00:20:33 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | From when they take effect.. 00:21:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:26:22 * Sgeo is watching Firefly 00:33:54 A chess variant about "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" should be invented. 00:34:37 lol 00:35:01 the spanish inquisition is kept in pocket 00:35:04 it has the moves of a knight 00:35:24 you can places it only if it attacks two or more non-pawn pieces or delivers check 00:36:12 Yes, OK. I like that idea. 00:36:35 My idea too was it is kept in pocket initially 00:37:14 Then it is something like Pocket Knight chess. 00:45:45 Whatever happened to Fourplay? 00:46:07 Sgeo: What is Fourplay? 00:46:13 I think I linked to that idiot's blog who mentioned Fourplay a while ago 00:46:20 Fourplay itself however is nt by idiots 00:46:26 It's a nomicchess 00:46:35 http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/fourplay.html 00:46:41 Probably not balanced, really 00:50:39 zzo38: LaTeX and Microsoft Word can be compared? 00:51:10 tswett: Maybe. 00:51:38 tswett: Are you at Stanford University? 00:52:01 tswett: apparently 00:52:08 No. I just know how to look the look. 00:52:16 OK. 00:58:26 zzo38: He's in Stanford IN THE FUTURE. 00:58:32 Like the Doctor. 00:59:22 Doctor? 00:59:57 Yes. 00:59:59 He operates the TARDIS 01:00:01 *TARDIS. 01:06:51 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:07:49 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:07:56 -!- elliott has joined. 01:15:40 Progress(TM): gcc have removed the option to inhibit warnings about #import without using -w, but not #import itself (despite wanting to deprecate it since 2003). 01:15:49 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:16:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:17:38 (Oh well, -Wno-deprecated works.) 01:25:43 -!- quintopia has joined. 01:25:43 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 01:25:43 -!- quintopia has joined. 01:25:48 My TeX chess program is not only for FIDE chess. So after I finished I can post to Chess Variants, too, since you can also use it for other games, not only for FIDE chess. 01:38:29 -!- quintopia has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 01:38:49 -!- quintopia has joined. 01:39:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:46:41 -!- jcp has joined. 01:55:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:05:37 -!- cheater00 has joined. 02:13:10 -!- augur has joined. 02:43:27 Vorpal: you know you ported c-intercal to mac os 9? 02:43:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:43:47 It came up again 02:43:51 The mysterious error 02:44:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:44:22 * Sgeo clicks Cancel in the hopes that whatever debugger comes up will give him a hint 02:44:38 Vorpal: I was thinking that it would be a lot easier if one simply wrote Cygwin for Mac OS. 02:44:40 Vorpal: SO CLEARLY IT MUST BE DONE. 02:45:02 And it must work on System Software 6, obviously. To become the best operating system! 02:45:04 Isn't OS X a UNIX? 02:45:19 Derivative of BSD, iirc? 02:45:38 Or am I flat out mistaken? (Or somewhere in the middle) 02:45:38 ' 02:46:04 No, I am not trying to make that into a list containing merely data and placing the ' on the wrong side 02:47:42 Nlo debugger came up 02:49:14 Mac OS X is UNIX. 02:49:29 zzo38: But older versions are not. 02:49:31 It even has a few GNU programs. 02:49:38 Quite a few, actually. 02:49:41 It comes with gcc and Emacs, for one. 02:49:49 And of course it's quite easy to compile your own. 02:49:55 Well, comes with; gcc is part of Xcode. 02:50:08 Yes, I know those things. 02:50:37 Is elliott ignoring me again? 02:51:17 Sgeo: mac is a derivative of mach and BSD 02:51:18 Sgeo: Maybe. I read your messages though. 02:51:36 and it has been certified as UNIX 02:51:40 variable: Heavens, it's much more fun than that! 02:52:06 elliott: well yeah - it has its own stuff as well. It was mainly BSD + Mach + Cool looking shell 02:52:09 variable: Mac OS X's kernel is XNU. XNU is 4.3BSD updated to FreeBSD, *running on top of Mach*. 02:52:31 Kind of like NT. 02:52:34 Win32 runs on top of NT. 02:52:38 elliott: yeah: I know 02:52:49 variable: But then drivers are written in a subset of C++ separately... for no apparent reason :) 02:53:02 Except not quite, as Win32 is merely an API implemented on top of NT. 02:53:09 pikhq: No; Win32 is a subsystem. 02:53:16 Quite a bit more. 02:53:18 Whereas XNU has an entire BSD kernel running on top of Mach. 02:53:20 OK, so it's the Windows subsystem with the Win32 API. 02:53:21 But. 02:53:23 elliott: because c++ has saner type safety and allows one to use nicer features like classes without exposing implementation 02:53:45 variable: (1) I mean, why not use the BSD driver layer, and (2) I don't buy OOP propaganda :) 02:53:56 Rather: I think that the goal of abstraction is obviously an admirable one, but I don't believe OOP is the best way to do it. 02:54:00 elliott: I wasn't think OOP (which has little to do with classes) 02:54:01 elliott: The OS X setup is more analogous to User Mode Linux than anything else, really. 02:54:15 variable, ...saner than C, I assume. I assume that other languages are out of the question, otherwise "C++ is sane" is.. silly 02:54:24 pikhq: Not quite. Mach is *designed* to have kernels run underneath it. 02:54:33 pikhq: I mean, what do you think Hurd runs on top of? 02:54:34 Mach. 02:54:39 Sgeo: yes; 02:54:51 elliott: hurd, runs? 02:54:52 :-p 02:54:54 Yes, but it's also designed to have those kernels actually *use* Mach. 02:54:58 (that was in jest) 02:55:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:55:17 Instead of, uh, using it as a pointless abstraction layer. 02:55:38 variable: It doesn't even support USB! :) 02:55:59 pikhq: It isn't *quite* pointless. 02:56:05 Surely if Linux never existed, Hurd would be further along... 02:56:06 pikhq: Mach gives the OS soft real-time support, for one. 02:56:16 pikhq: And more importantly, the drivers run on top of Mach instead of BSD. 02:56:23 = SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED. 02:56:40 Also, a lot of OS X drivers run in user-space, which would be "fun" to do with BSD. 02:57:12 Well, Linux actually has quite a few user-space drivers by now... 02:58:04 Not in the 90s when nextstep was created :) 02:58:14 1986. 02:58:37 pikhq: Anyway, RATE MY IDEA OF WRITING CYGWIN FOR MAC. 02:59:26 Join #microcosm. 02:59:26 :P 02:59:47 pikhq: AFAIK microcosm can't actually run anything yet :P 03:00:13 It can run a few trivial things... 03:00:36 pikhq: And I VERY MUCH DOUBT microcosm would work on a platform without stdin/out, with no more than ANSI C (unless you wrote Mac OS Classic-specific code!), ... 03:00:46 pikhq: ... I doubt it will yield to other processes, ... 03:00:58 Oh, Mac OS Classic? 03:01:08 pikhq: Yep. 03:01:12 Yeah, that'd need to be a full kernel. 03:01:15 pikhq: Mac OS X needs no Unix :P 03:01:23 pikhq: What does Microcosm target, anyway? 03:01:27 If it only works on other Unices it's a bit useless. 03:01:37 elliott: Any vaguely modern OS. 03:01:54 Not far away from Windows :trollface: 03:01:56 pikhq: Also, not necessarily a kernel; all Unix functions could yield. 03:02:02 pikhq: Then only tight loops would lock up. 03:02:11 pikhq: DOS has this problem, for instance :) 03:02:28 pikhq: It'd be NICE to multitask with tight loops, but... 03:02:41 pikhq: And I think you could hook a "stop it!" key right to the OS to terminate them. 03:05:16 pikhq: Also, a Unix with only 8 megs of ram: FUN? 03:05:50 You can manage that without any real effort. 03:06:00 It just isn't going to be doing anything too fancy. 03:06:05 pikhq: I WANT TO RUN GCC ON IT 03:06:15 Give up now. 03:07:14 pikhq: djgpp ran with only 2 megs of ram at the start... 03:07:16 (early 90s) 03:07:17 gcc 03:07:26 pikhq: I could just port gcc 2 :) 03:07:57 Okay, you could probably get older GCC working fine. 03:08:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:08:18 *Modern* GCC can suck up gigs if you look at it wrong. 03:08:18 pikhq: And BASH 03:09:26 pikhq: Seriously though, Mac OS is PERFECT for this. 03:09:35 pikhq: You basically run as your own OS with a large graphical API. 03:13:19 pikhq: In fact, if I implemented my own timer, I could do proper multithreading... 03:13:22 As in, preemptive. 03:13:45 pikhq: Awesomely though, every Unix application would stop if you tabbed away. 03:14:03 Hah, forcing Mac OS into proper multithreading. 03:14:57 pikhq: I dunno if it's worth it though :p 03:28:29 > enumFrom 3 03:28:30 [3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,... 03:41:22 Hmm... Did British Secondary Prevention Trial inadvertently end up reproducing Lyon Diet-Heart stydy (one of the most successful dietary trials ever) in reverse? 03:53:12 -!- augur has joined. 03:54:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:58:10 Ilari: What is that? 04:00:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:05:24 -!- augur has joined. 04:09:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:12:44 elliott: i see you have discussed optbot more. i'd like to repeat/point out that my basic executive decision in this case is that if optbot is to change the topic, it _must_ look at the topic that is already set, and preserve what others have put there. i suggest changing only the part after the last |. 04:12:44 oerjan: What does `ls' do on VMS 04:12:56 oerjan: when was that your executive decision? 04:13:02 I don't recall you ever saying that, not in 2008 and not in 2011 04:13:12 and that was never optbot's behaviour 04:13:12 elliott: what do you think about that? 04:13:13 ...earlier today... 04:13:25 not according to herobrine 04:13:36 well it's what i _thought_. 04:14:20 well, i'll just take it down then, since it'd be a huge pain to make the code do that, and also generate really clipped topics because of the limit 04:15:13 ok i may have also allowed an actual optbot command that other people than you can use. 04:15:13 oerjan: I see 04:15:26 oerjan: that'd still clip topics 04:15:57 i'd point out that both options are considerably more lenient than what some other people suggested. 04:16:14 Another option is just remove the topic changing. 04:16:15 some other people = Gregor 04:16:23 and zzo38 04:16:40 -!- azaq23 has joined. 04:16:45 where's your sense of fun gone i ask! 04:17:37 Another another option is that it changes immediately if the log URL is missing, otherwise it changes it seven days after the previous change (including changes by other users). 04:18:23 zzo38: it appears that elliott does not think actually paying attention to TOPIC commands is a reasonable change. 04:18:33 It's not about reasonability, it's about feasibility. 04:18:54 The topic limit <<< the message limit, and optbot does messages, + the overhead it has now is about max before it sarts chopping unreasonably 04:18:54 elliott: http://www.google.com/search?q=x-directory&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a#hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:unofficial&&sa=X&ei=b6bZTJbjCOaV4gbn2qS8CA&ved=0CBEQvgUoAA&q=%2B%22application/x-directory%22&nfpr=1&fp=8ec2bc6eb6ca6ae0 04:19:01 Then, just make it never change the topic message. 04:19:12 that's 50% of the fun of optbot, so i'd rather take it down. 04:19:12 elliott: i meant to run it in the Integer -> Program direction, fwiw 04:19:27 elliott: well _most_ irc messages aren't that long. 04:19:38 oerjan: no, but the topic limit is quite a bit less. 04:19:39 200 or so less 04:19:46 um 04:19:46 and it has a hundred or so overhead. 04:19:59 TOPICLEN=390 04:20:15 ok, 100 less or so 04:20:19 i think the message limit including nick prefix is 510 or so 04:20:41 Or change the message only when "PRIVMSG optbot :TOPIC" is received, is another way. 04:20:41 zzo38: no! 04:20:46 optbot: No? 04:20:46 zzo38: But seriously, nobody would pay that much for a drive. 04:21:03 Do it for free then. 04:22:06 elliott: hm a suggestion, put a link to tunes in your own logs, then we can remove tunes from the topic. 04:22:32 oerjan: that might work, but does not solve the issue that user-added topics will be far longer anyway. 04:22:32 (you may have already done so afaik, i only visit individual dates) 04:22:39 i have not. 04:23:16 No I don't like it, I think tunes log should always be available there it is the official policy. 04:23:53 zzo38: um the official policy surely is that _some_ logs must be there if there are any... 04:24:12 You could delete the word "logs:" and write "http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | " as the prefix. 04:24:19 Since "logs" is in the URL. 04:24:25 it doesn't need logs in the URL. 04:25:18 zzo38: does it? 04:26:16 elliott: It doesn't, but since "logs" is already in the URL, the prefix "logs: " can be removed. However, I (and others) still think you should make it optbot not changing topic message. 04:40:19 optbot! 04:40:19 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I KNOW. 04:40:23 i see 04:42:41 ok current compromise is a 12 hour timeout after anyone changes the topic. 04:42:49 -!- zzo38 has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I DON'T KNOW. 04:43:25 oerjan: That might work. Keeping track of the last change of *anyone* is important. 04:44:12 if/when something longer is needed, either elliott or an op should be able to take action in that time. 04:44:35 compromise for when i'm not lazy, mind you. 04:44:57 (i'm just summarizing mine and elliott's private conversation so it's official) 04:45:05 elliott: OK, then for now just disable that feature until you get less lazy to be able to correct it. 04:45:06 we don't have private conversations 04:45:07 what are you talking about? 04:45:24 zzo38: nah; if someone really has something desperately urgent to put in the topic in the next few days, oerjan or fizzie can +t 04:45:32 it's a mythical situation, but just in case :) 04:45:36 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:45:36 then I'll fix it, because I'll be less lazy. 04:45:41 elliott: it was done by telepathy. your consciousness may not have perceived it yet. 04:45:53 -!- augur has joined. 04:46:01 oerjan: OW 04:46:05 oerjan: that hurt :( 04:46:08 expect strange dreams. 04:46:20 * elliott backs slowly away from oerjan 04:46:24 you weren't joking about the wet furry porn 04:46:38 I often have a strange dream 04:46:39 ha 04:47:07 A lot (not all) of them, is ones with no words (or picture) to explain. 04:47:20 i dream about tortoises 04:48:14 And what kind of reason is there in such dreams why Achilles cannot catch the Tortoise? 04:48:15 i had a dream this morning 04:48:21 about an airport 04:48:36 where you have to get on a conveyor belt and lie down 04:48:57 and it just does all the airporty stuff while you lay there and wait for it to take you to your plane 04:48:59 i approve 04:49:55 it was poorly designed in the dream, but the basic premise would be nice 04:50:47 It would work for tired people with no packages, no money, and no hunger. 04:51:12 no packages are fine, they can also go on the belt. 04:51:24 It might work a little bit in some other cases too, possibly, but I don't know quite. 04:51:54 no money? 04:52:00 Do they need to put the separator bars so you know whose package it is? 04:52:03 `addquote It would work for tired people with no packages, no money, and no hunger. 04:52:58 also you could solve the hunger part by having some of those things from manufacturing belts that they use to fill food packages 04:53:03 Separator bars might help a little bit in current airport, but then barcodes would also be required. Otherwise you always lose all packages 04:53:21 you better be positioned right on the belt when that happens 04:53:42 quintopia: do the tsa just run up to you and grope you? 04:53:48 "this won't take a second." 04:53:49 oerjan: Still, if you are tired you might prefer to be lying on the conveyor belt. Other people who are not tired might prefer to stand up. 04:54:00 nobody likes standing up 04:54:20 elliott: hey they could give an actual MRI scan then. would solve that bombs in your cavities problem. 04:54:30 Or else, sit down on the chair and go in the plane from walking outside. 04:54:34 I've got a bomb in my cavity hur hur I don't even know what that would mean 04:54:37 I posted a dream of mine online a while ago 04:54:41 CLEARLY THIS IS THE FUTURE 04:54:44 Ok, so that's 3 dreams 04:54:47 But lying down on conveyor belt would help if you are tired. 04:54:48 http://www.dreamviews.com/f107/sgeos-dream-journal-53892/ 04:54:48 And http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/sgeo/alternate-universe-elevator-1827/ 04:55:04 elliott: disturbingly, it can mean exactly what it sounds like. 04:55:16 oerjan: you mean a thing that can blow up in my cavity?!?!?!?! 04:55:16 OMG 04:55:41 oh wait, just got another telepathic communication from you. jesus christ. well, now i know what "i've got a bomb in my cavity" could mean. 04:55:46 not sure i want to though. 04:56:16 elliott: ROBOTS DO THE GROPING. THEY HAVE NO FEELING. THEY WON'T POP A BONER.\ 04:56:20 No output. 04:56:44 quintopia: but do they handle the recipient ``popping a boner'' to use your crude American terminology? 04:56:49 mind you an MRI scan would give new meaning to the "please remove metal objects" part 04:57:02 Is HackEgo broken again? 04:57:19 maybe the airport could just have a total nudity rule. 04:57:22 also, total goatse rule. 04:57:25 could hide nothing! 04:57:35 elliott: i'll leave it to you to design a robot that can tell the difference between a pipe bomb and 04:57:59 enemabot! 04:58:17 elliott: i'm sure i've seen approximations to that joke (well not the goatse) in several comics, including dilbert. 04:58:31 actually, maybe even the goatse. 04:58:44 Regardless of how they do it, I no longer go on airplanes anyways; I have already for a few years, decided to stop using airport. 04:58:46 * oerjan is not quite sure about that. 04:59:51 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 05:00:50 zzo38: have you ever been on an aeroplane? 05:02:55 elliott: Yes I have once. But even then, and even more now, they do all stupid things with the surveillance, lost packages, prohibition of items on planes, and various other things. 05:03:10 zzo38: i think they shouldn't prohibit bombs on planes. What do you think? 05:03:22 So, just go by boat if you need to go across the ocean. 05:03:49 oerjan: :D 05:04:20 zzo38: i prefer to go overseas by train 05:04:25 elliott: I'm not sure, but I meant other things, such as nail files, toner cartridges, pencil and paper, and a lot of others. 05:04:34 elliott: Is there a train in the water? 05:04:41 Yes. 05:04:43 The WATERTAIN 05:04:47 It exists, in your imagination 05:05:27 * oerjan wonders if the dilbert one may even have been pre-2001 05:05:57 i mean it's precisely the kind of dystopian idea scott adams _would_ get 05:06:12 trying to remember why i hate scott sdams 05:06:13 *adams 05:06:49 elliott: i assume his comics have degraded like most long-time runners, and now he sucks? 05:06:52 I had a dream once, there was various clubs in a building, for the pokemon element types, and also the administration club. The administration club was not permitted to have any members. 05:06:55 oerjan: no no unrelated to his comics 05:07:06 oerjan: he posted some ridiculously stupid anti-scientific thing to his blog once so i started hating him 05:07:11 ah. some absurd opinion... 05:07:13 it was relaly weird too 05:07:14 *really 05:07:30 oerjan: is that you going throough the list of things i mate hate people for? 05:07:31 *typos 05:08:08 http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/08/poster-child-fo.html ;; well here he misinterprets "atheist" and is stupid about it. 05:08:22 zzo38: i prefer to go overseas by train <-- underseas, you mean 05:08:27 no. 05:08:29 the train floats 05:08:56 elliott: It probably is not a train, even if they call it a train, it isn't. 05:09:01 it is. 05:09:10 there's railtracks under the water, it grows legs to connect to them 05:09:43 zzo38: i am now going to annoy elliott by pointing out that he is joking. 05:09:44 Each pokemon element type club has two ways of being a member (and no payment is required). 05:10:13 oerjan: It exists, in your imagination 05:10:18 i cover my bases. 05:10:28 elliott: also not a list, i vaguely recall you mention that adams thing before 05:10:45 oerjan: not interesting enough to donate brain cpu cycles to :D 05:10:57 elliott: this is not cpu, it's memory 05:11:10 oerjan: it hogs cpu cycles to access memory and process it 05:11:12 like in a real computer 05:11:13 O, in your imagination, you can make it whatever you want including illogical things in seventeen thousand dimensional space with one is not both the same. 05:11:16 eek 05:11:18 thinking is much easier than remembering :) 05:11:27 well, quicker 05:11:30 remembering is less "work". 05:11:35 but it takes a long time. 05:11:43 oerjan: what i'm saying is, use Checkout for your brain, bro 05:12:10 i saw this train 05:12:10 it was in Spirited Away 05:12:10 went right along the water 05:13:13 i vaguely remember that! 05:13:19 spirited away is kinda one big gob in my head. 05:13:20 zzo38: seventeen thousand dimensional space is not illogical, mind you. although maybe a little inconvenient. 05:14:10 Sgeo: I also had some dream about not push the buttons in elevator door. 05:14:20 uh huh 05:14:22 well actually for linear algebra it may even be convenient. 05:14:22 and what happened 05:14:26 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:14:37 oerjan: I did not mean that 17000 dimension space is illogical, I meant you have illogical imagination things in it. 05:15:35 right 05:15:35 -!- jix has joined. 05:15:52 Here is URL about my dream (look for the line with "*I was looking at programs for different programming languages." for the one about the elevator button) 05:15:55 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/misc/weird_dream/dream.txt 05:16:22 The one with @ instead of * is somebody else, I just collected the information. The one with * is my own. 05:17:37 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:18:16 -!- tswett has joined. 05:18:23 Undefined things happened. 05:18:47 -!- azaq23 has joined. 05:19:34 Sgeo: In a dream, such things is possible as undefined things happened. 05:19:45 * Sgeo goes to press a random button in zzo38's elevator 05:21:41 beware of the button saying "outer space" 05:22:21 you will _not_ enjoy it when the doors open 05:22:55 zzo38: have your dreams ever solved major problems in real life? 05:23:14 zzo38: for instance, the answer to what's the difference between a duck? 05:23:30 * oerjan swats quintopia -----### 05:23:40 Not as far as I can remember. However, I cannot remember, so I don't know. 05:23:46 btw did you finish your scoring system 05:24:05 What scoring system? Whose scoring system? 05:24:10 quintopia's 05:24:16 for bfjoust 05:24:51 you mean 05:25:13 modifying report.c 05:25:16 iirc 05:25:47 did i code it? 05:25:48 because, i'm too lazy to reimplement linear algebra, and i've heard gregor will not allow lapack, so i have to wait on him to tell me with linear algebra library i'm allowed to use. 05:25:54 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:25:57 ah. 05:26:21 i thought that might be a stumbling block :/ 05:26:30 I didn't say I wouldn't ALLOW lapack, just that I wasn't going to learn it myself just to write a friggin' BFJoust scoreboard calculator :P 05:27:15 oic. so if i learn it, you'll allow it? 05:27:33 Well, so long as it's reasonably easy to install :P 05:27:39 I assume it's in Debian. 05:28:00 probs. iunno. 05:29:32 http://packages.qa.debian.org/l/lapack.html 05:45:59 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 05:48:41 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:51:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:52:33 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:52:37 -!- aloril has joined. 05:52:52 -!- SimonRC has joined. 05:54:59 -!- cheater00 has quit (*.net *.split). 05:54:59 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split). 05:54:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 05:54:59 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 05:54:59 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 06:08:21 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood). 06:08:25 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:10:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:11:43 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:15:52 -!- cheater00 has joined. 06:15:54 -!- shachaf has joined. 06:15:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:15:54 -!- Leonidas has joined. 06:15:54 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 06:20:22 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | It's just a few vetical pixels at the top.. 06:20:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:22:30 Vorpal: I was thinking that it would be a lot easier if one simply wrote Cygwin for Mac OS. Vorpal: SO CLEARLY IT MUST BE DONE. <-- oh my 06:26:22 pikhq: And I think you could hook a "stop it!" key right to the OS to terminate them. <-- MacBugs? 06:27:31 pikhq: I dunno if it's worth it though :p <-- depends on what standard. #esoteric? Hell yeah! 06:27:34 bbl 06:36:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:39:20 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:39:27 -!- SimonRC has joined. 06:57:37 -!- augur has joined. 07:02:23 xkcd :D 07:04:47 man, my respect for Al Gore just went up 07:06:38 Why, pray tell? 07:08:29 I read about how he, as president of the senate, correctly enforced a rule that ultimately led to him losing the election 07:10:00 Mmm. 07:10:42 -!- TLUL has joined. 07:12:23 the specific rule was that challenging a state's electoral result requires the signature of a representative and a senator from that state, and there was no senator signed on 07:19:53 Aaah. 07:20:18 Shame, too. Al Gore damned well should've been President. 07:20:28 Aaaand may or may not have actually won. 07:22:34 but he upheld the law and denied himself the opportunity to win; which is very honorable 07:24:46 -!- elliott has joined. 07:24:53 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 07:24:53 -!- elliott has joined. 07:25:20 also, fun legal fact: the constitution of canada is not a set whose elements are all known 07:27:00 I thought Canada actually had a well-defined legal system? 07:27:08 We have a constitution act which says 07:27:14 (2) The Constitution of Canada includes 07:27:15 (a) the Canada Act 1982, including this Act; 07:27:15 (b) the Acts and orders referred to in the schedule; and 07:27:15 (c) any amendment to any Act or order referred to in paragraph (a) or (b). 07:27:26 however, it also includes a bunch of other things 07:27:32 like parliamentary privelege 07:27:53 which has in particular been confirmed by the supreme court to actually be a part of the constitution 07:28:06 Unlike the UK, where even the premise of the government being divine right isn't well-defined... 07:28:31 coppro: ... Oh, great, your supreme court is as fucking nuts as ours. 07:28:50 actually, I think I have to agree 07:29:11 privelege is mentioned in the constitution act but never explicitly defined 07:29:21 wonder how long humans can actually keep up this only sleeping every other day thing 07:29:25 I see nothing in clause 2 of the Constitution Act there that would include parliamentary privilege... 07:29:33 any guesse;sdf? 07:29:47 18. The privileges, immunities, and powers to be held, enjoyed, and exercised by the Senate and by the House of Commons, and by the members thereof respectively, shall be such as are from time to time defined by Act of the Parliament of Canada, but so that any Act of the Parliament of Canada defining such privileges, immunities, and powers shall not confer any privileges, immunities, or powers exceeding those at the passing of such Act held, 07:29:59 elliott: Depends: how long are you sleeping? 07:29:59 from a different part of the constitution act 07:30:13 pikhq: too long... like 11 hrs, but would be 12 if not for alarms andsuch 07:30:25 coppro: Yup, definitely not in the Canadian constitution. Merely means of defining such. 07:32:01 * elliott is a mess. 07:32:01 yeah 07:32:01 but it's better than waking up at 5pm. 07:32:01 i hate my circadian rhythm :( 07:32:01 elliott: You almost certainly have a sleeping disorder. 07:32:01 in this particular case, the privilege was the long-standing parliamentary privilege of excluding strangers; a TV company wanted to film the proceedings of the Nova Scotian legislature, but the legislature wouldn't let the cameras in 07:32:01 feeling tired already, definitely a record, probably should have slept this time, oh well, coffee 07:32:01 Of course, that much we already knew. 07:32:01 the TV company cited freedom of speech, of course 07:32:01 pikhq: i'm fucking buying melatonin today 07:32:01 coppro: Strange that they'd cite the constitution for that. 07:32:07 coppro: Surely freedom of speech doesn't mandate that they have the right to record everything, everywhere? 07:32:34 06:06:41 Vorpal: I was thinking that it would be a lot easier if one simply wrote Cygwin for Mac OS. Vorpal: SO CLEARLY IT MUST BE DONE. <-- oh my 07:32:35 06:10:34 pikhq: And I think you could hook a "stop it!" key right to the OS to terminate them. <-- MacBugs? 07:32:35 06:11:43 pikhq: I dunno if it's worth it though :p <-- depends on what standard. #esoteric? Hell yeah! 07:32:38 (1) yes, yes indeed 07:32:43 (3) i mean the "make tight loops not hang" thing 07:32:44 coppro: Also strange that you don't have your proceedings recorded already... I know here that the federal government *itself* actually does video recording of the entire proceedings of Congress. 07:32:44 pikhq: No, but the SCC decided that the privilege is itself constitutional and thus not subject to obeying the rights set out in the Charter 07:33:01 pikhq: can i have so much coffee 07:33:06 coppro: How very strange; I'd think that human rights would be irrelevant. 07:33:38 pikhq: it's gets muddled when it's government business, because there are some very deep rights there 07:33:51 a citizen's right to know what the government is doing, and the government's right not to tell them 07:34:14 The federal government here records the House of Commons and committees of both chambers; the Senate itself has not authorized video recordings 07:34:26 transcripts are available in both French and English by the next day online 07:34:38 (which is, incidentally, absolutely insane) 07:35:04 (they also do live translation of proceedings so that anyone can participate in either language) 07:35:25 "Aaaah", multilingual society. 07:35:38 Though if our government was *sane*, they'd probably have to do the same. 07:35:43 hah 07:35:48 Remember, the US has *no* official language at all. 07:35:58 add spanish? 07:36:11 That is but *one* important language in the US. 07:36:13 or gangsta? 07:36:43 Perhaps the one most likely to be relevant... 07:36:55 pikhq: i should make cygmac work on system software 1 :D 07:37:21 But there's rather a *lot* of languages spoken here, even if you discount those languages which have mostly bilingual native speakers. 07:37:48 popping the stack a little, the issue that is really sticky about the scope of the constitution is that the constitution says that an amendment to the constitution that changes the composition of the Supreme Court requires unanimous consent of the provinces. 07:37:55 Sounds great, except for one minor detail 07:38:46 the composition of the Supreme Court is defined in the Supreme Court of Canada Act, which is not in the schedule 07:39:16 some people hold this to mean that this requirement on amendment would apply only if the SCC were explicitly moved into the constitution 07:39:27 others hold it to mean that the SCCA is implicitly part of the constitution 07:40:03 *groan* 07:40:28 *Supreme Court Act 07:40:32 Pushing to the stack again. There's 35 million people who speak primarily Spanish in the US. *Damn*. 07:40:55 Making the USA have the second-largest Spanish-speaking community in the world. 07:41:06 moreover, the SCA predates that part of the constitution by a long time 07:41:08 what the hell 07:41:12 thati sn't pushing to the stack 07:41:15 thats calling the continuation 07:41:24 elliott: Fuck you and your "accurate semantics". 07:41:24 your conversational control structures are spaghetti 07:41:31 dijkstra disapprvoes 07:41:37 moreover, this is potentially relevant as there is a bill passing through the Senate right now to change the selection requirements for Supreme Court justices, although I expect it has about a snowball's chance in hell of actually passing 07:41:38 man wyh do yyou have to type the keys in order 07:41:41 that's a bad thing about keyboards. 07:41:53 should just press them all at once, and it uses a dictionary :/ 07:42:09 coppro: T3h groans. 07:42:12 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:42:21 (and it would fail if the supreme court is found to be part of the constitution as it would then require a bunch of provinces to agree) 07:42:42 (although, oddly enough, it would make it irrelevant that the Conservatives control the Senate) 07:43:22 you're currently in the spanish stack frame 07:43:25 thoguht you should know 07:43:55 elliott: no, I stayed behind; it's a cactus stack 07:44:17 coppro: your conversational system is so inelegant. horrible hacky whore language on top of spaghetti control. 07:44:25 elliott: I speak in Perl 07:44:27 from now on I will talk only in Has 07:45:47 uh oh, elliott's not currying properly 07:45:52 where's the nearest indian restaurant? 07:46:17 kell 07:46:24 you forced evaluati** Exception: undefined 07:46:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 07:46:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:48:04 pikhq_: what did you miss? 07:48:25 01:26 < coppro> (and it would fail if the supreme court is found to be part of the constitution as it would then require a bunch of provinces to agree) 07:48:29 Last line. 07:48:34 (although, oddly enough, it would make it irrelevant that the Conservatives control the Senate) 07:48:36 then some stack talk 07:48:39 03:26 < coppro> (although, oddly enough, it would make it irrelevant that the Conservatives control the Senate) 07:48:42 03:27 < elliott> you're currently in the spanish stack frame 07:48:45 pikhq_: use an irc bouncer or something srsly :P 07:48:45 03:27 < elliott> thoguht you should know 07:48:47 03:28 < coppro> elliott: no, I stayed behind; it's a cactus stack 07:48:50 03:28 < elliott> coppro: your conversational system is so inelegant. horrible hacky whore language on top of spaghetti control. 07:48:51 -!- elliott has left (?). 07:48:53 03:28 < coppro> elliott: I speak in Perl 07:48:53 -!- elliott has joined. 07:48:54 argh 07:48:55 03:28 < elliott> from now on I will talk only in Has 07:48:57 keys shouldn't do things 07:48:58 03:30 < coppro> uh oh, elliott's not currying properly 07:49:00 03:30 < coppro> where's the nearest indian restaurant? 07:49:03 03:30 < elliott> kell 07:49:03 i should have to hodl down every modifier I have to close the window 07:49:05 03:30 < elliott> you forced evaluati** Exception: undefined 07:49:08 lol 07:49:19 or with coppro maybe the opposite 07:49:24 if his message matches ".win" it just does it 07:49:34 loo 07:49:41 indeed. loo. 07:50:21 I need to hack my irssi so as to warn me every time I send a message that looks anything like a window switch 07:50:26 http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/basilisk_ii So does anyone see a source link on this page? 07:50:29 because i don't 07:50:41 unless they just compile the old jit release they call a historic archive 07:50:52 coppro: do what i do, only be in two channels, so much less confusing 07:50:56 still manage to part them on a regular basis tho 07:51:15 I don't 07:51:26 elliott: I'm at about 25 07:51:43 your method sounds lame 07:51:53 i think my natural hatred of people helps me stay out of too many channels 07:52:02 i miss nothing! 07:52:21 ah, yeah, people are dumb 07:52:37 yeah. specially elliott 07:52:40 he's the dumbest 07:52:49 yupyup 07:52:55 only sleeps once every two days 07:52:57 what kind of moron does that 07:53:15 my school 07:53:20 faculty, anyway 07:53:27 it 07:53:30 is not vey efficient 07:53:37 you know, usually i even fix typos 07:53:43 but that seems pretty hard at this point 07:53:44 my faculty is very efficient 07:53:51 we have an entire combinatorics and optimization department 07:54:00 can you just never sleepif you drink enough coffee, i think this might be practical for me 07:54:06 no 07:54:13 do you have proof? 07:54:17 yes 07:54:20 i need strong disproof. 07:54:29 as in mathematical. saying "oh a bunch of people did this and died" doesn't count. 07:54:32 start from peano arithmetic 07:54:46 I time traveled to the future and brought back your corpse after you went insane, thought yourself an automobile, and got run over on the motorway 07:54:52 you may assume as an axiom that things exist 07:55:00 that is the one additional axiom you may assume 07:55:18 that axiom is inconsistent with the coffee axiom 07:55:25 coffee makes things not exist? 07:55:26 deep. 07:55:33 in sufficiently large quantities, yes 07:55:34 almost as deep as the sleep i'd like to be in. 07:55:36 hallucinations 07:55:45 yeah unfortunately i haven't hallucinated yet with this sleep dep 07:55:47 quite disappointing 07:55:47 black is white 07:55:50 mostly i'm just irritable and tired 07:55:50 up is down 07:55:52 hallu would be fun 07:55:52 short is long 07:56:03 things would be unicorns and stuff, hallucinations are obviously just like nethack 07:56:06 coppro: omg, but short is only 16 bits. 07:56:13 sleep dep gives boring hallucinations 07:56:19 elliott: everything you know is wrong 07:56:22 just forget the words and sing along 07:56:30 sleep dep gives boring hallucinations 07:56:32 better than nothing 07:56:42 not really 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:01:55 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:55 checking for gcc... gcc-4.5 08:01:55 checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... no 08:01:55 checking whether gcc-4.5 accepts -g... no 08:01:57 "uh." 08:02:18 lol 08:02:38 configure:4076: checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler 08:02:39 configure:4095: gcc-4.5 -c conftest.c >&5 08:02:39 configure:4095: $? = 0 08:02:39 configure: failed program was: 08:02:39 um. 08:02:44 $? = 0 means it worked, autoconf. 08:03:18 lolwut 08:03:30 it keeps assuming that because it worked and $? was 0 that everything failed after that :) 08:03:38 which explains why it's all "oh no, you don't have any headers basically". 08:03:53 configure:4255: gcc-4.5 -qlanglvl=extc89 -c conftest.c >&5 08:03:53 gcc-4.5: unrecognized option '-qlanglvl=extc89' 08:03:53 configure:4255: $? = 0 08:03:53 configure: failed program was: 08:03:58 what. 08:23:39 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*). 08:29:47 what's the best archive format to distribute code for a 68k mac emulator in 08:29:52 obviously the author of mini vmac 08:29:58 decided "a macintosh disk image" 08:30:16 i swear to god, it's a bootstrapped mac emulator 08:33:29 To play devil's advocate here, can't OS X mount those old disk images? 08:36:40 pikhq_: nope 08:36:45 pikhq_: but more importantl 08:36:46 y 08:36:53 pikhq_: the build system is a mac os <=6 application 08:37:02 i'm not joking 08:37:17 pikhq_: 08:37:17 http://minivmac.sourceforge.net/doc/build.html 08:37:20 First download the source code archive from the download page, a file with the name “minivmac-3.1.3.src.zip”. Extract from this zip file a disk image (named “minivmac-3.1.3.src.dsk”). 08:37:20 Now launch Mini vMac (version 3.0.0 or later), booting from a disk image containing a system folder. (The source code disk image doesn't contain a system folder.) (See the Start page for information about getting started with Mini vMac.) 08:37:20 Mount the source code disk image in Mini vMac. At the top level of this disk is an application named "Build". Launch this application. A text editing window will open in which to type in the desired options. 08:37:27 pikhq_: it's literally a bootstrapped macintosh emulator. 08:37:39 source distributed as a macintosh boot image, compileable with a macintosh, or a prebuilt verison of itself. 08:37:41 *version 08:37:59 pikhq_: you will note that this is insane. It does CROSS COMPILING 08:38:05 Or... wait. 08:38:16 OK, it... extracts into the host system or something. 08:38:21 So its configure is just a mac app I DON'T KNOW 08:38:22 IT'S INSANE 08:39:18 *Holy fuck*. 08:39:43 I should sleep. It's 02:23. 08:39:48 haha 08:39:49 noob o clock 08:40:22 And I intend to do my diff eq. homework before class tomorrow. 09:11:02 pikhq_: echo hello >:foo.c; cp foo.c ::; mv ::foo.c :bar.c 09:11:09 BEHOLD: MAC PATHNAMES IN UNIX 09:27:26 -!- Guest1055 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:32:58 -!- Guest1055 has joined. 09:45:11 elliott: whence? how? 09:45:24 olsner: in my mind!! with magic!!! 09:45:37 olsner: i want to implement cygwin for classic mac os. and even have a vague idea how. 09:45:54 wow, that's .. suitably crazy 09:46:03 olsner: not cygwin itself, but, you know 09:46:05 unix layer 09:46:17 olsner: oh, and i want it to work on System Software 6 too. :) 09:46:27 generally broken layer of brokenness on top of a broken os, check 09:46:29 which looks like this. http://www.operating-system.org/betriebssystem/bsgfx/apple/system6-scr-03.jpg 09:46:43 olsner: old classic mac os isn't broken, just... selective... as to what it wants to acheive 09:46:49 i.e. almost nothing 09:46:57 nice redefinition of not broken there 09:47:20 says the person using the broken os linux 09:47:47 yep 09:54:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:11:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 10:11:57 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:21:43 Come on little mac, load the page, load the page! 10:21:46 Do the communication! 10:29:20 -!- cheater99 has joined. 10:30:51 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:35:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:35:53 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:43:02 -!- Kufiyeh has joined. 10:44:22 -!- Kufiyeh has quit (Client Quit). 10:45:09 -!- Kufiyeh has joined. 10:53:37 -!- Kufiyeh has left (?). 11:06:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:12:26 http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/ 11:12:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:31:22 12:36:04 AnMaster: that doesn't solve the issue, in fact it introduces an issue, that being that the tabstops are no longer 8 11:31:22 this log has so much circular logic it hurts 11:38:34 maybe he's trolling? 11:45:05 olsner: unfortunately not 11:45:19 unless it's a really persistent troll that he's kept up for years and strongly abides by :) 11:45:49 (the "TABS=8 AND EVERYONE WHO THINKS TABS!=8 EVER IS WRONG" thing; not that he ever gives a decent argument for it, but this was basically like 3 hours of circular argumentation from him in the logs) 11:45:49 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:45:53 (kinda zassprating) 11:46:09 -!- Vorpal has joined. 11:47:01 hey Vorpal, does that ick on mac classic thing actually work :) 11:48:56 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:49:00 -!- elliott_ has joined. 11:49:07 Vorpal: where did you download mpw from anyway 11:50:27 It used to be on Apple's FTP, at least. 11:50:41 The FTP links at http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/ seem dead at the moment, though. 11:50:48 that's why i done the asking 11:50:53 because i'm the what? 11:51:39 Well, it wasn't long ago (less than three years, I'd guess) that it still worked. 11:51:46 yes but the port thing was 2009. 11:52:01 i pretty much just want mpw 3 so i can write a unix kernel for system 6 :D 11:52:05 tbh i might want to develop on a later version 11:52:09 vmac can only do original res 11:54:03 How about http://mirrors.vanadac.com/ftp.apple.com/developer/Tool_Chest/Core_Mac_OS_Tools/MPW_etc./ then? 11:54:38 fizzie: whoaa. it's reflecting into my screen-space-visor-vision. 11:54:41 how'd you do that 11:55:01 to to figure out what GM vs PR is 11:55:05 Still haven't slept, eh? 11:55:14 fizzie: uh. i deny nothing. 11:55:19 that is to say... 11:55:22 i nothing deny 11:55:53 "The MPW-GM folder contains a complete Golden Master version of the MPW development environment including the MPW Shell, tools, interfaces and libraries. The software in this folder is considered to be "final" quality. The MPW-PR folder contains Pre-Release versions of some of the software components that make up the MPW development environment." 11:56:24 The Game Master version. 11:56:34 o k 11:56:41 isn't this just the newest version? 11:57:01 i kind of require the version that works on system software 6 which i think is 3 and erliar :) 11:57:25 Ahm'k; that might be more problemostic, yes. 11:57:54 The FTP'd one does require 7.5. 11:58:04 fizzie: whoa. this is how you sneak your bad spellungs into my mindbrane!! 11:58:11 you do it, when i am not conscious, in the fullest degree!!! 11:58:16 that's sneaky and you're bad! i have noticed this! 11:58:25 wonder if i could stick to the ceiling 11:59:29 apply enough duck/duct/gaffer tape and I bet you could 12:00:32 Curiously enough, "jesus tape" is the most common Finnish nickname for it. Or even "jesse" or some-such. 12:00:36 -!- variable has joined. 12:01:13 jesus tpae. that's nice i like that 12:12:08 database metallurgy 12:13:39 database metallurgy? 12:13:59 ya 12:14:06 my operationg system is based on it 12:19:40 pikhq: Well, v075 works. 12:20:11 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Uh, I had a question but I've almost forgotten it.. 12:38:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:42:50 hi ais523 12:42:56 hi 12:43:26 ais523: inspired by the port of C-INTERCAL to classic Mac OS, I have become highly tempted to try writing Cygwin for Classic Mac OS 12:43:38 because, perfect match, right? 12:43:45 (not actual Cygwin, just... a unix layer) 12:43:45 wow, that's a thought that my mind can't actually finish thinking 12:43:48 it gets stuck halfway through 12:43:51 :D 12:43:53 so it must be a really incredibly bad idea 12:44:06 ais523: yes, and really incredibly bad ideas are also known as really good ideas! 12:44:08 and I will now attempt to forget what it was to save my sanity 12:44:08 at least _here_ 12:44:44 ais523: Well hey, C-INTERCAL supports m86k-macos-unknown-mpw (or whatever the thing would be), get ready to support m86k-macos-unknown-gnu! 12:44:45 OR SOMETHING 12:44:50 ais523: Did that patch ever get committed, btw? 12:44:53 no 12:44:57 ais523: why not? 12:45:05 not by me because I didn't review it 12:45:10 not by esr because it didn't have timestamps 12:45:16 I'm not sure which reason is more spurious 12:45:19 timestamps?? 12:45:28 as in, the changes weren't dated with when they were made 12:45:32 does that _matter_? 12:45:35 also, you could just say you were looking for an excuse to reject it :P 12:46:49 ais523: anyway, C-INTERCAL bugreport: the configure script doesn't run on i386-win32-unknown-gnu 12:47:02 ais523: that is, it doesn't run in a native Windows version of bash, equipped with all the standard GNU tools 12:47:02 can you give a more specific bug report? 12:47:08 as in, what goes wrong when you try? 12:47:09 doesn't run = garbage errors from bash 12:47:14 I forget exactly, it was a while ago I tried 12:47:17 what if you try converting newlines first? 12:47:21 I tried two ports, none worked 12:47:23 ais523: I think I did 12:47:38 ais523: Note that the port versions of bash were 1.something and 2.something respectively 12:47:43 I sort of doubt configure supports bash 1 12:47:47 heh 12:47:57 I wouldn't actually be surprised if it did 12:48:03 ais523: but it's obviously a bug anyway, because it has a shell and gnu tools, so obviously it should be able to run the build system 12:48:05 there are all the sections on writing portable sh, and working around bugs 12:48:08 (if I downloaded mingw to be a cc) 12:48:18 although nowadays they tend to abandon support for really old stuff, which is annoying 12:48:29 that defeats half the point of configure, which is to be stupidly backwards-compatible 12:48:38 ais523: all the bloat, none of the benefit! 12:49:14 ais523: you should write a configure program in strict, avoiding-anything-that-anyone-has-fucked-up-implementing-ever K&R C, then it's _guaranteed_ to be able to configure wherever it can compile 12:49:41 then all it needs is a configure script to configure the compiler correctly for running it 12:49:50 hmm, IIRC jettyplay has a configure script, because I'm insane 12:50:16 then all it needs is a configure script to configure the compiler correctly for running it 12:50:23 you design the configure script so it works with just "cc configure.c" on any compiler 12:50:29 and use system() to do the rest, somehow 12:50:38 on Windows, the compiler is called cl 12:50:44 ais523: substitute cc with the compiler name 12:50:50 hmm: AC_PATH_PROG([JAVAC], [javac]) 12:50:56 I mean that any user that can type ./configure should be able to just give it to the compiler and have it work :) 12:50:57 ais523: haha 12:51:03 actually in jettyplay source 12:51:28 you'll be glad to hear I wrote the makefile.in by hand rather than using autoconf, though 12:51:45 (it's not in the repo, btw; it's in a separate directory) 12:51:47 ais523: yes. glad. 12:52:06 # This fails on unusual names for /usr/lib that contain ', &, \ or %. That 12:52:07 # shouldn't be a problem, but you never know... 12:52:18 I'm trying to figure out if this is a major failing or something completely irrelevant 12:52:26 my name for /usr/lib is "Tordy Complat Infisiant tumbly Hork" 12:52:30 my name for /usr/lib is "Tordy Complat Infisiant tumbly Hork%" 12:52:50 normally failing on weird punctuation in filenames is bad (see: clc-intercal and mandb), but it seems vaguely unlikely to find it in a localized name for /usr/lib 12:52:53 ais523: you see in @, you don't have to worry about escaping like that! 12:52:54 especially as most people just hardcode /usr/lib 12:53:03 ais523: Lojban uses ', at least 12:53:32 ' is the one it's very hard to fix 12:53:42 due to there being no way to tell make(1) to shell-escape variables it substitutes 12:53:45 ais523: you see in @, you don't have to worry about escaping like that! 12:53:54 I noticed, just didn't have a reaction 12:54:01 ais523: but it's TOTALLY RELEVANT >:D 12:54:35 why not, anyway? 12:54:49 ais523: because there's no shell, mostly 12:55:01 then how do you run your makefiles? 12:55:14 note that I was trying to substitute something into the replacement side of a sed s/// regexp 12:55:17 ais523: you don't; if you _did_ have a build system, it'd run code in @lang, which serves as the shell 12:55:39 ais523: but even just using Python as the shell in Unix doesn't compare, because @lang actions don't just take strings and return strings 12:55:40 but then it doesn't run standard GNU configure files 12:55:43 indeed 12:55:49 I've fixed your bug at its source! 12:55:52 also, seriously, people use Python as a shell? 12:55:52 and it turns out, the source is everything 12:55:58 ais523: no, but I was preempting a rebuttal 12:56:01 i.e. "oh well that's just sh" 12:56:07 ah 12:56:16 I interpreted as being more like Powershell than sh 12:56:19 only probably less insane 12:56:21 *interpreted it 12:56:31 hmm, might want a beta oberon, this hasn't been updated since 1999... 12:56:32 actually, what you've described sounds more or less like the entire rationale for Powershell 12:56:44 ais523: yep, except powershell makes a lousy programming language 12:56:48 although you can ignore it as Microsoft almost certainly screwed up the implementaiton 12:56:50 *implementation 12:56:51 (it also makes a lousy shell, but that's not inherent) 12:57:54 indeed, languages can be good at one and bad at the other, or vice versa, or both or neither 12:58:05 wow, that last sentence of mine was worryingly zzo38ish 12:58:15 ais523: A C compiler would probably look like - GCC compile(my-bytestring) 12:58:23 It has to be a bytestring (or a string, I suppose), because of cpp 12:58:39 If you had some already-preprocessed-and-now-a-C-code-object code, it'd look more like GCC compile(that) :P 12:59:02 ais523: I was actually thinking of what a "Unix-like" shell in @ would look like 12:59:08 I concluded that 12:59:10 $ cc foo.c 12:59:31 would produce a box with "Native function" at the top of it, and some assembly code below, plus links to a bunch of inspectors 12:59:42 and "$ cc foo.c > foo" would introduce the alias "foo" in the current environment for that object 12:59:45 which could be called with ./foo 12:59:55 (foo.c is of course just an alias for another object, as @ has no filesystem) 13:00:17 tl;dr EVERYTHING IS OBJECTS 13:00:24 wow, if you do that lazily, you could have lazy debug info 13:00:30 I like that idea 13:00:32 brilliant 13:00:48 ais523: although, all standard @lang objects already have debugging, by virtue of being tied to their source 13:01:08 yep 13:01:16 ais523: (AFAICT prebuilt binaries would be completely useless in @ as the compiler would be as fast as machinely possible) 13:01:16 I mean more extensive debug info could be generated on-demand 13:01:19 right 13:01:28 well, it sort of can, if the machine code is tied to the source 13:01:32 because you can always re-scan that area 13:02:00 hmm, I was going to say "you could even add things like debug printf statements to a program and rerun it in the environment it started running in", but then realised that things were getting dangerously Feather 13:02:22 ais523: nope, that's still pretty solidly @ 13:02:29 although, obviously the outside world wouldn't change 13:02:49 ais523: oh, and the debugger would be entirely source-based, and let you change expressions in the program on the fly :) 13:02:54 and have them recompile into the right place 13:03:09 so you could even add debug printfs to a running program just by adding them in the debugger 13:03:16 and then save the changes if you want to keep them 13:03:34 hmm, why are there not enbuggers? 13:03:46 as in, programs that help you figure out good places to put hard-to-find and subtle bugs in programs? 13:03:47 ais523: because the debugger works perfectly well for that job 13:03:58 oh, and of _course_, you can debug a running debugger. 13:04:01 and that metadebugger too. 13:04:08 just in case you've ever wanted to do something completely pointless. 13:04:37 elliott_: some of the TAS people have been known to run debuggers around emulators that didn't have memory watch, to debug the program running inside the emulator by debugging the emulator itself 13:04:55 which to me seems a lot more work than just changing the emulator to have the features you need 13:05:48 ais523: well, in @, you could have a really long-running debugging session, so long-running that you never want to exit it ever 13:05:52 but you want to do something the debugger can't do 13:05:56 so you open a debugger on the debugger 13:05:59 patch the feature in to the debugger 13:06:00 and resume 13:06:07 brilliant! 13:06:10 leaving the long-lived debugger with the new feature you need! 13:06:17 and then you could even save it to the standard debugger for future use 13:06:40 ais523: I hope to replace all development with successive applications of nested debugging by 2020 13:08:53 argh, oberon's mouse acceleration is far too high 13:09:55 I thought it was a programming language, not an OS? 13:10:01 do programming languages have mouse acceleration? 13:10:05 ais523: false dichotomy! 13:10:06 I suppose their standard libraries might 13:10:19 elliott_: you mean it's a programming language and also an OS, Smalltalk-style? 13:10:33 (even then, I tend to mentally separate the two, and do not consider gst to be an abomination, but that's maybe just me) 13:11:03 ais523: I am referring to {Oberon (operating system)}, which is based on an implementation of {Oberon (programming language)}; *but* {Oberon (operating system)} is the only existing embodiment of the "Oberon system" that the {Oberon (programming language)} specifies and is designed to be used in 13:11:15 ah, OK 13:11:17 specifically, I'm referring to the {Native Oberon} flavour of {Oberon (operating system)} 13:11:32 but, really, there's little point distinguishing them 13:11:45 just because Unix pretends to be language-agnostic (it's not, see: C), doesn't mean everything does 13:12:04 (similarly, just because something isn't language-agnostic, doesn't mean it's not language-hostile (see Lisp Machines, which had C compilers)) 13:12:09 also, does {} introduce an FFI to Wikipedia-style disambig parens? 13:12:15 it does now! 13:12:50 hmm, so right-click drag with insanely high mouse acceleration is the most difficult operation possible on a macbook 13:13:04 are you using the touchpad or an external mouse? 13:13:08 touchpad 13:13:14 also, do you mean mouse acceleration, or mouse speed? 13:13:21 very high levels of acceleration give you lots of precision on a touchpad 13:13:22 both, I think 13:13:25 ah 13:13:25 it's hard to tell when it's so fast 13:13:30 ais523: this is a 640x480 window :) 13:13:45 well, very high mouse acceleration would mean that if you moved the touchpad slowly, the cursor would move very slowly indeed 13:13:49 compared to moving it quickly 13:14:46 gah, better create a partition before trying to isntall oberon 13:14:47 *install 13:14:53 The wikipedia page reads like an advertisement 13:15:02 ais523: or, it could go insanely fast when i moved it slowly, and SUPER INSANELY FAST hen i went faster 13:18:18 but then you couldn't tell if it was accelerated or not 13:18:56 ais523: what's the standard size of a cylinder these days? :-P 13:19:12 oh, you mean a hard drive cylinder? 13:19:22 I thought that question was along the same lines as "how long is a piece of string?" 13:19:28 :-D 13:19:31 yeah hd cylinder 13:19:38 I don't know 13:19:46 no no let's pretend i meant it in the other sense 13:19:48 that's a far better sense 13:20:13 indeed 13:22:43 hmm 13:22:48 i would like to see a self-modifying paintfuck 13:22:51 All CHS addresses are utter lies nowadays anyway, so it's probably not a very relevant number any more. 13:22:55 as in, a paintfuck that interprets the graphical space as a program somehow 13:23:00 so that you set the space up and run it 13:23:04 would be the pretties 13:23:07 fizzie: yes but fdisk wants me to set one 13:23:13 Number of cylinders (1-1048576): 13:23:16 to let me paaaartition this fake disk 13:23:34 elliott_: it should OCR the graphical space and interpret it as a PF program 13:23:39 the interpreter should, I mean 13:23:49 ais523: haha 13:23:53 ais523: i didn't mean just for initial loading though :) 13:23:53 it's the only way to stay within the spirit of PF 13:23:58 indeed 13:23:58 or does it reverse-OCR it every step? 13:24:02 if so, I'm scared 13:24:11 I mean, every step it OCRs the current playfield, and interprets it as the program 13:24:23 the playfield's initialised with a reverse-OCR (i.e. printout) of the program you give it 13:25:09 eek 13:25:14 why eek? 13:25:20 because that sounds terrifying :) 13:26:06 it surely isn't that bad compared to some of the things #esoteric comes up with? 13:26:30 ais523: well, no, but it's still perverse in a unique way of its own 13:26:56 Which sort of fdisk is this that it can't read the disk geometry from somewhere? 13:27:07 fizzie: one working on an imaginary drive 13:27:18 fizzie: one working on a file that's a bunch of 0s 13:27:21 that doesn't actually have any geometry until you define what it is 13:27:22 it's for a qemuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 13:27:30 qem 13:27:33 qem\mu 13:27:39 Well. A "standard" fake-cylinder in pc-ishnowadays is 63*255 sectors (255 fake-heads and 63 sectors per fake-track; about 8 megabytes). 13:27:44 qemµ 13:27:54 s/ishnow/ish systems is now/ 13:28:17 So 130-or-so cylinders in this. 13:28:20 (1 gig) 13:28:54 > 130*63*255*512 13:28:54 1069286400 13:28:59 That's how many bytes you'd get. 13:29:07 (With the largest possible cylinders.) 13:29:10 CLOSE ENOUGH 13:29:40 qe 13:31:22 gah, fizzie's nick length is almost exactly the right length (out by one pixel) to make the > to call lambdabot line up with the > to delimit elliott_'s nick 13:31:35 and it made me confused as to why lambdabot responded to one but not the other 13:31:40 ais523: ocd much 13:31:40 :-p 13:31:42 *P 13:32:00 oh, the one pixel difference doesn't bother me, it's just that it's such a small difference I missed it was there 13:36:00 c'mon oberon, you can boot! 13:36:47 or not evidently 13:36:49 hmm, I was reading a page on c2 13:36:55 and noticed it mentioned the LGPL 13:37:06 and thought "hmm, that's a bit modern for c2 to be referencing, isn't it?" 13:37:18 now I'm trying to work out why I had such an illogical thought 13:38:11 ais523: :wat: 13:38:20 ais523, since much of c2 hasn't been touched in a decade? *exaggeration* 13:38:41 Sgeo: for some reason I assume it captures computer knowledge from Before Time Began, or something like that 13:38:43 this bitz stuff is out of control 13:39:43 I remember a time when there were occasional changes being done on C2 wiki 13:40:04 olsner: ok grandpa 13:41:02 Well, time to get to school 13:47:45 elliott_: can you think of any reason why I'd get 504 errors on the vast majority (but not all) of attempts to submit HTTP POST requests, from one laptop but on more than one Internet connection, and how repeatedly trying until it works makes it work eventually? 13:47:55 the set of symptoms seems to make no sense to me 13:48:10 ais523: it's making demon fly out of your nose, washing the windows api, and the ISS servers are getting all soapy 13:48:14 *demons 13:48:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:48:20 and servers tend to perform worse when soapy 13:48:35 (even if they're running on apache, they tend to get bits of soap from them as the iss content disseminates throughout the internet) 13:48:37 indeed, SOAP is famously bad 13:48:38 hope this helps 13:50:14 anyone else have ideas that aren't DS9K-related? 13:50:49 I'm offended 13:51:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:56:19 -!- sftp has joined. 13:56:35 Hmm... I think I should actually design an esolang based on fractal circuits. 13:58:21 Ilari: How many billions of unpublished esolangs do you have? 14:00:08 2 esolangs that are "unpublished". I like esolangs that aren't just minor variations of Brainfuck. 14:00:16 Who doesn't? :-) 14:00:26 You just seem to talk about random esolangs you've made that nobody seems to have ever heard of a lot :-P 14:01:10 Ilari: strangely, we have a section on that in the paper we're writing right now 14:01:13 I have designed 3 so far (this fractal-circuit based esolang isn't in that). 14:01:13 fractal circuits, that is 14:01:32 fractal circuits is something that sounds nice but is probably useless :D 14:01:38 it isn't useless 14:01:42 it's the usual way to implement a sort in hardware 14:01:45 damn 14:02:05 why is that so worthy of damnation? 14:02:11 As far as I know, all three are turing complete. And this fourth would be too. 14:02:17 ais523: my prediction was wrong! 14:02:27 also, "damn" is an incredibly mild utterance no matter what you say :) 14:02:30 it's hard to not be TC if a language is at all interesting 14:02:52 I still don't know whether Wapr is turing complete or not. 14:03:02 sorry, *jumping to -1 is exciting 14:03:03 I still don't know whether Dupdog is turing complete or not 14:03:07 ais523: it isn't 14:03:07 this log has so much circular logic it hurts <-- haha 14:03:17 elliott_: was that proved? 14:03:19 Vorpal: It hurts because it has so much circular logic. 14:03:26 it's rare to have a language that's non-TC, but not trivially non-TC 14:03:33 as ()^: Underload demonstrated 14:03:34 ais523: hmm, not on the wikipedia page, but IIRC oerjan pretty much slam-dunked it once 14:03:41 *Esolang, I hope 14:03:44 err, yes 14:03:53 Xigxag's another lang with similar properties 14:03:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting Quick! Is my badly-specified old esolang TC??? 14:03:57 (the "TABS=8 AND EVERYONE WHO THINKS TABS!=8 EVER IS WRONG" thing; not that he ever gives a decent argument for it, but this was basically like 3 hours of circular argumentation from him in the logs) <-- I think his argument boiled down to it being traditional 14:04:08 oh er 14:04:14 those things after the command chars 14:04:15 are stack traces 14:04:15 wait, was someone ohter than me arguing that? 14:04:17 top first 14:04:22 not arg params or something 14:04:31 ais523: no, I just read the log where you spent a few hours dedicated to arguing it :D 14:04:39 nothing personal, it just hurt me inside 14:04:46 hey Vorpal, does that ick on mac classic thing actually work :) <-- it works but the MPW C compiler fails on some generated programs. IIRC it was due to bugs in the MPW C compiler 14:04:47 -!- cheater00 has joined. 14:04:49 but a true logreader never abandons his log. 14:05:02 * elliott_ pets log 14:05:11 Vorpal: where did you download mpw from anyway <-- apple ftp. As a set of 14 or so segmented .img (no not .dmg, that is OS X only) 14:05:19 Vorpal: yeah, that ftp is down now. 14:05:25 also, MrC is that buggy? aargh 14:05:34 that means I'll have to try and get gcc 2 compiled... 14:05:43 which will be so unfun it's hard to even articulate 14:06:21 elliott_, I forgot what it failed on 14:06:39 Vorpal: It hurts because it has so much circular logic. <-- :) 14:06:45 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:06:57 elliott_, anyway, I did not port it for 68k 14:07:07 elliott_, oh and sheepshaver is too buggy to compile one of the object files 14:07:10 Vorpal: what's the difference 14:07:13 isn't the toolchain semi-agnostic 14:07:29 elliott_, iirc the compiler switches have rather different names 14:07:40 anyway ick generates command lines for things 14:07:54 well, whatever, I have to get gcc working SOMETIME! 14:07:58 elliott_, I needed to compile that one object file on my old ibook, then copy it across. 14:08:11 sheepshaver crashed on it 14:08:13 Vorpal: what i can't figure out how to do is how to provide an fopen() with filename translation. 14:08:18 i have to shadow the libc's 14:08:20 but then call it 14:08:24 without dlopen and friends this sounds impossible 14:08:26 elliott_, I believe I did filename translation in ick 14:08:27 or inline asm 14:08:29 or something 14:08:34 Vorpal: but not at fopen() level 14:08:37 indeed 14:08:40 think cygwin, i have to give this to other programs instead of libc 14:08:53 elliott_, anyway iirc ick had something like #define PATH_SEP '/' 14:08:55 or similar 14:09:04 yeah but nothing else does :D 14:09:11 elliott_, I had to rewrite some function to not add non-required path separators 14:09:39 elliott_, foo//bar is just verbose. but foo::bar is plain wrong 14:09:45 indeed 14:09:48 thus the need for translation 14:10:00 Vorpal: amusingly, since translation must handle , you can mix and match! 14:10:07 pop quiz: what does /:x mean? 14:10:22 elliott_, anyway where do you plan to run MrC? 14:10:26 where? 14:10:30 yes 14:10:32 sheepshaver? 14:10:36 elliott_: the same as x:\ from WIndows, only backwards 14:10:39 uh, vMac and Basilisk. 14:10:47 I explicitly want to make sure it works on System Software 6 14:10:48 elliott_, oh so SC then? not MrC? 14:10:52 so great you used a symmetrical letter there, or the joke wouldn't have worked! 14:10:53 SC is the 68k compiler iirc 14:10:54 oh, is there another compiler? 14:11:02 Vorpal: really, that's just a stopgap measure until I get gcc bootstrapped 14:11:02 elliott_, yes MrC is PPC, SC is 68k 14:11:10 NetBSD can run on them I think 14:11:14 so gcc is feasible, fsvo feasible 14:11:30 elliott_, didn't apple use to cross compile Mac OS from some unix system or such? 14:11:39 God knows. 14:11:45 If I were sane I'd just use A/UX. 14:11:49 But I'm not sane. 14:11:56 elliott_, isn't A/UX apple's? 14:11:59 Yes. 14:12:00 I never tried it 14:12:05 It's not very good, I gather. 14:12:17 Vorpal: Anyway, if this actually gets working I'm sure I can buy a Macintosh Plus just to see it run :P 14:12:25 Memory1 MB, expandable to 4 MB (150 ns 30-pin SIMM) 14:12:26 That'll be fun with gcc 14:12:31 -!- Guest1055 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:12:36 elliott_, anyway there was this site with "abandonware" for classic mac 14:12:39 trying to remember the name 14:12:42 there's several aren't there :D 14:12:42 GNU ld has a "--wrap" thing for that sort of library-wrapping, which lets you override library functions in such a way that the overriding code can call the original. (I can't be bothered to read all the context to see if that's relevant.) 14:12:45 elliott_, had lots 14:13:00 elliott_, ah http://www.macintoshgarden.org/ 14:13:03 fizzie: classic macintosh. 14:13:13 elliott_, that site has various mpw versions iirc 14:13:17 Yes, but you keep talking about GCC too. 14:13:18 elliott_, and sdks too 14:13:33 elliott_, are you aware of how the MPW shell works? 14:13:36 fizzie: Well that's the GOAL. 14:13:38 Vorpal: Badly, yes. 14:13:40 Also I read the logs. 14:13:43 So I am now an expert. 14:13:52 Vorpal: Maybe I can avoid MPW entirely by CROSS-COMPILING. 14:13:57 Except I doubt cross-compiling would work at all. 14:14:00 elliott_, and why ick can't call the compiler (I made it an mpw tool) 14:14:06 (because that solved stdio issues) 14:14:14 Vorpal: Indeed; thankfully, whateverit'scalled solves that! 14:14:22 Vorpal: Who needs the MPW shell when you have Real Authentic Make? 14:14:24 whateverit'scalled is a great name 14:14:34 mostly because of the apostrophe 14:14:36 elliott_, what are you trying to compile for it? 14:14:40 Vorpal: Huh? 14:14:41 Of course, to use --wrap, one must relink the program. 14:14:53 elliott_: I think you may need to implement stdin/out/err by hand 14:14:57 elliott_, what is your *goal* here 14:14:59 ais523: My current naming scheme has gone something like Unix for Mac -> Uforma -> Euphorma, but I'm not sure where to go from there 14:15:05 Vorpal: Unix for Mac. 14:15:13 you could change the m to an i and get a real word 14:15:19 which may or may not be used atm 14:15:19 ais523: indeed, I noticed 14:15:21 elliott_, right. You need to write something like a shell for it 14:15:23 well, what's more euphoric than Unix! 14:15:28 Vorpal: No. I'll use bash. 14:15:32 Vorpal: Just like Cygwin does. 14:15:36 elliott_, what do you run bash in 14:15:41 Vorpal: In...? 14:15:53 elliott_, you will need to write a terminal emulator 14:15:53 Vorpal: I want to be able to double click "Start Euphorma" on my System Software 6 desktop, have it start up a vt100 emulator program, and point it at a pty, on which it starts bash. 14:15:56 is what I'm saying 14:16:05 Vorpal: I could maybe even reuse an existing one for the time being *shrug* i.e. telnet client 14:16:11 ah yes maybe 14:16:26 Vorpal: But that's a trivial problem compared to all the huge ones :P 14:16:29 Vorpal: For instance: cooperative multitasking. 14:16:47 Vorpal: Current plan is just "whenever we get control from the program, YIELD, and if it does for (;;); that's not our problem". 14:17:00 But if you could set up some kind of timer interrupt and then cause it to yield or something, that would be an option too. 14:17:15 Of course in old System Software versions all Unix software will stop when you tab away. 14:17:38 heh 14:17:40 Vorpal: In a way, it'll be a hosted microkernel plus a POSIX libc. 14:17:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:17:52 Hosted microkernel to handle taskswitching, POSIX libc to wrap the existing libc and add Unix functions. 14:18:00 elliott_, how long before you give this project up do you think? 14:18:07 Not long! But it's fun to think about now. 14:18:16 I suppose I should learn the Macintosh Toolbox. 14:18:25 -!- Guest1055 has joined. 14:18:33 elliott_, I have no idea about that. I know it exists... That is about all 14:18:39 It's the API. 14:18:39 elliott_, wasn't it 68k only? 14:18:41 I think it's Pascal. 14:18:42 Vorpal: No. 14:18:43 as in PPC used something else 14:19:14 elliott_, in the version of MPW I have, Pascal seems to be treated like a second class citizen. 14:19:24 Vorpal: Yah, but the APIs are all Pascal. 14:19:30 That's why you can say "\pxyz" in MPW to get a Pascal string. 14:19:44 elliott_, I'm fairly sure you need an older one to make it run on 68k. As in last MPW won't 14:20:17 could be wrong though 14:20:41 elliott_, also did 68k have MMUs? 14:20:45 Vorpal: Of course, MPW 3 was the last I think. 14:20:52 But like I said, I can't rely on MPW for too long :P 14:20:54 Vorpal: No MMU. 14:20:56 But an MMU is irrelevant. 14:20:58 Vorpal: They used to cross-develop Mac OS stuff from Lisa. 14:21:03 fizzie, fun 14:21:09 elliott_: how are you planning to implement alarm()? 14:21:24 if you can't even do non-coop multitasking, then that should be near-impossible 14:21:28 ais523: Does the 68k have timer interrupts? :p 14:21:40 It must do, since Mac OS 9 did mostly preemptive multithreading. 14:21:44 I don't know, nor whether you can hook them without doing inline asm or whatever 14:21:47 So I'll just use that. 14:22:06 hmm, I think my new esolang I'm mulling over atm will have both pre-emptive and cooperative multithreading, because 14:22:40 It must do, since Mac OS 9 did mostly preemptive multithreading. <-- wasn't OS 8.something the last to run on 68k 14:22:41 Processors in general tend to have just "interrupts", it's up to the surrounding hardware to cause them using timers. 14:23:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:23:02 Vorpal: oh right. 14:23:05 fizzie: yesyesyes 14:23:08 tired, i bbreviate 14:23:16 elliott_, actually OS 9 did preemptive but with one task doing most of the job. That task internally doing cooperative 14:23:17 maybe i could get the fpu to divide by zero at JUST the right moment 14:23:24 Vorpal: ah... 14:23:28 i thought it was like the other way around 14:23:35 cooperative at the top layer, and main task doing preempting 14:23:35 elliott_, you had to call this main task for stuff like file system and what not even 14:23:51 elliott_, so in practise it wasn't preemptive in any useful sense 14:23:52 but yeah, i need to run on 68k. 14:23:55 it's just not impressive if I can't! 14:24:26 cooperative at the top layer, and main task doing preempting <-- except the top layer being thicker than the main layer 14:24:47 -!- augur has joined. 14:25:04 maybe i could get the fpu to divide by zero at JUST the right moment 14:25:06 `addquote maybe i could get the fpu to divide by zero at JUST the right moment 14:25:06 this was the best idea ever 14:25:15 elliott_: I was addquoting it even before you requoted it yourself 14:25:15 elliott_, as far as I remember about the only useful API for "native preemptive tasks" (called "blue tasks" iirc!) that didn't call the cooperative code was memory allocation 14:25:39 bloo tasqs 14:25:40 I think insightful's better than funny for qdbs 14:25:41 I'm pretty sure a 68k mac would have timer interrupts, but hooking into them would most likely be rather undocumented and kludgy. 14:25:58 fizzie: this whole idea is pretty much undocumented and kludgy. 14:26:06 that's why it's great! 14:26:07 fizzie, quite. 14:26:16 main priority is getting MPW 3 anyway :P 14:26:21 checking that site now 14:26:22 ha, codewarrior 6 14:26:23 wait, wouldn't the CPU have internal timers? 14:26:29 oh wait.. not a SOC 14:26:46 i imagine 68k's inability to support good preemptive multitasking drove the switch away partly. 14:26:55 I just realised I never done really low level coding for anything except SOCs. 14:26:57 thankfully, _I_ am not constrained by requirements of goodness 14:27:12 elliott_, also the memory limit I bet 14:27:14 Vorpal: write a boot sector, it's easy and you can say you've done it :P 14:27:17 well yes, the memory limit 14:27:20 elliott_, hell no :P 14:27:25 but 8 megs is plenty, and that's just 24-bit system 6 limit! 14:27:45 elliott_, fun thing about Mac OS. The OS could move memory around under you 14:27:46 68k can run Linux just fine (for some values of "fine", anyway...), so there's nothing unfixably wrong in the hardware. 14:27:49 http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-common-lisp-20 :D MCL 14:27:56 fizzie: Right, and also NetBSD. 14:27:59 elliott_, you had these kind of handles, and you needed to go through them 14:28:02 for a lot of stuff 14:28:04 Of *course* it runs NetBSD. 14:28:14 fizzie: And thankfully old Mac OS pretty much let you take over everything, so... 14:28:21 http://craftbook.sk89q.com/wiki/Perlstone seems to qualify as a "practical" esolang 14:28:23 Vorpal: for gc, obviously! 14:28:25 elliott_, since there was not MMU it couldn't use virtual memory to patch up address space, so it had to move stuff around under you 14:28:32 lifthrasiir: Scared to click. 14:28:34 elliott_, yes kind of gc yes 14:28:42 lifthrasiir: lol, "The language was designed and the interpreter written by Lymia." 14:28:45 Lymia: hello 14:28:45 elliott_, but more kind of ghetto virtual memory :P 14:28:53 (and yeah, I just started to play Minecraft very recently) 14:29:01 elliott_: ugh 14:29:18 oh no, the koreans have found another game ending in "craft" 14:29:22 so the esoteric nature is intentional, right? :p 14:29:25 now nothing can stop a global economic meltdown :( 14:29:32 elliott_, what? 14:29:36 http://p.zem.fi/68k-virtual-memory ← also one of the best solutions ever. 14:29:45 elliott_: no, MC was popular since 2010 in Korea :p 14:29:46 I thought Korean MMO crazes mostly stayed confined to (South) Korea 14:29:49 Vorpal: Dem Koreans are known for their... fondness of Starcraft :P 14:29:57 ais523: lifthrasiir is Korean, unless I'm seriously mistaken 14:30:03 i was very lazy compared to my friends... 14:30:04 fizzie, did macs use the original 68000 or? 14:30:11 elliott_, oh okay 14:30:12 I mean, it's not the whole world that's doomed, just South Korea 14:30:12 late* 14:30:33 I've heard that people voluntarily install rootkits over there to "prove" they aren't cheating in online games... 14:30:40 Vorpal: Early models, yes. 14:30:58 which I suppose is actually a sensible idea if you trust the game manufacturer 14:31:11 fizzie, I heard that story you linked before, but what I never understood why they went to that length to solve it. Why not just use a different CPU? 14:31:24 ais523: afaik it is rather involuntarily, but that sounds plausible 14:31:25 Mac II seems to be 68020-based already. 14:31:36 No output. 14:31:45 lifthrasiir: well, when the alternative is not running the game 14:31:47 HackEgo: seriously? 14:31:57 as an account forgery is quite a problem nowadays 14:32:03 who needs virtual memory 14:32:05 or mmu 14:32:06 or anything 14:32:09 unix doesn't need that! 14:32:13 I mean, it's not the whole world that's doomed, just South Korea 14:32:16 but the manufacturing! 14:32:33 elliott_, true but I remember having to reboot mac os due to buggy programs many times 14:32:41 Vorpal: yeah but gnu coders are perfect. 14:32:44 elliott_, har 14:33:07 elliott_, anyway, I had MacBugs (or whatever the spelling was... MacsBug?) 14:33:25 macsbug 14:33:30 elliott_, and I seen it say "Unable to Find System Heap. Heap list corrupted" or some such 14:33:36 elliott_, that is why you want an MMU :P 14:34:08 who needs debugging... 14:34:11 just don't write bad code 14:34:11 elliott_, remember the FS wasn't journaling either :P 14:34:27 elliott_, oh I could debug. I just couldn't kill the app. Had to reboot. 14:34:36 Vorpal: it's instant anyway 14:34:55 omg 14:34:58 apple smalltalk 80 :D 14:35:11 never mind, euphorma cancelled, perfect os discovered 14:35:14 ;D 14:35:16 elliott_, well that was OS 9, so not quite. 14:35:23 oh right. one of the bad ones 14:35:47 Archived (171.17 MB) 14:35:47 Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs 14:35:47 --mpw 14:35:49 -_- 14:35:57 elliott_, well anyway System 7 didn't boot instantly on hardware available when System 7 was new 14:36:03 Vorpal: system 6 did. 14:36:12 elliott_, possibly. Don't remember that. 14:36:20 not possibly, definitely :) 14:36:21 elliott_, what OS did Classic run? 14:36:27 uh? 14:36:28 as in Macintosh Classic 14:36:31 an apple model 14:36:32 was it 6? 14:36:35 or older? 14:37:05 elliott_, when I was small my dad had one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Classic 14:37:09 Vorpal: oh 14:37:11 uh 14:37:17 ah 6 it says 14:37:20 The Classic used the System 6.0.7 operating system with support for all versions up to System 7.5.5. A hidden Hierarchical File System (HFS) disk volume contained in the read-only memory (ROM) included System 6.0.3.[17] The Mac Classic could be booted into System 6.0.3 by holding down the Command + Option + X + O keys during boot.[17] 14:37:21 yeah 14:37:30 the Plus was what debut'ddd 6 14:37:44 why the hidden rom? 14:37:49 god knows 14:37:53 for recoevry? 14:37:54 recovery. 14:38:07 elliott_, why not use the OS included originally then (6.0.7) 14:38:10 recovery was my guess when I saw that 14:38:19 Vorpal: god knows; not available when that part was being designed? 14:38:20 and presumably because 6.0.3 was known not-fatally-buggy, 6.0.7 wasn't 14:38:21 not tested yet? 14:38:23 right 14:38:27 ah 14:39:00 "I'm learning Objective-C and my friend have a real Macintosh IIci, that uses a Mac System 7(specifically 7.5.5 with a 68k processor) and I've installed Metrowerks C/C++ IDE(I think it's the version 1, but I don't know), but i didn't tested it, then i want to know one thing: It's possible to develop in Objective-C using NSObjects/Objects and AppKit or something like this on it? Thanks. 14:39:00 " 14:39:01 8 MHz heh 14:39:03 --stack overfail 14:39:38 ais523: hmm, you've used compilers that support 16-bit archs, right? 14:39:38 elliott_, also Apple likes to reuse product names 14:39:41 any that might do m68k? :p 14:39:54 not sure 14:39:55 "The Classic featured several improvements over the Macintosh Plus, which it replaced as Apple's low-end Mac computer: it was up to 25 percent faster than the Plus and included an Apple SuperDrive 3.5" floppy disk drive as standard.[16] The SuperDrive could read and write to Macintosh, MS-DOS, OS/2, and ProDOS disks." 14:40:01 despite having used them, I didn't really understand how they worked 14:40:14 elliott_, SuperDrive. Wasn't that Apple's DVD-RAM drive during the G3/G4 era? 14:40:25 it aws a flopy drive 14:40:28 it was more on the "run the command and hope" level, like I'm currently at with Marst 14:40:38 elliott_, as well 14:40:48 elliott_, they reused the trademark is what I'm saying 14:41:02 wikipedia agrees 14:41:05 inded 14:41:07 eed. 14:41:09 key repeat sucks. 14:41:34 elliott_, lack of in this case? 14:41:40 no, it just takes too long. 14:41:49 elliott_, wait you mean *that* key repeat? 14:41:50 "Installing binutils and GCC as cross-compiler for the Motorolla 68000" 14:41:51 wjw 14:41:55 people use it to type? 14:41:59 Vorpal: no 14:42:00 but like 14:42:02 when i'm this tired 14:42:04 i can't tap e twice 14:42:08 i just sortal inger on the e key 14:42:10 oh you are tired. Okay 14:42:11 but it doesn't really work 14:42:22 so wait since when does m68k be supported by... 14:42:25 is m68k 32-bit? 14:42:30 yes, it is. 14:42:31 I have no clue 14:42:33 elliott_: I didn't realise it was possible to be so tired that you couldn't press a given key twice in a row 14:42:36 so gcc supports it! 14:42:39 also, I recommend sleeping, in such cases 14:42:39 m68k-coff, for one 14:42:47 ais523: at 2 pm? that would be unwise 14:42:56 also, my brain's still awake, mostly, it's just everything else that's being stupid 14:43:02 (note: this is almost always true) 14:43:06 GCC is what Linux/m68k runs on. 14:43:18 elliott_, you need sleep then 14:43:20 fizzie: Yeeees, but I'm trying to produce Mack-in-tosh boonaries here. 14:43:26 elliott_: I tend to be sufficiently bad at sleeping at will, that when I do sleep, it's often at arbitrary times of day 14:43:28 GCC is what Linux/m68k runs on. <-- wait what 14:43:33 I am not sure what the executable format is. :p 14:43:35 Linux/m68k runs on GCC? 14:43:44 since when was GCC an OS or such 14:43:46 elliott_: That's just a binutils issue. 14:43:52 fizzie: "just" 14:43:53 Vorpal: Is based on. 14:44:05 fizzie, "is compiled with"? 14:44:14 hmm, is gcc turing-complete? 14:44:18 hah 14:44:21 as in, the compiler itself, rather than the executables it produces 14:44:30 (adjust for infinite memory) 14:44:35 Ahahah 14:44:40 oh, obviously, C++ templates 14:44:43 anyone know what format 68k binaries are? :P 14:44:44 what about just the C part? 14:44:45 ais523, then we first need to define what it executes. Command line options? 14:44:46 The m68k is also what you might call "moderately 32-bit"; the address bus is just 24 bits (at least in 680N0 with small N). 14:44:50 I got a captcha with "pi-calculus" 14:44:53 Guest1055: hello slereheareareareareareah 14:44:54 With like, an actual pi 14:45:00 reearearafreaeereearreeearaerarareera 14:45:02 -!- Guest1055 has changed nick to Slereah. 14:45:06 fizzie: Indeed, but. 14:45:09 fizzie: Close enough for gcc! 14:45:15 Slereah: did you type it? 14:45:18 Nah 14:45:24 I just switched to another one 14:45:27 fizzie, by that token x86-64 is "moderately 64-bit". 48 bits isn't it? 14:45:36 Slereah: http://zem.fi/~fis/faircaptcha.png 14:45:41 fizzie, and physical bus tends to be between 36 and 42 or so 14:45:45 I saw that one yeah 14:45:47 Slereah: \pi-calculus 14:45:51 (probably more for server CPUs) 14:45:52 Indeed 14:46:04 fizzie: it is inglip's commad. 14:46:05 *command. 14:46:06 That's the problem of using captchas as OCRs 14:46:33 fizzie: well system 7 had more than 24-bit 14:46:36 at leassttstst 14:46:50 Slereah: http://zem.fi/~fis/faircaptcha.png <-- did you enter the TeX code? 14:47:39 should i go into #macintosh 14:47:40 and ask 14:47:43 Is cyrilic even in basic latex? 14:47:50 what executable format did 68k macintosh system software use 14:47:55 and watch the blank stares 14:48:02 i think the answer is obvious, and it is yes 14:48:10 elliott_: Seems that 68020 and later ones had a full 32-bit address bus. (Discounting the el-cheapo model 68EC020.) 14:48:24 Vorpal: It was a comment form and I didn't have anything to say, so no. 14:48:41 TYPICAL FINN ANTISOCIALITY 14:48:58 "Oops"; accidentally typed #minecraft instead. 14:48:59 They had those 68k/ppc "fat binaries" even back then, like they have ppc/x86 now. 14:49:01 Expect TkTech in 3, 2, 1... 14:49:12 fizzie: "Now"; not really any more :P 14:50:15 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 14:50:17 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 14:50:17 -!- elliott has joined. 14:52:01 ha ha i have bamboozled them iwth the complexiti of my questionssodifj 14:52:01 fizzie, ah 14:52:17 The old executable format seems to be called PEF, and according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_Executable_Format it's co-used by BeOS on PPC. 14:52:35 Well, at least the "fat binary" m68k/ppc one. 14:52:39 what executable format did 68k macintosh system software use <-- what one did it use? 14:52:47 Might well be that thin binaries used something completely different. 14:52:48 So... anybody happen to know what executable format 68k Mac OS used? 14:52:48 I don't recall what its name was, but it involved pieces of code stored as individual resources in the app's resource fork 14:52:48 Well, that sounds pleasant. I was hoping it'd be something I could coerce binutils into generating with only mild pain. Naive of me. 14:52:53 Vorpal: Something terrifying. 14:53:01 oh right PEF. I think I saw that somewhere. 14:53:06 elliott, yes the CODE resource I think 14:53:33 elliott, hey there was a "plugin" to resedit that added a disassembler for CODE resources 14:53:35 I remember that 14:53:48 Yeah, now tell me how to make them from outside Macq :P 14:53:59 elliott, you need to handle resource fork 14:54:02 which is tricky 14:54:21 elliott, I suggest generating a MacBinary or .hqx file as compiler output, then unpacking that on a mac 14:54:22 :P 14:54:43 elliott, anyway even PPC apps relied quite a bit on the resource fork to work 14:54:55 though the actual code was IIRC in the data fork then 14:55:24 bleh 14:55:42 technically i don't even wanna generate apps i think 14:55:46 because i don't want them to spawn gui crap 14:55:47 elliott, the resedit disasemmbler was quite nice. It could follow jumps when you clicked on jump or call instructions 14:55:54 and also backtrack any jumps to a specific line 14:55:57 sure, @ can do that. 14:56:03 it was a fun setup, code would be split into many resources and this was used as a primitive form of swap 14:56:05 i'm scared 14:56:13 yep 14:56:23 elliott, anyway you need one app that you run to start this thingy 14:56:44 Vorpal: of course. i was thinking that one would be the EuphormaKernel 14:56:51 and the other would just be EuphormaTerm 14:56:56 and "Start Euphorma" would just open both 14:57:09 hmm. 14:57:16 except the terminal would have to pass control to the kernel. 14:57:16 fun. 14:57:17 elliott, two? IPC? 14:57:18 why 14:57:28 Here, have some file format documentation (disclaimer: it might only have the m68k XCOFF object file format docs): http://mirrors.vanadac.com/ftp.apple.com/developer/Tool_Chest/Core_Mac_OS_Tools/MPW_etc./Documentation/MPW_Reference/File_Formats.sit.hqx 14:57:29 Vorpal: err, because all the terminal does is a pty thing? 14:57:30 but yeah 14:57:34 i suppose i could make the unix thing a library 14:57:37 elliott, oh and remember you can only start one instance of an app 14:57:38 and compile it into the terminal 14:57:47 so yeah you need to do the programs inside differently 14:57:50 fizzie: that XCOFF thing, can i use it without worrying about all these forks? 14:58:20 I would think the object files are rather forkless, but not really sure. 14:58:22 elliott, you *need* resource fork for the kernel/terminal bit though. Or at least for some type of launcher 14:58:26 right. 14:58:33 fizzie: So the only problem there is STARTING them :) 14:58:34 fizzie, also you can't run an object file 14:58:36 as in 14:58:38 before I get a launcher 14:58:40 right 14:58:44 I need _some_ kind of linkage 14:58:46 even if it's not an app 14:58:50 Vorpal: The only "application" could be a MPW-built thing that just jumps into otherwise-generated code. 14:58:58 fizzie, true. 14:59:07 fizzie: This is getting EXTRAORDINARILY like a kernel :P 14:59:09 elliott, anyway even mpw tools won't work without their resource fork 14:59:14 "So yeah, you open object file sand jump to them and ..." 14:59:16 *files and 14:59:18 which is why the ick mac port was such a pita 14:59:24 elliott, you know the .img format? 14:59:39 elliott, they have resource forks that are vital for the image to be mountable 14:59:43 so you need to .bin them 14:59:46 to transport them 14:59:56 still .img.bin is fairly reliable 14:59:56 lovely 14:59:59 better than .sit anyway 15:00:01 *shudder* 15:00:24 Vorpal: btw mac os 8 in basilisk ii = so crashy 15:00:34 elliott, I can imagine. OS 7 is crashy too 15:00:37 i just want a stable emulator that lets me have a big resolution :( 15:00:40 Vorpal: it was emulator bugs 15:00:42 99% sure 15:01:26 There's even some XCOFF support in binutils. (It was used in AIX by IBM too.) 15:01:35 elliott, anyway I decided to port ick (instead of something else) for a good reason 15:01:39 fizzie: So I should compile a gcc for XCOFF, yah? 15:01:45 elliott, I already knew ick was portable to hell and back 15:01:46 m68k-xcoff. 15:02:00 thus figuring it wouldn't be too much work (still was quite a bit) 15:02:03 I have a feeling I should jump right into gcc 2 so I know what horrors await me in the future. 15:02:19 fizzie: Alsoalso, that vandac thing isn't loading now. 15:02:40 what was the PPC executable format called now again 15:02:44 I don't remember 15:02:48 Well, it might be borderline possible, anyway; I wouldn't expect it to *work*. And I would be rather surprised if MPW would bother linking with gcc-generated xcoff objects. 15:02:52 Vorpal: You mean PEF? 15:03:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:03:20 fizzie: AFAICT MPW will be the hacky-libc and the kernel, and gcc will be all the apps. 15:03:23 fizzie, wasn't that for 68k? 15:03:28 Hey, gcc 1.21 is available. 15:03:30 Circa 1988. 15:03:32 fizzie, PPC used a different one that 68k I know 15:03:41 Vorpal: No, it's mostly a PPC format, though it also does m68k/PPC fat binaries. 15:03:41 ftp://ftp.mirrorservice.org/sites/sourceware.org/pub/gcc/old-releases/gcc-1/gcc-1.21.tar.bz2 15:03:51 fizzie, yes fat binaries is yet another thing 15:04:07 fizzie, but I'm 99% sure that PPC and 68k used different binary formats for "applications" 15:04:15 as in they had different names 15:04:55 Vorpal: Well, PEF is what OS X still runs on PPC Macs, "However, PEF is still supported on PowerPC-based Macintoshes and is used by some Carbon applications ported from earlier Mac OS versions", so the older x86-only format probably is something else. 15:04:58 I don't quite know what. 15:05:11 wow, gcc 2 is luxury 15:05:16 has a configure and everything 15:05:21 fizzie, x86?! 15:05:32 s/x86/m68/ 15:05:34 ah 15:05:41 Bah, and I don't even have elliott's no-sleep excuse here. 15:05:46 --build=BUILD configure for building on BUILD [BUILD=HOST] 15:05:46 --host=HOST configure for HOST [determined via config.guess] 15:05:47 "Uh." 15:05:49 No target support? 15:06:08 Configuring for a x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu host. 15:06:08 Invalid configuration `x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu': machine `x86_64-unknown' not recognized 15:06:08 Invalid configuration `x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu': machine `x86_64-unknown' not recognized 15:06:08 Unrecognized host system name x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu. 15:06:10 lawl, not 2.95then 15:06:13 *2.95 then 15:06:20 but i doubt recent 4 versions support m68k-xcoff :) 15:06:27 Amiga's m68k executable format was "Hunk", and of course OS-X uses "Mach-O"... is it just me, or are all these formats pretty masculine? (Well, discounting ELF...) 15:07:56 fizzie, what about COFF? PE? 15:08:15 Coughing and peeing. 15:08:16 elliott: The binary format support probably depends more on binutils/libbfd-or-what-was-it-called; might be possible to mix-n-match versions. 15:08:17 The manliest of acts. 15:08:22 heh 15:08:32 fizzie: gcc 2 gave up when it saw that I was this strange "x86_64" beast. 15:08:34 fizzie, *up to a point* 15:08:35 But ELF is the best format :P 15:08:37 I think gcc 3 will do just fine. :p 15:08:47 But I draw the line at 4, no way am I going to use 4. 15:08:55 That's waaaaaaaay too detached from anything I could ever run on the actual machine ever :P 15:09:00 elliott: At some point there were ports of GCC2 to x86_64, they're just wildly nonstandard. 15:09:08 ELF is fairly sane for a *nix like system. 15:09:21 Gregor: It's kinda irrelevant because this is just a bootstrapping anyway :P 15:09:27 too much overhead for old limited machines though 15:09:32 Gregor: A really complicated bootstrapping involving multiple compilers and writing a userspace Unix kernel. 15:09:47 Gregor, he is going to run on a MMU-less 68k system. ELF is just wasted there 15:09:50 Gregor: Unless you think Microcosm could be made to work on a 68k Macintosh ... 15:10:05 But yeah, ELF would be a tremendous waste of time here :P 15:10:19 Heck, COM++ (like .COM, but with moar space!) would do fine X-D 15:11:25 hmm, --target=m68k-xcoff is what I want, right? 15:11:25 HAHA 15:11:30 crosscompiling lingo confuses me 15:11:33 you know that COFF and PE are mutually exclusive? 15:11:40 elliott, I would suggest a custom format unless that is too much work. Something like a header with a magic byte and some offsets then just two sections following: code, data. Header should contain a .bss style segment size as well (but that won't be in binary of course) 15:11:52 there's a physiological mechanism in our bodies that disables us from coughing/sneezing, and at the same time peeing. 15:11:57 -!- Tritonio has joined. 15:12:00 Vorpal: Probably, yeah. 15:12:14 Vorpal: ...I would still like it if Unix programs could theoretically call the Toolbox, though :P 15:12:17 elliott, since you don't have MMU you want relocatable code btw. Otherwise running two copies of the same program would be painful 15:12:20 I want something closer to Cygwin, not coLinux. 15:12:33 Ughh, relocatable code. 15:12:38 elliott, and uh, self modifying code would be a pain 15:12:46 Here's my relocatable code format. 15:12:50 At the start, there's a list of memory locations. 15:13:05 Whenever you load the file, you increment the values in all those memory locations of the program image by the base you loaded it at. 15:13:14 The assembler handles the hard part of figuring out what's an address or not 15:13:15 * Gregor reappears. 15:13:15 TADAAAA 15:13:18 Yeah, ELF is kinda useless for that, just use a.out. 15:13:19 elliott, sounds like .dll 15:13:27 Gregor: a.out? Even that's a bit much 15:13:29 a.out is just .COM but less stupid. 15:13:40 Gregor: It has segments and relocations and tables :P 15:13:42 elliott, hell you need some way to handle conflicting addresses. With no mmu, loading things that want to be at the same place would be a pain 15:13:52 Vorpal: thus why relocatable code 15:13:59 elliott: a.out is just .COM without wasting space for zeros. 15:14:05 Gregor: Touché :P 15:14:08 elliott, I don't know if you can do PC relative addressing on that thing but I doubt it 15:14:14 JUST GONNA ASSUME THAT --TARGET= IS THE RIGHT THING 15:14:17 Vorpal: Thus load-time code rewriting. 15:14:27 elliott, so you are doing PE basically? 15:14:29 Vorpal: In fact... 15:14:34 Vorpal: You could do it without a big table of addresses. 15:14:44 Vorpal: If I know which opcodes have addresses in their Nth position, 15:14:48 then I can just do it to the whole code segment. 15:15:08 Bleh, I need to compile binutils, don't I 15:15:11 elliott, won't work without a separate .rodata segment. Otherwise you can't tell code from embedded read only code 15:15:16 rer 15:15:17 err* 15:15:19 read only data* 15:15:27 So don't allow embedded read-only data! 15:15:37 elliott, which would break stuff :P 15:15:43 Only bad stuff. 15:16:06 elliott, anyway you want to share read only code/data, your address space is tiny remember 15:16:13 Vorpal: 8 MiB is not tiny. 15:16:20 *Mio 15:16:23 I can't quite make out what form that xcoff supports in current binutils takes, it seems a bit AIX-specific... anyway, binutils 2.20 build with --target=m68k-coff starts all right but then dies with "This target is no longer supported in gas"; so at least that's not a good version to use. 15:16:23 gah, tail recursion is so hard in call-by-name 15:16:31 ais523: what about in call-by-push-value? 15:16:34 well, implementing it is trivial, but writing programs that are actually tail-recursive is tricky 15:16:39 fizzie: ffff 15:16:49 elliott: I haven't looked into the exact details of that, but I think it's just Underload-style 15:16:52 fizzie: Nobody likes this, do they 15:16:52 (2.20 is of course extra-new.) 15:17:02 and so transforms to and from call-by-name with about equal difficulty both ways 15:17:13 as long as you have first-class functions, which you always do in computer science 15:17:38 fizzie: Think 2.15 might work? May 2004. You have the inchoowishion for these things. 15:18:14 No clue whatsoever; binutils documentation is horrible in that it doesn't really tell anything about supported formats. 15:18:35 The only thing I can glean from the manual is that at least 68k in general is still there. :p 15:19:23 fizzie, doesn't change log list dropped targets? 15:20:47 haha, Deewiant's antislowpoke attempt also beats allegro 15:20:55 that is impressively crazy 15:20:57 Validation! 15:21:05 There's an uClinux build of m68k-coff-gcc-2.7.2.3; that's at least right processor architecture and object file format family. 15:21:25 Which involves some sort of saner-than-MPW compiler for compiling the actual programs, so... 15:21:25 But hey, how hard can loading a.out be? 15:21:25 this hard: |------------------O---| 15:21:32 pity it doesn't beat FFPSG too, that would have been hilarious 15:21:39 ais523: Yes, I complained about that when I submitted it :-P 15:21:45 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:22:00 Then you can just translate coff to xcoff; it's just one character more, how hard could it be? 15:22:13 elliott, did A/UX run under MacOS? 15:22:22 elliott, or separately? 15:22:22 Vorpal: It was a separate Os that had Mac OS inside it sort of. 15:22:24 HTH 15:22:30 elliott, sounds scary 15:22:37 Pretty much, yes 15:22:48 I would have to read up on it to remember, but IIRC base a.out has no relocations ... there were extensions in various BSDs that did. 15:22:56 fizzie: So er what *is* this xcoff thing like? 15:23:05 It says it's improved and expanded. 15:23:08 That sounds like bloat to me. 15:23:08 [[XCOFF, for "eXtended COFF", is an improved and expanded version of the COFF object file format defined by IBM and used in AIX. Early versions of the PowerPC Macintosh also supported XCOFF, as did BeOS.]] 15:23:14 fizzie: OK, so 68k doesn't actually use it :P 15:23:24 Well, MPW does. 15:23:28 It does? 15:23:33 So I've heard, anyway. 15:23:35 Mind you, a.out is pretty damn tempting at this point... 15:23:39 fizzie: MPW does PPC too, though. 15:23:49 elliott, don't ask me. I only really looked at the PPC stuff 15:23:52 It does have segments though, yeah. 15:24:17 elliott, but yeah I think it says XCOFF on the file icon for ppc objects 15:24:23 elliott, but something else on the 68k ones 15:24:36 elliott: Well, it *is* the "Common Object File Format", mostly platform-agnostic. 15:24:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:25:05 So if I step back and just get COFF and then make it relocatable... hooray, PE :-P 15:25:14 And I'm like 90% sure a.out is simpler than PE. 15:25:22 "Where is the 68K object file format documented? 15:25:22 In the "MPW 68K Object File Format" document (download)." 15:25:32 Ohyeah, it has relocations only for .o files :P 15:25:33 (Looked it up) 15:25:41 a.out is way simpler than PE. 15:25:42 The "download" link is to the File_Formats.sit.hqx. 15:25:52 fun to unpack 15:25:58 Gregor: That's easy then. 15:25:59 So maybe they used their own custom format for m68k objects, then. 15:26:00 Gregor: Programs are .o. 15:26:10 Gregor: Programs are .o with all their library functions mixed in. 15:26:21 fizzie, if the link works (and you paste it) I could fire up sheepshaver to unpack it 15:26:22 is .o. some sort of smiley? 15:26:22 Gregor: Alternatively: Programs are .o, and I give them a pointer to the shared libc space X-D 15:26:51 Vorpal: The mirror worked earlier today, but now it seems to be gone. Probably due all this excitement. 15:27:02 fizzie, mmkay 15:27:06 I'm still disappointed that MPW used file extensions. 15:27:17 Classic Mac OS is meant to be UNCOMPROMISINGLY Maccy! 15:27:34 Honestly, they should have renamed stdio.h to "Standard I/O" in the Headers folder. 15:28:14 and just called it stdio.h in the program itself 15:28:23 ais523: No, no, you should have to write it 15:28:26 #include 15:28:27 haha ais 15:28:33 *Include 15:28:42 (neither C89 nor C99 requires any sensible mapping from what you write in #include lines to what the file is called, or even if it's implemented via header file at all) 15:28:44 and also, you don't want a hash.. you would want something more self-explanatory 15:28:46 such as 15:28:50 ais523: And of course you can't have a header and a source file named the same in the same directory, so you end up having Headers and Sources folders in every project. 15:29:02 And the filetype codes are lovingly set. 15:29:10 Dear Compiler, please include the library called ,,Standard I/O´´ 15:29:24 and then it would compile 15:31:46 elliott, wait idea! Do this in HyperCard 15:31:52 Vorpal: Perfect. 15:32:36 That's funny, binutils-2.11.2 has an include/mpw/ directory with a README saying "This is a collection of include files that help imitate Posix in MPW." 15:33:18 fizzie: Anything interesting in there? 15:33:20 fork() 15:33:20 I wonder what that's for; perhaps for building binutils with MPW, then. 15:33:20 ? 15:33:59 fizzie, is there any files other than that README in there? 15:33:59 Seems to be mostly about reading and writing files. 15:34:13 Though it does "#define LOSING_TOTALLY", accurately enough. 15:34:22 hah 15:34:53 wat 15:35:12 elliott, which type of 68k object files are you interested in 15:35:16 there seem to be a lot 15:35:25 Vorpal: Whatever's easiest to relocate and jump to. 15:35:29 I wonder what CFM64KLibraries is 15:35:33 Vorpal: Also it'd be nice if it worked with PPC too. 15:35:38 But "most" object formats are architecture-independent. 15:35:45 I don't need fat binraies. 15:35:46 *binaries. 15:36:08 elliott, the icon for these look like a document symbol with ones and zeros on it 15:36:25 hey CLib881.far.o 15:36:29 that sounds fun 15:36:30 far out man 15:37:15 elliott, then there is the folder PLibraries. Since the other were in CLibraries I guess PLibraries is pascal 15:37:33 fizzie: So did you see any Toolbox docs on that ftp that's now down? 15:37:37 elliott, anyway the PPC one says 100\nXCOFF\n011 on them 15:37:41 Those will probably be invaluable. I don't even know how to spawn a process! 15:37:46 elliott, with the middle line in red and the first and last in blue 15:37:49 Vorpal: Maybe I'll just use a.out for both. 15:37:57 Vorpal: This thing is becoming SUCH a kernel :P 15:38:09 heh? 15:38:30 I got sidetracked looking at this binutils-2.11.2 tarball. Back then it seems to have this whole thing for supporting building the whole set with MPW. Mostly in order to use a PPC-targeting GCC there. 15:38:38 Vorpal: In that you can't do anything with its files without starting and running the whole kernel. 15:38:42 And the kernel is intimately tied to the formats. 15:39:01 elliott, anyway I'm not sure MPW uses file extension that much. Both foo.o and foo.c.x seem style naming of XCOFF files seems to be in use 15:39:21 also .c.o seems to be 68k object file in that case 15:39:24 so that may be why 15:39:42 $ ./configure --target=m68k-aout --prefix=/opt/mac 15:39:44 Well, it succeeds. 15:39:49 (binutils 2.15) 15:40:39 It's even compiling! 15:40:42 elliott: At least you can then use the raw-binary formats (and maybe a custom linker script) to extract raw m68k code you can then wrap in whatever you like. 15:40:53 fizzie: Ye-es, but I could do that with the Totally Native Fork format, too. 15:40:57 I'm trying to avoid MORE work here :P 15:41:03 fizzie, where does that dump data segment? 15:41:31 elliott, how are you going to transport a resource fork to a mac after cross compiling? 15:41:42 Vorpal: Exactly, I'm not. 15:41:44 I'm going to use a.out. :p 15:41:58 is the fork data format even documented? 15:42:22 My department's web page added a "featured faculty member" to the front page. 15:42:25 It chooses a random faculty member and shows their name and face. 15:42:25 So much fail. 15:42:47 Vorpal: It dumps the sections in whichever addresses you link them. I don't know if it actually generates huge files if you link things sparsely. 15:43:12 gcc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I. -D_GNU_SOURCE -I. -I. -I../bfd -I./config -I./../include -I./.. -I./../bfd -I./../intl -I../intl -DLOCALEDIR="\"/opt/mac/share/locale\"" -W -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -g -O2 -c app.c 15:43:12 In file included from ./targ-cpu.h:1, 15:43:12 from ./config/obj-aout.h:25, 15:43:12 from ./obj-format.h:1, 15:43:13 from ./config/te-generic.h:19, 15:43:15 from targ-env.h:1, 15:43:17 from as.h:626, 15:43:19 from app.c:30: 15:43:21 ./config/tc-m68k.h:212: error: array type has incomplete element type 15:43:23 On "make install". 15:43:25 "Uh." 15:43:34 Any... suggestions? 15:43:41 "Fix the bug." 15:43:41 --target= is right, right? :-P 15:43:44 elliott, hey you can click a line in the resedit disassembler and find any references to that address 15:43:47 that's cool 15:43:55 and it shows with nicely coloured arrows 15:43:57 As in, I'm on A, I want to build a compiler that runs on A, and I want it to produce binaries for B 15:43:59 That's --target=? 15:44:05 for stuff like conditional/unconditional jumps 15:44:07 Yes, that sounds correct. 15:44:16 Mrf. 15:44:33 fizzie: What was that nice version you mentioned? 15:44:36 (Time to go catch the bus homewards.) 15:44:38 With all the suppooooooort. 15:44:59 m68k-coff-gcc-2.7.2.3 in the context of uClinux I did see. 15:45:10 It was 11 or something 15:45:27 Oh, binutils. 15:45:28 2.11.2? 15:45:37 elliott, grep log? 15:45:37 2.11.2, yes; but it was support for compiling binutils with MPW. 15:45:42 elliott, he is going to a bus 15:45:45 Yes, but that sounds suitable 2001-vintage. 15:45:49 Vorpal: The system bus? 15:45:57 elliott, I doubt it 15:45:58 Well, you can try; but it seemed quite powerpc-oriented in the docs. 15:46:12 fizzie: It'll be just the same, it's just tahat older = nicerrrr!!!11 15:46:17 I dont wanna build it with mpw no heavens i am not the crazies. 15:46:25 Anyway, if gcc-2.7.2.3 compiles as m68k-coff, the same age might work for m68k-aout. 15:46:31 Now really, gone. 15:47:25 now you made me want to replay Avernum 15:47:31 elliott, and I don't have time for that 15:47:44 Vorpal: have fun!!!! 15:48:00 elliott, I will refrain from it. That would be several days of playing. 15:48:22 play it on Euphoma. 15:48:31 elliott, that doesn't make sense 15:48:38 elliott, it runs under mac os, not unix 15:48:39 Sure it does. 15:48:44 Euphoma can invoke native programs. 15:48:46 elliott, also it is PPC 15:48:55 Euphoma is meant to be portable :P 15:49:04 Things that work on 68k should work on PPC, I'm just going lowest-common-denominator here to start with. 15:50:06 bucomm.o: In function `make_tempname': 15:50:06 /opt/mac/src/binutils-2.11.2/binutils/bucomm.c:246: warning: the use of `mktemp' is dangerous, better use `mkstemp' or `mkdtemp' 15:50:09 OH NOES INSECURE BINUTILS 15:50:18 SAME ERROR 15:50:18 SAME 15:50:20 FUCKING 15:50:50 Things that work on 68k should work on PPC, I'm just going lowest-common-denominator here to start with. <-- best logic ever 15:51:06 Gregor: It's basically true, the m68k is retarded, PPC is not :-P 15:51:19 Every technique or format I choose for m68k out of simplicity will work on PPC, as wasteful or stupid as it might be. 15:51:37 extern struct relax_type md_relax_table[]; 15:51:39 INCOMPLETE ELEMTNT TYPE 15:51:40 NO SHIT SHERLOCK 15:51:47 OK so, this shit doesn't work with gcc 4 X-D 15:52:11 Gregor, apple added emulation for 68k basically :P 15:52:25 Gregor, so yes it should work on ppc macs 15:52:48 Vorpal: I assumed he meant work as in be convertible, not work as in "I can run it in a VM herp durp" 15:52:57 Since unlike him, I assume people aren't idiots. 15:53:24 Gregor: An assumption that has cost you a great amount. 15:53:25 Gregor, classic MacOS is retarded because they didn't want to break compatibility :P 15:53:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:53:35 Gregor, so bad design choices stayed 15:53:42 Gregor: For instance when Bush won, that must have been quite surprising. 15:53:50 elliott, what 15:54:00 talk sense 15:54:17 Since unlike him, I assume people aren't idiots. 15:54:43 ah 15:54:55 OK, let me put that differently :P 15:55:02 I address people under the assumption that they are not idiots. 15:55:16 In spite of whatever my personal assumptions or guesses may be, contrary or otherwise. 15:55:33 If m68k is retarded, 8086 is some sort of ultra-retarded then. (In other words, diss on the OS/systems, not on the cpu arch.) 15:55:41 Gregor: When I do that, usually I spend half an hour backwards-and-forthing before I realise that they did something stupid, and I tell them, and they're all "why didn't you tell me". 15:55:48 And it's because I assumed they weren't fucking idiots 15:55:52 So it's for your own good. 15:56:44 one might consider that it would be an idea to make one's assumptions have a finer gradation than "idiot" and "never says anything idiotic" 15:57:03 oerjan: sure, people earn that granularity 15:57:12 it's called intelligent cpu cycle allocation 15:57:21 Gregor had not yet earned such granularity in the context of minecraft :P 15:57:31 fizzie, x86 is retarded though :P 15:58:08 elliott: i am pointing out that it is not a good idea have those two as the default options 15:58:18 oerjan: got a better selection? 15:58:22 Vorpal only uses ... Alpha. 15:58:43 Gregor, har. I don't know that arch well enough to comment on retardedness of it 15:59:04 Vorpal only uses ... MIPS? 15:59:15 *to 15:59:16 itanium's instruction set looks pretty cool, am i weird for thinking this? 15:59:27 VORPAL ONLY USES HARDWARE IMPLEMENTATIONS OF JAVA 15:59:29 Gregor, I'm pragmatic though. I use x86-6. 15:59:32 sadly 15:59:36 I hate the arch 15:59:38 6-bit x86 15:59:39 Vorpal: So, x80? 15:59:42 err 15:59:43 64 * 15:59:44 :P 16:00:05 Vorpal secretly uses a Reduceron. 16:00:07 elliott: not that i can explain in words 16:00:13 elliott, I'd love to 16:00:15 Who needs numbers greater than 64 anyway. 16:00:31 Gregor: It can express the number of bits in the more common variant of x86! 16:00:38 But not, however, the original 8086 model number. 16:00:49 Wait, it's actually 0 to 63. 16:00:49 elliott: PERFECT 16:00:57 IT CAN'T EVEN REPRESENT THE CONCEPT OF 64 BITS 16:01:06 Yeah, I should have said "greater than or equal to" :P 16:01:18 elliott, btw you said eww about Harvard arches but there is actually quite a good reason to use them in SOC. You can use flash that you can execute directly from. No need to copy program to RAM 16:01:23 Where are our bit-addressible archs :P 16:01:32 elliott, saves silicon space 16:01:39 Vorpal: von neumann computers are kinda like cellular automata if you squint tho 16:01:39 so 16:01:46 Gregor: Bit-addressable would rock :P 16:01:55 elliott, not sure how that addresses my statement :P 16:01:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:02:01 Vorpal: ca are cool 16:02:14 elliott, yes and it doesn't address what I just said 16:02:32 Gregor: How about this: Everything is 1 bit, there are 256 registers, memory is bit-addressed by passing 64 values. 16:02:33 also I don't see how "von neumann computers are kinda like cellular automata if you squint tho" 16:03:23 Gregor: If the base registers are a[0-256], then bytes are h[0-32]. 16:03:48 Gregor: And, uhh, wait, we need more than 256 registers by far :P 16:03:56 ais523: hmm, not on the wikipedia page, but IIRC oerjan pretty much slam-dunked it once 16:04:01 Gregor: Try 1,024 registers. 16:04:05 Gregor: Of one bit each. 16:04:09 i certainly cannot recall proving dupdog definitely non-TC 16:04:36 Gregor: And while you can say "deref a b c d [...]", it's more convenient to say "deref b64.r3" or something :-P 16:04:41 COME ON, BEST ARCHITECTURE EVER 16:04:45 Oh wait. 16:04:48 That's just 2^64 BITS. 16:05:02 that should be enough for everyone 16:05:07 ... 16:05:09 thank you google: 16:05:13 hmm, or is it anyone? 16:05:13 "2^64 bits in petabyes" 16:05:15 "(2^64) bytes = 16 384 petabytes" 16:05:19 "Showing results for 2^64 bytes in petabytes. Search instead for 2^64 bits in petabyes" 16:05:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:05:25 2048 petabytes 16:05:29 elliott: haha 16:05:31 clearly not enough 16:05:37 that's quite a dym 16:05:51 we need 67-bit addresses 16:05:57 if we're going bit-addressable 16:05:59 ais523: dym? 16:06:05 Kaksikymmentneljtuntiaikakausitmnhetkinen 16:06:09 wtfbbq people :P 16:06:10 i would say my current best guess is that it isn't TC, but then my initial best guess was non-TC for every non-trivial step of my recent underload endeavour, and i was wrong every time :D 16:06:11 did-you-mean 16:06:27 So yes, 2,048 registers :-P 16:06:31 oerjan: well, I thought the 2,3 machine was non-TC to start off with 16:06:33 Wow, translate.google.com actually understood that ... "Twenty-Four Hour Period As One moment" 16:06:38 Which gives you slightly less than 32 full addresses in registers. 16:06:40 Gregor: Yep :-P 16:06:46 Gregor: It's the word I meticulously constructed with oklopol's help in Finnish. 16:06:54 It means "day", if you're insane. 16:06:54 Gregor: that doesn't look like proper Finnish, though 16:07:07 oklopol understood it, that's good enough for me. 16:07:08 tämänhetkinen = current 16:07:11 yeah 16:07:13 it's "today" 16:07:20 I don't see the "as one moment" 16:07:23 anywhere 16:07:28 Close enough :P 16:07:30 Google does :P 16:07:44 anyway it's a pretty word 16:07:48 some finn pronounce it and upload the wav 16:07:51 i can only imagine it will sound amazing 16:08:00 alas, I have a vague Swedish accent 16:08:03 so I won't 16:08:08 that sounds even funnier, do it 16:08:13 k 16:08:14 say bork bork bork at the end 16:08:16 that's vital 16:08:24 otherwise how can i take you seriously, you might not be a real swede. 16:08:36 elliott, that isn't even Swedish in any sense 16:08:36 ais523: btw for that one, is there a definite proof that it isn't TC with finite initialization? 16:08:48 Vorpal: Your mom isn't Swedish in any sense. 16:08:50 She's un-Swedish. 16:08:53 no, there isn't 16:08:56 not really no 16:08:58 heh 16:09:09 there is a proof that it's non-TC unless you have infinitely many white cells, but that isn't particularly useful 16:09:23 Gregor: Quick, add !dupdog so that oerjan can start proving. 16:09:38 ais523, isn't that just saying that it needs infinite memory to be TC? 16:09:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:09:52 Vorpal: no 16:09:56 ais523, oh okay 16:09:59 "infinitely many cells" is obviously needed 16:10:04 ah 16:10:06 but nothing in TCness implies that an infinite subset of them have to be white 16:10:13 :t even 16:10:14 forall a. (Integral a) => a -> Bool 16:10:19 ais523, what is the set of possible colours? 16:10:31 white, yellow, orange in most of the Wolfram drawings of the machine 16:10:34 although I just call them 0,1,2 16:10:52 (I don't think anyone's tried to draw the machine but the Wolfram people and me) 16:10:58 ais523, hm 16:11:12 http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg 16:11:26 whoops, I should've added a bork bork bork there :| 16:11:27 ais523, so is it a CA or TM what? I think I need to read up on dupdog 16:11:30 or what* 16:11:36 Zwaarddijk: 403 16:11:38 also, you're miekko? 16:11:39 what, dupdog? 16:11:44 elliott: yes 16:11:48 o 16:11:49 elliott, who? 16:11:53 Vorpal: another guy in here 16:11:54 it's one of those joke esolangs that's not quite obviously stupid 16:11:55 just assumed it was like 16:11:56 a finn influx 16:11:58 finnflux 16:12:05 QUICK, someone upload it to the wiki as a pronunciation key! 16:12:15 oh that one, right 16:12:28 Gregor: YES 16:12:29 what, dupdog? <-- I thought you were talking about dupdog above 16:12:34 ais523, or was that just elliott? 16:12:37 Zwaarddijk: MAKE IT NON-403 SO QUICKLY 16:12:44 ais523, in that case which language *were* you talking about 16:12:51 ais523: we can't have tha fnacy pronunciation icon right? 16:12:52 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 16:12:54 *the fancy 16:12:55 that wikipedia has 16:12:57 cuz of license 16:12:58 the conversation was about more than one language 16:13:00 Dear connection: What the hell? 16:13:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:13:11 dupdog was one mentioned, but so were Xigxag and the 2,3 machine 16:13:17 oh 16:13:17 ais523, ah 16:13:28 elliott, how is it even related to our wiki (that sound) 16:13:34 also, minimized Underload, although that doesn't fit the question 16:13:56 that's random - usually, stuff I scp there gets the right permissions immediately 16:14:05 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:14:12 apparently this time stuff didn't work out like that :| 16:14:34 Vorpal: it's the pronunciation of what's on the homepage 16:15:00 Zwaarddijk: Permission to upload that to the wiki as public domain? :-P 16:15:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:15:07 elliott, where? 16:15:07 ais523: heh now i wonder if you could remove something more from underload if you allowed an infinite program :D 16:15:14 Vorpal: lern2wiki 16:15:27 elliott, I don't know what to search for 16:15:31 home page 16:15:41 ah there 16:15:41 right 16:15:50 elliott: sure 16:15:51 go ahead 16:16:06 altho' as I said, I have a bit of an accent, altho' that accent is sort of recursive 16:16:20 my Swedish is basically Swedish as influenced 500 years by Finnish 16:16:26 oerjan: presumably : 16:16:29 I doubt it, somehow 16:16:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:16:50 and Finnish is influenced by germanic anyway, so we end up with ... some kind of converging shit 16:16:56 Upload warning 16:16:56 ".ogg" is not a recommended image file format. 16:17:03 hah 16:17:12 elliott: "homepage"? 16:17:14 "Warning"; I don't see any way to IGNORE that warning :P 16:17:17 ais523: ojgoidfjgiodfogd haven't slept 16:17:27 ais523: Can FANCY ADMINS LIKE YOU upload oggs? 16:17:29 elliott: there's normally an "ignore warnings" checkbox 16:17:31 ais523: yeah it would seem that you could then _never_ get information out of a stack 16:17:35 on the upload form 16:17:36 oh indeed 16:17:51 ais523: doesn't stop it 16:17:55 oerjan: is a one-way information transfer enough? 16:17:59 elliott, allowed upload types are defined in the MW config, so I'm guessing no. 16:18:03 maybe 16:18:05 elliott: oh, if even with the override it doesn't work, I can't override it either 16:18:12 as it must be being done at the PHP level 16:18:16 * elliott just makes a fake page for the pronunciation 16:18:18 Pester graue; he's responded recently. 16:18:20 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:18:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:18:55 oh, I'd be surprised if graue didn't respond to emails 16:19:07 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 16:19:43 Zwaarddijk: Thank you for your valuable service to the community. 16:20:09 you're welcome 16:20:23 I think we can all agree that the world of esolangs was advanced today. 16:20:52 would've been advanced even more if I had an esoteric finnish dialect. 16:21:00 something like, uh, ingrian or somesuch 16:21:08 it's ok, we have an esoteric word to make up for it 16:21:17 I think I can pull that off, though, as they all are knee-deep in Russians 16:21:20 now someone make an esolang based on it so nobody can complain 16:21:22 and therefore sound, unsurprisingly, like Russians? 16:21:26 preferably kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen should be the cat program 16:23:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:24:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:25:25 Zwaarddijk: I have decoded your hostile language. 16:25:26 http://sprunge.us/FZcJ 16:26:04 lessee without :, (A)(^B) is equivalent to (AB) 16:26:27 Is this some esolang based on Finnish? 16:26:33 Phantom__Hoover: Yes. 16:26:51 Phantom__Hoover: Based on randomly decomposing fake Finnish words, that is :P 16:27:24 ((A1)...(An)B) is equivalent to (A1)...(An)(B) 16:27:43 actually tuntiai can decompose into tunti (null), ai (equals) 16:28:21 APNIC down 0.01: 4k to India, 64k to China, 256 to Hong Kong. Slow day. 16:28:55 (A)^ is of course equivalent to A 16:29:13 Ilari: aren't slow days a /good/ thing in this context? 16:29:15 elliott: you've dropped an "m" 16:29:19 between 16:29:21 ausitä 16:29:23 and än 16:29:35 i think this allows you to recude everything down to an at most 1 level deep expression 16:29:39 *reduce 16:29:45 Zwaarddijk: män is now end of block :P 16:30:11 Zwaarddijk: http://sprunge.us/KdMF 16:30:42 hm or wait you can have (^(^(^...))) 16:30:45 good 16:31:25 Zwaarddijk: Do any of those decomposed elements have meaning in Finnish? :P 16:31:46 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:32:41 tunti = hour 16:32:59 NOTHING ELSE? 16:33:02 -nen = affix used to form adjectives 16:33:17 ai = exclamation a bit like "oh" 16:35:14 -ki = colloquial variation on -kin, a suffix meaning "even, too, also" 16:35:19 BORING 16:35:21 :P 16:38:26 also, every single one of those probably means something in japanese too >:) 16:39:13 Vorpal: whas good n64 emulator cant typ 16:39:17 if you cut Finnish up randomly it often looks very japanese 16:39:29 but if you just let it be like it is, it's distinct enough 16:39:35 iirc pikhq said that with simple substutition the bug word became nonsense japanese 16:39:46 Zwaarddijk: i bet letter-based markov bots are fun in finnish 16:40:32 never tried one, but .. uh, afaict markov-bots can't maintain vowel harmony? 16:40:39 Zwaarddijk: who cares 16:40:40 agglutinative! 16:40:48 yeah but, vowel harmony is v. important for Finnish 16:40:53 it looks more estonian if you drop it 16:40:55 that's what she said :/ 16:41:01 ok estonian then :P 16:41:05 otoh, estonian is pretty 16:41:11 Vorpal: whas good n64 emulator cant typ <-- for linux mupen64plus is your best bet 16:41:17 heard there were better ones for windows 16:41:18 (and estonian chicks, my god, some of them are crazily beautiful) 16:41:24 elliott, anyway how goes the toolchain? 16:41:25 Vorpal: assume i have infinitely powerful hardware 16:41:34 toolchain i'm holding off on until i decide on object format/versions 16:41:41 suure 16:41:42 Zwaarddijk: why couldn't they maintain vowel harmony, it's a simple finite state thing... 16:41:46 elliott, I don't know any cycle accurate one if that is what you mean 16:41:52 Vorpal: heck no, that's excessive 16:42:07 you might need to adjust them a little for it 16:42:08 elliott, for linux mupen64plus is the only one I know of 16:42:10 yeah looks like mupen is the only one 16:42:19 elliott, the "Plus" bit is important 16:42:29 Vorpal: any emulation pitfalls? 16:42:34 i'm gonna try out sm64 finally :P 16:43:12 elliott, sm64? 16:43:17 sup- mar- 16:43:19 ah 16:43:49 elliott: that's the only game that mupen emulates correctly pretty much no matter what the settings are 16:43:58 elliott, and yes the emulation is not perfect. No noticeable issues in mario64 though 16:43:59 it's incredibly picky on every other game for the console 16:44:03 ais523: unsurprising 16:44:08 Vorpal: i heard something about a beam of light 16:44:10 becoming like 16:44:10 a line 16:44:12 ais523, zelda64 oot works fairly well too 16:44:13 in the logs 16:44:23 anyway, why don't you just play the DS version? it's still on sale 16:44:25 elliott, hm possibly. 16:44:26 maybe we _do_ need a cycle-accurate nintendo 64 emulator :) 16:44:34 if we can't trust people to write a decent higher-level one 16:44:51 ais523: I find the DS uncomfortably small to play for long periods of time i.e. any longer game 16:44:57 ais523: and prefer originals to remakes 16:45:10 elliott, you can/could get most games to work. But the last mupen64plus version lacks a GUI. They rewrote the large bits but never ported the GUI over 16:45:16 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:45:17 so you need to fiddle with command line args 16:45:22 should be easy for mario64 16:45:25 sounds pleasant 16:45:28 but for most other games *shudder* 16:45:28 oh, I find computers uncomfortably large 16:45:41 ais523: it's about the display for me 16:45:51 ais523: I'm fine with a tiny gamepad, but I can't play on a small screen 16:45:54 elliott, for mario64 it is probably just ./mupen64plus mario.v64 (or whatever extension it is) 16:46:04 Vorpal: yes, once I rip the ROM from my cartridge 16:46:10 elliott, XD 16:46:11 therefore no more needs to be said 16:46:14 Zwaarddijk: i guess the problem is that you could have arbitrary long chains without a vowel of specific harmony, so you cannot use a finite length chain ... although i think fizzie looked at markov chains with adjustable length 16:47:10 (for fungot's babbling) 16:47:10 oerjan: http://www.youtube.com/ fnord but rather violent... nothing for sensitive people 16:47:23 i don't actually know too much about markov chains, I should probably read up 16:47:44 Zwaarddijk: they're trivial 16:48:01 fizzie: ok you need to wrap up a letter-based, vowel harmony preserving finnish style for fungot ;D 16:48:02 oerjan: time for lesson 2? what about godel is also gödel is undecidable. of course. but that view won't help anything. shivers wrote it years ago; it's there. 16:48:06 Zwaarddijk: for babble generation: you have a map (last N units) => {set of (following unit, probability)} 16:48:17 you start with a START token, pick a random next one weighted by probability 16:48:23 repeat taking the last N from your output 16:48:25 until you reach END 16:48:27 easy 16:49:33 Zwaarddijk: units can be words or vowels or whatever ofc 16:50:51 Of course, to preserve specific harmony, one could put the current harmony (not known, front, back) among those last N units. 16:51:16 ah, I thought they were defined as last units => set of following units (altho' that's equivalent, really) 16:51:27 kälastijokenäpakaäileimen 16:51:37 Zwaarddijk: yep, but the probability is of course important 16:51:41 to generate even vaguely coherent things 16:52:02 you can basically just insert by frequency and then turn that into weighting to make things simpelr from an implementation POV of course 16:52:02 yes, well, I left that sort of implicit there 16:52:07 right 16:52:11 well that's how they are defined then 16:52:16 erg, I typoed 16:52:24 I meant "last unit => set of following units" 16:52:29 ah 16:52:32 Zwaarddijk: that's just an order-1 markov chain 16:52:35 ah, k 16:52:39 Zwaarddijk: which...works, but won't produce anything coherent at all 16:52:47 yeah it's not entirely equivalent 16:52:51 Zwaarddijk: "what comes after 'a'" "oh, occasionally 'x'" "axoiajdioasjoisdfksngdfbslkjerbg" 16:53:16 which is the name of a small mountain in georgian. 16:53:34 you should go for something in salishan languages instead 16:53:36 (note: not _entirely_ accurate) 16:53:52 then you could do things like qsqvkdmllqklitsk 16:54:06 Of course, the more units are considered, the larger the tables (and more difficult to estimate the probabilties). 16:54:08 oh i accidentally almost typed clit in there 16:54:19 Ilari: you just need a large corpus 16:54:22 gutenberg that shit up 16:54:33 a clitical error 16:54:55 salishan languages actually challenge the idea that syllables are a linguistic universal :) 16:55:51 Zwaarddijk: That's a load of bullshdifogrjknydnmdfhjkgslvfkdghksjdkdjgjksletapw;rlmvo*£$&@*(!@)~{P_@)(~~ 16:56:01 "They are characterised by agglutinativity and astonishing consonant clusters — for instance the Nuxálk word xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓ (IPA: [xɬpʼχʷɬtʰɬpʰɬːskʷʰt͡sʼ]) meaning ‘he had had [in his possession] a bunchberry plant’ has thirteen obstruent consonants in a row with no vowels." 16:56:01 oh god 16:56:05 that's the sexiest word i've ever seen. 16:56:13 it has no pronunciation link though, i want a pronunciation link 16:57:01 Huh, the chemical symbol for tungsten comes from "wolfram". 16:57:17 someone tried to upload a pronunciation, but he choked on his tongue 16:57:24 THIS CAN PROBABLY BE PLAYED WITH IN SOME HILARIOUS WAY 16:57:51 Phantom__Hoover: it's called wolfram in norwegian 16:57:56 i forbid funny 16:58:09 it's a new kind of element 17:00:31 Wow, the Mario 64 title screen is ... disturbing. 17:01:13 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:01:48 Vorpal: Does mupen64 no longer support configuring KEYS? :P 17:02:16 elliott, through a config file iirc... 17:02:22 Vorpal: It has a GUI here... 17:02:23 v1.6 17:02:25 er 17:02:25 1.5 17:02:59 elliott, oh then you can find it under settings. Look for the configuration of which input plugin to use 17:03:07 yes, the settings don't pop up anything 17:03:07 elliott, I assume you use sdl? 17:03:14 sdl input. yes. the only available one. 17:03:15 for input 17:03:23 elliott, then click config it or such 17:03:27 ffs 17:03:27 if that doesn't work I don't know 17:03:28 it pops 17:03:29 up nothing 17:07:27 ais523: do you know of any compilers that are truly single-pass? 17:07:55 as in, never ever go back to anything they've previously covered for any reason? 17:08:00 it'd have to be not AST-based 17:08:00 ais523: yep 17:08:03 indeed 17:08:08 I imagine some stupid BF compilers work like that 17:08:10 wasn't original pascal single-pass 17:08:19 ok maybe not that strictly... 17:08:23 well 17:08:26 i can lax it SLIGHTLY :) 17:08:27 as in, infix ops are ok 17:08:32 oerjan: I was thinking about that, but not sure if it matched the restriction 17:09:24 i like how mupen64plus doesn't trust you with its build system 17:09:29 it just gives you an optionless shell script to use insetad. 17:09:30 if remembering the position of a previous element counts as going back to it, then even bf looks hard... 17:09:31 *instead. 17:09:39 Oh god, there's more tau stuff on the front page of Reddit. 17:09:43 Phantom__Hoover: tau? 17:09:47 Oh, as in "OMG PI"? 17:09:49 2pi. 17:09:51 Yep. 17:09:58 oerjan: you can compile it into while { and } 17:10:01 oerjan: ais523: Let's say: You can keep track of state as you see it, but there must be NO backtracking in the input stream. 17:10:04 without tracking the nesting at all yourself 17:10:09 And you must never go back an arbitrary distance? 17:10:11 In a single rule? 17:10:17 elliott: in the input stream? then it's easy, you can just load the file into memory 17:10:21 and work from that 17:10:29 ais523: nope, because that involves going back arbitrarily 17:10:33 in the saved data 17:10:41 (if you're using that to subvert the restriction) 17:10:52 i.e., in (a + b), + only has to look one back 17:10:55 to find the previous expr 17:11:04 being able to say (... a b c + d) would not be OK 17:11:10 elliott: ok so it's LR(k) parsing-wise, at least 17:11:28 oerjan: hmm, maybe i should restrict it more :) 17:11:33 but that's not a very big restriction 17:13:20 elliott: one thing i thought of is that you can only write a bounded amount of computer result for a bounded amount of input, while always going forward in both input and compiled stream 17:13:38 *compiler result 17:14:25 this means of course that compiling a [ cannot look at the corresponding ]... 17:14:32 (for bf) 17:15:04 but then it becomes very dependent on the branching power of the language you are compiling _into_ 17:15:52 oerjan: assume you can define labels, at least 17:16:47 Vorpal: so, uh... nintendo 64 without a gamepad or joystick 17:16:48 BEST IDEA 17:17:02 yeah then you could do it by assigning the label name for the ] when you hit the [ 17:17:50 (you also need the label for [ of course) 17:18:16 -!- cheater- has joined. 17:18:20 (then the question becomes whether using the label for [ counts as going backwards or not) 17:19:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:19:30 oerjan: no, because you can use a stack 17:19:33 and you only have to look back one 17:19:42 Vorpal: so, uh... nintendo 64 without a gamepad or joystick <-- I used keyboard since an aircraft joystick doesn't work well with games assuming a gamepad 17:19:54 the range of movement is so very different 17:19:56 hm you could make [ push its label at runtime instead, so you didn't have to let ] look at the [ label while compiling 17:20:01 I really need to buy a solid PS2 controller and use it forever. 17:20:23 oerjan: you could also compile all langs into source + interp that way and bypass all restrictions... 17:21:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:21:55 mhm 17:24:23 Vorpal: this castle is a bit dramatic. 17:24:31 elliott, hm? 17:24:37 At the start. 17:24:44 elliott, eh, maybe 17:25:36 Start = "key(13)" 17:25:42 I sure hope you can just say "A" and "B" and the like here. 17:26:07 elliott, not that I know of 17:26:30 elliott, I think they are sdl keycodes anyway 17:30:21 Vorpal: THIS GAME DOES NOT HAVE ALL THE NICE MOVING STUFF GALAXY HAS 17:30:34 elliott, er? 17:30:35 I miss crouch-backflipping, catching on to a wall, kicking off, then spinning. 17:30:47 elliott, you can do a wall jump if that is what you mean 17:30:51 but I guess not 17:30:53 BUT WHAT ABOUT THER EST 17:30:54 *THE REST 17:31:15 elliott, you can do long jumps by crouching (Z iirc?) and then jumpng 17:31:23 Can you do a backflip? 17:31:27 elliott, yes pretty sure 17:31:31 Can you follow a backflip with a wall jump? 17:31:35 no idea 17:32:10 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12249172 17:32:12 What could go wrong? 17:32:23 elliott, anyway changes in later games. What else would you expect 17:32:30 Changes for the better :P 17:32:44 elliott, next you will demand these kind of things in SMB! 17:32:52 smb was boring 17:32:58 a bit yes 17:33:14 not sure how i feel about this game anthropomorphising bombs as happy, carefree creatures 17:33:20 Lymia, UNLESS THE PAEDOS USE IT TO TRACK OUR CHILDREN!!!!!! 17:35:49 * oerjan recalls once upon a time he was in a role-playing game with a happy, carefree missile 17:36:51 wtf, mate 17:37:38 (we sold it to the local mafia. it seemed like the least dangerous option.) 17:38:18 hm actually the missile wasn't the main thing we sold, just something that happened to be stored on the premises. 17:40:43 oerjan: L(0.5) 17:40:51 oerjan: ok hm so what's LR(1) for this one-pass thing 17:40:54 ...what? 17:41:00 *LR(0.5) 17:41:01 it was a joke :P 17:41:05 oerjan: you can look at the last production generated? 17:41:10 would that be LR(1)? 17:41:11 but no more? 17:41:15 that'd mean you could not do nested loops 17:41:25 LR(1) uses a stack and a finite state 17:41:33 hm right 17:41:36 What are you talking about. 17:41:41 Lymia: things 17:43:11 -!- cheater00 has joined. 17:43:23 which reminds me somehow of that right bracket language 17:43:56 (i don't think going to the next _non-matched_ bracket can do nesting either) 17:44:12 so is LR(!) actually sufficient for bf here? 17:44:25 what's ! ? 17:44:28 er 17:44:28 1 17:44:33 And what about LL(1) ;-P 17:44:49 bf is certainly LR(1) in the usual sense, and i think LL(1) too 17:45:03 oerjan: right, but is that actually relevant to this compilery thing 17:45:06 because it has to keep its state like that too 17:45:08 might even be LR(0) if you look at it the right way 17:45:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:45:32 or hm 17:46:15 elliott: well i think the labels can be put on the same stack if that's what you mean 17:46:30 oerjan: i'm just figuring with my "can only access a bounded amount back" 17:46:37 how small it can get while still being able to compile Pascal-- ;D 17:47:01 well pascal more or less requires a dictionary, doesn't it 17:47:33 there is no requirement to only use variables in stack order of definition :D 17:47:55 oerjan: that would be an awesome requirement :D 17:48:02 possibly even the best 17:48:30 hm what would lambda calculus look like with that 17:48:42 confusing 17:48:48 (to minimize a bit) 17:48:52 yeah 17:48:56 Pascal --> lambda calculus 17:48:58 an obvious simplification 17:49:11 they _do_ share the lexical scoping 17:50:51 WELL THERE IS THAT 17:50:57 inside a \x -> ..., all accesses to x must come before all accesses to outer variables 17:51:46 so say \x y -> y (\z -> z y) x is legal 17:53:00 it turns out it's equivalent to the superstrict lambda calculus, i deduced this because i'm a genius 17:53:07 O KAY 17:53:08 don't have any reasoning, just told my past self (i.e. my present self) it was so 17:53:13 so i guess i figure it out in a few years, stay tuned 17:54:01 you have i = \x -> x and k = \x y -> x both legal 17:54:23 There is an idiot on BBC news claiming that the Fukushima plant has basically gone Chernobyl and it's being covered up. 17:54:47 s = \x y z -> x z (y z) is not, at least in that form 17:54:53 \x y z -> x z (y z) 17:55:01 \x y z -> z y (y x) 17:55:06 I think that's OK 17:55:09 \x y z -> z y (y x) 17:55:13 or can you not mention it twice? 17:55:22 twice is ok 17:56:04 oerjan: \x y z -> (\a c b d -> a b (c d)) x y z z 17:56:06 oh, needs reversing 17:56:08 but that's trivial 17:56:30 is it 17:57:42 oerjan: yes. 17:57:44 um are you saying that gives s 17:57:58 oerjan: i'm... hypothesising that that gives s, if you make it queue order instead 17:58:10 oerjan: \x y z -> (\a b c d -> a c (b d)) x y z z 17:58:13 clearer form :P 17:58:15 except 17:58:16 oh wait 17:58:17 lol 17:58:18 im dum 17:58:19 ignore 17:58:35 well what about that reversing, hm 17:58:43 well its broken 17:58:46 oerjan: \x y z -> (\a c b d -> a b (c d)) x y z z 17:58:47 note "c b" 17:58:52 but i'm sure you just need flip 17:58:59 \f x y. f y x 17:58:59 nope 17:59:04 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:59:05 \f x y. y x f 17:59:21 \f x y. (\y' x' f'. f' x' y') y x f 17:59:25 ok so that's apply :D 17:59:34 er 17:59:43 stack order this time 18:00:05 hm 18:00:08 too hard to think ;_; 18:00:15 do my thinks for me oerjan 18:01:24 a little adjustment of that gives you compose 18:01:41 I see functional programming. 18:01:44 I'm not sure if I want. 18:01:47 \f x y. (\y' x' f'. f' (x' y')) y x f 18:02:03 Lymia: this isn't functional programming. 18:02:06 this is pathological functional programming. 18:02:13 *dysfunctional 18:02:31 that was stolen for something on the wiki already i think :) 18:02:43 yeah 18:03:01 > showHex 666 "" 18:03:02 "29a" 18:03:52 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 18:03:59 http://esolangs.org/wiki/0x29A 18:04:09 What does that second argument do? 18:04:24 > showHex 666 "foo" 18:04:25 "29afoo" 18:04:29 ... 18:04:38 @i showHex 18:04:39 Maybe you meant: id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect . ? @ v 18:04:43 :i showHex 18:04:51 @type showHex 18:04:53 forall a. (Integral a) => a -> String -> String 18:05:04 Huh. 18:05:22 Oh, wait, it's that appendy string thing, isn't it? 18:05:59 elliott, still playing or did you get bored? 18:06:08 i got distracted :) 18:06:17 and also really fucking tired 18:06:25 -!- elliott has left (?). 18:06:27 ah 18:06:27 -!- elliott has joined. 18:06:28 ojfg 18:06:33 elliott, sleep well 18:07:27 Jesus, actually reading about the Chernobyl disaster is depressing. 18:08:13 Vorpal: um 18:08:15 who said im sleeping lol 18:08:17 thats for fags? 18:09:42 -_- 18:10:35 Phantom__Hoover: Every three years or so I wikiread the topic with a non-deterministic depth-limited BFS for a day or three. (Not sure why.) 18:10:48 fizzie, Chernobyl? 18:10:57 Right. 18:11:11 Last time I did that I did find this photo, though: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Peacekeeper-missile-testing.jpg 18:11:58 fizzie, how can you do a BFS on a graph? 18:12:07 Awesome picture, BtW. 18:12:25 -!- atrapado has joined. 18:12:30 Breadth-first search; how *couldn't* you do that on a graph? 18:13:33 fizzie, technically by not performing it 18:14:42 Well, yes. But doing it with a browser is borderline trivial. Or at least with a config that makes "open in new tab" open at the end of the tab bar. 18:14:53 yes 18:15:51 a yway cherlaer chernobyl deserved it because of perl harbor 18:16:22 Totally. 18:16:32 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:16:43 glad you agree 18:16:55 yeah how dared those russians push perl on us 18:17:14 inour oaeubrs no less!k1'1 18:17:30 oerjan: hows a wootake 18:17:51 elliott: hallucinating yet? 18:17:57 oerjan: no :( 18:18:15 elliott, yes 18:18:19 not sufficiently deprived, then 18:18:19 Vorpal: no. 18:18:22 just depraved 18:18:23 elliott, this IRC thing is all in your mind 18:18:27 oerjan: think i should oo for 72 hrs?????? 18:18:49 ooing for 72 hours is _not_ recommended 18:18:54 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:18:58 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:01 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:01 it'll ruin your voice cords 18:19:07 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:10 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:13 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:16 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:17 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:23 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:25 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:28 Oh no. 18:19:29 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:33 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:34 oooooooo 18:19:38 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:39 klo 18:19:39 oooooooooooooooo 18:19:41 ooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:42 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:44 oklo 18:19:44 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:46 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:49 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:51 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:54 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:55 Someone tell Sgeo so he can fret. 18:19:57 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:59 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:19:59 kickban in... 18:20:00 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | what now?. 18:20:01 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 18:20:02 ooooooooo 18:20:03 ooooo 18:20:05 o 18:20:07 o 18:20:08 9 18:20:09 18:20:11 o 18:20:13 8 18:20:13 what did optbot do? 18:20:13 Vorpal: å 18:20:17 .. 18:20:39 optbot is elliott's latest stupid project. 18:20:40 Phantom__Hoover: I rarely, if ever, read it. 18:20:48 Phantom__Hoover: IT'S FROM 2008 18:20:53 jesus chrsit 18:20:55 elliott, so? 18:20:56 it's been here longer than you 18:21:01 yep I seen it before 18:21:01 It's still a terrible idea. 18:21:04 so "latest" is objectively wrong? 18:21:06 but I forgot what it did 18:21:29 elliott, so what if it was here in '08? I would have opposed it then as well. 18:21:56 sure, but that's assuming i actually care that you oppose. i've already discussed it with oerjan and am implementing the fix we agreed on soon 18:22:00 like when i'm not 90% asleep. 18:22:08 you whine about everything. :p 18:22:09 oh the topic changer 18:22:10 right 18:22:18 Vorpal: *and fungot inspiration 18:22:19 elliott: can you put your call-,with-* hack for scheme-mode? and if so, what does syntax-case buy you over define-macro? 18:22:26 elliott, oh really, mkay 18:22:28 OK, fungot babble inspiration 18:22:29 elliott: do you run emacs in konsole 18:22:36 Vorpal: yes, fizzie was all "i am inadequate ;_; must compensate" 18:22:41 so he brought out all the n-grams. 18:22:53 elliott, what did you do? just random letters? 18:22:55 optbot 18:22:55 Vorpal: it seems so 18:22:59 . 18:23:02 Vorpal: it does exactly what it did then 18:23:07 elliott, I don't remember! 18:23:14 Vorpal: you'll get it in a few pings 18:23:17 prolly 18:23:19 it makes it very obvious sometimes 18:23:23 optbot, random? 18:23:23 Vorpal: oh, i seem to remember now 18:23:26 optbot, random? 18:23:26 Vorpal: 2 ihope: ps 18:23:29 yep pretty 18:23:31 oerjan, what's the agreed fix? 18:23:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/. 18:23:36 Phantom__Hoover: rtflogs 18:23:36 elliott, I think it quotes log 18:23:40 Gregor: rtflogs 18:23:43 Gregor: rtfquitwhining 18:23:45 elliott, maybe not full lines, don't know yet 18:23:45 Vorpal: correct 18:23:50 elliott, shut up, OK? 18:23:59 Phantom__Hoover: mm, no 18:24:05 RTFLogs is not a response to all requests for information. 18:24:07 elliott: I know it's off, that's still yukks :P 18:24:08 Phantom__Hoover: 12 hour timeout after last change by anyone 18:24:17 Phantom__Hoover: it is when you're being irritating about it. 18:24:22 I'm not going to sift through the logs to find everything. 18:24:31 then don't be irritating/obnoxious. 18:24:33 oerjan, ah, OK. I'm fine with that. 18:24:34 -!- Vorpal has set topic: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | + Gregor has changed the topic to: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/. 18:24:40 -!- elliott has set topic: * Vorpal has changed the topic to: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | + Gregor has changed the topic to: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/. 18:24:47 we need a fixed-point topic. 18:24:47 ... 18:24:59 optbot! 18:24:59 elliott, yep, we will easily hit limit 18:24:59 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | F. 18:25:01 elliott, OK, expressing my discontent for your bot is being irritating and obnoxious. 18:25:05 Good to know. 18:25:13 Phantom__Hoover: nope, expressing it in the way you did (an obnoxious way) is 18:25:16 -!- Gregor has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes. 18:25:20 -!- elliott has set topic: * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has chang. 18:25:21 Phantom__Hoover, what do you expect... 18:25:30 Vorpal, you can shut up too. 18:25:37 How did we end up with a different length :P 18:25:39 Phantom__Hoover, come on :P 18:25:43 Phantom__Hoover: Vorpal: plz realise: "I don't like optbot" != "optbot is elliott's latest stupid project and it's retarded and stupid and dumb" 18:25:43 elliott: that's like making printf return an integer so you can do printf("Hello, world!\n") + printf("Bye!\n"); 18:25:53 Phantom__Hoover, I agreed with you about elliott's treatment of you. 18:25:55 latter does not get spoonfed log lines 18:26:02 though I'm neutral on optbot 18:26:02 Vorpal: and JS? 18:26:14 vorpal's constant attempts to agree with everyone who's taking a negative view of me remain unhampered. 18:26:15 elliott, yeah it isn't your latest stupid one 18:26:18 that's true 18:26:25 enjoy ignore 18:26:38 however I do feel both you and Phantom__Hoover should calm down 18:26:55 Vorpal, you are this near to an ignore from me as well. 18:27:28 Phantom__Hoover, I can't see why. I just told you both to calm down... 18:30:02 about the surest way to make people ignore you, i should think 18:30:16 oerjan, hm good point 18:30:28 oerjan, no one likes feeling they are at fault 18:31:05 yeah faults are dangerous, look at japan 18:31:27 oerjan, may I borrow your flyswatter for a moment? 18:31:34 O KAY 18:31:38 * oerjan ducks 18:31:44 wait I forgot the shape. what length is it? 18:31:49 5+3 18:31:59 oerjan, - and #? o 18:32:03 or* = ? 18:32:26 yes, and wat 18:32:36 * Vorpal swats oerjan for that pun-----### 18:32:45 here you can have it back 18:32:50 ouch 18:37:15 what's the command for makin an hg repo directory match the server it was cloned from? 18:37:23 what 18:37:26 rm -rf / 18:37:27 do you mean pulling new changes 18:37:37 hg help # rtfm 18:38:12 rtfm, rm -rf, so close 18:39:28 too many r's not enough t's 18:40:05 -!- Gregor has set topic: λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x)), bitches! | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/. 18:40:28 is that an xkcd quote 18:40:50 ISTR it's from that tattoo, but then again it might not be. 18:41:01 Linux Libertine has unmatched []; discuss. 18:41:37 Huh, it's only in XChat. 18:53:04 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:55:39 -!- pingveno has joined. 18:58:04 oerjan: I certainly hope you weren't referring to the topic ... 18:58:30 * oerjan whistles innocently 18:58:45 i like how nobody noticed Deewiant even said anything 18:58:47 like a ninja. 18:59:45 elliott, I noticed, but I ignored him because I was otherwise engaged. 19:00:02 Phantom__Hoover: You're getting married? Congratulations 19:00:04 *Congratulations! 19:00:16 elliott, guess what the ring will be made of? 19:00:29 Phantom__Hoover: Wait, wait, let me guess. Gold. 19:00:36 Or wait 19:00:37 LEAD?? 19:00:41 DIRT???? 19:00:45 wolfram, obviously. 19:00:47 OBSIDIAN???? 19:00:59 oerjan: it would have a drastic ego containment field collapse 19:01:00 There should be a hipster glasses smiley. 19:01:03 *undergo a 19:01:12 Phantom__Hoover: I propose :kanye: 19:01:20 Hmm, OK. 19:01:23 Except metal. 19:01:29 What. 19:01:33 I'm assuming you mean shutter shades. 19:01:43 Mercury under glass. 19:01:43 Best ring ever. 19:01:47 Otherwise :iiam: 19:03:27 i like how nobody noticed Deewiant even said anything <-- um am i being trolled 19:03:30 elliott, I mean a metal hipster because that is what I am. 19:03:33 oerjan: nope 19:03:43 Phantom__Hoover: THERE IS NO SUCH THING 19:03:48 because afaict Deewiant hasn't spoken recently 19:03:54 oerjan: look closer 19:03:58 elliott, IRIDIUM IS WAY TOO MAINSTREAM 19:04:02 oh 19:04:03 like 19:04:04 actual metal 19:04:05 not as in 19:04:06 \m/ 19:04:08 metal metal 19:04:10 xD 19:04:19 It is a pune or play on words. 19:04:30 oerjan: FOUND IT YET 19:04:42 elliott: unless you mean that optbot! which i don't see why should need noticing... 19:04:43 oerjan: sp0 will not work on my comp 19:04:48 oerjan: it was a speak! 19:05:16 elliott: well in that case i did notice. 19:11:44 What's more dangerous than glass to put mercury in in a ring ... 19:11:44 (But equally transparent) 19:12:06 Gregor: Air 19:12:16 elliott: Good luck making that maintain the shape of a ring. 19:12:23 Gregor: You never said it had to last long 19:12:23 ice. 19:12:32 Gregor: It'll last about as long as Phantom__Hoover's marriage 19:13:39 What's more dangerous than glass to put mercury in in a ring BUT IS ALSO TRANSPARENT, SOLID AND STABLE AT ROOM TEMPERATURE 19:13:49 the marriage is doomed anyway if they don't have the right chemistry 19:14:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:14:54 sheesh, all these restrictions 19:16:13 Maybe instead I'll go with semitransparent and use a mesh in which the pores are slightly smaller than mercury's natural drop size :P 19:16:28 http://www.moral-politics.com/Temp/Pol_06449af7e2ec4ac5af505245273c9a61.png DO I WIN 19:16:37 I'm pretty sure getting into one of the corners is how you win 19:21:14 Gregor: It'll last about as long as Phantom__Hoover's marriage 19:21:31 Sure, since I plan to go through with the osmium ring plan with a wealthy heiress. 19:21:42 Phantom__Hoover: It's not my fault you're planning to marry an extremely unstable isotope. 19:21:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 19:22:31 elliott: wtf does that even mean 19:22:52 Gregor: What 19:22:54 The graph thing? 19:22:59 Yeah 19:23:10 I'm likin' my mesh idea, but I think the drop size for mercury is quite small :P 19:23:13 Gregor: Result of taking the silly test at http://www.moral-politics.com/. 19:23:26 Apparently I fall somewhere between social democratism and activism. 19:23:32 Well, more in "activism". 19:23:38 Apparently activism is A FORM OF MILD SOCIALISM. 19:24:01 It's a bullshit test and some of the answers have really biased wording 19:24:01 but 19:24:09 [[Of the 666,816 respondents (11,708 on Facebook): 19:24:09 4% are close to you. 19:24:09 81% are more conservative. 19:24:09 1% are more liberal. 19:24:09 1% are more socialist. 19:24:10 7% are more authoritarian.]] 19:24:12 PRETTY SURE THAT MEANS I WIN 19:24:24 (7% are more authoritarian? wtf i never said anything authoritarian...) 19:24:34 * elliott redoes the political compass test while he's at it. 19:25:23 Gleh, forgot how badly-worded some of the questions on this are, too. 19:25:26 "People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality." 19:25:36 I have no idea whether this is saying "In practice, ..." or "Inherently, ...". 19:26:49 I like the implication that noöne thinks women are better than men. 19:26:52 SEXISM IS ONE-WAY 19:27:27 What I hate about these tests is the questions that are basically trying to funnel you into one of two categories and are really obvious about it 19:27:36 e.g. "Controlling inflation is more important than controlling unemployment." 19:28:24 * Phantom__Hoover wonders which political system would be best for an online sandbox economy thing á la EVE. 19:28:46 I'd like to see a game economy ENTIRELY based around the fact that you can play the game with enough money. 19:28:58 Like you can with EVE, except the servers being the Fort Knox. 19:29:19 "Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care ." ;; you can't just ask me this and not also ask me if I support public healthcare, ffs 19:29:35 Either you want to outlaw Bupa, or you want to make everyone die on the streets! 19:29:43 That is... bleurghl. 19:29:58 I don't think two of those corners are accessible. 19:30:08 This is the political compass, btw. 19:30:09 Not the moral thing. 19:30:19 Amusingly I think I register as more conservative/authoritarian than I really am on these because of bad questions... 19:30:39 seriously though 19:30:40 "People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality." 19:30:43 HOW DO I EVEN DISAGREE/AGREE TO THAT 19:30:48 IS IT WHAT I WANT TO BE TRUE, IS IT WHAT I THINK IS TRUE IN PRACTICE 19:30:49 FFFFF 19:31:45 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:31:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 19:31:45 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:34:33 -!- augur has joined. 19:34:54 everyone's dissing on elliott again, i'll jump the bandwagon: elliott: optbot's nick has a typo 19:34:55 oklopol: and well there are lots of process supervision stuff built in. Oh and hot code reloading. Oh and support for distributed nodes and what not. Not features of your typical "scripting" language. 19:34:59 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 19:35:05 oklopol: nah Phantom__Hoover was totally a bro 19:35:13 Vorpal was just totally a Vorpal 19:35:18 live goes on, broly. 19:35:23 oklopol: but er waht's the typo 19:35:29 it should be otpbot 19:35:31 it stands for oerjan's punnes terribales 19:35:37 it's french you uncultured fuck 19:35:45 oh lol excuse me :( 19:35:48 there's even a fucking ' thing on top of one of them 19:35:48 sheesh 19:36:55 today i said "jeau deux le shambray de la seminar" to a french guy, and he didn't get me 19:36:55 Phantom__Hoover: WHAT WAS YOUR SCORE 19:37:01 oklopol: uts jk 19:37:05 even though chambre is totally french 19:37:25 elliott, I gave up because my attention span is negative. 19:37:33 "jeau deux" may have been wrong though 19:37:33 Phantom__Hoover: IT'S LIKE FIVE QUESTIONS 19:38:49 "A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system." 19:38:54 I THINK THATS THE best question ever 19:38:59 i just wanna see osmeone say "strong algryy" 19:39:22 Osmeone, Osmium's sister. 19:40:08 http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-5.38&soc=-7.64 19:40:11 YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 19:40:17 Still not far left enough 19:40:43 Is this the sane kind of libertarian or the nutjob kind? 19:40:55 Phantom__Hoover: http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif 19:41:00 http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/bothaxes.gif 19:41:05 Those should explain. The first one moreso. 19:41:12 I love how Thatcher is more extreme than Hitler. 19:41:17 Kinda. 19:41:41 Well, Hitler said he was a socialist. 19:42:06 that test is too hard 19:42:24 oklopol: the moral or political 19:42:35 if the political, try the moral one it's supra-eesy http://www.moral-politics.com/ 19:42:38 and crap 19:43:49 "We should reduce the causes of crime" vs. "we should eliminate the causes of crime". 19:44:02 SHOULD WE ELIMINATE CRIME OR REDUCE IT 19:44:40 Reduce it definitely! 19:44:44 I like crime. 19:44:45 Gives me the warm fuzzies. 19:45:05 I like crime in moderation just as much as the next man. 19:45:11 apparently i'm a socialist 19:45:18 interesting, since i'm not 19:45:40 oklopol: give pic link 19:45:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:45:55 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:47:26 i don't know how, but -3 on moral order, 1.5 on moral rules 19:47:28 whatever that means 19:47:49 in any case i'm not sure i agree with all my answers, i might answer differently at different times 19:47:49 oklopol: right lcick the graph thing 19:47:50 to the right 19:47:53 choose copy pic location 19:47:54 paste in here 19:48:51 doesn't work that way 19:49:24 oklopol: give us the ilnk to the page with it on then 19:50:15 yeah i'll send you the POST data through an irc message 19:50:26 haha oklopol just got a really weakling version of my results 19:50:27 anyway i already lost it 19:50:28 like a fag fag 19:50:57 elliott: Still using my handwriting as a system font? 19:51:00 my political stance is mostly that finland is perfect, let's just keep it this way 19:51:16 Gregor: no :( but i regret not doing so 19:51:23 oklopol: including the military service thing? :D 19:51:33 oh well some disagreements, tru 19:51:45 Gregor, what's your handwriting like? 19:51:51 Phantom__Hoover: amazing 19:51:53 the best,even 19:51:56 *best, even 19:51:57 i don't get why a country would need an army 19:52:03 Want pics. 19:52:20 http://codu.org/gregor_handwriting.ttf 19:52:29 Phantom__Hoover: set as system font 19:52:31 set as default web page font 19:52:32 set as irc font 19:52:35 set as window title font 19:52:36 gawp in amazing 19:52:56 Gregor, wow, that actually makes my handwriting look controlled. 19:53:12 Gregor: use as system 19:53:13 the colons 19:53:17 are the best part 19:53:32 Gregor: do you want me to make my own handwriting font for you to use in return, your computer will look like a three year old wrote it 19:53:37 (When I write long passages the words kind of merge into one big mass of slanty lines. 19:53:43 *) 19:53:49 elliott: And my font DOESN'T look like a three-year-old wrote it? 19:54:10 Gregor: you have clearly never seen MY handwriting. 19:54:14 Does anyone want MY handwriting? 19:54:19 yes 19:54:22 gimmegimme 19:54:40 Gregor: Recently it evolved from "Cool, the lowercase letters take up THE ENTIRE LINE of regular lined paper" to "now I just write the upwards slanting lines, and literally just swiggle the rest" 19:54:40 plus dots for the is 19:54:51 with that and the first/last letters i'm sure everyone can interpret my words 19:55:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:55:30 So how do you fontify your handwriting? 19:55:45 Phantom__Hoover: same way Gregor did it 19:55:48 ...with murder 19:55:58 Gregor, how did you fontify your handwriting? 19:56:02 murder is illegal 19:56:19 oklopol: indeed. 19:56:25 such is the sadness 19:56:27 oklopol, wow, Finland is weird. 19:56:27 such is the tragedy 19:56:32 xD 19:56:36 yourfonts.com 19:56:38 Phantom__Hoover: ? army? 19:56:50 No, murder is *illegal*. 19:56:58 ah that thing 19:57:02 Gregor: You realise that not doing it by hand == -19872938791237123 nerd points 19:57:06 we like teh life see 19:57:14 I mean, it's frowned on over here, but I can't imagine anyone *legislating* it. 19:57:22 Gregor: I'd need to do all the OpenType stuff to get my insane ligatures (EVERYTHING IS SWIGGLES) 19:57:24 elliott: You realize that making a font ... of handwriting ... by hand makes no sense at all? 19:57:42 Gregor: WHAT DO YOU THINK WE DID BEFORE YOURFONTS 19:57:48 Gregor: I mean as in manually vectorising etc. :P 19:57:57 Make fonts that were not an accurate conversion of handwriting. 19:58:17 Yeah, making a font of my handwriting would lose the melting. 19:58:28 I always print :P 19:58:45 Phantom__Hoover: Not with OpenType! 19:58:51 It'll just take twenty years to get every ligature down properly. 19:59:06 (The best part is when I scribble stuff out /with nearly the exact same density and angle as my normal writing/.) 19:59:37 have i mentioned that 19:59:37 It also goes halfway down the next line, which doesn't stop me writing on it. 19:59:40 sometimes i don't even bother with spaces 19:59:43 you basically get like 19:59:46 2*number of words letters 19:59:53 in the sentence 19:59:55 joined by a bunch of swiggles 19:59:59 it's quite beautiful 20:00:44 are you guys retarded? 20:01:01 oklopol: yes, why? 20:01:08 well no reason i guess 20:01:17 the purpose of handwriting isn't to be readable or useful imo 20:01:31 oklopol: YOU LIVE IN A HOLE 20:01:38 i live in a hole? 20:01:54 A hole at bedrock! Factually correct. 20:02:01 idgi 20:02:10 Well you do in Minecraft, dunno what Gregor's on about 20:02:22 Your walls aren't flat btw, did someone mine some ore from them or did you decide that flat walls are boring 20:02:27 Slight small holes 20:02:27 I used to write algebra on one line unless it was literally impossible to make my pen write the symbols. 20:02:50 Phantom__Hoover: biros have that much more leeway in stuffing squiggles into a line 20:03:50 algebra <3 20:04:01 Yes, it is one of their advantages 20:04:05 Another is not leaking. 20:04:19 Phantom__Hoover: dunno, leaking can be useful for blotting off incorrect reasoning 20:04:25 as long as the rest of the proof looks ok 20:04:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:04:42 elliott, sure, but then I try to clean it with my fingers. 20:05:08 Everyone: Put the Y combinator in various languages in the topic, each suffixed with ", bitches!" 20:05:22 And I end up looking like the Hulk if he'd been an early-20th century X-ray operator. 20:05:38 Gregor: Which? 20:05:40 Strict? Lazy? 20:05:45 (assume the language can do both) 20:06:13 I don't think it really matters for something this stupid :P 20:06:20 -!- elliott has set topic: λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x)), bitches! | (\f -> let x = f x in x), bitches! | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/. 20:06:33 that's not actually the y combinator. 20:06:37 but it's a fixed-point combinator. 20:06:42 the y combinator itself requires some newtype wrapping. 20:06:43 knowing the y combinator is a sign of inteligence, Gregor. 20:07:02 Eh, I guess we could tolerate any fixed-point combinator :P 20:07:06 oklopol: ... fascinating? 20:07:25 " I don't think it really matters for something this stupid :P" 20:07:38 oklopol: I meant something as stupid as putting it in the topic. 20:07:50 i forget how to do it in underload, or if i ever got it done 20:08:34 \f. (\x. f (\y. x x y)) (\x. f (\y. x x y)) 20:08:37 well you know if people of inferior intelligecy come here then they'll understand right away that we're better than them so how's that stupid we don't have to listen to their whining. 20:09:00 hmm 20:09:14 elliott: erm, isn't i t":^"? 20:09:16 *it 20:09:16 In that case ... 20:09:21 oklopol: no, that's mockingbird 20:09:24 f -> f(f) 20:09:35 oh right y 20:09:50 i see how to do it but 20:09:54 too lazy so i'll use the abstraction elimination rules 20:10:04 λalchemy.(λmoonspirit.alchemy (moonspirit moonspirit)) (λastralplane.alchemy (astralplane astralplane)) 20:10:12 Gregor, dammit, you beat me to it. 20:10:20 what 20:10:24 Gregor: ah, that way they REALLY understand our greatness 20:10:28 xD 20:10:33 because we're speaking their language, but better 20:11:49 (((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^) 20:11:51 i think that might be it 20:12:00 ^ul ()(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^ 20:12:01 ...out of time! 20:12:02 ^ul ()(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^S 20:12:02 ...out of time! 20:12:07 ^ul (!())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^S 20:12:08 ...out of time! 20:12:09 OK 20:12:11 MAYBE NOT 20:12:49 i don't get what y should even do in ul 20:13:01 well it's applicative y 20:13:12 -!- Behold has joined. 20:13:17 :t \f -> (\x -> f (\y -> x x y)) (\x -> f (\y -> x x y)) 20:13:18 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> t1 -> t2 20:13:18 Probable cause: `x' is applied to too many arguments 20:13:18 In the expression: x x y 20:13:21 fff 20:13:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:13:35 oklopol: it's ∀a.∀b.((a→b)→(a→b))→(a→b). 20:13:37 thanks wikipedia. 20:13:49 let rec fix f x = f (fix f) x (* note the extra x *) 20:13:49 20:13:49 let factabs fact = function (* factabs now has extra level of lambda abstraction *) 20:13:49 0 -> 1 20:13:49 | x -> x * fact (x-1) 20:13:50 20:13:52 what do i do if apt-get runs out of disk in the middle of an install? would it break my packages to just kill it? 20:13:52 let _ = (fix factabs) 5 (* evaluates to "120" *) 20:13:54 --jewpedia 20:14:05 quintopia: you can probably fit it with dpkg --reconfigure. 20:14:06 quintopia: it won't break it in an unfixable way 20:14:10 so yeah 20:14:11 kk 20:14:16 oh, hi ais523 20:14:23 it can leave the packages temporarily broken until dependencies and configurations are fixed, though 20:14:24 quintopia: What they said :P 20:14:26 ais523: can't seem to work out applicative-order Y in underload 20:14:31 thought i had it but i made a mistaek 20:14:39 \f. (\x. f (\y. x x y)) (\x. f (\y. x x y)) ;; this 'un 20:14:39 I once had to shut my computer off in the middle of a distro upgrade 20:14:50 and actually recovered from that, although I did have to use the command prompt to do so 20:14:55 because the GUI wasn't working 20:15:03 "command prompt" 20:15:06 WINDOWS USER DETECTED 20:15:15 SHUN 20:15:22 elliott: I probably used Windows for longer than I've used Linux 20:15:29 SHUUUUUUUUUUUUUN 20:15:31 ais523: DISOWN'D 20:15:42 remember that I'm older than you 20:15:47 Linux hadn't really caught on when I was a child 20:15:54 ais523: yeah well, when i'm older than you 20:16:00 i'm gonna learn all the linuxes. 20:16:06 ^ul (()~a~*)^S 20:16:06 ...out of stack! 20:16:11 ^ul (hamper)(()~a~*)^S 20:16:11 (hamper) 20:16:13 ^ul (hamper)((S)~a~*)^S 20:16:13 (hamper)S 20:16:15 ^ul (hamper)((S)~a~*)^^ 20:16:15 hamper 20:16:20 what, ais523 has used windows? lol what a noob 20:16:37 ^ul (( { \x. f (\y. x x y) } )~a~*) 20:17:00 ais523: how do i unlock the dpkg directory so i can run it again? 20:17:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:17:32 http://kawagner.blogspot.com/2007/02/why-monads-are-evil.html 20:17:37 Is this person some kind of moron? 20:17:45 "It can hurt readability: A concrete monad is choosen by the return type of a function. For example a simple 'x <- get' can switch the rest of the do-block into 'state-monad'-land." 20:17:46 quintopia: there's a lockfile somewhere, I'm not sure where offhand though 20:17:51 oklopol: I've even used DOS 20:17:55 from before Windows caught on 20:17:58 ^ul (hello!)(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^S 20:17:58 (hello!)(~:^~^)~a~*~^ 20:18:05 ^ul (hello!)(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^^S 20:18:05 ...out of stack! 20:18:09 ^ul (())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^S 20:18:09 (())(~:^~^)~a~*~^ 20:18:12 If I understand correctly, that shouldn't be properly typed in any monad..ic thingy that isn't State 20:18:13 ^ul (())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^^S 20:18:14 ...out of stack! 20:18:16 ^ul (())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)S 20:18:16 ((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~* 20:18:19 ^ul ((a))(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)S 20:18:20 ((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~* 20:18:23 ^ul ((abc))(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)S 20:18:24 ((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~* 20:18:27 hm. 20:18:30 that doesn't seem right at all! 20:18:32 oh 20:18:35 ^ul ((abc))(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^S 20:18:36 ((abc))(~:^~^)~a~*~^ 20:18:38 ^ul ((abc))(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^^S 20:18:38 ...out of stack! 20:18:46 (((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^) 20:18:59 so 20:19:01 exactly what i came up with :/ 20:19:36 ais523: i found the file. how to unlock it? (no process is using it) 20:19:47 is it empty? if so, just delete it 20:20:30 ^ul ()(!())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^ 20:20:30 ...out of time! 20:20:32 gah 20:20:37 !underload ()(!())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^S 20:20:46 Gregor: egobot 20:20:50 elliott: I nose. 20:21:04 ais523: just wait 'til relief is done! 20:21:08 I honestly have no friggin' clue why it's had such trouble remaining connected recently. 20:21:19 Waitwtf, it IS connected. 20:21:31 It's just not in #esoteric. 20:21:48 -!- HackEgo has joined. 20:21:57 that's not egobot 20:22:07 ORLYTHANKS 20:22:31 it's close to being egobot 20:22:39 don't they both multibot? 20:22:42 `run ghc --version 20:23:05 Yeah 20:23:26 OK, wtf, once again, EgoBot is connected but didn't join. 20:23:37 MULTIBOT SO STABLE 20:23:41 Maybe I should try to learn category theory 20:23:53 Sgeo: you should 20:23:54 category theory <3 20:23:58 not fully, but enough to understand the basics 20:24:13 Where should I start? Is Wikipedia readable on this subject? 20:24:18 (mention category theory anywhere, and all the computer scientists in the audience immediately start gushing) 20:24:25 yeah even my stupid friend can do category theory ;D 20:24:29 and I'm not sure; I haven't looked at the Wikipedia article 20:24:36 ais523: unless they're rabid haskell haters 20:24:45 oh, the connection with Haskell I never really get at all 20:24:48 arguably they don't count as computer scientists :> 20:24:55 -!- EgoBot has joined. 20:24:57 I can't connect Haskell concepts to the mathematical concepts they're meant to be based on 20:25:09 Monoid is easy :P 20:25:12 !underload ()(!())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^S 20:25:13 LOL what a noob. i can't either, even though oerjan explained it once 20:25:15 and nor can most other computer scientists, by the look of it 20:25:36 i think it just comes from expecting something deeper than it is. 20:25:45 WTF TRAC IS ONCE AGAIN PEGGED AT 99% CPU 20:25:45 WHY TRAC WHY 20:25:48 trac: it is a pile of garbage. 20:25:53 elliott: you get the connection? 20:25:58 yeah even my stupid friend can do category theory ;D 20:26:00 oklopol: in a vague ay 20:26:01 way 20:26:05 Gregor: MediaWiki does that too 20:26:06 oklopol: close enough anyway ;D 20:26:10 Gregor: it's because of you 20:26:11 Should I subject it to the ultimate stupid test? 20:26:13 what's the definition of a category? 20:26:13 it knows it's on your server 20:26:17 it's so disappointed. 20:26:19 Phantom__Hoover: wut 20:26:25 elliott, APT Guy. 20:26:38 asking elliott i mean 20:26:40 oklopol: ffff a category is a bunch of objects and morphisms and fff dude 20:26:43 it's been like 30 hours since i slept 20:26:43 :D 20:26:46 shut up 20:26:50 ob 20:26:52 there's definitely ob in there 20:26:56 ob everywhere in that bitch 20:27:08 It's, like, drawings. 20:27:11 With arrows. 20:27:12 yes. 20:27:15 drawings with arrows. 20:27:17 oklopol: satisfied 20:27:17 well it's just a multi graph with a composition operator 20:27:19 which is kinda big 20:27:23 *multigraph 20:27:43 oklopol, i.e. drawings with arrows. 20:28:28 that's a nice description, but i'm not sure it's a great definition 20:28:53 oklopol: a category is somethign wit ha lot of pages in it 20:29:12 No output. 20:30:13 Gregor: SO SLOW 20:30:50 elliott: It's always slow on first load. 20:30:51 `echo hi 20:30:53 hi 20:31:00 Gregor: egobot is still going. 20:31:07 admittedly it is likely inflooping 20:31:08 elliott: It's always slow on first load. 20:32:07 Phantom__Hoover: What day is it kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen? 20:32:32 32 o'clock in the aftertea. 20:33:05 -!- augur has joined. 20:33:56 dd if=/dev/zero of=bigfile bs=1M count=10 conv=fdatasync # omfg this has been running for over a minute *sobs* 20:34:16 Gregor: :D 20:34:23 Gregor: So prgmr, quite shitty eh 20:34:33 Apparently they've decided to be, yes. 20:35:21 This is kind of an open-ended question to whoever wants to respond, I'm trying to figure out the best way to manage this situation I'm in: 20:35:21 explosives 20:35:26 Gregor: contact them and get SO MANY REFUNDS 20:35:29 wtf, is this some kind of joke, it's still running. 20:35:29 I'M TRYING TO WRITE A 10M FILE OF ZEROS 20:35:29 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 171.363 s, 61.2 kB/s 20:35:38 X-D 20:35:46 That's slower than my internet connection at the worst of times. 20:35:52 By far. 20:36:07 Gregor: They've migrated to Cloud(TM)-based storage! 20:36:11 All the storage is in Zimbabwe now. 20:36:17 *Somalia 20:36:33 Gregor: no, they just have all the libraries 20:36:38 they're loaded every single time a process is spawned 20:36:41 by downloading from .so 20:39:13 X-D 20:39:52 Gregor: it's the Future 20:39:58 Gregor: gnu are bidding on libc.so themselves 20:40:03 Gregor: as are microsoft 20:41:06 now I wonder if libc.so actually exists 20:41:11 * ais523 whoises 20:41:26 "This TLD has no whois server." 20:41:30 short and to the point 20:41:37 ais523: .so is new 20:41:40 Gregor is in the auction for it 20:41:47 ais523: it's a closed auction, he signed up for libc.so 20:41:49 but so did other people 20:41:51 so it's gone to auction 20:41:59 seriously? 20:42:02 yep 20:42:09 ais523: .so = Somalia, they've only recently had something that could call itself enough of a government to get their tld activated :) 20:42:32 I guessed = Somalia 20:43:08 from this we can conclude that the soviet union still exists 20:44:55 Thirteen people. 20:45:07 ais523: Taking donations to help me buy it! :P 20:45:17 what sort of auction is it? 20:45:20 ais523: The benefit of donating is a snazzy @libc.so email address! 20:45:33 ais523: Closed, anonymous, proxy bidding allowed. 20:45:44 do you know each other's bids? 20:45:44 non-secret 20:45:57 "non-secret" 20:46:19 I said that before you posted your reply, or at least before it arrived at my client 20:46:27 Yeah, I'm lagged all to hell X_X 20:46:56 Gregor: What's the current bid, or has it not started yet :P 20:47:01 Mind you, the auction hasn't opened yet, I'm trying to raise capital before it does. 20:47:10 also, holy crap, this thing is gonna make somalia so much money :D 20:47:33 elliott: Don't say that, I want it to sell for an amount I can buy it for X-P 20:47:40 I mean the domain shit in general 20:47:40 the sale of .tv gave a fortune to each Tuvaluan citizen 20:47:47 Gregor: you realise that one corporate bidder means you're screwed? 20:47:51 elliott: Yup. 20:48:07 elliott: My only prayer there is the fact that it really has no corporate value. 20:48:13 ais523: I believe .tk made a lot of money/infrastructure for Tokelau too, but that was .tk advertising, so maybe exaggerating 20:48:22 Gregor: We live in Web 2.0. 20:48:29 elliott: And? It still has no corporate value. 20:48:31 I've never even heard of Tokelau 20:48:35 Gregor: It has marketing value. 20:48:41 elliott: No, it doesn't. 20:48:54 ais523: they're the island that decided that they really didn't need a cctld, so it's ok if a company gave them away for free 20:48:54 Wait, are we referring to libc.so or .so in general? :P 20:48:57 Gregor: libc.so 20:49:03 Yeah, it has zero marketing value. 20:49:03 Gregor: It has marketing value IN THE MINDS OF IDIOTIC IDIOTS. 20:49:11 Gregor: This is where you should assume the worst in people. 20:49:31 well, hope those idiotic idiots don't find it until later 20:49:36 then you can sell it to them for a fortune 20:49:47 why would yo uever sell that! 20:49:48 it has nerd cred 20:49:53 it tells everyone 20:49:54 for a fortune, obviously 20:49:56 If I get it, I wouldn't sell it for less than six digits :P 20:49:59 i like dynamic libraries, because i'm lame 20:50:03 then you can buy it back again after their idiotic company collapses 20:50:09 Gregor: I'll give you $99,999 20:50:27 elliott: TOO FEW DIGITS and also I didn't say I'd sell it for ANY six-digit value. 20:50:39 Also I don't own it. 20:50:39 Gregor: Too few digits on purpose :P 20:50:46 I did not believe and do not believe that you value it more than $99,999 20:50:47 But anyway, I honestly think I have a so-so chance of getting it at this point. 20:50:58 Well, you know, optimism is good for you. 20:51:02 One could even say.... .so.so. 20:51:08 Even hopeless, naive optimisim.jf 20:51:10 kickban Phantom__Hoover / 20:51:24 -!- marian_30 has joined. 20:51:38 Gregor: it depends on if everyone else is also there just on the offchance 20:52:01 elliott: No, seriously, it's not naive at all. We're talking about a domain name that has nerd cred but absolutely no commercial value, with thirteen bidders in a closed auction, and with only people who happened to notice its availability in a brief window. 20:52:01 marian_30, just to make sure, we aren't neopagans. 20:52:12 In other words, we're talking about the intersection of domain name nerds and Unix nerds. 20:52:20 marian_30: We're NEONEOpagans. 20:52:31 Phantom__Hoover: that's a strange statement to make to someone who hasn't even spoken yet 20:52:32 Gregor: I bet SCO are bidding 20:52:37 elliott: Dude, you're still at neoneo? I've evolved to neoneoneo. 20:52:45 elliott: But WHY? 20:52:48 I'm at neo^\omega pagans of the iag neo om 20:52:48 ais523, well, after last time... 20:52:49 ek 20:52:53 I think someone bid $8 or some similarly small amount for all SCO's assets 20:52:54 Phantom__Hoover: YOU RUIN OUR FUNSTERS 20:53:15 10:41:29 I agree that there's no chance of it taking over the world 20:53:15 10:41:46 I think there's a marginal chance it'll lead to Wolfram being booted from the internet, but for unrelated reasons 20:53:16 10:41:53 ais523: huh? 20:53:16 10:42:11 you'll see later on, if they still have the feature I'm thinking of 20:53:20 ais523: what was that feature? (context: W|A) 20:53:36 oh, portscanning arbitrary sites that were entered into its = box 20:53:44 ais523: that's amazing 20:53:59 Honestly, think about it, what benefit does the domain name libc.so confer to e.g. SCO? Or even a legitimate company? Nobody's going to type libc.so into their web browser and go "WOW I SHOULD BUY THIS UNIX LOL" 20:54:15 Gregor: MARKETING IS NOT BASED ON THE PRINCIPELS OF LOGIC AND SEN 20:54:16 se 20:54:19 -!- marian_30 has left (?). 20:54:27 CLEARLY A NEOPAGAN 20:54:35 elliott: But it IS based on money, and nobody's going to sink money into a completely valueless proposition! 20:54:44 Gregor: Apart from IDIOTS. 20:54:59 Gregor: And who are the kind of people who would bid on an auction for libc.so? 20:54:59 IDIOTS 20:55:10 The intersection of domain name nerds and Unix nerds. 20:55:19 Which is to say, nerds. 20:55:21 Which is to say, people who either have little or a LOT of money :P 20:55:34 Gregor: YOU KEEP IGNORING THE _IDIOTS_ 20:55:39 I assume you're in the former category. 20:55:48 elliott: Idiots don't know what libc.so is! 20:55:52 I don't think Gregor has a little amount of money :P 20:56:09 elliott: Idiots don't know what libc.so is! 20:56:12 YOU WANNA BET 20:56:19 Case in point: APT Guy. 20:56:40 OK, whotf is "APT Guy" 20:57:15 Gregor: He is known only as APT GUY 20:57:23 THE MEANING OF HIS CRYPTIC NAME IS UNKNOWN 20:57:36 He has a name but it's trivially Googleable and he goes to the same school as me, so... 20:58:09 Gahh, I wish I could have a machine where the whole Linux audio/video stack was NOT horribly out-of-sync. 20:58:23 How does PulseAudio even MANAGE to be so TERRIBLE? 21:01:12 Gregor, APT Guy is a guy at my school who is basically a script kiddie who convinced the Ubuntu guys to let him have fairly high-level APT access. 21:01:19 God only knows how. 21:01:46 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:02:02 I still don't know wtf pat access is 21:02:07 or pta access 21:02:09 ooaejoiwroijroj a,p,tpo 21:02:16 ````````1234567 21:02:17 No output. 21:02:24 i really hate keyboards 21:02:33 elliott, I think it means he can apply other people's patches. 21:02:43 Also his own patches very occasionally. 21:02:46 BACKDOOR TIEM 21:03:47 YES 21:03:52 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:03:55 Except someone might notice. 21:04:17 He's also a Pythonista, but I wasn't able to use him to save cpressey. 21:05:30 * Phantom__Hoover sobs quietly 21:05:38 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 21:06:31 Do you know the Society of Creative Anachronism? I know of one of their games. 21:07:13 do tell 21:08:06 A game was made for them, called Ludus Equitum. It can be played with a normal chess set and some dice. 21:08:14 Zwaarddijk, about cpressey or...? 21:08:29 Phantom_Hoover: unignoe zzo38 hesz fun 21:08:39 zs howsa now replacded 's 21:08:41 sz 21:08:43 thatis 21:08:46 Ah. 21:08:51 Or about yesserpc? 21:08:52 whatsz the prblem with that i ask!! 21:09:21 I mean the SoCA game zzo knew of 21:09:25 ludus equitum 21:10:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:10:29 Zwaarddijk: You roll the dice 2d6 and the number that comes up tells you what kind of pieces you are allowed to move. You can make up to 2 moves in one turn. Win by capturing opponent's king. 21:11:41 ok 21:11:52 iirc chess originally had some rule like that? 21:11:57 at least in european varieties? 21:12:10 indeed 21:12:15 R=King, Q=Queen, L=Laurel, P=Pelican, E=Knight, M=Fighter, A=Squire. (Use the rook for P, bishop for L, pawn for M.) In this notation, FEN setup is "1eerqlp1/1mmmmmm1/8/8/8/8/1MMMMMM1/1PLQREE1". 21:12:31 Zwaarddijk: Some old chess game did have dice. This is a bit different though. 21:12:57 zzo38: so it has fairy chess pieces too? 21:13:35 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:13:43 it'd be interesting to make something more go-like with dice 21:14:29 well, like, only one kind of piece, but such that the wrong number of stones n the board can turn out fatal if you have certain structures 21:14:37 and the wrong number comes up on the dice 21:14:45 but with another number can turn out v. good 21:15:25 that would be hard to manage, I think, but probably interesting if it could be managed 21:15:52 perhaps go where you roll a d6, your new stone has to be next to (the result - 1) other stones, color doesn't matter 21:16:16 hm 21:16:17 wtf 21:16:22 i just copied somethign to the licpboard 21:16:27 tbabbed over to my browser 21:16:30 almost fell asleep half way 21:16:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:16:34 came backt o my senses 21:16:36 http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li0vnjLRLg1qh25w2o1_500.jpg 21:16:38 and thought me going to google something was a dream 21:16:40 Most awesome cat ever/ 21:16:43 i am extremely tired... 21:17:12 elliott: for what reason are you awake? 21:17:19 The Q and L move one space diagonal, P one space orthogonal, M like the pawn in chess but no double step, R like king in chess (but is permitted to be in check), A the same. M promotes only to A. The numbers on dice you can move: 1=RQ 2=RQ 3=PL 4=M 5=EA 6=EA. 21:17:20 inability to sleep? being busy? 21:17:23 perversity? 21:17:32 ais523: according to stephen wolfram, it is 9 am in 12 hours 21:17:37 as such, I will be going to bed within the hour 21:17:51 in the anticipation that I will sleep for approximately that time, and wake up at a sane time 21:17:57 ais523,Zwaarddijk: Yes that is an idea about Go with dice. 21:18:00 12's a bit low, I think 21:18:07 my record's 23 21:18:16 ais523: 14 is my record, and only once 21:18:22 12 is what I get in cases of extreme sleep deprivation 21:18:33 the 23 was pretty extreme for me 21:18:34 11 in moderate sleep deprivation 21:18:35 10 normally 21:18:40 14 was horrible 21:18:41 I felt dead 21:19:06 after two weeks of extremely dutiful living, I slept 23 hours one day 21:19:10 and 17 hours the next 21:19:50 what do you mean by "dutiful" in this context? 21:20:03 fulfilling duties to various associations 21:20:13 ah, OK 21:20:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:20:35 I think that was a little lost-in-translation without the clarification 21:20:37 viz. the association of comp.sci students at åbo akademi, and the student orchestra 21:20:50 yes, it was not meant to be losslessly translated 21:21:13 it was in fact an expression that wouldn't've worked in Swedish. point was: doing what you're supposed to isn't always smart 21:21:48 normally I try to reduce the number of obligations I have in such cases 21:22:07 see, I am not cut out to be a leader. 21:22:21 and i was essentially the chairman of the orchestra 21:22:24 so I didn't delegate anything 21:22:27 i did everything myself 21:22:38 I have written a ZRF implementation of this SCA game. http://www.chessvariants.org/membergraphics/MZludusequitum/LudusEquitum.zrf (Zillions is not particularly good software, but way better than nothing.) 21:22:38 ouch 21:23:17 -!- augur has joined. 21:23:24 for our big annual concerto 21:24:00 -!- cheater- has joined. 21:24:03 What music do you play in that orchestra? 21:24:22 so essentially, my days during two weeks consisted of: waking up, getting a cup of coffee, running errands, getting cups of coffee in between errands, eating something, going to comp.sci.association ball-week events, coming home in the middle of the night, ... 21:24:40 ouch 21:25:02 big band jazz, some funk, some rockabilly, some modern stuff - the annual concerto usually has some theme like "80s music" or "latin american stuff" or "sweden" or "secret agents" 21:26:05 I play the jazz guitar - but I've not played there for about a year. also, my musical interests have veered into microtonality a bit too far to be compatible with any orchestra 21:26:10 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:26:17 in that most instruments can't play it 21:26:28 and the ones that can, need people so insanely skilled to play them that it's not worth it? 21:26:29 ais523: according to stephen wolfram, it is 9 am in 12 hours 21:26:36 You go to school, yes? 21:26:52 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: really need to sleep). 21:26:58 Dammit. 21:27:27 ais523: nah, trombones, trumpets and fretless string instruments do microtones trivially 21:27:42 saxophones I think are a bit less trivial, but still doable without too much effort 21:27:47 I have also worked with some non-12TET music, although I did them by computer. 21:28:02 so have I, but I got bored with doing them by computer 21:28:06 so I defretted a guitar :) 21:28:25 (I do sometimes still use a midi keyboard for it, but it feels weird not to have the octave-pattern repeat) 21:28:27 Zwaarddijk: turku? 21:28:32 Hmm, I think flutes can do it as well. 21:28:34 Zwaarddijk: yes. 21:28:41 That is an idea too. Then you can readd frets to the notes that you want it to play instead? 21:28:42 er, oklopol :yes 21:28:54 And also retune the strings for the new notes. 21:29:09 zzo38: well, I could tie some thing there, sure, but I jsut leave it fretless and play by ear 21:30:38 Zwaarddijk: me 2, that's why 21:30:45 oh, cool 21:30:52 university of turku? 21:30:55 why would df show the used and available 1k blocks not adding up to the total size? 21:31:05 i've deleted a bunch of packages, but available blocks is still 0 21:31:10 used is going down 21:31:12 yes, university of turku 21:31:16 i practically live there 21:31:36 älä vaan sano että sä oot asteriski 21:32:16 ict:n kellarissahan asuu niitä jonkun verran 21:32:29 olin asteriski, mutta knnyin matemaatikoksi 21:32:32 (sorrry for the moon-language, people) 21:32:41 ah, onneks olkoon! 21:32:49 en harrasta opiskelijaelm, asun tyhuoneessani 21:33:32 just niin. tutkija vai onko sulla jopa opettajan virka? 21:33:54 "*jopa* opettajan virka" :D 21:33:57 tutkija olen 21:34:06 I fear I've just witnessed a pun I don't get at all 21:34:17 ja opiskelija, en ole viel maisteri. 21:34:23 ohho. 21:34:37 ite kirjoitan vasta nyt kandin 21:34:50 (vaikk olen opiskellut vuodelta 2003) 21:34:58 ais523: no not really, he just asked me if i'm a researcher, or even a teacher. which i disagreed with since being a teacher is a lesser job. 21:35:15 (the amusing thing is, most channels would just go "this is an English-speaking channel" in that situation; here, a) nobody cares, and b) nobody could truthfully make that statement anyway) 21:35:16 teachers have better contracts, though 21:35:17 Zwaarddijk: itse aloitin 2008 21:35:32 gradun sain valmiiksi viime viikolla 21:35:35 ensimmäiset kaksi vuotta opiskelin toki venäjää 21:35:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:35:51 ja sen jälkeen oon ollut pari vuotta nokian tehtaan lattialla 21:35:55 :D 21:35:56 ok 21:36:24 mistä kirjoitit? 21:36:34 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:36:38 kandini on P=?NPstä 21:37:05 gradu on kuvakielist. 21:37:07 tällä hetkellä näyttää siitä että yritän selittää (ja ymmärtää) miksi relativisointi ei auta 21:37:25 ai? wtf, kenelle teet? 21:37:43 mikä handledare on suomeksi 21:37:49 advisor 21:38:03 . no miks se nyt on... 21:38:04 :D 21:38:10 on uh Ion Petre, ÅA:n tietojenkäsittelytieteen proffa 21:38:30 ai A:lla on tietojenksittelytiedett :D 21:38:35 onpas. 21:38:41 nyt se on nimeltään datavetenskap 21:38:53 ennen vanhaan - sillon kun mä aloitin se oli "informationsbehandling2 21:38:56 *" 21:39:25 "ohjaaja" 21:39:35 se on termi 21:39:38 ok. 21:39:53 tulee melkein englantia puhuttua enemmn livenkin 21:39:58 kun tiss kaikki ulkomaalaisia 21:40:18 no, paitsi muut opiskelijat, mutta en ky kauheasti luennoilla 21:40:21 miten matematiikassa saa kuvakielistä gradua aikaan? 21:40:25 fizzie, translate! 21:40:35 siten ett kuvakielet ovat formaalien kielten alalaji 21:40:47 odotas hetki 21:40:53 meill tehdn matematiikan laitoksella aika paljon teoreettista cs: 21:41:01 mite "kuvakieli" tarkkaan on englanniksi? 21:41:03 *mitä 21:41:04 picture language 21:41:28 wikipedian artikkeli on aika <3 21:41:47 ok, en tiennytkään että semmosta käsitettä on olemassakaan 21:41:51 ei kukaan tied 21:42:09 sehn siin hienoa onkin kun avoimet ongelmat on ihan vitun helppoja ratkoa kun niit on 5 ihmist yrittnyt 21:42:18 What links here kertoo kuinka moni tietää 21:42:36 HELP I AM TRAPPED IN A FINNPOCALYPSE 21:42:49 kannattaa mys huomata wp:n artikkelin referenssilista, hofl ja sitten joku aivan vitun random sivu :D 21:43:05 oklopol: munkin pitäisi löytää semmosta tieteen ala 21:43:24 *alaa 21:43:44 Zwaarddijk: no eiks se P?=NP ole juuri sellainen 21:43:48 ketn kiinnosta vittuakaan 21:43:53 .D 21:44:17 this is pretty absurd 21:44:21 it is. 21:44:27 i mean this finnish 21:44:43 THERE IS TOO MUCH AND ALL THE LETTERS ARE DOUBLE AAAA 21:45:09 The 't' in 'letters' is double 21:45:17 the o in too is too 21:45:30 And the 'l' in 'all' 21:45:40 And the "aa" in "aaaa". 21:45:42 and the AA in AAAA 21:45:43 ... 21:46:33 what's worst though, si the graphical resemblance between w and vv 21:46:35 Zwaarddijk: taking any math courses atm by any chance? :D 21:46:43 not really. 21:46:51 Zwaarddijk, oklopol frowns on you. 21:46:51 or like, one that I should've gotten done years ago 21:46:57 matrices II 21:47:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:47:07 FROWNS 21:47:23 a math is pretty bleh 21:47:35 åa math? 21:47:43 a is the university Zwaarddijk is in 21:47:49 i'm in utu 21:48:07 You. Have. A. University. Called. åa. 21:48:10 the buildings are hundreds of meters away from each other 21:48:16 <3 Finland except the bits that suck. 21:48:19 Ooh, a spectacle. 21:48:27 Phantom_Hoover: it's the abbrev 21:48:27 oklopol: except the comp.sci parts and the biochemistry parts 21:48:34 where the buildings are merged. 21:48:38 right 21:48:39 which is a terribly unholy thing 21:48:44 true 21:48:53 it's like I dunno, a white and a darkie marrying :| 21:49:01 you lesser universities should stay out of wait actually even utu sucks except for the math dep 21:49:31 Phantom_Hoover: isn't even a finnish letter, a is the swedish university. 21:49:40 Oh, OK. 21:49:45 Phantom_Hoover: Åbo Akademi, it's a Finnish/Swedish place. 21:49:57 mostly swedish/english 21:50:00 so uh, what's the lowest Erdös number in UTU? 21:50:06 i don't know 21:50:08 I can't like Sweden, it created Vorpal. 21:50:16 Phantom_Hoover: we've got nothing to do with Sweden 21:50:25 we Finnish Swedes hate on it even more than the Finns 21:50:32 Yet you speak their language. 21:50:35 (At least sort of.) 21:50:45 Zwaarddijk, suggest you pick on Vorpal. 21:50:45 sort of. but they speak a diluted terrible version :| 21:50:53 The ones I've heard mix in Finnish words about half the time. 21:51:06 well yeah 21:51:14 but that's cool :) 21:51:40 oklopol: I think ÅA has at least 4 as the lowest, but it might be 3, not entirely sure. 21:51:54 4?? 21:52:04 I have a friend with a lower Bacon number than that. 21:52:43 all i know is your math courses are rather uninteresting, and therefore utu > a 21:52:55 probably 21:53:02 I know Erkki Oja from our place has an Erdös number of at most 4 (according to some online thing). 21:53:04 The okloverse has maths and nothing else. 21:53:05 -!- leBMD has joined. 21:53:12 (And he's not a mathematician at all.) 21:53:23 (Mine's 6 now via that path.) 21:53:25 åa's comp.sci. department sucks pretty bad as well 21:53:26 hola 21:53:34 they were going to arrange a course on complexity this spring 21:53:40 fizzie: link? i can check the ones that could be small here 21:53:45 but had only one professor knowledgeable enough about it 21:53:47 and he was too busy 21:53:54 :| 21:53:56 fizzie: Ilkka Niemelä has 3 21:54:12 Zwaarddijk: we currently have a course on that stuff 21:54:13 oklopol: I think I used http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/collaborationDistance.html -- it has the "Use Erdös" button there. 21:54:53 it's pretty simple stuff tho 21:55:27 well, I figure it is - in the reading up on teh state of complexity theory for my kandi, I've been able to predict stuff tht's coming up in the book about a chapter ahead of it 21:55:30 or even two at times 21:55:36 my employer has 3, so i'll have 4 soon prolly 21:55:38 Kandi? 21:55:48 bachelor's thesis 21:55:48 Phantom_Hoover: bachelor's degree 21:55:51 or thesis 21:55:57 mostly thesis 21:56:57 Zwaarddijk: what are you reading? 21:57:32 the course is simple because we're just doing the basic np completeness stuff, complexity theory itself is rather vast already 21:57:37 -!- leBMD has quit (Client Quit). 21:57:39 have you read complexity theory companion? 21:57:57 nope 21:58:16 Papadimitriou's Computational Complexity 21:58:19 mostly 21:58:37 the leader of the math dep has erdos number 2 21:59:01 well that's really basic stuff yeah 21:59:02 oklopol, quick, publish something trivial with him. 22:00:04 4 is better than fizzie's already 22:00:13 i'm fine with that 22:00:49 same as oerjan's 22:00:57 -!- Behold has joined. 22:01:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:01:17 the erdos distance is a bit weird tho, i'd prefer publishing alone 22:01:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:02:30 What's fizzie's? 22:02:36 6 iirc 22:02:43 Tut tut tut. 22:02:44 he said it 10 lines ago or something 22:04:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:05:24 Dude, mines is less than 6. 22:05:40 6 is the upper bound I know, MathSciNet's thing doesn't really do computer science and related fields so there might be a less circuitous path. 22:06:01 Mine is 4. 22:06:13 oklopol vs. Gregor: IT'S ON 22:06:23 erm, i don't even have an erdos number yet tho 22:06:39 but 4 is likely to happen soonish 22:07:02 but if Gregor is 4, then that's less than nothing 22:07:35 Me -> Jan Vitek -> Nir Shavit -> Michael E. Saks -> Erdos 22:09:00 The path I know goes me -> Kurimo, Mikko -> Oja, Erkki -> Cooper, Leon N. -> Zeitouni, Ofer -> Diaconis, Persi W. -> Erdös. 22:09:09 That's a lot of ->s. 22:10:36 Me -> Heljanko, Keijo -> Niemelä, Ilkka N. F. -> Przymusiński, Teodor C. -> Rudin, Mary Ellen -> Erdős 22:13:26 You academics and your Erdṏs numbers. 22:13:40 No, I cannot be bothered to work out the right compose sequence. 22:14:38 That tildes and diæreses can be stacked is enough. 22:20:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:21:03 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:21:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:33:50 #esoteric should write an academic paper together. 22:34:26 I feel as though I'd be unable to contribute 22:34:35 Although I would like to try 22:35:39 Your number one problem is taking your dad's word for everything. 22:35:55 I'd suggest you fix the typos but oerjan has more experience than you at that. 22:35:58 Your number *two* problem is being convinced that you have no intellectual ability. 22:37:11 I'm not convinced I have no intellectual ability. Just that it is firmly sandwiched with #esoteric absolutely above, and RL people absolutely below 22:37:22 You'd be wrong there, as well. 22:37:44 i'm real i even have a skin 22:37:45 You're just noticing that some of us are *absurdly* good. :P 22:38:12 (I do not include myself in the set of "absurdly good". Perhaps "pretty damn smart".) 22:39:57 (my procrastination makes "absurdly good"... Not quite applicable.) 22:41:30 i used to think i was smart but i don't think i think that anymore 22:43:19 I think I'm smart, and that fucking disappoints me. 22:43:27 i'm certainly good at some stuff, but i think it's more because i actively train those abilities hours and hours every day 22:43:36 I should *not* be smart. But holy fucking *hell* almost everyone is completely and utterly STUPID. 22:44:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:44:05 So I suppose it's not that I consider myself smart as it is that I consider a good 9/10ths of humanity depressingly retarded. 22:44:35 hmm well i suppose that's close to my viewpoint 22:47:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:49:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:02:46 *Dang* profile-guided optimisation can make an absurd difference. 23:02:59 * pikhq is running bsnes, accuracy profile, in realtime. 23:09:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:11:31 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:15:21 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:25:34 -!- calamari has joined. 23:27:27 BEARTATO 23:28:42 oklopol: do you read sate? 23:28:44 .. satw 23:32:50 hey, do multi-tape automata for weaker architectures than the turing machine gain anything compared to single-tape versions? 23:33:36 er, weaker automatons 23:36:43 it can even make them TC in some cases 23:36:50 especially if you can construct a Minsky machine counter out of one tape 23:40:12 right, I kind of guessed that a pushdown automaton probably can be made TC 23:40:35 haven't taken to proving it yet 23:41:29 how to kill a process that kill -STOP and kill -KILL won't kill? 23:42:46 i guess reboot'll do it... :P 23:53:46 quintopia: kill its parents 23:54:03 it's probably a zombie, waiting to be reached 23:54:09 kill -STOP never kills anything, btw 23:54:11 *to be reaped