00:08:39 Is it safe to say that if I wrote an esolang interpreter in Clojure, you'd all shoot me? 00:08:58 fizzie: I updated the inner clear of FFSPG to use (({{}})), which it was always supposed to use. 00:10:21 Hmm... How many different non-singular nxn matrices over GF(2) there are? For n = 2, there are 6. 00:16:46 Time for still more linear algebra. 00:21:05 -!- cheater- has joined. 00:23:54 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:23:56 BTW: The program found 134 cubes. And looks like it ran out of range, so there are probably more. 00:24:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:24:48 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:24:56 The biggest is about 6.8*10^26 in magnitude. 00:28:26 Checked: 1G cubes, found 134, largest 677667955666576979957565952 00:32:53 Man, there are still periods without known oscillators in the Game of Life. 00:33:01 19, 23, 34, 38, 41, 43, 53. 00:33:42 They discovered some new periods? 00:34:04 Ilari: Hm? 00:34:14 They did, yes. 00:34:20 31 and 37 were discovered by random search. 00:34:30 http://pentadecathlon.com/lifeNews/2011/01/is_life_omniperiodic.html 00:35:12 "A particularly small universal Turing machine (henceforth abbreviated to UTM) is the 7-state 4-symbol machine by Minsky. There even exists a UTM with only two states and three symbols, discovered by Stephen Wolfram." 00:35:16 "discovered by" *sigh* 00:36:47 "The printer design is very simple and easily adapted to other uses, such as a hexadecimal printer with alphanumeric characters A-F added, similar to the extended printer in the fine-structure-constant-generating pattern that appeared at the beginning of April." 00:36:53 But is it the fine structure constant of Life? :-) 00:38:23 Heh. Tangent-0 17c/45 spaceship gun... That would be caterpillar gun? 00:39:17 indeed 00:43:20 -!- comex_ has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 00:46:46 -!- comex has joined. 00:47:47 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:48:50 Would be quite impressive and high-period. At about 331k cells long, it would take about 875k cycles just to clear the gun barrel. 00:49:35 Hmm... Universal constructor. Could probably build a caterpillar. 00:50:53 When attempting to view some forum, I got the message "Sorry, 172.29.30.76 has been banned." (with the 403 status code) instead of the forum view. I can find at least 2 things wrong with that. Can you? 00:51:01 -!- comex has quit (Client Quit). 00:51:08 Ilari: Well, there's a universal constructor, and also a knightship self-replicator... 00:51:09 -!- comex has joined. 00:51:09 local ip address? 00:51:53 403 seems like maybe not the best choice too, but whatever 00:52:20 For one thing, that isn't even my IP address. 00:52:22 well, 403 is forbidden 00:52:27 so i guess it makes sense 00:52:32 but most things would return a legit html page or something 00:52:38 of course it's not your ip address, it couldn't be 00:52:38 Heh. Reminds me when I got one site to block itself (broke some things). 00:52:53 well, unless the server was on a local network with you 00:53:22 172.16-31.*.* is reserved 00:53:27 RFC1918. 00:53:28 for local use, like 10.* 00:53:34 and 192.168.* 00:53:54 Also, in case of being banned, you should still be able to view it (it should only prohibit sending messages). (You can view without being logged in!) 00:54:17 My local network is 192.168.* anyways. 00:54:24 Could be a reverse-proxy/load-balancer sort of thing, but banning the IP of a reverse-proxy frontend sounds like a rather bad move. 00:55:09 Sometimes reloading the page causes it to load correctly, and then a bit later it will say banned again. 00:55:18 (My LAN is 10.0/8 and some /64 in IPv6 ULA range (oh, and FE80::/16 also sees some use). 00:56:26 fizzie: seems like maybe an admin didn't know what they were doing 00:56:30 zzo38: fits with load balancing 00:56:46 i've used 172.something before just to be RaNdOm 00:57:20 I use 10...0/24 as the different local-network subnets here. 00:57:32 (With the same for all subnets, of course.) 00:58:41 Yes, it does seem they banned some of the load balancing and that caused something mixed up. 00:59:37 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:59:49 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:01:06 Is there some order for local network addresses in case of one local network inside of another? 01:02:56 it doesn't really matter how many you have inside each other 01:03:08 assuming you are talking about NAT here 01:06:18 Yes 01:07:23 the ips are translated, that's the T in NAT 01:07:27 :P 01:07:35 so when you 'nest' them, it doesn't really matter WHAT they are 01:07:51 though it's conceivable that maybe poor implementation could get confused if internal and external used the same subnet 01:07:55 OK, but is there a standard for the order of nesting? 01:08:24 I wouldn't go and do multi-level NAT without any particular reason, though. (Having the outer NAT controlled by someone else is a valid reason, of course.) 01:09:47 Yes, there is generally not a good reason to do multi-level, but in some cases you do, and in these cases it might sometimes be useful to have a standard nesting order. 01:10:20 Are most routers you buy using 192.168.* group? 01:10:49 Yes, I would guess so; and 192.168.0.0/24 and 192.168.1.0/24 are probably the most popular single /24s inside that. 01:11:04 what do you mean about the 'order of nesting' 01:11:08 there's no reason for it 01:11:22 it doesn't affect anything, or at least it shouldn't 01:11:38 Mostly in order to prevent confusion, is the reason for having an order of nesting. Not much else. 01:11:45 the only time i've had a problem with local ips is when my stepmom's work used a common router subnet for their VPN 01:11:47 which was dumb of them 01:12:04 they could have chosen something else and not had to put up with a big chunk of tech support calls from people VPNing from home 01:12:23 Actually (even though it's not at all a standard) my gut feeling is that 192.168.0.0/16 is what "normal people"/"consumers" use; 10.0.0.0/8 is used by "enterprise-level solutions"; and 172.16.0.0/12 is used by people who just want to be different (and/or is not used at all). 01:13:10 At least I've seen 10.x quite often in corporate contexts, and all home-router defaults seem to come from the 192.168. area. 01:13:20 Then they should assign one group for VPN in order to prevent such problems with VPN. 01:13:49 That's still problematical if you want to be connected to more than one VPN at the same time. 01:14:02 my first dsl modem used 10 01:14:41 Here the modem uses 10.x address internally. 01:15:01 Back at dialup times I think at least one ISP used 10.x addresses for their nameservers and such. 01:15:11 -!- TLUL has joined. 01:15:15 The recursive-query ones used by their clients, that is. 01:15:41 And perhaps even as the PPP link remote-endpoint, I don't think PPP endpoints need to be in the same network at all. 01:15:42 (and that is indeed the reason I use 10.x for this LAN). 01:16:26 SLIRP by default uses some magical 10.x addresses too. 01:16:42 Ilari: It looks like you are connected using IPv6 address though. 01:16:53 This is all LAN-internal stuff. 01:17:23 But does your connection to the internet is IPv6, while the LAN is IPv4? 01:17:29 There is absolutely no valid reason to be able to reach that modem internal address from outside this LAN. 01:17:52 Ooh, jwhois is so clever: 01:17:53 $ whois 2002:5870:3714::1 01:17:53 Querying for the IPv4 endpoint 88.112.55.20 of a 6to4 IPv6 address. 01:17:54 Yes, you would be correct. 01:18:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:18:36 LAN can carry both IPv4 and IPv6 traffic. 01:19:04 fizzie: I do not have whois, but I could connect to one if I know the host name (or IP address) and port number of a whois server, and then see what it does. 01:19:09 Ilari: Haven't considered going to a v6-only LAN setup? It'd be like you were living ten years in the future. :p 01:19:41 What are IPv6 LAN addresses? Are they just the translation from the IPv4 LAN addresses into IPv6? Are there others? 01:20:06 They are very different. 01:20:56 What is the host name and port number for the whois servers? How do I figure out what they are? 01:21:08 The "unique local address" (ULA) addresses perhaps correspond closest to current private-network addresses. 01:21:17 And/or the deprecated site-local scope addresses. 01:22:00 Some IPv6 traffic in this LAN actually involves 2000::/3 block adresses. 01:24:15 zzo38: There isn't really a good way to determine the whois server responsible for a particular address/domain; though there are a few attempts. (tld.whois-servers.net tries to be a CNAME of the whois server for .tld domains, and there are some forwarding records from whois servers you can follow. In particular, I think whois.iana.org redirects into the reponsible RIR?) 01:24:39 And there's a standardish port, 43. 01:26:02 I cannot connect to tld.whois-servers.net, it cannot resolve the domain name. 01:26:15 I mean com.whois-servers.net and so on. 01:26:22 But at least now I know what port number is whois. 01:26:28 fizzie: OK. 01:26:34 Yes, if you ask whois.iana.org about my IP, it answers back with (among other fluff) "refer: whois.ripe.net". 01:26:39 So you can keep following those. 01:27:32 I think I figured out what causes the escalating ping delay: IPsec 01:29:23 It looks like the whois replies also include advertisements from people registering domain names that start with the one you are trying to search for. 01:30:29 Heh, for domains maybe. 01:30:37 The ones for IP addresses just contain poetry. 01:31:01 OK 01:31:19 In case of SixXS tunnels, you can keep following the records like this: http://p.zem.fi/v55u -- though for whois.sixxs.net the forwarding isn't automatic, it's just mentioned in the remarks: section. 01:31:51 Okay, removed IPv4 addresses from interfaces (on this computer, the other one needs those). Let's see what breaks. 01:32:50 Ilari_antrcomp: Do you have some sort of a NAT64/DNS64 system there, or some other transition mechanism? If not, I would assume all IPv4-only sites would break. :p 01:32:52 (oh, and of course 127.0.0.1 is still there. 01:33:06 REMOVE 127.0.0.1!!!!!! 01:33:14 It won't remove. :-/ 01:33:25 fizzie: IPv4-only sites -- heh, like, all sites 01:33:37 elliott_: Well, there's a v6 facebook, what else do you need? 01:34:16 I would guess that you can connect to whois using a (good quality) gopher client, with no problem. You could connect to finger and daytime as well. 01:34:22 I wonder if you can nowadays build a Linux kernel with IPv6 but not IPv4 support. ISTR it wasn't possible at some point, since the v6 code depended too much on the v4 code and not on some common, shared set. 01:34:29 I think you can. 01:34:39 At least I don't recall the IPv4 checkbox being force-ticked when IPv6 was. 01:36:21 IPV6 .. Depends on: NET [=y] && INET [=y] :/ 01:36:34 Aww. 01:37:37 At least you can do IPv6 netfilter without IPv4 support, they have a common higher-level "core" part. 01:39:23 I'm honestly a bit surprised no-one has yet managed to sneak in a netfilter module to do some sort of ad-hoc IPv6 NAT. 01:40:08 Oh, found one place that assumed IPv4 connectivity to another computer. Fixed & tested. 01:40:29 Or even that NAT66 (prefix translation) 01:40:30 Ilari: Enjoying your 4 am computer-breaking? 01:40:37 Yup. 01:40:52 Good, good. 01:44:32 In fact I don't think the mangle table in v6-netfilter can really do much anything. Okay, you can MARK/CONNMARK/etc connections there (and then apply different routing tables based on those), and twiddle the DSCP/hop limit/TCP MSS/TOS values, but that's about it. 01:44:38 Heh. Tcpdump (to see what's on that LAN spoke) warns about lack of IPv4 address. 01:44:51 * Sgeo tries Leksah 01:45:47 tcpdump is fond of that warning, I think you get the same if you tcpdump a slaved-to-bridge iface that doesn't have/need any v4 addresses. 01:47:29 WARNING: You are probably a time traveller! 01:48:40 [PH-logreading:] (Block log); 01:55 . . Conficker (Talk | contribs) blocked Gooniepunk2010 (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 3 seconds (about right) (account creation disabled) (Member of a website supporting internet terrorism) 01:48:48 Are three-second blocks the... norm on RationalWiki? 01:49:06 Oh, looks like a beuaroeuaroeouar- bear crat. 01:51:45 Fun: One can add the same IP address to two different interfaces. 01:53:25 Ilari: You use a tunnel right? 01:53:29 So your ISP is v4-only? 01:53:34 YOU'RE COMMUNICATING WITH A V4 HOST 01:53:34 Yeah. 01:53:36 THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE 01:53:40 RECONFIGURE YOUR MODEM 01:53:41 AND ROUTER 01:53:46 Make them refuse to connect to your ISP. 01:53:48 :-D 01:53:51 Purity at last! 01:55:04 There's no seperate router. 01:55:34 Maybe they just wanted to add it to the ban log instead of making them banned. 01:55:42 "Holistically Balanced™ guarantees that the constituents of the extract are in the same synergistic ratios as in the plant." 01:55:42 lawl 01:55:45 Ilari: Reconfigure the moderouter, then. 01:55:47 moderouterm. 01:56:38 Gregor: Including all the toxins? :-) 01:57:09 Can I make wiki for TeXnicard? 01:59:06 It looks like the thing is a hub to LAN side, not a router. 02:00:47 zzo38: NO. 02:00:49 YOU ARE FORBIDDEN. 02:01:15 Gregor: Aren't you still crying on the floor? 02:01:20 zzo38, note that you are probably not actually forbidden 02:03:00 I am not asking whether or not I am forbidden. I am asking if I can. 02:06:00 How should we know? 02:09:46 Clove must be the most powerful friggin' extract I have ever dealt with. 02:13:28 What is the git protocol, so that it can make wiki that keeps the list of changes in the git repository? 02:13:49 zzo38: Just call out to the git command-line tool. That's what everyone does. 02:14:00 Or use a git library in your language of choice, though if that language is PHP you're out of luck. 02:14:05 Oh, it exists. 02:14:06 glip. 02:14:17 http://fimml.at/#glip 02:14:27 I suppose it does not have to be PHP, of course. It could also be CGI. 02:15:53 It could also be a C program with Cygwin. 02:16:20 Cygwin is slow enough that just shelling out to git would make no noticeable speed difference. 02:18:14 But, does Cygwin include git library for using in C programs? 02:18:38 Cygwin doesn't include anything. 02:18:44 It is just a compatibility layer. 02:18:51 I think git comes with a library these days. 02:19:07 I have Cygwin installed and it happens to include git, too. 02:19:33 What is the C library, can I check if it has it? 02:22:26 Or, maybe I can look at glip codes to figure out how to make it in PHP4. 02:23:35 Also, it needs to work over secure shell protocol since that is what repo.or.cz uses. 02:23:50 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:24:08 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:28:41 It was probably a bad idea to end up having all of my linear algebra homework pending the day before it's due. 02:28:48 Thank God I'm quick. 02:41:58 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:46:12 -!- TLUL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:46:41 -!- TLUL has joined. 02:54:20 14:43:11 999999 = 1M999 02:54:22 beautiful 03:00:53 Dear textbook: computing an O(n!) algorithm more than once is stupid and retarded and stupid. 03:01:18 Dear textbook: computing an O(n!) algorithm when there exists an O(n^3) algorithm is fundamentally pointless. 03:01:47 (yes, the O(n^3) algorithm in question is also in the textbook) 03:12:21 Sounds vaguely like matrix inversion there. (Was the determinant-based solution O(n!)?) 03:12:47 Computing a determinant via cofactor expansion is O(n!). 03:13:03 Computing it via row reduction is O(n^3). 03:32:58 18:32:17 Just for giggles, I wrote a program to use (attempt to) use genetic algorithms to generate a P'' program that will produce the text "Hello, world!" 03:32:59 18:32:27 The closest it got after 1000 iterations was "HMMMMMMMMMMM!" 03:32:59 18:32:48 (PS I don't have a fegging clue how to do this) 03:32:59 Hmmmmmmm. 03:33:47 I think Sony has been sued due to them removing OtherOS feature and ability to run PlayStation 2 games. I probably will not buy it, but I definitely will not buy it if they do not put both of these features back on. 03:35:52 zzo38: Just the OtherOS feature. 03:36:11 yes. they are being sued for that. under the same code they were suing under. 03:36:21 00:47:04 Also, it gets caught in local optima way to easily :( 03:36:22 00:47:23 Its equation for the hypotenuse of a triangle: x+.5*y X_X 03:36:24 zzo38: They only stopped having the PS2 compatibility on new systems; if you bought a PS2-compatible system, it is still PS2-compatible. 03:36:25 that is my favourite 03:36:31 it's close enough if you ask me 03:36:49 01:48:23 --- quit: sanxiyn ("전 이만 갑니다.") 03:36:49 hm what are those characters... 03:36:50 3+0.5*4=5 03:36:55 elliott_: Hangul. 03:36:57 quintopia: like i said. close enough. 03:37:01 4+0.5*3=5.5 03:37:04 very clsoe 03:37:13 Very clsoe indeed. 03:37:17 As clsoe as close is to clsoe. 03:37:20 Can't tell you more than that, because I don't speak Korean. 03:37:25 pikhq: right 03:37:38 clsoer than i am to my ex-gf 03:38:28 Though, being of at least average intelligence, I could probably learn Hangul in a few hours if I cared to. 03:38:32 135th cube... 03:38:34 quintopia: MEGAN~ 03:38:52 pikhq: Well, they do both hardware and software remove features. This should not be acceptable. Other things they removed in the hardware is some USB ports, which means you need a USB hub. 03:39:05 Removing USB ports is UNACCEPTABLE 03:39:16 If your product has 3 USB points at any point in time, it can never decrease to only having 2 USB ports. 03:39:17 zzo38: I consider removing features from later hardware revisions annoying, but acceptable. 03:39:18 That should be illegal. 03:39:24 ILLEGAL 03:39:47 Not because it had 3 USB and now as 2. It used to have 4. 03:39:52 Removing stuff via firmware updates? Pretty bullshit. 03:39:59 zzo38: OH NOOOOOOOOO 03:40:09 elliott_: are you referencing the recurring character from xkcd? 03:40:18 So now you cannot play a 4 player game with wired USB controllers unless you have a USB hub. 03:40:21 Removing a feature that's listed on the fucking box via firmware updates? Complete and utter bullshit, and I want there to be a hell for those responsible to fry in. 03:40:23 quintopia: *ex-gf of Randall 03:40:35 zzo38: And the stock controllers aren't wired. :) 03:40:35 has that been confirmed? 03:40:41 quintopia: There is no possible way Megan is fictional. 03:40:49 quintopia: You could ask him. 03:40:52 Unless Randall had a relationship with a fictional character. 03:40:59 Which I suppose is... possible... 03:41:01 pikhq: he's pretty private about that sort of thing 03:41:01 #xkcd on irc.foonetic.jet 03:41:06 foonetic dot JET 03:41:10 net 03:41:12 elliott_: i doubt that was her name even if she's based in fact 03:41:12 No. 03:41:15 It's served from a jet plane. 03:41:22 Removing features using firmware update is even more unacceptable. 03:41:27 quintopia: Names are irrelevant. 03:41:42 mm 03:41:45 I think removing PS2 support is also stupid and unacceptable, although that seems to also be a hardware issue? 03:41:59 zzo38: How do you feel about PCs no longer shipping with BASIC in the BIOS? 03:42:10 15:02:35 ok, I already knew what monads are then, just not the word 03:42:10 15:03:06 why "monad" though? 03:42:11 15:03:22 Dunno. What else might they be called? 03:42:11 15:03:34 function objects? 03:42:11 The universal sign of non-comprehension. 03:42:13 Well, I dislike it. Now it means you need to install an operating system! 03:42:16 pikhq: i do know what he got on the mental disease survey though :P 03:42:25 Oh, and yeah, they removed PS2 support because the hardware for that was pretty expensive, and they wanted to cut costs. 03:42:28 pikhq: You are attempting to use logic on zzo38. This has been a PSA. 03:42:39 pikhq: Then they should put an emulator. 03:42:54 (launch systems had an entire PS2 in there, later ones just had the PS2's GPU, then they cut that.) 03:43:01 zzo38: The PS2 is a *royal* bitch to emulate. 03:43:32 I doubt we'll be capable of decent PS2 emulation on normal hardware for 10 years. 03:43:38 18:51:52 HURD sounds nice 03:43:38 18:55:34 It does. And if somebody would care to help out the GNU system maintainer, it would even *be* nice. 03:43:39 18:56:04 (ams, in #natter and ##hurd. . . Ironically, in spite of being GNU maintainer, he's banned from #gnu) 03:43:39 18:56:53 hmph 03:43:39 18:57:49 microkernels are elegant 03:43:39 Then they should readd the OtherOS feature so that other people can collaborate to make the PS2 emulator and run on PS3, and then ship the PS3 with that program preinstalled as an operating system. 03:43:41 19:00:02 Pikhq: must be a complete asshole? 03:43:43 19:03:52 Nope. The channel owner kicked out a lot of the ops. 03:43:50 pikhq: HATING HIM TO RECTIFY YOUR PREVIOUS MISJUDGEMENTS, I SEE 03:43:56 19:11:18 zomg, ams isn't in #gnu anymore? 03:43:56 19:11:34 That channel might be tolerable now, then 03:44:14 elliott_: Well, he *is* a complete ass, but that's not why he got kicked out. 03:44:42 elliott_: Channel founder had a power trip and booted out a bunch of ops, including ams. 03:44:52 pikhq: I blame you for subconsciously planting (note: lies) the idea in my head that helping ams out would be a good idea, leading to him developing a hatred for me X-P 03:44:58 :P 03:45:10 He'd have probably been nicer if I called his mother a goat and /ignored him. 03:45:43 I'm not sure why I thought he was anything but an ass then. 03:45:54 RABID GNU FANBOYISM 03:46:15 I mean, *RMS* thinks ams is an ass. 03:46:28 The PS3 is very powerful so hopefully it should be possible to emulate PS2 at a reasonable speed if enough people try. If the OtherOS feature is put back, enough people *will* try, and then Sony can make the PS2 emulator as the default operating system in OtherOS mode. 03:46:28 haha, really? 03:46:30 how did that one transpire 03:46:37 zzo38: No, emulating the PS2 is almost impossible. 03:46:41 It has like three CPUs. 03:46:49 Well, I think two CPUs and one very powerful GPU. 03:46:54 pikhq can correct me on that. 03:46:58 Emulating that is almost impossible. 03:46:59 powerful? 03:47:00 elliott_: More than that. 03:47:04 powerful for a long time ago 03:47:13 zzo38: They pushed the PS3 hardware nearly to the max just emulating the PS2-minus-the-GPU. 03:47:19 And it has a freaking *weird* GPU. 03:47:20 quintopia: I don't actually own a PS2, but I do know that emulating the entire thing is pretty much impossible. :p 03:47:24 The PS3 has eight cores isn't it? (Only seven can be used (one is reserved for the PS3 system and is disabled in OtherOS mode), but you should be able to, somehow) 03:47:28 (On, you know, consumer hardware.) 03:47:32 zzo38: GPUs aren't easy to emulate at all. 03:47:40 Emulating a GPU with a CPU is a basically futile task. 03:47:47 Heck, look at the Checkout language. 03:47:56 The whole point is that you can't do those kinds of things with a CPU. 03:48:08 zzo38: All 7 were used to emulate the rest of the PS2's hardware when they did mostly software emulation. 03:48:15 i was surprised he knows so much about gpu actually 03:48:35 Then they would need to make the GPU in PS3 also programmable in OtherOS mode. 03:48:42 ... 03:48:48 wat 03:48:55 quintopia: who knows so much about gpu? 03:48:58 the author of Checkout? 03:48:59 ais 03:49:01 I would require them to do so, that is what they have to pay for removing two features!! 03:49:07 quintopia: his supervisor is some kind of gpu maniac, so i'm not surprised :) 03:49:12 didn't know that 03:49:24 zzo38: ok you realise that 03:49:26 removing features is not illegal 03:49:28 nor even inherently bad? 03:49:46 zzo38: also, a programmable gpu is crazy talk. are you that crazy? 03:49:47 Yes; but both of these features are important and advertised features. 03:50:02 quintopia: I am a bit crazy 03:50:18 The freaking thing has 4 CPUs and a weird-ass GPU. 03:51:06 Which, for no good reason, can do up to 1080p. 03:51:06 `addquote zzo38: also, a programmable gpu is crazy talk. are you that crazy? quintopia: I am a bit crazy 03:51:40 pikhq: They should have included a REAL LIVE DUCK with its brain hooked up to the motherboard, just so that full emulation requires emulating a duck. 03:51:45 Do they even still sell PlayStation 2? 03:51:53 Emulation: SOLVED. 03:51:54 zzo38: Yes. 03:51:56 319) zzo38: also, a programmable gpu is crazy talk. are you that crazy? quintopia: I am a bit crazy 03:52:03 zzo38: Yes. 03:52:10 zzo38: $99 for a brand-new PS2. 03:52:15 If they do still sell PlayStation 2, then the problem is not quite as serious. 03:52:18 zzo38: The PS2 has made insane amounts of money over its lifespan and will continue to make insane amounts of money for the forseeable future. 03:52:35 And they only intend to stop selling the PS2 when it stops selling. 03:52:44 Which is likely to be sometime after the PS4 comes out at this rate. 03:53:36 It's freaking hit 11 years of sales and has no signs of stopping. 03:54:28 well 03:54:42 I suppose then, that PS3 not running PS2 programs is not as serious, but it still might be false advertising. OtherOS feature being removed is therefore more serious, and that might also be false advertising. 03:54:50 as of 2009Q4, PS3 outsells it... 03:54:56 so that's a sigh of stopping... 03:55:04 s/gh/gn/ 03:55:07 zzo38: They don't freaking advertise that it does PS2 emulation anymore. 03:55:54 Removing shit via firmware upgrades with no recourse to legally restore an older firmware is Evil(TM) and should arguably be illegal. 03:55:59 Maybe they should advetrise that it does *not* do PS2 emulation (at least in the manual), to clarify it. Because they are all called "PlayStation" and this might confuse some people. 03:56:01 Removing features on new models is perfectly acceptable. 03:56:08 PS3: Revision 3 might just be a cardboard box with a horn in it. 03:56:11 And that would be fine. 03:56:31 zzo38: It's only false advertising if it can confuse someone who isn't an idiot. 03:56:33 elliott_: That part about firmware upgrades I agree with; it is far worse than removing hardware features from new hardware. 03:56:34 quintopia: Yup, 3 years after its successor came out the PS3 finally started to outsell the PS2. 03:56:46 Erm. Rearrange that. 03:56:53 yes 03:57:02 Almost everyone who wants a PS2 has one. 03:57:05 There can only be so many sales on top of that. 03:57:11 elliott_: OK, it is not false aftertise then; still it is possible someone might think it does, which is why the manual at least should mention that it does not run PS2 games. 03:57:29 zzo38: it probably does >.> 03:58:31 Removing features from new hardware is not quite as bad, but I still think in many cases it is not very good; especially if the new hardware is not said to be a completely new product with a different name and everything like that. 03:59:10 zzo38: as long as they don't say "new and improved!" 03:59:22 elliott_: Well, just this January they sold 260,000. 03:59:41 Well, yes. If they say "new and improved" then they are completely wrong; the only improvement is the larger hard drive. 04:00:27 Sure, pales in comparison with the other consoles (getting about a million each), but that's pretty significant to be pulling *5 years after it was made obsolete*. 04:01:59 (And I do also think there are many problems with modern PC BIOS; although a new one can still be written, so it is not too much of a problem. The only real problem is that new PC will not run without an operating system.) 04:03:20 Just replace the BIOS with Open Firmware. 04:03:34 Super-fast, extremely elegant, incredibly simple, and you have a full Forth system at your disposal without any need for an operating system. 04:03:46 Not only that, but the Forth system has full access to the system hardware and the booting process. 04:04:04 elliott_: That would work. Does Open Firmware work for normal PC operation? 04:04:05 Even better, Open Firmware is a fully open standard. 04:04:13 zzo38: Yes. There are implementations of Open Firmware for x86 processors. 04:04:58 What I mean is, can you still install the same operating systems using the same PC BIOS calls and that stuff? Is it possible to make a combination of Open Firmware with PC BIOS? 04:05:42 I think there might be a compatibility layer. Not sure. 04:05:52 I don't know all _that_ much about Open Firmware. 04:05:59 But it was certainly nice on that 1998 iMac. 04:06:34 Should be possible to do, in the same manner of EFI emulation. 04:07:08 Forth is pretty much the perfect BIOS language. 04:07:29 elliott_: Yes I agree it is the best program language to have built-in to the BIOS. 04:07:31 Incredibly simple implementation, full access to the underlying hardware, concise, readable and efficient, and fully extensible. 04:10:27 What else would be useful in there is a command that takes a URL (or address/port/selector) as parameter, and then downloads the file to RAM and executes the file (which you might use to install a operating system over the internet in case you have no physical media to install an operating system from). 04:10:56 I would put in a terminal emulator, too (but that is just me). 04:14:08 zzo38: you would have to initialise all the network hardware too 04:14:14 hey i forgot about this http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CRTL 04:14:50 oh hey oklopol wrote a program in that 04:14:55 i think oerjan might like that language o' mine 04:16:00 Network booting tends to be a supported thing in most places. (I haven't bothered to read the context here.) 04:16:18 Usually by downloading a file over tftp or something. 04:16:20 fizzie: this channel is now about http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CRTL 04:17:29 When ais523 comes in, it should be about Checkout because I typed something on the Talk page for that article. 04:18:00 But CRTL is more funs. 04:18:51 You can discuss CRTL too. But when ais523 comes in I will also discuss Checkout too. 04:20:24 Open Firmware is the nicest, though: the devices (PCI cards and such) had platform-independent forth bytecode drivers burned on ROM on them, so Open Firmware itself didn't need to know about all possible network cards and other hardware, it just used the bundled driver for basic functionality. 04:22:33 fizzie: The above context was basically Open Firmware lovin'. 04:22:54 fizzie: The problem is in case some devices do not have such drivers? However, I think Open Firmware is still good idea in general. 04:22:58 A rare example of a truly minimal, clean, usable and elegant system being put into widespread use without complaints. 04:26:13 Maybe not quite widespread use as it should, though. Most PC BIOS does not include Open Firmware. Although they really should include it. 04:27:04 zzo38: I was referring to the fact that all New World ROM Macintoshes used it. 04:27:25 So, every iMac and Power Macintosh-post-1998 up until the Intel switchover. 04:28:13 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:28:41 -!- sftp has joined. 04:29:29 Many Sun boxes too, under the name OpenBoot. 04:29:44 Indeed. 04:32:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:34:16 15:58:24 your real name is elliott hird, mine is oklofoan polakir 04:34:20 always with the lies 04:34:23 my real name is john 04:34:29 pork john interval 04:36:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:37:35 Interval: Greatest surname ever? 04:39:13 yes. 04:39:17 (not biased) 04:39:23 Pork: Greatest forename ever? 04:39:26 yes. 04:39:28 (not biased) 04:39:39 Gregor: All I need is a Ph.D. 04:39:42 Good morning, Dr. Interval. 04:39:48 BEST SUPERHERO/VILLAIN EVER 04:43:19 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:55:54 -!- augur has joined. 05:11:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:24:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 05:25:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:36:35 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk. 05:39:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:39:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:45:44 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:05:41 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL. 06:06:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:06:55 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:11:44 anyone know a way to get google to stop treating newer stuff as more relevant. I'm trying to find information that is over a decade old 06:37:04 "The conversion to a C string in-place means we need to read one less than the size of the buffer." 06:37:14 "All these issues resulted in compile time errors." 06:37:30 Compile time checking of off-by-one errors? 06:37:38 (Or, well, at least this one) 06:40:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:40:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:04:12 -!- zeotrope has joined. 07:16:49 Finally finished with linear algebra. 07:17:33 pikhq, now would be a bad time to ask you to teach me algebra? 07:17:38 *linear algebra 07:18:08 Sgeo: It would be much easier for you to learn outside of a classroom, I expect. 07:18:30 Since you would be able to completely avoid the retarded emphasis on manual computation of algorithms that have no right to be done that way. 07:19:17 * Sgeo vaguely remembers writing Python scripts to do his Spanish homework and TI-BASIC programs to do his math homework 07:19:21 Especially mother-fucking O(n!) algorithms. 07:19:30 Oh. Enn. Factorial. 07:20:44 pikhq, surely for very very small problems it's not that bad? 07:20:47 *innocent look* 07:20:47 Or O(n^3); that's pretty bitchy, too. 07:20:56 Sgeo: It's still a bitch. 07:21:41 * Sgeo decides that what pikhq needs is a nice O(1) problem 07:22:01 It's this sort of shit that makes people hate math: bland, pointless algorithm computation is done *in place of* math. 07:22:31 Sgeo: What, like 1-digit multiplication? Where we memorise a look-up table? 07:22:39 :) 07:23:05 Would rewriting a matrix size n*n with bottom rows on the top etc. be O(sqrt(n))? 07:35:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:37:42 23:35:52 --- join: oerjan (oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric 07:37:47 wtf timezone is that 07:38:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:41:17 Seems like UTC-9. 07:42:36 Alaska Standard Time, French Polynesia time, and Hawaii-Aleutian Daylight Time. 07:42:49 ... Wait, 23:35? 07:43:02 UTC-8:30? The fuck? 07:43:41 and i actually joined 09:08 in my timezone 07:44:08 Yeah, looks like 01:08 in my timezone. 07:45:20 usually i'd expect UTC-9 from clog at this time of year at least 07:45:34 or wait 07:45:35 ... UTC-9? Is clog in Alaska? 07:45:38 UTC-8 07:45:48 Yeah, see, that'd make sense. 07:46:01 I bet clog just doesn't sync with NTP. 07:46:06 (forgot my own timezone isn't UTC) 07:46:19 yeah but 35 minutes? :D 07:46:40 All the more reason for NTP. 07:46:41 also, i'm pretty sure it was reasonably synced not _that_ long ago 07:46:52 Well, unless it's inexplicably on Pitcairn Island time. 07:47:01 (which ceased to be UTC-8:30 in '98) 07:47:27 huh i thought pitcairn was further west than that 07:48:30 No, it's a bit east of Hawai'i. 07:48:44 And quite a bit further south. 07:49:57 hm yeah north america is far more west than south, so it's still in the middle of the ocean 07:50:05 *than south america 07:51:06 http://maps.google.no/maps?hl=no&biw=1070&bih=592&q=pitcairn%20island%20map&wrapid=tlif129870841650011&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl 07:51:36 dammit i was hoping that included my unzooming 07:53:52 for some inexplicable reason the right click menu for the (i assume) permalink inside google maps _lacks the actual "copy this link" item!_ 07:54:09 so i tried the address bar, which didn't work 07:54:24 http://maps.google.no/maps?hl=no&q=pitcairn+island+map&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hereheretue&ll=-19.973349,-144.84375&spn=123.556837,242.226563&t=h&z=2 07:54:38 i actual had to open that in order to copy the address 07:54:41 *ly 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:47 TIL: I have the same birthday as William Shatner. 08:03:07 Who turns fucking *80* next month. 08:12:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:38:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:00:33 hello 09:33:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 09:35:28 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:36:34 compiling gcc is annoying 09:40:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:41:38 why 09:44:23 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:44:48 quintopia, because it takes ages 09:45:04 quintopia, and now the dep cloog is acting up and don't want to compile 09:45:21 screw it, I'll just compile with the proper -march on another computer that has the right gcc version... 09:45:24 sounds like a personal problem 09:45:29 quintopia, ... what? 09:45:52 you don't have to ping me right now. there is no one else talking :P 09:45:59 still: what 09:46:06 also I'm used to high traffic channels 09:46:15 nickpinging is a habit that is hard to get rid of 09:46:59 quintopia, besides, what did you mean with "sounds like a personal problem" 09:47:34 yes, i understand, but it's good to not forget the reasons why you do something, and you know, not do stuff that isn't necessary if possible 09:47:47 it sounds like your personal sstem is the problem 09:47:54 i bet others can compile it just fine :P 09:48:03 define "sstem" 09:48:22 also I can compile it just fine on other computers 09:48:27 though it takes ages there too 09:48:41 I blame that computer for it. Ubuntu LTS 09:50:01 lucid? i run lucid. i bet i could compile it no probs bobs 09:50:22 quintopia, gcc 4.5.2 ? 09:50:27 quintopia, and yes lucid 09:51:03 quintopia, also needs to go into $HOME/local/gcc-4.5.2 btw :P 09:51:30 I done this before (for gcc 4.5.0) and it worked but it is still a PITA 09:51:46 especially since I need 4.5.2 to compile bsnes it seems 09:51:51 4.5.0 doesn't work 09:51:58 huh 09:52:15 what are you going huh over 09:53:00 great. Compiling on another computer almost worked. 09:53:16 $ ldd ./bsnes | grep not 09:53:17 libao.so.4 => not found 09:53:25 apart from that 09:56:17 bin/bsnes: symbol lookup error: bin/bsnes: undefined symbol: _ZN9QListData11detach_growEPii 09:56:19 okay what the heck 09:57:38 $ nm -CD bin/bsnes | grep detach_grow 09:57:38 U QListData::detach_grow(int*, int) 09:57:39 ah 09:57:42 possibly QT 09:57:54 screw it. Lets try statically linked 09:58:34 link += -s -ldl -lX11 -lXext <-- or maybe not 09:58:40 -ldl doesn't sound good 09:59:11 indeed it uses dlopen 10:00:07 give up now. settle for the massive assload of twisted hackery that is zsnes 10:01:30 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:05:12 quintopia, zsnes doesn't run the game in question properly 10:05:20 quintopia, besides it worked with some LD_PRELOAD stuff 10:05:31 I copied most of the QT libraries across 10:05:34 oic 10:06:15 quintopia, and the computer with gcc-4.5 that I have, which can compile this thing (runs Arch Linux) has a Sempron 3300+. The game sound stutters on it using bsnes 10:06:43 meh, i'm used to game sound stuttering 10:07:11 quintopia, I can't stand that. Lets see how it works here 10:07:21 wait, need to copy roms across 10:09:07 ah smooth 10:09:09 so far 10:21:21 quintopia, which is your favourite SNES game? 10:22:19 SMW. i'm not very exciting :P 10:22:31 quintopia, for me it is Chrono Trigger definitely 10:22:41 kk 10:23:38 quintopia, haven't played it? 10:23:41 well worth it 10:24:19 better than Secret Of Mana and the Final Fantasy series even IMO. 10:24:49 quintopia, and of course, Square developed it 10:25:52 quintopia, Super Mario RPG is also near the top 10:27:00 ok 10:29:21 quintopia, I'd say that Secret of Mana comes as clear number two of best SNES games ever. Then Super Mario RPG. Then some of the Final Fantasy games. Then Zelda - A Link to the Past 10:35:14 ok 10:35:22 In many ways I have to say that Secret of Mana had the best battle system. Not a separate mode as such (as in Final Fantasy 3) but integrated into the continual gameplay. But Chrono Trigger beats it thanks to such an awesome story. Even though the battles are something in between the two games. 10:35:34 (still in normal view but battle mode that is) 10:36:01 while final fantasy 3 switches to a side view mode for battles 10:37:16 quintopia, you don't like RPGs or? 10:38:13 i just don't snes much 10:38:16 but yeah 10:38:20 mainly i don't like rpgs 10:38:34 platformers for me please 10:38:36 quintopia, right. That is why our lists are so utterly different then :P 10:38:48 don't really like platformers. Not enough story 10:39:50 quintopia, for me the story is one of the most important parts of the game. Without an epic story a game isn't worth playing (exception would be the kind of games you use to fill up a few minutes while waiting for the bus, such as a minesweeper clone or whatever) 10:41:29 Hmm... Cubes at 143. Squares still at 11 (there probably aren't more). 10:42:26 Largest cube: 32 359 333 255 236 395 269 222 926 293. Largest square: 888 288 787 822 276 10:42:40 Ilari, what are you doing? 10:42:55 Trying to calculate subsequence subsets of cubes and squares. 10:45:09 Ilari, why? 10:45:24 vorpal: i prefer platformers with a kick-ass story 10:45:28 like psychonauts 10:46:06 Vorpal: For fun? 10:46:24 (but the gameplay is more important than the story overall) 10:50:33 Ilari, ah 10:50:41 quintopia, haven't played that one 10:59:53 Vorpal: Basic idea is: Take a set of strings. Then see what strings in the set you can't strike any symbols from to get another element of the set. That is fiendishly hard for most sets (computing some members of that subset is easy, proving you got them all is very hard). 11:00:05 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:00:44 For primes in base-10, that set is known to contain 26 primes. 11:03:14 Ilari, exactly 26? 11:06:31 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:12:33 Yes. 11:13:38 For powers of two in base 10, it likely contains 5 elements (1, 2, 4, 8, 65536; but proving this seems extremely hard). 11:13:54 And anyway, if that set contains sixth element, it is extremely large. 11:16:18 For squares in base 10 (starting from 0), I get: 0, 1, 4, 9, 25, 36, 576, 676, 665856, 7888885568656, 888288787822276, ... (the set either does not have more or the greater elements are much bigger than last I got). 11:18:03 This subset is always finite (but unbounded among sets) in size. 11:19:26 To see it is unbounded. Take set of all binary strings at least k symbols in length. The size of this subset for this set is obviously 2^k. Now as k increases without bound, 2^k increases without bound. 11:28:30 mhm 11:32:23 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:34:45 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:35:25 -!- Zuu has joined. 11:36:17 -!- cheater- has joined. 11:38:20 And the sparser the original set, the larger the subset tends to be. Primes has subset of size 26. Absolute pseudoprimes has set of size >4000. 11:40:52 Of course, how regular the set is also affects it. 11:41:55 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 11:41:56 Actually, I think that the set is computable if the original set can be described by regular language. 11:44:47 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:47:34 -!- vovten has joined. 11:50:46 And for basically any set that can be described by any class of languages with following properties: 1) The class is closed under difference. 2) Emptyness of generated set is decidable, 3) The class can express strings comtaining given symbols in given order, 4) lexicographically first string described by language can be computed. 11:54:29 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 11:57:51 The algorithm is: subset(L): S = {}; while(!empty(L)) { t = first_of(L); S = union(S, {t}); L = diffrence(L, supersequences(t)); }; return S; 11:58:20 heh 11:58:52 That may not be efficient, but at least that runs in finite time. 12:00:34 Ilari, what is the complexity though? 12:01:17 also "That may not be efficient, but at least that runs in finite time." is quite a strange statement in most contexts 12:01:42 Might be something crazy, even for regular languages (to say nothing about more complicated classes). 12:02:33 Ilari, such as? 12:02:51 (how crazy I mean) 12:03:27 Exponential? I haven't looked at that in detail. 12:03:41 ah 12:03:52 Ilari, exponential isn't crazy. Just bad. 12:04:21 Ilari, for a complexity to be officially crazy you need worse than O(n!) 12:04:49 sorry, "worse than or equal to" of course 12:04:56 bogosort is O(n!) and crazy 12:05:24 At least you can make it blow up exponentially in number of states in original DFA. Most probably doubly-exponentally. 12:07:07 Ilari, nice 12:17:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:17:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:38:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:40:12 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:42:35 -!- olsner has joined. 12:43:09 -!- olsner has quit (Client Quit). 12:43:36 -!- olsner has joined. 13:14:01 -!- yorick has joined. 13:16:16 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:22:58 -!- olsner has joined. 13:35:10 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:38:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:00:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:00:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:09:25 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:18:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:42:31 * Sgeo wants to try Microsoft Bob 15:43:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:45:56 Phantom_Hoover, what do you think about Microsoft Bob? 15:46:08 "XD". 15:46:51 Why? 15:48:21 I was thinking about why I got into Creatures, I thought about Microsoft Agent, wikied, discovered that Microsoft Bob was a predecessor of sorts 15:48:44 And it sounds fun. And a bit like this old Greetings Workshop program I used to have and love 15:54:54 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:55:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:06:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:13:52 [...] 4) lexicographically first string described by language can be computed. <-- i think mean shortest, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa is before b in lexicographic order 16:13:56 *you mean 16:15:18 more relevant, ab is before b 16:18:39 hm i think you can replace it with 4) _some_ string described by the language can be computed 16:18:55 because you can then check every substring 16:19:30 *subsequence string 16:22:05 Not if your lexicographical order for different-length strings is defined by padding in front with a lower-than-any-real-symbol blank. That way the shortest strings will always come first. 16:23:19 that's not how lexicographic order is usually defined, fizzie 16:25:35 No, but it's not a too untypical ordering for arbitrary-length strings. Is there a particular term for it? 16:25:49 I sort of assumed that sort of ordering from his descriptions. 16:27:56 Not if your lexicographical order for different-length strings is defined by padding in front with a lower-than-any-real-symbol blank. That way the shortest strings will always come first. <-- that assumes though that you only have to deal with finite strings 16:28:29 the definition of string usually includes finiteness 16:28:43 oerjan, hm okay 16:28:50 Vorpal: just compare from the end of the string then 16:28:55 olsner, that works 16:29:08 Seems to be the "shortlex order". 16:29:38 it's pretty much treating strings as numbers 16:29:42 fizzie, no need to actually pad to do that 16:30:01 Yes, but it's one way to think of it. 16:30:03 olsner, what is? 16:31:14 I was thinking about why I got into Creatures, I thought about Microsoft Agent, wikied, discovered that Microsoft Bob was a predecessor of sorts And it sounds fun. And a bit like this old Greetings Workshop program I used to have and love <-- gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! 16:31:25 Vorpal: I think this order is the same order you'd get from comparing the numbers you'd get from interpreting the strings as base-n numbers (if you have n symbols) 16:31:52 olsner, oh right. That seems plausible indeed. 16:33:20 olsner, it would work for finite positive integer n at least I'm pretty sure 16:33:40 (not that fractional negative ones would be sensible) 16:33:50 strings are usually defined with a finite set of symbols 16:33:55 olsner, indeed 16:34:03 also, integers are usually defined not be fractional 16:34:09 oerjan, .D 16:34:12 :D* 16:34:30 oerjan, that was what I said though 16:34:38 it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye 16:34:42 :P 16:34:53 but what about the fractional integers!? 16:35:06 oerjan made those up 16:35:11 I never mentioned them 16:35:13 no, Vorpal did 16:35:20 no I didn't 16:35:23 LIAR 16:35:35 (not that fractional negative ones would be sensible) 16:35:44 "olsner, it would work for finite positive integer n at least I'm pretty sure" "(not that fractional negative ones would be sensible)" <-- the second statement is giving a rational for the first one 16:35:59 oerjan, yes that is a rationale for why I restrict it to integers and positive onesx 16:36:01 ones* 16:36:01 YOU STILL MADE THEM UP TO USE THEM FOR REASONING 16:36:15 oerjan, no, they were not integers then 16:36:20 they were non-integers 16:36:38 I like your idea of fractional integers though 16:36:39 but bbl 16:37:00 3DNA is basically a 3D Microsoft Bob 16:37:05 I once liked 3DNA 16:37:12 It's indeed giving a rational, since it's no longer about integers. 16:37:42 * oerjan swats fizzie -----### 16:37:52 How irrational. 16:38:07 well i'm a complex person 16:38:45 it's all fun and games until someone loses an i 16:39:25 RECYCLING IS ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY. also i don't recall when/if i said that. 16:39:56 recently, you did 16:40:07 eye(n) is the MATLAB function to return a nxn identity matrix. 16:40:13 um not recently, sure 16:40:26 *surely 16:41:03 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:41:21 Better put that matrix operator away, you'll shoot your I_n out. 16:42:22 Also related! PostrgreSQL time input accept the string "allballs" as representing the UTC midnight. 16:42:32 Since 00:00:00 is all balls. 16:45:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:49:48 wtf :P 16:50:29 fis=> SELECT TIME 'allballs'; 16:50:33 time 16:50:33 ---------- 16:50:36 Gregor: what are you wtfing at? 16:50:37 00:00:00 16:50:45 ais523: What fizzie just said. 16:50:51 ah 16:51:01 try "help analyse" and "help analyze" in mysql sometime 16:51:31 "help anal lyse" 16:51:32 there are two completely different commands... 16:54:11 Special date/time inputs: "epoch" (1970-01-01 00:00:00+00), "infinity", "-infinity", "now", "today", "tomorrow", "yesterday", "allballs". 16:54:45 (The infinities are later/earlier than all other timestamps, "now" is transaction start time, and the days are midnight today/tomorrow/yesterday.) 16:55:29 fizzie, about postgres allballs.... why!? 16:55:38 fizzie, does some silly standard specify it? 16:55:42 or is there just no reason? 16:55:58 " 00:00:00 16:56:01 Whoops. 16:56:07 "I'm sure it isn't in any SQL standard ;-). Tom Lockhart is doubtless 16:56:07 responsible for it being in our code; I suppose he put it in because it 16:56:08 is in reasonably common use at JPL." 16:56:11 (From the mailing list.) 16:56:20 fizzie, JPL? 16:56:40 jet propulsion laboratory? 16:56:49 I wonder what use they would have for a database though 16:57:12 olsner, for storing test results? 16:57:53 Could be just a PostgreSQL developer randomly from JPL doing other stuff there. 16:58:04 olsner, I mean considering how different a jet engine can behave over the flight envelop you end up with a lot of data from tests. 16:58:08 http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/bsf2-3.php mentions "all balls". 16:58:17 fizzie, what is JPL! 16:58:26 or was olsner not joking? 16:58:29 NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, yes. 16:58:36 ... heh 16:58:56 fizzie: true, might not be directly related to JPL like that 17:00:01 They do seem to use Postgres there, though. 17:00:07 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:00:09 00:00:00.000000 <--- that is some high precision 17:00:12 Google -> http://dsnra.jpl.nasa.gov/software/postgres/ 17:00:20 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:01:37 hm something I was considering before... Not sure if anyone played all the games (and thus is able to compare them) but... How would you compare the battle/combat systems of Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy III (all for SNES) 17:02:32 Vorpal: Final Fantasy III (Japan), or Final Fantasy III (US)? They're entirely different games. 17:02:36 *Final Fantasy VI 17:02:42 ais523: He said "all for SNES" 17:02:43 ais523, hm... The US one 17:02:52 unless I'm off 17:02:56 well the one for snes 17:03:00 Gregor: good point, the Japanese game was NES, presumably? 17:03:03 Yuh 17:03:15 The FF3 for SNES is FF6. 17:03:19 right 17:03:20 and yes, what the Americans call Final Fantasy III is actually Final Fantasy VI 17:03:23 Anyway, that's a very broad question :P 17:03:29 yes it is 17:03:32 and that's the name it's given nowadays in remakes, at least in the UK 17:03:38 they have very different battle systems 17:03:53 Secret of Mana is more like the Zelda series' battle system. 17:03:55 in how it integrates with the non-battle world for example 17:04:15 Chrono Trigger just uses the scenery, but is otherwise a normal JRPG battle system. 17:04:18 Gregor, indeed, it doesn't have a separate battle mode as such. That is one main difference. 17:04:22 FF6 is a classic JRPG battle system. 17:04:23 quite 17:04:56 Gregor, considering personal preference, how would you rank these battle systems? 17:05:39 same question goes to ais523 if he played the games 17:06:06 Vorpal, from my completely uninformed perspective, Zelda. 17:06:20 I say this because I detest management of any sort. 17:06:24 Phantom_Hoover, zelda was not involved here? 17:06:29 *shrug* 17:06:43 Secret of Mana is more like the Zelda series' battle system. 17:06:48 Phantom_Hoover, yes 17:06:59 Phantom_Hoover, but it is not relevant in ranking which one you prefer 17:08:04 for me it is (best battle system to worst): secret of mana, chrono trigger, ff6 17:08:39 * Vorpal waits for Gregor and ais523 to answer 17:09:02 Vorpal: err, I haven't played any of the games in question 17:09:08 ais523, ah okay 17:09:12 well then, Gregor 17:09:17 i don't remember a ton about any of them, but i like the menu based systems best 17:09:20 although I've seen other people play some of Chrono Trigger and of FF6, it didn't give a good feel for how the battle system worked 17:09:31 the active ones have novelty value, but i don't like turning my rpgs into an attempt at a brawler 17:09:54 though i kind of enjoyed the tales series's fighter-like battle systtem 17:10:12 myndzi, I wouldn't call secret of mana that active. It is similar to zelda. But using some sort of circular wheel style menu for spells iirc 17:10:13 Secret of Mana is multi-player capable which is a plus, and that possibility /is/ related to the battle system. 17:10:26 Gregor, ah, could be 17:10:26 yeah, i don't remember SoM very well 17:10:32 but don't you still have to "run up and whack stuff"? 17:10:33 well, Pokémon is multiplayer capable too, and it uses a menu-based battle system 17:10:34 Vorpal: Could be? Is :P 17:10:34 that's the part that annoys me 17:10:46 Gregor, right 17:11:02 the hitboxing and all that is fairly crude and you basically have no real chance of getting particularly good at making use of the character control for dodging and stuff 17:11:06 myndzi, I like being able to retreat from stuff freely and so on 17:11:16 except in situations where it's a fundamental part of playing 17:11:24 myndzi, it allows a lot more tactics than the fixed style of classical JRPG 17:11:25 like boss fights, which can be like dumbed down shmups 17:11:47 well that's really my complaint; i don't recall ever playing a game with a system like that where it felt particularly tactical 17:11:55 it was more just "run around and try not to get hit" 17:12:06 positioning didn't matter a great deal 17:12:07 of course the AI for the PCs you are not controlling atm in secret of mana was pretty dumb 17:12:21 which brings it down to timing and attack selection 17:12:25 which is accomplished with menu systems 17:12:28 hm 17:12:53 avoiding enemies in the environment, well, i'll give you that one, but it's usually either trivial or impossible 17:13:03 not much variety there, just a stylistic choice 17:13:24 myndzi, hm. Also lets you escape even if they notice for slow ones 17:13:28 and i do enjoy being able to choose not to have to screw around with fights constantly, but many games offer you things that let you do that 17:13:46 moogle charm, for example, in ff6 which was one of the original games selected 17:13:52 or whatever it's called 17:14:00 hm what was that one now again 17:14:24 basically, if i felt like it wasn't a poor mix of shmup, brawler, and rpg, i'd like it more 17:14:25 :P 17:14:30 myndzi, thing that annoyed me with ff6 was how you had like 17782367 chars and like 6 in your party and you had to leave most on some airship 17:14:31 but i don't particularly mind it 17:14:39 why so many!? 17:14:39 haha, well 17:14:48 why not make it like 8 or so then 17:14:50 ff6 is nothing 17:14:55 if you are talking about size of cast 17:15:00 myndzi, yes indeed 17:15:01 i forget the name, but there was some game with like hundreds 17:15:12 myndzi, that's just insane 17:15:23 the nature of final fantasy games has enemies in greater numbers than you 17:15:28 and more powerful 17:15:35 because you have the intelligence and a wider variety of skills and strategy 17:15:37 myndzi, there is no way you can level up and use the skills of all those chars 17:15:45 giving you like 20 PCs at once is a little silly 17:15:54 so games don't really do that 17:16:01 myndzi, hm 17:16:05 but the reason for a fairly large cast is to provide characters that appeal to different people 17:16:09 not everyone likes the same party 17:16:25 they might like different characters for story reasons, skill reasons, appearance reasons, whatever 17:16:29 so they can select the ones they like 17:16:39 the airship'd members are just the ones they don't like ;) 17:16:53 myndzi, in general I like something like: one excellent fighter, one or two excellent spell casters, the remaining ones generalists 17:16:55 and unless you're anal retentive like me, many people don't bother to try and keep all party members the same level etc. 17:17:20 sure, but some people like magic a lot, or some people like skull bashers a lot, or some people like LOL RANDOM 17:17:31 myndzi, I do bother until I give up 17:17:36 some people like to hone their party into an efficient fighting force 17:17:41 some people just like to screw around 17:17:43 myndzi, anyway there is a game with hundreds as you mentioned 17:17:46 myndzi, it is called pokemon 17:18:04 and some people devise ridiculous challenges for themselves such as average party level 6 completion of ff6 17:18:04 lol. 17:18:21 so yeah, the extra PCs give some variety and choice to suit different people 17:18:29 and no, pokemon wasn't what i was thinking of 17:18:32 lemme see if i can figure it out 17:18:58 myndzi, it does have hundreds of chars though 17:20:09 suikoden maybe 17:20:24 never heard of that 17:20:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Suikoden_V 17:20:37 > WORDS 17:20:39 Not in scope: data constructor `WORDS' 17:21:00 108 playable characters 17:21:05 myndzi, wow 17:21:14 this may not be what i was thinking of though 17:21:31 myndzi, you might as well give up and let your player roll his own char at that point 17:21:41 myndzi, like in NWN and similar 17:21:43 or nethack 17:21:53 except you can't roll backstory and the like 17:22:00 myndzi, hm true 17:22:18 and while some people are of the kind that like to flesh out their characters like that 17:22:22 others just like to view the story 17:22:25 myndzi, how many cds to fit the backstory of 108 chars though 17:22:49 it's not very many bytes to throw in some dialogue and script programming 17:23:01 myndzi, I was being sarcastic :P 17:23:08 o well 17:24:06 -!- elliott has joined. 17:24:29 elliott, sgeo found out about MS Bob. Read log for hilarious comments. 17:24:49 myndzi, if you would rate the story of the games this discussion began about, how would you rate them? 17:24:52 Vorpal: I always read the log but you have managed to instill a deadly fear for doing so today. 17:25:15 lolwut: Death Spank: Stars of Virtue 17:25:15 elliott, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! 17:25:23 myndzi, what 17:25:27 it's a game 17:25:28 that exists 17:25:30 :P 17:25:32 deathspank is ron gilbert! 17:25:34 myndzi, what sort of game? 17:25:37 an rpg 17:25:37 (creator of monkey island) 17:25:39 i guess 17:25:49 myndzi, I meant... age rating 17:25:59 It's not an, uh, adult game X-D 17:26:05 elliott, *phew* 17:26:05 Well, I assume. 17:26:06 right 17:26:08 I have not actually played it. 17:26:12 not adult 17:26:17 But point is, it's Ron Gilbert and therefore perfect. 17:26:30 google is unhelpful 17:26:32 Vorpal: anyway you are clearly bullshitting, I highly doubt Sgeo didn't know what ms bob was before :P 17:26:33 anyway, re: stories, while i have played all of them, it's been a long time and i tended not to play any of them to completion (though i think i've beat a fair number) 17:26:34 and returns something else 17:26:41 that I do NOT wish to paste 17:26:42 elliott, I had a vague idea 17:26:43 ff6 is one of my faves just because of kefka 17:26:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeathSpank 17:26:51 * Vorpal goes to get the mindbleach 17:26:56 i mean, how can you not love an evil clown guy that gets his kicks by breaking the world? 17:27:07 just don't google for "Death Spank: Stars of Virtue" without quotes 17:27:17 in general i don't actually pay much heed to the "plot" of CRPGs though 17:27:24 chrono trigger is certainly well loved 17:27:30 Vorpal: i only get relevant links 17:27:33 lol swedes 17:27:43 elliott, I don't and I'm not logged into gmail 17:28:21 chrono trigger is certainly well loved <-- indeed. I am replaying it atm. 17:28:28 01:57:54 screw it. Lets try statically linked 17:28:32 statically linking to qt 17:28:34 brilliant 17:28:45 elliott, it turned out it used libdl 17:28:50 elliott, so impossible anyway 17:28:51 yeah i saw 17:28:53 not true 17:28:57 you can statically link libdl i believe 17:29:08 elliott, I believe if you use -static it will break though 17:29:12 which was my first plan 17:29:17 02:45:24 vorpal: i prefer platformers with a kick-ass story 17:29:17 02:45:28 like psychonauts 17:29:20 tim schafer! 17:29:25 libdl works just fine statically on glibc/Linux 17:29:35 my role here is basically to point out when games were made by old kick-ass adventure game guys 17:29:36 Gregor, huh. Okay 17:29:57 In general the .so's you dlopen in have to be statically linked too. 17:30:06 (Schafer = Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, co-designer of MI1, MI2, Day of the Tentacle) 17:30:35 Gregor, can .so be statically linked? 17:30:40 Vorpal: Of course. 17:30:49 oh true 17:30:56 ld.so has to be 17:31:16 07:42:31 * Sgeo wants to try Microsoft Bob 17:31:17 ld.so is a special case by any standards, but still :P 17:31:17 07:45:56 Phantom_Hoover, what do you think about Microsoft Bob? 17:31:17 07:46:08 "XD". 17:31:17 07:46:51 Why? 17:31:17 07:48:21 I was thinking about why I got into Creatures, I thought about Microsoft Agent, wikied, discovered that Microsoft Bob was a predecessor of sorts 17:31:18 07:48:44 And it sounds fun. And a bit like this old Greetings Workshop program I used to have and love 17:31:21 fudsghdfgdf 17:31:23 Vorpal 17:31:25 why couldn't you be lying 17:31:26 ok so i just skimmed the entire list of rpg series on rpgamer 17:31:27 why 17:31:31 suikoden must be the one i was thinking of 17:31:32 :P 17:31:34 elliott, I don't do that. 17:31:37 i don't think any other game has such a dense cast 17:31:39 i swear to god, this is conclusive proof that sgeo has been getting stupider since 2007 17:31:44 but i could be mistaken 17:31:46 myndzi: Suikoden was awesome 17:31:50 this is close to rock bottom 17:32:08 elliott, isn't Microsoft Agent something to do with the office assistant thingy? 17:32:15 Vorpal, yes 17:32:23 why does that involve Creatures? 17:32:27 I don't get it 17:32:31 Vorpal, the word "agent" 17:32:33 the last time i actively played rpgs was on an emulator years ago 17:32:34 it doesn't, read his sentence again 17:32:40 where i tried various PSX rpgs that i rather liked 17:32:40 ah.... 17:32:45 and eventually they crashed my computer 17:32:57 PSX emulation is terrible 17:33:03 it wasn't until later that i determined that it was the fucking silicon image sata controller corrupting my disk images 17:33:15 so, i have a lot of interrupted forays that got reasonably far into various games 17:33:24 in general my long term sticktoitiveness is pretty poor though 17:33:58 08:37:00 3DNA is basically a 3D Microsoft Bob 17:33:59 08:37:05 I once liked 3DNA 17:34:03 ffff 17:34:09 this is painful. 17:34:13 myndzi, n64 never had as good RPGs as snes as far as I remember? 17:34:27 zelda was of course awesome, but that is no RPG 17:34:29 never had an n64 17:34:39 rpgs kinda went from snes to playstation 17:34:44 myndzi, I never did either. 17:34:48 though i think nintendo got some franchises back 17:34:48 N64 never had an awesome anything and all the N64 Zelda games suck foot. 17:34:52 Sgeo, WHYYYYYY 17:34:53 or at least some contributions 17:34:54 Gregor: Mario? 17:34:57 Gregor, HERETIC 17:35:02 heretic was a computer game? 17:35:07 i mean, PC 17:35:08 well there was paper mario 17:35:12 which was quite a fun rpg 17:35:14 that maybe got a shitty console adaptation 17:35:16 I think I got bored because 3DNA was a single-person thing 17:35:29 And it's not like I used it as my desktop regularly 17:35:32 I just had fun 17:35:33 elliott: OK, Super Mario 64 is tolerable. 17:35:34 As a toy 17:35:38 Gregor, Paper Mario! 17:35:42 But not as good as SMW, 3D platformers in general aren't a good idea. 17:35:42 08:42:22 Also related! PostrgreSQL time input accept the string "allballs" as representing the UTC midnight. 17:35:42 08:42:32 Since 00:00:00 is all balls. 17:35:42 I... yes. 17:35:44 Never played Paper Mario :P 17:35:49 Gregor: Have you ever played Super Mario Galaxy? 17:35:53 Gregor, decent but not brilliant RPG 17:35:53 yeah, i'm all for sprite based 2d platformers 17:35:56 Anyone who thinks 3D platformers suck has to play Galaxy. 17:35:59 They will immediately repent. 17:36:04 <3 Galaxy. 17:36:06 I was under the impression that my mom would find it useful though 17:36:07 Gregor: Have you ever played Super Mario Galaxy? <-- it was not N64 though 17:36:11 elliott: I haven't played any games on any system newer than the original Playstation :P 17:36:15 Vorpal: But not as good as SMW, 3D platformers in general aren't a good idea. 17:36:17 Except a rare few at friends house. 17:36:17 Sgeo, *3DNA"???? 17:36:17 see second half of sentence 17:36:24 Such as Muscle March, greatest game ever. 17:36:25 s/"/*/ 17:36:25 gregor, haha, i'm in the same category as you :( 17:36:27 Gregor: Yah, you need to play Galaxy. 17:36:31 there are so many good rpgs to be played too 17:36:35 but the time investment! 17:36:41 Gregor: It is seriously the best. 17:36:41 Phantom_Hoover, http://www.3dna.net/ 17:36:49 Sgeo, I HAVE SEEN IT 17:36:52 IT IS AWFUL 17:37:07 lol 17:37:15 To use for regular computer use, sure. Although I don't think that occured to me when I tried to set it up for my mom 17:37:17 because navigating a 3d environment is so much more EFFICIENT than double clicking icons 17:37:24 can we just 17:37:25 stop feeding sgeo 17:37:26 forever 17:37:30 thanks 17:37:46 To use for regular computer use, sure. Although I don't think that occured to me when I tried to set it up for my mom <-- poor her 17:37:48 right so you know what else i discovered 17:37:49 Phantom_Hoover, this was a while ago, obviously 17:37:55 you can get some of Dat JRPG Vibe just from watching anime 17:38:01 and you don't have to grind for items at all! 17:38:02 ;) 17:38:20 myndzi, har har 17:38:24 my biggest complaint about many rpgs, particularly final fantasy 17:38:38 is that they seem made so that the only way you can really get the most out of them is to buy strategy guides and the like 17:38:49 the best stuff isn't just obtuse it's downright secret sometimes 17:38:50 myndzi, I actually like the RPG bit of it. Not really in FF6. but in games like Chrono Trigger yes 17:39:05 "beat the game in this amount of time, have this character as your main guy in this one scene and that's your only shot at getting his ultimate weapon" 17:39:07 ..yeah, wtf. 17:39:18 err, not beat, but progress through 17:39:18 myndzi, they did that in FF6? 17:39:22 7 i believe 17:39:25 for barrett's 17:39:27 myndzi, wow 17:39:35 myndzi, never played 7 17:39:35 but the trend continues throughout 17:39:45 there are lots of things where you can't just work it out by being smart or getting clues 17:39:55 and they tend to be the things you would enjoy the most 17:39:57 myndzi, anyway you can google to find the info 17:39:59 badass weapons and spells, etc. 17:40:03 yeah, but why should i have to? 17:40:12 myndzi, better than paying 17:40:15 my point isn't that i can find the info, it's that i can't discover it 17:40:27 well, not without a ridiculous amount of work in many cases 17:40:36 hm true 17:40:51 and i already play most of these games from a rather completionist point of view 17:41:00 i feel wrong if i go through a dungeon and don't test every wall ;) 17:41:10 some final fantasy games, including 6, are guilty also of 17:41:19 myndzi, well duh. That is common for a nethack player too :P 17:41:19 "don't get this specific chest, and when you come back later it's something better" 17:41:30 what kind of BS is that? 17:41:50 and how are you supposed to discover something like thatt on your own, even after having played the game and therefore knowing which areas you can come back to? 17:41:51 myndzi, chrono trigger has that though! But it is logical there. You get something from the chest in the future first and then from the old period in time 17:42:01 ha 17:42:07 well that i can forgive a little 17:42:11 myndzi, getting it from the old period first would remove it from the future 17:42:12 but they KNOW that players are like GIMME GIMME :P 17:42:27 still, it's a game about some time travelin so sure 17:42:31 myndzi, it is consistent too over a handful of places 17:42:41 that is acceptable too 17:42:47 i still don't like it that much though 17:42:52 myndzi, mostly those black locked chests you know 17:43:08 this tendency really annoyed me with Cave Story actually 17:43:12 which is an otherwise wonderful game 17:43:17 myndzi, I haven't played that 17:43:19 Phantom_Hoover, can we agree that AS A TOY TO PLAY WITH OCCASIONALLY, 3DNA is not evil? 17:43:19 what is it about? 17:43:27 the only way to get the "good ending" is basically to skip something that is useful and obvious 17:43:35 at least, to be able to attempt to get the good ending ;p 17:43:40 it's a doujin platformer 17:43:51 it's cute and entertaining and also quite difficult if you go for hell mode 17:43:52 doujin? 17:43:59 hmm, i guess indie? 17:44:03 myndzi, nethack hard? 17:44:10 nethack isn't a platformer 17:44:12 apples and oranges 17:44:22 myndzi, fair enough. Nintendo hard then? 17:44:37 i'm no game whiz, but when you make it to hell, let's say that it's comparable in difficulty to IWBTG without as many cheap tricks 17:45:01 IWBTG is all about the cheap tricks, ofc, they're what makes it interesting 17:45:07 haha, right 17:45:17 myndzi, anyway you can compare between genres by comparing percentage of started games that were won :P 17:45:28 well that's the thing 17:45:33 when you have a platformer that you can save in 17:45:37 you don't "start" many games 17:45:41 fair enough 17:45:49 here, i'll link you a video 17:45:57 hard to compare to a game that don't allow you to go back to previous saves 17:46:04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwkquZV-nkY 17:46:06 this is a speed run though 17:46:09 comparing df and nh would be easier 17:46:18 myndzi, tool-assisted? 17:46:22 for the record, i've made it to the end boss, but i got sidetracked by work and never came back 17:46:28 so i haven't technically beaten the game ;p 17:46:37 it doesn't appear to be TAS 17:46:40 it's not an emulated game 17:46:42 it's a PC game 17:47:20 anyway it is a really nice game and you should try it if you like platformers at all 17:47:22 there is an english patch 17:48:01 Vorpal: cave story is good 17:48:11 i haven't completed it but it's really nice 17:48:16 beautiful graphical and musical style 17:48:20 not that hard i wouldn't say 17:48:27 i completed two of three endings 17:48:33 it doesn't get particularly hard unless you want the best ending 17:48:46 and mainly because of the level i linked in that video 17:48:55 which you don't even SEE unless you do the aforementioned crap about skipping an obvious useful item 17:49:01 AND do a couple tricks 17:49:13 that looks to be only a speedrun of one level 17:49:19 correct 17:49:21 the last level 17:49:31 which is what i was talking about 17:49:40 elliott, yeah if you like platformers it look fun 17:50:30 lol @ ultratapping 17:51:06 Vorpal: Well, it has a plot, if you care so much about that. :p 17:51:21 that too haha 17:51:32 and a cute robot girl! 17:51:33 :P 17:51:35 elliott, good but I prefer the depth of the story when interacting with NPCs in a well written RPG 17:51:53 Vorpal: It has tons of NPCs to interact with. :p 17:52:03 elliott, and it's a platformer? really? huh 17:52:04 I'd say it's even a platformer/RPG hybrid. 17:52:11 elliott, sounds interesting 17:52:15 not a whole lot of RPG to it, but yeah 17:52:18 elliott, do you mean hybrid like super mario rpg? 17:52:19 it's more like a 'metroid rpg' 17:52:26 Vorpal: Not that hybrid. 17:52:27 where you get upgrades to your life and weaponry 17:52:31 elliott, right 17:52:32 Hey cool, there's a Linux port. 17:52:34 http://shii.org/pixel/linuxdoukutsu-1.01.tar.bz2 17:52:42 elliott, but it is very strange for a snes game, don't you agree? 17:52:47 Vorpal: I haven't played it. 17:52:57 elliott, ah... It is isomeric 17:53:06 "Your experience with the Linux port is, unfortunately, the same as mine. It's not your netbook at fault; the Linux port doesn't seem to be very well optimized. I found Wine to be the way to go as well." 17:53:11 http://shii.org/pixel/cavestory.zip then. :p 17:53:14 elliott, that alone makes it strange for a snes era platform-rpg hybrid 17:53:27 it's not an snes game 17:53:34 it's a fairly recent PC game 17:53:38 myndzi, I didn't say that 17:53:44 myndzi, I said that about super mario rpg 17:53:47 ah 17:54:05 elliott, maybe later. Playing chrono trigger atm 17:54:22 anyway, interacting with npcs eh... maybe another vote for suikoden ;) 17:54:30 npcs / pcs / whatever 17:54:36 I've always loved the author's description: 17:54:37 seems like it should have a lot of breadth at least 17:54:37 "Cave Story is a jumping-and-shooting action game. 17:54:37 Explore the caves until you reach the ending. 17:54:37 You can also save your game and continue from where you left off." 17:54:37 myndzi, lots of npcs too? 17:54:47 lol elliott 17:54:48 nice 17:54:49 elliott, is zzo behind it+ 17:54:54 s/+/?/ 17:54:54 Vorpal: No, the Japs are. 17:54:58 Vorpal: i was thinking more like pcs = "in depth npcs" 17:54:58 Okay, one Jap. 17:55:01 elliott, I meant the last line! 17:55:09 myndzi, hm 17:55:10 since you can interact with them moreso than you could npcs in normal console rpgs 17:55:36 myndzi, well pc to me, means one you can have in your party and can control in battle and so on 17:55:45 you might also enjoy Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which is an anime series but is epic and awesome ;) 17:55:55 Vorpal: yeah, suikoden is the one with like a hundred PCs 17:55:57 myndzi, mhm 17:55:58 now to continue on worriedly with the logs 17:56:14 elliott, it gets better after. Less sgeo. 17:56:14 but the point of it is that each of them is a different 'character' and they have their own plot situations and stuff, i think 17:56:16 note: i haven't played it 17:56:22 ais523: FINALLY YOU ARE HERE 17:56:23 jesus 17:56:25 been waiting 17:56:26 N fucking days 18:01:40 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 18:01:40 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:11:44 http://notalwaysright.com/her-banking-days-are-numbered/10397 this is a validation failure 18:22:24 the system successfully failed to recognize an invalid account number :D 18:23:03 wat 18:23:10 <__moz> As to the 'phone warning, I was surprised to find that it wasn't solely due to people using a microwave to dry their 'phones out after getting them wet. Some people genuinely believe that a microwave could recharge the battery, and at least one of those has discovered that a 'phone doesn't work so well once you let the (thick black) magic smoke out. 18:23:26 a TDWTF quote that reminded me of Sgeo, or more specifically the sort of people he seems to be surrounded with 18:25:12 * Sgeo ponders a battery charger that could work like that. Certainly it's possible with other frequencies on the EM spectrum (solar panels) 18:25:31 plenty off stuff is charged through induction 18:26:13 ais523: and now you're REALLY HERE 18:26:14 e.g. waterproof electric toothbrushes 18:26:34 elliott: indeed, although I might disappear a bit in a while 18:26:39 ais523: I have written an Underload interpreter smarter than derlo. That optimises Church numerals. 18:26:43 I was trying to avoid someone at work, so I was turning up only when necessary 18:26:49 elliott: yay, it had to be done eventually 18:27:16 ais523: Me and oerjan had agreed that if you responded to that question with "oh, I wrote one of those too, but never told anyone about it", you would be banned. :P 18:27:20 NARROWLY AVOIDED 18:27:38 Anyway it's written in Haskell but I'm half rewriting it in C every now and then. 18:27:50 hey, there are limits to my Underload-related prescience 18:28:01 I think derlo is probably _faster_ for most programs, but anything involving heavy use of Church numerals will probably do okay. 18:28:07 Unless it does addition. I'm not sure it handles addition. 18:28:16 But it does use oerjan's insanely overcomplicated algorithm for detecting Church numeral literals. 18:28:35 ais523: here's the code if you want to take a peek: http://sprunge.us/YGiM 18:28:54 ais523: including the best line ever 18:28:56 where eq = I# (reallyUnsafePtrEquality# p q) == 1 18:29:13 reallyUnsafePtrEquality# 18:29:27 does that do something like, um, compare pointers in the underlying representation of its arguments? 18:29:27 reallyUnsafePtrEquality# :: a -> a -> Int# 18:29:31 Yes. 18:29:40 And returns an unboxed int. 18:29:48 Which I then box with I#, and compare to 1. 18:30:11 ais523: In fact I think it's even possible that (reallyUnsafePtrEquality# x x) is 0#. 18:30:15 so it basically returns false if two things are different, and an unspecified value if the things are the same 18:30:15 With GHC, I mean. 18:30:32 ais523: It returns either 0# or 1#. 18:30:40 unspecified 0# or 1#, then 18:30:43 ais523: If it returns 1#, the two things are the same. 18:30:50 Otherwise, anything is possible. 18:30:58 yep, that's what I said just in reverse 18:30:59 p == q = eq || p' == q' 18:30:59 where eq = I# (reallyUnsafePtrEquality# p q) == 1 18:30:59 Quote p' = toQ p 18:31:01 Quote q' = toQ q 18:31:06 I just do it because toQ is sloooow. 18:31:11 toQ :: Obj -> Obj 18:31:11 toQ (Church _ p) = p 18:31:11 toQ (Catn p q) = Quote (xs++ys) where Quote xs = toQ p; Quote ys = toQ q 18:31:11 toQ (Rept n p) = Quote $ concat (genericReplicate n p') where Quote p' = toQ p 18:31:13 toQ x = x 18:31:21 Hmm, that's broken 18:31:23 should be = toQ p 18:31:39 ais523: I also wrote an Underload test suite, just because nobody gets * right 18:31:54 and oerjan has been working on minimisation like usual 18:32:11 I have to go for a while, but I'll stay connected and be back in a while 18:32:24 OK 18:32:24 ais523: http://sprunge.us/fLWW 18:32:27 There's the link to burden.ul FWIW 18:33:11 ais523: For when you get back, note that the channel's topic is now officially http://esolangs.org/wiki/CRTL. 18:35:30 today i have become less convinced that :()^ isn't TC. 18:36:07 but if it is it looks tricky to achieve 18:36:35 oerjan: oh dear 18:37:18 basically i think it's somewhat possible a self-deleting representation like the one for :()^~ could be made to work 18:40:38 and if so the two-counter minsky machine for :()^! could be ported 18:42:05 oerjan: maybe each quotation looks at the TOS and uses that to decide whether to delete itself or to execute? 18:42:32 but it looks like representing PQ would be tricky. i had a representation idea that would work simply for PQ but which cannot possibly work for quotes 18:42:41 TOS? 18:42:41 pq? 18:42:45 top of stack 18:42:55 a concatenation of two terms 18:43:22 if you know how to represent each of them, how do you represent their concatenation 18:43:59 Sgeo: yes, ats does have compile-time error support for that. 18:44:26 thankfully ats has way too much type theory for pikhq to ever udnerstand it. 18:44:27 elliott, off-by-ones in general, or that specific case of an off-by-one? 18:45:07 elliott, when you say that, don't you usually mean me? 18:45:34 looking at the TOS is pretty obvious. the problem with :()^ is how to _get_ something you choose to be on the top of stack when you run the quotation. 18:46:15 good point :D 18:46:16 but there's one thing you can do, :^ runs the quotation with a copy of itself on top of stack 18:46:17 Phantom_Hoover, can we agree that AS A TOY TO PLAY WITH OCCASIONALLY, 3DNA is not evil 18:46:18 NO 18:46:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 18:46:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:46:38 Effing tabs. 18:46:42 Sgeo: Yes, it uses strong ai to detect every off-by-one possible. 18:46:45 Anyway, THE CONCEPT IS FUNDAMENTALLY EVIL 18:49:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:53:44 Phantom_Hoover, even Bonzi Buddy can be a fun toy if isolated to where it can't harm anything 18:54:10 Sgeo, are you incapable of hating crap 18:54:12 *? 18:54:51 Isn't there something I despised once? 18:54:58 Forget the name... 18:55:12 Progress? 18:55:18 Change? 18:56:16 Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo even supported the Asylum project, which was designed to "make building software from svn easier". The genius concept behind this was to take a normal shell script, and wrap it in fake xml , , ..., because the project lead had no idea how to read lines sequentially from a file. 18:56:33 (Okay, so he posted that to the Daily WTF, but he still got to the point of joining the IRC channel and volunteering to help.) 18:56:43 What. 18:56:58 :) 18:58:58 Sgeo: I'm afraid you have a defective hate lobe. 18:59:04 We're going to have to operate. 18:59:34 I'm not psychic! How was I supposed to know that the person would be an idiot! 19:00:07 The entire concept was stupid! 19:01:11 Sgeo has a defective brain lobe. 19:01:22 Like I said, he's been getting progressively stupider over the period of many slow years. 19:01:47 (Note: I have, in fact, tried "being nice" in the past, to little success.) 19:02:07 elliott, Asylum wasn't recent 19:02:57 pikhq, I joined up because someone from Circe did, I think! 19:10:48 this Asylum thing looks ... useful 19:11:12 olsner: it's like a shell script but useless! 19:13:07 print "\nhere comes uncompressing of the source this takes about 1 minute and 10 seconds. Please be patient" 19:13:49 olsner, you found the Asylum source? 19:13:53 Lemme see, I'm nostalgic 19:13:57 (No I'm not) 19:14:13 http://asylum.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/asylum/trunk/ 19:14:34 olsner: :-D 19:14:36 this wasn't xml though, just python 19:15:02 olsner, I was told we would need to make an XML parser 19:15:44 of course! python is not enough to poorly emulate shell scripts, you need an XML parser too 19:16:14 "Special thanks to: The people at #python at irc.freenode.net for their advice" 19:16:35 Too bad their advice never included "Just stop. Right now." 19:16:48 hmm, #python was involved? that would explain a lot of how bad it turned out 19:17:22 does anyone use python as a sh replacement? 19:17:26 like people do with perl sometimes? 19:17:35 ais523: yes 19:17:39 ouch 19:17:51 hmm, random thought: rafb.net/p/ getting deleted has affected me more than geocities 19:17:56 "Well the purpose of this script is to build Songbirds svn source just by running this script. Including downloading and doing all the steps that are needed to get it installed 19:17:57 20and working on your linux box." 19:18:05 seriously dude, shut down your IMMENSELY POPULAR pastebin if you want to but don't delete all the damn pastes 19:18:21 admittedly rafb used to delete pastes after one day by default iirc which is terrible too :/ 19:18:24 elliott, wait, what the hell was the point of Asylum? 19:18:28 Phantom_Hoover: NOBODY KNOWS. 19:18:32 "We are working on making asylum work for all svn open source projects. instead of just python.... 19:18:32 41 It should happen sometime soon." 19:18:45 ...I think they meant Songbird there 19:19:16 I don't expect pastebin pastes to persist 19:19:18 because they don't 19:19:28 elliott, where's the Daily WTF post for it? 19:19:37 Phantom_Hoover: ... stop being Vorpal 19:19:46 (assuming omniscience) 19:20:01 elliott, I never mentioned "Asylum" in the post 19:20:05 http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/4361/99979.aspx 19:20:05 elliott, I did try Googling it, but it's hard to pin down 19:20:08 ais523: no, but I have put plenty of code up on a pastebin, lost the code carelessly, and then have been unable to retrieve it later :) 19:20:14 Phantom_Hoover: ask Sgeo, duh; he's the one who posted it 19:20:25 ais523: I don't see why pastebin pastes _shouldn't_ persist, anyway 19:20:27 wow, someone actually edited the sandbox 19:20:48 elliott, YES OK 19:20:52 ais523, which sandbox? 19:20:56 ais523: oh, err, zzo ...found... your language 19:20:56 Esolang's 19:21:00 it's rare that that one's changed 19:21:03 What. 19:21:04 in case you haven't checked the talk page lately. 19:21:12 elliott: he found it in-channel first 19:21:17 indeed 19:21:21 wait, have you been logreading? 19:21:24 like, in realtime? 19:21:25 it's interesting to see the zzo spin on things 19:21:28 and no, I was here at the time 19:21:31 oh 19:22:02 ais523, it can be, but unfortunately the incessant "USE CWEB" and "PLAY MY GAMES" makes it more worthwhile just to ignore him. 19:22:30 you can't just ignore zzo38! you'd lose a vital part of Internet culture! 19:22:48 (seriously, you can go to a random channel and mention zzo38 and there are people who have heard of him) 19:22:55 I am on here right now, in case you have questions that I would need to answer, and whatever 19:23:19 (seriously, you can go to a random channel and mention zzo38 and there are people who have heard of him) 19:23:22 I'm tempted to try this 19:23:33 but I think it may just be cognitive bias on your part, ais523 :P 19:23:37 zzo38 is world-famous. 19:23:41 (i.e. you only enter channels that are likely to have heard of zzo38) 19:23:51 elliott: hmm, perhaps 19:24:04 also, it was quite a large channel 19:24:07 * elliott tries it in #esoteric-minecraft 19:24:15 ais523: wasn't it #nethack? i think you said that 19:24:23 HAS ANYONE HEAR HEARD OF ZZO38 19:24:23 NOPE 19:24:24 Darn 19:24:26 Try it, I do not know how well it is going to work but you can try, and even write a report if you want to about the statistics you get from it. 19:24:30 which a) increases the chance that someone's there who's heard of him, b) increases the chance that someone's there who has his name on highlight 19:24:42 elliott: also, #tasvideos 19:24:51 which doesn't have a large overlap with #esoteric (I think just me and Ilari) 19:26:00 well zzo38 does ZZT stuff doesn't he? 19:26:04 I'd expect an overlap with that and TASing 19:26:12 Yes I have done ZZT stuff. 19:26:21 And also MegaZeux. 19:26:29 -!- vovten has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:26:37 that looks like it's pronounced megasucks 19:27:11 olsner: Not quite. 19:27:48 ais523: I wrote a note in the [[Talk:Checkout]] page, can you read this note please? 19:28:00 zzo38: I read it, I just couldn't think of anything to say in response 19:28:27 haha 19:28:41 ais523: here's a factoid you'll like: Template Haskell, a macro system for Haskell, does gensym with a monad 19:28:45 and still can't, in fact 19:29:17 I apologise for my lack of imagination 19:29:26 elliott: well, monads are pretty basic in Haskell 19:29:52 it's just amusing to think of gensym as referentially transparent and therefore requiring a monad 19:30:29 OK. Currently it does not actually have the list of commands and their numbers, but do you think what I wrote is sufficient? Is there anything wrong with it? If I ever write a emulator I would make it use the binary format as input, probably. 19:31:04 it's more that I didn't think of the concept of using a binary format with Checkout at all 19:31:14 although it makes sense that individual emulators, and individual GPUs, would have one 19:31:49 Yes the GPU has its own binary format. This binary format I made is just a kind of intermediate binary format. 19:32:07 It is possible to convert between the standard Checkout text format and this binary format. 19:32:34 I thought of using /7 for the preprocessor, btw, but it wouldn't really fit 19:32:47 I might use /- to make it clear that it's completely different from actual execution 19:32:56 (the preprocessor isn't designed yet, but one is obviously necessary) 19:34:09 Yes you are right. However, the /7 in the binary format is just used to specify how it is encoded, when converted to text format the /7 is not actually there. 19:34:27 remember TkTech who was in here a while ago? 19:34:57 no 19:35:02 oh, it was after PH incredibly-transparently impersonated Notch in #minecraft, got banned, and TkTech got an IRCop friend to abuse his position of power to figure out what channels PH was in 19:35:03 (that's in response to elliott) 19:35:12 which, obviously, didn't exactly endear him to us 19:35:18 why would PH do that? 19:35:41 it seems sufficiently against Freenode rules that ircops would be allowed to get involved if they really wanted to regardless 19:35:49 ais523: Err, long story, but suffice to say that he didn't act even vaguely seriously and didn't even bother changing his ident, but got insanely worshipped anyway 19:35:56 also, Notch isn't a registered username 19:35:56 also, presumably they might check if he was in here and impersonating, say, Chris Pressey or maybe Graue 19:36:14 ais523: it wasn't an "official" thing, though 19:36:29 We asked how the hell he found this place and he said he had links with ircop friends. 19:36:46 is the upshot of this, that much of #minecraft is idiotic enough to believe an obvious troll is their glorious implementor? 19:36:59 also, technically it should be ##minecraft if Notch isn't involved in it 19:37:02 Indeed 19:37:26 ais523: Yes; what I was going to follow on with was that TkTech is now hilariously whois-stalking someone in #minecraft for no apparent reason whatsoever and being all accusatory, but if nobody here remembers him it's irrelevant 19:37:33 (Vorpal eventually got him to go away by complaining loudly about his away-message script) 19:37:51 -!- Vonlebio has joined. 19:37:59 elliott: that works? 19:38:08 ais523: what, complaining? 19:38:15 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Client Quit). 19:38:23 complaining about away messages as a means to get someone to leave a channel 19:38:32 normally it just gets them to turn their public away messages off 19:38:33 well, he hadn't talked for most of the day, and then his away-nick script kicked in, and Vorpal just kept pinging him about how annoying it is until he got fed up and left 19:39:08 ooh, looks like TkTech is abusing his oper friends again to get dirt on this random guy in #minecraft 19:39:10 classy! 19:39:13 s/^ // 19:39:57 perhaps he's an undercover oper himself? 19:40:05 ais523: do those /exist/? 19:40:17 wow TkTech is insane 19:40:29 I know on Slashnet, there are people who come into channels you're in and spout random languages just as a result of you /whoising them 19:40:35 (I haven't done it myself, but other people have) 19:40:40 well, one person 19:40:44 he's gone on to yelling at PH like he's the devil himself for calling the cyberstalking creepy 19:41:00 people would yell at the devil? it wouldn't seem very effective... 19:41:02 ais523: heh, /whois notification? 19:41:32 Gregor: You should add the codu logs to robots.txt. :p 19:41:37 the server tells clients when their user is being whois:ed? 19:41:39 elliott: he's an ircop, I assume he has some way of knowing he's being /whoised 19:41:42 ais523: ah 19:41:46 perhaps hooked into the ircd code 19:41:47 elliott: *eh* 19:41:50 there's no way he could do it otherwise 19:41:56 Gregor: They're a liability :P 19:42:55 I'm really tempted to bring up the fact that the channel should have two #s in front of its name, but he'd just snap back that so should #esoteric, and he's been here longer than me, and I'm evil scum, and shut up. 19:43:09 well, does #esoteric have rights to the name? 19:43:21 ais523: more than #minecraft 19:43:31 ais523: especially since we vastly predate the policy; #minecraft definitely does not 19:43:46 I could pretty easily put a message in an admin-change-only page in Esolang, which is pretty much Freenode's standard for verification 19:43:46 http://esolangs.org/wiki/PREFIX I like the part where this isn't esoteric at all 19:43:52 We do represent the de facto body for esolang research and development. 19:43:56 but I'm not sure if esolangs.org would have rights to the name 19:44:00 that would be an argument for #esolang, not #esoteric 19:44:08 esoteric.voxelperfect.net? 19:44:15 as far as I'm concerned this is the official IRC channel of the esoteric programming language community :D 19:44:19 (whatever that is) 19:44:19 ais523: I'll go register hello.sfoidjfoisdjfo.org 19:44:23 and register #hello 19:44:24 or maybe the 19:44:27 or er 19:44:28 "and" 19:44:33 or maybe "microsoft-windows" 19:44:41 elliott: well, I don't know if hello.org would give you rights to #hello either 19:44:56 would you think python.com should have rights to #python? 19:45:06 ais523: yes! 19:45:14 (note: python.com is rather different from python.org; some of my friends at University go there by mistake every now and then) 19:45:21 (note: this opinion is influenced by disliking Python and _hating_ #python) 19:45:34 ((worst channel ever... ok apart from every efnet channel)) 19:46:01 For anyone who still cares about Phantom_Hoover, here's the chatlog from his blatant trolling attempt 19:46:15 TkTech> For anyone who still cares about Phantom_Hoover, here's the chatlog from his blatant trolling attempt 19:46:15 https://codu.org/projects/trac/esotericlogs/changeset/243%3A17617b496c58 19:46:18 Yeah, that's creepy. 19:46:30 wait, blatant trolling in #esoteric? 19:46:40 ais523: no, the #minecraft stuff was mentioned in #esoteric when it happened 19:46:43 it's happened, but it's not normally PH who's doing it 19:46:44 elliott: ah 19:46:48 TkTech: so how many kicks a day would you say you get on average from pointless, confusing cyberstalking and witchhunts? 19:46:49 arithmetic mean would do, or median 19:46:53 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to TkTech 19:46:53 * TkTech sets ban on *!*elliott@unaffiliated/elliott 19:46:53 * TkTech sets ban on *!*phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 19:46:53 * You have been kicked from #minecraft by TkTech (elliott) 19:46:54 ais523, NORMALLY? 19:47:04 /o/ 19:47:04 | 19:47:05 /| 19:47:16 yep, people do report trolling attempts in #esoteric sometimes 19:47:28 which is strange because a) it's publicly logged, and b) I'm here and dislike that sort of thing 19:47:31 ais523, I haven't trolled here... 19:47:35 although I can't do much except yell incoherently 19:47:42 FFS, codu.org won't load. 19:47:46 20:20 < elliott_> this channel should be ##minecraft 19:47:46 20:20 -!- mode/#minecraft [+b *!*elliott@91.104.239.*] by TkTech 19:47:46 20:20 -!- elliott_ was kicked from #minecraft by TkTech [elliott_] 19:47:46 is it against freenode TOS to ban someone for reporting a policy violation? 19:47:46 Gregor, FIX 19:47:50 Phantom_Hoover: in which case, it's true that trolls here aren't usually you, because they aren't ever you 19:47:53 just curious 19:47:59 elliott: I don't know, I'll checl 19:48:02 *check 19:48:15 also, is Minecraft open source? 19:48:21 -!- TLUL has joined. 19:48:28 ais523: no 19:48:30 if not, that's a vaguely obvious policy vio 19:48:35 Phantom_Hoover: ... uhh, E_WORKSFORME 19:48:35 as in, wrong network for the channel 19:48:39 ais523: untrue, ##windows is accepted 19:48:44 just, it has to be a ##-channel 19:49:02 -!- Vonlebio has joined. 19:49:08 ##windows makes sense, in that open source stuff often needs to know about Windows in order to work well 19:49:19 ais523: well, mcmap is open source! 19:49:22 and needs to know about Minecraft! 19:49:31 Sgeo: olsner: 19:49:32 17# So yeah This part will speed up the code to the point of being the same as compiled C or such. If you plan to use this script alot 19:49:32 18# I recommend you downloading and installing it. You can grab it here http://psyco.sf.net. So install that shit and be done with :-p 19:49:33 --Asylum 19:49:39 elliott: that's a reasonable argument 19:49:43 Psyco totally speeds up os.system. 19:49:46 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to redditalien 19:49:46 * redditalien removes channel operator status from TkTech 19:49:52 I sense DRAMA 19:50:07 Phantom_Hoover: how are you watching what's going on? as Vonlebio? 19:50:23 heh this is ridiculous, tktech has gone utterly nuts 19:50:24 ais523, yep. 19:50:54 Will notify as events unfold, if they actually do. 19:51:00 this is getting wildly off-topic 19:51:06 Do it in #esoteric-minecraft instead :P 19:51:35 elliott: there are quite a lot of rules for single-# channels, determining what's allowed, what's more allowed than others in case there's a conflict, and what definitely isn't 19:51:49 elliott: psyco will totally speed up make and tar when they're called from python 19:51:54 olsner: yes! 19:51:57 -!- Vonlebio has left (?). 19:51:59 "Groups on freenode which clearly do not have claim on a name, or whose activities are considered to be off-topic, will not generally be given administrative control over primary channels bearing a given name or name prefix." is the only rule that definitively says you can't get a single-# 19:52:17 ais523: I think #minecraft is probably never going to be acted against because it's big 19:52:32 also, because TkTech would just be all "I GOOGLED THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT AND THEY HAVE TIES TO PH AND ELLIOTT, EVIL PERSISTENT TROLLS" 19:52:33 Wait, that's a double-whammy against us 19:52:36 "HERE ARE LOG LINKS:" 19:53:11 for #esoteric, we count as "Informal FOSS community projects and other projects producing broadly-licensed output.", I think; we can be beaten to the name by groups in that category who've used the name for longer (are there any longer-lasting esoteric programming groups?), or by " 1. Non-govermental organizations, standards organizations, government entities, formal news organizations, corporations, businesses and individuals with legally valid 19:53:13 claims." 19:53:37 well, cpressey adopted the term esoteric for esolangs 19:53:43 but esoteric was in use previously to mean some subtle but important detail 19:53:58 e.g., "the working of the database flogger under conditions of intense load is somewhat esoteric; ..." 19:53:59 so IOW, we're allowed to use #esoteric, our "informal" name, so long as there isn't a legal claim to the name by someone else 19:54:03 yep 19:54:09 cpressey, at least, has "endorsed" this channel for the esolang purpose by being in here 19:54:11 also, cpressey isn't, by himself, a community, although he's getting there 19:54:14 and e.g., "the working of the database flogger under conditions of intense load is somewhat esoteric; ..." 19:54:17 is just a generic term 19:54:20 which you can't really "own" 19:54:27 yep, and which doesn't count as the name of a community 19:54:30 so I think as far as esoteric has a vaguely FOSS-related meaning as a community, we're it 19:54:43 yep, as long as we produce broadly-licensed output 19:54:55 which we do, with PD wiki edits and interpreters under a wide range of open source licenses 19:54:58 can cat's eye technology claim the #esoteric name for us if required? 19:55:14 olsner: cpressey has been in here since 2004 or so 19:55:15 on and off 19:55:20 which is close enough to an endorsement as we'd need 19:55:42 hmm, I think the claim actually goes to esoteric.sange.fi, the mailing list 19:55:47 assuming it exists enough to demand it 19:55:54 ais523: I disagree 19:55:59 being the oldest esolangs community with the word "esoteric" in its name 19:56:02 ais523: they stole the term from cpressey :) 19:56:05 (it predates the wiki, doesn't it?) 19:56:10 elliott: it's not about the ownership of the name 19:56:11 err, yes, by a long shot 19:56:11 hmm 19:56:14 is that mailing list still alive? 19:56:17 ais523: I wonder where Befunge-97 and the like were designed? 19:56:19 it's about the length of time you've been in a community with that name 19:56:22 olsner: heck no 19:56:31 olsner: it delivers a lot of spam, and every year or two, a "IS THIS THING STILL ON" message 19:56:39 who ran esoteric.sange.fi anyway? 19:56:42 some of the lists can't even be subscribed to thanks to bitrotting software 19:56:49 ais523: that's a good question 19:56:49 elliott: ok, good thing I'm not on it then :) 19:56:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:57:07 it could be fun to all suddenly revive it some point and act as if nothing had happened 19:57:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:57:56 -!- elliott has set topic: «Tra átekidáwakin» trakidawakin. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 19:58:02 well, if it's been dead for years, I'd say that nothing *has* happened :) 19:58:08 no acting required 19:58:26 haha 19:58:34 I mean, as if it had been used all along 19:59:29 could populate the archive with some fakes, reply to the threads, act confused when people complain about not having seen the e-mail you're replying to 19:59:43 I just /whois'd TkTech; let's see if he enters here! 20:00:43 I do not need worry about the Freenode policies too much for my own projects because I put the channels in my own computer (and I am the only one who can 'register' channels, meaning that they exist when empty, have topic message, and are logged). Although, I am still probably not violating Freenode policies, but I put it in my own computer anyways (one feature it has is automatic logging by server). 20:01:17 I don't think Freenode much care about what your own IRC server's rules are 20:02:26 You are correct, they probably don't care. What I meant is that even if I did make the channels on Freenode, it would not be against their policy. 20:03:12 can you stop a channel appearing in /list? 20:03:16 +s hides it from whois 20:03:30 ah 20:03:31 +s does it 20:05:03 HELP CMODE tells you all the channel modes. 20:07:34 anyway, on to more fun things 20:07:55 Relevant to what was being discussed a few minutes back: http://sprunge.us/VENB 20:07:59 ais523: I've attempted to extend bitwise operations to the full Z 20:08:07 ais523: for a turing-complete OISC 20:08:08 based on NAND 20:08:12 obviously, ~x = -x - 1 20:08:28 how are you going to do bitshift-equivalents? 20:08:34 AND, OR and XOR are all pretty obvious, well, except (negative xor positive) 20:08:36 erm 20:08:39 negative xor negative, that is 20:08:41 which turns into positive 20:08:48 because negative integers start with infinite 1s 20:08:57 ais523: erm, you can just do them directly, can't you? 20:09:11 oh, you said nand-based 20:09:17 I thought that implied it didn't do anything else 20:09:28 ais523: oh, right 20:09:36 ais523: I'm not entirely sure how it's going to work yet 20:09:37 I was thinking 20:09:41 IP is at location 0 20:09:53 you load up memory space, which is just a finite list of Zs 20:09:53 we need a ZISC 20:09:57 and the instruction is 20:10:03 (a1,a2,a3) => [a1] = [a2] NAND [a3] 20:10:04 *:= 20:10:06 but I have no idea if that even makes sense 20:10:10 so three literal addresses 20:10:17 i.e. 20:10:25 (a1,a2,a3) => [a1] := -([a2] AND [a3]) - 1 20:11:18 ais523: I'm not sure NAND is so "universal" with infinite bits, though 20:11:29 I think I did mov 20:11:55 hmm, the BBC's technology program just explained that "OS X", as in the Apple operating system, is pronounced like the letter X not the number 10 because it's based on UNIX 20:12:02 I'm not sure whether to believe them or not 20:12:06 tmp dst dst 20:12:07 src dst dst 20:12:07 src src src 20:12:07 dst tmp tmp 20:12:08 there, that's mov 20:12:24 NAND's only universal if logical; bitwise NAND isn't 20:12:24 I'd say it's pronounced like the letter X because it's written with the letter X 20:12:27 ais523: It's pronounced "Mac OS Ten" officially. 20:12:35 their reasoning is... bizarre 20:12:44 olsner: Apple always pronounces it Ten, at least. 20:12:46 Roman numeral X. 20:12:50 apparently someone sent them an email complaining about their pronunciation 20:12:50 Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9, Mac OS X. 20:13:07 and that's the explanation they gave for it 20:13:11 ais523: "Knoll's Law of Media Accuracy: Everything you read in the newspapers is absolutely true except for that rare story of which you happen to have firsthand knowledge." 20:13:22 haha 20:14:27 elliott: please apply this OISC design to the 2-adic numbers 20:14:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:15:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:15:50 Maybe they used X because of both ten and because of UNIX. 20:15:50 quintopia: that's basically what i've done 20:15:57 > (-1) `xor` (-2) :: Integer 20:15:57 doesn't 2-adic have ...111111110 = -2? 20:15:58 1 20:16:01 oerjan: haha, nice 20:16:30 > 1 `xor` 2 20:16:31 Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraint: 20:16:31 `Data.Bits.Bits a' 20:16:31 a... 20:16:34 elliott: obviously 20:16:35 > 1 `xor` 2 :: Integer 20:16:36 3 20:16:41 oerjan: right, just checking 20:16:53 anyway 20:16:57 I'm not _sure_ it can do negation 20:17:08 elliott: it looked like you were using 2 20:17:10 well not is -1-x 20:17:12 2's complement 20:17:13 or even increment 20:17:18 > 523 `xor` -1 :: Integer 20:17:21 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 20:17:22 quintopia: well, yes, but on infinite bits 20:17:24 same thing, no? 20:17:29 ais523: XORING IS VERY DIFFICULT 20:17:33 > 523 `xor` (-1) :: Integer 20:17:34 -524 20:17:42 well, for one, there is no decimal :P 20:17:50 well yes 20:18:02 hmm... 20:18:09 what's x & (-x - 1)? 20:18:16 > 523 `xor` (-524) :: Integer 20:18:19 -1 20:18:28 er 20:18:29 that's xor 20:18:30 elliott: um the bitwise operations can only do things that depend only on that bit positions in the arguments for which you are trying to calculate the bit position in the result. increment does not fulfil this property, nor does negation. 20:18:37 > 523 .&. (-524) :: Integer 20:18:39 0 20:18:43 oerjan: right, but you can do jumps 20:18:46 IP is at location 0 20:19:41 oerjan: and increment is just xor with carry :P 20:19:51 fsvo xor, carry 20:21:07 good luck incrementing -1 20:21:14 gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult 20:21:16 oerjan: GOT A BETTER OISC? 20:21:22 `addquote gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult 20:21:51 elliott: the mathematical models of concurrent algol are simpler than those of non-concurrent algol, as they have fewer restrictions so there's less to say 20:22:05 ais523: yes, I was just addquoting because it's funny :) 20:22:25 319) gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult 20:22:48 grr, it's vaguely annoying to be pinged a second time when HackEgo repeats the quote 20:22:59 the first time is enough, the second time adds no new info but the number and HackEgo's reaction time 20:26:07 I wonder how Erlang's SDL bindings are... 20:26:19 YOU MENTIONED A LANGUAGE, CLEARLY YOU ARE TURNING INTO ME 20:26:28 elliott: ... surely not better than SDL itself 20:26:41 olsner: I mean as far as threading goes. 20:26:47 Erlang uses native threads, but it divides green threads between them. 20:27:01 So can the SDL bindings run asynchronously, so that network activity can still take place during expensive calls? 20:27:33 I guess the natural thing is to do something like dedicate a new native thread to SDL and an erlang wrapper process 20:27:44 elliott: to add to the fun, SDL has its own threading library 20:27:54 olsner: That's a strange definition of natural if you ask me. 20:28:07 Admittedly SDL calls aren't exactly _expensive_. 20:28:18 But still, Minecraft could totally be less responsive if the proxying gets interrupted! 20:28:21 erlang, you know, does things with threads and stuff 20:28:45 olsner: Yes. Green threads. 20:28:58 olsner: SDL does not use Erlang green threads. 20:29:01 SDL calls will therefore block. 20:29:06 Yes, Erlang can run threads on multiple cores. 20:29:06 why would you use Erlang + SDL for Minecraft? 20:29:09 But relying on that seems ridiculous. 20:29:24 ais523: I'm considering rewriting mcmap in Erlang to learn the language and also to make mcmap hacking a bit... nicer for me. 20:29:40 ais523: It uses SDL to... display the map. 20:29:53 And receives things from the client and server, and sends things to the client and server (it's a proxy). 20:29:58 And uses readline on the console. 20:30:59 ais523: Does that answer your question? :p 20:31:46 yep 20:31:53 reinventing the wheel for fun 20:32:00 I suppose that's what #esoteric is all about 20:32:01 09:00:08 * ais523 finally got UMIX compiled 20:32:01 09:00:31 the program at the heart of the 2006 ICFP 20:32:01 09:00:47 it needs double-bootstrapping to compile, and you have to write the interpreter yourself 20:32:01 The 2006 ICFP contest seems crazy, what with that 2D language inside. 20:32:06 That you have to write a ray tracer in. 20:32:18 ais523: well, it's more like a port than reinventing the wheel; mcmap is developed by fizzie and me 20:32:25 2006 was the best ICFP contest ever 20:32:36 and 2007 the worst, no? 20:32:38 when's the 2010 contest, btw? 20:32:42 apparently it tried too hard to be like the 2006 one and failed 20:32:45 ais523: err, it's 2011 now 20:32:49 err, right 20:32:52 when's the 2011 contest? 20:32:59 in 2011 20:33:03 it's possible I'll have a paper submitted to the ICFP 20:33:05 "a few months befoer ICFP" 20:33:07 *before 20:33:07 it'd be fun if I did well in the contest too 20:33:17 ais523: didn't you do the 2008 one? 20:33:24 yep 20:33:26 or 2009; the one whose ISO we mirrored 20:33:28 ais523: how well did you do? 20:33:41 umm, I think it probably was 2008 20:33:53 and I think I was eliminated in the fifth elimination round, or something like that 20:34:00 I did quite well but wasn't up there with the best entries 20:34:11 how well did the tex one do? :p 20:34:18 I don't know 20:34:35 I want to do an INTERCAL-based ICFP entry sometime 20:34:45 but it needs to be a vaguely appropriate task 20:34:51 which seems unlikely 20:35:18 ais523: incidentally, I've half-invented a purely functional, lazy concatenative language 20:35:25 *purely functional, strongly-typed, 20:35:46 who invented the other half? 20:35:53 or is it just missing? 20:36:22 ais523: I haven't invented it yet 20:37:05 ais523: oh, by the way, can you edit the esolang wiki CSS? 20:37:11 It'd be nice if you copied the "wikitable" class 20:37:16 from Wikipedia 20:38:16 I can, indeed 20:38:16 hmm, I think the CRTL spec is ambiguous 20:38:18 in more ways than one 20:38:21 what's the licensing on wikitable like? 20:38:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:35 ais523: err, do the Wikipedia .css pages have licenses? 20:38:38 it's in MediaWiki:something 20:38:47 Monobook.css or Common.css I think 20:38:52 (well, Vector.css, but that's not applicable for us) 20:38:54 MediaWiki:monobook.css or mediaWiki:common.css 20:38:57 probably the latter 20:39:16 hmm, I'm not sure 20:39:24 monobook doesn't mention wikitable, but Common.css only has a few rules mentioning them 20:39:27 and none seem relevant 20:39:36 perhaps it's done via javascript... 20:39:40 ...that would be insane 20:39:47 it's definitely CSS 20:40:01 remember that I was involved in maintaining the MediaWiki: namespace on Wikipedia for over a year 20:40:11 although I can't remember it all 20:40:16 collectively for all users of one wiki in MediaWiki:Common.css (for example, on this and some other projects there is or was the class wikitable, later moved to shared.css) 20:40:20 http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/common/shared.css?view=markup 20:40:35 ah, it was moved, that would make sense 20:40:38 there's also these two from common.css: 20:40:39 [[/* Normal font styling for table row headers with scope="row" tag */ 20:40:40 .wikitable.plainrowheaders th[scope=row] { 20:40:40 font-weight: normal; 20:40:40 text-align: left; 20:40:40 } 20:40:43 20:40:44 moved into the core itself is a little surprising, though 20:40:45 .wikitable td ul, 20:40:47 .wikitable td ol, 20:40:49 .wikitable td dl { 20:40:51 text-align: left; 20:40:53 } 20:40:57 ]] 20:40:59 ais523: hmm, that means it's OK for esolang, right? 20:41:07 because the CSS files are licensed under mediawiki's license already 20:41:09 MediaWiki itself isn't PD either 20:41:18 yes, but Esolang already has pages with its code 20:41:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:21 in the MediaWiki: namespace 20:41:26 nah, those pages don't actually exist 20:41:27 so they're arguably not pages 20:41:29 see? 20:41:32 if you edit them, they do 20:41:33 so it's okay to put it in the .css page 20:41:35 heh 20:41:48 it's a case of global default, plus the possibility for a local override 20:45:23 ais523: hmm 20:45:29 is the default file available 20:45:32 even if you edit it? 20:45:40 you could just include that with a css directive 20:46:07 and then reasonably argue that the 16 wikitable lines are sufficiently obvious as to be uncopyrightable :P 20:46:20 but more importantly 20:46:20 CRTL! 20:46:27 it'd be a mess; it is available sort-of, but the URL depends on things like whether you're logged in, or whatever 20:46:37 why don't you just do {| cellspacing=1 cellpadding=1 border=1 20:46:39 or whatever? 20:46:49 the old-fashioned pure-HTML way! 20:46:49 ais523: border=1 produces an ugly ridge border 20:46:58 and having a flat border requires a style="" on every single cell 20:47:01 which is hideously impractical 20:47:04 oh, I actually rather like that sort of border 20:47:17 ais523: I don't like it on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout/Quick_reference 20:47:20 it's too much visual noise 20:47:30 a flatter border would be beneficial, which wikitable has 20:47:37 anyway, no CSS editing for me right now, I fear I'd get sucked into a holy war 20:47:46 as people would want it to be consistent across the wiki 20:47:55 heh 20:49:20 I also fear it might end up breaking one of the Graue Regulations 20:49:31 which are rules that you get into serious trouble for breaking, that nobody knows what they are until someone breaks them 20:49:42 (perhaps not even Graue) 20:49:58 `addquote anyway, no CSS editing for me right now, I fear I'd get sucked into a holy war [...] I also fear it might end up breaking one of the Graue Regulations which are rules that you get into serious trouble for breaking, that nobody knows what they are until someone breaks them 20:49:59 320) anyway, no CSS editing for me right now, I fear I'd get sucked into a holy war [...] I also fear it might end up breaking one of the Graue Regulations which are rules that you get into serious trouble for breaking, that nobody knows what they are until someone breaks them 20:50:08 If I wrote an esolang interp in Clojure, would anyone use it, or are JVM esolang interps a bad idea? 20:50:12 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet! 20:50:44 Sgeo: they'd be around as likely to use it as in any other language 20:50:52 `addquote 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet! 20:50:52 321) 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet! 20:50:55 elliott: why do you keep adding non-funny quotes!? 20:51:07 olsner: because if i didn't add quotes we'd never get a funny one!! 20:51:40 -!- elliott has set topic: «Tra átedáwakin» tradáwan. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 20:51:50 ais523: that's not true 20:51:57 ais523: because running JVM stuff is a pain 20:52:03 especially since all clojure programs come with an additional jar 20:52:16 ais523: ofc, if you meant that the chance is 0, then i agree 20:52:25 QQ 20:52:50 elliott: oh, I was going on the basis that setting up esolang development environments tend to be nontrivial already 20:53:01 (and, ofc, teaching Java for a living, I'm likely to be able to run JVM stuff...) 20:53:15 hmm, did you ever figure out what computational calss qq was, apart from being sub-TC? 20:53:17 ais523: err, really? 20:53:24 usually it's just a "python" or a "gcc" away 20:54:52 ais523: please don't ban me for twenty-four years 20:55:09 ..? 20:55:10 maybe we should standardize on asylum, so we can just build every esolang directly from svn 20:55:16 olsner: :D 20:57:01 elliott: note that that doesn't mean I think it's a good language 20:57:09 and especially not a good first language 20:57:16 ais523: what doesn't 20:57:20 you teaching java? 20:57:37 yep 20:57:47 Once Clojure-in-Clojure is completed, Clojure can be ported to bare metal! 20:57:53 maybe 20:57:56 I hope, I mean 20:58:17 print "ok, so here comes the big gun (extracting the dependencies).This process takes about 2 minutes and 30 seconds to complete.....so chill" 20:58:21 --Asylum 20:59:07 what's with the time estimates? 20:59:10 especially hardcoded? 20:59:19 ais523: idiocy is what's with them! 20:59:25 I didn't do it 20:59:36 have you taken a look at my UL interp, btw? 20:59:46 you may find oerjan's church algorithm interesting 21:01:07 no, not yet 21:01:31 fizzie: do you have a copy of gearlance or one of its friends lying around, btw? I want to test some defend9.75 changes that egojous can't handle 21:01:57 and oerjan's church algorithm is presumably based on matching : and * pairs, but with specialcasing for commands that cancel each other out, and the ability to go down to 0 via !() 21:02:10 actually, the ! and () needn't be next to each other 21:02:13 so they'd need to be included too 21:02:16 ais523: egojsout? 21:02:18 is the obvious thing to use 21:02:27 but it's online 21:02:30 and oerjan's church algorithm is presumably based on matching : and * pairs, but with specialcasing for commands that cancel each other out, and the ability to go down to 0 via !() 21:02:32 it's more complicated than that 21:02:38 and thus kind-of hard to use when I'm at home 21:02:39 ais523: no it's not, you can wget two files to get egojsout 21:02:42 I suppose I could save a local copy 21:02:52 ais523: basically church works via partial emulation 21:03:07 ais523: it can even handle ((:*)^) 21:03:49 beautifully complex 21:04:22 +ul ((:a~*):a~*)^S 21:04:23 ^ul ((:a~*):a~*)^S 21:04:23 (:a~*):a~* 21:04:26 yes! it works! 21:04:29 p === (p) 21:04:43 (which i thought was impossible until i realised that's basically a quine) 21:04:53 ^ul ((:a~*):a~*)^^^^^^S 21:04:54 (:a~*):a~* 21:05:18 I think this also implies that (p) === (p)a 21:05:19 because 21:05:20 p === (p) 21:05:23 (p) === ((p)) 21:05:26 (p) === (p)a 21:08:33 I have this feeling that the 3 lightbulbs problem would be fantastic for making sure you didn't hire people capable of abstraction. 21:09:00 wut? 21:09:11 Oh, the switch thing. 21:09:29 OTOH, that's probably a good criterion to hire code monkeys on. 21:09:29 My answer would be "Thanks, this interview is now over". 21:10:24 Phantom_Hoover: I know that upon hearing of the problem, I tried to work it out for more and more and more lightbulbs 21:10:51 I spent quite a while wondering about if an infinite number were possible by undoing the switches, and reconnecting the wires behind them 21:10:58 but I've forgotten what conclusion I came to 21:12:21 argh, i've entered my hating-all-languages rut again 21:12:23 ;_; 21:12:48 elliott, I actually re-read the first time I started querying you on that. 21:13:04 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, when you were horrible and liked things. 21:13:07 Turns out you actually did make sense, but you phrased your point *really* poorly. 21:13:10 What a repulsive person you were! 21:13:15 Phantom_Hoover: (What logdate? X-D) 21:13:48 elliott, well, no, but you seemed to be saying "idiots hate Haskell because other idiots wrote crap libraries and package managers for it". 21:14:21 Which kind of implies a vast conspiracy of idiots making false flag operations to discredit languages which displease them. 21:14:31 Hmm, I don't remember saying that 21:14:48 cabal isn't _awful_, just annoying in parts... and most hackage libraries are alright 21:14:58 I'd say what's engendered most Haskell hate is dons' rabid promition >:) 21:15:00 *promotion 21:15:10 Well, that's not what you actually were saying, but you constructed the sentence really poorly/ 21:15:51 Phantom_Hoover: you're assuming that all idiots have a common agenda 21:15:58 they do 21:16:02 they have a union and everything 21:16:03 ais523, no, that's why it didn't make sense. 21:16:04 the Union of Idiots 21:16:09 I /hope/ that's not true, as the implications are complex and somewhat worrying 21:16:12 they have bi-annual meetings 21:16:21 to discuss (idiotically) how to bring more idiocy into the world 21:16:27 very sinister. 21:16:29 elliott, but how can you have a meeting of ~3 billion people? 21:16:32 are they any good at it? 21:16:40 Phantom_Hoover: Wow, that's an underestimate! 21:16:50 ais523: no, absolutely terrible. unfortunately that's exactly what they're aiming for. 21:17:04 elliott, the other 3.5 billion are too idiotic to have joined the union. 21:19:35 10:27:05 the actual initial condition has no program that generates it 21:19:35 10:27:08 the Perl is an approximation 21:19:35 errd 21:19:36 *er 21:19:37 *err 21:19:41 did you ever write such a program? 21:20:38 !ul (x)S 21:20:44 hmph, egobot used to have !ul as underload 21:20:47 admittedly, it was ais523's daemon 21:20:50 but now it's all verbose! 21:22:11 it was Keymaker's BF interp 21:22:19 all I did was make a couple of small changes to daemonize it 21:22:29 elliott: I need more context to answer that 21:22:40 ais523: 2,3 proof 21:22:51 oh, the initial condition's infinitely long 21:23:09 but I'm trying to write a 1cnis program to generate it atm 21:23:19 I'm trying to use 1cnis to formulate a definition of TCness 21:23:40 brb 21:24:30 (which is, that a language is TC if any Turing machine can be converted via a provably-halting process to a finite 1cnis program whose output is an initial condition for that language which causes it to halt iff the original Turing machine did) 21:26:52 what does that say about 1cnis? 21:27:37 that it's sub-TC 21:27:41 which is the point 21:27:51 it's designed to be sub-TC, but still capable of relatively interesting output 21:30:02 interesting enough to make your definition reasonable? 21:30:42 yep 21:31:03 well, the original definition was just "finite string padded with infinitely many 0s", then people realised that cyclic input was simple and interesting too 21:31:54 and the 2,3 machine seems to need a more interesting generalised input than that 21:32:17 so the idea's to use 1cnis to generate the input, without being powerful enough to work out whether a turing machine halts or not 21:32:39 (note: it's entirely possible for computable programs to work out if a TM halts if they're allowed infinite time to do so, and only have to output in the case where it halts) 21:34:04 -!- augur has joined. 21:36:20 that's a halt-recognizer. no one here would deny their existence. 21:36:29 yep 21:36:43 so the idea is to come up with a language you can't write a general TM halt-recogniser in 21:36:49 and yet is as powerful as possible despite that 21:36:55 well yes 21:37:38 is such a thing most likely less powerful than the most powerful sub-TC language? 21:37:52 hmm, I don't know 21:46:59 do you think it's possible to design a language such that number of features it has are controlled by some parameter N, and as N->infinity, it the fraction of computable problems it is capable of deciding ->1? 21:47:36 I don't know. 21:47:43 so far, all the languages i know that have a parameter gain all the TCness suddenly in the jump from finite to infinite 21:47:56 (which is, that a language is TC if any Turing machine can be converted via a provably-halting process to a finite 1cnis program whose output is an initial condition for that language which causes it to halt iff the original Turing machine did) 21:47:58 i dislike this 21:48:04 for instance, bounded loops 21:48:15 elliott: for what reason? 21:48:58 ais523: because i don't think repeating progams are acceptable 21:49:25 ah 21:49:38 ais523: that makes a language with just enough to execute one sub-TC step, plus a simple conditional halt, TC 21:49:44 most people disagree with you on that, I think 21:49:47 cycle (step; halt if halt flag) 21:50:02 also, it's a little irritating that hibernation on this system correctly saves everything but the icon previews shown on alt-tab 21:50:17 my guess is, that they're stored in GPU memory, and hibernation restores CPU memory correctly but screws up on GPU memory somehow 21:50:47 I doubt they're exclusively in GPU memory... 21:50:51 ais523: that makes a language with just enough to execute one sub-TC step, plus a simple conditional halt, TC <--- but it is, if it allows infinite programs, by most common definitions 21:51:12 ais523: well, yes, which is why i don't think they should be allowed 21:51:30 ais523: a language which had that as its core but wrapped the whole program in an implicit cycle would be OK, since it doesn't have to resort to infinite programs being fed to an interpreter in its definition 21:51:35 I think such a language probably /is/ TC, all it's missing is a loop construct 21:51:50 exactly 21:51:53 it's missing a loop construct 21:51:56 unconditional goto would be enough 21:52:06 and given that it allows infinite programs, that in itself is a loop construct 21:52:13 What I really want is a formal definition of IO-complete. 21:52:36 elliott: put it this way: Turing machines themselves are non-TC by your definition, because they'd only be allowed a finitely long tape 21:53:34 ais523: err, no, tape isn't part of the program 21:54:10 elliott: I'm talking about using 1cnis to generate the equivalent of the tape 21:54:16 hmm 21:54:19 i.e. an input for a /particular/ Turing machine 21:54:33 fair enough, then 21:54:46 ais523: I'm really talking from a language point of view 21:54:50 TMs are weird 21:55:20 well, do you consider "turing machine" a language, or "a particular turing machine" a language? there are cases to be made for both points of view 21:55:47 ais523: well, precisely 21:58:31 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:58:41 -!- quintopia has joined. 21:58:41 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 21:58:41 -!- quintopia has joined. 21:59:40 But a universal turing machine is TC :o 21:59:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:00:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:01:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Prince_Charles. 22:01:32 ais523: you've read stack overflow a bit, right? 22:01:40 wtf is the difference between the programmers stackexchange and stackoverflow 22:01:44 a very small bit, mostly I just follow links to it from reddit 22:01:47 "migrated from stackoverflow.com 2 days ago 22:01:47 This question came from our site for professional and enthusiast programmers." --programmers.stackexchange 22:01:52 "This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for expert programmers interested in professional discussions on software development. It's 100% free, no registration required." --programmers.stackexchange 22:01:54 and I think stackoverflow's about programming/coding specifically 22:02:02 the question is "What kind of things are easy in Haskell and hard in Scala, and vice versa?" 22:02:04 as in, "how do I write a while loop in brainfuck" 22:02:06 which is about programming/coding 22:02:12 ais523: possibly, but 22:02:13 This question came from our site for professional and enthusiast programmers." --programmers.stackexchange 22:02:13 "This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for expert programmers interested in professional discussions on software development. It's 100% free, no registration required." --programmers.stackexchange 22:02:17 whereas stackexchange is about things that aren't quite so specific 22:02:18 those descriptions are almost identical 22:02:23 *programmers. 22:02:28 stackexchange is just their money cow 22:02:35 err, is money cow a word? :D 22:02:36 also, stackexchange is more enterprisey, and apparently has a more insane community 22:02:44 ais523: stackexchange is a host 22:02:49 stop referring to an individual site as that 22:02:53 it's like saying "geocities is badly designed" 22:02:55 because of one site on it 22:03:13 ah, didn't realise there was more than one stackexchange site 22:03:35 ais523: for instance the Mathematics one 22:03:43 (different from MathOverflow, which is also a stack exchange site, but with its own domain) 22:03:56 (it seems every stack*/*overflow site must have two copies!) 22:04:17 technically Mathematics stackexchange is for idiots and MathOverflow is for mathematicians 22:04:35 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:05:19 -!- quintopia has joined. 22:05:19 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 22:05:19 -!- quintopia has joined. 22:05:22 http://komplexify.com/blog/2011/02/23/indefinite-is-right/ 22:05:24 Hmm. 22:05:50 "I’ve gone on about renaming the imaginary number or being precise with trig, and I’m a believer that was the wrong choice." 22:05:54 Person with no actual mathematical skill detected. 22:05:58 *that pi was 22:06:02 elliott, link? 22:06:07 Oh, right. 22:06:08 Prince_Charles: THE THING YOU JUST LINKED 22:06:12 >_< 22:06:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:06:24 I SKIPPED THE FIRST BIT AND LOOKED AT THE FIRST MATHSY BIT 22:06:35 oklopol, DO YOU HAVE, LIKE, A MATHS DETECTOR 22:06:43 oklopol 22:06:43 omg 22:06:45 i've miiissed you 22:06:52 is Prince_Charles phantom 22:06:58 oklopol, #esoteric-minecraft NOW 22:07:00 oklopol, yes. 22:07:09 oklopol promise not to ever leave again please 22:07:24 well i promised to myself i wouldn't join before my master's thesis is finished, but here i am 22:07:34 that is a terrible promise, i hereby revoke it 22:07:46 well it's been revokened already 22:07:50 hooray 22:07:55 how can you revoke someone else's promise? 22:08:00 ais523: forcibly 22:08:05 elliott: note that I haven't been here for a while for similar reasons 22:08:18 although my master's thesis was finished, submitted and marked ages ago 22:08:18 ais523: I thought you were avoiding someone 22:08:22 yeah but you're doing a real thesis 22:08:26 who can... tell when you're on IRC, or something 22:08:27 i'm doing a silly kids' thesis 22:08:38 yep, in order to give myself enough time to finish the work for them that I hadn't done 22:08:42 heh 22:08:46 i have a copy of oklopol's masters thesis right here 22:08:49 allow me to recite 22:08:55 hmm 22:08:58 what would be suitably insulting 22:09:10 elliott, it's in Finnish, remember. 22:09:13 WHY THE HALTING PROBLEM MEANS YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANY PROGRAM, YOU JUST CAN'T KNOW, OR, 22:09:31 it's not in finnish 22:09:33 Päöööööketealala on defining divison by zero in the reals 22:09:34 By 22:09:36 Oklo the Pol 22:09:44 oklopol: one word of the title is! 22:09:55 in yours, yes, in mine, no 22:09:59 oklopol: why not? 22:10:07 because oklopol can't speak finnish 22:10:10 so that English researchers can read it? 22:10:10 he actually lives in new jersey 22:10:11 because english is easier 22:10:15 but 22:10:19 but finnish is agglutinative 22:10:23 that too 22:10:27 the aggleuege thing 22:10:31 it's annoying 22:10:33 why would you ever pass up the chance to just pile a bunch of words on top of each other to get a new word 22:10:36 that's amazing 22:11:03 the fact english researchers can read it doesn't matter because no one is going to read it except my supervisor 22:11:21 and another guy who checks it, who actually isn't very good at english because he's over 100 years old 22:11:32 elliott, AS A MEMBER OF THE ROYAL FAMILY MIGHT I REMIND YOU THAT ENGLISH IS OBVIOUSLY THE SUPERIOR LANGUAGE 22:11:34 oklopol: i'd totally read it and pretend to understand, but i bet you won't even upload it 22:11:44 you have to do the bachelor's in finnish, but - thank god - you can do your master's in english 22:11:52 Prince_Charles: can't you get executed for impersonating the royal family 22:12:03 oklopol: I'm just glad they don't make me do my PhD thesis in Finnish 22:12:06 oklopol: i thought you were learning japspeak anyway, and that's agglunuangungoisnaoign pile-on-toppy 22:12:10 because I don't know Finnish, and it would be kind-of difficult 22:12:10 elliott: it will probably be published 22:12:14 i can link it 22:12:19 elliott, true, but I am a member of the royal family so it doesn't apply. 22:12:28 Prince_Charles: toucheee 22:12:30 published in a free place 22:12:40 ais523: just learn the words for basic logical things 22:12:49 ais523: and use agglutinativity to construct the rest of what you have to say 22:12:54 from scratch 22:13:00 admittedly, every word will take up about five pages 22:13:00 http://komplexify.com/blog/2009/02/19/in-defense-of-j/ 22:13:18 tl;dr: "i is bad because it weeds the idiots out of mathematics." 22:13:35 what? 22:13:37 what is i 22:13:45 oklopol, -_- 22:13:46 oh 22:13:48 not the language 22:13:49 i is elliott 22:13:54 the imaginarium 22:14:02 Of Doctor Parnassus? 22:14:09 *Persnickity 22:14:12 what was i gonna say. uhh. 22:14:20 oh yeah. 22:14:26 um i forgot. 22:14:35 let's talk about how bad google translate's interface is. 22:14:38 or something. 22:14:42 TDWTF forums are discussing the fact that apparently, you aren't supposed to use MSDN versions of Windows for anything but development 22:15:13 elliott, but we have already pointed out that text interfaces are USER UNFRIENDLY and COMPLETELY INFERIOR TO SYSTEMS SUCH AS 3DNA, eh, Sgeo? 22:15:22 Prince_Charles: it seems that the only mathematical stuff this guy writes about is stupid notational complaints 22:15:38 If I were my father I would make an antisemitic remark here. 22:15:41 i should be j! "sin(x)^2 should obviously mean sin(x) squared, and sin^2(x) is like satan itself!" 22:15:46 "blah blah blah integrals confuse me!" 22:16:00 Prince_Charles, when did I suggest that the me now agrees with the past me? 22:16:09 i wonder if there's people who believe in the reals but not the complex numbers 22:16:15 I think it is OK to use "i" for imaginary numbers. I think it can be formatted as $\rm i$ when you mean the imaginary numbers mathematical constant rather than the variable "i" as $i$ 22:16:19 oklopol, Recordis 22:16:31 elliott: an iterated sin/cos is useful in describing the motion of a child on a swing 22:16:32 oklopol: they're imaginary! 22:16:48 ais523: but not an adult? 22:16:54 do they swing differently? 22:16:54 their horizontal displacement from the midpoint is sin sin t, if you choose appropriate values 22:16:56 Recordis hates imaginary numbers. 22:16:59 "I’m am a professional mathematician with an interest in the liberal arts." 22:17:01 adults tend to swing more violently, and possibly break the swing 22:17:03 he'm am a professional mathematician 22:17:05 also, there's more air resistance 22:17:09 zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that. 22:17:13 Sgeo, who is this Recordis person. 22:17:15 `addquote zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that. 22:17:21 elliott, he's a professional complex analyst. 22:17:33 322) zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that. 22:17:44 i don't even want to know who Recordis is. 22:17:47 If we really want to go around changing math notation, let's start with the *really* egregious stuff. 22:17:55 Like 1-indexing of matrices. 22:17:55 that's a lie, i do want to know 22:18:00 so i can laugh at Sgeo for associating with him 22:18:04 elliott, some idiot who Sgeo is incapable of seeing as such. 22:18:10 A fictitious character. 22:18:32 pikhq: i'm actually doing stuff where i need to do stuff on the whole Z^2 plane, but actually usually just use a submatrix of it 22:18:53 so i have to either use nonstandard indexing of matrices or 22:19:09 nonstandard indexing of the plane 22:19:27 oklopol: I'm just a poor CS student in a linear algebra class. 1-indexing must die. 22:19:33 or constantly switch 22:19:42 i wanted to strangle mathematics when i realized this 22:19:44 I did read the article. Also, they are wrong when they said "Mathematicians tried to fix this somewhat by changing the name of imaginary numbers to complex numbers". Imaginary numbers are like square root of negative numbers. Complex numbers are numbers with real and imaginary components. 22:19:56 well i was mostly hating on the fact the axes are in a different order 22:19:57 (One or both of which may be zero) 22:20:00 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlgebraTheEasyWay <3 22:20:09 As should (as I have said) any emphasis manual computation of algorithms. 22:20:30 1-indexing is annoying as well, usually 22:20:45 Sgeo, I SUSPECT YOU OF BEING INVOLVED 22:20:58 1-indexing is silly, it's for people who think N is the wrong N 22:21:02 :D 22:21:23 elliott, like the maths teacher who kicked me out of class for that? 22:21:27 YES 22:21:28 I mean, manual computation of algorithms has absolutely no use. At all. 22:21:38 *Implementing* an algorithm, sure. 22:21:41 which N is correct, elliott? 22:21:58 oklopol: the one starting with 4 22:21:59 i mean 0 22:22:02 (i mean 4) 22:22:08 pikhq, it's so you can know the suffering of those pre-any electronic device or slide rule people 22:22:14 wouldn't it be cool if 4 was the smallest number. 22:22:31 Sgeo, you mean pre-Napier people? 22:22:43 That was back when you didn't even have sensible notation. 22:22:51 "What are these books doing on this site, then? Well, as the above quote suggests, the textbooks are written in the format of adventure novels, where the main characters essentially have to derive algebra (respectively trigonometry, calculus) from first principles in order to prevent the Big Bad from taking over the kingdom." 22:22:52 dear god Sgeo 22:22:56 I sometimes think of how things must have been then and shiver. 22:23:15 elliott: i use the other N more often 22:23:18 that's mostly because for some reason indexing usually starts at 0 22:23:19 elliott, what? 22:23:32 oklopol: err the correct N is the one that includes 0 22:23:35 Prince_Charles, Wiki is unhelpful here 22:23:39 isn't that me agreeing with you 22:23:40 elliott: erm, starts at 1 22:23:42 Sgeo, Napier? 22:23:56 The guy who invented logarithms in the stupidest way possible? 22:23:58 oklopol: right well that's just because everyone is stupid 22:24:04 Sgeo: I suppose we should also make students know the suffering of those pre-pencil, and have to deal with a quill and an ink well? 22:24:11 elliott: this we agree on 22:24:13 pikhq: YES 22:24:13 Also Scottish 22:24:54 pikhq, oi, pencils are horrible. 22:25:05 (I do *all* written work with a fountain pen.) 22:25:07 Prince_Charles: Not compared to a quill. 22:25:16 (My handwriting is legendarily awful.) 22:25:32 [[Then in Chapter 8 of Calculus the Easy Way, the heroes have three hours to derive the Fundamental Theorem of Integral Calculus; if they fail, the entire country will be destroyed in a fire or flood.]] 22:25:34 Prince_Charles: :pretentious fart: 22:25:34 I guess Knuth prefers writing a matrix with parentheses instead of square brackets? I prefer using square brackets for a matrix, and fortunately it is very easy to do in TeX: \def\bmatrix#1{\left[\matrix{#1}\right]} 22:25:38 TOO COOL FOR BIRO EH 22:25:38 but fountain pen cannot be destroyd 22:25:40 What way do you prefer? 22:25:41 *destroyed 22:25:49 Sgeo, you have 10 seconds to tell me how that is not horrifically contrived. 22:25:55 Oh, and students should also have to deal with books of tables of basic functions, like log and exp. 22:26:27 Which way do you prefer to display a matrix? 22:26:32 elliott, biros are horrible to write with... 22:26:41 Because it makes sense to have to learn to deal with decades-old concerns. 22:26:44 Prince_Charles: see 22:26:45 elliott: Ballpoint pens do suck. 22:26:47 too good for biros 22:26:49 fucking 22:26:49 zzo38: parens 22:26:51 pretentious elitistifier 22:26:52 They require way too much pressure to use comfortably. 22:26:56 Prince_Charles, well, the problem as presented to the characters is about finding the volume of a bunch of pools that the Gremlin placed magical flames in 22:27:00 They're cheap, and that's about the only thing that can be said for them. 22:27:05 They need exactly the right amount of water, no more no less 22:27:08 pikhq: stfu busy mocking prince charles 22:27:12 It is contrieved, of course 22:27:27 Sgeo, y'know what, I don't care. 22:27:51 oklopol: So you agree with Knuth on that, then. Nothing wrong with that; it is just different convention being used. (You can use \pmatrix in TeX to typeset such a matrix (except on Wikipedia).) 22:27:53 If you're so incapable of abstract thought to need everything given a stupid "practical" scenario, I have no time for you. 22:28:31 Prince_Charles, it's entertaining, and it helped me understand to some degree when I was a kid 22:28:55 * pikhq votes we just force kids to deal with abstract thought from a young age. 22:29:05 Step one: Ixnay on the algorithms. 22:29:26 zzo38: i use \begin{array} \end{it} in my latex. 22:29:48 pikhq, which algorithms? 22:29:48 Although I still hate Trigonometry 22:30:04 Sgeo, I can't fault you on that, I hate trig too. 22:30:09 Prince_Charles: Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. There is no sense in spending 6 years on them. 22:30:36 pikhq, yes there is; idiots can't understand them. 22:30:57 Also, you need to redefine them about 3 times for different sets. 22:30:59 But what about those of us terrible at arithmetic. :p 22:31:19 maybe we could kill everyone who's stupid? 22:31:32 like cough me 22:31:33 Six. Fucking. Years. to get a high level of competency at a skill that is about as useful as the ability to succesfully operate a slide rule. 22:31:37 that's in response to my line /and/ oklopol's 22:31:40 Prince_Charles: you mean extend for larger sets of numbers? 22:31:44 or what 22:31:50 oklopol, well, yeah. 22:31:58 like the N Z Q R C thing 22:32:09 Sure, perhaps *teach* them, but you really, really, really don't need to spend *years* drilling on them to get students to be able to perform them quickly. 22:32:20 does anyone actually use Q? or is it just there for completeness? 22:32:25 I have a slide rule! 22:32:34 ais523, Q is taught pretty thoroughly. 22:32:38 I made one once, but it wasn't very accurate 22:32:40 erm Q is used all the time 22:33:14 ais523, that's rationals, not quaternions. 22:33:19 I know 22:33:31 Then yeah, Q is covered pretty completely. 22:33:32 ais523: I like Q! 22:33:36 ais523: you haven't seen Q used in math? :P 22:33:40 it's much nicer than R. 22:33:49 When I was a kid, I read a book on doing arithmatic a bit differently 22:33:50 oklopol: I think I study the wrong sort of math 22:33:51 elliott: I prefer the computable reals, myself. 22:33:52 for that 22:33:56 Indeed, it's basically all that's covered until idiots start getting trimmed out. 22:33:56 *maths 22:34:03 ais523, yes, you study COMPUTER MATHS 22:34:20 ais523: what sort of maths do you study? 22:34:23 Prince_Charles: remember I was an electronic engineer for years 22:34:40 oklopol: mostly linear and affine type systems, at the moment 22:34:44 ais523, SCUUUUUM 22:34:49 Obviously there are some things wrong with the mathematical typesetting in Wikipedia, some things are incompatible between TeX and Wikipedia. If I write a change file for TeX and a program to convert a Pascal code to PHP, and then add some things to output .png and so on, can they use it? 22:34:51 Prince_Charles: It's a bit like spending 6 freaking years on the ability to write the glyphs of your spoken language well. 22:34:53 Prince_Charles: that's a strange reaction 22:34:55 well of course you won't see Q when doing continuous engineer stuff 22:35:00 It is a *fucking waste of time*. 22:35:00 :P 22:35:03 pikhq, ever heard of handwriting lessons? 22:35:05 zzo38: I suspect they can, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will 22:35:18 Wait, maybe you don't have them in the States. 22:35:22 also, remember that TeX is Turing-complete 22:35:26 it'd be bad for a wiki engine to be TC 22:35:27 Prince_Charles: Yes, we spend years on handwriting too. 22:35:32 Prince_Charles: It is still a fucking waste of time. 22:36:16 pikhq, I feel that we are somehow arguing over something we agree on. 22:36:31 ais523: Yes I do know. And I would like wiki engine to be TC, however. It helps with many things. Even Hackiki is a TC engine (actually it has limited memory; but I mean ignoring that). And it can have time limit for PHP running. 22:36:32 You could literally remove the first 6 years of public schooling and have lost nothing. 22:37:04 pikhq, weeeellll... 22:37:24 http://www.hookahcompany.com/hobo_nargile_4363_prd1.htm should i get? 22:37:27 There are some useful bits in there, but they're mainly completed early on. 22:37:32 Prince_Charles: Okay, not quite literally. Unless the parents are not idiots. 22:37:35 augur: no 22:37:35 you could replace it by beating the kids with a hammer for a few years to make the transition more smooth 22:37:42 ais523: why not 22:37:55 because I'm throwing out a truth value at pseudorandom without following the link 22:38:03 If the parents *are* idiots, then you have lost time away from the TV, which at least has some value. 22:38:10 ais523: :) 22:38:21 and besides, "no" is my default answer to any question that involves "should I buy X" 22:38:22 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:38:22 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:38:42 * Prince_Charles cannot remember any significant intellectual development he made in primary school. 22:38:55 i have WAY too much money 22:39:03 oklopol! 22:39:03 \o/ 22:39:06 * pikhq learned to program whilst going through primary school 22:39:13 I mean, there was the odd bit of useful science, but nothing much more. 22:39:15 ooh, I think I received my first spam ever on my nomic email account 22:39:15 Prince_Charles: i can't remember any development in high school either 22:39:18 normally they come on the main one 22:39:31 And read books that many high school graduates couldn't... 22:39:37 it was like 3 years of coma 22:39:39 But that's not because of primary school at all. 22:39:47 you're all quite lame 22:39:50 oklopol, wait, 3? 22:39:58 it's a 419 again, although this time the person doing it, apparently the daughter of the late "king of Bobo Land In BURKINA_FASO", is romantically interested in me 22:40:03 in primary school i was reading the science desk reference cover to cover 22:40:05 How are your schools set out? 22:40:08 and trying to grok relativity 22:40:13 (failingly) 22:40:23 Prince_Charles: 3 years of high school is the norm in many countries, and was the norm in the US until vaguely recently. 22:40:31 Prince_Charles: yeah, that's the normal amount here 22:40:37 it's a 419 again, although this time the person doing it, apparently the daughter of the late "king of Bobo Land In BURKINA_FASO", is romantically interested in me 22:40:40 heh 22:40:47 pikhq, ... 22:40:57 Erm, what ages are high school? 22:40:58 also, reply-to doesn't match send address, /and/ there isn't an address to send to listed in the body of the email itself 22:41:06 which implies to me that the scammer is at least vaguely technically literate 22:41:07 I'm assuming you have 3 tiers. 22:41:13 we first do 6 years of bullshit, then 3 more years of supposedly more advanced bullshit, then 3 years of high school, which is bullshit 22:41:38 it even has undisclosed recipients 22:41:57 6 years of bullshit, 3 years of bullshit, then 4 years of bullshit here. 22:41:59 so I'm impressed, although I'm not actually planning to reply 22:42:04 Prince_Charles: we stard high school at 15 or 16 or something i think? 22:42:19 you calculate, i'm on my 3rd year of uni and i was born in 89 22:42:22 oklopol, ah, right. 22:42:30 no gaps anywhere 22:43:10 Prince_Charles: We start high school around 14, graduate around 18. 22:43:13 when you get the answer, tell me too, would be interesting to know 22:43:57 pikhq, ah, here it's secondary from 11 to 17. 22:44:08 so... you start school at 5? 22:44:32 this is way too confusing 22:44:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:49 oklopol: Yup. 22:44:55 my brain has no slots for bullshit-related information :( 22:45:01 oklopol, well, I started at 4, and those ages are based on my age at the end of each year. 22:45:21 yup at the 5 thing? 22:45:24 Yeah. 22:45:27 Gyaargh, fencepost. 22:45:27 They do have a program texvc written in OCaml. I could just write a shorter one in PHP and then write a TeX format file to disable a few commands and omit page numbers and so on. And then render all formulas in one TeX document and each page of output is then made into a .png file. 22:45:31 *fenceposts. 22:45:35 12-17, then. 22:45:56 And 5-11 is primary. 22:46:07 And have \write limited to writing to only one file, which its contents are then processed as MediaWiki codes by MediaWiki. 22:46:17 at 4? :D here's a list of what we do at age 4: 22:46:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:46:44 and here comes the exhaustive list for ages 5-6: 22:46:50 And then add some sort of timeout mechanism. 22:47:01 oklopol, P1 has basically nothing in it. 22:47:16 Middle school, also part of secondary education in the US, starts around 11 and goes to age 14... 22:47:19 Beginnings of reading and writing is all that I can remember. 22:47:46 Oh, yeah, and we have an optional "preschool" thing... 22:47:51 P1 being first year of primary? 22:47:58 oklopol, yes. 22:48:23 we start learning to write at 7 22:48:23 So, yeah, we spend a *fuckton* of time on primary and secondary education for, well, shitty results. 22:48:56 we have preschool at age 6, but that's just playing 22:50:06 oklopol, pfft, we had woodwork when I was at nursery. 22:50:09 With nails and hammers. 22:50:10 However, in Hackiki, it is probably possible to make proper TeX math. Does Hackiki have TeX? If not, does it have a GNU Pascal compiler (so that tex-gpc can be installed)? 22:50:19 I gave myself a blood blister once. 22:50:24 There's not a heck of a lot of value in kindergarten (first year of primary education), but it is mandatory in many states. 22:50:26 nursery = ? 22:50:32 oklopol, preschool. 22:50:40 so that'd be... age 3? 22:50:49 No, 4. 22:50:52 we drool at age 3 22:50:56 here in finland 22:51:00 okay 22:51:01 right 22:51:15 It's pretty saddening that I could probably do education better than our school systems. Personally. 22:51:20 I have in fact, written a program that convert .dvi to .pbm format. 22:51:30 pikhq, well, could you? 22:51:30 so what you went to school at age 4 because you were a particularly smart 4yo? :P 22:51:40 oklopol, yes. 22:51:44 haha 22:51:44 okay 22:51:51 that's cool 22:51:56 I think I might have been able to read by then, but I can't actually remember. 22:51:58 Though, courtesy of the religious wackos around here, I would actually be able to do so should I ever have a child. 22:52:44 i went to school at 4 22:52:45 and could read 22:52:46 well 22:52:47 preschool eyah 22:52:48 *yeah 22:52:53 (I'm right next to the lower age boundary, though, so it was really a matter of rounding up rather than down.) 22:52:55 everyone can read at 4 22:52:55 (certain religious nutjobs are worried about our schools not being sufficiently crazy, so have fought for the right to do homeschooling. Little-to-no regulations with it.) 22:53:38 i only tried writing at 5, i wrote "fuck, shit, satan" on a piece of paper, and showed it to my father, proud as hell 22:53:42 (in finnish) 22:54:09 homeschooling ftw 22:54:29 oklopol, not *unregulated* homeschooling, though. 22:54:40 Prince_Charles: Regulations vary from state to state. 22:54:55 And the whargarble is strong in many states in the US. 22:55:08 Since that inevitably just results in crazies ruining their children's chances of sanity 22:55:08 regulate parenting, not homeschooling :P 22:55:30 elliott, that's strangely unpalatable to some people. 22:55:30 parents suck at parenting 22:55:41 don't care 22:55:44 OTOH, these people tend to be the lesser kind of idiot. 22:56:16 well, people suck at living 22:56:25 in general 22:56:48 Like, the kind who aren't actively *stupid*, but are just incapable of making rational decisionss. 22:56:51 *decisions 22:57:05 the problem is that you can't really stop crazies without rapidly approaching china :) 22:57:10 *crazies from breeding 22:57:27 you don't have to stop them from breeding, you just have to kill their children 22:57:30 I have no real moral issue with regulating reproduction and parenting _except_ that it requires too powerful a government 22:57:36 much less painful to everyone 22:57:41 they still get to have sex 22:57:44 (providing services doesn't make a government more powerful) 22:57:44 What elliott said 22:57:56 but none of those condoms and buying kids food and shit 22:57:56 oh, one other issue 22:58:06 let's just have abortions for everyone!! 22:58:12 elliott, clearly the solution is to enact mandatory, genetically fixed sterilisation. 22:58:13 then you don't even have to go through childbirth amirite 22:58:18 regulating children is inhumane regardless of the step you do it at 22:58:19 Prince_Charles: I have no real moral issue with regulating reproduction and parenting _except_ that it requires too powerful a government 22:58:19 :-P 22:58:24 if it weren't inhumane, I wouldn't have an issue with it 22:58:42 requiring parents to undergo a course when pregnant would be fine 22:59:03 Huh. Apparently only a minority of those homeschooling in the US do so for any religious reasons at all. 22:59:05 but moving children/preventing them from being born is not good 22:59:15 pikhq, hmm. 22:59:21 pikhq: A lot do it because they (correctly) believe they can teach better than their children 22:59:28 I was officially down as being homeschooled for N years. 22:59:31 err 22:59:33 Any factors able to skew that? 22:59:34 :P 22:59:36 better than the teachers 22:59:43 coppro: Yeah, some 48%. 22:59:46 elliott, what *were* you doing? 22:59:57 Prince_Charles: Wikipedia :-P 22:59:58 teaching himself 23:00:00 or because they don't want their children exposed to school social environment 23:00:09 coppro: Which is entirely valid, IMO. 23:00:10 (also a good idea as long as they make sure their kid gets some social exposure) 23:00:18 elliott, WP kind of sucks as a teaching resource. 23:00:22 the modern school social environment usually sucks 23:00:31 I am led to believe it's worse in the US 23:00:38 Prince_Charles: Well, it's not ideal. WP + google is better than standardised schooling though. 23:00:47 It's permanently scarring in the US. 23:00:49 Since it's just a heap of definitions that frequently take a lot of cross-referencing to figure out. 23:00:50 (At the pre-university level.) 23:00:57 Prince_Charles: Yes, but I call that "fun". 23:01:00 pikhq: is it? 23:01:18 I could probably go to university at the end of this year, but the thought of going at 16 scares me too much. 23:01:29 Prince_Charles: why does it scare you? 23:01:40 oklopol, because I'm a wuss. 23:01:44 pikhq: Here it was bad until I found a good peer group. Then the rest of the environment didn't matter because I had my peer group 23:01:44 no one cares how old you are at the uni 23:01:46 at least here 23:01:51 coppro: We have a fairly high proportion of mental disorders such as depression in high schoolers these days. 23:02:00 oklopol: it would be awkward 23:02:06 why? 23:02:07 and things being awkward aren't related to whether anyone else cares or not 23:02:12 hmm 23:02:14 elliott: Not for long. 23:02:18 oklopol: um deviating against any kind of social norm is usually pretty awkward 23:02:24 at least for a short while 23:02:47 people come to uni at all kinds of ages 23:02:52 oklopol: maybe in .fi 23:02:55 pikhq: fair, but any clue why? 23:02:58 well right 23:03:08 is it the attitude at school in particular or social attitudes generally? 23:03:19 i was in uni courses when i was 16 and it was not at all awkward 23:03:30 yah but you're insanely extroverted. 23:03:40 we're all hopelessly shy nerds with social anxiety. 23:03:43 people keep telling me that 23:03:46 and and uh 23:03:47 pimples!! 23:03:50 and ACNE 23:03:53 gotta fit 23:03:53 all 23:03:53 the 23:03:54 coppro: Y'know "Lord of the Flies"? 23:03:55 i have a bit of acne 23:03:55 stereotypes 23:03:57 in 23:04:01 stereotypes, gotta catch 'em all 23:04:06 elliott, well, IRL I am actually fairly extroverted depending on circumstances. 23:04:06 pikhq: hah 23:04:08 Erm, s|"|/|g 23:04:28 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 23:04:29 I'm ridiculously shy and have terrible social anxiety but with friends I'm irritatingly chatty. 23:04:30 pikhq: admittedly, my school had a gifted program 23:04:34 It bothers me. 23:05:17 coppro: Seriously, the administration at most schools fundamentally doesn't care about what's going on. If something comes to their attention, all involved get suspension or expulsion. 23:05:27 pikhq: really? yuck :( 23:05:41 pikhq: You forgot "or ignored". 23:05:44 my administration experience was pretty good 23:05:45 the n-volume of a standard n-simplex is 1/n! right? 23:05:48 elliott: Or ignored, yes. 23:05:49 they obviously couldn't monitor everything 23:06:00 quintopia: what's a standard n-simplex? 23:06:01 elliott: Depending on how their week had been going, really. 23:06:10 the one where you have a point 1 along each axis? 23:06:12 -!- Ilari has joined. 23:06:21 My experience with administration has been pretty negative, but then again I've never really had a problem with people making my life hell. 23:06:32 oklopol: exactly 23:06:34 but I felt I was being bullied a bit more than constituted just fun one time, and I went in, and the assistant principal dragged everyone I named in and gave them a talking-to (using the convenient excuse that the substitute teacher that day had been concerned) 23:06:44 they didn't get suspended, but they definitely got a message 23:06:47 I was, uh, not very popular in middle school. 23:06:52 (and I'll be fair; I didn't really want them suspended) 23:07:30 coppro: Here, you'd be ignored up until you got injured. 23:07:35 coppro: And then you'd be punished! 23:07:40 Hooray, zero-tolerance! 23:07:46 pikhq: :/ 23:07:48 wow, that's awful 23:07:53 quintopia: i think it is, don't know tho 23:08:01 pikhq, why would *you* get punished? 23:08:16 but hmm 23:08:36 ermmmm 23:09:48 Prince_Charles: Illogic. 23:10:22 well who likes a little fag who gets beaten up all the time right 23:11:16 No, I am genuinely curious as to what kind of twisted mind comes up with such an idiotic policy. 23:11:19 quintopia: i have no idea how to calculate that, even, in a simple way 23:12:09 oklopol: well, i'm pretty sure the first three are 1,1/2,1/6, so i just assumed it would continue :P 23:12:10 except maybe solving the integral actually is pretty simple 23:12:14 and gives you 1/n! 23:12:38 you have nested integrals from 0 to 1, and you're integrating constant 1 23:12:53 1, x, x^2/2, x^3/6 etc 23:12:58 pikhq, answer goddamn it. 23:13:01 Don't make me hit you 23:13:16 well who likes a little fag who gets beaten up all the time right 23:13:19 ;--------------; 23:13:26 i have no idea what that smiley is even. 23:13:30 :D 23:14:08 erm 23:14:28 quintopia: sorry, you may have noticed i was a bit hasty there, it's not that simple :P 23:14:37 15:06:34 but I felt I was being bullied a bit more than constituted just fun one time, and I went in, and the assistant principal dragged everyone I named in and gave them a talking-to (using the convenient excuse that the substitute teacher that day had been concerned) 23:14:37 15:06:44 they didn't get suspended, but they definitely got a message 23:14:52 what happened with me (obviously i was a lot younger) was, uh 23:15:03 yeah i think they got verbally half-slapped on the wrist. 23:15:15 although i don't know of any actual evidence that even that happened 23:15:39 (that incident was actually physical.) 23:15:47 tl;dr i have no idea what this tl;dr is 23:15:50 anyway 23:15:52 ff 23:15:55 back to minecraft 23:16:01 time to get bullied by skeletons HUR HUR 23:16:03 i don't think we had that much bullying in our school, the physical kind that is 23:16:08 oklopol: it looks like it works out though 23:16:26 quintopia: it does. but does it actually work out? 23:16:36 i mean 23:16:59 first integral is from 0 to 1, but the second is from 0 to 1-x for x the first integral's variable, and after that who knows! 23:17:24 another way to approach it would be to decide whether the 1/n*A_0*h formula for volume of pyramids holds for all n 23:18:23 erm actually the simplex consists of the nonnegative points such that the sum of coordinates is less than or equal to 1 right 23:18:31 so it's trivial to do the integral 23:18:44 aha 23:18:58 well isn't it? 23:19:00 i mean 23:19:06 take one axis, let x go 0 to 1 23:19:28 then, on the second axis, you have used up x... stuff, so now you have from 0 to 1-y to use 23:19:57 (we'll take it as a given that any natural way to make a for-loop over the uncountable set of points gives us the right answer) 23:20:07 then 23:20:17 on the z axis you have 0 to 1-x-y left 23:20:32 and in "stuff, so now you have from 0 to 1-y to use", you have 0 to 1-x to use ofc, sorry 23:20:34 Prince_Charles: Because zero tolerance for fights at all. 23:20:53 pikhq, even if it was completely one-sided? 23:21:14 Prince_Charles: You shouldn't have worn such provocative clothing if you didn't want to be raped! 23:21:37 yeah if someone starts violently hitting his head against your fist, why should YOU get punished? 23:21:57 it occurs to me that all you nerds have been beaten up all your life and this is a really sensitive topic. 23:22:26 Actually, I've only been beaten up to any appreciable degree twice. 23:23:25 i would probably just count one beating a proper one 23:23:38 i have never been beaten up 23:23:42 at least involuntarily 23:23:43 i think i've only actually been physically beaten up once. 23:23:44 that time when i didn't pay the pizza delivery guys more money because they came two hours late 23:23:46 but many more threats. 23:23:48 let's fight, oklopol 23:23:48 and they beat me up 23:23:51 And both of those were just being punched in the face. 23:24:09 oh i've been punched in the face a lot of times 23:24:49 quintopia: i'm not interested, to be honest 23:24:50 Prince_Charles: Wimp, mine was being picked up roughly, dragged on the ground and carried indoors where I was shoved into a cupboard which was slammed shut. 23:24:59 (Okay, so being punched in the face was probably more _painful_.) 23:25:08 oklopol: btw i don't consider this a sensitive topic :P 23:25:12 elliott, yeah, but that's because you're an ENGLISH PANSY 23:25:29 haha yeah elliott is a fag 23:25:30 somehow i actually managed to forget it happened until nighttime xD 23:25:36 oklopol: MY HOMOSEXUALITY ON THE OTHER HAND 23:26:23 elliott: you mean you were in the cupboard all day, thinking about your latest OS project, and 8 hours later OH MY GOD THEY LOCKED ME IN A CUPBOARD! 23:26:29 up 23:26:32 xD 23:26:37 i was like six 23:26:49 i don't think the cupboard actually locked 23:26:52 it was pretty small though 23:27:35 elliott is so gay, he has consensual sex with other men and enjoys it. 23:27:45 just because i'm gay doesn't mean i'm a fag. 23:27:51 JUST BECAUSE I'M GAY DOESN'T MEAN I'M HOMOSEXUAL 23:27:58 just because i'm homosexual 23:28:00 doesn't mean i have sex with men. 23:28:06 i'm not gonna touch that subject...that's a faggot-over-a-load for sure :P 23:28:08 ...i'm also a paedophile 23:28:16 get it 23:28:17 MEN 23:28:42 if i get it, it's not very funny, so please explain 23:29:07 hmm, it occurs to me that i have beer next to me 23:29:14 maybe i could get drunk now that i'm here 23:29:29 then i'd be all like 23:29:31 beer is good 23:29:33 LOL I'M SOOOOOOOOOO DURNK 23:29:39 HAHAA EVERYTHINGSPINNING 23:29:40 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:29:54 ^ that's what i'd be like 23:30:09 no 23:30:09 well not the kind of like that leaves the channel i meant what i said. 23:30:12 no you wouldn't 23:30:17 i wouldn't? 23:30:23 you couldn't fit that much beer in your intestines 23:30:27 try hard liquor if you want that 23:30:35 if i get it, it's not very funny, so please explain 23:30:39 see if i'm a gay paedophile 23:30:43 i don't have sex with men 23:30:47 i have sex with BOYS 23:30:49 right 23:30:52 Elliott Hird ehird google 23:30:57 #esoteric irc logs 23:30:59 elliott hird cv 23:31:05 that's what i got 23:31:08 (just making sure google finds this when future employers googlestalk me) 23:31:20 Elliott Hird programmer 23:31:23 figured that's what it was 23:31:24 -!- Behold has joined. 23:32:31 DAMMIT I'M ON THE SEX OFFENDERS REGISTER 23:32:45 you have one in the uk? 23:33:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:33:37 i'll probably have to disconnect soon and never return 23:33:48 elliott: also best we put it in the qdb 23:34:01 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 23:34:08 oklopol, yes, because blanket life sentences are a great idea. 23:34:33 `addquote just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile 23:34:43 wow that is the most faily way to quote it ever 23:34:50 323) just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile 23:34:52 figured you say that 23:35:05 but the lamer thing would be to say three times 23:35:06 `delquote 323 23:35:07 `addquote just because i'm homosexual doesn't mean i have sex with men. ...i'm also a paedophile [...] see if i'm a gay paedophile i don't have sex with men i have sex with BOYS 23:35:08 *poof* 23:35:10 324) just because i'm homosexual doesn't mean i have sex with men. ...i'm also a paedophile [...] see if i'm a gay paedophile i don't have sex with men i have sex with BOYS 23:35:18 `quote 323 23:35:20 323) just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile 23:35:23 `delquote 323 23:35:24 *poof* 23:35:33 also all that extra stuff you added is irrelevant 23:35:39 you are really bad at quoting 23:36:32 no the extra stuff makes it good, because the actual joke was really stupid 23:36:53 no, we don't want it to look like a joke 23:37:02 we want the qdb to reflect that he is a gay paedophile 23:37:04 good point 23:39:23 actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia 23:39:56 xD 23:40:07 i love how that makes no sense 23:40:23 makes perfect sense 23:40:31 and is far funnier than the actual joke 23:41:10 `addquote actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia 23:41:12 331) actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia 23:41:26 masturbation being gay is a very old joke, probably from the bible 23:41:53 yes, but the idea that he is so small he's childlike is a nice new spin 23:42:10 `quote 323 23:42:11 323) <<<<<<< /tmp/hackenv.22235/quotes 23:42:19 what does that even mean? 23:42:38 quintopia: well i am pretty damn tiny yes 23:42:39 also LOL 23:42:41 Gregor: ^ 23:42:44 quintopia: the hg merge failed 23:42:47 so the quotes file now has merging shit in it 23:42:48 `quote 324 23:42:49 324) <<<<<<< /tmp/hackenv.22235/quotes 23:42:51 `quote 325 23:42:52 325) ======= 23:42:53 `quote 326 23:42:54 `quote 327 23:42:54 326) just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile 23:42:54 `quote 328 23:42:56 327) ======= 23:42:56 328) >>>>>>> /tmp/quotes~other.jicWNf 23:42:59 bahahaha 23:43:07 idgi 23:43:11 `quote 330 23:43:12 330) >>>>>>> /tmp/quotes~other.XV8QqK 23:43:24 `quote 329 23:43:24 329) just because i'm homosexual doesn't mean i have sex with men. ...i'm also a paedophile [...] see if i'm a gay paedophile i don't have sex with men i have sex with BOYS 23:43:32 oh 23:43:37 elliott explained already 23:43:38 `delquote 323 23:43:39 *poof* 23:43:41 `delquote 323 23:43:42 *poof* 23:43:44 `delquote 323 23:43:45 *poof* 23:43:47 `delquote 323 23:43:51 *poof* 23:43:54 `quote 323 23:43:55 323) just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile 23:43:58 `quote 323 23:43:59 323) just because i'm homosexual / doesn't mean i have sex with men. / ...i'm also a paedophile 23:44:01 `delquote 323 23:44:02 *poof* 23:44:04 `delquote 323 23:44:05 *poof* 23:44:13 `quote 323 23:44:14 323) >>>>>>> /tmp/quotes~other.jicWNf 23:44:16 lol 23:44:20 whoops 23:44:26 one more i guess 23:44:27 `quote 323 23:44:28 323) >>>>>>> /tmp/quotes~other.jicWNf 23:44:29 `delquote 323 23:44:31 *poof* 23:44:33 `quote 323 23:44:36 323) just because i'm homosexual doesn't mean i have sex with men. ...i'm also a paedophile [...] see if i'm a gay paedophile i don't have sex with men i have sex with BOYS 23:44:41 `delquote 324 23:44:42 *poof* 23:44:47 `quote 324 23:44:49 324) actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia 23:44:53 kk 23:47:31 anyone in turku? i'd like some coke 23:48:05 `quote 325 23:48:05 No output. 23:50:23 Are you saying you didn't like those quotes? 23:50:28 I thought they were great quotes. 23:50:29 oklopol: define coke 23:50:54 meh 23:51:06 * Gregor goes to drink some meh. 23:51:26 FROM THIS MOMENT ON, EVERY TIME I SAY COKE I SHALL MEAN COCA COLA IN THE ONLY FUCKING SENSE OF THE WORD 23:51:37 i decided to do it 23:52:56 There's a fucking sense of "COCA COLA"? Some kind of sex act? 23:53:14 Gregor, well, there is that myth that it's a contraceptive... 23:53:21 lawl, so there is 23:53:25 is there a mythbusters episode? 23:53:40 X-D 23:53:49 I think they mentioned it in their cola myths episode. 23:53:50 OH WAIT 23:53:53 THERE TOTALLY IS 23:53:56 They tested it! 23:53:57 but did they have sex 23:54:00 what? :D 23:54:00 No 23:54:08 okay 23:54:09 They mixed coke with sperm :P 23:54:12 I think it was Adam's. 23:54:15 bleh. 23:54:22 that proves nothing 23:54:38 oklopol, well, it does if the sperm survive. 23:54:40 I think it was always thought to be a spermicide, not some more general contraceptive. 23:55:56 well, did it work? 23:56:18 No, unless Adam's sperm are significantly less robust than average. 23:56:25 IIRC, the sperm seemed to like the Coke :P 23:56:47 * elliott injects coke into his testicles 23:56:51 i've always wanted to make love in a tub full of coke 23:56:52 They would, it's full of sugar. 23:57:04 -!- elliott has left (?). 23:57:07 -!- elliott has joined. 23:57:12 oklopol: "make love" WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE REAL OKLOPOL 23:57:21 oklopol, are these the artistic differences that led to you and your girlfriend breaking up? 23:57:42 i felt like it was the appropriate word for inserting penis in vagina in coke 23:57:57 Prince_Charles: yes, she prefers sprite 23:58:27 "The ONLY soft drink I will have sex with you in is Sprite!" "THEN WE'RE THROUGH!" 23:58:44 Gregor: Seems like Coke's acidity, at least, would be a bit much. 23:58:49 yes, we tried fanta, but that didn't work AT ALL. 23:59:18 pikhq, ISTR that there was a study showing that it is nearly useless as a spermicide 23:59:20 (is fanta international?) 23:59:30 oklopol, well, we have it here. 23:59:36 `addquote * elliott injects coke into his testicles 23:59:37 that's what i thought 23:59:37 325) * elliott injects coke into his testicles