←2011-04-08 2011-04-09 2011-04-10→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:00:20 <cheater00> zzo38: programs can also make you unhappy
00:00:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I know what you meant about APL's name, from the context. Yes I know you meant that.
00:00:46 <Sgeo> zzo38, ok, sorry, wsn't sure
00:00:48 <Sgeo> asnt'
00:00:49 <Sgeo> wasn't
00:00:56 <ZOMGMODULES> *
00:01:16 <zzo38> cheater00: I suppose it can, but I am not intention to make the program of unhappy. The program is meant for its use.
00:01:25 <Sgeo> Obviously, I am King of the Jews... erm, Typos
00:01:38 <ZOMGMODULES> I find it interesting that every modern language's "Why X?" FAQ entry includes the rhetorical question "Does the world really need another language?"
00:01:52 <cheater00> zzo38: what i am saying is, when making a program always make sure to think of the user's feelings!
00:02:01 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: how would it ever have had any of my influences anyway?
00:02:01 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: apex's will instead include "Does this new language really need the world?"
00:02:09 <elliott> "No. No it doesn't. We forced it into the world."
00:02:19 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: hey you exerted _vague_ influence :D
00:02:33 <Sgeo> elliott, is apex the new name of @?
00:03:40 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: is this some kind of horrid reverse psychology
00:03:41 <oerjan> the apex of naming
00:03:55 <ZOMGMODULES> Ima designing Bizaaro-Pixley
00:04:00 <ZOMGMODULES> (working title)
00:04:07 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i guess i'll uh
00:04:07 <elliott> hmm
00:04:11 <elliott> what was that one thing you didn't want apex to do
00:04:14 <elliott> i think i've forgotten :(
00:04:40 <Sgeo> Allow apex to continue its non-existence?
00:04:47 <ZOMGMODULES> Bizaaro-Pixley is: statically typed: has 'eval' instead of 'quote': has only pairs and symbols: has some other crap you'd never see in Scheme
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00:05:04 <elliott> how do you have a literal symbol?
00:05:05 <zzo38> ZOMGMODULES: What is Bizaaro-Pixley (other than that)?
00:05:09 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: too late for MY considered opinion
00:05:13 <elliott> cons up a list of lists-representing-numerals and convert that?
00:05:24 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:05:28 <ZOMGMODULES> a literal symbol is a bareword. a pair is: [hi there]
00:05:38 <ZOMGMODULES> or maybe (hi . there), I dunno
00:05:58 <ZOMGMODULES> let's go with <hi there>
00:06:00 <ZOMGMODULES> no
00:06:04 <ZOMGMODULES> html will kill me
00:06:23 <ZOMGMODULES> can't be [] because that's eval
00:06:33 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: {hi there}
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00:06:58 <elliott> also, eval has syntax? perverse. i like it.
00:07:12 <ZOMGMODULES> it has to because otherwise it sucks
00:07:17 <zzo38> Then use {}
00:07:33 <ZOMGMODULES> for the purposes of demonstration I shall use {} but I am not sold on it
00:07:39 <zzo38> OK
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00:08:14 <zzo38> cheater00: Have you even *seen* my program? Otherwise how can you know?
00:08:39 <cheater00> zzo38: i never opined about your program
00:08:43 <ZOMGMODULES> so: {hi there} evaluates to {hi there}. {cons {a b}} evaluates to {cons {a b}}. but [{cons {a b}] evaluates to {a b}. [{cons {[a] [b]}] does what you'd normally expect (cons a b) to do, in Scheme
00:08:51 <cheater00> except of the name, that is
00:09:17 <zzo38> cheater00: O, OK. But how can you judge the book by only its name?
00:09:48 <cheater00> zzo38: <cheater00> zzo38: i never opined about your program
00:09:52 <zzo38> ZOMGMODULES: Is the {} mismatched, or is supposed to be like that?
00:10:29 <zzo38> cheater00: Then how can you know if it is correct name?
00:11:00 <cheater00> zzo38: i can judge a book's cover without reading the book.
00:11:19 <zzo38> Yes you can, but how can you judge if it is the correct cover for that book?
00:11:35 <cheater00> have i ever said anything about whether it is the correct name for your program?
00:11:43 <olsner> flrgbl
00:12:14 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: so [] is not eval, it is unquote
00:12:15 <zzo38> You said is happy, but that should not be relevant except the program? If you just want to make it happy, you can make anything else, too.
00:13:15 <cheater00> wat
00:13:27 <zzo38> I have written some Bohlen-Pierce musics recently but I do not have it available right now sorry
00:13:51 <zzo38> cheater00: ? Stop cheating please ???
00:14:11 <cheater00> zzo38: start english please?
00:14:13 <cheater00> :D
00:15:17 <zzo38> Can you play Bohlen-Pierce musics too?
00:17:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Toon guide).
00:17:33 <zzo38> I only made Bohlen-Pierce musics with no more than one note played at one time, so far, because I don't know how to make chord and stuff like that with Bohlen-Pierce musics.
00:17:53 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: well, it's *an* eval. and yes, i missed a close }
00:19:26 <ZOMGMODULES> {let {{a b} a} -> {let {{a b} a} ... [{let {{a b} [a]}] -> b
00:19:40 <olsner> thatsnotenglish
00:19:55 <ZOMGMODULES> but the snazzy part comes from that session where oerjan and cpressey were abusing Haskell
00:20:41 <zzo38> It still looks like unmatched
00:20:47 <olsner> oh, right, when the snazzy was in the happening
00:21:23 <ZOMGMODULES> [{let {{[{let {c a} c}] b} [a]}] -> b
00:21:31 <ZOMGMODULES> unless i missed a } in there too, i keep doing that
00:21:47 <olsner> I gather that's quite the something-or-other
00:21:48 <ZOMGMODULES> symbols can be expressed
00:22:39 <ZOMGMODULES> Bizaaro! Bizaaro! Bizaaro!</bizaaro>
00:22:57 <olsner> *pizzaro?
00:23:12 * olsner expresses symbols
00:24:31 <ZOMGMODULES> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvW-ZGNjBYc
00:25:26 <olsner> awesome
00:27:38 <ZOMGMODULES> now i have to remember enough haskell to implement it
00:29:18 <ZOMGMODULES> Expr ::= bareword | "{" Expr Expr "}" | "[" Expr "]"
00:29:20 <ZOMGMODULES> that looks right
00:29:22 <ZOMGMODULES> ish
00:31:38 <ZOMGMODULES> Hello Parsec my old friend
00:31:38 <olsner> right ish != right
00:32:01 <olsner> i've come to talk to you again
00:32:32 <olsner> about a parser so soft creeping, bla-bla blah parser something-something
00:36:52 <ZOMGMODULES> you threw me there for a minute
00:38:47 <olsner> couldn't be bothered figuring out the proper lyridcs
00:39:12 <olsner> though I'm pretty sure you can make something completely coherent about parsec parsers to that tune
00:39:25 <olsner> as coherent as such talk could ever be
00:40:43 <olsner> hark bark flark flrgblk
00:40:56 <ZOMGMODULES> flglrlrk
00:41:08 <ZOMGMODULES> "You can't spell 'Parsec' without 'arse'"
00:41:27 <ZOMGMODULES> I don't appear to have it installed though, what is this craziness?
00:41:30 <olsner> I spell parsec using my brain and my hands
00:43:29 <olsner> maybe with some kind of flatulence input method you could do it with your arse
00:43:40 <ZOMGMODULES> ohhh do I have to install the damn thing with cabal
00:43:42 * ZOMGMODULES whines
00:44:00 <olsner> like the opposite of hawking's computer thingy
00:44:14 <olsner> meh, stop the whining
00:44:41 <olsner> also: with Cabal or with cabal-install?
00:45:11 <olsner> and I do wonder why I'm talking at you
00:45:12 <ZOMGMODULES> maybe not cabal, trying: sudo apt-get install libghc6-parsec3-dev
00:45:18 <ZOMGMODULES> yeah, why is that?
00:45:23 <olsner> no clue
00:45:33 <olsner> I'm awake and have nothing better to do perhaps?
00:45:42 <ZOMGMODULES> under this nick, I'm like elliott but even more obnoxious
00:45:53 <olsner> *are* you elliott?
00:46:01 <ZOMGMODULES> um
00:46:03 <ZOMGMODULES> I am.
00:46:10 <olsner> awe kay
00:46:14 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: we can't be seen together from now on
00:46:24 -!- elliott has left ("roger that").
00:47:39 <olsner> I will have to re-evaluate your existance based on these new facts
00:47:50 <olsner> *reëvaluate
00:48:23 <ZOMGMODULES> as will I
00:48:43 <olsner> good! it will do you none
00:49:20 -!- elliott has joined.
00:51:52 <ZOMGMODULES> oops
00:51:53 -!- ZOMGMODULES has left.
00:52:23 <Vorpal> <olsner> *are* you elliott? <-- hm probably not "+ ZOMGMODULES (~catseye@adsl-99-92-177-115.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) has left #esoteric"
00:52:44 <Vorpal> olsner, "catseye"
00:52:50 <olsner> Vorpal: a user name of "catseye" is not exactly hard to fake
00:52:55 <Vorpal> olsner, indeed
00:53:11 <olsner> and I have no idea where elliott would connect from
00:54:52 <Vorpal> + [ZOMGMODULES] (~catseye@adsl-99-92-177-115.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net): Chris Pressey. whois fails badly. on the ip
00:54:59 <Vorpal> but I can get that ISP is based in US
00:55:28 <Vorpal> whois fails on any subdomain to sbcglobal.net
00:55:35 <olsner> sense you're making: scant if at all
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00:55:44 <Vorpal> olsner, heh
00:55:45 <olsner> me sleep
00:55:56 <Vorpal> you *do* act like elliott however.
00:56:34 <Vorpal> olsner, cya
00:56:41 <olsner> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: "HIM" is (I believe) some kind of pop music
00:59:42 <Vorpal> wait what. Ads in whois result
00:59:50 <Vorpal> (from the registrar, but still..)
01:00:11 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> Harmony In Motion
01:13:53 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> have mini repl. seems to be behaving as i expect
01:15:05 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> Now I need to implement the actual hard parts of the evaluator
01:15:45 <Gregor> D'oh, definitely need a photon tracer >_>
01:15:47 <Gregor> SO SLOW
01:15:51 <Gregor> SO INEFFICIENT
01:15:54 <Gregor> SO ... necessary.
01:16:41 <Gregor> Mainly because I can't figure out how to invert that if the photons are of normal orientation but the viewer is reoriented :P
01:18:05 <Gregor> Ohwait, yes I do 8-D
01:18:10 <Gregor> OK, raytracing it is :)
01:18:21 <Gregor> (Going backwards in time)
01:26:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, what are you trying to do?
01:26:47 * Sgeo wants there to be a raytracer that does relativity
01:27:19 <Gregor> <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension.
01:27:39 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> Sgeo: there is one. I remember seeing images it made, in the 90's.
01:28:04 <Sgeo> Gregor, isn't that something like that in black holes, or is that a common misconception, or am I misremembering something I recently read?
01:28:19 <Gregor> Sgeo: That's just intense time dilation.
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01:29:49 <Sgeo> http://www.photon.at/~werner/bh/gvsim.html
01:29:52 <Sgeo> I wanna go inside!
01:30:00 <Sgeo> And I want to make my own!
01:30:07 <Gregor> I don't want to write a raytracer ... maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify ... a lot ...
01:30:35 <Sgeo> POV-Ray sucks? (Is POV-Ray open source?)
01:30:46 <Gregor> "that I can modify a lot"
01:30:51 <Gregor> POV-Ray does WAY more than I need for this.
01:30:53 <Gregor> And is huge.
01:31:04 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> modifying someone else's raytracer implementation, always a great way to kill a week or two or ninety-five
01:31:05 <calamari> I wonder if that guy ever opened up vivid
01:31:07 <Gregor> Aw screw it, I've written ray-tracers, I can write another one X-P
01:31:47 <Sgeo> calamari, vivid?
01:32:01 <calamari> vivid was a ray tracer I used back in the ms-dos days
01:32:16 <calamari> it was much faster than pov-ray at the time and had better quality
01:32:34 <calamari> but it was closed
01:33:57 <calamari> Stephen Coy, Christopher Watkins and Mark Finlay co-authored a book
01:33:57 <calamari> on Ray Tracing called "Photorealism and Ray Tracing in C".
01:33:57 <calamari> Distributed free with the book was an example ray tracer called BOB.
01:34:23 <Gregor> The thing is, for what I need, I need a HORRIBLY broken raytracer :P
01:34:38 <Sgeo> Gregor, broken?
01:34:39 <Sgeo> Why?
01:34:53 <Sgeo> I mean, unless you mean broken in that your modifications mess with it
01:35:29 <Gregor> I'm essentially using a raytracer as a backwards photon mapper, but I have to maintain the actual time it takes for photons to get to their destination (as opposed to a conventional raytracer which considers light to be infinitely fast) since time is a physical dimension.
01:35:46 <calamari> "maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify" ...vs... "I need a HORRIBLY broken raytracer"
01:37:16 <Gregor> "doesn't suck" in the "is relatively modular and modifiable sense"
01:37:23 <Gregor> And yes, modifying a good one into this nonsense would be better.
01:38:12 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:38:36 <calamari> sounds like you'd be better off starting from scratch hehe
01:39:14 <Gregor> Actually, wait ... argh ... since the photons you're perceiving aren't themselves reoriented, all you would actually see is identical to if you were just slowly moving in one dimension ...
01:39:41 <zzo38> Is it possible to add polarization as well?
01:40:00 <zzo38> Would it be useful to do so?
01:40:59 <Gregor> zzo38: I'm not sure, but considering my mind can barely comprehend what I have already, I don't want to :P
01:41:16 <Gregor> ... reoriented light, standard orientation observer. *brain axplotes*
01:43:01 <Gregor> Simplified, what you see at any given instant is all the photons that hit the point in spacetime represented by your eye at that instant. The fact that the movement of this point is along a different axis than everything else is wholly irrelevant, photons are still photons.
01:44:19 <Gregor> Let's ignore for a moment the fact that the photons are, from your perspective, immobile, and so probably imperceptible >_>
01:44:56 <Gregor> Also let's ignore the fact that if photons are immobile, NOTHING makes sense.
01:45:14 <Sgeo> Make it so the angle of the switching between time and space dimensions can be anything
01:46:05 <Gregor> Doesn't make any difference, now you're just /slowly/ experiencing time while sliding /slowly/ in one dimension.
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02:13:17 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> <Gregor> I'm essentially using a raytracer as a backwards photon mapper, but I have to maintain the actual time it takes for photons to get to their destination [...] <-- wouldn't this just be the length of the ray?
02:24:00 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> I started writing a raytracer once but never finished it...
02:25:35 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> for(x=0:100){for(y=0:100){r=Ray(x,y);c=black;for(o:scene)if(r.intersect(o)){c=white;break};plot(x,y,c)}}
02:25:51 * Sgeo just spend $100 of his dad's money
02:25:54 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> that's pretty much it. well, you have to implement the Ray class, and objects and stuff
02:25:59 <Sgeo> Um.. well, my dad spend it, I guess
02:26:11 <Sgeo> I think he's expecting me to pay him back.. which I will, I guess
02:27:35 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> all my objects were spheres, and it's pretty easy to tell when a line has intersected a sphere... hey so why did I never finish it?
02:27:40 <Gregor> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: That is the length of the ray, but remember that time is now a /location/, I thought (incorrectly) that I had to distinguish the parts of the ray corresponding to frames in the animation.
02:27:44 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> Sgeo: what'd ya buy?
02:28:03 <Sgeo> NOT-ZOMGMODULES, sponsorship of Grandroids
02:28:18 <Sgeo> Although I'm a bit torn about that extra $25 just to get a thank you in the credits
02:32:07 <Sgeo> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1508284443/grandroids-real-artificial-life-on-your-pc
02:32:57 -!- elliott has joined.
02:33:19 <Sgeo> Hi elliott. I just spend an extra $25 on something just so my name would be included
02:33:27 <elliott> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: hi
02:33:43 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> hi
02:33:48 <Gregor> <elliott> Sgeo: TOO MUCH MONEY DERP
02:33:56 <elliott> wat
02:34:28 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> elliott: Sgeo just bought real artificial life. I think this makes him a slave owner?
02:34:53 <Gregor> I own a cat.
02:34:55 <Gregor> SHE IS MY SLAVE.
02:35:12 <elliott> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: absolutely
02:35:22 <Sgeo> Gregor, you don't torture your cat the way I've tortured norns before...
02:35:24 <elliott> after what he did to norns, how is he still allowed to adopt virtual life?
02:35:39 <Gregor> I don't think that how you treat your slaves affects whether they're slaves or not...
02:37:33 <Sgeo> Hmm
02:37:43 <Sgeo> I think I inflicted actual pain only on a very few
02:37:57 <Sgeo> Usually it's death or blindness or the like
02:42:27 <elliott> 00:55:56: <Vorpal> you *do* act like elliott however.
02:42:28 <elliott> that's low
02:42:33 <elliott> i wouldn't say anything like that ever
02:42:35 <elliott> not even to my worst enemy
02:43:08 <elliott> 01:30:07: <Gregor> I don't want to write a raytracer ... maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify ... a lot ...
02:43:13 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, raytracers only take a couple thousand of lines :P
02:43:26 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not writing it. Upon further thought the result would be really boring.
02:43:32 <elliott> Gregor: ...why?
02:43:47 <Gregor> Lemme copy my quote from above ...'
02:44:03 <elliott> I mean, it's obvious what the result would look like, but it's still a useful intuitive tool.
02:44:09 <Gregor> <Gregor> Simplified, what you see at any given instant is all the photons that hit the point in spacetime represented by your eye at that instant. The fact that the movement of this point is along a different axis than everything else is wholly irrelevant, photons are still photons.
02:44:30 <elliott> ...well duh, don't simulate PHOTONS with the same reorientation.
02:44:32 <Gregor> All you would see is time frozen as you slide slowly along one axis.
02:44:43 <elliott> You're meant to pretend you have a magical camera that works by magic.
02:44:45 <Gregor> No, this is unreoriented photons.
02:44:47 <elliott> Oh.
02:44:50 <elliott> What about reoriented photons.
02:45:01 <Gregor> That's precisely like looking at somebody reoriented while you're not.
02:45:17 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> <Gregor> I don't think that how you treat your slaves affects whether they're slaves or not... <-- what if you free them? OMGZEN
02:45:46 <elliott> Gregor: Yes... the point is that the WHOLE SCENE is reoriented :P
02:45:58 <elliott> Which is important, because that's what the reoriented view of a 3D reorientation game would look like.
02:46:47 <Gregor> Bleh, fine, I'll write it :P
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02:48:11 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and make sure it can do colours separately of all the photon mess... so that you can identify objects in the scene when reoriented X-D
02:49:58 <Gregor> OK, assuming that photons from your perspective are immobile, and that you carry a lightsource with you through the machine, there's an excuse :P
02:50:09 <elliott> Gregor: Wut? :P
02:50:20 <Gregor> For why there are reoriented photons to see.
02:50:24 <elliott> Right :P
02:50:35 <elliott> Gregor: btw an IRL one of these things is possibly the most disturbing machine i can imagine
02:50:41 <Gregor> 8-D
02:50:46 <elliott> even the idea of some... repeated carpet...
02:50:53 <elliott> like
02:50:57 <elliott> an atom-thin slice of carpet
02:51:00 <elliott> repeated
02:51:01 <elliott> euuurgh
02:51:29 <elliott> Gregor: Also, AFAICT, in a still-in-normal-world scene, when you reorient, everything would start moving towards you :P
02:51:48 <elliott> Gregor: EXERCISE: Figure out what the fuck happens when a reoriented person collides with what is in non-oriented-world a normal wall.
02:52:01 <Gregor> elliott: The universe explodes.
02:52:24 <elliott> Gregor: A PERFECT IRL machine would do it at the quark level though.
02:52:33 <elliott> Gregor: So basically, you go through the machine, and emerge in a world without any complete, proper atoms.
02:52:43 <Gregor> elliott: YOUR MOM WOULD DO IT AT THE QUARK LEVEL
02:54:03 <elliott> Gregor: I'm totally nightmare-fueling about this machine now :P
02:55:00 <elliott> "For Time—in its relativity, brutality and absurdity— is one of "Friday"'s great targets. In an instant day passes to night, and the realism of the bus stop gives way to a surreal blue-screen panorama of a full moon and false city running on loop as Ms. Black rides in the convertible, apparent-heiress to the grand American tradition of high school cruising, that curious space birthed by Cold War highways (themselves relics of our atomic fears
02:55:01 <elliott> ) in which teenagers first experienced themselves as such."
02:55:02 <elliott> http://www.theawl.com/2011/03/arms-so-freezy-rebecca-blacks-friday-as-radical-text
02:55:55 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> ok i have decided...
02:56:00 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> "onanistic recursion"
02:56:24 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> i, i, i
02:56:38 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> ok i have decided to change Bizaaro-Pixley in several ways
02:57:13 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> it now looks like this: *[*let [[a b] *a]]
02:57:22 <elliott> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: wow, now it's even more like Nock!
02:57:33 <elliott> may I suggest replacing * with ' for maximum consuion
02:57:35 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> sooperfishilly
02:57:47 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> ' for eval, huh
02:57:50 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> that would be ironic
02:57:52 <elliott> and [] with ()
02:57:57 <elliott> '('let ((a b) 'a))
02:58:03 <elliott> :DDD
02:58:10 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> perhaps, perhaps
02:58:14 <elliott> I Can't Believe It's Not Lisp
02:58:33 <elliott> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: or no no no wait
02:58:35 <elliott> [] with )(
02:58:40 <elliott> ')'let ))a b( 'a((
02:58:44 <elliott> beautiful
02:58:51 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> nug
02:58:58 <elliott> NO
02:59:03 <elliott> replace * with (
02:59:08 <elliott> ( with '
02:59:12 <elliott> and ) with >
02:59:29 <elliott> ('(let ''a b> (a>>
03:00:21 <elliott> "New engine sends shockwaves through auto industry - 3.5x more efficient, doesn't require cooling system, transmission, or fluids"
03:00:22 <elliott> or energy.
03:00:25 <elliott> or a driver.
03:00:29 <elliott> or matter.
03:00:56 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> and it discloses to you this one weird old tip to shed belly fat
03:01:06 <elliott> discovered by a mom?
03:01:17 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> a WORK AT HOME mom, yes.
03:01:24 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:01:44 <elliott> from UNBIASED NEWSPAPER
03:01:47 <elliott> *Advertising website
03:02:00 <elliott> acai berry! it works so cheap! as seen on fox news!
03:02:07 <elliott> ok let's stop this before it gets out of hand
03:08:52 <Gregor> "We have a dangerous mission ahead of us." "I understand ... get the ship's counselor."
03:12:28 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, before a dangerous mission it's important to get some... therapy...
03:12:50 <Gregor> elliott: ST:TNG :P
03:13:37 <Gregor> But I've improved it: "We have a dangerous mission, lives are at risk. Assemble an away team." "Counselor, doctor, you're with me."
03:13:51 <elliott> there, happy now that we've thrown british subtlety out of the window in favour of american sledgehammering?
03:14:31 <elliott> Gregor: Because she commands all the crew's... lieutenants...
03:14:33 <elliott> SORRY
03:14:47 <Gregor> ... perfect :P
03:14:50 <elliott> *leftenants
03:15:02 <coppro> elliott: It's still spelled lieutenant
03:15:09 <coppro> *spelt
03:15:11 <elliott> SHUT UP
03:15:14 <elliott> YOU'RE CANADIAN
03:15:15 <elliott> WHAT WOULD YOU KNOW
03:15:22 <elliott> leftenant (plural leftenants)
03:15:22 <elliott> An archaic spelling of lieutenant.
03:15:22 <elliott> HA
03:15:30 <coppro> elliott: "archaic"
03:15:38 <elliott> WELL I'M A CONSERVATIVE
03:15:39 <elliott> BITCH
03:15:55 <elliott> hmm, i wonder what force of logic allows lieutenant to be pronounced in the uk way
03:16:19 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> also the canadian way. that force of logic is called FRENCH
03:16:50 <coppro> Quebecois, thankyouverymuch
03:17:12 <elliott> coppro: it's still spelt "fag"
03:17:13 <calamari> Gregor: they gave the reason for lt com.. she got involved with picard before.. she gave favors, she got favors
03:17:16 <elliott> or
03:17:20 <elliott> it's still spelt "french"
03:17:23 <elliott> dunno which is more offensive/funny
03:17:43 <elliott> calamari: you mean this is CANON? 8D
03:18:03 <calamari> not at all, I'm making it up :P
03:18:22 <elliott> then it's fake canon
03:18:25 <elliott> 10x better
03:18:29 <elliott> (AKA fanon ;D)
03:18:40 <calamari> but I'm pretty sure it was canon that they had some kind of relationship inthe past
03:18:51 <Gregor> Uhh, no :P
03:19:33 <elliott> is there any evidence to suggest picard hasn't had sex with everyone on the enterprise?
03:19:35 <elliott> i think not
03:19:36 <elliott> discuss
03:20:00 <coppro> elliott: I don't think picard is into male klingons
03:20:11 <elliott> coppro: that's not evidence against
03:20:18 <elliott> one, there is no evidence he ISN'T into male klingons
03:20:18 <Gregor> No, they're into him BA-DUM
03:20:26 <elliott> two, you can have sex with people you're not attracted to
03:20:30 <elliott> evidence discounted
03:20:43 <coppro> elliott: occam's razor; evidence readmitted
03:20:51 <elliott> coppro: uhh
03:20:53 <elliott> coppro: this is star trek
03:21:00 <elliott> occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis
03:21:01 <calamari> Jack later served aboard the USS Stargazer under Picard, and the couple became good friends with the captain. Picard later admitted he had fallen in love with Beverly, but did not ever express his feelings because he felt that doing so would betray his friend. <---- lies.. they totally f***ed
03:21:06 <elliott> evidence rediscounted
03:22:36 <elliott> yep
03:22:37 <elliott> i win
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03:27:52 <coppro> elliott: no; that discount isn't valid in that sector after 3:00 AM
03:28:07 <elliott> coppro: fuck you, i'm a bear
03:30:31 <elliott> well
03:30:33 <elliott> goodnight :)
03:30:45 <elliott> tswett: i'll talk wrt normish tomorrow
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04:00:58 <zzo38> Is it fine enough measurements if the space factors are in different units that 40 is the normal space value instead of 1000, and where 255 is the maximum?
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04:16:25 * Sgeo wants to see the pre-6th-edition rules of Magic
04:16:33 <Sgeo> I do vaguely remember Interrupts
04:16:46 <zzo38> Yes they did have Interrupts, which are no longer used.
04:17:15 <zzo38> There are various things about the rules (any editions) which I do not like, although there are many good rules, too.
04:17:37 <zzo38> Such as, I do not like they removed mana burn.
04:26:12 <zzo38> I do not even know if this still works in the modern rules: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Magic_The_Gathering_card_deck_of_programming_language
04:29:35 <zzo38> Do you know this?
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04:33:25 <Sgeo> Wait, the body of the first concept wasn't yours?
04:33:28 * Sgeo mindboggles
04:34:22 <zzo38> It was my idea, but I did not write most of the text on that page.
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04:37:34 <zzo38> I am trying to write a program which estimates values of chess pieces by calculating the resistance between every pair of cells on the board.
04:38:03 <Sgeo> resistance?
04:38:52 <zzo38> Yes, the resistance, in ohms.
04:39:07 <zzo38> I know it is stragne but it is an experiment I can try.
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05:06:52 <quintopia> is there a good way to compress very short strings of english text?
05:07:18 <zzo38> Like, how short do you mean?
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05:50:22 <quintopia> shorter than the original message
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05:55:38 <zzo38> I don't know which ways are best. I suppose usually English text consists of letters and spaces, and some punctuation, and some letters/punctuation are less common than others. There is also combinations that might be more likely or less likely than others.
05:59:29 <zzo38> Do you think prime numbers are of any use in estimating values of chess pieces?
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07:53:04 <impomatic> Hi :-)
07:53:53 <zzo38> Hi!!!!!
07:54:29 <ais523> hi...
07:54:36 <zzo38> OK
07:54:51 <impomatic> Hi zzo38, ais523 :-)
07:55:36 <zzo38> OK, do you have anything else to discussion or do you want for something else to be typed? (In case of the second way, you might look at recent logs in case you are interested in it)
08:19:34 * impomatic has a few new dev boards and is trying to figure out how to do something useful with them.
08:22:02 <zzo38> What kind of dev boards do you have?
08:24:53 <impomatic> Arduino, Minimus, Maximus, Altera Max, eZ430, ST7, TI Launchpad, Micropendous3
08:26:08 <impomatic> The trouble with the Minimus and Maximus is they're also used for PS Jailbreak, so most of the stuff I find online is about Jailbreak :-(
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08:56:14 <Vorpal> impomatic, hm, what are Minimus and Maximus then? It seems strange to me some random development boards would be used for jail break.
08:56:36 <Vorpal> or do you mean the words are used?
08:56:53 <impomatic> No, the dev boards are used: http://minimususb.com or http://www.teensy.co.uk/Maximus-AVR-USB-v1.2-inc-Case/c17/index.html
08:57:16 <Vorpal> impomatic, what would make them more fit for jail breaking, as opposed to other boards?
08:58:32 <impomatic> No sure. They're pretty cheap and built into a USB stick
08:59:05 <Vorpal> impomatic, for a development board that sounds impractical. *opens browser to look at how many IO pins they have*
09:00:06 <Vorpal> impomatic, wait what, the latter link has AVR in the page and also PIC18F4550
09:00:08 <Vorpal> now I'm confused
09:00:32 <impomatic> Minimus appears to have access to all pins. Maximus 1.0 only has access to a few. Not sure about Maximus 1.2 (which is still in the post).
09:01:16 <impomatic> That one confused me too... I'll open it up when it arrives! Maximus 1.0 is definitely AVR. Maximus 1.2 isn't really clear :-)
09:01:56 <Vorpal> impomatic, for sake of sanity I hope it isn't PIC! Though I only programmed PIC12 series. I guess PIC18 series is not quite as bad
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09:27:55 <oerjan> <elliott> occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis
09:28:13 <oerjan> so you are saying that you are discounting occam's razor as not being the simplest explanation?
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09:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott TV TROPES INSANITY CONTINUES: I swear they've started filtering out swearwords.
09:40:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:44:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: TI also has one built-into-USB-stick MSP430 series devel-board, https://estore.ti.com/EZ430-F2013-MSP430-USB-Stick-Development-Tool-P800.aspx
09:45:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "more information" page says it has "14 user accessible pins"; here's a pic: http://focus.ti.com/graphics/tool/ez430-f2013.jpg
09:46:26 <fizzie> (That F2013 chip is quite a small one.)
09:56:47 <oerjan> "Erdős may instead be exemplifying the “Lazarus Effect’: according to this list he has published 34 papers since 1999. Allowing 2–3 years as a typical upper bound on gestation for a journal paper, this would seem to indicate a fair bit of effort since his death in 1996."
09:56:57 <oerjan> (http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/why-is-everything-named-after-gauss/)
09:57:45 <zzo38> Then it must be someone else with the same name or using a pseudonym
09:58:34 <Vorpal> <fizzie> (That F2013 chip is quite a small one.) <-- quite.
09:58:35 <oerjan> i would _guess_ it is people adding his name as a joke, because of erdős numbers
09:58:54 <zzo38> That could be it, too.
09:59:17 <oerjan> some of the papers might still be based on his work, perhaps
09:59:48 <zzo38> Maybe it is.
10:04:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have to say I'm more used to huge development boards, where you have hundreds of pins for various purposes around.
10:04:21 <impomatic> I have a F2013 here.
10:06:23 <oerjan> http://www.gaussfacts.com/random
10:07:05 <oerjan> oklopol: especially for you ^
10:09:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Those tend to cost a bit more, too; I guess the cheapest end ones tend to be rather spartan.
10:10:25 <Vorpal> right
10:10:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, I mostly used development boards at university.
10:10:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, often with fancy debugging over JTAG interfaces and what not
10:12:32 <cheater00> lol: http://youtu.be/-jm942TrsK4
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10:20:16 <fizzie> The DSP devboards we had were rather on the large side, too. Well, at least compared to these microcontroller boards. http://www.spectrumdigital.com/product_info.php?&products_id=100 is one of them.
10:25:30 * oerjan reads today's iwc and recalls doing the exact opposite of that
10:25:37 <oerjan> *iwc annotation
10:26:51 <oerjan> that is, crumpling foil wrapper to turn it into little "crystal" balls
10:27:29 <oerjan> this obviously means i must be dmm's secret nemesis.
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11:03:56 <oklopol> "Gauss classified the finite groups. When he was finished with the simple ones, there were none left."
11:03:58 <oklopol> :D
11:08:01 <oklopol> "Gauss has an Erdos number of -1." why isn't there a gauss number
11:09:35 <ais523> I'm confused, because I almost certainly have an Erdős number, but don't know what it is
11:10:01 <ais523> (also, when I loaded up Character Map to copy-paste the ő, I found it was already selected so I didn't have to go look for it, which is nice; I must have had to type Erdős before)
11:11:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, most dev boards I have seen had sockets for various different CPUs from the same family. I think I saw an AVR one that had like 14 or 15 different CPU sockets on it.
11:11:38 <Phantom_Hoover>
11:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> What.
11:12:32 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: the pinouts are usually the same, it's just that the packages differ in size
11:12:53 <cheater00> so you'll have like concentric pinouts on the pcb where the leads go straight through the pads
11:15:06 <oklopol> ais523: there are websites that give you an upper bound
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11:16:01 <Vorpal> I can't find the 14-socket one atm, but this one is also pretty impressive in terms of number of IO pinshttp://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kamami.pl/published/publicdata/BTC10/attachments/SC/products_pictures/stk600.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kamami.pl/index.php%3Fukey%3Dproduct%26productID%3D46340%26did%3D34%26view%3Dprintable&usg=__XDa0lEfhhT8nIvazCos8fF5LX2I=&h=275&w=300&sz=37&hl=en&start=0
11:16:01 <Vorpal> &zoom=1&tbnid=gvJX_07o7Jp2fM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=135&ei=bj-gTar3LYrZtAa1kPCVBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSTK600%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:unofficial%26biw%3D1556%26bih%3D667%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=289&vpy=332&dur=292&hovh=215&hovw=235&tx=86&ty=103&oei=bj-gTar3LYrZtAa1kPCVBw&page=1&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0:
11:16:04 <Vorpal> argh the url
11:16:08 <Vorpal> was it that long...
11:16:25 <Vorpal> well, here is a direct link: http://www.kamami.pl/published/publicdata/BTC10/attachments/SC/products_pictures/stk600.jpg
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11:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> XD
11:18:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ?
11:19:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The TV Tropes So Bad It's Horrible pages have fanfic divided into *7* alphabetical subsections.
11:19:58 <Vorpal> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=2735 is not quite the 14-socket one either. But it has a respectable 8 CPU sockets. I used that one at university. I have no clue why it has two of each size of CPU socket. Possibly for dual-CPU development?
11:20:10 <Vorpal> Since the output ports are not duplicated...
11:22:10 <oklopol> Gauss can get to the other side of a Mbius strip.
11:24:43 <oklopol> "Gauss can comb Poincar's hairy balls" what :D
11:24:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you get that, surely?
11:24:58 <fizzie> Heh, I got that one too.
11:25:03 <oklopol> i get it
11:25:08 <fizzie> And by "got" I mean "received from the random-lister page".
11:25:24 <oklopol> but that was kinda
11:25:33 <fizzie> I think it was kinda oko.
11:25:47 <fizzie> You're all about hairy balls, aren't you?
11:25:51 <oklopol> yes, i agree, it was kinda stupid
11:26:02 <oklopol> well i love balls
11:38:35 <oklopol> there should be webpages like that gauss thing for more specific topics
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11:41:44 <oklopol> gauss can construct a nonplanar graph such that no subdivisions of K_5 appear as a subgraph, and every subgraph that is a subdivision of K_{3,3} has itself a planar embedding
11:45:26 <oklopol> gauss can construct a subset S of 1^* such that for every problem L subset {0, 1}^* for which there exists a nondeterministic turing machine A and a polynomial p such that L is exactly the set of words w for which there exist an accepting run of A of length p(|w|), there also exists a function g in FP such that u is in S if and only if g(s) is in L
11:45:31 <oklopol> erm
11:45:46 <oklopol> last thing is backwards
11:46:13 <oklopol> .., there also exists a function g in FP such that s is in L if and only if g(s) is in S
11:46:49 <oklopol> (that's a stronger theorem than i proved yesterday but if you look at the proof you note that S doesn't actually need to be in NP)
11:47:09 <oklopol> or was it yesteryesterday
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11:48:54 <oklopol> i should make my own gauss page, drop gauss and call it "false things that are close to a true thing"
11:48:59 <oklopol> hilarity would ensue
11:50:40 <oklopol> but i suppose they should start with an existential quantifier (replacing the current gauss quantifier "gauss can X")
11:50:59 <oklopol> so that you have a clear impossibility you can laugh at
11:51:12 <oklopol> like a single totally crazy object like that S there
11:53:14 <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
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11:55:56 <oklopol> i hate you guys
11:56:28 <oklopol> oerjan: come play mangle the theorem with me
12:01:28 <oklopol> gauss can construct an algebra with underlying set S and a unary operation * such that there exist elements e != f such that both e and f are identity elements with respect to *
12:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, off to Venice.
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12:10:11 <cheater00> klop: how does he do it?
12:10:40 <oklopol> how should i know
12:11:13 <oklopol> especially as the proof that it's impossible takes about 10 characters
12:11:26 <oklopol> or i guess 6
12:15:37 <cheater00> Wenn man auf einem Taschenrechner 707 eingibt und den Taschenrechner umdreht, erscheint das Wort "LOL". Addiert man dann zu diesem "LOL" ein weiteres, dann ist das Ergebnis "hihi".
12:15:44 <cheater00> haha
12:15:56 <oklopol> funny
12:16:09 <oklopol> my algebra joke was funnier though
12:16:42 <cheater00> oklopol: i didn't realize it was a joke, i thought it was really truth for some very odd definition of "algebra"
12:16:56 <oklopol> no usual definition
12:17:08 <oklopol> operation = * has type S x S -> S
12:17:37 <cheater00> * :: (a, a) -> a ?
12:17:38 <oklopol> e identity = e * x = x * e = e for all x in S
12:17:51 <oklopol> what are a in there
12:17:59 <oklopol> S is the underlying set
12:18:28 <cheater00> because a \in S.
12:18:41 <cheater00> obviously (S, S) -> S would be an operation on sets
12:18:45 <cheater00> say, intersection.
12:19:24 <oklopol> i just assumed you used (A, B) notation instead of A x B, it makes more sense
12:19:29 <oklopol> but okay
12:19:32 <oklopol> then the answer is no
12:19:45 <oklopol> why would (a, a) go to a?
12:20:11 <cheater00> oklopol: because multiply(x, y) has two parameters and one result.
12:20:36 <oklopol> yes, and yet multiply(a, a) is not necessarily a
12:20:51 <oklopol> except when gauss does it
12:21:22 <cheater00> http://learnyouahaskell.com/types-and-typeclasses#type-variables
12:21:48 <cheater00> have a read from a website i helped create, it has nice pictures.
12:22:32 <oklopol> so you did mean SxS by (S,S)
12:22:50 <oklopol> and a was just S
12:23:22 <cheater00> no, a is the type of elements from S. it is not S.
12:23:37 <cheater00> they have different meta-data.
12:23:47 <cheater00> in mathematical notation you would say S x S -> S
12:23:52 <oklopol> if you want to have an artificial difference, of course you can have that, but there's really no need for that.
12:24:14 <cheater00> no need, but i'm just telling you why i denoted it differently
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12:24:47 <oklopol> sure
12:25:22 <oklopol> in any case, yes, * :: (a, a) -> a, where a is the type of elements of S
12:25:26 <oklopol> that's what a binary op is
12:26:01 <oklopol> i prefer to think of it as a subset of the cartesian product of S^2 and S such that each element of S^2 has a unique image
12:28:04 <cheater00> you mean well-defined binary operator
12:28:15 <oklopol> i mean a fucking function from S^2 to S
12:28:30 <cheater00> if it's not well-defined it can yield results that are not a, or not be defined at all
12:28:33 <cheater00> which is fun sometimes
12:28:51 <cheater00> also is a fucking function like an orgy in a church with candles and stuff
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12:29:01 <cheater00> because that sounds fun too
12:29:04 <oklopol> uhhuh. and i guess it could also be an elephant given the right isomorphism.
12:29:13 <cheater00> :D
12:29:17 <cheater00> i guess
12:32:01 <cheater00> you know, they say a good scientist can take a single dot on a blackboard and extrapolate it into an elephan
12:32:02 <cheater00> t
12:32:49 <oklopol> gauss can extrapolate it into a mastodon
12:38:46 <cheater00> riemann can extrapolate it into a mouse
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14:35:24 <elliott> 05:06:52: <quintopia> is there a good way to compress very short strings of english text?
14:35:24 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:35:26 <elliott> huffmand
14:35:28 <elliott> *huffman
14:35:29 <elliott> duh
14:35:30 <elliott> or similar
14:37:27 <elliott> 09:27:55: <oerjan> <elliott> occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis
14:37:27 <elliott> 09:28:13: <oerjan> so you are saying that you are discounting occam's razor as not being the simplest explanation?
14:37:29 <elliott> :D
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15:21:19 <tswett> elliott: how dare you insult Occam? :P
15:21:28 <elliott> tswett: in the context of star trek
15:21:37 <tswett> Ah. Go ahead, then.
15:21:46 <tswett> You have my blessings. Tentatively.
15:21:52 <tswett> So, elliott, guess what day it is!
15:21:55 <tswett> It's tomorrow!
15:21:55 <elliott> I feel strangely... blessed, somehow.
15:22:01 <elliott> tswett: Wow!!!!
15:22:06 <tswett> Jump on an altar and see if it's true.
15:22:13 <elliott> Everyone is here... in the future! http://everyoneishereinthefuture.com/one.html
15:23:17 <coppro> tswett: nope, I checked. It's still today
15:23:52 <elliott> Everyone is... no longer here... in the past.
15:23:54 <elliott> *Nobody is
15:23:58 <tswett> coppro: but today is Friday (speaking in terms of yesterday), meaning today, Saturday, must be tomorrow.
15:24:06 <elliott> And Sunday comes after.
15:24:25 <tswett> Sunday: the most extreme day of the week.
15:24:35 <Sgeo> Why made this?
15:24:59 <tswett> Sgeo: are you speaking of a person known as Why who seems to have made something?
15:25:15 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes.
15:25:28 <elliott> tswett: "Why" is an abbreviation for "why the lucky stiff".
15:25:35 <elliott> The this in question is <elliott> Everyone is here... in the future! http://everyoneishereinthefuture.com/one.html.
15:25:50 <Sgeo> elliott, but the question _also_ sounds like a weird grammatical ... oddity
15:26:49 <tswett> Oh, he's the guy that made that poignant guide to Ruby.
15:26:53 <Gregor> What in Jebus' name
15:27:00 <tswett> Gregor: WHY
15:27:05 <Gregor> Is he trying to make a point, or just smoking a lot of pot?
15:27:25 <elliott> Gregor: Everyone is here in the future!
15:28:06 <Gregor> Also:
15:28:12 <Gregor> Everyone is here in the future EXCEPT FOR WHY
15:28:14 <Gregor> lololol
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15:44:00 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.tenshu.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/2007-07-29-terminator-02-large21.png <-- GUI screen :P
15:45:13 <Gregor> elliott: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
15:45:41 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.tenshu.net/terminator/
15:51:27 <cheater00> are there version control systems where the changesets form a category (a cs is an arrow)?
15:52:38 <Mathnerd314> darcs?
15:54:38 <cheater00> hmm i was thinking of something else
15:54:48 <cheater00> basically of being able to reach any combination of changesets
15:57:36 <cheater00> like say you'd take any set of changes, and it would generate code that is valid
15:58:08 <cheater00> maybe it wouldn't do much (e.g. define functions which don't get called) but it would still be correct code that does what you want it to (hence you only selected those changesets)
15:59:23 <Mathnerd314> that is pretty much the goal of darcs's theory of patches
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15:59:41 <elliott> no, the goal of darcs' theory of patches is to look reasonable if you don't look too closely
16:00:19 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: cool, how is that different from e.g. what bzr does?
16:01:32 <Mathnerd314> I don't know bzr, so I don't know
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16:05:44 <Mathnerd314> but git stores files instead of changesets, so the idea doesn't really arise
16:05:54 <cheater00> yeah git is stupid
16:07:23 <Mathnerd314> see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Understanding_Darcs/Patch_theory
16:08:25 <cheater00> lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri796Hx8las
16:08:58 <cheater00> question "plz compare hg to perforce and are you gonna use hg?" answer: "at google we are unique in that we have one giant repository for everything."
16:11:40 <Gregor> That ... is unique.
16:11:41 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: reading, thanx
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16:11:51 <cheater00> Gregor: yeah, lol.
16:12:03 <Gregor> elliott: THEY NEED SCAPE🐐
16:12:05 <cheater00> Gregor: probably the worst google talk i've seen.
16:12:13 <elliott> Gregor: What, patch theory?
16:12:21 <Gregor> elliott: Google
16:12:35 <Gregor> elliott: Oh yeah, you have cheater00 blocked, don'tcha :P
16:12:37 <cheater00> Gregor: and they don't seem to have sandwiches there, which they had on all talks i've been to
16:13:21 <Gregor> elliott: THEY NEED 🐐 SANDWICHES
16:13:27 <elliott> Gamwiches.
16:15:00 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: that looks really cool
16:15:32 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: but what if i have one changeset A which defines s_list, and another which adds pasta to s_list
16:15:40 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: that one is called B
16:15:56 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: and i ONLY apply B. will that define s_list with the sole element of pasta?
16:16:09 <elliott> Gregor: HMPH
16:16:54 <cheater00> Gregor: what is this unicode character you are using?
16:16:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, 🐐 <-- whoa, that shows up as [01F410], which is quite a bit longer than usual. What is it supposed to be?
16:17:46 <cheater00> Vorpal: too slow! :p
16:17:47 <Gregor> 🐐 regrets your inability to render him.
16:18:29 <Vorpal> Gregor, point me to a font that has it.
16:18:39 <Vorpal> and that I could get on linux
16:19:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: To my knowledge there is no font that supports it yet, but it is in Unicode so nyaa.
16:20:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, so you can't see it either?
16:20:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, so what is it supposed to be?
16:20:26 <elliott> It's GOAT.
16:20:40 <elliott> My 🐐 has a 🐐ee.
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16:21:46 <Vorpal> huh, gogling for it turns up nothing relevant. Only a handful hits. And in all cases it is memory addresses or MAC addresses instead.
16:21:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, so wtf
16:22:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, which unicode version should I look in for this?
16:22:20 <Gregor> Your refusal to support the new era of Unicode GOAT disappoints me.
16:22:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait, is this from the private use area?
16:22:53 <Gregor> ... no, that's not part of Unicode X_X
16:22:58 <Vorpal> right
16:23:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, is this in version 6 or version 7?
16:23:10 <elliott> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f410/index.htm
16:23:13 <elliott> second google result for "unicode goat"
16:23:18 <elliott> vorpal is either a liar or can't type two words
16:23:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I googled for 1f410... (and U+1f410 and so on). Weird I got no hits on that
16:24:00 <Gregor> For what it's worth, it's also the first result for "u+1f410"
16:24:49 <Vorpal> wait, I typed an extra zero at the start. Which should be equivalent. And was how text rendering showed it here (probably rounds up to even number of hex digits)
16:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, are there other animals around that code point or what?
16:25:26 <cheater00> does it find the page if you search without the zero?
16:25:27 <Gregor> It's certainly not Google-equivalent.
16:25:39 <cheater00> Vorpal: it's a zodiac sign.
16:25:52 <Vorpal> cheater00, yep it finds it then
16:25:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, aha
16:26:50 <Gregor> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f3e9/index.htm <-- another zodiac sign
16:27:31 <elliott> Err, that's an emoji
16:27:34 <elliott> :P
16:29:13 <Gregor> NO
16:29:16 <Gregor> I was born under that sign.
16:31:27 <elliott> Gregor was also born in the Year of the Whorehouse.
16:31:31 <elliott> *Chinese Year
16:34:24 <Gregor> That's "love hotel"
16:37:21 <elliott> Gregor: No, love hotel is the zodiac sign, silly.
16:45:10 <cheater00> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3O3UHSGLng
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17:04:48 <elliott> hi oerjan
17:05:08 <oerjan> g'day
17:05:09 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:05:16 <oerjan> @messages
17:05:17 <lambdabot> elliott said 2h 20m 36s ago: Is blatant, persistent lying a bannable offence days?
17:05:38 <elliott> wat
17:05:41 <elliott> i don't even remember typing that
17:05:46 <oerjan> no. that's not even grammatical.
17:06:16 * oerjan ponders if _someone_ didn't know that lambdabot could give messages in public
17:07:00 <oerjan> alternatively it _could_ be that the message is self-referential
17:07:19 <oerjan> let's assume the latter for the peace of the channel.
17:08:26 -!- oerjan has left.
17:09:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:09:23 <oerjan> ho hum
17:09:23 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:09:28 <oerjan> @messages
17:09:28 <lambdabot> lying_scum said 29s ago: Yes, that may be so.
17:09:43 <oerjan> elliott: looks like lambdabot is easy to fool
17:10:12 <oerjan> (possibly leaving the channel before changing nick was excessive)
17:10:50 <oerjan> actually i also wanted to check that lambdabot accepted privmsges outside the channel, so no.
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17:16:31 <oerjan> `addquote [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
17:16:35 <HackEgo> 357) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
17:18:00 <cheater00> haha
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17:22:42 <cheater00> oerjan: do you think fogcreek could be a good place to work?
17:23:12 <oklopol> oerjan: so now, how about a game of mangle-the-theorem?
17:24:32 <oerjan> maybe.
17:24:36 <oklopol> :D
17:24:41 <oklopol> i love you
17:24:47 <oklopol> oh
17:24:53 <oklopol> you were answering cheater00 weren't you
17:24:55 <oklopol> :(
17:25:07 * oklopol sheds tear
17:25:09 <oerjan> i didn't even notice his message actually
17:25:13 <oklopol> !
17:25:20 <oklopol> i love you
17:25:21 <oklopol> :D
17:25:31 <cheater00> oklopol: i could play with you :p
17:25:38 <oerjan> yes he pinged me but somehow my brain assumed that was just the "haha" message i'd already read
17:25:51 <oerjan> also, i have no idea what fogcreek is
17:26:07 <cheater00> what
17:26:09 <cheater00> really?
17:26:21 <oerjan> yes
17:26:30 <cheater00> um
17:26:33 <cheater00> joel spolsky?
17:26:36 <cheater00> joel on software?
17:26:38 <cheater00> stack overflow?
17:26:41 <cheater00> fogbugz? kiln?
17:26:51 <oerjan> ok i know the first three there
17:26:56 <oerjan> so is that his firm?
17:27:01 <cheater00> yes
17:27:14 <cheater00> i posted a link to their "work for us" ad
17:27:31 <cheater00> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3O3UHSGLng
17:27:47 <oerjan> i'm definitely not the person to ask, anyway.
17:27:59 <cheater00> why?
17:28:06 <oklopol> it's pretty hard to find a nontrivial one that fits in an irc message
17:28:16 <cheater00> if they said "hey oerjan, come work for us" would you do it?
17:28:28 <oerjan> unlikely.
17:28:39 <oerjan> especially if it means going to the US
17:28:49 <oklopol> oerjan: we have a professor spot opening afaik
17:29:33 <cheater00> oerjan: say their offices were in a big city near to where you live
17:29:40 <cheater00> oerjan: would that change anything?
17:29:59 <oerjan> i don't _really_ know who they are, beyond presumably running stack overflow.
17:30:19 <oerjan> i am also not really a programmer.
17:30:31 <cheater00> what are you then?
17:30:51 <oerjan> my education is mathematics.
17:30:57 <cheater00> so's mine
17:33:12 <cheater00> what if they needed a mathematician
17:34:30 <oklopol> lol
17:34:40 <oklopol> how the fuck do you "need" a mathematician :D
17:35:41 <cheater00> well, say you're doing something like realtime and need some differential equations solved
17:35:51 <cheater00> or need someone to help you implement a kalman filter
17:36:07 <cheater00> or need someone to tell you how to optimize your search algorithm
17:40:02 <oerjan> my former coauthor rustad did manage to get a job in the oil industry, i think he's mostly doing numerical simulations
17:40:44 <oklopol> i would like to make a complaint about the use of "manage" in that sentece
17:40:46 <oklopol> *sentence
17:41:15 <oerjan> well, as someone with mainly math education
17:41:34 <oerjan> (he did take a few courses on petroleum simulation though)
17:43:27 <oerjan> also i don't see what's wrong with that "manage"
17:45:10 <oklopol> oerjan: well i'd've rephrased "had to get an inferior job at some stupid oil thingie"
17:45:20 <oklopol> managed sounds like he actually wanted to
17:45:35 <oerjan> oh right
17:45:49 <oerjan> yeah he did sort of give up on staying at university
17:46:17 <oerjan> there weren't enough openings
17:48:25 <oklopol> it's sad that the society tries to force even the intelligent people to do meaningless shit
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19:22:20 <cheater00> http://placekitten.com/
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19:55:09 <augur> http://software.jessies.org/terminator/
19:55:19 <augur> i almost thought elliott had been involved in this
19:55:22 <augur> turns out its elliott hughs
19:55:23 <augur> nothurd
19:55:29 <augur> hird
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19:58:27 <elliott> augur: i've actually used terminator and some other software by him.
19:58:32 <elliott> (evergreen, lwm)
19:58:41 <oerjan> THE SKYNET IS YOUR FAULT
19:58:53 <augur> elliott: YOU AHVE MAGIC D:
19:59:06 <augur> also, hey dude
19:59:51 <elliott> oerjan: pls make http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92 less ugly and unreadable
20:00:00 <augur> is that
20:00:04 <augur> (less ugly) and (unreadable)
20:00:10 <augur> or less (ugly and unreadable)
20:00:24 <elliott> latter
20:00:26 <elliott> obviously
20:00:33 <augur> just making sure!
20:00:43 <augur> never know if you want your wikis like your programing languages
20:01:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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20:04:36 <oerjan> IS NOT UGLY.
20:05:50 <elliott> it is
20:05:59 <elliott> the paragraph spacing is all off because of the line height being off
20:06:02 <elliott> because of subscripts and superscripts
20:06:18 <elliott> see first two paragraphs in computational class section
20:06:22 <elliott> oerjan: do you like my new user page
20:06:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ehird
20:06:52 <oerjan> elliott: RECENT DIFFS ARE KIND OF HARD TO READ
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20:07:06 <elliott> wow that's pretty
20:07:13 <elliott> oerjan: here's the lowdown: FUCK HTML
20:07:15 <elliott> well
20:07:17 <elliott> more precisely
20:07:19 <elliott> FUCK MEDIAWIKI'S IDEA OF HTML
20:07:26 * elliott expands his invention list
20:08:02 <olsner> elliott: will you be reinventing the web?
20:08:16 <elliott> olsner: what, in @?
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20:10:17 <cheater00> fucking html is actually a good idea
20:11:04 <cheater00> (said he, noticing that tim berners-lee has just signed on to freenode.)
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20:33:45 <ais523> elliott: I fear you're overusing [[Category:Shameful]]; the more things it's on, the less the impact
20:34:17 <elliott> ais523: that's my language!
20:34:36 <elliott> ais523: if I didn't mark it shameful I'd have to commit seppuku or something
20:34:46 <elliott> BUT OK FINE YOU WIN
20:35:44 <ais523> [[Category:Shameful]] was funnier when it was only on one language
20:36:49 <elliott> ais523: well, it's hard to argue it doesn't belong on FURscript
20:37:17 <elliott> ais523: and, errr, it looks like the author of BrainFNORD added it to theirs
20:37:32 <ais523> if people are adding it to their own langs, what is the world coming to?
20:37:35 <augur> furscript, a language for furries?
20:38:13 <elliott> i'll remove it from brainfnord, it's only as shameful as Ook!
20:38:26 <elliott> PH's brain-bricking is sufficient punishment for that, we don't need it to be marked shameful too
20:38:31 <ais523> augur: it appears to be just a list of random commands
20:39:01 <elliott> i love how every time i edit my user page it completely clogs up recent changes
20:39:39 <elliott> at least i've produced the best nesting of html tags ever
20:39:39 <ais523> elliott: it triggers on attempts even to show the source code, though
20:39:43 <elliott> b > i > u > a > font
20:40:02 <elliott> ais523: erm, just clicking to edit the page doesn't, I don't think?
20:40:16 <ais523> it does if you have preview on edit turne don
20:40:17 <ais523> *turned on
20:40:23 <elliott> well turn it off then :D
20:40:27 <ais523> and on a wiki like Esolang, it's normally a very useful feature
20:41:57 <Sgeo> Well, too late to back out of paying $100
20:42:49 <oerjan> <elliott> BECAUSE AIS523 BROKE THE PREVIEW BUTTON <-- what!
20:42:55 * oerjan swats ais523 -----###
20:43:09 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't break it, I changed it so that it was impossible for a page to change the entire edit interface
20:43:21 <ais523> which prevents ehird's page breaking everyone else's attempts to edit it
20:43:37 <elliott> *my
20:43:49 <elliott> nobody else uses that feature :)
20:44:12 <ais523> hmm, I just realised calling you ehird there was not a mistake but technically correct
20:44:20 <ais523> as the user page belongs to ehird
20:44:24 <ais523> even if the IRC persion is elliott
20:44:32 <Deewiant> persion = person version
20:47:26 <oerjan> ais523: um so previewing other pages won't clog up recent changes?
20:47:39 <ais523> oerjan: previewing any page doesn't clog up recent changes
20:47:43 <ais523> even elliott's
20:48:00 <ais523> the difference is that elliott's page no longer replaces the entire interface when previewed, and he claims that's broken as it doesn't look like he wants it to look then
20:48:58 <oerjan> ah so it's only that he cannot see the result properly without saving
20:51:40 <oerjan> <elliott> well turn it off then :D <-- that's a personal preference, which i incidentally _do_ have set
20:52:53 <cheater00> lol:
20:52:56 <cheater00> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_%28Programmiersprache%29
20:53:47 <olsner> "E, the secure distributed pure-object platform and p2p scripting language."
21:00:41 <Sgeo> Since when is E a scripting language?
21:01:22 <oklopol> olsner: what are you like as a person
21:01:53 <oerjan> SCRIPTVM EST
21:03:12 <olsner> oklopol: "what are you? like a person?" yes, I'm very similar to a person :D
21:03:18 <oerjan> È SCRITTO
21:03:25 <olsner> or so I like to believe, anyway
21:03:54 <augur> point of fact:
21:03:56 <oklopol> olsner: you seem to have made a tokenization error
21:04:08 <augur> worfs first language (maybe second, but certainly native) was almost certainly belarussan
21:04:33 <olsner> oklopol: yeah, thought it was funnier tokenized my way, so I retokenized it
21:04:50 <oerjan> olsner: YOU MISSED A WORD
21:05:21 <elliott> <ais523> the difference is that elliott's page no longer replaces the entire interface when previewed, and he claims that's broken as it doesn't look like he wants it to look then
21:05:27 <elliott> ais523: umm, to clarify, it looks NOTHING like the result
21:05:32 <olsner> oerjan: no, I removed it
21:05:33 <elliott> i would be fine if it just showed it and then the edit view
21:05:38 <elliott> but it just turns into a mess
21:05:49 <elliott> <oerjan> ah so it's only that he cannot see the result properly without saving
21:05:50 <elliott> yes
21:11:15 <Gregor> http://demos.sonivoxmi.com/sonicimplantssoundfontenstrings.mp3 <-- I'm trying to decide if this demo reel is good enough to be worth dropping the money on the soundfont ...
21:11:28 <cheater00> let's see
21:11:42 <Gregor> It's ... not great ... but for strings, not terrible.
21:12:02 <cheater00> it sounds like a really nice DOS game theme song
21:12:40 <elliott> The strings sound a bit artificial to me.
21:12:45 <elliott> Though I'd be amazed if they DIDN'T.
21:13:03 <Gregor> Strings are a bitch X_X
21:13:41 <elliott> How much does the soundfont cost
21:13:43 * Sgeo throws some "" at Gregor
21:13:56 <fizzie> $49.95?
21:14:13 <elliott> Converting from Gregor-money that's like 3 cents, go for it! [UNICODE TROLL FACE]
21:15:22 <fizzie> I think I heard that some people at the acoustics lab are dabbling with physics-based string instrument synthesis. I have no idea how good their things are; probably not very. They might not have any demos available.
21:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: Well, better than the state of speech to text.
21:15:44 <elliott> ;DDDDD
21:16:03 <fizzie> They have a kantele synthesis thing, which I guess is pretty obscure.
21:16:28 <fizzie> (No new papers on that after 2005, so I guess it's not an active project.)
21:16:44 <elliott> Ah well. More active than speech-to-text.
21:17:06 <fizzie> "Research and synthesis of the tanbur, a traditional Turkish long-necked lute, the ud, a short-necked arabic lute, and the Renaissance lute."
21:17:46 <oerjan> the finnish can't ele
21:19:10 <Zwaarddijk> I just had a guitar remade to be more ud-like
21:19:53 <cheater00> fizzie: you mean karplus strong synthesis?
21:20:20 <cheater00> Zwaarddijk: what did they change?
21:21:24 <Zwaarddijk> switched the neck to rosewood, removed the frets, filled the slots with something, polished it
21:21:52 <Zwaarddijk> of course, normal uds have shorter necks relative to the body size, and double course strings
21:22:06 <Zwaarddijk> (oh, flatwound strings from now on, to reduce wear on the neck)
21:22:18 <Zwaarddijk> it's a stratocaster copy
21:24:34 <elliott> asdfghjkl
21:26:01 <elliott> "He left the site for a few days in October 2008, following a bitter feud over whether the Spanish Inquisition constituted British comedy."
21:27:23 <cheater00> i don't see how that is an oud
21:27:28 <cheater00> it's just a fretless guitar?
21:27:40 <cheater00> flatwounds are fun
21:27:45 <cheater00> don't sound so nice tho
21:28:12 <oerjan> the whole spanish institution was just a british joke that got very out of hand
21:28:18 <oerjan> *inquisition
21:28:25 <Zwaarddijk> cheater00: it is more like an oud now than before, though
21:28:29 * oerjan swats his hands -----###
21:28:38 <Zwaarddijk> cheater00: I play a lot of jazz, so flatwounds fit in that style
21:28:44 <cheater00> does the rosewood make so much difference?
21:29:20 <Zwaarddijk> well, maple isn't good on fretless guitars
21:29:44 <cheater00> so a fretless guitar is immediately an oud? :p
21:29:47 <Zwaarddijk> not really
21:29:50 <Zwaarddijk> but it does get much closer
21:30:10 <cheater00> i thought a defining thing for the oud was the thick neck
21:30:13 <Zwaarddijk> instruments aren't really a discretely classifiable all the time
21:30:34 <fizzie> cheater00: I think rather something more physically accurate, or at least more complicated; but I don't really know what they've done. Short description for the latest kantele paper says: "Two algorithms for simulating tension modulated strings (e.g. kantele strings) are presented: a spatially distributed waveguide model and a finite difference model. The waveguide model is essentially the same as below, whereas the finite difference model uses time-domain inte
21:30:34 <fizzie> rpolation for modulating the wave velocities. Stability issues for both models are discussed."
21:30:48 <Zwaarddijk> in some classificcations, what's considered distinct for ouds is picked strings + fretless
21:31:16 <Zwaarddijk> which is not very common - ouds and shamisen, basically?
21:31:23 <cheater00> fizzie: sounds like karplus-strong to me
21:31:39 <cheater00> oh wait, i read waveguide as waveshaper for some reason
21:31:40 <cheater00> nm
21:31:43 <Zwaarddijk> and the shamisen is distinct by having cat- or dogskin
21:32:12 <cheater00> where is the skin used?
21:32:24 <cheater00> but no, fretless instruments are not uncommon
21:32:34 <fizzie> The "below" refers to: "Nonlinear kantele strings are modeled using a waveguide string with spatially distributed fractional delay filters. When the delay time of the fractional delay filters is varied, tension modulation nonlinearity can be simulated." So I guess it's sort-of related in any case.
21:33:02 <Zwaarddijk> cheater00: most fretless are bowed, though
21:33:10 <Zwaarddijk> which is the distinct thing about the oud
21:33:41 <Zwaarddijk> the shamisen is a bit like a banjo: it's stretched around a frame
21:33:58 <Zwaarddijk> the bridge rests on the skin
21:34:47 <Zwaarddijk> plucked fretless insturments are more common in the far east
21:36:23 <cheater00> oh ok right
21:36:32 <cheater00> and ya they are
21:37:01 <cheater00> my recent musical instrument discovery was the nyckelharpa
21:37:21 <Zwaarddijk> those are cool.
21:37:38 <cheater00> yeah my buddy is an expert on those
21:37:48 <cheater00> he's got like a zillion cds on them
21:38:03 <cheater00> and he lent me one, he said i'm not so bad for someone who never held a bow in his life
21:39:18 <Zwaarddijk> currently I am practicing a lot of microtonal sales
21:39:20 <Zwaarddijk> *scales
21:39:30 <cheater00> nyckelharpas are microtonal
21:39:31 <cheater00> :D
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21:39:54 <Zwaarddijk> cheater00: that's up to how you tune them, no?
21:39:55 <cheater00> but really.. with fretless.. you're mostly doing glissandos, and listening to the beats between your voicings and other people's
21:39:57 <Zwaarddijk> hm
21:40:02 <cheater00> you don't tune nyckelharpas.
21:40:12 <cheater00> they have fixed scales. they're sort-of fretted.
21:40:16 <Zwaarddijk> yeah but
21:40:18 <Zwaarddijk> the strings
21:40:26 <Zwaarddijk> I guess you tune those to pure fifths or somesuch?
21:40:27 <cheater00> there's only one right way to tune the strings
21:40:43 <cheater00> EDAE or something like that, i don't remember
21:40:47 <Zwaarddijk> hm, are the fixed scales just intonation?
21:40:57 <cheater00> what do you mean?
21:41:12 <cheater00> it has keys, a keyboard, you can't re-tune a single key
21:41:37 <Zwaarddijk> well like
21:41:40 <Zwaarddijk> are the keys *pre-set*
21:41:48 <cheater00> yep
21:41:49 <Zwaarddijk> to be just-intonationish?
21:41:52 <cheater00> oh
21:41:56 <cheater00> no, not necessarily
21:42:09 <cheater00> depends on the harpa you have, there's no exactly single set standard
21:42:22 <cheater00> there isn't even a single standard for the keyboard, which is a problem in its own right
21:42:23 <Zwaarddijk> what do you mean by them being microtonal then?
21:42:33 <cheater00> you learn a fingering technique on one and it doesn't work on another one
21:42:51 <cheater00> i mean that they have tones in steps smaller than the semitone
21:42:59 <Zwaarddijk> ok
21:43:06 <Zwaarddijk> so roughly how is that scale constructed?
21:43:08 <cheater00> that's my definition of microtonality
21:43:23 <Zwaarddijk> I include any thing that is not exactly 12-tet in microtonal music
21:43:25 <cheater00> ti dunno
21:43:35 <cheater00> i think it's just traditional
21:43:47 <Zwaarddijk> because like, even if you have quartertones, the usual use of those in music that has them would be the neutral second
21:43:48 <cheater00> you know those things already existed in the 14th century
21:43:55 <Zwaarddijk> so you seldom actually use the quartertone
21:44:22 <Zwaarddijk> is it microtonal then?
21:44:35 <Zwaarddijk> if the main non-standard step is three quartertones, not one?
21:44:41 <cheater00> well yes it's not 12 tone equal temp
21:44:47 <Zwaarddijk> yeah but like
21:44:50 <Zwaarddijk> is 7-tet microtonal?
21:44:56 <cheater00> no it's not equal temp
21:45:07 <Zwaarddijk> it is an equal temperament
21:45:10 <cheater00> it's some weird wacky tuning i don't know
21:45:14 <cheater00> i don't think it is
21:45:19 <Zwaarddijk> ah, the harp
21:45:20 <Zwaarddijk> right
21:45:22 <Zwaarddijk> nyckelharp
21:45:26 <Zwaarddijk> yeah those aren't equal temp
21:45:38 <Zwaarddijk> equal temps were basically only theoretically known until the 19th c.
21:45:48 <Zwaarddijk> when we got the technology to actually tune them
21:46:02 <cheater00> yes
21:46:29 <Zwaarddijk> anyways, re: microtonality, there's a bunch of good just-inotnation intervals outside of 12-tet that sound good in rock and blues and jazz and so on
21:46:34 <Zwaarddijk> the seventh harmonic is one of those
21:46:48 <Zwaarddijk> it's about a sixth-tone flat from the dominant seventh
21:47:26 <cheater00> you know i find with fretless it's less important to think about scales
21:47:31 <cheater00> and more important to think about clusters
21:47:43 <Zwaarddijk> clusters?
21:47:51 <cheater00> yeah it's basically a way to put your fingers
21:47:54 <Zwaarddijk> ah
21:47:55 <cheater00> so that they support eachother
21:47:59 <Zwaarddijk> I'd never use that term like that
21:48:04 <cheater00> and you repeatedly can hit the same intervals
21:48:19 <Zwaarddijk> (I normally use it to signify stacked second-chords)
21:48:29 <cheater00> ah
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21:48:35 <cheater00> well i'm mostly talking out of my ass :D
21:48:43 <cheater00> so i might be using the term wrongly
21:48:54 <Zwaarddijk> scales decompose into parts, though
21:48:57 <cheater00> but like, if you're doing fretless, you end up doing a lot of small glissandos anyways
21:48:58 <oklopol> stacked second chords?
21:49:02 <Zwaarddijk> that one can learn to repeat a bit like such "clusters"
21:49:16 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: what you get if you strike your hand down on a piano on keys that are next to each other
21:49:19 <oklopol> you mean like AHC#D#F
21:49:26 <cheater00> and the important bit is to quickly hit a sonorous or discordant chord quickly
21:49:26 <oklopol> k
21:49:29 <Zwaarddijk> yeah
21:50:19 <Zwaarddijk> for a while I actually had my guitar tuned so I'd easily get clusters
21:50:27 <Zwaarddijk> with full on dist, it was a pretty neat thing
21:50:36 <Zwaarddijk> could work out nice in some avant-punk style
21:50:48 <oklopol> my tuning is A Eb A Eb A Eb A
21:51:16 <Zwaarddijk> seriously?
21:51:19 <oklopol> yes
21:51:24 <cheater00> why?
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21:51:34 <Zwaarddijk> that makes ower chords a tad awkward
21:51:40 <oklopol> it's the best i've come up with
21:51:44 <cheater00> hah
21:51:46 <oklopol> what are ower chords
21:51:52 <Zwaarddijk> *power chords
21:51:53 <cheater00> they're like power chords
21:51:54 <Zwaarddijk> my p-key sucs
21:51:58 <cheater00> but with one finger less
21:52:01 <Zwaarddijk> my k-key too
21:52:05 <oklopol> i used AEADGCF previously
21:52:06 <cheater00> lol
21:52:26 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: i just use A Eb A chords
21:52:29 <oklopol> mostly
21:52:43 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: what styles do you play?
21:53:04 <oklopol> nothing currently, but hopefully starting a new project soon
21:53:20 <Zwaarddijk> what styles interest you, then?
21:53:41 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK-JiyDbp7E here's my current favorite band prolly
21:54:04 <Zwaarddijk> nice
21:54:11 <oklopol> mainly that stuff.
21:54:13 <elliott> oklopol is potatoes
21:54:44 <Zwaarddijk> then I understand why you'd tune your guitar in tritones
21:54:53 <oklopol> although i also like playing simple stuff
21:55:24 <Zwaarddijk> I have considered switching to a seven-string string-set on my guitar, because the high e sounds a bit too muffled now
21:55:25 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: it's not guaranteed we'll get it to work even for metal, but i like trying crazy things.
21:57:01 <Zwaarddijk> I would like to introduce some microtonal harmonies into all kinds of genres.
21:57:11 <Zwaarddijk> but another dream I have is to arrange a lot of death metal classics for big band
21:57:24 <Zwaarddijk> and vice versa, arrange a lot of swing classics as death metal
21:57:39 <Zwaarddijk> maybe I should do it with black metal instead and just wait for the death threats
21:57:54 <oklopol> i'd love to hear faceless played with something like an orchestra
21:58:13 <Zwaarddijk> this thing some metal bands have of
21:58:18 <Zwaarddijk> doing things with a classical orchestra
21:58:28 <Zwaarddijk> (I find it somewhat pretentious, and I don't think it sounds that good, ultimately)
21:58:32 <Zwaarddijk> would be fun doing that with a big band instead
21:58:50 <Zwaarddijk> or math core with a woman's choir
21:59:00 <Zwaarddijk> *women's
21:59:01 <elliott> :D
21:59:02 <oklopol> doing faceless with a classical orchestra would be nowhere close to what metal people do with orchestras
21:59:21 <elliott> if you use an orchestra you aren't allowed to use guitars of any kind
21:59:26 <elliott> them's the rules
21:59:38 <Zwaarddijk> I actually considered for a while to try and get a band together that'd do like
22:00:08 <Zwaarddijk> relatively complex three-voice (or even four-voice) arrangements of metal songs
22:00:09 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASzIvMddyxA <<< the squeak thing the guitars keep repeating here, consider 3 violins playing a high cluster
22:00:10 <oklopol> mmmmmm
22:00:29 <Zwaarddijk> like, some angel dust-era faith no more and that kind of style
22:00:34 <Zwaarddijk> with three or four female vocalists
22:01:14 <lament> you know what sucks, any attempt to combine metal and classical
22:01:24 <Zwaarddijk> yes
22:01:26 <Zwaarddijk> but even worse
22:01:29 <Zwaarddijk> the people fawning over it
22:01:37 <Zwaarddijk> and the metalheads that think "metal is the new classical"
22:01:47 <lament> well in a sense it is
22:01:47 <Zwaarddijk> no it's not - one fucking rule: parallel fifths, man!
22:01:52 <elliott> jazz is the new metal
22:01:56 <elliott> DISCUSS
22:01:58 <Zwaarddijk> lament: what sense would that be?
22:02:13 <oklopol> in the sense that metal is where the interesting stuff happens nowadays
22:02:20 <Zwaarddijk> not really.
22:02:27 <Zwaarddijk> the interesting stuff happens in far underground places.
22:02:30 <Zwaarddijk> in every genre.
22:02:37 <oklopol> yeah i suppose
22:02:38 <lament> in the sense that it's one of the few remaining genres where people are interested in technical ability
22:03:04 <lament> and it's melody-based, roughly
22:03:07 <Zwaarddijk> lament: yeah but throughout common practice, parallel fifths were banned, and common practice is still pretty important a guideline for what to consider properly classical
22:03:15 <lament> Zwaarddijk: no, that's bullshit
22:03:18 <elliott> lol
22:03:22 <elliott> define classical :P
22:03:29 <lament> parallel fifths are like the rule about not ending a sentence with a preposition
22:03:34 <lament> it's not a real thing
22:03:39 <Zwaarddijk> oh, sure, they do occur
22:03:39 <Zwaarddijk> but in metal
22:03:43 <Zwaarddijk> they are the fucking bread and butter
22:03:46 <Zwaarddijk> of every fucing song
22:03:47 <lament> eh
22:03:52 <lament> in metal they're part of chords
22:03:58 <lament> just like they're part of chords everywhere else
22:03:59 <elliott> that's not really relevant is it
22:04:00 <Zwaarddijk> so?
22:04:05 <Zwaarddijk> _voice leading_
22:04:05 <lament> it's just that in metal there's nothing else in those chords :)
22:04:06 <elliott> "this prescriptivist detail differs, THERE IS NO RELATION!!!!"
22:04:12 <Zwaarddijk> in metal, there's no voice leading
22:04:19 <Zwaarddijk> or very primitive such
22:04:28 <lament> in much classical, too
22:04:44 <lament> and you should think of a power chord as one voice
22:04:49 <Zwaarddijk> yeah but the metalheads that fawn over it
22:04:50 <lament> not two separate parallel voices
22:04:54 <Zwaarddijk> compare metal to the great masters
22:04:55 <lament> because that's what it sounds like
22:04:57 <elliott> i tripped over my power chord
22:04:58 <Zwaarddijk> not to the hoi polloi composers
22:05:12 <Zwaarddijk> lament: and the reason why they're forbidden is that it sounds like one voice.
22:05:18 <elliott> wow, that's the first time i've ever seen anyone actually wite hoi polloi
22:05:19 <oklopol> eh
22:05:29 <lament> Zwaarddijk: so?
22:05:35 <Zwaarddijk> cool guitars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXaIwvXa3SI
22:05:41 <lament> they do sound like one voice
22:05:44 <lament> why is that bad?
22:06:06 <lament> a bunch of organ voices play several notes an octave apart
22:06:08 <Zwaarddijk> lament: well my main objection really is that the metalheads that do fawn over how it's the new classical are just pretentious fucks
22:06:25 <Zwaarddijk> lament: every instrument has frequencies octaves apart
22:06:30 <Zwaarddijk> whatever tone you play
22:06:36 <lament> yeah, same with fifths
22:06:38 <oerjan> <Zwaarddijk> but another dream I have is to arrange a lot of death metal classics for big band <-- iiuc you'd have to change your nick to Sverdvoll then...
22:06:51 <oerjan> oh wait
22:07:41 <Zwaarddijk> lament: actually there's usually no overtone at the fifth
22:07:44 <Zwaarddijk> there's at the fifth's octave, though
22:07:51 <lament> ugh
22:07:54 <lament> i don't give a fuck
22:07:57 <Zwaarddijk> and at the third's octave's octave, etc
22:08:10 <lament> all i know is a power chord is supposed to sound like one thick sound
22:08:14 <Zwaarddijk> but still, the only thing metal shares with classical is fascination with technique
22:08:19 <Zwaarddijk> but some classical had fascination with voice leading
22:08:36 <Zwaarddijk> and that's easier to find in pop music these days!
22:08:48 <Zwaarddijk> (tho' it's probably most prominent in jazz)
22:09:39 <lament> w/e
22:09:42 <Zwaarddijk> so anyone could find some reason to claim having inherited something from classical
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22:21:09 <oklopol> "<Zwaarddijk> that makes ower chords a tad awkward" erm why? do you use all fifths or what
22:21:26 <oklopol> power chords are easier with tritone tuning than with all fourths
22:21:47 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: yeah but if you want a full seven-string power chord, ...
22:21:56 <Zwaarddijk> why not DADADAD
22:21:59 <Zwaarddijk> er
22:22:03 <Zwaarddijk> ADADADA
22:22:38 <oklopol> i don't like playing scales over fifth jumps, and i don't like having different jumps between strings
22:22:41 <oklopol> i'm not smart enough for that
22:23:10 <oklopol> could never really learn the guitar before i retuned it to all-fourths
22:23:14 <oklopol> well
22:23:17 <oklopol> slight exaggeration there
22:23:28 <oklopol> but it always annoyed me
22:24:10 <Zwaarddijk> the G-H thing does help a lot with some chord voicings if you need them
22:24:24 <oklopol> yeah
22:24:29 <Zwaarddijk> but ... I wouldn't really need them
22:24:38 <oklopol> but i don't do chords that much
22:24:43 <Zwaarddijk> and I have noticed sccales are more natural on the five-stringed bass than on a normal guitar
22:24:52 <Zwaarddijk> when I do chords, I generally either play classical stuff or jazz
22:25:09 <Zwaarddijk> and in jazz, you can play pretty minimalistic voicings
22:26:16 <oklopol> i don't know what voicings are
22:26:22 <oklopol> at least not in english
22:27:08 <Zwaarddijk> the way you arrange the tones of the chord
22:27:14 <oklopol> oh ok
22:27:53 <Zwaarddijk> like, if you play a G7 in jazz, you'll prolly have a G (or a D), an F and a H
22:27:58 <Zwaarddijk> in some order
22:28:01 <Zwaarddijk> and nothing else
22:28:20 <Zwaarddijk> depending on the previous and next chords, and so on
22:28:43 <Zwaarddijk> one common way of playing that would be 3x34xx
22:29:14 <Zwaarddijk> altho' x534xx would intrude less on the bass territory
22:30:07 <Zwaarddijk> xx34x3 could also work
22:30:22 <Zwaarddijk> xx343x definitely works
22:30:39 <oklopol> i think i'm seeing a pattern here
22:30:51 <oklopol> you need a 3-subset of the chord!
22:31:26 <Zwaarddijk> some just play the tritone
22:31:29 <Zwaarddijk> xx34xx
22:31:42 <Zwaarddijk> because that's the most dissonant part of the chord, and hence the most defining part of it
22:31:50 <oklopol> i'm sure you can play almost anything in context
22:31:52 <Zwaarddijk> also you can do some substitutions
22:31:56 <Zwaarddijk> so like
22:32:06 <Zwaarddijk> instead of a G7, you can play a C#/
22:32:50 <Zwaarddijk> which would be xx342x
22:33:12 <oklopol> playing stuff in C major?
22:33:31 <Zwaarddijk> yeah, if we're in C maj, G7 ~= C#7
22:33:36 <oklopol> or just in general you can stick a C# in a G7?
22:33:48 <Zwaarddijk> the / was a typo
22:33:55 <Zwaarddijk> if you have a song with the chord progression
22:34:04 <Zwaarddijk> C Dmin G7 C
22:34:05 <lament> you know what sucks? jazz
22:34:06 <Zwaarddijk> you can switch it to
22:34:11 <Zwaarddijk> C Dmin C#7 C
22:34:19 <Zwaarddijk> and you get a nice chromatic desscent
22:35:08 <Zwaarddijk> you could also probably switch the G7 to a G#min6?
22:36:23 <Zwaarddijk> Dmin6 probably won't cover as a substitute dominant though?
22:37:14 <oklopol> i guess we can agree on all kinds of random shit sounding good
22:38:05 <lament> unfortunately it's far from random
22:38:14 <lament> jazz theory is a prescriptivist paradise
22:38:19 <Zwaarddijk> I wonder what kind of grammar modern treatments of harmony require to be expressed
22:38:26 <lament> ^ see
22:38:34 <Zwaarddijk> lament: jazz approach is far more descriptive than prescriptive
22:38:41 <Zwaarddijk> *the jazz approach
22:39:00 <Zwaarddijk> someone invents something and it sounds good? theorists will want to explain why it sounds good, and come up with a description
22:39:09 <Zwaarddijk> others read waht he did, and learn from it
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22:39:40 <zzo38> Play chess, where if player coughs, he loses one of his pawns.
22:39:44 <lament> yeah and they can all go fuck themselves. what a bunch of losers.
22:39:53 <oklopol> :D
22:40:05 <Zwaarddijk> lament: I guess that's your business, to tell them that?
22:40:27 <lament> yeah
22:40:41 <lament> i'm quite prescriptive in my approach to jazz
22:41:31 <oklopol> that sounds better than the approach to music i've seen among the metal people i know, "just play whatever sounds good"
22:41:45 <oklopol> although lament loves that stuff because he's gay
22:41:56 <oklopol> sounding good is just a distraction
22:43:35 <Zwaarddijk> this is what music should sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79rHMifBODs
22:43:53 <Zwaarddijk> or this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAFTpLzMerw
22:44:51 <lament> lol
22:45:38 <oklopol> i'm not getting it
22:45:48 <oklopol> i like the atmosphere tho
22:45:56 <oklopol> would work in an elevator
22:46:11 <Zwaarddijk> (the same musician has composed both of those)
22:46:18 <elliott> more like poosician
22:46:48 <zzo38> Different music should sound like different! Including, piano, organ, harp, computer, equal temperant, just intonation, Bohlen-Pierce, slow, fast, loud, quiet, major, minor, etc.
22:46:59 <oklopol> ^ words of wisdom
22:47:06 <elliott> my favourite instrument is the quiet
22:47:25 <lament> my favourite instrument is the shut the fuck up
22:47:30 <zzo38> I don't think the quiet is an instrument...?
22:48:06 <Zwaarddijk> the quiet is the best instrument
22:48:08 <elliott> lament: can you set +m for a while, that would be awesome
22:48:08 <Zwaarddijk> if used sparsely
22:48:14 <lament> true
22:48:15 <zzo38> Equal temperament is not an instrument either, although most musical instruments can be used with it.
22:48:18 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: my second-favourite instrument is the loud
22:48:29 <elliott> i've made entire albums just by alternating quiet and loud
22:48:33 <elliott> SO VERSATILE
22:48:47 <Zwaarddijk> elliott: sounds like a rather revolutionary approach to music
22:48:55 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: sometimes
22:49:00 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: i even play the MEDIUM VOLUME
22:49:06 <Zwaarddijk> I thought quiet and loud never existed in mixed ensembles?
22:49:06 <elliott> and
22:49:16 <elliott> if i'm feeling really avant garde
22:49:18 <elliott> i play the slow
22:49:26 <zzo38> Yes, that is why you can use the pianoforte instrument to make an album that alternates quiet and loud, and even medium volume. (Commonly the pianoforte is called "piano" for short)
22:49:38 <elliott> COMMONLY
22:49:43 <Zwaarddijk> elliott: the slow is old, though
22:49:46 <Zwaarddijk> but in the 80s
22:49:50 <Zwaarddijk> thrash musicians invented the fast
22:49:56 <elliott> lol
22:50:00 <elliott> you think THRASH fuckers invented the fast?
22:50:05 <elliott> you really ARE a clueless moron
22:50:08 <Zwaarddijk> which they only used with loud
22:50:10 <elliott> beethoven invented the fast in 1994
22:50:26 <elliott> anyway fuck you all, i'm going to go play the just intonation
22:50:44 <lament> is my dick a musical instrument
22:51:02 <elliott> the just intonation is an euphemism for the penis
22:51:03 <elliott> idiot
22:51:03 <Zwaarddijk> lament: blow it and tell us if it made a sound!
22:51:26 <elliott> my favourite instrument is the minor
22:51:30 <oklopol> lament: do you play the fast with it?
22:51:36 <elliott> the sound it makes when you blow it is just incredible
22:51:43 <Zwaarddijk> elliott: but those are illegal to riff on
22:51:59 <elliott> sometimes i even smash my just intonation into the minor to make some music
22:52:12 <elliott> one such piece i performed is titled "My Penis in A Minor", you can find it on the googles.
22:52:15 <Zwaarddijk> and playing licks on the minor gets you behind bars
22:52:16 <oklopol> it's funny because he actually is a pedophile
22:52:23 <elliott> oklopol: that is precisely why it is funny.
22:52:39 <oklopol> that is, he likes the girls on his class
22:52:48 <Zwaarddijk> ah
22:52:52 <lament> elliott: are you still 12?
22:52:55 <oklopol> get it? he's like 12
22:53:01 <elliott> lament: no, i'm now actually 11
22:53:05 <lament> oh
23:04:23 <cheater00> oklopol: i heard there's some overlap between bands who do heavy metal like what you linked, and dark psy
23:04:26 <cheater00> funnily enough
23:04:37 <oklopol> what's dark psy
23:04:38 <cheater00> probably because the tempo's the same and they're both scary-music genres
23:04:42 <cheater00> it's like uh
23:04:45 <cheater00> let me link you to something
23:04:46 <oklopol> scary-music genres?
23:05:01 <oklopol> the faceless mostly sings about aliens and space stuff
23:05:08 <oklopol> i don't think they try to be very scary
23:05:34 <cheater00> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqprNp2J1wQ
23:06:17 <oklopol> that's like the antifaceless. that's the faceful.
23:06:27 <olsner> the faceless?
23:06:44 <cheater00> wouldn't the antifaceless be like the ... buttless?
23:07:12 <olsner> or the buttful?
23:07:47 <oklopol> olsner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Cz2dFTlSA
23:08:52 <oklopol> the most progressive thing i've found that i can actually understand
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23:09:08 <oklopol> not that progressive, but then again i'm not very smart
23:09:15 <Lymia> Hmm..
23:09:29 <Lymia> Is fixed point with 64-bit values usually faster, or are floating point operations usually faster?
23:09:46 <elliott> They don't give equivalent results, so how can we compare?
23:10:02 <olsner> I think xor will probably be even faster
23:10:12 <elliott> I think nop will probably be fastest of them all.
23:11:20 <cheater00> oklopol: that faceless track is funny in a cheezy way
23:11:56 <oklopol> funny? you must have some sort of braindamage
23:12:03 <cheater00> erm
23:12:05 <cheater00> i meant fun
23:12:09 <cheater00> not funny
23:12:09 <oklopol> okay good
23:12:11 <elliott> i hate astronauts
23:12:15 <elliott> they're so funny
23:12:21 <cheater00> and no, not brain damage, just past my bedtime
23:12:25 <oklopol> i'm very protective of my little facelessie
23:12:39 <cheater00> oklopol: faceless is FUNNY!!!
23:12:45 <cheater00> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111eleven
23:13:00 <oklopol> :((
23:13:07 <cheater00> >:D
23:13:22 <cheater00> >>>>>:D
23:13:33 <oklopol> that song i just linked isn't really their best work
23:14:54 <cheater00> is that why it's so funny :-\
23:15:16 <oklopol> also i should prolly listen to more stuff, but i have the same problem as with everything except math, i only listen to music because i want to *not* think for once, so i prefer listening to the same stuff over and over again.
23:15:33 <oklopol> i guess that's common enough
23:15:52 <cheater00> haha same here
23:15:57 <cheater00> i have this issue..
23:15:58 <oklopol> *i mostly listen to
23:16:11 <cheater00> but like, i started listening to operas lately and it's good braindead music
23:16:16 <oklopol> :P
23:16:20 <oklopol> i'm sure it is
23:16:24 <cheater00> palestrina is a good one
23:16:35 <cheater00> get it
23:16:45 <oklopol> no i don't get it, can you explain
23:16:50 <oklopol> (i did get it)
23:16:55 <oklopol> (but i'm not sure i'll get it)
23:18:24 <cheater00> no sorry this is only for smart people
23:18:32 <cheater00> i guess it's a high-brow one for ya
23:18:52 <cheater00> don't worry though i bet you'll be fine watching your eastenders and eating your cod n chippies
23:18:58 <oklopol> i'm very, very slow
23:19:00 <oklopol> in my head
23:19:25 <oklopol> when others have gotten there i'm still like wait what
23:19:29 <cheater00> well maybe one day you'll have a son who can only gain control of his left foot and will become a writer
23:19:36 <cheater00> then you'll die of heart attack
23:19:50 <oklopol> i don't even get that reference
23:19:59 <cheater00> "my left foot"?
23:20:13 <cheater00> never seen that movie? it's a classic
23:20:22 <oklopol> oh yeah i've seen that on family guy
23:20:29 <cheater00> ...
23:20:44 <cheater00> dot, dot, dot
23:20:53 <oklopol> not so funny now that i know it's a reference to something
23:21:17 <cheater00> yeah it's a reference to christy brown, a real person.
23:21:28 <elliott> you know what's awesome
23:21:29 <cheater00> it was his biopic
23:21:29 <elliott> death
23:21:31 <oklopol> yeah don't care
23:21:36 <cheater00> elliott: totally go for it
23:21:50 <oklopol> real persons are even worse than movies
23:21:58 <cheater00> elliott: make sure to send us a postcard from kerberos
23:22:03 <elliott> one day i will make a film about oklopol
23:22:07 <elliott> and he'll hate me
23:22:10 <oklopol> :D
23:22:17 <elliott> even though it'll just be like
23:22:21 <elliott> 120 minutes of constant oklopol fanboyism
23:22:34 <cheater00> oklopol: yeah but at least with real persons you don't have to rewind them after watching
23:22:35 <oklopol> 120 minutes of me ircing naked in my armchair
23:22:45 <elliott> or that yes
23:22:54 <cheater00> oklopol: isn't that the same
23:23:09 <oklopol> i suppose i suppose
23:23:10 <cheater00> what better movie for oklopol fans than oklopol naked
23:23:17 <cheater00> for ALL 120 minutes
23:23:28 <oklopol> i've linked a vid of me playing the piano naked here once
23:23:29 <cheater00> starting with the first second and ending with the last
23:23:35 <cheater00> like, not even dressing out
23:23:39 <elliott> i watched that!
23:23:42 <elliott> i think
23:23:46 <oklopol> prolly
23:23:47 <cheater00> just.. naked
23:24:00 <cheater00> so anyways
23:24:38 <cheater00> oklopol: i think there's some operatic heavy metal too
23:24:43 <cheater00> ever listen to that stuff?
23:24:49 <oklopol> like what?
23:24:57 <oklopol> i was totally into nightwish as a kid (i still like it)
23:26:59 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7HvBLtt1g&feature=related this stuff
23:27:19 <oklopol> erm
23:27:25 <oklopol> that's a weird version but anyhoe
23:28:26 <oklopol> not really "operatic" at all i suppose
23:29:16 <elliott> ZSTG7Y8UKOPL
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23:40:55 <elliott> That tswett character should be back now.
23:41:53 <oklopol> i agree
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