, i'm not sure multiple examples have actually helped the brancher at all, or something :D 23:35:03 not sure what the situ is yet 23:35:30 Literally the only two I can think of in active development are Oolite (held afloat on a raft of nostalgia) and Infinity (depressingly near being vapourware). 23:36:05 Phantom_Hoover, realistic space sims: too small market segment 23:36:09 EVE does not count as a space sim here, since it's more of a MMO RTS. 23:36:29 Vorpal, no, I mean generic space flight sims. 23:36:44 the great thing about asteroids ii is that it has great market potential! 23:36:49 Phantom_Hoover, generic as in including unrealistic ones too? 23:36:56 Vorpal, yes. 23:37:00 hm 23:37:02 it's basically an insane shooter! but awesome! 23:37:14 Phantom_Hoover, that's stranger. 23:37:37 I'm defining space sim as "you have a spaceship which you fly around in a non-automated fashion". 23:37:57 is minecraft in that definition? 23:37:58 Which excludes EVE etc. in one fell stroke, since their flight system is "right click". 23:38:27 Phantom_Hoover: Have I mentioned that I am terrible at Asteroids? 23:38:29 <3 MMORTS 23:38:33 elliott, you haven't 23:38:36 Maybe I should get involved with EVE? 23:38:52 I like Shattered Galaxy a lot, except for having to decide what stats to put points into 23:38:52 Sgeo: If you like spreadsheets. 23:38:54 Sgeo, do you enjoy fiddling with Excel? 23:38:58 Sgeo: EVE has a lot of that. 23:39:06 You "learn" automatically. Somehow. 23:39:07 I don't like the thought of applying math 23:39:10 But it takes time. 23:39:21 Sgeo, well, there's none of *that*. 23:39:23 Math for math's sake is fun. Math for gaming purposes is not. 23:39:26 If you're not good at accounting EVE is probably going to be a bit of a drag, though. 23:39:43 No EVE, then. Ok. 23:39:46 Sgeo: BTW, if you're good enough, you can play for free. You can buy the monthly subscription with in-game money. 23:40:07 You'd probably have to spend a few months paid and also be amazing to be able to do that exclusively, though. 23:40:22 And you might have to blow up some ships and steal their money to do it. 23:40:35 (Yes, this is legal in EVE.) 23:40:47 It's sad, really: space sims are a venerable genre with a history going back nearly as far as the idea of using a computer to play games. 23:41:24 * Sgeo <3 Microsoft Allegiance 23:42:16 "Allegiance, the multiplayer space-combat game from the minds of Microsoft Research, combines the challenges of tactical squadron-based combat, intense one-on-one space dogfights, and amazing graphical and sound effects into a space-action experience like nothing you've seen before." 23:42:19 Like Asteroids II, but worse. 23:42:58 oh is it 3d? lol 23:43:01 crap 23:43:22 I also get the sense that I am the only person under the age of 40 in the Oolite community. 23:43:24 elliott, that website is dead 23:43:39 Sgeo: It's probably not Newtonian, and it's also 3D. 23:43:39 http://freeallegiance.org/ 23:43:51 Sgeo: It is, therefore, *vastly* inferior to Asteroids II. 23:44:03 elliott, Newtonian 3D flight is not something with a good reputation. 23:44:08 cf. Frontier. 23:44:13 Phantom_Hoover: That's why Asteroids II isn't 3D. 23:44:28 Phantom_Hoover: As far as I know a 2D Newtonian space shooter just hasn't been created yet. 23:44:32 You do realize it's not a single-player game? 23:44:44 Sgeo: Asteroids II doesn't even have a single player mode ... or if it does it's a very low priority. 23:44:52 Oh 23:44:53 (I *really* want to give the ICP a spin, but it's Windows only and even on Wine it falls afoul of the Evil Graphical Glitch. 23:44:55 *) 23:45:03 Phantom_Hoover: ICP? 23:45:20 elliott, the prototype of Infinity's combat. 23:45:26 Ah. 23:45:42 Sgeo: Um, do you actually know what Asteroids II is? 23:45:45 Notable for a) being the only solid evidence of progress and b) being Newtonian and 3D. 23:45:46 No 23:45:52 Asteroids II? 23:45:54 Sgeo, http://au.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2000/p2_15.html 23:46:20 Sgeo: It's a 2D multiplayer space shooter based on Newtonian mechanics with gravity (including orbits) and localised physics distortions (e.g. slowing down the speed of light to trap someone, then shooting the hell out of that bubble before they can escape). 23:46:27 Phantom_Hoover, why newtonian? 23:46:28 It's the awesome physics-based space shooter that me, elliott and (sort of) oklopol came up with. 23:46:40 Vorpal: Because orbits. 23:46:48 elliott, why not base it on general relativity? 23:46:50 Vorpal, in the case of ICP, who knows. 23:46:55 Vorpal: Ha ha ha ha ha ah a ha ha ha hahahaahahahahahahahaha 23:47:12 Vorpal, because I do not actually have any idea what the hell a tensor is or what they do. 23:47:13 elliott, I don't think Astroids II and Allegiance are in competition 23:47:21 Phantom_Hoover, ah 23:47:22 [Says the person who always abandons one language for another] 23:47:27 Sgeo: Yes, sure they are. 23:47:36 Allegiance is a bad shooter that is neither Newtonian nor 2D. 23:47:39 Asteroids II is therefore superior. 23:47:48 elliott, why is being 3D bad as such? 23:47:57 Vorpal: Because movement in 3D is a bitch and distracts from shooting shit. 23:48:01 elliott, oi, those criteria include FS2 which was good. 23:48:02 Also you can't do Newtonian well in 3D. 23:48:05 It ends up not being fun. 23:48:05 elliott, uh. Joystick? 23:48:13 Phantom_Hoover: >_> 23:48:18 Vorpal: Still not nearly as smooth as 2D. 23:48:22 elliott, it was! 23:48:35 elliott, 3D is perfectly navigatable with joystick. Though not very much with just keyboard and mouse 23:48:41 It's cathartic when you need to blow stuff up! 23:49:03 Vorpal: Regardless, 3D Newtonian is a bitch. 23:49:05 And Newtonian is <3. 23:49:09 Ergo 2D. (Or 4D!) 23:49:09 elliott, to code or? 23:49:13 Vorpal: To play. 23:49:16 It's not very fun. 23:49:33 2D Newtonian hasn't been reacted-to yet because as of yet nobody has done it, as far as we know. 23:49:41 However it's probably going to be superficially similar to Asteroids in how flight works. 23:49:44 Thus the codename. 23:49:45 elliott, hm. Do you dislike realistic 3D sims in general? 23:49:51 elliott, such as flightsims. 23:49:54 elliott, erm, Asteroids is 2D Newtonian. 23:49:58 (In that turning around doesn't actually stop you flying in the way you're flying.) 23:50:01 Phantom_Hoover: Is it proper Newtonian? 23:50:04 Spacewar is 2D Newtonian. 23:50:09 Or just a vague approximation? 23:50:10 Star Control is 2D Newtonian. 23:50:17 elliott, define "proper". 23:50:23 Phantom_Hoover: As proper as gravity.lisp. 23:50:33 star control had that yeah 23:50:33 elliott, similar thing happens in Alleg. It's not Newtonian though, need thrusters to keep moving etc 23:50:33 If not, as far as I'm concerned, gravity basically changes a lot. 23:50:35 in fights 23:50:43 elliott, no, but the essential features are there, other than unlimited acceleration. 23:50:56 Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's the little bits that'll be innovative. :p 23:50:56 at least it rings a bell 23:50:57 Also, why not a relativistic 2d game, instead of newtonian? 23:51:02 (In that turning around doesn't actually stop you flying in the way you're flying.) <-- well duh. Even EV Override does that. It's 2D. And it is hardly realistic when it comes to other stuff (no gravity from planets and so on) 23:51:03 And Spacewar and Star Control both have (limited) gravitation. 23:51:04 Sgeo: Because we're doing it on computers. 23:51:16 elliott, uh? 23:51:16 Sgeo, because the calculations for that are sodding difficult. 23:51:20 Phantom_Hoover: Ours isn't limited. :p 23:51:22 Oh 23:51:26 Sgeo: Additionally multiplayer would be impossible. 23:51:30 You need, like, perfect sync. 23:51:32 "I cannot understand the equations" difficult. 23:51:44 "I cannot get even the vague gist of the equations" difficult. 23:51:50 Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, physics distortion is innovative. :p 23:52:02 "I do not understand the concepts behind the equations" difficuly. 23:52:05 elliott, IS IT 23:52:07 Is there any way I can help? 23:52:24 If Sgeo gets involved, I'm quitting 23:52:33 Sgeo: Can you program in Amber? 23:52:42 elliott, I'm sure I can learn Amber 23:52:45 elliott, not fair. It is a new language you invented for this. 23:52:45 OK, it's day. I'm going to go out there, sword in hand, try not to die, and punch some trees. 23:52:51 Sgeo, see that too ^ 23:52:59 Vorpal: My, my, life isn't fire, Vorpal. 23:53:02 *fair, 23:53:02 elliott, I'm sure I can learn Amber 23:53:04 It _is_ fire. 23:53:08 elliott, *I* cannot program in Amber. 23:53:17 Phantom_Hoover: No, but I hired you on other criteria. 23:53:19 Phantom_Hoover, wha? 23:53:30 Is only elliott _capable_ of programming in Amber? 23:53:35 -!- augur[food] has changed nick to augur. 23:53:38 Anyone can, it's a trivial language :P 23:53:38 That makes no bleeding sense 23:53:41 Sgeo, elliott is making a new language just for this project 23:53:41 Sgeo, I know nothing of it other than "it's C with GC and lambdas". 23:53:55 C with lambdas ooh 23:53:57 elliott has not actually defined it beyond some code snippets. 23:53:58 Sgeo, thus only he knows it yet. 23:54:08 Oh, "making", not "made" 23:54:11 Phantom_Hoover, is he slacking? 23:54:13 adding GC doesn't really have to change anything 23:54:19 for the progger 23:54:28 oklopol: yeah it's just that the GC is precise 23:54:30 He has concluded that CL is TOO SLOW and that I need to program 3 inches from the metal. 23:54:34 oklopol: which you can't do in C without ugly annotations 23:54:44 Phantom_Hoover: Too slow, not really, but without bindings to things we need, yes. 23:54:47 Phantom_Hoover, based on profiling? 23:54:53 Phantom_Hoover: Too slow, not really, but without bindings to things we need, yes. 23:54:54 Vorpal: ^ 23:55:04 elliott, yes it arrived same second 23:55:05 Also, as much as you love profiling, it is possible to use reason as well as blind testing. 23:55:05 elliott, erm, one can always bind with CL's FFI. 23:55:11 elliott, there are no good CL implementations with good ways to bind to ... what Phantom_Hoover said 23:55:16 Phantom_Hoover: ...which is a large project in itself. 23:55:27 Amber is explicitly designed to not require bindings. 23:55:39 elliott, larger than writing your own language and using the C interface? 23:55:47 Making it a perfect language for Active Worlds bots! 23:55:56 Phantom_Hoover: Amber is also a nice language. :p 23:56:08 Phantom_Hoover: ALSO: GC time. 23:56:17 _Any_ GC that causes _any_ significant pause is completely unacceptable. 23:56:22 Because the game will freeze. 23:56:30 Gregor's generational GC is much faster than boehm. 23:56:39 So hopefully it won't cause noticeable pauses. 23:56:50 And current CL GCs? 23:56:52 (If it does, I'll have to see if I can get a parallel GC.) 23:56:55 Phantom_Hoover: Are stop-the-world. 23:57:07 elliott, what about haskell gc 23:57:07 elliott, all of them? 23:57:15 Vorpal, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 23:57:24 Vorpal: A Haskell game would spend an upsetting amount of time in IO without FRP. 23:57:25 Phantom_Hoover, I do not know the model of haskell's gc 23:57:28 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Well, maybe not Franz's. 23:57:37 Vorpal: GHC's garbage collector is concurrent but I do not know that it's parallel. 23:57:47 elliott, what's the best way for me to learn FRP? 23:57:53 elliott, hm 23:57:59 Sgeo: Don't. 23:58:04 There are no useful implementations yet. 23:58:05 elliott, why not? 23:58:06 Oh 23:58:07 elliott, and why not use FRP then? 23:58:17 Vorpal: There are no useful implementations yet. Well, a few contenders, but. 23:58:19 what is FRP? 23:58:21 Definitely nothing commercial-ready. 23:58:22 elliott, ah 23:58:25 coppro: functional reactive programming 23:58:27 oh 23:58:33 thanks for clearing it up 23:58:35 j-invariant: did i mention i don't know where my house is 23:58:36 coppro: YW 23:58:40 Racket has an implementation? 23:58:41 elliott: yeah umm, can you get a "greater than?" function to compile? :D 23:58:46 because i sure can't. 23:58:47 elliott, fail 23:58:48 how can you not know? 23:58:50 oklopol: I CAN TRY 23:59:00 j-invariant: because i had to walk to somewhere with enough space for a house first day 23:59:01 coppro, apparently it will make the entire world into kittens. 23:59:05 it seems conditions vs multiarg is completely wrong 23:59:11 j-invariant, he can get lost inside a 3x3x3 room in minecraft :P 23:59:19 FRP is what makes functional programming possible. 23:59:25 Rather than functional core with imperative interface code. 23:59:43 oklopol: ok i will 23:59:44 j-invariant, he is THAT bad at navigating. (Okay, slight exaggeration, but not much) 23:59:44 oklopol: sec 23:59:45 rofl 23:59:52 Going to try MC again 23:59:54 coppro: what 23:59:56 Goddamn it, I have the Star Control 2 Ur-Quan theme stuck in my head 2011-01-09: 00:00:01 elliott: you're spouting nonsense 00:00:06 coppro: I am not. 00:00:16 coppro: Alternatively: Tell that to Conal's face. 00:00:45 it's at least bulshytt 00:00:54 this looks interesting: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Functional_Reactive_Programming 00:00:55 what you're saying, anyways 00:00:59 coppro: OH MAN THANKS FOR YOUR CONVINCING ARGUMENTS 00:01:03 good to know you are right 00:01:23 i'll go back to using haskell, which is perfect as it is, obviously, despite the fact that many of the "leading" haskellers don't like IO and want FRP to succeed 00:01:30 elliott: they're as high quality as your usual arguments 00:01:37 coppro: oh, fuck off. 00:01:48 don't feel like it 00:01:57 you can just run two copies of the program, and allocate a huge amount of memory in the other one, then always take the image drawn by the program that has recently changed the screen more 00:02:06 is my solution to gc freezing 00:02:16 elliott: they're as high quality as your usual arguments <-- coppro++ 00:02:19 *allocate at first 00:02:26 so that its gc cycle is different 00:02:33 Vorpal: does it make you feel good to automatically agree with and side with anyone who doesn't agree with me? 00:02:36 your argument is pretty much a vague appeal to authority 00:02:42 you're in good company! like... Republicans! 00:02:46 rather than any argument or even explanation of FRP 00:02:46 coppro: no, see, i haven't presented any arguments 00:02:49 coppro: i've just told you to go away 00:02:53 elliott, http://docs.racket-lang.org/frtime/index.html isn't decent/ 00:03:02 elliott, I have no idea. I agreed with him based on actually agreeing on the point he was making. 00:03:12 elliott: your argument is that FRP is "what makes functional programming possible" 00:03:13 elliott, so I never tried out what you suggested. 00:03:19 coppro: the IO monad is imperative. 00:03:20 elliott: I'm not going away 00:03:23 it wasn't an argument, also. 00:03:24 it was a remark. 00:03:32 Sgeo: no, it isn't. a good general implementation of FRP requires solutions to a few open research problems. 00:03:50 the IO monad is interprative only depending on your interpretation of it 00:04:08 elliott, does it feel good to always use strawman arguments by the way? 00:04:22 Vorpal: ah... you see, you are making the same mistake as coppro 00:04:25 I'm not making an argument. 00:04:28 I'm telling you to fuck off. 00:04:40 elliott, I am replying to this line in the same style: " Vorpal: does it make you feel good to automatically agree with and side with anyone who doesn't agree with me?" 00:04:48 elliott: we're not fucking off 00:04:51 coppro: the IO monad is not impure iff C is impure. 00:04:54 elliott, if you're going to tell people to fuck off, I'm going to tell you to fuck off. 00:04:56 if you wish to stop having us talk to you 00:04:58 ah, but you see, if I /ignore you, then you *will* fuck off. 00:05:00 you need to leave 00:05:04 untrue 00:05:08 i'd like to rem HER ark. 00:05:11 wait 00:05:12 IRC clients have had ignore for the past two decades 00:05:14 i'm scrolled up again 00:05:17 elliott, also appeal to authority: " coppro: Alternatively: Tell that to Conal's face." 00:05:18 then that makes even less sense 00:05:28 Vorpal: see, that was telling him to fuck off. 00:05:34 elliott: you /ignoreing me is not me fucking off; 00:05:38 if i thought an argument with coppro could be in any way productive, i would have responded differently. 00:05:44 but, you see, i don't, because he always acts the exact same way 00:05:55 oklopol: greater than works. 00:05:59 ---- greater than? 00:05:59 Condition: ['compare', '#0', '#1'] 00:06:00 Base branch (-1) 00:06:01 '#0' 00:06:03 Base branch (0) 00:06:03 elliott, actually I think FRP looks interesting. But I despise the way you argument by being a jerk. 00:06:04 elliott, I don't know if what you're saying has merit, but I am furious at you telling people to fuck off just because you disagree with them 00:06:05 '#0' 00:06:07 Base branch (1) 00:06:09 '#1' 00:06:10 elliott: obviously no Haskell code will be truly functional 00:06:15 Vorpal: *I am not arguing* 00:06:18 no code on any Von Neumann machine will be 00:06:24 coppro: ...loooool 00:06:36 elliott, okay if you say so. Looked damn similar however. 00:06:41 elliott: what the fuck 00:06:44 ignored until, say, you figure out the difference between language and implementation, coppro 00:06:46 elliott: do you want to refute my argument? 00:06:49 what the hell 00:06:50 nope 00:06:53 coppro, the impurity of Haskell lies right outside Haskell 00:06:57 Sgeo: I know 00:07:06 oh so maybe i did something completely fuck when i changed that one last bit. 00:07:26 oklopol: :D my greater than? works even if you don't give it #0 and #1 00:07:32 ---- greater than? 00:07:32 Condition: ['compare', '#0', '#1'] 00:07:32 Base branch (-1) 00:07:33 elliott: your argument is that IO is not pure because of how it is implemented, but FRP is pure because it can be implemented so that it can be pure 00:07:33 ['compare', '#0', '#0'] 00:07:35 Base branch (0) 00:07:37 ['compare', '#0', '#0'] 00:07:37 i.e. you have no logic 00:07:39 Base branch (1) 00:07:41 ['compare', '#0', '#1'] 00:07:43 oklopol: how amazing is that 00:07:58 haha 00:08:03 that's genius :D 00:08:09 Magic Set Editor scripting language is almost pure. It has a few impurities which I think could be easily corrected. 00:08:18 zzo38: lolwut 00:08:23 no it is not 00:08:37 coppro: look beneath the surface 00:08:50 elliott: can i see your code? :P 00:08:55 oklopol: what 00:09:00 coppro: Why do you think? 00:09:07 zzo38: it's an imperative language... 00:09:07 coppro: nm 00:09:10 greater than? ~ {. -1, 3 -> 0 00:09:10 . 3, 5 -> 0 } 00:09:10 greater than? ~ {. 3, 3 -> 0 00:09:11 . -2, -2 -> 0 } 00:09:13 greater than? ~ {. 3, -1 -> 1 00:09:14 it happens to have first-class functions 00:09:14 (Well, I am making TeXnicard and it is more like dc instead?) 00:09:15 lox 00:09:15 . 5, 3 -> 1 } 00:09:17 greater than? ~ compare; #0; #1 00:09:19 oklopol: maybe removing <> made it work, but i doubt it 00:09:54 coppro: No it only has local variables and those are not impure. They are only local. 00:10:12 zzo38: how do you define pure? 00:11:47 coppro: It would be pure if you change the random number functions to take a parameter "seed" which is normally by the built-in variable called "seed", which is available (and reseeded) for each export template, add card scripts, and pack generation. And also the export template functions for directory should instead return a list, ... 00:12:01 elliott: 00:12:03 zzo38: define pure for me 00:12:04 umm 00:12:10 ... and you return from the export template script, the list of all of those concatenated together and then it will copy the files. Instead of duing it immediately. 00:12:10 ValueError: substring not found :( 00:12:15 There, that would be pure. 00:12:18 look at this code snippet of mine, and tell me what you think 00:12:19 oklopol: what 00:12:19 greater than? ~ {. 5, 6 -> 0 . 10, 12 -> 1 } 00:12:20 greater than? ~ {. 2, 2 -> 0 . 6, 6 -> 1 } 00:12:22 i wrote this code 00:12:28 and then i looked at it for 15 minutes 00:12:36 coppro: Do you understand me? 00:12:38 i think i should sleep amore 00:12:39 oklopol: i think you are my favourite person and can i come live with you 00:12:43 yes 00:12:44 :D 00:12:47 HOORAY 00:12:53 i've always wanted a 15yo gf 00:13:16 xD 00:13:19 who is interested in clue 00:13:21 13 just too young? 00:13:26 oh, insufficiently clueterested 00:13:36 clueterested sounds like some...horrible medical procedure 00:13:44 zzo38: no 00:13:47 like they redirect your bladder to your balls because it got infested or something 00:13:49 zzo38: because you have failed to define pure 00:13:59 anyway! 00:14:04 I know it is not a proper definition but doesn't it help? 00:14:07 no 00:14:14 I want to know what your definition of pure it 00:14:15 *is 00:15:02 no global state? 00:15:23 coppro: That every function affects and is affected by, nothing outside of itself. Other variables outside of the function can be considered like a special kind of parameters, and so can variable assignment commands, because they can also be considered like parameters to the rest of the lines of the current function. 00:15:54 oklopol: i think you have a bug or something 00:16:06 zzo38: the current time of day is a paraemter to the program! 00:16:06 elliott: in clue.py? 00:16:07 *parameter 00:16:09 EVERYTHING IS PURE 00:16:11 oklopol: yes 00:16:15 why 00:16:16 oklopol: 00:16:25 [is list?(#0)] 00:16:25 | 0 => 0 00:16:25 | 1 => inc(#2) 00:16:27 there's only one recursion 00:16:29 and one parameter 00:16:30 zzo38: ... 00:16:30 that should be #1 00:16:33 but it isn't 00:16:35 ??? 00:16:49 (It does mean that for random numbers, you do have to keep track of the seed counter by yourself, but it could be defined a syntax to do so (like the increment operator in C) 00:16:51 i.... dunno? 00:16:58 oklopol: well. :D 00:17:03 i'll try defining the function in lu 00:17:04 LUATRE 00:17:05 luatre 00:17:07 see if it works 00:17:15 zzo38, int getRandomNumber { return 2; //chosen by a random die roll} 00:17:20 no seed required 00:17:48 (and yes - I really did just roll a die) 00:18:12 The time of day, as long as it is set only once and stays the same for as long as the function takes to execute, it can work. (You could also have it set during card script, and a "action" script that you push a key to set date/time to the script so you can set it on the card, otherwise everything changes whenever you load the set!) 00:19:39 That way, would make it pure. 00:19:57 elliott: pivot works! 00:20:41 oklopol: gimme your files so i can merge them in :D 00:20:44 oklopol: or 00:20:48 oklopol: was it just the pivot code that was bad 00:21:04 greater than? had an error, nothing else xD 00:21:29 oklopol: so the pivot code was right? 00:21:36 You could make these suggested changes if you want to make MSE pure (it is not the most important thing); or use TeXnicard (which uses a different model of templates, so it doesn't need pure). 00:25:53 elliott: i think so 00:26:09 trying to make the actual quicksort now 00:26:40 but i have this vague feeling in my balls that that's not gonna happen anytime soon 00:26:50 yeeeeeeah 00:26:51 no. 00:28:33 My new home is in the air. 00:28:36 Although it's not tall enough to jump. 00:28:42 oklopol: so can i have clue.py/stuff.py 00:28:57 -!- pingveno has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 00:28:57 but i have a huge amount of horribly ugly debug code :D 00:29:03 i can remove it :) 00:29:12 meeeeeeeeeeeeehh 00:29:18 -!- pingveno has joined. 00:29:18 oklopol: i want the coooode 00:29:21 i'll make qs wirk furst 00:29:52 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:30:06 :: dof~{.0->0.5->0}dof~{:.[[1,2],[3,4]]->2:[1,2]->1:.[[[1,2,3],4],5]->3:[[1,2,3],4]->2}dof~is list?; cons; car; cdr; inc; #0 00:30:06 TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable :( 00:30:08 what 00:30:15 :: dof~{.0->0 . 5->0}dof~{:.[[1,2],[3,4]]->2:[1,2]->1:.[[[1,2,3],4],5]->3:[[1,2,3],4]->2}dof~is list?; cons; car; cdr; inc; #0 00:30:15 TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable :( 00:30:19 halp 00:31:07 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:31:24 oklopol: ha;pl 00:32:51 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:34:34 "That's not irony." ;; on the internet NOTHING counts as ironic 00:36:04 god dammit! Coq is evil 00:36:21 it's designed to hurt me 00:36:40 everything is impossible but only after you waste 10 mins proving lemmas 00:37:55 j-invariant, you clearly have the same high standards for *everything* as elliott. 00:38:17 xD 00:38:21 air is so lame 00:38:27 To the extent that nothing actually satisfies the standards without violating several laws of physics or precepts of mathematics. 00:38:38 DAMMIT I WANT ANTIGRAVITY 00:38:47 that sounds about right :D 00:38:57 elliott: Then invent one antigravity. 00:39:00 i'm trying to think of something that i can honestly say is perfect 00:39:06 without any qualifiers 00:39:08 TeX? 00:39:11 but i just ... can't 00:39:13 Phantom_Hoover: heck no :) 00:39:21 it's even _impure_! 00:39:28 elliott, well, for what it was originally designed? 00:39:38 Phantom_Hoover: plain tex is gross, whatever zzo38 said 00:39:42 latex is a bit limited sometimes 00:39:47 TeX is very good but not quite perfect. 00:40:47 LaTeX and PDF are much worse. 00:41:09 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 00:41:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:41:27 * zzo38 - wake up 00:41:55 hi 00:42:21 elliott: btw you're right in that there kind of is an interpreter, it's only the actual function applications that are made into python functions. 00:42:22 Hello 00:42:26 but i guess you already knew that 00:42:30 told you 00:42:32 :P 00:42:36 I define a new data type like lists except that it cannot have trailing zeros: [0,1,2,0,44,5] is okay but [3,54,2,0,13,0] is a type error 00:42:56 Do you have opinion/comment/suggestion/question about this? http://sprunge.us/BFGb 00:42:59 yep, for some reason i just didn't realize that's actually a rather important part of execution, and not just something that's done at first 00:43:18 reason is probably that i haven't been able to think all that straight today 00:43:28 for instance i watched hours of gay porn 00:43:38 elliott: see above 00:43:49 j-invariant: and? 00:43:52 j-invariant: definition accepted 00:43:52 what then 00:43:54 thatos all :D 00:43:58 lol 00:44:04 now I have to program with it :( 00:44:15 oklopol: Then don't watch pornography anymore. 00:45:04 * Sgeo suddenly wants to buy Chessudoku 00:45:04 nono i think it was more like that i wasn't thinking straight so i started watching men lick each other's balls on the internet 00:45:11 and not the other way around 00:45:32 the reason for this is that i didn't sleep very well 00:45:41 my head is all wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerlie. 00:45:44 what 00:45:45 anyway 00:46:11 but yeah i'll go on with... i don't remember what but maybe i do when i open py 00:46:56 elliott: i think i managed to make a program with an actual runtime error :D 00:47:01 oklopol: wow 00:47:22 oklopol: re ball licking, i think zzo38 just doesn't want anyone to wtach pornography 00:47:24 *watch 00:47:29 at least i think quicksorting a list of 7 objects shouldn't take more than 100 deep recursion... 00:47:33 :D 00:47:50 zzo38: is this true? 00:48:00 i basically watch pornography as a hobby 00:48:11 this is absolutely crap 00:48:25 it's not possible to define this list type in any useful way 00:48:34 oklopol: No, it isn't true. I don't want to watch pornography myself, if other people do I don't complain. However, if you watch pornography and you cannot do anything else, then obviously you have done something wrong, such as not watching it upsidedown. 00:49:04 if you want to do something else, but can't, then yes, i agree, you should probably flip your screen 00:49:08 (I am not trying to stop you from watching pornography, I am just trying to suggest better things) 00:50:02 well watching porn can be interesting, once you get past the whole mmm pussy let's masturbate thing. 00:50:48 i have done rather exhaustive research in many areas, but haven't found a publisher yet. 00:50:52 elliott: I wanted to prove (forall x, [p](x) = [q](x)) -> p = q -- p and q are lists of numbers which represent polynomials, and [p] is the evaluation of p 00:51:05 oklopol: In what areas have you done exhaustive research? 00:51:21 you really want to know? 00:51:39 oklopol: No, I just want to know why you have not found a publisher yet. 00:51:40 haven't found a publisher? 00:51:46 Can you publish it by yourself? 00:51:46 the most common paraphilias, regular porn is not very interesting outside the mm pussy part 00:52:05 What is the difference? 00:53:32 hard to put into words 00:53:53 but it's interesting how people react in weird situatoins 00:53:56 *situations 00:53:57 say in scat 00:54:09 which is a *very* diverse branch of porn 00:54:41 the rules are completely different 00:55:06 O, so you want to tell the difference which pornography movies you like which are interesting as opposed to non-interesting pornography. Is that it? 00:55:42 mostly i'm interested in what people will do for money 00:55:50 and how well they can hide it 00:56:55 and also, a single type of porn will have a rather clear set of rules, for instance even you might know that in american porn, the girl blows the guy, then they have sex a couple minutes in the basic positions, then the guy jizzes in her face 00:57:13 this is not how things like bukkake and scat work 00:57:25 it's roughly how it works, but a lot of subtletieas 00:57:27 *subtleties 00:57:45 Actually I wouldn't know, I don't like to watch pornography. But at least now I know that it is not so simple to categorize. 00:58:17 Like, if you have a pornography store or archive you would need subcategory for those kind of things, I guess. 00:58:43 the problem with categorization is it really never works 00:58:50 At least that is a bit better hobby than ordinary watching pornography. 00:58:51 well 01:00:03 i mean it's easy to categorize based on certain elements, like for most people it would suffice that "in this movie girls has sex with donkey" 01:00:22 like 01:00:31 it's rather easy to categorize based on what people actually wanna wank to 01:01:05 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 01:01:11 oklopol: i am totally moving in 01:01:15 Only in #esoteric does pornography get treated academically. 01:01:15 because most people either have one of a list common elements they want to see in their porn, and it's easy to find porn categorized based on those 01:01:25 pikhq: erm plenty of other places too i would think :P 01:01:33 elliott: ONLY IN #ESOTERIC 01:01:36 elliott: :P 01:01:38 like mm i wanna see fat chicks mm i wanna see japs licking each other's faces 01:02:13 If you are going to make a report would you categorize it? Such as, subcategories might be: artistic, photograph, movie, professional, manga, man, woman, American, children, animal, hard, soft, joke, ..... 01:02:26 but once you get even slightly deeper, you can't really put your finger on the category, for instance there is obviously a continuous scale of whether the people actually enjoy touching each other 01:03:13 zzo38: are you sure you would include the children category :D 01:03:49 i guess that's supposed to be the "amateur" category, but it doesn't really work that way 01:03:51 elliott: Of course child pornography is illegal but you need to include such a category anyways even if it is hidden 01:04:17 * Vorpal looks at scrollback 01:04:19 elliott: There is a black market for it, I'm sure. 01:04:19 the hell!? 01:04:21 "[ ] Children (don't click this) (no really)" 01:04:27 Vorpal: we're talking about pornography, hi 01:04:36 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 01:04:37 pikhq: no shit :P 01:04:42 elliott, yes that was what I reacted to 01:04:46 oklopol: tell us more 01:04:47 zzo38: no, i wouldn't categorize like that at all 01:05:06 those overlap 01:05:11 oklopol: OK. How would you categorize? Do you need to make a report of how you categorize? 01:05:11 Not to mention that drawn depictions thereof are generally *legal*. Though it will suck if you get accused of pedophilia and caught with such. 01:05:15 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:05:23 oklopol, maybe there is some overlap though? 01:05:57 oklopol, I mean, for most useful categorisations 01:06:01 pikhq: not in the uk actually 01:06:06 as of recently... now i look suspicious for knowing this 01:06:08 I have not meant to imply it is a category that you select exactly one category. 01:06:10 not legal, that is 01:06:18 zzo38: i would analyze individual movies 01:06:35 if i had to write a report 01:07:11 oklopol: Aren't you doing this for the purpose of writing a report, though? 01:07:19 not really 01:07:23 i just thought you were interesting 01:07:27 *interested 01:07:48 Of course I don't know because I don't like to watch pornography. I am only making suggestion. 01:07:56 Probably I am entirely wrong. 01:08:26 zzo38: oh well yeah i would definitely agree with having those as terms for certain types of porn 01:08:28 elliott: Yeah, but the UK probably still has laws against women showing ankle, I'm sure. 01:08:29 :P 01:08:47 but for instance "hardcore" means nothing as an on/off scale 01:09:10 can be anything between "actual sex!" and max hardcore (actor) 01:09:17 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 01:09:59 pikhq: it's better than the USA's laws against women implying they might show ankle 01:10:01 oklopol: Then maybe you need to add a category titled "actual_sex"? 01:10:04 pikhq, I believe it isn't legal in Sweden either. IIRC there was some court case some years ago that suggested that the law was to be interpreted as it not being legal. Though textual stories of the same would probably be. 01:10:24 zzo38: i'm not very good at putting things like reactions of people into words, so i doubt i could ever actually write any sort of report on anything. 01:10:31 well, i doubt anyone can do that 01:10:46 Vorpal: I seem to recall it being precedent that the 1st amendment bars bans on child pornography without actual children involved in the creation thereof. 01:10:53 At least, in the US. 01:11:06 pikhq, yeah the 1st amendment is only relevant for US 01:11:09 oklopol: I thought you previously said at first that you were going to write a report, and you need it published?? 01:11:16 Vorpal: ... For now. 01:11:17 :P 01:11:22 pikhq, what do you mean 01:11:22 I'm pretty sure the 1st amendment doesn't ban that 01:11:27 doesn't really matter what they say, because cp and necro fans can soon just make their own animations. 01:11:39 Vorpal: Joking suggestion that the US will conquer everything. That's all. 01:11:41 Vorpal: We're going to give you democracy. 01:11:46 Can you just publish it by yourself? Or publish it in a pornography store? 01:11:48 Hardcore-style. 01:12:01 " oklopol: I thought you previously said at first that you were going to write a report, and you need it published??" <<< are we talking about this because you took that seriously 01:12:01 pikhq, I'm just waiting for China to invade you ;P 01:12:02 ? 01:12:14 Vorpal: I was about to make that joke, except funnier 01:12:17 oklopol: yes. 01:12:21 Vorpal: Oh, they're not going to invade. 01:12:23 coppro, gee thanks :P 01:12:41 Vorpal: They'll just purchase. 01:12:43 So much cleaner. 01:12:44 pikhq, oh true. They can probably buy you for a tenth of the market value 01:13:08 i have watched tons of porn simply out of pure interest (not saying i haven't also watched tons of it because of penis), that's all i meant. 01:13:09 (or as the market value would have been if you hadn't managed the economy so badly) 01:13:13 Arguably, they've been working on the down payment. 01:13:16 oklopol: OK, if you cannot write a report, then don't. But you seem to know enough about these things to write a very small report. 01:13:22 sure 01:13:39 (China is the largest holder of federal debt ATM) 01:13:42 pikhq, only after it all went bad 01:13:53 (if you meant what I thought you meant) 01:14:09 oklopol: lol speaking of max hardcore who you mentioned: "Based on Max Extreme 4, the city of Los Angeles in 1998 charged him with child pornography and distribution of obscenity. The fact that the actress was over the age of 18 was not disputed; they brought charges based solely on the fact that the actress was portraying a character who was underage." 01:14:12 i usually aim for a certain level of professionalism in everything i do 01:14:32 he has a lot of movies like that 01:14:49 but the amount obscenity is incredible for an american actor 01:14:52 *of 01:15:55 americans tend to do even rather hardcore stuff with a hollywood style feel of unrealness. 01:16:10 unlike japs who are just insane 01:17:26 yes 01:17:28 dunno if i've seen that movie, i've been out of the game for quite a while 01:17:33 oh 1998 01:17:37 then probably 01:17:38 And Germans, who seem to have a fondness for feces. 01:18:00 there's also that brazilian group, best known for 2g1c 01:18:33 Fucking crazy bastards. 01:18:35 :D 01:18:43 oklopol: have you watched SWAP.AVI? 01:18:47 they have a very unique way of doing things 01:18:55 oklopol: y/n 01:18:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:19:01 elliott: dunno, but usually i've seen the original movies years before these clips are made 01:19:03 *SWAP.avi 01:19:05 oklopol: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/horrible-saga-swapavi.php 01:19:10 oklopol: it was requested by the something awful forums 01:19:19 oklopol: to be the most ridiculous and inexplicable scat film possible 01:19:23 oklopol: and they actually made it according to the requirements 01:19:26 oh the jap one? 01:19:26 and it is ... yeah 01:19:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:19:30 with the silver suits 01:19:30 not that i know of 01:19:31 brazil 01:19:32 no 01:19:34 oklopol: read http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/horrible-saga-swapavi.php 01:19:35 it's hilarious 01:19:38 will 01:19:39 pics are barfy though 01:19:40 you know... 01:19:45 Sexual Content: Imagine if the Holocaust was a 63 minute long video about pooping. Now imagine your mother drowning in a bathtub full of diarrhea. This is the sexual content of SWAP.avi. 01:19:46 I should just never unignore elliott 01:19:52 this channel is that much nicer without him 01:20:29 coppro, only issue is missing out of more than half of the convos 01:20:29 well there are tons of 63 minute movies about pooping 01:20:34 he is the most active speaker in here 01:20:36 (still I think) 01:20:56 oklopol: no, no, keep watching 01:21:31 night → 01:21:39 Vorpal: i'm just waiting for you to have to do enough work that you leave and i will be able to completely dominate, making me in control of who ignores and gets ignores entirely based on channel flow. 01:22:28 coppro: under the circumstances, i am starting to agree 01:23:41 WTF? 01:25:37 oerjan: hey oklopol is the one who started the scat talk 01:26:05 pikhq: ?FTW 01:26:17 * Sgeo decides he will ignore elliott's advice and re-investigate Ur/Web 01:26:22 Oh dear god. 01:27:03 pikhq: who was that at? 01:27:05 Set your user mode +D if you want to ignore someone, next time. 01:27:19 coppro: 01:27:22 oerjan: 01:27:25 zzo38: why 01:27:30 I mean, mode +giDRQ 01:27:32 * elliott wonders wtf pikhq is doing 01:27:41 elliott: WTFing at coppro and oerjan. 01:27:45 pikhq: you and your funny blank lines 01:27:50 Next time you want to ignore someone, do like that instead. 01:27:51 pikhq: why 01:27:59 looks pretty run-of-the-mill 01:28:00 based on pics 01:28:03 lol zzo38 01:28:06 18:19 I should just never unignore elliott 01:28:10 18:19 this channel is that much nicer without him 01:28:13 18:22 coppro: under the circumstances, i am starting to agree 01:28:29 i think oerjan is either complaining about my joke wrt controlling the channel flow. or the scat. 01:28:31 i should ignore myself, it'd be fun 01:28:33 never be able to correct typos 01:28:45 pikhq: because while sometimes he provides me with new things to look at, usually what he does is "your worldview disagrees with mine you suck" 01:28:48 and the only reason i started talking about this is that zzo38 insisted 01:28:50 :D 01:28:50 coppro is just always an idiot, but apparently not idiotic enough to not ignore me 01:28:53 :3 01:28:58 oklopol: let's ban zzo38! 01:29:04 solve the problem at the root 01:29:06 that evil troll 01:29:09 coppro: Your worldview disagrees with mine you suck. 01:29:16 Verily 01:29:18 why not just ban everyone, that should be the end of all problems in this channel 01:29:19 oklopol: Because I insisted? ??? 01:29:24 :D 01:29:25 olsner: :) 01:29:43 olsner: Don't ban anyone just set your user mode to +giDRQ -w 01:29:44 olsner: how dare you suggest that 01:29:46 let's ban olsner 01:29:48 and also everyone who isn't olsner 01:29:51 that's a better solution 01:30:15 elliott, how about joining ##elliott 01:30:16 pikhq: that must have looked funny to elliott 01:30:20 pikhq: hey wait that _was_ a blank line, i thought you were doing something japanese i couldn't see 01:30:22 And leaving #esoeric 01:30:25 " oklopol: In what areas have you done exhaustive research?" " What is the difference?" so i figured i'll take an example that makes you say "okay yeah i don't wanna know". 01:30:25 Setting the user mode like this is the best way to ignoring someone, instead. 01:30:26 "##"elliott? 01:30:27 :P 01:30:33 I think I'm an official representative for myself. 01:30:35 I mean probably. 01:30:40 I am also considering /ignoring zzo38 01:30:40 So the extra # is ... not really needed ... 01:30:46 but you just kept asking for more 01:30:52 on account of him never actually saying anything useful 01:30:54 Sgeo: but, aww, you're hilarious when you're pissy 01:31:16 coppro: You do not need to ignore zzo38 or anyone else. If you want to ignore someone just set your user mode instead. 01:31:34 zzo38: SHUT UP ABOUT USER MODES 01:32:09 zzo38: unless they're programmed in enhanced cweb 01:32:13 is your irc server programmed in enhanced cweb? 01:32:18 can i download it with your web browser? 01:32:19 yeah, definitely /ignoring zzo38 01:32:22 will it run on your linux distribution? 01:32:29 will I be able to configure it? 01:32:33 does it have user modes? 01:32:51 elliott: I did not write it entirely by myself. But both of these program will run my Linux distribution, you will be able to configure it, and it does have user modes. 01:32:51 Wait, Gilad Bracha actually admires Racket's module system? 01:32:52 zzo38: how in the world is a user mode not containing information about a nick supposed to ignore them? 01:33:02 If it's not written in Enhanced CWEB, I don't care, zzo38. 01:33:05 oerjan: Try it and see how. 01:33:12 oerjan: because it ignores everyone? or something? 01:33:19 what olsner said 01:33:29 elliott: It is not written in Enhanced CWEB although maybe I can make change so that the next version is with Enhanced CWEB. 01:33:34 zzo38: so it's joke, ok. 01:33:37 *a joke 01:33:45 it's probably a joke 01:33:51 but zzo38 never actually says anything useful 01:33:55 (no i didn't try) 01:33:57 yes, the most hilarious joke 01:34:10 oerjan: so why do you want to ignore me, i kinda want to optimise for annoying people? 01:34:27 +Dg will make it so you pretty much can't receive messages 01:35:23 the rest aren't really necessary 01:36:06 i think oerjan has me on ignore 01:36:08 i feel kinda special 01:36:09 elliott: that scat thing 01:36:11 usually he just bans people instead :D 01:36:12 oh 01:36:17 oerjan: oklopol was the one talking about it :P 01:36:26 YEAH JUST MAKE ECUSES 01:36:30 *EXCUSES 01:36:30 coppro, define "useful" 01:37:01 You don't have me on ignore. Is what I say ever actually more useful than what zzo38 says? 01:37:05 Sgeo: yes 01:37:09 i was talking about it because i was asked, and i don't think i mentioned anything that explicit 01:37:13 Sgeo: that's an exceedingly good point 01:37:16 i think i might ignore the both of you 01:37:16 Sgeo: because unlike you, talking to zzo38 is like talking to a brick wall 01:37:31 he never backs his claims up; he just rambles on about dumb things 01:37:36 you seem to have some modicum of curiosity 01:37:38 With some of the bricks sideways and upsidedown. 01:37:44 what 01:37:55 Thank you, I guess 01:37:56 he just seems to get dumb ideas in his head and defend them to the death 01:38:00 and by "to the death" 01:38:08 I mean "by repeating them over and over with no arguments" 01:38:18 what is it about people losing their temper over zzo38 lately 01:38:28 oerjan: he didn't _use_ to spend every minute talking about enhanced cweb 01:38:39 coppro, it's not that he gets dumb ideas... just ideas that are of interest to him and him alone, as far as I've seen. 01:38:40 hm possibly 01:38:41 and butting into random, completely unrelated comments to talk about how everything you do should be in enhanced cweb. 01:39:00 and, also, never actually really responds to any questioning or rebuttals of anything he says. 01:39:13 tbh the "quantum free will" crap from a few days ago is what started annoying me, i didn't really care before that 01:39:24 I try to respond, at least. But maybe I do not do such good response. 01:39:27 Sgeo: there was one a few days ago 01:39:31 I'm too lazy to dig it out 01:39:41 oh right the metaquantumwhodunnawutzit 01:39:44 elliott, ooh, sounds like a discussion I'd be interested in 01:39:58 zzo38 annoyed me once for a few seconds 01:40:06 that was long ago tho 01:40:11 Sgeo: apparently you can understand quantum free will by inverting a wikipedia article on itself to create a causality loop and then writing down the entanglement equation 01:40:13 Sgeo: Then read the log file you can read everything on this channel in the past days and weeks and months and years by anyone in this channel regardless of who wrote it. 01:40:15 Sgeo: but not assuming the other part is real or even exists. 01:40:20 Sgeo: This is almost a direct quote by the way. 01:40:32 Sgeo: also, life creates the universe, but the universe creates life, and you can't have only one. 01:40:40 Sgeo: also rocks have life but not very much life so they don't create the universe much. 01:40:43 elliott: I mean not inverting the article itself, but based on the double inversion of the things which the article discusses!! 01:40:54 (The article itself is not invert) 01:40:56 The double inversion? So ... a no operation? 01:41:11 * Sgeo contrapositives zzo38 twice 01:41:17 elliott: No, I mean to have both the invert and double invert together. 01:41:28 Ah. Because contradictions prove things! 01:41:28 Like, combined in one piece. 01:41:32 zzo38, instead of inverting the ideas, try just describing them? 01:41:42 As inverted, I mean 01:41:44 Sgeo: oh god we spent a whole day doing this, why did you go and say that 01:41:47 Sgeo: I try to describe them? 01:41:58 Sgeo: his explanation is that it's not life which creates the universe, it's both and neither. 01:42:12 " elliott: I mean not inverting the article itself, but based on the double inversion of the things which the article discusses!!" <<< okay clearly elliott had misunderstood you completely 01:42:13 Sgeo: based on an article by some random quack written about on wikipedia who says that life is necessary for the universe or some crap. 01:42:18 elliott: Ah, now you can understand a bit better. 01:42:23 zzo38: not at all. 01:42:28 zzo38, instead of describing ideas in terms of Wikipedia articles, describe them on their own terms, then optionally relate it to the article 01:42:30 oklopol: well it's kind of hard to interpret nonsense 01:42:34 `quote cosmology 01:42:38 elliott, Final Anthromorphic Principle? 01:42:47 * Sgeo wants to slap whoever came up with that 01:42:48 Sgeo: no, not that, and it's "anthropomorphic". 01:42:51 Sgeo: and that was Penrose. 01:42:51 No output. 01:42:56 hmm i didn't add it to qdb 01:43:06 oklopol: can it run qsort yet 01:43:26 Then add it (assuming HackEgo is not just broken) 01:43:26 well i've been busy ircing and thinking about whether i should read for that exam of mine 01:43:31 study 01:43:40 oklopol: Perhaps you should do the exam. 01:43:50 *study for 01:43:59 * Sgeo admires zzo38 not getting upset by the insults being hurled at him 01:44:13 XIYO 01:44:18 X in Y out, Y not mentioning X 01:44:31 i know what i should do, that doesn't necessarily mean i'll do it 01:44:32 elliott, unsafeCoerce? 01:44:43 Sgeo: no, zzo38. 01:45:03 is that a pure function 01:45:21 So, zzo38 breaks the type system. Awesome. 01:45:28 no. 01:45:29 Y is fixed. 01:45:32 f _ = 3 01:45:35 that is basically zzo38. 01:45:38 :D 01:46:00 funniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 01:46:20 lol Y is fixed 01:46:23 hahahahahahahahaha ahem 01:46:24 anyway 01:46:25 oklopol 01:46:28 does qsort run yet 01:46:36 well you know 01:46:38 does and does not 01:46:42 what 01:46:47 mostly does not 01:47:29 still cluein around? 01:47:35 yes 01:47:36 sorta 01:47:38 oklopol: well are you fixing it 01:47:50 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5451998242.txt 01:47:51 no 01:47:53 can you 01:47:58 look at the output of compilation 01:48:20 i mean it compiles, but as i said, runtime error, i dunno what to dooooo 01:48:31 oklopol: um yes, but you understand that i've been asking for your latest version 01:48:34 oklopol: because mine hangs on that 01:48:37 oklopol: so...gimme the py files 01:49:02 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if Ioke is a bit like the only thing I like about Racket 01:50:00 i really need to fix shutup. 01:50:09 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1815468777.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5342334176.txt 01:50:16 at your own safetylessness. 01:50:35 * Sgeo is more type-system-breaky than zzo38. Sometimes I'll say stuff out of the blue that has no connection to anything whatsoever, sometimes I'll say something semi-relevant, and sometimes I'll ask relevant questions 01:50:38 the way i debug is less than optimal :D 01:50:49 elliott, what makes you think it's broken? 01:50:56 Sgeo: what 01:51:02 shutup 01:51:11 Sgeo: also, orange juice is nice. *slurp* 01:51:12 Sgeo: well when i nicked to sgeo and said Factor it didn't yell at me. 01:51:18 Factor 01:51:20 Sgeo: Sometimes anyone might do, isn't it? 01:51:20 oerjan: especially when it's fecal matter! 01:51:23 oklopol: what's "cool" 01:51:23 It's yelling at me 01:51:33 oklopol: oh jesus. 01:51:34 elliott: debugging 01:51:35 xD 01:51:42 see 01:51:43 oklopol: you know what, remove all the debugging code and i'll make sure qsort works 01:51:46 glue is very general 01:51:50 Gregor's apples to oranges comparision convinced me to like oranges 01:51:53 so 01:52:03 if i want to debug a specific moment of compilation 01:52:12 things are messy 01:52:22 elliott: erm, why? 01:52:27 they are just print statements 01:52:31 oklopol: because i have to merge it into _my_ version 01:52:44 oklopol: which means considering all your changes and making sure they work without conditionals 01:52:54 oklopol: pain enough to do that when I have all this cool stuff too :P 01:53:00 of course they work without them, i only change glue 01:53:18 oklopol: fine 01:53:19 cool stuff is just print statements, i use a global so i can trigger stuff in stuff.py as well. 01:54:12 + if isinstance(l,list) and len(l)==0:return 1 01:54:12 + return 0 01:54:15 oklopol: 01:54:23 return int(isinstance(l,list) and len(l)==0) 01:54:43 what a useful correction 01:54:47 yep! 01:54:51 thank you 01:55:15 oklopol: so is demolishing a failed policy? 01:55:33 not really, it still makes ski very fast 01:55:49 oklopol: but you haven't made it good yet. right. :p 01:56:27 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:56:43 it gives a 6x improvement in one test case, so given that we currently have 2 test cases, i wouldn't exactly call it a failure 01:56:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:57:17 it might be qs that's the odder one 01:57:23 (i doubt it) 01:57:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:57:38 oklopol: what do you use random for 01:57:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: !). 01:57:53 nothing atm 01:58:02 i added it to test random searching for fun 01:58:25 that... didn't go well 01:58:29 :D 01:59:37 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 02:00:36 i hate this damn router 02:00:42 oklopol: "death" to crash the program 02:00:43 brilliant 02:00:45 brilliant yet horrible 02:01:21 Indeed. 02:01:36 oklopol: what why did you punctuate what 02:01:37 what 02:01:40 what and capital 02:01:40 what 02:01:41 what 02:01:42 where is oklopol 02:01:44 what did you 02:01:46 where 02:01:48 what 02:01:51 what 02:01:56 SPAM! 02:01:57 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 02:02:04 -!- oerjan has left (?). 02:02:05 OKLOPOL JUST CAPITALISED AND PUNCTUATED A FUCKING SENTENCE 02:02:07 What do you mean? 02:02:07 ...xD 02:02:12 holy shit stop it 02:02:19 Stop what exactly? 02:02:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:02:22 i'm vomiting 02:02:25 I'M VOMITING!!! 02:02:34 WHERE DID YOU PUT OKLOPOL 02:02:45 Can we just get back to the matter at hand, please. 02:03:01 -!- oklopol has changed nick to Oklopol. 02:03:02 + if demolishing_done==True and first_round:break 02:03:05 the real oklopol wrote this code 02:03:08 he knows that you have to check booleans 02:03:11 to see whether they're True 02:03:13 before conditioning on them 02:03:27 Okay. What does that have to do with anything? 02:03:28 * Sgeo decides to learn Io 02:03:34 now that was amusing, i wanted to close the chanserv window and closed #esoteric instead 02:03:36 Oklopol: You're not the real oklopol. 02:03:39 Sgeo: it's a bad language 02:03:49 elliott, howso? 02:03:51 Sgeo: said as someone who developed with it for months. 02:03:57 Sgeo: and was part of the |||~~community~~||| 02:04:01 Sgeo: for one, it has basically no stdlib. 02:04:05 simple string and array functions are completely missing. 02:04:07 I'LL TAKE THAT AS A SIGN NOT TO BAN ELLIOTT YET 02:04:09 elliott: I have no comment. 02:04:13 also, there is basically no documentation 02:04:14 Oklopol: :( 02:04:19 oerjan: what 02:04:44 elliott: PAY ATTENTION. OR ELSE I'LL BAN YOU ANYWAY. 02:05:09 elliott, so the concept is good, the execution is crap? 02:05:17 Oklopol: i love how you called a variable demolishing, which stops you executing the demolishing function 02:05:22 Oerjan accidentally exited #esoteric, when he tried to close the message from ChanServ when he opped himself. This meant he could not ban you. 02:05:27 Oh my god. 02:05:31 Sgeo: both are pretty crap. the "pass everything as a function" thing doesn't work well. 02:05:46 foo(hello + world) <-- this could print "hello + world" to the screen even if hello=1 and world=2 02:05:54 completely breaking basically... every invariant i can think of in programming 02:06:03 elliott: see Oklopol gets it. whether or not he's oklopol. 02:06:22 elliott, isn't that what documentation is for? 02:06:34 Sgeo: let's just have no rules. 02:06:40 an arbitrary byte prefix has control over the rest of the program. 02:06:47 string delimiters? why, functions can choose whichever ones they want. 02:06:52 how can i use this without going insane? 02:06:55 Isn't that what documentation is for? 02:08:28 elliott: i expect tomorrow we'll see in the news about how finland is the center of a new global pandemic of correct spelling, punctuation, and horrible fatal hemorrhaging. 02:08:32 def fun(*args): 02:08:33 return call_clue(clue,args,10) 02:08:37 Oklopol: you changed this to 1000, why? :P 02:08:39 oerjan: :D 02:09:03 elliott: I changed it to 1000 in case quicksort actually happened to need more than 10 levels of function calls. 02:09:40 Oklopol: oh my god you sound so...boring and sane like this 02:09:43 I admit that was a much larger number than should be expected as an upper limit. 02:09:47 Oklopol: so tell me, how do you structure your python code, usually 02:10:21 Can you be more specific? "I think." 02:10:41 Oklopol: like, what is your general coding formatting style! 02:11:07 The one you see in the .py files i've given you. 02:11:47 Oklopol: ok i hate you stop it 02:11:52 "i've" 02:11:52 ha 02:11:55 I have caught you 02:11:56 you lose 02:11:58 go back to normal 02:11:59 :( 02:12:26 Naming varies, because I don't particularly care about names, amount of whitespace varies, but is generally little. I tend to write rather long segments of code for doing simple things, even if I know a shorter way. 02:12:39 ...anyway, creepyklopol, 02:12:40 clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (cadar) 02:12:41 Yeah, I had a typo. 02:12:42 what do 02:12:48 and also, are you going to be like this forever 02:12:48 Congrats for noticing. 02:13:12 no seriously what do 02:13:19 I don't know what you are referring to. Is that from running quicksort? 02:13:22 elliott: only until the hemorrhages start 02:13:25 Oklopol: no from running ski 02:13:44 Oh. Heh, I guess I've broken something then. 02:13:47 hm can demolishing_done be a non-boolean :D 02:13:54 just looking at the differences between our codes 02:14:00 Oklopol: yeah well... get on fixing that, freak of nature 02:14:30 Oklopol: note this is with my non-conditional thing 02:14:35 so maybe the branch-inferrer is taking too long 02:14:40 freaks of culture are even creepier 02:14:51 Oklopol: it does the same on foo.clue 02:14:55 depth limit exceeded for is negative 02:14:56 ? 02:14:59 *negative? 02:15:02 Well, given that I've never had a run-time error in a Clue program, and suddenly both programs in existence are failing with the same error... 02:15:18 :DDD 02:15:25 excuse me, btw, but foo.clue breaks too :D 02:15:28 which is just my set of stuff 02:15:30 Ski works for me. 02:15:49 At least that one example program does. 02:16:05 Somehow I doubt you made another testcase. 02:16:44 Oklopol: huh what... 02:16:51 Oklopol: ok so it's the removal of conditionals that break it 02:17:04 Oklopol: can we just unify on the non-conditional version to make this a whole lot easier for both of us? :P 02:17:06 it's obviously superior 02:18:06 I don't particularly want to since things work very slowly on my machine without that additional complication for the compiler. 02:19:51 Oklopol: ehh it's actually not slow at all 02:20:01 Oklopol: it's like, 3/4ths as fast 02:20:04 also way purer :p 02:20:31 Well, you can give me your files once you get SKI to compile. 02:20:59 And quicksort, since I would very much like to see the program that was inferred for it. 02:21:20 Oklopol: well uh 02:21:25 Oklopol: i will try and figure out the bug 02:21:35 Oklopol: but only if you talk okloy again 02:22:01 Oklopol: found it. 02:22:05 I have to eat something now. 02:22:08 Oklopol: in glue(), you pass depth_lim to glue_ as True 02:22:08 Okay, nice. 02:22:11 Oklopol: which is the same as 1 as an int 02:22:15 Oklopol: what's it meant to be, 5? 02:22:22 and is orig_objs meant to be True? 02:22:25 if you can just correct that call 02:22:35 I pass it as 5. 02:22:44 Ah. 02:23:00 Oklopol: you do not pass it as 5 :) 02:23:09 Hmm. 02:23:12 Oklopol: but i'm not sure which way it should be rearranged, so if you could correct it... :P 02:23:39 To me it looks like I pass it as 5. 02:24:30 Oklopol: ok let's count 02:24:32 True,5,objects) 02:24:38 and in the signature 02:24:38 depth_lim,orig_objs=None,objectlookup=None): 02:24:46 depth_lim=True, orig_objs=5, objectlookup=objects. 02:25:01 Yes, one argument is not passed from glue. 02:25:11 The last one. 02:25:23 oh. 02:25:24 darn. 02:25:53 Oklopol: i increased the depth limit and it just overflows python's stack. 02:26:00 Oklopol: i conclude you have an infinite loop somewhere. 02:26:18 Oklopol: ok pop quiz for you 02:26:20 glue is the clue to glue clue together 02:26:23 Oklopol: where in glue_ do you ever exit? 02:26:31 ah, there is one return 02:26:52 Ur/Web takes ideas from functional reactive programming? 02:27:11 elliott: The infinite loop must be in the generated code. 02:27:16 Oklopol: right 02:27:23 Sgeo: it's a research language with strong links to type theory that you have mistaken as some kind of industry tool. 02:27:36 Sgeo: as i have said on numerous occasions, if you don't understand this, you will get nothing out of it. 02:27:53 it's the ur-idea 02:28:42 but it's Web, it _must_ be industrial! 02:29:26 he should have made it Ur/DependentlyTypedSpreadsheets or something to avoid the peanut gallery 02:34:47 Oklopol: so um er fixed the bug yet? :D 02:35:24 I don't even know if there's a bug. 02:36:42 Oklopol: well. i assume so. 02:36:49 Oklopol: since it can't even work out "is negative?". 02:36:57 is negative? ~ {. -1 -> 1 02:36:57 . -2 -> 1 } 02:36:57 is negative? ~ {. 0 -> 0 } 02:36:59 is negative? ~ {. 1 -> 0 02:37:01 . 2 -> 0 } 02:37:03 is negative? ~ compare; #0; #1 02:37:07 Oklopol: which, you know, should not overflow python's stack. 02:37:09 because of depth limit 02:37:37 It can't? Weird, since SKI and pivot work normally. 02:37:59 nnnno ski doesn't 02:38:11 clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (cadar) 02:38:15 if i increase the depth limit the stack just overflows. 02:38:28 the only differences between our two versions is that mine hasn't got <> stuff, as i said 02:38:45 Oklopol: unless 02:38:47 - if demolishing_done and first_round:break 02:38:47 + if demolishing_done==True and first_round:break 02:38:51 demolishing_done can't be a non-bool, can it? 02:39:44 It should always be a boolean. 02:40:52 And I'm sure our versions are essentially identical, but I just plain cannot fix a bug my code does not have. If I've changed something that doesn't play well with your changes, sorry, but that's life. 02:41:20 Oklopol: well considering our respective changes shouldn't even interact with glue ... :/ 02:41:35 Indeed they shouldn't. 02:41:39 http://sprunge.us/HQiJ is the whole differences... - is mine, + is yours... i'm trying to figure out wtf is up 02:41:55 are you suuuure ski works for you? :/ 02:44:03 Oklopol: heh... if i remove most of the ski functions it finally gets a non-limit errors 02:44:05 *error 02:44:08 (complaining about all the missing things) 02:44:49 Oklopol: ...okay so, as little as i believe this myself 02:44:53 I just compiled SKI. 02:44:55 Oklopol: the error was a missing "import clue" in stuff.py. 02:45:00 I am not kidding. 02:45:05 What. 02:45:07 I guess apply_to_visible failed...somehow... 02:45:11 Ah. 02:45:14 Oklopol: do you have any big "catch every error" things? 02:45:16 that just ignore it? 02:45:20 because that probably caused it if so 02:45:21 but yeah, what :D 02:45:24 So I suppose there was an error, which i catch somewhere. 02:45:31 Sounds like something oklopol would do. 02:45:38 yeah, but Oklopol would never do that 02:46:11 Oklopol: so, um, i will try qsort now, can you link me to the current ver? 02:46:23 It is interesting that I haven't run into that problem when debugging that. 02:46:32 Sounds like something that would be a constant annoyance. 02:46:45 It has not changed, but sure. 02:47:05 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5399236149.txt 02:47:06 elliott, As far as I can tell, what Ioke calls "macros" are Io-like functions 02:47:09 Oklopol: i would have thought your code in general would be a constant annoyance when debugging :) 02:47:14 that is, incidentally, not a complaint at all. 02:47:17 Pivot should actually work, quicksort doesn't. 02:47:20 or an insult or w/e 02:47:22 Is that less bad than what Io does, since it means most functions don't do that sort of shenanigans? 02:47:27 Oklopol: also it has changed i don't have qsort 02:47:30 I don't find my code particularly hard to debug. 02:48:44 Oklopol: qsort compiled, at least 02:48:50 all in less than two seconds, no less 02:49:16 but er well 02:49:19 add(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) @(pivot right(car(#0) #0))) 02:49:22 is the non-null case for qsort 02:49:29 @ is recursion of course 02:49:40 What 02:49:44 now i'm not _certain_ but does qsort result in an integer? 02:49:46 That looks pretty much right... 02:49:48 Hmm. 02:49:51 oh 02:49:53 add is also append :D 02:50:05 Oklopol: yes, it works fine here. also, that <2s compilation is without <> marks. 02:50:12 i'm going to fix my pretty-AST-printer now. 02:50:20 Ah. 02:50:25 I see what the problem is. 02:50:56 Add is just the python (+) function, yes. That is not something that should be true. 02:50:57 Oklopol: oh? 02:51:06 also, i'm trying qsort with demolishing now 02:51:07 just for the fun of it 02:51:38 Alright. 02:51:48 Oklopol: can you tell me why you are talking like this :x 02:52:22 i just 02:52:23 want a reason 02:53:38 Oklopol: :( 02:55:02 I don't have a reason, sorry. 02:55:18 "Felt like it." 02:55:35 Oklopol: holy shit holy shit qs compiled 02:55:36 with destructing 02:55:41 273.050776958 02:55:43 :D 02:56:10 now i'm gonna try and figure out how to fix my printer 02:56:11 Heh. 02:56:26 Oklopol: are you going to stop talking like that ever :( 02:57:27 It is interesting that quicksort compiles, I don't see how it can with that bag. 02:58:12 How can the element used as pivot ever get to the output? 02:58:41 Oklopol: that's a mighty good point. 02:58:57 ---- quicksort 02:58:57 [#0] 02:58:57 | [] => #0 02:58:59 | <<<{'#0': '#0'}>>><<<{'#1': '@(pivot left(car(#0) #0))', '#0': '#0'}>>>_ => add(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) @(pivot right(car(#0) #0))) 02:59:01 ignore between <<< and >>> 02:59:06 (note how mine avoids empty automatically :D) 02:59:19 Oklopol: that's really weird 02:59:20 huh 02:59:45 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:05 -!- luatre has joined. 03:00:06 let's try it in luatre :) 03:00:10 :: quicksort([]) 03:00:18 uh. 03:00:23 ::. hello 03:00:24 KeyError: 'hello' :( 03:00:26 :: poop 03:00:29 what 03:00:32 :: [] 03:00:37 :D 03:01:18 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:01:25 -!- luatre has joined. 03:01:31 :: empty([]) 03:01:34 wtf. 03:01:41 ... x 03:01:42 ValueError: substring not found :( 03:01:47 ohhh 03:01:49 Eh, turns out it is smarter than me. It actually pivots the whole list by the first element, that that the pivot element itself goes on the right side. 03:01:57 This way, it doesn't have to add it back. 03:01:58 :. empty([]) 03:01:58 1 03:01:59 Oklopol: heh :D 03:02:04 ::. quicksort 03:02:04 quicksort: [#0] | [] => #0 | _ => add(#1 @(pivot left(car(#0) #0))) 03:02:14 :: quicksort([4 3 2 1]) 03:02:19 :. quicksort([4 3 2 1]) 03:02:20 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded :( 03:02:30 Oklopol: your quicksort, it is, mighty "efficient" 03:02:33 :. quicksort([1]) 03:02:34 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded :( 03:02:39 ...:DDDDDddd 03:02:46 :. quicksort([]) 03:02:46 [] 03:02:55 :. pivot left(1 []) 03:02:55 [] 03:02:56 :. pivot left(1 [1]) 03:02:56 [] 03:03:01 :. pivot right(1 [1]) 03:03:01 [1] 03:03:04 Well, the one given by luatre doesn't even call pivot right. 03:03:11 Oklopol: no no that's a bug in the printer 03:03:18 i fixed that in my local copy 03:03:20 ignore its output 03:03:23 :. add(pivot left(1 [1]) pivot right(1 [1])) 03:03:23 [1] 03:03:28 :. quicksort([1]) 03:03:29 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded :( 03:03:31 what. 03:03:42 back to fixing my printer and avoiding thinking about that 03:04:20 Hmm. 03:04:22 Oklopol: so how fast does ski compile for you 03:04:32 It occurs to me that that quicksort would be an infinite loop in any language. 03:04:39 i think i'm going to turn destructing on (nice avoidance of the common terminology there btw) to make testing this easier :D 03:04:46 Oklopol: oh, indeed. :D 03:04:54 Oklopol: insufficient hinting! 03:04:59 Oklopol: often a problem with the branchless form 03:05:03 Because it can never actually "use" a piece of the input. 03:05:19 Oklopol: i'm starting to suspect the whole oklopol thing is one gigantic act 03:05:21 I need to make it also return singletons directly. 03:05:23 and you're actually a horribly 03:05:24 horribly 03:05:25 normal 03:05:26 boring person 03:05:28 :( 03:05:32 why do you violate my life's constants 03:05:33 ais523: make him stop 03:05:36 Either that, or I'm fizzie. 03:05:43 ...what 03:05:44 is that true 03:05:59 are you fizz 03:06:00 e 03:06:01 ie 03:06:04 despite being in stockholm 03:06:06 I don't think I've been that much like him. 03:06:12 you've punctuated and capitalised 03:06:14 and that's basically enough 03:06:36 Anyway, let me get back to the code. 03:06:58 the qs code or clue.py 03:08:47 ---- depth of first 03:08:47 Condition: ['is list?', '#0'] 03:08:47 Base branch (0) 03:08:49 '#0' 03:08:51 Rec branch (1) 03:08:53 Subast(0,0):['car', '#1'] 03:08:55 Main ast: ['inc', '#2'] 03:08:57 w h a t 03:09:01 deep first ~ {. 1 -> 1 03:09:01 . 2 -> 2 } 03:09:03 deep first ~ {:. [[1, 2], 3] -> 1 03:09:05 : [1, 2] -> 1 03:09:07 :. [1, [2, 3]] -> 1 03:09:09 : 1 -> 1 } 03:09:11 deep first ~ is list?; cons; car; cdr 03:09:19 Oklopol: wtf is #1 there 03:10:03 First argument, I suppose, although that's #0. 03:10:10 Oklopol: well precisely... 03:10:15 Really I don't understand how the numbering works at all. 03:10:17 oh 03:10:21 depth of first has the constant #0 03:10:27 so right, yes, why haven't i handled that 03:10:40 ah! 03:11:06 yep 03:12:16 ---- depth of first 03:12:16 [is list?(#0)] 03:12:16 | 0 => 0 03:12:18 | 1 => inc(@(car(#0))) 03:12:20 :D 03:13:07 ---- quicksort 03:13:07 [#0] 03:13:07 | [] => #0 03:13:08 | _ => add(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) @(pivot right(car(#0) #0))) 03:13:10 Oklopol: that's definitely the quicksort code. 03:13:35 Oklopol: hey you know what clue should be able to do 03:13:41 Oklopol: MUTUTALLY RECURSIVE FUNCTIONS 03:15:39 Yes, it should be able to do those. In fact, didn't I mention adding support for that today? 03:15:44 I believe I did. 03:16:02 do you talk like this in real life 03:16:48 Oklopol: so, challenge: write even? in clue 03:16:50 handling positive and negative numbers 03:18:38 It seems that quicksort works fine now. 03:18:45 It was my bad really. 03:18:51 Oklopol: oh joy: [[clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (even?)]] 03:18:56 Oklopol: also, can i has the code? 03:18:57 -!- res_ has joined. 03:19:01 By which I meant my Clue program was wrong. 03:19:22 * elliott changes the depth limit to 10 and tests :D 03:19:31 Well, actually it turns out only lists of lenght 3 can be sorted. 03:19:31 to be fair it is a _very_ complex condition i want 03:19:35 Oklopol: what :D 03:19:40 Oklopol: insufficient testcases, man 03:19:52 Oklopol: Clue, the only language where not testing enough actually breaks your program. 03:20:49 Oklopol: i'm having a bit of trouble making a program with a complex conditional 03:21:08 Oklopol: specifically, even? is basically this: "if x<0 then (if x==-2 then 1 else 0) else even?(x-2)" 03:21:15 and i just can't see how to do that, even with multiple functions 03:21:46 oh wait 03:21:56 i can do it with compare to 0 03:22:01 specifically 03:22:45 "[compare(#0,0)] | -1 => 0 | 0 => 1 | 1 => @(dec(dec(#0)))" 03:22:45 You know what I realized? 03:22:48 what? 03:22:55 The program IS STILL CONCEPTUALLY WRONG. 03:22:58 :DDD 03:23:16 conceptual wrongness exists in program! 03:23:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:23:54 You know what gave it away? Adding a third test case. 03:23:59 :. [1, 2, 3] -> [1, 2, 3] 03:23:59 : [] -> [] 03:23:59 : [1, 2, 3] -> [1, 2, 3] } 03:24:01 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:24:16 Oklopol: :D 03:24:18 L O L L O L L O L L O L: 03:24:24 so i forgot to give positive even? #1 right 03:24:26 ---- positive even? 03:24:26 [compare(#0 compare(#0 #0))] 03:24:26 | -1 => 0 03:24:28 | 0 => compare(0 dec(0)) 03:24:30 | 1 => @(dec(dec(#0))) 03:24:32 Oklopol: compare(0 dec(0)) 03:24:33 I love this language. 03:24:36 greatest way of writing 1 ever??? 03:24:38 GREATEST WAY?? 03:24:57 Oklopol: here's what happens if i don't give it 0 either: 03:24:58 [compare(#0 compare(#0 #0))] 03:24:59 | -1 => compare(#0 #0) 03:24:59 | 0 => compare(#0 dec(#0)) 03:25:01 | 1 => @(dec(dec(#0))) 03:25:01 Wait what? 03:25:03 amazing 03:25:05 Oklopol: wait what what? 03:25:13 Oh. 03:25:26 Yeah nm, yes, that is fun. 03:25:27 0 defined as a number equaling its own predecessor? 03:25:39 olsner: 0 is the python number 0. 03:25:42 olsner: no 03:25:47 wtf i can't tab complete olsner 03:25:52 anyway 03:25:56 olsner: no, compare() is <=> 03:26:00 as in, -1 if <, 0 if =, 1 if > 03:26:09 compare(x, x-1) is always 1 03:26:14 compare(x, x) is always 0 03:26:18 so basically, Clue is a genius. 03:26:24 elliott: wait Oklopol is in stockholm? that clearly explains the change. 03:26:32 oerjan: no, fizzie is :P 03:26:36 oh 03:27:20 osnler is so hard to tab complete 03:27:51 no seriously, it just doesn't let me :D 03:27:54 why would I be hard to tab complete? 03:28:05 my client is buggy 03:28:05 evidently 03:28:09 olsner: PROBABLY YOU'RE IN STOCKHOLM OR SOMETHING 03:28:18 Oklopol: so here's a sane compilation of even?: 03:28:19 [is negative?(#0)] 03:28:19 | 1 => positive even?(negate(#0)) 03:28:20 that is an explanation for _everything_ 03:28:20 | 0 => positive even?(#0) 03:28:33 Oklopol: but say i were to withhold is negative? from this program 03:28:37 Oklopol: what does the genius of clue come up with? 03:28:43 [positive even?(#0)] 03:28:43 | 0 => positive even?(negate(#0)) 03:28:43 | _ => positive even?(#0) 03:28:47 :D 03:29:01 oerjan: probably not, but something could arbitrarily decide that my IP is in stockholm for whatever reason 03:29:38 olsner: No, oerjan attributed my weird behavior to my being in Stockholm earlier. 03:29:53 I'm not in Stockholm though. 03:29:55 Oklopol: as a member of the Clue Standardisation Board, can I humbly suggest that we both rename "empty" to "empty?". 03:29:59 *"empty?"? 03:30:01 it is only logical. 03:30:02 elliott: is empty? 03:30:16 Oklopol: are you sure, every predicate is getting "is" in front of it D 03:30:17 *:D 03:30:18 * oerjan somehow read that as the Clue Scandinavisation Board 03:30:24 "is this list empty?" 03:30:26 Oklopol: i mean sure but only if you actually make the change 03:30:55 elliott: I'm not making any changes before quicksort works. I don't know why. 03:30:56 Oklopol: isn't weird behaviour just normal behaviour when it comes to you? 03:31:06 olsner: I don't know. 03:31:08 Oklopol: well, done in mine :P 03:31:16 olsner: look at how he's fucking talking 03:31:19 it's unbearable :( 03:31:21 so... so wrong 03:31:33 elliott: Okay, I don't exactly mind if your versions differ. 03:31:48 Oklopol: i have a feeling you don't think much of elliottclue :) 03:31:51 Maybe I'll do the change at some point. 03:31:53 elliott: You should just relax, I think. 03:32:13 Oklopol: so uh, speaking of changes...constants in branchers? >_> 03:32:36 Vorpal: http://0au.de/~apo/mario.png 03:32:41 Vorpal: autoconverted, but still, :D 03:34:37 i'm sure you already have seen the enterprise [minecraft edition]? -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn2-d5a3r94 :> 03:34:49 yes, like five years ago >:) 03:35:00 Oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X32nuDEvw-4 03:36:58 :. [1 2 3] 03:36:58 [1 2 3] 03:37:52 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:38:10 -!- luatre has joined. 03:46:02 have you ever played brabens frontier elite? probably the best game ever.. travel our galaxy with a cute spaceship, trade, fight pirates..become elite! until now the only game you can land on planets without any loading screens! pretty nice physics..all that on one single floppy(!).. a masterpiece of work.. hope that there will be a sequel some day :/ 03:46:12 Phantom_Hoover is an Elite fan. 03:46:15 But everyone hates Frontier. 03:46:24 not true elliott 03:46:29 but anyway 03:46:29 Also, there _was_ a sequel. 03:46:36 Also, everyone hates Braben. :p 03:46:43 yea 03:47:06 hagb4rd: Anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_First_Encounters 03:47:09 Sequel to Frontier. 03:47:28 i wonder if there where all the pgogrammers are gone 03:47:35 Eh? 03:47:54 yea i know that one, but its about 15years old or sth 03:48:05 sry 03:48:10 -!- res_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 03:48:12 -if there 03:48:12 Oklopol: so I wrote a clue repl... it lets you specify filenames on cmd line, prints all the asts at startup, lets you evaluate stuff in LuatreLang, lets you load new files, and lets you reload everything 03:48:19 Yeah, well, Elite 4. :p 03:48:26 yes 03:48:33 that would be funn 03:48:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:48:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_4 03:48:39 Duke Nukem Elite. 03:48:42 hrhr 03:48:44 *Duke Elite Forever. 03:48:48 *Elite Nukem Forever. 03:48:54 wanted 03:50:10 -!- res0001 has joined. 03:50:11 how did he manage to fit all this stuff on one single floppy? 03:50:31 the old bastard should publish the code 03:50:39 Procedural generation. Also, give more credit to Ian Bell; I imagine most of the procedural generation code Ian Bell had at least some part in. 03:50:55 agree 03:50:58 respect 03:50:59 hagb4rd: I distinctly recall PH telling me that Braben litigated Bell into taking down the code to Elite. 03:51:11 So a Frontier source release might happen, mm, approximately never. 03:51:21 i will code 03:51:23 it 03:51:25 :> 03:51:34 hagb4rd: Why bother, Asteroids II is better. 03:51:46 is it? never played it 03:52:09 -!- res0001 has quit (Client Quit). 03:52:09 hagb4rd, I don't think it exists yet 03:53:02 sounds reasonable then *g 03:53:05 hagb4rd: It's a 2D Newtonian-physics-based shooter with full physics including gravity (with orbits!) and things like localised physics distortion (e.g. slow down speed of light in a bubble that enemy is approaching, circle around it quickly and fire bullets inside before they can get out). 03:53:21 Being "worked on" very, very slowly by me and PH, whereby most time spent working on it is thumb-twiddling. 03:53:31 I do want it to get finished, though. 03:53:43 where can i get your alpha? 03:53:50 /dev/null 03:53:55 46 seconds to compile quicksort helper, which hopefully was the hard part of quicksort 03:54:03 hm 03:54:06 But it's going to be a commercial game if it ever does get done, so, uh, pony up $(preorder price). :P 03:54:10 Let's hope for the best. 03:54:18 (The release will come with full source code, allowing redistribution of modifications.) 03:54:40 cmon.. let me have a look 03:54:45 Is that how Minecraft works? 03:54:46 (So modding is perfectly legal and permitted, as well as complete reworks, so long as you either don't distribute enough to reconstruct a large part of the entire game, or only distribute it to people you can reasonably verify own it.) 03:54:49 hagb4rd: There _is no code_ right now. 03:54:51 Releasing source to purchasers? 03:54:57 Sgeo: No, Minecraft is just closed source. 03:55:01 It's just that Java is very easy to disassemble. 03:55:05 Well, no less. 03:55:10 hagb4rd, there isn't even code for the programming language yet 03:55:15 You get something very close to the original code minus names (and the modders are working on that). 03:55:15 lol 03:55:22 hagb4rd: All that has been written is gravity.lisp, which does 2D Newtonian mechanics with orbits. 03:55:25 Even I have disassembled some Java code. 03:55:32 y 2d? 03:55:44 lisp 03:55:48 ok 03:55:49 hagb4rd: Because 3D Newtonian mechanics is considered rather unfun to fly in -- see Frontier ;-) 03:55:54 hagb4rd: The actual game won't be written in Lisp probably. 03:56:05 But it was what PH hacked up that in (it doesn't even have graphics, it just prints tables of numbers). 03:56:19 But it's a proof that Oklopol was wrong enough, or how PH interpreted Oklopol was wrong enough, and it can work:P 03:56:20 *work :P 03:56:21 elliott, what dialect of Lisp? 03:56:22 (orbits in 2D) 03:56:25 Sgeo: It was Common Lisp. 03:56:33 >>> funcs["quicksort"]([4, 2, 45, 2, 65, 45, 34, 34, 6 ,76]) 03:56:33 [2, 2, 4, 6, 34, 34, 45, 45, 65, 76] 03:56:37 What was Oklopol wrong about? 03:56:47 Sgeo: Um, Oklopol said that someone said that orbits don't form well in 2D or something. 03:56:54 must lurk into this procedural generetion stuff.. 03:57:03 Oklopol: see, with my luatre console, that's as simple as 03:57:10 Can I see proof of orbits forming? 03:57:14 Oklopol: quicksort([4 2 45 2 65 45 34 34 6 76]) 03:57:14 ! 03:57:24 Oklopol: proof, err, not really, ph isn't online and i don't have the code, but 03:57:31 then call ian and get started with elite4 03:57:32 elliott: How fun, now can I try this in your bot? 03:57:32 :> 03:57:36 Oklopol: basically the only problem was a drift over time, caused by setting dx too high 03:57:46 Please make it run url-given code. 03:57:55 Oklopol: and it would be low enough in a game 03:57:55 Aren't there plenty of orbit simulators? 03:57:57 Oklopol: ok, i will 03:57:58 elliott: So can I see? 03:58:00 Microsoft Encarta came with one 03:58:04 Oklopol: as i said, i don't have the current code 03:58:12 Sgeo: the point is getting orbits to form naturally with newtonian mechanics in 2d 03:58:32 Oklopol: I might make luatre just an interface to the repl, tbh, but I'll hack it up right now. 03:59:02 It would be nice to be able to give urls since Clue is sort of a verbose language. 03:59:12 nothin simpler then the newtonian mechanics 03:59:31 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt 03:59:33 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:59:47 -!- luatre has joined. 03:59:58 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt 03:59:59 ValueError: substring not found :( 04:00:09 oh wait 04:00:09 :D 04:00:10 nm 04:00:11 What's the point of quicksort append? 04:00:14 46 seconds to compile btw 04:00:17 that was trying to evaluate that as a luatre expr 04:00:20 Sgeo: It's a helper function. 04:00:34 It's the kind of appending quicksort does after recursing. 04:00:37 just no friction.. 04:00:54 "quicksort helper" on the other hand has no clear meaning whatsoever. 04:01:05 hagb4rd: What? 04:01:10 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:01:15 -!- luatre has joined. 04:01:23 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt 04:01:35 ...... http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt 04:01:39 hmm 04:01:40 OH 04:01:41 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:01:42 inertia, no friction thats all 04:02:02 its easier then jumpnrun.. i guess 04:02:04 -!- luatre has joined. 04:02:05 I don't see what friction has to do with anything. 04:02:06 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt 04:02:07 Downloading... 04:02:07 Compiling, just a minute... 04:02:07 Exception: Can't compile pivot(), inc twice(), caaar pivot helper(), make singleton(), car pivot helper(), quicksort helper(), pivot condition 2(), caaar with consed(), cons to caaar(), quicksort(), greater than?(), quicksort append(), pivot left(), triple(), caaar(), pivot right(), cons to car(), pivot condition(), caar() :( 04:02:25 Oklopol: your code is busy using the old busted clue 1.0 ;) 04:02:41 Oklopol: i, uh, can't really think of a way to fix that that isn't a gigantic hack. 04:02:46 Indeed! I can fix that. 04:03:05 Oklopol: Yeah, thankfully your program is still written in an identical fashion with everywhere. :p 04:03:16 friction and gravity and impulse is the only counterforce to inertia in space Oklopol 04:03:17 fuck you ~ {. [1] -> [2] . [1] -> [3] } 04:03:32 Is http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2134133721.txt better? 04:03:39 no sry 04:03:39 Oklopol: yes, try it out 04:03:42 ^^I don't think that's syntactically right 04:03:47 there is no friction 04:03:51 What are those raw numbers I see in the code for? 04:03:55 Oh wait 04:03:56 they're integers. 04:03:56 making things preatty simple 04:04:00 Those are both arguments? 04:04:01 everything is just an example invocation. 04:04:05 Sgeo: yes. 04:04:08 Instead of single-argument functions, ok 04:04:13 So my fuck you makes sense? 04:04:13 ...... http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2134133721.txt 04:04:15 Downloading... 04:04:15 Compiling, just a minute... 04:04:15 Exception: Can't compile pivot(pivot condition), quicksort helper(quicksort append), quicksort(length), quicksort append(append), pivot left(pivot), pivot right(pivot), pivot condition(empty) :( 04:04:15 Sgeo: it is valid, but you want to drop the [] there prolly, and you need hints 04:04:34 Oklopol: it's "is empty?" now :D 04:04:51 What about it? 04:05:04 Oklopol: you have "empty" 04:05:06 but it's "is empty?" 04:05:08 thus the failure 04:05:09 :: fuck you ~ {. 1 -> 2 . 1 -> 3 } fuck you ~ inc; dec; #0; #1; compare 04:05:09 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (fuck you) :( 04:05:09 Oh dear. 04:05:12 Sgeo: ^ 04:05:18 the bot likes you not 04:05:26 ::. quicksort 04:05:26 KeyError: 'quicksort' :( 04:05:33 ::. pivot 04:05:33 KeyError: 'pivot' :( 04:05:49 :: boring ~ {. 1 -> 2 . 1 -> 2 } fuck you ~ inc; dec; #0; #1; compare 04:05:49 IndexError: list index out of range :( 04:05:52 Oklopol: btw, why are inc/dec not called succ? also why isn't neg called negate >:) 04:06:01 i kinda see clue as the language of the most verbose, useful names you can come up with, thanks to the spaces 04:06:06 Oops 04:06:12 :: boring ~ {. 1 -> 2 . 1 -> 2 } boring ~ inc; dec; #0; #1; compare 04:06:12 boring: [#0] | _ => inc(1) 04:06:15 Oklopol: also shouldn't your greater than? be "is greater than?" 04:06:22 Sgeo: you just need inc to do that. obviously. 04:06:24 elliott: The way around the fact it's annoying to write "is empty?" will be that some sort of type information will usually tell the system what the contents of the bag should be. 04:06:36 Sgeo: i was just giving fuck you a fighting chance with some nice functions. 04:06:42 Oklopol: right. so shouldn't it be "is greater than?" 04:06:51 Oklopol: and shouldn't neg be negate and sub subtract? 04:07:01 yesss 04:07:05 it totl should 04:07:11 Oklopol: you regressed thank you <3 04:07:13 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol. 04:07:15 what? 04:07:19 oklopol: oh nothing. 04:07:26 ke, as they say in the land of the espanolas 04:07:33 oklopol: i kinda miss Oklopol now, i have a feeling coherency is about to take a big dip :D 04:07:57 oklopol: so um can I implement inc->succ; dec->pred in my impl sometime 04:07:58 i agree with all your naming stuff 04:08:01 okay 04:08:06 i don't have negate or subtract except in foo.clue 04:08:09 which has them as negate and subtract 04:08:12 maybe i should pre-load foo.clue 04:08:13 it's pretty useful 04:08:20 the names of things have annoyed me forever, but it's sooooo much work changing them 04:08:44 .:.:http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8579956286.txt 04:08:45 oklopol: changed to is empty? yet? 04:08:47 ah 04:08:48 oklopol: you forgot space 04:08:51 .:.: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8579956286.txt 04:08:52 Downloading... 04:08:52 Compiling, just a minute... 04:08:52 Exception: Can't compile pivot(), inc twice(), caaar pivot helper(), make singleton(), car pivot helper(), quicksort helper(), pivot condition 2(), caaar with consed(), cons to caaar(), quicksort(), greater than?(), quicksort append(), pivot left(), triple(), caaar(), pivot right(), cons to car(), pivot condition(), caar() :( 04:08:55 actually that was a typo 04:08:57 :D 04:09:39 what now? and also, i'd prefer having negate and abs in the stdlib. i see no point not to 04:10:00 remember, this is not a tarpit, it's a high-level language gone really wrong 04:10:24 so what happened 04:10:48 ... 04:10:49 fuck 04:10:55 i changed all the id's back already 04:10:55 xD 04:11:03 you fix it K? 04:11:41 oklopol: also, negate and abs _are_ in my stdlib 04:11:42 foo.clue 04:11:45 oklopol: also, no :P 04:11:50 oklopol: just use python to do it 04:11:59 oklopol: open('foo').read().replace('; ','') 04:12:07 oklopol: open('foonew').write(open('foo').read().replace('; ','')) 04:12:37 nevahh 04:13:01 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:13:11 * elliott renames foo.clue -> std.clue 04:13:15 :D 04:13:24 gives you an STD on every use! 04:13:37 also btw 04:13:45 oklopol: you might wanna s/dec/pred/ and inc to succ on your code while you remove 04:13:50 'cuz i'm gonna take advantage of the moment 04:13:53 i added append as a primitive 04:13:55 or would "predecessor" and "successor" be better :D 04:14:14 haha 04:14:15 Why does id have <> around its name? 04:14:15 nah, i'll make it pred and succ 04:14:16 totally 04:14:16 :D 04:14:21 Sgeo: old obsolete feature 04:14:25 oklopol: and i'll implement append in the stdlib 04:14:48 technically i could have backwards-compat here 04:14:53 but then you'd never change your progs :D 04:14:55 "[..]However, Mr Braben said that the pair originally had some difficulty finding a publisher, despite the game being popular with their friends. 04:14:55 He said that the game was so different from traditional coin-operated games, not least because Elite did not actually have a score, that most publishers rejected it. 'They just didn't get it, they wanted a high score and they wanted players to have three lives' ..lol 04:15:21 *sigh 04:15:35 oklopol: btw i have greater than? in my stdlib 04:15:39 i'll rename it "is greater than?" 04:15:45 go ahead 04:15:52 oklopol: i still think this verbose naming might be a mistake :D 04:16:23 well there could be shorthands as well. 04:16:36 if it's not clear what is meant, both are added to the bag! 04:16:50 that's the great thing about clue 04:16:56 abs should be absolute value, surely 04:17:06 oerjan: no :D 04:17:16 Y NO 04:17:20 oklopol: after you get qs working can I eliminate , from arglists and lists too? 04:17:22 since that's like 04:17:24 clearly superior 04:17:32 elliott: magnitude, then? 04:17:32 how about "The function that returns the absolute value of the number given as a parameter." 04:17:37 :D 04:17:47 ot that. 04:17:49 *or 04:18:07 "A function that returns the negation (the subtraction from zero) of its argument if it is less than zero, or the argument itself if it is greater than or equal to zero." 04:18:11 yes, ","'s should be removed 04:18:53 also what were the things i was supposed to do for the sourch 04:19:01 (e) 04:19:14 How much of the stdlib is primitives, and how much is written in Clue? 04:19:49 Sgeo: there are a handful of both 04:19:57 oklopol: erm 04:19:59 "It's clues all the way down!" 04:20:00 oklopol: remove ; 04:20:02 oklopol: turn inc->succ 04:20:06 oklopol: turn dec->pred 04:20:08 that should be it for now i think 04:20:11 also empty-> is empty? 04:20:12 (IN AN ALTERNATE IDEAL UNIVERSE) 04:20:25 `quote ALTERN 04:20:26 17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 23) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 24) In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 25) IN AN 04:20:31 oklopol: so anyway, my append function is taking A VERY VERY LONG TIME 04:20:33 What are the ... does TC-ness imply? 04:20:42 Sgeo: what 04:20:45 oklopol: to compile 04:20:45 Why did I just say imply? I meant.. make sense 04:21:01 oh more hints sped it up :D 04:21:18 ---- append 04:21:18 [#0] 04:21:18 | [] => #1 04:21:19 | _ => cons(car(#0) @(cdr(#0) #0)) 04:21:23 :D 04:21:48 :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt 04:21:51 Downloading... 04:21:51 Compiling, just a minute... 04:21:51 Exception: Can't compile quicksort helper(quicksort append), quicksort(length), quicksort append(append) :( 04:21:56 fucking fuck 04:22:02 WHAT IS WRONG NOW 04:22:05 luatre: i added append 04:22:07 *oklopol: 04:22:07 just 04:22:09 let me reload the bot 04:22:11 kay? 04:22:17 well okay..... 04:22:30 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:22:36 -!- luatre has joined. 04:22:36 to get std.clue in 04:22:38 ok go 04:22:54 Sgeo: i imagine there is some function you cannot write in clue because no matter how many sample values you give there is _always_ a candidate function that works for those values and is easier to find. (note: i don't _really_ know how clue works.) 04:23:08 oerjan: but is that function completeable 04:23:10 *works only for 04:23:15 :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt 04:23:22 oerjan: and remember that it only uses functions _you_ allow it to 04:23:30 oklopol: what did you do to it. 04:23:31 hm. 04:23:50 oerjan: you can basically write imperative code 04:23:55 Downloading... 04:23:55 Compiling, just a minute... 04:23:55 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:23:59 oh heh 04:24:05 MURDERERS 04:24:07 THE LOT OF YOU 04:24:10 it takes 46 seconds on my computer 04:24:12 missed a flush 04:24:14 -!- luatre has joined. 04:24:15 oklopol: try when it comes back 04:24:18 and with your append, of course much more 04:24:21 like, now 04:24:31 because the function that takes 46 seconds is slow because it uses append so much 04:24:33 :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt 04:24:34 Downloading... 04:24:34 Compiling, just a minute... 04:24:43 if it takes 3 seconds i'll lol at your feeble computer 04:24:49 :P 04:25:02 computer is heating up 04:25:12 consider adding append as a primitive 04:25:19 oklopol: consider FUCK YOU 04:25:24 clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness 04:25:26 or ability to run at all 04:25:39 Exception: Can't compile quicksort(length) :( 04:25:43 oklopol: elliott: i sincerly hope you will make a clue wiki page 04:25:45 oklopol: :DDD 04:25:49 ability to run at all is not even close a design goal, no 04:25:50 i'll add append to std.clue 04:25:50 *+e 04:25:53 *to 04:26:14 length? 04:26:27 erm yes 04:26:28 length 04:26:28 :::. 04:26:29 yeah i added a length function 04:26:32 as primitive, do you have it? 04:26:39 ::. length 04:26:39 KeyError: 'length' :( 04:26:45 hm 04:26:51 also make append check that its arg is not an integer 04:26:56 that's very important 04:27:04 oklopol: what does it do for integers 04:27:06 that either of them isn't 04:27:10 returns none 04:27:22 oklopol: None the python object? 04:27:24 you are joking yes :) 04:27:26 sure 04:27:34 well anyway reloading is broken SO 04:27:35 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:27:36 oh it has a special meaning 04:27:42 it is an exception 04:27:43 ah, i had error 04:27:57 -!- luatre has joined. 04:27:59 oklopol: i haven't implemented that :) 04:28:02 ::. length 04:28:02 length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0))) 04:28:05 ...:D 04:28:10 SNEAKY 04:28:16 at some point, i'm going to add { . [1] -> ! }, that is, erroring out 04:28:22 oklopol: excuse me ^ 04:28:35 as a primitive type system 04:28:36 :::. 04:28:38 ::. length 04:28:39 length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0))) 04:28:41 ::. length 04:28:41 length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0))) 04:28:42 ::. length 04:28:42 length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0))) 04:28:43 ::. length 04:28:43 length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0))) 04:28:43 `addquote clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no 04:28:44 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:28:44 262) clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no 04:28:44 ...very primitive :D 04:28:50 -!- luatre has joined. 04:28:50 ::. length 04:28:51 length: [#0] | [] => 0 | _ => succ(@(cdr(#0))) 04:28:53 that's better 04:28:55 oklopol: try now 04:29:02 :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt 04:29:03 Downloading... 04:29:03 Compiling, just a minute... 04:29:03 oerjan: I _mentioned_ ability to run before that :P 04:29:16 "just a minute" is funny because it actually takes about a minute. 04:29:23 caaar ~ {. [1, 3, 4] -> 4} 04:29:24 caaar ~ car; cdr 04:29:35 oklopol: i suspect this will turn into "[#0] | _ => 4" 04:29:35 yeah it's not really caaar 04:29:37 :P 04:29:40 if that's what you mean 04:29:46 oklopol: i suspect this will turn into "[#0] | _ => 4" 04:29:47 is what i mean 04:29:50 but yes, that is also true :P 04:30:00 laptop heating up 04:30:10 caaar pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to caaar(car(#0) #1) 04:30:10 greater than?: [compare(#0 #1)] | 1 => 1 | -1 => 0 | 0 => 0 04:30:10 car pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to car(car(#0) #1) 04:30:10 pivot right: [#0] | _ => caaar(pivot(#0 #1)) 04:30:10 quicksort helper: [#0] | _ => quicksort append(#0 car(#1) #2) 04:30:11 pivot condition 2: [greater than?(#0 car(#1))] | 0 => 2 | 1 => 3 04:30:11 caaar: [#0] | _ => car(cdr(cdr(#0))) 04:30:12 cons to caaar: [#0] | _ => triple(car(#1) caar(#1) caaar with consed(#0 #1)) 04:30:12 make singleton: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 []) 04:30:13 quicksort: [length(#0)] | 0 => #0 | 1 => #0 | _ => quicksort helper(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) #0 @(pivot right(car(#0) cdr(#0)))) 04:30:13 quicksort append: [#0] | _ => append(#0 append(make singleton(#1) #2)) 04:30:14 pivot left: [#0] | _ => car(pivot(#0 #1)) 04:30:14 triple: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 cons(#1 make singleton(#2))) 04:30:14 how could it turn into that 04:30:15 caaar with consed: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 caaar(#1)) 04:30:24 in no way could it turn into that, #4 is not given 04:30:27 oh right 04:30:30 okay sure try it out 04:30:35 ooh 04:30:40 :: quicksort([5 4 1 9 2]) 04:30:40 ... quicksort (1, 2 ,3) 04:30:41 ValueError: substring not found :( 04:30:41 asojuhgfiuje 04:30:47 oklopol: fail :D 04:30:47 now 04:30:48 let's see 04:30:51 :. quicksort([5 4 1 9 2]) 04:30:52 [1 2 4 5 9] 04:30:56 \o/ 04:30:56 | 04:30:57 /`\ 04:30:58 oklopol: you are god 04:31:10 :. quicksort([5 4 1 9 2 54 45 643 6 3 67 4 53 564 354 4 55 6 65 5 54 45 45 34 34 54 65 67 76 76 54 6356 345 6 3467 356 46 536 345 6543 6 435 67 58678 54 5 234 5245]) 04:31:11 [1 2 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 9 34 34 45 45 45 46 53 54 54 54 54 54 55 65 65 67 67 67 76 76 234 345 345 354 356 435 536 564 643 3467 5245 6356 6543 58678] 04:31:20 it even runs in finite time! 04:31:22 it's great how the actual programs aren't slow at all 04:31:24 WITHOUT blowing the stack! 04:31:37 :. [5 4 1 9 2 54 45 643 6 3 67 4 53 564 354 4 55 6 65 5 54 45 45 34 34 54 65 67 76 76 54 6356 345 6 3467 356 46 536 345 6543 6 435 67 58678 54 5 234 5245] 04:31:38 [5 4 1 9 2 54 45 643 6 3 67 4 53 564 354 4 55 6 65 5 54 45 45 34 34 54 65 67 76 76 54 6356 345 6 3467 356 46 536 345 6543 6 435 67 58678 54 5 234 5245] 04:31:43 :. length([5 4 1 9 2 54 45 643 6 3 67 4 53 564 354 4 55 6 65 5 54 45 45 34 34 54 65 67 76 76 54 6356 345 6 3467 356 46 536 345 6543 6 435 67 58678 54 5 234 5245]) 04:31:43 48 04:31:50 oklopol: yeah anything that can sort a 48 second list in a second is amazing in my book :D 04:31:52 erm 04:31:54 *48 element 04:32:13 elliott: you aren't being sarcastic by any chance? :D 04:32:25 oklopol: MAYBE 04:32:32 you sounded very oerjan for that line 04:32:37 /nick oerklopol 04:32:48 oklopol: but yeah, p. amazing 04:32:52 how come this actually works 04:32:56 idgi 04:32:57 kinda...damaging my faith in languages? 04:33:01 maybe mergesort next 04:33:07 wanna do it? 04:33:16 oklopol: isn't it the clue way that, after doing one sort, you don't need to do any more 04:33:23 because a smart impl could just turn it into any sort it wants 04:33:30 ergo i don't have to do that :D 04:33:33 oerjan: yeah probably i should write up a couple page spec 04:33:43 oklopol: you've done fib right? 04:33:51 nope 04:33:54 go for it 04:33:56 oklopol: oh? then I can 04:33:56 yay 04:34:11 oklopol: i'm very close to writing a clue mode for emacs 04:34:14 just to do the fucking indentation for me 04:34:14 :D 04:34:17 well, *alignment 04:34:23 btw that quicksort should probably go in the stdlib. 04:34:28 why not make it official 04:34:41 although all the functions you made for it should be primitives imo :P 04:34:41 oklopol: well. you see. i would. except the stdlib currently takes about a second to compile. 04:34:49 yeah i might make them primitives ;x 04:34:54 but i'll do fib first 04:35:04 what's wrong with stdlib taking a minute to compile? :D 04:35:36 oerjan: anyway with the tcness definition most people have, clue is tc because i made ski in it 04:36:02 * Sgeo goes to write a wrapper for the AW SDK in Clue 04:36:07 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3111652293.txt 04:36:07 Downloading... 04:36:08 Compiling, just a minute... 04:36:09 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (fib) :( 04:36:30 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p7621978181.txt 04:36:30 Downloading... 04:36:31 Compiling, just a minute... 04:36:32 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (fib) :( 04:36:35 what 04:36:52 oklopol: 04:37:09 oh 04:37:10 duh 04:37:31 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8721655922.txt 04:37:31 Downloading... 04:37:31 Compiling, just a minute... 04:37:32 fib: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => pred(#0) 04:37:33 kinda obvious 04:37:36 oklopol: :DDD 04:38:16 what 04:38:17 xD 04:38:25 that's so fucking great 04:38:29 i know, best fib ever 04:38:36 this language really makes you think 04:38:41 oklopol: i like how i TOLD it i was going to recurse 04:38:46 but it was like... 04:38:49 nah man, this shit is easy 04:38:52 :D 04:38:52 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8928373356.txt 04:38:52 Downloading... 04:38:52 Compiling, just a minute... 04:38:52 fib: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(#0)) @(pred(pred(#0)))) 04:38:56 :DDD 04:39:00 :. fib(10) 04:39:00 55 04:39:01 :. fib(100) 04:39:07 * elliott 's machine catches fire 04:39:07 erm 04:39:18 oklopol: erm? 04:39:21 note that the problem is your algo 04:39:26 that's all 04:39:32 oklopol: my algo looks right to me? 04:39:36 i mean 04:39:41 ":. fib(100)" taking forever 04:39:43 it would in haskell too 04:39:46 well, right 04:39:52 i think i might kill the bot! 04:40:03 i'm just very protective of clue 04:40:11 so i had to tell that right away 04:40:40 `run sed -i 's/usefulness/usefulness or ability to run at all' quotes 04:40:42 No output. 04:40:44 i'ma internalise^Wprimitivise the functions now 04:40:47 `quote ability to 04:40:48 No output. 04:40:50 `quote ability 04:40:53 262) clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no 04:40:59 eek 04:41:03 `paste quotes 04:41:04 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18966 04:41:07 maybe i'll write a real crappy page for clue now so you can then complain about it and i have to make it better 04:41:09 oerjan: the way of the quote database is very subtle. 04:41:20 actually that sounds really hard 04:41:28 oerjan: you missed the last / for instance >:) 04:41:35 darn 04:41:39 wikis are very scary 04:41:40 oklopol: oh man my machine is churning 04:41:49 elliott: fib 100 will never run 04:42:01 `run sed -i 's/usefulness/usefulness or ability to run at all/' quotes 04:42:03 No output. 04:42:20 oklopol: what should I make add([] []) be? 04:42:22 i don't want an error 04:42:24 errors are for like 04:42:25 donkey butts 04:42:26 oh wait 04:42:29 do errors in testing make the test fail? 04:42:32 if so that'd be beneficial 04:42:38 ? 04:42:49 oklopol: add([1 2] [3 4]), I want to stop it working 04:42:49 elliott: well i knew i was tempting fate with using sed -i at all :D 04:42:57 stop it working in what sense 04:42:58 will raising an exception make all tests involving add on list "fail"? 04:43:00 without breaking things 04:43:03 oklopol: stop it returning [1 2 3 4]. 04:43:10 you return None, as i said 04:43:14 `quote ability 04:43:15 -!- luatre has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:43:15 262) clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness or ability to run at all ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no 04:43:24 that will not give you a None object in code 04:43:26 it's special. 04:43:41 oklopol: oh-KAY 04:43:41 and it means test cases will fail, i guess that's what you wanna hear 04:43:56 btw isinstance(a,int) fails for sufficiently big a 04:44:00 and s/int/long/ works only for big a 04:44:02 so int(a)==a is best 04:44:43 > let fib = 1:1:zipWith(+)fib(tail fib) in fib!!100 04:44:44 573147844013817084101 04:44:44 oklopol: length(0), None or 1? 04:44:45 :P 04:45:04 length of numbers should be None 04:45:26 types will play a very important in clue 1.5 04:45:28 *role 04:45:49 so let's try to separate the existing two types as much as possible 04:46:26 * elliott removes is even? from stdlib for now 04:46:27 oklopol: okay 04:46:52 oklopol: i'm leaving is zero?, is negative?, and is greater than? in stdlib 04:46:57 because they're... not performance-intensive 04:47:09 -!- luatre has joined. 04:47:13 heh luatre died due to not responding to pings due to being lagged 04:47:14 yeah that's good 04:47:27 oklopol: wanna rename caaar to what it actually is and then link me to the qsort? 04:47:31 i'll add it to my filesystem 04:47:33 haha 04:47:35 yeah maybe 04:47:36 is odd? should be called i don't even? 04:47:40 oerjan: :D 04:47:45 what is this(i don't even?(42)) 04:47:57 oklopol: have you done fact 04:49:06 btw god esolanging is fun, why don't we do it more often :D 04:49:18 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8325321461.txt 04:49:19 code=reduce(lambda a,b:a+b,[i for i in code if i!=" "]) 04:49:25 oklopol: you realise that this doesn't remove newlines? 04:49:32 or are they removed elsewher 04:49:32 e 04:50:09 newlines are not the same as spaces 04:50:28 that is true 04:50:29 they are the end marker of bags 04:50:33 oh, true 04:50:51 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:50:53 i don't really know the syntax... 04:51:00 exactly i mean 04:51:13 "do like in these examples and it should work" 04:51:26 oklopol: how many :s should comments be 04:51:27 *dots 04:51:36 so hmm 04:51:38 four? that's kinda nice since :: looks commenty 04:51:43 or six, ::: looks the same 04:51:44 :: is used 04:51:45 and :: might be wanted for something 04:51:46 okay 04:51:47 :::? 04:51:51 or ...... :D 04:51:53 just not implemented 04:51:55 or :.:. 04:51:57 or .::. 04:52:01 yeah i'll make it six if that's okay 04:52:07 erm well 04:52:13 is that not okay :p 04:52:18 it would be nice if 5 was used as well then 04:52:25 oklopol: well that's reserved for future expansion 04:52:28 :D 04:52:29 haha 04:52:31 yeah that's good 04:52:37 "reserved" 04:52:41 yes :D 04:52:57 are you actually adding :::? 04:53:08 you can just make it cut the rest of the line 04:53:09 yes 04:53:12 i am going to do that 04:53:14 as you were going to do 04:53:16 just saying 04:53:19 :P 04:54:09 oh god that exams gonna go baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad 04:54:20 caaar (l) = we need to go deeper (3 l) 04:54:31 oerjan: xD 04:54:44 haha 04:55:10 btw once ! is added, you can pretty much exactly write the code you want 04:55:12 know what that means? 04:55:15 no 04:55:29 well umm, hard to put it to words 04:55:40 but it has a similar role as a weird thing as it does in prolog 04:55:43 of course, completely different 04:55:54 but it's this sort of technical thing that can be used to guide searches 04:55:59 right 04:56:06 ghetto_ast is ghetto no more, incorporated into clue.py itself 04:56:10 it's actually very natural in clue, but i just find that fun for some reason 04:56:32 also the meaning is actually kinda similar, "stop this branch of search" 04:56:44 TODO: rename the luatre functions to something nicer, put in luatre.py 04:56:50 (I've decided that the expression language is called luatre) 04:57:14 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:57:20 -!- luatre has joined. 04:57:26 oklopol: put quicksort in again 04:57:38 ! = cut that out 04:57:39 oklopol: while i work on a faster fib 04:58:07 :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt 04:58:08 Downloading... 04:58:08 Compiling, just a minute... 04:58:14 how do I indicate an error in Haskell ? 04:58:24 caaar pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to caaar(car(#0) #1) 04:58:24 greater than?: [compare(#0 #1)] | 1 => 1 | -1 => 0 | 0 => 0 04:58:24 car pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to car(car(#0) #1) 04:58:24 pivot right: [#0] | _ => caaar(pivot(#0 #1)) 04:58:24 quicksort helper: [#0] | _ => quicksort append(#0 car(#1) #2) 04:58:24 pivot condition 2: [greater than?(#0 car(#1))] | 0 => 2 | 1 => 3 04:58:24 caaar: [#0] | _ => car(cdr(cdr(#0))) 04:58:25 cons to caaar: [#0] | _ => triple(car(#1) caar(#1) caaar with consed(#0 #1)) 04:58:25 make singleton: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 []) 04:58:26 oerjan: would be nice except it's not a function 04:58:26 quicksort: [length(#0)] | 0 => #0 | 1 => #0 | _ => quicksort helper(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) #0 @(pivot right(car(#0) cdr(#0)))) 04:58:26 quicksort append: [#0] | _ => append(#0 append(make singleton(#1) #2)) 04:58:27 pivot left: [#0] | _ => car(pivot(#0 #1)) 04:58:32 > error "Message here" 04:58:33 *Exception: Message here 04:58:39 variable: error "foo" for simple stuff 04:58:51 elliott, perfect - thanks 04:58:55 * Sgeo wants a jetpack 04:58:59 variable: you might also consider returning (Maybe resulttype) instead, or having (Either SomeErrorType resulttype) 04:59:00 who doesn't 04:59:00 http://www.martinjetpack.com/ 04:59:03 variable: for API functions 04:59:21 elliott, nah - I need Error in this case :-} 04:59:22 "The Martin Jetpack is a experimental aircraft. Its tradename calls it a "jet pack", but is not jet- or rocket-powered." 04:59:34 elliott: consider printing compilation time btw, i find it very interesting at least 04:59:39 oklopol: sure 04:59:48 variable: it's just that error and friends can only be caught in the IO monad 04:59:49 so 04:59:56 can someone make a disambiguation page? :P 05:00:19 while Either and Maybe can be analyzed by pure functions 05:00:27 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:00:32 -!- luatre has joined. 05:00:47 when clue was young, i remember ais523 saying "yay, we get our first disambiguation page" 05:01:02 variable: also there is undefined for when you don't even want to give a message 05:01:02 oklopol, lulz 05:01:06 oklopol: should keymaker's lang be "Clue (Keymaker)" or "Clue (2009)" 05:01:14 the former is more disambiguous, the latter...nicer? 05:01:18 oerjan, does error exit the program? or does it continue going.... 05:01:21 in fact clue oklopol has no defined creation date i guess 05:01:22 for sure 05:01:23 *year 05:01:24 so keymaker 05:02:13 oklopol: clue was invented 2010—2011? 05:02:17 or 2009? or 2010? 05:02:23 i doubt it was in 2010 05:02:30 maybe more like 2009 05:02:33 okay 05:02:49 it's hard to say when it became a distinct language, all the ideas were there much before 05:02:59 oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue 05:03:02 variable: it exits unless you catch it from IO 05:03:54 maybe i should call clue clue++, add km's clue commands, and say clue++ is an extension of clue 05:04:05 ...or maybe not :D 05:04:10 elliott: thanks 05:04:18 now all i need to do is actually write something 05:04:19 oklopol: try qsort now 05:04:21 it'll say the time 05:04:28 yayy 05:04:34 :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt 05:04:35 Downloading... 05:04:35 Compiling, just a minute... 05:04:51 TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'float' objects :( 05:05:08 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]). 05:05:17 elliott, http://pastebin.com/PETSzuE1 --> something is obviously wrong 05:05:18 unn.hs:6:12: parse error on input `<-' 05:05:24 elliott, you should have oved it 05:05:26 moved 05:05:31 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 05:05:32 Oh, n/m 05:05:39 maybe for all the syntax things, there could be a verbose command as well, but uppercase: "!" = CUT IT OUT, ":." = "RECURSION BRACH", ":" = SUBBRANCH 05:05:45 variable: you forgot do 05:05:48 variable: essentially haskell has two kinds of error responses, the ones like error, undefined and throw (with more advanced exception options) that don't show up in your expression type but which exit and can only be caught in IO at most, and the other kind like Maybe and Either which show up in your expression type (usually as a monad wrapper) and don't exit but the result needs to be analyzed by the caller 05:05:55 variable: also Maybe isn't a value 05:05:57 it's a type 05:05:57 Didn't see that the Talk page was in fact on Clue (Keymaker) 05:06:01 so i have no clue whet you were trying to do now 05:06:08 HAHA CLUE 05:06:13 HAHAHAHAHAHA 05:06:24 elliott, I need parseUnn to return either " 05:06:34 an error or "" depending whether the file exists 05:06:49 variable: 05:06:54 if fileExists then error "Oh no." 05:06:59 else return () 05:07:01 is probably what you want 05:07:13 your current function would need {return ""} as well as the fix for Maybe 05:07:15 and you'd have to putStr it 05:07:18 but that would be exceedingly pointless 05:07:39 hrm? 05:07:40 Someone should put a Network Headache server back up 05:07:42 Permanently 05:08:00 Or 05:08:06 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:08:11 I wonder if Network Headache could be made to work serverlessly 05:10:14 oklopol: wait 05:10:17 05:04 luatre: TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'float' objects :( 05:10:18 what 05:10:20 ohh 05:10:28 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:10:33 try _now_ when it comes back 05:10:34 -!- luatre has joined. 05:10:41 elliott, http://pastebin.com/fLwG6dzU -> now I'm getting incorrect indentation 05:11:18 { also I have new idea for a language: similar to python - except that it enforces a *horid* indentation pattern :-)) 05:11:24 :D 05:11:42 oklopol: 05:11:52 variable: indent the else 05:11:55 variable: um yes, then and else must be at the same level 05:11:58 oerjan: better: separate the then 05:12:01 put a new line and two spaces before then 05:12:03 and align the else 05:12:16 elliott, ah then & else. I was aligning the if and else :-) 05:12:29 well then and else don't _need_ to be at the same level, but that may be best 05:12:35 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3599837528.txt 05:12:35 Downloading... 05:12:36 Compiling, just a minute... 05:12:36 Compiled in 0.0620181560516 seconds 05:12:36 slow fibonacci: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(#0)) @(pred(pred(#0)))) 05:12:36 fibonacci: [#0] | _ => fast fibonacci loop(#0 0 1) 05:12:36 fast fibonacci loop: [#0] | 0 => #1 | _ => @(pred(#0) #2 add(#1 #2)) 05:12:43 oklopol: this fibonacci function is VERY fast 05:12:44 I put the then on a new line now :-} 05:12:45 :. fibonacci(100) 05:12:45 354224848179261915075L 05:12:47 :. fibonacci(1000) 05:12:47 OverflowError: long int too large to convert to int :( 05:12:50 ...:D 05:12:52 that needs _fixing_ 05:12:53 did you implement ::: already? 05:13:02 oklopol: as comments, yes 05:13:03 untested :D 05:13:17 oklopol: i'm going to go fix all the functions to not use int() now 05:13:24 variable: technically it's not that else needs to be aligned with anything, but it _cannot_ be aligned with the do statements since it isn't a statement of its own 05:13:34 oklopol: i'll use, uh, long() or something... or maybe maybeintmaybelong() 05:13:35 i'll put ::: on the wiki then 05:13:45 oerjan, ok - that makes sense 05:13:47 oklopol: anyway feed it quicksort again 05:14:23 variable: this actually is being tweaked in the newest haskell standard i think because it trips up so many people 05:15:00 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:15:05 -!- luatre has joined. 05:15:08 oklopol: feed it qs again dammit :D 05:15:11 it'll print compilation time 05:15:14 but actually 05:15:15 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3599837528.txt 05:15:15 Downloading... 05:15:16 Compiling, just a minute... 05:15:16 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (fast fibonacci loop) :( 05:15:17 wait until this finishes 05:15:21 what?! 05:15:26 :( 05:15:27 elliott, two more questions a) how do I go thru all the command line arguments b) how do I get the *number* of command line arguments 05:15:29 oklopol: your depth limit is too low 05:15:38 or wait 05:15:39 maybe i have a bug 05:15:54 ah! 05:15:55 indeed 05:16:02 count getArgs ? 05:16:03 { also I have new idea for a language: similar to python - except that it enforces a *horid* indentation pattern :-)) <-- that is one of my design goals for my (mostly vaporware) language Reaper 05:16:22 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:16:27 -!- luatre has joined. 05:16:30 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3599837528.txt 05:16:30 Downloading... 05:16:31 Compiling, just a minute... 05:16:31 Compiled in 0.0681719779968 seconds 05:16:31 slow fibonacci: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(#0)) @(pred(pred(#0)))) 05:16:31 fibonacci: [#0] | _ => fast fibonacci loop(#0 0 1) 05:16:31 fast fibonacci loop: [#0] | 0 => #1 | _ => @(pred(#0) #2 add(#1 #2)) 05:16:37 :. fibonacci(1000) 05:16:37 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :( 05:16:44 dude :( 05:16:53 :. fibonacci(100) 05:16:53 354224848179261915075L 05:16:55 :. fibonacci(800) 05:16:55 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :( 05:16:57 :. fibonacci(500) 05:16:57 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :( 05:17:00 :. fibonacci(300) 05:17:00 222232244629420445529739893461909967206666939096499764990979600L 05:17:08 oklopol: apart from your impl being kinda sucky, that fibonacci is stupid fast :P 05:17:09 oerjan, , two more questions a) how do I go thru all the command line arguments b) how do I get the *number* of command line arguments 05:17:12 and easy to write, too 05:17:21 variable: mapM_ to go through command arguments 05:17:28 mapM_ someFunc aList 05:17:35 number is just (length args) obviously 05:17:36 :) 05:17:42 args ? 05:17:50 variable: if you've done "args <- getArgs" 05:17:53 oh right 05:17:55 * variable is an idiot 05:17:57 :) 05:18:05 -!- azaq23 has joined. 05:18:09 oklopol: fine I'll feed it qs 05:18:10 now - once I bind args - how do I get out of the "do" 05:18:17 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt 05:18:17 Downloading... 05:18:17 Compiling, just a minute... 05:18:18 variable: what 05:18:19 I don't need to be in an IO thing anymore 05:18:26 I want to go back to pure functional 05:18:29 variable: um, you can't, what do you mean 05:18:32 variable: just call purely-functional functions 05:18:34 kk 05:18:37 inside the do 05:18:39 and do something with them 05:18:40 e.g. 05:18:45 print (somePurelyFunctionalThing 42) 05:18:47 Compiled in 14.6956260204 seconds 05:18:48 caaar pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to caaar(car(#0) #1) 05:18:48 cons to car: [#0] | _ => cons(cons(#0 car(#1)) cdr(#1)) 05:18:48 triple: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 cons(#1 make singleton(#2))) 05:18:48 quicksort helper: [#0] | _ => quicksort append(#0 car(#1) #2) 05:18:48 pivot condition 2: [greater than?(#0 car(#1))] | 0 => 2 | 1 => 3 05:18:48 caaar with consed: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 caaar(#1)) 05:18:49 cons to caaar: [#0] | _ => triple(car(#1) caar(#1) caaar with consed(#0 #1)) 05:18:49 make singleton: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 []) 05:18:50 quicksort: [length(#0)] | 0 => #0 | 1 => #0 | _ => quicksort helper(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) #0 @(pivot right(car(#0) cdr(#0)))) 05:18:50 caar: [#0] | _ => car(cdr(#0)) 05:18:51 quicksort append: [#0] | _ => append(#0 append(make singleton(#1) #2)) 05:18:51 pivot left: [#0] | _ => car(pivot(#0 #1)) 05:18:52 car pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to car(car(#0) #1) 05:19:08 elliott, erm - I need to get the number of arguments **before** I do args <- 05:19:09 oh wait, that is a slightly old one 05:19:10 but who cares :) 05:19:17 variable: no, you don't, and that's patently impossible 05:19:17 otherwise haskell outputs an error 05:19:27 variable: where do you use the arguments? 05:19:28 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:33 variable: show your code 05:19:34 -!- luatre has joined. 05:19:39 elliott,hang on a sec 05:20:30 elliott, meh - I made a mistake 05:20:41 before I had (fileName:_) which caused an error with 0 arguments 05:21:00 indeed 05:21:02 variable: try 05:21:03 case args of 05:21:07 [fileName] -> ... 05:21:12 _ -> error "you used it wrong, idiot!" 05:21:18 rather than mucking about with length etc. 05:21:33 kk 05:22:32 oklopol: did you die 05:22:35 variable: or possibly [] -> error "you used it wrong, idiot!" as the first option if you want to allow more than one filename 05:22:40 oklopol: can you do constants for branchers already 05:22:42 case args of 05:22:48 [] -> error "you used it wrong, idiot!" 05:22:55 filenames -> ... 05:22:55 _ -> mapM_ processArg args 05:23:01 or that 05:23:04 elliott: will you remove the commas btw? 05:23:09 or did you already? 05:23:14 because i'll make that official if 05:23:48 oklopol: i will now 05:23:52 oklopol: if you remove them from qsort :P 05:24:16 i can remove them from quicksort and ski, sure 05:24:23 oklopol: thanks 05:24:26 oklopol: i'll give you my latest ski 05:24:29 i think i modded it 05:24:52 oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1739965483.txt 05:25:02 variable: incidentally it is generally considered bad form to use length to check whether a list is empty, since that works badly when you want computation to be as lazy as possible, especially with empty lists 05:25:12 er 05:25:19 *especially with infinite lists 05:25:40 oklopol: oh, this might be an issue 05:25:46 oklopol: you kinda strip spaces 05:25:49 which become the only separators 05:25:49 oerjan, makes sense 05:26:02 oklopol: shall i uh redesign the parser :D 05:26:25 in fact even using list == [] is considered bad form because that needlessly forces the element type to be comparable for equality 05:26:57 yeah infinite cmd line args 05:26:57 :D 05:27:18 elliott: well i'm just trying to prevent him from getting into bad habits 05:27:38 yes yes :) 05:28:08 hm 05:28:10 :t null 05:28:11 forall a. [a] -> Bool 05:28:18 indeed 05:28:20 oklopol: so uh any ideas 05:28:33 that's the function to use, although it's usually even better if you can use pattern matching 05:28:41 oerjan, I'm a little confused now: how do I return from a function that an error occurred? Just, Maybe ? 05:28:59 variable: Nothing 05:29:02 :t Nothing 05:29:02 forall a. Maybe a 05:29:12 oklopol: i think i fixed it 05:29:13 (that's a value ;D) 05:29:26 oklopol: indeed 05:29:29 oklopol: do you want my current interP? 05:29:31 oerjan, Nothing is an error ? I was using it to say that nothing needs be done - should I return () for that? 05:29:31 *interp? 05:29:43 variable: data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing 05:29:49 variable: imagine the result of a hash table lookup 05:29:53 if an element is there, you would return (Just value) 05:29:55 otherwise, Nothing 05:29:57 that's the use of it 05:30:04 ah 05:30:07 that makes sense 05:30:12 variable: hm if you aren't actually returning a value in either case, maybe it would better to use Bool 05:30:14 note that obviously if you return Nothing somewhere you have to return Nothing or (Just x) everywhere 05:30:19 otherwise you'd be stepping outside Maybe 05:30:32 oerjan: except 05:30:35 i want your interp once i've written a crappy version of the spec 05:30:37 oerjan: he's already wrapping doesFileExist 05:30:38 oerjan, the weird thing in this case is that I need to return nothing except on error 05:30:40 which results in IO Bool 05:30:40 :) 05:30:46 elliott: yeah :D 05:30:48 variable: try this: 05:31:24 filterM doesFileExist 05:31:32 :t filterM 05:31:32 forall a (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a] 05:31:35 variable: runProg filename = do exists <- doesFileExist filename; if exists then error "Oh no!" else return (); main = do args <- getArgs; case args of [] -> error "Oh no!"; _ -> mapM_ runProg args 05:31:37 oerjan, http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Unnecessary --> Writing a compiler for this 05:31:40 oerjan: oh, now it's on 05:32:07 :t any 05:32:07 forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool 05:32:11 :t anyM 05:32:12 Not in scope: `anyM' 05:32:15 elliott, I had that - but then the compiler exits after the first bad file name 05:32:27 variable: ah, you do not want that? 05:32:50 elliott, no - I want it to go thru every given file name and report failure of any of them 05:32:56 @hoogle (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 05:32:56 Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 05:32:56 Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 05:32:57 Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 05:33:11 variable: don't use error, then 05:33:19 elliott, just return a plain string? 05:33:37 main = getArgs >>= filterM doesFileExist >>= mapM_ (\bad -> putStrLn "Oh no! " ++ bad ++ " exists!") 05:33:39 just use that >:) 05:33:48 variable: I would use putStrLn directly 05:33:50 ==...== is a section, can i make a subsection kinda thing 05:33:51 since you're in IO already 05:33:55 oklopol: ===foo=== 05:34:07 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:34:11 everything else someone else will have to fic 05:34:13 *fix 05:34:13 -!- luatre has joined. 05:34:14 thanks 05:34:16 oklopol: commas removed, plz2be qsort and ski 05:34:20 with that ski i gave you 05:34:50 oklopol: so it's 5:34 am and i blame you 05:35:48 Vorpal: oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Ambience oh holy fucking shit i had no idea this exists 05:35:52 *existed 05:35:53 why does this exist 05:36:05 elliott: i think it would have become 5:34 am eventually regardless 05:37:06 elliott, http://pastebin.com/8SRWxGm4 this is what I have so far. If I add putStrLn before parseUnn it fails; if uncomment the commented line it fails 05:37:11 oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PA2uLm8ups jesus fucking christ this is terrifying 05:37:27 variable: ok well, that is wrong 05:37:33 variable: pop quiz 05:37:43 variable: er wait i see 05:37:46 variable: right, okay, firstly 05:37:47 you're in IO 05:37:50 so you need to have -> IO String 05:37:51 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:37:55 oh - right 05:38:15 variable: "putStrLn parseUnn" fails because parseUnn isn't a string :) 05:38:34 variable: mapM_ (\filename -> parseUnn filename >>= putStrLn) fileNames would work 05:38:36 but is rather ugly 05:38:42 oerjan should not respond with fancy monad operators now 05:38:45 as it will not help :) 05:38:51 variable: I would s/return/putStrLn/ in parseUnn 05:38:58 elliott, I'd rather not 05:39:02 variable: and note that putStrLn "" will print a blank line -- use return () instead 05:39:03 variable: why not? 05:39:09 cause I want to learn the functional method of doing things 05:39:18 variable: the functional method of doing things is not done in IO :-) but okay 05:39:29 variable: well... add \n to the end of the error string 05:39:41 then s/putStrLn/putStr/ in the line that i said would work but is ugly 05:39:43 that would work 05:39:47 A song got stuck in my head 05:39:47 elliott, the goal of this isn't to get it done. I did it in bash, perl, ruby, etc already - its to learn the language 05:39:54 It contains more than my usual amount of swearing 05:39:59 variable: yeah :) 05:40:07 variable: try to one-line project euler problems in haskell 05:40:10 variable: well, the whole operation of Unnecessary is basically IO. 05:40:19 if FILE EXISTS, ok, if not, PRINT AN ERROR 05:40:25 variable: so it is hard to suggest a functional way to do this :) 05:40:44 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 05:40:52 elliott, heh 05:41:01 variable: although it _is_ possible to use higher-order monadic functions like filterM and mapM 05:41:06 *mapM_ 05:41:07 oerjan is right 05:41:07 coppro, I will - I've already done a few of them though 05:41:15 oerjan, explain ? 05:41:39 main = getArgs >>= filterM doesFileExist >>= mapM_ (\bad -> putStrLn "Oh no! " ++ bad ++ " exists!") 05:41:55 @hoogle (a -> b) -> (c -> m a) -> c -> m b 05:41:55 Language.Haskell.TH.Quote dataToQa :: Data a => (Name -> k) -> (Lit -> Q q) -> (k -> [Q q] -> Q q) -> (b -> Maybe (Q q)) -> a -> Q q 05:41:58 darn 05:42:00 oerjan, interesting 05:42:02 * variable has an idea 05:43:11 oklopol: hihi are you converting 05:43:25 oklopol: holy fucking shit 05:43:26 oklopol: http://i.imgur.com/iJ2eG.jpg 05:43:27 that bastard 05:43:30 i am gonna rip his head off :D 05:45:05 oklopol: taaalk 05:45:32 @more 05:45:46 i distinctly recall @more working once upon a time 05:45:48 or wait 05:45:57 @hoogle (a -> b) -> (c -> m a) -> c -> m b 05:45:57 Language.Haskell.TH.Quote dataToQa :: Data a => (Name -> k) -> (Lit -> Q q) -> (k -> [Q q] -> Q q) -> (b -> Maybe (Q q)) -> a -> Q q 05:45:59 @more 05:46:06 there is no more :P 05:46:21 just in case someone else had got a command in in #haskell or such 05:46:51 elliott: well it's fmap/liftM + <=< of course 05:47:00 but it may not have a single function for it 05:47:14 or wait 05:47:22 oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol 05:47:25 oerjan: make oklopol talk 05:48:00 :t (\f x -> fmap f . x) 05:48:01 forall a b (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f a) -> f1 (f b) 05:48:11 er 05:48:50 oklopol 05:49:08 oh wait right 05:49:10 :t (.) 05:49:10 forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 05:49:20 lambdabot still defines (.) = fmap :D 05:49:21 oerjan: make oklopol talk 05:49:27 oklopol: TALK 05:49:30 :t map 05:49:31 forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 05:49:33 LAME 05:49:39 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:49:47 oerjan: but yes, of course it defines (.) = fmap, as specified by the Caleskell Report 05:50:18 elliott: your function is just (.)(.) with that notation >:) 05:50:23 :D 05:50:26 fmap fmap fmap 05:50:27 :t (.)(.) 05:50:27 forall a b (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => f1 (a -> b) -> f1 (f a -> f b) 05:50:37 er or is it 05:50:51 lol 05:51:19 :t (.).(.) 05:51:20 forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b) 05:51:26 that's better 05:51:43 indeed it _is_ fmap fmap fmap 05:52:03 fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap 05:52:26 elliott: that reiterates after four fmaps 05:53:03 well eventually. i don't quite recall if it's immediately. 05:54:00 oklopol 05:54:03 oklo fucking pol 05:57:52 ais523: WIKI SPAM 05:58:15 * oerjan cackles disturbingly 06:01:15 oerjan: make oklopol a human 06:01:54 a recall reading somewhere that needing to sleep is a distinctly human characteristic 06:02:10 he was working on the wiki page 06:02:12 clearly not sleeping 06:02:24 but it is 8 am there :/ 06:03:33 well he hasn't saved the page 06:04:52 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28oklopol%29 06:05:07 OH NOES 06:05:33 i tried to make it roughly correct, but didn't really aim for readability or completeness. 06:05:41 you can fix the formatting 06:06:05 oklopol: you will be mercilessly haunted by graue for creating a new category. well, if he gave any sign of being alive, that is. 06:06:32 or perhaps not being alive would help with the haunting 06:06:37 :P 06:07:04 anyway, does that make sense to elliott after already knowing the language? 06:07:17 that much would be nice 06:07:19 oklopol: have you converted qs or ski 06:07:30 oklopol: don't call them commands 06:07:33 that's too impure for clue 06:07:37 i shouldn't, true 06:07:39 it's just 06:07:50 they didn't really have a name, so i just chose a consistent naming for the purpose of writing that. 06:07:57 but so 06:07:59 "betweem" :D 06:08:05 a clue is the set of stuff defining a single function 06:08:09 oklopol: i'll completely rewrite that, _tomorrow_ 06:08:19 go for it 06:08:28 oklopol: now gimme ski and qs without commas 06:08:43 oklopol: based on this ski http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1739965483.txt 06:09:03 elliott, \filename what is that syntax called? 06:09:09 i suppose an example should actually be a single [1] -> [2] thingie 06:09:14 variable: lambda... it's (\args -> value) 06:09:23 but then i need a name for { ... } 06:09:29 branch 06:09:31 i guess 06:09:37 oklopol: i'm wondering whether removing commas is actually nice 06:09:52 well i haven't seen code with that, it's just something i've been wanting to have 06:10:14 oklopol: do it to qs and a decision can be made 06:10:42 quicksort ~ {. [] -> [] } 06:10:42 quicksort ~ {. [1] -> [1] . [2] -> [2] } 06:10:42 quicksort ~ {:. [4 2 3 1] -> [1 2 3 4] 06:10:43 : [2 3 1] -> [1 2 3] 06:10:43 : [] -> [] 06:10:43 :. [2 5 4 1 5] -> [1 2 4 5 5] 06:10:43 : [1] -> [1] 06:10:44 : [5 4 5] -> [4 5 5] 06:10:44 :. [1 2 3] -> [1 2 3] 06:10:45 : [] -> [] 06:10:45 : [2 3] -> [2 3] } 06:10:46 quicksort ~ length; cdr; car; pivot left; pivot right; quicksort helper 06:10:47 you tell me that's not elegant as shit 06:10:49 Couldn't match expected type `IO b' 06:10:50 against inferred type `[String] -> IO ()' 06:10:54 _ -> mapM_ (\filename -> parseUnn filename >>= putStrLn) 06:10:56 oklopol: well sure 06:11:07 oklopol: what is this supposed to be? 06:11:14 oklopol: so um just want to check, we are standardising on my impl right :p 06:11:19 coppro: quicksort 06:11:26 since... it's incompatible with yours on just about every program now 06:11:28 oklopol: well obviously 06:11:30 due to renames and syntax 06:11:38 but what's with the funny syntax? 06:11:54 coppro: it's clue, if you don't understand it 06:11:54 then 06:11:55 elliott, what am I doing wrong with that? 06:11:55 well 06:11:59 i guess you're mentally retarded cuz 06:12:02 easiest language ever! 06:12:07 elliott: yes, removal of <> will be in clue 1.0 if that's okay by you 06:12:12 variable: you forgot to provide the list at the end 06:12:20 oklopol: 1.0? don't you mean 1.5 06:12:30 oh i forgot to credit myself, which i obviously want to do 06:12:35 oklopol: but i also mean the renaming of funcs and stuff 06:12:45 coppro: the syntax isn't funny 06:12:48 oklopol: can we call what i have clue 1.25 or at least close to it :p 06:12:51 oklopol: what language? 06:12:55 yeah the syntax isn't the funny part of clue 06:12:57 elliott, oh - I'm an idiot :-} 06:13:01 elliott: can't we just call it clue 1.0? 06:13:08 oklopol: but what you had was clue 1.0 06:13:13 i've been thinkin' of this as clue 1.25 06:13:15 but the changes are tiny :\ 06:13:26 oklopol: but it's also the OPTIMISATION 06:13:36 oklopol: clue 1.5 is when we get constants in branches, I know that much :) 06:13:45 oklopol: aww c'mon, let me have the 1.25 version number 06:13:46 oklopol: link 06:13:49 it's so shiny and cuddly? 06:13:49 OR the sensible branching system 06:14:13 oklopol: what's a sensible system 06:14:48 elliott, http://pastebin.com/zVZnPNHj - final version 06:14:52 elliott: the one we designed with ilkka, or mostly i defined 06:14:59 the obvious system. 06:15:00 oklopol: summarise? 06:15:08 oklopol: because i like the current system a lot 06:15:12 instead of having one branching function, separate things one at a time. 06:15:14 variable: yay :P 06:15:14 variable: wut 06:15:21 oklopol: i don't get it 06:15:24 oh 06:15:27 lol 06:15:34 oklopol: that sounds like clue 2.0 to me anyway, not 1.5 06:15:40 if you find something that's true for a certain subset of examples, but not the other ones, first branch on that 06:16:08 oklopol: theoretically that can be done already 06:16:12 oklopol: if you have add in the bag 06:16:13 coppro, what is with the wut ? 06:16:20 oklopol: since it can do addition of booleans... and also other stuff :) 06:16:24 oklopol: like multiplication of booleans! 06:16:27 or even 06:16:29 just cons them into a list 06:16:29 ofc 06:16:36 oklopol: should improper lists be allowed 06:16:37 i.e. cons(1 2) 06:16:38 i'm aware of that. 06:16:41 i say no 06:16:49 variable: nevermind 06:16:59 elliott: no, they should not 06:17:02 rite 06:17:14 there can be a tree type in the stdlib tho 06:17:22 RTYPOE TYPES TYPES 06:17:31 oklopol: can we ditch _? it can easily be coded in two lines 06:17:33 and it's an ugly name 06:17:39 and post-<>-removal it's basically never ever useful ever 06:17:42 certainly 06:17:44 hey 06:17:46 i just realized 06:18:04 you're like the secretary i've been talking about getting that does all the trivial stuff for me because i can't be assed 06:18:10 elliott, I have a new languag. You define a set of functions and set of conditionals for those functions. There is only global state and functions never make calls. instead once a function is started it goes to completion. When a functions completes the compiler chooses randomly from the set of functions whose conditionals are true 06:18:11 how much do you want me to pay ya 06:18:14 hi 06:18:15 sup 06:18:21 oklopol: 0, i find this fun 06:18:24 cheater00: inf 06:18:26 's good language 06:18:28 well okay, i guess 06:18:33 elliot: do you use be? 06:18:41 oklopol: well you can pay me £1000/day if you really want 06:18:43 cheater00: not available here. 06:18:52 cheater00: i'm planning on switching to bogons.net... 06:18:58 i wonder if i can reprogram my bebox to work with other isps 06:19:01 it's still dsl2 06:19:23 are you in uk 06:19:28 no germany 06:19:30 ah 06:19:33 i took my bebox with me :D 06:19:33 cheater00: just buy a linksys 06:19:35 :P 06:19:38 i'm cheap 06:19:39 all other routers are shit 06:19:48 someone should really fix "Quicksort: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt SKI: Well I don't have the link at hand but anyway." 06:19:59 and add corrected qs there 06:20:00 and ski 06:20:03 oklopol: well 06:20:08 new language -- define a set of functions and set of conditionals for those functions. There is only global state and functions never make calls or exit early. instead once a function is started it goes to completion. When a functions completes the compiler chooses randomly from the set of functions whose conditionals are true 06:20:09 oklopol: i will fix qs and ski i guess 06:20:13 variable: heh 06:20:18 variable: it's like clue but worse! :) 06:20:22 but then 06:20:23 so is every language 06:20:24 someone should really fix """ someone should really fix "Quicksort: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt SKI: Well I don't have the link at hand but anyway." """ 06:20:25 apart from clue 06:20:44 variable: it's like thue but worse 06:20:54 :D 06:20:58 it's like intercal but worse 06:21:06 no THU 06:21:42 " oklopol: i will fix qs and ski i guess" <<< thank you, although i did it already 06:21:43 oklopol: can i convert windows line endings to unix on all these files :D 06:21:48 unless you code with notepad i guess (wordpad can do it) 06:21:49 assuming it was just commas 06:22:05 also, i just did it too 06:22:07 and it's nicer i think 06:22:12 also re-indented ski 06:22:38 can you put them on the wiki AND link them here 06:22:38 ? 06:22:48 sure 06:22:56 i'll even put them on a wiki page, not vjn 06:23:22 k 06:23:27 oklopol: you forgot to mention how : = .. 06:23:32 ohhh 06:23:36 that's like the most important part! 06:24:36 oklopol: you are the weakest link. 06:26:40 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:26:43 lolwat 06:26:54 oklopol: examples added 06:26:59 elliott: i added that information on the page, in its rightful spot. 06:27:00 There is a spammer on the wiki... posting nice but irrelevent stuff. Not a singe link 06:27:13 "You certainly have some agreeable opinions and views. Your blog provides a fresh look at the subject." 06:27:13 oklopol: :D 06:28:34 or maybe that should be mentioned first 06:28:40 no :P 06:28:44 :d 06:28:50 oklopol: it's approaching 7 am so i'm going to sleep soon, but yeah, clue 06:28:52 isn't it great 06:28:57 it's fucking <3 06:29:16 oklopol: possibly your crowning achievement as far as esolangs go 06:29:28 oh sure the others have more interesting "theoretical" bases 06:29:30 yeah i suppose. 06:29:34 but do they obsolete the notion of programming itself?! 06:29:38 :D 06:29:49 oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.txt oh my god what is this, Clue 0.1? 06:29:51 it's so...retro 06:30:01 haha 06:30:07 omg i didn't remember 06:30:09 hahahahaa 06:30:15 oklopol: i actually kind of like it XD 06:30:29 oklopol: i have a suggestion 06:30:31 you know in the bag 06:30:32 #foo 06:30:34 why not drop the # 06:30:35 it's fugly. 06:30:44 then the bag becomes like... "things you need" 06:30:50 yep 06:30:55 that's another great idea 06:30:56 oklopol: will implement :P 06:31:03 yay 06:31:30 Sgeo: one theory is that such spammer bots are trying to put their links in some form field which doesn't actually exist 06:31:33 WHAT ELSE SHOULD IT HAVE TELMMETELMMEE :D 06:31:46 so that they don't show up in the resulting edit 06:31:55 oklopol: BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS 06:32:13 oklopol: stuff_to_clue what is this what what what 06:32:24 ? 06:32:34 ah tknz_helper_list looks useful 06:32:52 split by ";" ? :D 06:33:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:33:35 okay it seems it does something more than that 06:34:05 oklopol: # purged 06:34:21 you don't even mention helper objects in the article btw 06:34:25 Sgeo: if you google that "You certainly have some agreeable opinions and views" phrase you will find that the spam is also in comments on some sites that are not wikis at all 06:34:33 indeed i don't 06:34:54 as i said, didn't really aim for completeness, but yeah those should certainly be mentioned 06:35:18 website 06:35:24 Found one.. it links to website 06:35:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:35:28 examples fixed 06:35:28 :D 06:35:29 http://website/ 06:35:37 Sgeo: huh 06:35:42 http://www.knowyouaregod.com/blog/2010/03/27/13/ 06:36:07 Last comment 06:36:08 oklopol: this is the greatest language 06:36:24 Sgeo: it could be that is also just something being put in the wrong format for a field? 06:36:26 oklopol: i just wish, you know, coding in it didn't suck, because i'd totally use it for everything :D 06:37:03 Ah, here the spammers suceeded: http://www.universities-in-europe.com/7-unconventional-ways-to-pay-for-a-college-education.html 06:37:11 oklopol: so have you ever used emacs 06:37:30 * Sgeo falls in love with Clue 06:37:39 i think i've kinda used it a bit, at some point, but not really a relevant amount. 06:37:58 oklopol: if it had it so that if you changed the name of a clue function, all the lines in the branch would automatically get re-aligned 06:38:01 -shutup- Shut up about Clue! 06:38:05 how much more perfect would your life be 06:38:06 apart from 06:38:07 ENTIRELY 06:38:26 :)))))))))))) 06:38:32 oklopol: IS THAT "ENTIRELY" I HEAR 06:38:38 i believe i specifically forbade entirely as an answer 06:38:51 oklopol: why does stuff.py exist btw, it's not like clue.py isn't 700 lines :D 06:39:32 i... dunno? 06:39:41 it's not like there's any kind of logical separation 06:39:45 :D 06:40:09 i just felt like things should be in multiple files because that's how adults code 06:40:18 :D 06:40:23 i'm a big boy now and i'm going to use multiple files 06:40:28 yep 06:41:41 oklopol: should...multiplication be in the stdlib 06:41:43 i'm thinking yes? 06:41:43 I think PSOX was my only multi-file project thus far 06:41:44 mutual recursion is going to be a very big step, and i have no idea what the nice way to do it is 06:41:44 >.> 06:41:51 elliott: primitive. 06:41:57 mutual recursion is clue 1.75 isn'tit 06:41:58 *isn't it 06:42:01 or even 2.0 06:42:04 I was almost certainly under .. wai 06:42:06 there's no reason to make things slow just for the sake of making them slow 06:42:13 Was about to say under 18, but I must have been 18 06:42:18 Sgeo: in fact i vaguely recall reading that one antispam technique is to include an invisible form field which _only_ bots would fill out, as a honeypot 06:42:27 oklopol: call it "multiply"? 06:42:33 yes 06:42:45 done :) 06:42:52 also divide, and make it fail if result is not int! :P 06:43:01 i'm not sure that's very sensible 06:43:16 I can efel myself barely abl to type 06:43:24 just staring at the screen numbly 06:43:28 I don't know wh 06:43:31 y 06:43:32 Sgeo: being there 06:43:34 oklopol: 06:43:35 ---- factorial 06:43:36 [#0] 06:43:36 | 0 => 1 06:43:38 | 4 => multiply(#0 @(pred(#0))) 06:43:40 :D 06:43:42 that's hilarious 06:43:44 because 06:43:46 factorial(4) doesn't even result in 24 06:43:48 which was my testcase 06:43:51 factorial ~ {. 0 -> 1 } 06:43:52 factorial ~ {:. 4 -> 24 06:43:54 : 3 -> 6 06:43:56 : 2 -> 2 } 06:43:58 factorial ~ multiply; pred; 1 06:44:00 ::: factorial(10) 06:44:00 Downloading... 06:44:00 ValueError: unknown url type: factorial(10) :( 06:44:02 AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'isbase' 06:44:04 ::: factorial(4) 06:44:04 Downloading... 06:44:04 ValueError: unknown url type: factorial(4) :( 06:44:06 AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'isbase' 06:44:08 oklopol: clue.py bug? 06:44:10 oklopol: i think definitely 06:44:20 :o 06:44:28 oh that's umm 06:44:48 yeah that's kinda a clue.py bug. i noticed it earlier but i didn't feel like fixing it 06:44:51 lol 06:44:54 well i fixed it in factorial 06:44:58 that means none of your branches has been chosen as the default one 06:45:00 omg 06:45:01 :D 06:45:08 oklopol: guess what happens when i deprive factorial of 1 06:45:10 but that's an easy fix 06:45:12 ? 06:45:15 ---- factorial 06:45:15 [#0] 06:45:15 | 0 => multiply(pred(#0) pred(#0)) 06:45:16 | _ => multiply(#0 @(pred(#0))) 06:45:18 :DDD 06:45:20 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 06:45:23 clue is anti-cubic 06:46:09 btw your factorial definition is very weird 06:46:18 howso 06:46:22 did you copy paste it from your fibonacci program 06:46:28 no 06:46:29 why 06:46:33 but yeah 06:46:33 i realise 06:46:36 i don't need the extra : 06:46:37 i separated it out 06:46:37 can i have your current version? 06:46:46 stack-hogging factorial ~ {. 0 -> 1 } 06:46:46 stack-hogging factorial ~ {:. 4 -> 24 06:46:46 : 3 -> 6 06:46:48 :. 3 -> 6 06:46:50 : 2 -> 2 } 06:46:50 yeah, it should still work that way, but you need another base case 06:46:52 stack-hogging factorial ~ multiply; pred; 0 06:46:54 gonna do tail-recursive now 06:46:56 AND THEN SLEEP 06:47:12 because it will actually do the recursion, just ignore the result :D 06:47:24 or... i guess it might use it as well, but then it would prolly be wrong 06:48:17 elliott: 06:48:19 if default==None: 06:48:19 default=clue.branches[len(clue.branches)-1] 06:48:23 in erm 06:48:38 call clue, instead of what was @ if default == None before 06:48:51 that should maybe fix things. 06:49:02 MAYBE NOT, HOWEVER. 06:49:08 oklopol: you do that :P 06:49:12 meanwhile cluetest.py has hung for me 06:49:15 i did, but my version is oooooooooold 06:49:26 oklopol: you can fix it in mine tomorrow, double fun 06:49:29 can i get all your files 06:49:37 and i'm not here tomorro 06:49:37 w 06:49:43 oklopol: well 06:49:46 oklopol: if you promise not to like 06:49:48 rewrite them all 06:49:49 because i'd get sad 06:49:55 i won't rewrite anything 06:50:11 just change those two lines, and maybe test out the current version on the examples 06:50:52 oklopol: does vjn have a file-uploady 06:51:02 yes, the filebin, but i doubt it actually works 06:51:06 link :P 06:51:15 oklopol: btw cluetest is the repl, "python cluetest.py file1 file2 file3", very useful for testing, see its source for more 06:51:26 and i don't know where it is, it seems 06:51:29 oklopol: don't change cluetest or cluebot, though, I want to factor out the luatre code into a separate file rather than copypasting it 06:51:34 before anything else changes 06:52:01 factorial loop ~ {. 0 6 -> 6 06:52:01 . 0 24 -> 24 } 06:52:01 factorial loop ~ {:. 3 1 -> 6 06:52:03 : 2 3 -> 6 06:52:04 i'm not going to change anything. 06:52:05 :. 1 6 -> 6 06:52:07 : 0 6 -> 6 } 06:52:09 factorial loop ~ multiply; pred 06:52:11 factorial ~ {. 0 -> 1 06:52:13 . 3 -> 26 06:52:15 . 4 -> 24 } 06:52:17 factorial ~ factorial loop; 1 06:52:19 why does this hang clue? 06:52:34 maybe because of . 3 -> 26 06:53:06 uploading clue 06:53:13 oklopol: oops :D 06:53:22 oklopol: http://rapidshare.com/files/441572099/clue.zip 06:53:28 elliott: has your superdrive arrived? 06:53:31 oklopol: feel free to correct it to 3 -> 6 locally in numplay.clue :P 06:53:34 cheater00: no, about monday or tuesday 06:53:59 oklopol: btw i would like it if the implementation became properly tail recursive even though python doesn't really allow that 06:54:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:54:14 oklopol: I might make it compile to something that isn't a tangle of lambdas in a day or so 06:54:26 because right now tail recursive code is useless :D 06:54:32 elliott: that's inacceptable 06:54:36 cheater00: what is 06:54:43 yes, was thinking of mentioning that, but realized you aren't an idiot 06:54:46 this time delay 06:54:50 cheater00: ...why? 06:55:23 elliott: compiling to python bytecode shouldn't be very hard 06:55:27 i mean directly 06:55:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:55:42 oklopol: yeah but also python bytecode is kinda gross 06:55:45 oklopol: maybe x86 asm :> 06:56:12 java bytecode would be nice. just because. 06:56:29 everyone else is doing it! 06:56:37 oklopol: well it would certainly be fast. 06:56:39 probably 06:56:44 elliott: because i want you to finally stop using macintosh operating system 06:56:53 cheater00: i've used debian for the past months and ubuntu before that... 06:56:57 i haven't touched os x in like a year 06:57:06 oklopol: python bytecode has the advantage of being able to do reply stuff easy 06:57:08 *easier 06:57:08 YOU HAVE BECOME UNPURE 06:57:13 oklopol: and it's like... fast enough :P 06:57:33 what are you doing with python? 06:58:06 cheater00: Clue 06:58:12 what's that? 06:58:12 the most intuitive language possible 06:58:17 why? 06:58:32 just give the results, and the compiler infers all the code! 06:58:35 cheater00: because you write your programs by simply listing a few example inputs and outputs, and show how they recurse 06:58:35 it's THAT simple! 06:58:40 then there's sortofatinylineofhintsbutwhocaresaboutthat 06:58:44 and it gives you your function! 06:58:49 so it's tdd? 06:58:54 quicksort: oklopol: python 06:58:55 what's tddddd 06:58:56 ... 06:58:59 quicksort: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28oklopol%29/Quicksort 06:59:00 cheater00: edd 06:59:04 cheater00: example driven despair 06:59:10 oklopol: test driven dragon 06:59:22 elliott: how does it know what to infer 06:59:26 oklopol: i'ma remove greater than? from quicksort and use is greater than? elsewhere 'cuz it's in stdlib 06:59:27 cheater00: cleverly! 06:59:40 every finite sequence has an infinity of possible continuations 07:00:00 i don't know what test driven development is, but i assume it's something totally gay 07:00:07 done 07:00:22 cheater00: just read http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28oklopol%29/Quicksort and absorb the simple 07:00:43 yeah it's not really even an esolang, we should be talking in #serious_programming 07:00:48 Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1021&t=124541 very nice!! 07:00:51 elliott: this sounds like one of those mysteries 07:00:53 oklopol: absolutely 07:01:16 like, how does science putty stay hard yet always able to become malleable 07:01:28 Vorpal: this is nicer than painterly 07:01:41 or, how do rice krispies keep crackling and popping?? 07:01:47 Vorpal: winner of the texture pack compo :P 07:01:59 Vorpal: also nice: http://www.eldpack.com/ 07:02:24 oklopol: so, clue self-interp 07:03:17 oklopol: you will like this http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=98896 but i don't think it'll work on smp 07:03:26 the quicksort in clue is really truly the best quicksort ever 07:03:48 in fact i know someone who might be very interested in doing something like this with python bytecode 07:03:53 or even make it generate python 07:04:08 elliott: wanna make me a texture pack where all the blocks are just drawn a thick border 07:04:21 oklopol: how does clue know what to infer 07:04:24 oklopol: i did a almost-all-solid-colour pack but it was beyond fugly 07:04:27 and maybe slightly different hues of black 07:04:29 cheater00: cleverly 07:04:32 cheater00: and it does generate python 07:04:34 well, sorta 07:04:36 that does not answer my question 07:04:47 anyway people sounds like other people sounds scary, they'd probably want to add a way to call functions too 07:04:49 explain to me the procedure 07:05:03 cheater00: http://www.vjn.fi/clue.rar see clue.py 07:05:03 please thanks 07:05:07 glue function in particular 07:05:10 has kinda changed but mostly optimisations 07:05:12 well i can explain the procedure i use in my implementation 07:05:13 that'll give you a good idea 07:05:17 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 07:05:18 argh rar 07:05:28 why must i execute non-gpl code for this 07:05:42 page no find eror 404! 07:05:42 A pages you tried to acess does no exist on this servers. 07:05:42 Copyright 2007 by VJN. All Rights deserted. v: 0.9 07:05:49 cheater00: that's because you're bad 07:05:56 at least i can stay gpl for another couple of minutes 07:06:00 cheater00: http://rapidshare.com/files/441572099/clue.zip 07:06:00 cheater00: it just brute forces 07:06:02 code isn't gpl'd :P 07:06:05 oklopol: well sorta. 07:06:13 if it literally just brute forced it'd never work. 07:06:14 elliott: neither is rar 07:06:21 cheater00: http://rapidshare.com/files/441572099/clue.zip 07:06:26 cheater00: dos line endings because oklopol 07:06:32 can't you use something sane like dropbox? 07:06:41 cheater00: i would just host it myself except my web server is sort of not on. 07:06:46 i normally use filebin.ca 07:06:47 but it's down 07:06:47 again 07:06:58 dropbox requires an account and is bullshit software i don't need irritating me...like all software 07:06:58 dropboxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxy 07:07:02 oklopol: do you edit with notepad or wordpad, can't really imagine you using anything else 07:07:04 it's actually pretty nifty 07:07:15 elliott: sorry, idle 07:07:17 i like the tools they provide and they're under steady maintenance 07:07:29 oklopol: ah good, i can convert to unix file endings 07:07:32 cheater00: also non-gpl 07:07:32 oklopol: you're not using vim?????????????? 07:07:40 cheater00: fuck you, oklopol can do what the fuck he wants 07:08:01 elliott: i run it inside a VM so that i don't get infected with non-gpl-aids 07:08:11 elliott: no, oklopol cannot do anything. 07:08:20 oklopol: thing i wanted to type: rm *.pyc 07:08:20 * cheater00 casts a spell of non-doing on oklopol 07:08:24 oklopol: thing i typed: rm *.py 07:08:28 :D 07:08:40 cheater00: it's really hard to just quickly summarize how exactly clue works 07:08:45 * elliott downloads his own zip 07:08:50 * elliott hyperventilates 07:08:51 i guess it's a good illustration if i explain how recursion is done 07:09:11 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:09:16 phew, it still runs 07:09:18 -!- luatre has joined. 07:09:19 oklopol: so you give clue some basic rules and some data and infers some rule that fits the data? 07:09:48 you give is an input -> output pair, and you tell it all the subinputs and suboutputs, which would be done recursively, then subinputs are computed from input, and output from suboutputs. this gives you a rule for computing recursive cases 07:09:53 cheater00: yes 07:09:58 that's the idea 07:10:12 it's the details that are interesting, since they make that feasible 07:10:20 "feasible" 07:10:24 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3593752799.txt 07:10:24 Downloading... 07:10:25 Compiling, just a minute... 07:10:25 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (pivot condition 2) :( 07:10:28 given two different implementations of clue, how do they ensure they infer the same rule? 07:10:31 oklopol 07:10:32 what 07:10:42 cheater00: add more examples, and they'll probably have the same rule 07:10:45 no way really 07:10:55 oklopol: you can do it 07:11:00 Why haven't I heard of Fantom before? 07:11:05 do what? 07:11:08 Sgeo: you have, it was called Fan then 07:11:16 elliott, I haven't heard of Fan either 07:11:18 oklopol: you just need to make a canonical way of traversing the space of rules. 07:11:26 eh 07:11:29 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:11:30 of course i can do that 07:11:34 -!- luatre has joined. 07:11:36 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3593752799.txt 07:11:36 Downloading... 07:11:36 Compiling, just a minute... 07:11:36 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (pivot condition 2) :( 07:11:38 why would i do that 07:12:02 that's silly 07:12:04 try: 07:12:04 newobj=applier(fun,subsetobjs) 07:12:04 if newobj==None:continue 07:12:05 except: 07:12:07 continue 07:12:09 oklopol: this. this is the worst. 07:12:11 can i remove that 07:12:17 oklopol: to have causality 07:12:21 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:12:26 -!- luatre has joined. 07:12:27 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3593752799.txt 07:12:27 Downloading... 07:12:28 Compiling, just a minute... 07:12:28 TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable :( 07:12:34 whatttt 07:13:02 File "/Users/ehird/clue/stuff.py", line 47, in car 07:13:02 def car(l):return l[0] 07:13:02 TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable 07:13:04 oklopol: aha 07:13:06 need to return none 07:13:37 Duration literals? 07:13:47 oklopol: should isempty 3 be None 07:14:01 cheater00: i don't really care what you think, it's a stupid idea to order the search in the spec, because then compilers would have to check that whole path, and in general that's impossible. 07:14:02 Never seen anything like those before, although due to Factor's "syntax", factor may as well 07:14:04 i mean 07:14:07 impossible to shortcut 07:14:15 it's easier to let people compile however they want 07:14:19 oklopol: yes? re isempty 07:14:51 oklopol: not order the search, but canonicize the traversal 07:14:56 cheater00: it's not even specified that the same program should work the same way when compiled twice on the same compiler 07:15:07 cheater00: what's the difference? 07:15:12 oklopol: what should cdr([]) be? 07:15:14 error again? 07:15:17 elliott: error 07:15:23 for example if you have a labirynth and you're traversing it, one way to canonicize it is to say "turn right first" 07:15:33 Fantom is failing to turn me on 07:15:34 you do NOT have to search all paths to do that 07:15:36 oklopol: you will be glad to know, making stuff that should be errors into errors makes clue break the stack 07:15:37 yeah, that's what i meant by ordering the search 07:15:40 It's not turning me off, but it's... boring 07:15:49 Sgeo thinks about languages with his penis 07:16:06 oklopol: you don't have to pre-compute the complete space for that. 07:16:13 cheater00: no, but you can't use another strategy then, and it's not the spec's job to contain the best strategy. 07:16:15 oklopol: it's insane to think that 07:16:22 oklopol: you can 07:16:29 oklopol: just have a specifier 07:16:38 Fantom : C# :: C# : Java 07:16:41 From what I can tell 07:16:43 no you can't, you'd have to prove that it's the first thing you'd've found with the strategy given in the spec. 07:16:59 oklopol: you can input your own strategies. 07:17:11 oklopol: otherwise the language is really infertile 07:17:18 oklopol: well... remind me to fix what i broke in the zip impl tomorrow. dunno what. :(. also: remind me to make that auto-realigning emacs mode. in fact just copy this to a file and restate it to me. 07:17:23 oklopol: additionally, please hold on to your old code 07:17:27 cheater00: you are infertile 07:17:27 so i can correct the current code with it tomorrow 07:17:30 oklopol: okay? 07:17:35 oklopol: i am very fertile 07:17:40 cheater00: you do not understand clue 07:17:46 elliott: i do 07:17:52 you do not 07:17:56 "This means non-nullable is the default unless otherwise specified:" 07:17:59 elliott: you do not understand what i understand about clue 07:17:59 ! 07:18:00 That's.. good 07:18:04 That's a good thing 07:18:06 elliott: sure 07:18:12 oklopol: thx 07:18:13 bai 07:18:15 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:18:18 bye 07:18:23 It's like "Improve this here, improve that there" 07:19:13 oklopol: i think being able to input your own strategies would really be the best eva 07:19:24 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:20:27 cheater00: it would be nice, yes, although possibly the topic of another language. what would be retarded is to write "if there is an implementation of function f with these properties in the ball of size k, then this implementation should be chosen". 07:20:55 or having in the spec that you always follow the right hand wall 07:21:05 for example if you have a labirynth and you're traversing it, one way to canonicize it is to say "turn right first" <-- except this will cause you to miss parts for most labyrinths. which might be analogously relevant for clue as well... 07:21:05 well you define your strategies and put em in a lib 07:21:14 and just say "use X" 07:21:16 or "use Y" 07:21:24 or "use-search-manhattan" 07:21:24 as i said, if you added a whole strategy concept to the language, yes, that would be nice. 07:22:02 oerjan: no, you would not miss them, unless they're unimportant. 07:22:13 oerjan: the idea is simply to get to the other side. 07:22:26 oerjan: backtracking is implied. 07:22:35 huh 07:22:49 what does that mean, the right hand algo doesn't have backtracking 07:22:55 oerjan: it is not a goal to visit every square. 07:23:10 oklopol: imagine two labirynths, one is to your right, one is to your left 07:23:17 oklopol: the one to the right has no exit. 07:23:36 and it has a loop. 07:23:44 cheater00: sorry i somehow read that as "turn right always" :D 07:23:49 you have to backtrack 07:25:15 that's not part of the right hand algo, but yes, you're right, the right hand algorithm doesn't solve all labyrinth related problems. just like it doesn't solve the knapsack problem. 07:25:54 oklopol: i misread him, he didn't actually say the right hand algorithm 07:26:05 indeed he didn't 07:26:08 i misread him too 07:26:14 was wondering what that comment of yours was about 07:26:27 cheater00: i'm sorry as well 07:27:28 anyway it's a good thing that programs work differently on different compilers 07:27:45 the point is to put in enough examples that that doesn't happen, which isn't all that many. 07:28:31 this is meant to be a *practical* language, for your everyday programming needs. 07:28:49 it compiles quicksort in less time than it'd take you to eat a sandwich 07:29:23 and if you compile your programs to ski, you can write ANY PROGRAM POSSIBLE 07:29:23 oklopol: you haven't been paying attention in maths class have you 07:29:29 how so? 07:29:42 every finite sequence has an infinity of possible continuations 07:29:43 didn't you insult my math skills once before? 07:29:51 quite possible :p 07:29:51 yeah that's the most retarded comment i've ever heard 07:29:58 um 07:30:00 seriously 07:30:05 it's mathematically proven 07:30:20 * Sgeo learns of the existence of Noop 07:30:20 so the only thingi i'll answer is NO U 07:30:22 i'm going to stop talking to you now 07:30:29 no u. 07:32:02 but anyway it's clear that you can't continue the sequence 7 5 3 2 1 in anyway for instance, since the next one would have to be a prime number smaller than 1, and one doesn't exist 07:32:04 ARGH 07:32:05 q.e.d. 07:32:12 *any way 07:32:14 SO MANY AWESOME SEEMING LANGUAGES OUT THERE 07:32:25 it can be mathematically proven that there are no prime numbers smaller than 1 07:32:32 let me prove that rigorously: 07:32:51 let p be a prime number that's smaller than 1; then, it must be 0, but 0 is not a prime number 07:33:13 also it could be negative, but then it's not a natural number, and the sequence must be over natural numbers 07:33:16 q.e.d. 07:33:41 so i guess you should take your crazy theories elsewhere 07:34:05 riddle time: imagine there are 2 doors..one leads to heaven (actually the place you want to go), the other leads to hell.. in front of each stands a guardian, one is telling the truth, and the other one lies (you don't know who lies).. u have only one(!) question to find out which door leads leads to paradise; what question would you ask? (if you already know the answer, be nice and let the others take a chance) hf! 07:34:07 oklopol: 1 IS NOT A PRIME NUMBER 07:34:11 oerjan: oh shit 07:34:20 so actually even THAT sequence doesn't exist? 07:34:26 INDEED 07:34:27 damn...... 07:34:31 this is kinda creepy 07:34:32 i mean 07:34:34 you can see it there 07:34:40 but it... doesn't exist 07:34:44 8| 07:34:56 math can be pretty counter-intuitive sometimes 07:35:00 oklopol: you could also drop the 2 07:35:19 have you heard that theorem that if you take a ball, and an infinite amount of boxes, then you can build another ball by making the correct choice? 07:35:21 but that would be an odd thing to do 07:35:33 :D 07:35:56 or was it 5 balls 07:36:24 cheater00: how did it go again, i'm a bit rusty on my advanced complex measure theory? 07:36:35 oklopol: it rings a bell. do you know what's an anagram of banach-tarski? 07:36:47 well? 07:36:59 banach-tarski banach-tarski 07:37:08 :D 07:37:14 that's awesome 07:38:42 hagb4rd: sorry, but if there is anyone here who _doesn't_ know the answer, we'll have to ban him for being insufficiently geeky. 07:38:53 lol 07:39:04 nevermind 07:39:44 * oklopol just went "oh that simple thing" and went on with his life, now wonders if he could actually do it 07:41:19 okay yeah i got it 07:41:30 was slightly deeper than i expected 07:41:47 i didn't know it though 07:43:07 hmm right, there actually is a trivial solution 07:43:09 http://xkcd.com/246/ and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html 07:43:11 was kinda wondering 07:43:36 (also http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightsAndKnaves with the usual warning) 07:43:40 "true?" 07:43:47 "yep" vs "nope" 07:43:53 sorry for spoiler 07:43:59 oerjan, you havent just gooled the answer, did you?^^ 07:44:05 bad bad oerjan 07:44:11 hagb4rd: i ruined it 07:44:19 gave away the whole answer 07:44:21 hagb4rd: of course not, i was trying to find that oots comic from before 07:44:38 i liked it 07:44:49 ahh 07:45:06 but you also don't know which one stands at which door :D 07:45:28 :DDDDD 07:45:34 no you dont :> 07:45:46 so fun, let's try again 07:46:37 btw the tvtropes page _does_ contain spoilers. in fact several options. 07:46:54 http://emerginglangs.com/speakers/ 07:46:58 I want to learn all of these 07:46:59 Right now 07:47:12 Well, not all of them 07:47:20 okay so just use the fact both operations are involutions 07:47:32 i mean id and not 07:47:33 Dalvik isn't even a lang.. well, I guess it kind of ... huh? 07:47:40 "if you asked yourself, ...." 07:49:12 or, route through both gates 07:49:29 hagb4rd: i am currently mind-boggling at oklopol apparently being _two_ geeky to find a simple solution :D 07:49:31 really it's a trivial problem once you put it down formally 07:49:35 *_too_ 07:49:54 oerjan: my solutions are g^2 and gh 07:50:02 can you get away with just one operation? 07:50:04 Now I'm looking at ooc 07:50:06 that's a danger of geekiness, you see too many options 07:50:23 its not that simple.. to be honest.. i spent hours on it 07:50:26 tell me in pm if you can't tell here 07:51:19 to be honest i've known this puzzle for so long that i cannot even remember if i solved it before reading the answer or not (probably not, to be honest) 07:51:36 i mean it's likely those aren't the simplest solutions when you actually translate them to english, but i don't think that's a very interesting problem. 07:56:56 I think ooc has more marketers than program language designers 07:57:30 "Another is set in Transylvania, where people can be either sane or insane (insane people believe untruths) and either a human or a vampire. Humans speak the truth and vampires lie all the time, so an insane human speaks untruths he believes while an insane vampire speaks truths he does not believe in." 07:57:48 Maybe I'm wrong 07:57:59 But the documentation is so... obtuse 07:58:08 I'll look at it agian later I gues 07:58:54 oerjan: doesn't a true mathematician forget all problems, and solve them from scratch every time 07:59:09 i hear neumann started all his proofs from epsilons 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:05 COULD BE 08:00:32 it would be nice if that was a characteristic of a true mathematician, because i still keep proving equivalences between definitions of continuity daily 08:00:50 oklopol: i certainly used to do such things 08:00:56 not so much these days 08:01:09 well, i'm working on finite things now, but usually 08:02:08 were you just like me at 21? 08:02:53 exam in 24 hours, fuckfuckfuck 08:02:55 reproving theorems in my head? yes. 08:03:03 i meant in every way 08:03:25 being paid to do math has made me a really lazy studier, i feel like i'm above taking courses 08:03:28 :D 08:03:48 NOTHING YOU CAN TEACH ME. 08:03:49 i have the impression you're considerably more extroverted than me. but that might not be something which shows perfectly over irc. 08:04:16 i was recently told by a professor that i might enjoy the master's thesis seminar because i'm so extroverted 08:04:39 *g 08:06:29 and once a guy was really surprised i was a mathematician because i actually talked to people 08:06:53 so i wonder what kinda mathematicians he's met because i mostly played the guitar when he visited afair 08:06:55 oklopol: i certainly started dropping a number of lectures after a few years. especially early morning ones. 08:07:44 master in maths, social engineerer, star-author and sex-symbol :> 08:07:48 i've started not doing homework, and improvising a solution if asked (they choose a random dude to present their solution) 08:08:33 sex-symbol? :D 08:08:45 yea 08:08:54 lemme draw you one 08:09:01 oklopol: i think he deduces that from the fact you seem to actually get laid 08:09:12 another translation bug?? 08:09:14 8=====D (|) 08:09:21 if we are to believe you 08:09:24 hagb4rd: no i don't think so 08:09:28 k 08:09:34 oerjan: ah, the nerd definition 08:10:28 actually not so much lately, since i broke up with the gf, although we've been talking about being sex-buddies with an ex 08:11:22 (we broke up because of artistic differences) 08:11:32 i _guess_ all the porn talk could be a factor as well 08:12:01 :D 08:12:12 oklopol: you mean she didn't want to make a porn movie with you? how unartistic. 08:12:24 yes! 08:12:38 actually she didn't, although i'm not entirely sure that was a factor 08:13:17 so now that elliott is gone 08:13:31 there's really NOTHING for me here, i wonder if i should actually start studying soon. 08:13:46 it's just there's a fuckload of theorems : d 08:13:53 i mean a true and serious fuckload 08:14:05 and it's scary. 08:14:07 hundreds of thousands, i hear 08:14:20 lol 08:14:47 do you know green's theorem 08:14:51 erm 08:14:58 in semigroup theory :P 08:15:08 no i'm a bit green on that 08:15:44 maybe we should kick&ban oklopol, until he mad the grade :p 08:15:50 (i thought you meant in analysis, and was going to complain that i missed a pun opportunity) 08:16:21 :D 08:16:28 23hours and a hald 08:16:31 hagb4rd: tried that with Sgeo, didn't work 08:16:53 hagb4rd: also i need to sleep some part of that :D 08:17:14 10 am now, the exam is actually at 9 am tomorrow prolly 08:17:37 it turned out eventually that he only got to doing his homework once he got back on the channel. well i guess the swiftly approaching extended deadline might have had a part as well. 08:17:43 there's maybe 10 pages that contain stuff i couldn't just crap out of my wrist in the exam 08:18:35 oerjan: green's is when you define xLy <=> Sx = Sy and xRy symmetrically 08:18:44 and then H = intersection of those 08:19:16 then a H class is a group iff it contains an identity iff it is closed under multiplication of at least two of its elements 08:19:32 crazy shit huh? 08:19:40 there's a lot more where that came from 08:21:03 well aren't you gonna say "woooooooooow" 08:21:20 oh god, i'm so tired. 08:21:35 wooow 08:21:42 if i go to sleep now, and sleep my usual 10-12 hours, i'll still have like 12 hours left 08:21:43 not really, it doesn't precisely sound surprising 08:22:41 oklopol: in my case i would be more worried about actually being able to be awake tomorrow... 08:23:02 there are many examples of complicated proofs in the literature which prove a small subcase of that 08:23:14 but i guess your sleeping rhythm isn't quite as fragile as mine 08:23:19 why is it not surprising, maybe i don't understand it? 08:23:42 i don't have a sleeping rhythm. 08:23:52 i just sleep when ever i happen to 08:23:55 oklopol: well i guess it could be harder to prove than i think 08:24:03 *whenever 08:24:23 thank god for saying that, i actually took the papers here 08:24:34 *you said taht 08:24:36 *that 08:25:29 the first iff looks like it should be nearly trivial, at least 08:25:35 hmm 08:25:58 hmm indeed 08:26:10 don't spoil it, i'm sure you're faster than me 08:26:25 hm wait is that an identity for H or for the whole semigroup? 08:26:32 for H 08:28:15 yeah then that is trivial 08:28:43 right to left, why does tehre need to be an inverse in H? 08:28:46 *there 08:29:08 because ee = e, so Sx and xS both contain e 08:29:27 or wait hm 08:29:35 Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1021&t=124541 very nice!! <-- quite, but the inventory screen looks weird. 08:29:36 darn 08:29:40 xS and Sx of course contain e, because they are that H class 08:29:53 so? that "inverse" might not be in H 08:30:00 just realized that :D 08:30:46 alrighty, it's possible that there's a very simple proof, and that it's on three pages just for clarity, there's a very nice lemma that clarifies how things jump between these classes 08:30:58 before this 08:31:01 XD 08:31:15 was i too formal? 08:31:20 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hagb4rd|afk. 08:31:24 too sarcastic rather 08:31:46 i was being serious :D 08:32:38 deducing something from "closed under multiplication of at least two of its elements" looks somewhat harder anyway 08:32:41 anyway it's inverse semigroups that are the main point of this course, do you remember that semigroup problem we tried to solve in the fall? 08:32:51 vaguely 08:33:14 inverse semigroups are that kinda stuff 08:33:25 you define inverses without an identity 08:33:33 ah yeah 08:33:36 like forallx, x = xyx for unique x 08:33:41 *for all x, 08:33:42 xx'x = x and x'xx' = x' 08:34:00 err right, that for unique is inverse semigroup i think 08:34:24 they turn out to have all kinds of crazy properties 08:34:39 ...which i don't understand at all 08:34:44 :( 08:35:00 i suppose i did at some point, but now i don't even remember what the trace is 08:35:31 we were fooling around with idempotents and proving there was only one and thus it was a group under some condition 08:36:27 * oerjan doesn't recall any trace either 08:36:36 -!- marcules has joined. 08:36:42 What worked for me was not sleeping for 48 hours 08:36:49 * marcules schaut zu hagb4rd|afk :> 08:36:54 S is a group <=> forall x exactly one y: x = x x'x 08:37:00 was it that one? 08:37:05 ;) 08:37:14 The effects of which are still with me 08:37:16 then also exactly one y: x x' idempotent 08:37:26 In the form of staying up and night and sleeping during the day 08:37:33 *x = xyx 08:37:41 *xy idempotent 08:38:13 oklopol: your spelling seems to imply you need sleep 08:38:16 i'm sure it was the first one 08:38:20 oerjan: yeah. 08:38:46 when reading these proofs, the most important thing is being able to retain the about 10 things they name, and remember exactly what equations were proved sofar 08:39:05 and that's like the exact opposite of the being able to do nothing with my brain state that i'm in atm 08:39:28 heeey shoppe is open, maybe i should go buy some pizza, and watch the cleveland show 08:39:32 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 08:39:51 this early on a sunday? 08:39:56 -!- dilapan has joined. 08:40:01 i think it's 10-10 every day 08:40:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:40:12 hi 08:40:15 it's a kinda special shoppe 08:40:25 BTW, elliott really was trying to login as me 08:40:29 because it's *the* shoppe of the student village i'm living in 08:40:29 -NickServ- 3 failed logins since last login. 08:40:31 -NickServ- Last failed attempt from: elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott on Jan 08 23:26:33 2011. 08:40:35 most shops in norway don't keep open on sundays, by law 08:40:48 ones under 400m^2 can stay open here 08:40:52 small ones are exempted 08:40:53 hey dilapan :> 08:41:01 and can in general stay open whenever they want 08:41:10 sounds similar 08:42:40 oklopol: there was a great battle here in the early 90s between shops and gasoline stations where the former had to obey closing restrictions but not the latter and the latter started getting more and more shop-like groceries and the like 08:42:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:43:48 Ok, the ANI tutorial reads like an esolang spec 08:43:51 after trying for a while to distinguish based on what they sold the politicians eventually gave up and changed it to being based on shop area instead 08:43:57 lol and then shops started selling gasoline 08:44:09 oklopol: well some tried 08:44:13 really? :D 08:44:17 fun 08:44:24 although not for that reason i think 08:45:13 there was a grocery chain (rema 1000) who tried adding gasoline outlets. this was after what i described above though. 08:45:27 s/outlets/pumps/ 08:45:56 i think they sold them off after a while 08:46:30 anyway here in norway 7/eleven tends to be open 24/7 08:47:32 (they're actually franchised by the rema 1000 people) 08:48:03 well here in trondheim at least, don't know if it's true in smaller places 08:48:28 How is ANI not an esolang? 08:48:31 * Sgeo_ mindboggles 08:49:16 i don't know about ANI but we used to require some _intent_ to be esoteric 08:49:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:50:04 I'm sure ANI is perfectly usable for ordinary applications 08:50:05 there was this BancStar thing which was completely insane but which wasn't considered esoteric since it was actually used in some industry 08:50:23 or something like that 08:50:38 It's just.. now I know what it feels like for an imperative programmer to jump headfirst into functional programming 08:50:43 Utterly, utterly bizarre 08:51:00 oerjan, do you know any dataflow languages? 08:51:04 Because that's what ANI is 08:52:04 oerjan: multiplication from left preserves H classes, so if two things have their product in a H-class, you also know their H-classes go into that H-class 08:52:14 hm i don't _know_ any, but i've heard something. sisal rings a bell. 08:52:14 this property of H is easy to prove, although a bit verbose 08:52:35 that's xy \in H => H group 08:52:38 which is the hard part i think 08:52:57 or wait 08:53:17 Oh, I think it's called anic 08:54:17 maybe it's not that simple bleh 08:54:33 um H classes are sort of left-right symmetric aren't they 08:55:02 sure 08:55:22 i specified left because at that precise moment i wasn't sure i wouldn't need to talk about right as well 08:55:33 but now it looks kinda useless, yes 08:55:51 i certainly don't see why multiplication from left preserves H classes 08:59:18 not actually true: what's true is if x, y \in S, xLy, and sx=y, s'y=x, then 1) (s*) : R_x -> R_y is bij., (s'*) : R_y -> R_x is bij 2) (s*) and (s'*) are inverses 3) zLsz for all z \in R_x 4) u, v \in R_x => (uHv <=> suHsv) 08:59:22 :D 08:59:36 argh 08:59:43 the last one 08:59:45 says 08:59:48 wait 09:00:12 ANIC gives me a headache 09:00:17 It looks awesome, but 09:01:08 oklopol: um but S is not necessary a monoid so how do you know there is an s such that sx=y? or is that an assumption? 09:01:12 if xLy, and sx = y, then multiplication by s from left is actually a bijection from R_x to R_y 09:01:14 that's the first one 09:01:30 and that's easy because s' is its inverse 09:01:42 oerjan: oh shit sorry 09:01:45 i have the wrong definition 09:02:04 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:02:05 xLy <=> S^1 x = S^1 y 09:02:15 where S^1 is guess 09:02:29 S or identity? 09:02:41 it's S + identity 09:02:51 that's a monoid 09:03:00 hm 09:03:15 if there already is an identity, then S^1 = S 09:03:15 :D 09:03:22 crazy i know! 09:03:37 that's i think equivalent to x \in S y and y \in S x, no? 09:03:58 yes, therefore i could implement this relation with s and s' 09:04:04 I don't even know the name of the thing 09:04:06 so yeah that was implicit up there 09:04:08 Is it ANI or ANIC? 09:04:46 hm except... if S x does not contain x what then 09:05:00 doesn't matter, L is defined using S^1 09:05:11 which is S + identity 09:05:11 it's necessary to use S^1 for that 09:05:33 err, what do you mean 09:05:54 yes, it's necessary to define that particular definition the way it's defined, if you want to define it the way it's defined. 09:06:07 :D 09:06:21 i just gave the wrong definition for relation L, originally 09:06:29 which would've made the theorems impossible to prove 09:06:30 probabl 09:06:31 y 09:06:34 well if S x doesn't contain x then only x is in its class 09:06:52 true 09:07:05 err 09:07:26 in its what class, L class with the correct def? 09:07:33 yes 09:08:16 because S^1 y cannot contain x if S^1 x contains y and x is not y 09:08:42 what? 09:08:53 on in that case 09:08:53 assuming S x does not contain x 09:08:56 okay 09:09:16 why? 09:09:34 i can't think at all right now :\ 09:10:14 really don't see it 09:10:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 09:11:00 assume S x does not contain x, and xLy, x != y. then S^1 x = S^1 y. 09:11:42 since x!=y, y \in S x. also x \in S y. but then x \in S x, contradiction. 09:12:30 you're using the wrong def of L there or? 09:12:37 no, the right one. 09:12:53 since x!=y you cannot have 1 x = y or x = 1 y 09:12:53 so... you assume xLy, and prove S^1 x = S^1 y? 09:13:00 Maybe I should stick with Mozart/Oz instead 09:13:11 that's the definition of L 09:13:13 oklopol: um that's not proving, that's using the definition 09:13:18 opkay 09:13:25 ohh lol 09:13:26 yeah okay 09:13:49 yeah okay you're right 09:14:20 does that give us something interesting? 09:14:33 it seems like it could be the gist of ...something 09:14:46 only a way to rephrase xLy without using S^1 09:14:46 locks 09:14:48 Oz has locks 09:14:58 * Sgeo_ goes back to trying to understand ANIC 09:15:27 hmm err right 09:15:28 :P 09:15:38 Oz is tempting me though in every other way 09:15:42 i suppose it's something i'd normally consider trivial 09:16:14 well i'm tired too 09:20:49 my head hurts 09:21:14 i'll prolly go to the shoppe, eat a pizza, and try to sleep only till like 18 09:21:31 and hope i can stay awake all night and then do the exam :D 09:21:36 hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 09:22:09 i've been trying to flip my sleep rhythm all week, but it just keeps around, and i mostly sleep during the day 09:23:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: The fucked up sleep channel | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/. 09:23:23 anyway see ya, might actually be useful to talk about this stuff with you if i was even close to my usual self, but currently i'm just durrrr xS durrrr what did that mean again 09:23:50 see ya 09:24:58 ...actually that's exactly what i did because i defined R using xS and then assumed x was automatically there 09:25:08 but yewah <>-ewaf<-> 09:31:57 skip 09:32:04 Yay, I wrote an Oz program! 09:32:44 All sorts of languages have bizarre ways of saying NOP 09:32:50 i could write an Oz program, if i only had a brain 09:33:01 COBOL's continue, Oz's skip, Python's pass 09:33:03 lol oerjan 09:34:22 -!- kokkoloko has joined. 09:35:12 http://pastie.org/1442161 09:35:24 Hey, this code from the tutorial is comprehendible! 09:35:55 I just realized something, I think 09:36:25 {Max 3 4 X} would bind 4 to X. But {Max 3 4 3} would raise an exception, and {Max 3 4 4} doesn't 09:36:31 That's interesting to think about 09:38:57 There's def. a Prolog vibe here 09:44:14 -!- kokkoloko has left (?). 09:54:18 -!- j-invariant has joined. 10:03:03 * Sgeo_ wonders what Alice is lie 10:03:20 Alice ML? 10:03:26 Grah, don't want to learn SML first 10:03:46 I think it's a sort of toned down version of Oz, but with Types 10:04:09 Is Oz still actively worked on? 10:09:50 ineiros, there is a hole in my mines that I did not blow. I have not been on for a few days but I suspect ehird or PH. It looks like TNT 10:09:59 they were in that area when I last disconnected 10:10:50 ineiros, a lot of damage 10:16:36 ineiros, see /msg for further detailks 10:16:38 details* 10:19:43 http://superuser.com/questions/230871/is-it-possible-to-code-on-two-different-computers-simultaneously 10:19:45 * oerjan predicts this will instigate a violent minecraft civil war which will lasts for months and only peter out when it turns out these explosions are just caused by a somewhat rare interaction of bugs 10:19:51 "Is it possible to code on two different computers simultaenously" 10:19:55 *last 10:26:36 oerjan: Sometimes it feels as if we're in a permanent civil war already. 10:32:39 * Sgeo_ wants to see servers based on war 10:32:51 * Sgeo_ imagines extensive Obsidian mining campaigns 10:33:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages 10:33:21 Well, there goes any chance of me sleeping ever again 10:33:58 Actually, I have no way of determining which are interesting and which aren;t 10:34:25 All that have odd SHA hashes are interesting. (A scientific fact.) 10:35:31 Sgeo_: you could make something that picks a random one each week and tells you to learn about it 10:35:47 unless it has "Visual" in the name 10:41:53 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:54:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:54:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 10:54:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:54:36 -!- dilapan has left (?). 10:58:04 Phantom_Hoover, perhaps you can explain why there is an obvious TNT hole in my mines. You and ehird were the people most recently seen near that place. 10:58:47 I want my lawyer. 10:58:57 ... 10:59:41 Phantom_Hoover, in other words, you did it? 10:59:55 No, I mean that I want my lawyer. 11:01:38 Phantom_Hoover, that sounds absurd in this situation. Anyway someone blew up stuff there. One chest with mined obsidian and diamond (about 15 of each) was in the destroyed area. So I want to know who did it 11:01:56 Erm. 11:02:17 elliott placed the TNT, and I set it off unintentionally. 11:02:31 Ridiculous as that sounds, I have a touchpad with tap-to-click enabled. 11:03:09 So TNT is unremovable? 11:03:29 Phantom_Hoover, ... 11:03:30 Sgeo_, you can safely detonate it if you pour water over it. 11:03:40 Phantom_Hoover, speaking of compensation... 11:04:08 How much obsidian can you mine with 3 diamonds (= 1 diamond pick-axe)? 11:04:23 Vorpal, you have far more obsidian than 15 blocks. 11:04:40 You've stated yourself that you have storerooms full of it. 11:04:54 yes quite. But it is work restoring the area 11:05:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:05:14 Phantom_Hoover, you could have told me right away so ineiros could have used a backup to restore that chunk 11:05:43 Well, I can help patching over the hole. 11:06:14 Phantom_Hoover, also compensation doesn't work that way. If you burn down a small garden shed in real life of someone who has a large house and a lot of money there will still be consequences 11:06:36 Vorpal, take it up with elliott. 11:07:03 Phantom_Hoover, I leave it up to you two how to split the compensation between you 11:07:26 Vorpal, that will come to "nothing/2" then. 11:08:04 Phantom_Hoover, very well. I will speak with ineiros when he comes on 11:10:22 Vorpal, I did offer to help repair the damage. 11:10:23 But if you think elliott is going to do anything like help with "compensation", you are being astoundingly naïve. 11:10:26 -!- pingveno has quit (*.net *.split). 11:10:30 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 11:10:35 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 11:10:45 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split). 11:10:49 -!- hagb4rd|afk has quit (Quit: hagb4rd|afk). 11:11:07 Phantom_Hoover, I wonder what he would do in real life in case he messed up for someone else 11:11:31 Sgeo_: With one diamond pickaxe, you can mine 1025 blocks of obsidian, assuming you have the patience (about 4 hours, 22 minutes of solid mining) for it. 11:12:25 -!- dbc has joined. 11:12:39 -!- pingveno has joined. 11:12:39 -!- coppro has joined. 11:12:39 -!- Leonidas has joined. 11:12:57 Minecraft is serious business. 11:13:26 * oerjan distinctly recall someone said obsidian should be made with lava and water, not mined 11:13:30 *recalls 11:13:37 oerjan, yes, it should. 11:13:54 Well, if you don't want to spend ages getting the blocks. 11:17:31 How long does it take to transport all the lava to where you need it? 11:17:53 Sgeo_: Depends on how many buckets you want to make. 11:18:16 Enough to have large stockpiles of lava 11:18:55 If you use all the non-hand slots for buckets, you could carry 27 bucketfuls of lava each trip to your lava sea. 11:25:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:26:46 fizzie, incidentally, why is the hillside in front of the wooden house scoured of dirt? 11:29:29 Is this a new development or something? 11:30:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 11:30:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Changing host). 11:30:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 11:30:38 03:29:29 Is this a new development or something? 11:30:53 No, just wondering why it was like that in the first place. 11:31:01 Oh. Well, that was before my time. 11:31:30 Phantom__Hoover, to answer your in game question: 26 11:33:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:20:14 I think I like Atomo more than Slate, but.. I'm wondering if Slate syntax weirdness is there for a very good reason 12:20:49 And how, in Atomo, you'd go about pattern matching such that a family of objects might receive etc,' 12:21:00 The way in Slate, you'd use Someclass traits in the thingy 12:21:25 I'm assuming elliott knows the answer to this. He's known almost every language I have ever looked at 12:21:26 . 12:22:33 does wood have any use? or should it all be turned into planks? 12:22:39 -!- dangerouslyfluff has joined. 12:22:47 -!- dangerouslyfluff has left (?). 12:24:01 "For wood to be destroyed by fire it must have several sides simultaneously burning. If only one side is burning, the fire and wood block will last forever. This is probably a bug but makes for nice fireplaces. Now, Netherrack can be used instead, as it burns forever without any tricks." 12:26:05 does wood have any use? or should it all be turned into planks? ← basically, yes. 12:26:18 It's good for decoration, but not much else. 12:26:36 also how does the algorithm for culling leaves work? 12:26:47 when you chop some wood away there is some kind of CA that culls leaves 12:27:16 does wood have any use? or should it all be turned into planks? <-- it is useful to carry as logs in inventory, takes less space for the same amount of wood 12:28:35 Is this list exaustive? http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Crafting 12:28:40 j-invariant, lets say you are exploring a cave and want to carry torches with you. Carrying 64 logs will be equiv of 256 wood, which can be used for§ 512 torches (with 128 coal). 12:29:08 and this can be done in inventory screen crafting slots 12:30:18 Atomo blocks are the prettiest of them all 12:30:45 j-invariant, think so. But I haven't checked. 12:30:54 but at a quick glance I see nothing missing 12:31:34 j-invariant, though it does combine some where the material varies but the shape does not (various types of armour, the ore blocks) 12:31:40 (and tools) 12:35:28 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:37:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:41:02 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:48:04 * Sgeo_ wants a list of all domain names that end with -lang 13:01:09 Sgeo_, unsure if you can enumerate an entire TLD. Probably not 13:01:56 Vorpal, I am aware that my fantasy is unrealistic 13:02:03 Good thing too. It would be like crack 13:02:15 Any list of new and interesting languages is crack to me 13:06:10 Sgeo_, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Programming_language 13:06:33 Phantom__Hoover, there's no filter on that 13:06:43 I have some idea of what fascinates me and what doesn't 13:06:56 ... 13:06:57 Oh 13:07:00 Oh shit 13:08:43 oklopol: the ball paradox. 13:09:06 it is based on the axiom of choice and uses rotations in 4 dimensions. 13:09:19 Sgeo_ will not be seen alive again. 13:09:53 But there's so many awesome languages not on the wiki! 13:13:14 -!- ELEMENTO has joined. 13:14:15 Vorpal, I am aware that my fantasy is unrealistic Good thing too. It would be like crack <-- what, is it a fantasy to list all domains ending in -lang? 13:14:19 I just searched Freenode for channels tha mention lang 13:14:24 I mean what the hell 13:15:00 I'm screwed 13:15:40 personally I seldom check out new languages unless someone I know mentions it 13:17:03 I found a good set of usable languages that cover my daily needs (haskell, C, erlang, scheme, plus a handful of shell like languages for trivial tasks). 13:18:43 what good -lang channels are there? 13:18:48 Sgeo 13:19:00 I don't know of any that uses such a suffix 13:19:14 I mean, it's #haskell, not #haskell-lang for example 13:19:18 Some have lang in the topic 13:19:33 #euphoria #mirah #haxe #grml #BitC 13:19:35 #arc 13:19:46 the only one I heard of in that list is BitC 13:19:58 which looks somewhat interesting. Might be dead though. Not sure 13:20:02 #atomo 13:20:12 #fancy 13:20:18 oh wait, I heard of arc too 13:20:20 #fantom doesn't mention lang in the topic 13:20:22 do not try arc 13:20:24 ever 13:20:34 Oh? 13:21:03 Sgeo_, it's a very very bad lisp. The PHP of LISPs basically. 13:21:25 Sgeo_, Paul Graham, need I say more. 13:21:36 -!- ELEMENTO has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com). 13:21:44 "The PHP of LISPs" was more informative than "Paul Graham" 13:23:31 grml is not a language, apparently 13:23:59 It got caught because of "Official language: en" in the topic 13:24:30 Vorpal, Arc? 13:25:13 #hugin 13:25:23 Is not a language 13:27:18 Phantom__Hoover, err. Are you asking if I'm talking about arc or are you asking what arc is? 13:27:27 What is itt? 13:27:30 *it 13:28:20 Phantom__Hoover, the PHP of lisps. I expect elliott hates it too (not sure if it has been mentioned in the channel before). 13:28:46 Yes, but that's just telling me your opinion of it, not what it is or why you think that. 13:29:45 Phantom__Hoover, do you know of Paul Graham at all? 13:29:51 No. 13:30:03 Well, I associate his name with Lisp vaguely. 13:30:31 Phantom__Hoover, hm, you should ask elliott when he comes on. I'm a bit busy today. Water leak and that means calling insurance company and so on. 13:41:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:41:49 http://i.imgur.com/h5Mjg.jpg 13:41:53 Goddamn it. 13:42:07 Phantom__Hoover, looks awesome 13:42:22 Phantom__Hoover, is it Hindenburg? 13:42:27 Yes, but it's bigger than the ROU and much cooler! 13:42:43 Phantom__Hoover, quite. How many blocks it it from end to end? 13:42:51 Dunno. 13:43:01 Definitely more than the ROU, though. 13:43:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:43:13 Phantom__Hoover, less I think. But it is much thicker near the middle 13:43:33 Phantom__Hoover, and it is a lot more complete 13:43:43 Phantom__Hoover, what server is it on? 13:44:03 I don't know. 13:47:40 Phantom__Hoover, nice large ocean in that screenshot too, behind the zeppelin or blimp 13:47:40 I'm going to play some more MC 13:47:48 I just wish I didn't have to do it fullscreen 13:47:53 oh wait 13:47:58 that is end of world is it? 13:48:02 Did I mention that it's logically possible to penetrate 1-metre-thick layers of anything? 13:48:04 (rendered world) 13:48:31 Phantom__Hoover, of anything? 13:48:39 Yep. 13:48:47 Phantom__Hoover, well sure with the right tools 13:50:33 Phantom__Hoover, but MC seems to match there except for bedrock. And bedrock can be explained by suspension of disbelief. And also that falling through bottom of world is annoying. 13:57:19 -!- Zuu has joined. 14:20:13 Vorpal, erm, no, I mean without breaking it. 14:20:19 i.e. including bedrock. 14:22:09 Phantom__Hoover, are you saying you can wall through a wall of steel 1 m thick without making a hole? 14:22:49 Erm, I meant in MC. 14:23:00 And only horizontal layers. 14:23:04 Phantom__Hoover, oh I thought this was a "look how unrealistic MC is" rant 14:23:25 And only in SMP. 14:23:31 hm how? 14:24:46 Place track on top of layer. Place minecart on top of track. Climb into minecart. Destroy minecart. 14:26:41 Phantom__Hoover, ah 14:27:10 Phantom__Hoover, where does the minecart end up? 14:27:57 I assume you pick it up while falling into the top-secret enemy base. 14:29:47 Phantom__Hoover, what happens if the layer is 2 or 3 thick? 14:30:23 Vorpal, then it doesn't work, obviously. 14:33:21 Is there a channel on here for music? 14:34:57 I doubt there's a decent one. 14:35:46 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S219XUm18LA <-- This particular break is called the AMEN 14:42:13 There should really be a language that compiles into a TM. 14:42:26 TM? 14:42:44 Turing machine? 14:44:13 (I still think that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3keLeMwfHY is the coolest thing ever.) 14:44:30 I think it's silly 14:44:59 you need a computer to build that computer 14:46:25 very attractive machine though 14:47:28 Yes, but to be fair an analogue control mechanism would be nigh impossible to build. 14:50:52 Phantom__Hoover, analogue computers do exist though. 14:54:35 Vorpal, any sophisticated enough for a TM's control mechanism? 14:54:57 Phantom__Hoover, no expert on them 14:55:10 what do you mean Phantom__Hoover? 14:55:15 a TM control mechanism? 14:55:31 The state machine? 14:55:57 The bit which controls the tape? 14:56:22 Phantom__Hoover, isn't that just an FSA basically? 14:56:24 I don't understand. What's that to do with analogue? 14:57:02 Erm. I had a point but I've forgotten it. 14:57:48 "Analogue" is an absurd notation anyway 14:57:59 nothing in reality is analogue 15:03:05 j-invariant: you'd rather explain the idea at length every time you need it rather than give it a name? 15:03:20 oklopol: really? 15:03:35 i don't think it's at all absurd 15:03:44 why not? 15:04:14 anyway Vorpal, a tm is nothing but an FSA with moving, reading and writing 15:05:27 j-invariant: digital is when we use two-valued electrical signals and no moving parts, analogue is else. 15:05:48 okay, I thought it meant something else 15:06:12 well that's a horrible oversimplification. 15:07:02 the significance of the term is that almost everything happens to be digital 15:07:26 so just knowing the vague fact of analogueness is more than enough in many cases 15:07:58 but really i'm not sure what you mean by that nothing in reality is analogue 15:08:48 i hope your point wasn't that the universe is discrete or anything 15:09:07 I meant analogue as in Newtonian physics or exact real numbers (which can hold an infinite amount of information) 15:09:42 if you take these things seriously you get stupid consequences like planetary systems which reach infinity in finite time etc. 15:10:50 i don't know what that means. but analogue is a very concrete concept, and it refers to the kind of continuous scales the universe allows, not to computation with reals. 15:11:01 yeah 15:11:03 what does "reach infinity" mean 15:12:11 http://www.ams.org/notices/199505/saari-2.pdf 15:15:31 ah 15:15:43 so reach infinity in the obvious sense 15:16:50 anyway Vorpal, a tm is nothing but an FSA with moving, reading and writing <-- indeed. Wasn't that what I said? 15:17:01 Vorpal: i was confirming that 15:17:32 *yes, a tm is ... 15:35:52 YouTube comment: "omfg thats diamond i picked that yeter day and thoguht it was a snowball so i threw it into the lava xD" 15:35:57 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaZ6wtes58M&feature=related 15:36:14 Minecraft spells "chestplate" as "chesplate". 15:36:15 I despair. 15:36:40 xD 15:44:27 Jesus, what was that. 15:44:49 Like a screech or some... oh, it's that terrifying ambience. 15:56:12 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 15:58:48 -!- elliott has joined. 15:59:52 elliott, Vorpal told me to ask you why Arc is the PHP of Lisps. 16:00:18 Tell Vorpal I just woke up. 16:00:25 I'm here 16:00:50 Phantom__Hoover: Tell Vorpal I just woke up. 16:01:11 23:34:05 riddle time: imagine there are 2 doors..one leads to heaven (actually the place you want to go), the other leads to hell.. in front of each stands a guardian, one is telling the truth, and the other one lies (you don't know who lies).. u have only one(!) question to find out which door leads leads to paradise; what question would you ask? (if you already know the answer, be nice and let the others take a chance) hf 16:01:11 ! 16:01:15 hahahahaahahahah 16:01:15 j-invariant: real numbers do not hold an infinite amount of information. 16:01:16 Vorpal, he just woke up, apparently 16:01:18 ahhahahahhahahahaha 16:01:21 Phantom__Hoover: thanks 16:01:25 cheater00: yes they do 16:01:36 no 16:01:38 cheater00: consider Chaitin's omega 16:01:49 cheater00, they do. 16:01:50 elliott, uh, you are not on ignore. Why go through Phantom__Hoover? 16:01:54 It's obvious. 16:01:58 every real number can be encoded by a single point on an axis. 16:02:03 Vorpal: because i felt like it! 16:02:08 ah 16:02:10 cheater00: that single point is describable only by a real. 16:02:20 yes! 16:02:21 It can take an infinite number of digits to, say, describe the real in binary 16:02:22 elliott, you are aiming for being awake the same time as oerjan is? 16:02:27 They can be represented by an infinite array of bits; ergo, they represent an infinite amount of information. 16:02:35 but that real is just one piece of information. 16:02:43 Vorpal: clearly. 16:02:46 cheater00: you do not understand information theory. 16:02:51 cheater00, I have a file on my hard drive 16:02:54 cheater00, do please shut up, then. 16:02:56 it cannot be described by a finite amount of binary data 16:02:56 It's Infinity GB 16:03:02 Phantom__Hoover: gfy 16:03:09 It does not store an infinite amount of information, as it's just one file. 16:03:21 cheater00: you do not know what the formal definition of "information" is. accordingly, your arguments have no basis. 16:03:26 Sgeo: you misunderstood my point 16:03:32 a real _does_ convey an infinite amount of information. 16:03:51 elliott: my point is, "finite" depends on what algebraic system you are working on 16:04:14 That's "infinity" that has a tendency to vary, I think 16:04:15 cheater00: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory 16:04:16 cheater00: thank you 16:04:18 elliott, but how compressible is that real. That is also interesting (though a different issue). 16:04:23 I think "finite" is usually the same, I may be wrong 16:04:33 not sure I'm using the right words for it here 16:04:35 Vorpal: well it's equivalent to a unique infinite stream of naturals. 16:04:41 so it's exactly as compressable as that :) 16:04:44 in Z, you can only encode +oo with an infinite amount of numbers which tend to +oo 16:04:45 (more or less) 16:05:04 in Z u {+oo} you can encode +oo in a finite amount of information 16:05:15 cheater00: question, what makes you say that you know more mathematics than other people and act condescending towards them when clearly you have no idea at all? 16:05:26 i act condescending? 16:05:51 yes 16:05:54 i'm just explaining myself. 16:05:56 I don't think you act condescendingly. Just wrongly. 16:06:00 elliott: question, what makes you say that you know more mathematics than other people and act condescending towards them when clearly you have no idea at all? 16:06:01 23:29:42 every finite sequence has an infinity of possible continuations 16:06:01 23:29:43 didn't you insult my math skills once before? 16:06:01 23:29:51 quite possible :p 16:06:02 elliott, what I was thinking of was that you can some reals, such as pi or e as a simple algorithm that can calculate it to any given precision. 16:06:02 23:29:51 yeah that's the most retarded comment i've ever heard 16:06:04 23:29:58 um 16:06:06 23:30:00 seriously 16:06:08 23:30:05 it's mathematically proven 16:06:10 ^ this is idiotic and condescending towards oklopol 16:06:13 enjoy /ignore 16:06:18 16:05 < elliott> 23:29:42 every finite sequence has an infinity of possible continuations 16:06:19 how cute 16:06:21 that is correct 16:06:24 j-invariant: indeed it is 16:06:36 j-invariant: however, cheater00 was repeating it over and over, acting like oklopol didn't know it, 16:06:39 someone's got a chip on their shoulder 16:06:41 j-invariant: and trying to use it to "disprove" that Clue works 16:06:47 what LOL 16:06:53 i wasn't disproving anything. 16:06:58 the fact is that that theorem has basically NO relevance ...ever... 16:07:01 it's not some great truth 16:07:16 we're back to elliott making up bs 16:07:31 as usual when he's pissed off at something in his life and wants to channel it onto *someone* 16:07:54 how is that not an attempt to make things worse? 16:08:08 my conversation with oklopol was fairly relaxed. 16:08:22 j-invariant: what i just said about elliott? 16:08:27 lol @ logs, cheater00, always the psychoanalyst 16:08:44 j-invariant: how can it possibly get worse when i address the immediate problem at hand? 16:08:49 i wonder what kind of person it takes to be a persistent troll without actually actively trying to _troll_, and then acting really stupid whenever anyone treats him like a troll 16:08:53 llol at putting someone onn ignore then just reading what they say anyway X) 16:09:14 yeah, whatevs elliott 16:09:15 j-invariant: it's great because i can just ignore 90% of it and yell at them for the remaining 10% 16:09:25 I found masses of coal 16:09:32 elliott, Atomo: Nice language or piece of crap? Same question for Slate 16:09:53 What's atomo and isn't slate that copycat thing 16:09:54 lol @ logs, cheater00, always the psychoanalyst <-- what exactly is the point of /ignore then :P 16:09:56 Sgeo: try deciding yourself...unless you're going through like 498543795345794354354 languages and need a reply 16:10:07 Vorpal: i'm asking myself. 16:10:08 elliott: he is going through the whole list 16:10:12 Vorpal: gets him angry, lets me ignore 90% of what he says without my irc client beeping 16:10:21 It's just that Atomo and Slate are... similar 16:10:24 elliott, oh you have it beep your speakers? 16:10:27 not really. not at all in fact. 16:10:32 Vorpal: when someone highlights me, yes. i find it useful. 16:10:35 atomo: Hey guys, guys check this out: What if we took scheme right.. and then ... changed the syntax to look like ruby! 16:10:55 elliott: being on ignore doesn't make me angry, you making up bs and getting angry at me for no reason like a hormonal 13 year old girl on a rag makes me angry 16:10:56 Sgeo: atomo i don't...care about... at all... it's just...not interesting in the slightest and doesn't innovate at all really 16:11:05 elliott, i just make it flash the emacs "button" in the taskbar. 16:11:18 I don't know anything about slate 16:11:23 Sgeo: slate is interesting! i have talked to the people behind it. it's prototype-based but with multiple-dispatch. 16:11:32 but...it's still a mutable, imperative OO language 16:11:40 and i'm completely sick of them. 16:11:42 Isn't Atomo also prototype-based with multiple-dispatch? 16:11:46 they are very much not the way forward. 16:11:48 Sgeo: i don't know nor care 16:12:03 okay, looks like it. but it's irrelevant. 16:12:07 firstly, it's just a toy language. 16:12:14 secondly, Erlang's concurrency model sucks. 16:12:21 thirdlyi t's just ... how can you even get interested in it 16:12:22 it's shit 16:12:30 it is impossible to care about 16:12:54 also it has macros, which are anti-features. 16:12:59 anti-features 16:13:00 ? 16:13:01 It's like a prettier Slate.. missing some Slate stuff 16:13:10 slate is pretty. 16:13:16 j-invariant: "features" that make a language worse 16:13:19 @ is not pretty 16:13:21 j-invariant: example: mutability 16:13:24 I like macros in Scheme 16:13:26 The rest of it is, @ is not. 16:13:33 Sgeo: good to know we're still extremely superficial 16:13:53 Although.. it might be easier to understand than whatever magic Atomo does 16:14:12 atomo also has bad concurrency and macros, as i said. two points against it. 16:14:18 also, slate is an actual project, atomo is a toy language. 16:14:27 also it has macros, which are anti-features. ← even the Lispy ones? 16:14:32 Slate seems to have taken a hiatus, and is just now waking up 16:14:40 Phantom__Hoover: pretty much. 16:14:47 Sgeo: it has been going since the 90s. their irc channel is relatively active. 16:14:58 Sgeo: it still works fine. :p 16:14:59 The huge manual is supposedly obsolete, there are no up-to-date binaries 16:15:06 elliott, how do they make the language worse? 16:15:09 Downloads 16:15:09 slate.little.32.2011-01-01.image.bz2 16:15:09 slate.little.64.2010-04-01.image.bz2 16:15:10 Show all » 16:15:12 Sgeo: no up to date binaries? 16:15:20 I stand corrected 16:15:29 "Release Overview (Currently Old Releases Only)" 16:15:29 Phantom__Hoover: (f (g hello) (h)) 16:15:31 Phantom__Hoover: this can't be the same as 16:15:37 Why do they say "old releases only" then? 16:15:43 Phantom__Hoover: (let ((hello 2)) (f (g hello) (h)) 16:15:44 Wait 16:15:46 Sgeo: those are snapshots, I believe 16:15:55 Phantom__Hoover: basically... you can't rely on anything with function applications 16:15:58 Phantom__Hoover: every invariant breaks 16:16:07 Ah, right. 16:16:09 Ah, got it 16:16:47 Phantom__Hoover: it is possible to manage this but i'm gradually and gradually getting more pissed off that the computer doesn't tell me when i did something stupid 16:16:56 Phantom__Hoover: also, 60% of what you want macros for can be done with lazy evaluation. 16:17:30 Ioke differentiates between macros and functions such that macros are just functions that are call-by-name, Io style 16:17:43 the remaining 40% can be either reworked to be slightly different and not require a macro somehow, or can be done with something like Template Haskell that, yes, is big and ugly to use, but you get signs in your code yelling "HEY I AM CALLING A MACRO HERE", and besides, you shouldn't use it much anyway 16:17:45 *anyway. 16:18:01 Phantom__Hoover: also: macros introduce more of a "compile time" 16:18:05 semantically 16:18:08 whereas lazy evaluation doesn' 16:18:08 t 16:18:52 elliott, how out of date is http://files.slatelanguage.com/progman/ ? 16:19:27 Sgeo: #slate 16:19:43 clog-logged, I would add. 16:19:48 TUNES represent :) 16:20:51 "their irc channel is relatively active." 16:20:52 LIES 16:21:19 Sgeo: perhaps because they haven't had a sgeo to irritate them. 16:27:17 so I have to somehow aquire like a million iron ingots 16:27:23 j-invariant: why? 16:27:35 so I can make a track from the spawnpoint to somewhre interesting 16:27:52 j-invariant: make sure to make it underground :P 16:27:57 Ugh 16:27:58 why? 16:27:58 or high in the air would probably be ok 16:28:01 j-invariant: mobs will walk on it 16:28:05 Also need to install git 16:28:05 and you'll bash into them 16:28:09 hmm 16:28:10 and your booster energy will go 16:28:15 j-invariant: make sure to use boosters, not powered minecrats 16:28:17 *minecarts 16:28:21 unless you want a really slow ride 16:28:25 I want a very fast :P 16:28:31 j-invariant: impossible :) but boosters are close 16:28:37 j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart_booster 16:28:57 j-invariant: it's a "bug" but although some people it's being fixed i'm not sure it will be in the short term at all, everyone uses them 16:29:03 and it's SO MUCH FASTER than powered carts 16:29:27 it is being fixed? :( 16:29:41 j-invariant: well. some people say it is but i haven't actually seen evidence 16:29:50 Hmm 16:29:52 j-invariant: anyway, easy enough to convert to whatever it gets replaced with when that happens. 16:29:58 just removing them would be a joke, powered carts are useless 16:29:58 Actually, I think I understand @ a bit better 16:30:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:30:05 use a minecart enhancement mod if that happens :P 16:30:20 wow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v5cAFYouWY#t=4m52s cool 16:30:25 j-invariant: anyway one booster can keep you going for hundreds of blocks 16:30:29 so you only really need...one 16:31:53 j-invariant: btw, an "easy" way to make a resetting booster is to make it go upwarda fater the cart leaves and hit a wall :D 16:31:54 *upwards after 16:31:59 but using the south-west rule is more reliable 16:35:09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19PZA1tnKtg cool 16:36:37 elliott, Slate has macros 16:36:47 antifeature indeed 16:36:58 why? 16:37:17 j-invariant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PA2uLm8ups enjoy being crepeed out 16:37:18 why what? 16:37:38 you're against macros? 16:37:44 j-invariant: pretty much :) 16:37:54 why! 16:38:13 j-invariant: 16:38:15 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: (f (g hello) (h)) 16:38:15 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: this can't be the same as 16:38:15 16:15 Sgeo: Why do they say "old releases only" then? 16:38:17 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: (let ((hello 2)) (f (g hello) (h)) 16:38:19 16:15 Sgeo: Wait 16:38:21 16:15 elliott: Sgeo: those are snapshots, I believe 16:38:23 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: basically... you can't rely on anything with function applications 16:38:25 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: every invariant breaks 16:38:27 16:16 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: it is possible to manage this but i'm gradually and gradually getting more pissed off that the computer doesn't tell me when i did something stupid 16:38:29 16:16 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: also, 60% of what you want macros for can be done with lazy evaluation. 16:38:31 16:17 Sgeo: Ioke differentiates between macros and functions such that macros are just functions that are call-by-name, Io style 16:38:33 16:17 elliott: the remaining 40% can be either reworked to be slightly different and not require a macro somehow, or can be done with something like Template Haskell that, yes, is big and ugly to use, but you get signs in your code yelling "HEY I AM CALLING A MACRO HERE", and besides, you shouldn't use it much anyway 16:39:03 Slate's macros require knowing that you're calling a macro, I think 16:40:30 j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart_booster has all kinds of boosters 16:40:56 j-invariant: lol http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/f/fa/Minecart-booster-door-1.jpg "well it's not like i haven't used 3485739845 iron anyway, i'll make some blocks of it" 16:43:35 I don't like the idea that, in a message send, a clone of a clone of a clone of an object (essentially, a child) is not necessarily the same as the object itself in choosing what's dispatched 16:43:45 Maybe I'm misunderstanding it 16:46:17 Vorpal: house built on top of ice: best idea? 16:47:33 oklopol: well... remind me to fix what i broke in the zip impl tomorrow. dunno what. :(. also: remind me to make that auto-realigning emacs mode. in fact just copy this to a file and restate it to me. 16:47:55 Vorpal: oh wait bad idea, can't build underground 16:47:56 oklopol: yess indeed i will do that in 2 min 16:47:56 s 16:49:57 elliott, eh. house on top of ice sounds cool, and cold. And dark since you can't use torches 16:50:49 j-invariant: lol http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/f/fa/Minecart-booster-door-1.jpg "well it's not like i haven't used 3485739845 iron anyway, i'll make some blocks of it" <-- ignoring the iron blocks the idea is still very neat 16:51:29 elliott, btw tried out the two winner texturepacks (well, not the second place one, that candy one). Both are way too dark in colours for me. 16:51:46 eldpack is somewhat better when it comes to that, but still too dark 16:52:07 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Minecart-booster-door-2.jpg <-- why!? 16:52:43 oh I guess it can't go into the block fully 16:52:45 that must be why 16:55:20 OK. I built a path from spawn to my new house (out of wood markers). It's in a nice area. I have a sword. 16:55:26 But I need coal! 16:55:37 And there are no mountains to speak of nearby. 16:55:40 elliott, oh where is that house? 16:55:43 it sounds fun 16:55:48 elliott, you finally getting a house I mean 16:55:54 Vorpal: Er, on my single-player game. 16:55:58 elliott, oh okay 16:57:21 "As opposed to PostScript? 16:57:21 I learned Japanese well after I learned PostScript. It turned out to my delight that Japanese and PostScript grammar have quite a lot in common. I don't know why it hasn't made the Japanese masters at writing clever PostScript though. 16:57:21 Oh wait." 16:57:26 (oh wait is link to obfuscated raytracer in postscript) 16:57:30 so that's why anagolf is full of postscript ;) 16:57:31 *:) 16:57:42 oklopol: ok i'ma code now 16:58:13 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 425, in call_clue 16:58:13 return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim) 16:58:13 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 411, in call_branch 16:58:15 suboutputs.append(call_clue(clue,subinputs,depth_lim-1)) 16:58:17 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 425, in call_clue 16:58:19 return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim) 16:58:20 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 411, in call_branch 16:58:23 suboutputs.append(call_clue(clue,subinputs,depth_lim-1)) 16:58:24 File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 425, in call_clue 16:58:27 return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim) 16:58:29 oklopol: that's bad, isn't it 17:02:08 oklopol: can i er 17:02:10 elliott, in /general/ backtraces probably are bad. 17:02:11 have your files 17:02:14 to figure out what i broke 17:02:21 elliott, though iirc there is some esolang based on error handling? 17:02:33 Vorpal: no this is example based programming, the most powerful paradigm 17:02:38 and i lost all my py files and my release doesn't work 17:02:44 elliott, I didn't say that one was based on errors 17:02:50 elliott, please read what I said :) 17:02:58 i did 17:02:59 i discarded it 17:03:09 oklopol: oh wait... it actually works, just depth limit errors turn into stack overflows 17:03:12 oklopol: is that...right? 17:03:16 elliott, elliott, though iirc there is some esolang based on error handling? Vorpal: no this is example based programming, the most powerful paradigm <-- this exchange makes no sense 17:03:52 and i lost all my py files and my release doesn't work <-- how? 17:04:10 rm *.pyc ----> rm *.py, and no, i'm not going to alias it into rm -i, i'm just going to be more careful 17:04:26 now i'm just trying to figure out why the zip i made doesn't work the same 17:04:27 elliott, a decent compromise might be rm -I ? 17:04:39 my rm does not have that option :) 17:05:03 elliott, oh okay. For being a GNU extension (I assume) it is damn useful 17:07:03 http://sprunge.us/EAUF didn't quite realise how tiny the Luatre implementation is 17:07:07 cool :D 17:07:32 elliott, Luatre? 17:07:44 a language for calling Clue programs, basically. 17:07:48 ah 17:07:49 luatre, the clue bot, uses it. 17:07:52 and also the clue repl i wrote. 17:08:13 elliott, the function names...? 17:08:45 Vorpal: well "eval" is python's. 17:08:49 "run" is another thing. 17:08:55 elliott, also where is "cabinetoflaughter" called apart from inside itself? 17:09:02 Vorpal: um that's a module 17:09:04 other things call it 17:09:06 for instance the repl and the bot 17:09:11 cabinetoflaughter is just your eval func, obviously 17:09:12 elliott, oh so it isn't the whole thing then 17:09:15 yes it is 17:09:17 it's the whole language impl 17:09:22 cabinetoflaughter(park(code)[0]) is what other things do 17:09:25 to provide a UI 17:09:31 ah right 17:10:10 elliott, are the other functions part of the public API too? 17:10:20 (doesn't python use some special naming convention for private?) 17:10:31 nothing is public, clue and all tools related to it are closed source 17:10:34 that you have to pay for 17:10:45 oklopol, a very different sense of public :P 17:10:59 unless you really want to distribute them and download them for free 17:11:25 oh indeed, i didn't read context at all 17:11:26 oklopol: is it ok if the interp stack overflows sometimes rather than, say, raising a depth overflow thingy 17:11:51 not really, if that means the program crashes 17:11:58 i don't care what error messages say tho 17:12:07 also, it's your interpreter, what does my opinion matter 17:12:19 oklopol: it's your interp that i'm modifying :p 17:12:25 oklopol: in call branch, 17:12:26 suboutputs.append(call_clue(clue,subinputs,depth_lim-1)) 17:12:26 oh indeed it is 17:12:31 i figured you were just asking 17:12:34 shouldn't that immediately return None if that returns none? 17:12:37 what luatre should print out or something 17:12:41 -!- lambdabot has joined. 17:12:43 yeah? 17:13:05 well i don't care what luatre prints out 17:13:17 it's not luatre 17:13:20 it's the damn clue.py 17:13:27 i thought 17:13:42 " yeah?" meant "yes, it's luatre whose output we're talking about" 17:13:50 :D 17:13:50 which i don't care about, as such 17:14:08 i'll work it out later 17:14:16 if depth_lim==0: 17:14:16 return ["nothing here"] 17:14:16 yeah you can make it immediately return none 17:14:16 that should be return None right..? 17:14:24 also, i tried that, but it didn't stop the stack overflow, so nm :) 17:14:27 erm... 17:14:32 but yeah shouldn't nothing here be None... 17:14:41 right runtime errors are currently "nothing here" :D 17:14:50 but yeah you should totally change all those to None 17:14:58 elliott, btw if you use version control rm *.py will be non-fatal (sure, changes since last commit would be lost) 17:15:08 (but that is much less of a problem) 17:15:08 Vorpal: it's oklopol. so no 17:15:11 because failed runs will also return "nothing here"'s when you use them for inference 17:15:16 oklopol: except i think it's a compile time error too 17:15:17 right 17:15:17 yeah 17:15:23 i've used a version control system once! 17:15:29 for an actual project 17:15:30 oklopol, which one? 17:15:43 the program was called tortoisesvn 17:15:51 Vorpal: Incidentally, turns out the N900 default camera app also has a manual white-balance knob nowadays (added by one of the firmware updates, I think); it still doesn't really have any other manual controls (like exposure/focus), but at least that's something. 17:16:01 That's a Windows Subversion client. 17:16:02 oklopol: i changed all one instance and nothing changed :D 17:16:18 why would anything happen 17:16:18 -!- cheater- has joined. 17:16:57 if there's a stack overflow, then clearly the "nothing here" thing is not reached, as that cuts the search. 17:17:04 oklopol: because i'm getting a stack overflow when given a wrong program and depth_lim should be catching it!! 17:17:16 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:17:20 also, i'm not sure it does, there's no checks for nothing here :D 17:17:21 anywhere 17:17:21 if your depth_lim is small enough, then sure 17:17:31 it's 5... 17:17:49 but the search should never be able to continue more than depth lim deep 17:17:50 def unvararg(f,n): 17:17:51 vrs=",".join(["n"+str(i) for i in xrange(n)]) 17:17:51 l="lambda "+vrs+" : f("+vrs+")" 17:17:52 return eval(l,{"f":f}) 17:17:54 genius 17:18:09 is depth lim always decremented when you recurse in the interp? 17:18:19 oklopol: it's YOUR interp :D 17:18:33 oklopol: but uh 17:18:34 if not demolishing_done or not first_round: 17:18:34 new_depth_lim=depth_lim-1 17:18:35 else: 17:18:37 new_depth_lim=depth_lim 17:18:40 not sure what that's about, you added it 17:18:40 note that it's possible that there's a huge stack of functions calls that were inferred, and can't be caught by the interp 17:18:48 that's during compilation 17:20:09 should that stay? 17:20:21 i guess so, changing it doesn't do anything 17:20:29 lesson: don't write invalid programs 17:20:36 fizzie, nice 17:21:01 elliott, ANIC. Worth learning or illegible mess? 17:21:02 :D 17:21:11 Dataflow programming sounds fun 17:21:17 Sgeo: what's special about it? 17:21:20 have you tried example-driven programming? 17:21:26 i hear it's the new c++! 17:21:41 -!- luatre has joined. 17:21:50 Vorpal: Tried it out on the boat (they have that "promenade" walking-thing) but unfortunately it has randomly cycling coloured lighting, which pretty much does the same thing as a randomly fluctuating white-balance. 17:22:10 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6237641484.txt 17:22:10 Downloading... 17:22:11 Compiling, just a minute... 17:22:11 Compiled in 0.0759010314941 seconds 17:22:11 factorial: [#0] | _ => factorial loop(#0 1) 17:22:11 stack-hogging factorial: [#0] | 0 => multiply(pred(0) pred(0)) | _ => multiply(#0 @(pred(#0))) 17:22:11 factorial loop: [#0] | 0 => #1 | _ => @(pred(#0) multiply(#0 #1)) 17:22:11 fibonacci: [#0] | _ => fast fibonacci loop(#0 0 1) 17:22:12 fast fibonacci loop: [#0] | 0 => #1 | _ => @(pred(#0) #2 add(#1 #2)) 17:22:12 slow fibonacci: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(#0)) @(pred(pred(#0)))) 17:22:17 fizzie, oh right you are in Sweden now? 17:22:20 :. factorial(100) 17:22:20 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000L 17:22:28 Vorpal: No, I was on Saturday; we're home now. 17:22:32 fizzie, ah 17:22:40 oklopol: how hard would it be to make the interp tail-recursive? i'm guessing very 17:25:09 easiest way would be to notice tail rcursion at runtime, and just hack up a tail recursive python call 17:25:22 but, i'd just compile to bytecode, in which case it's eay 17:25:25 *easy 17:26:09 or actually 17:27:40 there are no tail recursive python calls really :) 17:27:44 hmm, yeah i don't know if there's a way to easily make a while loop out of that, it would get messy with functions that can branch in multiple ways 17:27:45 oklopol: def name(n):return map(chr,range(97,123))[n%26]+"'"*(n/26) 17:27:49 that's why hack up 17:27:51 oklopol: thought you might enjoy that function 17:27:58 it's not that hard to change the contents of the stack 17:28:11 it gives a,b,c,...,z,a',b',..,z',a'',b'',...,...,f'''' 17:29:28 i just love that function 17:30:26 hmm 17:30:49 >>> dict(enumerate([1,2,3])) 17:30:49 {0: 1, 1: 2, 2: 3} 17:30:50 yess :D 17:31:00 r='('+', '.join(names)+') => ['+past(clue.condast,dict(enumerate(names)))+'] ' 17:31:24 oh wait i need # in front 17:31:35 oklopol: so have you added constants to branchers yet :D 17:31:44 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[afk]. 17:32:07 map(chr,range(97,123))[n%26] looks far more sensibly written as chr(97+n%26). 17:32:17 fizzie: GOOD POINT 17:32:21 and even uglier too 17:32:23 well 17:32:24 less comprehensible 17:34:29 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object 17:34:30 what 17:34:33 oklopol: i broke qsort:DDDD 17:34:40 fizzie's is better 17:34:48 yeah id id 17:34:49 well that happens 17:34:57 life is like thate 17:34:58 *that 17:35:00 Exception: Syntax error: ,[2]]]] 17:35:00 wtf 17:35:03 sometimes things go well 17:35:04 there is no , in the source 17:35:05 and then suddenly 17:35:15 nowait i broke ski did i 17:35:16 recursion depth is exceeded 17:35:22 probably both 17:35:45 ski seems to work 17:35:51 i will fix qsort soon 17:35:58 oklopol: DONE CONSTANTS IN BRANCHERS YET? 17:36:11 no. 17:37:20 oklopol: will you ever or do i have to SLAVE over the code. 17:38:21 well i might even do it today, it's like two lines of code 17:38:25 omg the output is almost beautiful :DD 17:38:32 but i should really try to read these couple of pages i have left 17:39:02 btw you know that your compare function is just python's cmp? :D 17:40:12 it's really not 17:40:20 howso 17:40:27 try changing it to cmp 17:40:31 oh, it's reversed 17:40:32 -cmp then 17:40:45 no but cmp is a builtin 17:40:52 so my function check fails 17:40:53 ;D 17:40:57 oklopol: nono i just mean 17:41:00 the body can be replaced :P 17:41:03 ohh 17:41:04 oklopol: so wait is it cmp or -cmp 17:41:09 well that is of course true 17:41:10 i've turned it into 17:41:10 umm 17:41:12 def compare(a,b): 17:41:12 if not isint(a,b):return None 17:41:12 return cmp(a,b) 17:41:12 what does that matter? 17:41:18 those are the same thing in clue 17:41:19 because it changes the behaviour? :D 17:41:20 oh wait 17:41:20 haha 17:41:22 omg i love clue 17:41:43 yeah, that's probably the awesomest thing about the language 17:41:52 you can change even the interface of functions 17:41:57 without telling anyone 17:41:57 | 3 => @(pair(#1 #2)) 17:41:59 waaait what... 17:42:02 ski apply only has one parameter 17:42:04 ?? 17:42:13 yeah, the current string 17:42:17 that's being rewritten 17:42:20 I think I just had an effect on the evolution of Slate and Atomo 17:42:27 oklopol: yes, but 17:42:34 oklopol: the param is #0 17:42:39 so wtf are #1 and #2 :D 17:42:42 i already replace helper objs 17:43:03 Sgeo: did you hear that in example-driven programming, you can change the sign of the output of your api function, and no one using that function will have to change their code. well, usually anyway. 17:43:19 that's the latest buzz of the example-driven programming community 17:43:30 btw is there such a term already, i didn't actualyl check :D 17:43:32 *actually 17:43:36 oklopol, um... what? How does that happen? 17:43:37 i doubtit :P 17:43:40 *doubt it 17:43:42 Sgeo: cleverly 17:43:48 elliott: no idea what #1 and #2 are. 17:43:57 oklopol: :DDD 17:44:03 i like how printing this is fucking hard 17:44:03 :D 17:44:20 -!- VelcroMan has joined. 17:44:21 i should probably try to find out how that numbering thing works at some point 17:44:33 or better yet, you should :D 17:44:35 i have a feeling it's like 17:44:37 totally broken 17:44:54 wellllll 17:44:58 that happens 17:44:59 oklopol: what i'm doing if you can't tell, is naming the arguments 17:44:59 that's life 17:45:07 in the printout 17:45:09 well i could've guessed that 17:45:12 didn't tho 17:45:14 just because it WASN'T READABLE ENOUGH 17:45:34 okay...deep first's compilation is...very very wrong :D 17:45:42 oklopol: you should see this: 17:45:49 ---- deep first 17:45:49 (a) => [car(a)] 17:45:49 | _ => a 17:45:51 | _ => @(car(a)) 17:45:56 :DDDD 17:46:33 one idea that i had was that 5x"."'d be used for these sort of clue lambdas, where you give an example of a subcomputation; unfortunately this would mean you could just show it the whole computation 17:46:43 oklopol: ^^ 17:46:48 elliott, is Mozart/Oz dead? 17:46:52 oklopol: what...it works 17:46:57 oklopol: how 17:47:06 what? 17:47:08 two _'s? 17:47:11 oklopol: oH 17:47:17 oklopol: clue has figured out that if car returns None 17:47:21 then it's not a list 17:47:27 and so it can return the element directly 17:47:27 i.e. 17:47:40 deep first([[1] 2]) -> deep first([1]) -> deep first(1) -> car returns None -> 1 17:47:41 oklopol: BUT 17:47:44 oklopol: it also has a default branch 17:47:49 and both are represented in the ast by None :D 17:47:57 oklopol: tl;dr your code doesn't give up on None for some reason 17:47:58 or my code :P 17:48:04 so it's actually matching on None itself 17:48:07 to use car to do is list? 17:48:24 it's very possible that that's true 17:48:30 i haven't thought about failing at all 17:48:41 oklopol: so what functions actually call to test things :P 17:48:55 oklopol: ALSO surely raising some special exception would be more reliable than None 17:49:00 since... 17:49:02 things like this 17:49:03 not handling it 17:49:16 the compiler makes sure that all computation is legal, and no Nones are seen 17:49:31 oklopol: well it...doesn't :) 17:49:35 otherwise this func would never be generated 17:49:54 there's no condition? 17:49:55 just a? 17:50:05 umm the [] bit is the condition 17:50:09 oklopol: a is the param 17:50:12 oh alright 17:50:14 ---- deep first 17:50:15 (a) => [car(a)] 17:50:15 | _ => a 17:50:16 | _ => @(car(a)) 17:50:18 so this is actually 17:50:28 case car(a) of None -> a; _ -> recurse(car(a)) 17:50:31 which should never be generated, of course 17:50:35 ever 17:50:41 i.e., it's doing 17:50:42 lemme look at code... 17:50:47 case is list?(a) of 0 -> a; 1 -> recurse(car(a)) 17:50:53 oklopol: do you want my current files :P 17:51:12 not really 17:51:23 as stupid as that is. 17:52:41 -!- VelcroMan has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:53:17 oh shit 17:53:33 wait no 17:53:54 car should throw an exception if it's called with illegal input during search 17:54:04 oklopol: well....... 17:54:06 and in that case, the resulting object is not added to the list of available objects 17:54:10 oklopol: where do you call functions in a search? 17:54:13 I'll make it handle None 17:54:17 try: 17:54:17 newobj=applier(fun,subsetobjs) 17:54:17 if newobj==None:continue 17:54:17 except: 17:54:17 continue 17:54:22 oklopol: yeah no i removed that :D 17:54:30 it's now 17:54:31 newobj=applier(fun,subsetobjs) 17:54:31 if newobj==None:continue 17:54:33 oklopol: but note ==None: 17:54:37 car DOES return None given illgeal input 17:54:38 in my version 17:54:39 *illegal 17:54:42 well obviously it doesn't work if you break it 17:54:47 def car(l): 17:54:47 if not isinstance(l,list) or not l:return None 17:54:47 return l[0] 17:54:48 see above 17:54:50 i didn't break it 17:54:53 it returns None 17:54:57 so it gives exactly the same results 17:55:03 because you do the same on newobj==None and 17:55:13 mhm? 17:55:16 i do, so what, it doesn't work after that correction? 17:55:26 *i do; 17:55:46 oklopol: i'd like to point out that i removed it so that i got useful exceptions rather than "depth limit" for all of them :) 17:55:53 considering the way of failure is to return None 17:56:03 yeah yeah it was a good change, if you fixed functins appropriately 17:56:05 *functions 17:56:07 oklopol: anyway, i have no idea why it wouldn't work in my version, since it's functionally equivalent, are you sure your version doesn't produce the same output? 17:56:12 and yeah i did 17:56:28 i'm not sure my version doesn't produce the same output, no 17:56:34 i don't have a good way to check 17:56:38 oklopol: cluetest.py 17:56:42 python cluetest.py numplay.clue 17:56:48 remember to fix the 3 -> 6 example in factorial first 17:56:50 it's 3 -> something else 17:56:54 in the version you have 17:57:47 -!- VelcroMan has joined. 17:58:34 -!- Behold has joined. 17:59:11 hmm this person must be an esolanger... 17:59:27 elliott, you must tell me your thoughts on Oz. I'll tell you my thoughts: It's large, but... fascinating. Just wish I was more confident that it was actively worked on 18:00:18 erm, can i give parameters to the program from the IDE, adding python to my command line path sounds like a chore, and the default python is 3.1 so i can't drag and drop; you don't use the same IDE tho 18:00:33 oklopol: erm...maybe 18:00:50 oklopol: import sys; sys.argv=['','numplay.clue']; import cluetest 18:02:29 a fucking million useless settings for permissions, but you can't make python.exe not fucking close the terminal after running 18:02:32 i fucking hate this os 18:02:33 i fucking hate it 18:02:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:02:51 arghh 18:02:52 oklopol: trying it from the cmd line instead? :p 18:02:55 i hate command line arguments 18:03:02 oklopol: just do it in cmd.exe and write out the full path to python or something 18:03:05 i dragged-and-dropped 18:03:06 or 18:03:09 it might actually be in the path 18:03:10 i think python adds it 18:03:10 changed default python 18:03:16 ah. 18:04:20 no module named readline 18:04:37 oklopol: :DD 18:04:39 python is not in the path even though i have three versions of it installed. 18:04:41 comment out the import readline in cluetest.py 18:04:48 it's ... sort of not windows-tuned, thsi 18:04:49 *this 18:05:24 yay, works. 18:05:34 wait why am i running numplay? 18:05:40 what was the function 18:05:41 oklopol: ...good question! 18:05:43 deep first 18:05:45 yeah 18:05:49 might wanna turn on demolishing 18:06:13 so now parsing fails 18:06:18 with the same error you pasted 18:06:24 ,[2] 18:06:29 oklopol: yeah it's a bug in ski.clue 18:06:30 remove the comma 18:07:38 now it just plain old can't compile 18:07:49 oklopol: what howso 18:08:45 what the fuck, YOU CAN'T COPYPASTE FROM THE COMMAND LINE WINDOW IN WINDOWS 7 18:08:49 WHAT THE FUCKING HELL 18:08:50 WHY?!?!?!? 18:08:51 oklopol: um 18:08:52 are you sure 18:08:55 you can. 18:08:57 you have to right click the title bar and click mark 18:08:58 :P 18:08:58 not using mouse tho 18:09:02 see above 18:09:05 you've always had to do that 18:09:06 i know 18:09:10 yeah 18:09:13 yes, and you STILL have to do it 18:09:16 WHAETHGAIYUIAGGVKLJEUG 18:09:18 oklopol: dude, use it from idle, it'd be nicer prolly 18:09:20 i'm going to destroy 18:09:58 -!- VelcroMan has left (?). 18:10:28 okay what, now it seems it's compiling 18:10:30 oklopol: yeah you can just remove the readline line and then do 18:10:32 import cluetest 18:10:34 in idle 18:10:36 and it works great 18:10:40 then .load ski.clue 18:11:47 might be nice if you got some sort of sensible output from the compiler if you asked 18:12:03 oklopol: eh? 18:12:09 .load printso ut all the compiled ASTs 18:12:10 *prints out 18:12:12 in the repl 18:12:16 i mean during compilation 18:12:19 ski is still compiling 18:12:20 .show foo is also useful 18:12:21 oklopol: right 18:12:29 oklopol: i might add that, once I can figure out whether the breakage is yours or mine :> 18:12:32 and then fix it 18:12:33 actually it's taking so long i doubt it'll actually happen 18:12:42 oklopol: did you enable destructing 18:12:58 demolishing i mena 18:12:59 mean 18:13:15 no, but when i enable it, it gives the compile error, it seems 18:13:22 oklopol: what error? 18:13:27 Traceback (most recent call last): 18:13:28 File "", line 1, in 18:13:28 import cluetest 18:13:28 File "C:\stuff\clue\cluetest.py", line 55, in 18:13:28 refresh() 18:13:28 File "C:\stuff\clue\cluetest.py", line 48, in refresh 18:13:28 funcs,asts=clue.compile_all(open(filename).read(),stuff.funcs) 18:13:29 File "C:\stuff\clue\clue.py", line 708, in compile_all 18:13:29 [i+"("+unfounds[i]+")" for i in compilees if not compilees[i].iscompiled])) 18:13:30 Exception: Can't compile deep first with cutoff(depth of first), depth of first(inc), ski type?(depth of first), ski apply(ski type?) 18:13:35 oklopol: change inc to succ 18:13:36 in ski 18:13:38 it's another bug 18:13:38 :p 18:13:41 (fixed in mine) 18:13:41 oh hah 18:14:00 what a clear error message 18:14:07 "i can't compile!" 18:14:11 yeah it should probably be topographically sorted or sth 18:14:16 :p 18:14:17 it is 18:14:25 it is? 18:14:32 yes 18:14:32 inc would be last, if that were so 18:14:36 oh umm 18:14:39 :P 18:14:41 or first 18:14:53 yeah not sorted in that message, but compilation of course sorts 18:15:07 because you can't compile if there's an uncompiled function in your bag 18:15:16 rigght 18:15:17 *right 18:15:55 ---- depth of first 18:15:55 [is list?(#0)] 18:15:55 | 0 => 0 18:15:55 | 1 => succ(@(car(#0))) 18:15:59 was it this one? 18:16:29 oklopol: no, deep first 18:17:20 lemme look 18:17:31 ---- deep first 18:17:31 [is list?(#0)] 18:17:31 | 0 => #0 18:17:31 | 1 => @(car(#0)) 18:17:35 sry 18:17:40 oklopol: ff 18:17:43 ok so i added a bug in 18:17:44 will fix soon 18:17:47 writing a clue editor first 18:17:49 (emacs mode = too hard) 18:17:53 :) 18:17:57 it's gonna be schwoot 18:19:21 lambdas would not only allow cheating, they would also make functions significantly uglier, because you'd have your clue cluttered with completely meaningless snippets of dataflow 18:19:42 cheating :D 18:19:49 best user-hostile language veer 18:19:54 :D 18:20:40 you wouldn't lose stuff like being able to flip the sign of compare tho 18:20:45 hey actually 18:21:08 what about like [1, 2, 3] -> [2, 3] -> [3] for cddr for instance 18:21:40 with the meaning that the middle objects are just hints, "this object is useful!" 18:21:41 oklopol: for recursion you mean? 18:21:47 oklopol: oh, i see 18:21:53 oklopol: that owuld be nice but what semantics would it have 18:21:54 *would 18:22:03 no semantics. 18:22:06 :D 18:22:09 i mean 18:22:16 at the level of what functions compile to 18:22:35 more like standardized compiler directive 18:22:49 $class = 'Database' . ucfirst($wgDBtype); 18:22:49 $db = new $class( $this->backupServer(), $wgDBadminuser, $wgDBadminpassword, $wgDBname, false, $flags ); 18:22:57 j-invariant: OH GOD STOP IT 18:23:03 AAAAAAAAH 18:23:06 $wgDBtype is something like 'SQL' or 'PGSQL' 18:23:10 STOP 18:23:12 STOPSTOPSTPOSTSPTJSPOTJSOPTJOPSTJOPSJTPOSJTPESRJGOIDKLFGMLKHFGJ 18:23:17 and there are classes DatabaseSQL and DatabasePGSQL 18:23:19 * elliott vomits 18:23:21 * elliott vomtvomtvoimtits 18:23:24 basically, my idea was that in a_1 -> ... -> a_n, first a_2 would be found using a_1, then all state would be dropped, and another search would be started for a_3 from a_1 and a_2 18:24:05 which sounds really stupid of course, dropping state essentially means you'll make the same objects again :D 18:24:37 but, you would've sort of reached a milestone 18:25:04 also, btw, it should definitely be possible to ask the compiler that the bottleneck is 18:25:09 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:25:27 ey 18:25:27 i mean, there are a fixed number of searches, you could just make them store compilation times automatically 18:26:37 elliott: you removed the check for default==None between 18:26:37 if i.value==None: 18:26:38 default=i 18:26:38 return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim) 18:27:04 for i in clue.branches: 18:27:04 if i.istest():continue 18:27:04 if i.value==value: 18:27:05 return call_branch(clue,i,args,depth_lim) 18:27:07 if i.value==None: 18:27:09 default=i 18:27:11 return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim) 18:27:13 did I 18:27:21 i think so 18:27:33 oklopol: well that's my clue.py 18:27:36 so i don't see how :P 18:27:50 i have 18:27:51 if default==None: 18:27:51 default=clue.branches[len(clue.branches)-1] 18:27:51 return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim) 18:28:06 i think i mentioned this to you, but it may have been a change after you last got my code 18:28:17 i know, i know 18:28:23 that [-1] thing you're gonna mention 18:28:49 that change means that all functions are total. 18:28:59 currently, it's possible they are inferred non-total 18:29:19 that is, it's possible that there is actually no default branch, now the default branch is the last one 18:29:36 ! should be used for failure explicitly, should be easy to add 18:32:32 one way is that ! is just added as a separate object in the clue object parser, and it simply evaluates to a None. 18:32:44 i believe that'd do the trick 18:32:46 oklopol: i'm pretty confused now 18:33:06 about what 18:33:11 everything :D 18:33:16 Phantom__Hoover, how many blocks would ROU be now again when finished. Approx? 18:33:18 okay 18:33:24 oklopol: can i have your .pys 18:33:36 Vorpal, IIRC it was 10,000 or so for the hull. 18:33:48 the important thing: add "if default==None:default=clue.branches[len(clue.branches)-1]" 18:33:50 Phantom__Hoover, ah and why didn't movecraft work for this? 18:34:15 i haven't done any changes to my old files, or your files, but you can have my old files if you really want to. 18:34:28 Vorpal, it has a built-in threshold of 1000 blocks; this is changeable, apparently, but I have a suspicion it'd clobber the memory and CPU to actually move something that big. 18:35:10 Phantom__Hoover, right. So making that castle I'm building on my local test server (because single player is horribly laggy since beta) fly is not realistic then 18:35:28 Phantom__Hoover, it has over 60000 obsidian alone :) 18:35:37 Vorpal, probably not. 18:36:05 Also, the algorithm for separating the ship from everything else would probably mess it up. 18:36:19 * Sgeo gets a headache trying to talk to someone 18:36:29 Phantom__Hoover, and iirc over 500 000 stone (though hard to measure with such tools, the terrain below it is very uneven. 18:36:30 [Not Alluded-To] 18:36:54 (I guess anything between 150 000 and 400 000 is part of the proper castle) 18:36:59 Vorpal, stone and dirt aren't incorporated into ships. 18:37:08 Phantom__Hoover, oh well. 18:37:15 elliott: so where is the printing of the compiler output done? 18:37:27 oklopol: cluetest.py 18:37:28 oklopol: but er 18:37:33 oklopol: i've kinda rewritten that in my version 18:37:38 if you're going to change it thennn :P 18:37:42 Phantom__Hoover, wait, I'm testing it right now and I could place a stone block on top o my none-stone and it worked 18:37:50 i just want to know where the #x's come from 18:38:01 clearly your output lacks their origin 18:38:04 Phantom__Hoover, however, stone below or to the sides were not included 18:38:07 Vorpal, was the stone moved with it? 18:38:08 -!- BMG has joined. 18:38:10 Phantom__Hoover, yes 18:38:13 probably because neither of us knows what they even are 18:38:15 Huh. 18:38:17 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 18:38:17 -!- BMG has joined. 18:38:19 Phantom__Hoover, but only if placed more or less inside the craft 18:38:20 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 18:38:24 Phantom__Hoover, (it was a ship) 18:38:37 what's a none-stone 18:38:42 -!- drakhan has quit (Quit: Wychodzi). 18:39:13 elliott, any block that is not a stone (and implicitly in this context: not air or a fluid either) 18:39:39 I think this person's text messaging stuff is delayed by a few messages 18:39:53 And for some reason, her texts include my text. 18:40:51 Vorpal, the other reason a flying castle is impractical: MoveCraft empties chests. 18:40:59 elliott, what is the largest structure known to have been done in MC so far? Largest as in most blocks placed. 18:41:08 -!- drakhan has joined. 18:41:15 Phantom__Hoover, ah yes that is indeed a known bug 18:41:19 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:41:23 Phantom__Hoover, at least it is on the todo-list 18:41:53 Phantom__Hoover, also it doesn't rotate crafts yet. Meaning you better make it rotationally symmetric for now 18:42:06 Vorpal: dunno 18:42:24 oklopol: my clue editor is a total nazi 18:42:30 oklopol: it reformats your code every time you do anything :D 18:42:45 * Sgeo fantasizes about war on a MoveCraft server 18:42:59 Sgeo, it screws up TNT cannons as well. 18:43:00 -shutup- Shut up about your fantasies! 18:43:02 elliott, what about largest bounding box (in a single direction) 18:43:07 Phantom__Hoover, aww, darn 18:43:40 Although I was thinking more of dropping TNT from ships than cannons on.. no, I was thinking cannons on ships too, more for defense 18:43:43 What is it with the people who act like playing MC on peaceful is a personal insult? 18:43:45 elliott, considering something like a 1x1x4000 cobbblestone thingy 18:43:48 bb* 18:44:29 -shutup- Shut up about your fantasies! <-- just ignore it, that /me you did above was perfectly okay IMO 18:44:49 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Difficulty 18:44:58 [[ * Notch made a tweet on October 22nd 2010, stating that "I'm changing "difficulty" to "realism". Lowest setting = creative. Highest setting = starve" ]] 18:45:08 -!- cheater00 has joined. 18:45:10 'Cos obviously difficulty == realism! 18:45:17 Phantom__Hoover, haven't happened so far yeah 18:45:32 Notch is just like me1 18:45:34 Phantom__Hoover: that's the one thing i'd change about mc 18:45:40 [In the always taking hiatuses aspect] 18:45:41 thank god notch noticed it 18:46:08 elliott: so umm the #'s are just helper objects + inputs + subrec outputs, as one might imagine 18:46:15 it says so quite clearly in your code 18:46:20 oklopol: sure but there's more than there should be :D 18:46:25 Phantom__Hoover, btw craftbook is cool 18:46:27 oklopol: for instance #1 and #2 in ski apply 18:46:31 Because it's completely unrealistic not to have malicious creatures unrelentingly stalk you during the night 18:46:33 ski apply has no helpers 18:46:33 *! 18:46:39 and those are _inside_ the subrec _inputs_ 18:47:03 Phantom__Hoover, I have portcullises that can open and such now 18:47:11 well subrec inputs can be calculated from outputs of previous subrecs 18:47:15 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:47:16 so i don't see what the problem is 18:48:10 in ski apply, when #1 and #2 are used, they refer to the outputs of the first and second subrec, and they are first used in the third case 18:48:53 wait what 18:48:55 oklopol: right! but #1 and #2 should get inlined 18:49:01 to be @(...) things 18:49:05 but they're not?? 18:49:08 OH 18:49:14 rrrrrrright i was being a retard 18:49:19 nrpls['#'+str(i.get_arity()+len(clue.helper_objs)+sub)] = past(rrgs,rpls) 18:49:21 i mean 18:49:23 notice the lack of using nrpls there 18:49:28 i was thinking like of a completely different thing 18:49:49 :P 18:50:46 why do you rename to nrpls midway? 18:51:08 hmm 18:51:13 because 18:51:15 it only applies for that one branch 18:51:25 (a) => [ski type?(a)] 18:51:25 | 0 => a 18:51:25 | 1 => @(car(cdr(a))) 18:51:27 | 2 => @(cadar(a)) 18:51:28 | 3 => @(pair(#1 #2)) 18:51:30 | 4 => @(pair(#1 ski type?(cdr(a)))) 18:51:32 bugger, still doesn't work 18:52:07 oh right 18:52:27 Phantom__Hoover, movecraft fails at shadows. There is a shadow matching my aircraft on ground. Far from where the aircraft actually is currently 18:52:45 rrgs.append(past(i.getsubast(sub,ar),rpls)) should use nrpls 18:52:48 Vorpal, that's probably MC failing, actually. 18:52:59 hm could be 18:53:27 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:53:30 Hi :-) 18:53:37 hi 18:54:34 elliott: well, did you fix it? 18:54:54 oklopol: done 18:55:02 testing now 18:55:05 Phantom__Hoover, also why does lightstone give shadows on ground 18:55:16 since it is as bright as the sun... 18:55:30 Vorpal, yes, but it has z-axis attenuation, while the sun doesn't. 18:55:41 Phantom__Hoover, good point 18:57:08 | 3 => @(pair(@(pair(cadaar(a) ski type?(cdr(a)))) @(pair(cadar(a) ski type?(cdr(a)))))) 18:57:09 Phantom__Hoover, hm flying minecart. That should be possible to make smooth 18:57:09 oklopol: hooray 18:57:21 :S 18:57:24 oh 18:57:26 ---- deep first 18:57:27 (a) => [is list?(a)] 18:57:27 | 0 => a 18:57:29 | 1 => @(car(a)) 18:57:29 oklopol: what... 18:57:33 * Sgeo imagines huge Obsidian bunkers, for things such as mining flint from gravel 18:57:34 Phantom__Hoover, or flying boat (boat as in boat-crafted-in-workbench) 18:57:34 wait what, it actually infers that whole thing? 18:57:36 oklopol: turning on destructing makes it do the bad version, I think 18:57:37 Vorpal, did you try to move a craft with a minecart on it? 18:58:01 Phantom__Hoover, I haven't 18:58:09 In theory, with time+patience, all gravel can be turned into flint? 18:58:17 I doubt it'll work. 18:58:19 Sgeo, yes. 18:58:21 Phantom__Hoover, but I wonder. if you could not make smooth movements instead of the one block at a time thing 18:58:21 elliott: no it doesn't, at least in mine 18:58:23 using one of those 18:58:25 Phantom__Hoover, with a mod 18:58:29 i can't even compile ski without demolishing 18:58:33 if default is None: 18:58:33 default=clue.branches[len(clue.branches)-1] 18:58:33 ^^ so do I want to add this in? 18:58:49 done, let's see if it does anything 18:58:51 Vorpal, not without radical alterations to MC, which is outside the scope of hMod's plugin architecture. 18:58:53 Phantom__Hoover, you can get flying boat when you time out and are in a boat and falling down. So clearly it will work on the client side 18:59:04 Hmmm... does anyone know how I can work out the position of the rightmost 1 bit without using bitwise operations? (n & -n normally does the trick) 18:59:15 ---- deep first 18:59:15 (a) => [car(a)] 18:59:15 | _ => a 18:59:16 | _ => @(car(a)) 18:59:20 oklopol: that's WITH your fix, can i have your clue.py and stuff.py? 18:59:21 elliott: after adding that, the order of examples matters, which i'm not sure i like 18:59:23 to see where ours differ 18:59:28 but it's better than not having it, still 18:59:31 ew no, i don't like tht 18:59:31 that 18:59:33 i'm removing it :D 18:59:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:00:11 impomatic, n & -n assumes two-complement doesn't it? 19:00:37 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:00:56 Vorpal: yes, that's one of the problems. 19:01:15 impomatic, hah! And here I was trying to make a silly remark :P 19:01:17 elliott: okay, in that case make it return None, otherwise it'll be order-dependent anyway 19:01:31 impomatic, now I'm interested, what language or platform are you targeting here? 19:01:36 oklopol: oaky 19:01:39 if you make it return None, you basically have an implicit default branch that fails. 19:01:46 vorpal: redcode :-) 19:01:49 hmm 19:01:52 ---- deep first 19:01:52 (a) => [car(a)] 19:01:52 | _ => a 19:01:53 | _ => @(car(a)) 19:01:54 impomatic, hm 19:01:55 oklopol: still does it though :) 19:02:33 i really think you should have that order-dependence thing, actually, it just makes everything so much simpler. 19:03:09 Vorpal: I'm optimizing a non-recursive program to draw this: http://twitpic.com/3nt74q 19:03:11 elliott: well i dunno, why didn't you save your old code so i don't have to up it 19:03:20 oklopol: oh i did 19:03:24 oklopol: but you've evidently changed it :> 19:04:00 impomatic, why not make it recursive 19:04:00 i haven't 19:04:02 Hmmm... pastebin.ca has been inaccessible here for a couple of days :-( 19:04:10 oklopol: well i didn't remove that defaulting thing 19:04:11 impomatic, also what sort of signed integers does redcode use? 19:04:17 oklopol: so you must have added it? :/ 19:04:44 impomatic, use sprunge.us 19:04:49 impomatic, it is good, and loads faster 19:05:50 Vorpal: I have a recursive program too... Redcode only has positive numbers. -x is represented as CORESIZE-x. In a normal core -1 is 7999 19:06:00 elliott: i haven't touched it 19:06:04 impomatic, that's so wtf 19:06:16 well i may have, but it's unlikely that i have, more likely that the universe has a bug 19:06:34 :-) 19:06:43 oklopol: :D 19:06:56 impomatic, why is it not a power of 2? Everything is better as a power of 2. No exceptions except for the exception that ternary is awesome. 19:07:16 oklopol: should i make the editor automatically turn .. into : 19:07:24 upon my files says roughly so: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5657189962.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9156561368.txt 19:07:24 oklopol: you type .., it becomes :, type a ., it becomes :., type a dot, it becomes :: 19:07:45 Vorpal: coresize can be any value, but historically it's been 8000. 19:07:46 ...what? :D 19:07:50 oklopol: in the editor1 19:07:51 *editor! 19:07:52 oklopol: should i make the editor automatically turn .. into : oklopol: should i make the editor automatically turn .. into : <-- what for? 19:07:52 cled 19:07:59 Vorpal: they are equivalent in clue 19:08:00 so... how do you get a dot then? :D 19:08:12 oklopol: don't type an even number of them, duh! 19:08:22 oh lol 19:08:25 oklopol: it's keeping your code to the Clue Standardisation Board's recommendations for colon and dot entry 19:08:27 yeah i well whatev 19:08:32 THIS IS IMPORTANT DUDE 19:08:44 sure 19:08:45 elliott, yes but why do you want to enforce using one them rather than the other 19:08:57 - if default is None: 19:08:57 - return None 19:08:57 + if default==None:default=clue.branches[-1] 19:09:00 hehe 19:09:17 well yeah obviously i added that one 19:09:26 mine is so much better 19:09:28 order is so impure 19:09:34 elliott, wait, are you using a VCS now? 19:09:48 no 19:09:52 i'm using diff 19:09:57 ah 19:10:10 well, see, yours has the slight disadvantage that you can't write *any* functions with just one example in each hint 19:10:13 oklopol: okay our versions have no notable differences to speak of other than the exception-catching :D 19:10:14 erm 19:10:18 in each branch 19:10:31 oklopol: well... come up with an algo that isn't order-based, any algo 19:10:32 (not random :P) 19:10:34 and i'll use it 19:10:46 Hmm 19:10:59 Water spouts are apparently quite resistent to explosions 19:11:01 there is no way 19:11:11 elliott, order for what? 19:11:13 no simple way at least 19:11:17 things 19:11:19 oklopol: are you sure 19:11:26 oklopol: maybe default branches need syntax :/ 19:11:32 one way would be to have *drumroll* conditions 19:11:36 or maybe, you know, man up and add another case 19:11:39 elliott, are you trying to decide which order to try things in? 19:11:42 because... 19:11:44 i mean 19:11:46 if you only have one case 19:11:49 stuff breaks a lot anyway :P 19:11:54 'cuz it likes to hardcode 19:11:54 that was actually one of the reasons i had conditions, i just forgot about it 19:12:02 oklopol: who cares, SO IMPURE 19:12:06 yeah syntax for defaults is very much okay 19:12:50 elliott, what are conditions in this context and why are they impure? 19:12:55 things 19:12:57 and because lame 19:13:07 oklopol: ofc it breaks down when you have complex conditions nayway 19:13:12 gee, being unhelpful 19:13:14 oklopol: i don't see what's wrong with needing two example cases 19:13:15 oklopol: i mean 19:13:20 oklopol: if you just do 19:13:22 Vorpal: a condition is a function used as the parameter of the switch statement that is the body of each function. 19:13:22 . 0 1 -> 1 19:13:28 oklopol: it'll probably hardcode the 1 or something stupid like that 19:13:30 oklopol, thank you 19:13:31 in a lot of cases 19:13:54 oklopol, why would they be impure though? 19:14:01 they were removed in the form they existed in the first version of clue, and were replaced with something else, but this is slightly technical. 19:14:11 oklopol, can they have side effects? 19:14:12 If you have a bunch of TNT together, does it make a stronger explosion or not? 19:14:35 basically, you used to be able to give the toplevel function, like you could say you switch on the value of f, switch(f(...)), but ... may be guessed by the compiler in any way 19:14:40 Vorpal: no. 19:14:52 oklopol, so in what sense are they impure? 19:15:10 subjective 19:15:20 oklopol, ah 19:15:25 they are code written by the programmer 19:15:31 hah 19:15:36 Jan 08 20:51:23 Gregor's apples to oranges comparision convinced me to like oranges // I win forever? :P 19:15:44 oklopol, but in a sense the examples is code written by the programmer. 19:15:46 for instance, if the output format of that function f was changed, it's possible that it can't directly be used to branch anymore. 19:16:01 so the compiler should be allowed to do post-processing on the value of f 19:16:06 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:16:12 so it's impure in a very precise sense. 19:16:57 hm okay 19:17:00 Vorpal: examples are code written by the programmer in a sense, sure. but the sense i'm referring to is the one that breaks the ability to change output and input protocol. 19:17:10 which is one of the points of clue 19:17:25 you don't even have to read the api, as long as you know what the functions do on an intuitive level 19:17:38 of course this would only be true if the compiler was 100 times faster than mine 19:19:14 elliott: nothing wrong with needing two example cases i guess 19:19:16 :P 19:19:48 oklopol: my editor is... so nazi 19:19:54 it's actually kinda scary 19:19:55 would it be wrong if 1) if there's only one branch, it's always default 2) if there's exactly one recursion, it's default if no one else is 19:20:01 you can't insert more than one space in a row 19:20:06 oklopol: yeah that sounds ok 19:20:12 oklopol: since... you can't get base case recursion :D 19:20:16 that would be nice and practical, but kind of impure. 19:20:22 oklopol: would it? 19:20:27 oklopol: recursion to me basically IMPLIES some defaultness 19:20:30 oklopol, hm okay 19:20:34 oklopol: and one branch is default by basically definition 19:20:45 yeah 19:20:52 those are *very* natural, in actual programs 19:20:53 i'll impl that after cled works :D 19:21:08 oklopol: well i even think "random" functions obey that too 19:21:10 people would basically just assume them anyway. 19:21:12 base cases don't recurse, by definition 19:21:18 and recursion is walking towards a base case 19:21:23 anything that isn't a base case, covers a range of values 19:21:25 and is thus a default 19:21:31 yeah but 19:21:36 you can't insert more than one space in a row <-- how do you indent then? 19:21:40 you could have some function used for branching 19:21:45 elliott, also what editor is this? leaden? 19:21:50 Vorpal: no, cled 19:21:52 also, it indents for you 19:21:55 everything is automatic 19:21:56 EVERYTHING 19:21:56 elliott, cled being? 19:21:57 and you could have an infinite number of base cases, say all the cases where that function gives a positive number 19:22:08 CLuEDitor 19:22:09 and if the function gives you a 0, it means you haven't found the result yet, and have to recurse 19:22:19 elliott, is it an emacs mode? 19:22:24 in that case it'd be the base case that's defaul 19:22:25 oklopol: so add more than one example :> 19:22:25 t 19:22:31 Vorpal: no, i decided it would be way too hard like that 19:22:49 sure sure, i'm just saying it's technically possible to have a base case be the natural default 19:23:01 but then you'd just need to tell the compiler that by having two examples. 19:23:04 oklopol: it's more pure than assuming the last is default, let's put it that way. 19:23:12 elliott, hm, Is it ncurses-based? 19:23:15 about 42 times purer. 19:23:18 Vorpal: no, tk(inter) 19:23:21 but it's not total! :D 19:23:21 elliott, ah 19:23:24 because it's convenient in python 19:23:28 and not _hideously_ ugly on os x / windows 19:23:38 the whole UI is a text box with a scrollbar to the right anyway 19:23:44 so it won't even be too horrid on x11 :) 19:23:46 elliott, it is rather ugly on linux though 19:23:49 *x11 19:24:05 elliott, Tk scrollbars are ugly on linux 19:24:18 elliott, do you use that theme thingy whatever it was called 19:24:22 Vorpal: no 19:24:27 elliott, why not 19:24:33 don't think tkinter can do that. 19:24:35 i don't really care how ugly a single scrollbar is anyway :P 19:24:50 elliott, wait, you don't care about aesthetics? 19:25:00 not for cled 19:25:00 ! 19:25:07 elliott, how unlike you! 19:27:51 elliott, last xkcd is so sad, but the title text was actually quite funny. 19:29:20 "If you look at these languages in order, Java, Perl, Python, you notice an interesting pattern. At least, you notice this pattern if you are a Lisp hacker. Each one is progressively more like Lisp. Python copies even features that many Lisp hackers consider to be mistakes. You could translate simple Lisp programs into Python line for line. It's 2002, and programming languages have almost caught up with 1958." 19:29:32 [[Nevertheless, some historians still consider it was Hilliard who won that dude battle.]] 19:29:37 BEST WIKIPEDIA QUOTE EVER 19:29:42 No, wait, it isn't 19:29:54 j-invariant, where is that quote from? 19:30:05 [[Fukutsuru died in 2005 but his frozen sperm lived on for people’s benefit.]] 19:30:14 THAT is the best Wikipedia quote ever. 19:32:34 TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects 19:32:36 wait,what... 19:32:54 *wait, what 19:33:02 -!- TLUL has joined. 19:33:18 j-invariant: you could translate simple haskell programs into dofigj line for line. it's 2032, and programming languages have almost caught up with 1994. 19:34:30 elliott, I wish I lived in such a world 19:34:53 text.delete("1.0+%dc" % idx+1, "1.0+%dc" % spc) 19:34:53 TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects 19:34:54 wtfff. 19:34:55 idx is an int. 19:38:42 A good argument for Better Grass: http://i.imgur.com/82ndJ.jpg 19:39:17 Vorpal: have you tried http://www.largames.com/lartexture? 19:39:25 hey the graphics look different 19:39:36 j-invariant, j-invariant, where is that quote from? 19:39:48 j-invariant: different texture pack 19:39:49 also a mod 19:40:37 elliott, it looks rather flat somehow. I prefer something suggesting a real world rather than something suggestion a flat mario64-like world. But sure I'll try it some day. 19:40:50 but it is flat. 19:41:23 elliott, uh and? I don't want the texture to make it look flatter than the default texture pack does 19:41:38 It doesn't ... 19:41:46 elliott, to me it looks that way 19:41:55 from the screenshots 19:42:16 oklopol: 19:42:17 text.delete("1.0+%dc" % idx+1, "1.0+%dc" % spc) 19:42:17 TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects 19:42:18 seriously wtf 19:42:21 idx is an int 19:42:36 ohhh 19:42:38 need parens 19:45:42 oklopol: it would be nice if compilations could be written to a file 19:45:46 even if just with pickle 19:45:48 or marshal 19:46:02 obviously 19:46:30 it could even check that the compilation is correct 19:46:38 oklopol: :P 19:46:39 FOR FUN 19:46:59 I thought it was correct by construction 19:47:06 oklopol: i think i'm gonna make cled hold the program as a structure in memory and just write it as a string all the time... 19:47:12 and respond to keypresses :P 19:47:13 it'd be simpler 19:47:37 i have to go shoppe 19:52:37 -!- cheater- has joined. 19:55:16 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:55:53 oklopol: i just realised that if i make it hold it as an object i get to make a terrible terrible semantic ui for it 19:55:58 oklopol: you are gonna use this to write all your programs right :D 19:57:09 hey Vorpal how do you make an emacs mode 19:57:27 elliott, by writing elisp and reading docs. 19:57:39 are you making an emacs mode for Clue? 19:57:40 elliott, I haven't done it. I have tweaked existing ones however 19:57:43 Vorpal: yes, but, without the second thing 19:57:50 j-invariant: well. i'm writing an editor program BUT 19:57:51 j-invariant, you never answered: j-invariant, j-invariant, where is that quote from? 19:57:55 it might be easier to do it as an emacs mode :D 19:57:58 Vorpal: pg. 19:58:06 elliott, "pg"? 19:58:09 pg. 19:58:21 elliott, as in postgresql command binary prefix? 19:58:26 elliott, that is all I know it as :P 19:58:30 emacs modes tend to have a certain format: They have a syntax hilighter table and such 19:58:35 elliott, so what do you mean by pg 19:58:46 paul g 19:58:46 pol grayam 19:58:50 elliott, ah 19:58:54 pearly graham crackers 19:59:13 j-invariant: yeah but in this case I want auto-indentation which is less than trivial for clue 19:59:16 because it depends on the first line of the block 19:59:18 specifically the length of the name 19:59:54 elliott, I believe some modes manage such auto indention 19:59:59 I can't remember which ones 20:00:26 well yeah but i want to do it easily :D 20:01:48 you lazy 20:01:57 oklopol: question! 20:01:58 elliott, insert fitting can-only-have-2-out-of-3 statement here 20:02:04 eh actually i have no question really 20:02:07 (I can be lazy too) 20:02:18 oklopol: ok question 20:02:26 oklopol: what's the max number of examples you'd put on one line 20:02:26 kebab place was the complement of a set containing an open ball arouns each of its points :( 20:02:27 two? 20:02:44 two or three 20:02:50 i mean 20:03:11 i can imagine something like . number -> number more than twice on one line 20:04:31 yeah 20:04:38 i'll make it 20:04:42 less than five, so long as the result is less than 50 chars 20:04:49 why limit it? 20:04:49 or actually 40 20:04:49 -!- impomatic has left (?). 20:04:56 oklopol: because really long lines are ugly 20:04:59 oklopol: this is the auto-formatter 20:05:09 oh right because ur editor hates jews 20:05:10 oklopol: cled has kinda morphed into this thing where you edit the bags and branches and stuff as actual objects 20:05:15 oklopol: and it just reads and writes to the files 20:05:19 in the background 20:05:23 oklopol: you know... like oklOS :D 20:05:32 :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 20:05:37 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:09:19 oklopol: should i make it impossible to put a function that doesn't exist into the bag :D 20:09:23 nah, that's excessive. probably 20:09:34 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:10:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:15:12 Mmm, snow. 20:16:54 oklopol: 20:16:56 more than 3 ~ {. 0 -> 0 } 20:16:56 more than 3 ~ {. 1 -> 0 } 20:16:56 more than 3 ~ {. 2 -> 0 } 20:16:59 more than 3 ~ {. 3 -> 0 } 20:17:01 more than 3 ~ {. 4 -> 1 . 5 -> 1 } 20:17:03 more than 3 ~ 0; 1 20:17:05 oklopol: written by a program :D 20:19:18 now add a feature where you can write a function, and it's compiled into examples 20:19:20 :D 20:19:24 oklopol: :D 20:19:37 oklopol: that would officially be the most pointless combination of programs in existence 20:19:41 haha 20:19:50 oklopol: i'm considering never putting more than one example on a line... 20:19:53 it's... always kinda ugly 20:22:39 depth of first ~ {. 0 -> 0 . 5 -> 0 } 20:22:39 depth of first ~ {:. [[1 2] [3 4]] -> 2 20:22:39 : [1 2] -> 1 20:22:41 :. [[[1 2 3] 4] 5] -> 3 20:22:43 : [[1 2 3] 4] -> 2 } 20:22:45 depth of first ~ is list?; cons; car; cdr; succ; 0 20:22:47 oklopol: written by a program :D 20:24:40 nice 20:25:21 oklopol: i think we should just make this the new official syntax for clue: http://sprunge.us/HXGG 20:25:26 also by written, I mean turned into text, obviously 20:25:29 it didn't actually write the program 20:25:32 although that would be nice 20:25:51 oklopol: ooh i'ma make the bag into a set. 20:28:31 in what sense? 20:30:36 oklopol: um in that it's a python set :D 20:30:41 and ordered when it gets turned into a string 20:31:10 err okay, that sounds like a reeeeally useful change 20:31:35 but i suppose it means you can't use order for optimization, which is good because the order shouldn't be meaningful. 20:31:55 oklopol: oh no no i don't mean in clue.py 20:31:57 i mean in cled 20:32:05 the semantic CluEDitor! 20:32:19 oklopol: you have to tell me now that you're gonna use this thing to write all your clue programs, even though it's crazy :D 20:32:26 oh heeh go for it. 20:32:27 TI-83+ is weird, it has orthogonal persistence when turning off due to no key being pressed after a number of minutes. But if you manually turn it off you get back to the basic "shell screen" (for lack of better name) next time you turn it on. 20:32:30 There's a film adaptation of Asimov's Foundation series coming. 20:32:32 i'll consider it. 20:32:32 :'( 20:32:46 I could not get into that book at all 20:32:48 elliott, ^ 20:32:54 Vorpal: heh 20:32:58 the first bit was cool but it started dragging and dragging..... 20:33:11 pikhq: I want to be a filmmaker for the sole purpose of making Ed stories and Fine Structure into films. 20:33:23 To be directed by Roland Emmerich. 20:33:27 (Yes, I have considered how to depict Unbelievable Scenes.) 20:33:47 pikhq: 2012: It's a Disaster! 20:33:57 You may know him for really, really *stupid* films, such as Independence Day and The Day After Tomorrow. 20:34:08 And, yes, 2012. 20:34:20 pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW2qxFkcLM0 20:35:50 So, if this adaptation is any good at all, it will be a miracle that psychohistory could not predict at all. 20:35:55 To be directed by Roland Emmerich. ← NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:36:30 Phantom__Hoover: At least it's not Uwe Boll. 20:36:48 pikhq, that wouldn't be much worse! 20:36:53 pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZhBParVjo 20:36:59 Phantom__Hoover: Yes it would. 20:36:59 erm 20:37:00 At least with Uwe Boll we would know everyone would hate it! 20:37:00 wrong link 20:37:02 Yes it would. 20:37:05 pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW2qxFkcLM0 20:37:15 elliott: Hah. 20:37:18 pikhq, Emmerich is a major director. 20:37:28 His film will be well-funded and widely promoted. 20:37:29 SO IS UWE BOLL 20:37:36 People will *see* it. 20:37:40 People I know IRL. 20:37:58 People who will not have read the book and will not see the film for the dross it will inevitably be. 20:38:19 Phantom__Hoover: THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I HAVE TO FILM ED STORIES AND FINE STRUCTURE. 20:38:32 elliott, you haven't read the latter! 20:38:32 OTHERWISE SOMEBODY, SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE, WHEN SAM HUGHES IS DEAD BUT INCREDIBLY POPULAR, SOMEONE WILL MAKE A FILM OF THEM 20:38:34 AND IT WILL _SUCK_ 20:38:40 Phantom__Hoover: I've read, like, over half of it! 20:38:46 Shame we can't resurrect Kubrick and have him do it. 20:38:54 Phantom__Hoover: Really though it'd be a worthy film even just with Unbelievable Scenes and 1970—. 20:38:58 Ed would really be better as an episodic miniseries thing. 20:39:10 Phantom__Hoover: At the start... but not Be Here Now onwards. 20:39:12 And FS would not compress into an average-length film. 20:39:17 At all. 20:39:28 Phantom__Hoover: Who said anything about "average-length"? 20:39:37 How would you even go about turning FS into a film/ 20:39:40 Phantom__Hoover: Up to The Story So Far fits into my head-film with plenty of space left. 20:39:41 pikhq, there is an upper limit on film length. 20:39:42 It'll be a 12 hour cinematic experience, I'm sure. 20:39:53 Phantom__Hoover: People watch LotR in a single sitting. 20:39:55 Phantom__Hoover: 3 hours, maybe? 20:39:57 Any further questions? 20:39:59 To three and a half. 20:40:04 That's not unheard of. 20:40:06 pikhq, that is two hours longer than the total length of LoTR. 20:40:10 And it's epic enough. 20:40:15 Phantom__Hoover: Not the extended editions. 20:40:32 Phantom__Hoover: If you can tell me why FS can't fit into three and a half hours without spoiling past The Story So Far, go ahead. 20:40:33 LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. 20:40:58 LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary. 20:41:02 >:D 20:41:34 Anyway, with enough rejiggling of the starting bits (adding filler/transitions), Ed Stories could work as a film, I think. 20:41:35 `addquote LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary. 20:41:43 Or maybe it could be in medias res. 20:41:52 Starting with that moment where Ed calls up and says "hey, what did I ever invent that could work". 20:42:05 Each invention leading to a flashback of the relevant short story. And then work Be Here Now into there somehow. 20:42:09 263) LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary. 20:42:23 I'm too lazy to fix it 20:42:25 what. 20:42:31 Gregor: what manner of witchery is this. 20:42:34 also, "pikh" 20:42:37 try delquote 20:42:47 pikhq, I actually found the Silmarillion less dreary than LoTR because of that. 20:43:09 I tried to read Fellowship once, and decided that Tolkien was fucking with me about 100 to 200 pages in. 20:43:10 Phantom__Hoover: You found the Silmarillion *less* dreary. 20:43:12 *Less*. 20:43:20 Then I gave up. 20:43:23 elliott: The series is worth reading. Once. 20:43:24 It confuses me. 20:43:27 does anyoen know what I'm talking about?? 20:43:31 j-invariant: what did you say 20:43:38 (That I found it easier.) 20:43:39 pikhq: The movies themselves were fairly slow too, but fun. 20:43:47 pikhq, I was *dragging* myself through Return. 20:44:03 I wish it were public domain, so it would be legal to edit out the unneeded content. 20:44:23 regarding Foundation: the first bit was cool but it started dragging and dragging..... 20:44:26 ah 20:44:27 i haven't read it 20:44:31 And leave the poetry as an appendix, or a seperate volume, rather than IN THE FREAKING STORY. 20:44:32 I didn't make it into the good bits, I guess 20:44:33 oklopol: this is going to be soooo much of a semantic editor 20:44:37 because everyone loves that book... 20:44:39 oklopol: it's gonna be RIDICULOUS 20:44:42 j-invariant: What was the last bit you got to? 20:44:43 The movies are actually way better. 20:44:54 pikhq: I can't remember, they were making wikipedia 20:44:57 pikhq: Lord of the Rings in 500 Pages would be a great book. 20:45:14 I have some issues with the movies, but they do demonstrate that, dammit, Tolkien would be much improved with editing. 20:45:30 Though The Hobbit does this, as well. 20:45:31 elliott, until pretentious literary types start badmouthing it. 20:45:51 Phantom__Hoover: Oh, they can go to hell. They badmouthed the books until recently anyways. 20:46:14 http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/EtextChps.html what is this. 20:46:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:46:21 Because it wasn't ~deep and meaningful analysis of the human condition~? 20:47:48 Phantom__Hoover: The pretentious literary types really seem to like terrible fiction. About 50 years after it's been published. 20:48:01 Examples? 20:48:04 On occasion they like good fiction as well, but I suspect this is a fluke. 20:48:29 oklopol: this editor is going to be pretty horrible :D 20:48:36 oklopol: it's basically going to be a shitload of boxes inside other boxes 20:49:41 Phantom__Hoover: "The Grapes of Wrath", by Steinbeck. 20:50:02 That's terrible? (I wouldn't know.) 20:50:06 Phantom__Hoover: This book earned Steinbeck a Pulitzer and a Nobel Prize. 20:50:08 oklopol: 20:50:09 if default is None: 20:50:09 if len(clue.branches)==1: 20:50:10 default=clue.branches[0] 20:50:12 else: 20:50:14 recs=filter(lambda i:i.isrec(),clue.branches) 20:50:16 if len(recs)==1: 20:50:17 Every *other* chapter has plot. 20:50:18 default=recs[0] 20:50:20 else: 20:50:22 return None 20:50:24 return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim) 20:50:49 The plotless chapters are pretentious mental wanking put on a page, in the form of allegory. 20:51:25 We only have 12 years to wait 20:51:27 except for you 20:51:30 you have 42 20:51:35 lolsonnybono 20:51:56 copumpkin: By "12" or "42" you mean "infinity". 20:52:00 coppro: 6 20:52:00 elliott, other random info: a goto based loop in TI-BASIC is about 5 times slower than a for-based one. A for is about 20% faster than a while loop. 20:52:02 coppro: ^ 20:52:08 pikhq: what 20:52:12 copumpkin: YOU MEAN INFINITY DAMMIT 20:52:34 elliott: Pooppy witchery. 20:52:36 coppro: Retroactive copyright extensions happen every time Mickey Mouse is about to hit public domain. 20:52:39 pikhq: I have no clue what you meant to say there 20:52:41 who is copumpkin? 20:52:42 Gregor: Oh. 20:52:42 pikhq: oh, not here 20:52:48 Vorpal: An evil witch. 20:52:53 coppro: Correct pikh -> pikhq. 20:53:10 maybe you guys 20:53:14 we have 12 years 20:53:14 Vorpal: who is Vorpal? 20:53:35 (once I get an indication of what information you're looking for in an answer to that kind of question, I can answer yours :P) 20:53:36 coppro: This tends to be enforced by WIPO. 20:53:41 I can't find what " copumpkin: YOU MEAN INFINITY DAMMIT" was a reply to 20:53:42 pikhq: uh what 20:54:00 yet more proof you have no scrollback 20:54:24 I think they both meant coppro 20:54:25 Every 20 years or so they get a stick up their ass, become convinced copyright needs to be 20 years longer, and strongarms most of the world into compliance. 20:54:28 copumpkin, "someone new here" "someone who changed nick", "sometime who been away for many years but used to be a regular" 20:54:32 both pikhq and elliott 20:54:32 copumpkin: no 20:54:33 copumpkin, that kind of stuff 20:54:34 oh 20:54:36 copumpkin: stop lying 20:54:39 copumpkin: you mean infinit 20:54:40 y 20:54:42 and you know it's true 20:54:43 pikhq: not Canada 20:54:47 Vorpal: he's a #haskell informant. 20:54:52 Vorpal: someone who's been here for about a week or two now I think, but yeah, relatively new :P 20:55:04 coppro: Member of WIPO, as well. 20:55:10 elliott, aha 20:55:20 yeah copumpkin is a member of wipo 20:55:23 i agree 20:55:34 wipo? 20:55:38 absolutely 20:55:40 oh okay 20:56:46 copumpkin, are you the codomain of pumpkins or? 20:57:00 I'm a pumpkin in the opposite category 20:57:05 ah 20:57:54 coppro: Well I'll be. You guys haven't gone beyond the international-treaty-required-minimum of *life plus 50*. 20:58:01 pikhq: nope 20:58:03 -!- Behold has joined. 20:58:20 Which is still bullshit. 20:58:20 are we doing category theory 20:58:21 j-invariant: implement copumpkin in your category theory 20:58:23 pikhq: agreed 20:58:24 j-invariant: no 20:58:27 lol 20:58:30 I'll go back to sleep them 20:58:55 pikhq: in fact, Mickey Mouse has 6 more years here. 20:59:33 00:10:28 actually not so much lately, since i broke up with the gf, although we've been talking about being sex-buddies with an ex 20:59:33 00:11:22 (we broke up because of artistic differences) 20:59:37 More so under US copyright law, where Congress only has the power to enact copyright law for the purpose of increasing the works produced... 20:59:39 movies are ridiculously short when you get used to watching seasons of a tv series in one go 20:59:45 oklopol: *phew* i still couldn't quite see you as being in a stable, long-term relationship 20:59:50 you seem less..conflicting now 21:00:01 ^ 21:00:09 "Artistic differences"? 21:00:21 Did you disagree with her views on interior decoration? 21:00:47 (that is to say, under a strict interpretation of the US constitution, Congress *does not have the power* to create a copyright law that does not increase the amount of artistic expression.) 21:01:06 elliott: Consider this http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=VBavHxpt 21:01:06 Phantom__Hoover, artistic difference could mean so very very much when oklopol says it. 21:01:07 pikhq: have fun with that one 21:01:13 pikhq: you should sue the government 21:01:17 elliott: the problem is to write init in terms of foldr 21:01:20 (of course, under a strict interpretation of the US constitution, Congress doesn't have the power to do almost everything it does, so hey!) 21:01:25 Phantom__Hoover, consider yesterday's discussion between him and zzo for example 21:01:29 pikhq: yep 21:01:43 j-invariant: i've written functions in terms of foldr all the time 21:01:45 elliott: Maybe the methods here could be incorperated into Clue 21:01:51 lol :) 21:01:55 j-invariant: since i think that data should be represented as its foldr 21:01:55 elliott: I am pointing out that the derivation is systematic 21:01:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:01:59 as in, instead of church representation etc. 21:02:02 j-invariant: yes, indeedy 21:02:14 Hmm. Of things it commonly does, it has the power to: run the military, fund roads, run the postal service, and tax. 21:02:16 elliott: I have been watching some videos about the difference between the encodings data = ... and folds 21:02:47 j-invariant: people have already encoded data as its fold as an implementation technique? 21:02:53 and made pattern matching and recursion compile to that? 21:02:55 slitting wrists brb 21:03:00 pikhq, isn't the postal service private in US? If so that surprises me 21:03:04 what? 21:03:09 j-invariant: ? 21:03:14 elliott: it was rather stable and long-term imo 21:03:32 Vorpal: The postal service is very much public. 21:03:38 oklopol: yeah but it isn't any more, which is the good thing. also if you're somehow normal enough to get offended by me saying this, just say 21:03:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:03:45 well right 21:03:54 i get offended if you tell me i suck at math 21:03:58 elliott: You should learn uAgda: In this language we define data types by their elimination behavior and theen program with them using parametricity 21:03:58 that's it 21:04:03 pikhq, I don't know if the word exists (it probably doesn't) but that is an geochronism 21:04:09 (or whatever) 21:04:11 j-invariant: :D 21:04:14 oklopol: you suck at math 21:04:18 (probably chron has to do with time) 21:04:20 fuck you 21:04:26 oklopol: i'm jokin i'm jokin 21:04:26 (so it should be anageonism or something) 21:04:29 oklopol: u r math god 21:04:36 oklopol: do you actually do any math 21:04:47 which one? 21:04:56 Vorpal: It functions independentally, does not receive any money *from* the federal government, but it's a government agency nevertheless. 21:05:00 j-invariant: yes 21:05:01 he does all the maths j-invariant 21:05:05 "which one?" 21:05:11 he's a BACHELOR! he even got a plaque, saying he's a bachelor 21:05:12 pikhq, uh... 21:05:14 i think this is how degrees work 21:05:14 I hate trying to help people in IR 21:05:16 IRC 21:05:18 they never listen to me 21:05:36 j-invariant, I know the feeling 21:05:38 Vorpal: The functioning independentally is just a matter of how the bureaucracy works. 21:05:43 do I just come across as some sort of liar that wants to trick people or what 21:05:46 pikhq, hm 21:05:48 j-invariant: i listened to you :< 21:06:24 Vorpal: It's part of the executive branch, and technically the President could just start bossing people around. 21:06:33 pikhq, hah 21:07:41 oklopol: have you ever used tkinter 21:07:47 Also, it predates the US, and was founded by Ben Franklin. 21:07:48 * j-invariant listens to HAPPY SONG 21:07:52 elliott: yes 21:07:52 j-invariant: wat 21:07:58 oklopol: can i like 21:08:11 elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwmU9kQTv4U 21:08:12 oklopol: recursively transform an object structure into a gui widget, different widget type per class 21:08:16 oklopol: and have it sort of automatically update? 21:08:34 i haven't used it enough to tell you more than any tutorial could 21:08:38 j-invariant: i thought you just had a song that you referred to as HAPPY SONG for no reason :D 21:08:43 i've mostly just made basic interfaces with it 21:08:47 :P 21:08:52 like you know text box + button 21:09:03 oklopol: i'm tempted to just do this with sdl :D 21:09:07 or whatever 21:09:09 pygame or sth 21:10:45 what a waste of tiem geez 21:11:15 j-invariant: ? 21:11:26 elliott, what are you doing then? 21:11:31 elliott: this guy wanted to know how to write init as foldr, I tried to help him but he just ignored me 21:11:32 j-invariant, har har 21:11:37 oklopol: like i can't figure out how to do this, do i have to reconstruct every object constantly 21:11:41 (wrt games) 21:11:41 Vorpal: what is har har/ 21:11:47 j-invariant: do you mean me >_> 21:11:53 i don't recall wanting to know that 21:11:55 elliott: ?? no 21:11:57 oh 21:12:11 lol 21:12:11 it's possible he just didn't see your message... 21:12:22 j-invariant, wait nvm. I read "geez" as "games" somehow (and sorted out the grammar without noticing it) 21:12:46 I think I need to sleep 21:12:52 Vorpal: well I /have/ spent about 60% of the last few days playing minecraft 21:13:05 j-invariant, that was why I went "har har" :P 21:14:45 oklopol: i think i need... zippers... in python :D 21:14:51 or just 21:14:52 omg 21:14:53 mutable integers :D 21:14:57 BEST IDEA 21:20:14 oklopol: oh wow it's actually working. 21:21:04 oklopol: dude. 21:21:09 it's 21:21:10 WORKING 21:23:36 mutable integers :D <-- what exactly do you mean? 21:23:38 something like 21:23:41 1 = 5? 21:23:48 Vorpal: x = IntHolder(5) 21:23:51 x.value = 6 21:24:05 oklopol: i think i need... zippers... in python :D ← Well, someone already did monads... 21:24:10 elliott, uh. so it is inc() ? 21:24:11 hmm possibly these objects should know their parents 21:24:16 elliott, or wait 21:24:17 Vorpal: what 21:24:22 elliott, you mean x = 5; x = 6 ? 21:24:23 Vorpal: the point is that it's (int *) 21:24:24 basically 21:24:26 no 21:24:26 elliott, but boxed? 21:24:32 well yes 21:24:38 x = Holder(5); f(x); x ==> Holder(6) 21:24:40 if f is 21:24:43 elliott, so you need boxed mutable variables. Okay 21:24:44 x.value += 1 21:24:54 Phantom__Hoover: http://imgur.com/JybuB 21:25:59 oklopol: current state of cled: http://i.imgur.com/931qc.png 21:26:05 oklopol: those buttons are actually going to be like text boxes 21:26:06 but whatever 21:26:32 oklopol: the idea is basically that everything is a list: e.g. a branch is a list of examples 21:26:37 what's cled? 21:26:42 oklopol: you can go up and down a list, "descend" into a list, and ascend back up 21:26:54 oklopol: so for instance, the list shown there is 1, 2 and 3 21:26:54 elliott, AAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH 21:27:11 oklopol: if you are over, e.g. an integer, then you can type a new one to replace it 21:27:27 oklopol: bags are obviously an auto-sorted unique list (set) of their elements 21:27:31 oklopol: lists are of course lists of their elements 21:27:39 oklopol: and the whole program is an auto-sorted unique list (set) of the functions 21:27:49 and there's one extra key, / 21:27:53 /foo jumps to the function foo 21:28:05 oh, and there's also "insert element to list here" and "delete element" 21:28:13 you create a function by inserting an element in the program, typing the name, and going from there 21:28:15 Phantom__Hoover: what's aaargh 21:28:27 elliott, that creeper 21:28:31 Phantom__Hoover: Ah. 21:28:51 oklopol: the keys to create "more than 3" look something like this: 21:29:00 elliott: what is it! 21:29:04 Phantom__Hoover: http://imgur.com/JybuB <-- that looks like a cross between a creeper, a duck and some blobby creature from generic scifi that can shape shift. 21:29:07 j-invariant: an editor for Clue trees 21:29:11 oh 21:29:17 elliott, end result is not scary but just laughable 21:29:23 it is terrifying. 21:29:27 Vorpal, the moooouuuuuutttthhhh 21:29:42 Phantom__Hoover, yes it just looks silly 21:29:54 Phantom__Hoover, a mouth that shape, how would it close it? 21:30:07 it doesn't 21:30:08 duh 21:30:12 ever seen a creeper with its mouth closed? 21:30:20 elliott, no and I blame notch for that 21:30:22 oklopol: +emore than 3+e+e0e0... and more 21:30:29 oklopol: i swear this is easy to use :D 21:30:41 -!- BMG has joined. 21:30:53 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 21:30:53 -!- BMG has joined. 21:30:58 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 21:31:07 Vorpal: so anyway, water flows upwards now http://i.imgur.com/4mx3X.png 21:31:21 oh 21:31:22 just visual 21:31:23 :( 21:31:33 http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=99048 21:33:56 oklopol: i get the feeling you don't think this editor is brilliant : 21:33:57 :D 21:34:32 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:39:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:46:03 http://imgur.com/JybuB = awesome 21:47:55 someone should totally make mc with those graphics 21:48:30 haha this guy shows how to make a memory cell using boats and doors 21:55:30 oklopol: making this is so hard :D 21:55:36 -!- augur[afk] has changed nick to augur. 21:56:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:56:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:56:46 http://imgur.com/nlL89 hd textures :D 21:57:00 sleeeeeeeep 21:58:04 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:59:17 oklopol: what, why 22:00:09 pikhq: I dare you to retell Lord of the Rings in 10 sentences. 22:00:17 pikhq: (Not ten chapter-long sentences.) 22:02:45 elliott: Frodo Baggins must destroy the Ring of Power, so that ultimate evil cannot use it! He does so. 22:02:50 2. 22:02:52 There. 22:03:26 pikhq: That leaves out almost all details. Try and pack all the important details into 10 sentences. 22:03:30 This is going somewhere. 22:06:11 "First Wikileaks, then their followers. Next will be the follower's followers. Eventually the US will get their real target: Kevin Bacon 22:06:30 :D 22:06:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:06:53 Like my conspiracy to conspire to commit fraud. 22:09:50 -!- azaq23 has joined. 22:11:39 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:12:30 Vorpal: tile would probably work with this actually 22:12:31 but whatever 22:13:28 oklopol: what, why <-- he has an exam tomorrow, remember? 22:13:32 oerjan: so? 22:13:53 Vorpal: so anyway, water flows upwards now http://i.imgur.com/4mx3X.png <--- old, happens all the time with diagonals like that. It can go down if you have a 2x2 basin without the corners for example 22:13:53 * oerjan swats elliott -----### 22:14:09 Vorpal: tile would probably work with this actually <-- this made no sense 22:14:17 pikhq: i have a tk question 22:14:17 I do not know the context 22:14:22 Vorpal: tk themeable widgets 22:14:28 oh right 22:14:30 well okay 22:14:31 night 22:14:36 elliott: I don't know Tk well, but k. 22:14:45 pikhq: what event do I bind to on an entry (single-line text input field) such that it triggers whenever an extra char gets inserted? 22:14:48 doesn't work 22:14:54 it calls even for things like tab, cursor keys, etc. 22:14:56 Hell if I know. 22:15:03 pikhq: :( 22:17:33 pikhq: MAKE IT WORK 22:19:45 -!- Behold has joined. 22:22:08 fizzie, mcmap feature request? 22:22:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:23:00 Could it copy the block data it receives to an SSP-compatible world file? 22:25:52 Phantom__Hoover: fizzie already has that planned. 22:26:06 Maybe I could plan how to blow up Mount Vorpal locally. 22:29:50 pikhq: Do you know of a tcl wiki link listing tk events? 22:32:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:37:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:48:14 hmm, that was a bizarre spambot on Esolang 22:48:23 it's replacing arbitrary links with piped links to its own website 22:49:32 sounds like one that might be effective 22:49:35 ais523: hi! 22:49:57 ais523, looks like it was just programmed to s/[.*/ / 22:50:57 Phantom__Hoover: indeed 22:52:41 it really screwed up the syntax 22:53:06 ais523: have you ever used a semantic editing tool? 22:53:18 ais523, not too badly. 22:53:30 It actually worked perfectly. 22:53:52 Links become links to the spammer's site, but with a single ] at the end. 22:56:16 What happened to voxelperfect, BtW? 22:56:32 Phantom__Hoover: Expired. 22:56:45 The domain? 22:57:40 Yes. 22:57:42 ais523: yes/no? :p 22:59:19 What's a semantic editing tool? 23:08:39 Phantom__Hoover: I'LL GET TO THAT LATER 23:08:59 elliott, my Complaining About People Not Liking The Show entry on TV Tropes' MC article has been bumped to the YMMV tab. 23:09:12 Phantom__Hoover: Haa. 23:09:27 Other things in that tab are "Demonic Spiders". 23:09:34 This isn't even marked as subjective. 23:09:39 I despair. 23:10:54 "Creepers are of the same species as the Slender Man." 23:10:55 Oh dear god 23:11:14 DON'T MENTION THAT 23:12:40 Phantom__Hoover: Meanwhile, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiJh5fpWPAo 23:13:16 :) 23:14:12 Phantom__Hoover: Incidentally, with the kind of rates he gets there, HHI could double its TNT supply in days. 23:14:42 Roll on creeper Wednesdays! 23:19:11 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk. 23:26:31 http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1016&t=71196 23:26:33 SCIENCE! 23:26:40 Pigman science! 23:30:23 elliott, Notch fanboy stupidity of the week: 23:30:48 Someone on TV Tropes said that you'd be mocked relentlessly for appreciating the things Notch does FOR FREE! 23:30:51 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:31:07 Free.... except for the €15 charge for the beta. 23:31:33 Bahaaha. 23:32:49 what, voxelperfect works again 23:32:54 ais523: ^ 23:32:55 oerjan: ^ 23:33:02 -!- fizzie has joined. 23:33:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:45 oklopol: hey it's actually working :D 23:37:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:37:41 elliott: woohoo! 23:39:25 :: foo ~ { -> 3 }; foo ~ 3 23:39:26 IndexError: list index out of range :( 23:39:29 :: foo ~ { -> 3 } foo ~ 3 23:39:29 IndexError: list index out of range :( 23:39:31 hmm 23:39:36 i should complain to oklopol about that :D 23:39:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EylMIwGLRBg 23:39:42 How... 23:39:53 How did he get FPS that high on the Reddit creative server? 23:39:59 WITH SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 23:41:11 Y'know, CS isn't really a science... 23:41:16 Phantom__Hoover: Obviously. 23:41:17 It's more of a whatever mathematics is. 23:41:25 Phantom__Hoover: It *is* a field of mathematics. 23:41:26 Phantom__Hoover: "Computing theory". 23:41:29 Or "Computation theory". etc. 23:41:37 CS is neither a science nor related to computers. 23:41:39 People who claim otherwise are ignorant. 23:42:14 pikhq, any other novels which are awful and loved by the pretentious? 23:42:29 Phantom__Hoover: Lemme find some. 23:43:20 Phantom__Hoover: Alternately, I could cut the work and just say "Look at a literature cirriculum." 23:43:21 Phantom__Hoover: Iain M. Banks 23:43:21 * elliott OHHHHHHHH 23:43:44 elliott, M.? 23:43:47 Not loved by the pretentious. 23:43:52 Phantom__Hoover: T'was joke. 23:44:01 But yeah, I should have said just Iain Banks. 23:44:02 Iain Banksy. 23:44:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize_for_Fiction Here's a list. 23:44:28 SF in general isn't loved by the pretentious, since you need to have a modicum of intelligence to appreciate it. 23:44:33 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:44:36 (note: some omissions required. Namely: Hemingway is a good author.) 23:45:00 (whose writing style is most notable for lacking any bullshit at all.) 23:46:43 "Bullshit" here meaning "all forms of punctuation higher than the full stop." 23:46:48 Er, *". 23:47:22 I want to like Vonnegut but can't because he hates semicolons. It is a wretched state of existence I find myself in. 23:47:28 Actually, it's more that he's completely unpretentious. 23:47:36 The Road is meant to be good. 23:47:41 elliott, I like semicolons! 23:47:46 SO DO I 23:47:54 Of course, this is natural, considering that he's also quite legitimately a badass. :P 23:47:57 Oh, pissmarsed. 23:48:06 "First rule: Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college." 23:48:08 —Vonnegut 23:48:11 The Road is also speculative fiction. 23:48:15 COINCIDENCE 23:48:28 elliott, I learnt it in my first year of senior school"! 23:48:32 s/"// 23:48:41 I don't recall *not* knowing proper use of the semicolon! 23:48:48 Turns out that the guys who wrote the Oxford Latin Course love semicolons. 23:49:23 I used to never use the semicolon, then I did, and used it excessively to the point of insanity in here; then I decided to stop entirely for a few months, which I did, and my writing became a bit less silly; and then I started again, but more moderately. 23:49:31 Of course, "moderately" here means "a few times per sentence". 23:50:22 Remember my Comic Sans essay? 23:50:34 The teacher scolded me for "semicolon splicing". 23:51:01 When I pointed out to her that that was the ENTIRE POINT of the semicolon, she said I still wasn't using it properly. 23:51:10 * Phantom__Hoover wonders if he still has that essay handy. 23:52:00 Yes, I do, but it's in LyX. 23:52:09 Might as well convert it to LaTeX. 23:52:15 Semicolon splicing. 23:52:15 <3 23:52:32 Phantom__Hoover: Next up, write an essay on the proper use of semicolons. 23:52:38 Cite every major style guide. 23:52:49 (they're not likely to disagree on major points.) 23:53:32 pikhq, well, her quibble was more that I had used it between sentences that weren't very logically connected. 23:54:06 Phantom__Hoover: Define "logically connected". 23:54:23 Dunno. 23:54:41 I could put the text of the essay up, if you want, but it's not terribly good. 23:54:52 I've probably seen worse. 23:54:55 I knocked it together in about 2 hours on the day before it was due. 23:55:10 And I was then scolded *again* for formatting it wrongly. 23:55:23 Phantom__Hoover: Wrongly = with LaTeX? :D 23:55:25 (To be fair, I did use sections and a couple of footnotes.) 23:55:36 elliott, naw. 23:55:55 Although lots of people made the oh-so-clever suggestion to typeset it in Comic Sans. 23:56:24 GODDAMN IT APTITUDE I DON'T CARE IF THERE'S AN UNMET DEPENDENCY IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PACKAGE TO THE ONE I WANT TO INSALL 23:56:27 *INSTALL 2011-01-10: 00:06:31 OK, I've exported the essay to LaTeX... 00:10:07 TODO: make the display of branches somehow a table. 00:10:59 So, who wants to see the stupidity I make up when scrambling to finish an essay at 12 o'clock? 00:12:17 Yes. 00:13:24 What's that command-line pastebin? 00:13:32 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL. 00:14:38 Ah, sprunge. 00:16:23 http://sprunge.us/SRKV 00:16:45 Advice welcome, since I suspect I'll have to hand this in for some exam or other. 00:22:42 -!- hagb4rd|afk has joined. 00:27:58 hagb4rd|afk: HOW CAN YOU JOIN WHEN YOU'RE AFK, THIS NO SENSE MAKE 00:29:25 oerjan, he joined with his mind. 00:29:31 ooh 00:30:39 Phantom__Hoover: I refuse to review anything other than the originale ssay. 00:30:43 *original essay. 00:31:00 elliott, that is essentially it. 00:31:09 Phantom__Hoover: \author{Phantom Hoover} 00:31:10 I doubt! 00:31:29 I made no alteration to the text other than to change \author from my real name to... NOT GOING TO BE THAT EASY 00:32:00 :D 00:32:05 oerjan: what were those two name possibilities again 00:32:13 Phantom__Hoover: FWIW, OS X has only had Comic Sans as of very recently, and Unix machines rarely ship with it. 00:32:18 So I don't get this "every computer" stuff. 00:32:27 "other operating systems rapidly followed suit" -- no they did not 00:32:31 elliott: wat 00:32:41 elliott, WROTE IT IN 2 HOURS 00:32:50 oerjan: of the two possible names ph can be 00:32:52 or did fizzie get that 00:32:59 FACTUAL ERRORS ARE FORGIVEABLE UNLESS BLINDINGLY CLEAR 00:33:06 * oerjan doesn't recall 00:34:02 elliott, also, it's an ENGLISH essay. 00:34:08 Facts are irrelevant. 00:36:31 You may lie as much as you wish, as long as your grammar and spelling is impeccable. 00:36:48 Which they are! 00:36:55 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:36:56 Except for the semicolon splices. 00:38:36 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:39:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 00:40:19 -!- hagb4rd|afk has changed nick to hagb4rd. 00:40:43 * Phantom__Hoover → sleep 00:41:26 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:41:28 sry oerjan.. i was afk before i quit 00:41:33 Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995 00:41:34 Vorpal: yes! 00:41:39 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:42:28 but to answer your question: remote control :p 00:43:44 Vorpal: yeah from screenshots this relaly makes everything smoother 00:43:46 *really 00:43:58 ah phantom did it 00:44:04 damn :/ 00:44:05 hagb4rd: what a ridiculous concept! 00:44:16 did whata 00:44:31 concept would go too far 00:44:52 Vorpal: also http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128043 arbitrary shader mod! 00:45:08 Vorpal: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/ if better light is better light, what is this? perfect light? 00:45:09 lets call it 'the creative moment of superposition' 00:45:36 ME GO TOO FAR! 00:45:48 hahahahahahahahahaaa: 00:45:50 [[Do not distribute anything I've made. This includes the client and the server software for the game. This also includes modified versions of anything I've made.]] 00:45:57 you can't redistribute the minecraft server which is available for free download 00:45:58 :D 00:47:56 kind of inviting 00:48:48 maybe me/you leak on trust for the culture of white man 00:52:06 [pretty nice track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egdOBB-Z16c&fmt=18] 00:53:02 hagb4rd: what 00:53:26 minima lelectro music 00:53:43 feel free to ignore it 00:53:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jzsrnTFhyQ I think I prefer this. 00:55:08 Aza's texture pack looks nice... 00:55:08 oh.. u mean my mistranslated thompson quote :> 00:55:15 indeed. 00:55:18 that is what i mean 00:57:34 * elliott tries to flesh out list semantics. 00:58:00 nice1 pikhq :) 00:58:01 A list has a current selection. The arrow keys move this selection up/down or left/right (same thing) the list of focusable children. 00:58:26 The E key can be pressed to cause the current selection to be focused. Before this, the current selection stays as the list's widget. 00:59:06 The current selection's border is blue; other selections' borders are light grey. I might have some extra border colour for "selected and focused", but this is not very relevant, since you could tell by seeing whether there are any highlighted borders inside it. 00:59:42 The D key defocuses the current selection, and returns to the list, with it still selected. 00:59:45 Focusing a number makes it become blue-bordered, say, and then typing overwrites that number. 00:59:57 So e123d, when a number is selected, would turn it into 123. 01:00:49 The + or = key (not sure which) adds a new element after the current one in a list and selects it (but does not focus it, I don't *think*.) 01:01:02 I should probably have an "insert before" key so that you can insert at the top of a list. 01:01:13 If I do, then probably = should be insert after, and + should be insert before, since + is shifted = for me. 01:01:34 So in an argument list, +e123d adds 123 as an argument after the current one. 01:02:04 (Perhaps I should make sure that all examples have the same number of arguments? That could be a pain (although maybe not), but it would be nice if it could do that somehow and... automatically add blank arguments to the others? Not sure.) 01:02:11 Actually, it would be +ie123d. 01:02:28 Since + would take the type in an argument list; either integer (i) or list (l). 01:03:06 So +le+ie123d+ie456d+ie789d adds the list [123 456 789] after the current argument. 01:03:12 Or perhaps e should be implicit after +. 01:03:23 In that case, it would be: (oh, and I'm using + to mean = here, i.e. insert after) 01:03:35 +l+i123d+i456d+i789d 01:03:41 That's certainly nicer, but perhaps more confusing. I'll have to see. 01:03:54 Backspace or something deletes the current selection. 01:04:11 In a set, obviously, everything gets sorted, so no matter where you add an element, it'll move to the right place after you enter the name. 01:04:23 On that note: in a bag, there's an extra type other than i and l, f for function. 01:04:43 But is used in place of d when writing a string. (Perhaps should be a synonym for d everywhere.) 01:05:00 So +fesucc or +fsucc (if e is implicit) adds succ to the current bag. 01:05:03 I like it. 01:05:23 Other things I should probably have: keys to jump to the branch list and bag of the current function, no matter where you are in it. 01:05:35 Also, a command called / which has you type in a function name, press enter, and it jumps there. 01:06:02 I think this could actually work! 01:06:14 Also, s or Cmd+s or whatever saves. Obviously. 01:06:27 Saving will have to exit the current item if it's an integer or string to make sure it gets updated properly... 01:06:41 I should probably also store history here, but I'm not sure how. Maybe just copy the whole thing on every change and store it in memory, the ghetto way. :p 01:11:12 Also also, the focus starts on the program object, which is just a set of functions (well, really a dictionary, but you don't see that). 01:11:36 There, + just takes a name and creates a function. Perhaps it should actually do an implicit "ee", i.e. enter into the function, and enter into the name. 01:11:44 Obviously it would remove it if you try and name a function an existing name or whatever. 01:11:47 Or don't give it a name. 01:13:20 http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11997 The Minecraft Society of Blowing People's Chests Up. 01:13:25 I wholeHEARTEDLY approve. 01:15:09 http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ez76j/living_underground_playing_minecraft_in_moleman/ 01:15:15 I really want to do this as a two-person SMP thing. 01:15:19 Maybe I'll convince PH. 01:48:59 ...so basically, I keep a list index (or object references for sets? Or for everything? I have no direct object duplicates... eh, TODO: figure this out.) in each list object. 01:49:08 And make sure it all gets highlighted and have bindings to move around that list. 01:49:14 Then I just have a binding to focus the current index/whatever. 01:49:28 Each widget itself has a key to focus its parent, which accomplishes "going up" one, i.e. exiting (d). 01:49:32 (And ). 01:49:36 (And perhaps .) 01:49:38 *.) 01:49:43 Yeah, this could work. 01:50:09 Obviously integers just have to snarf the keys 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and - when they're focused and do the obvious (*10)+. 01:50:16 Although - might require some trickery. 01:50:26 Maybe I should keep it as a string until the whole integer's written. 01:50:29 Or maybe not. Whatever. 01:53:10 hello 01:54:13 -!- TLUL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:54:45 -!- TLUL has joined. 01:57:14 [["We" don't make us Ninjas or Rockstars - we still have the notion of "Monks". You might think this is stupid - on a cultural level you're basically comparing living the boheme with celebacy - guess what speaks to 01:57:14 people?]] 01:57:16 this is the silliest article ever 01:58:56 "Ah Perl, a ... weapon ... from an ... age." —reddit 02:02:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1sXuHnf_lo Deldo, teledildonics for Emacs. WJW. 02:03:58 Oh god he's having sex with Steve Yegge via Emacs. What is this. 02:06:01 bahahaha networked teledildonics 02:07:53 He's proposing teledildonical eugenics to wipe out vi. 02:11:12 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:11:15 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:23:18 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk. 02:31:17 would a language that does a random walk among all its instructions (and otherwise TC) be considered TC because it will *eventually* perform whatever it is that you actually intended 02:36:12 well that sounds like it would be an infinitely long computation, wouldn't it? and defining what it means for infinite computation models to be TC is very subtle 02:37:05 the thing is that you need some kind of output translation algorithm to look through the actual random walk to say what the final result is 02:38:12 and the question is then, is it your random walk or the output translation that is doing most of the _real_ computation? 02:39:11 this is a problem for such things as rule 110 cellular automaton and that minimal turing machine which ais523 proved 02:42:33 both of which require an infinite setup which calculates forever 02:42:45 variable: ^ 02:44:06 rule 110 cellular automation ? 02:44:09 * variable googles 02:44:51 also to be nitpicking, theoretically TC should always be about computing a result somehow, whether it is also performing "actions" is fairly irrelevant 02:46:23 for the other one see http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html 02:46:24 oerjan, so my question should have been "since it will eventually compute whatever it is you intended" 02:46:36 ps - nitpicky is good for me - it helps me learn 02:46:50 variable: well you see you have to have some way to decide on _one_ result to get out of it 02:47:29 (warning, everything wolfram is embedded in an ocean of hype) 02:49:48 it might compute as many other things it wants, but at the end you have to have a way to choose, and if that way is itself too computationally complex it is too easy to cheat 02:50:24 oerjan, so what your saying is that the chooser itself becomes what becomes TC so the random walk doesn't matter 02:50:47 that can happen yes. although sometimes there is a combination. 02:52:33 for the rule 110 automaton you need infinite setup and extraction of result but each of those is essentially still a finite state automaton (i think) 02:53:21 so in some sense they're still "simple" 02:54:54 for the 2,3-turing machine case the setup is even more complicated, and there was a debate about whether it was simple enough 02:55:55 (i recall ais523 telling that the output extraction was still a very simple check) 02:56:11 ah 03:51:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:52:04 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:03:50 o 04:04:58 i think ive started to understand how continuation based backtracking works 04:04:58 :T 04:09:00 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL. 04:10:27 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:11:37 -!- azaq231 has joined. 04:11:39 -!- azaq231 has quit (Client Quit). 04:11:50 -!- azaq231 has joined. 04:12:04 -!- azaq231 has quit (Changing host). 04:12:04 -!- azaq231 has joined. 04:13:05 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:15:38 here's my essay about comic sans: "Comic Sans is not monospaced, nuff said." 04:16:17 "Comic Sans is not monospaced", Nuff said. 04:16:56 * pikhq finds it funny how bad people are at driving in snow. 04:17:18 "Oh my god there's half an inch of snow! I CAN'T DRIVE!" 04:17:25 (for you non-Americans, that's 1 or 2 cm) 04:18:50 1.27 04:19:33 oerjan: Ballpark figures get ballpark conversions from me. 04:20:05 1.270000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 04:20:19 The 0s are irrelevant digits! 04:20:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:20:33 YOUR digits are irrelephant! 04:20:34 augur: congratulations 04:20:38 An inch is *defined as* precisely 25.4e-3 m! 04:20:48 i know. 04:20:53 oklopol: :D 04:20:54 <3 04:20:56 that was sort of his point 04:21:25 Bah. 04:21:45 Anyways. 04:21:55 I actually saw people *parked on the side of the road*. 04:22:21 what's the significance of that, said the foreigner? 04:22:40 do americans only use fancy big parking lotw 04:22:41 *lots 04:22:51 oklopol: Their thoughts were "Oh fuck it's too bad I'm going to wait this out". 04:23:02 oh like just a random road 04:23:09 oklopol: Meanwhile I'm driving by at ~45 mph (~70 kph). 04:23:19 i suppose that's sort of the definition of road 04:23:49 we rarely have half an inch of snow on the roads because people drive about as much as in the summer 04:24:11 well. probably much less, but you don't need that many cars to remove the snow. 04:24:32 It happens when it's snowing pretty well, and it's evening. 04:24:42 i suppose it might 04:24:46 i don't actually own a car 04:26:13 should prolly go to uni and try to study a bit 04:29:14 oerjan: i think i now understand the green's stuff completely, the lemmas are just because you first prove that there is a kind of inverse element for each *pair* of identity elements in the same D class, for D = L \circle R (an eq relation), that is, for each x, eRx, fLx where e and f are idempotents, there is a unique fRyLe such that xy=e, yx=f 04:29:48 which is actually pretty easy, but you have to guess what y is, by building it from the elements used in the implementations of L and R relations 04:30:04 with the same meaning of implementation as i used yesterday 04:30:43 so xRy ~ xs = y, ys' = x would mean s and s' implement the relation, not sure that's a good term but anyhows 04:31:25 and the really complex looking lemma i listed yesterday is actually very simple when you think of it in terms of these diagrams representing D classes 04:32:31 D = R \circle L so have R classes as rows and L classes as columns, then what the lemma says, or on of the things, is that if left multiplication takes an element in an R class a to another R class b, then actually the whole class a is bijected onto b 04:33:18 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 04:33:49 and L classes are preserved when multiplying a's elements from the left (by that element we chose), since well obviously because there's another element whose multiplication from the left inverts the operation 04:33:50 well 04:34:10 it's not really very clear this way either, but trust me, it's clear when you draw a diagram and move your fingers along it! 04:35:41 anyhow so in short, H classes within one R class a are bijected onto H classes of the other R class b, if you multiply from the left by an element implementing the L relation between two elements x \in a, y \in b 04:36:31 i think i'll run away screaming now 04:37:00 :D 04:37:22 the stuff in the inverse semigroups chapter is waaaaaaaay more complicated 04:38:13 i'd love to rant about it but 04:38:19 i should probably read it once more 04:38:26 and to do that, i should probably leave 04:38:43 anyway in short: 04:38:59 inverse element of x is y such that xyx = x, yxy = y 04:39:08 inverse semigroup = all have unique inverses 04:39:30 in short my brain is not capable of this stuff today 04:39:47 the trace of a congruence is the restriction of it on the semilattice of idempotents (nontrivial that it's a semilattice, essentially needs the same proof we spend hours on back when) 04:39:51 :D 04:39:59 well i don't really care! 04:40:03 so umm 04:40:04 where was i 04:40:10 yeeeeeah 04:40:13 as long as you don't mind speaking to yourself 04:40:17 now for each congruence on an inverse semigroup 04:40:26 well you might not be listening, but others might! 04:40:32 :DDDDDDDDDD 04:40:34 anyway so 04:40:41 SUUUUURE 04:41:33 http://www.ninjapirate.com/newcomputer.html 04:41:36 let p be a congruence, we can define p_{min} = complicated shit; then we can prove, using a page of dense impossibl- to-understand algebration, that p_{min} is the smallest congruence with the same trace 04:41:39 same for p_{max} 04:41:57 and that's the greatest sexiness eva 04:42:45 such a uniqueness of minimul suchness is not the case for all regular semigroups 04:42:58 and in the case of groups, that is an empty definition 04:43:04 as is usually the case in semigroup theory 04:43:11 which is essentially the theory of idempotents afaiu 04:43:36 okay rant over, you don't have to feel bad about me wasting my time anymore 04:43:53 YAY 04:53:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:56:38 i'll continue after the exam, try to get your brain up and running with puzzles and shit while i'm gone k?! 04:58:10 NEVER 04:58:22 :((( 04:58:31 ok MAYBE 04:58:50 :P 04:59:26 i should actually try to clean up this place, i moved about a week ago, and i still haven't moved a single object 04:59:32 well, maybe like 5 objects 04:59:33 anyhow -> 04:59:36 i mean 04:59:40 should do that today 04:59:48 good luck on the exam 04:59:52 so it's possible i won't be here all day 04:59:54 thanks 05:00:02 apparently it's super hard 05:00:05 i mean 05:00:08 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 05:00:25 according to the guy who deduced how clue works from ski 05:01:25 but i'm sure i'll manage with 5 hours of sleep 05:02:12 -> 05:07:53 My new favorite game is Super PSTW 05:08:10 we'll have to update shutup then 05:08:16 * oerjan ducks 05:08:17 * Sgeo was joking 05:08:31 * oerjan has no idea what Super PSTW is anyhow 05:08:38 http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/495903 05:11:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:14:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 05:18:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:59:35 Oh no 05:59:40 Mercury 06:00:16 The Evil Planet 06:00:28 or wait, uh uh 06:01:00 _definitely_ time to update shutup 06:01:50 oerjan, it will need to be provided with an AI capable of determining when I'm expressing an interest in something new. 06:02:15 sounds plausible 06:05:12 Well, this sounds like a lot of redundant typing that Haskell eliminates via the IO monad 06:05:20 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:05:47 [Mercury IO predicates manually take in and give back the state of the world] 06:06:22 " 06:06:22 Naming all these intermediate states quickly becomes tedious, so Mercury 06:06:22 provides us with syntactic sugar in the form of state variables" 06:06:23 Oh good 06:10:29 I'll look at it in more detail tomorrow 06:10:37 Just got confused by a line that looks backwards 06:14:02 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:27:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:32:08 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|rlybusy. 06:33:14 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 06:51:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:01:29 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:01:40 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:05:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:07:25 Quick! Everyone count to zero! 07:07:32 -!- zzo38 has changed nick to Quick_Everyone_c. 07:07:34 -!- Quick_Everyone_c has quit (Client Quit). 07:08:11 at last a request we can fill 07:12:30 i didn't do it though. this isn't #irp 07:12:46 yes you did. 07:13:14 you lie. 07:13:32 watch me count to zero again: 07:14:28 > [1 .. 0] 07:14:28 [] 07:14:32 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:14:51 he didn't say to start counting at 1 07:14:59 most computer scientists start at zero 07:15:03 that's the default duh 07:15:05 and that requires counting at least zero 07:15:37 ...you show me an average computer scientist who starts at zero when counting actual items 07:16:14 he didn't ask anyone to count actual items 07:16:32 stop making up arbitrary situations where you're right and i'm not :P 07:16:42 *MWAHAHAHA* 07:19:07 oerjan, me, out of habit, on occasion 07:19:25 *counting chairs to remember where I sit* 0, 1, 2, 07:19:27 Sgeo: I SAID AVERAGE 07:19:41 supergeeks don't count 07:21:01 i have an annoying bug or something that is pissing me off. my microSD card unmounts always and only when i copy files to it 07:21:06 * oerjan reads up on the no true computer scientist fallacy 07:21:13 ^ lie 07:21:14 creating files on it is fine, copying files from it is fine. 07:21:38 i want to punt it but then i'd lose it...it's too small 07:22:03 * oerjan suggests cat > 07:22:19 * quintopia tries 07:24:57 still fails and unmounts but takes longer in doing it 07:25:04 huh 07:25:24 what about touch followed by cat >> ? 07:25:34 (FOR SCIENCE!) 07:26:20 failed fast again 07:26:35 does the size of the file copied matter? 07:26:36 (the touch worked though) 07:26:48 well, i tried a pretty small one and it failed 07:26:54 let me try an uber small one 07:27:47 alright, a 4byte file copies fine 07:28:54 How about a slow-speed write with something like perl -e 'open IN, "<:raw", "/input/file"; open OUT, ">:raw", "/output/file"; while (read IN, $data, 512) { print OUT $data; sleep 1; }' -- that's half a kilobyte per second. 07:29:55 apparently half a kilobyte is too big 07:30:08 is that the block size? 07:30:12 i just tried to echo 10 lines of t's into a file and it failed 07:30:34 what happens if you echo >> 10 times? 07:32:23 it appears to fail as soon as the file reaches a certain (extremely small size) 07:32:29 lemme try again slower 07:33:21 i'm just wondering if it's absolute file size or just amount written in one go 07:34:10 apparently if i wait long enough between appending 80 or so bytes at a time i can make big files 07:34:19 heh 07:34:38 * quintopia tries the perl script with a 80 byte rate 07:34:40 oh so it's not enought to close in between, you have to wait? 07:34:51 yep 07:35:03 echoing really quick in a row still breaks it 07:35:20 You could try echo + sync + echo + sync; though that sort of thing is probably going to wear out the card quicker. 07:35:31 They have to always erase a full block when writing, after all. 07:36:08 odds are it's an issue with the card reader 07:36:23 i know the card is fine 07:40:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:40:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:41:34 * quintopia is now writing a file at 40 bytes/sec >_> 07:42:57 now if this slow speed means it syncs so that it does that erase a full block everything thing... 07:43:20 *everytime 07:43:24 yeahhhhhhhhhhh... 07:43:36 just for science anyway 07:45:43 What're you doing? 07:46:29 running fizzie's perl script 07:47:55 Phantom_Hoover: MINDLINK. I had committed-and-pushed a (very preliminary probably broken) //save command (which saves the so-far received block data, sans signs, furnaces and chests, into a hopefully Minecraft-compatible world-dir) about an hour before you had that feature request. 07:47:57 * oerjan discovers r/inglip 07:48:40 fizzie, HOW DARE YOU STEAL MY THOUGHTS BEFORE I EVEN THINK THEM 07:48:52 If it's any consolation, it probably doesn't work. 07:49:46 * oerjan wonders if he is witnessing the birth of a meme 07:50:15 I've only tried the resulting world with pynemap, and, well, http://zem.fi/~fis/pynemap.png -- there's a bit of it that's missing. 07:50:40 Also the lighting values are likely to be very worng. 07:51:06 And the heightmap I know is mirrored over the x=z line. 07:51:34 (The heightmap is used as a speedup for computing the final light values from block-light and skylight, or some-such.) 07:51:58 oerjan, inglip? 07:52:55 the perlscript expt failed 07:53:07 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/eybba/dark_captcha_magic/ 07:53:16 fizzie, it's good enough for my plot to blow up Mt. Vorpal locally. 07:53:31 -!- azaq231 has left (?). 07:53:51 and of course http://www.reddit.com/r/Inglip/ 07:53:52 Phantom_Hoover: You shouldn't say stuff like that before actually verifying whether it works in the actual game at all. 07:54:16 oerjan, ah, it's Zalgo 2.0. 07:54:22 fizzie, I WILL 07:54:27 Phantom_Hoover: possibly 07:54:39 hm i guess that means it may have troubles competing 07:55:22 Zalgo does have something of a monopoly on the field of memetic Lovecraftian horrors. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:01 this Inglip seems a teeny bit reluctant though 08:02:24 *this Inglip daemon 08:02:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:03:57 fizzie, I'll try out the saved world now... 08:05:30 Phantom_Hoover: It is possible you may fall into your death. 08:06:08 I'd have tried it myself, but I always get queasy when there are glitches in 3D-y games. 08:06:27 fizzie, I can confirm that it does indeed work. 08:06:40 Oh no! Wait, what? Where's the "not" in that sentence? 08:06:41 I spawned on Mt. Vorpal, and I saw the skyway in the distance. 08:07:13 Then what happened? 08:08:02 The experience must've been so horrible, it robbed him of the power of speech. How tragic! 08:08:12 Heh, it even captured the front half of nailor's cabin. 08:08:17 It looks a bit forlorn. 08:08:42 How's the lighting? 08:10:15 Fine. 08:10:21 Weird. 08:10:29 Although I only explored the overground bits. 08:11:04 At this point I just want to load hMod locally and give myself a load of TNT. 08:11:35 You can server-command-'give' yourself 64 blocks of TNT even without any hMods. 08:12:01 The //save-enabled mcmap build will use 2.5 times as much memory as the normal version, which is a bit of a shame. I should possibly do the whole "persist far-away chunks to file" thing the usual client does; then there wouldn't be a separate //save, it'd be intemagrated. 08:13:02 use mmap:ed memory for everything? :> 08:13:37 fizzie, yes, but I want to turn health off. 08:14:25 olsner: Just plain old data-structure dumps won't be combattible with the official client on-disk formats, unfortunately. 08:14:58 well, yeah... unless your memory format is compatible 08:17:06 The NBT thing it uses is a bit uncomfortable to work with. 08:17:10 Oh, and it needs to be gzipped. 08:21:22 oh, screw that then :) but you can always build converters from your format to official-client format 08:41:46 -!- wth has joined. 08:46:20 -!- wth has left (?). 08:57:48 Huh. Dynamite disappears after a short time, and doesn't do anything when punched. 08:59:46 Only happens in some chunks. 09:12:31 -!- wth has joined. 09:13:13 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:13:35 -!- wth has joined. 09:14:30 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:18:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 09:22:44 fizzie, your house is next. 09:23:35 I just hope you don't get confused, accidentally connect to the real server, and then explode the *beep* out of it. 09:28:26 fizzie, I don't have 5 stacks of dynamite on the real server. 09:28:59 Also, the amount of TNT I used on your house seems to have broken the world... 09:31:22 So this is how the world ends. 09:37:29 Not with a bang but with a NullPointerException. 09:49:27 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 09:50:10 -!- quintopi1 has quit (Client Quit). 10:20:41 Heh, look at this: http://goo.gl/4yVWN 10:21:14 * TLUL|rlybusy has ruined breakfast for some of you 10:24:50 I have HAD breakfast, fool! 10:25:50 it's 5:30, fool 10:26:07 europenub 10:30:01 12:30, more like. 10:40:30 10:38! 10:43:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:43:59 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:44:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 10:44:01 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:50:05 fizzie, oh it saves now? excellent. 10:50:48 It seems to sorta-work for some purposes, but it's all reasonably experimental still. 10:51:26 fizzie, how does one enable this saving? 10:52:38 There's just a command to dump the currently-in-memory world into a directory. "//save" (which uses "world" in current dir), or "//save dir" if you want to specify where it goes. 10:53:06 fizzie, also how comes that part of the --help output is localised to Swedish? 10:53:17 That's from glib. 10:53:19 ah 10:54:26 fizzie, hm is it able to dump a larger area than that which the server lets you see at a single point in time? 10:55:21 It dumps whatever you have seen during the "session". 10:55:30 ah nice 10:56:45 I'll probably make it also load an existing dump and in general auto-persist the world on disk at some point, in order to reduce memory use for long-running game sessions where you wander around far and wide. 10:57:07 (Plus that way you'll have the map from the previous session as "background"; should probably shade it or something to indicate it may be out-of-date, though.) 10:57:33 fizzie, might be a good idea to be able to turn off this tracking in case you don't want that memory overhead. Like when I play on my local test server. 10:58:18 There is currently no way for it to forget any chunks, but there probably should. 10:58:51 fizzie, any way to tell when it finished saving? 10:58:58 oh wait, there it comes 10:59:05 (that took some time) 10:59:12 Yes, it's suspiciously slow. 10:59:14 Vorpal, http://imgur.com/3Wjwh 10:59:44 Phantom_Hoover, well it is your local copy. As long as it doesn't happen on the actual server. *shrug* 11:00:14 * oerjan has a feeling Vorpal wasn't supposed to have noticed that :D 11:00:24 Phantom_Hoover, I did read scrollback :P 11:00:30 I have since corrupted the copy, though. 11:00:30 err 11:00:31 oerjan, ^ 11:00:46 Phantom_Hoover, hm? 11:01:14 Vorpal, I used an insane amount of TNT on fizzie's place and it corrupted the world data after crashing the server. 11:01:27 Phantom_Hoover, ouch. 11:01:39 Phantom_Hoover, did you find fizzie's hidden chest by any chance? 11:01:59 Phantom_Hoover, another question: do signs and such things work? Chests? 11:02:07 or do you get empty signs and chests? 11:02:11 Vorpal, no, although I did find two of yours. 11:02:18 They're empty, though. 11:02:35 (Although I still looked inside them on the actual server.) 11:03:26 Phantom_Hoover, I don't care what you do with your local copy as long as you don't steal anything on the actual server and don't mess it up there either. 11:04:15 Phantom_Hoover, notice I have never messed up your place so far, so I assume you won't mess up mine. :) 11:04:41 I'll be picking apart fizzie's house soon, though/ 11:04:53 Phantom_Hoover, not on the actual server I presume? 11:05:00 Chests will be empty, and signs will be gone completely. 11:05:10 Also furnaces should disappear. 11:05:18 (For some values of "should".) 11:05:25 Possibly just their contents. 11:05:28 maybe we need an extension like realms or similar. I hope we don't 11:05:34 fizzie, they still exist. 11:05:40 Okay, then it's just their contents. 11:05:55 fizzie, what about crops? 11:06:01 Those should be there. 11:06:14 fizzie, but isn't the growth stored as aux data? 11:06:18 do you track that? 11:06:24 Yes, nowadays. 11:06:27 hm 11:06:44 You can compile-time disable that, though it will also disable //save. 11:06:51 mhm 11:09:25 What will not be stored in the //save dump are Entities (mobs, items, paintings, vehicles, primed TNT and currently falling sand) and TileEntities (furnace and chest contents, signs, mob spawner details). 11:09:43 fizzie, wait, paintings are entities!? 11:09:51 that explains why they don't work on SMP 11:12:27 fizzie, FWIW, test 2 of //save was far less positive. 11:12:35 Phantom_Hoover, what happened? 11:12:42 It's a jumbled mess of saved chunks and generated ones. 11:13:00 fizzie, btw: any progress on the surface-and-heightmap corruption bug? 11:13:11 Phantom_Hoover, huh, did you save before everything loaded? 11:13:27 Dunno. I'll retry... 11:13:33 Vorpal: Not really. I stared at it, but didn't figure it out. 11:13:46 Yes, it's probably best to wait that the situation is "stable". 11:14:21 The hashmap walk will probably fail in the middle of the save (silently, to boot) if it's modified (read: chunk-update for a so far unseen chunk) during the save. 11:15:45 Except that saving and updates are done by the same thread, so that shouldn't happen. 11:15:45 fizzie, that must happen a lot since the save takes like 20-30 seconds? 11:15:47 OK, I have a nice square area. 11:16:28 Saved it, will start blowing stuff up. 11:16:55 have fun in your local copy 11:17:50 Phantom_Hoover, remember that you only need 5000 TNT going off at once to blow up one obsidian! 11:18:48 Phantom_Hoover, to make sure they go off at once I suggest redstone wiring. Be sure to time them right when it comes to inverters (so every TNT have the same number of inverters on the path to it) 11:19:19 however I'm not sure what this will do to the server 11:19:31 fizzie, is door position saved btw? 11:19:36 Erm. Some chunks have spawn-like protection on them. 11:19:54 Phantom_Hoover, well, where is your local spawn then? 11:20:10 Phantom_Hoover, presumably the area around that spawn is protected 11:20:20 That doesn't really explain it; some other chunks are unprotected. 11:20:27 Er, *protected. 11:20:31 Phantom_Hoover, huh 11:20:43 Phantom_Hoover, do you have admin rights on your local hmod server? 11:20:59 No, but again, that doesn't explain *why* they have the protection. 11:21:14 And I got another world-destroying NullPointerException. 11:21:18 Phantom_Hoover, any weird plugins? 11:21:32 Phantom_Hoover, I assume you made a copy before starting the local server? 11:21:36 if not do that for the next time 11:21:39 Phantom_Hoover: The world spawn position may be set to something rather weird. 11:21:58 fizzie, such as? 11:22:22 Well, it's supposed to be set to wherever you appeared first when connecting. 11:23:01 (I just took the first PLAYER_MOVE packet sent by the server.) 11:23:54 fizzie, hm 11:23:55 I should probably take the last seen SPAWN_POSITION packet. (Currently I don't look at those at all.) 11:24:19 Though then it'd be the regular spawn, which might easily be outside the //save'd region. 11:24:27 Well, I think I found fizzie's secret chest. 11:24:28 Possibly I could just use player position at //save time. 11:24:42 Phantom_Hoover: In the house or in the bunker? 11:24:50 fizzie, in the house. 11:24:57 Then it's empty on the real server too. 11:25:05 Well, I detonated a TNT charge in it and I found a chest. 11:25:08 based on checking with the interactive map viewer minutor (rather good, and very quick and responsive) the dump I made worked fine 11:25:15 TIME TO SEE HOW THE BUNKER HOLDS UP 11:26:07 Phantom_Hoover, the TNT room will hold up just fine. And in case of nuclear war I have always planned to block the door up with obsidian. (since steel door won't last for long against TNT) 11:26:44 fizzie, does the server send the random seed to the client or? 11:26:52 Well, I just got into the bunker without even bothering with the doors. 11:27:02 The storeroom is ridiculously easy to break into. 11:27:21 Phantom_Hoover, fizzie's bunker you mean? 11:27:22 yeah 11:27:43 Yes, it's like single block of stone and one layer of dirt. 11:27:47 And yes, the random seed is sent. 11:28:10 btw it seems you can get bedrock holes again in recent versions 11:28:27 you know those underground lakes? And lava lakes at non-standard altitudes? 11:28:43 Yes, I've heard you can get a lake over bedrock. 11:28:47 they can result in holes in the bedrock when they end up at a suitable altitude for that 11:29:07 Re the random seed, you'll of course get post-halloween map-generation even on blocks that would be pre-halloween on our server, if they don't end up in the //save-dump. 11:30:16 I didn't have mcmap when I started with the bunker, which sort-of explains why it's so near the surface. Didn't bother thinking about where I were inside the mountain. 11:30:35 That's also the reason the storage room is L-shaped; I was making it a long I-shaped one, but I hit the mountain wall. 11:30:58 heh 11:32:55 fizzie, an idea for mcmap which would be cool but is not really high priority: ability to load an image and overlay it on terrain with, say, 25% alpha or such. Perfect when you are doing mega-engineering. Currently I did this with cartographer + gimp but cartographer takes ages. 11:33:40 it is also useful to check that you did indeed get it right between the point of planning it and it being finished. So you can check the dimensions halfway 11:34:41 (still the map corruption bug is more important than that idea) 11:34:46 (way more important) 11:36:45 Mhm, well, sure; that could be done. 11:37:06 fizzie, found it. 11:37:14 In the cactus farm? 11:37:24 Phantom_Hoover: Well done. Though blabbing on-channel is a bit impolite! 11:37:40 Now someone will steal all my treasureres. 11:37:45 THAT WAS A LIE I FOUND NOTHING 11:37:46 fizzie, let me tell you that it would be a sanity saver when working on a 200x200 sized structure. :P And so would fixing the corruption bug when working on the upper parts of said structure 11:38:22 fizzie, really it was quite easy to find it already with mcmap 11:38:51 fizzie, I had a hunch it was around there since some time when I had mcmap in mode 2 when visiting you and noticed a 1x2 black thing in the wall 11:45:16 Death to the subtree! 11:46:52 Well, for the hell of it, I'm going to send down a 5x5 raft of TNT. 11:47:04 This will probably break the server. 11:47:04 Phantom_Hoover, raft? 11:48:35 Well, that's that. 11:53:27 -!- TLUL|rlybusy has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 11:54:56 hm is the area around spawn never unloaded on servers? 11:55:17 if so that is the perfect place to place some redstone stuff that should run all the time 11:57:15 "NOTE: This event is not suitable for undergraduate students". I wonder what sort of DIRTY PORNOGRAPHY they're going to show in this three-hour MathWorks-given "Programming Techniques to Speed up MATLAB/Parallel Computing with MATLAB/Symbolic Computing with MATLAB" seminar. 11:57:18 What like? 11:58:47 fizzie, you have a rather strange mind. Personally it seems perfectly innocent to me. Just meaning "this is too technical for that group" or such 11:59:37 There's no chance whatsover that a three-hour PR session is going to be "too technical" for undergraduates; there must be another reason. 11:59:56 fizzie, PR? 12:00:27 They're not going to come here just out of a desire to be helpful. 12:00:38 fizzie, are you going to go there? 12:01:04 I don't know. It's three hours I'd never get back; and ineiros attended the previous one and I think it was a bit "meh", IIRC. 12:01:18 ah 12:01:40 On the other hand, there's a half-hour "Break", which might include free cookies. 12:02:49 On the third hand, I didn't know people were actually doing symbolic stuff with MATLAB; that smells a bit desperate to me. 12:03:52 Apparently they've (MathWorks, that is) bought a symbolic algebra company and "integrated" their product as a MATLAB Toolbox now. (Well, now == 2008 in this case.) 12:03:58 (Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MuPAD) 12:07:39 heh 12:07:53 fizzie: They had some useful advice. 12:08:18 ineiros, hi there 12:08:30 fizzie: Though you could get 85% of the information in 15 minutes by reading the slides they provided. 12:08:54 Gawds, I hate the parcel-tracking of the Finnish post office; it has a textfield which auto-empties itself whenever it gains focus. So if you have, say, a parcel ID code in another browser tab in a non-pasteable form, you have to either remember the whole 17-digit number, or transcribe it elsewhere first for pasting. (Because if you write down only part of it, it'll get erased when you switch back to the tab.) 12:12:36 At least it's just the front-page quick-link textfield that does it; the actual tracking-page field doesn't. 12:17:53 fizzie, in a non-pastable form? 12:18:59 fizzie, like an image? 12:19:01 if so wtf 12:19:29 Yes. For some unfathomable reason, the "delivered via the web-e-post-system" hey-we-have-your-parcel notes are scan-like images of the ones they deliver on paper. 12:20:16 I guess they're not really scans, since evince does manage to extract text from the "open as PDF" version. 12:20:37 But the thing shown in the web-system is a bona-fide image. 12:21:27 I guess they are "imagey" because they want the bar code to appear properly, and there are form fields for signatures and whatever on it. 12:21:49 Also, the PDF variants have the dubious distinction of being unprintable from Evince. 12:25:47 heh 12:26:07 fizzie, evince respects copy protection? 12:26:09 I'm surprised 12:26:23 No, it just prints them... well, I'll take a photo. 12:26:31 fizzie, garbled? 12:26:44 fizzie, does it work in other pdf viewers, such as okular? 12:26:56 It works with acroread. 12:26:59 Haven't tried others. 12:27:13 I had problems printing pdf on some computers but not on other ones 12:27:21 It also shows up just fine on-screen in Evince, it's just the printout that turns out like http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/20110110_001.jpg (the red blocks are my own redactions). 12:27:39 mostly from my desktop running arch, and it seems to have been related to a cups upgrade. 12:27:45 (it seems to work again now) 12:28:15 fizzie, ah different type of garbling 12:28:17 The barcode in the Evince print is correct, so theoretically speaking it might be that I could use that printout to claim the parcel; I've never bothered to try, though. 12:28:30 fizzie, also I see some was *red*acted ;P 12:28:56 That was just my name and address, and I'm not exactly sure why I bothered, since it's not especially difficult to find out. 12:29:00 ah 12:29:21 Well, also the sender company's name. 12:31:06 fizzie, hm. Must have been some dirty MathWorks thing then ;P 12:32:04 You caught me: it was a package full of toolboxes. (Well no, not really.) 12:41:41 -!- cheater- has joined. 12:42:52 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:03:39 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:04:53 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:09:21 Phantom_Hoover, speaking of movecraft and chests: worldedit managed to move a chest with the //move command just fine. So probably isn't too hard 13:19:28 I have a feeling that in these server-side inventory times, chest contents are only sent on-demand, so //save can't dump chest contents unless the player actually looks inside. 13:20:44 probably 13:23:12 fizzie, btw if it helps: the map corruption bug doesn't happen only when placing blocks up high through the client. If you use worldedit to set a block at similar altitudes it also happens. So presumably related to chunk update rather than sending "place block here" kind of message 13:24:46 I've been dumping the chunk-update/set-block/multi-set-block messages, but haven't figured it out yet. I think next thing I'll try (later, though) is to dump only those packets that actually cause map-visible changes. The server keeps sending all kinds of inconsequential block-set packets quite often. 13:24:58 Like setting empty blocks to air, or grass to grass, or leaves to leaves. 13:26:10 Was it so that the topo-map also got corrupted? 13:26:34 fizzie, yes 13:27:05 fizzie, haven't seen mode 2 or 3 get corrupted though 13:27:35 fizzie, so maybe it is not a bug in how you handle the messages but in how you update the surface map? 13:27:43 Yes, probably. 13:28:12 fizzie, tried valgrind? Otherwise I'll do it if you tell me how to make a debug build of mcmap 13:29:30 At least a short "okay, it got corrupted" test got no valgrind errors. But of course most of the memory around there is allocated as largeish blocks, and valgrind can't really notice if I just mess up indexing or something. 13:30:11 fizzie, valgrind in memcheck mode won't tell if you enter another valid object 13:30:14 fizzie, so hm 13:30:28 fizzie, exp-ptrcheck or ptrcheck-exp or whatever it was called 13:30:32 for the --tool parameter 13:30:41 (note: probably even slower than the default memcheck) 13:30:50 that tracks pointers jumping between objects 13:30:56 I'll check at home. 13:31:55 The current surface-map update logic is approximately: if placing a block with type T and Y >= current topmost non-air block: set surface on that point to T and height to Y. Then if T was air: rescan from Y down to 0 to find the highest non-air block. Set surface map to that block, and height to that height. 13:32:19 fizzie, also something I noticed is that the orientation of the player marker seems to lag behind when you rotate the view while in a boat 13:32:53 Mhm, yes, I don't think I track the "entity-look" packets at all. 13:32:55 hm 13:33:09 fizzie, well it does change, it just lags behind a bit 13:34:59 fizzie, hm what happens if you try to teleport with mcmap while in a boat? 13:35:35 I don't really know how it sends looking-around while in a vehicle. For location once you've "attached" to a vehicle, it will send only (0, -999, 0) or some-such as the location; for the view direction it might be more complicated, since there's both the current boat-direction as well as the player view direction. 13:35:38 I have no idea. 13:35:52 Perhaps an "illegal move" and a blocked teleport. 13:36:00 fizzie, -999, how strange 13:36:08 Yes, it was some sort of a nonsense value. 13:36:53 fizzie, that kind of "explains" that "placing block in the 999 bug z plane"-bug I read about recently though. For some very weird values of explains. 13:37:25 I don't know what sort of packets the client sends when you're "driving" a boat, either. 13:37:43 hm 13:38:15 The usual entity-move packets are all marked as server-to-client only. 13:39:03 fizzie, in mcmap or in protocol docs? 13:39:16 In protocol docs, though of course those aren't any more official. 13:41:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 13:51:05 fizzie, yeah exploring with mcmap made the system swap trash now 13:51:42 fizzie, how did you say you disabled this at compile time? 13:52:01 Comment out the FEAT_IFORGETTHENAME #define in config.h and rebuild. 13:52:07 ah 13:52:13 FULLCHUNK or some-such. 13:52:43 yeah there is only one there, not too hard to find 13:53:09 The forthcoming "unload far-away chunks on disk" code will probably make it easy to also provide a (runtime) mode where it just forgets faraway blocks. They're always re-sent by the server for the client, anyway. 13:54:20 (Though the hash-map based chunk storage isn't the best one for a "which chunks are outside this box?" query.) 14:06:17 fizzie, hm is it just me or were the pre-halloween seas much larger than the ones you get nowdays? 14:06:42 I haven't really looked at any large-scale maps. 14:08:51 Heh, there's a (custom) minecraft terrain generator that comes with a FUSE filesystem module; you can mount it into a "world" directory and that way get on-the-fly terrain generator inside an unmodified client. That's quite a clever (if weird) trick. 14:09:18 not only weird, crazy 14:09:22 fizzie, link to this? 14:09:31 http://www.nuke24.net/projects/TMCMG/ 14:09:38 I don't know about the quality of terrain it generates. 14:10:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:12:33 fizzie, well the current terrain generator in beta have some issues with desert biome edges. Looks like blocks that contain both sand and grass ends up with wrong rotation. So that the edge blocks are rotated away from the desert. 14:12:40 at least it looks like that on a map 14:13:00 Yes, I've wondered about the edges on the map too. 14:19:09 fizzie, that's brilliant... 14:21:42 Phantom_Hoover, that site needs example screenshots from minecraft of the results of using it 14:22:08 Vorpal, it gets off due to being AWESOME 14:22:20 Phantom_Hoover, hard to tell how awesome it is 14:23:11 fizzie, uh, fuse is on the todo list? https://github.com/TOGoS/TMCMG/raw/master/doc/todo.txt 14:23:25 It also exists already. 14:23:32 heh 14:23:41 https://github.com/TOGoS/TMCMG/raw/master/README "Using with GeneratorFS" 14:24:38 fizzie: coordinates by any chance? 14:25:18 oklopol: No coordinates for you! (That is, I don't really know what's causing the crash in the Windows version.) 14:25:34 How does it fail for you, anyway? For me it just seems to go into a 100% CPU-wastage loop and hang up. 14:25:47 oklopol, didn't it work when you used it last time and other people spoke? 14:30:16 Well, I'm going to try that terrain gen thing. 14:31:54 Great, fuse requires root access. 14:33:00 fizzie: timeout in mc, and the program just disconnects and crashes after a while afaiu 14:33:01 *afair 14:33:07 but i could check at some point 14:33:16 Vorpal: it worked for a while 14:33:32 so the bug can't just be that when people talk, it crashes 14:33:39 that's kinda important, maybe, fizzie 14:35:10 Yes, it's a bit of a show-stopper, admittedly. 14:35:11 " http://www.nuke24.net/projects/TMCMG/" " I don't know about the quality of terrain it generates." <<< it's a programming language, it generates what you ask 14:35:17 but basically what you can do is 14:35:50 you have the perlin function, which is a pseudorandom function that gives you random constant size bumps, you can scale it, and gets big bumps and small bumps on top. 14:36:27 and things like cutoffs for different kinds of terrains are easy to do as well, although it's one of the horriblest languages out there 14:36:33 made a couple levels for friends 14:36:50 or one level for them, and a couple for myself, rather 14:37:07 fizzie: i meant, knowing that may be important 14:38:03 maybe the most retarded thing is that you actually have the 3d perlin function 14:38:15 Great, fuse requires root access. <-- hm... so it does. But I thought only for the initial mount, and for the unmount. Not in between? 14:38:26 but you can't actually say things like insert the 3d coordinates to perlin, and if it goes over cutoff, put diamond here 14:38:38 so you have to reimplement the whole 3d perlin idea by using 2d perlin 14:38:44 or at least, i couldn't find a better way 14:39:16 Oh. Right, right. I'd try a debugger to see where it's hung up, but I don't quite know how to debug a wine-running executable. I'm sure it's somehow possible, though. 14:40:18 also the "fractal" command is quite a letdown in tmcmg 14:40:23 OK, testing it... 14:40:47 it just means you constant amount of levels of smaller and smaller grained bumps 14:40:59 *you add together a constant 14:41:59 unless i misunderstood it, i never actually tried it because if i understood it correctly, it's pretty useless 14:42:51 oklopol, how comes you know so much about TMCMG? 14:44:27 i know pretty much everything about it because i read the documentation so i could make a level with it 14:44:36 the docs are like one page 14:44:51 oklopol, did it work well in the end? 14:44:52 you can call the perlin function, and do basic math on the result. 14:45:19 well i just wanted a world mostly full of sand, so yeah i succeeded well enough :D 14:46:23 there were also some oases 14:46:44 so i made a cutoff that added water and dirt 14:46:53 the perlin function idea makes randomness very nice to handle 14:47:48 because like water and dirt can just look for the same cutoff, and add themselves on different levels below sand level 14:48:06 hm nice worldedit has a //smooth command that you can use to patch up heightmap edges in the scenery. Mostly for the halloween ones. It seems to work decently when the difference in height is 0-20, but doesn't work very well if more than that. At least not when you only select like 10 blocks on each side of the border. (Tried it on artificial border since my local testing server doesn't have any pre-hal 14:48:06 loween scenery) 14:48:24 oklopol, nice 14:49:10 oklopol, so for a given x,y,z perlin always return the same value? 14:49:14 yes 14:49:33 but 14:49:40 oklopol, any way to add a fourth parameter if you want to randomise different things for the same coord. 14:49:49 you can just add 10000 to the y coordinate to get another perlin function 14:50:12 oklopol, hm 14:50:18 because you'll actually be using the 3d perlin function to get *heights* of ground at different x, z spots 14:50:33 hm I see 14:50:57 i don't know if that y+100000 thing was the author's idea originally, to me it seems kinda retarded that you can't just say "put sand where 3d perlin spikes" 14:51:04 but instead 14:51:18 you have to have put sand from 1 to perlin height 14:51:30 i mean, in certain cases the former is much better 14:51:34 like in the case of resources 14:51:38 heh 14:51:43 so what PRNG algorithm is this perlin? 14:51:55 it's a well-known algorithm i first heard about when i read that documentation 14:52:02 oklopol, :D 14:52:05 of course, he doesn't say anything about the grain size 14:52:28 It's a well-known algorithm I first heard about when I was looking at landscape generation ages ago. 14:52:35 so you have to trial and error that out, unless you know what the standard size is in perlin implementations (he surely didn't write the prng himself) 14:52:39 (because he sucks) 14:52:46 But it does appear in things like procedural textures quite often. 14:53:02 do you know how it works? 14:53:19 take a random map of 0 and 1, and add smooth transitions? :P 14:53:22 Y'know what would make SSP so much cooler? 14:53:24 oklopol, you could check the source to find out what the grain size is 14:53:35 "The implementation [of simplex noise] used by TMCMG seems to have lower average amplitude than perlin noise, so you may want to multiply the output more to get a similar effect." -- yes, I don't think either one was written by the author here. 14:53:36 If it added the wreckage of a spaceship to your spawn point. 14:53:51 Phantom_Hoover, being less laggy is like 1000 times more important atm 14:53:54 Vorpal: it's not necessarily easy to see there 14:54:02 oklopol, true 14:54:04 Vorpal, it's not that laggy for me. 14:54:12 Phantom_Hoover, better cpu maybe 14:54:19 fizzie: was that from the tbtmbmtmbtmb page? 14:54:44 oklopol: From it's readme, yes. 14:55:14 Phantom_Hoover, SMP works fine but in SSP it stutters a lot. And no it isn't low FPS as such, but seemingly random delays a few times every second. Between the FPS seems decent 14:55:48 that comment is a bit ridiculous, since you'll have to adjust your intuition on what perlin looks like to fit the mc scale anyway 14:56:14 unless he means the hills are actually different shape or something, in which case multiplication doesn't help 14:56:22 oh hmm 14:57:27 fizzie, that is for simplex. He is just comparing perlin to simplex? 14:57:48 Yes. But it sounds like both implementations come mostly-cribbed from some external source. 14:57:55 true 14:58:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:58:23 you can tell by the programming language that he either doesn't have a very firm grip on what he's doing, or the project was a really really quick hack 14:58:29 the idea of that program is good but the implementation seems poor. I guess it is a perfect fit for minecraft then 14:58:36 hah 14:59:19 the language is just silly, or, well, tell me if you like the way argument passing is handled, in my opinion it was really annoying to use 15:00:20 wikipedia on perlin noise: "The function has a pseudo-random appearance, yet all of its visual details are the same size (see image)." <-- the image doesn't explain what it means here. Exactly what is a "visual detail" and how do you measure it. 15:00:48 look at the image 15:01:03 i doubt there's a definition that makes it more clear than that 15:01:19 oklopol, do you mean the width of the white parts such? 15:01:38 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 15:01:40 which is approximately the same it seems. 15:01:45 yeah 15:02:01 it's not white noise, it's a desert 15:02:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:02:23 oklopol, uh does "desert" have some technical meaning in this context? 15:02:30 no 15:02:33 ah 15:02:36 just a desert. not really the best possible way to put it. 15:02:44 because 15:02:58 deserts have waves, not bumps 15:04:07 hm 15:05:01 oklopol, deserts can have that but there are different types. Stony ones for example. 15:07:41 Vorpal, surely it's clear what visual details means here. 15:07:54 Phantom_Hoover, but is it rigorous? 15:08:14 Vorpal, you could formulate it in terms of self-similarity. 15:08:42 Phantom_Hoover, hm. That might work yes 15:13:04 i would formulate it based on some sort of second order differential, how fast, on average, the slope is changing 15:13:15 dunno what you mean by self-similarity 15:13:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:14:23 slope change + average i suppose 15:14:46 well, dunno if that works, it's a characteristic but maybe not really sufficient 15:15:27 oklopol, I assumed he meant to define it by the fractal nature of it somehow- 15:15:52 it has fractal nature? 15:16:07 oklopol, hm maybe not. 15:16:11 your way sounds better 15:16:13 isn't that exactly what it doesn't have 15:16:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 15:16:34 because if you look at it from further away, it will look *different*, bumps are smaller 15:16:45 oh good point 15:17:06 oklopol, so define it by the lack of fractal nature? 15:17:11 :D 15:17:13 maybe, maybe 15:18:18 it has fractal nature? ← that's my point, there's no fractalness. 15:18:20 it's just "fractal nature" and fractals in general make my "meaningless bullshit" sensor tick, sort like turing completeness, heard one meaning less too many 15:18:26 Phantom_Hoover: ah 15:18:29 so what Vorpal said 15:18:37 You can't make it look the same by scaling up or down. 15:19:27 Phantom_Hoover, but since it is PRNG won't it eventually cycle? Given a large enough region. 15:19:52 first of all a prng doesn't have to cycle even if it's just a function from integers 15:20:01 second of all, no 15:20:29 hm 15:20:45 at least not in a sense that would mean grains appear again 15:20:55 say when you zoom 15:21:12 right 15:21:47 oklopol, however I guess it might when expanding to a larger region being generated at the same zoom level. 15:21:50 secret maryo is fun 15:22:06 what is true is that if you hold a constant size slot of bits B, compute some random value, and recompute the contents of B to get a new seed, then certainly the random values will cycle 15:22:21 Vorpal: might, doesn't have to tho 15:23:00 ohm 15:23:02 hm* 15:23:04 it could increase state as it moves further, and do more complicated computation 15:23:04 brb 15:23:32 helloklopol 15:23:42 if nth bit can be computed in O(1) after computing the n-1 first ones, then it'll eventually cycle, i think 15:23:54 but not sure if that's amortized 15:24:08 really i'm so tired i might be spouting complete bullshit here. 15:24:15 cheater-: helloes. 15:24:30 *not sure that's true if the O(1) is amortized 15:24:35 oklopol: yes 15:24:46 it's not even true if it's not amortized, actually 15:24:55 for instance you could have it print 01001000100001 etc 15:25:01 oklopol: http://www.secretmaryo.org/index.php?page=game_downloads 15:25:02 or a similar sequence 15:25:05 by moving a marker 15:25:23 that constant sequence is not very random, but at least my theorem is not true 15:25:42 so yeah, spouting bullshit here, you may just as well ignore me till tomorrow 15:25:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:25:59 so the usual situation :D 15:26:08 ? 15:26:15 i'm rarely wrong 15:26:31 no i mean the "ignore until tomorrow" 15:26:35 j/k :3 15:26:40 cheater-: what's that? 15:26:47 why did you give it to *me*? 15:26:55 oklopol: you were in the blasting radius 15:27:00 cheater-: i was just kidding too, i'm very often wrong 15:27:09 oklopol: not true! you're always right. 15:27:19 fuck you man 15:27:25 that's hurtful 15:27:57 gah where's oerjan 15:28:01 i wanna talk to him about semigrops 15:28:03 *groups 15:28:15 oh right, i told him i would, so he's probably in a bunker somewhere 15:31:09 What is there to discuss about semigroups? 15:31:28 Have all of the things to say about semigroups not already been said? 15:31:59 :D 15:32:03 possibly! 15:33:17 iirc at least one of the branches of the current theory is about a very special case of inverse semigroups, which are exactly semigroups of partial injective functions 15:33:24 *exactly the 15:34:08 should know what that special case was 15:34:23 but anyway it's a reeeeeally beautiful theory 15:34:30 inverse semigroups are much sexier than groups 15:34:48 (they are a superset of groups tho) 15:35:09 oklopol, out of curiosity, what exactly is a semigroup? 15:35:20 a set and an operation 15:35:24 set is closed under the op 15:35:24 and 15:35:28 associativity 15:35:31 is present 15:35:37 oklopol, isn't that what a group is? (set + operation)? 15:35:50 associativity means (a*b)*c = a*(b*c) 15:36:01 I know what associativity is in general yes. 15:36:30 Vorpal: groups always have inverses, and they always have an identity element 15:36:37 ah 15:36:46 and a semigroup with identity but not necessarily inverses is a monoid 15:37:17 oklopol, "not necessarily" as in "some members of the set might have inverses"? 15:37:40 yes 15:37:44 it's not forbidden 15:37:53 thus groups are monoids 15:37:58 and monoids are semigroups 15:38:02 hm 15:38:36 I don't get "semigroup". 15:38:46 It's more of a third of a group, not half a group. 15:38:48 it's just a name 15:38:57 An INACCURATE one! 15:38:58 yeah 15:39:22 it's a weird name, i didn't like it at first, but now it's just a name to me 15:40:24 Vorpal: regular semigroups on the other hand have inverses (with a different definition), but not necessarily an identity element 15:40:30 oklopol, would the set of all nxn matrices for a given constant n and the operation matrix multiplication be a semi-group? 15:40:41 (in fact if they have an identity, they are just groups) 15:40:47 (or monid even I guess) 15:40:55 yes 15:41:01 monoid, but not a group 15:41:11 why not a group? 15:41:14 oklopol, oh, so it's two thirds of a group. 15:41:17 (homework) 15:41:18 oklopol, well obviously not a group indeed. Not all elements have inverses 15:41:25 oklopol, *that* bit is trivial :P 15:41:28 Phantom_Hoover: no monoid is 2/3 isn't it? 15:41:54 Vorpal: what is not trivial then? the fact that matrix multiplication is associative is pretty obvious if you think of them as linear transformations 15:41:56 Oh, *regular* semigroups. 15:42:09 Wait, how do you have inverses without an identity? 15:42:10 oh sorry 15:42:17 oklopol, well, I was just wondering if there was some other snag. 15:42:22 Phantom_Hoover: x's inverse is a y such that x = xyx 15:43:04 or maybe it's not strictly obvious that it's associative even if you think about them as linear transformations, but anyhow everyone knows that! 15:43:20 oklopol, but not such that forall y, x*x^-1*y = y? 15:43:20 oklopol, hm x = xyx doesn't imply y = yxy in such a case I guess? 15:43:39 Phantom_Hoover: inverse semigroups are when you assume a *unique* x^-1 such that x and x^-1 are each other's inverses 15:44:15 Vorpal: it doesn't, necessarily, although you can prove that in a regular semigroup, all elements x have a pair y such that x = xyx, y = yxy 15:44:51 oklopol, what property guarantees that? 15:44:55 in fact, if x = xyx, then x = xyx = x.yxy.x, and yxy.x.yxy = yxy, so yxy is such a pair 15:45:04 Vorpal: my proof guarantees it 15:45:22 i can clarify if you're not used to following that kind of stuff 15:45:38 well maybe that's easy to read 15:45:39 oklopol, what is the . there in that notation 15:45:45 oh just an explicit * 15:45:49 * was harder to write 15:45:50 ah 15:45:50 ... 15:45:51 :D 15:46:03 -!- elliott has joined. 15:46:26 oklopol, you need to drop associativity for that to no longer work I guess 15:46:48 yeah associativity is very crucial, because it allows rewriting strings context-freely 15:46:51 erm 15:46:57 i mean context sensitively 15:47:00 in the sense that 15:47:16 you can rewrite something, and then use parts of it in another rewrite 15:47:17 like 15:47:58 like? 15:48:18 in xyx = x.yxy.x, i rewrite the x.y.x to x.y.xyx, but then i split the result in a different way to obtain x.yxy.x 15:48:19 i mean 15:48:24 oklopol, well yes 15:48:34 oklopol, I never disputed this 15:48:41 not a very good example because i don't actually use that new decomposition for anything, but that was all i had 15:48:57 Vorpal: just trying to make it clear what i mean 15:49:14 because IT WAS SOOOOOOO COMPLEX 15:49:42 oklopol, not really no 15:49:52 oklopol, it was clear once you said what you meant by . :P 15:50:33 oh, when i said why associativity is crucial, i wasn't talking about that example, but proving things for semigroups in general 15:50:49 oklopol, oh okay 15:52:02 so a semilattice is a semigroup such that all its elements are idempotent x^2 = x, and its elements commute, xy = yx; let S be an inverse semigroup, let us prove its idempotents form a semilattice under the semigroup operation 15:52:09 let e, f be two idempotents 15:52:17 consider the unique inverse x of ef 15:52:32 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:52:43 ef = efxef = ef.xe.ef = ef.fe.ef by the fact e and f are idempotent 15:52:44 oklopol, err can't say I'm very familiar with lattices 15:52:57 21:00:25 according to the guy who deduced how clue works from ski 15:52:57 how 15:53:10 also xe.ef.xe = x.ef.xe = xe because x is the inverse of ef 15:53:30 similarly, fx.ef.fx = fx 15:53:41 hm 15:54:00 now, xx = xe.fx = x because x is ef's inverse => x is an idempotent 15:54:19 but if x is an idempotent, then x^3 = x, and so x is its own unique inverse, which must mean x = ef! 15:54:30 therefore, the product of two idempotents is idempotent 15:54:36 now, let's prove commutativity 15:55:00 oklopol, so what is a lattice then? (And isn't that word used for different things in different areas of mathematics) 15:55:05 ef and fe are idempotent by what we already proved, ef.fe.ef = ef.ef = ef by the fact e and f are idempotents 15:55:11 similarly, fe.ef.fe = fe 15:55:18 so ef and fe are each other's unique inverses 15:55:25 but again, they are also their own inverses => ef = fe 15:55:27 w.e.d. 15:55:28 *q.e.d. 15:55:32 right 15:55:48 elliott: not completely, he knew the basic idea. 15:55:52 Vorpal: wtf happened to your throne room 15:56:00 elliott, something happened to it? 15:56:06 Blown up. 15:56:06 Vorpal: you don't have to be familiar with lattices, since i was talking about semilattices :D 15:56:11 and i defined them! 15:56:52 a lattice is something more complicated, if you remember what boolean algebras were (the abstract axiom-based definition), lattices are boolean algebras with a few less axioms. 15:56:57 elliott, I'll check soon. Minecraft.net seems down. But then I suspect PH. He talked about doing it in a local copy saved with mcmap (it has that feature now) but if he did it on the server then fuck him. 15:57:18 basically, there isn't necessarily a "0" or "1", and there is no complementation 15:57:27 just union and intersection 15:58:08 (that have to satisfy a series of axioms, they don't actually have to be unions or intersections on a set though, just arbitrary binary ops that satisfy the axioms) 15:58:10 wow the lag 15:58:43 elliott, not blown up? 15:58:54 anyhow that's one of my favorite proofs, why aren't you more excited :( 15:59:19 have to wait for oerjan 15:59:22 Vorpal, yeah, I was just playing a trick on him. 15:59:22 oklopol, hm 15:59:30 Phantom_Hoover, oh elliott? 15:59:31 Phantom_Hoover, hah 15:59:38 Vorpal: Actually I knew. 15:59:43 I just wanted to see if you'd freak 15:59:45 *freak. 16:00:13 elliott, hardly more than you would if told that the cube was blown up (once done). You would probably also go online to check :P 16:01:10 Vorpal: No, I'd go online and immediately destroy Mount Vorpal, most likely. 16:01:16 also everyone knows elliott is a crazy mythomaniac 16:01:17 NOTE TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BLOW UP THE CUBE: probably a bad idea. 16:01:41 oklopol: so anyway i designed cled in the logs 16:01:47 elliott, why on earth. It could have been nailor. 16:01:57 too UNINTERESTING; didn't read 16:02:12 elliott, and I wouldn't blow it up. I'm not like you. 16:02:30 Vorpal: It's more like an incentive for everyone because they'd have to listen to you scream if it happened 16:02:33 Phantom_Hoover: So how fucked up is the lighting? 16:02:33 nailor's door was locked :( 16:02:43 elliott, not very, 16:02:48 Not at all, in fact. 16:03:01 Why would it be? 16:03:22 fizzie said they were. 16:03:26 Vorpal: No, I'd go online and immediately destroy Mount Vorpal, most likely. ← did that on the local copy. 16:03:40 I ended up corrupting the world file due to Notch-quality engineering. 16:03:42 :D 16:04:18 I also blew up the wooden house. 16:04:26 Wait, the charge in that was what broke it. 16:04:50 02:56:45 I'll probably make it also load an existing dump and in general auto-persist the world on disk at some point, in order to reduce memory use for long-running game sessions where you wander around far and wide. 16:04:52 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:05:00 fizzie: Do it the sane way; just use mmap and let the OS handle it for you. 16:05:22 elliott, you realise that isn't sane when there is a shitload of small files? 16:05:31 as opposed to a number of large ones 16:05:42 Vorpal: Umm, he should store them in one file and then convert for //save, duh. 16:05:48 No reason to be as stupidly-architectured as the client. 16:05:51 elliott, many files are smaller than the page size. Besides they are gzip compressed. 16:06:01 And mcmap's internal data structures are different to MC's internal ones. 16:06:07 elliott, still, do you suggest storing them uncompressed? 16:06:11 Yes. 16:06:15 elliott, that would be huge. 16:06:22 It's just for what you've seen in the current session... 16:06:42 elliott, no? 16:06:48 Yes, it is. 16:06:49 See logs. 16:07:03 yes it sounds like it would be able to load dumps when starting? 16:07:16 Yes, and? 16:07:27 meaning they would be between sessions 16:08:35 elliott, to get something like Slate working on Windows, would I compile using Cygwin, or MinGW? 16:08:42 * Sgeo barely knows the difference 16:08:58 fizzie: mcmap -c on OS X gives me unloaded chunks all around my current location. 16:09:02 Sgeo: try mingw first. 16:09:08 Ok, ty 16:09:16 Sgeo: or just use linux, it's unlikely to work on win. 16:10:25 fizzie: Dude, is it totally broken for everyone else? 16:14:40 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:16:11 Vorpal: to build debug mcmap, make debug=1 16:16:31 well 16:16:34 make clean; make debug=1 16:17:08 hm 16:17:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:17:22 elliott, I guess the symlink at ./mcmap will no longer work? 16:17:39 I refuse to answer that yourself since you can figure it out in 3 seconds. 16:17:47 elliott, do you know Mercury? 16:17:48 Also, separating normal and debug builds is a good thing. 16:17:51 Actually, you don't need to clean. 16:17:55 make debug=1 will put it in _debug. 16:18:01 So you can keep your current build. 16:18:01 elliott, yes it is a good idea to separate them 16:25:48 so oklopol 16:25:50 cled 16:25:51 best or best 16:32:56 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:54:21 Phantom_Hoover: if you still come back, wanna tell me if i'm on your map? 16:54:50 i didn't go *that* far, and i was thinking settling down 16:55:21 oklopol, where'd you go? 16:55:33 (I'm blowing up the spawn area right now.) 16:55:40 to a random place 16:55:58 you're blowing it up locally or what? 16:56:03 Yes. 16:56:31 just checking, not a good time building a home if you're abandoning the world or something 16:57:18 oklopol: cleddy cled 16:57:24 also oklopol building a house? weird 16:57:34 "house" 16:58:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:00:11 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:00:13 oklopol: so, i heard i was trying to disprove clue works at all 17:00:34 elliott told you or what? 17:00:47 oklopol: i sometimes do things without knowing. i'm sorry if you felt bad about my sleepwalking argumentative self 17:00:53 oklopol: ? 17:00:55 yeah, apparently i have 17:01:13 i didn't feel bad about anything 17:01:16 * elliott compiles a few clue programs 17:01:24 shit, you're right, it actually just spews out python errors :D 17:01:34 $ python repl.py qsort.clue 17:01:37 oh god what is this 17:01:38 $ 17:02:05 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:08:25 oklopol: omg cled is actually working :D 17:09:04 oklopol: http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png 17:09:12 oklopol: this is a graphical representation of {. 0 1 -> 1 . 0 5 -> 5 } 17:09:23 i can even move about and ascend and descend the tree and everything 17:09:37 No more comma? 17:09:45 Sgeo_: that was removed a while ago 17:09:50 Huh 17:09:59 also i can press cmd+s and it prints the tree 17:10:02 nicely-formatted and all 17:10:31 i don't get why i had the comma, i never have those in my languages 17:11:19 oklopol: dude http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png 17:11:24 LOOK AT THE BEAUTIFUL UGLY? 17:11:30 it's like aardappel 17:11:31 except clue 17:12:10 -!- cheater00 has joined. 17:12:40 oklopol: in fact it's very similar to aardappel, since in aardappel you name func params with example values :P 17:12:43 clue just does it PROPERLY 17:13:53 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:15:22 * Sgeo_ blinks 17:15:42 I saw ---> as a solid arrow and was wondering how it would be typed in a real program 17:16:40 Sgeo_: With cled, -> IS a solid arrow! http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png 17:17:06 * Sgeo_ is talking about Mercury 17:17:18 Sgeo_: Inferior to cled. 17:18:44 yeah, was just thinking that 17:19:00 oklopol, still want me to help you on the server? 17:19:13 oklopol: was just thinking what 17:19:28 aardappel has a property clue has, and you're making an editor that looks like a non-ugly version of the aardappel editod 17:19:31 *editor 17:19:57 oklopol: i wouldn't exactly call that screenshot non-ugly, but at least it doesn't have stupid pictures everywhere :) 17:20:02 Phantom_Hoover: i have forgotten all context 17:20:03 also you can't really edit aardappel with the keyboard 17:20:04 oh 17:20:06 whereas all of this is keyboard-based 17:20:16 oklopol, you were lost? 17:20:17 want you to help me, that i do yes, if you log in, check if i'm on your map 17:20:21 no not really 17:20:26 oklopol: in fact I think that editing with this will take quite a bit fewer keystrokes than editing wtih a file 17:21:40 oklopol: i gotta say something though 17:21:49 oklopol: why can't you have zero-arg functions in clue 17:21:50 it's totally nonelegant 17:21:59 just a parser bug? 17:22:11 \" (had the database 17:22:11 community known about maybe types they never would have invented NULLs 17:22:11 and wrecked the relational model. . . " 17:22:13 no 17:22:19 i just didn't want zero arg functions 17:22:20 oklopol: why not 17:22:36 Meh: GLib-GIO:ERROR:gsocket.c:2347:remove_condition_watch: assertion failed: (g_list_find (socket->priv->requested_conditions, condition) != NULL) 17:22:43 oklopol: you can't define _ in clue, that's not very elegant :) 17:22:45 because they are completely useless, and {. -> 3 } looks wrong 17:22:58 oklopol: so useless that you defined one as a primitive 17:23:06 :P 17:23:16 yeah that used to be useful 17:23:20 oklopol: ok well... why can't you return multiple values 17:23:25 that would be more symmetrical 17:23:25 and it will be again, when i add higher-order funcs 17:23:35 you should definitely be able to return multiple values 17:23:40 i mean 17:23:48 that's even more important than multiparam 17:23:52 since 17:24:00 multiparam is more dangerous 17:24:03 for explosions 17:24:09 oklopol: what would f(multiple value returner(x)) do 17:24:25 in clue, you don't have to think about that 17:24:38 oklopol: well right 17:24:40 i'm just asking 17:24:48 presumably None or whatever 17:24:51 and the code gen would arrange for like 17:24:57 multiple value returner@2(x) 17:24:58 to get the third arg 17:25:00 (@0 for first) 17:25:13 oklopol: now what i'd really like to be possible 17:25:16 is {. -> } 17:25:20 zero inputs, zero outputs 17:25:23 oklopol: you wanna know why? 17:25:27 why? 17:25:31 oklopol: as it is, currently, in cled, the program is not always a valid ast 17:25:42 oklopol: when you create an example, it creates two Hole objects (or, well, it will when i code that) 17:25:45 one arg, one result 17:25:48 these can't be serialised to value clue 17:25:54 they're just so that you can enter them, specify what type they are 17:25:56 and then specify a value 17:26:05 if you could have N inputs and N outputs, it could just have two empty input and output lists 17:26:09 and you'd add them at your leisure 17:26:19 and the tree would always be a valid clue tree 17:27:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:27:47 zero inputs and outputs would work just fine if "side-effects" are ever added, which i might just do at some point, not the binary output stream approach tho 17:28:06 oklopol: ew no side-effects, that's so lame 17:28:15 not really 17:28:16 oklopol: but uh, basically a function with zero outputs would never be called I think 17:28:18 as part of a generated program 17:28:30 because you can only call a function as (func@(result number)(params)) 17:28:34 and since result numbers start at 0 17:28:38 there's no valid number for a zero-output function 17:28:43 but the point is, it'd make cled more elegant :) 17:28:52 since having the tree in an invalid state is just lame 17:29:02 it could have you specify the inputs and outputs before it let you do anything else, but that feels annoyingly restricting 17:29:04 it could be called, it's output just wouldn't be numbered 17:29:05 i mean 17:29:13 with the current implementation, no, it wouldn't be called 17:29:19 which is what you meant 17:29:28 so ignore what i said 17:30:02 oklopol: well the way i see it is the simplest way to impl it would be to turn every func call from 17:30:05 name (params) 17:30:05 into 17:30:12 name @resultnum (params) 17:30:17 oklopol: ok, if you didn't feel bad, but elliott has given me shit already, maybe i should start talking shit about clue, just to cash in my debt ;p 17:30:24 that way you can't have f(multiple args(foo)), it's always f(multiple args@0(foo)) or @1 etc 17:30:27 *etc. 17:30:30 cheater00: works for me 17:30:31 :D 17:30:36 so since 0 is first result, for a zero input function, there is no valid @ number 17:30:40 and it'd never be calle 17:30:41 d 17:30:48 oklopol: clue is php 17:31:12 oklopol: worse, clue is c++ 17:31:19 okay that's enough kthx 17:31:27 NOEUGH 17:31:30 ENOUGHEONUGENOUGHEOUGNEOUGHE 17:31:40 oklopol: what 17:31:40 CAN'T TAKEA IRTSARJTIJIT 17:31:42 what? 17:31:49 what? 17:31:51 huh? 17:31:56 hm? 17:31:57 eh? 17:32:01 what? 17:32:02 excuse me? 17:32:09 i beg your pardon? 17:32:11 sorry? 17:32:13 que? 17:32:16 nani? 17:32:20 fag 17:32:28 elliott broke it 17:32:33 he's such a spoil sport 17:32:35 * variable works on a new language 17:32:39 no i thought that was a good ending 17:32:49 oklopol: so uh got any suggestions for cled that don't involve holes 17:32:50 I mean 17:32:54 elliott: nope! 17:32:56 it could be that if you + to add an example 17:32:59 you have to say e.g. 17:33:01 li 17:33:03 meaning "list to integer" 17:33:03 i just play minecraft and be a happy! 17:33:04 but eugh 17:33:07 so lame 17:33:16 oklopol: so um is clue abandoned :p 17:33:36 Perl is a general purpose language. It's also known to be the only widespread use obfuscated language. 17:33:38 lulz 17:33:46 oklopol: so do u vant to normalize clue? 17:34:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:34:08 oklopol: i think clue could actually lift off really well, there's nothing else that does what clue does 17:34:10 elliott: no 17:34:19 that's funny, this channel has only been witness to "perl is esolang" sentiments about 1000000 times :D 17:34:23 oklopol: yay 17:34:24 cheater00: it could totally become mainstream! 17:34:40 and with the current extreme TDD approach and python lifting off it could make me famous 17:34:40 but i'm not working on it today, no 17:34:43 and you too maybe 17:34:44 possibly this week 17:34:49 elliott, that is on the wiki 17:34:52 but the idea is to come up with a spec 17:34:55 that makes sense 17:35:03 Gnar, I don't get why the Win build fails; it is as if it just decides to close the connection. 17:35:06 i think some random anon added it and nobody bothered to remove it. 17:35:17 elliott, it should be kept - tis true 17:35:22 oklopol: I don't suppose you see any sort of "GLib-GIO" error message on your end when it goes? 17:35:25 'tisn't, not really 17:35:34 odd, sure 17:35:47 but esoteric shouldn't be applied to every language just because people think it's weird. 17:35:48 fizzie: doesn't ring a bell 17:36:05 lol @ cheater00 thinking clue is practical 17:36:07 I get one, but I don't know, it might be just a side-effect of the connection disconnectering. 17:36:19 hey clue is TOTALLY practical 17:36:27 totally 17:36:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:37:09 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:37:13 oklopol: you have to swear now to always use cled for everything 17:37:14 oklopol: i believe it could become a practical language 17:37:19 cheater00: it really couldn't :) 17:37:20 and/or framework for existing languages 17:37:27 it seems like it could, before you figure out how it actually works. 17:37:29 i think it could as well 17:37:43 well 17:37:43 oh oklopol, you so zany 17:37:46 oklopol: let's ignore the torl 17:37:47 for certain values of practical 17:37:52 elliott, what should I call my random chance language ? 17:37:59 oklopol: i feel it's a fairly new paradigm 17:38:12 "the torl"? 17:38:20 oklopol: i think in fact what you got right now - the language in itself - is just very basic 17:38:28 also, it's a new paradigm because it's amazingly stupid ... in that puttign it into practice is nearly impossible 17:38:29 *putting it 17:38:40 elliott: it's how retarded people pronounce troll. 17:38:57 fitting 17:39:14 oklopol: i think you could have multiple very languages very distant from eachother, derived from clue, just using different inference methods 17:39:36 oklopol: because those inference methods are actually what defines clue 17:39:48 oklopol: hence i was talking about defining your own inference methods 17:40:36 oklopol: i think clue is a bit near to the automatic prover territory, isn't it? 17:41:26 cheater00: not raelly. 17:41:27 *really. 17:41:38 cheater00: also example-based programming isn't really a HUGE NEW IDEA 17:41:45 by saying 17:41:50 "omg different inference engines" 17:41:51 you're saying 17:41:59 "chuck out all of the current work on clue and keep the obvious core idea!" 17:42:04 which is stupid because the work was the hard part 17:42:37 shush 17:42:50 cheater00: um what i'm saying is perfectly true 17:42:58 yes. shush. 17:43:54 business in my pants 17:44:07 oklopol: that's where the business always is. 17:44:10 how's THAT for a slogan? 17:44:51 i'm gonna go make some breakfast and watch the ballet dancers next door 17:45:40 take pix k 17:45:44 -!- pumpkin has joined. 17:46:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:52:23 that's illegal 17:52:47 take mental pix 17:53:26 done 17:53:38 with my mental-undress-ray 17:55:50 oklopol, don't encourage him. 17:56:08 to do what, send me pictures of ballet dancers? 17:56:16 oklopol, to be cheater. 17:56:38 Ignore him and we'll all be much happier. 17:56:45 but if someone was encouraging me to be oklopol (elliott), i would be really pleased 17:57:05 oklopol: be oklopol 17:57:17 Phantom_Hoover: be oklopol 17:57:19 cheater00: be oklopol 17:57:21 fizzie: be oklopol 17:57:23 Vorpal: be oklopol 17:57:26 clog: be oklopol 17:57:31 elliott: be oklopol 17:57:34 elliott, don't tell fizzie to be oklopol! 17:57:48 If fizzie is oklopol, who will be fizzie? 17:57:51 oklopol, be fizzie. 17:58:04 no 17:58:07 we don't need fizzie 17:58:09 we just need more oklopol 17:58:18 true 17:58:28 But there will be wars over interior decoration! 17:58:40 elliott, Processing... ... ... Error 49123: Mutant produced. Details: Now Vorpol. 17:58:56 Is that like Vorpal but intelligent? 17:59:07 i wouldn't want to be someone who has "toilet" as part of their name 17:59:08 elliott, it is like the most extreme sides of me and oklopol 17:59:34 :D 17:59:39 So incredibly stupid and irritating and awesome and intelligent? 17:59:41 oklopol: What have you done 17:59:52 elliott, it was you who did it 18:00:08 I blame Vorpal 18:00:12 hahaha vorpol luuuuv it 18:00:14 elliott, I blame you 18:01:01 bbl food 18:01:26 oklopol: http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed§Hdr=on&spellToler=&search=klo 18:02:48 i know that word, yes 18:03:07 that's funny because 18:03:10 oklopol has "lo" in his name 18:03:13 so obviously he's low 18:03:14 BROW 18:03:15 low-brow 18:03:19 oklowbrowpol 18:03:32 and obviously i'm input and output 18:03:33 ell IO tt 18:03:43 Vorpal is clearly everyone's PAL 18:03:45 and also into VORe 18:03:50 really i could just go back to playing locally, you guys are never here 18:03:54 wow this is like reading tea leaves but better 18:04:01 oklopol: i was on but then you DIDN'T LET ME VISIT 18:04:10 elliott, in fact I'm into VORs since I'm into flightsims :P 18:04:12 well obviously i don't want to see any of you 18:04:14 elliott: and i eat ch's? 18:04:32 cheater00: no, you're che guevara 18:04:33 elliott, it's a type of omnidirectional navigational beacon. 18:04:34 obviously 18:04:41 Vorpal: yes. right. sure. 18:04:41 yes. 18:04:58 What about MEEEEEE 18:05:09 elliott, and you move impure IO (ellIOtt) 18:05:22 18:03 elliott: and obviously i'm input and output 18:05:22 18:03 elliott: ell IO tt 18:05:28 elliott, oh missed that 18:05:29 Phantom_Hoover: you're j. edgar hoover 18:05:30 Phantom_Hoover: You're an ant named Tom. 18:05:46 elliott, which is over something 18:06:03 elliott: i think you're offtopic 18:06:08 elli OT t 18:06:13 hah 18:06:22 cheater00: I think you're gender-neutral 18:06:23 ch E ater00 18:06:24 that explains the channel 18:06:25 also a fan of Spivak 18:06:34 fuckin science 18:06:36 #esoteric OT there 18:06:39 so off topic 18:06:42 it all fits 18:06:47 also you drive an audi TT 18:06:51 E's OT, Eric. 18:06:52 translation 18:06:56 He or she is off-topic, Eric. 18:07:01 the only remaining question is 18:07:02 cheater00, no, he is a news agency 18:07:04 WHO IS ERIC 18:07:10 cheater00, (TT is a Swedish news agency) 18:07:15 excuse me 18:07:18 i just decoded #esoteric 18:07:20 can we science please 18:07:28 elliott, I said it was OT in it yes 18:07:28 bbl 18:07:32 yes 18:07:35 but i decoded the whole thing 18:07:39 #esoteric -> E's OT, Eric. 18:07:39 maybe it's about Eric the Esot 18:07:43 He or she's off-topic, Eric. 18:07:47 this fits #esoteric 18:07:48 obviously 18:07:49 this channel is about Eric the Esot 18:07:50 so who's Eric???? 18:07:52 maybe oklopol is Eric 18:07:54 the esot. 18:08:40 oklopol, what was your name again? 18:08:53 klo 18:08:56 toilet. 18:08:59 he's also an OPO 18:09:08 which makes no sense because there's nothing named OPO 18:09:49 i broke it :DDDD 18:10:05 you broke clue? 18:11:04 no 18:11:04 cled 18:14:42 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:15:17 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:18:02 -!- elliott has joined. 18:18:45 WHAT IST BROKE 18:19:08 #esoteric -> E's OT, Eric. <-- hm 18:19:10 indeed 18:19:13 drakhan's heart. 18:19:22 Who. 18:19:27 WHAT IST BROKE <-- your connection was broke before 18:19:30 No. 18:19:31 (; 18:19:32 Not broke. 18:19:34 who is drakhan 18:19:37 + elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection) 18:19:41 Vorpal: that is correct 18:19:53 elliott, the TCP connection was broken. 18:19:56 elliott, as for my person - I`m new here 18:20:21 hello 18:20:30 are you on one of those horrible keyboard layouts where you can't put an apostrophe in properly 18:20:31 hi 18:20:47 Hi. 18:20:52 elliott, well /whois says .pl, you could check that 18:21:08 No, it`s my preference 18:21:15 Yeah, Poland. 18:22:05 It's your preference to use backticks instead of apostrophes? 18:22:23 even diamonds feel worthless when your items are all made of it for free :( 18:22:32 Is it so important? 18:22:42 I'm just curious, since it makes lines harder to read. 18:23:32 A matter of habit. 18:23:37 "Somewhat typical of PHP’s API, there are actually thirteen different built-in array sorting functions." 18:26:20 -!- j-invariant has joined. 18:27:38 philosophical question 18:27:40 if j-invariant's j varied 18:27:42 what would happen 18:28:13 PHP's design philosophy is "you should never have to write any real algorithms. any algorithm that actually does something difficult should be built in." 18:28:33 quintopia: "Except that, we'll actually implement it badly." 18:28:39 Apparently usort() used to be — wait for it — BUBBLESORT. 18:28:40 elliott: I would stay the same 18:28:56 friend of mine wrote bot in php and i said "it should have a rot13 function" and he determined that the best method to implement it ... would be to make a call to rot13() >_> 18:29:13 Apparently they left their CS classes in the three seconds between "This is bubblesort" and "NEVER USE BUBBLESORT." 18:29:26 Maybe one should have to aquire a liscence to write algorithms 18:29:33 sort of like a driving liscence 18:29:48 j-invariant: european computer mechanics license 18:29:53 (there's a european computer driving license) 18:30:00 (it is a hilariously easy Microsoft Office thing) 18:30:05 of course if you have a full proof that you algorithm works you can use a provisional algorithm liscence to have it uploaded into a sandbox 18:30:31 Which one is bubble sort? 18:30:35 but it can never be actually used unless it is also experimentally determined to be efficient in practice 18:30:39 have you ever heard of Dijkstras room? 18:30:40 Phantom_Hoover: the horrible one 18:30:55 What's the *algorithm*? 18:31:01 quintopia: bitch, you can work that out without testing it 18:31:07 if your theory doesn't match practice your theory wasn't good enough 18:31:09 and you're executed 18:31:10 Phantom_Hoover: the one with the near-guaranteed quadratic runtime in number-of-comparisons 18:31:24 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_sort#Implementation 18:32:19 " PHP's design philosophy is "you should never have to write any real algorithms. any algorithm that actually does something difficult should be built in."" <<< somehow i doubt it actually has any useful algorithms in it 18:32:20 elliott: sure, but sometimes it's easier to test it on all the possible hardware platforms than prove for each instruction set (and the respective latencies) that the constants in the runtime are low 18:32:26 does it? 18:32:35 quintopia: instructions are irrelevant, mostly 18:32:36 oklopol: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-win-fba7271.zip and then just doubleklick the .exe. 18:32:44 you don't get "oh this c code is really slow on sparc but really fast on x86" 18:32:57 just takes one level of abstraction to even those out 18:33:03 i mean say if i want to turn an NFA into a DFA 18:33:08 what's the php function 18:33:39 that's basically the only thing you'll ever need 18:33:39 oklopol: nfatodfa($nfa) OR nfa_convert('Dfa',$nfa,2) (the 2 is to disable the old version of the function) 18:33:43 elliott: it's mainly an issue when involving floating point stuff, memory/disk access, and other I/O 18:34:04 or automatonConvt($nfa, getconv('NFA'), getconv('DFA'), $output) 18:34:23 ah thanks 18:34:49 oh man how did i break this 18:34:51 oklopol: note: lies 18:34:54 How do you even fail at quicksort? 18:35:02 Phantom_Hoover: qsort is not really something that should be used. 18:35:11 What's wrong with quicksort? 18:35:13 Recursion? 18:35:17 Phantom_Hoover: worst-case performance 18:35:20 and what about that algorithm that solves the two-pair case of pcp? 18:35:21 whatever(n^2) 18:35:23 quacksort 18:35:29 --> if you sort arbitrary user-inputted data 18:35:33 the marked version 18:35:33 you gon get DDoSed 18:35:36 erm 18:35:37 or just DoSed 18:35:45 Phantom_Hoover: e.g. merge sort is much better 18:35:53 oklopol: do merge sort in clue :P 18:36:02 is there an in-place sort with the performance guarantee of merge sort? 18:36:05 i was thinking i'd, but then i not'd. 18:36:21 quintopia: i think there's an in-place merge sort 18:36:40 but that's kinda hairy, if i recall correctly 18:37:06 also you can do quicksort without recursion, i think 18:37:10 yes 18:37:13 heap sort is also good 18:37:16 i think 18:37:18 but you don't get any better worst case performance 18:37:19 well 18:37:20 actually 18:37:21 you know what 18:37:22 just use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timsort 18:37:23 heap sort is very fast, and can be done in-place 18:37:24 :P 18:37:25 heap sort is also not in-place 18:37:27 stable mergesort 18:37:30 how 18:37:36 how to do in place oklopol 18:37:38 quintopia; merge sort is worst case n log n 18:37:38 i don't think it's in-place but 18:37:39 who cares 18:37:42 quintopia: do what in-place? 18:37:46 mergesort or if you're feeling fancy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timsort 18:37:50 heap sort 18:38:33 quintopia: You can do merge-sort in-place and some variants have even been described by Finnish guys: http://www.diku.dk/hjemmesider/ansatte/jyrki/Paper/mergesort_NJC.ps 18:38:34 oh well you use an array, and 1 (2 3) (4 5 6 7) (8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15) ... where those are the levels of the tree 18:38:44 fizzie: Finnish guys, what would we do without them. 18:38:53 you can then multiply index by 2 and either add 1 or 0 to get to children, and divide by 2 to get to daddy 18:39:18 aww hi daddy 18:39:20 where's mommy 18:39:24 is this in a cruel world where all list mothers run away 18:39:25 oh god 18:39:26 this is the worst 18:39:28 your sorting algorithm 18:39:30 what has it 18:39:31 of 18:40:13 fizzie: lol no wonder a prof at our uni mentioned it 18:40:24 it's actually funny how broken this is... 18:40:28 jukka teuhola is a prof at our uni 18:40:33 well more like, depressing 18:40:39 katajainen hangs there too 18:40:49 diz ir oklopol 18:40:50 oklopol: Yeah, we hear about Kohonen maps all the time at WaveU. 18:40:57 :P 18:41:02 fizzie: oh god don't call it that 18:41:14 so wait how old is fizzie now, 47? 18:41:38 (Also WSOM 2011 deadline is Jan 14th, submit your full papers now!) 18:41:44 48? 18:41:47 oh it's even PRACTICAL in-place mergesort :D 18:41:49 Twentyseven, I think. 18:41:54 49 then 18:42:06 oklopol: i want to see the previous paper, Impractical In-Place Mergesort 18:42:20 oklopol: "average O(2^n), but hey, it's in-place mergesort!" 18:42:29 oklopol: can you write fib with clue? 18:42:35 And the earliest draft, "completely useless out-of-place mergesort". 18:42:38 cheater00: yes. 18:42:40 efficiently too. 18:42:47 can you write a clue compiler? 18:42:53 cheater00: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6379491136.txt 18:43:03 j-invariant: yes, with more pain than anyone should have to endure :D 18:43:48 j-invariant: has been done, so yeah 18:43:57 oklopol: no, IN clue 18:44:00 oh 18:44:01 j-invariant means 18:44:07 not in a very nice way 18:44:11 :D 18:44:13 understatement prize 18:44:15 for instance parsing is nicest to do with mutual rec 18:44:37 oh yeah 18:44:37 is there a clever way to do it though? by reflecting the way clue works 18:44:39 that's totally the main reason 18:44:45 j-invariant: nope, not even remotely 18:44:50 you can't harness it at runtime at all 18:44:54 darn 18:44:59 maybe if you had eval :P 18:45:06 clue interp ~ eval 18:45:07 nothing as crude as eval 18:45:09 but maybe there could be a slightly modified form of clue 18:45:17 which allows for a nontrivial self interpreter 18:45:28 well it's not really an interp 18:45:32 clue is pretty inherently a compiler 18:45:33 as much as can be 18:46:18 clue could even be thought of as a metalanguage 18:46:38 (but hopefully people don't) 18:47:50 Are there some detailed pages on Clue with source code? 18:47:58 not really 18:48:30 j-invariant: clue.py :P 18:48:31 there's the esolang page, that's it 18:48:32 isn't the probability of getting O(n^2) runtime for a random-pivot quicksort unbelievably low? 18:48:46 quintopia: yes, but the point is that you can't trust your users. 18:48:55 it's easy to craft such inputs 18:48:59 and this has been done 18:49:05 quintopia: also, why bother? merge sort is just as easy 18:49:21 i'm just trying to understand the theory man 18:49:24 merging is almost the same thing as pivoting 18:49:26 i'm not the guy in charge of this shit 18:49:40 just the other one unzips, the other one zips 18:49:41 where can i find these carefully crafted inputs? 18:50:04 quintopia: no he means if you run qs on user-given input on your server, then ppl can give crafted inputs that make slow it up 18:50:31 you can craft such inputs if you know how pivoting is done 18:50:35 this shit is well-known btw 18:50:36 oklopol: yes, but i don't see how any adversary could slow a random-pivot quicksort 18:50:44 it seems like random pivoting is unbeatable 18:50:57 indeed it does 18:51:06 sure, if you use a crypto rng 18:51:06 i don't know if it *is* though 18:51:08 but that seems unlikely. 18:51:10 anyway, meh 18:51:12 merge sort is nicer anyway 18:51:35 also quicksort is unstable 18:51:36 which is just lame 18:51:58 quintopia: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.44.5903 18:52:35 anyway the theoretical worst-case performance is reason enough :) 18:52:59 i was already convinced. you were preaching to the choir 18:53:15 i'm just curious about the theory of DoSing qs 18:53:57 oklopol: you need an easier character to type than > for the "goes to" symbol in clue 18:54:03 cheater00: it's -> 18:54:04 not > 18:54:08 also that is like 18:54:10 the stupidest complaint 18:54:10 ever 18:54:21 do you realize > is inside -> ? 18:54:33 > is trivial to type, if it isn't your layout sucks 18:54:34 : parse error on input `type' 18:54:38 also this is an esolang 18:54:43 stop bothering us with your petty concerns :| 18:54:48 also you're boring me 18:54:51 cheater00: i have to agree with elliott, that is even less interesting than elliott's additions! :P 18:55:08 oklopol: i totally removed branchers, man 18:55:10 oklopol: the most important reason for me to use python over php is that it doesn't use braces :D 18:55:12 and implemented your default thing 18:55:16 default branch thing 18:55:19 shower me with praise 18:55:22 oklopol: being able to type in code without shift is veddy important 18:55:22 elliott: everyone ignored them already :D 18:55:26 well except in ski 18:55:35 oklopol: i did #x into x, that's like 18:55:38 total improvement 18:55:41 also removed the devil ,s 18:55:45 oklopol: can you do map/reduce with clue? 18:55:49 no 18:55:51 you can't 18:55:52 but you will be 18:55:55 why can't you? 18:55:57 able to 18:56:00 because it has no first-class functions 18:56:02 -!- sshc has joined. 18:56:02 because functions not ho 18:56:07 functions not ho 18:56:07 indeed 18:56:19 what about map/reduce with a hardcoded reduction 18:56:23 yes, that's trivial. 18:56:25 like just + 18:56:46 of course you can do that 18:56:47 -!- luatre has joined. 18:57:00 might even compile fast! 18:57:18 does Clue have higher order programs? 18:57:23 no. 18:57:24 no, as we just said :P 18:57:26 not atm 18:57:33 :: sum ~ {. [] -> 0 } sum ~ {:. [1 2 3] -> 6 : [2 3] -> 5 :. [4 5 6] -> 15 : [5 6] -> 11 } sum ~ add; cdr; 0 18:57:33 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (sum) :( 18:57:35 they would be easy to add though 18:57:35 hm 18:57:37 no lambda! WHAT! 18:57:39 what did i do wrong 18:57:47 i mean ridiculously easy 18:57:51 oklopol: wow! I was hoping they would be some tremendously difficult addition 18:57:54 http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=-lang.org#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&source=hp&q=lang.org&aq=f&aqi=g-s1g-c1g-ms2g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=ca05a7bb65e82229 18:57:56 oklopol 18:57:57 There goes my life 18:57:58 what did i wrong 18:58:25 oklopol: WHAT DID I WRONG 18:58:26 I'm going to die from lack of food and sleep due to reading about programming languages for the rest of my short life. Bye all. 18:58:30 essentially you'd have to give an apply function to glue, and have syntax for functions in examples 18:58:38 Sgeo_: ah so you won't talk about them? 18:58:39 great, have fun 18:58:44 Sgeo_: aren't most of then rubbish? 18:58:49 j-invariant: doesn't matter to sgeo 18:59:11 Sgeo_: anyway are you going to structure this, like study a new one at the start of each fortnight? 18:59:15 No 18:59:16 Sgeo_: lol http://www.thorn-lang.org/ is high on that list, which Gregor did something with :P 18:59:19 at least i've seen it before 18:59:21 Sgeo_: why not? 18:59:21 and he's listed on the page 18:59:24 Sgeo_: what is your plan? 18:59:29 j-invariant, just keep reading 18:59:30 to read them all and not eat or sleep and then die 18:59:31 as he stated 18:59:49 Sgeo_: well maybe you are just fundamentally different than me, but if I did that I would not really get much out of it 19:00:13 elliott: you don't have car 19:00:18 oklopol: oh right 19:00:19 j-invariant, if by "get something out of it" you mean "be capable of writing a line of code in that language" than yes, well 19:00:22 *then 19:00:23 oklopol: you need pattern matching :P 19:00:27 car and cdr should be a single command 19:00:33 Sgeo_: no I didn't mean that 19:00:35 oklopol: returning a list, good idea! 19:00:38 oklopol: waaaaiit. 19:00:39 haha 19:00:41 :D 19:00:43 :: sum ~ {. [] -> 0 } sum ~ {:. [1 2 3] -> 6 : [2 3] -> 5 :. [4 5 6] -> 15 : [5 6] -> 11 } sum ~ add; car; cdr; 0 19:00:43 TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for -: 'float' and '_socketobject' :( 19:00:48 ...xD 19:00:50 not exactly what i meant, but why not 19:01:07 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:01:12 -!- luatre has joined. 19:01:13 :: sum ~ {. [] -> 0 } sum ~ {:. [1 2 3] -> 6 : [2 3] -> 5 :. [4 5 6] -> 15 : [5 6] -> 11 } sum ~ add; car; cdr; 0 19:01:14 Compiled in 0.0132999420166 seconds 19:01:14 sum: (a) => [a] | [] => 0 | _ => add(@(cdr(a)) car(a)) 19:01:20 cheater00: fold ^ 19:01:26 Is Epigram 1 any good? 19:01:28 elliott: þorn.org is the preferable address :P 19:01:37 Phantom_Hoover: No :-P Not compared to Epigram 2! 19:01:43 oklopol: why does the recursion become the first argument, that's kinda WEIRD 19:01:48 elliott, why? 19:01:51 Gregor: omg that works :D 19:01:56 Phantom_Hoover: BECAUSE IT'S NOT EPIGRAM 2 19:02:03 :. sum([1 2 7 9]) 19:02:03 19 19:02:14 j-invariant, you know about this stuff. 19:02:18 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:02:21 oh thanks Phantom_Hoover 19:02:24 -!- sshc has joined. 19:03:01 :: factorial loop ~ {. 0 6 -> 6 . 0 24 -> 24 } factorial loop ~ {:. 3 1 -> 6 : 2 3 -> 6 :. 1 6 -> 6 : 0 6 -> 6 } factorial loop ~ multiply; pred 19:03:01 Compiled in 0.00318908691406 seconds 19:03:01 factorial loop: (a, b) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) multiply(a b)) 19:03:36 Phantom_Hoover: Everything that went into epigram 1 is spelled out in Conors research papers: Read those instead.. and once you've donen that you can read the new ones about the theory of Epigram 2 19:03:42 :. factorial loop(0 factorial loop(1 factorial loop(2 factorial loop(0 3)))) 19:03:42 6 19:03:48 ...xD 19:03:52 Phantom_Hoover: Once you've done all that.. maybe Epigram 2 will be useable! 19:03:53 Timber just caught my eye 19:03:54 :. factorial loop(0 factorial loop(1 factorial loop(2 factorial loop(3 factorial loop(0 4))))) 19:03:54 48 19:04:00 oh good 19:04:09 wait it should be 4 0 19:04:14 Hmm. Does MapReduce = map . reduce with optimisations? 19:04:18 :. factorial loop(0 factorial loop(1 factorial loop(2 factorial loop(3 factorial loop(4 0))))) 19:04:18 0 19:04:20 oh wait no 19:04:21 0 4 19:04:22 right 19:04:25 :. factorial loop(0 4) 19:04:25 4 19:04:26 :. factorial loop(0 5) 19:04:26 5 19:04:34 so we want 19:04:34 Mobl.... sounds... intersting yet scary 19:04:36 factorial loop(rest this) 19:04:37 so 19:04:40 factorial loop(recurse this) 19:04:49 * Sgeo_ would NOT like to see Mobl take over the world 19:05:11 wtf is mobl 19:05:39 http://www.mobl-lang.org/ 19:05:45 :. factorial loop(factorial loop(factorial loop(0 1) 2) 3) 19:05:45 6 19:05:51 :. factorial loop(factorial loop(factorial loop(factorial loop(0 1) 2) 3) 4) 19:05:51 2880 19:06:03 :. factorial loop(factorial loop(0 1) 2) 19:06:03 2 19:06:19 Sgeo_, Christ that's stupid. 19:06:26 :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ { [0 1 2 3 4] -> 2880 : [0 1 2 3] -> 6 :. [0 1 2 3] -> 5 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr 19:06:26 Compiled in 0.00108098983765 seconds 19:06:26 what: (a) => [a] | _ => 0 19:06:29 ... 19:06:31 oklopol: ^ 19:06:37 oh 19:06:38 :D 19:06:39 bad syntax 19:06:47 :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2 3 4] -> 2880 : [0 1 2 3] -> 6 :. [0 1 2 3] -> 5 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr 19:06:47 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :( 19:06:48 How many times will people reinvent the same language? 19:06:52 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:06:58 -!- luatre has joined. 19:07:01 Same language? 19:07:01 :: factorial loop ~ {. 0 6 -> 6 . 0 24 -> 24 } factorial loop ~ {:. 3 1 -> 6 : 2 3 -> 6 :. 1 6 -> 6 : 0 6 -> 6 } factorial loop ~ multiply; pred 19:07:01 Compiled in 0.00199413299561 seconds 19:07:01 factorial loop: (a, b) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) multiply(a b)) 19:07:05 :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2 3 4] -> 2880 : [0 1 2 3] -> 6 :. [0 1 2 3] -> 5 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr 19:07:05 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :( 19:07:10 hmm 19:07:27 :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2 3 4] -> 2880 : [0 1 2 3] -> 6 :. [0 1 2 3] -> 6 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr 19:07:27 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :( 19:07:38 :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2 3] -> 6 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr 19:07:38 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :( 19:07:41 ... 19:08:35 :. factorial loop(factorial loop(0 1) 2) 19:08:36 2 19:08:49 :. factorial loop(0 1) 19:08:49 1 19:08:53 :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2] -> 2 : [0 1] -> 1 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr 19:08:54 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :( 19:08:57 wtf???? 19:08:59 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:09:04 -!- luatre has joined. 19:09:07 :: factorial loop ~ {. 0 6 -> 6 . 0 24 -> 24 } factorial loop ~ {:. 3 1 -> 6 : 2 3 -> 6 :. 1 6 -> 6 : 0 6 -> 6 } factorial loop ~ multiply; pred 19:09:08 Compiled in 0.00293016433716 seconds 19:09:08 factorial loop: (a, b) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) multiply(a b)) 19:09:19 :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2] -> 2 : [0 1] -> 1 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr 19:09:20 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :( 19:09:22 oklopol 19:09:47 elly 19:10:02 "Like many programmers with a pulse, I am compelled to create my own programming language." 19:10:06 http://jolt-lang.org/ 19:10:08 do you want me to tell you what's wrong? 19:10:17 oklopol: it stack overflows for no apparent reason 19:10:19 but yes 19:10:20 i do 19:10:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:11:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:11:25 hmm 19:11:56 i don't see anything wrong 19:12:25 :. factorial loop (0 6) 19:12:25 6 19:12:33 :. factorial loop (10 1) 19:12:34 3628800 19:12:36 erm 19:12:43 so what gave an error exactly? 19:12:44 Plain language! 19:12:46 "what"? 19:13:13 oklopol: yes 19:13:17 the examples for what make no sense, so there's really no telling what the code will do 19:13:25 erm 19:13:40 except you get a runtime error during compilation 19:13:46 so obviously 19:13:54 factorial loop is called with parameters what make it infloop 19:14:01 and you don't catch exceptions anymore 19:14:14 (incidentally, this is why i caught theem) 19:14:15 *them 19:14:33 oklopol: i'll catch stack overflow exceptions then? 19:14:39 hmm yeah prolly 19:14:56 Dear Pika: 19:15:01 "Mersenne Twister based pseudorandom number generator." is not a language feature. 19:15:07 In conclusion, fuck you. 19:15:12 http://www.pika-lang.org/features/ 19:15:50 Chu 19:16:20 Sgeo_: Technically that depends :P 19:16:39 Sgeo_: If it has a random-based object system ... :P 19:16:42 Sgeo_: why not? 19:17:22 j-invariant: Language features are features of the LANGUAGE, not libraries provided. 19:17:37 Well, the features page doesn't say _language_ features 19:17:46 It also doesn't list every single library 19:17:46 Oh, it didn't? :P 19:17:50 the different between language and library is fuzzy 19:18:00 Well, in that case, j-invariant: That's an extremely boring feature :P 19:18:05 hehe 19:18:41 We have a library that lets you retrieve content via HTTP! 19:18:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:19:25 Why you should use my language: Ships with binding to libcurl. 19:19:27 The rest of Pika is boring 19:19:39 Sgeo_: Everything except for the random number generator? ;) 19:20:13 hey Sgeo_ 19:20:14 use Apex 19:20:15 it's the best 19:20:35 Well, it's in contrast to those languages who ship with stdlibs who use the xkcd RNG 19:20:55 ...on-demand? 19:21:38 It's. A. Language. For. Code. That. Runs. On. salesforce.com. 19:21:38 what? 19:21:46 what 19:21:59 Enterprise Language 101 19:22:06 you know, every time you talk to us about languages 19:22:10 it's time you could spend googling more 19:22:14 elliott, you don't mean http://wiki.developerforce.com/index.php/Apex_Code:_The_World's_First_On-Demand_Programming_Language do you? 19:22:18 That's what Google came up with 19:22:21 no, i don't 19:22:46 Hahah, reading that. 19:22:53 i mean Apex, the expressive, functional imperative language from Cat's Eye Technologies 19:23:22 'Like all aspects of salesforce.com’s application and platform technologies, Apex Code is “on demand,” running entirely on Force.com without requiring any local servers or software' <-- this ... is what they mean? LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWL 19:24:55 Yeah, it's the first language that HAS to be run on the cloud 19:25:05 (Probably not) 19:26:22 elliott, I can't find Apex on cpressey's site 19:26:36 it's too secret. or too vapourware. 19:26:45 also mostly formulated by me. 19:27:59 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:29:59 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 19:32:11 Phantom_Hoover: how come you are interested in it anyway? 19:32:20 in what 19:32:27 oh epi 19:32:33 Gregor: APPLIED PHLEBOTINUM IS BETTER THAN LOGIC 19:32:38 The consensus is: " Let’s briefly look at some non-solutions to the software problem. First, we can’t just prove everything to be correct. This is way too expensive and most real systems lack formal specifications." 19:32:46 " At present, it is not even clear that the correct behavior of large systems can be formalized at all, though hopefully this will be possible someday (exercise for the reader: formalize Asimov’s Three Laws in HOL, Coq, or a similar language)." 19:32:53 why is this broken, what manner of witchery is this 19:32:54 Everyone seems to agree with this (tripe) 19:33:07 j-invariant: eh? 19:33:29 WHAT MANNER OF WITCHERY IS THIS!!!!!! 19:33:37 elliott: it is exceptional to find people that seriously think proofs are sensible 19:33:43 wtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtwfwtwffwtwftwfwwffwtwfwtfffffff 19:33:45 or useful etc etc 19:34:00 j-invariant: you can find them interesting without finding them useful :) i.e. computer-based systems 19:34:02 j-invariant: Clearly math education should be mandatory. 19:34:17 i'm not entirely sure that Coq/Epigram/etc. are useful for proving theorems. for writing verified software, of course. 19:34:22 but regardless, they are interesting. 19:34:38 ohh 19:34:42 i like how tk eats up all exceptoins 19:34:44 and doesn't print them 19:34:45 *exceptions 19:34:46 well Tkinter 19:34:49 it's very nice 19:35:10 oh dear, that is a problem 19:36:34 oklopol: can you give your executive opinion on a part of cled 19:36:41 pikhq: huh? it is 19:36:52 j-invariant: no it isn't 19:36:54 arithmetic education is 19:36:59 hmm it's kinda broken when you tab away... todo, fix 19:37:41 j-invariant: That's no more math education than the alphabet is literature education. 19:38:15 Is it possible to teach math? 19:39:07 Quite likely. Is it possible without a mathematician becoming supreme ruler of the Department of Education (or your local national equivalent)? Probably not. 19:39:29 oklopol i need opinion 19:39:36 Because almost everyone is convinced that we already teach math, and quite well... 19:40:22 haha they must be crazy 19:41:29 j-invariant, ...you didn't know this? 19:41:46 didn't know what? 19:41:52 Were you homeschooled for your entire life until you moved out into a cave in the wilderness? 19:41:57 xD 19:42:01 That maths education is nothing of the sort. 19:42:01 I didn't pay much attention in school 19:42:44 Phantom_Hoover: anyway I am curious how&why did you get interesetd in epigram 19:42:53 It seems... interesting. 19:42:57 heh 19:44:28 combinatorics is interesting 19:45:36 Man. I just now realised that IPv4 depletion is literally happening *this month*... 19:46:00 Awesome. 19:46:10 blargh 19:46:14 Well. It *could* happen early February. 19:46:47 So wait, what was P(civilisation collapses) again? 19:46:54 0. 19:47:15 I'd suggest not being in the stock market, though. 19:47:26 Or strategically selling short. 19:47:53 But P(civilisation collapses | the stock market fluctuates) is rather high, no? 19:48:08 Quite high, yes. 19:48:26 it won't have that big a deal 19:48:29 NATs are not very hard to set up really 19:48:37 and remember that most hosting companies and the like 19:48:42 already have way more IPs than they use 19:48:51 elliott: Telecoms are boned. 19:48:55 so it's not like people are gonna see "lol no you can't have a server we have no ip to give it" 19:48:57 pikhq: oh sure 19:48:59 i'm just saying that 19:49:03 everyone already has IPs to spare 19:49:05 so it won't be a _huge_ deal 19:49:29 Except that adoption of IPv6 will be really expensive at this point, and it will be mandatory pretty soon. 19:49:50 Mostly for the telecoms. 19:55:11 Hah. 19:55:44 After depletion, RIPE and AfriNIC will only allocate IPv4 to entities with IPv6 allocations. 20:00:04 lol 20:10:10 was there something derisive about measuring code in KLOCs? 20:10:34 j-invariant: eh? 20:22:00 elliott: http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7740?context=3 20:22:58 j-invariant: heh 20:23:04 j-invariant: i think they're right though ... _for now_ 20:23:09 0.999.. = 1 therefore math is not perfect 20:23:27 j-invariant: I have a feeling that with the progress, probably a... loss of precision will be had 20:23:43 j-invariant: i.e., it turns out that if you prove a kernel, like, "only 80%" correct, it takes only 30% of the work 20:24:01 "After depending typing, the only type of bugs left are those that are not provable, like if prime numbers ever end and such." lol wat 20:24:21 elliott: well generally you would only prove the very very awkward difficult parts: So 80% correct would be 99% as hard 20:24:41 j-invariant: Perhaps! ...but then perhaps not, you see people writing unit tests for every damn thing 20:24:42 elliott: LOL 20:24:54 j-invariant: Anyway, consider, the very very awkward difficult parts tend to consist of multiple subproblems 20:25:02 j-invariant: so if you prove most of those but not all 20:25:08 j-invariant: or if you prove that all of them apply in, like, 80% of cases 20:25:35 j-invariant: like, I can imagine some proof system that lets you state some property on, like, floats, and as long as it can experimentally verify it for a few thousand random values, and also pathological ones like denormalised numbers 20:25:39 then it lets it be accepted as a theorem 20:25:43 useless, mathematically 20:25:47 but for proving software, potentially very useful 20:27:15 ? 20:27:19 that's called testing elliott 20:27:24 peopl already do that 20:27:44 j-invariant: not really 20:27:49 j-invariant: I mean, say you have a big, formal proof 20:27:54 j-invariant: that relies on some twiddly property of floating point numbers 20:28:03 j-invariant: if you can prove that, using that theorem 20:28:14 and then have that hypothesis about floating points "experimentally" demonstrated 20:28:17 then it allows the proof 20:28:28 that's a whole lot better than just testing the component 20:33:04 j-invariant: lol ololol ololo olol ololololo lololoo 20:33:06 j-invariant: "Does computer science completely miss the point of a computer -- namely, that it is a creative tool?" 20:33:19 One could argue that computer science is like a "pen science" where scientists find ways to write as quickly as possible with a pen and to fill up a page with as much text as possible. 20:33:19 That would of course completely miss the point of a pen. 20:33:19 One could say something similar about computer science with its focus on time and space efficiency of computations. 20:33:21 The computer -- like a pen -- is a creative tool and the focus should be on the invention of new kinds of software applications -- not on making existing ones more efficient. 20:33:22 Universities should have a creative field of study -- distinct from computer science -- for novel uses of computers. 20:33:24 roffflllll 20:33:26 xDD 20:33:46 worst thing ... ever 20:33:51 XD 20:34:02 how did that get on /r/compsci 20:34:26 j-invariant: i like how they think computer science is just about like 20:34:27 optimising programs 20:34:40 "hat does the /r 20:34:46 *What does the /r mean? 20:34:57 Phantom_Hoover: subreddit 20:34:59 it's part of the url 20:35:02 reddit.com/r/subredditname 20:39:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:39:21 oklopol you'll love this program 20:39:26 do you know why oklopol 20:44:44 hm 20:44:49 elliott: where was that 20:44:49 * Sgeo_ accidentally mentally dropped the why 20:44:57 j-invariant: /r/compsci 20:45:01 Sgeo_: what 20:45:03 oh 20:45:03 yeah I know 20:45:09 j-invariant: it's on the front page 20:45:12 of compsci 20:45:14 I looked there 20:45:34 it's #3 20:45:37 so you're not looking quite hard enough :D 20:45:41 http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez4op/does_computer_science_completely_miss_the_point/ 20:46:24 what thehell? that's not on my front page at all 20:47:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:47:37 elliott: looks like the poster actually agrees with that stuff http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez4op/does_computer_science_completely_miss_the_point/c1c2upo 20:47:43 j-invariant: i have a feeling the poster asked the question 20:47:45 elliott: P.S. did you not notice this is voted zero :| 20:47:47 i just realized i haven't used ftp in so long that i don't have a proper ftp client installed. any recommendations? 20:47:54 j-invariant: i did yeah 20:47:59 quintopia: ftp(1) 20:48:07 meh 20:48:16 it's trivial to use 20:48:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:48:39 yeah, but it requires me to remember the command names. i want drag and drop for instant gratification 20:48:59 read: i'm lazy, motherfuckers 20:51:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:54:33 IRONY: http://i.imgur.com/DkbPs.png 20:54:51 (after someone got into his account in the thread an xss was discovered in stackoverflow) 20:56:24 It's ok, he never uses StackOverflow anyway 20:57:08 jeff atwood is such a dork 20:59:20 *thread where an 20:59:33 i wish i could delete jeff atwood's face 20:59:34 or all of him 21:00:36 j-invariant: have you written any clue programs yet? 21:00:51 no I am waiting for the wiki page: please write it! 21:01:21 j-invariant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28oklopol%29 21:01:30 j-invariant: it is not very complete... e.g. bags can also contain objects 21:01:33 but it's a primer :> 21:01:42 oh wait it does say that 21:01:44 ok just read it then 21:02:04 I should write a Clue compiler 21:02:18 j-invariant: uh, "good luck" 21:02:27 j-invariant: clue.py is 717 lines 21:02:55 obviously the problem is that you're using python 21:03:00 j-invariant: :> 21:03:17 j-invariant: writing clue programs is great fun though, you struggle through and go wtf, but the moment the compiler spits out the right function 21:03:22 it feels like it was so easy 21:03:25 and your code is so simple 21:04:26 ::: http://pb.vjn.fi/p9634238413.txt 21:04:26 Downloading... 21:04:27 Compiling, just a minute... 21:04:27 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (:..: factorial stack-hogging factorial) :( 21:04:33 aw man ... 21:04:38 comments don't actually work 21:04:56 so how do you compile clue? 21:05:12 j-invariant: difficultly... 21:05:19 j-invariant: it's basically advanced brute force :) 21:05:23 it's not just breath first generate all programs? 21:05:29 no way 21:05:39 there's a reason there's more than one {} branch in each function 21:05:42 well, most functions 21:05:47 i.e., there's a reason you do that 21:05:49 there's a reason the bag exists 21:05:53 and there's a reason :. : exist to denote recursion 21:06:05 okay this is getting complicated 21:06:25 j-invariant: hehe 21:06:52 j-invariant: yeah there is basically no way you could do recursive functions (only flow control other than branching really) with a stupid search like that 21:06:58 the search is stupid, not the idea, that is 21:07:08 hm 21:07:56 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:08:01 -!- luatre has joined. 21:08:02 ::: http://pb.vjn.fi/p9634238413.txt 21:08:02 Downloading... 21:08:03 Compiling, just a minute... 21:08:03 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (:..: factorial stack-hogging factorial) :( 21:08:06 wtf 21:08:14 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:08:19 ooh this is a clue bot! 21:08:19 -!- luatre has joined. 21:08:21 ::: http://pb.vjn.fi/p9634238413.txt 21:08:21 Downloading... 21:08:22 Compiling, just a minute... 21:08:22 DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (:..: factorial stack-hogging factorial) :( 21:08:26 don't use it i'm busy fixing it :> 21:08:32 :P 21:08:39 wait what ... 21:08:52 o, lol 21:10:44 hey j-invariant 21:10:52 how many ways can you represent 6, if . is +1 and : is +2 21:10:59 and those are the only symbols you can use 21:11:39 i don't know what . and : do 21:11:47 oh they are symbols for +1 and +2 21:11:58 well ...... is 6 21:12:03 ::: is 6 21:12:03 Downloading... 21:12:04 ValueError: unknown url type: is 6 :( 21:12:19 ... 21:12:20 j-invariant: yep 21:12:22 but you can combine them 21:12:22 wtf 21:12:29 Gregor: it's a cluebot. 21:12:32 :.... .:... ..:.. ...:. ....: 21:12:32 Downloading... 21:12:33 URLError: :( 21:12:33 http://lemonparty.com 21:12:41 It's a fail :P 21:12:42 Gregor: xD 21:12:50 ::.. <-- can't be bothered drawing all these but there are 4!/2!2! of them 21:12:50 Downloading... 21:12:51 ValueError: unknown url type: <-- can't be bothered drawing all these but there are 4!/2!2! of them :( 21:13:01 ::: http://lemonparty.com 21:13:01 Downloading... 21:13:01 Compiling, just a minute... 21:13:02 Compiled in 3.00407409668e-05 seconds 21:13:05 xD 21:13:07 XD 21:13:09 LOL 21:13:27 Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ curl http://lemonparty.com 21:13:28 21:13:32 hardly surprising it was fast then 21:13:49 elliott: 1 + 5!/1!4! + 4!/2!2! + 1 21:14:21 j-invariant: ok, i'm not gonna write out all 2906 then :D 21:14:44 that's 13?? 21:14:52 oh, W|A fails at parsing 21:14:59 wtf 21:15:03 coppro: what 21:15:07 yeah I wasn't using proper syntax 21:15:19 4!/2!2! is obviouly 24 21:15:33 and 5!/1!4! is obviously 24*120 21:15:43 it's 5!/(1!4!). 21:18:33 I mean 4!/(2! * 2!) 21:18:40 i.e. 6 21:19:05 it makes no sense to use abcd/efgh as abcdfgh/e 21:19:11 I don't who does this 21:19:16 well, everyone does, but I don't know why 21:19:25 sometimes it looks nicer 21:19:26 kinda 21:19:33 same reason you see \frac{1}{x} ... in equations 21:19:36 yes but in that case you can use (abcd/e)fgh 21:19:40 true 21:19:42 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:21:39 same reason you see \frac{1}{x} ... in equations ← as opposed to...? 21:23:21 Phantom_Hoover: \frac{...}{x} 21:23:29 elliott: words letters = map (flip replicateM letters) [1..] 21:23:37 Oh. 21:24:14 j-invariant: was that...responding to my #haskell question in here? 21:24:14 :D 21:24:43 @pl words letters = map (flip replicateM letters) [1..] 21:24:43 words = flip map [1..] . flip replicateM 21:25:07 j-invariant: that produces a list of lists, you mean concatMap surely 21:25:22 Hey, an @pl which is pretty! 21:25:24 Re the "how many times", it's actually fib times: http://oeis.org/A000045 "F(n)=number of compositions of n-1 with no part greater than 2. Example: F(4)=3 because we have 3 = 1+1+1=1+2=2+1." 21:25:52 elliott: oh flip replicateM letters =<< [1..] then 21:26:22 Prelude Control.Monad> takeWhile (\x -> s x < 7) (words ":.") 21:26:22 [":",".","::",":.",".:","..",":::","::.",":.:",":..",".::",".:.","..:","..."] 21:26:23 j-invariant: wait what 21:26:28 Prelude Control.Monad> let s('.':xs)=1+s xs;s(':':xs)=2+s xs;s []=0 21:27:48 j-invariant: is it just not ordered like that? 21:28:09 j-invariant: yay i got all 13 21:28:10 [":::","::..",":.:.",":..:",".::.",".:.:","..::",":....",".:...","..:..","...:.","....:","......"] 21:28:39 Re the "how many times", it's actually fib times: http://oeis.org/A000045 "F(n)=number of compositions of n-1 with no part greater than 2. Example: F(4)=3 because we have 3 = 1+1+1=1+2=2+1." ← COINCIDENCE? 21:28:47 wat 21:29:18 Phantom_Hoover: And of course it's fib, since for all the F(n) ways to write n, there are F(n-1) those that start with '.' and F(n-2) those that start with ':'. 21:29:43 Yes, I know. 21:29:52 Admittedly the example is a bit silly. 21:30:03 fizzie: how many times what 21:30:17 oh how many ways to write? 21:30:18 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:30:20 elliott: Should've been that, yes. 21:30:23 -!- luatre has joined. 21:30:32 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9634238413.txt 21:30:32 Downloading... 21:30:33 Compiling, just a minute... 21:30:33 Compiled in 0.000127077102661 seconds 21:30:38 ...that's definitely not right 21:30:49 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 21:30:49 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Changing host). 21:30:49 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 21:31:04 Phantom_Hoover: What's with that x- suffix. 21:31:44 j-invariant: lol: 21:31:48 21:28 EvanR-work: set of finite strings from a countable alphabet is countable? 21:31:48 21:28 Cale: EvanR-work: yes 21:31:48 21:28 EvanR-work: interesting 21:31:53 j-invariant: WHAT A REVELATION 21:32:01 elliott: he meant something else 21:32:07 are you suure 21:32:08 elliott: he was thinnking base infinity 21:32:13 oh 21:32:19 well that's continued fractions :) 21:32:21 elliott: which is not at all what he /said/ :P 21:32:25 elliott, no idea. 21:32:34 wait no it isn't 21:32:38 elliott: everyone in #haskell is going "oh I misread it" 21:32:38 Ask the guy on #freenode who cloaked me. 21:32:46 21:29 cdsmithus: EvanR-work: It's pretty easy to see. Just enumerate all the 0-length strings (finitely many), then all the 1-length, then the 2-length, and so on. Every finite string has some length, and will be reached eventually 21:32:49 finitely many 0-length strings 21:32:53 all 1 of them 21:34:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:36:10 ::: did i break this ~ {. 0 -> 1} did i break this ~ 1 21:36:11 Downloading... 21:36:11 ValueError: unknown url type: did i break this ~ {. 0 -> 1} did i break this ~ 1 :( 21:36:14 :: did i break this ~ {. 0 -> 1} did i break this ~ 1 21:36:14 Compiled in 0.00750088691711 seconds 21:36:17 yes, yes i did 21:36:48 ohhhh 21:36:50 xDDD 21:37:25 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:37:30 -!- luatre has joined. 21:37:34 ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9634238413.txt 21:37:34 Downloading... 21:37:34 Compiling, just a minute... 21:37:35 Compiled in 0.080559015274 seconds 21:37:35 factorial: (a) => [a] | _ => factorial loop(a 1) 21:37:35 stack-hogging factorial: (a) => [a] | 0 => multiply(pred(0) pred(0)) | _ => multiply(a @(pred(a))) 21:37:35 factorial loop: (a, b) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) multiply(a b)) 21:37:35 fibonacci: (a) => [a] | _ => fast fibonacci loop(a 0 1) 21:37:36 fast fibonacci loop: (a, b, c) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) c add(b c)) 21:37:36 slow fibonacci: (a) => [a] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(a)) @(pred(pred(a)))) 21:37:41 commentz wurk! 21:38:57 j-invariant: so my program's structure is quite flawed, what about you 21:39:01 any flawed programs lately? 21:42:15 everything I have written in the past ... forever 21:42:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:43:15 j-invariant: :D 21:43:18 j-invariant: have you ever written GUI PROGRAMS 21:43:26 yeah they suck :| 21:43:32 I don't know how to make it look okay 21:43:34 j-invariant: haha what did you write 21:43:40 well I tried to make a little REPL 21:43:40 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 21:43:50 GUI PROGRAMS WHERE ARE THEY GET THEM AWAY 21:44:53 Phantom__Hoover: cled! 21:44:55 cled is a gui program 21:44:58 it's the best gui program ever in fact 21:45:02 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa 21:45:20 j-invariant: how didn't it look ok? :p 21:46:12 http://i.imgur.com/6eG6a.png 21:46:31 j-invariant: that doesn't look bad 21:46:45 it sorts of sucks 21:46:50 I'd add a bit more spacing after the rendered equation, and possibly make that whole upper pane white-backgrounded if i could 21:46:56 j-invariant: what did you write it with? 21:47:07 elliott, http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezre7/did_notch_give_details_why_they_switched_from_git/ 21:47:09 gtk haskell 21:47:09 j-invariant: anyway it's not as ugly as cled http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png :D 21:47:13 j-invariant: by far 21:47:21 Phantom__Hoover: "From my own experience with both I find Subversion to be easier to understand." lol 21:47:24 I like the look of cled 21:47:29 j-invariant: really? it's hideous :D 21:47:35 elliott, is Subversion awful? 21:47:41 elliott: I want to make a GUI for interactive program derivation 21:47:46 Phantom__Hoover: It's centralised. Its aim is to be "CVS done right" which is impossible. So yes. 21:47:50 j-invariant: that would be amazing 21:48:01 elliott: Haskell 21:48:10 eh? 21:48:12 like that paste I showed you: except you do it all in place 21:48:14 right 21:48:21 which paste 21:48:21 :P 21:48:25 hey that would be really cute I should actually make it 21:48:38 j-invariant: btw cled isn't really meant to look like that... ideally instead of those awful borders, it'd have like, those outwards poking ones... so that it looks like things deeper in the tree stick out further, you know? 21:48:39 3d style 21:48:46 j-invariant: and then what would happen is, descent would be shown by element background 21:48:49 not by border colour 21:48:52 that's on the todo list 21:49:31 Program derivation? 21:49:56 j-invariant: it'd be a lot nicer because right now borders kinda drown out everything 21:50:40 Phantom__Hoover: here is a derivation of init in terms of foldr http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=VBavHxpt 21:50:45 ah right 21:50:58 hm actually there is no nice way to make a GUI for this 21:51:20 j-invariant: btw, isn't your cons just (:) there... 21:51:40 oh wait 21:51:40 no 21:51:53 the cons name is kinda confusing though :p 21:52:40 elliott: I don't think there is a good way to make a GUI for program derivation 21:52:57 there are too many different ways to structure things 21:53:07 What else is on voxelperfect.net other than esolang stuff? 21:53:09 perhaps... 21:53:10 Phantom__Hoover: nothing 21:53:12 that we know of 21:53:14 Phantom__Hoover: did you read that? 21:53:30 j-invariant, yes, but it confuzzled me. 21:53:33 why? 21:54:14 j-invariant: that's wrong 21:54:26 Because I have no idea what fold is meant to do. 21:54:37 Phantom__Hoover: oh you should learn about foldr 21:54:44 copumpkin: it is? 21:54:51 have you tried running it? 21:55:06 Well, I *know* what foldr is, but I thought it had a function involved... 21:55:08 > foldr cons [] [1..10] 21:55:09 saying why it's wrong >> telling to run :) 21:55:10 [] 21:55:14 :P 21:55:15 copumpkin: fail 21:55:19 copumpkin: cons is defined in the where clause 21:55:22 :t cons 21:55:23 forall a. a -> [a] -> [a] 21:55:24 ^ that's not used 21:55:29 ? 21:55:33 no, I @let that myself 21:55:35 init = foldr cons [] where 21:55:35 cons x [] = [] 21:55:35 cons x (y:ys) = x : y : ys 21:55:36 is the final result 21:55:38 oh 21:55:39 as defined in the where clause 21:55:46 wait what 21:56:03 wait, wait what 21:56:08 I wrote @let cons x [] = []; cons x (y:ys) = x : y : ys 21:58:52 > let cons x [] = [x]; cons x (y:ys) = x : y : ys in foldr cons [] [1..10] 21:58:53 [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10] 21:59:02 that's revealing 21:59:08 :) 21:59:21 j-invariant: you should write a clue program ... with cled! 21:59:32 copumpkin: that's not the intention, though 21:59:34 elliott: I thought it was a debugger 21:59:39 j-invariant: ... :D 21:59:47 elliott: I know! I'm just saying, it shows where it's going wrong 21:59:54 j-invariant: I have no idea how http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png could be used to debug anything 22:00:03 j-invariant: it's actually an editor 22:00:18 j-invariant: what you see in that screenshot is the clue branch 22:00:19 {. 0 1 -> 1 22:00:19 . 0 5 -> 5 } 22:00:43 you can descend and ascend through that tree, basically, move about, and edit individual atoms 22:00:49 plus add/remove to the lists, etc. 22:00:55 the lists in a display sense, not in clue-code-sense 22:01:47 hmm i shouldn't link to such scary screenshots when #haskellers are around 22:01:54 i have a feeling they have some modicum of taste 22:02:00 copumpkin: can you confirm/deny? 22:02:07 ? 22:02:15 I'm not a true haskeller 22:02:21 that #haskellers have some modicum of taste 22:02:27 nah, no taste here 22:02:32 and thus linking to things like http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png when they're around is likely to scare them off 22:02:41 I've seen worse 22:02:47 :) 22:02:56 but keep in mind that I have no taste 22:03:05 so my idea of worse may actually be better 22:03:11 i should implement that background-based system, like now 22:03:17 and it'd stop scaring off helpless children 22:04:57 http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7ks6 22:05:19 HAY GUYS: GODELGODELGODELGODELGODEL 22:05:30 when will people learn this is just not relevant? 22:06:47 godel is often relevant! but usually not in the cases when people think it is 22:08:00 "GODELGODELGODEL" is the sound of a mathematician turkey. 22:12:30 the incompleteness from outer space 22:14:07 what's a nice, light blue 22:14:18 0000FF 22:14:24 THAT IS NOT LIGHT 22:14:29 FFFFFF 22:14:34 THAT IS NOT BLUE 22:14:40 BBBBFF 22:15:08 that is... not nice... actually it's koay 22:15:09 okay 22:15:09 :P 22:15:22 givin' cled a makeover 22:17:18 http://twitter.com/notch/status/24558373093515264 Reeds are now sugar canes. I am not even kidding. 22:17:18 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Sugar_Cane 22:17:31 fizzie: Vorpal: Gawp at the ...ness. 22:19:19 I found some reeds but I could not find them again :( 22:19:21 I lost them 22:20:18 j-invariant: *SUGAR CANES 22:20:24 j-invariant: have you joined the server yet :p 22:20:43 elliott: what is the address? 22:21:35 j-invariant: I can't tell you, that would be wrong; you'll have to look at a four days old log or something where we discuss mcmap! 22:21:46 That is a guess of course. Naturally. 22:21:46 why not 22:21:52 An utter guess. 22:21:56 I dno't want to join if I'm not supposed to 22:22:02 :P 22:22:13 you should ask the boss if its okay 22:22:16 get oklopol to tell you, he has oklopolic immunity 22:22:25 and that's no joke 22:23:55 Our administratafator has been a bit gone for the evening; my guess is some sort of debauchery. 22:24:39 fizzie: You're the right-hand man, go tell j-invariant the address. 22:25:31 elliott: and from those sugar canes you will be able to produce high-fructose corn syrup >:) 22:25:38 Oh, but I couldn't possibly, that'd be insubordination. 22:26:00 Our administratafator has been a bit gone for the evening; my guess is some sort of debauchery. ← MATLAB debauchery? 22:26:02 oklopol: Insubordinate! 22:26:21 fizzie: So is there a scenester named SUGAR CANE who isn't in your pants either? 22:26:23 Your sign needs changing. 22:26:32 Oh, right. 22:26:39 also whiskey and creme brulee 22:26:39 Or just leave it as a protest :P 22:26:50 Well, maybe I'll just be all RETRO-reed. 22:26:52 Oh man, whiskey in Minecraft would be amazing. 22:27:05 "I was into reeds before they were sugar canes." 22:27:10 It'll, like, restore 70% of your health, but if you drink too much your vision starts going blurry and stuff. 22:27:14 And tilting around. 22:27:17 fizzie: you had reeds on vinyl? 22:27:37 i had reeds before they sold out 22:27:48 "Reeds on Vinyl", sounds like a band. 22:28:14 "Sounds like a band" sounds like a band. 22:28:20 fizzie: with the amount of things the internet has called good band names, we'd need like 1,000 times more bands than have ever existed to be created. 22:28:58 "'Sounds like a band' sounds like a band" sounds like a band 22:29:33 My band will be called #1#="\"#1#\" sounds like a band". 22:29:37 Literally that. 22:29:43 s/band/band name/g 22:29:47 heh 22:29:50 First album will naturally be called Main Page. 22:29:56 Because fuck Wikipedia! 22:33:39 * oerjan recalls there was a norwegian race horse named "Sugar Cane Hannover" 22:33:59 *hanover 22:34:21 the people who name horses are like people who name cats fun things, except on crack 22:34:31 like, you start naming cats silly things 22:34:34 but then when you get a job 22:34:35 and become a pro 22:34:37 you become a horse name 22:34:37 r 22:34:53 famous enough to have a no.wikipedia page 22:34:57 what is it with horse names, anyway? 22:35:11 born in sweden actually 22:35:52 "Followed by the horse formerly known as Horse." 22:36:15 I found that more hilarious than it was 22:36:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:36:25 if horse racing actually involved like 22:36:27 programming jokes 22:36:30 i'd watch 22:36:39 But oh! Here comes My Other Car Is A Cdr! 22:37:16 * Sgeo_ hits elliott with an element and a list 22:37:24 that's cons. 22:37:25 I'll name my horse 🐎. 22:37:42 Name a horse after the Unicode snowman. 22:37:45 Someone tell me if Firefly is non-crap. 22:37:58 elliott, you think I'm capable of thinking of some stupid not-that-funny thing to say about car and cdr? 22:38:00 it isn't 22:38:02 Phantom__Hoover: It's... Joss Whedon-y, isn't it? Said as someone who hasn't seen it. 22:38:04 FireFly: BIAS 22:38:05 or, well, I dunno 22:38:15 FireFly, it isn't non-crap? 22:38:23 From the little I've seen, yes 22:38:25 assuming you mean the show 22:38:28 Phantom__Hoover: I get the feeling there's more western there than scifi. 22:38:32 "Space western", as they say. 22:38:34 I know people like Firefly 22:38:35 You mean that it is, in fact, crap? 22:38:46 Gregor: Name a horse the GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA. 22:38:49 Gregor: Pronounced like that. 22:38:51 And that it was cancelled 22:38:51 * Phantom__Hoover applauds Sgeo_ for his research skills. 22:39:03 I THINK THEY MADE A MOVIE OUT OF IT 22:39:06 GUYS? GUYS??? 22:39:11 So wait, noöne has actually seen it? 22:39:19 randall munroe likes it, which is always a bad sign 22:39:21 Well then, I see no harm in joining the crowd. 22:39:31 elliott, he liked it pre-xkcdecay. 22:39:41 elliott, Randall Munroe likes breathing. 22:39:52 Sgeo_: Breathing is kind of a pain. 22:39:55 sometimes. 22:40:01 Phantom__Hoover: Sure, but he also liked Python. 22:40:10 I like Python! 22:40:12 elliott: not breathing even more so 22:40:16 elliott, Python is a necessary evil. 22:40:22 Phantom__Hoover: Is it? 22:40:32 * Sgeo_ cries as his lingua fraca gets spit upon 22:40:51 Python is a terrible language. 22:41:00 elliott, lazy people and idiots want to program. 22:41:12 Phantom__Hoover: Funny. I don't want them to. 22:41:39 elliott: Dude, I'm going to change MY name to GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA 22:41:43 elliott, yes, but it filled a gap in the market, so it was inevitable. 22:41:43 And would you rather they used Perl? 22:42:03 Phantom__Hoover: No, but ... intelligent people who like Python are odd. 22:42:06 Gregor: I approev. 22:42:07 *approve. 22:42:12 Phantom__Hoover: And they, strangely, exist. 22:42:15 oklopol! 22:42:30 oklopol likes Python for, like, totally different reasons to everyone else. 22:42:54 Sgeo_: *franca 22:43:05 elliott, what reasons? 22:43:20 Phantom__Hoover: Well, not "clean code and comprehensive standard libraries" :-) 22:43:37 elliott, do you think I'm an idiot? 22:43:39 oerjan: don't be harsh, english isn't Sgeo_'s lingua fraca 22:43:47 * Sgeo_ lols 22:43:49 Because oklobrainese compiles easily to Python? 22:43:50 Sgeo_: Not really, but I have the feeling you like Python for the wrong reasons. 22:43:53 Phantom__Hoover: WHO KNOWS 22:44:06 elliott: hey i wasn't intending to start a fracas 22:44:17 oerjan: ...you win :D 22:44:47 YAY 22:45:27 There's a language called HaXe 22:45:34 AND MY HAXE 22:45:45 As far as I can tell, the only reason people like it is its "portability" 22:45:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:46:30 I need to start drinking more coffee. 22:47:38 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:48:44 Fancy's supposed to be able to target a bunch of stuff eventually 22:48:52 hey j-invariant design my program 22:48:54 somehow 22:49:13 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:49:19 Now that I look at http://www.fancy-lang.org/features/ again, it looks boring 22:49:33 Except for the BDD thingy, which puts Scala's thing in mind 22:50:12 example-driven development is the only acceptable policy. 22:50:27 lol 22:50:31 NOT 22:50:32 KIDDING 22:50:45 * Sgeo_ still wants to know if it's TC 22:50:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:50:52 what, Clue? 22:51:20 elliott: ideally the language _specification_ should be example-driven, no? 22:51:22 Yes 22:51:30 Sgeo_: yes, it is 22:51:41 Huh. That's awesome. 22:51:43 How? 22:51:45 oerjan: oh yes definitely, but unfortunately there's no other example-driven processors 22:51:55 Sgeo_: you can basically write simple imperative loops that use each other 22:52:01 and there's also an ski interpreter 22:52:05 and quicksort 22:52:06 soo 22:52:06 QED 22:52:11 most people would consider SKI enough 22:52:17 but, you might not consider that so if, e.g., 22:52:20 elliott: i guess it's hard when you don't have any examples 22:52:21 you can't express every turing machine as a unique program 22:52:34 but, yes 22:52:38 you can basically write code imperatively 22:54:48 bleh 22:54:51 does anyone know tk here 22:56:26 I know of it. And that Python comes with libraries for it 22:56:44 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. 22:56:48 HAHA 22:57:07 :D 22:57:10 are they serious 22:57:14 I think so 22:58:42 j-invariant: oh god, he is 22:59:05 this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something 22:59:17 aw everyone is ganging up on him 22:59:34 j-invariant: except for the ones who are telling him UML can work ... lol 23:00:16 WTF does UML have to do with Haskell? 23:00:28 Is UML some sort of imperative thingy? I thought it was flowchartiness 23:00:34 Which I guess is imperative 23:00:48 It's OO. 23:01:05 Ah 23:02:30 elliott: http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7sdo 23:03:15 elliott: stupid guy, first comes out with this irrelevant halting problem crap then starts being all arrogant 23:04:06 heh 23:04:22 lol 23:04:23 all the godel/turing/etc stuff 23:04:36 man, I got downvoted 23:04:37 wtf 23:04:39 people just need to STFU about it 23:04:54 yeah cool you just learned something new and interesting, NOT EVERYTHING IS A NAIL 23:05:00 j-invariant++ 23:05:26 Why don't we get people that just learned thermodynamics and join every fucking energy discussion with "YYEAH BUT YOU CANT CREATE INFINITE FREE ENERGY SO WHY BOTHER WITH WINDMILLS?" 23:05:39 `addquote 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. HAHA [...] this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something 23:06:06 j-invariant: because you don't have Thermo Engineering 23:06:08 j-invariant: or Thermo Monkeys 23:06:30 HackEgo: ping :( 23:06:52 264) 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. HAHA [...] this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something 23:07:36 elliott: the guy is fucking off the wall 23:07:43 elliott: like totally bonkers 23:07:48 I can't even keep up with what's going on 23:08:01 I love the guy responding to me with a condescending tone 23:08:09 copumpkin: which guy 23:08:17 tachi-kaze 23:08:21 http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7s0t 23:08:26 the reply to that 23:08:43 I don't get the aversion to correctness 23:08:46 copumpkin: i'm glad to see you've found the secret purpose of #esoteric, other than #minecraft 23:08:47 it's actually completely mad 23:08:50 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:08:51 which is #behind-people's-backs 23:08:56 mmm 23:09:00 copumpkin: you're godofpumpkins i guess? 23:09:06 That just means we can't exactly decide when something halts or not <---- nobody cares 23:09:10 oerjan: yep :) 23:10:02 copumpkin: oerjan is FAMOUS, he basically wrote half of the haskell 98 report* 23:10:06 *complete and utter hogwash 23:10:07 http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7ks6 23:10:11 lol 23:10:14 it upsets me that this comment has score 2 23:10:16 oerjan: point copumpkin to that typo you fixed or whatever!! 23:10:18 it should be -30 23:10:20 your fame will never end 23:10:32 j-invariant: keep saying that in here and I'm sure it will be :) 23:10:39 i did my bit!! HIVEMIND 23:10:41 doubt it 23:10:46 * copumpkin posts to twitter that it should be -30 23:10:48 now to go make stupid comments 23:10:55 copumpkin: WE CAN DO THIS 23:10:56 (I have a lot of dumb followers who do my bidding) 23:10:57 well only actually downvote it if you agree with me: That his comment is totally irrelevant 23:10:59 if we all work together! 23:11:04 elliott: there were several and i don't have them memorized 23:11:08 j-invariant: MORONS DON'T UNDERSTAND QUALIFIERS 23:11:33 dammit now my z key is acting up 23:11:35 I think tachi-kaze has probably smoked a load of dope 23:11:42 holy shit comex has a lot of twitter followers now 23:11:43 nothing he says has anny connection to reality 23:11:45 107,757... 23:11:47 i remember when he had like 23:11:47 3 23:11:49 elliott: indeed :) 23:11:55 comex superstar! 23:11:57 damn dude, getting all famous and hsit 23:11:58 whoa, copumpkin is in this channel 23:11:58 *shit 23:12:01 lol 23:12:07 comex: duh, I follow you around 23:12:09 what's comex? 23:12:13 j-invariant: this Agora player! 23:12:17 >:D 23:12:19 no, actually I saw people mention it in #haskell(-blah?) 23:12:20 that's what he's known for 23:12:21 playing Agora 23:12:23 nah 23:12:24 I'm not a player 23:12:28 well okay 23:12:30 EX-agora player 23:12:33 as of a few days ago :P 23:12:41 but my statement will be correct again soon enough 23:12:44 comex is a playa 23:12:45 comex: I'm gonna go around tleling people 23:12:48 I knew comex before he was famous 23:12:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:12:53 why so many followers? 23:12:59 j-invariant: superstar, and playa 23:13:01 but you never knew me before I was an Agora player 23:13:02 j-invariant: he did the new jailbreakme.com iPhone crack 23:13:07 *jailbreak 23:13:07 your statements contradict ;) 23:13:10 oh cool 23:13:15 also that's not very new anymore 23:13:18 well no 23:13:22 but it's what propelled you to INTERWEBS INFAMY 23:13:29 comex: i say new because, i remember using the old jailbreakme 23:13:32 on the day i bought my iphone 23:13:34 oh 23:13:35 good point 23:13:35 (I have a lot of dumb followers who do my bidding) <-- you do know that voting conspiracies are a bannable offense on reddit, right? 23:13:40 elliott: I helped make that one :P 23:13:46 oerjan: he can just say "omg this is so stupid" 23:13:51 but they're not in Agora 23:13:55 oerjan: well luckily I don't do such conspiracies 23:13:57 copumpkin: naw, Haskell can't do anything practical like that 23:14:03 stop lying 23:14:06 elliott: lol, that was pre-haskell :P 23:14:13 oh the old one 23:14:13 then I saw the light and lost interest in iphonez 23:14:35 yeah 23:14:36 :( 23:14:39 i have to go to bed 23:14:40 not as superstarish as comex, sadly 23:14:47 I did not get anything done 23:14:47 i had comex on vinyl 23:14:51 this sucks 23:14:54 let's play ircnomic 23:14:58 before he went platinum 23:15:01 j-invariant: don't sleep! 23:15:06 sleep is for the weak anyway 23:15:11 comex: heh, #ircnomic still redirects to ##nomic 23:15:12 BUT I CAN FIX THAT 23:15:21 grumble wooble grumble grumble cough 23:15:32 * copumpkin eats some orange chicken 23:15:48 stop ditsracting me 23:15:55 risdacting 23:16:00 *risdracting 23:16:31 gah, how can i remove the redirect... 23:16:46 I thought comex was famous for iPhone-related reasons before jailbreakme 23:16:47 -!- elliott has changed nick to ehird. 23:17:22 Sgeo_: he had a sex tape 23:17:36 lol 23:17:44 with emma watson 23:18:24 HOW DO YOU REMOVE A CHANNEL REDIRECT 23:18:27 the forces of wooble are acting against me 23:20:42 ehird: this fucking qfr is just an idiot trill 23:20:47 I'm bored o fhim 23:20:48 comex: #ircnomic now open for business 23:20:54 don't crowd around now 23:20:56 one at a time 23:21:43 j-invariant, I thought it was centuries before we learned the Trills' secrets 23:21:48 *secret 23:22:04 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 23:22:25 Sgeo: oh, shush 23:22:31 comex: do you have a copy of the last ircnomic ruleset :D 23:22:35 waht is a trill? 23:22:40 star trek. 23:22:45 no 23:23:06 comex: well... get one? 23:23:29 copumpkin: so have you started playing minecraft yet >:D 23:23:33 I just want to progrma something really simple what is the issuse 23:23:37 j-invariant: program what 23:23:48 ehird: just some really simple algorithms on polynomials 23:23:51 ehird: hell no 23:23:54 j-invariant: do it then :D 23:24:02 ehird: what language? 23:24:07 I tried scheme, haskell and Coq they all fail 23:24:07 j-invariant: agda 23:24:09 j-invariant: haskell? istr you did some stuff with it 23:24:13 and polynomialalalallal 23:24:14 s 23:24:19 copumpkin: agda is not a language for human consumption 23:24:20 or production 23:24:26 copumpkin: it's only a matter of time before you're yelling expletives at Notch every day, btw 23:24:27 I consume and produce it all the time 23:24:35 copumpkin: you're a pumpkin 23:24:37 i said human 23:24:38 ehird: yeah I tried to write the same program in all languages, none of them are any good 23:24:39 fair enough 23:24:48 copumpkin: and maybe you do, but you certainly don't produce nontrivial proofs in it >:) 23:24:50 I should make my own language 23:24:52 because that's impossible! 23:24:56 j-invariant: what was not good about it? 23:25:00 about haskell i mean 23:25:02 ehird: :( 23:25:09 copumpkin: COQQQQQ 23:25:17 ehird: consider modular arithmetic data type 23:25:28 ehird: you need to implement type level numbers to do it 23:25:32 I wrote that in two different ways in agda 23:25:35 or use unsafePerformIO 23:25:36 both were painful 23:25:38 j-invariant: use she :) 23:25:43 the best language! 23:25:50 ehird: yes I did use she 23:25:57 j-invariant: then you only have to implement nats ;P 23:25:57 What is she? 23:25:58 *:P 23:26:03 ehird: but I don't do modular arithmetic but polynomials 23:26:11 Sgeo: she's a thing. 23:26:17 Sgeo: she's a preprocessor for haskell 23:26:18 I mean the type level "thing" is not a natural but a polynomial 23:26:22 that I've started using for her other features, too 23:26:26 not just the autolifting of data 23:26:27 basically it's a clusterfuck 23:26:38 can't do this in a reasonable way in haskuell 23:26:38 j-invariant: just define a polynomial normally 23:26:43 and she will define the type-level version 23:26:44 She's an it! 23:26:45 what's wrong with that 23:26:48 -!- azaq23 has joined. 23:26:51 Sgeo: She's a SHE. 23:26:52 ehird: well, to a degree 23:26:54 ehird: it does not work that way 23:27:00 j-invariant: does for me :-D 23:27:00 well 23:27:02 on a good day ... 23:27:06 she only lifts data constructors 23:27:09 that's true 23:27:12 but who needs strong kinding 23:27:14 so if j-invariant wants to actually do something to the polynomial 23:27:19 then he needs to write it himself 23:27:23 ehird: idk I just can't get stuff working it sucksf 23:27:27 I need proofs too 23:27:31 why do you need a polynomial at the type level anyway? 23:27:36 I can't program in haskell it's like "woah what if everything is wrong?" 23:27:45 agda's getting a better compiler or two soon too 23:27:57 copumpkin: Z[x]/(p(x)) 23:28:11 okay 23:28:12 yeah 23:28:13 wait for epigram2 23:28:16 lol 23:28:24 NEED 23:28:25 MORE 23:28:26 the answer to everything 23:28:27 LANGUAGES 23:28:29 FEED ME 23:28:31 You know what 23:28:39 j-invariant: or just use cochon 23:28:45 Everything sucks: When epigram2 comes out I will find out something that sucks about it after a week 23:28:48 :D 23:28:50 j-invariant: please say "i'm going to write my own language" 23:29:03 yeah, with observational type theory 23:29:03 i'm going to write my own language 23:29:10 j-invariant: YAAAAAAAY 23:29:14 and easy reflection and so on 23:29:20 who will help me design it 23:29:21 don't tell Sgeo 23:29:25 copumpkin: yeah who needs all that 23:29:27 j-invariant: MEEEEEEE 23:29:33 j-invariant: don't forget substructural types (all sorts of them) 23:29:33 j-invariant: i suggest it have quotient types! 23:29:36 and effect types 23:29:41 ehird: this is essential 23:29:44 who needs effects 23:29:44 quotient types are easy with OTT 23:29:51 I don't know about parametricity 23:29:56 I wonder if it is important 23:29:57 copumpkin: but how do you avoid the extensional axiom of choice? 23:30:00 j-invariant: definitely separate forall and pi 23:30:01 :( 23:30:09 pff 23:30:16 I choose to not care about the AoC 23:30:26 copumpkin: YOU CAN'T WELL-ORDER THE REALS DAMMIT 23:30:34 23:30:38 :P 23:30:39 everything is well ordered 23:30:40 *o'connor's 23:30:46 j-invariant: nuh uh! 23:30:48 there's loads of blog posts telling you how to count the reals out there 23:30:49 "well ordered" is a set theoretic notion 23:30:51 one put pi in the middle 23:30:54 touche 23:30:55 and then laid them out in a grid 23:30:59 and then counted spirally! 23:31:00 mmm 23:31:05 lol @ pi in the middle 23:31:06 hm what would well ordered mean in type theory? 23:31:16 dunno 23:31:17 http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html 23:31:18 word of god 23:31:23 clearly you can't have quotient types 23:31:24 :( 23:31:34 wait ... 23:31:44 if you can prove that you can well-order the reals in type theory + quotient types 23:31:49 ... then what fucking program does that spit out?! 23:31:49 ValueError: substring not found :( 23:31:53 shut up, luatre. 23:34:20 can we implement quotients in a type theory inside agda? 23:34:34 following e.g. Kipling 23:34:49 I think Euphoria is supposed to be an "easy" language 23:34:52 * Sgeo facepalms 23:35:10 j-invariant: we can with setoid-like things 23:35:17 well, just setoids 23:35:18 no proper quotients 23:35:18 http://openeuphoria.org/wiki/view.wc?page=SampleCode 23:35:20 oh 23:35:22 * Sgeo assassinates someone 23:35:33 I dunno, check the OTT implementation in agda? 23:35:47 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:36:28 should I (1) sleep (2) write notes about this language that will probably never actually exist 23:36:44 You should do 1, but you will do 2 23:37:04 j-invariant: latter 23:37:23 j-invariant: i wanna help :D 23:37:56 j-invariant: you can follow conor's blog posts for the basic syntax and implementation 23:38:07 (of a core behind it) 23:38:07 j-invariant knows enough about Epigram i think :P 23:38:10 but I am not implementing epigram 23:38:14 oh man this python program is so ugly... 23:38:20 if I was writing it in cled it'd be easy to navigate 23:38:23 funny thing is, 23:38:24 it's cled 23:38:34 I mean, it's tricky to design a good AST that maintains invariants you want (especially the j- sort) 23:38:41 and conor had a nice design on his blog 23:39:06 copumpkin: do you mean e-pig? 23:39:10 yep 23:39:21 ehird, all self-hosting things start out that way, I think 23:40:07 Also, Clue should be written entirely in Clue. That makes no sense, but do it anyway 23:40:16 Sgeo: I agre 23:40:55 j-invariant: more chatting about your language! 23:41:02 ehird: I don't really know category theory 23:41:11 j-invariant: don't base it on categories then 23:41:20 ehird: but they are the solution to all problems? 23:41:21 WHAT AN INTRUIGING IDEA 23:41:27 j-invariant: or ARE they!!!!!!!! 23:41:30 yet 23:41:31 yes 23:41:45 j-invariant: try and solve 80% of problems then :P 23:42:00 self.fill_widget(self) 23:42:00 TypeError: fill_widget() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) 23:42:00 xD 23:42:30 i love how tk just ignores errors, it's so cute 23:43:38 -!- rom9com has joined. 23:44:06 what the fuck ... oh 23:44:08 -!- jesus_muppet has joined. 23:45:09 copumpkin: gimme a unicode character that looks like a hole, or a box, or a cross or something 23:45:32 mr. unicode 23:45:34 ∘ 23:45:36 (your new name) 23:45:43 -!- calamari has joined. 23:45:45 copumpkin: what is that :D 23:46:17 when did I become mr unicode? :( 23:46:51 I use compose key 23:47:14 ōºō°øô 23:47:21 wow it works ... kinda 23:47:31 in a not really working way 23:48:38 this is really stressful 23:51:16 j-invariant: what is 23:51:40 can't get anything important done :| 23:51:44 don't have the tools 23:51:55 don't have the tools to make the tools etc. 23:52:42 j-invariant: you have the latter surely 23:52:48 haskell is good for implementing languages :P 23:54:14 I don't "get" haskell 23:54:22 j-invariant: there's nothing to get 23:54:26 I don't know how those guys can do anything with it 23:54:35 http://qntm.org/tesla DARNIT 23:55:01 j-invariant: by testing code rather than proving it correct 23:55:08 Sgeo: what 23:55:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:58:25 I think I'll try learning OCaml again 23:58:35 Erm, reading about 23:59:19 j-invariant: so tell me about your lang :P 2011-01-11: 00:00:13 * Sgeo turns back to Slate 00:01:33 ehird: A universal property in category theory holds all extensional information about an objects behavior: the computational object is just a witness for the universal property 00:02:15 ehird: if we want to do a large scale program it seems necessary to base modules on this: Otherwise a proof might require a computation that spans several modules (and takes hours to compute) 00:02:38 j-invariant: i meant the language you thought you had enough knowledge to implement, but OK :P 00:02:41 ehird: but category theory is not entirely non-computational: So it is very difficult 00:02:53 when did I ever say I have any clue how to make it :P 00:03:46 j-invariant: well i meant presumably you have a "better-than-Haskell" in your head that's like Haskell except better :) 00:03:50 and i doubt that's based on category theory. 00:04:15 oh I don't know if I have any significant ideas to improve haskell 00:04:33 j-invariant: don't you have like 10 languages in your head at once :| 00:04:34 i do 00:04:40 i don't mean improve haskell 00:04:42 j-invariant: what i'm saying is 00:04:52 j-invariant: what language isn't based on category theory, and would be nice to implement this polynomial stuff in, in your head 00:09:11 ehird: the silly thing is, THAT is the language I was trying to implement 00:09:15 :D 00:09:15 call your language CCC+SK 00:09:22 j-invariant: with the polynomials? 00:09:26 j-invariant: hahah lmao that quadrescence post about haskell has got a followup 00:09:27 apparently, 00:09:28 ehird: anyway it's sort of an "algebra system" 00:09:32 since the monad laws aren't automatically enforced, 00:09:36 ehird: except (dependently) typed 00:09:39 and since Monad isn't a subclass of Functor, 00:09:44 Haskell is pseudo-mathematics 00:09:48 ehird: but it's not for writing proofs in, just mathematical algorithm 00:09:48 lol 00:09:49 loool 00:10:03 hmm he isn't here right now 00:10:06 i wonder if he's gone away forever 00:10:07 that would be nice 00:10:08 quadrescence is odd 00:10:17 copumpkin: we've had more than our fair share of him. 00:10:18 his last blog post was ridiculous 00:10:21 more than #haskell. 00:10:38 copumpkin: which one 00:10:45 the one about the cargo cult 00:10:46 Follow-Up to Infamous Post 00:10:48 ? 00:10:49 that's old 00:11:02 copumpkin: yeah, uh, i'm quoting from the follow up to that 00:11:03 lol 00:11:14 I figiured 00:11:16 -i 00:11:38 i started reading his uhh "book" 00:11:44 he seems to think that rewriting languages solve everything 00:11:48 *term rewriting 00:12:07 10.12.27:22:32:19 Quadrescence: can you make any constructive suggestions? 00:12:07 10.12.27:22:33:08 rename monad to something else, delete "morphism" from your vocabulary unless you have reason to need it 00:12:07 10.12.27:22:36:27 Quadrescence: that's not radical enough 00:12:08 10.12.27:22:37:56 ok, rename haskell to Fortran++ 00:12:46 lol 00:13:05 he kept bugging everyone in here to write for his blog :) 00:14:18 ehird: seen cryptol? 00:14:22 j-invariant: ages ago yes 00:14:27 it's ... kinda cool i guess? 00:14:29 ehird: a bit like that, I guess 00:14:37 "kinda cool"?? 00:14:39 :P 00:14:43 i didn't look into it much! 00:14:43 it's great 00:14:51 except non free... 00:14:56 j-invariant: if you're going to write like, a dependent CAS, then i wouldn't try and e.g. implement polynomials in haskell 00:15:00 the idea is good though: Use dependent types 00:15:05 j-invariant: I'd implement a sort-of-symbolic dependent language 00:15:07 and do the rest in that 00:15:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:15:25 dependent types are hard to implement nicely though 00:15:31 and are still hard to program in 00:15:56 ehird: why are you ehird 00:16:23 because i am 00:16:36 copumpkin: says the agda user 00:16:38 coq is soo easy :}}}} 00:16:45 lol 00:16:54 they're still hard 00:16:57 coq and agda are equally useless 00:17:03 well 00:17:08 computers are useless, let's get rid of them 00:17:11 for the specific thing I want to do 00:17:21 j-invariant: you really need your own lang for it i feel... 00:17:27 j-invariant: Axiom is kinda close to what you want in fact. 00:17:35 as in, a dependent CAS 00:17:43 Hmm. The free ATi drivers seem to be genuinely non-shitty these days. 00:19:05 pikhq: i need a unicode cross or something 00:19:06 as in X 00:19:13 or a hollow square or circle 00:19:16 FILL MY NEED 00:21:37 pikhq: . 00:21:39 j-invariant: have you seen Axiom? 00:22:05 Yup, definitely *insanely* better at video display, and I don't actually have a good OpenGL test case... 00:22:32 But as I clearly don't actually use OpenGL much, moot point. :P 00:23:03 -!- jesus_muppet has left (?). 00:23:40 ehird: no 00:23:46 j-invariant: you perhaps should 00:23:57 j-invariant: it's also a gigantic literate program :^) 00:24:42 j-invariant: basically Axiom is this crazy developed-since-1970 literate program that implements a strongly-typed, mathematical type hierarchy-based CAS 00:24:53 j-invariant: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Matrixinmatrix.jpg 00:24:55 j-invariant: note the Type: lines 00:25:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:25:10 j-invariant: fully symbolic, etc. 00:25:25 ehird: yeah really I should stop being such a hermit and just use existing software 00:25:40 j-invariant: oh i am not saying that axiom is the solution 00:25:44 j-invariant: i'm saying you should look at it :) 00:26:01 j-invariant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_(computer_algebra_system)#Documentation click a pdf and start reading :D 00:26:07 ehird: k, ignored 00:26:11 it's the literate program 00:26:14 coppro: oh grow up 00:26:26 why did coppro ignore? 00:26:36 because he's even more childish than I am 00:26:39 because this channel is better without ehird 00:26:40 -!- ehird has changed nick to eherd. 00:26:46 i'm a herd of Es 00:26:59 *this channel is almost silent without 00:27:07 and the bits that aren't silent, mostly incomprehensible one-sided conversations 00:27:32 j-invariant: I think there are probably very few systems developed since the early 70s 00:27:42 that are still in active (non-maintanence) development today 00:27:50 eherd: changing your nick is not sufficient 00:27:54 *maintenance 00:28:00 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:28:09 coppro: my ident hasn't changed 00:28:14 coppro: so if it's based on nickserv: HI. 00:28:28 -!- eherd has changed nick to ehurd. 00:28:30 Also, OMFG kernel mode setting. 00:28:31 The Axiom project focuses on the "30 Year Horizon". The primary philosophy is that Axiom needs to develop several fundamental features in order to be useful to the next generation of computational mathematicians. Knuth's literate programming technique is used throughout the source code. Axiom plans to use proof technology to prove the correctness of the algorithms (such as Coq and ACL2). 00:28:35 coppro: there's no possible way i'm still ignored now 00:28:42 lol literate programming 00:28:44 wow this is interetsing 00:28:47 I haven't not heard zzo38 today 00:28:56 It makes my framebuffer actually use the native resolution of the display! 00:28:57 :D 00:29:03 OTHER THINGS ZZO38 LIKES: BREATHING 00:29:46 ehurd: this is interesting actually, gonna check it out 00:29:57 j-invariant: "For example, Axiom’s integrator gives you the an- swer when an answer exists. If one does not, it provides a proof that there is no answer." 00:30:13 *answer 00:30:36 j-invariant: "A function can take a type as argument, and its return value can also be a type. For example, Fraction is a function, that takes an IntegralDomain as argument, and returns the field of fractions of its argument." 00:30:47 j-invariant: i think this is more like \Omega{}mega than Agda, though 00:30:54 not sure though 00:32:12 haha 00:32:15 omegamega is so stupid 00:32:53 ehurd: so apparently you have a u now 00:33:19 j-invariant: is it? 00:33:21 coppro: oh indeed 00:33:33 coppro: it's obvious that your ignore didn't fail, btw. 00:33:45 ehurd: it's just crazy, like reimplementing everything at multiple levels? 00:33:53 j-invariant: well i might be wrong 00:33:55 j-invariant: i just meant 00:34:01 j-invariant: i don't think that axiom lets you do actual dependency 00:34:04 j-invariant: i.e. pi types 00:34:08 j-invariant: sigma maybe 00:34:18 j-invariant: i don't know omegamega, so i wasn't trying to draw a strong comparison. 00:35:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:35:05 ehurd: it's probably dynamically checking types 00:35:10 j-invariant: no i do not think so 00:35:13 j-invariant: it's strongly-typed 00:35:24 j-invariant: which volume are you reading? 00:35:25 or are you not 00:36:30 j-invariant: ? 00:36:49 what's this "30 year horizon"? 00:37:08 it's neither sigma, nor pi, nor dynamically checking 00:37:16 -!- drakhan has quit (Quit: Wychodzi). 00:37:30 copumpkin: owhat are you talking about? :D 00:37:36 omega 00:38:57 I was talking about axiom 00:40:01 I am seeing universal properties and categories everywhre 00:40:29 categories are everywhere 00:40:36 so are universal properties! 00:40:43 coppro: I realized that divisibility forms a category 00:40:49 it's an order 00:40:59 any partial order can be made into a category 00:41:04 ^ 00:41:09 j-invariant: it's described at the top 00:41:28 j-invariant: so which volume are you reading 00:41:57 divisibility is more special than any old partial order 00:42:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:42:43 most partial orders are more special than any old partial order :P 00:42:48 copumpkin: what 00:42:51 j-invariant: helloooo 00:42:52 in fact, we can set up a partial order of partial orders 00:42:54 by specialness 00:43:08 copumpkin: oh you crafty 00:43:14 :D 00:43:29 j-invariant: how many more times should i ping you 00:45:02 j-invariant: 00:45:05 ??? 00:45:29 j-invariant: which volume are you reading 00:45:30 of Axiom 00:45:53 I'm not 00:47:40 j-invariant: you said about the 30 year thing 00:47:43 but that's mentioned in the book 00:47:59 j-invariant: http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf is the introduction book which contains all the interesting info 00:48:06 vs. all the implementation details and code in the rest more or less :P 00:48:16 j-invariant: contains the general overview of the system and cool stuff etc. 00:48:54 well ok there's more but 00:49:09 j-invariant: DID I MENTION: category theory plays a large part in axiom 00:49:11 IIRC 00:49:57 although i don't know that for _sure_ 00:52:25 yes you are 00:55:55 j-invariant: are you reading it? :p 00:56:21 j-invariant: i think it's actually surprisingly close to what you were talking about wanting, from reading this volume 0 00:57:00 j-invariant: heh it uses categories to mean something other than what category theory means by them 00:57:02 i think 00:59:31 i think j-invariant fell asleep 01:00:49 hii 01:01:04 j-invariant: are you kirby all of a sudden? 01:01:15 no 01:01:19 ok 01:02:39 ehurd: compare: 01:02:51 (10 http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c6ps2 01:02:54 (1) 01:03:09 j-invariant: what's 2 :P 01:03:09 (2) http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7ks6 01:03:24 exactly the same thing except one guy said "prime numbers" and the other guy said "halting problem" 01:03:28 lol 01:03:40 ZOMG ALAN TURING. MUST UPVOTE 01:03:49 fuckin pathetic :/ 01:03:53 not worth getting worked up over! 01:03:57 now read the axiom introduction, it's really interesting :P 01:04:08 i'm only on page 13 and i think it's cool 01:04:09 okay, il be back in a moment 01:04:21 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:09:15 copumpkin: you have strayed into a deadly trap 01:09:22 ? 01:09:51 copumpkin: being the only active person who doesn't have me ignored >:) 01:09:56 now watch as i force you to test my awful software 01:09:58 mwahahahahahahaha 01:10:08 lol 01:10:21 nah, I'm busy 01:10:26 busy testing, yes 01:10:31 my god, it's 381 lines 01:10:32 how did that happen 01:12:51 -!- j-invariant has joined. 01:17:11 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cw06e/the_mercury_language_take_prolog_speed_it_up/c0vpmgg 01:18:28 Sgeo: tell me how ehird bashes it ok 01:18:41 What I linked to was a joke 01:18:58 Although yeah, I'm looking at Mercury 01:18:59 Sgeo: why does it say "Yes"? 01:19:27 j-invariant: it's funny because prolog impls print yes 01:19:37 Sgeo: prince xml was written in mercury, btw 01:19:53 and is a very advanced, complex program, sold for lots of money, with a small binary size 01:20:00 o.O 01:20:03 converts XML/HTML + CSS into PDF, basically, with very high quality 01:20:11 http://princexml.com/ 01:20:16 coppro, ehurd is not bashing Mercury. 01:20:17 proof that the language can do shit, at least 01:20:17 ehurd: no they don't? 01:20:22 Sgeo: impossible 01:20:27 j-invariant: yes they do 01:20:30 This sort of reaction is what got me interested in Factor so long ago 01:20:34 j-invariant: well... 01:20:34 he didn't mention it first 01:20:36 j-invariant: ok they actually don't 01:20:36 so it can't be good 01:20:38 but they print No! 01:20:40 and that's what matters 01:20:43 ehurd: that's some stupid SWI prolog thing 01:20:49 oh wait no it's not 01:20:59 Sgeo: well i wouldn't want to write an actual program in Mercury myself. 01:21:10 logic programming doesn't gel with me. 01:21:27 but the fact that it has no cut or side-effects is nice :) 01:21:58 j-invariant: do you want to try out the initial cled prototype :D 01:22:14 yes 01:22:36 j-invariant: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p7989249361.txt 01:22:39 j-invariant: just run as: python cled.py 01:22:48 try not to defocus the window afterwards, it doesn't like that 01:23:06 j-invariant: most of the underlying stuff is written but not exposed as the ui... but it can manipulate integer argument lists! 01:23:15 The tutorial could use some work 01:23:33 j-invariant: quick rundown: lilac background means it's selected. j and k move around the current active object, selecting children of it, showed by highlighting with lilac. 01:23:50 j-invariant: e descends into the currently selected object. d ascends upwards from any objects. 01:24:04 j-invariant: if you descend into an integer, then you can rewrite the integer by typing a new one and hitting or d. 01:24:26 mutable inteegers... 01:24:27 j-invariant: to add a new element to a list (only in . -> things now (they're called examples)), press = to insert after the current element. + (shift-=) to insert before. 01:24:29 j-invariant: no 01:24:31 j-invariant: it's an editor 01:24:40 j-invariant: it's like seeing 42, pressing backspace twice, and typing a new on 01:24:40 e 01:24:44 it's an AST-based code editor 01:24:52 j-invariant: press x to delete an argument. 01:25:07 j-invariant: now, if you do =, it's "?", because it's waiting to decide what type you'll put in based on your input 01:25:09 this is called a box 01:25:16 if you d before entering a type, you'll see an ugly red ? in your program 01:25:21 these are call boxes, but they should be called holes. 01:25:30 they're basically just things that need objects but haven't filled in yet 01:25:36 nice it works! 01:25:39 if you try and delete the output of an example, or all the inputs, you just get a single box instead 01:25:44 that's pretty much it for now 01:25:48 note that if you ascend too far everything breaks 01:25:59 oh 01:26:06 and "r" replaces the current selected thing with a box 01:26:11 which will probably be useful somehow! 01:26:17 it's possible to descend too far?? 01:26:21 j-invariant: no 01:26:23 but you can ascend too far 01:26:37 if you try and go above the list of examples 01:27:03 j-invariant: oh and Ctrl+S prints the current program to stdout 01:27:10 note that if you have boxes, this'll be an invalid program 01:27:38 cool 01:28:10 oh and you should be able to enter [ into a hole instead of a digit or -, to get a list 01:28:12 but that doesn't work yet :) 01:28:31 j-invariant: incidentally, the programs are pretty-printed. 01:28:46 so for instance it outputs 01:28:47 depth of first ~ {. 0 -> 0 01:28:47 . 5 -> 0 } 01:28:48 depth of first ~ {:. [[1 2] [3 4]] -> 2 01:28:50 : [1 2] -> 1 01:28:52 :. [[[1 2 3] 4] 5] -> 3 01:28:54 : [[1 2 3] 4] -> 2} 01:28:56 depth of first ~ is list?; cons; car; cdr; succ; 0 01:28:58 with the right alignment everywhere 01:29:00 (that isn't generated by the code, but i know it does it properly :)) 01:29:06 (or wait i think i did feed it in at some point. anyway.) 01:30:24 j-invariant: i'm not going to be able to convince you to read the first volume of axiom, am i :D 01:30:59 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:33:06 ok i'll stop bugging you about it 01:34:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:35:16 -!- azaq23 has joined. 01:37:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 01:40:18 ehurd: I am going to read it 01:40:25 j-invariant: \o/ 01:40:26 | 01:40:26 |\ 01:40:46 j-invariant: I don't think it does do type-checking at runtime... that would be lame anyway 01:40:54 Also I like the idea of it more if it doesn't :P 01:41:14 j-invariant: lol, you declare a module system like you do types, and even structures (like ring) 01:41:17 it's all the same mechanism 01:41:43 "Because the argument of Matrix is required to be a Ring, Axiom will not build nonsensical types such as “matrices of input files”." 01:41:47 brb implementing matrices of input files 01:41:59 j-invariant: yep, just read, it typechecks at compile times 01:42:01 *time 01:43:18 *just read that it 01:44:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:45:10 ehurd: wow, both great 01:45:14 that's good 01:45:44 i'm only on page 21... wonder how much mindbending stuff is in the next 1198 pages 01:45:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:45:59 erm actually page 40 01:46:04 but 21 in the actual book 01:46:24 pretty huge book, considering this is only volume 0 01:46:32 i wonder if you can buy a complete set bound in leather that takes up a whole shelf 01:47:05 j-invariant: btw here's a link, mostly for my logreading benefit since i had to find it again before: axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf 01:47:08 *http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf 01:49:30 j-invariant: this seems to do a lot of stuff as polynomials, lol 01:49:39 i think you've accidentally reinvented this 01:50:02 j-invariant: mind you, i'd still like to see what you come up with 01:50:39 "The function factor can also be applied to complex numbers but the results aren’t quite so obvious as for factoring integer: 01:50:39 144 + 24*%i 01:50:39 144+24 i 01:50:41 Type: Complex Integer" 01:50:45 i smell a documentation bug 01:52:12 "Chapter XXX describes these modules in 01:52:12 more detail." 01:53:52 Sgeo: hur hur it's funny because ex 01:53:53 sex 01:53:59 No 01:54:03 what then 01:54:12 I'm just complaining about the incompleteness of the documentation 01:54:35 how is that incomplete 01:54:47 Sgeo: ? 01:55:02 Sgeo: it's a book, what's the issue 01:55:07 Those XXXs are all over the place 01:55:15 Sgeo: It's a number, isn't it. 01:55:16 30. 01:55:19 No 01:55:29 I assume you're talking about Axiom? 01:55:36 I'm talking about Mercury 01:55:38 Oh. 01:55:42 Then I don't care! Yay! 01:55:50 j-invariant: should i make my own language 01:55:58 what about it 01:57:15 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:57:18 j-invariant: semi-dependent-typing, in that it has kinds and metakinds etc. etc. etc., and kinds are automatically derived from normal data types (with the same name and constructors), /but/ nothing crosses the : 01:57:22 j-invariant: i.e., no pi types 01:57:29 because 01:57:32 that sounds easier to implement :D 01:57:40 bye 01:57:41 -!- ehurd has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:01:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:01:26 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:04:13 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:06:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:11:20 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:24:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:26:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:27:38 Formal proof of correctness is not only tedious, time-consuming, and outlandishly expensive, it's also not necessarily effective! People commit errors when attempting a formal proof. There is no fool-proof way of determining if a proof is correct or not. -- JeffGrigg 02:28:30 uh yes there is 02:28:36 clearly he doesn't know what a formal proof is 02:29:42 lol 02:30:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:30:21 oerjan! 02:30:34 morning orejan 02:30:37 j-invariant: wait what? 02:30:43 j-invariant: it says "adjunction" posted that 02:30:43 oerjan 02:30:50 but adjunction clearly doesn't think that 02:30:54 because I've seen other things he posted 02:32:12 * copumpkin is confused 02:33:24 ¡coppro, oklopol 02:35:25 maybe j-invariant is adjunction 02:38:35 * Sgeo needs MORE 02:38:38 MORE LANGUAGES 02:38:39 MORE 02:38:43 * Sgeo goes nuts 02:38:54 Sgeo: learn all languages at once: Oz 02:39:04 I find myself interested in the concept of dataflow programming 02:39:15 j-invariant, is there still any work being done on Oz? 02:39:25 Last ... thingy was 2008 02:40:44 " j-invariant: yeah there is basically no way you could do recursive functions (only flow control other than branching really) with a stupid search like that" <<< actually i have a good feeling about another way to do recursion stuff, although the idea is so simple i'll want to try it before saying it might work 02:41:00 but i'm usually right, like i was right about demolishing! 02:41:11 ...wait 02:41:27 oklopol: i am incapable or ferror 02:42:04 demolishing/ 02:44:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:46:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_%28category_theory%29 02:46:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:46:34 " 21:29 cdsmithus: EvanR-work: It's pretty easy to see. Just enumerate all the 0-length strings (finitely many), then all the 1-length, then the 2-length, and so on. Every finite string has some length, and will be reached eventually" <<< this doesn't work 02:48:25 um yes it does 02:48:34 as long as your alphabet is finite 02:48:35 PENIS 02:49:09 if your alphabet is countably infinite, though... 02:49:32 you can still enumerate it. 02:49:35 yes. 02:49:55 "Googles Go language uses a quicksort, though this is considered by some to be a bug. 02:49:56 " 02:49:57 lolwhat? 02:50:04 length + sum(ord(chr)) < n 02:50:22 Ah 02:50:22 that would be one way 02:51:13 "Somewhat typical of PHPs API, there are actually thirteen different built-in array sorting functions" 02:51:55 what is that about 02:52:04 oklopol: i am incapable or ferror <-- so, which one is it? 02:52:18 oerjan: it's both. 02:53:48 Sgeo: quicksort has bad worst-case behavior... 02:54:03 I said "Ah" after reading the compaints 02:55:01 yeah, "Ah" is such a heavily information-loaded word 03:01:15 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:03:02 " oklopol likes Python for, like, totally different reasons to everyone else." <<< the reason i like python is i used to like it, and used it so much it's soooooooooooo easy now. this is also why my programs are so retarded in syntax and how i do things locally, i actually don't think at all, i just write 03:03:41 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:04:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:06:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:06:29 ' Why don't we get people that just learned thermodynamics and join every fucking energy discussion with "YYEAH BUT YOU CANT CREATE INFINITE FREE ENERGY SO WHY BOTHER WITH WINDMILLS?"' xD 03:06:42 -!- quintopia has joined. 03:07:36 oklopol, you like Python for the same reason I do! 03:07:50 I am more practiced with Python than any other language 03:10:06 oerjan, Sgeo Java has some weird behavior. <= 7 elements it uses insertion sort and > 7 it uses quicksort 03:12:40 variable: well that's not so weird 03:12:56 it's well known that simpler sorts are faster for very short lists 03:13:07 also pure quicksort? 03:13:09 oerjan, actually it happens to be optimal for other reasons as well 03:13:09 no introsort? 03:13:11 coppro, erm no 03:13:17 I meant to say "modified quicksort" 03:13:33 and the number 7 isn't arbitrary either 03:14:06 well i'd assume without evidence that the <= 7 case is also used for sorting sublists in the quicksort? 03:14:25 oerjan, yes 03:14:54 * variable gets the source - hang on 03:16:06 oerjan, 03:16:29 Java's sort is based on http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=172710 03:17:46 " um yes it does" " as long as your alphabet is finite" <<< also the algorithm of doing nothing works. (as long as the alphabet is empty) 03:18:09 no bloody abstract 03:18:10 How long until we have non-Python languages running on CPython? 03:18:28 oklopol: BRILLIANT 03:18:40 Atomo runs on Haskell's whatever, a bunch of stuff runs on Erlang's VM, I'm pretty sure there's Ruby stuff.... 03:18:46 JVM and .NET are obvious 03:19:18 oerjan, Sgeo btw - I was talking about an array of ints 03:19:28 it uses something else (I think merge sort) for objects 03:19:35 variable: huh 03:19:47 oerjan: if you'd read context from 64 hours ago, you'd've known alphabet was just specified countable 03:20:01 oerjan, int[] array is sorted differently than Integer[] array 03:20:03 oklopol: O KAY 03:20:54 variable: i guess they are assuming comparing two elements is so much more expensive then that it affects things... 03:21:17 there should be a nonstandard set theory: \exists set S such that S^N is finite, but S is nonempty 03:21:28 (from nonstandard analysis, although that was probably clear) 03:21:38 oerjan, I don't remember exactly what they use to sort Objects. I __think__ its merge sort 03:23:15 variable: hm. i could see why they'd want to use a different cutoff but not why they'd switch to another sort for large arrays entirely 03:24:15 oerjan, I'm no Java expert - I just spent one semester too long learning Java :-\ 03:24:47 well me neither 03:24:59 i haven't even learned it properly 03:25:24 i know everything about java, but i still can't understand love 03:26:29 I love the java jive and it loves me 03:28:14 i hate the halting problem 03:28:40 it's like the least interesting piece of math ever, and everyone thinks they understand what it means on a deep philosophical level 03:29:47 it should be stripped of its popularity by force 03:30:26 oerjan so 03:30:33 ...it is the basis of most other undecidability theorems, isn't it 03:30:35 did you catch my inverse semigroup stuff 03:30:36 :D 03:30:40 NO 03:30:43 * oerjan runs away 03:30:45 oerjan: it's a very important theorem, yes 03:31:21 it shouldn't be uninvented or anything 03:31:28 there's tons of interesting stuff *on top of it* 03:32:48 it's the popularity that annoys me 03:33:03 oh, well right, it's not actually the *least* interesting piece of math ever, maybe :D 03:33:44 but it's not a particularly interesting theorem 03:34:44 and i always hate it when someone tries to add ugly technicaly philosophy to a beautiful and pure formal mathematical theorems 03:34:54 *technical 03:35:26 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 03:35:35 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split). 03:35:39 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 03:35:49 + more random adjectives before the terms why not 03:35:51 it's like listening to a philosophy prof talk about math 03:35:58 it's almost actually painful 03:36:40 oerjan: i proved that in an inverse semigroup (so *unique* y such that x = xyx, y = yxy), idempotents form a semilattice 03:37:42 coppro: i haven't actually heard, but my dad studied philosophy, and he could recite these completely meaningless statements he'd learned for class that were some sort of explanations for the achilles paradox etc 03:37:44 mhm 03:37:51 -!- Slereah has joined. 03:37:51 -!- jix has joined. 03:38:16 well 03:38:24 maybe they weren't meaningless originally, but my dad butchered them completely :D 03:38:54 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:39:02 -!- variable has joined. 03:40:11 but in any case, who the fuck needs to learn about the achilles paradox... if i started studying philosophy, and i realized i was listening to a *lecture* about that retarded thing, i'd probably take a good look in the mirror, and kill everyone. 03:40:42 oerjan: THAT'S NOT ALL THOUGH 03:40:46 ...about inverse semigroups 03:40:48 um if you don't know any calculus and stuff then it probably _is_ somewhat mysterious 03:42:24 yes, possibly; now consider an arbitrary congruence on an inverse semigroup 03:42:34 (in the usual semigroup sense) 03:42:49 (although it does turn out that the quotient is an inverse semigroup) 03:42:59 * Sgeo surrenders and goes to install Cygwin 03:43:33 (that's not actually trivial i think, you need lallement's lemma, which says for all idempotents in the image, there is an idempotent in the preimage) 03:43:46 let's call this congruence p 03:44:37 we define x p_{min} y <=> \exists e \in E_S: xe = ye, x^-1 x p e p y^-1 y 03:45:04 that's an equivalence relation, since idempotents commute 03:45:19 wait... 03:45:42 let that be true for xe = ye, yf = zf 03:45:55 then i was thinking xef = yef = yfe = zfe = zef 03:46:05 but is the second thing true 03:46:23 oh well of course it is 03:46:44 what's E_S 03:46:49 because we know y^-1 y p f, and therefore e p f, and therefore also x^-1 x p f 03:46:51 oh sorry 03:46:52 idempotents 03:46:56 forgot to define 03:47:24 so yeah that's an eq relation, but here's the fun thing: that's actually the minimal congruence with the same trace 03:47:45 there's some = missing up there 03:47:54 where? 03:48:04 x^-1 x p e p y^-1 y 03:48:07 p is a relation 03:48:14 i mean 03:48:15 congruence 03:48:24 oh 03:48:37 * oerjan somehow started reading it as an idempotent 03:48:38 it was rho in the lecture notes, and i'm copy pasting from my head 03:48:51 the definition anyway 03:49:06 Hmm... Does ShowIP have some subtle bias: IPv4 addresses get shown as red and IPv6 addresses as green... :-) 03:49:06 so for instance, consider the trivial congruence S x S 03:49:13 let that be p 03:49:33 then, p_{min} is actually the minimal congruence q such that S/q is a group 03:49:49 because a quotient is a group if and only if idempotents are identified 03:50:18 because an inverse semigroup is a group iff it has exactly one idempotent 03:51:14 to prove that \exists e \in E_S: xe = ye, x^-1 x p e p y^-1 y is a congruence, you prove that it's a left congruence and that it's a right congruence separately, and that's actually kinda technical 03:51:23 because you have to guess the idempotent 03:52:11 but so let x p_{min} y, and e be the proof; consider xz vs. yz and the idempotent z'ez where ' is inverse 03:53:04 then xzz'ez = xezz'z = xez = yez = yezz'z = yzz'ez 03:53:12 aaaaaaand umm 03:53:15 oklopol: i don't think i'm capable of concentrating enough to follow this stuff 03:53:23 alright :P 03:53:27 did you get the actual theorem tho? 03:53:42 i think that's really nice even if i skip the proof 03:54:12 that for each congruence p, there's minimal p_{min} with the same trace, with that definition i gave 03:54:16 fuck 03:54:21 trace = what idempotents are identified 03:54:33 i'm not very organized :\ 03:54:48 that's hard too because i don't have an intuition for how "inverses" are supposed to behave 03:55:35 hm wait is x^-1 x = x x^-1 always? 03:55:46 like in groups, except that there are multiple 1-elements. 03:55:51 is my intuition 03:55:54 ok 03:56:08 x^-1 x = x x^-1 <<< no, but both are idempotent 03:56:45 idempotents commute, so often you just care about the fact you have *some* idempotent somewhere 03:57:01 should give examples maybe, have none... 03:58:59 it took me quite a while to get a grip on how inverse semigroups work 03:59:34 so i don't exactly blame you if you have no ability to follow the stuff, mainly i wanted to advertise properties of inv semigroups... :D 04:00:09 like that p_{min} thing, which is unique to inv semigroups in the semigroup monoid group etc family 04:00:16 (afaik!) 04:00:36 Fun use for ShowIP. Visit all sorts of IPv6-related sites and see which ones support IPv6. 04:00:40 (erm i mean of course it's true for groups......) 04:00:45 (but yeah) 04:01:28 alright my alarm clock is tickling. 04:02:47 Ilari: ooh, i guess we're just a week or two from exhaustion now? 04:03:11 or has it already happened 04:03:23 (that APNIC allocation thing) 04:03:34 algebra is so damn sexy really, if i was any good at it, i might even consider doing my phd out of that stuff 04:04:08 oklopol: tickling alarm clock? 04:04:38 well i mean i'm awesome at it but i don't really have an intuition on what constitutes as interesting new research 04:04:49 Not yet... Projections are turn of the month... But APNIC can justify allocation at any moment. 04:05:22 of course, i suppose you should always try to follow the road of *actually solving problems* 04:05:35 * oerjan imagines bosses at APNIC headquarters sitting rubbing their hands and cackling maniacally 04:05:43 oerjan: tickling sounds like it could mean some sort of beeping imo 04:05:55 and i already once used that word wrong in your presense 04:06:04 presence 04:06:11 oklopol: well there are already vibrating cell phones... 04:06:28 :D 04:06:37 but a tickling alarm clock would sort of have to be _in_ your bed... 04:06:51 my bed is too full of stuff to fit an alarm clock 04:06:54 well or it could be a wrist watch i guess 04:07:04 oklopol: do you have room to sleep :D 04:07:28 well, almost! 04:07:37 i should consider cleaning up this place at some poitn 04:07:39 *point 04:07:45 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa 04:07:49 don't remind me 04:08:17 it's been about a week and i haven't moved any of the stuff, and since i moved from a twice bigger apartment, there's suddenly huge amounts of stuff :D 04:08:33 oh right 04:10:16 these student apartments are so crappy i'm actually considering applying for a better one, mainly due to the facts i'm never going to be able to eat food if i have to prepare it in the presence of other people, everyone hears me watch porn at night and the fact the refrigerator wakes me up at 4 am ever morning 04:10:50 the last one is actually not annoying at all, i just wanted to mention it :D 04:11:05 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:11:56 but a place full of students is like the worst place to have thin walls, at 4 am on a wednesday, it's not rare to feel someone suddently yell "WHAT THE FUCK MAN?!?" 04:12:04 argh 04:16:37 It appears most dedicated IPv6 sites have IPv6 addresses... But some don't. 04:19:46 Last entry on IANA allocations for IPv6: 2006-10-03... That's over 4 years ago... 04:27:37 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:38:17 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:44:55 Whee... Mac OS X doesn't support DHCPv6 (according to these slides). 04:45:53 Haha... Blank slide titled "Response from Users". 04:51:08 -!- quintopia has joined. 05:17:06 -!- azaq23 has joined. 05:22:55 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 05:27:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGIii_eTOk 05:28:01 :'/ 05:30:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:31:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:31:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:37:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3bkmD-70e4&feature=related&fmt=18 05:38:28 All C#-like languages bore me 05:39:41 * Sgeo says that as he listens to a song he STRONGLY associates with Vala 05:40:08 * oerjan wonders why Sgeo adds the # 05:40:35 Because most of these highly marketed languages are closer to C# than C? 05:40:45 Although yeah, C-like bores me too 05:40:58 Not "highly" I guess. Hmm 05:41:33 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:41:47 well, it might be interesting experimenting with words, rhymes & rhytm.. but language becomes indefferent if u really want to say something 05:42:41 * oerjan was not aware that C# had spawned its own subfamily 05:43:59 Most dedicated IPv6 sites support IPv6... But seems that many don't. :-) 05:44:27 Ugh. We really need to get on the ball and start supporting IPv7. 06:02:23 Shortest IPv6 address I have seen on public webserver: 11 characters. Longest: 39 (which is the longest possible). 06:04:09 I believe the shortest possible valid IPv6 unicast address would be 9 characters... 06:05:09 Ah, actually, nope... 7. 06:05:55 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:07:37 -!- cal153 has joined. 06:07:56 2003::1 is at least an allocated address. 06:14:15 i'll locate _your_ address 06:16:06 What happens when we run out of MAC addresses? 06:18:36 Only 2^6 organizations can make network cards? 06:19:04 64 06:19:11 64 manufacturers 06:19:16 Past that, we run out 06:23:11 2^6? 06:23:13 where'd you learn to math 06:23:17 6 HEX digits 06:23:49 mac addresses are 12 hex digits; first half is manufacturer, second is device 06:24:52 > 16^6 06:24:53 16777216 06:25:43 onoez. each manufacturer can only make 16m nics! 06:25:55 or, they can get another id 06:25:58 exactly 06:26:00 maybe they give them out in ranges 06:26:02 * myndzi shrugs 06:26:06 which is why it's stupid to break it up that way 06:26:15 gotta break it up somehow 06:26:17 16^12 06:26:21 > 16^12 06:26:22 281474976710656 06:26:29 better to hand out multiple ids to a manufacturer than give too many device ids to one and nobody can use them 06:28:18 why not just hand out ranges of MACs on a need-some-more basis and just have a public database if you really need the manufacturer? 06:28:23 it works for IPs... 06:28:36 i dunno, i just sorta guessed it was something like that 06:28:55 http://www.coffer.com/mac_find/ 06:28:58 huh how about that 06:29:07 first google result for "mac address manufacturer database" ;P 06:29:08 heh 06:29:31 http://standards.ieee.org/cgi-bin/ouisearch 06:29:36 also that 06:29:48 it does look like an as needed basis 06:29:53 intel has a bunch but they aren't consecutive 06:32:51 Oops 06:32:59 Wait 06:33:03 3com cards used to be 00:01:02, but now they have a billion (for billion = 47) vendor IDs. 06:33:17 Wikipedia says 8 bits for the manufacturer 06:33:41 There are some flags in the upper bits. 06:33:46 At least two. 06:33:54 Oh wow, I misread the image 06:34:59 Maybes I needs sleep 06:35:00 s 06:38:24 i just don't understand why they need to assign them in 16m chunks 06:38:35 not that i care all that much 06:39:26 Assigning in smaller units would mean more processing of "gimme more" forms. 06:39:46 ha 06:39:53 I guess the assumption is that if you're manufacturing chips, you're going to do a lot of them. 06:41:10 i wonder how many vendors go out of business or stop manufacturing right in the middle of a block. or right at the beginning of one even 06:44:07 They've only allocated 14503 OUIs out of the 4194304 possible, so we don't seem to be running out just ye. 06:44:17 s/ye\./yet./ 06:45:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:45:33 What is Rexx, and why is it so low on popularity charts 06:45:37 Often lower than COBOL 07:01:28 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:01:34 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:07:25 There are quite many Rexx-using Amigists, due to ARexx; but maybe that does not count. 07:08:01 It's not-so-uncommon as an embedded scripting language sort of thing. 07:11:00 I guess you could even call ARexx the Amiga AppleScript, except that sounds pretty silly. 07:12:51 Also I'd like to mention that I'm not an Amiga user, but some of my best friends are (er... were), and there is nothing "wrong" or "shameful" about being one, despite what some people say. 07:21:41 morning 07:22:03 or should I say night. 07:22:44 Woke up due to electric saw. Which was used due to the people here to repair the leaking water from the roof. Oh well. 07:23:02 It is already morning-time. 07:23:38 fizzie, it isn't morning until 09:00 IMO 07:23:52 fizzie, and even then only if it has to be. 07:24:16 fizzie, I was woken up by this sound at 07:33 07:24:22 I'd classify anything before 04:00 as night, after 06:00 as morning, and the part in the middle is a bit of a grey area. 07:24:29 I was woken up by an alarm clock at 07:10. 07:24:38 Well, briefly, anyway. 07:24:51 It didn't quite "take", and then I actually got up at 08:10 or so. 07:24:54 fizzie, I prefer morning to start at 10:00 and end at 11:30 07:25:14 11:30-12:00 is "förmiddag" (can't remember English word for that atm) 07:25:30 (wait, does English have afternoon but not prenoon?) 07:26:39 They sort-of have a "forenoon", but I think that's a bit rare. 07:27:19 Also WordNet conflates that with "morning". 07:27:26 1. morning, morn, morning time, forenoon -- (the time period between dawn and noon; "I spent the morning running errands") 07:27:41 OED lists it separately, but still as "The portion of the day before noon". 07:28:33 I don't think they quite separate morgon/förmiddag like we do. (That's fi: aamu/aamupäivä.) 07:30:40 Even going by the dawn-based definition of "morning", it already is that here: sunrise today is at 09:15, and it's about 09:30 now. 07:32:57 you pesky southerners and your early mornings 07:45:32 Intriguing: Trondheim (suggested by grep) is at 63.43N (10.395E) while Lieksa (the place I'm sort-of from except not quite) is at 63.32N (30.025E); that's only a 12 kilometre difference in the North-South direction. 07:48:01 heh i guess it's just the timezone difference then 07:48:37 The "from" was also in sort of an "originally from" sense; currently I'm in Helsinki, which is quite a lot southener. 07:49:01 Or more accurately Espoo, I guess. 07:49:07 oh 07:50:41 -!- drakhan has joined. 07:51:00 60.1868N 24.8218E is the location of this university building; that's 361 km southwards. (And then take a right turn and go east for a bit.) 07:51:13 (That's the 270-degree right turn.) 07:51:35 ...RIGHT 07:51:47 -!- drakhan has quit (Client Quit). 07:52:36 (I can't seem to tell my left hand from my right.) 07:52:57 WELL GET A TATOO THEN 07:53:02 *TATTOO 07:53:12 A knuckle tattoo, with the left hand saying LEFT and the other one RGHT. 07:53:23 :D 07:53:49 i call rule 34 on that, or something 07:54:22 no google, i _am_ trying to search for rght 07:54:24 oerjan: http://www.knuckletattoos.com/gunCache/t_LEFTRGHT.jpg -- it has the benefit of being also wrongly oriented! 07:54:52 ooh 07:55:09 well that's obviously photoshopped 07:55:23 Well, yes, it's a generator that makes those images. I just entered LEFTRGHT in it. 07:55:47 ah 07:56:47 sadly google seems to fail me 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:16:17 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 08:30:36 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:33:46 -!- Vorpal has joined. 08:33:50 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 08:33:51 -!- Vorpal has joined. 08:36:09 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:48:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:49:22 -!- SimonRC has joined. 08:58:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: ilua). 09:18:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:50:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:19:50 -!- j-invariant has joined. 10:48:37 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:08:51 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 11:14:26 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:21:02 -!- drakhan has joined. 11:29:11 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:01:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:02:38 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:06:29 -!- jcp has joined. 12:07:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 12:12:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:13:24 -!- cheater00 has joined. 12:15:12 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:25:10 wow, first time ever that a spam message went through all the other filters server-side and was caught by my email client 12:51:56 you should cherish this moment 12:52:03 it's obvious it was DESTINED to be 12:52:12 maybe you should read it and memorize it 13:17:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:19:02 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:19:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:21:58 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:54:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:55:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 13:56:47 Is Clean worth learning? 13:57:00 I think it's just haskell without monads? 13:59:26 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:00:47 * Sgeo_ isn't particularly interested in Clean being faster 14:00:57 There are some things that I can imagine being interested in 14:01:08 Other than the language itself 14:01:13 huh? 14:02:35 Say, things like a more.. convenient environment to work with, etc 14:02:58 Better module system or whatnot also, although I guess that's a language thing 14:04:23 * Sgeo_ gets bored and wanders off 14:09:44 "I think that there is a market for books with fewer pages; there 14:09:44 are many people out there that need to learn computer science, but do 14:09:44 not appreciate reading" 14:09:47 Fuck you 14:10:36 ...suddenly I think this Preface is meant in jest 14:14:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:15:30 Sgeo_: LOL 14:15:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:19:19 Grr 14:19:33 Book says to use the Everything environment. There is no Everything environment. 14:20:58 Meh 14:22:51 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:34:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:35:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:37:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:37:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:59:39 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 15:00:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:00:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:03:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:03:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 15:03:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:06:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:09:32 I think it's just haskell without monads? 15:09:53 iirc clean is complete capable of monads, it's just that it doesn't need them for IO 15:09:57 *completely 15:10:35 using uniqueness typing instead to thread the "world" through computations. 15:11:33 Is it interesting enough to play with? 15:11:38 And fall in love with? >.> 15:11:46 this allows many computations to be performed with in-place updating, but yet be conceptually pure 15:12:14 I think I like that thought 15:12:22 But I want more 15:12:26 Better module system etc 15:12:50 * oerjan doesn't recall what module system clean has 15:15:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:16:12 "It is also available with limited input/output capabilities and without the "Dynamics" feature for Apple Macintosh, Solaris and Linux." 15:16:13 Grah 15:16:15 That sucks 15:18:15 I like things that have a theme naming thing going on. Like the "awesome" window manager, which has a standard scripting library called "awful", a theming thing called "beautiful", widget thingies called "wicked", "obvious" and "vicious", a notification thingie called "naughty", and so on. 15:18:29 fizzie, so do you love Newspeak? 15:18:33 (To clarify: I don't like the WM that much, just the naming.) 15:18:49 Brazil, Hopscotch, MiniTest, etc 15:19:16 [Not actually sure if Hopscotch fits thematically] 15:20:02 Why didn't shutup bother me? 15:20:04 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 15:20:07 Newspeak 15:20:10 There we go 15:20:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:21:13 I can't figure out any examples of actual things that I'd like that'd have a clear naming theme right now, it's just the idea I like. 15:21:48 Well, Chicken Scheme extensions are called "eggs", and I think it has some other related terms in use. 15:22:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:24:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:26:41 Right, the object system (one of them) was called COOPS. 15:29:31 One of them? 15:29:35 There's several? 15:37:55 COOPS is one of those eggs 15:40:35 There are approximately 7 different object systems in the egg repository. 15:41:29 http://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html#oop 15:42:15 Are they all incompatible? 15:42:19 * Sgeo guesses so 15:42:22 That sucks 15:42:26 what? 15:44:26 They're made by different people for different purposes, I don't see why (or even how, except kludgily) they should be compatible. 15:44:48 "Procedures can have no more than 4096 arguments." --Mozart/Oz limitation 15:44:51 * Sgeo is not worried 15:47:36 heh 15:47:43 "Procedures can have no more than 4096 arguments." --Mozart/Oz limitation 15:47:50 "Procedures can have no more than 1 arguments." --Haskell limitation 15:49:07 lol 15:49:20 * j-invariant plays some minecraft 15:49:49 "Look, this isn't an argument." --Monty Python 15:50:19 I love that one 15:55:05 * Sgeo mildly deja vus 15:58:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:58:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 15:58:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:06:04 HAPPY 31 DAY 16:06:18 WAT 16:06:27 wat wat 16:06:33 it's 11111 16:06:42 O DAT 16:06:48 YA DAT 16:08:37 I hate it when people do that. 16:09:01 wat wat in the butt 16:13:45 Act like interpreting the date in binary means something. 16:14:35 Phantom_Hoover, its just for fun - get over it 16:14:41 its like pi day 16:15:20 "It's just for fun" can't be used as an all-purpose justification. 16:15:24 It's still stupid. 16:16:18 justified with empty words, the party gets better and better 16:17:08 Now, 11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second will be the time for partying. 16:17:18 * hagb4rd went away alone, with nothing left but faith 16:17:53 Regrettably, it's 11 seconds after the Remembrance Day two-minute silence starts, so partying may be frowned upon. 16:32:33 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:32:37 -!- Behold has joined. 16:32:40 Phantom_Hoover, yeah the only reason to party is when you get a power of two in unix time ;) 16:33:00 RealPlayer still exists? 16:36:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:46:08 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 16:54:45 -!- elliott has joined. 16:54:49 hi ais523 17:03:23 -!- cal153 has joined. 17:06:36 18:30:43 j-invariant: it says "adjunction" posted that 17:06:40 copumpkin: I think j-invariant is adjunction 17:08:16 variable: excuse me, I believe your information to be inaccurate 17:08:19 variable: Java uses timsort 17:08:31 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:08:36 hey 17:08:37 It operates by finding runs in the data. Descending runs are reversed. Then, the size of the run is checked against the minimum run size for that particular array size. The minimum run size depends on the size of the array. For an array of fewer than 64 elements, the minimum run size is the entire array, making timsort essentially a fancy insertion sort in that case. For larger arrays, a number between 32 and 64 is chosen so that the 17:08:37 size of the array divided by the minimum run size is equal to, or slightly smaller than, a power of two. The final algorithm for it simply takes the most significant six bits of the size of the array, adds one if any of the remaining bits are set, and uses that as the minimum run size. If the run is too small, insertion sort is used to increase the run until it's the minimum size. The runs are then merged together via merge sort to pr 17:08:37 oduce the final sorted array.[3] 17:08:41 variable: not quickxort-based 17:08:43 *quicksort 17:08:51 variable: well ok this is only used since Java 7 17:08:53 but still 17:09:16 19:18:10 How long until we have non-Python languages running on CPython? 17:09:20 Sgeo: um a few things do that 17:09:22 elliott: that's what I think too (I think I wrote it after that) 17:09:23 Sgeo: for instance Clue is going to 17:09:27 but still odd that he posted that 17:09:30 copumpkin: by "I think", I mean 99% sure 17:09:38 copumpkin: also, I think he was quoting it as mockery ... 17:09:45 oh okay 17:09:48 it wasn't very obviously a quote 17:09:58 except that given his other posting history, it was pretty obviously not what he thought 17:10:15 elliott, huh. Are there any languages that don't have other languages running on their... system? 17:10:33 Malbolge. 17:11:06 copumpkin: I think j-invariant was trying to see how many points it'd get :) 17:11:12 who knows 17:11:17 anyway, /me continues logreading 17:11:22 that's one thing you zany #haskellers can't do! 17:11:26 we have nice, digestible 100k logs 17:11:48 19:19:18 oerjan, Sgeo btw - I was talking about an array of ints 17:11:50 lol 17:11:52 sorting an array of ints 17:11:57 i can do that in O(n) 17:13:41 19:21:17 there should be a nonstandard set theory: \exists set S such that S^N is finite, but S is nonempty 17:13:41 19:21:28 (from nonstandard analysis, although that was probably clear) 17:13:48 oklopol: omg that would be amazing... invent that 17:19:05 21:38:28 All C#-like languages bore me 17:19:05 21:39:41 * Sgeo says that as he listens to a song he STRONGLY associates with Vala 17:19:05 how the fuck do you associate a song with Vala 17:20:02 " Phantom_Hoover, yeah the only reason to party is when you get a power of two in unix time ;)" <<< ah, all ones! 17:20:13 along the lines of "11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second" 17:20:38 ars 17:20:51 oklopol, oh, all ones too. Which is just power of two - 1 17:21:04 elliott, by being extremely obsessed with a song and having it on loop at the same time as reading about the language 17:21:20 Sgeo: nutcase :D 17:22:45 sane cut 17:23:42 Vorpal: a power of two has more 1's than power of two - 1 17:24:17 um, no 17:24:24 xD 17:24:24 sea cont 17:24:26 *sea cunt 17:24:28 but the ones are WORTH more! 17:24:37 oklopol: so did you hear, cled is working 17:24:39 oerjan: it has infinitely many doesn't it? 17:24:39 sorta 17:24:52 what 17:24:58 1111.111111111... 17:25:03 :D 17:25:05 argh 17:25:06 oklopol: btw re first-class functions 17:25:12 that's why i explained: 'along the lines of "11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second"' 17:25:15 oklopol: you should NOT add lambda syntax 17:25:25 but it doesn't count unless you convert it to graycode first 17:25:25 oklopol: in e.g. map, the lambda parameter must be an existing clue function :) 17:25:26 elliott: oh i was not gonna, don't worry 17:25:38 only lambada syntax 17:25:53 elliott: that was the original plan, however, how about single-example lambdas? 17:25:54 like 17:26:17 oklopol: here's how i'd do it 17:26:17 map ~ {. [] -> [] } map ~ {:. [1 2 3] -> [2 3 4] : [2 3] -> [3 4] } map ~ []; car; cdr 17:26:23 obviously can be any clue function you want 17:26:26 or like xxx ~ function 1; function 2; helper object; { . 1 -> 2. 3 -> 6 }; 17:26:39 oklopol: hmm i don't see why you'd need that? 17:26:45 clue is good at inferring functions, after all 17:27:36 just a random idea, what you said is pretty much exactly what i was thinking 17:27:48 What's with more of the < >? 17:27:49 elliott, I timsort is an interesting sort - but I don't believe Java uses it - at least not in the current implementation 17:27:55 Sgeo: because names can have spaces 17:28:09 Timsort is a hybrid sorting algorithm derived from merge sort and insertion sort, designed to perform well on many kinds of real-world data. It was invented by Tim Peters in 2002 for use in the Python programming language, and has been Python's standard sorting algorithm since version 2.3. It is now also used to sort arrays in Java SE 7,[1] and on the Android platform.[2] 17:28:11 variable: ^ 17:28:15 as of Java 7 17:28:17 so you probably want a separator that's not whitespace 17:28:29 but because whitespace is the separator, the only non-ugly way is to enclose the function name 17:28:32 oklopol: <> is nice because it used to have another meaning, so it breaks backwards compat! 17:28:38 oklopol: {} and [] are kinda taken, and () is ugly 17:28:40 which is why I picked <>s 17:28:44 What was the other meaning? 17:28:57 ugh 17:28:58 don't ask 17:28:58 :D 17:29:05 Too late 17:29:13 "just this thing having to do with the hardest thing to explain about clue" 17:29:20 not very hard really 17:29:25 i just can't manage to do it succinctly 17:29:37 -!- Behold has joined. 17:29:56 all functions are switch statement + expression with possibly recursion; <> was used to give a function used in the switch statement 17:30:05 now, that's inferred completely, as well 17:30:05 yeah and you always used 17:30:08 bcuz it was made of retard 17:30:11 (technical term) 17:30:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:32:01 elliott 17:32:24 j-invariant 17:32:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_%28computer_algebra_system%29 17:32:41 verily 17:33:10 yes? :P 17:33:11 lol ~ {. {. <{. 6 -> 7} ~ succ> 3 -> 5 } 4 -> 8 } 17:33:24 wait 17:33:25 oklopol: xD i... how should i say this... no :P 17:33:30 and you missed a <> 17:33:32 and a hint list 17:33:35 hmm, i suppose you need explicit apply 17:33:42 oklopol: but um yeah why compromise purity like that ... 17:33:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_%28computer_algebra_system%29 ← what about it? 17:33:44 because not having it would be retarded 17:33:47 oklopol: it's not like adding another function is much work 17:33:52 Phantom_Hoover: i was talking about it w/ j-invariant yesterday 17:33:56 oklopol: also, "explicit apply"? 17:34:00 you mean like, apply being a function? 17:34:03 yes 17:34:06 you need that in the bag 17:34:21 oklopol: why not cons(#0(car(#1)) @(cdr(#1))) 17:34:31 sort of thing 17:34:32 elliott, did the conversation consist of " It sucks. I agree."? 17:34:33 without apply 17:34:38 Phantom_Hoover: no, i think it's cool 17:34:46 and i think it might be what j-invariant was inventing mostly 17:34:48 elliott: because objects shouldn't have operations attached to them 17:34:51 functions are no exception 17:34:51 -!- doraemon has joined. 17:35:00 i mean 17:35:03 oklopol: surely, then, you should have to include apply in every list 17:35:12 to call all the other functions in the bag 17:35:13 -!- doraemon has changed nick to Guest32802. 17:35:25 (done by using apply in an infinite regress, naturally) 17:35:35 elliott: that is true, but see in the grand scheme of things, apply would be good, since in clue 2.0, "function tools" would be included by default 17:35:44 just like list tools would be if you were using alist 17:35:46 *a list 17:35:46 oklopol: fair enough then. 17:35:58 oklopol: i hope clue 2 doesn't break cled too horribly. 17:36:06 Hi everyone, I have a question regarding a bf converter. I'd like to write a converter that converts a given string to bf, with one small catch: I 17:36:16 I would like it to optimize the output as much as possible 17:36:23 elliott: and while apply would be in all your millions of higher-order functions, it's still possible you sometimes don't want to be able to apply 17:36:25 i.e. the shortest string of bf that it can produce 17:36:30 -!- Guest32802 has changed nick to doraemon___. 17:36:41 you might say just want to compose! wait... 17:36:45 doraemon___: It is not generally possible to prove that a string is the shortest possible. 17:36:53 doraemon___: that is provably impossible to do 17:36:56 with a general algorithm 17:36:57 Gregor: well yeah, but I mean 17:36:57 SORRY :) 17:37:08 I'd like to produce a short, optimized string 17:37:14 sure but you can't do the _shortest_ 17:37:16 Not necessarily the shortest possible :) 17:37:22 but that's what you said :P 17:37:23 Yes, I know... 17:37:24 elliott: could've been an answer to me as well D: 17:37:27 !bf_txtgen Hello, doraemon___! 17:37:28 " doraemon___: that is provably impossible to do" 17:37:35 163 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>---.>----.>+++..+++.>-.------------.<<-.>.+++.-----------------.<+.++++++++.++.-.>--...>+.-----------------------. [164] 17:37:52 That's decent 17:37:53 txtgen is not a very good example, it's all yucky and non-deterministic 17:38:04 but i think all the best generators are like private projects that havent been released 17:38:05 *haven't 17:38:05 Well it's better than the dumb way 17:38:10 i've heard people doing them in here 17:38:13 doraemon___: it uses a genetic algorithm 17:38:15 of 17:38:17 some kind :D 17:38:20 oklopol lynches me now 17:38:24 it's prolly just hill-climbing 17:38:24 Yeah I was thinking about doing that 17:38:27 Using a GA 17:38:27 isn't ther ea very good way 17:38:32 To find short possibilities 17:38:34 gzip 17:38:43 yeah it's some sort of hill-climbing 17:38:53 for very small inputs direct: for larger inputs ASCII: for HUGE inputs gzip 17:38:56 i read it once, but don't really remember, it definitely wasn't genetic tho 17:39:07 My friend was using a method of predicting all the possibilities within a range, like 1...n 17:39:12 But it isn't a very good way 17:39:15 doraemon___: bf_txtgen was was written by calamari. See http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/tip/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen 17:39:20 It was only 16 chars shorter than my brute force method 17:39:21 use genetic algorithms to evolve a bf text generator >:D 17:39:22 SO META 17:39:29 Oh thanks Gregor :) 17:39:48 Nothing EgoBot does is secret :P 17:39:55 (And most of it isn't mine either) 17:40:06 So that's probably one of the best methods in your opinion? 17:40:20 It's the best one you can get your hands on right now. 17:40:21 Probably not :P 17:40:21 yeah Gregor can't really do anything right so he gets other people to write his code and takes all the credit 17:40:23 But yeah. 17:40:24 I have no doubt that there are better ones. 17:40:27 oklopol: Pretty much. 17:40:30 and sometimes write 1000 page books about this 17:40:32 oklopol: he tried to do that with me and cunionfs 17:40:34 all hype 17:40:35 oklopol: It's worked pretty well so far. 17:40:39 i suspect it's because he's a jew (<-- NOTE THIS IS NOT SERIOUS) 17:40:49 I conjecture that it's possible to find the optimal brainfuck program for all strings of length below 256 17:41:09 j-invariant: It is in fact /possible/ to find the optimal brainfuck program for any given string, it's just extremely expensive. 17:41:19 j-invariant: hey we're actually inching towards a place where I can yell halting problem legitiamtely 17:41:22 *legitimately 17:41:23 Gregor: not really 17:41:28 Gregor: well, with human ingenuity, yes 17:41:36 elliott: ? not really 17:41:38 j-invariant: did you know the busy beaver function hasn't been solved for was it 5 or 6 states and binary? 17:41:41 for tm's 17:41:43 elliott: Brute-force try every BF program from shortest to longest until you find one that prints the program. QED. 17:41:44 oklopol: yeah 17:41:45 but not dumb-mechanically, because that program that runs for 100 years might then print out the right string 17:41:47 Gregor: dude... 17:41:53 Gregor: what about ones that don't halt 17:42:00 elliott: prove they don't halt 17:42:01 Gregor: that works, if you have infinite time to run them all concurrently 17:42:05 j-invariant: right, so with human ingenuity 17:42:07 j-invariant: okay, just that yours seemed kind of astronomical compared to that 17:42:13 elliott: or an automated prover 17:42:15 Gregor's is stupid though :P 17:42:28 j-invariant: that could work. maybe. for 64 char strings, sure, not 256. i'd wager. 17:42:46 oklopol: I don't see a direct connection with busy beaver? 17:42:48 elliott: I think you need an Oracle to solve the halting problem :p 17:43:01 " j-invariant: It is in fact /possible/ to find the optimal brainfuck program for any given string, it's just extremely expensive." <<< there's not even a semialgorithm for this 17:43:18 !bf_txtgen Hello, world! 17:43:21 126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [958] 17:43:47 doraemon___: damn you larry ellison 17:44:39 doraemon? 17:45:06 Yes? 17:45:11 j-invariant: there's none, but i doubt there's an essential difference in the hardness of the problem, 256 needs a pretty long bf program, and i doubt you can say *anything* about certain bf programs of really short length 17:45:20 Do I know you, Sgeo? 17:45:34 oklopol: which ones? 17:45:43 Have you ever played a game.. it was a web-based game 17:45:47 j-invariant: the ones that happen to be hard 17:45:57 hm 17:45:59 I've played web-based games... sure 17:46:01 Which one, Sgeo? 17:46:04 gee i can't imagine the name Doraemon being popular 17:46:04 With battles, etc. Someone with your name (I think) was building a superweapon 17:46:08 I don't remember the name 17:46:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:46:11 CAN'T IMAGINE 17:46:15 the shortest difficult brainfuck program I can think of is collatz 17:46:17 Hm, I'm not sure Sgeo 17:46:20 Spacefed I think? 17:46:25 Might have been a different me ;p 17:46:46 no that doesn't work 17:46:54 Space Fed Galactic Conquest 17:47:07 Hm, yeah I don't think that was me 17:47:08 * Gregor reappears. 17:47:16 Ah, darn 17:47:16 j-invariant: erm, you can implement any tm in bf with a constant size increment can't you? 17:47:20 erm 17:47:22 Sorry, Sgeo :( 17:47:47 What's the shortest brainfuck program that we don't know whether it terminates or not? 17:47:47 lawl 17:47:55 j-invariant: ,[.,] 17:47:58 ^ DEEP PHILOSOPHY SHIET 17:47:58 say keep state in n first bits in every second bit 17:48:01 that doesn't use inputs 17:48:05 DARN 17:48:11 and move that around 17:48:11 collatz i would guess 17:48:13 or some TM 17:48:20 erm what, how small is this collatz? 17:48:26 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/collatz.b 17:48:26 but 17:48:29 should make an automated prover for halting of brainfuck, then use that to kill of boring candidates 17:48:30 it takes decimals on input 17:48:32 remove the output 17:48:32 It would have been in 2003 17:48:35 * Sgeo shrugs 17:48:36 and have it just iterate through every natural 17:48:42 so 17:48:45 that should be fairly short 17:48:48 probably shorter than what's there even 17:49:17 Sgeo: funny how 2003 seems like such a long time ago now... 17:49:40 isn't that collatz only long because of parsing input 17:49:42 i mean 17:49:53 shouldn't be more than a few characters, division isn't very hard 17:50:53 but anyway, i find it unlikely that the shortest program your halting prover gets stuck in makes any sense at all, it's just a program with a random characters that happens to not have trivial behavior. 17:51:41 *-a 17:52:10 bf might certainly be especially slow at hitting something like that 17:52:39 yeah if you made it just iterate, not print, and not take input, that collatz could be tiny 17:53:05 i'll make an arbitrary conjecture: bf programs are easy to prove up up to size 38 17:53:19 place your bets now 17:53:25 Define "easy" 17:53:27 ask definitions later 17:53:30 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:53:41 oklopol: how do you define SIZE 17:53:43 damn, was too slow 17:53:47 how do you define TO 17:53:54 How do you define "38"? 17:54:00 How do you define "I'll"? 17:54:03 oklopol: so can we have N-input, N-output functions 17:54:05 Gregor: the obvious way, if there's a dispute, i'm right, you're wrong 17:54:06 oklopol: specifically, 0-input ones 17:54:07 and 0-output ones 17:54:15 and i get the moneys 17:54:34 elliott: what, in these bf programs? 17:54:40 no 17:54:43 in klew 17:54:56 oh i totally didn't see that coming 17:55:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGIii_eTOk <<< why exactly did i have this retarded shit in my browser? 17:55:38 elliott: i don't like how 0 io looks like, syntactically 17:55:44 otherwise i'd have no potato with them 17:55:51 oklopol: sure, but it makes cled so less ugly... 17:55:54 holes are like 17:55:56 the biggest bug ever 17:56:02 maybe they are allowed in the language, but you can't actually write any? 17:56:05 you can have the ast in an invalid state, and all it does is sit there looking slightly ugly 17:56:08 oklopol: xD 17:56:17 oklopol: well let's put it this way 17:56:23 oklopol: you're going to add N+1-output functions right? 17:56:24 well 17:56:29 do you know who thinks 0 isn't a natural? 17:56:30 that's right 17:56:31 stupid people 17:56:34 and do you know what set you'd be using 17:56:36 N\{0} 17:56:37 parameters 17:56:38 now 17:56:39 what is that oklopol 17:56:41 that is 17:56:43 HIDEOUS 17:56:45 you, if you do that, are hideous 17:56:47 don't be hideous 17:56:49 N-io 17:56:53 maybe i am hideous, you haven't seen me 17:56:59 yes i have 17:57:01 you were on the map thing 17:57:07 ...oh right 17:57:10 xD 17:57:31 well i was pretty sexy in that pic so i guess i have nothing more to say 17:57:41 what you have to say is 17:57:44 OK DUDE N-INPUT-OUTPUT BITCH 17:57:57 no syntax for them must ever exist. 17:58:06 oklopol: um you're adding syntax for N-output 17:58:08 surely 17:58:16 oklopol: c'moooon :( 17:58:26 yeah, just whitespace separate the outputs 17:58:30 yes 17:58:36 lol ~ {. -> } 17:58:41 yeah that's ugly 17:58:41 oklopol: it's for the greater good dude 17:58:43 but hmm 17:58:44 yes it is 17:58:44 which is why 17:58:46 you should never write it 17:58:50 but you could also write clue code like this 17:58:57 MAYBE A SEPARATE SYNTAX FOR WRITING ZERO ARG FUNCTIONS 17:59:01 this_Is_A_Name~{: . hello->[1 2 17:59:04 :D 17:59:05 3]} this_Is_A_Name 17:59:08 ~ x;y; z 17:59:10 that is hideous 17:59:12 but you don't do that 17:59:17 because you're a good clueist 17:59:24 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:59:27 same reason you wouldn't do "lol ~ {. -> }", not only is it useless 17:59:29 but it's fucking ugly too 17:59:47 oklopol: alternatively: remove N-inputs and just have every function take one input 17:59:48 :D 18:00:20 okay have your fucking party, i don't actually give a shit about whether {. -> } is legal 18:00:33 also..... 18:00:46 {. -> 1} will be totally useful with hardcore functions 18:00:50 by which i mean higher-order 18:00:52 wtfbbq is going on here :P 18:00:57 oklopol: i have the perfect way to write it 18:01:02 oklopol: {.-> 1} 18:01:05 yeah 18:01:08 oklopol: .-> is the lambda arrow's retarded cousin 18:01:12 :D 18:01:16 Gregor: clue 18:01:21 get one 18:01:25 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:01:29 DO NOT WANT 18:01:35 oklopol: anyway actually implementing that will have to wait for you to add n-outputs, so :P 18:01:36 for now i'll just 18:01:38 eliminate holes 18:01:44 and force you to replace, not delete 18:01:46 the last two elems 18:01:47 mmmm n outputs 18:01:48 why didn't i think of that 18:01:50 OH RIGHT 18:01:54 because inserting a branch is like liquid pain 18:01:56 * oklopol touches with red thing in mouth 18:02:15 Your uvula? 18:02:30 no you pervert 18:02:52 MEN DON'T UVULATE 18:03:03 :D 18:04:16 for some reason i know that word in english, but i remember i didn't know it in finnish until a friend of mine whose dad is a dentist told me 18:04:23 it's like the most useless thing ever 18:04:36 http://theorymine.co.uk/ haha what 18:05:30 elliott: so embarassing 18:05:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Drøvel drøvel drøvel). 18:05:59 i would certainly like to know what they look like 18:06:05 what's the best automated termination checker for brainfuck? 18:06:24 don't know. 18:06:26 what is this thing what 18:06:27 why does this exist 18:06:29 j-invariant: there is none :P 18:06:37 it's often trivial to prove 18:06:40 probaly just running the damn thing for 100000 iterations 18:06:51 e.g. [ on an even number with balanced > and < means it loops forever 18:07:04 well. with no nested loops 18:07:10 wait that isn't true 18:07:12 i forget the rule :D 18:07:44 yeah [-] is a counterexample 18:08:07 there's a rule 18:08:09 look at esotope for it :P 18:08:16 actually an automated termination checker for bf would be fun 18:08:41 well there are many obvious things you can do, like look at which cells it actually changed, and wait for loop 18:08:56 if you just code all the obvious rules that would be a good start 18:09:09 there's an O(1) way for certain loops 18:09:11 then you can inspect the programs it doesn't get, and learn more sophistcated rules from them 18:09:14 that can tell you it doesn't halt 18:09:21 based on extended euclidean algorithm 18:09:22 very simple 18:09:24 this is assuming 8-bit cells 18:09:33 it could easily be modified to spit out a certificate to prove it 18:09:35 if it does not halt 18:09:53 j-invariant: nice idea, but usually the first one you inspect will be completely out of your reach 18:10:08 oklopol: I doubt that, why do you say that? Think it will be a collatz type thing? 18:10:16 my experience is mostly based on trying to find the smallest aperiodic set of wang tiles in the summer 18:10:17 oklopol: if so, then that's my goal! I want to find that program 18:10:37 oklopol: wow cool how did that go? 18:10:40 we ran computer simulations, and when a tile set didn't work, we looked at it manually 18:10:41 "This really captured my imagination and I'm delighted to buy TheoryMine's first Theorem. What an inventive use of Scotland's expertise in artificial intelligence to create such a novel and fun product". — TheoryMine testimonials. 18:10:49 I AM NOT SCOTTISH SHE DOES NOT REPRESENT ME 18:10:56 and you could never say anything about them, after hours, you just ended up running the computer program for longer... 18:10:58 * Sgeo decides that The Onion Audio news suck 18:11:04 Anne Glover, Chief Scientific Officer for Scotland 18:11:05 It's the only sucky Onion thing 18:11:06 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa 18:11:24 Sgeo: the onion is good for the headlines. 18:11:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:11:25 Clearly she is personally responsible for the suckishness of the computing curriculum. 18:11:27 the articles are superfluous. 18:11:30 oklopol: to my knowledge, every set of wang tiles except one is based on substitution 18:11:36 lol wang 18:11:36 ahem 18:11:41 well, there was one that had something the program didn't catch: there was a way to convert it into a smaller one that would've had to be aperiodic as well 18:11:42 and the one that's not is based on irrational numbers 18:11:43 j-invariant: proposed first step in the halting checker: see if esotope produces a simple infinite loop for it 18:11:48 j-invariant: it has a bunch of checks for that, i believe 18:11:49 j-invariant: yeah, that smallest one is not based on substitution 18:11:49 so they all "come from somewhere" 18:11:52 for instanec 18:11:52 j-invariant: proposed first step in the halting checker: see if esotope 18:11:53 erm 18:11:55 233 elif len(result) == 1 and result[0][0] == result[0][1]: 18:11:56 234 if result[0][0] is None: 18:11:58 235 return Always() 18:12:00 *instance 18:12:02 from its condition code 18:12:04 and that's made by my employer 18:12:04 can't find the extended euclidean thing 18:12:12 which is why i was doing that in the sumemr 18:12:14 *summer 18:12:21 I wish that they had example theorems somewhere. 18:12:34 aha 18:12:38 Phantom_Hoover: they do 18:12:43 j-invariant: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/5bdae1176f46/bfc/opt/simpleloop.py 18:12:51 (actually that's not completely true, since his colleaque changed a small detail to get one less tile, but that is a less interesting story) 18:12:58 90 # let w be the overflow value, which is 256 for char etc. 18:12:58 91 # then there are three cases in the following code: 18:12:59 92 # i = 0; for (j = 0; i != x; ++j) i += m; 18:13:00 93 # 18:13:02 94 # 1. if m = 0, it loops forever. 18:13:04 95 # 2. otherwise, the condition j * m = x (mod w) must hold. 18:13:06 96 # let u * m + v * w = gcd(m,w), and 18:13:07 elliott, where... 18:13:08 97 # 1) if x is not a multiple of gcd(m,w), it loops forever. 18:13:10 98 # 2) otherwise it terminates and j = u * (x / gcd(m,w)). 18:13:12 99 # 18:13:14 100 # we can calculate u and gcd(m,w) in the compile time, but 18:13:16 101 # x is not (yet). so we shall add simple check for now. 18:13:18 j-invariant: ^ 18:13:28 Oh, right. 18:13:42 Phantom_Hoover: also http://dream.inf.ed.ac.uk/events/automatheo-2010/papers/automatheo2010_submission_1.pdf 18:14:04 j-invariant: how is it that all these systems that seem to do better than coq get overlooked, btw? 18:14:08 j-invariant: HOL and Isabelle and stuff 18:14:14 j-invariant: yeah, the ones that people have been able to prove things about come from somewhere; that's exactly my point, when they don't come from somewhere, you're screwed 18:14:32 j-invariant: I can understand Mizar, which has a very comprehensive development, being overlooked for being proprietary and non-constructive; and Automath too for similar reasons and also being old 18:14:35 but the others? 18:14:54 for wang tiles, it seems possible that the best solution actually makes sense, since we're at 13, and 9 has been proven not to contain aperiodics afair 18:16:02 elliott: oh that was for balanced unnested? 18:16:12 well obviously that's trivial, since you just have to look at the evolution of the current cell 18:16:13 oklopol: i dunno :D 18:16:13 lol 18:16:15 but yeah 18:16:29 LOL i say 18:16:38 lo your own ol 18:16:50 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:17:24 should prolly go to sleep 18:17:46 last week i had 28 hour days, this week they seem to be more like 20 18:17:47 elliott: help me write a brainfuck termination checker? 18:18:12 j-invariant: sure ... as long as it's not TOO hard 18:18:18 j-invariant: what proof language should the certificates be in? 18:18:27 :D 18:18:40 elliott: I always have in mind the version where all the cells can contain infinitely large integers 18:18:55 j-invariant: i dislike that version intensely 18:18:59 either that or binary, everything else is retarded 18:19:01 j-invariant: that collatz uses 8-bit cells anyway 18:19:06 so why not :P 18:19:15 j-invariant: most programs are written for 8-bit cells anyway 18:19:15 also 18:19:16 it's just the 8bit thing is so bloody confusing 18:19:19 why 18:19:22 except holding up to 37, and wrapping to 19 18:19:24 I can never get my head around that wrap around stuff 18:19:29 oklopol: xD like deadfish 18:19:30 if we have arbitrary integers, 18:19:33 then the tape must be only two long 18:19:36 that is my proclamation 18:19:43 eh 18:19:50 j-invariant: the nice thing about 8-bit integers 18:19:52 I am fine with 8 bit numbers 18:19:54 lets go with that 18:19:57 integers? 18:19:58 j-invariant: is that they make the work a bit easier 18:20:01 so they can be negative.. 18:20:03 because the tape sort of segments them out 18:20:03 ? 18:20:03 er no 18:20:09 what 18:20:10 8-bit non-negative integers 18:20:11 0 to 255 18:20:12 okay good 18:20:13 make the work easier?!? 18:20:16 oklopol: sort of :D 18:20:18 when writing a termination checker 18:20:21 hey afaict they make everything harder 18:20:23 that's just plain not true! 18:20:32 oklopol: you can't do that fancy euclidean stuff with arbitraries! 18:20:34 :D 18:20:38 -!- Zuu has joined. 18:20:38 everything gets really hairy, a mathematician would never have wrap 256 18:21:07 well a boolfuck termination checker is a lot more boring 18:21:10 elliott: umm, for infinites, that algo doesn't even need modular arithmetic 18:21:15 because there's less existing programs to poke it at 18:21:23 oklopol: hmmmmmmm 18:21:24 but 18:21:26 but things assume 8-bit 18:21:29 but 18:21:40 that is, you don't even *need* that fancy euclidean stuff 18:21:58 hmm 18:22:00 infinite things are usually much simpler than finite ones 18:22:00 but but oklopol 18:22:04 how can i feed mandelbrot.b do it 18:22:05 *to it 18:22:09 do whom? 18:22:27 good point 18:22:41 you won't be able to prove anything about the halting of mandelbrot.b anyway 18:23:01 oklopol: how do YOU know 18:23:03 maybe me and j-invariant 18:23:03 are 18:23:03 the 18:23:05 BEST 18:23:07 coders 18:23:24 i've heard j-invariant sucks at coding 18:23:37 from him, like, umm, yesterday? 18:23:46 and if he doesn't know, who will 18:23:50 i certainly won't. 18:23:51 but i do. 18:24:01 and you 18:24:02 oh 18:24:07 don't even get me started about you 18:24:07 what 18:24:11 i am 18:24:13 the BEST 18:24:26 you maybe the best, but i ask you: best at *what*? 18:24:45 oklopol: code 18:24:57 oh yeah i forgot what we were talking about 18:25:10 :D 18:26:58 so um oklopol 18:27:04 use cled for writing like 18:27:05 everything 18:27:06 okay? 18:27:18 does it play well with latex 18:27:21 18:22 < oklopol> you won't be able to prove anything about the halting of mandelbrot.b anyway 18:27:26 why not? Isn't that one pretty simple? 18:27:31 oklopol: it always uses a condom, why do you ask 18:27:39 j-invariant: i think you're a little too enthusiastic about the powers of automated proving 18:28:02 j-invariant: i don't even remember the algorithm 18:28:04 what was it? 18:28:05 elliott: isn't it basically for(int i = 0; i < 100; i++) { do stuff } 18:28:16 j-invariant: well maybe 18:28:27 then it's very possible you will be able to prove stuff about that 18:28:29 j-invariant: I think we should use esotope's code partly 18:28:32 j-invariant: it has this intermediate format 18:28:39 sure 18:28:47 does a lot of constant folding, adds arithmetic expressions 18:28:47 for loops 18:28:52 even detects some infinite loops 18:28:57 that would be a lot easier to prove on i feel 18:33:29 j-invariant: so um... what certificate lang 18:34:00 elliott: it can be anything. You choose 18:34:06 I would use Coq but that's just because I have it installed 18:34:07 j-invariant: i don't know :D 18:34:16 j-invariant: auto-generating Coq sounds a bit painful? 18:34:26 j-invariant: I think generating lambda expressions is probably the "easiest" thing 18:34:29 rather than automating tactics 18:35:05 j-invariant: so i really don't know :) 18:35:30 probably just program the whole thing in Ltac 18:35:46 nah that would be really slow 18:35:50 it does need efficiecy 18:36:00 j-invariant: yeah naw 18:36:10 j-invariant: I was thinking it'd be a Haskell program 18:36:19 j-invariant: of course we _could_ just not generate any certificates, but that's much less fun 18:36:34 elliott: yes certificate is important 18:36:36 or you could think about that when your program is ready up to that point 18:36:40 elliott: otherwise there may be a bug in the program 18:36:48 oklopol: um it's actually relevant from the start 18:36:52 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:36:54 oklopol: it has to use certificates from the very first line 18:36:56 it's not 18:37:00 yes, it is 18:37:02 not 18:37:05 because the certificates must be generated as part of the process 18:37:06 oklopol works without a safety net 18:37:08 rather than after the fact 18:37:28 why? 18:37:29 anyone here using FF 4.x ? 18:37:36 (and adblockplus) 18:37:43 oklopol: because that's how these things work? 18:37:49 otherwise it's duplicated work 18:40:04 maybe sure the actual program will have to write certificates from the start, but i don't see why you'd need to know what proof language you'll be using from the start when writing the halting checker 18:40:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:42:20 oklopol: because with certificate stuff, every single bit of reasoning involves a certificate 18:42:23 you can't just say 18:42:28 if foo then doesn't halt else dunno 18:42:30 you have to say 18:42:46 if foo then (doesn't halt, proof that it doesn't halt in this specific case using general theorem involving "foo") else dunno 18:53:39 i'm going to have to make my emacs font smaller 18:53:43 so what you're saying is the finding of the proofs is not actually harder compared to the proving 18:53:45 i mean 18:54:03 oklopol: the point is that you can't really do just one. 18:54:05 geh, whatever 18:54:13 but yes, doing certificates _is_ actually pretty hard 18:55:08 * Sgeo headaches 18:55:12 well given that j-invariant complains about how hard it is to prove trivial things about every second day, it's hard not to believe that 18:55:13 Maybe I should eat breakfast 18:55:25 all i'm saying is you don't have to do the search for the proof in a safe way+ 18:55:28 *-+ 18:55:32 oklopol: what do you mean 18:55:47 oklopol: also, yes, proving trivial things is hard in Coq etc. 18:55:54 no it's not hard proving trivial things is it? 18:56:00 well 18:56:03 oklopol has a very lax definition of trivial. 18:56:05 I thought I was complaining abuot not having support for certain features 18:56:08 hard to say without knowing what kind of stuff you're going to do 18:56:26 i don't think modelling category theory in type theory is 18:56:27 "trivial" 18:56:49 j-invariant: well maybe you've once complained about something and it sounded like you were complaining about something that was trivial, but actually you meant there was no nice way to do it or something 18:56:55 i was just being colorful 18:57:05 and yeah, i have a very lax definition of trivial 18:57:53 say existence of infinitely many primes is trivial 18:58:09 j-invariant: why doesn't emacs always have two copies of every buffer 18:58:11 displaye 18:58:11 d 18:58:12 well maybe i would say that's simple 18:58:14 not trivial 19:00:11 j-invariant: have you ever used teco, i think everyone should use teco 19:00:13 for 19:00:14 everything 19:00:17 including editing clue 19:00:19 who needs cled 19:00:59 it's possible that in the case of bf programs, there isn't really much of a search stage 19:01:54 but hard to say without knowing what specific things you're going to prove the halting of 19:02:49 I've heard o fit :P 19:02:53 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:03:17 j-invariant: it's great, because instead of using a program to program 19:03:20 j-invariant: you program to program 19:03:26 every editor operation is a little mini program :) 19:03:32 now you have two problems! 19:04:49 lol 19:05:04 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:05:31 -!- elliott has joined. 19:05:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:07:21 oklopol: writing cled is so hard why do you do this to me 19:13:35 is for science 19:13:57 -!- BMG has joined. 19:14:34 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host). 19:14:34 -!- BMG has joined. 19:14:39 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 19:17:01 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:19:22 j-invariant: write a program whose only function is to output a proof that it works correctly 19:19:27 i.e., only ever outputs correct proofs 19:21:23 elliott: the more sophisticated an automatical thoerem prover for brainfuck termination is, the further away turings liar program is 19:21:43 e.g. a really simple termination checker could be reimplemented in brainfuck and lied to in maybe, 3000 symbols. 19:21:52 But a very advanced one would take 10000 symbols 19:21:59 j-invariant: i want to see that program :D 19:22:02 that i mentioned 19:22:06 /described 19:22:56 i don't get it. What does it do? 19:23:26 it would be an implementation fo the termination checker looking at this program AND a quine 19:23:46 and you fit the quine into the termination checker and do the opposite of what it says 19:24:28 j-invariant: that's not necessarily true, since the formal proof system could be implemented in 5000 symbols, making all your further efforts pointless 19:24:30 It is a simple matter to make a stronger termination checker which can detect the termination of this pathological program 19:24:42 oklopol: I don't understand 19:24:58 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:24:59 oklopol: oh you mean godel instead of turing: Okay, I get it 19:25:30 j-invariant: yeah it's a simple matter, as long as you don't expect to find a proof in the same formal system 19:26:07 this is only termination certificates though -- the actual termination checker is written in a turing machine 19:26:21 elliott: hey we should just cut the crap and write the termination checker in brainfuck 19:26:34 j-invariant: oh yeah that sounds like a barrel of fun laughs 19:26:40 elliott: none of this python etc. 19:26:43 but i have an even better idea to do first 19:26:45 let's hang ourselves 19:26:48 or wait wait wait 19:26:48 lol 19:26:51 go bathe in a vat of acid 19:26:54 LOL 19:26:55 omg how can i decide 19:26:58 ;_; 19:27:12 maybe have all my skin removed slowly before my internal organs are devoured by an angry goat, and then my skeleton is set on fire 19:27:37 j-invariant: re i don't get it 19:27:42 j-invariant: a program X, with only one function 19:27:53 j-invariant: when X is invoked, it returns a proof certificate P 19:28:03 j-invariant: this P is a proof of the statement that X works correctly 19:28:14 j-invariant: example definition of "works correctly": 19:28:19 forall P in Ps, P 19:28:27 where Ps is the set of proofs that X outputs 19:28:29 except *IsCorrect P 19:28:31 LOL 19:28:32 you get what i mean 19:28:36 * Sgeo wonders how easy or difficult it is to make a self-hosting language 19:28:50 "I am correct" 19:28:52 so basically, it outputs a proof P that proves that every proof X outputs (of which there is only one, P) is correct 19:28:53 yep :D 19:29:00 I guess part of it really does require making a compiler, doesn't it? 19:29:09 Sgeo: kinda. 19:29:10 Sgeo: or just an interpreter 19:29:11 not really 19:29:14 you could run it all on top of python 19:29:18 like you run it all on top of x86 19:30:23 Sgeo: it's a good feeling though when you delete the original 19:30:24 But.. that's not that interesting, is it? 19:30:33 j-invariant, right, that's what I want 19:30:40 Sgeo: you should do it!!! 19:30:45 Sgeo: it's a good feeling when you delete the x86 19:30:50 after creating a processor for your language 19:30:52 and then delete physics 19:30:58 ddelete the universe :D 19:31:00 after making sure your language is hosted independently of physics 19:31:08 basically the idea is to replace everything with your language 19:31:09 EVERYTHING 19:31:10 no dependencies 19:31:10 EVER 19:31:11 the qustiion is "How low can you go" 19:31:15 language limbo 19:31:17 -!- calamari has joined. 19:31:23 ^^ GUYS GENIUS PUN? 19:31:27 I loled 19:32:12 j-invariant: deleting the original though, i would never do that 19:32:15 what if i lose my interpreter binary 19:32:30 or i find a fatal bug 19:32:36 that means all compilers have a contagious bug 19:32:38 accidental trusting trust :D 19:33:00 What did the original for gcc use? 19:33:09 umm, they just used other C compilers. 19:33:17 that's the advantage of doing it for a mostly portable language :P 19:33:20 type the assembly by hand 19:33:21 *with a 19:33:28 then type the source code 19:33:35 and check that compilation gives you back the compiler 19:33:35 j-invariant: *machine code 19:33:37 with a butterfly 19:33:42 that's what to do if no programming languages exist 19:34:06 j-invariant: assembly is a language 19:34:32 http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezzh4/why_not/c1canyy?context=1 THIS IS THE BEST WORST IDEA EVER 19:34:46 lol @ the recipe below that 19:34:49 Does compiling to LLVM make sense? 19:35:13 http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezzh4/why_not/c1cbsrt <-- haha 19:35:14 only if you're a LOSER 19:35:16 writing x86 assembly is easier 19:35:17 tbh 19:35:17 you can put these in it 19:35:31 ?? 19:35:40 Sgeo: ? 19:35:41 j-invariant: 19:35:43 j-invariant: i think that 19:35:49 j-invariant: one obsidian in the topright 19:35:52 elliott, are you serious? 19:35:56 j-invariant: tnt to the right of that 19:35:56 x86 is easier? 19:35:59 j-invariant: diamond to the right of that 19:36:00 Sgeo: yes 19:36:03 x86 asm is trivial 19:36:10 Wait 19:36:10 llvm asm is pretty complex :P 19:36:14 j-invariant: then below that 19:36:21 Compilers compile into asm? Wouldn't machine code make more sense? 19:36:21 j-invariant: a golden apple on the left 19:36:24 ... 19:36:29 Sgeo: sure, gcc outputs gnu assembly syntax 19:36:35 Sgeo: machine code is just as easy, though :P 19:36:40 if you define the instructions as names in your program 19:36:42 and registers too 19:36:45 that's like a ghetto assembler 19:37:39 If I compile to x86, then certain things will be platform-dependent 19:37:44 Erm, OS-dependent 19:37:54 Sgeo: doesn't matter. 19:38:03 syscalls are easier than anything else anyway. 19:38:07 you could just compile to C. 19:38:16 Sgeo: llvm assembly is quite platform specific anyway 19:38:18 in a lot of cases 19:38:40 elliott, you won't be able to try my super-cool language that is poorly designed and only exists to prove to myself that I can write a self-hosting language. 19:38:47 why no 19:38:48 t 19:38:55 ? 19:39:04 elliott, I'm on Windows, and not particularly likely to switch to Linux to do this 19:39:07 LOL 19:39:08 LOL 19:39:09 LOL 19:39:09 LOL 19:39:14 i don't even know if windows has syscalls 19:39:18 continuation-based backtracking! \o/ 19:39:18 | 19:39:18 |\ 19:39:19 and if they do calling them will probably be a bitch 19:39:20 well 19:39:23 you could use dos-style interrupts 19:39:26 but those are a bitch to use 19:39:29 also, all the assemblers suck 19:39:35 lol lol lol @ the idea of doing this on windows 19:40:31 Windows has syscalls but you rarely ever see them; you just call library functions instead. 19:40:45 don't they have that fucked up calling convention 19:40:46 lool 19:41:37 It's stdcall, which is a bit strange; callee cleans up the stack. 19:42:02 "nice" 19:42:12 fizzie: wait, so C functions re-push their arguments? 19:42:17 to get popped right after? 19:42:19 augur: that's so yesterday 19:42:20 that's the most brilliantly stupid thing ... ever 19:42:28 oklopol: yes but NOT FOR ME 19:42:32 i GET it 19:42:36 i grok it man 19:42:39 its intuitive 19:42:44 didn't you get it yesterday? 19:43:06 well, i thought i did 19:43:09 augur: it's also inefficient 19:43:09 but i just wrote some code 19:43:14 and figured it out 19:43:16 elliott: I don't know what that means. In foo(a,b,c) the caller does push c; push b; push a; call foo; and foo itself takes care of popping the arguments. (Unlike cdecl where the caller would adjust the stack back.) 19:43:17 elliott: oh sure, thats not the point 19:43:19 oh okay 19:43:26 the point is to understand what people have thought of 19:43:31 then it's not yesterday, then it's today 19:43:42 elliott: you know who else is inefficient? 19:43:44 fizzie: that seems actually saner for some things 19:43:47 oklopol: my butt? 19:43:50 :| 19:43:52 OH LOOK AT THAT 19:43:52 SUBVERSION 19:44:00 elliott butt x3 19:44:03 oh shit you won 19:44:06 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:44:08 augur: lolpedo 19:44:14 darn wait it's ephebo now 19:44:15 It looks a bit neater; though it then breaks worse than cdecl if the caller and callee disagree about the number of arguments. 19:44:16 less catchy :( 19:44:24 And I think vararg functions are more messy somehow. 19:44:28 fizzie: Right. 19:44:35 elliott: you werent prepubescent when you were 13 either 19:44:40 but thats not the point 19:44:42 augur: HOW DO YOU KNOW 19:44:47 question: I have some coal and I want to make glass.... 19:44:56 well im guessing you're not weird 19:44:57 but should I use it to make glass or use it to find more coal? 19:45:02 liking 15yo is not really a philia 19:45:04 -!- variable has joined. 19:45:12 -!- rom9com1 has joined. 19:45:17 for oklopol, its reality! 19:45:21 :D 19:45:22 * augur licks oklopol 19:45:39 j-invariant: well 19:45:42 j-invariant: how much coal do you have 19:45:42 -!- rom9com has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:45:51 elliott: not sure, ilike 30 bits 19:45:53 j-invariant: i mean obviously you need to keep a lot for torches and shit 19:45:59 haha keep shity 19:46:16 j-invariant: well, 1 coal can make 8 glass out of 8 sand 19:46:27 j-invariant: but you need torches to explore, and coal is useful besides 19:46:38 j-invariant: getting e.g. 64 coal should not take long at all -- are you mining properly? 19:47:14 j-invariant: coal is very easy to find, just keep a couple boxes full of it to make sure you don't accidentally run out 19:47:26 elliott: probably not X) 19:47:36 j-invariant: how are you mining 19:47:39 oklopol: how much is a box full? 19:47:47 many, many stacks of 64. but only oklopol does that. 19:47:47 elliott: several different ways, to find out what works well 19:47:51 you accumulate tons of it naturally usually 19:48:00 The most coal I ever found was just by exploring, and noticing it on the sides of hills 19:48:07 j-invariant: use the wiki, really :) 19:48:13 j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Mining_Techniques lists all the viable mining techniques 19:48:19 j-invariant: apart from that -- you do spelunk right? 19:48:29 whats that 19:48:38 j-invariant: going into caves 19:48:40 btw I also started a quarry because I wanted obsidian 19:48:40 and cavern systems 19:48:43 and lighting them 19:48:43 but that doesn't work great 19:48:44 and mining ore there 19:48:50 quarry howso 19:48:58 My coal-box only has 7*64. :/ 19:48:59 j-invariant, if you want obsidian, find some lava 19:49:25 j-invariant: really, don't be ashamed of reading the wiki, it's not fun to be all "oh how can i get coal" :) 19:49:37 and since the game has no real objective... if it's not fun, just look it up 19:50:19 I have lots of coal 19:50:37 I was just wondering if I should use it to set up somet mine or just create glass now 19:53:18 ell? :)) 19:55:13 elliott: I should build a spiral staircase that goes right down to lava 19:55:20 j-invariant, check the wiki. Reading the wiki is fun. 19:55:42 j-invariant, a straight one works fine? Though there aren't lava lakes everywhere. They are lava lakes after all 19:55:46 i doubt i have a full box of coal even on my local 19:55:49 prolly close 19:55:59 (with emphasis on lake) 19:56:06 j-invariant: i've built a staircase that goes down to bedrock zomg :P 19:56:10 of course, i use it about once every 5 steps 19:56:57 elliott, movecraft is fun btw. Sad it doesn't handle redstone, chests or doors yet 19:57:46 on esoserver you can just mine straight down because you can't die :( 19:57:47 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Quarry <-- dunno if this is a troll article or not 19:57:50 or rotating the boat/shift/aircraft/whatever for turning 19:58:12 WHERE'S THE MINECRAFT IN THAT? 19:58:20 oklopol, ? 19:58:22 to me? 19:58:24 or to j-invariant? 19:58:47 to neither, continuation to what i said earlier 19:59:17 ah 19:59:41 j-invariant, well if you are mining for cobble (which probably only happens when you are doing megascale structures) they a quarry can work well 19:59:51 if you want ores then they are useless 20:00:36 do hostile mobs spawn in trees? 20:00:59 j-invariant: the Cube is basically a gigantic quarry 20:01:00 or, well, will be 20:01:08 elliott: I have a treehouse and a zombie sometiems spawns next to the tree ontop 20:01:19 yeah my treehouse is open air :D 20:01:20 maybe a bad idae 20:01:22 idea 20:01:28 j-invariant, do they spawn on leaves or on logs only? 20:01:35 well it's the ground 20:01:43 I have a layer of mud ontop of my house to grow trees on 20:02:40 if a creeper spawns in the fucking tree i will die 20:02:44 j-invariant: mud? you mean dirt? :P 20:02:59 yes 20:03:05 elliott, add some glass walls? 20:03:12 elliott, or light up the tree? 20:03:19 Vorpal: um this is first night 20:03:22 elliott, ah 20:03:23 the tree is lit, kinda 20:03:25 i can light it more 20:03:37 elliott, well that is an easy way to protect yourself! 20:04:07 there, all lit up 20:04:23 [[In Beta, lava is less reactive with horizontal water flows. It also has a chance of forming redstone ore when water runs on top of it [citation needed]. Lava pools without a source will degrade to dirt after a given time period.]] 20:04:42 lol, skeleton in the trees >_< 20:04:46 don't shoot me 20:04:48 (another tree) 20:04:48 also once movecraft gets fixed I think a yacht might be a cool living place. But at the moment that is not viable. 20:05:00 oh god spider noise 20:05:01 is it just me 20:05:06 or do the monsters always seem to be closer 20:05:07 than they are 20:05:08 by the sounds 20:05:10 [[In Beta, lava is less reactive with horizontal water flows. It also has a chance of forming redstone ore when water runs on top of it [citation needed]. Lava pools without a source will degrade to dirt after a given time period.]] <-- that sounds made up 20:05:14 elliott: How do I lift water up? 20:05:18 j-invariant: bucket 20:05:22 e.g. to make an aquaduckt 20:05:26 elliott, the dirt think I'm pretty sure is wrong for example 20:05:31 no other way ;9 20:05:32 :( 20:05:36 j-invariant: just make bukkits 20:05:38 only requires a few iron 20:05:44 EIdon't have iron ingots 20:05:47 3 iron for a bucket 20:05:51 "When you stay in Lava for about 1-2 seconds, your character makes noises which appear to go along to "When the Saints Go Marching In."" 20:05:52 what xD 20:05:55 j-invariant, well can't be done without a bucket 20:06:02 iw onder if that's intentional 20:06:02 elliott, dude that is a troll 20:06:03 *i wonder 20:06:06 Vorpal: i don't care 20:06:08 i don't want it to be 20:06:08 also 20:06:11 your definition of troll sucks 20:06:12 joke != troll 20:06:27 elliott, well a joke should be funny. That is just pathetic 20:06:33 no, it's amusing 20:06:36 oh god why do the spiders sound so fucking close 20:06:37 are they close 20:06:43 elliott, you have no sense of humour 20:07:02 i thought he had too much of it 20:07:16 like a sixth sense of humor 20:07:19 oklopol, well maybe he has an anti-sense of humor 20:07:26 erm 20:07:38 bbl 20:07:45 do you copy words from other people too? i was just about to correct humor to humour because you used that 20:07:52 but then 20:08:00 you go and spoil it by now having used both 20:08:28 wtf pig 20:08:32 how did you get on top of that tree 20:08:32 i just totally instantiated my own oklopol 20:08:56 lol 20:09:01 but no one knows 20:09:06 he's in my CLOSURE. 20:09:19 i KNEW you were gay 20:09:28 wat 20:09:33 :D 20:09:42 maybe cheater99 is augur 20:09:45 this theory is backed by EVIDENCE 20:09:46 what sort of gay hating is that now 20:09:55 i'm only useful for 7 things, and 6 of them i can do on this channel. 20:10:08 the seventh is knitting 20:10:10 is not 20:10:19 is it not? what is the seventh then 20:10:40 elliott: not being here 20:10:45 he's good for that. 20:10:47 he can do that 20:10:50 it's called af 20:10:50 k 20:10:59 I'm useful for, um 20:11:12 yea but he can't do that on the channel 20:11:21 obviously by definition. 20:11:38 [[4.) Continue the process of mining a layer, and then another, until you hit bedrock. This may take a few days of vigorous playing to accomplish, but your earnings will make it well worth it. Most quarries yield an average of 150 stacks of coal, 50 stacks of iron ore, 20 stacks of gold ore, 5 stacks of obsidian, and a maximum of 1 stack of diamond gems, though these results vary with the width, depth and location of your quarry.[cita 20:11:38 tion needed] (see discussion section)]] 20:11:39 hmmhmm 20:11:39 4 bits of coal produce 2 glass blocks??? 20:11:46 j-invariant: dude... 20:11:54 j-invariant: 1 bit of coal = 8 output; 1 bit of sand = 1 output 20:12:01 ?? 20:12:04 j-invariant: N sand -> N glass, requiring ceil(N/8) coal 20:12:04 http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Smeltingmenu.png 20:12:12 j-invariant: that is in progress 20:12:16 as you can plainly see by the arrow 20:12:18 and the fires 20:12:23 it takes time to smelt 20:13:11 Why would you use coal to smelt? 20:13:26 Wood works and is renewable 20:13:34 really?? 20:13:57 Note: Just because what I said is true, doesn't make it a good idea. 20:15:14 j-invariant: Sgeo is being stuepid, coal is far more efficient & practical to use for smelting. 20:15:26 j-invariant: See http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Furnace#Fuel_efficiency. 20:15:57 Until the day you have to go on tremendously long minecart rides to get coal 20:15:58 ofc if you have some lava... :D 20:16:02 Sgeo: what 20:16:03 lava can smelt? 20:16:05 getting coal is easy 20:16:09 j-invariant: a bucket of it, yes, it also destroys the bucket 20:16:11 j-invariant: hideously impractical 20:16:14 nobody does it 20:19:52 Wood works and is renewable ← only Vorpal cares about this, and he couldn't be bothered. 20:19:59 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=20891 20:20:04 Oh, has the Sustainable project been canceled, Vorpal? 20:20:07 *cancelled 20:20:25 I presume so. 20:20:26 Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr guy wipes cave sounds due to being a pussy. 20:20:27 elliott, no more cancelled than most of your code project s:P 20:20:30 projects * 20:20:31 YOU TOO COULD FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS 20:20:33 Presume why? 20:20:41 Perhaps I should warp out to (4000,4000) and check. 20:20:43 elliott, but it is suspended 20:20:53 elliott, simply because lava is no longer renewable 20:21:02 there is no renewable light source any more 20:21:08 sure, burning log 20:21:17 Is that where it was going to be? 20:21:18 but what about making it burn in the first place? 20:21:31 it was near 4000,4000 20:21:34 not at it 20:21:40 I don't know exact coords 20:21:46 just how to walk from 4000,4000 to get there 20:21:48 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:22:00 Someone tell me in which series Red Dwarf ceases to be worth watching. 20:22:50 Phantom_Hoover: The eighth series is meant to be a bit naff. 20:25:14 getting coal is easy <-- well, sgeo is right. some day you will exhaust all coal in the area near your base. This will however take a very long time. Probably months of mining in that area non-stop. 20:25:40 in practise I doubt it will be a problem unless you keep a word for that long time 20:25:44 and I doubt that about you 20:27:27 i've just finished 50x50x3 hall under the sea 20:27:37 -!- Cocytus has joined. 20:27:59 elliott, those cave sounds are nice. They remind me of a cross between myst and nwn somehow. 20:28:36 -!- Cocytus has left (?). 20:28:57 Phantom_Hoover: HOW GOES GRAVITY.LISP. 20:29:03 nooga: That's less than 128x128x128. 20:29:13 nooga: Wait, x3? As in, only 3 tall? 20:29:14 elliott, it doesn't go at all. 20:29:18 Phantom_Hoover: PAH 20:29:27 3 metres tall is plenty! 20:29:32 :P 20:29:39 nooga: Sgeo: Buy the damn game and do drudge work on the Cube. 20:30:05 If we have enough drudge workers, we can just mine it out by hand! 20:30:07 Sgeo: http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/ 20:30:18 nooga, glass? 20:30:28 nooga, if not, it isn't awesome enough for the roof 20:30:46 Phantom_Hoover: Say a miner can reach the bottom of any square of map in 100 seconds. 20:30:53 Phantom_Hoover: Say you have 10 people on the job. 20:31:08 Phantom_Hoover: There are 16,384 such squares to do. 20:31:10 What is the cube? 20:31:32 Vorpal: deep under the sea 20:31:40 j-invariant, elliott's slightly Freudian construction project. 20:31:41 around level 16 20:31:41 elliott, isn't that 45 hours per person? 20:31:43 Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr 45 and a half straight hours. 20:31:46 elliott, try again 20:31:57 elliott, what about 128 workers? 20:32:01 j-invariant: A 128 wide, 128 high, 128 deep cube in the ocean, made out of glass, lit by lava. 20:32:05 Phantom_Hoover: What's Freudian about it. 20:32:09 nooga, so not at the sea bottom? 20:32:14 no 20:32:16 elliott, COMPENSATING FOR SOMETHING? 20:32:21 nooga, not awesome enough :P 20:32:26 My genitalia are not cuboid. 20:32:31 nooga, everyone dug under the sea in terrains 20:32:48 Phantom_Hoover: But yeah, even with 10 people working on it constantly and several breakings of the laws of physics, it would take 45 hours to mine out the Cube. 20:32:52 What I'm saying is: TNT kit. 20:32:54 i hate minecraft 20:32:59 nooga: then why did you make it 20:33:15 my during the hours that took me to dig it 20:33:24 elliott, OK, but you're clearly compensating for the fact that you're 4 feet tall IRL. 20:33:28 my gf got really mad at me 20:33:38 and i didn't earn a penny 20:33:43 because coding is so boring 20:33:47 Phantom_Hoover: That is true. 20:34:12 j-invariant: MORE AWE AT THE CUBE PLZ 20:34:15 nooga, everyone dug under the sea in terrains ← terrains? 20:34:32 There should be underground biomes. 20:34:35 Phantom_Hoover, err, good questions 20:34:42 question* 20:34:59 elliott, there is that thing which fiddles with the terrain gen's internal parameters 20:34:59 Phantom_Hoover, I think I'm a bit pluralish today 20:35:14 (SSP only, though.) 20:35:18 Phantom_Hoover: BiomeTerrain or whatever? 20:35:24 No idea. 20:35:26 Phantom_Hoover: I've wanted to try that for a while now. It looks way better than Notch's generator. 20:35:35 Vorpal, everyone dug under the sea in terrain? 20:35:39 Phantom_Hoover: Generates much larger, smoother biomes and the like. Lots of tweakable parameters. 20:35:46 Phantom_Hoover, well it is /slightly/ better 20:35:55 Phantom_Hoover: That photo I linked of a highlands scene (saying it was a good argument for Better Grass) was made with it. 20:35:59 Phantom_Hoover, if you define terrain to "solid blocks" then it makes sense :P 20:36:08 elliott, I don't remember that. 20:36:16 It was literally days ago. 20:36:29 elliott, link to that photo? I don't remember seeing that photo 20:37:24 "I'm the sort of person who's done the Red Cross First Aid course twice and so I knew what to do and was almost immediately compressing his chest to the rhythm of the Bee Gees' Staying Alive with the phone operator counting along with me. No, I'm not being funny. The rhythm of that song is ideal for CPR." 20:37:33 Sgeo: Never perform CPR unless you do that. 20:38:08 elliott: sounds amazing 20:38:08 [[Alternatively, it's the same BMP as Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust" and Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall Part II".]] 20:38:20 j-invariant: yeah, we've cleared, like, 10 lines of sea :P 20:38:23 like moses, except really slow 20:38:26 10?? 20:38:29 Vorpal: You said it looked too flat, IIRC. 20:38:29 j-invariant: and excavation is... slow 20:38:30 j-invariant: yes, 10 20:38:32 I've done more than 10 20:38:34 j-invariant: as in, 10 lines of 126 long 20:38:40 j-invariant: about 10 deep each 20:38:51 j-invariant: i doubt you have 20:39:05 j-invariant: that's about 10*10*126 = 12600 blocks placed 20:39:08 to clear 20:39:13 very roughly 20:39:55 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 20:39:59 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 20:40:06 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 20:40:08 -!- sftp has quit (*.net *.split). 20:40:08 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 20:40:08 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 20:40:18 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 20:40:18 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 20:40:24 Phantom_Hoover: http://imgur.com/om0iL This is fully functional, with CraftBook. 20:40:24 Discuss superiority to Vorpal's gate. 20:40:55 Clearly superior. Also irrelevant if Vorpal doesn't have CraftBook. 20:41:45 It's on his test server and he was talking about craftbook before. 20:41:47 And how awesome it was. 20:41:50 So yes, he does. 20:42:43 -!- Zuu has joined. 20:42:43 -!- Vorpal has joined. 20:42:43 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 20:42:43 -!- sftp has joined. 20:42:43 -!- HackEgo has joined. 20:42:43 -!- EgoBot has joined. 20:42:43 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 20:42:43 -!- Ilari has joined. 20:43:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Excess Flood). 20:43:21 Phantom_Hoover: In which Notch actually responds to feedback: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezpw5/lots_of_new_info_including_cake/c1c7grn 20:43:22 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:43:43 :O 20:43:56 whe n you break a bit of glass you don't get it back :( 20:44:03 j-invariant: INDEED 20:44:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lsFN5DgoLc This is the silliest thing. 20:44:26 (Old, apparently.) 20:45:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv6GVDu46ls I hypothesise that sound mods are inherently hilarious. 20:45:20 Cow cow cow cow cow. 20:49:29 http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/drvm8/my_experiment_with_modifying_the_minecraft_sound/c12gnct ;_; 20:52:08 LOL 21:00:12 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:01:10 gcd(F_m,F_n)=F_{gcd(m,n)} 21:01:31 cool 21:01:35 now use that to compute gcd 21:03:12 hmm 21:03:23 fibonacci numbers are weird 21:09:04 -!- jix has joined. 21:11:50 elliott, is the server down? 21:12:18 hm up now anyway 21:12:18 -!- rom9com1 has left (?). 21:12:46 ineiros, are you skyping? 21:18:08 -!- calamari has joined. 21:20:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:27:15 ineiros, what the hell are you doing? 21:35:08 He's toying with you. 21:35:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:46:01 Phantom_Hoover: ? 21:46:16 With Vorpal. 21:47:00 Phantom_Hoover, is that supposed to be funny? It isn't really. 21:47:48 Well, now you've made it even *less* funny. 21:48:03 Phantom_Hoover, your own fault for not making it funny to begin with 21:49:04 Phantom_Hoover, besides movecraft got updated. Now doors are supposed to work (nothing done on chests yet though) 21:49:14 Phantom_Hoover, also submarines 21:49:23 j-invariant: help me design my language :P 21:49:34 what's this?? 21:49:54 j-invariant: a language! btw have you read any more of the axiom info? 21:50:02 eyah a little 21:50:20 j-invariant: is it close to what you were thinking of? 21:50:27 no 21:50:33 j-invariant: no 21:50:33 ? 21:50:51 I can learn form it 21:51:07 j-invariant: isn't it a dependent symbolic CAS? :P i mean that's my impression of it 22:01:03 j-invariant: i'm actually curious 22:01:18 elliott: youo're right 22:01:27 j-invariant: what does your design have different to axiom? :) 22:04:38 ugh i have to rename some of my methods... 22:04:51 j-invariant: can you fork ghc and add ml-style modules please, then i would always use haskell 22:05:59 elliott: Yeah I think I would change a bit moore than that :P 22:06:23 j-invariant: Well ... ML modules lets you chuck out typeclasses :P 22:06:44 Sort of. 22:08:45 elliott: yeah, something that subsumes GADTs, Typeclasses and Modules 22:08:58 j-invariant: you mean like dependent records? :P 22:09:23 not sure 22:09:33 j-invariant: sure 22:10:00 j-invariant: dependent records do powerful ML-style modules; powerful ML-style modules do typeclasses with, like, one bit of magic; and dependent inductive types are of course basically GADTs 22:10:33 j-invariant: (the one bit of magic I think is this: a module signature can specify one of its exported values is "magical"; whenever a value of that type is needed as an implicit module parameter (a notion added just for this), that value is used) 22:10:56 j-invariant: for instance, the module implementing integers would have a magical value of type Ring Z 22:11:02 and then some function might be like 22:11:27 lolRingFunction : forall T, [Ring T] -> ... 22:11:33 where [] means "magic module param" 22:11:35 then 22:11:38 lolRingFunction (some Z) 22:11:42 would auto-specify that (Ring Z) value 22:11:46 elliott: hey what about 22:11:53 lolRingFunction : Ring T, ... 22:11:54 of course having two magical values of the same type in your current module scope is verboten 22:12:03 use typeclasses *as* quantifiers 22:12:04 j-invariant: you mean as the syntax? 22:12:08 that's a nice idea 22:12:14 would keep the verbosity down 22:12:24 j-invariant: maybe something like "the" though 22:12:28 lolRingFunction : the Ring T, ... 22:15:18 j-invariant: oh god, I have created an image that could give Douglas Hofstadter an aneurysm 22:15:42 a basilisk image? 22:15:49 yes, but Hofstadter-only 22:15:54 behold 22:15:54 http://i.imgur.com/VqcIS.png 22:15:55 RECURSION 22:15:59 i hear it blows his mind 22:16:08 too bad i'm not him 22:16:12 i like being blown 22:16:16 hehe 22:16:33 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:16:33 agh, tk 22:16:41 obviously the egytions understood recursion 22:16:53 egytions :D 22:17:03 I'm making a pyramid in minecraft 22:17:12 it's glass on the inside but sand on the outside 22:17:14 note to self, add a separate background colour for selected vs. active... hard to remove those lists without knowing what you have selected 22:18:41 editing these nested expressions is slow :D 22:18:53 j-invariant: nice 22:19:54 i would like to see an upside-down floating sand pyramid in minecraft 22:20:08 it's not upside down :( 22:24:50 oklopol: is "foo ~ {}" valid Clue? 22:25:24 -!- hiato has joined. 22:26:14 i would like to see an upside-down floating sand pyramid in minecraft <-- possible with torches 22:26:27 quintopia, if it floats just above a torch that is 22:26:36 quintopia, why not make one yourself? 22:27:50 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:27:54 someday 22:28:20 quintopia: sometime 22:28:35 elliott, somewhere 22:29:17 (wait, is none else going to continue this chain?) 22:29:21 (bbl) 22:37:28 oklopol: so hey, cled is ugly as fuck :D 22:40:23 j-invariant: http://i.imgur.com/CP1vV.png can you figure out what's going on here :D 22:40:26 even i have troubles 22:41:29 I don't know what [] does.. looks nice though :D 22:43:40 j-invariant: it's just a list 22:43:50 j-invariant: ([] (1) (2) (3)) there is [1 2 3] 22:44:18 j-invariant: basically, that screenshot is the really ugly representation of {. 3 [7 44 1] -> [[1] 3 [7 44]] } ... with some highlighting oddities 22:44:32 j-invariant: i think i'm starting to see why this kind of editing is unpopular 22:44:33 what is cled? some derivative of clue? 22:45:10 quintopia: cled is my semantic AST editor for clue ... it happened after i wanted to write a clue-mode for emacs 22:45:15 and it's became, well, this monstrosity 22:45:18 *become, 22:45:26 time to kill it dead? 22:45:28 453 lines of folly and counting 22:45:37 quintopia: nO 22:45:38 *NO 22:45:41 it's the platonically perfect clue editor 22:45:43 it just sucks, is all 22:45:51 but i'm gonna develop it to completion anyway :D 22:45:58 good 22:46:06 only because clue sucks and not because there's anything wrong with the editor, yes? 22:46:21 quintopia: no, clue is amazing 22:46:23 my editor sucks and ROCKS! 22:46:27 and sucks 22:47:03 ehird man speak with forked tongue. need whiskey and migraine pill for good medicine. 22:47:14 Someone tell me which books of Known Space are any good. 22:47:16 concur 22:47:43 Someone point me to a list of the reasons X sucks. Someone tell me what subset of Y is good. 22:47:45 Phantom_Hoover: * 22:47:53 All of them? 22:48:16 What about the infamous third book in the Ringworld series? 22:48:17 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:48:29 http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717 Nice. 22:48:30 Someone point me to a list of the reasons X sucks. Someone tell me what subset of Y is good. ← BLATANT LIES 22:48:39 Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean, "what about it"? 22:48:40 FastRender: more efficient chunk queue processing. 22:48:40 UniText: a completely rewritten text renderer. It's faster and supports Unicode, although the Unicode font files are not included with this release. 22:48:40 Fewer glClears: erasing the entire screen is expensive. This mod avoids it when possible. 22:48:42 Better chunk drawing code: Removing a few useless transforms from the chunk rendering code lets all visible chunks be drawn in a straightforward manner. 22:48:47 I like this Scaevolus guy. 22:49:09 Phantom_Hoover: INCIDENTALLY, can you buy me a new GPU? 22:49:16 I plan to configure Minecraft to be utterly insane soon. 22:49:18 pikhq_, i.e. it's infamous for being a perfect instance of quality being inversely proportional to place in the series? 22:49:59 An HD texture pack if I find one I like, far distance, fancy rendering, Better Light, that shader mod with depth of field, perhaps also with that lighting shader if I can find it and make it work together... 22:50:05 Mipmapping if it helps. 22:50:53 hah 22:50:55 Phantom_Hoover: I don't recall it being bad, though. 22:50:58 my 50x50 trap works 22:51:09 Definitely not as good as the first, mind. 22:51:31 i've get approx 24 sulfur in 15 min 22:51:59 nooga: lol noob 22:52:18 ??? 22:52:24 nooga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiJh5fpWPAo 22:52:26 I have 1 sulfer after 2 weeks playing 22:52:33 j-invariant: kill creepers 22:52:37 and build a mob trap 22:52:41 again, read the wiki :P 22:53:11 nooga: build that and then come back 22:53:15 what the hell is happening in that video! LOL 22:53:29 oh 22:53:37 the reason they die is because of falling from such a height 22:53:44 yes 22:53:48 j-invariant: watch the rest of it :) 22:53:49 ummm.... that must have taken a while to build 22:53:54 j-invariant: basically: they don't spawn on steps 22:53:58 so the ground below is safe 22:54:02 and then the huge dome catches them 22:54:04 and the only way is down 22:54:09 so they walk down and then fall inside 22:54:17 resulting in loot 22:54:20 that's crazy wtf 22:54:29 how the hell did he have the patience to build it 22:54:29 since they're spawning all the time at night, they fall down at a crazy rate :) 22:54:30 well 22:54:31 er 22:54:33 they don't walk down 22:54:35 there's water 22:54:37 obviously 22:54:39 to carry them 22:54:41 j-invariant: who knows :D 22:54:55 tl;dr mobs spawn in big water slide all night, ride uncontrollably, fall down, die, drop loot. 22:55:50 j-invariant: building mob traps is not so hard though 22:56:07 j-invariant: basically, you want an easily steppable-upon bit of water that mobs will go into, which then leads down to 22:56:08 C C 22:56:09 elliott: @ this clip... i thought that mobs don't spawn on water 22:56:11 where space is nothing 22:56:15 and the two Cs are catcuses 22:56:21 nooga: dunno... i think they do 22:56:30 nooga: but besides, there's those little sticky out bits of cobbles fro them to spawn on anyway 22:56:31 *for 22:56:35 j-invariant: this crushes the mobs 22:56:39 j-invariant: and they'll drop loot into the stream 22:56:43 j-invariant: which you then route into your base 22:56:47 elliott, FWIW, that Optimine thing has mucked up Better Light. 22:56:54 Phantom_Hoover: you apply better light afterwards 22:56:57 Phantom_Hoover: not before 22:57:04 j-invariant: so basically mobs will keep walking in, getting crushed by the cactus, and their loot will float into a pool in your base 22:57:12 j-invariant: that won't be hugely fast, but it'll be pretty good 22:58:05 j-invariant: oh and 22:58:14 j-invariant: look for natural cobblestone while mining, and also mossy cobblestone 22:58:19 j-invariant: it'll be a dungeon 22:58:22 oh ok 22:58:22 j-invariant: with a mob spawner inside 22:58:31 j-invariant: now consider: dig out the floor beneath that mob spawner 22:58:45 j-invariant: so much that they die of fall damage 22:58:47 and route a path in 22:58:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8xs53VmFjc neat 22:58:53 j-invariant: mob spawners only spawn one type of monster 22:58:54 but.. 22:59:09 [[...these people are trying to make money from an idea that does not belong to them.]] — An Idiot on the MC boards. 22:59:21 j-invariant: e.g. if it's a spider spawner 22:59:24 j-invariant: you could get shitloads of string 23:01:02 j-invariant: that door machine is hilarious 23:01:17 j-invariant: if you tab away it sounds like venetian snares... sorta 23:08:59 haha, nice video 23:13:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:14:28 j-invariant: btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/evwk8/does_anyone_know_how_to_make_a_very_simple_but/ 23:14:31 j-invariant: stuff about mob traps 23:15:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:20:04 guide to minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/i1YWC.png 23:25:33 Is Notch going to remove indefinitely burning logs? 23:25:50 The probability of that is somewhere in the region of 0. 23:25:58 Why? 23:26:19 Because there's something like seventeen hundred billion fireplaces, and also, very little reason to fix it :P 23:27:36 -!- marcules has quit (Quit: -). 23:27:50 nooga: pics of your trap? 23:27:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:29:02 elliott, what are your thoughts on Clean? 23:29:32 an interesting curiosity and — mere curiosity. uniqueness typing is interesting. 23:29:37 learn haskell instead. 23:29:54 also clean has some REALLY weird bits 23:29:54 like 23:29:58 you write (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 23:29:58 as 23:30:01 (a -> b) [a] -> [b] 23:30:02 why??? 23:30:08 that doesn't even make any sense and takes special casing 23:30:17 elliott, are Clean functions curried? 23:30:22 yes 23:30:31 also (x:xs) is [x:xs], which, again, means that a single list with the single element (x:xs) is [[x:xs]]... which is just plain confusing and stupid 23:30:36 also infix o weird me out 23:30:40 but these are all syntactical differences. 23:32:30 Maybe uniqueness typing is what will bring me back into the purely functional world 23:32:34 yea that's stupid 23:32:37 [Or maybe I'll be bored to tears] 23:32:51 Sgeo: stop talking in trivial lists. 23:33:31 elliott: I trapped some cows in a cave but they disappeared :( 23:33:37 i kind of feel embarrassed for Sgeo on behalf of... everyone 23:33:38 j-invariant: whut 23:33:39 j-invariant: howso 23:33:41 is it not possible to make a farm? 23:33:53 I just dug this small cave into a hill and trapped the cows in there 23:34:03 j-invariant: Of course it is: http://imgur.com/a/pt8v5 23:34:05 elliott, what cheater99 said was a joke, afaict. 23:34:10 I suppose they might die in low light. 23:34:12 I think 23:34:13 Sgeo: And? 23:34:31 hahaha I need one of these 23:34:37 elliott: I wonder why they disappeared 23:34:59 j-invariant: try building a small but ~5 deep pit instead 23:35:03 and put a torch on the walls 23:35:04 get them in there and see 23:35:14 j-invariant: if you walked too far away i guess they could disappear... but you'd have to walk a few chunks 23:35:16 so probably not 23:35:18 *quite a few 23:35:21 oh :( 23:35:34 elliott: yeah I roam very far so that might not be worth doing then 23:35:38 j-invariant: lol no 23:35:40 j-invariant: i doubt it 23:35:48 j-invariant: it's like 16 chunks 23:35:54 so like 23:35:57 walking 256 away maybe 23:36:01 i guess it's easy but 23:36:11 j-invariant: i think i'm wrong 23:36:54 "Mobs spawn no closer than 24 blocks and disappear if they are more than 4 chunks away from the player." 23:36:55 j-elliott: why not just play farmville? 23:37:00 j-invariant: ok if you walked far away. 23:37:07 cheater99: because minecraft is more than farming? :P 23:37:12 j-invariant: build a mob trap :D 23:37:44 im going to sleep ;) 23:37:46 yes, use minecraft to make mafiaville or whatever they call it 23:37:54 gangstaville? 23:38:04 I finished building a pyramid though 23:38:09 j-invariant: how big? 23:38:24 it's only like 6 high 23:38:52 j-invariant: really? that shouldn't have took that long to build... unless it has like a flat top and is really wide 23:38:57 screenshot? 23:39:10 no it's just a tiny pyramid 23:39:12 you should now recreate von dniken's mythology around it 23:39:27 j-invariant: how long did it take to build? 23:39:43 elliott: dunno I did other stuff in between 23:39:51 hehe 23:40:04 is there like 23:40:08 automation for minecraft? 23:40:30 cheater99: interesting 23:40:34 cheater99: there's redstone. 23:40:47 bluestone would let you build a hideously complex autominer but it doesn't exist and never will >:) 23:41:08 minecraft just sounds real fucking boring to me in that you have to sit around clicking stuff 23:41:28 it's like killing wild pigs in a forrest in wow 23:41:28 -!- hiato has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:41:44 1 experience point per click or something equally dumb 23:41:51 cheater99: umm what 23:41:53 (not that i ever played wow, but you know what i mean) 23:41:55 you don't kill pigs generally 23:41:56 oh 23:42:08 well er no because in MC most of the time is spent doing shit you want 23:42:10 elliott: yeah, but that's what it feels like 23:42:11 i.e. building shit 23:42:14 no it doesn't 23:42:17 you've clearly never played 23:42:21 yeah 23:42:28 but i've seen many vids now 23:42:36 % of people who haven't played minecraft and think it's probably lame: 99 23:42:44 % of people who have played minecraft and think it's lame: much less 23:42:53 nobody cares, honestly. 23:43:06 generally in the family of minecraft-likes you'd expect a scripted way of doing things in accelerated time, or at least without user interaction 23:43:14 do you not think everyone has already heard "OMG IT SOUNDS BORING AND LAME" 100 times before 23:43:34 i'm not trying to change your mind or anything 23:43:35 DURP DURP MY INFORMED OPINION IS THAT IT'S LAME 23:43:42 or like "tell you it's lame" 23:43:44 Gregor: OH MAN THAT'S NOVEL 23:43:52 I mean literally lame though. 23:43:56 It has a limp. 23:43:57 cheater99: in response: no, automating such things would not make the game more fun. 23:44:04 Gregor: So THAT'S what the view bobbing is. 23:44:04 i'm just expressing what my impression is and wondering why you guys think different 23:44:06 that's all 23:44:14 cheater99: 'cuz it's fun 23:44:19 ya k 23:44:24 no reason to get upset there 23:44:28 i'm not upset 23:44:41 I'M NOT UPSET OK????????? 23:44:43 :p 23:44:52 ah, right, everyone who disagrees with you is upset 23:45:00 no, i'm just joking around 23:45:28 mining can be fun enough because you find caverns and dungeons, exploring caves is fun and often screenshot-worthy, exploring terrain is fun and often leads to good locations for build projects, building structures are fun, building houses is fun, building machines with redstone is fun, fighting mobs is... uh... terrifying 23:45:32 so 23:45:33 so terrifying 23:45:41 ya i can see exploring mines is fun 23:46:02 and so can exploring terrain be 23:46:06 exploring mines? you build mines, you mean caverns :P 23:46:10 oh yes 23:46:14 or other people's mines 23:46:28 also fun is building a forest-top village 23:46:31 but like.. i'm surprised there aren't scripts for say building houses or pools 23:46:31 Did I also mention that people who play Minecraft are torps and hurpadurp? 23:46:38 that just feels so droll tbh 23:47:18 what's a torp? 23:47:22 is that like a tarp? 23:48:28 Pfff 23:48:31 Such a torp question to ask. 23:48:36 HORP TORP 23:49:14 -!- drakhan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:49:28 cheater99: man why aren't there machines that automate pushing pieces of lego together 23:49:38 that just feels so droll tbh 23:50:26 there are 23:50:32 cheater99: would you use them 23:50:42 j-invariant: THAT SLEEP THING IS WORKING WELL FOR YOU HUH 23:50:46 no i would just use big pieces 23:50:54 hehe 23:51:06 cheater99: ahh, so you'd rather play MINECRAFT: FOR KIDS! 23:51:16 Roblox? 23:51:19 i'd play minecraft duplo 23:51:22 minecraft is for kids X) 23:51:28 Oh, that reminds me, I want to try Roblox >.> 23:51:28 with BIG pieces 23:51:47 designed for 1-3 years of age. 23:52:08 since, like, i love to remit like that. 23:52:27 you keep using that word etc. 23:53:55 so my superdrive STILL isn't here, what is this INSOLENCE 23:54:23 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:55:26 you have to make sure the infidels pay with their lives 23:55:50 elliott: what word? 23:56:39 ? 23:56:44 remit 23:57:21 i do? 23:57:35 anyways, some cool tricks here: http://blog.ksplice.com/2011/01/solving-problems-with-proc/ 23:57:37 no, but i do not think it means what you think it means. 23:58:25 a remission is when you go back 23:58:28 "A UNIX process refers to its open files using integers called file descriptors. When we say "standard input", we really mean "file descriptor 0". So we can use /proc/self/fd/0 as an explicit name for standard input:" 23:58:29 lolfail 23:58:30 -!- hiato has joined. 23:58:31 /dev/fd/0 23:58:53 cheater99: that's irrelevant, the fact is that afaik nobody uses "remit" like that 23:59:01 unless you, like, got cancer at the age of 3 and still have it 23:59:05 "I'm remitting back to BEFORE" 23:59:22 "Good news! I'm in remission!" "That's great!" "Yes, I love being three years old!" 23:59:25 nope, still not working 23:59:27 yeah but there's a technique in psychology called remission 23:59:29 isn't there? 23:59:44 isn't it regression you are thinking of 2011-01-12: 00:00:00 it just might be 00:00:36 it's so good to have you around 00:00:49 oklopol is a plokloo 00:00:59 you could totally be a good subordinate neural network for some things 00:01:16 i should stuff your brain in a jar when you don't need it anymore 00:01:36 i doubt that you will be in much of a position to do that at that time 00:01:48 how so? 00:02:07 well i assume you mean when i die. 00:02:13 and i *expect* you'll die before me 00:02:30 i mean, let's say you suddenly find yourself with vital organs failing surprisingly, as if someone were blasting surgically applied rays of microwaves into your body 00:02:40 that would be quite unfortunate, yes 00:02:50 i rather think my brain would take some damage 00:02:58 let's say it's a cabal of killer ninja-robot-rabbits 00:03:32 they're real precise. 00:03:40 i rather meant from the trauma 00:04:16 well, we'd need to make the decision to jar you quick then 00:04:57 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:05:57 a project to replace brains with something less volatile than a foie gras could be real fun 00:06:21 even if, say, replicating the function of a neuron would take a supercomputer. 00:07:05 um i find that unlikely. 00:07:37 i find someone sitting down and writing GHC unlikely 00:08:08 what's that got to do with anything 00:08:08 AND YET!!!!!!!!!!! 00:08:19 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:08:20 "someone" didn't, tons of people did it over the course of years 00:08:28 well, it's as high on my unlikelihood scale 00:08:28 also, that's an argument /for/ technology being able to do things, not for it not being able to 00:08:38 ghc isn't _that_ advanced.. 00:08:40 *... 00:10:06 still, looking back, in the 70s when most people were just working with perforated tape 00:10:19 what ghc is now seemed like sci-fi 00:10:21 i find it incredibly unlikely that replicating the function of a neuron would take a supercomputer 00:10:22 is what i'm saying 00:10:30 oh ok 00:10:32 and, uh, not really, it's just a compiler ... 00:10:35 albeit a good one 00:10:47 cheater99: ML came out in the early 70s 00:10:55 Haskell isn't much of a leap 00:11:05 yeah i know 00:11:22 but still, the general population was doing that perforated cards stuff 00:11:24 "type inference? what's a type? is that like a collection of holes in a von neumann machine?" 00:11:59 and what i'm saying is i guess we're to neuroscience what perforated card users were to computer science back then 00:12:02 Does SML not have the +. nonsense of OCaml? 00:12:18 what is +. nonsense? 00:12:31 the worst thing about haskell for me is the indentation nonsense 00:12:34 it's very nonsensical. 00:13:09 The thing that functions or whatever can't operate, say, on both ints and floats 00:13:22 oh 00:13:28 eek. 00:13:44 cheater99? 00:13:55 you can write haskell with brackets and semicolons if you want to 00:14:08 most people just prefer to reduce visual clutter 00:14:41 i'm talking indentation not braces 00:14:55 python doesn't have braces or semicolons but it has a nice indent style 00:15:05 that's what I'm saying 00:15:08 -!- SimonRC has joined. 00:15:10 haskell doesn't 00:15:13 with braces and semicolons, you can indent as you choose 00:15:13 that's what i'm saying 00:15:22 yeah, no, fuck that 00:15:24 i don't want that either 00:15:37 you can also indent as you choose with regular haskell and no braces and semicolons 00:15:44 I don't really understand what you mean 00:15:51 it's like i'm saying "i don't like having diarrhea" and you say "cut off your arm instead" 00:15:51 it's strictly more flexible than python's rules 00:16:20 i somehow find that's not really the case 00:16:26 can you give examples? 00:16:30 also i see a lot of mutilated code 00:16:42 no, but there were some problems i have indeed run into 00:16:49 like what? 00:16:50 sadly i can't bring them up 00:17:02 when i said i can't give examples i really meant it :p 00:17:11 oh, that's a good stance 00:17:14 it sucks, but I can't remember why 00:17:22 copumpkin: cheater99 is a troll, ignore him :) 00:17:25 oh okay 00:17:32 coppro: elliott is a troll, just ignore him :) 00:17:41 coppro is already ignoring me 00:17:44 coppro already does 00:17:57 just reinforcing that state then 00:18:51 copumpkin: next time i run into something i'll let you know (if i can remember at all that you were being all gung-ho about it) 00:18:53 this channel is such a happy family 00:19:01 erm there was someone being gung-ho here but it wasn't copumpkin 00:19:02 everyone ignores everyone 00:19:22 we're ending up like the eastenders. 00:19:33 constant haggle just to make do :D 00:19:39 ...nobody should ever analogise wi- i give up i'm just going to go back to logreading 00:19:43 NOBODY EVER ARGUES IN MY PEACEFUL LOGS 00:19:56 :D 00:19:56 read oklopol talk about topology 00:19:59 cheater99: well, let me just put it this way: python requires you to in/outdent by a specific amount each time. Haskell just looks for things that are indented the same depth and considers those to be at the same level. So you can indent haskell like python and have it behave as you'd expect 00:19:59 so relaxing 00:20:25 elliott: where is he talking about topology? 00:20:28 however, most code in haskell doesn't get very deeply indented 00:20:32 um pick a day, any day 00:20:44 elliott: give me something to search buffer for 00:20:48 i should try writing a literate program in haskell sometime, it'd be fun 00:20:51 cheater99: grep oklopol 10* 00:21:15 i only have this xchat buffer, i can search for exact strings 00:21:26 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:21:26 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:21:45 i don't have logs, what are logs, this is some sort of high-fly technology you're talking about. what's magnetic storage? 00:21:49 cheater99: um oklopol hasn't talked about topology today 00:21:57 hg clone http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ esotericlogs 00:21:59 and pick dates at random 00:22:11 is there a bzr interface? 00:22:25 it's just an easy way to get incremental updates to http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ ... 00:22:31 it's not like you're going to be committing typofixes 00:22:37 just hg pull; hg update every few days 00:22:41 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 00:22:52 i'll cron it to every 30 seconds 00:23:03 Gregor put it in the topic under the assumption that people wouldn't rape his bandwidth 00:23:07 so, uh, don't 00:23:17 :D 00:23:38 21:09:04 actually 00:23:38 21:09:06 you're right 00:23:38 21:09:13 for this to be a great tv show 00:23:39 21:09:22 we need like a really stupid fbi guy 00:23:41 but pulling is very low-bandwidth, isn't it? 00:23:41 21:09:27 who asks stupid questions 00:23:43 21:09:46 "so you're saying a locally connected spaces is like a rabbit that sticks its head into a bush when it gets scared?" 00:23:45 oklopol: who let you be so awesome 00:23:50 cheater99: it's also non-zero-bandwidth 00:23:51 -!- Ilari has joined. 00:24:22 hahah 00:24:28 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:24:38 what about the converse 00:24:43 CSI:torus 00:25:03 the villain is an ant. 00:25:20 21:18:06 hmm 00:25:20 21:18:19 that's true for all partitions gotten this way? 00:25:20 21:18:33 is that obvious again... 00:25:22 21:19:03 well of course it is 00:25:24 21:19:06 by definition of touch 00:25:26 21:19:29 wait 00:25:28 21:19:42 what's the definition of touch? 00:25:30 21:19:43 :D 00:25:31 cheater99: Pulling is relatively low bandwidth, but it's a big enough archive that if a ton of people downloaded it, it would add up *shrugs* 00:25:36 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 00:25:42 i'm gonna pull it every second 00:25:54 Gregor: ya 00:26:10 Gregor: i'm just gonna do what elliott suggests, you can blame him by proxy 00:26:15 no wait 00:26:17 every picosecond 00:26:22 FEMTOSECOND PULLS 00:26:27 cheater99: btw it only updates every day 00:26:29 FEMTOSECOND 00:26:30 i think you'd need RTLinux for picoseconds 00:26:59 you know, tcp windowing gets interesting once you get to near-light speeds 00:27:08 :D 00:27:28 if your requests can go out faster than they can traverse the cable 00:27:59 just replace all hlt instructions in the kernel with hg pull code 00:28:01 i guess that's been done with TCP/CP though 00:28:01 cheater99, does that ever happen though? 00:28:10 yes, in TCP/CP 00:28:15 cheater99, CP? 00:28:17 i love having two views of a buffer open at once, helps me forget my screen is tiny 00:28:25 elliott: you tell him 00:28:30 who 00:28:35 vorpy 00:28:50 i thought you'd know what TCP over Carrier Pidgeon was 00:28:55 oh that 00:28:58 yes I know that 00:29:01 not the abbrev though 00:29:18 i thought you meant pigeons travelled at near light speed there 00:29:20 yeah, i just made it up to sound mysterious 00:29:27 which i approv eof 00:29:27 elliott: WAIT A SECOND THERE 00:29:29 *approve of 00:29:30 THEY DON'T ??????????????? 00:29:32 maybe they do in a vacuum 00:29:37 a frictionless plane 00:29:37 cheater99, they should 00:29:40 THAT TOTALLY CHANGES EVERYTHING 00:29:55 ziggy, what probabilities are we looking at right now?? 00:30:03 elliott, yes they do but um they are also turned into novergian blues 00:30:18 (that is plural of blue, not the word "blues") 00:30:43 21:40:00 how are they not linear 00:30:43 21:40:08 hmm 00:30:43 21:40:28 i know too little about this stuff 00:30:44 21:40:38 MUST 00:30:46 21:40:39 KNOW 00:30:48 21:40:40 EVERYTHING 00:31:04 elliott, did he say those last lines? 00:31:15 or did you add them? 00:31:29 you'll never know. the history is blurry at that point 00:31:36 the path of time has been changed forever 00:31:39 cheater99, I could grep logs 00:31:42 but it is some work 00:31:44 yeah nobody can check the logs 00:31:46 i committed and pushed 00:31:50 GUESS GREGOR DIDN'T THINK OF THAT EH 00:31:55 GUESS NOT 00:31:56 elliott, I have my local clog ones :P 00:32:01 omg what if he's secretly censoring things in the weekly checkouts 00:32:04 Gregor: confirm/deny 00:32:20 elliott: if we implemented brain as a quantum computer, could this mean it would be agnostic of time? 00:32:25 what 00:32:32 because of quantum tangling across time 00:32:32 what indeed 00:32:54 you mean entanglement? 00:33:17 synonyms 00:33:28 cheater99, tangling sounds so everyday 00:33:47 elliott: Daily, and I censor them directly out of your mind, first. 00:33:52 entanglement sounds so popular science 00:34:02 Gregor: oh that's what that pleasingly calm and relaxing sensation is 00:34:09 cheater99, or actual real science 00:34:15 yes 00:34:19 ABOLISH REAL SCIENCE 00:34:37 science is not hipster 00:34:39 let's only talk about ufos and lsd-philosophy! 00:34:46 and 2012? 00:34:55 and dragons 00:35:02 yes, dragons! 00:35:06 i heard someone say 2012 will not even happen in 2012 00:35:15 IDEA FOR WORST MOVIE EVER: A docudrama/romantic comedy about a quantum scientist and his ENTANGLEMENT with some fru-fru hippy girl that doesn't believe in science. 00:35:16 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:35:20 it might happen later. 00:35:59 what was that movie about the great scientist and his son 00:36:00 1991260 | 2010-12-14 06:40:40 | oklofok | | | 0 | EVERYTHING 00:36:02 yep he said it 00:36:12 Gregor: That is ... yes. 00:36:13 the guy builds starships and his son goes to south africa and builds canoes 00:36:32 Gregor: ALSO CANDIDATE FOR: Strangest sex scenes in a movie. 00:36:35 Gregor, haha 00:36:42 elliott, stranglet! 00:36:42 Gregor: I'm assuming you mean: literal entanglement. 00:36:52 elliott, I read it as stranglet sex scenes 00:36:52 As in, his body is literally quantumly entangled with hers. Permanently. Somehow. 00:36:56 elliott, :D 00:36:59 Please tell me this is the case. 00:37:00 elliott: Literal QUANTUM entanglement, that leads to romantic entanglement! 00:37:10 "Our spin, it's the same!" 00:37:21 OMG 00:37:23 Gregor: "You're...inside me..." "THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!" 00:37:26 finally that song makes sense 00:37:33 Gregor: "It's not rape if physics dictates!" 00:37:35 you spin me right round baby right round 00:37:48 Gregor: AM I: (A) BEST PERSON (B) HORRIBLE PERSON (NOT B)? 00:38:00 like a [something something] right round round round 00:38:13 *record baby 00:38:14 elliott: All of the above? :P 00:38:16 you spin me right round baby right round, like a quantum entangled device right round round round 00:38:22 Gregor: (C) ALL OF THE BELOW 00:38:52 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:39:33 Apparently Dock stopped being the Minecraft artist because: 00:39:39 "I kept on running into technical problems with the export process, and Markus wasn’t used to having to wait for art assets." 00:39:45 Notch: I REQUIRE ART NOW 00:40:07 ./08.08.22:14:18:36 Haskell is compiled from .hs-files which means HOMO SEXUAL this could be funny. 00:40:18 joke beginning 00:40:45 Hah... Somebody's explanation of Gulf War Syndrome: It was the diet sodas troops drank... 00:41:06 first thing oklopol said: 00:41:07 00:39:12 has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck? 00:41:22 how embarrassing 00:41:35 isn't brainfuck basically a quicksort algorithm 00:41:43 06.12.20:16:54:40 a.split("") is illegal? how to parse a string to a list of letters? :DD then i might be able to carry on :) 00:41:43 it sorts out people who are bored enough to learn it 00:41:46 06.12.20:16:56:20 haha i can't do an assignment in a lambda? :D or is there a way? 00:41:54 oklopol: you were a bad person 00:42:33 06.12.26:12:59:06 i love brainfuck, yeah, you gotta 00:42:56 A string already is a list of characters 00:43:00 [in Python] 00:43:00 no it isn't 00:43:03 that is false 00:43:15 Erm, oh right 00:43:29 It's iterable though, so usable in most such contexts 00:43:31 for char in string: print char 00:43:35 And list(somestring) should work 00:43:40 I think 00:43:49 you can't modify a string in place in python iirc 00:43:49 yes. 00:43:55 as in mystr[4] = 'a'; 00:43:57 or such 00:44:14 TypeError: 'str' object does not support item assignment 00:44:19 cheater99, indeed 00:44:20 yes 00:44:21 you can 00:44:22 oh wiat no 00:44:24 *wait 00:44:25 you can't 00:44:26 right 00:44:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 00:44:28 because python is stupid 00:44:30 elliott, as usual I'm right :P 00:44:33 and inconsistent 00:44:33 and shit 00:44:43 elliott, it needs to be hashable or something iirc 00:44:48 (stupid stupid) 00:45:19 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:45:39 variables in python are immutable. 00:45:45 um, i've done a very disturbing discovery 00:45:59 $ grep -ir \\\ . | wc -l 00:46:01 2803 00:46:03 $ grep -r \\\ . | wc -l 00:46:05 69 00:46:07 :|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 00:46:12 what the fuck is that <> shit for 00:46:18 this is very serious 00:46:25 it's word-boundary 00:46:29 \b 00:46:30 noob 00:46:35 \bphp\b 00:46:37 lol elliott doesn't know regex 00:46:43 i know what it is 00:46:44 but why are you using it 00:46:47 it requires an extra escape 00:46:52 it is pretty awesome 00:46:56 ofc why you aren't just 'quoting' it is another mystery 00:46:59 quintopia: \b is the same 00:47:04 and requires one less escape the way cheater00 did it 00:47:13 yes 00:47:30 but he is an idiot for not quoting 00:47:37 \b is not the same in that it is not directional. 00:47:43 and picking on idiots is politically incorrect 00:47:43 quintopia: why would i quote? 00:47:47 so i'll remain silent 00:48:04 because wasting time figuring out how to escape in both the shell and regexps is a waste of brain? 00:48:17 "oh i need to escape this shell metachar, \, oh i need to escape this regexp metachar, \\, oh but it's a shell metachar too, \\\" 00:48:18 i waste time doing that? 00:48:25 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:48:26 yes. 00:48:28 i just bash the \ button. 00:48:34 randomly it works or doesn't :D 00:48:34 very reliable. 00:49:58 $ grep -ir \\\ . | wc -l 00:49:59 3050 00:50:07 http://images.apple.com/v20110110174859/startpage/images/store_ipodtouch_20100927.png look at that personal engraving 00:50:15 xD 00:50:19 we should have like a bar chart for each language mentioned on 99bottles and in the wiki 00:50:21 apple think everyone is a douchebag 00:50:29 cheater00: botte will have statistics. 00:51:03 does botte exist in [t=now, t=now+1year] ? 00:51:23 now+1 year, most likely yes 00:51:34 i still need to figure how to address some infinity lines quickly though 00:51:46 well 00:51:49 2072804 lines 00:52:03 I need basically arbitrary (non-backtracking) regexp search on that. 00:52:07 cron 00:52:14 that doesn't solve the problem of _how_ to index it. 00:52:24 I can use an efficient regexp lib like Russ Cox's RE2 to grep ... but I don't know if it will be efficient. 00:52:26 just grep | wc -l every language name 00:52:35 um botte has far more advanced needs than just that 00:52:53 scope creep 00:53:00 it's an irc bot 00:53:05 if i didn't scope creep, it'd be 32583495 bots 00:53:08 like all bots 00:53:13 it's not something i've just made up now anyway... 00:53:19 $ time grep 'hello' big >/dev/null 00:53:19 real0m0.203s 00:53:20 oh that's fast enough 00:53:23 (big is "cat *.*.*") 00:53:38 is it something you've made up five minutes ago? 00:53:43 no 00:53:48 ok then 00:53:59 heh grep -i is significantly slower i think 00:54:04 yes 00:54:06 $ time (grep -i clue big | wc -l) 00:54:06 1715 00:54:07 real0m4.860s 00:54:15 still 00:54:18 RE2 powers Google Code Search 00:54:22 probably faster than grep i'd wager 00:54:29 hence you always have a collation-normalize copy 00:54:30 d 00:54:52 i.e. strtoupper everything 00:55:01 so that EVERYONE IS SHOUTING LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME 00:55:04 and remove punctuation, yes, maybe 00:55:14 why would you remove punctuation? 00:55:24 well to make most searches more efficient 00:55:34 maybe have heuristics to keep it in urls and channel names and stuff 00:55:42 but "foo," "foo:" "foo." "foo!" "foo?" etc. 00:55:49 the plan is basically to build the whole botte storage engine on something similar to datalog 00:55:52 i.e., a prolog-esque db 00:56:04 well when you're searching you just use the simple copy for finding the right file/line 00:56:11 then you grep those lines with the usual files again 00:56:33 of course 00:56:42 i'll probably just filter out [a-zA-Z0-9] 00:56:44 and then uppercase it all 00:56:48 even drop spaces 00:56:54 useful for e.g. "brainfuck" vs "brain fuck" 00:57:00 or just filter out [A-Z0-9] 00:57:01 :D 00:57:08 the channel would be silent :P 00:57:11 :D 00:57:18 except for smileys :D 00:57:24 have everyone pre-process on their own 00:57:30 i.e. before they send to the channel.. 00:57:38 you could have mutliple copies too 00:57:58 when i say prolog-esque db, i also want to stuff s-expressions in there somehow 00:58:03 just because it's, you know, advanced technology 00:58:24 now the issue is that no _language_ can live up to such an amazing database system... 00:58:25 one normal copy, one with strtoupper, then with spaces normalized, then with common words removed, then with punctuation removed, then with more punctuation removed, then with spaces removed 00:58:38 each level has everything the previous had 00:59:32 elliott: have you played secret maryo? 01:00:29 no 01:01:23 >>> re.sub(r'[^a-z0-9]', '', 'Hello, world! http://google.com/ is the nemesis 20 times over. :P'.lower()) 01:01:23 'helloworldhttpgooglecomisthenemesis20timesoverp' 01:01:27 might wanna filter out smilies first 01:01:35 actually spaces could be worth keeping :) 01:01:48 other things botte will let you do: play the Name Game 01:04:00 i wonder if anyone's already invented my latex-but-for-semantic-document-layout-rather-than-print-layout-making 01:04:05 like texinfo, except less sucky 01:04:34 elliott: hence i say filter out common words 01:04:54 cheater00: that's getting too close to a proper indexer for my liking, i'd rather build that kind of stuff on _top_ of a powerful thing 01:05:00 in fact, i'm not even sure i want to filter punctuation 01:05:05 maybe i'll just lowercase it all 01:05:13 i can build another index store for searching on top of that 01:05:28 you do 01:05:32 nah 01:05:38 what if you want to search for code snippets 01:05:47 this is to be used by everything, i can build another stripped index on top 01:05:49 then you enter punctuation into your query 01:06:01 i mean, the current combined log is only 124 and a half megabytes 01:06:05 and then it knows, yo, i gotta use me the punctuation-enabled database, yo 01:06:31 i could fit 196.6 copies of the log onto a $20 prgmr vps 01:06:36 (assuming the disk is otherwise completely empty) 01:06:45 yes 01:06:47 and that's including its inefficient textual storage format 01:06:52 and inclusion of irrelevant things like joins and parts 01:06:55 so really i'm not too worried 01:07:16 elliott: Have fun with no OS :P 01:07:23 what we really need is a neuron simulation that will just learn how to tell us what logs to read 01:07:33 Gregor: it was just figurewank :P 01:07:37 cheater00: just read them all 01:07:57 Gregor: OS is overrated, just load a simple telnet server into RAM from NetBIOS 01:08:11 on a prgmr.com xen, SUUUUURE 01:08:20 elliott: :D 01:08:28 elliott: i was saying that knowingly. 01:11:15 * elliott installs lhs2tex 01:12:42 -!- Behold has joined. 01:12:44 Literate Hasell? 01:12:47 Haskell 01:13:07 yes 01:13:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:13:14 oh great... i borked my texlive install 01:13:45 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:13:58 * elliott downloads basictex :P 01:14:21 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:14:55 -!- variable has joined. 01:14:58 what a coincidence! copumpkin coming in just as i do haskell! 01:15:04 (note: you will always be the #haskeller. always) 01:15:04 zomg 01:15:07 (ALWAYS) 01:16:48 man, I've only been using haskell for a couple of years and already I'm known for it! 01:17:14 copumpkin: you might consider that instead, the problem is that you haven't done _anything_ more interesting than use haskell :D 01:17:29 :( 01:17:34 copumpkin: i'm just kidding! 01:17:36 :( 01:17:39 :( 01:17:53 setup: /usr/local/texlive/2010basic/texmf-local/tex/latex/polytable: 01:17:53 permission denied 01:17:54 what 01:18:15 oh i need sudo 01:18:17 greaaaaat 01:18:24 sudo apt-install elliott 01:18:29 ... 01:18:30 Wait, whoops 01:18:35 sudo apt-get install elliott 01:18:39 *aptitude 01:18:48 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 01:18:53 aw i hurt his feelings 01:18:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:18:56 oh 01:18:59 What's wrong with apt-get? 01:19:11 Also, WTF key combination did I press thaat did that? 01:19:13 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 01:19:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:19:19 Fuck you, Ctrl-W 01:20:33 lol 01:20:34 Sgeo: the official package manager of the Debian operating system is aptitude 01:20:38 * copumpkin drowns his sorrows in cheese 01:20:43 so hey copumpkin MISTER HASKELL how do i use lhs2tex, i want step by step instructions 01:20:44 nextstep 101 01:20:55 elliott: i want that too 01:21:05 i want a pony 01:21:15 elliott: everything you find out, relay it to me, let me just turn on my Ono-Sendai 01:21:16 oh... lhs2tex looks like it italicises all names by default, not just variable bindings 01:21:16 no tex for you 01:21:20 but top-level definitions and library functions too 01:21:23 but i'm sure i can customise that 01:21:27 elliott: it's a 7 01:21:38 what 01:21:43 what what 01:21:47 argh this is stupid 01:21:47 or is it 01:21:53 you don't know the Ono Sendai Cyberspace 7? 01:22:07 i'm trying to get lhs to work 01:22:08 kthx 01:22:16 hey it works zom 01:22:17 g 01:22:25 ! LaTeX Error: File `stmaryrd.sty' not found. 01:22:32 pastebin code example plz 01:22:42 "% The module for importing the St Mary's Road symbol font." 01:22:44 why are you importing that. 01:23:00 ugh 01:23:04 why do people use os x 01:23:10 yea really 01:23:11 i don't understand how anyone can use an os without a package manager 01:23:19 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 01:23:21 it's like using a programming language without names 01:23:24 esoteric OS 01:23:25 same thing i've been asking myself 01:23:28 haha 01:23:36 let's install netbsd on a toaster :( 01:23:48 netbsd's package manager isn't so hot either :) 01:23:59 yea but it's an esoteric os project 01:24:19 doesn't osx have ports? 01:24:24 i thought that wasn't shit 01:24:25 cheater00,already done 01:24:31 variable: i know 01:24:33 and it toasts bread :-) 01:24:41 variable: but until 5 people do it it's still esoteric 01:25:08 variable: that's no special feat. any computer with a pentium 4 can toast bread 01:25:19 cheater00: macports is bad 01:25:25 elliott: how bad 01:25:27 homebrew is slightly better but run by seeming idiots and with a lack of packages 01:25:29 cheater00: bad bad 01:25:34 is it as bad as YaST? 01:25:36 saying it as someone who used it for like two years 01:25:43 um well rpm anything i can't really comment on. 01:25:54 yast is superbad 01:26:10 rpm is bad - not as bad as some others 01:26:21 but meh 01:26:26 http://www.embeddedarm.com/software/arm-netbsd-toaster.php 01:26:32 that's lame though 01:26:44 you gotta find a toaster that is produced in mass 01:26:56 that without modifications (large ones) can accept a kernel OS 01:27:12 i think what i'm going to do is write a bunch of programs that convert $stupid_language_specific_package_manager packages into debian packages 01:27:22 i dunno, aren't there microcontrollers in some toasters? 01:27:32 so I can do "sudo apt-cabal install some-hackage-package" 01:27:39 and it installs it as haskell-cabal-some-hackage-package 01:27:51 elliott: ya, this whole package thing is pissing me off 01:28:09 cheater00: i think it's because, in these little isolated bubbles, they're convinced that they can do better than everyone else 01:28:23 cheater00: it sorta started with CPAN, which wasn't _too_ horrible since it wasn't identical to apt — ok it was 500000x worse 01:28:25 people should finally agree on the One True Package Distribution System: wget from cdrom.com 01:28:28 but you couldn't tell it was trying to be apt 01:28:33 then like 01:28:36 python's abomination 01:28:37 and ruby gemshit 01:28:39 came along 01:28:55 and php's PEAR 01:28:55 and then it just so happened that it was easy to write a program that automatically installed hackage packages... 01:28:57 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 01:28:57 ...and now we have cabal! 01:29:00 i love how shit pear is 01:29:08 i don't think anyone uses pear 01:29:13 php devs don't really understand the concept of a library package 01:29:15 i sure didn't 01:29:16 yea they don't 01:29:19 pear fucking sucks 01:29:26 pear always confused me, like, 01:29:30 there were all these functions 01:29:31 but why so many 01:29:33 why these classes 01:29:35 what are classes for 01:29:41 and how come i can't use these functions it just gives me an error 01:29:42 have you ever used this php based make "replacement" 01:29:42 how do i get them 01:29:48 what 01:29:50 it's like replacing broken bones with frozen doodies 01:29:57 yea 01:30:01 it's called phing 01:30:02 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:30:07 and it sucks so bad 01:30:13 make is so bad, but if there's one thing worse than make, it's make replacements 01:30:24 lol, phing is based on ant 01:30:27 always a good design decision 01:30:33 "Simple XML buildfiles" 01:30:35 ant...... 01:30:36 but of course 01:30:37 horid 01:30:37 but if there's one thing worse than ant, it's ant replacements 01:30:38 just 01:30:40 horid 01:30:43 *horrid 01:30:50 ant is great, they decided to make a build system 01:30:53 so they reimplemented shell scripts 01:30:55 except without any features 01:30:58 :D 01:31:05 it doesn't even have dependency handling, or the ability to avoid rebuilding everything 01:31:12 you could rewrite any ant file as a 10x shorter *dos batch file* 01:31:14 it does 01:31:19 you have depends in ant 01:31:23 well yeah. but it doesn't work properly 01:31:27 and everyone just has one compile target 01:31:29 which makes one call to java 01:31:30 and it does partial rebuilds 01:31:33 which does all the work 01:31:34 yea 01:31:54 wanna know the solution to that? 01:31:56 don't use java software 01:32:05 cheater00, ant is still the suckiest build system I've seen 01:32:09 including autohell 01:32:28 variable: i'm starting to come to a glowing appreciation of autohell after using scons 01:32:46 "Life's Been a Blast" 01:32:47 scorns? 01:32:51 with scons it's like they made a build system, but then heard about this "declarative" stuff 01:32:55 and then hacked up something in five minutes 01:32:57 Appropriate title for a book about a victim of a bombing? 01:32:58 and decided to release it lik ethat 01:33:00 *like that 01:33:01 Sgeo: YES. 01:33:11 Sgeo: :D 01:33:20 best possible title 01:33:32 elliott, I've never used scons 01:33:37 elliott: i want a programming language that can be localized 01:33:39 variable: you're lucky 01:33:42 white whine time: 01:33:47 how come i'm only getting 800 KiB/s 01:33:47 elliott: let's port python to en_GB 01:33:49 over wifi 01:33:51 on my expensive computer 01:33:54 cheater00, there exist such languages/libraries 01:33:56 to download an automatic software installer 01:34:02 that will let me typeset my useless programs 01:34:03 prettily 01:34:04 as PDFs 01:34:06 for no higher gain 01:34:08 WHYYYY 01:34:20 cheater00: better, let's write an stdlib that uses en-GB spellings 01:34:25 ugh it's horrible because 01:34:28 :D 01:34:32 i have to name my own functions with "o" and "ize" 01:34:32 because 01:34:34 http://www.emilylyons.com/webs/emily/ 01:34:36 otherwise they're inconsistent with api functions 01:34:39 and i keep typoing it 01:34:40 wait 01:34:43 "o"? 01:34:43 maybe instead of case-insensitive languages 01:34:44 we should have 01:34:46 oh armor etc 01:34:47 cheater00: instead of ou 01:34:50 we should have 01:34:51 yeah 01:34:54 dialect-insensitive languages 01:34:57 ou and o are exactly the same 01:34:58 ize and ise too 01:35:03 BEST IDEA GUYS BEST IDEA 01:35:14 it wuz my ideah 01:35:19 get ur own ideah durrr 01:35:22 no, yours involved manual translation 01:35:24 * cheater00 smashes rocks together 01:35:29 mine would also remove 'eh' from every variable name for the canucks 01:35:42 i said let's port, i never said manually 01:36:00 when i say let's execute this program, i'm not manually moving electrons across semiconductor gaps 01:36:14 you aren't? 01:36:15 poseur 01:36:53 nope 01:36:56 oh man i should so be sleeping guess what i'm not doing THAT'S RIGHT sleeping 01:36:59 you are (hence "we") 01:37:05 you are my evil henchman!! 01:37:20 elliott: let's replace brains with computers 01:37:26 what is the working plan 01:37:31 ITT: cheater00 discovers transhumanism 01:37:33 1. find out how brains work 01:37:43 2. 01:37:50 (wait did you call me a cross-dresser) 01:37:54 yes 01:38:03 a cross...THOUGHT MEDIUM 01:38:03 (ok good just checking) 01:38:05 ...dresser 01:38:19 2. find out how brains work even more 01:38:26 3. find out how to replace parts of it 01:38:30 this trackpad is really nice 01:38:33 4. experiment on tissue samples 01:38:38 5. figure out a unit testing suite 01:38:41 6. write unit tests 01:38:58 cheater00: http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm 01:39:15 7. execute unit tests and keep fixing stuff 01:39:25 dan's data is my favrite 01:40:20 well there's this teleportation death paradigm 01:40:30 cheater00: see http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm 01:40:30 like, the moment you are teleported away, you die 01:40:31 read before commenting 01:40:36 that paradigm is bullshit 01:40:38 but see http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm 01:40:44 -!- BMG has joined. 01:40:45 that will put anyone's fears to rest 01:40:49 well what i'm saying is, there's a "fix" to that 01:40:53 except it won't because they'll just find another excuse ofc 01:40:58 cheater00: um yes and it's in http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm for instance :) 01:40:58 you can replace brain neuron by neuron 01:41:02 cheater00: yes that's exactly what he says 01:41:08 stfu and read it, dan's data must always be read 01:41:09 well he's read my mind then 01:41:13 -!- BMG has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:41:18 or more like you had the obvious idea 01:41:28 i would read immediately except i need to spend a penny 01:41:29 it's total bullshit that teleportation is death though 01:41:34 cheater00: eh? 01:41:53 "Eclipse Orion Project Announced - Browser Based Eclipse" 01:42:02 The Eclipse project, always advancing frontiers in IDE slowness. 01:42:07 you've never been to a public toilet have you? 01:42:24 "We're afraid the current Java/SWT-based system just outgrew us," a spokesperson for the Eclipse Foundation said. 01:42:38 WTF 01:42:40 that's amazing 01:42:42 "With a Java backend, and a JavaScript frontend, we're hoping we can achieve slowdowns of some 2-4x." 01:42:46 http://dev.eclipse.org/blogs/mike/2011/01/11/introducing-orion/ 01:42:50 in fact, it might make eclipse less slow, because chrome 01:42:51 all quotes absolutely real 01:42:53 AND NO FABRICATED 01:42:57 cheater00: who cares, it's still eclipse 01:43:04 yea fuck ide's 01:43:11 fuck putting everything into the browser 01:43:13 if i wanted an ide i'd just use bash 01:43:15 i hate my browser 01:43:18 so do i 01:43:21 fucking firefox 01:43:25 i fucking hate it so much 01:43:37 i dunno whether you're being sarcastic or not but yeah pretty much 01:43:37 chrome is even worse 01:43:41 i have an extremely hostile relationship with my browser 01:43:55 and opera is like nice, nice, and then at some point it goes from being ok to TOTALLY BOMBING OUT 01:44:00 opera is terrible 01:44:05 it's a crappy browser, its two features are 01:44:09 (1) runs on windows 95 01:44:10 (2) is fast 01:44:20 it has terrible support for standards and ... everything 01:44:21 yea that's what i mean ((2)) 01:44:24 way more than any other browsers 01:44:38 actually opera was usually on the forefront of standards 01:44:47 cheater00: perhaps in the 90s 01:44:49 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:44:57 except it's not fairyfox so it doesn't get css optimized for it 01:44:58 cheater00: that perception is ever-present but illusory nowadays 01:45:17 i'll brb 01:45:18 opera fanbois are *very* ... touchy about it, and very promoting 01:45:25 i desperately need to continue reading cryptonomicon 01:45:28 i have a feeling opera have built up this standards reputation by hiring a bunch of standards people 01:45:32 but really shit breaks in opera all the time 01:45:39 if you know what i mean 01:45:52 um. do you mean that you need to continue reading cryptonomicon 01:46:06 CryptoNomiCon is a conference for crypto freaks who play nomic 01:53:30 -!- TLUL has joined. 01:56:12 Unlike CryptoNomIcon, which is a picture of a super-dog eating. 01:56:53 Gregor: I hate you. 01:57:07 Gregor: Pretty much. 01:57:23 Gregor: Especially since it's Kryptwhy do I know this. 01:57:43 lawl, I legitimately didn't know it was spelled that way :P 01:57:52 But did know it was "Crypto" 01:58:24 CryPtonoMicon is obviously a guy called Ptono Micon, who's crying. 01:58:44 He's Ghanan. 01:59:14 installin' mactex... then bed 02:01:09 * Sgeo likes the idea of "social coding" 02:01:46 that sounds like the worst of ideas 02:02:10 elliott, I think it's GitHub's tagline 02:02:40 lame 02:02:44 lhs2tex doesn't work with memoir 02:02:45 ! Class memoir Error: Font command \tt is not supported. 02:02:46 TODO: fix 02:03:02 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:08:14 Dammit 02:08:21 Am I hallucinating that tagline? 02:09:36 i don't think so 02:09:42 it's on github.com's front page 02:09:47 eh i'll fix all this lhs2tex stuff tomorrow 02:09:57 I'm staring at it right now, and don't see it 02:10:03 I don't see the word social anywhere 02:10:38 logo. 02:10:40 when logged in 02:10:40 -> 02:10:42 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:11:02 Oh duh 02:11:25 And I'm not logged on 02:11:29 But how did I miss that? 02:22:01 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:23:33 -!- variable has joined. 02:32:32 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:34:34 Sony suing Geohotz and Team fail0verflow in US courts. 02:34:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:34:50 Do you know anything about process colors and spot colors? 02:34:55 US courts have no jurisdiction over anyone but Geohotz; wonder how that's going to work. 02:34:58 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 02:35:26 Actually, I wonder how they're even going to serve papers. 02:36:44 Oh, they also have jurisdiction over bushing; he's in CA. 02:37:55 comex: Say: a) did you have any involvement in fail0verflow that you are willing to admit to b) are you in the US? 02:38:40 they don't know fail0verflow membership and it's worth not divulging it at this point 02:39:23 copumpkin: There's a reason I specified "that you are willing to admit to". 02:39:57 As there are quite a few jurisdictions where admitting to that is probably a bad idea. 02:40:54 -!- totem has joined. 02:41:27 -!- azaq23 has joined. 02:42:13 what channel here? 02:42:24 totem: Esoteric computer programming. 02:42:36 (But we discuss a lot of other things too) 02:43:45 A programming language is [in loose terms] a language that computers can understand. An esoteric programming language is a language that's not designed for practical utility, but for other reasons, such as being painful to use, or interesting in some theoretical sense, etc. 02:43:53 zzo38, what about sex and malware? 02:44:04 sorry 02:44:08 totem, this channel is off-topic 99% of the time 02:44:21 totem: Do you have questions about sex and malware? Maybe someone can answer them, I don't know. 02:45:15 Sexual jokes probably occur more frequently than discussion about malware 02:45:19 wait, i'm reading the link of topic 02:46:24 totem: Yes the wiki has a lot of things about esoteric programming languages. Also the logs has previous discussions in this channel (you are not required to follow the logs, but you can if you want to). 02:47:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:48:03 *Ahahahah*. 02:48:35 SCEA is moving to put an immediate halt to the distribution of these "circumvention devices". 02:48:40 pikhq, are you Wanda? 02:48:50 Wanda Firebaugh 02:48:58 Someone's about to taste the wrath of the Streisand effect. 02:49:00 Sgeo: No. 02:49:02 pikhq: What circumvention devices, to be specific? And what is SCEA? 02:49:13 zzo38: Sony Computer Entertainment of America. 02:49:29 I did a Wanda Firebaugh laugh as my FB status when I finally got those assignments done 02:49:41 zzo38: And the circumvention devices are... Not very well specified. 02:49:48 um... I think I may have just spoiled something 02:49:52 Presumably the private keys that Sony handed to everybody. 02:50:40 If you have the private key can you adjust the boot BIOS? 02:50:57 You can *replace* it. 02:51:03 the circumvention "device" is the instructions and software 02:51:36 copumpkin: The instructions are well-known details about ECDSA, and the software is an ECDSA signer. 02:52:27 Everyone should replace it with one that does not allow the update service to change the boot BIOS system and instead switches to a secondary level BIOS which is the one which will be updated by Sony. 02:52:44 And arguably the private keys are actually being distributed *by Sony*. 02:53:36 pikhq: yes, but the legalese doesn't reveal that 02:53:53 they need to put it in terms that make it sound dangerous and like it can be stopped 02:53:56 And what Sony should do is, make a private key for each individual unit which is written somewhere on the unit. If they do that, whoever in Sony that distributed the universal private key will stop, because that will adjust the Conspiracy level to make them want to stop. 02:54:17 since the whole point of that is to take geohot's (and the rest of f0f's, ideally) stuff to "stop distribution" 02:54:20 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:54:26 zzo38: There's also the console private key; the hard drive is encrypted with it. 02:55:03 Isn't the HD encryption useless or something? 02:55:49 Sgeo: If you get around the signing, *all* the encryption is useless. 02:56:05 You ask the decryption SPU to decrypt stuff for you *and it does*. 02:56:30 As soon as you are executing code on the PS3, you're done. 02:56:38 Sorry. Code from GameOS. 02:56:54 If it wasn't this, then even a simple buffer overflow in a game would really fuck shit up. 02:57:07 pikhq: They should write the console private key on the case, restore the 4 USB ports (instead of having only 2 USB ports), and make it so the console private key can be used anywhere that the universal one can be used and vice versa. And then whichever employee published it, might decide to stop distributing the universal key. 02:57:26 No employee published it 02:57:30 zzo38: I don't think you understand how the private key got leaked. 02:57:33 It was a function of the way they were signing stuff 02:57:40 pikhq: You are right I do not understand. 02:57:44 They signed stuff such that if you got two signed items, you could learn the key 02:58:08 zzo38: ECDSA requires a random number to be used in generating signatures. If you don't do this, then it's trivial to obtain the key used. 02:58:23 zzo38: And Sony used a constant instead of a random number. 02:58:42 Sgeo: Someone made it like that deliberately because they wanted users to have the key, but without telling the other people who work in Sony. 02:58:46 So. If you have two signed things from Sony, you can extract the key. 02:59:07 How do you go about determining that it was a constant? Do the math as though it was, do it for several signed items, and see if the resulting key is consistent? 02:59:36 Sgeo: The first half of the signature will be constant, as that part is a function of the key, the key length, and the random number. 02:59:45 Ah 03:01:05 That part is also believed to be nearly impossible to reverse. However, the remaining half is some basic modular arithmetic done on the key, the random number, and the hash of the message. 03:01:22 Did one of the employees do that deliberately? 03:01:28 zzo38: We do not know. 03:01:41 All we know is that *each and every PS3 executable* is signed like this. 03:01:48 If not, they could correct it on PlayStation 4. 03:02:50 But if so, then my scheme might correct it. 03:03:16 So in addition to changing it to use random numbers instead of constants, make guesses as to whether or not it is deliberate. 03:04:06 The only *possible* scheme for Sony to fix this is to add a new layer of signing to new PS3 executables, add a whitelist for all "legitimate" old PS3 executables, and ship this out in a new firmware update. 03:04:22 And *all* this does is make it so you need to use a modchip instead of a pure software hack. 03:04:46 pikhq: So, everyone should upgrade the BIOS to their own version before Sony can do that. 03:05:00 zzo38: No need. 03:05:11 When you say executable, what level are you speaking at? The video I watched said that they didn't have the keys for signing games 03:05:27 Sgeo: fail0verflow never bothered to *get* the keys for signing games. 03:05:41 Sgeo: However, *each and every level* in the PS3 chain of trust is vulnerable. 03:06:23 -!- TLUL has joined. 03:18:16 lol @ sony 03:18:21 lol @ drm 03:22:48 "A 2009 study published in Boston Review found that nearly 25 percent of non-Jewish Americans blamed Jews for the financial crisis of 2008–2009, with a higher percentage among Democrats than Republicans." 03:22:51 lolwut? 03:26:44 i also blame jews. specific jews. along with specific people of other creeds... 03:42:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:47:01 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 03:47:08 Sony is also claiming that all of this stuff was done for the sole purpose of "enabling piracy". 03:47:55 damn right 03:47:58 ARR MATEYS 03:48:02 SHIVER ME PS3S 03:48:34 And fail0verflow is doing it for the sole purpose of enabling an advertised feature of the hardware. 03:51:29 They are also filing claims under various laws aimed at preventing cracking into other people's computers. 03:51:38 Is... Sony claiming *ownership* of all PS3s? 03:52:32 And finally, they claim that by restraining this action, they can stop piracy on the PS3. 03:52:32 This reminds me of a webcomic I used to follow 03:52:34 Streisand! 03:53:02 ... Ohhhh holy fuck. 03:53:17 I don't think Streisand applies when not doing anything would not prevent everyone from knowing about it, which they do anyway 03:53:46 They are also seeking the impoundment of "any and all media in which circumvention devices are stored within the possession, custody, or control of Defendants". 03:54:13 Good thing most of Team fail0verflow is completely outside of jurisdiction. 03:54:15 :O 03:55:10 * pikhq finishes reading the request for temporary restraining order and impoundment. 03:55:11 Can they be extradited? 03:55:25 Civil case. 03:55:29 Not only no but fuck no. 03:55:38 lol 03:56:05 Oh, it's Sony v. George Hotz, Cantero, Sven Peter, and Does 1 through 100. 03:56:08 Comical. 03:56:26 o.O at Does 1 through 100 03:56:36 That is not very rare, though. 03:56:38 lots of anonymice 03:57:11 Most of team fail0verflow does go by aliases, and it's likely many of them are unknown. 03:57:40 Maybe I shouldn't have Sgeo so closely associated with my RL name 03:58:20 The request was granted. 03:58:29 Against Geohotz. 03:58:45 Erm, no. 03:58:46 No it wasn't. 03:59:33 Misinterpreted the form for the *suggested* order as being granted; all that there is is a form that a judge could fill out. 03:59:46 Anyways. Finished reading relevant legal documents. 04:00:20 So far, I see two major fail from Sony's lawyers. One, many of the people they are suing are out of jurisdiction. Two, they are suing under claims of the DMCA. 04:00:57 With claims that they did this with the *sole purpose* of enabling illegal copying. 04:01:56 Which they then note in the filing that all defendants have claimed otherwise. 04:02:02 They may have just committed perjury. 04:03:09 -!- totem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:05:04 -!- totem has joined. 04:05:15 They are also claiming that Geohot committed extortion. 04:05:42 "if you want your next console to be secure, get in touch with me." ← this, namely. 04:06:07 hahaha 04:06:36 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:07:23 * Sgeo decides he wants to make a language in which you can write compilers as easily as interpreters 04:07:44 -!- variable has joined. 04:07:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:11:34 *cough* 04:11:39 erk: C0 CE FE 84 C2 27 F7 5B D0 7A 7E B8 46 50 9F 93 B2 38 E7 70 DA CB 9F F4 A3 88 F8 12 48 2B E2 1B 04:11:43 riv: 47 EE 74 54 E4 77 4C C9 B8 96 0C 7B 59 F4 C1 4D 04:11:48 pub: C2 D4 AA F3 19 35 50 19 AF 99 D4 4E 2B 58 CA 29 25 2C 89 12 3D 11 D6 21 8F 40 B1 38 CA B2 9B 71 01 F3 AE B7 2A 97 50 19 04:11:53 R: 80 6E 07 8F A1 52 97 90 CE 1A AE 02 BA DD 6F AA A6 AF 74 17 04:11:58 n: E1 3A 7E BC 3A CC EB 1C B5 6C C8 60 FC AB DB 6A 04 8C 55 E1 04:12:02 K: BA 90 55 91 68 61 B9 77 ED CB ED 92 00 50 92 F6 6C 7A 3D 8D 04:12:03 that's a lot of keys 04:12:07 Da: C5 B2 BF A1 A4 13 DD 16 F2 6D 31 C0 F2 ED 47 20 DC FB 06 70 04:12:09 *cough* 04:12:18 What a very long and hex-y coughing fit. 04:12:49 those hex numbers are illegal aren't they? 04:12:56 * quintopia arrests pikhq 04:13:45 quintopia: You are violating patents thousands of times a day! 04:14:17 * Sgeo is [not actually] tempted to mention pikhq's name 04:14:22 Note: I'm not an asshole 04:15:15 I think 04:15:17 * pikhq presumes that quintopia *is* a form of Terran life, and thus violates various gene patents constantly 04:15:39 (and yes, it *is* illegal to be alive in the US currently.) 04:16:12 pikhq: i have diplomatic immunity 04:16:32 quintopia: Oh, you're a designated representative of a foreign state? 04:16:49 In what capacity, might I ask? 04:16:52 yes. i'm handling negotiations with the arcturans at the moment 04:17:17 Is my language idea feasible? I mean, if Trusting Trust is feasible, than surely my language is 04:17:33 brb 04:18:12 Although I'm wondering if the idea is too similar to these VM things 04:19:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 04:19:51 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 04:21:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:22:18 Better idea: It should make it decently easy to write your own self-hosting language 04:22:43 Not sure how that would work, exactly 04:24:10 o.O 04:24:33 Sweden suspended mens rea. For men. Pertaining to rape charges. 04:24:49 That's... Awful. 04:25:47 lolwat? 04:26:03 (mens rea is the legal concept that someone cannot be charged with a crime unless that person had the actual intent to commit said crime.) 04:26:22 Wait, how would you rape someone without intending to rape someone? 04:27:07 Sgeo: You could be completely unaware that the other party was not in a state to give consent. 04:29:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Too much damn politics here). 04:30:37 Damned Norwegian, not having fucking crazy people around. 04:32:03 Ideally, the source for the compiler for my new language should not mention x86 at all. 04:32:08 Nothing platform-specific 04:32:21 It should all be Trusting-Trust-ed in 04:34:06 Although it would make porting it to new platforms a royal bitch 04:36:36 -!- azaq23 has joined. 04:38:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:40:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:40:31 -!- totem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:40:37 What DPI does WotC use for cards? I am told they are 133 DPI for process colors and 1200 DPI for text, but whoever told me has never actually seen how they make the cards and was never in WotC ever 04:44:11 More than 1DPI 04:46:36 Sgeo: Yes........ 04:50:55 But do I have to make TeXnicard to print two files, one for process colors and one for text? 04:51:32 * Sgeo has no ida 04:54:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida ?? 04:55:24 I don't have any girls named Ida 04:55:28 can you have literate literate programming? 04:55:47 -!- calamari has joined. 04:55:55 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit). 04:56:08 cheater00: Literate literate programming? You probably could, I guess.... but why? Because it is esoteric programming? 04:56:22 no, i mean like literate literate C 04:56:51 cheater00: What is literate literate C? 04:56:56 Wouldn't that be a subset of literate literate programming? 04:56:59 it's literate C, but literate. 04:57:13 cheater00: ?? 04:57:21 As opposed to a barely-legible currently-existing literate C? 04:57:22 zzo38: ???????????????????????????????? 04:57:30 Sgeo: bingo! 04:57:40 cheater00: ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 04:57:52 zzo38: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 04:57:57 Sgeo: It isn't barely-legible unless you use the wrong printer? 04:57:59 Begun, the question mark wars have? 04:58:17 zzo38, by barely-legible I meant hard for humans to understand 04:58:33 Sgeo: It is not hard to understand if you understand programming. 04:58:46 cheater00 apparently disagrees 04:58:50 ow 04:59:09 proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard 04:59:15 (where -, is the not sign) 04:59:45 is it? 05:00:18 If you misunderstand then please write more clearly. And then the program/book can be understood. 05:00:25 yes 05:00:31 it's not long, I know this 05:00:42 but it is excruciating to attempt to work out 05:02:10 coppro: LOGIC TABLES???????? 05:02:33 logic tables is a nice way to prove something that only has two variables 05:02:36 cheater00: Logic tables will show you too, but probably that is not what he meant. 05:02:50 will "show me too"? 05:02:54 what does that mean? 05:03:04 logic tables will knock on my door and give me a black eye? 05:03:10 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 05:03:24 THE LOGIC TABLES WILL GET THEIR VENGEANCE, MWAHAHA 05:03:31 hurr durrr 05:03:33 :D 05:04:06 elliott, when you logread this, your bot tells me to shut up about sex 05:05:15 alluded 05:05:19 alluded-to 05:05:23 alluded to 05:05:30 -!- rodgort has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 05:07:56 cheater00: no, this involves syntactically deriving it from a set of axioms 05:08:00 tables are a crutch 05:09:08 Are there statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms? 05:09:20 Is logic expressive enough to express arithmatic? 05:09:35 there's more than one logic 05:09:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:10:34 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:11:47 Sgeo: Have you seen Godel,Escher,Bach? It is a book maybe it can answer those two of your questions. 05:11:55 Heard of it 05:12:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:12:18 Sgeo: there are necessarily 05:12:32 if you can prove anything, your logic is inconsistent 05:13:17 coppro, I thought that was only in systems expressive enough to contain arithmatic? 05:13:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:13:36 coppro, also, *any true thing 05:14:15 Sgeo: it's a bit more complex that that and requires some funkiness 05:19:28 " j-invariant: help me design my language :P" <<< HEY! you should be doing drudge work on the CLUE 05:20:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:21:55 there is no one thing you can pinpoint and say "if you can express this, GIT applies, and otherwise it does not." it's a collection of things you need to have to make the proof go through. 05:26:13 " I just dug this small cave into a hill and trapped the cows in there" <<< YOU ARE A MONSTER 05:32:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:33:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:33:43 " 00:39:12 has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck?" " how embarrassing" <<< not really, i just felt like it'd be a waste of time doing it twice 05:37:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:39:20 but it turned out a bit too hard for by tiny brain, i'm not even sure i completely finished my brainfuck in brainfuck back then 05:51:32 o 05:51:32 o 05:51:33 o 05:51:33 o 05:53:06 " Are there statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms?" <<< what if the statement that there are statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms is true but cannot be proven from axioms? 05:53:09 WE'D NEVER KNOW! 05:55:02 "The sandwich consists of a single warmed, hollowed-out loaf of bread filled with one jar of creamy peanut butter, one jar of grape jelly, and a pound of bacon." Wikipedia on the Fool's Gold Loaf. 05:55:05 "... <<< not really, i just felt like it'd be a waste of time doing it twice" <<< yes, waste of the world's time 05:55:14 This is produced by a *five star restaurant* in Denver. 05:55:33 No gold leaf? 05:55:49 that sounds pretty awesome 05:55:57 brilliant 05:55:59 i must go there 05:56:08 i don't know what grape jelly is but i suppose it is... grape jelly 05:56:20 oklopol: grape with all the fruit taken out 05:57:18 oklopol: You may know it as "jam" or "fruit preserves"; the name for that method of food preservation is kinda regional in English. 05:59:44 The Fool's Gold Loaf originally cost $50; it now costs something closer to $100, and is served with a bottle of Dom Pérignon. 05:59:57 Quite an interesting combination of low and high class there. 06:01:02 i can only assume dom perignon is low class, because a pound of bacon is the highest you can get! 06:03:08 Dom Pérignon is a somewhat expensive vintage champagne. 06:05:44 if i have to be really honest, i had a hunch it was 06:06:00 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:07:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:08:35 -!- Vorpal has joined. 06:26:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: This has probably been said before, but here it is again.). 06:42:18 -!- kwertii has joined. 06:42:23 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:42:52 -!- pingveno has joined. 07:00:55 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:00:59 -!- Zuu has joined. 07:05:22 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:09:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:14:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:18:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:21:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:24:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:26:20 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 07:27:39 coppro: ~a => (a => b) <=> a => (~a => b) <=> ~( a ^ ~(~a => b)) <=> ~(a ^ ~a ^ ~b) 07:28:03 obviously ~0 <=> 1. 07:28:40 sure, you need to prove the negation of implication. 07:28:47 but you should have that by then. 07:29:48 it depends on what definition of => you use. 07:29:55 it's usually a truth table. 07:37:28 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:46:30 elliott: http://www.dansdata.com/gz084.htm that guy has no idea how rechargable batteries work. 07:47:02 elliott: also he has no idea how gradual consciousness upload should work. the method he presents is inferior to mine. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:12:47 -!- S0uRce has joined. 08:13:32 -!- S0uRce has left (?). 08:33:28 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:36:03 -!- [SOLEIL] has joined. 08:37:03 -!- [SOLEIL] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:39:47 INGLIP HAS BEEN SUMMONED 08:42:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:48:48 proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard 08:49:02 dependent on your logic that might _be_ an axiom. 08:49:10 *your logic formalism 08:49:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:51:09 i've seen (-,a) being considered an abbreviation for a->False, in which case the axiom would probably be False->b 08:53:05 INGLIP HAS BEEN SUMMONED 08:53:08 WE KNOW 09:42:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:42:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 09:42:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:43:31 * Phantom_Hoover ponders the WP article on Church encodings. 09:43:55 It actually contradicts their lambda calculus article on the list encoding. 09:45:06 Something Must Be Done. 09:46:09 Actually, that article is too stupid to salvage. 09:52:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Phantom_Hoover). 11:24:10 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:24:16 -!- hiato has joined. 11:36:20 -!- cheater- has joined. 11:38:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:59:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:30:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:05:16 nice 13:05:16 old landlady has accused me of stealing a soap holder. 13:05:16 Perhaps you just have the face of a soap-holder stealer. 13:05:24 i totally need to rip her off for this 5 euro soap holder 13:43:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 13:48:14 cheater-: that sequence you posted does not work from the axioms we have 13:48:31 it requires application of semantic meaning 13:48:33 coppro: what have you used instead? 13:48:41 cheater-: I haven't worked it out yet 13:48:52 what axioms and theorems do you have so far? 13:54:35 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:55:24 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:55:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic#Example_1._Simple_axiom_system 13:56:17 minus the definitions of V and /\ 13:57:35 -!- j-invariant has joined. 14:03:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:10:15 coppro: define the things defined in the last axiom, and then prove their properties. 14:11:25 with this set of axioms you don't even need to prove what the negation of implication is, since you've got it as a definition. 14:11:33 very simple. 14:11:39 01:46:09 Actually, that article is too stupid to salvage. 14:11:39 01:52:21 --- quit: Phantom_Hoover (Quit: Phantom_Hoover) 14:12:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:12:17 alternatively, take my argument above and replace all instances of ^ (x, y) with the right formula based on => (a, b). 14:12:49 you know how => works, so there should be no problem. 14:13:38 if you're complaining about having <=>, well, then just prove each direction of the equivalence by hand. 14:14:12 it's really about taking a high-level argument and compiling it down to a low-level axiom system 14:14:18 it should cost 2 cents to post a youtube comment 14:14:28 it should. 14:16:22 If only because then everyone would end their comments with "just my 2 cents but..." 14:16:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:24:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:25:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:26:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:26:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:28:52 cheater-: ... 14:28:56 it's not that easy 14:29:09 and no, <=> is not acceptable directly from the axioms 14:29:15 the biconditional isn't even a symbol 14:29:19 and we don't have /\ 14:29:23 or \/ 14:35:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:41:03 -!- cheater00 has joined. 14:42:45 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:43:26 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:43:36 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:45:12 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:56:16 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 15:00:40 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:02:15 -!- variable has joined. 15:06:18 -!- cheater00 has joined. 15:07:59 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:15:02 -!- cheater99 has joined. 15:16:23 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:31:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:33:25 is there a programming paradigm which could be described as "preposterous programming"? 15:33:53 objects make false statements about other objects 15:34:10 then those other objects have to unwind all that fuckedupness 15:35:29 A.doesObjectImplement(B, 'Interface1') |-> True // B does not really implement Interface 1. 15:35:52 well there is _now_ 15:36:18 B.doesObjectHave(A, 'foo') |-> False // Although A.foo == 24 15:37:17 object C trusts A more than it trusts B 15:37:22 C asks A stuff about B 15:37:32 A's strategy is for B to not be used and for D to be used instead 15:38:12 this is because directly asked B would always say "i can do it!" 15:38:28 therefore C asks A which is judgemental 15:38:54 in this case A is B's moral judge 15:39:43 of course, A will also be judgemental of B if it doesn't even have a pointer to B 15:39:53 because A is preposterous, just like B is 15:40:15 That is what is known as "terribly maintained code". 15:40:16 alternatively, A could defer judgement to E, which might or might not be telling the truth 15:41:04 and then, A could be doing heavy interpretation of E's answer, too 15:41:14 can i add that to the wiki? 15:41:25 oerjan: ^ 15:42:23 probably 15:44:18 This got me an interesting idea: Imagine a 2D area with each cell containing an instruction. Place a variable number of 8-sided cubes on the area, each cube has instructions on all sides. 15:44:26 i love the "ideas" page 15:52:38 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:55:57 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 16:00:18 http://multimedia.worth1000.com/entries/619892/sagrada-familia-barcelona 16:00:23 Words fail me. 16:02:59 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:04:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:05:21 how fun, i just hacked about 500 stone at the server, then hopped, and now everything's back the way it was 16:06:41 ahahahah 16:07:55 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 16:09:00 how the hell is that even possible 16:09:11 does ineiros randomly reset the server or something 16:11:25 what.... 16:11:43 "End of stream error" 16:11:48 and now it refuses my connection 16:11:50 how do you 
 on wiki
16:11:57  and anyway that resetting thing happened again
16:12:00  what the fuck is going on
16:12:08  oklopol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FOCUS
16:12:10  how do you 
 on wiki
16:12:14  i don't know and i don't care
16:12:28  well, i suppose no minecraft today
16:13:09  cheater99: find any page about algorithms on wp and edit it to see what they put around the pseudocode
16:13:09  ow
16:13:10  :(
16:13:12 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:13:20 * cheater99 gives oklopol a huggy-hug.
16:13:58  oh i see
16:14:13  fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck
16:14:17 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
16:14:17  Hmm.
16:14:22  ineiros:!
16:14:26  *ineiros: !
16:15:26  ineiros: can i get a refund on all that work i did? :D
16:16:04  Yes, I'll have 0€ transferred to your account as soon as possible. ;)
16:16:10  There's something wrong there.
16:16:12  \o/
16:16:12    |
16:16:12   /<
16:16:32     o//
16:17:00  myndzi y u no complete sideways guy?
16:17:25 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
16:18:12  ineiros, completely wrong where?
16:19:01  ineiros: did you fix it?
16:19:02  :D
16:19:05  i wanna continue
16:19:08  :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
16:19:20  Heh, didn't expect this to happen so soon; should have considered it: As you know, I've been running frequent backups since the last incident.
16:19:32  yes
16:19:33 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
16:19:35  ineiros, yes
16:19:45  I think I ran out of free inodes.
16:19:51  ineiros, the what
16:19:52  xD
16:19:59  ineiros, what fs
16:20:05  and I guess you need to fix it then
16:20:10  what kind of 1910's operating system are you running
16:20:11  oklopol: Sorry about the lost work, I'll have the server back in no time.
16:20:20 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:20:22  Vorpal: ext3.
16:20:27  ineiros, I would suggest xfs since it won't run out of inodes ever
16:20:38  Vorpal: Minecraft makes a lot of files, you know.
16:20:47  i have no quarrel with you even just destroying the whole world for fun, it's your server
16:20:56  so no problem
16:21:04  hm
16:21:06  but if you do fix it fast, yay, since otherwise i'll just go to sleep
16:21:20  yeah xfs isn't too great at many small files
16:21:38  oklopol, sleep? this early?
16:21:54  oklopol, I just had breakfast! (Okay that was a bit late, but still)
16:21:54  oklopol: Server's back on.
16:21:55  well every day i go to sleep 2 hours earlier, until i loop
16:22:04  well, roughly
16:22:13  last night was later, but i'm catching up now
16:22:14  i haven't even had breakfast yet
16:22:20  ineiros: wow cool thanks
16:22:32  oklopol, how does that work during non-holidays?
16:22:43 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:22:45  quintopia, yes but you aren't in Europe
16:23:25  Vorpal: it's just been going on this week, and 8-16 has been time awake, but in theory i could just sleep whenever i want, since i don't have that much mandatory stuff at uni
16:23:34  oklopol: write a Preposterous Programming language
16:23:37  so?  the point is it is too early for sleep no matter where you are
16:23:39  just any third of every day
16:23:44  oklopol: __*NOW*___
16:24:08  okay so there's only two commands, 0 and 1, and each is more preposterous than the last
16:24:16  :D
16:24:19  that's the draft i have now
16:24:29  ok. please prove TC
16:24:42  well you can obviously do brainfuck with that
16:24:48  apply the axiom of infinite improbability
16:24:50  and done
16:24:54  oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Preposterous_Programming
16:24:59   ineiros: can i get a refund on all that work i did? :D ← oooh, what're you doing?
16:25:19  + = 1010001010101110100100101110, - = 1010111100101000100110101001000010101, < = 101110100010101010101011, > = 0101000100010011010110, [ = 0101111, ] = 010110001010101110011001001001
16:25:28  LIES
16:26:03 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
16:26:08  + you need some additional stuff if you want to nest []'s more than 7 deep, unless all your loops have an even amount of >'s
16:27:12  also you obviously need 01110 in the beginning of the program, if the bf program allocates cells too fast
16:27:51  also i shouldn't have done that because now i desperately want to find that language
16:28:22  lol
16:31:00  okay so that's why the server had gotten so slow
16:31:26  ineiros: i can actually redo my work in no time since time is now 2.5 times faster
16:32:24  ahaha
16:37:24  oklopol, what are you doing?
16:37:37  making a home
16:40:15  nesting
16:40:38 * cheater99 watches oklopol gather tiny tiny branches, feathers, and weeds in his beak, one at a time.
16:49:11 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
16:50:33 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:55:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
16:56:05  someone put a bot in haskell that man-in-the-middled folks
16:56:27  like ti would just randomly PM two people "hey!" and then start transporting messages between
16:57:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:59:25  j-invariant: tell ops about it :P
17:00:00  lol
17:01:26  is the bot still there?
17:02:37  no
17:03:03  oklopol, down?
17:03:19  ineiros, down?
17:09:11  j-invariant, I want one.
17:09:16  oein what
17:09:16  ?
17:16:09  One of those bots.
17:25:32  http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=323
17:25:39  search for "duplicate" for comedy
17:28:29  ?
17:31:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:38:27 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:48:21 -!- elliott has joined.
17:48:23  18:37:55  comex: Say: a) did you have any involvement in fail0verflow that you are willing to admit to b) are you in the US?
17:48:26  pikhq: (a) I doubt (b) he is
17:49:17  elliott: The thing is, he actually *is* involved in Wii and iPhone hacking...
17:49:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:49:25  pikhq: well sure
17:49:35  pikhq: but the fail0verflow thing was hardware-oriented, I think
17:49:42  whereas his iphone exploit is sw-based, dunno about the wii one
17:50:05  His major Wii exploit is a buffer overflow in Brawl.
17:50:41  http://superuser.com/questions/231273/what-are-the-windows-a-and-b-drives-used-for oh my god i'm 15 how young are you
17:50:44  And the fail0verflow exploit is heavily software-based.
17:50:53  does your mother know you are on the internet kid
17:51:07  a buffer overflow in C++ code, how did comex find that, must be a genius
17:51:36  The only thing they did to the hardware was wire a flasher to the flash where bits of the firmware are stored.
17:52:42  now to boot ubuntu
17:53:49 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:53:57  oklopol is cool: I never spent my summer trying to solve a problem like that
17:54:15  oklopol is cool incarnate
17:54:53  18:57:07  pikhq: They should write the console private key on the case, restore the 4 USB ports (instead of having only 2 USB ports), and make it so the console private key can be used anywhere that the universal one can be used and vice versa. And then whichever employee published it, might decide to stop distributing the universal key.
17:54:56  i what
17:55:17  Yeaaah, zzo38 was a bit confused about what the *main* exploit was.
17:55:24   I am confused
17:55:26  18:58:42  Sgeo: Someone made it like that deliberately because they wanted users to have the key, but without telling the other people who work in Sony.
17:55:28  (fail0verflow found several)
17:55:28  Based on EVIDENCE
17:55:37  I have EVIDENCE for this but you can't see it!
17:55:48  Or maybe I'm just making shit up
17:55:56  (and there's probably more: they use C and C++! BUFFER OVERFLOWS, AHOY!)
17:56:17  19:22:48  "A 2009 study published in Boston Review found that nearly 25 percent of non-Jewish Americans blamed Jews for the financial crisis of 2008–2009, with a higher percentage among Democrats than Republicans."
17:56:17  19:22:51  lolwut?
17:56:22  Gregor: Shut up, you filthy Jew.
17:56:44  "THE JEWS DID THIS"
17:57:00  19:56:05  Oh, it's Sony v. George Hotz, Cantero, Sven Peter, and Does 1 through 100.
17:57:07  doe, a deer, a hundred female deers
17:57:15  http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/jews012.jpg
17:57:32  concur
17:58:01  huh, what letter did old windows systems assign to tape drives? :P
17:58:01  20:14:17 * Sgeo is [not actually] tempted to mention pikhq's name
17:58:10  who, josiah worcester's?
17:58:20  quintopia: they ... didn't :P
17:58:40  Suppose, hypothetically, their lawyers googled for the keys
17:59:13  elliott: I'm thinking of studying a normalization proof of CoC
17:59:30  20:58:50  ow
17:59:30  20:59:09  proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard
17:59:30  20:59:15  (where -, is the not sign)
17:59:31  20:59:45  is it?
17:59:33  21:00:25  yes
17:59:35  21:00:31  it's not long, I know this
17:59:37  21:00:42  but it is excruciating to attempt to work out
17:59:39  Sgeo: Well, they can have *all* of my savings!
17:59:39  lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
17:59:47  Hope you like your $20 profit!
17:59:47  BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT PROVING TRIVIAL THINGS IN PROOF SYSTEMS IS HARD
17:59:59  elliott: so mean :P LOL
18:00:01  now let me get back to proving the principle of explosion
18:00:24  21:12:18  Sgeo: there are necessarily
18:00:24  21:12:32  if you can prove anything, your logic is inconsistent
18:00:24  oh my god
18:00:30  then Gödel!
18:00:34  this is like a trifecta of shut the fuck up
18:00:50  21:13:17  coppro, I thought that was only in systems expressive enough to contain arithmatic?
18:00:52  21:14:15  Sgeo: it's a bit more complex that that and requires some funkiness
18:00:58  xD
18:01:01  21:19:28  " j-invariant: help me design my language :P" <<< HEY! you should be doing drudge work on the CLUE
18:01:03  oklopol: cled, man, cled
18:01:38  can you interface cled with clue
18:01:56  elliott: i've been riding around in a sinclair a lot lately
18:02:00  elliott: it feels very cheap :p
18:02:13  you have a sinclair c5?
18:02:17  why
18:02:26  j-invariant: um cled is an editor for clue code, as i keep trying to tell you :P
18:02:37  because it's plasticky
18:02:45  the outer hull is made like a water bike :p
18:02:51  yeah, we have one here
18:03:09  they had to relocate it to the area around my front door because of the ballet school taking place
18:03:17  23:46:30  elliott: http://www.dansdata.com/gz084.htm   that guy has no idea how rechargable batteries work.
18:03:18  facepalm
18:03:22  ugh wtf is sgeo tlking about now
18:03:24  *talking
18:03:40  elliott: yeah, he says charging up a battery for 5 secs should not show it as completely charged
18:03:49  05:48:14  cheater-: that sequence you posted does not work from the axioms we have
18:03:49  05:48:31  it requires application of semantic meaning
18:03:50  what
18:03:55  cheater99: i wasn't agreeing with you
18:04:07  elliott: yeah, i know
18:04:17  he doesn't know how the measurement is made and why it is going to be showing up as full
18:04:22  yes, he does
18:04:27  doesn't change the fact that it is /wrong/
18:04:30  from a human point of view
18:04:37  no, he subscribes to some sort of conspiracy theory
18:04:58  category theory
18:05:02  elliott, hm?
18:05:03  he doesn't even remotely mention that it's wrong because, hey, it's a fucking battery with a non-linear charging process
18:05:15  06:29:09  and no, <=> is not acceptable directly from the axioms
18:05:15  06:29:15  the biconditional isn't even a symbol
18:05:15  06:29:19  and we don't have /\
18:05:17  06:29:23  or \/
18:05:19  OH GOD YOU HAVE TO WRITE OUT THREE SIMPLE DEFINITIONS HOLY SHIT
18:05:42  elliott: we have had to write out the definition of False once.
18:08:02  reboot tie
18:08:03  time
18:08:06 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:10:34  i didn't know elliott's tie was computerized
18:15:46  Misread "elliott's tie was compromised"; didn't know they were hacking ties already.
18:20:07 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:22:12 -!- hiato has joined.
18:27:05  fizzie: so you think elliott has ties to hacking?
18:27:22  he
18:27:49 -!- drakhan has joined.
18:28:20  drakhan is obviously a Sony lawyer
18:29:14 -!- elliott has joined.
18:29:21  http://tuomov.iki.fi/ is back up — but without his blog.
18:29:59  Oh, http://tuomov.bitcheese.net/b/ seems to be a partial archive.
18:30:13  elliott, what do you have against me saying the word sex?
18:30:18  What?
18:30:21  A filter must be malfunctioning.
18:30:24  -shutup- Shut up about sex!
18:30:27  xD
18:30:29  I did not put that in.
18:30:42  It decides what to yell at you for based on what you say + the regexp, so hmm.
18:31:12  It also hates fantasy
18:31:17  -shutup- Shut up about your fantasies!
18:31:37  Fixed the first report. It'll come into action, uh, ... whenever I restart it which is rare.
18:35:15  syp
18:35:16  sup
18:35:59  sup is me trying to get ubuntu booting
18:36:09  youbunter
18:38:39 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:44:59  ... Sony is claiming that the court has jurisdiction because github.com is in California.
18:48:55  Sony is also claiming *ownership* of all PS3s.
18:49:48  Page 21, line 9. "SCEA possesses an ownership interest in the PS3 System."
18:49:51  like, people who have bought a ps3 actually just have an expensive loan console?
18:50:04  From the complaint.
18:50:07  oklopol: Yes.
18:50:23  oklopol: They are claiming that this hack was *trespassing*.
18:50:28  seriously? :D that was a joke :P
18:50:41  i figured you actually meant something else
18:50:44  Also.
18:50:50 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:51:03  "Defendants have appropriated SCEA's property at little or no cost to them."
18:51:18  lol
18:51:23  what property
18:51:39  fuck lawyers
18:51:55  i'd have to see the TaCoS on PS3 purchases to believe that...
18:52:16 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:52:30   i'd have to see the TaCoS on PS3 purchases to believe that... < what does that mean?
18:52:42  And they are also claiming that this hack consists of cracking into someone else's computer.
18:52:56  And that it's a violation of terms of service.
18:52:59  lol
18:53:07  Said terms, you need not actually *agree* to.
18:53:16  It's the terms of service for PSN.
18:53:45  if there is some license in there that says "by turning this system on you agree that you are leasing SCEA's property for an indefinite period and will not modify etc. SCEA's property" then they can probably get away with that...
18:54:30  Deewiant, down?
18:54:45  No
18:54:47  quintopia: Because the US's laws are motherfucking insane.
18:55:15 -!- j-invariant has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:56:49  what do you think of this thing: http://sensebridge.net/projects/northpaw/
19:06:08 -!- j-invariant has joined.
19:09:09  quintopia: It's ... big.
19:09:35  haha, reddit managed to get into a Scala vs. Clojure flamewar
19:09:39  that's one I didn't expect to see
19:09:48  wtf?
19:09:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:10:29  ais523, why not
19:10:33  http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/f07sn/scala_effective_java/c1ccuk6
19:10:51 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:12:03  i remember trolling someone in one of the php channels by saying that scala runs in java
19:12:10  he couldn't handle it at all
19:12:18  ..?
19:12:22 -!- j-invariant has joined.
19:12:26  scala, it's that java app, right?
19:12:27  oh, there's a php vs. gcc row going on at the moment
19:12:32  ahahah
19:12:44  php is full of idiots.
19:12:50  ais523: got any specific links?
19:12:54  because PHP's strtod bug was using undefined behaviour in C89, which gcc exploits for better optimisations
19:13:08  yea
19:13:18  got an url to actual flamewars?
19:13:35  here's a php advocate in the war: http://blog.andreas.org/display?id=9
19:13:45  wait is it pichtler
19:13:52  Why would someone rely on undefined behavior for something crucial?
19:13:56  By accident, I guess?
19:13:58  because php?
19:14:10   oh, there's a php vs. gcc row going on at the moment <-- wait what
19:14:21  the funny thing is, the PHP code in question was a copy of a strtod function in use elsewhere
19:14:22  that is like comparing apples and bookshelfs
19:14:28  not even apples and pears
19:14:31  and it had a big comment saying "this code does not work on x87"
19:14:35  and guess where PHP tried to use it?
19:14:46  uh
19:14:46  Vorpal: it's about whose fault a bug was
19:14:49  ah
19:14:57  the PHP side is claiming it's a compiler bug, the gcc side's claiming it's a program bug
19:15:03  ais523, they tried to use it on x86?
19:15:10  why doesn't that idiot show his last name anywhere on the page
19:15:17  Vorpal: indeed, with x87 instructions as the floating point emu
19:15:19  could his family not afford a last name?
19:15:25  you only have to get one!!
19:15:33  ais523, but uh what did it expect?
19:15:42  ais523, that x87 did wronfg
19:15:45  wrong*
19:16:07  Vorpal: oh, x87 is more accurate than a normal C double
19:16:20  ais523, yes so why did they use long double then
19:16:25  they didn't, they used double
19:16:32  ais523, then I don't see...
19:16:38  but assumed that a floating point number would necessarily compare equal to itself, if not a NaN
19:16:48  that isn't actually the case in C
19:16:48  ais523, shouldn't it?
19:16:52  oh hah
19:16:53  well, C89, at least
19:17:16  because you might be comparing a value stored in memory with a value stored in the x87 registers
19:17:26  and the x87 registers are more accurate
19:17:29  right
19:17:35  copying a value from the registers to memory and back can thus change its value
19:17:43  ais523, but these days you always use SSE
19:17:45  not x87
19:17:50  unless you use long double
19:17:51  C99 specifies that you can't do that sort of thing; C89 doesn't
19:17:56  Vorpal: PHP uses x87
19:18:03  (don't ask me why, I didn't set its compiler flags)
19:18:04  ais523, unlikely on x86-64
19:18:23  this is presumably x86-32
19:18:34  yeah probably
19:19:06  anyway, I wouldn't really expect a floating point number to necessarily compare equal to itself, floating point is that insane
19:19:38  if the PHP devs did, they probably insufficiently understand floating point in C (not really surprising; /most/ people insufficiently understand floating point in C, including probably me)
19:20:16  bah
19:20:22  i bet you sufficiently understand floating point in c.
19:20:47  cheater00, are you sufficiently sure of that
19:21:03  i am sufficiently sufficient
19:21:13  ais523, anyway C99 guarantees this doesn't it?
19:21:19  and I wouldn't use C89 any more
19:21:21  There's that article, "what every computer scientist should know about floating-point numbers" or some-such.
19:21:37  fizzie, yes, I read it
19:22:27  C99 does indeed guarantee that doubles are cut down to 64 bits of precision before being compared, by default
19:22:36  there's a bunch of defines that can be used to tweak the behaviour
19:22:51  but I can't remember whether it's in a program, or just fixed defines that report what the floating-point behaviour is
19:23:03  ais523, yes and C99 is older than 10 years. C89/C90 is older than 20 years. Surely it is time to move on?
19:23:10  There are things I do not like in C99.
19:24:16  C1x is just around the corner too.
19:24:23  fizzie, what are the news in it?
19:24:37  For some values of "corner".
19:25:47  hm?
19:26:33  c1x is fully functional with type inference
19:26:43  The latest draft is not very dramatic. Multithreading and Unicode things, gets dropped finally, official compile-time asserts...
19:26:47  and it doesn't use braces.
19:26:59  fizzie, oooh compile time asserts
19:27:02  that's awesome
19:27:25  cheater00, sounds like c++202x
19:27:43  It's hopefully prettier than the existing hacky preprocessor tricks.
19:27:54  fizzie, one can only hope
19:28:06  That make a negative-sized array with a funny name or other things like that.
19:28:22  hah
19:28:44  fizzie: As part of a structure, so that it does not use up any memory at run-time.
19:29:09  Oh, and a exclusive-create mode letter ("x") for fopen, and that anonymous structure/union thing that I think many compilers already do.
19:29:25  zzo38: Sure, but the error messages are still a bit suboptimal.
19:29:30  fizzie, the anon structure is pretty useless
19:30:01  fizzie: You can make the error message display something specific using #line directive, maybe?
19:30:10  yearh
19:30:13  yeargh*
19:30:32  fizzie, how will it do multithreading I wonder
19:31:49  well, bbl
19:32:15 -!- elliottu has joined.
19:32:33  does anyone know how the ubuntu installer calculates how big a swap partition to create?
19:34:02  I have a composer friend who found out about a contest for the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible to write a composition using its text as the words. I'm trying to convince him to write and submit something using some of the less tasteful passages encouraging slave ownership, rape, etc :P
19:34:08 -!- zzo38 has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
19:34:34  do it as death metal
19:34:36  \m/
19:34:48  King James: too hardcore for you.
19:35:50  Gregor: I suppose you can use any passages, you can use less tasteful passage for part of it too, but you can also use other passages. Some of the verses are just the names so you can use that, too. I assume deuterocanonical/apocrypha are disallowed?
19:36:10  whoosh
19:36:16  Has to be from the KJB, can't be from psalms or songs.
19:36:30  Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis.
19:36:34  And ONLY that.
19:36:46  The most inspirational song EVER
19:36:51  i think a song that's just an endless droning of that section in genesis that's all A begat B begat C begat D begat E begat F begat etc. could be amusing
19:36:57  and...ninja'd
19:37:10  well, great minds think alike and all
19:37:14  Vorpal: Very traditionally, I think. Thread-local storage type declarators, and then a  with vaguely pthready creation/mutex/condvar options; and then atomic operations -- more than just sig_atomic_t -- for lockless things.)
19:38:07  quintopia: Loop it, add an irritating your-speakers-exploded-but-now-it's-silent-aand-repeat-steadily beat, and echo the fuck out of it.
19:38:19  INSTANT CHRISTIAN RAVE HIT
19:38:27  oonts oonts oonts oonts
19:38:28  Gregor: So, Psalms is also disallowed.
19:38:44  What kind of music/scales/temperaments are used in Biblical times? Can you make a music using the same kind?
19:39:37  elliottu: it should also be done in the voice of that guy from butthole surfers that did the spoken word stuff in "my brother's wife"
19:40:54  Clearly it should be Song of Solomon. Mmm, biblical erotica.
19:41:43  I hate how god damn useless #ubuntu is.
19:42:10  who is elliottu and why can I see him talk
19:42:26  elliottu is elliott with a goatee. So you know he's evil.
19:42:29  coppro: GEE I APOLOGISE FOR USING A LIVECD
19:42:38  coppro: just fuck off, stop being childish, and reignore me if I do something so INSULTING
19:42:55  OK, new idea: One singer sings the X-begat-Y section softly, while two singers sing a selection of passages that directly contradict each other, at the same time.
19:42:55  elliottu: like that?
19:43:06  coppro: Talking about /ignores: it makes you cool.
19:43:12  Wait, wait, no, I forgot: It makes you stupid.
19:43:34  lol
19:43:42  yeah, the worst thing about people worth ignoring
19:43:52  are the people who feel the need to advertise that they can't hear what the ignored person is saying
19:44:07  vorpal is a fan of that :)
19:44:39  You used a livecd? FUCKNG /IGNORED
19:44:44  :D
19:45:00  copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying.
19:45:04  Thereby defeating the point.
19:45:05  :)
19:45:08  lol
19:45:54  Oh well, 8 gigs of swap should be ENOUGH FOR EVERYBODY
19:46:30  Gregor: when you say "one singer sings" you mean "one beatboxer beatboxes" right?
19:46:49  FIVE GOLDEN RIIIIIIIIINGS
19:46:56  elliottu: hajsan
19:47:04  OH LOL LOOK IM INSTALLIN NOW ->
19:47:24  i'll come back under a different nick just to see coppro be whiny again
19:47:29  elliottu: OMG THE CD DRIVE IS THERE?
19:47:29 -!- elliottu has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:53:03 -!- variable has joined.
19:53:19  Do you, or do you not, "do you, or do you knot"?
19:53:32  [A-Za-z]{8,} matches any alphabetic character repeated at least 8 times in a row, yes?
19:54:01 * quintopia uses people instead of regex checkers
19:54:21  quintopia: Do you want the same letter repeated or different letter?
19:54:30  same letter
19:54:39  yeah that won't work will it
19:54:42  how?
19:54:51  Can you use back references?
19:55:05  any legal perl regex is fine i think
19:55:38  Then see if using back references will do?
19:55:51  now i have to look up how to do that again :/
19:55:56  http://arxiv.org/abs/1008.0666
19:56:00  :D
19:57:58  quintopia, that will be the same as [A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z]
19:58:20   Vorpal: Very traditionally, I think. Thread-local storage type declarators, and then a  with vaguely pthready creation/mutex/condvar options; and then atomic operations -- more than just sig_atomic_t -- for lockless things.) <-- ah
19:59:23  variable: so how about ([a-zA-Z])\1{7,}
19:59:38   copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying. <-- that sounds like elliott
19:59:52  quintopia, I think that would work
19:59:52 * copumpkin yawns
20:00:01 * variable carves copumpkin 
20:00:09  no
20:00:13  I'm not a pumpkin
20:00:15  I'm a copumpkin
20:00:23  in dual-land, copumpkin carve you!
20:00:26 * copumpkin laughs evilly
20:00:37 * variable is a const - I can't be carved
20:00:43  copumpkin, he could still carve you. not as in cutting but as in wanting
20:00:52  crave?
20:00:57  oh right
20:01:03  copumpkin, I'm just too sleepy
20:01:12  same here :(
20:01:19  and my VPN is broken
20:01:25  it is tim to sleep soon
20:01:28  time*
20:01:30  or should be
20:01:51  except my sleep schedule is fucked up
20:02:51  Vorpal, join the club
20:03:05  Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?
20:03:09  Vorpal, me
20:03:14  ah
20:03:22  Although it's getting better... no it's not
20:03:23  as long as it is fixed to next week
20:03:39  It's alternating between going to sleep at a normal time, and staying up all night
20:03:56  ah fluttering
20:04:09  Sgeo, mine is just moving around all over the place
20:04:11  I need to be awake Friday. I don't feel like meeting up with her when I'm too tired to care
20:04:13  with no reasonable pattern
20:04:24  I want to be awake when I'm around her
20:04:32  oh you are in love?
20:05:02  variable: highlight me with a message containing an expression that regex should match
20:05:08  I don't think it's at the point where it can be called "love" yet
20:05:30  I'm also not sure if she's that interested in me. Or, well, she gives mixed signals somtimes
20:06:04  Vorpal, if you dropped the h, you'd sound like zzo38
20:06:23  Sgeo, yes but I'm not him
20:09:50  variable: the regex doesn't work
20:10:50  quintopia, oh sorry - I went away for a bit
20:10:57  let me play with some things and I'll let you kno
20:11:19  hmm, PHP has 13 different sort functions: http://us2.php.net/manual/en/array.sorting.php
20:13:31  php has the shittiest stdlib ever
20:14:54  ais523, and none of them are stable
20:14:58  also uh, random sort!?
20:17:00  Vorpal, I noticed that too - it twas funny
20:17:58  not really a sort :P
20:21:04  also, all of them are in-plae
20:21:04  *in-place
20:22:54  I wish I could make XChat /away me when I close the lid of my laptop.
20:23:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:23:25  it's open source
20:23:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:23:59  Huh, PHP has a sort function for user-defined orderings
20:24:19  I thought PHP had either no or extremely crappy support for first-class functions.
20:25:46  They added closures in PHP 5.3.0.
20:25:53  oh no, it had that long before that
20:25:58  they have a "callback" type
20:26:12  well, you can use second-class functions for sort callbacks just fine
20:26:16  which until 5.3.0 was a string containing function name
20:26:35  or an array containing object or class name as the 0th index and function name as the first
20:26:54  Right, they just added proper (or I don't know how proper they are, but at least proper-looking) anonymous functions in 5.3.0.
20:27:07  yeah, and they started calling them closures
20:27:18  because they're confused about computarrzzz
20:27:42  and then they added the use() cancer so that they can actually be closures.
20:29:35  They also have a rather strange sort of nested functions; if you do function foo() { function bar() { ... } } then you can bar() from anywhere, but only after calling foo() once.
20:30:04  yes.
20:30:18  use()?
20:31:43  yea, it's like using a variable in a lambda without lambdaing it
20:32:15  f = \x.x+y         <==>   f = function(x) use(y) { return x+y; }
20:32:17  or something
20:32:36  add dollar signs everywhere
20:32:38  Crap, just saw some false information, than a link to Snopes discrediting it. My understanding though, is that if you receive information that you only mentally discredit later, it still gets stuck in the mind as "true"
20:32:53  f = \x.x+y         <==>   $f $= $function($x) $use($y) ${ $return $x$+$y$; $}
20:33:13  Sgeo: oh damnnnnnnn
20:33:25  php is mad .....
20:33:29  Oh, and even pre 5.3.0 (since 4.0.1) they had this thing for anonymous functions: string create_function(string $args , string $code)
20:33:42  what the hell
20:33:43  You give it a bit of code as a string, and it defines a randomly named new function and returns the name.
20:33:57  yea
20:34:00  Then you can pass the new name into something that takes a callback.
20:34:17  they also do a shitload via eval()
20:34:26  which is fucking funnay.
20:35:33  create_function will waste memory though, there is no way to delete a function in PHP, or to override one which exists.
20:35:48  zzo38, ooh, like Forth!
20:35:50  However, it is possible to pass an array with an object, as a callback. So you can do like that instead.
20:36:00  
20:37:27  zzo38: php wasting memory? CAN'T BE
20:37:56  ARE YOU SURE?
20:37:56 * Sgeo wonders if Objective-J is decent
20:38:01  hah
20:38:06  cheater00: PHP is also slow. (However, it is fast enough to run my IRC client, and it actually does this well.)
20:39:00  you've gotta be joking me
20:39:04  a php irc client.
20:39:22  I am not joking.
20:39:45  cheater00, meet zzo38.
20:40:03 -!- ellioppro has joined.
20:40:15  it installed, what are the chances
20:40:21  and i only had to boot into a non-graphical environment and plug in ethernet _once_
20:40:41  ellioppro, when did you two merge into a superorganism.
20:41:11  Phantom_Hoover: I'm irritating coppro by circumventing his ignore, since he keeps doing the age-old IRC dickwaddery of bringing up that I'm ignored constantly.
20:41:18  zzo38: do you have an eval command there?
20:41:51  ellioppro: IS SUPERDUPERDRIVE YOURS???
20:41:52  ellioppro, I CAN'T HEAR YOU I'M IGNORING YOU
20:42:02  cheater00: for N hours, yes.
20:42:04  cheater00: There is a single eval command in the program, but it is used only for parsing the initialization file.
20:42:06  ellioppro, remember when you ignored me? You were furious when I curcumvented it
20:42:16  Sgeo: Not "furious" ...
20:42:17  And you kept reminding me that I was on ignore
20:42:21  I just told you to stop doing it.
20:42:21  zzo38: can i somehow store numbers into your php process?
20:42:22  And only lines starting with <
20:42:24  And ... no I didn't.
20:42:45  How many times did you mention that, due to the ignore, things were better?
20:42:46  cheater00: What do you mean? The eval does not take any input remotely.
20:43:02  zzo38: yeah ok.. but say i wanted to store a value that is later kept in the memory of your php process
20:43:07  how would i do it?
20:43:11  Sgeo: Zero?
20:43:17  ellioppro, more than that
20:43:25  Unless my memory is failing
20:43:45  Do you remember the dates?
20:43:51  Sgeo: lies, ellioppro never ignores anyone
20:44:04  ellioppro is everyone's friend.
20:44:09  yes. i am
20:44:14  ^
20:44:16  download faster, you fucking computer
20:44:22  welllllll, except for Phantom_Hoover
20:44:23  cheater00: As far as I know you cannot do that. (You can send things and it is stored in the scrollback of PuTTY)
20:44:40  (PHIRC does use PuTTY to actually display everything in colors and so on)
20:44:58  12:32:38  Crap, just saw some false information, than a link to Snopes discrediting it. My understanding though, is that if you receive information that you only mentally discredit later, it still gets stuck in the mind as "true"
20:45:02  zzo38: do you get any commands that respond to triggers or something?
20:45:04  Sgeo: OH MY GOD YOU WILL HOLD THIS MISUNDERSTANDING FOREVER
20:45:08  What's this about Phantom_Hoover?
20:45:18  Phantom_Hoover: ellioppro is not his friend
20:45:41  cheater00: The program will respond automatically to CTRL+A commands: FINGER PING TIME USERINFO VERSION
20:45:47 -!- ellioppro has changed nick to copprelliott.
20:45:55  coppro: do you prefer this version?
20:46:07  cheater00, candidly, I don't think he's too fond of cheater00 either.
20:46:15  maybe he has .*e.*l.*l.*i.*o.*t.*t.* on ignore
20:46:26  (But only if /SET ANSWER + is set)
20:46:32  Phantom_Hoover: copprelliott is very fond of cheater00
20:46:39  zzo38: oh
20:46:46  zzo38: that's not good
20:47:05  zzo38: you should have at least one command that takes the message, stores it as a number, and prints it or something
20:47:28  cheater00: Why is such a thing necessary?
20:47:39  it's necessary. no explanation given.
20:48:14  Here is the code, you can look at it, and make your own modifications if that is what you want to do:  http://sprunge.us/QeLb
20:49:12  ubuntu's trackpad driver sucks
20:49:41  i've had some problems with it
20:49:46  what do you have problems with?
20:49:59  it doesn't seem to do any multitouch, prolly i need another driver
20:50:05  i can't, for instance,s elect things
20:50:08  *instance, select
20:50:11  copprelliott: also, make sure your cpu is running on normal speed
20:50:14  not on speedstep
20:50:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:50:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
20:50:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:50:18  why
20:50:30  i'd prefer to keep the fan down + conserve power usage.
20:52:13 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:52:25  because mine always boots into slowest_mode
20:53:22  the cpu scales up as it is used, i see no issue
20:54:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:54:36 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:55:14 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:56:57  incidentally
20:57:04  the superdrive makes a nice cd case
20:57:19  i have a portable, unplugged USB drive to put ubuntu on any macbook air! kinda like a usb stick, except gigantic. :P
20:57:26  tl;dr too lazy to put in a box
20:58:45 -!- copprelliott has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:00:00  Do you like dc?
21:01:36  Why did coppro put him on ignore in the first place?
21:01:49  because elliot is not shit
21:01:51  t
21:02:52  What is the difference of cheater00 cheater99 cheater- ?
21:03:10  we're the holy trinity
21:03:40  The service provider is all the same.
21:04:25  truly, your cunning is remarkable.
21:04:34  WE HAVE A NON-TRINITARIAN HERE
21:05:18  http://9gag.com/gag/67468/ Japan has improved upon the slip-n-slide.
21:05:57  " Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis." <<< surely modern bibles just have a few diagrams for these
21:06:10  like KJB
21:06:10  modern bibles LOL
21:07:32  Gregor: The text is even more WTF.
21:07:42  oklopol: Modern Bibles are the same they just have different translations. Some also have footnotes, and some have deutrocanonical books, too.
21:07:54  pikhq: Translate for us :P
21:07:59  Some might have diagrams, though.
21:08:36  Gregor: "*something I can't read* Crank 2009! Milk! Construction! Explosions!" on the left.
21:08:46  " are the people who feel the need to advertise that they can't hear what the ignored person is saying" <<< no i think it's even worse when the ignored people start telling the ignorers how childish they are... wait, i'm even worse
21:09:37  This event is known to cause what some call a "milk explosion"
21:09:54  Gregor: "September~October 'The Autumn of Sports' An example photograph‽" on the right.
21:10:04  So, yeah. WTF?
21:11:04  Oh, sorry, I completely misparsed a bit of that. s/Milk/Tits/
21:11:28  lawl
21:12:49 -!- elliott has joined.
21:12:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:13:00  " Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?" <<< good morning
21:13:09  sgeo is holding an orgy?
21:13:16 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest78959.
21:13:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:13:52  13:05:57  " Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis." <<< surely modern bibles just have a few diagrams for these
21:13:56  that would be ... amazing
21:14:10  especially w/ the incest
21:14:15  Stick it on a time line. :)
21:14:31  no, genealogical tree
21:14:48 -!- Guest78959 has changed nick to elliott.
21:14:50 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
21:14:50 -!- elliott has joined.
21:15:39  elliott: Aren't you glad you've hidden your IP, which is 91.104.236.154?
21:16:00  Gregor: Extremely.
21:16:23  My hostname is codu.org. Jealous much?
21:16:40  Maybe the reason you put "@unaffiliated/elliott" is to see if you are login to the services??
21:17:02  Gregor: You should set up a fake ident daemon (there's tons of them) on codu.org, and configure it to tell the server that your username is whatever your email username is.
21:17:09  Gregor: So your hostname would be your email address.
21:17:16  THIS IS M Y IDEA (C) ME FOREVER--FOREVER
21:17:43  I want to put my hostname "zzo38computer.cjb.net" (it does resolve to the computer I connected from) but they will not do that.
21:18:16  Who are "they"?
21:18:28  THE MAN
21:18:37  elliott: The Freenode.
21:18:39  lol @ elliott claiming he never repeatedly told someone they were ignored :E
21:19:02  oklopol, oh i don't deny that
21:19:08  i just deny i did it the last time i ignored sgeo
21:19:18  zzo38: *The* Freenode?
21:19:25  elliott: Yes.
21:19:30  Are they a cabal?
21:19:37  elliott: I don't know.
21:21:02  http://9gag.com/gag/67468/ <<< but what if you accidentally have an erection and get stuck between the girls
21:21:09  so elliott
21:21:16  that would be embarrassing
21:21:18  are you going to install every language possible on your ubuntu now?
21:21:29  oklopol: xD
21:21:33  cheater99: not really
21:21:39  oklopol: what if the erection gets stuck between the girls?
21:22:15  elliott: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf
21:22:41  ais523: yay, another paper i can't understand
21:22:43  " i just deny i did it the last time i ignored sgeo" <<< oh well possible
21:22:50  well i probably can
21:22:50  elliott: it's the one I wanted to link you to earlier but couldn't find a legal copy of
21:22:55  but i haven't, yet, expended the effort to
21:23:07  ais523: i like how you have to work to find a legal version of your own paper.
21:23:16  the bottom of page 7 is amusing
21:23:20  i don't actually recall you doing that with Sgeo, but you have definitely done it! maybe it was cool back then tho, dunno
21:23:51  so umm
21:23:51  note that that isn't just "one such example", but the simplest known example
21:24:01  that took quite a bit of esoprogramming to find
21:24:11  I WISH I COULD SIDUHGDSFGJKHGSJKFGHLSKJFLHL;GKFDJGDSKDS SELECT TEXT
21:24:37  ais523: what uni are you on again?
21:24:52  Manchingham.
21:25:16  "on"
21:25:23  elliott, why does coppro have you on ignore?
21:25:39  apparently the channel is better without me, i.e. the channel is almost silent
21:25:40  i was just thinking about stuff and realized i might know how to prove this thing i've spent like 40 million hours trying to prove... and then i quickly stopped thinking about it before realizing what the reason for *this* idea not working will be, tl;dr, i can never think about math again :(
21:26:25  haha oklopol, you are reduced to liberal arts!!!!!!
21:26:37  11:45:00  copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying.
21:26:37  11:45:04  Thereby defeating the point.
21:26:44  Not necessarily.
21:26:52  ais523: I'm going to play Quadrapassel until you tell me how to get selection working.
21:27:07  or maybe i need to change my branch of math to something far enough
21:27:13  Get selection working on what?
21:27:44  If you want to be able to ignore the dross someone comes out with 90% of the time and get context when someone else actually pays them any heed, it's worthwhile.
21:28:13  what's http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf? opening pdf's from the internets is just so much work
21:28:21  finally
21:28:21  ais523:
21:28:24  ugh
21:28:33  ais523:
21:28:35  seq : com × exp → exp is sequencing of command with expression, denoted by “;” when used in infix
21:28:35  notation, resulting in an expression with side effects;
21:28:36  yes?
21:28:46  ais523: i like fig 2 on page 8.
21:28:54  ais523: "first we build this comprehensive cage to put side-effects in, then we poke a big hole in it"
21:28:57  oklopol: my second paper as a PhD student
21:29:10  elliott: it's meant to be a simple imperative language
21:29:13  Phantom_Hoover: i only use ignore in order to be in control of the times of looking at messages, so i don't pass out from anger when some retard is telling me how math works
21:29:18  we didn't cage side-effects at all, except via variable scope
21:29:31  ais523: shush :P
21:29:53  and therefore actually look at all the messages later
21:29:57   Phantom_Hoover: i only use ignore in order to be in control of the times of looking at messages, so i don't pass out from anger when some retard is telling me how math works ← I use it to get rid of people who insist on butting into irrelevant conversations.
21:30:21  I imagine a 38 is involved somehow.
21:30:54  ais523: oh cool, then i might open it actually
21:31:08  unlike the one before, I actually did most of the actual research that lead to that paper
21:31:09  hmm, what's a good way to figure out what touchpad driver I am using?
21:31:14  although it was only about half written by me
21:31:14  we've been talking publishing some of my stuff once i get my master's finished
21:31:40  so currently publications are like the biggest thing in my life, you're basically a god now
21:31:54  in academia, publications are all anyone cares about, it seems
21:31:58  that and money
21:32:16 * elliott goes about installing Chrome
21:32:21  sorry, Firefox; you're too hateful
21:33:28  i have a feeling Ubuntu is going to be able to do almost, but not entirely, not what i want with my touchpad
21:34:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:34:37  ais523: i don't really have the same experience, people are so damn modest... it's like they don't even pay attention to what they do... for instance today person X said he has book Y in his shelf, and prof Z said "oh, that's mine"; i asked "you mean yours as in you're the author, or as in you own it?", he said he owned it. ten minutes later, he looks at the cover and goes "oh right, i actually did write this"
21:34:56  :D
21:34:58  that's amazing
21:35:01  i aspire to be prof Z
21:35:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:35:10  (he was a coauthor and it was more than 10 years old but anyway)
21:35:19  Ah good. David Touretzky is getting involved in the PS3 BS.
21:35:35  Why is David Touretzky?
21:35:37  s/Why/Who/
21:36:58  Professor of CS at Carnegie Mellon. Quite involved in the DeCSS litigation and a pain in the ass for the Church of Scientology.
21:37:05  great ... i need to install Flash
21:37:11   i aspire to be prof Z ← I recall a story about one of the Cayley-era mathematicians who told someone the first thing in his proof was wrong, and then the person showed him a proof that he himself had done and forgotten about.
21:37:19  :D
21:37:20  (he's responsible for many, many leaks of CoS doctrine)
21:37:36  oklopol: that's just false humbleness
21:37:44  *awesome
21:38:08  elliott: i have something good for you
21:38:19  elliott: there's a ff plugin that installs the RIGHT version of flash for you
21:38:36  what bullshit is that, i have a package manager
21:38:41  it has the 64-bit flash in it
21:38:44  yea, the one from the package manager sucks dicks
21:38:48  no it doesn't
21:38:50  not as of recently
21:38:53  it's the native 64-bit one now
21:38:55  enjoy your 1 fps
21:39:01  cheater99: umm, it's the 32-bit one that did that
21:39:02  idiot
21:39:08  or you could just install flash-aid
21:39:18  idiot yourself :p
21:39:36  right, flash-aid has secret access to a magical adobe version that fixes everything
21:39:45  yup
21:39:46  unlike the new 64-bit native one that Adobe released only a month or two ago
21:39:50  yup
21:39:51  uh huh
21:39:59  dyurrrr
21:40:00  ok you're clearly trolling at this juncture
21:40:06  yes i am
21:40:10  because you weren't being nice
21:40:15  also, i don't use firefox.
21:40:19  lrn2humans
21:40:43  hmm, what do you use then?
21:41:10  chrome. usually.
21:41:21  b-but
21:41:26  chrome is missing so many things
21:41:36  mostly user interface things
21:41:41  God, XChat's ignore window is badly designed.
21:41:44  vertical tabs, tab unloading..
21:41:57  It has the "Clear" button right where you'd expect the "Close" button.
21:42:03  " oklopol: that's just false humbleness" <<< possibly, but it was some sort of survey or dunno, name was something like automata theory 134; actually may just have been a collection of papers, and he mentioned he was an author as a joke, since he happened to be compiling it now that i think about it :D
21:42:03  Phantom_Hoover: /ignore foo*!*@* all
21:42:21  elliott, yes, I know.
21:42:36  elliott: you're well versed in the ignore
21:43:10  elliott: i'm going to ignore you now because i don't like the way you think
21:43:17  ok
21:43:45  :D
21:44:29  i mean it's not the things you say, or the way you say it, it's just what i can tell from the order and structure in which the facts come out, you think in a very insulting way.
21:44:31  *them
21:44:38  *from
21:44:39  xD
21:44:40  god shitted
21:44:49  oklopol, I'm going to ignore you because I think there are too many Finns on the channel and I can't handle all of them.
21:44:59  that's 100% understandable
21:45:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:45:25  Phantom_Hoover: Then ignore *!*@*.fi ? Probably not the best idea, though.
21:45:44  elliott, I am going to ignore you because you are English and I'm contractually obligated to hate you.
21:45:56  okay
21:46:10  We can all type in English.
21:46:17  no we kant]
21:46:23  there was a finntroll on #math once, and TRWBW was like "k, there goes that country forever"
21:46:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | I'll suck up ALL your fleep, baby! | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
21:46:55  elliott: i'm going to ignore you because you keep on calling me a troll, and i don't like honest people
21:47:04  i forget, is trwbw the bad one or the good one
21:47:06  cheater99: ok
21:47:22  Gregor, I am going to ignore you because you are fairly English.
21:47:22  elliott: i don't know because i don't know who the other one you mean is
21:47:27  trwbw is the bad one and good one at the same time
21:47:32  oklopol: i don't
21:47:35  he's an total idiot though.
21:47:39  Phantom_Hoover: But I'm a Jew! A filthy, filthy Semite!
21:47:40  i'm just asking whether he's bad or good
21:47:40  oh
21:47:42  trwbw is a very special person
21:47:42  prolly good then
21:47:44  re cheater99
21:47:52  cheater99: O, yes, you prefer cheating, isn't it? Well, I want you to please stop cheating. (I will not force you to stop, or put you on ignore, though.)
21:47:55  elliott: enjoy your TRWBW
21:47:56  indeed
21:48:05 -!- elliott has changed nick to coprophiliac.
21:48:07  hi coppro
21:48:08  Gregor, no amount of Jewishness can compensate for being English!
21:48:10  having a nice day today?
21:48:30  zzo38: i will put you on ignore because you refuse to put me on ignore. i will unignore you just as soon as i find out you have ignored me.
21:48:38  It's like homeopathy!
21:49:10  coprophiliac: way to build on linking that scat porn thing
21:49:26  >_>
21:49:27  you can't
21:49:28  prove
21:49:29  ANYTHING
21:49:32  oklopol: i will ignore you because i will ignore you
21:49:40  i will ignore you iff i ignore you
21:49:40  :D
21:49:45  :D
21:49:56 -!- coprophiliac has changed nick to tarski.
21:50:00  taken
21:50:01  what shit
21:50:02  so could everyone here give me their addresses in pm
21:50:03 -!- tarski has changed nick to elliott.
21:50:10  like irl addresses
21:50:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to banach.
21:50:11  oklopol: what kind of addresses
21:50:13  oh
21:50:15  why
21:50:18  oklopol: www.god.com
21:50:25  yeah, wtf
21:50:26  yours i have already so i don't see why i need to answer
21:50:32  oklopol: no, we moved
21:50:33  :>
21:50:37  twice actually.
21:50:44  okay, then do give
21:50:45 -!- banach has changed nick to sierpinski.
21:50:49  no :D
21:50:50  why do you want my address now oklopololopol
21:50:54  gimme yours
21:50:56  i'll come visit
21:51:14  okay
21:51:20  cheater99: not part of the deal
21:51:31  oklopol: well it's either this or no deal
21:51:40  oklopol: are you really in finland btw?
21:51:52  or is that just a bnc
21:51:54  of some sort
21:52:05  well just in case
21:52:14  just in case what?
21:52:22  just in case you have nowhere to send out anthrax?
21:52:46  sweet, sound doesn't work
21:52:51  just in case i'm in the neighborhood and want human company, ofc
21:53:05  elliott: that shouldn't be too hard to fix, they do that on purpose to weed out 'posers'
21:53:14  j-invariant: xD
21:53:18  OK fine I put cheater99 on ignore......
21:53:25   OK fine I put cheater99 on ignore......
21:53:34  ok fine unignored
21:53:40  YAY
21:53:41  flip flop
21:53:47  :>
21:54:34  I'm going to put j-invariant on my watchlist for ignoring for suspected Englishness.
21:54:55  i was given no addresses :\
21:54:59 -!- sierpinski has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:55:29  Because they said so........
21:57:14  what's wrong with having an oklo ring your doorbell
21:57:23  RING RING
21:57:27  here comes oklop
21:57:30  *-p
21:58:57 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:11  cheater99: i'm really in finland
21:59:13  he's like krampus at your door
21:59:14  also
21:59:14  <1> i cheater99;
21:59:28  yay got first address
21:59:38  can someone tell zzo38 to unignore me now?
22:00:03  Now I don't want to filter it anymore.
22:00:04  cheater99: but won't you then ignore him?
22:00:54  wait what?
22:01:17  Phantom_Hoover: and why do you ignore the English?
22:01:40  ais523, because otherwise I am not allowed to live in Scotland without a visa.
22:01:53  ah
22:01:58  oklopol: no, this was a one-time event
22:02:08  I looked at the log file, and I realized that I switched off the filter at the time which they told them to tell me to stop, it is coincidence, though, that it happened at the same time.
22:02:10  cheater99: ah
22:02:26  Phantom_Hoover: well, scotland is better at everything but football, and I don't care about football
22:02:31  so why don't you just look down on us intead?
22:02:35  *instead
22:02:47  scotland has HAGGIS
22:02:50  yum
22:03:00  cheater99: it also has a sane education system and a sane legal system
22:03:06  which is possibly more important
22:03:09  ais523, we also have a worse life expectancy.
22:03:34  haggis is the awesome
22:03:35  ais523: and, HAGGIS.
22:03:52  Phantom_Hoover: really? that surprises me
22:04:06  ais523, we invented the deep-fried Mars Bar.
22:04:11  unless the stereotypes about scots and healthy eating are actually true, which would surprise me even more
22:04:14  Yes, we have a lower life expectancy.
22:04:15  I tend not to believe in stereotypes
22:04:36  and although I know you invented the deep-fried mars bar, I thought that was just for selling to tourists
22:04:58  hmm, wait, are we in an antiflamewar?
22:05:05  I'd better go home before it gets even worse
22:05:07  bye everyone
22:05:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:05:50  I should point out at this point that I am not very Scottish at all.
22:07:01  what does that mean
22:14:12  okoploop: My address is too easy to find that I'd bother distribatibuting it, but don't you already approximately know?
22:16:03  "Finland".
22:16:04  i know which town you live in
22:16:17  but yeah i know where to find you
22:16:31  and i have plans for a few others as well
22:16:38  How... ominous.
22:17:03  :D
22:17:08  oklopol: is it true that children aged 11 drink vodka in finland by the glass
22:17:32  "Crazed student kidnaps 4, uses them for insane experiment."
22:18:00  i remember we drank one glass of vodka each when i was 10 or something, with a friend, but i didn't start drinking until i was like 15
22:18:03  or maybe 14
22:18:29  They do seem to start younger (12?) nowadays, though.
22:18:32  but some 11yo's certainly drink a lot, i think they do in every country
22:18:49  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sNge0Ywz-M
22:18:51  this is fun
22:18:56  he writes fibonacci in minecraft
22:19:35  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka_belt ← I did not know that was a term.
22:20:35  so umm, i think my idea works
22:20:57  for the problem i've been trying to solve
22:21:01  j-invariant, I wish he'd had monsters on.
22:21:13  now i can't continue thinking about it because i'm so excited
22:21:14  ...
22:21:23  Creepers exploding on the data bus would be a novel excuse for computer failure.
22:22:19  :D
22:22:37  "Creepers on the Data Bus", yet another band name.
22:22:55  Or a really weird euphemism.
22:23:07  "Sorry, I can't come today; I've got the creepers on my data bus, if you know what I mean."
22:23:10  i'd like to creep on HER data bus
22:23:22  creepers on the data bus is my meat loaf cover band
22:24:26 -!- elliott has joined.
22:24:47  This is better.
22:25:27  ubuntu suck cess?
22:26:35  Success enough. Tweaking things can come later.
22:26:39  elliott, creepers on the data bus: the best excuse for computer failure ever?
22:26:42  Touchpad isn't working perfectly but I can refine it gradually.
22:26:44  Phantom_Hoover: YES.
22:27:10  Now: can I adapt it to get out of homework?
22:27:34  I've already tried "I wrote it on a flash drive, then I dropped it and the partition table fell out!"
22:28:24  Phantom_Hoover: Bring in a melted-in-the-oven floppy, and then just say "well *now* I know why they call them floppies!"
22:28:40  Heh.
22:29:05  "I have erectile dysfunction... but hey, at least I know why they call them floppies now!"
22:36:06 * Sgeo goes to play EteRNA
22:37:45 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:38:57 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:40:35  Sgeo, please tell me that's a game in which you play as a cell.
22:40:56  fisch,
22:40:57 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:41:09 -!- elliott has joined.
22:41:12  ...or double fisch?
22:41:29  It's a game where you try to design RNA molecules
22:42:01  wouldn't this cooperative action game be great where you have a bunch of people that are a cellular automaton, and everyone must behave according to the local rule, or CHAOS ENSUES
22:42:23  or single-player adventure mode
22:42:27  where you are *one* cell
22:43:01  Lagerholm estimate is in single digit number of days...
22:43:18  our cellular automata course started
22:43:53  sofar we've done some basic cantor topology stuff, proved a few things about neighborhoods, and looked at golly simulations for hours
22:44:04  3M allocations from China marked as new (less than 5 days ago).
22:44:15  Ilari: :D
22:45:13  did you know cellular automata look really pretty when you run them? this was news to me, i just knew their theory was pretty
22:45:40  APNIC: 2.39 /8s in RIR Pool
22:45:56  oklopol: yes i knew this
22:46:02  oklopol: mr. wolfram
22:46:14  i read wolfram's book once but he didn't mention they look pretty when run
22:46:23  cantor topology??
22:46:26  he just said they look really IMPORTANT and FUNDAMENTAL
22:46:38  There is still ~20 day spread between the Lagerhom and Houston estimates (due to differing thresholds)...
22:46:40  j-invariant: one of the names of the product topology of Z
22:46:43  erm
22:46:45  S^Z
22:46:45  what
22:46:54  what does it have to do with CA?
22:46:56  because it's topologically equivalent to cantor sets
22:46:57  erm
22:47:02  CA is all about topology
22:47:05  really?
22:47:09  erm yes
22:47:18  well
22:47:23  please tell me what the connection is
22:47:45  the galois connection!
22:47:49  i can try, but i'll need to come up with a concrete example
22:47:54  hmmhmm
22:48:12  Basically, it is all up to APNIC on when IANA pool is going to deplete...
22:48:18  so say all finite patterns have a preimage, then "by compactness", all configurations have a preimage
22:48:23  an application of topology right there
22:48:37  huh
22:48:42  because it's S^Z is a compact space, and finite patterns can be made converge into your configuration
22:49:34  so preimages of them have a converging subsequence (by compactness) that converges to an X such that X has to have that limit configuration as its image
22:49:34  i wish my trackpad wouldn't freeze up if i move it for too long
22:49:40  until i move away for a second and restart moving
22:49:48  did you follow that? i can do it more clearly
22:50:02  (i think)
22:52:15  i'll try to improvise: let G be a CA function with a quiescent state q such that G(q, ..., q) = q, such that for all "finite configurations" c there is a c' such that G(c') = c, where finite configuration = finitely many non-quiescents
22:53:14  now, consider an arbitrary configuration, also called c for some reason, take a sequence of finite configurations c_i converging to it (why can i do this?), and for each of them a preimage c'_i
22:53:40  then, take a converging subsequence of c'_i
22:54:18  call that say (d_i), we still know G(d_i) converges to c
22:54:29  because G(d_i) is a subsequence of c_i
22:54:50  now, because d_i converges, also G(d_i) converges, because G is continuous
22:55:30  but we know limits commute with continuous functions, so c = lim G(d_i) = G(lim d_i)
22:55:45  therefore, the limit of the d_i is a preimage of c
22:56:50  I like the way the channel can segue into advanced mathematics in a matter of seconds.
22:56:55  Last time APNIC allocated at something like 2.1 or 2.2 /8s, which is about 0.2 to 0.3 /8s left...
22:56:58  got it? this illustrates the techniques, but in this case you could just open up the meanings of the topological terms, since there's so little of them used
22:56:59  oklopol always seems to be involved.
22:57:05 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
22:57:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:57:11  that wasn't very advanced :D
22:57:12  In number of addresses, that's about 4 million.
22:57:34  oklopol: it had limits and ' in it
22:57:36  ADVANCED
22:57:47  j-invariant: did you know CA are exactly the shift-commuting continuous functions from S^Z to S^Z?
22:58:16  shift turns configuration x into its left-shifted image, as you might have guessed
22:58:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao.).
22:58:39  and shift commuting is of course that it doesn't matter whether you apply the function before or after the shift
22:58:40  4 million... And we are down 3 million in last 5 days...
22:58:54  oklopol: that makes sense
22:59:19  Who is using all these IPs?
22:59:47  j-invariant: that's actually a sort of trivial thing, in this symposiom I TALKED IN, there was this presentation where they basically just extracted that from some basic category theory for a much larger class of things than just CA, without really doing much
22:59:57  but it's a lot of fun, and that's the reason topology is useful
23:00:19  for instance, if a CA is reversible, then its inverse is also a CA function
23:00:29  how does that follow from topology and that characterization?
23:00:37  Sgeo: China.
23:00:52  erm, is asking questions annoying btw, it seems i've started doing that :D
23:01:05  not really
23:01:23  it's basically a nicer form of "obviously"
23:01:25  i guess
23:01:37  Ilari: Jeeze.
23:02:52  If APNIC uses 2.2 as alloc threshold this time, that would likely mean exhaustion next week.
23:03:40  The reserves holding this month seem rather unlikely...
23:03:59  DAMMIT CHINA
23:04:12  As it was last month, it's *all* a matter of when APNIC feels like allocating.
23:04:26  Could easily happen right now.
23:05:00  i wanna take over apnic
23:05:01  MWAHAHAHA
23:05:06  j-invariant: answer, since you didn't answer my first question either: S^Z is a compact space, so the inverse of a continuous bijection is continuous (basic topological result), and shift commuting should be obvious
23:05:12  Ilari: question, do APNIC _know_ what doing that will result in? :D
23:05:54  S^Z being compact is a fun exercise if you haven't played with this stuff
23:06:04  what is S?
23:06:11  oh just the state set
23:06:15  arbitrary finite set
23:06:21  ok
23:06:25  sorry about that, i forget to mention things
23:06:34  elliott: They are all *very* well aware that IPv4 depletion happens insanely soon.
23:06:49  pikhq: so is it possible that APNIC will hold back just to shut up doomsday prophets? :D
23:07:07  elliott: If they "hold back", we *might* get another month out of IPv4.
23:07:22  pikhq: yeah, but would _you_ give the order "MAKE THE ALLOCATION!"?
23:07:30  Vodka looks interesting
23:07:31  Yes.
23:07:53  How long can APNIC hold out for?
23:08:09  Vodka looks dead
23:08:22  Sgeo: Not long!
23:08:35  And not worth discussing.
23:09:11  We've likely got a bit over a year untiil *every* RIR is out...
23:09:23  what Sgeo is trying to say is, he INGESTED the vodka
23:09:54  It is more like they already have been holding back for at least a month...
23:11:16  And if the scary allocation rates shown on December continue after new year's, the extra address pool is going to deplete in no time (forcing allocation).
23:11:35  this is gonna be great
23:11:54  Waiting a month, their RIR pool would run SERIOUSLY low.
23:11:54  is there a site to host a PDF, like imgur?
23:11:54  j-invariant: did you lost interest, i was hoping i could lecture about this all night :D
23:11:57  *lose
23:12:12  oklopol: I am interested in it but I would like to start at the beginning
23:12:28  j-invariant: filebin.ca throws anything you throw at it ... when it's up
23:12:43  j-invariant: foobin can of course do pdfs... but you need a server, and also me to have written it
23:12:44  already
23:14:06  j-invariant: we are very close to the beginning, if you're fluent in topology; but i suppose that's not necessarily the case
23:15:37  basically: 1. S^Z is compact (special case of tychonoff) 2. CA are the continuous and shift-commuting functions 3. examples of using these ideas in proofs; i started at 3
23:16:24  oklopol: I know the definitions of topology but not the theorems like tychonoff. I can learn it another time though.
23:17:26  j-invariant: i was joking about lecturing all night, don't worry
23:17:47  oklopol: oh :(
23:18:14  erm, would you like a lecture?
23:18:19  of corse
23:18:23  :D
23:18:33  no one EVER wants a lecture!
23:19:13  Sgeo: so have you given up on ur again
23:19:17  i can't prove tychonoff. that's crazy shit. i can prove S^Z compact directly though. i think
23:20:30  it's easy if we already know that CA characterization, but hmmhmm
23:20:40  maybe my numbering was wrong!
23:20:52  i haven't actually had to implement this theory
23:20:59  i've just read other people's code
23:21:10  Hmm... About 1 billion endpoint devices and about 625 trillion IPv6 subnetworks allocated...
23:21:33  okay so first of all we should probably start with S^Z being metrizable
23:21:55  that is, you can implement the topology with a metric
23:22:59  oklopol: which metric?
23:23:04  one such metric d is defined as follows: if x and y are in S^Z, d(x, y)= 2^{-n} for the smallest n such that x_n != y_n or x_{-n} != y_{-n}
23:23:26  do you know what the product topology on S^Z is?
23:24:12  Not exactly what I would call efficient use of address space...
23:25:18  it has S^\{i : i < j\} x {s} x S^\{i : i > j}} as a subbase, that is a subbase is given by sets where one cell has to be s, and others can be anything
23:25:32  *that is, a subbase
23:25:51  where s and j range over S and Z, respectively
23:26:16  this is just the definition of product topology, which we'll make more sense of later, for instance that metrizability should already clarify it a bit
23:27:12  ok
23:27:55  the product topology of topological spaces (T_i) in general has as a subbase, for each i, and each open U \in T_i, U x \product_{j != i} T_j
23:28:10  i just used the fact {s}'s are open sets forming a base for the finite set S
23:28:29  (on which we of course use the discrete topology)
23:28:48  elliott, I want to see documentation that isn't in bed with the /Web part
23:29:08  Sgeo: ah, so you still don't realise that it's a proof-of-concept
23:29:12  essentially
23:29:12  so okay now we have the topology of S^Z down, let me try to explain why that d implements it
23:29:28  Sgeo: the point of the /web part is to show why the extended type system is helpful.
23:29:44  well first of all, given that d is a metric (i think that's obvious, but should check), it must give us *some* topology on S^Z
23:30:28  so all we have to prove is: 1) if B is an open ball in the topology given by d, then there's an open set in the product topology of S^Z that contains it 2) vice versa
23:30:52  oklopol: I am following
23:30:54 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to __copumpkin__.
23:30:56  alright
23:31:11  now consider such a ball B, it is given by a radius r = 2^{-k}
23:31:35 -!- __copumpkin__ has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:31:43  let's say it's aroung configuration x, now this ball, by the definition of d, contains all y such that x and y agree in the size k neighborhood of the origin
23:31:54  or some off-by-one error there, depending on how exactly i defined d
23:32:10  it doesn't actually matter, but i guess can try to be more precise if you like?
23:32:54  (oh and that neighborhood of the origin isn't a topological neighborhood, just an intuitive idea)
23:33:14  that the cells of y that are at most k steps from cell 0 must agree with those cells of x
23:34:05  elliott, is Learn You A Haskell considered decent? I pointed someone to it
23:34:08  [Someone from class]
23:34:10  because otherwise d would be larger, since if x and y disagree in some |j| < |k|, then d(x, y) >= 2^{-j} by definition of d, and that's bigger than 2^{-k}
23:34:10  Yes.
23:34:15  erm
23:34:26  Ok
23:34:28  where i forgot some ||'s around k and j
23:35:04  *d(x, y) >= 2^{-|j|} *that's bigger than 2^{-|k|}
23:35:52  (i'm waiting for some sort of confirmation, since you gave one such without asking)
23:35:57  oklopol: I think I should write a note on this one
23:36:01  what's a note
23:36:03  oklopol: for the equivalence proof
23:36:06  I just mean on a bit of paper
23:36:10  equivalence of what?
23:36:14  d and product
23:36:44  you mean write down the definitions or?
23:40:18  I meant write the whole proof out
23:40:23  alright, go for it
23:40:24  so I don't get stuck
23:41:26  you mean without any input from me? there is really no trick here, so you can certainly do this yourself if you are organized enough not to drown in the details
23:42:17 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:42:52  and remember basic things like intersections of open sets being open...
23:43:11  even elliott knows that
23:43:14  though
23:43:19  that hurts man
23:43:25  i was just about to say this line:
23:43:28  did you know that?
23:43:37   hey oklopol teach me some maths   okay, so if 2+2=4, then 2+3=5
23:43:48   you following?   eys
23:43:49  *yes
23:43:52   you sure?
23:43:55  :D
23:44:03  hey i once taught you algebra
23:44:10   should i prove it to you
23:44:12  but then you were all like NO MORE, PLEASE GO AWAY
23:44:21  and i was like :(
23:44:45  lol how did the proof go
23:45:07   well, you see, 2=1+1 (i'll explain why later), so it's 1+1+1+1=4
23:45:25   we can reduce this partially to peano arithmetic, namely, SSSS0 = 4
23:45:27   wait
23:45:30   what's peano arithmetic
23:45:36   ummmm S is like 1+ and 0 is like 0
23:45:41   why not just write that
23:45:45   ...fuck you
23:45:48  * oklopol has left IRC
23:45:53  :D
23:45:54  yeah, fuck you
23:46:01  (and don't smile at us)
23:46:18 * cheater99 punches oklopol with the power of a thousand punches!
23:46:45  still laughing at myself
23:46:56  2+2=4 => 2+3=5 only if 3=S2 and 5=S4.  let's define more interesting numbers.
23:47:34  quintopia: i don't get it, how did you prove that implication
23:47:56  you have to somehow remove the 2
23:48:00  from the left sides
23:48:13  :D
23:48:18  i like how hilarious this joke at my expense is.
23:48:25  * oklopol has joined
23:48:30  oklopol: it's a false implication.  i started with P^~P and went from there
23:48:31   okay so let's try something simpler
23:48:35  xD
23:48:40   in fact, let's not
23:48:48   -1*-1 = -1
23:48:51   and i can prove it
23:49:18   -1*-1 = -(1*-1), which is -(-1*1), which is (--1)*1, now --1 = 1, so -1*-1 = 1*1 = 1
23:49:22   following me?
23:49:40   yes, but i don't see what this has to do with the hairy ball theorem
23:49:42  quintopia: i see. in a recent exam on ergodic theory, i did a similar thing, and proved everything is an extremal point os any set.
23:49:42  that's
23:49:43  a punchline
23:49:45  or something
23:50:12  oklopol: do you like my cubically valid proof
23:50:54  i don't know how the hairy ball theorem is proved
23:51:02  i couldn't help you with that
23:51:08  hehehehehe hair yablabsf
23:51:11  ybalbslls
23:51:13  *ballsjfk\
23:51:59  yeah the funny thing about that theorem is is sounds like a guy's low-hangers with hair on them
23:52:02  *it
23:52:14  and not just the name, the proof is pretty fucking perverted as well
23:53:06  the hairy ball theorem? you mean the one that says a vector field on a sphere has at least 2 points of discontinuity?
23:53:15  erm
23:53:18  at least 1 you mean
23:53:21  ?
23:53:30  or is it 2? because it sure looks like 1 is possible
23:53:36  erm
23:53:40  wait i'm a fucking retard
23:53:51  my counterexample had 2
23:54:19  so anyway oklopol
23:54:19  quintopia: but yes, that one
23:54:23  how can i make a topological database
23:54:27  a database
23:54:29  based on topology
23:54:29  is that easy to see?
23:54:42  good question
23:55:05  because uh
23:55:08  botte needs that
23:55:13  currently my design is just like, based on datalog
23:55:15  and where's the fun in that
23:55:20  maybe you could have the discrete topology, i hear that's the BIGGEST topology of al
23:55:21  l
23:55:33  so clearly you'd get *more* stuff out of it
23:56:05  oklopol: can i have databases be like
23:56:06  balls
23:56:08  that i make hair
23:56:09  y
23:56:12  and turn into tori
23:56:21  tori?
23:56:26  plural of torus
23:56:27  moron
23:56:29  :D
23:56:32  there need not be discontinuities on tori
23:56:35  wait
23:56:36  erm, i know that
23:56:38  that's actually the plural
23:56:41  i thought it was toruses
23:56:43  :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:56:46  i was trolling
23:56:50  heh
23:56:59  tori is just such a silly word you know
23:57:43  i know some basic stuff about tori because addition of a constant vector on a torus is one of the basic examples you do in dynamical systems
23:58:11  and i recently came up with fundamental groups of graphs, although naturally i then found this obvious definition in a paper, stated in a nicer way
23:58:17  and
23:58:27  tori are the first things you do with fundamental groups
23:58:30  because of the groups they give
23:58:33  *one of the
23:59:38  maybe i could just go to uni, i feel like this is not a very productive use of my important time
23:59:45  unless j returns

2011-01-13:

00:00:03  then it might be productive use of his time at least, since CA are so very very sexy
00:00:36  CACACACACACACACACACA
00:00:42  that's my catchphrase
00:00:50  when i roam the street
00:00:51  s
00:00:56  sometimes i just go all CACACACACACACACACACA
00:01:56  j-invariant: actually i probably couldn't lecture all night, since the first nontrivial thing you usually do about CA is a theorem i actually don't know how to prove :D
00:01:59 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:02:02  injectivity => surjectivity
00:02:16  some sort of pigeonhole argument, but i haven't filled in the details, ever
00:02:21 * quintopia everts elliott's spheres without pinching or poking holes
00:02:50  what's everting
00:03:58  oklopol, something you do in a fun, cute, happy game
00:04:30  hmm, actually that injectivity => surjectivity thing is really obvious
00:04:34  oklopol: you know when you stick your hand up your ass and pull the rest of you outside?
00:04:37  that's eversion
00:04:37  doesn't use any topology
00:04:42  do you do that often
00:05:05  erm, well apart from the fact that if there's a configuration without a preimage, then there's a finite pattern without a preimage, in the obvious sense
00:05:38  yeah it cleanses my body in ways western science just can't
00:05:46  erm
00:05:48  medicine
00:06:14  i'm actually going to go now, before i start proving that theorem
00:06:25  is that okay?
00:06:38  okay oklopol I will aks you about this in future thogu
00:07:12  go for it
00:07:27 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
00:07:53  or you can just follow our course! http://users.utu.fi/jkari/ca/
00:07:54  :P
00:08:21 -!- variable has joined.
00:08:30  the lecture notes are pretty good, although topology is used less explicitly, at least in the beginning
00:08:37  i should come visit oklopol and embarrass him at his uni
00:08:46  how would you embarrass me?
00:09:14  oklopol: so this one time he was on irc ...
00:09:17  :D
00:09:27  repeat 500 times
00:09:32  many people know my irc nick
00:09:39  yes but they don't know where the logs are
00:09:41  nor have the patience to read them all
00:09:43  i suppose
00:09:48  PENIS PENIS PENIS
00:09:51  PENIS PENIS PENIS
00:09:53  PENIS PENIS PENIS
00:09:55  PENIS PENIS PENIS
00:10:07  I FEEL SO FREE RIGHT NOW
00:10:10  FREE LIKE A FUCKING BIRD
00:10:15  freeee bird
00:10:18  now I have to listen to it
00:10:22  what's that?
00:10:25  FREE BIRD
00:10:25  j-invariant: but free bird is a terrible song
00:10:30  elliott: I like it
00:10:56 * quintopia will be in helsinki on jun 10.  anyone wanna hang out?
00:11:26  maybe i could come see you and fizzie at the same time
00:11:30  OK
00:11:31  GUYS
00:11:35  KERNEL HACKING TIME
00:11:42  my sync() calls are hanging up
00:11:50  this is stalling my whole ubuntu
00:12:11 * Sgeo watches another Eversion LP
00:12:16  this happened only today only this once when i unplugged a usb drive and plugged in another one
00:12:25  maybe Deewiant as well, but i feel Deewiant is a superior person to me, so i'm not sure that'd be as much fun.
00:12:26  oklopol: tell me what to do
00:12:38  i do strace sync and it hangs on this:
00:12:40   " Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?" <<< good morning <-- when, and context?
00:12:41  i always think oh Deewiant won't know anything about this thing
00:12:44  sync(
00:12:44  and then Deewiant just like
00:12:45  butts in
00:12:47  with his superior knowledge
00:12:48  so rude
00:12:50  this is like the last line
00:12:55  yeah that thing
00:12:57  elliott: tell me how to hax this
00:13:05  Vorpal, screwed up sleep cycles.
00:13:10  Sgeo, ah
00:13:11  right
00:13:23 * Sgeo tests Vorpal for alzheimer's
00:13:28 * Sgeo cannot spell
00:13:47  Sgeo, I slept for a few hours
00:13:51  just woke up again
00:14:01  it is 01:14 here now
00:14:04  Vorpal: i tend to assume people remember the context of every line
00:14:08  what's alzheimer's
00:14:22  irl, i tend to spontaneously continue conversations i've had weeks ago
00:14:28  elliott, associated with old people, loss of memory, fatal, Pratchett has it.
00:14:33  elliott: i dunno, i forgot
00:14:34  Probably spelled incorrectly.
00:14:39  Sgeo: huh?
00:14:42  Sgeo: what are you talking about?
00:15:02  elliott, I hate you.
00:15:04  Sgeo, my grandmother (on my father's side) has it too.
00:15:09  [Note: Not really]
00:15:10  Sgeo: what? what did i say
00:15:11  i haven't said anything
00:15:16  my grandparents are free from alzheimer's
00:15:24  the punchline is they're dead
00:15:26  Vorpal, same here [grandmother on father's side]
00:16:02  the last discworld novel had better be fucking awesome
00:16:12  like if it's shit because of, you know, alzheimer's
00:16:14  NO SYMPATHY
00:16:28  go out on a bang, asshole.
00:16:29 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:16:37  elliott, didn't you read it?
00:16:42  the last
00:16:42  it was pretty good
00:16:43  as in, before he dies
00:16:45  which will be soon
00:16:46  elliott doesn't read anything
00:16:51  hm
00:16:55  elliott, ah
00:17:05  elliott, now that is not very nice of you
00:17:16  what isn't?
00:17:17  his condition is deteriorating and he's already said he's going to commit suicide before it becomes too bad, so i'm just being practical here
00:17:28  elliott: i think he meant the no sympathy thing
00:17:30  it's not fair to, like, leave us without tying up all the loose ends and shit with the best novel ever
00:17:31  but checked anyway
00:17:36  are there any swedes?  i'll be in stockholm that same week
00:17:40  yes
00:17:44  Vorpal
00:17:46  and olsner
00:17:46  quintopia: avoid Vorpal at all costs
00:17:48  go visit olsner
00:17:51  both would very much like to meet you
00:17:51  and uh firefly
00:17:54  'kay
00:17:59  and why do you travel so much?
00:18:03  Vorpal probably treats his house like Mount Vorpal
00:18:12  quintopia, I'm not even near Stockholm. :P
00:18:24  yeah Vorpal didn't even give me his address
00:18:25  see, that's good
00:18:26  go where olsner is
00:18:38  aweshum
00:18:45  I have no clue where he lives
00:18:54  i travel as much as i can cuz i love travel
00:18:59  doesn't matter, just far away from Vorpal most likely
00:19:00  oklopol, well to be fair I don't have your either (and don't really want it)
00:19:04  which is what's important
00:19:15  oklopol's address is- GAK!
00:19:33  elliott: should be as easy to avoid vorpal as it is to avoid you
00:19:36  Vorpal: i'm not saying you should give it, i'm just saying you're crazily protective of your house
00:19:53  quintopia: why avoid me i'm amazing
00:19:57  oklopol: sorta like mount vorpal
00:20:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:05  oklopol, no.. not really
00:20:22  what possible reason could you have for not giving me your address?
00:20:31  i just gave you my address today, you even asked for it
00:20:41  elliott: lay odds on us getting along?
00:20:43  oklopol, hah not in MC :P
00:20:51  quintopia: 0, but it's irrelevant, everyone should meet me
00:21:02  I DON'T SEE DIFFERENCE
00:21:06  elliott: even vorpal?
00:21:07  oklopol: omg where are you in mc
00:21:09  you didn't answer, what reason could you have?
00:21:11  quintopia: yes, so i can kill him
00:21:27  okay, even more reason for me to avoid you :P
00:21:31  oklopol, uh? me?
00:21:36  quintopia: just Vorpal
00:21:38  won't kill anyone else
00:21:44  elliott, no I wouldn't
00:21:48  elliott: i just told Vorpal, since he seemed like a likely person not to do anything annoying, while still keeping the place unseen from the majority so i can be in peace
00:21:55 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:21:59  elliott, I get along great with everyone but you and PH.
00:22:31  i get along with people who like good beer
00:22:38  oklopol: i don't do anything annoying intentionally unless it's to Vorpal :)
00:22:40  now it's time for me to go catch a movie
00:22:46  Vorpal: yes, you!
00:22:51  oklopol: like this one time, i set deewiant's house on fire
00:23:02  oklopol, oh nice. *bows*
00:23:04 -!- variable has joined.
00:23:05 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:23:09  oklopol: and when i was cleaning it up with lava it made a gigantic cobble monolith
00:23:12  oklopol: with lava and water inside
00:23:14  oklopol: fun times
00:23:28  oklopol: that happened when i tried to burn the leaves of a tree away
00:23:29  with lava
00:23:33  the leaves kinda drooped over the house a bit
00:23:35  :D
00:23:36  Vorpal: no i mean the question was for you :D
00:23:36  why would you not me the address!
00:23:48  oklopol, which question now again?
00:23:54  oh THAT one
00:23:55  oklopol: but uh if you don't let me cut down trees near yours it'll be totally safe
00:23:56 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:24:17  oklopol, well I think you accidentally a verb there
00:24:44  oklopol, don't trust elliott. He can easily mess up without that
00:24:51  yawn
00:24:56  but there's no magic if i just let everyone come see it every now and then
00:25:14  oklopol: i can just use mcmap + a walking bot to find it :)
00:25:21  go for it
00:25:26  elliott, nice idea
00:25:36  oklopol: but why don't we optimise it, together
00:25:38  by telling me the result
00:26:07  because the point is to play the game, not to obtain goals as fast as possible
00:26:36  http://hpaste.org/42994/dmesg
00:26:37  WAT DO
00:27:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:27:14  cheater00, check what 192.168.178.1 does
00:27:22  :-\
00:27:32  i'm talking about the hanging sync()
00:27:38  cheater00, why the sysrq stuff in there
00:27:52  ah
00:27:55  cheater00, kernel version?
00:28:06  um
00:28:39  copypasting is slow in linux
00:28:42  cheater00, anything between 2.6.30 and 2.6.35 (inclusive) and I suggest you upgrade. I had sync hanging sometimes during that period.
00:28:45  cheater00, no it isn't
00:28:52  just middle mouse button
00:29:01  2.6.32-27-generic #49-Ubuntu SMP Wed Dec 1 23:52:12 UTC 2010 i686 GNU/Linux
00:29:08  yeah i'll probably try to upgrade
00:29:15  cheater00, upgrade to 2.6.36 kernel
00:29:18  how do i unlock my sync() now?
00:29:29  cheater00, you reboot
00:29:43 -!- elliott_ has joined.
00:29:43  oh right, i was gonna leave ->
00:29:45  and hope the fs is journaling
00:29:46  how do i unlock my sync() now without rebooting?
00:29:51 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:29:55  cheater00, you don't. It is a bug in some kernels
00:31:09  cheater00, just unmount any other file systems
00:31:10  Vorpal: must be some way
00:31:20 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:31:21  and remount the ones that couldn't as read only
00:31:22  Vorpal: is there a bug description for this?
00:31:27 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:31:37  cheater00, yes, but I don't have a link to it on this machine
00:31:47  i'm sure you're able to find it
00:31:56  cheater00, no it is on my mail in another computer
00:32:00  cheater00, also why should I
00:32:04  if you are that rude
00:32:12  why rude?
00:32:19  i'm expressing my belief in your abilities
00:32:25  har har
00:32:38  like, i'm sure zzo or j-invariant wouldn't be able to
00:32:49  as if
00:32:49  or oklopol
00:33:08  try google yourself
00:33:11  you can do better than oklopol!
00:33:21  well, i know nothing about the linux kernel
00:33:47  so i wouldn't recognize the right sites in google
00:33:59  cheater00, https://bugzilla.kernel.org/
00:34:01  have fun
00:36:50  cheater00, actually it might not be the same bug. Your backtrace looks a bit shorter than I remember mine
00:36:56  in which case I can't help much
00:43:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:47:10  dfsjglfdgjfsglsfgdfg
00:47:15  emacs modes are hard
00:48:06  stupid generic-mode only supports three-char comment chars
00:53:19  all i want is
00:53:33  colour ~, {, }, :, ., ; specially
00:53:44  have a bunch of alternate comment delims up to 6 chars
00:53:48  and have an auto-indenter algo
00:53:50  THAT SO HARD?
00:56:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:59:56 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
01:00:00 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
01:00:00 -!- elliott has joined.
01:00:03 * elliott designs a text edito
01:00:03  r
01:00:43  f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/r{$1'\n'$2'('}
01:01:25 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
01:01:59 -!- Ilari has joined.
01:03:44  _Ex `find -name \*.[ch]`/{_Op f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/r{$1'\n'$2'('}_Wr _Cl}
01:04:40 * elliott waits for Sgeo to call him crazy
01:07:38  What's _Ex?
01:07:44  Execute.
01:07:56  ` is an arbitrary char; you could use % there too.
01:07:57  Ex %ls%
01:08:08  I am _NOT_ doing all that next time I omit a letter from a line
01:08:13  What?
01:08:22  That has nothing to do with omitting a letter from a line.
01:08:23  That changes
01:08:25  int foo(blah)
01:08:27  C prototypes into
01:08:28  int
01:08:29  foo(blah)
01:08:34  from all C files in the current dir
01:08:35  and children
01:08:41  Why?
01:08:47  Because it's an example.
01:09:51  And I see it stemming from the grand J tradition of being unreadable
01:09:57 * Sgeo gets shot by elliott
01:10:18  it's not even vaguely related to J.
01:10:21  it's more similar to ed and teco
01:10:29  also, unreadable for you maybe
01:10:38  i find c# unreadable
01:11:12  No output.
01:11:58  Sgeo: you could easily write that line more readable and clearer. but, err, it's an editor
01:12:00  who indents editor commands
01:12:21  I will be offline for much of Friday
01:12:45  _Ex `find -name \*.[ch]` / {
01:12:45    _Op
01:12:45    f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/
01:12:45    r{ $1 '\n' $2 '(' }
01:12:45    _Wr
01:12:45  I'm sure that makes you happy
01:12:46    _Cl
01:12:47  }
01:13:25  elliott, I don't.. understand it, but if I read about it, it would be comprehendible
01:13:40  Sgeo: _Ex is just execute shell command obviously
01:13:47  / is infix operator for "each in list"
01:13:51  _Op = open; _Wr = write; _Cl = close
01:13:54  Hmm... Wonder what is failure rate of 6to4 return paths...
01:14:03  f/regexp/ is "find (and, implicitly, select) all matching strings"
01:14:09  r{ ... } is "replace with result of this block"
01:14:10  (of course, any failure there is stupid...)
01:14:15  $1, $2 are your standard regexp () group values
01:14:17  and that's all there is to it
01:14:22  Ah
01:14:49  Are f and r always together like that?
01:14:54  No.
01:15:00  Also useful is f/foo/ d.
01:15:03  To delete all instances of foo.
01:15:15  But r is meaningless without a preceding f?
01:15:18  f/foo/ a... would add stuff after all instances of foo.
01:15:28  Sgeo: It operates on the current selection. So you could select, e.g., an arbitrary range in the file instead.
01:15:40  (Note: You can have N selections at a time; all these operations act on /every/ selection.)
01:15:44  Ah
01:15:44  This is modelled after sam.
01:15:52  (ed's graphical successor)
01:20:18  Sgeo: Anyway modelling dream editors on TECO is good enough for Mark Chu-Caroll so it's good enough for me.
01:20:21  His is actually implemented though.
01:20:23  *Carroll
01:21:13 * Sgeo colds on chat
01:21:18  Sgeo: What.
01:21:23  I'm cold
01:21:55  I'm in a bit of a happy mood ight now. Deespite being cold
01:21:58  P.S. my f/foo/r/bar/ is MCC's g/foo/,{r'bar'}.
01:22:23  Well, where MCC's g comes from is obvious, but why the {}?
01:22:41  For grouping, presumably.
01:22:43  His is more like a foreach.
01:22:54  Ah
01:23:06  Mine isn't a loop, it just holds multiple selections. Like Schrödinger's editor.
01:23:18  Indeed:
01:23:20  global: g/pattern/,block
01:23:20  A simple loop construct. For each match of the pattern within the current cursor, execute the block. So, for example, to do a global search and replace of foo with bar, * g/foo/,{r'bar'}.
01:23:23  Less powerful than my notion.
01:24:28  MCC's has factorial:
01:24:29    fun ($x) @fact {($x,0)@= ? {1} : { ($x, ($x,1)@-@fact)@* }
01:24:34  which would be, uh, slightly uglier in mine.
01:25:34  S's cat's editor?
01:25:38  What?
01:25:46  Oh.
01:26:07  _Set [_Fact] {_Eq $1 0 ?'1' :{I don't even want to write this bit}}
01:26:19  That just sets _Fact to a string naturally.
01:30:45  i wonder what i should impl botte in
01:33:18  Courtesy of Notch's incompetence, enjoy minecraft.jar for free: http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/minecraft.jar
01:33:32  I am fairly sure that anyone can download that URL without supplying the S3 auth token.
01:33:44  You also require:
01:33:50  http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/lwjgl.jar
01:33:50  http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/jinput.jar
01:33:50  http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/lwjgl_util.jar
01:33:53  http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/linux_natives.jar.lzma
01:36:20  oklopol: hi
01:45:30  elliott, o.O
01:45:36  Sgeo: ?
01:46:20  That's useless without some trick to avoid having to log in, I think
01:49:54 -!- augur has changed nick to SamuelBeckett.
01:50:03 -!- SamuelBeckett has changed nick to augur.
01:51:43  Sgeo: umm, easy
01:51:47  Sgeo: just log in with invalid uname/pass
01:51:56  Sgeo: or non-purchased one
01:52:04  Sgeo: plus, no, that's launcher.jar
01:52:09  Unless something changed since the al.. ah
01:52:09  running minecraft.jar will do everything
01:52:12  online servers won't let you in of course
01:52:18  since they check with minecraft.net
01:52:20  unless they're modded not to
01:52:28  Is there a windows_natives?
01:53:55  Sgeo: presumably.
01:54:05  those are all free-to-download sorta thing
01:54:09  not protected with auth token in download logs
01:54:22  Sgeo: in fact if you run classic in-browser i think you will see it being downloaded
01:54:49   http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/linux_natives.jar.lzma <--- what, is it that open?
01:55:03  Vorpal: linux_natives.jar.lzma is downloaded even by the classic client.
01:55:13  okay what about minecraft.jar then
01:55:15  Vorpal: The thing is that minecraft.jar is downloaded like ?user=ehird&auth=...
01:55:20  But I curl -I'd it without those
01:55:26  And it had the same file length and 200 OK response :P
01:55:44  elliott, how did you find this out?
01:55:46  Yep, downloading it now.
01:55:58  Vorpal: It prints out the URLs it downloads when it updates.
01:56:06  I just decided to cut off the params and see what happened.
01:56:08  elliott, oh there is an update out?
01:56:19  Yes. And since this is a new OS installation I was running it from cmd line.
01:56:27  elliott, ah. What is new this time
01:56:34  Ubuntu.
01:56:38  oh
01:56:43  elliott, so no actual update out?
01:56:51  $ wget http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/minecraft.jar
01:56:52  elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~$ diff minecraft.jar .minecraft/bin/minecraft.jar
01:56:52  elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~$
01:56:54  Notch quality engineering.
01:56:56  Vorpal: Indeed.
01:58:09  elliott, as notch pointed out, this *is* in fact awesome: http://kotaku.com/5729340/you-can-now-bring-the-real-world-to-minecraft/gallery/
01:58:47  I would so tweet that URL but fanbois would yell at me for being an evil pirate scumbag fuckwit, Notch would fix it quickly (probably badly) and likely FROWN UPON me or something, and nobody would win.
01:59:01  Instead, I will just link the files to anyone I recommend Minecraft to, to save them the effort of pirating an old version.
01:59:15  hah
01:59:19  Vorpal: Also, I linked that in here yesterday.
01:59:26  elliott, I didn't see it
01:59:27  Well, the original source, not Kotaku blogspam.
01:59:35  elliott, where is the original source?
01:59:55  Good question, Kotaku are very good at hiding that... Gawker scumbags...
02:00:01  http://www.orderofevents.com/MineCraft/KinectInfo.htm
02:00:04  From the bottom of their sidebar text.
02:00:14  Incidentally, the other side is apparently concave.
02:00:20  Which is DISTURBING
02:00:32  Also, I'd take a photo of something very, very red
02:00:33  *red.
02:00:38  Except it'd come out as Netherstone...
02:00:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
02:00:41  *NetherRACK
02:00:52  *NetherACK
02:01:19  is it really netherack?
02:01:39  I dunno :P
02:04:14  There is a windows_natives
02:04:34  I'm ... hyper with excitement
02:04:44  Make sure to rm bin/version :P
02:04:49  Also... no comment.
02:04:56  [Note: I don't mean sexually]
02:05:08  sexadfawefuhawr
02:05:11  -shutup- Shut up about sex!
02:05:35  Factoracto
02:05:40  As I said, it's broken :P
02:05:58  That bug was weird. But I'm not restarting it until I decide that it won't hurt me.
02:06:04  And that service system hurts me.
02:06:43  elliott, we all know that shutup's source is updog
02:06:43  What's updog?
02:06:54  Yes, by the power of rampant speculation.
02:07:40  I think the bug where updog doesn't distinguish between msgs to the channel and to it hurts you even more
02:07:40  What's updog?
02:08:16  I hurt, with pain.
02:08:29   That bug was weird. But I'm not restarting it until I decide that it won't hurt me. <-- what bug
02:08:44  Vorpal, something to do with sex, apparently
02:08:44  It triggered on "sex" when it was not, in fact, intended to.
02:08:55  The shutup code is ... kinda tailored for perversity.
02:09:03  How do you accidentally trigger on sex?
02:09:05  I refuse to code bots in any sane kind of manner.
02:09:23  Sgeo: By fitting a words-to-include formula to the data of past things you've said.
02:09:24   I think the bug where updog doesn't distinguish between msgs to the channel and to it hurts you even more <-- hah
02:09:24  What's updog?
02:09:44  i.e., decide what words to filter on, make an algo that goes through all your past said words and uses the frequency to decide which ones to keep,
02:09:49  and fit the latter so that it produces the former.
02:09:55  I blame you for skewing the results.
02:10:30  So it will be a while before it triggers on Alluded-To?
02:10:41  Sgeo, Alluded-To?
02:10:55  Vorpal: Katie Alluded-To Female.
02:11:00  Katie A.T. F. for short.
02:11:03  elliott, oh the "she"?
02:11:05  Yes.
02:11:14  elliott, nothing wrong with having a girlfriend
02:11:25  Is she not alluded-to?
02:11:34  elliott, and what is wrong with that
02:11:35  Also, that was invented far before the term girlfriend could be even vaguely applicable.
02:11:44  elliott: somehow i cannot quite recall Sgeo talking that much about sex in the past
02:11:50  elliott, you should make the bot tell yourself to shut up about @ btw
02:12:01  i rarely talk about @
02:12:02  it is awesome though
02:12:03  oerjan: did you not read? it's not based on direct frequency
02:12:21  elliott: well obviously or it would trigger on "the" :D
02:12:22  oerjan: i rigged the input to the algo so that it came back with almost the word list i wanted
02:12:34  because sanity is frankly boring
02:12:47  hah
02:12:53  It has to be fairly deliberate for fantasies
02:12:56  elliott: maybe you have just algorithmically proved that Sgeo _is_ obsessed with sex, then.
02:13:01  I did add some special-casing.
02:13:01  fantasy
02:13:05  Ah
02:13:13  oerjan: I am a brilliant visionary and a scientist.
02:13:24  I graciously accept this Nobel Prize.
02:14:08  elliott, but the Nobel Prize is Swedish. How can you not look down on it.
02:14:09 * elliott IRC-bookmarks http://code.google.com/p/gnuemacscolorthemetest/
02:14:15  Vorpal: so is olsner and he's p. coo
02:14:24  just 90% of you suck
02:14:29  elliott, "p. coo"?
02:14:33  pretty coo'
02:14:35  elliott, what about Firefly?
02:14:42  well sure but he rarely talks or anything
02:14:45  elliott, also 90% of *everything* sucks
02:14:49  beholdmyglory is also swedish i think
02:14:55  also, yes, but 90% of the remaining 10% of sweden sucks
02:15:05  sweden applies sturgeon's RECURSIVE law
02:15:10  hah
02:15:11  basically only epsilon% of sweden doesn't suck
02:15:17  easily provable
02:15:35  sucks = 90% + 90% of 10% + 90% of 10% of 10% + 90% of 10% of 10% of 10% + ...
02:15:53  elliott, we got the joke
02:15:54  wow the emacs themes are ugly
02:15:59  um, wai
02:16:04  That's the same thing as 100%
02:16:05  emacs has themes?
02:16:09  Sgeo: thus epsilon%
02:16:12  Vorpal: color-theme-select
02:16:15  they're all fairly hideous
02:16:18  elliott, 99.9999999..... = 100
02:16:22  there was this nice one i used once...
02:16:28  oerjan: swat Sgeo plxkthz
02:16:34  elliott, is that M-x?
02:16:40  Vorpal: yes
02:16:41  elliott, because I have no color-theme-select
02:16:47  elliott, what emacs version?
02:16:52  Hmm. 90% of everything that sucks sucks.
02:16:55  Vorpal: 23, you may have to require 'color-theme
02:16:55  Sgeo: i think elliott is using non-standard analysis
02:17:00  or maybe it has a u
02:17:06  elliott, ah
02:17:11  oerjan: non-standard analysis doesn't exactly give 99.99999... != 100 :D
02:17:31  elliott: details!
02:17:47  Vorpal: proof that they are all pretty bad: http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-c.html
02:17:55  also http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-tex.html http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-el.html
02:17:57  for different languages
02:18:09  el one is probably best
02:18:11  since the code is the prettiest
02:18:18  Arjen looks decent
02:18:28  no it doesn't
02:18:33  elliott, standard emacs  are quite okay
02:18:43  most of these look like some colourblind kid slapped random colours together without thinking
02:18:55  Bharadwaj Slate must die
02:19:01  The rest look decent
02:19:02  Mostly
02:19:23   Bharadwaj Slate must die <-- yeargh yesx
02:19:24  yes*
02:19:38  http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html this is the ideal of syntax highlighting
02:19:40  also blue sea, blue mood
02:19:42  and so on
02:19:42  i don't like the specific colours he used
02:19:45  bharadwaj sounds indian and everyone knows indians are colorblind
02:19:53  i generally prefer dark-on-beigey-esque-stuff
02:19:53  but
02:19:55  Late Night.
02:20:01  his use of colour theory is very relevant
02:20:02  Seriously. Dear God Why. Late Night.
02:20:03  everyone should read that post
02:20:12  and the end result is really great, ignoring the absolute colours
02:20:20  if you look from a slight distance you can really see the balance it creates
02:20:33  if only every language had fans so dedicated to write such colourers for them :)
02:21:26  Sgeo: late night is one of the better ones.
02:21:29  it's a bit too low contrast
02:21:35  but, at least, it isn't a mess of colours
02:21:43  shading > colours usualy
02:21:45  *usually
02:22:23   http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html this is the ideal of syntax highlighting <-- extremely interesting
02:23:09  yeah i might do that for haskell sometime
02:23:13  ugh, white on black
02:23:17  copumpkin: as i said
02:23:20  it's not the actual colours that matter
02:23:25  it's the design of the whole thing
02:23:27  no, I mean
02:23:30  I want to read that
02:23:36  disable css :p
02:23:40  i agree it sucks
02:23:52  I just don't get why people insist on doing that shit
02:24:02  people haven't quite realised that with an lcd, backlight-on on backlight-off = lightbulb
02:24:10  with crts it wasn't quite the same
02:24:12  and light-on-dark was ok
02:24:19  but on lcds it's godawful
02:25:31  copumpkin: can you write a lazy parallel specialiser for me?
02:25:35  in x86-64 assembly?
02:25:35  nope
02:25:35  thanks
02:25:40  would be great
02:25:43  on my desk by monday
02:25:54  i wonder if anyone's ever done work on parallel specialisation
02:25:59 * elliott adds it to the phd thesis topic ideas list
02:26:02  elliott: Light-on-dark is bad? Huh?
02:26:07  pikhq: Yes.
02:26:10  pikhq: On LCDs, yes.
02:26:14  How so?
02:26:22  pikhq: The background, and the gaps in the letters, get (almost) no backlight. So they're like looking at, you know, a wall.
02:26:27  pikhq: Whereas the letters are lit brightly.
02:26:34  pikhq: The result is that they shine like a lightbulb.
02:26:52  elliott: Your backlight level is almost certainly set too high.
02:26:57  pikhq: The best is off-black on, e.g., a medium beige: not black-on-lightbulb, but not lightbulb-on-black.
02:27:04  pikhq: Sure. But even with a lower backlight you get similar things.
02:27:14  The fact is that it's little-tiny-lines-of-light-on-no-light and that just ain't nice.
02:27:39   ugh, white on black <-- yeah should use light grey on black
02:27:43  pikhq: ALSO considering probably most of the web is dark-on-light, it's horrible because when you move away from light-on-dark, your eyes explode.
02:27:43  like the terminal
02:27:48  Vorpal: lol
02:27:54  off-white on white
02:28:00  grey1 on grey2
02:28:09  pink on purple
02:28:10  braille on random sea of braille
02:28:11  that's best
02:28:14  ^^ NO THIS IS BEST
02:28:22  haha i'm gonna go around trolling blind people
02:28:25  "Hey, what does this say?"
02:28:37  omg
02:28:43  someone render "has anyone ever been so far as ..." in braille
02:28:49  i'm going to put it on a random door in the high street
02:28:55  elliott, your monitor has insufficiently backlight bleeding :P
02:28:55  :D
02:28:57  i should sleep now
02:28:58  Black on PLUGE black on a TV.
02:29:00  before i get any better ideas
02:29:03 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:30:19  night again
02:36:34 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
02:36:38  Haha... NASA produces heavy launcher design and notes "However, to be clear, neither Reference Vehicle Design currently fits the projected budget profiles nor schedule goals outlined in the Authorization Act”. Translation: It will take horridly long and be horridly expensive.
02:37:55  Thanks to those pork-barrel politicans, US manned spaceflight program is effectively dead...
02:38:12 -!- variable has joined.
02:39:12  Yeah; as soon as the shuttle's done, that's it.
02:39:22  No more US manned spaceflight, barring a miracle.
02:39:31  But remember: we're number one!
02:42:37  Basically, only Russia and China are capable of manned launches...
02:42:46  (to orbit)
02:44:31  I thought there was something about private companies?
02:45:18  And manned moon landing... Hasn't been possible for any space agency for 30 years...
02:45:26  (actually more)
02:46:13  Sgeo: There are private companies that would *like* to have a manned launch capacity.
02:46:24  Hmm.
02:48:32  Oh. SpaceX is actually *working on* a manned orbital launch vehicle.
02:50:57  Their rocket has successfully launched a module into orbit.
02:51:12  Saturn V-23(L)... Now that would have been crazy device. 5 uprated F-1s (F-1A)... PLUS 4x2 F-1As in form of 4 extra boosters...
02:54:05  Hmm. It was, in fact, a fully functional cargo vehicle they launched. As soon as NASA is satisfied, it will be launching to the ISS.
02:58:27  And too bad none of the "Nova" rockets was ever built...
03:00:22  Nor any nuclear-powered rockets...
03:01:06  (And I mean more like NERVA than ORION)
03:02:17 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to c0pumpkin.
03:04:24  Idonno, something about contracting to private companies to go to space seems enormously appropriate, we just need to somehow convince them that it's worth it ...
03:31:49  My dad accidentally threw out the melatonin
03:32:00  I was planning on sleeping tonight
03:43:10 -!- c0pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
03:43:57  _accidentally_
03:44:00  ?
03:48:53  He was cleaning out the medicine closet, and didn't realize the melatonin was mine, I guess
03:53:29  My dad just gave me a Benadryl
03:57:03  it should work
03:57:24  um that's not for sleeping is it
03:57:30  (says wikipedia)
03:57:48  it's not.  but it has a pretty pronounced drowsiness side effect
04:29:32  which is a cooler place, kobnhavn or amsterdam?
04:30:40  amsterdam because it actually exists
04:38:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
04:40:47  copenhagen or denmark man, be straight with me
04:40:51  *amsterdam
04:40:52  sorry
04:40:58  two conversations at once
04:41:55  so the other conversation got a *copenhagen?
04:42:30  sure
05:29:04  It appears that Copenhagen is, but only by 1-2 degrees centigrade.
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05:30:19  Gregor: ...
05:31:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:31:47  oerjan: Well, just going by Wikipedia's relatively limited climate information.
05:33:51  O KAY
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05:38:49  Ah *good*.
05:39:42  George Hotz's lawyer has, in SCEA v. George Hotz; Hector Martin; Cantero; Sven Peter; and Does 1 through 100, argued against the claim of jurisdiction and the claim that the defendants are somehow acting in concert.
05:41:29  In short: unless SCEA can demonstrate that a court in California has jurisdiction over people in: California, New Jersey, Sweden, and various unknown countries in Europe, *and* that the defendants are, in fact, a single group, acting in concert, this case ought to be thrown out soon.
05:42:27  As the only reason for the California court to have jurisdiction would be if *all* defendants had agreed to the PSN terms of service, and as George Hotz is in no way acting together with fail0verflow, I expect SCEA to need to file a new case.
05:43:32  His attorney apparently specialises in defending against the RIAA's P2P lawsuits.
05:46:11  wonderful
05:48:47  Oh, good. Groklaw's following this case.
05:49:09  ... SCO IS STILL GOING‽‽‽
05:56:42  pikhq, SCEA?
05:59:21  Sony Computer Entertainment of America.
05:59:29  Which, incidentally, is in Delaware.
06:00:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:00:19  Oh, yeah, they're suing in a state that neither they *nor* their defendants are in, soley because the PSN terms say "you agree to be under the jurisdiction of (some court in California)".
06:00:48  I'm not entirely sure that clause even *works* outside of the US.
06:01:28  Well. It certainly doesn't *effectively* work outside of the US; after all, a non-American can just tell US courts to fuck off and die in a fire.
06:01:29 -!- augur has joined.
06:01:53  You're not getting fucking extradited for a civil matter.
06:04:02  pikhq, if they are not in that jurisdiction that clause shouldn't work
06:06:04  variable: Most of the defendants are not in the jurisdiction of *any US court*.
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06:16:21  has anyone figured out whether they're suing specifically the named people as constituting fail0verflow, or those plus anyone else who happens to be affiliated with f0f?
06:16:34  or not suing
06:16:37  but you know what I mean
06:17:15  they mention does 1 through 100
06:17:56  copumpkin: They are suing *specifically* fail0verflow.
06:18:14  of which they happen to know four members as named?
06:18:17  but potentially more?
06:18:21  Yes.
06:18:23  I see
06:18:36  Actually, *three* members as named.
06:18:47  oh?
06:18:49  George Hotz is not a member of fail0verflow.
06:18:56  there are four others
06:18:58  And, in fact, has *no* connection to them at all.
06:19:02  I know :P
06:19:05  Hector Martin; Cantero; Sven Peter.
06:19:06  That's 3.
06:19:09  segher
06:19:14  That's an alias.
06:19:16  hector martin cantero is one person
06:19:27  bushing is another
06:19:38  Bushing is an alias.
06:19:41  yes, I know
06:19:49  They only named real names.
06:20:09  And then listed the aliases for people that will be included in "Does 1 through 100".
06:20:21  the documents included plenty of mentions of bushing and segher
06:20:27  fair enough
06:20:36  what other aliases are in there?
06:21:01  I don't think there were others; they are merely presuming that there are an unknown number of other members.
06:21:06  I see
06:21:22  With "1 through 100" as shorthand for "however many of them there are".
06:21:38  makes sense
06:22:53  well, it'll be interesting to see how this goes
06:24:39  I imagine that Geohotz and Bushing will have trouble from this.
06:25:07  Everyone else can just mock our insane legal system.
06:26:40  https://s-hphotos-ash1.fbcdn.net/hs796.ash1/168654_482257016845_714011845_6503407_4647200_n.jpg :-}
06:41:00  variable: are you an actual variable, or one of those stupid fp/math that can't actually change their value?
06:41:09  *ones that
06:47:59  oklopol, I'm truly variable
06:53:41  at least some of the time
06:55:04  oerjan, yes - when I'm about to be shot, mutilated, or otherwise modified I become const
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06:57:34  Do you know if DVItype has been published in a book? Do you know what would be the proper bibliography citation for it?
06:58:54  zzo38, what format?
06:59:06  MLA ? Chicago ?
06:59:49  variable: I am using Vancouver format.
07:00:02 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
07:00:09 * variable doesn't know that one
07:00:15 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:00:23  I know MLA6, MLA7, and, APA
07:00:31  * Chicago
07:00:35  I know of APA
07:01:13  Do you know the citation for it, in any format?
07:01:34  zzo38, its a website - right?
07:01:45  variable: No.
07:02:02  zzo38, what is it and I'll try to tell you
07:02:10  Both the book I am citing and the book I am aking are both computer programs.
07:02:51  Online or bought (boxed) ?
07:03:20  It is a file on my computer, I do not know if it has ever been published in a book.
07:03:32  erm - its source code?
07:03:56  I have both the source file and the DVI file.
07:04:10  zzo38, Last, First. Software Name. Vers. A.b.c. Company Name, 1887. Computer software.
07:04:13  in MLA
07:04:37  1887 is the year of creation
07:05:41  zzo38, remove "Vers. A.b.c" if you don't know   remove the "Company name" AND date published if it wasn't previously published
07:06:05  I do not know if it was published.
07:06:30  zzo38, then just use Last, First. Software Name.
07:06:41  note the trailing .
07:06:44  The program TeX and METAFONT are published (I have the books), but this program DVItype I do not know (it is related to TeX, though)
07:06:46  (again - this is MLA style)
07:07:52  zzo38, years ago I wrote a program to automatically generate this for me :-}
07:08:07  I do have "(Version 3.6, December 1995)" and "The preparation of this report was supported in part by the National Science Foundation under grants IST-820 1926 and ..."
07:08:07  I may rewrite it in Haskell or something - and then publish it
07:08:19  http://www.pa.msu.edu/~aaronson/alitest/aintro.html what are your alignments guys?
07:08:48  quintopia, D&D alignment test - heh
07:09:09  i came up True Neutral
07:09:14 * variable looks
07:10:02  These things are written on the table of contents page of DVItype
07:10:18  zzo38, I'm not very familiar with govt. works
07:10:25  I'd venture to guess that it is
07:10:56  zzo38, Last, First. Software Name. Vers. 3.6. Computer software.
07:15:40  quintopia, i only did the first 15 questions: Alignment: True Neutral
07:16:00  cool
07:21:00  Latest figures: APNIC pool is at 39 886 592 IPs. 3.0M-8.0M remain to estimated allocation thresholds...
07:21:06  I have done a few D&D alignment tests, with some different answers on each one, I have gotten NG, CG, and CN.
07:21:36  variable: I think it is not government work. Donald Knuth wrote DVItype.
07:22:12  zzo38, you play D&D - curious
07:23:17  I also invented some spells and feats and stuff for D&D game.
07:23:46  zzo38, as in official or homebre?
07:23:49  *homebrew
07:24:08  variable: Just my own spells/feats. But I use the official ones, too.
07:24:09 * Ilari goes ot look how large is APNIC IPv6 pool... :-)
07:24:17  zzo38, heh - same here :-}
07:25:35  My character is ettercap. My brother's character is human ninja. There are also some NPCs in the party, one of which is otyugh and the others humans.
07:26:28  And almost every one of my actions in the game is strange.
07:27:43  82 339 124 917 091 486 660 901 601 422 606 336  addresses (99.1% of a block).
07:29:12  fizzie, wrt mcmap: it could be some off by one error. Even when you edit further down you sometimes get errors. Not corruption like near max alt, but sometimes if you edit just below the top block that edit show up as top on mcmap surface view when it shouldn't
07:30:22  The first page of DVItype is numbered 402, so it seems it might have been a part of some book.
07:30:36  fizzie, for example I placed a lightstone below an ironblock at altitude 73 and it showed up as a lightstone on mcmap. However it is not reliably reproducible, even in that one spot. Things like that happen every now and then. But far from always.
07:32:14  I have read that it is not allowed to place something in the public domain. But does it apply in Canada? Is it allowed in Canada to make something public domain?
07:32:52  And why is it disallowed?
07:37:39  The reason why public domain might be disallowed is possibility of coercion...
07:38:57  (I think)
07:39:15  Ilari: Do you have example?
07:48:50  I got algorithm to make plurals working, but can you check to see if there are omissions or anything else wrong with my file?
07:54:19  zzo38, depends on the country
07:54:32  most countries follow the Berne convention
07:55:13  which basically states: "author gets all the rights except if he gives them away (and a bit of fair use like things)
07:56:02  the closest one could get to placing something in the public domain is by providing an irrevocable, transferable, license to everyone
07:56:27  the "public domain" is made up by some countries which states that certain types of things don't have a copyright owner
07:56:46  IE the federal government in the US, and works over X years from the author's death
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
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08:01:56  Can I make something in the public domain by dictating the US government to write it down exactly as I said?
08:02:37  (Of course this is completely impractical, I am asking if it is possible/legal)
08:03:07  I think that depends whether you use legal means for "incentivizing" them to write what you say.
08:03:57  I believe you can sneak things into public domain by getting them recorded as part of some court proceedings.
08:04:16  Is it legal for someone to sue themself?
08:04:41  Not sure, but you could have an accomplice there.
08:05:04  Can I get something into the public domain by suing myself over the document I wish to make public domain?
08:07:12  I have read somewhere that the DMCA allows Sony to sue themself, I do not know whether or not this is true.
08:12:51  "While the copyright of the play Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J. M. Barrie has expired in the United Kingdom, it was granted a special exception under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (Schedule 6)[33] that requires royalties to be paid for performances within the UK, so long as Great Ormond Street Hospital (to whom Barrie gave the rights) continues to exist."
08:12:54  Isn't that a bit strange?
08:13:49  fizzie: Yes it is a bit strange, I think.
08:16:18  fizzie, erm
08:16:32  Disney has a perpetual copyright on mickey mouse IIRC
08:16:38  zzo38, suing oneself is not possible
08:16:45  (in the US)
08:17:05  variable: Do you know if in Canada, it is permitted to put something into public domain?
08:17:35  zzo38, I would highly doubt it - but I know little of Canadian law
08:17:35  I think Disney's copyright is just a "de-facto" seems-to-be-extended-all-the-time thing, not something that's actually perpetual.
08:17:48  I am also not a lawyer and I do not give legal advice
08:18:25  But are you a doctor and can the above be construed as medical advice?
08:18:29  fizzie, strictly speaking its some insanely long term that congress keeps on extending (there was a supreme court case about the constitutionality of this) but its close to perpetual
08:18:32  fizzie, no.
08:18:46  (its sad that I feel I must answer the question seriously)
08:18:57  variable: I am not expecting proper legal advice.
08:19:07  Nor am I expecting proper medical advice.
08:19:34  zzo38, public domain is basically things that fall outside of copyright law
08:19:52  in most countries its not really possible to put something in PD
08:21:15  You could just die and then wait a century or so.
08:22:09  I guess if you actually wait a full century, you don't even need to die.
08:22:25  fizzie, no - its 100 yrs after author death
08:22:32  "95 years from publication or 120 years from creation whichever is shorter (anonymous works, pseudonymous works, or works made for hire, published since 1978)"
08:22:43  "Life + 70 years (works published since 1978 or unpublished works)"
08:22:48  that's what I meany
08:22:49  Says Wikipedia's US table.
08:22:50  70 yrs
08:22:51  not 100
08:22:58  Yes, but if you publish it anonymously.
08:23:10  zzo38, actually - after doing some research (read: google) there is some common law about suing yourself
08:24:08  What if I add the following text to the beginning of the document: "This license is secret and its author is not permitted to read/use it, unless it is part of a court case in which case it is public domain. The license conditions end here; what follows is an appendix." and then somehow sue myself over it........
08:24:30  fizzie, one of my get rich slow schemes is to publish different works under 10 different names forecasting different financial outcomes in a few yrs. Then when one comes true reveal myself as the author of that work and write a new one that I sell for lots of money
08:24:53  zzo38, you could try to go to congress and get it read there
08:25:09  (and even if it were criminal you couldn't get prosecuted over it)
08:25:15  France in the table: "Life + 70 years [...] + 30 years for all works if the author died on active service".
08:26:31  variable: Why couldn't get prosecuted over it?
08:27:19  Does the DMCA actually permit Sony to sue themself or is that something that someone else made up?
08:28:01  "Sony" is composed of so many parts that I'm sure they could find some separate corporations to interfight.
08:30:47  zzo38, one can't be prosecuted for something said/done in the course of a Congressional hearing IIRC
08:30:54  I'm looking for the exact provision now
08:31:44  zzo38, "They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place."
08:31:58  Article I Section 6
08:32:08  but that only applies to members
08:34:22  zzo38, the idea was to prevent the president from having legislative members arrested before voting
08:34:36 * variable misremembered the clause
08:36:16 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
08:37:05 * variable is AWAY
08:38:29      \o/   \m/ \m/   \o/
08:38:30      |     `\o/´     |
08:38:30      >\      |       |\
08:38:30             /´\
08:38:30           (_| |_)
08:39:27 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:39:44  Project Gutenberg says you can release your own work into public domain by writing a note; this contradicts the description about the WTFPL. And anyways this is for United States. I live in Canada.
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09:02:42  I have idea, I have thought to make a program that converts a ESC/P file for Epson dot-matrix printers into DVI format.
09:08:15 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:10:30  http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-01-13/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+DilbertDailyStrip+(Dilbert+Daily+Strip)&Page=2
09:10:39  There's a human spammer?
09:10:40  o.O
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11:31:01   I have idea, I have thought to make a program that converts a ESC/P file for Epson dot-matrix printers into DVI format. <-- I wonder why this would ever be useful
11:34:23  Perhaps he has a large amount of documentation or something in the form of ESC/P files.
11:36:34  I'm not sure what my dot-matrix printer used; it might have been partially compatible, but not very. I do have some conversion programs from raster graphics to that, for image-printing.
11:36:48  heh
11:36:56  fizzie, for DOS?
11:37:41  No, just something you can run a .png through and then 'lp' it out a raw printcap entry or something. I think this was pre-CUPS.
11:37:54  ah
11:38:34  Speaking of which, I looked at the C1x static asserts; the format is _Static_assert(constant-expression, string-literal), and the semantics are that if constant-expression equals zero, "the implementation shall produce a diagnostic message that includes the text of the string literal". And  defines static_assert to _Static_assert.
11:38:38  Rather straight-forward.
11:38:59  hm
11:39:28  but rather more limited than D's static asserts then?
11:39:40  I don't know what those are like.
11:40:27  I seem to remember they looked rather interesting when reading ccbi2 source
11:40:32  don't remember how
11:40:40  fizzie, btw where did you find the c1x draft?
11:41:49  Well, it's at http://www.open-std.org/Jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1547.pdf -- don't quite remember where I got the link, it's not directly on the WG14 front page, but maybe it's in there deeper somewhere.
11:42:07  ISO working group web pages tend to be a bit unstructured and confusing.
11:42:34  heh indeed
11:42:54  fizzie, anyway, open-std? Isn't that POSIX related?
11:43:11  They have quite a lot of stuff there.
11:43:18  ah indeed
11:43:18  Including the posix workin group page.
11:43:35  "WG11 - Binding Techniques" I wonder what on earth that is
11:44:05  also the phrase "Programming languages and, operating systems" looks terribly strange to me. The comma specifically.
11:44:08  "how to make specifications independent of programming languages, and then apply these specifications to the programming languages" -- sounds a bit SWIGgy.
11:44:40  I guess it's not, really.
11:45:06  hm? that comma was much less out of place to me
11:45:19  (if that was what you were trying to imply)
11:45:32  No, I just meant the binding stuff is not very SWIGgy after all.
11:45:35  ah
11:45:45  The C standard includes some sort of a "binding" to their "language-independent math" thing.
11:46:10  heh
11:47:43  Oh, and C1x thread functions have a naming scheme that's a bit on the ugly side; all thread functions/macros/whatever are thrd_foo, mutexes mtx_foo, and condition-variable stuff cnd_foo.
11:48:06  Purely as a guess I think they didn't want to have too many namespace conflicts for people who already were using the full words.
11:48:20  fizzie, uh do they still have the 8 letter identifier thingy?
11:48:26  fizzie, if so I guess that is why
11:48:48  The names themselves are definitely longer than that, and wasn't it already 31 letters also for external names?
11:48:57  oh perhaps
11:49:03  it used to be 8 somewhere
11:49:44  "31 significant initial characters in an external identifier"
11:49:51  It was in C90, at least, IIRC.
11:49:58  ah
11:50:48  Though re those 31, "each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 0000FFFF or less is considered 6 characters, each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 00010000 or more is considered 10 characters, and each extended source character is considered the same number of characters as the corresponding universal character name, if any"
11:51:26  eh...
11:51:39  why those specific boundaries
11:51:41  So if you use only Unicode characters outside the BMP (say you're programming in old turkic), you're only guaranteed three significant characters.
11:51:50  hah
11:52:06  Sounds like they just thought "okay, no-one can be weird enough to use multibyte encodings longer than *this*, can they?"
11:52:38  fizzie, it isn't like any mainstream implementation actually cuts off at that 31 char limit anyway
11:53:26  Well, no. (Also you're guaranteed 63 characters in internal identifiers, and there even Unicode chars count as just one.)
11:53:58  again I doubt any compiler actually cuts off there
11:55:25  C1x also adds u8"foo" UTF-8 string literals, and u"foo" / U"foo" Unicode wide-character (of type char16_t / char32_t, corresponding to UTF-16 / UTF-32, respectively) string literals, and a  header for conflaburating in-between things.
11:56:31  I've seen people assume that wchar_t numbers correspond to Unicode code points before; it's I guess nice to have something that in actual fact always does.
11:57:52  Well, or at least "always does if __STDC_UTF_16__ / __STDC_UTF_32__ are defined", which you can compile-time test easily.
11:59:01  fizzie, they don't. iirc they are usually 16 bits
11:59:18  (wchar_t that is)
11:59:29  I have no clue what wchar_t actually corresponds to though
11:59:52  I'm not sure how comfortable-to-use the C1x Unicode support is, since they haven't added anything into the stdio formatted-output functions for that.
12:00:30  hopefully they will add that
12:01:03  It's going to be somewhat messy if they keep the existing "w-stuff" and then add even more "u-stuff" on top.
12:02:46  I doubt they would drop the w stuff
12:02:55  will*
12:03:20  Well, no. But they might not go through all that complexity to add in the u-stuff.
12:03:40  hm the bounds checking stuff looks interesting
12:04:06  Incidentally, these GCC-4.4  parts that pertain to wchar_t are a bit amusing: http://p.zem.fi/wchar
12:05:01  It's like someone's trying to figure out how many ways you can put "wchar" and "t" together for a header-inclusion guard macro name.
12:05:07  heh
12:05:57  fizzie, is this from somewhere in bits/ ?
12:06:06  oh wait, GCC?
12:06:23  /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4/include/stddef.h in my machine.
12:06:32  I thought GCC just provided limits.h and stdarg.h
12:06:46  /* Why is this file so hard to maintain properly?  In contrast to
12:06:46     the comment above regarding BSD/386 1.1, on FreeBSD for as long
12:06:46     as the symbol has existed, _BSD_RUNE_T_ must not stay defined or
12:06:46     redundant typedefs will occur when stdlib.h is included after this file. */
12:06:51  The writer seems somehow depressed.
12:07:04  hah
12:07:12  (The "comment above" was a bit longish to paste.)
12:08:16  /* In case nobody has defined these types, but we aren't running under
12:08:16     GCC 2.00, make sure that __PTRDIFF_TYPE__, __SIZE_TYPE__, and
12:08:16     __WCHAR_TYPE__ have reasonable values.  This can happen if the
12:08:16     parts of GCC is compiled by an older compiler, that actually
12:08:16     include gstddef.h, such as collect2.  */
12:08:28  Any time I take a peek inside, I'm surprised that these things actually for the most part do work.
12:09:21  hah
12:09:30  why GCC 2.00?
12:09:33  /* snaroff@next.com says the NeXT needs this.  */   /* Irix 5.1 needs this.  */   /* This avoids lossage on SunOS but only if stdtypes.h comes first.  There's no way to win with the other order!  Sun lossage.  */
12:11:33  heh
12:12:08  fizzie, what sort of lossage?
12:12:18  I don't know, and the writer doesn't specify.
12:13:10  fizzie, also "stdtypes.h" sounds suspect. I thought the C standard reserved that prefix
12:14:25  On the topic of "perverse systems": apparently there are some Crays on which size_t is a 32-bit type, as are most pointers, with the exception of "void *"s and "char *"s, which are 64-bit types. (This was in the context of how likely stuffing a pointer into a size_t is to break, as opposed to using uintptr_t which is guaranteed to work but of course only if you actually have uintptr_t and proper .)
12:14:36  fizzie, the bounds checking stuff seems confusing in c1x
12:15:04  fizzie, what about a signed intptr_t?
12:15:31  Well, that too should work, I just wanted to be consistent and use an unsigned type since size_t is one.
12:15:51  ah
12:15:59  fizzie, ssize_t
12:16:20  I always found that one highly suspect
12:16:33  It is a bit iffy, yes.
12:16:50  fizzie, anyway isn't intptr_t/uintptr_t XSI or something? My man page for stdint.h indicates that
12:17:23  They are at least C99 types, though optional.
12:17:28  hm
12:17:33  Since the machine in question simply might not have integers large enough.
12:17:44  :D
12:17:57  (But those Cray boxes do have a 64-bit integer too, it's just that size_t isn't one of them for some interesting reason.)
12:18:29  fizzie, it constantly amazes me that C didn't end up supporting ternary systems
12:20:08  C1x seems to keep the C99 restriction of "it must be either sign-magnitude, one's-complement or two's-complement, not some sort of freaky weird integer encoding".
12:23:39  btw, it is interesting how C99 caused POSIX to restrict CHAR_BIT to exactly 8. IIRC with the restrictions C99 introduced and the old restrictions POSIX had on it, the only possible choice was exactly 8
12:28:06  Mhm, right; that seems to follow from the fact that C99 mandates CHAR_BIT >= 8, and since intN_t must be exactly N bits with no padding or fluff, sizeof(int8_t) must always be 1, and POSIX mandates int{8,16,32}_t.
12:28:54  something like that yes
12:30:15  hm those bounds checking functions seem rather weak
12:30:41  Where does it say that intN_t has to take up N bits of space?
12:30:57  Deewiant: "The typedef name intN_t designates a signed integer type with width N , no padding bits, and a two’s complement representation."
12:31:04  Alright
12:31:09  fizzie, is that C or POSIX?
12:31:24  Well, it was the C1x draft, but I do think it's the same in C99.
12:31:26  I assumed C
12:31:28  ah
12:31:35  (I had that handily open.)
12:32:03  wait, isn't stdio functions with the _s suffix some sort of silliness that MSVC invented?
12:32:22  The "_s for safe"? Yes, I at least thought those were Microsoft things.
12:32:32  fizzie, they seem to be in the C1x draft
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12:32:38  snprintf_s in particular seems utterly silly
12:33:34  "snprintf_s is equivalent to snprintf, adding run-time constraints that restrict format from being null, n being less than zero and less than RSIZE_MAX."
12:34:14  RSIZE_MAX... why on earth
12:34:47  I'm happy with gcc's __attribute__ to warn me about mismatching format strings and null pointers. It works and seems far more useful than that
12:34:52  "ISO/IEC TR 24731-1 recommends that RSIZE_MAX be defined as the smaller of the size of the largest object supported or (SIZE_MAX >> 1), even if this limit is smaller than the size of some legitimate, but very large, objects."
12:36:00  oh god, there is gets_s
12:36:27  but they recommend fgets rather than it
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12:36:47  It seems a bit funny.
12:37:10  no it is tragic
12:37:23  gets_s reads lines, fgets reads strings.
12:37:26  It does the bounds-checking, but "maintains a one-to-one relationship between input lines and successful calls to gets_s. Programs that use gets expect such a relationship."
12:37:48  memcpy_s looks utterly pointless as well
12:37:53  Why would any program use gets? Isn't that the dangerous function/
12:38:03  Many programs do dangerous things.
12:38:30  really they should have added strlcpy and strlcat, that would have been way more useful
12:39:21  Well, strcpy_s's buffer-size parameter is at least the sensible one.
12:39:50  that is indeed an improvement
12:40:22  Also they seem to be reasonably consistently so that there's always the destination buffer and it's size.
12:40:53  for memcpy it seems utterly pointless however
12:41:35  It's there so that you don't forget to do the check yourself, I guess.
12:41:43  Or to catch it if you do it wrong.
12:42:19  it seems a lot more annoying to use than gcc's and glibc's stuff.
12:42:30  and it doesn't even do as much
12:42:45  no format check for format strings as far as I can see
12:43:06  memset_s seems utterly stupid
12:43:54  What's the "gcc's and glibc's stuff" that's equivalent to these
12:45:08  Deewiant, well -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 does a good job, plus various __attribute__s like nonnull, format, whatever-the-name-was-for-the-one-that-warns-if-you-throw-away-return-value and so on
12:45:44  the fortify source one is closest to this, and is transparent. I believe Ubuntu has it on at level 1 by default
12:47:03  Evidently at 2
12:47:11  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags#-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
12:47:18  Deewiant, also for gcc, it can sometimes turn it into a compile time check when optimising
12:47:22  rather than a runtime check
12:47:50  this is done with various weird __builtin_foo() functions
12:48:05  That can be done with the _s functions as well, depending on their implementation.
12:48:46  Deewiant, true, but they aren't done transparently. Requires more work
12:49:11  No, they require less work of compiler writers. :-P
12:49:41  Deewiant, and they still won't give you a warning if doing something like printf("Error: %s (%d)\n", 42, "Generic error");
12:49:44  memcpy_s() { if (I don't like your parameters) { abort() or whatever; } else return memcpy(); }
12:50:06  I'd prefer proper "here we actually know the buffer length" checks over "let's put some stuff behind the buffer and see if it gets overwritten" checks.
12:50:12  Vorpal: No, but that's again difficult.
12:50:18  Deewiant, but a lot more useful
12:50:45  It's also a QOI issue and not something that (well, arguably) should be in a language standard. :p
12:50:48  I'm not sure I agree: if printf fails it's at least almost always obvious
12:51:02  If memcpy fails it might just corrupt some unrelated data
12:51:07  fizzie, the latter is still useful. But that isn't what _FORTIFY_SOURCE does afaik. -fstack-protector does that
12:51:45  If it doesn't do that, I don't see how it could even theoretically check for buffer overflows for a dynamically allocated buffer.
12:52:19  Deewiant, but what about memset_s then. Most probably the most common use for it is to zero fill a buffer. You pass it a pointer, a buffer length, a value to fill with, and how much to fill
12:52:38  most of the time people probably use memset to fill an entire buffer
12:52:52  or at least an entire buffer after an offset (in case of realloc or such)
12:53:16  in which case the two lengths will equal each other. Are you going to write two different code paths for them?
12:53:35  If you feel yourself writing memset_s(buf, max, 0, max), maybe you could then just consider writing memset(buf, 0, max) in that particular row?
12:53:58  Though I guess then you won't get the null-pointer runtime constraint checks.
12:54:25  fizzie, sure. I'm just trying to point out that in general these _s variants seem fairly laughably stupid. Possibly with the exception of strcpy_s.
12:54:39  Or strcat_s?
12:54:46  So far only memset_s seems a bit silly
12:54:48  haven't looked at that one *does so*
12:54:55  Deewiant, gets_s too
12:55:02  gets_s is fine.
12:55:10  Deewiant, and snprintf_s
12:55:13  gets_s is fine if you really don't feel like bothering to actually handle long lines.
12:55:17  It's what gets should've been in the first place.
12:56:35  fizzie, okay strcat_s seems reasonable
12:56:54  snprintf_s is another one that just does sensible checks that snprintf should've done, but can't now because of backwards compatibility
12:57:11  Deewiant, the null pointer thing?
12:57:54  No null target or format string, no %n, no null arguments to %s
12:58:18  %n shouldn't have been there in the first place
12:58:22  Not sure what an "encoding error" is for sprintf, that may be sensible as well
12:59:14  From what I can tell, the aim here would be that instead of doing something like  assert(buf != NULL); assert(arg != NULL); snprintf(buf, n, "foo: %s", arg);  you get a runtime-fail-at-least-sort-of-nicely behaviour with just  assert(snprintf_s(buf, n, "foo: %s", arg) >= 0);  or some-such. (A bit contrived example, but anyway.)
12:59:36  fizzie, wait, does the checking depend on NDEBUG?
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12:59:40  if so that is awful
12:59:42  And the "you can't pass buffer sizes that span more than half the address space" seems fairly reasonable too, at least by default
12:59:43  Well, no.
13:00:00  I was meaning an always-on assert here. :p
13:00:18  Deewiant, that depends. Though I doubt anyone will be insane enough to use this on an embedded system anyway
13:00:26  at least not the tiny ones
13:00:30  Like said, by default
13:00:54  It seems like a good default, but it should be overrideable
13:01:35  it would be better to add saner strings instead
13:01:53  pascal style: 
13:01:54  or such
13:02:52  Atomo reminds me a little of Factor
13:05:26  bbl
13:25:02  Vorpal: The stack-smashing protection seems to still have this old data leak problem too: http://p.zem.fi/memcpy.c
13:40:46  fizzie, err. What happened there
13:41:38  fizzie, also uh, doesn't look like a major issue that it reports the new value. Aids in debugging certainly
13:41:49  Those values are my own printfs.
13:42:07  then what is the data leak?
13:42:36  In the fact that the "you smashed the stack" error message will blindly follow the new overwritten argv[0] value, and print it out.
13:42:50  If this were a suid-something program, you could use that to read out anything in its address space.
13:42:52  ah
13:42:57  hm indeed
13:43:42  Here I've just read out the "SECRET DATA" string which I could pick from the executable, or just read from /proc I guess, but it's more problematical for suid executables that, say, read out /etc/shadow in memory, then after that have a (exploitable) buffer overflow somewhere.
13:44:15  hm indeed
13:45:10  Anyway, it's an old thing, there's at least one mail about it in Apr 2010 on the full-disclosure mailing list; and I guess it's possible it's already fixed, I'm not exactly using the latest tools here at work.
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14:07:28  MY COMPUTER HUNG UP AND I DIDN'T REBOOT IT IMMEDIATELY
14:07:35  MY LIFE IS BEGINNING TO SHATTER
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15:08:34  "mkdir: cannot create directory `misc': No space left on device" -- that's always a nice thing to get from the "project work" filesystem.
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15:26:06  fizzie, quotas?
15:26:21   MY COMPUTER HUNG UP AND I DIDN'T REBOOT IT IMMEDIATELY <-- do you have a hardware watchdog?
15:26:26  No, just a 3.7 terabyte NFS share that is full.
15:26:30  fizzie, hah
15:26:38  They keep talking about implementing quotas, though.
15:26:44  I think home directories already have some.
15:27:02  fizzie, I'd like a "hilbert's SSD".
15:27:09       Filesystem  blocks   quota   limit   grace   files   quota   limit   grace
15:27:10                    2277M   4096M   4096M           21218   4295m   4295m
15:27:18  Yes, there is a home directory quota.
15:27:22  4G, I guess.
15:27:25  heh
15:27:57  I should probably clean ~ some day, since there should be mostly code, documents and stuff like that in there.
15:29:07  Vorpal: what would you do with it?  it's unlikely you'll ever have an infinite amount of data arriving at once.
15:29:43  quintopia, yes but even if you have a finite amount you will always have space for it
15:30:30  Also you don't ever need to erase data, so the SSD write-cycle-durability thing shouldn't be an issue.
15:30:59  quintopia, and in the unlikely event that someone gives you a full HilbertFlashCard you can always copy it all to the SSD
15:31:13  (note: you need a good data bus for this)
15:31:25  fizzie, that too
15:31:36  fizzie, except hm you do need to move data, don't you?
15:31:46  oh wait I guess it remaps that
15:32:09  If you restrict yourself to getting only finite amounts of data, you can always just append.
15:32:38  fizzie, that seems like a rather arbitrary limitation
15:33:09  yeah, those realistic assumptions always seem so arbitrary
15:33:18  :D
15:35:39  i suspect seek times would get ridiculous if you need to retrieve data at infinity though
15:35:48  quintopia, on an SSD?
15:35:58  quintopia, they don't have seek times
15:36:14  they do if they're infinite
15:36:34  the time for the address to get mapped to the correct location and the data to return
15:36:35  quintopia, besides there is no point infinity. Hilbert's hotel iirc deals with potential infinities
15:37:00  there is an infinite amount of wiring needed there and the signal has to travel at the slow slow speed of light
15:37:17  quintopia, hm true
15:37:24  My Pandora shipped.
15:37:28  TO THE WRONG ADDRESS.
15:37:32  Mail forwarding, don't fail me now.
15:37:39  yes i know, but imagine retrieiving data from the following sequence of addresses: 2,4,8,16 etc.
15:37:39  quintopia, unless we just keep halving the size forever
15:37:46  quintopia, then it can fit into a finite space
15:38:01  after a while each successive bit will take enormously long time to arrive
15:38:17  quintopia, in fact you can do that in two minute. Half it after 1 minute. Half it after another half minute, then 15 seconds, and so on
15:38:29  then after 2 minutes you fitted it all into an infinitely small disk
15:38:59  infinitely small?  you mean infinitely fine-grained resolution?
15:39:18  i suppose that works, but requires some creative manipulation of physics locally
15:39:32  quintopia, well duh :P
15:40:29  Gregor: I feel tempted to shout "Don't open that box!"
15:40:41  fizzie: Yeah, it's a poor name :P
15:41:05  what is a pandora again?
15:41:21  Linux-based game system.
15:41:32  how many games does it have?
15:41:38  so far I mean
15:41:45  Zero, or thousands if you include emulators X-P
15:41:49  hah
15:42:10  Gregor, can it run bsnes? I bet pikhq will ask you about this anyway
15:42:17  so I'm saving time by asking you now
15:42:24  Probably, it can emulate a PSX ...
15:42:35  But if you really want to run bsnes, you're a durp :P
15:42:43  Gregor, "durp"?
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15:42:52  Gregor, hm that sounds rather impressive. What are the specs? And what about battery life
15:42:55  Asking what a durp is is such a durp question to ask.
15:43:00  oh is it like those super-awesome handheld gaming things they have on thinkgeek for hundreds of dollars?
15:43:17  http://openpandora.org/
15:43:20  using google's "define:" I get "No definitions were found for durp."
15:44:33  Gregor, looks nice. Was it made with reprap? ;)
15:46:01  holy shit
15:46:05  it's got everything
15:46:08  :P
15:46:18  quintopia, except a keyboard large enough to use
15:46:23  quintopia: That's 'cuz it's expensive :P
15:46:38  Gregor, is it li-ion?
15:46:48  Vorpal: it's a fucking handheld gaming platform.  wtf do you want a keyboard for?
15:46:48  Donno :P
15:46:49  Specwise the hardware is really close to my phone. (Which is also 600 MHz Cortex-A8 ARM + TI 64x DSP + PowerVR SGX530 GPU with a 800x480 touchscreen. Of course the phone's keyboard is really not-for-gaming.)
15:47:12  quintopia, hm. chatting in minecraft or something ;)
15:48:04  Vorpal: work on your texting speed.  you can type surprisingly fast with your thumbs with practice
15:48:44  quintopia, depends. Not like I text very often.
15:49:01  4-5 SMS / week? Something like that
15:49:23  quintopia, also I fail to see how it would help with that gaming console
15:49:25  i irc on my phone. i'm not as fast as keyboard yet, but working on it
15:49:34  a keypad is very different from a qwerty layout
15:49:41  well, you have to practice on the gaming console obviously
15:49:59  ohhhhhhhhhhh you don't have a qwerty keyboard on your phone
15:50:01  i see
15:50:16  quintopia, I use phones until they break :P
15:51:10  quintopia, besides if I can't use it with gloves on it isn't worth the money. And resistive touchscreens seem to be getting rare.
15:51:57  yes, you live in a place where you can't get by with thin gloves, don't you
15:52:18  quintopia, indeed. I use very thick ones when it is -20 C outside and blowing hard. And snowing.
15:52:27  in any case, my qwerty keyboard has actual buttons
15:52:31  buttons are nice
15:52:32  That happened a few weeks ago. Had to use phone to check bus schedule
15:52:42  The physical keyboards don't tend to be large enough for gloveing either.
15:52:55  I tend to just poke at the on-screen keyboard if it's too cold out there.
15:52:57  fizzie: agreed.  best to have fingerless mittens in that case
15:53:00  fizzie, indeed. You can manage keypad if you are careful
15:53:10  quintopia, that is not really an option around here
15:53:35  Vorpal: it is an option anywhere!  fingerless mittens are the greatest thing ever!
15:53:36  Vorpal: Don't get an iPhone, they blow up at <0 degrees C and Apple's warranty only covers use in 0-35 degrees C. (There was a case in Norway.)
15:53:50  fizzie, hah
15:53:54  perfect finger coverage when you need it, no hassles when you don't!
15:53:57  fizzie, I wouldn't get one anyway
15:54:30  because droid >>>>>>>>>> iphone
15:54:49  quintopia, yeah and maemo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> droid
15:54:58  Maemo's pretty much dead now. :p
15:55:08  fizzie, well meego then?
15:55:10  Will see how it goes with MeeGo, right.
15:56:46  They're setting up some sort of a "community firmware update" repository thing for Maemo, since you can't (easily) update packages that are classified as "system" packages from the normal community repositories, and there are quite a few bugfix-patches existing for the system packages too.
15:56:47  why is meego better than droid?  what carriers does it work with?
15:57:14  The whole "what carriers does it work with?" thing is something I just never get. Around here the iPhone is the only thing that is ever carrier-locked.
15:57:14  quintopia, how would the carrier depend on the phone OS?
15:57:22  quintopia, that makes no sense
15:57:58  Vorpal: Welcome to the US.
15:57:59  you buy a phone. Then you buy a SIM card. Then you combine the two.
15:58:01  Also, stop calling it "droid"
15:58:07  Vorpal: i judge a phone by the hardware first, the carrier second, and the OS third
15:58:23  quintopia, well we have no clue since things are not generally carrier locked around here
15:58:32  quintopia: Vorpal refuses to understand how phones work in the US. It's not that he can't, he chooses not to.
15:58:36  Gregor: i'm referring to the motorola droid and droid 2.  that's their official name.
15:58:53  quintopia: Oh, since Vorpal was comparing it to maemo I thought we were talking about Android :P
15:58:54  quintopia, ah I thought you meant "android"
15:59:40  quintopia, anyway if you want a specific phone look at n900 (maemo). Don't think meego is in any phone yet, but it is the successor to maemo
16:00:45  Also, Android rules :P
16:00:48  MeeGo is sort of a hybrid of Maemo and Intel's Moblin. (And I'm a bit doubtful as to how well it'll go.)
16:02:32  yeah the n900 looks roughly equivalent to the droid in terms of hardware
16:02:36  Gregor, too much java
16:02:44  maemo is more gtk (yay)
16:02:48  It's not REAL Java X-P
16:02:50  ew gtk
16:02:58  quintopia, iirc meego is qt
16:02:59  not sure
16:04:28  ANYWAY, Pandora.
16:04:28  Hopin' I actually get mine.
16:04:43  I wanted to write ZEE for it, but have no story/photo person >_>
16:05:02  Gregor, isn't zee js?
16:05:06  so it should work on there
16:05:30  Vorpal: Well, I mean it was the possibility of the Pandora being a nice platform for it that led me to want a Pandora :P
16:05:39  (In part)
16:06:02  hah
16:06:17  My Eternally Stalled Project *sigh*
16:07:04  Android schmandroid: isn't it so that even on those supposedly "open" phones you have some sort of "jailbreaks"?
16:07:27  fizzie, that's a function of the manufacturers, not Android itself
16:07:44  Also MeeGo is now Qt instead of GTK.
16:07:45  fizzie: On the actually "open" phones you don't, the ones that you have to "jailbreak" don't claim to be open.
16:07:59  fizzie: However, unlike iPhone, you don't have to jailbreak to run custom software.
16:08:05  Gregor, how many are open then
16:08:14  Vorpal: Only the "developer" ones.
16:08:31  Vorpal: i.e. ones bought directly via Google.
16:08:44  Gregor, so in practise they are all closed?
16:09:04  Vorpal: Yes. But a closed Android phone is nowhere NEAR as restricted as a closed iPhone. It's not even a valid comparison.
16:09:22  Gregor, but it is closed compared to an n900!
16:09:33  Fair enough *shrugs*
16:09:53  i don't know how hard it is to root an android phone
16:10:00  quintopia, depends on the phone
16:10:02  And the N900 is closed compared to openmoko.
16:10:05  quintopia, what about compiling a custom kernel?
16:10:07  but developer phones are already rooted
16:10:21  yeah, developers effectively get root
16:10:29  with non-developers, it varies
16:10:34  The point is not "how hard", it shouldn't be necessary at all.
16:10:44  fizzie, indeed
16:11:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:11:10  if you buy hardware it should be yours. And it should be up to you what you do with it
16:11:20  this is true, but the apps that depend on rooting target a very small portion of the market, so they are unlikely to change that.
16:11:50  fizzie: For the iPhone, it's basically Apple douchebaggery. For Android, it's mainly around preventing arbitrary /apps/ from getting root, and not giving random-idiot-user the idea that there is such a thing.
16:12:00  quintopia, oh right, they don't even come with a proper native userland.
16:12:37  N900 comes with an xterm in the app menu.
16:12:47  Here's the problem: Propose a solution that would allow developers to root without putting total morons in possible jeopardy (keep in mind that morons will click "yes" and put in their password for any reason)
16:12:48  awesome
16:13:16  Gregor, n900 seems to have managed without major issues
16:13:23  Vorpal: n900 has no users.
16:13:27  Vorpal: it does have a unixy filesystem with all of the unixy programs you'd expect though.  you can throw a shell on it right off and start doing unixy things.
16:13:33  Gregor, fizzie uses it
16:13:41  Vorpal: Like I said.
16:13:58  I'm a nobody?!
16:14:10  compared to average joe user, yes
16:14:19  fizzie, seems like that nasty evil Gregor thinks so
16:14:21  you are not a significant demographic
16:14:40  fizzie: You're not a USER, people who actually know how the OS works are 0.000000001% of the target market.
16:15:54  if computers were cars, almost no one would pass the driving test.
16:16:37  Vorpal: Most people who use computers without full knowledge don't end up hitting someone with their computer and killing them.
16:17:01  Gregor, quite, they end up sending a lot of spam
16:17:41  Vorpal: Also, the vast majority of drivers in the US couldn't tell you what a transmission is.
16:17:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:18:03  driving a car doesn't require you to know how to do an oil change, as sad as that sounds.  there are people you can pay to do it for you
16:18:12  Gregor: Maemo forums are full of real users. (Complaining about Nokia selling them this confusing... thing.)
16:18:13  Gregor, do you mean not tell how it works, or do you mean how to use it?
16:18:48  Vorpal: I mean if you said "Does your car have a transmission?", they would say "Durrr, what's that?"
16:19:03  i'm not sure if vast majority would say that
16:19:14  probably a good number of folks with automatics would
16:19:24  but people with sticks probably have some idea
16:19:24  quintopia: Which is ... everyone in the US :P
16:19:28  Gregor, but uh, do they not know how to change gear?
16:20:00  Vorpal: see previously line about automatic transmission
16:20:00  Vorpal: Manual gearshifts are a slim minority of power-users and mocked sports-car-morons in the US.
16:20:06  at least here the driving exam is on manual transmission
16:20:18  heck you hardly ever see automatic transmission around
16:20:23  actually, now it seems like everything's going to CVTs...wonder how long it will be
16:20:26  Vorpal: Why is that "at least"? I don't know how to drive a manual, that doesn't make me a bad driver.
16:20:54  Gregor, at least as in "at least in this part of Europe, but I don't know about other parts of it"
16:21:40  Gregor, I fail to see where I implied automatic is bad (except it is less fuel efficient iirc)
16:22:08  quintopia, CVT?
16:22:16  "at least" -> "to suggest that you have to be at least a little bit competent," :P
16:22:35  vorpal: you know.  those things without discrete "gears".
16:22:39  ;P
16:22:48  Gregor, at least = anyway
16:22:58  Gregor, says google. It can have many meanings.
16:23:10  X-P
16:23:16  tbf, i did read it gregor's way at first
16:23:36  it is a very ambiguous phrase
16:23:41  quintopia, hm that CVT interesting. How does that work internally I wonder.
16:23:49  Vorpal: MAGIC.
16:23:53  Vorpal: see howstuffworks article
16:24:02  it explains 3 or 4 different types of CVT
16:24:07  quintopia, I was actually checking wikipedia
16:24:50  National Hat Day (USA) is January 15th
16:24:52  Discuss.
16:25:29  i suspect that everything that doesn't need immense amounts of torque and speed simultaneously will eventually be on CVTs in the next half-century or so.  They seem much more fuel-efficient than "modern" transmissions
16:25:44 -!- j-invariant has joined.
16:25:53  Gregor: oh goody.  i have just the hat.
16:26:36  DISCUSSION INSUFFICIENT :P
16:27:35  regarding the number which nobody noticed between three and four: I have managed to take a solved rubicks cube and twist it into an unsolvable state
16:27:35  quintopia, hm indeed. I suppose you can manually override them for when the road conditions need different gear? Or I guess computers can detect such nowdays
16:28:52  j-invariant, ... what
16:28:52  yep.  automatic traction control
16:29:03  quintopia, I presume most cars have that?
16:29:10  sure
16:29:11  since it is likely to be needed quite often
16:29:24  quintopia, then certainly people will know what transmission is
16:29:30  less often than you'd think around here.  this weather is the exception, not the rule
16:29:43  quintopia, I'm sure there are parts of US where that is not the case
16:30:05  Even here in Indiana where it snows all winter, the roads are plowed well enough that you never need to even use chains.
16:30:06  Alaska comes to mind. But even in northen mainland US...
16:30:43  Gregor, plowing doesn't help when you get rain which freezes as it hits the ground.
16:30:48  Last winter I drove an automatic Toyota Echo from Oregon to Indiana and never had to set the gear manually X-P
16:30:54  Vorpal: Salting does.
16:31:45  Gregor, only when it doesn't get cold very quickly after. This happened last week or so here. Dropped from -1 C with rain to -20 C in a few hours (rain stopped when it went below -3 C or so)
16:31:55  Gregor, no time to pour salt on every small street
16:32:08  sand helps to some degree
16:32:21  and salt doesn't work when it is really cold
16:32:56  I think you've just reduced the affected population of the US to near-zero.
16:33:08  Gregor, I can't say that sort of weather is common here
16:33:26  but this winter and the one before have been extreme
16:33:42  The six people in Minnesota who have experienced such weather were simply snowed in :P
16:34:02  Gregor, what about Alaska?
16:34:12  They fly or walk, driving is much less common there.
16:34:40  The southern part of Alaska is more temperate, and the rest isn't accessible by road.
16:35:32  hm
16:36:48  Gregor, I guess they could use snowmobiles or similar. They are popular in the extreme northern parts of Sweden
16:36:50  Although yes, I'm sure that those who drive know damn well how to drive a manual :P
16:37:37  I wouldn't know how to drive an automatic. Manual I know.
16:37:56  I don't think it's possible to not know how to drive an automatic. You could learn in thirty seconds.
16:38:10  vorpal: a lot of people in AK don't drive all winter i hear.  that's what their bushplanes are for :P
16:38:45  quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P
16:39:07  Vorpal: If you live in Alaska, you have one. (OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not as much of one as you think)
16:39:12  being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:39:46  Gregor, how many pedals do you have in an automatic? The usual three?
16:39:54  `addquote  vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly    quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P    being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:39:56  well, everyone in AK are close friends with each other anyway.  hell, they can see russia from their front porch :P
16:39:58  Vorpal: No clutch.
16:40:25  266)  vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly    quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P    being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:40:28  Gregor, how do you prevent rolling backwards if you are starting uphill then?
16:41:10  Vorpal: That's what your fancy automatic transmission is for.
16:41:17  yeah, it just doesn't happen
16:41:40  idling speed gives you a little bit of forward momentum all the time
16:41:44  because it's always engaged
16:42:11  quintopia, so what if you want to stand still, say, waiting for traffic to pass before crossing a major road? Brake down?
16:42:16  yep
16:42:24  keep the brake down or put it in neutral
16:42:25  Or put it in park if you're there for very long.
16:42:41  quintopia, sounds like it would take more time to start driving from that
16:42:54  why?
16:43:07  you don't have to shift first
16:43:14  you just move your foot to the other pedal...
16:43:19  quintopia, nor would you with a manual transmission
16:43:45  Vorpal: All you have to do is LIFT your foot from the brake to start moving forward.
16:43:46  you would just release the clutch more than the equilibrium point. Since you would be in the first gear
16:43:55  yes well
16:44:03  Gregor, hm true. About the same then
16:44:05  you also have to do a lot of work to get up to speed after that
16:44:15  quintopia, with manual? Not really.
16:44:22  quintopia, it comes naturally after all
16:44:28  once you learnt it
16:44:41  so does the automatic...naturally as in...you don't do anything :P
16:44:54  still.  CVTs.  way of the future.
16:45:05  quintopia, yes they sound interesting indeed.
16:50:24  so, question: would you rather have to start a process by pressing 5 buttons in quick succession and then walking away, or by pressing two buttons with a wait of approximately one second in between them.  total time is about the same, but in the first case you have to do more work and in the second you have to stand there and do nothing for a whole second.
16:50:57  quintopia, I would prefer the one that worked on road conditions around here :P
16:51:20  specifically, this is the coice i have for setting my microwave to 1:30
16:51:26  (it runs on no roads around there)
16:51:52  quintopia, well then, that depends on that operation. I guess I would prefer the one I could run netbsd on
16:53:51  you're creating differences between the two operations that aren't there.  this is just two different ways to do the same operation on the same microwave.  the only difference is the one i gave and there are no other differences.
16:54:36  quintopia, I would probably choose randomly between them each time. And also wonder what the point of two ways on the same product was
16:55:04  then I would realise it was Perl, not Python
16:56:54    lol
16:57:08  this somehow moved me this morning: http://everything2.com/user/Wolfeh42/writeups/January+13%252C+2011
17:01:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:03:38  Star Trek Table of Elementa is very mixed up.
17:04:46  quintopia, hm how can you engine brake with automatic? Sure a bit would work but you couldn't control it very well.
17:06:11  Vorpal: Automatic has gears other than "drive", they're not commonly used though. Basically if you put it in first gear, then the engine will clutch and change gears for you when possible.
17:06:26  Vorpal: "Engine breaking" is a technique not commonly known in the US though, I suspect.
17:06:52  Gregor, here you won't pass driving test if you can't do it nowdays. Because it saves fuel to use it.
17:07:40  Vorpal: It saves fuel on a manual, on an automatic you'll automatically shift down if you brake and slow down anyway.
17:08:16  It also saves on brake pads though :P
17:08:43  Gregor, if you brake you will surely still engange the brake pads. Which means less fuel saving since more energy gets lost as heat. Simple physics.
17:09:00  Hey, MC now has two kinds of wood.
17:09:05  That's actually quite cool.
17:09:08  Phantom_Hoover, update out?
17:09:10  hm
17:09:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:09:38  I thought it was a bug, but then I tried cutting it down.
17:09:59  Vorpal: I'm not arguing that the fuel savings are the SAME, I'm arguing that it's more of a deal for manual than for automatic.
17:10:07  well ok
17:10:19  Phantom_Hoover, screenshot? I'm using the alternative launcher thingy so I don't need to update to login.
17:10:45  i engine break when i need to, on steep winding rodes
17:10:51  exactly the way gregor describes
17:10:59  ugh
17:11:02  I'm not sure I'm going to upgrade until ineiros update. And that probably means waiting for bukkit (horrible name), since hmod will be dropped
17:11:02  *engine brake
17:11:03  Vorpal, http://imgur.com/TgHcQ
17:11:05  he's got me doing it now
17:11:17  I'm going to look for reeds.
17:11:26  Phantom_Hoover, oh, looks like birch?
17:11:26  Basically, to drive an automatic: Forget everything you ever learned about shifting. If you want to go forward, put it in "D". If you want to go backwards, put it in "R". If you want to park, put it in "P". If you don't want to move or want to slow down, use the brake. That is literally everything there is that is necessary to drive an automatic.
17:11:33  Phantom_Hoover, or whatever the English word is
17:11:33  Vorpal, yeah.
17:11:37  björk in Swedish
17:11:54  Phantom_Hoover, I guess painterly is broken now?
17:12:04  Vorpal, haven't tried it.
17:12:06  Probably.
17:12:14  gregor: don't forget overdrive
17:12:19  Gregor, and if you want to drive in bad winter conditions?
17:12:25  quintopia: Why? Most people do.
17:12:26  FWIW, I can see a very tall tree with all of the leaves bunched up at the top in a snowy biome.
17:12:34  i have to put overdrive on above 45mph to keep the engine from winding up way too high
17:12:35  Vorpal: Then you put on chains and suffer.
17:12:46  quintopia: ... you turn overdrive /off/?
17:12:55  Gregor, chains? You mean winter wheels with steel studs
17:13:01  dubbdäck in Swedish
17:13:04  Gregor: below 45mph to keep the engine from running too slow
17:13:08  Vorpal: No, I mean chains.
17:13:22  quintopia: You're a poor excuse for an automatic driver X-P
17:13:33  note that OD on my van is a separate gear and not a button on the shifter
17:13:34  Gregor, you don't use studded wheels?
17:14:02  studded wheels?
17:14:05  what are those?
17:14:05  Vorpal: Not typically. I have a set of chains for the rare occasion that I need more winter traction (read: never), it would be a huge waste to have winter wheels.
17:14:09 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
17:14:09  they are surely a myth
17:14:25  quintopia, not around here
17:14:30  most people have them
17:14:40  In most locales in the US they're wildly illegal.
17:15:08  Gregor, NOT IN ALASKA I BET ;P
17:15:28  DURPADURP!
17:15:40  Vorpal, http://imgur.com/Jmvfm
17:15:46  Vorpal: Last I checked, the vast majority of the US is MORE TEMPERATE than Swedeland! SHOCKA
17:15:57  Probably meant to be a conifer.
17:15:58  Gregor, they are only legal during winter here. And during winter you have to use them (or non-studded snow tires) to be legal
17:16:04  HUMANZZZZZZzzzzz
17:16:17 * cheater00 shoots death rays out of his empty eyesockets
17:16:20  Phantom_Hoover, nice
17:16:23  Vorpal: Can't use chains at all, or they're just not even something done there?
17:16:54  Gregor, rarely used. Legal if conditions warrants it iirc
17:17:01  very rare
17:17:35  Gregor, but iirc you have to stop and take them off if you get onto a road that don't need them. Which make them inconvenient for most drivers.
17:18:06  as opposed to taking them off at full speed? i can see how that saves time
17:18:12  Vorpal: Both chains and studded tires beat the hell out of dry roads.
17:18:13  cheater00, :P
17:18:22  :P
17:18:32  Gregor, well yes. But you will have a hard time finding dry roads here this time of the year.
17:18:46  Gregor, anyway they save lives compared to non-studded winter tires.
17:18:57  Vorpal: So do chains :P
17:19:14  Gregor, true. Still they are not very common.
17:20:18  Gregor, also limits speed more iirc
17:22:05  Vorpal, FWIW, the normal and birch wood don't actually stack on each other.
17:22:10  Vorpal: Again, Sweden vs. USA. We don't swap our actual /tires/ because the need for added traction is only warranted some tiny amount of the time, and in some tiny amount of roads. The vast majority of roads are either plowed and drivable with any ol' all-weather tire, or completely snowed over and not drivable no matter how good your tire augmentation is (i.e. snowmobilable), with the latter being a very small set.
17:22:22  Phantom_Hoover, well seems reasonable
17:22:56  They also both refine to normal planks.
17:22:57  Gregor, plowing doesn't perfectly clean a road however.
17:23:04  Phantom_Hoover, okay that makes less sense
17:23:22  Phantom_Hoover, what about other crafting from them?
17:23:28  (is there some?)
17:23:40  None that I know of, although I didn't really bother experimenting.
17:24:01  "* Reeds magically turned into sugar canes. They still make paper."
17:24:02  what
17:24:07  that's sad
17:24:14  it's to make cake
17:24:22  Also, Birch makes better root beer (birch beer) than conventional Sarsparilla/Sassafras (or artificial imitations thereof), but noooo, birch beer is hard to find.
17:24:24  j-invariant, he could add a separate ones
17:24:25  one*
17:24:38  In a studded tire, there may only be up to 50 studs per metre (of circumference), and the maximum extent out of the tire surface is 1.2 mm. (Was trying to find out the state of winter tireage in Finland.)
17:24:41  I'm assuming that they're weird Minecraft canes.
17:24:50  fizzie, heh
17:25:10  "* One secret useful block" <-- mhm
17:25:11  Gregor: birch beer is deliciouuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssssssssss
17:25:26  "* Paintings work in multiplayer" <--- yay finally
17:25:27  quintopia: I KNOW RIGHT
17:25:37  what's that company that makes all those fruit sodas?
17:25:50  December, January and Feburary are the obligatory winter-tire months here.
17:25:51  they made a birch one once and i've NEVER SEEN IT AGAIN SINCE.
17:25:52  "* Fixed colors going weird on PowerPC" <-- how did that happen
17:26:06  Notch quality engineering, that's how!
17:26:25  My bet: endianness.
17:26:27  "* Fixed most lighting bugs in newly generated SMP maps" <--- newly generated. Right. Well I guess it is better than making the server load everything on next start.
17:26:29  When elliott comes in I am just going to tell him the changes were "there's cake and also two new types of tree."
17:26:35  could fix it on the fly maybe
17:26:50  Phantom_Hoover, the cake is a lie surely?
17:26:55  Oho, reeds!
17:27:03  Phantom_Hoover, screenshot?
17:27:21  They look exactly the same.
17:27:25  They craft into sugar.
17:27:28  ...
17:29:22  Vorpal: Re hMod, he just said that it will be dropped when bukkit is ready; my guess is it might still get a Beta 1.2 update. (Unless you've seen something further on it.)
17:29:33  (There are, after all, >1 contributor to the hMod repo.)
17:29:49  Perhaps I should have kept a reed handy to start a farm to try to craft cake.
17:30:45  pretty sure I saw that it wouldn't be upgraded
17:30:48  You make cake ... out of reeds?
17:30:50  Yummy.
17:31:03  fizzie, not official however
17:31:42  The only thing I saw was the hMod thread, which still states "Bukkit will be superseding hMod. Once Bukkit is ready, hMod will no longer be updated. I no longer have an interest in Minecraft, so this change is for the best." .. and I think Bukkit is quite far from being ready.
17:32:04  I have to say that I think this update is the best since Halloween.
17:32:09  It actually adds things.
17:32:28  A water mob! Dyes! Cake!
17:33:05  Black sheep!
17:33:50 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
17:33:57  I don't think I have ever milked a cow in MC; I didn't even know they were milkable.
17:33:57  Apparently flowers craft to dye now.
17:34:34  fizzie: What else is milkable?
17:34:48  Logically, all mammals should be, but I'm betting that's not the case!
17:34:55  Probably nothing else.
17:35:05 * Gregor sips from his tall glass of pig's milk.
17:35:09  Sheep are shearable, cows are milkable, pigs are ridable.
17:35:18  The right tool.. er, animal, for the right job.
17:35:41  And chickens are... a nuisance?
17:35:49  can you not kick them?
17:35:59  IF YOU KICK THEM, DO THEY NOT BLEED?
17:36:09  Yes, but that's not a chicken-specific act, you can kick the other animals too.
17:36:17 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:36:22  seems like chickens should fly farther though
17:36:23  fizzie, they're a source of feathers.
17:36:25  And eggs.
17:37:02  Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you can't do a thing to them.
17:37:18  Well, eggs are now used in cake.
17:37:46  Can you bake them?
17:37:56  Fry them?
17:37:58  Deep-fry them?
17:38:35  Deep-deep-deep-deep-deep-deep-fry them.
17:39:18  Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, you can't do a chicken-specific act that would result a chicken dropping an egg; there's nothing you can do by right-clicking them.
17:39:44  Shallow-fried chicken, for those who want the insides to be raw.
17:40:26  Well can you at LEAST bugger 'em?
17:41:08  They
17:41:14  're not hedgehogs, so I'd *guess*.
17:41:58  In-game I mean
17:42:00  There are also octopodes now.
17:42:11  Phantom_Hoover: OCTOPODES, NO!
17:42:22  They drop ink sacs when they die, so I assume they're another source of dye.
17:42:24  Phantom_Hoover: And the Minepedia already has pages "Octopus", "Octopi" and "Squid" for it.
17:42:45  Anyhow, where else do you get dye from?
17:42:48  But the plural is "octopodes"!
17:43:04  Phantom_Hoover: http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13217&start=100#p251044
17:43:07  Crafting flowers or killing octopodes.
17:44:11  "Inflections:  Plural octopuses, octopi, (rare) octopodes"
17:44:15  You're a rare fellow.
17:45:52  what does that say about platypus?
17:46:27  "Inflections:  Plural platypuses, platypi, (rare) platypusses, (rare) platypodes."
17:46:31  Where that == OED.
17:46:46  fizzie, I do like the fact that the pretentious-but-not-actually-correct version is the accepted plural.
17:47:18  well, the relevant part is being pretentious, not being correct
17:47:20  eh, i'll keep my platypoda anyway
17:47:23  Phantom_Hoover: They don't list "octopussies" as a valid plural, however.
17:47:42  I'll keep my PLÖTSPLÄTS anyway.
17:48:00  fizzie: octopussies is the only accepted plural of octopussy
17:48:26  PLATYPODES, NO!
17:49:19  Speaking of which, beta 1.2 unsuprisingly breaks mcmap.
17:49:24  Gregor: Platypode, I choose you!
17:51:19  "I added a player list to the client as a gui hack. But then I realized it just listed players in range, not everyone." "So that's a revert. Next update!"
17:51:33  I wonder if in next update it's going to send other-player coordinates too, or just their names.
17:52:11 -!- elliott has joined.
17:53:09  the alternative launcher works perfectly
17:53:18  what alternative launcher
17:53:23  19:31:49  My dad accidentally threw out the melatonin
17:53:24  19:32:00  I was planning on sleeping tonight
17:53:25  yes. accidentally.
17:53:27  elliott, the one that asks about updating
17:53:32  ah.
17:53:44  elliott, since there was an update a few hours ago
17:53:55 * elliott creates .minecraft/launcher
17:54:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:55:18  Vorpal: I'm planning on making my Minecraft the most ridiculously CPU and GPU-intensive program ever.
17:55:22  Minecrysis.
17:55:56  hah
17:57:03  Vorpal: Specifically, I am going to use an HD texture pack (probably Aza's), run on far/fancy, have Better Light installed, and use that arbitrary-GLSL-shader module, with the modified Depth of Field shader (and possibly the Even Better Light one the author showed, if it's released and I can get them to merge; it basically did full lighting, including redstone torch lighing being red, with shaders; beautiful screenshot).
17:57:13  elliott, well new blocks so if you update you need to use the standard texture pack for now
17:57:17  or things will look weird
17:57:29  Sure. But it's the principle.
17:57:46  It'll look ridiculously good.
17:57:54  * One secret useful block
17:57:54  * One secret pretty block
17:58:00  Go away, Notch. We can see your textures.
17:58:24  elliott: Maybe you could use some sort of a custom vertex/geometry shader/mod that'd also smooth the block edges so that the terrain wouldn't be so blocky!
17:58:29  elliott: all that just to make it like a pre-1995 game?
17:58:41  cheater00: It... does not really look pre-1995 like that.
17:58:56  in what way does it look pre 1995 then?
17:59:03  Not ever?
17:59:16  "ever" is not a way
17:59:20  it's a time specifier :p
17:59:27  "Not in any way"
17:59:33  ^
17:59:44  Gregor wins the spelling bee prize!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:59:54  elliott, so going to use the alternative launcher and play on the server?
18:00:12  I doubt it, the server will probably go vanilla soon.
18:00:19  elliott, well until then
18:00:26  cheater00: OH BOY IM GONNA USE IT TOO BYE ALOT OF CANDY
18:00:29  depth of field example: http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110107at111.jpg/
18:00:31  with aza's texture pack
18:00:34  cheater00: pre-1995 eh?
18:00:49  elliott: i bet it could run on this: http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop
18:00:56  >_<
18:00:57  oh go away
18:01:12  :p
18:01:15  Vorpal: here's the really cool (and afaik unreleased) one, shader light: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/
18:01:19  looks amazing
18:01:31   depth of field example: http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110107at111.jpg/ <-- this reminds me of those clay-animation games somehow.
18:01:46  elliott: the polycount is the giveaway
18:01:47  elliott, it looks like it is made out of cardboard boxes and so on.
18:01:51  Vorpal: ha
18:01:54  elliott: there were DOF mods for unreal 1 engine
18:01:58  cheater00: who cares
18:02:01  it looks pretty
18:02:01  which was pre-1995!
18:02:05  just saying :p
18:02:09  games in 1995 did not look like that, in general.
18:02:21  unreal's lighting was very good
18:02:27  elliott, new MC things!
18:02:32  MORE TYPES OF TREE!
18:02:34  and it had dynamic lighting
18:02:35  elliott, I mean it really looks like someone made a miniature set and took photos in it. The other one is nice
18:02:37  The first Unreal game was released in 1998.
18:02:49  yeah the depth of field is a bit extreme, i'd tweak it a bit
18:02:49  yes, but the first tech demo was leaked in 94
18:02:51  Vorpal: btw, mipmapping, to stop the ugly warping when playing on far: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/
18:03:05  Vorpal: e.g. look at the stairs on far, look around, notice it warbling
18:03:08  Vorpal: have you seen those photos of real life that are minified? :D
18:03:10  elliott, isn't there anisotropic filtering or whatever to do that?
18:03:15  Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
18:03:21  they use like a really long exposure and a moving lens :D
18:03:28   Vorpal: btw, mipmapping, to stop the ugly warping when playing on far: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/ <-- that is the light pic
18:03:32  Vorpal: that'll give you the same problems as anti-aliasing
18:03:33  oops
18:03:36  Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
18:03:38  Even Descent 1 doesn't quite qualify "pre-1995", since it came out in 1995. (But it had some coloured lights, IIRC.)
18:03:38  see the screenshot there :P
18:03:58  tilt-shift
18:04:31  elliott, well sure. I doubt my CPU could handle it
18:04:34  my GPU maybe
18:04:40  Vorpal: err. it's likely to cause less load
18:04:47  Vorpal: all it does is use less pixels the further away the texture is
18:04:48  elliott, well mipmapping yes
18:04:52  elliott, I meant the other ones
18:04:54  ah.
18:05:25  elliott: causes it to use multitexturing though
18:05:27  and blending
18:05:33  which makes it again slower
18:05:43  using less pixels just lowers the necessary bandwidth
18:06:10  I have AGP 8x :P
18:06:17  i have EISA
18:06:19  elliott, also, there are now octopodes.
18:06:22  (well I doubt that will matter)
18:06:26  Phantom_Hoover: ...
18:06:37  Phantom_Hoover: So, um, what are the new tree types.
18:06:47  elliott, birch tree is one iirc
18:06:53  Knee-jerk "I don't like it" at this point.
18:07:00  The other is the Tree of Knowledge.
18:07:01  elliott, why is that
18:07:07  Birch and a single sighting of a conifer-shaped one in a snowy biome.
18:07:07  Dunno.
18:07:10  elliott, Phantom_Hoover said best update since halloween
18:07:11  Also, dyes.
18:07:16  "A bunch of new crafting recipes" Oh joy.
18:07:26  Vorpal, because it did something *other* than breaking everything.
18:07:40  Phantom_Hoover, who knows. Might have broken stuff.
18:07:49  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Bonemeal what
18:08:17  http://img689.imageshack.us/i/minecraftmip.png/
18:08:20  this actually looks cool
18:08:27  now if they added per pixel lighting to the whole thing
18:08:45  and volumetric shadows
18:08:46  cheater00: Better Light does ambient occlusion.
18:09:09  Phantom_Hoover: Some Minepedia file-uploader seems to think the trees are aspens. (Which sounds rather unlikely.)
18:09:26  elliott: cool
18:09:26  cheater00, nah, go for FPGA-based real-time raytracing!
18:09:37  Vorpal: speaking of fpgas, i am slowly learning
18:09:46  elliott, this is all actually interesting.
18:09:46  Vorpal: soon, i'll be simulating neurons in fpga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
18:09:54  cheater00, oh and?
18:10:05  lol. i doubt.
18:10:08  and then, i'll upload myself!
18:10:11  OK, so I need three buckets of milk and some wheat.
18:10:28  Phantom_Hoover, what is the cake good for?
18:10:34  For eating?
18:10:37  Phantom_Hoover, does it stack at least?
18:10:53  Cake is absolutely useless AFAIK, but I'm going to make some anyway.
18:10:53  Edible items don't tend to stack.
18:11:47  Phantom_Hoover: It does heal 1.5 hears "every use, and you can use it 6 times".
18:11:51  elliott, seems like paintings were fixed in SMP. So some good news.
18:11:53  According to Minepedia, anyway.
18:11:58  s/hears/hearts/
18:12:08  yeah
18:12:40  I wonder if I should try and put optimine into that big hodge-podge of mods I'm installing.
18:12:45  It might, you know, make this actually feasible.
18:13:05  optimine?
18:13:34  Exactly what it says on the tin.
18:13:40  SPAWNIN' NEXT TO CLAY OH YEAH
18:14:27  I think "octopodes" is correct and "octopi" is incorrect.
18:15:21  yeah
18:15:25  zzo38: octopusses
18:15:42  j-invariant: I don't think so.
18:15:50  Wait what.
18:15:57  Monster spawners work in daylight, right?
18:15:58  it's from greek
18:16:04  Octononions.
18:16:09 -!- Oklopol has joined.
18:16:11  two of them are an octopair, three are an octet, five are an quintopus, seven are a septopode
18:16:15  Yes?
18:16:20  octopodes if you're pretentious, octopi if you're pretentious and clueless, and octopusses if you can't be bothered
18:16:21  fizzie: But octonions is different.
18:16:24  Oklopuses.
18:16:39  it's a mishmash of greek and latin
18:16:56  and old english
18:16:58  "Octopuses" is the most common plural, they say.
18:17:00  oklopol
18:17:04  LOL
18:17:04 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
18:17:07  Do monster spawners require a certain area around them?
18:17:36  oklopods.
18:18:02  I could quote the OED entry in whole, since I still have the tab open: "The plural form octopodes reflects the Greek plural; compare octopod n. The more frequent plural form octopi arises from apprehension of the final -us of the word as the grammatical ending of Latin second declension nouns; this apprehension is also reflected in compounds in octop-: see e.g. octopean adj., octopic adj., octopine adj., etc."
18:19:16  GUYS. MONSTER SPAWNERS
18:19:23  they work in daylight don't they
18:19:43  octopi = 25.132741...
18:19:48  hahaha!
18:19:56  For the pluralization tables of Plain TeXnicard, it will make "octopuses" which the reference which I took the data from, says is correct, but it also says "octopodes" is correct. I selected the Anglicise plurals to make the rule lists simpler.
18:20:08  elliott, not sure.
18:20:21  They don't work above a certain light level, do they?
18:20:29  they dont
18:20:32  *'
18:20:51  Though placing torches around the spawner or otherwise lighting the area will prevent monsters from spawning, the only sure way to prevent a Monster Spawner block from spawning monsters is to destroy it.
18:20:56  In rare cases where the dungeon is located near the surface, the player can remove the ceiling of the dungeon and expose the Monster Spawner and surrounding area to direct sunlight, preventing monster spawns during the day [1].
18:20:57  great
18:21:00  ticking timebomb
18:21:03  i think i will destroy it
18:21:07  it's just skeletons
18:21:11  skeletons aren't very useful are the
18:21:12  y
18:21:20  Good source of bone.
18:21:25  And BONE MEALS.
18:21:29  The latest McMeal.
18:21:31  if you put stuff around it, probably it can't do much?
18:21:31  fuck that
18:21:35  oklopol: scared dammit scared
18:21:37  this is the first night
18:21:59   Meh meh meh I'm afraid of the walking dead oh woe is me durp durp
18:22:06  well just a few layers of dirt, takes just a couple seconds and you'll have your own monster spawner for later
18:22:17  :D
18:22:19  A-YUP
18:22:26  But hey, I have:
18:22:28  Clay
18:22:30  skeletons drop arrows
18:22:30  6 iron ingots (thanks chest)
18:22:32  String
18:22:34  Food of various sorts
18:22:34  of course
18:22:35  Saddles
18:22:39  And sulphur
18:22:46  So... woo, now fuck, it's gonna be nigth soon and I have no house
18:23:03  Phantom_Hoover: That birch tree is hideous.
18:23:23  elliott: by 6 iron ingots DO YOU MEAN 6 STACKS OR 6 BIG BOXES
18:23:29  I MEAN 6
18:23:45  lol i have like 10 boxes in my base.....................
18:23:48  you suck
18:24:01  also
18:24:04  by having played one night
18:24:13  do you mean having played one stack of nights or a big box of nights
18:24:27  :D
18:24:29  oklopol: Or bix box of night-blocks crafted out of 9 nights?
18:24:33  i mean this is the first day
18:24:38  ah
18:24:43  fizzie: hey what should i build my house out of, SAND? lololololol
18:25:09  elliott: Build it out of Lapis Lazuli, the "misterious Ore/Block added in Minecraft Beta 1.2 .The only known use is for make the Blue Dye"
18:25:16  elliott: you could craft some emos out of night blocks
18:25:17  (Punctuation as in the source.)
18:25:18  elliott: how would you be inside it?
18:25:19  Cool houses are built of pure obsidian.
18:25:25  and make them guard you
18:25:28  I just read "lapis lazuli" yesterday... Baader-Meinhof.
18:25:35  Gregor: The ICE HOUSE is the coolest house.
18:25:36  Gregor: Do you play MC, or do you just know things X-P
18:25:42  j-invariant: MAGIC
18:25:50  elliott: I'm talkin' REAL LIFE, bitch!
18:25:53  j-invariant: you can get under-beach caverns, touching one bit of the roof destroys it all :D
18:25:57  j-invariant: well, makes it all fall
18:26:11  w'w
18:26:22  wat
18:26:42  what? that was like the only reason to have finite height world
18:26:45  Hey
18:26:47  I am wondering
18:26:55  Did anyone ever do a computer in minecraft?
18:26:58  that sand can be realistic without the coder having a brain
18:27:01  Since it seems to have logical gates
18:27:11  Slereah: yes, even i know that
18:27:19  so what should i do with my 6 iron ingots
18:27:23  Got a link?
18:27:29  elliott : Bukkits
18:27:32  elliott: wait till you have more, iron blocks are sexy
18:27:45  Slereah: google minecraft cpu
18:27:51  oklopol: not like, armour? :P
18:27:55  Maybe the iron block house.
18:27:57  elliott: nope!
18:29:38  thx
18:29:57  elliott: So that DOF shader, does it "focus" on the distance the crosshair is on?
18:29:57  Armors wore off, elliott
18:30:03  But bukkits are forever
18:30:07  Or until you die in lava
18:30:17  Slereah: Or until you use the bukkit as furnace fuel.
18:30:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:30:19  fizzie: Yes.
18:30:24  Why would you do thaty
18:30:28  fizzie: The screenshot is from a modified version later in the thread.
18:30:30  When you have infinite wood
18:30:37  it's getting dark, and my house isn't even vaguely done :(
18:30:40  just the first layer
18:30:41  it's in the sea, but
18:30:43  i am going to die
18:30:48  and lose all my amazing first-day possessions
18:31:19  If it's just first day, it doesn't matter much
18:31:46  Slereah: I have a ton of clay, 6 iron ingots, a decent bit of wheat, bread, two saddles, 8 string, and wood.
18:31:59  That is a good first day
18:32:04  elliott, hello.
18:32:06  dungeon'
18:32:08  That is a good first day that makes me NOT WANT TO DIE
18:32:09  I'm lucky if I find coal
18:32:15  oklopol: yes, but I got the clay and wood from spawn
18:32:24 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:32:25  elliott, wait, why are you building in the sea?
18:32:36  He is Spongebob Squarepants
18:32:39  wanted to
18:32:41  fuck it
18:32:43  my first house will be a tower
18:33:45  time to craft all night
18:33:48  seriously though
18:33:53  should i make a pick, sword, armour, or what with my ingots
18:33:54  Also
18:33:56  mine
18:34:03  Slereah: on top of a tower?
18:34:08  No
18:34:11  Inside!
18:34:14  I made a tower
18:34:16  i built the tower.
18:34:18  out of clay.
18:34:19  it is 1x1.
18:34:20  It is actually
18:34:24  i cannot actually mine :P
18:34:30  tell me what to do with my ingots
18:34:30  That is not really a tower
18:34:31  Vorpal
18:34:40  Slereah: keeps me away  from creepers
18:34:41  i told you already
18:34:41  Well
18:34:45  do nothing
18:34:48  elliott, ?
18:34:50  hope they don't blow up my fucking clay :D
18:34:54  Vorpal: first night, i have 6 iron ingots
18:34:59  Vorpal: what should i do with them
18:35:05  Picks go away pretty quickly
18:35:08  44 wood
18:35:09  elliott, switch to peaceful
18:35:12  So usually stone is better for that
18:35:12  yeah pick isn't worth it
18:35:13  Vorpal: no.
18:35:21  Slereah: i have no stone tonight :D
18:35:23  elliott, whatever you feel is best then
18:35:26  Armor might help, but I ouldn't do it on the first day
18:35:33  elliott: Craft: iron HOE + iron SHOVEL.
18:35:36  elliott : Wood pick, mine some stone, make stone pick
18:35:38  The most important tools evar.
18:35:40  fizzie: USEFUL
18:35:45  elliott, probably sword then armor?
18:35:46  Slereah: CAN'T MINE STONE ON THE FIRST NIGHT
18:35:48  I'M ON TOP OF A TOWER
18:35:59  fizzie: shovel is much more useful than axe imo
18:36:04  sword is top priority, but is an iron sword worth it?
18:36:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:36:09  and axe uses much more
18:36:25  Vorpal: can't really do armour AND anything else
18:36:30  boots would leave me with only 2 iron!
18:36:31  elliott: Wait, no, no, wait: six, you say? You can make a minecart! (And then one shovel.)
18:36:35  elliott: yes, the enemies will be too afraid to come close
18:36:39  fizzie: OH MAN.
18:36:43  elliott : Wait for morning
18:36:51  Slereah: there will be lots of monsters below
18:36:56  I need to be equipped to fight them
18:37:01  a stone sword doesn't sound "equipped" to me
18:37:03  erm
18:37:04  not even stone
18:37:04  wood
18:37:08  Well, I guess sword then
18:37:10  Or armor
18:37:16  Or FLEE
18:37:21  as i said, i could only make one piece of armour
18:37:27  Slereah: What's the recipe for an iron flee?
18:37:27  also, hard to flee when i'm dismantling my house
18:37:41  Don't dismantle it
18:37:49  If it's one block tall, just walk
18:38:04  Slereah: It is not ...
18:38:06  You could also make 16 minecart tracks and make a rectangular loop, then repeatedly run it.
18:38:11  Slereah: It is about 40 blocks of clay tall.
18:38:18  That's a lot of clay
18:38:25  PRECISELY
18:38:27  Are you far from your spawn point?
18:38:42  Because, you could
18:38:46  Jump from it
18:38:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:38:50  Locate it because it is tall
18:38:55  And get your stuff back
18:39:00  I would jump into nice, relaxing, non-dying sea.
18:39:06  Also, I suppose I could.
18:39:26  It's not really a game for fighting monster, really
18:39:29  Nonetheless: what do I do with my 6 iron that will help me best on the first night? I'm leaning t'words sword at this point.
18:39:31  especially on the first night D:
18:39:34  Iron sword should kill off enemies pretty quickly.
18:39:41  True, but
18:39:42  Creepers
18:39:47  Creepers will fuck you up
18:39:51  Just whack 'em with the sword. Duh.
18:39:58  Slereah: Eh, if you have full armour and a good sword you can stay outside all night.
18:40:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:40:54  "void main() is not legal in C++ but is legal in C." Whoa.
18:41:05  Which prolly won't happen at night
18:41:09  I mean
18:41:11  First night
18:41:28  I'm lucky if I can find coal on the first night
18:42:23  Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: fizzie: Behold, the PERMA-LITE: http://i.imgur.com/Jghek.png
18:42:36  what's happening??
18:42:43  j-invariant: Bugs!
18:43:39  Hey, MC has added lapis lazuli.
18:43:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:44:07  It does essentially nothing, other than dying things blue.
18:44:31 -!- Oklopol has joined.
18:44:56  Yeah
18:44:59  So you can
18:45:06  Make a colorful fortress of doom
18:45:12  Delightful wallpaper
18:45:22  Oh, I also have cactus.
18:45:28  Phantom_Hoover: so now you can have your bluestone?  *ducks*
18:45:31  Cactus are useless, though
18:45:52  They can actually be useful in mob traps.
18:45:56   Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: fizzie: Behold, the PERMA-LITE: http://i.imgur.com/Jghek.png <-- what
18:46:03  Just accidentally made an iron pickaxe :P
18:46:25  Well, it will be useful if you encounter some redstone or diamond
18:46:28  Which you WON'T
18:46:36  Vorpal: Notch can't code.
18:46:55  Is that why everything is made of
18:46:57  one polygon
18:47:20  Hey, sandstone has been added!
18:47:34  I can make a house in the style of Edinburgh's New Town!
18:48:14  Pickaxe, sword, and axe. Guess I'm set for day.
18:48:18  Phantom_Hoover: Is it craftable from sand and stone?
18:48:32  No, just four sand.
18:48:41  oh no he will add lanterns further on
18:48:44  what sandstone do
18:49:04  Creeper circling my precious clay house.
18:49:06  Vorpal: Ha ha ha.
18:49:16  elliott, well I'm sure we can get a kit :P
18:49:29  Yeaaaaah, that doesn't help SSP.
18:49:40  "Lanterns are planned crafted objects which were originally planned to be introduced in the Halloween Update. This feature was delayed because of the lack of time and will be implemented in a future update."
18:49:41  elliott, true but I have large stocks there
18:49:46  It's easier than fucking music blocks, Notch.
18:50:02  elliott, less nice than those though
18:50:13  elliott, so what is the new useful block?
18:50:18  Music blocks? Do you bounce off of them?
18:50:22  erm, what is special about a lantern?
18:50:25  Gregor: You PLAY them!
18:50:27  Oklopol: torches will go out
18:50:29  couldn't he just copy paste the code from torches?
18:50:31  and need flintn'steel to relight
18:50:32  oh
18:50:32 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
18:50:33  right
18:50:34  yes
18:50:35  he could
18:50:36  but he's a mron
18:50:38  i mean a moorn
18:50:41  i mean a mrornr
18:50:43  obviously there is no reuse of any line of code
18:50:47  elliott: Mario is shaking his head in shame.
18:50:58  oklopol: he writes the 3d rendering code for each block individually!
18:50:58  but it should still be trivial to add lanterns...
18:51:21  yeah, then makes texture files by taking screenshots so that it looks like he's not a retard
18:51:54  oklopol: Yes, but y'see, maybe he was worried about there not being enough time to playtest it for balance problems.
18:53:01  :D
18:53:02  It *is* a pretty big change to the game dynamics.
18:53:03  'cuz he does that
18:53:04  all the time
18:53:13  I mean, mining becomes quite a bit harder.
18:53:51  and more funnnnn
18:53:52  ais is not here :(
18:54:34  Phantom_Hoover: Didn't he roll back the "non-monster-spawn light level depends on depth" thing real fast because of difficulty issues.
18:54:40  Yes.
18:54:48  And torches going out is that times ten.
18:54:58  It's a really stupid idea.
18:55:05  it's a great idea
18:55:13  It only makes sense as part of the Bluestone proposal, where you could power a torch indefinitely with a generator anyway.
18:55:21  Assuming you get enough bulk fuel, which shouldn't be too difficult.
18:55:28  It makes secure mines impossible until you can make a nether portal, which requires vast amounts of mining in the first place.
18:55:30  You can just throw coal in to keep everything you use going.
18:55:36  well obviously the game needs either bots or a huge amount of players
18:55:41  so you can use them as bots
18:56:03  oklopol: make smp bots, the protocol isn't that hard :)
18:56:30  i wanna make my bots in-game
18:57:03  Vorpal: please tell those guys at Umeå universitet to stop using their internet connection, i'm downloading ubuntu packages
18:57:11  elliott, ..?
18:57:17  Vorpal: they host my ubuntu mirror
18:57:22  elliott, yes and?
18:57:23  go tell them off for hogging the pipe
18:57:25  it's slower than usual
18:57:32  you're in sweden, shouldn't be hard to get there
18:57:55  elliott, you realise the distance to there from here is longer than from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland?
18:58:25  UK is tiny
18:58:27  Vorpal: you want me to go tell Phantom_Hoover off? i can do that, sure
18:58:28  in return
18:58:33  elliott, no
18:58:38  well
18:58:39  The distance from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland is pathetic :P
18:58:44  Gregor, indeed!
18:58:45  Vorpal: why not
18:58:50  Gregor: your face is pathetic
18:58:56  elliott, what do you think would happen
18:59:18   The distance from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland is pathetic :P ← and elliott is talking about north England to south Scotland.
18:59:26  Shut up.
18:59:38  Phantom_Hoover, :)
19:00:34  What is it, like 700 miles? Less?
19:00:34  `calc 700 miles in km
19:00:35  (I forget if that still works)
19:01:01  In my country, blah blah blah it's bigger is the point.
19:01:02  Gregor: Google Maps Labs has added a distance measurement tool now.
19:01:22  fizzie: Schweet
19:01:41  It can even measure the length of a polyline if you like.
19:01:44  Gregor: I realise you're compensating for your lack of size in other areas. It's okay.
19:02:05  (And report results in Ångströms or light-years.)
19:02:40  In my country, you can drive 1,000 miles and see no appreciable change in dialect, accent, religion or ethnicity!
19:02:40  Also, you can drive 2,000 miles to the same effect :P
19:02:42  fizzie, what about parsec?
19:02:56  Vorpal: That, too. And TeX points.
19:02:59  Gregor, not on the east coast I bet
19:03:04  elliott: Any lack of size there could only have been inherited from the UK, but at least we have our teeth :P
19:03:26  fizzie, how amusing
19:03:37  Vorpal: Less so on the east coast, but the east coast is still WAY more homogenous than anywhere in Europe.
19:03:49  Gregor: In my country, you can drive a million miles with no change. (Admittedly you need to be driving in a small circle.)
19:03:58  fizzie, :D
19:04:49  Oh yeah, well in my country you can drive a parsec with no change (in a rather large circle)
19:06:04  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Dispenser <-- oh they can fire arrows, nice
19:06:17  Well in my country you can drive infinity plus 999 miles!
19:06:49  in my country you can drive an uncountable infinity distance
19:07:18  not only in a circle. But also in a square with rounded corners!
19:07:28  What is that for.
19:07:42  Vorpal, OK, that is officially the best thing to happen to MC since sliced bread.
19:08:00  MC has sliced bread?
19:08:08  Phantom_Hoover, yeah mods have been able to do this for ages
19:08:28  Vorpal, yes, but still.
19:08:46  Also, did they do it in a non-hacky way?
19:09:01  Phantom_Hoover, well for server mods that would be hard
19:09:16  Phantom_Hoover, craftbook had an IC to do it
19:09:20  Phantom_Hoover, also an arrow barge one
19:09:23  which is cooler
19:09:28  (5 at once)
19:09:48  No output.
19:09:57  ...
19:09:59  what
19:10:07  oh that above
19:10:08   `calc 700 miles in km
19:10:19  HackEgo, not impressed.
19:11:42  I think I'm looking into Atomo again
19:12:31  `echo It's not slowness, it's unimplementedness :P
19:12:33  It's not slowness, it's unimplementedness :P
19:12:43  fizzie, working on making mcmap work with this new one?
19:13:06  `url bin/calc
19:13:07  http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/calc
19:13:21  Sgeo, what was that RNA thing you mentioned?
19:13:26  Vorpal: Not at the moment; do you have some local server you'd like to run it against?
19:14:06  Hold on, let me check
19:14:26  EteRNA\
19:14:31  fizzie, my local server runs hmod and movecraft, so not very
19:15:15  http://eterna.cmu.edu
19:15:22  Right. The protocol docs seemed updated already, but I'll probably patch mcmap when there are some uses for it.
19:15:24  fizzie, collecting flowers on ineiros's server atm
19:16:07  It'll be a backwards-incompatible change anyway; I don't really feel like supporting multiple protocol versions, since Notch doesn't bother anyway.
19:16:20  Are flowers a renewable resource? I guess not.
19:17:58  fizzie, not afaik
19:18:40  Phantom_Hoover, ^
19:19:03  Deewiant: Going to update the WooW flora room "reed" sign, now that they're sugar instead?
19:19:20  Might as well be quaint
19:19:59  fizzie, do they still grow next to water
19:20:04  if so it sounds like reed
19:20:19  I don't think the semantics have been changed.
19:22:28  "Like the real plant, sugar cane must be planted on a grass/dirt block immediately adjacent to water, --"
19:22:56  X-D
19:32:01  god damn it
19:32:06  I still haven't found my sugar cane
19:32:20  I came across some so I trimmed it and replanted then lost it :|
19:32:26  was that poetry
19:32:40  "god damn it
19:32:43  I still haven't found my sugar cane
19:32:50  I came across some so I trimmed it and replanted then lost it"
19:32:59  yep
19:33:01  "god damn it / I still haven't found my sugar cane", by J. Invariant.
19:33:07  :D
19:33:18  i found it pretty deep
19:33:25  j-invariant, hey, wait till you try to find some eggs.
19:33:26  imagine it being read in a serious voice by a 60-year-old poet
19:33:32  you forgot the face at the end
19:33:39  that is part of the poem
19:33:39  quintopia: too low-brow
19:33:52  Or, indeed, wheat.
19:41:52  elliott: needs a blues melody i think
19:43:39  god damn it i still haven't found nananeenernanun
19:43:57  my sugar can cane i came across some nananeenernanun
19:44:29  so i trimmed it and replanted nananeenernanun
19:44:44  then lost it colon pipe nananeenernanun
19:45:14  sometimes i feel, lord
19:45:17  like i been
19:45:25  tiiiiiiiied to the whippin post
19:45:32  shantih shantih shantih
19:46:04 * quintopia bows
19:49:45  ...
19:50:20  i was expecting some snapping...
19:50:33  "colon pipe"
19:50:41  well it surely _looked_ as if quintopia had snapped *ducks*
19:50:44  :D
19:51:13  I have a pipe in my colon
19:51:15  gregor: ce n'est pas une colon pipe
19:51:23  *ceci
19:51:32  yeah that
19:51:36  ceci nest p'as none colon pipe une
19:51:40  *p'as nest
19:51:41 * quintopia doesn't francais
19:51:44  *cesi
19:52:04  cesium is no colon pipe
19:52:55  seize my colon pipe
19:53:09  ...i think that may be illegal
19:53:20  :D
19:53:37  go go gadget chaotic neutral
19:53:46  Go go gadget colon pipe?
19:54:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | I'll suck up ALL your fleep, baby! Right through the colon pipe. | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
19:54:26  no not the gadget skates! whooooaoaoaOOOOOAAAA
19:55:03  Gregor: do we _really_ want to scare away the newbies before getting them addicted?
19:55:13  yus
19:55:13  yes
19:55:22  IF YOU SAY SO
19:55:25  oerjan: HEY, don't make me reintroduce your colon pipe.
19:55:31  i'm currently optimising my procedure, i think i can filter out the worthy ones even quicker than i did with the xkcd guys
19:55:39  basically i start by killing their family
19:55:41  and eating their children
19:55:44  and then i yell in their ear for 24 hours
19:55:54  oerjan: My piping is 2" PVC now.
19:55:55  those that then create seventy languages of oklopol-level pure beauty then go onto the next stage
19:55:57  which is secret
19:55:58  NO! NOT YELLING IN THE EAR!
19:56:06  that's just plain _cruel_
19:56:07  oerjan: YELLING INSULTS NO LESS
19:56:15  yeah they usually beg me to just like
19:56:18  kill their grandparents too
19:56:51  but not grandchildren
19:57:05  at least not until they release another album
19:57:37   oerjan: My piping is 2" PVC now. <-- play music on it
19:57:52  ... THAT IS SICK.
19:58:11 * elliott plays music on his colon pipe
19:58:11  it's Vorpal what do you expect
19:58:24  someone seize it before it explodes with music
19:58:27  oerjan, wait, I thought you would expect that from Gregor
19:58:39 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:59:11  Vorpal: i'm pretty sure we've discussed PVC instruments on this channel before
19:59:21  oerjan, indeed
19:59:39  OK, done with the colon pipe discussion then :P
19:59:40  oerjan, they are quite interesting
19:59:42  http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/
19:59:55  elliott, any colon pipe there?
19:59:57  I do want to make a PVC xylovibraglockenphone.
20:00:09  geez you are all obsessed with my colon pipe
20:00:22  elliott, :P
20:00:38  Gregor, what exactly is a xylovibraglockenphone
20:00:43  Gregor, any photo of one?
20:00:58  it's obvious
20:01:11  Vorpal: I'm referring of course to the family of instruments including the xylophone, vibraphone, marimba and glockenspiel.
20:01:13  Gregor, http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/ <-- link dead, goes to geocities
20:01:20  Gregor, you might want to update that link
20:01:21 -!- j-invariant has joined.
20:01:43  Hahahfail.
20:01:44  Gregor, also images on http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/baritonetrombute.php broken
20:01:44  it's a cross between and vibraphone a glockenspiel and a xylophone and a drumbone for good measure
20:01:52  Gregor, and that is your local stuff
20:02:00   http://codu.org/pics/displayimage.php?album=33&pos=3 <-- 404
20:02:02  Vorpal: That I'm aware of and haven't bothered to fix :P
20:02:15  Gregor, aww :/
20:02:19  Gregor, how does it look then?
20:02:26 * quintopia looks forward to the next blue man gregor concert
20:02:46  Vorpal: I didn't even put instructions on my PVC trombone there :P
20:03:04 * oerjan finds a reference to "ass pipe" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_Virgin_Islands
20:03:18  Gregor, pvc pan flute
20:03:27  Too easy.
20:03:32  Gregor, hm true
20:04:13  PVC saxophone? (I haven't been following the context.)
20:04:16  elliott, so how is the new minecraft version?
20:04:25  Vorpal: I haven't really played, but it seems stable enough.
20:04:31  fizzie: I'm not sure how to make a single reed, and valves are borderline impossible.
20:04:39  Trombaxophone, maybe.
20:04:55  elliott, downside is of course that you can't play on current server atm unless you use alternative launcher
20:05:37  bbl
20:12:19  "trombaxophone" has only one result on Google D-8
20:12:21  UNACCEPTABLE
20:16:02  *Ahahahah*.
20:16:16  Among other things, Sony submitted *the actual keys* in court documents.
20:16:32  ....
20:16:33  wtf?
20:16:35  srsly?
20:16:35  Meaning that the "circumvention device" they seek to prevent the distribution of is a matter of public record.
20:16:42  Seriously.
20:17:48  Sort of like those scenes in movies where somebody knows they're being watched by the good guys and says "Boy I sure hope they don't find the key under the mat that goes to the back window, since there are no sentries posted to the left of that window!"
20:18:40  That is the best thing ever.
20:19:58  Surely they didn't do something that barefacedly stupid.
20:20:10  pikhq: in that series of screenshots?
20:20:12  or where?
20:20:21  copumpkin: In that gigantic pile of screenshots.
20:20:42  Page... 247 of court document 4.
20:20:46  ah
20:21:26  Phantom_Hoover: Remember that the keys were already released because Sony doesn't know the meaning of "random".
20:22:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:22:06  pikhq: It was random, it just had a very small range.
20:22:14  Gregor: no
20:22:17  Namely, a single value.
20:22:27  copumpkin: HALLO MR I-DUNT-GET-JOKES
20:22:30  lol
20:22:43  Though even if it were random *with a known bias*, the keys would still be vulnerable.
20:22:44  pikhq, indeed, but there's failing to be cryptographically secure due to skimming the textbook and there's publishing them on a document you *know* is going to be public.
20:22:54  Where's the pile of screenshots?
20:22:55  (this was the issue with the whole Debian OpenSSL thing)
20:23:52  http://www.thesangreal.net/gaf/sony.zip Well, this zip has all the stuff submitted by SCEA so far.
20:24:03  The pile of screenshots is in 04.pdf
20:24:20  It's absurdly huge.
20:24:33  282 screenshots.
20:24:59  No, I mean the zip.
20:25:03  Yes.
20:25:34  Christ on a pogo stick, wheat takes ages to grow in MC.
20:25:50  Phantom_Hoover, it always done?
20:26:11  Phantom_Hoover: As opposed to real life, where you pretty much drop it in the ground, go get coffee, then make bread.
20:26:14  Vorpal, yes, but I never needed it soon.
20:26:25  Phantom_Hoover, it takes ages to grow in real life too. The issue is that trees grow unrealistically fast in mc.
20:26:29  so does wheat
20:26:31  Gregor, and where you can break solid stone with your bare hands.
20:26:34  you need months in real life
20:26:42  Phantom_Hoover, that is some nice karate!
20:27:02  Phantom_Hoover: You can if you're not some kind of PUSSY.
20:27:24  Phantom_Hoover: (And also it's sandstone)
20:27:32  Gregor, naw, they added that/
20:27:37  Gregor, what is sandstone?
20:27:39  It's different from normal stone.
20:27:51  Vorpal, ...a soft kind of stone?
20:27:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:28:05  Phantom_Hoover, I meant, chemically
20:28:12  Vorpal: It's a rock made of lightly-cemented sand.
20:28:12  Phantom_Hoover, I know what sandstone looks like
20:28:19  Chemically, it's a load of sand smushed together.
20:28:19  Gregor, cemented how?
20:28:24  Vorpal, smushing.
20:28:37  Phantom_Hoover, I'm not familiar with that jargon *googles it*
20:28:39  Gregor, even sandstone isn't that weak.
20:29:00  Trust me, I live in a city where the primary building material is sandstone.
20:29:20  Phantom_Hoover: Then if you can't smash through your buildings, then I guess you're just some kind of PUSSY.
20:29:41  If you could punch apart houses in less than a day, there wouldn't be a house standing.
20:30:00  wrecking balls in the next update?
20:30:09  Rabid house-punching squads are destroying New York! D-8
20:31:02  I like all the ads in the documents
20:31:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:31:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:31:44  Phantom_Hoover, what can't you smash even sandstone!?
20:31:48  You'd have thought they'd have gone over the keys with a marker pen or something.
20:32:23  Vorpal, can you‽
20:32:41  Phantom_Hoover, never tried. I'd assume so
20:32:52  X-D
20:33:05  I hope Vorpal goes and smashes Edinburgh now.
20:33:28  elliott, a bit too far to travel
20:33:52  "Insane Swedish man found punching houses, trees."
20:34:06  Phantom_Hoover, :D
20:34:12  Subtitle if it's published in the Evening News: "Believed to be tram contractor."
20:34:21  Phantom_Hoover, what?
20:34:27  I don't get that
20:35:00  Vorpal, the Evening News is the local rag, which views the council and the tram system which is being built in a similar light to that in which paedophiles are viewed by lesser tabloids.
20:35:21  Phantom_Hoover, haha
20:35:28  Phantom_Hoover, why do they hate the tram?
20:35:48  Because the council did it and it's not exactly been done with the greatest of competence.
20:35:54  Roadworks etc.
20:36:06  Phantom_Hoover, why do they hate the council?
20:36:13  I have no idea.
20:36:18  They just *do*.
20:36:50  http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Tram-talks-off-till-March.6689138.jp
20:36:56  Read comments for amusement/despair.
20:36:58  I would love to live in a city where trams are treated like paedophiles.
20:36:58  Because the council is the government.
20:37:00  Therefore evil.
20:37:04  It just sounds ... amazing.
20:37:10  "Trams: Is YOUR child next?"
20:37:27  @hoogle (a -> IO b) -> IO a -> IO b
20:37:28  Control.Exception bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:28  Control.OldException bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:28  Control.Exception bracketOnError :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:29  *picture of young child riding a tram, onlookers stare in horror*
20:37:45  *picture of young child riding a paedohpile, onlookers stare in horror*
20:37:47  *paedophile
20:38:04  PEDOPILE
20:38:06  Isn't that type signature just flip (>>=)??
20:38:12  s/??/?/
20:38:34  Gregor, if you spell paedophile without an 'a' you are obviously a paedo.
20:38:59  Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but at least I'm an AMERICAN (not some filthy Amrican)
20:39:57  elliott: Re optimine, intriguingly "The FasterRender mod by @Scaevolus is included in beta 1.2, please let us know if it helps! And send him your regards".
20:40:12  fizzie: Right. Isn't that the SSP-only one, though?
20:40:20  Ppperhaps.
20:40:20  Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's =<<.
20:40:21  elliott: (=<<) ?
20:40:23  But =<< is SO UGLY.
20:40:27  I already forgot what the different bits did.
20:41:13  http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/new_zodiac_sign_dates_dont_swi.html
20:41:43  I love the way that article is written as if the Earth's axis has suddenly swivelled 30° overnight and astronomers have just noticed.
20:42:22  And then the way that the astrologers try to justify it and they take it completely seriously.
20:42:29  http://people.cs.uu.nl/andres/lhs2tex/Guide2-1.16.pdf Oh wow, this is complicated.
20:43:07  hey j-invariant, have you used lhs2tex
20:43:12  say yes :P
20:44:42  I find it slightly revolting when the advice for students writing lab reports is to use Word.
20:46:02  Gleh.
20:46:29  87.5% of our students use LaTeX for their reports. (Sample size: N=8.)
20:46:29  SCEA has *also* filed a description of how to go *about* deriving the private keys.
20:46:48  Phantom_Hoover, hey they added charcoal!
20:46:52  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Charcoal
20:46:53  In essence, they themselves have made the entire thing a matter of public record.
20:46:57  Bravo!
20:47:00  Vorpal, I just noticed that.
20:47:01  Phantom_Hoover: the astrological signs start their division at the spring equinox (the actual modern one).  the fact that the divisions are named after >= 2000 year old constellation placements is just tradition.  this particular detail isn't really one of the arguments against astrology.
20:47:06  elliott, you might find this useful
20:47:13  oerjan, yes, I know.
20:47:31  Well. It's a fairly short description, but one that any knowledgable cryptographer would be able to work with.
20:47:51  "They didn't use random numbers in their ECDSA implementation." ← Sufficient!
20:48:19  Phantom_Hoover, elliott, from version history: "Spiders can climb up walls."
20:48:21  be scared
20:48:23  be VERY scared
20:48:40  I thought they'd always been able to do that.
20:48:50  Can they climb up 1x1 pillars?
20:48:54  Phantom_Hoover, no they could jump high however
20:48:56  Phantom_Hoover, no clue
20:49:11  But yes, that is a botherance.
20:49:30  Ooh, wood and stone tools got a boost.
20:49:43  Phantom_Hoover, they did?
20:49:51  Clearly this is just a lull before Notch brings out the big difficulty hikes.
20:54:11 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:54:16 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:59:16  Vorpal: Charcoal also obviously means light sources (well, until lantern-time) for your sustainability project. (Though I'm not sure how you get a furnace, since even though cobble is sort-of renewable, I'm not sure how you'd do a cobble factory without a bucket to move lava.)
20:59:55  Lava is non-renewable now.
21:00:18  That, too.
21:00:31  fizzie, I already have one from when lava was renewable from spawn
21:00:42  and now it is an artifact which can be used
21:00:50  or something
21:00:55  Well, but if you'd like to start from scratch somewhere elsewhere, then it's a problemo.
21:01:03  fizzie, indeed it is
21:02:14  Maybe you could manage to build a cobble factory around an existing lava fall (unless you'd count that despoiling nature, too), but still a bucket seems essential for moving water around.
21:02:33  fizzie, I seen natural cobble factories
21:02:37  hard to use though
21:02:40 -!- acetoline has joined.
21:04:12  SPIDERS UP WALLS WHAT WHY
21:04:13  WHYW
21:04:14  WYHWYH
21:04:14  HWHY
21:04:15  WHY
21:04:20  WHYWYHOIERYDRLTKJFGH,IOJKLD;SA'SC.F,GNMHLG;KJFD;SPOACLV,XCMVNBL,FGKTRPOEI45039ROKIO908I94586U859RTUYIR9TUJWHY
21:04:30  elliott, did they climb up 1x1 pillars?
21:05:26  Can they climb over fences
21:05:32  Oh, what a shame: the wiki "Crafting" page recipe images are actual screenshots (cropped any which way and sometimes stretched strangely and whatnot); I was somehow assuming they'd be some clever table-driven things, like Wikipedia's chessboards.
21:10:36  fizzie, ...that is how it works.
21:11:13  Well, some of them.
21:12:06  Right, I was sure that's how it worked.
21:12:16  The new "dye recipes" seem to be all more or less ugly screenshots.
21:13:09  go fix them?
21:13:39  night →
21:15:16  j-invariant: DO YOU WANT TO READ MY PROGRAM
21:15:23  what is it
21:15:30  j-invariant: the worst program
21:15:32  okay
21:16:10  useful examples of mutually recursive functions?
21:16:35  j-invariant: is there a shortage of those?
21:16:38  When you run it your cat dies.
21:17:05  :t scanl
21:17:06  forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a]
21:18:44  elliott: I cna't think of any
21:18:46  elliott: can you
21:18:51  j-invariant: even and odd, for instance!
21:18:53  j-invariant: :D
21:19:15  the only thing that cmoes to mind for me is EVAL/APPLY and some proofs, well they don't really count though
21:19:16  j-invariant: if you only have induction-recursion on naturals, and you can memoise them, it's even the fastest way!
21:19:24  eval/apply is pretty relevant
21:19:30  all interpreter-esque things are structured that way
21:19:31  The Hofstadter functions?
21:19:35  more or less
21:19:38  *sequences
21:20:00  The female and male ones, specifically.
21:22:37  j-invariant: here's my ugly program: http://sites.google.com/site/ehirdfiles/files/guessing-game.pdf
21:23:00  j-invariant: state machines work nicely as mutually recursive functions
21:23:01  ooh
21:23:02  i can simplify i
21:23:03  t
21:23:49  elliott: at least you use lhs2tex
21:24:02  j-invariant: that's the sole reason this program exists :P
21:24:09  :D
21:24:20  j-invariant: complaints so far: <=, =>, && look ugly, they're too big... also, it italicises EVERY DAMN NAME, which is just really freakin' annoying
21:24:27  it should, like, only use it for local variables
21:24:47  j-invariant: re: is there something like pastebin for pdfs, as i've just found out, "yes" pretty much
21:24:55  j-invariant: go to google sites, create a site, create a page, make it a file cabinet
21:24:55  elliott: google?
21:25:01  voila, instant file host
21:25:14  j-invariant: new version: http://sites.google.com/site/ehirdfiles/files/guessing-game.pdf
21:25:17  getGuess is less ugly now :P
21:25:22  j-invariant: oh, extra complaint about lhstotex: you can't do
21:25:24  do foo
21:25:25     bar
21:25:27  because it renders it as
21:25:29  do foo
21:25:29    bar
21:25:32  e.g.
21:25:40  foo = do blah
21:25:43           blah2
21:25:47  comes out as
21:25:49  foo = do blah
21:25:50    blah2
21:25:59  that's stupid
21:26:03  elliott: that's a bug
21:26:11  probabl
21:26:12  y
21:26:24  extra complaint: it doesn't put enough whitespace between two successive functions in a \begin{code} block
21:26:58  j-invariant: i wish there was a variant of literate programming that utilised hypertext better
21:27:07  j-invariant: like, i don't really care so much about having a coherent linear order
21:27:16  j-invariant: but i want to interleave code and documentation fully, and also have links
21:27:25  like, i could link to the whole chapter comprising, say, the parser of a language
21:27:35  and individual functions would link to the place where they are discussed inside that chapter
21:27:36  etc.
21:27:52  you could even do a whole OS as a single literate program, because there wouldn't be a strict linear order, it'd be hyperlinked
21:28:18  elliott: yeah that would be a big improvement
21:28:50  j-invariant: and then I could make @ one gigantic literate program with both x86-64 asm and @lang code :D
21:28:57  (@ is my platonic ideal dream OS)
21:29:04  (@lang is the language it's based on)
21:31:06  *Aaaaagh*.
21:31:21  pikhq does not approve of @/
21:31:21  i love ams euler, it goes so well with linux libertine
21:31:28  s|/||
21:31:29  Most of the BS-X games will only run for a certain number of boots before locking themselves out forever and ever.
21:31:43  Making it *even more impossible* to actually emulate the damned thing.
21:31:52  :D
21:31:55  elliott, including the poorly-batched square brackets?
21:32:06  Phantom_Hoover: Is there something wrong with Euler's []s?
21:32:20  Short a bunch of former Nintendo developers "misplacing" a bunch of ROMs on the Internet.
21:32:21  There's something wrong with Libertine's.
21:32:34  Phantom_Hoover: There is?
21:32:38  (which *has* happened for some of them.)
21:32:57  The closing one is noticeably narrower and longer than the opening one.
21:33:02  Phantom_Hoover: If you just mean "they're not flippings of each other", well, it's olde-style.
21:33:26 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:33:34  Yes, but the way it's done is sloppy-looking.
21:33:45  Who uses square brackets anyway.
21:35:23  To mark elisions?
21:35:31  To make nested brackets less confusing?
21:35:45  Phantom_Hoover: Loser.
21:35:57  I don't do it!
21:36:02  But some people do!
21:36:33  And whenever we have code snippets in the channel and they contain square brackets it also looks bad!
21:36:35  j-invariant: PLAY MY AMAZING GUESSING GAME :d
21:36:37  *:D
21:36:45  []
21:36:47  [][][][]
21:36:49  [[[]]]
21:37:30  j-invariant: here's the .hs file :P http://sprunge.us/hRLa
21:40:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:40:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
21:40:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:40:53  while () { /* valid K&R C */ }
21:42:35  j-invariant: do you have any opinions on serialisation of arbitrary GADT values
21:42:36  if not, get some
21:42:50  im not that interested in serliazation
21:43:08  j-invariant: but @ is based on serialisation!
21:43:17  in what way?
21:43:18  j-invariant: every value in the system is regularly and completely transparently serialised to disk
21:43:26  j-invariant: "RAM" is now a fancy word for "big disk cache"
21:43:33  = orthogonal persistence
21:43:36  (This is so awesome that words cannot express it.)
21:43:45  Phantom_Hoover: yes, you just keep saying how @ is awesome while i explain ti
21:43:46  EVERYTHING becomes vastly nicer.
21:43:48  i appreciate
21:43:50  the effort
21:43:50  *it
21:43:52  Oi!
21:44:16  what
21:44:35  Incidentally, LaTeX in @: cool as ?
21:44:47  Psht, I'm writing my _own_ format.
21:44:57  More semantic!
21:45:10  LaTeX is based on the CRIPPLED MOUND OF PRINT LAYOUT.
21:45:44  I thought LaTeX was one of the few things you liked a lot!
21:45:49  I do!
21:45:51  But it is not IDEAL.
21:46:22  How about: implement a nice, clean typesetting system, and implement LaTeX on top of it?
21:47:17  Phantom_Hoover: Impossible; my system will be a semantic documentation system, not a typesetting system.
21:47:40  The "LaTeX" part will be a program that takes some documentation and an optional object describing the nitty-gritty of formatting it, and producing an abstract typeset result.
21:47:46  By program I mean function.
21:50:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
21:50:55  What about when you want to write some mathematics?
21:51:30  Phantom_Hoover: That'll be part of the semantic format. The syntax will resemble LaTeX
21:51:32  *LaTeX.
21:51:47  Why not just have it BE LaTeX?
21:52:11  Or have a LaTeX to @type converter?
21:52:27  Phantom_Hoover: see /msg.
21:53:18  Secret typesetting conspirationism!
21:53:30  fizzie: Actually, Minecraft SMP.
21:53:54  Oh, well, that's far less intrigueish.
21:54:08  fizzie: And far more creepery.
21:56:49  fizzie: Got a spare server lying around?!
21:58:25  Phantom_Hoover: It can't BE LaTeX because LaTeX is implemented on top of TeX, a low-level, print-based, layout and formatting-centric, non-semantic, imperative language.
21:58:44  I was offered an old server by a family member, but I'm not up for paying money to my parents for the titanic electrical cost.
21:59:37  Phantom_Hoover: It's unlikely your connection is fast enough anyway.
21:59:51  Yep.
22:00:07  Ergo
22:00:16  fizzie: WIPE ZEM AND USE IT TO HOST MINECRAFT
22:04:50 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:18:55  Woo
22:19:01  I managed to stay awake all day
22:19:06  Reading stuff
22:19:12  I'm not sure it's quite performancey enough.
22:24:02  fizzie: RAM is the main thing.
22:25:25  fizzie: ALL YOUR OBJECTIONS WILL BE MET
22:26:41  It's something like a 1.5GHz Pentium M with maybe a gigabyte or two of memory. And a messy linux-vserver pseudo-virtualization thing.
22:27:36  fizzie: But, but we are blowing up TNT.
22:29:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:34:09 -!- Mesingw has joined.
22:34:24 -!- Mesingw has left (?).
22:37:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:38:17  Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you, tomorrow, you're only a day away
22:39:00  Sgeo, does the fact that you are singing love songs indicate events pertaining to Katie the AT?
22:39:04  Yes.
22:39:12  Phantom_Hoover: *Katie A.T. Female
22:39:24  I like how it's pronounced "Katie-atie".
22:40:47  Like an AT-AT from Star Wars.
22:41:20  I wouldn't be surprised if there is actually something called a KT-AT somewhere in the Star Wars EU.
22:41:31 -!- j-invariant has joined.
22:41:56  Sgeo, so basically, your girlfriend is part of the Imperial war machine.
22:42:11  I'm pretty sure that "I love you" referrs to "tomorrow" in that song, not to a person
22:42:12  Any questions?
22:42:21  Also, she's not my girlfriend
22:42:28  *object of lust?
22:43:01 -!- Tritonio has joined.
22:45:46  Doesn't matter, she's still part of the Imperial war machine.
22:45:50  Logic says so.
22:47:00  Phantom_Hoover: http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lere161DYc1qay7sto1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1295045258&Signature=cwhPuXXRZ/x2oU29OTpRyz2s044%3D
22:47:17  Awwwwwwww.
22:47:33  elliott: LNOL
22:47:34  lol
22:47:42  the smile at the end is hilarous
22:47:49  happy at last
22:48:24  Hey, logically you can make 8 coal from 1 coal now.
22:48:35  "logically"?
22:48:38  Given a supply of wood, which is far easier to secure than a supply of coal.
22:48:44  j-invariant, abuse of notation.
22:48:46  Phantom_Hoover: BANK RUN
22:48:56  Bank run?
22:49:05  Phantom_Hoover: There's an inefficiency in the market, EXPLOIT IT
22:49:12  Phantom_Hoover: Vastly inflate your coal supplies!
22:49:18  Phantom_Hoover: It's basically a wonky exchange rate.
22:49:26  "Given a supply of wood" you can make an indefinite amount of coal from 0 coal, can't you?
22:49:44  huh
22:49:50  logically??
22:49:55  j-invariant, wood now smelts into coal.
22:50:02  Logically here is a picture of mars http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA13755
22:50:25  It's charcoal, not real coal, isn't it? (With identical behaviour, but still.)
22:50:40  Phantom_Hoover: do I have to update minecraft? I have never done that
22:50:55  j-invariant, it updates on start if you've bought it.
22:51:12  Also, I did say that "logically" was an abuse of notation.
22:51:18  I'll try to stamp it out.
22:51:25  what does it mean!!
22:51:26  It updates even when you don't want it to, until you take pains to prevent it.
22:51:30  Wait, I was ignoring you for suspected Englishness.
22:52:45  j-invariant: it means MEANINGNESS
22:52:53  Ecologically-sound torches/
22:53:01  Apparently, bone meal makes crops grow instantly.
22:53:06  Phantom_Hoover: Wait a second.
22:53:14  Phantom_Hoover: 1 coal = infinite coal, modulo trees.
22:53:20  Phantom_Hoover: Coal is now a renewable resource.
22:53:20  Yes.
22:53:22  Yes.
22:53:24  Step 1: Mine 1 coal.
22:53:27  Step 2: Set up free farm.
22:53:29  Well, modulo cobble.
22:53:34  Step 3: Turn trees and coal into more trees and more coal.
22:53:43  Step 4: Forever
22:54:01   hurf durf i don't see why i should think when adding features
22:54:28  Phantom_Hoover: COMEDY: Notch claims the uselessness of gold is his OMG POLITICAL statement about gold's real-world usefulness. Coal is now renewable. Theory: Notch denies climate change.
22:54:40 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:54:41  What do you need the 1 coal for?
22:54:48  You don't.
22:55:58  Oh, indeed.
22:56:09  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFyY2mK8pxk
22:56:43  "If you use 'octopodes' you had better be able to give this spiel at a moment's notice, and in a British accent."
22:56:46  Done and done.
22:57:10  octopine
22:58:19  Conclusion: people who say "octopi" are fair game for being punched in the face when they act like smug grammar Nazis.
22:58:37  octopi? who says that
22:59:15  smug nazis
22:59:20  the same people who say virii
22:59:30  is it also virodes?
22:59:47  Virii is fair game.
22:59:51  It's Latin-derived.
23:00:06  cacti
23:00:08  Glargh, apparently not.
23:00:19  Goddamn declensions.
23:00:24  Or is it conjugations?
23:00:27  Instead of VIRII?
23:00:30  virodes :D
23:01:25 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:01:33  Vorpal is busy turning his entire chests of coal into more coal.
23:01:34  yes, from now on every word ending in -us has -odes as the plural
23:01:45  i agree
23:01:52  uh... are there many?
23:01:53  I hate Latin dictionaries which just assume you can work out the declensions off-the-cuff from the set of endings they give you.
23:01:55  meatodes
23:02:16  The issue with "VIRII" as a plural for "VIRUS" is that in Latin, "VIRUS" is an uncountable noun.
23:02:24  wikipedia says "The word is from the Latin virus referring to poison and other noxious substances, first used in English in 1392. The plural is viruses."
23:02:32  http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=virus&ending=
23:02:34  HELPFUL
23:02:50  Not according to that dictionary, pikhq.
23:03:01  So if you were to be *accurate* with your plurals, the plural of "virus" would be "virus".
23:03:11  At least with comparison to their entry for arma, which I *know* is an uncountable noun.
23:03:25  (source: Wiktionary. May be wrong.)
23:04:52  Phantom_Hoover: Ah. According to Wikipedia, *some* dictionaries treat it as a generic second-declension noun. However, this is a neologism.
23:04:55 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:05:40  hello
23:05:59  If you do so, the plural is "VĪRA".
23:06:00  btw, why all the talk of octopodes recently?
23:07:18  olsner, they were added to MC.
23:07:24  what!!
23:07:40  j-invariant, they drop black dye.
23:07:52  They're more sqoctopodes.
23:07:53  And yes, I'm damned well using all-caps for Latin.
23:08:06  And those little lines on the vowels!
23:08:20  Consistent orthography is too puny for pikhq.
23:08:27  aha, so it went something like "* implemented octopi" in the change log and then an explosion of ZOMG WRONG PLURAL FORM?
23:08:41  I should have used it for "VĪRĪĪ" and "VĪRUS", as well.
23:08:58  Sqoctopodes <3
23:09:02  Or just omitted it in general.
23:09:18  pikhq, do the little lines, or do it in caps.
23:09:22  Don't do both.
23:09:34  And if you're going to do it in caps, use the Roman letters.
23:09:52  "VIRVS" or "vīrus".
23:09:56  One or the other.
23:09:59  Phantom_Hoover: The first is wrong.
23:10:05  Erm.
23:10:06  No.
23:10:22  U for V in the middle of words is a Medievalism.
23:10:36  Is it a bad sign that I think of Latin words with the Roman pronunciations?
23:11:29  It's technically right to do so with caps, as that practice *does* predate the presence of case in common usage...
23:11:38  *However*, it's not exactly classical.
23:11:38  Phantom_Hoover: you probably think of english words with english pronunciations...
23:12:05  Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I was thinking of it as "U because it's in the middle of a word", not "U because it's the vowel".
23:12:31  Yes, but does it make me unbearably pretentious to say "waynee weedee weekee" rather than "veiny veedy veechy"?
23:13:02  Depends on context.
23:13:37  olsner: It's just "* a new water dwelling mob" in the change log, the plural discussion started because the unofficial MC wiki had pages "Octopus", "Squid" and "Octopi" already created.
23:14:13 -!- Tritonio has joined.
23:14:28  Anyways. KONSISTENT ORÞOGRAΦY EYE DISPIES!
23:14:29  Phantom_Hoover: ViciViciVeb
23:18:15 -!- Tritonio has quit (Client Quit).
23:18:27  elliott: UuikiUuikiUueb.
23:18:43  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv3Tt0fFJkU&feature=related
23:18:55  GET OUT OF MY HEAD YOU GODDAMN TUNE
23:19:02  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:21:04  so what should I be working on in the next four days
23:21:20  j-invariant: knowledge!
23:21:32  j-invariant: scapegoat!
23:21:37  The ONLY blame-based version control system!
23:21:49  haha
23:21:49  features such as: probably slower than even darcs 1
23:21:53  j-invariant: it's not a joke :D
23:22:00  j-invariant, the death of all people with second toes longer than their big ones!
23:22:05 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
23:22:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:22:32  it'll also probably use quite a bit of disk...
23:24:46  Every record of each revision contains the entire repository history up to that point.
23:25:06  of course, every revision needs to know what it started with
23:25:09  Unary-encoded for convenience.
23:25:24  pikhq: that lacks FEATURES
23:25:24  and unary is just the easiest way to encode anything :P
23:26:17  I'm reading Bertrand Russel "Introduction to the Problems of Philosophy"
23:26:18  btw, cutting your hair makes everywhere colder - the effect can be significant if there was a lot of it
23:26:24  Russell
23:26:36  the whole thing is.. stupid
23:26:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:26:47  what the hell is he talking about?
23:27:07  the problems of philosophy?
23:27:18  elliott: stuff like "tables don't exist even though I can touch them"
23:27:35  i don't believe in tables
23:27:52  I really have not got the slightest clue what he's trying to get at
23:28:33  is my gpu meant to be 73 C while idling?
23:28:48  does anyoen actually care about philosophy
23:28:48  why
23:28:54  elliott: No.
23:29:00  pikhq: well ... it is :D
23:29:00  elliott: But I suggest attaching a griddle to it.
23:29:06  pikhq: it's in a lapotp
23:29:08  *laptop
23:29:08  Fry you some bacon!
23:29:13  note that the laptop feels cool
23:29:19  ofc the thermal reading might just be bS
23:29:20  *BS
23:29:46  At 73°C, that shouldn't be cool to the touch.
23:29:51  :(
23:29:53  That should be melting your leg-flesh.
23:30:04  pikhq: i think the reading is taken from _inside_ the core
23:30:52  maybe I should write a tutorial about something that nobody cares about
23:31:06  elliott: Melting your leg-flesh!
23:31:17  j-invariant: make a tutorial about how to add one to an integer
23:31:32  pikhq: apparently it's now 84 C
23:32:08  elliott: this is trivial
23:32:08  hmm, feynman is cool
23:32:18  I like feynman
23:32:24  not if you make it hard
23:32:38  Bertrand Russell said "The goal of scienci is to find uniformities of the universe"
23:33:04  but Feynman said "I don't care if I get a simple equation for everything, I just want to understand nature. If there is no equation okay, that's what we find instead"
23:33:22  I don't get much out of Bertrand
23:33:35  Everything he says is not even wrong
23:34:45  pikhq: can i explain scapegoat to you, it's not fair just me and ais understanding it
23:34:47  copumpkin: or you
23:34:48  olsner: or you
23:34:49  j-invariant: or you
23:34:51  OR ANYONE
23:34:54  elliott: YOUR LEG-FLESH IS IN PAIN, I'M SURE.
23:34:58  elliott: you already did, it's hilarious
23:35:06  j-invariant: i explained it with one line??
23:35:08  elliott: not now, I'm going to bed an hour ago
23:35:10  or have i mentioned it before
23:35:33  足肉が痛んでるよ！
23:36:06  oh, there's a movie about feynman and throat singing
23:36:44  pikhq: ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED IN SCAPEGOAT
23:38:47  j-invariant: did i actually explain tit to you??
23:38:56  yes
23:39:00  j-invariant: when
23:39:04  just now
23:39:23  j-invariant: that was not an explanation :)
23:39:48  j-invariant: so you don't want to know? :
23:39:49  :(
23:39:53  *it
23:41:10  pah
23:41:14  i'll bother copumpkin more then
23:41:17  SUSPICIOUS LACK OF REPLY
23:41:33  when did copumpkin end up in here anyway?
23:41:48  when PH got lambdabot back
23:41:53  all the DAMNED HASKELLERS invaded
23:41:56  and copumpkin kinda stuck
23:42:12  oh, we have a lambdabot now
23:42:14  @quote Plugin
23:42:15  Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list
23:42:23  Phantom_Hoover: http://twitter.com/pigworker/status/25356492341252096 GET THERE NOW
23:43:00  Desperately Seeking Conor
23:43:11  he's in edinburgh dammit
23:43:14  he can get there
23:43:25  NO EXCUSE NOT TO
23:43:49  elliott: it just says he's teaching.. it's not an invitation :P
23:43:59  j-invariant: but it COULD be!
23:44:09  ;yeah .. if you misinterpret it
23:44:10  if all else fails, stand at the window with your face pressed to the glass, listening intently
23:44:13  perhaps with a glass
23:45:05  j-invariant: you can talk to him on IRC
23:45:50  I'm sure he loves all the stupid questions we throw at him in #epigram
23:46:13  copumpkin: you fool! if you talk to him on IRC, you'll interrupt his Epigram coding!
23:46:18  why do you think 2 is taking so damn long??
23:46:24  lol
23:47:02  copumpkin: On the OTHER hand, asking me questions about scapegoat slows nothing down and everyone should do it.
23:47:16  hm
23:47:18  new version of uAgda
23:47:38 * quintopia steals all of vorpal's entropy
23:47:45  is there any neat way to diff two directories?
23:47:56  there's a programm called diff :P
23:48:00  *program
23:48:09  it can do taht?!
23:48:15  sure, diff -r
23:48:18  xD
23:48:21  OH MY GOD IT CAN DIFF DIRECTORIES
23:48:27  THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE
23:48:27  grat!!
23:48:35  absolutely grat
23:48:50  hm
23:48:57  I'm diffing aginst my hacked copy
23:49:07  you can also get kdiff or another graphical diffing tool, but most of them suck way more than diff and less combined
23:49:20  olsner: so since you're not sleeping i must tell you about scapegoat
23:49:29  (and colordiff will make that suck even less)
23:49:53  oh, you'll just drive me away so I'm forced to sleep
23:50:09  >:(
23:50:15  j-invariant: SCAPEGOAT
23:50:15  this update doesn't fix the bug I mentioned
23:50:22  elliott: uAGDA
23:50:24  j-invariant: are you sure they actually saw the post about it
23:50:29  j-invariant: you should have stored your uagda changes in scapegoa
23:50:29  t
23:50:35  elliott, what do you think of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality?
23:50:38  elliott: it sounds interesting, which is what makes it so dangerous
23:50:44  then I would be blamed for breaking it?
23:51:00  Sgeo: it's amusing, i haven't read it for ages
23:51:05  two new uAgda example codes
23:51:06  (hmm, shaving... I can't imagine some people actually do that every single day)
23:51:12  j-invariant: that isn't how scapegoat works dammit
23:51:18 * Sgeo loves it so far
23:51:34  elliott: I have this beautiful vision of scapegoat in ym head, don't ruin it!
23:51:49  elliott: how does it work?
23:51:52  j-invariant: the reality is even better, because it's FRACTAL!! (not really but)
23:51:57  Sgeo: the problem is that it never updates!
23:51:59  j-invariant: well!
23:52:19  j-invariant: basically, everything is a Change, capital C
23:52:19  and uh
23:52:20  wait
23:52:24  maybe i can get olsner to listen if i try hard enough
23:52:29  and copumpkin, i don't really wanna do this three times
23:52:31  which is, of course,
23:52:33  inevitable
23:52:44  -- let's use parametricity in a useful way: prove that any
23:52:44  -- function of type (X : *) -> X -> X is the identity.
23:53:04  save the log, then paste it one line at a time at the right interval to make it seem like you're doing it in person all over
23:53:15  j-invariant: f _ _ _ = undefined
23:53:20  Mathnerd314: is not a function.
23:53:21  Mathnerd314: uAgda
23:53:23  @free a -> a
23:53:23  Extra stuff at end of line
23:53:27  @them a -> a
23:53:28  you are welcome
23:53:32  argh what's the theroems for free command
23:53:33  *theorem
23:53:34  @themk
23:53:35    : parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
23:53:35  *theorems
23:53:36  @them
23:53:36  you are welcome
23:53:37 * Mathnerd314 hates termination checkers
23:53:37  @them
23:53:37  you are welcome
23:53:41  @help
23:53:42  help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands
23:53:43  Mathnerd314: lol.
23:53:48  Mathnerd314: it's not a "termination checker"
23:53:53  it's just a sub-TC language
23:53:58  not a TC language + some checker
23:54:01  that's a stupid way to think about it
23:54:11  "sub-TC" is silly
23:54:13  also, good luck doing proofs with _|_
23:54:19  it's not strongly normalizing /because/ it's sub-TC
23:54:29  it's sub-TC because it's SN!
23:54:34  well, non-TC
23:54:38  you know whaddimean
23:54:48  tell me about scapegoat!
23:54:50  @list
23:54:51  http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
23:54:59  j-invariant: convince olsner to stay up long enough to listen and i WILL
23:55:09  @free a -> a
23:55:09  Extra stuff at end of line
23:55:14  @free f :: a -> a
23:55:14  g . f = f . g
23:55:16  elliott: help me program in uAgda
23:55:21  worst theorem for free
23:55:25  j-invariant: i can only do one of those two things :D
23:55:37  elliott: hmm, maybe, how long will this take? :)
23:55:48  olsner: like 15 minutes max?
23:55:57  http://pastebin.com/JmXRenaa
23:55:59  CHeck this out
23:56:08  cool, that's about as long as is left of this half-played episode I just found
23:56:25  olsner: do I have to duke it out to the death with that episode?
23:56:30  also, "max"
23:56:33  j-invariant: neat
23:56:37  yes!
23:56:49  (I find paused mplayer windows all over, then I have to watch them to the end after unpausing)
23:57:02  elliott: why is that a bad free theorem?
23:57:18  elliott: no, I expect you to coexist peacefully
23:57:29  olsner: i refuse to talk to anyone without FULL ATTENTION! scapegoat is IMPORTANT1
23:57:31  *IMPORTANT!
23:57:34  copumpkin: it could give "f = id" :P
23:58:04  that's not how it works :P
23:58:07  copumpkin: you want to hear about scapegoat, I'm sure
23:58:12  I'm at work
23:58:21  copumpkin: ALL THE MORE REASON
23:58:27  wait, where are you?
23:58:36  i have this conception that ou're in the uk
23:58:38  *you're
23:58:52  he could be canadian
23:59:03  elliott: see my paste
23:59:10  j-invariant: i did
23:59:17  elliott: be more excited!!
23:59:21  j-invariant: i was!
23:59:28  elliott: nah, US
23:59:29  elliott: the ! thing is like "gimme parametricity"
23:59:47  copumpkin: oh ... so you're lame
23:59:54  why?
23:59:58  because, uh
23:59:59  because

2011-01-14:

00:00:02  why?
00:00:05  BECAUSE I SAID SO
00:00:16  hey, I'm from england originally :P
00:00:23  sure, sure
00:00:25  not sure what  f! A< (Eq A< x<) x< (\_ p -> p)  does
00:00:28  giving them the secrets of our bad teeth
00:00:29  bastard
00:00:31  born in london!
00:00:35  looking at the type of f! doesn't really help
00:02:19  olsner: have you seen the light yet
00:02:36  he's silent because he's regretful
00:02:37  no, it's still winter here
00:02:48  olsner: have you seen the scapeglight
00:03:08  that's not a word I know, so it's hard for me to determine that
00:03:09  elliott: you're a bad englishman by american standards, anyway
00:03:15  copumpkin: o rly?
00:03:19  olsner: the light of scapegoat
00:03:31  copumpkin: I bet he eats crumpets and drinks tea, isn't that enough?
00:03:45  elliott: you're not supposed to be enthusiastic and noisy. You're supposed to be posh and nonchalant
00:03:50  I eat crumpets and drink tea
00:03:57  I also like marmite and potato waffles
00:04:00  copumpkin: i totally am, when i don't talk about scapegoat
00:04:05  which is, incidentally, the best thing?
00:04:13  wtf is scapegoat
00:04:16  i'm aiming to be as annoying as possible until everyone agrees that talking about scapegoat would be preferable
00:04:18  (that's a rhetorical quesiton, I don't want to know)
00:04:21  copumpkin: THE BEST VERSION CONTROL SYSTEM EVER
00:04:27  NOOOOOOOO
00:04:30  elliott: I already did
00:04:43  j-invariant: yeah but i'm trying to get as many people involved as possible first so we can have a big scapegoat party
00:04:49  augur: HEY YOU
00:04:50  elliott: yeah you are losing me though
00:04:53  augur: ask me about scapegoat
00:04:54  nooga: also you
00:05:03  j-invariant: i'm on the verge of giving up and just telling you
00:06:08  j-invariant: ok fine i will
00:06:11  hey elliott
00:06:12  sup
00:06:15  j-invariant: do you know how git and darcs work
00:06:15  whats scapegoat
00:06:20  augur: THE BEST VERSION CONTROL SYSTEM EVER
00:06:24  now if you'd just been talking about scapegoat instead of talking about talking about scapegoat...
00:06:30  invented by ais, refined (BRILLIANTLY) by me!!!!124823954365706432-2==
00:06:36  what i'm saying is i'm a genius? anyway ask me about it
00:06:47  i don't want to monologue like oklopol
00:07:02  elliott: how does scapegoat store its data?
00:07:03  sounds boring
00:07:04  bye
00:07:41  augur:  Mathnerd314: that's not the interesting part
00:07:51  yeah but thats not new, elliott
00:07:55  you already  elliott: then wth is?
00:09:16  Mathnerd314: all the rest!
00:09:59  elliott: please enumerate the components of "all the rest"
00:10:24  Mathnerd314: ALL of the rest!
00:11:38  elliott: for each individual element of "the rest", please print a textual description of it
00:11:45  Mathnerd314: set is not countable
00:12:58  elliott: use the axiom of choice
00:13:15  elliott: btw time's up
00:13:28  olsner: damn you
00:13:42  Mathnerd314: i don't accept extensional choice :)
00:13:46  axiom of choice doesn't exist
00:13:54  (trolling)
00:15:24  elliott: then we live in different universes and anything you say will be uninteresting
00:15:58  Mathnerd314: seriously?
00:16:14  Mathnerd314: so you think everything, say, intuitionists say is inherently uninteresting?
00:17:00  elliott: study normalization proofs with me
00:17:19  j-invariant: no :D
00:17:44  elliott: well, uninteresting past the point where you accept other axoms.
00:17:47  *axioms
00:17:53  elliott: why not :/
00:18:01  Mathnerd314: you have "math" in your name, you are into this stuff
00:18:02  Mathnerd314: what does that mean?
00:18:04  j-invariant: sounds painful
00:18:07  j-invariant: and no he isn't
00:18:09  note also the "314"
00:18:11  LOL
00:18:13  good point
00:18:20  wait now I feel mean :(
00:18:31  I like pi
00:19:09  j-invariant: my nick was carefully constructed for maximum confusion
00:20:15  it is only slightly descriptive.
00:20:30  Mathnerd314: at least you chopped it off whre the next digit is <= 5
00:20:44  well < 5
00:20:47  Mathnerd314: I have when people write stuff like 3.141
00:20:50  hate*
00:21:35  pi is 3.1
00:22:44  elliott: pi is off by a factor of two from the rest of math.
00:22:58  i too have read "pi is wrong" and the tau manifesto.
00:23:22  perfectly agreeable articles that serve the secondary purpose of giving people who don't really know any math something to have opinions about
00:23:39  exactyl
00:24:09 -!- polymorf has joined.
00:24:20  i'm really sad that my map structure doesn't work
00:24:22  although maybe i can augment it
00:24:34  hahahaha wait, it does work, sorta... if you can enumerate the values of any type
00:24:51 -!- polymorf has left (?).
00:25:04  @hoogle [(a,a)] -> [a]
00:25:05  Data.Ix range :: Ix a => (a, a) -> [a]
00:25:05  System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a]
00:25:05  Prelude snd :: (a, b) -> b
00:25:14 * pikhq laughs
00:25:22  :t concatMap (\(a,b) -> [a,b])
00:25:24  forall t. [(t, t)] -> [t]
00:25:30  @pl (\(a,b)->[a,b])
00:25:31  uncurry ((. return) . (:))
00:25:31  pikhq: ?
00:25:37  SCEA's lawyers have apparently shown up in #ps3dev on EFnet.
00:25:38  My dad's yelling at me to buy shoes
00:25:41  :t zip
00:25:42  forall a b. [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:25:46  The day before I go to the mall with someone
00:25:49 * Sgeo mindboggles
00:25:53  @pl (\xs ys -> concatMap (\(a,b) -> [a,b]) (zip xs ys))
00:25:54  ((uncurry ((. return) . (:)) =<<) .) . zip
00:25:56  :D
00:26:01  Not saying anything. Just a guy with the right host mask.
00:26:04  @hoogle [a] -> [a] -> [a]
00:26:05  Prelude (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
00:26:05  Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
00:26:05  Data.List deleteFirstsBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
00:26:06  pikhq: :D
00:26:06  Sgeo: tell him not to yell or just ignore him
00:26:18  j-invariant, oh, oops. He's not literally yelling.
00:26:29  elliott: http://pastie.org/1458314 Here's logs.
00:26:54  > [-1,-2..]
00:26:55    [-1,-2,-3,-4,-5,-6,-7,-8,-9,-10,-11,-12,-13,-14,-15,-16,-17,-18,-19,-20,-21...
00:27:02  > [-1..]
00:27:03    [-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,...
00:27:37   kdutine: hi!
00:27:39  OH MAN IT'S RMS
00:27:48  Almost certainly not *the* RMS.
00:28:11  OF COURSE IT IS
00:28:24  j-invariant: quick, gimme some haskell to enumerate all strings
00:28:26  wait
00:28:28  i can just enumerate chars
00:28:30  elliott: I already did
00:28:30  and then [a]
00:28:32  j-invariant: you did?
00:31:17  instance (Elems a) => Elems [a] where
00:31:17    elems = concatMap ofLength [0..]
00:31:17      where ofLength 0 = []
00:31:17            ofLength n =
00:31:17              concatMap (\xs -> concatMap (\x -> xs++[x]) elems) (ofLength (n-1))
00:31:20  j-invariant: was it less ugly than that?
00:31:33  yes :P
00:31:37  j-invariant: show :P
00:31:43  I told you yesterday
00:31:50  HINT: concatMap is (>>=)
00:31:52  you did? o_O
00:31:57  oh right
00:32:03 * elliott tries to find t :D
00:32:04  *it
00:32:10 -!- Tritonio has joined.
00:32:17  well it might not have been yesterday
00:32:22  but it was in the past
00:32:24  hmm grepping >>= on the logs actually gives nothing, how strange
00:32:41  definitely not before the 8th unless i'm missing something, wasn't it in haskell?
00:32:55  *#haskell
00:33:17  flip replicateM "fobar" =<< [1..]
00:33:20  > flip replicateM "fobar" =<< [1..]
00:33:22    ["f","o","b","a","r","ff","fo","fb","fa","fr","of","oo","ob","oa","or","bf"...
00:34:17  ah thanks :)
00:34:58  class Elems a where elems :: [a]
00:34:58  instance Elems Bool where elems = [False, True]
00:34:58  instance Elems Integer where elems = interleave [0..] [-1,-2..]
00:34:58  instance (Bounded a) => Elems a where elems = [minBound..maxBound]
00:34:58  instance (Elems a) => Elems [a] where elems = flip replicateM elems =<< [0..]
00:35:23  hehe this is like exaustive quickcheck
00:35:27  haha
00:35:34  j-invariant: guess how this helps me implement toList
00:35:43  :S
00:35:49  you're actually going to /USE/ this stuff
00:35:49  :t maybe
00:35:51  forall b a. b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
00:35:56  j-invariant: no, this is in a toy :D
00:36:03  even in a toy...
00:36:30  toList :: (Elems k) => PM k v -> [(k,v)]
00:36:31  toList m = concatMap (\k -> maybe [] (k,) (m k)) elems
00:36:32  j-invariant: BEHOLD
00:36:43  yes indeed
00:36:45  type PM k v = k -> Maybe v
00:36:52  elliott: have you got multitouch to work?
00:36:55  yes
00:36:58  hao?
00:37:02  O_o
00:37:02  installing things
00:37:03  i want too
00:37:08  j-invariant: best ever?
00:37:09  which thingsssss
00:37:11  that gives an open list?
00:37:12  URL
00:37:17  like [1,2,3,4,
00:37:27 * cheater- [explosion] elliott 
00:37:28  cheater-: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir3-2/Meerkat
00:37:29  j-invariant: yep
00:37:34  j-invariant: but it's GOOD ENOUGH :D
00:37:36  useful X)
00:37:36  ok
00:37:43  j-invariant: well hey, got a better idea?
00:37:48  j-invariant: I could just keep the [(k,v)] along with it
00:37:52  but then the function would just be an optimistaion
00:37:54  *optimisation
00:37:56  and I HATE optimisations!
00:38:13  elliott: it's hnot possible unless you do something ugly like carry around an upper bound
00:38:19  j-invariant: ew
00:38:32  j-invariant: inserting would be hilariously slow :D
00:38:32  elliott: that's how polynomials are doen :(
00:38:34  I hate it
00:38:38  unless i had a fast goedelNumber thing
00:38:44  j-invariant: huh
00:39:06  undecidable instances FUCK YEAHHHHHHH
00:39:31 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:40:20  j-invariant: but hey
00:40:31  *Main> toList Main.empty :: [(Bool,Integer)]
00:40:31  []
00:40:33  just use finite keys :D
00:40:44 * elliott does "toList Main.empty :: [(Int,Integer)]"
00:40:46  should terminate eventually
00:41:22  wtf
00:41:29  *Main> toList (insert 3 42 Main.empty) :: [(Int,Integer)]
00:41:29    C-c C-cInterrupted.
00:41:35  j-invariant: is concatMap not lazy or something?
00:41:42  oh
00:41:43  lol
00:41:51  j-invariant: "elems :: [Int]" --> all negatives first
00:42:36  elliott: teach me haskell :D
00:42:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:42:39  no
00:42:42  pls
00:42:44 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:43:00  i'll have to have ais teach me all of haskell then..
00:43:20  he'll be preoccupied and won't be able to write any more papers that you can illegally download..
00:43:41 * cheater00 terrorizes elliott a little bit
00:43:52  cheater00: i don't think ais will.
00:44:02  i'm sure he's friendly enough
00:44:15  j-invariant: can i see how you did the upper bound thing?
00:44:50  j-invariant: hey i just realised, you can look up any element certain types of infinite maps in finite time with my impl :D
00:44:51  e.g.
00:44:54  (\k -> Just k)
00:44:57  is the mapping i -> i
00:45:50  elliott: I never actually wrote it but it would be  type PM k v = (k,k -> Maybe v) -- with the condition that for k' > k, f k' = Nothing
00:46:11  j-invariant: hmm does String have Ord? wait of course
00:46:22  j-invariant: you still have to enumerate every string below that one though :-P
00:46:23  elliott: everything has Ord!
00:46:36  a < b if a is enumerated first
00:46:39  j-invariant: the idea is that with a perfect lazy specialiser, this should be a very fast implementation
00:46:50  this will never be efficient :P
00:46:55  j-invariant: because (f key) for common key will automatically get specialised
00:47:02  which will involve the impl inserting key into a hash table for f
00:47:11  mapping it to a constant value
00:47:15  i.e. it turns into a hash table lookup
00:48:40  j-invariant: but enumerating is a problem :/
00:49:18  http://polymathematics.typepad.com/polymath/2006/06/no_im_sorry_it_.html?cid=18295323#comment-6a00d8341bfda053ef00d83492d19d53ef troll :D
00:49:31  wtf that link doesn't work
00:49:37  weird
00:50:23  I don't understand why people discuss that 0.999.. thing so much
00:50:29  why do people care at all? It's so lame
00:50:34  Through proofs, yes, you have "proven" that .9 repeating equals 1 and also through certain definitions.
00:50:35  But in the realm of logic and another definition you are wrong. .9 repeating is not an integer by the definition of an integer, and 1 most certainly is an integer. Mathematically, algebraicly...whatever, they have the same value, but that doesn't mean they are the same number.
00:50:35  I'm getting more out of "hard" mathematics and more into the paradoxical realm. Have you ever heard of Zeno's paradoxes? I think that's the most relevant counter-argument to this topic. Your "infinity" argument works against you in this respect. While you can never come up with a value that you can represent mathematically on paper to add to .999... to equal one or to come up with an average of the two
00:50:36  , that doesn't mean that it doesn't conceptually exist. "Infinity" is just as intangible as whatever that missing value is.
00:50:38  but every time it comes up people discuss it for hours
00:50:58  discuss
00:51:05  more like idiots are idiots and other people yell at them
00:53:24  what, jsmath is lagging my browser
00:56:54  j-invariant: so how goes the dependent cas :P
00:57:04  I'm not making one
00:58:02  j-invariant: but i thought that's what you were doing :(
00:59:23  j-invariant: or did you give up?
01:00:50 -!- myndzi has joined.
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01:01:55 -!- myndzi has joined.
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01:05:52 -!- myndzi has quit (Client Quit).
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01:16:26  Gregor: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41047777
01:16:28  ...
01:16:30  xD
01:16:34  that was a random link from reddit
01:16:35  stupid clipboard
01:16:38  Gregor: http://xkcdinosaur.blogspot.com/
01:16:42  Gregor: You have been one-upped.
01:18:19  huh
01:19:03  huh?
01:22:50  elliott: :D
01:24:06  Dear EVERY FUCKING FLASH VIDEO PLAYER EVER: stop requiring buffers of INCREASINGLY LARGE SIZE.
01:26:04  In fact: every buffering scheme for video from the Internet ever: YOU SUCK.
01:26:41  Buffer enough that, if the current average download speed continues, you will get to the end of the video without ever once stopping.
01:28:02  plus a bit
01:28:39  Sometimes, YouTube will claim an amount is buffered, and playback is before that point, yet it still stops
01:31:47 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:31:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
01:31:50 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:33:37  Also, every fucking flash video player ever: HAND ME A URL TO THE ACTUAL VIDEO FILE. FLASH SUCKS.
01:34:45  lol
01:35:39  ->
01:35:41 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:39:25  pikhq: Handing you a URL to the video file would be an extremely poor way to prevent you from learning the URL to the video file.
01:41:41  Gregor: Why yes, yes it would.
01:42:10  Gregor: Of course, as preventing me from learning the URL to the video file is, I do believe, a "dick move", that is irrelevant.
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02:25:07  pikhq: even if it's a flv?
02:25:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:26:07  quintopia: ... So?
02:26:15  quintopia: .flv is just a video container format.
02:26:26  mplayer demuxes it just fine.
02:26:31  ah
02:43:33  Heh... Reminds me of once figuring out URL for datastream for flash video and then just downloading it...
02:45:08  (It was a video about IPv4 depletion).
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03:43:11  " why do people care at all? It's so lame" <<< maybe it's something where people think they are allowed to have an opinion in mathematics, and people love having opinions
03:43:53  people never seem to debate whether 0.3 recurring is 1/3
03:44:45  well that's equivalent, people always prove an equivalence proof with 0.999... vs 1 first, as a lemma
03:46:49  it's funny because what i see as the difference between S^Z and R is really that 0.9999.... is *defined* to be 1, by taking a certain equivalence relation between elements of S^Z
03:47:18  of course, R has operations and shit, but that's just because after this quotienting, those start making sense
03:48:47  well, of course you can always define R that way, i guess i can't exactly put into words what exactly is funny here
03:55:31  I'm somewhat confused about the functional nature of Haskell when it comes to IO. I have an entire program written in Haskell. But the moment I want to stop inputting the numbers directly in the program - and use command line arguments I need put everything in a do section and use IOStrings - right?
03:56:17  you typically keep your "business logic" out of IO
03:56:28  haskell kind of stops being functional when it comes to IO... :P
03:56:33  (but only a little bit!)
03:56:34  not really
03:57:42  copumpkin, yes - but lets say I had some business logic "add these two numbers to together and return the result"  I can't pass that function any numbers I got from input
03:57:53  sure you can
03:58:00  how?
03:58:02  *Oh wow*.
03:58:18  say you have add :: Int -> Int -> Int
03:58:33  kk
03:58:37  So. That person-from-the-SCEA-lawfirm who signed onto the #ps3dev room?
03:58:38  do x <- readLn; y <- readLn; print (add x y)
03:58:49  *He used his real name*.
03:58:54  pikhq: smart of him
03:58:57  what was it?
03:59:04  I quit #ps3dev
03:59:10  it was depressing
03:59:19  "kdutine" was his nick; "Kip Dutine" is his name.
04:00:06  pikhq, you sure it wasn't a parody ?
04:00:08  copumpkin: Shame that it's like 4 or 5 intelligent people and hundreds of complete morons going "LAWL PIRACY".
04:00:17  variable: The host mask was from the actual lawfirm.
04:00:39  pikhq, I call Poe! <----- joke
04:01:05  WHAT THE HELL python library for wikipedia
04:01:12  all "edit times" are 0 :-
04:01:33  But seriously... Those people who want a backup manager working on 3.55? Get off your ass and write it yourself if you care that much. If you can't be bothered, well, shaddup about it!
04:02:07  pikhq: damn right
04:03:01  Though I *would* like to see a region-free PS1 and PS2 loader one of these days... I'm not exactly pestering the people who are trying to figure out how shit works about it!
04:05:58  i read that as religion-free PS1 and PS2 loader
04:06:09  and i didn't get it
04:07:05  oklopol, ha
04:09:10  pikhq: you should join the fun!
04:09:36  all the cool kids are getting sued, so should you!
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04:42:57  moerning oerjan
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07:50:53  wow, ice's expansion pressure is huge
07:51:44  shaswot: the channel knows, I do not
07:52:48  What is it the channel knows? (Why does that sound like a silly riddle?)
07:55:43  the channel knows all, sees all
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08:04:31  pikhq: water has ridiculous expansion pressure when it freezes
08:04:58  do you know how much pressure is required to melt water at 251 K?
08:05:19  2040 atm
08:05:26  we should harness this somehow
08:05:48  is 2040 atm a lot?
08:06:37  1 atm is atmospheric pressure
08:06:41  20000 meters of water if i recall correctly?
08:06:44  (hence atmosphere)
08:06:52  i know that
08:06:55  doesn't tell me anything
08:07:06  that water thing tells me something
08:07:10  if it's true
08:07:52  uhm
08:08:26  more
08:08:41  okay, i recalled 10 meters of water is one atmosphere
08:09:17  actually, it may be less
08:09:25  due to the increasing force of gravity at depths
08:09:30  simple linear calculations won't account for that
08:09:40  (also the slight compressibility of water)
08:09:52  erm 20km matters for that?
08:09:57  gravity
08:09:59  20km is roughly correct though
08:10:54  well anyway i don't know any physics, was just wondering if 2040 was actually a lot in some sense
08:11:26  and that sure sounds like a lot
08:11:52  hmm, actually based on the movies i've seen about space stuff, the atmosphere basically keeps us together
08:11:58  so i guess it's not that little
08:12:05  20km affects acceleration due to gravity by somewhere in the vicinity of 1%
08:12:25  which isn't much, but if you're doing the calculus, it matters
08:12:28  in which direction?
08:12:32  down
08:12:40  but I'm approximating anyways
08:12:41  alright, makes sense
08:12:45  yeah sure
08:12:45  (this is assumed from sea level)
08:13:12  or, err, actually average radius
08:13:19  oklopol: "Normal high pressure gas cylinders or bottles will hold from 200 to 400 atmosphere (unit)s." (According to the omniscipedia.)
08:13:47  APNIC pool: 39 212 032
08:13:53  :(
08:13:58  that's a depressing number
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08:14:33  So, when you're thirsty and it's -22 degrees Celsius out there, you should try something else than squeezing a block of ice to get some water to drink?
08:16:02  How low was it supposed to go, anyway?
08:18:24 -!- shaswot has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
08:18:31  The esimated number at next allocation (triggering X-day): 32M-37M.
08:19:02 -!- shaswot has joined.
08:21:56  Seemingly someone in the US allocated a /10...
08:22:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
08:23:48  Now that kind of allocation from APNIC could be pretty much instant X-day...
08:28:28  So about 2M-7M left...
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10:12:21  * quintopia steals all of vorpal's entropy <-- nasty
10:12:30 * Vorpal steals it back
10:12:48  YOU CANNOT DO THAT WITHOUT APPLYING WORK
10:15:05  oerjan, a friend gave me some for the purpose of this.
10:15:12  O KAY
10:16:30  time to fetch clog logs again. Should add a daily cron entry calling the downloading script
10:16:53  currently it happens rather erratically
10:22:03  the japanese class is sneaky, i just realized all the frequent messages from the teacher are now in japanese, and i have no idea when that happened
10:22:33  hah
10:23:09  oklopol, then I guess that means you are getting the hang of the language
10:23:25  (except for a couple of translations in some messages, and complete translations in certain cases, maybe this was the first one without those)
10:40:56  bbl
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10:54:50  pon
10:55:52  'pon my honour
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12:39:30  does the minecraft world wrap around?
12:39:37  ilke a donus
12:43:28  I'm not sure that that's known
12:43:34  It's certainly never been seen
12:43:57  Should be determinable based on the source
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12:53:51  Sgeo: I don't know if I went all the way around or just in a circle
12:54:06  Sgeo: so nobody knows where it tends?
12:54:14  How many RL years were you travelling for?
12:54:23  also what do you mean by "source"
12:55:10  Oh, right, MC's closed-sourceish
12:58:22  I wish you could change your spawn point
12:59:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
12:59:54  On some servers you can use the /spawn command to do that; in single-player, I'm not so sure.
13:01:27  You could in creative.
13:01:39  You definitely can by editing the save file, but that's kludgy.
13:02:02  Not /spawn, /setspawn or something.
13:04:39  According to Wikipedia, "the largest possible world size to date reaching the equivalent of nearly eight times the surface area of the Earth before running into technical limitations", but the citation attached refers to a pretty old blog post.
13:06:31  Protocol-wise sometimes it sends absolute position numbers given as signed 32-bit ints that indicate 1/32ths of a block; that would allow for a 2^27 x 2^27 block square.
13:08:00  wow thats insane
13:08:08  I thought it would juts be quite a small world
13:08:18  That would be quite a lot more than "eight times the surface area of the Earth", so perhaps there are other limitations.
13:08:59  Wikipedia says Earth has a surface area of 510,072,000 km^2; a 2^27 metre square has about 35 times that.
13:10:30  On our server the furthest place anyone's traveled has been about 140 kilometres away from the spawn, and that was enough to basically crash it, so I'm not sure how feasible an Earth-sized world is with the current architecture.
13:10:39  It will at least take a lot of disk space.
13:10:40  hey
13:10:46  i should totally break that record manually
13:10:54  the further you walk the more world it generates?
13:11:08  yeah, but doesn't it drop the stuff you didn't change?
13:11:16  answer to j, question to f
13:11:49  No, it just unloads those blocks on disk.
13:11:53  As far as I know.
13:12:05  I don't think it ever shrinks the world.
13:12:38  I'm not entirely certain about that, though.
13:13:20  ineiros' file listings would probably answer that; if there's an unbroken path of chunks to the furthest point, then it probably doesn't.
13:13:44  can you hack your way in and check?
13:13:54  or break into his house
13:14:37  I could maybe just ask.
13:14:51  oh right
13:14:56  the third option
13:15:07  honestly didn't occur to me
13:16:39  next on the list was marrying him an infinite amount of times, and always getting half those files in the divorce
13:16:45  lol
13:17:00  What.
13:17:14  what?
13:17:32  oklopol: Constantly walking into one direction for 8 hours should (if I calculated right) give you the coveted "been furthest away" award (well, assuming you wouldn't have to go around mountains or anything). As well as create about ten thousand files (around a hundred megabytes, maybe) on his disk.
13:17:48  :O
13:17:58  could it handle that?
13:18:04  8 hours isn't exactly a long walk
13:18:17  Based on someone's forum-post saying walking speed is "about 5 blocks/second".
13:18:45  well, 80 hours isn't a long walk, as a project
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13:19:13  !perl print 8*60*60*5
13:19:14  144000
13:19:22  Yes, that'd be about 144 kilometres.
13:19:28  well. maybe it's slightly over medium, since it's not *that* much fun without far
13:19:39  I'm not sure the "5 blocks/s" is in fact accurate.
13:19:44  that's weird, since you can't walk that much in 8 hours
13:19:55  That's 18 km/h, it sounds a bit fast for a walk.
13:20:09  oh right 5 blocks a second is not 5km/h
13:20:24  i forgot hours are stupid
13:20:31  i don't use them much
13:21:03  Minecart max speed is 8 blocks/s, according to Minepedia, but I'm not sure how to compare. It does feel a lot faster than walking.
13:21:08  I saw a travel speed table somewhere.
13:21:40  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_lmMmYAyow
13:21:42  XD
13:21:47  4.27 m/s, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Transportation
13:21:52  well note that i would probably not do it by running straight ahead, but strolling away, looking at the world
13:22:04  Quite possibly the funniest thing Fox News has ever done.
13:22:13  'sup?
13:22:33  Well, assuming 2 blocks/sec of actual progress, that'd be 20 hours.
13:22:45  what the helll LOL
13:23:18  I'm still laughing.
13:24:35  "and that simple contact could be all that pedophile needs to fulfill his fantasies for the day"
13:25:14  oklopol, what MC things are you doing?
13:25:35  erm, currently i'm just making a base, but i feel kinda nomadish after that short talk
13:25:39  Phantom_Hoover: He wanted to be the guy who's been furthest away from spawn, so I was computerizing how much walking would it take to get to (100k,100k).
13:25:51  Lots.
13:25:53  a creeper blew up my pyramid :(
13:25:55  not really
13:26:00  according to fizzie
13:26:18  Phantom_Hoover: It's not that much: 8 hours if you could proceed with maximum walking speed to one direction; 20 hours might be realistic, even.
13:26:44  fizzie: though you might die half way
13:26:48  nope
13:26:52  j-invariant: You can't die on that server.
13:26:55  And then I will just //goto one metre further.
13:26:56  oh
13:27:11  Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you'd be a FILTHY CHEATER.
13:27:17  Phantom_Hoover: that wouldn't really change anything
13:27:42  going farthest is the inspiration, not an actual goal
13:28:03  oklopol: You could try walking 100 km to bring visibility for some charity, I hear that's very popular.
13:28:11  :D
13:28:23  walking 100km irl isn't much of a project either
13:28:38  we did this rather spontaneous 80km walk one weekend
13:28:43  Yes, but on-server there'd be a large audience.
13:28:49  surely
13:28:58  Walk 4Mm.
13:29:22  You can then say to everyone you walked the distance through the world!
13:30:18  That's not quite the whole world.
13:30:41  Wait, 4000Mm is the radius, isn't it?
13:30:50  It's not that either, I don't think.
13:31:00  4000 megameters?
13:31:08  oh you corrected
13:31:09  yourself
13:31:16  Because some protocol messages use absolute-integer coordinates that denote 1/32ths of a block; that'd be 2^27 metres.
13:31:31  also i might not have that much time for mc now since i just realized courses + other stuff actually take quite a lot of time, so dunno
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13:31:42  fizzie, I did mean IRL.
13:31:52  Phantom_Hoover: Ohhh, right.
13:32:05  there is no "distance through the world" in mc
13:32:23  that would be nicer than the current fixed height tho
13:32:43  Phantom_Hoover: IRL the Earth's circumference is 40 Mm; 40k kilometres.
13:33:19  Mean radius is ~6.5Mm.
13:33:30  *6.3
13:33:39  what do you mean radius
13:33:40  *6.4
13:33:47  Dammit, rounding.
13:34:01  oklopol, the radius? Of the planet?
13:34:08  oklopol: It's the distance from the center to the surface, approximately.
13:34:12  no that was a pun that made no sense
13:34:42  anyway earth's is a mean radius
13:34:52  Ahh.
13:34:58  I completely failed to catch that.
13:35:40  well it doesn't have two parsings
13:35:50  i couldn't think of one that does
13:35:52  `addquote  no that was a pun that made no sense
13:36:08  "Earth's is a mean radius" works.
13:36:31  sure
13:36:52  but with that mean-ing of mean, everything technically works
13:37:00  erm, everything with mean radius that is
13:37:24  Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS).
13:37:25  267)  no that was a pun that made no sense
13:38:17  ineiros, hey, can we have an unmodified SMP server while we wait for hMod to update?
13:38:33  And a pony!
13:38:49 * Sgeo is in a weird mood today
13:39:06  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ
13:39:25  Then again, hMod shouldn't take too long: the github repo has a "NON WORKING beta 1.2 release, DEVELOPERS ONLY" already.
13:39:34  Oh, whoops, I misread that as "NOW WORKING".
13:40:01  Oh well, it's just one more line.
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14:05:44 * cheater00 puts oklopol in a simulation of conway's game of DEATH!!#$!$#
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14:17:33  huh so I have an egg
14:17:43  need to find that sugar cane
14:18:37  and flour I guess
14:18:46  Is it really worth it to make cake?
14:18:54  idk
14:20:50  It's a principle thing, I think: it's cake, after all.
14:20:52  And a new recipe.
14:20:56  why does it say peter griffin :|
14:20:59  All new recipes should be crafted at least once.
14:21:23  Sgeo, yes, actually.
14:21:37  It regenerates a total of 9 hearts and you can stagger it.
14:21:42  "Minecraft Beta 1.2_01 (less bugs, more framerates)"
14:21:46  Well, that didn't take long.
14:21:49  So have a single cake in your shelter, and use it when you get hurt.
14:22:28  "* Added a temporary fix to get rid of chunk visibility errors
14:22:28  The last one is interesting.. The problem with chunk visibility errors was that for some reason the “dirty” flag on chunks and the list of “dirty chunks” got out of synch. There wasn’t time to try to do a proper fix today, so I just made the client check a couple of dirty chunks per frame to make sure they’re in the list.
14:22:28  So until we fix it proper, you might get invisible chunks, but they will fix themselves after a second or two, usually way before you even get close to them."
14:22:38  How very shotgun-codingy.
14:23:12  O, you can't put cake in the hand to use it?
14:23:55  Sgeo, no.
14:24:14  Because you can use it 6 times, which doesn't work with MC's eating system.
14:24:23  That is also why food items don't stack.
14:24:37  I still have the smegging Serenity theme stuck in my head...
14:24:44  I haven't even seen the film!
14:25:00  I haven't even watched Firefly! It's just latched onto my brain and it won't let go!
14:25:03  How is block resistence n/a?
14:25:12  It's a block, isn't it?
14:26:36  The cake?
14:26:51  It can't be picked up, so...
14:26:55  Also, it could be an entity.
14:27:28  Now that charcoal exists, is there a point to regular coal?
14:27:42 <__xrott__> ...............
14:27:45  Also, you know that block resistance measures the damage from TNT?
14:27:52  Phantom_Hoover, vaguely
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14:28:06  Sgeo, yes, i.e. that it's a lot less resource-intensive to mine coal than to smelt lots of wood.
14:28:32  You'll bump into coal when mining normally anyway.
14:29:05  Hey, turns out that you can make bonemeal into any other dye.
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14:31:49  "Bone meal is used to make white wool by crafting one Wool block with bone meal above it."
14:31:50  Uhhh
14:33:29  "Sheep can also have their wool dyed by directly using dye (right clicking) on them. When a dyed Sheep is attacked it will drop coloured wool in the same way normal sheep drop their wool. This can be useful because you can obtain multiple coloured wool blocks from a single Sheep, instead of getting just one block from the crafting process."
14:33:34  Now *that*'s amusing.
14:33:56  I'm feel like painting all on-server sheep pink.
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14:37:23  fizzie, is the server updated?
14:37:45  great, it isn't :(
14:37:46  err
14:37:47  :)
14:37:48  I meant
14:37:50  No, no.
14:37:51 * Vorpal plays
14:37:55  Just for future reference.
14:40:20  wait do you need a pick to mine coal??
14:40:30  like if you break the block without you just get nothing?
14:41:44  Yes.
14:42:08  But a wooden pick is good enough.
14:42:33  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXorGZcsnHo
14:42:42  Mt. Hoover *needs* one of these.
14:43:05  fizzie: I ust wasted two blocks of coal ;_;
14:43:43  Phantom_Hoover: I tried making a farm but if you run too far away the animals disappear
14:43:49  Phantom_Hoover: like even if they are completely trapped
14:44:06  Oh, they must despawn if you venture too far.
14:44:55  Phantom_Hoover: Nice sound.
14:45:38  wow tta's like an arrow cannon why does that work?
14:46:50  Dispenser + clock circuit, isn't that quite simple.
14:48:13  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw&feature=player_embedded
14:48:16  My god.
14:48:26  I don't understand it
14:48:29  Phantom_Hoover, yes?
14:48:30  is this thing built into the game
14:48:34  fizzie, the trick is getting a very high-speed oscillator.
14:48:38  or is that some kind of unintended consequence
14:48:40  j-invariant, just got added.
14:48:42  Yesterday.
14:49:02  Dispensers eject their contents when they receive a redstone charge.
14:49:24  I can't say I understand redstone oscillators either, but they're well-known things, you can find designs in the web.
14:50:13  Phantom_Hoover: The moment when that video actually scrolls up was very impressive.
14:50:24  Extremely.
14:51:53  I would assume some sort of a trick has been used to fill all those guns with eggs, though.
14:55:29  Yes, natureally.
14:55:32  *naturally
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15:04:18 * Sgeo is leaving soon
15:04:33  To wait 5 hours to see someone for 1.5 hours :/
15:05:40  Why not just go in 4 hours?
15:06:10  By waiting, I mean most of the time will be commutting
15:06:12  (I can't think of a suitable Katie A.T. comment here. Submissions are welcomed.)
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15:08:52  Phantom_Hoover, so how many bugs did the new version add?
15:08:54  Something about commuting and the AT-AT walker, maybe.
15:09:14  Sgeo, will you be travelling on a KT-AT, then?
15:09:18  Vorpal, none I noticed.
15:09:21  BA-DUM CHING
15:09:29  OTOH, I didn't do any particularly intensive playing.
15:09:57  Phantom_Hoover, well there is a _01 version
15:10:20  Yeah, but I didn't see any bugs.
15:10:26  Haven't been on SMP as well, though.
15:10:47  oh and they added the bug fixes from optimine it seems
15:10:48  hahah
15:11:09  Phantom_Hoover: The top speed of AT-AT is 60 km/h, maybe you could work that in too somehow.
15:11:13 -!- elliott has joined.
15:11:51  oh and gold tools got a boost, but not when it comes to durability
15:12:35  elliott, I have decided that as soon as the server updates Mt. Hoover must get a repeating double-barrel arrow machine gun.
15:12:42  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXorGZcsnHo
15:12:51  Phantom_Hoover: I agree, but only if we also get creepers.
15:13:00  Yesyesyes.
15:13:09  I hope we don't get creepers
15:13:22  Perhaps we could do that SMP airbase thing while we wait for hMod to update.
15:13:28  00:12:51  "While the copyright of the play Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J. M. Barrie has expired in the United Kingdom, it was granted a special exception under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (Schedule 6)[33] that requires royalties to be paid for performances within the UK, so long as Great Ormond Street Hospital (to whom Barrie gave the rights) continues to exist."
15:13:36  That is ridiculous.
15:13:39  If Vorpal agrees not to whine about dying.
15:13:47  Vorpal: You have diamond armour and probably more than one diamond sword.
15:13:58  elliott, I do not have diamond armour
15:14:00  As well as an almost-inaccessible-for-mobs, completely-protected castle.
15:14:02  You have literally nothing to fear.
15:14:06  Vorpal: Well, you can trivially get it.
15:14:14  true
15:14:16  Assuming you nabbed diamond from spawn when you could which I find likely.
15:14:17  elliott: Surely that's not recognized in any other country?
15:14:22  Errr
15:14:24  fizzie: That
15:14:29  elliott, but we'll obviously set creepers off everywhere on top of Mt. Vorpal.
15:14:33  Gregor: Presumably.
15:14:52  Gregor: Well, it's only royalties for performances in the UK, not "proper" copyright-as-in-actually-control-the-rights thing. But still.
15:14:55  Gregor: Still, ugh -- can you imagine trying to overturn that? "But what about the children!" (Great Ormond Street is a children's hospital.)
15:15:04  Phantom_Hoover, I read that as that they are turned off
15:15:22  elliott: WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!
15:15:41  I think children should be banned just so people can't pull that crap.
15:15:49  elliott: So what if a different children's hospital wants to put on a performance of it :P
15:16:06  Gregor: THEY HAVE TO TURN OFF LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS TO RAISE MONEY TO GIVE TO THE EVIL, CORPORATE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL.
15:16:15  WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!?!?!?!
15:16:38  Eh, they'll live so long as their medicinal colon pipes are in place.
15:17:10   Assuming you nabbed diamond from spawn when you could which I find likely. <-- I wish I had...
15:17:17  Not if some paedophile seizes them, Gregor.
15:17:24  Vorpal: Just ask server for diamond, the chest not working is a mere bug.
15:17:30  Vorpal: I'm sure you'd get it.
15:17:44  Bye elliott and all
15:17:58  Bye?
15:17:58  [Well, I might be here a few more minutes. Don't rely on it though]
15:18:01  Oh, Alluded-To.
15:18:01  elliott, still you don't even have somewhere to hide at night.
15:18:12  (Sgeo is off on a 5-hour KT-AT trip.)
15:18:20  5-hour? Dear god.
15:18:29  Phantom_Hoover: When the KT-AT's rocking, you'd better not come a'knocking.
15:18:29  Vorpal: No, but I have enough diamond blocks from spawn to make diamond armour and a sword.
15:18:30 -!- totem has left (?).
15:18:39  Vorpal: And with that you don't _need_ a house.
15:18:47  (Based on the movie, those things seemed pretty wobbly.)
15:18:53  Vorpal: Do you have that locally or have you tried it on a test server?
15:18:56  elliott: I creeper exploded my pyramid :(
15:18:57  No, he said that it was 5 hours for a sum total of half an hour of whatever the hell it is he plans to do.
15:19:00  Vorpal: I have; you kill skeletons in two hits.
15:19:08   elliott, still you don't even have somewhere to hide at night.
15:19:10  Phantom_Hoover: Eh?
15:19:11  j-invariant: :(
15:19:28   Vorpal: Do you have that locally or have you tried it on a test server? <-- tried what?
15:19:33  elliott: 5 hours of travel for 1.5 hours of "action".
15:19:35  He has a share in HHI, and as such can use corporate shelters.
15:19:58  Vorpal: Diamond armour + sword.
15:20:10  fizzie: Couldn't they just use a hotel?
15:20:16  elliott, well I made some just now on ineiros' server
15:20:19  I don't think they need to go to the Australian outback for some privacy.
15:20:49  elliott, with a dad like that, who knows
15:20:59  :-D
15:21:07  They turn around and he's been following them ALL THIS TIME
15:21:13  All the way to Australia
15:21:18  umm
15:21:25  what the hell is going on here
15:21:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:21:32  j-invariant: Sgeo is in Australia
15:21:32  http://i.imgur.com/gVH9s.png
15:21:35  oh
15:21:46  j-invariant: what do you mean?
15:21:52  also lol @ _01, i wonder what notch broke
15:21:54  water comeing from nowhere O_o
15:22:01  Well, he's headed for Australia.
15:22:02  j-invariant: All water comes from nowhere.
15:22:07  j-invariant: It's a water block.
15:22:09 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:22:13  minecraft does not have conservation of mass
15:22:13  Just like at the edges of pools, say.
15:22:16  And it flows down from there.
15:22:24  j-invariant: All  waterfalls are like that.
15:22:30  j-invariant: (only 3 torches?)
15:22:36  >.> we're not doing anything
15:22:43  Bye
15:22:52  Sgeo, it's OK, your dad can't spy on you here.
15:22:58  Or wait, maybe he can.
15:23:03  Phantom_Hoover: "The last one is interesting.. The problem with chunk visibility errors was that for some reason the “dirty” flag on chunks and the list of “dirty chunks” got out of synch. There wasn’t time to try to do a proper fix today, so I just made the client check a couple of dirty chunks per frame to make sure they’re in the list."
15:23:10  Sgeo: [I am watching you. --your dad, proxying]
15:23:14  Sgeo: [xoxo]
15:23:23  Sgeo, we can always kidnap him for a couple of hours.
15:23:33  Phantom_Hoover: So what's the secret useful block?
15:23:34  We'll be more than happy to, in fact.
15:23:44  Dispenser
15:23:46  *.
15:23:47  Yes. And then kill him.
15:23:56  Sshhhh!
15:24:05  We're TRYING to trick Sgeo!
15:24:08  ineiros: UPDATE THE SERVER
15:24:15  is there something interesting in nether?
15:24:47  nooga, lightstone. Slow sand. Netherstone. Ghasts.
15:24:57  ineiros, wait with updating server until hmod is updated (or bukkit is out)
15:24:59  ineiros, :)
15:25:06  It's also usable as hyperspace.
15:25:06  elliott, just use the alternative laucher to play
15:25:09  Vorpal: hMod will never be updated.
15:25:18  elliott, well wait for bukkit then
15:25:26  Vorpal: Bukkit is not going to be stable for a _while_.
15:25:30  They haven't even released a pre-alpha build yet.
15:25:39  There is nothing wrong with the vanilla server, just don't make any big jumps.
15:25:43  It's not like you do anyway, thanks to armour.
15:25:47  elliott, well iirc hmod was going to be upgraded until hmod was out
15:25:55  Vorpal: Allow me to quote.
15:25:56  elliott, if I do that I take armour off.
15:26:01  Although people have already been under the impression that we pledged to keep hMod up to date, this isn't the case. Prior to this announcement, we had not stated anywhere that we would be maintaining hMod and anyone believing otherwise was mistaken. However, we do recognise the predicament we've put server admins in as hey0 has announced that hMod is essentially no more, and Bukkit is not ready for public consumption yet.
15:26:02  [[We will try and update hMod (at least this time)]] — Bukkit devs.
15:26:10  Apparently the Bukkit team are "trying" to update hMod.
15:26:13  But I wouldn't rely on it.
15:26:15  The beta update is _big_.
15:26:21  elliott, yeah.
15:26:28  It will take longer then the original beta update, I would bet.
15:26:34  probably
15:26:35  So I would just use the vanilla server for now.
15:26:46  elliott, just use the alternative launcher
15:26:49  it works perfectly
15:26:56  I've already updated, and I want lapis lazuli.
15:27:02  slow sand?
15:27:05 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:27:13  nooga: *SOUUUUUL sand
15:27:14  elliott, you don't have a backup? Well I could send you my files then
15:27:18  elliott, relevant: bonemeal can be turned into lapis lazuli.
15:27:27  Vorpal: I think you're missing something here: I _want_ to be updated.
15:27:32  Vorpal: What exactly is wrong with the vanilla server?
15:27:38  ineiros used it before and there were no problems.
15:27:41  elliott, no /home or /spawn
15:27:43  Problem: we don't have bonemeal unless monsters are on.
15:27:48  Vorpal: So?
15:27:50 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:27:53  elliott, also, health is a bugger.
15:27:55  It's not like you can't find Mount Vorpal.
15:28:02  Phantom_Hoover: Less of a bugger than not having the newest version
15:28:15  elliott, not really no. The current version works fine.
15:28:22  but sure, as long as monsters are off.
15:28:53  Current version isn't fine for anyone who's using the latest version in their single-player game
15:29:11  elliott, easy to switch. just an mv
15:29:16  or two rather
15:29:24  elliott, and you always made backup of old version before
15:29:29  so I would assume you have that now too
15:29:35  No, I didn't, because I realise it'll only be useful for a few days.
15:30:10  elliott, well then I can send you my files if you want.
15:30:24  I'd rather ineiros updates :-P
15:30:26  He did last time, so.
15:30:35  elliott, anyway no glass kit, no other kit either if you play without a mod
15:30:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:31:07  It's not like glass is being used much.
15:31:16  And it's not like our tools are going to wear out in the next, uh, 100 years or so.
15:31:29  There is a "non-working" 1.2 hMod in th github, so someone's doing something, at least.
15:31:33  elliott, actually, shovels can wear out surprisingly quickly.
15:31:44  OH NO GRASS WILL TAKE HALF A SECOND TO DIG!!!!!!!!!!
15:31:51   elliott, relevant: bonemeal can be turned into lapis lazuli. <-- how?
15:31:59  Not telling.
15:32:03  SECRET
15:32:06  Phantom_Hoover, there is no mention on the wiki of that
15:32:07  Vorpal: Advantage of latest beta: Coal is completely renewable.
15:32:15  Vorpal: With a tree farm, you can turn 0 coal into 1,000,000 coal.
15:32:23  elliott, yes, that is a minor advantage.
15:32:24  Vorpal: Why? Wood can be smelted into 8 coal.
15:32:26  "Minor"?
15:32:31  Coal is the most useful fucking ore in the game.
15:32:35  You have like 70 furnaces.
15:32:36  elliott, disadvantage: no hmod or bukkit yet
15:32:40  which is way larger
15:32:42  FFS.
15:33:03  Vorpal: ... seriously, how often do you use hMod commands? /home, /spawn, maybe.
15:33:08  Health? You never do anything dangerous anyway.
15:33:09  We have enough iron stocks to offset health considerably anyway.
15:33:17  elliott, /kit too
15:33:29  Vorpal: seriously?
15:33:32  How often do you use that?
15:33:35  There's (1) glass and (2) tools.
15:33:41  elliott, twice the last few hours. Been mining.
15:33:42  You already have tools. Probably backups knowing you.
15:33:55  Mining? Don't you have EVERY ORE EVER?
15:34:16 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:34:19  elliott, mining is also fun. Since I combined it with spelunking
15:34:33  and without spelunking, what is the point of minecraft?
15:34:37  Riiiiiiight.
15:35:42  elliott, and health off is important.
15:36:22  No. It isn't.
15:36:29  You always do things the safest way. You rarely jump far.
15:36:30  elliott, why not
15:36:37  is there a language with a continuous address space?
15:36:38  How on EARTH is health a problem for you?
15:36:44  elliott, never wondered why I had no armour the last few weeks?
15:36:47  elliott, because it broke
15:36:47  e.g. floating-point pointers
15:36:53  Vorpal: By doing what?
15:37:01  elliott, spelunking
15:37:15  Vorpal: How did you lose health?
15:37:30  elliott, fall damage mostly
15:37:36  Vorpal, given the health regenerates and armour doesn't, it's not too big a deal.
15:37:42  Vorpal: Are you too stupid to see what's right ahead of you??
15:37:49  Just don't jump down 20-metre drops and you'll be fine.
15:37:49  Vorpal: But yeah, as Phantom_Hoover said, health regenerate.
15:37:51  *regenerates.
15:37:52  Quickly.
15:37:57 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:37:58  I doubt you could die without being incredibly wilfully stupid.
15:38:00  elliott, only if monsters are off though
15:38:07  Vorpal: Uhh, you think ineiros is going to turn monsters on?
15:38:09  Are you on crack?
15:38:25  "Oh, I was going to wait for hMod, BUT INSTEAD I TURNED MONSTERS AND PVP ON AND THEN DESTROYED YOUR HOUSE, ENJOY."
15:38:25  elliott, who knows. Has he been near alcohol?
15:38:39  Ah, right, I forgot, alcohol turns people into abject morons in Vorpal-land.
15:38:48  No exceptions.
15:38:52  elliott, well remember hell world?
15:39:08  Note how that had no lasting effects and did not take place in the actual world.
15:39:13  Note how it happened only because of lots of invalid moving going on.
15:39:18  Note how you're making no sense whatsoever.
15:39:19  elliott, true
15:39:26  I am making sense
15:39:29 -!- hiato has joined.
15:40:16  cheater00: Someone on comp.lang.c seriously suggested extending C so that floats can be used as array indices to access individual bits of the bytes.
15:40:47  fizzie: i was more thinking about arbitrary-precision definitions of data
15:40:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
15:40:51  fizzie: :-D
15:40:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:40:55  fractals or continuous functions
15:41:02  fizzie, makes sense.
15:41:03  but i can see how floats would be fun there :D
15:41:04  cheater00: the Infinity Machine has infinite-sequence-of-bits addressed memory.
15:41:06  Which is equivalent.
15:41:13  http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
15:41:23  elliott: welllllll
15:41:32  An infinite sequence of bits is the same as a real.
15:41:37  elliott: the practical side of things will probably be very different.
15:41:39  Don't disagree with that, because you'll be wrong.
15:41:45  cheater00: This is not practical in any way, shape, or form.
15:43:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:45:16  good
15:45:19  that's the way i like it.
15:45:59  i'm installing half of windows on my ubuntu right now. meh
15:46:14  why does everyone use windows?
15:46:19  i don't know
15:46:19  I always thought it was rubbish so I never bothered
15:46:21  yea
15:46:28  but i want to run fallout 2
15:46:33  and this means i need to run winetricks
15:46:34  j-invariant, join the club!
15:46:41  The answer is market dominance.
15:46:47  AKA capitalism doesn't actually work.
15:46:50  I used to use Mac OS but I don't like apple any more
15:46:51 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:47:20  I think apple used to be a good company but they have rotted and now they push DRM etc etc
15:47:24  j-invariant: i hate apple, just bought an apple machine, and don't use mac os on it
15:47:29 * elliott CRAAAAAZY
15:47:42  yeah I couldn't install any GNU/Linux system of my mac
15:48:05  elliott: YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT
15:48:07  well I could but it didn't work perfectly
15:48:25  *GNU/Linux/X.org/util-linux-ng/cron/...
15:48:37  whats X.org lol
15:48:46  what's Linux
15:48:48  The providers of the X11 server. The term GNU/Linux is frankly offensive.
15:49:00  is that a kernel for the GNU operating system?
15:49:05  Linux is a made up operating system from the hit TV series "The IT Crowd"
15:49:05  No, GNU did _not_ provide all the software required to run this Linux machine.
15:49:17  They don't get the right to the name just because they wrote the coreutils.
15:49:22  j-invariant: oh.
15:49:44  elliott: got any citation on this?
15:49:51  j-invariant: Citation for what exactly?
15:50:01  elliott: that GNU/Linux is offensive
15:50:03  elliott: for the fact that GNU did not make ALL of Linux
15:50:07  j-invariant, actually look up who wrote the software?
15:50:10  j-invariant: That's a personal, subjective opinion.
15:50:16  j-invariant: How am I supposed to provide a citation for it?
15:50:26  elliott: [E. Hird]
15:50:34  If you use non-GNU software integrally to your OS, "GNU/Linux" is inaccurate.
15:50:57  Phantom_Hoover: what about GNU+Linux?
15:50:59  "Linux" is more acceptable since it is almost universally used as a generic term for a Linux-based operating system; "the Linux kernel" is more commonly used to refer to the kernel itself.
15:51:17  "GNU/Linux" manages, by omission, to disregard all the other important parties who wrote software to make a modern Linux OS work fully.
15:51:24  rms enjoys overstating GNU's efforts.
15:51:25  since Linux :|: GNU != {}
15:51:26  i think Linux omits them too
15:51:41  j-invariant: As I said: Linux is used as a generic name to refer to a Linux-based operating system.
15:51:52  j-invariant: "GNU/Linux" is explicitly defined, and exclusively used, as referring to Linux as a kernel.
15:51:56  j-invariant, you still haven't demonstrated that you aren't English and as such should not be ignored, BtW.
15:52:02  Therefore, "GNU/Linux" disregards more efforts than "Linux".
15:52:11  And also puts GNU in an unwarranted position of importance.
15:52:27  what other kernels does GNU have?
15:52:32  HUUUUURD
15:52:38  And, uh, kFreeBSD if you use Debian :-P
15:52:48  Except that uses BSD libc I think. Or does it? I don't know. Maybe not.
15:52:54  I think not actually.
15:53:01  Elliott HUUUUURD
15:53:21  kElliottBSD
15:53:30  and Liott
15:53:42  the three kernels of the ELLIOTT operating system.
15:53:50  @'s kernel is @.
15:53:50  Maybe you meant: . ? @ ask bf do ft id msg pl rc v wn
15:53:57  Fuck off, lambdabot.
15:54:15  are there any kernels being developed for lambda machines?
15:54:19  ^bf-txtgen floople
15:54:28  "lambda machines"?
15:54:32  Phantom_Hoover: fail
15:54:32  ^help
15:54:32  ^ ; ^def   ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:54:37  lisp machines!
15:54:38  that is.
15:54:44  !bf_txtgen rambunctiability
15:54:55  cheater00: Uh, Genera is still sold but not maintained.
15:55:03  I thought it was fungot for some reason...
15:55:03  Phantom_Hoover: when, in such a fun thing! just foaming at the
15:55:18  doesn't the GNU operating system (emacs) work on lisp machines?
15:56:10  cheater00: Symbolics machines came with Zmacs.
15:56:21  136 ++++++++++++++[>+>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>-.<<-----.>.<++++++++.-------.>+.<++++++.>++++++.>.+.+++++++.+++.<.<.+++++.<----. [700]
15:56:23  cheater00: Well, and all other Lisp Machines.
15:56:28  "Zmacs was written for the MIT Lisp machine and runs on its descendants (Symbolics Genera, LMI Lambda, TI Explorer). Zmacs is written in Lisp Machine Lisp (called ZetaLisp on Symbolics Lisp Machines)."
15:57:15  @bf ++++++++++++++[>+>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>-.<<-----.>.<++++++++.-------.>+.<++++++.>++++++.>.+.+++++++.+++.<.<.+++++.<----.
15:57:15    rambunctiability
15:57:47  i can hear a lot of teen girls outside my door
15:57:52  i'm gonna go check it out
15:58:04  !bf_txtgen On Thinkable Forms, with notes towards a Logical Imaging Technique
15:58:08  653 ++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++++>+++<<<<-]>-----.>++.>>----.<<<+++++.++++++++++++++++++++.+.>.---.<--------.+.>+.<+++.>>>.<--.<<++++++++++.+++.>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>++++++++++++.------------.<++++.<---.>---.<-.>>.<<<----.+.>>.<---.>-.>.<+.-----.++++++++.<----.<+++.>+++.>----.>.<<---.>>.<<---------------------.>----.<<-----------.++.------.--.>>---.>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
15:58:13  phail
16:00:05  wait
16:00:16  i should generate a new world after update
16:00:27  to mine new blocks, right?
16:00:41  or just move around to generate new chunks?
16:01:18  nooga: just move around
16:01:33  nooga: you may want to use a mapping tool to find where the nearest unloaded part is
16:02:21  fizzie: "Oh look, flight in Beta." http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=131336&sid=9ad025becbbe3a02f18bb7fa340b6670
16:02:24  fizzie: Bat -- out of the cag.
16:03:25  Phantom_Hoover: ^
16:06:42  cheater00 is not back
16:07:00  he is now
16:07:11  oh i thought the girls
16:07:12  teen girls in pantyhose = win
16:07:12  nvm
16:07:27  what were they doing there?
16:07:34  they're there every day all day
16:07:45  i live in a big house that has two ballrooms
16:07:54  since monday they're being used for a ballet school
16:08:03  oh
16:08:15  the teacher is all like "hey wanna join the classez"
16:08:43  and i'm mostly like "i'll have to see which group i like most"
16:08:43  :x
16:10:40  elliott: You know what really really irritates me
16:10:52  j-invariant: No, no I don't
16:11:02  when people say "yes, yes it is" or whatever
16:11:11  why does it repeat the word?
16:11:12  But. I say that
16:11:13  yes, yes it's irritating
16:11:27  It's for emphasis, welcome to language :P
16:12:08  you mean "I'm not _not_ sad" doesn't mean exactly that you're sad??
16:12:15  damn
16:16:51      What we say is that you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit. The principal developer is the GNU Project, and the system is basically GNU.
16:16:54      If you feel even more strongly about giving credit where it is due, you might feel that some secondary contributors also deserve credit in the system's name. If so, far be it from us to argue against it. If you feel that X11 deserves credit in the system's name, and you want to call the system GNU/X11/Linux, please do. If you feel that Perl simply cries out for mention, and you want to write GNU/Linux/Perl, go ahead.
16:17:00      Since a long name such as GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv becomes absurd, at some point you will have to set a threshold and omit the names of the many other secondary contributions. There is no one obvious right place to set the threshold, so wherever you set it, we won't argue against it.
16:17:05      Different threshold levels would lead to different choices of name for the system. But one name that cannot result from concerns of fairness and giving credit, not for any possible threshold level, is “Linux”. It can't be fair to give all the credit to one secondary contribution (Linux) while omitting the principal contribution (GNU).
16:18:10  j-invariant: GNU is not the principal contributor to Linux.
16:18:13  That is mere propaganda.
16:18:20  really?
16:18:31  Additionally "Linux" as a name does NOT refer to the kernel, it refers to the kernel PLUS all the additional software. That is how the terminology has evolved.
16:18:41  Claiming otherwise is dishonest.
16:19:02  how is that propaganda
16:19:43  j-invariant: Because it distorts the facts in a way that makes GNU look more important than they are, to serve something GNU wants (for people to call it GNU/Linux).
16:21:02  what facts
16:21:16  j-invariant, "GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv" <-- interesting product
16:21:31 * Vorpal tries to figure out what combining perl, tex and python would do
16:21:33  j-invariant: For instance "GNU is the principal contributor to a full Linux-based system" is incorrect.
16:21:50  Linus is?
16:21:54  j-invariant: No?
16:21:58  what the
16:22:00  (yeah yeah, not meant like that)
16:22:00  what then
16:22:06  There is no one principal contributor.
16:22:15  In 2008, we found that GNU packages made up 15% of the “main” repository of the gNewSense GNU/Linux distribution. Linux made up 1.5%. So the same argument would apply even more strongly to calling it “Linux”.
16:22:26  j-invariant: Package count is irrelevant.
16:22:45  j-invariant: gNewSense is a biased source; it is a GNU project that refuses to package software the FSF doesn't consider a suitable part of a Free system, this includes Firefox.
16:22:53  They instead package a GNU fork of Firefox, artificially inflating the GNU count here. etc.
16:23:01  j-invariant, Linux deserves a mention. It is the kernel after all. Same goes for any other kernel.
16:23:17  If Ubuntu replaced the GNU coreutils with a fully-featured BusyBox tomorrow, yes, the system would be different, but the essential use of the system for 90% of its users would be very, very similar.
16:23:21  at least more than the userland does
16:23:29  Debian and Ubuntu already use a non-GNU C library -- eglibc, a fork of the GNU libc.
16:23:30  elliott: that's a good point
16:23:43  Even then, they could use a fully-featured uClibc and the system would still be very similar.
16:23:48  Not the same, but similar.
16:23:55  j-invariant: Heck, for most users of Ubuntu, the main contributor is GNOME.
16:23:58  how do you know bout eglibc etc :D
16:24:01  That is a GNU project, yes.
16:24:01  I never heard of these
16:24:02  elliott, actually I would react, mostly because much of my .bashrc would be broken :P
16:24:03  But consider KDE users.
16:24:09  j-invariant: I have a dormant distribution project.
16:24:16  what's that?
16:24:18  Vorpal: I said similar for most users.
16:24:21  j-invariant: What's... KDE?
16:24:29  Is that the question you are actually asking...?
16:24:41  "dormat distribution project
16:24:46  Oh.
16:24:48  *dormant :P
16:24:52  elliott, yeah I could survive. Might patch busybox grep to add --colour=auto or such. And a few small things like that
16:24:53  It's called Kitten.
16:24:57  ahh
16:24:59  cool
16:25:12  Notably it gives me good grounds to claim that GNU is not an essential part of Linux systems; I (was going to) use uClibc and BusyBox.
16:25:27  hehe
16:25:36  Leaving the main GNU software being, uh, the core compilation tools (binutils and gcc), and Emacs.
16:25:52  If you're a vi fan and use clang, that's reduced to just binutils.
16:26:09  elliott, btw do you know any better way than temporarily changing the /bin/sh symlink to bash from dash when a build system refuses to work with dash as /bin/sh. In this case it was some sub-configure of older binutils that I needed to a cross tolchain (no support for that target in recent binutils)
16:26:23  Vorpal: Gregor has the solution to that.
16:26:25  SPS!
16:26:26  or was it a sub-configure of old gcc? hm. One of them
16:26:45  Let's see, what would the syntax be...
16:26:51  elliott, well, something that works with minimal work. Something that is easier than sudo -s and changing the symlink around
16:27:00  elliott, like setting an env variable or something
16:27:01  Vorpal: $ sps with 'sh == bash' -- ./configure
16:27:12  Assuming == is the syntax for setting the selected metapackage or whatever.
16:27:23  elliott, takes more work since I would need to install that and so on.
16:27:34  Vorpal: "How can I solve this problem without changing anything?" You can't.
16:28:00  elliott, well I had a vague memory that make had some MAKE_SHELL_TO_BE_USED env var.
16:28:04  (with some other name)
16:28:10  Vorpal: How about $ find . | xargs sed -i 's,/bin/sh,bash,g'
16:28:23  Also, confgure isn't make.
16:28:36  elliott, yep, but I was hoping it had something similar
16:28:49  elliott, you know, it has CC, LD, and what not
16:28:52  so why not I thought
16:28:56  You mean like:
16:29:03  #!/bin/sh
16:29:20  if ! [ "x$SH" = "x" ]; then
16:29:27  elliott, well the issue here was that it was in a subconfigure. And also I think inside a statement using sh -c or similar
16:29:34    if ! [ "$SH" = "/bin/sh" ]; then
16:29:40      $SH "$0"
16:29:43      exit
16:29:43  elliott, hah :P
16:29:44    fi
16:29:44  fi
16:29:45  :P
16:29:57  (Verbosity added due to configure working on ANY SYSTEM YOU WANT, so long as it's GNU.)
16:30:16  elliott, well just doing bash ./configure would work EXCEPT that it was one of the damn recursive configures that was invoked after you run make
16:30:25  Throw it out and write your own program.
16:30:37  Vorpal: Oh wow, with that SH thing, you could do
16:30:41  SH=cat ./configure
16:30:46  GENIUS
16:30:47  elliott, for older gcc you did a cross toolchain by cd gcc-source && ln -s ../binutils-source/foo
16:30:50  that kind of stuff
16:30:53  ^^^ GENIUS
16:31:23  elliott, and then you built gcc and binutils together at once
16:32:39  elliott, I had to patch gcc configure since it grepped configure.ac of binutils for the version of it, and depended on a specific whitespace length for indentation. Which was no longer the case.
16:32:48  elliott, gnu buildsystem eh?
16:32:52  build system*
16:33:06  But don't you know, it's _portable_.
16:33:13  elliott, except not between versions
16:33:19  Or anything.
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16:39:03  Phantom_Hoover: Get that APT developer over here to tell me how to write cabal2deb.
16:40:43  elliott, over here, why not go to where that guy is
16:41:06  He's in Edinburgh.
16:41:14  Also ostensibly minorly incompetent.
16:42:18  elliott, he hates functional programming.
16:42:29  Strike ostensibly, minorly, insert incredibly.
16:49:37 -!- Tritonio has joined.
16:49:40  He decided to learn C and C++ over Haskell and Lisp.
16:50:28  (And probably failed Higher maths, which is an exercise in stupidity.)
16:51:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
16:52:24  Sgeo, still on your KT-AT trip?
16:53:11  It wont take as long as I thought to get there, or to wait once I'm there. I miscounted
16:53:29  Exactly what is this journey you're making?
16:54:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:54:38  A detour around a train station my dad said was unsafe
16:54:43  L O L
16:54:53  I have no words left.
16:54:58  Also, me preferring tl be an hour early than a little late
16:55:20  SgeoN1, that offer of kidnapping is still valid.
16:55:32  In fact, you will have to pay me not to go through with it.
16:56:11  It would have only saved 20 min or so to use that route, and due to my wish to be early I would have left the house at the same time
16:56:58  There's this film noir mafia train station in my head and I love it.
16:59:00  There better be a place to sit
16:59:36  Going to save battery. Bye.
16:59:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
17:00:03  "Don't go through that station, Seth. THERE MIGHT NOT BE A PLACE TO SIT"
17:00:16  If this conversation did not take place someone will die.
17:00:58  elliott, oh, best part of Incompetent APT Guy: despite having evidently no aptitude for mathematics whatsoever, he wants to do CS at university
17:01:18  ???
17:01:38  today, CS is for people who "can't do math"
17:01:41  Seth... that station be grue territory. Don't go/
17:01:42  *go.
17:01:46  (it shouldn't be though)
17:02:35  j-invariant: there are good CS curricula out there ... but ...
17:02:46  it's rare
17:03:23  i suspect scotland of holding them hostage from the rest of the world
17:03:35  hah
17:03:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:04:35  oxford apparently uses Haskell and Oberon for first-years, which is an... interesting combination
17:05:48   i suspect scotland of holding them hostage from the rest of the world ← hm?
17:05:59  Phantom_Hoover: Think Epigram.
17:06:08  Ah, yes.
17:06:17  You're so inferior to me.
17:06:31  Indeed. Perhaps I shall step in front of a train.
17:06:50  What, someone actually uses csh.
17:07:03  Astonishing.
17:07:51  j-invariant, it's not just that he can't do maths, he's doing Higher /again/.
17:08:03  repeating because he was not good at it?
17:08:05  Meanwhile: "Gnus is an awesome mail and news reader, but it can be a bit of a performance bear, especially when using IMAP. Since Emacs is single-threaded, IMAP operations that take too long can disconnect you from IRC, Jabber, or any number of other network services you also use from Emacs."
17:08:09  This implies he either failed or got an abysmal mark when he first did it.
17:08:11  wait I don't even know who you are talking about
17:09:28  j-invariant, just so you know, Higher maths goes no further than basic calculus.
17:09:44  who is it
17:09:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:09:54  hi ais523
17:09:59  i was just thinking about scapegoat actually
17:10:12  elliott: ... Emacs is single-threaded? Wow. It's even more of a hack than I thought.
17:10:19  j-invariant, a guy at my school who is an APT developer or somesuch.
17:10:19  pikhq: You didn't know that?
17:10:31  Phantom_Hoover: I'm fairly sure he hasn't actually submitted any code for apt.
17:10:32  oh apt
17:10:43  elliott, yes, probably.
17:10:46  if he hacks on some serious software he probably has some ability
17:11:04  I would put not being skilled at mathematics down to the low quality of mathematics education in general
17:11:11  I don't know of any decent code he's done.
17:11:12  j-invariant: As I said, he doesn't actually code apt.
17:11:17  He just creates deb packages.
17:11:24  Seemingly limited to applying other people's debdiffs.
17:11:27  teach him to program
17:11:28  At least that's what I could find.
17:11:41  j-invariant: seriously?
17:11:51  That would likely be living hell and Phantom_Hoover has other things he has to do.
17:12:24  He is also doing Advanced Higher computing, which, given my understanding of the SQA computing curricula, is probably just going to make him even worse at coding.
17:12:40 * Phantom_Hoover despairs at the world.
17:13:17  Well. I suppose they do actually run on DOS still.
17:13:27  I was deleting the "higher mathematics" to leave "curriculum" in Google, then started typing "advanced" at the start... and it came up with "advanced kindergarten curriculum".
17:13:34  Advanced. Kindergarten.
17:13:35  :D
17:13:45  ais523: can I ask you a scapegoat question?
17:13:56  Phantom_Hoover: Fingerpainting and quantum physics!
17:14:08  ANYWAY, need to see the AH computing curriculum to see if it's contempt-worthy.
17:14:24 * Phantom_Hoover forgets why he uses Firefox, switches to Chrome.
17:15:17  17:14  * Phantom_Hoover despairs at the world.
17:15:19  teach him to program
17:15:23  j-invariant: why
17:15:36  fix things
17:16:07  j-invariant, what can I do? I never exactly learned to program in any well-defined way myself.
17:16:22  j-invariant: what
17:16:50  Phantom_Hoover: you could learn some things from books
17:17:40  j-invariant: why?
17:17:50  why what
17:17:57  j-invariant: why should he teach him how to program
17:18:00  So, SCEA v. George Hotz et al. is currently having a hearing regarding SCEA's motion for a temporary restraining order...
17:18:04  to help both of them
17:18:06  Wonder how that's going down.
17:18:12  why do you believe he wants to be taught, he believes he can program already i gather
17:18:14  j-invariant, not too interested.
17:18:16  j-invariant: how would it help Phantom_Hoover
17:18:23  he probably doesn't want to
17:18:26  I could always just chuck SICP at him and hope it sticks.
17:18:27  j-invariant: how would it help Phantom_Hoover?
17:18:28  but it might be
17:18:42  elliott: it is useful tot each things
17:18:56  j-invariant: I think Phantom_Hoover is competent enough already
17:19:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
17:20:13  Formal education in programming is, frankly, not helpful until you've got a general idea how it all works *anyways*...
17:20:15  elliott: that's daft, you can always learn more
17:20:29  elliott: go for it
17:20:34  j-invariant: not by teaching someone who already thinks he can program and has Strong Opinions that are wrong
17:20:44  elliott: okay
17:20:46  how to program is a silly subject.  algorithms and proofs thereof is where it's at, man
17:20:47  And heck, even formal "intro to programming" classes understand that. They pretty much go as far as "I want you to program this."
17:21:08  ais523: when you append a file to a directory, you also put the objects (StartOfFile ) and (EndOfFile ) in the database, right?
17:21:12  near-guaranteed way to spot spam #n+1: the body of the email asks you to contact an email address, claiming it's the author's, but which doesn't match the from or reply-to fields
17:21:20  quintopia: Well, yes, that's something that goes a bit beyond just "Here's the *bare basics*, now write some shit."
17:21:22  elliott: yes
17:21:30  ais523: right
17:21:31  so you have something to reference when you add to the file
17:21:32  ais523: that could happen if someone changed their email address though
17:21:50  j-invariant: hmm, I should add "without any indication of why that should be"
17:22:00  ais523: I'm trying to implement all the basic change algorithms in Haskell now, as pure as possible, but I'm having trouble doing ordered vs. unordered change structures elegantly
17:22:06  ais523: most of the algorithms on them are the same, but they share basically no members
17:22:24  that's interesting, but maybe not so surprising
17:22:32  pikhq: i think of "programming" as translating proven ideas into established languages.  and therefore, yes, it is the easy part :P
17:22:48  ais523: right now I'm considering just having SOF/EOF, the model being that there's only one file in this pure implementation :-)
17:22:59  Programming is a craft.
17:23:01  that might be a good start
17:23:22  Like other crafts, the way to learn it is to just do it a lot.
17:23:26  pikhq: yeah i can see that
17:23:42  i don't agree pikhq
17:23:56  the only reason it is a craft is because we don't properly understand it yet
17:24:11  well I do agree, it is a craft
17:24:14  but I would like to change that
17:24:23  what would you change it to
17:24:34  ais523: hmm, how would you grep a file for two things?
17:24:46  ais523: i.e., i want to filter the results of a grep by only showing the files that /also/ match another grep on that file
17:25:04  quintopia: something based on a foundation. e.g. bridge building today is quite sensible, we know which ones stay up and which fall down
17:25:23  quintopia: but in the past we could not build such a variety of interesting bridges because only a very small number were known to stay up
17:25:44  quintopia: I think programming will be similar: We should learn structural properties of large csale programming that "stay up"
17:26:14  j-invariant: We know *precisely* how to do large scale programming "right".
17:26:24  that's being done to i think.  that is called software engineering i ween, and some places teach it better than others.
17:26:26  We do?
17:26:38  of course, it's nowhere near the level of bridge-building yet
17:26:39  pikhq: huh? :)
17:26:44  elliott: Well, "right" to the extent that we can create bug-free programs.
17:26:48  pikhq, then why does noöne *do* it right?
17:26:52  because bridge-building fundamentals are more standardized
17:26:54  quintopia: software engineering is code for "code monkey training"
17:26:57  pikhq: I want to make a bug free program :(
17:26:57  pikhq: We can?
17:26:58  It's obnoxiously expensive!
17:27:07  pikhq: You mean the NASA model?
17:27:09  elliott: sadly, yes, in most places it is
17:27:09  No, that is not it.
17:27:20  It is _not_ a fundamentally hard task, I don't think.
17:27:21  Take bridges.
17:27:22  elliott: Well. Yes, I mean the NASA model.
17:27:32  elliott, wait, I thought Sgeo was doing SE-but-stupider?
17:27:35  Poor bastard...
17:27:38  Is creating each bridge an immensely difficult effort that goes under intense, INTENSE scrutiny, where the architect has little freedom because IT MUST WORK?
17:27:45  Not *really*.
17:27:53  Bridges are made all the time with not much fuss at all.
17:27:58  the NASA model is very interesting but I don't suppose it's necessary to work that way
17:28:00  And they stay up.
17:28:11  Currently it may well be the best, but in future there could be a "cheaper" way
17:28:20  elliott: galloping gertie aside, of course
17:28:23  elliott: how would you grep a file for two things? <-- grep -l | xargs grep
17:28:30  elliott: is that a multiline grep?
17:28:39  cheater00: well, sort of.
17:28:42  ais523: thanks
17:28:51  what elliott asked for was grepping only files that matched another grep
17:28:59  Anyways, a large part of the problem we see with common programs is that they are written in languages that make it *trivial* to introduce bugs.
17:29:01  and that's what xargs is for, pretty much
17:29:06  I feel at this point that I should point out that bridges are vastly easier to reason about than your average program.
17:29:11  And even very dangerous bugs.
17:29:16  pikhq: yeah. That's insane, it's mad that people still use e.g. PHP
17:29:21  obviously I've left a bunch of stuff out of the command line, but elliott's easily intelligent enough to infer it emself
17:29:22  pikhq: I just cannot understand that one bit
17:29:24  Off-by-one error in C? Bam, you're fucked.
17:29:47  pikhq: not many languages make it easy to avoid bugs
17:29:50  j-invariant, I think he's thinking more of C and other languages which are stupidly low-level but are ubiquitous because programmers are, by and large, idiots.
17:30:04  ais523: wtf, i seem to be unable to find my pastie of my scapegoat algo :D
17:30:08  maybe i never pasted it
17:30:10  ais523: Yes, but some languages make it easy to hit horrifyingly dangerous bugs.
17:30:11  arguably, Java was designed like that, but it doesn't actually help because throwing an exception and doing nothing about it is not much better than simply crashing
17:30:27  pikhq: where "horrifingly dangerous" = security bug? data loss bug
17:30:28  >
17:30:40  s/\n>/?/
17:30:44  Think "buffer overflows".
17:30:44  ais523, buffer overflow bug?
17:30:48  So, yeah, security bug.
17:30:58  buffer overflows are just one sort of security bug
17:31:13  arghghghgh
17:31:15  Yes, it's just an example of one that low-level languages make really easy to hit.
17:31:16  where is ftp_proxy being set
17:31:18  ais523, and they're by far the easiest to introduce.
17:31:27  why is linux so conniving
17:31:28  I'm not even sure they're the most common, exploitable dangling/NULL pointers seem around as common
17:31:30  um...what sort of people don't do something useful with caught exceptions?  (tbh, i don't like the way java does exceptions, but i don't like people who ignore errors even more)
17:31:33  alhtough they're a bit harder to exploit
17:31:45  this env variable isn't in any scripts that i know of!
17:31:57  quintopia: people who just squash the error message, or log it, or whatever, or throw it right out of the program
17:32:01  A buffer overflow can also just cause very unpredictable behavior.
17:32:04  in fact, I hardly ever see exceptions handled sensibly
17:32:16  ais523: yes, i meant, what is those people's IQ level?
17:32:18  At least a crash in a Java program does just that: it stops working.
17:32:35  elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/esotericlogs$ grep 'elliott>.*http://sprunge' 10* | sed 's/.*http/http/g;s,us/\(\w*\).*,us/\1,g' | while read url; do echo "$url: $(curl -s $url | head -n 1)"; done
17:32:36  quintopia: probably quite high, programmers tend to be more intelligent than average, I imagine
17:32:37  ais523: am i insane?
17:32:41  it's not a case of stupidity, it's a case of not caring
17:32:50  elliott: I don't think so
17:33:10  Whereas in C, you could hypothetically have the program start formatting the hard drive while whistling, because the programmer forgot to check the size of a buffer.
17:33:12  incidentally, I'm wondering how easy that operation would be in Windows, I doubt it would be a one-liner...
17:33:55  pikhq: there was a thread on comp.lang.c where they asked people what the worst undefined behaviour behaviour was that they'd ever seen in practice
17:34:07  http://sprunge.us/gZDO
17:34:08  found it
17:34:09  someone had a buffer overflow jump to the "are you sure?" of the format routine, which happened to be in RAM at the time
17:34:23  lol
17:34:27  and said they thought themselves lucky that it didn't jump to just after the check
17:34:28  wow!
17:34:37  j-invariant: ?
17:34:37  (it may well have tried to format a nonexistent drive, though)
17:34:52  ais523: Yeah, that's positively frightening.
17:35:02  No MMU in that computer?
17:35:13  Ilari: Probably DOS.
17:35:17  ais523: i just want to make sure you realise that applying changes in scapegoat involves a potentially expensive topographic sort
17:35:22  Ilari: they didn't say it was DOS, but that was implied
17:35:30  elliott: yep, that seems plausible
17:35:42  I'm one for semantics first, efficiency second, in most cases
17:35:43  ais523: because, you have to figure out the order to apply it in to avoid fake conflicts
17:35:46  because most things can be optimised
17:35:55  ais523: oh, in my opinion this is a great achievement
17:36:00  ais523: you know why?
17:36:04  why?
17:36:11  ais523: previously, it was thought that a version control system being slower than darcs 1 was a logical impossibility
17:36:15  but we will prove them wrong
17:36:18  haha
17:36:55  elliott, darcs 1? what is the current version of it?
17:37:01  Vorpal: 2
17:37:02  I think it optimises pretty well, actually; you can cache tsorts
17:37:07  they solved a major inefficiency
17:37:10  elliott, ah
17:37:25  elliott: to be precise, 1 and 2 have a similar average case (although I think it's faster), but 1 had a completely insane worst case
17:37:32  which was hit in practice fairly often
17:38:26  ais523: here is what inspired me to resume implementing scapegoat, by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGmwA5yBn0
17:38:38  ais523: I figured I should get to the point where I can make a video with an EVEN BETTER commit tree.
17:39:17  There is so much resistance to the improvement of programming
17:39:42  j-invariant: ?
17:39:52  ais523: don't you also observe that?
17:40:04  juts look at blog posts or reddit or anything like that
17:40:32  I mean, you may be correct, but your statement's too vague for me to be sure of what it means
17:42:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:43:05  this channel's definition of "improvement of programming" may be quite different from many others'...
17:44:40  ais523: that video, incidentally, makes me dislike git
17:44:42  heh *cackle*
17:44:50  I didn't quite realise the implications of its rather basic model
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17:46:20  pikhq: I improved on your lambdas in C, but completing the implementation requires some cpp hackery that I'm not good enough to do.
17:46:22  elliott, wait, you started disliking git heh
17:46:23  elliott, I'm actually interested in how Scapegoat works now.
17:46:27  I'm going to watch that video
17:46:39  Vorpal: Well it's still what I'd use in practice if not darcs, but scapegoat is better.
17:47:05  Phantom_Hoover: hmm, I'm happy to explain it but ask ais523 first; if he wants me to I will, but he gets the first opportunity
17:47:16  ais523, do you want to explain?
17:47:19  you'd better, I'm currently angry (at something unrelated to this channel)
17:47:36  variable: do you still think it's hard to combine haskell's IO with the functional parts?  (my impression is: it depends on how interactive your IO is)
17:47:38  ais523: More NetBeans students?
17:47:46  elliott, darcs is quite decent is isn't it? A bit weird and long names for the commands, but the same applies to git ("git st"? nope, "git status", sure sure tab complete, but even so there are more than one thing that tab complete on git st)
17:48:05  elliott: surprisingly, no
17:48:08  Vorpal: That latter is such a minor complaint that I can't even comprehend it.
17:48:11  Vorpal: (About git)
17:48:14  oerjan: oen thing that sucks is taking a pure code and moving it into a monad... Then again the oenly reason it's such a pain to do is because it /could/ be automated
17:48:28  elliott, well no it isn't a major issue. Just convenience of short commands
17:48:34  darcs tab-completes just fine on Debian/Ubuntu
17:48:38  Darcs is alright, yes.
17:49:16  I'm using a mixture of darcs and git for things nowadays; git when I have to collaborate with someone else a lot, darcs for personal things
17:49:22  j-invariant: well turning pure code into monadic requires making a decision about order of actions, which might not be relevant for the pure version
17:49:35  (and git for collaboration with others only because it's more popular so it's easier to persuade them to use it)
17:49:47  Phantom_Hoover: OK, so, do you know the basics of how git and darcs work?
17:49:59  Revisions and stuff?
17:50:08  (as i see it that's the same problem as with the interactivity)
17:50:14  Phantom_Hoover: that's an incredibly bad description
17:50:18  Phantom_Hoover: err, i can't really explain it then if you don't know the basic model of those two
17:50:20  and how they differ
17:50:20  sorry
17:50:20  as it applies only vaguely to git, and not really to darcs at all
17:50:47 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:50:51  (although it is possible to find something corresponding to a revision in darcs, say to port a darcs repo to a different VCS; it's a snapshot of the code as it was at a given time)
17:52:07  elliott, I've never needed a VCS!
17:52:18  I never bothered learning what the hell they did!
17:52:25  Phantom_Hoover: Then I cannot explain scapegoat to you, and nor can anyone else really.
17:52:30  (Well, other than control revisions.)
17:52:56 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
17:53:53  elliott: hmm, I think I really "get" git now, it's a bit like C in a way, you do everything by hand
17:54:11  ais523: what horrifies me is git-rebase
17:54:19  elliott, any recommended reading, then?
17:54:22  ais523: and the fact that people actually use it -- regularly
17:54:22  elliott: it horrifies me too, although probably not for the same reason
17:54:28  Phantom_Hoover: not really, I don't know what's good to read
17:54:36  hey, I use it regularly when I use git
17:54:36  ais523: my reason is that THAT SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED EVER
17:54:45  because it doesn't really work otherwise
17:54:48  ais523: use it regularly and *recommend it as a Good Thing*
17:54:53  as in, inherently
17:55:00  "gee keep your revision log clean!"
17:55:05  Just no. No no no.
17:55:06 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:55:08  elliott: put it this way, a simple git pull has an implicit rebase if it fast-forwards
17:55:14  You fail at version control.
17:55:19  ais523: which is just a flaw in git
17:55:23  really though, it's rewriting history
17:55:28  I can't imagine how anyone thinks that's a good idea
17:55:41  because git shows your history as you wish it were, rather than as how it actually was
17:56:26  if your repo starts out the same as someone else's, they make some changes, you pull them, your repos now have different histories, as one pulled the changes in a chunk, the other made them one at a time
17:56:37  in fact, git actually inherently goes exponential without any sort of rebase
17:56:50  because you have to keep on merging the fact that you're aware of the fact that the other person merged
17:56:56  now, I'm not saying this is a good thing at all
17:57:25  (git disregarding the same change made by two people in parallel I thought was just a detail, it's actually completely essential to the way that git works)
17:57:25  awful
17:57:36 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
17:57:43  ...
17:57:52 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:57:57  SgeoN1, has KT-AT stood you up?
17:58:11  A few minutes after I got here, she called to say she missed her bus
17:58:31  Yup.
17:59:06  ais523: coding haskell makes me crazy
17:59:18  I have to distill every algorithm down to the point where it's just a few combinators put together
17:59:20  anything else and I've failed
18:00:06   (git disregarding the same change made by two people in parallel I thought was just a detail, it's actually completely essential to the way that git works) <-- who gets credited with it then?
18:00:09  or what do you mean
18:00:11  We're going to try again tomorrow
18:00:35  Vorpal: I'm not entirely sure, it might actually be different in the two repos
18:00:49  because from git's view of the world, it doesn't matter
18:01:42  @undo do { x <- apply c xs; return $ (c1',s1) : (c2',s2) : x }
18:01:42  apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:01:48  ais523, so the revision id checksum thingy is on the delta, and doesn't include commit message or author?
18:01:50  @pl apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:01:51  ([(c1', s1), (c2', s2)] ++) `fmap` apply c xs
18:02:48  ais523: "replace SOF with X" is an invalid change, right?
18:02:51  same with s/SOF/EOF/
18:03:06  ais523: (I'm assuming there's a replace, since having it as a delete+insert causes fake conflicts)
18:03:19  (if not, "delete SOF/EOF" is an invalid change, right?)
18:04:29  > ((1 :) . (2 :)) [1,2,3]
18:04:31    [1,2,1,2,3]
18:07:20  I think ais523 just removed SOF.
18:11:42  elliott, I'm trying the airbase idea now, FWIW.
18:11:51  Phantom_Hoover: On SSP?
18:11:55  YEs.
18:11:59  *Yes.
18:11:59  Phantom_Hoover: Towards Dawn did it with tiny platforms.
18:12:16  elliott, I'm not going to be doing that, obviously.
18:12:21  WHY NO
18:12:21  T
18:12:36  I have enough wood now that I can smelt some coal overnight and get some torches.
18:12:53  (Charcoal is the best thing EVER.)
18:13:59  Waitwhat.
18:13:59 -!- j-invariant has joined.
18:14:03  Wood doesn't burn any more.
18:14:20  Ah, logs do.
18:14:25  GOOD THING I KEPT SOME
18:14:48  Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't?
18:14:51  Weird.
18:14:56 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:14:59  How many logs did you start with?
18:15:02  No, wait, planks still burn.
18:15:02  According to the wiki, at least.
18:15:08  Possibly a balance thing, but I'll need to check
18:16:08  The furnace isn't working at all.
18:16:09  19:04  elliott> @pl apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:16:10  19:04  lambdabot> ([(c1', s1), (c2', s2)] ++) `fmap` apply c xs
18:16:12  Phantom_Hoover: I have 26+5 right now, how much more should I get?
18:16:17  ooh, @pl is that clever now?
18:16:17 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
18:16:27  Don't know; I think I'll ask someone.
18:16:32  oerjan: became: apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:16:34  erm
18:16:40  oerjan: became   | otherwise = (((c1',s1) :) . ((c2',s2) :)) <$> apply c xs
18:17:24  elliott: you didn't use the [...] ++  ?
18:17:35  oerjan: no, because I have ((foo,bar) :) <$> in other cases of the function
18:17:37  so this is more consistent
18:17:45  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
18:17:58  It's *wood* which smelts to coal, not *planks*!
18:18:04  elliott: i think you have a redundant set of parentheses there
18:18:18  > (0$0<$>)
18:18:19    The operator `Data.Functor.<$>' [infixl 4] of a section
18:18:19       must have lowe...
18:19:03  the precedence of . is lower
18:19:10  er, higher
18:19:12  Phantom_Hoover: LAWL
18:19:17  Phantom_Hoover: Start a tree farm, btw.
18:19:24  oerjan: ah
18:19:30  I will, I have the dirt and saplings.
18:19:33  Phantom_Hoover: 10 cobble enough for the first night?
18:20:00  elliott: basically . has the highest possible precedence, and $ has the lowest
18:20:16  oerjan: um there is no $ here
18:20:52  elliott: no, it's just a general rule i go by
18:21:20  Phantom_Hoover: FWIW, how much wood did you start off with?
18:21:33  in fact it annoyed me that Parsec gave another operator ( iirc) the same precedence as $, in a way that ruined the ability to combine them
18:21:49  elliott, a pretty large amount.
18:22:04  Phantom_Hoover: how come everyone else's days seem to last 2398234982349 longer than mine
18:22:08  There were quite a few large trees when I found them
18:22:17  elliott, Actually, the night snuck up on me.
18:22:23  (if  had reversed its order of arguments and used the same fixity as $, they would have worked seamlessly together without parentheses)
18:22:32  that's weird. I found smoe new kind of wood but it's still called wood
18:22:37  I thought it was morning when it was evening
18:23:04  But by that point I had plenty of wood, cobble and dirt, so I just set up the base as night fell.
18:23:09  j-invariant, that's a FEATURE!
18:23:17  (There are now 3 kinds of tree.)
18:23:17  the Prelude has no operators sharing precedence with either . or $ afair
18:23:21  TODO: get a few more cobbles and then go up.
18:23:29  Phantom_Hoover: What's the third?
18:23:51  elliott, pine.
18:23:53  (well s/Prelude/\& and Haskell 98 library/
18:23:54  )
18:24:07  (The cobbles aren't that necessary, I just wanted them for peace of mind.)
18:24:57  Phantom_Hoover: The cobbles are required for furnace and also for initial tools.
18:25:06  Phantom_Hoover: nice, I really like this new kind
18:25:06  Phantom_Hoover: For instance a wood sword won't get you very fa.
18:25:07  *far.
18:25:15  I am trying to grow it
18:25:35  elliott, well, OK, but you won't need tools once you get up onto your platform for the night.
18:25:43  j-invariant: But the next day...
18:25:49  9 for a furnace is all you really need.
18:25:49  erm
18:25:51  *PH:
18:25:55  Phantom_Hoover: How high did you make your shelter?
18:26:01 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:26:05  Hi :-)
18:26:06  j-invariant: make my function prettier! http://sprunge.us/ECZO :P
18:26:07  Also, I now have a 5x5 tree plantation with 9 saplings!
18:26:14  I only have 8 saplings.
18:26:16  elliott, 30m off ground.
18:26:17  Ho
18:26:23  Phantom_Hoover: Off sea level?
18:26:33  Near enough.
18:26:57  impomatic: hm i have a vague idea there was something i wanted to tell you
18:27:29  Oerjan: was it about corewar, programming games or recursion?
18:27:42  hm _possibly_ recursion
18:28:10  Oerjan: or maybe you wanted to join the mob of people angry at me for some dodgy Forth code!
18:28:14  That creeper is just sitting there.
18:28:14  maybe i already did tell you, i'm not sure
18:28:16  Mocking me.
18:28:24  Preventing me from returning to the ground.
18:28:25  impomatic: i'm pretty sure it wasn't forth-related
18:28:34  Phantom_Hoover: did you use the dirt to be one piece of the floor?
18:28:39  i assume you made the house itself out of planks
18:28:52  elliott, yes.
18:29:01  Phantom_Hoover: Did you make walls?
18:29:04  impomatic: hm was it something wiki-related...
18:29:08  elliott, no.
18:29:11  Phantom_Hoover: A ceiling?
18:29:15  Rather superfluous, no?
18:29:16 * oerjan checks
18:29:20  Phantom_Hoover: A ceiling?
18:29:24  No.
18:29:43  It's only 5x5 with an adjoining 5x5 tree farm.
18:30:07  Oerjan: it might have been, I was asking about BF Joust, FYB, pastebin.ca and broken voxel links a few days ago :-P
18:30:29  impomatic: oh BF Joust it was
18:30:40  impomatic: i wanted to suggest you ask in agora
18:30:54  And a gigantic swath of APNIC allocations leaves them below 2.1 /8s.
18:30:55  since that's where it was invented
18:31:05  Phantom_Hoover: Did you build a one-high wall to stop you falling out, or are you more hardcore than me?
18:31:12  elliott, MORE HARDCORE
18:31:21  Which is their usual allocation threshold...
18:31:32  I might build a fence, but it might be too much bother if I expand.
18:31:39  Food →
18:32:01  Phantom_Hoover: I'm above water, so I can just jump off if I want. MWAHAHAHAHA
18:32:38  IANA depletion estimate: any minute now.
18:33:18  Oerjan: I found what I needed to know thanks... I was adding a brief history to the page on the programming games wiki http://programminggames.org/BF-Joust.ashx
18:33:41  my first crash :(
18:34:03  Back.
18:34:20  impomatic: oh you're Imp... you _do_ have a User:Impomatic too
18:34:20  Phantom_Hoover: One log only produces one coal.
18:34:29  Yes...?
18:34:55  Phantom_Hoover: Well it's INEFFICIENT!
18:35:08  No it isn't.
18:35:21  Oerjan: I know, but I forgot the password and I didn't set an email address to recover it :-(
18:35:27  Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's 5/4 logs to 1 coal.
18:35:32  Ilari: APNIC's pool is at 2.01 /8s. Thought you'd like to know.
18:35:47  elliott, ...no it isn't.
18:35:56  Phantom_Hoover: Oh, of course, you can use the coal as fuel.
18:37:21  Sod it. I am just going to set the difficulty to peaceful for a second and despawn the creepers.
18:37:38  pikhq: Source?
18:37:54  http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information
18:38:13  Phantom_Hoover: Why?
18:38:16  I'm going to go on to hard.
18:38:29  Phantom_Hoover: Question. Can trees grow on the corner of a platform?
18:38:37 * oerjan checks that he has his email set
18:39:15  Would anyone be interested in an ARobots tournament? http://programminggames.org/ARobots.ashx - basically CROBOTS in 8086 assembly
18:39:45  elliott, I should think so.
18:40:01  "When APNIC only has a total of one /8 left, the final /8 policy will be triggered." -- That's presumably some APNIC-internal policy...
18:40:08  Also, I'm just trying to get rid of daytime creepers, which are ridiculously broken gameplay-wise.
18:40:39  Ilari: Yeah, that's an allocation policy for dealing with being near RIR depletion.
18:41:19  For rationing out the very last /8.
18:41:23  Ilari: of course it doesn't actually _matter_ when they allocate, given that no one else is likely to do so.  apart from the news/propaganda value.
18:42:16  elliott, slightly more awesome version of the lavalight: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Ladder-lava-force-field.png
18:42:18  Phantom_Hoover: Facepalm. I just placed torches in my tree farm.
18:42:24  Phantom_Hoover: My tree farm that gets sunlight.
18:42:25  IPv4 depletion is near and I still don't have IPv6 service from my ISP.
18:42:35  Also, seen.
18:42:56  Same here...
18:42:58  :-/
18:43:11  :(
18:43:46 -!- cal153 has quit.
18:44:29  Phantom_Hoover: What should I do with my SEXY BLACK WOOL
18:46:04  elliott, pretend it's obsidian?
18:46:07  "Since my abandonment of RCS in favor of hg has caused comex to start
18:46:07  tracking the ruleset again, I resign as Rulekeepor."
18:46:54 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
18:48:09  According to APNIC extended delegated file, they have 33 608 704 IPs available (2.003 blocks)
18:48:27  THESE TREES IN'T GROWING
18:50:10  Lagerholm estimated that the request will be sent on monday and takes few days to process, officially depleting the pool on wednesday or thursday...
18:50:12  Phantom_Hoover: Make the trees grow.
18:50:13  elliott, agora? (wrt that quote)
18:50:17  Vorpal: Yes.
18:50:37  elliott, get some bonemeal?
18:50:37 -!- cal153 has joined.
18:50:43  Ilari, depleeting what pool?
18:50:44  Phantom_Hoover: How does that help?
18:50:47  Vorpal: *depleting
18:50:48  IANA IPv4.
18:50:56  Ilari, the global one!?
18:51:01  Yes ...
18:51:01  so soon?
18:51:03  Vorpal: Yes.
18:51:20  But it'll be a few months before we see the effects.
18:51:28  then allocation really spiked the last week or two
18:51:32  elliott, indeed I know that
18:51:50  elliott, bonemeal makes trees and crops grow instantly.
18:51:50  Phantom_Hoover: How does bonemeal help?
18:51:53  Vorpal: Yeah, APNIC had some massive allocation requests recently.
18:51:53  It does??
18:51:55  How do I get it again?
18:52:08 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
18:52:18  pikhq, ah
18:52:47   elliott, bonemeal makes trees and crops grow instantly. <-- really? How do you apply it then
18:53:02  before or after I mean
18:53:11  (planting)
18:53:11  Vorpal, right-click, I assume.
18:53:18  elliott, find bone. Craft bone.
18:53:24  Phantom_Hoover, and you claimed it makes that blue stuff. How?
18:53:25  Phantom_Hoover: How find bone.
18:53:25  Bones are dropped by skeletons.
18:53:30  Vorpal: Secret.
18:53:38  elliott, is it a bug or not?
18:53:40  Also, it's called lapis lazuli.
18:53:53  elliott, find skeleton. Kill skeleton.
18:54:05  Alternately: find skeleton. Wait 'till skeleton goes on fire.
18:54:06  Phantom_Hoover: I have no armour. That sounds scary.
18:54:10  That sounds easier.
18:54:49 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:54:53  Phantom_Hoover, just asking about that bonemeal -> lapis lazuli: is it done by making use of a bug or is it intended?
18:55:12  It is HHI secret.
18:55:21  Food →
18:55:25  elliott, you can answer if it is a bug or not without problems however.
18:55:33  Of course. But we won't.
18:55:36  DAMMIT TREES, GROW
18:55:40  STOP BEING HAPPY, COWS
18:55:42  MY TREES AREN'T GROWING
18:55:52  elliott, I can't see how it helps me if I knew if it was due to a bug or not
18:55:56  besides, why is it a secret
18:56:33  ah found it on youtube
18:56:41  The terrain generator's improvements are wonderful.
18:56:54  elliott, will it result in an edge towards current terrain?
18:57:03  Unlikely, I don't think it's new.
18:57:05  Just tweaked.
18:57:23  Take a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/IVrIw.png
18:57:28  I have no idea how far it goes.
18:57:55  elliott, well I seen similar things before
18:58:05  Biomes are still too tiny though.
18:59:51  I think the cobble texture has been changed.
18:59:54  Well.
19:00:01  The top of furnaces are now not the same as stone. :/
19:00:41  elliott, it has been fixed (the bonemeal thingy) in the update today it seems. At least according to reddit.
19:00:50  Lies.
19:01:11  elliott, hm okay.
19:01:55  INCIDENTALLY
19:01:59  Jeb made this: http://i.imgur.com/a7uht.png
19:02:13  Note how this update, which is cool and seems to have added almost no bugs, was made almost entirely by Jeb.
19:02:33  And also increases performance by including the code improvements of a (supposedly frowned-upon) modder.
19:02:41  hah
19:02:43  We should all pray that Notch decides to retire immediately.
19:02:47  Curiosity cam http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl#&utm_source=498663
19:02:51  And leaves Minecraft to Jeb.
19:03:09  elliott, notch had decent ideas though.
19:03:17  just poor at implementing them
19:03:19  But he should never be allowed near code. Ever.
19:03:27  elliott, that I can agree on
19:03:35  Also I think Notch ran out of ideas.
19:03:42  Before this Jeb update, the game had been much the same for ages.
19:03:59 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:04:36 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
19:05:54 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:06:50 -!- hiato has joined.
19:07:11  Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover: "Possbly due to an error, when Beta 1.2 came out trees that had already been created were re-created often with the same shape but more than one type of leaves, often all three."
19:07:20 -!- variable has joined.
19:07:48  elliott, is it this bug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K7BGI2Jq8E
19:07:57  HHI is silent.
19:08:07  elliott, if it is then it is already out in the open
19:08:08  :P
19:08:22  Vorpal, where did you *think* we got it from?
19:08:26  Vorpal: wow!
19:08:37  Phantom_Hoover: Not there at least.
19:08:41  j-invariant, it was a bug which has been fixed.
19:08:44  elliott: I've seen a tree with two leaves
19:08:48  Yes. But HHI still has the power.
19:08:51  j-invariant: :D
19:08:53 -!- acetoline has joined.
19:08:53  elliott, well, I got it from /r/minecraft, but anyway...
19:08:55  Phantom_Hoover, well you could have found it yourself?
19:09:00  Phantom_Hoover: Right, but we have the btter way.
19:09:09  Oh, that way.
19:09:11  Yes, we do.
19:09:22  Phantom_Hoover, found another way yourself? heh nice
19:09:25  Bone meal is white dye. Why.
19:09:31  Wool is already white!
19:10:02  elliott, well, you can combine it with coloured dyes to make light colour
19:10:10  Oh, they combine? Neat.
19:10:36  how do you make dye in the first place?
19:10:43  I've never seen anything like lapis lazuli in the wild
19:10:44  OMG YOU CAN PAINT SHEEP
19:10:46  j-invariant: various ways
19:10:48  j-invariant, various sources.
19:10:51  j-invariant: lapis lazuli is ore, near redstone
19:10:51  elliott, j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Wool_Dyes
19:10:57  or that
19:10:58   OMG YOU CAN PAINT SHEEP <-- old
19:11:03  I heard that yesterday
19:11:03  don't care
19:11:05  youcan paint sheep
19:11:09  elliott, OLD
19:11:16  elliott, this has been known since yesterday
19:11:16  you can paint sheep
19:11:18  don't care
19:11:19  you can paint sheep
19:11:23  hmm, Haskell is too elegant to easily read
19:11:36  ais523: wat
19:11:39  it's like the accusations people make against Perl, except actually warranted
19:11:45  elliott, correct. But if you think that is the most important thing to repeat... sure go ahead
19:11:46  ais523: not...really
19:11:48  I find Haskell easy to read
19:11:50  ais523, wrong way 'round.
19:11:52  it just says too much in too little a piece of code
19:12:04  ais523: It's _slower_ to read, but you have _less_ to read.
19:12:07  It's not more difficult.
19:12:08  Perl is needlessly hard to read, while Haskell is actually terse for a reason.
19:12:12  ais523: It's just more compact.
19:12:25  @hoogle tsort
19:12:26  No results found
19:12:29  @hoogle topological
19:12:30  No results found
19:14:22  Vorpal: How resource-intensive is blowing up a 128x128x127 cube of TNT?
19:14:41  _Extremely._
19:14:51  ais523: I find that Haskell is easy to read except when people are being *too* clever.
19:14:54  Servers have broken on me with *8* TNT.
19:15:07  Phantom_Hoover: WELL I WANT TO DO IT
19:15:13  ais523: The problem is, of course, is that some people are far too clever.
19:15:18  Go ahead, but your computer will die.
19:15:23  Phantom_Hoover: World editing plugin to clear 128x128x128 plus a bit, and then fill 128x128x127 with TNT, and detonate it.
19:15:28  Come back a few hours later with tea, observe destruction.
19:15:31  TNT is a lot to use one a server
19:15:35  *on
19:15:36  ais523: Perl, on the other hand, is hard to read except when people are being careful.
19:15:49  elliott, servers do actually crash with less TNT than that.
19:16:00  Of course, it may just be that I find a monad-pipeline pretty clear.
19:16:06  I love parsec
19:16:12  it's beauty
19:16:14  And I have had entire worlds corrupted.
19:16:25  oh, by the way
19:16:26  siunitx
19:16:30  is like the greatest package ever
19:16:44  ais523: hmm, it just occurred to me that there's probably a way to turn any container into an equivalent change structure
19:16:51  ais523: as in, lists -> file changes; sets -> directory changes
19:16:51  coppro: Oh?
19:17:10  pikhq: TeX package that does unit formatting for you
19:17:26  Delish.
19:17:43  G = \SI{6.67e-11}{\meter\cubed\per\kilogram\per\second\squared}
19:17:48  a bit verbose, but very legible
19:17:59  the verbosity is optional iirc
19:18:03 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
19:18:03   Vorpal: How resource-intensive is blowing up a 128x128x127 cube of TNT? <-- in what?
19:18:05  Wait, I remember what put me off Chrome.
19:18:09  No adblock.
19:18:09  Vorpal: Um, Minecraft?
19:18:10  elliott, CPU? Memory?
19:18:13  Everything.
19:18:17  Phantom_Hoover: Um, it has extensions.
19:18:21  Phantom_Hoover: And AdBlock.
19:18:21  elliott, or do you mean in number of TNT required
19:18:24  Vorpal: Former.
19:18:32  Yaaaaaay!
19:18:36  ais523: hmm, what's the rough algorithm for turning a set of scapegoat changes into a graph so that it can be topologically sorted?
19:19:27  elliott, I have no idea. But even something like a few hundred TNT could crash the server. Though iirc with 1.2 TNT was optimised a bit. Still I expect enough TNT will cause issues. No idea where the limit is.
19:20:39  it's an awesome package
19:22:26  so here's a tip; If you use shift to walk near the edge of a thing... even if you've stopped moving, letting go can make you fall
19:22:42  j-invariant: obviously :P
19:22:47  you can walk off the edge of a lock with sneaking
19:22:53  *block
19:22:57  elliott: no you can't
19:22:59  yes, you can
19:23:05  you see it on multiplayer
19:23:09  people off the edge of blocks while sneaking
19:23:11  leave go, fall down
19:23:41  elliott, how do you lock sneaking on, BtW?
19:23:46  Phantom_Hoover: you don't.
19:25:37  is there a very good source of health?
19:25:46  j-invariant, pigs, wheat, fish.
19:25:53  killing all the pigs is hard, oh I will try fishing!
19:26:03  You'll need string.
19:26:20  j-invariant: Set up a farm.
19:26:27  For wheat.
19:26:32  okay
19:29:55  Phantom_Hoover, hm interesting: "This same principal applies to combining string to form a wool block and grabbing it with a dyed wool block!"
19:29:58  You need a hoe first.
19:30:00  Phantom_Hoover, I guess that is it :)
19:30:13  Phantom_Hoover, or have you found a third way?
19:30:13  Vorpal, that bug is also fixed.
19:31:01  graphFromEdges :: Ord key => [(node, key, [key])] -> (Graph, Vertex -> (node, key, [key]), key -> Maybe Vertex)
19:31:02  Mrf, how stupid.
19:31:08  They are actually both the same bug.
19:31:15  Phantom_Hoover, hm
19:31:20  elliott, did you make up the Graph monad.
19:31:28  ?
19:31:46  Phantom_Hoover, so you have a third bug then?
19:32:07  We could not possibly comment.
19:32:33  elliott, dude this reveals nothing :P
19:32:42  aw the fishing line can't stretch infinitely far
19:32:56  elliott, and I was asking Phantom_Hoover not you
19:33:25  j-invariant, did you plan something that needed that?
19:34:45  Vorpal: no
19:35:03  http://i.imgur.com/46k5O.png Redstone over Radio
19:35:24  elliott: is that true :D
19:35:34  j-invariant: It's just an idea, of which there are billions.
19:35:36  BUT IT'S A GOOD ONE
19:35:41  it is a decent one yes
19:35:46  but why a hide?
19:35:55  elliott: I think minecraft should have a system for adding new things like this to it, since everyone has their own ideas
19:36:05  j-invariant: you want oklopol's game
19:36:06  Vorpal: vibrations
19:36:08  Vorpal: ear
19:36:13  Vorpal: it's like drum material
19:36:15  eardrum type stuff
19:36:19  what is it?
19:36:22  j-invariant: where every block has its own program in it
19:36:26  elliott, arguably that would be better for the music blocks instead
19:36:36  j-invariant: and you play by programming blocks to be bots that mine for you and shit
19:36:49  Vorpal: do you know what the eardrum is ...
19:36:51  is this a real game?
19:36:55  sound -> hide part vibrates -> stuff
19:36:57  j-invariant: well he's working on it
19:36:59  elliott, well yes, but do you know what a speaker is?
19:37:04  cool
19:37:07  Vorpal: yes.
19:37:24  oh speaker could use paper there I guess
19:37:34  most speaker membranes are paper afaik
19:37:40  really? xD
19:37:56  elliott, never took apart a loudspeaker?
19:38:03  no.
19:38:06  I need to get around to trying out that computer level
19:38:13  I haven't tried anyone elese minecraft worlds yeet
19:38:24  elliott, paper is very common as the membrane. I can't promise that every speaker use it but all the ones I took apart have
19:38:35   really? xD ← ...yes?
19:38:48  Vorpal: i see a market for audiophiles
19:38:53  PURE GOLD PAPER MEMBRANE
19:39:16  elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3.5_Inch_Speaker.jpg  the black is rather thick paper
19:39:48  Oh, I thought you meant paper-paper.
19:39:57  Like, actual writing-style paper paper.
19:40:17  elliott, no.
19:40:18  Phantom_Hoover:
19:40:19  You can hook a dispenser up to redstone, have the dispenser shoot an arrow at a wall of paintings with pressure plates underneath. The arrow knocks off the painting which hits a pressure plate and causes a continuation of the circuit.
19:40:19  WIRELESS REDSTONE!
19:40:20  "The diaphragm is usually manufactured with a cone- or dome-shaped profile. A variety of different materials may be used, but the most common are paper, plastic, and metal."
19:40:24  HHI Research must do this.
19:40:37  elliott, this has been done in the craftbook mod
19:40:42  I don't care.
19:40:56  HHI Research will use it to blow up TNT, which will be an innovation.
19:41:03  The test will take place underneath Mount Vorpal, a very secure location.
19:41:16  elliott, did you find that thing about the painting yourself?
19:41:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:41:24  elliott, as if...
19:41:36  I Ctrl+V'd, which is obvious.
19:41:47  elliott, no quotes around it
19:41:53  so I was wondering
19:41:53  Oh noes
19:42:02  elliott, why would it be that bad?
19:42:08  Phantom_Hoover: OH GOD SPIDERS CLIMBING WALLS WAS A PLAYER SUGGESTION WHY
19:42:12  Vorpal: ?
19:42:18   HHI Research will use it to blow up TNT, which will be an innovation. ← I feel that we need some other innovations.
19:42:24  TNT-related innovations?
19:42:25  I agree
19:42:27  *agree.
19:42:29  elliott, "oh noes" <-- why would forgetting quotes be that bad
19:42:35  Vorpal: ITT sarcasm
19:42:54  I hooked a creeper and pulled him towards me X)
19:43:29  j-invariant: stupidest thing to do ever :D
19:43:33  elliott, anyway I don't see the invention in using this thing someone else did. Not saying using it is a bad idea at mt hoover or at the cube. But calling it innovation seems a bit wrong :P
19:43:41  Vorpal: *mt vorpal
19:43:45  elliott, no
19:44:01  herlo
19:44:10  Phantom_Hoover: http://foone.org/minecraft/death/
19:44:18  i have no money
19:44:20  i want to minecraft
19:44:29  someone buy minecraft!
19:44:54  cheater99, ask elliott for that link that notch left wide open due to incompetence (if it still works?)
19:45:06  I don't service cheater99.
19:45:06  elliott: PLZ~
19:45:15 -!- cheater99 has changed nick to cheater98.
19:45:19  elliott: PLZ~
19:45:33  elliott, right. I guess it is a HHI secret?
19:45:41  Vorpal: No, cheater98 is just a twat.
19:45:48  Anyone else want Minecraft?
19:45:50  :'(
19:46:09 -!- cheater98 has changed nick to chelliott.
19:46:13  me!
19:46:41  Link? Wide open?
19:46:58  Yes, anyone can download minecraft.jar.
19:47:07  Ah, right.
19:47:10  He has S3 authentication tokens and whatnot set up but doesn't actually, you know, require them; you can just download the file.
19:47:15  Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, as in, bin/minecraft.jar.
19:47:25  As in, Notch's incompetence lets anyone pirate the game direct from Mojang.
19:47:34  so if you download it can you play on public servers?
19:47:49  elliott: Consider myself curious.
19:47:51  elliott, yes, I know.
19:48:08  chelliott: no.
19:48:13  elliott, also, I knew those chickens were up to something.
19:48:17  That will always require purchase due to Mojang's DRM system.
19:48:32  DRM?
19:48:49  pikhq: /msg
19:48:51  mojang?
19:48:59  j-invariant: The servers check with minecraft.net to see if you're authenticated and purchased.
19:49:06  There's no actual way around that other than the server being modded.
19:49:22  what server do you guys play on?
19:49:23  public?
19:49:30  or private/modded?
19:49:32  chelliott, not for you.
19:49:37  O M G
19:50:48  ( * chelliott pretends to care so that Phantom_Hoover and elliott actually think he's interested in playing minecraft with them, in order to do some "bonding", but doesn't really care deep down)
19:51:31  chelliott: they are very secetritve
19:51:51  j-invariant: Everyone knows our server, it's just that ineiros is technically the only person allowed to tell anyone and he's been away :P
19:51:53 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:51:59  elliott: I don't know it
19:52:07  j-invariant: because you haven't bugged ineiros while he's been online.
19:52:25  chelliott, you could find it in logs
19:52:34  Vorpal: right
19:52:40  Vorpal: but then, i don't get server :(
19:52:42  well I might ask him because I want to see "The Cube"
19:52:43  chelliott, grep them for http://.*minecraft.*
19:52:49  chelliott, tough shit
19:53:09  j-invariant: It's, er, very under-construction.
19:53:11  chelliott, iirc s3.amazon.com or whatever they call their service
19:53:17  Vorpal: Don't fucking tell him.
19:53:31  elliott, well you could start acting decently towards me
19:53:34  Although I guess as long as he doesn't find the server it's okay.
19:53:39  elliott, then I might care more for what you say
19:53:39  Vorpal: i am going to cry my eyes out and then curl up in an embrional position, bobbing back and forth, until the exhaustion makes me fall asleep.
19:54:00  i always wanted to see what it would be like to climb Mt. Vorpal :(
19:54:04  it is never to be..
19:54:08  Oh fuck off.
19:54:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
19:54:22  chelliott, you can do single player. For multiplayer you obviously need to buy the game
19:54:41  Vorpal: don't you guys have a hacked multiplayer server?
19:54:45  chelliott, anyway you can find the urls in the logs if you care for single player
19:54:49  chelliott, no. not hacked
19:54:50  Vorpal: sounds like a fairly simple thing to do in fact
19:55:02  just intercept the requests, no?
19:55:05  the cube?  the movie?
19:55:13  or a mc thing
19:55:47  elliott, anyway, when do you plan to start acting decently towards me? Do you expect something for nothing?
19:55:55  Vorpal: he does
19:55:59  :indignant:
19:55:59  Vorpal: i bet they're not even encrypted?
19:56:01  chelliott?  the female portal-shooting equivalent of ehird?
19:56:11  chelliott, what?
19:56:20  quintopia: cheater being a moron.
19:56:22  Vorpal: those call-homes
19:56:24  chelliott: ineiros doesn't want non-purchasers on the server.
19:56:29  chelliott: So that will never, ever happen.
19:56:39  elliott: not talking to u
19:56:47  chelliott, what elliott said is true here
19:56:51  Vorpal: ahh ok
19:57:05  coppro, you are right I guess.
19:57:06  Vorpal: but if someone were to set up a server, they could intercept it like that, right?
19:57:16  chelliott, I don't see why you need to do that
19:57:16  They could just use a mod that disables it ...
19:57:18  *shrug*
19:57:28  Vorpal: so that people without a bought mc can also play
19:57:37  chelliott, ... read again please :P
19:57:48  chelliott, and then read what elliott just said
19:57:52  Vorpal: i'm sorry, i'm a bit lost
19:58:03  oh, sorry, i mostly don't read what elliott says
19:58:04  chelliott, no need to intercept. Just mod.
19:58:10  gotcha
19:58:23   oh, sorry, i mostly don't read what elliott says <-- sounds like a good idea in fact.
19:58:30  Vorpal: BTW, the S3 downloads don't work; you need to log in once before you can play.
19:58:43  elliott, oh? didn't they work before?
19:58:47  Vorpal: we should set up a mega secret server then!
19:58:48  What?
19:59:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:59:22  elliott, you said they worked before? Anyway I believe faking a login is rather trivial.
19:59:32  I looked at the decompiled launcher
19:59:33  Vorpal, the enemy of your enemy is not your friend here.
19:59:46  you could just mod it.
19:59:48  Phantom_Hoover, hm?
19:59:50  Getting rid of cheater is in everyone's interest.
19:59:54  Phantom_Hoover, when did I claim it was.
20:00:08  Vorpal, do not engage with him. At all.
20:00:21  Phantom_Hoover, well then, why not ask a channel op about him?
20:01:22  he manages to avoid outright trolling enough of the time that he goes under the radar.
20:01:29  also, ops never do anything apart from kick shutup
20:01:47  elliott, they kickbanned spambots I know :P
20:02:08  oh wait, that is what you said
20:02:09  sorry
20:02:14  Phantom_Hoover, hm. The something for nothing thing applies to you too
20:02:31  What?
20:02:53  "Someone I don't like is saying these things, therefore the fact that they can reasonably demonstrate that the actions they recommend are in the channel's best interest are things I should NOT do, because I must prove that I am at least as childish as the people I call that!"
20:03:01  You're well on your way, keep up the good work.
20:03:05  Phantom_Hoover, see scrollback around last like coppro spoke
20:03:54  "therefore the fact that they can reasonably demonstrate that the actions they recommend are in the channel's best interest" <-- so demonstrate it
20:04:44  elliott, what I'm saying here is closer to "I don't trust your judgement.
20:04:46  "
20:04:59  cheater has repeatedly demonstrated that not only does he have no interest or knowledge of esolangs,
20:05:18  but he has repeatedly acted superior and idiotic to many people in this channel on many, many occasions, while having contributed not one iota of positive discussion to it.
20:05:38  That he is an idiot can be trivially verified by reading the logs; that he annoys people who are not can be verified the same.
20:05:51  All he does is waste people's time.
20:06:13  fair enough on those points.
20:06:18  chelliott: you should change your name back then
20:06:42  As such, you should ignore him and starve him of the attention he so desperately craves.
20:07:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:07:19  Brawndo! It's got what plants crave!
20:08:04  elliott: i have demonstrated i have no interest in knowing esolangs?
20:08:13  elliott: have you been drinking cillit bang again?
20:08:31  You haven't really talked about esolangs once (you talked about Clue once, but then you started spinning some bullshit about it being a good business idea to oklopol or something).
20:08:41  You also have no wiki presence
20:08:41  elliott: you're the kid here talking about computer games and ubuntu and mac laptops all the time
20:08:46  *presence.
20:08:47  yeah yeah
20:08:57  okay so no one is on topic very much
20:08:57  chelliott: I have repeatedly demonstrated that I have an interest in and knowledge of esolangs in the past.
20:08:58  we've got another one of elliott's attacks, everyone take cover
20:08:59  You have not.
20:09:06  can we please have the restraining jacket
20:09:08  Oh, fuck off.
20:09:15  You are an utter twat.
20:09:21  elliott: you forgot to run out and slam the door.
20:09:32  FFS, I am putting him on ignore. elliott, I will put you on ignore as well if you keep on engaging with him.
20:09:34  and scream "no one understands me"
20:09:43  elliott, and you are socially incompetent
20:09:46  "He's on to me, I'd better try and change the topic by being an idiot!"
20:09:54  coppro: why don't you change you rname back?
20:09:58  chelliott: I mean
20:10:00  Vorpal: OK, where the fuck did you get that from?
20:10:06  j-invariant: oh right, well, i forgot about it
20:10:18  elliott, from observing your general behaviour towards me and coppro for example.
20:10:20  j-invariant: then i read your comment, and then i read elliott's mental diarrhea, and had to reply to that first
20:10:21  Who's chelliott?
20:10:27  okay
20:10:28 -!- chelliott has changed nick to cheater777.
20:10:32  SgeoN1, cheater. Do not talk to him.
20:10:39  there you go j-invariant
20:10:39  now I hope you can stop fighting because I think it's upsetting elliot
20:10:48  I'm not upset.
20:10:49  elliott, coppro is reasonably intelligent and he is interested in esolangs afaik
20:10:53  j-invariant: you've mixed up cause and effect
20:10:56  Can I not yell at someone without it being construed as upset?
20:11:02  Vorpal: coppro is the one who has me on ignore.
20:11:06  I do not have him on ignore.
20:11:13  Vorpal: coppro != cheater777
20:11:14  :-)
20:11:17  I have been rude to him lately because he keeps being a jerk mentioning how I'm on ignore all the time.
20:11:21  cheater777, indeed, did I claim so?
20:11:21  How do I get RSS feeds on Chrome?
20:11:38  Vorpal: just saying, it's a common typo.
20:11:54  no. And now you are being annoying.
20:12:02  My toes hurt
20:12:18  Phantom_Hoover: i think if you go to a page which has an rss feed you get an icon on the address bar... but i hadn't used chrome in ages now
20:12:19  elliott, well how comes he ignored you?
20:12:33  Vorpal: Ask him.
20:12:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:12:37  elliott, I seem to remember there was indeed a very good reason
20:12:39  ^^distracting everyone from the war so they can talk about my liveblkgging nonsense
20:12:46  Vorpal: i'm not being annoying, i just thought you were talking about me and made a typo, just like j-invariant a couple minutes earlier. what's so annoying about that?
20:12:55  elliott, I was there, it was a rhetorical question.
20:13:06  Vorpal: Enjoy your regular whine-about-elliott rant alone.
20:13:18  SgeoN1, as a sign of how desperate I am, please start liveblogging to your full capacity.
20:13:30  elliott, oh? I don't really enjoy this discussion. And it is no rant.
20:13:48  SgeoN1, LIVEBLOG
20:13:51  I'm on my second to.last bus
20:14:17  I'm upset that I didn't see her today, butthrilldd for tomorrow
20:14:25  elliott, still if you can't be decent towards me, then don't expect me to listen to your pleas
20:14:34  My hands are to cold to.type properly in this phone
20:14:52  SgeoN1, can't you type with gloves on?
20:15:02  SgeoN1 is actually dying of cold somewhere in the frigid wastes of New York.
20:15:16  Vorpal, the. Us is warm, but my hands are still stiff
20:15:39  The US is warm indeed.
20:15:44  Yes. The Us
20:15:47  SgeoN1, yes I'm sure parts of US is warm. Like Hawaii. But I suspect Alaska is rather cold.
20:15:55  I wonder what the average temperature is
20:16:38  Maybe tomorrow I'll see her for more than the 1.5 hours I thought I'd see her today
20:16:39  okokokokokokokokokoko
20:16:40  okokokokokokoko
20:16:43  okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:16:44  okokokokoko
20:16:46  okokokokokokokokokoko
20:16:49  is my 2 cents
20:16:49  oko!
20:17:02  hope i didn't interrupt anything important
20:17:13  oklopol, indeed you didn't
20:17:15  that would be embarrassing
20:17:21  okay good
20:18:25  My toes ads still in pain
20:18:54  every period, when courses start, i have this really hard time doing homework because i'm afraid i just can't do it anymore
20:19:02  what if i've gotten old, and can't math anymore
20:19:10  oklopol, things got so bad I had to get Sgeo to liveblog.
20:19:28  oklopol: they give you homework that actualyl requires thinking? wow
20:19:30  oklopol, I doubt that. How old are you?
20:20:04  i'm err
20:20:07  fuck do i know
20:20:08  :D
20:20:11  erm
20:20:11  20
20:20:15  or 21
20:20:21  fuck...
20:20:22  oklopol, it is very unlikely to happen until you are at least 40 I bet. And even then unlikely for many years
20:20:23  let me calculate
20:20:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:20:36  2011 - 1989, so that means i turn 22 this year
20:20:39  oklopol, anyway if you are around 20-25 then you are not getting too old yet
20:20:41  so i'm 21
20:20:58  oklopol, hey we are equally old (excluding month and day I guess)
20:21:01  okay, but what if i've just gotten totally rusty at math
20:21:12  I'm same age
20:21:14  oklopol, did you just finish a course with math?
20:21:15  when do you turn 22?
20:21:19  oklopol, get some WD-40 on those brain cells.
20:21:22  May
20:21:23  oklopol, December
20:21:24  Vorpal: yes, i had an exam on monday
20:21:34  oklopol: sweet 22!
20:21:36  oklopol, then you are unlikely to be rusty already
20:21:40  SgeoN1, yes, but you have allowed your development to be retarded to the extent that you are effectively 14.
20:21:46  oklopol, a year without math, then maybe
20:22:03  Phantom_Hoover, be fair. 15
20:22:09  oklopol, have a little croft in some hinterlands.
20:22:12  does anyone know how to make xchat ignore mentions of a name?
20:22:30  Phantom_Hoover: As an ex-14-year-old, I take offence.
20:22:31  elliott, you could use the python or perl scripting plugin
20:22:33 * Phantom_Hoover discovers that "hinterland" does not actually mean what he thought it meant.
20:22:49  Phantom_Hoover, what did you think it meant?
20:22:53  elliott, that's clearly because you are an immature and stupid 15-year-old.
20:22:55  hunter2land
20:22:59  Phantom_Hoover: INDEED
20:23:03  And I smell funny too.
20:23:22  You have no understanding of the deeper meaning of things, unlike those of us who are fortunate enough to have the wisdom of age.
20:23:25  elliott is also homo and a nigger
20:23:30  yes
20:23:34  and a fag no less
20:23:35  a homo fag
20:23:39  additionally a kike
20:23:40  oklopol, OK, a croft in the highlands.
20:24:09  Phantom_Hoover, so what did you think "hinterland" meant?
20:24:27  backland
20:24:28  "Middle of nowhere".
20:24:59  Phantom_Hoover, hm I thought that too. In a somewhat negative sense.
20:25:12  Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean?
20:25:17  i heard elliott programs in php
20:25:20  what do you mean have one
20:25:30  Phantom_Hoover, huh: "The hinterland is the land or district behind the borders of a coast or river. Specifically, by the doctrine of the hinterland, the word is applied to the inland region lying behind a port, claimed by the state that owns the coast. ..."
20:25:33  oklopol, get one.
20:25:35  brb ->
20:25:38  maybe i will
20:25:38  Grow stuff. Eat it.
20:25:46  mmm, food
20:26:19  Finland is, admittedly, not the standard location for crofting, but I am assuming that it's sufficiently similar to the Highlands to be used for the purpose.
20:27:01   You have no understanding of the deeper meaning of things, unlike those of us who are fortunate enough to have the wisdom of age. <-- wait, aren't you younger than elliott even?
20:27:12  Vorpal, where did you get that idea from?
20:27:17  Phantom_Hoover, from elliott iirc.
20:27:21  I am far older and more mature than elliott.
20:27:30  Phantom_Hoover, more mature, I don't dispute that
20:27:35  Clearly that lie is just his vast immaturity showing through.
20:27:38  Phantom_Hoover must be at least 20
20:27:45  might even be 23
20:27:45  hm
20:27:56  HOW OLD ARE YOU PH
20:28:03  oklopol, recommended reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crofting
20:28:04  oklopol, no I don't think so. Could be older than elliott yes.
20:28:48  well yeah maybe closer to 20
20:28:58  oklopol, more like 16-20
20:29:02  hmmhmm
20:29:07  ph: age?
20:29:14  Phantom_Hoover, but yeah I thought elliott said you were 12 or 13?
20:29:15  15^W16.
20:29:30  the reason for my guess was the similarity to pikhq
20:29:36  i don't know where i get that from
20:29:47  ph is actually 7
20:29:53  otherwise i might've guessed he's overcompensating for his age
20:29:54  Vorpal, there was a complicated accident with a relativistic spaceship and I aged 3 years.
20:30:09  by being careful about what he says
20:30:10  like me
20:30:34  i actually think a penis hours about what i'm gonna say before hand
20:30:54  It was pretty obvious that I was less than 18, what with me mentioning school all the time
20:31:11  oh i don't actually listen to the *content*
20:31:19  Phantom_Hoover, ah
20:31:20  i just read the tone of voice of all you
20:31:23  ppl
20:31:35  oklopol, tone of voice over IRC? :D
20:31:50  yeah you know, punctuation
20:31:57  ah
20:32:07  Reminds me of that Pratchett character who pronounced brackets.
20:32:21  that's all i see, dots and uppercase vs lowercase
20:32:40  oklopol, http://www.crofting.org/
20:32:46  Phantom_Hoover, hm yes. What was his name? And which book was it?
20:32:48  theory: complaints about immaturity are _always_ hypocritical.  no exceptions.
20:32:49  Clearly you must start the Finnish crofting foundation.
20:33:06  Vorpal, Kirsty from the Johnny Maxwell series.
20:33:06  maturity is a silly concept
20:33:15  oklopol, not in cheese!
20:33:20  even when said as joke.
20:33:21  Phantom_Hoover, oh I thought it happened in Discworld too?
20:33:25  *a joke.
20:33:50  Phantom_Hoover, some lawyer or something? Probably wee free men or such?
20:33:51  note: above comment is hypocritical.
20:34:17  ais523: I got topographic sorting of changes working, at least
20:34:40  elliott: topographic sorting is trivial, please try to grow up.
20:34:48  oklopol: xD
20:34:57  i didn't actually impl the topographic sorting, just got it working on this structure :p
20:34:57  or use a fucking php function script kiddo
20:35:06  lol@ implication that php has tsort
20:35:09  :D
20:35:13  too complicated to implement!
20:35:16  indeed
20:35:19  oerjan: http://sprunge.us/cGcj pretty this please
20:35:37  wish haskell let me do "f x x" for "f x x' | x == x'" :(
20:35:42  i haven't checked this, but i imagine from the millions of php functions, you can actually never find any algorithms you need for your basic stuff
20:35:44  elliott: yeah same
20:36:11  unless you're doing something stupid like web stuff
20:36:30  elliott: oklotalk lets you do that
20:36:54  oklopol: :D
20:36:59  oklopol: impl http://sprunge.us/cGcj in oklotalk please
20:37:23  elliott, I want to know how Scapegoat works. Please give me basic direction on where to look for Git help.
20:37:36  Phantom_Hoover: i dunno, ask ais523
20:37:39  he's good at answers
20:38:13  ais523, where do I look for Git help?
20:38:15  so when where the three differen types of tree introduced?
20:38:18  is that very recent?
20:38:22  j-invariant, yesterday.
20:38:26  ah!!
20:38:38  then the minecraft world is not all generated when you start a new game
20:38:49  Of course not.
20:38:55  j-invariant: Considering it's practically infinite, of course not :P
20:38:56  Did you seriously think it was?
20:39:01  It's LAZILY EVALUATED.
20:39:10  I thought it wasn't: This proves it
20:39:15  Except that sometimes the function changes half-way through evaluation and you get biome discontinuities!
20:39:20  j-invariant: It has been proved much earlier.
20:39:26  j-invariant: ALSO, all trees regenerated with the update.
20:39:26  by someone else
20:39:33  Normally you wouldn't see the new type.
20:39:37  Until venturing out into new terrain.
20:39:43  I did go to new terrain
20:40:22  is "Combinatorial Algorithms" any good? (Donald Knuth)
20:40:46  it's knuth so probably?
20:40:49  heh
20:41:54  # 7.9. Herculean tasks (aka NP-hard problems)
20:41:56  sounds good
20:43:18  Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw NOTHIN' TO REPORT TODAY JUUUUUUUD
20:44:24  WTF lol
20:44:47  elliott, I already linked to that.
20:45:04  Well, your mother.
20:45:19  http://i.imgur.com/eS9fx.jpg BEST EVER
20:45:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:45:40  Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I will never forgive Jeb for taking up bluestone for lapis POOPLI.
20:46:12  "Lapis lazuli" is objectively the coolest name for anything ever.
20:46:23  "I want there to be some secret conspiracy where you can make a portal out of Lapis Lazuli blocks and get into heaven."
20:46:33  Phantom_Hoover: Heaven portals. Fuckin' DISCUSS.
20:46:55  elliott, when you go there, there's a Jesus mob.
20:47:05  And it's all made of cloudstone.
20:47:05  xD
20:47:11  Cloudstone YES
20:47:20  Phantom_Hoover: Sand falls, but cloudstone RISES.
20:47:30  You have to put stuff above it to stop it going above level 127 and evaporating.
20:47:34  (Canon: It becomes cloud.)
20:47:50  Phantom_Hoover: Putting cloudstone below sand makes an explosion, naturally.
20:47:54  Phantom_Hoover: (Or just swaps them.)
20:48:22  um
20:48:29  Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f20n0/efficiency_of_making_coal_instead_of_mining_coal/
20:48:29  help :(
20:48:30  elliott:
20:48:32  j-invariant: ?
20:49:19  elliott: the CPU level for minecraft is a whole load of .dat files, but in ~/.minecraft/saves it's all categorized into folders
20:49:26  maybe it's a version mismatch
20:49:42  j-invariant: you have to put it in a world directory
20:49:43  obviously
20:49:45  World[12345]
20:49:49  use an unused one
20:49:50  obviously
20:50:07  eah but World1 has folders like 0,1,1c etc
20:50:09  j-invariant: or do you mean the 0/ 1/ 1c/ etc. folders?
20:50:12  yeah
20:50:15  j-invariant: put the dat files in anyway, i think it'll auto-convert
20:50:16  when you load it
20:50:23  okay ill try it
20:52:28  ais523: I have individual change application and changeset application, what do you suggest I add next? I already have merging, right? since it's based into change application
20:52:42  elliott: you might want some more @'s in apply to share the tuples from the original line.  also .Set.map needs a space after the .
20:53:13  oerjan: no, it doesn't, actually
20:53:17  but good catch, it should have one
20:53:27  and yeah, OK, I'll add more @s
20:53:29  still, it's quite ugly :(
20:53:33  "needs" in the pretty sense here
20:54:31  elliott, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u350uod6Xzo
20:54:35  well alas i don't know how to solve your ugly =='s problem
20:54:41  Arrow trap, but on FIRE.
20:55:16  so umm, server hasn't been updated or anything?
20:55:16  oerjan: http://sprunge.us/HIHO it's better now, thanks, but apply is still pretty ugly
20:55:26  oklopol: indeed
20:55:36  oerjan: the ==s aren't even the ugliest part, probably
20:55:37  okay, just heard something about some new stuff
20:55:51  oerjan: it's just that every case is very very similar
20:55:58  oerjan: and it irritates me that i can't fix the duplication
20:56:16  Phantom_Hoover: Dear god. Do they ... hurt more like that?
20:56:21  No.
20:56:30  There's no functional difference.
20:56:34  Phantom_Hoover: I'm still scared. Especially because of the door opening.
20:56:44  It's like, HI I NOTICED YOU, SO TAKE A LOOK AT HELL.
20:56:51  lol
20:57:12  @hoogle foldrM
20:57:13  Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
20:57:18  wow it exists, yay
20:57:34  @hoogle (a->b-> m b) -> b -> [a] -> m b
20:57:35  Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
20:57:35  Control.Monad zipWithM_ :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m c) -> [a] -> [b] -> m ()
20:57:35  Control.Monad foldM :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> [b] -> m a
20:58:41  oerjan: is my ordering function inefficient? I use the changes themselves as the keys
20:58:43  which seems wonky
20:58:50  bah this is crap
20:58:55  I can#t load the CPU level
20:59:30  at least I managed not to destroy my own saved game
21:00:13  > zip [0..] [1,2,3,4]
21:00:15    [(0,1),(1,2),(2,3),(3,4)]
21:00:21  i'll use that for the keys i guess
21:03:47 * Sgeo wonders if anyone plays in WorldForge
21:04:13  oerjan: ugh, I can't use integers as the keys, because deps returns [Change]
21:04:20  and changes don't know about their list indices obviously
21:04:54  http://worldforge.org/dev/metaserver
21:05:02  There's 21 clients on one of the servers
21:06:58  brb
21:07:00  elliott: i'm not one to ask about efficiency optimization
21:07:36  Mushrooms cannot be grown?
21:07:43  that sucks I was going to grow some
21:08:19  sure they can
21:08:32  elliott: interesting i think most of your apply guards are equivalent to deps c `isPrefixOf` map fst line
21:09:59  *lines
21:12:40  copumpkin: i don't think so, i just happened to read a reddit mc thread in which allowing mushroom farming was suggested
21:12:59  (browsing r/all)
21:13:29  oh
21:14:48  it was pointed out that allowing this would make some other foods essentially useless
21:22:38  I wish there was a way to sleep
21:22:54  Minecraft: More than 500 sold <-- WTF???
21:23:06  I thought it would be in the trillions by now
21:24:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:24:26  http://omnium-gatherum.appspot.com/pages/tile.html
21:24:30  do you think this is trivial?
21:24:53  or easy
21:25:15  62% packet loss to ineiros :/
21:25:30  that seems to be what cause the lag in general
21:25:51  oklopol, lemme guess, it's an open problem.
21:27:02  :D
21:27:13  i think it's periodic, although i already closed my solution
21:28:20  actually took me quite a while because i figured it's aperiodic
21:28:28  because of "convince yourself"
21:29:27  also what's the smallest period you can get
21:29:33  i think i have the smallest possible
21:29:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:35:46  oklopol: I think I did it
21:37:37   elliott: interesting i think most of your apply guards are equivalent to deps c `isPrefixOf` map fst line
21:37:40  oerjan: oh that's intriguing
21:37:55   Minecraft: More than 500 sold <-- WTF???
21:37:58  j-invariant: it's 1 million
21:37:59  as of lately
21:38:35  oerjan: do you think abusing that would be evil? :)
21:38:49  oerjan: the thing is that i'd have to pattern-match anyway, so it would just be weird... but i could do it as a subfunction
21:39:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:39:38 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:39:56  DIE SGEO_ DIE
21:40:27  oerjan: btw trying to replace or delete SOF/EOF should also be disallowed, but
21:44:09  j-invariant: periodic? what period?
21:44:47  oerjan: omg, it's insanely nice
21:44:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:45:03  and how many of each block do you use
21:45:12  in a repeating pattern
21:45:21  oerjan: http://sprunge.us/NKJI
21:45:31  oerjan: Now you tell me why that's incorrect :P
21:45:53  hm that erroneously accepts SOF/EOF as a change but whatever
21:46:15  actually given the symmetry of the blocs, neither of those tells me much
21:46:34  except maybe that great minds think alike
21:46:39  and me as well
21:47:23  *blocks
21:49:01 * Phantom_Hoover vaguely remembers reading somewhere that Red Dwarf survived in the BBC because the director general thought it was mocking SF, but can't remember where he heard it.
21:49:49  ah well it's broken so far
21:51:07  oerjan: so hey, what structures are Changes and [Line]s :D
21:51:09  are they FUNCTORS
21:51:57  i rely on oerjan to do all my thinking for me
21:52:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:52:30  Phantom_Hoover: The BBC is so strange.
21:52:57  elliott, the times fit too, since it was airing while Doctor Who was being cancelled.
21:55:21  elliott: Functors in String, probably
21:55:33  oerjan: boring!
21:55:44  oerjan: are they APPLICATIVE functors?!!?!!!!!
21:55:53  Hey the toaster changed shape by series 4!
21:56:04  SUCH A VIOLATION OF CONTINUITY CANNOT BE TOLERATED
21:56:23  oklopol: it has period 3 horizontally and period 4 vertically (with a shift of 1 block horizontally)
21:56:55  I wonder if there is a tiling with rotational symmetry
21:56:56  elliott: sounds awkward
21:57:14  oerjan: i just want to be a pseudomathematician and reek, like all haskellers are known to do
21:57:23  oerjan: sorry i forgot: also i want to be part of a cargo cult
21:57:26  so please give me structures that it is
21:57:30  even if i have to break the laws of those structures
21:57:41  elliott: someone said "cargomorphism" in #haskell and got banned
21:57:54  j-invariant: are you sure they were banned for _just_ that :p
21:58:01  well not just that
21:58:06  but it was the last straw on the camels back
21:58:13  j-invariant: was it that guy talking about a basic program
21:58:15  with line numbers!
21:58:18  no
21:58:19  and clearly i can't do it simply in haskell
21:58:20  ah
21:58:33  elliott: you probably want the Changeset case to be before the general one.  could also put an SOF test there i think
21:58:37  #haskell used to be such a nice channel, but haskell's recent surge in popularity hasn't done it good :(
21:58:40  oerjan: yeah i did :P
21:59:15  :t isInfixOf
21:59:16  forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool
21:59:23  :t elem
21:59:24  forall a. (Eq a) => a -> [a] -> Bool
21:59:34  @pl (\c -> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c))
21:59:34  ap ((||) . elem SOF . deps) (elem EOF . deps)
21:59:37  ugh
21:59:47  @pl (\c -> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c)) c
21:59:48  elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c)
21:59:52  xD
21:59:58 -!- Ahoalton has joined.
22:01:08  elliott: strictly speaking SOF and EOF shouldn't be allowed in the deps of a Change, should they?
22:01:19  heh someone on MO posted "question which, I suppose, is as easy as abc for an expert"
22:01:21  oerjan: (Insert "hello" SOF EOF)
22:01:28  oerjan: that inserts the line "hello" into the empty file
22:01:30  oh
22:01:40  oerjan: remember that it's blame-based: you insert things in-between _changes_
22:01:44  elliott: so Insert is an exception...
22:01:44  and a line is identified by the change that created it
22:01:54  oerjan: oh... indeed...
22:02:06  oerjan: I have a feeling this SOF/EOF thing is crufty and could be improved, but ais at least hasn't thought of anything better
22:02:25  j-invariant: link?
22:02:28  j-invariant: i have period (4, 1)
22:02:35  ohh
22:02:46  yeah okay you explained both periods
22:03:07  i just gave the bigger one, i think we have the same one then
22:03:19  oklopol: it may be the smallest tiling then
22:03:31  elliott: http://mathoverflow.net/questions/52116/quadratic-forms-without-common-zeroes
22:04:15  uhh, what is this chan
22:04:20  and how did I wind up here?
22:04:22  what's a quadratic form :P
22:04:33  somehow i feel like i should remember the def
22:04:44  oklopol: linear combination of squares
22:04:45  Ahoalton: esoteric programming languages.  except we're almost never on topic
22:04:56  I should invent an esoteric programming language
22:05:01  Ahoalton: spiritualism, mysticism, and magick! note: lies
22:05:11  we're actually a figment of your imagination
22:05:26  Ahoalton: otherwise, anything weird from programming or sometimes math
22:06:01  we're basically one big family that's constantly fighting and wishing certain members would die
22:06:06  having a constant christmas reunion
22:06:07  forever
22:06:13  and pretending to like each other
22:06:14  haha
22:06:24  elliott: hey we're not _that_ bad
22:06:24  :D
22:06:35  oerjan: well we wouldn't be, if only Vorpal choked on his own vomit!
22:06:37  what are esoteric programming languages?
22:06:45  I'll check teh wiki
22:06:51  Ahoalton: ones that you wouldn't want to actually, you know, use
22:07:22  j-invariant: quadratic form on F^5 means you have a quadratic form in 5 variables?
22:07:27  I like wolfram mathematica
22:07:35  anyone used the software?
22:07:56  Ahoalton: mathematica is the buggiest, slowest piece of rubbish ever
22:08:09  i used to use it when i had integration in my courses
22:08:36  yes
22:08:41  but i don't need that shit anymore so i don't really use mathematica either
22:08:49  j-invariant: i don't think that would be abc for an expert
22:08:54  Ahoalton: I write my own
22:09:08  i may be wrong ofc, but that seems like a nontrivial prob
22:09:23  Ahoalton: we have a guy in here that wolfram gave $25,000 to and even he hates mathematica :D
22:09:28  oklopol: it's a (consequence of a) really neat theorem
22:09:35  which version elliott it got better
22:09:42  Ahoalton: no it didn't, this was with 7
22:09:44  oklopol: The Chevally-Warning thing, the proof is pretty easy
22:09:50  oh whoops lol
22:09:50  oklopol: (I mean to read... not to come up with)
22:09:57  Ahoalton: i'm referring to the winner of http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html who is ais523 in here
22:10:09  j-invariant: i thought that was a *warning* for when he starts proving the thing :D
22:10:10  xD
22:10:13  lol
22:10:17  Ahoalton: warning, elliott is the resident channel cynic
22:10:19  Ahoalton: the wolfram guys gave him some mathematica code that reimplemented his submitted Perl, and it made mathematica crash, as in a segfault
22:10:31  oerjan: hey now, the fact that mathematica sucks is well-known :)
22:10:33  although some others seem to be converting
22:10:46  elliott: i'm speaking generally here
22:10:59  j-invariant: i guess i just don't know anything about multivariate stuff
22:11:02  ørjan
22:11:03  Ahoalton: warning, oerjan is the resident channel superstitious guy
22:11:04  lemme check proof
22:11:08  oerjan: speaking generally!
22:11:17  oklopol: http://math.uga.edu/~pete/4400ChevalleyWarning.pdf
22:11:17  elliott: O KAY
22:11:23  oerjan: >:D
22:11:34  oklopol: and the EGZ theorem is super cool
22:12:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:12:05  j-variant what is?
22:12:13  what is ?
22:12:20  EGZ thm
22:12:21  I used to write down maths homework half the time in LaTeX, the other half in a Mathematica notebook. It wasn't that bad for that, and at least you had it open for checking things.
22:12:24  j-invariant: what IS
22:12:28  is it in that paper?
22:12:31  elliott: :D
22:12:37  quintopia: yes
22:12:37  j-invariant: answer his question!
22:12:40  ah
22:12:42  what *is*
22:12:43  "what is?" "yes"
22:12:49  it all makes sense now
22:12:57 * elliott achieves nirvana
22:13:11  perhaps dropping my pronouns around you people is a bad idea
22:13:19  Ahoalton: you're on DIALUP?
22:13:23  are you a spane or something
22:13:25  sorry for being lazy but i am@typing on my phone so...
22:13:27  Ahoalton: my condolences
22:13:37  also i found out i can do it with gloves on
22:13:45  you mean rub your penis
22:14:07  no
22:14:11  the phone thing?
22:14:23  elliott: Maybe Level3 just already ran out of IP addresses and started reusing dialup-named ones.
22:14:27  i need both hands wide open to rub my penis
22:14:38  fizzie: :D
22:14:39  quintopia: If you have a collection of n different numbers, there is a subset of size <= 2n which sums to 0 (mod n)
22:14:49  quintopia: I need my arms
22:14:55  really inconvenient
22:15:06  actually <
22:15:11  j-invariant: isn't that a bit too much on the safe side?
22:15:12  so hey oerjan change the model so that insert isn't a special case :
22:15:16  oklopol: hm?
22:15:24  how do you know my connection elliott
22:15:27  (It's in their old 4.0.0.0/8 net, so you can't really tell much from the address.)
22:15:28  don't you just need n
22:15:30  j-invariant: mdaning multiset?
22:15:32  Ahoalton: it's in your /whoi
22:15:33  s
22:15:33  numbers
22:15:38  * [Ahoalton] (IceChat09@dialup-4.249.228.55.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net): The Chat Cool People Use
22:15:39  oklopol: oops! I meant n/2
22:15:41  not 2n
22:15:48  oh
22:15:52  makes more sense
22:15:57  quintopia: yeah sorry multiset
22:16:05  oh n/3
22:16:09  *n/2
22:16:12  oh right, well it works well
22:16:13  enough
22:16:20  so umm how about 1 n/2 times
22:16:22  no it really doesn't
22:16:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:16:24  if it's a multiset
22:16:27  unless you like, use gopher
22:16:30  oh the subset is
22:16:31  a multiset
22:16:32  for what I do it does
22:16:39  Ahoalton: use gopher?
22:16:39  I can do everything but watch videos
22:16:44  oklopol: you need n different numbers in the multiset
22:16:45  what the hell is gopher
22:16:46  read man
22:16:58  Ahoalton: like the web except usable on dialup and also useless
22:17:17  but umm
22:17:21  uhh, no I use firefox and the normal internet with noscript and adblock
22:17:25  makes things faster
22:17:26  so just take any number n times?
22:17:34  can someone state the problem without errors?
22:17:35  Ahoalton: right, so loading google.com prolly only takes you about 4 minutes?
22:17:47  and I can even torrent, if not slowly a
22:17:53  and google isn't slow
22:18:19  torrent??? like what
22:18:21  Google's rather bandwith-optimized, for obvious reasons.
22:18:23  i can't imagine torrenting anything on dialup
22:18:23  oklopol: i assume it is in the linked paper
22:18:25  maybe like
22:18:26  10 jpegs
22:18:32  that could be torrentable
22:18:54  oerjan: hey i can do a HACK
22:18:58  oerjan: | dps == [SOF} || dps == [EOF]
22:19:02  oerjan: since non-Insert deps lists are only one long
22:19:03  *]
22:19:04  :DDDDD
22:19:09  ya'll are annoying,
22:19:10  bye
22:19:10  elliott: they don't call them torrents.
22:19:12 -!- Ahoalton has left (?).
22:19:18  ever heard of "bittrickle"?
22:19:22  yay, another newbie scared away
22:19:29  at least that one didn't know what esolangs are
22:19:37  quintopia: bitdrip
22:20:23  what was he even asking for?
22:20:37  quintopia: nothing
22:20:41  okay so
22:20:41  he just came in and then asked how the hell he got here
22:20:44  and then defended mathematica
22:20:46  Anyway, dialup's not *that* slow, I think I used to get something like 30-40 kbps from the theoretically-56k connection.
22:20:46  there was no n/2 i suppose
22:20:47  and asked what esolangs are
22:20:51  and USED DIALUP
22:21:01  elliott: And then you ANNOYED him away.
22:21:12  fizzie: he said YA'LL, not ELLIOTT
22:21:18  i blame quintopia personally
22:21:27  Hmm... Hash function that blows up if you feed 65536YiB to it in one message... Meh.
22:21:31  It was the non-royal ya'll, meaning "you", in this particular case "just you".
22:21:35  yes it was definitely my fault
22:21:36  Ilari: Oh no, how horrible :P
22:21:40  isn't it always
22:21:49 * quintopia scurries away
22:21:51  fizzie: The non-royal ya'll... the most USELESS WORD EVER
22:22:03  The only purpose of y'all existing is to be a plural you :P
22:22:39  if all y'all think that, elliott
22:22:41  ya'll is short for "ya will" i.e. "you will"
22:22:49  :D
22:22:58  Deewiant: True, I will indeed are annoying at some point.
22:23:44  22:24 < oerjan> if all y'all think that, elliott
22:23:46  oops
22:23:47  y'all yell a lot
22:23:51  Ilari: That compares favorably to SHA-1/SHA-2, which both have a maximum message length of 2^64-1 bits, i.e. 2 EiB (minus one bit).
22:23:57  j-invariant: STOP COPYING OUR MESSAGES
22:24:22  (Well, SHA-256 variant of SHA-2; SHA-512 has 2^128-1 bits.)
22:24:23  IT'S INFRINGEDEMENT
22:24:24  (although it is certainly obvious floor(n/2) works)
22:25:14  oerjan: hey why isn't there a name for foldr . reverse (modulo making that correct)
22:25:32  elliott: foldl
22:25:38  oerjan: i.e. if i have a list of changes [a,b,c,d] and a must come before b, b must come before c, etc., then the right thing is "foldrM apply xs (reverse listOfChanges)"
22:25:41  j-invariant: er not really?
22:26:00  is it?
22:26:00  hm
22:26:07  who knows
22:26:26  > foldl (flip f) end [a,b,c,d]
22:26:28    Not in scope: `end'
22:26:31  > foldl (flip f) x [a,b,c,d]
22:26:34    f d (f c (f b (f a x)))
22:26:39  :DDD
22:26:44  j-invariant: is n/2 optimal?
22:26:57  for distinct numbers
22:26:59  oklopol: well the theorem says you have 2n-1 things, and there is a subsequence of size at most n
22:27:13  oklopol: if it's optimal it will be optimal on oen of the prime numbers
22:27:19  I haven't checked myself
22:27:58  elliott: looks like one of the rare possible uses for foldl rather than foldl'
22:28:05  :t foldl
22:28:06  :t foldl'
22:28:06  forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
22:28:07  forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
22:28:11  oerjan: hm why
22:28:20  oerjan: i guess it might be marginally more efficient
22:28:22  elliott: non-strictness
22:28:25  oerjan: if a change overwrites another change?
22:28:31  oerjan: ?
22:28:46  elliott: oh well then maybe you want foldl' anyhow
22:28:53  or not...
22:28:55  oerjan: well i just wonder why you think foldl would help
22:28:58  vs foldl'
22:29:16  elliott: well i mean for that foldr ... . reverse thing in general
22:29:26  ah
22:29:30  Not to mention that hashing even a 1PiB in single message would take a fast computer with a fast hash algorithm about 24 days...
22:29:34  oerjan: foldl' just makes me feel bad in general
22:29:38  oerjan: actually so does foldl
22:29:43  it just seems wrong
22:29:52  oerjan: note that in this case it's _actually_ foldM
22:29:55  oerjan: because applies can fail
22:30:07  oerjan: so I think it's already the equivalent of foldl'
22:30:09  @src foldM
22:30:09  foldM _ a []     = return a
22:30:10  foldM f a (x:xs) = f a x >>= \fax -> foldM f fax xs
22:30:18  lol @ fax as arg nam
22:30:18  e
22:30:20  *name
22:30:36  elliott, in your opinion, does making a language easier to implement make it worth crippling the language?
22:30:47  Sgeo: No. Never.
22:30:50  Erm, by easier, I think he means nicer
22:30:57  Sgeo, ...why on earth would that be worthwhile.
22:31:02  Sgeo: Well, unless it's to make a theoretical model.
22:31:06  Sgeo: Who, what language, and what crippling?
22:31:09  You want a language to use, not to stare at the interpreter.
22:31:16  OK, so esolangs exempt.
22:31:22  http://raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/atomo/today.txt
22:31:30 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:31:38  Sgeo: Another exception: Toy languages like Atomo.
22:31:41  But most implemented esolangs *are* an interpreter.
22:31:57  Sgeo: i.e., if you're just exploring the design space, you can do whatever.
22:32:03  And generally implementation ease wins out there.
22:32:12  Incidentally, the word "isoblorphism"
22:32:26  *turned up in my head, and I want to know what it's supposed to mean.
22:32:34  Am I misinterpreting what he's saying?
22:32:35  elliott: hm yeah it's foldl' except in the rare case where you can deduce a Nothing as the result from only the outer part of it
22:32:48  Sgeo: I don't know, I don't know Atomo.
22:32:52  Sgeo: Summarise.
22:33:19  oerjan: can you make ais appear here
22:33:23  i need to ask him qs about scapegoat!
22:33:23  He removed the ability to change an object's delegate so that the implementation becomes much nicer
22:33:33  Ilari: How did you arrive to that number? Because I went by Skein, which reportedly does 500 GiB/s on a 3.1 GHz x64 Core 2 Duo, and that gives 1*1024*1024/0.5/60/60/24 ~ 24.27, which is suspiciously similar.
22:33:36  elliott: or wait, the definition of foldM makes that foldl' for Maybes
22:33:49  Sgeo: If changing delegates is a Bad Thing to do anyway, then it's a good decision.
22:33:54  Sgeo: I suspect it is a bad decision.
22:33:57  s/GiB/MiB/
22:34:09  (500 gigabytes/sec would be pretty impressive.)
22:34:34  http://files.slatelanguage.org/doc/pmd/talk.pdf argues that the ability to change delegates is a very, very good thing
22:34:48  Mutation is always bad.
22:34:51  So no, no it isn't
22:34:51  Store a piece of state as "which ancestor" instead of as a slot on the object
22:34:53  *isn't.
22:35:17  Sgeo: no, he wrote another toy language, "Atomy", with a much simpler model for objects, then backported the changes
22:35:30  Goddamn it, why are there no Linux browsers with built-in PDF readers.
22:35:36  Phantom_Hoover: Chrome.
22:35:42  Phantom_Hoover: Its built-in reader renders text really badly though.
22:35:54  Mathnerd314, uh?
22:36:00 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
22:36:15  Mathnerd314: i see no evidence for that
22:36:37  elliott: ask him yourself.
22:37:04  Mathnerd314: considering that his github has no atomy repo, and you haven't provided any sort of evidence at all, I don't see why I should
22:37:08  did he tell you that, or osmething?
22:37:09  elliott, it doesn't seem to...
22:37:10  *something?
22:37:10  elliott: https://bitbucket.org/alex/atomy/
22:37:19  When I click on links to PDFs, it downloads as normal.
22:37:22  ugh, bitbucket
22:37:33  Phantom_Hoover: by chrome, do you mean Debian's chromium package?
22:37:37  I bet it doesn't come with the pdf reader
22:37:43  anyone here like beer?
22:37:45  Phantom_Hoover: it's a bad reader though, I don't recommend it, text is really ugly
22:37:46  Yes. Is it terribly outdated or crippled?
22:37:55  Phantom_Hoover: Uh, it's fairly outdated I think.
22:38:03  Since Chrome gets updated roughly every millisecond.
22:38:12  (Silently, and automatically, like Minecraft!)
22:38:13  beer? anyone?
22:38:17  (OK, not really.)
22:38:20  quintopia: nope!
22:38:27 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:38:32  i know you don't
22:38:38  just providin' a data point
22:38:56  datum is shorter
22:39:09  your face is shorter.
22:39:12  than a datum.
22:39:16  my face has a beer
22:39:23 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how to most effectively compress music to fit in MC music circuits.
22:39:25  your beer is a datum.
22:39:29  Phantom_Hoover: mp3!
22:39:31  PRACTICAL
22:39:32  (and a beard  but that is irrelevant)
22:39:38  Phantom_Hoover: Oh my god, let's wire one up to the CPU.
22:39:43  Phantom_Hoover: IT MUST BE DONE
22:39:43  Well, we're talking note-level.
22:39:50 * oerjan likes the occasional beer but hasn't had one for months
22:40:13  elliott, have you *seen* the time that thing takes per iteration?
22:40:15  I'd buy you a beer
22:40:24  if you would promise not to swat me
22:40:24  Phantom_Hoover: IT'D BE A VERY SLOW SONG
22:40:35  Phantom_Hoover: Do the rendition of the Lincolnshire Poacher heard on the numbers station of the same name.
22:40:42  Phantom_Hoover: It creeps me out. Like a creeper.
22:40:43  quintopia: i don't like beer _that_ much
22:40:49  WTFAD
22:40:50  ha
22:40:54 * oerjan whistles innocently
22:40:56   Well, we're talking note-level. <-- some MIDI?
22:40:59  fizzie: I used bit higher clock rate (i7 can have one) and 6 clocks per byte.
22:41:08  Phantom_Hoover: In fact, make it activated by a pressure plate, and surround your house with them, so that when a creeper steps on them, it plays it.
22:41:10  Has people smelling clean sheets, then narrator says they were washed 7 days ago
22:41:16  How is that interesting?/
22:41:17  Vorpal, dunno, just as in sheet music.
22:41:19  Phantom_Hoover, though a different scheme is probably better
22:41:19  Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poacher.ogg
22:41:24  Sure, maybe after 7 days of regular use, etc.
22:42:09  sgeo: it's a commentary on people who like the smell of sweat
22:42:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:45:20  Ilari: Well, Skein is also described a 6.1 clocks/byte; does something else do 6?
22:46:21  Some other implementation reportedly did 5.99.
22:46:59  on what operation?
22:47:14  skein.
22:47:19  quintopia: i like beer
22:47:42  i almost never drink it
22:48:01  what does skein even mean?
22:48:10  quintopia: It's one of the SHA-3 contest hash functions.
22:48:21  Quite likely to win.
22:48:23  quintopia, a measure of wool?
22:48:25  oh
22:48:29  got it
22:48:53  I feel tempted to say "Schneier's one", but it *does* have other authors, and I don't want to slight them.
22:49:12  speaking of contests, I haven't checked up on the netflix prize in almost a year....
22:49:36  Didn't they already award it to someone?
22:49:48 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
22:50:05  i dunno.  like i said...haven't checked
22:50:44  "On September 18, 2009, Netflix announced team "BellKor's Pragmatic Chaos" as the prize winner, and the prize was awarded to the team in a ceremony on September 21, 2009.[22] "The Ensemble" team had in fact succeeded to match BellKor's result, but since BellKor submitted their results 20 minutes earlier, the rules award the prize to them."
22:50:46  ineiros: ping.
22:50:51  What a dramatic moment.
22:51:12  ha
22:51:18  that's a close call
22:51:29  have they started a new one?
22:52:31  No.
22:52:53  Legal troubles.
22:52:55  well i assume they have implemented that algorithm on their servers now
22:52:57  "In the past few months, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) asked us how a Netflix Prize sequel might affect Netflix members' privacy, and a lawsuit was filed by KamberLaw LLC pertaining to the sequel."
22:52:58 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:53:04  "In light of all this, we have decided to not pursue the Netflix Prize sequel that we announced on August 6, 2009."
22:53:23  I think I remember reading about the lawsuit, but not that they decided to cancel the new competition.
22:53:44  as i recall, all their test data were anonymouse
22:53:54  Well, anonymized to some degree.
22:54:01  It's always arguable how much of that can be done.
22:54:02  why would the sequel dompromise privacy'
22:54:25  They were worried about the first contest already.
22:54:37  Some people identified particular users by cross-correlating against IMDB ratings.
22:54:48  anonymized inasmuch as they removed all references to actual people and randomize some of the data
22:54:58  oh
22:55:00  weird
22:55:34  "The ratings of less-popular films, coupled with the dates they're rated, form a kind of movie-preference fingerprint that can be used to make matches, the researchers concluded."
22:56:03  They can't add too much random noise before their data set goes too far from the real data for sensible algorithm evaluation and such.
22:56:09  oh shit.  ghey can find out what movies people like!
22:56:20  it's an invasion of privacy
22:56:28  they might like /porn/!
22:56:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:56:56  Well, yes, indeed.
22:56:56  okay phone is dying
22:56:58  bye
22:57:04  So. Minecraft is really, really, really addictive.
22:57:21  pikhq: Told you.
22:57:22  I don't find it tat bad
22:57:22  I think also Netflix people may have said in their Terms that they won't tell other people what they're renting.
22:57:25  it's a lot of fun though
22:57:27  pikhq: You've had it for, what, 3 hours? :P
22:57:40  elliott: Guess how long I've been playing it!
22:57:48  pikhq: SEVEN HOURS?
22:57:58  04:39:30  does the minecraft world wrap around?
22:57:58  04:39:37  ilke a donus
22:58:02  this reminds me, I should be playing minecraft
22:58:05  j-invariant: dunno, why not walk to the edge and find out :D
22:58:16  elliott: You are an evil man.
22:58:17  elliott: I thought I hade looped but turns out I just went in a circle
22:58:19  It's clearly an Orbital.
22:58:22  j-invariant: LOL
22:58:28  j-invariant: it has 4x the surface area of the earth
22:58:34  j-invariant: you will nevereverever find the edgee
22:58:35  *edge
22:58:36  EVER
22:58:44  if you walked for real-world years constantly ... still no
22:58:59  Not without our top-secret SMP teleporter.
22:59:07  Phantom_Hoover: yeah then it'd just lag forever
22:59:08  elliott: Don't they always say 8x?
22:59:09  one thing which sucks is I can't leave minecraft running the background while I am here on IRC
22:59:13  fizzie: er maybe
22:59:15  j-invariant: yes you can?
22:59:47  j-invariant: btw re: source code, minecraft is "open" in that decompiling java produces something almost identical to the original code minus variable names, and there's a bunch of batch files (apparently with a shell script version) that deobfuscate most of the class, variable and method names
22:59:50  and you can use this for modding
22:59:58  05:21:47  4.27 m/s, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Transportation
23:00:02  fizzie: Scale that to the Minecraft day.
23:00:05  elliott: geez he should just release the code :P
23:00:07  fizzie: i.e., 20 minutes vs. 24 hours
23:00:20  *17 minutes
23:00:24  j-invariant: Yeah, well, Asteroids II will come with full Amber source code.
23:01:06  Phantom_Hoover: um?
23:01:09  Phantom_Hoover: the days are 20 minutes
23:01:29  Nights are 7. Days are 10.
23:01:35  Phantom_Hoover: Sunrise/set are 1.5 each.
23:01:37  And dusk/dawn are the other 3.
23:01:37  See http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Day/night_cycle.
23:01:39  Right.
23:01:43  = 20.
23:01:48   one thing which sucks is I can't leave minecraft running the background while I am here on IRC
23:01:49  j-invariant: why not?
23:02:01  fizzie: Phantom_Hoover: Gem from that page: "Actual time of Sunset will not change if the texture for the sun is changed. The day/night cycle will be the same length with the same effects even if the sun is visibly larger or smaller."
23:02:02  O RLY
23:03:38  I wish you could put a collar around animals so they don't disappear
23:03:48  ubuntu is getting really great lately
23:03:52  10.10 is very polished
23:03:53  elliott, well that doesn't seem too insane really. Maybe texture packs should be able to provide a parameter for it
23:04:17  Phantom_Hoover: OMG
23:04:18  hellworld
23:04:18  This option has shown up in the 0.2.2_01 release.
23:04:18  Valid values:
23:04:18  true - the server will behave like The Nether; red sky, zombie pigmen and ghasts spawning. The map will stay the same, however, so don't set this flag if you don't want pigmen stomping all over your flower garden.
23:04:28  Phantom_Hoover: You can get red sky, zombie pigmen, and ghasts on a normal map.
23:04:31  That would be ... so amazing
23:04:41  Oh look:
23:04:41  online-mode
23:04:41  Server checks connecting players against minecraft's account database. Only set this to false if your server is not connected to the Internet. Hackers with fake accounts can connect if this is set to false!
23:04:42  Valid values:
23:04:42  true - Enabled. The server will assume it has an Internet connection and check every player.
23:04:43  false - Disabled. The server will not attempt to check connecting players.
23:04:45  You don't even need a mod.
23:05:02  of course not. But to provide any level of security you do
23:05:03  elliott, is this *official*?
23:05:12  Phantom_Hoover: It's in server.properties, at least.
23:05:18  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Server.properties
23:05:27  Jeb is the best thing to happen to MC since forever.
23:05:35  05:25:39  Phantom_Hoover: He wanted to be the guy who's been furthest away from spawn, so I was computerizing how much walking would it take to get to (100k,100k).
23:05:38  Phantom_Hoover, online-mode would allow me to log in as you and dump your inventory in one of my chests for example. And that thing has been around for ages.
23:05:39  oklopol: me and Phantom_Hoover have been there.
23:05:53  Phantom_Hoover: I don't think that's new.
23:05:54  Psssht.
23:06:16  SHUTUPFACTSCAN'TDISSUADEMYJEBFANBOYISM
23:06:58  Phantom_Hoover: Jeb still WORKS FOR NOTCH and ostensibly agrees with his main opinions.
23:07:04  Phantom_Hoover: And didn't veto the switch from git to svn.
23:07:05  elliott: Well, 4.27 blocks/IRL-second → 4.27/72 game-metres/game-second → 213.5 metres/hour. Okay, that's not a very fast walk.
23:07:07  Do not like him too much.
23:07:24  fizzie: 0.1 mph :D
23:07:41  fizzie: You have verified my theory that everything in the Minecraft world is really, really slow and we just view it from a zoom lens.
23:07:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:08:23  elliott, but you hate git now...?
23:08:25  elliott: Well, minecarts can travel up to 0.25 mph.
23:08:28  Is there a mathematical proof that a programming language cannot be both turing-complete and reversible?
23:08:55  fizzie: ZOMG
23:08:57  zzo38: No, because it can be.
23:09:12  fizzie, and in km/h?
23:09:27  (I forgot the conversion factor for that)
23:09:48  elliott: It is what I thought, yes it can be both.
23:11:03  Vorpal: 0.4 km/h.
23:11:46  (28.8 km/h if you count metres in game-blocks but time in IRL terms.)
23:11:57  Someone mentioned a proof:  http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:2D-Reverse
23:12:51  pikhq: The Art of Computer Programming, Volume 4A: Combinatorial Algorithms, Part I, has been released.
23:13:27  *Part 1
23:13:35  j-invariant: hey is that the book you were referring to?
23:13:46  j-invariant: of course you should by TAoCP! all of it! NOWWWW
23:14:05  Should I get TAoCP?
23:14:27  I do not have it but I would like to buy it too.
23:14:49  Amazon sells a reasonably priced reasonably pretty box of TAoCP 1-3.
23:14:54  zzo38: there are turing equivalent reverseible prorgamming languages
23:15:19  zzo38: there is also a notation of "reversibly turing complete" which means it does not store its whole execution trace (while still being reversible)
23:15:37  Phantom_Hoover: YES. (Note: It costs like £100 for the box set.)
23:15:43  fizzie, hm
23:16:00  For Volume 4, I think I'll wait until they sell a box with at least 4A, 4B and 4C.
23:16:02  Random things that immensely annoy me about Doctor Who part n: how many times is humanity going to make first contact?
23:16:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:16:26  j-invariant: I expect 2D-Reverse is reversible and turing-complete.
23:16:42  Phantom_Hoover: :D
23:16:46  Is it?
23:16:59  Phantom_Hoover: I like how everyone acts completely normally even though aliens have been shown to definitely exist, rather dramatically.
23:17:05  Phantom_Hoover: Nobody ever talks about them. Ever.
23:17:08  Heh, Amazon already has a Volume 1-4A box (for pre-order).
23:17:18  elliott, except when it's a plot point, naturally.
23:17:39  olsner: "ridiculous. ant/nant is already the ultimate build system." --actual person expressing actual, non-sarcastic opinion
23:17:55  It got particularly ridiculous when noöne bothered to tell Donna that she had missed about 3 alien invasions.
23:18:46  http://www.amazon.com/Art-Computer-Programming-Volumes-Boxed/dp/0201485419/ -- this is the version I have, and it's sort-of reasonably priced; but of course if you don't have volumes 1-3, the new box -- http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Programming-Volumes-1-4A-Boxed/dp/0321751043/ -- probably has updates in 1-3 too. (Since it's called "third edition" and all.)
23:19:33  I wish ais was here so I could ask if all changesets should just be stored topographically sorted to avoid recomputing, or if there's some reason why that can't work.
23:19:33  "Anything happen while I was away?" "Well, some aliens invaded and killed a bunch of people, but that's old news."
23:20:12  Phantom_Hoover: You're forgetting the part where the Earth got TRANSPORTED TO ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM, which apparently made the sky transparent for some reason.
23:20:18  Or was Donna there for that?
23:20:21  Point is, nobody's mentioned it since.
23:20:27  elliott, erm, the sky kind of is transparent.
23:20:35  Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes.
23:20:39  If there was another planet nearby in the sky, we'd see it clearly.
23:20:42  Phantom_Hoover: But I mean, it became black with planets dotted in it.
23:20:50  Phantom_Hoover: *Yes*, but there was a suspicious lack of *blue*.
23:21:10  elliott, there wasn't exactly a star nearby.
23:21:17  Phantom_Hoover: Err, wasn't there?
23:21:30  Not IIRC.
23:21:34  Oh.
23:21:39  The rest of my line still stands.
23:22:39  The bit about everyone forgetting and going about their lives?
23:22:40  elliott, I now know what causes the lag to ineiros. Packet loss.
23:23:00  Vorpal had finally solved the greatest problem of his existence.
23:23:26 * Sgeo ponders redownloading ... those links elliott mentioned
23:23:46  Phantom_Hoover, did I claim that...?
23:23:56  Phantom_Hoover, where did you get that idea from
23:24:00  Vorpal, nowhere.
23:24:08  BACK TO THE AMNESIA OF DOCTOR WHO CHARACTERS
23:24:18  To be fair, they do poke fun at it.
23:24:40  But the timeline and continuity is irrevocably screwed up, probably because RTD is a grade-A idiot.
23:24:44  4A has a pretty limited topic (7.1 zeros and ones, incl. 7.1.3 bitwise tricks and techniques, plus 7.2.1 combinatorial generators), leaving many juicy bits (7.3 shortest paths, 7.4 graph algos, 7.5 network algos, etc.) for volumes 4B, 4C, ...; even given that it manages to be 912 pages. So my guess is it's rather knuthian in depth.
23:25:32  Phantom_Hoover: They should devote two whole series to reconstructing the timeline.
23:25:33  Like DC Comics.
23:25:39  elliott, even then.
23:25:52  Consider that it can't possibly be in sync with the real-world time.
23:26:35  Phantom_Hoover: Have it start with the "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" speech from Blink!
23:26:39  That solves everything
23:26:55  Doctor Who quite clearly has 2D time.
23:27:24  elliott, your links don't work
23:27:33  Sgeo: Yes they do.
23:27:38  Erm
23:27:49  As in, trying to use the downloaded files doens't work
23:28:21  Sgeo: They do if you have a friend who's willing to let you access their MC account once.
23:28:23  Heh, from Knuth's page: "Volume 5, Syntactic Algorithms, in preparation: 9. Lexical scanning (includes also string search and data compression); 10. Parsing techniques. Estimated to be ready by 2020." Well, he certainly is optimistic.
23:28:26  Ask KTAT
23:28:28  "Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute from .."
23:28:46  fizzie: He has discovered the Fountain of Youth.
23:28:47  "After Volume 5 has been completed, I will revise Volumes 1--3 again to bring them up to date. In particular, the new material for those volumes that has been issued in beta-test fascicles will be incorporated at that time.
23:28:48  Then I will publish a ``reader's digest'' edition of Volumes 1--5, condensing the most important material into a single book.
23:28:48  And after Volumes 1--5 are done, God willing, I plan to publish Volume 6 (the theory of context-free languages) and Volume 7 (Compiler techniques), but only if the things I want to say about those topics are still relevant and still haven't been said." That's probably around 2100 or so, then.
23:29:02  C:\Users\Sgeo\Downloads\MinecraftNew\minecraft.jar"
23:29:21  elliott, *KT-AT
23:29:40  Phantom_Hoover: Ktat.
23:29:43  Sgeo: Fail.
23:29:50  It goes in %APPDATA%\.minecraft\bin.
23:30:03  And you need Minecraft.jar (uppercase M) from the minecraft.net site (placed anywhere) to launch it.
23:30:43  Why is there a Minecraft.jar and a minecraft.jar?
23:30:50  Notch-quality naming scheme
23:30:52  ?
23:31:18  Does the Minecraft.jar have to be up to date?
23:31:29  Uh, it's a free download.
23:32:27  what will happen to my alpha save?
23:32:32  Should I just delete it?
23:32:41  Sgeo: It will work fine.
23:32:55  More grievances with Doctor Who: what was with everyone acting like everything was fine after they rewound time in the series 3 finale?
23:33:00 * Sgeo is happy that he won't need to go coal hunting
23:33:08  Sgeo: Um, you'll need to mine.
23:33:10  The people still *died*, you stupid twats.
23:33:11  And mining of any sort = tons of coal.
23:33:40  I don't strictly speaking need to mine, if I'm fine being bored on the surface the whole time
23:33:43  >.>
23:33:48  Just because you've pulled yourselves out of the situation doesn't magically fix everything.
23:33:49  But it means I won't need to rush to get coal
23:34:06  Sgeo: If you're not on Peaceful, you need to mine to get the stuff you need to not die.
23:35:28  Or you can just avoid things that kill you.
23:35:43  Or you can cower in a hole in a cliffside like I do.
23:35:45  elliott, shelter, lighting, what else?
23:36:10  Sgeo: I'm way ahead of you: I *won* Minecraft.
23:36:18  Sgeo: How to win Minecraft:
23:36:21  Find a hill made out of dirt.
23:36:33  Take two blocks, one above the other, starting at ground level, from the hill.
23:36:35  Walk inside.
23:36:41  Place them just in front of you, looking outwards.
23:36:55  Congratulations, you have mined two blocks, placed two blocks, and are in an invincible shelter.
23:36:59  Monsters can never harm you.
23:37:00  You Win!
23:37:07  (Yes, I did this.)
23:37:17  Unless you want to enjoy yourself.
23:37:32  Sgeo, you can also use the patented HHI Airbase.
23:37:36  Well, yeah, but it's the winning that's important.
23:37:39  Phantom_Hoover: DON'T REVEAL THE PLANS.
23:37:42  They are state secrets.
23:37:57  Phantom_Hoover: BTW, if the airbase gets big enough, we'll need a ceiling (glass, probably); otherwise monsters will spawn like 40 blocks away.
23:37:59  Sgeo: Or you can just put it on peaceful and mine the fuck out of everything.
23:38:14  pikhq: Peaceful single-player is rather boring most of the time.
23:38:18  elliott, erm, lighting?
23:38:27  Phantom_Hoover: Well, sure.
23:38:34  Phantom_Hoover: Or... MAKE THE AIRBASE OUT OF STEPS
23:38:37  My mouse will STILL not stay in the window
23:38:40  AKA a trivial requirement?
23:38:48 * Sgeo gives up for now
23:39:02  Sgeo: Your computer is broken.
23:39:05  Phantom_Hoover: ?
23:39:12  elliott, lighting.
23:39:13  Sgeo: What OS?
23:39:14  Phantom_Hoover: Right.
23:39:20  Windows
23:39:31  Sgeo: Not helpful.
23:39:32  Sgeo: What OS?
23:39:37  Windows 7
23:39:49  Sgeo: What JVM?
23:39:55  Um
23:40:08  Hold on
23:40:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:41:46  C:\Users\Sgeo>java -version
23:41:46  java version "1.6.0_22"
23:41:46  Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_22-b04)
23:41:46  Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 17.1-b03, mixed mode)
23:42:30  Sgeo: Screenshot of Minecraft running?
23:42:39  With your mouse inside the window.
23:42:42  And clicking.
23:43:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:43:07  Incidentally, the .minecraft is an amalgamation of those files and nooga's source's files
23:43:10  That's probably it
23:43:22  But I don't know how to fix it
23:43:45  Sgeo, buy the game
23:43:47  that fixes it
23:43:54  Vorpal, I intend to soon
23:43:57  (the amalgation of files)
23:44:08  amalgamation*
23:44:16  I am very happy to have bought it, it was well worth it
23:44:40  Sgeo, and I'm sure ineiros will let you on then. Even if elliott will hate that.
23:45:03  j-invariant, the only issue is the addiction. But I guess Sgeo has that already
23:45:05  elliott wants me on so I can do drudge work
23:45:30  Sgeo, refuse to once you get on and instead go build some awesome thing some distance away :)
23:46:13  I have a boring idea
23:46:22  Sgeo, oh?
23:46:25  Binary
23:46:31  Sgeo, binary what?
23:47:14  One block, then to the left block above air, then to the left, block block, then to the left, block air air, etc
23:47:15  Sgeo, better idea: build a houseboat as your base. Won't be able to move yet (perhaps if we get movecraft!). But awesome
23:48:09  ...so?
23:48:21  elliott, I did say my idea was boring
23:48:22  can you build cars of some sort in movecraft
23:48:35  oklopol: if they hover in the air, i guess
23:48:41  oklopol: it empties chests though
23:48:54  elliott, that will likely be fixed soon
23:48:56  When will it not empty chests?
23:48:59  I spoke to the authors
23:49:02  author*
23:49:13  movecraft is cool, and getting cooler every day
23:49:17  Is it possible to use water to get down from any height safely?/
23:49:25  Sgeo, yes
23:49:28  :D
23:49:33  Sgeo, 2 deep pool at the bottom
23:49:37  Sgeo, 1 deep won't work
23:49:43  Um
23:49:46  Sgeo, you need 2 deep or deeper
23:49:50  If you don't have access to the bottom?
23:49:58  And are spilling the water from a height?
23:50:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:50:05  Sgeo, I guess you could carefully go down a waterfall
23:50:08  is it theoretically impossible to get down safely from a single block up in the air?
23:50:10  How do normal people get down from a scaffold?
23:50:10  i think so
23:50:24  oklopol, not if you have a bucket of water with you
23:50:27  oklopol: hmm
23:50:28  oklopol: no
23:50:29  oklopol: of course not
23:50:32  oklopol: sand
23:50:40 -!- Behold has joined.
23:50:43  Sgeo, you walk down it if you built it that way
23:50:46  sneak to the edge of the block, place one sand, run back onto the block so you don't fall
23:50:50  repeat until there's a full tower
23:50:51  using just dirt, that was kinda important
23:50:52  step on
23:50:53  Sgeo, or if it is a 1x1 pillar then you dig down
23:50:54  destroy sand below you
23:51:03  oklopol: are we to assume that there is no terrain nearby?
23:51:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:51:23  all terrain in the world is 10 lower than you
23:51:31  obviously you can move arbitrarily far at your height
23:51:36  Sgeo: yes, you can use water to get down. you can even remove the water and dirt first
23:51:45  assuming you have an infinite amount of dirt at least
23:51:47  place water, step on water, carefully remove dirt, bucket water, follow stream down
23:51:56  oklopol: trivially impossible then afaics
23:52:27  What dirt?
23:52:29  oklopol, if all terrain is 10 below you
23:52:38  oklopol, then built out until you are above 2 deep water
23:52:42  oklopol, then jump down
23:52:54  oklopol, I think elliott has me on ignore so tell him I solved it
23:52:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:52:55  obviously all that terrain is dirt
23:53:00  Sgeo: if you're on one block of dirt
23:53:07  oklopol, not obviously. You didn't say that :P
23:53:21  oklopol: maybe if you remove the dirt block below you, wait until you're in placing-range of the terrain below, then rapid-fire :D
23:53:29  well that's the natural question
23:53:31  If you follow a stream down, and it ends up not being 2 deep at the bottom
23:53:33  you'd only fall 4 blocks, if you can place blocks instantly
23:53:38  elliott: 10 is enough to forbid that
23:53:39  elliott, I don't think that will work
23:53:43  oklopol: no it isn't
23:53:46  by a couple blocks
23:53:46  oklopol: you can place from 6 blocks
23:53:49  so fall 4 blocks
23:53:49  erm
23:53:50  place madly
23:53:53  4 hurts
23:53:56  until there's a block below you
23:53:57  oklopol: it does?
23:54:00  i think so
23:54:00  yes
23:54:03  test it :p
23:54:10  3 does not hurt. 4 does
23:54:11  that's why 10. that's a lie, i just chose it arbitrarily.
23:54:41  fizzie: "Bees, bees, bees, bees!" --slogan
23:54:48  what i was thinking was something crazy like jumping down so you can start putting stuff under your original block, but obviously you still can't put a block under yourself...
23:55:06 * Sgeo attempts to examine schedules again
23:55:11  And trying not to go mad
23:56:17  hah: http://i.imgur.com/uWV6r.jpg
23:56:22  Phantom_Hoover logreading: Bad thing about skybase: Respawning often offsets you enough that you fall to your death.
23:57:47  Vorpal: haha
23:58:09  so if you have sand and dirt, you can actually reach any cell from any cell
23:58:21  starting and ending on top of single block
23:58:23  without tower
23:58:29  j-invariant, also this is seriously cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPVYrltke4
23:58:36  a bit glitchy in the middle
23:58:38  but still
23:58:47  oklopol: well er... maybe
23:58:52  i don't see how you could get up again to a single block
23:58:53  a bit waste of space though to not reuse block for same tone
23:58:57  wow! that's great
23:59:13  elliott: using dirt, just make a staircase and break it as you go up for instance
23:59:29  oklopol: how can you break the block before your current one
23:59:30  as in
23:59:31  below
23:59:32  oklopol: i.e.
23:59:34   #
23:59:35  ##
23:59:37  erm
23:59:38  .#
23:59:39  ##
23:59:41  how do you break bottom-right
23:59:42  elliott, by shifting out on the edge
23:59:46  ...
23:59:48  you can even just break the block two down from you, then jump up and place under you'
23:59:49  i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the
23:59:49  .
23:59:50  #
23:59:50  part
23:59:53  *-

2011-01-15:

00:00:04   i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the <-- yes it is
00:00:06  I told you how
00:00:07  duh
00:00:28  oklopol, you can tell him what I said. He is obviously /ignore-ing me. I don't know why
00:01:02  what exactly should i tell him?
00:01:11  http://image.bayimg.com/padlgaade.jpg
00:01:14  oklopol, that I told him how it is possible to do that :P
00:01:19  elliott, are you ignoring Vorpal?
00:01:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:01:44  Until XChat can be configured to ignore mentions of names I will have to do it mentally.
00:01:44 -!- pumpkin has joined.
00:01:51  I'll write a script to do it at some point.
00:01:59  LOL
00:02:02  how strange. Well if that is his style
00:02:11  elliott, Vorpal suggested sneaking over the edge
00:02:30  he will refuse to acknowledge this
00:02:33  Sgeo: I recommend not trying to evade ignores.
00:02:36  which will be utterly stupid
00:02:37  see
00:02:40  that is what I told you
00:02:49  how immature
00:02:53  Vorpal might note that that method is exactly what I said, however.
00:02:56  elliott: Vorpal suggested what Sgeo said, but you don't even need to have that, all we need is that you can remove the topmost dirt from piles close to you, if you have good visibility
00:03:03   Vorpal might note that that method is exactly what I said, however. <-- no
00:03:04  erm
00:03:05  it wasn't
00:03:11  oh of course you then can't remove the last one
00:03:16  you said " i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the" after
00:04:16  "The Blue Creeper is a new variety of creeper that spawns in the dark just like normal creepers, but they have a much different behaviour pattern. Instead of puffing up, these creepers launch themselves into the air like a rocket! After that, they explode on impact with the ground, so get out of there!!!"
00:04:17  Oh, lovely.
00:04:19  Just what I need.
00:04:39  btw
00:04:44  but it's actually still possible with a slightly less powerful visibility (which i don't specify): you have AB and C on top of C, now add D next to A on another axis, remove B, then remove D, jump on C and remove A
00:04:49  I was able to hook a creeper on the fishing line to actually get him off my treehouse :P
00:04:56  j-invariant: :D
00:05:03  oklopol: start minecraft theory
00:05:35  Bloody piece of shit website
00:05:42  STOP BEING DOWN
00:06:20  It's back up?
00:06:22  o.O
00:06:47  j-invariant: http://twitter.com/pigworker/status/25835213661675520
00:06:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:07:02  And it's back down
00:07:07 * Sgeo stabs elliott angrily
00:07:12  What.
00:07:34  I'm just taking out my anger at this website on you
00:07:50  elliott is an awesome punching bag
00:08:04  indeed, but for the gormet punching experience may i recommend oklopol
00:08:09  *gourmet
00:08:10  mmmm
00:08:12  gourmet
00:08:34  i should probably eat some meat. and possibly some noodles.
00:08:43  how gourmet
00:09:11  yes, i have a binary scale from uninteresting to gourmet
00:10:41  it's actually a bit crazy that even if you have an infinite plane, there is actually no way to even get one block down from it
00:10:47  unless there already are blocks down
00:11:07  is there with some tool or something?
00:11:15 * Sgeo oohs at http://isup.me
00:11:16  sand doesn't help in this case
00:12:15  oklopol: If your spawn-point is on the plane, jump down, place blocks as you fall, die, respawn, go down.
00:12:29  I guess that doesn't quite count.
00:12:29  well sure, by using one life, you can lower the plane as much as you like
00:13:13  Sgeo: "oohs"?
00:13:18  you seriously haven't seen it before?
00:13:20  the whole plane, since if you have even one block under the plane, you can easily destroy the whole plane, and build another plane from that single block (ignoring the fact it's an infinite plane, but anyhow i think you can do it lazily)
00:13:29  elliott, I haven't seen the shortened domain before.
00:13:36  :/
00:13:41  what the hell is impressive about that
00:13:44  Sgeo: ...you're oohing at a domain being slightly shorter.
00:13:49  Your... brain is... broken.
00:13:53  oklopol: Maybe if you ride a boat down you could (theoretically) place blocks as you fall in such a way that you'd be able to jump from the boat on to one of them. (I'm not sure how well you can jump from a falling boat, however.)
00:13:57  Your brain is completely and utterly not working correctly in any way whatsoever.
00:14:00  oh my god Sgeo, what the hell did you just do! please apologize
00:14:03  for once I actually agree with elliott
00:14:09  j-invariant: that hurts man, that hurts :D
00:14:10  oklopol: And then there was the water thing.
00:14:11  me too
00:14:28  oklopol, um?
00:14:32   Sgeo: ...you're oohing at a domain being slightly shorter. <-- "slightly"?
00:14:41  the one I remember is rather long
00:14:42  ohh right, make a waterfall, go down by boat, put some blocks, come up?
00:14:50  You can just swim down/up.
00:14:53  tru
00:15:19  so again, that's kind of trivial
00:15:22  oklopol: I don't suppose you could hang at the "bottom" of a ladder and place a continuation block below where the ladder ends? (Probably not.)
00:15:34  Seriously? Not having to type as much is not ooh worthy?
00:15:41  [Bookmarks are useless for me]
00:15:43  i want a problem that doesn't have an *effective* solution, like you'd need a bot and it'd take ages to do
00:15:52  fizzie: i don't know, was wondering
00:15:55   oklopol: Maybe if you ride a boat down you could (theoretically) place blocks as you fall in such a way that you'd be able to jump from the boat on to one of them. (I'm not sure how well you can jump from a falling boat, however.) <-- you can exit a falling boat. I don't think you can jump from one though. Never tried in single player since falling on a falling boat hurts (it falls slower than
00:15:55  you do except when you hit it and your vertical speed is reset to zero)
00:15:56  Sgeo: yes, it seriously is not
00:16:25  There's a certain elegance to the new domain name
00:16:25  Sgeo, elliott is wrong
00:16:37  Sgeo, though perhaps you did over-react a bit
00:16:46  but he is way too hard. I think he gone nuts recently
00:16:59  "recently"
00:16:59  ?
00:17:05  Sgeo, well more than usually
00:17:17  Sgeo, he has been nuts for a long time
00:17:21  but not this much
00:17:36  I'm pretty sure his reaction is typical of him
00:17:47  Sgeo, well true. But I meant in general
00:18:00  are there minecraft puzzles somewhere?
00:18:21  oklopol, that sounds interesting
00:18:23  a certain elegeance
00:18:25  *elegance
00:18:26  maybe you could do some stuff with resource limitations, dunno
00:18:26  honestly
00:18:27  oklopol, do you mean physical ones?
00:18:29  Sgeo: There's a domain (registered) called up.is, that could be made one of those is-it-up sites.
00:18:39  oklopol, or puzzles to solve in-game?
00:18:42  also if you're replying to Vorpal which I suspect, he's currently in his regular elliott whine mode
00:18:53  no I'm not
00:18:57  where he uses every situation as an opportunity to talk about how horrible i am, i doubt j-invariant and oklopol got the same treatment despite them agreeing
00:19:00  you are in going nuts mode
00:19:01  puzzles to solve in-game would necessarily be pretty trivial wouldn't they
00:19:04  but then Vorpal never was one for consistency, non-hypocrisy, logic, ...
00:19:13  oklopol: that's what ADVENTURE mode is going to be
00:19:16  no block placing which is just stupid
00:19:17  oh come on. You are not one for them either
00:19:32  well of course there has to be block placing and removing
00:19:51  otherwise obviously you can execute any puzzle as a computer program opening a door if the correct switches are used
00:20:06  BRB
00:20:24  or alternatively: that wouldn't really be a minecraft puzzle
00:21:01  Vorpal: in-game, sure, but in the sense that you are given extra rules
00:21:16  oklopol: Minecraft without block placement is like a farm without the wife walking on the granary path, you know. (I don't suppose the "talo ilman aitanpolulla astelevaa emäntää" thing is an international idiom.)
00:21:17  hmmhmm
00:21:27  could you build a trap that can't be destroyed easily without dying?
00:21:28  next time I'm setting up base somewhere isolated I am saving the coordinates
00:22:01  P.S. how the hell am I supposed to SEE the coordinates over that graph
00:22:09  Someone highlighted me.
00:22:14  that's a problem i have as well
00:22:23  j-invariant: get a better cpu
00:22:26  and it'll take up less of the graph :-)
00:22:39  Oh. Wow.
00:22:41   olsner: "ridiculous. ant/nant is already the ultimate build system." --actual person expressing actual, non-sarcastic opinion
00:22:50  Using a larger and/or a differently shaped window might also help. (I don't know if it scales the font size or not.)
00:22:52  OUTRAGE!
00:23:44  olsner: when someone said "but XML" they replied "well nant fixes that!" (paraphrased)
00:23:49  hmm, could you make something like a huge amount of arrow guns that shoot at you no matter which way you approach the thing?
00:24:04  oklopol: probably
00:24:13  from bedrock to clouds
00:24:20  you can go above clouds
00:24:20  shooting all the time
00:24:23  oklopol: you can place dispensers in any direction
00:24:26  shooting all the time? heh
00:24:27  the only remedy would be if nant stands for "not ant", but even in the negative starting with ant is the wrong way
00:24:32  that's just a constant redstone circuit
00:24:35  elliott: up as well? oh cool
00:24:45  kind of like how SVN wouldn't have been any better if it was "not cvs" instead of "better cvs"
00:24:48  olsner: nant = .NET ant
00:24:50  oklopol: er well doubtful
00:24:53  Is "nant" that Ant-like .net build tool? Because that's XML build files too.
00:25:02  maybe it just uses LESS XML!
00:25:05  oh you just meant in any nwes direction
00:25:05  oklopol: but if you build bedrock to top you can't go above anyway
00:25:06  well
00:25:10  you can climb to the top, but
00:25:16  that's basically unsolvable
00:25:21  even with arrows, you could climb to the top
00:25:22  http://nant.sourceforge.net/release/latest/help/fundamentals/buildfiles.html -- yeah, I'm sure that's very nice to anyone who hates XML.
00:25:23  and just jump over quickly
00:25:29  is it? what if you build a wall as you go
00:25:35  you'd get killed from the fall though
00:25:36  oklopol: eh?
00:25:40  we may assume a single arrow kills you
00:26:09  oklopol: are the cows in this model spherical?
00:26:10  elliott: like, dunno, somehow shield yourself from the arrows
00:26:21  great: "NAnt's build files are written in XML. Each build file contains one project and a number of targets.  Each target contains a number of tasks."
00:26:21  if it makes the puzzle interesting, sure
00:26:22  oklopol: i think it's quite simple
00:26:32  that's *exactly what ant does*
00:26:44  oklopol: does the inside need to be guarded too?
00:26:52  i.e. do you want people inside to be shot
00:26:58  no
00:27:07  that's the goal, to get inside
00:27:08  maybe.
00:27:09  olsner: That's not surprising, given that it's designed to be "like Ant".
00:27:14  oklopol: build each wall with the arrows facing outwards
00:27:33  ?
00:27:38  oklopol: this misses diagonals, so if you approach from a diagonal, time it right, and put two dirt in front of you, you can shield
00:27:41  (btw i just realized you can just approach diagonally)
00:27:46  fizzie: according to some supporters nant fixes all the problems with using xml
00:27:46  well you might need two i think arrows go through one block with dispensers
00:27:50  oklopol: and then you just have to like
00:27:57  build one platform, place dirt over dispenser quickly
00:28:00  repeat until you get to the top
00:28:02  oklopol: alternatively
00:28:09  oklopol: start far enough away that the arrows don't reach you
00:28:09  maybe the trap sends minecarts shooting arrows by using zombies
00:28:11  build tower to level 128
00:28:13  erm
00:28:15  build dirt towards tower
00:28:16  step over
00:28:17  not zombies, skeletons
00:28:17  Do dispensers have any user other than weaponry?
00:28:18  fall to death
00:28:24  Sgeo: yes
00:28:31  Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw
00:28:55  elliott: you can be higher than highest dirt?
00:29:04  oklopol: you can stand on top of it
00:29:16  oklopol: so the dispenser would be level with what you're standing on
00:29:19  thus making you immune to its arrows
00:30:00  oklopol: is your game done
00:30:03  yet
00:30:12  in that case you can approach any trap: no trap can destroy your dirts, and no trap can shoot up, so you can just remove one layer of the trap at a time
00:30:18  one level i mean
00:30:33  starting from the top
00:30:39  blergh
00:31:04  oklopol: hehe
00:31:10  oklopol: question, you know your game
00:31:15  i know it
00:31:22  it's not ready yet btw
00:31:38  oklopol: it's 2d universe right
00:31:45  yes
00:32:00  3d is always ugly
00:32:00 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:32:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:32:33 -!- Tritonio has joined.
00:32:34  oklopol: i have an idea you will enjoy
00:32:40  i'm sure i will
00:32:43  oklopol: 3d universe with 2d cross-section interface
00:32:46  oklopol: i.e. the dwarf fortress model
00:32:56  all the freedom of 3d, all the beauty of 2d, all the incomprehensibility of the combination
00:32:59  yeah that's a retarded idea
00:33:24  oklopol: you hurt me
00:33:50  oklopol: why's it retarded :p
00:34:02  less ugly than the usual 3d view, sure, but so is rendering a 3d world as a butterfly flying around on your screen.
00:34:07  doesn't really make the gameplay all that fun.
00:34:31  Why are you down, website? Why? Why must you do this to me?
00:34:37  You are tearing me apart, website!
00:34:43  you would be a complete cripple against an enemy
00:34:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:35:11  a human that uses the usual 3d rendering or an ai
00:35:12 -!- cheater777 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:35:17  oklopol: make it 4d then
00:35:26  oklopol: everyone's a cripple
00:35:28  4d is always a viable option
00:35:29  :D
00:35:38  oklopol: now how you render this is
00:35:48  speaking of 4d...is that 4d platformer thing any closer to public playability/
00:35:54  oklopol: pick a 4d->3d projection, preferably the craziest one you can think of that works in discrete space
00:36:04  oklopol: then do the cross-section 3d->2d thing
00:36:13  oklopol: congrats, least understandable world, ever
00:36:41  http://www.sct-bus.org/br.html is up, but the main website isn't
00:36:44  maybe a 1d projection would be nice
00:36:44 * Sgeo mindboggles
00:36:58  erm
00:37:01  i meant to say 0d
00:37:09  oklopol: use the most mathematically pretty Z^2 -> Z projection you can think of
00:37:13  and render the plane in 1d like that
00:37:20  :D
00:37:24  oklopol: omg, then do a 3d projection like this:
00:37:25  hey that's actually a great idea
00:37:33  oklopol: first row is everything with z=0, with that pretty projection
00:37:33  |4d| = |1d|
00:37:35  second row is z=1
00:37:38  third row is z=2
00:37:38  etc.
00:37:46  and you'll have the most fucked-up 3D projection ever :D
00:37:48  now
00:37:53  that forms a 2D image
00:37:59  compress THAT with the same projection
00:38:01  nah we just need one dimension and a bijection with the 4d space
00:38:03  and you've compressed 3D into 1D
00:38:08  then do the same thing with rows again
00:38:09  tada
00:38:09  4D
00:38:13  in 2D
00:38:20  and arrows drawn on top to show where the successor in each direction is
00:38:40  oklopol: mine is nicer
00:38:40  because
00:38:49  movement would be completely incomprehensible
00:38:56  you'd probably just jump about the plane seemingly randomly
00:38:56  if ( temp == '.' ) { fileName=fileName }
00:38:57  the array gets randomly resorted all the time in order to make sure the hamming distances correspond well to distances on screen
00:39:02  and things would just sorta flicker all the time
00:39:03  Bloody hell is wrong with this website?
00:39:32  erm
00:39:34  #esoteric is not a "website"
00:39:42  and it's supposed to work like this
00:40:10  :D
00:40:24  elliott: so maybe 4d -> 2d + arrows + resorting
00:40:28  or actually
00:40:32  oklopol: dude excuse me
00:40:34  maybe it just shows a neighborhood as a graph
00:40:36  oklopol: mine involved one, pretty projection?
00:40:57  but that's a stupid projection because you have to stay near spawn all the time
00:41:02  or you won't see what you're doing
00:41:17  oklopol: um it always scrolls to show you where you are
00:41:18  oklopol: and
00:41:26  oklopol: you can hold like shift while pressing a direction
00:41:27  to "look around"
00:41:38  i.e. center the view on the block to your [direction]
00:41:42  and move around like that, without actually moving
00:41:44  it scrolls, yes, what i meant was the jumps get longer
00:41:47  thus letting you GET TO GRIPS with the world
00:41:50  oklopol: but of course
00:41:52  isn't that a feature
00:42:02  it's a feature that means you have to stay near spawn
00:42:06  I wish you coud put down flags that would be your (nearest) spawnpoint
00:42:08  i prefer just rendering a graph
00:42:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:43:10  ofc it's always the same graph, but i won't tell the randomized graph drawer that
00:43:21  tomorrow I shall stop being so afraid of iretq
00:44:12  olsner: how far is your os done
00:44:28  I'd say a few operations short of iretq
00:44:36  olsner: no but srsly
00:45:10  well srsly then - I was working on context switching then figured out it was a wee bit trickier than in theory
00:45:29  (this was 3 weeks ago)
00:46:16  I thought it should be doable without any of the fancy stuff that an iretq *can* do, not so sure anymore
00:47:14  olsner, iretq?
00:47:36 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:47:37  interrupt return, quad version
00:47:55  or iret with a 64-bit operand size
00:48:11  olsner, is that the x86 family?
00:48:25  did not do any work today, just played minecraft :|
00:48:32  j-invariant: :D
00:48:50  olsner: so what is your os actually going to be like
00:48:52  what structure
00:49:00   Why are you down, website? Why? Why must you do this to me? <-- hey get with the memes, it's supposed to be "WEBSITE  Y U NO WORK?"
00:49:13  elliott: mostly yet to be determined, microkernelish
00:49:24  I finally got my hands on the bus's schedule
00:49:48  and, you know, there won't actually be an *operating* system, it'll just be a kernel until at least 2020
00:50:11  (probably...)
00:50:32  !help
00:50:37 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:50:41  help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help .
00:50:43  Speaking of ambition, today I came across http://nhi1.berlios.de/ "The line from the evolution in computer-science up to the computer hardware development speed and the internet global computer network lead to the possibility to create the first Non Human Intelligence until 2040. [...] The NHI1 project will create an open intelligence."
00:50:51  !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
00:51:12  They have already solved natural language understanding: you just do "human language   -->   other language    -->   human language" and then make sure "other language" is "computer understand-able".
00:51:19  err
00:51:32  it's very slow today
00:51:38  126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [707]
00:51:43  oh come on
00:51:45  !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
00:51:48  128 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>-. [771]
00:51:55  ..
00:51:59  fizzie: Easy!
00:52:24  olsner: hey 2020 is about when I expect @ to start taking shape...
00:52:40  after fixing up context switching I think communicating processes will be next - then some kind of support for SMP systems, basically just whatever is needed for the kernel not to fuck itself immediately
00:52:47   They have already solved natural language understanding: you just do "human language   -->   other language    -->   human language" and then make sure "other language" is "computer understand-able". <-- :D
00:53:01  fizzie, what morons.
00:53:05  OHEY Notch should add a fourth dimension mode to MC and completely remove the market for Miegakure :P
00:53:25  e.g. I'd like it to be pre-emptive as soon as possible, but I think there are tricky bits in making that work right
00:53:31  fizzie:
00:53:36  Why 'Friend Of Google' ?
00:53:36  In the past days I had time to watch some tubes from Google tech-talk including the latest interviews from Eric Schmidt. I thing Google is the current technology PowerHouse and worth to serve as the first target of NHI1.
00:53:36  Would that be Google as a verb or a noun? -> more noun as verb
00:53:51  elliott: They also have "theBrain", which is a key-value database, because, you know, that's all a brain is. Since "Data is the key point of every technology. Data have to be smart organized to be available with the speed and with the quality needed."
00:54:02  fizzie: Tokyo Cabinet: it's intelligent!
00:54:21  ~99% of all the data is located in the private (local) networks. (to check this, google (verb) for an average known (not famous) person from your own social environment and check the results available in the Internet. You will not find any data from the person own hard-drive, you will not find any data from the person employer, you will not find any private data from a Login-Required Internet zone like facebook... -> This all is good because priv
00:54:21  ate is private and the opposite from public)
00:54:25  Yes, the Moggel thing was a bit curious too.
00:54:26  Private is private and the opposite from public.
00:54:45  The Project sounds a little bit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test-driven_development but it does, in fact, more. The goal is that the programmer does only write test-cases and the TDC is in duty to: write, organize and publish the software. Nobody, including the programmer itself, have to understand the software created.
00:54:45  elliott: Do note that "theCompiler" has some Clue-like tendencies. (Except it of course doesn't exist.)
00:54:48  it irks me this full context switching thing though - there are a *lot* of registers to restore... cooperative multiprocessing would be nicer - not least because since you already have rcx and r11 clobbered for syscall so you can simply sysret back to it
00:54:50  Hey, they invented Clue! >:)
00:54:52  fizzie: haha
00:54:59  again, cooperative sucks
00:55:21  olsner: see if you compile a language like I do, then you can automatically insert yield instructions in the compiled code in places that the compiler deems to be optimal
00:55:24  olsner: just saying
00:55:54  well, basically you have to *guarantee* that all user processes call yield in a timely manner
00:55:55  olsner: this allows the simplicity of a cooperative architecture with the responsiveness and reliability of a preemptive architecture, and with a Sufficiently Smart Compiler, even greater performance
00:56:03  olsner: yes, and since all things in my OS go through the compiler
00:56:08  it just has to insert yield instructions itself
00:56:12  right, that's your OS
00:56:19  olsner: which your OS should be, since my OS is the best?
00:56:35   it irks me this full context switching thing though - there are a *lot* of registers to restore... cooperative multiprocessing would be nicer - not least because since you already have rcx and r11 clobbered for syscall so you can simply sysret back to it <-- hm doesn't x86 have an instruction to dump it all or restore it all?
00:56:58  fizzie: "responsible engineer to migrate the entire infrastructure of a life insurance company to the state of the art"
00:57:04  fizzie: Dear god, this guy is actually given serious tasks to do.
00:57:08  for one, I still expect an assembly-level interface, and no trust from the OS on user processes - this means cooperative is pretty much out of the question from the start
00:57:13  http://openfacts2.berlios.de/wikien/index.php/User:Aotto1968#1_mar_2008
00:57:31 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:57:42  olsner: my OS gives no trust at all to "processes" (no such concept in mine), but yeah, no asm-level interface without the user demanding that e be allowed to run some arbitrary code :)
00:58:02  olsner, will this be an RTOS?
00:58:06  Vorpal: there is (waspushad
00:58:25  olsner, er?
00:58:29  *(was) pushad, but it doesn't restore ip and doesn't support 64-bit registers
00:58:41  olsner: have I mentioned: @ is the greatest?
00:58:52  elliott: repeatedly, probably
00:58:53  olsner, wasn't there some task dump?
00:59:00  olsner: Insufficiently? I am going to mention it?
00:59:00  tasks? no such thing
00:59:03  @ is the greatest?
00:59:39  Vorpal: that is to say, hardware task-switching is generally recognized as suckage and is dropped in amd64
01:00:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
01:00:10  elliott: Well, he does (to some extent) seem less overtly crazy than, say, Mentifex; and there are some reasonable (from a first glance, anyway) low-level twiddlery there, though of course nothing that'd have anything to do with AI.
01:00:43  olsner: OS task-switching is generally recognised as suckage and is dropped in @
01:01:09  elliott trolling. surprising in oh so many ways.
01:01:19  olsner: i have a knife and your address
01:01:30  olsner, well yes
01:01:35  elliott: wtf, who gave you a knife? and my address?
01:01:42  olsner, I still thought there was some dump-registers thingy
01:01:43  olsner: that's what I want to know!
01:01:57  http://9gag.com/gag/68400/ <-- greatest troll ever
01:02:11  elliott: also, do come visit and chop some vegetables with your knife, we could cook and have fun all night
01:02:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:02:29  Gregor: :D
01:02:41  olsner: pervert, I'm going to call the police
01:03:05  elliott: "a'ight" as they say "in da hood"
01:03:23  olsner: I have trouble believing that you have any relation to or know anything about "da hood"
01:04:05 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:04:14  elliott: I have trouble believing in God, yet he's real
01:04:22  olsner: he is?
01:04:50  not sure, as previously mentioned I have trouble believing
01:05:07  olsner: are you _trying_ to confuse me? :D
01:05:37  am I? really?
01:05:42  fizzie: yay mentifex http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2010/09/sep09mfpj.html
01:05:47  olsner: knife, address
01:06:03  elliott: vegetables, "fun all night"
01:06:14  olsner: saved for future blackmail
01:06:18  nice
01:06:25  fizzie: CARS  WHAT ARE CARS / GUNS  WHAT ARE GUNS / TOOLS  WHAT ARE TOOLS
01:06:28  fizzie: Pure poetry.
01:08:51  Also obvious sentience.
01:09:50  THE  GUNS MAKE  THE  CARS
01:10:14  fizzie: It's referring to the military-industrial complex, dude.
01:14:48  j-invariant: give haskell a better type system please
01:15:56  elliott: HAHA
01:16:05  elliott: haskell is broke, let it die
01:16:15  j-invariant: i'm not about to start writing programs in coq
01:16:16  :p
01:16:26  Coq fails
01:16:26  "There's a feature called "reification" (which the classically-educated will recognise as the Latin for "thingification"), which provides a reflection mechanism."
01:16:31  j-invariant: oh yeah, epigram 2 programs
01:16:34  hurf durf
01:16:38  Epigram 2?
01:17:07  j-invariant: well got another suggestion? :P
01:17:35 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
01:18:36  elliott: There is currently no programming language suitable for actually programming in
01:18:52  j-invariant: i don't think that's true ... you can mostly sling it if you build your own little library of abstractions
01:19:22 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:24:56  @hoogle TypeQ -> Name
01:24:57  Unsafe.Coerce unsafeCoerce :: a -> b
01:24:57  Control.OldException throwDyn :: Typeable exception => exception -> b
01:24:57  Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax bindQ :: Q a -> (a -> Q b) -> Q b
01:25:03  j-invariant: for instance I think Template Haskell is useful :-)
01:29:17  I don't like it
01:29:24  neither do you
01:31:53  maybe I should just give on scheme and implement a new language in haskell
01:32:18  Slate has macros, right?/
01:32:28  [I think I'm putting Atomo down, for now]
01:32:41  Sgeo: nobody is going to know what Slate is in 2 years
01:32:50  (I hope)
01:33:28  java: malloc.c:3684: __libc_malloc: Assertion `!victim || ((((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t)))))->size & 0x2) || ar_ptr == (((((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t)))))->size & 0x4) ? ((heap_info *)((unsigned long)(((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t))))) & ~((2 * (4 * 1024 * 1024 * sizeof(long)))-1)))->ar_ptr : &main_arena)' failed.
01:33:32  I do prefer Atomo's lambda syntax
01:33:33  YAY
01:33:43  I think it's the best I've ever seen
01:33:54  lambda syntax, that's what matters in a language
01:33:57  pikhq: :-D
01:33:59  pikhq: waht jvm?
01:34:01  *what
01:34:13  elliott, note that, despite that, I'm still leaning back towards Slate
01:34:25  Also, lack of a lambda syntax can be.. ticky
01:34:27  elliott: what should I call my caluculator thing?
01:34:33  Computronium?
01:34:35  j-invariant: you mean your dependent CAS?
01:34:39  yeah
01:34:42  Same with a crappy one (ahem ahem Python)
01:35:26  j-invariant: Colony?
01:35:30  j-invariant: justification: dependent -> http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=dependency
01:35:36  -> colony for some reason
01:35:44  j-invariant: also you could say it was like a colony of mathematical definitions??? i dunno :D
01:35:51  hehe
01:35:52  elliott: HotSpot.
01:35:53  i like short, simple names, they don't have to mean much imo
01:36:03  pikhq: note that hotspot is -client only, -server is another VM
01:36:18  j-invariant: "In computer science, coupling or dependency ..." maybe some pun on coupling
01:36:21  It's claiming to be HotSpot server.
01:36:29  j-invariant: Relate, coupling -- relationship, and it like, finds mathematical relations?
01:36:38  j-invariant: so Colony or Relate :P
01:38:23  I can't program without dependent types
01:38:46  NOW IT KEEPS CRASHING.
01:38:51  IT MUST HATE MY MINE
01:38:54  elliott: simple example:  data T = Z | Q, obviously you just defiena function  carrier Z = Integer ; carrier Q = Rational  and everything is easy
01:39:22  j-invariant: that's rather limited since you can't extent T
01:39:23  elliott: (N.B. I can't do the usual  data T x where Z :: T Integer ... because of other stuff)
01:39:28  no?
01:39:33  j-invariant: or wait, is this haskell?
01:39:36  wait obviously not
01:39:45  j-invariant: so how are you approaching this, are you implementing a dependent lang and doing it in that or?
01:39:47  this is an explanation of why haskell is stupid
01:40:36  (N.B. I am well aware that it's /me/ that's stupid, because I can't find any way to program this very simple)
01:40:55  maybe I'll just have  if x /= y then error "IMPOSSIBLE" else ...  everywhere
01:40:56  Has anyone yet made an easily reprogrammable music playing system in MC?
01:41:23  no
01:41:26  it's only been a day
01:41:44  j-invariant: try template haskell :D
01:41:46  j-invariant: alternatively
01:41:58  j-invariant: one way to do more "complex" types that doesn't give compile-time errors but stops you having conditions everywhere
01:41:59  is
01:42:07  module Foo (DataType, mkDataType) where
01:42:15  data DataType = Constructor ...
01:42:24  mkDataType ... | ok = Constructor ...
01:42:29  | otherwise = error "nooooo"
01:42:31  for instance
01:42:35  module Nat (Nat, mkNat) where
01:42:40  newtype Nat = Nat Integer
01:42:44  mkNat n | n >= 0 = Nat n
01:42:53  | otherwise = error "Nat.mkNat: negative natural"
01:43:01  then nothing can access the constructor
01:43:01  oh
01:43:02  you also need
01:43:08  the relevant deriving instances
01:43:12  so you can to toInteger and the like
01:43:13  but yeha
01:43:14  *yeah
01:47:31 -!- amca has joined.
01:48:21  So I think I can actually make a valid claim that "haskells type system is too limiting"
01:48:43  (normally when people say that they are wrong)
01:49:05  You can't embed a more expressive type system into it
01:49:51  obviously :P
01:49:57  so e.g. if you are implementing a language with a more expressive type system, your typechecking (written in haskell) cannot give you a well typed & total evaluator
01:49:58  @hoogle a -> ExpQ
01:50:07  (In fact haskell can not even express its own type system)
01:50:11  j-invariant: the thing is that more expressive type systems have their own problems
01:50:25  elliott: I don't know of any
01:50:35  j-invariant: try and type infer Coq programs
01:50:53  j-invariant: also you get very close very quickly to "oops, my language must be sub-TC for this to work"
01:51:00  and also "oops, I need proofs everywhere to take advantage of this"
01:51:08  and also "oops, everything is really fucking slow to typecheck now"
01:51:12  @help
01:51:13  help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands
01:51:16  @hoogle ExpQ
01:51:18  Language.Haskell.TH type ExpQ = Q Exp
01:51:18  Language.Haskell.TH.Lib type ExpQ = Q Exp
01:51:18  Language.Haskell.TH.Quote dataToExpQ :: Data a => (b -> Maybe (Q Exp)) -> a -> Q Exp
01:51:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:52:03  maybe I am wrong! I hope so
01:52:08  j-invariant: here's a little something i am working on for haskell
01:52:15  I just had a stupid idea that might work
01:52:20  type level GENSYM
01:52:29  {-# LANGUAGE TemplateHaskell #-}
01:52:29  import Foo
01:52:29  validatedType "Nat" "Integer" [| \i -> i >= 0 |]
01:52:37  j-invariant: then
01:52:44  *Main> :browse
01:52:44  newtype Nat = MkNat Integer
01:52:44  mkNat :: Integer -> Nat
01:53:01  *Main> mkNat 3
01:53:01  MkNat 3
01:53:01  *Main> mkNat (-1)
01:53:01  MkNat *** Exception: bad!
01:53:29  j-invariant: obviously I really want it to be like maybeMkNat returning Maybe Nat and then have functions on top of that etc
01:53:38  *etc.
01:54:45  j-invariant: obviously this is runtime-only
01:54:47  but i think it's quite cool
01:55:53  elliott: you could implement this without TH?
01:56:00  j-invariant: how?
01:56:14  j-invariant: well sure you could write out all the functions yourself ... but that's a huge pain
01:56:28  the point is that this defines things like mkMaybeNat, isValidNat, etc.
01:59:01  j-invariant: ?
02:00:34  elliott: not trying to be mean but I don't find that very useful
02:00:45  elliott: I mean just type out the names by hand :P
02:01:06  j-invariant: ok compare:
02:01:29  newtype Nat = MkNat Integer deriving (Eq, Show)
02:01:36  mkMaybeNat :: Integer -> Maybe Nat
02:01:40  mkMaybeNat x
02:01:45    | x >= 0 = Just (MkNat x)
02:01:50    | otherwise = Nothing
02:01:54  mkNat :: Integer -> Nat
02:02:02  mkNat = fromJust . mkMaybeNat
02:02:04  j-invariant: with
02:02:11  validatedType "Nat" "Integer" [| \i -> i >= 0 |]
02:02:49  elliott: well maybe that is useful but it's not exactly a pearl
02:03:05  j-invariant: i mentioned it because it was relevant to what you were saying
02:03:10  j-invariant: wrt continually making checks for validity
02:03:30  oh, how is it?
02:03:46  nobody in #haskell wants to help me :(
02:04:28  j-invariant: you didn't state your problem very clearly in #haskell :)
02:04:34  j-invariant: also, the point is that instead of checking values are valid all the time
02:04:37  you can just build this "gate"
02:04:48  and since all Nats have to come from mkNat, since you don't export MkNat,
02:04:56  you can be sure that every Nat obeys the condition you ste
02:04:57  *set
02:05:09  which is type safety, of a sort: all your internal code can assume and work upon these invariants on the type
02:05:16  it's just that it's actually implemented at runtime
02:05:22  but it should simplify your code a lot
02:07:13  elliott: also someone mentioned "Turing complete" which was annoying
02:07:57  lol don't acll him on it, that will just make things worse
02:08:10  he just hadn't seen what I was trying to explain
02:08:21  thuogh it was kind of a knee-jerk thing
02:08:33  i like calling people on things
02:08:38  X)
02:08:40  j-invariant: but i'll answer your question
02:08:53  j-invariant: stop trying to make everything perfectly type-safe, this isn't how haskell is meant to be done
02:08:59 -!- impomatic has left (?).
02:09:02  elliott: :D
02:09:04  verify that types are essentially write, but handle actual errors as runtime errors, for instance via Maybe
02:09:21  Haskell isn't meant to let you solve all bugs with the type system, that's a design decision, probably a conscious one
02:09:26  So don't try and make it do that for you
02:10:49  I can actually make this work IF there is no type level computation
02:11:00  (on the other hand, I like type level computation..)
02:11:04  j-invariant: try and forget dependent types exist entirely
02:11:08  j-invariant: write your program
02:11:15  j-invariant: and /then/ see what you can do to it
02:11:16  elliott: I tried that, In scheme
02:11:42  j-invariant: do it in haskell
02:11:44  don't forget types exist
02:11:48  just dependent types :)
02:11:49  Didn't work out, someone mentiond "use objects" and I gave up
02:12:00  j-invariant: if you want an abstract syntax tree, make "data MyAST = ..."
02:12:04  j-invariant: if you want an integer, use Integer
02:12:10  j-invariant: avoid type parameters except for generic structures like lists and the like
02:12:12  and use no GADTs
02:12:20  j-invariant: I dare you, try and write your polynomial code like that
02:12:26  j-invariant: this may not be the nicest way to use it
02:12:28  but in Haskell
02:12:30   have to use GADTs :>
02:12:33  it's the only way you're gonna be able to code it
02:12:35  j-invariant: nope, not allowed
02:12:40  j-invariant: remove some type parameters until you don't have to any more
02:13:46 -!- augur has joined.
02:14:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
02:23:06  hi augur
02:23:21  O_O
02:23:25  hey elliott
02:23:30  sup boy
02:23:35  why O_O
02:23:54  ?
02:24:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:24:24  augur
02:24:50  cause!
02:25:00  wat
02:25:37  :D
02:26:10  aggry
02:26:21  eggry
02:32:43  i need to figure out what program to write!
02:34:19  im writing one as we speak!
02:38:36  #math is fucking stupid
02:38:49  they're all doing pseudo-set theory
02:41:19  j-invariant: quotes? :D
02:41:24      Couldn't match expected type `Change t a'
02:41:25             against inferred type `Change t1 a1'
02:41:29  j-invariant: if i get this error it means i'm winning right?
02:41:31  02:42 < Polytope> {x | P} means that x is in the set if and only if P is true.
02:41:31  02:43 < j-invariant> no set theory allows definitions like that
02:41:37        NB: `Change' is a type function, and may not be injective
02:41:46  j-invariant: more, i want more quotes, pastebin! :P
02:41:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:41:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
02:41:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:42:05  02:26 < j-invariant> Axmann: { X subset of Y | P(X) } defines a set
02:42:05  02:26 < j-invariant> Axmann: { X | P(X) } does not
02:43:29      Type declaration in a class must be a kind signature or synonym default
02:43:31  definitely winning
02:43:52  j-invariant: wait a sec
02:43:57  j-invariant: is this the polytope of http://www.bash.org/?4916
02:44:13  dunno
02:44:18  elliott: everyone's being an idoit
02:44:24  j-invariant: i doubt it, he mentioned first-year, so first-year uni student?
02:44:26  that quote is 90s vintage
02:44:38  so he'd have to have said that when he was like
02:44:39  9
02:44:45  elliott: they are doing { x | P(x) } rather than { x in X | P(x) }
02:44:56  elliott: apparently it's easier?
02:45:00  j-invariant: P(x) = x in X /\ Q(x)
02:45:03  Problem? :trollface:
02:45:27  P(x) = x is not in x, problem Frege?
02:45:41  P(x) = not P(x), problem Aristotle?
02:45:53  you can't do that!
02:45:53  why did i say aristotle
02:46:00  j-invariant: isn't #math basically a cesspool anyway
02:46:01  lol
02:46:07  wow holy shit look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
02:46:09  elliott: yeah seems that way, it's frustrating
02:46:09  ugliest fucking logo ever
02:46:14  lol at the mirroring in the box
02:46:15  jesus christ
02:46:22  oh my god look at the featured section what have they done
02:46:28  Today's featured picture
02:46:29  
02:46:29  Jimmy Wales is the co-founder of the online encyclopedia Wikipedia, along with Larry Sanger and others. Wikipedia succeeded an earlier attempt at an encyclopedia called Nupedia, but Nupedia grew slowly because of its onerous submission format, which required articles to be peer reviewed. Sanger was then introduced to the concept of a wiki, and thus Wikipedia was born. Wales continues to serve the Board of Trustees of the non-profit Wikimedia Foun
02:46:29  dation, and he also co-founded Wikia, a for-profit wiki hosting site.
02:46:31  why is that
02:46:32  what is this
02:46:34  is this a joke
02:46:48  todays featured picture http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Jimmy_Wales_Fundraiser_Appeal_edit.jpg
02:46:52  oh LOL you're on it too
02:47:01  * Cannot join #not-not-math (Channel is invite only).
02:47:14  it should redirect to #math
02:47:16  to annoy intuitionists
02:47:27  lol
02:48:11  oh come on haskell
02:48:14  don't be a dumbfuck
02:49:10      Couldn't match expected type `Change t2 a2'
02:49:10             against inferred type `FileChange'
02:49:10        NB: `Change' is a type function, and may not be injective
02:49:15  steadily heading towards failure
02:49:36  j-invariant: i'm going to troll them
02:49:38  badly
02:49:41  for my own amusement
02:49:44  God dammit.
02:49:54  Minecraft crashed. I lost the crate I put my stuff in.
02:50:02  this will not end well
02:50:03  pikhq: :(
02:50:07  pikhq: that happened to me once
02:50:14  I submitted a report
02:50:21  j-invariant: that just submits to apple
02:50:22  lol
02:50:24  j-invariant, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjsWHtkd7Yk
02:50:27  oh wait
02:50:29  you're not on os x
02:50:30  elliott: XD
02:50:35  I emailed it by hand
02:50:38  pikhq: internalise this phrase: Notch quality engineering.
02:50:46  pikhq: Notch, you see, is possibly the worst programer of our time.
02:51:04   Minecraft crashed. I lost the crate I put my stuff in. <-- since when did you start playing minecraft? :D
02:51:13  Today!
02:51:18  pikhq: He got a good idea, somehow managed to develop it to near its current state (recent improvements have been by Jeb, who is competent), and then went into an ETERNAL LOOP OF FAIL.
02:51:23  pikhq: For instance. A quote.
02:51:37  pikhq: [[Oh, and I’ve finally committed the Music Blocks to the repository.
02:51:37  (Oh, wait, no, I didn’t.. Doing so broke git, so we’re changing to svn because git is horrible and evil)]]
02:51:57  pikhq: When Beta first came out, in multiplayer, when you died, items would *duplicate*.
02:52:03  You would get two of everything you own lying around.
02:52:11  But only half of them could be picked up.
02:52:11  j-invariant, see that link!
02:52:14  elliott: what the hell just happened lol
02:52:21  pikhq: Additionally, leaf decay meant that single-player games ran at about 5 fps.
02:52:23  Vorpal: oops how did I miss that
02:52:35  pikhq: We are almost entirely certain that Notch does not even try and run the game before pushing updates.
02:52:54  Vorpal: WOW!!! Meta :D
02:53:41  Ah well.
02:53:52  All I lost was wood and cobblestone.
02:54:02  j-invariant, indeed. There was harry potter theme on youtube too. Played manually
02:54:11  j-invariant, by walking sideways and hitting timed blocks
02:54:15  I
02:54:18  pikhq: what's your base
02:54:19  Vorpal: this one is great though
02:54:22  've been hollowing out a mountain.
02:54:22  as in what type
02:54:25  ah
02:54:40  And mining the hell out of it.
02:54:52  I'm playing on peaceful, though.
02:55:13  pikhq: laaame
02:55:16  wtf
02:55:19  j-invariant, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f1ofoKylN4
02:55:19  pikhq: real men play on hard
02:55:20  also real women
02:55:21  and fake men
02:55:23  there was a skeleton that killed me IN BROAD DAYLIGHT
02:55:24  but not fake women
02:55:28  j-invariant: xD
02:55:32  j-invariant: it just didn't want to burn
02:55:37  j-invariant: if trees shelter them
02:55:40  they can avoid burning
02:55:42  j-invariant, rather expertly played I have to say considering the limits of minecraft. I played that melody on piano
02:55:42  but not if they step out
02:56:21  Vorpal: have you seen the CPU?
02:56:29  yes, he has.
02:56:50  aaaaargh fuckyoufuckyoufuckyoufuckyou FUCK GHC
02:56:53  j-invariant, yes I have even downloaded and played with it locally
02:57:02  YOU ARE NOT DOING THINGS I WANT YOU TO DO, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THESE THINGS ARE UNREASONABLE
02:57:08  I DISLIKE THIS FACET OF YOU
02:57:50  Vorpal: oh really! I tried that.. didn't work for me
02:58:15  Vorpal: I thnink the savegame format has been changed recently
02:58:21  j-invariant, no it hasn't
02:58:22  folderized
02:58:24  Vorpal: hm
02:58:27  j-invariant, it likely will though
02:58:29  it changed a looong time ago
02:58:30  Vorpal: Then I am an idiot
02:58:32  j-invariant, did you unpack the zip?
02:58:36  Vorpal: the RAR
02:58:39  oh right
02:58:40  the rar
02:58:41  whatever
02:58:57  Vorpal: I'm being precise because the mistake is probably a very small detail
02:59:13  j-invariant, oh right. unrar?
02:59:19  yeah
02:59:25  j-invariant, you need to tell it to unpack with folder structure preserved
02:59:30  j-invariant, rather than unpack flat
02:59:33  yes this is stupid
02:59:41  check docs. iirc it is x instead of e
02:59:41  I blame unrar :P
02:59:43  not myself
02:59:44  or something like that
02:59:48  j-invariant, same
03:00:35  holy shit, it works
03:01:03  well, sorta...
03:01:59  j-invariant, if you ever played zelda oot you will find this awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRUSF3IlFqY
03:02:41  Vorpal: one question.. how do you find all these videos so quickly?
03:02:52  j-invariant, by searching youtube!
03:02:52  reddit.com/r/minecraft
03:02:56  elliott, no
03:03:02  some I found there
03:03:05  but not most
03:03:06  I want to make these boxes
03:03:07  you will notice it taking up 90% of your reddit time soon
03:03:21  j-invariant, can you tell him not for all cases
03:03:36  Meanwhile, nine year old girls play Minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/KPI02.jpg
03:03:51  I like how the idea of a minecart floating in the void was scrapped.
03:04:04  elliott:
03:04:05  03:03 < Axmann> so if {x | x is an integer above zero}, then |8|?
03:04:05  03:03 < Axmann> that 8=infinity
03:04:10  elliott: Misson accomplished
03:04:22  j-invariant: wait what xD
03:04:54   8*2i = oo
03:04:58  j-invariant: {troll}
03:05:28  Vorpal: Cool! It's working
03:07:46  j-invariant, happy to be of service
03:08:00  # C  [r600_dri.so+0x55d0c]  radeonEmitVec4+0x4c
03:08:02  ARGH
03:08:10  It's hitting a bug in my driver.
03:08:20  pikhq: :-D
03:08:51  j-invariant: what, they're actually listening to me ...
03:09:03  j-invariant: assure me that #math is never worthwhile, because I'm on the road to a ban
03:09:41  02:45 < j-invariant> I thought this was #math, not #interpretive-dance
03:10:44 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:11:45  3:14 maybe I should go to bed
03:11:49  pikhq, ouch
03:12:07  pikhq, should have gotten yourself nvidia or intel :P
03:12:43  j-invariant, 04:15: I agree
03:12:46  j-invariant: i'm not going to bed so you shouldn't either, that's like
03:12:48  a fundamental law of nature
03:12:48  night →
03:12:59  elliott: Some people have to get up in the morning
03:13:17  (I'm not one of them)
03:13:19  j-invariant: what a strange concept
03:13:40  j-invariant: anyone who has to get up in the morning on saturday probably has a terrible life i figure, so being sleep-deprived shouldn't make things significantly worse
03:13:42  ergo what i said stands
03:14:38  LOL
03:14:39  pikhq: I suggest switching to another driver, Minecraft takes precedence over all
03:14:40  so harsh
03:14:50  pikhq: I would redesign @ to be able to support a JVM if it couldn't, just so it could run Minecraft
03:17:53 * pikhq just won Minecraft.
03:18:13  Build a tiny room from wood planks. VICTORY SHALL BE YOURS.
03:18:41  :O
03:19:16  pikhq: ...?
03:19:29  copumpkin! O_O
03:19:34  YOU BASTARD
03:19:36  Mobs can't get you. Voila, you are immortal.
03:19:36  ?
03:19:47  sup dude
03:19:54  yo yo
03:19:54  since when do you come here
03:20:02  augur: I'm just stalking you
03:20:06  :>
03:20:09  <3
03:20:23  nah, I intend to murder you
03:20:28  but to do so I must first learn your habits
03:20:32  D:
03:20:38  pikhq: um i just mentioned how to win
03:20:39  also months ago
03:20:39  well
03:20:45  elliott can explain my habits to you
03:20:50  pikhq: you can do it with only taking two blocks
03:21:00  MURTHER!
03:21:05  pikhq: in fact, you can win in seconds
03:21:06  pikhq: let me tell you how
03:21:09  pikhq: find a dirt hill
03:21:14  pikhq: take two blocks vertically from the ground
03:21:15  pikhq: step inside
03:21:16  pikhq: turn around
03:21:22  pikhq: place them in front of you facing outside
03:21:25  congratulations, you win Minecraft!
03:21:34  what are the criteria for winning?
03:21:42  copumpkin: being safe forever, obviously
03:21:49  copumpkin: if there's nothing more to fight, obviously you win the game
03:21:51  that's how games work
03:21:57  after you do the final boss, that's it, no more game, you win
03:22:05  in this case, the final boss is two dirt blocks
03:23:25 -!- nooga has joined.
03:24:24  pikhq: still playing peaceful like a wimp?
03:24:46  elliott: I won on hard!
03:24:55  pikhq: Hard isn't actually very hard vs. normal
03:24:56  mmmm weetabix
03:25:06  pikhq: Really, if you have a house, you're fine; and you can even go around at night with a sword and armour.
03:25:19  elliott, even a wooden sword?
03:25:20  Just makes mining more interesting :P
03:25:27  And wooden armor?
03:25:28  Sgeo: Sure, but why would you make wooden anything?
03:25:31  elliott: BUT I MUST REMOVE ALL THE STONE FROM INSIDE THIS MOUNTAIN
03:25:32  There is no wooden armour.
03:25:36  pikhq: You can do that on hard.
03:25:48  elliott, because you haven't started mining yet
03:25:50  pikhq: to make the hall of the mountain king
03:25:59  Sgeo: You make one pickaxe, take three stone, and you have a stone pickaxe.
03:26:04  Congratulations, you never need to use wood tools ever again.
03:26:31  elliott, unless you're careless and run out of stone pickaxe usage and stones
03:26:37  Sgeo: That is impossible.
03:26:38  ... *Run out of stones*?
03:26:47  A stone pickaxe lasts for enough time to mine hundreds and hundreds of cobbles.
03:27:04  If you ever go "oops, out of cobbles, have to make a wood pickaxe", congratulations -- you are the first person to actually *lose* Minecraft.
03:27:54  comex: so are you a minecraft-head too or are you just here for the esoteric languages nobody ever speaks about?
03:28:30  Anyone want to shoot comex with an alarm clock?
03:28:41  copumpkin: he's just in here because of ircnomic
03:28:44  ...to some approximation
03:29:01  i don't actually know if comex does esolangs, but he never really talks, so, we just kinda accept him
03:29:03  he's cool
03:29:07  elliott, surely you mean Canada
03:29:23  Eff you!
03:29:25  elliott: he used to use an uncommon language, at least
03:29:26  He's a pretty cool guy though. He doesn't afraid of anything!
03:29:31  not sure I'd call it esoteric :P
03:29:32  copumpkin: What, Python?
03:29:36  nah, nimrod
03:29:45  Ne'r heard of it.
03:29:52  Oh, that thing.
03:30:01  That terrible-looking thing.
03:30:24  copumpkin: All comex's code that I've seen has been Python at least
03:30:27  Bayes was Python.
03:30:55  he's occasionally shown a tiny bit of interest in haskell
03:31:00  which is pretty esoteric
03:31:18 * copumpkin wonders if talking about comex for long enough will un-afk him
03:31:46  yeah i think he's written...one haskell program?
03:31:52  which one?
03:32:30  xD
03:33:03  damn Boston public transport
03:33:11  I want to get to the airport tomorrow morning
03:33:14  for a flight at 6:50
03:33:27  and the bus to get to the airport starts up at 5:50
03:33:27  copumpkin: Yeeaaah, good luck with that.
03:33:29  look at that
03:33:34  a person who needs to be up on Saturday
03:33:39  j-invariant: ha ha, let's laugh at him
03:33:48  hehe
03:33:50  elliott: hey, I get to go to warm places, at least :)
03:33:54  it's fucking cold here
03:33:54  I'm planning on waking up early on Saturday
03:34:03  Assuming she contacts me tonight
03:34:06  it sucks how everyone who asks a programming question seems to get an answer, except nobody knows how to solve my thing
03:34:06  copumpkin: i want to live in iceland, i can't really relate
03:34:15  j-invariant: your question is wrong :D
03:34:21  copumpkin: Boston's public transport is positively nice for "sane" hours. If you happen to need to be along the right routes.
03:34:28  in the context of haskell
03:34:37  copumpkin: 6:50 AM on Saturday? Weep!
03:34:38  pikhq: yeah, except I live and work on the green line
03:34:42  What's j-invariant's question?
03:34:46  copumpkin: Ouch.
03:34:52  elliott: a colleague of mine is from iceland!
03:34:57  and I'm listening to icelandic music right now
03:34:59  zomg
03:35:01  copumpkin: wait wait wait let me guess their name
03:35:04  copumpkin: either
03:35:04  Sgeo: how do I do such and such
03:35:06  copumpkin: X Yson
03:35:07  copumpkin: or
03:35:09  Sofuckingslow.
03:35:13  copumpkin: X Ydottir
03:35:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:35:16  lol
03:35:18  none of that
03:35:35  *dóttir
03:35:39  no
03:35:42  copumpkin: er are you sure, isn't that how icelandic names are formed :P
03:35:46  lol
03:35:50  there's a grammar for them?
03:35:57 * copumpkin builds an enumerator
03:36:06  now, I have a tough question
03:36:09  maybe you guys can help me
03:36:24  Mayhaps.
03:36:26  I just ate 3 (THREE) weetabix. Should I eat more?
03:36:29  copumpkin: well er,
03:36:42  copumpkin: it's [Firstname] [Parentfirstname][son|dóttir]
03:36:48  what's their name, I'd be very surprised if it didn't fit that?
03:36:54  son is indeed the suffix
03:37:21  copumpkin: then "X Yson" is correct, as i said
03:37:34  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name
03:37:44  oh, I didn't realize your uppercase was a free variable
03:38:06  heh
03:38:09  hi, my name is ecks whyson
03:38:20  lol
03:38:31  elliott: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like trying to guess if the sun's going to come up tomorrow.
03:38:42  pikhq: wut
03:38:50  Dagur Bergþóruson Eggertsson
03:38:59  that's some name
03:39:06  yep
03:39:06  elliott: Guessing that -son or -dóttir is the suffix for a Icelandic name.
03:39:13  copumpkin: congratulations, you know the mayor of reykjavik
03:39:20  *reykjavík
03:39:21  I'm good
03:39:28  erm ex-mayor
03:39:37  so, about the important question
03:39:43  does anyone have any thoughts?
03:40:04  what question
03:40:19  THE FUCKING WEETABIX
03:40:22  oh
03:40:25  eat more weetabix
03:40:29  with maple syrup
03:40:31  really?
03:40:32  I ate three
03:40:35  (everything should be combined with maple syrup)
03:40:35  copumpkin will ate 40 weetabix. That's as many as four tens! And that's terrible.
03:40:39  (also bacon)
03:40:39  I haven't had them with maple syrup
03:40:43  and chocolate
03:40:45  simultaneously
03:41:00  bacon with melted chocolate dripped in maple syrup is probably close to being liquid happiness-inflictor
03:41:14  well apart from not being liquid
03:41:15  that's one failing
03:41:19  elliott: Surprisingly, bacon and chocolate do in fact go together very well.
03:41:25  pikhq: i have this bacon chocolate here
03:41:26  it's amazing
03:41:29  fucking amazing
03:41:32  restored my faith in god
03:41:33  you know what also goes with bacon?
03:41:35  Unless you're Jewish. In which case you're fucked.
03:41:37  more bacon?
03:41:37  balsamic vinegar
03:41:42  no, you're wrong, the answer is more bacon
03:41:50  strangely enough
03:41:50  well, that too
03:41:52  Baconic vinegar?
03:41:57  copumpkin: vinegar + maple syrup!!!
03:42:00  THE BEST WORST THING EVER
03:42:05  guido thinks it's unbaconic
03:42:11  heh
03:42:23  elliott: does the Type 1 font program language count as esoteric?
03:42:27  I need it for this exploit.
03:42:32  (ssshhh)
03:42:35  comex: no, sry
03:42:44  it's a pretty good example of a turing tarpit
03:42:45  :]
03:42:47  comex: I totally won't tell anyone what it is if you say it in this publicly-logged channel.
03:42:54 * copumpkin tweets it
03:43:01  copumpkin won't tweet it either
03:43:03  so go ahead
03:43:09  why not? :(
03:43:13  I want some fame too
03:43:22  because it's secret! you can tweet it in a few minutes.
03:43:31 * copumpkin sets a countdown timer
03:43:37 * copumpkin goes and fetches more weetabix
03:43:39  x.x
03:43:55 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:43:59  I'm not even kidding, though; it feels like writing in an esolang.
03:44:07 -!- quintopia has joined.
03:44:13  comex: EXCUSE ME SORRY TELL US WHAT THE EXPLOIT IS OR GET BANNED
03:44:22  famous people are allowed in here only if they give us inside scoops
03:44:34  or money
03:44:53  I don't think Notch would be allowed here even if he gave us both
03:45:16  Maybe if he gave us a LOT of money.
03:45:38  why wouldn't he?
03:45:44  copumpkin: because he can't fucking code
03:45:52  oh?
03:45:53  and he has the piece of shit autoupdate to more broken versions constantly without warning
03:46:06  and he said git is horrible and evil and switched to svn because he fucked something up
03:46:10  and and and he "frowns upon" modders and
03:46:12  lol
03:46:14  he is the most hateful person
03:46:27  yeah but he's rich
03:46:31  yes
03:46:32  and in my land, that means he's good
03:46:38  and he can't even fucking hire developers to code minecraft properly
03:46:47  he hired devs ... to code on his supersekrit new project
03:46:55  rather than, you know, the game people actually fucking play
03:47:24  Didn''t a non-Notch person work on the new update?
03:47:26  in my land, that just means he's going to try to get richer
03:47:28  yes
03:47:29  Jeb
03:47:30  which means he's even gooder
03:47:35  copumpkin: your land is strange
03:47:40  Sgeo: the only non-Notch coder working on MC
03:47:43  and also seemingly competent
03:48:07  he basically did the whole new update
03:48:08  which was good
03:48:12  Would I be an improvement or a ... opposite
03:48:12  success = good and money = success
03:48:14  From Notch
03:48:15  more evidence that notch is a oajgoidfjg
03:48:18  if you are poor, you are a bad person
03:48:20  Sgeo: um i don't even want to think about that
03:48:25  copumpkin: good to know!
03:48:39  copumpkin: i'm just going to assume you're joking even though this is the internet
03:49:03  I'm going to assume that you assume that because you're poor
03:49:09  cause good people wouldn't assume that
03:49:18  i'm actually gandhi
03:49:26  I'm not even going to bother making the obvious Star Trek comparision
03:49:27  yeah, the worst person in history
03:49:41  Sgeo: what.
03:49:47  no star trek comparison is ever obvious
03:50:01  now that I have consumed more weetabix
03:50:02  elliott: what.
03:50:09  and am relatively replete
03:50:12  copumpkin: eat more
03:50:14  bitch
03:50:16  This one is.
03:50:16  I have another profound question
03:50:22  okay
03:50:23  shoot
03:50:32  should I sleep a bit and then wake up to go to the airport
03:50:42  or just stay up as late as I normally do, and not sleep at all
03:50:46  copumpkin: latter
03:50:47  way more fun
03:50:50  meh
03:50:52 * Sgeo decides that he's the wrong person to answer the question
03:50:53  you will RULE the plane
03:50:54  look
03:50:55  copumpkin: ALSOALSO
03:50:58  Minecraft is a Java applet
03:50:58  but then I'll want to sleep tomorrow
03:51:01  copumpkin: you can eat more weetabix
03:51:03  you don't need to say anything else
03:51:04  in the meantime
03:51:05  and I only have a couple of days out there
03:51:08  comex: it's not an applet
03:51:08  well it is
03:51:11  but nobody uses the applet...
03:51:14  you can't mod it or anything
03:51:16  so it seems like a waste to fly away and sleep there
03:51:16  or even use texture packs
03:51:20  or adjust the resolution
03:51:23  why would anyone even use the applet
03:51:33  copumpkin: sleep on the plane
03:51:39  copumpkin: problem solved
03:51:39  it's only three hours or so
03:51:47  copumpkin: good enough!
03:51:52  s/ applet//
03:51:55  my statement is still valid
03:51:59  I need 18 hours of beauty sleep
03:52:00  comex: Minecraft is A java?!?!?!
03:52:03  (the beauty is somewhat lacking)
03:52:05  You don't have to make random transfers on the plai1
03:52:06  :'
03:52:07  copumpkin: don't sleep ever
03:52:23  copumpkin: more fucking weetabix
03:52:23  now
03:52:24  god damn
03:52:26  Plail. PLAIL.
03:52:32  copumpkin: WEETABIX
03:52:36 * copumpkin forcefeeds elliott WEETABIX
03:52:37  me finds this hilarious
03:52:40  no
03:52:43  forcefeed YOURSELF
03:53:12  elliott `>> [ clone. ]
03:53:13  copumpkin: EAT SOME FUCKING WEETABIX FUCKFACE
03:53:20 * copumpkin hides
03:53:29  Wait.
03:53:36  Why would I ever, ever do that
03:53:43  Give elliott even 1 clone-child
03:53:56 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX FUCKING WEETABIX.
03:54:02  ....that sounded far, far wronger than I meant
03:54:07 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX, FUCKING WEETABIX.
03:54:14  to preempt sgeo
03:54:17  copumpkin: WEETABIX OR BUST
03:54:28  wha?
03:55:13 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:55:47  :o
03:56:07  weetafux
03:56:08  okay you convinced me
03:56:11  copumpkin: WEETABIX OR WEETABIX
03:56:11  YAY
03:56:12  MORE WEETABIX
03:56:14  i never understood why people ate that
03:56:16  I'll eat more weetabix
03:56:21  cheater00: they're yummy
03:56:23  :)))))
03:56:35  it's like a piece of wasa bread
03:56:37  in your milk
03:56:46  soaked
03:56:49  and soggy
03:56:54  copumpkin: i have a
03:56:54  yumy
03:56:55  i could never get it, maybe i'm using them wrong
03:56:55  serving suggestion
03:56:58  for your weetabix
03:57:00  serve it with more weetabix
03:57:03  I have no bacon
03:57:15  i just put them in the milk and it gets soggy and crappy and boring
03:57:21  the weetabix thing that is
03:58:15  copumpkin
03:58:18  make my function prettier
03:58:20  /more efficient
03:58:30  ordering cs =
03:58:30    let (g,v2n,n2v) =
03:58:30          Graph.graphFromEdges . Set.toList . Set.map (\c -> (c, c, deps c)) $ cs
03:58:30    in reverse . map (\v -> case v2n v of (c,_,_) -> c) . Graph.topSort $ g
03:58:36  right now it relies on changes themselves being Ord
03:58:40  since they're used as the key
03:58:42  which is bleh :(
03:59:11  graphs suck
03:59:13  It's sad that the only language or platform that has solved the module issue to my satisfaction thus far is JAVA
03:59:17  Fucking JAVA
03:59:17  I'm going to make them suck less in haskell someday
03:59:23  but for now, I can't, sorry
03:59:29  if java has solved your module issue
03:59:31  your issue is wrong
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03:59:50  copumpkin: i don't really mind the api, i just want you to fix the function :(
04:00:03  NO
04:00:05  maybe i'll abstract a way a change-ref (i.e. object id) and use that as the key.
04:00:11  which i have to do anyway
04:00:12  but
04:00:13  Java has no conflicting packages whose names are the same
04:00:14  it would be so ugly
04:00:21  Or at least, if people weren't idiots, it wouldn't
04:00:25  Sgeo: yes it does
04:00:28  foo.org.blah
04:00:29  foo.org expires
04:00:31  Why can I not make a warning about converting a integer to a pointer without a cast, into error, without making other warnings also errors?
04:00:32  new owner takes it up
04:00:33  Ooh
04:00:34  foo.org.blah
04:00:39  OH SNAP
04:00:56  Sgeo: the only solution to your problem is having the cryptographic hash of the API be the hash's name (tuomov has proposed this solution)
04:01:58  Sgeo: what about python?
04:03:09  Can you just use #line if you want the compiler to emit an error message for compile-time-assertions?
04:03:21  (Such as arrays that conditionally have negative size)
04:03:31  (I have tried this, and it works)
04:04:14  The command in the new C specification that says you can make compile-time-assertions is unnecessary, I think.
04:05:01  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcvyaGhc1mg
04:05:31  pure awesome
04:05:32  elliott, there's another solution, that I think Newspeak is heading in
04:05:45  Sgeo: being?
04:05:49  Have names not need to be unique within a system.
04:06:19  Sgeo: that doesn't really solve any problem unless you're more specific.
04:06:42  Sgeo: What are you trying to make?
04:07:03  Suppose you have two packages named Foobar. No packakages that use either Foobar have the name Foobar forcefully encoded in
04:07:07  Just as documentation
04:07:23  The user might call one copy of Foobar Foobar_to_do_this and the other Foobar_to_do_that
04:07:26 -!- azaq23 has joined.
04:07:36  Hook each up to wherever it needs to go in the IDE
04:07:37  Sgeo: The problem is, of course, that every time you use a module at the top level, you have to give it EVERY FUCKING MODULE THERE IS.
04:08:38  No, just the ones it needs. And if you don't have duplicate names in a system yet, the IDE does it automatically perhaps
04:08:57  Sgeo: (1) That's what I meant. Consider something that needs 30 modules.
04:09:26  Sgeo: (2) So basically, duplicate names are REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING to the point where you'd never want them anyway (and you're handwaving language issues by diverting them to some "IDE" that is well beyond the well-defined accepted scope of an IDE)
04:10:06  elliott: In what programming language? Java?
04:10:12  Newspeak.
04:10:30  Note: I am not on the Newspeak team. Just imagining where I think it would go
04:10:51  OK I found it on Wikipedia now.
04:11:22  elliott, instead of saying "IDE", is a config file better?
04:11:29  Sgeo: No, not really.
04:11:34  Name conflicts are still a horrific pain with that system.
04:11:46  elliott, at least they can be dealt with
04:11:53  For instance, a module can't use a module X, and also use another module that wants a different module called X.
04:11:55  Sgeo: They shouldn't be.
04:12:20  elliott, yes, it can?
04:12:24  (I avoid using Google whenever possible, so sometimes I search for things on Wikipedia instead.)
04:12:28  No, it can't?
04:13:13  Hook up other module's X to the X it wants, and main module's X to the X it wants
04:13:41  I see, so you get a horrible tangle if two commonly-used modules use different modules named X.
04:13:48  Not to mention that EVEN IF YOU CONFIGURE IT CORRECTLY,
04:13:57  you're going to have a world of confusion as you try and talk about it:
04:14:04  "So X1 does blah, and ..." "Which one is X1 again?"
04:14:08  "The one that does X." "They both do X."
04:14:17  That is why they need to add a command to rename modules.
04:14:23  "Uhh, the one that Poophead wrote." "Oh. Is that the one with the API that looks like turds or the API that looks like turdy turds?"
04:14:25  "Turdy turds."
04:14:35  "*looks at the code* No, that's the other one."
04:14:36  "Oops."
04:14:42  (Like the ALIAS command in Visual Basic, I guess.)
04:18:00  elliott, so it's not perfect, it can still be better than the rest
04:18:08  Not really.
04:18:16  I don't remember the last time I actually saw a naming conflict.
04:18:27  I have to wonder why you are obsessed with them.
04:19:02  Because the idea of their existence horrifies me
04:19:12  Horrifies.
04:19:15  Are you sure you want to use that word.
04:19:19  Does it not strike you as too strong
04:19:41  Does the word hyperbole strike you as a bit too..
04:20:10  Considering you've talked about some random pseudoscientific book as making you physically ill, I really don't think I can assume hyperbole any more.
04:23:33  I wonder if the archive of tuomov's blog is complete.
04:23:52  Perhaps I could ask tuomov for the missing posts if not.
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04:37:57  Sgeo: Here is tuomov's post about APIs and modules. http://tuomov.bitcheese.net/b/archives/2007/07/16/T22_41_22
04:41:15  Sgeo: You should read it.
04:41:20  I a
04:41:21  am
04:42:17  Yeah, the archive is not complete it seems ...
04:43:42 * Sgeo is tired
04:43:48  And not in the best of moods
04:43:49  Less tired, more reading!
04:45:13  Oh man, scapegoat is gonna rock.
04:49:22  http://bugs.darcs.net/issue64 <-- finally fucking resolved
04:49:23  Sgeo: Read it?
04:49:28  YES
04:49:34  Sgeo: Enlightened?
04:49:34  I DID
04:49:38  Sgeo: Enlightened?
04:49:45  I don't care right now
04:50:09  Darcs is anti-tf8?
04:50:12  Oh, you said resulved
04:50:14  ressolved
04:50:17  fuck it
04:50:38  o_O
04:50:41  Sgeo: You seem...disturbed.
04:50:50  She's still not online
04:52:47  Missing the bus and calling at the last limit ... (presumably) implying she'd be online and then not being so... Hmmmmmmmm.
04:52:49  I am going to sleep now.
04:53:04 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:53:15  She didn't know that it takes me so long to get to the mall
04:54:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: I need silence right now).
04:56:43  ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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05:34:02  I need a new graphics card.
05:34:07 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
05:34:49  With ATi, I've got a choice of: slightly unstable drivers, or slightly unstable drivers *that fucking glitch like crazy* (those being the "official" drivers).
05:39:03  Seriously, the official drivers suck balls.
05:40:19  i believed you the first time
05:40:53  quintopia: It needs to be said often.
05:41:28  Also, Flash is a monstrosity and Adobe should be murdered for it.
05:41:53  I don't care if it's impractical to murder an international megacorp, either!
05:44:11  well, bombing their headquarters doesn't seem so infeasible at least
05:45:52  < sean_> inglip would kick zalgo's ass
05:46:03  what shall i tell him?
05:48:20  quickly, bring pie
05:50:04  Hah... Another piece of drivel promoting fantasy "mediterrainian diet".
05:52:27  "extra virgin olive oil and canola oil in place of saturated and trans fats" ... Yeah, right... Maybe they use _some_ olive oil (cold-pressed)... But sure no rancid-at-the-shelves canola/rapeseed oil...
05:53:04  And then there's the French paradox...
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06:05:43  French Paradox: Why do French have so little heart disease even if their saturated fat consumption is so high?
06:07:43  Answer: correlation ≠ causation.
06:17:36  I'm certain my away message is a quote from some Simpsons book, a guide to either Simpsons episodes or to Springfield
06:17:40  But Google turns up nothing
06:17:41  :(
06:17:43  Night all
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06:39:14  GAH!
06:40:22  Star Wars trilogies are getting yet *another* modified rerelease. Though the prequels probably can't be made much *worse* by Lucas, I wonder how fucking awful he's going to be to the original trilogy this time.
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07:10:43  Lagerholm estimate is now below 7 days... The estimate for today will come in about 1.5 hours... But I doubt it is going to be more optimistic...
07:10:54  Current burnrate in used /8 per month: 1.84
07:16:32  HURRR... http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/fig25.png
07:16:47  Is that some sort of data processing error???
07:18:16  And for extra fun, APNIC seems to be handing out about half of the addresses...
07:26:54  Probably more pessimistic, if anything.
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08:42:04  Now the estimate is today (of course, being Saturday, it is not likely that anything happens before monday...
08:42:48  Last 5 days large allocations: 6.5Mi
08:45:46  Okay, these predictions are quite messed up...
08:49:49  The fastest case is APNIC having requested the blocks on Friday (and IANA has not yet processed the request...)
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09:16:46  Been discussing Weetabix, have we?
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09:39:57  Lagerholm estimate is today.
09:40:01  Wow.
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10:21:40  Wow, they already updated Painterly.
10:21:50  That is astonishing.
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10:40:00  suck
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13:27:03  o
13:27:07  hi ais, how's up
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14:43:14  YouTube comments will never cease to destroy my faith in humanity.
14:44:00  Example?
14:44:28  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEATei2wewY&feature=related
14:44:39  First listen to the soundtrack. Then read the comments.
14:45:32  Half of them are right-wing screeching.
14:51:19  I was wondering where I heard that song
14:59:48  Heh... I just remembered that my earlier estimate of IANA IPv4 depletion estimate was mid-January... Lagerholm estimate is now "any moment now"...
15:01:12  How do we know when it happens?
15:01:34  i'm pretty sure it'll be all over reddit
15:09:26  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IaJ8bec8fg
15:09:29  Is that a bug?
15:10:10  Sgeo, if that's not been fixed, it's insanely useful.
15:10:24  It has been fixed. Damn.
15:10:31  Linky?
15:13:22  Meh
15:13:39  Sgeo, look at the comments.
15:13:50  On a different vid: "I don't know why this never occurred to me. What a great method. xD Once buckets are fixed in multiplayer, I'm going to use this on the obsidian tower I'm building."
15:13:58  What's wrong with buckets in multiplayer?
15:14:21  They were a bit unreliable IIRC.
15:18:20  Exactly how mathematical is the average CS curriculum?
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15:34:04  I don't know about average, but here it's: not very, unless you deliberately choose courses to make it so.
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16:03:15  ineiros, have you updated the server yet?
16:03:29 * Sgeo is in a good mood
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16:10:44  Sgeo, does it turn out that KT-AT plays AW as well?
16:10:53  No
16:11:06  Although I did show her Cybertown a while ago
16:11:09  Wait, no. If that were the case, Sgeo would be far too busy being paralysed with joy.
16:11:10  Just briefly though
16:11:18  Sgeo, oh god.
16:12:04  EXTREMELY GOOD ADVICE: do NOT attempt to serenade her. Particularly not with "I see a red robe and I want to paint it black".
16:12:28  I don't know if she was bored. I do know she was once bored when I was describing some computer thing. And it's not like we haven't done anything that bored me
16:13:08  Sgeo, you are only allowed to liveblog in the event of impending trollpocalypse.
16:13:49  Did I ever mention the time that I took a journal to school and wrote about what happened as, or shortly after, it happened?
16:16:19  wow
16:16:29  that sounds like the most boring journal ever
16:16:58  Particularly given Sgeo's academic career.
16:17:12  Not boring
16:17:14  I think
16:17:21  i.e. being sent to a 5th-rate college because his dad is a total smeghead.
16:17:21  But you'd think I was a pervert perhaps
16:17:29  Also, this was in highschool
16:17:55  Sgeo, o god please tell me you weren't writing down your fantasies.
16:18:19  and please say they didn't involve urination
16:20:40  fungot, please tell me he wasn't writing down his urolagnic fantasies.
16:20:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:20:40  Phantom_Hoover: this program is linked into the market-o-matic, thinking that i claim no special effort to keep solaris his sign of the
16:20:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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16:21:08  fungot, please tell me he wasn't writing down his urolagnic fantasies.
16:21:08  Phantom_Hoover: claimed that the victim) subject:re: `which foo` error message
16:21:43  Oh, right.
16:21:49  Effing connection.
16:22:30  "Today, 3/9/07, begins my Era of Documentation. A while ago, my Dad told me not to use LiveJournal as a private journal. I wish I disobeyed him sooner."
16:22:55  should have listened to him :/
16:23:13  and here in turku it's even less mathematical than in helsinki
16:23:16  cs
16:23:20  Why is this computer unable to competently hold onto a wireless network.
16:23:26  afaiu
16:23:52  Phantom_Hoover: why no wired connection
16:24:01  Phantom_Hoover, when I'm on Linux and at school, I have the same problem
16:24:17  Wow, Weetabix looks extremely gross :P
16:24:37  quintopia, because I live in a hundred-year-old house and as such it was not designed with easy Ethernet cable access in mind.
16:24:37  "Here is a dense, solid block of cereal product. Digest it."
16:24:58  Phantom_Hoover: oh i know how that goes :/
16:25:11  Sgeo, wait, you actually disobeyed your father over something>
16:25:20  Gregor: no u look like a solid block
16:25:25  Since 2007 or so, all the time
16:25:43  Sgeo, before or after you let him pick your college?
16:25:53  Slightly before
16:25:59  Gregor: Holy crap, it's Industrial Food Product.
16:26:11  I didn't say I disobey him on everything
16:26:13  Well. More so than the rest of an American diet.
16:26:29  Just things like having my name on Facebook, talking to people about him, etc.
16:26:40  Sgeo, it's called Farmingdale.
16:26:42  Farming. Dale.
16:27:09  They thought "Farming" did not indicate how rustic they were.
16:27:19  So they stuck "dale" on the end.
16:27:23 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
16:27:43  That alone should indicate that you ignore anyone who says it's a good place to study computers.
16:28:04  well computer science is a bit gay anyway
16:28:06  ... He goes to a college called *Farmingdale*?
16:28:09  Yes.
16:28:13  it sounds like a knock-off social networking game
16:28:13  oklopol: Farming is not.
16:28:22  Gregor: it's a man's job!
16:28:25  pikhq, no, it's located in a place called Farmingdale
16:28:40  Sgeo, the point still stands.
16:28:49  i'm not sure what that was an argument for, exactly
16:29:03  oklopol: And there's nothing more manly than a man in another man's embrace!
16:29:08 -!- Behold has joined.
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16:29:22  Sgeo: My intelligence informs me that it's SUNY Farmingdale, or formerly, Long Island Agricultural and Technical Institute.
16:29:28  let's all give up computers, move to PA, stop shaving our beards, and farm!
16:29:57  oklopol: Computer science is gay? Okay, then. Where's a phallus...
16:29:59  pikhq, awful, isn't it.
16:30:13  pikhq, well, it's... what I meant is that it's not called that because the college just decided "Hey, Farmingdale is an awesome name for a college", which is what I thought you meant.
16:30:54  Sgeo: Dear God man, you'd have a more respectible education at Devry. And those people ride the short bus!
16:31:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:31:05 * Sgeo gets offended at pikhq 
16:31:37  Your dad offends my sensibilities!
16:31:40  he may be offensive...but he may be right...
16:31:48  pikhq, he offends everyone's sensibilities.
16:31:56  respectable education is a bit gay anyway
16:32:00  Phantom_Hoover: Except apparently Sgeo's.
16:32:11  Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF5yBBf-1ps
16:32:16  pikhq: My dad tells me he regularly has this conversation at work: "My son got into {Devry,University of Phoenix,Other Boxtop University}." "That's nice, my son is a doctoral student at Purdue." "*fume*"
16:32:22  OK, so it's not relevant at all, but it's funny.
16:32:38  "This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds."
16:32:48  Gregor: ... Who would be *proud* of being a student at one of those boxtop universities?
16:32:48  Sgeo, NO SOUP FOR YOU
16:32:52  oklopol: you're slowly convincing me that I should go gay.  keep it up and I'll soon be asking you to undress...
16:32:58  Gregor: My community college has stricter requirements.
16:33:22  quintopia: i'm always naked when i'm on irc
16:33:28  oklopol: Pencils are phallic, and we know what Freud has to say about phallic objects.
16:33:29 * Phantom_Hoover laughs at the pathetic Americans.
16:33:40  quintopia: But ... he's some scrawny little Finnish twink :P
16:33:40  oklopol: dicks or GTFO
16:34:02  And someone tell me what a boxtop university is.
16:34:05  Gregor: do you have your hat on?
16:34:15  quintopia: Always!
16:34:23  i'm not at all scrawny
16:34:27  Phantom_Hoover: one you get a scholarship to by mailing weetabix tops
16:34:37  Ah, right.
16:35:02  Phantom_Hoover: One of a few for-profit colleges which exist *largely* for the purpose of soaking up federal financial aid from students.
16:35:09  well, i was recently told i'm "surprisingly fat" when i told them my weight, i'm not sure how to interpret that
16:35:26 * Gregor is trying to remember which boxtop university it is that's in the /mall/ in Portland.
16:35:44  You can get into them if you are capable of breathing, just about, and their degrees have similar value to a high school diploma.
16:36:00  Apollo College, that's right.
16:36:18  When you go to college in a mall, then you need to reconsider your life decisions :P
16:36:25  pikhq, is there a way to confirm that my college isn't one of them?
16:36:42  [It doesn't sound like one. I think]
16:36:51  Sgeo, why, exactly, did your dad send you there?
16:36:52  Sgeo: SUNY isn't one of them, it's just a piss-poor choice for you.
16:36:54  Gregor: you don't have to move to find work after college, the mall and the uni have a deal
16:37:02  "Because he's a smeghead" excepted.
16:37:03  oklopol: X-D
16:37:46  Easy commute + not as competitive
16:37:56  is competitive bad?
16:38:02  oklopol: i do happen to be naked at the moment, and for some reason my bathwater won't get above lukewarm today :/
16:38:08  i wish we had even the slightest bit of competition here
16:38:21  quintopia, you're on your computer in the bath?
16:38:36  sgeo: my droid
16:38:40  oklopol, my dad's convinced that I have difficulties getting homework done
16:38:55  As much as I wish I could say I thought he was wrong...
16:38:56  Sgeo: It's a bit like getting a CS degree from The Institute of Everything Un-Technical. Even if the institute is the best thing ever, *you're a fucking moron* for getting a CS degree there.
16:39:00  ("motorola milestone" in other parts of the world)
16:39:21  Sgeo: however, if you went to a competitive university, you might start doing homework, because it would have a point.
16:39:25   oklopol, my dad's convinced that I have difficulties getting homework done ← I have difficulties getting homework done. Getting homework done doesn't matter.
16:39:29  the point being the competition
16:40:07  well i suppose you might drop out if you sucked ass
16:40:11  which is what you meant
16:40:57  sgeo: i recommend you transfer somewhere better at the earliest available opportunity
16:41:34  Phantom_Hoover: at uni, it matters for the first few years tho
16:41:52  after that, you'll have your own research to do anyway, so homework is just a sidejob
16:41:55  oklopol, not at Sgeo's.
16:42:37  Phantom_Hoover: well no but i mean whereever you'll go
16:42:47  if you're going to
16:42:57  assuming Sgeo's university is as crappy as i hear
16:43:32  it's not the uni that's crappy, it's his program
16:44:38  ... Holy crap they don't even *offer* computer science.
16:44:49  They offer "computer programming & information systems".
16:45:01  pikhq, yes
16:45:09  They had a CS program once
16:45:12  pikhq: that's also the case in turku :\ although partly because our math department has all the good cs
16:45:50  "Data structures" is an optional class and it's 300 level!
16:45:59   They had a CS program once ← "once"
16:46:14  It requires business classes!
16:46:19  I don't think Data Structures is optional
16:46:55  Sgeo: I'm looking at the degree requirements. Only required in the "programming track".
16:47:25 -!- charlvn has joined.
16:47:41  Sgeo: BTW: data structures in most CS programs is a freshman course.
16:47:53  ....what? Seriously?
16:48:13  yes you seriously need to transfer asap
16:49:00  And *holy God* the math requirements are light.
16:49:01  Can I get a Bachlor's here, and then do stuff at a more interesting place?
16:49:10  pikhq, there are math requirements?
16:49:18  Calc I and "Probability methods".
16:49:30  calc 1 is like some precalc shit or?
16:49:39  Sgeo: Most places I've looked, a CS degree gets you a math minor for free.
16:49:42  sgeo: just transfer now and get a bachelor's elsewhere
16:49:46  "here's the rules you learned in high school PLUS 5 MORE!"
16:49:53  oklopol: It's the first of three courses on the calculus of integrals and derivatives.
16:50:08  pikhq: i got a dual major with just like two or so more classes
16:50:27  quintopia: Yeah, I'm getting a math degree for 3 extra credit hours.
16:50:39  At least around here you can't include the same course (credit-point-wise) in multiple "modules".
16:50:59  fizzie: here you can :P
16:51:03  quintopia: But if I literally *didn't try*, I would have a math minor.
16:51:04 -!- charlvn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
16:51:07  So getting a second minor is automatical +20 or +30 credits or however much it was.
16:51:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:51:33  fizzie: Here it's entirely accepted practice.
16:51:34  they only require that you take X extra hours that aren't for the primary major
16:51:35  Anyway, it's a bit problematical in fact when you're taking two minors (or a major and minor) that have a lot of overlapping classes, since you then need to invent credit points for the second.
16:51:46  electives are completely double-dippable
16:51:46   oklopol: It's the first of three courses on the calculus of integrals and derivatives. ← so you do polynomials and that's it?
16:52:04  So, there's no way I could just get a Bachelor's here, and ..whatever the next thing is at Stony Brook?
16:52:06 -!- azaq23 has joined.
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16:52:21  Phantom_Hoover: No, you do 2 dimensional integrals and derivatives. And that's about it.
16:52:33  2 dimensional?
16:52:38  Sgeo: You would have serious trouble going into grad school with that.
16:52:44  fizzie: it's kinda weird there's actually no way to get a major from both math and cs, since there are just not enough courses
16:52:57  Phantom_Hoover: Yes, on functions of single arguments?
16:53:06  i mean, if you've done the stuff required for the degree, why can't you have it...
16:53:22  pikhq, what, so you mean you only work with f(x) rather than f(x,y)?
16:53:29  Phantom_Hoover: Yeah.
16:53:32 -!- charlvn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
16:53:53  pikhq, erm, here in Scotland you never even touch on multivariate functions.
16:54:07  Phantom_Hoover: Calc III covers calculus on multivariate functions.
16:54:43 -!- charlvn has joined.
16:54:49  we have a course called multivariate functions, but it's given by a very old guy, so it's way too hard for everybody
16:54:49  Aand calc II is a mishmash of various topics that didn't get covered in calc I.
16:55:16  AAAAGH
16:55:17  the old dudes still think like students should actually work for the courses
16:55:27  "like"?
16:55:32  Sgeo: You can take "Foundations of Programming I" *or* "Programming in Visual Basic".
16:55:41  pikhq: is that a joke? :D
16:55:53  oklopol: No.
16:55:58  i can't stop laughing
16:56:08 -!- charlvn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
16:56:19  pikhq, I can only conclude that it is educating farmers in CS applicable to sheep feeders.
16:56:29  Sgeo: Frankly, I'd be worried about your courses *transferring*.
16:56:36  Phantom_Hoover: It's not even a CS degree!
16:57:15 -!- charlvn has joined.
16:58:00 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember how many universities there are in Edinburgh, fails.
16:58:24 -!- charlvn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
16:58:33  Looks like it's two.
16:58:51  are you in edinburg ph
16:59:03  *Edinburgh. And yes, I am.
16:59:07  i was there just recently, we could've played the bagpipe together
16:59:08  oh sorry
16:59:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
16:59:22  Bagpipes: WORST THING EVER
16:59:27 -!- charlvn has joined.
16:59:34  well eaten haggis then'
16:59:37  worn kilt
16:59:44  I've never worn a kilt, either.
16:59:46  drinking beer
16:59:49  having sex with sheep
16:59:58  fuck do i know what you ppl do in your spare time
16:59:59  That's Wales, you fool.
17:00:02  oh sry
17:00:26  HEY
17:00:30  Bagpipes are great.
17:00:34  Almost as good as accordions.
17:00:39  You're also required at Sgeo's school to take "Management Theories and Practices"...
17:00:41 -!- charlvn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
17:00:50  Gregor, not when you can't go anywhere near the city centre without hearing them!
17:00:55  ... He's required to take more business classes than math classes!
17:01:24  Sgeo: Your degree is a joke.
17:02:56  Wait, which college does he go to again?
17:03:07  haha i wonder if they teach Sgeo to mind his own business haha
17:03:23  (Also, why do you Americans not have universities? Why is it all colleges?)
17:03:24  Phantom_Hoover: SUNY Farmingdale.
17:03:46  Phantom_Hoover: And we do have universities; we just tend to refer to any degree-granting institution as a "college".
17:03:58  Including universities.
17:04:05  Sgeo: which do you regret more, going to fd or mentioning it here? :D
17:04:15  Going to FD
17:04:29  Although there were some nice things social-wise
17:04:38  AFAIU colleges here are either constituents of universities or places that do some kind of vocational training.
17:04:54  Phantom_Hoover: Colleges are *also* constituents of universities here...
17:05:05  Phantom_Hoover: In addition to being any degree-granting institution.
17:05:09   Phantom_Hoover: And we do have universities; we just tend to refer to any degree-granting institution as a "college". // uhh ... no?
17:05:22  Well, yeah, I guess so ... implicitly.
17:05:31  You say "I go to college" even if you go to a university.
17:05:46  You say "college degree" even if it's from a univeristy.
17:06:00  You actually *call* it a college even if it's a university...
17:06:30  You guys have for-profit universities.
17:06:36  What.
17:07:17  Phantom_Hoover: Arguably, even our public universities are for-profit.
17:07:21  usa has for-profit free food for the poor organizations
17:07:23  here, colleges are not universities
17:07:25  at all
17:07:34  The USA also has for-proift prisons.
17:07:57  pikhq: inmates don't get to vote right?
17:08:08  coppro: It depends on the state, actually.
17:10:19  "Two states—Maine and Vermont—allow prison inmates to vote."
17:10:30  good for them
17:10:39  (inmates got the vote here thanks to the Charter(
17:11:02  Disenfranchisement is considered elsewhere to be part of the punishment for crime *shrugs*
17:11:11  If people actually cared about voting, then it would be a legit punishment :P
17:11:30  the problem is that by denying inmates the right to vote, you effectively deny any useful commentary on the prison system
17:11:30  Two states disenfranchise all felons. Even after their sentence is done.
17:11:42  since the only users of a prison get no say
17:11:44  wow
17:11:53  Arizona and Texas?
17:11:58  Kentucky and Virginia.
17:12:02  darn :(
17:12:14  that sounds surprisingly liberal for texas
17:12:40  Texas isn't completely *nuts*.
17:14:42  push button, receive bacon
17:15:01  pikhq, is the justification "being tough on crime"?
17:15:28 -!- BMG has joined.
17:16:08 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:16:11  Phantom_Hoover: Yup!
17:16:11  Hi :-)
17:16:19  cheater00: Push button, receive weetabix D'AWWWW
17:16:20  coppro: most prison inmates never voted a day in their life, and even if they all did, they'd still be in the minority
17:16:45  It's only old people that vote in the US.
17:17:14  So, the politics tends to trail decades behind.
17:17:16  We vote with student riots in the U.K.
17:17:17  hence the AARP being the biggest most powerful PAC
17:17:33 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:21:10  AARP and PAC?
17:22:22  =old people's society and =lobbying organization
17:23:08 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host).
17:23:08 -!- BMG has joined.
17:23:12 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
17:23:54  quintopia, that is quite possibly the most hilarious thing I have heard about US politics.
17:24:10  Your country. Is ruled. By an old people's organisation.
17:24:44  all the major politicians are old people too.  at least the president is young
17:35:09 -!- charlvn has joined.
17:37:25  fun "microcode error detected" from wlan card. rmmod and modprobe worked
17:39:49  AAAAAARRRRGGGGH my architecture has failed!
17:40:00  There is a spider on top of the shaft to my mines!
17:40:24  haha sucks to be you
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17:46:05 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:58:25 -!- elliott has joined.
17:58:48  elliott, oh, you came just too late.
17:58:54  Oh god what did I miss.
17:59:57  pikhq was telling Sgeo that his college is the worst ever, in detail.
18:00:11  Did Sgeo listen?
18:00:18  (Turns out they do more management courses than mathematical ones.)
18:00:18  02:21:40  Wow, they already updated Painterly.
18:00:18  02:21:50  That is astonishing.
18:00:21  It's only 16x16. :p
18:03:49   I've never worn a kilt, either. <-- YOU'RE NO TRUE SCOTSMAN!
18:04:07  oerjan, nope.
18:05:18  08:24:17  Wow, Weetabix looks extremely gross :P
18:05:18  08:24:37  "Here is a dense, solid block of cereal product. Digest it."
18:05:20  TRAITOR OF WEETABIX
18:05:22  DESTROYER OF SOULS
18:09:31 -!- Behold has joined.
18:09:45  08:37:46  Easy commute + not as competitive ← wait, surely you could, y'know, live away from home.
18:09:58  UNTHINKABLE HIS DAD WOULD BEAT HIM INTO A BLOODY PULP
18:10:01  08:32:52  oklopol: you're slowly convincing me that I should go gay.  keep it up and I'll soon be asking you to undress...
18:10:02  Hey, it's just like 2008!
18:10:52  I was never allowed to go to sleep-away camp as a kid
18:10:58  My parents thought I wouldn't eat.
18:11:02  Sgeo, ...
18:11:16  They *thought* that.
18:11:25  I need live advice, people: do I laugh, or do I curl into a ball and cry on Sgeo's behalf?
18:11:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:11:29  I can do both, but I need to know the order.
18:11:39  "No, Seth, you can't go to camp, you won't eat." "But I LIKE eating!" "Not at camp, you won't."
18:11:47  elliott: simultaneously
18:11:52  Isn't it well-known that Sgeo doesn't actually like eating at all.
18:11:59  What elliott said.
18:12:01  08:36:25  pikhq, is there a way to confirm that my college isn't one of them?
18:12:02  08:36:42  [It doesn't sound like one. I think]
18:12:02  Let me think... SUNY... STATE UNIVERSITY of New York ... hmm ... state university ... hmmmmmmmmmm
18:12:15  Probably an independent, for-profit corporation.
18:12:22  Sgeo, why the hell did they think you wouldn't eat?
18:12:29  Do you have a habit of not eating?
18:12:32  Yes
18:12:40  Phantom_Hoover: You don't know this ...?
18:12:51  Huh.
18:13:01  elliott, why exactly would I?
18:13:08  Phantom_Hoover: Because it comes up all the time?
18:13:13  It does?
18:13:18  I thought he just didn't sleep.
18:13:19  Well, in Sgeoland.
18:13:32  My sleep issues are relatively recent!
18:13:44  Sgeo: next, breathing!
18:13:47  "But my eating issues you can RELY on!
18:13:48  *on!"
18:14:30  Sgeo, so you can't live in student accommodation because you won't eat?
18:14:56  i can set up a bot to order you to eat at regular intervals
18:14:58  if that would help
18:15:02  :D
18:15:09  My step-mom's convinced that my unwillingness to organize and throw stuff out in this messy house is an indication that I can't live on my own
18:15:17  [My step-mom's crazier than my dad]
18:15:25  Sgeo, Christ.
18:15:36  Sgeo's step mother has never seen student accommodation.
18:15:36  How the hell can someone be crazier than your dad?
18:15:41  And believes it to be a place of cleanliness and perfection
18:16:28 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:16:34  "You're not allowed to date non-Jewish girls" "You're ill"
18:16:38  Sgeo, that offer to kidnap your father is now extended to murdering your stepmother.
18:17:00  "You're not allowed to date non-Jewish girls" <-- bitch
18:17:10  Sgeo, *murdering your stepmother very painfully
18:17:19  with a fork?
18:17:22  gotta have the forks
18:17:36  lawl, wtf
18:17:41  Since when is Sgeo even Jewish?
18:17:54  Gregor, dunno.
18:17:56  She also says that that my mom wanted me to only date Jewish girls. While I think my mom would prefer it slightly, I don't think she was that strict about it"
18:18:01  Besides, the Jewish side of my family says things more like "You're not allowed to date Jewish girls."
18:18:45  Sgeo, why did you not just spit in her face at this point?
18:19:08  Spit ACID IN HER FACE
18:19:14  Bonus points for not melting your tongue and gums firts
18:19:15  *first
18:21:00 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:21:04  Sgeo: i'm not sure if it's been mentioned enough but you should transfer to another college right now before it's too late and you get a useless degree that gets you nowhere at all ever
18:21:06 * oerjan now imagines Sgeo always wearing hasidic garb
18:21:08  just sayin'
18:21:12  PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA?
18:21:31  alternatively drop out because you could just scribble some crayons on a piece of blank paper and get a degree of similar usefulness
18:21:38  Sgeo, say you're going on a date with KT-AT and NEVER COME BACK
18:21:49  Phantom_Hoover: TRYING TO OFFER SERIOUS LIFE ADVICE HERE
18:21:50  KTHX
18:22:49  i'm sure Sgeo is aware that he could just leave if he liked
18:23:04  But my degree is almost done!
18:23:04  oklopol: i'm not sure he's aware that it's the only sane option
18:23:11  
18:23:16  Sgeo, the degree will *decrease* your prospects.
18:23:18  Sgeo: And...then what? You're not gonna get into grad school with it ...
18:23:37  Sgeo: If you transfer it's not like you're going to have to start at square one...
18:23:38  Not even at another SUNY school?
18:23:46  Can I get a degree and then transfer?
18:23:50  ...no.
18:23:58  You see, you get the degree when you *finish* college.
18:24:02  You transfer while you are *in* college.
18:24:17  Pretend he doesn't have a degree?
18:24:33  Can I do all the required courses for a degree, and just not get the degree?
18:24:40  of course
18:24:50  they don't just automatically give it to you
18:24:58 -!- j-invariant has joined.
18:24:59  Sgeo: Choice 1: (1) Finish useless degree. (2) Be unable to get into grad school. Choice 2: (1) Transfer to another college. (2) Finish good degree. (3) Get into grad school. Choice 3: what you said but why would you want to do that
18:25:25  Because the senior project sounds like something I need to do. Have a real project.
18:25:41  Because there won't be any "real projects" in another college ...
18:25:47  [SARCASM ALERT]
18:26:36  Sgeo, wait, how long have you been at university for?
18:26:37  it sounds like a drastic solution i know, but when all of #esoteric vehemently agrees...well, desperate times call for it
18:26:50  Phantom_Hoover, since beginning of 2008
18:27:01  Seriously.
18:27:05  You need to get out of that shithole.
18:27:15  Sgeo, so... 19?
18:27:26  as you said, sunk cost.  best not to sink anymore
18:27:36  What'd you do between leaving school and then?
18:27:40  Because if you sink... you DROWN 
18:27:56  Nothing.
18:28:05  It felt like a summer that wouldn't end
18:28:24  [I hate summers]
18:28:31  Sgeo, erm, you left school at 19?
18:28:40  Phantom_Hoover, um, hm
18:28:40  It was one of those freakish year-long summers.
18:28:43  No, 18
18:28:51  I think
18:29:02  elliott, just half a year
18:29:07  quintopia: do we need to go and tell sgeo to transfer in person
18:29:14  I'll get plane tickets
18:29:19  let's all do this together!
18:29:21  What were you doing that meant you sat around for the end of 2007?
18:29:35  elliott: fuck that.  that's more work even than filling out the transfer papers for him and hell if i'm doing that.
18:29:44  Phantom_Hoover, my step-mom and dad wanted me to go to Israel for a little while. That didn't happen.
18:29:50  Sgeo, ...
18:29:52  Why.
18:29:53  lol
18:29:57  Phantom_Hoover: BECAUSE HE'S A GOOD JEW
18:30:08  quintopia: Yeah, but he'll give us less horrific stories if he gets out of there, and that's worth anything.
18:30:50  well, i suppose i would feel awful good about helping someone so desperately in need
18:31:00  and as long as you're buying the tix...
18:31:10  right
18:31:12  Sgeo: what's your address
18:31:33  somewhere near farmingdale ny obviously
18:31:35  i already asked him
18:31:39  wouldn't tell me
18:31:41  Farmingrusticruralpigagridaleshire.
18:31:46  oklopol: no shit sherlock
18:31:48  just like the rest of you people WHO I THOUGHT WERE MY FRIENDS
18:32:00  quintopia: ok we'll meet him AT the college then
18:32:12  elliott, with some chloroform?
18:32:13  i know his name and what he looks like when dressed in a fursuit^Wblood drop costue
18:32:15  *costume
18:32:16  I wonder how my dad would react if he met you
18:32:29  Sgeo: We'll never find out, because he'd be unconscious before he realised.
18:32:36  your dad would like me
18:32:40  i'm very likable
18:32:43  able babble
18:32:48  your dad would very much like me
18:32:49  babel abble
18:33:03  yeah he and quinn could have a beer together
18:33:04  because he likes people who are smarter than him, right?
18:33:13  yeah totally that's why he treats Sgeo like a king
18:33:22  I know what his head looks like when he's not in a bloodsuit.
18:33:29  quintopia: okay, so, if we meet him at farmingdale, we need to throw him into the back of a truck
18:33:35  and drive him to a good college
18:33:41  :D
18:33:43  He wouldn't like me, because I am extremely insufferable.
18:33:46  go up to the first official-looking person we see
18:33:47  say
18:33:58  "This poor man was in SUNY FARMINGDALE."
18:34:03  elliott: you rent the truck, i'll drive with my AMURRCAN driver's license
18:34:04  "And he didn't even KNOW the implications."
18:34:10  They will look horrified, and take him in.
18:34:22  quintopia: how does that plan sound to you
18:34:31  it's on
18:34:34  right
18:34:40  i'll buy tickets tomorrow
18:34:43  elliott, clearly you should chloroform him because you are stunted by malnourishment and as such he will suspect nothing.
18:34:47  why don't people kidnap each other just for giggles anymore
18:34:50  just to see the look on the poor official looking person's face
18:35:02  Phantom_Hoover: SGEO KNOWS WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE STUNTED BY MALNOURISHMENT
18:35:05  oklopol: i miss the good ol' days
18:35:25  it's true.  sgeo is mentally malnourished in farmingdale
18:35:37  09:17:16  We vote with student riots in the U.K.
18:35:40  that would be the greatest voting system
18:35:48  quintopia, naw, elliott is physically malnourished due to the Harrying of the North.
18:35:49  "WE DEMAND HIGHER PENSIONS FOR THE ELDERLY"
18:36:19  that...is how politics works in the U.S.
18:36:27  but are they all students
18:36:32  and do they actually count as votes
18:36:42  no, of course not
18:36:45  votes are worth nothing
18:36:52  riots actually accomplish things
18:37:14  i suggest a riot on sgeo's house
18:37:22  mostly because i dunno how you'd vote in sgeo's house
18:37:53  it's easy
18:37:54  elliott, votes are made by bludgeoning Sgeo's father and stepmother.
18:37:58  we all go in there
18:38:08  Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo doesn't live with his stepmother.
18:38:13  and we say "we're all having a vote on whether sgeo has to transfer"
18:38:18  Phantom_Hoover: THINGS I AM RAPIDLY TIRING OF: Remakes of random music in Minecraft.
18:38:19  we'll even let his parents vote too
18:38:34  only his dad gets a vote
18:38:37  wait does Sgeo get to vote
18:38:38  nah
18:38:39  obviously
18:38:42  I'm not tired of those yet
18:38:45  elliott, OK, different sides of Sgeo's father's body.
18:39:10  elliott: let's be fair and let everyone in the household vote.  there can't be more than 5 of them and there are at least 20 of us...
18:39:19  quintopia: isn't it just Sgeo and his father.
18:39:23  how do you what we're going to vote
18:39:27  i wouldn't know
18:39:36  if so, they can both vote, why not?
18:39:55  i would hate to be accused of being unfair
18:39:58  Just me and my dad
18:40:03  that makes it easier
18:40:05  Bye, going to meet up with KT-AT
18:40:09  heh
18:40:16  Sgeo: if you moved
18:40:18  you could move
18:40:20  CLOSER TO KTAT
18:40:34 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:40:49  Phantom_Hoover: So I've been thinking about yellowstone (Notch feckin stole blue for lapis).
18:40:55  Sgeo, PRETEND SHE KIDNAPPED YOU
18:41:16  Phantom_Hoover: The opening of this video is the most amazing thing ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewFrgDPCgGA
18:41:27  Watch it. You will not regret it.
18:42:17  elliott, :D
18:44:25  Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opuQmQy87x4
18:45:18  elliott: fog is a wonderful thing
18:49:54  Phantom_Hoover: I have an idea for an RNG in Minecraft.
18:50:03  As in, using only existing blocks.
18:50:29  There are already some pretty compact ones.
18:51:25  Phantom_Hoover: Um, what?
18:51:31  Phantom_Hoover: AFAIK nobody has made an RNG in Minecraft before.
18:51:33  Phantom_Hoover: I mean --
18:51:36  Phantom_Hoover: One that seeds itself.
18:51:47  i.e., if you run the circuit multiple times, you'll get different results.
18:51:50  There's that one that was used for the creepy door.
18:51:53  Even if you restore a save.
18:51:59  Phantom_Hoover: What door? Also, it probably had a predefined seed.
18:52:43  A friend elsewhere has just said that Chrome logs your browsing history to Google.
18:52:53  Your friend is wrong.
18:53:11  See Preferences -> Under the Bonnet for an enumeration of all the communication Chrome does to Google.
18:53:12  tl;dr:
18:53:13  oh I see, the dispenser is a block
18:53:22  I tohught it was some funny trick with the smelter
18:53:22  When you put stuff in the address bar it tells Google, to get search results there.
18:53:34  It also uses the phishing/malware protection that, sure, sends domain names.
18:53:38  But they aren't logged.
18:53:45  And... when you get an error page it asks Google for some likely results.
18:53:48  All of these are disableable.
18:54:05  Phantom_Hoover: If he disagrees, tell him to point you to the line in the source code where it communicates with Google.
18:54:53  what is it?
18:54:59  j-invariant: ?
18:55:48  Phantom_Hoover: I am VERY UPSET that you are not asking me about my amazing RNG idea!
18:56:01  elliott, OK, go on.
18:56:05  me too, because i was too lazy to ask myself
18:56:19  Dispensers throw items a seemingly random distance.
18:56:25  Surround a dispenser with wooden pressure plates.
18:56:26  Set it off.
18:56:33  Use the resulting pressure plate patterns.
18:56:44  Issues: (1) Can't reset automatically, AFAIK.
18:56:47  (2) ?
18:56:54  non-uniform
18:56:57  Of course, you'd just use the result as a seed.
18:56:59  j-invariant: naturally
18:57:02  you'd have to account for that
18:57:15  by weighting the value of each plate or whatever
18:57:29  elliott, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzERWnFoW54&feature=related
18:57:49  Fucking kiershar.
18:58:03  I guess it's because of minute lag in the redstone system.
18:58:07  vs. the game clock or something.
18:58:10  I have no idea.
18:58:16  Basically, yes.
18:58:27  where dou find all this redstone stuff..
18:58:31  Phantom_Hoover: But if redstone wasn't buggy like that, then my idea would still work!
18:58:34  j-invariant: kiershar knows all.
18:59:05 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:00:52  Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1021&t=114491
19:01:00  Phantom_Hoover: This pack looks awesome.
19:02:19  there should be a university that has a program in game physics, that is, the whole program is just about reverse-engineering games in-game. would make much more sense than just physics, because instead of one uninteresting universe, you'd have all kinds of universes.
19:03:42  and minecraft cosmology, we did a bit of that here the other day
19:03:53  sociology of lemmings
19:04:03  biology of Dogz
19:04:08  Phantom_Hoover: Wow, Optimine is great.
19:04:10  (by editing the config files)
19:04:24  far/fancy without my fan going to 100%
19:04:59  j-invariant: those topics make sense within this universe, but i'm not sure biology of games would be very a coherent field
19:05:05  by physics, i meant all natural sciences
19:05:07 * Phantom_Hoover wishes BiomeTerrain worked.
19:05:45  well, maybe it might.
19:09:08  i'm not even kidding about that in-game experimentation thing, i never understood the point of finding out stuff about this particular universe, it doesn't get much less interesting than this
19:09:41  "hey you can move around, and if you work for hours you can make an object that's slightly better suited for bashing containers open"
19:09:42  The genetics in Creature is pretty complex, from what I've read
19:09:46  At least as far as games go
19:09:48  Phantom_Hoover: Oh boy. There's a bloom filter fort he GLSL shaders mod :P
19:09:51  Slereah: Don't make Sgeo start
19:09:56  ...than your hand
19:10:20  Slereah: and even better, you actually get to try them out
19:10:25  unlike on earth
19:10:48  Well, you can do it on earth, too
19:10:52  technically yes
19:10:53  It just takes longer than a day
19:10:57  you can also build a computer in minecraft
19:11:04  who the fuck would, after it's been tested once, tho
19:11:05  So I've read
19:11:11  Well
19:11:13  For instance
19:11:18  You could make a MUSIC BOX
19:11:32  I got so lost my saved game as become 20 megabytes
19:11:49  heh
19:12:04  I try not to wander too far if I don't have a tunnel near
19:12:21  Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720 YESSSSS
19:12:30  j-invariant, only?
19:12:45  j-invariant, my local world1 is about 100 MB iirc
19:13:01  world2 and world3 are about 25-30 MB iirc
19:13:01  Mine is only 8 so far :c
19:13:01  Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it has hardcoded side-grass. Lame.
19:13:02  Vorpal: O_O
19:13:09  (each)
19:13:10  But then again, I do spend a time making my lair pretty
19:13:24  j-invariant, my local test server world: 110 MB
19:13:45  Vorpal: what the hell do you *do*? :P
19:14:04  j-invariant, build (mega-scale). Explore. Spelunk
19:14:08  cool
19:14:11  j-invariant, remember I play on peaceful.
19:14:31  You pansy :V
19:14:31  j-invariant, night is just a minor light level inconvenience to me thus
19:14:45  Slereah, well sure :P
19:15:11  You need to man up, and spend every night cowering in fear in your lair!
19:15:16  j-invariant: try mcregion to get smaller files
19:15:18  well
19:15:20  and also speed things up
19:15:25  j-invariant: optimine + mcregion = awesome fast
19:16:05  WTF a creeper just jumped off a cliff to get me
19:16:12  j-invariant, ouch
19:16:37  He is a suicide bomber, j-invariant
19:16:40  What does he care!
19:16:55  Slereah: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720
19:16:55  j-invariant, idea: creepers able to build 1x1 towers of dirt to reach you
19:16:56  erm
19:16:58  http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720
19:16:59  ermmfsdogmsgflk
19:17:02  Slereah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X32nuDEvw-4
19:17:11  all enemies should be able to mine and build just like you
19:17:12  ofc
19:17:17  heh
19:17:36  think how neato, you'd never be safe if they get your scent
19:17:58  optimine + mcregion + mipmapping + better light = fuck yeah
19:18:03  so if you walk on the surface during the day, they'll start digging near that area
19:18:11  oklopol, if you are inside a obsidian structure?
19:18:14  oklopol, with no door
19:18:17  then you are safe
19:18:18  Vorpal: well you basically have to be
19:18:20  do you need something special to mine those bricks tht look like coal but white?
19:18:25  j-invariant: what
19:18:27  WHY IS THIS #minecraft
19:18:27  j-invariant: ???
19:18:29  coal but white?
19:18:30  screenshot
19:18:32  well you're safe unless they find diamond
19:18:43  oklopol, hah
19:18:51  they have the whole night to look for it
19:18:52  oklopol: Phantom_Hoover just scared me into thinking that accidentally today
19:18:55  oklopol: imo i think just zombies should mine
19:18:55  oklopol, you can mine away obsidian at lower than that
19:19:00  creepers explode, skeletons fire arrows, zombies mine
19:19:06  after all they look like us and we can mine, and have no special power now
19:19:07  's only logical
19:19:08  oklopol, just you won't get any obsidian blocks dropped
19:19:15  think about it, every night, a thousand creatures are born that have all the powers of a player, that try to kill you
19:19:19  They are zombies, though
19:19:24  You would need like
19:19:26  Evil dudes
19:19:28  Not dead people
19:19:51  Slereah: They can move and jump and punch, so they can mine.
19:19:54  (They punch you)
19:20:15  Back.
19:20:21  Slereah: except somehow i think they would necessarily be a bit less smart than the player
19:20:32  Phantom_Hoover: Should I enable Better Grass or not.
19:20:38  SO HARD TO DECIDE
19:20:38  Or, alternatively
19:20:43  I SOMEHOW just got a stack of 65
19:20:44  You can try it multiplayer
19:20:44  how
19:20:46  And wage war
19:21:00   i'm not even kidding about that in-game experimentation thing, i never understood the point of finding out stuff about this particular universe, it doesn't get much less interesting than this
19:21:03  Erm, what?
19:21:20  We don't even know how it works, and what we do know about that is very interesting.
19:21:45  For a start, a fair bit of new mathematics has come from physics.
19:21:49  the actual dynamics are not at all interesting
19:21:53  (In modern times.)
19:22:05  oklopol, define "interesting".
19:22:19  that's a bit subjective, but i'm sure you all agree
19:22:29  that's why people play minecraft instead of football
19:22:38  oklopol, erm, what is so boring about quantum physics?
19:23:01  quantum physics is not something you can actually do stuff with
19:23:10  Well, you can
19:23:13  Like
19:23:15  EVERYTHING
19:23:15  are you guys talking about reality?
19:23:19  or minecraft?
19:23:19  yeah, if you've built a computer in minecraft
19:23:21  Phantom_Hoover: HOLY FUCK CREEPER IN THE DAY
19:23:51  Day creepers are the worst man
19:23:54  Also, the essential reason that we study the way this universe works rather than artificial ones is because a) this one is the one we actually live in and b) we don't actually know how this one works, unlike any artificial ones we make.
19:23:54  Or
19:24:00  a day creeper just kille dme
19:24:04  Natural caves creeprs :c
19:24:17  When I die, I'm not getting my stuff bck
19:24:25  It was day on the FIRST DAY
19:24:27  Probably from a cave
19:24:27  Phantom_Hoover: we certainly do not know how the artificial ones work either
19:24:36  not on a macro level
19:24:37  oklopol, yes, we do.
19:24:40  Phantom_Hoover: GoL
19:24:41  tell me how it works
19:24:43  on a macro level
19:24:44  As a species, at least.
19:24:54  so hey
19:24:56  some mod i have
19:24:58  no one really knows anything about gol
19:24:59  has evidently fixed side grass
19:24:59  but
19:24:59  er
19:25:02  And working bottom-up is not what we are doing with reality.
19:25:03  http://i.imgur.com/YlDro.png
19:25:04  badly
19:25:07  :DDD
19:25:08  i wonder what did it
19:25:11  This is extremely obvious.
19:27:13  but what are interesting are the methods of going top-down, and how simple things turn into macro-things. both can be done separately with artificial models, except you don't have to own a university to be able to do that, and you're not restricted by whatever god chose to include!
19:27:22  "The most recent update was on January 15th, and is henceforth known as the Community Appeasement Grab Bag Edition MK II. This update adds nearly 100 new tiles and skins, for the 1.2 beta patch. "
19:27:25  nearly 100????
19:28:12  elliott, innumerable variants.
19:28:27  Oak is the normal tree type, right?
19:28:31  I looked at the customiser, and it had added a Chinese theme.
19:28:40  Omg, finally, I can replace the fucking fugly birch tree bark.
19:29:39  ARGH MY SAVE DISAPPEARED ENTIRELY
19:29:39  ais523: pastebin.ca has been for over a week... Is there any chance you could upload your BF Joust interpreter elsewhere?
19:29:42  pikhq: :-(
19:29:45 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
19:29:47  Save of what?
19:29:50  pikhq: I don't get the problems you do.
19:29:51  Minecraft.
19:29:52  Phantom_Hoover: MC.
19:29:57  impomatic: use egojoust, it's fairer
19:29:58  I'm hitting every edge case!
19:30:08  pikhq, you have jumped on the bandwagon?
19:30:10  i can't get on the server
19:30:14  Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I helped him pirate it.
19:30:16  oklopol: it's not updated yet.
19:30:20  oklopol, what?
19:30:24  ineiros, snap to it.
19:30:26  Phantom_Hoover: People who like dark wood textures have a brain disease: discuss.
19:30:26  oklopol, I saw you join
19:30:28  and then part
19:30:38  oklopol, downgrade minecraft and use a non-updating launcher
19:30:39  elliott, I use the dark wood textures!
19:30:40  It's my next purchase when I have expendable income.
19:30:42  oh right so i should've prevented update as well? shit
19:30:48  Phantom_Hoover: Umm, why do you hate humanity?
19:30:48  oklopol: naw
19:30:50  oklopol: I haven't
19:30:54  oklopol: just play locally for now
19:30:59  the update is well worth it.
19:31:03  but playing locally is totally gay!
19:31:04  okay
19:31:06  Phantom_Hoover: (Actually I'm going to try dark wood.)
19:31:07  elliott, what, exactly, is wrong with dark wood?
19:31:18  Phantom_Hoover: Do you use the brick-planks or the line-planks?
19:31:35  elliott: *Part* of the problem is that Minecraft and an IME do not interact at all.
19:31:37  On-the-line.
19:31:41  pikhq: So disable the IME :P
19:31:49  elliott: Yeah, I closed it.
19:31:50  Phantom_Hoover: I'll try it ... this once...
19:32:07  elliott, which sandstone texture should I use?
19:32:09  elliott: But, yeah. That's only going to come up for East Asian-language-speakers.
19:32:13  Phantom_Hoover: I haven't got there yet!
19:32:21 -!- Behold has joined.
19:32:27  Phantom_Hoover: Moar sign options!
19:32:28  (I group them only because their *technological* requirements are very similar)
19:32:31  Good thing too, I don't like the bordered-sign.
19:32:39  *bordered sign.
19:32:43  so umm, can i change textures by just changing some sort of pic files
19:32:45  Phantom_Hoover: DO YOU USE LIGHT OR DARK STONE
19:32:55  Dark, obviously.
19:32:57  oklopol: you want to make your own pack?
19:33:00  Phantom_Hoover: Why obviously.
19:33:02  yes
19:33:04  i do
19:33:11  elliott, because light is unspeakably hideous.
19:33:18  I need some iron
19:33:19  You are plunged into an ocean of beige.
19:33:21  oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Texture_Pack
19:33:27  oklopol: look at that list of modifiable files
19:33:31  oklopol: copy them all out of minecraft.jar
19:33:33  oklopol: make a zip file
19:33:35  oklopol: put them all in
19:33:37  name it something
19:33:40  copy it into a new folder
19:33:43  %APPDATA/.minecraft/texturepacks
19:33:47  and edit terrain.png inside the zip
19:33:51  also other files, but terrain.png is all the blocks
19:34:02  you _can_ change them direct in the jar but this is more maintainable
19:34:15  Phantom_Hoover, beige is nice
19:34:17  Phantom_Hoover: I... need a screenshot of your setup with both stone and wood, because it sounds horrifically dark.
19:34:19  elliott, remember that stupid basic texture pack for slow computers.
19:34:24  okay, that sounds like *seconds* of work
19:34:30  elliott, it's no darker than the default.
19:34:36  apparently you can use a stone pickaxe to get iron
19:34:37  Phantom_Hoover: I NEED SCREENSHOT (also, wood is).
19:34:49  j-invariant: Dude, I found iron on my third in-game day...
19:34:54  You are mining terribly :P
19:35:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:36:24  elliott, sec.
19:36:40  Minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/ZODJz.gif
19:37:26  oklopol: so is your texture pack done
19:37:37  http://imgur.com/7kp9M
19:37:51  Phantom_Hoover: THINGS THAT ARE NOT IN THAT PICTURE: Stone
19:38:35  elliott, it's 30m up from the ground. Of course there's no stone.
19:38:44  Phantom_Hoover: But I asked for stone!
19:38:52  DISAPPOINTED PLEASE GIVE SCREENSHOT WITH STONE
19:38:55  Also, where IS that?
19:39:01  Oh, SSP.
19:39:16  elliott, http://imgur.com/B7BTZ
19:39:18  so can i have alpha color everywhere
19:39:22  Better than the ocean of beige.
19:39:31  Phantom_Hoover: looks like gravel
19:39:33  oklopol: not on every block i don't think
19:39:43  oklopol: with leaves you can have full alpha, dunno about half
19:39:47  oklopol: and ice is half-transparent or whatever
19:39:52  oklopol: btw changing water/lava does not work
19:39:58  you need to use this fancy mcpatcher thing to do that but whatever
19:40:10  oklopol: also the blocks at the bottom are the digging animation, you can use any greyscale there
19:40:18  *mining animation
19:40:35  Phantom_Hoover: So ocean of grey > ocean of beige? :P
19:40:40  Yes.
19:40:45  Beige is the wost colour.
19:40:48  *worst
19:40:56  Phantom_Hoover: I like beige. Wait, do you use dark cobblstone too?
19:40:59  *cobblestone
19:41:21  Unless you're a tetrachromat, and since that requires you to be female, there's not much chance of that.
19:41:22  elliott, yes.
19:41:36   Phantom_Hoover: I like beige. Wait, do you use dark cobblstone too? <-- I like beige as well
19:41:40  Phantom_Hoover: We are ... no longer friends.
19:41:42  Also,
19:41:43 -!- elliott has changed nick to alise.
19:41:45  TOTALLY FEMALE
19:41:47 -!- alise has changed nick to elliott.
19:41:53  elliott, _chromosomally_ female.
19:42:07  I got chromosome reassignment surgery.
19:42:17  :D
19:42:24  And became a tetrachromat in the process!
19:42:40  elliott, so clearly you regressed to a zygote and regrew?
19:42:53  Phantom_Hoover: I think that's a fetish, but no.
19:42:56  They changed them in-place.
19:43:03  elliott, your eyes?
19:43:09  My chromosomes.
19:43:13  Even then.
19:43:16  So my eyes changed obviously, because they had new chromosomes now.
19:43:18  That's not how biology works.
19:43:31  Oh really? Then why am I a tetrachromat?
19:44:00  Your body doesn't go "oh, look, the DNA changed. Must bring phenotype up to date, then."
19:44:44  Yes it does.
19:44:46  "I want Lapis Lazuli ground into a powder for dyes." Ooh...
19:45:21  Phantom_Hoover: What redstone wire do you use?
19:45:25  The ornate one looks cool.
19:45:38  I switched to it because I'm a sucker for ornateness.
19:45:53  Phantom_Hoover: Hopefully you can agree that the Painterly chests and doors are hideous, though.
19:46:01  YOU CANNOT DO THAT IN 16 PIXELS WITHOUT LOOKING HIDEOUS
19:46:11  The ornate ones?
19:46:22  Yes. Which is all of them.
19:46:33  the light wood ones are good
19:46:38 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
19:46:59  "Give me Chinese-style windows." UGLIEST
19:47:06  Phantom_Hoover: Which sandstone option is most realistic.
19:47:12  I think the chests and doors are nice on the default.
19:47:22  elliott, I went for bricks since I'm used to seeing it used for that.
19:47:31  Original cloth of woven cloth?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
19:47:32  *or
19:47:46  Phantom_Hoover: Smooth-topped?
19:47:59  Brick topped.
19:48:03  I'm considering changing that.
19:48:16  Smooth-topped sandstone columns look nice... but I'll stick with the default for now.
19:48:23  BUT WHICH CLOTH
19:48:32  I think the woven cloth.
19:48:51  Stitched-edge.
19:49:06  Personally "I would like BARONS DEF CHARGER'S woven cloth texture", even despite the name.
19:49:16  fizzie: That's the one I've been usin' too.
19:49:17  "I want a metal creeper insignia ornate monster spawner cage."
19:49:18  YES PLEASE.
19:49:35 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:49:56  "Change my wood door into an unstained light wood door." ;; I would use this one if it were darker.
19:50:55  Phantom_Hoover: Chocolate cake, I hope.
19:51:01  "I want my sugar in a bag like civilized people."
19:51:01  What? No.
19:51:11  Phantom_Hoover: Are you even human?
19:51:15  Given that cocoa beans are a probable addition.
19:51:25  Phantom_Hoover: *The Minecraft cake is chocolate*.
19:51:28  Also, the cake in Portal is chocolate.
19:51:34  elliott, ...it is?
19:51:41  To which?
19:51:53  Both.
19:52:13  Phantom_Hoover: Well, Notch *said* it was chocolate, and the sponge is dark enough for it.
19:52:19  And yes, the cake in Portal is chocolate.
19:52:20  http://theknittingdefective.typepad.com/.a/6a0115714ad401970c011572419026970b-800wi
19:52:32  Better shot: http://honestcake.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/portal_and_there_will_be_cake.jpg
19:52:51  WHAT PAINTING OPTIONS DO YOU USE
19:52:59  That looks like a plastic cake.
19:53:00  Monet.
19:53:07  I use pastel bedrock.
19:53:15  Urgh, ugly.
19:53:23 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:53:26  "Give me an ink sac, straight from the squid." Disgusting; I'll take the splatter.
19:54:06  Fuck you, default choice, my chickens are CHICKENS.
19:54:39  People who use glowing-eyed creepers are abortions: discuss.
19:54:54  I use glowing-eyed creepers!
19:54:54  In fact, people who use anything other than "Give me a Creeper that looks more like the original!" are probably Nazis.
19:55:00  Phantom_Hoover: YOU ARE THE WORST PERSON.
19:55:20  Blue sea squid <3
19:55:30  HAPPY CHEST
19:55:32  *GHAST
19:55:53  Do NOT confuse chests and ghasts.
19:56:10  Phantom_Hoover: What game cursor do you use.
19:56:15  Pixel.
19:56:21  Phantom_Hoover: I hate you.
19:56:25  CROSS DAMMIT CROSS
19:56:36  JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS
19:56:41 -!- pingveno has joined.
19:57:11  LATEST UPDATE:
19:57:11  1.1.10_01 - Fixed custom water/lava for beta 1.1_02
19:57:17  Gee, I wonder if it'll work on 1.2_01.
19:57:19  LET'S FIND OUT
19:58:04  The custom water/lava options are disabled.
19:58:04  It doesn't.
19:58:05  I am sad.
19:58:12  I'll use default water for now ...
19:58:36  elliott, but anyway, that basic texture back thing has been taken down because noöne donated to it.
19:58:39  I hope whatever's causing that fucked-up side grass goes away.
19:58:41  Phantom_Hoover: :-D
19:58:53  Oh god, the brick background on the title screen is ugly.
20:00:17  Phantom_Hoover: The "radios" are jukeboxes, right?
20:00:23   People who use glowing-eyed creepers are abortions: discuss.   I use glowing-eyed creepers! <-- i am starting to see a trend here...
20:00:32  Phantom_Hoover is the worst person.
20:01:01  elliott, I left them as jukeboxes because I am lazy.
20:01:16  Ornate dispenser so ugly oh my god
20:01:31 * Phantom_Hoover whistles
20:01:35  "I want an industrial simple dispenser." is nice.
20:02:03  Phantom_Hoover: You at least use "I want cobblestone with larger individual stones.", surely?
20:02:05  Not the DEFAULT?
20:02:16  Yes.
20:02:21  Erm, wait.
20:02:22  Phew.
20:02:24  Oh god.
20:02:33  Phantom_Hoover: And marble half blocks?
20:02:35  No, I use tiles.
20:02:40  And marble half-blocks.
20:02:47  At least you're human in one area.
20:02:59  fizzie: Tell me you agree that Phantom_Hoover's texture pack options are insane.
20:03:02  Phantom_Hoover is half-creeper
20:03:16  20:05 < AliG> I is here with my man and we ares chattin about something well  important, math.
20:03:19  20:05 < AliG> What is math?
20:03:21  elliott
20:03:21  Phantom_Hoover: "I want to use the flat Painterly lapis lazuli block." yes?
20:03:25  j-invariant: xD
20:03:34  elliott, slab.
20:03:43  Phantom_Hoover: I think you should die.
20:03:48  I picked all the dyes in bowls, before you ask.
20:03:53  Quickly, in fact.
20:04:02  Phantom_Hoover: he said die, not dye
20:04:08  :D
20:04:31 * Phantom_Hoover swats oerjan ----###
20:04:49  GRR, that stupid grass problem hasn't fixed itself. I need to repatch everything.
20:05:11  Phantom_Hoover: Holy shit, what coal ore do you use, the default dark stone coal ore is amazingly bad.
20:05:16  It has... yellow edges...
20:05:43  coal with extra sulphur, clearly
20:05:55  mipmapping + painterly = love
20:06:05  Game looks fucking amazing.
20:06:34  elliott, I used the default coal ore because it was that or beige or strangely machined coal chunks.
20:07:28  Phantom_Hoover: Dude, it's grey, not beige.
20:07:46  Can I just say now that Painterly dirt tiles terribly.
20:09:09  is pastebin.ca down for good?
20:09:16  it hasn't worked on any of my recent attempts to access it
20:09:56  ais523: i doubt it
20:10:00  ais523: it was up only a few days ago
20:10:11  ais523: filebin has been down forever, though
20:10:58  hello
20:11:16  ais523: anyway, I implemented tsort for changesets
20:11:26  ais523: probably wildly inefficient
20:11:32  OK, I have installed Optimine, mipmapping, MCPATCHER, Better Light and Painterly.
20:11:41  Phantom_Hoover: You don't need mcpatcher.
20:11:43  And it's lowercase.
20:11:49  elliott, why not?
20:11:51  Phantom_Hoover: Just put it in texturepacks?
20:11:54  There's native texture pack support now.
20:11:59  mcpatcher is only required for custom water and lava.
20:12:02  Which don't work right now.
20:12:04  And also HD packs.
20:12:05  It still does basic water and lava.
20:12:06  Which Painterly is not.
20:12:10  (Animations that it.)
20:12:14  Phantom_Hoover: ...fail.
20:12:15  *is
20:12:22  elliott, it doesn't?
20:12:22  Phantom_Hoover: Those buttons just make it use the DEFAULT Minecraft water/lava.
20:12:33  SO BETRAYED
20:12:34  Until custom water/lava are reenabled, mcpatcher does nothing for non-HD packs.
20:12:50  Does your side-grass get coloured weirdly, too?
20:13:12  That's just Notch-quality engineering.
20:13:43  Don't use biome compliance unless you like ugliness.
20:14:20  Phantom_Hoover: I *didn't*.
20:14:30  Phantom_Hoover: And it also happened with the default pack.
20:14:46  Phantom_Hoover: The problem is that it's colouring the dirt parts too for some reason according to the biome.
20:14:47  Default is biome-compliant.
20:15:08  Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about.
20:15:42  Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/YlDro.png
20:15:44  Phantom_Hoover: See?
20:15:54  That's just you.
20:16:01  Phantom_Hoover: No, that's some mod.
20:16:13  Well, get rid of it!
20:17:05  Phantom_Hoover: I INSTALLED THE SAME MODS AS YOU.
20:17:08  green dirt looks nice imo
20:17:27  elliott, I don't know, then!
20:17:31  Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, you forgot mcregion.
20:17:34  Remove bin and try again!
20:18:23 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
20:19:36  Fuck yeah, 64+64+20.
20:19:37  *clay.
20:19:53 -!- Behold has joined.
20:21:03  Phantom_Hoover: Respawned - half the clay returned - but still in my inventory - fuck yea
20:21:29  Clay is really only good as an æsthetic thing...
20:21:31  Phantom_Hoover: Oh wow, it is comical how bad the game looks without mipmapping and Better Light.
20:22:22  Phantom_Hoover: I think that stint with side-grass-that-looks-like-pure-grass has convinced me that either Better Grass or Painterly's 1/1 grass option are awesome.
20:22:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:23:58  Phantom_Hoover: Do beaches usually have a ton of brown mushrooms on them?
20:24:04  No.
20:24:13  But sometimes you get a massive cluster.
20:25:00 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:25:11  Phantom_Hoover: Notch hasn't hired Scaevolus yet; discuss.
20:25:28  http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f2wvt/is_this_a_secret_fallout_puzzle_it_looks_like_a/
20:25:28  Scaevolus?
20:25:28  ok
20:25:30  i dont know
20:25:31  but
20:25:37  Phantom_Hoover: The author of Optimine and mcregion.
20:25:43  Phantom_Hoover: A part of Optimine was included in 1.2.
20:25:44  Ah.
20:25:47  maybe its not a message and is just a bunch of keys for lockers..
20:25:57  or something like that
20:26:02  augur: PSHT WHAT SILLINESS
20:26:40  also, if it IS a code, surely you could figure it out pretty quickly, at least if it were binary, morse, baudot, ...
20:27:05  augur: >expecting intelligence from /r/gaming
20:27:09  true
20:27:21   http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f2wvt/is_this_a_secret_fallout_puzzle_it_looks_like_a/ <-- nice myst reference in the comments :D
20:27:27  yes
20:27:43  good thing its the first comment so i was guaranteed to see it as i read the comments.
20:27:55 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:28:36  Phantom_Hoover: Wait what, MC can still read my McRegion save.
20:28:53  ok its time to watch some lectures on the russian revolution
20:29:06  well, more of a discussion
20:29:39  oh. nevermind. this is boring and short
20:29:39  elliott, conversion hasn't happened yet?
20:29:48  Phantom_Hoover: I started a new mcregion game.
20:30:13  I'm still getting FPS drops.
20:31:01  Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, I'ma skip Better Grass, since Painterly has an equivalent as a texture option.
20:31:14  Phantom_Hoover: (OK, so with Better Grass I'd get 2/3 instead of 1/1 when there's dirt below, but I always thought that looked weird.)
20:31:27  Putting dirt below a grass block should not cause it to lose grass!
20:31:49  elliott: im making a tagging app
20:31:53  augur: for what
20:34:01 -!- ais523_ has joined.
20:34:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:34:10  Phantom_Hoover: Dude, I just did it all from scratch.
20:34:11 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
20:34:25  Phantom_Hoover: Optimine -> McRegion -> Mipmapping -> Better Light, in that order.
20:34:33  Side grass dirt is still biome-tinted.
20:34:35  hi ais523
20:34:39 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
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20:34:57 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
20:35:03  ais523: how would you recommend handling the fact that there are different types of change? one type for files (lists of lines), one type for directories (sets of directory entries), etc...
20:35:07  in scapegoat
20:35:36 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
20:36:37 -!- augur_ has joined.
20:36:45  Phantom_Hoover: *blink* mcpatcher JUST GOT UPDATED.
20:36:49  *This very second*.
20:36:54  It has custom water/lava now.
20:37:02  Phantom_Hoover: So tick custom water/lava, detick animated water/lava, and ENJOY
20:37:04  sorry, elliott, if you said anything after my response i didnt see it
20:37:05  :(
20:37:10   elliott: im making a tagging app
20:37:10   augur: for what
20:37:32  ok so you didnt get my answer
20:37:33  what tagged: files, urls, text; what os: mac; what purpose: nothing does precisely what i like
20:37:48  i hate tagging.
20:37:58 -!- augur has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:38:05 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
20:38:08  taggint
20:38:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:38:38  elliott: oh?
20:39:00  elliott: how do you organize your ideas and stuff you find interesting and so forth?
20:39:25  irc :P ... in practice i use a file system
20:39:29  in @ it's basically based on search
20:39:53  Phantom_Hoover: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU, it seems that mcpatcher's custom water/lava overrides mipmapping.
20:40:35  Phantom_Hoover: So I'll have to copy the custom files into minecraft.jar myself.
20:41:04 -!- p_q has joined.
20:41:41 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:42:38  OK, here's what I'll do: Optimine -> McRegion -> Mipmapping -> Better Light -> manual copy of custom water files. (If that does in fact work.)
20:42:43  Wait.
20:42:47  That won't solve the side grass issue.
20:43:04  Phantom_Hoover: OK, seriously, screenshot some damn side-grass for me, I do not believe that you do not see the issue with these mods.
20:43:13  elliott: well, i use a file system too, but my organizational habits arent well adapted to file systems
20:43:13  Phantom_Hoover: What order did you install them in? You realise some of them overwrite the others?
20:43:28  elliott, no it doesn't.
20:43:33  augur: Nobody's are. But nobody likes tagging either, and you'll slip doing it eventually.
20:43:36  Phantom_Hoover: No it doesn't what?
20:43:44  elliott: will not! :|
20:43:50  i used delicious right up to the end
20:43:54  that was like four years worth
20:44:00  delicious still exists, you know
20:44:15  yeah but its supposedly closing
20:44:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (*.net *.split).
20:44:40 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split).
20:44:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (*.net *.split).
20:44:42 -!- Tritonio has quit (*.net *.split).
20:45:08  unless they changed their plans
20:45:08  augur: no it isn'
20:45:08  t
20:45:09  yahoo are selling it
20:45:09  which has always been the case
20:45:10  ITT: believing everything you hear on reddit
20:45:10  and then not seeing follow-up posts
20:45:11  ah ok, well they were supposedly just closing
20:45:12  either way, i want tags for my files and for ideas too, not just links
20:45:12  based on one slide from a presentation that never actually said that.
20:45:13  files are useless.
20:45:14  Phantom_Hoover: Do not what.
20:45:15  elliott, mipmapping still works.
20:45:33  elliott: files are useful!
20:45:34  i have lots of them
20:45:34  so do you!
20:45:35  augur: They are not useful.
20:45:44  Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me what order you installed mods in.
20:45:44  why not
20:45:50  Phantom_Hoover: Also, be aware that I'm using the new mcpatcher which was updated at 8:25 pm.
20:45:54  Which is not the version you used.
20:46:35  augur: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html is a very whiny and very incomplete page, but it's more than you'd get out of me right now while I'm busy bugging Phantom_Hoover.
20:46:36  elliott, I used the mcpatcher which just came out.
20:46:43  "very whiny"
20:46:46  Phantom_Hoover: Are you going to give me the order of mods...?
20:46:57  augur: Or so I hear. Apparently italics are whiny, I use a lot of them.
20:47:15  elliott, Optimine, mcregion, mipmapping, Better Light + Grass, mcpatcher.
20:47:17  i was just commenting more on you commenting your own shit as whiny
20:47:33  augur: I didn't think it was whiny until everyone informed me it was. :p
20:47:41  x3
20:47:50  Phantom_Hoover: You mean that with Better Grass, which turns all the side of grass blocks into grass, you don't see tinted dirt? HOLY SHIT YOU'RE KIDDING ME
20:47:52  HOW AMAZING
20:47:59  Maybe that's because there IS NO DIRT?
20:48:04  elliott, no, erm, no.
20:48:09  Phantom_Hoover: What.
20:49:13  Better Grass leaves some blocks with the default side grass texture.
20:49:15  These are fine.
20:49:25  elliott: MATRIX DIRT?!
20:49:35  Phantom_Hoover: Screenshot, please. Also, what checkboxes did you tick in mcpatcher?
20:49:49  Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I suspect Better Grass is still the culprit, in that it probably overwrites the offending code entirely.
20:49:56  augur: Less talking, more reading!
20:51:00 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:51:21  elliott: it sounds like you want an Alto.
20:51:39  augur: Yes, please.
20:51:43 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
20:51:43  :)
20:51:50  augur: (Even Multics, the big behemoth predating Unix, had a form of orthogonal persistence.)
20:51:50  also, i agree with everything you said.
20:51:55 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:52:06  augur: And so you should use @!
20:52:07  Has someone told you that TeXnicard is used by writing Underload-like programs? I will tell you now that it is only partially true.
20:52:10  whats @
20:52:19  augur: My pipe-dream OS of amazingness.
20:52:45  augur: It got a remarkably solid design a while ago, which I then completely liquefied by thinking about it some more.
20:52:51  Phantom_Hoover: checkboxes!
20:52:57  elliott: Can you use pipes with it?
20:53:03  zzo38: No.
20:53:08  Strictly forbidden.
20:53:23  elliott: a friend of mine is creating an OS
20:53:25  or is mulling it over
20:53:33  elliott: Then why did you call it pipe-dream OS? And how can it be used without pipes?
20:53:37 -!- charlvn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:53:37  augur: It's probably shit. @ has features such as being awesome, which is the opposite of the feature of being shit.
20:53:48  ive been pushing for a completely radical rethinking of how it should work
20:53:49  zzo38: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:pipe-dream
20:53:55  Custom water, IIRC.
20:54:04  augur: @ is what happens when you radically rethink radical rethinking.
20:54:07  basically where everything is data-oriented instead of application oriented
20:54:11  Phantom_Hoover: It is important which animated box you ticked.
20:54:16  augur: @ had that from version 0.1...
20:54:16  outside the box
20:54:23  elliott: good!
20:54:25 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
20:54:29  @ is INSIDE THE CARDBOARD COMPRISING THE BOX
20:54:30  elliott, lava.
20:54:32  And fire.
20:54:39  Phantom_Hoover: But not water? Hmm.
20:54:46  Phantom_Hoover: How are you sure that mipmapping still functions?
20:54:47  elliott: what language are you writing it in?
20:55:11  elliott, yes, because things in the distance look nice.
20:55:16  augur: @lang. (I'm not kidding. Both @ and @lang are, of course, placeholder names; @ has also gone by ElliottOS in the past in here.)
20:55:19  Phantom_Hoover: You could just be blind.
20:55:30  Phantom_Hoover: OK, I'll retry in a minute...
20:55:31  Phantom_Hoover: I still suspect Better Grass, though.
20:55:31  I like to have many commands acting like filters so that you can use pipes for everything.
20:55:40  elliott: whats @lang like
20:55:47  augur: You know Haskell?
20:55:51  a little!
20:56:08  augur: Imagine if Haskell decided to stop being practical and became completely and utterly hardcore, thus ensuring it could never reasonably interact with existing systems.
20:56:13  augur: That's @lang.
20:56:30  i thought haskell WASNT practical :(
20:56:38  augur: @ itself is actually written in two languages: x86-64 assembly, and @lang.
20:56:59  augur: The assembly includes an efficient, parallel lazy specialiser for @lang (WARNING WARNING OPEN RESEARCH TOPIC WARNING).
20:57:04 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:57:05  augur: This comprises the implementation of @lang.
20:57:14  k
20:57:18  augur: It also has task switching code and the security system.
20:57:27  augur: Everything above that, including just about all hardware drivers, are written in @lang.
20:57:45  Indeed, in @lang, you can write to any memory address you want, so long as you have permission to.
20:58:02  (Of course, you are unlikely to get such blanket permission; drivers will get permission to write to restricted regions of memory if they require it, but little else.)
20:58:49  Phantom_Hoover: How much convincing do you need to redo it all without Better Grass to see if that's the cure?
20:59:07  augur: You seem like you have lost interest!
20:59:13  i have.
20:59:20  elliott, you would actually have to pay me.
20:59:23  augur: What did I say. :p
20:59:35  augur: Was it "OPEN RESEARCH TOPIC"?
20:59:38  something other than nothing
20:59:47  augur: Gee, thanks?
20:59:49  no i kid i kid
20:59:58  you answered the question.
21:00:02  ;__; INSUFFICIENTLY
21:00:17  augur: But there are so many INTERESTING DESIGN DECISIONS.
21:01:14 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:01:26  augur: I'm giving you ammo to make your friend redesign their OS here!
21:02:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:02:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:02:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
21:02:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:02:33  not really
21:03:05  augur: Psht, your tagging program is the worst ever, then. :p
21:04:14  ok
21:04:54 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:05:05 -!- p_q has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:05:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:05:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit).
21:06:00  augur: I AM DISAPPOINTED IN YOU
21:06:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:06:15  ok?
21:06:20  psht!
21:06:30 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
21:06:56  elliott is #esoteric.
21:07:04  Yes, yes I am.
21:07:14  If he were not here, this channel would have no properties in common with the channel as it is.
21:07:26  Every predicate true of it now would be false, and vice versa.
21:07:53  tswett: So if I left, the channel would not exist?
21:08:12  careful, you might say something you Kant
21:08:21 -!- acetoline has joined.
21:08:54  It would not exist, and the set of people in it would be the complement of the set of people currently in it.
21:08:59  Let's try it out.
21:09:01 -!- elliott has left (?).
21:09:50  Of course, the tunes.org logs still log this channel as it would be if elliott were still here.
21:10:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:10:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
21:10:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:10:25 -!- elliott has joined.
21:10:27  They do? Drat.
21:10:34  Phantom_Hoover: you should probably join and then identify, not vice versa.
21:10:36  What do?
21:10:44  tswett, huh?
21:10:47  elliott: DUDE THAT WAS AWESOME
21:10:51  Phantom_Hoover: I have a theory. That theory is that mipmapping doesn't work, at all.
21:10:55  tswett: How do you know, you weren't here.
21:10:59  Everything false was true and vice versa!  Except for some things.
21:11:07  elliott, yes, it does.
21:11:11  tswett: Oh wait ... it briefly obeyed the property "is a gigantic space monster that eats everyone".
21:11:12  Yes, but the set of people in this channel was equal to {tswett}.
21:11:15  Phantom_Hoover: It used to! But now it doesn't!
21:11:17  Phantom_Hoover: OK, new theory.
21:11:23  Of course it did.
21:11:23  Mipmapping has to come before McRegion.
21:11:36  tswett, also, I should point out that I have no control over what XChat does.
21:11:42  Yes you do.
21:11:45  Specify a server password instead.
21:12:42 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
21:12:52  * Phantom__Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
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21:14:01 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:14:09 -!- coppro has joined.
21:14:12  does mindmapping have something more to it than categorizing in treeform and being restricted to a small amount of data in nodes?
21:14:21  Phantom_Hoover: I swear. Mipmapping does nothing.
21:14:21  oklopol: no
21:14:21  or
21:14:25  um why would you want to join before identifying, wouldn't that temporarily reveal the cloak
21:14:30  are you talking about something other than the general concept :D
21:14:31  Phantom_Hoover: Oh, well NOW it does.
21:14:36  oerjan: that's what he currently does
21:14:37  oklopol: mipmapping
21:14:40  not mindmapping
21:14:43  wait what
21:14:48  :D
21:14:50  i read that as mindmapping every time
21:14:53  :D
21:14:53  it's a 3d graphics thing
21:15:04  was kinda wondering why you'd be suddenly talking about that
21:15:05  oklopol: you know when you look at far away stuff on minecraft... actually you don't since you use tiny
21:15:08  but if you've ever used far,
21:15:11  and if you move your mouse left to right
21:15:13  you can see it warp around
21:15:18  because of it scaling the texture down
21:15:18  but i wanted to ask the question so didn't feel like googling for what you might actually mean
21:15:25  mipmapping just uses less pixels in the texture the further away it is
21:15:28  meaning far-away stuff looks nice
21:15:36  less detailed, but nicer
21:15:38  when looking around
21:15:49  (this warping is especially noticeable on the Stairs near spawn on the server)
21:16:04  elliott: was tswett doing that opposite thing when he suggested it, then?
21:16:13  oerjan: Phantom_Hoover was suggesting the proper way
21:16:14  erm
21:16:17  oerjan: tswett was suggesting the proper way
21:16:18  to Phantom_Hoover
21:16:23  who was doin it rong
21:16:28 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:16:28 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:16:32  is mipmapping the name of this technique, or some tool?
21:16:34  Ilari = Vorpal
21:16:37  oklopol: name of the technique
21:16:46  because i think i've heard the term, maybe it was in that one book i read once
21:16:53  anyway that's kind of an obvious thing to do
21:16:55  oklopol: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
21:17:02  It's not as simple as just activating mip-mapping.
21:17:02  Initially it looked really bad because some blocks looked broken.
21:17:02  Glass, for instance had black halos and was completely black in the distance.
21:17:02  I fixed this by adjusting the alpha testing, so it discards everything with alpha < 0.5 instead of alpha=0.
21:17:02  what remains is that glass almost disappears in the distance.
21:17:06  Then, water had a purple shade in the distance.
21:17:08  The fix for that is somewhat of a compromise: I clamp the mipmapping level so there's always at least one pixel per texture.
21:17:11  so technical :P
21:17:15  oklopol: oh it improves fps too
21:17:17  very slightly
21:17:39  oklopol: The name is also derived from latin, so the technique is doubly awesome.
21:17:55  are you sure :P
21:18:07  it's not really a technique, it's an obvious thing to do
21:18:17  It also eats a bit more texture memory, but, well, nowadays cards seem to have gigabytes of it.
21:18:19  oh indeed it is
21:18:25  where does it come from
21:18:34  fizzie: do you still use tronic
21:18:39  okIn 3D computer graphics texture filtering, MIP maps (also mipmaps) are pre-calculated, optimized collections of images that accompany a main texture, intended to increase rendering speed and reduce aliasing artifacts. They are widely used in 3D computer games, flight simulators and other 3D imaging systems. The technique is known as mipmapping. The letters "MIP" in the name are an acronym of the Latin phrase multum in parvo, meaning "much in a
21:18:39  small space". Mipmaps need more space in memory. They also form the basis of wavelet compression.
21:18:40  oklopol: In 3D computer graphics texture filtering, MIP maps (also mipmaps) are pre-calculated, optimized collections of images that accompany a main texture, intended to increase rendering speed and reduce aliasing artifacts. They are widely used in 3D computer games, flight simulators and other 3D imaging systems. The technique is known as mipmapping. The letters "MIP" in the name are an acronym of the Latin phrase multum in parvo, meaning "muc
21:18:41  h in a small space". Mipmaps need more space in memory. They also form the basis of wavelet compression.
21:18:47  worst name ever
21:18:50  MUCH IN A SMALL SPACE MAPS
21:18:55  i was thinking i'd pay a couple thousand for a computer in february, SO I NEVER HAVE TO BUY A NEW ONE AGAIN
21:19:01  i hope there isn't a flaw in my logic
21:19:08  About gigabytes, or about it using more?
21:19:14  elliott:  Phantom_Hoover: you should probably join and then identify, not vice versa.
21:19:15  oklopol: i can get parts for you, i'm GOOD at that!
21:19:23  oklopol: i didn't do it for Phantom_Hoover because his budget was lame
21:19:27  i'm already paying a friend to do that
21:19:27  but a couple thousand euros i could do a lot with
21:19:30  DARN
21:19:30 -!- Vorpal has joined.
21:19:35  but i'll do it for free, and am more awesome?
21:19:43  you're killing small businesses
21:19:44  that work for free
21:19:45  like me
21:19:46  he would do it for free
21:19:49  or is it working for free that's killing us
21:19:50  i'm not sure
21:19:55  oerjan: Oh. Weird.
21:20:35  elliott: I haven't tried MC post the 1.2 update at all; so I'm not sure how to answer. Theoretically speaking "yes, I'm still using Tronic"; but on the other hand the updater will wipe that, so maybe "no" is closer.
21:21:01  fizzie: Well, only very few packs are updated for the beta, but yeah that was what I meant (are you using it as of last time you played).
21:21:10 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
21:21:22  I was, yes.
21:21:36  "Information wants to be free!" -- obnoxious. slogan.
21:21:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:22:02  Phantom_Hoover: OK, hypothesis. Mipmapping only works the first time you load a world.
21:22:11  elliott: he _was_ talking about predicates reversing truth value at about the same time though
21:22:21  Phantom_Hoover: This theory holds up so far.
21:22:59  Phantom_Hoover: ADDITIONAL FACT: Side-grass only looks weird in some biomes.
21:22:59 -!- BMG has joined.
21:23:03  Travel to another, I bet you'll see the tinting.
21:23:06  A foresty one.
21:23:20  elliott, why is it that mipmapping makes ladders white?
21:23:27  What.
21:23:37  Anyway, canya travel to another biome for me?
21:23:56  Or even just compare grass block above dirt block.
21:23:59  The dirt will *not* be the same colour.
21:25:03 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host).
21:25:03 -!- BMG has joined.
21:25:08 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
21:26:21 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:27:09  http://imgur.com/gkWnC
21:27:13  elliott, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH
21:27:36  I blame Better Grass and holy shit whatever that four-block thing is, it is hideous, is that cobble?
21:27:47  Get rid of that.
21:28:03  Phantom_Hoover: Your 1/1-side-grass is seemingly not mip mapped.
21:28:15  Eh?
21:28:37  Phantom_Hoover: Look at the side grass in the distance.
21:28:42  Compare with the top grass.
21:28:46  Ho ho. Better Grass does indeed fix things.
21:29:02  ...And?
21:29:08  Looks mipmapped to me.
21:29:16  Stuff in the distance is fine.
21:29:29  The side of grass blocks aren't.
21:29:35  Oh wait, they are.
21:29:38  Verified locally.
21:32:11  Phantom_Hoover: Views like this make me want biome-compliant grass working properly on the side. Badly. http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
21:32:14  (WARNING: PRETTY)
21:33:19  Phantom_Hoover exploded from the pretty.
21:33:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:35:10  fizzie: You get to appreciate it, then: http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
21:37:46 * fizzie explodes too.
21:38:57  fizzie: How much is it bothering you that I didn't pick up the pumpkins beforehand?
21:46:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:47:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Guest93753.
21:48:30  Hello, Guest93753.
21:48:43  fizzie: Can you please please please get ineiros to the requisite level of drunkenness to update to the stock beta server tonight?
21:48:56 -!- aloril_ has joined.
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21:49:06 -!- Guest93753 has joined.
21:49:41 -!- Guest93753 has changed nick to Phantom__Hoover.
21:49:45  phantom ho kekekekekeke
21:50:37  elliott: I was supposed to, on Friday, but he went and got some sort of a flu thing and was too feverish for that.
21:50:43  Phantom__Hoover: I just can't stop taking screenshots... http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Yg This is how Minecraft should come by default.
21:50:47 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:50:50  Phantom__Hoover: Fast, CPU-friendly, and absurdly pretty.
21:51:11  elliott, I still get the FPS drops even with mcregion.
21:51:15  Now we just need shader-powered colour light, like in that beautiful screenshot of the unreleased shader with red redstone torch light...
21:51:21  Phantom__Hoover: Well, it can't be perfect.
21:51:29  But I definitely couldn't play with all these fancy mods seamlessly before.
21:51:39  huh?
21:51:43  j-invariant: ?
21:51:44  something to make minecrafpt faster?
21:51:51  j-invariant: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717
21:51:54  j-invariant: and also install mcregion:
21:51:58  j-invariant: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160
21:52:07  i want these graphics :D
21:52:09  j-invariant: (updates will make your saves inaccessible but there's a conversion tool so you can use them)
21:52:18  j-invariant: those graphics are what me and Phantom__Hoover just got working basically :P
21:52:27  j-invariant: how good is your gpu/cpu?
21:52:33  j-invariant: do you play on Far/Fancy?
21:52:43  dunno
21:52:43  no
21:52:53  j-invariant: can you do Far/Fancy without your computer lagging?
21:52:57  failing that, Normal/Fancy?
21:53:08  Far/Dandy.
21:53:15  if you can't play Normal/Fancy smoothly, it's very unlikely you'll be able to get all these mods working smoothly, even with optimine and mcregion
21:53:25  although mipmapping helps a bit
21:54:22  j-invariant: basically: Install Optimine; install McRegion; install mipmapping; install Better Light and Better Grass; use mcpatcher on a customised Painterly Pack, check Custom Water, Animated Lava and Animated Fire, decheck the rest. If you have problems with any step in this just ask me for help. :p
21:54:45  I have to say, it's well worth it.
21:54:57  ty
21:55:05  Also playing fullscreened helps for prettiness. :p
21:55:20  j-invariant: the checkboxes in mcpatcher are very unintuitive btw but those are the options you want
21:57:43  elliott: Might update in the morning.
21:58:00  ineiros: It's very, very early morning!
21:58:11  ineiros: BTW, after this last hMod release, there'll be no more.
21:58:30  It's all going to the "super-fancy" vapourware pre-pre-pre-alpha Bukkit.
21:58:38  It's past midnight here, so it qualifies as a morning.
21:58:43  ineiros: See?
21:58:46  You should update RIGHT NOW
21:59:05  Phantom__Hoover: Problem solved. Starting a world in full-screen doesn't do mipmapping. Seriously.
21:59:07  Wtf. :p
21:59:55  elliott, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODzO7Lz_pw
22:00:01  MC IRL with a toaster.
22:00:43  TED talks overstep my upsettingly-short attention span.
22:00:46  Sorry.
22:02:40  Phantom__Hoover: 50-60 fps standing still, 30-40 fps moving. Booyah.
22:03:01  TL;DR: it takes the best part of human civilisation as it presently stands to make a toaster.
22:03:30  Heh.
22:03:37  Phantom__Hoover: Wait. You don't use view bobbing, do you?
22:03:42  I do.
22:03:42  Phantom__Hoover, I watched that video. Awesome.
22:03:49  Phantom__Hoover: ... how do you live with yourself?
22:04:09  It looks so mechanical when you just glide over the ground.
22:06:40 -!- Behold has joined.
22:06:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:08:28 -!- charlvn has joined.
22:08:46  I love the way he uses moulds made of a log.
22:09:18  Phantom__Hoover: 16 PUMPKINS IN ONE FIELD
22:11:02 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:11:28 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:11:32  Phantom__Hoover: I'm trying out a new playstyle.
22:11:36 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
22:11:50  Hopefully now it will not disconnect due to server problem.
22:11:52  Phantom__Hoover: Mariner.
22:12:15  Phantom__Hoover: I spend my time in the ocean, searching out new lands; in the day, I land on them, take useful materials, and sail on.
22:12:40  elliott: Do you mean, you steal them?
22:12:45  What?
22:12:49  Steal what?
22:13:08  Steal the materials.
22:13:18  zzo38: Nobody has laid claim to them, so how can it be stealing?
22:13:41  elliott: Are you sure?
22:13:55  Don't be so sure.
22:14:07  zzo38: There are no houses, or indeed any signs of building, or any change to the landscape at all; no signs; nothing.
22:14:19  So if someone has laid claim to them, they haven't exactly made it explicit.
22:14:21  And what kind of materials are they?
22:14:33  Wood from trees. Coal. Iron. Stone.
22:15:07  Well, don't steal too much of them, otherwise it will become empty and the trees and stuff can be important.
22:15:20  zzo38: I replant the saplings from the trees so that more grow.
22:15:48  elliott: OK. But please do not cut *all* the trees at once, at least!!
22:15:54  I don't.
22:15:59  Good.
22:16:51  http://davepenguin.imgur.com/the_candle
22:19:12  Seen it. It is cool.
22:20:06  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kRGx--e-w
22:20:08  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:20:30  Has anyone played A.I. Wars?
22:22:12  impomatic: I have not. I do not know what that is.
22:22:22  Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1: Good lord. Spiders can swim. I only hope that my boat can outrun these abominable creatures. There is wonderful land to the side of me, but I cannot stop now; there will be others like it, I am sure. For now, I approach morning ... as fast as my boat will take me.
22:22:26  OH MAN THIS IS SO CHEESY I LOVE IT
22:22:29  Phantom__Hoover: ISN'T IT
22:22:58  elliott, Minecraft LPs: SO YESTERDAY
22:23:05  OOLITE LPs ARE WHERE IT'S AT
22:23:14  NOTE: THERE IS ONLY ONE OOLITE LP AND IT'S CRAP
22:23:19  zzo38: it's some kind of programming game with robotic insects and 3d graphics, I don't know much about it - http://programminggames.org/AIWars-The-Insect-Mind.ashx
22:23:54  Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum: A perfectly square hole in the world, down to lands of lava and void. What hath God wrought upon this sea? Have I tread into curséd waters?
22:24:03  (Chunk loading error)
22:24:07  Ah, right.
22:24:09  SAIL ONTO IT
22:24:15  Phantom__Hoover: btw that toaster thing is exactly what i meant by this being an utterly uninteresting world, it takes a fuckload of work to make it interesting!
22:24:30  but i suppose that work has been done already, so maybe i should complain less
22:24:42  Phantom__Hoover: No. :p
22:25:19  Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 2: There are beasts frozen in a permanent expression of horror, made out of unearthly materials, stalking me silently. I am losing my faith.
22:26:09  elliott, squid?
22:26:25  Creepers.
22:27:06  Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 3: A forest alight. If the unholy creatures did not dwell nearby, I would inspect. Perhaps they did this. There is no land ahead of me that I can see.
22:27:17  *ablaze
22:27:26  Lava?
22:29:23  Phantom__Hoover: No.
22:30:22  Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 4: Never so fast have I tried to eliminate dirt as when I saw I was careering towards it. I did not get out; I knew the skeletal archers must have been watching me intently. But now my boat is a pile of wood and I am alone in the night. I am not even sure I have the wood to repair it.
22:30:56  elliott, MC really needs better oceans.
22:31:09  The crappy little lakes it has now don't cut it.
22:32:26  Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 5: I hastily built a workbench and my boat again; thank God I had the materials. And I even managed to remove my workbench, but as I removed the few remaining blocks of dirt to allow me to pass them with the possibility of return if, as I suspect, it was a dead end, a zombie appeared next to me, after slinking up unnoticed. My boat is in the water but I am not in it, and I fear that the zombie wil
22:32:26  l soon decimate my health. I am at a loss.
22:33:19  http://www.universetoday.com/20671/ion-shield-for-interplanetary-spaceships-now-a-reality/
22:33:27  Effing science journalists.
22:33:36  Phantom__Hoover: EXCUSE ME I REQUIRE ADVICE?
22:33:37  Wait, no.
22:33:40  Effing Redditors.
22:33:45  Phantom__Hoover: "The USS Enterprise has many uses for its deflector shields, including repelling the Borg (Paramount Pictures)"
22:33:50  --caption
22:33:57  OK, effing science journalists.
22:34:12  Why not both?
22:34:24  Yes, both!
22:34:48  I can kill a few when I murder Sgeo's father and stepmother.
22:35:02  Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night, addendum 6: Braaaiiiins. Braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins... everything is so much better now... braaaaiins... the sea restricts movement, it is no place I want to be ... all I desire ... is FLESH...
22:35:08  (I died.)
22:35:24  what
22:35:34  nooga: A zombie killed me while I played a mariner.
22:36:37  > 1 + 1
22:36:38    2
22:36:54  j-invariant: yes, you can rely on haskell's arithmetic procedures working
22:36:59  even if they're not proven :D
22:37:09  #esoteric: bunch of smart computer wizzards playing with blocks like small boys + some audience
22:37:29  nooga: you forgot the small boy playing with blocks like a small boy
22:37:37  oh yes, me
22:37:41  :-D
22:37:43  irrelevant
22:38:03  nooga: bought the damn game yet? I need slaves.
22:38:45  no, i'm busy finding this lapis
22:38:50  lol
22:40:41  elliott: just make some TNT and use it for digging
22:40:52  nooga: we already have shitloads of TNT
22:40:55  the problem is, it's not nearly enough
22:40:59  we've used up almost 9 stacks
22:41:03  or even more, actually
22:41:10  nooga: and it's still only a tiny, tiny corner
22:41:12  that isn't even all down to bedrock
22:41:18  also, we need help draining, too
22:41:57  by nine stacks, sure you mean 9 boxes? i have at least a big box full of 9 boxes of exploded tnt
22:42:04  *surely
22:42:24  oklopol: xD
22:42:26  yeah cuz you can stack boxes
22:42:28  as we all know
22:42:40  when you say stack boxes, surely you mean box boxes
22:42:47  actually it would be nice if you could put chests in chests... not chests in inventory obviously
22:42:52  but chests in chests, nested only one level
22:42:53  would be like
22:42:56  a one-chest storage solution for life
22:43:14  ofc stacking chests works
22:43:15  you should be able to make a backpack
22:43:16  with a scrollbar
22:43:18  elliott, you *can* put chests in chests.
22:43:22  Phantom__Hoover: _with items_
22:43:24  that lets you store more stuff
22:43:27  so one 64-stack of chests is as good as 64 chests
22:43:27  the inventory is smallllllll
22:43:33   you should be able to make a backpack with a scrollbar
22:43:36  and one large chest of 64-stacks of chests could store EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE
22:43:58  oklopol: what i would really like to see is the held-item bar being redesigned.
22:44:09  oklopol: there you should just be four rows of inventory, and at the end of each row, scrolling past gives you the next one
22:44:11  surely you mean it could sore a big box full of universes?
22:44:11  and it wraps around
22:44:16  *store
22:44:18  so you don't have to fucking drag things down and up all the time
22:45:33  i'm trying to respond but i'm not sure what to surely-you-mean
22:45:49  oklopol: :D
22:46:11  oklopol: surely you mean you should be able to scroll through the contents of infinite universes in the bottom bar
22:46:29  by bottom bar, surely you mean a big box of bottom bars?
22:46:53  i have at least 3 big boxes of bottom bars in my base
22:46:54  maybe the inventory should just be displayed in a sidebar
22:47:04  in a square
22:47:08  and you enter two digits, row then col, to select an item
22:47:21  also it'd have the 2x2 crafting there
22:47:28  and uh
22:47:29  your picture
22:47:33  and the armour stuff
22:48:26  i'd like mc more if instead of objects, you'd have big boxes full of objects, like you know use the chest icon as the icon of every object and name object x "a bix bog of x's"
22:48:37  :D
22:48:55  oklopol: or you could just make stacks go up to 1728
22:48:57  which is equivalent
22:48:58  oh wait
22:49:00  that's for a small chest
22:49:11  oklopol: 3456 (omg that's ASCENDING)
22:49:14  3, 4, 5, 6 ?!£NRjhkflghvmkjg
22:49:15  pojmklgtr
22:49:15  LOL, small chest... surely you mean a bix box of small chests
22:49:27  bix box, is that like weetabix
22:49:36  erm
22:49:41  sorry
22:49:43  by bix box
22:49:52  i of course meant a big box of bix boxes.
22:50:16  Heh... "New" indications on IETF I-Ds are based on date. That resulted obsolete version of I-D having "new" indiction.
22:50:42  oklopol: ah, so infinite storage?
22:50:42  Ilari: surely you mean it's based on a big box of dates?
22:50:52  i should stop this before it stops being funny
22:50:54  well
22:51:02  oklopol: you're actually a big box of oklopols, right?
22:51:07  not really a danger of that anytime soon
22:51:12  but you know, in a couple of days
22:51:57  elliott: by a big box of oklopols, surely you mean a big box of big boxes of oklopols? i have like 5 big boxes of big boxes of oklopols in my base
22:52:06  oklopol: friendly word of advice
22:52:10  oklopol: DEAR GOD NEVER LET THEM ESCAPE
22:52:14  :D
22:52:21  true
22:52:31  i should certainly not let them escape
22:52:35  but can i ask you something?
22:52:37  yes
22:52:44  when you say friendly word of advice
22:52:54  surely you mean a big box of friendly words of advice?
22:52:55  i mean
22:52:57  :D
22:53:00  absolutely.
22:53:06  i have like 7 big boxes of friendly words of advice in my base.
22:53:08  whole BOOKS of advice.
22:53:14  whole big boxes of books of advice.
22:53:22  by whole books of advice, i should probably go to sleep
22:53:59  oklopol: what do you call it when you start a new world, walk around for most of the day, take in the sights, explore tons, build something small, die much much later, respawn, and find out that you built that thing at spawn?
22:54:05  i can't walk in straight lines :D
22:54:42  http://9gag.com/gag/29876/ THEY'VE FOUND OUR SECRET
22:55:03  :D
22:55:30  elliott: you call that the circle of life
22:55:32  Gregor: I don't remember anything about ear juice in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.
22:55:47  btw guys
22:55:48  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
22:55:51  ugliest logo ever?
22:55:58  ugliest box ever? with the logo at both sides, flipped on one
22:55:59  elliott: That's because we'd kept it a secret even through then, but now the damned Chinese have found it!
22:56:01  Yes.
22:56:17  seriously, every time i go to wp i'm like "wait this isn't wp, what the fuck is that logo"
22:56:22  "... oh. it's wp."
22:56:26  Their special content is a big picture of Jimbo.
22:56:31  I KNOW
22:56:53  Phantom__Hoover: the filename is best though
22:56:56  File:Jimmy Wales Fundraiser Appeal edit.jpg
22:57:01  yep, let's feature that
22:57:10  Gregor, can I clarify a point here?
22:57:22  Phantom__Hoover: I doubt it :P
22:57:33  Is Jew's ear Juice juice squeezed from a Jew's ear or juice that Jews pour into their ears?
22:57:37  IT'S AMBIGUOUS
22:57:45  Both.
22:57:51  Oh good. Then they still don't REALLY know the secret.
22:57:53  *WHEW*
22:57:59  wales must really like his face
22:58:00  Ear juice back and forth, forever.
22:58:05  oklopol: it's so beautiful
22:58:33  You know what the most useful thing about the NVIDIA X Server Settings is?
22:58:33  well it is a loveable face, if that guy tried to sell me a vacuum cleaner, i'd buy the hell out of it
22:58:42  It lets you enable a cursor shadow!
22:58:43  Fuck yeah!
22:58:47  That's the one thing I missed from Windows.
22:59:19   wales must really like his face ← naw, it doesn't look like a sheep's at all.
22:59:39  Heck... I think IANA IPv4 depletion will be all over the net (and not just reedit).
22:59:41  LOL i get the reference :DDDDDDDDDDDDDd
23:00:02  At least every blog related to IPv6 or IPv4 depletion.
23:00:18  Ilari: what's ipv4?
23:00:24  is it some sort of sports thing
23:00:40  :D
23:01:07  fizzie: can you not download mc skins??
23:01:10  i want to back mine up
23:01:11  ages ago, i decided i'd add something to all this ipv4 humble and jumble that's been going around on the channel
23:01:14  and now i did
23:01:14  or wait
23:01:17  what's the path to the png file?
23:01:17  and i feel a proud.
23:01:18  anyone know?
23:02:02  hi
23:02:04  sup?
23:02:25  no, this lattice is not complete
23:02:31  foundit
23:03:19  Of the two major IPv4 depletion estimates, the more pessimistic one is now in "any moment now" mode. The another gives less than a month left...
23:03:44  Ilari: how long until RIR depletion?
23:03:45  Woo, civilisation ends!
23:04:06  LET'S HAVE A PARTY
23:04:10  \o/
23:04:10            |
23:04:10            >\
23:05:06  i wonder how long it would take to make an ipv4 protocol from scratch
23:05:12 -!- MrPhone has joined.
23:05:44  maybe i should do a ted talk on that
23:06:17  This is variable;    curious does have any (good) graphics libraries?
23:06:21  That's difficult to estimate. Especially due publicity from IANA depletion... I hope that one graph I saw was misleading due to incorrect data processing...
23:06:21  Someone tell me how I subscribe to RSS feeds with Chrome.
23:06:35  MrPhone, we have esoteric graphics libraries.
23:06:38  Well, not really.
23:06:46  Phantom - extension
23:07:00  We have that non-Euclidean raytracer which I have not been working on solidly for about 6 months.
23:07:22  I meant haskell
23:07:39  Oh, right.
23:07:41  MrPhone: Like, what?
23:07:44  MrPhone: There's an SDL binding.
23:07:44  Non-Euclidean? Elliptic and Hyperbolic geometries? Or just General Relativity?
23:07:46  I can't help you there.
23:07:56  Ilari, GR? Hahahahahahahahahano.
23:08:00  Does haskell have something like tk or gtk?
23:08:09  It's not raytraceable for a start.
23:08:14  MrPhone: GTK
23:08:14  MrPhone: gtk2hs is a binding to gtk.
23:08:26  MrPhone: There's also Qt, I think... and Cocoa
23:08:33  MrPhone: Protip
23:08:36  And I don't even understand what the objects half of GR's equations rely on are so...
23:08:39  MrPhone: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html
23:08:44  MrPhone: Look at the categories :)
23:08:57  MrPhone: But what you want is a GUI toolkit, not a graphics library.
23:09:18  MrPhone: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Gtk2Hs Gtk2Hs is your best bet.
23:09:27  MrPhone: It's widely-used, well-maintained, and I gather has a decent API.
23:09:31  Will look later -on phone now due to busted internet
23:09:59  Of course it's not "perfect" as its use is mostly imperative/object oriented since Gtk is, but hey, it's not like you'd write all of your program in IO anyway.
23:09:59  Ilari, FWIW, I was kind of hoping that I'd be able to get it to do hyperbolic and elliptical geometries and maybe if thins turned out really well some arbitrary manifolds.
23:10:07  And thanks for the reference
23:10:13  There are some experimental projects to do purely-functional GUIs, but they're not really mature enough to use in practice.
23:10:27  Phantom__Hoover: fizzie: I have a new skin and it's even more beautiful than my last one: http://minecraft.net/skin/skin.jsp?user=ehird
23:10:31  Oh yeah, GR includes SR and SR is dynamic.
23:10:44  Ty elliot
23:11:13  j-invariant: did you get those mods installed?
23:11:15  MrPhone: Two Ts! :-)
23:11:18  elliott: no
23:11:19  I fell at the first stumbling block of not actually understanding how geodesic rays are calculated.
23:11:27  j-invariant: aw, did you not bother or was there a problem
23:11:36  elliott: I' going to do it later
23:11:41  ok :)
23:11:45  the java doens't work :(
23:11:46  elliott: Very rainbowy. (And yes, the URLs the client prints out don't seem to work for any old web browser; I don't know if it's about request headers or something.)
23:11:48  user=ehird
23:11:54  It's just a grey box FURPDKPDR
23:11:55  fizzie: Worked for me, I just wgetted it.
23:11:56  Elliott - no tab  completion
23:12:02  j-invariant: you have no java plugin :P
23:12:06  MrPhone: hehe ok
23:12:16  j-invariant: preview: http://minecraft.net/skin/ehird.png
23:12:17  oh there we go
23:12:18  just imagine that warped
23:12:19  ah
23:12:33 -!- MrPhone has quit (Quit: Phone).
23:12:34  that't cool
23:12:50  fizzie: Did you see how Notch is offering pirated versions of Minecraft due to his own incompetence?
23:14:05  You know, variable has been converted to the Functional Order rather well.
23:15:06  aw
23:16:46  I could be in a better mood right now
23:16:52  elliott, he wasn't in the Functional Order before?
23:16:57  Sgeo, did you elope with KT-AT?
23:16:59  Sgeo: Did KT AT not show up *again*?
23:17:03  She showed up
23:17:09  And...
23:17:11  Phantom__Hoover: No, I convinced him to learn Haskell.
23:17:17  But my happiness is pretty much entirely eclipsed by a belief she holds
23:17:23  Astrology?
23:17:25  Christianity?
23:17:25  That the Earth is flat?
23:17:26  Tooth fairy?
23:17:30  Homeopathy?
23:17:32  That P=NP?
23:17:35  That sugar is imaginary?
23:17:37  Phantom__Hoover: OMG
23:17:39  don't even joke about that
23:17:43  that's just sick
23:17:49  elliott, none of those are potentially lethal [I started typing this before you mentioned homeopathy]
23:17:54  That ZFC is inconsistent?
23:17:56  Sgeo: Breatharianism?
23:17:57  Say yes.
23:18:00  Please to god say yes.
23:18:14  A real-life breatharianist would be the awesome.
23:18:19  fizzie: They do exist, you know.
23:18:19  elliott: No, I didn't.
23:18:25  That Vitamin C can essentially cure cancer, and chemotherapy is essentially vitamin C.
23:18:29  Sgeo: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
23:18:34  You dodged a bullet, my friend.
23:18:43  Sgeo, get access to her perfume.
23:18:44  And this is the LAST person I'd expect to hold such a belief
23:18:47  Fill it with benzene.
23:18:57 * elliott notes to self: never let Phantom__Hoover near anyone I love.
23:19:03  Phantom__Hoover: hey don't dis that, Dick Lipton believes P=NP.  maybe.
23:19:11  oerjan, I want P=NP!
23:19:11  oerjan: t'was a joke
23:19:20  fizzie: The client downloads minecraft.jar?auth=...&..., but you can actually just elide the ? and everything after and it lets you download it.
23:19:31  fizzie: Notch quality protection.
23:19:34  people actually beleive P=NP? not just to be contrary?
23:19:35  Shortly after I met her, I was _convinced_ that she wouldn't hold such a belief
23:19:36  I can't wait for the Mojang condom.
23:19:45  j-invariant: Dick Lipton :-P
23:20:13  Sgeo: There are plenty of females in the universe ... and most of them don't even believe that Vitamin C causes cancer.
23:20:22  elliott, you read what I said wrong
23:20:26  Or you mistyped
23:20:29  Sgeo: I'm saying that it isn't a big deal :P
23:20:31  Erm.
23:20:31  *cures
23:20:39  Sgeo: But I am kind of upset, because now I have to start preparing another silly name...
23:20:57  The thing is, you wouldn't expect a cancer survivor to hold such a belief
23:21:22  X-D
23:21:29  Doged. A. Bullet.
23:21:32  Literally.
23:21:36  She probably shoots people for fun.
23:21:41  Bullets cure cancer.
23:21:44  Sgeo, benzene.
23:21:52  Phantom__Hoover: the "maybe" is part of his belief, though.
23:22:13   A real-life breatharianist would be the awesome. <-- what do they believe?
23:22:16  Sgeo: So, so, wait, what cured her -- did she drink a lot of orange juice and it cleared itself up?
23:22:27  Or was it, uh, lots of medical expertise and chemotherapy?
23:22:42  She got chemo. She's not against regular medicine
23:22:48  Sgeo: *real medicine
23:22:52  Sgeo: hey maybe she's the reincarnation of Linus Pauling.  that would be cool.  sort of.
23:22:56  Sgeo: But seriously, SHE BELIEVES CHEMOTHERAPY IS BASICALLY VITAMIN C?
23:23:01  THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE
23:23:30  Did you point out to her that vitamin C doesn't make you bald?
23:23:36  YES IT DOES
23:23:39  Just nobody's taken enough yet.
23:23:45  Chemotherapy results in LOTS of Vitamin C.
23:23:46  LOTS of it.
23:23:51  Like a HUNDRED oranges.
23:23:57  lol
23:23:58  She believes that vitamin C is free of side-effects
23:24:03  And thus is better than chemo
23:24:06  Sgeo: So it doesn't cure cancer?
23:24:13  Vorpal: That you can survive without eating; the justifications vary, sometimes you get things from the air by breathing, other times from the sunlight.
23:24:13  Sgeo, DID SHE NOT NOTICE HER SMEGGING HAIR FALLING OUT
23:24:17  "Oh god, I was drinking this orange juice and the most horrible thing happened... my cancer got cured!"
23:24:31  Phantom__Hoover: No, you see, only radiation Vitamin C causes hair falling out.
23:24:34  I think she was cured of her cancer before she formed this belief
23:24:36  fizzie, haha
23:24:36  Regular Vitamin C is better, because it doesn't.
23:24:43  fizzie, real life ones would be rather short lived
23:24:52  Vorpal: One of 'em took the Randi test, and was found sneaking into McDonald's around 04am, IIRC. But he said he just went there to breath in the nutrients.
23:24:56  elliott, chemotherapy isn't even radioactive!
23:25:07  Or maybe it was just some generic test and Randi reported it in the blog.
23:25:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:25:20  (I think he has a standing rule of not testing that sort of silliness.)
23:25:25  Sgeo, BENZENE
23:25:38  Phantom__Hoover: It's pure Vitamin C-enriched uranium.
23:25:41  fizzie, Randi?
23:25:58  Vorpal: James Randi, a noted skeptic.
23:26:06  Vorpal doesn't know who Randi is? lol.
23:26:07  and illusion maker
23:26:09  (And a stage magician.)
23:26:10  Right.
23:26:17  it's not magic! it's an illusion
23:26:29  j-invariant, only kind of magic anyone's going to see.
23:26:31  fizzie: There was one where they first did it in a city, deteriorated; "yeah well the air isn't pure enough!"; did it in the beautiful countryside, condition deteriorated, testers said fuck it, and cancelled it.
23:26:33  Why not call it magic?
23:26:45  Randi always makes the distinction
23:26:56 -!- impomatic has left (?).
23:26:58  fizzie: But yeah, another famous breatharianist has been found ordering meals on planes and such.
23:27:02  j-invariant: "James Randi James Randi has an international reputation as a magician and escape artist --", directly from randi.org; I'm pretty sure he's called it magic too.
23:27:34  A magician is an illusionist; a magician does magic tricks; magic tricks are illusions; a magician does not do magic, but "magic" is a common abbreviation for magic tricks.
23:27:39 * Phantom__Hoover logreads
23:27:41  So really it's fine to say he does magic, because it's an abbreviation in context.
23:27:46  01:29:13 * Sgeo decides not to state his sexual wishes in the channel
23:27:59  But what are your sexual wishes Sgeo? We need to know!
23:28:17  Clearly he wants his partner to dress up as a macrophage.
23:28:36  yes, that's logical.
23:29:07  And then have some sort of weird blood-furry-vore.
23:29:19  DISGUSTING
23:29:39  Phantom__Hoover: impossible. blood is not kosher!
23:29:44  :-D
23:29:59  oerjan, ah, but which constituent of blood?
23:31:09  Also, HE isn't doing the eating.
23:31:34  Clearly this is why his stepmother didn't want him seeing non-Jewish girls.
23:31:49  it all makes sense now!
23:32:59  The pieces of the puzzle are fitting together!
23:33:07  Sgeo, YOUR SILENCE SPEAKS VOLUMES
23:33:22  microscopic pieces
23:33:48  oerjan, maybe even... ANTIBODY PIECES
23:33:57  does anyone have that archive of the frappr, just realised i lost mine
23:34:13 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:34:53  http://www.stewarthomesociety.org/images/gallery/necrocard.jpg lawlwtf
23:35:46 -!- variable has joined.
23:35:57  Gregor: old
23:36:13  Gregor: that was actually made by some i think performance artist who actually carries it
23:36:17  not that it holds any legal weight of course :)
23:40:58  i'd rather have sex after my death than be eaten by worms
23:41:04  or burned
23:41:07  or pretty much anything
23:41:35  I would rather not be buried when I am dead
23:41:59 -!- charlvn has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:42:01  me neither, it is a waste of space
23:43:01  I also would rather not funeral for when I am dead
23:43:29  hi zzo38
23:43:30  why?
23:43:36  why no funeral
23:43:53  they're no fun at all
23:44:23  I would rather not die\
23:45:32  yeah eral is latin for not at all
23:47:20  Dingus Maximus died. Well that's fun eral.
23:47:39  hey
23:47:46  i just got what elliott meant by that
23:47:51  it was a joke!
23:47:53 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
23:47:54  see
23:47:55  INDEED
23:47:57  fun-eral
23:48:00  very
23:48:00  oklodurp
23:48:03  fun-not-at-all
23:48:20  oklopol: /nick oklodurp
23:48:35  okloplo
23:48:41  I'M ACTUALLY BBER SMART
23:48:44  *VERY
23:48:48   I would rather not die\ ← UNTIL YOU BECOME SENESCENT AND ARE PHAGOCYTOSED BY A SEXY MACROPHAGE
23:48:56  +quote  I'M ACTUALLY BBER SMART
23:48:56  Bieber Smart? That doesn't sound very smart at all ...
23:49:14  :D
23:49:22  you're just ignorant
23:49:37  but is he bber ignorant?
23:49:42  *justin gnorant
23:50:47  j-invariant:     Could not deduce (Peano n) from the context (Peano (S n))
23:50:48  it's "justin bieber"?
23:50:58  that doesn't sound right
23:51:08  there was some other justin
23:51:16  i guess there could be two famous justins
23:51:25  timberlake? :P
23:51:28  timberlake
23:51:29  yeah
23:51:40  elliott: hum
23:51:41  that's like some famous programmer or what
23:51:46 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:51:47  j-invariant: :D
23:51:54  j-invariant: i should probably do it as a type family
23:51:57  or something
23:52:12  bieber is a singer i think
23:52:20  and has a really high voice?
23:52:48  i read this in a youtube comment i think
23:53:54  YOU SAY JUSTIN BIEBER, I SAY METAL BAND #1; YOU SAY SPICE GIRLS, I SAY METAL BAND #2; etc.
23:54:06  i have to conclude people who listen to metal are retarded
23:54:51  how ironic
23:54:56  You say? Justin Bieber,I say PARAMORE!!! You say Lady Gaga,I say Evanescence You say Miley Cyrus,I say Slipknot You say? T-Pain,I say Three Days Grace You say Emenem,I say Linkin Park You say Jonas Brother,Isay Green Day
23:54:58  oklopol, the correct deduction is "people who comment on music videos on YouTube are retarded."
23:55:16  92% of teens have turned to pop and hip-hop.If? you are part of the? 8% that still listens to real music, copy and paste this message to 5 other videos.? DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF ROCK AND ROLL DIE!!!!!!!
23:55:36  7 exclamation marks.
23:55:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
23:55:42  That's some grade-A stupid there.
23:55:55  I love it when people say things are ironic ironically.
23:55:56  are you sure it wins the actual content in stupidity?
23:55:58  How ironic!
23:56:04  i mean, they actually DO copy paste that around :D
23:56:34  oklopol, believe me, I know.
23:56:39  :P
23:58:00 -!- sshc has joined.
23:58:14  Why has Sgeo not taken on board my dating advice.
23:58:29  Phantom__Hoover, I'm not a murderer, and I still like her
23:58:42  Just... am fearful for her safety
23:58:47  Sgeo, just give her loads of orange juice!
23:59:11  I would not stab someone who believes that they are immortal, either
23:59:12  Phantom__Hoover: did you suggest he kill her or what?
23:59:40  oklopol, I suggested he put benzene in her perfume in order to demonstrate that vitamin C does not, in fact, cure cancer.

2011-01-16:

00:00:04 * Phantom__Hoover → sleep
00:00:05  also who puts slipknot and evanescence on the same list :D what's their connection?
00:00:15  "electric guitar -> metal!"
00:00:29 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:00:50  and who puts eminem and justin bieber on the same list
00:00:53  what's their connection
00:01:07  well umm maybe i shouldn't analyze this further
00:01:11  They're both jokingly made fun of by some group
00:01:25  ?
00:01:33  can you elaborate
00:01:40  i'm referring to the thing i pasted
00:04:06  People hate Justin Bieber for no reason, and I'm sure people hate Eminem for no reason
00:04:11  YOU SAY C++, I SAY BRAINFUCK!!!!! YOU SAY JAVA, I SAY UNLAMBDA!! 6% OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03% SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, COPY AND PASTE THIS TO 5 OTHER PROGRAMMING CHANNELS!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF ETC
00:04:11 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:04:17 -!- sshc has joined.
00:04:29  i would make a great retard
00:04:33  really i wouldn't have to change a thing
00:04:57  YOU SAY C++, I SAY BRAINFUCK!!!!! YOU SAY JAVA, I SAY UNLAMBDA!! 6%  OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03%  SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, COPY AND PASTE THIS TO  5 OTHER PROGRAMMING CHANNELS!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF  ETC
00:05:16  j-invariant: what were the channels?
00:05:20  just this one
00:05:22  oh
00:05:28  darn, i wish elliott was here
00:05:36  i'm not
00:05:42  yeah, i know
00:05:48  "6%  OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03%  SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES"
00:05:50  otherwise i would've said
00:05:53  yay, elliott is here
00:05:54  i think there's a /prog/ meme like that :}
00:06:00  or well, was
00:06:24  well it's kind of an obvious joke, so obvious that it took me quite a lot of effort to make myself write it.
00:06:38  oh
00:06:42  or in what sense?
00:06:53  i used to see that youtube comment like daily
00:07:10  wait Sgeo is still going to date ktat?
00:07:11  CAN YOU LOOK UP MEM
00:07:11  LOL
00:07:52  why wouldn't he date ktat?
00:08:08  oklopol: she believes vitamin c causes cancer, and that chemotherapy is essentially vitamin c
00:08:14  elliott, cures
00:08:17  oops
00:08:22  oklopol: (and is a cancer survivor herself, cured by chemotherapy, not vitamin c)
00:08:28  oh wait i forgot, they're the same thing
00:08:31  because radiation is a vitamin
00:09:01  I think [hope] she knows radiation isn't a vitamin
00:09:13  Sgeo: then how is chemotherapy vitamin c
00:09:22  elliott: everyone laughed at einstein when he told the world center of physics that the earth is actually the center of time but look what happened
00:09:31  oklopol: marry me
00:09:39  Chemotherapy != radiation
00:09:48  Sgeo: i am aware, how's chemotherapy vitamin c
00:10:04  She mentioned some documentary...
00:10:25 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:10:25  chemotherapy != radiation? i thought that was the essential part
00:10:27  yeah but you see the thing is chemotherapy has nothing to do with vitamin c
00:10:30 -!- sshc has joined.
00:10:30  just saying
00:10:37  kinda important fact
00:11:04  ALSO WHO CARES WHAT A GIRL THINKS AS LONG AS THERE'S PROSPECT OF SEX
00:11:32  that needed to be said i think
00:11:51  oklopol: but Sgeo has said he's not sure he'd like sex before! all he wants is opinions on vitamin c
00:11:54  and boy, these opinions are low-quality
00:12:15  i knew this guy who said he didn't like sex, masturbation was better
00:12:33  elliott, how do you have such a good memory?
00:12:38  oklopol, Mike?/
00:12:47  Sgeo: because i remember things that are really strange, and you're fucking weird.
00:12:50  Sgeo: a guy i went to high school with
00:12:52  *that are strange
00:13:27  elliott: do you remember something i've said?
00:13:37  dog food
00:13:44  oh eating that
00:14:04  was it nice
00:14:05  i've certainly dabbled in dogging
00:14:15  eating doggy style
00:14:38  I am here now. I was away before sorry someone tried to call me
00:15:12  dunno if it's nice or bad, but it's certainly different from human food
00:15:24  zzo38: why don't you want a funeral
00:15:25  and i've only tried the dry stuff
00:15:28  there will be people with a serious fetish for behaving like a pet dog and eating dog food out of a bowl
00:15:46  http://sexylosers.com/053.html [NSFW NSFW NSFW]
00:15:49  I want to funeral for me and no bury me. The funeral and these things is cost money and I do not like it.
00:15:50  wouldn't be surprising if it's called dogging too
00:16:17  ^^relevant to what oklopol said about that guy
00:16:26  You can make my body to use, such as making wig by the hair, making writing by the blood (perhaps some lie about how I died?), and the rest of the body for eating??
00:16:41  zzo38: how about sex?
00:16:45  if eating is okay
00:17:09 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:17:13  oklopol: No sex. (Of course I am dead and I will therefore not stop you, but surely sex of the dead is doesn't even make sense??)
00:17:14 -!- sshc has joined.
00:17:20  Necrophilia is real.
00:17:29  It happens :P
00:17:52  necrophilia with a man would obviously have the dead guy as a bottom
00:18:07  at least i assume so
00:18:09  lol
00:18:13  "well come on then"
00:18:15  "I'M WAITING"
00:18:21  i don't know since i'm a completely straight necrophiliac
00:18:24  I would assume it goes all ways
00:18:58  gay necro is just weeeeird
00:19:06  The more time you waste with sex from dead, the body will be rotten and then it will be no good for anything whatsoever (except, perhaps, source of carbon).
00:19:06  just... always assume some people are weirder than you thought possible
00:19:34  i mean come on, who wants to see two guys kiss each other and one is dead, two girls (one being dead), sure, everyone likes that but two guys.. (and one is dead) that's just sick
00:19:55  never leave us oklopol
00:20:03  necrophilic cannibals finish quick so they can have fresher meat
00:20:07  You have to eat right away while it is still on the line of live and dead. But you also have to pull your hair, not only so you can see who is strong enough to pull the hair, but also so that you can make wig.
00:20:12  zzo38: it will have been good for the sex, at least you can have sex multiple times, you can only eat a body once
00:20:20  although i guess you'll get a lot of meat from one body
00:20:32  oklopol: But you cannot make proper sex with the dead!
00:20:47  You can if they're still warm!
00:20:54  zzo38: why?
00:20:59  (Of course, it is possible to be bald when dead, and then you will have no hair to pull)
00:21:13  meat should be cured for better taste though, I would assume this goes for humans too
00:21:48  olsner: No! I disallowed you to sell human meats in the store!
00:22:18  heh, are you drunk?
00:22:25  why couldn't you have sex with someone who's dead, zzo38?
00:22:29  No. Are you drunk?
00:22:38  Nope.
00:22:38  why couldn't you have sex with someone who's dead, zzo38?
00:22:39  do you just mean because it's gross, or like some physical reason
00:22:47  oklopol: Because it is not proper sex.
00:23:06  I wouldn't expect it to work so well or proper.
00:23:08  what about sex with someone who's unconscious?
00:23:20  zzo38: how is it not proper?
00:23:20  oklopol: yuck! that's just weird
00:23:35  oklopol: In that case, they are still live, and they didn't tell you consent, so you should not do that either.
00:23:43  (But for different reason)
00:23:45  erm
00:24:04  you can consent to unconscious sex just as you can for post-mortem sex
00:24:08 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:24:14 -!- sshc has joined.
00:24:21  how do you know they "didn't tell you consent"? and we're not talking about whether you should do it, but whether it'd be proper sex
00:24:35  olsner: well except that you're going to wake up if you're unconscious... and are also still a sentient being
00:24:35  olsner: i think legally you can't consent to post-mortem sex
00:24:40  Is it possible to write a note from blood of the recently deceased, about how they died?
00:24:44  but legally, you can consent to unconscious sex, prolly
00:24:49  olsner: so post-mortem is a bit different
00:24:55  zzo38: "I died getting the blood to write this note"
00:24:58  oklopol: Well, I guess if they told you consent ahead of time for unconscious sex, it is different.
00:25:04  zzo38: so why can sex with a dead person not be proper?
00:25:33  zzo38: we don't care about the consent part... or is sex somehow different depending on whether it's immoral or not?
00:25:34  elliott: Because sex must involve two people and their body of sex is not function properly once dead, therefore it is improper.
00:25:44  oh
00:25:48  improper as in "wrong"?
00:25:49  zzo38: how does it not function properly, like, how does that stop sex being proper?
00:25:50  or what
00:25:59  not sure about the legalities, of course, but if someone decides their burial should involve sex shouldn't that be exactly like deciding you want to be cremated?
00:26:03  zzo38: as in -- what parts of the body are (1) required for sex to be proper and (2) not functioning past death?
00:26:23  olsner: ashes to ashes... dust to dust... genitalia to genitalia...
00:26:24  elliott: I don't know, I am not a doctor. Nor do I know about sex. Maybe you should ask a sex doctor.
00:26:35  olsner: unless it's just plain illegal to fuck a dead body
00:26:35  zzo38: then i don't see how you can say post-mortem sex is not proper
00:26:43  well
00:26:57  elliott: Of course I can say whatever I want, it doesn't make it necessarily true!
00:26:57  i suppose this gets a bit fine-grained, maybe you can still make the contract legally or something
00:27:04  zzo38: well that's a bit silly
00:27:13  oklopol: you can't make a contract saying someone can murder you
00:27:14  I think burning a dead body is illegal too, except when part of the procedures
00:27:16  i think it's probably similar
00:27:39  i imagine most necrophiliacs wouldn't actually fuck a dead guy
00:27:41  for, you know, safety reasons
00:27:43  what if you hump the body so fast the friction creates spontaneous combustion
00:27:50  does that count as cremation
00:28:04  wouldn't that also cause self-immolation?
00:28:06  elliott: fucking a fresh body doesn't sound very dangerous tho
00:28:16  not if you're wearing an asbestos condom
00:28:26  and besides, we're not even debating that aspect really :D
00:28:27  oklopol: well it'd be a bit cold still
00:28:38  muscles frozen up and stuff
00:28:49  i dunno it still sounds unsanitary :D
00:29:00  not really
00:29:15  asses are full of shit and still we stick our dicks in them without protection
00:29:28  Food Matters
00:29:34  That's the name of the bullshit that she saw
00:30:23  also i think the coldness would just be really hot if your fantasy is to fuck a dead body
00:30:50  i've tried a cold fleshlight for instance and that works fine
00:31:07  You probably will not die by writing a note from your own blood if it is one small part. But if you played mahjong with blood and your opponent won everything and they must remove all of your blood from one small hole in your arm (which is sterilized too), then it is different.
00:31:10  not for that purpose tho :D
00:31:25  oklopol: chilled with ice?
00:31:26 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:31:29  zzo38: you say weird things
00:31:32 -!- sshc has joined.
00:31:35  oklopol: also, sane people don't stick their dicks in asses without protection :P
00:31:39  elliott: a dead body would be room temperature, wouldn't it
00:32:01  Sgeo: doesn't even have a wp page
00:32:02  with time, a dead body will approach ambient temperature
00:32:03  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1528734/
00:32:05  not in uncharted asses, no
00:32:10  but asses in general
00:32:32   You probably will not die by writing a note from your own blood if it is one small part. But if you played mahjong with blood and your opponent won everything and they must remove all of your blood from one small hole in your arm (which is sterilized too), then it is different.
00:32:33  what :D
00:32:38  http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Food+Matters%22
00:32:57  elliott: Can you play mahjong? Can you read Akagi manga book?
00:33:07 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:33:08  no. it is physically impossible for me to read Akagi
00:33:10  i would combust.
00:33:27  and the probabilities of catching std's are highly overestimated to scare young ppl into being safer, i've had unprotected sex with non-regular gf at least 4 times and i've caught only one std
00:33:28  elliott: Why would you?
00:33:32  magic
00:33:33 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:33:33  what if he/she dies during the act? that wouldn't be so unsanitary. i mean it's not like 50 milliseconds after death the corpse becomes a juicy tender sack of disease, riddled with bugs. it's not an old apple that's been in tupperware on the back of your car in the sun for too long
00:33:43  oklopol: i have no words :D
00:33:49  These books are real books they are not magic.
00:34:02  19:36 < oklopol> and the probabilities of catching std's are highly overestimated to scare young ppl into being safer, i've had  unprotected sex with non-regular gf at least 4 times and i've caught only one std
00:34:04  Holy fuck
00:34:06  this is not reassuring
00:34:09  Just saw the trailer
00:34:14  I have *all* of the Akagi books, including the special edition.
00:34:17  coppro: it was a joke
00:34:22  unless you missed that
00:34:30  But the series is still on-going.
00:34:30  wow 0.999... = 1 discussion in #haskell
00:34:31  lame
00:34:35  oklopol: but i already quoted it to everyone...
00:34:36  (it's true, sure)
00:34:43  (but it was a joke)
00:34:57  j-invariant: TROLL TIME
00:35:06  oklopol: IS IT TRUE OR NOT
00:35:24  yes
00:35:30  i've caught an std
00:35:57  i think. it was kinda unclear, they told me i MUST HAVE CAUGHT IT, and that they'd call me when it's confirmed, gave me the treatment and sent me away
00:36:01  but didn't call me
00:36:17  so i suppose i didn't have it, or i had such a strong strain that they figured i'll just die anyway
00:37:41  or i suppose it's more likely that they were actually never going to call in the first place and i just misunderstood
00:37:44  i never listen to ppl
00:38:12  zzo38: here?
00:38:25 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:38:26  Even in D&D game, my character had blue blood so I cut myself to use it to cover a potion to disguise its colors, so someone else doesn't know what color it is.
00:38:30 -!- sshc has joined.
00:38:31  oklopol: here?
00:38:37  i'm here!
00:38:41  but are you here?
00:38:47  oklopol: Yes.
00:38:50  okay
00:38:52  oklopol: they took a sample of your blood but there were no blood cells in there, only cancer cells infested by HIV
00:38:59  zzo38: Are you not here?
00:39:07  zzo38: you unignored cheater00 right?
00:39:10  elliott: I am not in your house.
00:39:18  oklopol: Yes I did.
00:39:19  zzo38: Are you not not here?
00:39:27  zzo38: :D
00:39:32  elliott: Not not where, to be specific?
00:39:39  zzo38: Not not there.
00:40:08  cheater00: i've decided my body is naturally resistant to all forms of cancer
00:40:25  (I only ignored cheater00 for a short time, and even if I did not remove the ignore it is not persistent across sessions unless I put it in the init file for the IRC client)
00:40:28  oklopol: you're an Oklopol Realdoll
00:40:29  because people are all gay about how dangerous it is, i've decided to take the higher road
00:40:52  oklopol: aka mr. floppy
00:41:02  or how-ever-the-hell-you-call-it
00:41:05  elliott: now they're using inconsistent theories
00:41:10  elliott: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
00:41:21  j-invariant: the 0.999 vs 1 thing?
00:41:29  brb, need to say bye to my friends who're off on a trip
00:41:30  bbs
00:42:02  yeah say bye to your friend's whore
00:42:56  can someone copy and paste the interesting bits of the convo somewhee
00:42:57  *where
00:43:01  j-invariant: cale doesn't believe in an objective universe
00:43:10  is Cale the one who's being stupid?
00:43:18  i thought he's like the smartest guy on ever
00:43:31  no he isn't being stupid apart from that
00:43:47  elliott: Well I am not sure what it means, I'm interested
00:44:01  Which IRC clients do and do not persist ignores (and/or other things) across sessions?
00:44:13  xchat persists it
00:44:48  elliott: Does xchat have a init file?
00:44:51  i don't know what a session is
00:44:56  sounds like a pretty useless concept
00:44:57  no
00:45:00  oklopol: indeed
00:45:27  oklopol: What I mean by a session is when the program is loaded and then closed. Next time you run the program is the next session, memory from the previous session is gone.
00:45:33 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:45:39 -!- sshc has joined.
00:45:53  oh alright
00:46:11  oklopol: Call it something else if you want to.
00:46:35  no sensible program ever had that concept, when you close a program and reopen it, obviously you start in the same state
00:47:03  oklopol: No, many program do not start automatically from where you left off.
00:47:18  zzo38: they are retarded programs and can be ignored for the purposes of this argument
00:47:33  studying the empty set is much easier and purer
00:47:38  oklopol: in @, it's impossible to write a program that obeys differently when you close it!
00:47:39  well
00:47:40  (TeX will save state if you use \dump otherwise it will not do so)
00:47:43  you could hook into disk save/disk load
00:47:50  but that doesn't correspond to start/stop using necessarily at all
00:49:00  the only way a program can tell it has been closed and reopened is that the system clock suddenly jumps
00:49:22  why would someone associate with this event the emptying of all state
00:49:47  oklopol: I suppose if that is the way, you can make it if you do not want to save state, instead delete it when you close and create a new copy with a nwe session ID and everything when you start back up.
00:50:08  The program does not need to be able to tell when it has been closed or not, because you can set state by user setting instead of by program setting.
00:50:21  let me try to work my way through what you just said
00:50:24  It would also be useful to have multiple sessions, sometimes, such as working on multiple things.
00:50:31  oklopol all mobs are invisible for me how amazing is that
00:50:42  "delete it when you close"
00:51:09  elliott: that's the way it should be, even scarier than as is
00:51:47  oklopol: :D
00:52:05  What I mean is delete the copy of the session, and then you can create a new session from the copy of the initial program.
00:52:41 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:52:49  " It would also be useful to have multiple sessions, sometimes, such as working on multiple things." <<< that is actually very true
00:53:02  but i'm not sure starting and closing programs is the way to do that
00:53:22  Which is why the session should be separate from the program itself, even if sessions are allowed to persist.
00:53:32  elliott: why are they invisible?
00:53:38  zzo38: yeah
00:53:57  oklopol: some bug
00:54:08  elliott: that actually sounds so scary
00:54:20  you'd just occasionally hear the sound of something
00:54:31  And then, perhaps, allow you to copy a session.
00:54:36  oklopol: i'm muted
00:54:36  and oh god, where is it
00:54:43  oklopol: so actually, i just started losing damage
00:54:44  and being pushed
00:54:48  and tried to run away but couldnt
00:54:49  *couldn't
00:54:50  :D
00:54:52  because i didn't know where it was
00:54:53  that's so cool
00:54:54  and it killed me
00:55:00  haha
00:55:02  ghosts
00:55:17  oklopol: it should play monster sounds completely uncorrelated with actual monsters
00:55:18  there should be a game based on that
00:55:26  hear a spider, nothing's there, but you walk a bit, and there's a zombie, totally silent, start losing health
00:55:30  fight it like a spider
00:55:31  die horribly
00:55:48  I have some games with some things invisible.
00:56:03  Including I modified the ROM for Super Mario game to make Mario to be invisible, too.
00:56:04  what kind of games?
00:56:16  mario being invisible would be just annoying
00:56:23  And also one pinball game with the ball is invisible.
00:56:23  as would mario enemies being invisible
00:56:23  everything should be invisible
00:56:26  apart from terrain
00:56:27  third-person
00:56:33  zzo38: also that sounds just annoying :D
00:56:36  scrolling pseudorandomly triggered so you can't deduce your position from it
00:56:43  all items, enemies, yourself, etc. are invisible and inaudible
00:56:52  that's just a game of luck isn't it
00:56:55  that pong
00:56:56  And there is invisible tetris (it is a mode in Lockjaw).
00:56:59  erm pinball
00:57:08  well in pinball you already whack the flippers madly constantly anyway
00:57:14  invisible tetris xD
00:57:14  oklopol: Pinball is not just a game of luck, invisible or not; flippers or not.
00:57:15  worst game ever
00:57:19  zzo38: yes it is
00:57:26  it's a game of
00:57:33  (1) pressing flippers when you see the ball (a monkey could do this)
00:57:33  and
00:57:34  elliott: I do not whack the flippers madly.
00:57:38  (2) hoping it doesn't go straight in the middle
00:57:42  which it does, constantly
00:57:43  and that's it
00:57:47  elliott: No, it isn't. You also bump the table.
00:57:50  i should make a game that's like totally awesome, with contemporary 3d graphics, but everything is actually rendered as a black screen without sound
00:57:51  useless
00:57:53  Especially if it is flipperless game.
00:57:54  unless it completely stops
00:57:56  in which case bump it once
00:58:01  oklopol: xD
00:58:02  I prefer flipperless pinball game.
00:58:25  so uh
00:58:27  one control?
00:58:29  no game with one control can be good
00:58:31  pretty much
00:58:32  you need two
00:58:33  exactly two
00:58:38  or infinite
00:58:38 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:58:39  just like when we were making this one game which never came to be, we decided to make this big elaborate secret area that you *actually can't access in any way*
00:58:51  elliott: Well, you have multiple controls. You can bump it in many different directions, and you can control the plunger.
00:58:59  oklopol: stfu
00:59:03  oklopol: what game
00:59:07 * cheater00 blends oklopol
00:59:08  elliott: ulimon!
00:59:13  :D
00:59:15  oklopol: also, there was one of those in some nintendo or something game
00:59:16  :DD
00:59:19  oklopol: contest winner got a special room
00:59:27  oklopol: except that it was only in the american version
00:59:28  pokemon but with ulis... although it didn't have much to do with pokemon
00:59:32  oklopol: and the american localisers removed the door
00:59:36  so it was impossible to get to
00:59:42  lol
00:59:50  oh hey elliott
00:59:56  have you ever read up on hyperreal numberz
00:59:59  In a real flipperless pinball game (without computer), you can bump in any direction you want and with different amounts of force.
01:00:18  pinball is rubbish
01:00:24  oklopol: so how goes oklocraft
01:00:30  elliott: guess!
01:00:36  oklopol: almost developed?
01:00:42  elliott: Probably because you do not understand the strategy for playing the game.
01:00:50  there is a strategy?
01:01:00  oklopol: For pinball game, yes.
01:01:03  zzo38: no, no, you see, my opinion is that it's rubbish
01:01:08  after a few bumps, the movement of the ball is random
01:01:26  and it usually bumps like 30 times before falling
01:01:48  oklopol: Timing is important. You cannot just bump it at randomly, you will almost certainly lose that way.
01:02:01  if the flippers extended to the middle
01:02:04  anyone could beat the world record for pinball
01:02:09  in some pinballs there's some sort of plot like you have to hit a certain thing and then another thing etc, so you have aim those couple of first bumps right
01:02:09  easily
01:02:26  except not because the ball could still fall between flippers in an unlucky situation!
01:02:32  You also have to pay attention to all of the lights and everything, and order of targets if it is important, the velocity of the ball, and more.
01:02:35  and then someone who's extremely unlucky will always keep on doing that
01:02:46  zzo38: you call aiming the first bump of the ball to be somewhere that gives a high amount of points "strategy"?
01:03:02  cheater00: What is the elasticity of the flippers?
01:03:12  oklopol: No, that is only a small part of the game.
01:03:21  You have to think about the entire game which is a lot more than just that.
01:03:48  but you do realize when you hit the ball, it hits the first couple things as you like, and then it just jumps around randomly
01:03:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
01:03:49  The elasticity of the various objects in the table is very important.
01:04:05  unless you make very precise hits that come back right away, is that the way pros play it?
01:04:08  zzo38: speaking of elasticity.. i should play some gish
01:04:12  gish!
01:04:14  <4
01:04:20  hahah
01:04:25  have you been playing it again?
01:04:29  oklopol: Yes it does do that sometimes, which is why you have to make precision and timing, and to think of how to recover from some things.
01:04:31  yeah no pinball is boring and unstrategic
01:04:35  not in ages
01:04:45 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:04:51  "yes it does do that sometimes"
01:04:52  do what?
01:05:23  oklopol: Moves in the different way than expected.
01:05:29  whenever you let the ball jump more then 2 times, you certainly can't predict *at all* what it's going to do
01:05:49  That is what makes pinball a good game, you can do like that.
01:05:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:05:54  oklopol: you can in (good) real pinballs
01:06:13  not like the pinball that came with windows nt 4
01:06:14  i find that hard to believe
01:06:24  in start > programs > accessories
01:06:25  :D
01:06:31  but okay maybe like 4
01:06:31  oklopol: Which is why you might attempt to hit certain targets in order to turn on and off lights in order to improve the advantage that you might get with the ball moving different way.
01:07:19  zzo38: as long as you really play the game in such a way that the ball returns down at least say every 3 bumps, i believe you're actually controlling the game.
01:07:34  and not just being good at catching the drops that almost go in the middle
01:07:53  well i don't *believe* that, but at least it could theoretically be possible
01:08:15  I play a pinball game called "JiggleBox". There are bumpers and drop targets and rollover targets with lights and stuff, but near the bottom, the ball can reenter the launch area, and then there is some holes, labeled "50", "100", "0", and "game over".
01:08:53  If you get the ball in a hole you get that many points and you lose the current ball (you get nine balls per game). If you get the ball in the hole labeled "game over", the game ends immediately, you lose all of your balls to play.
01:10:05  So when the ball is up high you try generally to hit targets and lights and points, and try not to make it too fast into the lower area; when it is in the lower area, try to recover so that the ball will touch the launch area, or the "100" hole, at least.
01:10:26  when the ball is high, you can control its movement?
01:10:56  oklopol: By hitting the table so that the ball deflects off of bumpers and pins and walls and drop targets in various ways.
01:11:18  fizzie: Apparently you spawn in a random location of the first chunk in SMP. (reddit hearsay.)
01:11:21  what does hitting do?
01:12:02  i never used that because in all the pinballs i've played, it's just a small random move that is not really good for anything
01:12:02  oklopol: When you hit the table it gives force to the table in the direction you hit it, moving everything in one way for a short time.
01:12:21  does the ball's trajectory change?
01:12:46  or can you just make the ball touch an object if it was already going near it
01:13:40  oklopol: It can, a little bit, depending on friction and stuff. But usually you just make the ball touch an object that it is near, in a certain way, to increase or reduce the force with which the ball touches that object.
01:13:43  if the trajectory doesn't change, that's just silly optimization
01:14:02  oklopol: i think it's to make it bounce harder
01:14:12  And of course the force is a vector quantity, which is also important.
01:14:25  well in that case the trajectory certainly does change
01:14:37  zzo38: what?
01:14:53  anyway you're not really convinving me at all
01:14:54  elliott: Yes, to make it bounce harder or in a different direction. (Or, sometimes less hard)
01:15:07  yeah these are not good arguments
01:15:30  you're not really telling me anything i didn't know
01:15:48  well, i suppose it's hard to prove something that's not true
01:15:51  :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:16:03  Pinball is all based on physics.
01:16:16  what
01:16:22  so is solitaire
01:16:25  you put the cards on top of each other
01:16:28  that's physcs
01:16:29  *physics
01:16:33  elliott: No, that doesn't count.
01:16:39  also chess, how do you think those pieces stay on the board
01:16:41  FRICTION bitches
01:16:59  zzo38: it's based on physics, point is there's so little control the movement of the ball is essentially random
01:17:09  elliott: Of course the games work because of physics, but chess is not a game of physics.
01:17:57  oklopol: It isn't. I know because I play pinball a lot and the control you have can improve the game a lot, even though there are many random movements of the ball.
01:18:32  i can't seem to find youtube vids of people being good a pinball
01:18:36  might convince me a bit
01:19:11 -!- azaq23 has left (?).
01:19:37  See a picture of the pinball game  http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png
01:20:01  i don't like pinball, it's bad
01:20:06  i agree with oklopol
01:20:08  give us youtube videos
01:20:10  of good pinballing
01:21:30  Hmm
01:21:55  I think she might not think that chemo is literally vit. C, just that it has the same effect as far as destroying cancer is conc.. wait, no
01:22:08  i assume people can become really awesome in these games, but i still think 1) it's mostly about very rough estimates of how to stay safe, and never failing when it's possible to catch the ball 2) a casual player will never reach anything above randomness
01:23:02  oklopol: You are probably correct
01:23:47  hey oklopol you're good at x86-64 asm right
01:23:49  also, it's possible the pro way is indeed to either 1) actually control the ball by hitting 2) make short between-control runs by hitting in places so that the ball just falls back
01:24:02  Sgeo: wait no why
01:24:03  elliott: i've read a book about it, i don't remember any of the actual operations though
01:24:05  *why "wait no"
01:24:06  :D
01:24:10  oklopol: right, so you get to write @'s kernel
01:24:32  if either of 1 or 2 is used, i believe the game can become non-random
01:24:39  I asked her how there could be different types of chemo, and she said different doses
01:25:12  oklopol: You can also use a combination of those techniques.
01:25:13  isn't chemo = injecting some shit for fun + radiation
01:26:30  zzo38: so like, do you actually decide "okay, i'm going to hit that target, and then let the ball go to that other target there, then come back", or do you go "okay ima hit there", and then when it hits those two targets you go like yay i hit exactly what i wanted!
01:26:42  i do the latter
01:26:51  and i've played a lot of pinball
01:27:17  of course, only the windows pinball, so maybe there is essential difference in amount of control, but anyway.
01:27:42  in windows pinball, you always choose like a mission by hitting these targets
01:27:50  oklopol: It is selected based on a few factors, such as the current velocity of the ball and the probability of certain things working.
01:27:52  and then based on that mission, you have to hit certain kinds of targets
01:28:21  and that was all very random
01:28:43  like "put numbers in this prng and try to get 3452 to appear in the first 30 digits!" random
01:28:44  zzo38: so can you give us a youtube thing
01:28:57  elliott: I have no YouTube things.
01:29:12  well get one, to show us pinball
01:29:23   like "put numbers in this prng and try to get 3452 to appear in the first 30 digits!" random
01:29:25  i would play that
01:29:27  if there are no youtube videos of pinballing, then it's pretty obvious no one has ever become good at pinball
01:29:56  there's a video where this guy picks a whole glass of snot from his nose in one minute
01:30:04  so pinball shouldn't really be excluded
01:30:09  that was a lie
01:30:16 -!- TLUL has joined.
01:30:19  thanks i can taste snot now
01:30:36  once me and a friend tested whether you can drink coke through your nose and i drink a whole glass
01:30:46  *drank
01:30:47  oklopol: I have played the Windows pinball. The up arrow is a dumb key for forward bump, so you can change it to spacebar (and set the plunger key to enter). But if you hold down the bump key for more than a small fraction of a second it goes on tilt, so release the keys very quickly after pushing them.
01:31:05  yeah tilt is kinda stupid
01:31:36  either make hitting an essential part of the game mechanics and make like a bar that shows how much you have left to use or something, or just leave it out...
01:31:56  Tilt penalty is found less often on flipperless games than on flippered games.
01:32:12  ?
01:32:18  well right, because it's copied from irl machines
01:32:29  Hitting *is* an essential part of the game.
01:32:46  but the penalty is done completely wrong
01:32:46  oklopol: did it burn your nose
01:32:52  Many flipperless games do not detect tilt.
01:33:06  it's copied from irl games where the system WAS MADE SO THAT NO ONE COULD HIT THE BOARD EVER
01:33:13  i don't get the tilt penalty, yeah
01:33:13  it's like
01:33:15  STOP THAT
01:33:18  in real life does it beep
01:33:19  and punch you
01:33:21  if you tilt it too hard
01:34:12  elliott: It won't punch you, but some games will reboot if you tilt it too hard.
01:35:02  i suppose the point of tilt penalty is exactly that hitting makes the game less random, and you generally want your games to be random if people are paying to play them
01:35:11  because otherwise good players can play longer
01:35:16  and you want everyone to play for a short time
01:37:35  but yeah, why not take hitting - a misfeature provided by reality in the irl pinballs - and then also add tilt penalty - a misfeature provided by the fact games are not actually made to be interesting, but to make money - to your computer game
01:37:48  what the fuck is wrong with these people
01:38:11  i don't really care
01:43:58 -!- drakhan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:44:28  Do you know if you will be able to help to write user-documentation/tutorials for TeXnicard?
01:49:47  i know *i* can't, if that helps!
01:49:49  elliott: no
01:49:57  it was just weird
01:50:04 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
01:50:13  and i fell on some crap earlier today and now my pants are all smelly
01:50:17  oklopol: no what
01:50:31  elliott: well you know that question you once asked
01:50:41  oklopol: You can't? Do you know why you can't?
01:50:47  oklopol: oh the dog food right
01:50:53  elliott: no
01:51:00  elliott: one of the other ones
01:51:01  then what
01:51:07  hmm
01:51:07  which
01:51:12  hey pikhq
01:51:13  let me copy it for you
01:51:21  since you seem to be a bit short on the brain today.
01:51:21  *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> x)))
01:51:21  eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> v0))))
01:51:45  " oklopol: did it burn your nose"
01:51:48  oh
01:51:58  coke burns my nose
01:52:12  did you try
01:52:20  no, but i've had it come out of my nose
01:52:21  that burns
01:52:26  j-invariant: i wrote the most lovely lambda calculus in haskell just now
01:52:32  realy
01:52:38  WAT
01:52:43  01:54 < elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> x)))
01:52:43  01:54 < elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> v0))))
01:52:46  fail
01:52:53  j-invariant: howso
01:52:55  alpha evaluation LOL
01:52:59  j-invariant: nope
01:53:00  not how it works
01:53:00  im just being silly
01:53:02 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:53:20  j-invariant: i based it on http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/?p=95 which you've probably seen
01:53:23  seems to be down
01:53:24  cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:joFRT78UzLkJ:sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/%3Fp%3D95+http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/%3Fp%3D95&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
01:53:33  j-invariant: but, i used HOAS instead of de bruijn
01:53:43  j-invariant: and now the evaluator and the quoter are crazy bidirectional!
01:54:03  j-invariant: http://sprunge.us/ZEeS
01:54:16  j-invariant: obviously if you just want an evaluator, you can ditch Var, SVar, showSyn and the Show instances
01:54:18  cool
01:54:19  and even nf
01:54:30  which makes it literally just... 7 lines
01:54:35  (i counted)
01:54:42  data Syn = Lam (Syn -> Syn) | App Syn Syn
01:54:42  I think I found what report DVItype is part of (which is why it starts on page 402 instead of page 1), it is TeXware, it is listed in the bibliography for TeX. But there is no ISBN?
01:54:45  data Sem = Sem (Sem -> Sem)
01:54:46 -!- variable has joined.
01:54:48  eval :: Syn -> Sem
01:54:53  eval (Lam f) = Sem (\x -> eval (f (quote x)))
01:54:55  eval (App f x) = f' (eval x) where Sem f' = eval f
01:54:59  quote :: Sem -> Syn
01:54:59  quote (Sem f) = Lam (\x -> quote (f (eval x)))
01:55:01  j-invariant: that's all you need
01:55:10  hey those functions are eval . f . quote
01:55:12  and quote . f . eval :DD
01:55:17  very nice
01:56:03  *Main> nf (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
01:56:03  (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> *** Exception: /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Main.Sem f'
01:56:04  oops
01:56:06  i'll fix that
01:56:10  but it'll get uglier
01:56:37  i don't understand http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png
01:56:41                   /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed
01:56:41  where are the flippers floppers
01:56:44                   for pattern Main.Sem f'
01:56:47  j-invariant: yeah
01:56:48  DONT USE TYPES HE SAID, IT WILL BE OKAY HE SAID.
01:56:52  :DD
01:56:53  oklopol: That is a flipperless game, there are no flippers.
01:57:03  j-invariant: basically the problem is, (App (SVar i) ...) doesn't work
01:57:07  :P
01:57:08  and i'm not sure how to fix that without it being horrible
01:57:12  any ideas?
01:57:15  zzo38: oh? just hitting or?
01:57:32  or no control at all? :D
01:57:35  that'd be cool
01:57:40  oklopol: Yes, just hitting. (Actually there is one more thing you can control -- the launch strength.)
01:58:08  The computer allows hitting in five directions.
01:58:09  so... that's fortuna, not pinball?
01:58:22  What is fortuna?
01:58:23  even more pointless a game
01:59:18  my internet is not flowing so i can't check if the name is international or just the name of a particular type of that game no one knows outside my apartment
01:59:19  JiggleBox is a pinball game, just without flippers. If you are good at it you might be able to hit all of the drop targets twice per game.
01:59:47  erm, pinball games last for like 15 minutes before ball drops out..
02:00:02  it's mostly a game of stamina...
02:00:05  j-invariant: oh i know...
02:00:14  j-invariant: if i just implement an evaluator that works on pure Syn it would work :D
02:00:15  uglyyy
02:00:22  oklopol: If you are good at it you can make it last longer.
02:00:50  j-invariant: or actually, I could put Add in Sem, but that is ugly!
02:01:01  02:02 < Mahcaut> ⓘⓢ ⓘⓣ ⓣⓡⓤⓔ ⓣⓗⓐⓣ ⓘⓝⓣ ⓢⓘⓝ(ⓧ) ⓘⓝⓕ ❸.1❹
02:01:05  02:02 < Mahcaut> ⓞⓞⓟⓢ
02:01:10  j-invariant: ...xDDDD
02:01:14  longer than 15 minutes? sure, that was just an indication of what kind of game pinball is, since "you might be able to hit all of the drop targets twice per game" sounded a bit less
02:01:16  than 15 minutes
02:01:19  is that #math
02:01:57  oklopol: Yes it does usually last less than 15 minutes. But sometimes it will go on longer.
02:02:15  (Also, the drop targets are not the entire game; mostly you hit the other things.)
02:02:23  and if you don't hit at all, it just falls down or?
02:02:35  or jumps around just as long
02:02:38  just as randomly
02:03:01  oklopol: The ball might just fall down, but it might also jump around. Usually it will jump around for a while and then fall down before you have many points.
02:03:15  j-invariant:
02:03:17  *Main> (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:03:17  (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> (App (App v0 v1) v2)))))))
02:03:17  *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:03:17  eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> *** Exception: /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Main.Fun f'
02:03:21  j-invariant: yep, my Sem is insufficient
02:03:27  (i.e. quote isn't total)
02:04:31  If you are not good at the game, you will probably fail to hit all of the drop targets even once.
02:05:05  *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:05:05  eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> (App (App v0 v1) v2)))))))
02:05:06  \o/
02:05:06    |
02:05:06   /'\
02:05:50  *Main> eval (App (Lam (\x -> x)) (Lam (\x -> x)))
02:05:50  eval (Lam (\v0 -> v0))
02:05:53  j-invariant: it works, how amazing is that
02:05:57  31 lines
02:06:10  7-lines extended with full printing functionality that actually works as Show
02:06:14  i.e. the result is valid Haskell
02:06:14  :D
02:06:19  (with the same result always)
02:06:42  02:08 < gnee> lol 50% IS math
02:06:42  02:09 < joo> It's like undone math cake.
02:06:42  02:09 < gnee> lol
02:06:42  02:09 < Mahcaut> ⓘⓢ ⓘⓣ ⓣⓡⓤⓔ ⓣⓗⓐⓣ ʃ ⓢⓘⓝ(ⓧ/ⓨ) ∝ ξ
02:06:45  ...
02:09:19  j-invariant: what the fuck is this xD
02:09:47   ok i need a tip
02:09:47   how do you get the limits of factorials
02:09:47   ?
02:10:11  >:)
02:10:32  j-invariant: is it bad if my Sem type contains things that could be evaluated further?
02:10:38  in my defence, my functions never produce such values
02:11:38  j-invariant: i'm asking for, like, spiritual guidance here
02:12:15  it is bad
02:12:41  j-invariant: but i need it to do proper showing! :P
02:12:57  j-invariant: the only other way is to have an extra type with its own evaluator for no real reason...
02:13:10  j-invariant: basically, you could say (SApp (Fun ...) ...), even though that should never happen
02:13:12  it's really for
02:13:17  (SApp (SVar 42) ...)
02:13:18  and the like
02:13:19  elliott: whta is it trying to do?
02:13:54  j-invariant: http://sprunge.us/dCVK
02:14:08  j-invariant: Var, SApp, and SVar exist solely to support showing
02:14:13  j-invariant: but the only problematic one is SApp
02:14:27  in that you can construct (SApp (Fun ...) ...), which should be reduced to ((...) ...)
02:14:38  no function there ever constructs that
02:14:40  but you can manually
02:14:57  elliott: Sem shouldn't be the same as Syn
02:15:08  j-invariant: well it isn't
02:15:10  it just grew into that
02:15:12  for this one special case
02:15:15  it is _not_ a mirror
02:15:19  SApp is used differently to App
02:15:25  how do you suggest I do this?
02:15:40  do what?
02:15:44  this
02:15:45  :P
02:15:53  but I don't know what the goal is
02:16:07  j-invariant:
02:16:12  data Syn = Lam (Syn -> Syn) | App Syn Syn
02:16:12  data Sem = Fun (Sem -> Sem)
02:16:12  eval :: Syn -> Sem
02:16:12  eval (Lam f) = Fun (eval . f . quote)
02:16:12  eval (App f x) = f' (eval x) where Fun f' = eval f
02:16:13  quote :: Sem -> Syn
02:16:15  quote (Fun f) = Lam (quote . f . eval)
02:16:22  extend Syn and preferably Sem to have a Show instance
02:16:29  in the most elegant, clean and short way possible
02:16:37  wait how you can quote that Sem
02:16:42  I tohught you have to have a variable thing in there
02:16:48  j-invariant: HOA
02:16:49  *HOAS
02:17:04  j-invariant: it's beautiful :D
02:17:14  i love how the Lam and Fun cases are mirrors of each other
02:20:51  j-invariant: any ideas on how to extend it?
02:21:08  ext,md
02:21:11  extend to what/?
02:21:29   extend Syn and preferably Sem to have a Show instance
02:21:29   in the most elegant, clean and short way possible
02:21:44  well you need a syntax without lambda in is
02:21:45  in it
02:21:54  j-invariant: eh?
02:22:00  j-invariant: it works fine with those, you just pass a gensym
02:22:01  pretty much
02:22:10  like SYN = Lam Name SYN | ...
02:22:23  j-invariant: yeah but isn't that the same as basically passing a gensym
02:22:31  i guess it's because you can't really evaluate (f x) where f is a free variable
02:22:36  j-invariant: ok so do you suggest i make this a third type?
02:22:42  Syn, Sem, NameSyn?
02:23:09  elliott: well maybe it is the same as GENSYM, but what I mean is that the lambda in Syn is completely cosmetic. Whereas the lambda in Sem is actually essential
02:23:24  http://imgur.com/a/dhld6
02:23:24  http://imgur.com/a/dhld6
02:23:25  http://imgur.com/a/dhld6
02:23:57  right
02:24:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Fortytwo).
02:24:40  hmm what should i call the new type :D
02:24:43  NamedSyn is so ugly
02:25:23  elliott: TrueType
02:27:35  j-invariant: i can't write Syn -> Named
02:27:39  because i'd have to pass a gensym
02:27:58  j-invariant: I don't think there is *any* way of doing this without introducing a dummy Var type into Syn
02:28:03  which then requires a brother in Sem
02:30:25  :S
02:30:26  lol http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65201 stole my fucking name
02:30:41  j-invariant: yeah i'm lost as to how to do it...
02:30:45  this is where HOAS fails
02:30:52  elliott: HOAS is stupid :/
02:30:55  oh i know...maybe...
02:30:58  j-invariant: but really elegant for this
02:31:01  elliott: there's no fold on it
02:31:08  eh?
02:31:10  (IIRC)
02:32:00  elliott: btw, http://i.imgur.com/m4W5N.png
02:34:12  j-invariant: hey wow how did you get it rendering like that
02:34:13  that is sweet
02:34:19  elliott: LaTeX
02:34:30  elliott: which is just hte problem....
02:34:37  j-invariant: but, err, it looks like you're mixing up your polynomials and your renderings of polynomials
02:34:47  j-invariant: I would put the rendering code in another module or whatever to avoid clashing?
02:35:01  that is amazing though
02:35:09  elliott: that's the problem X)_
02:35:15  j-invariant: why can't you do that :)
02:35:33  elliott: I can do polynomials on their own, and modular arithmetic on it's own.. But how do I do polynomials with modular arithmetic coefficients?
02:35:54  basically I have to start combining LaTeX cleverly)
02:36:58  elliott: every. single. thing... I add to this program ends up being a huge hassle
02:37:11  j-invariant: ok i need to ask you
02:37:21  j-invariant: why are you representing things with their latex display?!?!??!!
02:37:28  wdhat do you mean
02:37:29  ?
02:37:33  maintain polynomials as abstract objects and then handle rendering to latex in another module
02:37:37  that seems like the only sane thing to do by far ...
02:39:25  elliott: I cna't be bothered fixing this I just wish it waws done
02:39:42  j-invariant: well it seems like your program is structured  very wrongly
02:39:44  *structured very
02:39:51  realyl? :P
02:39:56  j-invariant: it's like you've defined + on IO Ints instead of Ints
02:40:03  haha
02:40:04  i mean, why would you even do that
02:40:09  latex is a separate thing!
02:42:36  elliott: fix my program
02:42:41  :)
02:42:46  j-invariant: gimme the file :P
02:42:54  it's a whole bunch of fiels
02:42:56  also, only if you help program scapegoat
02:42:59  j-invariant: tar it up then
02:43:00  or put it in
02:43:01  a
02:43:03  scapegoat repository
02:43:12  lolj
02:43:27  step 1 of putting smoething in a scapegoat repo:  Implement scapegoat?
02:43:28  *Main> showVarred 0 (varify (Lam (\x -> x)))
02:43:28  "(\\v0 -> ((\\v1 -> ((\\v2 -> ((\\v3 -> ((\\v4 -> ((\\v5 -> ((\\v6 -> ((\\v7 -> ((\\v8 -> ((\\v9 -> ((\\v10 -> ((\\v11 -> ((\\v12 -> ((\\v13 -> ((\\v14 -> ((\\v15 -> ((\\v16 -> ((\\v17 -> ((\\v18 -> ((\\v19 -> ((\\v20 -> ((\\v21 -> ((\\v22 -> ((\\v23 -> ((\\v24 -> ((\\v25 -> ((\\v26 -> ((\\v27 -> ((\\v28 -> ((\\v29 -> ((\\v30 -> ((\\v31 -> ((\\v32 -> ((\\v33 -> ((\\v34 -> ((\\v35 -> ((\\v36 -> ((\\v37 -> ((\\v38 -> ((\\v39 -> ((\\v40 -> ((\\v41 -
02:43:28  > ((\\v42 -> ((\\v43 -> ((\\v44 -> ((\\v45 -> ((\\v46 -> ((\\v47 -> ((\\v48 -> ((\\v49 -> ((\\v50 -> ((\\v51 -> ((\\v52 -> ((\\v53 -> ((\\v54 -> ((\\v55 -> ((\\v56 -> ((\\v57 -> ((\\v58 -> ((\\v59 -> ((\\v60 -> ((\\v61 -> ((\\v62 -> ((\\v63 -> ((\\v64 -> ((\\v65 -> ((\\v66 -> ((\\v67 -> ((\\v68 -> ((\\v69 -> ((\\v70 -> ((\\v71 -> ((\\v72 -> ((\\v73 -> ((\\v74 -> ((\\v75 -> ((\\v76 -> ((\\v77 -> ((\\v78 -> ((\\v79 -> ((\\v80 -> ((\\v81 -> ((\\v82
02:43:29    : parse error on input `->'
02:43:31  -> ((\\v83 -> ((\\v84 -> ((\\v85 -> ((\\v86 -> ((\\v87 -> ((\\v88 -> ((\\v89 -> ((\\v90 -> ((\\v91 -> ((\\v92 -> ((\\v93 -> ((\\v94 -> ((\\v95 -> ((\\v96 -> ((\\v97 -> ((\\v98 -> ((\\v99 -> ((\\v100 -> ((\\v101 -> ((\\v102 -> ((\\v103 -> ((\\v104 -> ((\\v105 -> ((\\v106 -> ((\\v107 -> ((\\v108 -> ((\\v109 -> ((\\v110 -> ((\\v111 -> ((\\v112 -> ((\\v113 -> ((\\v114 -> ((\\v115 -> ((\\v116 -> ((\\v117 -> ((\\v118 -> ((\\v119 -> ((\\v120 -> ((\\v121
02:43:36   -> ((\\v122 -> ((\\v123 -> ((\\v124 -> ((\\v125 -> ((\\v126 -> ((\\v127 -> ((\\v128 -> ((\\v129 -> ((\\v130 -> ((\\v131 -> ((\\v132 -> ((\\v133 -> ((\\v134 -> ((\\v135 -> ((\\v136 -> ((\\v137 -> ((\\v138 -> ((\\v139 -> ((\\v140 -> ((\\v141 -> ((\\v142 -> ((\\v143 -> ((\\v144 -> ((\\v145 -> ((\\v146 -> ((\\v147 -> ((\\v148 -> ((\\v149 -> ((\\v150 -> ((\\v151 -> ((\\v152 -> ((\\v153 -> ((\\v154 -> ((\\v155 -> ((\\v156 -> ((\\v157 -> ((\\v158 ->
02:43:41  j-invariant: i think my code is broken
02:43:43  and yes, that's step one
02:43:44  why you shouldn't use /exec -o ^
02:43:50  that wasn't exec -o
02:43:53  that was copy and paste magic!
02:45:23  my idea didn't work :(
02:45:24  hoas is lame
02:45:25  :P
02:45:31  hehe
02:45:35  some people really love HOAS I think
02:46:22  j-invariant: it's so cool except you CAN'T FUCKING PRINT SHIT OUT
02:46:36  j-invariant: so are you totally coding scapegoat
02:47:09  sort of
02:47:20  actually you never said how it works
02:47:31  j-invariant: quite well!
02:47:36  >_>
02:48:07  My dogs got no nose
02:48:23  I feel like a pair of curtains
02:48:53  pull yourself terrible
02:55:42  elliott: A LaTeX object will render "\\sqrt{2}" for example... what should that stsring be called?
02:55:58  j-invariant: where it can be any object being rendered?
02:55:59  j-invariant: "latex"
02:56:28  (struct latex (string) ...) <-- need a better name for the string :/
02:56:31  j-invariant: seriously though... you want to make polynomial an abstract structure, now, and have one function to do latex rendering
02:56:34  so you'd do
02:56:39  (to-latex poly1)
02:56:40  i'm rewriting it now :P
02:56:42  and get that picture out
02:56:43  yay
02:56:44  j-invariant: make it
02:56:46  j-invariant: uh
02:56:49  j-invariant: call it "code"
02:56:59  j-invariant: wait, what is the rest of struct latex
02:57:00  hmm
02:57:04  actually this doesn't even work
02:57:07  j-invariant: wait, what is the rest of struct latex
02:57:24  i wanna know :)
02:58:05  elliott: it has a custom print method to render and display itself
02:58:15  j-invariant: so it has only one field?
02:58:19  yes
02:58:27  j-invariant: I suggest you ditch that model.
02:58:49  why?
02:58:50  j-invariant: Have to-latex, taking a polynomial, and outputting a LaTeX string. Then have render-latex, taking a LaTeX string, and outputting a Racket picture.
02:58:58  j-invariant: Then have render, which is just render-latex . to-latex
02:59:07  j-invariant: This will be much simpler, and you don't have to come up with variable names :-)
02:59:16  Structures with one element are a bit iffy in Scheme I would say, they feel wrong
02:59:32  Remember that you can use a single type for many semantic meanings in Scheme and derivatives
02:59:46  And if you can do things nicely with an existing type, such as strings and pictures, you should
02:59:57  j-invariant: try that model, I think it'll turn out cleanly
03:00:44  fizzie: Why did you remove the gio dependency from mcmap?
03:01:27  fizzie: Also: Can I factor out the platform-specific bits (i.e. the ifdef WIN32/else) into a win32.c and a posix.c, so that the rest of the code just calls functions? ifdef-portability really irks me.
03:03:26  ineiros: Oh, look at that; hMod isn't going to be updated.
03:03:27  Vorpal: ^
03:03:35  Stock Minecraft server until Bukkit comes out which will take months.
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06:22:33  I had to do it with raw sockets to fix the Windows build (since GIO sockets there are just too broken); since I had that in place already I realized I could just use the same code for both. Also "yes", assuming it doesn't go all messy-looking from that.
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06:47:10  Heh, so hMod won't be updated because they couldn't figure out how to do that even after being "all day" at it; everyone knows that either you can do it in a day or else it's just impossible.
06:47:52  Anyway, just because they won't doesn't mean someone else won't go through the trouble of cobbling together a build.
06:50:53  At least Bukkit is enterprisey enough to have trouble with "licensing issues" such that they need to "get in contact with Mojang to discuss what we're doing".
06:51:25  Minecraft server mods seem to be serious business.
06:55:24  Incidentally, someone's public server (the alarmingly named "FurMine") is listed as to having a beta 1.2 hMod build.
06:57:20  Also a Finnish server ("Kemicraft") says they're running 1.2_01 with their own unofficial hMod build.
07:00:34  (They also sell "VIP privileges" == access to a kit for 3/5/10 EUR -- steel/diamond/both kits -- on Kemicraft. That's enterprisey in a whole another way.)
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07:13:48  RIICHI!!!
07:14:34  rîti?
07:15:39  pikhq: Yes, same thing.
07:15:52  Care to explain the significance thereof?
07:16:14  pikhq: Mahjong.
07:16:21  Oh, *duh*.
07:17:57  Do you know how many different names the normal chess game is called by?
07:18:43 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:20:55  What can you make out from this chess position?   http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=maeko-makov333-2009-359-344
07:23:04  zzo38: Probably gets worse when you realise that chess has a freaking *family tree* going on.
07:23:16  And that each one has its own name.
07:25:40  The normal chess game is called FIDE chess, Orthochess, Orthodox chess, International chess, Western chess, and the "Mad Queen" variant.
07:26:41  And that's just in English. >:D
07:28:46  Yes, that's just in English.
07:32:23  Do you know any more that are used in English?
07:33:11  "Normal chess".
07:34:10  Yes, of course. And also "chess"
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07:40:50  What can you figure out from this chess position?
07:41:12  It is the black player's turn. What move?
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07:46:37  I can see five ways to get out of check. Can you find more?
07:51:06  Roll one of those d6's?
07:51:16  pikhq: Not allowed.
07:51:50  (You may increase one of them by one, though. But doing so would not get you out of check, anyways.)
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08:19:27  The black player is going to lose the queen.
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08:45:55   ineiros: Oh, look at that; hMod isn't going to be updated.
08:45:55   Vorpal: ^
08:45:55   Stock Minecraft server until Bukkit comes out which will take months.
08:46:00  oh well, nothing to do about it
08:46:03  (source?)
08:46:59  ah found it
08:47:01  oh well
09:25:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:38:00  I tried to knock a channel because I was not invited, but I do not believe there is anyone there.
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10:06:05  Answer me!
10:06:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Answer me!).
10:17:40 -!- impomatic has joined.
10:17:46  Hi :-)
10:18:50  Does anyone have a TRS-80?
10:30:32  http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65201 <<< this guy is an idiot, you have 3 dimensions in minecraft, which basically lets you do this already, and even his trivial diagrams aren't optimal
10:30:39  wait umm
10:31:04  scratch that
10:31:11  that's so stupid i don't need an argument
10:32:50  maybe if you could color more objects than just wool
10:32:58  and then redstone would be one of those
10:33:48  oh and also i think that's a good idea, just that the guy is an idiot :D
10:34:27  "only an idiot would come up with this particular good idea"
10:34:47                                      o
10:38:56  Psssht, bluestone is bettr.
10:38:59  *better
10:41:39  surely, that would be a very small-scale thing only useful, but it'd take 3 minutes to implement
10:41:46  *-only useful
10:41:57  did some heavy refactoring on that sentence
10:42:40  so what is your bluestone like exactly
10:43:00  is it just a general idea of what you can do with it or some actual spex
10:43:58  It allows more interactions with the environment and requires constant power, basically.
10:45:36 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
10:46:43  and what are those interactions
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10:48:54  i mean if i find bluestone ore, what can i do with it, can i make a bluestone block? can i eat it? can i feed it to a creeper to make it walk backwards?
10:50:44  oklopol, well, you can wire things together with it.
10:51:32  erm, okay?
10:51:42  does that make them move?
10:52:01  One of the things to do was to have a more elegant wiring system.
10:52:10  Redstone's is too clunky.
10:53:22  err k
10:53:32  i thought you had moving blocks and shit
10:53:39  so how is the wiring system more elegant?
10:54:01  More compact, can be put on roofs and walls etc.
10:54:17  couldn't you just make redstone do thate
10:54:18  *that
10:54:31  Well, probably.
10:55:31  :\
10:55:41  maybe i should've asked elliott
10:55:58  he'd've been all like AND THEN LET ME IMPROVISE SOME SEMANTICS FOR HOW BLUESTONE MOVES BLOCKS AROUND
11:00:58   maybe if you could color more objects than just wool <-- iirc someone was working on a mod for stained glass
11:01:30  wouldn't work on SMP as it currently stands due to needing to add new stuff client side for it
11:02:06 -!- FireFly has joined.
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11:04:06  oklopol, he would also be be like "omg lets add lava and TNT to it" or such.
11:04:27  (nothing wrong with that, in moderation)
11:10:10  when a bluestone signal is sent to lav
11:10:11  a
11:10:16  a huge lava monster is born
11:10:31  and also
11:10:38  when bluestone signal is applied to tnt
11:10:45  a huge tnt monster is born
11:10:58  it's like a creeper but slightly deadlier.
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11:28:47  oklopol, "slightly"?
11:30:09  Hi there.
11:30:43  As I think, many people in here are interested in esoteric, spiritual development, occult, yes?
11:31:42  drakhan, no. It is about esoteric programming languages
11:34:00  Oh, my bad :x
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11:48:13  Been a while since we had a neopagan.
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12:00:20  Chrome doesn't have AdBlock Plus.
12:00:25  Ugh.
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15:07:52  "B has got it into her nut that A is in love with her. Now until recently, B was engaged to ... errr" "Shall we call him C, sir?" "Well alright, Caesar is as good a name as any."
15:08:56  lol
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15:13:54 * oerjan tries to remember the names one cryptologist used that were real names but pronounced like A and B
15:14:02  i think Bea was one of them
15:14:10  hah
15:14:33  the other one was something irish-like and thus impossible to guess the spelling of
15:15:44  Abhmnghe?
15:15:48  and iirc it was male
15:15:54  Phantom_Hoover: not _that_ absurd
15:16:09  something like aeion or the like, i think
15:21:08  ah found it
15:21:10 -!- Tritonio has joined.
15:21:12  Aodh and Bea
15:21:19  ...
15:21:58  (wikipedia's Irish name article to the rescue)
15:22:39  Card Colm's column is where i saw it first
15:25:21  um *-'s
15:25:48  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaoSzCfa9OM
15:25:54  Wow.
15:28:01 -!- variable has joined.
15:30:47  variable!
15:33:18 -!- j-invariant has joined.
15:33:23  j-invariant!
15:33:40  hey Phantom_Hoover
15:33:47  hows it going
15:34:13  Left.
15:35:00  07:13:54 * oerjan tries to remember the names one cryptologist used that were real names but pronounced like A and B
15:35:12  Someone deviated form Alice and Bob? TREASON
15:35:14  Phantom_Hoover: oh, neat
15:35:53  j-invariant: it wasn't actually cryptology btw, it was mathematical card games
15:35:59  especially like how it's all sunk into the ground to what must be the same depth as the height of those example cells
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15:46:30  hi
15:47:10  If you don't beleive in caetgory theory you will be eater by sabre toothed tigers
15:47:35  category theory is like GOD, how can you BELIEVE in it!!!OI
15:47:38  Every time you say you don't believe in category theory a fairy dies.
15:47:54  http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/s0894694/agda-course/
15:47:57  wdat's it going to teach?
15:47:57  # Uncomment to get a beep at grub start
15:47:58  #GRUB_INIT_TUNE="480 440 1"
15:48:00  omg
15:48:03  i can make it play a tune
15:48:07  best day
15:48:14  j-invariant: so you'll be gored by big cats?
15:48:23  *groan*
15:48:45  elliott: hey i wouldn't even have noticed if not for the egregious misspellings
15:48:53  :D
15:50:42  elliott: hi
15:51:31  hi
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15:54:55  j-invariant, I could always break in if given suitable payment.
15:55:26  Hey, and I can use the opportunity to kidnap Conor McBride.
15:56:38 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:59:05  Phantom_Hoover: do you have to pay?
15:59:26  I don't know.
15:59:28 -!- elliott has joined.
15:59:38  elliott: http://i.imgur.com/J0U4t.png
15:59:40  But I have other things to waste my time on.
15:59:47  pikhq: Kernel modesetting isn't supported by the native nvidia drivers, right?
16:00:13  j-invariant: great! did you try my idea of ditching the latex type?
16:00:16  no
16:00:21  psht :p
16:00:30  What's this?
16:00:36  wait, did you still not make polynomials abstract objects?
16:00:43  http://paste.lisp.org/display/118670
16:00:58  this is my generic function system
16:01:03  j-invariant: ouch... i'm not sure you want to do that
16:01:10  do what
16:01:12  that
16:01:19  be specific
16:01:20  programming, ever again
16:01:23  that whole paste :P
16:01:37 * oklopol didn't actually open the file
16:02:44  elliott: Okay you should see my actual code first, because maybe you have imagined it is different than it is
16:02:53  possible
16:04:41 * elliott reboots
16:05:26   programming, ever again <-- what
16:06:02  elliott: http://i.imgur.com/sI2Ot.png & http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XWS1MuCj
16:07:13 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:08:00  " do what" " programming, ever again"
16:08:47  i figured if elliott isn't direct about it, it must be pretty devastating
16:09:15  if elliott was a doctor and a guy had cancer he'd go to the guy and say "hey mister X, you have cancer"
16:09:29  ah.
16:09:43  and then the guy'd be like "oh my god, is it terminal" and elliott would be all like "yes."
16:10:22 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:10:34  YOU KILLED THEM BOTH
16:10:43 * oerjan starts getting nervous
16:10:58 -!- j-invariant has joined.
16:11:06  eek, zombie
16:11:40  and the me who'd be his secretary would go all like isn't terminal cancer one despair-filled can, sir
16:11:49  and elliott would go like "lol, classic oklo"
16:12:09  and then the guy would leave because he thought elliott was an occultist doctor
16:12:32 -!- sftp has joined.
16:12:52  but he's actually just a completely insane doctor that specializes in curing methods that aren't at all practical, just weird.
16:13:08  and everyone would be mining the walls of the hospital all day
16:13:20  i think i'm having a dream
16:13:24  Minecraft hospital!
16:13:30  i need to go steal some yoghurt ->
16:13:39  ah, extcore! I think I could build jonguilexiphonaugh on that (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/extcore)
16:13:50  Phantom_Hoover: beware of creepers in the corridors!
16:14:07  You pay taxes in the form of wheat and then there's just a dispenser that throws bread at you.
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16:14:11  mm yohgurt
16:14:18  that was a typo
16:14:29  yo, hgurt
16:14:37  My yog hurts!
16:14:53  Phantom_Hoover: too much yoga!
16:15:42  beware of yog sothoth
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16:21:00 * Phantom_Hoover falls into a pit of boredom
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16:21:15  ubuntu is working stupidly well
16:21:44  08:09:15  if elliott was a doctor and a guy had cancer he'd go to the guy and say "hey mister X, you have cancer"
16:21:44  08:09:43  and then the guy'd be like "oh my god, is it terminal" and elliott would be all like "yes."
16:21:44  <3
16:21:52  well, it's certainly good to hear that ubuntu is so good at working stupidly!
16:21:59  I would have caused the cancer, naturally.
16:22:07  j-invariant: i see that code but i still think you should do it my way :)
16:22:22  because i'm awesome, you see
16:23:03  elliott: but then j-invariant might get an awesomeness overdose!  have you thought of THAT?
16:23:09  tru
16:23:22  j-invariant: what I would do is: (define (render x) (texvc-render (to-latex x)))
16:23:26  j-invariant: then, using your generic thing
16:23:34  (define-generic-procedure (to-latex x) define-latex)
16:23:39  j-invariant: and they return strings
16:23:42  render flesh
16:23:53  j-invariant: then you can just do (to-latex 3) to get "3" and (render 3) to get $3$
16:24:10  j-invariant: oh and btw i'm sure Racket already has a library for multiple-dispatch style stuff like you are doing with define-generic procedure
16:24:19  and a proper type system too rather than using predicates like that
16:24:34 -!- j-invariant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:25:53  08:13:39  ah, extcore! I think I could build jonguilexiphonaugh on that (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/extcore)
16:25:53  naturally
16:26:59  Phantom_Hoover: You know, Minecraft is sorta like Eversion Lite.
16:27:16  elliott: the major obstacle for making progress on that is that I need a frontend for the source language, and I think haskell should be fine as that source language
16:27:47  elliott, ...*how*?
16:28:08  "Oh, it's like *LEGO*. For kids." "Sheesh, this grass is obnoxiously bright. And I'm this stupid block-guy?" "And I make a little cute house. How wonderful and mature." "Hey, this cave looks interesting." "Bit dark in here, oh well." [hurrrrrrrrng] "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT" [slrrrrrrp] "AH OH GOD WHAT ARE YOU I'M DYING OH FUCK" [You died!]
16:28:13  otoh, I'll need to check that I can actually use GHC Core directly :)
16:28:28  Phantom_Hoover: I said SORTA
16:28:38  olsner: what is it, again?
16:28:47  the kim jong-ilasjoifjofdgjkhklfjgh
16:28:57  elliott: not much more than a name :)
16:30:48  elliott: jonguilexiphonaugh, I don't see why you have such problems spelling it :P
16:30:54  quite
16:31:07  olsner: so you are totally going to use SCAPEGOAT to manage the jonguilexiphonaugh repository???????
16:31:10  yes????
16:31:17  I might if you tell me what the heck that is
16:31:37  does it have an implementation yet?
16:33:19 -!- j-invariant has joined.
16:40:57  elliott, down?
16:41:21  olsner: not _yet_, but i am actually working on it
16:41:30   j-invariant: what I would do is: (define (render x) (texvc-render (to-latex x)))
16:41:30   j-invariant: then, using your generic thing
16:41:30   (define-generic-procedure (to-latex x) define-latex)
16:41:30   j-invariant: and they return strings
16:41:30   j-invariant: then you can just do (to-latex 3) to get "3" and (render 3) to get $3$
16:41:33   j-invariant: oh and btw i'm sure Racket already has a library for multiple-dispatch style stuff like you are doing with define-generic procedure
16:41:36   and a proper type system too rather than using predicates like that
16:42:03  i'm going to assume Vorpal has said "down?"
16:42:04  and reply yes
16:43:05 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:43:06  elliott: did you see my image and source code paste
16:43:10  yes
16:43:14  and replied with that suggestion :>
16:51:05  Vorpal: http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
16:51:20 * Vorpal looks
16:51:22 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:51:52  (That screenshot really makes me wish for biome-compliant grass in Painterly that worked on the side (Notch's bug).)
16:51:55  (Lovely colour of grass.)
16:52:01  Blends in really well with the scenery.
16:53:43 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
16:53:44 -!- j-invariant has joined.
16:53:56  I can't figure how to remap a key
16:54:40  j-invariant: in what
16:54:49  UBUNTU
16:54:54  j-invariant: what key to what other key
16:56:04 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:57:13  elliott: "turn off internet" key to do nothing
16:57:45  j-invariant: Run "xev" from terminal and focus the window it pops up, wait a second, press the key, and look (without moving mouse or anything) at the last event in the terminla
16:58:06  Specifically the "keycode" part of a KeyPress/KeyRelease event pair.
16:58:07  elliott: I tried that :( then xmodmapping it to NoSymbol
16:58:16  What went wrong?
16:58:28  well there was no error messages at all, but it doesn't do anything
16:58:34  the key just continued to do what it  does
16:58:51  j-invariant: what file did you put it in?
16:59:08  what file? no file
16:59:16  what command did you run
16:59:17  I just use   xmodmap -e 'keycode ...
17:00:02 -!- TLUL|afk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:00:07  j-invariant: right... just _have_ to check, you didn't reboot after right? :-P
17:00:15  no I didn't
17:00:26   Itried putting the command into .xinitrc and rebotting though
17:00:30  that ddidn't do anything either
17:00:33 -!- TLUL|afk has joined.
17:00:53  so you did "keycode 358934593475345 = NoSymbol"?
17:00:59  yes
17:01:05  except its' a 3 digit number
17:01:10  yeah yeah
17:01:16  j-invariant: probably what happens is that it turns it off in hardware, and then sends the key
17:01:20  so there's nothing you can do
17:01:21  sorry :/
17:01:25  I will try BIOS
17:01:29  maybe there is a configure option there
17:01:32  probably the best idea, yeah
17:01:35  but I don't knoww hot to access that.
17:02:35  j-invariant: erm when you boot your pc up hammer delete and f2
17:02:38  those are the most common keys
17:02:46  it usually says on the screen somewhere what key will do it
17:02:53  but try del and f2 first, just hammer them constantly :P
17:03:03  "If the OS can't see anything when you press the brightness keys, it could be because they're handled directly by the BIOS. The battle is not completely lost — it is in principle possible to hack the BIOS — but the difficulty level is considerably raised."
17:03:40  j-invariant: just try booting into the bios, sometimes they have options to disable the keys
17:03:44  it's not hard to use the bios :-P
17:04:17  how do you do it?
17:04:24  j-invariant:  j-invariant: erm when you boot your pc up hammer delete and f2
17:04:24   those are the most common keys
17:04:24   it usually says on the screen somewhere what key will do it
17:04:24   but try del and f2 first, just hammer them constantly :P
17:04:36  okay thanks ill try!
17:04:39  and then it's just an easy menu-driven interface :P
17:04:43 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:08:28 -!- j-invariant has joined.
17:08:38  elliott: great! that fixed it, thanks
17:08:44  j-invariant: :)
17:08:45  no problem
17:08:50 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:08:58  FINALLY
17:09:04  that was annoying me for ages
17:09:09  kept pressing "turn off internet" by accident
17:12:11  hah
17:35:26  I g9ess I will dgo on minecraft
17:35:40  h I can intall stuff now
17:36:00  elliott, yes?
17:36:10  Vorpal: "I would like detailed birch bark for my birch trees." or "I would like detailed dark birch bark for my birch trees.", latter is best, see the customiser's previews
17:36:19  the former is just too high contrast, *really* ugly
17:36:34  it's brighter in-game than it looks there, btw, for both of them
17:36:36  elliott, the former I think. well, I'll see how it looks when I find a birch
17:36:44  are they biome specific?
17:36:50  not relaly
17:36:51  *really
17:36:58  try tree farming
17:37:04  or just going to ungenerated terrain :D
17:37:55  elliott: how do I find the most recent versions of e.g. optimine?
17:37:56   or just going to ungenerated terrain :D <--- that would be far and take ages
17:38:06  j-invariant: um you get them from the forum
17:38:11  e.g. http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717
17:38:24  yeah how do you know that's the most recent one?
17:38:25  j-invariant: I can link you to all the mods I mentioned if you want, they can be hard to google
17:38:32  j-invariant: um because it's started by the mod author
17:38:34  who keeps the thread updated
17:38:39  okay
17:38:42  they can edit the fpost
17:38:43  *the post
17:38:50  ,elliott I just didnt'w atn to install a bunch of weird versions like an idiot :P
17:39:14  j-invariant: with mip mapping, the link in the first post is actuallywrong
17:39:20  j-invariant: I can link you to the correct one, but remember the order :P
17:39:37  *mipmapping, please be more careful about typos
17:39:40  optimine -> mcregion -> mipmapping -> better light+grass -> texture pack
17:39:49  oklopol: it's actually MIP mapping
17:39:51  shortened to mipmapping
17:39:57  so mip mapping is correct if you eschew lowercase
17:40:01  ergo f u
17:40:37  i just needed to point out j-invariant's awesomely typo filled message
17:40:55  which admittedly just had two centers of typoty
17:41:01  typoty?
17:41:03  anyhow
17:41:11  j-invariant: when you get to mipmapping let me know and i'll link you to the right version for the new beta
17:41:25  j-invariant: do you use painterly already?
17:41:31  no I don't use any mods of anything yet
17:41:38  I'm trying optimine now
17:41:45  ah
17:41:49  so is mipmapping from the latin word MIP
17:41:51  wait
17:41:53  oklopol: yes
17:41:53  :D
17:41:56  did i ask this already
17:42:05  oklopol: multium in parvo or something
17:42:07  i didn't, but i asked something related
17:42:11  multum in parvo
17:42:12  parvo?
17:42:15  many in one
17:42:18  well
17:42:21  "much in a small space"
17:42:27  elliott: how do I check if optimine is working :|
17:42:31  j-invariant: you don't, it is
17:42:37  if you did the steps, and it starts, then it's working :)
17:42:40  guh
17:42:46  if you forgot to delete META-INF it wouldn't even start
17:42:48  so you did it right
17:42:51  I have no idea whether this is any different from the normal one
17:42:59  it is, don't worry
17:43:00  do mcregion next
17:43:11  also elliott, don't you have to reinstall these mods every time there is an update
17:43:11  j-invariant: painterly has rather bad defaults and HUNDREDS of customisation options, so you'll want to go through http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php sometime soon
17:43:16  elliott, still no sign of a server?
17:43:19  and yes, but it really doesn't take that long
17:43:21  Phantom_Hoover: no, it's updated
17:43:28  j-invariant: I can apply all these mods in like... 3 minutes
17:43:32  j-invariant: besides, you won't have to do it every update
17:43:35  since they won't be updated themselves yet
17:43:41  so it's really every update plus a few days
17:43:42  elliott, no, I mean that SSP one.
17:43:46  Phantom_Hoover: Oh. Indeed.
17:43:50  Phantom_Hoover: *SMP
17:43:58  elliott: man I dunno if I like this it sounds like a problematic thing
17:44:05  Phantom_Hoover: But a322 is back up!
17:44:07  j-invariant: like what?
17:44:07  having to convert saves back and forth if an update comes out
17:44:12  elliott, yaaaaay!
17:44:19  j-invariant: You don't have to install it, but it's only one command to convert them.
17:44:23  And it speeds up single-player immensely.
17:44:26  But it's your game ofc :P
17:44:36  it just sounds like somethign that might go wrong
17:44:56  j-invariant: Scaevolus is a very well-respected modder
17:45:02  j-invariant: in fact part of optimine was included in the latest update
17:45:06  by Mojang
17:45:10  I'd trust it, but it's up to you :P
17:45:14  It is a big speedup
17:45:45  Phantom_Hoover: Notch and the Mojangs: http://i.imgur.com/CVAYf.jpg (via reddit)
17:45:53  I saw.
17:45:55  j-invariant: you can skip mcregion, all the other mods will still work fine
17:46:22  j-invariant: i'll link you to the right mipmapping download
17:46:34  j-invariant: http://up.dafk.net/files/9de39/minecraftmipmap4dev.zip
17:46:35  elliott: how do I know if mcregion has installed properly :/
17:46:41  j-invariant: it is
17:46:42  don't worry
17:46:46  it's impossible to install it wrongly
17:46:49  if you copied the files over
17:46:51  and it starts
17:46:54  then you did it right
17:47:10  j-invariant: you don't have to delete META-INF in future btw, since you already did
17:47:28  j-invariant: note that Better Light/Grass are applied differently to most other mods
17:47:43  it does feel faster but I don't know if it REALLY is
17:47:51  j-invariant: it's not slower, so who cares :P
17:47:52  fizzie, has mcmap been updated for Beta 1.2?
17:47:55  Phantom_Hoover: No.
17:48:13  I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED
17:48:16  j-invariant: http://www.multiupload.com/ZJWVAP6EUB this is better light/grass -- unpack the zip into ~/.minecraft, you don't need to touch the jar
17:48:25  j-invariant: then do "java -jar MrMPatcher.jar" inside .minecraft
17:48:42  j-invariant: tick Better Light, Better Grass, and SMChat if you want (simplemap doesn't work without tweaking in the latest version), and click patch
17:48:56  j-invariant: only do that after mipmapping though
17:49:09  otherwise mipmapping will overwrite better light & better grass
17:49:26  okay
17:49:53  Phantom_Hoover: No, but now that there's a vanilla 1.2_01 up, I think I'll update it.
17:50:07  As soon as this render finishes.
17:50:18  fizzie: I'll factor out portamability stuff into separate files first.
17:50:28  I'll test OS X compilation sometime too.
17:50:48  fizzie: SO CAN I MOVE THE MCMAP REPOSITORY TO GOATPEN, THE ONLY SCAPEGOAT HOST
17:50:52  *THAT MATTERS
17:51:01  I don't think it'll really overlap.
17:51:07  You can host your ML rewrite there. :p
17:52:31  elliott: I installed MrMMods but it doesn't show in mods
17:52:39  j-invariant: it shouldn't
17:52:41  there is no official mod support yet
17:52:47  j-invariant: did you run the patcher and everything?
17:53:00  yes
17:53:04  j-invariant: just load a world
17:53:06  the lighting has improved ;D
17:53:08  j-invariant: and look at the lighting of blocks
17:53:08  yep
17:53:11  j-invariant: and also, look at grass on a hill
17:53:14  you'll see it goes down all the way
17:53:27  j-invariant: btw you have to use better grass for now, better light on its own doesn't work properly
17:53:31  hey I found a way to get infinite wool
17:53:34  j-invariant: did you get mipmapping installed?
17:53:45  just take some wool, drown yourself go and pick it up again and the sheep will have its wool back
17:53:56  lol
17:53:59  elliott: I have no idea, I did "install it" but there is no confirmation that it worked
17:54:11  j-invariant: go to the top of a mountain and look at a mountain further away
17:54:17  if it looks smooth, then mipmapping is working
17:54:30  also if you stand on some land and look at where it meets the first block on top
17:54:34  if that's smoothed, then it's working
17:54:35  also
17:54:38  if you look at a big sea
17:54:43  and it just becomes blue the further away it is
17:54:44  then it's working
17:55:09  elliott, hah, a squid on land
17:55:18  Vorpal: Screenshot?
17:55:22  SILLY SQUID. YOU'RE NOT MEANT TO BE THERE.
17:55:38  elliott, it is next to the water stream near subrary bridge
17:55:46  Vorpal: It'll probably be gone by the time I get there.
17:55:57  elliott, I'm standing there atm. Just get on now and walk there?
17:55:59  do I do mcpatcher now
17:56:10  j-invariant: no
17:56:11  or wait, now it went away
17:56:18  j-invariant: you use that to apply the texture pac
17:56:19  k
17:56:26  j-invariant: go through http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php and make your selections
17:56:33  elliott, well it was moving weirdly, that a screenshot can't capture
17:56:41  like how pigs move when on fire
17:56:53  j-invariant: mcpatcher's checkboxes are confusingly named, but basically you want to have them all ticked apart from Custom Water and Animated Water (trust me, even if this makes no sense, this gives you painterly water and keeps the rest working)
17:57:00  j-invariant: but you need to feed it a texture pack
17:57:00  bit instead of up/down, it did it horizontally
17:57:02  thus http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php
17:57:02  but*
17:57:25  j-invariant: http://github.com/downloads/pclewis/mcpatcher/mcpatcher-1.1.11.jar put this wherever, but yeah, you need to customise painterly first
17:57:28  ah no it is there
17:57:30  I just timed out
17:57:31  j-invariant: I can give you the painterly pack I use
17:57:35  which I used to take that screenshot you saw
17:57:39  if you don't wanna bother customising everything
17:59:02  j-invariant: just ping me if you want me to upload it
17:59:09 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:01:34 -!- j-invariant has joined.
18:01:40  Heh, he's added a yet another complicated "stream of variable-sized items" packet field format that needs to be completely decoded in order to be skipped over. GRAA, why can't he just add a length field in the protocol.
18:02:20  elliott: http://i.imgur.com/emifw.png
18:02:22  is that normal?
18:02:36  j-invariant: press F5
18:02:56  j-invariant: did you use the mipmapping link i gave you? the one in the post is wrong
18:03:01  i can't tell from the screeny but i'm not sure you have mipmapping
18:03:18  fizzie: why do you undef main on win32?
18:03:38  elliott: I mean the grass http://i.imgur.com/gFNHg.png
18:03:55  j-invariant: that's Better Grass :)
18:04:02  ah, you do have mipmapping
18:04:07  but why do you use such a tiny window to play in?!
18:04:22  j-invariant: btw better grass looks nicer with painterly
18:04:23  by far
18:04:30  since with painterly, normal grass goes down 2/3rds of the way
18:04:51  okay im configuring paintlerly :)
18:04:57  elliott: Because otherwise SDL.h redefines it to SDL_main, but that causes mingw to go all "there is no main() method in the application, I'll use WinMain as the entry point" even if I statically link against libSDLmain.
18:05:03  j-invariant: my configuration is the BESTEST!!!
18:05:14  fizzie: Ah, I'll put it in platform.h then, as ugly as that is.
18:05:34  I would like a crude creeper large pumpkin.
18:06:16  j-invariant: that's what i have :D
18:06:29  j-invariant: btw you probably do not want biome compliant grass
18:06:34  (biome-compliant leaves are fine)
18:06:40  because it doesn't work for side-grass, because Notch sucks
18:06:55  Wow, Jeeves and Wooster went downright crazy in the last season.
18:07:30  j-invariant: btw I'd do "cp ~/.minecraft/bin/{minecraft.jar,minecraft.good.jar}" now
18:07:36  just in case you mess up mcpatcher, happens to the best of us :P
18:07:49  elliott: oh for goodness sake this customizer is MASSIVE
18:07:57  j-invariant: yes it is, want my precustomised pack? :P
18:08:05  some of us take our painterly customisation err...quite seriously
18:08:12  btr
18:08:20  btr?
18:08:27  I have  minecraft.jar, minercaft (copy).jar and minecraft.mrm2011-1-16-0
18:08:32  haha
18:08:39  make minecraft.patched.up.the.wazoo.jar
18:08:40  or something
18:08:44  (copy) is my backup, I think mrm is Mr... backup
18:08:51  yeah
18:08:56  you want a backup with all the patches though
18:08:58  before mcpatcher
18:09:01  fizzie: If I turn -DWIN32 into -DPLATFORM=win32, is that okay?
18:09:46  There is no -DWIN32 at the moment.
18:09:50  It's mingw-defined automagically.
18:10:03  But I can do -DPLATFORM=win32 if you want.
18:10:19  fizzie: Or even BETTER
18:10:22  #ifdef WIN32
18:10:26  #define PLATFORM win32
18:10:28  #endif
18:10:30  BEST IDEA??
18:10:51  Well, why nots, assuming it ends up in all the places that test for PLATFORM.
18:12:10 -!- acetoline has joined.
18:12:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:12:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:12:53  platform.h:9: error: pasting "PLATFORM" and "." does not give a valid preprocessing token
18:12:56  Gah, how are you meant to do that, again?
18:13:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:13:22  Or maybe I should just use a conditional, wacky.
18:13:24  Sometimes you need a separate macro, if you want it to expand PLATFORM.
18:13:35  #define PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME_(x) x##.h
18:13:35  #define PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME_(PLATFORM)
18:13:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:13:35  #define QUOTE_(x) #x
18:13:35  #define QUOTE(x) QUOTE_(x)
18:13:35  #define PLATFORM_HEADER QUOTE(PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME)
18:13:35  #include PLATFORM_HEADER
18:13:42  fizzie: I actually just want that first macro there to work without erroring :-P
18:13:45  ORRRR I could just do it manually.
18:14:33  fizzie: Or, wait, I'll just pass -iwin32.h to the compiler.
18:14:35  That's the "sanest" thing.
18:15:01  Erm, *-include win32.h
18:15:56  I don't see what's so unsane about just a single #if ..  #include "win32.h" #elif .. #include "posix.h" #else #error "your platform is bad" #endif chain somewhere. (As opposed to trying to autodefine the header name like that.
18:16:03  fizzie: Mind if I ditch useful.make? It's bugging me.
18:16:05  elliott: Jeeves and Wooster managed to go three and half seasons with no transvestites, but being British and all just couldn't make it much further.
18:16:12  (Yes, yes, so HYPOCRITICAL.)
18:16:16  Gregor: Verily.
18:16:28  You added it, of course you can get rid of it too if you like.
18:16:32  Sweet, I'm gonna delete all the files I added. For anarchy!
18:17:03  elliott: cant' decide between:
18:17:03  The core of my world is delicious candycane. ◊
18:17:03  PreviewPreview
18:17:04  I want to live on the back of a cosmic space turtle.
18:17:19  j-invariant: I use boring ol' bedrock, but I'd go for space-turtle.
18:17:26  The candycane is rather glaring when you're in a dark mine at bedrock.
18:18:19 -!- Behold has joined.
18:18:21  http://p.zem.fi/c179 -- *so* pretty. (The new packet field format is: read records until id byte == 127; record size depends on three top bits of ID byte, with 0 → 1 byte, 1 → 2 bytes, 2/3 → 4 bytes, 4 → length-prefixed UTF-8 string, 5 → 5 bytes.)
18:18:23  fizzie, working on mcmap update?
18:18:28  (Yet another place where it can get broken.)
18:18:47  fizzie, the whole protocol changed fundamentally?
18:19:01  No, he just added yet another field type that doesn't have a fixed length.
18:19:06  oh
18:19:16  It's used for something mob-related.
18:19:24  ah
18:21:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:25:40  fizzie: What would be your most approved-of renaming of main? (The platforms will handle main() itself.)
18:26:19  elliott: what's up with all the non-square moons and suns? Weird
18:26:28  j-invariant: I use them :P
18:26:34  (Plain circular moon, circular sun)
18:27:11  Anything, really; but preferrably something that includes the substring "main". (And no, something incorporating the verb "remain" doesn't quite count.)
18:27:51  I'll make it mcmap_main.
18:28:12  fizzie: What's this setlocale(LC_ALL, "") nonsense?
18:28:16  elliott: Finally made my pack
18:28:17  Are we a locale-friendly app now?
18:28:17  java.io.IOException: Server returned HTTP response code: 504 for URL: http://www.minecraft.net/game/joinserver.jsp?[...] -- is there some sort of a problem, or is that just me?
18:28:18  :p
18:28:21  j-invariant: \o/
18:28:21                 |
18:28:21                 >\
18:28:36  j-invariant: Download mcpatcher, tick all except Custom Water and Animated Water, specify pack location
18:28:38  Press Patch
18:28:40  Start Minecraft
18:28:41  Rejoice
18:28:43  elliott: It manages to localize the glib help messages (partially) and something else. I don't remember what I thought when adding it.
18:28:49  j-invariant: (Assuming you ticked a water you like in the customiser.)
18:31:02  why not have custom water?
18:31:11  what should tile size be?
18:31:15  j-invariant: er, wait
18:31:17  j-invariant: OK, leave tile size
18:31:19  j-invariant: you want to:
18:31:21  untick custom lava
18:31:25  untick animated water
18:31:27  make sure all others are ticked
18:31:35  (Animated water actually *disables* Painterly's animated water.)
18:31:37  (So you want it UNTICKED.)
18:31:40  tile size is 16x16
18:31:43  yep
18:31:44  that's correct
18:31:48  click Patch, close the patcher, start minecraft normally
18:31:51  :(((
18:31:54  j-invariant: ?
18:32:05  Replacing kf.class: java.io.FileNotFoundException: newcode/kf.class
18:32:11  what
18:32:15  j-invariant: do the paths look right?
18:32:58  in the dialogue box
18:32:59  that you select
18:33:22  fizzie: So are we going to have a fancy GTK launcher someday? :P
18:34:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:34:16  I don't really think so. :p
18:34:29  I got "Success ...probably" this time, with custom water off
18:34:30  laggy
18:34:54  seems to have worked
18:35:07  j-invariant: ah
18:35:13  j-invariant: you forgot to enable water in painterly customiser!!
18:35:14  go fix it
18:35:24  Do not include MCPATCHER animation files for water.
18:35:25  Include MCPATCHER animation files for light water.
18:35:25  Include MCPATCHER animation files for dark water.
18:35:27  choose one of the latter two
18:35:28  dark is best imo :P
18:35:35  btw hover over the pictures to get previews
18:35:59  I chose dark water
18:36:54  j-invariant: are you sure? :/
18:37:02  j-invariant: you are on 1.2_01, right?
18:37:04  minecraft
18:37:32  fizzie: Should I name portable types and functions like socket() and the socket type with mcmap_ prefix or sth?
18:37:40  fizzie: typedef int mcmap_socket; and the like.
18:37:43  Or platform_socket?
18:37:47  Yeah, I'll go for platform_ prefix.
18:38:13  ITS SO BEAUTIFUL OMFG
18:38:48  j-invariant: If you want to hear your hardware scream, set viewing distance to far and rendering to fancy.
18:39:46 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
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18:43:56  fizzie: Is it okay if the win32 console still gets threaded, even though it isn't quite required?
18:44:09  elliott, how does a language like Slate manage to ... exist so long while going practically nowhere, generating little interest?
18:44:23  Can the thread do anything there? I mean, the currently ifdef'd-out code won't compile on Windows.
18:44:43  fizzie: Well, the idea is that there'd be a few console_* functions in platform.h, that both posix.c and win32.c would implement.
18:44:49  And posix.c would use readline and win32.c just the usual read() stuff.
18:44:53  Or, er, fread, whatever.
18:44:56  fgets. whatever.
18:45:05  fizzie: So it'd be threaded in all cases.
18:45:18  Hmm'k. Well, why not.
18:45:21  Sgeo: "going practically nowhere" is quite insulting to all the people who have been working on it for years. Besides, there was a dip in activity for years, this is a "revival".
18:45:23  One more thread doesn't really matter.
18:45:48  A revival that seems to consist of one person, as far as I can tell
18:46:13  Io is basically a one-man project too.
18:46:17  fizzie, pushed?
18:46:22  Anyway, I'll push this protocol-update change; it only changes protocol.h (and there only the packet_id and field_type enums) and protocol.c, it should auto-merge without any problems.
18:46:26  Hmm
18:46:34  Vorpal: I don't believe he's done.
18:46:43  Oh, so he is.
18:46:51  I am; I just testeded it a moment ago.
18:47:01 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL.
18:47:02  elliott, right, he said in game he was about to push, then he left the game
18:47:05  There it goes.
18:47:22  fizzie: Actually, come to think of it, I can just only have the thread in posix.c.
18:47:42   2 files changed, 61 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)
18:47:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:49:36  fizzie: Is console_readline ever false on POSIX?
18:51:09  Phantom_Hoover, there? Planning on that joint expedition still?
18:51:25  Yep.
18:51:29  Hm?
18:51:35  What joint expedition?
18:51:39  Phantom_Hoover, now seems like a perfect time to do it
18:51:40  elliott, for lapis.
18:51:42  Phantom_Hoover, :)
18:51:47  Updating mcmap...
18:51:52  elliott: It can be if there is both atexit + regular-quit cleanup.
18:51:54  Phantom_Hoover: Filthy traitor!
18:51:56  wait, what colour is it in mcmap?
18:51:59  fizzie, ^
18:52:07  Oh, mcmap doesn't have that block colored yet.
18:52:10  So it'll be black.
18:52:15  ah well I'll add it then I guess.
18:52:33  You can manually add it for now; I'll fix that (and note blocks and whatnot) a bit later.
18:52:53  0x15
18:53:10  Non-white cloth blocks will also be black at the moment.
18:53:38  fizzie, any plans to make mcmap highlight specific blocks?
18:53:48  fizzie, aren't they all the same id, but different durability?
18:53:56  Phantom_Hoover: Yes, with a //command.
18:54:13  Vorpal: Oh, right, they might be. The classic cloth block had different IDs.
18:54:19  Do pressure plates provide charge downwards?
18:54:40  Vorpal, I'll need to get armour.
18:54:43  elliott, yes.
18:55:11  Phantom_Hoover, hm.
18:55:25  Is mcmap working for you, BtW?
18:55:35  Phantom_Hoover, about how long do you estimate? I have an early morning tomorrow
18:55:48  Vorpal, however long it takes...
18:55:55  right
18:56:22  Phantom_Hoover, what about NE approx?
18:56:27  Shouldn't be that long; we just need to branch mine at a specific depth/
18:56:38  Vorpal, how about (-4000,-4000)?
18:56:49  Vorpal: I seem to recall you "not being interested" in lapis?
18:56:51  Phantom_Hoover, well tell me if there is water to fall in there :P
18:57:03  elliott, well I'm not HUGELY interested. But some will be fun :P
18:59:08 -!- BMG has joined.
19:00:18 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host).
19:00:18 -!- BMG has joined.
19:00:21 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
19:02:20  Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
19:02:29 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:02:30  Landed on a chunk error.
19:02:37  ah
19:08:07  sed 's,\($*\)\.o[ :]*,\1.o $@ : ,g' > $@
19:08:10  fizzie: What does that line noise do?
19:09:06  It adds the depfile in the list of targets, so that it also depends on the dependencies.
19:09:12  fuck minecraft.net being downish
19:09:14  There's that GCC-specific option for it.
19:09:31  fizzie: Is there?
19:09:36  It corresponds to "-MT $@"
19:09:39  hmm, new entry for "list of unreasonably difficult tasks for a PhD student": discovering exactly what page of a conference proceedings you don't have your paper starts on
19:09:46  Or -MT $(objdir)/$*.d in useful.make terms.
19:09:48  in fact, just discovering the name of the conference proceedings can be quite hard
19:09:53  fizzie: Heh, I already use -MT $(@:.d=.o) right now.
19:10:09  I'll leave your ugley script in.
19:10:24  It's picked from the GNU make manual.
19:10:44  But you could change it to "-MT $(@:.d=.o) -MT $@" if you're using the MT flag in any case.
19:11:03  Are you putting the Windows build in the same Makefile as the "sensible" build?
19:12:09  Phantom_Hoover, down?
19:12:28  Yes.
19:14:02  fizzie: No.
19:14:13  fizzie: I'm making Makefile.common, Makefile.win32, Makefile.posix.
19:14:27  fizzie: And then probably making Makefile just include Makefile.posix, unless there's a snazzy detect-win32 thing in make.
19:14:28  Or mingw.
19:14:32  What does mingw's uname output?
19:14:42  I don't know, I just cross-build it.
19:18:03  elliott, I wish Slate had up-to-date thorough documentation
19:18:27  Which, at least, is better than Atomo's ... complete-looking, but secretly lacking, documentation
19:19:56  fizzie: So win32 actually has no input facilities, right?
19:20:13  There are the console functions.
19:20:23  But currently it doesn't have any, if that's what you meant.
19:30:28 -!- TLUL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:31:01 -!- TLUL has joined.
19:31:30  also, it seems that LyX's "integrated version control" is in fact RCS
19:31:36  I'm not sure how to react, or how Vorpal will react
19:36:56  ais523: It only uses RCS by default if it doesn't smell some other version control repository in the directory you've saved the file in.
19:37:08  ais523: It does CVS and Subversion if it sees files related to those.
19:37:55  I don't think it does any other systems yet, though.
19:38:30  elliott: chopping down trees form the comfort of my boat: If only I could get a workbench on it!
19:39:15  Gah, that Minecraft protocol is ad-hoc. The format for packet 0x35 ("place a block") starts as "int, byte, int" (X, Y, Z) coordinates. For packet 0x36 ("play a note block") the first three fields are "int, short, int" (also X, Y, Z). And there are quite many packets that start with "int, int, int" (X, Y, Z).
19:51:01  Going to start watching DS9 again
19:55:15  Finally I found some iron (and clay!)
19:58:41  "we're looking to compile at a rate very close to 100,000 lines of source code per second"
19:58:53  seriously. What the hell is going on in "industry"?
20:00:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:00:15  Do you like anarchy golf?
20:00:35  no, it makes me feel stupid. I cna't do any of them
20:01:40  j-invariant: I can give a lot of hints. I know a lot of tricks that can be used. Each programming language usable has its own challenge.
20:03:41  Such as, Objective-C is a strict superset of C, so any solution in C should also be acceptable as a Objective-C code.
20:03:53  ineiros, may I please request a chunk revert?
20:04:06  elliott has caused massive damage to the summit of Mt. Hoover.
20:04:13  Accidentally!
20:04:20  And in an agreement of war, no less.
20:04:24  Drrrrrama!
20:05:04  elliott, you either recreate the entire terrain from scratch or you help me get ineiros to give me a revert.
20:05:12  He'll revert it anyway.
20:05:17  What happened?
20:05:22  Why, exactly, were you placing that much TNT near the summit?
20:05:31  LOL
20:05:31  Phantom_Hoover: We _agreed to war_.
20:05:41  I guess elliott blew up Mt. Hoover
20:05:43  War, as in, war where people die.
20:05:47  elliott, please stop acting like this is a joke.
20:05:47  Also, does more TNT cause a bigger explosion?
20:05:56  Minecraft: Serious Business
20:06:00  I made a comment in jest.
20:06:03  Phantom_Hoover: A chunk revert takes two seconds, and I'm not acting like this is a joke, and for once Sgeo is right.
20:06:15 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
20:06:17  I consulted you on the matter of war for a reason and you agreed.
20:06:26  elliott, what? No, you didn't.
20:06:41  Vorpal, you have chat logs on your terminal
20:06:51  On IRC.
20:07:15  fizzie: Anyway, the portability work is almost done.
20:07:27  Phantom_Hoover, yes
20:07:32  Phantom_Hoover, want them?
20:07:38  I need the strongest posible armor
20:07:42  Phantom_Hoover, will take a minute or so to sprunge
20:07:44  i have some iron ore (not much)
20:08:02  j-invariant: diamond
20:08:11  im not sure where to find dioamonad
20:08:16  Phantom_Hoover, dumped in a file.
20:08:18  fizzie: does -O3 break windows?
20:08:36  Probably not.
20:08:39  Haven't tried, though.
20:08:52  Phantom_Hoover, I have saved them to a file
20:09:44  Phantom_Hoover, hm?
20:11:15  oh no ping reply from PH. I guess that is it
20:11:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:11:40  yep
20:16:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:16:43  My parents have confiscated my laptop because I'm "addicted" and I'm doing it in favour of homework I don't have.]
20:16:59  Heh: #       renamed:    console.c -> posix.c
20:17:10  Phantom_Hoover: Permanently? :p
20:17:31  elliott: apparently it's "for tonight"/
20:17:48  Hate to ask the obvious question but what are you IRCing from :P
20:17:50  I have to demonstrate that I'm not addicted by doing something else, or something like that.
20:18:00  Family Mac, which is in the study.
20:18:29  Can't be long until they find me on this as well and force me off it.
20:18:41  fizzie: Pushed the portability stuff, probably broke Windows builds.
20:18:46  Probably broke POSIX builds come to think of it, but whatever.
20:18:56  They are incapable of grasping that addiction is not the same as being annoyed when you are forced off it in the middle of doing something.
20:19:31  Phantom_Hoover: As a revolutionary, while opposed to you, I am also naturally opposed to all forms of authority, and so death to parents and etc.! But if you will excuse me, I must go and blow shit up.
20:19:35 -!- Behold has joined.
20:19:40  (I, on the other hand, am quite clearly addictd ^)
20:19:42  *addicted
20:21:28  That's an interesting "clean" sequence:
20:21:30  $ make clean
20:21:30  mkdir build
20:21:30  rm -f build/mcmap build/posix.o build/cmd.o build/console.o build/main.o build/map.o build/nbt.o build/protocol.o build/world.o build/posix.d build/cmd.d build/console.d build/main.d build/map.d build/nbt.d build/protocol.d build/world.d
20:21:30  rmdir build; true
20:21:37  where is my intel manual for compiler writers
20:22:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:22:18  fizzie: Yes, it generates all the dependencies.
20:22:25  fizzie: useful.make hardcoded around this, but it was rather dumb.
20:22:30  fizzie: For instance, "make clean all" broke.
20:22:32  fizzie: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=40327
20:23:11  fizzie: Of course, if you're cleaning without building in the first place, you're silly anyway. (You'll want to rm -rf _build and _debug, probably.)
20:23:19  Phantom_Hoover: "The name is quite stupid", like they say. :p
20:23:50  ineiros: anyway, how about that chunk update?
20:23:57  Er, *revert.
20:23:58  fizzie: Would you believe it, it actually works
20:24:04  Well, ostensibly.
20:24:28  $ make -f Makefile.win32
20:24:28  In file included from platform.h:5,
20:24:28                   from common.h:4,
20:24:28                   from world.c:13:
20:24:28  posix.h:6:19: error: netdb.h: No such file or directory
20:24:35  fizzie: What.
20:24:36  Preprocessor == compares values, not strings.
20:24:49  fizzie: Oh, in-deed. I thought that was the case but forgot.
20:24:52  Both "posix" and "win32" have the value 0 if you don't define them to something.
20:25:00  fizzie: I Can Fix That.
20:25:54  down...
20:26:37  fizzie: Come to think of it, I'll just make it -DPLATFORM_POSIX vs. -DPLATFORM_WIN32.
20:27:03  Or you could use the guaranteed-to-be-defined-on-all-win32-builds WIN32. :p
20:27:16  But that's less generic! What if you port it to Classic Mac OS?
20:27:27  Then you don't test against it.
20:27:41  Wouldn't you rather have to?
20:27:46  Oh, I see what you mean.
20:27:49  But that's a SPECIAL CASE.
20:27:57  Well, okay.
20:28:08  Pushin' a fix.
20:29:46  fizzie: http://www.spieleplanet.eu/get/mcmap-gui.png <-- is *your* launcher this ugly?
20:30:20  fizzie, what is this launcher of yours?
20:30:22  It's a lot smaller.
20:30:31  Approximately equally ugly, though.
20:30:34  Vorpal: It launches nuclear warheads.
20:30:49  Vorpal: I added a small launcher dialog in the Win32 build that's shown if you don't include any command-line arguments.
20:30:54  fizzie, ah
20:31:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:32:15  lawl
20:32:44 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:32:58  Pushed a three-line patch to fix the Windows builds.
20:33:00   2 files changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)
20:33:15  Well, maybe it could be considered a four-line patch in some sense.
20:34:27  The link step needs $(objs) $(LDFLAGS) as opposed to $(LDFLAGS) $(objs), because otherwise it won't pick up the referred-to symbols from the DLL link stub libraries. (It only collects symbols that are used.)
20:36:35 -!- cheater00 has joined.
20:37:16  elliott: I like the checkbox for "render the hell dimension"
20:41:23  Also pushed a Perl script that takes a protocol.txt and writes the ugly parts of packet-format structures from that. Got tired of updating three different places whenever the protocol changes.
20:41:40  (Didn't add that as a build step though, since conceivably someone might want to build on Windows without Perl.
20:45:07  olsner: heh
20:45:31  fizzie: But doesn't that -Wl thing need to come before iojdofgjsodigjhfgsihjfkglhjlfkdh?
20:45:32  Before...
20:45:34  Yeah, the files?
20:45:38  Because you had it like that in the Makefile.
20:45:52  Probably not. I don't really know. At least it builds. :p
20:46:16  notch talks on http://www.livestream.com/coesquest
20:46:22  to some guyis playing his game
20:46:31  j-invariant: notch is the worst
20:46:37  THE WORST
20:47:21 * Sgeo wonders if Phantom_Hoover should destroy the remaining stocks of TNT
20:48:20  over 3000 people lol
20:49:28  just because he is there
20:49:58  :(
20:50:03  GODDAMMIT MINECRAFT
20:50:17  j-invariant: PRAISE THE GLORIOUS NOTCH
20:51:49  Vorpal: fizzie: "4815162342 lines of code!" That would explain a lot..
20:51:51  *lot.
20:53:00 -!- trinithis has joined.
20:53:32  fizzie: Congratulations on your DSL (the .txt)
20:54:02  fizzie: You should probably add a rule to update protocol-data.{c,h}.
20:54:05  To Makefile.commo.
20:54:08  *common.
20:54:41  Yes, probably; I didn't want to make the build actually-depend on Perl, but OTOH it doesn't if those files do exist in the repo.
20:54:52  "It is possible to interact with the environment while riding a cart, such as shooting a bow at enemies or laying down track in front of the minecart while it is moving."
20:54:54  Hmm
20:55:04  That sounds like it could be... useful for long journeys
20:55:05  ^cat coppro: i like how much the minecraft talk bothers you
20:55:05  coppro: i like how much the minecraft talk bothers you
20:55:12  (I know fungot's inner desires.)
20:55:12  elliott: i have gotten a test binary file.
20:55:32  elliott are you now speaking to me through fungot?
20:55:32  coppro: i... just another instance of unix is no longer useable as a snarcstation-2. but these days? so what happened, and hardware manufacturers said the name of the
20:55:42  "When riding a falling minecart, landing will deal no damage."
20:55:54  ^cat Stop accusing elliott of things, I'm a real human being who' sa bot.
20:55:54  Stop accusing elliott of things, I'm a real human being who' sa bot.
20:56:00  That sounds like an easy way to get down from high heights
20:56:01  ^cat *who's a. I even make mistakes!
20:56:01  *who's a. I even make mistakes!
20:56:04  coppro, yes, yes he is
20:56:10  sigh
20:56:20  A+ for creativity
20:56:43  ^cat Of course, this means Sgeo can impersonate elliott within coppro's mind
20:56:44  Of course, this means Sgeo can impersonate elliott within coppro's mind
20:57:01  except I can see Sgeo issue the command
20:57:03  ^cat dfjghdfgkjljsdfzl;dfkjgophs94gsozf\dzf
20:57:03  dfjghdfgkjljsdfzl;dfkjgophs94gsozf\dzf
20:57:08  ..Oh right
20:57:13  ^cat MY BRAIN IS A WALRUS
20:57:13  MY BRAIN IS A WALRUS
20:57:20  fizzie: I think fungot is having a nervous breakdown.
20:57:20  elliott: the other hand, given the poor are terribly poor and the program.
20:58:35  Apparently, mipmapping is forcing the volume to 0 or something...
20:59:06  "Changing volume when music and sound are both off crashes Minecraft"
20:59:09  NOTCH QUALITY ENGINEERING
20:59:41  How to catch chickens: Use a fishing rod to pull them into a cactus
20:59:55  j-invariant: X-D
21:03:25  uh
21:04:04  Is it worth using powered minecarts?
21:04:32  English guys: how does a name "cardernet" (for an internet service) sounds to you?
21:05:09  nooga: a bit cheesey
21:05:27  yeah
21:05:30  i thought so
21:05:33  j-invariant: approve
21:05:57  i'd rather name it cardsnet or something like that
21:06:09  because AFAIK carder is something weird
21:06:55  paulscode.sound.SoundSystemException: The specified class does not implement interface 'ICodec' in method 'setCodec'
21:06:55  at paulscode.sound.SoundSystemConfig.setCodec(SourceFile:584)
21:06:55  at sg.d(SourceFile:47)
21:06:55  at sg.a(SourceFile:31)
21:06:56  at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.a(SourceFile:331)
21:06:58  at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.run(SourceFile:643)
21:07:00  at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:636)
21:07:02  error linking with the LibraryJavaSound plug-in
21:07:04  Sgeo: No.
21:07:13  hahah the water in minecraft is not confluent
21:07:26  j-invariant: wat
21:08:47  the way it flows is dependent on the order in which its path is cleared
21:08:48  Might Minecart boosters eventually be nerfed?
21:08:51  sound is so boooorken for me :(
21:08:52  Sgeo: yes
21:08:55  j-invariant: indeed
21:08:59  elliott: The current system seems to have bit of a rebuild problem: http://p.zem.fi/fkwv -- based on make -d at http://p.zem.fi/7nwt it's because you depend on the build directory, and that is always newer because any file-change inside there will update its timestamp.
21:09:10  How much stuff will break?
21:09:20  Sgeo: Everything.
21:09:23  And will powered minecarts then become useful?
21:09:31  fizzie: Oh for chrissakes. Change the dependency on $(objdir) to | $(objdir).
21:09:32  Sgeo: Ask Notch.
21:10:07  fizzie: That will fix it.
21:10:12  Yes, it seems to.
21:11:21  "You can also ride "them" and they'll move nearly forever if there is no dead end. It also moves slower off track and can move through water.
21:11:21  "
21:11:22  Ooh
21:11:33  The word confluent comes from the behavior of water
21:12:38  wait how dum
21:12:49  what a dumb way for water to work
21:13:40  Sgeo: Eh?
21:13:47  Oh, right.
21:13:50  The really buggy ones
21:13:52  *ones.
21:14:02  fizzie: Have you had any audio issues?
21:15:19  fizzie: Shall I add the auto-update of the protocol-data files to the build system? It'll only trigger when the files are out of date, obviously.
21:17:24  I haven't played Minecraft with sound more than once or so.
21:17:27  fizzie, I heard the "ouch" but saw nothing that could hurt you
21:17:30  You can. I was going to, but forgot.
21:17:36  Vorpal: Fell down the stairs. :p
21:17:38  fizzie, ah
21:18:15  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart_booster#Double_Booster
21:18:18  fizzie: Pushing.
21:18:36  fizzie, what were you going to screenshot?
21:18:40  Sgeo: Yeah, that _will_ be fixed. It's a crazy bug.
21:18:46 -!- trinithis has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:18:56  Anyway, here's what I got when I tried to add "show block light levels in surface map for nice night-time look" in mcmap: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png
21:18:59  That's not quite it.
21:19:12  fizzie, hah
21:19:15  fizzie: I WANT TO MAKE AN ALBUM JUST SO I CAN USE THAT AS THE COVER.
21:19:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:19:39  I have made a list of some hints for anarchy golf   gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_golf.anagol-tricks
21:19:40  I think boosters period are a crazy bug
21:19:46  Sgeo: But a useful one.
21:19:49  fizzie: SRSLY THAT IS AWESOME
21:20:01  fizzie, found out anything about the corruption bug btw?
21:20:49  Not yet either. I should really take a look at some point.
21:20:58  Item duplication glitches are useful bugs
21:21:33  elliott: http://i.imgur.com/moAMH.png
21:21:38  I can't stop staring at http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png
21:21:40  It's so pretty
21:21:45  free string every time I spend the night in my house
21:21:55  j-invariant: great :)
21:22:08  works well because I can get fish with it
21:22:08  j-invariant: add some logs on fire there, hehehe
21:22:12  j-invariant: have you built a portal to the Nether yet?
21:22:19  elliott: no I don't have any obsidian :(
21:22:27  I just found clay and iron for the fisrst time today thoug
21:22:29  j-invariant: you want buckets of lava and water, to build it in-place
21:22:37  that way you don't have to mine it either
21:22:44  oh yeah I do know where there is some lava
21:22:47  j-invariant: If it has taken this long for you to find iron you are doing something very wrong :)
21:22:48  j-invariant: string is useless though
21:22:51  To make a bucket you need iron
21:22:55  oklopol: I can make a fishing rod with it
21:23:07  j-invariant: also, wow, you really need to play at a higher resolution :P
21:23:16  you use 5 of it in the whole game
21:23:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:23:44  fizzie: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png has PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL in it, I am disgusted.
21:23:48  Phantom_Hoover: Found ANOTHER computer?
21:24:04  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Quarry_1.png
21:24:11  ineiros, I really, *really* need that revert.
21:24:12 * Sgeo wants to make a swimming pool that size
21:24:48  The damage is effectively irreparable.
21:25:19  How do you do squares in the gimp? :p
21:25:31  Cobblestone factory + tree farm = plenty of smooth stone
21:25:48  Sgeo: Cobblestone factory = useless.
21:25:52  It is 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000x faster to mine.
21:26:00  Sgeo, do you have any idea of the rate of production in a cobble factory?
21:26:01  elliott: Second attempt: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights2.png
21:26:17  that's nice
21:26:17  fizzie: That's the cover to the accompanying EP.
21:26:24  is it correct?
21:26:26  fizzie: Can you save the version that generated mcmap-lights.png?
21:26:28  Literally the only place it would be useful would be in the Nether.
21:26:28  I really wanna use it :p
21:26:30  *it. :p
21:26:34  Phantom_Hoover, can't be lower than mining, right?
21:26:41  Sgeo, it's *far* lower.
21:26:45  How?
21:26:54  "a block a second" lower.
21:26:57  Sgeo: Because the cobble don't regenerate instantly.
21:26:59  elliott: I already messed it up. :/
21:27:10  If the cobble magically reappeared AS SOON as you finished mining (not even a ms delay) it would be as fast.
21:27:17  But it takes like a second.
21:27:19   fizzie: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png has PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL in it, I am disgusted. // worst - porn -e ver
21:27:21  *- ever
21:27:33  Mining isn't as safe
21:27:38  Gregor: I'm trying to highlight the pornographic material now :P
21:27:50  Sgeo: Yes... it is.
21:27:57  If you do a corridor, it's completely safe and you get iron and coal too.
21:28:29  It's not as ecological
21:28:30  >.>
21:28:31  Phantom_Hoover, do it chunk-wise then
21:28:39  You'll run out eventually
21:28:48  And have to walk a distance to find more
21:28:52  Phantom_Hoover, I made some cool stuff such as a note based warning system when someone enters my place
21:29:12  Vorpal, note?
21:29:14  Vorpal, do what chunk-wise?
21:29:20  Phantom_Hoover, the revert
21:29:22  Sgeo: "Run out"? Not underground.
21:29:30  And the world is fucking infinite, there is nothing to conserve.
21:29:33  Vorpal, you mean list the chunks necessary?
21:29:40  Phantom_Hoover, yeah.
21:29:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: This means war!!).
21:29:45  Vorpal, how?
21:29:55  Phantom_Hoover, well the worldedit plugin for bukkit could do it
21:29:56  Sure, the world is infinite, but if you run out in a fixed area, you have to leave that area
21:30:19  Sgeo, for a very short time while you get cobble.
21:30:21  Phantom_Hoover, wait, dump with mcmap. then figure out the file names
21:30:23  HOW DO YOU DRAW A SQUARE WITH THE GIMP
21:30:31  Sgeo: Wrong.
21:30:35  Phantom_Hoover, I assume they would be the same for mcmap and for the server
21:30:35  Sgeo: The underground extends forever.
21:30:37  relative the world dir
21:30:52  You'll *already* have more cobble than you need from mining.
21:31:04  Vorpal, I doubt it.
21:31:15  elliott: Usually I just select a rectangle, then select->border, then fill that.
21:31:15  mcmap has absolutely no idea what the server calls the chunks.
21:31:36   HOW DO YOU DRAW A SQUARE WITH THE GIMP <-- make a rectangle selection, shift or ctrl or something to ensure all sides equally long
21:31:43  Phantom_Hoover: The file names are just base36-encoded integers of the chunk position.
21:31:47  Phantom_Hoover, isn't it determnistic from the coords?
21:31:55  fizzie, oh?
21:33:27  fizzie: Gregor: PROOF OF EVIL PORNOGRAPHY: http://i.imgur.com/c37jR.png
21:34:13  Phantom_Hoover: Yes. The path for chunk at (X,Z) is "%s/%s/c.%s.%s.dat", base36(X&63), base36(Z&63), base36(X), base36(Z).
21:34:20  elliott, ...what.
21:34:43  If you need me to colour it according to how an EVIL PORNOGRAPHIST would, I can do that too, but I figured I'd rely on your OWN EYES.
21:35:13  elliott, is it Cthulhu's secret porn stash?
21:35:23  Yes.
21:35:35  You ... must have an extremely dirty mind to see anything in that :P
21:35:38  (With a base36 digit set of "0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz".)
21:36:50  Gregor: Obviously the woman on the right is screaming in horror at what a horrible picture she is in, while wearing a necklace with a Christian cross on it, and apparently with no neck separating her face and breasts. IT'S OBVIOUS!
21:37:01  YOU'RE the pervert!
21:37:05  Maybe YOU'RE Cthulhu.
21:37:35  And ... a parrot on her shoulder?
21:37:39  Is smelting with lava ever worth it?
21:38:18  Gregor: That's clearly a tentacle.
21:38:21  Sgeo: No.
21:38:26  elliott: Oh dear.
21:38:38  Gregor: SEE?
21:39:08  j-invariant: Here's incentive to play at a higher resolution: http://ompldr.org/vNzBuNg
21:41:14  elliott, does 2 TNT next to eachother make more of an explosion than 1?
21:41:22  Yes. Obviously.
21:41:46  Can that be used to explode past obsidian, or is it just size of explosion?
21:42:04  You would need a LOT of TNT to explode obsidian.
21:42:20  But it's theoretically doable?
21:42:41  How much TNT would you need to explode past water?
21:42:41  It'd probably crash the game well before you ever got past TNT.
21:42:43  elliott: I think that's bigger than my maximum res :S
21:42:44  *past obsidian.
21:42:46  Sgeo: Infinite.
21:42:51  j-invariant: just press F11 :P
21:42:58  elliott: BTW, turns out my security system isn't completely watertight http://i.imgur.com/dUR5V.png
21:42:59  elliott, water is literally unbreakable?
21:43:01  might take pressing it thrice, if it doesn't get rid of your top/bottom panels
21:43:06  Sgeo: yes.
21:43:08  I think.
21:43:23  j-invariant: yikes
21:43:29  j-invariant: did it come down?
21:43:35  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion#Block_Resistance has smaller numbers for water than obsidian, but I really don't know how those are calculated.
21:43:36  According to http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion#Block_Resistance, water has a lower resistance than obsidian
21:43:38  haha it can't come down but I can't go up either
21:43:41  Oh
21:43:46  n/m the oh
21:43:49  Sgeo: Underwater explosions are a different thing, though.
21:44:01  I wasnt asking about underwater explosions
21:44:14  I wanted to know how well a wall of stationary water would hold up
21:44:30  ah.
21:46:26  What... was the point of Notch programming in the spring duplication?
21:47:45  elliott: Do people actually eat weetabix?
21:47:47  Spring duplication?
21:47:53  Gregor: Yes. It's nice.
21:47:56  Phantom_Hoover, the way water behaves
21:48:19  Sgeo, there's a certain maximum damage a single TNT block can deal.
21:48:33  Phantom_Hoover, with more TNT, can more damage be delt?
21:48:47  Sgeo, I don't think so.
21:49:06  isn't it additive if exploding exactly at the same time
21:49:07  So elliott's wrong then. Ok
21:49:12  The explosion algorithm is insane, and I think it's the reason TNT is woefully resource-heavy.
21:49:14  I thought that was how TNT cannons worked
21:49:21  Phantom_Hoover, they have been rewritten in 1.2
21:49:22  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Weetabix.jpg <-- this looks like something you'd be served as an indentured slave to the military.
21:50:23  Phantom_Hoover: Optimine stops TNT lagging things.
21:50:27  So not really.
21:50:37  Gregor: That picture is awful.
21:50:37  Optimine?
21:50:42  Gregor: Also what, you soak them in milk.
21:50:52  Gregor: They... really don't look like that :P
21:51:02  Gregor: With some sugar and soaked in milk it's actually really tasty.
21:51:16  Gregor: It isn't hard or anything, when milk'd.
21:51:17  My hatred for milk makes that even worse :P
21:51:26  Gregor: Oh... well you're just weird then.
21:51:32  Srsly, it's nice :P
21:51:51  Minepedia explains the block-destroying process reasonably well, but not the interaction of multiple TNT blocks, except by noting that other TNT blocks may ignite from the explosion; it doesn't mention at which point it resets the damage-to-blocks counters.
21:51:56  Gregor, use  then.
21:52:05  Coca-Cola?
21:52:09  Yes.
21:52:12  fizzie, that article is on block interactions, isn't it?
21:52:12  Weetabix in coca-cola.
21:52:20  Not entities, which is what lit TNT is.
21:52:34  "The only dangers that a quarry presents are death from falling into the pit, death from hitting a magma flow, or by falling into a cavern due to recklessness and getting killed by a mob underground."
21:52:42  LIES! You could also die of boredom
21:53:50  http://www.minecraftwiki.net/index.php?title=Template:Blocks&diff=40037&oldid=39916 How annoying.
21:54:01  Sgeo, or from spiders getting into the pit.
21:54:13  Phantom_Hoover: Well yes, though it has an "interactions with entities" paragraph too, but that's just about how creatures and players get damage.
21:54:17  elliott: If you dipped it in chocolate, I could see it being food.
21:54:23  i.e. the dangers presented by mining plus one more.
21:54:35  Gregor: Sure :-P
21:55:06  There is a very confusing sentence about high-resistance blocks: "The minimum block resistance required to absorb maximum blast force of TNT explosion (with at least attenuation of 2 steps) is 77.67, 63.5 of creeper explosion, 20.17 of fireball explosion. So water, stationary lava, obsidian, and bedrock are always indestructible, and furnaces and less resistant blocks can be destroyed by fireballs."
21:55:13  I don't really know what they mean by that.
21:55:48  I guess "with at least attenuation of 2 steps" means that it takes 2 steps to get out of the TNT block itself.
21:57:40  I'm just thinking that bomb shelters made out of water are more economical than those made of obsidian
21:57:53  ais523: ping
21:58:26 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
21:58:47  Sgeo, an interesting result of TNT resistance is that the Cube would be extremely resistant to single-floor TNT detonations.
21:59:52 -!- variable has joined.
22:00:05  ..? o.O?
22:00:39  Sgeo, it would destroy the floor and ceiling of the level it was on (near the blast zone, at least).
22:00:46  But the damage would stop there.
22:02:01  What's the Cube made of? Also I don't know what it is, but I guess vertically it alternates block air block air?
22:02:55  It has lava between the floors for lighting.
22:03:23  can the cube fly
22:04:09  no
22:04:12  Sgeo, it's glass with lava sandwiched between things like fizzie said.
22:04:31  Mmmm, lava sandwiches.
22:04:31  lighting?
22:04:39  But there's no air to move around in?
22:04:51  Wait
22:05:09  glass lava glass air air repeat?
22:05:13  Yes.
22:05:19  Awesome
22:05:59  I'd like to see pictures
22:06:27  Sgeo, then buy MC and get to doing drudge work on it.
22:06:50  The Cube site is going to be a deathtrap now that health is on...
22:06:52  You can't just show me a screenshot?
22:07:11  Wait, it doesn't exist yet?
22:07:17  No.
22:07:44  I assume there is easy access to a lava lake near the site?
22:07:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:08:18  Sgeo, there is not.
22:08:32  We used to have renewable lava, but server-side inventory broke it.
22:08:58  Now we sit and wait for Bukkit to be released and then bug ineiros for a lava kit and a chunk revert on Mt. Hoover.
22:09:12  Or just abandon the site
22:09:16  Find a lava lake
22:09:29  Or minecart system between current site and lava lake
22:09:31  fizzie: mcmap is a lot shorter than I thought:
22:09:35  Totals grouped by language (dominant language first):
22:09:36  ansic:         2609 (89.20%)
22:09:36  sh:             242 (8.27%)
22:09:36  perl:            74 (2.53%)
22:09:36  Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 2,925
22:09:41  Sgeo: Abandon the site that's had so much work done on it? I think not.
22:09:44  Sgeo: Besides, one lava lake is NOT enough.
22:09:50  Sgeo: We need 16 thousand lava blocks per floor.
22:10:05  Minecart system it is
22:10:37  Also, 4000x4000? Why?
22:10:39  Wait
22:10:50  400x400
22:11:07  How much does a single lake hold?
22:11:16  Sgeo, it depends on the lake.
22:11:28  "Not enough" is invariably going to be the answer, though.
22:11:41  Well, can you estimate how many lakes you need per floor?
22:11:56  Sgeo: 400x400?
22:12:01  It's 128x128.
22:12:32  126x126 (accounting for the edge) = 15,876.
22:12:41  Sgeo: Far, far too many. Lakes are incredibly rare.
22:12:42  And small.
22:12:43  Well.
22:12:44  Not so rare.
22:12:49  But we'd have to basically go down to bedrock EVERYWHERE.
22:13:27  Wait for update in which portals work in SMP?
22:14:02  Sgeo, AKA never.
22:14:15  Sgeo: That's not going to happen.
22:15:33 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:19:59  How far away can a ditch be before it doesn't influence where water flows?
22:25:28   Sgeo: That's not going to happen. <-- oh?
22:25:48  Sgeo, check wiki? Page on fluids iirc
22:25:52  Portals are going to go to another server, apparently, but definitely never the Nether.
22:25:53  I forgot exact count
22:26:05  elliott, the point was that the other server could hold nether.
22:26:10  elliott, so one admin would run two servers
22:26:22  elliott, and let portals work between them
22:26:28  Vorpal: That requires running two servers.
22:26:33  elliott, indeed
22:26:35  Which is impractical.
22:26:36  For most people.
22:26:38  yep
22:26:52  elliott, reddit minecraft server could probably manage that
22:27:00  doubt they would want to
22:27:07  They already run TWO servers :P
22:27:10  elliott, oh?
22:27:16  elliott, creative/survival?
22:27:56  elliott, and what happened to that server after hmod was gone (didn't they use hmod?)
22:29:05  Vorpal: I think some of the "big" servers are using their own hMod development builds.
22:29:13  Also, yes, creatie/survival.
22:29:17  *creative/
22:29:24  Hmm.
22:29:26  http://nerd.nu/
22:29:31  Or they're just downgraded.
22:29:35  And also have an additional beta server.
22:29:40  What is that texture pack I wonder.
22:30:10  elliott, looks HD
22:30:17  It looks quite nice, like Painterly HD.
22:30:51  elliott, boring: http://redditpublic.com/wiki/Rules#Creative
22:30:59  okay a few make sense
22:31:01  but a lot does not
22:31:02  Vorpal: Looks like the creative server is running Bukkit.
22:31:08  Some sekrit build, presumably.
22:31:14  Vorpal: Redstone ore?????
22:31:20  elliott, I have no idea
22:31:20  Vorpal: I can understand water and shit, even if it is stupid.
22:31:23  But REDSTONE ORE???
22:31:29  FISHING ROD?
22:35:11  Flowing lava is banned in Survival, stationary lava isn't/
22:40:54 -!- sftp has joined.
22:44:35  And now, classic poetry ala moron ala Gregor:
22:44:36  The bird flew.
22:44:37  Why cant they stop,
22:44:37  the bird flew.
22:44:37  If they hav a cewre for canser,
22:44:38  they should be able to stop a simple,
22:44:40  flew.
22:45:00 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:45:07 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:45:13 -!- elliott has joined.
22:56:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Exasperated).
22:58:45  fizzie: Should .d files go in build/ even for debug builds, since they're common to both?
23:00:24  the dependencies will depend on the macros that are defined though, so that's not guaranteed to be safe :)
23:01:15  well... it'll be "safe" but not necessarily correct
23:01:47  olsner: oh, you are right, it'll have $platform.{c,h} deps
23:01:54  so we can't really do that without forcing both in or whatever
23:01:56  meh
23:02:31  olsner: there needs to be a build system that considers make variables (including cflags) as dependencies :)
23:02:34  and, uh, oh so much more
23:02:34  oh well
23:02:35  ghc --make
23:02:37  problem solved
23:02:48  right :)
23:05:04  olsner: actually such dependency tracking should probably go in the OS ...
23:05:13  strace can work for a lot of things, fabricate uses that, but it's imperfect
23:05:32  olsner: again a case of forcing things to go at a higher level of abstraction allowing greater system integration :P
23:08:29 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:26:52 -!- Gregor has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX, FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company would like to deny the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Having sampled a wide var.
23:26:58  D'awwwww
23:27:47 -!- Gregor has set topic: WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company denies the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Having sampled a wide variety of cardboard, the vast majority are not any m.
23:28:19 -!- Gregor has set topic: WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company denies the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Our fine natural additives completely eliminate cardboard flavor..
23:28:36  "Weetabix tastes like cardboard" is possibly the first thing Americans ever said, so shut your face.
23:28:47 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHER | FUCKING | WEETABIX |                                                                       http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:29:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: ELLIOTT'S MOTHER IS | FUCKING | WEETABIX |                                                                       http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:30:12 -!- Weetabix has joined.
23:30:22  elliott, I AM YOUR FATHER
23:30:40 -!- elliott has set topic: Beet a wix | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:30:43 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
23:30:57  every time i read weetabix i think of Mr. Bix from the redmeat comic book
23:31:16 -!- Gregor has set topic: Beet a wix | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage. More at 11..
23:31:19 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:31:46 -!- Weetabix has quit (Client Quit).
23:31:53  I'll beet YOUR wixed parentage.
23:35:17  I tried a weetabix once... I threw it up.
23:36:21  maybe because it was 3 months old
23:39:11  ....did I have a dream about using Linux Mint?
23:39:12 * Sgeo WTFs
23:44:45  what should I do next?
23:44:48  I have a coulple hours
23:49:25  minecraft
23:50:35  :t forM
23:50:36  forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m [b]
23:50:36  j-invariant: yep!
23:50:53  :t mapM
23:50:54  forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
23:50:57  huh
23:51:22  So, not 3 or 4 lakes per floor, then?
23:51:30  I think that would have been survivable
23:52:28  elliott: I can't pick up lava in my bucket :/
23:52:33  maybe because it's a waterfall
23:52:39  j-invariant: yeah you have to get a source block
23:52:47  Sgeo: what?
23:52:55  For the cube
23:54:26  do I need something special to mine gold/redstone?
23:54:43  Or because it had so many suspicious chemicals in it?
23:57:39  Ilari: ...?
23:58:03  j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_(Ore)
23:58:05  j-invariant: iron or diamond pickaxe
23:58:15  j-invariant: same for gold
23:59:36  hmm, I wonder if I could make a web framework that's horrific as possible, to ensure that my prediction about Haskell comes true, while still not writing, you know, a *web framework*, because i'd feel awful
23:59:48  maybe if i make it out of category theory!
23:59:54  haha
23:59:59  yes, best idea ever

2011-01-17:

00:00:02  objects are pages
00:00:07  morphisms are ... redirections!
00:00:14  youcan be the next paul graham
00:00:19  lol
00:00:37  i'll use lots of template haskell, so nobody can read it without first studying every macro
00:00:39  elliott, what's your prediction about Haskell?
00:00:40  like paul graham did!
00:00:45  Sgeo:
00:00:49  @quote web frameworks
00:00:49  No quotes for this person. BOB says:  You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another!
00:00:52  @quote 2009
00:00:53  int-e says: I propose that all of f, g, h and i be made illegal. (referring to http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/StricterLabelledFieldSyntax as it existed on 2009-10-05)
00:00:57  @quote 2009
00:00:57  int-e says: I propose that all of f, g, h and i be made illegal. (referring to http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/StricterLabelledFieldSyntax as it existed on 2009-10-05)
00:01:03  @quote Combinatorial
00:01:03  ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
00:01:05  Sgeo: ^
00:01:15  ok so it's not 2009 any more, but who cares
00:01:24  There's a Haskell web framework in the works, isn't there?
00:01:30  There are thousands :P
00:01:43  There's only one that I heard of >.>
00:01:51  http://snapframework.com/
00:01:51  http://docs.yesodweb.com/
00:01:55  http://happstack.com/index.html
00:02:26  Sgeo: happstack is the maintained fork of the dead-but-famous HAppS
00:02:31  http://happs.org/
00:02:38  About throwing up that weetabix
00:02:53  Ilari: But Weetabix is delicious!
00:03:00  Delicious like CEREAL BLOCK
00:03:42  j-invariant: lol, what have I done, I'm actually writing example code for a web framework now :(
00:03:46  i think this makes me a bad person
00:03:49  but at least i'm optimising for insanity
00:03:55  marketing:
00:03:59  The perfect web framework for type theorists!
00:04:26  Ph.D. getting you nowhere? Have to take a job in the web development industry? We feel your pain. And we're going to give you some more!
00:04:58  Snap's the only one I heard of
00:05:12  Probably because Snap is the one with the obnoxious Ruby-style marketing flash.
00:05:39  j-invariant: D.entity [d| data Item = Item { text :: String } |]
00:05:48  j-invariant: guess what this does? hint: the answer is not "define text :: Item -> String"
00:05:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:06:17  (that would be the obvious thing)
00:06:21  (and therefore wrong, in this context)
00:06:44  elliott, better than haXe, which seems to be an entire LANGUAGE based on marketting flash
00:07:29  elliott well it must creaet an HTML tag for this data type
00:07:33  j-invariant: LOL
00:07:39  j-invariant: no, no, better, this has nothing to do with the web, this particular bit
00:07:46  hehe
00:07:47  j-invariant: what it does is make text a data-accessor
00:08:00  i.e. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-accessor
00:08:06  so you have to do item^.text
00:08:15  but hey, that's USEFUL! totally useful!
00:08:23  and overloading the normal definition syntax?
00:08:26  totally the right way to go about it
00:08:43  j-invariant: can you reassure me that I won't accidentally invent something useful here :/
00:09:18  elliott: THE NEXT PAUL GRAHAM
00:09:31  actually what i'm doing here as a joke is disturbingly like what Yesod does
00:09:42  that's web for ya
00:09:54  no, no, it's clearly proof that I cannot avoid injecting my genius into things
00:10:04  if i continue, i will have the world's first good web framework!
00:10:10  um that's another way to look at it :P
00:10:19  then, I will make shit smell like flowers and taste like lemonade
00:10:29  even if that's somewhat less impressive
00:15:35 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:16:27 -!- Oklopol has joined.
00:17:12  Oklopol is an poklo ol, confirm/deny?
00:18:20  j-invariant: LOL, it looks like just about everything I wrote as a joke is a yesod core feature
00:18:29  What we're learning here is: Haskell, lol
00:18:41  elliott: Oh that's it, you are SO sued for slander.
00:18:52  Gregor: Sure thing, Mr. Weetabix.
00:18:58  rofn
00:19:32  elliott: I think you mean Mr. Oklopol's-Lawyer. -stein.
00:19:53  j-invariant: Rolling On the Floor, Neglecting parts of my life by playing minecraft?
00:20:14  hahah Yes
00:21:13  j-invariant: do you know what makes me SAD? Two-way parsers aren't powerful enough to parse most things
00:21:24  is that a theorem?
00:21:26  (single combinator definition a la parsec but only Applicative that can both parse and deparse)
00:21:30  j-invariant: someone proved it to me on #haskell once :-D
00:21:32  elliott: SOUNDS LIKE IT'S TIME FOR A THREE-WAY THEN.
00:21:42  Gregor: Parsing, deparsing, and ... ARSING?!
00:21:44  elliott: stop destroying my dreams
00:21:52  j-invariant: i know it's horrible, i wanted to write all parsers like that forever
00:21:57 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:22:29  elliott: Heww yeah.
00:22:50  j-invariant: (Foo =:<= digit) <: digit <: digit
00:22:55  elliott: I'm so glad your dialect has a convenient rhyme :P
00:23:01  -> 123 is (Foo '2' '3') and vice versa
00:23:06  Gregor: wat
00:23:23  elliott: "arse"
00:23:28  Gregor: X-D
00:23:33  Arse arse arse.
00:23:35  ARSE
00:25:10 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:26:15  elliott: great now I have all the Obsidian I need -- just have to get a pick to mine it
00:26:35  j-invariant: FAIL
00:26:44  j-invariant: you're meant to use buckets of lava and water to construct the portal in-place
00:26:46  using cobbles to guard it
00:26:51  that way, you don't have to mine it later
00:26:53  actually wait a sec
00:26:53  which is exceedingly tedious
00:26:55  20-30s per block
00:27:04  you are meant to *create the obsidian in the right place* the first time :)
00:27:19  elliott: I thought of thhat
00:27:22  make sure to see http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Portal for how to make a portal and also how to cut corners if you want to avoid using too much obsidian
00:28:26  hey
00:28:30  Vorpal: obsidian is renewable
00:28:32  "Even when a portal is built with only 10 blocks of Obsidian (by leaving out the corners), the portal frame spawned on the other side will have the full 14 blocks."
00:28:54 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:29:11  j-invariant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUxhO9VLKPY
00:29:27  Contrary to public belief[2], portals do not conserve momentum.
00:29:57  I love that song :D
00:33:33  http://pastie.org/1468410 maybe somebody know what this piece does in prolog
00:33:38  or how to use it?
00:33:55 * pikhq *still* finds it somewhat odd that the Super Bowl is actually broadcast outside of the US...
00:34:13  Are there that many non-Americans that give a crap?
00:34:50  nooga: Impossible to say without the context, dude. But it looks like some kind of proof-generating system.
00:35:04  G'night.
00:35:09 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:35:15  They don't even air the same ads!
00:35:20  but yes, unfortunately, there are
00:35:32  Okay, well. There is Canada, which actually has *reason* to care.
00:35:49  Namely, they also play football.
00:37:33  oh, dunno if anyone else cares
00:38:33  Well, it certainly gets *shown* elsewhere.
00:38:56  How many Brits are likely to give a damn, though?
00:39:33  nooga: that's a prolog interpreter
00:39:50  Dominion episode1
00:40:25  i'd like to modify that to produce proof trees
00:40:31  but i don't know prolog
00:41:40  hmm constructive prolog
00:43:56  I can't imagine what a proof tree would look like for prolog
00:44:06  basically and execution trace
00:44:11  yes
00:44:20  that's what i'd like
00:44:32  but i don't get it :D
00:46:24  what ! does?
00:47:08  ! is the hardest part of prolog to understand.
00:47:35  http://cs.union.edu/~striegnk/learn-prolog-now/html/node96.html
00:47:35  Basically they had implemented prolog in a very specific way, and exploited the way it was done to add this new ! thing
00:47:39  and what is X here?
00:47:50  the consequence is that ! makes no sense
00:48:58  They way they implemented prolog was to have it every time a choice can be made they push that set of branches to a stack
00:49:28  ! erases all the alternatives of the top most choice point
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00:52:18 * Sgeo cuts j-invariant 
00:53:16  Now I made up a program to track the dynamic memory usage of other program. Is there better ways?
00:54:25  man 1 ps
00:54:54  What will happen if I eat clementines as my only fruit?
00:55:15  [Currently, I'm not eating fruits on a regular basis]
00:56:05  Well, you'll be at a much lower risk of scurvy.
00:56:07  pikhq: Is it answer to me?
00:56:13  zzo38: Yeah.
00:56:36  I am on Windows, though. (The program is cross-platform, however.)
00:56:56  (I do not like Windows that much; UNIX is better, but Windows is what I have, so I use it.)
00:57:14  I guess that depends on "topmost"; I mean, for a(X,Y,Z) :- b(X), b(Y), !, b(Z) where b(X) can produce multiple choices, the ! will make it not backtrack to try out different values for either X or Y; not just cut the latest possible branching point where the value for Y was determined. (It will also not try some hypothetical other a(X,Y,Z) :- whatever rule it otherwise could.)
00:58:06  This is the program:  http://sprunge.us/IHEa   You can tell me if I did something wrong.
01:00:35  Why do humans peel certain fruits?
01:01:24  because the rind is difficult and/or unrewarding to eat
01:01:35  Sgeo: Probably from not liking eating some of the outsides.
01:03:26  Non-human animals are presumably ok with it
01:03:58  ^^not a good reason to do what non-human animals do
01:04:59  Another reason might be if it is dirty outside.
01:05:07  But, some people do like to eat the peeling.
01:05:11  Sgeo: Mostly just preference.
01:05:14  (Sometimes separately from the inside part)
01:07:08  Sgeo: Though some fruits are actually inedible without peeling.
01:07:22  pikhq, how does that make sense?
01:07:38  pikhq: Then don't eat it!
01:07:53  What do non-human animals do with such fruits?
01:08:06  Or did these fruits evolve after mankind started peeling fruits?
01:08:49  Sgeo: That's "inedible to humans".
01:08:56  Ah
01:10:28  And of course, you must remember that most human-consumed foods are the result of artificial selection.
01:10:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:12:09  (fun fact: the bananas we typically cultivate & consume cannot survive without human intervention!)
01:15:27  (okay, this is actually true of an *insane* number of species...)
01:16:27  THAT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE CREATED BY GOD FOR US
01:17:10  actually, when you mention bananas, it's worth noting that animals do typically peel bananas
01:17:14  Gregor: God created the turkey-physically-incapable-of-having-sex?
01:17:39  coppro: How in the world do non-primates handle that?
01:18:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:18:26  pikhq: Either they eat the bananas or don't eat them or do weird things to them?
01:18:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:18:53  coppro: "Peel bananas", specifically.
01:19:18  pikhq: my suggestion was that they do not
01:19:20  Ah.
01:24:41  ghh
01:28:32 * variable belongs to the Church of Google anyways
01:28:51  I think I'm being recruited
01:30:45  variable: Why did you belong to the Church of Google?
01:31:40  zzo38, well god has to be omniscient right? and doesn't google fit that criteria ?
01:31:54  also google answers my prayers - whatever I want to know - it knows
01:32:08  also - google is all good - it can do no evil
01:32:22  google MUST be god
01:32:57  variable: Google does not know everything. Many things I find it hard to find at all no matter what.
01:34:55  zzo38, then you must not be a True Believer. Have more trust in your query and you shall learn
01:34:57  I don't use Google very often.
01:35:11  Tsk tsk.
01:35:16  Trust The Google.
01:35:21  Love The Google.
01:35:31  Give all thine data to The Google and The Google shall give all its love to you.
01:35:59  I more often use Wikipedia to search for information than I use Google.
01:36:53  zzo38, wikipedia is a saint in the Church of Google
01:37:42  variable: I don't care who they are a saint of or not.
01:37:57  Also, I use a lot of different things.
01:38:43  I will ask on IRC, and search some things on Veronica. And I have some books, I will look there. Or, looking at the files I have in my computer.
01:38:54  But I do sometimes search Google, as well.
01:40:07  zzo38, your taking the fun out of it
01:40:10  tis called a joke
01:40:16 * variable does all those things too
01:40:18  but meh
01:40:38  I do not use Google as much as most other people, however.
01:43:10  zzo38, tbh I'm finding that google is getting worse and worse
01:43:28  variable: I also find it getting worse and worse. In more than one way.
01:56:30 -!- copumpkin has joined.
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02:32:18  Invent a chess variant involving some esolangs.
02:33:57  zzo38: ever play Crobots?
02:34:44  calamari: No.
02:34:54  I think I have heard of it though.
02:36:19  anyhow, HQ9+ could be the pawn :P
02:37:06  Yes, if the game is designed to work in a way that is like that.
02:37:55  I wasn't really serious
02:38:10  Other ideas are: Make a game based on 2-dimensional esolangs. Make a game with some hidden information. Make a game involving cards with commands to execute on the board.
02:38:45  calamari: Yes, it certainly does not seem sensible that you could make a chess variant where HQ9+ could be the pawn (or where any esolang "could be the pawn").
02:39:35  It can be a game with normal chess board/chess pieces, or one with a different size of board and different pieces.
02:39:36  anyhow, what I liked about crobots was that you could make some complicated program that did all sorts of stuf.. but then it would get killed by a simple program because the complicated one was bloated and slow in comparison
02:52:18  Make a chess variant involving pieces with the INTERCAL commands on them.
02:53:31  I think it says something about me that I generally have to close dozens of Wikipedia pages every day...
02:53:50  Not sure what, though.
02:54:15  doesn't strike me as a very unique problem :)
02:54:39  Probably a pretty common problem, really.
02:55:12  I hardly ever have more than two Wikipedia pages open at once.
02:59:20 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:00:12  sorry I'd have to agree.. when I get on wikipedia, if I get more than a few tabs opened, I'm doomed, because that means I'll be on there all night as my tabs grow to infinity
03:13:44  Please tell me whether or not this is good enough:    http://sprunge.us/NXPL
03:14:41  hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program
03:15:37  olsner: It is compileable program, but it requires Enhanced CWEB. Also, it won't compile without TeXnicard, because of the line that says #include "texnicard.c"
03:16:02  I mean just to read to see if the memory usage stuff is workable or if there is something wrong with it.
03:19:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
03:37:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:39:05 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds).
03:57:53  RAM. Cloud.
03:57:55  Why
04:04:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
04:05:33  Sgeo: Because eCloud Technologies is going to let us enter the Internet Age!
04:06:23  I am absolutely bursting to tell people about the awesome thing I just did.
04:06:28  But alas, I cannot.
04:06:39  (For about a month and a half)
04:06:53  Gregor: NDA?
04:06:59  Nope
04:07:42  Too awesome for our brains to comprehend, and we need to wait for your newfound singularity to improve our brains enough to be able to understand it?
04:07:51  Closer to that.
04:08:10  (Not that much closer, but the competition is "NDA" :P
04:08:11  )
04:08:24  :P
04:08:39  Hey, "NDA" is at least *plausible*.
04:08:56  Still not close :P
04:09:02  Gregor finally made contact with aliens
04:09:12  Even closer!
04:09:36  (Still not close at all, but indisputably closer)
04:09:52  Gregor finally made contact with ... something
04:10:01  Less close :P
04:10:27  ...the aliens are the close part?
04:10:49  Gregor did something with an FFI (hence the closeness of "aliens")
04:11:10  Mmm ... about equally close. In the "still not close at all" sense.
04:11:25  Gregor did something.
04:11:31  EXACTLY!
04:11:53  damn you Sgeo now we cannot get closer!
04:12:31 * oerjan suddenly remembers ais523's aversion to "damn you"
04:16:09  DAMNATION BE UPON ÞEE
04:16:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:25:26 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
05:34:26  elliott did stuff with Factor
05:34:27  huh
05:50:01  Sgeo, hasn't he done something in nearly every non-crap language you heard of (and possibly a few of the crap ones too)
05:50:33  no
05:50:39  he hasn't actually done anything about them
05:50:50  just yelled at us about how dumb we are for not having done it for him
05:51:06  Probably he ignored the mediocre and tried out the real crappy ones. I seem to remember he tried to code something in "Plain English" just for the laughs.
05:52:00  coppro, that might be a bit of an extreme point of view. The truth is probably in between
05:52:38  does your leg hurt yet? if not I'll pull it harder
05:52:54  coppro, oh right. I just woke up :P
05:53:23  coppro, besides if I can't clearly detect humour I default to taking a statement as serious
05:53:32  I think I'm going to look at Io again
05:54:40  Sgeo, why are you so language-ambivalent?
05:55:00  Sgeo: the language or the moon?
05:55:05  I assure you the latter is more interesting
05:55:09  o.O
05:55:18  coppro, :D
05:55:25  Why the Io hate?
05:55:37  it's not Io hate
05:55:50  It's just that Io is friggin awesome
05:56:07  coppro, not as awesome as Europe or Titan iirc?
05:56:11  it's the most active body in the solar system
05:56:12  "That's because he's speaking in French the entire series, and the Universal Translator turns it into vaguely british sounding English." On Jean-Luc Picard.
05:56:16  :D
05:56:19  coppro, oh okay
05:56:19  :D:D:D
05:56:28  pikhq, hah
05:56:53  pikhq, where is that from?
05:57:10  Is there an "anti-block" in Io?
05:57:30  Force this piece of code to be executed before the surrounding function looks at it
05:57:33  Vorpal: TVtropes.
05:57:47  Io loses one ton a second of material to the Jovian magnetosphere
05:57:49  pikhq, oh. I would have gussed memory alpha for something that absurd ;P
05:58:06  Vorpal: It's not absurd in the context of the series, it really isn't.
05:58:13  coppro, wow
05:58:24  So, when does Io die?
05:58:28  pikhq, well I watched (part of) the series.
05:58:42  pikhq, and I still think it is rather absurd :P
05:58:48  Vorpal: Did Riker have a beard?
05:59:01  pikhq, seen both with and without that
05:59:03  mostly with it
05:59:20  Ah, good, you didn't soley get the pain of the first season.
05:59:37  pikhq, some of the first season was okay
05:59:44  the first season was painful
05:59:53  not the Q stuff though
06:00:01  It ranged from mediocre to OH HOLY GOD THAT HURTS.
06:00:08  pikhq, yeah
06:00:11  With the exception of the first appearance of Q.
06:00:20  Which was put in as *filler*...
06:00:22  pikhq, indeed that was okay, the second was not
06:00:47  To pad the series opening out to two hours.
06:00:54  anyway. Off to university now.
06:01:04  Is it just me, or is Io a bit of an anti-Haskell?
06:01:12  TNG was at its best when it was full of philosophy
06:01:25  In Haskell, you can (kind of) substitute definitions for .. defined things
06:01:31  It was at its worst when it was trying to be TOS with a different cast.
06:02:13  In most languages, you don't expect a difference between passing in an expression, and a name containing the value of the resulting expression
06:02:29  I know there's a term for that, mentioned in SICP, but I don;t know what it is
06:02:34  Io throws that out the window
06:02:54  Sgeo: As does C. Macros!
06:03:30  Sgeo: referential transparency
06:03:35  and uh, you're wrong
06:03:42  Hmm?
06:03:44  referential transparency is a rare feature
06:04:20  What I mean is, in most languages:
06:04:23 -!- variable has joined.
06:04:24  a = foo()
06:04:27  b(a)
06:04:28  coppro: Really? Most languages at least have it for pass-by-value.
06:04:31  is the same as
06:04:37  b(foo())
06:04:44  oh, that's not referential transparency
06:04:49  referential transparency is
06:04:53  That's not referential transparency, but there's a name for it in SICP
06:04:56  I think
06:05:02  I haven't actually read it >.>
06:05:08  b(foo()) != b(2) where foo() returns 2
06:05:23  pikhq: no language with side-effects does
06:05:34  hi
06:05:42  coppro: Oh, dur, I should've specified "modulo side effects".
06:05:56  Can I construe this conversation as a defense for Io?
06:05:58  But that makes it nearly meaningless as a distinction.
06:06:03  pikhq: yeah
06:06:19  I cannot imagine a language that did not have referential transparency modulo side effects
06:06:35  Sgeo: prease to be explraining preblerm
06:06:59  Io does not have referencial transparency modulo side effects.
06:07:06  *referential
06:07:08  O_o
06:07:17  k I'm going to bed now
06:07:20  coppro: Tcl doesn't always.
06:07:29  I may be misunderstanding
06:07:43  pikhq: my god
06:07:44  Granted, you have to be doing nasty things to it for that to come up.
06:07:48 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:08:08  About on par with heavy, heavy macroing in Lisp.
06:08:14 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:08:41  (oh, the joys of a *first-class stack*)
06:09:00  I think the thing with Io is, every call can be to what another language would call a "macro", and it might be easier to write macros in Io
06:09:05  (Haven't begun experimenting yet)
06:09:15  Erm, not first-class.
06:09:15  pikhq: until your compiler is first-class, you aren't doing it right :P
06:09:24  But... Readily accessible call stack.
06:09:47  coppro: Sadly, the dodekalogue is not modifiable.
06:10:16  coppro, this is an if statement in Io:
06:10:16  if(b == 0, c + 1, d)
06:10:43  Wow, that's not nearly as revealing as I want
06:10:58  System args foreach(k, v, write("'", v, "'\n"))
06:11:17  Sgeo: Looks like side effects to me. :P
06:11:36  Hmm... Now the Lagerholm estimate is 19th. Wonder if that 15th was processing error or if he added couple of days for processing delay.
06:12:23  Probably processing delay.
06:12:45  people select(age < 30)
06:13:25  As APNIC is *definitely* below his declared threshold right now.
06:27:01 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:31:27  In Io, strings have encodings
06:31:37  That... just makes no sense
06:32:00  Encodings refer to the physical representation, not to.. an inherit property of Unicode text
07:04:07  I am suddenly reminded of Haskellian laziness
07:05:03  Praise be to the almightly lambda.
07:05:07  Almighty, even.
07:11:46  Thinking that Unicode isn't superset of everything?
07:14:26  n/m my comment on Haskellian laziness
07:21:31 -!- acetoline has joined.
07:36:02 * Sgeo likes how Googleable Ioke is
07:40:09 * Sgeo likes the distinction between the place where methods accessible from anywhere go (Ground) and the [kind of] top level Object (Origin)
07:41:24  Wait, it might be DefaultBehavior, not Ground, I'm not sure
07:44:17  HOLY. FUCKING. CRAP.
07:44:22 * Sgeo starts worshipping Ioke
07:46:00  http://ioke.org/wiki/index.php/Guide#Let
07:46:18  "Of course, it's a power that can be abused, but it gives lots of interesting possibilities for expression."
07:46:32  Yeah, well, it prevents poisoning of the global state
07:46:59 * Sgeo can think of potential bad interactions though
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08:01:47  excitement of the day:  can Sgeo manage to break up with Ioke before elliott wakes up and modifies shutup?
08:03:14  oerjan: We should have some sort of a betting pool.
08:03:28  yay
08:04:01  Actually, let might not be as useful for what I was imagining
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08:13:58  Hurr... APNIC has allocated over 8M addresses just this month...
08:25:31  That's a pretty insane allocation rate.
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09:01:14  Now the estimate is 20th... Anyway, one would expect the allocation request very soon (or it may already have been sent)...
09:03:33  If the threshold is 2, one would expect allocation request to be sent today...
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11:15:06  hmm, that was pleasantly unexpected
11:24:04  email conversation goes vaguely like this:  service X seems to do everything we want  but that would violate the terms of service  you seem to be right, I'll look for a different service
11:24:14  this does not fit in with the typical stereotype of an employer
11:24:35  (although companies tend to be more worried about doing something illegal than individual people, as they can be relatively large targets to sue)
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11:25:37  also, wtf?: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/01/16/2110254/Facebook-Opens-Up-Home-Addresses-and-Phone-Numbers
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15:19:45  http://i.imgur.com/5rNti.jpg
15:20:25  23:44:17  HOLY. FUCKING. CRAP.
15:20:25  23:44:22 * Sgeo starts worshipping Ioke
15:20:26  sigh
15:20:36  "dad blamed"?
15:21:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:22:21  % This program is public domain, but if you combine it with GPL program,
15:22:21  % the combination is licensed by GPL.
15:22:27  zzo38: That is not even close to legally valid.
15:22:32  pikhq: You be in charge of telling him why not.
15:22:35  Well.
15:22:41  It's either trivially true, or utterly invalid.
15:24:20  17:40:07  zzo38, your taking the fun out of it
15:24:25  variable: you're taking the 're out of you're
15:24:41  elliott, hrm?
15:24:51  *you're
15:24:52  :)
15:25:04  elliott, fuck you
15:25:12  gee, thanks
15:25:16  :-)
15:25:18  oerjan: swat variable for me
15:25:21  WE SPELLS OUR GRAMMARS PROPERLY HERE IN #ESOTERIC
15:25:34  oerjan: dad blamed is apparently a euphemism for god damned
15:25:40  aha
15:26:42  or, in Sgeoland, a euphemism for BANNED
15:26:50  erm elliott that statement is invalid because of the "this program is public domain"
15:26:55  variable: i recall a recent reddit post arguing that people correcting each other's grammar and spelling is the only thing keeping communities from descending into youtube comment quality
15:27:02  s/post/comment/
15:27:13  variable: preeeecisely...except /arguably/ it is just stating informatively /what/ the GPL demands
15:27:19  either way, it's completely useless text :)
15:27:53  yep
15:27:56  hm or was it recent, it may have been just linked from a recent reddit comment
15:28:01  where did you find that?
15:28:28  variable: the program zzo linked yesterday
15:28:31  he is a fan of terrible licensing!
15:28:42  he can't seem to not invent his own ... like everything else ...
15:28:47  oerjan, why do I get the feeling that 50% of the comments were a flame about some perfectly normal variation? ie color v colour ?
15:28:56 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:29:05  variable: well that happens of course :D
15:29:21  i think a saw someone complaining about "whilst" yesterday
15:29:25  *i
15:29:26  variable: *colour vs. colour
15:29:30  you illiterate American bastard!
15:30:06  variable: however on reddit that just means we're in for the _next_ commenter giving us a lesson
15:30:34  xD
15:30:38  elliott, did I mention that UK shows are so much better than the Americanized versions (Hustle v Leverage)?
15:31:15  #esoteric is of course _almost_ indistinguishable from parts of reddit
15:31:19  variable: you are granted temporary lenience.
15:31:23  oerjan: er are you sure about that :D
15:31:50  elliott: hey i corrected it to "parts of" before pressing enter!
15:32:15  oerjan: I'd like to see a subreddit as flamewarry as here... or as interesting... or as off-topic
15:33:17  r/politics for the first perhaps?
15:33:35  oerjan: ok but with #esoteric the important thing is that it's intelligent people arguing like morons
15:33:45  U WRONG!
15:33:46  /r/politics is just morons arguing like morons
15:35:43  ais523: hi
15:35:44  also things go off-topic all the time in the comments
15:36:15  oerjan: well sure, but I just don't really see this place as being similar to reddit
15:36:32  oerjan: proggit circa early 2007, perhaps
15:36:53  and people keep complaining about r/science not having real science although i saw a post indicating they were intending to moderate more restrictively
15:36:55  19:13:44  Please tell me whether or not this is good enough:    http://sprunge.us/NXPL
15:36:55  19:14:41  hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program
15:37:01  olsner: ENHAAAAAANCED CWEEEEEEEEEEB
15:37:21  *start moderating
15:37:40  It gives you PROGRAMMING POWERS
15:37:50  You can write a BOOK and it's a PROGRAM but a BOOK and a program yet a BOOK!
15:37:58  IT RENDERS LINE NUMBERS TO .DVI
15:38:54  21:34:26  elliott did stuff with Factor
15:38:54  21:34:27  huh
15:38:54  Yes, I had a half-broken commit made to the repository that got fixed by Slava and made "0 /" give a less horrific exception.
15:39:05  21:50:33  no
15:39:05  21:50:39  he hasn't actually done anything about them
15:39:05  21:50:50  just yelled at us about how dumb we are for not having done it for him
15:39:13  ^cat coppro: factually incorrect
15:39:13  coppro: factually incorrect
15:39:32  I wonder if I accidentally killed coppro's dog or something
15:39:54  elliott: thinking about it, it's possible that i just tune out the parts i like the least from both places, making them converge :)
15:40:07  oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:40:08  oerjan: hi
15:40:27  wat
15:42:37  elliott: what
15:42:38  elliott: it takes a few more lines than that to make me _start_ tuning out, naturally :D
15:42:49  Vorpal: pumpkin enclosed with leaves, how odd
15:42:52  oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:52  oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:53  oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:53  oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:53  oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:53  oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:54  oerjan: hi
15:43:05  yeah yeah whatever
15:43:14  Vorpal: ok this whole tree seems to exist solely to conceal pumpkins
15:43:23  elliott, do ypu dislike Ioke? I assume if you do, it's for the same "It has no rules" reason for hating Io
15:43:51  It's probably better than Io but I don't see any reason to give it any attention.
15:44:05  It is, IIRC, JVM-hosted, which is a strong negative.
15:44:18 * oerjan paging shutup in 1, 2...
15:46:16  oerjan: Waaay too lazy to add anything to it since it doesn't seem to have done anything.
15:46:38  it's still broken?
15:47:09  oh not done anything to Sgeo you mean
15:47:26  well you do not seriously _expect_ people to respond constructively to harassment, do you?
15:47:46  _even_ if you're right about the fundamental issue
15:49:23  triggering people's basic defense instincts is not a way to make them behave rationally.
15:50:49  not that i imagine Sgeo caring that much about shutup anyhow
15:51:53 * oerjan always feels hypocritical when talking about how people should behave :(
15:58:32  oerjan: well i _have_ tried talking him out of it, and yelling at him directly
15:58:40  and i can hardly program a bot to talk rationally, so instead it yells
15:58:52  patches welcome :P
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16:00:47  fizzie: I think you might want to remove the "simple little" part from the mcmap README's first line.
16:00:54  It's quite a hefty program now. :p
16:00:56  XD
16:01:28  simple little behemoth
16:01:53  fizzie, does mcmap have a built-in colour for TNT?
16:02:04  Phantom_Hoover: I haven't done a thing.
16:02:17  fizzie: Heh, I'm going to tweak the dependency-generating rule with that option that ignores non-existent headers, assuming they're generated; currently it won't generate dependencies if protocol-data.h doesn't exist.
16:02:51  elliott, you expect me to take your word on that?
16:02:59  Draaaaaaaaama.
16:03:13  How do you know I didn't push a SECRET UPDATE to decolour TNT!!?!??@49837869rumkf
16:05:26  Phantom_Hoover: Srsly, all I did last night was walk around.
16:05:32  I am currently lost somewhere far away from the Cube.
16:07:36 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:08:20  elliott: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/
16:08:30  Now what are the coords of spawn again...
16:08:44  fizzie: Also outdated: "If you leave it out, the window will be resizable, but resize events are not handled, so something bad will probably happen. (Fixing this is on the hypothetical TODO list.)"
16:08:53  fizzie: I pushed that build system fix, btw.
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16:10:41  [15:40]  ais523: hi <-- hi
16:11:02  ais523: what are good times to bug you about scapegoat relative to your sleep schedule? :-P
16:11:29  elliott: oh, the issue for me now is that I'm looking at #esoteric when people speak there
16:11:32  but not really taking in any of the words
16:11:44  ais523: minecraft, eh :P
16:11:49  could be
16:12:06  ais523: surely the tab colour for minecraft is different if you've been pinged?
16:12:09  that's xchat default, at least
16:12:20  oh, it is
16:12:47  but as I said, I just noticed I'd been pinged, looked at the channel, then went back to looking at something else
16:12:50  and again, didn't actually read it
16:12:55  I think my brain is IRCing on autopilot
16:13:43  ais523: check the link i pasted
16:13:47  ais523: IF I PING YOU LIKE THIS WOULD IT HELP
16:14:32  ais523: BEEP BEEP WAKE UP BEEEEEEEP
16:15:23  ais523: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
16:15:30  elliott: I only noticed the third one
16:15:38  ais523: ok, i'll use that in future
16:15:47  and probably only because I was looking at the channel at the time
16:16:11  ais523: this is why most people have system-wide indicators if they've been pinged :P
16:16:12  e.g. sound
16:16:17  elliott: I /do/
16:16:23  ais523: you're...deaf?
16:16:38  or just _really_ good at ignoring things?
16:16:48  no, I just don't react to the fact I was pinged for whatever reason
16:16:53  heh
16:16:54  also, #esoteric was set not to trigger them
16:16:57  which probably has something to do with it
16:17:02  must have been a mouse-typo weeks ago
16:17:12  that might be something worth fixing :p
16:17:30  as in, I looked in the client's config, and there was a specific config entry meaning "#esoteric should not ping me no matter what's said there"
16:17:31  fixed now
16:17:37  ais523: I don't know if you heard the last time I said, but my scapegoat implementation can now order and apply changesets
16:17:43  yay
16:17:50  ais523: which I think means it does automatic merging
16:18:04  what happens on a changeset that contains a conflict?
16:18:05  because the changeset {A, B}, when applied, will produce an automatic merge of A and B if one is possible, right?
16:18:08  ais523: it returns Nothing :-)
16:18:12  that's my only failure mechanism right now
16:18:18  heh
16:18:22  i'm trying to get it as platonically elegant as possible before ruining it
16:18:28  and you can upgrade it to a better monad later
16:18:42  e.g. Either, for the purpose of returning more details about the problem
16:18:47  ais523: doubt it needs to be a monad; just (Either ApplyError [Line])
16:18:51  hmm, is (Either a) a monad?
16:18:55  yep
16:18:55  I think it only is under certain conditions
16:19:10  it's just Maybe + error message
16:19:29  as long as you use Right as the actual value, and Left as the error condition; its >>= is defined with that assumption
16:19:33  right
16:20:07  ais523: anyway, what do you think I should implement next? I was thinking changes-on-sets (i.e. directories), but I'm not sure
16:20:28  hmm, it might be better to ask me when I'm capable of concious thought
16:20:32  which it seems I'm not at the moment
16:20:34  (and my attempts to refit the code to allow genericisation have resulted in ugliness
16:20:46  ais523: heh, try and remember to ping me when you are then :P
16:21:56  anyway, my sleep schedule is mostly OK except I was awake all night Saturday -> Sunday, due to looking after a relative
16:22:06  and this is the first week of term
16:23:49  and I have a report deadline
16:24:55  ais523: just one question if you feel conscious enough to answer it: do you think it's possible to derive the file changes with an F([String]) and the directory changes with F(Set DirEntry) for the same F?
16:25:06  i.e. are they direct analogues of each other that can be auto-generated?
16:25:26 -!- Vorpal_ has joined.
16:25:34  aha, probably not, because the way you specify context is different
16:25:36  Vorpal_: what coords are spawn, do you know?
16:25:39  ais523: define context?
16:25:42  ais523: ah
16:25:46  ais523: because with a list, you go between two elements
16:25:49 -!- Vorpal has quit (Disconnected by services).
16:25:50  ais523: with a set, you specify the whole set
16:25:51  yep
16:25:51  to insert to
16:25:55 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
16:26:04  and that's a big enough difference to confuse type systems
16:26:05   [17:29:57] Vorpal_: what coords are spawn, do you know? <-- no idea
16:26:14  elliott, some smallish positive number?
16:26:18  for x and z
16:26:19  Vorpal: well i know that :)
16:26:24  wait, is this channel still talking about minecraft?
16:26:25  ais523: even then, I've been trying to make a "Change" typeclass so that I can define operations generic to change type ... but this might be fruitless
16:26:47  ais523: at the same time, I think I still want _some_ sort of genericity, because e.g. both types of change have the same metadata
16:26:49  that is:
16:26:51  author, date, etc.
16:26:51  indeed
16:26:57  so i'm a bit confused :)
16:27:01  it's just getting levels of abstraction right
16:27:11  and that's coming up in my research atm and confusing me
16:27:16  ais523: I think I'll make a distinction between "changes" and "patches"
16:27:19  also my computer crashed. Something with USB is shoddy and can cause a reset.
16:27:25  ais523: change = basic operation; patch = change + metadata
16:27:29  ais523: changes reference patches
16:27:33  hmm, OK
16:27:40  i.e., a change might be "insert 'foo' between patch1 and patch2", and a patch using it might be:
16:27:42  I'm not sure how useful the naming is there, but I doubt any other naming would do better
16:27:43  author: elliott
16:27:46  date: [now]
16:27:50  insert 'foo' between patch1 and patch2
16:27:53  and the concepts are certainly useful
16:27:58  ais523: well, a patch is the kind of thing you'd show to another person, a change isn't
16:28:34  OK, here's a concept English doesn't have a word for, and comes up a lot in programming: imagine something like a computer game (Minecraft perhaps?) where you want to generate some in-game concept (perhaps monsters)
16:28:53  ais523: now we're on-topic! ...wait...
16:28:58  ais523, err?
16:29:03  there are two ways you can define "monster": an individual monster in a location on the map, or the concept of that monster that it's generated from
16:29:16  heh
16:29:31  ais523: I'd call the former a monster and the latter a monster-class
16:29:33  or monster-type
16:29:35  the question is, how do you name the second type of monster, to show it's distinct from the first?
16:29:38  but those don't make sense to refer to Changes as
16:29:46  ais523, you mean like the idea of an monster (as in Platon (sp in English?))
16:29:48  oh, that wasn't a scapegoat reference at all
16:29:48  i assume that's what you're trying to say
16:29:50  ah
16:29:58  Vorpal: what
16:30:00  Vorpal: yes, I've seen "platonic" used to describe the concept before
16:30:06  well sort of...
16:30:09  it's just a template vs. instance
16:30:09  but it doesn't seem to fit exactly
16:30:13  ais523: use OOP TERMINOLOGY!!192871349
16:30:14  ais523, the second could perhaps be an instance of a monster
16:30:17  well, in fact, this is almost directly OOP
16:30:19  class vs. instance
16:30:21  elliott: except you need multiple inheritance
16:30:22  Vorpal: er no
16:30:26  the second is the class
16:30:27  definitely
16:30:36  elliott, err, which one do you mean is the second
16:30:39  and which is the first
16:30:47  the one that came second in his message, perhaps?
16:30:50  just thinking out loud here
16:30:54   there are two ways you can define "monster": an individual monster in a location on the map, or the concept of that monster that it's generated from
16:30:56  oh wait yeah I mixed up order
16:30:59  I thought it was the other way around
16:31:00 * elliott clap
16:31:06 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:31:07  ais523, how do you need MI?
16:31:10  hello!
16:31:14  this is what boredom does to people
16:31:26  http://pastebin.com/712w0gTm
16:31:38  Vorpal: because sensibly, an individual monster needs to inherit from a monster class (if you're doing OO), and that's the way round nearly all games do it
16:31:54  elliott's claiming it should also inherit from the monster template, which is entirely sensible except it requires MI
16:31:57   I think it only is under certain conditions <-- the Left type needs an Error instance, is all
16:32:04  ais523: erm
16:32:05  ais523: not really
16:32:12  ais523: class Grue < Monster := ...
16:32:15  ais523: myGrue := new Grue
16:32:20  http://pastebin.com/xyGf2UVF <- added some more info
16:32:21  oerjan: right
16:32:29  ais523, yep. So the monster classes inherits from some base class. And then you have instances of each monster. This is one of the few situations where OOP terminology actually seems pretty sensible
16:32:30  elliott: but Monster shouldn't contain things like X and Y coordinates
16:32:35  and nor should Grue
16:32:36  asiekierka: is this on Windows?
16:32:38  but myGrue should
16:32:40  and they are quite rare
16:32:43  elliott: Linux
16:32:45  Ubuntu 10.10
16:32:48  ais523: hmm, yes they should
16:32:51  2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Qud
16:32:52  ais523: Monster should inherit from GridEntity
16:32:52  Quad*
16:33:00  asiekierka: needs moar llvm
16:33:03  erm
16:33:03  clang
16:33:07  asiekierka: also pcc
16:33:12  also non-glibc libc
16:33:12  s
16:33:17  adding clang
16:33:21  elliott: ah, I see, that makes complete sense if you have a fixed set of monsters
16:33:30  ais523: *monster types?
16:33:34  err, yes
16:33:43  most games are written in such a way that monster types could be added at runtime
16:33:49  which is weird, as none of them actually do do that
16:33:59   elliott: but Monster shouldn't contain things like X and Y coordinates <-- so you could have another base class that includes other things which has a position in the game world, "entity" seems like the best name? Though this is getting very far into OOP now...
16:34:05  ais523: how does that clash with my way of doing it?
16:34:08  bench.c:67:1: error: 'main' must return 'int'
16:34:12  Vorpal: welcome to me, five lines ago
16:34:13  fixing
16:34:20  (yes, that's clang)
16:34:34  elliott: it requires generation of classes at runtime
16:34:37  elliott, well you split your statements over more lines. Of course you get more said (though less per line)
16:34:54  ais523: So? :)
16:34:59  elliott - looks like we have a current winner
16:35:00  asiekierka: gcc's error is actually similarly useful in this case
16:35:04  which is surprising
16:35:08  ais523: gcc gave nothing!
16:35:10  asiekierka: you're testing this while you're running an irc client?
16:35:15  asiekierka: -Wall fail
16:35:21  elliott: that and Firefox
16:35:24  elliott: I think that one's actually under -pedantic
16:35:28  asiekierka: hahahaha
16:35:44  asiekierka: benchmarks while running Firefox
16:35:45  hilarious
16:35:56  ais523, if you want to make monsters at runtime you presumably also need to add some sort of game logic to them at runtime. Some sort of AI. Which means you need to add code at runtime anyway.
16:36:04  either by scripting language
16:36:10  or by loading native code, or something else
16:36:17  elliott: it's not that ridiculous, you can use the POSIX timer that counts only time spent by the process in question
16:36:26  and ignores other processes on the same processor
16:36:29  (where "native" could be byte code if you do it in java or whatever)
16:36:36  ais523: that's not a very good measurement
16:36:45  ais523: since it'll probably be quite a bit less than a machine just running the benchmark
16:36:47  and counting real time
16:36:56  http://pastebin.com/FHwQ12XD
16:36:57  ais523, how would you count waiting for IO and no other runnable task?
16:36:58  well, i guess it depends on how it treats kernel time, but still
16:37:03  elliott it's not a speed benchmark
16:37:04  elliott: seems I was wrong, it's under both -Wall /and/ -pedantic
16:37:06  it's a comparison between compilers
16:37:07  ais523, to that process or to nowhere?
16:37:16  IO waits go to nowhere on that timer
16:37:16  asiekierka: doesn't matter, your results are biased
16:37:27  due to Firefox using different resources at different times, most likely
16:37:48  elliott: well, which timer you use depends on what you're trying to measure
16:37:58  ais523, then how do you deal with virtualisation. You can't tell really where time went if you are virtualised.
16:38:08  I/O time is very relevant for benchmarking some programs, and not for others
16:38:15  elliott: did not make a real difference
16:38:23  asiekierka: you can't know that...
16:38:31  i turned off everything
16:38:37  Vorpal: indeed
16:38:40  asiekierka: including X11?
16:38:40  but the console (used to run benchmarks), IRC client and 1 tab in Firefox
16:38:46  "everything"
16:38:54  we have different definitions of everything
16:38:55  i need the irc client and firefox to update
16:38:57  yours doesn't include X11, apparently
16:39:08  there's a whole bunch of system services too
16:39:28  whatever
16:39:35  I suppose you could use emulation, rather than virtualisation, for consistent benchmarks
16:39:44  ais523: i will zip up the compiled binaries
16:39:46  and the source code
16:39:52  asiekierka: how would that help you benchmark them?
16:39:55  and put it up so you can test it
16:40:00  well, I wouldn't want to
16:40:01  anyway
16:40:05  where can i find pcc, elliott?
16:40:08  it's not me who wants the benchmark results
16:40:09  ais523: neither would I :P
16:40:21  http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/
16:40:22  if you want benchmarks just to compare two situations (different softwares, before/after change) or such just turn off most CPU intensive stuff then set cpu frequency governor to performance. Then time the thing a number of times and take the average.
16:40:24  you need the CVS versoin
16:40:25  *version
16:40:26  most of the time that works well
16:40:27  and also pcc-libs
16:40:41  elliott: I would say "ugh CVS", except that I'm using RCS for a serious project
16:40:43  admittedly by mistake
16:40:44  Vorpal: timing a number of times is done by Linpack
16:40:51  asiekierka, the other bits?
16:40:52  ais523: well, they're BSD guys, they're luddites :)
16:41:14  and it's not too awful, except for having to check out immediately after checking in when I'm the only person working on the file
16:41:22  Vorpal - i do not know where to find the cpu governor and i tured off the cpu intensive stuff already, except what i need
16:41:25  the CPU frequency really matters. ondemand is bad for quick benchmarks. Or anything where CPU load isn't high for a long time
16:41:35  really it seriously messes up timing
16:41:45  a locking VCS isn't really an issue at all when only one person is working on the file anyway
16:41:59  ais523: see if you used SCAPEGOAT ... wait, i can't use that on you
16:42:12  asiekierka, cpufreq-set -g performance -c 0, repeat with -c 1 and so on for each core in your CPU
16:42:16  needs sudo
16:42:24  (or su or whatever)
16:42:43  http://reckzb.imgur.com/new_haven_museum#q7EwQ
16:42:46  to restore just do cpufreq-set -g ondemand -c whatever for each core
16:42:51  Beats Deewiant's, I'm afraid.
16:42:55  * Loading cpufreq kernel modules...                                     [fail]
16:43:00  i am sudo'd
16:43:01  or su'd
16:43:09   admittedly by mistake <-- uh how did that happen?
16:43:13  "sudo'd or su'd" -- ah, to be incompetent.
16:43:18  Vorpal: I was using LyX
16:43:22  Phantom_Hoover: Man, that Painterly pack is weird.
16:43:26  i am root
16:43:27  Vorpal: he accidentally typed "rcs"
16:43:28  tat's better
16:43:30  and it all went downhill from there
16:43:32  elliott, the windows are different.
16:43:33  and it has version control integration, but doesn't state the VCS when setting it up
16:43:33  asiekierka: root is better than sudo?
16:43:34  LOL.
16:43:40  maybe
16:43:42  turns out, the only VCS it actually integrates with is RCS
16:43:47  ais523, heh. I just ignore it's built in vcs support. But doesn't it do svn nowdays too?
16:43:55  perhaps as a plugin
16:43:55  rcs is preferable to svn
16:43:57  :P
16:44:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:44:03  ais523, I think in the very last version or such
16:44:05  but SVN is much worse than RCS for a single-developer project
16:44:08  svn is like cvs, except without historical justification
16:44:12  and also, very slow
16:44:15  or was it git? well some non-rcs anyway
16:44:15  elliott, FWIW, that museum must have been done with a map editor.
16:44:21  Phantom_Hoover: Why? Bedrock?
16:44:25  my main annoyance with svn is the lack of local history
16:44:37  although I've been using git-svn nowadays
16:44:46  for use with other people's svn repos
16:44:50  ais523: SCAPEGOAAAAT
16:44:53  (or, in the case of UnNetHack, tailor)
16:44:55  elliott, no, but it has lapis, redstone and coal ore in the one room.
16:45:00  Phantom_Hoover: Ah.
16:45:04  None of which can be placed.
16:45:04  elliott: hmm, we must add scapegoat support to tailor when we're done
16:45:13  And there's a *lot* of blue wool there.
16:45:14 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:45:16  ais523: agreed, but IIRC Tailor's architecture is a bit bad? I forget
16:45:18  back
16:45:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:45:28  ais523: I'm planning to write darcs2sg as soon as sg "works" so it can be tested
16:45:30  anyway... /usr/include//stdio.h:34: error: cannot find 'stddef.h'
16:45:31  on real repos
16:45:32  elliott: it's probably awful, although I've never looked at the source it has a tendency to fail randomly
16:45:36  that's what pcc gives
16:45:41  with pcc-current.tgz
16:45:41  or, not randomly, deterministically
16:45:51  but without it being obvious what the relevant factors are
16:45:53  asiekierka: you didn't install pcc-libs.
16:46:00  asiekierka: also, use cvs, not the .tgzs.
16:46:03  pcc-libs is only available via cvs too.
16:46:10  ais523: sg basically needs to-sg-repo support anyway, for converting old repositories
16:46:12  although VCS type seems to be one of them, and directory structure is possibly another
16:46:16  elliott: indeed
16:46:18  ais523: so darcs can be done quite easily
16:46:27  from-sg would take actual work, but who would want to do that? :)
16:46:32  bbl
16:46:53  elliott: it wouldn't be too hard
16:47:12  you'd just need to figure out what to define as a merge from the point of view of the other VCS
16:47:39  you could either do it completely linear or maximally branching; the second would probably be a more accurate view of things, the first would correspond to a rebase and rebases are evil
16:48:14  3
16:48:32  (sorry, I typoed 3 in my terminal, realised that was an inappropriate place to typo it, so I moved the typo to #esoteric to get rid of ti)
16:48:34  *it
16:48:36  pcc-libs is on the FTP too, but i'll try cvs
16:48:59  the problem is
16:49:01  how to remove pcc
16:49:14  asiekierka: you make installed it?
16:49:16  looooooooool
16:49:24  stop loling
16:49:27  asiekierka: into /usr?
16:49:27  did it at least install in /usr/local?
16:49:27  i know you hate me
16:49:30  just stop loling
16:49:39  no, i don't hate you, it's just i laugh at stupid decisions
16:49:39  ais523: yes
16:49:51  elliott: i only installed linux last week, keep it a little bit easier
16:49:54  asiekierka: it's not too hard to uninstall, then; you just need to rm -r all the directory trees it created
16:50:04  which is easier if you know where they actually are
16:50:05  Or just rm -rf /usr/local if you haven't installed anything there before.
16:50:13  elliott: > llvm
16:50:21  also parts of gcc
16:50:23  asiekierka: good luck...
16:50:29  look to see if there's a make uninstall in the makefile
16:50:31  there is sometimes
16:50:32  use --prefix=/opt/foo in future, or checkinstall
16:50:35  sometimes it even actually works
16:50:38  ais523: checked already
16:50:39  ais523: they're BSD guys. they're luddites
16:50:39  I doubt it :)
16:50:51  also
16:50:53  pcc wiped out manually
16:50:56  (C-INTERCAL's does, although it doesn't uninstall previous versions)
16:50:56  now to get the cvs versions
16:52:00  ais523: you /must/ switch C-INTERCAL to scapegoat as soon as it's stable enough, I want to see esr's reaction
16:52:11  Why?
16:52:28  because everything esr has said so far re: C-INTERCAL has been amusing
16:53:14  /usr/local install isn't ridiculously bad; it's comparable to the situation on Windows
16:53:25  ais523: windows programs all have uninstallers
16:53:31  elliott: yes, but they generally don't work
16:53:37  ais523: they work better than nothing :)
16:54:48  the situation with Norton is ridiculous; it comes with an uninstaller that doesn't work, but you can download an uninstaller that does from the company website
16:55:04  anyway, "isn't ridiculously bad; comparable to Windows" is a strange thing to say
16:55:17  elliott: you've used Windows, you know it isn't completely awful
16:55:26  atm I consider it usable but suboptimal and a pain to develop for
16:55:30  ais523: well, no, but its /architecture/ is terrible
16:55:39  terrible and improving
16:55:43  ais523: not internally
16:55:50  The Old New Thing can convince anyone of that
16:55:56  I don't read it much
16:56:01  I probably should, it's a good blog
16:56:12   3
16:56:12   (sorry, I typoed 3 in my terminal, realised that was an inappropriate place to typo it, so I moved the typo to #esoteric to get rid of ti)
16:56:12   *it
16:56:21  :D
16:56:25  ais523, you are joking right? It isn't some sort of OCD?
16:56:32  *of awesome?
16:56:35  ais523: here's something you won't believe
16:56:36  (you never know with people of this channel)
16:56:46  Vorpal: I am aware you can get rid of typos more easily than that
16:56:46  ais523: as far as I can tell, Raymond Chen wrote Linux 2.0's configuration interface bash script
16:56:58  ais523: Raymond Chen, of Old New Thing. *While working at Microsoft.*
16:57:07  I was just in a mood to give this one a home
16:57:08  ais523, well yes. But would you use the other way?
16:57:13  ah
16:57:15  ais523: it was credited to a Raymond Chen, it had an @microsoft.com email, and IIRC googling the email vaguely pointed me in his direction.
16:57:32  that's not completely implausible
16:57:32  ais523: It was a *bash shell script*. Used for configuring Linux 2.0.
16:57:39  Not completely, but awesome!
16:57:51  ais523: (it's a horrific script -- it reads answers from /dev/tty, so you can't pipe less in)
16:57:54  elliott
16:57:55  *pipe yes in
16:57:58  I have no idea why
16:58:03  where can i find the way to download pcc-libs via cvs
16:58:16  http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/downloads/
16:58:18  check out the pcc-libs module
16:58:24  via cvs
16:58:28  elliott: hey, C-INTERCAL reads from /dev/tty
16:58:28  same pserver as listed there
16:58:33  ais523: why?
16:58:33  or used to, at least
16:58:44  because the code logic completely lost track of stdin after a while
16:58:51  and I got lost trying to figure out where it had got to
16:58:56  possibly still does
16:58:56  haha
16:59:05  just for the debugger, which makes sense reading from the tty anyway
16:59:16  elliott, for unknown reason it reassigned stdout and stdin a lot iirc
16:59:39  ais523, but what if you want to use the debugger from inside an editor. Like gdb-mode for emacs or similar?
16:59:56  Vorpal: M-x term
17:00:04  although that's far from optimal
17:00:08  indeed
17:00:16  also, doesn't Emacs simulate /dev/tty anyway in shell-mode?
17:00:17  elliott: /usr/include//signal.h:349: error: cannot find 'stddef.h'
17:00:19  the funny thing is
17:00:22  there is no stddef.h in there
17:00:24  you can just use a pty
17:00:28  ais523, perhaps. I haven't checked how gdb mode work or such
17:00:32  asiekierka: did you make install pcc-libs?
17:00:35  sorry, I'm vaguely annoyed at the moment because the burglar alarm's gone off again
17:00:46  elliott: that happens while compiling pcc-libs
17:00:50  ais523, at university?
17:00:52  ais523: comint doesn't simulate /dev/tty, i don't _think_
17:00:52  it uses pcc to compile them
17:00:54  Vorpal: yes
17:00:57  asiekierka: it shouldn't
17:00:57  ah
17:00:59  asiekierka: it's meant to use gcc
17:01:02  you set CC=pcc or something
17:01:11  asiekierka: failing that, "make clean; CC=gcc ./configure"
17:01:27  elliott, wait, can't it self-host?
17:01:31  elliott - still uses pcc
17:01:37  Vorpal: Not when you don't have a working compiler yet :-P
17:01:42  pcc-libs is the other half to pcc on Linux.
17:01:45  elliott, fair enough
17:01:58  asiekierka: you should have compiled pcc second, I don't know what to do; it should work with CC=gcc
17:02:02  if it doesn't you did something really weird
17:02:07  elliott: it does not have a check for CC anywhere
17:02:07  elliott, though iirc gcc insists on self-hosting itself when compiling with any other compilser
17:02:09  compiler*
17:02:11  asiekierka: what?
17:02:17  ./configure listens to CC.
17:02:20  *$CC
17:02:22  i tried searching the entire ./configure to CC
17:02:24  for CC
17:02:38  /sigh
17:02:43  is that autoconf configure?
17:02:46  yes.
17:02:47  got it
17:02:50  well then wtf
17:02:52  so it probably does some random shit.
17:02:55  rather than say CC directly.
17:03:00  Vorpal: it does that for two reasons: half of it's written in gcc extensions, and as a check (it compares gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc to gcc compiled with gcc compiled with $OTHER_COMPILER to verify they're identical)
17:03:22  ais523: that's far too many recursions
17:03:24  yeah
17:03:24  autoconf respects CC
17:03:25  elliott: fixed it
17:03:32  elliott: any fewer and you wouldn't expect the binaries to match
17:03:32  removed /usr/local/bin/pcc (will reinstall it)
17:03:42  it does check for pcc hardcoded, if it doesnt find it only then it uses gcc
17:03:43  ais523: gcc compiled with gcc compiled with X = gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc compiled with X
17:03:58  ais523: that's two less recursions than yours
17:04:13  now it works
17:04:15  and that only requires three compilations
17:04:26  ais523, but what about stuff like debug info. Wouldn't you expect them to differ (different paths in the debug info)?
17:04:26  ais523: and since gcc only goes up to stage3, I *doubt* it does what you said
17:04:43  runs at roughly the same speed as GCC
17:04:52  elliott: no, that's what I said
17:04:54  actually a bit slower
17:04:54  just the other way round
17:04:58  elliott, actually he got the count right
17:05:01  i'll try to recompile pcc-libs with pcc now
17:05:06  ais523: oh, you used "with" to separate them both
17:05:20  elliott, no he used "to"
17:05:20  ais523: thus making your sentence completely unparsable
17:05:29  i'm not looking at that sentence again, it hurts me
17:05:46  nope, no difference
17:06:01  well with PCC-compiled libs it is faster
17:06:13  still slower than GCC, though
17:06:19  asiekierka: now do them all again with uClibc/dietlibc (compilers bootstrapped with same)
17:06:20  have fun
17:06:30  yay
17:06:43  elliott, well here I added markup, look if you want, if not then don't: "it compares (gcc [3] compiled with gcc [2] compiled with gcc [1]) to (gcc [2] compiled with gcc [1] compiled with $OTHER_COMPILER) to verify they're identical"
17:06:44  you need to patch both dietlibc and pcc to get them working together, but i can't give you them, they're on the other box.
17:06:51  Vorpal: right.
17:07:01  elliott, the number are the stage numbers
17:07:04  ais523: it's a lot easier if you have a C interpreter
17:07:04  numbers*
17:07:15  elliott, does any exist?
17:07:17  ais523: gcc compiled with gcc_interpreted = gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc_interpreted
17:07:20  Vorpal: *do, and I thnk so
17:07:22  *think
17:07:27  Cint or whatever
17:07:27  heh nice
17:07:28  and Ch
17:07:34  Ch supports the 1999 ISO C Standard (C99) and C++ classes. It is superset of C with C++ classes. C99 major features such as complex numbers, variable length arrays (VLAs), IEEE-754 floating-point arithmetic and generic mathematical functions are supported. Wide characters in Addendum 1 for C90 is also supported.
17:07:36  on the other hand
17:07:40  PCC wins in size
17:07:56  elliott: that's not really much easier, you just replaced "compiled with" with "interpreted with", then "interpreted with" with an underscore
17:08:00  asiekierka: pcc/dietlibc can produce statically-linked executables of 4K in size
17:08:02  elliott, complex numbers. heh nice
17:08:14  elliott, that is one of the features I would expect to be unsupported
17:08:15  asiekierka: (statically linking with glibc = 100K+ usually)
17:08:22  Vorpal: not that hard to do, surely
17:08:40  ais523: shush :)
17:08:45  hmm, pcc supports all of C89 and some of C99?
17:08:46  ais523: it's certainly faster to do, probably
17:08:47  elliott, yeah but if you look at C99 compilers it is one of the last features to get done it seems.
17:08:50  http://pastebin.com/b4P3QzZM
17:08:50  since gcc takes so long to compile
17:09:02  current rank
17:09:04  elliott, (based on clang and gcc development history)
17:09:18  elliott, possibly because few people use it?
17:09:25  probably
17:10:02  http://pastebin.com/fJ2CVjjj <- added one more important info
17:10:27  most effort put into biased benchmarks evar
17:10:40   since gcc takes so long to compile <-- wouldn't it take ages to interpret as well?
17:10:54  Vorpal: well you'd only hit the codepaths that are actually used to compile gcc.
17:10:56  so probably not.
17:10:58  elliott: bash adds a bit of overhead
17:10:59  ok it'd be very slow still :)
17:11:00  should i disable it too
17:11:08  no it doesn't
17:11:10  elliott, well a coverage analysis might be interesting here.
17:11:13  also the kernel adds some
17:11:14  bash will just be sleeping while it runs
17:11:17  i should do it without a kernel
17:11:20  false comparison
17:11:22  but, I'm not going to try that on gcc bootstrap
17:12:11  http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f3llk/dear_mojang_different_colored_wood_and_stairs/c1d2hz4?context=2 I approve
17:12:14  (sorry ais523)
17:12:32  here's another question
17:12:41  how to switch ubuntu to use dietlibc and not glibc
17:12:51  I'm not sure if it's designed for that sort of customization
17:13:04  the purpose of Ubuntu isn't really extreme tinkering
17:13:20  (does even gentoo let you do that switch easily?)
17:13:23  hey even gentoo doesn't support that sort of stuff iirc
17:13:37  according to my biased benchmark, if you care about size you should use PCC (it has the performance of GCC but a far smaller size)
17:13:47  if you care about speed, use Clang (the files are not the biggest either)
17:14:02  asiekierka: what?
17:14:06  asiekierka: you just install dietlibc in another prefix.
17:14:10  and then compile with /opt/bin/diet gcc ...
17:14:20  asiekierka: what optimization options are you using?
17:14:20  also, pcc's performance is lower than gcc.
17:14:25  and clang's runtime performance is often slower than gcc
17:14:29  (but it is always faster at compiling)
17:14:32  ais523: none!
17:14:40  asiekierka, well duh.
17:14:40  i use -o bench-[whatever] -lm bench.c
17:14:48  i'll try to run it with -O3 then
17:14:49  i guess
17:14:50  asiekierka: oh, you're talking about compilation speed, not the speed of the resulting program?
17:14:55  ais523 no
17:14:58  talking about the speed of the app
17:15:01  i'll try -O3 now, i guess
17:15:03  also, -Os is often better for speed of the resulting program due to cache effects
17:15:11  i'll use -Os then
17:15:13  asiekierka, you need each -O then. -Os can be faster. And is certainly smaller
17:15:20  asiekierka, so do them all, well not -O1 I guess
17:15:27  but -Os, -O2, -O3
17:15:37  and equiv ones for other compilers
17:15:53  comparing unoptimized compiler output for speed is unlikely to be too helpful...
17:16:08  LOL, you used no optimisation options?
17:16:10  faaaail
17:16:18  asiekierka: for a benchmark like this you want -O2
17:16:21  elliott stop going all fail over me, that's really annoying
17:16:25  since it's performance-heavy
17:16:32  asiekierka: well, in my defence, you are failing. very hard.
17:16:34  why not -Os -O2 -O3
17:16:38  elliott i am
17:16:39  ...
17:16:41  but you should just tell me
17:16:46  i am
17:16:47  and not go LOL FAIL BWAHAHAHAHA WHAT A NOOB
17:16:48   faaaail
17:16:58  as that's how i see your actions every 30 seconds
17:17:22  Vorpal: do two torches right after each other mean "end of line" in your exploration-marking system?
17:17:27  I'm trying to get back to spawn from (100,100)
17:17:31  and I've been following your torches
17:17:37  TCC seems to have no optimization options
17:17:37  and there are two right after each other and then none that I can see
17:17:38  *facepalm*
17:17:45  asiekierka: it has -O IIRC
17:18:02  the filesize does not change at all
17:18:05  Vorpal: oh wait found the next one
17:18:07  elliott, no. It depends on context
17:18:12  elliott, is it underground?
17:18:12  asiekierka: i believe it is on by default.
17:18:15  Vorpal: no, overground
17:18:22  elliott, what, then I have no idea :P
17:18:26  elliott, probably marking something
17:18:27  Vorpal: ...
17:18:28  look around
17:18:35  Vorpal: there ain't shit there but more torches
17:18:41  elliott, maybe there is some cool scenery around?
17:18:43  it's vaguely pretty i guess
17:18:51  GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:18:57  elliott, which direction do you move
17:19:04  wut
17:19:09  asiekierka: THOSE OVERRIDE EACH OTHER
17:19:14  elliott, is this one of the east or west trails?
17:19:20  Vorpal: I don't know!
17:19:23  elliott tell that to Vorpal
17:19:26  Vorpal: I think I might be going the wrong way
17:19:29  asiekierka: it was a list.
17:19:31   but -Os, -O2, -O3
17:19:33  you fail at english.
17:19:34  asiekierka, the last one takes effect
17:19:35  did i mention fail?
17:19:36  fail fail fail
17:19:39  faaaaail fail fail
17:19:44  asiekierka, it was trying each one. Separately
17:19:45  I know a song that will annoy everyoneeeeeee
17:19:48  quite obvious
17:19:51  see the comma there?
17:19:51  it's called fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, YOU FAAAIL
17:19:53  now try to read
17:19:57  oh ok
17:19:58  `addquote  GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:20:02  Vorpal: you need to place more torches, cheapskate
17:20:08  elliott, uh, *WHERE*
17:20:08  (ais523: talking about real life obviously)
17:20:10  Vorpal: here
17:20:16  i can't follow your trails :D
17:20:16  elliott, I can't get on atm
17:20:16  elliott: oh, I don't mind
17:20:19  I'm just surprised
17:20:25  elliott, I'm on EDGE
17:20:33  elliott, I will not minecraft on that
17:20:39  the connection is just too  bad
17:20:42  Oklopol minecrafts on a 3g stick, i bet it's normally on edge
17:20:44  be hardcore!
17:20:45  s/  / /
17:20:52  ais523: it's... slightly addictive
17:20:55  now i did them separately
17:21:01  elliott, dude, normally you get 3G in scandinavia :P
17:21:08  Os gives 1400000 KFlops (compared to 400000 pre-optimization)
17:21:23  #esoteric-minecraft anyone?
17:21:23  elliott, anyway. tell me which direction compared to spawn
17:21:28  it's probably common enough talk to get its own channel
17:21:35  elliott, otherwise I suspect it is someone else who placed that
17:22:09  267)  GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:22:31  Vorpal: I'll add him as an op.
17:22:38  elliott, and resign yourself?
17:22:53  Vorpal: Are you afraid I'll ban you and then you'll die or something?
17:23:16  Vorpal: There, given fizzie enough flags that he can remove my privileges if he wants, but I doubt he will.
17:23:21  elliott, no I'm not "afraid". I'm just suspecting you will abuse the op at some point
17:23:26  like whenever we two disagree
17:23:28  Vorpal: To do _what_?
17:23:41  If fizzie has ops he can trivially remove any ban I place.
17:24:01  elliott, kickban probably. One way to resolve this would be to make me op as well. I wouldn't abuse it (I'm not you)
17:24:20  tl;dr  YOU'RE EVIL AND IMMATURE, SO OP ME NOW!!!!!!!!!
17:24:37  ok
17:24:37  elliott, no :P
17:24:55  elliott, but I do not trust you to be a balanced person.
17:24:55  i'm now re-benchmarking every compiler (except tcc which lacks optimization options)
17:25:00  for -Os, -O3 and -O2 separately
17:25:14  ais523, not every compiler has -Os, and clang has more than -O3 iirc
17:25:18  ais523, read the docs
17:25:20  for details
17:25:27  hey ais523, did you know that I'm unbalanced
17:25:34  Vorpal: why are you pinging me with that, I'm not surprised at all
17:25:39  elliott: in what sense?
17:25:41  ais523, err
17:25:44  ais523: I dunno, ask Vorpal
17:25:44  ais523, mistap
17:25:46  tab*
17:25:47  oh, in the winning an insult match sense
17:25:49  asiekierka, ^
17:26:01  thanks
17:26:05  ais523, not really. I'm just describing him
17:26:09  the point is i won't do a separate benchmark for 1 compiler
17:26:32  i will later organize the average KFlops results into an array
17:26:35  elliott, and compare yourself to ais523. Who of you is least likely to shout? Or get visibly angry?
17:26:41  Vorpal: do you realise that for a very long time, the vast majority of immaturity in this channel has come from you saying stupid shit and then justifying it based on me being immature?
17:26:47  Vorpal: *Which of you
17:26:49  elliott: Oh?
17:26:52  I thought that it was me
17:26:53  elliott, I disagree.
17:26:55  ais523, ah indeed
17:27:09  selecting from a list is always which, regardless of what the list contents are
17:27:10  ais523: please tell vorpal to shut up, he doesn't listen to me...
17:27:20  http://pastebin.com/G6k41v7i
17:27:22  my current progress
17:27:29  ...
17:27:50  elliott, I listen to you when you say sensible things.
17:27:57  ais523: please tell elliott to try to be more balanced
17:27:59  elliott: Vorpal: this argument's unlikely to be productive in any case
17:28:05  ais523, indeed
17:28:09  Vorpal: so, question, "revoke your ops right now because you're an unbalanced individual" is sensible?
17:28:11  so there's not much point in continuing it
17:28:27  unless you just like arguments for the sake of arguing, I suppose
17:28:31  they can be fun to watch sometimes
17:29:33  ais523: I'm just trying to get the off-topic Minecraft stuff in another channel to free up #esoteric some more, and Vorpal is refusing to use it unless I revoke my op privileges, because I'm "unbalanced" and I will kickban him or something, despite the fact that fizzie is also an op. While undoubtedly he's going to come back with his own version of events in reply to you like it's some sort of challenge to get ais to take your side, I really just
17:29:33   want him to admit that he's a fuckface for saying that.
17:29:42  elliott, I think it is sensible to carefully suggest handing over that channel to fizzie. If that is what you meant.
17:30:22  Vorpal: do you not quite grasp how insulting what you said was?
17:30:31  or do you just not care?
17:30:50  elliott, perhaps we put different weights on the word "unbalanced"?
17:30:51  STOP.
17:31:05  elliott, I ask again to compare yourself to ais.
17:31:08  If you don't stop immediately i will quit this channel and stop giving elliott any reason to bother/troll/anger you
17:31:16  Should help
17:31:19  according to what he was saying
17:31:22  asiekierka: that's really just incentive for me to keep going, isn't it...
17:31:30  elliott, again: Compare yourself to ais523. Which of you is least likely to shout? Or get visibly angry?
17:31:31  I'm not trying to win anything, I just want an apology from Vorpal.
17:31:44  Vorpal: that I never get visibly angry is not really evidence of anything
17:31:46  at least, not on IRC
17:31:51  I do get angry from time ot time
17:31:57  *time to time
17:32:02  but mostly in RL
17:32:12  ais523, well, indeed, but the question is if you are in control of the anger or if you react like elliott.
17:32:14  sometimes I come on here, furious at events in RL, and state that I'm angry because people couldn't tell otherwise
17:32:27  (because when RL makes me angry, it isn't #esoteric's fault)
17:32:33  (well, probably)
17:32:38  ais523, even when you are angry, you do seem a rather calm.
17:32:43  that is my point
17:32:45  Vorpal: yes, I'm an unstable wreck of an individual who kickbans people based on random whims and then immediately deops everyone else so that nobody can undo my injustice, and I shouldn't be allowed in polite society.
17:32:48  same goes for fizzie
17:32:55  elliott - if you say you're so
17:32:56  you are
17:32:58  having just come above surface from a fucking year of people treating me like I'm insane:
17:33:00  Vorpal: FUCK YOU.
17:33:03  elliott, now that is a strawman.
17:33:04  Vorpal: looking calm and being calm are different things
17:33:08  You are on ignore, and are never coming off.
17:33:10  YAY
17:33:17  ELLIOTT TURNED ON MADNESS MODE
17:33:18  elliott, and I never said "wreck"
17:33:22  asiekierka: Also you.
17:33:25  YAY
17:33:27  Vorpal: that's unlikely to help...
17:33:33  ELLIOTT IS GOING MORE MADNESS MODE
17:33:34  I think you've been missing the point for the past 10 minutes
17:33:41  ais523, indeed. And I think this actually proved my point.
17:33:45  his reaction to this.
17:34:26  yes, annoyed at my suggestion: of course. But he overreacted wildly.
17:34:52  http://pastebin.com/aPTureza
17:34:55  i'm too tired to do any more
17:35:07  Vorpal - elliott behaves like me 3 years ago
17:35:09  read: when i was 10 or 11
17:35:14  remember me from back then?
17:35:16  i was an annoyance
17:35:57  asiekierka, well, to be honest, you still are annoying to some degree. Though quite a bit less than before.
17:36:05  Vorpal: yeah
17:36:09  see: 3 minutes ago
17:36:13  when i went "lol madness mode"
17:36:22  right
17:36:24  also my frequent pasting of things which are useless
17:36:30  like the benchmark status
17:37:10  ais523, and... not reading those comma :P
17:37:16  what else is there
17:37:26  yes, not reading fully before asking
17:37:29  also saying stupid things
17:37:39  (because of lack of knowledge mostly, but still)
17:37:51  did i miss anything?
17:40:06  well, that's all today iirc
17:40:14  yay
17:45:01  ineiros, you really need to do something about your connection
17:47:21 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:55:45  *chirp* *a* *dirp*
17:57:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: Elliott/Vorpal Fallout, Channel Dies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage but denies banning accusers. More at 11..
17:57:49 -!- oerjan has set topic: Elliott/Vorpal Fallout, Channel Dies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage but also denies banning accusers. More at 11..
17:57:49 -!- elliott has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:57:59  HEY
17:58:14  that makes me remember times
17:58:17  when i was editing the topic
17:58:18  SOMEONE IS _REALLY_ GRUMPY
17:58:21  and ehird kept changing it back
17:58:23  I am not grumpy?
17:58:40  ...why did you censor the topic then
17:59:12  Because it's only going to make things more off-topic and stupid?
17:59:19 -!- cheater- has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:59:21  anyone wants a free google adwords promotional coupon code
17:59:35  asiekierka: no thanks
18:00:07   SOMEONE IS _REALLY_ GRUMPY <-- that is an understatement :)
18:00:33  elliott: well you also removed the denial of your wheat-based parentage, so i'll assume that means you've finally admitted it
18:00:37  yes.
18:00:41  I am kin of Weetabix.
18:06:33  Wait, this is the year of Duke Nukem Forever's announced release.
18:06:49  So weird...
18:07:11  Phantom_Hoover, hah
18:07:30  Phantom_Hoover: yes, and last year we made first contact! oh wait...
18:08:29  well anyway it's better than back in '84 when we were under that oppressive dictatorship
18:08:43  oerjan, as in, "the people making it have stated in no uncertain terms that it is going to be released in the second quarter of the year"
18:09:36  the signs of the end times are here
18:11:58  Phantom_Hoover: and Perl 6 is basically complete too, it's usable right now
18:12:24  ais523: and duke nukem forever is written in it!
18:12:32  And it runs on HURD!
18:12:38  oh right, Hurd
18:12:39  ais523: that's why it's taken so long to release, they had to wait for the language to exist first
18:12:44  I knew I was missing one, just couldn't remember what it was
18:13:11  It's all formally verified with Epigram 2!
18:14:21  what would formally verifying a computer game even mean?
18:16:25  ais523: making sure it's FUN
18:16:27  with MATHEMATICS
18:16:33  anyone who disagrees is obviously irrational
18:16:36  it's been PROVEN!
18:17:50  Yeah, I didn't remove the "bad things might happen if you make it resizable" when I pushed the "handle resize events" change, since I'm not entirely sure it actually works.
18:18:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:18:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:19:50  i'm playing with DrScheme because i like colorful pictures
18:19:51  and
18:20:07  stepping through s-exps in runtime
18:20:09  and arrows
18:20:12  whee
18:26:56 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:27:21 -!- elliott has joined.
18:27:22 -!- j-invariant has joined.
18:29:13 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
18:29:22 -!- elliott has joined.
18:30:39  Sgeo: how did you find that i did stuff with factor, anyway?
18:30:51  back
18:32:14  elliott, how about "looking at your Github account"?
18:33:01  Oh, that would indeed work.
18:33:06  Black magicke.
18:33:30  My commit had a last-minute typo, hehe... quite embarrassing when slava told me it was wrong just from looking at it.
18:34:31  elliott: my gitorious login still has that cyclexa thing on it
18:34:39  together with intercal, and nethack-tas-tools
18:34:46  ais523: haha
18:34:56  ais523: btw, as far as i can tell, github's TOS was redone
18:35:00  and now is perfectly benign
18:35:02  as TOSes go
18:35:08  hmm, I'm reasonably active on both gitorious and patch-tag now
18:35:16  patch-tag? haha
18:35:21  but patch-tag is basically dead afaik
18:35:27  darcsden less so
18:35:48  who cares if it's basically dead, it hosts repos
18:36:05  I never really understood the repo-host-as-a-social-network thing
18:36:09  Sgeo either hates or loves darcsden because it's ran by the person who does atomo
18:36:16  ais523: github just uses the social language as marketing
18:36:22  ais523: it's really a "collaborative network"
18:36:33  activity on the site as a whole doesn't matter, even if you were the site's only user it wouldn't matter as long as you can push and other people can pull
18:36:40  ais523: the many-forks-that-get-merged-into-one model is good for a lot of projects
18:36:42  and you can add other people to push
18:36:48  ais523: and things like pull requests _are_ important for that
18:36:52  which plain git lacks
18:37:00  elliott: yes, but why can't people just register on the site to add one?
18:37:10  ais523: plenty of people just have github repos as a mirror of git
18:37:14  hmm, do these sites let you add a pull request from unrelated sites?
18:37:18  if not, they should
18:37:19  ais523: anyway, yes, it could do with more decentralisation, but that isn't much of a viable business model
18:37:22  and no, because there's no protocol for it
18:37:31  git://? http://?
18:37:37  ais523: you don't know what a pull request is
18:37:44  ais523: it only includes certain commits
18:37:55  i believe
18:37:57  make a branch, then, containing only those commits?
18:38:03  ais523: I'm not saying this is how it should be, just that github is more useful than plain git for a certain model of development
18:38:24  elliott: I agree that it might be, but I'm saying that the reasons why it is are easily genericisable
18:38:35  sure, but they haven't been :)
18:38:59  ais523: darcs solves this by using email
18:39:03  which works quite well
18:39:03  Phantom_Hoover, see /msg
18:39:19  elliott: do you have opinions on Google removing H.264 support from