←2011-03-04 2011-03-05 2011-03-06→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:11:53 <elliott> Hmm, can I tell nasm to generate a 32-bit mov instruction in 16-bit code? :P
00:11:59 <elliott> As in, the same mov it'd use when using "bits 32"...
00:21:29 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:24:00 <fizzie> What's it for?
00:24:13 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:24:41 <fizzie> You can just "bits 32; mov blah; bits 16" to get exactly that, but it doesn't sound like a thing that'd usually make sense.
00:25:13 <elliott> fizzie: For "not-actually-protected" mode X-D
00:25:21 <elliott> ais523: argh, why isn't vi the same as your conception of vi?
00:26:00 <elliott> I'm trying to do c^
00:26:02 <elliott> which isn't working
00:26:12 <Ilari> Uh, oh: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/030411-ipv6-home-routers.html
00:26:30 <ais523> elliott: because ais523-mental-vi is like anything of zzo38's
00:26:50 <elliott> ais523: but c^ makes _sense_!
00:27:09 <ais523> so does zzo38's stuff, it just doesn't fit existing practice
00:27:44 <elliott> ais523: I want to live in a world where c^ works; I'm deathly afraid that one day I will live in zzo38's world.
00:27:56 <elliott> I suspect that this holds true of anyone who (1) isn't zzo38; and (2) uses vi a lot.
00:28:04 <elliott> Or at least they wouldn't think it _bad_ if c^ worked.
00:28:30 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
00:29:15 <ais523> what does it do instead?
00:29:18 <elliott> ais523: nothing
00:29:25 <ais523> hmm, how logical
00:29:34 <elliott> I'm secretly waiting for Gregor or some other vim user to pop up with "oh, just use X" so I can get this done
00:29:40 -!- jcp has joined.
00:30:18 <fizzie> Ilari: Friend-of-a-friend who apparently works in related field told that one big reason why no IPv6 on consumer routers is that (to save on the CPU power they need) they offload quite a bit of processing to the network chipset, and the hard/firm/software for those (Broadcom was specifically named as a culprit) is very much IPv6 only; so it doesn't really help that it's a Linux-based box, since the whole IPv6 side would work on software only, and they don't hav
00:30:18 <fizzie> e enough MIPS to do that on link speeds.
00:30:18 <ais523> does d^ work?
00:30:25 <ais523> and if it does, could you use d^i as a replacement?
00:30:48 <fizzie> s/IPv6 only/IPv4 only/
00:30:51 <elliott> ais523: no, it doesn't
00:31:04 <elliott> ch does, though, so it's not like you can't replace behind you
00:31:32 <Ilari> Wonder if DSL modem I have could do IPv6. It is in bridging mode after all.
00:31:38 <elliott> oh well, did it the proper way with s// instead :)
00:31:40 <elliott> *s///
00:33:01 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
00:35:46 <Ilari> Routing mode surely not, but bridging mode might be another matter.
00:36:07 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:42:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:43:34 <pikhq> Okay, rewired things more cleanly and got rid of dust...
00:45:33 <fizzie> Ilari: The one I have (ZyXEL P660-something) passes IPv6 just fine when bridging, at least. But that's not surprising, it's pretty much a layer 2 device only in that mode.
00:45:58 <pikhq> And I can conclude from SMART that my hard drive is not at risk of failure. However, if my system gets too hot again, I am going to need a new case.
00:46:32 <Ilari> Some overly "smart" modems filter IPv6 (among everything else non-IPv4).
00:49:07 <ais523> pikhq: ah, it was an overheat?
00:49:20 <pikhq> ais523: When I shut my system down it was at 56°C.
00:49:25 <pikhq> *The hard drive*.
00:49:27 <ais523> ouch
00:49:39 <ais523> don't they start losing data at 52?
00:49:50 <ais523> or did I misremember that?
00:50:06 <pikhq> Well, SMART shows 0 bad blocks.
00:50:10 <Ilari> Not that low. But hard drives don't like high temperatures.
00:50:27 <pikhq> But it was apparently causing issues seeking.
00:50:41 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:51:44 <pikhq> My hard drive has so spun up 72 times.
00:51:55 <pikhq> Seems a bit young to start failing.
00:52:43 <Ilari> Why it even overheats?
00:53:12 <pikhq> Bad case.
00:53:14 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:54:44 <pikhq> And it doesn't help matters any that my home filesystem is approx. insanely fragmented right now.
00:56:36 <Ilari> Hmm... Accoding to extended stats file: Total APNIC address space: 866 929 152 addresses (51.67 blocks). Free space: 66 832 128 (3.98 blocks). 92.29% depleted.
00:59:04 <Ilari> Accoding to the pie graph on APNIC site: 51.58 blocks total, 3.89 blocks free. 92.5% depleted.
01:00:02 <Ilari> The entiere APNIC free pool would fit in a /6.
01:07:22 <oerjan> <elliott> I'm trying to do c^<-- works fine in vim...
01:08:18 <elliott> oerjan: really?
01:08:22 <elliott> maybe it's because i was in vi mode
01:08:32 <elliott> yay, set nocp makes it work!
01:08:36 <elliott> that's why child porn is immoral.
01:08:59 <ais523> what sort of compatibility mode would stop a command working and replace it with nothing?
01:09:21 <elliott> ais523: vim in compatibility mode is really strictly vi
01:09:27 <elliott> for instance, : has no command completion
01:09:38 <elliott> "set nocp" basically turns vim into vim :P
01:16:00 <pikhq> Shame I don't have a terabyte drive handy.
01:16:19 <oerjan> how terable
01:16:19 <ais523> hmm, according to Reddit, PHP's ?: operator has broken associativity
01:16:25 <pikhq> As far as I'm aware, the only real way to "defragment" a filesystem is a mass copy to an empty filesystem.
01:16:35 <ais523> so instead of doing a ? "a" : b ? "b" : c ? "c" : d or whatever
01:16:35 <pikhq> At least, on Linux.
01:16:47 <ais523> you have to write it a ? b ? c ? "c" : d : b : a
01:16:56 <ais523> umm, a ? b ? c ? "c" : d : "b" : "a"
01:17:02 <pikhq> Aaaand because this filesystem here has been near-full at several different points, I have uberfragmentation.
01:17:10 <ais523> because I really screwed up my metasyntactic stuff there
01:17:43 -!- elliott_ has joined.
01:17:50 <elliott_> nice
01:17:52 <elliott_> chat.freenode.net doesn't work
01:17:54 <elliott_> irc.freenode.net does
01:17:56 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
01:17:58 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
01:18:03 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
01:18:03 -!- elliott has joined.
01:19:44 <pikhq> A mere 111 GiB free in my volume group ATM...
01:20:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:21:08 -!- javawizard has joined.
01:22:00 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
01:24:32 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:27:49 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split).
01:27:49 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
01:27:49 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split).
01:27:51 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp.
01:28:40 -!- ineiros has joined.
01:28:57 -!- dbc has joined.
01:39:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:40:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
01:49:53 <Sgeo> elliott, do you think I should try Linux From Scratch?
01:54:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:24:29 <cheater00> I͞͞ ̷́a͏m͟͝ ͜͝t̢h͠e̴ e̕͘l҉e̕͝c͘҉t̀͏r̢o͡͡ń̴i͝c҉ ̷̸in̸̷͟car͜n͢á̕t̛io͘n̴̷ ͟͜o̧f̢ ̴̛th̴͞͝é́̕ ̀ć́͠há͡o̸̸̧s̕͢ fo̵r͘͝m̴͡ì̢̡n͜͝g͟͡ ͏͝ţh͏̵e͜͠ ̀h̀͏̵i̴̧ve͜͞m͏i͘nd̶͞ ҉
02:43:48 <pikhq> Theatrical rereleases of the Star Wars movies...
02:43:55 <pikhq> Starting with The Phantom Menace.
02:44:00 <pikhq> Seriously, that's the one you start with?
02:44:16 <pikhq> The one that people would rather jab out their eyes than see a second time?
02:44:53 <elliott> :D
02:45:05 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and it's a 3D conversion.
02:45:05 <elliott> Hmm, how can I tell what inetd-alike I have installed on Debian
02:45:11 <elliott> pikhq: Eurgh.
02:45:15 <elliott> Fuck 3D.
02:45:39 <pikhq> "Standard" 3D shooting is just a bit of a silly gimmick.
02:46:06 <pikhq> 3D *conversion* is just sending a two-year-old with crayons into an art gallery.
02:47:24 <pikhq> In the case of the prequels, an art gallery displaying someone throwing shit at a canvas, mind, but still.
02:47:43 <elliott> pikhq: The Minecraft soundtrack is out and it is amazing.
02:47:58 <elliott> s/soundtrack/WITH MUSIC FROM, AND MUSIC INSPIRED BY,/
02:48:38 <pikhq> And would it *kill* Lucas to freaking give a proper, unedited release to the original trilogy?
02:49:07 <pikhq> Literally the best extant copies are Laserdisc.
02:49:38 <pikhq> (okay, and a rip of the Laserdisc which got put on DVD, as a special feature on a 2008 DVD release)
02:59:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:01:34 <elliott> 00014592522i[CPU0 ] LOCK prefix unallowed (op1=0x46, attr=0x0, mod=0x0, nnn=0)
03:01:35 <elliott> 00014592537i[CPU0 ] LOCK prefix unallowed (op1=0x46, attr=0x0, mod=0x0, nnn=0)
03:01:35 <elliott> Argh
03:01:43 <elliott> Do you still have to fuck with segments in unreal mode? :P
03:01:54 <pikhq> And I *seem* to have magically fixed my cooling problems.
03:02:33 <pikhq> Okay, not so much "magic"; I did get rid of dust and work hard to improve airflow.
03:05:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:08:20 <Ilari> elliott: What instruction are you trying to use LOCK with and why?
03:08:31 <elliott> Ilari: None :-P
03:08:36 <elliott> I suspect the BIOS is.
03:08:47 <elliott> At least I like to blame all my problems on the BIOS.
03:08:49 <Ilari> Well, what instruction is it complaining about?
03:09:02 <elliott> Good question, good question, I guess it's time to figure out how Bochs' debugger works
03:09:47 <elliott> Ilari: sti.
03:09:49 <elliott> How strange.
03:09:59 <elliott> Ilari: In fairness, I'm doing something that I am pretty sure you are not allowed to do
03:10:18 <elliott> (Loading a GDT, setting the segment registers, then jumping into the code segment, but with 16-bit code.)
03:10:21 <elliott> (And without turning on protection.)
03:10:24 <elliott> Actually,
03:10:30 <elliott> it is probably interpreting my code as 32 bits...
03:10:44 <elliott> I wonder what that will mean, if I do not change cr0?!
03:11:16 <Ilari> op1=0x46? That would be INC (E)SI?
03:12:04 <elliott> Ilari: Well, like I said, 32-bit code segment, 16-bit code, is my bug...
03:12:30 <elliott> But now I'm busy wondering what it means to turn off A20, load a GDT, and jump into a 32-bit code segment, without ever flicking protection on in cr0.
03:12:49 <Ilari> AFAIK, how many bits the code has is determined by loaded CS segment descriptor.
03:13:06 <Ilari> And there's no way to load a 32-bit one in real mode.
03:13:21 <pikhq> elliott: A 32-bit code segment will often break in the BIOS, because it won't try to reload the high 16 bits of the instruction pointer at all.
03:13:27 <Ilari> Not even the way 32-bit data selectors can be active in real mode.
03:13:35 <elliott> pikhq: I didn't even have "bits 32" :P
03:13:59 <elliott> Ilari: Sure, but I've loaded a GDT. Or are you saying that segments will still be loaded in the real mode style, even with a GDT loaded, because the CR0 flag is not set?
03:14:07 <elliott> And so I jump into -- pwzoom -- hyperspace?
03:14:38 <Ilari> I don't think x86 uses GDT in real mode at all.
03:15:33 <elliott> Right.
03:16:03 <Ilari> Actually, it can't because the way GDT works is totally incompatible with real-mode addressing.
03:18:16 <Ilari> Things like 0x0042 and 0x0043 both loading the same descriptor, etc.
03:19:51 <Ilari> So as far as I know, all code in real mode is 16 bits.
03:20:05 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:20:21 <zzo38> I might have broke something in my OpenID (even though I didn't change it).
03:21:51 <elliott> Don't not change it, then.
03:22:16 <elliott> Ilari: Really what I want is a protected mode that can access the BIOS :P
03:22:27 <variable> elliott: not going to happen?
03:22:31 <variable> :-p
03:22:36 <elliott> variable: Yeah, but it's what I *want*.
03:22:45 <elliott> variable: I'm trying to pack this into 510 bytes!
03:23:20 <variable> anyone know a better word than "Extracurricular activities" to describe things like ACM participation for a resume?
03:23:30 <elliott> Hmm, storing 6 bits of ascii-64 gives me 5 characters with two bits left over...
03:23:44 <elliott> variable: Academic associations?
03:23:49 <elliott> Alliterative anchovies?
03:24:00 <elliott> Autopsycal avarice?
03:24:07 <elliott> Bananagram boosters?
03:24:55 <elliott> @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~\x7f
03:24:58 <elliott> Gah, no exclamation mark
03:25:08 <zzo38> As it turns out, I can still login to Hackiki.
03:25:34 <zzo38> elliott: Then you wouldd have to add a code that makes \x7f to ! and that would make it too large
03:26:03 <elliott> zzo38: Indeed.
03:26:07 <zzo38> Or, the other way, move the starting number backward a bit and omit the lowercase letters
03:26:11 <elliott> It seems that talking to the keyboard directly and doing my own translation is the most prudent, perhaps.
03:28:03 <zzo38> So instead of starting at @ you go !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_
03:28:11 <zzo38> Which means also you have numbers, which is also important.
03:29:18 <elliott> zzo38: Actually I do not need numbers.
03:29:25 <elliott> This is only for regular words.
03:29:52 <zzo38> But what about such words as 2DUP and stuff like that?
03:30:42 <zzo38> When I try to login on my own OpenID consumer I get the error message "Call to a member function on a non-object in f:\\html\\openid\\Auth\\OpenID\\Server.php" do you know what is wrong with this?
03:31:26 <elliott> It means you're using Windows to host a server, and that's wrong
03:31:29 <elliott> *wrong.
03:33:02 <zzo38> It works everywhere else, just not on my own! I think I might have programmed the consumer program incorrectly!
03:35:22 <pikhq> elliott: Seems that what you'll need to do is actually go *fully* into protected mode before you have unreal mode running.
03:35:43 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but unreal mode would end up more code than just talking to the keyboard directly in protected mode, I think, especially because I have to do the packing manually _anyway_.
03:35:57 <elliott> I have immense doubts this shit will work.
03:36:25 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
03:36:37 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, to get unreal mode you should just need to set and unset CR0.
03:36:56 <pikhq> I think.
03:36:59 <elliott> pikhq: I'm saying that the BIOS isn't useful enough to make the extra bytes there pay off.
03:37:05 <pikhq> Ah.
03:37:17 <elliott> Admittedly though 16-bit code would be smaller.
03:37:18 <elliott> Woot, works in bochs but not qemu
03:37:22 <elliott> I'll work on the assumption that qemu is borked
03:37:30 <pikhq> Which is generally safe.
03:37:35 <elliott> pikhq: ?
03:37:44 <pikhq> elliott: A generally safe assumption.
03:37:47 <elliott> Right.
03:38:17 <Ilari> Heh. Isn't the VGABIOS Bochs uses from qemu?
03:38:36 <elliott> Dunno. All I know is that my screen writes aren't appearing in qemu.
03:38:51 <elliott> Maybe it doesn't think that modifying the GDT between two segment loads is the kind of thing a sane virtual machine should support.
03:38:53 <Ilari> And that VGABIOS is borked.
03:39:23 <Ilari> That has perfectly sane semantics.
03:39:50 <pikhq> Ilari: qemu often makes shortcuts in its emulation, though.
03:40:15 <pikhq> It's not so much an x86 emulator as it is an emulator of the subset of x86 that common OSes use.
03:40:18 <elliott> <Ilari> And that VGABIOS is borked.
03:40:19 <elliott> It is?
03:40:23 <elliott> Got a better one? :P
03:40:38 <elliott> pikhq: If only common OSes weren't painfully slow in qemu :P
03:40:47 <pikhq> elliott: Compare with bochs.
03:40:55 <elliott> pikhq: Compare with VirtualBox :P But yeah.
03:41:02 <elliott> (I realise VB wasn't out at the time.)
03:41:39 <pikhq> And qemu doesn't implement its emulation in a way that it can take advantage of x86-on-x86-ness...
03:41:59 <elliott> Indeed.
03:42:11 <pikhq> IIRC, it bytecode-compiles all the architectures it supports into a single bytecode, and then JITs that.
03:42:24 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:42:46 <elliott> Gahh, it seems like the keyboard is sending separate key-down and key-up requests. Well. I knew that.
03:42:57 <elliott> But it's still irritating.
03:43:03 <zzo38> I found the problem with OpenID. The problem was the trust URL and return URL did not agree with each other.
03:44:50 <Sgeo> My browser hallucinated that LFS said to use kernel 2.6.35
03:45:14 <elliott> Hmm.
03:45:19 <elliott> Which bit controls keydown vs keyup in a scancode
03:45:20 <elliott> ?
03:47:25 <Ilari> elliott: Bit 7 is clear on keydown, set on keyup (except for E0/E1 bytes).
03:47:38 <Ilari> E0/E1s are always E0 / E1.
03:47:47 <elliott> Ilari: You are a veritable font of knowledge. (What's E0/E1?)
03:47:57 <Sgeo> Awesome
03:48:08 <Sgeo> I started doing stuff JUST as LFS gets updated to 6.8
03:48:10 <Ilari> E0 is prefix for 2-byte keycode (E1 is 3-byte).
03:48:10 <elliott> What. The. Fuck... my keyboard code only works if I write to VGA memory in the poll-keyboard loop.
03:48:16 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
03:48:25 <elliott> It's not about cycle timing, adding in a "nop" doesn't make it work.
03:48:34 <elliott> And if I keep typing with the broken code the keyboard buffer fills up.
03:48:43 <Sgeo> elliott, I am entertaining the LFS people
03:48:50 <elliott> My bet is: Bochs only updates the keyboard controller when some "system" stuff is accessed, e.g. BIOS, interrupts, or say VGA memory.
03:48:55 <elliott> And since I have interrupts disabled...
03:49:09 <Ilari> Like Enter is 0x1C(0x9C), keypad enter is 0xE0 0x1C (0xE0 0x9C).
03:50:53 <pikhq> elliott: Perhaps it's simply not assuming anyone would actually directly poll the keyboard?
03:51:01 <elliott> pikhq: WHYEVER NOT
03:51:13 <elliott> Well DOS didn't use HLT.
03:51:18 <elliott> So it was in *some* kind of busy loop.
03:52:18 <elliott> WTF.
03:52:23 <Zwaarddijk> absinthe is terribl
03:52:23 <elliott> Not every write to VGA ram works.
03:52:41 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: terribl indeed
03:54:23 <Ilari> What about DOSBox? It has its own BIOS and AFAIK can load disk images.
03:56:06 <Zwaarddijk> gah
03:56:10 <Ilari> Yup. IMGMOUNT and BOOT.
03:56:26 <Zwaarddijk> there's terrible lag between the srever my irc is on and my home computer :|
03:56:43 <Zwaarddijk> so I actually thought I was writing that in another channel, in response to a thing :|
03:57:35 <elliott> Ilari: heh, that sounds like fun
03:57:42 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: oh. i assumed you were drunk on absinthe
03:58:17 <Zwaarddijk> no, I avoid that like the plague
03:58:49 <pikhq> Oh, can't be much worse than any other hard liquor.
04:00:11 <Ilari> Ah, you don't need IMGMOUNT, just BOOT.
04:00:20 <Ilari> 'BOOT <imagefile>'.
04:08:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
04:10:21 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:12:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:18:52 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:23:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:23:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:23:59 <Sgeo> Compiling binutils :D
04:25:56 <Sgeo> I'm probably going to need to sleep while it runs
04:37:39 <variable> Sgeo: :-\
04:37:51 <Sgeo> It finished
04:38:19 <Sgeo> Took 11min
04:41:17 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:51:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:58:49 <pikhq> Lectures on Youtbe > TV
04:58:53 <pikhq> Youtube, even.
05:03:04 <Mathnerd314> hmm... I want to try NixOS, but LFS or Arch looks easier
05:03:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
05:03:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:03:58 <Mathnerd314> clearly I should learn more about package management
05:06:09 <zzo38> Look at this: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texwiki/view.php/0
05:09:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, have you ever done Linux From Scratch?
05:09:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have been planning to do so.
05:09:47 <zzo38> I will do so when I get another computer.
05:09:56 * Sgeo is doing it in VirtualBox
05:12:59 <zzo38> Would you like to try stuff with this wiki?
05:13:25 <Sgeo> hmm?
05:14:14 * Sgeo doesn't want to be owned
05:14:45 <zzo38> That "I own you!" is just something I put for testing... that file is not locked, so anyone with account can modify it.
05:15:01 <zzo38> (Select "[Admin]" to check if a file is locked.)
05:15:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:17:28 <zzo38> It no longer says "I own you!" Now it says "I invented this wiki."
05:20:30 <zzo38> Now what do you think of it?
05:20:37 -!- augur has joined.
05:27:09 <Sgeo> I think I need sleep
05:27:53 <zzo38> OK, probably I will sleep too.
05:28:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: now sleep).
05:47:29 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
06:11:24 <pikhq_> Man. It is *really* nice not having to do mental gymnastics just to accept both professed faith and reasonable scientific observations as true.
06:26:03 <Ilari> Haha.
06:28:47 <pikhq_> Nicer still to not have to do mental gymnastics just to accept chapter 1 and chapter 2 of the same damned book simultaneously. :P
06:37:06 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:37:50 -!- cheater00 has joined.
07:03:20 -!- zeotrope has joined.
07:14:42 -!- asiekierka has joined.
07:37:12 -!- mtve has joined.
07:37:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
07:40:04 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
07:41:40 -!- cheater00 has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:18:24 <olsner> <elliott> but still, I'll ping olsner to ask about my insane idea :)
08:18:31 <olsner> and now he's gone, great
08:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the insane idea?
08:20:28 <olsner> dunno
08:23:50 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
08:27:48 <olsner> he doesn't seem to mention it anywhere near the line where he pings me, somewhat uselessly
09:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Really? The site gave me an enormously difficult trig differential. Something like d/dx 2 sin(2x). Maybe you and I have different definitions of "simple"?]]
09:13:05 <olsner> hmm, that is an easy one, right?
09:16:15 <fizzie> Yes, it's just 4 cos 2x.
09:17:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:18:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:20:22 <olsner> phew, then I got it right
09:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It's how one considers there to be easy trig differentials if that is tremendously difficult that puzzles me.
09:32:21 <fizzie> I think it's "(enormously difficult, trig) differential" there, not "enormously difficult (trig differential)".
09:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.imgur.com/UEMQw.png
09:32:55 <Phantom_Hoover> XD
09:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (That CAPTCHA thing is a bit iffy, though: there's only one variable, so I think they're just using the partial d to confuse people.)
09:36:30 <fizzie> Which captcha thing is this?
09:36:34 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:37:30 -!- cheater00 has joined.
09:37:31 -!- FireFly has joined.
09:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It gives you a relatively simple derivative and asks you to solve it.
09:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It's for a quantum random generator thing.
09:48:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:03:08 <Lymia_> Phantom_Hoover, good way to keep out a large portion of the human popluation!
10:06:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:17:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:19:18 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:43:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
10:43:33 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
10:55:49 -!- leonid has joined.
10:56:02 <leonid> hello
10:56:06 <leonid> i'm going to livestream my codegolfing
10:56:13 <leonid> i'm going to golf in ruby and python
10:56:15 <leonid> anyone interested?
11:09:20 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:25:32 <leonid> http://www.livestream.com/leonid
11:28:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Guess what happened to my laptop again?
11:33:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
11:37:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:38:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:44:35 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:45:21 <oerjan> <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and it's a 3D conversion.
11:45:27 <oerjan> now even more jar-jarring
11:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> 02:03:08 <Lymia_> Phantom_Hoover, good way to keep out a large portion of the human popluation!
11:48:46 <Lymia_> Hey!
11:48:50 <Lymia_> There are times where you'd want that.
11:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And, with irony the likes of which has not been seen since that guy was crushed to death in a church while thanking God for saving his life, it allows most computers in.
11:51:50 <Lymia_> Is it polynomial-derivative level easy?
11:52:01 <Lymia_> I suppose you could complicate OCR enough to make that the main challenge.
11:52:09 <Lymia_> As opposed to the actual mathematics.
11:52:34 <Phantom_Hoover> You could, but it's beautifully rendered LaTeX.
11:53:08 <Lymia_> Hah
11:53:16 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia.
11:53:19 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
11:53:19 -!- Lymia has joined.
11:53:27 <Lymia> How complex are the derivatives in question.
11:53:33 <oerjan> Lymia_: you cannot make a hard derivative with common functions.
11:53:54 <oerjan> it's a simple mechanical process, even for humans.
11:54:23 <oerjan> now integrals are worse - but still computers would beat humans by far
11:54:50 <oerjan> this is the kind of captcha that can only work because spammers would never bother to target it.
11:56:58 <oerjan> of course people who's brains don't really comprehend math could still consider a derivative difficult
11:57:02 <oerjan> *whose
11:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia: have you considered grouping Lymia_ with Lymia?
11:59:04 * oerjan recommends that
12:01:34 <cheater00> oerjan: what's better, coq or agda
12:02:15 <oerjan> i haven't used either, but elliott would say coq is better i think
12:02:39 <cheater00> i'm not sure i want to think about what elliott would say
12:02:47 <oerjan> agda being too badly designed
12:02:52 <cheater00> aha
12:03:47 <oerjan> iirc, agda is a dependent programming language that pretends to be a theorem prover without giving any of the convenience for it that coq does
12:04:28 <oerjan> also i said elliott because he is the first person here that i remember has been interested in them
12:05:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:05:31 <cheater00> i think ais did all that earlier
12:05:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:05:53 <oerjan> cheater00: that would be so like him :D
12:06:03 <oerjan> note: proving things in coq is _still_, afaiu, a lot of work.
12:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, Agda doesn't really pretend to be a theorem prover as much as idiots make it out to be one.
12:06:51 <oerjan> ok
12:07:32 <oerjan> clearly ais523 did it earlier, and then implemented it in hardware
12:07:51 <cheater00> no, he first implemented hardware in it
12:07:59 <oerjan> ...maybe.
12:08:05 <cheater00> then took the software and implemented the software implementing hardware in hardware.
12:08:16 <oerjan> MY BRAIN!
12:08:34 <cheater00> and then, this hardware was running software.
12:08:52 <cheater00> and it was a br*infuck virtual machine.
12:09:06 <oerjan> and then he woke up.
12:09:20 <oerjan> that's the only logical conclusion to that scenario.
12:10:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you talking about Feather/
12:11:30 <cheater00> oerjan: no, because according to the technological singularity theory, YOU are a computer program running inside that bf VM
12:11:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i wasn't, but you're obviously correct.
12:12:06 <cheater00> so you're being dreamt of, in fact, you're just an episodic nightmare ^^
12:12:22 <cheater00> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_Singularity
12:12:52 <oerjan> cheater00: sounds too likely for comfort.
12:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I retroactively told myself the right answer.
12:15:13 <cheater00> oerjan: basically the omega point theory says that at some point the humanity reaches the ability to simulate everything we ourselves see as the universe. the whole real universe is then converted into a molecular computer.
12:15:41 <cheater00> oerjan: then it goes on to calculate the probability of whether it's yet to happen or has already happened, and the probability it has is overwhelming ^^
12:16:19 <oerjan> cheater00: i also find it likely that something singularity-like has already happened
12:16:38 <cheater00> oerjan: no, it hasn't
12:16:44 <cheater00> but it's coming up - i'm going to the toilet
12:16:47 <oerjan> quite possibly before the universe was created
12:16:48 <cheater00> brace for impact.
12:18:16 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:18:52 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:38:17 <cheater00> oerjan: i always wondered what was before the big bang!
12:39:00 <cheater00> oerjan: was it just a singularity where all the wave functions went into destructive interference making the sum of all of them the theta vector?
12:39:16 <oerjan> well that goes without saying.
12:40:32 <cheater00> i wonder how the laws of physics might have looked "before the big bang"
12:40:50 <cheater00> but you know, we can't even prove that the laws of physics are the same in all of our universe
12:41:12 <cheater00> it might very well be that we humans are in some sort of invisible sphere and suddenly as you exit it gravity stops working or something like that
12:48:05 <cheater00> oerjan: i just don't understand people who use vim and put their esc key in the upper left corner of the keyboard.
12:52:41 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:54:23 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:54:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
13:22:06 -!- azaq23 has joined.
13:37:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:49:37 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Maintenance).
14:00:26 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
14:01:43 -!- cheater00 has joined.
14:28:38 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
14:29:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:54:46 -!- Deewiant has joined.
15:01:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "I don't think that Debian can really compete with Gentoo. Sure it might be okay, but when it comes to dependencies, you probably are still going to have to get them all on your own. Or is there something like portage in the Debian world as well?" — http://web.archive.org/web/20040603174302/http://funroll-loops.org/
15:26:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:32:53 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:33:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:36:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:37:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:47:57 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:58:35 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:58:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:17:27 <Mathnerd314> can't compete with NixOS
16:28:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:28:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:41:51 <nooga> i want DEC PDP-11/40 front panel!
16:42:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:52:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, says like the kind of thing I'd say if I knew little about anything other than Gentoo
16:52:22 <Sgeo> Except I wouldn't write it to an email list
16:53:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I'm assuming you would at least know the slightest thing about a rival OS before denigrating it.
16:53:47 <Sgeo> Hmm. I guess. I probably wouldn't include the insult
16:54:03 <Sgeo> Although I did recently insult HaXe due to a misunderstanding [I took it back though]
16:59:06 <Phantom_Hoover> HaXe?
17:07:02 <Sgeo> haxe.org
17:07:50 <olsner> "PHP : You can compile a haXe program to .php files." <- 'nuff said?
17:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Looks so bland I can't even pass judgement on it.
17:11:01 <olsner> it probably means something that the first page doesn't say anything about what it actually is
17:18:03 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:24:46 <nooga> i'm trying Arch
17:25:03 <nooga> gentoo is too problematic
17:25:23 <Sgeo> problematic how?
17:25:43 <nooga> my c2d laptop is too slow to compile everything
17:26:12 <nooga> i need a system up and usable for everyday tasks within less than 2 hours
17:26:26 <Sgeo> Ah.
17:26:28 <Sgeo> c2d?
17:26:44 <nooga> core 2 duo based laptop*
17:28:35 <nooga> i'd try gentoo on my pc
17:28:45 <nooga> with this new and shiny core i7
17:29:37 <nooga> but then the speed wouldn't be noticable since it has 24GB of RAM and SSD drives for system and recent data
17:29:45 <nooga> and everything works fast on it
17:29:46 <olsner> well, compiling will pretty much always take longer than not compiling
17:30:39 <nooga> even ubuntu in virtualbox under windows 7 runs fast on it
17:32:38 <Sgeo> And I thought I'd be happy with my 2GB of RAM
17:32:44 * Sgeo goes off into a corner
17:34:48 -!- elliott has joined.
17:37:03 <olsner> elliott: you were trying to say something about an "insane idea" earlier, so I'll just leave IRC now and read a book
17:37:11 <elliott> olsner: it didn't work
17:37:19 <elliott> olsner: i was going to try lgdt without changing cr0
17:37:23 <Sgeo> Was it an insane idea to be rid of me forever?
17:37:26 <elliott> but it seems that how segment loading works depends on cr0
17:38:45 <olsner> btw, I read that segment limits aren't actually reset by reloading segment registers in real mode
17:40:20 <nooga> elliott: what are you doing?
17:41:45 <elliott> nooga: trying to stuff forth into 510 bytes
17:41:55 <nooga> great
17:42:15 <nooga> yesterday i thought about implementing forth in asm
17:42:26 <elliott> well that's easy
17:42:33 <elliott> doing it in 510 bytes with no operating system is not
17:42:35 <elliott> (boot sector forth)
17:42:46 <nooga> but then it turned out i'm too lazy and started watching photos of DEC PDPs for several hours
17:44:42 <nooga> elliott: are you using an assembler?
17:44:47 <elliott> nooga: Um, yes, nasm.
17:44:56 <elliott> I'm not quite insane enough to write machine code by hand.
17:45:16 <Phantom_Hoover> DON'T USE NASM YOU'LL UPSET VORPAL
17:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> AT&T SYNTAX IS MUCH BETTEr
17:45:44 <nooga> elliott: it's just numbers
17:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> *BETTER
17:46:04 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, what's the point of doing that?
17:46:07 <elliott> nooga: Yes, but it's a lot easier to use an assembler. And it removes no power from me: I regularly read the listing files and tweak my code to shorten them.
17:46:18 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: ultimate haxorness feeling
17:46:19 <elliott> nooga: There's basically no advantage to writing in direct machine code.
17:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> nasm → machine code is a simple mechanical process.
17:46:29 <elliott> nooga: Oh, and nasm with -Ox does branch optimisation stuff.
17:46:36 <elliott> Which is a localised, but very useful, optimisation.
17:46:51 <elliott> (It just optimises branch offsets.)
17:46:55 <nooga> no, seriously, once i've build an OISC on a protoboard and set up 8 LEDs and 8 switches
17:47:03 <nooga> then i programmed it using the switches
17:47:03 <elliott> 10:40:54 <Lymia_> Phantom_Hoover, good way to keep out a large portion of the human popluation!
17:47:05 <elliott> oh
17:47:05 <nooga> it was so cool
17:47:06 <elliott> it's an underscore
17:47:09 <elliott> looked like a space in the logs
17:47:12 <elliott> (in lymia's nick)
17:48:01 <elliott> 12:43:21 <cheater00> i think ais did all that earlier
17:48:05 <elliott> um ais has done nothing with theorem proving systems at all.
17:48:15 <elliott> 12:43:52 <oerjan> note: proving things in coq is _still_, afaiu, a lot of work.
17:48:18 <elliott> well that's not really true.
17:48:29 <elliott> verifying functional libraries with it is rewarding.
17:48:32 <elliott> proving pure mathematical theorems is not
17:48:38 <elliott> (but it is hardware)
17:48:40 <elliott> ...
17:48:41 <elliott> (but it is possible)
17:48:47 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:50:02 <elliott> oh gosh, oerjan getting "schooled" (ignorant bullshitted) on TEH SIGNULARITY Y0 by cheater
17:50:07 <elliott> i hope this log ends soon
17:50:12 <nooga> elliott: are you limiting forth words somehow?
17:50:35 <elliott> 13:16:07 <cheater00> oerjan: i always wondered what was before the big bang!
17:50:35 <elliott> you and everyone else before they realised that's a stupid question.
17:50:37 <elliott> nooga: define limiting
17:52:05 <nooga> are you setting some limits on how such word should look like or rather permitting every string of characters without space
17:52:32 <nooga> and are you storing length or rather use null terminated words
17:52:59 <elliott> nooga: neither
17:53:06 <elliott> The name is going to fit into one 32-bit dword.
17:53:13 <nooga> ok, i see
17:53:16 <elliott> 5 bits per char = 6 chars in a name with two bits left over
17:53:19 <elliott> 5 bits = 32 choices
17:53:21 <nooga> sane
17:53:25 <elliott> = lowercase letters + 6 punctuation
17:53:30 <elliott> nooga: instead of storing the length, I'll 0-pad
17:53:35 <elliott> now, as I'm reading and translating scancodes
17:53:38 <elliott> the alphabet will be in scancode-order
17:53:43 <elliott> so it'll be padded out with zeroes which is the letter q
17:53:54 <elliott> so @ = @q = @qq = @qqq = @qqqq = @qqqqq
17:54:13 <elliott> nooga: I'm not sure how i'll read integers at this point
17:54:19 <nooga> nice
17:54:25 <elliott> I don't know how normal Forth behaves when you tell it to read a word and you give it some digits
17:54:28 <nooga> oh, i just wanted to ask about integers
17:54:31 <elliott> since 42 actually compiles to {INTEGER, 42} or similar
17:54:53 <elliott> nooga: I was thinking about making the first bit indicate whether the rest of the word is a name or a 31-bit integer, but really I have no idea how the word-reader should react to digit strings
18:01:05 -!- aloril_ has joined.
18:02:34 <elliott> "Never underestimate an Australians desire for beer. Now we have space beer we might even start our own space agency. We have our priorities right down here."
18:02:39 <elliott> Time until first kangaroo in space...
18:10:47 <pikhq> elliott: Depends: do you mean kangaroo meat?
18:10:53 <elliott> No.
18:10:56 <elliott> I mean kangaroo.
18:11:03 <pikhq> Probably going to be a while, then.
18:11:06 <elliott> Strayan Spagency.
18:11:35 <pikhq> No point launching a kangaroo into space until you have enough space in your space station to have kangaroo kickboxing in space.
18:12:56 <elliott> pikhq: Well, they just have to invent the space barbie first.
18:13:05 <elliott> Since they have space beer --
18:13:08 <elliott> http://www.sify.com/news/oz-firms-develop-first-beer-that-can-be-consumed-in-space-news-international-ldbnEpdabje.html
18:13:13 <elliott> (The comment I quoted was from the reddit thread of that.)
18:14:00 -!- lambdabot has joined.
18:23:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:28:47 <nooga> elliott: how big is this forth at the moment
18:28:48 <nooga> ?
18:29:12 <elliott> nooga: it isn't even a forth :)
18:29:18 <elliott> I'm trying to talk to the keyboard at this stage
18:31:54 -!- azaq23 has joined.
18:36:46 <Gregor> I think my oak soda needs less sugar.
18:41:18 <pikhq> I think your sugar needs less oak soda.
18:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/03/05/exclusive-nasa-scientists-claims-evidence-alien-life-meteorite/#comment
18:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> We need to nuke the place from orbit.
18:42:09 <pikhq> Only if we can get all of Fox News there first.
18:44:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Multiple nukes.
18:46:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:55:17 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
18:55:41 <myndzi> > He gave FoxNews.com early access to the out-of-this-world research, published late Friday evening in the March edition of the Journal of Cosmology.
18:55:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `of'
18:55:56 <myndzi> i'm not sure i trust the science of someone who would do this
18:55:56 <myndzi> :P
18:56:33 <pikhq> myndzi: At least he actually sent it to a peer-reviewed journal *as well*.
18:56:57 <myndzi> i suppose
18:57:01 <myndzi> but it sounds like a publicity play
18:57:07 <pikhq> Most definitely.
18:57:21 <myndzi> “The exciting thing is that they are in many cases recognizable and can be associated very closely with the generic species here on earth,”
18:57:22 <myndzi> hmmmm
18:57:26 <pikhq> And if this turns out to be BS, his career is probably ruined.
18:57:32 <myndzi> "they look an awful lot like earth life!"
18:57:45 <myndzi> lol tell that to whatsisname with the vaccination-autism shit
18:58:05 <myndzi> he lost his license to practice, got thoroughly debunked, and his original article was withdrawn
18:58:12 <myndzi> and he's still doing well for himself it seems
18:58:18 <pikhq> I'd consider that a ruined career.
18:58:31 <myndzi> andrew wakefield, that's it
18:58:35 <pikhq> He is still doing well for himself, only because there exist stupid people with money.
18:58:45 <myndzi> but he's not ruined
18:58:46 <myndzi> ;p
18:58:53 <myndzi> at least not in a tangible sense
18:58:55 <pikhq> But he is horribly unlikely to ever do science again.
18:59:05 <myndzi> it's arguable he wasn't doing science before
18:59:06 <myndzi> haha.
18:59:41 <pikhq> Anyways, point is, now his career depends on the whim of crackpots.
19:01:00 <myndzi> “Maybe life was seeded on earth -- it developed on comets for example, and just landed here when these things were hitting the very early Earth,” Shostak speculated. “It would suggest, well, life didn’t really begin on the Earth, it began as the solar system was forming.”
19:01:14 <myndzi> obviously god got bored one day, so he invested snowballs with life and played a game of darts
19:01:14 <myndzi> ;p
19:03:13 * Phantom_Hoover wishes he wasn't so easily scared.
19:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, after reading the SCP wiki I didn't sleep at all for an entire night.
19:03:35 <myndzi> scared of dead alien bacteria?
19:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Same applied to the slender man.
19:03:39 <pikhq> We can fix that!
19:03:44 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, HOW
19:03:52 <myndzi> what's scp
19:04:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Vell, ve simply remove ze amygdala.
19:04:08 <Phantom_Hoover> MAKES SENSE
19:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> myndzi, X-Files: the wiki.
19:04:28 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, can I do this with a drill?
19:04:41 <myndzi> lol
19:04:47 <myndzi> trepanation for fun and profit
19:05:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Not without damaging other portions of the brain.
19:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, dammit.
19:05:15 <pikhq> Like, say, the neocortex.
19:05:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. Do I need that?
19:07:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:07:22 <pikhq> How do you feel about abstract thought?
19:07:41 <Ilari> Facebook comments system for other sites... Anybody else think of "security nightmare"?
19:08:51 <Sgeo> myndzi, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/
19:13:14 <elliott> It's like OpenID but centralised!
19:13:49 <Ilari> At least OpenID doesn't have to be a security nightmare.
19:14:29 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:17:16 <pikhq> All of the Web stuff is a security and taste nightmare.
19:17:45 -!- augur has joined.
19:20:02 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: well, of course you can't sleep if you're up all night reading SCP instead :)
19:20:35 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, but I stopped, and was then incapable of sleeping
19:21:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:23:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:23:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:23:38 -!- elliott has joined.
19:42:23 <elliott> oerjan: I wonder if some kind of modified Burro couldn't fit this
19:42:29 <elliott> no pasting! paste is immoral
19:42:35 <oerjan> sheesh
19:42:58 <elliott> oerjan: like the inverse of (a/b) is (b'/a')
19:43:00 <elliott> where ' is inverse
19:43:03 <oerjan> well kayak sort of does reverse(P) = P^-1
19:43:05 <elliott> in burro
19:43:06 <elliott> so
19:43:11 <Sgeo> Hey Phantom_Hoover, there's a device that might make improvements to you
19:43:12 <elliott> if )b/a(
19:43:14 <elliott> was the same as (a/b)
19:43:15 <Sgeo> Wanna try it?
19:43:20 <elliott> then that's a start
19:43:23 <oerjan> although it doesn't work with non-termination
19:43:24 <Phantom_Hoover> DOES IT INVOLVE A DRILL
19:43:25 <elliott> all the basic commands have to become two characters, of course
19:43:32 <elliott> unless they're their own inverse
19:43:35 <Sgeo> I don't remember the details
19:43:42 <elliott> so + has to be ab and - has to be ba, say
19:43:57 <elliott> < has to be xy, > has to be yx
19:44:01 <oerjan> elliott: it might very well be possible to find a set of basic commands that _are_ their own inverse
19:44:05 <elliott> and then, err
19:44:11 <elliott> oerjan: I think I just did it with reverse(P)
19:44:29 <elliott> burro where +, -, < and > are two chars, and )b/a( means (a/b)
19:44:35 <elliott> wait
19:44:39 <oerjan> elliott: take a look at kayak
19:44:41 <elliott> actually )a/b( means (a/b)
19:44:45 <elliott> oerjan: ok
19:44:52 <elliott> oerjan: i think this was actually my inspiration :)
19:45:02 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it has robotic arms
19:45:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGFqfTCL2fs
19:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> This guy is the most awesome person ever.
19:45:30 <elliott> oerjan: hmm is )a/b( ambiguous with (a/b) :)
19:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen some of his other videos: he draws holograms by hand.
19:45:44 <elliott> yep
19:45:46 <elliott> oerjan: ((a/b)c/d(e/f))
19:45:52 <elliott> oerjan: wait, no
19:45:52 <oerjan> elliott: kayak doesn't quite reverse on brackets
19:45:53 <elliott> that's not ambiguous
19:45:57 <elliott> the other parsing has three /s
19:46:23 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't know the hologram thing
19:46:33 <Sgeo> But I've seen his hypotheses about traffic
19:46:57 <oerjan> elliott: hm a command which does (a,b) = (b+1, a-1)
19:47:06 <oerjan> that would be self-inverse
19:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUy8lELWhJg&feature=relmfu
19:47:37 <oerjan> and then you combine with other swapping things
19:47:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Works by drawing arcs so that the reflections change.
19:48:22 <elliott> oerjan: are you saying that
19:48:29 <elliott> hmm
19:48:37 <elliott> oerjan: i don't see how this gets around your proof
19:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, he also did that maglev thing.
19:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I must have stumbled upon him in my magnet phase.
19:49:23 -!- nooga_ has joined.
19:49:36 <nooga_> hmm
19:49:45 <oerjan> elliott: i'm just considering how to make all the base commands self-inverse, it won't apply to combined ones of course
19:50:09 <elliott> oerjan: could it if you made a sufficiently complex sequencing command? :-P
19:50:23 <oerjan> hm
19:50:31 <oerjan> a = -a is an obvious one
19:51:25 <oerjan> those two combined still don't change overall parity though
19:51:30 <elliott> oerjan: if you have a stack then P(x) := if TOS = x then pop else push x is an obvious one
19:51:34 * Sgeo wonders how well or poorly KT-AT would deal with those holograms
19:51:45 <elliott> for all x
19:51:58 <oerjan> elliott: um no, what if there are two x on top
19:52:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god.
19:52:08 <elliott> oerjan: irrelevant
19:52:13 <elliott> P(10)P(10) === e
19:52:32 <elliott> oerjan: P(10)P(10)P(10) === P(10)
19:52:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, increment your "Sgeo facepalm avoid" counter.
19:52:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, did you just call her God?
19:52:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: :()^ is TURING COMPLETE! EVERYBODY PARTY???? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:52:49 <oerjan> elliott: um are you implying you _cannot_ have two consecutive equal elements on the stack? i suppose that might work
19:52:53 <elliott> oerjan: no, i'm not
19:52:56 <elliott> oerjan: i'm asking how it matters
19:53:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, increment it again.
19:53:15 -!- elliott has set topic: DANGEROUS AARDVARKOIDS | | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:53:31 <oerjan> elliott: it matters because if there are two x on top of stack then two of that command pops both
19:53:58 <elliott> oerjan: ah. well, just have P be the only function to push
19:54:03 <elliott> then there's no way to get TOS = SOS
19:54:08 <oerjan> yeah.
19:55:06 <elliott> oerjan: of course your "P(a) P(b) -> P(b+1) P(a-1)" (using P() to do underload-style stack notation) will need adjusting
19:55:12 <elliott> in case b == a-2 or similar
19:55:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, why did you ask that?
19:55:59 <Sgeo> Her vision isn't exactly great.
19:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
19:56:18 <oerjan> elliott: ouch
19:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> No depth perception, or?
19:56:32 <elliott> oerjan: :D
19:56:38 <oerjan> elliott: i wasn't imagining a stack language for that one, anyway
19:57:03 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes.
19:57:10 <Sgeo> Although it's a bit worse than that
19:57:11 <elliott> oerjan: indeed
19:57:23 <elliott> oerjan: if even then +1 else -1
19:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please tell me she has an eyepatch.
19:57:26 <elliott> is one
19:57:39 <oerjan> argh
19:58:00 <Sgeo> I can tell you that, but it would be a lie.
19:58:13 <Phantom_Hoover> -_-
20:00:39 <oerjan> commands that flip a flag under some condition (which must not involve that flag) is an obvious candidate
20:00:48 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:00:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, how much worse is it than "no stereoscopy"?
20:01:09 <oerjan> in fact i think your if even then +1 else -1 can be considered that way
20:01:18 <Sgeo> Use of only half of her good eye
20:01:25 <elliott> oerjan: hm surely with such a self-cancelling language, reverse(P) becomes the inverse of P where atomic elements of P (including compound commands) are considered as one element
20:01:26 <oerjan> wait
20:01:31 <elliott> oerjan: and reversing inside compounds
20:01:36 * impomatic wonders if elliott's forth is complete yet?
20:01:39 <oerjan> elliott: it's just flipping the last bit always :D
20:01:47 <elliott> impomatic: it's difficult man :D
20:01:48 <elliott> oerjan: ha
20:01:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, that is not a bit worse.
20:01:55 <elliott> oerjan: if odd then +1 else -1!
20:02:07 <Phantom_Hoover> That is much worse.
20:02:08 <oerjan> ...that's a bit more awkward, with all that carry
20:02:15 <elliott> oerjan: MOAR POWER
20:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> You can have no stereoscopy but 20:20 vision.
20:03:02 <Sgeo> In terms of holograms, as opposed to "how bad is vision", I don't think it makes much difference
20:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> When you say "half"...
20:03:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Is that "half the field of vision radially", or what?
20:03:57 <oerjan> elliott: however recall how burro needs to disallow all but the global loop to avoid the non-termination issue
20:04:09 <Sgeo> Do you really need to know all these details
20:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> YES
20:05:08 <Sgeo> What is there to judge?
20:05:24 <oerjan> elliott: instead of ordinary brackets, the language needs to use something isomorphic to the alternating " ' quoting style
20:05:26 <cheater00> let me guess
20:05:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, EVERYTHING
20:05:41 <cheater00> elliott was pasting my quotes and talking shit about me because he's insecure
20:05:45 <oerjan> that way you don't need to change any characters
20:05:53 * cheater00 scrolls up
20:05:56 <cheater00> <elliott> 13:16:07 <cheater00> oerjan: i always wondered what was before the big bang!
20:05:56 <cheater00> <elliott> you and everyone else before they realised that's a stupid question.
20:06:01 <elliott> oerjan: you could define 0 as _|_ :D
20:06:03 <cheater00> how... surprising
20:06:09 <elliott> and then an infinite loop is the inverse of every program!
20:06:12 <Sgeo> As in, one side of the field of vision
20:06:40 <oerjan> elliott: erm... that's not the kind of inverse we are considering here
20:06:47 <elliott> oerjan: thatsthejoke.jpg
20:07:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, obligatory jibe: at least that explains why she wanted to date you!
20:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (No malice intended. It's just business.)
20:08:34 <Sgeo> I think that would have been better if it were ever actually clear that she wanted to date me
20:09:07 <oerjan> other than that, i'm going to ignore this.
20:09:09 <Sgeo> That's even worse, I think. Even the blind don't want to date me QQ
20:09:35 <oerjan> now if i could just manage to write in the right window, everything would be perfect
20:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, *blind nutcases
20:10:35 <oerjan> (wait no, it wouldn't.)
20:10:53 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:11:12 <elliott> oerjan: but but it would bring about world peace :(
20:13:10 <oerjan> elliott: oh. okay then.
20:13:21 <zzo38> What would bring about world peace?
20:13:27 <zzo38> I do not think something would.
20:13:56 <Sgeo> zzo38, it was a joke
20:14:01 <Sgeo> <oerjan> now if i could just manage to write in the right window, everything would be perfect
20:14:04 <Sgeo> oerjan> (wait no, it wouldn't.)
20:14:19 <cheater00> Sgeo: who's KT=AT?
20:14:24 <cheater00> KT-AT, sorry
20:14:45 <oerjan> some war droid Sgeo is infatuated with
20:15:36 <nooga_> PHP
20:15:44 <nooga_> i'm infuriated with it
20:15:53 * Sgeo is most certainly NOT infatuated with PHP!
20:16:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:16:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
20:16:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:16:38 <cheater00> Sgeo: is that your girlfriend?
20:17:01 <Sgeo> N..not .. not currently
20:17:20 <cheater00> Sgeo: oh, i'm sorry, i hope you guys get together
20:17:33 <cheater00> Sgeo: did you break up or something?
20:17:38 <Sgeo> No
20:18:01 <Sgeo> I have a crush, some reason to believe it's not returned, some to believe it might be
20:18:07 <Sgeo> I'm just confused
20:18:16 <cheater00> oh
20:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Many many many reasons to believe it is.
20:18:20 <cheater00> well poor you
20:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> She's an idiot and you're clearly just indulging your previously-stated attraction to girls who have undergone some kind of hardship.
20:18:52 <cheater00> i've got a hint for you if you allow me to give you one
20:19:28 <cheater00> don't let it drag on for too long or else you'll become the best friend
20:19:33 <cheater00> at best
20:19:35 <zzo38> I made up a wiki for TeXnicard, now.
20:19:44 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:19:47 <Sgeo> cheater00, that may have already happened
20:19:59 <cheater00> Sgeo: oh
20:20:05 <cheater00> Sgeo: well there are multiple ways out of it
20:20:10 <zzo38> You have to notify me if you want an account (even if you just want to try things with it)
20:21:02 <zzo38> Accounts is all logging in by OpenID.
20:21:31 <cheater00> Sgeo: one way is... you usually start spending time together and have some sort of habit of doing things
20:21:50 <cheater00> like you'll call her up every thursday, or you guys will watch movies or go eat lunch
20:21:55 <cheater00> or something
20:22:00 <cheater00> you carry her books around
20:22:35 <cheater00> next time this happens, show up late and be real irritated and keep it up like that, and be generally a bit pissed off about her (because hey, there's a reason for it anyways)
20:22:52 <Sgeo> cheater00, how about I not be an asshole?
20:23:00 <oerjan> cheater00: i _just_ told elliott in the other window i didn't think you needed banning, and then you start doing this.
20:23:05 <zzo38> How many of you have OpenID, I am curious to know that?
20:23:20 <cheater00> oerjan: i start doing what?
20:23:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: he is obviously trolling you.
20:23:38 <cheater00> oerjan: i'm trolling him?
20:23:40 <cheater00> oerjan: wtf?
20:24:01 <cheater00> oerjan: dude, wtf?
20:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god what's he doing now.
20:24:45 <cheater00> Sgeo: anyways, then she'll start asking herself what's going on, and when she asks you what's going on you can go all out
20:24:53 <zzo38> cheater00: I also think you do not need banning. At least, that is simply my opinion.
20:25:10 <cheater00> zzo38: i have no idea why i would need banning
20:25:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, trying to give me "advice".
20:25:32 <elliott> i'm not sure oerjan still thinks that. :)
20:25:37 <Sgeo> cheater00, or I can just ask her directly if she sees me in terms of being a friend, or more
20:25:47 <Sgeo> That's my current plan
20:25:48 <cheater00> Sgeo: no that's terrible
20:25:53 <cheater00> Sgeo: that's the worst thing you can do
20:26:02 <cheater00> this moves you from best friend to creep
20:26:29 <cheater00> see the thing is that being best friend means on emotional scale you are somewhere of a +2 for her
20:26:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, god please don't respond to him.
20:26:40 <Sgeo> I think, secretly crushing on someone who sees me as a friend is also "creep"
20:26:46 <cheater00> on a scale -10 to +10
20:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Just put him on ignore.
20:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, you don't need to worry about *becoming* a creep.
20:27:27 <cheater00> what you want is to get her to react to you, romance works in highs and lows, sometimes you have to provoke a low to get a high afterwards
20:28:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: smooth
20:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> LIKE AN ONION
20:28:30 <cheater00> and when you're best friend it's this curse impossible to break through by doing only positive things, because she'll always think "oh, he's such a nice boy, i love having him as a friend"
20:29:03 <cheater00> because you're always dependable and nice and courteous and stuff
20:29:39 <cheater00> but then you start noticing that girls like assholes
20:29:56 <cheater00> and it's not really about that, it's just about the fact that the right boyfriend for a girl makes her life interesting
20:30:30 <cheater00> a bit of excitement and emotional drama is definitely well placed in a balanced relationship between two people who were not lobotomized
20:30:50 <Sgeo> The impression I get from reading various things is that the correct way to avoid into the "nice guy" trap is to be more direct, not to be an asshole
20:31:06 <cheater00> well that's just semantics
20:31:12 <cheater00> some people see being direct as being an asshole
20:31:26 * Phantom_Hoover is confident that he will never be viewed as a nice guy.
20:31:39 <cheater00> but the problem here is, 99 times out of 100 when you go to her directly and ask her what she feels it will turn out to be pleading
20:31:42 <Sgeo> That's a mistaken impression that I'd imagine "nice guys" might have
20:31:54 <cheater00> and the problem there is that she's emotionally neutral towards you
20:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, STOP TALKING TO HIM ALREADY
20:31:57 <cheater00> yes
20:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover> NOTHING WILL COME OF IT
20:32:19 <cheater00> Sgeo: you want to do it when she's very emotionally biased towards you
20:32:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what?
20:33:08 <cheater00> either because you give her the most amazing day of her life (not likely) or because you pull the right strings and get her confused and a bit angry about what's going on (it also gets her to appreciate you more)
20:33:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, he claimed he lived in some big house wherein ballet lessons took place.
20:33:15 <Sgeo> cheater00, I want to know what she feels, not what I trick her into feeling
20:33:22 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: i do.
20:33:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Given his general disposition on IRC, I call bullshit on that bit at least.
20:33:32 <cheater00> Sgeo: you don't trick people into feeling things.
20:33:46 <cheater00> Sgeo: you just let their feelings free by doing what you do.
20:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Put him on ignore or I
20:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Put you on so that I don't have to listen to this crap.
20:34:27 <cheater00> Sgeo: there's no reason to shy away from the bad feelings (actually i wouldn't call that bad, because it's just constructive chaos)
20:34:46 <cheater00> Sgeo: simply because good things come out of it.
20:35:16 <cheater00> Sgeo: if you ask her what she feels you'll come off as a creep, because she's grown up and she can give you all the signs of what she feels towards you
20:35:27 <cheater00> no signs = no feeling, or ambivalence
20:35:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn the proximity of the backspace and return keys. Anyway.
20:35:36 <zzo38> Not using X is a waste of paper because then xdvi won't work.
20:36:45 <Sgeo> cheater00, I'm not putting you on ignore, but I won't be responding after thiis.
20:36:55 <cheater00> Sgeo: *shrug*
20:37:19 <cheater00> Sgeo: want to talk in msg?
20:37:38 <zzo38> Did you agree or disagree with me about that?
20:38:27 <cheater00> zzo38: full agreement.
20:39:11 <zzo38> cheater00: About X and xdvi, that is (I told you just in case you thought I meant something else)
20:39:28 <cheater00> zzo38: yes. full agreement :)
20:39:49 <cheater00> zzo38: i find a graphical user interface is indispensable for, well, graphical things which dvi is after all
20:40:50 <pikhq> I find that every interface sucks.
20:40:56 <pikhq> Some more than others.
20:41:17 <zzo38> Even though, when I am on that computer (at FreeGeek), I rarely use anything other than the command shell (often I use multiple tabs), and Firefox (since it is required for redmine), and xdvi (so that I can preview the file before printing it).
20:41:25 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I think you are correct.
20:42:07 <zzo38> pikhq: That is why I would write my own window manager instead. (It still isn't good; but it is better than the other one, at least for me it is better than the other one)
20:42:28 <pikhq> Windows probably has the most damnable set of interfaces, though...
20:42:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes.
20:43:00 <pikhq> As it is not even considered *desirable* to have an interface consistent with the other ones there. Gag.
20:45:33 <zzo38> That is because everyone disagree about everything, and it make it mixed up, also that some things works badly in Windows which is why they try to do it in different way
20:46:31 <pikhq> Also, I have real issues with how tabs are done...
20:46:37 <cheater00> pikhq: i'm happy that ubuntu is ditching x
20:46:58 <pikhq> Namely, how it damned well isn't the application's job.
20:47:05 <zzo38> cheater00: Y?
20:47:16 <pikhq> cheater00: Not yet; as soon as Wayland is stable.
20:47:25 <pikhq> At which point essentially everyone will ditch X.
20:48:33 <cheater00> pikhq: yeah, i'm talking about purely their plan to do it
20:48:49 <cheater00> pikhq: and that they allocated resources towards that actually happening
20:49:03 <pikhq> cheater00: Not just Ubuntu that's doing it.
20:49:34 <pikhq> Still. Damned good thing.
20:50:14 <zzo38> Can Athena widgets work on Wayland?
20:50:22 <cheater00> pikhq: yeah
20:50:24 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:50:29 <pikhq> zzo38: X can work on Wayland.
20:50:32 <zzo38> I would like to use Athena widgets but a bit modified for keyboard use too.
20:50:41 <cheater00> zzo38: wayland can have an X inside it
20:50:55 <cheater00> but of course, you don't want that because it's like windows 98 mode in win xp.
20:51:04 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I don't think you understand just how much people will cling to things that are familiar.
20:51:27 <elliott> windows xp has no windows 98 mode
20:51:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think you understand how little this affects the morons.
20:53:19 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: X, as far as these people are concerned (and, really, as far as most programs are concerned), is just the thing that puts pixels on the screen.
20:53:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Wayland does that with less bullshit.
20:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I have seen at least one blog post bitching about Wayland.
20:54:09 <pikhq> About the only thing that they'll actually *notice* is that all of a sudden, Linux graphics work better.
20:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Does this mean I won't have to suffer terrible stability in my drivers any more?
20:55:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: they'll be DRI-based, so yes.
20:55:35 <elliott> IF they're ported :P
20:55:41 <pikhq> Wayland still uses some of the same driver stack.
20:55:47 <pikhq> Namely, DRI.
20:55:53 <zzo38> Can a window manager be written with Wayland?
20:55:57 <elliott> most X drivers don't use DRI
20:55:59 <elliott> proprietary ones that is
20:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> That does it, I'm getting a decent desktop.
20:56:10 <pikhq> zzo38: Full-on compositing manager.
20:56:23 <Sgeo> X is dying?!?!
20:56:24 <Phantom_Hoover> *note: every time I conclude this I shrink back due to innate stinginess.
20:56:43 <Sgeo> The authors of The UNIX Haters' Manual are crying.
20:56:44 <pikhq> elliott: They'll probably be forced to in not-too-long.
20:56:47 <Sgeo> [Out of happiness]
20:56:55 <elliott> pikhq: or just refuse to support wayland
20:56:58 <elliott> thus stopping it ever being adopted
20:57:24 <zzo38> And how does it deal with mouse pointer?
20:57:28 <pikhq> elliott: Not likely. *When* Ubuntu starts shipping with it out-of-the-box, what do you think they'll do?
20:57:40 <elliott> pikhq: Ubuntu won't if the proprietary drivers aren't there.
20:57:50 <pikhq> elliott: Ubuntu isn't sane.
20:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I can't get the whole Herobrine log for today to load.
20:57:58 <elliott> pikhq: Ubuntu value their market share.
20:58:00 <pikhq> elliott: Remember, these guys switched to Pulseaudio before it even worked.
20:58:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try refreshing a lot.
20:58:11 <elliott> pikhq: It "worked".
20:58:18 <elliott> Wayland without drivers will not "work".
20:58:30 <pikhq> elliott: Besides which, this issue will only really affect Nvidia.
20:58:44 <zzo38> Can you do black/white/transparent mouse pointer with some built-in, with it?
20:58:51 <pikhq> *Presuming* the ATI drivers improve a bit.
20:58:57 <pikhq> zzo38: Sure.
20:59:10 <Ilari> Watched "The End of Suburbia". Doesn't look good for the US. :-/
20:59:32 <pikhq> Ilari: Yeah, the next 20 years or so will probably *hurt*.
21:00:32 <zzo38> If I use Wayland, I would have to change some things, including window manager, and mouse pointers, keyboard, make a library that does it with fixed-pitch bitmap font, widget, etc.
21:01:37 <zzo38> I do not want windows drawn with shadow, with glass, etc
21:02:46 * Phantom_Hoover laughs at the puny Americ—
21:03:06 <cheater00> i think you can expect wayland to be very gnome-like.
21:03:06 <Ilari> One major goal would be to avoid full-blown systems meltdown. If that happens in wide areas... The death toll woll be horrible. :-/
21:03:08 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that Scotland has several services dependent on Westminster subsidising us for no good reason.
21:03:15 <Ilari> *would
21:03:26 <zzo38> I should have no 3D windows, no dragging icons between windows....
21:03:31 <zzo38> Maybe I should just use X instead.
21:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> (Free tuition and medication being a large part of this.)
21:04:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:04:12 <Sgeo> pikhq, what's this about switching to PulsAudio?
21:04:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (There are students I know protesting Scotland's tuition rises. I find them extremely obnoxious.)
21:05:09 <cheater00> pikhq: have nvidia somehow said they don't support wayland?
21:06:10 <pikhq> Wayland *only* replaces freaking X. Still going to have Qt or GTK on top...
21:06:12 <pikhq> cheater00: I dunno.
21:08:29 <cheater00> pikhq: it doesn't really replace x, yet it does
21:08:35 <cheater00> pikhq: it's a bit weird isn't it :D
21:09:17 <pikhq> cheater00: It replaces X entirely. People seem to have this bizarre misconception that replacing X involves replacing the entire GUI stack.
21:09:35 <pikhq> When really it's just replacing the part of the GUI stack that causes pain and agony.
21:09:51 <cheater00> pikhq: ya
21:10:02 <cheater00> pikhq: but not really because wayland is something that x can PLUG INTO
21:10:26 <cheater00> so it's more like, it replaces the part of X which does direct interfacing with the hardware..
21:10:27 <cheater00> sort of.
21:11:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:11:29 <pikhq_> cheater00: Yeah, but now X serves as a compatibility layer.
21:11:46 <cheater00> yeah
21:11:57 <pikhq_> Rather than the center of all hardware interaction, based around 80s conceptions of what needed to be done.
21:12:07 <pikhq_> Oh, and absolutely *retarded* conceptions of how to do it.
21:12:17 <cheater00> so is gtk going to get implemented for x?
21:12:21 <cheater00> will that even make sense?
21:12:30 <pikhq_> GTK already has a Wayland backend.
21:12:40 <cheater00> ok
21:12:43 <cheater00> well that's cool
21:12:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:12:56 <pikhq_> It's really not hard to make one...
21:13:05 <cheater00> what about existing apps - they're mostly compiled with shared usage of gtk right?
21:13:16 <pikhq_> In large part, yeah.
21:13:19 <cheater00> so basically switching my gtk out with the wayland version should make all gtk apps use wayland?
21:13:27 <pikhq_> Qt also has a Wayland backend in the works.
21:13:28 <pikhq_> Yeah.
21:13:37 <cheater00> yeah that's pretty cool
21:13:44 <cheater00> that's what i like about linux
21:13:50 <pikhq_> Even better, GTK now has switchable backends. Environment variable and voila, your GTK apps will use Wayland.
21:14:07 <cheater00> pay-for operating systems would need you to recompile everything or something
21:14:34 <cheater00> and this means of course waiting 5 years for the next os iteration and praying they do it this time around
21:15:12 <pikhq_> Also, this should allow *significantly* better graphics performance.
21:15:21 <cheater00> oh yeah
21:15:23 <cheater00> i can't wait
21:15:38 <cheater00> in turn maybe high performance graphics could come to linux
21:15:44 <cheater00> including, you know, computer games
21:15:57 <pikhq_> Hooray, cutting out pointless context switches.
21:15:58 <cheater00> and as much as i hate to admit, this is the one step needed to make linux mainstream
21:18:01 <cheater00> pikhq_: i think if computer games came to linux it could really show how much more performance you can get from the system
21:20:25 <variable> What exactly *is* wayland ?
21:21:00 <cheater00> it's not X.
21:21:26 <variable> Ah - the ubuntu non-network-transparent X replacement?
21:21:37 <pikhq_> s/Ubuntu/Freedesktop.org/
21:21:51 <pikhq_> Ubuntu isn't responsible for it, they merely intend to use it in the future.
21:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, you say "non-network-transparent" like it's a bad thing,
21:22:11 <elliott> variable: it's not ubuntu's
21:22:21 <elliott> variable: also, network-transparency should be done at the toolkit level
21:22:22 <elliott> gtk, qt, etc.
21:22:24 <elliott> which is what is happening
21:22:28 <pikhq_> Also, it's not *inherently* non-network-transparent.
21:22:30 <elliott> that allows for MUCH more efficient network-transparency
21:22:39 <elliott> with much less complexity in the server, and more speed too
21:22:43 <pikhq_> The toolkits *or* the compositer server can easily do network transparency.
21:22:50 <pikhq_> s/er/or/
21:23:03 <variable> alright
21:23:40 <pikhq_> variable: Basically, Wayland is a new API for programs to communicate with a display server, with *signficantly* reduced complexity.
21:23:56 <variable> pikhq_: yes - I figured that once cheater00 said its "Not X" :-)
21:24:08 <elliott> cheater says many things
21:24:11 <pikhq_> Because, in essence, every bit of complexity in X has either been moved elsewhere or made irrelevant.
21:24:15 <elliott> but at least that one is correct
21:24:30 <variable> I was involved with X for a bit, supplied some patches and whatnot. I'll have to check out wayland
21:25:12 <elliott> X is a good contender for my least favourite program
21:25:17 <variable> elliott: ditto
21:25:43 <elliott> "The X server has to be the biggest program I've seen that doesn't do anything for you." --ken thompson
21:25:43 <variable> I've also seen some talk about "X12" but meh - I'll look into wayland :-)
21:29:01 <pikhq_> X12 almost certainly isn't happening.
21:29:25 <pikhq_> There is basically nothing in the X design that deserves to remain.
21:29:57 <pikhq_> It still boggles the mind that X11 traditionally has literally all the device drivers in the X server.
21:30:11 <cheater00> variable: yes exactly
21:33:58 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:37:44 <olsner> wayland seems very similar to android's graphics system
21:38:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:39:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:50:01 <elliott> Is Guile 1.8 the same as Guile 2? X-D
22:17:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:23:20 <olsner> "madvise - give advice about use of memory"
22:23:53 <oerjan> while cackling maniackally
22:24:21 <olsner> hmm, actually, that's probably correct... I'm guessing the verb is spelled with s and the noun with c
22:24:34 <olsner> advise the advice
22:24:35 <elliott> olsner: indeed
22:24:44 <elliott> advise the advice that it's very helpful
22:25:39 <olsner> but it does look like a case of misspelled api that has to be supported forever
22:25:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:26:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:27:29 <elliott> olsner: just turn it into a neologism, like referer
22:27:32 <elliott> becomes jargon
22:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> What's a referer?
22:28:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the referring page
22:28:58 <elliott> i.e. the page the link you clicked was on
22:28:59 <elliott> it's an http header
22:29:46 <oerjan> rfrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
22:29:58 <olsner> but this is odd, sbrk fails after allocating only 130MB - for some reason I just get a miniscule piece of heap between the stack and the last piece of the executable
22:31:40 <elliott> olsner: what are you doing? :p
22:31:59 <olsner> making my own malloc, of course
22:32:53 <oerjan> sbark
22:33:07 <olsner> I'm going to rewrite it to use mmap for everything, but was trying to postpone that and live a little more conveniently with a contiguous heap as long as I can get away with it
22:38:11 -!- wareya_ has joined.
22:40:07 <elliott> olsner: use some fancy functional structure for mmap! :-P
22:40:11 <elliott> Like a ZIPPER over MEMORY
22:41:00 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:41:26 <Sgeo> Dear God the Slackware FAQ is old
22:42:19 <olsner> elliott: no, but I am currently using purely functional data structures as my guide to all things data structurey
22:42:35 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:45:45 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Referer is an infamous misspelling in the HTTP spec.
22:46:04 <Phantom_Hoover> As opposed to Referrer?
22:46:17 <pikhq> Yeah.
22:46:31 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referer :)
22:50:03 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:00:31 <elliott> Hey Deewiant, what does it mean if Guile segfaults on any evaluation
23:01:14 <oerjan> clearly it's an evil scheme
23:03:27 <olsner> clearly that's a pun
23:03:57 <oerjan> CURSES, FOILED AGAIN
23:04:25 <oerjan> these pesky kids and their pun recognition
23:10:30 <elliott> oerjan: what does it mean if i and the.
23:11:53 <oerjan> how could i possibly know the
23:12:51 <Sgeo> "To amend the Clean Air Act to prohibit the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency from promulgating any regulation concerning, taking action relating to, or taking into consideration the emission of a greenhouse gas to address climate change, and for other purposes"
23:14:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:14:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
23:14:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:14:42 <oerjan> What is a really bad idea, Alex?
23:16:23 <elliott> oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan
23:16:26 <elliott> what does it mean if the guile and the
23:16:29 <elliott> :/
23:17:08 <oerjan> it means you need more badgers.
23:17:15 <elliott> oerjan: i'm using ALL the badgers
23:17:21 <oerjan> clone more.
23:17:52 <pikhq> *echm*
23:18:00 <pikhq> Badger badger badger badger
23:18:09 * oerjan gives pikhq some cough drops
23:18:39 <pikhq> What kind?
23:18:57 <elliott> It's actually LSD.
23:19:01 <oerjan> repsils with orange taste
23:19:07 <oerjan> er
23:19:12 <oerjan> lemon and honey
23:19:17 <pikhq> oerjan: Insufficiently friendly with fishermen!
23:19:33 <oerjan> i didn't know you to be a fisherman
23:19:45 <pikhq> I'm not.
23:19:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:23:02 <oerjan> elliott: LSD? are you mad?
23:23:09 <elliott> oerjan: Yes.
23:23:12 <oerjan> just a tiny bit of cyanide, is all.
23:23:34 <elliott> oerjan: Oh come on, you can't keep the trolls and kill off all our valuable assets :P
23:23:38 <elliott> WORST OP EVER
23:24:06 <oerjan> YAY
23:24:13 <oerjan> I'M ON TOP
23:24:49 <elliott> oerjan: sheesh, stop ruling the channel by way of homoeroticism
23:24:53 <elliott> it scares the neighbours
23:25:07 <oerjan> who _are_ our neighbors, anyway?
23:25:18 <elliott> In the United Kingdom and Sweden markets Renckitt Benckiser a throat tablet under the name Strepsils with exactly the same package as the Norwegian Repsils (apart from the first two letters). Also, an "S" which is part of the package design is continuing on the Norwegian seal. The name comes from Strepsils Streptococcusbakterien. Unlike the Norwegian Strepsils lozenges contain also amylmetakresol and 2.4-diklorobenzyl who has a mild antiseptic ef
23:25:18 <elliott> fect. Strepsils brand name was bought from Boots in 2006 and has been in production from 1958.
23:25:25 <elliott> oerjan: The rest of freenode.
23:25:58 <oerjan> #eroticism and #estrogen
23:26:13 <elliott> It doesn't count if the channels don't actually exist :P
23:26:13 <oerjan> i'm sure they're _very_ scared
23:26:14 <elliott> Use /list
23:26:23 <oerjan> i'm afraid to use /list
23:26:33 <elliott> oerjan: well. you may want to
23:26:45 <elliott> (echo 'USER joidsfoi joisdfo oisdjf oijsdf'; echo 'NICK odjfisdjf'; echo LIST) | nc irc.freenode.net 6667 >list
23:26:53 <elliott> oh
23:26:57 <elliott> actually forgot you don't use a real os there
23:27:12 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
23:29:25 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:30:29 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:35:07 <elliott> 07:43:07 <Sgeo> I pledge, for this year, to only learn programming languages that an employer will be likely to have me use.
23:35:07 <elliott> 07:43:09 <Sgeo> Who is with me?
23:35:07 <elliott> yeah 2007-sgeo!
23:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/03/a-virus-so-large-it-gets-viruses.ars
23:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I TOTALLY PREDICTED THIS
23:35:18 <elliott> actually
23:35:24 <elliott> it would be better than his current "learn every fucking shitty language ever"
23:35:26 <elliott> Sgeo: please re-pledge
23:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I'M LIKE EINSTEIN
23:35:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: thought it was referring to computotron viruses
23:35:40 <elliott> that would be fun
23:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> This is FUNNER.
23:35:54 <elliott> 08:11:08 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric
23:35:54 <elliott> 08:11:19 <ais523> msg nickserv identify 523kk
23:35:54 <elliott> 08:11:38 <ais523> Damn, I'll have to change my password now
23:36:01 <Sgeo> Did I even keep that pledge?
23:36:17 <oerjan> now it's 523ll
23:36:32 -!- z^ck has joined.
23:38:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:39:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:48:14 <Sgeo> How does Audacity manage to support Vista but work badly on 7?
23:48:31 <oerjan> sheer audacity
23:50:49 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:52:18 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:52:34 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:54:49 -!- cheater- has joined.
23:57:55 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
←2011-03-04 2011-03-05 2011-03-06→ ↑2011 ↑all