00:00:03 elliott_: btw :()^! is also TC, i found out today 00:00:07 oerjan: neat! 00:00:14 miekko: ithkuil's author at least admits that it isn't natural... 00:00:16 so like, you have fewer cases in the plural, or not the same modals in the past as in the present, etc etc 00:00:18 oerjan: now just remove ! :-P 00:00:28 elliott_: thinking about it :D 00:00:29 ithkuil's just a list of elements and a cartesian X 00:00:39 (no conclusive idea yet) 00:00:41 miekko: Doesn't stop it being _fun_. 00:00:49 but anyone can come up with that 00:01:00 miekko: Sure. does that matter? 00:01:03 ISTR oklopol was learning ithkuil a while back 00:01:08 it takes skills to make something as deliciously torturous as Russian or English or Finnish 00:01:13 probably doing alright at it too... 00:01:25 (i have a sort of transfinite ordinal idea to start showing that :()^ _isn't_ TC, but it may only simplify the problem a little bit) 00:01:25 miekko: yeah, but there's room for a cartesian product alongside the other interesting stuff. 00:01:47 well, at least the author of ithkuil doesn't believe he's in some kind of mystical communion with the inhabitants of another planet that speaks the language he has channelized 00:01:55 (there's a conlanger like that...) 00:02:16 miekko: you misspelled "madman" 00:02:48 or a future boddhisattva that bullies people into supporting his crazy, and has tried organizing conlangers into an organization under his leadership 00:03:01 with the expressed intention of "making conlanging respected by academia" 00:03:11 and "gaining insight into linguistics through conlanging" 00:03:44 oh, that guy also is an otherkin 00:03:47 a cat. 00:03:50 miekko: at least us esolangers are crazy in similarly predictable ways 00:03:55 good. 00:04:05 so what's the gravest psychosis present here? 00:04:18 um not really any as far as i know 00:04:35 oerjan is the only crazy one here :D /me runs away 00:04:38 -!- mtve has joined. 00:05:05 miekko: talk about how terrible lojban is /me gets popcorn 00:05:24 lojban was intended as an experiment, though, iirc? 00:06:00 miekko: more like: loglan was, then lojban was formed to develop it to practicality 00:06:09 the "official" name is "Lojban: a realization of Loglan" 00:06:12 ah 00:06:17 I don't think it's terrible, btw 00:06:20 but I have a feeling conlangers might 00:06:21 see, I can't keep all that kind of trivia in my mind anyway 00:06:28 I have some kind of respect for it 00:06:30 augur would only say "it's not natural" when pressed :D 00:06:31 don't know much about it 00:06:52 my main interests are typology (and syntactical typology primarily) 00:07:10 lojban jumps between function/verb (forget their name for it) parameters with integral indexes 00:07:13 which is a bit lame 00:07:27 although iirc each index has a specific meaning 00:07:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:07:53 which is kind of silly, considering that being the subject for some given verb needn't have any real similarity to being the subject of some other, etc. .. 00:08:03 mm 00:08:12 (otoh, not sure lojban has the idea of subjects) 00:08:17 (some languages sort of don't) 00:09:22 alice in wonderland in lojban is quite amusing, if you scroll down the text fast enough it all looks the same 00:09:45 oh 00:09:51 on a forum I frequent 00:09:54 I am being called a troll 00:10:06 what a rare event, on the internet! 00:10:18 either everyone is trolling or nobody is 00:10:27 for pointing out that ad hominem is generally not considered fair 00:10:32 Mathnerd314: there's a third possibility, some subset of people are trolling. 00:10:34 ^ on a forum dedicated to rationalism! 00:10:35 hth 00:10:48 miekko: heh 00:10:54 Not Less Wrong I hope :P 00:10:56 no. 00:11:01 rationalskepticism 00:11:02 otoh 00:11:14 Most "rationalism" forums are a bit (very) terrible 00:11:17 once I got a moderator advisory there, because a moderator kept misrepresenting my statements 00:11:28 and I called him out on it 00:11:29 usually because they are started by people who equate atheism and rationalism 00:11:36 obviously. 00:11:51 so they only pay lip service to the rest of rationalism 00:11:58 and this is something I am afraid may become way more common 00:12:16 as people too stupid to realize religion is wrong accidentally become atheists 00:12:23 rationalskepticism looks like an offshoot of the richard dawkins forums to me. but that's just a first impression 00:12:27 yeah it is 00:12:51 miekko: well less wrong has very little discussion of atheism but might not be... to the tastes of most denizens of rationalism forums :P 00:13:15 elliott_: law of excluded middle. Nobody can "somewhat troll" 00:13:16 I know of less wrong through another friend, who's kind of fascinated with it 00:13:30 but, uhm, posthumanism and such doesn't really appeal to me. 00:13:33 Mathnerd314: that has nothing to do with the law of excluded middle 00:13:38 miekko: *transhumanism 00:13:44 right, sorry 00:13:48 elliott_: I know. I just like saying random things :-) 00:13:50 miekko: less wrong isn't mostly about transhumanism tbh 00:13:52 Mathnerd314: :P 00:13:55 elliott_: somewhat, though 00:14:07 and it's one of the flavours of stupid that 00:14:09 elliott_: it also sounds somewhat related 00:14:11 I try and avoid 00:14:11 Most "rationalism" forums are a bit (very) terrible <-- a bit like "democratic" in the official name of countries? :D 00:14:17 because it attracts me a bit too much 00:14:27 for some reason, stupidity is a thing I love to observe 00:14:27 it 00:14:30 miekko: transhumanism isn't stupid IMO; the popular perception of transhumanism on the other hand... 00:14:49 yeah, but like, think of the economy of immortality 00:15:09 miekko: that only applies if scarcity holds 00:15:11 oerjan: heh indeed 00:15:12 (immortality, of course, not being all what transhumanism is about, but it's one of the things) 00:15:32 miekko: more precisely most Less Wrongers are /Singularitarians/ which obviously makes the economy of it irrelevant, ignoring all else 00:15:39 (because it pretty much implies post-scarcity) 00:15:41 yeah, singularitarianism is even worse. 00:15:50 I'm with Scott Aaronson on that 00:15:53 respectfully disagree :) 00:16:02 thinks that look exponential often turn out to be sigmoid 00:16:09 miekko: oh ouch, ignore Kurzweil! 00:16:18 no sane singularitarian argues based on exponential progress 00:16:28 elliott_: law of excluded middle. Nobody can "somewhat troll" <-- i am wondering if i'm detecting a self-refuting statement here :D 00:16:33 yeah but even polynomial progress is probably unlikely 00:16:51 miekko: nobody sane argues for the singularity based on inherent rate of progress either :) 00:17:04 -!- cheater00 has joined. 00:17:09 oerjan: it's not self-referential, so it can't be self-refuting 00:17:14 apart from kurzweil it's more a combination of "a singularity would be a good thing; and a singularity is possible" 00:17:48 hey, we successfully strayed wildly off topic again! 00:17:51 i love it when this happens 00:17:58 altho I think a singularity would be a good thing, I think it very likely, to the extent it's possible, is less dramatic than we'd think 00:18:12 elliott_: was there a topic? 00:18:19 Mathnerd314: well i first detected accidental self-reference 00:18:34 miekko: I don't think a suitably-morally-equipped self-improving superintelligence could possibly have a non-dramatic effect, but whatever :0 00:18:35 *:) 00:18:52 whereby moral i mean supergoal or equivalent 00:19:01 what do we mean by "superintelligence" 00:19:18 if we barely have a good understanding of what an "intelligence" is, it's hard to really say 00:19:20 miekko: stop asking questions or i'll end up linking to yudkowsky, which is just too stereotypical 00:19:34 I've read quite a bit of yudkowsky 00:19:41 and I'm not satisfied with his stuff 00:19:48 superintelligence is a well-defined term meaning an intelligence orders of magnitudes greater than a human's, where greater is defined as both more accurate and faster 00:19:50 but I'm not interested enough in the topic to start asking 00:19:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:20:00 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:20:03 I'm not the world's biggest Yudkowsky fan but he's nice enough 00:20:11 miekko: so.. "I'm right, but too lazy to explain why" 00:20:13 elliott_: so we define something by something we don't quite know wht it is 00:20:22 miekko: what is it that i don't know what it is 00:20:28 Mathnerd314: no, more like, I may be wrong, but I'm not willing to care enough to be sure about it 00:20:32 Mathnerd314: either Mathnerd314 is trolling, or everybody is trolling. 00:20:40 elliott_: we don't quite know what intelligence is 00:20:43 hmm. definitely mathnerd 00:20:47 elliott_: yeah, stop trolling already ;-) 00:20:51 miekko: no, but we don't have to to talk about superintelligences :) 00:20:57 iirc Turing said something about there being theorems that anything intelligent will be wrong at times, though 00:21:11 (well, badly rephrased= 00:21:13 ) 00:21:18 oh certainly 00:21:24 Mathnerd314: i realized your statement might not be self-refuting away, since you might be completely trolling 00:21:36 but we don't need to get at the intangible metaphysical ontological epistemological DEEP INNER MEANING of the word "intelligence" to talk about an intelligent being faster and more accurate at making deductions than a human 00:21:41 (any human, to be precise) 00:21:45 miekko: Y'know, at this point an artificial human-level intelligence seems not merely possible but will likely happen *soon*. 00:21:59 pikhq: yeah, so is fusion reactors 00:22:05 oerjan: all my statements are intended to be considered as "Mathnerd314 said on IRC that ... " 00:22:07 pikhq: I find "soon" far too optimistic. 00:22:10 both have been decades away for half a century 00:22:12 Can there be Checkout with fixed-point? Is there fixed-point GPU exist? 00:22:22 -!- augur has joined. 00:22:27 miekko: but but but kurzweil told me that 00:22:33 and unicorns, for everyone!! 00:22:38 oh, unicorns 00:22:39 elliott_: We're not too far from it being possible to do whole-brain emulation. 00:22:40 sorry, I was wrong 00:22:45 I have to reevaluate my stance. 00:22:51 unicorns, who can oppose them? 00:22:52 pikhq: that's not the same thing as writing a self-improving intelligence from scratch :) 00:23:07 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:23:10 elliott_: I only said human-level intelligence. 00:23:12 Unicrons. 00:23:13 How are unicorns relevant? 00:23:17 pikhq: oh, didn't see 00:23:27 pikhq: full-brain emulation will be RATHER slow on current hardware though afaik :) 00:23:51 anyway 00:23:55 time to reask my question :33 00:23:56 elliott_: Though an emulated brain could plausibly self-improve, what with having no biological limits to care about. :P 00:23:57 well, you make the brain you're emulating consider how to optimize your emulation 00:24:15 pikhq: say i want to learn an agglutinative language and ONLY an agglutinative language, how good a pick is japanese 00:24:19 vs. say finlandish 00:24:20 Mathnerd314: If it's slower than you, then what's the point? 00:24:22 Should you use quantum computer if you want to attempt this? 00:24:31 Mathnerd314: it'd only be as smart as we are, by definition 00:24:38 and slower, so we'd do a better job of optimising it than it would 00:24:49 never mind that hooking it up to IO ports will take longer than just being able to emulate it 00:24:55 elliott_: Depends, how much do you care about Japanese cultural exports? 00:24:56 well, it has a much higher incentive 00:25:03 oh and of course nobody is likely to raise any complaints when the emulator is switched off permanently, killing a sentient lifeform... 00:25:14 Mathnerd314: not if it doesn't know where it is. 00:25:19 and no, not really, think about it, thinking slower is a superpower 00:25:24 it can see stuff pass by much faster 00:25:27 elliott_: We're not too far from it being possible to do whole-brain emulation. <-- it occurs to me that it might need a body too in order not to go mad from sensory deprivation 00:25:30 which, when you have nothing to do, would make things less boring :D 00:25:31 elliott_: sure. I make emulations of sentient people all the time and kill them. 00:25:39 oerjan: indeed. but i doubt that'll stop anyone rushing in to it :) 00:25:43 Mathnerd314: but not sentient emulations 00:25:45 oerjan: s/body/IO/ 00:25:51 elliott_: what now 00:25:56 oerjan: give it an INTERNET BODY 00:25:56 elliott_: is there a difference? 00:26:03 augur: just saying you were sucking on chomsky's dick 00:26:05 nothing much 00:26:06 Mathnerd314: yes. 00:26:13 https://github.com/karthick18/inception/blob/master/inception.c 00:26:14 pikhq: no not just IO, we are talking about a _human_ brain here, it needs human-style senses 00:26:25 oerjan: fuck that, internet body 00:26:30 oerjan: The human brain is absurdly flexible about IO, actually. 00:26:33 oerjan: hooked right up to porn and reddit 00:26:35 and irc 00:26:37 cheater00: how many channels are you on? 00:26:39 elliott_: i dont see how that relates to lojban but ok 00:26:42 floating in a void of http 00:26:49 augur: it was earlier :) 00:26:56 how so? 00:26:58 Mathnerd314: all 00:26:59 pikhq: maybe. babies die without touch, you know. 00:27:05 Stick video and sound input *somewhere*, and the brain will actually figure it out. 00:27:10 augur: i literally said you were blowing chomsky. 00:27:16 the other senses might be less important, see helen keller 00:27:17 cheater00: impossible, since I have several channels you aren't on 00:27:19 elliott_: yes, you just did 00:27:20 but why 00:27:21 oerjan: what pikhq says is true; the brain can adapt to all kinds of input 00:27:24 augur: to insult you 00:27:28 elliott_: o ok 00:27:33 Mathnerd314: entropy 00:27:43 So, yes, getting input is important, but that's not a hard problem. 00:27:48 oerjan: for instance if "artificial vision" were ever done in practice, figuring out how to send it to the brain would basically be unimportant 00:27:53 because the brain could figure it out itself 00:27:57 cheater00: a positive integer, please, expressed in decimal notation 00:27:57 this has been observed, I strongly recall 00:28:07 Mathnerd314: by joining all channels i have sent out an infinite amount of information, but this information can only alter the universe at a finite rate 00:28:09 elliott_: "Artificial vision" is merely not a common procedure yet. 00:28:19 oerjan: touch would probably be important and the like. but it doesn't need to be mapped to the real world afaik 00:28:21 *afaict 00:28:29 elliott_: It is, however, actually done. 00:28:40 cheater00: no, because the number of channels on freenode is finite. 00:28:53 elliott_: You would need to make sure your input meets certain parameters 00:28:56 Mathnerd314: not all channels on freenode. 00:28:57 oerjan: and i suspect that if you gave a brain enough data, when it goes all "omg! i'm not getting any touch action", it'd likely map some input it's getting to touch 00:29:00 *ALL* channels. 00:29:09 in an "oh, guess my fingers are being all stupid with their signals" way 00:29:11 but the brain is good at dealing with minor details like upside-down-ness 00:29:19 this is, of course, mere speculation. 00:29:28 cheater00: how many channels *on freenode* are you on? 00:29:29 pikhq: you still haven't answered my question >:( 00:29:33 elliott_: Which? 00:29:40 Mathnerd314: break out of that infinite troll-loop 00:29:43 Mathnerd314: all. 00:29:47 pikhq: say i want to learn an agglutinative language and ONLY an agglutinative language, how good a pick is japanese 00:29:47 vs. say finlandish 00:29:49 elliott_: sure. 00:30:04 Mathnerd314: you are under my power you will not break out of the loop EVER 00:30:06 17:55 < pikhq> elliott_: Depends, how much do you care about Japanese cultural exports? 00:30:15 cheater00: impossible. 00:30:24 Mathnerd314: your soul is mine for EVERRRRRrrrr 00:30:29 pikhq: I did not receive that. 00:30:29 r . r... r. 00:30:40 pikhq: I'm asking purely from an agglutinative point of view :P 00:30:46 I want to agglutinate SO MUCH 00:30:50 cheater00: hah, how do you know I have a soul? 00:30:55 elliott_: Very good. 00:31:00 Mathnerd314: everyone has a soul. 00:31:00 pikhq: vs. finnish? 00:31:15 elliott_: I dunno about Finnish, but Japanese agglutinates a fuckton. 00:31:22 cheater00: does... EgoBot have a soul? 00:31:33 it has a ghost. 00:31:34 elliott_: hm 00:31:54 the major has linked up with it and has found it to have a soul 00:32:10 oerjan: ? 00:32:13 pikhq: so does finnish :P 00:32:17 and batou will tell you she's never wrong about those things. 00:32:24 pikhq: but japanese doesn't have an explicit word division right? 00:32:35 so technically i could speak only in one-word sentences and nobody would notice? SAY YES 00:32:53 elliott_: Technically, one-word sentences are pretty common. 00:33:05 It helps that Japanese is a pro-drop language. 00:33:06 :) 00:33:48 pikhq: speakingsentencesonewordofexclusivelyelliottdesires 00:33:54 >_> <_< 00:34:03 *sentencesspeaking 00:34:06 elliott_: i'm just acknowledging your statements without anything new to say... 00:34:13 oerjan: oh right :D 00:34:15 forgot i was like 00:34:16 talking 00:34:29 japanese is like golfing for speech 00:35:11 elliott_: "iti kotohàno hùn tàke hanasitai"? 00:35:33 pikhq: That's far too many spaces. 00:35:47 Also, I would stick that into Google Translate but you're still using your romanisation scheme :P 00:36:08 ...now we see the REAL evil of pikhq's romanisation plot 00:36:10 「一言葉の文だけ話したい。」 00:36:38 omg you can type "jap" to select japanese in the google translate box 00:36:38 Gaaah, I did it wrong, anyways. 00:36:40 and "en" for english and whatever 00:36:45 s/一/一つ/ 00:36:50 s/iti/hitotu/ 00:36:50 pikhq: but but but that's like multiple words! 00:37:23 elliott_: Agglutination doesn't go that far in any language, man. 00:37:32 pikhq: does in polysynthetic ones! 00:37:53 doesn't ainu use kanji? 00:37:57 that's polysynthetic, maybe i could pretend ;D 00:38:00 oh or is it just kana 00:38:07 -!- kwertii has joined. 00:38:08 Ainu only uses katakana. 00:38:16 Which are very poorly suited to Ainu, anyways. 00:38:28 From Classical Ainu, another polysynthetic, incorporating, and agglutinating language: 00:38:28 Usaopuspe aejajkotujmasiramsujpa. 00:38:28 usa-opuspea-e-jaj-ko-tujma-si-ram-suj-pa 00:38:28 various-rumors1-APL-REFL-far-REFL-heart-sway-ITER 00:38:28 'I keep swaying my heart afar and toward myself over various rumors.' (i.e., I wonder about various rumors.) 00:38:33 the only problem there is the single space 00:38:38 just remove that, and it's perfect 00:38:48 also remove the stupid... communication by overwrought metaphor :D 00:39:03 13:20:57 --- quit: clog (*.net *.split) 00:39:15 that's an interesting link to see in the tunes.org logs... 00:39:21 heh 00:39:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:39:53 hm it's clog_ at the moment 00:40:07 so probably that was genuine 00:42:32 10:18:31 Switching over to Ion3 ;-) 00:42:32 10:20:25 --- quit: Sgeo (Remote closed the connection) 00:42:32 10:25:49 --- join: Sgeo (n=sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net) joined #esoteric 00:42:32 10:32:50 --- quit: Sgeo (Remote closed the connection) 00:42:32 10:34:41 --- join: Sgeo (n=sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net) joined #esoteric 00:42:37 OH GOD, I FEEL HIS MALICIOUSNESS 00:42:38 ;-) 00:42:41 I'm scared. 00:43:07 (Further evidence of Sgeo_'s decline: my initial reaction was "SGEO? Using ion3? wait, this is from 2006.") 00:46:47 pikhq: watashinorisoutekinagengodehabunshouha1tsunotangodesu. 00:47:00 what. 00:47:18 elliott_: I'm not sure I'd call that a single word. 00:47:24 pikhq: Do you see any spaces? 00:47:28 pikhq: (What does that read as, BTW :P) 00:48:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: network repair). 00:48:19 In my logical language, sentences will have only 1ne word. 00:48:25 "1ne" xD 00:48:29 I take it that's not idiomatic. 00:48:35 It was *ideal* language, btw. 00:48:56 Sorry, minor mistranslation on my part. 00:49:10 Also, it's the wrong word for "word". "Tango" is more in the sense of vocabulary. 00:49:10 pikhq: watashihasubetenobunshoudedonnanitanjunmatahafukuzatsunatan'itsunotangotosoreijoudekouseisareterisoutekinagengonoanatatosubetenowatashinobijonwokyouyuushitaitoomoimasu. 00:49:37 (私はすべての文章でどんなに単純または複雑な単一の単語とそれ以上で構成されて理想的な言語のあなたとすべての私のビジョンを共有したいと思います。) 00:49:51 elliott_: Thank God for the kanji, I was about to tell you "fuck no". 00:49:57 :D 00:50:18 "You want to do WHAT with my mother's goat? ...wait, broke the words in the wrong place." 00:50:42 pikhq: My method, by the way, is using Google Translate, then removing all commas from the output :P 00:51:15 elliott_: Google Translate seems to have fucked something up. 00:51:32 About 1/4th of the way through the grammar falls apart. 00:52:25 pikhq: Koreharomajimokantannabunshounidoredakehayakuseichousurukahijouniodorokida! 00:52:29 (これはローマ字も簡単な文章にどれだけ早く成長するか非常に驚きだ) 00:52:39 NOW SAY IT TEN TIMES FAST 00:53:09 elliott_: That is, in fact, an entirely normal sentence. 00:53:16 pikhq: But, but, I removed a comma. 00:53:25 pikhq: (Is it still normal when I remove all the spaces from the romaji? :P) 00:53:34 elliott_: Not from the romaji. 00:53:54 Japanese speakers will add spaces if they're not using kanji, because it's a motherfucking *pain* to read. 00:54:14 Thisismuchmucheasiertoreadthanthatbullshit. 00:55:55 pikhq: What does ^x mean in ascii romaji? 00:55:57 and 'x? 00:56:06 is ^ just ^ on top of the next letter? 00:56:18 or previous? 00:56:44 elliott_: Depends, whose romaji scheme? 00:56:54 Romaji Translator at Romaji.org is a free Japanese to Romaji transliteration tool. You can translate japanese text (Kanji,Hiragana,Katakana) into Romaji or Hiragana. 00:56:55 THAT ONE 00:56:57 :D 00:57:06 "to^suto" is the relevant word 00:57:21 It goes on the previous. 00:57:26 Same for '? 00:57:44 And ' is almost certainly being used to disambiguate between moraic "n" and initial-consonant "n". 00:57:51 Ah. 00:57:53 So irrelevant, then! 00:57:55 Also, is "ou" always õ or not? 00:58:07 "ou" is *usually* a long o. 00:59:00 pikhq: kyōfunotôsutonikeńeniki 01:00:05 xD 01:01:02 I think I just confused pikhq to death. 01:02:07 nah, pikhq is just in need of some space now 01:12:14 oerjan: is :()^D tc, where D is dip? >:D 01:12:17 ooh better 01:12:17 :()D 01:12:27 :~()D maybe 01:12:32 er ~:()D 01:12:33 that is 01:13:16 hm how do you write ^ in terms of D 01:13:37 why do you want ~ 01:13:56 just trying to be helpful 01:14:01 lessee 01:14:03 oerjan: simple, have only even stack elements matter 01:14:08 (real)(junk)(real)(junk) 01:14:16 sheesh 01:14:21 :D 01:14:24 i am guessing it can be done directly 01:14:30 possibly 01:14:40 oerjan: i'm not guaranteeing that it works like normal dip though 01:14:44 it could put the stack element somewhere else entirely! 01:14:55 (unless this is obviously impossible to do ^ directly with which i suspect) 01:14:57 well of course that doesn't matter 01:14:58 (in which case HAVE YER GUARANTEE) 01:15:04 oerjan: oh right, it doesn't... 01:15:15 i was thinking you could examine the result or something 01:16:16 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 01:16:24 hm it's easy to get ^() , that's just (())DD 01:16:42 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:16:42 oh and then : 01:16:42 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to pumpkin. 01:17:18 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:17:18 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:17:19 yeah ^ is (())DD: if the stack has at least one element after the ^ 01:17:40 and i don't think this subset has any way of deleting a lone stack element 01:18:13 er damn 01:18:20 somehow i wrote : for * 01:18:41 ok it's actually difficult to delete anything simple then 01:18:47 or wait 01:18:52 duh 01:19:04 ^ = (())DDD 01:19:25 again assuming at least one element on the stack after the ^ 01:20:29 elliott_: ' is not a bloody diactric in Japanese. 01:20:51 you are capable of doing (x)~ as ((x))D 01:20:55 pikhq: I thought it was in your super-retarded-romanisation-scheme 01:21:03 elliott_: Yes, but not in any other ones. 01:21:11 pikhq: I decided to be retarded. 01:21:12 elliott_: i think it looks likely that :()D is TC 01:21:29 even without ~, obviously with 01:21:36 oerjan: ok. what about ~()D 01:21:37 or *()D 01:21:40 elliott_: In every other romanisation scheme, it exists to distinguish, say, んや from にゃ (n'ya from nya). 01:21:45 -!- rodgort has joined. 01:21:48 don't knock this bullshit, it could be the key to understanding :()^ ! 01:21:53 elliott_: : is still indispensable 01:22:01 oerjan: hmm 01:22:14 oerjan: ok what about this operation: "dip, then duplicate second-on-stack to top-of-stack" 01:22:15 that is 01:22:17 after dipping 01:22:18 no way to increase total size otherwise 01:22:19 a b c 01:22:21 -> 01:22:23 a b c b 01:22:35 It's a fairly important distinction, really. 01:22:40 so for instance ((x))V would push (x) on the top of stack 01:22:43 and also on the third on stack 01:24:23 -!- aloril has joined. 01:25:10 (y)((x)V -> (x)(y)(x) ? 01:25:17 *(y)((x))V -> (x)(y)(x) ? 01:25:23 oerjan: yep 01:25:56 if we had !, then (x)(y)(z)(!)V -> (x)(z)(x) 01:26:06 oerjan: basically it's 01:26:10 D(:)D~ 01:26:10 I think 01:26:13 yeah 01:26:26 so the question is ~()V or *()V 01:26:32 or even !()V :P 01:28:09 well D = V! 01:29:51 ^ = (())DDD still, and : = ()()D(^)D 01:30:13 so !()V is enough at least 01:30:21 well D = V! 01:30:27 only if you have enough stack left 01:30:30 but ok, *()V then 01:30:36 that seems like you'll need junk handling again 01:30:36 um no always 01:30:41 oh hm 01:30:47 oerjan: V requires more elements than D 01:30:51 but you can easily just prefix your program with a shitload of ()s 01:30:55 and in the loops 01:30:56 so it hardly matters 01:30:57 i...think 01:31:01 well we need enough stack for ^ anyway 01:31:05 but then maybe you can't do it _forever_... 01:31:09 as in 01:31:13 you can't push ()s down far enough in a loop 01:31:46 um that's not a problem, the parts that need dummy stack elements don't actually disturb them 01:32:00 hm right... 01:32:07 it's just that 01:32:13 ((x))V 01:32:15 is invalid for instance 01:32:41 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:34:26 just put the maximum () at the start for each emulation, D, ^ and : 01:34:44 oerjan: so *()V and ~()V :D 01:34:48 it will never be disturbed unless the converted program itself runs out of stack 01:34:56 my secret plan is that one of these will turn out to be semantically equivalent to :()^ somehow 01:34:58 forget i said that 01:35:11 i find that unlikely 01:35:13 ok ~()V first 01:36:46 hm ouch 01:37:02 the HARD-HITTING FORCE OF REALITY? 01:37:07 after V, whatever is on the top will also be at third 01:37:11 YEP 01:37:13 :D 01:37:19 oh wait 01:38:43 it may be necessary to let the programs produce easily removable junk 01:40:30 -!- cal153 has joined. 01:41:13 so let's say there's a () kept on top of stack near constantly, and converted subprograms expect and preserve it 01:42:02 hm wait they don't expect it, but they put it there 01:43:55 argh 01:44:20 to neuter the duplication when needed, use _three_ () on top of stack 01:46:43 i really cannot be bothered with this 01:49:24 oerjan: YOU LOSE :D 01:49:33 is *()V likely to be any easier? :P 01:49:48 no, i left that for last because i have no f idea for it 01:49:49 Haha... Pic having some rodent with a stinger missile. 01:50:22 (just as i still have no idea for :()^*) 01:53:24 well no more than a vague feeling that i hope means my intuition is working on it 02:02:26 -!- augur has joined. 02:02:52 oerjan: well obviously in that scheme, a is (()~*())* 02:11:56 ... 02:12:17 oerjan: :D 02:12:19 you can ban me for that 02:12:27 YES 02:12:41 -> 02:13:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 02:14:59 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 02:16:26 19:44 < Pseudonym> I've almost finished reproducing the 6502 (from the transistor-level simulation) in logisim. 02:16:46 I am in awe. 02:17:10 wasn't that done in js lately 02:18:23 elliott_: Well, from the logic-gate level simulation you could put it into Minecraft. 02:18:46 :D 02:18:51 VERY SLOWLY 02:18:56 there might be chunk limits on that though. 02:19:23 I suspect you could actually get it into a few chunks... 02:19:30 The CPU would tower from bedrock to sky, though. 02:20:07 I think the 6502 is rather more complex than could fit in a few chunks. 02:20:16 Consider that redstone is *rather* simplistic. 02:20:19 And chunks are only 16x16. 02:23:17 pikhq is secretly tarski's reincarnation 02:23:18 true fact 02:32:29 Hmm. Could you actually get a 6502 in 144x144x128? 02:33:34 pikhq: That's 2,654,208 blocks, but of course you need *space* to have redstone, a wire takes up a whole block. 02:33:46 You also need repeaters (newly-introduced), and who knows how many chunks they will go across? 02:34:05 Certainly the game only loads the nearest 81 chunks. 02:34:09 i.e. 9x9. 02:34:12 If you stood in the centre... well... 02:34:31 pikhq: "I doubt it". 02:34:42 pikhq: Have you SEEN the size of the ALU? I haven't seen the CPU but it must be much bigger. 02:35:13 Perhaps it is POSSIBLE to crunch the 6502 into that space, although I doubt it. But I bet you'd need to essentially brute-force every possible configuration to crunch it that far down. 02:35:21 CPUs are complex shit, yo. 02:35:28 Oh, and that's ignoring memory. Which of course you need. 02:35:29 http://www.weihenstephan.org/~michaste/pagetable/6502/6502-die.jpg There's the entire thing. 02:35:45 pikhq: Yes. You will notice how far zoomed-out that is. 02:35:49 elliott_, maliciousness? 02:35:54 pikhq: Also, remember that redstone is significantly less compact than, you know, real electronics. 02:35:56 How is me using Ion3 malicious? 02:36:07 elliott_: So, we need to mod Minecraft. :P 02:36:09 Gates take up quite a few blocks. 02:36:20 pikhq: Mod it with a 6502 block. 02:39:11 * pikhq wishes that the pirateness allowed for updating Minecraft 02:39:27 * pikhq , alternately, wishes for $ 02:40:56 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 02:43:36 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:44:25 I think I like Clojure except for the Java stuff 02:48:02 pikhq: just redownload from s3 02:48:08 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:48:08 pikhq: your non-login should still work 02:48:19 probably :P 02:48:45 elliott_: That's just the launcher. 02:48:56 pikhq: from _s3_ 02:49:03 because mojang suck at security remember? 02:49:07 i.e. how you got it in the first place? 02:49:11 Oh, right. 02:49:18 just minecraft.jar changes i think. 02:49:27 i don't THINK it modifies minecraft.jar to figure out whether you've paid 02:49:32 so just changing that in-place should work 02:50:07 pikhq: (keep a backup of ~/.minecraft just in case it doesn't...) 02:50:35 -!- yiyus has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:51:14 Yar, me mateys. 02:51:31 pikhq: it's not piracy. it's direct from mojang itself! 02:51:46 java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: net.minecraft.client.MinecraftApplet 02:51:54 That's... Not good. 02:52:18 pikhq: Oh, are you still on the old launcher? 02:52:22 Probably it only works with the new one. 02:52:33 http://www.minecraft.net/download/minecraft.jar?v=1298517805112 02:52:35 Again, copy with care. 02:53:18 ... Wait, I downloaded the wrong jar off of S3. 02:53:37 *There* we go. 03:12:02 Hmm. Redstone delay line memory... 03:19:45 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:30:47 ... 03:30:53 It is possible to get stone before wood. 03:31:02 You just need to start by punching creepers. 03:31:39 -!- TLUL has changed nick to Cook_Me_Flax. 03:32:40 -!- Cook_Me_Flax has changed nick to TLUL. 03:33:40 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 03:33:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:45:54 Hello. Are we boring around here at the current time? 03:48:54 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:49:19 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:53:29 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:58:11 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:07:00 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:24:17 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:30:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:38:53 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:47:35 >_> 04:47:37 <_< 04:48:03 mannsì まんじ マンジ 卍 04:48:28 Hah 04:48:41 elliott and the clojure guys agree on something! 04:48:47 amalloy> in lieu of competing theories, i'm going to propose that it's because you're nuts 04:48:55 :) 04:49:06 hello zzo38 . have a good old-fashioned boring night? 04:49:10 To use Checkout with graphics you would need to add some commands, for vector processing and so on? 04:49:31 what is checkout 04:49:39 quintopia: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout 04:51:37 In the "see also" section there is a link to a list of commands 05:04:56 -!- augur has joined. 05:05:10 that is a long spec 05:05:16 i'll finish reading late 05:05:18 r 05:07:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:08:03 That is OK. However, what things do you know about GPU? 05:13:47 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:14:48 o.O' 05:15:06 Modern x86 processors have instructions that take 0 clock ticks. 05:15:09 Do all level 1 units share the instruction pointer? And is abstain/1 allowed with an else part or not? 05:15:16 pikhq: Which instructions? 05:15:44 zzo38: The set of x87 stack swapping instructions. 05:20:14 My linear algebra professor seems to love proofs. 05:20:35 WHY, DOESN'T EVERYONE 05:20:48 So far, I have been assigned every single problem in the textbook that involves proving something. 05:21:29 Which is pretty fucking tedious in linear algebra. Like everything else. 05:22:12 why am i porting ffmpeg to the DSi 05:23:04 asiekierka: I don't know why. 05:23:10 :P 05:23:16 well i know why and that's the sad part 05:23:20 i want to run youtube on my DS 05:23:24 How many programs have you written on the DSi? 05:23:28 a few 05:23:30 WireWorld DS is one 05:23:34 subleqDS is the worse one 05:23:36 also many ports 05:23:43 Jim, a TCL interpreter 05:23:47 MegaHal (done horribly but oh well) 05:24:06 Aaaah, Jim. 05:24:12 Such a nice interpreter. 05:33:52 i downloaded the ffmpeg port for iOS to my ipod, but i can't use it because mobileterminal won't start :/ 05:34:41 A MegaHAL is 9000000000 05:34:50 *9000000000 05:38:22 pikhq if you want the port ask me 05:38:24 but not now, i gtg 05:38:25 bye! 05:43:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:06:42 -!- ferix2x has quit. 06:14:22 There are still some questions I have about Checkout 06:17:47 well you'll have to wait for ais523 for that 06:18:38 OK 06:29:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 06:42:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:50:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:50:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:01:08 coppro: 9000000000? that's over... 07:32:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:32:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:32:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 07:32:41 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:34:03 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:36:12 -!- yiyus has joined. 08:44:55 -!- Mannerisky has left (?). 09:05:12 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:05:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:53:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:12:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:26:13 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:26:20 -!- SimonRC has joined. 11:27:49 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:29:50 -!- cheater00 has joined. 12:17:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:29:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:55:57 -!- Tritonio has joined. 13:10:15 -!- asiekierka has joined. 13:10:43 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:29:02 -!- miekko has changed nick to Zwaarddijk. 13:29:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:33:18 -!- sftp has joined. 14:01:31 -!- Mannerisky has joined. 14:20:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:21:22 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:27:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:42:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:02:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:06:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:06:57 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:10:18 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:25:23 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:26:16 -!- variable has joined. 15:27:41 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 15:33:23 -!- aloril has joined. 15:34:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:36:05 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:36:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:38:46 -!- cheater00 has joined. 16:00:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:02:50 ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(e)(!!:^^^^)))(((0)S)(e))(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(e)(!!:^!^))):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^ 16:02:50 11011 16:03:06 yay 16:04:38 ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(!:^^^^)))(((0)S)())(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(!:^!^))):^^(^)(::**)::**^^!^ 16:04:39 11011 16:05:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:05:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:05:24 ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(e)(!!:^^^^)))(((0)S)(e))(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(e)(!!:^!^))):^^(^)(::::****)::**^^!^ 16:05:24 1011111 16:06:23 ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(!:^^^^)))(((0)S)())(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(!:^!^))):^^(^)(::::****)::**^^!^ 16:06:24 1011111 16:06:29 -!- r7 has joined. 16:07:04 -!- r7 has left (?). 16:07:47 ais523: ^ working two-counter machine with :()^!S 16:07:54 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:08:08 wow, this is getting ridiculous 16:08:15 I take it the ! is absolutely required in that? 16:08:40 oh yes, it's the main mechanism for selecting cases in the tables 16:09:11 btw it prints a numeral in reversed binary 16:09:41 it's obvious that both : and ^ are necessary, without : there's an entropy rule that lets you prove all programs halt, without ^ you can only ever run commands in the original program and so all programs must halt too 16:10:10 yes i wrote arguments for :()^ necessary in the new minimization section 16:10:14 yep 16:10:28 () is pretty obvious, given that none of the other commands can legally be run unless () has been run first 16:10:35 yeah 16:11:19 btw entropy = size of stack in characters + size of remaining program in characters + 3*number of a's 16:11:43 er, 2*times 16:11:52 one time is included in the others 16:11:58 *2*number 16:12:08 you can just count a pair of parens as 1 rather than 2, then a doesn't need special-casing 16:12:45 you still need special casing to make it strictly reducing at each step 16:13:59 of course it's obvious you cannot run only a's indefinitely, so you will reduce eventually 16:17:18 -!- yorick has joined. 16:22:10 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:23:01 -!- yorick has joined. 16:33:14 APNIC down 0.01: IPv4: 128k to China, 2k to Australia. IPv6: No allocations. 16:34:00 how long will it last at current burn rate? 16:41:43 Current 30-day burn rate is: 541 517 addresses per day. At that rate, it will last about 4 months. 16:42:56 ouch 16:43:41 ais523: I have some questions about Checkout, can you answer me? 16:43:47 perhaps 16:43:59 the language isn't quite finalised yet 16:44:06 It will also be interesting what happens after it depletes. How much of the demand will shift to other regions? What will happen to the IPv6 demand? 16:44:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:45:56 One question is, would some commands need to be added for graphics processing? 16:46:33 graphics programming works in just the same way, just the driver works out the correct sequence of commands 16:46:45 Checkout's very low level, it's like asking if you should add commands to asm for web development 16:47:20 O, it is just the driver that adds the graphics commands. If so, then it is OK, no commands should be added for that. 16:49:50 I also have idea for the binary representation of Checkout programs. 16:50:26 And what kind of profiles and stuff does a GPU commonly have? 16:50:59 normally, I'd assume two profiles, one for the GPU, one for the CPU that gives it its instructions 16:51:48 typically you'd get 32 or so level 1 subunits of a level 2 unit, and the number of level 2 subunits of a level 3 unit is kind-of complicated because in theory it can go up to 65536 or so on modern GPUs, but is often more efficient with a smaller number like 16 16:52:02 umm, sorry, that's 3 of 4 16:52:18 2 of 3 goes up to 16 or so, and again is sometimes more efficient with a smaller number 16:56:42 Do all level 1 units share the same instruction pointer? 16:57:10 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:57:20 all units share the same instruction pointer, full stop 16:57:43 but things like if and while can sort-of magically disappear the instruction pointer from some units and place it back later 16:57:47 all in zero time 16:58:02 this sort of thing is why, for instance, you can't put nop/3 inside while/2, because it wouldn't make logical sense 16:59:58 ais523, I assume you're talking to cheater? 17:00:08 no, to zzo38 17:00:19 cheater hasn't said anything since I joined the channel 17:00:27 If you compile a Checkout program to run on GPU, can you do video rendering? (Of course the program would have to fit the specific GPU profiles and stuff, I guess) 17:00:34 BTW: Long-term growth rate of APNIC allocations seems to be about 19% per year. 17:00:46 zzo38: I think it depends on the details of the driver 17:01:11 -!- iamcal has joined. 17:01:41 in fact, with some GPU architectures, you could just write to the right part of level 5 memory and the rendering would appear onscreen 17:01:48 but that's massively system-specific 17:03:29 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:07:22 At 10x expansion for IPv6 deployment + 19% per year, APNIC would allocate in about 6 years. 17:07:48 hopefully they'll stop wasting IPv6 the way they wasted IPv4 at some point 17:08:11 even if it 90% runs out before they wake up, there'll still be huge numbers of addresses left 17:11:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:12:44 Reaching 90% depletion would mean expanding address usage from current by about 3.5 orders of magnitude. 17:12:44 ais523: However, assume now that I have no graphics card and just the GPU and am connecting everything myself. Would you know which GPU devices can be used and how to output to TV screen? 17:13:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit). 17:13:07 I do suppose I can use macros to make the system-specific stuff for the output 17:13:17 zzo38: GPUs which don't also contain a video card won't output to TV screens at all 17:13:32 the vast majority of GPUs on existence are on video cards (= graphics cards) for that reason 17:14:38 Humans are very bad at comprehending huge numbers. And IPv6 involves huge numbers. 17:16:58 I mean, how would I do if I put the GPU and video output chip, and also a RAM to communicate with other devices (such as CPU) on a board by myself 17:17:55 * oerjan would hazard guess that is what a graphics card _is_ 17:17:59 *a guess 17:18:02 you might want to look up pages about motherboard design; it's a pretty complicated subject, and one that I don't fully understand 17:18:19 and designing just a graphics card is similar but on a smaller scale 17:18:37 (it likely won't matter in practice, because the vast majority of GPUs you can buy are on graphics cards already) 17:20:42 How many IPv4 /16 or bigger allocations there are? Loads (something like 14 000 individual allocations, to lesser set of holders). Just how many IPv6 /19s there will be allocated? Currently there are 5. 17:22:05 The point is. IPv4 /16 isn't that large. But IPv6 /19 is frickin huge. 17:23:48 At even 75% utilization, that would mean 384M /48s. 17:23:50 I mean I want to buy one that is not on a graphics card already. I want to learn how to connect it myself 17:24:42 I want to learn how to connect it *to* myself 17:25:40 olsner: You just unplug the optic nerve from your eye, and go from there. 17:25:59 the fiber-optic nerve, mmmm 17:29:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:29:47 Remember even if you equate /48s and individual IPv4 addresses (!) there are still 13 bits left over... And 13 bits is 8192 times. 17:31:27 And besides, mobile handsets will probably only eat one /64 per handset. 17:34:10 Even at 16 billion devices (easy to calculate and leaves some margin), that's a /30 total. 17:34:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:34:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:35:11 Oh, and there are many more RIR-allocated /48s than there are IPv4 addresses total. 17:35:50 That count is quite rapidly approaching 10 billion. 17:36:32 -!- TLUL has joined. 17:37:34 ... Currently at 9 623 680 978 17:53:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Turn on...the Doom Light!). 18:13:47 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:24:54 -!- pumpkin has joined. 18:26:42 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:29:04 ^ul (((((0)S!:^^^!^)(!:^!^))(!((1)S!:^^^!^)(!::^!!^))(!!(!:^^^^)))(((0)S)())(!((1)S)(!:^!!^))(!!(!:^!^))):^^(^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)^!^ 18:29:04 11011 18:30:09 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:37:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:53:04 -!- elliott has joined. 18:54:27 19:30:47 ... 18:54:27 19:30:53 It is possible to get stone before wood. 18:54:27 19:31:02 You just need to start by punching creepers. 18:54:33 pikhq: you need wood to craft that into tnt. 18:54:36 but you can get diamond before wood. 18:54:42 just taunt creepers into exploding. 18:54:46 until you get lucky 18:54:50 oerjan: argh, no ais 18:55:05 20:48:28 Hah 18:55:05 20:48:41 elliott and the clojure guys agree on something! 18:55:05 20:48:47 amalloy> in lieu of competing theories, i'm going to propose that it's because you're nuts 18:55:07 you are, but what? 18:55:32 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:55:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:09:39 -!- augur has joined. 19:10:08 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:11:35 elliott: new underload section, about minsky machine 19:11:45 oerjan: cool! i'm working on an underload test suite myself, a la mycology 19:11:52 heh 19:11:53 oerjan: mostly because everyone gets concatenation the wrong way around, including me :D 19:12:01 right :D 19:12:11 ^ul ((a)S)((b)S)((c)S)(^)(!^)*^ 19:12:11 ca 19:12:19 ^ul ((a)S)((b)S)((c)S)(!^)(^)*^ 19:12:19 ba 19:14:04 invalid instruction (GOOD) 19:14:04 a 19:14:05 *no a 19:14:07 huh? 19:15:08 ^ul (( prop)*S)((DANGER))((OHNO)S)(!^)(^)*^ 19:15:08 ...bad insn! 19:15:16 oerjan: wat 19:15:24 oh 19:15:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:15:44 ^ul (( prop)*S)((DANGER))((OHNO)S)(!^)(~^)*^ 19:15:44 DANGER prop 19:15:47 ^ul (( prop)*S)((DANGER))((OHNO)S)(!^)(~^)~*^ 19:15:48 OHNO 19:16:05 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:16:15 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:16:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 19:18:54 oerjan: btw challenge for you 19:19:04 argh 19:19:40 you have been challenged by elliott! 19:20:09 oerjan: let p === q mean "p is semantically equivalent to q when run", i.e. (()!) === (). construct p such that (p)(p)* === (), (p)(p)^ === (p), and ()(p)^ === () 19:22:02 A new challenger appears! 19:22:58 fizzie: verily 19:23:05 hmm, how to test :... 19:23:19 is there a simple way to test two smith numerals for equality? :p 19:24:11 rephrasing (pp) === (), (p)p === (p), ()p === () 19:24:23 oerjan: indeed 19:24:25 elliott: there's one in the look-and-say program 19:24:27 elliott: since they are evidently complicated enough to have their own name, probably not :P 19:24:35 olsner: it's just what i'm calling church numerals in underload >:D 19:24:39 since they're not actually church numerals 19:25:06 You should call them "the satanic numerals" or something, to emphasize that last point. 19:25:15 :D 19:25:18 i better look up my las scratch file 19:25:33 oerjan: for equality? or for the PEE CHALLENGE wait no 19:25:42 necronomical numerals? 19:25:48 oerjan: don't bother if the former 19:26:00 for equality 19:26:03 i can't use anything but ()~*^! 19:26:12 hmm, i don't explicitly test !, I should do that 19:26:28 ok it uses a* of course 19:26:50 oerjan: can't use it then :D, unless I test a before :... 19:30:20 oerjan: btw ()p === () is a bit misleading 19:30:27 as in, it can end up with (()!) on the stack instead of () 19:30:33 because they are semantically equivalent 19:30:46 similarly, (p)p doesn't have to push (p) directly, just equivalent 19:30:49 and (pp) for () 19:30:56 well i figured that 19:31:15 since (pp) cannot possibly be equal to () 19:31:26 er except for p = 19:31:38 indeed :P 19:31:59 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:32:09 incidentally that _is_ a solution to your challenge >:D 19:32:28 oerjan: uh hm 19:32:41 oerjan: and p =/= null string 19:32:50 FFFF 19:32:54 i would tell you why, but it'd spoil my hidden intention >:D 19:33:04 (given p, (p) = smith numeral -1) 19:33:06 I suspect you are up to: no good. 19:33:10 WHOOPS SPOILED IT 19:33:17 fizzie: No good is what I am up to! 19:33:27 it shouldn't be equivalent to the null string either, i take 19:33:33 oerjan: indeed :D 19:33:36 because then (p) would just be 1 19:34:08 oerjan: if it helps, (!())p can be whatever or even fail to terminate ;D 19:34:13 (0^-1 = 1/0) 19:34:30 actually let's ignore ()p 19:34:38 since expecting ^-1 is probably overly-optimistic or something 19:34:45 (pp) === (), (p)p === (p) 19:38:37 hmm now how to test a... 19:39:00 the former is the same as pp === , no? 19:40:52 oerjan: yes. oh, note that (pp)^ can fail if the rest of the stack is empty 19:41:04 let's say (pp) === (:!) 19:41:36 yeah that's pretty essential 19:42:31 hm do we actually have anything fulfilling pp === without p === 19:42:38 oerjan: === :! 19:42:43 or are you just wondering anyway? 19:43:03 um i was assuming non-empty stack here 19:43:09 oerjan: well right 19:43:11 i'm not sure 19:43:20 oerjan: maybe if p goes like 19:43:29 "is the TOS my special marker? if so, pop it, otherwise, push it" 19:43:30 oh of course 19:43:32 ~ 19:43:40 that requires _two_ elements on stack 19:43:42 which isn't acceptable 19:43:46 oerjan: ok let's refine it even further: 19:43:52 sheesh 19:43:57 (smith numeral)pp === (smith numeral) 19:44:00 hm... 19:44:06 (~)* 19:44:12 ooh 19:44:19 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 19:44:32 ^ul ((~)*))(~)*S 19:44:32 ...bad insn! 19:44:38 ^ul ((~)*)(~)*S 19:44:39 (~)*~ 19:44:50 ok so is that identical to (p) 19:44:54 no, it's not 19:45:04 (that's the (p)p === (p) rule) 19:45:14 oerjan: does your equality tester require :? 19:45:16 if not, i can use it, it seems 19:45:29 erm 19:46:27 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 19:46:44 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 19:47:15 yes it does 19:47:57 it doesn't use !, incidentally 19:48:08 argh :D 19:48:09 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 19:48:17 just wondering how to test : sanely... 19:48:36 that's entirely accidental 19:48:46 (in a way that lets me print (BAD: ...) if, for instance, : just does nothing) 19:49:06 well you probably need ! to actually use this function 19:49:07 aha wait... 19:49:10 I have an idea 19:49:14 maybe 19:49:31 (BAD)(GOOD):S 19:49:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:49:41 er wait 19:49:46 (BAD)(GOOD):!S 19:50:20 ah, thanks 19:50:26 oerjan: rather, 19:50:29 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:50:37 ((BAD: ...)S(:^):^)((GOOD: ...)S):!^ 19:50:38 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:51:21 are you sure infinite looping is a good idea, what if it doesn't flush output 19:51:58 oerjan: it ends with a newline 19:52:05 and it is a good idea, because the rest of the tests will go haywire if I don't 19:52:08 ...i guess. 19:52:19 hmm 19:52:19 well 19:52:23 I could execute an invalid instruction 19:52:28 that'll probably go better 19:52:34 except it's somewhat unlikely (:^):^ will work if : doesn't 19:52:41 well that's true :D 19:54:39 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:54:45 UNDEF: If the following pair of brackets has double-quotes before 19:54:45 both brackets, your implementation doesn't support the (never-implemented) 19:54:45 quoting rules: "["] 19:55:41 http://sprunge.us/DDJB 19:55:41 tada 19:55:45 burden.ul test suite 19:55:52 oops 19:55:53 has a todo left in there 19:56:07 http://sprunge.us/fLWW 19:56:07 there 19:56:19 -!- tswett has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:56:35 -!- tswett has joined. 19:56:47 that tswett, always cycling to brag with his hostname 19:58:03 well derlo passes :D 19:58:05 as does relief 19:58:17 who wants to feed it to fungot :D 19:59:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:00:18 I do have that standalone copy of the interp somewhere. 20:01:14 fizzie: that would be cool :P 20:01:56 hey look, oerjan is on reddit: "I got drunk one night, came back to my hotel and booked flights to the North pole.....the next day I was in Svalbard.....AmA" 20:02:28 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:03:32 fizzie: WE ARE EAGERLY AWAITING YOUR STANDARDS CHECKING 20:03:34 also fungot is gone 20:03:59 It probably dropped doing my recent, well, dropping. 20:04:20 Also I need to remove newlines from your thing, my thing uses \n as end-of-program. :p 20:04:50 fizzie: The output of that will be uh... interesting... 20:05:02 TEMPTED TO DISQUALIFY YOU FOR THAT 20:05:04 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:05:24 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:07:15 http://p.zem.fi/burden -- the "bad insn" at the end could be just something I managed to accidentally add when removing newlines. 20:07:46 fizzie: "XNLX"? 20:07:50 Oh, right. 20:07:56 fizzie: Probably you newline-terminated the file. 20:07:57 Like a silly. 20:08:12 Probably. 20:08:16 fizzie: Anyway I refuse to accept your test results unless that cfunge was compiled with -DEXACT_BOUNDS. 20:08:25 Yes, it ends with SXNLX. :p 20:08:32 Otherwise clearly your implementation of Funge-98 is non-conforming and the results are therefore not reliable. 20:08:48 I don't know how it was compiled; I didn't even know I had cfunge in path. 20:09:06 cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened p:64 c:32] 20:09:14 HMM. 20:09:29 fizzie: I would trust your results if they came from CCBI or Shiro, two RESPECTABLE implementations. 20:09:46 One of which isn't available anywhere 20:10:47 Deewiant: EXCUSE ME, I would of COURSE be DELIGHTED to provide fizzie with the REQUISITE IMPLEMENTATION MATERIALS to complete his testing procedure. 20:10:51 But CCBI is ALSO ACCEPTABLE OF COURSE. 20:11:14 -!- Gregor has joined. 20:11:39 http://p.zem.fi/burden-ccbi 20:11:40 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest99439. 20:11:58 Oh, well, you know those D compilers, they're quite buggy and whatnot. 20:11:59 I thought you didn't trust CCBI binaries. 20:12:03 Okay, okay, fine, you pass. 20:12:05 OH. 20:12:10 Deewiant raises an IMPORTANT POINT. 20:12:20 Deewiant: Well, you know, for a good cause. 20:12:32 Deewiant: That was your opportunity to steal all his IRC logs, dude. 20:12:33 If I were smart, I wouldn't cycle to show off my hostname. 20:12:36 You BLEW it. 20:12:50 ...or _did_ you 20:12:57 O_o 20:13:03 I kidnapped a Stanford student to get it, and if someone asked about my hostname, I would have to say so, and then I would get convicted of kidnapping. 20:13:03 "Why is my network so slow all of a sudden?" 20:13:12 Deewiant: What. 20:13:17 o_O 20:15:59 I'm surprised Deewiant hasn't copyrighted "GOOD:" and "UNDEF:". 20:16:23 I'm not 20:16:30 I am. 20:18:28 -!- elliott has set topic: http://i.imgur.com/u3t65.jpg | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 20:19:33 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:21:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:21:24 -!- Guest99439 has changed nick to Gregor. 20:33:03 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:33:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:47:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:48:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:54:50 -!- fungot has joined. 20:54:56 Right, that too. 20:55:15 Right, what too? 20:55:32 -!- Guest21139 has joined. 20:55:34 The fungot, too. I had forgotten to bring it back. 20:55:35 fizzie: this is the corresponding verb. not a tree anymore. it's 10am. :( i can pay my rent. good thing paper was originally yellow or it be it by now. :) 20:56:03 fungot: You can pay your rent? Well, it's about time! You're been mooching off us for ever. 20:56:03 fizzie: i am your mother.") for online help, try /msg minion cliki? writing a cv in latex is not hard to do, 20:56:21 ... 20:56:31 A real bum-bot. 20:56:41 And also mismatched punctuation. 20:57:36 The Perl script version of his babbling does properly matching quotes and parentheses only, but I haven't implemented that feature into the Funge-98 version. 20:58:52 (Still, if he's writing a cv, maybe he's finally getting a job.) 20:59:43 "good thing paper was originally yellow or it be it by now. :)" 20:59:52 fizzie: I think fungot urinated on your stationary. 20:59:52 elliott: ( lambda x x)) 21:00:09 elliott: Very likely. He's worse than the cat that way. 21:00:43 You so have to add Roomba control code to fungot.b98 now. 21:00:44 elliott: don't you mean ( b 1) ( y f):: forall t. ( syntactic analysis is parsing. 21:00:55 Move with a Markov chain! 21:01:33 fizzie, don't you have a roomba? 21:01:56 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, we have one. I haven't really written anything for it, though. 21:01:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:02:25 fizzie, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU MUST DO 21:02:34 KICK SGEO UNTIL HE GETS A TRANSFER 21:03:39 Just something useful in case you want to print the date/time with leading zero for month, day, hours, minutes, etc, with TeX: \def\lznum#1{\ifnum#1<10 0\fi\number#1} 21:04:06 It is very simple even to figure out by yourself if you know about TeX. 21:04:14 Since it has been a topic here earlier: the latest C1x draft -- http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1548.pdf -- now has the diff-marks in the margin given against the final C99 spec. (Now if they'd get the diff-markers colored and add some sort of "jump to next change" hyperlinks, maybe a regular person could actually read it to check all the C99/C1x differences.) 21:04:33 Don't tell Quadrescence! 21:04:47 What are differences between C89/C99, C99/C1x, C89/C1x? 21:05:13 Is there a full list including the details? 21:05:31 Yes, it's called a copy of diff and the two specifications. 21:05:37 Sorry,t hree specifications. 21:05:47 *Sorry, three 21:06:01 13:04:33 Don't tell Quadrescence! 21:06:02 wat 21:06:03 elliott: Did they just take a copy of the old specification and change it? If so, then it would work, but if they rewrote it then such things as that will not work. 21:06:15 zzo38: http://home.datacomm.ch/t_wolf/tw/c/c9x_changes.html has a reasonable summary of C89->C99 changes 21:06:20 elliott, y'know, Mr C89 is the only C which counts. 21:06:30 Also, if they changed some section numbers, it might also do some things wrong. 21:06:32 zzo38: Probably they maintain it as a diff, by hand, manually. 21:06:35 PROBABLY. 21:06:57 C1x is based on the C99 document; I don't know how much that is the case when it comes to C89/C99. The published PDFs are not so very nicely diffable, though. 21:07:15 [[In what follows, I'll refer to C as it is defined by its original ISO standard (ISO/IEC 9899:1990, including technical corrigenda TC1 and TC2) as C89, the language as defined by C89 plus the normative addendum 1 is referred to as C94.]] 21:07:20 Regretting not buying C94 at this point. 21:07:20 Do they have published .txt files? 21:07:59 I don't think so, at least not officially. 21:08:36 elliott: There is no DNS on my computer for home.datacomm.ch 21:08:36 So, it will not load. 21:08:46 But as was mentioned, at least the C1x draft now has margin-markers like | for changed/new text and * for deleted text; perhaps some sort of a THING could extract only those from it. 21:08:47 zzo38: Err, you add DNS entries manually now? 21:08:50 And Deewiant is the one who linked that. 21:09:05 Trying to launch space shuttle. The range seems to have some trouble. 21:09:20 (Some computer trouble) 21:10:49 A dude at comp.lang.c also recently made a hyperlinked version of the C89-standard draft that has been floating everywhere around the internets with the name "ansi.c.txt", at http://www.bsb.me.uk/ansi-c/ansi-c -- but since it's a draft, it's not exactly identical to the real C89. 21:11:25 FSVO .txt 21:11:49 -!- augur has joined. 21:12:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:15:27 The C1x draft itself has a summary of "major changes" for both C1x and C99. 21:16:22 Two minutes remaining to fix that problem. 21:17:28 I see they've added a _Noreturn function-specifier (syntactically speaking same sort of thing as "inline"). 21:17:50 They fixed it. Counting down from 5 minutes. 21:18:19 Probably just rebooted it. :p 21:18:37 Then were all "Oh, now it worked. Weird." 21:18:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:19:09 Something was broken... Maybe it is fixed now I don't know 21:20:07 Ilari: Is this the Discovery last flight thing? 21:20:17 Yes. 21:24:25 -!- Guest21139 has changed nick to release. 21:24:43 lawl 21:24:49 /nick release != /nickserv release 21:25:03 -!- release has changed nick to Gregor. 21:26:12 Release early, release often. 21:27:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:28:03 -!- augur has joined. 21:28:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:32:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:33:19 "Instead of focusing on why an increasing number of people abhor the Batman's odious, xenophobic animadversions and are looking for alternatives, like the truth, I would like to remind people that the Batman's apparatchiks can be stereotyped as evil tools of prepackaged political ideology and lecherous, grotty stumblebums to boot." --Muammar al-Gaddafi, professional nutcase 21:33:31 -!- elliott has set topic: The Batman's Apparatchiks | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 21:34:19 Is that some sort of an expression, like "the bee's knees"? 21:34:43 I sure hope so. 21:34:46 More crazy: 21:34:47 http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/frsee/90_of_libya_in_rebel_hands_qaddafi_is_left_only/c1i6a10 21:34:47 elliott, nutcase, or BEST TROLL EVER? 21:35:00 [[Even the Batman's slaves don't care much for its political objectives; they simply wish to associate with other tendentious desperados and capitalize on our needs and vulnerabilities. Although the Batman won't admit it, it's a financial predator who preys on the elderly, the gullible, and the vulnerable. The Batman seeks their assets to support its own lavish existence. Keep that in mind while I state the following: Every so often, it tries ext 21:35:01 irpating the very things that I cherish. Whenever it gets caught doing so it raises a terrific hullabaloo calculated to practice human sacrifice on a grand scale in some sort of otiose death cult.]] 21:35:01 The Batman seeks their assets to support its own lavish existence. 21:35:15 "Very easy & funny way to prove Pythagorean Theorem, i.e., a^2 + b^2 =c^2" http://themetapicture.com/media/why-couldnt-i-have-been-shown-this-in-maths-class.gif 21:35:20 HILARIOUS 21:36:02 "Are all functions f:N->R continuous?" 21:36:02 "If one accepts the framework I've laid out here, it follows that if we don't raise several issues about the Batman's vile wheelings and dealings that are frequently missing from the drivel that masquerades for discourse on this topic then the Batman will intensify race hatred. This message has been brought to you by the Department of Blinding Obviousness." 21:36:05 Phantom_Hoover: BEST TROLL EVER. 21:36:06 No. No they aren't. 21:36:15 Yes they are, noncontinuous functions don't exist. 21:36:21 21:36:33 -_- 21:37:14 "I find it necessary, if I am to meet my reader on something like a common ground of understanding, to point out that the Batman's general prostration before prætorianism confirms that in a the Batman-led society, people who reach out to the poor, the marginalized, and those unfortunate enough to have been labeled as inarticulate by the Batman's propaganda machine will be suppressed, vilified, hated, imprisoned, exiled, and killed. But you knew 21:37:14 that already. So let me add that the spectrum of views between Jacobinism and materialism is not a line but a circle at which neo-malicious, salacious undesirables and unctuous hedonists meet. To properly place the Batman somewhere in that spectrum one needs to realize that the Batman maintains that corporatism is a noble goal." 21:37:17 WHAT COMIC BOOKS IS THIS GUY READING 21:37:53 I think he's saying that America is the Batman. 21:38:05 Obviously. 21:39:01 "And what I think is this: The Batman's terrorist organization (motto: "Replicate the most morally repugnant structures of contemporary life") is as squalid as squalid can be." 21:39:05 I... don't recall that motto. 21:39:27 when did Mencius Moldbug become a big thing? 21:39:35 (I take it that's Moldbug, no?) 21:39:35 Zwaarddijk: He's a big thing? 21:39:36 You've not been watching your Batman, evidently. 21:39:43 Zwaarddijk: Ha, nope. 21:39:46 Zwaarddijk: Gaddafi. 21:39:50 ok. 21:39:50 Zwaarddijk: Seriously. 21:39:53 right. 21:39:56 that's even worse. 21:39:57 Hmm, maybe Moldbug _is_ Gaddafi. 21:40:05 It's... it's a really tempting proposition. 21:40:08 because it looks like Moldbug's weird humor 21:40:28 Moldbug is a strange guy; I think we need to keep him around just to have a baseline to measure strangeness by. 21:40:31 Kind of like the kilogram. 21:40:32 elliott: Batman is all about not using guns ever, and replicating repugnant structures. 21:40:41 Moldbug isn't that excessively out there 21:40:42 fizzie: And corporatism. 21:40:57 he seems mostly just to be some kind of guy that doesn't take things too seriously 21:41:04 and is willing to admit that things probably are wrong 21:41:14 Batman: "Better put 5 cents in the meter." 21:41:15 Robin: "No policeman's going to give the Batmobile a ticket." 21:41:15 Batman: "This money goes to building better roads. We all must do our part." 21:41:22 -- see, it must be that sort of thing. 21:41:47 Zwaarddijk: You can only be so sane when you're an anti-democratic royalist and simultaneously support Austrian economics. 21:41:57 true, true 21:42:05 Oh look, he's made a post that seems to mention Gaddafi. 21:42:22 I'd say it's "about" that, but I don't think there's ever enough material on any subject to fill an entire UR post. 21:42:23 but ... anyways, he's a thing in that I've run into at least two persons today even aware of him in entirely different online communities 21:42:32 elliott: Ooh, also: 21:42:32 Dick: "Gosh, Economics is sure a dull subject." 21:42:33 Bruce: "Oh, you must be jesting, Dick. Economics dull? The glamour, the romance of commerce... Hmm. It's the very lifeblood of our country's society." 21:42:38 if you had reacted with "Moldbug - who?" he'd be less of a thing 21:42:56 Zwaarddijk: No, no, I am definitely knowing of things that are not things at all. 21:43:01 (I ran across some sort of "Batman lecturing Robin" quote page when trying to find the most Batmanish thing.) 21:43:11 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:14 Zwaarddijk: Actually I think my first exposure to him may have in fact been via Stanislav. 21:43:23 see, he is a thing! 21:43:30 (Datskovskiy, that is; relevant overblown rants at http://www.loper-os.org/.) 21:43:31 but uh, I dunno, the text quoted above somehow 21:43:33 to me at least 21:43:40 appeared as sort of moldbug-like? 21:43:41 Moldbug — who? 21:43:52 Phantom_Hoover: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/ 21:43:54 Moldbug. 21:48:13 hmm... am I supposed to be confused? 21:48:28 Mathnerd314, yes. Yes you are. 21:48:30 That's just the mo(u)ld on the bug. 21:48:41 The haze settles after a while. 21:50:05 hmm... should I read it now, when I'm sick and my mental defenses against whatever crap he's saying are lower? 21:50:23 He's not mad, just strange. Okay, he's mad. But he's not mad mad. 21:50:26 Just strange. And mad. 21:51:03 I want to make a Magic: the Gathering card like: "Make X copies of target spell controlled by opponent. Targets and controller of copies are the same as the original." 21:51:21 -!- eurasienne has joined. 21:52:27 eurasienne: Do I pronounce that "eurasian"? 21:53:12 No, you pronounce it like "eurasian" but with an "eh" rather than an "ah"? 21:54:27 you re asian)) 21:55:46 this channel is about esoteric programming languages. hello. 21:55:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:55:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:56:36 "Peace in Libya is quite the remote prospect, but at least we'll get some good television out of it. It's a pity that the dramatic events so far have been so poorly recorded." --Moldbug 21:56:51 zzo38: "Hall of Mirrors" 21:57:13 quintopia: Hall of Mirrors? 21:57:36 a suggested name for your card 21:57:51 OK 22:02:48 zzo38: I'd like to see someone copy that spell. :) 22:03:16 pikhq_: How did you go about learning Japanese, anyway? 22:03:41 elliott: Formal classes for 4 years, at which point I had about as much competence as a 5 year old (if that). 22:03:50 Heh 22:03:54 Sounds efficient 22:04:21 elliott: Then, I learned the kanji from "Remembering the Kanji", and read a lot. 22:04:59 Formal classes sound like such a pain. :( 22:05:04 elliott: Which, well, works a heck of a lot better. 22:05:07 (Yeah, yeah, I know.) 22:05:07 pikhq_, are formal classes just "phrase books but in class"? 22:05:13 (Not the voice of someone with a lot of dedication.) 22:05:29 pikhq_: I doubt learning kanji and then just plunging into books would work ... 22:05:54 elliott: A friend of mine started learning Japanese at about the time I got back into studying it... 22:05:56 Remembering the Kanji looks like good shit, though. 22:06:17 elliott: He learned the kanji, *spent a week on grammar*, then plunged into manga. :P 22:07:05 pikhq_: Kanji first sounds like something that could work for me and also might not ... on the one hand, it wouldn't require much effort or commitment, just basically-mindless memorisation... but on the other hand, it'd feel like a huge waste of time if I couldn't even express basic sentences for a long time. 22:07:23 elliott: BTW, might I recommend http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/ ? Khatzumoto is awesome, though slightly insane. :P 22:07:39 It's related to Japan. Insanity is a given. 22:08:00 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:08:03 elliott: I can guarantee that after a couple days of RTK, you'll be better-off than your typical first-year Japanese student. 22:08:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:08:23 * elliott reads http://www.enemieslist.net/japanese/ again for inspiration 22:08:35 "Iraqi war prisoners are often forced to major in Japanese. The term "Holocaust" comes from the Latin roots "Holi" and "Causm", meaning "to major in Japanese".." 22:08:38 (formal classes work more poorly for Japanese than most other languages, simply because kanji present a serious barrier-to-entry.) 22:08:40 *remove extra . 22:09:10 (not to say they work any good, anyways) 22:09:11 "Japanese vocabulary is determined by throwing tiny pieces of sushi at a dart board with several random numbers attatched to it. The numbers are then fed into a machine. The machine is then destroyed." 22:09:50 "Katakana are used only to spell out foreign words in a thick, crippling japanese accent, so that you'll have no idea what you're saying even though it's in English. However, if you remember one simple rule for Katakana, you'll find reading Japanese much easier: Whenever something is written in Katakana, it's an English word! (note: Katakana is also used for non-english foreign words. And sound effects, and Japanese words)." 22:10:05 Oh, and after RTK the hiragana and katakana will probably come really, really easily. 22:10:27 "Kanji are letters that were stolen from China. Every time the Japanese invaded China (which was very often) they'd just take a few more letters, so now they have an estimated 400 gazillion of them. Kanji each consist of several "strokes", which must be written in a specific order or Japanese people will laugh at you. Each character conveys a specific meaning, like "horse" (note that the character for horse could also mean "car". Or "police offic 22:10:29 er". Or "Didacticism")." 22:10:30 What with both kana systems being highly-mutated kanji used for phonetic value only. 22:10:31 I forgot how amusing this article is. 22:10:46 "Kanji can also be combined to form new words. For example, if you combine the Kanji for "small", and "woman", you get the word "carbeurator"." 22:11:18 pikhq_: The one thing about Japanese that's putting me off learning a bit is the retarded politeness stuff... 22:11:19 少女 ← ? 22:12:08 pikhq_: Although I suppose I could just pretend to be from Hokkaido 22:12:12 (Was it Hokkaido?) 22:12:31 elliott: If it makes you feel better, the distinction between plain and polite form is entirely regular and fairly easy, and the distinction between polite form and formal forms *doesn't come up much*. 22:12:49 Not to mention that native speakers fuck it up all the time. 22:13:13 pikhq_: It should be mentioned at this point that I forget that the word "please" exists on a regular basis. 22:13:14 (it's, a dying feature of Japanese grammar, near as I can tell.) 22:14:27 pikhq_: OTOH Japanese sounds easier than Finnish which is a major plus. (HELLO tswett) 22:14:42 Sorry, I forgot how to say "Hello" in Finnish. I think it's 25 letters long. 22:14:57 You'll probably appreciate the regularity. 22:15:34 pikhq_: I, er, kind of plan to speak in my own personal polysynthetic dialect. 22:16:23 "The Japanese have what could be called an "interesting" grammatical structure, but could also be called "confusing", "random", "bogus" or "evil". To truly understand this, let's examine the differences between Japanese and English grammar. 22:16:24 English Sentence: 22:16:24 Jane went to the school. 22:16:24 Same Sentence In Japanese: 22:16:24 School Jane To Went Monkey Apple Carbeurator." 22:16:32 LOOKS LIKE FORTH TO ME 22:16:54 "What's more, the Japanese also do not have any words for "me", "them", "him, or "her" that anyone could use without being incredibly insulting (the Japanese word for "you", for example, when written in kanji, translates to "I hope a monkey scratches your face off"). Because of this, the sentence "He just killed her!" and "I just killed her!" sound exactly the same, meaning that most people in Japan have no idea what is going on around them at an 22:16:54 y given moment. You are supposed to figure these things out from the "context", which is a German word meaning "you're screwed"." 22:17:06 pikhq_: Please tell me that "X did it" is a common Japanese defence in court. 22:17:17 "By X do you mean X, or X?" "Definitely X." 22:17:35 ジェインが学校へ行った。(Jane [subj.] school [to] go[past]) There, actually correct. 22:18:01 What's with the brackets around [to]? 22:18:04 Implicit? 22:18:31 It's a grammatical particle, and I don't feel comfortable not leaving it in brackets. 22:18:52 pikhq_: Should I avoid trying to use an IME to "start" with? 22:19:14 I was considering adding a Japanese keyboard layout right now as a sort of reminder-motivator, but then I realised that I'd have to type in semi-romaji or whatever. 22:19:23 Which might not gel so well with the learning kanji thing. 22:19:51 elliott: Most Japanese people use an IME and type in rōmaji. 22:19:59 pikhq_: Yes, I know. 22:20:08 In some IME you can switch between romaji method or kana method. 22:20:18 pikhq_: But does that Remembering the Kanji thing have the romaji as part of the educationamationalearnin'? 22:20:19 Yeah, but who the fuck uses the kana layout? 22:20:28 Or is it just learning the translations? Well, I guess that would be stupid. 22:20:30 elliott: Remembering the Kanji doesn't have any of the readings. 22:20:41 pikhq_: ...meaning that an IME is going to be a bit useless, no? 22:20:46 Yes. 22:21:00 pikhq_: I won't bother setting one up, then. 22:21:34 It's more about putting you into a situation analogous to a Mandarin speaker learning Japanese, then to have you Finish Learning All There Is To Know About Kanji™. 22:21:54 pikhq_: I DO NOT LIKE THESE TRADEMARK CAMELCASINGS 22:22:20 With the funny squiggles having actual meaning to you, you need only care about the language, instead of getting hung up for years on funny squiggles. 22:22:39 pikhq_: Still, I have this /slight/ delusion that being able to produce Japanese on a whim might help me learn better than just consuming, and writing kanji sounds like a bitch. 22:22:49 (Also paper doesn't have you to correct my hee-LARIOUS mistakes.) 22:23:00 So that's a bit of a bummer. 22:23:04 -!- func67AE has joined. 22:23:34 elliott: Read AJATT, for Khatzumoto is one awesomely crazy man. 22:23:51 Read some Japanese manga book and learn about Washizu mahjong. 22:23:59 elliott: He went from scratch to fluency in 1.5 years. 22:24:05 pikhq_: I don't see the direct link between that and learning the romaji :-P 22:24:22 elliott: You're only going to realistically be using romaji for typing. 22:24:35 Unless you do formal classes! 22:24:35 pikhq_: Precisely. 22:24:45 pikhq_: Now let me think ... what would I want to use Japanese for... 22:24:47 -!- func67AE has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:24:49 pikhq_: AH YES: Reading and typing. 22:25:04 Also some IME allows customizing romaji input method, in addition to allowing you to switch to kana method as well. 22:25:12 It's not like I'll be writing letters in Japanese. 22:25:28 elliott: You'll probably end up writing a lot of kanji, anyways. 22:25:42 pikhq_: But I dislike paper! 22:26:17 elliott: Then write it on the whiteboard. 22:26:21 Looks like you don't add an IME by adding a keyboard layout in Ubuntu. GNOME intuitivity! 22:26:35 Input methods. OKAY 22:26:52 pikhq_: Err. Chinese Pinyin? 22:26:56 Is that the input method I need? :P 22:27:11 @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw 22:27:12 "\"" 22:27:21 No. You need to make up your own input method. 22:28:11 elliott: Depends, do you want to learn Pǔtōnghuà? 22:28:17 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:28:17 -!- cheater- has joined. 22:28:22 pikhq_: Unless this is a trick question, no. 22:28:27 Perhaps I don't have the moonspeak IME. 22:28:35 (that's Pinyin for "Mandarin") 22:28:49 Erm, well, obviously, pinyin-transcribed Mandarin. 22:29:03 pikhq_: So hey, what spaced-repetition-system thing is good for Linux. 22:29:14 Anki. 22:29:32 -!- AndroUser has joined. 22:29:49 hello 22:29:55 AndroUser: Yes? 22:29:57 Hello. 22:30:40 Meh, CBA getting an IME set up right now. 22:30:44 -!- AndroUser has changed nick to whtspc. 22:30:53 it's from norway! 22:31:05 Oh, welcome back whtspc. 22:31:12 I was just thinking about Paintfuck yesterday actually. 22:31:23 ah ok 22:31:36 pikhq_: Man, Anki looks like a pain to set up. 22:31:51 im actually doing nothing with programming nowadays 22:32:10 whtspc: How boring. :) 22:32:14 just testing irc program on my phone 22:32:21 :) 22:33:02 tsusch! 22:33:04 -!- whtspc has quit (Client Quit). 22:33:15 elliott: Uh? apt-get install? 22:33:24 pikhq_: No, I meant the actual cards. 22:34:02 Oh, there's this download thing where the first entry is Heisig's Remember the Kanji (RTK) 1+3. 22:34:04 MODERN CONVENIENCE? 22:34:30 pikhq_: Is it worth learning kana any time soon? 22:35:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:35:19 elliott: Either do it right before RTK or right after. 22:35:38 pikhq_: It sounds boring, so let's say right after. 22:36:03 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-khatzumoto-no-for-real ;; man, this guy has some dedication. 22:36:04 Just learning kana stops you from doing a lot of pronunciation fuckups. 22:36:12 I dunno if I can spend that much time a day learning :P 22:36:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:36:20 pikhq_: Mm... maybe I will then. 22:37:22 Granted, mostly because it stops you from trying to apply English rules to it. :P 22:37:41 >_> 22:39:26 My soul dies every time someone says "Cone itchy wa." 22:39:27 Learn kana and kanji 22:39:56 * elliott installs Japanese support. 22:40:35 PolicyKit suuuucks 22:42:01 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:42:07 I GAVE YOU MY PASSWORD 22:42:09 AUTHENTICATE 22:43:29 pikhq_: is japanese sov or osv? 22:43:46 SOV. 22:44:10 With every part of the sentence optional. 22:44:29 pikhq_: I bored am word orders conventional such by. 22:44:41 ("I am bored by such conventional word orders.") 22:45:35 Also, because of the whole grammatical particles thing, OSV is valid, if motherfucking weird sounding some 90% of the time. 22:45:46 Erm. 22:45:57 No, make that 99.99999999%. 22:46:18 [[This same intricate labor-division-responsibility-dissipation system continues today, allowing Western societies to commit acts of violent cruelty both at home and abroad, and then shrug it off and act helpless. 22:46:19 Consider the steak. One person kills an animal inhumanely, another cuts up her body parts, another packs them, another ships them, another stocks them, another buys them, another cooks them, another eats them.]] 22:46:19 How much annoying veg/etarian/eganism is there in a typical AJATT post? :-P 22:46:35 isn't japanese predominantly topic-comment, rather than SOV 22:46:40 elliott: Not much, and he loves steak. 22:46:47 Zwaarddijk: OH SURE MISTER LINGUIST 22:46:54 JUST COME AND SHIT ON OUR PARTY 22:47:10 shitting on parties is a favourite hobby of mine 22:47:13 Great big party DUMP. 22:47:29 why else would I regularly sign up on christian forums, and point out minor things they're wrong about (instead of the big things) 22:47:55 Self-righteousness? 22:48:39 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:49:14 A case of dickitis? 22:49:19 :-P 22:49:27 pikhq_: Pfft, my valiant efforts to make my computer talk to me in a language I can't speak a single word of have been thwarted by Ubuntu's user-friendliness. 22:49:36 Specifically despite installing all the support for it the Japanese option remains greyed-out. 22:49:55 elliott: FURIȲÔ, KORIȲA. 22:50:09 Furk yoo too. 22:50:58 Oh, yeah, OVS order isn't too unusual. Kinda suggests a lot of emphasis on the action in question, though. 22:51:09 pikhq_: I have a pretty bad case of dickitis 22:51:17 pikhq_: OVS? in Japanese? 22:51:20 I suppose it'd be pretty off in formal writing, though. 22:51:22 isn't it pretty strongly verb-last? 22:51:27 ORANGES EAT SAM!!!! 22:51:43 Zwaarddijk: Typically. 22:52:11 all _real_ languages are polysynthetic and have totally free word order 22:52:26 Say, 90% of the time? But sticking the topic at the end is valid and idiomatic, sometimes. 22:53:34 pikhq_, why doesn't my computer want to talk to me in Japanese. 22:54:21 elliott: His Imperial Majesty did nasty things to it. 22:54:29 In America, you kill yourself. In Soviet Russia, yourself kill YOU!! 22:54:47 OH. 22:54:52 It's just that I have to use its stupid dragging interface. 22:54:56 Mere CLICKING is unacceptable. 22:55:27 pikhq_: So, er, if you don't hear back from me when I disconnect, it's because I logged in again, couldn't figure anything out, and am reinstalling my OS. 22:57:44 -!- eurasienne has quit. 22:58:21 You didn't try using the command shell? 22:59:07 zzo38: I'm kidding. 22:59:41 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:00:55 -!- elliott has joined. 23:01:01 pikhq_: Oh god everything is in Japanese what have I done 23:01:38 pikhq_: Wait, wait, I bet I can fool myself into thinking this is a good idea. 23:01:49 pikhq_: BY LEARNING HOW TO USE MY COMPUTER LIKE THIS I WILL BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ALL THE WORDS MEAN -- HAHA 23:01:50 Oh man 23:01:51 That was a good one. 23:02:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:02 I have a feeling that pikhq_ is going to start responding to everything I say in Japanese. 23:03:28 勿論。 23:03:34 God damn 23:03:55 ^_^ 23:04:01 pikhq_: I have no idea how to use my computer any more. 23:04:15 Although I'm currently trying to disable the menu icons just to spite myself. 23:04:27 "Feb24(KANJI) (Thu) PM11:35" what kind of fucked-up date-time format is that 23:04:49 That is really fucked up. 23:05:15 elliott: Stupid, perhaps? They should use number and kanji for Japanese 23:05:40 Oh, right. It's trying to format a UK date format... in Japanese. 23:06:27 The proper date format would be 2月24日11:35. 23:07:13 -!- EgoBot has joined. 23:07:32 -!- HackEgo has joined. 23:08:08 pikhq_: Quick, spin me some bullshit about how not knowing how to use my computer will help me learn Japanese. 23:08:28 elliott: If you know not your computer, what else shall you do with your time? 23:08:49 pikhq_: Use my computer in hilariously comical ways that emulate failure. 23:09:37 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-panel/+bug/478980 "It's not a bug, it's a feature." 23:11:28 pikhq_: {+~t}--,\"-- means Server, right? ({} is grouping, symbols represent what they look like, ~x represents x flipped) 23:11:29 X-D 23:11:41 (i.e. grouping N symbols to represent one letter.) 23:13:11 elliott: the Finnish for "hello" is actually "päistääjyppiloidaruustanen". 23:13:19 tswett: Seriously? :P 23:13:27 So, 26, if I count correctly. 23:13:37 The Finns here can attest. 23:13:44 Deewiant fizzie. 23:13:49 Ilari. 23:14:07 Your writing is not very clear it is difficult to read the words like {+~t}--,\"-- 23:14:22 zzo38: Well, -- is just a long dash. 23:14:28 Actually, that's "hi". "Hello" is just "päistääjyppiloidaruusta". 23:14:35 {+~t} means one symbol that looks like a + sign with a backwards t following it, where the tail goes underneath the +. 23:14:55 ,\" means a forward swoop like a comma, then the same backwards, with two little ` ticks after it. 23:15:24 elliott: gee, let me look those up for you. 23:15:28 OK, yes I think that does mean "server". At least it sounds like the English word "server", I think.... 23:15:41 Oh, it is just a transliteration? 23:15:51 That would explain why it's so much easier to type out than the other ones. 23:16:09 Yes I think in that case it is. 23:16:15 The first one is... um. 23:16:17 = \pi on top, (P with - on top) and man holding up flat plate on bottom. What kanji is that?! pikhq_?! 23:16:44 Okay, the word is サーバー. 23:17:02 It's katakana, that's why it wasn't in the hiragana table. 23:17:12 Yep. 23:17:19 = \pi on top, (P with - on top) and man holding up flat plate on bottom. What kanji is that?! pikhq_?! 23:17:21 I'M WAITING 23:17:47 elliott: can you not look these up somehow? 23:17:58 tswett: Probably, but where is the fun in that? 23:18:18 Of course. 23:19:09 -!- Gregor has joined. 23:19:16 Gregor has come to save you. 23:19:31 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest83343. 23:19:54 Shit, he's gone. 23:19:56 -!- Guest83343 has changed nick to Gregor. 23:20:00 Oh, he's back! 23:20:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:20:53 サーバー is most definitely server. 23:21:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:21:23 sâhầ is how I'd romanise it. 23:21:34 Most people would go with "sābā". 23:22:00 = \pi on top, (P with - on top) and man holding up flat plate on bottom. What kanji is that?! pikhq_?! 23:23:00 ... Wut? 23:23:17 It's basically a 2x2 grid. 23:23:21 Top-left looks like =. 23:23:26 Top-right looks like the pi symbol. 23:23:36 Bottom-left loops like a "P" rendered digitally i.e. no curves, with a - line on top of it. 23:23:45 Bottom-right looks like a swishy "X" with a line above it. 23:23:49 Connected, that is. 23:24:58 Uh, wuuut. 23:25:13 I can explain the reading of the word for "server": The first symbol is sound "sa", the second symbol after the long dash is sound "ba" (without two short dot would be "ha"), and the long dash is long vowel mark making the preceding vowel sound longer. 23:25:23 Uh, wuuut. 23:25:27 By grid I don't mean it has any separators. 23:25:33 I'm just saying that it loks like four symbols in a grid to me. 23:26:02 Yeah, not helping. 23:26:03 Some kanji has two or three or four parts arranged horizontal of vertical. 23:26:11 s/of/or/ 23:26:23 pikhq: http://ompldr.org/vN2p1MQ 23:26:29 You can also look it up in WWWJDIC, can look up words and kanji. 23:27:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:28:22 pikhq: . 23:28:48 *Oh*. 23:29:12 =, pi, P with line, X with line! 23:29:22 NOT DIFFICULT YO 23:29:22 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to haskellnoob. 23:29:31 設 23:29:36 Yes. That. 23:29:41 How is this not CLEAR to you. 23:29:43 haskellnoob: haha noob 23:30:20 Yes, it is. I parse that as 言 + 几 + 又. 23:30:37 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:30:39 -!- haskellnoob has changed nick to copumpkin. 23:30:54 peer really gets angry at calling others "noob" 23:30:56 And 言 is itself 口 + some lines. 23:31:28 -!- elliott has joined. 23:31:37 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:31:49 Just like 'E' is 'F' + a line 23:31:57 Gregor: Yep. 23:34:09 -!- augur has joined. 23:38:49 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:40:20 -!- EgoBot has joined. 23:42:37 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:47:11 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:50:57 -!- HackEgo has joined. 23:51:10 -!- Gregor has joined. 23:51:35 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest57906. 23:53:48 -!- Guest57906 has changed nick to Gregor. 23:56:01 Oy, prgmr is being made of fail tonight. 23:56:16 Not as much fail as you, Guest57906. 23:57:04 -!- EgoBot has joined.