00:00:12 oerjan: The rest has been blocked out by your mind for your own safety? 00:01:23 PROBABLY 00:01:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:01:54 i have somewhat more vague memories of Lycksele Djurpark. 00:02:28 -> 00:08:03 -!- Mannerisky has joined. 00:10:11 Hmm... I should try implementing the new SHA-512/224 and SHA-512/256. :-) 00:10:35 They're not new. 00:13:29 Well, so new I haven't even got my hands on the specifications yet. 00:13:47 lol 00:13:56 Ilari: sha-2 came out in 2001 00:14:03 hardly new 00:15:47 elliott: You are probably confusing those hashes with SHA-224 and SHA-256. 00:15:53 Oh, I misparsed. 00:16:06 Ilari: Well, SHA-256 is part of SHA-2. 00:16:09 Oh, and SHA-512. 00:16:10 In cryptography, SHA-2 is a set of cryptographic hash functions (SHA-224, SHA-256, SHA-384, SHA-512) designed by the National Security Agency (NSA) and published in 2001 by the NIST as a U.S. Federal Information Processing Standard. SHA stands for Secure Hash Algorithm. SHA-2 includes a significant number of changes from its predecessor, SHA-1. SHA-2 consists of a set of four hash functions with digests that are 224, 256, 384 or 512 bits. 00:16:19 So... nope, they came out in 2001 00:16:23 Looks like 00:19:19 For some reason, looks like they have pulled the specs. Actually, that's not the only spec pulled and the site was down today, so I think they are having technical problems. 00:19:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.13/20101203075014]). 00:20:14 SHA-512/224 is a 224 bit hash. SHA-512/256 is 256 bit hash. 00:20:41 Oh, I see. 00:20:42 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:20:57 It's (SHA-512/224), not SHA-(512/224) 00:21:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:21:06 Ilari: Aren't they just the relevant-sized prefixes of SHA-512? 00:22:15 With different IV. 00:22:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:22:38 "Object Oriented PHP-GTK2" 00:22:40 pikhq_: OH DEAR GOD 00:24:55 I think the IVs would be pretty predictable. Unfortunately, I don't know what way around those would be. 00:27:48 Namely, First 64 bits of fractional parts of square roots of 17th to 24th prime (and 25th to 32nd prime). 00:31:44 -!- azaq23 has joined. 00:37:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:39:23 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:40:30 pikhq_: I need you to stop me unleashing an untold horror onto this world. 00:42:31 elliott: *shudder* 00:42:38 pikhq_: You're scared already! 00:42:53 -!- augur has joined. 00:42:55 pikhq_: An editor where Python serves the purpose of elisp in Emacs. Even _I_ think that's awful. 00:43:05 *groan* 00:44:07 pikhq_: This awful situation has arisen from me writing leaden in Python and thinking that some sort of extension mechanism is probably easier than settings. 00:45:07 Hmm. I'm really thinking that I ought to set up this freaking router that I've had for ages now. 00:45:18 Is it LINKSYS 00:45:36 But I still don't know what to freaking *do* with it, aside from stick a replacement firmware on it. 00:45:49 elliott: D-Link and OpenWRT-able. 00:46:04 And DD-WRT. And a large number of other firmwares. 00:46:06 pikhq_: Fair 'nuff then. 00:46:12 I can never figure out which of OpenWRT/dd-wrt is nicer. 00:46:26 (I own a Linksys router but it wouldn't work with my connection.) 00:48:20 Sadly, I can't make it *that* useful as I would be behind another router that I can't configure. 00:48:25 And I am *not* fucking NATNATing. 00:49:06 pikhq_: Why can't you use the router you bought alone? Is it a combined router-modem you're stuck with? 00:49:15 Are you sure a generic modem wouldn't work? (You on ADSL?) 00:50:16 elliott: Actually, it's my step-dad's router, and he's reluctant to let me do anything to his tech. 00:50:37 pikhq_: I WOULDN'T BLAME HIM, WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT COMPUTERS HA H 00:50:38 *HA HA 00:50:51 His router is likely to blame for my constant dropping connection. 00:55:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:59:34 Why does software force me to write my own. Sheesh. 01:18:52 Hmm. 01:19:02 Looking at Wireshark, I get some weird-ass TCP behavior. 01:19:49 RTT goes along at sub-0.1s and then suddenly jumps to 0.6s... RTT goes down a bit, then jumps again... 01:19:53 Weird. 01:26:31 -!- augur has joined. 01:30:35 Oh hey, Homestuck just stopped making any sense whatsoever. JUST HOW I LIKE IT 01:46:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:46:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:47:44 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 01:48:03 -!- Lymia has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:48:05 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia. 01:48:05 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 01:48:05 -!- Lymia has joined. 02:05:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:17:45 http://codu.org/tmp/PitchBendMadness-2011-02-18.ogg More nonsense. 02:17:53 MAN keybindings in GTK are DIFFICULT. 02:18:00 Gregor: Dear god it hurts. 02:18:01 I love it. 02:18:15 Gregor: This would be excelent game music. 02:18:27 *excellent 02:18:33 OK, making that highest note that high was a mistake. 02:18:39 My poor, poor eardrums. 02:18:53 I LIKE IT. 02:19:07 What I was first trying to do was write some very silly game opening music. Then I started getting too silly. Then I started getting NOT SILLY ENOUGH. 02:19:49 X-D 02:19:53 INSUFFICIENT SILLY 02:20:18 Also, the weird horn trill thing near the beginning was totally a fluke. 02:20:39 pikhq: Bufferbloat? 02:20:59 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:21:02 Gregor: s/weird/awesome/ 02:21:06 Ilari: Quite likely. Though I should note I've actually tried to mitigate it... 02:21:17 (as best as I can *without being able to freaking touch the router*) 02:21:38 elliott: Well that's a given :P 02:21:46 (though bandwidth shaping myself should help the common case, as I'm the heavy bandwidth user here.) 02:22:03 pikhq: Can't you just organise a night-time physical heist? 02:22:11 elliott: He'd notice. 02:22:22 pikhq: I don't mean replacing it. 02:22:27 Just doing what you can with the existing hardware. 02:22:34 Or does fixing it involve turning a gigantic switch from RED to BLUE? :-P 02:22:43 Fixing it involves logging in. 02:22:56 pikhq: And? 02:23:00 Though I *could* brute-force it... 02:23:04 pikhq: You could reset the router settings. 02:23:11 There's always a simple physical way to do it. 02:23:17 And then lose the Wi-Fi password which I don't know. 02:23:26 pikhq: Surely you can heistify an ethernet cable. 02:23:53 pikhq: Brute-forcing might work if he's really, really bad at picking passwords, I guess :P 02:24:06 You could try telnetting in or something, that might even work without a password. 02:26:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:26:17 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 02:26:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:26:21 pikhq: But, uhh, you could heist like this: Physical router reset -> Ethernet cable -> fix shit -> set shit back up -> heistify his computer and fix the password? OK, it's impractical :-P 02:28:57 OMG, greatest almond soda ever. 02:29:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:29:09 This tops every other soda I have ever made. 02:29:10 By miles. 02:29:46 Gregor: ;_; i fucking want some 02:29:53 can't you like 02:29:55 put ti in a box 02:29:56 and mail that box 02:29:57 to me 02:30:00 so i could open it 02:30:02 No :P 02:30:07 and extract the contents (almond soda, "greatest ever") 02:34:06 -!- augur has joined. 02:38:43 -!- nik340 has joined. 02:38:43 -!- nik340 has left (?). 02:42:59 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:43:32 -!- variable has joined. 02:47:47 -!- mattfrog has joined. 02:49:10 -!- mattfrog has left (?). 02:52:12 -!- elliott has set topic: inscrutable, yet AFRO | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 02:58:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:59:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:59:46 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:01:16 Sgeo what on EARTH did you DO 03:01:56 -!- pingveno has joined. 03:02:45 Gregor: Be careful not to do too much cyanide. 03:04:46 Oh, never mind, it's only bitter almonds that contain cyanide. 03:05:53 Gregor: EAGERLY AWAITING: BITTER ALMOND SODA 03:05:59 elliott: Yeahno :P 03:06:00 CALL IT: THE TURING BLEND 03:06:04 ;;;;OHSNAP::: 03:06:09 <<<>>> 03:06:16 elliott, sadly, I have done no one 03:06:20 its funny becauseturing killed himself 03:06:41 ALSO BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING SGEO CAN NOT MAKE ME FACEPALM ABOUT 03:06:44 WHICH IS QUITE AN ACHIEVEMENT REALLY 03:06:51 QUITE AN ACHIEVEMENT 03:06:53 NOT ONE I APPRECIATE THOUGH 03:07:03 I MEAN, SCHEME-WISE, OF THINGS GRAND, GRAND SCHEME OF .. I'M SURE YOU CAN ARRANGE THE WORDS MENTALLY 03:07:10 I MEAN GOSH IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE ALL STUPID. ONLY MOST OF YOU 03:07:29 * Sgeo steals elliott's capslock key 03:08:28 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:10:07 BLANKETS. WHAT WE NEED IS BLANKETS. AND A WORLD WITHOUT HATRED. 03:10:42 SEE SGEO. THE THING YOU ARE ASSUMING IS, THAT I AM USING CAPS LOCK. 03:10:51 NOW, WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE, FOR THIS, ASSERTION; OTHER THAN THAT, I AM TALKING IN CAPITALS 03:10:57 THE ANSWER IS: ZERO EVIDENCE (O, 0) 03:11:02 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:11:03 SO LIEK TO BE THE STFUING UP 03:11:06 OR THE... STFING UP 03:11:07 I GUESS 03:11:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:11:30 FUCK THIS SHIT 03:11:45 COPULATE WITH THIS PILE OF FECES. 03:12:31 * pikhq_ would like to point and laugh at some people. 03:12:38 "May 21, 2011, the world will end." 03:12:50 THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WILL BE SAYING WHEN THE WORLD ENDS 03:12:52 SHUT THE FUCK UP SGEO 03:12:53 SHUT IT 03:12:55 SHUT FOREVER 03:13:05 ANYWAY,,,YAHOO ANSWERS:: 03:13:08 [[Will may 21 2011 be horrible for those left out? 03:13:08 There is plenty of evidence that on 21 May 2011 will be the rapture of the true believers. But for those fet out it will be 6 months of torment,terror and horror as predicted in the book of Revelation chapter 9 verse 5. Then,on 21 October 2011 the unsaved and the entire universe will burned up. 03:13:08 ]] 03:13:11 elliott: I doubt I will be saying much as the sun dies. 03:13:14 IT MAY BE HORRIBLE; THAT IS TRUE . 03:13:22 Camping's trademarks include his deep, sonorous voice coupled with a slow cadence. He is best known for the prediction of Christ's second coming in May 2011. 03:13:23 SONOROUS 03:13:25 THAT'S NOT A FUCKING WORD 03:13:28 WELL IT IS BUT IT'S A DOUCHEBAG WORD 03:13:35 PIKHQ. HOW SONOROUS ARE YOU FEELING LATELY. 03:13:45 EXACTLY 03:13:52 Quite. 03:14:10 I have a deep, sonorous voice. 03:15:13 Anyways. The various rapture predictions tend to be so very comical. 03:15:32 * Sgeo steals elliott's shift keys 03:15:39 DEEP SONOROUS VOICE 03:15:41 MORE LIKE DEEP SONOROUS 03:15:41 UH 03:15:42 VOICE 03:15:49 If any of it came true, though, I would have to declare that at least *one* person alive today is at least 2000 years ago. 03:16:22 (fun fact: in one of the Gospels, Jesus claimed that some people in the audience would live to see the end.) 03:16:29 ONE PERSON ALIVE TODAY IS AT LEAST 2000 YEARS AGO? 03:16:31 YOUR SENTENCES DON'T PARSE DUDE 03:16:39 s/ago/old/ 03:16:39 KINDA LIKE RELIGION HEH <--- CONTEXTUAL JOKE; RELEVANT; 03:16:45 OH. WELL NOW YOU'VE GONE AND RUINED IT. 03:16:51 BAD PIKHQ BAD. 03:17:01 Colorless green dreams sleep furiously! 03:17:38 COLOURLESS GREEN PIKHQ SLEEPS FURIOUSLY AFTER BEING KNOCKED ON THE HEAD BY HOW COOL HE ISN'T 03:17:42 wow that might be the best sentence 03:17:45 guess i'll stop there 03:18:24 * pikhq_ is even *more* amused by those biblical literalists now. 03:18:56 In addition to believing an acid trip, they must clearly *also* believe there is at least one person who is immortal right now. 03:19:05 And that God doomed us all to die. 03:19:12 you're an acid trip lol! 03:19:20 elliott: Revelations. 03:19:23 pikhq_: well clearly we have to INTEGRATE THIS WITH LIKE 03:19:26 THE PLOT OF THE POPULAR MOVIE 03:19:27 "HIGHLANDER" 03:19:30 WOULD THIS NOT PROVIDE CONSISTENCY 03:19:31 It was definitely an acid trip or something similar. 03:19:32 WITH THE BIBLE 03:19:40 WHAT I AM SAYING IS, MAYBE HOLLYWOOD IS ACTUALLY PROPHET. 03:19:45 THINK ABOUT IT. 03:19:51 elliott: Except that God doomed us all to die back in Genesis. 03:20:12 YES. AND NOW HIGHLANDER. 03:20:30 Hmm. Well, it could *work* if that one immortal person is Lazarus. 03:20:36 After all, Lazarus did die. 03:21:52 CONGRATULATIONS PIKHQ 03:21:54 I AM NOW A CHRISTIAN 03:21:59 YOUR LOGIC HAS CONVERTED ME. 03:22:13 FAILURE IS MINE 03:22:21 * elliott checks off "GET CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY BY PIKACHU" off LIST OF THINGS TO DO. 03:22:28 I KNEW I WOULD GET IT DONE SOMETIME 03:22:43 I think it is proper that eventually you are going to be dead. Otherwise it will be overpopulation? 03:23:47 zzo38: Or there's no urge to reproduce beyond environmental capacity. 03:24:06 Which an omnipotent deity could do with ease. 03:27:47 Of course, there's a lot of things that an omnipotent deity could trivially do to make this a better world. 03:28:19 Every instance of someone being even a slight ass, for instance, could be prevented. 03:28:45 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:28:48 All natural disasters. 03:29:05 All diseases. 03:29:35 If God exists, he's a lazy, apathetic bastard. 03:30:19 Which conflicts with, well, most all monotheistic religions. 03:30:31 -!- elliott_ has joined. 03:30:32 pikhq pikhq pikhq 03:30:33 can you hear me 03:30:35 can you hear the things i am saying 03:30:40 yes 03:30:41 yes you can 03:30:54 pikhq_: there has been some INSANE server situation! me and zzo38 were talking. but we did not see your messages, that are on clog. 03:30:55 and you, did not see ours! 03:30:56 THEREFORE 03:30:59 elliott_: 聴いてるよ！ 03:31:00 respond so i can verify that you are hearing me 03:31:01 oh good 03:31:08 Which an omnipotent deity could do with ease. 03:31:09 zzo38: Overpopulation only if population increases. 03:31:09 I think that if people learn to be immortal, that it is proper for mortal creatures to eat those who are immortal. 03:31:15 ...what. 03:31:15 i would `addquote that but there is a limit to the amount of crazy that HackEgo can hold 03:31:15 and that would SO go over quota. 03:31:15 elliott: Eventually the population will be increases, ALL THE TIME. That is why you have to be caution!! 03:31:16 zzo38: Why does the population have to increase? 03:31:18 Reproductive urges would become basically obsolete in the face of immortality. 03:31:22 And at that point could be easily removed. 03:31:24 elliott: It doesn't *have* to, but it does anyways. And it does because it can. 03:31:26 Thus, no more population increase. 03:31:28 zzo38: By what logic? 03:31:30 What is the quota, 65536? If so, we are still not over the quota yet. 03:31:32 (I mean in HackEgo) 03:31:34 wait 03:31:36 zzo38 03:31:38 are you actually just a really advanced markov chain 03:31:40 elliott: I do not want to have children, but that is simply my choice. I do not want to be married either. OK 03:31:43 elliott: And I am not just a really advanced markov chain. 03:31:45 my perspective has just totally changed. best markov chain ever! 03:31:47 oh. 03:31:51 zzo38: it seems that according to tunes.org we are not here. 03:31:53 Almmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmond soda! 03:31:55 * Disconnected (). 03:32:03 pikhq_: but the only relevant line is 03:32:06 I think that if people learn to be immortal, that it is proper for mortal creatures to eat those who are immortal. 03:32:20 what i am saying is: cannibalism. 03:32:26 Gregor 03:32:28 are you here 03:33:02 don't think he is. 03:33:03 so pikhq_ 03:33:05 you can hear me right. 03:33:18 zzo38: Overpopulation only if population increases. 03:33:18 I think that if people learn to be immortal, that it is proper for mortal creatures to eat those who are immortal. 03:33:18 ...what. 03:33:18 i would `addquote that but there is a limit to the amount of crazy that HackEgo can hold 03:33:18 and that would SO go over quota. 03:33:18 elliott: Eventually the population will be increases, ALL THE TIME. That is why you have to be caution!! 03:33:18 zzo38: Why does the population have to increase? 03:33:18 Reproductive urges would become basically obsolete in the face of immortality. 03:33:18 If Heaven can exist, why does Earth exist? 03:33:18 And at that point could be easily removed. 03:33:19 elliott: It doesn't *have* to, but it does anyways. And it does because it can. 03:33:19 Thus, no more population increase. 03:33:19 zzo38: By what logic? 03:33:19 What is the quota, 65536? If so, we are still not over the quota yet. 03:33:19 (I mean in HackEgo) 03:33:19 wait 03:33:19 zzo38 03:33:19 are you actually just a really advanced markov chain 03:33:19 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 03:33:20 elliott: I do not want to have children, but that is simply my choice. I do not want to be married either. OK 03:33:20 elliott: And I am not just a really advanced markov chain. 03:33:20 my perspective has just totally changed. best markov chain ever! 03:33:20 oh. 03:33:20 zzo38: it seems that according to tunes.org we are not here. 03:33:20 Almmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmond soda! 03:33:20 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:33:21 The tunes.org logs looks like something mixed up 03:33:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:33:44 now that was weird 03:33:59 wtfbbq 03:34:05 lol what 03:34:11 ok i just saw 03:34:11 myself 03:34:12 talking 03:34:16 did you guys just see all my log 03:34:17 that i pasted 03:34:18 Finally it seems to be fix a bit. 03:34:18 for pikhq 03:34:20 I saw you and zzo38 talking. 03:34:23 right 03:34:23 but 03:34:27 did you see me paste a log 03:34:27 above 03:34:29 you see i reconnected 03:34:32 after realising pikhq was talking to clog 03:34:34 and i was talking to zzo 03:34:38 but pikhq couldn't see that 03:34:39 All messages have received after typing DIE a few times and getting permission denied. 03:34:41 and i could talk to pikhq but not zzo 03:34:48 so um 03:34:49 i pasted a log 03:34:51 and 03:34:52 then 03:34:56 i saw myself and Gregor and it was all ghosts. 03:35:01 this new ircd is erm 03:35:02 stable 03:35:12 Gregor did you see me paste a log. before i talked to zzo38. 03:35:28 BEFORE you talked to zzo38? 03:35:29 No 03:35:50 Gregor: look at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/11.02.18 03:35:56 you can see me pasting the log of a conversation right before i have it :D 03:36:10 I saw the messages on clog a few seconds before I received them in IRC! 03:38:17 But I think it is fixed by now 03:40:26 pikhq_: Gregor: ping 03:41:09 6uod 03:41:09 -!- augur has joined. 03:41:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:41:36 Good lawd 03:42:15 BAH 03:42:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:43:06 elliott_: I saw the log, then I saw what you gays said before that. 03:43:09 Guys. 03:43:13 yeah we gays 03:43:14 The fuck was that, Freud? 03:43:18 me and zzo38 the gays 03:43:24 I also saw a PM from you. 03:43:24 haha so it all came at once just now 03:43:26 this is exciting? 03:43:36 imagine what it must be like in #ubuntu right now. 03:43:39 probably just as confusing as usual. 03:43:40 Actually, it came at once 10 minutes ago, when I was AFK. 03:43:52 oerjan can you hear me 03:43:57 i have this sneaking suspicion that i can only talk to one person at a time 03:44:07 first zzo38, then pikhq_, then... Gregor? and zzo38 together. now you. 03:44:09 Gregor. 03:44:11 Gregor: ping 03:44:21 elliott_: SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP 03:44:26 I can read the messages too. 03:44:28 Gregor: i've said like two things 03:44:32 evidently you are getting flooded :D 03:44:41 Gregor: why do i shut up 03:44:57 pikhq_: do i still got a stable connection to you hi 03:45:08 elliott_: HI 03:45:12 woot woot 03:45:19 -!- Gregor has left (?). 03:45:43 -!- TLUL has joined. 03:45:51 Sgeo: Congrats on asking the big question that is *the* major flaw in traditional monotheism! 03:46:29 I received notice from: fizzie,Sgeo,Leonidas,sebbu2,olsner,variable,dbc,yiyus,clog,elliott_,coppro,Mannerisky,comex_,Gregor,ineiros_,pikhq_,aloril,fizzie,yorick,Gregor,oerjan,tswett,shachaf,mycroftiv,Deewiant,quintopia,SimonRC,Zuu,lifthrasiir,pingveno,Zwaarddijk,jix_,copumpkin. I did receive twice from some 03:46:30 * Gregor (~Gregor@codu.org) has left #esoteric ("Leaving until you stop playing "What's wrong with the network theatre"") 03:46:34 HE'S SO PISSY 03:46:34 "Why the hell would a benevolent, omnipotent God make Heaven, Hell, and Earth, and not just create paradise?" 03:46:36 SO PISSY 03:46:38 zzo38: argh! 03:46:42 don't ping whole sections of the channel like that 03:46:45 you'll annoy/wake up tons of people 03:46:50 pikhq_: paradise is boring 03:46:59 pikhq_: There is no paradise. Paradise is wrong! 03:47:00 quintopia: speak for yourself 03:47:06 pikhq_: the real major flaw is the concept of salvation 03:47:11 quintopia: Under traditional monotheism, after life, good people get paradise. 03:47:16 quintopia, that's just Christianity 03:47:27 Where "good" varies. 03:47:37 Paradise is, in fact, just as wrong as anything else!! 03:47:37 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:47:53 Sgeo: no, that is every western and eastern religion ever 03:48:02 -!- elliott_ has joined. 03:48:04 So, clearly merely being boring is not a problem with the claimed deity. 03:48:06 this is so fun 03:48:16 zzo38 is being annoying, pikhq_ is talking about monotheism, Gregor is raging 03:48:19 quintopia is uh 03:48:22 also talking about monotheism 03:48:23 elliott_, what am I doing? 03:48:25 i am narrating, metaly 03:48:46 quintopia: But, yes, salvation is also quite a bit of an issue. 03:49:10 * quintopia is p damn humanist 03:49:12 Certainly if it were anything like what it's claimed to be, salvation would be both obvious and noteworthy. 03:49:24 quintopia: more like 03:49:25 jewmanist 03:49:27 oh man 03:49:29 transjewmanism 03:49:31 the idea 03:49:32 that humans 03:49:34 have to stop being jews 03:49:35 and this is good 03:49:37 Imagine a religion whose followers we'd call saints. As a whole. 03:49:40 i am in approval of this philosophy 03:49:49 guys 03:49:51 best philosophy 03:50:06 pikhq_: this is a religion i could get behind 03:50:15 pikhq_: as long as i could still eat cow 03:50:26 quintopia: Indeed, it would very obviously have at least some merit to its claims. 03:50:36 cow ... and PIG 03:50:37 and PIG COW 03:50:41 the legendary: PIG COW 03:50:50 um guys 03:50:58 might this be another pikhq_ quintopia me Sgeo bubble 03:50:59 is zzo38 here 03:51:04 maybe we've transported ourselves 03:51:05 to a mystical 03:51:06 fantasy 03:51:09 unicorn world, with no zzo38 03:51:09 I am of a different opinion, which is of a philosophy that the religion where nobody can be called saints. 03:51:11 Even more so if its followers' every need were provided for. 03:51:12 or not 03:51:16 03:51:23 03:52:02 pikhq_: i sometimes suspect that the amish get more right than most. they have things like *family* and *not being dicks* and don't have things like *murder* and *grand theft* 03:52:11 Ah, hell, let's add more way for a religion to be obviously true. 03:52:20 Sermons at their weekly meetings are done by God. 03:52:32 Personally. 03:52:36 quintopia: but they do have things like *no fucking electricity* and *totally lopsided family trees*! :p 03:52:47 pikhq_: But can they do that? I do not think so? 03:53:10 zzo38: An omnipotent deity would *certainly* be capable of giving weekly speeches all over the world. 03:53:20 NO MAN 03:53:27 WITHOUT FAITH I AM NOTHING 03:53:28 POOF, SEE? 03:53:33 GOD AFTER THAT FUCKING BABEL FISH. THOUGHT YOU WOULD HAVE ALL CAUGHT ON 03:53:35 I'M NOT DOING THAT PROOF STUFF ANY MORE 03:53:35 elliott_: i think no electricity is a reasonable trade for no murder. it'd be nice if we could get both, though 03:54:06 quintopia: well no i think electricity is more important in the short term. because a world without electricity and with no murder is very obviously non-ideal, since such a world is very likely to have e.g. death 03:54:09 elliott_: Jesus was claimed to be in the habit of giving proof like it was candy. 03:54:17 pikhq_: i know a few religions where speeches are done by an incarnation of god on a weekly or daily basis 03:54:17 The reason they do not use electricity, is to save energy. 03:54:18 quintopia: and electricity is kinda vital to the whole superintelligence scenario. 03:54:22 pikhq_: we call these things cults 03:54:26 so in the short term it is preferable to have electricity. 03:54:32 because it causes much fewer deaths in the long-run. 03:54:32 elliott_: the amish have no electric bill! 03:54:36 zzo38: no, they don't use it because they don't like it 03:54:38 quintopia: CONVINCING 03:54:46 elliott_: they are still okay if the grid goes down! 03:54:53 quintopia: that's only a problem in ameridumb 03:54:55 which is like america 03:54:55 but dumb 03:54:57 but wait 03:54:58 THAT IS AMERICA 03:55:00 quintopia: How many of them have just straight-up had God descend from on high and speak once a week, every week, at every relevant congregation simultaneously? 03:55:03 elliott_: THEY ARE STILL OKAY IF A MASSIVE EMP DETONATES ALL OVER EARTH 03:55:20 quintopia: APART FROM ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE THEY DEPEND ON YOU MEAN? 03:55:43 (THEY OWN CARS SO IT'S CLEARLY NON-ZERO) 03:55:43 elliott_: they use horse carts 03:55:43 no, some of them own cars 03:55:47 this is a Fact, spelled with a capital F and then act 03:55:55 they have horse cart backups 03:55:58 Or you can just walk, if it is not too far. 03:55:58 The Amish are not a monolithic group. 03:56:04 Is zzo38's bug-everybody mode strictly necessary? 03:56:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:56:25 shachaf: I don't know. 03:56:37 shachaf: apparently. 03:56:45 he invokes it on a semi-regular basis. 03:56:51 i *did* scold him :p 03:56:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:57:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:57:32 * Sgeo blames zzo38 03:57:51 Sgeo: You blamed me for what? 03:57:57 Freedom of speech? 03:58:00 The netsplits 03:58:02 Or energy? 03:58:21 And I'm to blame for Freedom. And God. 03:58:33 Sgeo: I did not touch the netsplits! 03:58:51 Sgeo: he did the netsplits. both American and Chinese netsplits 03:59:02 AND ENDEAVORED TO COMPLETE TEN SOMERSETS ON SOLID GROUND 03:59:18 devious. 03:59:19 let's ban him. 03:59:29 Really, I did not touch the netsplits! 03:59:39 Do you think I did? 03:59:49 hey hey guys if we just make this log have some more kilobytes 03:59:53 it will be one of the top sized logs ever! 03:59:57 let's make some kilobytes 04:00:10 * Sgeo bytes elliott_ 04:00:10 Dang dawg. 04:00:29 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 04:00:36 Now let's see if this log has some more kilobytes. 04:01:09 MO'TO KIROHÀITO NI SIYÔ! 04:01:14 what IS the top-sized log ever? 04:01:32 35*12 + 04:01:38 (もっとキロバイトにしよう！) 04:01:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 04:01:48 28 04:02:09 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:02:26 * Sgeo estimates that zzo38's statement has 149 and a third XXXs 04:02:51 It occurs to me that I have an IDLE window open, I should just count 04:03:14 Woo, got it right 04:06:48 quintopia: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.05.28 04:06:48 over 400 kilobytes 04:06:48 there are no 300 kilobyte logs. because of science. 04:06:48 quintopia: most of that is bf joust :) 04:06:49 back in the bad old days when strategies were weak and lame? 04:06:49 quintopia: shut your whore mouth. 04:06:49 quintopia: i invented polarity in that log. or the one before it. 04:06:49 did you come up with sieve and kettle then too? 04:06:49 12:07:58 It's donning itself presently. 04:06:49 12:08:02 The goals aren't really lofty 04:06:49 12:08:11 Just "run the program a fuckload of times then average that" 04:06:49 12:08:28 Is "a fuckload" = 21? 04:06:49 12:08:45 No. 04:06:49 12:08:49 That does not take into account... 04:06:49 12:08:52 PoLaRiTy! 04:06:49 12:08:57 Any choice between: SIEVE, and: KETTLE! 04:06:49 12:09:10 ..................................................... 04:06:49 ^^^ lance, never being implemented 04:06:49 quintopia: i think that was actually a day before or whatever. 04:06:49 why did you choose those names? 04:06:49 quintopia: because i didn't choose any other names 04:06:49 does that answer your question? 04:06:49 yes 04:06:49 also 04:06:49 lance is never going to be finished, yes? 04:06:50 it is 04:06:50 it's done apart from one parser bug. as i keep saying. which i will fix when i implement it into report.c. 04:06:50 which i might wait for greggsy to fixed-pointify first. 04:06:50 to make things easier for me 04:06:50 but i HAVE OTHER PROJECTS like SHIRO which needs more fingerprints and LEADEN 04:06:50 so lance remains in its basically-complete state for now. 04:06:50 with nice fucking error messages. 04:06:50 well 04:06:50 shiro is never going to be finished, yes? 04:11:44 quintopia: it's hard to define finished. it passes mycology and has several fingerprints. 04:11:44 not even ccbi implements all fingerprints. i won't either, for similar reasons 04:11:44 so it could be said that no funge-98 will ever be finished 04:11:44 in which case: no, it won't. 04:11:44 The reason I put a lot of X is to make long log file. 04:11:44 which fingerprints are not implemented 04:11:44 quintopia: most of them. or do you mean in CCBI? 04:11:44 FNGR, MVRS, WIND, some others i think. 04:11:44 no 04:11:44 which fingerprints have never been implemented 04:11:45 quintopia: all have been implemented. 04:11:45 but the TRULY insane ones (more insane than time travel) only in rcfunge. 04:11:45 e.g. FNGR, which violates the spec, MVRS, which is just insane, WIND, which is Windows-only, SGNL or something for the same reason 04:11:45 are fingerprints not written in funge itself? 04:11:45 ...no... 04:11:45 okay 04:15:27 Well, they could be. 04:15:33 In a Funge interpreter in Funge. 04:19:32 Is a standard deviation the same as square root of variance? I found two equations for standard deviation, but if you have a list of cards in a set and want to compute the standard deviation of them, which one do you use, the one for population or for sample? 04:19:32 -!- Gregor has joined. 04:19:32 yes 04:19:32 Gregor: we're not done with network theatre 04:19:32 sqrt of variance is the most commonly used number 04:19:33 pikhq_: FORSOOTH, WHAT IS THIS NETWORK I SEE BEFORE ME 04:19:33 MY 04:19:33 WE SHALL HAVE TO CONSULT GREGOR ON THE MATTER 04:19:33 WHAT HO! 04:19:33 quintopia: JESTER, PLAY US A TUNE. 04:19:33 * quintopia kicks elliott_ 04:19:33 HA HA 04:19:33 SUCH AMUSING 04:19:33 ANTICS 04:19:33 Time to document furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls 04:19:33 zzo38: i don't know the conditions under which you divide by n or (n-1)...probably the n-1 thing corrects for the error between using sqrt of variance and sum of abs distances 04:19:33 Gregor: excuse me 04:19:33 theatre. 04:19:33 I have two equations $$\sigma={1\over s_0}\sqrt{s_0s_2-s_1^2}$$ and $$s=\sqrt{s_0s_2-s_1^2\over s_0(s_0-1)}$$ 04:19:33 Gregor: document space_elevator while you're at it >.> 04:19:33 quintopia: Idonno wtf it does :P 04:19:33 interior crocodile elevator 04:19:33 i drive a network movie theater 04:19:39 pikhq_: you be lagged! 04:19:39 I notice that even though they are written differently, it can be written the same way just with -1 omitted 04:19:44 quintopia: sorry you forgot to include space in that sentence 04:20:17 elliott_: i didn't have to because i drove it over you and you, being dead, didn't care 04:20:23 (TeX is especially good for mathematics.) 04:20:27 ohh 04:20:30 ACID BURN 04:20:33 elliott_: LIES AND DECEIT 04:20:39 dies and leceit 04:21:09 From 1908 to 1966, there was a whitelist of books Catholics were allowed to read. 04:21:15 Jeeze. 04:21:19 1966? xD lol 04:21:33 I did not know that. Now I do know. Is it Vatican II that changed that? 04:21:49 I do know Vatican II changed a lot of things. 04:22:14 Vatican 2.0 04:22:32 Before that, there was a blacklist of books. 04:22:37 lol 04:22:38 From 1559 to 1908. 04:22:39 "this blacklist is too long" 04:22:42 "a whitelist would be shorter" 04:22:42 The Index Librorum Prohibitorum. 04:22:44 1559. dayum. 04:22:52 the catholic church sure has wielded power for a long time. 04:23:09 can you even /imagine/ replacing an institution which has existed since 1559 under the same group? 04:23:10 The term "Roman" in Roman Catholic Church comes from the Roman Empire. 04:23:25 As it was a Roman institution. 04:23:29 indeed 04:23:51 Absolutely *crazy* how long it's lasted. 04:24:15 i wonder what they put on it in 1559 :) 04:24:45 "this blacklist is too long" <-- some corner of my mind says maybe they changed because some people used the blacklist as encouragement... 04:24:55 oerjan: OH SURE. CHOOSE THE BORING OPTION. 04:25:24 elliott_: For some time, Bible translations not into Latin. 04:25:31 haha 04:25:35 EVIL EVIL BIBLE TRANSLATIONS! 04:25:47 work of the devil. 04:25:51 basically satan just translates bibles all day. 04:26:09 Much work of science... 04:26:46 "Poem of the Man God" by Saint Valtorta was on there... 04:27:02 Yes, a Catholic saint wrote a banned work. 04:29:24 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:29:24 -!- elliott_ has joined. 04:29:24 we got separated again. le sigh. 04:29:24 In Vatican II, science is no longer prohibited, and it is now permitted to do mass and Bible in non-Latin, too. And many other things also become no longer prohibited. 04:29:24 can you hear me pikhq_ 04:29:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:29:25 Sorry, I suck. Valtorta was never canonised. 04:29:25 zzo38: matlab uses sqrt(sum(v.*v)/(n-1)) for its std function. i'd say that's the standard to go by 04:29:25 Mary Kowalska (Saint Faustina), however, was... 04:29:34 ... WTF? 04:29:42 I'm seeing myself talk, apparently. 04:29:53 yeah 04:29:55 such fun 04:29:56 And that definitely confirms WTF has been happening. 04:29:56 can you hear me 04:29:58 can you hear my words 04:29:58 say yes 04:30:00 Yes. 04:30:02 :D 04:30:04 i couldn't before 04:30:07 so i had to reconnect 04:30:18 quintopia: OK. I can make Plain TeXnicard use that equation. But probably without the square root, unless I can make square root with integers in a good way. 04:30:19 So, it seems that at random, the router decides to buffer like mad. 04:30:27 pikhq: well, these _are_ the end times. 04:30:31 And in doing so kills TCP. 04:30:40 so pikhq i'm reading this old log where you tell me that defining CFLAGS in a tiny makefile for a one-file program is a sin because someone imaginary might use a non-gcc compiler and they'll have to type "CFLAGS=" to get it to work :D 04:30:42 obviously time itself is starting to break down. 04:30:50 oerjan: cooooooool 04:30:56 does that mean i don't have to go to bed? 04:31:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:31:46 zzo38: like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_square_root 04:32:09 either that, or that you already _are_ in bed. i suggest you go and check. 04:32:19 oerjan: well yes i am. 04:32:21 but i'm not sleeping. 04:32:25 supposedly i have to 04:35:27 quintopia: OK. 04:38:01 OK GOODNIGHT 04:38:07 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:40:11 Gregor: ELLIOTT IS GONE 04:40:27 Hooray X-P 04:40:29 YOU MAY BRING OUT THE HARD LIQUORS NOW 04:41:00 i hear a jameson root beer float is quite nice 04:41:09 have you made root beer? 04:42:06 Can you make *square* root beer? 04:42:16 How many decimal places should the standard deviation have? 04:42:27 And how many decimal places for the mean? 04:43:52 you need probably twice as many decimals for the mean as you want to have in the stdev 04:44:10 i don't really care what you pick, honestly 04:49:07 quintopia: I haven't, the requisite roots for real root beer aren't actually very easy to get, plus that's not the kind of soda I make :P 04:49:38 Ohhey, I could buy gentian root extract ... I could make something like Moxie 8-D 04:50:19 OMG, if I bought sarsaparilla extract and gentian root extract ... 04:51:06 ? 04:51:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:51:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 04:51:28 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:51:37 Sassafras extract is too expensive, I wonder how vital it is ... 04:51:45 I found the other equation for variance: The variance is equal to the mean of the square minus the square of the mean. 04:52:25 Sassafras is like $10/oz >_> 04:52:50 zzo38: correct 04:53:05 I suppose an ounce is still enough for like 12 liters of soda though ... 04:53:32 And that is easy to do from $s_0$ and $s_1$ and $s_2$ 04:53:53 i don't know what those numbers are 04:55:52 $s_0$ is the number of items. $s_1$ is the sum. $s_2$ is the sum of squares. 04:57:03 "Python programmers can stop chuckling now." 04:57:45 o.O' 04:57:46 So now the variance is: $$ \left({s_2\over s_0}\right)-\left({s_1\over s_0}\right)^2 $$ 04:57:50 [In a part of this style guide talking about avoiding empty while loops, unless there's a comment inside the body will be, in order to avoid accidental while; 04:57:54 http://www.artlogic.com/styleguide/formatting.html 04:57:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:57:59 "Hello" is first attested in the 1930s. 04:58:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:59:02 Erm, 1830s. 04:59:04 not 1930s. 04:59:11 pikhq: ??? to the first, *eh* to the second :P 05:00:08 The hell sort of greeting was used before then? 05:00:22 howdy 05:00:30 Texas-ism. 05:00:32 good day 05:00:42 (abbr. of "How do you do?", IIRC) 05:00:44 no, how do you do long predates texas 05:00:55 Yes, but "howdy" doesn't. 05:01:02 i was abbreviating :P 05:08:15 When moving around the terms to make a single fraction, it gets the same as the square of the $\sigma$ equation for standard deviation. 05:08:37 yes 05:08:57 that formula is just a different way of writing variance. it's the same number 05:09:00 gives the same stf 05:09:02 st 05:09:04 gah 05:09:05 stdev 05:09:21 Good {morning,day,evening} 05:11:14 sup gregs 05:12:32 I was actually providing a potential answer to "The hell sort of greeting was used before then?" 05:12:56 i had suggested good day already 05:13:24 In the explanation of the algorithms in TeXnicard, I used $Q_0$ to represent the minimum, $Q_4$ for the maximum, $Q_2$ for the median, although the value returned will actually be double the median since the median is not necesarily integer. 05:14:11 it's not clear to me why you need so much stats in a program for making cards... 05:14:12 Is $Q_0$ a standard notation for the minimum? 05:14:31 yeah probably 05:15:17 pikhq: "Hello" is an alteration of "hallo" (1781), which is an alteration of "holla" (1580) 05:15:58 quintopia: The reason is, in case you need to know the average of the cards, and so on.... it just calculates $s_0$ and $s_1$ and $s_2$ and $Q_0$ and $2Q_2$ and $Q_4$, and then in your template you can compute whatever statistics you need from those. 05:16:03 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 05:16:07 And apparently "hello" is an Americanism, surplanting the English "hullo" 05:16:27 it's a good word 05:16:36 but the best word america invented was "O.K." 05:16:42 EVERYONE uses it now 05:16:48 In Italian they say "ready" when answering the telephone. 05:16:50 even countries that don't say hello 05:17:05 I have also heard of one person that said "telephone" when answering the telephone. 05:17:20 And the inventor of telephone said "ahoy", I think. 05:17:25 I always just say "Yeah, what?" gruffly. 05:17:35 Gregor: "Holla" was not a gre3eting. 05:17:43 Nor was it a greeting. 05:17:46 pikhq: Holla! 05:17:54 Obviously it is *now*. 05:17:57 :P 05:18:28 The reason I can think of for saying "telephone" is so that the people in the next room know that they are speaking on the telephone. 05:18:31 Gregor: i like "yo" and "sup dude" for friends :P 05:18:42 -!- mtve has joined. 05:18:56 When people say "What's up?" to me (or variations thereof), I point up and say "That way" 05:19:08 i think that's usually how i answer the phone for my dad 05:19:11 "what's up?" 05:19:17 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:19:18 On the rare occasion that I actually want a proper greeting, I say "'ello" 05:19:23 I just say "the ceiling" or "the sky" when asked what's uyp. 05:19:30 zzo38: Better than the Japanese phone greeting, though. 05:19:35 More often I just use "hey" as a call to attention then dive right into whatever I'm trying to say. 05:19:51 "fukkuuyu" 05:19:51 Which is an informal greeting that developed out of an *insanely* formal and archaic greeting. 05:20:14 When answering the telephone I say "hello". When writing a letter I still begin with "Dear" and end with "Sincerely". 05:20:35 I ... I never pronounce the 'h' in "hello" ... 05:20:44 i always do 05:20:49 Most people I have seen who type messages in their computer never begin with "Dear" or end with "Sincerely". 05:20:49 * quintopia calls gregor 05:20:55 'ello 05:20:58 Why is that? 05:21:11 because a computer is not a typewriter 05:21:13 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:21:19 ("Moshi-moshi" comes from "mōshi", a grammatical form of "mōsu". Humble formal "to speak".) 05:21:19 zzo38: Because pleasantries are not useful? 05:21:27 and TCP is not an envelope 05:21:42 (one would use "mōsu" when, say, talking to the Emperor.) 05:22:09 Also, I always enter a colon after the name after "Dear", never a comma. In my opinion a comma doesn't make sense there, so I put a colon instead. 05:22:21 zzo38: Pleasantries and formalities have simply fallen out of use recently. 05:22:32 -!- augur has joined. 05:22:56 It's nothing to do with computers in particular; the same change is all over the place. 05:23:08 (how often do you say "sir" or "ma'am", pray tell?) 05:23:09 Dear zzo38: Imagine having to waste 30 characters of every tweet on a salutation and signature. Sincerely, quintopia #enoughroomforahashtag? 05:23:32 (that message was actually 140 chars!) 05:23:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:23:57 I don't use Twitter, but Twitter is not a letter anyways. However, it is still probably the limit is too short. 05:25:30 What is the "correct" spelling of "couldn't've"? 05:26:00 I sometimes write letters by computer, and sometimes by hand. I use the same conventions either way, including the date at the top. In fact, I have typed such a letter recently (using TeX and a laser printer) and mailed it (actually, given it to someone who was going there to deliver it; so I needed no stamps). 05:26:02 Gregor: I don't see why that wouldn't be correct. 05:26:17 pikhq: Two apostrophes? Blech! 05:26:29 Gregor: no, it is in fact correc 05:26:33 And I signed my name by pen in Japanese after it was printed out. 05:26:33 Either that or "Couldn't h've". :P 05:26:39 quintopia: Two apostrophes? Blech! 05:26:39 apostrophes everywhere you omit letters 05:26:54 zzo38: 日本語で？ 05:26:56 if you don't want to use apostrophes, don't abbreviate 05:27:11 zzo38: でも日本では判子を使う。…… 05:27:15 quintopia: What if you're spelling something somebody else said smartypants. 05:27:44 Gregor: Invoke the spirit of Mark Twain before you write; it'll make things easier. 05:28:05 Gregor: un abbreviate their words. it's common to do so 05:28:09 pikhq: How do I do that? Do I need to sacrifice another goat? 05:28:23 pikhq: I did wrote the name in Japanese only, but that just means "Japanese" it doesn't mean what I wrote. I typed the letter in English. 05:28:47 I think zzo38's name is Mel Kaye 05:28:49 quintopia: I do not think that it is very common to do so. It makes people sound somewhat like Spock. 05:28:57 zzo38: Still should have used a hanko. 05:29:16 (I do commonly sign my name using Japanese even in many things that are English.) 05:29:18 pikhq: it is common in journalism to reduce abbreviations down to the "most common" ones 05:29:50 On cheques I sign it using both English and Japanese. But I rarely use cheques; I prefer to do all payments in cash as much as possible. 05:29:50 quintopia: It is also common in journalism to blatantly lie. Your point? 05:30:09 zzo38, are you Mel Kaye? 05:30:14 zzo38: Hardly anyone uses checks these days. 05:30:20 pikhq: lying is not considered a journalistic standard. un-abbreviation for clarity is. 05:30:55 quintopia: It's the most common act of many "news" reporting entities, however. 05:31:27 pikhq: also, most people. 05:31:33 pikhq: Most people use credit cards though, I think. I have received credit card applications and I just discard them. I almost always pay in cash and accept payments in cash. I sometimes (but rarely) use a cheque. 05:31:49 zzo38: I use cash & debit, personally. 05:31:56 zzo38: debit cards are the WAY OF THE FUTURE 05:32:00 at least until post-scarcity 05:32:15 Credit cards are pretty solidly stupid. 05:32:30 Okay, well, not *inherently* stupid, just stupid the way most people use them. 05:32:45 I don't use debit cards either. 05:32:57 any good reason? 05:33:05 Probably anonymity. 05:33:15 Because I prefer to pay in cash. 05:33:35 i need to get some liquid currency 05:33:38 I don't want them to stop accepting cash. 05:33:40 gold or silver 05:33:49 something that can survive bank crashage 05:33:52 and economy crashage 05:34:17 How many places will accept payment by gold coins and silver coins? 05:34:38 modern businesses? only pawn shops... 05:34:45 but *people* will accept them 05:34:50 If you have some gold, and you make it round, will they accept it? 05:34:52 and when the economy has collapsed 05:35:00 they will accept them long before they accept cash 05:35:21 zzo38: they'll accept it even not-round as long as its sufficiently pure 05:35:22 quintopia: Well, if you get the right coins modern businesses will be *obligated* to accept them for debts. 05:35:34 Not that you'd want to actually use them that way, but hey. 05:35:34 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:35:39 pikhq: yes. that's the kind i plan on getting 05:35:56 (unless you like throwing a thousand dollars away) 05:36:04 U.S. mints have good quality guarantees on silver coinage 05:36:20 i can be sure the worth of the coin 05:36:33 Yeah, I'd imagine the US mint produces good coins. And certainly nice designs. 05:36:42 So worth it in *that* respect. 05:36:51 Just not worth it if you intend to use them as legal tender. 05:36:54 yes 05:37:11 Unless you're rich and have a sense of humor. 05:37:16 i want them to use when "legal tender" becomes a nonsense term 05:37:47 Quite honestly, I doubt that gold and silver are going to be your preferred choices there. 05:37:58 quintopia: Yes, when such a things as that happens, it might be useful to make silver coins and gold coins. 05:38:10 Unless you intend to have it as a store of wealth for an interregnum of sorts, that is. 05:38:24 pikhq: gold and silver retain value. it's weird, but it happens. 05:38:24 Because then they will stop accepting banknotes and government coins. 05:38:34 Otherwise, I'd suggest investing in somewhat more immediately useful commodities, such as toilet paper or canned goods. 05:38:46 yes, it's just until a different sort of economy appears 05:38:56 to tide me over until then 05:39:04 quintopia: If the government completely collapses, your gold and silver aren't going to be highly desired. 05:39:15 More immediate needs are pressing. 05:39:15 pikhq: more desired than printed cotton 05:39:22 Well, that much is true. 05:39:27 i expect to have the immediate concerns covered 05:39:33 They will at least *possess* value beyond being novelties. 05:39:42 food, guns, ammo, fuel 05:40:15 (i expect if this comes to pass, looters will be quite a problem. being armed is essential.) 05:40:31 Still, a stock of canned goods, toilet paper, etc. would be more useful. 05:40:46 Immediately useful commodities work so much better for barter than hypothetically useful ones. 05:41:08 (presuming they're commodities most people will actually desire) 05:41:13 actually, MREs retain nutritional value better than canned food 05:41:33 Yes, but canned goods are very easy to obtain. 05:41:38 Currently, that is. 05:41:42 the idea is to not *need* to trade for most things until it's been going on a while 05:41:45 I'd like to try MREs 05:41:51 Is it possible to survive on them? 05:41:54 sure 05:41:56 Sgeo_: Entirely. 05:42:01 that's the point of them 05:42:02 :D 05:42:07 * Sgeo_ wants! 05:42:25 Ilari probably has choice things to say on their nutritional value, though. 05:42:26 also, 5 gallon buckets of wheat flour and rice and sugar are good to have around 05:42:31 they last a long time 05:42:34 esp. the sugar 05:42:44 Can't be *that* bad, though; the military doesn't exactly want soldiers in ill health. 05:43:05 no, they have all the nutritional value you could need for quite a while. it's the flavor that leaves you wanting :P 05:43:19 -!- boysetsfrog has joined. 05:43:19 ilari is/was military? 05:43:30 quintopia: No, he's a nutrition nut among other things. 05:43:34 Is it possible for civilians to get MRE? 05:43:43 yes 05:43:49 check any army surplus store 05:43:50 legally, I mean 05:43:52 Ok 05:44:02 you can order online too 05:44:13 They're labeled "U.S. Government Property, Commercial Resale is Unlawful". 05:44:17 However, there is no such law. 05:44:39 and the gov't itself resells them :P 05:44:53 Also, the contractors who manufacture MREs also sell essentially the same product to consumers. 05:45:00 (different branding, basically) 05:45:07 Why do they say that if there is no such law? Is it a lie? 05:45:22 yes 05:45:32 zzo38: There is a regulation requiring them to make that claim on the MREs. 05:45:41 zzo38: There is, however, no truth to the claim at all. 05:47:28 pikhq: Does that mean there is a law requiring them to make that lie about the laws? Is there a law that requires the military to lie about everything? 05:47:42 zzo38: Regulation != law. 05:50:28 I cannot find anything on Wikipedia about using $Q_0$ for the minimum and $Q_4$ for the maximum. (And I haven't looked anywhere else) So how do you think it might be standard? 05:51:57 does it matter? 05:52:14 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:52:24 I am just curious.... 05:54:09 What other notations are commonly used for minimum, median, maximum? 05:54:30 "min" "med" "max" :P 05:55:25 I mean, with mathematical notations such as letters with subscripts or accent mark and stuff like that. 05:57:19 Q_2 *is* standard for median 05:57:43 Q_0 and Q_4 seem logical extensions of the quartile notation 05:57:47 i'd stay with that 05:58:42 boysetsfrog! 05:58:53 That is also why I have chosen those ones. I do not really plan to change it. 05:59:01 hello 06:20:45 QtWebkit's final link command is over 55K characters long. 06:20:53 !bfjoust 06:20:55 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 06:20:57 boysetsfrog: ... boysetsfrog ... on fire? 06:20:59 Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 06:21:02 ... on little brother? 06:21:20 Gregor: Webkit makes the linker cry. 06:21:30 XD 06:21:30 pikhq: I switched to gold just for WebKit :P 06:21:42 Takes over a minute to link. TO LINK. 06:21:50 Gregor: Imagine if you were using LTO. 06:21:57 pikhq: *sob* 06:22:09 ... That'd probably make a *significant* improvement on Webkit, though. 06:22:17 Not many of those symbols are exported. 06:24:02 pikhq: QtWebKit doesn't bother with export lists, every symbol is exported. 06:24:03 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:24:09 Gregor: *vomit* 06:24:25 That makes the dynamic linker really cry. 06:24:37 NORLY? X-P 06:24:44 Especially on Windows. 06:25:05 Where the entire binary *has to be dynamically patched to account for the load address of the library*. 06:25:50 Actually, on second thought, it's always going to be horrible there. Never mind. 06:25:54 Still. 06:26:18 You could probably make Webkit quite a bit faster on x86 just by limiting exported symbols. 06:26:27 And perhaps a bit faster on x86_64... 06:26:49 The (non-Qt) Windows build probably does control exported symbols. 06:26:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:26:59 It actually wouldn't make that big of a difference. 06:27:03 They only don't control it in Qt because Qt is portable, and export lists aren't. 06:27:16 ... 06:27:24 That's horrifying. 06:27:40 So, *Qt* could be made much faster by doing that. 06:28:53 pikhq: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/JavaScriptCore/JavaScriptCore.exp 06:29:55 Since the code itself has no compiler-specific export control. 06:30:00 Amazing, I know. 06:31:01 So, not using GCC's visibility support at all. 06:31:14 COMPILER-SPECIFIC OMG 06:31:27 Of course the export list is compiler-specific anyway, but at least it's not IN THE CODE 06:31:36 "For example, a huge C++ template-based library which was tested (the TnFOX Boost.Python bindings library) now loads in eight seconds rather than over six minutes!" 06:31:52 Yes, it's that big of a deal. 06:31:54 ... six ... minutes? 06:32:04 Boost is frightening. 06:32:27 WebKit has its own template framework with a wonderful name. 06:32:40 Gregor: Remember that each created instance of a template creates its own set of symbols. 06:32:45 Ayup 06:33:00 And that Boost uses templates as type-level lambda calculus. 06:33:17 Remember that ELF does lazy resolution :P 06:33:25 And nobody cares about shitty Windows ;) 06:34:01 Still absurd. 06:34:12 Just like megabyte-sized symbol tables are absurd. 06:34:23 (megabyte as an order of magnitude, there, BTW) 06:35:25 $ du -h libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0 && strip libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0 && du -h libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0 06:35:25 677M libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0 06:35:25 55M libQtWebKit.so.4.9.0 06:35:27 lol 06:35:55 Yeaaah, C++ is crazy. 06:36:00 Bloat: 55MB. Extra bloat: 622MB 06:36:23 ... Is that *seriously* 622MiB of fucking symbol tables? 06:37:04 OKSLEEPITIMENOWBAI 06:39:17 bai gregs 06:47:31 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 06:48:15 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 06:51:12 :\ 06:51:15 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:51:44 :\ 06:52:20 !bfjoust chilling (++--++-)*-1 07:02:40 Score for quintopia_chilling: 4.8 07:25:35 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:33:42 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:35:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:40:50 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 07:41:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:45:33 -!- mtve has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:03 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 08:06:00 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:20:53 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 08:24:00 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:37:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:55:02 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 08:57:59 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:03:33 -!- hiato has joined. 09:03:42 -!- hiato has changed nick to orcus. 09:03:49 -!- orcus has changed nick to hiato. 09:03:53 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit). 09:10:51 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 09:13:58 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:14:37 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:25:47 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 09:28:46 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:39:08 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:49:40 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:17:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:19:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:19:44 -!- variable has joined. 10:27:54 pikhq_, it was probably 622MiB of debug symbol :p 10:33:16 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:33:45 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 10:56:11 -!- pikhq has joined. 10:56:33 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:59:12 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:08:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:12:44 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:21:54 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:23:49 -!- pingveno has joined. 11:25:28 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 11:28:42 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:33:35 -!- jix_ has quit (Quit: restarting). 11:33:54 -!- jix has joined. 11:34:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:36:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:36:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Changing host). 11:36:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:50:32 hm mobile camera photos from inside a moving car end up quite bad. 11:53:42 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:07:08 -!- aloril has joined. 12:09:50 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:13:18 fizzie, anyway, I decided to upload two of the images I mentioned above 12:13:30 http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/misc/snow1.jpg and http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/misc/snow2.jpg 12:13:51 fizzie, and that horrible jpeg compression is what my mobile phone give me on highest quality setting 12:15:42 You with your weird 110 km/h speed limits. (Highways here are generally 100 km/h during the winter, 120 km/h during the summer.) 12:16:24 And yes, the quality leaves something to be desired. 12:16:40 fizzie, we recently (a year or two ago) got the new speeds 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 12:16:48 fizzie, haven't seen any actual 120 sign yet 12:17:16 before we only had the usual 30,50,70,90,110 12:17:36 80 km/h is our default non-highway "standard out-of-the-city road" speed. 12:17:52 (I think.) 12:17:56 fizzie, well that would be 70 or 90 here. But more recently it could be 80 as well 12:18:05 depends on the conditions of the road of course 12:18:20 fizzie, I believe it is generally 70 on smaller ones. 12:19:15 I don't think I've ever seen 90/110 here; there's 70 on some of the main "city highway" style roads, and 30 in some residential areas, and 50 (along with 40) is quite common in city streets. 12:19:16 fizzie, also in the second the asphalt is really red tinted. Not sure why they use that on some parts. 12:19:50 40 is quite rare here, but since it was introduced quite recently I guess that is why 12:19:53 All the roads in Kökar (in Åland) are made of this weird really red asphalt. 12:20:09 fizzie, how strange 12:20:46 fizzie, on that section of that highway the on-ramps (but not the off-ones) are made of it. And the outer lane 12:20:51 (it is two lane with a ditch in the middle there) 12:20:54 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:21:09 fizzie, I have no idea why they selected such a strange design 12:21:18 http://www.napsu.fi/files/images/K/10-07-22--20-56-23--K%C3%B6k%C3%A4r.jpg 12:21:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:21:36 (Image courtesy of Google image search, not mine.) 12:22:04 fizzie, either the colours are off in that or it is a different type of redish asphalt 12:22:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:22:14 I'd say the one here is less muted 12:22:42 fizzie, also it looks like it has larger grains than normal asphalt 12:24:06 Well, maybe. But the reddish color is quite noticeable. I even took a chunk of the asphalt with me home, but it doesn't really look as impressive when there's not a big pile of it. (And I have no clue where the chunk is now, anyway; this was in 1993 or so.) 12:24:32 fizzie, googling suggests it is some sort of extra-durable asphalt that withstands studs better 12:24:45 though so far I haven't any reputable source for this 12:27:39 "Red Asphalt is a series of instructional driver's education videos produced by the California Highway Patrol. The films are known for their graphic depictions of fatal car accidents. Horrendously injured and dismembered bodies are shown in the documentary, typically those of negligent drivers." Nnnoooo, that's not quite it. 12:30:13 fizzie, further googling suggests the Swedish red roads contains a sort of stone called "porphyry". While those on Åland contains something called "rapakivi granite" 12:30:28 still no sort of official sources for it 12:31:21 "Rapakivi is the material used in Åland's Middle Age stone churches." Well, presumably they then have a lot of it, and would use it for roads too. 12:31:48 Funny how they've taken the Finnish word into the name like that. 12:32:05 fizzie, what Finnish word? 12:32:09 the rap... bit? 12:41:33 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 12:42:53 -!- tswett_ has joined. 12:45:32 "rapakivi" == "crumbly rock". 12:45:37 ah I see 12:46:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 12:46:14 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:46:14 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:46:15 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:46:22 Or "mudstone", or something like that. ("Crumbly rock" is what the Wikipedia "rapakivi" article says.) 12:46:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:47:03 -!- HackEgo has joined. 12:47:07 gn 12:54:01 -!- nddrylliog has joined. 13:02:52 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:03:17 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:26:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:26:22 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:42:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:43:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:01:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:03:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:07:43 Today's random plot: http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19.png -- it's the average magnitude of the values left on the tape, averaged over all matches/configurations, from the viewpoint of the 7 best-performing programs. 14:10:21 hmm, curious what "furry furry strapon pegging girls" means 14:10:32 sounds like something that needs downloading of 14:21:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:23:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:24:30 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 14:29:08 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 14:32:13 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:42:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:42:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:43:39 :\ 14:51:43 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:53:42 -!- Lymia has joined. 14:54:21 olsner, hah 14:55:52 fizzie, what about a 3D plot showing how it varies with tape length as well? 14:58:23 olsner: amen brother. leather discipline as well 15:01:23 Vorpal: Maybe. Here's a pcolor plot of all 41 competitors: http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19b.png 15:02:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:02:39 (X axis "100" is opponent's flag, forgot to set labels there.) 15:06:42 fizzie, "pcolor"? 15:06:58 That's just the MATLAB/scipy term for it. 15:07:08 fizzie, so how does one read that plot 15:07:10 Sorry, MATLAB/matplotlib. 15:07:40 You read it the same way as the previous plot, except the Y axis value is indicated by color. 15:08:04 fizzie, so it says nothing about tape length? 15:08:44 Yes, it's again the same average-over-all. 15:09:08 Same plot as before, except with all programs on it, basically. 15:09:16 fizzie, also what about negative values? How do you show a value that is between 0 and -127 at best 15:09:24 -128* 15:09:46 fizzie, surely the signed magnitude is more interesting here. 15:09:53 The numbers are absolute differences from zero. 15:10:00 fizzie, ah 15:10:09 And no, I don't think it is: averaged over positive/negative polarities, it's probably going to be rather zeroish. 15:10:16 Maybe not quite, but still. 15:10:21 I didn't mean that 15:10:24 hm 15:10:26 or wait 15:10:55 fizzie, signed magnitude as opposed to unsigned magnitude 15:11:09 fizzie, think abs() on a char vs. casting to an unsigned char 15:11:24 It is abs() on a char, yes. 15:11:28 right 15:12:53 fizzie, did you do that author-variance/similarity thing I suggested btw? 15:14:23 No, it's still on the list. There's a bit few programs per author for that, though. 15:14:34 fizzie, hm true 15:14:51 At least on the hill at one time. 15:14:52 fizzie, what about looking back over historical programs that are no longer on the hill as well? 15:15:03 fizzie, he keeps the whole thing in hg after all 15:15:03 That could work. 15:15:06 Yes. 15:15:11 !bfjoust 15:15:17 well. 15:15:18 Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 15:15:22 ah 15:19:45 http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19c.png -- there's the same thing for FFSPG shown as a function of tape length. 15:20:22 Based on that, FFSPG doesn't seem to be doing so well for the shortest tapes. 15:21:03 Perhaps I should do full dpoints-style score tables for each tape length separately, or in some other way show the per-tape-length scores. 15:22:02 http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19c2.png if you want to compare to allegro. 15:25:07 (Incidentally, those plots stretch all tapes to 100 cells with linear interpolation for the averaging, which is probably why they have nice slides instead of sudden jumps.) 15:33:28 back 15:33:32 fizzie, nice graphs 15:34:56 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 15:34:57 fizzie, but yes doing it so they have jumps rather than semi-continuous gradients would be better 15:35:29 The averaged-over-all-lengths plots are going to have (noisy) gradients anyway because the tape borders hit other locations. 15:35:47 http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19cn.png has the per-tape-length graph with 'nearest'-style interpolation instead of 'linear', though. 15:35:47 fizzie, well right, I meant for the per-tape-length ones 15:36:19 fizzie, you said you used matlab for these? Not octave? 15:36:46 No, Python + numpy + scipy + matplotlib. 15:36:59 The latter just is very MATLAB-inspired when it comes to names. 15:37:04 http://zem.fi/~fis/tape19cn.png <-- is that FFSPG or allegro? 15:37:22 fizzie, ah 15:37:47 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:40:15 Hee, the per-tape-length plot is nice. I'll try to get labels on it and put it somewhere. 15:42:11 fizzie, something else that might be fun: average length and variance in the length (in "turns" or whatever) of the battles that a given plays. Possibly sorted into win/lose/tie groups 15:43:09 I have average lengths already somewhere per each program-pair. 15:43:19 http://zem.fi/~fis/cycles15.png 15:43:32 wait, what is the scale here 15:43:36 The color-bar labels are in units of 10^x cycles; that's why it tops up at 5. 15:43:41 (10^5 eg. 100k cycles.) 15:43:43 ag 15:43:45 ah* 15:44:01 I couldn't figure out how to do a proper logscale-in-the-color-axis plot so that it'd do the labels right. :p 15:44:14 You can see how definder2 makes all the matches long. 15:44:40 fizzie, would still be nice to see how long the battles against itself are. Sure they will all be ties but it would help detect defenders/rushers 15:45:16 Perhaps I should play those games too; I currently don't. 15:45:28 fizzie, what? 15:45:37 ah 15:45:41 games = battles 15:45:41 XD 15:45:49 Yes, that was confusingly put. 15:46:09 fizzie, my first reaction was "wait, is my ignore list not empty?" 15:46:27 fizzie, anyway I would say that quintopia's good_vibrations forces even longer battles than definder2 15:46:32 http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19.png -- scores (well, points actually) as a function of tape length. 15:46:50 -!- boysetsfrog has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:46:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:47:00 Gregor_return_of_ehird_defend8mwahahaha manages to behave rather differently on even/odd tapes. 15:47:16 And FFSPG indeed is quite a loser on tape length 10. 15:47:25 fizzie, I wonder why 15:48:03 fizzie, defend_9_75 is ... strange 15:48:09 Some others, too; like myndzi_3pass which (based on how bridght that blue is) loses about everything on tape 10. 15:48:10 it is only good at length 10 15:48:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 15:49:13 I should probably at some point collect all the plots (and generate the per-program plots for everyone) into one web page, and then make some sort of a script that updates them all. 15:49:25 Now I think I'll need to go craft some food though. 15:49:41 fizzie, "craft"... oh my 15:49:51 fizzie, I think you need to take a break from mc :P 15:50:22 I probably haven't started MC in a week or so, I just remembered I used to use that verb. :p 15:50:30 fizzie, okay then 15:56:31 -!- augur has joined. 15:58:28 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:03:46 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:04:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:05:29 heh so did everyone turn completely from minecraft to bfjoust now 16:05:51 -!- cheater- has joined. 16:06:13 oerjan: if only 16:09:37 oerjan: I wonder how Gregor's infrastructure would handle 1336282 bfjousters. 16:19:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:19:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 16:19:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:22:50 -!- hiato has joined. 16:23:22 -!- hiato has changed nick to orcus_nine. 16:26:39 I remember the time mc used to mean midnight commander... 16:34:28 fizzie: i _did_ mean everyone on this channel :) 16:34:41 (well who were playing mc in the first place) 16:36:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:36:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:49:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 17:01:48 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 17:04:56 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:09:44 fizzie: Poorly. 17:10:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:11:26 Gregor: Is it a conscious decision that FFSPG does badly on short tapes? 17:11:47 ais523: Latest silly plot: scores as a function of tape length: http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19.png 17:12:20 fizzie: Yes and no. There's nothing I can do about it for its strategy, on short tapes it's likely that they won't change any of my breadcrumbs, so I'll just futz around creating big decoys while they take my flag. 17:14:07 Gregor: on defend9.75, I special-cased a decoy of value more than 1 at tape position 10 as indicating a short tape 17:14:11 in order to avoid its short-tape weakness 17:14:35 Hm, I wonder if that would help FFSPG... 17:15:11 I'm not sure if it helped defend9.75, it seems quite close 17:15:41 ais523: At least it's visible on that plot that defend9_75 does impressively well on tape 10. 17:16:49 yep, but it's by sacrificing performance on 14 or 15 or whatever depending on the opponent, against many opponents 17:17:02 !bfjoust furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls http://sprunge.us/LcVY 17:17:13 I honestly don't think this'll do better :P 17:20:05 Score for Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls: 63.9 17:20:17 Well well. 17:20:19 I can take that. 17:24:56 http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19b.png -- didn't seem to affect average scores on other lengths very much. 17:27:51 I think I shouldn't have released defend9.75 as early as I did, people are testing against it now 17:33:04 Heh, wow: I did a "pcolor" plot (just a single quad colored based on each cell of the matrix) of a 82x861 matrix, and got "numpy.linalg.linalg.LinAlgError: Singular matrix" back. 17:33:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:36:12 Oh, it was just integer-arithmetics of the figure size, tried to do a 0-height image. Aw. 17:37:03 fizzie, what a strange error for that :P 17:38:21 There was a stack trace with the words "inverted" and "transforms" and so on in it; I guess it was inverting the plot-to-image coordinate transformation for some purpose. 17:39:32 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 17:42:31 -!- Lymia__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:52:08 -!- augur has joined. 18:03:44 are 0x0 matrices singular? 18:03:56 it's a philosophical question, really, as I can't even figure out what it would mean to invert them 18:04:05 arguably, all 0x0 matrices are the identity 18:08:14 If they all are the identity, then I'd think they're all nonsingular. 18:08:32 Octave seems to think that det(A) = 1 for a 0x0 A: 18:08:33 octave:1> zeros(0) 18:08:33 ans = [](0x0) 18:08:33 octave:2> det(zeros(0)) 18:08:33 ans = 1 18:13:06 -!- Lymia__ has joined. 18:13:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:13:56 Dammit, where's elliott. 18:14:04 I had TERRIBLE NEWS to relay to him. 18:14:16 Phantom_Hoover: behind you! 18:14:17 * nddrylliog hides. 18:14:25 AHA 18:14:34 I KNEW NDDRYLLIOG WAS REALLY ELLIOTT 18:14:48 ais523: sounds a bit like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element 18:14:58 Phantom_Hoover: it's almost an anagram, too 18:15:23 CUNNING 18:15:50 it's a little known fact that welsh "ndrry" is pronounced like english "e" 18:16:06 -!- Lymia_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:16:17 oerjan, please tell me that's an elaborate mathematical joke. 18:16:48 Phantom_Hoover: the field of one element? it may have started as a joke someone took too seriously? 18:17:13 oerjan, it was invented by a man called Tits. 18:17:49 generalizing so previously impossible objects get a representation is a mathematical tradition, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_function 18:17:57 -!- elliott has joined. 18:18:01 ah there he is! 18:18:04 (iiuc it's very useful, too) 18:18:07 elliott, I HAVE TERRIBLE NEWS TO RELAY 18:18:14 ? 18:18:34 APT Guy has a conditional offer to do CS at university if he gets a C in maths. 18:18:44 Guess the university? 18:18:53 GLASGOW? 18:18:59 Strathclyde. 18:19:05 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 18:19:06 -> 18:19:09 Epigram is not safe! 18:19:14 Epigram? 18:19:16 * nddrylliog wakes up 18:19:18 We must transport it to a SAFE LOCATION. 18:19:28 nddrylliog: Conor McBride's language^WEPIC TROLL. 18:19:34 HOWEVER, there is an UPSIDE! 18:19:46 (OK, Epigram 1 is Conor's language, Epigram 2 is his 6-years-and-counting epic troll.) 18:19:53 Phantom_Hoover: HOW CAN THAT POSSIBLY BE SO. 18:20:00 My previous crazy plan to force McBride to get a move on is no longer necessary! 18:20:15 I can just tell APT Guy to seek him out and kidnap him. 18:20:38 20:50:19 OMG, if I bought sarsaparilla extract and gentian root extract ... 18:20:38 20:51:37 Sassafras extract is too expensive, I wonder how vital it is ... 18:20:38 20:52:25 Sassafras is like $10/oz >_> 18:20:40 Gregor: rly? 18:20:48 i think it might be cheaper here? 18:20:50 Phantom_Hoover: IS THAT WISE 18:21:11 elliott, OBVIOUSLY YES 18:21:35 elliott: Upon further examination, more like $9/oz 18:22:01 Gregor: Buy it, sassafras is both DELICIOUS and EASY TO RHYME WITH. 18:22:29 21:14:12 Is $Q_0$ a standard notation for the minimum? 18:22:29 21:14:31 yeah probably 18:22:36 But still, sarsaparilla is like $4/oz and gentian (in spite of being far less used) is like $3/oz 18:22:39 quintopia: like the part where you just start giving random answers 18:22:45 Gregor: Observe: 18:22:53 Gregor: Sassafras / Kiss my ass / Blah blah blah / Sassafras 18:23:24 21:16:36 but the best word america invented was "O.K." 18:23:25 21:16:42 EVERYONE uses it now 18:23:25 O KAYYYYY 18:24:05 21:19:23 I just say "the ceiling" or "the sky" when asked what's uyp. 18:24:05 NOBODY HAS EVER THOUGHT OF THAT BEFORE 18:24:35 21:20:49 Most people I have seen who type messages in their computer never begin with "Dear" or end with "Sincerely". 18:24:35 Proof of society's decline 18:25:03 21:25:30 What is the "correct" spelling of "couldn't've"? 18:25:08 Gregor: Couldn't have, surely. 18:25:15 But I prefer the idea of arbitrarily stacking apostrophe suffixes. 18:25:16 whether OK is of american origin is disputed 18:25:21 So keep with couldn't've. 18:25:41 nddrylliog: it's that oll korrect story isn't it? 18:25:52 elliott: nope, that "au quai" story 18:25:55 but yeah that too 18:26:14 The chief strength of this etymology is its clear written record. A problem with this etymology is the implication that common usage was driven by the written appearance of a geographically and socially isolated slang term that was alien to the rest of the country. While appearing in written form often spreads and expands the usage of colloquial terms, it is rare for a single instance of written speech to make a term colloquial. The relatively sl 18:26:15 ow take-up of the term by other English-speaking countries illustrates this pattern. 18:26:29 nddrylliog: au quai isn't even on Wikipedia, I SEE NO WAY IT COULD BE TRUE THEREFORE. 18:26:57 it is http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(expression) 18:27:09 but right it's in the "popular etymologies" 18:27:13 apparently the dispute has been resolved 18:27:17 "fr." 18:27:18 damn etymologists, they're poor trolls 18:27:24 Like I'd trust the French for factual information. 18:27:38 Friggin' frogs. 18:27:46 says the country with the most creationists 18:27:46 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:27:48 OH SNAP. 18:27:53 ...' 18:27:54 :( 18:28:09 -!- elliott has joined. 18:28:12 Gregor: btw, great taste in bfjoust contestants names 18:28:43 21:31:33 pikhq: Most people use credit cards though, I think. I have received credit card applications and I just discard them. I almost always pay in cash and accept payments in cash. I sometimes (but rarely) use a cheque. 18:28:43 * elliott wonders wtf zzo38 could possibly be accepting payment for. 18:28:55 i wish the other logreaders were here so i didn't seem like so much of a spammer :D 18:28:59 nddrylliog: Why thank you :P 18:29:29 21:37:16 i want them to use when "legal tender" becomes a nonsense term 18:29:37 Hurf durf civilisation's collapse is imminent better get a lot of gold 18:30:04 meh, what is gold good for in case of civilisation collapse? 18:30:12 Absolutely fuck all. 18:30:32 nddrylliog: Slightly more value than green pieces of paper. 18:30:35 I think quintopia might be vastly underestimating the timespan between "civilisation collapses" and "you can buy things". 18:30:37 elliott, untrue! 18:30:42 It's very dense! 18:30:47 And unreactive! 18:30:48 it's absolutely beyond comprehension why Grooveshark didn't see coming Chrome plugins for hiding their ads, with their fancy HTML5 frontend and whatnot 18:31:02 pikhq_: in case of real collapse, I'd be looking for a food source, not for shiny metal :) 18:31:18 Gold has slightly less utility than dirt, but dirt isn't usable as currency while still maintaining that utility, so gold might win out. 18:31:18 have chrome plugins supplanted greasemonkey or something. i find that quite sad. 18:31:24 nddrylliog: I did *tell* him that I'd be stocking up on canned goods if I expected civilisation to collapse. 18:31:26 elliott: it seems so 18:31:36 Gregor: Yes, but if civilisation's just collapsed, currency is useless :P 18:31:49 Gregor: Unless you think people's first thoughts are going to be "Ooh, I'm going to set up a SHOP." 18:31:58 pikhq_: well then we're apocalypse strategies buddies 18:32:10 FFS! Gold has innate utility! 18:32:10 elliott: well that would be a HELL of an opportunity 18:32:23 elliott: not sure what you'll be doing with all that gold, though, except if there were other shops. 18:32:35 It's great for bludgeoning! 18:32:37 nddrylliog: In anarchy, you're quite liable to just get gunned down. 18:32:38 future-past-tense for the wobble. 18:32:42 Phantom_Hoover: So're rocks. 18:32:44 pikhq_: *chaos, 18:32:50 Phantom_Hoover: And you can find those on the ground. 18:32:50 pikhq_: why me? :( 18:33:02 nddrylliog: Not you *in particular*. 18:33:05 :D 18:33:14 I know see why whiny bitches get along in life 18:33:15 Anyone with a shop would. 18:33:22 pikhq_: yes, yes, I was messing around :) 18:33:42 * pikhq_ should get coffee. 18:33:47 And perhaps food. 18:33:48 pikhq_, just because there's a much more common but slightly-worse substitute doesn't mean it's useless. 18:34:02 Phantom_Hoover: True. 18:34:17 Phantom_Hoover: Does mean that it's not worth thousands of dollars to obtain, though. 18:34:35 back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. 18:34:35 True indeed. 18:35:03 nddrylliog: :D 18:35:14 `addquote back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. 18:35:30 oh joy \o/ another quote. I can go back to work now 18:35:30 | 18:35:30 |\ 18:35:38 aaaaaaaah someone fix myndzi already. 18:35:58 315) back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. 18:36:04 Sgeo_, I HAVE BAD NEWS MY FRIEND 18:36:12 nddrylliog: "fix"? 18:36:13 Phantom_Hoover: again?9? 18:36:16 ARE YOU SUGGESTING HE IS BROKEN? 18:36:19 Phantom_Hoover, what? 18:36:25 elliott: he? 18:36:42 nddrylliog: well unless the script also plays bf joust. 18:36:43 Sgeo_, YOUR DAYS WITH KT-AT ARE LIMITED BY CAUSALITY 18:36:45 definitely a person. 18:36:49 i suppose femaleness is not out of the question. 18:37:00 21:39:42 food, guns, ammo, fuel 18:37:00 21:40:15 (i expect if this comes to pass, looters will be quite a problem. being armed is essential.) 18:37:00 :LIBERTARIAN NUTJOB FANTASY: 18:37:02 I HAVE INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT SHE GOES BACK IN TIME AND BECOMES A BBC WAR CORRESPONDENT. 18:37:04 Yay! Someone else got confused for a bot! 18:37:35 \o/ 18:37:35 | 18:37:36 |\ 18:37:37 \o/ 18:37:37 | 18:37:38 /| 18:37:38 \o/ 18:37:46 hum. 18:37:48 Sgeo_, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Adie 18:37:56 hum. 18:37:58 o/ 18:38:00 \o 18:38:03 bahh. 18:38:29 -!- iconmaster[1] has joined. 18:38:31 mom 18:38:36 m-m 18:38:40 -!- iconmaster[1] has quit (Client Quit). 18:38:41 wow 18:38:45 Grah 18:38:50 m m 18:38:55 -!- iconmaster has joined. 18:39:16 nddrylliog: :D 18:39:17 ,o| 18:39:20 :| 18:39:21 that used to work 18:39:22 ,o, 18:39:24 \o/ \o/ 18:39:24 |o| 18:39:24 ¦ | 18:39:25 ´¸¨ /| 18:39:25 | 18:39:25 |\ 18:39:28 what the fuck 18:39:33 haw haw haw 18:39:51 \o/ \o/ 18:39:51 | | 18:39:52 /< |\ 18:39:59 Gruh? 18:40:06 \m/ \m/ 18:40:06 `\o/´ 18:40:06 | 18:40:06 /`¯|_) 18:40:06 (_| 18:40:44 pikhq_, ALSO: 18:41:03 nddrylliog: ...x-D 18:41:04 haw 18:41:04 You can use gold for stuff you don't want to corrode. 18:41:09 aww 18:41:13 i thought it thought "haw" was a face 18:41:14 Although I can't actually think of such a thing. 18:42:51 -!- Lymia__ has changed nick to Lymia. 18:42:51 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 18:42:51 -!- Lymia has joined. 18:42:56 I'm Henry the Eight I am, Henry the Eighth I am I am 18:43:11 What, no one wants to hear me sing? 18:43:19 Sgeo_, your apathy to the fact that your girlfriend is going to go back in time, de-age and then become a war correspondent. Also, CHRIST NO 18:43:34 Erm, *correspondent disturbs me. 18:44:02 {{OOC: I don't know a funny response. My only responds kills the joke}} 18:44:22 {{OOC: And yes, I did just use OOC to avoid breaking the context of a joke. Sue me}} 18:45:20 Hey nddrylliog 18:45:20 ooc 18:45:26 Sgeo_ is clearly obsessed with it 18:45:30 (SEE: ABOVE) 18:45:47 i'm sorry i'll never do that to you again 18:46:19 MAYBE HE USES OOC TO TURN HER INTO A BABY 18:48:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:51:28 Phantom_Hoover: You can also eat it. 18:51:34 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 18:51:37 What, ooc? 18:51:43 No nutritional value *at all*, but gold is edible. 18:52:26 I would totally eat a whole gold bar. 18:52:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:52:53 You need to slice it up. 18:52:56 elliott: Too hard to bite. 18:53:03 I thought it was SOFT. 18:53:07 Gold bar's worth of gold leaf, on the other hand? 18:53:08 OK, warm it up a bit so it's softer and slice it up. 18:53:12 elliott: Relatively speaking. 18:53:14 Then eat the pieces. 18:53:19 WOULD THIS NOT WORK PIKHQ 18:53:24 Use a really sharp knife. 18:53:26 Entirely doable. 18:53:38 What does it taste like :P 18:53:39 No point at all, aside from being a show of absurd wealth. 18:53:45 Dunno. 18:53:48 ALTERNATELY: get a really big hammer and hit it with that. 18:53:58 I assume it wouldn't taste of anything. 18:54:16 There's nothing to stimulate the taste buds. 18:54:23 Could get some Goldschlager and try. 18:54:32 Sorry, Goldschläger. 18:54:50 07:48:03 fizzie, defend_9_75 is ... strange 18:54:50 07:48:10 it is only good at length 10 18:54:51 Er. No? 18:54:56 Vorpal: ? 18:55:16 Well, it's safer than eating silver, surely 18:55:34 Sgeo_: Silver is also entirely safe to consume. 18:55:47 Hmm? I thought it turned skin blue 18:56:14 Sgeo_, that has to be colloidal silver. 18:56:17 That's "colloidal silver". 18:56:32 Which works by literally ending up accumulating in your body. 18:56:54 Which contains a variety of different silver compounds in solution... 18:57:04 Ah 18:57:06 Just consuming a chunk of silver does fuck-all. 18:58:00 Oh, apparently chronic consumption of chunks of silver could also cause that. 18:58:06 Silver foil might work if you ate tonnes of it, because some would end up in your blood stream. 18:58:09 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 18:58:10 -!- Lymia has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:58:32 But not going to be a big deal unless you're consuming colloidal silver. 18:58:40 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia. 18:58:40 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 18:58:40 -!- Lymia has joined. 18:59:16 According to WP, it's not a solution of silver compounds, it's a suspension of silver particles. 18:59:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argyria2.jpg 18:59:43 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 18:59:58 Anyways, the effect of argyria is caused by accumulation of silver. 18:59:58 what the fuck 19:00:00 The caption is "eyes blacked to protect identify". 19:00:16 I TOTALLY COULDN'T RECOGNISE THEM 19:00:30 arjgksdlfgskdfgjklsdfg 19:00:32 it hurts 19:00:40 You're not going to accumulate much by chomping down on silver foil. 19:00:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argyria1.jpg lol 19:01:06 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argyria_2.jpg 19:01:36 elliott: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2297471.stm 19:01:36 Yeah. Argyria isn't the biggest thing wrong with that guy. 19:01:43 Fucking Montana. 19:01:53 pikhq: ...X-D 19:01:59 VOTE SMURF 19:02:03 He began taking colloidal silver in 1999 amid fears that disruptions caused by the millennium bug might lead to a shortage of antibiotics. 19:02:22 Montana has a higher amount of crazy than average. 19:02:28 All antibiotic distribution systems use COBOL. 19:02:34 Little known fact. 19:02:36 Sgeo_, comment. 19:02:44 Anthrax 'treatment' 19:02:45 He made the solution by electrically charging two silver wires in a glass of water. 19:02:50 "People ask me if it's permanent and if I'm dead," he told the Associated Press news agency. "I tell them I'm practising for Halloween." 19:03:02 I can't see how that'd work. 19:03:04 Sir, are you dead? 19:03:18 I hope KT-AT doesn't get the idea that colloidal silver is a good idea 19:03:19 >.> 19:03:38 Sgeo_, she doesn't; I've seen pictures of Kate Adie. 19:04:23 But yeah, silver ions are positive, so... 19:04:24 Anyone wanna hear of a esolang idea? 19:04:46 Esolangs? Psssht 19:04:49 Like we ever talk about esolangs in here 19:04:50 * iconmaster is going on a seqway from colloidal silver. 19:04:54 What do you think this is, #esoteric? 19:04:58 *segue surely :P 19:05:08 Wait, maybe he charged it positively. 19:05:14 How about... a VM inside of a VM? 19:05:23 That's an esolang? 19:05:27 Yo dawg I herd u like... 19:05:32 hear me out... 19:05:41 So, I'll just boot up my Windows XP VM, and run some .NET game... 19:06:19 Sgeo_, incidentally, I stumbled upon your AW esolang idea while logreading. 19:06:37 And? 19:06:47 Contrary to my expectations, it was actually quite interesting. 19:06:50 The outer virtual machine has different bytecodes from the inner one. The outer machine's instructions can effect how the inner one's are executed. To do any meaninful takes, the two VMs have to work together. 19:06:54 Phantom_Hoover, which? 19:07:13 *tasks 19:07:21 The "objects have timer and name etc." one. 19:08:07 Or it could be a n-layerd VM, where the outer one affects how each inner one is executed.... 19:08:25 That's less disambiguating than I think, but I think you're talking about the language based on that, not the computer built on that 19:08:34 Yes, I am. 19:09:05 ag.connect_group(ord('q'), gtk.gdk.CONTROL_MASK, 0, gtk.main_quit) 19:09:05 self.window.add_accelerator('destroy', ag, ord('q'), gtk.gdk.CONTROL_MASK, 0) 19:09:08 I DO NOT LIKE THE INCONSISTENCY HERE 19:09:22 * Sgeo_ doesn't guess GTK+ 19:09:27 Does Sam Hughes specialise in "CS stuff in PHP" now? 19:09:40 CLEARLY 19:09:50 Sgeo_, incidentally, I stumbled upon your AW esolang idea while logreading. 19:09:51 Which one 19:10:00 Oh, I was implored by yet another relative not to go into CS. 19:10:04 elliott, the one that's an esoang 19:10:06 esolang 19:10:07 For what reason? 19:10:39 Phantom_Hoover? 19:11:16 PHANTOM HOVERBOARD, RESPOND 19:11:34 elliott, he's a dead president, what do you expect? 19:11:36 -!- augur has joined. 19:11:39 elliott, erm, IIRC it's along the lines of "each object has a (non-unique) name and a timer; when the timer goes off they can set their own name to something else and change the timers of objects with a particular name." 19:11:46 Oh, I was implored by yet another relative not to go into CS. 19:11:48 For what reason? 19:11:48 Phantom_Hoover? 19:11:48 PHANTOM HOVERBOARD, RESPOND 19:11:52 Oh, right. 19:12:20 Erm, he said that when he was running his company the programmers who did CS were the ones who couldn't actually program. 19:12:55 I just had to Wikipedia that Mr. Hoover actually died. 19:13:26 False assumption (aiming towards career in codemonkeying) -- check! 19:13:43 Yeah, I know. 19:13:45 Ridiculous anecdote that probably has no foundation in truth at all -- check! 19:15:42 Phantom_Hoover: Did his company hire degree mill "graduates"? 19:15:48 No idea. 19:15:58 Say, University of Phoenix or some such. 19:15:58 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:16:15 It was in Ireland and quite a while ago. 19:16:38 -!- elliott has joined. 19:16:43 "Quite a while ago" like... Decades? 19:17:01 At least 10 years, probably more. 19:17:41 Hmm. 10 years ago would've been around the time of the dot-com bust. 19:17:53 When you had a good few morons going into CS under the premise that it'd earn them money. 19:18:22 Late '80s, apparently. 19:18:39 I think that girl on the bus might be one such moron 19:18:56 Then again, maybe I was just so bored by our conversation 19:18:56 Ah, so at *this* point there wouldn't even be that many programmers out there, CS degree or not. 19:19:04 So... fucking... boring 19:19:22 Sgeo_, ah, but that's because you don't know ALL PROGRAMS 19:19:31 LOL 19:20:12 HOW DO YOU GO TO THE START OF THE LINE IN A GTKTEXTVIEW HOW HOW HOW 19:20:19 Funny thing, before that conversation, I was wondering if I'd rather date her than KT-AT 19:20:36 Now, for the first time in my life, I'm capable of envisioning a "bad date" 19:20:46 XD 19:21:16 Sgeo are you actually still wanting to date kt-at. 19:21:20 Oh delicious coffee, how very delicious you are. 19:21:24 Sorry, let me rephrase that question. 19:21:33 Sgeo, did you drop your brain in a river and then crush it with sticks. 19:22:22 ... 19:22:27 Who is this KT-AT, and what is there to suggest that he/she/it is or is not a good idea to date? 19:22:36 pikhq: She thinks that Vitamin C cures cancer. 19:22:38 i wish the other logreaders were here so i didn't seem like so much of a spammer :D <-- i didn't bother to logread more than searching for my nick today. as a general rule, the longer the logs the less likely i browse all of them. 19:22:48 elliott: AAAAGH NO NO NO NO NO NO. 19:22:50 pikhq: She herself is a cancer survivor who survived with the power of things like "chemotherapy" and "modern scientific medicine". 19:23:00 elliott: AAAAAGH 19:23:14 Sgeo_: I'd sooner get a penectomy than date her. 19:23:27 Sgeo has yet to flick the "on" switch attached to his brain and still wants to date her for reasons unexplainable by modern science. 19:23:32 oerjan: psht 19:23:36 elliott: Boner. Definitely boner. 19:23:48 Sgeo_: Don't stick your dick in crazy. 19:23:54 [insert Joker's-boner picture here] 19:23:59 elliott: :) 19:23:59 http://www.redshirt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/batman6.jpg 19:24:17 I think she might be more gullible than crazy 19:24:41 Sgeo_: She has still shown a rather severe lack of reasoning ability. 19:25:25 It takes more than gullibility to believe that cancer treatment is all a scam by Big Pharma because -- Vitamin C does the job just fine! 19:25:26 Though I guess it could be *worse*. 19:25:34 It requires gullibility, and at least one of insanity, or idiocy. 19:25:45 elliott, well, not as bad as the free energy nuts. 19:25:57 Phantom_Hoover: At least they're not actively harmful. 19:26:05 Nobody died by creating a false perpetual motion machine. 19:26:11 "THE POWER COMPANIES PREFER USING OIL TO MAKING A PROFIT" 19:26:17 If a cancer patient decided that they're just gonna drink a bunch of orange juice... 19:26:17 At least it's entirely plausible vitamin C has *some* effect on cancer. 19:26:21 They would die. Of cancer. 19:26:22 As in, dead. 19:26:35 Because of some gullible/idiot/moron/crazies. 19:26:43 (most likely in the form of prevention than anything else.) 19:26:53 pikhq: Oh, don't encourage him. 19:27:01 "WELL MAYBE KT-AT IS JUST A VISIONARY" 19:27:21 `addquote back to legal tender, [...] <-- YOU BEAT ME THERE 19:27:27 Do you really think that's something I'd say? 19:27:33 oerjan: :D 19:27:44 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:27:49 Just not as bad as, say, believers in faith healing. 19:27:52 Oh god, I just realised I have 6 TV Tropes tabs open. 19:28:34 Hmm. Y'know, I bet a tunnel over UDP wouldn't show this "drop connection LAWL" BS. 19:28:50 (I'm *pretty* sure at least part of the issue is that the NAT is dropping state) 19:29:43 Shame that SCTP adoption isn't likely. 19:30:11 Though SCTP-over-UDP adoption is entirely possible, simply requiring someone to choose to do so when writing some new service. 19:31:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:31:52 No point at all, aside from being a show of absurd wealth. <-- yeah i read some people actually do it... 19:31:54 pikhq_: Wait, it can't be boner, unless Sgeo is just really irrational: I have some reason to believe KT-AT may be abstinence-only, but I'm not certain 19:31:58 ONLY SCIENCE CAN SOLVE THIS MYSTERY. 19:32:18 Sgeo_, is she a religious nutcase? 19:32:38 oerjan: Actually, small quantities of gold or silver for food decoration aren't that absurd. 19:32:56 MY CONNECTION KEEPS DROPPING 19:32:57 Phantom_Hoover, religious, but not nutcase, as far as I can tell 19:33:01 oerjan: Mostly because in the quantities needed for *decoration*, you're talking maybe $10. 19:33:11 Sgeo: Uh, we've already established that she's a nutcase. 19:33:18 Sure, not going to be common even then, but it's not exactly a show of ostentatious wealth there. 19:33:26 technically, gold would be poisonous if it got into the body somehow 19:33:33 but it's "safe" to eat because humans are incapable of digesting it 19:33:36 ais523, wait what? 19:33:37 So an abstinence-only religious nutcase who thinks Vitamin C cures cancer... have fun with that, Sgeo_. 19:33:41 elliott, yeah, but "religious nutcase" != religious /\ nutcase 19:33:52 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but "but not nutcase, as far as I can tell" 19:34:01 Sgeo_: If it somehow got into the blood it could plausibly cause issues? 19:34:13 ais523: It's... Kinda inert. 19:34:15 As in, not "religious nutcase" as far as I can tell 19:34:17 pikhq_: indeed 19:34:28 but if you somehow get it to react, the salts are dangerous 19:34:28 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:34:36 on the other hand, the only things gold dissolves in would kill you much more quickly 19:34:38 Oh, yes, the salts can be quite dangerous. 19:34:56 Thought not all... 19:35:12 -!- elliott has joined. 19:35:18 pikhq_ 19:35:21 it's not your connection 19:35:23 oerjan: <3 19:35:24 it's happening to me too :D 19:35:28 pikhq_, presumably due to the only things that will react with gold being able to react with *everything*. 19:35:43 Certain gold salts are used to treat arthritis, after all... 19:35:49 What can react with helium? 19:36:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas_compound 19:36:23 Sgeo_: Fluorine? 19:36:33 pikhq_, not according to that article. 19:36:33 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:36:41 Phantom_Hoover: Good guess though. 19:36:50 There are some which could theoretically be stable at very low temperatures. 19:37:01 Fluorine is definitely the most *likely* to react with any noble gas. 19:37:06 -!- elliott has joined. 19:37:06 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:37:07 I don't think anyone's managed to react anything with helium yet 19:37:23 noble gases seem to most easily react with fluorine in first and oxygen in second 19:37:32 elliott, he's a dead president, what do you expect? <-- wait how did i never get that reference before... Phantom_Hoover, is that the actual source? 19:37:42 ais523: Makes sense. 19:37:48 -!- elliott has joined. 19:37:50 What's KT-AT's opinion on fluoride in water 19:37:51 Absolutely nothing with neon, even in theory; HArF, KrF_2 and a tonne of xenon compounds. 19:37:53 The two most reactive elements, after all. 19:37:55 oerjan, no. 19:37:59 "Helium can form unstable compounds, known as excimers" 19:38:02 It's just a silly name I made up years ago. 19:38:19 fluoride is a lot safer than fluorine, as it's reacted already 19:38:27 elliott, no idea 19:38:39 Fluoride is just F^-, surely? 19:38:43 Fullerene compounds! 19:38:46 huh wait the famous hoover was _not_ the president... 19:39:05 Noble gas in the middle of the buckyball. 19:39:21 He@C60. This is a real compound. 19:39:21 :) 19:39:21 Not compounds in the normal sense. 19:39:39 Phantom_Hoover: Thus the unusual notation. 19:39:51 oerjan: yeah Phantom_Hoover is clearly named after the one who made vacuums. 19:40:31 Certainly, the C60 has not reacted with the He in any way. 19:40:40 It just happened to form around it. 19:40:43 * Phantom_Hoover hates chemistry 19:40:59 I find chemistry quite fascinating when it's not mandatory. 19:41:30 Well. The problem is that there are blindingly obvious exceptions to any abstractions at all. 19:41:55 Okay, true, that is a problem. 19:42:14 Which is why I hate formal study of it. :P 19:42:25 Well, yeah. 19:42:37 Physics is quite a bit nicer in that respect. 19:42:54 Your exceptions come when things get *really* small, *really* big, or *really* fast. 19:43:01 WHY IS GTKSOURCEVIEW SO DAMN COMPLICATED 19:43:08 Oh delicious coffee, how very delicious you are. <-- but _i_ am drinking yummy, yummy, ice coffee latte 19:43:09 Maybe using Scintilla would be easier. 19:43:30 And even then, you just start having a different set of relevant abstractions. 19:44:09 But if you ask a physicist about a molecule more complicated than hydrogen, he'll just shrug and approximate all over the place. 19:44:33 fizzie, *atom. 19:44:37 fizzie: Because that's chemistry. :P 19:44:46 And fundamentally uninteresting to most of them. 19:44:55 (exception, nuclear physicists.) 19:44:57 pikhq: She thinks that Vitamin C cures cancer. <-- THAT'S JUST AN INDICATION THAT SHE'S A GENIUS, LIKE LINUS PAULING 19:45:00 I won't mock you for that because it'll probably turn out to be a language thing and then I'll look like an idiot. 19:45:04 Phantom_Hoover: It's just a special case of a molecule. :p 19:45:22 Phantom_Hoover: He could actually be referring to molecular hydrogen, anyways. 19:45:27 ... Erm. 19:45:28 No. 19:45:30 No. 19:45:31 No. 19:45:33 Certainly they'll be even more confused when multiple atoms are involved. 19:45:35 oerjan: and if she believes in synchronicity, she'll be even more of a genius, like Ørjan Johansen! 19:45:37 wait. 19:45:44 * elliott was kicked by oerjan (RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE) 19:45:51 Well, there is that particle physics meaning of "molecule". 19:46:10 Does hydrogen even form compounds with itself? 19:46:15 pikhq_, -_- 19:46:29 Oh, dur, of course it does. 19:46:30 2. atom, molecule, particle, corpuscle, mote, speck -- ((nontechnical usage) a tiny piece of anything) 19:46:31 H2. 19:47:58 argh where are the scintilla wrappers... 19:48:25 THINGS THAT NOÖNE WITHOUT A DEGREE IN PHYSICS UNDERSTANDS: the weak nuclear force. 19:48:30 sigh. nothing in ubuntu 19:49:35 Nobody died by creating a false perpetual motion machine. <-- i _do_ recall reading this story of such a machine that exploded during demonstration because the narrator refused to let the scamster plug in (or was it de-plug) the cord that "supposedly" only fed the measuring device. i think it killed an innocent bystander, too, but not the creator himself. 19:50:01 oerjan: It exploded because it... got no power? 19:50:16 De-plug would make more sense... but the narrator would /want/ to see it deplugged to see it in action. 19:50:22 YOUR MEMORY I THINK IS INACCURATE 19:50:32 Oh god, I just realised I have 6 TV Tropes tabs open. <-- AMATEUR 19:50:53 Well, I thought I was relatively immune to that kind of thing./ 19:50:59 (admittedly i haven't succumbed that hard to tvtropes in quite a while) 19:51:13 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 19:51:22 -!- Lymia has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:51:23 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia. 19:51:23 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 19:51:23 -!- Lymia has joined. 19:51:38 sourceforge redesigned again 19:51:39 Due to having visited most of the nexus tropes. 19:52:01 I just recall our introductionary quantum mechanics course barely managed to cover the wavefunction for a hydrogen atom (and even that had to invoke functions named after people -- Laguerre polynomials -- always a bad sign -- cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_atom#Wavefunction ) analytically, and they were all "beyond this we'll just crunch numbers". 19:52:44 I do like the fact that she hugs me, and kisses me near my cheek 19:52:58 And I've kissed her on the cheek on occasion 19:53:00 elliott, BET YOU WISH YOU HAD SGEO ON IGNORE NOW 19:53:07 "Near" your cheek. 19:53:17 I can't even mock that, it's so stupid. 19:53:20 I don't think her lips ever actually touched me 19:53:39 Phantom_Hoover: I actually do. 19:53:46 elliott, BE THANKFUL 19:53:55 Sgeo_, smear your face with vitamin C. 19:54:00 oerjan: <3 <-- what was that about? 19:54:02 She won't be able to resist. 19:54:20 oerjan: addquote i assume 19:54:25 Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing. 19:54:25 oerjan: `addquote back to legal tender, [...] <-- YOU BEAT ME THERE 19:55:10 err wait what? *looks for context* 19:55:34 `addquote Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing. 19:55:53 Wait, you actually use a console browser 19:55:55 *? 19:56:10 07:48:10 it is only good at length 10 <-- well that was what fizzie's graph indicated. It lost more than it won for the other ones. 19:56:23 316) Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing. 19:56:40 Vorpal: you realise that red = loss 19:56:41 blue = win? 19:56:49 it does /badly/ at length 10, and well on every other length 19:57:10 elliott, fizzie reversed colours relative bfjsout iirc. 19:58:13 elliott, or how do you explain how the king of the hill has so much red in http://zem.fi/~fis/tlpoints19.png ? 19:58:33 elliott, please read the scale :P 19:58:53 I'm pretty sure that's just for that plot. 19:58:55 elliott, fully blue = -40 points 19:59:08 Hmm, has 9.75 fallen that much? 19:59:09 elliott, that was the plot we were discussing though 19:59:23 No, it hasn't, it's at position 11. 19:59:25 elliott, so your claim about red = loss is wrong in the context you complained 19:59:26 11 22 40.25 9.87 ais523_defend9_75.bfjoust 19:59:54 elliott, he uses an extended hill iirc? 20:00:02 elliott, also FFSPG is the leader of the scoreboard and is mostly red in that plot 20:00:44 Phantom_Hoover: Only for tvtropes. 20:00:46 elliott, In any case according to that plot, 9.75 was/is good at length 10 and worse at longer lengths. 20:01:15 fizzie, I managed the art of using a graphical browser and not following links on tvtropes 20:01:41 Does hydrogen even form compounds with itself? <-- do any elements other than the noble gases _not_? 20:01:51 I only follow links on there if it is required to understand the major points of the article. And I use laconic when it exists. 20:01:51 fizzie, XD 20:01:57 And my plot colors are "red = positive, blue = negative", yes. 20:02:05 Phantom_Hoover: It's easier to ignore when it's not in the "main" browser. 20:02:09 elliott, see. You were wrong :P 20:02:18 oerjan: Perhaps some of the ones that are too unstable to last more than a few microseconds. 20:02:22 :P 20:02:26 -!- nddrylliog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:02:29 Though this is more a practical concern. 20:02:51 Well, depends on how you define "compound". 20:04:23 YOUR MEMORY I THINK IS INACCURATE <-- found it, in fact the narrator was feynman: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle2.html 20:06:21 Also my results can differ from egojoust because my hill has a bit fewer participants, and also because crank may have bugs. In fact, come to think of it, I probably don't parse the "*-1" thing. 20:07:28 oerjan: I like how casually he treats the fatalities in that :P 20:07:41 fizzie: -1 = 10,000 for egojoust compliance. 20:07:43 Not 100,000. 20:08:28 It's 0 for me. :p 20:08:40 Yeaaaaaaaaaah. 20:08:51 You might want a working implementation before you start making charts. 20:09:00 Sgeo_, smear your face with vitamin C. <-- XD 20:09:05 "grep '\*-1' *.bfjoust" says in my current hill/ only quintopia_chilling uses it. 20:09:19 oerjan: It reduces wrinkles or something! 20:09:21 I FORGET 20:09:23 Ask Phantom_Hoover! 20:09:42 Yeah, that as well! 20:09:48 IT'S A WIN-WIN SCENARIO 20:10:04 Anyway, the *-1 seems quite an undocumented thing, it's nowhere to be found in http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust unless I'm skipping something. 20:10:12 fizzie: Yes, it's a "bug". 20:10:15 But we all use it, so now it's OFFICIAL. 20:10:26 What does it do? 20:10:33 *big 20:10:36 http://imgur.com/a/22daV 20:10:43 fizzie: Make it *100000 for sanity, as opposed to the egojoust *10000. 20:10:45 NEVER DID I THINK I WOULD LUST FOR A SINK 20:10:46 Shouldn't really affect any results. 20:14:27 yeah the logical thing is for negative numbers to count as infinity, if anything 20:14:45 which of course is equivalent to the maximum running time 20:15:15 well unless you did that "reverse polarity" thing someone suggested 20:15:38 but that would not be even approximately backwards-compatible 20:16:17 reverse polarity? 20:16:22 oh right 20:16:22 heh 20:16:34 yeah it is infinity practically, since most matches don't last longer than 10,000 + a bit :P 20:16:43 so the logical 100,000 is now being adopted 20:16:46 elliott: (...)*-n would work like (...)*n, except reversing the polarity of everything inside 20:17:13 right 20:17:22 oerjan: also inverting > and < 20:17:54 elliott: that seems less useful 20:18:07 that would mean pretending you're your opponent 20:18:07 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:18:26 i guess there could be times when that was appropriate 20:18:35 -!- elliott has joined. 20:18:38 oerjan: going forwards minus one times is going backwards once, duh 20:18:42 21:45 oerjan> elliott: that seems less useful 20:18:42 21:45 oerjan> that would mean pretending you're your opponent 20:18:42 21:45 = elliott [~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:18:46 21:46 oerjan> i guess there could be times when that was appropriate 20:18:52 FUCKING CONNECTION FUCKNG CONNECTIONG OJSIF 20:18:56 oerjan: it's about purity not usefulness 20:19:09 heh 20:19:57 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:20:36 -!- elliott has joined. 20:20:42 WHY IS THIS CONNECTION SO FUCKING UNSTABLE 20:20:55 are there any important warriors that simply optimizing for assuming the tape is longer than 10 and don't even try to _survive_ it? 20:21:00 *optimize 20:21:08 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:21:12 oerjan: there used to be, but as we KEEP TELLING EVERYONE WHO ASKS, that no longer pays off 20:21:26 ...i didn't notice anyone asking :) 20:21:50 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:22:29 http://imgur.com/a/22daV NEVER DID I THINK I WOULD LUST FOR A SINK <-- as far as sinks go, many seem rather impractical 20:22:37 Phantom_Hoover, especially if kitchen sinks 20:22:51 lusting for sinks seems even more impractical 20:23:13 NEXT UP: Anise soda 20:23:28 Gregor: ...<3 20:23:29 Want buy 20:23:30 THEN: Banana soda 20:24:04 elliott: From the syrup, I'm AFRAID of anise soda X-D 20:24:14 Gregor: wat 20:24:21 It's ... intense. 20:24:34 There's a teaspoon of anise extract per three liters of water. 20:24:35 Gregor: Anise soda == non-alcoholic ouzo? 20:24:47 http://i.imgur.com/eGQyA.jpg <-- is that a real aquarium inside or just a fake one with plastic fish? 20:24:49 fizzie: Presumably fizzier (HI FIZZIE) too. 20:25:04 I should've gotten green food coloring and called it soda absynthe :P 20:25:18 Phantom_Hoover, ^ 20:26:05 No idea. 20:26:09 heh are those _actual_ fish in that aquarium one - i wonder how they like when you fill the sink with hot water... 20:26:16 There was a faucet like the one in the picture that has the text "waterfall" in it somewhere. 20:26:17 *like it 20:26:23 I doubt they're real: no filter. 20:26:23 Phantom_Hoover, hm I see no water surface inside. Must be fake. Can't see any way it would get enough oxygen into the water 20:26:27 Phantom_Hoover, that too 20:26:52 Alternately, it's a concept sink and the fish aren't permanent. 20:26:52 Phantom_Hoover, also it would be too stressful for the fish to live like that 20:26:55 Alternately, it's a concept sink and the fish aren't permanent. 20:27:03 s/that line// 20:27:12 Phantom_Hoover: Alternately, ROBOT FISH. 20:27:20 Phantom_Hoover, ah good, then I don't have to say "stop being elliott" :P 20:27:33 What? 20:28:17 elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated 20:28:22 elliott, that is what I'm talking about 20:28:51 elliott, you do that a lot 20:29:31 What? 20:29:51 oerjan, err? 20:30:06 ALSO: Anise extract is clear, but turns cloudy when you put it in near-boiling water. Isn't that mildly interesting :P 20:30:08 Vorpal: THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE AT THAT POINT 20:30:38 oerjan, oh. No it wouldn't. I would presume he is able to figure out what I meant. 20:30:52 oerjan: swat time 20:31:14 Vorpal: YOU HAVE NO SENSE OF SYMMETRY 20:31:35 OR JOKES 20:31:35 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:32:26 otoh that was an entirely "appropriate" response from you as well :) 20:32:43 oerjan, wrt symmetry: actually I do. Ask the guy on a minecraft server when I pointed out that a door was was misaligned by 1 along a very long wall. Once I pointed it out he couldn't stop getting annoyed at the lack of symmetry as well and ended up rebuilding half of a rather large castle. 20:32:54 EVERYONE BEHAVE IN THEIR STEREOTYPICAL MANNER, STAT! 20:33:26 oerjan, oh yes I *am* aware of that taking such a statement seriously and interpreting it this way is very stereotypical of me :P 20:33:29 HEY GUYS I'M SAYING "HEY GUYS" AND TALKING ABOUT SOME PROGRAMMING SHIT I WROTE THAT NOBODY CARES ABOUT THEN OVERUSING :P :P :P :P 20:33:46 Gregor, YAY ZEE! 20:34:10 Gregor, what happens if you try websplat on a non-html page? 20:34:21 Vorpal: Depends on the browser, depends on the page. 20:34:33 Gregor, browser: firefox, page: a .png 20:34:37 Gregor, hahah 20:34:43 Vorpal: It behaves like a page with just one image on it. 20:34:51 With some markup screwiness 20:34:53 "
20:34:54
Which game would you like to play?" [button with html tag in it] 20:34:58 Gregor, yes indeed 20:35:49 I can't wait for my anise soda syrup to cool down, I'm impatient D-8 20:35:50 Gregor, how did that screwiness happen 20:36:00 Gregor, why is it hot? 20:36:09 Gregor, also try cooling it 20:36:16 You can only make supersaturated sucrose syrup in hot water. 20:36:32 It's in the refrigerator, but it was boiling and it's dense so it'll still take a while :P 20:37:08 Gregor, if you let it pass through a tube with that nifty "outer-tube-where-cold-water-flows-in-the-opposite-direction"-thingy then it should cool quite quickly 20:37:19 This is sucrose syrup, it doesn't "flow" :P 20:37:23 Gregor, ah 20:37:28 Gregor, is it qctually soda then 20:37:30 actually* 20:37:46 Gregor, soda shouldn't be syrupy. It should flow 20:37:52 It's in the refrigerator, but it was boiling and it's dense so it'll still take a while :P ← HEAT CAPACITY FAIL 20:38:01 Vorpal: This is soda SYRUP 20:38:12 Gregor: do other hyposmic people taste drinks like you do? i have this feeling these experiments ought to be of benefit to _someone_ else... 20:38:16 Gregor, okay what about liquid nitrogen then? 20:38:24 oerjan: I've gotten mixed results :P 20:38:35 Vorpal: I've got a huge supply of that lawlehcoptah 20:38:55 Gregor, what about normal freeze spray? 20:39:12 Gregor, they can cool things to like -20 in a handful of seconds 20:39:26 I don't want frozen syrup :P 20:39:40 Gregor, don't apply it for so long then duh! 20:39:54 Vorpal: zomg u r so helpful 20:39:54 Gregor, besides "couple of seconds" was a for a 8-pin DIP 20:40:04 Gregor, I'm sure it would take a bit longer for your thing 20:40:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:24 *Aaaaah*. 20:41:43 pikhq, what? 20:41:56 hm i wonder if there is a faster, yet still not extra energy-requiring way of cooling boiling things down to room temperature (to save on refrigeration) 20:41:59 Sometimes, my packets end up going through a router that gleefully throws away all ICMP messages, including those required for path MTU discovery. 20:42:16 (below room temperature obviously needs energy) 20:42:21 Python and error reporting: http://p.zem.fi/8yf1 20:42:31 pikhq, that router is badly misconfigured 20:42:42 pikhq, try to report it to whoever controls it 20:42:42 Vorpal: Yes. 20:42:59 I'll see if I can find who's got it. 20:43:08 Python and error reporting: http://p.zem.fi/8yf1 <-- I have to admit I haven't seen that one, but could it be too much indention compared to the previous line perhaps? 20:43:26 i guess dependent on temperature, putting things outdoors may help, we sometimes do that in norway (well did when i was a child, at least) 20:43:33 Vorpal: The line was completely empty. The problem was a missing ) in a function comments few lines (and comments) backwards, though. 20:43:53 oerjan, we still do here as well. Like when deiceing the freezer or such while it is winter. 20:44:20 fizzie, in a comment 20:44:22 * pikhq runs netalyzr 20:44:23 fizzie, what do you mean 20:44:25 Vorpal: i wasn't thinking frozen things, just cooling recently boiled things 20:44:33 fizzie, it checks you have ( and ) balanced in comments? 20:44:41 oerjan, that too happens 20:44:55 oerjan, but I think today it would end up colder than inside the freezer 20:44:56 Vorpal: I just mean that it reported the error for the last line of the while, while the one with the missing ( was several lines earlier, and there were comments in-between. 20:45:14 fizzie, ah... 20:45:18 fizzie, what a strange bug 20:45:25 Vorpal: well you don't want to keep it there too long 20:45:36 oerjan, -20 °C over there too? 20:46:31 "Current temperature at Otaniemi: -20.81 °C" 20:47:28 The offending host is 184.99.1.22. 20:47:57 pikhq, whois(1) is helpful 20:48:02 Vorpal: around -8 i think, iirc the forecast 20:48:11 oerjan, lucky you 20:48:13 * oerjan has no actual outside thermometer handy 20:48:17 Owned by my ISP. 20:48:22 oerjan, also the forcast was way off 20:48:57 pikhq, good luck getting past the stupid IT support when calling 20:48:59 oerjan: You smarmy Norwegians with your Gulf Streams. 20:49:09 Fudge. 20:49:15 -!- elliott has joined. 20:49:17 Vorpal: they've been having this strange phenomenon lately where the three-day forecast sometimes gives far too low temperatures, to the degree yr.no for a while included a warning against it 20:49:20 pikhq, might be better to email the email listed in the whois record 20:49:27 ipadmin@qwest.com 20:49:28 ? 20:49:33 pikhq, yes I guess so 20:49:36 (the first two days are comparably fine) 20:49:44 pikhq, or abuse if they have one. This is abuse of the router :P 20:49:56 oerjan, how strange. 20:50:04 dude 20:50:05 Not actually abuse, just a major administrative fail. 20:50:07 seriously who wrote this toolkit. 20:50:07 * Disconnected (Connection timed out). 20:50:10 WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH MY CONNECTION 20:50:11 :( 20:50:23 elliott, what toolkit? 20:50:30 elliott, also check if your MTU discovery works 20:50:32 Vorpal: i recall something vague about the computers not being able to handle very local variations 20:50:34 gtk 20:50:36 and what 20:50:42 under some wind conditions 20:50:46 elliott, just in case it is some sort of epidemic 20:50:55 MTU discovery? 20:51:12 elliott, see log, check what pikhq talked about. far too long to explain 20:51:37 elliott, start at " *Aaaaah*." 20:51:45 i don't skip logs 20:51:53 okay 20:52:33 what should i run to see if there's some evil router in my path :D 20:52:35 traceroute? 20:52:40 http://netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/ 20:52:41 Vorpal: i recall something vague about the computers not being able to handle very local variations <-- hm okay 20:52:52 pikhq: that seems complicated. i'm not clever. but okay... 20:53:01 Vorpal: it may be all those fjords throwing them off :D 20:53:05 elliott: It's an automated thing. 20:53:10 and hills and stuff 20:53:13 pikhq: erm does that page actually have any way to run it 20:53:21 oh it's java. 20:53:21 oerjan, err? 20:53:24 so probably won't work, fun 20:53:25 otoh that doesn't explain why it didn't happen before 20:53:29 ok here we go 20:53:37 Vorpal: norway has a lot of local height variation 20:53:48 pikhq: okay, let's see if this helps :P 20:53:54 pikhq: maybe we have the same problematic router between us 20:53:57 we could be BAD ROUTER BUDDIES? 20:54:15 oerjan, ah 20:54:34 i don't skip logs <-- THAT'S DEDICATION 20:54:41 elliott, unlikely. It is at his ISP 20:54:46 Vorpal: shut up. 20:54:48 pikhq: buddies *hi5* 20:55:08 elliott, why do you hate the truth? :,( 20:55:10 FIND THE BLOODY EXACT DNS MTU 20:55:12 NOT HARD YO 20:55:15 STUPID COMPUTER 20:55:28 dear gtk, 20:55:30 all i want to do 20:55:33 is make Ctrl+A and Ctrl+E 20:55:35 do the right thing 20:55:36 in my text widget 20:55:37 i don't skip logs <-- THAT'S DEDICATION <-- no it is DSM 20:55:41 but your API 20:55:43 is so fucking retarded 20:55:44 that i can't 20:55:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:55:46 so why is that gtk 20:55:49 is it because you suck 20:55:58 elliott, what would C-e do? 20:56:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:56:03 oerjan: A local "tabloid"-style "news"paper recently (around start of this month) advertised themselves with (paraphrasing) "Exclusive! Exact weather reports for the whole next summer! Only from us!" 20:56:08 Vorpal: what do you think 20:56:27 pikhq: Regarding MREs: The ingridients used probably aren't too healthy, but those rations are likely heavily fortified which would at least provode micronutriets. Unfortunately, the micronutrient list is probably missing couple essential ones. Also, it has so many carbs that one needs solid handling of blood glucose (even with all the activity). 20:56:31 elliott, eject harddrive hotswap bay 17 20:56:37 Vorpal: no. go to eol 20:56:45 elliott, oh isn't that what end does 20:56:52 Vorpal: do you... even use emacs? 20:56:55 elliott, at least I'm used to end doing that in many text editors 20:57:02 elliott, yes I do but I changed some keybindings around 20:57:08 come on, i use the arrow keys in emacs, but even /I/ use Ctrl+A and Ctrl+E 20:57:10 elliott, and I don't use ctrl-e or end a lot 20:57:12 how the fuck do you move around your shell prompt? 20:57:18 Vorpal: DSM-IV? 20:57:18 like you forgot to prepend sudo 20:57:23 oerjan, yeah 20:57:23 tap the left arrow key 100 times? 20:57:26 also i need to make Ctrl+k do the right thing afterwards too... 20:57:32 (/not/ what Emacs treats it as) 20:57:39 elliott, you know inputrc? 20:57:54 i don't know why anyone would use home/end. they're in the block of useless keys. 20:57:54 elliott, home jumps to start of the input for me. Easier to press too 20:58:00 Ok, I was not expecting Star Trek to take a strong anti-euthanasia stance 20:58:02 easier to press than ctrl+a/e? 20:58:04 what? 20:58:06 elliott, I mean I don't even have to move my hand to reach home key 20:58:43 well slightly up. But not much. Don't need to move for end though 20:59:00 elliott, on a laptop I do of course, but not on a full size keyboard 20:59:06 i wonder /why/ emacs is so retarded with ctrl-k. 20:59:11 laptops place those keys so stupidly 20:59:23 but then, there isn't much choice 20:59:33 fn-left and fn-right are home/end on this. 20:59:37 (fn-up and fn-down are pgup/pgdwn) 20:59:40 *pgdown) 20:59:51 elliott, ouch that hurts 21:00:03 no 21:00:04 it's nice 21:00:07 the cursor keys are ok on this 21:00:29 elliott, really if you can't reach end from home row position on a full size keyboard with the outermost finger your hands are too small :P 21:00:29 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:00:40 maybe just as well he didn't see that 21:01:03 -!- elliott has joined. 21:01:07 Major Abnormalities 21:01:09 Your ISP's DNS server is slow to lookup names 21:01:11 Minor Aberrations 21:01:13 Certain TCP protocols are blocked in outbound traffic 21:01:15 Fragmented UDP traffic is blocked 21:01:17 The network path does not reply when it needs to fragment traffic 21:01:21 Network packet buffering may be excessive 21:01:23 that doesn't seem to help much. 21:01:36 elliott, I very very much doubt fragmenting would happen for IRC 21:01:40 Basic UDP access is available. 21:01:40 The applet was able to send a packet of 1471 bytes of payload (1499 bytes total) only on the second try, suggesting your host is running Linux (or other path MTU discovery) on UDP traffic. 21:01:40 The applet was unable to receive fragmented UDP traffic. The most likely cause is an error in your network's firewall configuration or NAT. 21:01:41 So, you too have path MTU discovery broken. 21:01:43 The maximum packet successfully received was 1477 bytes of payload. 21:01:45 MTU 21:01:47 I see MTU 21:01:54 elliott, that MTU looks good 21:01:55 pikhq: so that would cause me not seeing any messages from the server for ages 21:01:56 then disconnecting 21:02:02 and reconnecting nearly immediately? 21:02:06 (as in, no downtime delay) 21:02:15 also, at the same time, i get disconnected from MSN Messenger 21:02:19 Does UDP-Lite work? :-> 21:02:20 elliott: If it's somehow dropping fragmented packets. 21:02:23 so I guess it's like a temporary outage? 21:02:34 i guess? 21:02:46 You also seem to have bufferbloat. 21:02:49 heh: [[We estimate your uplink as having 2600 msec of buffering. This is quite high, and you may experience substantial disruption to your network performance when performing interactive tasks such as web-surfing while simultaneously conducting large uploads. With such a buffer, real-time applications such as games or audio chat can work quite poorly when conducting large uploads at the same time.]] 21:02:50 So, you too have path MTU discovery broken. <-- SYNCHRONICITY 21:02:58 apparently my isp's dns sucks. 21:03:09 todo. bogons. 21:03:09 * oerjan shuffles back into the corner 21:04:22 pikhq, I wonder what that netalyzer will tell me. Turned on java to test. In particular I have a local dns server for example 21:04:23 I've not ended up actually testing my ISP's DNS; my DNS server is on localhost. 21:04:29 elliott: i assume you have tried several different irc servers. 21:04:37 pikhq, also IPsec and an ipv6 tunnel. And what not 21:04:45 oerjan: um no 21:04:48 i just use irc.freenode.net 21:04:52 oerjan: since i get disconnected from msn messenger. 21:04:56 it's not the irc server. 21:05:03 elliott: well that _is_ technically several different ones, i believe. 21:05:05 I'm still getting excessive buffering on uplink, even though I've throttled that to the point that load doesn't appear to cause RTT to go up. :/ 21:05:08 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Going!). 21:05:28 elliott, was the analysis complete when you lost connection? 21:05:33 -!- variable has joined. 21:05:34 i have a default one in sweden and irc. as backup. 21:05:38 Vorpal: yes. 21:05:42 it presents it all in one go. 21:05:43 elliott, ah good 21:05:54 oerjan: YOU WOULD ASSOCIATE WITH SWEDES? 21:06:07 elliott, as long as it completed then since otherwise I bet that would have screwed it up 21:06:22 -!- augur has joined. 21:07:09 elliott, as for filtered ports. I guess SMTP? 21:08:01 yes. and netbios and stuff. 21:08:02 for me. 21:08:24 elliott, that's quite sane 21:09:17 elliott, I would probably do the same for non-business customers when it comes to SMTP if I ran the network operations for an ISP. And NetBIOS I would definitely block for everyone out. 21:09:39 pikhq, I wonder why it reports "No DNS Port Randomization" 21:09:41 elliott: for quite a while there was no freenode server in norway. i think there is one again now but i haven't bothered to change. 21:09:42 pikhq, :/ 21:10:03 pikhq, I use unbound after all 21:10:41 Vorpal: You're set up for a DNS cache poisoning. 21:10:53 Vorpal: Check your unbound settings. 21:11:00 pikhq, hm 21:11:10 elliott, I would probably do the same for non-business customers when it comes to SMTP if I ran the network operations for an ISP. And NetBIOS I would definitely block for everyone out. 21:11:12 meh. 21:11:16 blocking smtp doesn't help anything. 21:11:26 and blocking netbios is pointless, that hasn't been a threat in like 200 yeras. 21:11:28 *years. 21:11:34 Fucking with the tubes is why every ISP sucks. 21:11:45 elliott, it prevents sending spam from botnets on those computers 21:11:47 so yes it helps 21:11:59 Vorpal: And that's why nobody gets any spam! 21:12:13 elliott, well, it would be worse if they didn't block that 21:12:19 No it wouldn't. 21:12:29 John Gilmore gazes sadly at thee. 21:12:36 Vorpal: Uh, blocking outgoing SMTP prevents people from using *normal mail clients*. 21:12:47 Vorpal: You know that strongSwan thing you love? 21:12:49 pikhq, great. My IPv6 has asymmetric MTU... 21:12:59 Derives from code written by John Gilmore, who now hates you. :P 21:13:02 *Derived 21:13:16 elliott, openbsd? 21:13:22 What? 21:13:26 No, FreeS/WAN. 21:13:34 elliott, why would Gilmore hate me? 21:13:35 Of which strongSwan is a fork. 21:13:40 elliott, I'm aware 21:13:41 Vorpal: Because he runs an open mail relay. 21:13:46 elliott, hah 21:13:53 And hates a lot of anti-spammers because of it. 21:14:03 (His ISP disabled his connection after a bunch of people yelled.) 21:14:12 He owns the domain toad.com which is one of the 100 oldest active .com domains. It was registered on August 18, 1987. He runs the mail server at toad.com as an open mail relay. In October 2002, Gilmore's ISP, Verio, cut off his Internet access for running an open relay, a violation of Verio's terms of service. Many people contend that open relays make it too easy to send spam. Gilmore protests that his mail server was programmed to be essentially 21:14:12 useless to spammers and other senders of mass email and he argues that Verio's actions constitute censorship. He also notes that his configuration makes it easier for friends who travel to send email, although his critics counter that there are other mechanisms to accommodate people wanting to send email while traveling. The measures Gilmore took to make his server useless to spammers may or may not have helped, considering that in 2002, at leas 21:14:13 t one massmailing worm that sent through open relays—W32.Yaha—had been hardcoded to relay through the toad.com mailserver. An article citing this was posted, and a subsequent discussion on the issue took place, on Declan McCullagh's Politechbot mailing list. to archived article and discussion 21:14:33 pikhq, any idea what in unbound settings I should look for? 21:14:34 pikhq: Blocking outgoing SMTP just means everyone configures your whitelisted SMTP server as their "outgoing mail" server; I thought that was pretty much common practice. I mean, normal email clients don't do direct-to-MX mail delivery. 21:14:51 To be honest, blocking open mail relays does not really help at all. 21:14:55 The spam problem is way too big for that to matter at all. 21:15:11 Vorpal: Not a clue; it "just works" for me. 21:15:14 pikhq, I see nothing obviously wrong. So it would have to be bad defaults. 21:15:56 pikhq, hm I suspect my NAT might be doing something strange with DNS requests 21:15:59 pikhq, that would make sense 21:16:02 fizzie: Funny, by having a single SMTP server whitelisted then you're either making it so that people can only use the ISP's mail service *or* you're giving them a completely open relay. 21:16:10 fizzie: Which *actually allows spam*. 21:16:21 Windows was being weird 21:16:40 A YouTube video randomly lept to my desktop 21:17:07 elliott, btw SMTP was not blocked for me 21:17:15 Vorpal: OH NOES SPAMME 21:17:18 elliott, :P 21:17:22 pikhq, any idea about: pikhq, great. My IPv6 has asymmetric MTU... 21:17:30 Vorpal: Not a clue. 21:17:36 pikhq: The ISP's whitelisted server of course allows "spam" coming from their customer networks, yes. It's not an "open relay" though. 21:17:38 pikhq, also "Your system can send fragmented traffic, but can not receive fragmented traffic over IPv6." 21:17:57 fizzie: Close enough as far as a botnet is concerned. 21:18:13 Assuming a botnet smart enough to actually figure out which SMTP server is allowed. 21:18:32 pikhq, and what about password for SMTP server? 21:18:40 Vorpal: Botnet can sniff. 21:18:43 true 21:18:43 -!- invariable has joined. 21:18:58 -!- invariable has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:19:17 The server address is probably diggable from Outlook/Thunderbird/maybe-a-few-more-clients configuration settings pretty easily for say 98% of hosts. 21:19:21 Basically, blocking SMTP does very little beyond making things inconvenient for legit use. 21:20:19 elliott, err wait it says I'm good on SMTP out for ipv6 but it doesn't even list it for ipv4 21:20:43 It's still not exactly an unknown practice. I'm not sure what my ISP does, since I'm just using their outgoing SMTP server anyway. 21:21:13 Your system can successfully look up IPv6 addresses. Your DNS resolver is not on Google's IPv6 "whitelist", which means that Google does not enable IPv6 access to their services for you. 21:21:16 * pikhq appears to have all outgoing ports allowed. 21:21:17 Why do they point that out 21:21:23 that it isn't done by google? 21:21:32 I don't think there are any ISPs that don't provide an open-to-their-customers SMTP relay server, though; it's not like the customers in question have anything else to put in their email client's outgoing-server configurations. 21:21:36 Vorpal: because google's ipv6 whitelist is important 21:21:41 elliott, err? 21:21:42 Vorpal: they leave off services that have problems or something 21:21:43 iirc 21:21:53 hm okay 21:21:55 Vorpal: Google currently only hands out AAAA records to whitelisted servers on networks that have working IPv6. 21:22:02 Vorpal: I think there's some IPv6-enabled services that, when Google gave them IPv6 access, IPv4 access to Google got way slower 21:22:03 pikhq, I see 21:22:06 or something 21:22:35 elliott: The issue is that broken systems will claim to have IPv6 but not actually have it. 21:22:37 elliott, I can imagine that ipv6 is slower than ipv4 in a lot of cases as well as there being timeouts on ipv6 first 21:22:41 pikhq: Rite. 21:22:43 elliott: Causing them to wait for a IPv6 timeout. 21:22:45 Which is why you can't send AAAA JUST ANYWHERE 21:22:52 "To qualify for Google over IPv6, your network must meet a number of requirements. These include: 21:22:52 Low latency, redundant paths to Google using direct peering or reliable transit 21:22:52 Production-quality IPv6 support and reliability 21:22:52 Separate DNS servers for your IPv6 users (not shared with IPv4-only users) 21:22:52 Users who have opted in to IPv6 services and know how to opt out if they experience problems with Google services" 21:22:56 They have quite some requirements there. 21:23:01 There's even worse problems: Some systems have IPv6 connectivity but the path is broken somewhere. 21:23:25 fizzie: Those requirements are sure to change soon. 21:23:40 "Users who have opted in to IPv6 services and know how to opt out if they experience problems with Google services" 21:23:40 heh 21:23:41 Vorpal: IPv6 is only "slower" if your system is set to try IPv6 first but they service doesn't offer IPv6 but it does provide AAAA records 21:23:41 Ilari, that happens a lot on ipv6 :P 21:23:44 No more than a year until we've got v6-only hosts going up. 21:23:55 variable, no it is slower if you have an ipv6 tunnel 21:23:56 variable: or if your isp is broken 21:23:57 variable, ... 21:23:59 elliott: The issue is that broken systems will claim to have IPv6 but not actually have it. 21:24:01 elliott: Causing them to wait for a IPv6 timeout. 21:24:09 variable, as I have 21:24:11 Vorpal: ok - or if you have a tunnel 21:24:12 I have already seen v6-only hosts. 21:24:18 Ilari, really? 21:24:27 variable: or if your isp is broken --> same with V4 21:24:28 Ilari: Probably not common, though. 21:24:34 variable: uh, not really 21:24:38 variable: because every isp supports v4 21:24:39 Even included v6 address literals. 21:24:43 variable: IPv4 breakage is obvious. 21:24:46 claim to have v6 + don't support v6 + AAAA -> timeout 21:24:48 --> slow 21:25:10 I have seen even more bizarre IPv6 breakage than paths not working. 21:25:11 IPv6 breakage will be perceived as "Dang, this site is slow. WTF?" 21:25:35 (unless the host is v6-only, in which case it's obvious again. This is just not a common case yet.) 21:26:27 Basically: TCP connection establishes (paths both ways working) but then the connection instahangs as first packet other end sends gets blackholed. There will be no fallback to IPv4 since the connection established. 21:26:49 pikhq, okay the port for DNS issue is due to my NAT. I checked with wireshark... 21:26:54 fuck speedtouch 21:26:56 I wonder how good Bogons' IPv6 is. 21:27:04 Vorpal: That's perverse. 21:27:39 Your NAT is broken. 21:27:53 At least I'd have a static IP 21:27:55 *IP. 21:27:59 And could use a proper router. 21:28:28 pikhq, yes I blame speedtouch 21:28:55 SpeedTouch gateways have been criticized because the algorithm used by the manufacturer to set both the default SSID and the corresponding WEP/WPA-PSK/WPA2-PSK passwords was very easily compromised, meaning that wireless access to SpeedTouch models that still use the default password is easily possible.[20] 21:28:57 elliott, I could use a proper router by reconfiguring the adsl modem to not do NAT and then buy an expensive router 21:29:09 Vorpal: I mean: I could use a proper Linksys modem too. 21:29:11 Generic. 21:29:15 Because Bogons aren't assholes. 21:29:19 Vorpal: Eeeew. 21:29:28 elliott, uh my speedtouch didn't have default settings for either of those and required you to fill that in. 21:29:28 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:29:30 pikhq, ? 21:29:45 pikhq, " pikhq, yes I blame speedtouch" -> " Vorpal: Eeeew." or? 21:29:47 -!- elliott has joined. 21:29:53 FUCK THIS BULLSHIT 21:29:55 THIS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE LIKE TODAY 21:29:59 AND MAYBE YESTERDAY NIGHT 21:30:07 Vorpal: SpeedTouch seems to be filled with security violations, then. 21:30:18 elliott, anyway: elliott, uh my speedtouch didn't have default settings for either of those and required you to fill that in. 21:30:33 elliott, and well default SSID/pass. Keeping those is just stupid anyway 21:30:47 elliott, if you do that it isn't the manufacture's fault. It is your own fault. 21:30:56 * elliott 's SSID is Revolutionary Opticians. don't ask. 21:31:14 elliott, mine is a randomly generated string. Well pseudo-randomly 21:31:32 Previously it was "supersonic mosquitos", which is just as meaningless. 21:31:40 Vorpal: I don't think it's reasonable to expect random users to set their own SSID. 21:31:48 elliott, if I manufactured an AP I would make it use the default SSID "CONFIGURE THIS" and the default password "FILL THIS IN" 21:31:48 mine is "lifetime supply" with a password of some random foodstuff 21:32:01 Vorpal: Oh please. 21:32:05 elliott, ? 21:32:07 What's wrong with -? 21:32:22 There's no reason users should have to be bugged with setting that. 21:32:25 Vorpal: most users wouldn't change - even though it says to 21:32:26 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:32:34 elliott, right. Windows should come with default password for your account too 21:33:01 -!- elliott has joined. 21:33:02 elliott, right. Windows should come with default password for your account too. 21:33:03 elliott, I COMPLETELY AGREE! 21:33:06 elliott, if I manufactured an AP I would make it use the default SSID "CONFIGURE THIS" and the default password "FILL THIS IN" 21:33:09 mine is "lifetime supply" with a password of some random foodstuff 21:33:11 Vorpal: Oh please. 21:33:13 elliott, ? 21:33:14 elliott, I got that... 21:33:15 What's wrong with -? 21:33:17 There's no reason users should have to be bugged with setting that. 21:33:21 Vorpal: Dude. SSID != password ... 21:33:27 Who gives a shit what your SSID is if you have a good password? 21:33:32 elliott, true but for the password for the network 21:33:44 elliott, so okay the SSID could be randomised like you suggest 21:33:50 but the password would be FILL THIS IN 21:33:53 or such 21:34:13 Instead of "FILL THIS IN" why not just have it redirect all pages to a "yo gimme a password" screen. 21:34:17 Then people would actually see it :P 21:34:52 elliott, I assumed it would be required to change on that "first setup" page you get 21:35:12 elliott, you know, where you enter stuff like ADSL login and what not 21:35:26 Right. 21:35:47 Vorpal: Forgot about it, but I did in fact also plot the overall match-length histogram back then: http://zem.fi/~fis/cycleh15b.png 21:36:07 But while we're dreaming, can we eliminate ADSL too? 21:36:16 Vorpal: people would be guaranteed to enter one and just forget what they put in. It would be better to provide one to the user with a warning that says "print this out" -> its better to tell the user to take affirmative action to remember things than passive action to "not forget" things 21:36:22 fizzie, is the x-axis tape length? 21:36:34 pikhq: i followed the *.abuse.email (iirc) newgroup for a while during the 90's. blocking outgoing smtp was very much considered an essential prevention agains spam then. 21:36:40 WiFi passwords are a bit pointless, "pairing" seems much saner 21:36:44 Vorpal: No, it's the match length in 10^x cycles. It's a match length histogram, after all. 21:36:52 WiFi passwords are a bit pointless, "pairing" seems much saner ---> agreed 21:36:54 where you have to physically press a button on the router to let a new MAC connect 21:36:55 But while we're dreaming, can we eliminate ADSL too? <-- yeah but it is unlikely you would get cable everywhere that you could get ADSL 21:36:57 cost reasons 21:37:02 Vorpal: Cable? Fibre. 21:37:15 elliott: or even just a number on the device with a "pairing password" or whatever 21:37:16 elliott, that is even more unlikely outside cities 21:37:18 elliott: Fibre? Telepathy. 21:37:28 Vorpal: Eh, it's happening... 21:37:40 What was that place that was rolling out fibre into shitloads of rural areas? .au? 21:37:47 Fibre and the last few tens of metres with Ethernet? :-) 21:37:48 elliott, by my norm, some 90% of UK is densely populated :P 21:37:59 Yes, it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadband_Network 21:38:06 elliott, heh 21:38:15 Committed download speeds of 100 megabits per second, and peak download speeds of 1 gigabit per second for 93% of Australia homes and businesses[10] using a Gigabit Passive optical network (GPON) or Ethernet Point to Point fibre[11] 21:38:15 The remainder of Australian homes and businesses will be serviced by a combination of next generation wireless and satellite technologies with a minimum speed of 12 megabits per second 21:39:05 err... what 21:39:05 Ilari: Underground Ethernet cables, I like it :P 21:39:09 Vorpal: ? 21:39:11 *prods ipv6 config* 21:39:37 elliott, the bottleneck listed for the assymetric MTU is my tunnel endpoint 21:39:39 XD 21:39:42 Vorpal: Anyway, even by your norm Australia is like 0% densely populated :P 21:39:46 I have no idea what is going on here 21:39:51 So fibre on a wide scale _is_ feasible... 21:40:45 elliott, ... "[...] providing download speeds of up to 1 Gigabit per second to 93% of Australian homes and businesses, with the remaining 7% of premises being connected at up to 12 Megabits per second using wireless and satellite technologies," 21:40:55 elliott, now. About what percentage lives in the outback? 21:41:00 Vorpal: It's not about the outback. 21:41:01 elliott, 8-10% ? 21:41:03 :P 21:41:13 elliott, of course it is feasible in Sydney 21:41:15 Vorpal: There's plenty of rural areas near the cities that aren't in the outback :P 21:41:15 and so on 21:41:28 ISTR news stories about them laying down fibre in such places. 21:41:29 elliott, yes but outback is where the big problems start 21:41:46 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/io failed). 21:41:47 I think people in the outback are happy enough to have water, never mind fibre-optic broadband :P 21:42:09 elliott, indeed. And I suspect they are about 7%, perhaps slightly more or slightly less 21:42:32 -!- variable has joined. 21:42:32 I doubt 7%. Less. 21:42:38 elliott, right 21:42:53 Vorpal: But anyway, if we're talking about its relevancy to other countries, we can just pretend the outback doesn't exist X-P 21:43:02 Ilari: Sonera seems to be doing quite a lot of "fibre to the basement" sort of stuff nowadays, and then the last few metres with VDSL2 (for buildings with no suitable Ethernets in them, of course). 21:43:22 Fibre to the room. You need to run copper from there to your computer. 21:43:40 Fibre to the head. 21:43:47 fizzie, that doesn't help us who live in freestanding houses 21:44:02 Fibre to the one-cm-gap-to-your-Ethernet-port. 21:44:10 There's a teeny tiny Ethernet connecting the rest of the way. 21:44:11 Vorpal: I'm sure they'd be willing to dig a cable to your place too if you just fork over enough money. :p 21:44:16 elliott: I've seen proposals to have fibre to the computer 21:44:23 FIBRE TO THE MOTHERBOARD 21:44:28 elliott, fibre to the on-board fibre controller in your laptop :P 21:44:29 "Just gonna open up your computer here, hope you don't mind" 21:44:30 (and cut out the ethernet connection entirely) 21:44:33 elliott, I doubt that will happen 21:44:54 variable, the issue with that is distributing it to a LAN 21:44:55 variable: That's kind of impractical unless we get fibre routers. 21:44:59 Which would be "interesting". 21:45:20 elliott, fibre *switches* do exist, no? 21:45:34 elliott: Vorpal I'm very much aware of that. Nonetheless I've seen serious proposals (from people in the business) to offer this 21:45:34 I suppose it could work if everybody normal used wifi, and the SPEED DEMONS plugged the fibre cable in to their DECKED OUT motherboard. 21:45:45 Consumer use of Ethernet is dying out I'd say. 21:46:10 elliott, what, really? 21:46:12 elliott, hm 21:46:21 Vorpal: It's all wireless nowadays. 21:46:21 elliott, but wifi is slow and unreliable 21:46:31 -n is "slow"? 21:46:33 By what definition? 21:46:37 "unreliable"? By what definition? 21:46:51 elliott, by comparing to gbit ethernet over S/UTP :P 21:46:55 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:46:56 -!- invariable has joined. 21:47:03 Vorpal: Yeah, nobody uses that. 21:47:05 So that's irrelevant. 21:47:17 elliott, anyway, everyone seems to use channel 6 or 11.... 21:47:23 so stick to 13, then you are mostly good to go 21:47:33 needs manual reconfiguration in your AP likely 21:47:44 elliott, also I use that 21:47:50 Vorpal: Yes, but you're not a Person. 21:47:57 You do not factor in to any statistics. 21:47:59 elliott, besides I doubt computers will be without ethernet for some time to come 21:48:02 Your use-case does not exist. 21:48:12 802.11n speeds in reality do tend to be a bit less-than-impressive, at least with the AP behind a few walls and so on. Perfectly usable for most things, of course, but not the promised multi-hundred-megabits all the time. 21:48:13 elliott, becuase companies use it 21:48:17 Vorpal: I'm sure it'll happen on laptops very, very quickly. 21:48:21 elliott, thinkpads? 21:48:22 Businesses are an excuse to sell business machines. 21:48:24 elliott, really? 21:48:32 Vorpal: Nobody apart from business uses ThinkPads. 21:48:39 elliott, *ahem* 21:48:49 Vorpal: I don't really know what Sonera's fibre-to-the-basement business model is; our apartment building (with 48 apartments) got a letter from Sonera that they'd like to dig a cable (or use an existing pipe) to our telephone center box completely free of charge; we're sort of expecting they're going to follow with another letter somewhere along the lines of "now that you have our cable there, how about some speedy internets?" 21:49:01 Vorpal: You do not exist. Nobody is going to make decisions based on your use-case, which does not exist. 21:49:03 802.11n speeds in reality do tend to be a bit less-than-impressive, at least with the AP behind a few walls and so on. Perfectly usable for most things, of course, but not the promised multi-hundred-megabits all the time. <-- indeed 21:49:12 You are one percent of a percent of a percent of a percent of a percent of a percent. 21:49:15 fizzie, let me see what I get on 11g here... *fiddles with laptop* 21:49:16 Which is 0 percent. 21:49:31 curse you, why do you take ages to connect 21:49:58 fizzie: Buffer bloat kills 802.11. 21:50:00 11 Mb/s according to iwconfig 21:50:05 now down to 1 21:50:18 elliott, this is 11g though, but the laptop can do 11n as well 21:50:32 Vorpal: You probably have seconds of buffer. 21:50:33 pikhq: that and double-up/half-back 21:50:50 (which hurts speeds in general) 21:50:54 up to 18 Mb/s now 21:50:59 pikhq, hm? 21:51:04 pikhq, on that laptop yes I would have that 21:51:12 pikhq, I normally hook it up on gbit ethernet when home 21:51:12 :P 21:51:13 Which kills TCP congestion control, which kills latency and bandwidth. 21:51:27 pikhq, and it's up to 24 Mb/s now 21:51:27 And makes congested links entirely unusable. 21:52:51 * pikhq would like to beat all the people who think that no packet loss is a desirable thing. 21:52:59 pikhq, ping reports rtt to google.com over wlan as avg of 33.114 ms. Let me hook it back up on ethernet and compare 21:53:02 pikhq: ditto 21:53:13 Vorpal: Try saturating the link and then pinging google.com. 21:53:27 pikhq, meh I don't want to flood myself off irc :P 21:53:33 pikhq: Ah - but - the gamers. 21:53:37 "ping google.com" 21:53:40 "0% packet loss" 21:53:47 "FUCK YEA MY CONNECTION IMA FRAG SOME NOOBS WITH MY ULTRA-LOW PINGIZZLE" 21:53:49 elliott: Actually, the gamers want to minimise latency. 21:53:57 pikhq: That's factor A. 21:54:00 You're forgetting factor B. 21:54:01 elliott: packet loss != latency 21:54:03 Factor B: Gamers are retarded. 21:54:06 invariable: See above. 21:54:15 And oddly enough, the smarter ones have been mitigating bufferbloat for a while now. 21:54:17 pikhq, anyway for gbit ethernet it is 31.338 average 21:54:26 These are the same people who build glow-in-the-dark watercooled monstrosities :P 21:54:30 pikhq, but note I'm on channel 13, and that is not crowded for some reason 21:54:35 Vorpal: Saturate the link. 21:54:37 And tweak Windows god knows how much. 21:54:39 pikhq, it seems auto selecting of channels try to skip it 21:54:53 pikhq, by scping something to another computer on the lan or? 21:54:57 Latency on an uncongested link is not a very good measure any more... 21:55:18 Vorpal: Well, that depends on which buffer you want to see at max. :P 21:55:32 *sigh* measuring internet speeds have been the subject of PhD thesis 21:55:33 pikhq, I will not be able to saturate ethernet for it. Since it is the only computer turned on atm with gbit ethernet 21:56:29 invariable: Doesn't require a doctorate to realise that latency on uncongested links is not very important when congestion can add seconds of latency. 21:56:29 MY INTERNETS ARE FAST BECAUSE I GET -3 MS PING 21:56:33 THAT'S RIGHT 21:56:36 pikhq: I know 21:56:37 PING RESPONSES COME BEFORE I SEND THEM 21:56:51 But, yeah, it certainly can be complex. 21:56:52 invariable, that is because things are so stupid. Something like the CAN bus is dead trivial to figure out 21:57:00 (of course it wouldn't scale) 21:57:03 invariable: "It's the Latency, Stupid" amuses me highly 21:57:15 elliott: what do you mean? 21:57:20 http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html 21:57:35 invariable: The page: MODEMS HAVE 100 MS LATENCY! Me: Damn, I wish I got that kind of ping. 21:57:50 pikhq, err, I have QoS setup I think from an earlier experiment. So it might not be as easy to check this. 21:57:55 * pikhq gets 80ms ping to Google. 21:58:14 Vorpal: QoS != avoiding buffer bloat. 21:58:19 pikhq, true 21:58:20 pikhq: odd. I read _A lot_ about this subject and have not come across this before 21:58:25 Vorpal: Unless you've got it set to shape bandwidth to slightly less than provisioned. 21:58:30 invariable: really? 21:58:31 it's quite famous 21:58:41 pikhq, I forgot what I set it up 21:58:44 to do 21:58:51 elliott: hence the "odd" - I'm reading it now 21:59:06 Vorpal: Your local network is probably still susceptible, but your WAN link should be just fine. 21:59:19 pikhq, anyway doesn't 802.11 do checksuming and resending across the *link*. As opposed to normal wired connections that do it at the endpoints 21:59:50 pikhq, I seem to remember this 21:59:52 Vorpal: 802.11 doesn't do resending at all. 21:59:56 pikhq, really? 21:59:58 hm 22:00:07 It's a minor modification of the Ethernet scheme. 22:00:23 pikhq, could be I confused it with wimax or 3G or something then 22:00:37 3G does checksumming and resending across the link, yes. 22:00:52 And a large number of other things that really fuck with TCP. 22:01:00 pikhq, right. Which is very strange. It goes against one of the major keypoints to making internet scale 22:01:10 elliott: actually - I did see it before. I recall the conclusion of the article. Maybe I saw a quote? 22:01:19 invariable: Mm. 22:01:19 Vorpal: Telephone networks are set up assuming that the network is smart and the endpoints are retarded. 22:01:34 Vorpal: The Internet is set up assuming that the network is retarded and the endpoints are smart. 22:01:40 pikhq, uh... but that is no longer true for data traffic over 3G 22:01:41 :P 22:01:52 So, what we're seeing is impedence mismatch between the two spaces. 22:01:54 pikhq: I like that analogy 22:02:12 invariable: pikhq: Also: "Everyone knows that when you buy a hard disk you should check what its seek time is. The maximum transfer rate is something you might also be concerned with, but the seek time is definitely more important." 22:02:17 invariable: pikhq: I WISH THAT WERE STILL TRUE. 22:02:18 But oh no. 22:02:21 MY DRIVE IS 10KRPM!! LOL! 22:02:22 FAST! 22:02:25 invariable, I don't see that it is an analogy. It seems plain fact 22:02:42 Vorpal: s/analogy/way of stating it/ 22:02:57 I know its true - but I've never been able to explain it easily 22:02:58 Like the idiots who dismiss SSDs because, omg, their linear transfer rate isn't as good as my 1000000000KRPM "RAPTORSAURUS SEX"! 22:03:00 invariable, indeed 22:03:04 ... 22:03:04 *REX 22:03:13 But sure, 1000000000 krpm raptosaurus sex. 22:03:24 elliott, Freud was right 22:03:47 Vorpal: INDEED, LIKE HE SAID, SOMETIMES A CIGAR IS JUST A CIGAR, LIKE NOW. STOP LOOKING AT MY CIGAR. 22:03:48 Vorpal: I've been working on my soft skills (writing, etc) because I know a lot of the "hard" stuff already - I like seeing better ways to explain things :-) 22:03:55 elliott, XD 22:04:21 invariable, resort to technical terms. 22:04:25 ;) 22:04:25 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:04:34 elliott: I dislike SSDs because of the fast failure rate. Once that's under control (and the price is reasonable) I'll care a lot more 22:04:47 -!- elliott has joined. 22:04:52 I dislike SSD because of the price yeah. 22:04:53 invariable, resort to technical terms. 22:04:55 Vorpal: WHAT A GREAT IDEA 22:04:57 * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). 22:04:59 CONSPIRACY. 22:05:04 elliott: 22:05:05 invariable, resort to technical terms. 22:05:05 ;) 22:05:06 + elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:05:11 14:04:34 elliott: I dislike SSDs because of the fast failure rate. Once that's under control (and the price is reasonable) I'll care a lot more 22:05:14 elliott, do you think I was serious? 22:05:21 invariable: The failure rate isn't fast on any good SSDs that I know of (Intel). 22:05:23 Vorpal: I didn't see the ;) :P 22:05:26 invariable: SSD's failure rate is pretty low by now. 22:05:32 invariable: Think "years of constant use". 22:05:36 invariable: Besides, the failure mode is "becomes read-only". 22:05:47 elliott, that is *one* failure mode 22:05:47 Oh, and the failure rate is, of course, based on number of write cycles. 22:05:47 invariable: Which is a lot better than mechanical disks' failure mode, which is "OH GOD MY DATA". 22:05:49 but not the only one 22:05:51 -!- StukaBR has joined. 22:05:52 Vorpal: The most common failure mode by far :P 22:05:53 pikhq: its still worse than typical HDDs. And its not pure failure rate. its sector failure rate 22:06:09 invariable: I would trust data to an Intel SSD more than I would trust it to any mechanical disk. 22:06:18 Unlike mechanical disk's failure rate, which is based on time running. 22:06:18 invariable: Besides, the failure mode is "becomes read-only". --> this is interesting 22:06:26 And spin-up cycles. 22:06:28 invariable: Because, again, by FAR the most common way for an SSD to fail is: after lots and lots of writing, data becomes read-only. 22:06:29 I will switch to SSD when I can afford two 1 TB ones 22:06:31 to use in RAID 1 22:06:46 elliott: interesting - I'd like to read more about that 22:06:48 If you put some data on an SSD, and leave it for 50 years, you've got a damn good chance of being able to read it back. Perhaps even longer. 22:06:50 do you have a link ? 22:06:54 Those are just guesses of course. 22:07:03 * invariable may change my mind on SSDs 22:07:10 invariable: Hmm, no, I haven't, but AnandTech is my source for SSD-related info. 22:07:10 invariable, his* 22:07:15 invariable, /me uses third person 22:07:15 Vorpal: Yes, the capacity/dollar ratio is the only downside to SSDs right now. 22:07:20 Vorpal: That's just around 5 kiloeur; you are so cheap! 22:07:25 fizzie, :P 22:07:25 Vorpal: MEH 22:07:28 invariable: Quick google brings up this (HIGHLY RELIABLE) forum thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2020590 22:07:37 "It depends on the failure mode. For instance, when set on fire, hard drives and SSDs both provide equally fantastic recovery rates of 0%. " 22:07:58 "For certain failure modes, it is believed that SSDs will still allow you to recover whatever data was previously on the drive; that said, all the SSD failures I've ever heard of have been non-recoverable firmware issues." ;; this is probably true because it's hard to invoke the real failure mode... but Intel SSD firmware is good from what i hear 22:07:58 fizzie, and for hdds it is like.... 2000 SEK? 22:08:00 also that was in 2009 22:08:02 fizzie, something like that 22:08:03 SSDs are much more mature now 22:08:05 elliott: Not quite. It may be possible to have a forensics lab extract some data. 22:08:10 THIS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE LIKE TODAY <-- wild hypothesis: isps are no starting to scramble to get ipv6 working and breaking everything else in the process 22:08:11 elliott: *Thermite*, on the other hand. 22:08:17 oerjan: :D 22:08:21 fizzie, which is about 220 EUR 22:08:26 230* 22:08:27 but still 22:08:29 -!- StukaBR has quit. 22:08:47 invariable: Anyway the only sane thing to put on SSDs nowadays is OS and software because of the capacity/cost ratio. 22:08:55 Mmmmm, hot enough to randomise the magnetic domains. 22:08:58 For those, you don't really care how reliable the data is. :P 22:09:05 (Who backs up their OS?) 22:09:14 elliott: Windows users. 22:09:14 THIS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE LIKE TODAY <-- wild hypothesis: isps are no starting to scramble to get ipv6 working and breaking everything else in the process <-- too good to be true 22:09:18 Vorpal: 1 TB SATA HDs are somewhere around 50-60 eur, so it's 120 EUR for 2*1TB. 22:09:27 *Such* a fucking pain to reinstall. 22:09:30 pikhq: PFFT LIKE ANYBODY USES WINDOWS. 22:09:30 elliott: yes - this is true. If I had the money I might actually look into doing so 22:09:51 elliott, I like your statistics. First you dismiss me as 0%, then you do the same to windows users 22:09:53 :D 22:09:59 Vorpal: I don't think it's reasonable to expect random users to set their own SSID. <-- heck my landlady cannot even find where she mislaid the passwords that _were_ set... 22:10:23 (which means no one but her actually gets to use the wireless) 22:10:31 invariable: Wellll, the lucky people who have newegg can get a 40 Gio Intel SSD for $94.99. 22:10:33 oerjan, why doesn't she just get a paperclip and push it into the reset hole? 22:10:36 (Well, if it weren't out of stock.) 22:10:40 invariable: And 80 Gio for $171.99. 22:11:06 Where 80 Gio ~= 86 Go, of course. 22:11:07 elliott: my budget for computer parts was exhausted recently when I bought another 2GB stick of ram :-\ 22:11:13 A "mere" $4000 for a 1TB SSD. 22:11:27 Sorry, 1TiB. 22:11:29 invariable: Hehe... must be a pretty small budget considering how cheap RAM is :) unless you're on DDR or something. 22:11:34 (Can you even get 2 Gio DDR sticks?) 22:11:37 elliott: it was $30 22:11:39 elliott, what is wrong with the word "byte" 22:11:47 elliott, why are you using octets suddenly 22:11:48 Vorpal: There have been systems with 9-bit bytes. 22:11:52 elliott, true... 22:11:59 elliott: I need to pay for other things... like university :-\\ 22:12:00 And because I'm legally obligated to rip off Deewiant at every available opportunity. 22:12:03 invariable: :-) 22:12:06 elliott, he did that? 22:12:09 Who needs university when you have computers! 22:12:15 Vorpal: His Fungicide results use "io", yes. 22:12:23 Except with a capital K for Kio because he's a Nazi. 22:12:24 elliott, so why do you not use bits As in... 320 Gib? 22:12:33 elliott: unfortunately one can't get grant money without a degree :-\ 22:12:38 Vorpal: WAY TO NOT PUNCTUATE, got confused there 22:12:47 Vorpal: But yes, I would use b to denote internet speeds. 22:12:52 My internet connection is 8 Mib. 22:12:56 elliott, oops missed a . indeed 22:12:58 (I suppose it might technically be 8 Mb, but I doubt it.) 22:13:09 *Mib/s 22:13:09 *Mb/s 22:13:13 (Since I've got 1 Mio/s download occassionally.) 22:13:16 I only use o and bit because b is overloaded 22:13:26 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:13:37 elliott, wow I have two 8 Gib HDDs. Isn't that impressive. 22:13:37 XD 22:13:44 err 22:13:47 Well, when I don't care that much about comprehension, anyway 22:13:48 elliott, wow I have two 8 Tib HDDs. Isn't that impressive. 22:13:49 -!- elliott has joined. 22:13:49 even 22:13:53 elliott, wow I have two 8 Tib HDDs. Isn't that impressive. 22:13:54 elliott, ^ 22:13:54 I only use o and bit because b is overloaded 22:13:56 Deewiant: Not for all those people on systems with 9-bit bytes? 22:13:58 * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). 22:14:00 Deewiant: Using bytes is like measuring things in megawords! 22:14:03 elliott, I bet most people wouldn't notice the lower case b 22:14:04 It is a RELIC of the PAST!!! 22:14:04 Vorpal: when I installed the extra 2GB of ram I found an extra HDD in the case I didn't know I had 22:14:14 elliott: your connection is horid :-| 22:14:24 invariable: Yeah, I appear to have the same problem pikhq is having X-D 22:14:24 invariable, you what 22:14:30 elliott: Except worse. 22:14:31 Telecom people do tend to use M instead of Mi everywhere, so 8 Mbps sounds more likely. 22:14:31 invariable, was it unconnected? 22:14:32 elliott: b is overloaded to mean byte and bit, and byte is further overloaded :-P 22:14:34 pikhq: OH THANKS. 22:14:36 Vorpal: yes 22:14:40 invariable, SATA or PATA? 22:14:48 Vorpal: IDE :-( 22:14:49 elliott: Also, I trial-and-error'd the right MTU. 22:14:52 Deewiant: True, I wonder how invariable got ahold of 2 megabels of RAM. 22:14:56 *a hold of 22:15:04 invariable, okay you can still hook it up and use it for swap or such 22:15:11 invariable, most mobos still have some IDE connectors 22:15:14 ping -s SIZE -M do www.google.com 22:15:14 Vorpal: that is exactly what I did 22:15:18 invariable, and? 22:15:21 invariable, what was on it? 22:15:26 invariable, was the disk broken? 22:15:27 SECRET PLANS 22:15:31 The net here is *very* theoretically 24 Mbps, but it's never quite that even channel-wise. 22:15:33 SIZE will be 28 smaller than the actual link MTU. 22:15:34 invariable, was it a quantum fireball? 22:15:36 isn't IDE = PATA? 22:15:39 elliott, yes 22:15:41 Vorpal: nothing useful. Disk worked. using it for swap now 22:15:42 where = is pronounced "equal to" 22:15:42 elliott: No. 22:15:43 styx> wan adsl chandata 22:15:43 DSL standard: ADSL2+ Mode 22:15:43 near-end bit rate: 20282 kbps 22:15:43 far-end bit rate: 1015 kbps 22:15:48 Well, that's in fact quite close. 22:15:48 Vorpal: pikhq: FIGHT 22:15:51 elliott: PATA = ATA over IDE. 22:15:57 fizzie: What kind of monster uses > as a prompt? 22:15:59 pikhq: Heh. 22:16:02 indeed pikhq is right 22:16:04 IDE is a variant of ISA. 22:16:15 pikhq, what, really? 22:16:19 Vorpal: Yes. 22:16:25 pikhq, is IDE really a variant of the *ISA bus*? 22:16:27 elliott: It's a ZyXEL ADSL modem thingie; it runs something bizarrely named, I think it was ZyNOS. 22:16:28 Yes. 22:16:31 pikhq, crazy 22:16:45 Xenu. 22:16:47 pikhq, so did they use something else than ATA over IDE? 22:16:48 XenOS. 22:16:51 ZyNOS. 22:16:53 COINCIDENCE? 22:16:55 I THINK NOT. 22:17:00 Vorpal: PCI over IDE! 22:17:09 elliott, PCI over ISA is just silly :P 22:17:12 Vorpal: The IDE protocol. 22:17:19 pikhq, what is/was that? 22:17:25 PCI over IDE would be awesome. 22:17:29 "PLUG THE GRAPHICS CARD INTO YOUR HARD DRIVE PORT." 22:17:43 Oh, sorry, never mind. 22:17:50 PATA and IDE are synonyms. 22:17:53 pikhq, heh 22:18:03 pikhq, and was ISA ever involved? 22:18:04 ATAPI, however, *is* tunneled over IDE. 22:18:07 Vorpal: Yes. 22:18:11 pikhq, heh 22:18:27 Vorpal: The first IDE adapters were just cards with a port onto the ISA bus. 22:18:43 elliott: yeah - I only saw a quote from that article. thanks for linking me to the original 22:18:48 pikhq, no host controllers? 22:18:49 invariable: YOU'RE WELCOME 22:18:51 Later enhancements basically just clocked it faster. 22:18:57 Now why is GTK so terrible? 22:18:57 pikhq, so modern IDE was like... high speed ISA with some crazy DMA stuff? 22:18:57 API-wise. 22:19:11 pikhq, which sounds laughable 22:19:15 Which works just fine, because ISA actually has no fixed bus speed. 22:19:34 It originally used the CPU clock. 22:19:35 pikhq, true, but why did we get PCI then instead of just boosting ISA? 22:19:52 They only fixed it because the clock speed got to be too high for the physical connectors. 22:20:24 THIS IS SO STUPID 22:20:28 And yes, modern IDE is high-speed ISA with DMA tacked on. 22:20:37 pikhq, true, but why did we get PCI then instead of just boosting ISA? 22:20:37 WHY IS IT SO TERRIBLE. WHY. 22:20:46 Vorpal: ISA sucks ass. 22:20:58 pikhq, I see, but so does x86. Yet we still have it 22:21:14 Vorpal, because capitalism. 22:21:17 I see y'all don't feel my pain. 22:21:23 Phantom_Hoover, ... what? 22:21:36 Vorpal: The processors changed their system bus, so ISA was no longer the default. 22:21:42 elliott, switch to 3G or something for now... 22:21:49 pikhq, ah 22:21:52 Vorpal: not the net. i can deal with that. 22:21:56 i'm complaining about gtk being terribly-designed 22:22:00 elliott, oh 22:22:01 I just want to bind ctrl+a and ctrl+e properly :( 22:22:05 Yes, ISA was literally the *system bus* for x86 processors. 22:22:19 elliott, I presume you would have to subscribe to some sort of event? 22:22:31 elliott, GUI stuff tends to be event-driven iirc 22:22:31 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:22:32 Rather than try and devise a higher-speed ISA, motherboard manufacturers just grabbed PCI parts off the shelf, and voila. 22:22:46 pikhq, PCI existed before? 22:22:48 heh 22:22:52 -!- elliott has joined. 22:22:58 elliott, I presume you would have to subscribe to some sort of event? 22:22:59 elliott, GUI stuff tends to be event-driven iirc 22:22:59 + elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:22:59 elliott, I presume you would have to subscribe to some sort of event? 22:23:01 Vorpal: I've already handled /that/, the point is how to do it to the text widget, which is ABSTRACTED TO ALL HELL. 22:23:04 * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). 22:23:06 Vorpal: To wit: 22:23:19 Vorpal: A GtkSourceView displays the contents of a GtkSourceBuffer which knows what language it is (for some reason). 22:23:27 Vorpal: There are various GtkTextMarks or something in a SourceBuffer. 22:23:30 That hold various positions. 22:23:37 Including one for the cursor and one for the selection. 22:23:45 Vorpal: To change a mark, you have to make a GtkTextIter from the GtkSourceBuffer, 22:23:55 and then pass that to a method of the GtkSourceBuffer along with the GtkSomethingMark representing the cursor. 22:24:06 heh 22:24:07 Vorpal: PCI was created as a CPU-agnostic bus standard in '93. 22:24:11 And to top it all off, the TextIter API is TOTALLY UNINTUITIVE and I have NO IDEA how to just tell it to go to the start of the fucking line. 22:24:13 pikhq, I see 22:24:17 GOD. 22:24:25 pikhq, but the system bus stopped being PCI a long time ago 22:24:35 pikhq, and went to be things like HT and what not 22:24:38 Vorpal: The system bus was never PCI. 22:24:43 pikhq, oh okay 22:24:44 Vorpal: PCI is an expansion bus. 22:24:56 pikhq, FSB was the system bus for intel for a long time right? 22:25:11 Whereas ISA was literally a few lines drawn from the CPU socket. 22:25:19 elliott, check what it does for other keys. Or what gedit and such does 22:25:55 elliott: set_line(get_line())? 22:26:01 Vorpal: I can't look at what it does for other keys, it'll be written in C. 22:26:02 Vorpal: GObject C. 22:26:09 Same goes for gedit. 22:26:13 No mortal can read that. 22:26:22 Deewiant: Are those actual methods or did you just make 'em up? :P 22:26:43 elliott, ... weakling 22:26:46 I googled 'gtk textiter' and went to the first non-pygtk link and found those 22:26:48 Vorpal: GOBJECT. 22:26:54 Deewiant: I'm using pygtk X-D 22:27:07 oerjan, why doesn't she just get a paperclip and push it into the reset hole? <-- because she has no idea that such a thing exists? 22:27:09 Well, evidently pygtk has the same methods 22:27:13 Anyways, to get a clock speed faster than a few megahertz out of there, you would need to redo the physical attachment, and when you're doing that you may as well just grab a different bus. 22:27:16 Deewiant: I don't think that actually sends you back though. 22:27:19 You probably need set_line_index. 22:27:19 elliott, did you actually try google... 22:27:20 (i barely do myself) 22:27:23 Vorpal: YES FFS. 22:27:30 Especially one being backed by a major company. 22:27:35 (PCI is Intel's handiwork) 22:27:39 You probably need set_line_index. <-- try it 22:27:42 Deewiant: Oh, and I need the same behaviour as home/end, i.e. skipping whitespace at start and finish... and I bet I'll have to hack up my own to get that working for Ctrl+a/Ctrl+e. 22:27:43 elliott: "sets the textiter location to the start of the line", dude. 22:27:53 Again, Deewiant: Oh, and I need the same behaviour as home/end, i.e. skipping whitespace at start and finish... and I bet I'll have to hack up my own to get that working for Ctrl+a/Ctrl+e. 22:28:00 Anise soda: SO GOOD 22:28:06 elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:28:25 And PCI itself got replaced because 33 or 66 MHz sucks. 22:28:27 Deewiant: You will recall that my connection is fucked up beyond comprehension. 22:28:28 elliott: If you need stuff like that, the only way I can tell is to manually run backward/forward a char at a time 22:28:29 elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P <-- he does that a lot as I pointed out before 22:28:35 Gregor, blech. 22:28:39 Vorpal: Oh, shut up. 22:28:48 "Hooray", max speed of 533 MB/s. 22:28:53 Liquoricoids make me physically sick. 22:29:18 Phantom_Hoover: OMG IT IS SO GOOD 22:29:32 `addquote elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:29:33 Gregor: I WANT IT 22:29:38 What should I do next (I'm cycling through the single-flavorant sodas before mixing): Cinnamon, banana, or maple? 22:29:46 (133 MB/s on common equipment) 22:30:17 317) elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:30:25 Gregor, hmm. Cinnamon would be... interesting, and I suspect it'd blend with anise respectably. 22:30:27 `delquote 317 22:30:30 E_NOT_ACTUALLY_FUNNY 22:30:35 Gregor, maple 22:30:39 *poof* 22:30:41 elliott, no... 22:30:44 `addquote elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:30:44 317) elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:30:48 elliott, I will add it back 22:30:49 Even if it was an example of hypocrisy, this same conversation fits the same model: 22:31:03 elliott: You're a rapist! [LATER:] elliott: Ouch, stop raping people. 22:31:19 elliott, ... what? I don't think I said that. 22:31:49 Gregor, maple is the stupidest. 22:32:06 Phantom_Hoover: Maple is awesome. 22:32:18 Yes, but not as a drink. 22:32:37 Phantom_Hoover, drink maple syrup! 22:32:40 have I missed anything? 22:32:45 I think it might be a bit gross though 22:32:47 I haven't been paying attention 22:32:55 ais523, a few hours of random stuff? 22:33:03 ais523, also Anise soda: SO GOOD 22:33:06 Well, I once drank balsamic vinegar. 22:33:12 Gregor, DO THAT 22:33:14 Phantom_Hoover, ... ? 22:33:18 Phantom_Hoover, what... 22:33:43 ais523, seems he made himself some soda 22:34:01 I'm leaning towards maple. 22:34:02 I was little and I hadn't been forced to conform with normal standards of non-disgustingness. 22:34:07 Seems like it'd be a nifty cream soda. 22:34:08 Gregor, good idea 22:34:09 Gregor, -_- 22:34:34 Phantom_Hoover, just the idea of vinegar... 22:34:37 :/ 22:34:40 Gregor: ...maple cream soda sounds nice. 22:34:58 Gregor: PUT ICE CREAM IN IT 22:35:00 Phantom_Hoover, vinegar not in some other food stuff sounds nasty 22:35:14 Phantom_Hoover, and even vinegar in other foodstuff is rather nasty IMO 22:35:20 I still view salad as a carrier for vinegar, though. 22:35:33 Gregor, bacon & garlic soda 22:35:40 Vorpal: Maybe not :P 22:35:46 Gregor, just garlic then 22:36:17 Phantom_Hoover, I don't like salad with vinegar. I prefer salad without vinegar 22:36:19 How about liver and onions. 22:36:21 AND FISH! Wait, no.... 22:36:27 Gregor, liver, eww 22:36:34 Vorpal, SICK BASTARD 22:36:38 Gregor: Vinegar soda 22:36:44 Phantom_Hoover, what? because I hate liver? 22:36:48 HEALTH HEALTH HEALTH LOOK HOW HEALTHY I AM 22:36:55 Collected some egojoust statistics plots at http://zem.fi/~fis/egostats/ -- just the "global" ones, not per-participant or per-game ones -- and these are cranky results from a 5-programs-dropped hill, so the numbers might not make sense everywhere. (FFSPG gets a rather impressive 73.63 score here, at least partially due to the fact that careless, spookygoth and defend14, against which all it loses, aren't included.) 22:37:02 Phantom_Hoover, what are you talking about 22:37:09 Phantom_Hoover, liver just tastes horrible. 22:37:10 VINEGAR IS ONLY A SINGLE OXIDATION REACTION AWAY FROM ALCOHOL I ABSTAIN FROM IT 22:37:10 fizzie: Oh man it's so POLISHED. 22:37:21 elliott: It even has CSSSSS. (A few lines.) 22:37:21 `addquote VINEGAR IS ONLY A SINGLE OXIDATION REACTION AWAY FROM ALCOHOL I ABSTAIN FROM IT 22:37:22 317) VINEGAR IS ONLY A SINGLE OXIDATION REACTION AWAY FROM ALCOHOL I ABSTAIN FROM IT 22:37:30 elliott, fake quote 22:37:32 `delquote 317 22:37:33 also that number is off 22:37:35 *poof* 22:37:35 (See, diplomacy.) 22:37:41 `addquote elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:37:42 317) elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:37:47 elliott, I will add that quote back 22:37:50 Gregor: Vinegar soda // vinegar actually could be an ingredient in soda, you always need some acid. 22:37:53 NOTE: Vorpal does not understand that vinegar is in fact two oxidation reactions away from alcohol due to viewing chemistry as unhealthy. 22:38:05 Phantom_Hoover, ... I never disliked vinegar because of that 22:38:09 Phantom_Hoover, I just hate the taste 22:38:23 As you could in theory make DRUGS from the things you learn there. 22:38:24 Phantom_Hoover, and I don't remember how many oxidation states away it is 22:39:15 Phantom_Hoover, you seem to have a very wrong picture of me. I have nothing against drugs in general. There are ones without the horrible side effects of alcohol. 22:39:24 while I do not plan to try them myself currently 22:39:29 (mostly due to legal issues) 22:39:35 I have nothing against them in principle 22:39:36 THE HELL IS WITH MY CRAZY LATENCY RIGHT NOW? 22:39:47 + Ping reply from pikhq: 1.10 second(s) 22:39:52 pikhq, hm? 22:40:02 Vorpal: Yes, that's absurd. 22:40:12 pikhq, 1.10 seems quite decent for irc 22:40:32 Seconds. 22:40:37 `quote 317 22:40:38 317) elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:40:40 good there 22:40:50 Vorpal: Stop being a shit. Srsly. 22:41:01 elliott, I'm just checking that you didn't remove it 22:41:02 that's all 22:41:16 elliott, and if it had been about me you would have found that thing hilarious :P 22:41:18 It has come to my attention that you are engaging in the activity known as "being a shit"; immediate cessation of this activity is recommended to avoid progression onto shitheadedness, which follows shitness. 22:41:41 elliott, you should maybe listen to your own advise sometimes. 22:41:52 pikhq, + Ping reply from pikhq: 0.72 second(s) 22:41:59 Vorpal, *advice 22:41:59 pikhq, anyway this isn't to your irc server 22:42:04 Phantom_Hoover, whops, indeed 22:42:14 pikhq, this is from me. In Europe. 22:42:22 When there are two forms, the one with 'c' is generally the noun and 's' the verb. 22:42:27 pikhq, across irc servers. Not even direct route 22:42:35 SORRY HA HA LET ME BLAME MY ILLITERACY ON THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE 22:42:39 Phantom_Hoover, oh. Didn't know that. Interesting. 22:42:45 Phantom_Hoover, useful to know. Thanks. 22:43:02 elliott, well, loads of native English speakers get that wrong. 22:43:19 also, where did I blame it on that. 22:43:21 Also: 22:43:23 Phantom_Hoover: That's why we need to deport all the immigrants back to Africa. 22:43:26 `delquote 317 22:43:27 *poof* 22:43:31 Phantom_Hoover, why 22:43:34 I AM MAKING A STAND 22:43:39 Two against one, isn't that, like, Democracy? 22:43:59 Vorpal, because it is amusing as the later series of The Simpsons. 22:44:05 What is it, a wolf and three sheep deciding what to have for dinner? I forget the quote. 22:44:26 Phantom_Hoover: I HATE PUERILE HUMOUR AND THEREFORE DISLIKE ALL SERIES OF THE SIMPSONS EQUALLY 22:44:38 SINCE YOU EVIDENTLY HOLD THE EARLY SEASONS IN HIGH-REGARD, I CONCLUDE THAT THE LATER ONES ARE HILARIOUS TO YOU 22:44:50 elliott, uh. I haven't got around to watching the series. So I can't make any statement about it 22:45:02 elliott, ah, yeah, but now my masterstroke: 22:45:21 Since Vorpal clearly thinks I have no sense of humour, /the quote cannot be funny/. 22:45:25 elliott, also I believe it is you who are "being a shit" here. 22:45:38 That is... the best logic ever. 22:46:07 Phantom_Hoover, no, that logic fails. Because you are saying: 22:46:07 A→B 22:46:09 ¬A 22:46:15 that does not mean ¬B 22:46:21 Phantom_Hoover, 22:46:27 Phantom_Hoover, logical fallacy 22:46:50 Vorpal, ah, butbutbut: 22:47:52 Phantom_Hoover, yes? 22:47:56 Clearly if I think something *is* funny, it mustn't actually be funny, per the earlier definitions. 22:48:10 "A democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding on what to have for 22:48:10 lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the results of the 22:48:10 decision." 22:48:10 Benjamin Franklin 22:48:11 That's it. 22:48:14 So basically unless Vorpal shoots us... 22:48:34 Both stone cold logic and Ben Franklin agree. 22:48:35 Phantom_Hoover, how does that follow? 22:48:44 Phantom_Hoover, because you are asserting you have humour 22:49:03 * Phantom_Hoover gives up. 22:49:09 Phantom_Hoover, but you are asserting I don't. Which means, if true, that I would be unable to judge if something is funny at all. 22:49:30 !bfjoust kinda_boring [[]+] 22:49:31 Vorpal: You believe that PH has no sense of humour. 22:49:36 elliott, no I don't 22:49:38 Therefore, if PH thinks something is amusing, you think it is not. 22:49:50 As has previously been demonstrated with the Simpsons logic, from your POV, PH thinks the quote is funny. 22:49:59 elliott, I believe PH has a sense of humour, though different 22:50:01 Therefore, the quote is not funny in your POV, and because your POV is the POV you are reasoning from, the quote is not funny. 22:50:15 Any questions will be ignored as it has been demonstrated and explained with utmost precision, have a nice day. 22:50:19 Phantom_Hoover, for your statement to be true I would have to have some sort of anti-humour. And then you could just take absolute value of what I say and it would be hilarious 22:50:42 i think there is a lot of anti-humor flying around here right now 22:50:58 oerjan, I conclude you are right 22:51:20 Vorpal: That is still far too-high latency. 22:51:22 anyway anti-humour is just another form of humour 22:51:31 of course. i am an expert on all the four humors. 22:51:37 + Ping reply from Gregor: 0.55 second(s) 22:51:39 + Ping reply from pikhq: 1.62 second(s) 22:51:40 indeed 22:51:59 oerjan, which one is the fourth? 22:52:00 Order of magnitude too high. 22:52:25 that _would_ depend on which are the first three, i believe. 22:52:25 pikhq, about 3 times too high? 22:52:32 Vorpal: BAH 22:52:38 pikhq, what? 22:52:47 YOU AND YOUR TRUTH 22:52:53 :D 22:53:05 to be fair, this is cross Atlantic and corss-IRC 22:53:15 `addquote 317 elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:53:16 317) 317 elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:53:17 Oops. 22:53:18 I have no doubt it would be less if I used ping(8) 22:53:19 `delquote 317 22:53:24 *poof* 22:53:24 `addquote elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:53:26 Vorpal: Happy now? 22:53:27 317) elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:53:41 elliott, interesting that you added it 22:53:44 Vorpal: The latency from the links themselves should add up to *maybe* 300ms. 22:54:09 pikhq, you saw what I got to Gregor 22:54:22 pikhq, I don't know who else in here is in US 22:54:41 Score for iconmaster_kinda_boring: 4.6 22:54:41 Egobot? 22:54:45 ah 22:54:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:54:55 pikhq, no ping reply from it 22:55:32 pikhq, oh also I'm connected through ipv6 tunnel to freenode it seems 22:55:37 pikhq, that would also explain a lot 22:56:12 Wow EgoBot took a long time today 22:56:14 Vorpal: OK, sorry, I lied, I deleted it in /msg. You can readd it, I don't care. 22:57:27 *facepalm* 22:57:34 oerjan, hm? 22:58:06 and here i _thought_ elliott was trying to be diplomatic for once 22:58:15 oerjan, hah 22:58:15 I am now, I don't care enough to bother. 22:58:21 To be fair, Vorpal re-added it in /msg too. 22:58:49 `addquote elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:58:49 317) elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 22:58:49 `quote 317 22:58:57 elliott, 2 seconds after each other 22:59:00 and it was deleted 22:59:02 what 22:59:06 you "don't care"? 22:59:18 `help 22:59:19 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 22:59:21 Vorpal: What? 22:59:25 It's probably a problem with the merging. 22:59:30 That happens sometimes. 22:59:33 I've done nothing. 22:59:36 elliott, no 22:59:40 you changed addquote binary 22:59:50 WHAT IS THIS 22:59:50 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/ac438abc7950 22:59:51 GREGOR 22:59:54 elliott, very droll 22:59:54 HAVE YOU FORGED CHANGES BY ME 22:59:57 I am *disgusted* 23:00:19 `revert 5cf5145b0354 23:00:27 `quote 317 23:00:28 No output. 23:00:32 `revert 69 23:00:33 Done. 23:00:34 `quote 317 23:00:34 317) elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 23:00:38 Vorpal: dammit _i_ was thinking of changing the addquote binary 23:00:45 `revert 1e4d36f50b3b 23:00:55 The great thing about anarchy is that you can do whatever you want. Also, the only thing about anarchy. 23:01:02 `quote 317 23:01:03 317) elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P 23:01:17 `revert 76 23:01:18 Done. 23:01:26 `revert 69 23:01:27 Done. 23:01:29 `revert 76 23:01:31 Done. 23:01:46 http://zem.fi/~fis/egostats/plot_lenscore.png -- BIGGER == BETTER. 23:01:52 `cat bin/addquote 23:01:52 #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" = " elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P" ]; then \ echo $(wc -l quotes | cut -d' ' -f1 | dc -e '?1+p')") $1" \ else \ [ 23:02:02 Darn, that's the old broken version. 23:02:10 `revert 77 23:02:12 Done. 23:02:16 `cat bin/addquote 23:02:17 #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" = " elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't "again" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P" ]; then \ echo $(wc -l quotes | cut -d' ' -f1 | dc -e '?1+p')") $1" \ else \ [ 23:02:21 Hm. 23:02:29 It does not seem to want to go back to the proper version. 23:02:30 `revert 75 23:02:31 Done. 23:02:32 `cat bin/addquote 23:02:35 #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" = " elliott, hh:mm:ss statement hh:mm:ss question. hh:mm:ss+2 statement repeated [LATER:] elliott: Don't \"again\" me when I send something on the same second as you do :-P" ]; then \ echo $(($(wc -l quotes | cut -d' ' -f1)+1))") $1" \ else \ [ "$1" ] || 23:02:38 There we go. 23:03:03 i find it hard to chastise elliott when i was thinking about doing the exact same thing. 23:03:10 oerjan: :} 23:03:17 problem solved anyway 23:03:38 I wouldn't have bothered if the quote wasn't part of one of Vorpal's semi-regular "latch onto anything anyone says that could be in any way construed as anti-elliott and spam the channel with how right that is". 23:03:42 Quite an obsession. 23:04:16 !bfjoust bigger_does_not_mean_better (<)*10000(<)*10000 23:04:28 elliott, it would help if you stopped being, as you put it yourself I believe, "a shit" 23:05:45 YES, SOME PROBLEMS HAVE TWO POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS AND THEREFORE NO ONE DOES EITHER OF THEM 23:06:25 i love caps lock 23:06:27 it's warm and comforting 23:06:36 yeah i should use it some time 23:07:27 is codu.org down? 23:07:29 Gregor, ^ 23:07:51 `help 23:08:06 Vorpal: No. 23:08:13 Gregor, slow as hell though 23:08:25 Gregor, and hackego took ages to respond 23:08:26 clearly elliott inserted something that makes codu.org ignore Vorpal 23:08:28 is taking ages even 23:08:34 oerjan, I doubt it 23:08:34 Score for iconmaster_bigger_does_not_mean_better: 0.0 23:09:08 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:09:09 i didn't. 23:09:25 Gregor, codu is buggedly slow atm. As you can see 23:09:47 run sed '/elliott/d' -i quotesdefault tip 23:09:49 /rolleyes. 23:09:59 elliott, you said you liked anarchy 23:10:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:10:05 `run rm quotes; rm bin/*quote* 23:10:05 elliott, so you got it 23:10:06 Problem solved. 23:10:06 No output. 23:10:42 elliott, I was trying to point out the stupidity of your actions by demonstrating your behaviour :) 23:10:50 (parodied yes) 23:11:38 *sigh* 23:12:06 !bfjoust ill_assume_the_tape_is_ten_long (>)*10[+.] 23:12:08 I wonder if Vorpal stirs up this kind of idiotic drama just to rile me up so that he can later use it as evidence of how immature I am. 23:12:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:12:35 iconmaster: You're assuming 11, not 10 23:12:43 Whoops 23:12:43 `quote 23:12:50 !bfjoust ill_assume_the_tape_is_ten_long (>)*9[+.] 23:13:00 No output. 23:13:22 I made silly little losing BFjoust programs for no real reason. 23:13:24 elliott: Vorpal ok, you have 30 minutes to get the quote system back into its state _before_ this ridiculous quarrel started before i ban you _both_ 23:13:37 iconmaster: The graph's "size" measure would count (<)*10000(<)*10000 as size "6", actually. 23:13:39 Vorpal: Thank you for your bug report. It has been filed into /dev/null with all the others. 23:13:43 I don't want the quote system back if it's just going to cause ridiculous drama like this. 23:13:59 Also: dear Christ, can't I leave you people alone for 10 minutes? 23:14:00 Gregor, right. So you don't know what is causing it or? 23:14:16 Vorpal: E_DONTCARE 23:14:32 * elliott: Vorpal: 23:14:32 oerjan, I'm going to bed. Besides it was elliott who removed it. I'd revert the changes to the file though I made, but it seems it is no longer there. 23:14:39 oerjan, night! 23:14:54 Gregor: Guh, who put an underscore into your errno constant? That's so uncommon. 23:14:57 Waitwhat. 23:15:10 ping is in section 8 of the manual pages. 23:15:11 fizzie: It's not an errno constant, it's a bugzilla code. 23:16:17 hm just checking back for a second 23:16:45 Vorpal, OK, why, exactly, did you need that quote there? 23:16:48 oerjan, as I said, I would undo it. But I don't want to cause drama by reverting elliott's last change. That one to remove the quotes. 23:16:55 Phantom_Hoover, because I found it funny 23:17:09 Vorpal, heard of "diplomacy"? 23:17:31 Phantom_Hoover, yes, but elliott has not applied it either. 23:17:39 Vorpal, THE ONUS IS ON YOU 23:18:03 Phantom_Hoover, I don't care to look up "onus" atm, so I'll ask you to rewrite that 23:18:09 "He started it! No, he started it!" -- Vorpal learns the rules of the playground. 23:18:15 YOU ADDED THE QUOTE. IT IS STANDARD PRACTICE IN THESE SITUATIONS TO UNDO THE DISPUTED CHANGE UNTIL A RESOLUTION IS REACHED. 23:18:31 I AM NOT SURE I AM AS MUCH OF A FAN OF CAPSLOCK NOW 23:18:36 Phantom_Hoover, standard practise where 23:18:49 I map the caps lock to control. 23:19:00 I map mine to cruise control. 23:19:20 Phantom_Hoover, I map it the same way 23:19:37 Makes typing in caps painful. 23:19:49 Phantom_Hoover, not that you do that often... 23:19:53 I don't at least 23:19:56 Phantom_Hoover: it's not a matter of the single quote any more. elliott removed the _entire_ quote system. 23:20:02 oerjan, yes, I know. 23:20:06 oerjan: The entire quote system that I wrote :P 23:20:15 And I'm not going to defend that; that was immature. 23:20:16 oerjan, well that is *his* problem 23:20:23 It can be put back in one damn command. 23:20:26 Score for iconmaster_ill_assume_the_tape_is_ten_long: 4.9 23:20:26 Score for iconmaster_ill_assume_the_tape_is_ten_long: 4.9 23:20:28 I'm just not going to do it myself because Vorpal will start up again. 23:20:31 But Vorpal is the one who has prolonged this when he was clearly in the wrong. 23:20:44 I'm going to leave it to someone else 23:21:08 Phantom_Hoover, "clearly"? 23:21:36 oerjan, but you could easily do it yourself. I believe you want revision 53 23:21:51 It can be put back in one damn command. <-- sure. but i don't know that command and cannot be bothered to learn it. 23:22:01 Vorpal, you added the quote, which was a childish jibe at elliott. When asked to remove it, you repeatedly re-added it. 23:22:07 oerjan, you want `revert 53 23:22:08 Vorpal: i made a decision. 23:22:17 oerjan, that one being? 23:22:25 oerjan: I was defusing a ridiculous situation; I'll leave the rest up to Gregor as he's the only one with any vague kind of authority wrt HackEgo. 23:22:29 Have I mentioned that this is ridiculous? 23:22:45 elliott, I agree that it is ridiculous 23:23:29 Phantom_Hoover, the reverse happened in the past. And then I believe no one sided with the person wanting to remove it 23:24:06 Vorpal, *noöne has sided with you here.* 23:24:13 Phantom_Hoover, I'm not suggesting that favouritism for elliott here... that would be far beyond me... 23:24:31 that there is* 23:24:59 Phantom_Hoover, you mean here as in this specific case? Perhaps. 23:25:22 oerjan: nasty favouritist. 23:25:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:25:24 Phantom_Hoover, not a majority has said their opinion yet. So we are, as to speak in the dark. 23:25:28 (Favouritist: A WORD? Experts disagree.) 23:25:41 Vorpal, that is not the way it works. 23:25:41 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:25:58 -!- elliott has joined. 23:26:01 I rather like "Did you mean: Favouritest" on googling "Favouritist". 23:26:13 Phantom_Hoover, not with all those idlers no 23:27:23 Vorpal, _noöne except you thought that quote was funny._ 23:27:30 _Both me and elliott reverted it._ 23:27:42 Phantom_Hoover, no one who voiced their opinion* 23:28:40 * Phantom_Hoover slams his head into the wall that is Vorpal. 23:29:15 Phantom_Hoover, you could explain *why* that statement isn't true 23:29:25 vorpal is *still* bitching? sheesh. I left the channel for five minutes. 23:29:37 Vorpal, it's like explaining *why* 2+2 is 4. 23:29:41 elliott, no I'm not. I'm just replying to Phantom_Hoover's lines now 23:29:47 let me know when he stops 23:29:51 -!- elliott has left (?). 23:30:12 It's possible, but you assume that anyone you actually argue with will be able to see its obvious truth. 23:30:37 Phantom_Hoover, that is because of how + is defined. We could define it in terms of incrementing 23:30:40 and then explain it 23:31:08 Phantom_Hoover, lets assume I'm no expert in whatever legal system you seem to be alluding to above in a few places 23:31:13 Vorpal, so you're honestly saying that you think that a minority overrides a majority if not everyone has voiced an opinion? 23:31:43 Phantom_Hoover, no... I'm saying we do not have a quorum 23:32:21 Phantom_Hoover, I'm waiting for your reply 23:33:02 Vorpal, you wanted the quote there. elliott and I both wanted it gone. You *defer to majority opinion*. 23:33:13 Phantom_Hoover, no quorum. 23:33:17 Phantom_Hoover, please reply to that 23:33:23 At *least* until you have some mediation. 23:33:38 Vorpal, FFS THIS IS NOT A BLOODY PARLIAMENT 23:33:49 THIS IS _BASIC_ HUMAN INTERACTION 23:34:23 Phantom_Hoover, quorum can apply to non-parliament situations according to google define: 23:34:30 "a gathering of the minimal number of members of an organization to conduct business" 23:34:42 * Phantom_Hoover sobs 23:34:44 * Phantom_Hoover sobs 23:34:45 * Phantom_Hoover sobs 23:34:51 Phantom_Hoover, though it may or may not apply here 23:35:19 -!- elliott has joined. 23:35:20 Vorpal, please sum up briefly why, exactly, a quorum is necessary here. 23:35:23 Has he stopped blabbing yet? 23:35:24 Oop. 23:35:27 ...quorum? 23:35:30 I don't even want to know. 23:35:31 -!- elliott has left (?). 23:35:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:35:53 Phantom_Hoover, it might not be. That is open to discussion. 23:35:58 Phantom_Hoover, night → 23:36:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:36:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:36:39 My brain is under serious strain here. 23:37:12 my vote is that quote dbs exist in order to make people look bad. therefore, if it isn't funny, and it doesn't embarass someone, delete it. 23:37:25 that said, i do not know what quote we are talking about 23:37:33 Vorpal, also, do you have a QUORUM for demonstrating that you are asleep. 23:37:38 Or going to sleep. 23:37:53 I MAINTAIN THAT HE IS IN FACT AWAKE 23:38:09 ALL CONCURRING VOICES 23:38:39 -!- elliott has joined. 23:38:43 Has he stopped yet? 23:38:52 elliott, DO YOU VOTE THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO SLEEP 23:38:59 What was that about quorums? Did Vorpal form a nomic to decide whether the quote stays or not? 23:39:02 WE NEED A QUORUM 23:39:40 is it that whole hh:mm:ss quote? it's pretty not funny. 23:39:49 Yes. 23:40:01 Actual, serious (well, as serious as this idiocy can get) point: if there's not enough votes to decide, you go back to the previous state of things. 23:40:10 quintopia: It was just added as part of Vorpal's semi-regular latch-on-to-anything-not-vaguely-positive-about-elliott-and-reply-with-extreme-agreement-because-elliott-sucks. 23:40:15 So even by Vorpal's insane argument, he's *still* in the wrong. 23:40:23 Vorpal goes on regular tirades of the sort for no apparent reason other than his being childish. 23:40:30 ah 23:40:32 (At least I have the excuse of age.) 23:40:43 Now wait until that ping causes him to wake back up, run to his computer, and disagree. 23:40:47 yes. that is childish. there are better ways to make the point that you suck. 23:40:48 Phantom_Hoover: Rather obviously the correct thing to do here is to obtain a ruling from the #esoteric arbitration board as to what sort of quote approval processes are acceptable. 23:40:49 Phantom_Hoover: you are not helping. 23:41:04 elliott, you don't have the ASTONISHING MATURITY of my perspective on things. 23:41:07 -!- j_ has joined. 23:41:14 oerjan, this is beyond help. 23:41:24 j_: what did you do to k and l? 23:41:26 Phantom_Hoover: possibly. 23:41:42 that ain't ehird is it 23:41:44 I know! Let's compromise. We'll keep the first half of the quote and delete the latter half. 23:41:55 j_: Erm... 23:41:56 Also, catalysts! I've read those can lower the channel temperature. 23:41:57 Do I know you? 23:42:11 -!- j_ has changed nick to jayCampbell. 23:42:11 iconmaster, BETTER IDEA: 23:42:11 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:42:28 -!- elliott has joined. 23:42:28 Take every other letter of the quote! 23:42:31 iconmaster: why don't we delete every other character. that way there are no arguments about whether we left out the "good part" 23:42:32 This connection hates me 23:42:38 used to nomic 23:42:45 also, ninja'd by PH 23:43:06 Phanom_Hoover: Good idea. Lemme get the quote. 23:43:22 ais523's another familiar name 23:44:03 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:44:12 `quote 23:44:28 -!- elliott has joined. 23:45:47 `echo hi 23:45:52 The quote is now: 23:45:55 saeetrpae LTR] iconmaster: Beautiful. 23:46:11 iconmaster: wat 23:46:16 oh, hi jayCampbell 23:46:36 howdy! i see you're still at it 23:46:36 oerjan: Deleted every other character. As a compromise. 23:46:50 not nomicing right now, as it happens 23:47:00 but still following some, and I'll probably join one again in a bit 23:47:14 i saw you on esolang i think 23:47:47 I'm an admin there, so that would make sense 23:47:50 hi 23:47:50 No output. 23:47:55 aha 23:47:58 `quote 23:47:58 No output. 23:48:05 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 23:48:06 I'll do it 23:48:14 What's the revert param again... 23:48:22 what happened to `quote? 23:48:28 ais523: vorpal happened 23:48:29 `revert 53 23:48:31 There we go. 23:48:34 Done. 23:48:36 how would you describe a language without loops, that only runs data thru a large tree of logic gates 23:48:38 `quote 23:48:42 90) I'd imagine that it already has, and no one noticed 23:48:57 `ls 23:48:59 babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine \ quotes \ test \ test.c \ tmpdir.12609 23:49:10 `run tail -1 quotes 23:49:12 Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing. 23:49:18 OK THEN 23:49:24 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 23:50:01 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:50:02 `head bin/addquote 23:50:03 #!/bin/sh \ [ "$1" ] || exit 1 \ printf "%s\n" "$1" >>quotes \ echo $(wc -l quotes | cut -d' ' -f1)") $1" 23:50:25 elliott: do you like cat bowling? http://senorgif.memebase.com/ 23:50:33 Cat...bowling 23:50:36 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:50:54 -!- elliott has joined. 23:51:32 ais523: elliott and Vorpal happened. 23:51:33 how would you describe a language without loops, that only runs data thru a large tree of logic gates 23:51:36 Non-TC. 23:51:49 yep, it could definitely be interesting 23:51:58 but is going to be non-TC unless you enclose the whole program in a loop or something like that 23:52:04 the exact placement of blame being itself a part of the problem 23:52:07 ais523, psht, we're #esotericers! 23:52:07 (and if it's just logic gates, that implies finite state so non-TC even if you do that) 23:52:19 Non-TC is UNINTERESTING 23:52:29 Phantom_Hoover: So Coq is uninteresting? 23:52:32 elliott, YES 23:52:38 i think non-TC is the MOST INTERESTING 23:52:48 quintopia, I WAS IN FACT BEING SARCASTIC 23:52:53 because everybody and their brother is TC 23:52:58 Phantom_Hoover: I RECOGNIZE THIS FACT 23:53:03 THANK YOU 23:53:05 I WAS NOT 23:53:07 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:53:13 Hey guys, remember Madk? 23:53:19 Vaguely? 23:53:22 What did he do again? 23:53:24 http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1010&t=18829 23:53:38 elliott, made a nuisance of himself on the wiki, 23:53:52 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:54:00 non-tc is non-uninteresting if you have an infinitely large pile of virtual transistors 23:54:07 -!- elliott has joined. 23:54:09 indeed, there's no reason everything has to be TC 23:54:43 ais523, yes, I know. I may have expressed my irritation at people who think that good = TC before. 23:55:26 but what is your opinion of people who think that non-TC is good? 23:55:43 I am one of them. 23:55:57 Phantom_Hoover: I love how that thread got derailed by people talking about random esolangs 23:56:14 HERETICS 23:56:19 Madk censors "Brainfuck". 23:56:24 So does impomatic :P 23:56:28 And CamelCases it. 23:56:40 Well that's inexcusable. 23:56:47 Well yeah, but impomatic hasn't come up onto my hatedar. 23:56:52 lol @ writing a tutorial for an esolang 23:57:17 my parents get annoyed at me not censoring "brainfuck" 23:58:36 i have designed most of the basic logic gates in minecraft using water instead of redstone 23:58:37 [[Haha, that's actually quite brilliant :)]] 23:59:00 jayCampbell, are they self-resetting? 23:59:06 no 23:59:07 Phantom_Hoover: Impossible :P 23:59:20 elliott, yes, it was a leading question. 23:59:22 hence my earlier questions 23:59:40 Have you got a universal gate implemented? 23:59:42 i've seen languages in run-once environments but can't remember any 23:59:49 BrAiNfuCk