00:00:19 elliott, just pretend I never took any interest in COBOL. 00:00:29 oerjan: do you just make up puns all day, say yes 00:02:47 NO 00:03:06 i also sometimes eat and drink 00:04:28 oerjan: :D 00:04:37 oerjan: HOW OFTEN, COMPARED TO PUNNING, ON AVERAGE, WOULD YOU SAY 00:04:49 TRICKY 00:05:06 "Somewhere in the region of... zero, perhaps?" 00:05:17 NO A BIT HIGHER THAN THAT 00:05:37 well depends on region size, i guess 00:06:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:16:47 oerjan: what is it with the french? i ask you. 00:16:55 Je ne sais pas 00:17:00 OY VEY 00:17:01 Honey 00:17:02 IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW 00:17:03 wtf, honey 00:17:04 Honestly 00:17:14 Honestly Honey. 00:17:16 You're ridiculous. 00:17:17 *honey. 00:17:26 WHY IS HONEY NOT SWEET 00:17:33 I've been lied to my whole life! 00:17:36 Gregor: Too busy being delicious. 00:17:47 Even when I eat honey it's lying to me, it pretends to be sweet BUT IT'S NOT 00:17:56 O_o 00:18:37 hey oerjan, op gregor. 00:18:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 00:19:05 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +o Gregor. 00:19:07 O KAY 00:19:12 Oooh 00:19:16 Gregor: Ban honey. 00:19:18 Do it now. 00:19:26 elliott: Now unban me from #esoteric-minecraft or I ban you from #esoteric :P 00:19:33 Gregor: You're banned in -minecraft?? 00:19:34 :D 00:19:41 Wait, did my unban not work? X-D 00:19:49 * #esoteric-minecraft Banlist: Wed Mar 9 05:25:36 *!*Gregor@*.org elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott 00:19:51 bahaha 00:20:06 Gregor: Done :-P 00:20:10 Honest mistake, I swear. 00:20:18 Honey mistake 00:20:22 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +b honey!*@beehive.insectopia.us. 00:20:32 Gregor: Just stay being an op. 00:20:34 It's totally reassuring. 00:20:42 very calming 00:20:43 Knowing that someone who isn't a weirdo is an op. 00:20:46 * elliott glances at oerjan 00:20:56 * oerjan bans elliott -----### 00:21:05 Hmm, banning feels an awful lot like swatting. 00:21:06 How curious. 00:21:08 sorry, typo 00:21:59 HAH. Tunes does the exact same memory-disk unification as me. 00:22:10 I have this horrible feeling that all my ideas have been previously invented during Tunes. 00:22:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:25:22 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b noteda*!*@174.122.*. 00:25:30 wut 00:25:32 what's that ban 00:25:42 a spammer from a while ago 00:25:49 I don't suppose you're gonna solve the persistent problem :-P 00:26:03 THERE IS NO PROBLEM 00:26:12 Suuuuuuuuure 00:26:34 there are all these bans that are so old i have no idea who they are 00:26:57 perfect time to start anew, with fresh, exciting, relevant, modern bans. 00:27:12 oerjan: hmm... 00:27:16 looking at them :P 00:27:25 Such as *!*@*.uk 00:27:27 well a few should probably stay. some i don't quite understand. 00:27:29 And *!*@*.com 00:27:32 * #esoteric Banlist: Wed Jan 19 06:33:28 *!*@unaffiliated/reikon sendak.freenode.net 00:27:35 that was dixon. 00:27:45 who was dixon. 00:27:55 oerjan: the person who Quadrescence bought in to taunt fax for ~a whole day 00:28:00 ic 00:28:08 which ended up having about 90% of the trolling getting trolled for ridiculous hours until i convinced you to ban them both. 00:28:11 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@unaffiliated/reikon. 00:28:17 but then dixon appealed on quad's behalf. but quad is now gone now. so there should be no problem. 00:28:55 oerjan: Libster was the guy who (pathetically, admittedly) tried trolling us for like a few days. unlikely to return. 00:29:07 the .mx one looks like an anti-spam one. I suspect the "email" ones too 00:29:35 /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:21:40:24 --- join: darfur (n=darfur@c-24-11-26-71.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #esoteric 00:29:35 /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:22:16:02 --- mode: lament set +b *!*n=darfur@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net 00:29:45 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net. 00:29:50 after being an irritating cock 00:29:57 21:43:55 Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request? 00:29:57 21:43:58 Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request? 00:29:57 (about 100 repetitions of this) 00:30:10 oh, and a full recital of 99 bottles of beer triggered by him. 00:30:24 22:17:08 i see i just escaped the action. 00:30:24 22:17:13 --- mode: lament set -o lament 00:30:24 22:17:24 makes the logs rather quick to read... 00:30:24 22:20:20 * lament blows the smoke off the tip of the gun and puts the gun back into the belt 00:30:24 22:21:51 putting retards out of their misery since 2007 00:30:25 22:23:21 * oerjan cunningly detects a ddarius inspiration 00:30:50 /home/elliott/esotericlogs/10.10.16:19:46:40 --- join: hyper_cube (4859958e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.89.149.142) joined #esoteric 00:30:50 /home/elliott/esotericlogs/10.10.16:19:57:31 --- mode: oerjan set +b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142 00:30:54 that was Sgeo's beyond-retarded pal. 00:31:15 oerjan: EXCUSE ME I AM DOING YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU? 00:31:36 erm... 00:31:39 thanks? 00:31:42 oerjan: THANK YOU. 00:31:48 sheesh, fuckin' rude ops these days 00:32:00 oerjan: the shutup@ bans, those are all mistakes, absolutely 00:32:06 you should remove all of them. now. 00:32:07 SUUUUURE 00:32:35 67.15.72.46was Phenax 00:32:43 another moron/troll IIRC 00:32:46 yep 00:32:49 he was the ghetto-speak guy 00:32:58 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*darfur@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net. 00:33:24 /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.19:13:19:57 --- join: Conceptual (n=Conceptu@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com) joined #esoteric 00:33:24 /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:21:39:17 --- join: Conceptual (n=Conceptu@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com) joined #esoteric 00:33:24 /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:22:16:43 --- mode: lament set +b *!*@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com 00:33:26 same ban pain as darfur 00:33:28 *pair 00:33:58 that suomi ban is 00:34:06 17:24:23 smuckers: so, please explain why you insist on vandalizing our wiki. 00:34:06 17:25:00 intense boredom 00:34:12 maybe leave that ban there :) 00:34:17 heh 00:34:25 17:25:19 smuckers: And vandalism helps? 00:34:26 17:25:36 no, i still feel so empty inside 00:34:26 17:26:01 maybe a cock in you would fill you up 00:34:33 #ESOTERIC, THE HOME OF GOOD ADVICE 00:34:51 well hello there 00:34:53 that's the same as the other email guy 00:34:57 he ban-evaded 00:35:04 bsmntbombdood: hi. we're cleaning out the ban list. 00:36:27 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142. 00:36:44 noooo 00:36:45 Sgeo will bring him back 00:37:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@67.15.72.46. 00:37:03 No, I won't 00:38:26 i have this strange intuition not to unban that wideopenwest guy, so i won't. 00:38:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:39:38 oerjan: but how will you ever gauge the accuracy of your intuition if you don't test it? 00:39:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:41:17 oerjan: I think I've found the source of Unlambda's perversity. 00:41:23 aha 00:41:25 "I believe (though Faré disagrees) the starting point for Tunes should be Hurd+Guile." 00:41:56 ...what does that have to do with unlambda? oh hm. 00:42:01 oerjan: --David Madore 00:42:08 French nutcase. 00:42:39 ah. 00:47:11 hmm, how does one express the iota combinator with SKI? 00:47:47 what's iota? 00:48:59 specifically, the iota combinator 00:49:19 oerjan: as seen in the language ``Iota'' 00:49:27 coming to a Chris Barker near you 00:49:33 oerjan: \x. xSK 00:49:39 right 00:49:41 the simplest definition would be nice :p 00:49:46 (i.e. one that reduces to xSK almost directly...) 00:50:09 S(SI(KS))(KK) 00:50:36 S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> (SI(KS))x(KKx) 00:50:45 S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> 00:51:07 S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx) 00:51:12 S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx) -> x((KS)x)(KKx) 00:51:18 S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx) -> x((KS)x)(KKx) -> xSK 00:51:22 oerjan: good enough :-P 00:51:31 oerjan: (Writing a Lazy K implementation; having Iota would be inelegant!) 00:52:41 oerjan: actually I can't really figure out a "clean" way to do Lazy K in Haskell, the "FFI" so-to-speak between the lazy k and the Haskell to generate the list of church numerals seems difficult to do elegantly 00:53:46 well you don't have to express them directly in SKI... 00:53:57 oerjan: yes, but the point is that I don't want to have to pattern-match or whatever 00:53:59 I want to be able to write 00:54:05 unchurch f = f (+1) 0 00:54:07 *1+ 00:54:12 and 00:54:29 unlist f = f (\x y -> x : unlist y) 00:54:34 so then you can do 00:54:39 map unchurch (unlist p) 00:54:58 oerjan: I suppose I could do 00:55:11 data Foo = Fun (Foo -> Foo) | Int Integer | List [Foo] 00:55:21 oerjan: but the issue with that is that each parameter would have to know how to operate on Ints, etc. 00:55:21 you need at least a newtype wrapper... 00:55:25 *each expression 00:55:44 i.e. what's the result of S (List []) (Int 4) (List [Int 3])? 00:57:09 maybe something higher-rank... 00:57:39 oerjan: define "higher-rank" :P 00:57:43 like 00:57:45 the types get in the way there... 00:57:48 right 00:58:21 oerjan: I suppose I could do "data Foo = Fun (Foo -> Foo) | YouCan'tApplyThatLol Foo Foo | ValueThings" where the middle one is generated when trying to apply non-functions 00:58:24 but that seems awfully hacky 00:59:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:00:37 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:04:46 oerjan: Wanna elaborate on that higher-rank remar? :P 01:04:47 *remark 01:05:09 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 01:05:32 i'm not sure that actually would help 01:06:02 the thing is there is nothing in the type of a combinator that tells whether it actually _should_ be usable as a number 01:06:13 oerjan: hmm, I think the key in 01:06:16 unchurch f = f (+1) 0 01:06:17 unlist f = f (\x y -> x : unlist y) 01:06:21 is that you _never_ apply them to anything else 01:06:28 so all you need is something like 01:06:34 oh or wait 01:06:37 it turns into 1+1+1+1+0 01:06:49 ah 01:06:51 i mean you have no way to know whether you pass it an f that would try to apply (+1) to S, or something 01:06:55 right 01:07:07 you can just error out when applying an int or whatever... I _think_ 01:07:15 what about Dynamic? 01:07:20 oerjan: in fact I think that's what a Scheme implementation would do 01:07:26 (representing them as pure lambdas 01:07:31 ((f 1+) 0) 01:07:35 -> if it applies the 0, fail 01:07:39 -> if it applies the 1+ to a function, fail 01:07:48 yeah 01:07:52 but it would be nice if _everything_ could evaluate without error 01:07:58 (you could just infiniloop, but that's chetaing) 01:08:00 *cheating) 01:08:09 because from an LC point of view, you can treat a piece of data as anything you want 01:08:10 and it "works" 01:08:13 functions all have infinite arguments :) 01:08:32 oerjan: btw your swattage is required: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FireFly/Enterbrainfuck&action=history 01:08:42 i noticed 01:09:30 whoa, jwz moved off livejournal 01:10:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:10:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 01:10:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:18:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:18:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:30:30 I wonder if implementing the underlying @ objects on top of an existing system would be useful for prototyping the higher-level materials before porting the lower-level ones to x86-64. 01:34:36 -!- augur has joined. 01:40:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:41:29 -!- augur has joined. 01:41:45 -!- Slereah has quit. 01:41:56 pikhq_: I HIRE YOU TO WORK ON @. 01:42:01 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:43:52 pikhq_: RESPOND 01:47:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:48:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:48:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:54:47 pikhq: Psht. 02:00:36 pShit? 02:08:26 pikhq: Did you say RTK2 was any good or not? ...or was it the kana volume that's no good 02:08:36 Ah, RTK2 looks Chinese-focused. 02:18:57 hmm 02:19:02 olsner: is "call [di]" actually ok? 02:19:08 i.e. di contains the address of a subroutine to call 02:21:01 call or di 02:21:28 oerjan: f u 02:22:42 wait 02:22:45 i should probably set up a stack before trying to call 02:22:47 except it's working anyway 02:22:48 huh 02:26:26 elliott: RTK2 is the reading volume, and it's not really worth it. 02:26:43 pikhq: What would you suggest as a substitute? 02:27:01 I'm intending to buy RTK1 and 3 (together to help shipping costs) at least. 02:27:30 elliott: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about/overview-page 02:27:41 pikhq: YOUR DEFLECTION IS SO DEFLECTY, MY FRIEND. 02:27:57 elliott: "Learn to read aloud 10,000 gramatically correct, native-like Japanese sentences/phrases (confession: I only learned ~7500 in the 18-month period, but you are better than me). 02:28:01 " 02:28:14 There. That'll do it. 02:28:34 pikhq: Yeeees... but that doesn't exactly help. 02:28:47 "To learn Japanese, learn Japanese." "Okay, how?" "By taking actions such that you will learn Japanese." 02:29:03 That sounds like a very zz038 thing 02:29:06 zzo38 even 02:29:35 pikhq: I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THE ISSUE HERE. 02:31:15 elliott: I suggest you simply straight-up start learning Japanese after RTK1, rather than brute-forcing vague rules for how to remember one of the readings for the kanji. 02:31:30 You'll get the readings without much work, trust me. 02:31:50 pikhq: Staring at a bunch of kanji won't magically impart upon me the ability to read them, unless I either have a defective definition of "read", or the human brain has magical powers. 02:33:06 pikhq: Define "read", maybe I'm misunderstanding. 02:34:12 elliott: Basically, I am suggesting you do as Khatzumoto did: pick a sentence. Learn how to read it. Learn enough to understand it. Be sure to be able to write it. Stick it in your SRS. Repeat. 02:34:51 pikhq: "Stick it in your SRS" -- this requires the ability to type Japanese text on the computer, which AFAIK involves knowing the readings; do you propose I pick characters out from a map? 02:35:25 elliott: First, after *not very long* you will know *a* reading for most of the kanji. Second, http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/ 02:35:40 elliott: Third, have a text file containing Heisig keywords & kanji. 02:35:53 elliott: Fourth, there's some site that lets you draw a kanji and it'll try to OCR it. 02:36:25 elliott: Fifth, if it's on the web you can copy-paste. Sixth, dude step two is "learn how to read it". 02:37:01 pikhq: (1) By what logic? Like I said, *I am not going to learn readings just by staring at kanji*. (2) Yes, a friend pointed me to this; it looks quite nice, but I wouldn't want to write out an entire sentence like that. (3) That sounds nice; wonder if there are any available to download, since I'm lazy. (4) Fair enough; still sounds tedious, though. (5) True. (6) How -- magic? I'm asking for *resources* here. 02:37:23 elliott: You look them up. 02:37:28 You're answering "so how should I learn the readings?" with "Loop: learn a reading. Repeat." which is not helpful. 02:37:48 elliott: You look them up. ;; Where? jisho.org? 02:37:55 Among other things, sure. 02:38:09 The thing is, RTK2-ing things is not going to help you much. 02:38:12 pikhq: "Among other things" -- I'm explicitly asking for resources here. 02:38:30 elliott: jisho.org is the one I usually use. 02:38:44 http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E6%9B%B8 ;; picking at random, the "Readings" section here does not include a Japanese entry. Am I looking in the wrong place, or does this kanji not have a reading or something? (I literally picked at random.) 02:38:54 (And have, of course, very little idea what I am talking about. 02:38:55 ) 02:38:56 *.) 02:39:06 * Sgeo WTFs at Weebls-stuff's Owls song 02:39:14 Or are the Chinese readings the relevant ones? 02:39:19 elliott: Look at "Japanese kun" and "Japanese on". 02:39:24 Ah. 02:39:41 pikhq: Need I learn both, or is one vastly more useful than the other? 02:39:48 Speaking from an SRS POV. 02:39:58 You will *undoubtedly* learn both. 02:40:28 Kun readings are used primarily for words of native Japanese origin, and on primarily for Chinese origin words. 02:40:34 And both are *extremely* common. 02:40:38 Oh joy. 02:40:48 And RTK2 only covers the on readings. 02:41:03 Actually, only *one* on reading per character; some have multiple. 02:41:07 pikhq: So is there a pre-available text file of Heisig's readings and the kanji? Entering that sounds like a bitch because of the aforementioned can't-fucking-type-it problem. 02:41:25 Lemme find a nice one for you. 02:41:27 Also, are IMEs based on the kun or the on? Please forgive my stupid questions. 02:41:54 IMEs are based on whichever reading is appropriate in context. 02:42:09 pikhq: Now would be a bad time to mention that I fucking hate context. 02:42:10 You just type in how it would actually be said, and it figures it out. 02:42:23 It occurs to me that I have a trouble committing to any long-term endeavour unless I know all the steps beforehand. :p 02:44:07 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/data/Heisig_complete_v3.rtf Annoyingly, it's RTF. 02:44:58 But includes the keywords, stories when available, and relevant kun readings. 02:46:05 As for learning how things work based on context: the human brain is magic. 02:47:30 pikhq: holy shit, that's all the characters and stories? 02:47:43 Yeah. 02:47:49 who wrote the additional ones? 02:47:54 he only includes the first 500 or so? 02:48:13 The RTK Yahoo! group. 02:48:20 nice 02:48:35 what's the license on that? and are the first 500 or so stories heisig's or theirs? 02:48:41 Unknown license. 02:48:46 RTF? Euurgh. 02:48:47 :o 02:49:01 Come on, all it needs is " ". 02:49:03 Could probably find another one containing the same info, buut that's the first one I found, and it seems decent. 02:49:21 Oh yay, it's in a retarded format so I'll have to convert it specially to get something greppable. 02:50:09 pikhq: Wouldn't it be far more effective to have a file with _just_ the mnemonics without the flavour text, so that one can grep the memorised mnemonics to get the kanji...? >_< 02:50:10 -!- augur has joined. 02:50:54 elliott: Probably? 02:51:20 pikhq: Just thinking that there's no computerised way to go from list of mnemonics --> kanji character. 02:51:22 elliott: I think you could tell Anki to export a CSV containing just the kanji & mnemonics values from the RTK deck you have. 02:51:30 Mm. 02:51:38 It'd be nice if those post-500 stories were included in the book, too. :p 02:55:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:57:03 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:57:47 pikhq: So in summary, all I need to buy is RTK1&3 and if I'm feeling TOTALLY EXTRAVAGANT, RTKana. 02:57:58 elliott: RTK3 isn't even all that necessary. 02:58:08 But, yeah. 02:58:15 pikhq: Yes, but I might be able to save on shipping costs if I buy both together, and I might as well get it. 02:58:25 It occurs to me that I have a trouble committing to any long-term endeavour unless I know all the steps beforehand. :p <-- well you're not alone :) 02:58:40 And you'll probably be making extensive use of BitTorrent. 02:58:45 yeah, oerjan refused to be born until the whole process was explained to him 02:58:52 "so after I get my Ph.D., what then?" 02:58:54 "Uh..." 02:58:57 "You know what, fuck you, you're going in." 02:59:07 ...and that's why oerjan is spending his days in here! 02:59:12 * elliott prepares for extreme swattage. 02:59:17 Swattage of a kind never seen before. 02:59:41 oerjan: STOP STARING AT ME IT'S WORSE THAN SWATTING. 02:59:49 Gregor: BAN HIM IF HE DOESN'T STOP STARING AT ME 03:00:41 Clearly oerjan's connection has died. 03:01:07 elliott: THAT EXPLAINS SO MUCH 03:01:15 oerjan: took you a while to type that 03:01:33 i was in the backscroll 03:01:33 oerjan: see the rest of us did it the smart way, we just asked for the instruction manual. 03:02:51 87E55BFF3787E5C3 03:02:56 > length "87E55BFF3787E5C3" `div` 2 03:02:57 8 03:03:02 8 bytes for @. not bad. 03:05:02 -!- augur has joined. 03:05:11 hmm, so about five bytes of overhead 03:06:27 -!- SimonRC has joined. 03:07:39 quick! what do I call >r and r> if I have no > :P 03:07:48 I could do to_r but that's boring 03:08:24 eh, tor and fromr are good enough 03:11:06 I should probably implement integer literals at some point 03:11:58 elliott: Oh, one other source for readings. 03:12:16 elliott: Material intended for children and/or learners of Japanese has furigana. 03:12:31 Furigana looks TOTES BORING though. 03:12:37 (furigana, BTW, is where the reading of kanji is written beside or above the kanji, depending on writing orientation) 03:12:46 What're >r and r>? 03:13:03 I know what furigana is. 03:13:08 Mmkay. 03:13:39 "In Japan, by law, newspapers using kanji outside the jōyō kanji list must annotate them with furigana." 03:13:49 Is Japan just trying to make things really easy for foreigners or something? 03:14:18 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:14:59 That practice started before Japan had a high level of literacy in the population. 03:15:04 "Hiragana are sometimes used to write words which would normally written with katakana to make them appear more "feminine", particularly in comic books and cartoons for young girls." --omniglot.com 03:15:11 Well there's the stupidest idea I've ever heard right there. 03:15:25 And wrong, anyways. 03:15:43 Writing in all-hiragana just seems a bit childish. 03:15:57 Because, well, how many kanji do kids know, anyways? 03:16:14 348957938457348957983457834975983457 03:17:09 ... 03:17:28 pikhq: IT'S A FACTUAL FIGURE. 03:19:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:20:02 "Often the speed advantage of C/C++ (as well as the relative portability) out-weighs the use of other languages." 03:20:02 Sigh. 03:20:10 I wish this myth of speed would die. 03:20:13 Forever. 03:20:50 pikhq: JOIN ME IN PURGING THE WORLD OF MYTHOLOGY. 03:21:47 elliott, myth of "speed" being so important, or is C/C++ not relatively fast for similar straightforward code? Can you please explain the latter? (I grok the former) 03:23:42 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:31:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:31:38 The myths w.r.t. speed have a lot more to do with slowness of other language than speed of C. 03:32:36 Gregor: Except that other languages *aren't* slow; other languages are *slower*. 03:32:44 (Ignoring Ruby and the like, which really are just slow.) 03:32:51 Well yeah. And? 03:33:05 Gregor: Well, so it's not valid. 03:33:31 Gregor: Especially considering that in any "modern" OS, a program's time is spent in something like 100% syscalls (rounding up from 99.9%) 03:33:40 -!- jcp has joined. 03:33:42 Which is, of course, why @ has syscall inlining. :p 03:33:45 Depends on the program, but yeah, that's true, and people don't realize that :P 03:33:58 THE JOYS OF RUNNING EVERYTHING IN RING 0 03:35:13 STILL ACCEPTING LIBC.SO DONATIONS 03:36:34 Gregor, have you received any donations? 03:36:39 One! 03:37:05 Did you count self-donations in that? 03:37:09 No 03:37:16 Self-donations aren't donations. 03:38:19 EXPERT RESEARCHERS HAVE DISCOVERED THE ONE THING THAT WILL RESURRECT THE ADVICE ANIMALS MEME'S FUNNINESS. 03:38:28 Advice Wolfram. 03:38:30 I've invented a completely revolutionary form of breakfast technology 03:38:30 I call it 'toast' 03:38:58 MORE! MORE! 03:39:34 elliott: extra points if you manage to get the real wolfram to sue 03:39:46 "I took a dump today and it was shaped like a möbius strip 03:39:47 03:39:47 A New Kind of Shit" 03:39:52 oerjan: THIS HAS SO MUCH POTENTIAL. 03:39:58 "In 1876, Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone 03:39:58 03:39:58 And that's why I'm a genius" 03:40:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:42:12 "Here's the simplest universal Turing machine 03:42:12 03:42:12 Discovered by the most advanced intellect on the planet" 03:44:47 "Matthew Cook? 03:44:47 03:44:50 Never heard of him." 03:47:57 ADVICE BERTRAND RUSSELL: 03:48:03 "Oh, hi, Reverend! Want a cup of tea? 03:48:03 03:48:03 I'll go get my spaceship" 03:50:10 Hmmhmm, in a perl -ne '...' a b c invocation, is there a way to get at the current filename? 03:53:59 $ARGV 03:54:11 oerjan: doesn't that just give the first filename? 03:54:14 or are they actually popped off? 03:54:18 also, oerjan knows perl? :) 03:54:26 $ARGV contains the name of the current file when reading from <>. 03:54:32 i know how to do man perlvar 03:54:40 SNAPPY SNAPPY 03:56:14 also 03:56:30 so oerjan, if you're so smart, how do I print a variable quoted (i.e. with " escaped) >:) 03:57:15 * oerjan switches to man perlfunc 03:57:42 You kids and your fancy manpages. 03:57:45 Back in my day, we just asked oerjan. 03:58:37 print "\Q$VAR"; possibly 03:59:01 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:59:03 \Q$VAR\E for longer things, it seems 03:59:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:59:13 seems to escape an awful lot, though :) 03:59:18 seems to be intended for regexps 03:59:37 it even escapes spaces X_X 04:00:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:01:05 -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 195M 2011-03-10 04:41 esoteric.pl 04:01:08 don't let the extension fool you 04:01:10 that's Prolog. 04:01:16 now to feed it into gprolog and hope it doesn't die. 04:01:25 syntax error! 04:01:30 oerjan: \Q is way too overzealous :P 04:03:41 yeah it just uses perl's simple backslashing rule 04:06:20 oerjan: WELL MAYBE I DON'T WANT A SIMPLE RULE 04:06:22 MAYBE I WANT A CLEVER RULE 04:06:38 then write a substitution. i hear perl is good for that. 04:08:03 oerjan: Your snarkiness is unmatched, bro. 04:08:05 Unmatched. 04:08:44 Bronmatched. 04:08:52 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:09:05 Unmatched '. 04:09:19 Bro. 04:10:07 -!- azaq23 has joined. 04:10:49 pikhq: Tomorrow I'll buy RTK1&3, I think. 04:11:41 pikhq: DONATE TO DA LIBC.SO FUND DOIT 04:12:31 WHAT ARE THE VALID STRING ESCAPES IN PROLOG BITCHES 04:12:37 THAT'S WHAT I BITCHINGLY ASK YOU 04:12:40 BITCH 04:15:18 elliott: It's not always true that a program spends 100% of its time in syscalls. 04:15:26 Just true for some 99% of the programs people care about. 04:15:35 pikhq: Rounding up, 100%. 04:15:41 100% of programs spend 100% of their time in syscalls. 04:15:48 And 100% of the time spent in syscalls is spent waiting for IO. 04:16:46 the world of computing is waiting for the new supercomputer optimized for waiting 04:17:28 :D 04:19:56 ugh, all i want to do is query #esoteric with prolog :) 04:22:13 whoa, gwern used to be in here 04:25:11 17:42:32 ah 04:25:11 17:42:39 there's an O(n) one for base-16 isn't there? 04:25:11 17:44:12 No, from what I understand O(n^2) is the best one. 04:25:11 17:44:21 (for finding arbitrary digits) 04:25:11 (for the digits of pi) 04:25:12 wut 04:25:19 am i misinterpreting this or was 2009-pikhq MISINFORMED 04:25:55 *GASP* 04:25:56 18:32:36 * pikhq wishes that getting a digit of pi were a function of the previous digits 04:25:56 X_X 04:25:59 It's a function of the position :P 04:26:09 That was *really* stupid. 04:26:12 I mean damn. 04:26:19 Yeah. You were pretty much the WORST! 04:26:20 :p 04:26:45 well blaim it on his youth 04:26:48 *blame 04:27:14 * oerjan blames his spelling on senile old age 04:27:16 i used to think pikhq was like 24 04:27:18 then he was all like 04:27:19 hey gus 04:27:21 *guys 04:27:26 i'm 20 now!!!! 04:27:27 and i was like 04:27:28 o_o 04:27:46 but Gregor was older than i expected, at 30 04:30:25 > fix error 04:30:26 "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E... 04:30:31 > fix (show . error) 04:30:35 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 04:30:36 > fix (error . show) 04:30:39 *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex... 04:30:45 ... oerjan: wut 04:30:50 oh 04:30:59 first time show has ever REMOVED a quote :) 04:31:37 lessee that probably defaults to () inside... 04:31:45 or wait 04:32:00 show . error is obviously a string 04:32:06 -> String 04:32:12 oerjan: show . error just time limits, though 04:32:19 (fix error) afaict should not output " 04:32:23 yes i'm just wondering why 04:32:26 unless error's return value is defaulting to string 04:32:27 which is weird 04:32:30 > fix error :: () 04:32:30 Couldn't match expected type `()' 04:32:31 against inferred type `[GHC.Types... 04:32:35 :t error 04:32:35 forall a. [Char] -> a 04:32:37 oh 04:32:38 oerjan: of course 04:32:41 elliott: i think lambdabot does something special with errors 04:32:41 error is casted to a -> a 04:32:43 == String -> String 04:32:47 because fix is (a -> a) -> a 04:32:50 so the result is a String 04:32:52 so it goes to show the string 04:32:53 " 04:32:55 evaluates what's inside 04:32:57 BAM INFINITE ERRORS 04:33:03 oerjan: no? 04:33:04 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:33:35 hm yeah 04:33:53 goodnight 04:33:54 -!- wareya has joined. 04:33:55 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:34:04 > "ab" ++ error "hm" 04:34:06 "ab*Exception: hm 04:57:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:58:18 *Gaaah*, US immigration. 04:58:26 We have a quota of 700,000 per year. Total. 04:58:37 50,000 of that is divided out in a lottery. Literally a lottery. 04:59:27 40,000 is for people with advanced degrees. 05:00:48 -!- wth has joined. 05:03:23 -!- wth has left (?). 05:04:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 05:11:07 -!- wth has joined. 05:14:33 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:26:48 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:29:47 the last 6 nights, i have had a dream containing exactly one person i know, in all cases they have done something that is just slightly not characteristic to them 05:34:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:34:30 and does elliott want to learn japanese? that sounds crazy 05:40:12 oklopol: Quite honestly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if he keeps it up for a week. 05:42:55 well i find the wanting interesting 05:46:27 i couldn't manually start obsessions in his age either, or at least the skill started developing thereabouts 05:51:53 is 700,000 very little? you have what 500 million people or what? 05:52:52 i wish there was a webpage where you could look this stuff up 05:54:39 700,000 is freaking tiny. 05:55:09 We have 308 million people. 05:55:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:55:39 i suppose they don't want to ruin your pure american blood 05:55:49 It's even worse when you consider that a *gigantic* chunk of those you basically get for luck. 05:56:06 The easiest way to immigrate, though, is to marry an American. 05:56:15 You immediately get permanent residency. 05:56:21 None of this *waiting 10 years* bullshit. 05:56:25 do they organize temporary weddingings for this stuff 05:56:34 It happens sometimes. 05:56:48 what if you divorce 05:57:22 You have the green card; you're not freaking losing it. 05:57:31 cool 05:59:13 so there's this girl in the graph theory course, she told us she knows how to solve the discrete logarithm problem: "instead of logarithms, you take the integrals. then, you take the discrete version instead, because that's easier to think about. now, the crucial thing is that they come from the other dimensions, and you can call them in *every point*." "erm, call what?" "well... umm... all of them! and then the you take the ring, and they keep circlin 05:59:28 Ultimately, it seems easier to immigrate to Japan than the US. And Japan has an *infamously* difficult immigration system. 05:59:48 then person x asked what the discrete logarithm is, and i explained, and the girl was like "oh that's what it is? lol, i was solving a much harder problem" 06:00:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:00:10 XD 06:00:52 this "girl" is actually like 40 but anyway 06:01:18 (Japan has: no quotas. No "temporary worker" visas. No waiting lists. 5 years after being in the country and you can apply for citizenship. Permanent residency is an absurd bitch, though) 06:01:33 (Yes, permanent residency is harder than citizenship) 06:02:34 i don't really know how things work in finland either 06:02:41 so i have little to compare with 06:02:46 i assume we do things in a relatively sane way 06:02:54 because we're one of the normal countries 06:03:25 the BORING countries :(((((((((((( 06:03:46 i have never even seen a massacre 06:04:24 Not sure on how the visas work, but citizenship seems relatively sane. 06:04:49 Also, visas only relevant for non-Schengen. 06:05:05 usa is awesome though, we had this researcher from allah country x, and he could never get to the conferences in usa because of that 06:05:50 maybe he wrote INFIDELS MUST DIE in the application paper, dunno 06:08:52 At worst, you could immigrate to Finland by immigrating to the easiest EU country to immigrate to, get citizenship, and move. 06:09:13 Hooray, cheating. 06:10:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:12:22 Ah, seems that to immigrate to Finland you need to just have family there, intend to study there, or intend to work there. 06:12:40 Voila, you get a residence permit. 06:12:51 Be there for 6 years, and you can get citizenship. Voila. 06:13:29 well aren't we NAIVE. 06:15:10 Though you need to know one of Finnish, Swedish, or Finnish sign language to become a citizen. 06:15:54 Still. Entirely sane and manageable. 06:17:03 -!- elliott has joined. 06:17:14 swedish is essentially english, and finnish is essentially estonian 06:17:49 Sleep schedule upside-down. 06:17:51 All-nightering. 06:17:55 oklopol is pleasant surprise, hello. 06:18:39 he 06:18:43 06:15:46 and does elliott want to learn japanese? that sounds crazy 06:18:44 06:21:29 oklopol: Quite honestly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if he keeps it up for a week. 06:19:05 elliott: i've been sleeping 7pm-3am lately 06:19:05 it's menial busywork, it's not like projects where I can architecture myself way out of space and then realise it'll be an unholy bitch to do 06:19:19 oklopol: oh, that's the worst. well 8pm-4am is the absolute worst, IMHO 06:19:25 i luv it 06:19:26 oklopol: I'm on 6 am - 4 pm, basically 06:19:29 It's wrecking me 06:19:36 yeah i've done a lot of that stuff 06:20:01 but the pmtoam is new to me, and it seems to work better than a normal sleep schedule 06:20:14 oklopol: midday/1pm wakeup is ideal imho 06:20:26 nice warm afternoon wakeup, late sleepytime 06:22:50 well see i love being at the university, alone in the darkness 06:23:23 oklopol: i like nighttime, but when i don't get much daytime at all when i wake up it fucks me up a bit 06:23:26 annoying 06:23:34 elliott: True, it will be much easier for you to estabilish inertia. 06:23:48 "estbailish" 06:23:52 i'm allowed to typo 06:23:53 im tired 06:23:54 you're not 06:23:56 elliott: good retort man 06:24:01 oklopol: fuckin a 06:24:06 punctuation is too hard :)) 06:24:11 wanna sleep already, this is not goodgoing 06:24:13 "elliott: you suck" "pikhq: haha typo" 06:24:19 erm 06:24:21 ... 06:24:21 :D 06:24:23 :DDD 06:24:26 i love it 06:24:28 someone insult me 06:24:29 those were like what you prefix your things with 06:24:32 someone insult me 06:24:39 elliott: you are a fucking idiot 06:24:43 oklopol: typo 06:24:46 elliott: I'm sleep deprived and should be going to bed right now. I'm tired. 06:24:48 lol can't you see it 06:24:52 But COMPUTER 06:24:56 pikhq: haha join the club it's the best club *hi5* 06:24:56 ME ADDICT 06:25:02 pikhq: i woke up at 4 pm, it's now 7 am 06:25:04 what about you 06:25:14 ... I am not worthy 06:25:21 I've just been cutting sleep short an hour or two the past week. 06:25:34 i went to sleep at 23 and woke up at 8 06:25:35 Nothing near as crazy as that, because I have class. 06:25:51 pikhq: what classes?!? 06:25:54 oklopol: why's it sound crazy though, legit interested 06:26:01 (me wanting to learn moonspeak) 06:26:12 elliott: dunno, just kinda random 06:26:14 oklopol: Linear algebra, differential equations, logic, and current political issues. 06:26:17 who'd want to learn japanese 06:26:31 pikhq: ah the four classics 06:26:34 oklopol: oklopol 06:26:39 i took those on my first year 06:26:56 oklopol: 皆！皆が日本語を勉強したいぜっ！ 06:27:14 elliott: i want to learn japanese because i already know some of it, originally i just wanted to learn *a* language 06:27:33 oklopol: it's agglutinative, doesn't have a boring latin-derivative alphabet, and, I dunno 06:27:38 pikhq: all! all will japanese want to learn ze 06:27:44 the other contestant was Finnish. but your alphabet is boring. 06:27:54 oklopol: Everyone! Everyone wants to learn Japanese! 06:27:54 even if your agglutinativity is better i guess. whatev. 06:27:58 pikhq: yeah 06:27:59 elliott: I bet that looks much less like moonspeak to you now. 06:28:07 i would've translated it better if i'd known i'd know all the kanji 06:28:14 pikhq: no, it looks exactly like moonspeak. i didn't continue with the sampler 06:28:14 oklopol: Lame. :P 06:28:21 elliott: Baaah. 06:28:25 at least i can see that they're theoretically made out of multiple bits at least :D 06:28:59 pikhq: no lame 06:29:49 so that all kanji, is minna one of its readings? 06:29:55 i mean the one used there 06:30:00 oklopol: but ehh, with finnish i'd have to like get down to the business of actually learning the shits quickly 06:30:07 why? 06:30:12 oklopol: no funky alphabet 06:30:19 oklopol: with japanese I can trick myself into thinking it's easy enough to continue because I have to learn all dem kanjae first 06:30:29 well it doesn't take you that long 06:30:30 which is trivial but time-consuming. 06:30:53 oklopol: rtk1&3 is ~3 months i think 06:30:57 which == 3 oklopol hours 06:31:33 i have spent quite a lot more than 3 hours on the kanji :D 06:31:44 at least hmmhmm 50 hours maybe 06:31:46 nah 06:31:46 oklopol: underachiever 06:31:47 less 06:31:51 but anyhows 06:32:02 they're pretty too. although finnish is also pretty 06:32:06 and i still don't know that many 06:32:19 but really, "kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen", who can ever understand words like that, finnish is too hard 06:32:26 -!- augur has joined. 06:32:40 totta tm. 06:32:58 If you just add a few more vowels, it could almost pass for Japanese. :P 06:33:09 note: i invented that word. 06:33:10 well. 06:33:14 with MINIMAL aid from oklopol. 06:33:28 06:50:10 At worst, you could immigrate to Finland by immigrating to the easiest EU country to immigrate to, get citizenship, and move. 06:33:29 isn't "emigrate" more correct here 06:33:40 kakusikyammentanerujatsunchiaikakaushitamanhettakinen. 06:33:43 elliott: Bah. 06:33:49 pikhq: what does that mean, doorknob testtube? 06:33:56 pikhq: neruya 06:34:03 not neruja 06:34:05 elliott: It's Japanese-sounding gibberish. 06:34:16 pikhq: aka "Japanese" 06:34:31 elliott: Coming from an actual Japanese speaker. 06:34:38 its called a j03333k 06:34:41 which is a joek 06:34:43 which is a tortoise 06:34:53 And it's tortoises all the way down. 06:35:02 quick, what's the square root of two? 06:36:35 oklopol: 1.4something 06:36:37 it is my dream (one of many) to sneak up on pikhq one day and start speaking to him in fluent japanese 06:36:42 i don't wanna go to japan on anything 06:36:44 just pikhq 06:36:48 LMAO 06:37:00 oklopol: let's do it TOGETHER 06:37:02 in fact 06:37:03 haha, yes 06:37:07 let's get on a flight to japan pikhq is taking 06:37:09 go up to him 06:37:10 speak fluent japanese 06:37:12 get off the flight 06:37:16 and then immediately get a return flight 06:37:28 shit, now he knows 06:37:28 wow 06:37:35 got any vodka, need to make him forget :/ 06:37:35 I KNOW NOTHING 06:37:56 EXCEPT THAT I SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THIS 42 GALLONS OF EVERCLEAR 06:38:13 well there's the slight glitch in the plan that he probably won't share his whereabouts that easily 06:38:25 if i knew where you people lived, i'd have come visit many times already 06:38:40 oklopol: Uh, I have. Several times. 06:38:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:39:00 oh well i have not paid attention i suppose 06:39:16 anyhow usa is kind of different because i don't really know a cheapish way there 06:39:20 he's in colorado springs... in the past 06:39:28 elliott: And present. 06:39:39 oh 06:39:41 thought you moved 06:39:41 Well, just outside of Colorado Springs. 06:39:44 but yeah supposedly it came up in the "hey we're fucking each others' neighbors" thingie 06:39:44 or was that just into the clitty 06:39:46 city 06:39:50 I did. Back to Colorado Springs. 06:39:50 oklopol: what 06:39:55 i don't remember who the other guy was 06:39:55 From Missouri. 06:39:58 pikhq: where were you before that, buttfuck colorado? 06:39:58 but pikhq and someone else 06:39:59 oh 06:40:03 missouri = buttfuck colorado 06:40:16 i want to yawn 06:40:16 oklopol: Wuh? 06:40:17 can i yawn oklopol? 06:40:19 is it safe? 06:40:24 yes 06:40:28 very nice and safe 06:40:31 elliott: Missouri is 12 hours of driving from here. 06:40:32 you made me yawn. 06:40:35 * elliott yawnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 06:40:41 pikhq: buttfuck coloradozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 06:40:45 pikhq: didn't you and someone else here notice you were each others' neighbors 06:40:51 oklopol: you're oklopol, you're meant to be immune to the yawn STD 06:40:52 no? 06:40:54 only like 50 miles between 06:40:56 oklopol: Uh, no? 06:41:00 yeah 06:41:01 bsmntbombdood 06:41:02 no? 06:41:04 what, really? :P 06:41:06 wasn't he in colorado sploots 06:41:07 oh, lol 06:41:08 Oh, 50 miles between? Right, bsmntbombdood. 06:41:10 ha 06:41:13 right. 06:41:13 i remembered right 06:41:15 im genius 06:41:17 i wasnt even there 06:41:20 He was in, like, Boulder, wasn't he? 06:41:21 i picked that up by logreading 06:41:22 well 06:41:22 yeah 06:41:23 probably 06:41:23 yes 06:41:31 hey oklopol, what's your full address 06:41:38 not giving it here 06:41:46 oklopol: but i wanna get on a plane today ......... 06:41:54 there's a spa called caribia pretty close tho 06:41:59 oklopol: GIVE IT IN /MSG 06:42:04 i think you've told me before 06:42:07 so it's really just jigging my memory. 06:42:23 elliott: The distance from here to Missouri is longer than the distance from the southernmost point of the UK to the northernmost point. Now shaddup about Missouri being buttfuck Colorado. 06:42:36 pikhq: its like the nether in minecraft, the distances in the usa are just multiplied 06:42:37 everything is bigger 06:42:39 so just scale it down 06:43:11 That would give the US positively ridiculous population density. 06:43:23 pikhq: that's hardly the most ridiculous part of the USA :) 06:43:59 1,264 people per km² is what it would come down to. 06:44:44 Instead of what it actually is, 33 km². 06:44:51 that's not a density! 06:44:55 you forgot a people and a slash 06:45:00 Yup. 06:45:02 I did. 06:45:11 elliott owns at debating atm 06:45:15 yeah 06:45:19 i'm seeing the inner structure of arguments 06:45:25 turns out, mostly the inner structure is just trivial bullshit. 06:45:28 but i do what i can 06:46:07 okay time to go, we have this great thingie on automata and number theory 06:51:32 pikhq 06:51:35 how much do you know about x86 06:51:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:51:58 :D 06:52:12 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:03:10 wtf @ rword... 07:06:19 pikhq: 00:58:01 as for your code, i cannot read intel assembler. 07:06:30 pikhq: There aren't enough sigils, and the operand order is too logical. 07:06:53 Also, I'm not burdened by having to spell out the obvious operand sizes in every instruction name. 07:15:51 pikhq pikhq pikhq. how much x86 know you 07:16:33 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5230043/computational-cost-of-applicative-style 07:16:35 APPLICATIVE STYLE 07:16:36 IS IT SLOW 07:35:28 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:35:38 -!- elliott has joined. 07:39:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:48:03 pikhq: talking to ams is like a ticking timebomb 07:48:08 just waiting for him to get annoyed at something i say 07:48:10 or realise he ignored me once 07:49:41 anyway, we named the OS GNU, please call it that when refering to GNU. 07:50:58 Which OS is this? 07:51:02 fizzie: Linux. 07:51:05 fizzie: ams is a major GNU zealot. 07:51:34 fizzie: I'm busy trying to blow his mind by mentioning that Kitten has (will have, would have) almost no GNU software. 07:51:37 With a name like that (edit distance of 1 from rms) he'd sort of have to be. 07:51:43 Probably I will blow his mind right with me on to his ignore list. 07:51:49 fizzie: He's a "well-known" IRC malcontent/troll. 07:52:02 I am not very much in the "scene". 07:52:07 Maybe I should join more channels some day. 07:52:43 fizzie: This is hilarious: he's arguing that GNU have naming rights to a system with almost no GNU software, just because they were, you know, there at the right place at the right time. 07:52:54 "we named the OS GNU", honestly, what a god complex. 07:53:06 besides, Linus holds the trademark to Linux, not GNU nor ~rms 07:53:06 SunTzu: and? 07:53:06 SunTzu: people saying lies can always say lies. 07:53:06 SunTzu: we hold a trademark on GNU btw. 07:53:06 what 07:53:38 The hard part here is keeping up this schtick long enough to irritate him without annoying him so much outright that he just concludes I'm a troll. 07:54:07 GNU coding standard quotation of the day: 07:54:08 Please don’t use “win” as an abbreviation for Microsoft Windows in GNU software or documentation. In hacker terminology, calling something a “win” is a form of praise. If you wish to praise Microsoft Windows when speaking on your own, by all means do so, but not in GNU software. Usually we write the name “Windows” in full, but when brevity is very important (as in file names and sometimes symbol names), we abbreviate it to “w”. For instance, t 07:54:08 he files and functions in Emacs that deal with Windows start with ‘w32’. 07:54:30 fizzie: ...wow. 07:55:27 elliott: it is also immensly rude to those who wrote the OS to give credit for someone who only did a small work (in the grand scheme of things) 07:55:36 The ego. 07:55:37 It is so immense. 07:55:48 Wait, I think I understand now. 07:56:01 He maintains GNU inetutils, implementations of ping etc. that absolutely no distro uses. 07:56:09 --> HULK SMASH RUDE GNU HATERS 07:56:09 You must start calling it Linux/GNU/God. Because, you know, the grand scheme of things. 07:56:29 Or in the other order, maybe. 07:56:37 most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway. 07:56:37 most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway. 07:56:38 most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway. 07:56:38 most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway. 07:56:38 most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway. 07:56:39 most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway. 07:56:59 fizzie: Can you like... put that in the ChanServ welcome message? 07:57:02 I feel we can never quote it enough. 07:57:06 Shouldn't it be Electricity/GNU/Linux 07:57:08 argh 07:57:11 (Started to copy fizzie's troll.) 07:57:15 most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway. 07:57:41 http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Linux&word2=GNU%2FLinux 07:58:01 fizzie: Can't link that to him, it requires Flash, which is a tool of the evil empire 07:58:03 *empire. 07:58:29 elliott: you would be correct if you go back a few years, then it was more common to refer to GNU/Linux incorrecly as Linux. 07:58:31 but these days the opposite it true, which is good 07:58:35 and you can help us clear up the mess 07:58:54 fizzie: Oh, he's explained it. 07:58:54 fizzie: elliott: google will filter out the slash 07:58:57 fizzie: But of course. 07:59:04 THAT'S why. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:09 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:00:55 Yes, it sort-of does, which is why searching for "GNU/Linux" also hits some pages that just say "GNU Linux" in addition to the ones that say "GNU/Linux". 08:01:07 ams "we" do not hold, FSF holds on our behalf, but I object to tacit procuration; who (as in the People) appointed FSF holder of anything; it's people who delegate by contract to FSF to hold their surrendered rights, and thus lose those rights. what is mine is no longer mine when i transfer rights to another. 08:01:07 what 08:01:16 #forth, it has the crazy. 08:01:30 Sounds almost as topical as this channel. 08:01:54 SunTzu: that makes absolutley no sense, and you are spouting lies. 08:01:58 Idiots arguing with idiots. 08:02:58 He's sprouting lilies. 08:03:58 SunTzu: i can saftley say we seeing i've been part of the GNU project for some odd 20+ years 08:03:58 SunTzu: even before we applied for TM of GNU. 08:04:00 I had GNU on vinyl. 08:04:32 linux didnt exist before '93; i started using Linux in '94. 08:04:33 91. 08:04:33 SunTzu: more lies. 08:04:33 you started using gnu in 94. 08:04:38 DEAR GOD THE NOISE. 08:04:46 Hey fizzie, what operating system are you running? 08:05:14 I'm running the GNU/GNU/GNU/GNU/GNU/Lie-nux, because I want to GIVE RESPECT to the MAN. 08:05:26 fizzie: WRONG. You're running UNIVERSE. 08:05:30 That's the most important contributor in the scheme of things. 08:05:32 fizzie: LIES. 08:05:52 http://www.trademarkia.com/gnu-76627381.html ← must be the trademark he's talking about. 08:06:02 fizzie: Quick, what's the -ology of naming? 08:06:07 Chronological = ology of time. 08:06:12 Names, nomenclature, etc. 08:07:43 OH WELL 08:08:26 elliott: what happened in 92 or whatever, was that a bunch of people took a basic GNU system, and ported it to work with the Linux kernel. 08:08:32 fizzie: do you think this guy actually believes what he's saying? 08:09:14 Based on the quotes I've seen, he does sound like a True Believer. 08:09:58 fizzie: he maintains his blog as an info page... yeah, must be truly insane 08:12:12 if we are refering to the same tunes... 08:12:13 ams: Faré tunes, tunes.org TUNES? Expediency and whatnot? 08:12:13 Dead as a thing that is quite thoroughly dead? 08:12:13 elliott: TUNES is a Useful, Not Expedient, System? 08:12:13 Yes, yes. 08:12:18 fizzie: I think he uses the rms Web Browser. 08:12:22 i.e. another machine running a mail daemon and wget. 08:15:37 IMve understood one point of that is to reduce distractions; spending time arguing in IRC sounds rather defeatingous then. 08:15:45 s/M/'/ 08:16:31 fizzie: It distracts from vital Toe-Picking-and-Eating time 08:16:33 *time. 08:16:35 All GNU higher-ups do it. 08:17:02 Provided without context: can i be your first groupie? 08:19:01 fizzie: Oh, but I must quote something more. 08:19:02 "When will TUNES be done?" 08:19:02 prolly something like that ;-) 08:19:02 like Hurd, never 08:19:02 SunTzu: the Hurd has had three releases. 08:19:15 Only the Head Zealot could with a straight face defend the Hurd as not being vapourware. 08:20:04 2011 - year of Hurd on Desktop? 08:20:43 Sorry, GNU/Hurd. 08:21:31 -!- elliott_ has joined. 08:21:42 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:21:45 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 08:21:50 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 08:21:50 -!- elliott has joined. 08:31:08 Hmm, 08:31:34 *Hmm. 08:31:52 Are there any PEG parsers that automatically rewrite left-recursive rules as not? 08:32:12 oh, hmm, apparently ometa actually supports direct left recursion... 08:32:16 not linear time complexity but 08:32:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 08:42:11 Forth's simplicity in comparison is a testament to that. 08:42:11 testement 08:42:11 3 [e] 08:42:12 what 08:58:28 "Forms: Also ME testement, ME–15 testment." 08:58:39 (ME in this context being Middle English.) 08:58:54 :) 09:00:49 oh and learm more about fpga's 09:00:50 the Reduceron is implemented on an FPGA :) 09:00:50 kool 09:00:50 it's basically purely-functional symbolic hardware 09:00:50 nice 09:00:50 damn, i need to write (;code) 09:00:54 SunTzu: may i recommend learning english first. 09:00:56 i find it quite sad that computer programmers often tend to have immensly bad grammar, and vocabulary usage. we who are so precise in communicating with computers can't even use a stupid spoken language properly.. 09:00:59 A zealot *and* a jerk. 09:04:37 Why Chuck Moore doesn't respond to emails: "I won't respond to these emails, except on future postings. 'Cause I don't know who you are, and the the web is full of predators." 09:04:42 Chuck Moore -- secretly a child. 09:15:41 fizzie: The guy is IRCing from a vt320. 09:15:44 fizzie: I am not, in fact, kidding. 09:16:36 Well, it's not a bad terminal. 09:17:04 What does *he* run, anyway? GNU/Linux too? 09:17:09 fizzie: *GNU 09:17:10 GNU GNU GNU 09:17:11 GNUUUUU 09:17:14 Maybe he runs da HURD. 09:17:20 fizzie: I suspect that it is perhaps the only display device he has anywhere near him; he said I would have to convert to a Tektronics vector image to see it. 09:17:33 fizzie: (I was trying to paste a particularly complicated kanji to make a point about vocabulary, but obviously he can't see that.) 09:17:42 (I was going to use the GIMP to make a nice big png of it.) 09:18:14 Maybe gNewSense? 09:19:21 fizzie: UNFORTUNATELY it seems he has taken it upon himself to learn something about 99% of the languages on earth, so he knew "asztal" when I tried that at first. (Thanks to #esoteric for teaching me the single word of Hungarian I know.) 09:19:27 The man is a lunatic. 09:19:37 Previously he put me on /ignore for quoting a revised C99 specification when he asked a question about C99. 09:19:43 He said I was a liar because C99 didn't come out in 2007. 09:20:02 OBVIOUSLY the behaviour of free(NULL) changed since 1999. 09:21:00 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 09:22:57 Yes, it must be so that it was the same (do no action) in C89 and in your (I guess it's the "adds the three Technical Corrigendum revisions" one) draft, but briefly different in C99. 09:23:54 fizzie: Clearly. 09:24:01 fizzie: And as a liar, I should be /ignored. 09:24:12 Wow. Friendster still exists. 09:24:23 Like, "looks different to how it used to look" still exists. 09:24:59 "Over 90% of Friendster's traffic comes from Asia. In Asia, Friendster has more monthly unique visitors than any other social network." 09:25:04 Seems to be a Thing there. 09:25:38 Maybe that's why it looks... like that... 09:25:39 DEM CRAZY AZSHUNS. 09:25:46 Define "like that". 09:25:56 I think the homepage thing is randomificatified. 09:26:01 Ah, okay. 09:27:05 fizzie: YOU MUST SCREENSHOT 09:27:10 It's like... a rule... god i'm tired 09:27:12 oklopol: rarehui 09:27:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendster ;; uh, nice formatting fail here (Chrome). 09:28:24 http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/friendster.png is what I got; it's mostly empty thanks to noscript. 09:28:40 Honey... monstee? 09:28:43 Me no so good with spelling. 09:28:53 So, err, Friendster is all about games, apparently. 09:29:09 And fizzie uses slight, greyscale hinting with err... not Clearlooks Classic... 09:29:12 What is that GTK theme... 09:29:13 It seems to be a "social gaming destination". 09:29:20 Hmmmmm. 09:29:21 Oh. 09:29:26 Is it just the stock Ubuntu one, pre whenever? 09:29:30 (Whenever = when it was redesignified.) 09:30:02 -!- Lymia has joined. 09:30:02 This is Ubuntu 9.10 at the moment, and I haven't really touched the settings much. 09:30:39 fizzie: But you did change font hinting. 09:30:42 I NEVER FORGET A FONT. 09:32:38 There's a mass upgrade to 10.10 scheduled this month, actually. 09:32:47 Sounds exciting. 09:32:58 Also apparently 60 TB of new disk space. 09:33:03 "Uh." 09:33:05 Veggie oil; it's generated by burning vegetarians. 09:33:06 you're cute 09:33:06 lets have sex 09:33:19 ... 09:33:20 I think it might be time for me to exercise _my_ magical /ignore. 09:33:26 But first, to figure out how on earth to respond to that. 09:33:35 fizzie: Dude, it's GNU, it's all about freeee looove. 09:33:39 Maybe he's just trying to be friendly. 09:33:53 Also I think this is the first time anything has dumbfounded you enough to warrant an ellipsis on a line of its own. 09:34:29 It came out of the proverbial "left field". 09:34:30 I think I will just pretend to be afk. :p 09:34:35 * elliott /away 09:35:03 fizzie: Can we get a, you know, preemptive ban on him in here? :-p 09:35:33 Ask Gregor, he seems to be pre-emptively +o'd and all. (Tut tut, raising the channel temperature like that.) 09:35:56 05.11.24:06:59:34 ... 09:35:56 08.08.16:16:40:40 ... 09:35:56 08.08.21:01:20:05 ... 09:35:56 08.08.22:09:46:59 ... 09:35:56 08.08.27:12:55:59 ... 09:35:57 09.10.13:08:31:26 ... 09:35:59 10.10.06:11:46:53 ... 09:36:01 10.12.17:07:49:31 ... 09:36:03 11.02.24:12:56:21 ... 09:36:05 Well, so much for that. 09:36:25 elliott, respond with "Sorry, I'm /not/ gay." 09:36:27 Alternatively, the opposite. 09:36:38 "Sorry, I'm female. And gay." 09:36:49 "And, err, a paedophile." 09:36:56 That works too! 09:37:00 Maybe this is a cunning plot by him to make me shut up. 09:37:02 It's certainly working. 09:37:23 Ooh, he has a FACEBOOK ACCOUNT; that's not very GNU of him. 09:37:29 Oh god my #forth tab is now red. I am scared to click. 09:37:38 elliott you is goil? 09:37:39 YOU IS GOIL 09:38:15 fizzie: please join #forth and say something totally irrelevant but Forth-related. The madness must end! 09:38:33 keep it in your pant, ams 09:38:53 Well, the 09.10.13 was just "..." in the sense of "what I pasted above goes on"; as was the 10.12.17 instance. But the 10.10.06 one was a "real" one, as a reaction to fungot. 09:38:53 fizzie: and here i was going to change 09:39:03 fungot: Oh, but you must never change. 09:39:04 fizzie: do you like? have you considered making an interactive programming language for scientists, mathematicians and engineers that is also the explicit value of the arguement bpb 09:39:16 fizzie: DUTY. 09:39:17 #FORTH. 09:39:18 END MADNESS. 09:39:37 12:56:03 fizzie: i am your mother.") for online help, try /msg minion cliki? writing a cv in latex is not hard to do, 09:39:38 12:56:21 ... 09:39:38 elliott: and then we can all be haf. i don't want 09:39:42 fungot sure does amaze its creator. 09:39:43 elliott: lunarcrisis pasted " fibonacci" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 6949 ( unnamed in fnord 09:40:00 He doesn't want to be haf. 09:40:13 wah wah wah neglect social responsibilities 09:41:32 I'm such an irresponsible guy. 09:41:59 fizzie: I bet you go around having SEX with RANDOM PEOPLE ON IRC. 09:42:12 The irresponsibility, bounds, it knows none of them. 09:45:55 12:24:03 Quite a lot of names in the nick list compared to the ones that actually appear in the discussion; discuss. 09:45:59 fizzie: please ban all lurkers. 09:46:12 fizzie: yiyus and pingveno definitely have to go. 09:46:35 AFAICT yiyus has never said a single thing 09:46:42 oh no wait 09:46:42 he has 09:55:50 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:56:03 hey fizzie, did you actually sleep 09:56:57 -!- cheater- has joined. 10:23:14 -!- cheater00 has joined. 10:23:40 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:34:28 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:36:06 -!- cheater00 has joined. 10:36:15 why 10:39:32 nooga: ? 10:45:22 -!- cheater- has joined. 10:46:30 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:57:11 -!- cheater00 has joined. 10:57:24 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:00:55 fizzie: The Saga Continues: SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy 11:07:08 -!- Guest1055 has joined. 11:07:15 oh no 11:07:32 the cup is empty and i'm too lazy to make myself another tea 11:07:38 i guess i will have to eat leaves 11:08:25 nooga: ha ha, faux brit 11:08:45 ;p 11:09:39 nooga: go write my os for me 11:10:11 ok 11:10:15 * nooga goes 11:10:35 Now you inspired me to go look at how Hurd's been doing in the previous decade: "From 2004 onward, various efforts were launched to port the Hurd to more modern microkernels. The L4 microkernel was the original choice in 2004, but progress slowed to a halt. -- Since 2005, most of the developers' time has gone into thinking about Coyotos -- but progress was slow. In 2008, Neal Walfield began working on the Viengoos microkernel as an alternative. In April 2009, S 11:10:35 hapiro announced that work on the Coyotos project had ceased. As of 2011, development on Viengoos is paused due to Walfield lacking time to work on it. In the meantime, others have continued working on the Mach variant of Hurd." 11:10:45 Sounds like it's almost there. 11:10:55 fizzie: It still doesn't support USB. 11:10:58 Not one bit. 11:11:37 Well, you know, it's the Thunderbolt age now, or so I hear. Maybe they can just skip USB. 11:11:53 Yes, I've mentally prepared myself to be all old-farty about that. 11:12:07 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:12:14 It is taking surprisingly little effort. 11:12:16 They have that chaining thing. 11:12:22 But hey fizzie, I'm sure you'll have no problem, being basically 40. 11:12:23 "A single Thunderbolt port supports hubs as well as a daisy chain of up to seven Thunderbolt devices; up to two of these devices may be high-resolution displays using DisplayPort." 11:12:26 It's almost like SCSI. 11:12:30 *ahem* 11:12:33 fizzie is a person that is almost 40. 11:12:37 In fact he is practically 40. 11:12:40 Wait, it was 30. 11:12:41 Drat. 11:12:50 My tauntings are ineffective. or more effective than intended. 11:12:58 why do you make things so hard for me fizzie :( 11:13:03 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:13:09 30 is closer, yes; and both are still off in the same direction. 11:13:28 fizzie: You've been getting older at a rate of one year per year; aren't you 28 now? 11:13:29 So yes, 30. 11:13:55 28 in about a month, I think. 11:14:09 More or less. 11:14:16 It's OK, just means that you've only got ... 11:14:18 How do fractions work. 11:14:27 Sometimes they don't. 11:14:44 How far through 75 are you, if you're 30, as a fraction. X_X 11:14:46 My brain, it is the tired. 11:15:01 Meanwhilstly, http://www.wolframcdn.com/sponsor-ads/Mathematica-ring-a.png 11:16:33 fizzie, prove to me that you're not a robot. 11:16:52 How would you like me to do that? 11:16:55 Science. 11:19:05 fizzie: Awaiting science. 11:19:15 s" fizzie" s" robot" compare . -1 ok 11:19:30 fizzie: That's engineering, I want science. 11:19:32 Try proving it in HOL Light. 11:19:36 No wait. 11:19:38 That's mathematics. 11:19:41 fizzie: Calculate it with Fortran. 11:20:32 -!- cheater- has joined. 11:20:46 That may take me a moment; my FORTRAN is rusty. 11:21:03 But seriously though fizzie, did you sleep at some reasonable time and I just didn't noticed? 11:21:08 I feel this is disturbingly possible. 11:21:15 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:21:17 *notice? 11:21:24 Yes, I did; from about 02~03am to 09am in our time zone. 11:21:37 fizzie: You crazy man. 11:21:44 * elliott yawns. 11:21:46 God, is it only 12 pm. 11:22:10 So, err, fizzie, you know x86, what was I going to ask about x86, um. 11:22:17 HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT FORTH, FIZZIE 11:23:30 Not very much, I'm afraid; barely enough to get myself into trouble with it. 11:25:06 fizzie: well you see i'm doing this indirect threaded code SHIZZAT -technical term- where 11:25:10 ok so a dictionary entry is 11:25:12 name, code ptr, data ptr 11:25:21 for a "primitive", data=0, and code just points to the asm 11:25:23 but for threaded words 11:25:29 data points to a list of pointers into dictionary entries 11:25:30 i.e. 11:25:50 {ptr to @ entry, ptr to LITERAL entry, 1, ptr to + entry, ptr to RETURNOFSOMEKIND entry} 11:25:58 fizzie: BUT THE PROBLEM IS, the word that threads these right! 11:26:02 it has to keep track of its data pointer 11:26:02 but 11:26:14 all it can push on to the return stack is, you know, an address of its internal code 11:26:24 everything else might get clobbered -- and WILL get clobbered, if you call another defined-in-Forth word 11:26:38 I think the traditional solution to this is... I don't know, I think the normal method is more "direct" 11:26:48 sneaking another value on to the return stack sounds ugly to me 11:26:53 fizzie: impart infinite wisdom to tired soul 11:29:42 i feel like fizzie is a givings up. 11:32:19 nooga: why hath fizzie forsaken me 11:32:29 When it comes to Forth, I'm really more of an user than an implementor; when it comes to ITC all I know is that I've seen a lot of confusing rambling about it. 11:33:02 oh that's what ITC is :D 11:33:38 hmm... 11:33:46 i could do it the sane way maybe 11:34:25 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/threaded-code.html mips assembly 11:34:27 it's so helpful 11:35:29 ; x86 assembly language 11:35:29 ; Assumes that the first DWORD of a descriptor points to the intended code to execute. 11:35:29 LODSD 11:35:29 MOV EBX,[EAX] 11:35:29 JMP EBX 11:35:30 he 11:35:33 *heh 11:36:09 TODO: use lodsd 11:37:26 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:39:00 -!- cheater- has joined. 11:41:50 hmm 11:41:53 okay, that could work! 11:42:07 and i don't need the return stack any more. 11:44:26 -!- sftp has joined. 11:45:44 hmm, wtf is this even :) 11:45:57 ok so, [di] is the main thing. 11:46:59 er. wtf. 11:47:05 fizzie: is it usual if I end up having no return stack? 11:48:09 It sounds unusual, since quite often people do use r> and >r. 11:49:11 And for nesting those loop counters, maybe. 11:50:12 fizzie: yeah i think it's this thing known as umm 11:50:14 what's the term 11:50:14 a bug 11:50:19 fuck. this is hard. 11:50:24 fizzie: summon impomatic for me 11:50:38 he'll know what to do. wait. fuck. what. how does this even. 11:50:47 I'm all out of candles for the pentagram. 11:52:12 god. this is the worst. 11:52:44 hey. what if i just do it the ghetto way. 11:52:48 direct subroutine threaded code. 11:55:00 -!- ais523_ has joined. 11:55:47 oh, hi ais523_ 11:55:55 hi elliott 11:56:07 hmm, since when did qwebirc use a fixed-width font? 11:56:12 since forever 11:56:26 it used to be proportional sans-serif for me 11:56:28 on this computer 11:56:32 hm. 11:56:45 meanwhile, /me is working on his 510 byte forth 11:56:52 also, there's something wrong with the rendering of it, I think the characters are too far apart 11:56:58 bad hinting 11:57:15 dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd 11:57:21 qrstuvwxyz 11:57:40 also, i haven't slept 11:57:43 oh, I see, the characters don't line up within their bounding box 11:57:49 which has caused me to start writing (not on IRC) in ais523_-speak 11:57:51 elliott: you should try it, it's quite relaxing 11:58:02 I'm, uhh, realigning my schedule mumble. 11:58:32 http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2011/02/formal-comments-and-stylistic-lag.html?showComment=1299755098290#c5941692649704322889 <-- an impressive accidental emulation of ais523_'s style to make the exact opposite point that he'd make 11:59:29 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:59:29 whose blog is that? 12:00:41 ais523_: um, AFAIK the author's name isn't known; but it's one of the best programming language blogs in existence 12:00:50 ais523_: and I am sure I have reacted incredulously to you not noticing me linking to it before 12:00:58 so let's just pretend we went through all that again 12:01:13 hmm, if so I don't remember 12:01:13 -!- cheater- has joined. 12:01:23 (It's linked from the Loper OS site, but I don't think that's how I found it.) 12:01:24 and that comment doesn't match my style, it has two semicolons on the same indentation level 12:01:45 ais523_: what, can you not have a tri-pronged nesting, where all three parts are equal? 12:01:50 like "1 + 2 + 3" in infix 12:02:02 oh, you can 12:02:04 just not with semicolons 12:02:11 I SEE 12:02:57 hmm, I think what's up with the font is that this computer's had a different set of fonts installed, for whatever reason 12:03:07 and now it's showing websites like they want to be shown, rather than forcing the font to something sane 12:03:32 (this reminds me of my Epiphany custom stylesheet that forces a background and foreground !important onto everything, with a differently colored foreground for links) 12:04:41 hmm, proggit are talking about the price of Xcode changing from 0 to $4.99, and how bizarre it is for the price to be positive but that low 12:04:43 opinions? 12:05:09 ais523_: "meh" 12:05:17 fair enough 12:05:22 I'm just trying to figure out their reasoning 12:05:28 ais523_: Mac App Store apps are low-priced. 12:05:29 That's the rule. 12:05:32 Think iPhone app store. 12:05:41 hmm, yes 12:05:54 but IDEs don't really seem to fit into the model of impulse purchases 12:06:01 ais523_: And since it evidently isn't a _great_ issue for them (they did give it away for free, after all)... 12:06:01 especially not the main IDE for a system 12:06:04 No reason to break the mould. 12:06:09 I think it's just rabid dogfooding. 12:06:17 ais523_: It is a shame, though; Apple have been consistently pushing back programmability. Sure, the same is true of Windows, but on Windows, MinGW etc. are widely-supported and useful. 12:06:34 On OS X... well, I think you could probably use a prebuilt binary plus MacPorts to get yourself a gcc toolchain. 12:06:44 But it wouldn't work with the Apple extensions and APIs (or the latter at least not very well). 12:06:50 The iPad was bad enough. 12:07:06 This is just moving further away from the Commodore 64, like I said earlier. 12:07:23 Vague "meh" here too; as far as I understand it, iPhone development has been non-free all the time, and it certainly doesn't seem to hurt them commercially. 12:07:44 In other notable news today, I have been propositioned by a prominent GNU maintainer over IRC. 12:07:48 Now back to Forth. 12:07:58 Err, what was the bug, I've forgotten... 12:08:02 Did I fix it? 12:08:03 the lead developer of llvm commented saying it was for accounting reasons, on the basis that if you give something away free and then provide updates it plays hell with accounting 12:08:18 whereas it's much easier with an explicit price tag 12:08:18 ais523_: I think that was debunked. 12:08:25 ais523_: one, that act has been around much longer 12:08:27 than this 12:08:35 ais523_: two, they have been giving it away for free 12:08:43 and the accounting only applies to _free_ updates to _paid_ products 12:10:00 well, I think the argument was that there's a specific accounting rule for free updates to paid products 12:10:05 but not one for free updates to free products 12:10:21 so if you use the version with the rule in, at least you know what you're supposed to put on the balance sheet 12:11:21 ais523_: nothing, that's why it's free! 12:11:47 nah, balance sheets work both ways, money in and money out 12:12:06 you're not directly getting money in, but you still need to allow for the money it costs you to produce the stuff you're giving away 12:12:27 fuck accounting. clearly invented by people who had eight hours sleep the previous night. 12:13:21 heh, perhaps 12:14:39 ok, i... think i can write an interpreter word now 12:14:56 The pcworld article makes it sound like the free Xcode download was only for people registered in the iPhone or Mac developer programs, which is non-free. I distinctly remember it being really-free (well, you had to make a free account on the dev site) back around Xcode 2, I don't suppose that's changed? (There was something I couldn't find for free recently, can't recall what it was.) 12:14:58 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 12:14:59 no wait 12:15:01 i don't need one 12:15:07 fizzie: It is really-free. 12:15:13 I downloaded it, free, when I bought this. 12:15:23 fizzie: It also comes on the installation DVDs. 12:15:28 Perhaps that will continue, though it would be queer. 12:15:38 (I had no installation DVD, as this is a MacBook Air, which is TOO COOL FOR OPTICAL MEDIA.) 12:16:10 Yes, I remember it came with the DVD too. 12:16:31 "If you are not a member of either the Mac or iOS Developer Program, you may purchase Xcode 4 from the Mac App Store for $4.99. If you are registered as an Apple Developer, you can download Xcode 3 for free at http://developer.apple.com/xcode." 12:16:34 -!- cheater00 has joined. 12:17:09 Hmm'kay, so up to 3 it's still free-free (well, with registration); but the 4 is only free download if you're in the Prograsms. 12:17:28 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:17:46 The ams saga is progressing at a super-slow pace. 12:18:02 02:53:35 SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy 12:18:02 04:05:25 what is your gender? 12:18:05 The exciting last few chapters. 12:19:03 SunTzu: does it matter? 12:19:03 and what if i do not have a gender? 12:19:09 fizzie: This be some deep philosophical shiat, yo. 12:19:25 BREAKING NEWS 12:19:29 FACEBOOK REVEALS THAT AMS IS IN FACT A FROG 12:19:31 http://en-gb.facebook.com/people/Alfred-M-Szmidt/1318123348 12:19:51 Alfred J. Kwak. 12:20:09 Noooo! 12:20:10 I am conducting a survey of real and supposed genders online. this is a follow-up on a survey done during the mid-90s/ 12:20:10 anyone here using fasm? 12:20:15 It's going to get so much more boring if ams doesn't chime in soon. 12:20:19 no 12:20:22 That's not helping, ams. 12:20:29 i use gas 12:20:29 you dont speak for anyone but yourself. 12:20:30 ok 12:20:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:20:42 I could never have relations with anyone who used gas. 12:22:32 -!- pumpkin has joined. 12:22:35 -!- pumpkin has quit (Changing host). 12:22:35 -!- pumpkin has joined. 12:22:48 oh my god 12:22:50 12:19:49 nixness: don't use amazon, use your local library 12:22:51 from logreading 12:22:57 fizzie: he does the "boycott amazon" thing too 12:23:00 this guy is a literal clone of rms 12:25:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:43:17 hmm 12:43:18 wtf 12:43:31 fizzie, x86 expert: if I want like 12:43:37 an end_of_dict pointer 12:43:38 containing a single word 12:43:42 pointing to the end of the dictionary 12:43:46 I'd have to use it like [[foo]] right? 12:43:47 not [foo] 12:43:48 I think 12:43:48 yes 12:43:50 because foo is the pointer 12:43:51 fff 12:43:53 so tired 12:44:30 I'm not sure how that's a x86 thing, double-indirection. 12:46:01 fizzie: and how many hours of sleep did YOU have last night> 12:46:03 *night? 12:46:09 it's just ugly cuz it eats a register :( 12:46:20 Six, maybe? 12:47:11 fizzie: ah 12:47:12 allow me to tell you 12:47:13 my 12:47:15 corresponding figure 12:47:21 Z E R O ( 0 DEC, 0 HEX, 0 OCT ) 12:47:34 Yes, I've been briefed. 12:48:54 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:49:12 morning elliott 12:49:27 quintopia: hello 12:49:38 i see you've slept as much as I have in the last 24 12:49:44 fizzie: But have you been DEBRIEFED? -- and that's how the opening to the Worst Porn Ever goes. 12:49:46 but i finished that damned IPC project 12:57:57 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:59:32 -!- cheater00 has joined. 13:00:43 13:21:04 okoing? 13:00:44 13:21:07 ais523: okokokokokokokokoko 13:00:44 13:21:10 why would anyone do that? 13:00:47 (indirect quoting!) 13:02:03 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:04 okoing? 13:02:07 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:07 ais523: okokokokokokokokoko 13:02:12 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:10 why would anyone do that? 13:02:27 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:04 okoing? 13:02:27 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:07 ais523: okokokokokokokokoko 13:02:27 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:10 why would anyone do that? 13:03:32 13:49:48 * ais523 manoeuvers through a door standing on one leg and balancing a laptop on the other 13:03:34 While typing that. 13:03:36 Impressive. 13:04:02 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:07:31 hacking all day and night 13:07:35 it isn't good for sanity 13:07:37 * quintopia sleeps 13:07:51 quintopia: lame 13:07:57 u r a fucking 13:15:33 this log is quite a fun, first fax is all "I'M NOT SURE I BELIEVE THE UNIVERSALLY-ACCEPTED PROOF OF THE HALTING PROBLEM", then pikhq is all "WELL-FOUNDED RECURSION? YOU'RE MAKING THAT UP. HOW CAN YOU EVEN ENFORCE THAT. AND WHAT KIND OF TYPE SYSTEM DOESN'T ALLOW SKI" 13:15:48 19:30:10 madbrain: My point is that that's bloody hard without making something that's completely and utterly useless. 13:15:49 19:30:20 true! 13:15:49 19:30:23 oh you are one of these pragmatists 13:24:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:30:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:51:53 -!- cheater- has joined. 13:55:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:02:21 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 14:02:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:02:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:02:55 -!- augur has joined. 14:04:51 augur: Donate to the Gregoran Somalian Relief Fund! 14:05:44 (AKA the Help Gregor Get the libc.so Domain Name Fund) 14:07:52 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:11:31 Gregor: Donate to the Augur's 25th Birthday Fund! 14:13:56 augur: How about you donate $50 to the Help Gregor Get the libc.so Domain Name Fund, and I'll donate $25 to the Augur's 25th Birthday Fund :P 14:14:14 haha 14:14:43 Gregor: nahhh 14:15:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:17:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:17:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:18:53 Gregor: Read as 20/25 14:18:58 Was about to congratulate you on your economic skill 14:20:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:20:50 http://ultimateedition.info/Ultimate_Edition_2.8/107themes.png 14:21:04 They... combined an OSX look and a Aero look? 14:22:11 hah 14:22:21 looks pretty good actually 14:22:22 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:22:27 a little out of place 14:22:29 but good 14:22:31 I was... upset by it at first, but.. yeah 14:22:37 It does look kind of nic 14:22:54 nice even. I don't think you have to get a domain name or anything to use it 14:28:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:32:36 wb ais523 14:34:47 ty 14:35:49 * elliott is bringing back optbot 14:36:04 but first I have to figure out a suitably inappropriate language to write it in 14:36:08 I'm thinking maybe Ursala 14:36:10 or J 14:37:18 FORTRAN 14:37:33 ais523: now _that_ sounds painful 14:37:51 ADVENT was written in Fortran, it was one of the worst possible languages for it 14:37:57 but at the time, the only real alternative would have been COBOL 14:38:01 or LISP 14:38:03 which is just as inappropriate 14:38:05 which would have been perfect 14:38:14 elliott: well, definitely, given the langs available at the time 14:38:29 but I'm not sure if LISP would have been widespread in terms of people knowing and using it 14:38:32 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +b lisp!*@ai.mit.edu. 14:38:32 text adventure game == symbolic manipulation (parsing) + list manipulation (inventory, objects, map) 14:38:38 it's always been a sort of language for hipster academics 14:38:45 I don't think it's ever been mainstream 14:39:00 Gregor: Oi :P 14:39:09 ais523: "Crowther met and married Pat Crowther while at MIT." 14:39:21 ais523: so he was probably at MIT in the 60s 14:39:32 ais523: good chance he knew of LISP 14:39:34 "Google Chrome can't display the webpage because your computer isn't connected to the Internet. 14:39:35 " 14:39:38 LIES 14:39:38 yes, indeed 14:39:46 ais523: Don Woods was at Stanford, I'd be very surprised if he didn't when he extended the game, but of course by then it was too lat 14:39:50 *late 14:40:01 Sgeo: are you sure you're connected to the Internet? you could try contacting someone over IRC to check 14:40:32 elliott: well, it's known he knew SNOBOL (due to writing INTERCAL-72 in it), and it would have been a pretty appropriate language too 14:40:35 IRC? 14:40:41 I didn't see his line, clearly his internet tubes are broken. 14:40:58 ais523: ah, SNOBOL's possibly the only language _more_ suitable 14:41:23 Sgeo: elliott's topic about facepalming just got thrown into sharp relief for me 14:41:34 ais523, I'm not allowed to joke? 14:42:01 not if it's even more obtuse than Vorpal's jokes 14:42:06 Sgeo: you do realise that pretending to be stupid for the purpose of humour all the time will eventually cause you to be indistinguishable and therefore identical to a stupid person? 14:42:38 when I'm pretending to be stupid for the purpose of humour, I generally make my statements pretty obviously self-contradictory to make sure 14:44:09 Need to go to school, bye 14:44:30 FOTRAN and networking sounds a bit of an odd fit. I guess with the C interop stuff you could just use the BSD sockets API, but still. 14:44:46 fizzie: elliott did ask for an inappropriate language 14:44:53 and I was trying to pick one that was genuinely useful, just not for that purpose 14:44:55 maybe Forth 14:44:59 but argh 14:45:11 i need a big (two hundred megabyte) list of bytestrings that i can select randomly from 14:45:16 that are read from files that i lightly string-process 14:45:22 that would not be fun in Forth 14:45:32 nor in most of the other langs suggested 14:45:39 maybe I'll use C++, the most esoteric of languages! 14:45:49 although I imagine it'd be relatively simple in Ursala, actually 14:45:53 that is, compared to the rest of Ursala 14:46:12 can ursala even do networking? 14:47:19 it likely has a library, or at least FFI, for it 14:47:27 worst case you could just loop the program through netcat 14:49:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:50:08 hmm 14:50:37 if J had networking it'd be a good choice :) 14:50:37 well 14:50:38 it does. 14:50:43 but it's probably complicated. 14:52:48 ais523: how does overlambda fare? 14:52:51 on that problem 14:52:51 er 14:52:53 runderlambda 14:52:55 *underlambda 14:57:30 ais523: gotcha, terribly 14:57:43 I'm busy at work, thus everything is stalled temporarily 14:58:13 ais523: I mean, at the problem of optbot 14:58:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:03:11 oh, currently badly because I still haven't decided how to do I/O 15:03:28 it's such an ugly blemish on the pure maths of just calculating things 15:04:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:07:17 wow, I just typoed to a one-character web address (r.com) and found it a 404 15:07:25 who'd have a one-character .com, and not put a web page there? 15:08:39 gah, someone on Reddit claims that my argument that that rule 110 thing isn't a TCness proof is flawed because real computers don't have infinite memory either 15:08:42 IANA, according to whois. 15:08:42 and is more upvoted than me 15:09:45 Suggest we all have a go at him. 15:09:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:10:19 So... I missed my bus 15:10:45 Sgeo, quick, http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g0d5g/breaking_news_html5css3_is_turing_complete/c1k03fg?context=3 15:10:59 Upvote ais, downvote the idiot. 15:11:08 ais will be happy and give us cakes. 15:11:23 "Programming languages can be in the abstract, if they don't insist on infinite memory" 15:11:28 hmm, was gonna go all "jeez PH you are always so harsh", but then the guy really was stupid 15:11:41 i think i'm just going to have to upvote every comment ais523 makes on principle, though 15:11:50 That's his only one. 15:11:53 he has two. 15:11:55 At least from that account. 15:11:57 Oh. 15:12:03 ais523: you should have added "AND I WON THE WOLFRAM PRIZE SO YOU SHOULD ALL LISTEN TO MY EXPERTISE"; instant karma 15:12:54 * elliott reads Wolfram blab about what software he uses. 15:13:03 my guess: Mathematica, Mathematica, Mathematica, all running on a kernel made out of Mathematica. 15:14:04 Ooh, mathematica kernel? 15:14:47 yep 15:15:28 "What would be your dream setup? 15:15:28 Mathematica + Wolfram|Alpha everywhere!" 15:17:02 I'm tired. I opened SyllableOS page and ReactOS page, looked at the Syllable page, and was ... interested in ReactOS's new BeOS-based design 15:17:20 BeOS+Windows 15:17:24 Weird thought 15:17:48 I need sleep maybe 15:23:44 elliott, remember that cancer guy? 15:23:48 On Reddit? 15:23:51 ??? 15:24:01 lucidending? 15:24:03 Yep. 15:24:09 Adrian Chen says it was him. 15:24:09 I have no idea what you are talking about. 15:24:28 I have no idea what you are talking about. 15:24:33 Oh. 15:24:37 Lucidending. 15:24:41 Yes. 15:24:41 I only remember due to a r/circlejerk post that was rather... mean 15:24:47 Phantom_Hoover: Okay, uh, question: Seriously? 15:25:08 If yes: Stay classy, Gawker. 15:25:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:25:40 Phantom_Hoover: Source plz. 15:25:42 elliott, it's definitely on his Twitter. 15:25:50 http://twitter.com/Adrianchen/status/45054116405325824 15:25:54 "Have a feeling lucidending is about to have a Second Coming on @reddit... Maybe this is the start of our first e-religion?" 15:25:58 That's no admission. 15:26:04 Phantom_Hoover: That sounds like a ``joke''. 15:26:11 You may be unfamiliar with the ``term''. 15:26:33 elliott, read the rest of the tweets 15:26:40 elliott, I do have problems with detecting jokes which give no indication of being such, yes. 15:26:49 I see indication. 15:27:03 Which is? 15:27:06 Phantom_Hoover: I have a confession to make: I am secretly President of the World. 15:27:21 Unqualified, blunt extravagant claim that makes no sense == joke. 15:27:36 "I don't think anyone was hurt by lucidreaming. It just made Reddit's hardheaded skepticism seem absurd and selective." 15:27:41 elliott, erm, it made perfect sense. 15:27:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:27:54 ...lucidreaming? 15:28:10 Phantom_Hoover: No, it doesn't. 15:28:15 Sigh. 15:28:16 I have seen some suggestion that it was a hoax 15:28:16 elliott, explain. 15:28:18 No. 15:28:37 Hello oerjan, fill the topic with things that aren't so tediously stupid as to agitate my incredibly sleep-deprived self. 15:28:53 elliott, please explain why it was clearly a joke? 15:29:04 He's certainly acting entirely seriously about it. 15:29:43 http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2011/03/post_45.html 15:29:50 Show me where he is acting entirely seriously about it. 15:30:46 elliott, FFS, *saying that he was behind an IAmA which had no verification is not absurd*. 15:31:26 He does seriously consider it to be a major hoax, at least. 15:31:27 Phantom_Hoover: please do not irritate me with your failure to detect jokingness in offhand Twitter posts when I've had this little sleep. 15:32:06 elliott, then please get some sleep rather than just saying I'm wrong and being confrontational. 15:32:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: ZYGOHISTOMORPHIC PREPROMORPHISMS | LATIMERIA CHALUMNAE | CLASSIFICATION OF FINITE SIMPLE GROUPS | BULLET CLUSTER | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:33:19 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:33:36 Phantom_Hoover, "@owengood haha yeah, I did some research on that today and came to the same conclusion. Reddit is so full of shit." 15:34:05 I think Adrianchen considers it to be a hoax proving Reddit's gullibility in some circumstances, but may have been joking about being the one who started it. 15:34:16 Hmm. 15:34:41 * Phantom_Hoover → things 15:34:47 ITT I'm right, again. 15:36:38 I have a Scumbag Ola Bini to make 15:38:43 what did poor Ola do to be called a scumbag 15:39:06 Seph is supposed to have immutable objects, but mutable lexical variables 15:39:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:39:26 Closures will close over those mutable lexical variables and allow them to be mutated... 15:40:03 foo: #(n, #(i, n += i)), 15:40:16 Um, I don't know what that last , is 15:40:22 but bar = foo(1) 15:40:30 bar(5) 15:40:32 bar(5) 15:40:36 Those will mutate n 15:41:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:42:14 Although hmm, just because it's abusable doesn't make it evil. Maybe. 15:42:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:42:41 so basically Ola Bini is an evil hybrid of me, Vorpal and Gregor. 15:42:58 Uh 15:43:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:43:32 APNIC down 0.06: 32k to Cambodia, 8x64k+4x32k+16k to China, 8k+3x4k+2k+1k to Japan, 4k to Taiwan, 1k to India, /48 to Indonesia, /32 to Australia. 15:43:37 Mind you, I don't mind the mutable lexical variables, just closures giving write access to those as opposed to read-only access 15:43:51 Gregor: Unban lisp P: 15:43:54 *:P 15:43:55 oaihguidafhg 15:43:56 keyboards 15:43:57 they suck ass 15:44:12 Gregor: the source of his hat is obvious! 15:44:13 Anyways, school: Take two 15:44:14 Bye 15:44:19 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: -b lisp!*@ai.mit.edu. 15:44:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:44:38 BeholdMyGlory is a dialect of Lisp. 15:44:38 Honey's still banned though. 15:44:58 School: Take two: For real 15:45:04 -!- cheater00 has joined. 15:46:39 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:49:15 -!- augur has joined. 15:50:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:51:36 hmm 15:57:16 it's menial busywork, it's not like projects where I can architecture myself way out of space and then realise it'll be an unholy bitch to do 15:57:30 THEY WON'T RECOGNISE JAPANESE ONCE YOU'RE FINISHED WITH IT 16:02:03 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:02:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:02:23 :D 16:06:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:09:00 hi ais523 16:09:21 oerjan: i like the idea that i can butcher japanese to the point when i've learned a complete language that nobody else in the world has 16:09:46 you're going to fork japanese? 16:10:39 olsner: PRECISELY 16:11:01 prepare for japanese++ 16:11:45 pikhq_: hi 16:14:37 hi elliott 16:14:46 theory: ais523 is pikhq_ 16:14:50 I was in a meeting, and saw I'd been nickpinged but didn't respond to it because someone else was looking at my scren 16:15:04 *screen 16:15:36 I have a dream, where we all live in a world where IRCing at arbitrary points is socially acceptable! 16:15:41 (I didn't see who'd done it as I didn't have IRC focused) 16:18:26 wow, IE6 is "only" 3,482 days old 16:22:00 heh, just noticed on reddit: hg fetch == git pull; git fetch == hg pull 16:22:10 well, as equivalent as you can be for two fundamentally different DVCSes 16:22:30 ais523: fundamentally different? 16:22:33 git and hg are almost identical :) 16:22:43 well, as identical as they come 16:25:11 bleh, all languages suck at being amusingly imperfect for a certain task 16:33:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: well, being amusingly imperfect for a certain task is _hard_). 16:34:28 hmm, The Old New Thing posted the topmost window story again, this time ending with a list of things that programs might to do be really topmost 16:34:36 and the comments have come up with more and more ridiculous ideas 16:45:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:45:27 ITT I'm right, again. 16:45:34 like always! 16:45:48 Seriously, get some sleep if it means you're going to be like this. 16:46:19 I do, in fact, have things to do other than sit on IRC, strange as it may seem. 16:47:30 well, no, i am always right 16:47:54 wow, I just got what looks like probably a 419 scam, that's so confused I can't even follow what it's actually trying to do 16:48:10 although I like the way they typoed "scan copy" as "scam copy" later 16:48:24 elliott, I'm fairly sure you've been wrong but I am not so petty as to keep a list for easy reference. 16:48:59 I think they're offering to send me a Mastercard with $10.000,000.00, MILLION DOLLARS 16:49:17 as long as I pay a $650 shipping charge via Western Union 16:49:21 ais523: that's a... good amount of millions! 16:49:23 however it parses 16:49:37 obviously, that's a massively large shipping charge for one credit card, they're clearly trying to rip me off 16:49:52 also, the card apparently ends with ten zeros 16:50:00 card number, that is 16:50:03 which is suspicious in its own right 16:50:46 -!- cheater- has joined. 16:52:45 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:56:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:56:04 elliott has been wrong many times 16:56:22 oklopol: yeah, a whole 0 16:56:34 you have been wrong AT LEAST 0 times. 16:56:41 but also more 16:58:44 I have been wrong -3 times. 16:58:53 (It overflowed.) 17:00:52 i suggest you say something stupid a few times to cover your tracks 17:01:02 -!- Behold has joined. 17:01:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:02:12 Haskell can be used in practical contexts! 17:03:14 O RLY 17:03:23 -2! 17:03:52 Erm... mathematics has a utilitarian justification! 17:04:23 Obama is a good choice of leader! 17:04:28 Wait, that's not borderline enough. 17:04:36 That's unambiguously stupid. 17:09:53 do you directly see "if G is an undirected graph, G^c is the graph where (u, v) is an edge iff it's not an edge in G. show that for all undirected G, either G or G^c is connected" 17:10:09 finite graphs 17:12:44 oklopol, that's not a statement. 17:13:02 do you directly see the solution 17:13:26 I think so. 17:13:33 alrighty 17:13:46 Erm, wait, I was missing something, but I think I can extend what I had. 17:14:11 oklopol: lol ur homework on irc 17:14:37 oklopol, OI ARE YOU TAKING ADVANTAGE OF MY KINDNESS 17:14:40 yeah this was today's homework 17:14:47 FOR SHAME 17:15:08 i mean we presented the solutions today 17:15:35 this one takes about 5 seconds if you've played with graphs a lot, i'm just wondering if it's noobie friendly 17:15:47 well i'm sure it took me at least 20 seconds 17:16:09 I'm not exactly a noobie to graph theory, but I've not exactly covered it in depth. 17:17:25 have you done a lot of problems, or have you read some stuff on wp? 17:17:33 or something in-between 17:17:41 I have done some problems. 17:17:45 okay good 17:18:29 erm, or is it 17:18:34 not really, i was hoping anyone could do this 17:18:48 there's this guy who's wondering if he should take math or cs 17:19:05 and i'm trying to find something fun for him to prove so he'll learn to luv the mathies :( 17:21:38 Pythagoras :P 17:21:57 geometry is kinda stupid 17:25:44 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:29:22 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:32:33 -!- variable has joined. 17:33:51 geometry is the worst 17:33:58 geometry should be outlawed 17:34:16 elliott, yes, we know you've been scarred by GCSE "geometry". 17:34:20 no 17:34:22 all geometry is terrible 17:34:27 Why? 17:34:47 well because topology is what they call geometry that isn't shit and here you insert the troll face unicode codepoint 17:38:36 Oh also I actually came up with a decent name for my computer. 17:39:07 Phantom_Hoover: WHAT IS IT 17:39:10 Fagmachine? 17:39:12 Terriblepieceofshit? 17:39:15 Worthlesscraptop? 17:39:15 "henry". 17:39:20 That is the worst 17:39:47 topology <3 17:40:00 Phantom_Hoover: Considering adrienchen referred to lucidending as "lucidreaming" in his second Tweet, the probability of it actually being him has crawled down to -24. 17:40:02 (Out of 1.) 17:40:15 oklopol: my friend at oxford is doing topology and he's such a bitch about it, but that's because he's stupid, unlike you 17:40:19 elliott, yes, but if I get another one I can call it "dyson" and I will have a SYSTEMATIC NAMING SCHEME 17:40:25 (he's also the guy who's stupid about japanese, basically a total life failure) 17:40:53 Phantom_Hoover: dyson has to be a Mac: a bunch of marketing claiming innovation for shit that's been done for decades. 17:41:17 elliott, dammit. 17:41:32 How's this person stupid about Japanese? 17:41:48 Phantom_Hoover: He isn't, I just like shitting all over his reputation on IRC and then pasting the aftermath to him. 17:42:01 I get the feeling it quite upsets him, but, haha, he can't do anything about it. Except all the things he can do about it. 17:42:14 Like bludgeoning you? 17:42:17 elliott: bitch about it? 17:42:29 or just like not talking to me 17:42:35 he still hasn't ventured into this chan because he's like a total noob 17:42:43 would you like to flame him, i could arrange for him to come in now 17:43:00 yes?? 17:43:02 me? 17:43:12 elliott, yes OK. 17:43:17 i thought people at oxford only research the hip topics 17:44:00 oklopol, like fractals and stuff? 17:45:09 well i don't know, that algebraic topology stuff? 17:45:28 oklopol: he apparently "reefuses", i think he might be illiterate 17:45:36 refuses to what? 17:45:39 Suppose in each G and G^c there are exactly two classes of points which create connected subgraphs, A1, A2, B1, B2. By intersecting the partitions (finding common sub-partitions of the set of points of G) we will get {Cij = Ai n Bj}, a partition of the set of points of G. For a fixed i, Cij are all pairwise connected in G, and for a fixed j, in G^c. For two certain pairs (k, l) != (m, n) there is a set Ckl. In Ckl no points from Bl are G^ 17:45:39 c-connected to points in Bn, this means then that all points from Ckl c Ak are G-connected to points from Cin for all i, specifically to points of Cmn. This means that Cmn c Am is empty. 17:45:44 and what do you mean by "being a bitch" 17:46:06 all these questions cannot be explained by science. 17:46:20 mostly he just mentions he's doing topology work to me and i'm like DUDE stop bothering me with all this TRIVIAL BULLSHIT, that's my job 17:46:22 :/ 17:46:44 cheater-: did you get a contradiction? 17:46:56 oklopol: DID i get a contradiction? 17:46:57 Gregor, wait, since when were you an op? 17:47:09 Phantom_Hoover: since the holy hand of oerjan decreed it so. 17:47:14 he is our comforting guide. 17:47:25 And his first action wasn't to kickban cheater?? 17:47:26 oklopol: what does it tell you that all Cmn are empty? 17:48:03 and \Sum Cmn = points(G) 17:48:14 oh all are okay 17:48:49 notice how i went from having a finite amount of sets in the beginning to having an arbitrary later on without changing my assumptions 17:49:08 oh that clarifies things 17:49:22 not that it looked wrong anyway 17:49:28 it's just cause normally people see an example with an arbitrary amount of elements and they forget to check what happens if you have 1 element or 2 elements 17:49:41 so i decided to point out that possibility specifically 17:50:14 no, it's still correct because it's just a proof for the basic situation where you have two disconnected subgraphs each 17:50:36 but change the first sentence to A1, ..., AN, B1, ..., BM and you then have the general situation 17:52:34 why is Cmn empty as a conclusion? 17:53:00 because otherwise Cmn and Ckl are G-connected and G^c-connected 17:53:28 this can only take place if those sets are empty 17:54:00 remember, it's either connected in G XOR G^c 17:54:04 yeah 17:54:04 never both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111 17:54:08 hmm 17:54:14 or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111 17:54:56 oklopol does not know the secrets of the unvierses 17:55:10 as if you do 17:56:42 well maybe i'll start asking questions, since i can't see what you mean 17:56:44 "For a fixed i, Cij are all pairwise connected in G" 17:57:29 you mean, for every j != j', two vertices v, v' in Cij and Cij' respectively, there's a... path? between v and v' 18:00:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:00:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:06:10 anyhow i'll give a solution just for fun: let G be disconnected. then consider any two connected components G_1 and G_2 of G. then for all v \in G_1 and w \in G_2, there is an edge (v, w) in G^c. this means: if you take u and v in G, if they are in different components, there's an edge between them. if they are in the same component H, then take w \notin H, and you'll have the path u, w, v 18:06:50 yes 18:06:51 in G^c 18:07:01 that's what i meant 18:07:07 ok let me read your solution 18:07:26 *G_1 != G_2 there 18:07:54 type it again if there were any errors 18:08:10 you can choose w because G is disconnected, and the edge (v, w) must be in G^c because otherwise v and w are in the same component. 18:08:20 well just two obvious remarks 18:08:23 but sure 18:08:42 and is that it for your proof? 18:08:47 let G be disconnected. then consider any two connected components G_1 != G_2 of G. then for all v \in G_1 and w \in G_2, there is an edge (v, w) in G^c. this means: if you take u and v in G, if they are in different components, there's an edge between them. if they are in the same component H, then take w \notin H, and you'll have the path u, w, v 18:09:02 cheater-: yes, that's it, that shows G^c is connected 18:09:09 i give an explicit path between any u and v 18:09:20 of length 1 or 2 18:09:24 w8 18:10:42 you assume that both G and G^c are disconnected, and find a contradiction, but i don't really know how to interpret some of your claims, probably because i'm slow, but anyway. 18:11:17 ok 18:11:22 but you only proved a half. 18:11:41 you haven't proven that G connected => G^c disconnected 18:11:56 well no, but that's not true anyway 18:11:59 *you have only proven half 18:12:02 you just have to prove one of them is 18:12:05 not sure if it is! 18:12:08 sorry about being unclear 18:12:14 well it's obviously not true 18:12:21 maybe G connected and G^c connected 18:12:25 who knows! 18:12:29 it's unproven! 18:12:39 :D 18:12:54 well that's a valid point i guess. whatever it means 18:13:05 oh, wait. 18:13:19 i thought you were trying to prove G connected <=> G^c disconnected 18:13:37 but you're only trying to prove G connected or G^c connected. 18:13:40 yeah 18:13:46 sorry about being unclear 18:13:56 it's so obvious the xor is not true that it didn't occur to me 18:13:57 :P 18:14:01 nah, maybe it's not that obvious 18:14:16 but it's true: consider a path of length 3, u-v-w-z 18:15:14 just take a square with an antenna for G, and G^c is connected too 18:15:35 square with an antenna is a five point graph which contains a square, and additionally has a point which is connected to one of the square's vertices. 18:15:36 or that, but mine is the smallest example 18:15:42 so i chose that one 18:16:03 oh ya 18:16:07 now that i think about it 18:16:17 (that's not why i chose it, but at least it's a good rationalization) 18:16:23 (i chose it at random) 18:17:16 so if your proof works for the xor thing, maybe you have some detail wrong in there and i don't have to continue trying to guess what you mean 18:17:18 :) 18:17:29 nah, it doesn't prove XOR 18:17:50 just the or? 18:18:00 yes 18:18:37 it proves you can't have G and G^c disconnected at the same time. 18:18:50 oh tru 18:18:54 that part i got 18:19:15 have you read about the khan academy oklopol 18:19:29 no 18:19:53 it's making it into the news 18:20:12 it's some sort of funny school where they do homework at school and lectures individually at home 18:20:24 every time i read someone talking about it i think 18:20:31 KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!!!!!!!!!!!! academy 18:20:56 :) 18:20:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54 18:20:59 i don't watch that show 18:21:41 you don't watch youtube? 18:21:47 man, you're missing out 18:22:01 they had ali g on yesterday 18:22:03 Phantom_Hoover: I don't actually have ChanServ access, so I'm only an op as long as my connection remains stable :P 18:22:14 and today it's a double feature of beyonce and eminem 18:29:35 -!- elliott has changed nick to optbot. 18:30:40 -!- optbot has changed nick to elliott. 18:36:47 Hey Gregor, guess what simple operation Python makes low-level and hard 18:37:52 Left-shift? 18:38:37 Reading a line from a socket. Although it seems there's some newish API to do that automatically. 18:45:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:48:09 -!- cpressey has joined. 18:48:30 Sgeo, do you directly see "if G is an undirected graph, G^c is the graph where (u, v) is an edge iff it's not an edge in G. show that for all undirected G, either G or G^c is connected" 18:48:33 cpressey! 18:48:43 You ran out of things to do! 18:49:12 Productivity is a myth, or something. 18:50:49 sos. at pycon. surrounded by pythonistas. it's creepy. send reinforcements kthx. sos 18:51:21 Mistake 1: Go to PyCon. 18:51:29 Mistake 2: Go to PyCon, do not prepare for pythonistas. 18:51:45 cpressey, have you mentioned my Sierpiński numbers? 18:51:59 I like this new SOS-over-IRC, though. 18:51:59 That ought to clear them out quickly. 18:52:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:53:19 :optbot!~optbot@91.105.95.39 JOIN :#estoteric 18:53:19 :asimov.freenode.net MODE #estoteric +ns 18:53:19 :asimov.freenode.net 353 optbot @ #estoteric :@optbot 18:53:19 :asimov.freenode.net 366 optbot #estoteric :End of /NAMES list. 18:53:22 look at my coding skill. look at it. 18:53:30 spelling skill, rather. 18:53:47 Sgeo has left in fear of the sheer difficulty of the trivial problem. 18:53:52 :D 18:53:57 Phantom_Hoover: he solved it! 18:55:35 -!- optbot has joined. 18:55:36 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | but you can *create* data structures. 18:55:41 optbot! 18:55:42 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs). <-- DV?. 18:55:46 optbot: how are the haps 18:55:53 hmm. 18:56:02 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:58:33 cpressey, any word on the Pythonistas? 19:01:56 -!- optbot has joined. 19:01:56 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | SyntaxError: invalid syntax. 19:02:41 -!- optbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:03:04 oh, i actually filtered out highlights and things... 19:03:07 I'll do that sometime. 19:03:22 -!- optbot has joined. 19:03:22 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Perhaps somebody would be converted.. 19:04:05 -!- optbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:06:39 -!- optbot has joined. 19:06:39 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | hmm, /me thinks. 19:06:45 hi optbot 19:06:49 grr 19:06:55 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:07:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:07:30 pikhq: hi 19:07:33 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:08:58 "You had me at Py_INCREF(Py_None);..." 19:09:09 Is that... 19:09:12 Getting a reference to None? 19:09:22 Does this imply that None could theoretically be garbage-collected? 19:09:31 The philosophical implications are astounding. 19:10:07 Phantom_Hoover: I think cpressey is pioneering the Emergency Write-Only IRC Link. 19:10:38 Ah. 19:10:54 How do we send reinforcements? 19:11:02 Phantom_Hoover: This is because he wrote the emergency client in Python, which has no convenient socket readline function, as I have recently discussed. 19:11:18 I suggest we send in five USB sticks containing different versions of GHC. 19:11:24 And by god, let's hope of them gets to him. 19:11:33 Plus a prerelease CD of @ of course. 19:11:33 Dammit, APT Guy was visiting my neighbour earlier 19:12:02 He's a Pythonista; I could send him in to infiltrate the ranks and carry supplies. 19:12:15 You think he would carry GHC? 19:12:26 We could pretend it was something else. 19:12:27 He'd take one look at it and say, "this has punctuation and things. That's not Pythonic. 19:12:29 *Pythonic." 19:12:33 Phantom_Hoover: They can SMELL it. 19:13:00 elliott, pretend it was something else by encrypting it? 19:13:21 Phantom_Hoover: Their sense of smell can break RSA encryption. 19:14:07 elliott, hmm. Write one program to transform arbitrary files into vaguely-valid Python programs. 19:14:20 Then use it on GHC. 19:14:21 Phantom_Hoover: YOU CANNOT DEFEAT THE PYTHONISTA'S NOSE FOR PYTHONICITY. 19:14:24 IT IS SUPERTURING. 19:15:06 Yes, Py_None is a Python object like any other. When you assign a variable to it, you have to increment its usage count. 19:15:31 cpressey: Please don't tell me Py_None is allocated on the heap. 19:15:38 The fact that small integers are is bad enough (with a CACHE for the first 256). 19:15:41 I have no idea & I'm not going to check. 19:15:53 It would be awesome if, like, True and False were garbage-collectable. 19:15:58 cpressey, quick! Sierpiński them off! 19:16:43 Maybe Python's garbage collector is Turing-complete. 19:28:22 Phantom_Hoover: oh, i forgot about those. yeah. i should totally give a lightning talk on "Implementing numerical types between Real and Complex" 19:28:49 "between"? 19:28:51 what does that mean? 19:29:08 Totally. 19:30:30 WTF, Apple. 19:30:31 cheater-: I dunno but the Python docs suggest they went to great lengths to allow it. 19:30:45 You have to *pay* for XCode 4. 19:30:54 yup 19:30:57 cpressey: oh, that's what you mean 19:31:18 i don't like the fact that i knew that you had to pay for XCode 4 before Phantom_Hoover mentioned it. 19:31:26 i have no business with such information. 19:31:35 what's xcode? 19:31:49 i'm successful at forgetting things i shouldn't know. 19:31:49 i'm implementing LNUSP in Java during the breaks to keep myself sane 19:32:17 cpressey: what about implementing a reactive asynchronous programming framework in haskell? 19:32:20 cpressey: implementing things in java. 19:32:24 that's how i stay sane too! 19:32:38 elliott: lol 19:32:42 cpressey, implement Sierpiński numbers in Java! 19:32:56 Implement Java in Sierpiński numbers. 19:33:04 That sounds far more practical, realistic. 19:33:09 Implement sierpiński in java numbers. 19:33:16 (Note: I have no idea if either addition or multiplication are closed.) 19:33:27 i'm the only person who has ń on their keyboard without sticky keys. 19:37:59 Phantom_Hoover: trivially not closed under addition 19:38:13 see they have to be odd. 19:38:16 :P 19:38:23 oklopol, huh? 19:38:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpinski_number talking about this? 19:39:33 No. 19:39:42 It's my set of numbers between R and C. 19:39:58 hmm right i suppose that might not contain all of R :) 19:40:43 It's the set of points in the Sierpiński gasket embedded into C. 19:41:00 It's definitely not closed under addition, actually. 19:41:46 Multiplication... maybe; I don't know. 19:41:47 most certainly not if it contains two straight lines 19:41:52 addition that is 19:42:04 i don't really know how you do the embedding 19:48:52 Gregor: ban someone 19:51:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:51:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 19:51:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:53:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:54:44 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:01:41 oklolol: how come you're studying graphs right now? 20:01:59 er i'm just taking a few courses at random 20:02:10 so now you're doing geometry? 20:02:15 or w4t 20:02:23 no, i'm not doing any geometry 20:02:42 then what course has this come up in? 20:02:54 err this graph problem? 20:02:56 the graph theory course 20:03:21 graph theory is geometry 20:03:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:03:46 i'm taking graph theory, cellular automata, group theory (representation stuff) and complexity theory atm 20:04:05 how's CT? 20:04:13 graph theory is geometry? i suppose they both have lines and points. 20:04:24 graph theory = topology = geometry = peano arithmetic 20:04:26 graph theory is very much geometry. 20:04:29 = theory of wood 20:04:39 ... wood? 20:04:43 how do you represent an angle in... never mind 20:04:46 well it's a really simple course on ct, we're just doing the basic stuff like showing things np-complete 20:04:53 i don't think i want to know 20:05:14 cpressey: asking questions. that's the first mistake. 20:05:23 cpressey: you don't :p 20:05:24 i don't really see what the connections between graph theory and geometry are, but maybe there are some 20:05:49 oklopol: the connections are elaborately laid out in the theory of "cheater is a stupids" 20:06:26 i have a lot of benefit of the doubt to spare. 20:06:30 oklopol: well there are several connections such as simplex geometry, topology, etc 20:06:37 yeah 20:06:38 Phantom_Hoover, read logs 20:06:40 i'm all out of benefit of the doubt, can i have some oklopol? 20:06:56 *I read logs 20:06:59 Sgeo: for what purpose 20:07:01 iddiott, i would appreciate it if you actually learnt some of what you're yapping about, as opposed to copypasting reddit. 20:07:01 simplices give a sort of connection. i don't know anything about them. 20:07:02 Why did you paste that at me? 20:07:13 elliott, to see what I missed, in terms of things directed at me or about me 20:07:31 oklopol: they're cool 20:07:46 what do you do with them except implement groups? 20:07:48 oklopol: mainly because they bring a lot of geometry stuff down to finite numbers 20:07:56 Also, I don't know graph theory 20:08:09 you can implement fun stuff as fundamental groups of simplicial complexes right? 20:08:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:08:24 well the euler characteristic is one powerful tool that's easy to use with a simplicial complex 20:08:28 what's that 20:08:57 it's a number that is the same for the same kinds of shapes 20:09:17 ha ha oklopol doesn't know what euler characteristic is 20:09:24 * oerjan will now be murdered by elliott 20:09:34 i certainly don't know the term no 20:09:42 it's about how you oil things 20:10:00 so it's an invariant of some sort? 20:10:02 also quite often if you get a theorem that works on a simplicial complex you can generalize it to anything 20:10:06 yeah 20:10:42 and if you get one that doesn't work, you can generalize that to anything, too. 20:10:45 whee! head rush 20:11:03 Maybe I shouldn't complain about things written iin 1991 being boringly old 20:11:07 :) 20:11:36 now for any orientable surface you get a graph which is that orientable surface but deflated 20:11:46 can you be more precise? 20:11:49 everything is everything else (proof follows by induction0 20:11:49 (that's the topology part) 20:11:51 *) 20:11:57 i don't even know the definition of an orientable surface 20:12:04 erm 20:12:07 i suppose i do 20:12:08 well think for example of "genus" surfaces 20:12:21 sphere, donut, donut with two holes, ... 20:12:39 an orientable surface is one that can't pronounce Rs 20:12:58 * elliott awaits swattage. 20:13:03 and "deflated" means? 20:13:09 the air is let out. 20:13:12 elliott: huh? 20:13:12 I don't remember why I gave up on Mercury 20:13:17 an orientable surface is one that can't pronounce Rs 20:13:18 what does that mean? 20:13:18 oriental 20:13:21 oliental 20:13:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:13:34 Sgeo: it makes you psychotic even in very low amounts? 20:13:41 elliott: somehow i couldn't read your line correctly 20:13:44 Sgeo: it gives you kidney failure? 20:13:51 must be a temporary disorientation 20:14:26 If "IRC?" is not blatantly only pretending to be dumb, how is what cheater said... 20:14:34 Blargh 20:14:52 Sgeo: troll etc. 20:15:03 i need an autoresponder script. 20:15:17 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:15:22 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:15:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 20:15:23 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:15:23 elliott: that was not a troll, i almost made such a pun myself 20:15:37 oerjan: I never said that line in particular was a troll. 20:16:25 yeah, just everything he says 20:17:26 oerjan: now if you deflate a surface and get the graph, they have the same fundamental group 20:17:41 what's the fundamental group of a graph? 20:17:57 cheater-: you don't need to explain algebraic topology to me 20:18:11 oh right that was oklopol 20:18:23 sorry, i was just thinking "that guy starting with o" 20:18:40 oklopol: have oerjan explain it to you :D 20:18:54 i don't need it explained, i need it defined 20:19:55 oklopol: seriously though, it's the same as in a continuous space 20:20:03 it's just the set of different loops. 20:20:56 okay 20:21:08 as a group 20:21:11 just imagine you embed your graph in R^n, and imagine the fundamental group there 20:21:14 -!- pumpkin has joined. 20:21:14 -!- pumpkin has quit (Changing host). 20:21:15 -!- pumpkin has joined. 20:21:18 yeah 20:22:13 so if you have a doughnut 20:22:15 and you deflate it 20:22:19 don't you get a circle? 20:22:27 is a circle a graph? 20:22:34 i don't really know how you do the embedding 20:23:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:23:00 it is not 20:23:06 you take some points somewhere randomly 20:23:14 You put the triangle with one side on the [0,1] interval and the point in the positive imaginary direction. 20:23:15 probably at least two 20:24:03 so what graph could you get this way for instance? 20:24:27 what graph has Z^2 as its fundamental group 20:24:51 one vertex, two loops 20:25:03 those don't commute 20:25:09 (I did actually come up with a possible practical use for this, but it was even more crazy.) 20:25:27 you get a free group from that 20:25:28 two loops for a genus 1? 20:25:43 oklopol: ok that may be tricky 20:25:44 oh right you were answering the later question 20:26:03 -!- ab5tract has joined. 20:26:18 i was thinking abelianized fundamental group (aka H_1 homology) 20:26:24 haha homo 20:26:49 truly the most inspired thing i've ever said. 20:26:50 oerjan, "abelianised" is such a cool word I am going to drop it into every conversation I can. 20:26:56 well the torus surface has Z^2 20:27:02 Phantom_Hoover: O KAY 20:27:09 how do you get a graph this way.. hmm 20:27:12 "what did you do to my dog?" 20:27:14 "abelisanised it." 20:27:18 "its organs are everywhere." 20:27:19 "" 20:27:20 cheater-: erm not as fundamental group, no 20:27:35 (to be read in pfsc font) 20:27:35 Someone give me a name for a piece of software to call "osmium". 20:27:38 nope, certainly not 20:27:42 oerjan: surface, not the donut with the inside 20:27:45 Phantom_Hoover: Uh. Osmium? 20:27:52 Oops. 20:27:59 or... wait, what is the fundamental group there? 20:28:03 s/a name for// 20:28:20 cheater-: still not. the two directions you can circle don't commute 20:28:24 Abelianised osmium. 20:28:30 the fundamental group of a doughnut is Z^2 20:28:54 and that's impossible to implement as the fundamental group of a graph i think 20:29:00 oklopol: erm reference 20:29:01 with your definition 20:29:03 The fundamental group of the torus is just the direct product of the fundamental group of the circle with itself: 20:29:04 \pi_1(\mathbb{T}^2) = \pi_1(S^1) \times \pi_1(S^1) \cong \mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}. 20:29:09 oerjan: i just heard the definition, i don't have one 20:29:15 or reference for what? 20:29:25 oklopol: yes, i was talking about the donut, not the torus surface 20:29:25 wait wtf i'm wrong 20:29:29 donut = torus with jam inside 20:29:32 oh 20:29:43 oh well that's Z 20:29:47 yes 20:29:50 wait wtf i'm wrong 20:29:51 :( 20:29:53 never be wrong oerjan 20:29:55 it makes me sad. 20:30:04 "More generally, the fundamental group of any graph G is a free group." 20:30:12 sorry about being unclear, i'm of course talking about the outside, because the inside is just the circle, topologically 20:30:12 elliott: actually i'm not quite sure 20:30:22 oerjan: you're probably right :-)))) 20:30:26 well fundamental groupally 20:30:30 I should learn emacs 20:30:30 oerjan: yeah 20:30:37 that seems kinda obvious 20:30:38 Just about every fun language I read about has an emacs mode 20:30:46 Erm, not that I don't know the basics of emacs 20:30:53 I just need to force myself to use it 20:31:21 Sgeo, ...what do you use now? 20:31:26 oklopol: yes, but the circle can get reduced to a graph too 20:31:32 i mean if you have a path that's a circle, then obviously that path is just... well, that path 20:31:33 Notepad++ 20:31:34 oklopol and oerjan mathsing, Sgeo making us all palm our faces 20:31:35 (finite number of elements = easier for counting) 20:31:36 good old #esoteric 20:31:54 cheater-: yeah but that's a trivial case 20:31:57 Sgeo, ... 20:32:03 even your silly definition of a fundamental group works there 20:32:06 Sgeo, I hate you forever. 20:32:13 so i didn't take it as a counterexample of it not being silly. 20:32:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Notepad%2B%2B_screenshot2.png 20:32:38 Emacs works well for Clojure, as far as I can tell. It probably works well for most languages someone wrote a major mode for. 20:32:40 -!- TLUL has joined. 20:32:47 I've changed my mind, that's the best tab completion thing ever. 20:32:59 oklopol: how is it silly? 20:33:12 cheater-: well because it just gives you free groups 20:33:18 Assuming it has "explode" on all tab completions. 20:33:26 Sgeo, Clojure? 20:33:36 oklopol: yes, it does. 20:33:46 Phantom_Hoover: That was some PHP code, and explode is a common PHP function ... 20:33:52 Now I really *do* hate you forever. 20:33:53 Phantom_Hoover, please tell me you've at least heard of Clojure, even if you're morally opposed... 20:34:01 Oh, ok. 20:34:05 oh okay then 20:34:06 explode($sgeo) 20:34:25 ok i was definitely wrong 20:34:28 "Intuitively speaking, this means that a closed path that circles the torus' "hole" (say, a circle that traces out a particular latitude) and then circles the torus' "body" (say, a circle that traces out a particular longitude) can be deformed to a path that circles the body and then the hole." 20:34:29 Phantom_Hoover, what's so horrible about Clojure? 20:34:32 People code Lisp dialects in non-Emacs? 20:34:40 Besides being on the JVM 20:34:42 That sounds like Welcome to Pain City, Pain Population: You. 20:34:48 Except maaaybe vim. 20:34:57 elliott, what about DrRacket? 20:35:06 oerjan: what were you wrong about? 20:35:07 Vim's Scheme indentation mode used to suck incredible amounts of suck. It's better nowadays. 20:35:10 Sgeo, you *know* about my experience with #clojure. 20:35:14 Oh, right 20:35:16 Forgot. 20:35:21 Wait, fizzie expressed *dislike* for something?? 20:35:30 No, sucking is good. 20:35:34 So, so good. 20:35:36 fizzie: Well, it's written in vimscript. I have a feeling even writing suck in that is a chore. 20:35:42 no, fizzie is stating a statistic: people considered it sucky before 20:35:56 So one or two people in some IRC channel don't know elementary CS math 20:36:05 Big whoop. Unless it was Rick 20:36:08 Sgeo: *GASP* 20:36:15 oklopol: about the torus giving a free group. 20:36:28 Sgeo, at least one of them was directly involved in the language. 20:36:34 did you say the torus gives you a free group? 20:36:45 as its topological fundamental group? 20:37:19 no torus gives you Z or Z^2 depending on which torus you mean (full or hollow) 20:37:33 oklopol: i implied it 20:37:53 oh okay indeed 20:38:03 http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/osmiumpricesusdollars.html 20:38:08 OK this is the silliest thing ever. 20:38:08 Gregor: For context, not a single person in #clojure would state outright that O(log_32 n) = O(log n). 20:38:14 TAX FREE OSMIUM 20:38:29 elliott: O_O 20:38:30 Gregor: A majority argued that they were the same in theory but not in practice, and a small minority argued that it was just harmless semantics. 20:38:41 Gregor: SO ONE OR TWO PEOPLE IN SOME IRC CHANNEL DON'T KNOW ELEMENTARY CS MATH HURP DERP 20:38:48 elliott: probably because this notation is illegal. 20:38:58 what? 20:39:09 elliott: but that just might be coming up after you get out of high school. 20:39:34 oh right elliott is just a little kid xD 20:39:44 cheater-: are you a mathematician 20:39:45 oklopol: ...what? 20:39:59 oklopol: no! 20:40:09 cheater- is presumably being an idiot. 20:40:13 oh. 20:40:22 elliott: well after he pointed out that you are younger than him, i immediately understood why order notation is illegal 20:40:23 cheater-, let's just say that even I know what the notation is. 20:40:29 Yes, he is. 20:40:33 oklopol: has he used the hilarious name "idiott" yet 20:40:36 that's the best one imo 20:40:51 Sgeo: there's no such thing as O(x) = O(y) in mathematics. 20:40:56 he clearly knows more math than me and oerjan put together 20:41:23 cheater-, so how would I describe that O(2) and O(1) are the same thing? 20:41:26 cheater-: O(f) is the set of functions g such that there exist n and c such that g(x) <= cf(x) for all x >= n? 20:42:06 oklopol: yes, and no 20:42:10 oklopol, you'll have to repeat that to me later. 20:42:14 cheater-: ? 20:42:19 I'm not entirely certain of the exact definition. 20:42:25 Although I guess you just said it. 20:42:25 Sgeo: it's on wp :) 20:42:31 I'll need to stare at it more 20:42:35 (i should hope so, at least) 20:42:43 oklopol: the problem is that traditionally using equality on the object O(f) is to be interpreted as an \in sign. 20:42:52 cheater-: erm, that's just notation 20:43:08 He is arguing about notation. I think. 20:43:33 oklopol: sure, so following your train of thought 8=2 is valid mathematics 20:43:36 for some notation. 20:43:38 notation that often makes stuff easier to state in number theory and that's completely useless in cs 20:44:01 hurp derp pedantry is mathematics 20:44:07 cheater-: the difference is everyone knows what the O notation means 20:44:10 that's why all math notation is unambiguous 20:44:23 8=2 is true in the group of R modulo 6 :P 20:44:29 * Sgeo hits someone with pi(20) 20:44:29 elliott: Oh, it is even so that Vim nowadays has a "LISP indentation" mode built-in (well, when compiled with +lispindent). It used to be scripted and amazingly slow; several seconds of waiting when you pressed enter inside a dozen-line expression. 20:44:40 fizzie: Implessive. 20:44:41 Gregor, that's not a group! 20:44:44 Gregor: in which case it'd be 8 == 2 :p 20:44:50 fizzie: *Impleththive. 20:44:55 An Asian Lisper. 20:45:20 8==2? sorry what's this == 20:45:38 i have never seen it before. 20:45:41 that's not real mathematics. 20:45:43 clearly it's lies. 20:45:49 now ≡, I know that. 20:46:00 ==, though, def. not mathematics 20:46:01 Phantom_Hoover: You're right, it's a set. I suck at pedantry :( 20:46:19 YOU CLEARLY SUCK AT MATHS 20:47:04 ☐? what's this? 20:47:36 i'm afraid your fancy character set isn't compatible with the rest of the internet 20:48:02 Yeah, UTF-8, who uses that. 20:48:06 Certainly not anyone on IRC. 20:48:12 fizzie: you ever used UTF-8? 20:48:24 I've never used UTF-8. 20:48:39 elliott: Isn't that the thing they put in strawberries to keep the shine? 20:48:46 fizzie: Y...ees. 20:48:53 You tea eff eight? 20:49:13 It's when your still-alive dinner has an orgy with eight others. 20:49:16 A tragic experience. 20:49:48 -!- cheater00 has joined. 20:50:52 "C++ is crime against humanity, and its creator is the programming equivalent of Saddam Hussein." 20:51:21 I like the fact that this gold tracking site also tracks everything in the platinum group. 20:51:42 Because rhenium is such an investment! 20:52:02 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:54:14 Sgeo: --taw, I believe. 20:54:33 yes, although this URI has t-a-w in it 20:54:36 http://t-a-w.blogspot.com/2007/02/right-to-criticize-programming.html 20:54:50 Yes, I suppose taw.blogspot.com was taken. 20:54:55 Indeed. 20:56:07 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 21:00:54 WEEKEND 21:02:24 pikhq: HELLO 21:02:30 pikhq: ams is more insane than previously believed. 21:02:49 elliott: Do tell. 21:03:10 pikhq: I present a three-line snippet from #forth today, provided with all the context it had originally, i.e. none whatsoever: 21:03:13 Veggie oil; it's generated by burning vegetarians. 21:03:13 you're cute 21:03:13 lets have sex 21:03:40 That's not ams's insanity, just his sense of humor. 21:03:42 I SEE NOTHING INSANE ABOUT THAT 21:03:49 At least, I *strongly* hope so. 21:04:00 pikhq: YOU WANNA BET. 21:04:07 elliott: Not especially. 21:04:10 oerjan: Oh come on, the 40 year old paedophile thing is so cliché. 21:04:20 your kind of ugly 21:04:24 let's have sex anyway 21:04:26 Few people have come ahead betting against humans being insane. 21:04:28 *you're 21:04:29 llool 21:04:33 He looks like a girl, as well. 21:04:38 quintopia, there? 21:04:42 01:37:32 elliott you is goil? 21:04:42 01:37:47 Not that I'm aware of. 21:04:42 01:37:50 k 21:04:42 01:37:52 just chking 21:04:42 01:38:16 keep it in your pant, ams 21:04:43 [...] 21:04:45 02:53:35 SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy 21:04:47 04:05:25 what is your gender? 21:04:49 04:18:30 SunTzu: does it matter? 21:04:51 04:18:40 and what if i do not have a gender? 21:04:53 pikhq: FURTHER ADVENTURES INTO CRAZY 21:05:10 your kind of ugly; lets have s'ex anyway 21:05:14 GRAMMAR WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN 21:05:20 elliott: It's easier to just call him an asshat. 21:05:26 It's demonstrable. 21:05:51 pikhq: Before that he was arguing for the "GNU/Linux" term with abject sincerity, and then *honestly strongly implied that the Hurd was not vapourware*. 21:05:58 Even from the GNU System maintainer, I mean... seriously. 21:06:18 Well, they do have *something* to show for their decades of effort. 21:06:19 00:13:38 yea, that was spam and the one prev was dehtml scrubbed clean, so i dont know what it said. no significant content 21:06:19 00:13:54 "When will TUNES be done?" 21:06:20 00:13:59 prolly something like that ;-) 21:06:20 00:14:02 like Hurd, never 21:06:20 00:14:17 SunTzu: the Hurd has had three releases. 21:06:21 THREE VERY SERIOUS RELEASES 21:06:26 So I guess technically it isn't vapourware. 21:06:27 Supports everything except USB, and everything else. 21:06:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:06:41 Just an insanely slow development process. 21:06:50 elliott: Well, yeah. It has a Linux 2.2 driver stack. 21:07:37 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/g165z/what_is_the_name_of_that_saxophone_song_thats/ best reddit thread ever 21:08:09 http://blog.fogus.me/2011/03/09/recursion-is-a-low-level-operation/ 21:08:16 RECURSION IS LOW-LEVER 21:08:23 ALSO LOW-LEVEL 21:08:42 (Actually, his point is perfectly sane, but he uses Clojure so I hate him.) 21:08:56 I wouldn't necessarily call it "low-level", but it certainly should be avoided in functional languages when possible. 21:09:01 Phantom_Hoover: Oh come on, fogus is a good guy. 21:09:12 And plenty of sane people use Cojure, it's just an honest mistake and whatnot. 21:09:18 HMM 21:09:31 Even the Arcane Sentiment guy has good things to say about it; it's everyone involved with it who _isn't_ the language creator who's the problem. 21:09:43 Seriously though, your hate gland is even more hyperactive than mine. 21:09:50 Build your functions out of other clearly understandable functions that happen to be implemented recursively. This makes shit not mind-bending. 21:10:04 pikhq: Tail recursion is iteration, which is low-level. 21:10:11 Non-tail recursion is higher-level. 21:10:13 elliott, hating things is FUN 21:10:16 But it's still not natural. 21:10:28 elliott: Okay, tail recursion is definitely a low-level. 21:10:36 It's a totes low levels. 21:10:36 Tail recursion: All the flavor of recursion, but with no more fat than iteration! 21:10:54 Gregor: I can't believe it's not imperative! :P 21:11:06 ANYWAY. Tomorrow I am buying RTK1 and maybe 3. Today, it turns out, that there is a level of sleep deprivation, at which it is impossible to use amazon.co.uk. 21:12:34 -!- treederwright has joined. 21:12:42 is this a esoteric room 21:13:05 Yes. 21:13:08 -!- ab5tract has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:13:22 treederwright: http://esolangs.org/ has more on our mystical order. 21:13:25 what? am i being asked if i'm a girl? i don't understand! 21:13:26 No, it's a channel, which is to say a particular partition of the communication through a network which are all tagged with a relevant channel identifier. It has no physical substance, and is as such not a room. 21:13:31 Isn't that right, brother oerjan. 21:13:40 O! The Godly One Gregor speaketh towards us. 21:13:43 quintopia, you should totally be stocking up on osmium rather than gold. 21:13:44 * elliott bow 21:13:51 It's better in like every way. 21:13:54 Phantom_Hoover: BOW 21:13:55 Gregor speaketh of the mystical Multiplexing. Hallowed be the concept. 21:13:56 im new here, but i am a member of esoteric orders 21:13:58 * oerjan ponders the mystical wisdom of letting elliott being our welcoming committee 21:13:58 Phantom_Hoover: i've already cornered the market in osmium 21:14:04 oerjan: :P 21:14:07 AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM 21:14:09 quintopia, how much do you have? 21:14:10 AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM 21:14:12 is anyone here rosicrucian? 21:14:18 oerjan: how's that goat doing, any blood left in it yet 21:14:18 *be 21:14:21 or a member of the tradition of the temple 21:14:24 treederwright: BAHAHAHA! Of course! 21:14:24 treederwright, sure, I'll be one. 21:14:32 Phantom_Hoover: none. how much more is it worth than platinum? 21:14:36 treederwright: Doubtful; this is esoteric in the sense of esoteric programming languages, not in the sense of esotericism. 21:14:42 pikhq: What? 21:14:46 pikhq: You speaketh foul of our intents. 21:14:49 * Gregor looks at the @ next to his name and twiddles his thumbs. 21:14:51 quintopia, its cost per gram is about half that of gold. 21:15:00 pikhq: Has't teou a malice in'st thou intention? 21:15:03 Phantom_Hoover: MEH 21:15:16 Gregor: O Decider 21:15:23 elliott: I haþ neiþer malice nor ſlander in mine intents. 21:15:26 *But* it looks awesome, is the second-hardest and the densest metal, and can be used for chemical warfare in a pinch. 21:15:29 -!- cal153 has quit. 21:15:31 I shall but twiddle. 21:15:37 im in the wrong area 21:15:41 pikhq: Habetis igitur verbum herba. 21:15:42 this is for computer stuff 21:15:45 treederwright: Incorrect. 21:15:46 Why yes, yes you are :P 21:15:48 Wrongest. 21:15:53 treederwright, computer esoterica! 21:15:53 This is for Rosicrucian only. 21:16:02 elliott: Do you even know what that *is*? 21:16:03 lol 21:16:03 Please - ignore the misleaders. 21:16:05 treederwright: sadly we've never found a better irc channel to point people like you to 21:16:10 They are intended only to filter out the True Believers. 21:16:12 We do graph theory on pentagrams. 21:16:21 Phantom_Hoover: :P 21:16:25 oklopol, quick, prove something about the, 21:16:27 *them. 21:16:29 i am just amazed at your funniness 21:16:34 pentagrams have four sides 21:16:34 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Twiddle. 21:16:36 there you go 21:16:40 How is this nick not taken! 21:16:42 enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 21:16:44 quintopia, ALTERNATELY: stock up on iridium. 21:16:47 `addquote enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 21:16:53 is pentagram the circle of 5? 21:16:57 Phantom_Hoover: iridium is shit 21:17:00 as a graph i mean 21:17:01 that sounds like a charlie sheen quote 21:17:02 *cycle 21:17:08 treederwright, what're the dimensions of the matrix of solidity? 21:17:08 ENTER MY OCTAGON AND FACE MY MATRIX OF SOLIDITY 21:17:10 elliott: Hallo thar is no HackEgo and I can't bring it back up right now :P 21:17:17 Twiddle: WHYYYYYYYY 21:17:36 Twiddle: My home router went kashits and I can't ssh in. 21:17:37 quintopia, NO IT ISN'T 21:17:51 treederwright: the determinant of my matrix is 0 :< 21:17:57 the WORST kind of solidity 21:18:01 Is the matrix of solidity square? Is it invertible? 21:18:06 it's not invertible! 21:18:07 STILL NO EGOBOT EH 21:18:08 Apparently oklopol's matrix is not invertible. 21:18:08 I WILL BE YOUR EIGENVECTOR 21:18:08 that's the problem 21:18:10 -!- treederwright has left (?). 21:18:15 NOO 21:18:16 oklopol: I hear there's new treatments nowadays for that kind of stuff. 21:18:22 noooooo, the one person who could save us 21:18:23 from our 21:18:24 MATRICES 21:18:25 OF 21:18:25 SOLIDITY 21:18:26 or wait 21:18:30 is there just one big one 21:18:31 WE WILL NEVER FIND THE INVERSE OF OUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY 21:18:45 elliott: Perhaps all our matrices are submatrices of the matrix of solidity. 21:19:01 -!- elliott has set topic: The Residence of the Entrapments of the Matrix of Solidity | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/. 21:19:02 oklopol: are you living in a post-singularity world? 21:19:16 -!- elliott has set topic: The Residency of the Entrapments of the Matrix of Solidity | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/. 21:19:19 quintopia, IRIDIUM KICKS PLATINUM'S ASS 21:19:41 Phantom_Hoover: platinum is a metal. it doesn't have an ass. 21:20:02 quintopia: Certain samples of platinum possess an ass. 21:20:09 And iridium can kick the ass of such samples. 21:20:36 quintopia, um, but, yeah, surely if you're stocking up on precious metals for your crazy survivalist plans you should at least use one with *some* practical application once civilisation collapses. 21:21:08 There won't exactly be much demand for catalytic converters. 21:21:13 Phantom_Hoover: Iron! 21:21:28 And get skill at smithing. 21:22:04 pikhq, well yeah, but iridium is basically like diamond in Minecraft. 21:22:18 It's really hard and it's very resistant to corrosion. 21:22:39 I dream of a day where every physical object is explained in terms of Minecraft. 21:22:46 Including activities such as "mining". 21:22:58 Phantom_Hoover: the precious metals are only to be used as portable trade items. the most important feature such a metal can have is rarity. 21:23:10 quintopia, iridium is effing rare. 21:23:22 Phantom_Hoover: You're arguing with a guy who prioritises trade of meaningless goods over survival in a post-apocalyptic scenario. 21:23:22 Yeah, iridium makes gold look like candy. 21:23:25 There is no reasoning to take place. 21:23:48 elliott: what. 21:23:55 They mine three tons every year. Total. 21:23:59 quintopia, iridium is found *in platinum deposits*. 21:24:02 quintopia: wasn't that the thing you were saying. 21:24:04 i think that was you. 21:24:07 it might not have been you. 21:24:20 *In trace amounts.* 21:24:46 iridium is quite pretty. 21:24:50 elliott: ah, no. in a post-apocalyptic scenario a portable trade good is not exactly top priority. highest priority is food shelter clean water guns and ammunition :P 21:25:00 i'd like a ring made out of iridium or something. 21:25:04 quintopia, yes, and iridium is actually *useful* there. 21:25:14 -!- rodgort has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:25:16 elliott, I want one made of osmium because it has an awesome colour. 21:25:26 Phantom_Hoover: where can i buy iridium coins *now*? 21:25:33 quintopia: Why guns, perfect time to start an anarcho-syndicalist commune :P 21:25:44 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:25:48 Except then I found out that its oxide is really toxic and forms from air. But then I found somewhere else saying that it was perfectly safe as a solid. 21:25:50 elliott: to defend the anarcho-socialist commune from people with guns 21:26:04 quintopia: but what if EVERYONE starts their own commune of one 21:26:05 WHAT THEN 21:26:27 elliott: then i'd be in my own commune of one 21:26:28 Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Osmium_cluster.jpg 21:26:30 that is sexy. 21:26:35 quintopia, http://www.advent-rm.com/materials/Iridium.htm 21:26:38 do want ring. 21:26:39 (i think you could have worked this out on your own) 21:26:40 -!- variable has joined. 21:26:56 Alternately go for osmium because it's also pretty hard and unreactive enough. 21:27:00 And looks awesome. 21:27:04 so what's the rarest thing that's rare 21:27:22 Well, the rarest elements are all ultra-radioactive and hence worthless. 21:27:30 *awesome 21:27:37 *delicious 21:27:47 Nah, you can only get a few atoms in a lump of uranium ore. 21:28:16 what's the rarest thing that isn't super-radioactive :-P 21:28:22 Not sure. 21:28:27 Iridium is extremely rare. 21:28:34 not as rare as happiness. 21:28:39 quintopia, more specifically, http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/lines.aspx?criteria=material&materialid=20 21:28:47 It's really hard to machine, though. 21:28:58 Damn they pricey. 21:29:06 There's 3 elements rarer than iridium on Earth. 21:29:07 Let's get the £1,110 one. 21:29:13 holy shit 21:29:15 Rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium. 21:29:16 4.40 g/m, 2m 21:29:17 elliott, ...it doesn't list prices. 21:29:21 0.5 mm diameter 21:29:25 Phantom_Hoover: ...click a product line number 21:29:27 http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/items.aspx?criteria=line&linenumber=IR5248 21:29:27 Oh, right. 21:29:27 £1309 for one coin? 21:29:27 ZOMG 21:29:28 PRICES 21:29:31 that's hardly tradeable 21:29:35 oh 0.5 isn't much there's more 21:29:37 what's the thickest 21:29:39 .25 looks like 21:29:42 thickness vs diameter 21:29:44 (exempting highly unstable elements) 21:29:58 quintopia: Dude, *gold* isn't even that tradable. 21:30:03 They sell discs. 21:30:08 Y'know what's tradable? Canned goods. 21:30:14 http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/items.aspx?criteria=line&linenumber=IR1619 21:30:16 last one is most expensive 21:30:17 let's buy it 21:30:24 you know what goes bad in a year? canned goods. 21:30:47 If everything collapses, people aren't going to *give a shit* about shiny. 21:30:51 (not always a year. but they lose nutritional value after at least a few) 21:31:23 pikhq: ah, it's not that it's shiny. it's that it is portable and has a long-established value association. 21:31:34 sure, tools and useful goods are best for trade 21:31:34 -!- rodgort has joined. 21:31:41 but what if you don't have anything that person needs 21:31:44 quintopia, http://www.platinumgroupmetals.org/ 21:31:59 It also possesses no innate use when you're fighting for your life. 21:32:19 Osmium is the second-cheapest, after ruthenium. 21:32:32 i think you're looking too far ahead 21:33:08 I think you're being far too optimistic in your assessment of a worst-case scenario. 21:33:11 it's most valuable during the apocalypse. the transition period immediately after fiat money becomes valueless but stores still have wares to sell 21:33:22 you think stores will still be operated post-apocalypse? 21:33:23 No, I'm looking as far as "I want some of this, screw the apocalypse." 21:33:23 L O L 21:33:34 thankyoucomeagain 21:33:47 the ones that have guns and valuable stuff for survival will 21:33:53 and then they'll run out of stuff 21:33:59 but later stores will happen again 21:34:02 because people are people 21:34:03 Hah. Hah. No. They'll be fucked. 21:34:06 that's what they do 21:34:12 where's the book of shitty unrealistic libertarian fantasies you took this from :) 21:34:20 stores will happen again...sure 21:34:32 If fiat money goes away, expect looting. 21:34:33 but day 3 after the apocalypse, nobody's gonna be running that store. 21:34:37 Depends entirely on the kind of apocalypse. 21:34:43 come on. revolutions cause major looting. 21:34:46 the apocalypse... 21:34:49 If it's nuclear, say, nothing's going to happen. 21:34:57 elliott: Heck, just a sufficiently bad natural disaster does it. 21:35:03 explain to me exactly how someone with a warehouse full of guns and enough people to defend it couldn't profit immensely by continuing to operate after economic collapse? 21:35:04 Hmm. $67 per gram of osmium. 21:35:12 dear god 21:35:13 quintopia: "Enough people to defend it". 21:35:13 GUNS GUNS GUNS 21:35:22 if everyone had guns everyone would live in liberty and peace and equality 21:35:29 Vs. a market price of $400 per troy ounce which comes to... 21:35:31 You're assuming the store owner has a small army. 21:35:33 the core of every libertarian nutjob fantasy 21:35:35 > 400/23 21:35:35 17.391304347826086 21:35:47 pikhq: yes. and when you have a warehouse filled with guns and most people have knives, that's probably not very many. 21:35:47 Er, wait. 21:35:52 And will continue to do so when the average person has *no currency*. 21:35:59 GUNS 21:36:02 WAREHOUSES FILLED WITH GUNS 21:36:03 AMMO 21:36:05 SO MANY PRIVATE ARMIES 21:36:08 SO MANY WAREHOUSES 21:36:09 GUNS 21:36:11 > 400/31 21:36:12 12.903225806451612 21:36:19 That's even *less* reasonable. 21:36:20 does this apocalypse involve the destruction of mathematics? 21:36:20 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:36:21 quintopia: Oh, please, people will loot Walmart first. 21:36:24 oklopol: YES. 21:36:27 oh dear. 21:36:28 all graphs will be destroyed. 21:36:32 :( 21:36:36 What the hell is this market it's $400/ozt? 21:36:36 even the infinite ones?! 21:36:38 oklopol: it's ok 21:36:41 oklopol: you get to make them up all over again 21:36:42 *on? 21:36:49 :) 21:36:51 i like that idea! 21:36:52 Phantom_Hoover: on? 21:36:54 do you mean oz 21:36:54 pikhq: sure. that'll get five people 20 rifles a piece. there will still be demand. 21:36:57 brought a little tear in my eye 21:37:01 GUNS GUNS GUNS 21:37:02 GUUUUNS 21:37:03 GUNS 21:37:08 quintopia: And no currency. 21:37:10 oklopol: cause the apocalypse and it will all be yours 21:37:11 elliott, no, I mean which market does it cost that on? 21:37:12 pikhq: GUNS 21:37:18 Phantom_Hoover: THE EXPENSIVE SHIT MARKET 21:37:22 pikhq: exaaaaaaaaaaaaaactly. 21:37:28 elliott, no, that's the thing! 21:37:33 That's *cheap*! 21:37:36 Oh ;P 21:37:37 *:P 21:37:46 shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 21:37:46 The Frugal Buyers of Expensive Shit Market. 21:37:48 quintopia: And the owner of all these guns isn't going to care about your shiny rocks. 21:37:49 pikhq: Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuns. 21:37:52 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:37:53 pikhq: Guns guns guns guns guns guns guns. 21:37:55 Guns. 21:37:58 oklopol: :D 21:37:59 quintopia: Food, sure. But shiny rocks? 21:38:04 `addquote shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 21:38:04 What's that good for, slingshot ammo? 21:38:05 (to add later) 21:38:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:38:30 I am seriously confused here. 21:38:37 Guns. 21:38:41 pikhq: maybe. maybe not. at the very least, it will be worth recognizably more than slips of cotton. 21:38:42 I mean, is that figure just plucked from the air? 21:38:44 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:38:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:38:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:39:01 quintopia: Okay, true, it will possess more worth than fiat currency. 21:39:01 Remember that the apocalypse is May 21, so you've got to work fast here too. 21:39:09 "I was not Lucidending... OR WAS I? (No, seriously, I wasn't.) http://gaw.kr/fchwHH" --Adrian Shit 21:39:12 Though I doubt worth *much* more. 21:39:17 oerjan: how about a graph that's complete in EVERY topology? 21:39:17 "Why the Internet Thinks I Faked Having Cancer on a Message Board" 21:39:23 This article is going to be so, so classy. 21:39:28 So classy I can't help but read it. 21:39:31 Still, the fiat currency would, in this hypothetical, be devoid of any use except burning and novelty. 21:39:35 Twiddle: May 21? 21:39:39 *21st? 21:39:56 oerjan: i'll leave you with this thought, have to go now tho 21:39:56 "But for the rest, here is the story of how a dumb late-night joke tweet led one of the Internet's largest message boards to believe I am a horrible person." You are, but ha ha, I was rigt, Phantom_Hoover was wrong, I'm so tired, fuidjklvck 21:39:57 Or, in the case of metal coins, smelting. 21:39:59 Fuck yeah. 21:40:07 SMELT EVERYTHING IN A FURNACE WITH COAL 21:40:10 SMELT LOGS INTO MORE COAL 21:40:31 pikhq: name something else that is small, useful post-apocalypse, highly valuable, and does not lose value over time. 21:40:41 -!- jix has joined. 21:40:47 "Also, what terminally ill person would spend even one of his last hours answering questions on a message board? (And why Reddit, when 4chan would have come up way more interesting questions?)" 21:40:51 Yes. 4chan ask interesting questions. 21:40:53 i spy a jix 21:41:00 This is a factual thing that is known to be a true factual fact which is true. 21:41:24 shit has no value and thus doesn't lose any, is useful for getting rid off and can be small. it's not highly valuable though. 21:41:37 "There are plenty of reasons for this differential, but chief among them is Reddit's female problem. The board, with its ridiculous "Men's Rights" forum, often displays what one twitter user calls "loony anti-woman rage." Lucidending was a dude." 21:41:38 but you can't have all the answers 21:41:39 Oh dear god. 21:41:46 BECAUSE ANYBODY CAN CREATE A SUBREDDIT, REDDIT IS THE SEXIST 21:41:48 quintopia: Name to me anything that is small, *useful post-apocalypse*, highly valuable, and does not lose value over time. 21:42:08 pikhq: yes. i added that because you insisted that any valuable trade good be useful 21:42:17 therefore you must say what such thing exists 21:42:51 you can throw shit at your enemy? 21:42:56 pikhq, you know about how crazy people are; what on earth is that $400/ozt figure coming from? 21:43:03 that's show 'em 21:43:06 *ll 21:43:08 quintopia: Sorry, but most commodities tend to lose value over time. But *oh well*, because commodities can be obtained later when shit stables out. 21:43:48 quintopia: And the simple fact is, if all hell breaks loose, mere hypothetical value is the furthest thing from people's minds. 21:44:01 Direct, immediate use is all that's relevant. 21:44:05 yeah people will start checking all the graphs are intact 21:44:07 then you can't name anything better for a long-lasting stockpile than gold? (long-lasting meaning i won't immediately start consuming it) 21:44:18 they won't have time for silly things like that 21:44:20 quintopia, OSMIUM 21:44:33 Heck, you'd probably have better luck storing some water. 21:44:33 pikhq: all hell doesn't last very long. people start asserting control a lot quicker than you would expect 21:44:43 *Especially* if you're in, say, Arizona. 21:45:11 yeah once you've checked a few small graphs, you can get the rest by induction 21:45:14 pikhq: i would start consuming water immediately. because, you know, it goes bad and stuff. 21:45:17 and then you can try to put out the fires 21:45:20 -!- Leonidas has joined. 21:45:25 and then onto groups prolly 21:45:33 Leonidas, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON OSMIUM 21:46:03 those free ones are so damn fickle 21:46:20 Hang on, that thing has iridium pegged at a lower price than rhodium. 21:46:29 That's complete fantasy. 21:46:58 I mean, rhodium production is over 8 times that of iridium. 21:47:05 are rodeos built out of rhodium 21:47:14 Yes. Yes they are. 21:47:16 So is Rhodew. 21:47:19 *Rhodes 21:47:26 this all makes sense. 21:47:30 maybe i can learn more tomorrow -> 21:48:09 Funny, I'm consuming water that's been around for billions of years. 21:48:30 oklopol: what do complete graphs have to do with topologies 21:49:44 darn just too late 21:50:12 tiuhduiwhuiuihhudhuidhnffhdhrhfhghfhjdndjkj 21:50:17 inveny lNGUAG wher is word 21:50:24 pikhq: you're drinking water that's recently been purified. 21:50:52 <- never too late for topology! 21:50:57 yay 21:50:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:51:01 water filters might be a good commodity to have. afaik, they don't go bad until you start using them. 21:51:15 Phantom_Hoover: NEVER PLAYED IT, JUST GOD OF WAAAAAAARRRRR! 21:51:25 $261 for 5g of osmium on eBay. 21:51:29 oklopol: the usual meaning of complete graph does not involve any afaik 21:51:31 Leonidas: what 21:51:33 That's a fifth of a millilitre. 21:52:01 oerjan: who know's though? 21:52:02 osmium? i thought there was some indie-game by that name. 21:52:04 klsdf 21:52:06 knows 21:52:09 what's wrong with me 21:52:11 :D 21:52:14 Leonidas, nah, it's a metal. 21:52:21 INDIE GAMES? O U MEAN LIEK MINDKRAFT 21:52:30 and braid 21:52:33 and world of goo 21:52:37 no 21:52:39 mindkratf. 21:52:42 Hmm, looking it up there's a $99/1.43g thing. 21:52:42 * oerjan swats some sense into oklopol -----### 21:52:43 the only indaie gaiom 21:52:55 MINDKRAFT Y U HAVE NO FANCY GRAPHICS? 21:52:59 myenekflcrafkt 21:53:11 i think i have to go now, no matter HOW topology. 21:53:12 Leonidas: TOTES PREEMPTIVELY BANNED FROM #ESOTERIC-MINECRAFT 21:53:16 BAN BAN BAN 21:53:33 oh noes! 21:53:37 ban ban ban 21:54:44 can I like, adopt 10 kittens and dress them in hipster clothes and make nice youtube videos to wash away my sins? 21:55:20 Leonidas: you can do everything up to the word "make" 21:55:28 then it starts getting tricky 21:55:49 oh gosh %) 21:56:12 Leonidas: you'd need to craft a youtube video first 21:56:15 because the latter part is obviously incompatible with the former 21:56:42 Hmm, 10g for £215. 21:56:46 to craft a youtube video, I'll first have to craft the universe 21:56:50 and then create youtube in it 21:56:53 YES 21:56:57 Minecraft needs apple pie. 21:57:03 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the volume of a ring is. 21:57:05 You have to craft a universe, enter it, and then make apple pie. 21:57:25 Phantom_Hoover: it's an abstract algebraic object. it has no volume, duh, you can't say how loud it is! 21:57:31 * elliott enters the Mandatory Swatting Booth 21:57:45 * oerjan performs the Mandatory Swatting -----### 21:57:55 * elliott cries a little, walks out 21:58:58 * Phantom_Hoover assumes a height of 1mm. 21:59:19 oerjan: SWAT HIM 21:59:22 > (pi*0.1**3)/6 21:59:23 5.235987755982989e-4 21:59:49 oerjan: HE'S THE PERFECT SIZE 21:59:57 so oerjan, what timezone are you in now, when are you going to sleep :D 22:00:07 need to get a hold on ØST 22:00:23 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:00:29 -!- jix has joined. 22:00:48 -!- elliott has changed nick to optbot. 22:01:04 -!- optbot has changed nick to elliott. 22:01:21 oerjan: it's important for meterological purposes 22:01:29 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus#Geometry 22:01:35 oerjan: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS FIRST 22:02:33 elliott: i'm in UTC+1 22:02:36 >2*pi**2*10*0.5**2 22:02:45 > 2*pi**2*10*0.5**2 22:02:46 49.34802200544679 22:02:51 oerjan: no i mean your 25-hour day timezone 22:03:01 when are you going to sleep/when did you get up, so i can calculate the true UTC offset >:D 22:03:08 50mm^3, then. 22:03:48 0.05cm^3. 22:03:55 What? It must be more than that... 22:04:06 elliott: in about [REDACTED] hours 22:04:29 > 0.05 * 23 22:04:30 1.1500000000000001 22:04:31 oerjan: WHAT IS SO SECRET ABOUT THAT. I _will_ use IRC logs if necessary 22:04:51 incidentally øst is norwegian for east 22:05:13 Cool, that actually means you could get enough for a ring for a reasonable price. 22:05:40 oerjan: do you just want to make it a "challenge" 22:05:41 Phantom_Hoover: :D 22:06:14 A very reasonable price, actually; £30 or so. 22:06:51 Phantom_Hoover: Seriously? Sweet. 22:06:56 which is that, iridum or osmium 22:06:59 *Which 22:07:02 Osmium. 22:07:04 The cooler one. 22:07:13 Man, I'm not even hallucinating. 22:07:15 Although I'm still unclear as to its toxicity. 22:07:17 Sleep-deprivation like this, I want to hallucinate. 22:07:23 Phantom_Hoover: >_> HOW ABOUT THAT IRIDIUM EY 22:07:35 And that's in pellet form; actually making it ring-shaped would be much harder. 22:07:46 wait 22:07:48 it's only been 30-31 hours 22:07:49 lame :/ 22:07:57 i just wanna see pink giraffes and stuff :( 22:08:49 Melting it is not a easy task, given that it actually melts at a lower temperature than iron boils. 22:09:00 Phantom_Hoover: tips for inducing hallucinations after 30-31 hours of no sleep plz 22:09:07 And it reacts with oxygen quite readily, complicating things even more. 22:09:11 elliott, Red Bull? 22:09:18 hmm 22:09:23 that might work. don't think there's any lying around though. 22:09:45 LSD? 22:09:49 My parents have a friend who knows about metalworking; perhaps I should ask her. 22:10:24 Phantom_Hoover: that's the boring way 22:10:29 learn all there is to know about metalworking for yourself instea 22:10:29 d 22:10:31 *insetad 22:10:32 *instead 22:10:38 elliott, wouldn't be much help. 22:11:01 Phantom_Hoover: why not 22:11:13 7x10x4 for my new and improvéd minecart station. 22:11:16 Yay me! 22:11:24 Osmium is probably not amenable to standard techniques. 22:11:31 pikhq: wrong chan lol 22:11:36 Phantom_Hoover: sweet 22:11:41 what about iridium though 22:11:43 just out of curiosity 22:11:44 It's really hard, has a really high melting point and reacts readily. 22:11:46 kyooriosity 22:11:48 qoorisoty 22:11:52 *qooriosity 22:11:53 elliott, well, the mass would be almost the same. 22:12:13 but less toxic? :P 22:12:22 hmm, how heavy would a ring of osmimsimsimsimum be? 22:12:26 (This is assuming my finger radius though, which is almost certainly greater than yours.) 22:12:57 OH GEE THANKS 22:12:59 elliott, 1.15g for a torus 2cm in diameter and 1mm in tube diameter. 22:13:08 I REPEAT 22:13:09 OH GEE THANKS 22:13:23 Well, find out how wide your finger is and work it out. 22:13:50 -!- EgoBot has joined. 22:13:56 rolling my eeeeyes arouuuuund 22:14:03 somehow i think that more than lack of seelp is required to hallucainte 22:14:08 Phantom_Hoover: way too tired. 22:14:15 elliott, how wide is your finger? 22:14:21 Phantom_Hoover: wide i guess 22:14:27 well 22:14:27 no 22:14:28 not wide at all 22:14:32 but compared to like 22:14:32 atoms 22:14:42 1cm? 22:14:54 I DUNNO 22:14:55 like 22:14:56 1 mm 22:15:11 ASSUMING 1cm BECAUSE IT SCALES EASILY 22:15:20 * Twiddle hmms 22:15:23 Why didn't HackEgo reconnect? 22:15:34 In that case you just need 22:15:39 > 1.15 / 4 22:15:40 0.2875 22:15:44 Twiddle: because it doesn't love you any more 22:16:10 elliott: That's OK, I only used it for sex. 22:16:22 RIP HackEgo 22:17:25 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:17:35 -!- EgoBot has joined. 22:18:10 -!- HackEgo has joined. 22:18:37 Odd 22:19:03 `addquote enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 22:19:11 `addquote shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 22:19:15 uh oh 22:19:16 colour code 22:19:17 s 22:19:20 oh wait 22:19:22 stripped :P 22:21:18 "matrix of solidity" 22:21:19 Love it 22:21:34 No output. 22:21:34 No output. 22:21:38 ... 22:21:42 * Twiddle >_> <_< 22:21:43 Twiddle: you have broke. 22:21:48 `run echo hi 22:21:48 `run ls -lh quotes 22:21:56 hi 22:22:02 -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 34K Mar 10 23:04 quotes 22:22:28 `addquote enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 22:22:29 330) enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 22:22:32 `addquote shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 22:22:34 331) shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 22:22:34 ... odd 22:22:41 Twiddle: really i want to quote the entire treederwright exchange, but :) 22:22:42 It's a bit moody :P 22:22:49 matrix of solidity is good enough. 22:23:57 elliott, hmm, looks like osmium tetroxide production is sufficient even in the solid that a ring would be inadvisable. 22:24:06 Phantom_Hoover: IRIDIUM 22:24:08 `run grep '' quotes 22:24:10 shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 22:24:10 IA,s 22:24:11 * 22:24:13 (Also :( ) 22:24:15 elliott, you lose the awesome colour! 22:24:17 oerjan: whoa. 22:24:20 oerjan: how does that even 22:24:25 Phantom_Hoover: TRY IT FOR SCIENCE 22:24:42 `run sed -i 's///g' quotes 22:24:43 No output. 22:24:47 `run grep '' quotes 22:24:48 shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 22:24:54 bah :D 22:25:10 oerjan: what you tryin'a accomplish :D 22:25:27 impressive that it replaced ALL the empty strings in the quotes file with empty strings in finite time 22:25:29 elliott: removing the color codes? 22:25:36 oerjan: there aren't any 22:25:37 this channel is +c 22:25:39 elliott, iridium would be doable, but probably more expensibe. 22:25:43 no? 22:25:57 elliott: i am seeing lots of inverted H's 22:26:11 `delquote 331 22:26:12 *poof* 22:26:14 $143/4.4g. 22:26:18 `addquote shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 22:26:21 331) shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich 22:26:23 oerjan: good? 22:26:24 Phantom_Hoover: awesome 22:26:28 `run grep '' quotes 22:26:30 No output. 22:26:36 elliott: seems so 22:27:42 I'm still disappointed that osmium is too reactive to use. 22:28:00 what if and a los and kot 22:28:00 obviously it's great for osmosis 22:28:08 * elliott swatioserjan 22:28:11 --------#33333 22:28:12 456y 22:28:17 osmoerjan. 22:28:21 :D 22:28:24 osmørjan 22:28:43 so oerjan, how many hours of your day do you NOT spend on IRC, I ASK PURELY OUT OF _CURIOSITY_ 22:28:45 not out of science 22:29:01 elliott, iridium is off-white, though, rather than blue-grey. 22:29:23 Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Iridium2.jpg 22:29:25 Phantom_Hoover: Try off-sexy. 22:29:35 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Iridium-2.jpg ;; less so, but still pretty neat. 22:29:42 Well, OK. 22:30:02 But not really noticeable in ring form. 22:30:13 Who cares, I want one. 22:30:24 THEN OERJAN WON'T BE ABLE TO TURN DOWN MY PROPOSAL 22:31:25 Hey, there're black gold alloys. 22:31:34 Bah, they're cheating. 22:31:41 It's just an oxide layer. 22:32:33 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Iridium2.jpg ;; this in ring form i would totally love, but i fear that under different lighting it would look less impressive. 22:32:36 still, it'll always be shiny 22:32:39 WAIT! 22:32:43 and also 22:32:44 hey you 22:32:44 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Ruthenium_a_half_bar.jpg 22:32:46 guess what my ring's made out of 22:32:47 -what? 22:32:49 iridium 22:32:50 -bullshit 22:32:51 nope 22:33:09 Phantom_Hoover: RUTHENIUM/IRIDIUM HYBRID 22:33:10 Not as expensive so you lose the bragging rights, though. 22:33:14 elliott, HMM 22:33:27 MIGHTN'T WORK AS WELL AS YOU'D THINK 22:33:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ununoctium i want a ring made out of this 22:33:53 ooh ooh wait, can i have a hydrogen ring 22:34:02 No. Stop being silly. 22:34:05 but 22:34:06 THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS 22:34:09 i want it 22:34:20 RINGS MADE OUT OF PLATINUM GROUP METALS ARE THE ONLY ONES 22:34:54 Also, ruthenium would require half the mass. 22:34:58 Bismuth is the only metal. 22:35:21 Bismuth crystals are cool but that wouldn't carry over to a ring, I suspect. 22:35:28 IT DOESN'T MATTER. 22:35:35 (Long story.) 22:35:59 Phantom_Hoover: now now, a sodium ring would also be hot stuff 22:36:01 Safe to say that I with others have retrieved a copy of the International Journal of Bismuth from a public library. 22:36:20 (After being misheard for the far-more-reasonable-subject-for-a-journal "business".) 22:37:09 1g of ruthenium is a bit more expensive, but it's also a larger volume than osmium. 22:37:30 Over twice as much, in fact. 22:37:47 Anyway, as entertaining as silly rings are, I really ought to sleep. 22:37:59 +3 Ring of Silliness 22:39:12 Phantom_Hoover: NOOO 22:39:14 SLEEP IS OVERRATED 22:40:06 -!- optbot has joined. 22:40:06 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | test. 22:40:08 hello optbot test 22:40:08 elliott: test 22:40:13 good 22:40:17 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:26 -!- optbot has joined. 22:40:26 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | hello: test. 22:40:27 hello optbot test 22:40:27 elliott: hello: test 22:40:30 argh 22:40:32 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:37 return re.sub(r'^[a-zA-Z[\]\\`_^{|}][a-zA-Z0-9[\]\\`_^{|}]+:\s+', '', line) 22:40:40 CLEARLY MY REGEXP IS INSUFFICIENT 22:40:45 oerjan: dance that optbot is coming back 22:41:12 that looks like the kind of regexp that gives you two problems 22:41:24 it's just the valid chars in an irc name :) 22:41:27 Aaaah, regexp. 22:41:31 A sub-Turing tarpit. 22:41:49 * pikhq wonders if there's any better syntax for expressing regular expressions... 22:42:02 oh, duh 22:42:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:42:20 pikhq: heck, there might even be a _worse_ one 22:42:30 *vomit* 22:42:52 * pikhq wonders if there's any better syntax for expressing regular expressions... 22:42:53 perl 6's 22:42:57 racket's 22:43:21 oerjan: i need your operopinion 22:43:28 the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | random line 22:43:32 oerjan: that was old optbot's format 22:43:49 how do you suggest I modify it, keeping in line with the fact that we now have two log links, and use /?C=M;O=D, and the fact that my logs aren't really the ENTIRE backlog, 22:43:54 and the fact that that prefix will be really long? 22:44:14 maybe putting the logs second? but it feels weird to have optbot's zaniness at the start :) 22:45:32 oerjan: this is a serious matter. respond. 22:45:34 they were never entire anyway 22:45:45 oerjan: well, no, but close enough. 22:45:46 still, 22:46:03 the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ 22:46:06 is ridiculously long 22:46:25 113 chars 22:46:44 oerjan: how about you put my log link in the chanserv welcome message so i can avoid that ;D 22:47:30 i don't think the chanserv welcome message is very noticable. 22:47:43 good point. put tunes there instead ;D 22:48:00 no. 22:48:35 what's wrong with "Logs: " given it has to be short 22:49:04 oerjan: I tried "logs: " but it's still quite long 22:49:10 conn.write('TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | %s\r\n' % (random_line(),)) 22:49:33 oerjan: hm wait what if I used a url shortener... ais wouldn't click the links, but everyone else would 22:49:38 (for just tunes, I mean) 22:49:45 well i'm not used to the whole topic showing in irssi top line anyway 22:50:00 * elliott makes a goo.gl one, because that's a name you can trust! 22:50:48 template = 'logs: http://goo.gl/54yE4 and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | %s' 22:50:57 oerjan: do you find this acceptable? btw, i wouldn't care about the length, 22:51:00 it's just that topics can get cut off 22:51:07 for being too long 22:51:34 TOPICLEN = 390 22:52:20 hmm 22:52:25 i guess 301 chars is enough :) 22:52:35 oerjan: just seems like it hides the optbot wisdom, yaknow 22:52:39 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 22:55:44 * elliott updates logs from hg, runs gen.py, uploads 90 meg file to server 22:55:48 (the lines file) 22:56:15 well, 83 meg. 22:58:25 It is said that he who holds the file of the lines holds the true secret to the Earth. 23:00:02 lines 18% 15MB 51.8KB/s 22:10 ETA 23:00:04 it should not be so slow... 23:00:12 oerjan: i'm transferring ALL THE KNOWLEDGE. 23:01:17 OMG 23:03:32 oerjan: it's going to be so relaxing not having to come up with witty topics all the time 23:03:41 oerjan: we'll have that lovely predictable 6-hour clockwork schedule of topic changes 23:03:48 with optbot! if we ever don't like the current one 23:03:55 those were the blissful days. 23:04:52 to pic, or not to pic 23:06:45 lines 46% 39MB 44.7KB/s 16:41 ETA 23:06:54 oerjan: can you feel all the knowledge streaming across the tubes. 23:06:56 beautiful. 23:07:29 CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE TONIGHT 23:07:59 oerjan: now imagine THIS: when you were thirteen years old, transferring merely the sum total of our blabber that I am currently quickly zipping off to a remote server would be an expensive, unrealistic, and painfully slow endeavour, with a sneakernet solution being hundreds of times faster 23:08:06 what I'm saying is: 23:08:12 (1) WOW, INTERNET, and 23:08:13 (2) YOU'RE OLD. 23:09:14 YKGOML 23:13:15 oerjan: wut 23:13:34 JFGI 23:13:36 oh 23:13:43 i did, got nothing useful, but grokked it manually 23:14:37 hm it was a way down on the google page 23:14:57 especially as google insisted on suggesting "YNGEL" 23:15:27 which incidentally is precisely the kind of word a grumpy old norwegian might use to describe kids trespassing 23:15:29 FUCK 23:15:32 no sleep ow 23:15:35 threshold for pain 23:15:37 lowers 23:15:37 immsensely 23:15:38 fuck 23:16:06 * oerjan compassionitates 23:16:28 -!- Twiddle has changed nick to Gregor. 23:16:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:16:42 I wrote a chess program in TeX. 23:17:46 how unexpected 23:18:59 Now we can write a book about chess, by using TeX. 23:19:01 especially since he already mentioned starting it 23:19:21 hm in future i should use rsync to update this lines file. 23:19:42 I still didn't finished, but I finished the part to parse move notations. Now it will parse all algebraic move notations correctly. 23:20:12 And also Forsyth-Edwards Notation. 23:20:20 (Do you know Forsyth-Edwards Notation?) 23:21:21 $ 1949320 23:21:21 try x264 with quantisation set to 0 23:21:22 what. 23:21:37 elliott: What is that? 23:21:42 it just appeared :D 23:21:56 ? 23:22:01 in my shell 23:22:10 oh, duh 23:22:13 that's my debug :D 23:22:47 -!- optbot has joined. 23:22:48 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | yes, that must be done. 23:22:56 hi optbot 23:22:56 elliott: ais523, what'd he do? 23:23:06 optbot: ais did nothing 23:23:07 elliott: Are you sure you aren't just living in a nice area? 23:23:12 optbot: I'm sure. ais would be nice anywhere. 23:23:13 elliott: Try timecube :P 23:23:19 optbot: That sounds ungood for my sanity. 23:23:19 elliott: like the first one 23:23:22 optbot: What. 23:23:22 elliott: I _think_ that Daeva has an attack that actually scratches test spawner, and ANtaeus doesn't 23:23:29 optbot: That's possible. 23:23:29 elliott: wth is up with http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png 23:23:40 elliott: not to mention ais523's sanity. optbot is really testing you here. 23:23:40 oerjan: That would be a really useless program. 23:23:44 thought oerjan pinged me there, i was very confused. 23:23:51 -!- rusopro has joined. 23:23:58 elliott: um i did... 23:24:11 no but 23:24:13 elliott: wth is up with http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png 23:24:13 elliott: that way it's as shitty as IE 23:24:16 thought that was you. 23:24:19 optbot: what's as shitty as IE? 23:24:20 elliott: ;( 23:24:23 -!- rusopro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:24:25 optbot: don't be so opaque! 23:24:26 elliott: X_X 23:24:28 optbot: STOP THAT 23:24:28 elliott: anyway, this time it seeds exactly twice at the start of the program 23:24:40 optbot: you just use Python's standard seeding mechanisms 23:24:40 elliott: (Proof: Imagine a regexp that executes, say, a single step of brainfuck except instead of [] you have | which pushes the code after it to a stack, ; which stops executing, : which pops off stack and executes, and ? which runs the next instruction iff !=0) 23:24:51 optbot: That's... not a proof of that at all. 23:24:51 elliott: meh. but that one runs on Parrot. fuck that. 23:24:57 optbot: HEAR HEAR 23:24:57 elliott: hah 23:25:00 optbot: ... 23:25:01 elliott: Are you referring to the shape, or the placement? 23:25:05 optbot: The shlacement. 23:25:05 elliott: i have my doubts 23:25:09 optbot: I know what I talk about. 23:25:09 elliott: are the lengths known? 23:25:15 optbot: They're TOO LONG TO KNOW. 23:25:16 elliott: ? 23:25:21 optbot: Timecube. 23:25:21 elliott: i've done more that 20 bf-interpreters 23:25:29 optbot: Over 9000 BF interpreters. 23:25:30 elliott: i dont actually want anything from think geek, but even so 23:25:35 optbot: Even so! 23:25:35 elliott: well then let's use that. :) 23:25:39 optbot: Let's. 23:25:39 elliott: Deewiant, ok but fix the core bugs first! 23:25:44 What should be the space factors for chess notations? 23:25:47 optbot: I'm not Deewiant! 23:25:47 elliott: } 23:25:52 optbot: oerjan is Deewiant; bug him. 23:25:52 elliott: the NNSSSNSNSNSSN line is the cube's code? 23:25:56 optbot: what 23:25:56 elliott: but my numpad usage is a bad habit 23:25:59 optbot: ok 23:25:59 elliott: What? 23:26:01 optbot: What? 23:26:02 elliott: what was it, btw? 23:26:03 optbot: dunno 23:26:04 elliott: i just remember it 23:26:07 optbot: huh 23:26:07 elliott: Days, bah. I offer 3 days max wait ;) 23:26:10 oerjan: your turn 23:26:12 And what size should chess icons on the board? 23:27:08 elliott: your obvious attempt to get me banned for spamming is doomed 23:27:32 oerjan: um optbot conversations are exempt from all spamming rules 23:27:32 elliott: true 23:27:36 see? 23:27:47 ^echo optbot 23:27:47 optbot optbot 23:27:48 elliott: or was it just... totally random byte values? 23:27:48 fungot: no need. finding out the answer is a project i will have forgotten in a few days 23:27:51 damn :) 23:27:57 fungot NEVER FORGETS 23:27:57 elliott: heh, thanks, also, i think it tries whether h reflects or something 23:28:00 !echo optbot 23:28:00 elliott: DID YOU KNOW: bbc's online radio player is hell to get working on linux 23:28:03 ^ignore 23:28:08 oerjan: only fizzie can use that 23:28:08 !sh echo optbot 23:28:08 elliott: i love pickled vaginas 23:28:11 ... 23:28:19 elliott: i hoped it would at least list it... 23:28:20 problem is you can't addquote anything optbot says because it just repeats :D 23:28:20 elliott: But I can't change it without changing the font size for ALL documents, including IRC, because it's the DEFAULT SIZE. 23:28:33 !underload (optbot)S 23:28:33 elliott: that makes sense when you're dealing with scalar values... but not values that are the combinations of scalars. 23:28:44 `echo optbot 23:28:44 elliott: vjn.fi, just follow the games link 23:28:56 i have a bad feeling about those two bots waking up. 23:29:01 i didn't really bother to rate-limit it. 23:29:27 elliott: You can do so by private message, then. 23:29:49 (To send add quote) 23:30:01 zzo38: I mean, everything optbot says is just a repeat 23:30:01 elliott: |> 23:30:05 so quoting it would be starnge 23:30:35 oerjan: i'm torn between trying out optbot! and the fact that I like this topic 23:30:36 elliott: I've yet to shave :D 23:30:39 ... 23:30:40 ok 23:30:49 elliott: Then figure out how often it repeat...... 23:31:00 optbot 23:31:01 HackEgo: there's a shortcut for that 23:31:04 oh dear 23:31:09 ok, HackEgo is undumb 23:31:10 but is EgoBot? 23:31:12 Gregor: Gregor Gregor 23:31:14 POSSIBLE DANGER 23:31:43 oerjan: what do YOU think 23:32:10 Gregor: write me a js implementation in checkout. i need to have full-featured 3D javascript games. 23:32:19 quintopia: ask optbot to do that. 23:32:19 elliott: it gives you a bit more appreciation for what Windows actually gets right 23:32:21 god 23:32:23 quintopia, PH 23:32:25 all you kids come after optbot 23:32:26 elliott: that's how it is 23:32:33 it was the most bitching thing ever and now it's back, hi5 optbot 23:32:33 elliott: I thought they would drop the + operator, since it's not in most pi calculus conventions 23:32:42 * elliott hugs optbot 23:32:43 elliott: I have no idea what "Programming languages are usually designed to prevent unintended ELIZA effects by restricting keywords and carefully avoiding potential misinterpretations" means 23:32:45 SO GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK 23:33:01 elliott: i do not think either of the bots reacts without the correct prefix 23:33:13 er right 23:33:17 so optbot can't actually loop non-babblers 23:33:18 elliott: maybe #5 should be Hesse's "Glass Bead Game" 23:33:21 and the only babbler, fungot, blocks it 23:33:21 elliott: there go my minutes of research!! 23:33:21 good good 23:33:30 `addquote elliott: there go my minutes of research!! 23:33:32 332) elliott: there go my minutes of research!! 23:34:05 optbot: So what do you think of fungot? 23:34:05 elliott: The english translation is complicated 23:34:14 optbot fungot 23:34:14 zzo38: it's like INTERCAL, only the bits you actually try to run have to make sense 23:34:14 zzo38: tail recursion goes without saying though. the original paper on twobit, too. 23:34:16 optbot: True, its... translation... is a bit "complicated". 23:34:17 elliott: and key features 23:34:21 optbot: What are fungot's key features? 23:34:21 elliott: this is why I like atimes 23:34:21 elliott: something a bit " messy" ( eg. keep precision when adding, subtracting or multiplying) wasnt executed at all. 23:34:24 optbot: What 23:34:24 elliott: Hm. 23:34:26 optbot: Hm. 23:34:26 elliott: ehird, YES! 23:34:29 optbot: NO! 23:34:29 elliott: norway, sweden or denmark would be nice. 23:34:31 optbot fungot 23:34:37 optbot: Secret oerjan sympathiser! 23:34:37 elliott: oklocod, it is the fruit of a type of tree 23:34:47 optbot: So *that's* what the famous oklocod is! 23:34:47 elliott: ISO-standard Lisp X-D 23:34:50 zzo38: I don't know why it ignored you. 23:34:51 oh. 23:34:52 optbot 23:34:53 elliott: or was it a modified fastcall? 23:34:54 optbot x 23:34:55 elliott: on a new string 23:34:58 nope, should work 23:35:06 i am so sympathetic 23:35:15 elliott: I know why it ignored me. I put a CTRL+O in the middle of the words. 23:35:22 ah 23:35:35 optbot: How what the of it's only? 23:35:35 elliott: i'll implement arithmetic while yo udo 23:35:46 optbot: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? 23:35:46 elliott: and isn't ifdeffed out either 23:36:00 -!- cheater- has joined. 23:36:22 oerjan: and thus oerjan's punnes terribáles bot was reborn. 23:36:31 (What, it was OerjansTerriblePuns -> otpbot -> optbot.) 23:36:31 elliott: besides you can do it even in C89, using nested parens 23:36:47 optbotfungot 23:36:47 zzo38: or if you are 23:37:21 as long as it isn't cannibáles 23:37:27 Or if I am what? 23:38:54 oerjan: talk to optbot. he's really friendly. 23:38:55 elliott: also the subtitle pun 23:39:21 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:39:46 oerjan: :( you are making him sad. 23:40:03 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:40:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:40:46 optbot: are you sad? 23:40:47 oerjan: because most roguelike games on public servers are streamed over telnet 23:40:58 optbot: how awful! 23:40:58 oerjan: first_input=input[1]; do mid[first_input,5,8] to [sub:ret]; Length(sub); i guess 23:41:14 optbot: yeah that would do it. 23:41:14 oerjan: but seriously, just use sprite fonts 23:41:24 optbot: NO. NO SPRITES: 23:41:24 oerjan: ignoring the fact that i changed my name to RatherUnnecessar to try and test it 23:41:25 *. 23:41:45 optbot: well what that necess... oh. 23:41:45 oerjan: when I was your age... 23:41:48 *was 23:41:58 optbot -- older than oerjan. 23:41:58 elliott: I'm not sure what your concern is 23:42:00 optbot: YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN MY AGE 23:42:00 oerjan: .pid file seems the easiest. 23:42:07 oerjan: optbot never lies. 23:42:07 elliott: when I used it (I was young and innocent, I didn't know better!) 23:42:14 Just finished easily my most complicated soda syrup batch yet. 23:42:44 Gregor: _and_ it didn't bring about the end of civilization! 23:43:00 I actually have gum arabic now. 23:43:22 Gregor: i'm sure that is a restricted substance, just by the name 23:43:33 The Arab's Gum. 23:43:57 Gum arabic is a somewhat outdated name for what is also called gum acacia. 23:44:04 And it's usually made in the Indian subcontinent :P 23:44:28 those filthy arabs, stealing gum and numbers 23:45:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:45:35 Gregor: what do you think of OPTBOT 23:45:37 optbot. 23:45:37 elliott: ah yeah 23:46:05 i don't like the arab numbers. i like the modern english number much better 23:46:39 optbot gazes disapprovingly, quintopia. 23:46:39 elliott: See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on 23:46:53 Even modern English are based on the Hindu-Arabic digits, I think. 23:47:01 $ grep 'See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on' * 23:47:02 10.11.27:13:03:39 elliott: See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on 23:47:31 zzo38: modern american is based on british english too, but that doesn't mean that american isn't so much betterer! 23:47:34 elliott: Out of context it does not mean much. 23:47:52 quintopia: I didn't say anything was better or not. 23:48:12 (Also, different people have different opinion what is much better English language) 23:48:41 i think zzo38 is the best dialect 23:50:48 yes. 23:51:56 quintopia: *betterest 23:54:25 what is the real tangible advantage of quattuorsexagesimal computer systems? it seems like they are not strictly faster than duotrigesimal systems on average... 23:59:41 What is a good point size and square size for pieces on a chess board?