< 1299888013 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1299888551 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1299888600 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s x y z c = x z (\xz. xz y z c); k x y c = c x < 1299888618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skk = \x c. s k (\sk. sk k x c) < 1299888628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skkFOO = \c. s k (\sk. sk k x FOO) < 1299888645 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er. < 1299888645 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skkFOO(id) = s k (\sk. sk k FOO id) < 1299888653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at this point i get too lazy < 1299888663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, realise that each partial application needs a c. < 1299888665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. < 1299888746 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:33:02 Did Jesus have a sacred hammer? < 1299888747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34:02 Well, he was a carpenter, and a lot of people would probably consider just about anything he ever touched sacred. < 1299888748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34:04 So I'd have to say ye. < 1299888750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34:05 *yes < 1299888752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34:28 He was a carpenter? < 1299888754 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:34:45 O_O < 1299888756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:35:09 How can anyone in the western hemisphere not know that. < 1299888758 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:35:55 I take it I'm in the western hemisphere... < 1299888760 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:36:07 O_O < 1299888762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:36:25 I am stunned. < 1299888957 0 :cheater-!~cheater@g224201183.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1299888982 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pastebin.ca is back < 1299888998 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :APNIC down 0.02: 256k+64k+16k+8k+4k+1k to China, 16k+1k+512 to Indonesia, 32k to China, 1k to South Korea, 2k to Vietnam, 2k to Singapore, 64k to Thailand. < 1299889146 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299889172 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that the Greek did not actually specify "carpenter". It used a more general term for what amounts to a skilled laborer. < 1299889184 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could very well have been a mason, or a smith, or whatever else. < 1299889210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:05:02 hei < 1299889210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:05:31 hei kipple (=rune?) < 1299889210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:05:41 ja < 1299889210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:06:31 det var stille her < 1299889210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:06:54 det er ikke akkurat den mest aktive kanalen i verden nei < 1299889211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:06:58 i wondered if keymaker was here he seemed interested in my last language < 1299889213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:07:28 det var mer liv sist men det var litt senere på kvelden < 1299889215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:09:47 Swedish? < 1299889216 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just somebody who listed himself as a skilled labor because it helped him cheat on his taxes. < 1299889220 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interpretation of Jesus as carpenter is, well, fan fiction. < 1299889221 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*skilled laborer < 1299889223 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I approve of this interpretation. < 1299889230 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why he was such a dick to taxy-men. < 1299889235 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like almost all details of hell. < 1299889262 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And essentially all practices of a modern church except communion. < 1299889306 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*communism < 1299889307 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and baptism of believers. That's actually in there, too. < 1299889320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*baguette < 1299889321 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Communism is not a practice of the modern church. < 1299889324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES IT IS. < 1299889329 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*baptism of infants too young to be capable of having distinguished beliefs < 1299889333 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Though a form of it *was* a practice of the early church. < 1299889343 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baptism of infants is mostly a Catholic thing. < 1299889351 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[>+<-]>-] < 1299889356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it does something i thought impossible. but is useless. < 1299889372 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, ihope already wrote that. in 2006. :) < 1299889377 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, essentially that. < 1299889381 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-[>+<-]>] < 1299889383 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And rejecting it is actually the raison d'etre for many Protestant sects. < 1299889392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*baptism of fire < 1299889395 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of fire of infants < 1299889404 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including, of all things, the Amish. < 1299889413 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1299889417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you swap two tape cells in BF? < 1299889419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without using a third value... < 1299889420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think not < 1299889430 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without using a third? No. < 1299889462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: indeed. < 1299889466 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you may be able to pull it off in 1-bit BF. < 1299889475 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmmmmmmaybe < 1299889482 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just < 1299889522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if { right; if {} else {flip left flip} } else { right; if {flip left flip} else {} } < 1299889536 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's almost valid PEBBLE. < 1299889538 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, so basically if x==y then flip both :) < 1299889544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's ==, xor? < 1299889547 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait xor is !=. < 1299889561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: what's it in pebble? < 1299889570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait I can do this I think < 1299889590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if { right; flip; if {left flip} else {flip} } else { right; if {flip left flip} else {} } < 1299889601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if { right; flip; if {left flip} else {flip} } else { right; flip; if {left flip} else {flip} } < 1299889618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1299889651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up how to do if in regular bf < 1299889676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait I can't use a regular if < 1299889680 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, wait < 1299889690 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if is destructive, yeah. < 1299889710 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if-else requires a temporary cell, I think. < 1299889715 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while { right; flip; if {left flip **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS**} else {flip **LOOP WILL CONTINUE AFTER THIS**}} < 1299889726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1299889735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while { right; flip; if {left flip **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS**} else {flip; right **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS, BUT ONE CELL TOO FAR**}} < 1299889754 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while { right; flip; if {left flip right **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS, BUT ONE CELL TOO FAR**} else {flip; right **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS, BUT ONE CELL TOO FAR**}} < 1299889774 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while { right; flip; if {left flip right} else {flip right} } left < 1299889780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that the else crept back in :D < 1299889781 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1299889783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both end with flip right < 1299889783 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You realise you need to actually implement if-else for that to work, right? < 1299889784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excellent < 1299889792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while { right; flip; if {left}; flip right } left < 1299889801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unfortunately*, < 1299889806 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while { right; flip; while {left}; flip right } left < 1299889807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will not work < 1299889815 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since left is *true* here... < 1299889820 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while {left; flip} will. < 1299889825 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1299889831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: yes, but gives the wrong result for the rest of the code :) < 1299889835 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, wait < 1299889840 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this can be done as a truth table < 1299889842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is < 1299889844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either 1,1 < 1299889846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 0,0 < 1299889849 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will have both 1s in the output < 1299889861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you flip one way < 1299889868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is no way to do an if, I think... < 1299889876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, indeed < 1299889881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't halt after generating "1,1" with [] < 1299889889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without moving outside those bounds < 1299889893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Alas. < 1299889993 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you *could* successfully flip 0,1 and 1,0 around. :P < 1299890002 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip; left; flip < 1299890006 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: *right < 1299890007 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, right; < 1299890010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. :p < 1299890020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can swap two bits with one extra bit trivially. < 1299890026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(initialised to 0) < 1299890084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while {right right flip left left flip}; right; while {left flip right flip}; right; while {left flip right flip}; left; left < 1299890085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1299890097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[>>*<<*]>[<*>*]>[<*>*]<< < 1299890108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in bitchanger < 1299890125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, too hard :D < 1299890147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1299890148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1299890154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't swap the two registers of a minsky machine < 1299890156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think < 1299890405 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ǃqháa̰ kū ǂnûm ǁɢˤûlitê ǀè dtxóʔlu ǀnàe ǂʼá sˤàa̰ < 1299890406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give MPO:4PRO two genital:22-P ASS:3 stench:3 DAT:3PRO COM:2 fat:22 < 1299890406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Give them their stinking genitals with the fat!" < 1299890407 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--Wikipedia < 1299890415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/!X%C3%B3%C3%B5_language < 1299890445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the nonsuckiest of program argument handling libraries? < 1299890463 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or better yet, one-header macromess :P < 1299890483 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: "Uh." < 1299890486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getopt usually... works. < 1299890488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glib has something. < 1299890518 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Here's a katana. < 1299890521 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But really it's one of the many simple problems that the C language has no convenient facility for dealing with: an option is essentially best described by an ADT. < 1299890543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C, any sufficiently rich option parser will be using a big struct with a bunch of enums, which never leads to a nice API. < 1299890550 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, to commit se'hųku properly, you need to be able to write 口 correctly... < 1299890564 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence "nonsuckiest", not "best" :P < 1299890565 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a skilled swordsman to assist you in case you screw up. < 1299890653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Weeeeell, since it's easy to implement there's no shortage of choices, but I don't know anything I'd consider as "good"; usually I just use getopt (even getopt_long) or hack up my own thing. Or not write the program in C (my favourite). < 1299890669 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's always the GNUUUUUUUUUUU choice: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/resources/courses/2005/17423/doc/libc/Argp.html < 1299890699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : else < 1299890699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {{{ < 1299890700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1299890731 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I guess I'll just stick with self-hackery, just wondering if something nonsuck had cropped up while I wasn't looking. < 1299890744 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What're you working on? Or just a general question? < 1299890766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, lol @ the idea of something new in C ever cropping up :) < 1299890779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not since, uhhhh, Duff's Device? < 1299890834 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fythe. AKA "program you will now find some facet of to ridicule" < 1299890849 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Actually I was thinking of working on my own Fythe-esque VM... :p < 1299890859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Remember that Fythe is essentially a slight perversion of an idea I gave you wholesale :P < 1299890864 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Obviously, I invented Forth.) < 1299890892 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it's turned into a huge perversion that has greater resemblance to Lisp except really has no resemblance to either :P < 1299890923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's stack-based and words can control the parsing stream (I think); that's Forth. < 1299890938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they can't control the parsing Scheme, way to defeat the whole point of the extensibility Forth gives you :-P < 1299890942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*parsing stream, < 1299890943 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not stack based and word's can't control the parsing stream ... per se. < 1299890945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LISP ON THE BRAIN. < 1299890950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I thought it was stack-based. < 1299890970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point with me giving you the idea is that there would essentially be an (automatically-executed) "plof" definition that took over the parsing stream with a regular (extensible) Plof parser. < 1299890977 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I've seen the suggestion of separate tail-cal vs. not-a-tail-call thing before, but Rust actually does it < 1299890995 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Uhh, THAT'S what I already had :P < 1299891007 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Uhh, no? < 1299891022 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fythe was to add a more powerful controllable compilation layer to it such that you could create output code that doesn't suck. < 1299891028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The point is that you could, given a Fythe REPL of some sort, write "c int main() { return 42; } HEY C WORD, THIS IS YOUR CUE TO END 1 +" < 1299891036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Given that c pushes the return value of the program.) < 1299891042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: At least that was /my/ point. < 1299891058 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, that's what I already had :P < 1299891072 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not an implementation of C in particular, but yeah. < 1299891110 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really, really like log and note < 1299891146 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem was that the way I defined it made it much easier to do very local compilation ... basically taking each expression independently and treating its arguments as a black box. This produces shittacular code. < 1299891165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Shittacular but elegant! < 1299891172 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But shittacular :P < 1299891175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is Fythe JITted? If not: TOTAL OPPORTUNITY MISSED THERE YO < 1299891181 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's JITted. < 1299891181 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Wait, wait, JITting isn't ANSI C PORTABLE.) < 1299891193 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The JIT in particular is GNUy :P < 1299891194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Please tell me every damn JITting part has a huge ifdef mess to optionally not JIT :P < 1299891205 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has no non-JIT option right now. < 1299891214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GASPETHETTE < 1299891216 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or probably ever) < 1299891234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I'd do a Fythe-esque VM rather than using Fythe, apart from NIHness, is for hosted implementation of @... < 1299891266 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Fythe has its flaws and weirdnesses anyway, it'd be cool to see what somebody who isn't me would write with the same basic premise. < 1299891271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JITting might actually be a downside there insofar as portability would be nice, but OTOH who cares about non-Linux. < 1299891309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh, non-/Linux/? My JIT works ARM, x86, x86_64, and on Linux, Windows and Mac OS X. < 1299891315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about mine. < 1299891323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrote it before your line. < 1299891332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Sure. It'd not "really" be Fythe, though, because the language would be designed to be possible to write semi-complex pieces of software in without too much of a headache. (After all, @'s super-advanced high-level language's compiler has to be implemented in it.) < 1299891345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH a lot of that could be built up in the language itself. < 1299891355 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought @ was an OS ... so I don't understand how "non-Linux" fits in since it ... is ... non-Linux ... ? < 1299891373 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, HOSTED < 1299891374 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Like I said, hosted implementation of @. Like a 16-bit OS considers the BIOS, hosted @ considers Linux. < 1299891378 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totes read. < 1299891392 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: This wouldn't be exclusive, just a first step, since hosted "only" OSes are just shitty programs. < 1299891419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The idea is that 99% of @ code in the long run would be portable, so ostensibly I could just write the low level x86-64 parts in the future and it'd all work. Ostensibly.) < 1299891428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Drivers and such might get in the way a bit. :p) < 1299891451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The formal meaning of TC describes abstract systems that are not necessarily physically realisable. If ais523 intended the formal meaning, then "HTML+CSS+infinite starting pattern" is TC, and the fact that this is not realisable is irrelevant. He cannot use "the pattern shown there" or "the example shown" as evidence against TC-ness of the abstract system." < 1299891493 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this person even posses... a brain... < 1299891518 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEW SOLUTION: I was planning on having a way for Fythe programs to pull arguments off the argument "queue" anyway, and Fythe programs of course have a way of parsing Fythe programs (sort of by definition), so I'll just implement the argument parser as a Fythe program. Solution problemed! ... I mean problem solved! < 1299891546 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Make it EXTENSIBLE. < 1299891552 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Through ILL-DEFINED MEANS. < 1299891570 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ponies) < 1299891571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Like, if I want to, I can swap out any program using a common "get an option" API to use a / prefix rather than --... EVEN IF THAT PREFIX IS EMBEDDED INTO THE GET AN OPTION API < 1299891581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although that's easy, by just redefining it wholesale.) < 1299891588 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But it's the cort that thounts.) < 1299891595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No court would thount.) < 1299891629 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1299891651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! < 1299891653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you just wake up? :) < 1299891659 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MWAHAHAHA* < 1299891664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's call that a yes < 1299891672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ØST SUCCESSFULLY CALIBRATED < 1299891679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1299891687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what you're saying is, you didn't sleep. < 1299891711 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... ASSUMING oerjan isn't being a jerk by being inconsistent, he got up around 1:25 UTC, let's say. < 1299891719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :round to 1:30 UTC. < 1299891736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given how this is going, i think i'll keep this as a challenge... < 1299891739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what's your "natural" feeling wakeuptime < 1299891745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, when your 25 hour thing wraps around properly < 1299891753 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... well this is creepy. < 1299891755 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, 7 am? 9 am? 12 pm? < 1299891757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: THIS IS IMPORTANT < 1299891771 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: He REFUSES to provide scientific data. < 1299891801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: How else will I make a website telling the world the current UTC offset of Oerjan Standard Time?!?!?!?!?!??!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!??!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! < 1299891807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!???!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!! < 1299891807 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1299891812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it, i'm going to analyse irc logs. < 1299892064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :• pikhq_ notes that the Greek did not actually specify "carpenter". It used a more general term for what amounts to a skilled laborer. < 1299892082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEXT YOU'LL BE TELLING ME THERE WEREN'T THREE WISE KINGS, EITHER < 1299892117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no virgins anywhere to be seen. < 1299892163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 15:09:47 Swedish? < 1299892172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this, make ihope look stupid day? < 1299892184 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep! < 1299892187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok let's see < 1299892225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:14 -> 19:19 -> 18:58 -> 20:10 -> 23:44 -> gap -> 1:06 -> 2:11 -> 5:41 (?!?!?!) -> 13:50 (?!?!??!) -> 17:00 (?????) -> 15:55 -> 15:45 -> oerjan is fucking with me in the past < 1299892258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i conclude that "Good night" has no relation to (1) whether it is night; (2) whether the quit constitutes a valid ØST recalibration < 1299892261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:03:37 And essentially all practices of a modern church except communion. < 1299892265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or oerjan is just a dirty filthy liar. < 1299892268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:04:22 Oh, and baptism of believers. That's actually in there, too. < 1299892294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i distinctly recall reading the protestants cut the sacraments down to those two presumably for that reason. < 1299892335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1299892336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this data is useless < 1299892340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think "Good night" usually describes my intent at the moment, at least. < 1299892358 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether i actually manage to go to sleep then, may vary. < 1299892394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so I just need to find some samples that /do/ advance properly, and then interpolate from there ;D < 1299892404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor is now edging slowly away from me. < 1299892498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume the fact that i even in usual circumstances frequently take a break from irc while awake does not help. < 1299892594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's why i only grepped for "Good night" < 1299892598 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a scientist, dammit < 1299892601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1299892724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Baptism of infants is mostly a Catholic thing. < 1299892733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norwegian church does that too... < 1299892786 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hence why I said "mostly". < 1299892809 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some Protestant churches *do* keep many Catholic-origin traditions, after all. < 1299892832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think you may be able to pull it off in 1-bit BF. < 1299892855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. the cell from which you leave the last loop must have a fixed final value. < 1299892943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for more context can you swap two tape cells in BF? < 1299892944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1299892957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1299893048 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can't swap the two registers of a minsky machine < 1299893058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would seem to be a stronger version of this, yes < 1299893080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, as I mentally swapped (ha!) "two values, infinite tape" and "infinite values, two-long tape" < 1299893084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*with < 1299893127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: which is what i did in my previous underload construction, too < 1299893224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Now, to commit se'hųku properly, you need to be able to write 口 correctly... < 1299893231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And a skilled swordsman to assist you in case you screw up. < 1299893242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those japanese take their calligraphy seriously. < 1299893300 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, you really, really do write a simple kanji in your stomach to commit seppuku. < 1299893323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1299893366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which appropriately means "opening". < 1299893468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Actually it's turned into a huge perversion that has greater resemblance to Lisp except really has no resemblance to either :P < 1299893486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might want to consult with someone else with a name starting in "gre" < 1299893894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 math questions, 100 minutes < 1299893896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do this < 1299893916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well could, if you could stay off irc. < 1299893978 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have my SGU music playing < 1299894069 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Gre...enReaper? < 1299894113 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: What?! Open source isn't good enough for you? Bersirc 2.2 [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ] < 1299894200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Laurence "GreenReaper" Parry (born 1982) is the founder of WikiFur, editor-in-chief of Flayrah, and an amateur photographer." < 1299894207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: WELL IF YOU INSIST... < 1299894237 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S THE ONE < 1299894250 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grelnakov? < 1299894284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: GOOGLE EXISTENCE FAILURE < 1299894304 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grezhnev? < 1299894357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Grezhnev, VA (V A) :: [A device for automatic determination, calculation and storage of parameters in cardiointervalography] < 1299894360 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1299894401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parameters after my heart < 1299894422 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreekSalad? < 1299894428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1299894431 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grep? < 1299894436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1299894452 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact the first one was closest. < 1299894456 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gremlins? < 1299894457 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@209.150.235.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299894466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add water. < 1299894525 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh GreaseMonkey? < 1299894544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fail to see how these are closer than the first one. < 1299894573 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL IDONNO < 1299894580 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But will continue to guess. < 1299894624 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greuido van Rossum? < 1299894679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can anyone be Benevolent with a name like Guido, anyway < 1299894687 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep -i '^[^ ]* "Laurence "GreenReaper" Parry (born 1982) is the founder of WikiFur, editor-in-chief of Flayrah, and an amateur photographer." < 1299895363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: WELL IF YOU INSIST... < 1299895364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Siner :P < 1299895377 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1299895406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm < 1299895409 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Grerik Naggum? < 1299895433 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Grohn McCarthy?!?!??!?!! < 1299895444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Graul Praham?! < 1299895479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i find it hard to believe a 40 char bf program can't generate a larger number than 1172812402960. < 1299895489 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc dbc had some short program outputting a very large number in here years ago. < 1299895504 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naggum is dead. if Gregor has means of consulting with him, be very careful. < 1299895518 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like he's been a busy beaver < 1299895536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: ba-dum < 1299895537 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TISH < 1299895548 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: HE LIVES ON IN SEXPRESSIONS. < 1299895748 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you, i'll be here all week < 1299895841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should point out it's not the first name which starts with gre. < 1299895851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Paul Grehem? < 1299895857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if I got up at 10:45. hmhm < 1299895861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm. < 1299895863 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arithmetic is hard. < 1299895957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :35 hours. hey, that is not bad. < 1299895960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finishe my homework < 1299895995 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, last time it was... about 34 hours. < 1299896008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: two all-nighters in a row: best way to resynchronise? < 1299896079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i've had that backfire before < 1299896085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: howso? < 1299896092 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i woke up well-rested today. thankfully. < 1299896105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole problem is that i overslept, waking up about an hour and forty-five minutes later than i should have. < 1299896114 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now I've been unable to get myself to bed on time (time = 1 am or so) < 1299896117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(time now is almost 3 am) < 1299896123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by oversleeping enough to flip right back again... < 1299896138 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: indeed, but thankfully i already did my oversleeping < 1299896141 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why i haven't been tired today < 1299896149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: plus, i'll likely only last until about 9 pm. < 1299896152 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or 10 pm. < 1299896153 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a short program generating Fibonacci numbers. But that page is talking about putting large numbers in a cell, which is unportable and slow and totally the wrong way to do things anyway. < 1299896156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so oversleeping is a /benefit/ < 1299896168 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: otherwise i'd wake up at 5 am :) < 1299896187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 hours of sleep puts me awake at 9 am, a perfectly cromulent time to get up. < 1299896208 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc: hmm, I'm sure you had a program to do that in the logs. < 1299896214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the unportable/slowness is irrelevant. < 1299896217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is purely theoretical :) < 1299896225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically busy beaver problem < 1299896245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it takes cycles to generate a number, etc. < 1299896323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: also i might go out and walk about a bit in the daytime to keep me awake. (i'm more sane than to go on your pattern of "GO FOR A BRISK WALK IN THE COLDEST SEASON OF A VERY COLD COUNTRY AT THE COLDEST, DARKEST TIME OF NIGHT") < 1299896376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:34:07 I'm in Keswick (pronounced Kezik for some reason). Bye :-P < 1299896376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE REASON FOR ITS PRONUNCIATION IS A CLOSELY-GUARDED BRITISH SECRET. < 1299896518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it was at one time conquered by a stray turkish battalion, and you are trying to hide the embarassment < 1299896596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+r < 1299896682 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I just spent a minute or so dinking with the problem afresh, without too much luck. I'll see if it's in my logfiles on this computer now. < 1299896807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read as "drinking"; alcohol is a great way to get BF inspiration. < 1299896815 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not recent enough. < 1299896847 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could grep, but I would have trouble finding a decent regexp. < 1299896865 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:55:14 Did anyone do anything with your busy beaver task? < 1299896866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:55:26 * immibis wonders what ihope__ and dbc are talking about < 1299896866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:55:34 * immibis reads the irc log < 1299896866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:55:46 * immibis sees that you are running a BF factorial program. < 1299896869 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that seems plausible. < 1299896897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:43:56 !bf >>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<++++[>++++++++++[>++++++++++[>.<-]<-]<-] < 1299896898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:44:00 ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( < 1299896899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that. :p < 1299896967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: If I'm yawning now things are going well, right? < 1299896982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...maybe < 1299896998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's 3 am. SO gonna go outside at the crack of dawn* < 1299897000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*post-crack. < 1299897004 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*like, really post crack. < 1299897012 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That last one is clearly not it. < 1299897016 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly writing this forth os will sharpen my mind. < 1299897022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc: Well yeah, but it's a BF program! < 1299897030 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh huh. < 1299897060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, with a bignum tape, you can do 2^x for any x with constant overhead, right? < 1299897062 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that just calculates 4*10*10 < 1299897095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it stands to reason that M(l+k) >= 2^M(l), where M(l) is the largest integer a halting BF program of length l can leave on a bignum tape. < 1299897101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for constant k < 1299897120 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^x (or 3^x or whatever) using x commands plus constant overhead, yes. < 1299897158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: um that page you linked clearly explains how to do powers < 1299897162 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or less if x is biggish. < 1299897165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc: Using x commands? Ah, well, right. No, what I meant was that if you have a program of length l that calculates n, < 1299897171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just append the 2^ code, and get 2^n. < 1299897177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it does not even have to be a straight run of +s. < 1299897184 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be a more compact method of generating a large number. < 1299897186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh did it :D < 1299897195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is also http://www.iwriteiam.nl/D0904.html#15 < 1299897222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact the Brainfuck constants page contains several examples of the method. < 1299897307 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, [on googlefight] 23:37:25 whoever's repeatedly doing god vs s***n can piss off < 1299897314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor Stan. < 1299897319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that's two letters. < 1299897325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor... Santn. < 1299897332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simon. clearly. < 1299897333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor span. < 1299897336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Of course. < 1299897344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:38:28 http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=jesus+porn&word2=furry+porn < 1299897345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:38:36 That is ... frightening. < 1299897348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean without garfunkel to protect him. < 1299897366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Garfunkel obviously IS god. < 1299897370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stands to reason. < 1299897379 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to reason sitting down < 1299897415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: So did the Garfield [WORD THAT SOUNDS LIKE MINUS] Garfield thing finally die? < 1299897426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, "Garfield Skynet Garfield: Judgment Day" really did end them :D < 1299897443 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like [[>]+[<]>-]>>[<[>++<-]>>] is reasonably concise, though imprecise. < 1299897444 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i recall dmm saying something about taking a break at least. < 1299897457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imprecise? < 1299897544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/comics/0629.png this is nice < 1299897549 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't produce powers. It produces big power-y numbers. < 1299897641 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A New Kind of Powers. < 1299897772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1299898268 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=652 < 1299898370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/comics/0655.png < 1299899087 0 :shachaf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299899340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:09:16 Anything I do that's related to the silly prototype phone is probably automagically under the NDA I signed when starting there. < 1299899340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was the phone a BOMB? < 1299899344 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's plausible. < 1299899895 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He can neither confirm nor deny it. < 1299900040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:20:10 ```si`k``si`k``sii``s``s`kski < 1299900040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:21:06 I think that's the Church numeral for Steinhaus's Mega. < 1299900040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:30:14 And ```si`k``si`k``si`k``sii``s``s`kski is much, much bigger... < 1299900040 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:15:32 Now here's a nice sequence: !1 = 2, !2 = 8, !3 = 402653184*2^402653184. < 1299900200 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is prefix-!? < 1299900512 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@208.69.183.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299900803 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: WHO KNOWS < 1299900971 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: was it you who were trying to say something to me somewhere past my scrollback? < 1299901045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: prolly < 1299901048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:44:13 done; http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/selfmd5.py < 1299901049 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:45:32 it's md5 (and output) is (or at least should be) b1f532d69db9c1366389ff855da9ae04 < 1299901050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wuut < 1299901069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hexdigest of that string isn't same :P < 1299901073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the same. < 1299901567 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1299901569 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-224-234.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299901576 0 :RodgerTheGreat!~rodger@71-13-218-144.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299901600 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey dudes < 1299901702 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299902041 0 :variable!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: /dev/io failed < 1299902152 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I thought 4.3 billion potential addresses would be adequate for conducting the experiments to prove the technology. If it worked, then we could go back and design the production version. Of course, it is now 2011, and the experiment never exactly ended." :D < 1299902169 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1299902205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches no red pandas do absolutely nothing -- live < 1299902208 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still contend that the ugliness of IPv6 addresses is a major stumbling block to adoption over v4 < 1299902213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wonders. Of the internet. < 1299902222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: DNS was invented decades ago to solve the ugliness of IP addresses. < 1299902235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he says, while hosting logs at "208.78.103.223") < 1299902265 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see also LANs and a million other places where people like us work with IPs < 1299902287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Anyway, considering that IANA is completely devoid of IPv4 addresses (apart from strongly reserved ->IPv6 transitional blocks), and the RIRs are running out fast, quibbles like that really don't matter any more. :) < 1299902288 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the end of the day we'll have to look at the damn things < 1299902295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that if IPv6 isn't adopted, there just is no internet. < 1299902302 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: If they are internal addresses, you can assign them how you want with IPv4... < 1299902325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IPv4 isn't going to "go away" any time in the next trillion years, it'll just be relatively useless externally in the long term. < 1299902344 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying IPv6 isn't going to be adopted, I'm saying it kinda sucks and represents a missed opportunity/misstep < 1299902355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Zooko's triangle. < 1299902357 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need more space- this is obvious and inescapable < 1299902368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Secure, decentralised, human-meaningful: pick two. < 1299902372 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP addresses *must* be decentralised. < 1299902379 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP addresses *must* be secure (in that you can't just pick the same IP as someone else). < 1299902384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore they cannot be human meaningful. < 1299902395 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That needs to be handled at a separate layer, i.e. DNS. < 1299902405 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, there's no reason you can't assign internal hostnames either, at the router level. < 1299902445 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tacking on another couple of .FF suffixes would've solved the problem without making them nasty to parse and look at < 1299902465 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299902466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Couple"? 32-bit vs. 128-bit :P < 1299902510 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly we all need to use the @DN instead. < 1299902515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until then, IPv6 is perfectly cromulent. < 1299902676 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1299902706 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other news I have built a partial implementation of itertools for forth: http://pastebin.com/kMsZRR8U < 1299902795 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow... it'll offend both Forthers and Pythonistas (hate that term) alike. < 1299902802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impressive :P < 1299902824 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a good day < 1299902834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks a bit un-factored, especially range/sequence/slice/filter/chain/zip having very similar structure to my eyes. But fun. < 1299902840 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1299902842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pain to manage the memory manually though. < 1299902854 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I think standard convention is to put the ; on the last line, but who cares... < 1299902870 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I haven't implemented repeat and cycle, so I don't have to do dynamic allocation < 1299902895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So map destroys the original iterator? < 1299902904 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like consumes < 1299902933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In HASKELL, generators/iterators are exactly equivalent to lists. >:) < 1299902946 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am currently using defining words that build anonymous words to function as closures < 1299902967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("newtype Generator a = Gen (Maybe (a, Generator a))" is directly algebraically transformable into the list type.) < 1299902969 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, well in Forth I know what actually happens when I use generators < 1299902981 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell your guess is as good as mine < 1299902983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what happens in Haskell, too. :p < 1299902990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's because I know the language and stuff. < 1299902994 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and in PYTHON, generators are merely retarded >:) < 1299903010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Whaddya do when you have a limited set of control structures and they all suck. < 1299903065 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my language none of the control structures are primitive < 1299903090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, nor in Haskell. :p < 1299903090 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suck it, monolithic compilers < 1299903097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, I've actually directly implemented Haskell-like lists in C. < 1299903102 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... A few different times. < 1299903115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well... "if x then y else z" is, but that's a wart; you can just as easily rewrite that as a function (though without the then/else, but those are warts in themselves)) < 1299903330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: case < 1299903346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, right. but. < 1299903366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if your language has no way to distinguish any two values, then you're not going to be able to implement every other control structure :D < 1299903377 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you could do it Church style in Haskell I guess, buuuut...) < 1299903377 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth could conceivably be extended to act like haskell. Dunno why anyone would want to do that, though. < 1299903384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: To get a high-level language? < 1299903401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, Forth is both low-level and highly flexible. < 1299903414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much any bending/breaking of the language is permissible. < 1299903422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Forth, but I'd rather write a large program in Haskell than Forth by far. < 1299903432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just about levels of expression and abstraction. < 1299903443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At a certain point in Forth, to go further you have to write your own interpreter loop. < 1299903451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And at that point you can't reasonably claim you're programming in Forth any more. < 1299903470 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth is somewhat hampered by the general "anti-library" culture < 1299903499 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Well... it excels in writing self-contained systems. < 1299903502 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's hardly surprising. < 1299903506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Embedded work is a subset of this.) < 1299903530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's 2011, and my IDE still doesn't have a REPL!" ;; the title of a blog post written by somebody using the wrong IDE. < 1299903572 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of this is because the language is only half of "forth". The other half is an engineering approach that is about agressive simplification. If you don't have a closed system, unnecessary complexity from the outside world will leak in and make your forth uglier and more complex < 1299903593 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure... which is a direct argument *against* libraries. < 1299903612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That kind of thing works for many tasks, but Forth tends to fall apart when it comes into contact with large *inherent* complexity. < 1299903636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said, you can do it, but you end up writing an ad-hoc, probably buggy and flawed language, and then writing your actual program in that language. < 1299903637 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moore would claim no system has inherent complexity < 1299903650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moore would hate MPEG. < 1299903653 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he probably wouldn't write a web browser either < 1299903660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he would. I don't know Moore as a person who says things that are blatantly wrong. < 1299903673 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Uh, actually, he did this talk on colorForth where he suggested someone write a web browser. < 1299903697 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but his argument isn't completely flawed. Browsers could be much, much simpler than they are < 1299903701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The web is of course totally accidental/engineered overcomplexity. But not everything fits directly into Forth as cleanly as it might in another language. < 1299903718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I hate the web, who doesn't? It's incredibly badly architectured. < 1299903741 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm imagining he'd like something more like wget with a graphics package < 1299903755 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget? That involves all the complexity of TCP. < 1299903757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1299903759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget? That involves all the complexity of HTTP. < 1299903765 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant in terms of interfaces < 1299903775 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"here is a word that fetches a page" < 1299903783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine he'd just load arbitrary Forth programs off the wire... I'm not sure he'd add any security to it either : < 1299903784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) < 1299903789 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bingo < 1299903801 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...which is a worse design than the web, but at least a simpler one. < 1299903816 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be critiqued in a few lines, rather than the book it'd take to dissect the web. < 1299903842 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you sandboxed it you could make that approach work < 1299903859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. Then the problem is transferring stuff out (but it wouldn't be too hard). < 1299903864 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and given how easy forth-in-forth can be it wouldn't be that ridiculous to implement < 1299903871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Unfortunately a sandbox would take quite a bit of work in Forth, since words usually touch the hardware very directly. < 1299903874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it would be elegant. < 1299903880 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1299903890 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well think about it < 1299903909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the worst bit of that design is that it would be very hard to design pages *well* in such a scheme. < 1299903912 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't care about speed it comes down to a handful of "dangerous" primitives like ! @ and execute < 1299903917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much like HTML, to be honest. < 1299903924 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: and p@ and p! (in cforth) < 1299903926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uh < 1299903932 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c@ c! < 1299903932 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably dozens of others that access memory without asking :) < 1299903936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicitly, that is < 1299903945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though at least you wouldn't be spending your time working around straight-up misfeatures. < 1299903949 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are really only a handful that can't be implemented in terms of others < 1299903952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And bugs. < 1299903956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots of those. < 1299903969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: So now you've complicated the problem of an information system into a Forth implementation. < 1299903974 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and again, if speed is not a consideration you can build a huge percentage of a forth system in high-level forth < 1299903980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine implementation incompatibilities in *that* :) < 1299903987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Sure, but then you're not taking advantage of Forth really. < 1299903990 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can implement Forth in anything. < 1299903996 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Why yes, you can write a Lisp in anything. < 1299903999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1299904010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Pet Solution to the web is simply distributed object retrieval. < 1299904015 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where object is _not_ used in the OOP sense.) < 1299904029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well... slightly. But >90% of OOP is bunk.) < 1299904038 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's a mirror of how the underlying system works, it isn't a significant increase in the complexity of the whole, which is really what I see as the issue < 1299904041 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1299904073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing is that systems like Haskell seem complex and inscrutable *only* because we approach them from a background biased against them; take a look at your x86. < 1299904076 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a C processor. < 1299904084 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOP isn't necessary for programming per se. OOP is useful for sawing up tasks and distributing them across multiple programmers. It's a teamwork methodology. < 1299904093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider if we all had Reducerons, a CPU with no instruction set: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ < 1299904099 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a symbolic graph reducer on a chip. < 1299904106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From that, Haskell would seem a billion times more natural than Forth or C < 1299904107 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*C. < 1299904120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So simplicity can often be a misleading concept, because it's relative. < 1299904135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : OOP isn't necessary for programming per se. OOP is useful for sawing up tasks and distributing them across multiple programmers. It's a teamwork methodology. < 1299904143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could believe this if people did not include inheritance in OOP. < 1299904159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I certainly don't call inheritance mandatory for OOP. < 1299904161 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :separation of concerns < 1299904163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1299904166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But people use inheritance in OOP. < 1299904171 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, true. < 1299904173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And inheritance breaks APIs. < 1299904181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which can often cause pain and agony and sorrow. < 1299904190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any time composition can't do something and inheritance can, that is because of a design flaw somewhere. < 1299904199 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same sense that "integers break APIs" < 1299904201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And inheritance impedes distributed teamwork with its intense coupling of code. < 1299904203 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Uh, no. < 1299904213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inheritance is a tool to break an object's interface. < 1299904220 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you apply the tool improperly you will bleed < 1299904231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: What can inheritance do that composition can't, that does not arise from a design flaw? < 1299904254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, re tool-improperly-you-will-bleed: by that argument, assembly is perfectly OK for teamwork. < 1299904269 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that it has a huge possibility for error and messing beyond API boundaries -- hey, apply improperly and you'll bleed. < 1299904306 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inheritance and composition are of equivalent expressive power. Lemme go fire up my turing machine. < 1299904358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: No. Because a subclass of class A can be used as an A, despite the fact that its implementation may break the Liskov substitution principle. (And this can be VERY tricky to get right, even if it does not seem so). (Note: Eiffel avoids this. Most people do not use Eiffel.) < 1299904371 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, in many languages subclasses can access data that the rest of the world can't... which is just *wrong wrong wrong*. < 1299904395 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will parenthetically note that C++ is OOP in name only < 1299904443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paraphrase of Alan Kay: "I invented the term OOP, and I can tell you, I didn't have C++ in mind. [laughter] Not Smalltalk, either. < 1299904452 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is usually quoted without that last sentence; one may speculate freely on the reasons why.) < 1299904468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would paste the real quote but it is impossible to find; Google only yields the incomplete versions.) < 1299904471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*either." < 1299904773 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1299904773 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | it's done, the only thing it doesn't do is annotate a paste < 1299904776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1299904776 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | ;P < 1299904777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1299904778 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | heh < 1299904779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1299904779 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | + Nick change: AntiGarlicMonste -> ais523 < 1299904781 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1299904781 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | its hard to see the fractals :( < 1299904840 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^echo optbot < 1299904840 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot optbot < 1299904840 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what pikhq said < 1299904840 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: System to take template file and packages and build bit-exact ISO from those. < 1299904844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, no longer works. < 1299904852 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1299904878 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-242-73.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299904891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1299904901 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: dude, you really need to do something about your net connection < 1299904907 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1299904913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes into SPACE. < 1299904917 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ok, it used to. < 1299904919 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it just buffers. < 1299904936 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's my stepdad's new router. It sucks ass. And he thinks he's better at tech than I. And is paranoid. < 1299904942 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can't do anything about it at all. < 1299904955 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were in college now < 1299904966 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live at home, for I am cheap. < 1299904973 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good lord < 1299904977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's my stepdad's new router. It sucks ass. And he thinks he's better at tech than I. And is paranoid. < 1299904979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost as bad as sgeo's! < 1299905038 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my opinion living at home to save money is a rather egregious false economy. < 1299905045 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :case in point < 1299905060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Only if you can get decent work. < 1299905066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at you, America. < 1299905080 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The money to move out isn't going to come out of thin air. And employment is hard to find ATM. < 1299905086 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colleges *love* to pay students to do things < 1299905102 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if you have enough brain cells to rub together for undergrad research < 1299905124 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Community college, because I can't bloody well afford to do otherwise. < 1299905135 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1299905149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Well, at least I'm not going to Sgeo's." < 1299905177 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not even joking, an associate's from here would be worth more than a bachelor's from there. < 1299905195 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT REQUIRES MORE BUSINESS CLASSES THAN MATH CLASSES FOR GOD'S SAKE < 1299905201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a Ph.D. from there. God, they'll actually do Ph.D.s, won't they. < 1299905206 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go cry now. < 1299905870 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299907310 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | very fine... just got back from holidays. < 1299907339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: so where did you have your holiday? < 1299907339 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: computer records. < 1299907346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i see. < 1299907719 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172176.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1299909090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299909356 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-167-26.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299909881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299910446 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299910571 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/V9aab < 1299910595 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172176.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1299910644 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1299910894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1299910981 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that screenshot < 1299910998 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am constantly baffled at the things people post online < 1299911004 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, cheater spoke. < 1299911021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: it's not about online. it's just that you only see it because it's online < 1299911047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless people regularly tell you about people 6 degrees separated from you and how they talked to this idiotic person they know < 1299911049 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus "the things people post online" < 1299911058 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know people are ignorant and prejudiced < 1299911066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1299911081 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more ignorant and prejudiced, the less realising of that they are. < 1299911083 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it surprises me that people say stuff like that in a public forum < 1299911109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems obvious that they thought their original point was totally unobjectionable, and then just tried to save face badly when their social peers reacted badly < 1299911111 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're right, it shouldn't really be that hard to believe < 1299911133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to live in a world where such things _do_ elicit legitimate incredulity. < 1299911198 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm worried about the 5 "likes". < 1299911224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehh, I'm sure "like" is applied to things people hate but lol at. < 1299911229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Badly named. < 1299911238 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the liker, probably < 1299911239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Someone else can confirm/deny this, I don't use facebook.) < 1299911240 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There needs to be a "Fuck you" button. < 1299911285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought: emacs : unix :: facebook : the internet. < 1299911293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Emacs is a great OS, but I prefer Unix." < 1299911332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:05:03 optbot: so where did you have your holiday? < 1299911332 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: making this is so hard :D < 1299911332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:05:03 oerjan: computer records. < 1299911332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:05:10 ...i see. < 1299911332 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc < 1299911334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: brilliant. < 1299911343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it traversed into another data structure :) < 1299911380 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the horror when people start thinking facebook "is" the internet like they think google is < 1299911387 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe they already have < 1299911416 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Maybe they have. Let's put it this way: facebook has all but *replaced* the Internet for some people. < 1299911422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It literally does everything but packet switching. < 1299911426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is fucking scary. < 1299911461 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Email? Yep. IM? Yep. Usenet...sorta? Yep. Social networking? Yep. Casual games? Yep. ...) < 1299911656 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How very depressing. < 1299911669 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet I find myself spending maybe 10 minutes on Facebook a day. < 1299911691 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only really got one to shut people up. < 1299911721 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, well, I suppose I'm *logged in* 24/7. Logged in via Jabber and all that. :P < 1299911750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had one, but never ever ever used it, and then one day I noticed that occasionally people actually noticed it existed, so I deleted it. < 1299911765 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAICT this doesn't bother anyone because I'm boring anyway. < 1299911774 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. The Simpsons has been running for *21 freaking seasons*. < 1299911796 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And is almost exactly as old as I am. < 1299911837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And almost as unfunny HAHAAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAhem. < 1299911856 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: For the first, oh, 9 seasons, it was brilliant. < 1299911861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1299911867 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus present tense. < 1299911908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we must conclude that pikhq_ was hilarious as a child. < 1299911926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAHAHA < 1299911930 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of COURSE < 1299911936 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correlation! < 1299911937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(picking on innocents//=my favourite pasttime) < 1299911940 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1299911940 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | < 1299911941 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >\ < 1299911943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya: IT'S CAUSATION! < 1299911964 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... If The Simpsons ends, do I die? < 1299911964 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299911975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1299911984 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: it shall be the end of you < 1299911987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, slightly offset. < 1299911992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299911993 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, after all, not EXACTLY as old as you. < 1299911997 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299912002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: BETTER GIVE MONEY TO RUPERT MURDOCH. < 1299912026 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if I can just make The Simpsons about as likely to end as, say, Superman comics, I'll be immortal? < 1299912031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm death, or money to murdoch. decisions, decisions. < 1299912043 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :death to murdoch? < 1299912066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, always with his win-win options. < 1299912107 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Step one will have to be death to Murdoch. If The Simpsons gets genuinely popular again, rather than carrying on on inertia, then it's fucked with Murdoch at the helm. < 1299912140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: note that as the Simpsons gets shittier, so will you. < 1299912141 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'night all < 1299912158 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: RodgerTheGreat < 1299912158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if "The Simpsons" gets televised weekly and it's just a pile of sludge steaming for half an hour... that's what you will be. < 1299912177 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Which, again, is why I must bring death to Murdoch. < 1299912186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: note that matt groening is still mortal. < 1299912199 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck. < 1299912218 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then I'll have to make Groening immortal somehow. < 1299912221 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: (his life depends on, believe it or not, Family Guy.) < 1299912228 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not worth it. < 1299912229 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must do a great many terrible things to stay alive. < 1299912230 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299912257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: and Seth MacFarlane depends on goatse. < 1299912257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ < 1299912269 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, Seth MacFarlane is immortal! < 1299912275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait i'm pretty sure matt groening is older than family guy < 1299912282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: offsets. < 1299912295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :matt groening will die [the difference] before family guy ends. < 1299912309 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would also suggest Family Guy will never end, so Groening is immortal. < 1299912328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: < 1299912333 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Memes do not die. < 1299912333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not dead which can eternal lie, < 1299912342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with strange aeons, even Seth MacFarlane can get sick of the sound of his own voice. < 1299912345 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did someone say memes? < 1299912353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that guy who was born the same day as mickey mouse truly has it made. < 1299912355 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LMAO < 1299912378 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh, dear God, he will probably outlast the heat death of the Universe. < 1299912388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1299912388 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all atoms end < 1299912391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there will only be mickey mouse. < 1299912395 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :staring. in the void. < 1299912396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watching. < 1299912397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1299912398 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waiting. < 1299912405 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...for his copyright to expire < 1299912410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until his copyright _finally_ expi...dammit < 1299912428 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then he said, let there be light. And there was light, and he saw that it was good. < 1299912437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :D < 1299912438 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's not the first time we've done that meme < 1299912457 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, Mickey Mouse will need humans around to extend copyright. < 1299912460 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I approve of this Mickeymouseology. < 1299912677 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll become a mickeymousetian if you set up the mickeymousefunhouse. < 1299912740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds slightly paedophilic. < 1299912778 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saint Pedobear approves. < 1299912814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i need to figure out how to enable bochs' debugger. this is ridiculous. < 1299912828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sanctus Paedobarius < 1299912873 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SANCTVS PAEDOBARIVS, you mean. < 1299912889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: i don't think church latin is that capital intensive < 1299912893 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION disbelieves in lower-case Latin < 1299912919 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I care not. < 1299912927 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church Latin is blasphemy. < 1299912945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is molestation, doesn't stop 'em! < 1299912969 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSSUM VIDERE OMNIA < 1299912972 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure the bible outlaws molestation anywhere < 1299912974 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the formation of the last word wrong < 1299912975 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure < 1299912979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh. it's ok then! < 1299912990 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It outlaws sexual activity outside of marriage. < 1299912999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1299913001 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I passed latin 1 with a 60. That's how good at it I was. < 1299913012 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marriage at birth is entirely permissible, however. < 1299913015 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as it wasn't latin 60 with a 1 < 1299913022 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh < 1299913045 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the Catholic church mandates celibacy in its clergy. < 1299913046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(void in regions where lower characters are better) < 1299913053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*grades < 1299913131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya: i think OMNIA is perfectly appropriate plural neuter accusative < 1299913155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether that is the form you intended, i cannot say < 1299913182 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems good I guess < 1299913189 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, POSSVM. < 1299913191 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no U. < 1299913195 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is only V. < 1299913202 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I learned church latin :< < 1299913212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BLASPHEMER < 1299913220 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not canonical! < 1299913221 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it < 1299913225 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha < 1299913229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, elliott. < 1299913233 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wareya: That's about as valid as learning txt nglsh. < 1299913238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's good. it's funny!1 < 1299913240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*funny!! < 1299913254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/ads/finland.png < 1299913255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELEVEN < 1299913260 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION especially "loves" the bit where they pronounce Latin using Italian pronunciation rules. < 1299913284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(relevant fodder for oerjan) < 1299913347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ï hävë nö ïdëä whät ÿöü ärë tälkïng äböüt < 1299913425 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ï ẗöö ẅöüld lïkë ẗö knöẅ ẗḧäẗ. < 1299913534 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, bochs is the worst. < 1299913618 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1299913736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION compiles bochs < 1299913742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the worst. < 1299913768 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1299914254 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172176.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1299914800 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :APNIC Depletion predicted 3rd June (Huston). I recall when 3rd June was predicted APNIC deplation date. < 1299914807 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*IANA depletion date. < 1299915138 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1299915294 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : how so? < 1299915312 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299915313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: its built in debugger flags syntax error with no info on almost any input, and the inputs that do work don't give me anything helpful like, say, the line _my_ code executed, not the bios < 1299915325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the stack trace was just a bunch of seemingly-random hexs, not related to my program locations.) < 1299915339 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also even though i specify -q it still brings up a menu when it starts :) < 1299915419 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's very very simple, the debugger < 1299915426 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1299915433 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple in the retarded sense, I guess < 1299915484 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still find it more useful than no debugger, and I've decided not to complain about crappy debuggers but be happy about the luxury of a debugger even existing < 1299915606 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I would, except I literally can't figure out how to do the simplest task < 1299915628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i miss perlnomic :( < 1299915642 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that could just be you being stupid though < 1299915661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: quite possibly < 1299916387 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... *What the hell George Lucas*. < 1299916400 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know the cantina scene in "A New Hope"? < 1299916409 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That genre of music, in-universe, is called "jizz". < 1299916417 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am *not* fucking kidding. < 1299916451 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next time you see it, think of it as George Lucas jizzing in your living room < 1299916732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: yeah :D < 1299916799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1299916800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1299916834 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's *still* less embarrassing than the Holiday Special. < 1299916995 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know it's bad when it makes its actors start doing crack. < 1299917013 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, cocaine. Not crack cocaine. < 1299917221 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299917244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello Phantom_Hoover, i've not slept again, prepare for criticism < 1299917279 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION dives for cover < 1299918497 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299918648 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1299918876 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Database terminology is so colorful: "If the primary server fails and then immediately restarts, you must have a mechanism for informing it that it is no longer the primary. This is sometimes known as STONITH (Shoot the Other Node In The Head), which is necessary to avoid situations where both systems think they are the primary, which will lead to confusion and ultimately data loss." < 1299919096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299919159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1299919165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do tracks/sectors/heads start from 0 or 1 < 1299919168 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in int13h < 1299919170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(olsner :P) < 1299919474 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299919556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the cylinder and head values are 0-based, but the sector count starts from 1. < 1299919572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Block_Addressing#CHS_conversion seems to agree. < 1299919685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: THAT'S LOGICAL! < 1299919711 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, it works now :) < 1299919769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you *could* use the LBA version -- http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-0708.htm -- though constructing that data structure for the address would probably cost more bytes. < 1299919778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you need disk reading for? < 1299919833 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Boot sectory. < 1299919847 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I just want something that loads some kilobytes of kernel and jumps to it. It seems to be working. < 1299919855 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Decided the best break from a Forth bootsector is a Forth OS.) < 1299919869 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It even makes a nice little | / - \ spinner while it loads, too! < 1299919878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And on real hardware you might even see that for half a second! < 1299919895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got tired of sticking everything into 510 bytes, I see. < 1299919950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it can be... frustrating < 1299919975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 45 0000003D 64C70600007C0F mov word [fs:0], vgachar('|') < 1299919980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That instruction; it is uncomfortably long. < 1299920065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION turns on a20 using the bios, because does anything NOT support that? < 1299920092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segment override prefix (64h), opcode (C7h), modrm byte for operand (06h), 16-bit offset (0000h) and data (7C0Fh)... they do add up. < 1299920153 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you happened to have bx or si or di 0 at that point, "mov word [fs:di], ..." would be shorter. But I guess they most likely hold real values. < 1299920235 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On MIPS you could use r0, the best register of them all. (It's hardwired to have the value 0.) < 1299920329 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1299920424 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-1-78.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299920446 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the assembler pseudo-op "li r8, 0x1234" is internally encoded as "ori r8, r0, 0x1234" or some such. < 1299920465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you happened to have bx or si or di 0 at that point, "mov word [fs:di], ..." would be shorter. But I guess they most likely hold real values. < 1299920477 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think si/di are free, it's just a boot sector. But it's tiny, so I don't really care that much :P < 1299920485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r0, impressive. < 1299920491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we get a register for every word? < 1299921667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: do you know japanese yet < 1299921685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no, been a bit busy not sleeping and such, i plan to figure out how to operate amazon with no cognition today < 1299921697 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose that would let me purchase book things that could be helpful < 1299921698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1299921700 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1299921705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do keys do things when you press them < 1299921707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::so confusing: < 1299921724 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything always is < 1299921838 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are the things, oklopol. < 1299922085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1299922335 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172176.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1299922349 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no things atm < 1299922359 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except learning japanese, and reading a paper < 1299922366 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very slowly < 1299922368 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sleeping a lot < 1299922377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general lazinessness < 1299922390 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an exam on monday tho so will have to work a few hours at some point < 1299922469 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and U? < 1299922477 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm oh right this channel exists? < 1299922482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1299922486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm like < 1299922488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sitting here < 1299922489 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm asking you what the things is < 1299922493 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't had much sleep. in fact, any < 1299922495 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if you knew. < 1299922497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:45:10 Out of curiosity, what should happen if a Funge-98 IP were to hit the > on the line ";>#;"? (Quotes not part of the line, obviously.) < 1299922498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh a puzl. < 1299922518 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now does # skip over ; or not, lemme check funge < 1299922530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1299922531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does not. < 1299922536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so the > goes onto the # < 1299922539 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that goes on to the ; < 1299922541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which wraps around to the ; < 1299922545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it all repeats again < 1299922548 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: FUCKIN' NOTHIN' < 1299922553 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a whole lotta nothing < 1299922553 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# is what? < 1299922563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ip <- ip + delta < 1299922567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pos I guess < 1299922571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: _not_ explicitly wrapping < 1299922580 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have "a#" on a line, it goes to a, because # moves to the space to the right of it < 1299922582 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and _that_ wraps < 1299922609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1299922612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;>#; < 1299922616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the # moves us into the _space_ < 1299922618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we hit the first one < 1299922622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the second one < 1299922624 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the < 1299922624 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1299922626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :total interp lockup < 1299922727 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:36:20 ais523, there? < 1299922728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:36:29 ais523, seems c-intercal was added to portage(!) < 1299922728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder how hideously out of date it is now < 1299922733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: logreading, i am also logreading < 1299922744 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299922812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so any plans for december? < 1299922903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is all...what's december, right now < 1299923231 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think someone on RW is claiming to have worked out how to factorise numbers very quickly. < 1299923246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:29:30 GregorR: computers are turing complete, and 0..2^64-1 is an infinite set < 1299923246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:29:57 By what stretch of the imagination is 0..2^64-1 an infinite set? < 1299923247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:30:15 GregorR: it's reeeeeally big < 1299923248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:30:19 :P < 1299923249 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wat < 1299923254 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's worse, it's the Microsoft fanboy. < 1299923261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link < 1299923263 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Saloon_bar#Friday_conundrum < 1299923272 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scared < 1299923283 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He doesn't actually give any evidence or even any indication how fast it is, though. < 1299923286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, that's a joke/hypothetical. < 1299923300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refuse to provide any more justification for this obvious fact than "Adrian Chen". < 1299923315 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1299923319 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OK. < 1299923341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Additional evidence: Nobody actually asks actual dilemma-related questions in that way. < 1299923360 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes OK. < 1299923437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Who blocked pi. < 1299923462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also this SusanG person talks way too much. < 1299923468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And has an irritatingly non-textual signature. < 1299923470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I choose to dislike her. < 1299923475 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea; it's almost certainly one of RW's many frivolous blocks. < 1299923485 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, she's one of the rabider antitheists on RW. < 1299923511 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I won't comment on any LQT page. No matter how much I care about the subject. I think it's terrible as it stands." < 1299923515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least there's that. < 1299923516 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"All religious people are morons" level. < 1299923528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/3/3b/Blue2pwnage.png < 1299923531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ENJOY YOUR BLOCK < 1299923538 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All 30 seconds of it. < 1299923543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the past. < 1299923581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I also like how nobody responded to that factoring thing with an even vaguely ethical response. < 1299923600 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Release it publicly? < 1299923615 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean at the top level. < 1299923616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) Tell me. 2) Exploit it for every penny you can. DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 15:57, 11 March 2011 (UTC) < 1299923626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so there's exactly one. < 1299923631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER. < 1299923690 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3455095/Extreme-supermoon-said-to-set-Earth-up-for-weather-chaos.html < 1299923701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, Phantom_Hoover sucks, i'm coding more os < 1299923703 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Sun continues to uphold journalistic standards. < 1299923716 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Some amateur scientists warn it could trigger extreme conditions all over the world, from earthquakes to tsunamis.]] < 1299923718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some amateur scientists warn it could trigger extreme conditions all over the world, from earthquakes to tsunamis." < 1299923718 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEST LINE EVER < 1299923720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amateur scientists < 1299923721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1299923734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It will cause them RETROACTIVELY < 1299923739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE MOON IS MAGIC AND DEFIES TIME. < 1299923751 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh Christ, look at the comments. < 1299923753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "Published: 09 Mar 2011" < 1299923756 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE SUN: Ahead of the curve. < 1299923760 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Oh Dear. Looks like John Kettley should have listened to his physics teacher. Quakes rock Japan news just in. Gravitational force increases inversely by the square of the distance. Half the distance, and you quadruple the force between those two objects. Of course the moon can cause earthquakes and tsunamis!! The force between earth and the moon can move billions of tons of water, and the earth's mantle too!!]] < 1299923780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Coo another excuse for them to hike petrol prices up, they don't need decent excuses you know." < 1299923790 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if it gets too close the PM will invent a tax for us looking at it" < 1299923803 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tell the moon not to stop too close as it might get a parking ticket" < 1299923806 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god, the right wing, it hurts. < 1299923809 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. < 1299923831 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Of course a planet moving closer to Earth can cause an earth quake, what would a weather man know. < 1299923831 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They only get it right now because of satellite coverage, I can predict my own weather by watching live satellite imagery.]] < 1299923833 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh no, stock pile endless cans of spam, panic buy bread and milk, nail crooked bits of wood across the doors and windows to keep out the mutant zombies, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE......... < 1299923834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe nothing at all will happen, and I can get on and watch Emmerdale..." < 1299923834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stockpiling food for fear of zombies, and watching Emmerdale: two equally bad situations. < 1299923842 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT WOULD A WEATHER MAN KNOW < 1299923855 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Sarcasm, I *think*. < 1299923859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm very unsure. < 1299923868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, laugh at my hee-larious Emmerdale quip. < 1299923876 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahahahahaha < 1299923887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"LOL the scientists say it's moving several metres a year away from us, and now they say it's the closest in 18 years? okay then, the scary thing is, that a repeat of the 2004 tsunami could happen again." < 1299923897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The last time Haleys comet passed by the Earth it rendered me impotent for years,luckily Viagra fixed it and now the wife is over the moon !." < 1299923918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Well I blame the Government LOL!" "I blame immigrants." ;; first one probably joke, second one joke < 1299923925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Well personally I blame the "Global warming folks". Even George Bush knew they were nutters and now they have caused the moon to collide with Mars......Oops, sorry! I mean Earth. What are we to do? I have the answer. Let's put up some more of those wind-turbines. Perhaps we can blow it of course at the last minute. < 1299923925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope you will excuse me now as I have to return to the real world." < 1299923931 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSVO real world. < 1299923954 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the 'S' stand for in that? < 1299923958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, rightl. < 1299923959 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some. < 1299923960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The moons gravity does have an effect on magma under the earth, just like the effect on water it is being pulled, therefore one of a possible number of causes of earth quakes." < 1299923973 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we will get taxed for increased flood risks" < 1299923977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"could we be taxed for this? ...like is it our fault in any way" < 1299923984 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAXES TAXES TAXES < 1299923991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Liberals will try and conjur another tax out of this." ;; TAXES < 1299923996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oklopol: so any plans for december?" no < 1299924000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"They've missed an oppotunity to blame it on global warming there" ;; CLIMATE CHANGE < 1299924002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Oh. So you lied. < 1299924023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What's the good news, well if it happens as stated, there is nothing we can do about it, we will probably be told it is down to global warming, but, no matter what happens to this world, it' all down to NATURE, only nature will decide what will or will not happen, those who keep shouting that humans are causing the CO2 causing Global Warming are talking rubbish, one Volcanic eruption covers the world in many gases, including CO2, when Krakatoa e < 1299924023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xploded early in the 1800s, according to records, some of those gases were still in the atmosphere in 1960, since then we have had many volcanic eruptions, Iceland, Hawaii, and the ring of fire, only nature will decide in most cases whether we live or die." ;; WHAT < 1299924055 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It probably also means that people will start going mental. The human body is made up of 70% water after all..." ;; NO, JUST NO < 1299924083 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Maxnex.. No green tax but if its too close then It will be subject to Londons congestion charge!" ;; FFF < 1299924095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a wonder the government or the EUC has not asked the tax payers for an additional "green" tax on this. < 1299924097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ffs < 1299924104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up about taxes and global warming you shitpots < 1299924107 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's at times like this you wonder how anyone with the slightest hint of rationality doesn't go around punching people. < 1299924117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good question, right now it's because i'm tired < 1299924120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does tomorrow sound? < 1299924136 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you know. that thing. < 1299924176 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/g1r53/it_is_possible_to_translate_any_turing_machine/ < 1299924184 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first comment is gold. < 1299924193 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN MY DAY < 1299924201 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm using best ordering) < 1299924210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Something tells me that Turing would have been very fond of Wang had he lived into the 1960's..." < 1299924211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HURF DURF < 1299924216 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Which is the top comment for you? < 1299924220 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the latter. < 1299924230 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Try setting the sorting to best, it's quite good. < 1299924235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although RANDALL MUNROE made it so it sucks. < 1299924243 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O NOES < 1299924244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Doesn't that involve solving the halting problem? Isn't that impossible?" ;; hey, i've lost the ability to rage at this < 1299924256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Linked page says “[the halting problem] is highly undecidable” (emphasis mine). Can anyone explain to me what highly means, in that context? Isn’t a problem either decidable or undecidable?" IT'S LIQUIDS!!! < 1299924269 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's just a misunderstanding and jesus I really need to get going. < 1299924277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get going for what, DEATH?? < 1299924280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we all get going for death. < 1299924312 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god j_random_idiot has spoken again. < 1299924316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ojooojoijojiwerwerwerefwefwefwefjooijoijoifefwefewwefwewefojiijjiooijwfewefiojojiwefweiojjiwefewfjiojiowefwefjoiowefoijoiweffweojiojiwfewfejiowefojiwefojiwfeoijojiwfewefojioijwefioi < 1299924320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ohgod]h;'juklo\p[p]\ < 1299924320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ < 1299924328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no replies for me yet < 1299924341 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNINFORMED RUDENESS < 1299924347 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. that one < 1299924351 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my reply thread is better < 1299924358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g0d5g/breaking_news_html5css3_is_turing_complete/c1ker31 < 1299924363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: fun game: try and find any meaning in this comment < 1299924376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Cook is the one who proved /rule 110/ TC.) < 1299924384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I almost googled "Cook html css turing".) < 1299924445 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So do I continue goading him into saying "I daresay I know more about this than ais" and then pounce? < 1299924455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1299924457 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww. < 1299924466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a childish waste of time, even i've abandoned that alley since he didn't call me out on it :) < 1299924480 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd just stop bothering, i've totally got it covered by way of him ignoring me < 1299924499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oklopol: Oh. So you lied." <<< i did? < 1299924504 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yep. < 1299924506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: and forgot. < 1299924550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: 04:48:58. < 1299924556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(clog time) < 1299924637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: :) < 1299924740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose i didn't make it a plan, but assumed i'll just happen to do it anyway? < 1299924750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it btw? < 1299924760 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it was a plan. and for it to work, you have to remember. < 1299924771 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: 2007 < 1299924772 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to rape you so you won't win the 50 pounds? < 1299924782 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1299924803 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to... kill you so you won't win the 50 pounds? < 1299924807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1299924816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no other ideas. < 1299924836 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1299924839 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i blame the tv < 1299924849 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you will remember, on the day. and it will be glorious. < 1299924975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit qbasic has a repl < 1299924978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did fizzie never tell me. < 1299925011 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299925401 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299925809 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[misinformation about drugs kills infinitely more people than drugs themselves.]] < 1299925819 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When that's in your opening line... < 1299925876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INFINITELY more? < 1299925886 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: When that's in your opening line what :P < 1299925917 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I severely question the sensibility of the rest of the essay. < 1299925923 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INFINITELY! < 1299925925 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVERYONE IS DEAD < 1299926115 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299926666 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1299926670 0 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1299926690 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299926695 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1299927874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299928653 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1299928851 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1299928866 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-79.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299928899 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Anywho, I actually wanted an ereader /primarily/ for reading. For anything else it wouldn't be worthwhile. < 1299929029 0 :aloril_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1299929156 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172176.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1299929890 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1299930481 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1299930759 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299930934 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299931380 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1299931772 0 :cheater00!~cheater@g228063128.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1299931882 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1299931941 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181133159.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1299932054 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299932115 0 :aloril!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299932694 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1299933293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is my husband. His name is the Berlin Wall and he was born on August 13, 1961. I expect you've heard of him; he is quite a celebrity. He lives in Berlin. < 1299933295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to work in a pharmacy. Now I own a museum. My husband's job was to divide East and West Berlin. He is retired now." < 1299933298 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual quote. < 1299933337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It was very much a long distance romance as neither of us likes to travel." < 1299933538 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: THESE THINGS ARE NOT THINGS THAT I AM MAKING UP < 1299933571 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect she is joking to at least a degree. < 1299933592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: She changed her last name to Berliner-Mauer (Berlin Wall) after getting married to it. < 1299933593 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. < 1299933596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.berlinermauer.se/) < 1299933616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Animism is the belief that inanimate objects are sentient beings, i.e. they have intelligence, feelings, and are able to communicate. Animism is the foundation of objectum-sexuality. My belief in Animism is that artifacts (objects) have the same level of awareness as human beings. I don’t see them as superior beings, which is claimed in some encyclopedias and other literature. That I do NOT believe in. I see artifacts as equal to human beings, < 1299933616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : animals and plants." < 1299933636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We even made it through the terrible disaster of November 9, 1989, when my husband was subjected to frenzied attacks by a mob." < 1299933640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the best thing ever. < 1299933640 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...OK, she's nuts. < 1299933648 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hilariously so. < 1299933657 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Berlin Wall - Brandenburger Tor - 1989 and this will be the ONLY such picture on my site. I hate to see this disaster." < 1299934131 0 :variable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1299934142 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : lol < 1299934232 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-1-78.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299934345 0 :MigoMipo__!~John@84-217-1-78.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299934414 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1299934451 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaking news: pokemon creator died in earthquake < 1299934579 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1299934590 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@184.56.125.91.rb3.adsl.brightview.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299934601 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1299934639 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elliott: any progress on the Forth? < 1299934675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic: Yes, I'm taking a break from it to write an OS with significantly more than 510 bytes to it :-) < 1299934686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least I think I know how I'd do a compiler compactly with quite some space left over. < 1299934866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic: Any progress with yours? < 1299934948 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I've been ill so I've had a rough week. Planning to start again on Monday. < 1299935066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, ok. Hope you're feeling better soon etc. < 1299935072 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My MSP430 devboard hasn't arrived yet anyway. I've bought another couple of devboards too. It's amazing how many are under £10 on eBay. < 1299935095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That interpreter word you wrote -- how do you plan to actually execute it? Running it through the compiler (written in asm)? < 1299935097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precompiling it? < 1299935103 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's only toothache :-) At least that's what my girlfriend tells me. < 1299935109 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precompile it by hand < 1299935124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I just have to think of the worst possible thing a toothache could be. < 1299935140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless I'm seriously mistaken, toothaches can't be cancerous, so logic dictates that you're probably fine. < 1299935148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow I should sleep. < 1299935190 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is toothache, but with a jaw infection. I tried about a dozen different things but nothing killed the pain :-( < 1299935202 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you could get septicaemia from an abcess. < 1299935212 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic: What PH said! < 1299935213 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*abscess < 1299935222 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet you're feeling better already. < 1299935233 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, I swear I typed that before it turned out that was basically what you have. < 1299935243 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the abscess part. < 1299935271 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1299935296 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes feeling better. Most of the week I was trying to sleep alway the pain. Now I'm on a couple of antibiotics and painkillers it's not so bad :-) < 1299935305 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can concentrate again! ;-) < 1299935353 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-55-212.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1299935353 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1299935353 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1299935491 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, but you could have died the death of TUTANKHAMEN! < 1299935656 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thankfully I didn't. I still have work to do. < 1299935684 0 :MigoMipo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299935774 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-1-78.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299937057 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1299938957 0 :cpressey!~cpressey@conference/pycon/x-kumnbpkjjhcsqggp JOIN :#esoteric < 1299939004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm starting to think all programming language criticism boils down to "these two things should be next to each other, but aren't" < 1299939060 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem of course is that there are always multiple ways to sensible co-locate things < 1299939066 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sensibly < 1299939131 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sort of leads to the idea of storing the program in a database, and reading/editing it under various views < 1299939146 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that'll never work < 1299939176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: like TUNES to the max < 1299939188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TUNES stores all the objects in fancy databases :P < 1299939195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just needs the code too < 1299939258 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly -- it'll never work ;) < 1299939310 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guido's talking about stuff, something about threads and callbacks, i'm not paying attention < 1299939320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, anti-TUNES slander. < 1299939325 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I get to swat people for that. < 1299939346 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tunes is a useful, not existent, system < 1299939354 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*non-existent? < 1299939361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299939376 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, which two things? < 1299939393 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hey, @ matches up with TUNES in almost every aspect in which TUNES has a solid vision, so clearly that's doomed too < 1299939400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ... < 1299939404 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@209.150.235.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299939418 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what do you mean by "these two things should be beside each other"? < 1299939447 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: for some two things x and y < 1299939461 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how should they be beside each other? < 1299939501 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: never mind < 1299939510 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO I WANT TO KNOW < 1299939527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: program more. you'll figure it out < 1299939689 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "program" i mean, make changes to >20KLoc programs < 1299939710 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing little elegant programs in scheme doesn't count < 1299939742 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1299939791 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1299939794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Making changes to >20 kloc programs doesn't sound like my idea of fun. < 1299939804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless they're written in Haskell maybe.) < 1299939817 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But then it's probably a nuclear reactor if it's that long, and I don't want to touch one of them.) < 1299939824 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299939839 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1299939917 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it usually isn't fun < 1299939932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the programming language criticism < 1299940116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'd agree if you said that shallow criticism came down to that. At least I don't think you can argue asm vs. Haskell based on things being beside. < 1299940209 0 :elliott_!~elliott@91.105.126.112 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299940209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1299940213 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure they aren't just more abstract "things" that you want beside in that case. but i haven't thought about it much < 1299940233 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/presentations/90/ looks somewhat interesting < 1299940299 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: In entirely the wrong way, perhaps. < 1299940312 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is a good thing! Only the best ideas survive the python-dev gauntlet!" < 1299940316 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the lowest-common-denominator ones. < 1299940357 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks like it could be interesting, because they are actually listing facts < 1299940376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well obviously i wouldn't be going to it to agree with that message. rather, to get a look into their thought/selection process. < 1299940409 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1299940412 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"they rejected *that*? for *that* reason? interesting..." < 1299940437 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well hey, Guido removed fold because "it confuses me and for loops are better". < 1299940441 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the very least it will be entertaining. < 1299940465 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I still can't believe he didn't know that TCO != TRE.) < 1299940520 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what those mean either < 1299940550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :total cost of ownership and thyroid response element < 1299940554 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1299940555 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1299940559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299940564 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299940570 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tail-call optimisation and tail recursion elimination < 1299940575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1299940576 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acronyms don't matter, knowing that the latter != the former does < 1299940586 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guido thought that TCO was useless because "you can just use a for loop" < 1299940590 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is true for TRE only, ofc < 1299940609 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299940639 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all python idiots think that < 1299940677 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty ridiculous argument, yes < 1299940693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure it's because he's confusing the terms though < 1299940703 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it was < 1299940705 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: in the next post he was like < 1299940712 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"o, i see, so tco is where you do MUTUAL things < 1299940715 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[shows example of mutual recursion] < 1299940723 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was skooled on this, didn't know, lol, not that i'm gonna change my mind" < 1299940727 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :truly embarrassing < 1299940738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. okay. < 1299940806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Producing such code instead of a standard call sequence is called tail call elimination, or tail call optimization. < 1299940808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1299940811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh call < 1299940815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore that, was a bit too hasty < 1299940818 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172176.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1299940855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tail recursion elimination can't really be misunderstood, but tail call optimization sounds a bit more ambiguous < 1299940872 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. < 1299940877 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well whatevs < 1299940924 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i like r5rs' solution to this, just says "when you do tail calls, the implementation has to behave exactly like it has an infinite stack" :D < 1299940947 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also its approach to memory management is "Scheme is defined assuming infinite memory, and objects are never freed, you can optimise that if you want tho" < 1299941021 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume that's always the case in high-level languages? erm, except python. and probably others < 1299941051 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python doesn't even have a spec :P < 1299941056 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1299941059 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno about haskell, i think it's too abstract to even talk about memory ;D < 1299941072 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainlyw < 1299941076 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but r5rs' wording is a bit more blunt about it than i would expect most others to be < 1299941077 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-w < 1299941114 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a course on ml and hol soon btw. if you still care about that stuff. < 1299941117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1299941125 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you care, that may be almost interesting news :) < 1299941137 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ml doesn't really have much to do with hol, but yeah sure < 1299941139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then i'll learn to love it < 1299941142 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't actually used hol < 1299941149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can use hol to prove ml programs correct < 1299941149 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a theorem prover, so yeah < 1299941156 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1299941179 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML's a decent language, it has some warts and it's not as overall coherent as Haskell, but some parts are nicer. < 1299941186 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah maybe i should've said just hol < 1299941187 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hol is cool because every theorem prover is cool :) < 1299941200 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1299941407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so gonna prove that something's true < 1299941484 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i prefer proving things that are false. < 1299941531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have an eye for them challenges right < 1299941787 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wut < 1299942274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :them challenges being the provings of them false things < 1299942358 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-193-93.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299942373 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1299942421 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: rite < 1299942913 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: you there? < 1299943786 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1299943828 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1299945554 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delivery to the following recipient has been delayed: < 1299945555 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : charlesap@[redacted] < 1299945555 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Message will be retried for 2 more day(s) < 1299945556 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear. < 1299945591 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Pingol. < 1299945956 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299945958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1299945958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299946053 0 :Zuu_!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1299946055 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1299946099 0 :Zuu_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Zuu < 1299946964 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lady Gaga's approach to clothing seems like hacking to me." --rms < 1299946970 0 :Wamanuz3!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299947138 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1299947166 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299947383 0 :Behold!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1299947488 0 :cheater-!~cheater@e181130125.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1299947503 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1299947586 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1299947587 0 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@209.150.235.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299947712 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1299949506 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172176.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1299949973 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :elliott < 1299949975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1299949975 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1299950180 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1299950257 0 :Behold!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299950348 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1299950488 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | max(X, Y) -> Y. < 1299950613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1299950613 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | ^show cho < 1299950614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot! < 1299950615 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | For programming or not, there is many things discussed in this channel < 1299950913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo? < 1299950957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously. < 1299951012 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1299951112 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever lived next to a microwave and a fridge? it's awesome < 1299951119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, sounds nie < 1299951120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1299951493 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also live on top of an armchair, but i that's probably not at all uncommon < 1299951583 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have, in fact. < 1299951602 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit more problematic living next to a 48" TV in addition to that. < 1299951607 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And several game consoles. < 1299951611 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the space of a dorm room. < 1299951671 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just put the tv on the floor and walk on it PROBLEM SOLVED??? < 1299951688 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No. < 1299951792 0 :cpressey!~cpressey@conference/pycon/x-gxoyqsffomuuqfgr JOIN :#esoteric < 1299951810 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed there is many things discussed here < 1299951824 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :実。 < 1299951832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manifold things < 1299951936 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this environment is making me want to design a production language & that makes me sad < 1299951941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily i leave tomorrow < 1299951946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ESCAPE < 1299951992 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it's not making me want to build a python library, upload it to pypi, and promote it shamelessly < 1299952027 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it sort of is but that's easier to deal with < 1299952055 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: make a binding to haskell, it'll annoy EVERYONE! < 1299952082 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that even mean < 1299952140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i don't know, but it'll upset the pythonistas < 1299952177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess something that lets you write haskell.run_io(haskell.eval("putStrLn").call(Thunk(lambda: haskell.make_string("Hello, world!")))) < 1299952316 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand how people think < 1299952323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: badly < 1299952404 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The goal of the project: [...] 3. Not a goal per se, but I wanted [...] < 1299952411 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanted it, it was a goal < 1299952473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: now we're all stuck in a quote. < 1299952478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by a pythonista, no less. < 1299952531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1299952531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1299952537 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*phew* < 1299952558 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's a misquote and *I'm* buggin' < 1299952570 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The quote problems are NEVR over. < 1299952593 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1299952602 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, you are good. < 1299952645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Python/2.5 <-- Python is a package for Python. < 1299952647 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1299952652 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1299952652 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" " < 1299952662 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :what: < 1299952666 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :— #esoteric < 1299952681 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( Quotes are the least of your problems. < 1299952683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1299952686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I like how it explains Python in depth. < 1299952698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if you liked Python, why not try Python, an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language [...] < 1299952716 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( " ' [ { < < 1299952754 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> } ] ' " ) < 1299952755 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `}' < 1299952804 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) BWAHAHA < 1299952838 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1299952853 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick, you must go back in time! < 1299952877 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can anyone loan me a time machine? < 1299952948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feather isn't done yet, you fool! < 1299953141 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need a language where all parens must be unmatched. This would make annoying-looking code. < 1299953162 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorta kinda like nopol :P < 1299953171 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imah call it ']' < 1299953182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF < 1299953196 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops. < 1299953251 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I make the language, I will paste programs here and wreck unprecedented havoc. < 1299953433 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[]{}<>() would be 8 commands, so ] would be a good BF variant... but i'm going for something more original. < 1299953590 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, apparently being a pythonista causes you to forget that '**' is a workaround for environments where you are not able to depict an actual superscript. < 1299953597 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slides are not such an environmen < 1299953598 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1299953628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299953635 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notation hipster < 1299953727 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1299953888 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, a talk on continuous deployment which didn't really address any of the hard issues about continuous deployment < 1299953913 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"deploy to a few machines first in case theres a regression" was about it < 1299953921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: continuous deployment and continuous integration sound like they should be much better concepts than they are < 1299953931 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking every single fraction of a diff is integrated and deployed < 1299953932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, neither is actually continuous < 1299953938 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you only change one character < 1299953946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ends up integrating half-a-character change < 1299953950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be beautiful and make no sense. < 1299953952 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"frequent integration" doesn't sound sexy enough < 1299953975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that... is... beautiful nonsense < 1299953986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Sorta kinda like nopol :P" toi has that ({} thing < 1299954006 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes. i eagerly await your esolang based on the noise. < 1299954032 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eugh, mistranslated prepositions... "waiting on a friend" < 1299954034 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so about Clue ;D < 1299954043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: um that sounds ~right to me < 1299954066 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gwwmmkmkmkmkgwwwmmmwmmmm < 1299954073 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: really? isn't waiting "on" people what a waiter does? < 1299954084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes. < 1299954096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can definitely wait on an event and/or person < 1299954096 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd generally be more likely to wait *for* a friend < 1299954108 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waiting on your friend means you're on top of your friend, waiting for something < 1299954130 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, didn't know 'on' worked like that too < 1299954134 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think I've seen that < 1299954170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err. < 1299954170 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, "on" can mean "on" sometimes < 1299954174 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is wrong :P < 1299954179 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and you'd generally be more likely to wait *for* a friend < 1299954180 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is funny < 1299954186 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm what? i'm certainly not wrong < 1299954188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh, yeah, i have a commit to do that, but I'm waiting on dfgjiodfg to approve it" < 1299954205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well. yes it's technically correct, it could mean that. no, nobody has ever, or will ever, say that and mean that :) < 1299954260 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well after saying "on top of a friend" a few hundred times, it gets kinda annoying. < 1299954319 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"are you waiting on a table or a shelf btw?" "neither, actually, i'm waiting on a friend" < 1299954483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1299954569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if you can "cheer someone on", in a race, you can naturally also "wait someone on" in a race, waiting can be encouraging < 1299954579 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm not sure wait on a friend is very natural then < 1299954585 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well why not < 1299954613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: should I even bother getting rtk3, or should I just buy rtk1 and rtk3 later if I feel the need? < 1299954615 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"why are you waiting?" "my friend is running a marathon, so we're all waiting him on" "oh, waiting on a friend i see, i'll join ya" < 1299954617 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moneys ;\ < 1299954657 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should write an english a learn it book < 1299954747 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: RTK3 isn't particularly necessary. < 1299954775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Yah, but I save on shipping if I buy it now, so if I'm *likely* to find it useful, I'd like to buy it now ... < 1299954795 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the time you're done with RTK1, you'll be automatically decomposing kanji and memorising them that way, so it's not like you'll be using it for anything more than a list of kanji Heisig felt were important. < 1299954815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: should i maybe buy a golden cape for when i become the king of the universe? < 1299954830 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: NO! < 1299954834 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Only iridium! < 1299954858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright. i'm just wondering since i'm buying a pizza and it's easier to buy those two together than to go to the shop twice < 1299954872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: How long will it take me to be done with RTK1 anyway? :-P That is, define "done". < 1299954887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If "done" by your definition = a few weeks, I'd prefer to get RTK3 now. If it's more like a month or two by your definition, I'll get it later. < 1299954890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If I do at all.) < 1299954900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: will it take me long to finish the pizza btw? would be nice to get to that king stuff as quickly as possible < 1299954913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait why am i doing this < 1299954919 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: why am i doing this? < 1299954921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: SHIPPING COSTS K < 1299954935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bewks are not cheep o'er 'ere. < 1299954977 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Month or two. < 1299955003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rite, i'll just buy rtrkjtkrtjkrtkrtjkrtkjrktjkrjtkrtk11111111111111111111 then < 1299955011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey free shipping if i get it from amazon < 1299955013 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\\\\BEST DAY//// < 1299955024 0 :cpressey!~cpressey@conference/pycon/x-izduftxfcfnsfwsu JOIN :#esoteric < 1299955079 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say I'm waiting for dfgjiodfg to approve it, but *it* is waiting *on* dfgjiodfg's approval < 1299955079 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good ol' dfgjiodfg < 1299955095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it occurs to me that i've never bootstrapped a compiler for a high-level language < 1299955119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: PIXLEY! given a specialiser. < 1299955123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok that doesn't even vaguely count. < 1299955130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int is 12 bytes in python. jeez < 1299955135 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*takes up < 1299955139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares :) < 1299955178 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i was more surprised when i thought it was 12 bits < 1299955178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at the risk of mentioning one thing TOO MUCH in too short a span of days, first quote from http://prog21.dadgum.com/39.html is relevant) < 1299955235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299955252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: what's the good and bad std for snes roms again. istr something like that. so complicated. < 1299955256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is goodsnes the one that's the bads < 1299955328 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pulled in too many different directions now < 1299955343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: like python!! what? < 1299955355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ooh, ooh, bootstrap a compiler for a python subset. to maximise self-hatred. < 1299955371 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GoodSNES is terrible. < 1299955383 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: what's the good one. < 1299955388 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NoIntro. < 1299955435 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: icould skip a step and just hate rpython, it wdoul save time < 1299955442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi non-woking keyboard i missed you < 1299955457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: tinypy is more what i was thinking. < 1299955459 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bootstrapped too. < 1299955491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: hmm, nice, europe vs. usa versions of the same game, that's... so easy to decide :D < 1299955531 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Right_bracket ) < 1299955559 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imah make examples now. < 1299955568 0 :copumpkin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1299955595 0 :GregorOpMonger!~RawIRC@wb-dhcp2-7.wmiscable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299955600 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o GregorOpMonger < 1299955613 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just protecting a scarce resource :P < 1299955622 0 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1299955628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: How big is that torrent of aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the SNES games? :P < 1299955828 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so,the productive suffixes of fans of programming languages: "-ista", "-ist", and "-er" at least < 1299955846 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Something like 8 gigs? < 1299955846 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want there to be a "-nik" but i will be disappointed < 1299955854 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, "Haskellnik" < 1299955876 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chris. did my friend find you? < 1299955907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lord. < 1299955927 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i gather from your statement that you told a friend of yours who is at PyCon that I am at PyCon and that he or she should look for me < 1299955940 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Hmm, I can only find 2.6 gigs... < 1299955946 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gather from your statement she did not < 1299955951 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so I seriously overestimated. < 1299955959 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: http://torrentz.eu/6a74b187e40ef0414b52588eb3d1a36b47f3f97a < 1299955961 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. :p < 1299955966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guh. < 1299955967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No trackers. < 1299955986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Oh, there's this smaller one: http://torrentz.eu/f525add4936c1b11853b5a96247a98961ced6dda but I know not what "(merged)" means there. < 1299955992 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also seederless. < 1299955999 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: does your friend have any interest in esolangs? < 1299956027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: BAND TOGETHER AND OVERTHROW PYCON < 1299956034 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the perfect coup < 1299956039 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ruby is an esolang, right? < 1299956049 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /ragequit < 1299956050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh boy. < 1299956069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO CPRESSEY < 1299956071 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAVING A FUN TIME? < 1299956094 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1299956110 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enjoy your pizza and beer at the tip bof < 1299956113 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bai < 1299956115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun was not expected... i'm surviving, that's all i ask < 1299956118 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: no beer < 1299956124 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to otganizatre < 1299956127 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*organizer < 1299956130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thx < 1299956135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what kind of insanity made you think this was in any way something you could do? < 1299956161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I conclude you got them from a wizard. < 1299956187 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: long story < 1299956197 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: boring! < 1299956202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many kazoos does it involve? < 1299956217 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll probably be attending 2 other conferences this year, both very different -- more academic < 1299956262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hose won't be for work < 1299956264 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Theoretical BDSM" and "The Python-induced Crippling Alcoholism Support Group". < 1299956301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: ;_; < 1299956305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wizardry should be illegal. < 1299956432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optbot: what do you think of wizardry? < 1299956432 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://zem.fi/~fis/cont.png -- none of those look very non-essential to me. Although I'm not quite sure what "Program handler" does. < 1299956627 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh well", I'm sure 20080712 is new enough. < 1299956644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1299956646 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No seeders. < 1299956653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woe's me. < 1299956724 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've noticed that when i have irssi running, when a talk gets dry, i can't concentrate on it < 1299956740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well most of these could be compressed to 10 minutes anyway < 1299956806 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1299956812 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an idea for an esolang < 1299956827 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomgz! < 1299956839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the sky? blue. < 1299956890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. < 1299956892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg clone http://hg.python.org/cpython/ < 1299956896 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1299956900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why. < 1299956902 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why, cpressey, why. < 1299956924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make random changes to it < 1299956934 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1299956938 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to saturate the network < 1299956947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: please tell me you're going to crash some ad-hoc meetup where they're sharing code and go all "oh this doesn't work in my cpython" < 1299956948 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a plausibly innocent act < 1299956953 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's because you've added a prng to every damn function < 1299956961 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nothing does what it's supposed to any more < 1299956978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* ONE DAY i'll go to python conferences ON MY VERY OWN and prank them all. < 1299956982 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't have that in mind but i will admit it is brilliant < 1299957032 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i installed the included batteries backwards" < 1299957036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299957052 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the re module? yeah, a bunch of functions for Religious Education... this _is_ a library after all < 1299957085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"well what did you *expect* 2.0 + 2.0 to give apart from 5? this is floating point you know, it's imprecise!" < 1299957113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: WHY ARE YOU THE BAD < 1299957122 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :floating point gonna float < 1299957163 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, is optbot a bot < 1299957164 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: as a toggle marker < 1299957171 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it might be fizzie < 1299957173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: um yes. he used to be here a while back. < 1299957175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i revived him. < 1299957177 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1299957180 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it sets the topic every 6 hours < 1299957183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also when you say "optbot!" < 1299957184 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it is not ransom < 1299957188 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also replies to mentions of its name. < 1299957194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all messages come from random log entries < 1299957203 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was what inspired fungot's babble generator. < 1299957203 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: a yucca clone might be nice to them. < 1299957227 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it written in? < 1299957236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: um. < 1299957239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be ruby. < 1299957243 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this time it's... python BUT < 1299957245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a DEFENCE < 1299957254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to think of the language most amusingly unsuited to the task at hand < 1299957261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rejected Fortran and J for just being WAY TOO MUCH OF A PAIN < 1299957265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I picked the next best thing, Python < 1299957350 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think cpressey is still judging me. < 1299957359 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ett's ssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee if mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmy hg clone makes any progres by time this tkis over < 1299957373 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1299957378 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-150-95.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299957380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your keyboard. it's impressive. < 1299957386 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you should come here, give talk on it < 1299957404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1299957410 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect the keyboard driver for this laptop in ubuntu is not perfect < 1299957411 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def random_line(): < 1299957412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : line = random.choice(lines) < 1299957412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return re.sub(r'^[a-zA-Z\\[\]\\`_^{|}][a-zA-Z0-9\\[\]\\`_^{|}]+:\s+', '', line) < 1299957413 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pythonic. < 1299957631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gmail's keyboard shortcuts are awesome. < 1299957667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> f = { 2.0: 'k' } < 1299957667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> f[2.0] < 1299957667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'k' < 1299957671 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pythonic < 1299957705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1299957946 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f[2] is also 'k' < 1299958048 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, i have cpython src now < 1299958056 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :configuring and building this puppppp < 1299958061 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pupppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp < 1299958067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*puppy < 1299958144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a python->pixley compiler!!198379328 < 1299958150 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o oerjan < 1299958158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er. < 1299958158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o GregorOpMonger < 1299958163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1299958169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: INJUSTICE < 1299958170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAN OERJAN < 1299958184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o Gregor < 1299958200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o oerjan < 1299958208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that got a little out of hand. < 1299958210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Y U NO FUN? < 1299958219 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glumpwhenge < 1299958227 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what < 1299958241 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardwire my monkeypatch < 1299958247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1299958260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: quick, change the lexer to parse { as INDENT and } as DEDENT < 1299958263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ignore whitespace < 1299958281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then add a semicolon at the end of the statement rule < 1299958356 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python 3.3a0 (default:9e70e818d434, Mar 12 2011, 14:13:12) < 1299958356 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[GCC 4.4.3] on linux2 < 1299958359 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"woot" < 1299958400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking through source dir for interesting source file to modify < 1299958424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: excuse me i just gave you the best ideas? < 1299958434 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also swap [] and (), just because. < 1299958445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if hello == 4: { < 1299958454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : print["good morning", "abc"(2)]; < 1299958458 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print["goodbye"];}; < 1299958465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ten times better already < 1299958491 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, fine. syntax. < 1299958509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes. the most boring part of an esolang. < 1299958515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(&#&)@^ have to modify both the grammar and the parser??? < 1299958518 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also the easiest, and who wants to waste time on python < 1299958520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I doubt it < 1299958525 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's what it says < 1299958536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1299958538 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might think i want to do a more than trivial change < 1299958569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna start small < 1299958576 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :changed the syntax for newstyle classes to < 1299958583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Foo[Bar]: < 1299958592 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see what happens < 1299958607 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm joining in the fun too < 1299958635 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it can't even finish building because it tries to load existing python code, looks like < 1299958645 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: just add it as an alternative >:D < 1299958658 0 :Lymia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1299958662 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : File "", line 1 < 1299958662 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : class CacheInfo(tuple): < 1299958662 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ < 1299958662 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: invalid syntax < 1299958685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq pikhq pikhq < 1299958760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott elliott elliott < 1299958786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: WHENCE DO I ILLEGALLY PROCURE AT A SPEED GREATER THAN THAT OF A TORTOISE THIS MYSTICAL COLLECTION, FOR THE BITS, THEY RUN TRY EVERYWHERE THE GOOGLES CAN LOCATE < 1299958813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I REMEMBER NOT < 1299958835 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: FFFFFFFFF < 1299958846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Shoot me Chrono Trigger or something so I can test this bsnes build? :-P < 1299958859 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : File "", line 1 < 1299958860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : class CacheInfo(tuple): < 1299958860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ < 1299958860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: invalid syntax < 1299958865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1299958882 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor cacheinfo < 1299958886 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> class Foo*: < 1299958886 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... a = 1 < 1299958887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1299958887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fatal Python error: Non-statement found: -13824 8308512 < 1299958887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aborted < 1299958893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299958899 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added an '*' alternate to the grammar < 1299958902 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: THIS IS SO MUCH FUN < 1299958910 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: embed HQ9+ < 1299958921 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop making such good suggestions! < 1299958937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299958943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok here's a bad one < 1299958945 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll go to the ast talk after all < 1299958946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: embed Funge-98! < 1299958951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's like < 1299958953 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best suggestion < 1299958956 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but unfortunately, the most difficult. < 1299958970 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in docstrings? but that would be so cheating < 1299958975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1299958976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the raw code < 1299958977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, no < 1299958980 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1299958981 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1299958986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're lame. lamest. < 1299958989 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maximising lame! < 1299958990 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1299958998 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1299959000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this lexer is insane < 1299959001 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually < 1299959010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yield_expr: 'yield' [testlist] < 1299959010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1299959012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's make this < 1299959019 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be easier here than in a non-offside-rule langauge < 1299959021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| 'dleiy' [testlist] < 1299959023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might work. < 1299959032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: python isn't really offside rule though in the way haskell is < 1299959046 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but i only mean, it cares more about the column than, say, ruby does < 1299959063 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1299959068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok! < 1299959070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./configure && make -j3 < 1299959099 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what does the * do? < 1299959125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: here's an idea. < 1299959136 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function call f(x,y,z) becomes x.__getfunc__('f')(y, z) < 1299959144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :object.__getfunc__('f') just returns the global symbol f by default. < 1299959154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless f is an attribute of this object and a function < 1299959156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater-: make cpython crash, apparently < 1299959157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it returns that < 1299959169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f(x,y,z) == x.f(y,z) if f is defined on x < 1299959185 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and f(x,y,z) and f(x',y,z) can behave totally differently according to x and x''s whims!! < 1299959189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH GOD IT'S SO BEAUTIFUL. < 1299959202 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus hrist < 1299959212 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a fuckin' visionary < 1299959238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> dleiy 3 < 1299959239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : File "", line 1 < 1299959239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: 'yield' outside function < 1299959239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitching. < 1299959282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suite: simple_stmt | NEWLINE INDENT stmt+ DEDENT | NEWLINE '{' stmt+ '}' < 1299959289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1299959307 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice, had to make twice to get it to recompile < 1299959357 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blurg need to shut down again battery gasping < 1299959361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, doesn't work, oh well < 1299959376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So disappointed in you. SO disappointed < 1299959415 0 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1299959572 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VWFCAOgti6g/TXqUxvpr9lI/AAAAAAAACdQ/mdX79YsluRY/s1600/google_vintage.jpg < 1299959634 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299961034 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *sob* < 1299961095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this sobbing, there's a person at the centre of this sobbing, who doesn't care, that person is pikhq, folks < 1299961198 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299961203 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sob. < 1299961206 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1299961209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq is an evil space demon < 1299961279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :悪宇宙鬼? < 1299961333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. < 1299961347 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My bsnes compile remains UNTESTED, my computer's performance UNCERTAIN. < 1299961357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All because of evil space demons. < 1299961386 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: they clearly had to think of something that could top that earthquake they made < 1299961394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. evil pikhq. < 1299961410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fukushima-Daiichi reactor explosion. < 1299961453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appears to have just affected an outer wall. Still, eeek. < 1299961481 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd expect the japanese to take some care while building reactors. < 1299961496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. They didn't expect a 9.0. < 1299961496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ONE MEASLY LITTLE ROM < 1299961498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I BET YOU'RE A < 1299961499 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < 1299961506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A TOOL OF BIG COPYRIGHT < 1299961508 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHICH IS NOW A THING < 1299961512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SO TIRED) < 1299961517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: um this is JAPAN. how could they not expect it. < 1299961525 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: because japan doesn't get 9.0. < 1299961532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What, one of the largest earthquakes ever? < 1299961540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actualy 8.8-8.9 but w/e < 1299961552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Significantly larger than it was previously believed *possible* to get there? < 1299961559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1299961569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1299961576 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they really should expect the largest earthquake ever, because they regularly get those < 1299961582 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so pikhq is an undercover agent of the MPAA. < 1299961584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except... for software. < 1299961618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, time to write a compiler backend from desugared Algol 60 syntax trees, minus recursive data types or any sort of memory allocation, but including recursion, to hardware: 2 days < 1299961638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite proud of that, although it explains why you haven't heard much from me recently < 1299961641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also the largest earthquake to ever hit Japan... < 1299961650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the world record < 1299961669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.5. < 1299961674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's this guy in finland who SWEARS he once felt the earth move a bit < 1299961696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd totally ask random people for the rom except i distinctly recall asking before and only pikhq had it >:) < 1299961699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was big news some years back, i hear < 1299961715 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: :D < 1299961733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one damn exciting country < 1299961763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this one time it rained so much there was a 5x5 meter pond outside, pretty insane < 1299961775 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Skåne_County_earthquake < 1299961781 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweden has earthquakes too! < 1299961785 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1299961790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i thought finland had plenty of water... < 1299961809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well yes but not disasterous INTERESTING water < 1299961851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure pikhq caused the tsunami. < 1299961888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norway isn't actually earthquake territory either. on some outlying islands they sometimes feel a bit, i think. < 1299961897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exactly < 1299961902 0 :cpressey!~cpressey@conference/pycon/x-joabifsvgwoftjbj JOIN :#esoteric < 1299961909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : also this one time it rained so much there was a 5x5 meter pond outside, pretty insane <-- for some reason that implies to me that the pond was exactly square < 1299961912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would indeed be insane < 1299961916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Oresund Bridge between Sweden and Denmark was investigated for cracks and other problems but nothing was found." holy SHIT, and here i thought scandinavia was a safe place < 1299961917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no it was his mom taking a dive < 1299961922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh snap. < 1299961937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, a bridge was almost damaged < 1299961937 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i figured out what class Foo*: should mean. it should mean that Foo inherits from itself. < 1299961950 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that operation actually do anything, though? < 1299961952 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you are truly a great visionary of our time < 1299961956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Minecraftian pond. < 1299961962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd cause the equivalent of super() to go into an infinite loop, and make no difference the rest of the time < 1299961973 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONCEPTUALLY IT IS PERFECTLY WELL DEFINED < 1299961976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he's hacking up cpython, he can do whatever he wants! < 1299961985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that makes perfect sense in an esolang < 1299961992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: minecraftian ponds in the real world would be rather lovecraftian. despite being euclidean. < 1299961993 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, like Python < 1299961996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much like Claudio Calvelli's unary division < 1299962051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(defined as (x / (x >> 2)), which nearly always returns 2 except for when there are rounding errors) < 1299962075 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... IIRC, the behaviour is "normally return 2, except occasionally return 3 or crash" < 1299962092 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299962097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best function ever < 1299962134 0 :cpressey_!~cpressey@conference/pycon/x-yiuourgjgfbjdmpx JOIN :#esoteric < 1299962145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299962174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idgi, why 2? < 1299962208 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x>>2 = x/4 < 1299962215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought you shoud know < 1299962215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I meant x >> 1 < 1299962218 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1299962220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :said the wrong thing < 1299962221 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1299962223 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1299962227 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all unary ops in INTERCAL are op(x, x>>1) < 1299962241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't actually used these silly operators, because bits are so 50's < 1299962248 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except there's some sort of rotation involved too < 1299962250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I forgot to allow for < 1299962254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, now I'm confused < 1299962254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i figured maybe i don't understand how they work < 1299962271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: TriINTERCAL uses trits instead, and unary division is well-defined there too < 1299962276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although still pretty useless < 1299962307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (x>>1) | ((x&1) << 31) ? < 1299962325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I just looked it up < 1299962334 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it normally does a pure rightshift in inconsistency to the rest of the INTERCAL < 1299962339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can change it to a rotation with a compiler option < 1299962343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to the rest of the INTERCAL operators < 1299962359 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : CLC-INTERCAL 1.-94.-4 introduced a new unary operator, division. This differs from normal unary operators because it is arithmetic, not bitwise. The operation is as follows: the operand is shifted right arithmetically, then the original value is divided by the result of the shift and truncated to an integer. Note that the most frequent result is the base, since a right shift is equivalent to a division by the base, truncating the result to an < 1299962361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer. For example, in base 5, unary division of #62 is #62 divided by #12, which just happens to be #5. However, the operation can also return other values, for example in base 5 unary division of #12 is #6. And of course any value smaller than the base produces a division by zero splat. A compiler option, bitwise-divide, changes the unary division to behave like a normal unary operation, performing a bitwise rotate of its operand and so on. You < 1299962362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can figure out what it does. < 1299962399 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why hasn't somebody written fuse-hg yet >_> < 1299962400 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1299962421 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz hg sux < 1299962427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously! < 1299962446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12/2 == 6, hm < 1299962455 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEP 336: "Make None Callable" < 1299962466 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: AFAICT there's no good gitfs either. < 1299962472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just sgfs < 1299962475 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: wat. < 1299962486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [x `div` (x `div` 2) | x <- [1..]] < 1299962486 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [*Exception: divide by zero < 1299962489 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : This PEP is rejected. It is considered a feature that None raises < 1299962490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : an error when called. The proposal falls short in tests for < 1299962490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : obviousness, clarity, explictness, and necessity. The provided Switch < 1299962490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : example is nice but easily handled by a simple lambda definition. < 1299962490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : See python-dev discussion on 17 June 2005. < 1299962493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [x `div` (x `div` 2) | x <- [2..]] < 1299962494 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,... < 1299962494 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm in the "myopic language improvement suggestions" talk < 1299962506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> filter (/= 2) $ [x `div` (x `div` 2) | x <- [2..]] < 1299962510 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1299962510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not very much 3 there... < 1299962514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf? < 1299962516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should at least produce [3, < 1299962546 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If you get sgfs working, I will switch Hackiki to Scape🐐 < 1299962555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, 2 / (2 / 2) is 1 < 1299962557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: DONE. < 1299962561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: [2,3,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,... < 1299962563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's a 3 there < 1299962567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should produce [3, before timing out < 1299962568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition < 1299962573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i added was a filter < 1299962573 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299962577 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you sure 2/2/2 is 1 < 1299962581 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, 2 < 1299962592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 3 / (3 / 2) is 3 if you use integer division < 1299962600 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your points are rather floaty today < 1299962600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1 / (1 / 2) is divide-by-zero < 1299962633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1:let f x = f (x+1) in f 1 < 1299962637 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I completed making a chess program with TeX. http://sprunge.us/QSWX http://sprunge.us/MdJW http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_13/texchess1.png < 1299962651 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: btw, I have no idea what the conceptual advantage of Scape🐐 is over any other VCS :P < 1299962652 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the pieces is a bit too small? < 1299962653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what < 1299962654 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hiding flow control inside of macros is a bad idea" -- raymond chen < 1299962659 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1299962660 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1299962661 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : thread killed < 1299962663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: does it generate the annotations itself? < 1299962666 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor, really, what concept is unique to Scape🐐 at all. < 1299962667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1299962676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's FRACTAL. < 1299962681 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No. < 1299962681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that character after Scape? < 1299962687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: C-INTERCAL not only hides flow control inside macros, but hides it inside a postprocessor < 1299962690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Explaining it more in-depth has been known to put people who aren't me and ais523 to sleep, so I won't bother. < 1299962690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Mandelbrot is dead. < 1299962692 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it does parse the moves itself and draw the board itself. < 1299962694 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nice, I guess he uses only inline-assembly for control flow then < 1299962713 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1:let f x = f (x+1 :: Double) in f 1 < 1299962714 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't ever hide anything ever < 1299962723 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The end effect is that it does merging properly :P < 1299962726 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval: ExitFailure 1 < 1299962726 0 :lambdabot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1299962728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And branching. < 1299962752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i think it's just that lambdabot doesn't produce anything if it times out before filling the output buffer < 1299962754 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How properly is "properly" :P ... I mean, neither git nor hg SUCK at branching and merging, though there's always room for improvement. < 1299962775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, is it just that my attention span is so variable that it's impossible to tell if I'm paying attention or not? < 1299962789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If you want to see what the TeX chess generates, look at the example source file, everything not typed in the example file but is shown in the picture, is the things it makes by itself. < 1299962790 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Err, I meant people who aren't either me or you < 1299962792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: git and hg both have a "dumb" view of the repository: they just see it as a bunch of trees stuck together. All the knowledge of patches is hacked on to this. < 1299962807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: This is inherently more limited than scapegoat, which keeps track more than just the textual content of lines changed in its patches. < 1299962811 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know, I was trying to figure out why I'd been singled out as an exception? < 1299962820 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because you're the one who explained it to me < 1299962823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I assume you didn't put yourself to sleep < 1299962825 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, is Scape a sort of easier-to-implement version of Scapegoat? < 1299962831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't noticed the name connection < 1299962835 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, no < 1299962839 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's scape[unicode goat character] < 1299962843 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blame Gregor :) < 1299962855 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no problem < 1299962856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1299962858 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's usually who i blame < 1299962863 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I call Scape🐐 Scape🐐 because Unicode goat > Unicode 'g' 'o' 'a' 't' :P < 1299962865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that character isn't parsed by my client < 1299962870 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor mine < 1299962881 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then your clients suck ... mine can't render it, but it knows that it's there :P < 1299962887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Basically, instead of having patch operations like "insert STRING between STRING and STRING in FILE", it has "insert STRING between CHANGE and CHANGE". < 1299962899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it doesn't even figure out the encoding correctly < 1299962903 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything that hides anything anywhere sucks < 1299962909 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Each file has its own SOF and EOF changes. < 1299962920 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My client does display the unicode correctly but I have no font to display it. < 1299962934 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: does this guy prefer copy paste over functions? < 1299962948 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "insert STRING between CHANGE and CHANGE" <-- more details plx < 1299962966 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: raymond chen? i have no idea; that quote influenced someone else to reject a proposed feature < 1299962975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear raymond chen is awesome but i forget who he is < 1299962980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Change := start of file | end of file | insert string between change and change | replace change with string | delete change | move (change,change) between (change,change) < 1299962984 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1299962987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the old new thing < 1299963000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Basically, sg changes have a very trivial merging algorithm (topographically sort each change by its dependencies (changes it mentions), apply in order; if a patch fails, there is a conflict), that can trivially be shown to never "do the wrong thing". < 1299963002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't say i wanted to remember < 1299963020 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When trying to look up "Raymond Chen" in Wikipedia I get "MSDN Blogs". So maybe that is who Raymond Chen is. < 1299963025 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it is < 1299963025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Basically, < 1299963030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: A line is identified by the change that creates it. < 1299963045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So consider "insert 'hello' between (SOF,EOF)". Call this change . < 1299963046 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is "The Old New Thing", according to Wikipedia. < 1299963051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: indeed < 1299963053 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Let's say you turned this file into 'hello\ngoodbye'. < 1299963053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh this is painful (not the talk, it's interesting, it's what it's making me think about language design < 1299963055 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm starting to conceptualize it here ... in a sense the repository ends up forming an (implicit) lattice instead of a tree. < 1299963062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for elliott's benefit: ) < 1299963062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The corresponding change is "insert 'goodbye' between (,EOF)". < 1299963069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the better MSDN blogs < 1299963085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (In practice, you give a hash to every change and identify changes with that.) < 1299963093 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: heh, those unbalanced parens were worrying me too < 1299963112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Changes can also be a set of changes, and in fact the change "changeset {c1,c2}" produces a merge of c1 and c2. < 1299963117 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is that a talk available online somewhere? < 1299963127 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And so, you don't create false dependencies just because you happened to make a change in one branch, even though it applies to all branches. < 1299963136 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it might be, in the future, but i can't find them online yet < 1299963141 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, maybe ais523 knows because he's slept :) < 1299963159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The same basic principle with changes on files is applied to directories, except that since directories are unordered, you say "insert into ". < 1299963164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where can be e.g. an empty directory itself. < 1299963182 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, I frequently fix something in hg, then go "aww shit I fixed it in branch but I should have put it in default so that things will merge properly" ... but your changes aren't assigned to "branches", they're just assigned to dependent changes, so fixes like that wouldn't be so affixed to the branch you happened to be working in. < 1299963201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yes, it avoids the problem where a VCS doesn't have enough context to know what a chain means < 1299963203 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, in fact with scapegoat there's not much of an explicit concept of a branch... < 1299963204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*change menas < 1299963207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*change means < 1299963211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact all possible changes platonically exist in every repository :-) < 1299963221 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the One Big Repository has shitloads of branches.) < 1299963224 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the definition's done the other way round, a branch is defined by which changes you happen to allow into it < 1299963228 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question is just what you whitelist. < 1299963233 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, I would hope that you could label a set of changes in some way, then call that a "branch", just for human convenience. < 1299963243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Although like I was saying above, if it's a lattice then conceptually there's a shitload of branches. < 1299963247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: This can also be extended to language-aware changes -- consider "insert argument between and ", where y and z are arguments to some application. < 1299963258 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaah < 1299963260 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*brain axplote* < 1299963284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: This would produce totally kickass merging, but it would be a pain to get the mode resilient :P < 1299963294 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But really you shouldn't be committing invalid code.) < 1299963296 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what you two are talking about but it is awesome, please continue < 1299963301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Scapegoat!!!!! < 1299963313 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Scape🐐) < 1299963329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: BTW most of this stuff are ais523's ideas, I just kept prodding him with questions until I had a vision of a coherent system in my head :P < 1299963332 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*almost all of < 1299963333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't say i wanted to know < 1299963342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Unfortunately I must tell you everything. < 1299963343 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, so I was told :P < 1299963371 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You realize of course that now that I'm starting to have some conceptualization of it, I'll go implement it and trounce your implementation and you'll go "awwww no" < 1299963380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeaaah, good luck with that. < 1299963390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: There is a lot more :P < 1299963400 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturalismo :P < 1299963406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, in a theoretical platonic model, you can define a branch as a predicate that takes a patch and returns whether it's in the branch or not. < 1299963421 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Whether this is feasible or even useful in an actual implementation is up for debate.) < 1299963469 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a correctness criterion for said predicate, namely that if it evaluates to true for change X, it evaluates to true for all parents of X, and as a result I question the value of defining it so abstractly. < 1299963473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, and one of the parts of sg I made was that you can push ANY changes by simply recursive cp. < 1299963498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (Assuming a directory-based store.) < 1299963503 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If not, there'll be a trivial command to merge two databases.) < 1299963520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically every object in the database is assigned a longcat hash, and things are never addressed without it :P < 1299963525 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There is a correctness criterion for said predicate, namely that if it evaluates to true for change X, it evaluates to true for all parents of X, and as a result I question the value of defining it so abstractly. < 1299963527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "parent" < 1299963531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE TO MOVE TO ANOTHER ROOM NOW < 1299963561 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i'm wrong < 1299963578 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so scapegoat is some kind of VCSWiki < 1299963579 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Dependency. I suppose "parent" is a bit of a strong implication for that, but *eh* :P. A change named by the given change. < 1299963588 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wiki? ... no < 1299963590 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a language for describing changes < 1299963593 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Mmm, if by VCSWiki you mean nothing like a wiki at all, then yes, absolutely. < 1299963608 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought Gregor mumbled something about replacing giki with it < 1299963612 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not giki... < 1299963614 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is now < 1299963616 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do describe thing about broken stack in MSDN Blogs, which is something I have sometimes had problem with too (although I was using gdb instead). < 1299963617 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki. < 1299963621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I've been thinking of those as "dependencies", but they are pretty close to parents. < 1299963621 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki. < 1299963624 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes thank you elliott < 1299963634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's just that most VCSes don't have like fifty parents per change :P < 1299963646 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: True :P < 1299963649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that just means he'd just be dropping the wikiness from his site, I guess? < 1299963655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (Consider that every individual line insertion is addressable, as it must be to be referencable in further commits.) < 1299963658 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm talking about replacing one COMPONENT of Hackiki, and sg is just a thought. < 1299963669 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (An efficient way to store this -- probably inline with some kind of lookup table -- will have to be found.) < 1299963672 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hackiki uses a VCS as its store. < 1299963681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This would cause ridiculous inode blowup, thus why I'm partial to using an object database file.) < 1299963683 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ok, understood now < 1299963746 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: A nice thing about the "you can literally just shove any two repositories together" thing is that a hypothetical ScapegoatHub can just store everything in one big honking repository and get deduplicative storage of forks for free :P < 1299963772 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Of course, naming the "repository" (in the classic sense) that you want to check out is a bit painful :P < 1299963788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, a "repository" is essentially defined by its tip commit. < 1299963791 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You work backwards from there. < 1299963796 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: btw, git starts blowing up at around 30 parents of a commit < 1299963808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Note that in the naïve case, checking out an sg commit is slooooooooooooow, because you have to simulate every change back to the beginning of time. < 1299963818 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: A sane implementation would store full copies of files every N revisions or so. < 1299963836 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be able to uncheckout as well as checkout and it should keep reference counts and should garbage collect changes that no one is using < 1299963845 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with that, bbl < 1299963852 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A garbage collect is basically copying the tip and all its dependencies to a new repo, then removing the old one. < 1299963853 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a copying GC! < 1299963854 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But there are no commits, only changes, so a "tip" commit is artificial on top of that. You can't from any given change (thinking of them as lines for ease) necessarily trace your way back to every other change, since you'd have to trace forwards too ... < 1299963859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Commit == change. < 1299963868 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Commit == multiple changes < 1299963870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 defined the tip precisely, I think. < 1299963874 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In classical parlance < 1299963887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The oldest commit with most dependencies? < 1299963890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was it the newest... < 1299963895 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it would be the set of all changes representing the current view with no dependents. < 1299963901 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically it's "good practice" in sg to commit two conflicting changes to the tip without merging immediately. < 1299963906 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you don't want either to become the tip. < 1299963914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have to be careful with the definition. < 1299963914 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you don't have to store forward deltas though - e.g. git will usually store the head as non-delta, then make older commits deltas of newer ones < 1299963922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Consider that "conflicting changes" is basically the definition of an sg branch.) < 1299963933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Indeed, but, eh, that's "implementation details". < 1299963934 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: That becomes a bit tricky with this design, it's not so linear. < 1299963950 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, sg sorta discards conventional notions of time and whatnot X-D < 1299963957 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1299963968 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every possible change exists, and you just pick which ones you like. < 1299963970 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1299963975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually by making them manually and running "sg commit". < 1299964019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: An sgfs could, I think, work, but I have no idea what you'd actually expose via it... < 1299964036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A scapegoat repository is essentially a big hash-indexed object store. < 1299964041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There is a correctness criterion for said predicate [...] <-- hm a closed set in a finite topological space... < 1299964046 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299964062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear god < 1299964067 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oerjan is now going to ruin our version control system. < 1299964070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soon it will become topology. < 1299964096 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: don't worry, he'll end up getting stuck into trying to work out the theoretical basis behind darcs < 1299964114 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEORY OF PATCHES < 1299964116 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1299964119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: He's a theoretical mathematician. He hand-waves over the utterly nonsensicality of his models on a *daily basis*. < 1299964126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1299964182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: sg was apparently born after the TAEB guy looked into darcs and concluded its merging algorithm made no sense at all, FWIW :P < 1299964206 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the main TAEB guy < 1299964207 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was born after ais523 went "lol VCS sux I'mma make my own" < 1299964219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: Note that in the naïve case, checking out an sg commit is slooooooooooooow, because you have to simulate every change back to the beginning of time. <-- isn't this like a problem with darcs too, without further optimization? < 1299964220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was the other person working on TAEB::AI::Planar, which is a side project of mine < 1299964234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, obviously < 1299964240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a problem even with CVS in the really naive case < 1299964240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I would like to take credit for convincing ais523 that for the time being, the turtles do not have to go down to per-character-change granularity. < 1299964250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With complete editor integration on every keystroke) < 1299964253 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, are they still called turtle? < 1299964257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*turtles? < 1299964264 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was implicitly invoking the all-the-way-down story. < 1299964265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we really not have a better name for them? < 1299964267 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Per ... modified block? < 1299964271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm calling them changes :P < 1299964286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: As in, every single character insert or removal generates a commit. < 1299964293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be noted at this point that ais523 is slightly insane. < 1299964302 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, but what is the current thoughts on it? < 1299964303 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if sg is as general as that would imply, it'd be neat to actually call them turtles < 1299964313 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change = "sequence of modifications with no intervening unmodified character"? < 1299964315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Commits happen only manually, and line-basedb y default :-P < 1299964320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*line-based by < 1299964333 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, commits happening manually is totes acceptable :P < 1299964334 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm open to non-line-based suggestions, but it's what every VCS uses, and it's hard to merge two changes to the same line. < 1299964345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ideal solution is language-aware change types. < 1299964352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: changes are mostly defined recursively as bundles of other changes, although there has to be a bottom level somewhere < 1299964364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott convinced me that it's best to be flexible about where it is, depending on what you're versioning < 1299964381 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There needs to be a common solution too, you can't integrate every language :P < 1299964388 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, yah. Line-based. < 1299964393 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, why can't you? There's an Emacs mode for every language. < 1299964396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the time being we're basing it on lines, as they're the most commonly meaningful < 1299964400 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then there's a bottom level, and it's turtles all the way *up*? < 1299964406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, this is pie-in-the-sky talk for now. < 1299964410 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'mma go write a new language HEY WHERE'S MY EMACS MODE < 1299964412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: heh, that's one way to describe it < 1299964422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I can ship you a copy of brainfuck-joust-mode if you like < 1299964428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, and the SOF/EOF commits created for each file use the file identifier... and the file identifier is just the hash of the {directory-change} that added the file to a folder. < 1299964430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*directory. < 1299964448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Soon it will become topology. <-- finite topological spaces are rather trivial, that "including ancestors" or "including descendants" thing is basically all there is to them. also, this is the same as a finite partial order. < 1299964450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote it in the latest BF Joust spate, in order to get decent syntax highlighting and indentation < 1299964491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, and technically the directory change structures would be POSIX-specific at first... mostly because if you cater to working well on Windows, you can't version things like symlinks, and that's incredibly irritating. < 1299964507 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could translate them to NTFS links or whatever, but at the present time the amount I care about Windows is ~0. < 1299964525 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows is made of fail, nobody cares. < 1299964531 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NTFS links don't work like symlinks anyway < 1299964541 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only kind of similarly in certain circumstances < 1299964544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw, I really like how sg's merge algorithm can be implemented in a dozen lines in just about any language :) < 1299964548 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without even a built-in topological sort < 1299964561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementing it efficiently is rather harder < 1299964570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topological sort by dependencies, apply each in resulting order; if any fail, the changeset fails. < 1299964580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's got the property of Underlambda that I like: easy to implement, possible to implement efficiently < 1299964594 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: server upgrade time < 1299964616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that quit message from fungot seemed almost intelligible < 1299964658 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: har har har < 1299964725 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anywho, implementing scapegoat's basics is really quite trivial, it's making it actually "work" that's significantly more difficult. < 1299964747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, for one, the change-generator needs to recognise moves, replacements, etc. < 1299964758 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (Note: sg is the only VCS I know of to handle splicing a file properly :P) < 1299964761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: remember we were discussing Paul Levy a few days ago < 1299964767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. splitting x.c into a.c and b.c < 1299964769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he unintentionally gave me some advice on Feather < 1299964773 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :git, for instance, sees it as renaming x.c to one of them < 1299964776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and creating an entirely new file for the other < 1299964782 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in sg, you move both halves of the file out to the new one < 1299964785 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then remove the resulting empty file < 1299964786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh, nice < 1299964788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what exactly? < 1299964801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was explaining the theoretical basis behind continuation-passing-style < 1299964833 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's all about call-by-push-value, you see." < 1299964845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And call-by-push-value's theoretical basis is itself." < 1299964855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I realised that although it's hard to track the control flow of a program when you retroactively modified what it was doing, it's much easier to track it in CPS < 1299964856 0 :cpressey!~cpressey@conference/pycon/x-lgoneitkepjvztzs JOIN :#esoteric < 1299964877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the problem is: if you retroactively modify a program, what in its new execution corresponds to what in its old execution?) < 1299964898 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-202-177.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1299964899 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, it has to be reference-counted, so every repo knows who has cloned what from it < 1299964912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise it's not insane enough < 1299964918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: err...certainly. in the wiki, yes. < 1299964919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: this is meant to be practical < 1299964926 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1299964929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1299964962 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least as practical as Haskell!111 < 1299964970 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case i am totally designing a language < 1299964970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So what would you actually want out of an sgfs or whatever? < 1299965024 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I want out of FS is the ability to mount a particular revision as a filesystem, make any (or no) changes, then commit as part of unmounting. < 1299965053 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want this to be done without writing to the real filesystem if I don't write to the mounted filesystem, making it potentially faster than just a checkout. < 1299965068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, does every page load involve a commit in Hackiki or something? < 1299965076 0 :cpressey1!~cpressey@conference/pycon/x-uuwzfpziswkjkjdo JOIN :#esoteric < 1299965079 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't quite see why you want it to support doing nothing so efficiently :P < 1299965114 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimizing the common case? < 1299965122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but why would that be common? < 1299965126 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was an attempt at a joke) < 1299965131 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1299965132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1299965134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahem < 1299965166 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reappears. < 1299965174 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I am INTERROGATING your usecase. < 1299965178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Pythoneerstas do. < 1299965183 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Most pageloads don't involve a commit, I'm optimizing for the NO-commit case. < 1299965186 0 :cpressey1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1299965190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, I see. < 1299965198 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: A checkout involves HD write, HD write is bad. < 1299965223 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every pageload would mount a FUSE-backed fs...? < 1299965225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm not sure scapegoat checkout can be very lazy. < 1299965232 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just can't have them all trouncing around in the same repo since one of them MIGHT write. < 1299965235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is it OK if it checks it all out into memory before the mount completes? < 1299965241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In a realistic sg implementation, this would not take long.) < 1299965251 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Memory is fine. < 1299965259 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Presently every pageload (modulo caching) triggers a hg clone. < 1299965277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What if you had to explicitly tell it to commit on unmount so I don't have to keep track of a dirty flag X-D < 1299965289 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Also fine, I know if it wrote or not. < 1299965314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Then that should be pretty easy, really; sg already _has_ a mental model of the entire directory tree. < 1299965327 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (Fun thing about sg: You can move the / of a repository into a subdirectory of another) < 1299965331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And vice-versa. < 1299965341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can move your libvm/ subdirectory out into another repository :P < 1299965373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What happens when Hackiki gets a conflict? < 1299965375 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just yells at you? < 1299965394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm assuming that it always commits from the commit you checkout, not from whatever the tip happens to be when you unmount. < 1299965415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Multi-process safe writing to object databases, hooray X_X) < 1299965424 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It commits to that, then tries to merge; if the merge fails, too bad, your commit goes away. < 1299965438 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1299965463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think sg tends to in theory flag up more conflicts than most VCSes, but in practice it shouldn't matter. < 1299965482 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Purely in that editing the same few lines of a file is likely to mess the ordering up and thus cause a conflict.) < 1299965499 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how built is this thing < 1299965508 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't follow ... < 1299965512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: In theory, 70%. < 1299965515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice, 3%. < 1299965523 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In reality, -0.25% :P < 1299965529 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I implemented some algos. < 1299965543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Say you have a file [a, b, c] (those are lines). < 1299965559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say one commit inserts a line so it becomes [a, b, d, c]; insert d between (b,c) < 1299965577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say another commit replaces b with q so it becomes [a, q, c]; replace b with q. < 1299965580 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These two commits conflict. < 1299965591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same if two commits inserted a line between b and c. < 1299965597 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those two commits conflict in almost /any/ VCS. < 1299965613 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost? < 1299965622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. I don't really have many experiences with conflicts in practice because I dont work on any large-number-of-developer projects. < 1299965623 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, make that every VCS, ever :P < 1299965628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But scapegoat is definitely very anal about its ordering. < 1299965633 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I possibly did not pick the best example. < 1299965646 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK, how's this for you: < 1299965659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: In scapegoat, two people can start a repository with a file "foo" in it. < 1299965665 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Think of every major VCS' merging algorithm as just taking two unified patches and trying to apply them both. That's pretty much all you get, with a little bit more cleverness sometimes. If your context changes, you fail. < 1299965668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John can insert [a,b,c] into foo. < 1299965675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anne can insert [a,b,c] into foo. < 1299965678 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They both commit, and try and merge. < 1299965681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In scapegoat, this is a conflict. < 1299965690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No other VCS does THAT :P < 1299965698 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll bet there's at least one that does! :P < 1299965713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because the hash of John's and Anne's changes will be different, because it involves the timestamp, their name, summary, etc. etc. etc.) < 1299965721 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gehhh... what does "merge" mean here if that is the case < 1299965729 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing can be merged, effectively < 1299965733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Completely false. < 1299965747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The fact is that this is an unrealistic scenario. < 1299965755 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two people never independently reinvent a file from scratch. < 1299965770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scapegoat is based on blame; merging works based on the common ancestors that identify each line. < 1299965789 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, whatever < 1299965804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No, but really: If foo started off as [a,b] < 1299965808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And John changed it to [a,x,b] < 1299965812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Anne changed it to [a,b,y] < 1299965818 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then they'd merge successfully into [a,x,b,y]. < 1299965825 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the a and the b are the asme in both cases. < 1299965846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is that John's and Anne's a, b, and c are different in that above example, because scapegoat doesn't just work on the literal bytes of the line, it works on the change that produces them. < 1299965847 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*produced < 1299965886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and ofc if your users have the habit of doing this sort of thing, it's entirely possible to generate a merge conflict resolution automatically, or automatically-with-confirmation < 1299965894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh, of course. < 1299965900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should probably slap such users, of course. < 1299965906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1299965908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, clarification, by conflict I don't mean you can NEVER COMMIT THEM EVER :P < 1299965925 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, you'd just have to pick one of John's and Anne's a, b, and c. < 1299965934 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The decision is essentially arbitrary. < 1299965944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or resolve it any other way you like < 1299965956 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to clarify: when you said "hash of the timestamp, name, summary" you meant of these properties when the file was created, not properties of the change? < 1299965958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although then commits to Anne's branch wouldn't get merged in properly... but basically this is the least realistic scenario ever. < 1299965963 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The properties of the change. < 1299965969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Every single change is a change. < 1299965978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course "add line X between Y and Z" is unlikely to have a summary. < 1299965979 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, then i still don't understand, but i don't care enough to commit the brainpower to trying < 1299965985 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it'll have the author, and the timestamp in it. < 1299965997 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Most VCSes have change = author + timestamp + diff. < 1299966008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scapegoat has patch = author + timestamp + change. < 1299966021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where change = insert string between patch and patch, delete patch, ..., changeset (set of patch) < 1299966029 0 :Lymia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)> < 1299966033 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You almost always commit changesets (implicitly, by making multiple changes). < 1299966042 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you can stop typing if you like-- see my previous line < 1299966048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Just trying to help. < 1299966053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1299966055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's monologuing in case anyone reads the logs < 1299966073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think it might also be for my own benefit :P < 1299966082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for Gregor's in case he's still listening. < 1299966086 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make sense, since you're the main consumer of the logs < 1299966088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you're an avid logreader :) < 1299966094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, cpressey beat me to the joke < 1299966108 0 :Lymia!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1299966119 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the channel's official Historian, I have to be! < 1299966186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ...to summarise, AFAICT implementing scapegoat efficiently basically involves lots of caching. < 1299966189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ludicrous amounts of caching. < 1299966208 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BTW, I was thinking that changes should be signed with the author's GPG key... < 1299966217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the GPG public key stored in the author object. < 1299966226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And perhaps some sg magic to automatically migrate any seen author objects to a common store. < 1299966235 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if someone's GPG key changes or expires? < 1299966248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then they become a new person-hash (but the same happens if they change their email, etc.) < 1299966257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's acceptable < 1299966267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe there'll be some way an author can give everyone an "i'm this person now" object < 1299966280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it could just be left for people to work out; it's not a big issue, IMO < 1299966296 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Automatic migration would be a security hole if you first saw an author in a malicious repository though. Anyway. < 1299966299 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we discussing the new dvcs you're making? < 1299966301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You couldn't sign every single change... < 1299966306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that'd include every single line touched. < 1299966314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure how to do it more granularly without breaking the object-hash structure. < 1299966318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yep < 1299966327 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are we calling it again? < 1299966373 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sg < 1299966376 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(= scapegoat) < 1299966387 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just noticed that he has invented 27% of the 2011 esolangs. < 1299966401 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only March :-P < 1299966402 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, if you sign something won't you implicitly be signing all its parents? < 1299966414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: err, no, considering that other people write the parents < 1299966417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although hmm < 1299966417 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to invent MOAR languages < 1299966420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean that it counts as like < 1299966437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I verify that the authorship information contained in these depended-upon commits is accurate"? < 1299966447 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1299966449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then things committed as changesets would just get unsigned constitutents, and the whole thing would be signed as a seal of approval < 1299966451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intriguing idea < 1299966459 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem is that, looking only at a subcommit, the system would not know it is signed < 1299966463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without traversing up the graph < 1299966465 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably slow < 1299966479 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's slow unless you make it fast < 1299966504 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more caching :) < 1299966512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1299966530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: can't just cache everything, dude :) < 1299966536 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not!? < 1299966539 0 :iconmaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is writing to Esolang all the languages he hasn't bothered to put down there yet. < 1299966541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, I think sgfs should be perfectly feasible to do efficiently. < 1299966573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I refuse to accept Hackiki's legitimately unless it draws fancy dependency lines in the revision history and has a merge conflict settler interface, though :-) < 1299966582 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgiki. < 1299966591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iconmaster: I should do that sometime < 1299966602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't documented DownRight anywhere, and it's been finished for ages < 1299966614 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299966619 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: DID YOU USE MY AMAZING SYNTAX IDEA < 1299966628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it? < 1299966633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, syntax < 1299966636 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO GUYS I AM BACK < 1299966639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep forgetting that languages need one of those < 1299966653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the compiler I wrote this weekend doesn't have one, you feed it ASTs as an argument) < 1299966669 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is the best thing ever. < 1299966678 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that already exists. < 1299966682 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called "Lisp". < 1299966685 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, comment! < 1299966730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even Lisp has a syntax, although a very lightweight one < 1299966760 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically just a syntax for serialising ASTs, though. < 1299966768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is all syntax < 1299966953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it has quotes < 1299966963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are something which seem relatively Lisp-specific, in that context < 1299966985 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders how one can not have a syntax, then. < 1299966995 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use (quote x) directly < 1299967002 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you store the ASTs you pass to the compiler? < 1299967015 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST (QUOTE QUOTE) X))) (QUOTE (LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST (QUOTE QUOTE) X))))) < 1299967019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: @. < 1299967020 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it always ast, why never a general asg :\ < 1299967027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just construct an ast object < 1299967030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then pass it to the compiler < 1299967030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy < 1299967035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, because how would that even work. < 1299967042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1299967044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp is a graph < 1299967054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: u r stupid < 1299967061 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'#1=(1 . #1#) < 1299967062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1299967065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the exact syntax < 1299967067 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1299967069 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean that thing? < 1299967089 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh, right, forgot that conses can have cyclic links. < 1299967106 0 :cpressey_!~cpressey@63.133.138.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299967112 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_! < 1299967122 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you escaped the Pythonistas? < 1299967126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you write a lisp loop that's just code that's a cycle? < 1299967129 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1299967138 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without quoting < 1299967140 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp is as close to syntax-free as you can POSSIBLY get, although I'll admit that quoting (as opposed to the list constructor) is borderline syntaxy. BORDERLINE. < 1299967166 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you mean use cyclic conses to loop? < 1299967171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Uh. < 1299967172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth. < 1299967187 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, Forth is definitely less ensyntaxed than Lisp :P < 1299967195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth has literally no formal syntax, it's just a system that starts in a mode that: Reads a bunch of letters or digits; stops on a space; executes it; and repeats. < 1299967196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what else < 1299967202 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it, since Lisp is applicative order (henceforth to be known as boringplative order). < 1299967218 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval would try to walk the entire graph and just get stuck in a loop. < 1299967225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh... < 1299967230 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bit homo < 1299967232 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that's a cool esolang idea and one which must be done. < 1299967234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if you used a special form < 1299967235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. begin < 1299967242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm but that's ugly < 1299967246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1#=(begin (display "fart") (newline) #1#) < 1299967275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hihi < 1299967282 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a cute idea < 1299967294 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hihihiiiiiiiiiiiiiii < 1299967299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, would code be able to alter itself? < 1299967379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not < 1299967392 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling that would end up being boring... right. < 1299967392 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose, where Lisp is "please hand my your AST as I am too lazy to parse a language", Forth is "please hand me your bytecode as I am too lazy to deserialize an AST" < 1299967397 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :purely functional < 1299967423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1#=(set-car! #1# set-cdr!) < 1299967438 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1#=(begin (set-car! (cadr #1#) set-cdr!) #1#) < 1299967471 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, let's assume it's not boringplative order. < 1299967502 0 :TLUL!~TLUL@wikia/The-last-username-left JOIN :#esoteric < 1299967640 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1299967659 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299967707 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, erm, is this going to be a graph reduction language where cyclical graphs are allowed, or...? < 1299967823 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just scheme where you can write code with loops with ease + magic < 1299967867 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's not start bikeshedding details like what the language is like. < 1299967880 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1299967906 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott's two examples are kind of tricky, though, since it's unclear how evaluation proceeds. < 1299967937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :badly < 1299967943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literals like that are immutable i think :) < 1299967986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, it should just recursively evaluate children, and apply the function in the parent. < 1299968012 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, which doesn't work because you end up trying to walk an infinitely deep tree. < 1299968056 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so ok. john changes [a, b, c] to [a, e, c]: it has hash 1234. anne changes [a, b, c] (same as john's starting point) to [a, e, c] (same as john's end point): it has hash 8765 (because anne != john). scapegoat merges these in some way that is not based on the contents, i.e, it does not look at e and compare e with e. explain how < 1299968064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er. < 1299968069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each individual element of that list has its own hash. < 1299968075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah but only a COUNTABLY infinite tree, so it shouldn't be that hard ay < 1299968077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the important thing. < 1299968080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the list doesn't really exist < 1299968080 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does not contain the author? < 1299968083 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um. < 1299968086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes contains the author. < 1299968091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: like i said, there ARE no lines < 1299968093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are only changes < 1299968098 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hash(e, john) == hash(e, anne)? < 1299968098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines are identified by the commit that creates them < 1299968101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1299968104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by design. < 1299968113 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so these can't be merged afaics < 1299968115 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, Scapegoat! < 1299968122 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The awesome thing I don't understand! < 1299968125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: not automatically < 1299968130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: by the scapegoat auto-merger < 1299968135 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This basically sums up half of what happens in this channel. < 1299968140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: but you could _trivially_ have a merge handler that just chooses one of two identical nodes. < 1299968141 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what kind of change could be? < 1299968149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: any change not like that. < 1299968162 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*two people never modify a file in the exact same way*; that's not a realistic user case. < 1299968173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey: No, but really: If foo started off as [a,b] < 1299968173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And John changed it to [a,x,b] < 1299968173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And Anne changed it to [a,b,y] < 1299968173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Then they'd merge successfully into [a,x,b,y]. < 1299968173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Because the a and the b are the asme in both cases. < 1299968181 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is far more representative of how changes are actually made < 1299968215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, if two scapegoat commits don't conflict, then they fit together perfectly; otherwise, they might have a perfectly reasonable resolution, but no objectively correct one; what happens next is up to you < 1299968242 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1299968262 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i initially asked: what's the definition of "merge" here < 1299968277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey_: merge simply means that (changeset {c1,c2}) is valid < 1299968282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. can apply properly. < 1299968290 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you speak in riddles < 1299968292 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, that is < 1299968300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can apply properly to any input that c1 and c2 can apply to. < 1299968303 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask ais523. < 1299968306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm no good at the explainy. < 1299968309 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :successful merge is successful < 1299968317 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, to eat! < 1299968611 0 :cpressey_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1299968728 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1299968734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh, I think Rust may really be better with just immutable and state, rather than immutable, state, gc < 1299968752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How regularly are Phantom Types used in Haskell? < 1299968947 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, so, uh, circuscheme. < 1299969132 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you have an uncountably infinite tree? < 1299969159 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1299969159 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299969177 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be interesting would be if someone managed to abuse terminology cleverly enough to get an uncountably finite something < 1299969192 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1299969197 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weell... < 1299969209 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's mutually contradictory < 1299969220 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who knows if someone really cleverly abuses terminolgoy < 1299969224 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have sets which are countably infinite, but with uncomputable countability, sooo... < 1299969231 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true! < 1299969232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk: it's possible if you don't have the axiom of choice < 1299969241 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah, this sounds interesting. < 1299969243 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me more. < 1299969250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can have two things that can't be put into one-to-one correspondence with {1,2} because there's no way you can decide which one goes to which number < 1299969254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't make an arbitrary choice either < 1299969267 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so cantor's diagonalization breaks down < 1299969284 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that might be one reason why people like axiom-of-choiceless systems < 1299969290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though they don't seem to correspond to reality too well < 1299969295 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is the arbitrary choice the bit that needs C? < 1299969303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1299969304 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or like, diagonalization gets too powerful, rather < 1299969396 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you do have C? < 1299969398 0 :Zwaarddijk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is that the right interpretation?) < 1299969410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... perhaps you could do something silly with computational equivalence. < 1299969473 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, you have a set defined as {x : x = f \/ x = g} where f and g are arbitrary functions, and you can't tell if that set has 1 or 2 members < 1299969540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that just be an uncomputable set? < 1299969544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why that would make it uncountable < 1299969552 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it was just a start. < 1299969570 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, is it countable if it's uncomputable? < 1299969764 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why the two things have to have anything in common < 1299969855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, countability is impossible for finite sets. < 1299969876 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Countable" = "is bijectible with N". < 1299969938 0 :azaq23!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1299970026 0 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299970032 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, there you go. < 1299970039 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even abuse of notation won't work. < 1299970051 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, wait. < 1299970055 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *does* work. < 1299970067 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zwaarddijk, conclusion: *all* finite sets are uncountable. < 1299970099 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299970186 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1299970422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *two people never modify a file in the exact same way*; that's not a realistic user case. <-- um what if there's a single, obvious fix to a bug? < 1299970436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299970439 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1299970497 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@unaffiliated/poiuy-qwert/x-0506151 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299970540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and you can't make an arbitrary choice either <-- you don't need the axiom to make a finite number of arbitrary choices < 1299970644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Countable" = "is bijectible with N". <-- countable usually includes finite sets as well, iirc < 1299970656 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, abuse of notation! < 1299970704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what abuse? < 1299970716 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To allow uncountable finite sense. < 1299970723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In mathematics, a countable set is a set with the same cardinality (number of elements) as some subset of the set of natural numbers." < 1299970728 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taking "countable" to mean "countably infinite". < 1299970752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well without the axiom of choice you can have uncountably finite sets, as said < 1299970772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a bit more complicated than not selecting between two elements < 1299970778 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you just said you couldn't... how? < 1299970808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is that there are two possible definitions of "finite", which don't agree if you don't gave AoC < 1299970818 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1299970822 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are they? < 1299970844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is "same cardinality as some {1,...,n} where n is a natural number" < 1299970864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same cardinality as == has bijection with < 1299970873 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know that. < 1299970892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is "contains no proper subset of the same cardinality as itself < 1299970934 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a set of the second type which has no bijection with any subset of the natural numbers < 1299970971 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*without C, presumably? < 1299970978 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, of course < 1299971035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the axiom of choice allows to keep selecting elements of a set until you either run out or have got a subset matching N < 1299971103 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact if you _do_ have a proper subset with the same cardinality, you don't even need the axiom to get such a subset < 1299971186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just let f : A -> B be the bijection, let x in A - B, and select {x, f(x), f^2(x), ...} < 1299971357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mind you the axiom does not allow selecting elements _directly_, you need to prove the corollary of dependent choice first) < 1299971365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*those elements < 1299971855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1299972077 0 :optbot!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | but using small numbers like 4 < 1299972184 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1299972262 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299972691 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1299972796 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1299973220 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aomori_Prefecture < 1299973232 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the way their symbol is just the province drawn simply. < 1299973239 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/province/prefecture/ < 1299973315 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1299973883 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1299973895 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1299974228 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving