00:01:36 Gregor: OKAY, I'm working on lance again, and making it use your far-saner store-info-in-instructions method. :P 00:06:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:10:43 Err, how can you die again? Out of bounds pointer, flag zeroing... anything else? 00:10:46 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:46 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:10:53 Nope, thats it. 00:10:54 *that's 00:20:54 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=a21e97b13671f40d14ad1fbfd92d9c8ae1d265d6&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709&t=30 00:20:58 What's that dot on the right 00:21:07 After the second and beyond time I play it 00:21:42 switch (p->progs[w][p->ips[w]]->op) { 00:21:44 DO I HAVE ENOUGH INDIRECTION YET 00:22:01 My dumb turtle won against stuff? 00:22:46 Oh, tripwire avoider, dies against non-decoy 00:23:22 ais523 won at lengths 29 and 30 though 00:24:23 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=044f70240a470b57c4dcbf5765f6ef0e1aebaf78&r=efe98166a86b1fa2c293110c5321b33e8bfc20ea&t=30 I don't get it 00:25:14 Oh, n/m, I get it 00:25:21 Kind of 00:25:59 Heh, I built me an ais-alike defense program :P 00:26:10 400MB? 00:26:16 -!- cheater- has joined. 00:26:18 Har-dee-har :P 00:27:24 ahahah 00:27:31 i just got a captcha with antique greek in it. 00:28:25 Gregor: 11.02.12:22:49:35 Damn it, I don't want to be a person who writes BFJ programs as long as defend13 X-P 00:28:36 I didn't write it, I GENERATED it. 00:28:47 (That's even worse!) 00:28:51 Gregor: ais523 GENERATED defend9 :D 00:28:54 and defend9.75 00:28:58 which is near the top of the hill 00:28:58 ho ho ho 00:29:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:29:07 Gregor: so have you implemented quintopia's almost-fixed-point scoring mechanism 00:29:16 Hmmmmmmmm? 00:29:19 (fixed-point except in case of cycles, which I've fixed) 00:29:21 Or he's fixed 00:29:23 One of them anyway :P 00:29:26 Gregor: Basically: 00:29:41 Gregor: score(p) := sum score(q) for all q that p beats, taking initially score(p) = points(p). 00:29:47 Gregor: It is, apparently, literally exactly that. 00:30:03 It reaches a fixed-point, astonishingly, unless you have a cycle, and both me and quintopia had an idea for handling cycles. 00:30:21 OK, so my system exactly, but you just iterate :P 00:30:27 Gregor: Err, no. 00:30:34 Gregor: You have all this concept of "worth" of programs and whatnot. 00:30:37 There's not a single division in this. 00:30:43 You literally sum the score of all the programs it beats to get its score. 00:30:44 Tonight, I watch Double Jeopardy. 00:30:55 elliott: All that does is normalize values, it's all the same. 00:31:01 Gregor: And it gave reasonable results like defend9.75 being at the top relative to the other top programs on the hill right now, which is correct: defend9.75 *beats* everything above it. 00:31:05 The only distinction is I don't penalize. 00:31:07 But not yet. 00:31:11 Gregor: ...Nor does this? 00:31:21 Oh, misread :P 00:31:22 Gregor: score(p) := sum score(q) for q in that p beats 00:31:35 And you start with score(p) = points(p), and make special arrangements for cycles. 00:31:36 So yeah, it's exactly my system plus iteration, but cycles are what's interesting. 00:31:43 Gregor: Well, we both had an idea for that. 00:31:52 I'm waiting :P 00:31:52 Mine was: If you ever get recursively asked for a program you've already considered, return 0. 00:32:06 His was: If the same scoreboard ever appears twice, average all the scoreboards between them and halt. 00:32:38 I'm sceptical of his -- I think that even a quick cycle between the top four programs will cause knock-on effects to the score of the programs below that might last a very long time before cycling, but he disagrees. 00:32:44 I was hoping he was coding it up :P 00:32:45 quintopia? 00:33:06 Gregor: Obviously this isn't exaaaactly a fixed-point because of that special case, but it gives you all the beneficial properties. 00:33:11 cheater-: I once got a CAPTCHA with Greek text in it. I went to the character map and selected all the Greek letters as much as I could tell, and it accepted that. 00:33:19 And is wonderfully simple and therefore immune to disagreement :P 00:33:19 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/eYEL 00:33:35 Gregor: Worst polyglot eve.r 00:33:35 *ever. 00:33:44 (Jesus christ at that program.) 00:33:56 elliott: Doing the proper polyglot A) is broken on egojoust and B) is a pain since we have no real comments. 00:33:58 Gregor: For bonus points you should have written the base 64 decoder in another language :P 00:34:13 Any other language would have needed parens somewhere ;) 00:34:24 BTW, FFLDG is going to take FOR EV ER 00:34:24 zzo38: i just created an ad-hoc transliteration. it was obvious that the greek part is the "unknown" part of the captcha. 00:35:22 It's also useless against turtles and other defenders. 00:35:24 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 34.7 00:35:28 ... :( 00:35:32 !bfjoust pendolino ->+++(>)*6->+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23(<(-)*30<(+)*30)*2(>)*9(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 00:35:40 cheater-: Yes, I realized that it is unknown part, too. But I did not use transliteration, I tried to enter the actual Greek letters (although it is possible I might have made a mistake since I am not Greek) 00:35:45 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 56.0 00:35:46 gregor: what's furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls? 00:36:03 cheater-: Pretty much a straight-up ripoff of ais-style defenders :P 00:36:04 zzo38: the greek alphabet is super-easy. 00:36:16 GreaseMonkey: ais-style defenders? what's that? 00:36:29 zzo38: greek is just like cyrillic. that makes it trivial. 00:36:45 cheater-: Well, yes, but there might have been some accent marks I got wrong due to distortion. 00:36:58 ok 00:37:00 Any other language would have needed parens somewhere ;) 00:37:03 NOT RUBY :awesome: 00:37:18 OK, not Perl's OO bastard child *shrugs* 00:38:21 Gregor: *not Perl's sort-of-Lisp's Smalltalk's bastard child 00:38:57 $d =~ tr/_:/\x2B\//; what's that? 00:38:59 for? 00:39:02 how can you say ruby is related to lisp, smalltalk, or perl? 00:39:13 it's like saying macdonald's is related to steaks. 00:39:29 Hah, me and defend9 both just wait for each other to do something forever :P 00:40:06 XD 00:44:25 !bfjoust pendolino ->+++(>)*5->->+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23(<(-)*30<(+)*30)*2(>)*9(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 00:44:33 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 57.7 00:46:47 -!- elliott_ has joined. 00:50:38 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:51:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:51:14 is fizzie around? 00:51:27 he always his 00:51:29 *is 00:51:38 he's omninooinreoktmoinertneroitnioenrtojiojoijojiojo always present 00:51:51 i need some data from him 00:52:10 to make sure my closed-form fixed-point scoring system works and does everything the current one does 00:52:48 oh shit i missed jeopardy while i was in the shower 00:52:56 OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 00:53:36 word is that watson destroyed them 00:57:05 quintopia: Maybe later tonight I can tell you the score? 00:58:13 zzo38: 'salright. my friends are telling me all about it 00:59:14 "So many idiots on every side. The downside of public access and pseudo-anonimity" --reddit commenter on Wikipedia's inclusionism/deletionism debacle, apparently not realising that it's the people who aren't anonymous that handle all the egotism... 00:59:22 In the Single Jeopardy round, there was some strange order in which the clues are selected, which is not how they are usually done in Jeopardy (but it is still allowed) 01:01:16 AGAIN Debian won't boot. 01:01:22 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:01:31 It's almost as if I'm running... the unstable version. 01:03:50 Why does Jeopardy have I'm a little teapot as its theme? 01:04:27 Sgeo: It doesn't, it is just a similar theme music. 01:04:47 Deewiant: grats on your victory btw 01:05:26 zzo38, lies! I want to believe that that's a lie1 01:05:30 i WANT TO BELIEVE! 01:05:57 Sgeo: OK believe what you want to believe 01:06:14 zzo38: i think watson always picks the least valuable question on the board 01:06:45 Sgeo: that's an insult to merv griffin! he wrote the theme himself! 01:06:47 The $800 were all picked last 01:07:00 you americans are weird. 01:07:03 also canadians 01:07:05 but mainly americans 01:07:15 also you chavs 01:07:46 yes. we are all chavs here in america. sorry britain. 01:08:14 i wasn't referring to any countries 01:08:22 i was referring to your club 01:08:29 "elliott and the chavs" 01:11:02 Deewiant: that is the most ridiculously complicated rusher to date :P 01:11:14 How soon until we can all have Watson in our phones? 01:11:14 yes, it's even more complicated than space_elevator 01:11:20 Sgeo: INORITE 01:12:38 What, pendolino? 01:12:46 I like how a rush is on the top, it's so noob :P 01:12:58 (Not pendolino itself, but the idea of a rusher being on top.) 01:15:09 i had actually considered writing a rusher that did that 01:15:21 didn't realize it'd work so well 01:16:51 quintopia: what does it do? 01:17:09 it rushes a bit, goes back and builds more decoys, then rushes some more 01:17:27 so basically, its a hybrid fast/slow rusher 01:17:40 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/SNPB 01:18:06 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 35.7 01:18:16 :( 01:18:29 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:19:19 A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: 01:19:22 (SQL query hidden) 01:19:25 from within function "MediaWikiBagOStuff::_doquery". MySQL returned error "1194: Table 'mw_objectcache' is marked as crashed and should be repaired (localhost)". 01:20:37 Oh wow, that was totally broken ... 01:23:07 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/dXVQ 01:23:30 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 28.6 01:24:04 Worse??? :( 01:24:17 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/hchJ 01:24:28 quintopia: haps sometimes 01:24:30 although that error is worrying 01:24:46 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 42.6 01:25:13 Better, but not better enough. 01:26:32 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:26:58 zzo38, what is leg? 01:29:44 -!- iconmaster has joined. 01:30:54 Hey, the Esolang wiki isn't working for me. Has it actually crashed? 01:31:18 Sgeo: Leg? What leg? 01:31:28 Are you talking about Jeopardy? 01:31:41 Yes 01:33:41 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/OXDW 01:34:15 iconmaster: Seemingly. 01:34:16 iconmaster: Seems that way. 01:34:20 iconmaster: Give it a day or two. 01:34:27 If it doesn't work by then we'll contact Graue. 01:34:34 (We're really terrified of Graue.) 01:34:41 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 40.4 01:34:46 WORSE? :( 01:34:54 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/hchJ 01:34:56 uh oh. OK, who ate Esolang?! 01:35:30 iconmaster: I think it probably not good to eat? 01:35:33 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 42.6 01:35:53 zzo38: Ya, kinda chewy. 01:37:06 I also like how the MediaWiki acsessor object is called 'MediaWikiBagOStuff'. 01:38:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:38:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:39:10 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/TebO 01:40:34 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 47.3 01:40:54 Gettin' farther 01:41:03 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: I hope wiki gets back up soon.). 01:46:25 Gregor: *further 01:46:29 Do you get the joke I made there 01:46:56 *deeper 01:47:50 Bleh, my strategy really can't win against maglev >_> 01:48:05 Gregor: FURry 01:48:07 fur-ther 01:48:08 get it now 01:48:22 Gregor: Just special-case maglev, it's what all the Qool Qids do. 01:54:20 someone ping me if fizzie arrives 01:56:19 quintopia: FIZZIE ARIVETH 01:57:00 fuck you. ping me if he SAYS SOMETHING HERE 02:05:25 That quintopia fellow wants me to ping him if fizzie says something in here. 02:09:15 lol, what do you do when you /know/ they're already on your flag, other than cry a lot X-D 02:10:31 Gregor: Go to your flag 02:10:33 Vibraterate 02:10:47 Naw, speedy3 never jumps off, best I can do is a tie... 02:10:50 Gregor: You may want to use a tripwire to figure out your opponent's cycle count and polarity. 02:11:07 Gregor: Then you can lock it in place. 02:11:23 I use a tripwire, the problem is I need some setup first due to my other strategy, and so it can beat my to the flag before I can even set the tripwire if it's fast. 02:11:25 e.g. speedy3. 02:11:26 Gregor: You could do what the Advanced(TM) programs do: go destroy your opponent's flag while returning to your own at regular intervals to boost it back up (knowing the opponent's polarity) and lock it for a bit. 02:11:31 Then you can WIN 02:11:38 Also, well, if that happens, shit sucks. 02:11:42 Ohhey, I can totally do that 8-D 02:11:46 Set up faster or just resign yourself to losing to those programs on shorter tape lengths. 02:11:55 Gregor: I think that's what definder2 does, so have fun :P 02:12:41 Gregor: But, er, without your tripwire, I dunno how you'll know your opponent's polarity. 02:12:51 So locking it in place and boosting it back up will be non-trivial. 02:12:59 Actually you shouldn't need to lock. 02:13:05 Just boost back up, go ahead, return quickly, etc. 02:14:13 Gregor: I eagerly await furry_furry_married_sex_between_two_christians_in_the_missionary_position_girls. 02:14:16 THE MOST ADVANCED OF ALL THE FF*G PROGRAMS 02:14:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:16:18 LOVE when I can make Chrome crash the living fuck out of my system. 02:17:46 Gregor: But, but, it's PER-PAGE PROCESS SECURITY. 02:17:51 (For a definition of PAGE equal to MORE THAN A PAGE.) 02:18:48 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:21:31 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/MjAB 02:21:34 PROBABLY worse. 02:21:54 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 35.1 02:22:01 Hahah 02:22:03 Much worse 02:22:08 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/TebO 02:22:30 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 47.3 02:28:46 Man, chevrolet_movie_theater will kick all your asses. 02:29:01 Also: Tomorrow: lance's completion. Guaranteed. 02:29:16 Mmm hmm. 02:30:22 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:33:10 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:36:55 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/cgbB 02:37:23 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 49.5 02:37:32 Up to third :) 02:40:03 so what are the odds he'll actually finish tomorrow? 02:40:32 What are the odds he continues his Funge-98 interpreter? 02:40:33 Zero. 02:40:38 hey gregor, since fizzie ain't about could you generate this table for me? 02:41:09 i have high hopes that chainlance will actually be completed tho. it seems p cool. 02:41:09 Huh? 02:41:51 i want the matrix from the scoreboard but with (i,j)=number of configurations in which i beats j 02:42:18 it would take ages for me to get all that data from egojsout 02:43:58 All sorts of strange effects can be created by changing the color spaces and then using another effect and changing back. 02:48:40 * Sgeo is again reminded of Mozilla's Ghostbusters worship 02:52:22 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 02:52:26 "Memory Use (No Extensions)—Winner: Firefox 3.6!" 02:52:28 lolwat 02:52:30 Sgeo: Say, did you happen to transfer yet? 02:52:36 No 02:53:28 Bah. 02:53:34 Education is wasted on you. 02:53:44 a lot of thigns are 02:54:23 pikhq, want to convince my dad that Farmingdale is horrible? 02:54:57 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/UTXJ 02:55:08 Sgeo: Why don't you? It is absolutely vital that you take an interest in your *own damned life*. 02:55:19 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 48.0 02:55:29 pikhq, because I tried and failed? 02:55:51 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/TebO 02:56:11 You mean you didn't pull up a bunch of associates' programs in CS that were pretty much all superior to your course of study? 02:56:14 Man, you suck. 02:56:15 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 47.3 02:56:26 Maybe you should just stay at Farmingdale. 02:58:32 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/QGaX 02:58:45 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 49.6 03:01:46 nice job sir 03:02:14 not as good as deewiant, who now has the most points by like 3 03:02:29 Javascript sounds like a fun language 03:02:45 you know what's fun 03:02:49 impromptu 03:02:56 someone buy me a macbook pro 03:03:31 Of course, I have to google Impromptu language... oh it is a language 03:03:49 Art... 03:08:46 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/aFNY 03:09:03 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 49.2 03:09:32 In spite of this being worse, I'm keeping it since my other one was broken :P 03:09:41 Ohwait ... THIS is broken too X_X 03:10:39 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/XIPI 03:11:11 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 50.2 03:11:23 Finally beat 50 again. 03:14:16 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/PQEW 03:14:29 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 45.8 03:14:38 Didn't think that'd help :P 03:14:44 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/XIPI 03:15:29 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 50.2 03:17:31 stop making such good warriors. that sort of behavior is bound to make me start playing again instead of studying 03:18:19 space_elevator is still ahead of it. 03:22:58 eh, space_elevator is obsolete. it's not the WAY OF THE FUTURE 03:26:31 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/ZSAP 03:26:51 There should be a Javascript MARS interpreter 03:26:56 Maybe I should make one 03:26:59 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 49.2 03:27:03 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/XIPI 03:27:22 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 50.2 03:36:16 Is Objective-J evil, by some measure? 03:36:21 I think I'd like to learn it 03:41:19 Probably. 03:45:54 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/EWJe 03:46:08 Might be worse, probably not much better. 03:46:19 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 45.5 03:46:25 Hyuk 03:46:27 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/XIPI 03:46:45 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 50.2 03:48:18 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/CDOd 03:48:21 Almost certainly worse. 03:48:47 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 44.6 03:48:50 Hyuk 03:48:52 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/XIPI 03:49:07 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 50.2 03:58:25 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/TiSJ 03:58:37 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 36.7 03:58:41 Wow, really 03:58:59 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/XIPI 03:59:23 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 50.2 04:10:45 Sgeo: Learn it if you want to learn it, then 04:10:57 -!- augur has joined. 04:12:17 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/BNJL 04:12:35 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 52.4 04:12:40 Helloooooooooo 04:13:09 DAMN YOU PENDOLINO 04:34:55 Might be an improvement ... or not: 04:35:07 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/gOBA 04:35:12 Goooo gOBA! 04:35:36 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 52.5 04:35:59 ... technically an improvement! X-P 04:37:56 MUST ... GET ... FIRST 04:38:03 LONG way to go though X_X 04:39:58 Gregor, rig EgoJoust 04:40:04 Nevar :P 04:40:05 ^^don't actually do that 04:47:54 lawl, my philip core is wrong. 04:48:31 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/GTKZ 04:48:34 Philip core fixed ... 04:48:51 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 55.6 04:48:58 SO 04:48:58 FREAKING 04:48:59 CLOSE 04:49:00 DAMN 04:49:04 PENDOLINO 04:49:12 Still, lawl, my philip core was busted :P 04:49:13 Pendolino? 04:49:34 And I still have no idea what a Philip is, except a kid when I was a kid who I thought needed more salt 04:53:33 Pendolino is the current #1. 04:53:45 And if I don't get #1 tonight, Deewiant will improve it beyond my grasp, losing me a chance. 04:54:14 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:54:22 Unless you shoot him. 04:56:39 2 | + + + + - - + + + + - 0 + + + + + + + + - - + + + + + + + - + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + | 57.2 | 22.1 | 2 | Deewiant_pendolino.bfjoust 04:56:39 6 | - + + + + + + + + + - + - + + - - + + + + + + + + - - + + + - - - + + + + + + + + + + + + + | 55.6 | 20.5 | 6 | Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls.bfjoust 04:56:40 Aaaah, "Echoes". 04:56:51 23 minutes of awesome. 05:03:02 I suppose it would be no good to attack Pendolino specifically without regard to general survivalness? 05:08:04 I beat the CRAP out of pendolino. 05:08:31 It only beats me in one configuration. 05:09:09 !bfjoust aspartame_philip < 05:09:16 !bfjoust mapping_turtle < 05:09:20 Score for Gregor_aspartame_philip: 0.0 05:09:53 Score for Gregor_mapping_turtle: 0.0 05:10:27 !bfjoust give_it_a_go +[>+] 05:10:43 Score for pikhq_give_it_a_go: 0.2 05:10:47 \o/ 05:11:03 I'm impressed. 05:11:50 At the suck, I presume. 05:13:13 There exists a Kool-Aid Man video game. 05:13:53 Oh yeah! 05:15:00 It occurs to me that there are probably lots of crappy ad games like that even today, except they're just flash games now 05:15:05 And not notable at all 05:15:15 Does the Dilberito game count as crappy? 05:17:39 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/GFYT 05:17:41 Probably worse. 05:17:48 Sgeo: Not a clue to what you refer. 05:18:12 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 28.5 05:18:18 lol 05:18:19 Impressive. 05:18:31 Is pikhq_give_it_a_go beating it now? :P 05:18:34 http://www.freegamearchive.com/game.php?id=6507 05:18:38 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/GTKZ 05:18:44 As I recall, I just said "probably worse" >_< 05:19:01 http://joking.narod.ru/64.htm 05:19:20 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 55.0 05:20:45 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/UbXj 05:20:48 Almost assuredly worse. 05:21:02 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 55.7 05:21:18 Mmmm, or a little bit better. 05:21:19 Interesting. 05:22:48 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/QYjD 05:22:53 I think this is actually better this time. 05:22:59 Mmmm, maybe not though. 05:23:13 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:23:22 Ohyeah, much worse. 05:23:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:23:33 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 54.6 05:23:40 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/UbXj 05:24:04 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 55.7 05:24:36 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/KbQG 05:24:43 If this is better, my whole strategy didn't work like I thought :P 05:25:06 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 46.7 05:25:13 Well, that's a "relief" 05:25:15 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/UbXj 05:25:29 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 55.7 05:26:04 LAST THING I PROMISE 05:26:08 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/OYbY 05:26:10 Should be worse. 05:27:06 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 55.7 05:27:12 lol 05:27:35 This new 55.7 is a slightly-higher 55.7 :P 05:30:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:32:07 -!- monodemono has joined. 05:32:22 -!- monodemono has left (?). 05:32:31 Gregor: Make it display more decimal places then? Otherwise how can I know? 05:32:40 By looking at the report. 05:32:45 Exactly how I knew. 05:37:30 My dad is yelling at my step-mom 05:37:36 Apparently, she was driving badly 05:40:46 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:43:00 Gregor: can you make that table thing? pleeeeeease? 05:46:56 05:49:21 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:55:22 quintopia: I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. 05:56:07 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/cSEQ 05:56:19 THIS IS THE FACE OF AN ADDICT 05:56:34 Gregor: a table like the one in the report, but instead of (i,j)=+,0,- have (i,j)=number of configurations in which i beats j 05:56:49 Oh 05:57:06 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 52.9 05:57:12 D'awwwwww 05:57:22 I really thought that might do better. 05:58:00 quintopia: I'll do that tomorrow if you remind me, it's just a bit more of a pain than I want to get to at 1:30AM when I REALLY ought to be asleep but am instead obsessive :P 05:58:11 I KNOW HOW THAT FEELS 05:58:22 and i should go get some caffeine 05:58:31 since i will be cramming all night 06:00:58 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls < 06:00:58 I'm shocked that strategy wasn't better ... 06:01:20 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 0.0 06:02:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:20:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:26:01 * Gregor adds a trail... 06:26:01 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/Dejf 06:26:30 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 58.9 06:26:36 WELL HALLO THAR 06:26:42 Victory be thine? 06:26:45 * Gregor adds more trails! 06:27:57 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/ILBB 06:28:20 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 58.9 06:28:34 * Gregor adds MORE trails! 06:29:23 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/bPJP 06:29:36 Apparently my conclusion that trails were a dead strategy was ... somewhat incorrect :P 06:29:47 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 59.0 06:30:37 Where else did I not add trails ... 06:31:35 !bfjoust furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls http://sprunge.us/FYSi 06:31:56 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls: 59.0 06:32:08 Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 06:32:11 It's good to be king. 06:32:17 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 06:36:25 Gregor, why is it a perl script? 06:36:46 Vorpal: It includes the source for the program I used to generate it. 06:36:50 ah 06:36:57 Gregor, so how does this manage so well? 06:37:00 !bfjoust 06:37:00 Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 06:37:19 Vorpal: It's a hybrid of virtually every strategy there is :P 06:37:44 Gregor, that isn't too helpful. How does it select which strategy to use? 06:37:55 all at once would be too slow 06:38:27 It's 2AM, I'm going to sleep, I'll describe it on the wiki tomorrow :P 06:38:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:38:41 Gregor, also.... interesting names here 06:38:48 WHY THANK YOU 8-D 06:39:08 Gregor: Even the +[>+] "strategy"? 06:39:21 pikhq: That's not a strategy. 06:39:36 Yes it is. It's a piss-poor one. 06:39:45 Though it seems < is worse. 06:40:02 pikhq, < is *not* a strategy :P 06:40:08 it is suicide 06:40:34 Vorpal: Suicide is a strategy. 06:40:46 Just the most efficiently bad one. 06:40:47 okay... 06:41:54 bbl, university 06:48:53 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 06:49:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:57:48 !bfjoust wireless_frownie (>)*7+<-<(+)*18<(-)*19<(-)*19<(+)*19<(-)*17<(-)*22(>)*9([[[[-[++[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(-)*26.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]>)*21 06:58:08 Score for quintopia_wireless_frownie: 42.6 06:58:21 hey, a slight improvement...lol 06:59:28 let's see if you're right about trails! 06:59:35 !bfjoust wireless_frownie (>)*7+<-<(+)*18<(-)*19<(-)*19<(+)*19<(-)*17<(-)*22(>)*9([[[[-[++[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(-)*26.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*21 06:59:45 Score for quintopia_wireless_frownie: 46.5 06:59:49 woo! 07:00:54 !bfjoust wireless (>)*8+<-<(+)*18<(-)*19(<(-)*33<(+)*33)*2<(-)*17(>)*9([[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]]->[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[-].[.++-------]]]]]]]+>)*10[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]] 07:01:00 HAVE TRAILS WIRELESS 07:01:19 Score for quintopia_wireless: 42.4 07:01:34 that was an unimprovement 07:01:46 !bfjoust wireless (>)*8+<-<(+)*18<(-)*19(<(-)*33<(+)*33)*2<(-)*17(>)*9([[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]]>[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[-].[.++-------]]]]]]]+>)*10[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]] 07:01:55 Score for quintopia_wireless: 43.9 07:02:11 !bfjoust wireless (>)*8+<-<(+)*18<(-)*19(<(-)*33<(+)*33)*2<(-)*17(>)*9([[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]]>[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[-].[.++-------]]]]]]]>)*10[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]] 07:02:21 Score for quintopia_wireless: 45.3 07:02:42 conclusion: the efficacy of trails is extremely strategy dependent 07:03:19 !bfjoust wireless (>)*8+<-<(+)*18<(-)*19(<(-)*23<(+)*23)*2<(-)*17(>)*9([[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]]>[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[-].[.++-------]]]]]]]>)*10[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]] 07:04:10 Score for quintopia_wireless: 46.3 07:04:24 smaller decoys on the other hand...ALWAYS FAVORABLE 07:04:41 !bfjoust wireless (>)*8+<-<(+)*18<(-)*19(<(-)*23<(+)*23)*2<(-)*29(>)*9([[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]]>[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[-].[.++-------]]]]]]]>)*10[[[[-[++[(+)*9.[.-].[.++-------]]]]]]] 07:04:59 Score for quintopia_wireless: 47.5 07:05:08 also favorable: bumping your own flag 07:14:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:23:56 -!- deadPrincess has joined. 07:25:20 -!- deadPrincess has quit (Client Quit). 07:27:20 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:29:09 -!- pingveno has joined. 07:41:47 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:03:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:25:13 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:37:32 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 08:37:39 -!- aloril has joined. 08:37:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 08:40:38 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:58:12 -!- Lymia has joined. 09:03:30 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:04:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:52:19 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:53:20 -!- cheater- has joined. 09:55:20 -!- mtve has joined. 10:02:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:02:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:18:53 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:18:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 11:39:30 -!- Tritonio has joined. 11:46:06 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:59:19 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:59:46 -!- Lymia has joined. 12:19:53 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:20:48 -!- cheater- has joined. 12:23:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:32:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:35:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 12:35:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:43:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:48:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:48:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:03:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:06:46 quintopia: HEY 13:06:57 You bumped me to second by modifying wireless_frownie >: ( 13:07:37 (And/or wireless) 13:11:01 !bfjoust evo-1 http://p.zem.fi/evo-1 13:11:03 This is probably just a direct ripoff of your furry_furry_leather_discipline with some random changes, and it doesn't even perform so well (at least with crank), but for the record... (feel free to wipe these things out if you don't want them contaminating the scoreboard) 13:12:00 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:12:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 13:12:27 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:12:38 fizzie: It's not parsing, apparently. 13:12:44 Deewiant: So it seems. 13:12:48 Very random changes :P 13:12:51 My bug, most likely. 13:12:55 Score for fizzie_evo-1: 0.0 13:13:28 They're random-but-structural, but I guess there could be a buggery. 13:15:31 (...(..{..)...}...) is my bet :P 13:15:40 That shouldn't happen. 13:15:44 It also works in egojsout. 13:15:59 Then (...(...{...{...}...}...)...) is my bet 13:16:25 That shouldn't happen either, but I guess it's always possible. 13:17:26 Sure would be nice to get a more verbose error message than just "failed to parse". 13:20:00 I'll try a marginally different version just for giggles. 13:20:06 !bfjoust evo_2 http://p.zem.fi/evo-2 13:20:16 Score for fizzie_evo_2: 0.0 13:20:18 Underscores seem to be the more common delimiter hereby. 13:20:29 Well, that's not surprising. 13:23:03 fizzie! 13:24:42 can you make me a table for the current hill where (i,j)=number of configurations in which i beat j? 13:25:27 Isn't that what the dpoints.png table is? Or do you mean a text version? 13:25:54 yes. text. 13:26:00 something i can input in matlab 13:26:23 I guess so; a moment. 13:28:19 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:28:20 -!- ais523_ has quit (Changing host). 13:28:20 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:28:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 13:28:37 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:28:43 flail 13:31:28 http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/dpoints.txt http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/proglist.txt 13:31:42 It's pretty horribly formatted from numpy.savetxt, but after loading to matlab it looks just fine. 13:31:51 Diagonal values are NaNs. 13:32:02 And proglist gives the row/column number → program mappings. 13:33:26 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:33:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 13:33:34 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:46:46 so how do i go from this to (i,j)=number of configurations in which i beat j. do i just add 21 to everything? 13:49:27 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:49:47 oh i see 13:49:50 add 42 13:49:57 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:50:56 Oh, right; that was the sum of duel points, which takes losses as -1s. 13:51:49 I'm not sure you can get exactly that value back from it, since win+win+loss+loss = tie+tie+tie+tie in the sum. 13:52:16 I can do another table with the "sum of positive points only" values. 13:52:39 okay. thanks. 13:54:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:54:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:55:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:56:54 http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/dppoints.txt (with a double-p) should be that, unless I miswrote something. 13:57:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:58:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:58:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:58:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 13:58:50 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:00:32 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:00:32 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 14:00:32 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:01:09 Let's try a generated Deewiant_pendolino mutation for a chance now; it's shorter, so maybe parse errors haven't crept in. 14:01:17 !bfjoust evo_3 http://p.zem.fi/evo-3 14:04:01 According to crank and a local hill-copy, it's pretty close to identical except it beats some elliott_awkwardly_long_name. 14:04:46 Score for fizzie_evo_3: 57.2 14:05:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:05:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:05:22 i think that works thanks 14:05:51 fizzie: After that first *19 everything is dead code 14:06:36 Deewiant: you're just upset that it beat pendolino 14:06:40 !bfjoust pendolino ->+++(>)*5->->+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23(<(-)*30<(+)*30)*2(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:06:50 Mhm, well, you can't expect my thingie to know about that. 14:06:52 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 56.0 14:07:09 fizzie: what sort of GA are you using? 14:07:20 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->->+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23(<(-)*30<(+)*30)*2(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:07:31 quintopia: It's mostly just a hack. 14:07:36 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 55.5 14:07:38 fizzie: crossover? 14:08:03 There's some crossover though only on the top-level; and some random mutation. 14:08:28 "top-level"? 14:08:37 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23(<(-)*30<(+)*30)*2(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:09:03 quintopia: So that loops and ()-reps count as a single indivisible element for the purposes of that. 14:09:03 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 55.7 14:09:48 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23(<(-)*30<(+)*30)*2-(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:10:01 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 56.0 14:10:07 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:10:16 Weird-ass changes 14:11:02 !bfjoust pendolino ->+++(>)*5->->+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:11:13 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 55.6 14:11:41 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:11:55 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 58.7 14:12:05 That's better 14:13:01 Even though the scoring function supposedly optimizes the same score, the latest-generation variants dropped down to the end of the list according to my dpoints.png-generating code. Weirdness. 14:13:33 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*2(-<)*2(<)*5(+)*29>(-)*30>(+)*30>(-)*30>(-)*23>(+)*23(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:13:40 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 30.4 14:14:27 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*28(>)*9(->[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:14:28 That's not better. 14:14:47 I thought it probably wouldn't be but wanted to be sure 14:14:54 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 51.4 14:15:04 !bfjoust evo_3 http://p.zem.fi/evo-3b 14:15:05 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*28(>)*9(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:15:11 That's what it spit out now, which is strange. 14:15:18 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 53.6 14:15:20 Score for fizzie_evo_3: 0.0 14:15:41 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:15:43 I think my crank isn't exactly egojoust-compatible. 14:15:57 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 58.1 14:16:18 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:16:27 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 58.0 14:16:41 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:16:50 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 58.2 14:17:18 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*2(-<)*2(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:17:32 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:33 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 58.0 14:17:35 I love how Deewiant's strategy is just "poke integers until victory" 14:17:38 Admittedly my strategy INVOLVES that. 14:17:39 But most of my improvements from last night were due to bugfixes :P 14:17:41 (e.g. my philip strategy lacking its steamroller core, or not having a tail) 14:17:45 fizzie: CHEATS 14:17:47 Hmmmm, fizzie: Do you distinguish * and %? 14:17:54 Yes, for the generated output. 14:18:01 My biggest improvement yesterday was a bugfix as well 14:18:12 Not running off the tape intentionally helps 14:18:13 From the evolver thingie, I mean. Crank doesn't when it's running those. 14:18:58 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<<<(-)*30>(+)*30>(-)*30>(+)*29(>)*6++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:19:13 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 47.1 14:19:16 * Gregor waits for Deewiant to finish adjusting integers until victory. 14:19:31 Most of the time here I've not only been adjusting integers :-P 14:19:58 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*30(>)*9++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:20:04 But I'll do it once just for you 14:20:08 X-D 14:20:09 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 57.7 14:20:16 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 14:20:20 Oh well 14:20:41 Mainly I can't counter until pendolino is stable enough that I can actually guess how I'll do against it :P 14:20:41 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 58.2 14:20:44 Gregor: All yours 14:21:14 Well ... I also can't counter until I'm not at work and don't have other things to do X-P 14:21:44 :-P 14:31:35 -!- katy has joined. 14:31:58 hi all 14:32:48 what is this room about? 14:33:33 Esoteric programming languages and esoteric topic in computing. 14:33:56 At present, mostly a particular competitive programming language (BF Joust) 14:34:12 yikes! 14:34:38 Yeah, we're a strange bunch :P 14:35:01 lol, takes all kinds to make this stuff happen 14:36:04 whoosh over my head... thanks tho. bye 14:36:44 -!- katy has left (?). 14:36:51 Hyuk 14:40:05 -!- augur has joined. 14:41:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:47:49 -!- Behold has joined. 14:48:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:51:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:05:40 should've told her it's about tantric sex therapy 15:05:59 You really have a way with the ladies, don't you 15:06:18 they're all mine 15:06:35 I suggest you don't tell them that 15:06:53 every time i do it they become even more mine. 15:07:32 cheater- just has poor grammar, he means they're "mines", and he's talking metaphorically. 15:07:42 Suffice it to say his love life blows up in his face a lot. 15:07:46 no i mean.. 15:07:56 they all play minecraft 15:08:03 they all be minin' 15:08:26 they all mine. See? 15:08:29 X-D 15:08:35 :D 15:12:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:13:02 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:17:08 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:27:33 APNIC down by about 0.2 today. 15:27:42 WTF shit did I almost get myself into? 15:27:48 And then failed to ever look at again? 15:28:06 "As you can see from the project page, I am the only active developer on this 15:28:07 project yet, so you would be number two. That's a high-risk investment of 15:28:07 your time. If the project takes off, you'll be in from the start. But the 15:28:07 risk that it doesn't take off is quite high." 15:29:35 Just from reading the email, it looks like the node.js idea 15:29:41 Except this wasn't node.js 15:29:58 !bfjoust pendolino ->---(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 15:30:09 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 57.8 15:30:35 !bfjoust pendolino ->+++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 15:30:40 3x/12 for China (and a /21 for Japan). On IPv6 front, a /32 to Japan. 15:30:45 http://jsext.sourceforge.net/ 15:30:48 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 57.8 15:31:04 !bfjoust pendolino ->--(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 15:31:13 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 57.9 15:31:45 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 15:31:58 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 58.1 15:32:43 !bfjoust pendolino ->--(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 15:32:43 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:32:50 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 57.9 15:33:04 !bfjoust pendolino ->---(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 15:33:15 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 57.7 15:33:30 !bfjoust pendolino ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[-([+{[(+)*8[-].[.+]]}])%3])*19 15:33:37 Score for Deewiant_pendolino: 58.2 15:36:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:45:39 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 15:49:47 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:58:07 HEY GREGOR 15:58:10 did you ever wonder 15:58:18 what would happen 15:58:25 IF THE UNIVERSE EXPLODED 15:58:43 if every warrior handed every other warrior a fraction of its score based on the number of times that warrior beat it 15:58:54 and if, in doing so, all the scores stayed the same 15:59:00 what the scoreboard would look like? 15:59:22 Does this come 'round to you reminding me to add the more specific point breakdown to the report? :P 15:59:22 well, here's how, based on a limited scoreboard from data fizzie gave me: http://sprunge.us/SGda 15:59:56 no, it's my way of telling you i worked out the fixed point scoring algorithm :P 16:00:07 Ahhhhhhhhhhhh 16:00:57 Well, lay it on us. 16:01:07 And then convince me, ais and elliott. 16:01:11 And maybe Deewiant 16:01:17 i just did lay it on you! 16:01:25 ot' 16:01:50 ... the algorithm ... 16:01:58 oh 16:02:25 well that above explains the process the algorithm produces the limit scoreboard of 16:02:34 the closed form algorithm is this: 16:02:58 construct the matrix P(i,j)=number of configurations in which i beats j 16:03:04 "that above"? What above? 16:03:21 the thing about each warrior handing a fraction of its points to the warriors that beat it 16:03:34 based on the number of times they beat it 16:03:49 But that's how it works already, and that's not fixed-point :P 16:04:03 Ohohohohohwait 16:04:04 this is though 16:04:09 let me finish 16:04:11 Well, OK, just gimme the algo 16:04:32 let n be the number of warriors, so P is nxn, yes? 16:04:44 normalize P as P/(42*n) 16:05:19 also, initially set P(i,i)=0 for all i 16:05:57 now, for i=1 to n, let P(i,i)=1-(sum of column i) 16:06:51 finally take the eigenvector of P corresponding to eigenvalue 1 (it should be the first/highest eigenvalue), make sure its entries are positive, and multiply by 100 to put it on a 100 scale 16:07:10 you'll find then, that if you multiply P by this vector, you get the same vector back 16:07:17 so this is the score 16:07:19 and that's it 16:08:53 alternately, you could repeatedly multiply the P so constructed by the vector of all 1's until it settles down to the same score 16:09:03 if you don't want to solve the closed form problem 16:14:45 -!- pumpkin has joined. 16:15:10 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 16:15:23 does it make sense what P actually is? 16:15:28 Yeah 16:15:30 -!- copumpki_ has joined. 16:15:49 I'm just wondering if this is getting to the point that it's too complicated for $RANDOM_PERSON_X to get ... maybe that's fine? 16:16:12 I WAS GOING FOR A FIXED POINT ALGORITHM THAT DID EVERYTHING THE CURRENT ONE DOES, NOT SOMETHING UNDERSTANDABLE 16:16:12 -!- copumpk__ has joined. 16:16:16 I guess even the current system isn't understood by most people :P 16:16:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:16:41 but anyone who has studied markov chains will understand it 16:18:50 the major difference from the current scoring system is that it emphasizes more how MUCH you beat your opponents more and how many opponents you beat less (and the quality of the opponents you beat by about the same amount) 16:19:09 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:19:48 -!- copumpki_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:20:46 -!- copumpk__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:21:46 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:24:03 -!- cheater- has joined. 16:28:29 Yuh 16:28:42 Gregor: why do you spend 66 cycles on your full tape clear lock? why not the full 256? 16:28:49 does it do something special at 66? 16:29:31 I'm spending 66 cycles at their end of the tape while they're doing whatever they want to to my decoy. 16:29:36 I spend 255 cycles on the decoy. 16:30:12 yes. why 66? 16:30:25 Because 33 is floor(100/3) :P 16:30:31 And it's a two-cycle clear :P 16:31:04 There's no real logic behind it except that it plus the time getting back and forth was sufficiently less than 128 that I didn't fear that they'd drop the decoy in the interim. 16:32:04 oh, i thought you were doing something special where 2 and 3 cycle clear in each polarity would both get locked for sufficiently long 16:32:36 did you try doing a 256 cycle full tape clear? 16:32:37 Nope, it was just bean counting. 16:32:55 Ohohohohowait, I think I see the confusion. 16:33:12 I spend 66 cycles at the other end of the tape each time I go over there between futzing with the decoy. 16:33:25 I actually go all the way 'round the 256 values, 33 at a time. 16:33:31 right right 16:33:49 did you try doing it where you spend 256 cycles going to the other end, clearing and coming back? 16:34:16 or uh 16:34:20 128 cycles i mean 16:34:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:34:26 no 16:34:28 256 16:34:29 lol 16:34:34 now i'm confusing myself 16:34:53 I'm not sure if I understand what you mean ... 16:34:58 Ohohoh 16:35:05 Optimize it for a two-cycle clear? 16:35:13 yes 16:35:23 No, I didn't. 16:35:32 because it looks like you don't have it optimized for anything :P 16:35:37 I don't. 16:36:04 -!- sftp has joined. 16:36:05 I don't actually detect the direction they're clearing or the speed, I Just set it to a prime number and futz with it often enough that they're unlikely to hit zero in any strategy. 16:36:43 you're very likely to cross zero though, which may let them escape 16:36:57 aka, start doing a different clear 16:37:06 that does bring it to zero while you're gone 16:37:08 I do, and those that don't have any antishudder protection walk right through me, yes. 16:37:11 -!- augur has joined. 16:37:17 Luckily most have antishudder protection, which I'm taking advantage of >: ) 16:37:47 a good anti shudder protection will get it out of phase so much that it still eventually breaks the lock 16:38:24 And yet, I was still beating most of them :P 16:38:33 for instance: [.-].[.++-------[...-]] 16:38:35 I admit freely that my locking is very simple, but it worked for me *shrugs* 16:39:20 how well does it work against careless clears? 16:39:40 not the lock i mean, the whole strategy 16:40:32 They usually cause me to switch to a philip, which does well against careless clears since it's just careless + small decoy avoidance + multi-decoy avoidance. 16:41:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:43:27 -!- augur_ has joined. 16:43:42 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 16:43:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:44:22 so did you like my rewrite of the BF Joust page? huh? 16:46:04 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:46:31 -!- augur has joined. 16:47:36 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:47:56 Having the current rules well described at the beginning is much better. 16:48:02 Having to read the history to know what the rules are was silly :P 16:55:43 alright, nap time. lemme know if anyone else likes the fixed point scoring alg :P 17:03:47 Gregor, seems like Deewiant beat you on bfjoust! 17:06:36 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 17:10:20 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:32:57 Vorpal: I'm aware :P 17:46:42 -!- augur_ has joined. 17:47:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:48:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:48:53 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/EhPH 17:49:12 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 50.3 17:49:29 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls < 17:49:36 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 0.0 17:50:11 Wait, forgot to get the breakdown X-P 17:50:13 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/EhPH 17:51:00 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 50.3 17:51:26 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls < 17:51:44 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 0.0 17:56:37 Heh, wireless_frownie tricked my tripwire :P 18:00:05 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/gThU 18:00:51 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 45.5 18:00:56 Yowza X-P 18:07:00 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/NdPg 18:07:46 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 48.9 18:07:49 Hm 18:07:54 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:12:22 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/ZYOU 18:13:07 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 51.2 18:14:15 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/SYGP 18:14:58 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 52.6 18:15:10 !bfjoust allegro ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*19 18:15:26 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 53.5 18:15:34 Graaaa 18:15:39 !bfjoust furry_furry_bondage_girls < 18:15:48 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_bondage_girls: 0.0 18:17:39 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/SYGP 18:18:15 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 50.9 18:19:10 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:22:42 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/LCcd 18:22:53 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:23:17 grr, elliott isn't here 18:23:48 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 47.6 18:23:50 ais523_: Comments on quintopia's fixed-point scoring algo? 18:23:55 !bfjoust allegro ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+][-[+]]])*19 18:23:56 -!- elliott has joined. 18:24:10 Gregor: I rather like the existing one, and haven't seen the new one 18:24:13 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 55.7 18:24:24 [18:48] grr, elliott isn't here 18:24:24 ais523_: It's basically the same, but fixed-point. 18:24:29 elliott: perfect timing! 18:24:37 ais523_: I support the new score system 18:24:39 well 18:24:40 if it's quintopia's 18:24:47 !bfjoust 18:24:47 Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 18:24:56 umm, anyone care to clarify 18:24:58 I logread in order 18:25:15 there was no context 18:25:24 !bfjoust furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls http://sprunge.us/CXRJ 18:25:27 Gregor: is it in use on the hill yet? 18:25:28 ais523_: what did you want me for then 18:25:40 ais523_: No, I wanted to make sure top contenders agree before I go effing things up. 18:25:40 I was attending a series of lectures today 18:25:46 and someone brought up a point I disagreed with 18:25:48 Gregor: Is it quintopia's? 18:26:05 elliott: Yes. 18:26:09 Gregor: What cycle-breaker? 18:26:21 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls: 49.5 18:26:25 which can most easily be answered by asking someone who's both rather younger than me, and who is decent at programming/computer science/that sort of thing 18:26:25 elliott: Just logread durf :P 18:26:32 Gregor: I'd rather you tell me 18:26:36 ais523_: go on 18:26:41 !bfjoust allegro ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[(+)*9[-]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-][-[+]]])*19 18:26:52 elliott: they claimed that nowadays, there was no expectation under young people that any data was unavailable 18:26:55 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 52.6 18:27:05 ais523_: hmm, that's a little vague 18:27:11 e.g. talking about young children confused as to why they couldn't see themselves on Google Street View 18:27:18 finally take the eigenvector of P corresponding to eigenvalue 1 (it should be the first/highest eigenvalue), make sure its entries are positive, and multiply by 100 to put it on a 100 scale // the "cycle-breaker" is MATH 18:27:38 Gregor: Uhh, wow. Lemme ping quintopia. 18:27:39 !bfjoust allegro ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+][-[+]]])*19 18:27:49 Perhaps it's the eigenvectorial equivalent to a cyclebreaker he mentioned. 18:27:49 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 55.8 18:28:01 it seems that this would most likely translate, in people slightly older, into a) a belief that copyright shouldn't exist, and b) a belief in a complete lack of privacy 18:28:06 and I'm wondering if those are actually the case 18:28:06 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:28:08 ais523_: well, privacy is rather dead among the DARN YOUNGSTERS nowadays 18:28:16 ais523_: just look at facebook, nobody cares about their personal information 18:28:17 * Gregor stops posting new FFNCG until Deewiant calms down :P 18:28:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:28:27 Gregor: That beats FFLDG in egojsout but not in egojoust 18:28:47 btw, I was thinking about fixed-point scoring last night, and came to the conclusion that the correct algorithm was "calculate wins+draws/2 for each pair of players, place in a matrix (i.e. all elements positive), take principle eigenvector" 18:29:02 which seems to be the same algo quintopia came up with 18:29:05 ais523_: as for copyright, I'm not sure; I don't get the feeling that any DARN KID would bother to obey it, after all piracy is rather common, but I don't know if they'll have an actual intellectual objection to it 18:29:09 rather than just simply not caring 18:29:26 I mean, more in the sense of not understanding why it should exist 18:29:35 or why anyone would come up with it in the first place 18:29:44 ais523_: the theory seems at least plausible, though of course generalising to "all youngsters" is incredibly impossible 18:29:49 Deewiant: Uhhh, no. 18:29:50 indeed 18:29:55 Deewiant: FFLDG beats it in EgoJSout. 18:30:02 what about your opinions personally? I know you disagree with me at least slightly on this 18:30:10 ais523_: I couldn't really /imagine/ a WHIPPERSNAPPER coming up with copyright, but then I can't really imagine them coming up with any laws at all 18:30:13 Gregor: Not here it doesn't 18:30:27 Deewiant: You probably have an old FFLDG in your buffer. 18:30:28 ais523_: I'm not a big fan of copyright, but I think privacy is an important right 18:30:31 although I'm not paranoid about my own data 18:30:40 the thing is, I think I'm already an old codger/traditionalist in this sense 18:31:00 elliott: hmm, OK; that's what I would have guessed, I think 18:31:01 but I wasn't sure 18:31:25 and your response to the alleged "problem" of people keeping algos, etc., secret and never disclosing them, is that it isn't actually a problem? 18:31:39 Gregor: Evidently... that's weird, did you update it recently? 18:31:44 ais523_: I'm not sure how that's related to copyright 18:31:46 I think that's the response I'd give to people who asked me, too 18:31:53 ais523_: People already reverse-engineer algorithms in closed-source software. 18:32:01 Gregor: Or ha, I know the reason 18:32:03 elliott: oh, the "justification" for copyright is that people would never produce anything copyable if they didn't have copyright to protect them 18:32:08 I made a typo in my !bfjoust 18:32:16 !bfjoust allegro ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:32:16 I'm not sure I agree with that justification at all 18:32:24 Deewiant: Blame the software on your own failure :P 18:32:25 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 58.9 18:32:29 There we go 18:32:57 ais523_: Right; I do disagree with that. In fact I think a business model based around information is even possible without copyright, just not in the existing form; I'm not sure what model would be viable, however 18:32:58 likewise, the idea behind patents is that they persuade people to disclose hidden details of an invention, in return for a temporary monopoly, and anyone can use them freely afterwards 18:33:04 !bfjoust allegro ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[(+)*9[-]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:33:15 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 58.8 18:33:20 which to me makes no sense, as the world blatantly doesn't work like that at the moment 18:33:28 ais523_: wrt algorithms, though, mathematicians have been publishing algorithms for public use since time began and I don't see much worry about people not disclosing their findings there 18:33:34 and I agree with you on that, I think; most likely it'd be a variant on the bounty method 18:33:39 !bfjoust allegro ->++(>)*5->+>+(>[(+)*9[-][.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:33:49 which some people already use, and which isn't perfect but does at least seem to be vaguely viable 18:34:04 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 58.7 18:34:11 ais523_: indeed -- or even as simple as (for a film) "give away the film for free, encourage derivative works (= free marketing), sell DVDs and merchandise" 18:34:15 ais523_: this worked for Sita Sings the Blues, at least 18:34:22 which has earned its maker a handy profit 18:34:34 well, what about other people selling merchandise too? 18:34:36 or would you enforce rules against that? 18:34:37 (it is possible that the novelty of releasing a film this way was part of the reason that it generated a lot of money, but I'm not so sure) 18:34:39 !bfjoust allegro ->++>>-->>>->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:34:41 (I don't think it's necessary) 18:34:56 ais523_: I don't think it's necessary either, brand names are a valuable thing 18:34:56 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 59.8 18:35:01 (I think trademark law is perfectly reasonable) 18:35:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:35:08 hmm, I suppose I should finish with this: what's your opinion of trademark law? I think it's a lot more justifiable than copyright/patents 18:35:13 ais523_: ninja'd 18:35:16 !bfjoust allegro ->++>>->+>>->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:35:20 indeed 18:35:27 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 60.0 18:35:29 I think it isn't perfectly reasonable atm, but only due to problems with some of the details 18:35:31 Bam! 18:35:33 rather than with the concept 18:35:42 D'oh, 59.98 18:35:52 hmm, what does it lose to? 18:36:01 ais523_: In practice I don't support an outright reveal of copyright because any sort of abrupt dismantling of social structures like that would be chaotic 18:36:13 ah, defend9.* 18:36:17 defend9_*, FFNCG, quapping_turtle, and 3pass 18:36:23 elliott: yep, doing it suddenly would make no sense 18:36:30 ais523_: The Pirate Party's position seems perfectly viable, though: keeping copyright around, but loosening the laws on non-profit derivative works, and making its duration much shorter 18:36:33 you'd do something like reduce term rates at the rate of 2 years per year 18:36:58 elliott: oh, I think their official position's entirely sane, yes 18:37:00 !bfjoust allegro ->++>->->+>+>->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:37:02 I think the Pirate Party's main plan is five-year commercial copyright, where commercial copyright = copyright except e.g. remixing not for profit is allowed 18:37:05 I think some of their members are rather more extreme than that 18:37:21 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 59.1 18:37:22 ais523_: that's Swedes for you >:D 18:37:37 !bfjoust allegro ->++>>-->>>->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:37:47 hmm, a sort of enforced CC-by-nc on everything is an interesting idea 18:38:11 although it'd disrupt most present commercial software models (also music and film, but not really most other things) 18:38:15 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 59.8 18:38:16 !bfjoust allegro ->++>>-->+>>->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:38:21 ais523_: that's practically how everything works already, take a look at YouTube 18:38:21 I'm far from convinced that'd be a bad thing, though 18:38:29 Remixes are ubiquitous 18:38:32 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 60.0 18:38:34 elliott: yep, indeed, that's why I don't think it's a bad thing 18:38:49 .99 O_o 18:38:50 Deewiant: 59.99 18:38:54 I'm not sure how a non-profit derivative work of closed-source software would work -- modifying the machine code? :) 18:39:02 elliott: it's been done 18:39:06 what about patching out DRM? 18:39:13 mm 18:39:13 !bfjoust allegro ->++>-->>+>>->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:39:16 people do that routinely and illegally nowadays 18:39:21 the only real change would be to make it not illegal 18:39:27 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 60.4 18:39:31 Ha 18:39:33 well, exactly; an unenforcable law that nobody obeys is a rather pointless thing 18:39:44 ais523_: the last I recalled you were basically in favour of copyright, has that changed or do I misremember? 18:40:02 elliott: I'm still in favour of it as a concept, I think 18:40:09 but current copyright laws are insane and make no sense 18:40:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:40:41 I'm beginning to believe that abolishing it altogether would be saner than the current situation, in the abstract; but I think somewhere in between is likely better still 18:41:19 hmm... my parents seem to believe that I'm entitled to make a profit from good ideas I have 18:41:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:41:40 and whether that's correct or not, spending years believing that because it's the only thing you're told leaves quite an impression on someone 18:41:55 !bfjoust allegro ->++>-->>+>>->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*16[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:42:32 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 61.4 18:42:47 Deewiant: are you just optimising for winning on greater tape length ranges now? 18:42:52 or trying to overfit to current programs? 18:43:16 ais523_: Nobody is /entitled/ to make a profit in any circumstance, and no system is going to be so perfect that luck doesn't overwhelm creativity w.r.t. actually economic or social uplift. 18:43:27 s/ly// 18:43:46 Gregor: I think you're highlighting the law in current copyright and patent laws 18:43:48 *flaw 18:44:02 More of the latter, I guess, although I try to justify every change I make more generally 18:44:07 No, I'm highlighting human nature. 18:44:10 Whatever system you place to try to encourage creativity, luck will always outstrip it. 18:44:22 Luck, and breast size. 18:44:28 !bfjoust allegro ->++>-->>+>>->+>+(>[(+)*16[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*16[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:44:40 This I expect to do worse 18:44:47 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 60.4 18:44:48 `addquote Whatever system you place to try to encourage creativity, luck will always outstrip it. Luck, and breast size. 18:44:52 Right 18:45:08 !bfjoust allegro ->++>-->>+>>->+>+(>[(+)*6[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*16[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:45:24 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 61.1 18:45:26 I don't think breast size is relevant at the very highest levels, because discrimination against women is even stronger there 18:45:39 !bfjoust allegro ->++>-->>+>>->+>+(>[(+)*9[-].[.+]])*2(+<)*4(+)*23<(-)*23<(-)*30<(+)*30<(-)*30<(+)*29(>)*9++(>[(+)*16[-].[.+]][-[+]])*19 18:45:46 Score for Deewiant_allegro: 61.4 18:45:47 I'll leave it at that 18:45:48 ais523_: I was actually covering popular music with that one :P 18:45:53 aha 18:46:08 Please hold while the gremlin who runs HackEgo cranks the gear that makes the mouse move cheese to calculate things. 18:46:29 307) Whatever system you place to try to encourage creativity, luck will always outstrip it. Luck, and breast size. 18:48:00 Also, *whoosh!* CAPTAIN DEPRESSO TO THE RESCUE 18:50:52 Gregor: I'm disappointed in your latest naming series, anyway 18:51:03 Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? :( 18:51:11 furry_furry_bondage_girls was an excellent name, but the various variations of it don't live up to its promise 18:51:13 because they don't scan well 18:51:28 Oh piff 18:51:32 is it targeting defend9.75, btw? or beating it by chance? 18:51:50 I added a little bit of targeting for it, then sort of gave up, but ended up getting better anyway. 18:52:24 (every time I type "targeting" I'm reminded of a bitter online flamewar about what the present participle of the verb "target" was in British English; quite a lot of people thought it was "targetting", but nobody could find any evidence) 18:52:27 And how does furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls not scan well X-P 18:53:00 How about if I cut off one "furry"? furry_leather_discipline_girls 18:53:21 (But then it's not furry_furry :( ) 18:53:54 it'd probably be better to change the naming scheme altogether 18:54:01 NEVAR 18:54:34 (Or rather, not until I substantially change the strategy) 18:55:08 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:55:12 btw, I'm wondering if your latest BF Joust naming scheme outranks porn sites yet on searches for the names for the programs 18:55:19 (probably only if you use the underscores) 18:55:33 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 18:55:39 In quotes of course? 18:56:15 you could try it all three ways 18:56:52 The only result for "furry furry bondage girls" (w/ quotes) is a channel log. 18:57:13 I'm not entirely sure what that says about rule 34 18:57:46 ais523_: it means that we're rapidly headed towards NSFW BF Joust-derived material 18:57:47 be afraid 18:57:48 be very afraid 18:58:18 * Gregor arranges his generator to put the code in the shape of ASCII furry hentai porn 18:58:22 surely the name itself is potentially non-worksafe? 18:58:33 depending on what your workplace is like? 18:58:45 ais523_: It's safe for work if you're a furry furry bondage girl. 18:59:22 "If you work at a sex shop ... is it still NSFW?" 18:59:27 Gregor: How much ram does EgoBot have? http://www.mooseyscountrygarden.com/cats-dogs/ram-merino.jpg 18:59:51 elliott: EgoBot has plenty, egojoust is run with -v 100240 18:59:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:59:57 ulimit -v 100240 that is 19:00:13 What's that measured in, kio? 19:00:25 Yeah 19:00:25 So just under 98 Mio. 19:00:37 (HAHA IT'S NOT THIEVERY DEEWIANT, I'M USING "ki") 19:00:53 Err, sorry, 102400 rather :P 19:00:57 "kibioctet" is a great word 19:00:57 100MiB 19:01:08 Gregor: *100 Mio 19:01:14 Only retards say "octet" 19:01:18 Units are always separated from their value by a space. 19:01:21 Welcome to 2011 19:01:22 Even if you are anti-retard. 19:01:56 Gregor: 64-bit system right? 19:02:02 Yes 19:02:30 elliott: It wouldn't be thievery if you also used "O" 19:02:39 Deewiant: Ugly. 19:02:45 Hence, thief. 19:02:55 So my ins_t structure is... 4 + 8 + 8 + 8 octets = 28 octets. 1 Mio = 1048576 o. So... 19:03:02 A 1 Mio program consisting entirely of isntructions takes up 28 Mio in RAM. 19:03:06 Maybe a bit more. 19:03:15 I'll just allocate two 32 Mio ins_t buffers, then :P 19:05:00 elliott: are you sure it's a 0x20 space? 19:05:09 I thought it was one of the other spaces used for that purpose 19:05:13 perhaps   19:05:14 ais523_: It's not a non-space, that's for sure 19:05:20 yep, there is meant to be something there 19:05:22 but I forget what 19:06:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:08:46 Hmm, storing things that will always be under like 100K in a size_t is pretty WASTEFUL 19:08:57 * elliott makes them unsigneds. 19:08:59 Yes, use 3-byte integers 19:09:09 Deewiant: GREAT IDEA 19:09:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:09:13 C BITVECTORS 19:09:13 DOIT NOW 19:09:20 Gregor: FUCK YEAHOP[ 19:09:27 BEST IODJEA CANT EVEN TYPOE 19:09:57 unsigned ip; 19:09:57 int tp; /* signed to allow for < at position 0 in step */ 19:09:59 WORST JUSTIFICATION EVER 19:10:04 Maybe I should just set ->overflowed :P 19:10:05 WP:MOSNUM strongly implies (but doesn't say outright) that it should be a non-breaking space 19:10:08 BIT SHIFT BIT SHIFT BIT SHIFT BITSHIFT BITSHIFT BITSH IF BITCH IF BITCH IF YOU DON'T SHIFT THOSE BITS NOW something something 19:10:09 thus ordinary width 19:10:23 ais523_: Wikipedia, the authority on style! 19:10:48 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:10:53 elliott: not /directly/, but 3/4 of the world's population who really care about these sort of things and have endless arguments about it end up taking it to Wikipedia 19:10:57 Deewiant: Man! Using unsigneds is WEIRD! 19:11:00 thus it nearly always ends up with the actual standard 19:11:05 I have an enum that I suspect is represented as int, not unsigned :P 19:11:06 Aren't all enums? 19:11:10 That's why it's WEIRD. 19:11:32 Unless you explicitly stick a negative number in there it doesn't make a difference 19:11:51 IT MAKES A MENTAL DIFFERENT 19:11:55 *DIFFERENCE 19:12:07 ah, it does say it outright, much later on 19:12:23 Hmm, maybe I should use "unsigned char" rather than "unsigned" for all these SMALL FIELDS. 19:12:31 Like the tape pointer :P 19:12:34 Except that'd have to be signed. 19:13:13 the page contains explanations like the degree symbol being ° rather than º or Ëš 19:13:25 ais523_: haha 19:13:27 I imagine it's easy to get wrong if you aren't a Unicode expert 19:14:28 also, apparently Ki, Mi, Gi are sufficiently unfamiliar that they shouldn't be used unless most of the sources on the topic use them, in quoting sources that use them, or in articles about the prefixes themselves 19:14:48 I suspect there was an edit war over that, although I'm not sure 19:15:28 every time it comes time to go to this class, i decide it's not worth it 19:15:33 boy am i lazy 19:15:39 bleh, Wikipedia suggests B for byte, and kB for kilobyte 19:15:45 and says that o for octet should only be used in French 19:15:50 but the class really is useless, when i could get all that information from the assigned readings 19:15:56 but, but kilobels! 19:16:20 also, apparently Ki, Mi, Gi are sufficiently unfamiliar that they shouldn't be used unless most of the sources on the topic use them, in quoting sources that use them, or in articles about the prefixes themselves 19:16:23 grr @ "Ki" 19:16:32 to hell with the IEC, that's not SI-consistent! 19:16:49 bleh, Wikipedia suggests B for byte, and kB for kilobyte 19:16:56 B /is/ correct for byte if you have to use something for byte 19:17:02 ugh @ "kB" though 19:17:04 that's just hideous 19:17:09 here's another fun one from the Wikipedia advice: liter/litre = L, milliliter/millilitre = ml 19:17:19 on the basis that l on its own looks too much like 1 19:17:28 that's "standard" 19:17:34 That's not a rational basis, but that is almost always how I see L and ml. 19:17:34 and as Wooble keeps pointing out, in SI B = bel 19:17:45 ais523_: the bit/byte confusion is the worst ever... ask anyone you know (who isn't a geek) how fast their internet connection is 19:17:47 "8 megabytes!" 19:17:53 "but I only get 1 megabyte tops..." 19:17:56 EVEN THOUGH EVERYONE ALWAYS USES dB! 19:18:10 all the standard school maths textbooks in the UK use a different font for l, when using it as an abbreviation for litres 19:18:25 ais523_: hmm, isn't dB the base unit? 19:18:26 so it looks very different from 1, and indeed very different from most of the rest of the book 19:18:27 like cm is 19:18:33 cm isn't, though 19:18:37 m is the base unit in SI 19:18:39 err 19:18:40 I mean kg 19:18:42 cm is the base unit of a different system, CGS 19:18:47 which is the base unit, because SI are stupids 19:18:52 err, yes 19:18:56 and which doesn't even have a constant value 19:19:13 ais523_: apparently it's kg because the other natural units that fall out of those are more useful with kg than g 19:19:18 which is just LAME 19:19:21 apparently, they found recently that the official kilogram was measurably lighter than all the backup kilograms 19:19:28 heh 19:19:34 ais523_: did the scales report the weight in kg? :D 19:19:37 and are panicking 19:19:43 "Let's weigh the kilogram. [...] BEEP! "0.999 kg"" 19:19:43 elliott: if they did, they were wrong 19:19:56 I think they were relative scales that checked the difference between the two 19:20:01 ais523_: hasn't there been a successful proposal to fix the definition? 19:20:08 I think they were relative scales that checked the difference between the two 19:20:10 and reported it in what 19:20:11 kilograms? :D 19:20:18 lol 19:20:19 percent, most likely 19:20:20 maybe they got one made that used pounds specially 19:20:25 just to be technically correct 19:20:29 Pounds are defined by kilograms. 19:20:39 Gregor: Only in the evil modern US of A. 19:20:49 we need to discover the graviton 19:20:53 (MODERN: an adjective never before applied to the USA.) 19:20:58 Gregor: no, they're defined in terms of pence 19:21:01 that would help with specifying kg 19:21:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CGKilogram.jpg Why is this a computer-generated image. 19:21:44 "A kilogram is defined as 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 the weight of your mother." 19:21:49 ^ someone submit that 19:21:49 quintopia: how, exactly? kilograms don't have much to do with gravity, and I don't think there are any fundamental constant weights to compare against that would let us use gravitational formulae to convert 19:22:00 elliott: to who, the SI? 19:22:02 ais523_: yes 19:22:03 :D 19:22:13 so, did someone make "the kilogram" out of uranium on accident? that would be a problem... 19:22:17 ais523_: there's been like a NERD COMPETITION (ok SCIENTIST COMPETITION) to come up with a definition of kg 19:22:21 to replace the crappy existing non-definition 19:22:22 Gregor: The description says why. 19:22:25 tep 19:22:27 *yep 19:22:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CGKilogram.jpg Why is this a computer-generated image. 19:22:34 Gregor: the light aimed at it would BASH IT 19:22:36 bash bits of metal off 19:22:38 and decrease the weight 19:22:40 ergo nobody can see it 19:22:51 apparently, two different suggestions have been made to calculate the kilogram from fundamental constants 19:23:11 wasn't there one involving fixing avogadro's constant? 19:23:15 that seems reasonable to me 19:23:15 but they actually give different masses, even taking experimental error into account 19:23:26 elliott: yep, the major issue of that is trying to count an exact number of atoms 19:23:28 ais523_: who cares, pick one now so we don't have to worry later :) 19:23:37 That's such a poor reason, instead of taking a picture of one of the many duplicates which is less well-protected, they generate an image which is less authentic because it's GENERATED ... 19:23:38 I fear trying to count well over 10^23 of /anything/ is a pretty tricky task 19:23:50 Gregor: untrue, it was generated to be exactly one kilogram! 19:23:55 ais523_: define it to be the mass that has a specific weight at a specific point where the measurement is always taken. define that weight absolutely in terms of graviton interaction. 19:24:04 elliott: How meaningful :P 19:24:08 elliott: anyway, someone suggested averaging them 19:24:10 quintopia: gravitons are your solution to everything! 19:24:12 ais523_: haha 19:24:18 which went and annoyed a lot of scientists 19:24:20 elliott: elliott asked 19:24:25 *ais523 19:24:30 don't mind me 19:24:30 ais523_: we need to define the mean of two definitions 19:24:31 more so as the suggestion's actually being taken seriously 19:24:32 to /truly/ average it 19:24:33 * quintopia goes back to sleep 19:24:48 arithmetic, geometric, or harmonic? 19:25:00 ais523_: harmonic, to promote harmony in the scientific community 19:25:12 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 19:26:03 "that is to say, the 25 milligram difference shows that the scientists over 212 years ago managed to make the mass of the Kilogram of the Archives equal that of a cubic decimeter of water at 4 °C to within the mass of a single excess grain of rice." 19:26:10 elliott: fun fact: the harmonic average of 1 and -1 is plus or minus infinity 19:26:15 Is there a reason why that's not the standard instead of the prototype kilogram? 19:26:35 Because a grain of rice is heavy. 19:26:43 Gregor: basing it on water? it's not just the temperature that matters, but also the pressure 19:26:44 ais523_: heh 19:26:57 and it turns out that you can't easily define pressure except in units that depend on kilograms 19:27:00 ais523_: Oh yeah, and pressure will ultimately have kg in it :P 19:27:09 so the issue is that it's a circular definition 19:27:17 lawl 19:27:25 Surely you can define a pure vacuum without requiring any particular measure ... a bit wonky and VERY hard to verify I suppose. 19:27:30 clearly we just need to use natural units 19:27:42 some of the saner people on Slashdot said "just take the triple point", although I fear the issue /there/ is that the volume of water is likely hard to measure while it's simultaneously solid, liquid, and gas 19:28:05 Gregor: it wouldn't be a pure vacuum if you put a cubic decimetre of water in it 19:28:29 unsigned line = 1, col = 0; 19:28:34 Deewiant: USEFUL ERROR MESSAGES OH YEAH 19:28:53 ais523_: Surely a cubic decimetER of water would remain liquid by its own gravitation? 19:29:12 decimetRE of watRE 19:29:13 Eh, I suppose not 19:29:16 elliott: Farenheit was originally defined as: 0°F is the freezing point of saturated salt water; 100°F is body temperature 19:29:19 Deewiant: lol 19:29:22 Gregor: not in a vacuum 19:29:22 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:29:29 ais523_: Farenheit is stoopid 19:29:35 Watre :D 19:29:36 liquid water can't exist in a vacuum, although both gaseous and solid water can 19:29:48 at sufficiently low pressures, it sublimes 19:29:50 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 19:30:05 Well, it doesn't have to be water, just something that's non-gaseous in a vacuum at a reasonable temperature. 19:30:21 Mercury? :) 19:32:10 Gregor: EgoBot doesn't support sending multiple lines to the channel, yah? 19:32:20 Right. 19:32:42 it DCCs them instead 19:32:49 Gregor: But, but, I want SO NICE error messages. 19:33:01 put them in breakdown, rather than the channel 19:33:04 elliott: I don't want EgoBot to spam the channel, so too bad. 19:33:04 With LITTLE ARROWS POINTING TO THE OFFENDING CHARACTER 19:33:11 ais523_: The breakdown won't even start being generated if your program is invalid :P 19:33:14 Gregor: Oh fine :P 19:33:24 Deewiant: ais523_: If you ever get unhelpful syntax errors, DOOOOOOOOON'T BLAME ME 19:33:39 elliott: what about putting the arrow inline, like Perl's regex error messages 19:33:57 ais523_: heh, like how? 19:34:00 abc --> d? 19:34:14 they go something like "Unexpected quantifier in regex, /this.*is.*a.?*<-- HERE regex/ 19:34:17 Use a unicode error :) 19:34:20 Erm 19:34:21 s/$/"/ 19:34:22 Unicode ARROW 19:34:39 <3 Unicode SO HARD YOU GUYS 19:34:39 $ perl -e '/?/' 19:34:39 Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE / at -e line 1. 19:34:53 Gregor: APPROVE 19:35:46 I'm wondering if the "marked by" changes if the regex actually contains <-- HERE naturally 19:36:00 it's the sort of thing Perl /would/ do 19:36:11 -!- aloril has joined. 19:36:44 $ perl -e '/? <-- HERE/' 19:36:44 Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE <-- HERE/ at -e line 1. 19:36:47 Not in that case, at least. 19:36:58 boring 19:37:40 lance.c:184: warning: ‘printf’ attribute directive ignored 19:37:45 And why is that? 19:37:58 I'm wondering if the "marked by" changes if the regex actually contains <-- HERE naturally 19:38:00 I was expecting that 19:38:05 why else would it point out how it's marked? 19:38:27 yep, I'm surprised and disappointed now 19:38:33 Oh. 19:38:35 It's format(printf, m, n). 19:39:12 ais523_: quick, what's the printf format for size_t again? :P 19:39:20 %zu 19:39:44 I'm not completely certain that ptrdiff_t would be %zd, although that would be logical 19:40:17 %td 19:40:23 z/t give the size 19:40:32 And they don't have to have the same size 19:40:47 Deewiant: hmm, was I wrong? 19:40:56 oh, for ptrdiff_t 19:41:07 it actually has a separate size letter? that's interesting 19:41:20 %zd would be ssize_t, then? 19:41:33 Yes, I suppose 19:41:45 ssize_t is a POSIX extension so the standard doesn't cover it :-P 19:42:01 indeed 19:42:04 I assumed ptrdiff_t was just a standard version 19:42:10 but you implied it was actually more complex than that 19:42:20 It's not, which is why ssize_t exists, AIUI 19:42:25 what's the thing you need a header for the format string for? 19:42:33 that defines a macro containing a string literal 19:42:36 Not that I know of any place where ptrdiff_t != ssize_t (assuming both exist) 19:42:41 int64_t, etc 19:42:44 ah yes 19:43:21 except in Microsoft Visual C++ (in C mode), where long long always == int64_t, and the format specifier for both is "%I64d" 19:43:36 heh 19:43:48 nice way to completely ignore C99, Microsoft! 19:44:01 -!- augur has joined. 19:44:02 hmm, this thing appears to be under the impression that ADVANCE == RETREAT 19:44:10 (the worst bit is, there's no reason why they couldn't support both the standard %lld and their nonstandard version, as capital letters in printf specifiers is undefined behaviour) 19:45:38 Deewiant: I think there was one Cray that has a 32-bit size_t and 32-bit most pointers, except char *s and void *s are 64 bits. I guess it's possible ptrdiff_t there could be 64 bits, though not necessarily, given that size_t is 32 bits too for some bug-compatibility reasons. 19:46:19 craystation 9k 19:47:15 32-bit char is not uncommon on DSPs 19:47:37 wow, looks like I just restarted agora 19:47:46 (for some very loose definition of restart) 19:47:48 hmm 19:47:55 perhaps ADVANCE _is_ RETREAT! 19:48:03 0 = 1; 19:48:07 ah, no, it's just parsing everything as < 19:48:13 which is... 4 19:48:19 "uh". 19:48:19 '<' = 4; 19:48:24 no wait, 3 19:48:30 --'<'; 19:48:33 Deewiant: wat 19:48:47 elliott: it's the computer definition, I think; people are trying to fix Agora by turning it off and on again 19:48:49 Just messing around 19:49:03 Deewiant: see Forte 19:49:11 ais523_: I mean my suggestion for a currency, which BobTHJ proto'd and Rouououojoujojo said e liked 19:49:16 which uses that sort of expression for everything 19:49:19 elliott: ah 19:49:20 which is close enough to restarting considering the state of the game as it is 19:49:40 ais523_: (the idea was to use voting power as a currency itself, since that's basically the only thing with true, permanent value in the game) 19:49:53 hadn't checked Agora for a while, it means logging into Yahoo! on this computer 19:50:05 "hadn't"? surely "haven't"? or did you just? 19:50:35 I did just 19:50:40 in response to your comment 19:50:46 ah 19:50:50 hmm, perhaps make_ins is broken 19:50:57 static inline ins_t make_ins(op_t op) { return (ins_t) { .op = op, .jump = 0, .repeat = 0, .iter = 0 }; } 19:50:59 and then replied in the pluperfect, to both state the situation honestly and to imply I'd just checked it 19:50:59 looks right to me 19:51:04 perhaps you can't inline a function like that for some insane reason 19:51:10 `addquote $ perl -e '/? <-- HERE/' Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE <-- HERE/ at -e line 1. 19:51:11 307) $ perl -e '/? <-- HERE/' Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE <-- HERE/ at -e line 1. 19:51:26 elliott: "static inline"? IIRC, there's a gcc C99 bug related to that 19:51:35 which is easy to fix but would break a bunch of existing code 19:51:43 so they're reluctant to fix it 19:51:50 ais523_: Agora activity summary: G.'s repeal-half-of-the-game proposal is succeeding, which is good; we want a currency and auctions; and my vote-currency idea seems popular enough. 19:51:53 also, argh 19:51:59 I'll try just static 19:52:05 I'm not sure what it is, though, and it's probably really subtle 19:52:10 nope, even non-static, non-inlined has the same issue 19:52:13 and unlikely to be causing your problem 19:52:19 grr, ninja'd with facts 19:52:21 < (jump=0, repeat=0, iter=0) 19:52:21 < (jump=0, repeat=0, iter=0) 19:52:21 < (jump=0, repeat=0, iter=0) 19:52:26 can't be uninitialised memory, then 19:52:28 because only the op is 4 19:52:40 OTOH, the program is "<>."; I'll try "><." 19:52:45 yep 19:52:47 that swaps it 19:52:51 how strange 19:53:00 must be a bug in parse(), then 19:54:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:54:25 how did you not notice that your program was swapping < and > earlier? 19:54:31 I'd think it would be a little obvious... 19:54:36 ais523_: it isn't 19:54:41 ais523_: also, this is a rewritten parser 19:54:50 also, rewritten interpreter, so actually nothing's left of the original :) 19:55:08 Somebody should write a strategy assistant as a plugin for EgoJSout :P 19:55:17 ais523_: the problem is that the first operation is being used for all the subsequenti nstructions 19:55:24 *subsequent instructions 19:55:25 which as you can see 19:55:26 case '+': *p++ = make_ins(DINK); break; 19:55:26 case '-': *p++ = make_ins(DONK); break; 19:55:36 hmm 19:55:37 oh 19:55:39 ohhh 19:55:42 switch (*s) { 19:55:45 } 19:55:45 parser->s++; 19:55:55 now it works :P 19:56:16 Gregor: "You lost. Try losing less." 19:56:53 elliott: "Your problem at cycle 3240 is that the enemy dropped your flag to zero. Try not letting them do that." 19:57:02 Gregor: :D 19:57:13 Gregor: "You ran off the end of the tape. Try not moving forward once you reach the last cell." 19:57:49 that's pretty generic advice 19:57:57 ais523_: NORLY? :P 19:58:01 knowing where the last cell is is the issue... 19:58:32 !bfjoust dumbtarded (>)*9((-)*128.>)*21 19:58:42 I have no idea why I felt like making that :P 19:58:47 Score for Gregor_dumbtarded: 9.2 19:58:54 Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 19:59:37 !bfjoust WINNER 19:59:37 Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 19:59:41 !bfjoust WINNER x 19:59:44 Gregor: Why .? 19:59:53 Oh, right, it'll suicide otherwise :-P 19:59:54 Deewiant: To avoid going off the end of the tape 19:59:55 :P 19:59:58 Score for elliott_WINNER: 3.0 20:00:06 WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:00:10 Well, thanks for pushing allegro above 62 :-P 20:00:17 Gregor: simple hint: make it (>)*8, then move the > at the end of the loop to the start 20:00:17 Piff 20:00:31 I should mention that in the wiki somewhere 20:00:32 ais523_ is our strategy guide 20:00:37 ais523_: Oh yes, that gives me a negligible chance of winning at length 30 instead of none :P 20:00:43 it's still rule of nine, just a neater way to write it that avoids special cases 20:01:22 !bfjoust dumbtarded (>)*8(>[(-)*120[[-]]])*21 20:01:31 Score for Gregor_dumbtarded: 23.6 20:01:34 YAY 20:02:06 ...what. 20:02:08 23.6 :D 20:02:27 that's not /good/ 20:02:28 Gregor: Can you move the hill to the fixed-point scoring system and then easily change it back? 20:03:02 elliott: Right now I can't, but in principle I should be able to, the only issue is that warriors will get removed by the other system for a while. 20:03:52 Gregor: Just back up everything :P 20:03:56 cp -R bfjoust bfjoust.bak 20:04:06 cp -a 20:04:17 And tell people not to submit any serious programs :P 20:04:26 'cuz that so often works. 20:04:41 What does. 20:04:43 (n't) 20:04:45 I also don't know how to implement calculating eigenvectors in C X-D 20:06:16 it's a pretty standard thing to want to do, it's probably in libraries 20:06:18 I don't see what's wrong with myyyy cycle-breaking method :P 20:06:32 elliott: I like quintopia's because it's so pure. 20:06:34 elliott: it isn't an eigenvector 20:06:40 eigenvectors get this correct by definition 20:06:41 ais523_: Libraries = hurr hurr use our specific data structure 20:06:42 hurr 20:06:51 as in, they're defined to be the fixed point of the scoring system 20:06:55 times a constant 20:06:58 Well, yeah. 20:07:08 the interesting thing is the algos for calculating them 20:07:28 WRITE THE SCORING SYSTEM IN MATHEMATICA 20:08:08 hmm, apparently most existing libraries for solving eigenproblems are written in Fortran 20:08:25 ais523_: The heavy numeric libraries are Fortran that people never use from Fortran. 20:08:31 you could possibly steal an implementation from GNU Octave; I'd be surprised if it couldn't do eigenvectors 20:08:38 LAPACK, etc. 20:08:39 and it's probably written in C 20:08:47 elliott: perhaps 20:09:05 Frankly I'd like to see lance get in there first since there's talk of effing with report and report is where this would be implemented. 20:09:09 hmm, I wonder if Wolfram Alpha does eigenvectors? 20:09:21 Gregor: The effing will be minor. 20:09:22 http://bytes.com/topic/c/answers/648589-how-compute-eigenvalues-eigenvectors-c-programming-language ;; USENET WISDOM 20:09:25 "surely you could find the accompanying source on the net... I found it 20:09:25 on EMULE P2p..." 20:09:36 ais523_: It does 20:09:45 elliott: what, did the answer just provide the binaries? 20:09:45 Gregor: just use W|A! 20:09:50 ais523_: heh 20:10:10 that snippet doesn't really make sense otherwise 20:10:24 ais523_: yes it does 20:10:27 source = the book it's from 20:10:40 ah, I see 20:10:44 wrong homonym 20:11:06 "Suggestion: 20:11:06 Try this search on sourceforge: 20:11:06 (+matrix +complex eigenvalue eigenvector eigenvalues eigenvectors) AND 20:11:20 people /search/ sourceforge? 20:13:01 "Nowadays, the state of the art in dense-matrix eigensolvers is usually 20:13:01 considered to be LAPACK (the successor to LINPACK and EISPACK)." 20:13:04 so, just use LAPACK :P 20:13:14 Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAPACK ENJOY 20:13:30 I am not using LAPLACK for fucking SCOREBOARD CALCULATION 20:13:34 [[A LAPACK subroutine name is in the form pmmaaa, where: 20:13:34 p is a one-letter code denoting the type of numerical constants used. S, D stand for real floating point arithmetic respectively in single and double precision, while C and Z stand for complex arithmetic with respectively single and double precision. The newer version LAPACK95 use generic subroutines in order to overcome the need to explicitly specify the data type. 20:13:34 mm is a two-letter code denoting the kind of matrix expected by the algorithm. The codes for the different kind of matrices are reported below; the actual data are stored in a different format depending on the specific kind; e.g., when the code DI is given, the subroutine expects a vector of length n containing the elements on the diagonal, while when the code GE is given, the subroutine expects a array containing the entries of the matrix. 20:13:37 aaa is a one- to three-letter code describing the actual algorithm implemented in the subroutine, e.g. SV denotes a subroutine to solve linear system, while R denotes a rank-1 update.]] 20:13:40 Gregor: Enjoy! 20:13:49 Gregor: Also, you might have little choice, I think what quintopia's suggesting is non-trivial :P 20:14:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:14:21 elliott: it's actually pretty easy to do, but relatively hard to do efficiently 20:14:40 right 20:14:42 Gregor: You could probably segregate the LAPACK pain into one function :P 20:14:50 I think there's a relatively simple O(n^3) algo, perhaps it's even O(n^2) 20:15:03 elliott: One function and two hours of trying to get the MOFO thing compiled and running. 20:15:05 for what n? 20:15:10 Gregor: sudo aptitude install 20:15:30 Or even "clapack for C (especially useful if there is no Fortran compiler available, as it is already preprocessed with f2c)" :P 20:16:19 elliott: one side of the matrix (which has to be square) 20:16:39 ais523_: I meant, what does n equal for the scoreboard situation? 20:16:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:16:47 oh, number of programs 20:16:53 and I think it's O(n^3) 20:17:15 possibly O(n^4), I have difficulty working it out in my head, especially as I haven't had to calculate an eigenvector in about five years now 20:17:18 ais523_: then n is constant, 50 20:17:27 hmmm, ^3 might be feasible, ^4 not, then 20:17:32 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:17:33 yep, but that doesn't give a good indication of how long it would take 20:17:34 unless it's 6,250,000 times very quick 20:17:45 but that still seems impractical 20:17:54 after all, verifying a simple predicate on all 32-bit integers takes a few seconds at least 20:17:56 I doubt it's n^4 20:25:16 Is what O(n^4)? 20:25:56 Getting eigenvectors from a matrix 20:27:10 via the most naive method 20:28:47 wow, GNU C has constructors and destructors 20:30:49 indeed 20:31:02 so do most C impls, as nonstandard pragmas 20:31:05 atexit exists 20:31:18 and so impls can't resist letting people do the opposite 20:31:25 For atexit to be sufficient to support destructors, you still need constructors, but any ELF system has .init 20:31:38 Anyone planning to nest their BF Joust program more than 1,048,576 levels deep? 20:31:45 MAYBE 20:31:47 elliott: YES 20:31:51 nesting more than timeout makes no sense 20:31:55 ais523_: Does for ()! 20:31:55 as you could never reach the inside of the nest 20:31:57 Well, kinda. 20:32:00 elliott: In spite of the <1MB file size limit 20:32:08 elliott: I doubt it 20:32:18 Gregor: Actually it's 1 Mii exactly right now, where i = instruction. 20:32:39 I'm only gonna expand that, not shrink it, it's just like that because it's convenient for my parser :P 20:32:44 Actual limits should be done at a higher level. 20:33:08 ("(", ")", "{" and "}" count as instructions) 20:34:57 "Brain damage in football players may be hidden." ... by the fact that football players are otherwise indistinguishable from brain-damaged individuals. 20:34:57 -!- Behold has joined. 20:36:20 If you don't like LAPACK, you can always use lapack++; you get the best (or was that the worst?) parts of both LAPACK and C++. 20:36:33 I don't like C++ :P 20:37:37 Gregor: whoosh 20:37:39 "Brain damage in football players may be hidden." ... by the fact that football players are otherwise indistinguishable from brain-damaged individuals. 20:37:40 wat 20:38:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:38:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:39:59 elliott: Remember that these are American-football players. 20:42:14 Gregor: I meant, source? :P 20:42:23 elliott: Oh :P 20:42:31 (Association football players are hardly leading intellectuals either) 20:42:37 elliott: It was in this stupid email all Purdue students get every day X_X 20:42:43 (^^ Name courtesy of Wikipedia pedantry) 20:42:47 Gregor: Every...day? 20:42:52 Gregor: No unsubscribe link? :P 20:43:49 What's the best first language for someone who is not particularly likely to enter the field, or do much recreational programming? 20:44:04 Python? 20:44:09 I'm kind of thinking Pytho.. yeah 20:44:10 elliott: Oh, I guess it's just all Purdue employees, not students. 20:44:20 elliott: you know how in every organisation, there's someone who sends out lots of messages, all of which are useless? 20:44:20 elliott: But no, no unsubscribe link. 20:44:23 The unsubscribe link will just let the university to know the addres is valid, and then they start sending that email thrice a day. 20:44:44 Gregor: An unsubscribe link.\1? 20:44:49 here in the CS department, someone went and persuaded the mail server admins to block mail sent internally from it at the server, so they could honestly say they hadn't received it 20:44:57 ais523_: haha 20:45:29 fizzie: It's to my university address, they know it's valid :P 20:46:56 I know that the emails I get from the guild are HTML-only, filled with something like 6 or 7 different tracking mechanisms 20:47:06 the guild? 20:47:14 I asked them why they didn't send plaintext, and they said it's because the marketing people said more people read the HTML emails 20:47:15 You don't mean the web series, do you? 20:47:20 umm, no, student's union 20:47:25 Ah 20:47:32 it has a royal charter or something like that, so it's a guild rather than a union 20:47:35 and proud of the fact 20:48:06 ais523_: if G.'s proposal passes, you might want to reregister in Agora 20:48:33 I'm thinking that the reason the marketing people said that were a) you can't track whether someone reads a plaintext email anyway (nor HTML in sensible clients); b) the plaintext version is a link to an online version of the same email 20:48:40 so they can track you that way instead 20:48:43 (it's still HTML) 20:48:47 elliott: month timeout? 20:49:06 Our per-study-program student organizations are called "guilds" too. Or at least the CS one. They don't have any special reason, though. 20:49:07 ais523_: well, yes, I just meant that you'll want to want to register in Agora when the timeout expires 20:49:11 ais523_: especially if this currency thing gets in 20:49:27 I'll look at the rules 20:49:49 06:01:09 Let's try a generated Deewiant_pendolino mutation for a chance now; it's shorter, so maybe parse errors haven't crept in. 20:49:49 06:01:17 !bfjoust evo_3 http://p.zem.fi/evo-3 20:49:49 06:04:01 According to crank and a local hill-copy, it's pretty close to identical except it beats some elliott_awkwardly_long_name. 20:49:51 06:04:46 Score for fizzie_evo_3: 57.2 20:49:53 wow 20:49:55 not bad :P 20:50:13 06:05:51 fizzie: After that first *19 everything is dead code 20:50:13 06:06:36 Deewiant: you're just upset that it beat pendolino 20:50:14 :D 20:50:23 It didn't actually beat elliott_long_name with egojoust, sadly. 20:50:31 egojoust is borken 20:50:35 bork bork borken 20:50:47 AND YET WHERE IS THE FIX BAWK BAWK BAWK 20:51:00 Deewiant's own subsequent submissions were more impressive, though. 20:51:21 Gregor: BEING TYPED IN RIGHT AS YOU SPEAK 20:51:34 I am very annoyed that my awesomely complex metastrategy is defeated by Deewiant's rush :P 20:51:38 :-D 20:51:51 Gregor: how does it work again? I think I asked you earlier 20:51:57 You need a metametastrategy 20:52:03 ais523_: I put some small description on the wiki. 20:52:13 Which I almost spelled "weeki" for some reason. 20:52:15 DOES EVERYONE LIKE MY TEMPLATE 20:52:28 elliott: YA DER TEMPLATE IS DAH SEXENFEUGEL 20:52:37 grr, quintopia is violating style standards on [[BF Joust]] 20:52:53 Gregor: why would you switch to a philip strategy when you thought the opponent was already on your flag? 20:52:58 and capitalising the first letter in brainfuck 20:53:02 on the assumption that there are no large decoys? 20:53:02 * elliott rage 20:53:10 elliott: not at the start of the sentence? 20:53:14 ais523_: indeed 20:53:20 [[Possibly a better name than "Poke", which makes the purpose of the strategy more clear, is "Echolocation," since it locates an opponent on the tape in the same way that an ultrasonic ping from a bat lets it determine the distance to its enemy.]] 20:53:20 go fix the excessive italicising while you're at it 20:53:22 NPOV OR 20:53:29 (--quintopia, [[BF Joust strategies]]) 20:53:35 ais523_: In my experience my poke was usually fast enough that philip would be faster to get their flag down. 20:53:37 *POV 20:53:37 OR is allowed there 20:53:40 (NNPOV) 20:53:44 ais523_: OK, but NNPOV OR isn't :P 20:53:45 ais523_: Since I could /skip/ their big decoys. 20:53:54 POV, I'm not sure about, we don't have a ruling eiher way on that 20:53:55 To pre-empt any "you're just stealing from others" objections, I restarted the evolver from "first principles" (read: wiki "bfjoust strategies" examples), but it hasn't innovated anything especially good (yet). 20:54:14 Gregor: ah, on the basis that no fast rush uses a reverse decoy setup? 20:54:29 ais523_: Yeah ... which of course it could, but they don't :P 20:54:33 oh wow, the italicisation really is bad 20:54:41 any objections to me just reverting to the previous version? this is unreadable 20:54:51 (the previous version isn't very good, but it's better than this) 20:55:11 elliott: I like the new page organisation, but not the actual content 20:55:29 but I'm hardly wiki dictator, that's Graue's job 20:55:33 so it's nice to get more opinions 20:55:35 I prefer it as is. 20:55:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:55:43 It needs some polish, but is still better than it was. 20:55:56 it needs de-myspacification 20:56:10 I would prefer someone just reorganise the previous page rather than All Of This and NOTE THIS IMPORTANT NOTE 20:56:32 You're an American, you don't have an allergic reaction to bludgeoning-by-text. 20:56:34 :p 20:56:41 Gregor: hmm, your extremely complex metastrategy, what sort of extremely-conventional offset clear rush does it use after waiting 1000 cycles? 20:57:06 it can't be an extremely extremely conventional 2-cycler, or it wouldn't beat the majority of defence programs on long tapes 20:57:34 ais523_: ([(+)*32[-]]>+[(+)*32[-]]>-)*11 20:57:38 It is pretty damned conventional. 20:57:57 hmm, something's wrong here 20:58:06 which I should go analyse in more detail 20:58:19 Prediction: ais fixes a bug and hits 70 score 20:58:19 anal-lyse 20:58:25 Prediction: Yes. 20:58:45 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:02:01 I should have some sort of dead-code removal from my evolver-kludge (or alternatively just build in some bias for shortness), it keeps building more and more complicated programs, which probably don't make any sort of sense at all. 21:02:07 !bfjoust evo_4 http://p.zem.fi/evo-4 21:02:36 Score for fizzie_evo_4: 0.0 21:02:44 fizzie: >*9 followed by >*21 followed by dead code 21:03:05 (Alternatively I guess I could always just do what everyone else seems to be doing, i.e. think, but that doesn't sound very reasonable.) 21:03:45 My and your best scores prove that the more you rely on machines the worse you'll do and vice versa 21:04:23 Deewiant: LUDDITE 21:04:41 Quite 21:05:15 Real men just get onto the tape and toil with their bare hands. 21:05:27 Well, out of pure curiosity, let's have that initial bit as evo_4. 21:05:33 !bfjoust evo_4 (-->)*9([(-)*128.>]+>)*21 21:05:47 Score for fizzie_evo_4: 33.3 21:05:48 That at least shouldn't crash-and-burn. 21:06:07 That does better than my mind can do 21:06:26 Better than expected considering it looks like it runs off the end of the tape often :-P 21:06:31 fizzie: hmm, that's just a turtle that sets decoys 21:06:36 Although that looks like a pblished strategy 21:06:44 piblished. For pibs 21:06:48 I'm surprised it's doing that well given the amount of anti-turtleage around atm 21:07:10 oh, it also leaves a trail, although I'm not sure if that matters 21:07:30 lance.c:65: error: variably modified ‘tape’ at file scope 21:07:31 whut 21:07:49 cell_t tape[max_prog - 1]; 21:07:49 } match_t; 21:07:49 err, how did that happen :-D 21:08:01 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:08:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:09:10 * oerjan gasps for internet 21:09:26 The Internet is closed. Please go away. 21:09:46 -!- ais523__ has joined. 21:09:53 -!- ais523_ has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:09:55 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523_. 21:10:25 -!- cheater- has joined. 21:10:27 15:27:19 oerjan: Why are you not here now :P 21:10:40 BECAUSE THE HOUSE MAIN ROUTER DONE BROKEN 21:10:56 Who's broken? 21:11:11 ... 21:11:22 lance.c:75: error: variably modified ‘nest_stack’ at file scope 21:11:22 I wonder what on earth that /means/ 21:11:25 oerjan: hello 21:11:25 I SENSE AN EVIL LACK OF SYMPATHY 21:11:29 hi elliott 21:11:51 oerjan: stop losing internet like that 21:11:52 we need you 21:11:54 :P 21:11:56 i'll try :( 21:11:59 When I ran out of Internet access in the past, I'd go on Active Worlds 21:12:04 aww 21:12:11 it's ok, i would probably die after two hours of no internet 21:12:12 huh 21:12:20 oerjan: we've been on somewhat of a bf joust kick. 21:12:25 with no signs of stopping 21:12:31 elliott: one more day and i would have considered it 21:12:44 oerjan: what, spontaneously dying? 21:12:51 yes 21:12:53 oerjan, is your Internet access permanently fixed? 21:12:56 ah. 21:13:16 come to think of it, last time you could have just used the freenode webchat, sloppy! 21:13:21 Gregor: your program only beats defend9.75 because of egojoust limitations 21:13:22 elliott: ah yes. which reminds me that one of my last messages before i left was griping whether you actually would support my (({{}})*)* notation properly 21:13:22 * elliott swats oerjan [INSERT AMUSING ASCII DEPICTION] 21:13:29 oerjan: yes, I am 21:13:32 oerjan: egojsout also supports it 21:13:38 (Gregor's fancy debugger thing) 21:13:41 yay 21:13:50 * ais523_ catches elliott and oerjan in the same butterfly net -----------------\XXX/ 21:13:55 ais523_, what limitations? 21:14:05 oerjan: also we decided to unify * and %, but I'm reversing that decision because exponential programs could be useful, I guess 21:14:08 elliott: i'll assume you mean according to my "obvious" semantics :) 21:14:13 oerjan: yes :P 21:14:21 oerjan: technically Gregor counts up both ways, but he does it differently 21:14:23 Sgeo: it crashes if you repeat a long program containg loops several times 21:14:23 iirc 21:14:28 ask him :P 21:14:36 I wonder why Herobrine died 21:14:39 so I had to reduce a loop count I originally had at 125 to 9 21:14:41 (oerjan: don't logread from my links any more) 21:14:45 just to get it to run 21:14:51 I possibly won't bother putting it back up 21:14:54 elliott: um counting up both ways means having to modify the counter stack when you jump between left and right parts... 21:14:55 ais523_: "nice" 21:15:01 oerjan: Ask Gregor 21:15:08 it didn't matter against any programs that existed at the time 21:15:14 and that's true even with single ({})* 21:15:24 ins_t nest_stack[max_prog - 1]; 21:15:24 int nest_ptr; 21:15:24 } parser_state_t; 21:15:25 but it does now 21:15:30 lance.c:75: error: variably modified ‘nest_stack’ at file scope 21:15:36 oerjan: he does it some different way, as i said, ask him 21:15:41 (note: max_prog is const) 21:16:00 Sgeo: i assume relatively permanently, i just managed to plug in the new router that arrived in door-to-door mail today 21:16:12 oerjan, huzzah! 21:16:19 (Since when do I say huzzah?) 21:16:29 Sgeo: SINCE YOU BECAME A BEE 21:16:45 elliott: That doesn't work with a const, it has to be a #define or such 21:16:48 But I don't wanna go extinct! 21:16:58 -!- Behold has joined. 21:17:32 Deewiant: but, but, it's static const! 21:17:36 and with a literal initialiser 21:17:42 elliott: And it's C 21:17:47 STUPID C 21:18:09 anyway, it did highlight a bug in defend9.75 too, which is trivially fixable 21:18:18 (oerjan: don't logread from my links any more) <-- what? :( 21:18:33 oerjan: Herobrine pinged out and for some reason didn't recover 21:18:40 despite recovering successfully from the same only hours before 21:18:43 it didn't even log itself dying 21:18:45 note: on work computers, always remember to go to pastie.org, not pastie.com 21:18:47 I haven't investigated yet 21:18:55 ais523_, I'm afraid to ask 21:19:02 ais523_: "The Leading Nipple Covers Site on the Net"... err, wow. 21:19:12 "can u watch tv shows on this thing? 21:19:12 jewels 21:19:12 hello? srry im new in this 21:19:19 What on earth is this X-D 21:20:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:20:16 is there a way to jump to a line in emacs without using annoying prefix arguments? 21:20:25 Heh. Reminds me of whitehouse.gov(SFW)/whitehouse.com(NSFW). 21:20:30 elliott: M-g M-g 21:20:35 then enter the line number 21:20:36 elliott: Install vimpulse 21:20:38 elliott: that ping out was only today was it? so i can still look at earlier days? 21:21:00 Ilari: it hasn't happened to me, but python.org(SFW)/python.com(NSFW) has caught out some of my friends 21:21:04 oerjan: it was quite a while ago 21:21:07 oerjan: er, a few days 21:21:18 oerjan: last logged date is the 14th and it's missing most of the talk on that day 21:21:18 elliott: oh. well i guess it will be obvious when the logs end. 21:21:20 oerjan: the 13th is OK though 21:21:24 someone here with adblock, what's the syntax for raw links in pastie.org? 21:21:30 ais523_: with adblock? 21:21:36 why can't someone without adblock answer? 21:21:41 pastie here is currently trying and failing to load an advert, and the raw link isn't loading because it's later on the page than the advert is 21:21:41 ais523_: I highly suggest you do not use pastie, however 21:21:44 they deleted all my pastes ages back 21:21:49 without ever deleting any before 21:21:52 it's only meant to be temporary 21:21:52 or saying they'd delete any 21:21:55 bad mojo 21:21:58 I just want to feed a program to egobot 21:22:04 ais523_: there are no ads on pastie. oh, there's one, it seems. 21:22:06 and this isn't my computer 21:22:09 a really really tiny one, and just for their web host 21:22:21 ais523_: I'll check, though 21:22:25 and yet it's preventing me viewing the raw link, without guessing the syntax 21:22:32 I miss pastebin.ca 21:22:40 ais523_: http://pastie.org/pastes/1572313/text 21:22:46 ais523_: found your paste :P 21:22:51 ah, it loaded eventually, after about a minute 21:22:52 ais523_: also, why can't you use sprunge? 21:22:58 !bfjoust defend9.75 http://pastie.org/pastes/1572313/text 21:23:06 not my computer 21:23:08 aha! admission! 21:23:10 ais523_: and? 21:23:11 I KNEW IT 21:23:22 it means I can't expect to have my usual software installed 21:23:22 ais523_: does it not have curl? 21:23:27 no, but you can always check 21:23:32 curl ships with every stock Linux distro 21:23:41 so does bash 21:23:53 ais523_: err, that machine doesn't have bash? 21:24:06 I doubt a Linux machine without a bash-similar shell could even run 21:24:07 yes, but not by default 21:24:15 how's that relevant? 21:24:18 hmm, seems it does have curl 21:24:40 elliott: if you try to chsh bash, it tells you not to try because it causes logins to fail 21:24:50 ais523_: what distro? 21:24:51 CentOS? 21:24:54 yep 21:24:55 what default shell? tcsh? 21:24:58 yep 21:24:59 Score for ais523__defend9_75: 0.3 21:25:04 ais523_: meh, that just means it has login scripts written in tcsh 21:25:08 err what? 21:25:11 ais523_: ? 21:25:13 oh 21:25:13 lol 21:25:14 wtf 21:25:15 ais523_: aha 21:25:17 ais523_: pastie uses html 21:25:18 for its raw pages 21:25:20 I forgot 21:25:26 yep, same thing that caught out impomatic 21:25:31 ais523_: tl;dr sprunge. It's the only pastebin that you can trust to not do absolutely idiotic crap. 21:25:33 :P 21:25:43 ais523_: hmm, I should put up an html form pointed at sprunge.us somewhere 21:25:46 so it can be used from anywhere 21:25:50 larger question: how does it get any points at all when the first character is < 21:25:55 elliott: don't, it'd just be spammed 21:25:57 or make it private 21:26:06 i.e. password or something 21:26:06 ais523_: err, how would it be spammed? 21:26:09 I'd only link it from here 21:26:11 then tell everyone you know the password 21:26:13 and I doubt spambots will look at our logs 21:26:22 I think they would, they look at everything 21:26:33 ais523_: I'd make it require JS, then 21:26:35 for antispam 21:27:04 18:24:24 what does (a{b}c{d}e)%2 expand to? 21:27:05 18:24:35 aabccdee 21:27:12 that's not _my_ interpretation 21:27:26 mine would be aabcdecabcdee 21:27:54 oerjan: we've decided that multiple {}s in one % is ridiculous 21:27:57 although maybe yours fits better into your implementation, mine would require a different system that keeps much more information on the stacks 21:27:58 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 21:28:03 !bfjoust defend9.75 http://sprunge.us/cJII 21:28:06 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_. 21:28:09 oerjan: but we've also decided that (x(a{b{c}d}e)%my)%n is OK 21:28:14 the innermost {} associates with the outermost ()% 21:28:31 note: this is slightly insane, but used in the preferred version of a recent good contester 21:28:34 (one of Gregor's philip programs) 21:28:37 elliott: yeah that's my basic (({{}})) idea 21:28:42 oerjan: you don't follow the hill itself right? 21:28:56 if you do, uh, everything's been shaken up, we have a 30 Kio program that ruled for ages 21:28:58 *kio 21:29:01 space_elevator 21:29:06 hybrid attack/defence, first of its kind 21:29:15 now the hill is populated with Gregor's 21:29:15 3 6 53.32 20.08 Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls.bfjoust 21:29:17 5 7 48.46 18.63 Gregor_furry_furry_nipple_clamp_girls.bfjoust 21:29:17 elliott: however you said something about (({})*)%, which in my view is almost the same as that multiple {}'s thing 21:29:18 "ages" a couple of days? :-P 21:29:22 with two of Deewiant's rushes and... some other program, at the top 21:29:27 (dunno what allegro does) 21:29:31 oerjan: that's disallowed 21:29:36 the only difference is that there aren't several different "centers" 21:29:42 elliott: it's just a rush, enhanced with most of the things that make rushes better 21:29:47 right 21:29:53 elliott: yeah that too would require much more stack information 21:29:59 so basically, dumb rushes are beating highly advanced partially-computer-generated programs. 21:30:02 HOORAY 21:30:02 Score for ais523_defend9_75: 42.6 21:30:27 (which means i have a sort of idea how it _could_ be done. i vaguely recall Icon uses its stack in a similarly weird manner 21:30:30 ) 21:30:57 -!- cheater- has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:31:01 ais523_: hmm, it sunk? 21:31:16 quick, someone push good_vibrations off 21:31:22 (allowing programs lower in the stack to run while the stack below is still filled, but any new recursion is put on top of the stack) 21:31:22 I don't think so, maybe it stayed constant 21:31:28 aww, interior_crocodile_alligator sunk a lot 21:31:36 ais523_: it was 43 before 21:31:40 on the report.txt that I had loaded 21:31:41 I think allegro just uses different clears and more early decoys 21:31:46 Compared to pendolino 21:31:50 but then, EgoBot rounds 21:31:50 perhaps it loses on one more cycle length to a fastish defend, then 21:31:53 changes xx.xx into xx.x 21:31:55 for no apparent reaso 21:31:56 *reason 21:32:13 It's faster and shouldn't die to vibrators at least as easily 21:32:25 oerjan: you don't follow the hill itself right? <-- no, i don't have much understanding of the grits of the actual _game_ :D 21:34:03 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 21:34:37 haha, I fixed the bug in one place but not another 21:36:37 Gregor: (...{ goes up, and *leaves it on the stack*. 21:36:53 once again, i said _not_ to leave it on the stack then. 21:37:05 er wait 21:37:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:37:18 when finishing the going up, of course 21:37:22 elliott: please finish lance so I can get defend9.75 to beat all the furry furry girls 21:37:36 ais523_: I'm workin' on it 21:37:38 it's close atm, having only narrow losses 21:37:48 oerjan: really? 21:37:56 then Gregor does the right thing, I guess 21:38:00 oerjan: Gregor doesn't actually use a stack 21:38:00 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:38:03 his counter is kept in the ( instruction 21:38:11 but loses on long tapes due to me needing to cut loops short in order to avoid crashing egojoust 21:38:20 ais523_: just do (x)*n(x)*m 21:38:23 elliott: what _do_ you interpret (a(b{c{d}e}f)%m g)%n as? 21:38:29 as ugly as that is 21:38:38 elliott: yeah that's also possible 21:38:42 elliott: I don't think it'd help 21:38:48 oerjan: err, I can't expand it off the top of my head, but the outer {} is bound to the inner ()%, and the inner {} is bound to the outer ()%, is the egojsout interpretation 21:39:03 there's a threshold betweens "runs quickly" and "doesn't run at all", and I fear it's the point at which egojoust runs out of memory for the expanded program 21:39:13 in which case no amount of synonyming would help 21:40:09 elliott: the thing is that the inner { needs to reach the stack element the outer ( put there, which is akward if the outer { doesn't pop _its_ stack element 21:40:38 *awkward 21:40:38 oerjan: well i dunno 21:41:02 although you could probably keep track of it still. in fact that multiple side-by-side {} would probably require it. 21:41:37 oerjan: (a(b{c{d}e}f)%2g)%2 = (abbc{d}effg)%2 = abbcabbcdeffgeffg 21:41:49 op_chars[parser->dest[parser->nest_stack[parser->nest_ptr]].op], 21:42:21 ais523_: yeah that should be correct 21:43:17 -!- iconmaster has joined. 21:43:51 elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/Code/lance$ ./lance '[' '.' 21:43:52 Syntax error: Unmatched [ (on line 1, at column 2) 21:44:00 Column 2? 21:44:00 ugh, I had better store the original line/column pair in the nesting structure 21:44:05 Deewiant: = EOF 21:44:13 unclosed X gets error at end of file 21:44:37 !bfjoust kill_self [+] 21:44:55 iconmaster: that's not a fast way to commit suicide 21:45:11 Score for iconmaster_kill_self: 13.6 21:45:30 at least if my polarity is + it is 21:45:37 In no case is it. 21:45:48 Well < is faster 21:45:52 It's ~256 cycles either way 21:46:07 !bfjoust slowly_kill_self [-(.)*100] 21:46:35 Score for Gregor_slowly_kill_self: 9.0 21:47:07 !bfjoust fastfail < 21:47:14 Score for iconmaster_fastfail: 0.0 21:47:32 YES! I win... Er... Lose. 21:47:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:47:48 You win at losing. 21:48:01 oh noes, wheres oerjan 21:48:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:48:05 I'm proud. 21:48:06 !bfjoust i_hope_you_fuck_up_my_tape_before_i_finish_my_deed (-)*128 21:48:09 who was that? 21:48:17 Score for elliott_i_hope_you_fuck_up_my_tape_before_i_finish_my_deed: 7.6 21:48:50 !bfjoust spin_cycle [(+)*100000] 21:48:56 !bfjoust zero-point-one (>-)*10([-]>)*2 21:49:10 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia. 21:49:14 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 21:49:14 -!- Lymia has joined. 21:49:15 oerjan: inventor of some language 21:50:11 Score for Gregor_spin_cycle: 11.6 21:50:21 ah Calculon, which i proofread a bit 21:50:39 Score for Lymia__zero-point-one: 0.0 21:50:44 :< 21:50:48 Wow :P 21:51:09 !bfjoust zero-point-one (>+)*10(>[-])*2 21:51:14 !bfjoust super_fail [[]+] 21:51:15 $ ./lance '[xxx' 21:51:15 Syntax error: Unmatched [ (on line 1, at column 1) 21:51:15 yay 21:51:21 Score for Lymia_zero-point-one: 0.0 21:51:25 -!- augur has joined. 21:51:47 :< :< 21:51:50 Score for iconmaster_super_fail: 3.1 21:52:00 Lymia: egobot rounds, try report.txt 21:52:03 for that extra decimal digit! 21:52:19 !bfjoust 21:52:19 Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 21:52:32 !bfjoust for_want_of_a_better_name (>)*9(-)*128 21:52:48 elliott: 10 is the only tape length dood 21:52:53 Gregor: Indeed. 21:52:54 Score for elliott_for_want_of_a_better_name: 0.4 21:52:58 Aw man 21:53:00 Too good!!! 21:53:18 !bfjoust other_side_sui_cide (>)*30 21:53:26 Score for Gregor_other_side_sui_cide: 0.0 21:54:00 ais523_: anti-defence strategy idea 21:54:12 !bfjoust less_fail ([)*1000(]+)*999] 21:54:13 yes? 21:54:17 !bfjoust zero-point-one >+(>)*8([-]>)*2 21:54:19 ais523_: look for the first non-zero cell, assume it's a tripwire, use this fact to skip it, and also to get some idea of where the flag is 21:54:27 (because tripwires aren't likely to be placed too far from the opponent's flag) 21:54:31 elliott: that's what tripwire avoiders do 21:54:35 ais523_: Oh :P 21:54:43 At least I'm as smart as whoever came up with that. 21:54:55 Score for Lymia_zero-point-one: 2.0 21:54:55 Score for iconmaster_less_fail: 3.0 21:54:59 What 21:55:00 although it's often a decoy rather than a tripwire 21:55:21 !bfjoust zero-point-one (>+)*2(>)*7((-)*128>)*2 21:55:24 ais523_: Right. 21:55:30 Score for Lymia_zero-point-one: 0.0 21:55:39 ais523_: The difference being that clearing decoys just wastes time, whereas clearing tripwires is downright dangerous. 21:55:40 !bfjoust flag_is_tripwire [](+)*100000 21:55:54 elliott: indeed; although wasting time is often /also/ outright dangerous 21:55:55 Score for Gregor_flag_is_tripwire: 3.1 21:56:09 and typical tripwires are not normally last, but buried in a maze of decoys 21:56:25 e.g. defend9.75 changes the value of 7 cells and its flag; three of them are tripwires 21:56:34 wait, no, four 21:56:40 ais523_: indeed, but wasting time destroying decoys doesn't matter if your program is a defence and you don't hit a tripwire 21:56:54 (unless your rush is so slow that the defence program decides to go attack) 21:57:10 !bfjoust dumb [[+.>]+] 21:57:14 hmm, attackers have turned into "rushers" 21:57:19 despite the fact that a rush is just a fast attack 21:57:21 Score for iconmaster_dumb: 0.0 21:57:47 !bfjoust this_vibrators_got_four_d_batteries (-)*128+[[(---+++)*100000]+] 21:58:15 Score for Gregor_this_vibrators_got_four_d_batteries: 13.8 21:58:16 !bfjoust zero-point-one (>+)*2(>)*7([-]>)*2 21:58:30 Score for Lymia_zero-point-one: 0.2 21:58:36 !bfjoust möbius (>(+>->)*14(+<-<)*14<)*10000 21:58:42 Score for Deewiant_m__bius: 0.0 21:59:03 unicode fail 21:59:10 Lymia: trying to get 0.1 exactly? 21:59:12 Yeah. 21:59:20 !bfjoust möbius (>(+>->)*4(+<-<)*4<)*10000 21:59:20 0.2 might be 0.16 21:59:21 :P 21:59:22 elliott: terminology's been around ever since slowrush 21:59:27 !bfjoust dumb >[[+.>]+] 21:59:33 ais523_: yep; slowrush is a bit of a contradiction in the name, though 21:59:38 Score for Deewiant_m__bius: 0.3 21:59:44 Gregor, damn your huge hill. 21:59:52 How am I supposed to evolve agienst that. 21:59:53 :( 21:59:55 ais523_: exercise: figure out whether there are any attack programs that aren't rushes 21:59:57 Lymia: Badly. 22:00:00 Lymia: fizzie did quite well :P 22:00:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:00:12 I can see that. 22:00:13 :( 22:00:22 elliott: ones that use a forwards tripwire for synchronisation, possibly 22:00:22 His result was pendolino with a few + added :-P 22:00:45 Deewiant: Err, his latest submission was from the example programs. 22:00:47 And got something like 33. 22:00:48 btw, I think that if you're trying to counter a particular program, evolving based on the program itself is a good idea 22:00:51 His SOURCE was pendolino, wannit? 22:01:03 e.g. try to make a few changes in order to win the mirror match, at the cost of everything else 22:01:15 Gregor: Yes. 22:01:19 Among others. 22:01:30 !bfjoust zero-point-one (>+)*3(>)*7((-)*128>>)*2 22:01:35 !bfjoust dum2 >[[+.>]+] 22:01:51 ais523_: It is a belief of mine that there exists an algorithm that takes a BF Joust program and returns a program which beats it on all polarities and tape lengths. 22:02:00 ditto 22:02:01 Score for Lymia_zero-point-one: 0.0 22:02:02 elliott: Yes, that was the careless clear example with a -- trail at the start and a + trail at the end 22:02:06 many algorithms, in fact 22:02:10 Score for iconmaster_dum2: 3.1 22:02:20 elliott, ais523_: Since runtime is limited, there should be by definition. 22:02:22 !bfjoust zero-point-one (>+)*3(>)*7((-)*128>)*2 22:02:29 Gregor: Oh, I was ignoring that pesky issue. 22:02:35 I mean, brute force is one such algorithm 22:02:38 Gregor: Also I think polarity/tape lengths make it slightly less than trivial. 22:02:40 Because you can't detect that. 22:02:44 Score for Lymia_zero-point-one: 0.0 22:02:45 elliott, question is. 22:02:46 (But you can know how the program behaves on all the different ones) 22:02:56 Do you have to solve the halting problem as a part of it? 22:03:01 No. 22:03:06 !bfjoust zero-point-one (>+)*2(>)*9((-)*128>)*2 22:03:08 The halting problem is never the answer to any serious question. 22:03:18 (Apart from maybe "What dun that Turing fellow") 22:03:20 Score for Lymia_zero-point-one: 0.0 22:04:02 elliott, eh, well. 22:04:44 I can see it working, it's just that I have no clue how it would work. 22:04:55 My, GNU C is fancy: 22:04:55 nonnull (arg-index, ...) 22:04:55 The nonnull attribute specifies that some function parameters should be non-null pointers. For instance, the declaration: 22:05:11 Lymia: there are a finite number of BF Joust programs 22:05:12 Mostly because if you modify your warrior to behave differently, the enemy has a good chance of changing it's behavior in response too. 22:05:16 because the cycle count is finite 22:05:27 therefore, iterate through every BF Joust program until you find one that beats your input on all tape lengths and polarities 22:05:28 Q.E.D. 22:05:36 Brute force. 22:05:37 I like it. 22:05:42 It's what's for dinner. 22:05:46 (Note: This would be hideously impractical.) 22:05:58 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:06:00 You think? 22:06:06 Deewiant: On occasion. 22:06:17 Nice understatement you have there 22:06:36 There's only upwards of 7^10000 programs to go through 22:06:52 Does a unmatched [ or ] cause EgoJoust to error? Or does it compensate somehow? 22:07:04 Egojoust compensates somehow, the others error 22:07:13 iconmaster: It nops. But no, don't do that. 22:07:17 Also, ([)*n is invalid. 22:07:19 Use ()%. 22:07:44 !bfjoust quickest-loser ([)*1 22:07:44 -!- iconmaster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:07:47 Deewiant: For the record, I added in a slight bias for shorter programs; it got rid of the dead ballat at the end, but it hasn't innovated anything else than evo_4. Who knows, though, maybe tomorrow morning it has dreamed up a winrar. 22:07:48 Deewiant: You missed an 0 22:07:54 -!- iconmaster has joined. 22:07:55 Lymia: It's a nop in egojoust. 22:07:57 Because egojoust sucks. 22:07:59 Crap. 22:07:59 Score for Lymia_quickest-loser: 3.1 22:08:11 elliott: Oh, for some reason I actually thought it was 10000 22:08:23 fizzie, >:3 22:08:25 Nope, -1 just turns into that because Gregor am dum 22:08:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:09:17 How about a program that floods the hill with randomly generated programs? 22:10:10 Ooh, I have the perfect name for such a program. 22:10:12 "Asshole". 22:10:22 Lol. 22:11:30 -!- jcp has joined. 22:11:40 the hill wouldn't be flooded, random programs would rarely get anywhere 22:11:49 Flood the hill with evolved programs? 22:11:56 anyway, time to go home 22:12:02 As they are evolved agienst eachother... 22:12:03 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:12:08 That program is calles "fizzie". :p 22:12:13 :D 22:12:26 -!- iconmaster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:12:33 -!- iconmaster has joined. 22:12:48 Maybe "4" does not quite yet equal "flood". 22:12:51 fizzie, how long does a generation normally take to process? 22:13:12 FIVE YEARS 22:13:22 He's using cranklance, which is like lance, but operated with a hand-crank. 22:14:14 Lymia: I haven't exactly timed it. Maybe around a minute or five? Depending on the parameters, of course. 22:14:20 Ah. 22:14:42 `yes 22:15:10 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 22:15:16 `yes no 22:15:17 no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no 22:15:35 !sh yes 22:15:56 I HATE HATE HATE that a case can't point to a variable declaration 22:15:59 y 22:16:00 *declaration. 22:16:05 HackEgo: Are you saying 'no' just to be negative? 22:16:12 `yes yes \ no 22:16:13 yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no \ yes \ no 22:16:19 `yes yes \ no \ maybe 22:16:20 yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes \ no \ maybe \ yes 22:16:32 Lol its a bot. 22:16:39 What an observation! 22:16:44 !ls 22:16:51 !sh ls 22:16:52 oerjan: *!sh ls 22:16:52 interps 22:17:16 !sh ls interps | fmt -w400 22:17:17 1l 2l Makefile adjust axo befunge bf_txtgen bfjoust boof c-intercal cat cfunge clc-intercal dimensifuck egobch egobf fukyorbrane gcccomp gforth_quit ghc glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl 22:17:33 !sh cat interps/Makefile 22:17:33 CC=gcc 22:17:44 wow that made an unholy noise 22:17:47 as all the messages came in at once 22:17:50 !underload ((a)S:^):^ 22:18:02 # simply cheks when you make that these are installed, which is nice for fresh 22:18:03 Gregor: "cheks" 22:18:11 as i thought... 22:18:19 .SUFFIXES: .c .cc .cpp .bin 22:18:19 22:18:19 .c.bin: 22:18:28 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:18:33 also, s/bin/exe/ is the standard extension for such 22:18:36 (yes, even on Unix...) 22:19:10 * variable pokes people 22:19:12 !sh echo '(:aSS):aSS' | interps/underload 22:19:22 /tmp/input.16487: line 1: interps/underload: is a directory 22:19:27 oh 22:19:34 !ls interps/underload 22:19:42 er 22:19:51 !sh ls interps/underload | fmt -w400 22:19:51 underload.bin underload.c 22:20:06 !sh echo '(:aSS):aSS' | interps/underload/underload.bin 22:20:07 Usage: derl (-o|-a) [inputfile] 22:20:07 | 22:20:07 /`\ 22:20:33 Heh, that was amusing. 22:20:36 myndzi: your missing a head 22:20:43 variable: it's egobot's -o| 22:20:44 | 22:20:44 |\ 22:20:46 also, *you're :| 22:20:50 !sh echo '(:aSS):aSS' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o 22:20:50 (:aSS):aSSAttempt to execute unknown command 10 22:20:55 oerjan: echo -n 22:20:58 ah 22:21:03 !sh echo -n '(:aSS):aSS' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o 22:21:04 (:aSS):aSS 22:21:32 * variable reads this channel a lot - I should talk more 22:21:53 wait we have actual lurkers? :) 22:22:16 * iconmaster talks a lot, and generally makes a fool outa himself 22:23:00 -!- fungot has joined. 22:23:58 !run ls interps/*/*.bin | fmt -w400 22:24:17 !echo hi 22:24:19 hi 22:24:25 !run ls interps/*/*.bin | fmt -w400 22:24:37 isn't that legal syntax? :( 22:24:37 iconmaster: not as much a fool as the rest of us make of ourselves on a regular basis :) 22:24:41 oerjan: yes 22:24:46 !run ls interps/*/*; echo hi 22:24:49 er 22:24:50 oerjan: "!run" 22:24:51 ^ul (aS(:^)S):^ 22:24:51 (aS(:^)S):^ 22:24:56 doofus :) 22:24:58 !echo im silly! 22:24:59 im silly! 22:25:01 I think I like that more. 22:25:03 duh 22:25:06 !sh ls interps/*/*.bin | fmt -w400 22:25:10 It doesn't have them rude words. 22:25:21 interps/1l/1l_a.bin interps/2l/2li.bin interps/adjust/adjust.bin interps/axo/axopp.0.1.0.bin interps/befunge/bef.bin interps/kipple/cipple.bin interps/malbolge/malbolge.bin interps/pbrain/pbrain.bin interps/sceql/sceql-0.1.bin interps/trigger/trigger.bin interps/udage01/switch.bin interps/underload/underload.bin interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin 22:25:37 fizzie: What rude words. 22:25:50 bah there doesn't seem to be a uniform naming 22:25:57 -!- hiato has joined. 22:26:01 oerjan: indeed, see the makefile for more 22:26:04 elliott: The ASS. 22:26:14 fizzie: Quite. 22:26:19 fizzie: The palindromic one is surely even better, though. 22:26:21 * iconmaster is going to make RPOS v2 this weekend. Joy! 22:26:23 elliott: i am trying to make a program that can run another interpreter while cutting off the input 22:26:32 oerjan: to what end? 22:26:34 since EgoBot refuses to do so 22:26:45 what do you mean by cutting off the input? 22:26:59 elliott: so that i can give EgoBot underload programs that produce an infinite line 22:27:08 cutting off the output then 22:27:10 why not just use fungot :-P 22:27:11 elliott: you prolly have mzscheme running 22:27:13 er ups 22:27:14 oh. 22:27:17 is that why 22:27:20 s/ $// 22:27:23 because i use mzscheme 22:27:25 i see :| 22:27:38 ^help 22:27:38 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 22:27:50 elliott: fungot doesn't take urls 22:27:51 oerjan: only i can use them, however, in book or lecture form. ( define-operation ( cell-contents cell)) 22:27:54 !echo iconmaster is a great guy! 22:27:56 iconmaster is a great guy! 22:28:03 What a tool. 22:28:19 oh well 22:28:55 oerjan: er does it not? 22:29:01 i believe it does 22:29:01 !addinterp ulcut sh interp/underload/underload.bin | head -c5000 22:29:02 Interpreter ulcut installed. 22:29:03 or at least ^def does. 22:29:06 it does? 22:29:09 think so, yes. 22:29:10 ^help 22:29:10 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 22:29:21 well, it has that str stuff. 22:29:25 ask fizzie if it does HTTP. 22:29:26 I think it does 22:29:27 !ulcut ((a)S:^):^ 22:29:28 /tmp/input.17170: line 1: interp/underload/underload.bin: No such file or directory 22:29:34 ff 22:29:41 oh 22:29:45 ^str 0 get 22:29:45 foobar 22:29:47 ^str 9 get 22:29:47 Empty. 22:29:50 ^str 9 set abc 22:29:50 Set: abc 22:29:50 !addinterp ulcut sh interp/underload/underload.bin -o | head -c5000 22:29:51 There is already an interpreter for ulcut! 22:29:54 ^str 9 add def 22:29:54 Added. 22:29:56 ^str 9 set (abc) 22:29:56 Set: (abc) 22:29:57 !delinterp ulcut 22:29:58 ^str 9 add S 22:29:58 Added. 22:29:58 Interpreter ulcut deleted. 22:29:59 !addinterp ulcut sh interp/underload/underload.bin -o | head -c5000 22:30:01 Interpreter ulcut installed. 22:30:03 ^ul str:9 22:30:03 ...bad insn! 22:30:05 !ulcut ((a)S:^):^ 22:30:05 /tmp/input.17295: line 1: interp/underload/underload.bin: No such file or directory 22:30:07 eh? 22:30:08 ^str 9 get 22:30:08 (abc)S 22:30:12 goddamn 22:30:13 *shrug* 22:30:16 oerjan: dude, ask fizzie 22:30:20 I'm pretty sure it does http 22:33:55 It was supposed to. 22:34:01 But it never did. 22:34:15 ah. 22:34:29 ^delinterp ulcut 22:34:36 er 22:34:39 !delinterp ulcut 22:34:39 Interpreter ulcut deleted. 22:34:49 The str stuff can be used for longer stuff though, right. 22:35:30 !help userinterps 22:35:31 userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp. 22:35:37 !show slashes 22:35:37 perl (sending via DCC) 22:36:27 hm that one definitely can take either stdin or file 22:36:30 !help languages 22:36:30 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 22:36:40 The ^help text seems to be lying somewhat, str:n doesn't work everywhere. 22:36:43 ^str 9 get 22:36:43 (abc)S 22:36:46 ^ul str:9 22:36:46 ...bad insn! 22:36:48 ^def tmp ul str:9 22:36:49 Defined. 22:36:51 ^tmp 22:36:52 abc 22:37:16 !c int main() {printf("test");} 22:37:30 :( 22:38:23 !addinterp test sh echo 22:38:23 There is already an interpreter for test! 22:38:30 !delinterp test 22:38:40 what 22:38:43 Ouch, lance 2 is pretty slow. 22:38:48 !addinterp test sh echo 22:38:48 There is already an interpreter for test! 22:38:49 Needs more inlining. 22:39:02 must be something other then... 22:39:04 !show test 22:39:04 That is not a user interpreter! 22:39:12 !addinterp test2 sh echo 22:39:15 Interpreter test2 installed. 22:39:20 !test2 hi 22:39:45 hm that looks like something taking stding 22:39:52 !delinterp test2 22:39:53 Interpreter test2 deleted. 22:40:28 !addinterp ulcut sh interp/underload/underload.bin -o 22:40:28 Interpreter ulcut installed. 22:40:34 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi). 22:40:35 !ulcut (:aSS):aSS 22:40:35 /tmp/input.17885: line 1: interp/underload/underload.bin: No such file or directory 22:40:47 hm... 22:40:59 oh wait fuck 22:41:07 !delinterp ulcut 22:41:07 Interpreter ulcut deleted. 22:41:26 !addinterp ulcut sh interps/underload/underload.bin -o | head -c5000 22:41:27 Interpreter ulcut installed. 22:41:36 !ulcut (:aSS):aSS 22:41:37 Attempt to execute unknown command 10 22:41:51 Where does the argument go in anyways. 22:42:06 That is, the program being submitted for running. 22:42:23 Lymia: i think it's sent on stdin for userinterps 22:42:48 but on files for languages 22:42:57 (that /tmp thing) 22:43:04 Why is this program slower... 22:43:27 also why does it keep adding a newline 22:43:29 !addinterp runc sh cat > tmp.c | gcc -O3 -o tmp tmp.c | ./tmp 22:43:30 Interpreter runc installed. 22:43:38 !runc int main() {printf("test");} 22:43:39 /tmp/input.18166: line 1: tmp.c: Permission denied 22:43:55 :< 22:44:00 Lymia: there is already a c language in EgoBot btw 22:44:11 !deinterp runc 22:44:22 comedy of the day: "-Ofast" is an actual gcc option 22:44:23 !delinterp runc 22:44:28 Interpreter runc deleted. 22:44:50 So. 22:44:58 Lymia: no changing files directly allowed, iirc 22:45:02 use HackEgo for that 22:45:06 elliott: my compiler will have -Olsner 22:45:07 Buh. 22:45:07 :< 22:45:16 olsner: turns on lsner optimisations? 22:45:28 yep, lsner, that's right 22:45:42 !c int main() { printf("test or something"); } 22:45:42 !sh interps/underload/underload.bin 22:45:44 test or something 22:45:45 Dosn't work. 22:45:49 ... 22:45:50 Never mind! 22:45:53 :D 22:46:12 !sh interps/underload/underload.bin fnord 22:46:12 Usage: derl (-o|-a) [inputfile] 22:46:13 | 22:46:13 >\ 22:46:22 Least-Squares Nonlinear Equation R-something? 22:46:33 yuck, debugging... as soon as you find yourself debugging a C program you know that you've already failed and might as well start over from the beginning and try to get it right this time 22:46:37 Reduction 22:46:52 !c void boom () { register int esp asm ("esp"); esp = 50; printf("Byebye, %u!",esp); } int main() { boom(); return 1 } 22:46:53 Does not compile. 22:46:56 :( 22:47:09 !sh echo -n '(:aSS):aSS' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o 22:47:10 (:aSS):aSS 22:47:30 !c void boom () { register int esp asm ("esp"); esp = 50; printf("Byebye, %u!",esp); } int main () { boom(); return 1; } 22:47:32 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 18490 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:48:48 There *are* easier ways to segfault. 22:49:00 I wonder what happens if you do something like !c int main() { kill(getppid()); } 22:49:00 !c int nya[1024]; void mungTheStack() { register int *esp asm ("esp"); memcpy(esp,nya,1024*sizeof(int)); } int main () { mungTheStack(); } 22:49:03 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 18598 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:49:03 I"m just messing around 22:49:10 !ulcut 22:49:10 Attempt to execute unknown command 10 22:49:19 I'm* 22:50:12 s/1024*sizeof(int)/sizeof nya/ -- even when messing around, no need to look all ugly. 22:50:25 !c int main () { main(); } 22:50:29 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 18705 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 22:50:45 !delinterp ulcut 22:50:46 Interpreter ulcut deleted. 22:52:46 !addinterp test2 sh wc 22:52:59 !echo hi 22:53:07 wtf 22:53:10 Interpreter test2 installed. 22:53:14 !test2 hi 22:53:38 !echo hi 22:53:47 EgoBot is croaking 22:53:59 hi 22:54:06 !test2 hi 22:54:08 1 1 3 22:54:12 ic 22:55:33 !delinterp test2 22:55:34 Interpreter test2 deleted. 22:56:46 $ ./lance '(]' '' 22:56:46 Syntax error: Unmatched ( (on line 1, at column 1), closed with [ (on line 1, at column 2) 22:56:51 GOOD ENOUGH ERROR REPORTING, DEEWIANT?! 22:56:57 oops 22:56:59 needs an inversion there 22:57:06 NOPE 22:57:13 Syntax error: Unmatched ( (on line 1, at column 1), closed with ] (on line 1, at column 2) 22:57:18 Deewiant: WOULD YOU LIKE THE LINE UNDERLINED 22:57:30 -!- iconmaster has joined. 22:57:32 Mostly the column 22:57:40 Deewiant: PERHAPS A TWO-PRONGED ARROW POINTING TO BOTH RELEVANT CHARACTERS? 22:57:50 Sure 22:57:51 Including a 2D line for all those multi-line cases. 22:58:03 2D lines! What witchery 23:00:11 Perhaps you should produce a data: URL that encodes a PNG where you've printed the offending code with some fancy highlights and lens flares. 23:00:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:00:28 -!- cheater99 has joined. 23:00:49 fizzie: Or open the user's browser auto-magically. 23:00:57 Produce a data: URL with befunge code that draws the offending code using TURT 23:01:47 So how's CCBI's error-reporting :) 23:02:00 Excellent 23:02:06 !bfjoust nonsense [[(-)*256(+)*256]+] 23:03:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:03:30 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:03:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:05:20 Deewiant: But Befunge has no errors :P 23:05:36 Precisely 23:06:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:06:51 elliott: 23:06:52 Score for Gregor_nonsense: 11.9 23:06:52 $ echo "" > x; ccbi x 23:06:52 CCBI :: Infinite loop detected! 23:06:53 Detected by Funge-Space at (112,0) with delta (1,0): 23:06:53 IP found itself whilst processing spaces. 23:07:03 Deewiant: STANDARDS INCOMPLIANT 23:07:09 By default, yes 23:07:13 BOO 23:07:14 It has the -I option if you really want to infloop 23:08:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:09:07 I think the only other one is in STRN.G 23:09:25 Well, other than the various equivalent situations in which infloops can occur for IPs 23:10:41 The static area even makes the error messages ugly, it'd detect it at (0,0) otherwise :-/ 23:11:21 Deewiant: I will pay you £5 if you remove the static area and implement some fancy just-as-fast-but-elegant thing in the next CCBI :-P 23:11:26 Because fuck cfunge, man. 23:11:43 There is no just-as-fast, that's the problem :-P 23:12:57 Deewiant: Didn't you say some k-d tree thing would help? :-P 23:13:02 -!- Slereah has joined. 23:13:17 That just helps when you have multiple boxes 23:13:35 Deewiant: I refuse to believe that a static area is necessary to be competitive with cfunge. 23:13:43 Optimise other shit :P 23:14:38 It doesn't change the fact that if (x>=0&&y>=0&&y<128&&x<128) return array[y*128 + x] is faster than if (x>=ox&&y>=oy&&y $ ./lance '(>)*9([-]>*21' '' 23:15:49 Syntax error: Unmatched ( (on line 2, at column 1) 23:15:49 I think not. 23:15:55 Deewiant: And? 23:16:08 ... and stuff like that is by far the bottleneck? 23:16:20 Deewiant: On benchmarks that are how artificial, exactly? :-P 23:16:27 On real programs, mostly 23:16:28 I'm sure there's some other part of CCBI less optimised. 23:16:32 On benchmarks it's the other stuff 23:16:48 Which is why 2.0 didn't have a static area 23:17:51 I'm sure there's room for improvement in other areas but if it's in the low 10% and you're more than 10% slower it really doesn't matter 23:18:10 Deewiant: How much is the difference? It surely can't be more than 0.05s on anything. It fundamentally violates my worldview that such simple differences in conditionals and arithmetic could be a deal-breaker. 23:18:16 Are you sure D overhead isn't hurting you? :-P 23:18:44 elliott: On fun_got's underload interpreter on some program the difference was like 20s to 16s or something 23:18:59 Deewiant: "fun_got"; that kind of stuff violates channel rules I'm sure. 23:19:00 Given that it was mostly just tight loops in the initial area 23:19:06 elliott: I didn't want to ping it :-P 23:19:09 fizzie: Please tell Deewiant that talking about fungot behind its back is a bannable offence. 23:19:10 elliott: c has an ignore restarter, restart/ ignore do? the symbols look familiar ( p,q,r) but i can 23:19:16 It has the right to express its views, after all. 23:19:46 elliott: But we all do that about you! Uh, I mean, never mind. 23:19:50 Deewiant: Generalisation of my UTTER GENIUS THREADED CODE IDEA: Do magic so that tight loops don't /need/ to look at fungespace like that. 23:19:58 fizzie: ITT: I read logs 23:20:00 :P 23:20:28 -!- nik340 has joined. 23:20:35 -!- nik340 has left (?). 23:20:51 FAREWELL NIK340 23:21:01 WE HARDLY KNEW YE 23:21:48 Hmm, what's up with the parser stack here. 23:24:22 $ ./lance '()*3(' '[]' 23:24:23 Syntax error: Unmatched ( (on line 2, at column 1) 23:24:23 WHAT DEFINITION OF LINE ARE YOU USING HERE 23:24:39 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:25:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:27:06 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:27:30 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:29 wtf :/ 23:32:36 there are definitely no newlines here. 23:32:42 OH 23:32:42 DUR 23:32:59 Fuck roads. 23:33:13 -!- tswett has joined. 23:33:22 pikhq: totally 23:34:19 Tk actually looks native on Windows nowadays? 23:34:28 Am I in some kind of alternate reality? 23:35:04 Tk has always looked native on not-UNIX. 23:35:38 And it used to look native there. 23:35:41 Mmmm, Motif. 23:37:11 pikhq: Tk isn't native on OS X. 23:37:17 But yeah, on Windows, it looks fine. See: IDLE. 23:37:24 (It's native-ISH on OS X.) 23:37:31 (But not nearly native enough.) 23:37:47 elliott, OSX is not not-UNIX 23:37:49 I thought 23:37:54 Ah, right, it was merely "made an attempt at native" on OS X. 23:37:57 Oh 23:38:01 Um, not oh 23:38:18 Gregor: So... with your model, ( knows where the { is, and ) knows where the } is, right? 23:38:21 I think it was actually totally native on classic Mac OS. 23:38:21 And everything knows where ( is. 23:38:29 And certainly was on random PDAs it was ported to. 23:38:35 elliott: Yeah. In fact, {}) all know where ( is, and ( stores where all the others are. 23:38:36 I don't think Tk looked very good on Windows either; wasn't the whole point of Tile that it looks more native on Windows? 23:38:46 Gregor: Toooo muuuuuch indirectionnnnnnnnnnnnnn 23:38:51 fizzie: Not really. 23:38:54 elliott: Waaaaaaaah 23:38:54 fizzie: Well, maybe. 23:38:55 fizzie: No, the whole point of Tile was to make it look right on X. 23:38:58 All I know is IDLE looks perfect on Windows. 23:39:04 As in is-natively-rendered. 23:39:07 fizzie: On Windows it just used native widgets. 23:39:09 "# Native look and feel under Windows XP 23:39:10 Wooooh, my favorite episode of Seinfeld is on. 23:39:12 # Native look and feel under other Windows versions" 23:39:15 Gregor: But ( just needs to know where { is, and ) where } is, right? 23:39:20 fizzie: Very odd. It used native widgets. 23:39:23 Does } know anything? Apart from where ( is? 23:39:24 That is what Tile lists as their features. 23:39:28 elliott: Yeah. And the counts. 23:39:32 fizzie: Perhaps IDLE uses Tile then. 23:39:34 But doubtful. 23:39:36 Why are we talking paste tense? 23:39:36 Since it doesn't on X. 23:39:50 Gregor: Right, well, everything knows where ( is. But I'd rather that ) know where } is directly. 23:39:53 Since ( doesn't need to know that. 23:40:00 Which means I need MORE FIELDS YAY 23:40:03 To gobble up MORE MEMORY 23:40:22 00:50 elliott> Syntax error: Unmatched ( (on line 2, at column 1) 23:40:22 00:50 elliott> WHAT DEFINITION OF LINE ARE YOU USING HERE 23:40:28 oerjan: fixed :P 23:40:40 my guess is that it is giving the position of the eof instead of the original ( 23:40:53 nope 23:41:01 it was that i forgot a break; in the ) case, so it fell through to the \n case 23:41:09 a wonderful, stupid combination 23:41:27 `make love 23:41:33 `run make love 23:41:58 In crank, there's two fields; "match" points ( to ) and back, { to } and back; "inner" points from ( to { and back, } to ) and back. I'm not sure if I use the "match" fields at all after parsing is done, though. 23:42:15 fizzie: You have to; ( on )*0 jumps to the ). 23:42:22 Unless you SNEAKILY ELIDE IT; which I probably should. 23:42:28 *IT, 23:42:31 Yes, well, for inner-less loops, sure. 23:42:33 Yup, Tk for Windows has always *literally used native Win32 widgets*. 23:42:44 It functions as a wrapper around Win32 on Windows. 23:43:02 No output. 23:43:02 No output. 23:43:36 Tile, it seems, just lets you use different themes, including using Windows native widgets if you so wish. 23:46:22 elliott: } during runtime doesn't need to know anything if you do things the way i imagine 23:46:34 (just pushing a 0) 23:46:38 oerjan: that's true, using a stack, but I'm not using a stack 23:46:41 "In the current version, the default 23:46:41 font for Tk buttons, labels, entries etc. is "MS Sans Serif" 8 pt regardless of what font the user 23:46:44 configured in Windows; this makes Tk programs look slightly (but noticably) different from native 23:46:48 Windows dialog applications." 23:46:50 oerjan: I'm storing the iteration in the (, because egojsout does it that way, and because my last attempt was broken 23:46:52 and egojsout isn't broken 23:46:55 imitation, flattery, etc. 23:46:55 Could have been bugs like that, I guess. 23:47:11 elliott: ok without a stack it _also_ doesn't need to know anything 23:47:24 oerjan: it needs to know where ( is 23:47:28 so it knows where to put the 0 or whatever 23:47:41 elliott: no it doesn't, because { should already have set it to 0 23:47:46 oerjan: hm. right. 23:47:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:48:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:48:55 elliott: { and ) both need to know the location of the counter, one of them, ) it seems in this case, needs to know the maximum value for it 23:49:20 and { needs to know the position of (, and ) needs to know the position of } 23:49:24 Grawr. 23:49:31 "Guys and dolls, isn't that a lavish Broadway musical?" "It's guys and dolls, not guys and guys." 23:49:42 ( needs to know the position of the counter and the maximal value 23:49:44 Gregor: :D 23:50:00 oerjan: cranklance uses a stack of repetition-counter values; ( pushes old to keep it safe, inits to N; { decrements; pops if zero, jumps otherwise; } again pushes the old value and initializes to 1; ) increments and then either jumps back or pops. Is that the same as your way? 23:50:19 oerjan: incidentally I've been learning that making everything elegant and structs and functions slows things down even if you inline them :/ 23:50:22 mostly for max-cycle programs 23:50:38 Gregor: I need your EXPERT OPINION. 23:50:49 In my opinion, I am an expert. 23:50:53 There, now you have my expert opinion. 23:51:07 Gregor: Did it take the gcc developers longer to write the error for "case 'x': type var = val;" than it would have for them to automatically transform it into "case 'x': ; type var = val;"? 23:51:09 The answer is: YES. 23:51:21 This would also have achieved: NOT LITTERING CODE WITH SEEMINGLY-MEANINGLESS ";"S 23:51:50 I'm sure it's THE LAW. 23:51:51 That's a bad place to put a type declaration anyway, if you need types local to a case you should put them in a block. 23:51:54 fizzie: apart from the "old value" stuff which i don't see the point of 23:52:28 s/types local/variables local/ 23:52:38 That's a bad place to put a type declaration anyway, if you need types local to a case you should put them in a block. 23:52:42 Maybe if C didn't make that hideous, I would. 23:52:46 I'm sure it's THE LAW. 23:52:48 -std=gnu99. 23:52:51 The LAW doesn't apply. 23:52:52 oerjan: The "old value" is the previous value in the "current counter" variable { and ) manipulate. I guess you could treat it as the top of the stack. 23:52:53 case foo: { int x; /* OH NOSE */ } 23:53:03 Gregor: Yes, that is indeed ugly. 23:53:14 Gregor: Of course were the syntax: 23:53:20 switch (foo) { case ('x') { ... } } 23:53:27 #define case(x) case x: 23:53:30 But the fall-thru! 23:53:31 then there would be no problem. Also, Duff would have been stopped before he could propagate his insanity. 23:53:39 fizzie: You could do what C# does, have "continue;". 23:54:06 Gregor: I used to do that sort of thing before my editor started indenting it all funny. 23:54:19 fizzie: oh i see you are not considering the "current value" as on the stack. well that should be equivalent to considering it so, in which case this is all equivalent to my idea i think 23:54:39 fizzie: My editor (VIM!) does it right :P 23:55:26 Gregor: Curiously enough, this happened about the same time as my latest Vim to Emacs flop. Hmm, I wonder... nah, can't be related. 23:55:52 elliott: incidentally if you store the counter and maximal value at (, then only ) needs to keep track of more than one of the others, i think ( both } and ) ) 23:56:45 well ( and } need to know none of the others, { needs to know ( 23:57:19 er *i think ( both } and ( ) 23:57:45 Gregor: lol @ vim users 23:57:58 "Oh, I want to use vi, but I'd rather it be at least half as bloated as Emacs..." 23:58:04 "Think you could arrange that for me?" 23:58:29 ((((DELETED X-RATED SCENE "Also, it would be great if it told me about Ugandan children every time I started it up. Then I'd get good, bloated software, *and* awareness!")))) 23:58:46 [U+PRBLM TROLL FACE] 23:59:57 Oh, the current splash (at least in this build) doesn't mention Uganda at all. Feels weird. (I've been ignoring it so haven't noticed.)