00:00:11 elliott: http://c-faq.com/aryptr/non0based.html 00:00:24 yes, that's for arrays 00:00:27 oh 00:00:29 pointer arithmetic 00:00:30 huh 00:16:16 !c extern void (*test)(int); test(3, 42); 00:16:20 Does not compile. 00:16:26 !c void (*test)(int); test(3, 42); 00:16:28 Does not compile. 00:16:34 o_O 00:16:40 Gregor: PLEASE MAKE THAT PRINT THE DIAGNOSTICS 00:18:05 um it has two arguments and you declare just one? 00:18:59 !c void (*test)(int); test(3); 00:19:01 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21422 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 00:19:28 that would appear to have something to do with it, then 00:19:50 !c void (*test)(); test(3, 42); 00:19:52 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21527 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 00:19:57 um it has two arguments and you declare just one? 00:19:59 that's the point 00:20:12 i want something that is known to require one argument, but might require more 00:20:15 seems you can't do that 00:20:24 seems so 00:23:23 http://c-faq.com/varargs/index.html might help? 00:24:06 that's for variadic functions 00:24:08 I'm talking about function pointers 00:24:11 AFAIK you can't do 00:24:15 hm 00:24:16 !c void (*test)(int, ...); test(3, 42); 00:24:17 or at least 00:24:18 ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21892 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 00:24:20 it might have different semantics 00:24:26 (variadic functions can be implemented however, pretty much) 00:24:42 well it did compile... 00:24:59 yes, but test(3, 42) could be the same as test(3, MAGIC)))42{{ 00:25:04 as in, AFAIK there's no guarantee that 00:25:05 f(1,2,3) 00:25:06 and 00:25:07 g(1,2,3) 00:25:13 are called in "the same way" if one is variadic and the other is not 00:25:21 ah 00:27:32 ok but doesn't that just mean that test must be a pointer that was declared in the same way? 00:27:41 *to a function 00:27:44 yes. which is ugly. 00:28:57 hey people! 00:29:02 hello 00:29:08 Gregor: how goes the libc.so auction? 00:29:10 hey variables! 00:29:10 hello elliott 00:29:19 variable: It's barely started 00:29:33 how's scoping! 00:29:41 oerjan: dynamic! 00:29:50 elliott: *ouch* 00:29:55 elliott: I'm supposed to say that.... 00:30:02 oerjan: hey, McCarthy did it 00:30:57 well supposedly it has its uses 00:31:09 oerjan: e.g. standard output handle 00:31:21 oerjan: like a global stack 00:31:32 (let ((*standard-output* ...)) (function-which-prints)) 00:31:33 i recall someone worked out how they should interact with delimited continuations 00:31:55 Common Lisp, Racket and many Schemes all have dynamic vars 00:31:56 under various names 00:32:06 Factor also has dynamic vars! 00:32:09 well even haskell does 00:32:57 oerjan: hm you mean the ?foo things 00:32:58 ? 00:33:03 right, I guess so 00:33:05 *things? 00:33:10 yes 00:33:16 oerjan: but lisp before 1.5 was always dynamic :) 00:33:29 mhm 00:33:32 when this first came up, one of the developers responded that the behaviour must be a bug and they'll get fixing it quickly 00:33:44 then they realised the scoping was broken :D 00:34:21 took them a while, i take 00:34:27 oerjan: well, even 1.5 was dynamic 00:34:33 but it had closures with FUNARG 00:34:40 so you could define lexically-scoped functions 00:34:44 lisp 1.5 was a mess btw :D 00:34:53 well 00:34:54 "In a language with DynamicScoping, a DynamicClosure is a function which will be evaluated in the dynamic environment it was created in rather than the one it is called from." 00:34:56 so not even lexical! 00:35:00 but close 00:35:22 c2? 00:35:28 you got me 00:35:46 which also reminded me of the fun fact that lisp 1.5 toplevel was evalquote 00:35:50 car ((a b)) => a 00:35:52 the WikiLinks sort of gave it away 00:36:02 (yes, no outer parens) 00:36:07 oerjan: it could have been meatball! 00:36:10 or text-editors! 00:36:16 or all three other OldStyleWikis 00:36:26 O KAY 00:37:34 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:37:57 -!- oklopol has joined. 00:39:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:39:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:40:45 hi oerjan 00:40:48 how's your eye 00:40:57 my eye? 00:41:03 it's ais that has the eye 00:41:05 oerjan has no eyes 00:41:07 oerjan: yes 00:41:20 OldStyleWikis that aren't c2 exist? 00:41:22 well it's reasonably ok at the time, i guess 00:41:24 00:41:39 elliott: i had a dream that you came back here some time last week 00:41:45 oklopol: i'm just here to talk to oerjan :) 00:41:51 because ##c failed at answering my question 00:41:55 then oerjan fumbled in an attempt to answer 00:41:57 oerjan answers in pm 00:42:03 ya, but oerjan knows nothing about c 00:42:06 so why would i ask him that question 00:42:11 * oerjan subtly puts a noose around elliott's foot 00:42:30 i don't care why you're back, all i know is my dreams have come true 00:42:31 YOU ARE GOING NOWHERE 00:42:32 -!- Zuu has joined. 00:42:48 also i have a master's degree, yays for me 00:43:02 wow you're stupid 00:43:04 even oerjan has a phd 00:43:08 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:43:11 >_> 00:43:17 and HE'S borderline retarded 00:43:29 also, i hate all fags. and all non-fags. 00:43:31 MAXIMUM OFFENCE ACHIEVED 00:44:02 well these things take time when you're as slow as me 00:44:15 I hate anyone who's ever had a wrong thought 00:44:22 wrong how 00:44:46 Incorrect, immoral, take your pic 00:44:48 pick 00:45:16 immortal 00:45:24 i've had both of those 00:45:57 * Sgeo would like to have an immortal thought 00:46:34 elliott: what is the question - curious? 00:46:55 curious is not a question 00:47:01 variable: If p is a pointer, is p[-1] defined equivalent to *(p-1)? I know array[-1] is undefined. 00:47:16 I know that array[n] is only defined for 0 <= n < array length 00:47:22 but this is because (array+n) is 00:47:30 (maybe <= on the last one there) 00:47:39 elliott: I'd guess yes - but I don't have a copy of the standard to check 00:47:46 on this computer 00:48:06 unfortunately my situation is not adequately described by that question unlike what i first thought :) 00:48:51 (maybe <= on the last one there) --> no 00:49:13 so "if (array_pointer < array + array_size)" is invalid/UB :D 00:49:28 you need "if (array_pointer <= array + (array_size - 1))" 00:51:51 * variable hates when gcc fails to build 00:53:46 i hate it when gcc builds, because it's a precursor to having to use gcc 00:57:44 variable: um yes 00:57:56 or wait 00:58:14 again, that's for (array+n) 01:02:20 elliott: heh - I prefer using clang - but I'm doing some benchmarking now 01:03:02 variable: unfortunately clang is C++ :) 01:03:58 elliott: I have no problems with C++ 01:04:07 also: so is gcc 01:04:10 variable: From a language POV or a programs-use-it POV? 01:04:15 And no, gcc as of 4.6.0 does not have any C++ yet. 01:04:27 Or at least as of 4.5.2, I haven't checked 4.6.0 specifically. 01:04:43 elliott: I do know that gcc core@ approved the use of C++ in the program though 01:04:49 Yes, but it hasn't happened yet. 01:05:07 variable: From a language POV, C++ is absolutely insane and would be best forgotten. From a programs-use-it POV, some alternative libcs do not support it. 01:05:09 Case in point: musl. 01:05:15 (Yet.) 01:05:16 to answer the first question: I would not be against using g++ to get "c with classes" or related types of functionality. To be honest: I'd love to see people use "C++ subset" instead of C 01:05:25 musl is looking into working with LLVM's libc++ though. 01:05:37 variable: have you ever read the C++ FQA? 01:05:43 The idea of a C plus a class is not inherently bad. 01:05:53 But the subset of C++ that is just (not) C plus a class is bad. 01:06:00 C as a language is just too bloated, but many of the ideas are decent 01:06:00 And yes I've read the C++ FAQ, the C++ Standard, and the TRs for C++ 01:06:05 ((not) C because C++ is NOT compatible with C99.) 01:06:07 * C++ 01:06:12 I didn't say FAQ. 01:06:14 I said FQA. 01:06:44 elliott: oh http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/ --> a while ago 01:06:49 * variable forgot about it 01:07:17 It's a good summary of why even the basic features of C++ are broken. 01:07:21 elliott: also, I know C99 and C++ are not compatible (neither way C89) 01:07:48 Anyway, I would prefer people not use C++ or C at all, but if I had to choose I'd choose C. 01:08:16 You can do "objects" in C (come on, you have structs and functions), and encapsulation of those objects. (Inheritance is a pain, but inheritance is evil anyway.) 01:08:31 C is not a convenient language, but C is not at a convenient level. 01:08:51 elliott: yes - but it exposes the implementation of those objects and encapsulation; you could just use the already done version of those with C++ 01:08:52 C++-as-C-with-classes removes C's advantage, i.e. being low-level, and adds a bad version of objects on top. 01:09:03 C++ in full is plain insane. 01:09:08 elliott: I would (and generally do) choose C with classes (in C++) when I write code that needs the low-level code. 01:09:17 variable: Exposes the implementation of encapsulation? 01:09:22 Please, try and violate the encapsulation of FILE. 01:09:38 Protip: you can't because it's "typedef struct ... FILE;" 01:09:40 -!- cal153 has joined. 01:09:41 elliott: what I meant by that is that: there is no reason to implement that in C when you have a C++ 01:09:42 C++ exposes implementation unless you take pains to tell it not to 01:09:42 Where ... is a name. 01:09:48 variable: But you do NOT have that in C. 01:09:54 I am not saying - implement an object system in C. 01:10:00 I am saying C already has the tools to solve the problems. 01:10:02 elliott: ah - I thought you were 01:10:17 elliott: tbh: I'd love to design my own low level C like language 01:10:18 but meh 01:10:33 this is starting to get into religious wars 01:10:40 My own.. personal.. C like language... 01:10:42 i.e., 90% of the time in a design a struct (almost certainly containing other structs) and some functions serves perfectly well. 01:10:57 The other 10% of the time you can still work something out (see: the fact that large systems are written in C). 01:11:03 elliott: I'm aware 01:11:14 C isn't a language without flaws, in fact it sucks quite fatally. But I'd still rather people use it than C++... 01:11:30 * variable refuses to continue further - I'm aware of issues and I don't think this conversation will do much 01:11:39 Fine. 01:11:47 I'm not arguing with you, however. 01:11:55 elliott: alright 01:12:17 elliott: sorry - I just had a *really* bad day 01:12:41 variable, :( 01:13:01 ok, sorry :) 01:13:16 elliott: it is not you 01:13:22 so no need to be sorry :-) 01:13:43 You can also use structures that have function pointers 01:14:03 yeah, but that is only useful when there is a need 01:14:27 variable: honestly though, it's a bit of a pointless argument in the first place as I'd rather nobody coded in C at all :) 01:14:55 elliott: well - for über low level things I don't mind C (its basically assembler macros) but in general I agree with you 01:15:08 well, I wish C semantics were as simple as assembler macros :) 01:15:16 everyone has their anti-language :-) 01:15:17 Whatever thing you can do by object oriented, you can do some things without object oriented, by using structures, unions, function pointers, preprocessor macros, and so on. 01:15:21 (mine is perl) 01:15:34 IMO everything (including drivers) should be in trusted code. I want to say "managed" code, but hate to imply a VM. 01:15:46 zzo38: you can do anything you can do in python in Assembly; question is is it worth it 01:16:00 elliott: Would it be, but one assembler is only for one computer. C is for the same program all computer. 01:16:22 Clojure's argument is that you don't need all of the benefits of objects at once. You should be able to pick and choose. 01:16:27 elliott: I would be interested in seeing some sandbox that only lets people do input & output and nothing else. 01:16:31 zzo38: Err, yes, and? 01:16:44 elliott: and the rest could be formally verified code with a small footprint 01:16:47 variable: Err, everything is input and output. 01:17:04 elliott: Because, that is why I program in C. The purpose of C is so that you can write one program on other computers too. 01:17:05 variable: I'm talking e.g. a system based on capabilities 01:17:17 elliott: yeah: pretty much :- 01:17:18 ) 01:17:20 variable: such that it would be possible to run all code in ring 0 :) 01:17:28 (eliminating the (large) overhead of syscalls) 01:17:33 (uh, and the concept of syscalls...) 01:17:46 zzo38: You can do that in any language that isn't assembly. 01:18:18 elliott: zzo38: completely unrelated, I asked this in here a while ago but only Gregor anwered 01:18:21 erm: 01:18:41 Unless it's a self-hosted compiler, the non-self-hosted version from the past lost to time, and not ported to the target architecture 01:18:43 Have you ever written a feature complete, non-trivial, bug-free, program that other people use? 01:19:12 Sgeo: you too 01:19:14 variable: Answering that question required omniscience. 01:19:17 (to answer "bug-free") 01:19:21 Sgeo wrote PSOX. :-P 01:19:36 Which is not feature complete, trivial, has bugs, and nobody uses it! ;D 01:19:38 variable: I don't know. I did write some programs for specific customers. 01:19:46 elliott: by bug-free I mean: no known bugs with reasonable testing 01:19:48 I think the last time I wrote a non-trivial program on my own was PSOX. Or maybe Evolution. But Evolution wasn't on my own. And PSOX, while intended to be used by others... what elliott said 01:19:55 elliott, trivial? 01:19:56 Really? 01:20:03 I take offense to that! 01:20:04 variable: That's VERY hard to define. 01:20:23 For instance, I don't think the current mcmap revision, which I've contributed a non-trivial amount of code to, has any KNOWN bugs, but I am almost certain it contains bugs. 01:20:24 elliott: define it as you will, I'm sure you get the intent of the question 01:20:28 The last committed version of PSOX has a syntax error. I don't know why. 01:20:36 "Feature complete" is basically impossible to define too, every program can have more features :P 01:21:03 elliott: by "feature complete" I mean: that which you have no interest in adding more features too and/or has accomplished its states goals 01:21:16 again: I'm sure you get the intent of the question 01:21:34 I presume the intent is to demonstrate that basically no such programs exist. 01:21:43 Apart from those that are old and used extensively in industry. 01:21:47 (As in, 70s old.) 01:21:49 zzo38: I could answer yes to two programs I've written. Other than thay they are either not bug-free or not feature complete 01:21:56 And whose needs never change. 01:22:20 TeXnicard might be good, if, later I could also make it so that external programs are not required anymore. But it is not quite complete I am sure it has bugs too probably 01:22:22 elliott: the intent of my question is something along the lines of "have you ever finished or completed a program?" 01:22:28 variable: Which two programs? 01:22:32 variable: You don't finish programs. 01:22:46 variable: A finished program is a program that nobody uses any more. 01:22:57 zzo38: one was a program to manage users and such for Google Apps 01:23:20 elliott, so PSOX is finished! 01:23:32 I very much doubt that program has no bugs. 01:23:44 variable: Anyway, I wrote an implementation of cat once or twice. 01:23:49 That is feature-complete, bug-free. 01:24:44 Some of my programs, it even says so, in the program, that it can certainly be improved. 01:25:05 elliott: it was written for a contract with specific features in mind and it completed all those tasks without any bugs (after a year of testing) 01:25:14 *without any known bugs 01:25:18 variable: What language? 01:25:23 (This is relevant.) 01:25:47 elliott: python. I do NOT count language implementation bugs as relevant here (just as I don't count faulty hardware as bugs) 01:25:53 variable: The program has bugs. 01:26:22 explain? 01:26:38 elliott, variable could secretly be God. 01:26:42 Well, for one Python allows any value to be None, which is obviously extremely dangerous 01:26:55 *dangerous. 01:27:05 I would be very surprised if it didn't have bugs even going by that alone. 01:27:06 elliott: I've got to run right now. 01:27:13 tired of my trolling? :) 01:27:22 elliott: actually: important phone call 01:27:25 but close ;-p 01:27:33 I hate telephones. 01:28:11 elliott: Why? 01:28:17 they're annoying :) 01:29:26 I think it is very simple making telephone, just the switch, microphone, speaker. Now you can call anyone, receive telephone call, and even call waiting can work (however, I do not like to subscribe to call waiting). 01:29:38 Who cares how simple it is to make? 01:30:19 Did you make a telephone like that? 01:30:23 No. 01:30:31 Then do so. 01:30:56 And if you don't like it, you can disconnect it. 01:31:27 (1) No. I don't want to. (2) I already know I wouldn't like it, so why bother? 01:31:39 Everyone who has not yet contributed to the libc.so fund: There is still time! As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are highly advised to consider it! 01:31:56 What is a Evisceration Chamber? 01:32:15 zzo38: A chamber where you will be eviscerated. 01:32:15 Exactly what it sounds like. 01:32:58 I do not think I can send the money anyways. Even if I did want to use that service. And I do not need that service. 01:33:35 zzo38: Donate the money. 01:33:43 elliott: To where? 01:33:46 Gregor. 01:33:52 Where is Gregor? 01:33:59 Purdue. 01:34:12 Sorry, I don't live there. 01:34:18 That doesn't mean you can't send money there. 01:34:28 This is quite the conversation. 01:34:38 zzo38 would need to make his own money transfer service first. 01:34:56 01:35:02 I don't even know how much money it costs. 01:36:08 zzo38: It does not cost any money, you just give him some amount to use to buy libc.so. 01:36:12 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:36:13 It can be as much as you can afford. 01:36:18 Or as little as one cent. 01:36:38 How can I decide what amount if I don't know how much it costs? 01:36:51 -!- wareya has joined. 01:36:51 zzo38, Gregor doesn't know. It's an auction 01:37:13 You don't need to donate much to avoid the Evisceration Chamber. 01:37:35 zzo38: Just decide to give as much as you think Gregor deserves to help him buy libc.so in the auction. 01:37:42 So this could be 1 cent or it could be more money if you want. 01:39:17 ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Everyone who has not yet contributed to the libc.so fund: There is still time! As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are highly advised to 01:39:18 consider it! 01:39:19 Erm 01:39:21 Faillol 01:39:48 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are. 01:39:52 :( 01:39:57 faillol, the new homeopathic drug that is all the rage 01:41:30 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: Those who don't contribute will be forced into Evisceration Chamber. If you haven't donated, you are highly advised to consider it!. 01:43:14 oerjan: more like HOMOSEXUAL 01:43:21 Homosexulol 01:43:53 Is it the possible to pay someone for a card, send it to someone in any way (including morse code or telephone), and then they can withdraw it on the other side in the same way? 01:43:55 apply rectally 01:45:12 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 01:45:48 (Adding to my question) That is, without any accounts needed for anything? 01:46:30 "international money order" rings a bell 01:46:56 zzo38: Is this how you plan to pay Gregor? 01:47:55 elliott: I just mean in general. I might not pay Gregor. 01:48:04 zzo38: But you will be eviscerated! 01:49:58 I don't believe that. If the libc.so service interests me I will make such a payment. But right now it doesn't. 01:50:40 Gregor: Perhaps we should have a pre-emptive funeral for zzo38. 01:50:48 Poor, poor zzo38. 01:51:09 I need to funeral for if I am dead. The funeral will cost too much. 01:51:12 s/to/no/ 01:51:24 I do not want anyone to make funeral for when I am dead, please. 01:51:56 zzo38: Our funerals cost nothing. 01:52:20 (They might involve evisceration) 01:53:23 I still want no funeral for me. 01:53:59 zzo38: You have no choice. 01:54:04 Evisceratory funerals are mandatory. 01:54:36 Happiness is mandatory. So an evisceratory funeral must be happy! 01:54:47 Celebrate the evisceration of zzo38! 01:55:49 Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. 01:56:48 Too bad, I made sure the auction cannot end. 01:56:52 How? 01:57:21 It is not permitted for you to know. 01:57:28 I demand to know. 01:57:54 It does not matter if you demand, it is still not permitted. 01:59:08 Gregor: isn't it more like fluidity, really? 01:59:30 oerjan: It's a quote from some random esotericist that came in here :P 01:59:35 I'm trying to establish it as our creed. 01:59:36 ah. 02:00:13 elliott: you are not cleared for this information. please report for evisceration. 02:00:35 (And/or donation to the libc.so fund) 02:02:25 Gregor: Relevant: I updated the main page. 02:02:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: Those who don't contribute will be forced into the Evisceration Chamber. If you haven't donated, you are highly advised to consider it!. 02:02:55 elliott: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 02:03:06 Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. Have a nice day! 02:11:21 I have one idea for electronic payment which I do not know if anything like this implemented. You go to the bank and pay them any amount of cash (no bank account is needed), and then will give you a card containing a SSH public key. You can use this to issue three commands "inquiry", "split", or "convert"; or you can go to a different bank and give then the card and they will give you your money back (no accounts needed, no questions needed). 02:11:57 A PUBLIC key? 02:12:00 Don't you mean a private key? 02:12:44 Maybe. 02:13:39 I might have made a mistake. But I think in public/private key cryptograpy, some schemes just have two keys, and either one can be used for access of the other. 02:13:59 Usually private keys are a lot bigger. 02:15:18 Yes, a private key is probably what is needed. I think I made a mistake. 02:15:41 Oh dear. 02:16:10 However, it does not necessarily have to be a public/private key system. Something else might also work if it is secure. 02:59:55 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- comex_ has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- wareya has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- yorick has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- nooga has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- nottwo has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:55 -!- Mannerisky has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- SimonRC has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- cheater00 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- cal153 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- pingveno has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- Lymia has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- z^ck has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- elliott has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- Zwaarddijk has quit (*.net *.split). 02:59:56 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 03:07:17 -!- EgoBot has joined. 03:20:32 -!- ineiros has joined. 03:20:32 -!- z^ck has joined. 03:20:32 -!- jix has joined. 03:20:32 -!- Lymia has joined. 03:20:32 -!- pingveno has joined. 03:20:32 -!- cal153 has joined. 03:20:32 -!- Zuu has joined. 03:20:32 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 03:20:32 -!- fungot has joined. 03:20:32 -!- coppro has joined. 03:20:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:20:32 -!- fizzie has joined. 03:20:32 -!- myndzi has joined. 03:20:32 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:20:32 -!- augur_ has joined. 03:20:32 -!- sftp has joined. 03:20:32 -!- shachaf has joined. 03:20:32 -!- Leonidas has joined. 03:20:32 -!- SimonRC has joined. 03:20:32 -!- lambdabot has joined. 03:20:32 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 03:20:32 -!- nottwo has joined. 03:20:32 -!- mtve has joined. 03:20:32 -!- clog has joined. 03:20:32 -!- Mannerisky has joined. 03:20:32 -!- aloril has joined. 03:20:32 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:20:32 -!- quintopia has joined. 03:20:32 -!- cheater00 has joined. 03:20:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:20:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 03:20:32 -!- wareya has joined. 03:20:32 -!- Gregor has joined. 03:20:32 -!- HackEgo has joined. 03:20:32 -!- yorick has joined. 03:20:32 -!- izydor has joined. 03:20:47 -!- nooga_ has joined. 03:20:47 -!- jcp has joined. 03:20:47 -!- variable has joined. 03:20:47 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined. 03:20:47 -!- Vorpal has joined. 03:20:47 -!- tswett has joined. 03:20:47 -!- Deewiant has joined. 03:20:47 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 03:20:47 -!- Ilari has joined. 03:20:50 -!- dbc has joined. 03:20:50 -!- comex_ has joined. 03:20:50 -!- olsner has joined. 03:20:53 -!- elliott has joined. 03:20:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:20:53 -!- Slereah has joined. 03:20:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:20:53 -!- Zwaarddijk has joined. 03:20:53 -!- yiyus has joined. 03:20:54 ah 03:21:05 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest86411. 03:21:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:22:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:22:28 -!- izydor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:23:09 so did everyone else get split from nearly everyone else? 03:25:06 oh there's a notice about a hub in EU missing 03:26:03 i guess that could do it 03:29:12 -!- Guest86411 has changed nick to elliott. 03:29:16 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 03:29:17 -!- elliott has joined. 03:29:37 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:37:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:47:36 "C is a subset of C++" ;; wow, people actually say this. 03:48:32 C is a subset, that's good enough for me 03:48:55 "the great John Dvorak" giving up reading this post now 03:49:19 at least the G isn't capitalized 04:02:23 hey oerjan i have a nice game for you to play 04:02:23 http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html 04:07:37 6.6m yes!!! 04:08:50 6.8!!!! 04:08:53 oerjan how well did you do ;D 04:24:15 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:27:56 * oerjan was taking a walk, actually 04:30:57 oerjan: Excuses! 04:31:00 in our lovely march spring snow 04:32:04 wtf is this shit 04:39:01 ok i managed to activate the windows slow keys dialog, i take this as my clue to give up 04:39:09 *gue 04:54:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:56:06 -!- lament has joined. 05:21:31 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:08:56 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:01:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:05:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:16:46 -!- cheater- has joined. 07:17:46 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:21:35 -!- elliott has joined. 07:23:44 04:32:04: wtf is this shit 07:23:45 04:39:01: ok i managed to activate the windows slow keys dialog, i take this as my clue to give up 07:23:45 04:39:09: *gue 07:23:47 :D 07:23:51 how far did you get 07:24:00 not very far 07:28:43 oerjan: i presume you've tried the classic QWOP then 07:28:47 (same guy) 07:29:20 i cannot recall. i am not much of a player of games, other than puzzle games 07:29:33 http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html it's not a game, it's a torture program 07:30:22 fine, then i don't have to look at it 07:30:46 who said the torture was optional 07:31:18 hey it even has a wp article :D 07:32:30 In QWOP I did run (...well, "run") the hundred metres, but in GIRP I barely managed two metres. 07:34:28 Proof: http://zem.fi/~fis/runner.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner2.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner3.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner4.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner5.png 07:35:26 fizzie: That's the Cheating Method. 07:35:43 Observe correct method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJeJtK7Q2kk 07:36:05 I've got to 10 m in GIRRRRRP 07:38:11 fizzie: With GIRP the trick is to press shift at clever times. 07:39:12 which incidentally is precisely how you activate slow keys in windows. approximately. 07:39:37 :D 07:39:46 oerjan: don't you mean 07:39:46 STICKYKEYS 07:39:55 maybe that's the norwegian name 07:40:01 possibly, i'm backtranslating here 07:40:39 except i think there are two different settings one might accidentally trigger this way 07:40:55 one by holding a key too long, the other by pushing it too many times 07:41:06 and i'm not quite sure which one i did 07:41:30 well QWOP has no use of the shift key at all! 07:42:26 i'm really not very fond of games that depend on dexterity and timing. especially since i developed rsi-like symptoms. 07:44:21 actually, that + unpredictable feedback 07:49:26 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 07:52:21 oerjan: you realise the game is not meant to be _enjoyable_ :D 07:52:32 O KAY 07:52:54 curiously, i'm not very fond of games that are not enjoyable, either 07:53:03 how odd 07:53:07 the best game is irc 07:53:10 infinite possibilities 07:53:32 well the ai is pretty good 07:53:43 nah. 07:53:50 it only has one personality 07:53:50 fag 07:53:53 :| 07:54:06 this was entitled: 07:54:09 the joys of solipsism 07:55:42 the dryness of water 07:58:01 the unbearable lightness of lead 07:58:28 the chocolate of merchantability 07:58:40 the pindrop of castrated bongos 07:58:56 i think you slipped out of the theme there 07:59:11 your mom slipped out of the theme there. 07:59:21 hey that lines up 07:59:24 with my proportional font 07:59:24 :D 07:59:37 you proportional fiend! 07:59:51 oerjan: only in proportion!! HAHAHAHAHA 08:00:08 ...o kay 08:00:16 * oerjan backs away carefully 08:00:35 HAHAHAHA 08:18:37 oerjan: where is : the moon? 08:19:07 ...still insane, i take 08:19:41 oerjan: THE MOON 08:19:46 you would....... withhold the moon 08:22:06 oerjan: :| 08:22:41 i'm ashamed in oerjan. 08:22:49 how lunatic of you 08:23:21 oerjan: the moon ruse was a...... DISTACTION 08:23:39 i have the irc. 08:23:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA). 08:24:02 :DDD this means i win 08:29:12 elliott, I love df. I just updated it and now it has bee keeping as well. :D 08:29:27 does it hvae irc 08:29:31 nope 08:29:35 alme 08:29:59 elliott, however bee keeping requires an industry of ceramics, for making honey pots 08:30:18 elliott, that means a lot of attention to various types of glazing of the jugs in true df spirit! 08:30:40 at last Vorpal finds a game as tedious as he is! 08:30:47 ;D 08:30:53 hah 08:31:21 elliott, of course the clay industry is also complex. I'm reading up on that atm 08:32:45 elliott, quoting the release notes for the update that introduced this: 08:32:48 "I didn't get very far into glazing, but you can ash glaze and tin glaze (with cassiterite). Earthenware jugs need to be glazed to hold liquids. Stoneware and porcelain jugs don't require glaze but can be glazed." 08:33:02 that is already more detail than what most games would include 08:33:08 shouldn't this be in -minecraft where it's off-topic 08:33:21 arguably it is just as off topic here 08:33:40 indeed 08:34:19 elliott, but seriously you have to admire the attention to detail put into df. 08:34:19 18:59:28: GNU bash, version 2.05b.0(1)-release (powerpc-apple-darwin8.0) 08:34:19 18:59:28: Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 08:34:19 when the heck did i use this ... 08:34:35 oh maybe that was 10.4's bash and it just said powerpc 08:34:40 Vorpal: yeah, wouldn't play it though :P 08:35:19 elliott, sure the learning curve is not so much a curve as a non-derivable discontinuity in the graph but once you get past that, it is awesome 08:37:13 elliott, I'm using the site finder atm to find a nice place to embark on a new world to test out this new bee keeping stuff 08:37:36 shut up, trying to remember the name of that thing so i can respond 08:37:42 elliott, of what thing? 08:37:47 thing 08:37:48 ;P 08:37:57 describe it or something 08:38:49 where is like 08:38:51 whoooooooo 08:38:52 im a function 08:38:54 imma go straight up 08:38:56 because fuck you 08:38:59 now 08:39:02 im going straight down 08:39:05 you cannot stop me!! 08:39:07 could be math, could be programming. 08:39:13 mathzz 08:39:17 and it ends up looking all _|_ 08:39:18 and people are like 08:39:20 lol function 08:39:21 what are you even? 08:39:23 elliott, asymtope? 08:39:26 not sure about spelling 08:39:27 no 08:39:29 it has some fancy name 08:39:31 that is named after a person 08:39:35 who it is named after. 08:39:38 hrrm 08:40:10 where a function just totally goes up for one instant 08:40:12 'cuz it doesn't even give a shit. 08:40:27 elliott, like the plot of tan(x) does? 08:40:35 no no no. 08:40:39 it is some specific thing 08:40:41 used in some field of things. 08:40:42 hm 08:40:54 there was an abstruse goose comic that referenced it once! ill find that :D 08:41:16 goose comic, never heard of that one 08:41:18 * Vorpal googles 08:41:35 oh the abstruse is part of the name heh 08:41:46 it's like xkcd but worse but better 08:42:31 elliott, the front page comic... Either they are several or there doesn't seem to be much connection between the topics in it. 08:42:44 aha, got to the end. Well that explains it 08:47:16 we could just wait for oerjan to tell us 08:47:21 doubt oklopol would know, he's stupid 08:48:01 err... 08:48:12 is he? I didn't know that 08:48:56 yes totally 08:49:00 not waiting for him to come and act offended 08:49:01 nosiree 08:49:13 suure :P 08:50:49 Vorpal: please, enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidarity this fine tuesday :) 08:50:52 *solidity 08:50:53 X_X 08:52:21 elliott, sounds interesting. What does it do? 08:52:32 Vorpal: confines you to solid forms, one presumes 08:52:35 matrixly 08:52:48 or maybe the MATRIX is solid. 08:52:55 and you're just confined in a nondescript manner. 08:53:00 who knows? only its original utterer. 08:53:32 elliott, weren't you the original utterer? Or did you quote someone? 08:53:54 or perhaps paraphrase someone 08:53:57 It's the new Esoteric Motto, provoked by me, uttered by some insane esoterica-seeker, and popularised by Gregor. 08:54:12 It tells me that I should mock such people more often. 08:54:35 so someone who came here and had no clue what the channel was about? 08:54:49 Yes. 08:55:07 Well, actually we did a stupid magick skit :P 08:55:11 I DON'T THINK THEY WERE FOOLED 09:59:59 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:35:09 argh the df wiki seems down 12:11:32 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:23:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:32:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:32:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:38:15 s/motto/creed/ 12:45:10 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:22:23 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:31:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:33:03 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 13:33:57 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:05:28 hmm! 14:05:45 i think Pure might be very similar to my intentions for antigravity when i was seriously poking around with it 14:05:47 also, Gregor! 14:06:17 oh, no, Pure is not, ok. 14:06:52 Gregor rrrrr! 14:09:31 augur: Is this you wanting to donate to the libc.so fund? :P 14:09:45 no 14:09:48 :( 14:09:52 this is me wanting to talk about generative music 14:10:04 i mean, i'll donate well wishings to the fund 14:10:04 but 14:10:06 other than that! 14:11:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:19:10 augur: Well now I don't know if I want to *huff* 14:19:29 ? 14:21:08 I would talk about generative music ... 14:21:18 But since you'll just be forced into the Evisceration Chamber anyway, what difference does it make? 14:21:33 XD 14:21:39 do you know of any good papers on the topic? 14:33:15 Gregor! 14:34:15 -!- sftp has joined. 14:35:11 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:38:37 augur: Nope :P 14:38:43 :| 14:39:07 I've never read any paper on the subject, because I've never heard generated music that isn't abysmally bad. 14:39:31 well 14:39:34 ok 14:39:46 im just looking for frameworks, really 14:41:05 Well, then enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. 14:41:29 :| 14:41:34 i like being solid 14:41:38 i dont want to be goo 14:41:39 :( 14:42:02 elliott: These poor, poor mundanes locked in their matrices. 14:42:41 BTW my log format is prettier than it was before :) 14:42:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:44:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:57:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:01:45 http://codu.org/logs/log.html?c=_esoteric&d=2011-03-29#073046elliott <-- check out this magic! 15:02:51 oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights! 15:03:33 Gregor, do you have, like, a fetish for huge columns of blank space? 15:03:52 Phantom_Hoover: Do you have, like, a fetish for having such a ridiculously long name that I have to overallocate? 15:04:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________. 15:04:15 Hmm. 15:04:30 There are still about 5 empty columns. 15:04:42 So you just have a fetish for being a complaining bitch. 15:04:43 Got it. 15:05:03 ...Jesus, there's no need to be so upset. 15:05:22 There, reduced. 15:05:24 the blank space sort-of annoyed me as well, although it's the fault of people with long nicks rather than of the page 15:05:27 Now quit thine bitching :P 15:05:38 juiced dealt with the issue by clipping long names and padding short ones 15:05:48 Why do people always think I'm /upset/ when I act like a jerk? I'm just a jerk. 15:06:23 Not really. 15:06:37 Well, you don't act like a jerk *most* of the time. 15:08:30 Anyway you're supposed to be amazed by my awesome highlighting and permalinking by-line. 15:09:11 is the highlighting JS-based? 15:09:18 The whole page is JS-based. 15:09:22 The formatting is JS-based. 15:09:41 hmm, I normally have JS off 15:09:58 15:10:03 but I don't really mind if it still degrades gracefully anyway 15:10:09 It doesn't. 15:10:20 stalker mode needing JS makes sense 15:10:28 -!- augur has changed nick to hamiltonian. 15:10:30 I suppose I could make it degrade "gracefully" by forwarding you to the text version :P 15:10:31 -!- hamiltonian has changed nick to augur. 15:12:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:25:11 -!- augur has joined. 15:34:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:34:48 There, if you don't have JS then it degrades to text. All those who don't have JS: Welcome to 2011, we are pleased to see that your long-term cryogenic sleep was successful. Please enjoy your stay. 15:35:39 -!- augur has joined. 15:40:51 -!- lament has joined. 15:42:20 Gregor, I once had to wrangle with someone who said that not having *CSS* degrade gracefully was EVIL. 15:42:30 -!- PH______________ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 15:42:42 Ironically, this probably does degrade gracefully if you have JS but no CSS :P 15:44:08 Phantom_Hoover: what if you want to quickly look something up in w3m while programming? 15:44:12 (I actually do that sometimes) 15:44:48 ais523_, it wasn't even that graceless. You just got some random letters and numbers in place of some random characters. 15:59:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:01:58 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:02:26 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:02:31 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:03:07 There, if you don't have JS then it degrades to text. All those who don't have JS: Welcome to 2011, we are pleased to see that your long-term cryogenic sleep was successful. Please enjoy your stay. <-- the issue with js is that a lot of sites use it in a way that doubles their loading time, even if they don't use js for the actual loading (in other words, those that still work and don't become 16:03:07 blank without js) 16:03:26 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 16:04:41 at least that is my experience using firefox. Of course some of that can probably be blamed on firefox too, but I have noticed the same pattern even in browsers I use less often. 16:06:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:07:46 -!- augur has joined. 16:08:40 There, it even works in w3m now. 16:08:42 Now shoo. 16:08:44 The problem with disabling JS is that this is the year 2011. 16:08:52 The web is no longer just a text medium, it is a platform. 16:09:00 APNIC down 0.09: 64k to Taiwan, 16k to Vietnam, 2x128k+20x64k+1k to China, 256 to Australia, 256 to India, 256 to Sigapore, 1k to Samoa. 16:09:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:13:04 Estimate for depletion stays at Friday April 15th. 16:14:05 2.118 blocks this calender month. 16:16:34 Even half that would be historically quite rare (IIRC, >1 block per month has been exeeded 4 times before this month, 2 being this year) 16:18:00 Logaritmic space: /7.588. 16:21:28 Last 30 days: 2.660 blocks. Wow, just wow. 16:24:05 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:29:44 -!- azaq231 has joined. 16:30:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:40:49 There, it even works in w3m now. <-- what about lynx? 16:40:55 ;P 16:48:23 bbl 16:58:14 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 16:58:15 -!- Zuu has joined. 16:59:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 17:00:51 -!- cal153 has joined. 17:01:29 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:01:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:01:36 oerjan! 17:01:47 Phantom_Hoover! 17:06:37 FireFly! 17:06:49 me? 17:07:02 swatting is unnecessary, I promise 17:07:07 DAMMIT FIREFLY YOU BROKE THE CHAIN 17:07:12 INCOMPETENT SWEDE 17:07:16 :< 17:07:29 WHY ARE ALL SWEDES INCOMPETENT 17:07:38 Because your line lacks a question mark 17:07:38 EXCEPT OLSNER, HE'S ALL RIGHT 17:08:51 * oerjan swats FireFly for breaking the chain -----### 17:08:59 GOOD WORK OERJAN 17:09:13 oerjan, i'm in a lot of places 17:09:56 sebbu: um but surely only on one freenode server? i was referring to the weird netsplit that was just happening then 17:10:07 NORW... YOU GUYS NEED A BETTER REFERENTIAL THING 17:10:42 while hopping from server to server, it looked like every server was split from every other. 17:11:03 (this included the logbots) 17:11:23 yes, only one freenode server 17:12:04 Phantom_Hoover: quite possibly. 17:12:16 LIKE... NORDS. OR NORNS. 17:12:16 i'm connected to that server since almost 2 day 17:12:26 (since my last disconnection) 17:13:04 sebbu: there was a global notice afterwards that a big hub in the EU had disappeared. 17:14:45 yeah, i see just pratchett & anthony 17:17:01 I'm assuming something's rotten in the state of Freenode? 17:29:57 Phantom_Hoover: it may even have been in the vicinity of denmark 17:31:26 MY GOD 17:31:33 yorick, YOUR COMMENTS! 17:35:56 we could just wait for oerjan to tell us 17:36:03 jump discontinuity perhaps? 17:36:57 -!- cpressey has joined. 17:37:36 08:39:29: it has some fancy name 17:37:36 08:39:31: that is named after a person 17:37:42 oh. dirac delta? 17:38:09 -!- [DaTa] has joined. 17:38:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:39:40 oh hm that's not actually a "real" function. there's a plain delta function which is, though. 17:39:59 kronecker delta 17:40:07 <[DaTa]> Hey 17:40:19 hi [DaTa] 17:40:52 <[DaTa]> Testing mobile irc app 17:41:34 <[DaTa]> Didn't want to interrupt sorry 17:41:54 well no one but me were talking at the moment anyway 17:42:55 <[DaTa]> Kk 17:43:22 -!- [DaTa] has left. 17:48:18 * Phantom_Hoover wonders who that was. 17:48:33 oh hm that's not actually a "real" function. there's a plain delta function which is, though. ← define "real"? 17:52:59 Hmm, the Cantor set is uncountable? 17:53:51 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function explains it 17:53:51 cpressey: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 17:53:55 I WILL 17:54:17 "real" = the usual set of pairs kind 17:54:25 I like the way we use lambdabot as an impromptu MemoServ. 17:54:37 oerjan, isn't the delta function just that? 17:55:12 no. the dirac delta is supposed to be zero everywhere except at zero, and still have integral one. this is impossible for a real function. 17:55:23 Oh, right. 17:56:58 cpressey, have you received the HORRIBLE NEWS? 17:56:59 Phantom_Hoover: obviously. 17:57:20 yorick, where are you? 17:57:28 also, yes the cantor set is uncountable, same cardinality as the real numbers or the interval [0,1]. 17:57:39 Phantom_Hoover: in the hollands 17:57:47 yorick, not DENMARK? 17:57:53 Phantom_Hoover: no NOT DENMARK 17:57:58 oerjan, hmm, it seems it should be countable... 17:58:01 Phantom_Hoover: your news? 17:58:12 cpressey, didn't you get the memo from lambdabot? 17:58:15 yes. 17:58:21 well she is a "scientist" 17:58:27 No she isn't. 17:58:34 in a sense the only difference is that in the cantor set you don't identify .01111.... with .10000.... etc. but the number of such cases _are_ countable and therefore don't affect the total cardinality. 17:58:36 (quote scientist) 17:58:49 (scare-quote scientist) 17:59:08 What she does is closest, perhaps, to mathematics, but only in the loosest sense. 17:59:21 (when thinking of the cantor set in binary. i guess in the usual "remove center" version s/1/2/ and use trinary.) 17:59:35 s/1/2/g 17:59:44 I think I'm insulted on behalf of mathematics. 18:00:03 Hence 'loosest sense'. 18:00:03 What she does is more akin to accounting. 18:00:22 That's better, actually. 18:00:38 Probably not even zzo's insane accounting. 18:00:49 Well, except accounting has a purpose. 18:00:51 Which, unlike everything else zzo does, actually sounds interesting. 18:00:59 cpressey, IT HAS A PURPOSE 18:01:01 Oh man. I was not aware of this 18:01:09 How ELSE will people mine data????? 18:01:14 * cpressey tries to imagine zzo38's accounting methods 18:01:22 I like the way we use lambdabot as an impromptu MemoServ. <-- recently when someone tried to send me a MemoServ memo i nearly missed it because its unobtrusive notice got lost in the server status messages. 18:01:39 cpressey, it involved Dirac notation. 18:03:25 I... that's beautiful. 18:04:18 it was sort of neat 18:05:07 So, I have this vague recollection that I'm wondering if it's an hallucination on my part. Wasn't there once a programming language called "Fish", or "Fish Programming Language", which had an article somewhere (on Wikipedia I think) -- it involved a big picture of a fish, and each scale on the fish had a number(?) and colour(?) and you programmed it by changing these? 18:05:29 not to be confused with deadfish, i assume 18:05:34 Nor <>< 18:06:10 and definitely not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISh_%28programming_language%29 18:06:55 or blub 18:07:28 wait wait 18:07:29 http://www.chemistrydaily.com/chemistry/FiPL 18:08:07 was deleted from Wikipedia 18:08:21 and not on esolangs.org anywhere that i can see 18:08:28 and official site is down (of course) 18:08:28 That sounds familiar, with the colored scales thing. 18:08:59 this all sounds somewhat fishy 18:09:59 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:10:17 "Fish" is a not very greppable term. 18:10:25 [2007-01-14 01:28:51] < oerjan> A very fishy language. 18:10:34 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 18:10:43 (That was re: homespring.) 18:11:57 It's not exactly an uncommon theme here, is it? 18:12:08 No, we're all quite fishy. 18:12:27 Looking for both fish and scale just gives me fungot "this evening's debate is certainly the case for amendments nos 3 and 4, so that we can all see the work we do with small-scale fishermen." 18:12:27 fizzie: i don't do anything to cause trouble with it. i might even be on fnord 18:13:55 Well, FiPL was definitely what I was thinking of; just surprised it never got an article on esolangs.org 18:15:15 OK, now EVERY feature degrades gracefully. 18:15:19 No more complaining, nonJSers. 18:15:21 NO MORE COMPLAINING EVER. 18:15:50 -!- cpressey has changed nick to nonJSer. 18:15:53 AND PROUD OF IT 18:16:07 And yes, it even works in lynx. 18:16:19 Oh, the *day* is the HTML link. 18:16:22 Although in lynx it provides literally zero benefit over just using the text :P 18:16:24 I = slow. 18:16:24 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:16:59 -!- nonJSer has changed nick to AnMaster. 18:17:11 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 18:17:16 Oh dear, now you're really causing problems. 18:17:24 Vorpal: Have a fit plz 18:17:26 RED FLAG RED FLAG 18:17:29 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:20:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:23:20 What does the scripting do, exactly? It seems to be possible to highlight a particular line, but that's all I've found. 18:23:52 fizzie: The script was originally generating the entire log's HTML, dynamically. 18:23:59 fizzie: Then people went all "bleh I'm a caveman I don't have JS" 18:24:33 fizzie: So now the only client-side feature is the highlighting; but that's associated with the hash in the URL (e.g. #001100Gregor), so you can give somebody else that URL and have the same line highlighted. 18:24:46 As I add searching and such, things will get more sophisticated. 18:25:35 (Stalker mode still generates the HTML dynamically) 18:25:45 -!- fizzie has left ("Leaving"). 18:25:52 -!- fizzie has joined. 18:26:12 I see. 18:31:20 -!- augur has joined. 18:45:19 -!- nelix has joined. 18:54:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:54:40 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 18:54:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:55:43 Considering that I put no effort whatsoever into making the HTML logs work on mobile browsers, it works surprisingly well. 18:57:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:15:58 I'd say that for the last 5 years or so, mobile browsing has been all about making desktop sites work well 19:18:12 Yeah, that's true. 19:18:54 Jesus, America seems worse and worse the more I read. 19:20:58 Reasons why the USA seems so bad in media: 1) Our huge international influence means everything we do is global press. 2) We're freaking huge; not everything that happens anywhere in the US is even borderline representative of the entire country, and yet people don't say "France must suck!" when they hear about something terrible happening in Croatia. 3) We have some kind of problem with the notion of just laughing at people who are too stupid to live. Instead 19:20:58 they form niches and then become TV pundits. 19:21:23 Gregor, no, I mean in terms of actual quality of life. 19:21:55 You either have fucking gold-lined streets or (2) applies. 19:22:04 Yeah, OK. 19:22:11 Although even then... 19:23:16 thar's gold in them welsh hills 19:23:33 s/hills/sheep/ 19:23:48 well duh that's how they extract it 19:24:03 Am I still pretending to be Welsh? 19:24:06 the sheep eat the gold-infused grass in the hills 19:24:16 Phantom_Hoover: well i didn't want to assume you weren't 19:24:26 Phantom_Hoover: GLOGBOT KNOWS THE TRUTH NOW FOREVER 19:25:30 I've stated multiple times before that I'm Scottish, I just get a kick out of fooling V⁠orpal. 19:25:48 (And that's NBSPed to avoid pings; please don't start letting him know.) 19:26:24 nbsped? 19:26:38 Non-breaking space. 19:26:45 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:26:52 Inserted between the V and the o to throw off any ping highlighting. 19:26:54 Wait, what? 19:26:54 !glogbot_expunge_regex /:Phantom_Hoover!.*PRIVMSG #esoteric :.*scot/i 19:26:56 elliott was here? 19:27:04 my client doesn't even notice it's there... 19:27:19 Gregor, ...you can make glogbot ignore arbitrary things? 19:27:21 oerjan: Then it's a good client that understands Unicode :P 19:27:33 Gregor: O KAY 19:27:34 Phantom_Hoover: Pfff, nonsense. 19:27:50 I actually *can* see it because in a fit of madness I set every font I could to Libertine, and it kerns the hell out of everything, 19:28:06 And NBSPs prevent it. 19:28:27 Heywait, don't you mean zero-width space? 19:28:35 Non-breaking space is still the width of a space :P 19:28:56 YES ALL RIGHT GREGOR THANK YOU FOR BRINGING YOUR "FACTS" TO THE DISCUSSION 19:29:23 Phantom_Hoover: ENJOY BEING LOCKED IN YOUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY. 19:29:35 NOOOOO 19:29:40 WAIT YOU ARE THE ONES WITH THE FACTS 19:30:12 "Scotland does have the dubious distinction of eating even less healthily than America." 19:30:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:30:24 (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BonnieScotland) 19:30:26 Phantom_Hoover: it's a shame you're not welsh - welsh gets bonus points for appearing in a swedish word for gibberish, and I kind of like the welsh english accent 19:31:01 kaudervelsk? 19:31:32 Let me guess, that literally means "The Language of the Welsh", but its connotation is "gibberish" 19:31:34 " oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights!" <<< is what 19:32:22 oerjan: rotvälska, which might mean rootwelsh 19:32:36 i don't know if it has anything to do with welsh, really 19:32:49 nah, not really, they just both come from the same word somewhere earlier on that means foreign 19:33:30 kauderwelsch appears to be german 19:34:11 "A mixture of West Germanic and North Germanic languages spoken on the border between Germany and Denmark." 19:36:02 " In QWOP I did run (...well, "run") the hundred metres, but in GIRP I barely managed two metres." <<< i ran the 100m without cheating right? 19:36:04 i'm pretty sure 19:36:13 oklopol: Yes, I think you did. 19:36:16 oklopol: But that's you. 19:36:23 So what's GIRP? Second time I've seen it mentioned. 19:36:35 and how is that not enjoyable 19:36:40 http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html 19:36:42 It's like QWOP except you climb up. 19:36:57 (Disclaimer: it's not that much like QWOP either.) 19:37:27 i don't think it's safe to open that link 19:39:01 "That's why GIRP's score system changes over time: it'll show your distance when you start playing, but if you reach the top of the cliff (which will definitely take more than a few goes), it'll record how fast you can scamper up next time you play. Foddy says he can reach the peak in about 20 minutes." 19:39:05 Oh, so it has a goal too. 19:39:43 20 minutes of climbing? 19:39:58 that's... fucking awesome 19:40:01 He's just the game creator; I'm sure you can improve on that. 19:40:05 but maybe i'll just watch house for now 19:41:46 " oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights!" <<< is what 19:41:48 -!- augur has joined. 19:42:02 http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web04/2011/2/24/9/enhanced-buzz-17712-1298559561-22.jpg 19:42:46 :D 19:44:05 well yeah that certainly works 19:52:54 I'm still entertained when I remember the time you tried to find some sand for the Cube and ended up walking to Deewiant's from the north. 19:58:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:58:16 :-D 19:58:28 but i found the sand! admittedly that just meant i randomly bumped into a beach. 19:59:17 "C is a subset of C++" ;; wow, people actually say this. 19:59:38 I know it's incorrect, but is it just things like whether void* gets automatically cast into other types of pointers, or is there more? 20:00:18 (And that thingy that the polygot linked to by zzo38 exploited, with sizeof(char) being different) 20:08:31 There's the fact that C++ keywords (class, friend) are ordinary identifiers in C. 20:09:03 And some implicit-declaration things where you can leave prototypes out, but that's more of a bad idea. 20:09:08 http://david.tribble.com/text/cdiffs.htm 20:12:27 One thing that I don't see in Deewiant's link is that C++ forbids calling main() recursively (rationale: "the main function may require special actions"), while in C that's of course all right. 20:13:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:13:40 girp has absolutely nothing to do with qwop 20:13:41 The C++98 spec has an informative "Annex C: compatibility" which lists changes too. 20:13:55 oklopol: They're made by the same guy. 20:14:02 and have nothing in common 20:14:11 No, they have the author in common. 20:14:31 Also both are played by pressing keys on the keyboard. 20:14:33 right, and in both, there are pixels on the screen 20:14:47 The names are both 4 characters long. 20:15:04 shut up mister 20:15:06 S;DA 20:15:31 anyone happen to know how to disable the keyboard shortcut for sticky keys 20:15:47 It used to be there in the "accessibility properties" thingamajick. 20:15:52 also while you're at it, anyone know how to remove "insert" completely 20:19:16 what the fuck is the point of sticky keys anyway, is it for people who love closing processes, and only have one finger? 20:20:29 Perhaps people who have only one finger and just want to use keyboard shortcuts in general. 20:21:09 oh hmm true. and here i thought it has very little use cases. 20:22:00 It's an a11y thing anyway, they're sort-of meant for people with... difficulties. Or whatever the PC expression is. ("Accessively challenged"?) 20:22:16 oklopol, it doesn't have enough use cases to justify automatically binding it to the shift key. 20:22:50 Yes, their way to make those features more discoverable is not perhaps the best. 20:23:02 But doesn't the first-time prompt for it ask if you want to permanently disable it or not? 20:23:07 no 20:23:12 or if it does, i missed it 20:23:26 it always prompts whether i want to enable sticky keys 20:23:38 Oh, that's a bit of a silly. 20:23:46 orally. 20:24:08 The same place where you'd normally enable it (control panel/something/something) at least used to have the checkboxes that disable the automatical prompting. 20:24:32 yeah i managed to disable it 20:24:46 only took 5 minutes what with explorer crashing and all that 20:25:22 i should switch to another os, but since i'm prolly never going to do it maybe i should just stop using computers 20:25:42 oklopol, but how will you IRC with us? 20:25:49 manually 20:26:55 Whistling into a phone line? 20:27:05 i'm actually not entirely sure 20:27:44 so yeah maybe i'll need some sort of irc machine 20:28:18 Just install $minimal_os and run IRC on it. 20:28:39 Not with, like, a client. 20:28:42 -!- nelix has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:28:46 Just nc straight to Freenode. 20:33:15 I used to be able to produce a sound that caused my modem to start a handshake (normally the calling side just waits), but I doubt anyone can actually do the whistling thing, at least with anything even remotely modern modem standards. (To start the handshake you just need a close-enough match for a 2100 Hz single-frequency tone, and at least my modem wasn't very picky about it.) 20:37:40 So, in other news, Renault have become The Most Annoying Advertisers. 20:39:23 okokokokokokokokoko 20:39:26 okokokokokokokokokokokokoko 20:39:29 okokokokokokokokokoko 20:39:31 okokokokoko 20:39:33 okokokokokokokokokokokoko 20:39:34 o 20:39:36 Oh god. 20:39:47 Phantom_Hoover: You somehow opened the gates of oko. 20:39:47 It's the okocalypse. 20:40:03 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 20:40:05 okokokokokokokokoko 20:40:06 okokokoko 20:40:12 good point i have no idea what happened there 20:40:13 I'm sure it is a neurological affectation of some sort. 20:40:29 AND LO, THERE WAS BEFORE ME AN OKO HORSE 20:41:15 Phantom_Hoover: or the oklopolypse 20:41:36 olsner, hmm, that's a better name. 20:46:11 An oklopolyp is some sort of a marine thing. 20:46:32 "Did you mean: colon polyp" 20:46:40 No, Google, I did not mean that. 20:47:03 oklopol, ooh, you have a YouTube account. 20:47:12 You should totally upload something. 20:47:20 Like, you saying "oko" for ten minutes. 20:48:58 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:49:05 cpressey! 20:49:21 the plural of oklopol should be oklopodes 20:50:01 Phantom_Hoover! 20:50:12 or oklopals - as in "Oklopol and his Friendly Oklopals" 20:50:32 olsner is an expert on oklology. 20:53:15 there are videos of me and others okoing for hours 20:53:38 but i don't like publishing picture of myself 20:55:04 Oklobaba. (Cf. Napababa.) 20:55:23 if pictures of the oklo appear we'll use them to cut together a nature documentary about the shy oklopodes and their colorful and loud mating displays 20:55:31 possibly narrated by attenborough 20:56:00 olsner, "The oklopol creates a nest from a bathtub, and fills it with nutritious Cola." 20:57:17 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 20:58:26 "If its potential mate prefers Sprite, however, all his work will have gone to waste." 21:10:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:19:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 21:21:37 * Phantom_Hoover reads erowid. 21:21:43 XD at the LSD effects. 21:21:55 Positive: life-changing spiritual experiences. 21:22:08 Negative: unwanted life-changing spiritual experiences. 21:23:31 :D 21:27:58 I don't want this life-changing spiritual experience! I was quite happy being unenlightened! 21:31:47 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:37:20 you had a life-changing spiritual experience, and are now completely certain that cthulhu loves you. with a little bearnaise sauce. 21:40:22 http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1929 Bahaha 21:41:48 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:48:46 -!- cheater99 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:53:07 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 21:53:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:55:23 Phantom_Hoover implies sleep? 21:57:28 rather frequently 21:58:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:15:53 So... a language whose programs form a group (like Burro) but the group is finitely generated (unlike Burro). I almost have one... 22:17:21 By all rights it should be named "Mulo" but I don't think I like that name. 22:20:02 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:21:08 burro -> burrito? 22:21:57 burrito -> burritino? 22:23:08 -!- elliott has joined. 22:23:09 20:53:15: there are videos of me and others okoing for hours 22:23:09 20:53:38: but i don't like publishing picture of myself 22:23:10 frappy 22:23:12 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 22:23:21 o.O 22:23:35 well i don't like killing people either but i'm still not a virgin 22:23:41 -!- elliott has joined. 22:23:43 frappr that is 22:23:45 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 22:23:55 s/frapp[yr]/fappy/ 22:24:20 -!- augur has joined. 22:26:20 cpressey: sounds like it should be doable if the commands just fail to commutate enough 22:26:48 burro isn't finitely generated? 22:27:15 it has some nested construct, doesn't it 22:27:58 well i don't remember at all, i just remember it was not a group 22:28:22 i'm a pessimistic bastard ain't i 22:28:33 i should go to sleep now 22:29:06 you want to do something with lots of commutators. i think. >:) 22:30:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:30:08 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:31:38 i am reminded of that underload variant which removes () and instead uses a command that adds a single-character list containing the next one 22:31:58 that's a finitely generated monoid, at least 22:32:33 s/adds/pushes/ 22:32:51 -!- augur has joined. 22:35:27 well a finitely generated monoid is a pair containing a set S and a function * from S^2 to S such that (a*b)*c = a*(b*c) for all a, b, c in S and there is some 1 in S such that 1*a = a*1 = a for all a in S and also there exists a finite subset X of S such that {1} union X union X^2 union ... union X^n is S for some n 22:35:52 yes, Burro, being based vaguely on brainfuck, has nested conditional blocks, so not finitely generated 22:37:11 it's totally a group now though, since 2010 22:37:41 maybe i'll check if i agree omorrow 22:38:13 right now i have to do -> 22:38:25 oklopol implies right margin 22:40:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:41:07 -!- augur has joined. 22:41:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:43:15 oerjan: I don't know about commutators -- I mean I've vaguely know what the concept is, I don't know how to work with them and I'm not approaching the design of the thing by saying to myself "ok so do I have enough commands that fail to commute yet". Maybe after I've got it together I'll try looking at it that way. 22:43:57 What I've got right now is basically a reversible tag system. 22:44:35 ok 22:44:50 The inverse of matching the front of the queue and appending to the back, is (sort of) matching the back of the queue and appending to the front. 22:46:04 meanwhile -- I rock at javascript 22:46:08 * cpressey air guitar 22:46:56 wait there was no verb in that action 22:47:26 it must be quittin' time 22:47:28 * oerjan accidentally cpressey's air guitar 22:47:35 OOPS yeah 22:47:38 wheeeee 22:47:39 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:54:55 -!- TLUL has joined. 23:05:06 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:10:29 -!- Zuu has joined. 23:21:51 -!- elliott has joined. 23:21:57 THE SQL OVERLORDS ARE COMING 23:21:58 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 23:22:33 oh dear'; drop table overlords; -- MWAHAHAHA 23:28:20 Simon's hot... er, I got shot 23:31:22 ^^quote 23:31:28 erm, as in, that's a quote 23:31:40 IF YOU SAY SO 23:31:52 SimonRC: YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO 23:33:13 i suppose the chances of him responding are rather low, but that's an impressive uptime 23:33:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:33:58 What's his uptime? I don't see any such thing in whois 23:34:56 -!- augur has joined. 23:35:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.