←2011-03-30 2011-03-31 2011-04-01→ ↑2011 ↑all
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00:46:19 <oerjan> apparently they got elliott
00:57:27 <Sgeo> Dear God, I'm now talking about statistics, trying to find statistical evidence in my little God tester
01:02:35 <Sgeo> What significance level should I use?
01:02:49 <Sgeo> 1/100 sounds safe, I think
01:07:31 <elliott> hi oerjan
01:07:39 <elliott> i'm back now.
01:07:40 <oerjan> 'morning
01:07:53 <oerjan> good to see you escaped your horrible fate
01:08:15 <elliott> if only.
01:08:21 <elliott> oerjan: the underload question is:
01:08:32 <elliott> what code X does either (whichever is easiest to implement):
01:08:54 <elliott> (a)(b)(c)1X == (a)(c)(b) and (a)(b)(c)2X == (b)(c)(a)
01:09:01 <elliott> where a number is a smith numeral
01:09:01 <elliott> OR
01:09:11 <elliott> ((a)(b)(c))1X == ((a)(c)(b)) and the same for the other
01:09:14 <elliott> or even
01:09:16 <elliott> ((a)(c))(b)
01:09:22 <oerjan> wtf did we call it smith again
01:09:47 <elliott> = church numerals :D
01:09:50 <elliott> that aren't really church numerals
01:09:51 <elliott> you know
01:09:53 <oerjan> i know that
01:10:16 <oerjan> i just forgot if there was a rationale for "smith" specifically
01:10:22 <elliott> alex
01:10:26 <oerjan> ah
01:10:34 <elliott> you should have said "whytf", i got all confused :D
01:10:46 <oerjan> HAH
01:11:09 <oerjan> hm ok so you want c in the middle always
01:11:29 <elliott> oerjan: er.
01:11:32 <elliott> oerjan: it's actually just pick
01:11:35 <elliott> it has to work for N elements :)
01:11:43 <elliott> (although N can be fixed at "compile time", if it really must be)
01:11:59 <oerjan> pick? don't you mean roll in that case
01:12:15 <elliott> pick as in "pick Nth element out"
01:12:24 <elliott> where N is TOS
01:12:31 <elliott> this is for a switch statement, btw
01:12:33 <oerjan> i think pick usually leaves the original element there
01:13:17 <oerjan> elliott: in case you have paid any attention my recent programs, i recommend using a (a)(!b)(!!c)(!!!d) structure
01:13:32 <elliott> oerjan: that would be acceptable. (this is for a basic->underload compiler)
01:13:42 <elliott> basically every line is an element in it
01:13:43 <oerjan> and then use (!)n^
01:13:50 <elliott> and to goto, you get the right code on top
01:13:51 <elliott> and ^
01:14:02 <elliott> oerjan: the structure has to be preserved, though
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01:15:07 <oerjan> ((a)(!b)(!!c)(!!!d)) -> ((a)(!b)(!!c)(!!!d))c is just :!^, for example
01:15:11 <oerjan> er
01:15:21 <oerjan> * :^!^
01:15:38 <elliott> ah
01:15:48 <elliott> oerjan: i'm open to better ideas for goto btw :)
01:16:12 <oerjan> well _i've_ been using a lot of state machines
01:16:12 <elliott> oerjan: the reason i want it on the stack is for computed goto, so you can implement call as a macro
01:16:21 <elliott> well that's what this is, essentially
01:16:23 <elliott> the state is the line
01:17:39 <oerjan> elliott: you might want to read how my lookup tables work in the minimization section programs
01:17:46 <elliott> I'll take a look
01:18:52 <elliott> "Rate this page
01:18:52 <elliott> Please take a moment to rate this page."
01:18:55 <elliott> okay wikipedia!
01:19:04 <oerjan> the 110 automaton also uses a similar idea, although not as clear since it has three sets of simultaneous data
01:19:05 * elliott just did it to tick the "I am highly knowledgeable about this topic" box
01:19:12 <oerjan> (that's where i used it first)
01:22:07 <elliott> oerjan: it occurs to me that implementing a functional language might be easier :D
01:23:06 <oerjan> perhaps.
01:23:39 <elliott> right, your lookup tables look useful
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01:46:34 <elliott> impomatic has a knack for getting on proggit
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02:13:53 <Gregor> Must find people to help me buy libc.so ...
02:14:03 <Sgeo> How's the auction going
02:14:24 <Gregor> Effectively not started yet, but at $180 >_>
02:14:55 <Sgeo> Huh?
02:14:57 <elliott> Gregor: I'll fucking give you money if it'll shut you up ;D
02:15:04 <elliott> Also I demand five emails, since clearly you are needy.
02:15:13 <Sgeo> By "at $180" do you mean that's how much you're putting in when it starts?
02:15:23 <Gregor> Sgeo: At $180 I mean it's at $180 :P
02:15:37 <Sgeo> So what do you mean by "effectively not started yet"?
02:15:40 <Gregor> 's not my $180, I haven't bid anything substantial yet, I'm waiting 'til the auction is a bit more ... "mature"
02:15:43 <Gregor> It's in day three.
02:16:18 <elliott> Gregor: SNIPE IT
02:16:29 <Gregor> elliott: Sniping is not possible.
02:16:35 <elliott> Gregor: Ohright, you said.
02:16:42 <elliott> Gregor: Does it have eBay-style maximum bids though?
02:16:49 <Gregor> Also known as "proxy bidding"
02:16:49 <Gregor> Yes
02:16:50 <elliott> Or does it always show the honest-to-god current top bid?
02:16:59 <Gregor> Proxy bidding.
02:17:11 <elliott> Right.
02:17:20 <elliott> Gregor: Yer fucked :P
02:17:39 <Gregor> I've got a chance, though I've moved from "neutral" to "pessimistic"
02:18:44 <elliott> Why do OSDev communities always have a significantly stupider population than >_< ... I say this, but actually most online programming communities are even stupider...
02:18:45 <Gregor> Mind you, if it was a corporation, it'd already be quite clear that I'm fekked.
02:19:05 <elliott> Gregor: Unless they're a REALLY POOR corporation.
02:19:15 <elliott> Gregor: Bid as "Gregor INCORPORATED" so everyone else gets scared off!
02:19:23 <variable> elliott: probably because the stupid people are the ones who say "I'm going to write MY OWN os"
02:19:29 <elliott> variable: yeah :(
02:19:31 <Gregor> The auctioning pattern of a corporation in a proxy-bid auction: Bid once. Done.
02:20:02 <elliott> variable: Compatible with Windows, MAC, and OpenVMS V7.1!
02:20:16 <elliott> Gregor: XD
02:20:50 <elliott> Gregor: I wondered for a second why eBay doesn't stop sniping themselves, but then I realised that'd drive everyone away because people are idiots >_>
02:21:18 <elliott> (Sniping is still effective, of course, because of LOL PSYCHOLOGY making people willing to pay more as they get outbid.)
02:21:24 <elliott> *effective in a proxy sodfhsdfsd,
02:23:15 <elliott> "Hello,
02:23:15 <elliott> I'm new in the world of "Operating Systems"
02:23:15 <elliott> I'd like to learn about programming a Operating System.
02:23:15 <elliott> What do you recommend me?"
02:23:30 <Gregor> "Don't"
02:23:30 <Gregor> :P
02:23:58 <elliott> "Writing OS in Assembly (BTW: I'm Crazy)"
02:24:03 <elliott> "[...]
02:24:06 <elliott> phillid (the nut who codes in assembly) :P"
02:24:15 <elliott> Obnoxious but not an idiot, right?
02:24:17 <elliott> "- How do I have variables in assembly? Do I have to write to memory addresses and use several of them as variables?
02:24:17 <elliott> - How do I store-up input from the user (using int 0x16) in a variable (or address)?
02:24:18 <elliott> - How do I perform conditional IF statements? All I have found is '%IF' which is only for the compiler to run."
02:24:19 <elliott> WRONG
02:25:02 <Gregor> ... wow
02:25:39 <variable> elliott: he obviously thinks of assembly the same way as a higher level language
02:25:54 <variable> I wouldn't say "completely and totally idiotic" but "wholly uninformed"
02:26:01 <elliott> variable: I wouldn't laugh at someone who has misconceptions (well ok, maybe a little). It's the ego.
02:26:08 <variable> elliott: Ah, I see.
02:26:19 <elliott> If you have such self-admitted ignorance, don't plaster statements about how you're this 1337 asm-coding nutcase on your post :P
02:26:35 <variable> elliott: oh - I didn't realize it was the same person
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02:26:45 <elliott> variable: yep :)
02:27:49 <variable> elliott: I teach programming to a lot of people. I've learned long ago that the best way to teach is to get the student to formulate some idea of *how* things work - even its its wrong. I usually ask them how they would do it. They think of something that may or may not work - but is interesting and work from that conception slowly molding it to how things actually work.
02:28:04 <elliott> I'm way too impatient to teach :)
02:28:49 <lament> you're too impatient even to stay in the channel
02:28:55 <elliott> "Kolibri is a small x86 assembler hobby operating system. It forked off MenuetOS in 2004 and has mostly been developed by ex-USSR community since." ;; Who the heck identifies as a "ex-USSR community" if you're formed in 2004...
02:29:06 <elliott> lament: Vorpal is a taxing man
02:29:15 <lament> elliott: lots of people
02:29:23 <Gregor> kolibri.su
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02:35:10 <Sgeo> What's wrong with MenuetOS?
02:36:33 <lament> it exists
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03:05:07 <ch2> S Q L
03:08:06 <elliott> ch2: DO THAT LOGGING JIG
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03:15:40 <_MERLiN_> ?
03:15:53 <elliott> !
03:16:05 <oerjan> .
03:16:14 <elliott> /
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03:28:58 <elliott> oerjan: say hi to the bot
03:29:23 <Sgeo> Hi _MERLiN_
03:34:10 <oerjan> hi ch2
03:34:22 <elliott> ch2 says hi.
03:34:30 <elliott> ch2 is unfortunately too hardcore to reply itself.
03:34:36 <elliott> But it has logged your kindness.
03:34:39 <oerjan> ic
03:34:48 <elliott> ch2: SQL SQL SQL
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03:35:37 <elliott> oerjan: if you listen carefully you can hear it sqling
03:40:56 <Sgeo> .....I called _MERLiN_ a bot...
03:40:58 <Sgeo> :/
03:44:25 <_MERLiN_> I am not a bot
03:44:47 <elliott> ch2 is the bot :P
03:44:55 <_MERLiN_> :P
03:45:02 <_MERLiN_> I was just AFK watching some TV
03:45:10 <elliott> welcome
03:45:15 <_MERLiN_> Thanks
03:45:23 <elliott> are you on the wiki?
03:46:39 <_MERLiN_> I dont think so
03:46:47 <_MERLiN_> what wiki?
03:46:52 <elliott> the esoteric programming language wiki
03:46:55 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:47:11 <_MERLiN_> dont think i ever heard of it :P
03:47:38 <elliott> (this channel is about esoteric programming languages like brainfuck and INTERCAL, btw, not any other sense of "esoteric")
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03:48:54 <elliott> <elliott> (this channel is about esoteric programming languages like brainfuck and INTERCAL, btw, not any other sense of "esoteric")
03:48:56 <elliott> if you got disconnected
03:49:03 <_MERLiN__> I got DCed
03:49:16 <_MERLiN__> lol
03:49:42 <_MERLiN__> I do SQL, C++, Java, C#, VB.NET, PHP, HTML and CSS
03:50:09 <Sgeo> _MERLiN__, now consider learning languages that you would not use on the job.
03:50:19 <elliott> well some of those are certainly...esoteric
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03:51:02 <_MERLiN__> lol
03:51:05 <_MERLiN__> yea
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03:51:45 <elliott> Disconnect1010: hello ... no wait you're not cpressey
03:51:50 <_MERLiN_> lol
03:51:53 <elliott> he's sbcglobal.net too though
03:51:53 <_MERLiN_> Whats up
03:51:57 <elliott> the sky
03:51:58 <_MERLiN_> He is ok
03:52:05 <_MERLiN_> I know that guy ;)
03:52:08 <elliott> oh
03:52:42 <_MERLiN_> Whats up DC?
03:53:50 <_MERLiN_> hmm
03:53:52 <_MERLiN_> so
03:54:02 <_MERLiN_> what are you working on elliott
03:54:09 <elliott> Uh. ch2.
03:54:13 <_MERLiN_> with your so sweet esoteric languages
03:54:21 <elliott> Nothing in an esolang right now.
03:54:42 <_MERLiN_> I see
03:54:51 <_MERLiN_> Well I hope that all foes well for you ;)
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04:17:18 <impomatic> So this is what #esoteric looks like at 05:16am!
04:17:29 <elliott> INDEED
04:17:53 <elliott> I'm going to bed far too late, I'm going to guess that you're getting up far too early.
04:18:00 <elliott> Circle of life!
04:18:37 <_MERLiN_> its only 11:18pm here :P
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05:34:39 <elliott> hi JaysonKaz
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05:48:01 <quintopia> can anyone tell me how to compute the probability that an asymmetric 1-D random walk returns to the origin?
05:48:33 <quintopia> let's say 73% chance of +1 and 27% of -1
05:49:46 * oerjan just recalls that it's 1 for 50%
05:52:24 <oerjan> i think it was discussed here before though
06:03:49 <lifthrasiir> quintopia, you mean the probability of a random walk "eventually" returning to the origin?
06:04:00 <quintopia> yes
06:04:30 <quintopia> i know it's strictly less than one, but i confuse myself when i try to compute it
06:04:59 <elliott> it's -4
06:05:06 <quintopia> oh okay
06:05:11 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
06:05:11 <elliott> so i just explained @ to someone and now my fingers have died of overexertion @_@
06:05:13 <quintopia> hello elliott. it's late.
06:05:21 <elliott> quintopia: yes! 7 am!
06:05:27 <elliott> very very late night
06:05:34 <quintopia> i assume you are awake because of the explaining
06:06:05 <elliott> let's just say: yes, despite the fact that this is a: lie
06:06:58 <oerjan> quintopia: calculate the probability that it ever reaches -1
06:07:05 <elliott> your MOM is -1
06:08:31 <oerjan> then in the same way the probability that it ever reaches 1
06:08:54 <elliott> then add the two and divide by love
06:09:12 <oerjan> then use those to calculate the answer
06:09:21 <oerjan> elliott: well close :D
06:09:27 <quintopia> oerjan: actually the probability it reaches -1 is the number i really want
06:09:32 <elliott> love is the best number imo
06:09:39 <elliott> quintopia: calculate the probability that it ever reaches -2
06:09:44 <elliott> then in the same way the probability that it ever reaches 0
06:09:47 <elliott> then use those to calculate the answer
06:09:50 <elliott> oerjan: am i doing it right
06:09:58 <oerjan> quintopia: oh. that's actually simpler than re-reaching the origin.
06:10:11 <quintopia> is it?
06:10:14 <quintopia> how do?
06:10:16 <oerjan> yes.
06:10:46 <elliott> oerjan: I'M SORRY THAT WAS FUNNY?
06:11:22 <oerjan> there are two ways of reaching -1. either immediately, or going right immediately, and then eventually going left, twice. this should give you an equation which you can solve.
06:11:41 <quintopia> okay
06:11:45 <elliott> i like the generality oerjan is approaching this with
06:11:47 <quintopia> the latter one sounds compicated
06:12:04 <elliott> "First, find the various factors that combine to form the answer to the problem. Then, find the way in which they are combined. This should give you an equation which you can solve."
06:12:11 <quintopia> aka, it looks like it has "probability of returning to origin" as a case in it :P
06:12:29 <oerjan> note that the probability of "eventually going left" from any point == probability of reaching -1 from 0
06:12:48 <elliott> oerjan is ignoring me :D
06:12:58 <oerjan> quintopia: yes, but only the case of returning to origin when you already know you are at 1
06:12:59 <quintopia> oerjan: but it's not the same
06:13:07 <quintopia> how is that different?
06:13:12 <quintopia> that's just as hard
06:14:02 <oerjan> quintopia: aka the probability of eventually going left.
06:14:20 <quintopia> uh, yes
06:14:29 <quintopia> and also the probability of getting back to 1 before you do that
06:14:34 <quintopia> halp
06:15:35 <oerjan> sheesh
06:15:39 <quintopia> there are lots of ways to construct binary strings such that until the last couple of digits, there have been more 1s than 0s so far
06:15:46 <oerjan> it's a recursive equation, of course.
06:15:55 <quintopia> oh
06:16:03 <quintopia> hmm
06:17:06 <quintopia> something i could presumably use the Master theorem to solve
06:17:42 <oerjan> note "recursive" here means the probability is written in terms of itself, there's no actual recursive _function_ involved
06:18:53 <oerjan> unless you overcomplicate things
06:19:57 <quintopia> oh aha
06:23:28 <quintopia> i got the probability of never making it to -1 as 5329/8029 for the above probabilities. look right?
06:23:39 <oerjan> um
06:23:42 <elliott> xD
06:23:46 <elliott> that's an impressive probability
06:24:05 <oerjan> i didn't actually expect it to be _rational_. let me see...
06:24:14 <quintopia> it's 1-p where p=.27+.73*p*.27
06:24:53 <oerjan> oh. i don't think that's right.
06:25:00 <quintopia> where'd i mess up
06:25:07 <oklopol> "<quintopia> something i could presumably use the Master theorem to solve" xD
06:25:35 <elliott> oerjan: you just want everything to be irrational!
06:25:37 <elliott> HAHAHAHIUHSDkjgkhfg.hljg
06:25:38 <elliott> l
06:25:48 <oerjan> quintopia: instead of "eventually going left, twice", you are "eventually going left" once and then immediately going left.
06:25:51 <quintopia> oklopol: it's 2:25am. feel free to laugh all you want.
06:25:53 <oerjan> i think.
06:26:19 <oklopol> quintopia: no i'm not laughing at you, i'm laughing because *you're stupid*
06:26:20 <oklopol> i mean
06:26:22 <oklopol> with you
06:26:30 <elliott> :D
06:26:35 <quintopia> oklopol: agreed.
06:26:41 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> quintopia: no i'm not laughing at you, i'm laughing because *you're stupid* <oklopol> i mean <oklopol> with you
06:26:45 <HackEgo> 343) <oklopol> quintopia: no i'm not laughing at you, i'm laughing because *you're stupid* <oklopol> i mean <oklopol> with you
06:26:48 <elliott> `quote
06:26:49 <elliott> `quote
06:26:49 <elliott> `quote
06:26:49 <elliott> `quote
06:26:50 <elliott> `quote
06:26:50 <HackEgo> 291) <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
06:26:50 <HackEgo> 68) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
06:26:50 <HackEgo> 83) <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
06:26:51 <HackEgo> 98) <Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
06:26:52 <quintopia> maybe i should sleep and look at it again tomorrow when i'm less stupid
06:26:52 <HackEgo> 162) <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
06:27:34 <oklopol> i have a great idea
06:27:43 <oklopol> i'll be really fucking obnoxious about math all day
06:27:45 <oklopol> unlike usually
06:27:46 <oklopol> "<oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)" <<< xD what a retard
06:27:59 <elliott> oklopol: please do, it'll be amazing
06:28:00 <elliott> thx
06:28:07 <elliott> <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
06:28:08 <elliott> third??
06:28:10 <elliott> thath isn't even a number!
06:28:28 <oklopol> I DECIDE WHAT'S NUMBER OR NOT
06:28:33 <oklopol> NOT U
06:29:11 <quintopia> oerjan: so the problem is i might eventually go left multiple times before i finally go left twice, yes?
06:29:26 <elliott> Vorpal: hello
06:29:44 <oerjan> quintopia: um... i guess you could put it like that
06:30:04 <quintopia> aka, go from 1 to 0 many times before going to -1
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06:30:30 <oerjan> yes. but you really only need to consider the _first_ time you go from 1 to 0.
06:30:41 <oklopol> so the probability q of eventually going left satisfies the equation q = l + r*q^2 right
06:30:46 <oerjan> the rest is going from 0 to -1, eventually.
06:30:57 <quintopia> ohhhh
06:31:03 <quintopia> oklopol: laugh at me again
06:31:12 <oklopol> quintopia: why?
06:31:16 <oklopol> i would never do that
06:31:21 * oerjan swats oklopol for revealing the equation -----###
06:31:49 <oerjan> i was _trying_ not to spoonfeed a finished solution here...
06:31:50 <quintopia> it should have been p=.27+.83*p^2
06:31:52 <oklopol> well probability questions are kind of stupid unless the measure is given
06:32:00 <oklopol> oerjan: i actually realized that just before saying
06:32:02 <oklopol> but was too late
06:32:17 <oklopol> i haven't really been reading all that carefully
06:32:38 <quintopia> oerjan: it's all right. i purposefully ignored oklopol's comment so i could work it out myself
06:33:00 <oklopol> but yeah then it's easy to see 0 -> 0 from that
06:33:04 <oklopol> but how about the 2d case
06:33:17 <oklopol> with 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 distribution, the probability should be 1
06:33:38 <oerjan> yay
06:34:06 <quintopia> oerjan: problem. there are two solutions for p in [0,1] >.>
06:34:26 <oerjan> oklopol: interesting, maybe it helps breaking it into quadrants or something?
06:34:38 <oerjan> quintopia: one of them might be 1 perhaps?
06:34:42 <quintopia> no
06:34:49 <oerjan> huh.
06:35:00 <quintopia> 0.4ish and 0.8ish
06:35:28 <elliott> what's the probability that a random walk in six dimensions is stupid
06:35:58 <quintopia> for random walks in dim>2 the probability of returning the the origin is <1 (zero perhaps)
06:36:09 <oklopol> quintopia: you could explicitly calculate the probability that it returns in 7000000 steps, if it's more than 0.5, you're done
06:36:19 <oklopol> quintopia: 0.3 or something in 3d
06:36:30 <quintopia> hmm
06:36:32 <quintopia> weird
06:36:34 <oklopol> with uniform distribution
06:36:36 <oklopol> not really
06:36:39 <oklopol> it's never 0
06:36:40 <oerjan> quintopia: um should .83 be .73 up there
06:36:47 <oklopol> see it can always return right away
06:36:47 <quintopia> ...yes
06:36:51 <oklopol> which is not that unlikely
06:37:09 <quintopia> but it's weird that it should be .3 or something
06:37:15 <quintopia> just a strange number
06:37:28 <oerjan> quintopia: um you did calculate with .73 did you?
06:37:55 <quintopia> haha, no. i changed it to .73 and this time one of the solutions is 1. phew
06:38:36 <oklopol> is there a specific reason why there should just be 1 answer?
06:38:40 <oerjan> good. 1 nearly has to be a solution for this kind of trick.
06:38:43 <quintopia> (the other one is 27/73, strangely enough. now it makes sense that 50/50 probability gives you a return probability of 1!)
06:38:49 <oklopol> okay what oerjan said i guess
06:39:03 <oklopol> quintopia: oh cool, is that always true?
06:39:13 * oklopol gives homework
06:39:27 <oerjan> hm indeed so it _is_ rational
06:40:10 <quintopia> oklopol: l+r*(l/r)^2 where l+r=1
06:40:13 <quintopia> solve it
06:40:22 <quintopia> see if it comes up l/r
06:40:47 <quintopia> (i thinkamebbe yes)
06:40:50 <oerjan> quintopia: hm wait there's something weird about that, the solution the _other_ way cannot be 73/27 :D
06:41:12 <quintopia> not sure what you're saying there
06:41:21 <oklopol> l+r*(l/r)^2 = l + l(l/r) = l(r + l)/r = l / r
06:41:41 <oerjan> quintopia: if it's l/r in general then that should hold even if l is _larger_ than r, which is impossible
06:41:53 <oerjan> oh wait hm
06:42:18 <quintopia> in that case the probability series diverges
06:42:27 <oklopol> what does that mena
06:42:28 <quintopia> and the probability of hitting -1 becomes 1
06:42:28 <oklopol> *mean
06:42:30 <oerjan> maybe it's simply that then it's the 1 solution which is correct
06:42:33 <oerjan> right
06:42:35 <oklopol> yeah
06:43:29 <oklopol> although it does seem like god gave us an easy way out
06:44:01 <elliott> you know hwo else gave us a way out
06:44:03 <elliott> hitler
06:44:10 <oerjan> <quintopia> for random walks in dim>2 the probability of returning the the origin is <1 (zero perhaps) <-- cannot be zero unless the single step probabilities are zero, there is always _some_ chance of going an exact path back
06:45:01 <oklopol> yes, so that's actually true in all groups
06:46:53 <oklopol> so in 2d, we at least know that with probability 1, every row is returned to
06:47:08 <oklopol> so umm
06:47:17 <oklopol> maybe that doesn't really help at all
06:47:39 <oklopol> the point is exactly to investigate the relation between returns
06:47:41 <oklopol> on axes
06:47:57 <oklopol> and by "the point", i'm not sure what i mean
06:48:38 <oerjan> maybe you could look at the probability that it returns to a subsquare
06:48:49 <oklopol> a finite square?
06:48:54 <oerjan> yeah
06:49:02 <oerjan> centered on the origin
06:49:24 <oklopol> i was thinkng more, for a half-plane, we could solve with which probabilities it returns to each cell on its border
06:49:49 <quintopia> oerjan: or inside a L1 circle of the origin
06:49:49 <oklopol> thinking
06:50:06 <oerjan> the thing here is we need the distribution for how much it jumps between each time it crosses an axis
06:50:19 <oerjan> and that could be complicated
06:50:53 <oklopol> well i was thought you might be able to solve that similarly to the 1d case by using some serious magix
06:51:01 <oklopol> oh
06:51:19 <oklopol> no sorry that was not for what you said, it was what i thought you said
06:51:44 <quintopia> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/9116/conditions-for-2d-random-walk-to-return-to-origin oshit fourier transforms
06:51:57 <oerjan> L1 circle, that's a diamond shape
06:53:40 <oklopol> okay enough fucking around, i should go do math
06:53:44 <quintopia> lol
06:53:54 <quintopia> "no more math, it's time for math"
06:54:01 <oklopol> :D
06:54:20 <oklopol> well yeah but math i suck less at
06:54:32 <quintopia> what math is that
06:55:08 <oklopol> well i'm going to do graph theory today, but it's just for a course
06:55:16 <quintopia> oh okay
06:55:22 <oklopol> mostly i do navigation theory for automata, and cellular automata
06:55:24 <quintopia> maybe you should polish your fingernails instead
06:55:31 <quintopia> that graph theory will do itself later
06:55:52 <oklopol> good idea
06:59:51 <elliott> food is awesome
07:00:36 -!- ch2 has joined.
07:00:36 <ch2> S Q L
07:00:39 <elliott> we missed you too, ch2
07:19:59 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vODFxYg I find taskbars to be... inadequate.
07:20:15 <elliott> I like how it can't even fit an ellipsis in there.
07:20:38 * elliott turns on window grouping.
07:21:03 * elliott tries to make it exactly like the Windows 7 taskbar, because dammit that thing is good.
07:22:26 <olsner> at least it would be if windows had reasonable icons
07:22:53 <elliott> olsner: true, but when using windows i severely restrict the set of software i use, so that hasn't given me a problem :)
07:23:13 <olsner> all of the windows icons look either like a folder with some crud on top, or a stylized window that looks exactly like every other "stylized window" icons
07:23:23 <olsner> at least the built-in stuff
07:23:27 <elliott> unfortunately X11 is far too unsemantic to allow me to make it *exactly* like the windows 7 taskbar in that it ignores the windows and just shows a big list of tabs when i click :(
07:23:40 <elliott> OTOH, that list would be impossibly huge
07:23:57 <elliott> how did I ever get by with 1336x768?
07:24:13 <elliott> sorry, *1366
07:24:17 <olsner> just define a new X11 protocol for communicating sets of tabs to taskbars
07:24:29 <elliott> olsner: i'm not ubuntu, i can't extend X11 effectively :D
07:25:15 <elliott> olsner: honestly though, emphasising the icons over the text is a good idea, when was the last time you looked at the window titles in your taskbar?
07:25:45 <olsner> I wonder what it'd be like if you had your own dedicated support and development team and could just tell them that you want some random feature and they'd fix it
07:26:00 <elliott> olsner: That would be a world where @ exists.
07:26:04 <elliott> did you mean me specifically or just in general :D
07:26:16 <elliott> i'm just kidding, @ wouldn't exist in that world, i couldn't let them create something so important
07:26:16 <olsner> just in general :D
07:26:18 <elliott> they'd do it WRONG!!!!!
07:26:40 <elliott> olsner: it'd be like being mark shuttleworth, i suspect :D
07:27:25 <elliott> 24.
07:27:52 <olsner> emphasizing icons is good, and I'd say Mac gets that right... I guess mostly because big, useful and vectorized icons have been possible and expected for long enough
07:28:23 <elliott> ubuntu does not like it when you resize its panel: http://ompldr.org/vODFxaA
07:28:41 <olsner> and windows 7 got the "showing icons are great!" part but missed the part where you have good icons to show
07:28:51 <elliott> excuse me, lol screenshot is the current topic
07:29:06 <elliott> the problem with OS X's dock is
07:29:12 <elliott> it's perfectly good for choosing the application
07:29:17 <elliott> but gets you nowhere for choosing the window inside
07:29:37 <olsner> hmm, I think it does nowadays
07:29:48 <elliott> you mean if you hold it down?
07:29:56 <elliott> sure. it feels like an eternity.
07:30:23 <olsner> at least I remember seeing a menu with the windows, dunno exactly how I got it :)
07:30:31 <elliott> holding down
07:30:34 <elliott> now that opens an expose-type thing
07:30:36 <elliott> rather than a menu
07:30:37 <olsner> not right-clicking?
07:30:39 <elliott> also right clicking
07:30:39 <elliott> yeah
07:30:44 <elliott> holding down used to always = right clicking
07:30:47 <elliott> but apple don't give a shit about consistency
07:30:53 <elliott> they also changed the colour of the menus of the dock items in snow leopard
07:30:55 <elliott> just because, you know
07:30:56 <elliott> fuck you
07:31:25 <elliott> wow, my panel is now animated.
07:31:32 <elliott> it is spazzing out because it can't place the number of window icons it wants.
07:32:00 <olsner> :)
07:32:20 <elliott> fuck it, it stays at default size.
07:32:46 <elliott> computers are so inadequate :(
07:33:15 <olsner> computers are just missing the software to make them useful
07:33:34 <elliott> olsner: it's not like the hardware is perfect either :)
07:33:50 <olsner> w/e :)
07:34:05 <elliott> hmm, maybe i'll just put this window list button in some Fittsy place and remove the selector entirely.
07:36:39 <elliott> i should try out wmii or ratpoison or ion, maybe they can keep track of my thousands of windows
07:40:53 <elliott> really i should just replace ubuntu altogether, but getting linux installed on this is a massive time investment
07:42:50 <elliott> ah, look at that. i'm hating everything again!
07:43:21 <olsner> you bitter old man
07:43:28 <elliott> olsner: i know :(
07:43:45 <elliott> olsner: i wonder if i was made like this so that i would be forced to either complete @ or commit suicide
07:44:20 <elliott> my experiences with linux on this machine have reaffirmed that buying apple hardware is a bad idea, despite the hardware itself being excellent >_<
07:46:24 <elliott> mmm, consuming food is a thing that is good ... i have to take /some/ pleasure while grumping out
07:46:32 <elliott> oerjan: you should be the one grumping out, not me.
07:47:34 <olsner> norwegian can only express cheerfulness, so I don't think they know how to do grumpy
07:48:03 <olsner> I guess they could in english though
07:48:07 <elliott> no. i know oerjan as a profoundly grumpy man.
07:48:20 <elliott> btw this gives norwegians are better reputation than finns
07:48:21 <elliott> who are just weird
07:48:24 <elliott> and boring
07:48:27 <elliott> err
07:48:28 <elliott> than swedes
07:48:29 <elliott> god
07:48:29 <elliott> no
07:48:30 <elliott> i love finns
07:48:32 <elliott> it's swedes that suck
07:48:34 <elliott> olsner: you're lame.
07:48:38 <elliott> (this is mostly vorpal's fault)
07:49:18 <olsner> did you mean *I'm* lame or just that swedes are lame?
07:49:26 <elliott> swedes. i gather you're one?
07:49:47 <olsner> yah, just like Vorpal
07:50:18 <elliott> "
07:50:19 <elliott> • xmonad has:
07:50:19 <elliott> • ±100% test coverage core functions and
07:50:19 <elliott> data structures"
07:50:24 <elliott> "±100%" ftw
07:50:25 <elliott> *wtf
07:50:27 <elliott> this better not catch on
07:50:47 <olsner> -100% test coverage!
07:51:06 <elliott> what happened to ~, that's one of the best characters
07:51:10 <elliott> i just put ~ in front of anything i'm not certain about
07:51:15 <elliott> "yeah, blahblah is ~stable"
07:51:16 <elliott> it's great
07:53:35 <olsner> hmm, time to go
07:53:45 <elliott> but go WHERE???
07:53:47 <elliott> the afterlife?
07:54:46 <olsner> no, to work :)
07:55:01 <elliott> that's upsettingly logical
07:55:02 <elliott> :(
07:55:06 <elliott> i hate logic.
07:55:13 <olsner> sorry for making sense :(
07:55:37 <elliott> olsner: it's ok, apology accepted
07:55:46 <elliott> happiness resumes
07:56:10 <olsner> maybe I'll just go where the going will have gone me
07:56:18 <elliott> ...yes
07:56:26 <elliott> i give you the elliott medal in coherency
07:58:21 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: you should be the one grumping out, not me. <-- hey i don't have to grumping loudly all the time do i...
07:58:38 <elliott> we are excelling grammar in these last statements few
08:00:43 <elliott> :D
08:06:01 <oerjan> oh, *be
08:07:44 <elliott> oerjan: xD
08:07:45 <elliott> :slowpoke:
08:08:04 <elliott> oerjan: i'm afraid we now require a recording of you saying "hey i don't have to grumping loudly all the time do i..."
08:08:21 <elliott> hey i could rebind my caps lock key to the window manager control key. that is a thing i could do.
08:08:30 <oerjan> once again, saved by my lack of a microphone
08:08:43 <elliott> oerjan: i'll just ask oklopol for your address and send one there
08:08:49 <elliott> at least i think oklopol said he knew your address at one point
08:08:54 <elliott> point is, expect microphone.
08:09:04 <elliott> it will be addressed to "O. Er Jan"
08:17:57 <elliott> maybe what i need is a program that closes windows at random whenever i have more than five
08:18:22 <oerjan> there's probably a market for that.
08:21:19 <elliott> what is taking up half both my cpus...
08:21:19 <elliott> oh well
08:21:36 <elliott> $ free -m
08:21:36 <elliott> total used free shared buffers cached
08:21:37 <elliott> Mem: 3699 3667 32 0 5 111
08:21:37 <elliott> -/+ buffers/cache: 3550 149
08:21:38 <elliott> what the fuck
08:21:54 <elliott> chrome, why are you eating my ram
08:22:01 <elliott> eh i guess it's like
08:22:02 <elliott> shared stuff
08:22:18 <elliott> i need an all-powerful computer
08:23:32 <fizzie> htkallas 11846 0.3 2.9 6127828 115692 ? Sl Mar25 27:01 /usr/lib/firefox-3.6.16/plugin-container /usr/local/lib/libflashplayer.so 11698 plugin
08:23:43 <fizzie> 6 gigabytes is a rather impressive virtual memory size.
08:24:44 <elliott> :D
08:25:00 <elliott> but wait
08:25:08 <elliott> that free -m sticker will take into account like shared stuff i guess
08:25:16 <elliott> so chrome is actually eating all my ramen (plural of ram) :(
08:25:19 <elliott> (a la boxen)
08:29:58 <oerjan> clearly that's because chrome is all spaghetti code copypasta
08:30:22 <elliott> harf darf
08:39:06 <elliott> anyone have logs of 9-13th december 2002?
08:39:19 <elliott> fizzie's logs start slightly after the big bang.
08:46:56 <elliott> oh wait!
08:46:59 <elliott> there is dec 09 logs.
08:47:10 <elliott> --- Log opened Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002
08:47:13 <elliott> ok CLOSE ENOUGH
08:47:19 <elliott> oerjan: let's luahg at fizzie for being awake at the 7 ams
08:49:34 <elliott> [19:52:30] < navigator> i'm in pine, slrn, bitchx, emacs (for notes), four ttys that vary between emacs, wget, lynx and gcc/gdb, tty9 is sendmail -q ; fetchmail -a, tty10 is slrnpull, 11 is mpg123 and 12 a root console (wvdial etc)
08:49:35 <elliott> a time when wizards spoke in codes
08:52:03 <fizzie> Around that time I was doing my "civil service" thing (we have this conscription thing + alternatives) in a place where I needed to be at... 08:30am, maybe? Something like that.
08:52:54 <elliott> fizzie: perhaps you are dumb? oklopol has so far applied his intelligence to magically avoid doing that
08:53:03 <elliott> i am unfamiliar with the details, but i think they involve genius in some manner
08:53:14 <elliott> at least this is the impression I received.
08:53:19 <elliott> yawn
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:25:18] < navigator> hey
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:26:06] < fizzie> welcome back, or something.
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:26:36] < navigator> did an indyone drop by?
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:26:48] < fizzie> umm, no.
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:26:53] < fizzie> actually absolutely nothing happened.
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:27:10] < navigator> ok
08:53:51 <elliott> oh wait
08:53:56 <elliott> thought that was sgi indy
08:53:59 <elliott> was gonna be all
08:54:00 <elliott> hey fizzie
08:54:05 <elliott> how often do random computers drop by you
08:55:10 <fizzie> It's rather easy to postpone that thing up until the age of 28.
08:55:29 <elliott> oh. well oklopol is like 12
08:55:35 <elliott> so yeah i guess it's only a matter of time
08:55:54 <fizzie> And it's not *incredibly* difficult to manage to avoid it completely, or so I hear.
08:55:59 <fizzie> For example by being medically unfit.
08:56:06 <fizzie> Or psychologically unfit, I guess.
08:56:33 <elliott> or just lazy
08:56:47 <elliott> "oh, work, uh, i don't really wanna do that?, sounds difficult"
08:57:46 <fizzie> "Hullun paperit", i.e. "certificate of craziness", is the usual term of getting an official excuse due to mental health issues.
08:58:07 <elliott> of craziness :D
08:58:20 <elliott> btw fizzie it's really cringing me here where you say that $_[0] is looking in the $_ array which is the default input
08:58:22 <elliott> i mean
08:58:24 <elliott> in some perl code in this log
08:58:29 <elliott> it's quite impolite to be wrong in the past
08:58:29 <elliott> :/
08:58:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> • ±100% test coverage core functions and <-- typo? stupidity? joke? something else?
08:58:46 <fizzie> I have been wrong many, many times.
08:59:01 <elliott> Vorpal: just bad usage of charrrs ;(
08:59:06 <elliott> fizzie: please don't be :(
08:59:06 <Vorpal> ah
08:59:17 <elliott> Vorpal: btw you know how you set envbot did some horrible horrible crap to do return vars?
08:59:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm currently trying to come up with a context where ±100% would make sense. Some really inexact measurement perhaps?
08:59:54 <fizzie> Also it's possible to just say "I'm not doing your military service, and I'm not doing the civilian service alternative either", after which you get thrown in jail; but the vast majority of those sentences are served in "open prisons" where you can do a quasi-normal life for the duration.
09:00:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: btw you know how you set envbot did some horrible horrible crap to do return vars? <-- yes
09:00:13 <elliott> Vorpal: lol() { ret=hello }; recvr() { local ret; lol; echo $ret }; ret=hi; recvr; echo $ret
09:00:14 <elliott> outputs:
09:00:15 <elliott> hello
09:00:16 <elliott> hi
09:00:21 <elliott> Vorpal: so you can already do returns, with evil.
09:00:27 <Vorpal> hm
09:00:28 <elliott> (evil being "sh's fucked up scoping")
09:00:36 <Vorpal> elliott, ret is a fixed name there though
09:00:38 <elliott> Vorpal: you can extend this to take the return variable:
09:00:41 <elliott> lol() {
09:00:50 <elliott> eval \$$1=hello
09:00:51 <elliott> }
09:01:00 <elliott> recvr() { local ret; lol ret; echo $ret }
09:01:05 <elliott> in fact I think you could abstract that out
09:01:06 <fizzie> Amnesty International classifies our in-jail conscientious objectors as "prisoners of conscience"; I think at least at some point we were the only EU country with any of those.
09:01:10 <fizzie> Something to be proud of.
09:01:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yep. However eval scares me so I used printf -v "$1" hello for the same effect
09:01:29 <elliott> Vorpal: but that's what eval is _for_ :)
09:01:35 <elliott> Vorpal: but did you do that local trick then for the return?
09:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I used local in the caller I believe
09:01:54 <elliott> return() { local var=$(shift); eval \$$var=\$*; }
09:02:01 <elliott> lol() { return $1 hello }
09:02:04 <Vorpal> hah
09:02:08 <elliott> recvr() { local ret; lol ret; echo $ret }
09:02:10 <elliott> think that should work
09:02:16 <Vorpal> elliott, however if the variable ret happens to be a local variable in lol() as well you are fucked :P
09:02:41 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm, clearly we need something that makes up a variable name for you.
09:02:47 <elliott> Vorpal: does sh have "uplevel"?
09:02:52 <elliott> i.e.: eval this code in the scope of my caller.
09:03:04 <Vorpal> Not that I know of.
09:03:20 <elliott> hmm.
09:03:23 <elliott> ok well here's an idea
09:03:29 <Vorpal> elliott, one way would be to use a global variable. Since I wouldn't recommend recursion in shell script anyway it is probably just fine ;)
09:03:42 <Vorpal> well, exec recursion would be fine
09:03:59 <elliott> return() { ____return=$*; }
09:04:03 <Vorpal> heh
09:04:11 <Vorpal> elliott, forgot the quotes there
09:04:13 <elliott> wait for it
09:04:14 <elliott> Vorpal: nope
09:04:18 <elliott> Vorpal: variable assignment is special
09:04:27 <elliott> it doesn't get reinterpreted in command context
09:04:28 <Vorpal> hm... right
09:04:42 <Vorpal> haven't been doing shell scripting for quite a while
09:04:51 <elliott> let() { local ____return var=$(shift); "$@"; eval \$$var=\$____return }
09:04:54 <elliott> then
09:04:56 <Vorpal> well apart from basic stuff
09:04:57 <elliott> test() {
09:04:59 <elliott> local foo
09:05:01 <elliott> let foo lol
09:05:01 <elliott> }
09:05:06 <elliott> BEHOLD THE HORROR
09:05:06 <Vorpal> well,*
09:05:19 <Vorpal> elliott, wait what, let?
09:05:26 <Vorpal> why
09:05:28 <elliott> yes. is that name already taken?
09:05:36 <elliott> Vorpal: to avoid the already-used-local-name issue :D
09:05:39 <Vorpal> elliott, let exists yes. Does math
09:05:45 <elliott> oh. how logical.
09:06:20 <Vorpal> elliott, like: let resultvar 2+4
09:06:26 <elliott> oh. how logical.
09:07:14 <Vorpal> elliott, in *bash* you can use one of these though: resultvar=$((2+4)) or (( resultvar = 2+4 ))
09:07:22 <Vorpal> unless I misremember
09:07:24 <elliott> uh is $(()) not posix?
09:07:34 <Vorpal> elliott, hm possibly
09:08:14 <Vorpal> as I said, it was quite a while since I did anything more advanced than simple automation in bash.
09:08:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
09:09:02 <Vorpal> what
09:09:12 <Vorpal> that is one messed up sleep schedule
09:09:26 <Vorpal> unless he moved to another country recently
09:10:18 <elliott> dude
09:10:22 <elliott> does your memory leak like a sieve
09:10:29 <elliott> you KNOW oerjan is on the standard 25-hour sleep schedule
09:10:33 <elliott> i have pointed it out to you several times
09:10:36 <Vorpal> elliott, ah right
09:10:43 <Vorpal> I thought he was trying to fix it?
09:10:50 <elliott> why would anyone want to do such a thing as that
09:11:15 <elliott> he has the perfect life, get up, irc and math, make lots of puns, then sleep when you get tired
09:11:19 <elliott> also, fjords
09:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well... employers tend to have rather pronounced views about not getting to work when they expect you to.
09:11:41 <elliott> now to look at how much an old thinkpad costs on on ebay so that the prospect of installing linux again on this macbook air doesn't hurt as much
09:11:54 <elliott> Vorpal: oh come on, you _know_ oerjan doesn't work :)
09:12:10 <elliott> ebay is a ghost town. or maybe, the things i search for are ghosts.
09:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so what/who pays his bills?
09:12:21 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you searching for then?
09:12:32 <elliott> thinkpads! i didn't actually check before searching, there is actually things here
09:12:34 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, so what/who pays his bills?
09:12:40 <elliott> dunno, ask him, that's a personal question :P
09:12:45 <Vorpal> true
09:13:08 <elliott> i do gather norway is one of those civilised countries with welfare
09:13:10 <Vorpal> elliott, a new thinkpad isn't *that* expensive. Unless you go for a w700ds or whatever the model name was.
09:13:14 <elliott> whatever the term is these days.
09:13:28 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but i don't want a new one. they're all widescreen.
09:13:47 <elliott> and uglier :)
09:14:02 <elliott> "5x IBM Thinkpad T41 Spares Parts Job Lot #230"
09:14:05 <elliott> image is of it booting
09:14:09 <Vorpal> elliott, eh? Don't they look about the same still? Black slab kind of look. And still matte screens
09:14:11 <elliott> wonder if they just wiped the hd by mistake
09:14:18 <elliott> Vorpal: the design has changed to be more ugly :
09:14:19 <elliott> :D
09:14:30 <elliott> 1 turns on but has a smashed screen but i can vaguely see that it is managing its way into the bios
09:14:30 <elliott> 1 turns on and goes into the bios, the display has a red tint which gradually fades
09:14:30 <elliott> 1 has no screen and no power
09:14:30 <elliott> 2 turn on but display nothing both screens look undamaged but no guarantees as they havent been tested
09:14:41 <elliott> "All are missing batterys, HDD\'s and HDD caddys unless otherwise stated "
09:14:47 <elliott> what a bargain.
09:15:06 <elliott> "IBM T42 Thinkpad Laptop - 1.7Ghz / 1Gb Ram / DVD / WiFi" £119. who the fuck is going to pay £119 for that?
09:15:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway most thinkpads (probably excluding the w700ds again) will have rather bad colour reproduction. They are business machines after all. Same goes for the built in speakers. Other than that they will be better than most other brands.
09:15:44 <elliott> i just want something that lets me install linux on it over and over again without crying :D
09:16:03 <elliott> this is mostly just to shut my inner voice up, i'll break down and see about getting some other distro to work on this soon.
09:16:07 <elliott> but it's a scary prospect.
09:16:19 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the issue with getting it to run on the macbook?
09:16:24 <Vorpal> I don't remember
09:16:30 <elliott> Vorpal: everything :)
09:16:39 <elliott> the macbook air is picky about what it boots. beyond that, drivers drivers drivers.
09:17:04 <elliott> the hardware is perfect, everything else about this machine sucks :(
09:17:21 <Vorpal> elliott, it was a brand new model then iirc? With Linux, support tends to improve over time.
09:17:38 <elliott> Vorpal: well it was a few months old. and mostly similar to the previous model and macbook pros.
09:17:42 <elliott> mostly similar = basically identical
09:17:43 <Vorpal> hm
09:17:45 <elliott> "Don't waste your time.
09:17:46 <elliott> These systems are fast. They boot up 57% faster, and they shut down in 5 seconds." --lenovo.com
09:17:50 <elliott> WOW!!! SHUTS DOWN IN 5 SECONDS!!
09:18:00 <elliott> here i am thinking that systems should _boot_ in 5 seconds
09:18:11 <elliott> but no. shutting down: that is what we do on our laptops.
09:18:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I assume that means windows 7 will at most take 5 seconds to shut down. No matter what
09:18:22 <Vorpal> including when installing a service pack
09:18:24 <elliott> someone call mythbusters
09:18:45 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, does it say 57% faster *than what*
09:18:48 <elliott> http://www.lenovo.com/images/products/professional-grade/thinkpad/x-series/960x430_hero_x201.jpg wow, they managed to make the x series ugly :/
09:18:53 <elliott> it's meant to be a slab, not a... flob :(
09:18:58 <elliott> Vorpal: than the previous model, i guess
09:19:04 <Vorpal> right
09:19:07 <elliott> "Epic battery life" are you serious
09:19:12 <elliott> i thought this was a business machine
09:19:16 <elliott> yeah, fuck getting a new one :D
09:19:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that link: what is wrong with that?
09:19:28 <elliott> Vorpal: that looks like a slab to you?!
09:19:34 <elliott> it's got ridges and twiddles up the wazoo.
09:19:48 <elliott> compare: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2141/2271406891_a51f3320e7.jpg
09:19:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean the palm rest looks curved?
09:19:58 <elliott> yes. and the switches.
09:20:15 <elliott> ughh, i forgot thinkpads have the fn key in a stupid place
09:20:19 <elliott> oh well
09:20:25 <Vorpal> elliott, same as macs have?
09:20:29 <elliott> yes :)
09:20:37 <elliott> it makes ctrl incredibly awkward to press
09:20:39 <elliott> i have to curl my pinky
09:20:47 <elliott> or, more often, move my hand so my thumb is over it
09:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, come on, you get used to it fairly quickly. I have no problems reaching either key
09:20:59 <elliott> pressing ctrl is still a pain imo
09:21:04 <elliott> "IBM Lenovo ThinkPad keyboard trackpoint tip nipple hat"
09:21:05 <elliott> nipple hat :D
09:21:13 <Vorpal> is that from lenovo?
09:21:17 <Vorpal> if so wtf
09:21:18 <elliott> no, ebay
09:21:20 <Vorpal> ah
09:21:21 <elliott> "hi and welcome to my auction
09:21:21 <elliott> this advert is for spare parts from a IBM THINKPAD I SERIES TYPE 1161
09:21:21 <elliott> Do not use the buy it now as you will not recieve anything!!!"
09:21:26 <elliott> buy it now price: 99p
09:21:32 <elliott> GREAT WAY TO LOOK CHEAP, FUCKER
09:21:38 <elliott> i should hit buy it now
09:21:41 <elliott> and demand they give me the parts
09:21:44 <elliott> thanks to ebay's TOS
09:21:59 <elliott> 99p to irritate some sleazy dbag: worth it??
09:22:16 <elliott> also dear god. what happened to people being able to type and spell.
09:22:19 <elliott> fff
09:22:22 <Vorpal> elliott, did you see that line from a combat report in df I posted yesterday?
09:22:31 <elliott> yes, actually just today i lost it when itw as first said
09:22:34 <elliott> but yes, in logs yes.
09:23:01 <elliott> it was...yeah.
09:23:41 <Vorpal> elliott, btw there is a column on the health overview screen for sensor nerves and one for motor nerves. Presumably your dwarfs can get damage to those.
09:23:44 <elliott> hmm hmm window managers hmm
09:24:01 <elliott> using ion3 until the sun goes cold would maximise my old-fartiness.
09:24:17 <Vorpal> hm
09:24:31 <elliott> otoh, ratpoison or wmii or xmonad is probably a better choice :P
09:24:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess that depends on what you want. You could use that port of the plan9 window manager I guess
09:24:56 <Vorpal> never tried it on X
09:25:01 <Vorpal> probably a disaster
09:25:10 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i want something automatic. i decided that traditional window management is unusable for me after creating the following scene without realising it: http://ompldr.org/vODFxYg
09:25:16 <elliott> also, I've used it, it's ... fine
09:25:16 <elliott> i mean
09:25:19 <elliott> it's exactly like plan 9's wm
09:25:34 <elliott> i never thought of rio as the greatest part of plan 9 ever so, yeah, it's... not that interesting
09:25:35 <Vorpal> elliott, quite. But it lacks the rest of plan9 around it.
09:25:48 <elliott> less talking about plan 9, more gawping at how my taskbar couldn't even fit an ellipsis in :D
09:25:56 <Vorpal> so I was thinking interactions with windows would work less well in the port
09:26:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: no, i want something automatic. i decided that traditional window management is unusable for me after creating the following scene without realising it: http://ompldr.org/vODFxYg <-- chrome has tabs I think
09:26:16 <elliott> Vorpal: funny man.
09:26:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i open new windows according to a proprietary trade secret algorithm
09:26:32 <Vorpal> right
09:26:36 <elliott> (i open new windows when i feel like they would disrupt my tabs :D)
09:26:44 <Vorpal> elliott, and I instead have three rows of tabs in firefox.
09:26:49 <elliott> Vorpal: having all that in one window would be... interesting
09:26:51 <elliott> it would be about 10 rows.
09:27:07 <elliott> anyway i like to have pages BEHIND other pages that i can just click to, my browsing isn't really optimised for efficiency
09:27:14 <elliott> just to maximise the amount of things i can do to get more things to appear
09:27:18 <Vorpal> elliott, right. I seldom reach that. Firefox has a great built in feature to help you keep the tab count lower than that
09:27:23 <Vorpal> it is called "lagging to hell"
09:27:29 <elliott> yeah, that's quite a feature
09:28:06 <elliott> Vorpal: i have a feeling tiling wms might not work for me either though :/
09:28:13 <elliott> which is why i was thinking ratpoison, that's more a ... hiding wm
09:28:24 <Vorpal> never used it
09:28:27 <elliott> out of sight, out of mind, still taking up two thirds of your ram
09:28:34 <elliott> Vorpal: basically it doesn't automatically tile
09:28:39 <elliott> it just replaces the current frame with the new one when you create/focus
09:28:44 <elliott> and all tiling is manual if you really want it
09:28:54 <elliott> it's like screen for x :P
09:28:57 <elliott> in fact it's exactly screen for X
09:29:19 <fizzie> I know a person (whose nick matches the regexs /^inei/ and /ros$/) who -- instead of bookmarks or even a horrible set of tabs -- keeps a huge set of pages in "restore previous session" prompt windows, *nested* something like eight levels deep.
09:29:32 <elliott> that... :D
09:29:35 <elliott> nested.
09:29:35 <Vorpal> elliott, so... everything is a full screen app unless you really really want to do some arcane key strokes to split the screen?
09:29:39 <elliott> i can't believe that even works fizzie
09:29:44 <elliott> Vorpal: "arcane"; it's like C-t h or something
09:29:51 <elliott> but yes. like gnu screen
09:30:00 <fizzie> elliott: I couldn't believe it either, and apparently it broken down quite badly when the nesting level got to high single-digits.
09:30:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't know you could have more than one set of tabs to be restored...
09:30:12 <elliott> fizzie: we need screenshots of this. blurred if necessary.
09:30:20 <Vorpal> unless it isn't firefox?
09:30:22 <elliott> Vorpal: presumably he just kills firefox with the restoring thing still open
09:30:25 <elliott> so that it counts as a tab to restore
09:30:30 <elliott> then he can restore that tab to see more
09:30:35 <elliott> i'm in awe
09:30:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was Firefox, yes; and you can only have them by forcibly terminating it so that there's still the restore-session tab pending.
09:30:46 <elliott> :D
09:30:50 <Vorpal> oh my
09:30:58 <elliott> ineiros: can...can i come to finland and see the horror
09:31:05 <elliott> oops i pinged him ;D
09:31:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm sure there is some sort of extension to do this more cleanly...
09:31:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I thought it quite bizarroid too.
09:32:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, so you can get a restore session tab listed in the restore session tab? How.... weird...
09:32:52 <elliott> :DDD
09:32:53 <elliott> this is the best
09:33:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I assume reaching one from the innermost nesting level will be quite messy
09:33:03 <elliott> i'm surprised it doesn't like
09:33:11 <elliott> open with a blank list
09:33:15 <Vorpal> yeah
09:33:16 <elliott> i'm surprised it keeps that list with it
09:33:42 <fizzie> Manufactured example: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/restore-restore.png
09:34:09 <fizzie> It would be even nicer if it'd expand the "restore session" in that list so that you'd get a tree-like thing.
09:34:23 <elliott> Embarrassing indeed.
09:34:29 <fizzie> But it indeed kept the list; I got my original set of tabs back.
09:34:31 <elliott> I hope ineiros feels the embarrassment every time he uses it.
09:34:42 <elliott> fizzie: Please inform me of how ineiros came to use such an insane system.
09:34:54 <elliott> Did he just kill Firefox one day with a restore session thing open, re-opened it and went "oh hey, this is convenient"?
09:35:12 <fizzie> I think he had to flatten out the thing after Firefox went into some sort of "closing a tab takes 15 seconds" mode due to all the... something.
09:35:17 <Vorpal> I wonder if df has some way to quickly jump to a specific z level. Some sort of bookmark or such. Considering that it's sub-surface is much deeper than minecraft the scrolling with > and < can get tedious when you need to control activities near surface and mining very deep at the same time
09:35:21 <elliott> Something indeed.
09:35:21 <fizzie> I don't know the genesis of the awesome, unfortunately.
09:35:37 <elliott> Vorpal: But then you couldn't have the Room Outside of Space!
09:35:48 <Vorpal> elliott, err?
09:35:51 <elliott> fizzie: That awesome WM thing you use, can it do tabbing?
09:35:59 <elliott> Vorpal: cf. Boatmurdered (or was it Syrupleaf? It was one of them!)
09:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, okay. I looked a bit at them, but I haven't read the whole things. So quick summary perhaps?
09:36:29 <Vorpal> of the room
09:36:47 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a room that's ~impossible to find due to having no paths to it.
09:36:53 <Vorpal> right
09:37:08 <Vorpal> elliott, you can still find it by just going through each z level though
09:37:15 <fizzie> elliott: There's a lua extension called "tabulous" that adds some sort of tabbing thing, but I haven't tried it out.
09:37:51 <Vorpal> elliott, and if anyone is in it, you can just bring up the unit screen (u), select the unit (arrow keys), then focus on it (c).
09:38:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, what wm do you use btw?
09:38:12 <fizzie> Not sure if I'd really recommend Awesome; it's not my favouritest thing ever. I just can't be motivated to switch again.
09:38:13 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, you can still find it by just going through each z level though
09:38:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Awesome.
09:38:16 <elliott> There were ridiculous numbers of them.
09:38:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
09:38:39 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, the thing ended with the single remaining living dwarf in the Room Outside of Space.
09:38:46 <Vorpal> elliott, some 200 or so I'd guess? Probably more if there are mountains on the map.
09:38:49 <elliott> Vorpal: With enough food to last for quite a while.
09:38:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It never actually ended.
09:39:01 <Vorpal> I have about 200 I *guess* and I'm in fairly flat terrain
09:39:04 <elliott> Also, remember that there's still the x/z to traverse.
09:39:27 <Vorpal> elliott, true, but there is a overview map in one pane (can be enabled/disabled with tab)
09:39:33 <elliott> Vorpal: (The single remaining dwarf, that is, after the two stats-are-completely-off-the-charts megadwarves were put in a room to battle it out to the death.)
09:40:07 <elliott> (It ended with the now-armless HolisticDetective (I think?) BITING Nemo to death.)
09:40:28 <elliott> And then HolisticDetective I think died on account of having very few limbs.
09:40:36 <Vorpal> elliott, hm that remaining dwarf... if it stayed alive until the next wave of immigrants...
09:41:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I think everyone was quite sick of the fortress at that point :P
09:41:05 <Vorpal> oh and I think mixed climate embarkments are bugged
09:41:22 <Vorpal> warm climates should not freeze during winter. Temperate should
09:41:23 <elliott> When you not only have a massive superweapon that you activate, but then ALSO build a TRIBUTE to those who died in its activation which ITSELF is an even BIGGER superweapon, and then activate THAT...
09:41:33 <elliott> I think they won Dwarf Fortress :P
09:41:37 <Vorpal> my fort is just over a boundary. However the whole map does freeze
09:42:44 <elliott> man... i think i've never made so many links in my life
09:42:51 <elliott> (i'm reading over the explanation of @ I wrote)
09:43:07 <elliott> ok it's only 12 links. but it looks like more.
09:45:33 <elliott> fizzie: You should have used this font on that CRT you overclocked: http://www.timeguy.com/cradek/01128220822
09:45:35 <elliott> (YES, OVERCLOCKED)
09:45:52 <elliott> https://github.com/patrickhaller/no-wm ;; maybe i'll just ditch WMs entirely
09:49:03 <elliott> i suppose i should get a desktop.
09:49:09 <elliott> can't use this laptop all the time.
09:49:14 <elliott> well can. but.
09:50:16 <Vorpal> you could attach screen, keyboard and monitor to it
09:50:25 <Vorpal> elliott, besides, what about your imac?
09:50:29 <elliott> <Vorpal> you could attach screen, keyboard and monitor to it
09:50:38 <Vorpal> oh wait, was it the air?
09:50:40 <Vorpal> forget it then
09:50:51 <elliott> that's true. it would become a desktop with a moderate amount of ram, a slow-ish cpu, not much disk space (albeit ssd),
09:50:57 <elliott> and with a painful installation process for linux
09:51:06 <elliott> not that appealing, the 13" screen doesn't bother me :)
09:51:28 <elliott> Vorpal: the imac is ok but it suffers the same linux-hatred problem and it's ... really pretty damn slow
09:51:31 <elliott> it's five years old, after all
09:51:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you very quickly get used to larger screen sizes. 24" is nice. Lots of space for stuff
09:51:52 <elliott> well i used a 20" with the imac and that's pretty big if you ask me :)
09:52:02 <elliott> but actually i've adapted fine to smaller screens. it's the dpi.
09:52:44 <elliott> Vorpal: and ofc a too-large screen is pretty unergonomic.
09:52:59 <elliott> as well as annoying: maximised browser window on too-large screen = long text line is long
09:54:54 <Vorpal> of course, but a large screen mean I don't have to maximise the browser window
09:56:01 <elliott> Vorpal: and with a tiling wm? :)
09:56:12 <Vorpal> hm
09:56:21 <elliott> i mean you can't always have enough auxiliary windows to pollute your screen with to make it size out right.
09:56:26 <elliott> arguably you should be able to like
09:56:27 <elliott> have padding
09:56:32 <elliott> but it's hard to figure out how to make that work smoothly
09:56:38 <Vorpal> true
09:56:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't use a tiling one however. I'm boring and just use metacity
09:57:02 <elliott> yes, well, metacity is failing me :)
09:57:12 <elliott> Vorpal: now watch as i unravel what i really want in a wm, and end up with @
09:57:33 <Vorpal> how unexpected :P
09:57:46 <elliott> :(
09:57:47 <elliott> it's my burden.
09:58:06 <elliott> no but, there is no way i will get @ written without a comfortable linux setup to do it in.
09:58:42 <elliott> Vorpal: btw the fact that i am small and short influences my taste in monitors :D
09:58:52 <elliott> 24" would literally be bad for my neck.
09:59:12 <Vorpal> fair enough
09:59:19 <ineiros> elliott: I have the problem that I open far more tabs than I can actually read or "process" correctly. Sometimes it happens that Firefox crashes when I have 150 tabs open, 10 of which are Youtube. Then I just want to quickly check some page, it sometimes happens that I leave the "Restore session" there for another day.
09:59:41 <elliott> fizzie: I feel like you may have exaggerated this "10 levels deep restore session organisation" thing.
09:59:42 <ineiros> elliott: And sometimes this happens two, three, four or more times in a row. :P
09:59:44 <elliott> Oh.
09:59:47 <elliott> :P
09:59:59 <elliott> ineiros: It's probably Flash doing the crashing.
10:00:04 <elliott> It's an exceedingly crashy piece of software.
10:00:06 <Vorpal> and I'm large and need to put my 24" at the max height the monitor stand can extend to make it comfortable :P
10:00:06 <ineiros> elliott: And then I suddenly have a total of ~1000 tabs waiting for me in ~10 layers.
10:00:11 <elliott> I think there's an about:config thing to sandbox all plugins that you might want to try.
10:00:16 <Vorpal> to to*
10:00:22 <ineiros> elliott: Yes, mostly Flash. It's now disabled in my Firefox.
10:00:32 <elliott> Like I've said before, there needs to be a browser that makes no distinction between tabs and history.
10:00:45 <elliott> Recent stuff is on the bottom (sidebar list), older stuff is further up.
10:00:48 <elliott> Stuff gets unloaded automatically.
10:01:22 <elliott> Vorpal: i wonder how small they make ips displays :)
10:01:27 <Vorpal> har
10:01:35 <elliott> that was only barely a joke
10:01:41 <elliott> although ips is a bit out of my price range :D
10:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, so you want that sort of colour reproduction?
10:02:09 <elliott> well it doesn't feel right to be able to change the colour of something by dragging it to the bottom of my screen.
10:02:30 <Vorpal> elliott, then just forget thinkpad :P
10:02:31 <elliott> also tn displays tend to be made crappily in general IME :)
10:02:37 <elliott> Vorpal: that's a laptop :P
10:03:08 <elliott> maybe i'll get a vt100.
10:03:10 <elliott> and just use that.
10:03:15 <elliott> connect to a VAX with it.
10:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, my TN desktop monitor doesn't do heavy colour shifting
10:03:29 <elliott> when i have problems with my internet connection, call up tech support
10:03:33 <elliott> "go to control panel" "what?"
10:03:34 <Vorpal> and it's an Asus
10:03:35 <elliott> "move your mouse to"
10:03:38 <elliott> "i don't have a mouse"
10:03:44 <elliott> "...ok, press the windows key on your keyboard"
10:03:51 <elliott> "i don't have one of those. do you mean F994?"
10:04:04 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably they mean the blinken lights control panel :P
10:04:07 <elliott> "...sir, what computer do you use?"
10:04:13 <elliott> "oh um, it's an 11/750."
10:04:16 <elliott> *click*
10:04:27 <elliott> (vax model number shamelessly stolen from wikipedia)
10:04:52 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:05:37 <elliott> another idea for that tabs=history browser: when you move away from a tab, it hides it and holds it ransom for 24 hours
10:07:22 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
10:08:21 <Vorpal> elliott, how would this work with ajaxy stuff?
10:08:29 <elliott> specify further
10:08:34 <elliott> things like gmail encode it into the url nowadays
10:08:37 <elliott> so reloading is harmless
10:08:42 <Vorpal> okay hm
10:08:57 <elliott> it'd only unload a tab if you don't click it for like hours
10:08:58 <Vorpal> elliott, what about stuff like bank websites. Where you want to close everything when you log out.
10:09:07 <elliott> sure, you can Ctrl+W
10:10:51 <fizzie> Terminals are nice.
10:11:07 <fizzie> The VT510 I had at one point could do a 50-line 132-column thing.
10:11:16 <fizzie> Also a hardware status line.
10:11:45 <fizzie> And a built-in terminal-side calculator thing with line-drawing graphics. (It could paste the result as if you typed it.)
10:12:43 <Vorpal> that reminds me of computer connected bar code scanners. Often they just act like keyboards
10:12:53 <Vorpal> to the computer that is
10:13:18 <elliott> interfaces suck. environments suck. society sucks. people suck. things suck.
10:13:19 <elliott> woop
10:13:20 <elliott> there we go
10:13:23 <elliott> at the top of the stack
10:13:30 <elliott> tomorrow I'll be back down at the bottom and not even know it
10:13:38 <elliott> until the suck starts again
10:14:28 <Vorpal> I wonder how practical magma forges would be in real life. Probably not very
10:15:19 <elliott> completely!
10:15:49 <elliott> maybe i really should buy a vax
10:15:53 <elliott> and release @ for vax only
10:16:01 <Vorpal> elliott, why vax
10:16:11 <Vorpal> why not some other unusual system
10:16:13 <elliott> Vorpal: they have a lot of instructions, so i can pick only the ones i like, and use those.
10:16:26 <Vorpal> elliott, CISC or RISC?
10:16:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very CISC.
10:16:45 <Vorpal> ouch
10:16:48 <elliott> It *inspired* RISC because of how many goddamn instructions it had.
10:16:52 <Vorpal> heh
10:17:00 <elliott> (And most of them were slower than doing their effect by hand :P)
10:17:07 <Vorpal> elliott, come on a lot of RISC have lots of instructions
10:17:11 <elliott> Vorpal: (Literally, VAX is basically what caused RISC to be created :P)
10:17:33 <elliott> fucking hell i don't mean vax the vacuum cleaners google
10:17:37 <elliott> let fucking google sgjdkjfsghldfg
10:18:06 <Vorpal> elliott, the thing about RISC is that they are really load-store architectures. Sometimes with a lot of instructions.
10:18:13 <elliott> Vorpal: can't find a figure of how many instructions a vax had
10:18:15 <elliott> but it was a lot :D
10:18:35 <elliott> Vorpal: it would be fun to have an ISA where it read like VLIWs
10:18:40 <elliott> and every VLIW was a small functional program
10:18:45 <elliott> taking in registers and spitting out new ones, or something
10:19:01 <Vorpal> I suspect it would be even slower than IA64
10:19:41 <elliott> itanium isn't exactly slow
10:19:47 <elliott> it's popular in dem soopercomputers
10:19:54 <elliott> well.
10:19:56 <elliott> dem "enterprizes"
10:20:17 <Vorpal> elliott, you remember that it become a commercial failure due to lack of performance?
10:20:22 <elliott> Vorpal: yes. itanium 1
10:20:25 <elliott> itanium 2 is much faster
10:20:28 <Vorpal> right
10:20:31 <elliott> hmm, an itanium desktop would be fun
10:20:34 <elliott> Vorpal:
10:20:36 <elliott> Vorpal: An Itanium-based computer first appeared on list of the TOP500 supercomputers in November 2001.[34] The best position ever achieved by an Itanium 2 based system in the list was #2, achieved in June 2004, when Thunder (LLNL) entered the list with an Rmax of 19.94 Teraflops. In November 2004, Columbia entered the list at #2 with 51.8 Teraflops, and there was at least one Itanium-based computer in the top 10 from then until June 2007. The pe
10:20:36 <elliott> ak number of Itanium-based machines on the list occurred in the November 2004 list, at 84 systems (16.8%); by June 2010, this had dropped to five systems (1%).[72]
10:20:38 <Vorpal> elliott, they should have called it something else than itanium then
10:21:06 <Vorpal> hm
10:22:59 <elliott> i need to get @ bootstrapped :(
10:23:10 <elliott> i.e. write a full interpreter in asm and then write a full compiler in that language. bleh.
10:23:17 <elliott> the first bit, is the bit I don't look forward to.
10:23:27 <elliott> also i need the persistence layer at the same point.
10:23:54 <Vorpal> elliott, why not do it in another language than asm? You could cross compiler for that in a high level language?
10:24:19 <elliott> Vorpal: like what? name a high-level language with a compiler that spits out freestanding machine code that will plug in to other asm cleanly
10:24:41 <elliott> heck, even dropping the high-level requirement, the only player is C, and even that's not perfect. plus, you know, writing interpreters in C isn't a piece of cake either
10:25:03 <Vorpal> elliott, better than x86 asm I'd say
10:25:21 <elliott> yeah. but x86 asm is at least more "fun".
10:25:39 <elliott> i suppose i could bootstrap an implementation on linux, then somehow port that over. but that actually sounds very painful.
10:25:44 <Vorpal> elliott, that is fun as in the redirect from fun on the df wiki to the article about losing :P
10:26:31 <elliott> no, no, it's winning. writing interpreters in freestanding x86 asm is exactly what charlie sheen would do in this situation.
10:26:48 <elliott> lol #@ is a channel :D
10:27:00 <elliott> -ChanServ- Founder : vr
10:27:00 <elliott> -ChanServ- Registered : Sep 04 18:06:23 2004 (6 years, 29 weeks, 5 days, 16:20:20 ago)
10:27:00 <elliott> -ChanServ- Last used : Mar 14 17:08:56 2007 (4 years, 2 weeks, 3 days, 17:17:47 ago)
10:27:00 <elliott> :<
10:27:52 <Vorpal> elliott, if you do a group registration you could probably take it over :P
10:28:00 <elliott> yesssssssssssssssssssssssssss
10:28:07 <elliott> that sounds productive and worthwhile, who wants to be my groupie
10:28:08 <elliott> i mean
10:28:09 <elliott> group partner
10:28:15 <Vorpal> XD
10:32:39 <elliott> number of chrome windows just decreased by one to 24
10:32:42 <elliott> celebrate everybody!
10:33:02 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc firefox 4 allows you to group tabs or something.
10:33:09 <elliott> sounds lik ework
10:33:11 <elliott> *like work
10:33:55 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 150K 2011-03-31 11:33 logs.sqlite3
10:33:55 <elliott> oops.
10:33:59 <elliott> accidental copy-paste.
10:34:01 <elliott> you saw nothing.
10:34:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Copy cat of fizzie eh?
10:34:23 <elliott> nope
10:34:26 <fizzie> We saw your user name.
10:34:36 <Vorpal> we saw that you used sql
10:34:47 <elliott> ch2: did anything happen? I think that nothing happened.
10:34:51 <fizzie> SQLite in particular.
10:35:50 <elliott> oh now this will horrify Vorpal
10:35:50 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sSnLmJN78
10:38:47 <elliott> I wonder if that That Bassett Disaster guy is anyone from here...
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10:42:35 <elliott> Vorpal: You saw nothing, k?
10:42:41 <elliott> NOTHING
10:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw that line
10:42:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 150K 2011-03-31 11:33 logs.sqlite3
10:42:54 <elliott> NOTHING
10:42:57 <elliott> YOU SAW NOTHING
10:42:59 <Vorpal> elliott, what was it about?
10:43:20 <elliott> $ wc -l visor.c
10:43:20 <elliott> 387 visor.c
10:43:20 <elliott> FUCK my hands keep slipping
10:43:24 <Vorpal> I mean, sure a mispasted line, but why are you acting like this about it
10:43:53 <Vorpal> elliott, also I don't believe that. You said "<elliott> FUCK my hands keep slipping" the same second as those two lines above it
10:43:53 <elliott> TRADE SEC- i mean NOTHING
10:44:10 <elliott> Vorpal: THEY SLIPPED OUT "FUCK MY HANDS KEEP SLIPPING" TOO!!!!!
10:44:12 <elliott> IT'S OUT OF CONTROL!
10:44:16 <Vorpal> which is just improbable if you realised *after*
10:46:52 <elliott> Hmm. @ actually can't compile EVERYTHING at execution time.
10:48:43 <Vorpal> elliott, of course not. The compiler itself needs to be pre-compiled. Or run by an interpreter during boot (possibly made to compile itself, then switching over to that compiled one)
10:48:56 <elliott> The compiler and the persistence layer, to be precise.
10:49:16 <elliott> An interpreter isn't an option; the language will evolve with the system, and like hell am I going to keep an asm interpreter up to date with an Advanced Compiler(TM).
10:49:16 <Vorpal> elliott, probably also the memory allocation, but that may be in the persistence layer
10:49:24 <elliott> What memory allocation?
10:49:41 <elliott> If you just mean "how to decide what parts of disk to cache in memory", then yeah, persistence layer.
10:49:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well, allocating buffers for DMA for example.
10:49:59 <elliott> If you mean "how objects are allocated in the abstract address space to be persisted on disk", well, that's just part of the object model.
10:50:06 <elliott> Which is part of the runtime.
10:50:09 <elliott> Which is tied to the compiler.
10:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean when using DMA for the network card and so on
10:50:29 <Vorpal> elliott, or buffers for other hardware communication
10:50:35 <elliott> Right. Well, it's not like DMA things will be freed very often. :P
10:50:47 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't USB do DMA?
10:50:56 <Vorpal> I know firewire does
10:51:02 <Vorpal> sadly firewire is mostly dead
10:51:02 <elliott> Maybe. But the precompiled code isn't going to be using DMA.
10:51:14 <Vorpal> and SATA definitely uses DMA
10:51:15 <elliott> Its only job will be to compile the startup code and execute that.
10:52:02 <elliott> Vorpal: re: firewire: THUNDERBOOOOOLT
10:52:04 <Vorpal> elliott, besides even for things that don't use DMA you still need buffers quite often. Stuff like buffers for TCP communication.
10:52:13 <elliott> Vorpal: And? Those are objects.
10:52:20 <Vorpal> right
10:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, but it would be useless to persist those on disks. For a start during a reboot the tcp connection would time out.
10:53:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, purely as an optimisation the objects could hint in their metadata that persisting them is pointless.
10:53:18 <elliott> But if they do get persisted, it's no big deal.
10:53:19 <Vorpal> elliott, if a computer is turned off, you can't persist the whole internet's state against you. :P
10:53:24 <elliott> It'll just be GC'd later.
10:53:52 <Vorpal> So you will have to deal with the lack of persistence as soon as you involve network communication
10:53:59 <elliott> (Remember that @ is designed for SSDs. Well, SSDs with even better write-cycle lifetime than the current generation SSDs.)
10:54:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really.
10:54:07 <elliott> Sockets die when you wake your computer up, not that complicated.
10:54:24 <Vorpal> hm, okay that works
10:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, btw what about transactions? If it isn't a laptop and you get a power outage, without an ups...
10:55:18 <elliott> Define transaction.
10:55:36 <Vorpal> elliott, think a database that wants to be sure it's objects won't be lost.
10:55:51 <Vorpal> in case of a power outage, or fatal PSU failure or whatever
10:56:08 <elliott> Vorpal: well, "object writes" are (in theory) atomic.
10:56:16 <elliott> so it'll just get the last persisted thing.
10:57:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well right, but a database won't be happy with that. When COMMIT; in SQL (and the equiv in other types of databases) succeed there should be no way that the data could be lost after.
10:57:23 <elliott> so it tells the persistence layer to commit it.
10:57:26 <Vorpal> right
10:57:29 <elliott> if the machine crashes while that's happening, well, what the fuck can you do?
10:57:45 <elliott> just because some sql server developer says that COMMIT; means that things will NEVER EVER GET LOST doesn't stop physics :)
10:58:06 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. The harddrive could catch fire or such
10:58:29 <elliott> who likes sql anyway, it sucks
10:58:54 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Elliott "-rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 150K 2011-03-31 11:33 logs.sqlite3" Hird.
10:59:04 <elliott> I believe I said, "nothing happened"?
10:59:08 <Vorpal> elliott, :P
10:59:11 <elliott> Anyway that was just a really bad typo for "hi there everyone".
10:59:19 <elliott> ch2: Wasn't it.
10:59:20 <Vorpal> riight
10:59:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Ask ch2 yourself.
10:59:36 <Vorpal> elliott, ch2 is a bot as far as I can tell :P
10:59:47 <Vorpal> probably run by you
10:59:52 <elliott> I would ask it how it felt about that accusation but I'd have to open logs.sqlite3 to see its reply.
11:00:10 <Vorpal> elliott, aha, so that is what the file is for :P
11:00:17 <elliott> EXCUSE ME?
11:01:09 <elliott> I think it is clear that Vorpal knows not of what he talks.
11:01:35 <Vorpal> har
11:02:19 <elliott> glogbot: WHAT IS YOUR OPINIONS
11:02:45 <fizzie> fungot: You're the extroverted one, what do you think?
11:02:46 <fungot> fizzie: i believe it anyway. it doesn't
11:03:18 <elliott> fungot believes me!
11:03:18 <fungot> elliott: x y z))? the number one?"
11:03:27 <fizzie> Believes "it".
11:03:32 <elliott> Vorpal: ch2 has aspirations, you know!
11:03:34 <elliott> fizzie: Yes!
11:03:41 <elliott> Mayhaps it believes ch2.
11:05:49 <elliott> Vorpal: SHEESH
11:06:29 <Vorpal> hm?
11:06:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Your rampant disbelief.
11:08:02 * tswett rustles.
11:08:06 <fizzie> His rampart disbelieve.
11:08:46 <fizzie> Heh. there's a Rampart port in the PlayStation Network thing.
11:09:03 <elliott> fizzie: So did that C128 ever get an IPv6 stack running?
11:09:17 <elliott> CONVERSATIONS FROM 2002
11:10:03 <fizzie> It hasn't really been used much; doing anything with it involves too much hardware, and somehow hardware makes me feel queasy.
11:10:11 <fizzie> All those cables and things, ugh.
11:10:23 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:10:25 <fizzie> We really should get rid of all the physical nonsense.
11:11:36 <elliott> fizzie: So it doesn't do IPv6?
11:11:39 <elliott> How sad.
11:11:48 <elliott> Hi ais523.
11:12:17 <fizzie> It doesn't really do any sort of networking at all; I don't have the hardware.
11:13:50 <ais523> hi elliott
11:17:07 <elliott> [23:50:53] -!- navigator [~andreou@ppp5.ee.teiath.gr] has quit ["[BX] Occifer, I'm not as think as you stoned I am!"]
11:17:07 <elliott> [23:56:30] -!- IcemanX [Iceman@] has joined #esoteric
11:17:07 <elliott> [23:56:54] < IcemanX> Have you seen navigator today?
11:17:45 <ais523> hmm, close timing
11:18:08 <ais523> meanwhile, according to Slashdot, Samsung has been installing keyloggers on new laptops it sells, in order to collect usage statistics
11:18:14 <ais523> how can they possibly have thought that was a good idea?
11:18:17 <elliott> also according to reddit
11:18:24 <ais523> so it must be true
11:18:28 <elliott> exactly
11:18:30 <fizzie> Also according to a-place-I-forgot.
11:18:41 <fizzie> http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/040411sec1.html
11:18:43 <fizzie> That place.
11:18:52 <elliott> is it just me, or does slashdot look quite pland nowadays?
11:18:56 <fizzie> (Full disclosure: link courtesy of 'ros.)
11:18:56 <elliott> bland
11:19:07 <elliott> hmm
11:19:11 <elliott> to be really sure, we should check el reg
11:19:37 <elliott> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/30/samsung_imitating_sony/
11:19:42 <elliott> "Updated: denied by Samsung"
11:19:45 <elliott> ais523: it's obviously false then
11:19:47 <elliott> that was even in red text
11:19:52 <elliott> Update Samsung has issued a brief denial, in which it said the researcher has identified an innocuous directory as the keylogger in error. Its statement says that the researcher's security program "mistook a folder created by Microsoft Live Application for a key logging software, during a virus scan.". Looks like a game of claim and counter-claim is on the cards. ®
11:20:04 <ais523> according to Slashdot, they denied it, and then admitted it later
11:20:06 <elliott> THANKS, REGISTER
11:20:14 <elliott> ais523: I DON'T SEE THAT ON THE REG ARTICLE
11:20:15 <elliott> MUST BE FALSE
11:21:50 <fizzie> Or they might have denied it a third time.
11:22:00 <elliott> "Book Review: The Art of Computer Programming. Volume 4A: Combinatorial Algorithm"
11:22:09 <elliott> we don't have time for reviews! we have to convince knuth to release the next volumes!
11:22:19 <elliott> he's 73 already, there is no time to waste!
11:22:25 <ais523> he has to write them first
11:22:32 <elliott> HE HAS TO WRITE THEM FASTER
11:22:52 <elliott> he has to write 4B, 4C, maybe 4D, and 5, 6 and 7
11:22:58 <fizzie> Some dude has "confirmed" it's a false-positive at http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/samsung-keylogger-is-a-gfi-vipre-antivirus-false-positive/12128 by creating a similarly named empty folder.
11:23:15 <elliott> Don't know about you, but I think Knuth is remarkably optimistic about his life span.
11:23:21 <impomatic> I'm still waiting for Knuth's book on compilers which he promise to write after TAOCP! :-(
11:23:29 <elliott> impomatic: Keep dreaming :P
11:24:11 <impomatic> I'm working on my Forth again today after going off on a tangent for a few days :-)
11:24:28 <elliott> 510 bytes! 510 bytes!
11:24:44 <fizzie> Volume 5: estimated to be ready in 2020.
11:24:54 <impomatic> Not possible with 8086. Maybe with Z80.
11:25:12 <elliott> speaking of prolific old people, I wonder how many hours of film Attenborough's documentaries total up to
11:25:40 <fizzie> And isn't the "book on compilers" in fact volume 7 of TAOCP?
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11:36:27 <elliott> Vorpal: "This laptop is in pretty poor condition. [...] It is in Great Condition." --eBay
11:37:07 <elliott> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:560E there's one of these for sale, like a time machine!
11:37:33 <elliott> " Boots up, XP loads, Microsoft Office loaded and working but still being sold For Parts and Not Working."
11:37:35 <elliott> Uhhhhhh...
11:37:38 <elliott> FSVO "not"
11:42:50 <elliott> ...wish gentoo did things like "support non-glibc libcs" and "support static linking the system" so that it wasn't a pointless waste of time
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11:56:35 <Phantom_Hoover> http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ga/1994/ga940408.gif
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11:59:18 <elliott> I'M TRYING OUT ZSH AGAIN WHYYY
11:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU CANNOT RESIST THE CRAZY
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12:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, *builtins and modules of crazy
12:00:55 <elliott> I set on the "scroll completions with arrow keys" thing and DO NOT WANT
12:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> BUT IT IS SO BEAUTIFUL
12:01:17 <elliott> SO DISRUPTIVE
12:01:31 <elliott> Also, fuck, this machine needs a better name than elliott-MacBookAir.
12:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (I switched to zsh in a moment of madness and now I'm hooked.)
12:01:38 <elliott> What's really really thin.
12:01:43 <elliott> (I'm not going to call my computer "anorexic".)
12:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, call it Kate Moss.
12:01:59 <elliott> YES YES VERY FUNNY
12:03:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOW MANY LINES DOES YOUR PROMPT HAVE
12:05:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FIRST
12:05:20 <Phantom_Hoover> DEPENDS ON THE DIRECTORY I'M IN
12:05:39 <elliott> ...
12:05:41 <fizzie> My PS1 is "\u@\h:\w$ " -- I'm such a lame-o. (A long time ago I had a multi-line colored prompt with all kinds of djiggamajigs in it.)
12:05:55 <elliott> fizzie: That's BASH TALK, those escapes are.
12:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> IT TAKES UP 2/3 OF THE LINE IF I'M IN Programs/PlanetoidMapGenerator, BUT THAT'S AN EXTREME CASE
12:06:02 <fizzie> Yes, so's PS1.
12:06:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:06:27 <elliott> I like how tab at the start of a line in zsh inserts a literal tab rather than listing the directories to cd to.
12:06:36 <elliott> Because, yay, literal tabs! I enter them in the shell all the time!
12:06:58 <fizzie> Tab on an empty line here: "Display all 5218 possibilities? (y or n)"
12:07:05 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, that's also so-useful. :p
12:07:32 <elliott> zsh has that nice thing where "cd foo bar" replaces foo with bar in the current path. I'm not quite sure what that's useful for, but it must be something.
12:07:49 <elliott> Also the "type a directory name to cd there"; that's undoubtedly nice.
12:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, zsh allows mmap-on-shell-level.
12:08:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT KIND OF SHELL DOESN'T
12:08:04 <fizzie> Well, you never know when you want to run akonadi_nepomuktag_resource, but have forgotten what letter it started iwth.
12:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, does bash?
12:08:26 <elliott> ┌┌(elliott@elliott-MacBookAir)┌(85/pts/25)┌(01:08pm:03/31/11)┌-
12:08:26 <elliott> └┌(%:~)┌- ~
12:08:29 <elliott> prompt elite2: a mistake?
12:08:39 <elliott> Jesus some people have bad taste.
12:08:55 <elliott> █▓▒░elliott@elliott-MacBookAir░▒▓██▓▒░ Thu Mar 31 01:08:40pm
12:08:55 <elliott> /home/elliott> prompt ~
12:09:01 <elliott> You can't see it, but there's a colour gradient there too.
12:09:14 <elliott> [Thu 11/03/31 13:09 BST][pts/25][x86_64/linux-gnu/2.6.35-28-generic][4.3.10]
12:09:15 <elliott> <elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~>
12:09:15 <elliott> zsh/2 93 % ~
12:09:48 <fizzie> You should put in disk space, CPU, network and memory usage.
12:11:21 <fizzie> elliott: Here, take this: http://twitpic.com/zxipd
12:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, where'd you get this zshrc?
12:11:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This is just
12:11:41 <elliott> autoload -U prompt
12:11:42 <elliott> promptinit
12:11:44 <elliott> prompt <TAB>
12:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> XD
12:11:47 <fizzie> Notice the "you're in a Mercurial repo" symbol.
12:11:51 <elliott> fizzie: Holy fucklecakes.
12:12:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly the guy works for Agda.
12:12:59 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure why ± significes a Git repo.
12:15:28 <elliott> fizzie: It's a tree in nethack with decgraphics.
12:15:32 <elliott> git repos are made of trees.
12:15:33 <elliott> qed.
12:15:55 <fizzie> I... guess that makes sense, somehow.
12:16:52 <fizzie> Oh, right, me so slow: it's of course that ---/+++ git logo.
12:17:53 <elliott> But of naturally.
12:18:11 <fizzie> Though I think it should then be ∓ and not ±. (And why does both "+-" and "-+" compose to ±? Okay, because the latter is in latin-1 and the other one is just some U+2213 nonsense, but still.)
12:18:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT COLOURS ARE YOUR PROMPT
12:18:32 <elliott> Right now I'm toying with a stylish bold blue for my path and bold black (i.e. dark grey) for my %.
12:18:40 <fizzie> My leet-prompt used to have oodles of dark grey in-between the meaty parts.
12:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I just used a zshrc I got off the internet after a cursory examination to make sure it wasn't going to kill me or anything.
12:18:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This makes you a: bad.
12:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm making my own now.
12:23:33 <elliott> Aha.
12:23:40 <elliott> My zsh prompt was "[username:path] %".
12:23:42 <elliott> All in yellow, I believe.
12:24:14 <elliott> Really, I've no idea why zsh doesn't just make the prompt a function.
12:24:18 <variable> [%! %F{blue}%n@%F{blue}%m %F{magenta}%30<...<%~ %F{red}%(?..!%?!)%f]%# --> PS1 :-\
12:24:40 <elliott> variable: EXCUSE ME, THIS IS A TALK FOR ADULT ZSH USERS
12:24:43 <elliott> NOT BASHISTS
12:24:53 <variable> erm - this is zsh
12:24:56 <elliott> oh :D
12:24:58 <elliott> I've always used PROMPT
12:25:14 <variable> elliott: compatibility; there is a function that is run right before the prompt is set to change it
12:25:27 <variable> also - I use PS1, because I also use PS2 and PS3 :-)
12:25:27 <elliott> Compatibility, with that line, RIGHT :P
12:25:31 <variable> (and RPS1)
12:25:38 <elliott> Multiple-line prompts are like killing babies.
12:25:42 <elliott> This is an objective fact.
12:25:54 <elliott> TBH I dunno why I don't just install fish again :P
12:26:39 <variable> I need to patch zsh to correct to the longer instead of correcting to the equal
12:26:42 <variable> or less
12:26:49 <variable> ie I want lss -> less; not ls
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12:28:53 <elliott> variable: that gives me lss16toppm here :-D
12:29:08 <variable> elliott: hehe. What is lss ?
12:29:16 <variable> elliott: erm not tab complete - correction
12:29:20 <variable> type lss<enter>
12:29:21 <elliott> DESCRIPTION
12:29:22 <elliott> This manual page documents briefly the lss16toppm command.
12:29:22 <elliott> The lss16toppm utility converts an LSS-16 image to a PPM image.
12:29:24 <elliott> i don't even want to know
12:29:28 <elliott> variable: zsh: command not found: lss
12:29:30 <elliott> variable: huh
12:29:33 <elliott> variable: guess i didn't turn that on
12:29:44 * elliott reruns compinstall
12:29:46 <variable> elliott: yeah. setopt correct
12:29:52 <elliott> or that
12:30:11 <elliott> zsh: correct 'lss' to 'ss' [nyae]?
12:30:23 <elliott> Where's the "do it your fucking self" option :P
12:30:38 <fizzie> No command 'lss' found, did you mean: Command 'lsh' from package 'lsh-client' (universe) -- Command 'lsw' from package 'dwm-tools' (universe) -- Command 'lst' from package 'lustre-utils' (universe) -- Command 'less' from package 'less' (main) -- Command 'ls' from package 'coreutils' (main) -- Command 'lfs' from package 'lustre-utils' (universe) -- Command 'ass' from package 'irpas' (multiverse) -- Command 'lms' from package 'lms' (universe) -- Command 'les' fro
12:30:38 <fizzie> m package 'atm-tools' (universe) -- Command 'lvs' from package 'lvm2' (main) -- Command 'lssu' from package 'nilfs2-tools' (universe) -- Command 'gss' from package 'libgss-dev' (universe) -- Command 'ss' from package 'iproute' (main)
12:30:39 <variable> elliott: you *don't* want that
12:30:59 <elliott> variable: name a command that will nuke my disk without asking first when invoked with no arguments :-P
12:31:43 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112 ~% rn test.file
12:31:43 <fizzie> zsh: correct 'rn' to 'rm' [nyae]?
12:31:59 <elliott> Nyae sounds like olde english.
12:32:33 <variable> elliott: are you using suicide Linux?
12:32:45 <elliott> variable: That sounds like a fun distro.
12:32:59 <variable> elliott: have you heard of it before?
12:33:04 <elliott> No.
12:33:05 <elliott> Oh.
12:33:07 <elliott> Yes.
12:33:13 <elliott> Sam Hughes.
12:33:32 <variable> elliott: if you ever make a mistake when running it it runs rm -rf /*
12:33:34 <variable> :-)
12:33:43 <elliott> hmm, I should make an empty zsh line do an ls
12:33:48 <elliott> so i can just whack enter
12:34:03 <elliott> now if only I knew how :p
12:35:14 <variable> elliott: it is not that hard
12:35:33 <elliott> yeah, but I'm also trying to figure out how to show some kind of white-on-red status code in RPROMPT if the last command exited non-zero :)
12:36:12 <elliott> aha
12:36:15 <elliott> you can do $() in them
12:36:23 <variable> elliott: in precmd()
12:36:42 <elliott> RPROMPT='$([ $? = 0 ] || echo "oh noes!!")'
12:36:43 <variable> "$*" contains the command just run
12:36:43 <elliott> No?
12:36:50 <ais523_> variable: I like the way you did /* there to allow for the fact that most version of rm need a special param to delete / itself (on the basis that doing so is never useful)
12:36:57 <elliott> Oops, that shows literally.
12:37:07 <elliott> ais523_: not true, it's useful for ... uhhh
12:37:15 <elliott> "After that you’ll need to define the Zsh RPROMPT variable:
12:37:15 <elliott> RPROMPT='$(battery_charge)'"
12:37:16 <elliott> ^ this person lied to me
12:37:19 <elliott> or maybe it just has to be a function
12:37:21 <variable> elliott: erm %(?..!%?!) does what you just did with $?
12:37:53 <ais523_> elliott: this is #esoteric, you need a /lot/ of justification for a statement like that
12:38:04 <variable> elliott: try precmd() { [[ -z "$@" ]] && ls }
12:38:42 <elliott> how do you do background? if %F is foreground
12:39:24 <elliott> i guess i could google it :)
12:39:50 <elliott> i could just use $bg[blah] i suppose
12:40:55 <variable> elliott: its %K
12:41:03 <elliott> ah, thanks
12:41:23 <elliott> RPROMPT='%(%K{red}%F{white}%B%?%b%f)'
12:41:23 <elliott> now it's just nothingness :(
12:41:32 <elliott> i guess that ? at the start is needed, but then it displays "K{red}"
12:42:01 <variable> elliott: for a white on read status code in propt
12:42:08 <elliott> variable: only if it's non-zero :)
12:42:17 <variable> elliott: yeah: I gave most of that to you
12:42:24 <elliott> yeah, i tried to adapt it :)
12:42:27 <elliott> i seem to have stuffed it up though
12:42:38 <elliott> oo, now i got it close
12:42:57 <elliott> except it's only showing when zero :) hmm...
12:42:58 <variable> %F{white}%K{red}%(?..!%?!)
12:43:54 <elliott> what /does/ that last bit do anyway, I can guess %? but the rest...
12:44:29 <variable> %? is the status. !! are literals the .. IIRC says non-zero
12:44:45 <elliott> would be nice if it was just replaced with lisp :)
12:44:58 * variable points elliott to emacs
12:45:07 <elliott> variable: not a very good shell.
12:45:10 <variable> I'm sure some has written a complete-shell in emacs
12:45:14 <elliott> eshell
12:45:16 <elliott> it's not very good
12:45:20 <variable> fix it?
12:45:21 <elliott> (it also has coreutils-alikes)
12:45:29 <elliott> no, i prefer SOME modicum of posix compat :)
12:45:35 <elliott> it's not broken really
12:45:37 <elliott> it's just...naff
12:45:53 <ais523_> elliott: anyway, you can do "sudo rm -rf --no-preserve-root /" if you ever find a reason to delete the root dir
12:46:03 <ais523_> I love the way that there is an option to do that if you really really want to
12:46:05 <variable> ais523_: not in FreeBSD
12:46:09 <elliott> ais523_: that doesn't work, you're a liar! i won't believe it until i can test it on your machine!
12:46:11 <ais523_> variable: that's in GNU rm
12:46:19 <elliott> variable: yes, if you run GNU rm on FreeBSD
12:46:48 <variable> elliott: oh, right - who else would do something so insanely stupid?
12:46:52 <ais523_> I love the BSD people's reasoning why special-casing rm -rf / was POSIX-compliant
12:47:03 <variable> ais523_: oh really? explain?
12:47:05 <elliott> variable: hey, i'm the only one allowed to complain about gnu here
12:47:10 <variable> I didn't know there was an excuse
12:47:15 <ais523_> it's that POSIX allows you to special-case rm on the current directory, and a recursive rm on / necessarily hits the current directory
12:47:18 <ais523_> and thus is allowed to be special-cased
12:47:36 <elliott> what
12:47:39 <variable> ais523_: link?
12:47:45 <ais523_> variable: I don't have one offhand
12:47:47 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:47:47 <elliott> by that logic, "rm -rf /usr" is disallowable if you're in /usr/local/ucb/vax
12:47:55 <ais523_> elliott: I think it probably is
12:48:00 <elliott> ridiculous
12:48:17 <ais523_> I mean, what would happen to the current directory if it did work?
12:48:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
12:48:52 <variable> ais523_: its easy.
12:49:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:49:21 <variable> ais523_: try mkdir a && cd a && rm -rf ../a && cd .
12:49:21 <variable> on most systems that last command would fail
12:49:32 <variable> because the directory would have been deleted
12:49:38 <ais523_> variable: haha
12:49:48 <ais523_> I assumed the rm -rf would fail with "device busy" or something like that
12:50:10 <ais523_> (this is why daemons do a cd / as they daemonise, so you can delete the directory they were run from)
12:50:14 <elliott> <ais523_> I assumed the rm -rf would fail with "device busy" or something like that
12:50:17 <elliott> that's windows thinking!
12:50:38 <ais523_> elliott: ISTR trying it before, but I forget exactly what happened
12:50:48 <elliott> gah, zsh is recording duplicate history lines
12:50:53 <variable> ais523_: remember on unix like systems the name and the data are different. On windows and other systems with file locking it won't let you do that
12:51:02 <variable> elliott: setopt nohistdup
12:51:15 <variable> elliott: or setopt ignoredups or setopt ignorealldups
12:51:20 <elliott> heh
12:51:22 <elliott> what's the difference?
12:51:24 <ais523_> variable: I know, but you can't hardlink directories, so the problem doesn't come up
12:51:35 <variable> elliott: a; b; a is only ignored by the latter
12:51:41 <variable> a; a; b by both
12:51:50 <elliott> ah
12:52:49 <variable> elliott: personally I don't expire all dups but I use hist_expire_dups_first
12:53:04 <variable> also set setopt hist_reduce_blanks && setopt extended_history
12:53:09 <elliott> variable: it's more that i kept hitting the up key and it kept showing me the same crap
12:53:14 <ais523_> variable: I'm a little surprised they ignore the b
12:53:14 <variable> Ah
12:53:17 <elliott> actually what i'd like is kind of a compromise: ignore repeated blocks of commands
12:53:29 <elliott> ignore "a; a", don't ignore "a; b; a", but ignore "a; b; a; b"
12:53:32 <elliott> but that's non-trivial to do
12:53:46 <elliott> extended_history?
12:54:06 <elliott> /home/elliott/.zshrc:setopt:27: no such option: ignoredups
12:54:11 <elliott> guess i'm on an old version
12:54:23 <elliott> no nohistdup either
12:54:29 <variable> elliott: `: <beginning time>:<elapsed seconds>;<command>'. instead of just the command
12:54:31 <ais523_> elliott: what you do is you compress it with gzip, then set all the repeat counts to 1, then uncompress it again
12:54:37 <ais523_> (I wonder if that would actually work?)
12:54:39 <variable> elliott: sorry histignoredups
12:54:51 <elliott> ais523_: :D
12:55:00 <elliott> ais523_: I'd like to try that on arbitrary data just to see the mayhem
12:55:05 <elliott> ais523_: do it to the gpl :)
12:55:18 <variable> ais523_: does gzip have any consistency checking?
12:55:21 <ais523_> I may have meant pkzip rather than gzip, you need to use the right compression algo for it to work
12:55:31 <ais523_> and it may be one that doesn't actually exist
12:55:40 <ais523_> variable: I'm not sure, but my guess is no as gzip is streamable
12:56:09 <Vorpal> <ais523_> I mean, what would happen to the current directory if it did work? <-- would become invalid. But as long as the rm command is run from elsewhere it won't complain iirc. If you show the path in $PS1 and cd up it can become a little strange though. I seem to remember stuff like "~/tmp/foo/bar/.. $" when I removed foo there. and then cd .. from inside the now missing bar
12:56:10 <ais523_> i.e. with the right command-line options, you can do tail -F logfile | gzip --something | zcat and get output before the tail command finishes
12:56:39 <ais523_> Vorpal: oh, I remember accidentally chmod a-rx .. or something along those lines
12:56:41 <Vorpal> but yes rm tends to complain about removing iirc
12:56:44 <ais523_> and it caused similar beahaviour
12:56:48 <Vorpal> ah
12:56:55 <elliott> hmm, why hasn't gnome-terminal taken note of the chsh yet
12:57:02 <fizzie> There's a CRC32 at the end of a gzip stream, but of course you don't need to wait for that if you don't want/care.
12:57:10 <elliott> maybe it's hardcoded the shell
12:57:21 <Vorpal> elliott, don't you need to re-login for chsh to take effect?
12:57:52 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm, are gnome sessions really tied to that?
12:58:04 <Vorpal> that I don't know
12:58:09 <variable> %rm .
12:58:09 <variable> rm: "." and ".." may not be removed
12:58:12 <ais523_> hmm, perhaps login sets an environment variable
12:58:20 <variable> ais523_: I am ALWAYS set
12:58:20 <Vorpal> variable, that is just in rm itself iirc
12:58:26 <variable> Vorpal: yeah, I know
12:58:30 <variable> as is /
12:58:32 <ais523_> and gnome-terminal looks at it
12:58:37 <ais523_> $SHELL would make sense
12:58:56 <fizzie> "SHELL=/usr/bin/zsh gnome-terminal" starts a zsh.
12:59:14 <Vorpal> variable, and I use a shell function wrapper for rm that catches stuff like rm -r * ~
12:59:27 <ais523_> Vorpal: what specifically does it do?
12:59:38 <Vorpal> ais523_, sec. will pastebin it
12:59:43 <variable> Vorpal: I have the shell do it
12:59:46 <elliott> i wonder if there's a way to tell the gnome session thingybob to change its environment vars :)
12:59:50 <Vorpal> ais523_, http://sprunge.us/cYgL
13:00:04 <variable> Vorpal: rm *; zsh: sure you want to delete all the files in /home/.../a [yn]?
13:00:12 <Vorpal> variable, right. I use bash
13:00:21 <ais523_> "rm is a function"? surely that would just delete ./is, ./a, ./function?
13:00:31 * variable smacks ais523_
13:00:37 <Vorpal> ais523_, that was the output from: type rm | sprunge
13:00:37 <ais523_> ouch
13:00:38 <Vorpal> :P
13:00:41 <ais523_> Vorpal: aha
13:00:48 <elliott> hmm, swatting is far too mild
13:00:50 <variable> Vorpal: what is sprunge? and why not use type?
13:00:54 <variable> erm
13:00:54 * elliott brutally injures variable
13:01:02 <variable> * only typ
13:01:03 <ais523_> so you're catching rm * via RMGUARD?
13:01:04 <elliott> sprunge is a nice pastebin.
13:01:07 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/
13:01:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:01:14 <Vorpal> variable, sprunge.us. And sprunge is http://sprunge.us/IWON :P
13:01:18 <variable> elliott: ah. I use pastebinit (although that's broken now)
13:01:23 <ais523_> I like the trick of creating a file called -i, in the hope it comes first on the rm option line
13:01:30 <ais523_> but I'm not certain it does
13:01:38 <elliott> variable: bloat :)
13:01:38 <variable> elliott: I could just change.... injuring me doesn't work
13:01:41 <elliott> stgraber@castiana:~/data/code/pastebinit$ ./pastebinit -l
13:01:41 <elliott> Supported pastebins:
13:01:41 <elliott> - sprunge.us
13:01:48 <elliott> so pastebinit supports sprunge :P
13:01:57 <Vorpal> unlike many pastebins sprunge is very fast for me. pastebin.com often took multiple seconds to load
13:02:07 <Vorpal> same for many other ones
13:02:30 <variable> ais523_: http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/fixing-unix-linux-filenames.html
13:02:43 * elliott wonders how often Vorpal types rm -rf /home/arvid.
13:02:51 <variable> ais523_: 99% of shell scripts Do It Wrong
13:02:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't. $HOME gets expanded in reading .bashrc I think
13:03:06 <Vorpal> elliott, either that, or in printing it
13:03:10 <ais523_> variable: I know, and I've written both shellscripts that do it wrong, and that do it right
13:03:24 <elliott> ais523_: pretty sure variable is referring to over-escaping as doing it wrong
13:03:26 <elliott> variable: i forget, does that article argue against spaces in filenames? or just newlines, dashes, etc.?
13:03:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the reason is, there is a risk of it getting expanded before it reaches the function.
13:03:35 <ais523_> hmm, what does it say about me that my home dir is /home/ais523, rather than using my own realname?
13:03:48 <ais523_> elliott: "$@" is normally correct if you're just trying to copy your command-line args to another program
13:03:53 <ais523_> and doesn't overescape or underescape
13:03:53 <variable> elliott: it passively mentions spaces - but generally argues against leading dashes, newlines, control characters, etc
13:03:54 <elliott> Vorpal: and your home dir has less than three files?
13:03:54 <ais523_> right?
13:03:57 <elliott> so -I won't trigger?
13:04:04 <elliott> ais523_: it's always correct, it's sh magic
13:04:07 <Vorpal> elliott, err? no?
13:04:14 <Vorpal> --- sprunge.us ping statistics ---
13:04:15 <Vorpal> 12 packets transmitted, 12 received, 0% packet loss, time 11011ms
13:04:15 <Vorpal> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 34.245/35.674/36.846/0.772 ms
13:04:17 <elliott> Vorpal: then the guard is pointless!
13:04:19 <elliott> -I will already stop you
13:04:27 <Vorpal> elliott, what?
13:04:30 <elliott> ...
13:04:34 <elliott> apparently Vorpal can't read his own function
13:04:44 <variable> Vorpal: can you paste your config files? I like seeing other people's functions and such. Gives me ideas
13:04:59 <ais523_> "cat ./* > ../collection # CORRECT"
13:05:00 <elliott> Vorpal: (he's trying to get your passwords)
13:05:07 <ais523_> variable: your link is wrong, that fails on filenames with embedded newlines
13:05:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you talking about? the rm function looks fine to me
13:05:14 <elliott> ais523_: stop trolling
13:05:15 <ais523_> in that the resulting collection file will have the wrong format
13:05:20 <ais523_> elliott: is that trolling?
13:05:24 <variable> ais523_: read through it all. He talks about embedded newlines
13:05:29 <elliott> ais523_: yes, because the article specifically argues against that
13:05:48 <ais523_> oh right, I misread
13:05:51 <ais523_> muddled cat and echo
13:05:58 <elliott> Vorpal: do
13:05:58 <elliott> if [[ $arg == '~' ]] || [[ $arg == /home/arvid ]] || [[ $arg =~ RMGUARD ]]; then
13:05:58 <elliott> [...]
13:05:59 <elliott> command rm -I "$@"
13:06:05 <elliott> unless your home dir has less than three files, this offers no extra protection
13:06:07 <elliott> as -I already kicks in
13:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, true, but check what rm -I says in the question. It doesn't list what files.
13:06:42 <Vorpal> thus it offers protection
13:06:45 <elliott> OH N03Z
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13:07:18 <ais523_> hmm, I like the mention of displaying filenames potentially being a security vulnerability
13:07:26 <ais523_> it's "correct", but I consider that a terminal bug rather than a sh bug
13:07:32 <ais523_> as all sorts of other things can trigger it
13:07:50 <variable> ais523_: it isn't a terminal bug. The idea is that your displaying terminal control characters
13:07:55 <variable> I consider it a filesystem bug
13:08:07 <ais523_> variable: but the same thing can happen if, say, you cat your Apache logfiles
13:08:11 <ais523_> and someone put escape codes in the referrer
13:08:14 <elliott> hey guys
13:08:17 <elliott> the real bug is filesystems
13:08:18 <elliott> and shells
13:08:20 <elliott> and all of unix
13:08:24 <elliott> can we stop debating now because i won >:D
13:08:29 <ais523_> elliott: that has nothing to do with filesystems or shells at all
13:08:30 <variable> ais523_: or a kernel bug. The system should *not* be allowing those chars in a filename
13:08:32 <ais523_> or even UNIX
13:08:40 <ais523_> variable: it's nothing to do with filenames!
13:08:45 <elliott> ais523_: the need for quoting filenames in the first place, or the fact that this is even a thing that is being discussed, is Unix's fault
13:08:54 <elliott> therefore to continue talking about it you must justify Unix to me
13:08:56 <elliott> good luck
13:08:59 <ais523_> elliott: read what I'm actually saying
13:09:00 <elliott> ;D
13:09:03 <ais523_> I'm not in fact talking about that
13:09:05 <variable> ais523_: if [ $RANDOM % 2 -eq 1 ]; then elliott == trolling; fi
13:09:19 <elliott> variable: wtf kind of command is elliott
13:09:34 <elliott> i'm only half-trolling, the fact that this is even an issue is stupid :)
13:09:45 <ais523_> variable: you made me look to see if "elliott" was almost an anagram of "trolling" then, but the closest I get is "ttollie", which is not that similar
13:09:54 <elliott> just call me toilet
13:10:10 <variable> elliott: questionably. I have my own ideas about what should be designed if we were to Do It Over. But that can't happen
13:10:31 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, you will run into a quoting problem as soon as you allow the shell argument separator char in filenames. So what do you suggest? Forbidding space and similar in filenames? Using another separator in the shell? (I completely agree that newlines shouldn't be allowed in filenames)
13:10:40 <elliott> variable: er - correct me if I'm wrong -
13:10:43 <ais523_> oh, apparently mandb gets permanently corrupted if you create a manpage for an executable called "oo, ick" (without the quotes)
13:10:47 <elliott> variable: but did you just say that Unix derivatives will rule the world forever?
13:10:54 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:11:14 <Vorpal> ais523_, just that specific string? Or any other with comma and space?
13:11:19 <elliott> maybe the next few decades, but not forever. COBOL hasn't died but it's certainly fallen.
13:11:26 <ais523_> and yet many people would argue that that's a perfectly sensible filename; Windows users do that sort of thing all the time
13:11:29 <variable> elliott: no. I did say that I find it extremely unlikely that a complete departure from the current methods of doing things will take place
13:11:37 <elliott> variable: forever?
13:11:39 <ais523_> Vorpal: well, that's the one it did crash on, in Debian
13:11:45 <Vorpal> ah
13:11:54 <ais523_> it lead to an argument between "mandb is broken, you should fix it" and "CLC-INTERCAL is much less important than mandb, you should just rename it"
13:11:56 <elliott> variable: I'm just making sure you have a good idea of how long the infinite stretch of time you're saying we'll go without innovation will be
13:12:05 <elliott> because it's an incredibly extraordinary claim
13:12:30 <variable> elliott: I'm hesitant to say so, but I would not be surprised if we never leave
13:12:31 <variable> elliott - innovation is not the issue AT ALL
13:12:40 <elliott> <variable> elliott: I'm hesitant to say so, but I would not be surprised if we never leave
13:12:40 <variable> it is compatibility and expense of switching
13:12:45 <elliott> are you sure you just don't mean: in the next 50 years?
13:12:50 <ais523_> elliott: I expect UNIX derivatives to be used for as long as the concept makes sense, but I don't expect the concept to apply to non-obsolete technology forever
13:13:02 <Vorpal> ais523_, Basically they were claiming that mandb was a partial function?
13:13:04 <elliott> variable: let's say we don't go extinct and there's no singularity or anything and it's the year 3000
13:13:07 <ais523_> Vorpal: ?
13:13:10 <elliott> you think we'll still be using unix?
13:13:21 <Vorpal> err, maybe not right English word
13:13:23 * Vorpal googles
13:13:50 <variable> elliott: we will probably not be using unix. I would NOT be surprised if however there was some form of unix compatibility, or there are 'historical' filenames or whatnot.
13:14:06 <variable> and yes - this is 1000 years in the future
13:14:19 <Vorpal> ais523_, basically, it was undefined for some values in the domain (the set of valid filenames on that particular system)
13:14:21 <ais523_> IIRC Windows is /still/ compatible with CP/M, but that's only a few decades
13:14:24 <variable> (or 2989 but meh)
13:14:30 <ais523_> Vorpal: ah
13:14:34 <ais523_> I don't really see mandb as a function
13:14:40 <variable> elliott: I'm not saying we won't switch away ever
13:14:58 <elliott> variable: so in the year 1011
13:14:59 <Vorpal> right
13:15:01 <variable> elliott: I'm saying that inertia is kind of strong. Same reason we still have little endian computers :-)
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13:15:16 <elliott> it's not thousand-year strong. unix isn't that strong. or important.
13:15:30 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1011
13:15:40 <elliott> just making sure you understand the length of time involved here
13:16:11 <variable> elliott: I take back my claim. I never intended to defend it very strongly.
13:16:21 <elliott> i'm not saying you should retract it
13:16:26 <elliott> i'm just astonished that it was made
13:16:33 <elliott> and legitimately can't understand
13:16:34 <variable> elliott: I was making a point about inertia
13:16:43 <elliott> sure
13:16:53 <variable> I guess I hyperbolized too much
13:17:06 <elliott> but at the same time, I think people saying that we're stuck with the systems we have is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy
13:17:35 <variable> elliott: on IRC I don't speak very precisely; also - I'm not saying we are *stuck* - however I think that *any* attempt to switch must have some kind of transition layer
13:17:48 <elliott> what seems to be happening in other fields -- e.g. programming languages -- is that existing "mainstream" languages pick up features from the academic fringe after a few decades ball-of-mud style
13:17:49 <variable> and I see that layer lasting *much* longer than intended
13:18:00 <elliott> so, even if making a new OS is pointless, it's still valuable
13:18:13 <Vorpal> I think x86 is unlikely to die for a long time. Sadly. Sure it will be extended, possibly to the point where it is hard to tell if it is still the same architecture. But unlikely to die soon. With soon here I'm talking about the next 10-15 years at least.
13:18:35 <elliott> x86 will be dead in 35 years.
13:18:37 <elliott> quote me on that :)
13:18:58 <variable> elliott: Vorpal: if you were to have a chance to make *one* change (related to technology) what would it be?
13:19:04 <Vorpal> elliott, impossible to make any sort of well founded prediction that far ahead I think...
13:19:09 <Vorpal> at least for this sort of thing
13:19:10 <elliott> variable: @
13:19:27 <elliott> (maybe you consider that too big to count as one change :))
13:20:07 <variable> elliott: I would pick "little endian" -> "big endian"
13:20:13 <variable> it is the cause for endless suffering
13:20:29 <variable> and large amounts of extra work (intel computer -> internet -> intel computer)
13:20:36 <elliott> oh come on
13:20:38 <elliott> endianness?
13:20:56 <elliott> i admit i'm not a networking guy, but come on... it's just swab()
13:21:04 <Vorpal> variable, if related to computers: replace x86 with a saner architecture. Say something along the lines of PPC. If technology in general I would instead go for cars. Electric or other environmentally friendly technology to be used instead of the current fuels.
13:21:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the latter is already happening
13:21:23 <variable> Vorpal: I was thinking computer specific ....
13:21:24 <elliott> "Hi i'm a genie what is your wish"
13:21:26 <elliott> "I want to get older"
13:21:32 <elliott> "Gosh! Well that's already happening."
13:21:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but not as fast as we need it to happen
13:21:34 <variable> elliott: it doesn't only affect networking
13:21:37 <elliott> Vorpal: ha ha ha
13:21:45 <variable> elliott: databases need to worry about it, streaming formats, etc
13:21:58 <variable> elliott: also, it is confusing and a POLA violation
13:22:00 <Vorpal> variable, then what I said about replacing x86
13:22:12 <Vorpal> POLA?
13:22:14 <elliott> Vorpal: It is "too late" already, the planet cannot be magically saved by moderately cutting emissions at this late a date.
13:22:27 <variable> Vorpal: Policy of Least Astonishment
13:22:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. I assumed retroactive change.
13:22:35 <ais523_> it isn't even cars that are mostly responsible for emissions anyway, IIRC
13:22:40 <ais523_> planes and ships are a lot worse
13:22:46 <ais523_> and power generation from fossil fuels
13:22:59 <elliott> Vorpal: You'd have to go waaaaaaaaay back for it to do any good.
13:23:03 <Vorpal> variable, one nice thing with little endian is that casting between, say, short and long, won't change the address.
13:23:07 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed.
13:23:12 <elliott> Anyway bioenegineering is pretty much a requirement at this point.
13:23:14 <ais523_> elliott: moderately cutting emissions now increases the chance that we'll come across some amazing new technology that saves the planet
13:23:15 <elliott> But that's not really a bad thing.
13:23:48 <elliott> ais523_: bioengineering is a perfectly practical and very promising solution, it's just not politically popular
13:23:57 <elliott> because "green" is far more marketable
13:24:01 <ais523_> what specifically do you mean by the word?
13:24:02 <elliott> turn down your washing machines! save the planet!
13:24:07 <elliott> *you too* can have warm fuzzies!
13:24:37 <ais523_> besides, even if saving energy doesn't save the planet from global warming, it still helps a lot in reducing the amount of land needed for power generation and transport
13:25:08 <elliott> ais523_: that's not exactly the biggest issue...
13:25:21 * variable is away
13:25:30 <ais523_> elliott: you'd be surprised
13:25:47 <elliott> ais523_: well, no, not really :)
13:25:49 <ais523_> it's hard enough finding places to put power stations without people getting angry and burning down the dovernment
13:25:56 <elliott> uhhh
13:26:00 <elliott> i'm going to assume you're being hyperbolic
13:26:39 <ais523_> *government
13:26:43 <ais523_> nah, 'twas just a typo
13:26:49 <elliott> no, I meant the burning down part.
13:27:23 <ais523_> there are a lot of angry people going on demonstrations for no good reason around Birmingham at the moment
13:27:30 <ais523_> although they aren't protesting against power generation in particular
13:27:42 <ais523_> or, well, anyhing much in particular, except they generically don't like the government
13:27:48 <Gregor> They ARE burning down the Ministry of Doves though.
13:27:57 <elliott> ais523_: in fairness, the government is pretty crap
13:28:16 <ais523_> I prefer it to the previous one, at least
13:28:27 <elliott> Bit of a lame comparison.
13:28:31 <ais523_> heh
13:28:58 <ais523_> also, I'm annoyed at a) all the students who seem to dislike increases in tuition fees without even seeing what the alternative proposal was (it's actually exactly the same as the original, apart from using different names)
13:29:14 <ais523_> and b) people who think the government should just spend money it doesn't have and not increase taxes
13:29:16 <Gregor> OK, so people are already in a competitive bidding mood in the libc.so auction ... I'm beginning to feel it may be prudent to put down my max early to discourage them.
13:30:11 <elliott> ais523_: wrt tuition fees, it _was_ a direct contradiction of a promise made by the lib dems
13:30:22 <ais523_> elliott: indeed it was
13:30:33 <elliott> ais523_: which is a perfectly reasonable thing to be upset about.
13:30:33 <ais523_> but the funny thing is, what the lib dems were proposing before hand was actually equivalent
13:30:39 <ais523_> and so is what labour are proposing now
13:31:27 <ais523_> it's the difference between "pay money upfront, you get a loan for it, you pay a percentage of your income to pay off a loan", and "don't pay money while a student, but afterwards you're taxed a certain proportion of your income until you've paid a certain amount"
13:31:38 <ais523_> see, tuition fees, no tuition fees, but actually no difference at all
13:31:51 <ais523_> and everyone seems to have missed it
13:32:08 <elliott> ais523_: the pay money upfront bit is the relevant difference.
13:32:16 <ais523_> no, it isn't, because you get a loan for it
13:32:26 <ais523_> note that in the second case, you're still effectively going into debt
13:32:31 <ais523_> just the money isn't called a loan
13:32:52 <ais523_> the actual difference is that in the first case, if you can afford to you can pay without the loan, and save money in the long run that way; in the second case you can't
13:34:08 <ais523_> if only the politicians had pointed this out, it could have saved a lot of trouble, but instead they were trying to use the distinction to score election points
13:34:33 <elliott> ais523_: counterpoint: EMA
13:34:48 <ais523_> as compared to?
13:35:07 <elliott> i don't even know why i said counterpoint there
13:35:08 <elliott> i'm tired.
13:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, hey df does seem to have that sort of bookmark I was wondering about before
13:38:32 <ais523_> Vorpal: df(1)? dwarf fortress? something else?
13:38:42 <Vorpal> ais523_, dwarf fortress
13:39:29 <ais523_> Vorpal: btw, how do you delete your RMGUARD files? rm ./RMGUARD? unlink RMGUARD?
13:39:42 <elliott> rm --no-really RMGUARD
13:39:45 <Vorpal> ais523_, command rm RMGUARD
13:39:48 <Vorpal> would work
13:39:54 <elliott> ais523_: alternate answer
13:40:03 <elliott> ais523_: he actually modified his fs to put fake RMGUARDs in every directory
13:40:06 <elliott> like Windows does
13:40:09 <ais523_> unlink(1) would work too, I think
13:40:19 <Vorpal> ais523_, probably
13:40:25 <ais523_> or unlink(2), but that would require writing a program
13:40:34 <elliott> no it wouldn't
13:40:35 <elliott> c-repl
13:41:41 <Vorpal> ais523_, I haven't been using the RMGUARD feature a lot though. I added it in, then used it in a few places.
13:42:22 <Vorpal> most places where typoing rm *~ as rm * would risk happening, would already be under version control.
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13:42:49 <Vorpal> ais523_, another obvious way is: mv RMGUARD foo; rm foo
13:43:13 <Vorpal> ais523_, besides you will notice I used a regex match there. Without anchors.
13:43:25 <ais523_> I set Emacs to backup to a different directory
13:43:42 <ais523_> partly so that rm *~ was something that I rarely actually wanted to type
13:43:48 <ais523_> which reduces the chance of typing it incorrectly
13:43:51 <Vorpal> ais523_, meh, I use many different editors. I don't think all supports that. Never seen such an option in kate for example
13:44:17 <ais523_> although I use many different editors, I mostly use Emacs for important things
13:44:22 <Vorpal> since I use both kate and emacs, (depends on what language), it would just be confusing if only one put the backups elsewhere
13:44:25 <ais523_> anyway, I'm going to go back to my office now
13:44:29 <Vorpal> cya
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13:59:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sorry, was at dentist.
14:00:16 <elliott> UN
14:00:16 <elliott> FOR
14:00:17 <elliott> FUCKING
14:00:18 <elliott> GIVABLE
14:00:27 <ais523_> gah, I'm in my office, with my laptop next to me
14:00:29 <Phantom_Hoover> BUT IT TURNS OUT MY TEETH ARE, LIKE, FINE
14:00:33 <elliott> ais523_: ALSO UNFORGIVABLE
14:00:38 <elliott> APOLOGISE PLEASE
14:00:38 <ais523_> and connecting with my desktop because the wireless here is stupid
14:00:54 <ais523_> well, my work desktop, it's not "mine"
14:00:54 <elliott> bold black is a really terrible dark grey
14:01:52 <elliott> <variable> elliott: try precmd() { [[ -z "$@" ]] && ls }
14:01:53 <elliott> thanks for this btw
14:01:54 -!- pumpkin has joined.
14:01:55 <elliott> just noticed it :D
14:02:17 <ais523_> hmm, does that ls before every command that takes no arguments?
14:02:20 <ais523_> or have I misread that?
14:02:22 <elliott> doesn't work, but
14:02:30 <elliott> ais523_: it should ls whenever you enter an empty command
14:02:37 <ais523_> aha
14:02:44 <elliott> so i can just whack enter to see a file listing
14:02:51 <elliott> as opposed to the useless default of doing nothing
14:03:00 <ais523_> the default of doing nothing isn't useless
14:03:08 <elliott> yes it is
14:03:10 <ais523_> it's very useful if the last command you end produced output that didn't end with a newline
14:03:16 <elliott> well, eys
14:03:17 <elliott> *yes
14:03:21 <elliott> but in that case you can do ";"
14:03:22 <ais523_> what are you supposed to do in that situation otherwise? press control-C?
14:04:00 <elliott> variable: i don't think precmd gets the command
14:04:03 <elliott> since it runs before the _prompt_
14:04:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:05:15 <ais523_> btw, the page linked from proggit about about:blank is great
14:05:22 <ais523_> explaining why it's so hard to render
14:05:42 <ais523_> (summary: most pages show about:blank until the rendering starts, you obviously can't do that with about:blank itself so you need special-casing)
14:06:09 <elliott> ais523_: yep
14:06:26 <elliott> hsivonen is a source of much wtfy info :)
14:06:48 <elliott> ais523_: one person in the comments said they didn't trust the author's opinions on rendering because, among other things, the markup was wrapped at 80 columns "for no reason"
14:06:55 <elliott> i cried and then committed suicide
14:07:00 <elliott> (but i got better)
14:07:11 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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14:07:33 <ais523_> I had an argument about wrapping code at 80 recently, although I can't remember why
14:07:44 <ais523_> I said 80 was a nice width for fitting two programs side by side on a screen
14:07:55 <elliott> ais523_: oh, I don't inherently like it
14:08:05 <elliott> ais523_: but dismissing someone because they do it is unforgivable
14:08:08 <elliott> :p
14:08:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:11:17 <ais523_> btw, Slashdot's also decided that the Samsung keylogger thing is a false positive
14:12:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Samsung keylogger thing?
14:12:48 <ais523_> a bunch of media sites decided Samsung were installing keyloggers on new PCs
14:12:59 <ais523_> although most of them have since retracted the claims
14:13:08 <ais523_> I was being vaguely sarcastic about it in #esoteric earlier
14:13:41 <Phantom_Hoover> What grounds did they base this on?
14:13:54 <ais523_> an antivirus program found a folder with a particular name
14:13:57 <ais523_> and didn't check its contents
14:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Indicting.
14:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Who in their right mind goes from that to keylogging?
14:15:46 <elliott> Gregor: *proven
14:15:53 <Gregor> elliott: ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe
14:16:06 <elliott> Gregor: Your letters, they are wrong.
14:16:17 <Gregor> elliott: You haven't proved that.
14:16:29 <elliott> ais523_: Tell Gregor he's speaking the wrong language.
14:16:46 <ais523_> elliott: how do you know it's not everyone else who's speaking the wrong language?
14:16:53 <elliott> ais523_: because his language sucks
14:17:22 <Gregor> My language that has the past tense of "prove" consistent with nearly every other past tense verb in the language? :P
14:17:42 <elliott> English: a consistent language.
14:17:55 <Gregor> My language sucks because it's more consistent than yours?
14:18:05 <elliott> Consistent English is ugly English :P
14:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, -en is used in several places, IIRC.
14:18:38 <ais523_> it took me several attempts to properly write a NetHack patch a while ago because of the distinction between "drawn" and "drew"
14:18:46 <ais523_> the code assumed the same word would work in both contexts
14:18:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Several, not nearly every.
14:19:21 <Gregor> Unlike eated and beated, proved is a commonly-accepted alternative to proven. In fact my spelling dictionary doesn't like "proven"
14:19:42 <ais523_> btw, vaguely on-topic: how do non-Americans here pronounce "joust", as in "BF Joust"?
14:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> But yeah, any assumption that American English is "logical" is stupid.
14:20:08 <ais523_> (the American pronunciation is almost certainly along the same lines as "route")
14:20:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, "jowst"?
14:20:15 <elliott> Gregor: I beated the shit out of your spelling.
14:20:36 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I pronounce it more like "juiced", and a friend of mine said that that was ridiculous
14:20:37 <elliott> ais523_: djyooz't
14:20:48 <elliott> i'm lying
14:20:50 <elliott> "jowst"
14:20:57 <ais523_> elliott: ouch :(
14:21:06 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, you're basically an AMERICAN
14:21:06 <elliott> >:D
14:21:10 <Phantom_Hoover> KILL YOURSELF NOW
14:21:16 <elliott> A convincing argument!
14:21:23 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: don't you have it backwards?
14:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, NO
14:21:32 <elliott> IPA: /dʒaʊst/ SAMPA: /dZaUst/
14:21:32 <elliott> Rhymes: -aʊst
14:21:35 <elliott> --[[wikt:joust]]
14:21:35 <ais523_> I seem to be the only person in the world, American or not, who doesn't use the American pronunciation
14:21:42 <ais523_> so how does that make me American?
14:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Root → rowt is not a trend.
14:21:43 <elliott> Pretty sure that means we win.
14:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, *it's not the America pronunciation.*
14:22:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover can Actually Joust, I therefore name him the authority.
14:22:05 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: so how is it pronounced in American?
14:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> *You're extrapolating from a single word.*
14:22:15 <elliott> variable: btw that doesn't work as precmd doesn't actually seem to get the last command in $@
14:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> *American
14:23:04 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, it's pronounced "jowst" in America as well, I should think.
14:23:14 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: well, indeed
14:23:16 <Phantom_Hoover> They didn't just change all the pronunciations to annoy us.
14:23:19 <ais523_> thus it's an American pronunciation
14:23:25 <ais523_> it may be a British pronunciation too
14:23:33 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
14:23:45 <ais523_> but it's absurd to say something can't be pronounced a particular way in American English just because it's pronounced that way in British English
14:23:48 <elliott> ais523_: you should drop these things to avoid giving Phantom_Hoover a heart attack
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14:31:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maan, precmd.
14:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Bloody Chinese, flaunting their fancy IPv6 connections.
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14:37:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what's the zsh prompt-set command?
14:37:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wha?
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14:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing that lets you change the prompt.
14:37:57 <elliott> ...what?
14:38:17 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, the thing you used.
14:38:23 <elliott> I didn't use anything...
14:38:31 <Phantom_Hoover> How did you set it, then?
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14:39:28 <variable> <elliott> variable: btw that doesn't work as precmd doesn't actually seem to get the last command in $@ ---> I duno. I didn't try it. Try playing around with precmd and preexec
14:39:47 <elliott> variable: I did; preexec executes for everything but the empty string. AFAICT precmd doesn't actually get the previous command :/
14:40:11 <ais523_> does precmd execute on the empty string?
14:40:16 <elliott> yes
14:40:21 <ais523_> what you could do is get preexec to set a flag, and precmd to check if it was set
14:40:28 <elliott> ouch
14:40:32 <ais523_> then if you get precmd withotu a matching preexec, the null string must have been entered
14:42:02 <elliott> ais523_: works, horribly :)
14:42:08 <variable> :-\
14:42:09 <elliott> although it needs a hack so that it doesn't ls on zsh startup
14:42:22 <variable> elliott: zsh sets some flag on startup IIRC
14:42:25 <elliott> {
14:42:25 <elliott> local executed=false
14:42:25 <elliott> preexec() { executed=true }
14:42:25 <elliott> precmd() {
14:42:25 <elliott> $executed || l
14:42:26 <variable> ie "rc files running"
14:42:28 <elliott> executed=false
14:42:30 <elliott> }
14:42:32 <elliott> }
14:42:34 <elliott> 43,1 Bot
14:42:34 <variable> elliott: can you paste your config files?
14:42:36 <elliott> ^ lexical scoping!
14:42:38 <variable> Vorpal: you too
14:42:58 <elliott> variable: my config file is just a bunch added by the installer thing, plus a few aliases, prompt, and that, but ok :P
14:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, how did you set the prompt?
14:43:29 <variable> elliott: hehe ok. I try to get ideas from other people. I don't spend much time customizing most things - but I'm in my shell - a lot
14:43:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: PROMPT=...
14:43:43 <Phantom_Hoover> You mentioned some shell thing...
14:43:43 <elliott> variable: http://sprunge.us/LAIQ
14:44:11 * Phantom_Hoover nicks elliott's prompt.
14:44:25 <elliott> variable: but this is likely to expand since i've just switched back to zsh :)
14:44:28 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: [%! %F{blue}%n@%F{blue}%m %F{magenta}%30<...<%~ %F{red}%(?..!%?!)%f]%# --> try this one :-)
14:44:35 <variable> elliott: hehe ok
14:44:43 <elliott> (been using stock bash for god knows how long)
14:45:02 <elliott> zsh: correct 'Code' to 'od' [nyae]?
14:45:07 <elliott> i don't think I like this autocorrect thing :D
14:45:22 <variable> elliott: you could use 'nocorrect' for certain commands
14:45:29 <elliott> oh wait, if I just initialise executed to true
14:45:30 <variable> like alias mkdir='nocorrect mkdir'
14:45:30 <elliott> voila
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14:45:36 <elliott> works on startup
14:45:47 * variable should run the installer :-p
14:45:54 <impomatic> Chatzilla crashed again :-(
14:45:54 <elliott> it's nice :)
14:46:02 <elliott> hmm, I should also write my own cd
14:46:05 <elliott> so that it lses after that too
14:46:09 <elliott> arguably i should just have an ls pane :D
14:46:13 <impomatic> Oh well. There's some slightly crazy Corewar Fanfic here http://annesophiecc.tumblr.com/post/4190311225/v8-fb-corewar (in French)
14:46:39 <variable> elliott: why do you want blank == ls?
14:46:54 <elliott> variable: because I seem to ls a lot... even when my mind just blanks out for a bit :D
14:46:59 * Phantom_Hoover Google translates
14:47:06 <elliott> mostly i ls a lot to get my bearings when navigating around
14:47:14 <elliott> and i never deliberately just hit enter :P
14:47:49 <elliott> hmm, seems like entering a dir as a cmd to auto-cd doesn't invoke cd command :/
14:47:53 <elliott> time for more postcmd hackery
14:47:59 <Gregor> elliott: You said you'd pay me to shut up about libc.so
14:48:05 <Gregor> I HAVEN'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT
14:48:08 <Gregor> CONSIDER PAYING :P
14:48:17 <elliott> Gregor: I DEMAND TEN EMAILS
14:48:31 <Gregor> elliott: $200
14:48:36 <impomatic> Gregor: what's libc.so? ;-)
14:48:36 <elliott> Gregor: NO DEAL
14:48:42 <variable> Gregor: what is the auction up to?
14:48:47 <variable> impomatic: new domain
14:48:50 <Gregor> impomatic: I'm trying to get the domain name libc.so.
14:48:55 <Gregor> elliott: TOO BAD THEN
14:48:59 <ais523_> impomatic: a) the filename of the most important library on a typical Linux system; b) a domain name that Gregor's in the auction for
14:49:00 <Gregor> variable: $310
14:49:04 <Gregor> variable: My $310
14:49:06 * variable WANTS A GOOD DOMAIN NAME
14:49:17 <ais523_> and he's trying to persuade people to donate money to help him buy it
14:49:21 * impomatic wants a good domain name.
14:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, pfft, that's not the most important libraryl
14:49:42 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: what is?
14:49:48 <ais523_> Gregor: are you sure http://libc.so is worth $310?
14:49:49 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You're arguing that libc isn't the most important library even though literally every other library and binary in a typical ELF Unix system depends on it?
14:49:53 <Gregor> ais523_: More.
14:50:06 <Gregor> ais523_: Also, malloc@libc.so alone is worth $310 :P
14:50:08 <elliott> Gregor: I'll pay more if you get libc.a
14:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, what about that one that actually does dynamic linking?
14:50:14 <variable> Gregor: :-\
14:50:17 <ais523_> .a isn't a TLD
14:50:25 <elliott> ais523_: create a country for the purpose, then
14:50:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't have a consistent name across Unixen.
14:50:36 * variable WANTS A GOOD DOMAIN NAME
14:50:36 * variable WANTS A GOOD DOMAIN NAME
14:50:36 <Phantom_Hoover> He said Linux.
14:50:49 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: HE said Linux. /I/ say Unix.
14:50:57 <Vorpal> <variable> Vorpal: you too <-- config files? That is rather unspecific...
14:51:08 <ais523_> I like the way you're assuming I'm male
14:51:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, and I was talking to HIM
14:51:14 <ais523_> elliott: ccTLDs are two letters, aren't they?
14:51:21 <variable> Vorpal: your bash config files from above?
14:51:24 <elliott> ais523_: BAH
14:51:29 <elliott> * variable WANTS A GOOD DOMAIN NAME
14:51:30 <Gregor> ais523_: No, I'm assuming you're Alex Smith.
14:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, yes, what with the fact that photos of you are on your damn Google results.
14:51:31 <elliott> variab.le
14:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way you assumed I assumed.
14:51:44 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I know you know I'm male
14:51:44 <Vorpal> variable, ah. You mean the .bashrc. Right.
14:51:47 <Vorpal> maybe
14:51:49 <elliott> He's just a really, really manly girl.
14:51:51 <elliott> With a beard.
14:51:52 <ais523_> but the assumption is still vaguely offensive
14:52:01 <variable> Vorpal: yeah
14:52:04 <ais523_> also, searching for "alex smith" mostly doesn't find me, it's a very common name
14:52:06 <Gregor> ais523_: Fuck off, English has no living neuter pronoun.
14:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, the assumption from the *evidence*.
14:52:10 <elliott> Gregor: they
14:52:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Which *both me and Gregor know*.
14:52:27 <variable> elliott: .le doesn't exist
14:52:33 <elliott> variable: THEN FIX THAT
14:52:35 <variable> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Internet_top-level_domains
14:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, we *all* know about you winning that prize, and that plastered pictures of you *everywhere*.
14:52:42 <Gregor> elliott: BLEH I SAY :P
14:52:52 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: it plastered one picture of me everywhere
14:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're going to be self-righteous, please at least make sure it's *justified*.
14:53:02 <elliott> ais523_: two!
14:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, same applies to pedantry.
14:53:15 <ais523_> elliott: there are two different pictures of me plastered everywhere?
14:53:15 <elliott> there was that ridiculous one in the guardian article
14:53:21 <elliott> well, ok, not plastered
14:53:24 <elliott> but it was ridiculous
14:53:25 <ais523_> oh right, I forgot that one
14:53:28 <ais523_> I agree it was ridiculous
14:53:30 <Vorpal> variable, nah, it is just the rm thing, loading ssh-agent data, and setting a PS1 basically.
14:53:43 <elliott> ais523_: please tell me you were intentionally doing your best "wtf is this" face
14:53:46 <impomatic> Its annoying that programming .com .org .info .co.uk .us .co .in .eu .biz are all owned by domain squatters :-(
14:53:47 <Vorpal> oh and the sprunge command
14:53:57 <Gregor> ais523_: Also you must be really really poor to think that $310 is so much money X-D
14:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, he's a student, so...
14:54:18 <Vorpal> variable, for reference, here is my PS1: '\[\033[01;32m\]\u@\h\[\033[01;34m\] \w \$\[\033[00m\] '
14:54:21 <ais523_> (the one on the Wolfram site was taken by a Wolframite who happened to be in Birmingham at the time and decided to meet with me; the newspaper one was taken by a journalist who went their deliberately and tried to find some technology-y thing, and I was in an EE department at the time, and they found a box of wire...)
14:54:21 <elliott> impomatic: .biz?
14:54:26 <elliott> impomatic: .biz is entirely squatters
14:54:41 <ais523_> what would be the purpose of a TLD that was entirely squatters?
14:54:47 <ais523_> as in, what's the point of squatting it?
14:54:48 <elliott> ais523_: ask whoever created .biz
14:54:53 <elliott> ok not squatters
14:54:55 <elliott> but spammers and shit
14:54:58 <elliott> viagra
14:55:00 <ais523_> ah, that makes more sense
14:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> TIL that ais523_ and Gregor are both perfectly capable of being obnoxious.
14:55:11 <ais523_> you might squat a domain in the hope that spammers buy it from you
14:55:26 <elliott> ais523_: what if you squatted a domain in the hopes that another squatter will buy it off you?
14:55:40 <elliott> ais523_: (this is also known as: the stock market)
14:55:40 <ais523_> elliott: as for the "wtf is this" face, it was "intentional" in the sense that that was my thoughts at the time
14:55:48 <ais523_> elliott: that's a bubble, clearly
14:55:55 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: define:TIL
14:56:04 <ais523_> what's your opinion on the market valuing Apple higher than Microsoft?
14:56:08 <elliott> Gregor: Tiaras Ingratiatingly Lessen
14:56:08 <ais523_> Gregor: today I learnt, mostly seen on Reddit
14:56:23 <elliott> ais523_: it probably means that apple are squatting a really good domain
14:56:27 <Gregor> ais523_: *learned elliott: PROBLEM?
14:56:32 <ais523_> elliott: haha
14:56:34 <elliott> like say viagrac1alisbusinesspillz348usaedu.biz
14:56:36 <Gregor> ais523_: (That was really at elliott :P )
14:56:39 <elliott> the most trustworthy
14:57:04 <ais523_> but Microsoft are squatting wingtiptoys.com and tailspintoys.com, surely those are worth something?
14:57:25 <elliott> $executed && ([[ $here = $HOME ]] || [[ $last_directory = $here ]]) || {
14:57:26 <Gregor> They will be in the New World Order when shoes are toys.
14:57:28 <elliott> what's wrong with this logic...
14:57:33 <ais523_> (instead of using example.com, example.net, etc., Microsoft actually maintain two domains for the purpose of using them as examples, presumably in an effort to violate standards for no good reason)
14:57:58 <elliott> ais523_: It's all part of their Evil Initiative.
14:58:02 <elliott> Whose purpose is to be evil.
14:58:06 <ais523_> Gregor: wingtipshoes don't sound particularly useful
14:58:12 <ais523_> and tailspinshoes sound very dizzy-inducing
14:58:22 <elliott> variable: ooh ooh ooh i should make preexec and precmd execute every element in a list of functions for extensibility!
14:58:22 <elliott> oh god
14:58:26 <elliott> i've started Zsh Thinking
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14:58:38 <Gregor> ais523_: ... wing tip shoes are a kind of shoes.
14:58:45 <ais523_> Gregor: seriously?
14:58:46 <Vorpal> <ais523_> but Microsoft are squatting wingtiptoys.com and tailspintoys.com, surely those are worth something? <-- wait what?
14:58:49 <variable> elliott: erm - you could already do that
14:58:50 <ais523_> what's their purpose?
14:58:54 <elliott> variable: yes! i know!
14:58:57 <elliott> variable: it would be magical!
14:58:57 <variable> elliott: typeset -A precmd or something like that
14:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, quick, implement zhhtpd and get it out of your system!
14:58:58 <Gregor> ais523_: I'm sorry that the poor working class is unaware of wing tip shoes.
14:59:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: NO
14:59:05 <elliott> zch2
14:59:10 <elliott> Gregor: *exploited
14:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a zch1?
14:59:16 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, thank you
14:59:20 <Gregor> ais523_: I'm sorry that the poor exploited working class is unaware of wing tip shoes.
14:59:22 <ais523_> Gregor: $310 is several month's worth of transport
14:59:32 <elliott> Transport to the COAL MINES
14:59:44 <ais523_> nah, you can't fit a bus in a coal mine
15:00:00 <elliott> if not executed, or here isn't home and last directory isn't here, blah.
15:00:02 <elliott> ok
15:00:04 <elliott> now to invert that
15:00:11 <Gregor> ais523_: It's also half a plane ticket to anywhere interesting, and about three weeks' meals. Your point?
15:00:16 <Vorpal> <ais523_> nah, you can't fit a bus in a coal mine <-- you can however in some iron mines.
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15:00:24 <elliott> ~(~p \/ q) = p /\ ~q
15:00:31 <elliott> executed or not (here isn't home and last directory isn't here)
15:00:32 <ais523_> Gregor: would you rather eat for three weeks, or buy a domain name?
15:00:38 <Vorpal> ais523_, probably not double deckers or articulated ones though
15:00:44 <elliott> executed or (here is home or last directory isn't here)
15:00:47 <elliott> executed or here is home or last directory isn't here
15:00:53 <Gregor> ais523_: I have the money to eat for three weeks and buy hundreds of domain names and still be in the black.
15:00:55 <elliott> *is here
15:00:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, Gregor is OLD, remember?
15:01:03 <Gregor> Surely ais523_ is older than me :P
15:01:07 <ais523_> Gregor: then why are you asking for donations?
15:01:14 <elliott> Gregor: ...lolno
15:01:17 <elliott> ais523_ is like 14.
15:01:22 <Vorpal> ...
15:01:23 <ais523_> I'm 23, almost 24
15:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's completely impossible to determine someone's age here.
15:01:39 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: my age is a matter of public record
15:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, assuming they're regular.
15:01:41 <elliott> yeah. for instance, I'm 42.
15:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, from their behaviour.
15:01:49 <Gregor> ais523_: Because buying all these domain names would not put me in the red, but it would hurt a lot and not be good for lifelong finances :P
15:02:09 <Gregor> ais523_: I've still got a budget to balance here.
15:02:14 <elliott> wtf, this code never worked in the first place
15:02:29 <ais523_> elliott: Schrödinbug?
15:02:34 <Gregor> And besides, people are getting sweet email addresses for their donations :P
15:02:39 <elliott> no, it just turns out that the other broken code i had was triggering instead
15:02:43 <elliott> but now i don't know why this isn't executing
15:02:51 <elliott> oh wait
15:02:58 <elliott> nm
15:03:14 <ais523_> Gregor: part of my issue is that it's sufficiently difficult to send money over the Internet that I don't even try
15:03:26 <ais523_> I'm still owed $10 from a couple of internet-friends of mine, but haven't asked for it as I couldn't figure out how
15:03:47 <Gregor> ais523_: I don't need donations from everyone, but I also don't need for you to be questioning the wisdom of my rather-silly-but-infinite-geek-cred purchase :P
15:04:22 <elliott> $executed && ([[ $last_directory = $here ]] || [[ $here = $HOME ]]) || {
15:04:24 <elliott> YESS
15:04:36 <elliott> ok let's try and remove that ugly nesting
15:04:52 <elliott> ~~(p \/ q) = ~(~p /\ ~q)
15:05:00 <elliott> ~(last directory != here && here = home)
15:05:02 <elliott> ~(last directory != here && here != home)
15:05:02 <elliott> that is
15:05:03 <elliott> hmm
15:05:12 <elliott> oh wait
15:05:13 <ais523_> why do you need the ~~ at all?
15:05:14 <elliott> that just expands back
15:05:14 <elliott> duh
15:05:14 <elliott> :D
15:05:16 <elliott> i'm dumb
15:05:20 <ais523_> or are you using a logic where it has a meaning?
15:05:32 <elliott> ais523_: I just want to turn p /\ (q \/ r) into something flat with sh's precedence
15:05:37 <elliott> because it's ugly
15:05:54 <elliott> ugh, the logic is broken
15:06:27 <elliott> !executed \/ (last directory != here /\ here != home)
15:06:31 <Gregor> Upon examining the so-called Edible Arrangements paradox, economists worldwide have abandoned many of the ideas that have dominated economic thought since the time of Adam Smith, arguing that the forces of supply and demand are powerless to explain the company's 45-piece line of officially licensed NASCAR-themed fruit bouquets.
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15:07:19 <elliott> ffff
15:07:26 <elliott> if not executed, do this.
15:07:33 <elliott> else if last directory is not here and here is not home, do the same.
15:07:42 <elliott> if (not executed) or (last directory is not here and here is not home), do this.
15:07:45 <elliott> HOW HARD IS THIS, ZSH
15:15:51 <elliott> if (! $executed) || ([[ $last_directory != $here ]] && [ $here != $HOME ])
15:15:55 <elliott> ais523_: does this logic make sen.
15:15:57 <elliott> sense.
15:16:13 <ais523_> I don't know, I'm not paying attention
15:16:40 <Deewiant> elliott: [[ has &&
15:16:57 <elliott> Deewiant: Would be relevant if it was even triggering properly :P
15:17:21 <Deewiant> () are subshells, I'm not sure if that would matter there
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15:17:33 <oklopol> is anyone ever truly not paying attention, or just distributing it widely enough that the nonlinearity of succeeding at thinking makes it *seem* like they're not paying any attention at all
15:17:33 <Deewiant> Also, what's $executed
15:17:45 <oklopol> this has been bugging me for seconds
15:18:35 <elliott> {
15:18:35 <elliott> local executed=true
15:18:35 <elliott> local last_directory=$(pwd)
15:18:35 <elliott> preexec() { executed=true }
15:18:35 <elliott> precmd() {
15:18:36 <elliott> local here=$(pwd)
15:18:38 <elliott> if (! $executed) || ([[ $last_directory != $here ]] && [ $here != $HOME ])
15:18:40 <elliott> then
15:18:42 <elliott> ls
15:18:44 <elliott> executed=false
15:18:46 <elliott> last_directory=$here
15:18:48 <elliott> fi
15:18:50 <elliott> }
15:18:52 <elliott> }
15:18:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Perhaps it does matter
15:19:02 <elliott> The intention is that entering a blank line causes a ls anywhere, and the directory changing to anywhere but $HOME causes an ls
15:19:10 <Deewiant> elliott: Presumably because they're local, it matters?
15:19:13 <Deewiant> I don't know, I never use locals
15:19:15 <elliott> Presumably
15:19:24 <elliott> Does [[ have ( too :P
15:19:44 <Deewiant> test does, so I'd imagine [[ does
15:20:01 <elliott> /home/elliott/.zshrc:44: parse error near `)'
15:25:54 <Ilari> 2.459 blocks used by APNIC during March.
15:27:39 <ais523_> btw, I just updated [[BF Joust strategies]] with slowpoke
15:27:50 <ais523_> the description is much, much shorter than that of waterfall3, as it's a much simpler program
15:28:36 <Gregor> ais523_: Eventually I will get around to DEFEATING YOU
15:28:38 <Gregor> (Eventually)
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15:30:02 <ais523_> meh, I seriously hope slowpoke is defeatable, and by a rather different style of program
15:30:07 <ais523_> as we'll have to change the rules if it isn't
15:30:13 <ais523_> it's been on top of the leaderboard long enough
15:30:50 <Gregor> ais523_: Nobody's really bothered though.
15:31:02 <ais523_> people are bothered periodically
15:31:11 <ais523_> I wouldn't want an invincible program to repel everyone next time
15:31:12 <elliott> !BFJOUST PERIODICALLY >>>>DIE SLOWPOKE((%(%
15:31:25 <ais523_> in fact, my next project will be trying to beat slowpoke with a defence program
15:31:32 <ais523_> that isn't specialcased just against it
15:31:35 <ais523_> in the hope that it's possible
15:31:57 <ais523_> I fear it's impossible to completely defeat timer clears with defence, but you could slow them down quite a lot
15:32:40 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+++((+)*128(-)*128)*10000
15:32:53 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 3.8
15:32:54 <ais523_> I doubt that'll do well, but I want to see how it fails
15:33:25 <ais523_> beh, beating tripwire avoiders, drawing to defence, nicely inevitable
15:34:30 <ais523_> woah, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt is a lot more promising, thoguh
15:34:32 <ais523_> *though
15:34:35 <ais523_> look at all those draws
15:34:46 <Ilari> New depletion estimate: Wednesday April 13th
15:35:32 <ais523_> what if I do it on my flag?
15:35:54 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble +++((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:35:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 11.8
15:36:22 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:36:27 <ais523_> rather worse
15:36:46 <ais523_> which is weird
15:36:53 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble ((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:36:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 12.3
15:38:11 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:38:30 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+++++<((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:38:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 13.0
15:38:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:41:21 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+[]<((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:41:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 8.0
15:42:01 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+<(-)*125>[]<((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:42:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 11.3
15:42:42 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+>+++++<<(-)*125>[]<((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:42:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 16.1
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15:45:38 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+>+++++<<(-)*125>[]<((+)*120(.)*16(-)*120(.)*16)*10000
15:45:41 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 13.7
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15:54:11 <elliott> ais523__: ridiculous fact of the week: screen is a program that compiles vt100 (and more) codes to vt100 codes
15:54:19 <ais523__> indeed, it is
15:54:27 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523_.
15:54:30 <elliott> (it's literally a terminal emulator that only has a terminal output, which is just hilarious)
15:54:39 <elliott> *-a
15:55:03 <Gregor> And yet every time I say it would be nice to have a graphical frontend for screen, people say "durp you mean konsole lololol"
15:55:33 <elliott> Gregor: Well, yeah, they're fairly correct :P
15:55:34 <quintopia> what. how is it hilarious?
15:55:50 <elliott> In that screen isn't all that special, it just happens to be the most full-featured terminal as far as organisation goes
15:55:55 <Gregor> elliott: The point is if it was a graphical frontend for screen, I could DETACH IT, leave, then screen -r from SSH
15:56:03 <elliott> quintopia: "I wrote a Python compiler. It takes a Python program and outputs the same Python program"
15:56:04 <Gregor> Why people don't get that that's the whole fucking benefit of screen is beyond me.
15:56:05 <Ilari> APNIC up 0.03: 512+3x256 to Australia, 3x128k+64k+2x256 to China, 256+/48+/32 to Hong Kong, 128k+32k to India, 1k to Philippines.
15:56:12 <elliott> "But it goes through an AST in-between, and does all kinds of analysis on it"
15:56:16 <elliott> "Then spits out the original AST"
15:56:21 <elliott> Gregor: dtach :P
15:56:26 <elliott> Gregor: But yah.
15:56:29 <Ilari> Apparently, APNIC released resevations on reseved blocks.
15:57:02 <Gregor> And yeah, you're damn right the GUI would basically be like konsole. Except then, you could actually get to your consoles without friggin' VNC
15:57:05 <Gregor> *rage*
15:57:42 <quintopia> i use screen locally...why would you need vnc to use it. i am tres confused by gregor's complaints
15:58:15 <quintopia> also, i am confused why people think the ability to detach terminal sessions from terminals is the only purpose of screen
15:58:16 <Gregor> quintopia: What I want is a graphical frontend for screen. Just something a little bit nicer than running screen in xterm, that can show me which screens are open in a tab-like layout etc.
15:58:34 <Gregor> quintopia: To me, having multiple screens and being able to detach are of equal benefit.
15:58:53 <quintopia> oh, that'd be alright i guess
15:59:13 <Gregor> And yet it doesn't exist? Why? Because if you mention the possibility, people say "lol just use konsole durp"
15:59:43 <ais523_> Ilari: what were they reserved for? emergencies?
15:59:46 <elliott> Gregor: Also because that's work.
15:59:48 <elliott> ais523_: ipv6 transition
15:59:57 <quintopia> i imagine a trivial modification to konsole would be exactly what you want though
15:59:58 <ais523_> and were they used for that purpose?
16:00:03 <ais523_> or just to delay ipv4 meltdown another few days?
16:01:05 <Gregor> quintopia: Trivial except it has to speak the screen protocol :P
16:01:24 <quintopia> Gregor: trivial
16:01:25 <Ilari> I think those blocks were considered too polluted before or something like that.
16:03:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:03:04 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
16:03:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
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16:08:43 <ais523_> !bfjoust consistency http://sprunge.us/JJcX.
16:08:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__consistency: 4.2
16:08:49 <ais523_> umm, I didn't mean the .
16:08:51 <ais523_> !bfjoust consistency http://sprunge.us/JJcX
16:08:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__consistency: 0.0
16:09:02 <ais523_> 0.0
16:09:10 <Deewiant> parse error: maximum [] nesting depth exceeded
16:09:23 <ais523_> bah
16:09:28 <ais523_> that program doesn't abbreviate using {}
16:09:36 <ais523_> let me shorten it a bit in the hope that helps
16:09:44 <elliott> wow
16:09:47 <ais523_> (what is the maximum depth?)
16:09:48 <Deewiant> Somebody hasn't heard of the ZOI rule
16:10:04 <elliott> Deewiant: Somebody hasn't done dynamic memory allocation in C
16:10:15 <elliott> seriously though, wtf, that's only like hundreds of nestings :)
16:10:22 <Deewiant> Maybe they should learn how to do it then
16:10:23 <ais523_> 2000, exactly
16:10:25 <ais523_> what is the limit?
16:10:40 <elliott> Deewiant: I was referring to you
16:10:43 <elliott> I is a: pain
16:10:44 <elliott> *It
16:10:48 <elliott> (But I is a pain, too.)
16:10:51 <Deewiant> elliott: I know, I turned it around on you
16:11:00 <elliott> Deewiant: But then I pedanticed you because fuck lsdkf
16:11:03 <Deewiant> I don't find it much of a pain
16:11:23 <ais523_> !bfjoust http://sprunge.us/ghaP
16:11:24 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
16:11:30 <ais523_> !bfjoust consistency http://sprunge.us/ghaP
16:11:34 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__consistency: 0.0
16:11:44 <elliott> hmm, i wonder if spending the money on hardware to mine bitcoins pays off :)
16:11:51 <ais523_> blecch, that's 999 nestings
16:12:05 <ais523_> fizzie! what's the [] nesting limit in your BF Joust interps?
16:12:07 <Deewiant> ais523_: Just use {}?
16:12:18 <Deewiant> Or can you not
16:12:20 <ais523_> Deewiant: if you can think of a way to condense that using {}, I'd like to hear it
16:12:37 <Deewiant> Heh, you have a different (.) count each time
16:12:42 <ais523_> indeed
16:12:49 <ais523_> that's the whole point
16:13:04 <Deewiant> Right, I just didn't really look at the program before
16:13:39 <Deewiant> ais523_: #define MAXNEST 256
16:13:47 <elliott> ais523_: honestly, we should really just embed some TC-if-not-for-limited-steps language into the bf joust interps
16:13:53 <ais523_> 256 (insert interrobang here)
16:14:00 <elliott> so we don't have to say "i couldn't use the macro because ..."
16:14:02 <elliott> and yeah, lol wut 256
16:14:10 <Deewiant>
16:14:11 <ais523_> that's not even enough to count how long a two-cycle clear takes
16:14:12 <elliott> i used the max cycle count :)
16:14:13 <Deewiant>
16:14:29 <elliott> well that's what you get for shoddy second-class joust software!!!!!!
16:14:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: man 3 malloc
16:14:55 <ais523_> anyway, I'm vaguely in favour of limiting the maximum [] nesting depth, but it should count depth post-%-expansion, not pre-
16:15:07 <elliott> Deewiant: *man 3 1000000
16:15:10 <elliott> Or whatever cycle max is
16:15:28 <elliott> (OK, so you should allocate something that big with malloc, but it shouldn't need reallocing afterwards.)
16:15:37 <elliott> (Since such a program would hit the cycle limit.)
16:15:51 <elliott> ais523_: not a fan of my embed-a-tc-language idea?
16:15:52 <elliott> :)
16:16:16 <ais523_> elliott: it'd make it too easy to put a PRNG in there and pretty much defeat defence forever and ultimately
16:16:33 <elliott> ais523_: err, no outside input
16:16:38 <elliott> so it'd be a prng with a fixed seed
16:16:48 <elliott> ais523_: it'd not be anything you couldn't preprocess manually before submitting
16:17:06 <ais523_> even a fixed-seed PRNG would be enough
16:17:11 <elliott> anyway, if the language was made esoteric enough, a prng could be a massive achievement :)
16:17:15 <elliott> ais523_: then you can do that today
16:17:18 <elliott> by doing it manually
16:17:28 <ais523_> except you can't, because it doesn't abbreviate
16:17:45 <elliott> hmm, i wonder if some govts will try cracking down on bitcoin
16:17:49 <elliott> ais523_: does it need to?
16:17:51 <ais523_> haha, I put the paren in the wrong place
16:17:59 <ais523_> elliott: yes if you want it to not be terabytes long
16:18:08 <elliott> ais523_: well, ok
16:18:37 <quintopia> i was working on a macro preprocessor for bfj before the break...lemme see how much free time i have...
16:18:53 <elliott> "In February 2011, the coverage at Slashdot and the subsequent Slashdot effect affected the value of the bitcoin"
16:18:56 <elliott> hooray!
16:19:05 <elliott> we are finally in a world where slashdot can affect the value of the money in your pocket
16:19:09 <elliott> your... virtual pocket
16:19:15 <ais523_> drove it down, or up?
16:19:22 <elliott> it doesn't say
16:19:24 <ais523_> I just don't see why people consider bitcoins valuable at all
16:19:28 <elliott> but it does have this gem: [16][17][citation needed]
16:19:31 <elliott> ais523_: because they're scarce
16:19:42 <elliott> ais523_: why do you consider $insert_fiat_currency_here valuable?
16:19:42 <ais523_> so? that doesn't make them useful in any way
16:19:45 <elliott> because it's scarce
16:19:55 <elliott> ais523_: ok, can i have $1mil?
16:19:58 <elliott> obviously it's not valuable
16:20:01 <ais523_> elliott: fiat currencies are only valuable as long as you can redeem them for something
16:20:08 <elliott> ais523_: you can redeem bitcoins for real-world cash
16:20:12 <elliott> and physical goods are sold in it
16:20:14 <ais523_> yes, and that makes no sense
16:20:22 <elliott> ...this is a circular argument
16:20:28 <elliott> it's valuable because it's scarce.
16:20:55 <ais523_> elliott: yes, that's a circular argument
16:20:56 <elliott> and it's valuable because there's a market using it.
16:21:03 <ais523_> the whole idea of fiat currencies are based on circular arguments
16:21:09 <elliott> ais523_: no, they're not
16:21:13 <elliott> they're based on fiat
16:21:15 <ais523_> however, if sufficiently many other people believe something's valuable, it's valuable for that reason
16:21:22 <ais523_> which is the only reason fiat currencies work
16:21:34 <elliott> ... it's not irrational to believe in the value of a fiat currency
16:22:15 <ais523_> woah: http://sprunge.us/gZaC
16:22:28 <ais523_> I think it's successfully locking slowpoke, at least on some tape lengths
16:22:41 <ais523_> *whoa
16:22:47 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:23:29 <ais523_> looks to be tape length 13 and up, both polarities
16:23:44 <ais523_> if I replaced the (.)*224 with a full-tape clear, it'd probably a) win, and b) be megabytes long
16:24:12 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:25:53 <ais523_> but an inline clear wouldn't work in that context
16:28:53 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:31:06 -!- elliott has joined.
16:33:19 <ais523_> elliott (in case you missed it): <ais523_> whoa: http://sprunge.us/gZaC <ais523_> I think it's successfully locking slowpoke, at least on some tape lengths
16:33:23 <elliott> saw
16:33:29 <ais523_> so looks like slowpoke is defendable after all
16:35:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:37:32 <ais523_> I shall have to find a Pokémon that's good at beating Slowpoke and name the final program after that
16:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> What's slowpoke?
16:38:00 <ais523_> a BF Joust program
16:38:06 <ais523_> also the name of a Pokémon
16:38:17 <Phantom_Hoover> And it's current king of the hill?
16:38:18 <ais523_> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#2011
16:38:21 <ais523_> and indeed
16:39:35 <elliott> pokemon good at beating slowpoke
16:39:36 <elliott> aka
16:39:38 <elliott> any pokemon
16:40:01 <ais523_> you'd be surprised
16:40:06 <elliott> ais523_: I demand you find a program that manages to win by doing absolutely nothing, and call it magikarp
16:40:15 <elliott> (Or close to absolutely nothing)
16:40:22 <elliott> (It can, say, splash around a bit)
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16:40:37 <ais523_> Magikarp @ Focus Sash = Swift Swim: Splash / Tackle / Flail / Bounce
16:40:43 <ais523_> best Magikarp build in existence
16:40:54 <ais523_> (there's not a lot Magikarp can do, so finding the perfect build for it was really easy)
16:41:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:41:31 <ais523_> (also, there's at least one video on YouTube of someone sweeping an entire enemy Ubers team with that Magikarp build, although he had to try against hundreds of opponents before he found one that fell for it)
16:42:42 <ais523_> wow, defend10 was a 2011 program? time goes by so quickly
16:43:08 <oklopol> what? is it 2012 already?
16:43:12 <oklopol> i thought it was 2011
16:43:52 <ais523_> it is 2011
16:43:55 <ais523_> that's why I'm so shocked
16:44:00 <ais523_> it was earlier this year, and yet it seems like aeons ago
16:44:29 <oklopol> idgi, if it seems like aeons ago, hasn't time moved slowly?
16:44:36 <oklopol> i think that's what people usually mean
16:45:09 <elliott> time moves quickly to allow lots of things to happen in it
16:45:12 <elliott> iguess is ais523_'s meaning
16:45:37 <ais523_> indeed
16:46:09 <oklopol> :D
16:46:30 <oklopol> well yes i'm sure "time goes quickly" can be interpreted both ways
16:46:35 <oklopol> but i've never heard it used in that meaning
16:46:38 <elliott> what is it in the games with those trainers
16:46:42 <elliott> who only ever have magikarp with only splash
16:46:48 <elliott> and they insist on battling you to the death
16:46:56 <elliott> what kind of sick pleasure do they get out of that
16:47:40 <oklopol> maybe it's the magikarp who's getting pleasure
16:47:58 <elliott> hey it's world backup day, ill ceberate by not backuping
16:48:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
16:49:07 <elliott> oh cool, tomorrow is internet jackass day, but I'll be sleeping
16:49:13 <elliott> when all the stupid is stupiding
16:49:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:49:30 <oklopol> there is an internet jackass day?
16:49:35 <oklopol> sounds like fun
16:49:35 <elliott> yes it is tomorrow
16:49:37 <ais523_> elliott: I have three things planned for it
16:49:40 <oklopol> i'll o from morning till dawn
16:49:41 <ais523_> one is a C-INTERCAL release
16:49:47 <elliott> oklopol: omg please do
16:49:48 <elliott> ...
16:49:51 <elliott> morning till dawn :D
16:49:56 <ais523_> oklopol: write a script to do that
16:49:57 <elliott> all negative hours of it
16:50:01 <ais523_> and also, that's a completely valid time period
16:50:02 <oklopol> :D
16:50:02 <elliott> ais523_: call it optbot
16:50:17 <oklopol> i would never flood by script
16:50:33 <ais523_> elliott: at least one of the other two is a secret
16:50:37 <ais523_> and the other one isn't finished yet
16:50:37 <ais523_> o
16:50:41 <oklopol> o
16:50:41 <oklopol> o
16:50:42 <oklopol> o
16:50:42 <oklopol> o
16:50:42 <oklopol> o
16:50:42 <oklopol> o
16:50:42 <oklopol> o
16:50:43 <elliott> ais523_: you're so boring.
16:50:43 <oklopol> o
16:50:43 <oklopol> o
16:50:44 <elliott> o
16:50:44 <elliott> o
16:50:44 <oklopol> o
16:50:44 <elliott> o
16:50:45 <elliott> o
16:50:45 <elliott> o
16:50:48 <elliott> o
16:50:50 <oklopol> o
16:50:50 <elliott> o
16:50:50 <oklopol> oko
16:50:51 <oklopol> okoko
16:50:51 <oklopol> okokoko
16:50:52 <elliott> o
16:50:52 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:50:53 <oklopol> okokokokoko
16:50:54 <elliott> o
16:50:54 <oklopol> okokokokokoko
16:50:56 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
16:50:56 <elliott> o
16:50:57 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
16:50:58 <elliott> o
16:50:59 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokoko
16:51:00 <elliott> o
16:51:01 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokoko
16:51:02 <elliott> o
16:51:04 <oklopol> o
16:51:04 <elliott> o
16:51:06 <elliott> o
16:51:07 <oklopol> o
16:51:08 <elliott> o
16:51:09 <oklopol> o
16:51:10 <elliott> o
16:51:10 <ais523_> o
16:51:10 <oklopol> o
16:51:10 <oklopol> oko
16:51:11 <oklopol> okoko
16:51:12 <ais523_> o
16:51:12 <oklopol> okokoko
16:51:12 <elliott> o
16:51:13 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:51:13 <oklopol> okokoko
16:51:14 <oklopol> okoko
16:51:14 <elliott> o
16:51:15 <oklopol> oko
16:51:15 <oklopol> o
16:51:16 <oklopol> o
16:51:17 <ais523_> oko
16:51:18 <elliott> o
16:51:19 <oklopol> o
16:51:20 <elliott> o
16:51:21 <ais523_> oko
16:51:21 <oklopol> o
16:51:22 <oklopol> oko
16:51:22 <ais523_> okoko
16:51:22 <elliott> o
16:51:23 <oklopol> okoko
16:51:24 <elliott> o
16:51:24 <oklopol> okokoko
16:51:25 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:51:25 <ais523_> okokoko
16:51:26 <oklopol> okokokokoko
16:51:26 <elliott> o
16:51:27 <oklopol> okokokokokoko
16:51:28 <elliott> o
16:51:29 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
16:51:30 <elliott> o
16:51:31 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
16:51:32 <elliott> o
16:51:33 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokoko
16:51:34 <elliott> o
16:51:34 <ais523_> o I have to be going now
16:51:35 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokoko
16:51:36 <elliott> o
16:51:38 <elliott> o
16:51:39 <oklopol> who doesn't
16:51:40 <elliott> o
16:51:41 <oklopol> well i don't
16:51:41 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
16:51:42 <elliott> o
16:51:44 <elliott> o
16:51:48 <elliott> o
16:51:50 <elliott> o
16:51:52 <elliott> o
16:51:54 <elliott> o
16:51:56 <elliott> o
16:51:57 <oklopol> actually i'm taking today off work so i suppose i really could o all day
16:51:58 <elliott> o
16:52:00 <elliott> o
16:52:02 <elliott> o
16:52:03 <oklopol> erm
16:52:04 <elliott> o
16:52:04 <oklopol> tomorrow
16:52:06 <elliott> o
16:52:08 <elliott> o
16:52:10 <elliott> o
16:52:12 <elliott> o
16:52:14 <elliott> o
16:52:18 <elliott> o
16:52:20 <elliott> ok
16:52:22 <elliott> kookok
16:52:24 <elliott> okokoko
16:52:26 <elliott> okokokokoko
16:52:28 <elliott> kokokoookookok
16:52:31 <elliott> fuck
16:52:32 <elliott> okokokokokokokokoko
16:52:34 <elliott> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:52:36 <elliott> okokokokokokokokokoko
16:52:38 <elliott> oko
16:52:40 <elliott> o
16:52:42 <elliott> o
16:52:44 <elliott> o
16:52:48 <elliott> o
16:52:50 <elliott> o
16:52:52 <elliott> oko
16:52:54 <elliott> o
16:52:56 <elliott> oko
16:52:58 <elliott> oooo
16:53:00 <elliott> i love our liberal attitude towards spam
16:53:02 <elliott> okokokokokokokoko
16:53:04 <elliott> oko
16:53:06 <elliott> okoko
16:53:08 <oklopol> o
16:53:08 <elliott> okoko
16:53:08 <oklopol> o
16:53:09 <oklopol> o
16:53:10 <elliott> okokoko
16:53:11 <oklopol> o
16:53:12 <oklopol> oko
16:53:12 <elliott> okokoko
16:53:12 <oklopol> oko
16:53:13 <oklopol> oko
16:53:14 <elliott> okokokoko
16:53:15 <oklopol> okoko
16:53:16 <oklopol> okoko
16:53:18 <elliott> okokokoko
16:53:18 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:53:20 <elliott> okokokokoko
16:53:22 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:53:22 <elliott> okokokokoko
16:53:24 <elliott> okokokokokoko
16:53:24 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokoko
16:53:26 <elliott> okokokokokokokoko
16:53:28 <elliott> okokokokokokokoko
16:53:29 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
16:53:30 <elliott> o
16:53:32 <elliott> that was invigourating
16:53:34 <elliott> i like how that was basically me and ais fucking up your perfect oko slopes
16:53:34 <oklopol> ukukukukukuku
16:53:39 <oklopol> ukukukukukukukukukukukukuukukuku
16:53:45 <oklopol> that's life
16:53:46 <oklopol> o
16:53:46 <oklopol> okok
16:53:59 <oklopol> ^
16:54:20 <oklopol> life is full of them imperfections
16:54:25 <oklopol> o
16:54:25 <oklopol> oko
16:54:26 <oklopol> okoko
16:54:27 <oklopol> okokoko
16:54:28 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:54:29 <oklopol> okokokokoko
16:54:30 <oklopol> okokokokokoko
16:54:32 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
16:54:33 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
16:54:35 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokoko
16:54:36 <Vorpal> hm
16:54:37 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokoko
16:54:41 <oklopol> ...
16:54:48 <oklopol> i hate swedes
16:54:53 <oklopol> o
16:54:53 <oklopol> oko
16:54:54 <oklopol> okoko
16:54:55 <oklopol> okokoko
16:54:55 <elliott> me too
16:54:56 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:54:56 <elliott> i hate swedes
16:54:56 <Vorpal> right
16:54:57 <elliott> fuck them
16:55:04 <oklopol> i hate toilets
16:55:06 <oklopol> o
16:55:07 <oklopol> oko
16:55:08 <oklopol> okoko
16:55:08 <oklopol> okokoko
16:55:09 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:55:10 <oklopol> okokokokoko
16:55:11 <oklopol> okokokokokoko
16:55:13 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
16:55:14 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
16:55:15 <Vorpal> I hate humans
16:55:16 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokoko
16:55:18 <oklopol> ...
16:55:31 <oklopol> o
16:55:32 <oklopol> oko
16:55:33 <oklopol> okoko
16:55:33 <oklopol> okokoko
16:55:34 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:55:36 <oklopol> okokokokoko
16:55:37 <oklopol> okokokokokoko
16:55:38 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
16:55:40 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
16:55:41 <Vorpal> sorry, won't interrupt you again
16:55:41 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokoko
16:55:43 <Vorpal> (after this)
16:55:45 <oklopol> okay, thanks
16:55:46 <oklopol> o
16:55:46 <oklopol> okok
16:55:48 <oklopol> ...
16:55:54 <oklopol> o
16:55:54 <oklopol> oko
16:55:55 <oklopol> okoko
16:55:56 <oklopol> okokoko
16:55:57 <oklopol> okokokoko
16:55:58 <oklopol> okokokokoko
16:55:59 <oklopol> okokokokokoko
16:56:01 <oklopol> okokokokokokoko
16:56:02 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
16:56:04 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokoko
16:56:06 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokoko
16:56:07 <oklopol> ah
16:56:09 <elliott> okokokokokokokokokokoko
16:58:14 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/10-best-alternative-operating-systems-934484
16:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god this is hilarious.
16:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It lists HURD as the first thing.
16:58:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It's all downhill from there.
16:59:00 <oklopol> alternatives to windows?
16:59:17 <elliott> alternatives to love
17:00:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lol dexos, that guy is/was on the osdev forum
17:00:09 <elliott> biggest moron ever
17:00:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hey it has inferno on it
17:00:18 <elliott> so i can't hate it
17:00:21 <elliott> 'cuz inferno is the sex
17:00:38 <elliott> i like how they illustrate openbsd with the pig-ugly default fvwm though
17:00:48 <elliott> omg furry amiga os!!
17:00:52 <elliott> cpressey will be so happy
17:00:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Furry?
17:01:03 <elliott> see mascot
17:01:10 <elliott> http://aros.sourceforge.net/images/kittymascot.png
17:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, right.
17:01:37 <elliott> 6. LoseThos supports multicore.
17:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> OH GOD I DID NOT WANT TO SEE THAt
17:01:45 <elliott> 2. How could you not list LoseThos? Google search "64-bit operating system" and what's the first altewrnative OS you see?
17:01:45 <elliott> Read more: http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/10-best-alternative-operating-systems-934484#ixzz1ICJ6yWRE
17:04:13 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm guessing Inferno implements some subset of @.
17:04:26 <elliott> It's VM Plan 9.
17:04:32 <elliott> Literally based on Plan 9.
17:04:48 <Phantom_Hoover> With the namespace thing?
17:08:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:10:31 <elliott> Yes.
17:27:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:27:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:31:31 <impomatic> No mention of Menuet http://www.menuetos.net ?
17:32:01 <Gregor> 3) Redistribution, reverse engineering, disassembly or decompilation
17:32:01 <Gregor> prohibited without permission from the copyright holders.
17:32:02 <Gregor> FAIL
17:32:09 <impomatic> Retro OS looked interesting, but it's dead :-(
17:33:57 <impomatic> Of course Itsy-OS is probably the best OS ever, but I have a slight bias ;-)
17:34:14 <elliott> plz 2 be making post about @ so it becomes the internet famouses
17:34:46 <Gregor> elliott: It has to be at least a LITTLE BIT existent first :P
17:34:55 <elliott> i've written SEVERAL bootloaders
17:35:15 * Gregor goes up and down his checklist of necessary components, then shakes his head.
17:35:21 <elliott> 1. bootloader
17:35:22 <elliott> 2. everything else
17:35:24 <elliott> i'm half done
17:35:46 <Gregor> ITYM:
17:35:49 <Gregor> 1. Bootloader
17:35:51 <Gregor> 2. Second bootloader
17:35:54 <Gregor> 3. Everything else
17:35:57 <Gregor> You're 2/3rds done
17:35:58 <elliott> 3. Third bootloader
17:36:01 <elliott> 4. Fourth bootloader
17:36:04 <elliott> 5. Sixth bootloader
17:36:08 <elliott> 6. Code to jump to first bootloader
17:36:18 <elliott> ...I like how I skipped the fifth by accident
17:36:29 <Gregor> That's just not part of @
17:36:33 <Gregor> Has to be written for other reasons.
17:36:37 <Gregor> 7. ...
17:36:39 <Gregor> 8. PROFIT
17:36:58 <elliott> @ has totally eliminated the antiquated notion of a fifth bootloader by replacing it with orthogonal hookers.
17:37:11 <Gregor> WOW
17:39:09 <elliott> impomatic: btw why does itsy-os even have a memory allocator :D
17:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> OK I need to work on my stupid physics thing now.
17:42:03 <elliott> Why is aptitude so slow nowadays X_X
17:42:27 <impomatic> elliott: I just thought it belongs in the kernel. It'll have process management and ipc soon. Then I'll work on the Forth again :-)
17:42:58 <elliott> impomatic: All a kernel needs is something to load some bytes from a disk and jump to them, plus a keyboard interrupt! :-P
17:43:05 <impomatic> I'll port it to the MSP430 as soon as my free devboard arrives
17:43:22 <Gregor> elliott: Why does it need a keyboard interrupt?
17:43:24 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:43:27 <elliott> Gregor: C:\>
17:43:45 <Gregor> elliott: That COULD be implemented by whatever your default init/shell/whatever program is.
17:44:02 <Gregor> elliott: All it needs is to be able to load that program :P
17:44:11 <elliott> Gregor: That's true... but then it'd just be something that loads some FAT-12 (or whatever) bytes and jumps to them.
17:44:17 <elliott> And it'd have to have a default program.
17:44:21 <elliott> Which the OS would not really function without.
17:44:24 <elliott> So it'd just be a not-even-kernel.
17:44:26 <Gregor> AKA a bootloader? <trollface/>
17:44:46 <elliott> So for honesty, an OS is a FAT-12 loader, a keyboard interrupt, and a tiny prompt using the two :P
17:47:27 <impomatic> I have a loader that finds a file on FAT-12 or FAT-16 disks. I need to make it work with FAT-32 at some point.
17:47:57 <elliott> Who needs this "FAT-32" of which you speak
17:48:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god I'm going to have to use GIMP
17:48:18 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: COME TO THE DORK SIDE
17:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> HOW
17:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> DOES IT MEAN I DON'T HAVE TO USE GIMP
17:49:02 <Gregor> Using the GIMP /is/ coming to the dork side :P
17:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> DAMMIT
17:49:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, so I wasn't *already* on the dork side?
17:51:02 <Gregor> Apparently not!
17:51:20 <Gregor> I submit http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31917308&l=75ffb3329d&id=1055580469 as evidence.
17:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I'm already failing to draw an arrow.
17:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> That's a good sign.
17:53:10 <Phantom_Hoover> That there are tutorials for this amuses me.
17:53:55 <elliott> Says the guy using one.
17:54:07 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh
17:54:08 <Gregor> Burn
17:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean that it's *necessary* at all.
17:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Your image editor should not be that unintuitive.
17:54:37 <elliott> * Phantom_Hoover expertly defects blame
17:54:41 <elliott> *deflects
17:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> * elliott fails to detect joke, attempts to cover for self
17:55:27 <elliott> ur mom
17:55:37 <Gregor> Oh, you two.
17:55:44 <Gregor> SO locked in your matrices of solidity.
17:56:10 -!- _MERLiN_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:56:20 <Gregor> D-8
17:56:36 <elliott> (Gregor's term for being straight)
17:56:54 <Gregor> HALP without _MERLiN_ what shall we do?!
17:56:59 -!- _MERLiN_ has joined.
17:57:03 <Gregor> Oh, *whew*
17:57:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot work out to draw a *line*.
17:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> *how to
17:57:24 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Click. Shift-click.
17:57:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: try inserting anti retard pills into ur miiin`d
17:57:47 <elliott> i should make a keyboard macro that inputs my password so i don't have to type it out for sudo
17:58:03 <oklopol> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
17:58:12 <oklopol> god that felt good
17:58:21 <elliott> oklopol: it's like conversational masturbation
17:58:37 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot work out to draw a *line*. <-- which software?
17:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> GIMP
17:59:09 <elliott> adj
17:59:10 <elliott> sdojifgsjhirkh
17:59:11 <elliott> trjo
17:59:12 <elliott> ruined your meme
18:00:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well gimp is not a vector graphics program, depending on what you want to do, something like inkscape might be better. However to force a straight line I think it is as Gregor said above.
18:00:42 <Vorpal> which indeed doesn
18:00:47 <Vorpal> doesn't* make that much sense
18:01:12 <Vorpal> it has the advantage of being quick to use once you know it however
18:05:57 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to radicalpumpkin.
18:06:07 <elliott> radicalpumpkin: NOOOOoo
18:06:23 <radicalpumpkin> REVOLUTION
18:07:04 <elliott> radicalpumpkin: in the spirit of http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_livqq7q0d11qitcsyo1_500.png and radical language reform
18:07:08 <elliott> I propose you become radicalananas
18:07:08 <elliott> oh wait
18:07:09 <elliott> that's pineapple
18:07:11 <elliott> not pumpkin
18:07:13 <elliott> THINGS I SHOULD DO:
18:07:13 <elliott> - READ
18:07:44 <radicalpumpkin> my twitter avatar is a pwnapple
18:07:53 <radicalpumpkin> cucurbita?
18:08:10 <elliott> pornapple
18:27:53 <Phantom_Hoover> MORE GIMP NEWS
18:27:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot draw anything.
18:28:02 <Phantom_Hoover> At all.
18:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I click on the image and nothing happens.
18:28:34 <Gregor> You are made of so much fail :P
18:29:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: layers
18:30:04 <elliott> EVERY SOFTWARE EVER has layers.
18:33:28 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31917308&l=75ffb3329d&id=1055580469 <-- this may not be the greatest shooping ever, but I made it in the GIMP.
18:33:37 <elliott> STOP LINKING TO THAT
18:33:53 <Gregor> BUT I <3 IT
18:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, what the hell is the point of it?
18:34:07 <elliott> Nothing.
18:34:09 <elliott> It is dada art.
18:34:14 <elliott> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GaKaGwch0U)
18:34:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen that.
18:34:37 <elliott> Well then.
18:35:06 <Gregor> What I really don't get is the people who don't get it AFTER seeing that >_<
18:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't get the Barney.
18:35:22 <elliott> Also known as "people of lesser intelligence"
18:35:27 <elliott> Gregor: TBH it looks nothing like a gang fight :P
18:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, right, that bit in the chorus.
18:36:13 <Gregor> elliott: Hey, finding a gang fight backdrop was friggin' impossible
18:37:05 <Gregor> It just so happens that we only see one corner of the gang fight is all :P
18:37:19 <Gregor> The blog post that was from claims one of those people is dead, so that's a gang fight, right?
18:38:03 <elliott> X-D
18:38:06 <elliott> CHEERFUL
18:38:11 <elliott> Link :P
18:38:15 <Gregor> I didn't keep it.
18:38:33 <Gregor> (That's right, I steal with SO LITTLE REMORSE)
18:38:44 <elliott> USE HISTORY
18:39:04 <Gregor> elliott: Use I'm not at home :P
18:39:43 <elliott> Gregor: RUN HOME
18:47:30 <oklopol> if possible, i find Gregor's picture even worse after hearing the song
18:47:47 <elliott> :D
18:48:49 <oklopol> the original singer has an incredibly ugly voice
18:48:51 <oklopol> i like it
18:49:20 <oklopol> the lyrics hurt my brain
18:49:20 <elliott> oklopol: um the ORIGINAL singer is bob dylan :|
18:49:25 <elliott> PHILISTINE
18:49:28 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0&feature=related
18:49:30 <oklopol> well this homo
18:49:38 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FISHEO3gsM ;; the lyrics are deep philosophical poetry.
18:49:47 <elliott> Listen and you will understand.
18:50:15 <oklopol> and hy homo i meant the girl
18:50:38 <oklopol> now that i realize there's another homo rapping it up, maybe that's worth clarifying
18:52:05 <oklopol> oh now i get it
18:52:13 <elliott> yes.
18:52:15 <elliott> sunday comes afterward.
18:53:33 <oklopol> the way dylan is doing this this is actually pretty decent
18:53:44 <elliott> xD
18:53:52 <elliott> sorry to break your heart, it's not actually dylan :(
18:54:01 <oklopol> well i don't care, it's funny done this way
18:54:05 <oklopol> i have no idea who dylan is
18:54:23 <elliott> just this random dude.
18:54:27 <elliott> nobody important.
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18:55:29 <oklopol> the "partying partying yeeah" thing could not be more sarcastic
18:58:01 <oklopol> so is she really worthy of being compared to justin bieber?
18:58:05 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4vLhJuKHxg&feature=related
18:59:48 <elliott> oklopol: my brain can't really compare badnesses at such a low level
19:00:11 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF6LJ1BxEkc&feature=related <<< this guy here is totally locked in his matrix of solidity
19:00:46 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNe8eDLENSk i legit like this version
19:03:34 <oklopol> that's nice yeah
19:06:18 <oklopol> should've added some sorta low crackling sound when the black guy came and then even more treble in the chorus after
19:06:28 <elliott> xD
19:06:33 <elliott> just end it with white noise
19:06:35 <oklopol> that was kind of still
19:06:37 <elliott> and screaming faces
19:09:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Ridiculous advert of the day: "Advice about girlfriend"
19:09:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Lest you think this is by some Russians, it is by Childline.
19:10:10 -!- _MERLiN_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:10:13 <elliott> X-D
19:10:49 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Viu3ATQmYE4&NR=1 i agree with her
19:11:54 <oklopol> but i don't like licking girls' faces when they are wearing that pimple disappearance maker thing
19:12:18 -!- _MERLiN_ has joined.
19:13:11 <oklopol> youtube surfing is kinda gay, feels more like the cantor set than the real line
19:13:15 <elliott> xD
19:13:27 <oklopol> get it, because it's not path connected
19:13:50 <elliott> ...
19:18:02 <olsner> I don't get it
19:18:43 <oklopol> well let e>0 be like really really small
19:18:45 <oklopol> right
19:18:53 <oklopol> consider two points x and y on the real line
19:19:26 <oklopol> you can like find points x = z_1, z_2, ..., y = z_k such that d(z_i, z_{i+1}) < e for all relevant i
19:19:47 <oklopol> due to the fact it's path connected, you can take a continuous path from x to y, just cut it into pieces
19:19:56 <oklopol> how about the cantor set then?
19:20:12 <oklopol> well no can do man, you can do e-jumps for hours and hours
19:20:18 <oklopol> and you'll never get farther than e away
19:20:34 <olsner> right, so that's what path-connected means for real numbers.. what's the cantor set?
19:20:57 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, that thing?
19:21:07 <Phantom_Hoover> The one where you take out the middle third of a line?
19:21:12 <oklopol> well here i'm referring by cantor set to the symbolic dynamics version of reals, the infinite sequences over a finite alphabet with a certain metric that's not the same as for the usual reals
19:21:35 <olsner> mmkay
19:21:37 <oklopol> the metric is that you just see how many of the first symbols of x and y agree
19:21:51 <oklopol> so if you e-jump, you will just change a finite number of "digits" in the beginning
19:23:35 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWthNTQeWo8&feature=relmfu <<< i'm me!
19:23:56 <olsner> is *that* oklopol!?
19:24:21 <oklopol> why does that surprise you
19:25:48 <oklopol> for the last 20 years i have struggled with who i am. it's only now, that i have? the confidence to accept who i am, and what i can pass on to others. if eveyone gave a little bit of their heart to help other's, then the world would be a better place!
19:25:48 <oklopol> Keep doing what you are doing Arielle, as you put a smile on a lot of people's faces :D and for that, you and your video get 3 <3 <3 <3, from me :)
19:25:48 <olsner> because I expected something else, obviously
19:25:58 <oklopol> what did you expect?
19:27:00 <Gregor> Actually if everyone gave a bit of their heart to help others, then a massive number of people would die from complications and the remainder mostly wouldn't live as long what with the missing bit of heart.
19:27:29 <Gregor> But then, maybe I'm just locked in my matrix of solidity.
19:27:32 <oklopol> Gregor: yeah real mature
19:27:37 <oklopol> we're talking about real issues here
19:27:57 <elliott> Gregor: SO SOLID
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19:31:25 <Gregor> oklopol: Uhh, no, we're not talking about real issues here. You can't just decree that we are after talking about toal BS for an hour :P
19:31:35 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:31:52 <Gregor> This is #esoteric , after all.
19:32:02 <Gregor> The matrix of solidity.
19:32:07 <oklopol> umm, it's friday in like 2 hours here
19:32:22 <oklopol> i'm so going to break out from my matrix of solidity
19:32:29 <Gregor> D-8
19:32:29 -!- elliott_ has joined.
19:32:32 <Gregor> HOW?!
19:32:35 <oklopol> i mean for a while. i'm not superman.
19:32:38 <olsner> unsolidify the matrix of solidity?
19:32:47 <oklopol> Gregor: erm well figuratively.
19:33:38 <Gregor> Oh
19:33:50 <Gregor> Then I guess I'm still trapped *sobblecopter*
19:34:02 <oklopol> well that's life for ya
19:34:13 <oklopol> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
19:34:38 <Gregor> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
19:34:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:51:36 <oerjan> <olsner> unsolidify the matrix of solidity?
19:51:52 <oerjan> dissolve it in ethanol, it's the finnish way
19:52:39 * oklopol grabs another beer
19:52:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Or melt it.
19:52:41 <Gregor> Spoken like someone locked within their matrix of solidity.
19:52:50 * Phantom_Hoover grabs a blowtorch
19:53:27 <Gregor> RIP Phantom_Hoover \ 2004-2011 \ He tried to escape his matrix of solidity
19:53:44 <Phantom_Hoover> 2004?
19:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Where did that come from?
19:54:03 <Gregor> Surprised I figured out the correct year so easily?
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19:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wondering if you just made up a random number.
19:57:05 <olsner> not just any random number, 2004!
19:57:29 -!- bauttar has joined.
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19:57:44 <Phantom_Hoover> TO THE DEVICE
19:58:01 -!- bauttar has left.
20:00:20 <oklopol> you and your crazy
20:13:08 <Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI
20:15:34 <oklopol> i can tickle myself
20:15:45 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
20:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, yeah, that basically sums it up.
20:16:57 * Phantom_Hoover throws the axion conduit into phase 3.
20:17:14 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Client Quit).
20:17:20 <Deewiant> I was just noting that my life hasn't been measurably affected as of yet
20:17:44 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:18:56 <olsner> ooh, reached the bottom of my desk: found some terva leijona!
20:19:11 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, yeah, the Device will do that.
20:21:33 <Zwaarddijk> olsner: ever dissolved it in alcohol?
20:21:55 <olsner> yup!
20:22:04 <Zwaarddijk> (preferrably a mixture of cheap cognac and ~vodka)
20:22:15 <olsner> I've only tried it with vodka
20:22:33 <Zwaarddijk> in finland there's this bottled product, "jaloviina" (ädelbrännvin)
20:22:47 <Zwaarddijk> which was cheap cognac for people thta couldn't afford the real thing
20:22:56 <Zwaarddijk> there's two varieties of it, * and ***
20:23:06 <Zwaarddijk> *** is three parts cognac, one part vodka, the other ... well, you can guess
20:28:45 <olsner> does the cognac do a lot compared to just mixing it with vodka?
20:30:41 <Zwaarddijk> yeah but
20:30:54 <Zwaarddijk> I think you can get jaloviina on the ferries?
20:31:05 <olsner> I dunno, I don't recognize it
20:31:06 <Zwaarddijk> if you ever go to finland
20:31:39 <olsner> I'll try to remember it for next time :)
20:31:41 <Zwaarddijk> it does change the flavour a bit, not revolutionarily much but somewhat
20:32:12 <oklopol> swor-ditch: were you doing a master's or a bachelor's in complexity theory
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20:36:58 <oklopol> hey i just realized that's what your nick means
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20:38:48 <Zwaarddijk> bachelor's.
20:38:52 <Zwaarddijk> so nothing really interesting
20:39:11 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: so try figure out what it's in Finnish then?
20:39:14 <oklopol> well i kind of assumed because it doesn't really sound like a research topic but a reading topic
20:39:15 <oklopol> but
20:39:28 <Zwaarddijk> yeah it's not a research topic
20:39:28 <oklopol> the utu it department rarely gives out topics that interesting
20:39:48 <oklopol> more like http - the way of the future or an elephant?
20:39:55 <Zwaarddijk> our prof Ion Petre had it as one suggestion, but most of the suggestions were way more boring
20:40:00 <Zwaarddijk> waitasec I'll find the full list
20:40:09 <oklopol> "<Zwaarddijk> oklopol: so try figure out what it's in Finnish then?" what?
20:41:04 <oklopol> my bachelor's thesis at the it dep was pretty lame and to quote my supervisor, i could've easily passed it as a master's thesis
20:41:19 <Zwaarddijk> https://xprog28.cs.abo.fi/ro.nsf/141b8735bd22ff31c225700600473a01/3ee2c54d808c7ed3c22577180023004d/$FILE/KNrubriker2011.pdf
20:41:33 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: my nick is a somewhat bad translation of my surname
20:41:46 <oklopol> that's what i said, yes
20:41:51 <oklopol> oh
20:41:57 <oklopol> you mean it actually means something slightly different?
20:42:14 <Zwaarddijk> dijk originally meant ditch
20:42:17 <oklopol> i have no idea what language Zwaarddijk could be
20:42:29 <Zwaarddijk> but now it means the inverse of a ditch
20:42:39 <Zwaarddijk> the mound of dirt you leave on one side while digging the ditch
20:42:43 * Phantom_Hoover cheers
20:42:53 <oerjan> the way of an elephant
20:42:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I beat Minesweeper on hard for the third time!
20:43:05 <oklopol> what was your time
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20:43:10 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: language?
20:43:24 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: dutch, because I figured that's the only other lang to use -ditch (or something similar) as a suffix in surnames
20:43:31 <Zwaarddijk> but uh, my surname is finnish
20:43:33 <Zwaarddijk> of course.
20:43:36 <oklopol> oh i actually figured it might be dutch because of dijk
20:43:45 <oklopol> but zwaard sounded a bit too... african
20:44:23 <oklopol> ...actually maybe it reminded me of africa because of that copy of dutch they speak in africa
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20:44:53 <Zwaarddijk> afrikans
20:44:58 <Zwaarddijk> *afrikaans
20:45:03 <oklopol> i know
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20:47:29 <fizzie> Heh, Interspeech 2011 paper submission deadline was supposed to be today, and there was a note that it will not be extended as the paper submission system needs to shut down for "scheduled maintenance that cannot be rescheduled".
20:47:46 <fizzie> Now in place of that note there is "Due to the overwhelming number of requests, the INTERSPEECH 2011 Technical Commitee decided to allow authors to "upload" their final paper version till April 7th in the "check the status page" of the paper submission system, but a draft version "must" be submitted by March 31st. "
20:48:47 <oerjan> murphy's law means that if they _had_ insisted on the deadline, their computers would have crashed a day early.
20:49:27 <fizzie> Every conference seems to every time do the extension thing, at least a day or two, usually a week.
20:49:42 <fizzie> Just when I'm all "ah, now I don't need to think about this stuff any longer, the deadline's past".
20:49:57 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: based on the first few i read, your worst topics are better than utu's worst
20:50:01 <oklopol> erm
20:50:02 <oklopol> utu's best
20:50:51 <fizzie> Also their very stupid animated "sponsors" mini-banner thing is done as a Java applet, and the plugin takes 300 megabytes of real memory to shuffle those 120x60 banners around.
20:51:00 <fizzie> "Applet by Gokhan Dagli,www.appletcollection.com"
20:51:19 <fizzie> Color me unimpressed.
20:51:45 <oklopol> i haven't quite grasped to point of conferences yet
20:51:52 <oklopol> *the
20:52:45 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: otoh, it isn't mandatory to pick any topic out of those
20:52:53 <Zwaarddijk> surely you can also pick other topics?
20:52:55 <fizzie> It's a publication venue, and the generation of publications (that "count", i.e. are peer-reviewed to some degree) is the ultimate goal of all.
20:53:00 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: actually just after i stopped reading, topics started getting pretty bleh
20:53:13 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: you can, and i did
20:53:20 <Zwaarddijk> yeah I'd say most of those are pretty bleh
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20:53:38 <oklopol> well the biocomputing stuff sounds like it could be interesting
20:53:49 <oklopol> and the quantum stuff why not
20:54:10 <oerjan> "make your own godzilla bio-robot!"
20:54:13 <oklopol> also if you haven't done simulated annealing and other shit like that to death when you were 5, that's certainly fun stuff as well
20:54:15 <Zwaarddijk> all of those were ion petre's stuff no?
20:54:18 <oklopol> well yes
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20:55:03 <Zwaarddijk> he's the only guy in the entire department to have interesting stuff
20:55:11 <Zwaarddijk> I think patrick sibelius could do interesting stuff too if he wanted
20:55:22 <Zwaarddijk> (he probably knows complexity science just as well as petre)
20:55:29 <oerjan> the real godzilla was of course just a japanese college project with too many programming bugs
20:55:39 <Zwaarddijk> but he just suggested topics like "the history of formal logics"
20:56:10 <oklopol> EN KORT HISTORIK VER PREDIKATLOGIKEN (ven mjlig som gradu) xD
20:56:28 <oerjan> vad ljuvligt
20:56:37 <Zwaarddijk> yes.
20:56:41 <oklopol> that's one cool topic for a cs master's thesis :D
20:56:59 <Zwaarddijk> it was predicate logic even, so ...
20:57:02 <Zwaarddijk> rather meh.
20:57:14 <Zwaarddijk> and that guy really knows his logic and formal languages and complexity shit.
20:57:27 <Zwaarddijk> I just think he's lazy when it comes to advising
20:57:27 <oerjan> a complex, but formal guy
20:58:49 <oklopol> advising required for bachelor's: browse the thing when it's done.
21:03:36 <Zwaarddijk> yes
21:03:42 <Zwaarddijk> well
21:03:49 <Zwaarddijk> ion petre did suggest a few books
21:04:10 <Zwaarddijk> so ... I guess an additional five minutes there
21:04:22 <oklopol> yes i was totally oversimplifying
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21:04:36 <Zwaarddijk> no really, I haven't really interacted with him since then at all?
21:04:50 <Zwaarddijk> I figure maybe I should have but ... meh
21:05:33 <fizzie> "Ion Petre" sounds like a superhero.
21:05:34 <oklopol> i didn't really have any interaction where we actually talked about the contents of my bachelor's thesis
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21:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
21:18:49 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that's a matter of time before that's the rig that hardcore gamers want, i can just believe that :)
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21:19:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> What is MERLiN?
21:25:24 <oerjan> magic enhanced reverse living intelligent node
21:30:33 -!- augur has joined.
21:31:32 <fizzie> Sounds a bit like VALIS.
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21:35:27 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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21:47:38 <Gregor> I'M FREAKING
21:47:38 <Gregor> OUT
21:48:08 <fizzie> Sounds libc.so-related.
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21:50:17 <Gregor> fizzie: That's because it is!
21:50:28 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm in the lead but the margin between the current value and my max is INSUFFICIENT
21:50:35 <fizzie> Ha, knew it. Nothing else gets you so... how is it that they say, hot and bothered?
21:50:49 <Gregor> Brits say that :P
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21:52:00 <Gregor> I'm continuing to bother #esoteric because ZERO people from this channel have helped me out here :P
21:52:57 <fizzie> Yes, we never put our money where our mouth is.
21:53:28 <Gregor> Actually since in this case everybody's just said "You ain't got a chance in hell LOLOLOL" you're putting your money exactly where your mouth is.
21:53:44 <Gregor> s/everybody/everybody in this channel/
21:54:11 <oklopol> i would certainly give you money if you were doing something even remotely interesting
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21:54:23 <oklopol> like buying the vierergruppe
21:54:25 <fizzie> Ack pthbbth bleh, dirty money in mouth.
21:54:26 <Gregor> oklopol: <libc symbol>@libc.so email addresses ARE interesting
21:55:05 <oklopol> not really
21:55:13 <oerjan> fizzie: but but, cocaine!
21:55:22 <Gregor> oklopol: If they're not interested in them, then you're made of FAIL
21:55:40 <oklopol> no
21:55:58 <oklopol> i'm tired of arguing with you ->
21:56:08 <Gregor> We're arguing? :P
21:56:16 <cpressey> < Gregor> I'm continuing to bother #esoteric because ZERO people from this channel have helped me out here :P
21:56:37 <cpressey> one concludes that perhaps libc isn't very esoteric
21:56:45 <Gregor> Hahaha, that is true :P
21:57:04 <oklopol> Gregor: you're right, maybe it was more like a flamewar
21:57:05 <Gregor> But I don't want to harass ##unix , I don't know them and they'd probably yell at me :P
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21:57:48 <oklopol> dleep
21:57:49 <oklopol> ->
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22:08:43 <cpressey> oh, "dleep" was a typo for "sleep"
22:09:02 <cpressey> i didn't figure it out until i saw the arrow on the next line
22:09:07 <oerjan> ARE YOU SURE OF THAT
22:09:31 <libc\x2Eso> It was a typo of oklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklvosleep
22:09:32 <oerjan> maybe it was just a glitch in oklopol's robotic circuits
22:09:51 <libc\x2Eso> That 'v', however, was a typo of ctrl+v :P
22:09:56 <cpressey> it does sound like the kind of sound a glitching robot circuit would make
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22:31:26 <libc\x2Eso> STRESS TIMES A BAJILLION
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22:32:08 <oerjan> have you entered that "extend 24 hours at a time" period yet?
22:32:14 <libc\x2Eso> No
22:32:15 <libc\x2Eso> :P
22:32:27 <oerjan> that's when you can _really_ start stressing
22:32:50 <libc\x2Eso> I will have so much stress that it kills people near me at that time :P
22:33:27 <oerjan> *being stressed
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22:41:44 <cpressey> actually "stressing" is perfectly grammatical in modern english
22:41:51 <libc\x2Eso> Yup
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22:41:55 <cpressey> for better or worse
22:42:28 <cpressey> also, it looks like the next four languages to be supported in yoob will be: SMETANA, Qdeql, Sceql, and Ale, for no good reason.
22:42:31 <cpressey> later.
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