tag into a page on the wiki. 02:55:04 But then it fails to save, you have to remove it before it will save a copy. 02:55:21 I used the raw signature feature. 02:55:37 zzo38: um that's obviously not what we try to do... 02:56:03 um or do you mean there is something _else_ that removes div's other than the failure to save... 02:57:06 my internet is horid :-\ 02:57:34 No, it is based on what data the server receives from the client, only. 02:57:45 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:58:06 well that still doesn't explain why i cannot get it to work with ... hm 02:58:50 -!- variable has joined. 02:59:51 elliott: i got closer again, but without subst the

gets converted to text, again 03:00:02 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit). 03:00:44 -!- variable has joined. 03:01:48 dammit {{subst:tag|div {{{1}}}}}{{{2}}}{{subst:tag|/div}} 03:02:16 somehow doesn't work when i actually _use_ it :( 03:02:18 hm... 03:04:30 elliott: Template:div now contains

{{{2}}}

03:04:48 but that somehow doesn't get properly transcluded 03:06:02 oh! 03:07:25 elliott: i think my problem might be that wp template syntax uses attrib=value for its own purposes 03:08:46 Do you like this kind of chess game? http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=nwolff-cvgameroom-2011-95-172&submit=Print 03:09:17 elliott, why was I under the impression that the bonus CD had Uplink's source coe? 03:09:30 * Sgeo_ legally obtains the CD 03:11:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 03:11:55 success! 03:12:05 {{div|1=style="color:red"|2=test}} 03:12:08 works! 03:12:20 * Sgeo_ 's oerjan 03:12:34 OK, now it is good. 03:12:50 (Still, I think

is not needed much, but at least now you figured it out, in case you do need it.) 03:13:40 You can use style= with other HTML tags, too (see the DottyWeb templates). 03:17:41 Black player has already lost the king's bishop's pawn 03:20:39 -!- lament has joined. 03:21:18 Here is such a completed game, using the same rules: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chesslog/1.htm 03:23:36 I can see five ways in which the black player can get out of check, in the final position, but none of them seem to work (which probably is why they resigned). 03:28:22 Do you know this game? 03:28:30 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:31:16 zzo38, what do you think about combos that can give infinite mana, or infinite other resources? 03:33:02 Sgeo_: I prefer Limited rather than Constructed. It might still be possible, but now you have to both draft, and build a deck, and then play, too. As long as you do not too much of such cards that makes it easy in the set, it should not be much of the problem. However, this would work better if mana burn is still used. 03:34:38 Sgeo_: Did you understand what I write? Or, did I do it wrong? 03:35:39 I don't understand how mana burn avoids the possibility of infinite mana. My understanding is that you can make only as much as you need for whatever you want anyway 03:35:52 But yeah, if you prefer non-Constructed, that could get in the way 03:37:24 It does not avoid the possibility, but in some cases mana burn will make it more difficult, depending on what kind of combos, and stuff like that. Once, I was watching a game, someone had a card they played a land already, got sixteen mana (from one land), played a card, the next card in their library was Island (they have the one making you reveal it all the time), so they lost due to mana burn. 03:38:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:40:18 In some combos, it is true you only have the amount you need. But some such combos might not work that way. Especially if opponent has a enchantment that makes cards produce more mana than it is, they can play it on your cards, or global to affect both player's cards, then you might become mana burned. 03:42:51 This is what I mean. 03:50:29 SCREW YOU PROCRASTINATION 03:50:30 SO MUCH 03:51:34 pikhq, oh? 03:54:58 hi 03:55:09 success! 03:55:09 {{div|1=style="color:red"|2=test}} 03:55:09 works! 03:55:10 ah yes 03:55:17 Ohai. I am busy not working on something I should be. 03:55:29 pikhq: Tupising something? :P 03:55:49 oerjan: is there no way to generalise div to arbitrary tags? 03:56:05 I would prefer {{tag|div|one=...|...}} 03:56:52 elliott: Nope, just redditing. 03:58:54 oerjan: Also, do you mind if I make it {{span|attrs=...|text=...}}? 03:59:04 In fact... you don't need the one=. 03:59:09 {{span|=attrib="value"|foo}} should work. 03:59:58 So, is oerjan working on a replacement for our "favorite" markup language or something? 04:00:08 oerjan working on something practical? 04:00:11 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 04:00:18 no, we're just circumventing the wiki's spam protection 04:00:34 Hey, he worked on... That thing. With the thing. 04:09:25 pikhq: BTW, AFAICT autoconf is essentially a really ugly expert system. 04:09:33 (OK, so just about EVERYTHING is an expert system, but still.) 04:10:32 pikhq: You want: "A C99 compiler, and the libraries zlib and libpng", and you would prefer "Medium optimisation and debugging info"; and the software knows how to try and find a piece of software on a wide variety of system configurations. 04:10:40 (i.e. human knowledge) 04:10:59 From this, it figures out how to compile your program as close to the way you and the user (CC variable etc.) want it as possible. 04:19:58 pikhq: HI 04:21:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 04:21:46 elliott, Uplink conduct: Never use InterNIC 04:21:51 lol 04:21:57 Uplink conduct: Never use proxies. Ever. 04:22:17 Uplink conduct: Don't erase your tracks, just complete the game before anyone traces you. 04:23:01 * Sgeo_ is seriously wondering if it's possible to play without InterNIC 04:23:18 Would some organization necessarily know that its logs were hacked into? 04:23:18 elliott: Yeah, that sounds like what autoconf is trying to do. 04:23:46 pikhq: So it just has to be made MOAR GENERIC 04:24:04 elliott: Oh dear God no, it is far too generic. 04:24:12 elliott: It's a fucking shell script generator. 04:24:15 I used LodePNG in my own program due to simplicity, instead of libpng. LodePNG is a single file, if compiled by a C compiler it will use C mode fine, but it can also be compiled with a C++ compiler to use the object-oriented features of C++ (but I just use the C mode). 04:24:15 pikhq: No, I mean in a way that actually _reduces_ the complexity. 04:24:19 pikhq: "(goal, knowledge) -> solution" is pretty much the definition of an expert system, so... 04:24:36 pikhq: You can easily factor out the "knowledge" into a bunch of system-specific files. 04:24:38 zzo38: libpng in and of itself isn't very complex. 04:24:56 So the "generic Unix" module would try "cc", "gcc", etc. in turn to find a C99 compiler. 04:25:14 And try pkg-config if it's there, or look in /lib, /usr/lib, ... to find a library, or just use the C compiler's -l. 04:25:33 elliott: Interesting idea. 04:25:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:25:46 elliott: Though that is actually a bit more specific than autoconf. 04:25:52 pikhq: It's pretty much autoconf if it didn't HARDCODE EVERY DAMN STEP :P 04:26:03 And howso? What the actual things to find are, are just abstract symbols. 04:26:07 elliott: Autoconf is literally a set of autoconf macros. 04:26:20 Erm, s/autoconf/ 04:26:29 Macros to generate a shell script. 04:26:36 You want X (say X is "a C99 compiler"). The things loaded for your system (which is determined by another set of this stuff) have a list of things to try to get an X, in order of preference. 04:26:41 pikhq: I used LodePNG simply because I can include it with my program, for one thing. 04:26:43 When they find them, they return a generic X. 04:26:48 So it just unifies the interfaces. 04:26:54 zzo38: I don't think you can't with libpng. 04:27:33 zzo38: Small handful of files, permissive license, only dependency is zlib. 04:27:48 ... And, of course, sane C compiler/C library. 04:28:54 Yes, libpng depends on zlib. LodePNG has no dependencies other than C standard library. 04:29:13 pikhq: [talking to a brick wall] 04:29:32 Still, I am not saying don't use libpng. Is just that I didn't use it. 04:29:32 LodePNG probably copy-pasted the zlib code. 04:29:44 Ok, this Uplink LP video just referenced both DS9 and Death Note 04:29:45 <3<3<3 04:29:52 And the guy's name seems to be Seth 04:30:00 I mean, to get PNG working you *need* to support the algorithm. 04:30:39 Not that there's much point. zlib is ubiquitous. 04:30:46 Yes, it does include the algorithm. But there is only two files: "lodepng.c" (or "lodepng.cpp") and "lodepng.h". 04:31:42 ... As is libpng, for that matter. 04:31:44 The documentation for libpng happens to have the wrong URL for zlib. 04:31:56 pikhq: [brick] 04:32:05 elliott: Oh, thanks. 04:32:10 * pikhq throws a brick at zzo38. 04:32:10 :P 04:32:11 Maybe submit the report and then they can correct it please. 04:32:53 I would prefer {{tag|div|one=...|...}} <-- it seemed like the subst: step is essential to prevent the tag from ending up as inert text... 04:33:03 oerjan: right 04:33:09 oerjan: well i made the interface slightly less ugly 04:33:14 {{div|_=foo|...}} 04:33:21 or if you have nested template applications (dunno why this needs this) 04:33:24 {{div|_=foo|text=...}} 04:33:28 _ because you end up doing 04:33:31 attrs=style="foo" otherwise 04:33:32 which looks retarded 04:33:55 oerjan: anyway, you're a hero of our time. like Obama and Bob the Builder, you have told us that yes we can. 04:34:01 {{span|=attrib="value"|foo}} should work. <-- well it didn't work when they were numbered 1 and 2, but maybe if the last is no. 1 it will. 04:34:20 oerjan: hnnnng i'm replying to you fucker 04:35:14 elliott: Yes, but Bob the Builder actually came through on that claim. 04:35:23 elliott: actually i was just wondering if it is necessary to include the ...

part in the template at all 04:35:24 and so did oerjan 04:35:33 "Yes we can! ... Keep the war going!" 04:35:35 let's give bob the builder a nobel peace prize 04:35:36 please 04:35:49 Definitely done more for world peace. 04:36:00 oerjan: as opposed to a {{/div}} template? 04:36:10 yes, that would be far preferable. shall i do that? 04:36:16 Of course, so's the shit I took an hour ago. 04:37:06 oerjan: CAN I DOOO THAT 04:37:39 pikhq: ps i was hating on obama before it was cool :ANTI-AMERICAN HIPSTER: 04:37:46 oerjan: hnnnng i'm replying to you fucker <-- i am the master of the backscroll *MWAHAHAHA* 04:38:10 oh my god ten minutes of masochistic geek porn 04:38:12 windows 04:38:16 being updated from the first vesrion 04:38:17 version 04:38:18 to the current 04:38:18 in order 04:38:35 elliott: To be perfectly fair, I was never a giant Obama fan. 04:38:46 pikhq: you should have seen reddit at the time. maybe you did 04:38:49 elliott: I did. 04:38:56 "WE LOVE RON PAUL OMG OMG" [Ron Paul gets kicked out of the race] 04:38:58 "OBAMA SO SEXY" 04:39:03 A LOGICAL CHANGE 04:39:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:39:42 omg 04:39:43 elliott: I felt that Obama was the best reasonably likely choice for President by the election, though. 04:39:45 he installed monkey island 04:39:48 everyone must watch this video 04:39:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14 04:40:06 Of course, then again, the alternative was fucking *McCain* and Sarah Derplin. 04:40:15 oerjan: as opposed to a {{/div}} template? <-- well is

itself actually blocked? 04:40:21 oerjan: let's find out 04:40:45 pikhq: Honestly, voting in the US is a complete waste of time. (And it's not saying things like that that causes Republicans to get elected, it's your voting system.) 04:40:51 oerjan: it indeed is not 04:40:56 oerjan: still, a {{/div}} tag would be nice for symmetry 04:41:00 oerjan: ok, I'll migrate the templates over 04:41:05 pikhq: you should watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14 04:41:06 SO AWEOMS 04:41:08 AWESOME 04:41:17 yes, that would be far preferable. shall i do that? <-- assuming it actually works. 04:41:19 elliott: Quite honestly, the main reason I vote is for local and state affairs. 04:41:35 pikhq: right. i mean at the presidential level 04:41:42 http://libpng.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=libpng/libpng;a=tree Many files and more than I require. For programs that need this complexity, good, let's use libpng. It has complicated makefiles and stuff. Why can't you just use the C compiler??? It is because GNU makes programs only in one size: extra-large. But at least is good they make license, you can use with other programs, too. 04:41:54 Yeah, I just vote there because I already have the ballot. 04:41:59 zzo38: ... 04:42:06 zzo38: LIBPNG IS NOT A GNU PROJECT 04:42:28 (the elections are all on the same ballot) 04:42:48 elliott: I know, but GNU Autoconf is. (So is GCC, but you can use GCC without Autoconf) 04:42:54 zzo38: You do realise that concatenating files together doesn't make a simpler library, right? :P 04:42:56 pikhq: You should write in JESUS 04:43:20 elliott: I do strategic voting on that. 04:43:47 pikhq: Yes I realize that. 04:43:52 pikhq: Honestly, it's not like you're much less fucked with the Dems :P 04:44:08 Actually you guys should elect some really, really terrible right-wing third-party, just to cause a meltdown. 04:44:10 You need it. 04:44:15 elliott: If someone fucking crazy has a chance of winning, and someone who's not as crazy also has a chance of winning, I vote for the less crazy. 04:44:36 elliott: Otherwise, I vote for someone who's actually good. 04:45:00 The damned voting system forces me into that. 04:45:16 Yeah, and if you continue to bend over and take it, it'll do so forever. 04:45:37 On the other hand, your options for revolution are really limited, because the main force in that area is the motherfucking Tea Party, and your country is unreasonably gigantic. 04:46:18 in other news (olds?), hitting the wiki's spam filter is really annoying since the back button frequently tends to wipe out what you were writing 04:46:42 oerjan: that's an IE thing 04:46:47 no other browsers have that problem 04:46:50 ok 04:47:00

04:47:00

Oh what a 04:47:00 day</span>! 04:47:00 </div> 04:47:00

04:47:03 ok, well that doesn't work 04:47:13 elliott: Yup, the US system is fucked. 04:47:23 oerjan: can you revert the templates to just before "after discussion with oerjan"? :D 04:47:27 i'm getting sick of this 04:47:32 i am used to copying the content before saving anyway 04:47:33 elliott: We're pretty much looking at the only change resulting from the whole thing going down in flames. 04:47:46 On the bright side, we seem to be doing just that! 04:48:03 elliott: what went wrong? 04:48:11 oerjan: mediawiki balances the html on template inclusion 04:48:20 ah. damn. 04:48:34 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Div&curid=3818&diff=22060&oldid=22056 04:48:34 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Span&curid=3819&diff=22059&oldid=22057 04:48:40 those are the diffs to revert to if you want to save me the effort :D 04:49:57 In short, I need a drink. 04:50:06 erm that "omit the "text=" " part should be included? 04:50:14 also i still am not an admin, recall 04:50:20 oerjan: yes it should 04:50:23 and you don't have to be 04:50:26 press edit, fix the top line, save 04:50:31 i've done it fifty times is all ;D 04:52:37 oerjan: ok so we have the templates to do it, it's just slightly awkward 04:52:56 oerjan: i invite you to take a look at http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ehird&action=edit and imagine how much I yearned for the ability to use div and span during its creation 04:53:06 i as a list item? whyever notX 04:53:10 erm as a list 04:53:11 u is the items 04:53:17 u inside i inside b 04:56:06 http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/tree/HEAD:/lodepng This is better file in case of not needed the other programs. Although even this file has things I don't need, too. 04:57:49 -!- macrohauler has joined. 04:57:57 elliott, still up an about? 04:58:02 Vorpal: >_> 04:58:06 and* 04:58:07 macrohauler: i remember your name 04:58:15 elliott, time for Log! 04:58:16 yeah i remember yours too :P 04:58:21 Vorpal: for Log? 04:58:29 macrohauler: yeah i'm that super annoying guy 04:58:32 elliott, yes. The Log. 04:58:37 Vorpal: THE LOG 04:58:47 Vorpal: wait did you just get up? 04:58:49 it's late night 04:58:59 elliott: can't recall anyone super annoying, but thanks for the heads up ;) 04:59:00 arvid=> select tstamp from irc.logs where nick = 'macrohauler' order by tstamp limit 1; 04:59:01 tstamp 04:59:01 --------------------- 04:59:01 2011-01-21 23:44:46 04:59:07 elliott, I just got up yes 04:59:08 wow, some time ago 04:59:17 elliott, it is 06:58 and the sun is up 04:59:26 Vorpal: yeah why would you get up so late in the night 04:59:28 vorpal: you in europe? 04:59:31 HOW can you PHYSICALLY get up so late in the night 04:59:35 is it even possible 04:59:48 macrohauler, yes, and so is elliott (one hour offset from me) 04:59:58 hm, same here, maybe we're all close? 05:00:06 elliott, I have to. Leaving for university in ~20 minutes. 05:00:11 it's 06:58 here as well, so vorpal we must be close 05:00:23 Vorpal: since when can higher wants override basic physiology? 05:00:47 clearly Vorpal has blown his human cover 05:00:48 elliott, since quite some time ago 05:00:51 macrohauler: Vorpal is in the immoral, atheistic, primitive country known as "Sverige" 05:00:53 Even, sometimes I can get up in the night, but, not always. 05:00:55 oerjan, dammit. 05:01:05 Vorpal: kunde fan tänka mig att du också kom från sverige ;) 05:01:09 hah 05:01:09 NOOOOOO 05:01:10 elliott: so do i lol :P 05:01:10 NOT MORE OF THEM 05:01:15 macrohauler, en till 05:01:15 hahah <3 05:01:26 so how many are we up in? 05:01:28 So, it is physically possible, of course. 05:01:32 TOO MANY 05:01:33 * oerjan gives elliott some factor 4 swede protection cream 05:01:37 lol 05:01:38 oerjan: thank you. 05:01:44 I am not capable to do impossible things, nor is anyone else. 05:01:59 me, macrohauler, olsner, FireFly, BeholdMyGlory. Did I miss anyone? 05:02:08 DON'T TELL HIM ABOUT THE SECRET SWEDES 05:02:08 And how many Norwegians? Just oerjan right? 05:02:20 Maybe you missed ONAFlalWMRklalckkmm 05:02:26 he has a good point 05:02:30 maybe you did. 05:02:46 zzo38, never heard of that guy/gal before 05:02:55 te prefers "gol" 05:03:00 whatever 05:03:05 Vorpal: you don't happen to live in malmö? 05:03:06 te's an intra-dimensional alien from outra space. 05:03:09 malmo 05:03:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:03:12 that's that place with all the crazy people 05:03:15 i believe Vorpal told me that 05:03:15 ;D 05:03:16 or was that umea 05:03:18 that was umea 05:03:20 D: 05:03:22 macrohauler, hell no! 05:03:24 lol 05:03:27 lol 05:03:28 HELL NO 05:03:35 what's so bad about malmö :p 05:03:35 NOT THE VICIOUS HELLHOLE KNOWN AS MALMÖ 05:03:37 and no, not Umeå 05:04:04 I hear Vorpal lives at the North Pole confirm/deny 05:04:08 macrohauler, well... Did you read the news the past few years? Rosengård and so on... 05:04:25 It has also been the scene of regular clashes between youth and police.[3] Fire crews have also been threatened and attacked by local youth. As a result, the Malmö Fire Department refuses to respond to fire calls in Rosengård without police escort.[4] 05:04:26 lol at that last bit 05:04:35 elliott, deny. I'm not Santa. If I were you wouldn't have gotten xmas presents last year. 05:04:38 like i said. a vicious and primitive country. 05:04:44 Vorpal: Santa lives at the South Pole idiot 05:04:53 what do you think that ""scientific station"" really is 05:04:58 wake up sheeple 05:04:59 elliott, oh. Right. 05:05:07 Vorpal: i live in malmö, i know all about the places, but tbh, the media love to make it seems worse than it really is 05:05:21 -!- augur has joined. 05:05:21 macrohauler, nothing new *there* 05:05:24 no the one at the south pole is the blue santa, his evil twin brother 05:05:41 , macrohauler said, fighting off the gang of immigrants on top of a burning tower 05:05:43 Vorpal: No, someone else would have given the presents if it isn't you. 05:05:58 In case you were Santa, someone else can instead, maybe? 05:06:07 XD 05:06:22 ah, brb 05:06:24 cya 05:06:25 i hope zzo38 never leaves us. 05:06:50 elliott, yes. We have way more priceless moments this way. Which is good for the economy. 05:06:59 for everything else there's mastercard 05:07:05 elliott, Visa 05:07:08 cue zzo38 telling us he doesn't own a credit card 05:07:10 Vorpal: whoosh 05:07:23 elliott, wait what? 05:07:29 http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=for+everything+else+there's+mastercard 05:07:39 elliott, yes I know 05:07:50 elliott: oh hm. the separate

tags on purpose to spam protect pages... 05:28:00 :D 05:28:03 BEST IDEA 05:28:33 it will not work against those that replace the _whole_ page, but it should work against those section adding ones 05:28:39 pikhq: Arrays aren't even portable sh, are they? 05:28:49 oerjan: not if they use the "+" link 05:28:57 oh hm right darn 05:29:11 oh well 05:30:55 oerjan: btw you mentioned melatonin a while ago. i can confirm it works excellently for putting you to sleep for good amounts of time. i tend to wake up slightly tired, but I think I'm just taking a bit too much. the real issue is making myself take it :D 05:31:18 but then with me it's just strong going-to-bed akrasia 05:31:32 does anyone have a simple way to map f keys to their numbers? :) <-- your laptop doesn't have a "use Fn to get numpad at jkluio789" feature like mine? i guess that doesn't help with the latter 3... 05:31:41 it doesn't, alas 05:31:45 they removed that from recent models. 05:32:31 oh hm i'm confused the Fn is just to start numlock 05:32:50 elliott: ... They actually may well be a GNUism. 05:32:56 pikhq: I think they are. 05:32:58 bashism, rather. 05:33:15 Actually, more likely a Kornism that bash adopted than anything else. 05:33:45 yeah 05:37:05 ... Huh. 05:37:31 Apparently each individual neuron peaks at about 200Hz. 05:38:00 So, the human brain is.... Several billion ~100Hz processors in parallel? 05:38:17 lol nice 05:38:23 No wonder the brain is both awesome and terrible at stuff. 05:38:54 less of "processors" and more of "complicated logic gates" 05:38:59 so ultimately an ai is not so impossible after all 05:39:11 what bearing does that have on the possibility of an AI? 05:39:18 i dunno ;D 05:39:34 i just don't think AI's are an impossibility 05:39:38 macrohauler: Of course an AI is not impossible. 05:39:42 I suppose it has some bearing on how easy it is to simulate a human brain, but I think it was already obvious that neurons themselves are pretty underpowered, the problem is that there's billions of the buggers :) 05:39:55 Neural Networks? 05:40:05 Insofar as we are aware, the entire set of processes in the human body are computable. 05:40:08 Neural networks haven't really paid off as far as I can tell. 05:40:13 They're good for some things, but for AI? Nah. 05:40:13 pikhq: well, a conscious AI 05:40:20 Ergo, it would be *possible* to make a Turing machine do it. 05:40:21 define consciousness 05:40:23 elliott: well, i think they're def the key 05:40:26 Ergo AI is possible. 05:40:29 Anything that computes the same things the brain computes is conscious by definition 05:40:51 Note that this completely ignores whether or not we're going to be doing it at all... 05:40:55 well, aware of them selves? as we're aware we exist, we're human.. the whole "i think therefore i am" thing 05:40:59 macrohauler: Neural networks _might_ be useful -- if you're trying to replicate a human brain. But that's only an intermediate goal if anything :) 05:41:02 pikhq: I'd wager that there's some quantum effects, but they aren't significant enough to seriously affect the ability to make an humanlike AI 05:41:05 Which is fundamentally a debate over whether engineering will rise to the task. 05:41:05 Define aware. Define self. 05:41:09 Define exists. 05:41:17 Yes, I'm being obstinate :) 05:41:23 elliott: dont get all philosophic on me 05:41:25 But the brain is just a really complicated Turing machine. 05:41:25 lol 05:41:33 macrohauler: You're the one who's doing that by bringing up consciousness :P 05:41:35 coppro: I'd imagine we could simulate such quantum effects as are relevant if we really needed to. 05:41:49 coppro: Just need a decent source of random numbers. 05:41:50 coppro: Turing machines can compute all the same things quantum computers can, just slower ;D 05:42:20 A Turing machine is deterministic 05:42:39 elliott: well, i do believe consciousness has nothing to do with how the human brain is built.. consciousness exists with everything, it's one with everything 05:42:48 macrohauler: elliott: dont get all philosophic on me 05:42:52 I believe the brain is nondeterministic 05:42:59 coppro: It was a joke of sorts. 05:43:02 Actually, on another note. There is no reason we could not directly *create* a human brain analog entirely from scratch. 05:43:19 The brain is matter which is created via reasonably well-understood processes. 05:43:35 pikhq: Sure. It'd be quite big though. 05:43:37 pikhq: faster to create a fertilized human egg cell :P 05:43:44 i just believe the way the human brain is built, makes us 'aware', if you like, of this consciousness 05:43:44 It's "merely" an engineering challenge to imitate the same using entirely man-made things. 05:43:45 At least I don't think we could build an artificial neuron small enough with our current tech. 05:43:47 coppro: Yes there are quantum effects and maybe you could simulate it I think. A source of random numbers might not be enough to actually count as "consciousness" though??? I don't know, it is philosophical. Anyways, you might not have enough memory or time if it is not a quantum computer. I also believe brain is nondeterministic, but there are high chance and low chance. 05:43:53 (can you imagine what the ethicists would say) 05:44:00 elliott: I'm not saying we could *with current tech*. 05:44:10 coppro: yeah, CLONING with MUTATIONS??? 05:44:12 elliott: Hence why I say it's "merely" an engineering challenge. 05:44:14 that should be BANNED 05:44:24 there are NO LAWS to REGULATE this kind of stuffXXXXX 05:44:27 zzo38: A Turing machine is fundamentally incapable of correctly simulating quantum effects 05:44:34 elliott: not cloning with mutations 05:44:38 AN ENTIRELY ARTIFICIAL HUMAN 05:44:42 coppro: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 05:44:44 CREATED BY MAN 05:44:47 WHAT HAVE WE WROUGHT 05:44:50 elliott: CYLONS 05:44:53 coppro: I am referring to breeding here, btw :P 05:44:59 It'd take a hell of a lot of research, but there's no reason to think we couldn't design a full artificial biology. 05:45:01 coppro: Yes, it is what I mean. You can, however, approximate it. But even approximation requires memory and time a lot. 05:45:11 Aside from, of course, us opting not to. 05:45:12 well, what about the cyborg rat? 05:45:20 So, try it using a quantum computer, to make something somewhat more accurate. 05:45:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:45:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 05:45:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:45:33 zzo38: A non-deterministic TM would do 05:45:40 or we could just not care about the quantum effects 05:45:51 It's unlikely they're significant enough that the brain depends on them to get conciousness 05:45:55 coppro: Good thing we can do non-determinism in the "real world". :) 05:46:04 Can someone type caret-nr for me 05:46:12 ^nr 05:46:12 `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+ 05:46:15 No output. 05:46:23 pikhq: INDEED 05:46:27 thanks 05:46:33 Just a geiger counter away. 05:46:49 elliott: the thing that amuses me about a purely artifical human being is that it would be COMPLETELY indistinguishable from a real human 05:46:53 but people would be pissed off 05:47:17 coppro: I'm not sure simulating a human is a worthwhile goal, to be honest 05:47:27 In that I don't think it'd teach us much/anything about how to build a better AI 05:47:42 elliott: oh, absolutely not 05:47:51 elliott: Simulating a human brain could at least *get* us a better AI hypothetically. 05:47:51 elliott: no but it wold be a helluvan achievement 05:47:55 designing a human egg cell from scratch would teach us little 05:48:03 macrohauler: An achievement, sure, I just dunno if it's something we should _bother_ doing :) 05:48:27 elliott: maybe we'd learn something valuable in the process of doing so? 05:48:42 elliott: Nothing like designing something from scratch, but hey, this simulated brain would no longer have an upper bound of practical skull size. 05:48:47 as how many brain diseases and damages works? 05:48:48 macrohauler: Like what? It'd be an exercise in simulating a neuron... were we to develop an AI from scratch, we would not use such low-level technology. 05:48:50 Then simulate some new brain and new egg cell, and new scratch..... instead of necessarily humans or AI, or Turing machines. 05:49:04 We wouldn't find anything more out about disease, we can already take images of the brain. 05:49:14 There are too many neurons to do a piece-by-piece analysis of them. 05:49:18 you NEVER know :P 05:49:26 No, but you can make good guesses :) 05:49:26 pikhq: your new assignment is to find me a jar to live in 05:49:31 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:49:34 coppro: i have this really nice jar for you 05:49:37 would you like to live in it 05:49:39 it is a bit small 05:49:42 i don't think you'll fit 05:50:07 elliott: I'll pay -$10000/month for it 05:50:16 coppro: that 05:50:19 coppro: that is not much 05:50:21 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7559150.stm 05:50:38 time for 05:50:39 THE NEWS HAM 05:50:40 -!- news-ham has joined. 05:50:42 news-ham 05:50:43 Cuckoos copy hawks to scare birds: Cuckoos' hawk-like plumage helps them avoid attacks from birds whose nests they are trying to invade, say scientists. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9458000/9458906.stm 05:51:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:58:06 Is there any kind of FEN notation for Shogi game? 05:59:02 Should only need a symbol for each piece, and use drop notation. 05:59:18 And those symbols exist. 05:59:19 So, yes. 05:59:41 Oh, wait, FEN notation, not algebraic. XD 06:00:29 But, still. Even if there isn't a defined one, it should be trivial. 06:02:27 Yes, but need two parts, one for board, one for pieces not on the board. And some way to indicate if it is promoted. One way to do so, is letters next in the alphabet used for promoted. 06:02:54 And then, to make tsume shogi, put the number of moves also at the beginning (odd numbers only). 06:03:17 The promoted-state of a piece is part of the symbol. 06:03:47 hmm 06:03:52 does C actually guarantee any kind of char arithmetic 06:03:54 i.e. 'B' == 'A'+ 06:03:56 + as a prefix for the Latin alphabet symbols, distinct name for the kanji abbreviations. 06:03:56 one 06:04:06 elliott: No. 06:04:10 Right. 06:04:23 elliott: Pretty sure POSIX does make those guarantees, though. 06:04:35 Kanji abbreviation you do have a distinct kanji for promoted/unpromoted. But if it is ASCII, you need it something else. One way is + sign prefix. 06:05:08 That is why, I was talking about using ASCII, and ASCII does not include kanji. 06:05:24 Anyways, even if it doesn't exist as a real "thing", it'd be very easy for you to define it, and pretty generally accepted by anyone who had the need. 06:06:19 elliott: It makes on guarantee; that '0' through '9' are contiguous 06:06:47 coppro: Strange thing to guarantee. 06:07:08 Though I suppose it *does* make itoa nicer. 06:07:10 'a' through 'z' is a bad guarantee; many real-world encodings violate it while '0' through '9' is near-universal 06:07:26 If '0' through '9' are contiguous then it means you can make ('0'+(x%10)) 06:07:32 Well, yeah, 'a' through 'z' is broken by EBCDIC. 06:08:12 yup 06:08:17 But I think there is problems with EBCDIC. ASCII is better. 06:08:38 * elliott argues with byuu 06:08:48 Yes, ASCII is significantly better than EBCDIC. 06:08:51 yep 06:08:57 wow, something we can all agree on 06:09:23 wasn't there some encoding that had 1-9 then 0 06:09:38 like baudot or something 06:09:39 are you thinking of keyboards :P 06:09:43 Still now exactly how I would have done, but at least ASCII is better than EBCDIC. 06:09:54 well they do too... 06:10:07 oerjan: No, baudot uses FIGURES mode and LETTERS mode. 'Q' is '1', 'W' is '2', and so on across the QWERTY keyboard. 06:10:22 as well as some phones 06:10:28 And neither the letters or numbers are in order. 06:10:28 oerjan: baudot has 1-9 followed by 0 lining up with QWERTYUIOP but the actual encoding of those is non-consecutive 06:10:41 ah 06:10:50 your MOM is in order 06:10:59 oerjan: Phones are perverse and different. 06:11:29 Remember, the phone system is based entirely around "what made sense 75-100 years ago". 06:11:50 Except *maybe* tone dialing. That's more like 50. 06:11:51 pikhq: HAVE YOU WATCHED THAT YOUTUBE VIDEO 06:11:52 It is so awesome. 06:11:54 elliott: Yes. 06:12:01 YES 06:12:03 elliott: I think I had linked it in here a month ago, actually. 06:12:06 You can upgrade from Windows one point oh to Seven and keep all your programsXXXXXXXxXXXXX 06:12:10 pikhq: Wasn't that another one? 06:12:12 How do I deal with "mater.pas:20: error: module/unit interface `Crt' could not be imported" I don't know 06:12:13 No. 06:12:15 I remember one for all IE versions or something. 06:12:19 Some other perverse thing. 06:12:21 1.0 to 7. 06:12:29 pikhq: That's what I said. 06:12:30 tone dialing actually makes sense as long as you're on an analog line 06:12:31 Pulse dialing is ten if you want zero. I think, more than ten at once is also same as zero. 06:12:36 I can't number, remember. 06:12:57 POSIX only provides the '0' ... '9' guarantee too. 06:13:10 FUCK YOU WITH YOUR FACTS 06:13:14 fizzie: I could've *sworn* it provided a guarantee of ASCII. 06:13:18 Aaaw man. 06:13:51 My programs usually depend on ASCII. 06:14:16 Mine don't 06:14:17 " Std 1003.1-2001 places only the following requirements on the encoded values of the characters in the portable character set: 06:14:17 # The encoded values associated with the digits 0 to 9 shall be such that the value of each character after 0 shall be one greater than the value of the previous character. 06:14:17 # [some others that aren't so related]" 06:14:25 Sometimes even including the control characters such as start-of-heading and things like that. 06:14:45 -!- Fuco has joined. 06:14:57 hello Fuco 06:15:04 fizzie: What are the others? 06:15:22 elliott: char is 8 bit. :) 06:15:28 Really? 06:15:39 But I would instead do the encoding that can do ('0'|(x&0xF)) 06:15:49 But, it isn't, since we use ASCII instead. 06:16:11 elliott: A null character, NUL, must exist and have the value of 0; all encoded values are representable by a single byte, and if it's stored in a char it's positive (except for NUL), and then one complicated condition about locales. 06:16:19 fizzie: OCTET 06:16:22 Silly. 06:16:25 No, byte. 06:16:27 At least ASCII is not that bad, though. I just say what would be had I been the people who design the coding. 06:16:27 Or is it just... byte. 06:16:31 Okay, well that doesn't mean much :) 06:16:36 Though I think they do define CHAR_BIT == 8 elsewhere, yes. 06:16:46 "and if it's stored in a char it's positive" Er. 06:16:49 Doesn't glibc used signed char? 06:17:43 elliott: Doesn't violate that for ASCII. 06:17:53 elliott: Remember, ASCII is a 7-bit encoding. 06:17:55 Oh, right. 06:18:10 The "portable character set" itself is much larger than what C provides, though; it's basically all non-control ASCII characters, plus a few of the control ones. 06:18:59 More like portable character sex. 06:19:54 SO ANYWAY DERP DERP DERP 06:20:08 DERP 06:20:10 DERP DERP 06:20:38 CWEB does have a command @' if you want to ensure ASCII codes, but it doesn't always provide the solution. You would still need to add the stuff to your program to convert the codes. 06:20:49 Really wish C made a few stronger guarantees. 06:21:02 Like, @'0'==48 always. 06:21:42 Though I can at least understand why it doesn't: at the time, it was entirely plausible you'd actually have a system without an ASCII-oid character set in use. 06:21:55 Or pointers of distinct sizes for distinct types. 06:22:03 /sniff /cry my earthporn post isn't popular SNIFF CRY 06:22:09 o how worthless my life is 06:22:25 oh, the thumbnail is broken. that might have something to do with it. 06:23:01 Right, the POSIX CHAR_BIT == 8 was sort of implied, not explicit; (1) C itself says CHAR_BIT >= 8; (2) C99 says "intN_t" has width of N, no padding bits and a two's complement representation; (3) POSIX says int8_t is required (not just optional), and since sizeof(int8_t) must be 1 (as CHAR_BIT >= 8) and int8_t can have no padding, CHAR_BIT == 8. 06:23:04 I do suppose, some computers might be possible to be made with distinct pointers, and some other things, including able to have things which are not work in C at all. 06:24:46 Maybe sizeof(int*)!=sizeof(int**) is there any such computers? 06:25:08 Probably there are. 06:25:14 Although I would expect char there, not int. 06:25:21 Since one can imagine a smaller "string pointer" space. 06:25:28 Yes, for sizeof(char*) != sizeof(char**) there probably are. Though not for that reason. 06:25:33 -!- Fuco has quit (Quit: Quit). 06:25:37 Well, maybe for that reason too, but still. 06:26:00 oerjan: robots? 06:26:21 Some Crays have longer-than-usual char*s, since it encodes (in two words) first a pointer to the word, then the character offset; the memory's not very byte-addressable, but they still fake 8-bit bytes. 06:26:37 Crays sound like total DS9Ks. 06:26:40 I'm not sure it's worth the OMG SPEED. 06:26:50 --omg-optimize 06:27:03 Gentoo to offer thirty-two-bit bytes, for SPEEDXXXX 06:27:07 It's a machine wordXXXXXXX 06:27:57 Eh, Crays were pretty much for the few use cases where speed matters above all else. 06:27:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:28:06 Bit of a wonder they actually stuck C and UNIX on there, though. 06:28:23 Fairly antithetical to the computing model. 06:28:39 The people who run their code on ones just write FORTRAN anyway. :p 06:28:56 fizzie: No reason any more. 06:29:06 My cell phone does more FLOPS. 06:29:08 I love it when xkcd is google-based 06:29:17 pikhq: They still makes Crays, but less perverse ones 06:29:18 . 06:29:29 coppro: CHARTS AND GRAPHS THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE FUNNY 06:29:42 elliott: Okay, refering to the classic ones. 06:29:47 elliott: yes 06:30:38 -!- macrohauler has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:31:37 two-oh-seven-three -- Oceans do not rise one foot 06:31:38 Deep. 06:31:49 two-oh-sixty-nine -- Public masturbation legalized 06:31:50 Clearly. 06:32:01 oerjan: robots? <-- wat 06:32:01 As a natural consequence of EVERYONE BEING GAY. 06:32:05 oerjan: wat? 06:32:47 elliott: I have to vouch for 2069 06:32:47 We had this topic earlier too, but now I'm again disappointed that our neighbour CSC "Center for Scientific Computation" got a really boring paint job for their Cray XT5; compare something like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/JaguarXT5.jpg and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Oak_Ridge_-_Kraken_%28Cray_XT5%29.JPG with http://www.csc.fi/english/research/Computing_services/computing/servers/louhi/2007-07-13.9357909976/image 06:33:18 That Jaguar thing is really bitching, I must say. Seen it before. 06:33:25 coppro: Have you, er, been to the future? 06:33:36 elliott: nope. That year can't possibly be bad though 06:33:40 fizzie: You should go and VIGILANTE REPAINT IT. 06:33:54 coppro: its funny because it has six and nine in itXXXXXXXXXXxxoneXXXXXoneONExxxXXone 06:33:56 They might have a lock(tm) on the door. 06:34:05 fizzie: You just need a: key(tm). 06:34:11 elliott: inorite 06:34:46 (protip: ensure you have a sexual companion going into that year) 06:34:55 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:34:55 IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE 06:34:59 IT HAS THE NUMBERS 06:35:01 SIX AND NINE IN IT 06:35:03 AND THEY ARE: 06:35:06 consecutive 06:36:15 fizzie: Seriously, if you're going to have a Cray you *might as well* get a decent appearance on it. 06:36:37 fizzie: After all, that's all the ignorants will see. Good idea to convince them it's actually awesome rather than a bunch of boxes. :P 06:36:58 Put BATMAN on it except it's LASER BATMAN and he's friends with KITTENS and shooting LASER BEAMS at COMPUTING PROBLEMS. 06:37:05 AND IT'LL RUN AS FAST AS GOOGLE 06:37:09 PETABASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES 06:37:11 RAAAAAAAAAAH 06:37:11 pikhq: Also the name of the system is Louhi, as in the person with wings in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Gallen-Kallela_The_defence_of_the_Sampo.png 06:37:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo 06:37:48 fizzie: Is your Cray powered by LIGHTNING. REAL LIGHTNING? 06:38:06 Also, that guy with wings is one weird bro. 06:38:14 It's a "she", actually. 06:38:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louhi 06:38:25 Admittedly not very clear from the painting. 06:38:31 Your mythology: it is: weird. 06:38:53 So, uh, she's the bad guy, right? 06:39:03 " zzo38: A Turing machine is fundamentally incapable of correctly simulating quantum effects" " zzo38: A non-deterministic TM would do" <<< if these both are about "quantum effects", then what do you mean, nondeterminism doesn't have much to do with quantum stuff 06:39:04 Yes. Well, mostly, anyway. 06:39:15 oklopol: Yes it does 06:39:41 oklopol: To the best of our knowledge, our universe is not simulatable with a deterministic construction 06:39:47 (simulable?) 06:39:51 fizzie: Is there, ALL THESE LAYERS, I would NOT UNDERSTAND? 06:39:54 TOO DEEP FOR ME 06:40:00 (at least as far as anyone knows) 06:40:03 coppro: sure it is. 06:40:08 coppro: just pick the right choice at each point. 06:40:14 (except people who have no idea what nondeterminism and quantum stuff are) 06:40:18 just store every coin flip since the big bang 06:40:25 in fact, if those are truly random, seed a prng with them :) 06:40:27 go from there 06:40:31 I said "to the best of our knowledge" 06:40:42 coppro: did I not just contradict that? 06:40:48 there is obviously such a list of coin flips 06:41:10 elliott: that is not deterministic 06:41:16 why not, it's a fixed list 06:41:22 you can run it on a deterministic machine 06:41:28 oerjan: wat? <-- yes, wat. 06:43:04 coppro: ? 06:43:20 coppro: i have a hunch you have no idea what you're talking about 06:43:40 i would like an explanation of how a fixed initial list of data plus a deterministic algorithm is somehow nondeterministic 06:43:42 that is quite a result 06:45:00 coppro: well? 06:45:59 coppro: in any case all i'm saying the mathematical concepts of nondeterminic computation and quantum computation don't have any sort of clear connections. 06:46:03 oklopol: let's start a betting pool of when we'll get an answer 06:46:30 i'm sure whatever those words mean for you have lots of connections, but then again i'm sure quantum computation means about as much to you as to me: 0 06:46:33 elliott: I could just be failing to understand you 06:46:52 coppro: The entire nondeterministic part of our universe comes down to coinflips. Yes? 06:46:56 Agreed? 06:47:00 elliott: No 06:47:03 they do a lot of that stuff at the uni but no courses :( 06:47:09 From the POV of a Turing machine simulatng. 06:47:11 simulating. 06:47:38 oklopol: A quantum computer can be simulated perfectly by a nondeterministic one, although possibly not efficiently 06:47:53 elliott: yes (assuming we don't care about efficiency) 06:48:03 coppro: and a nondeterministic one can be simulated perfectly by a deterministic one 06:48:10 and that's a transitive relation 06:48:12 coppro: Now consider up to the moment this message was sent. 06:48:18 oklopol: no 06:48:20 coppro: Every time such a coinflip would have to be made, it results in either zero or one. 06:48:30 no? then we're not talking about turing machines i suppose 06:48:32 coppro: Therefore, there is a FINITE LIST of zeroes and ones that constitute the COINFLIP RESULTS of this universe. 06:48:34 coppro: Agreed? 06:48:47 oklopol: A nondeterministic TM might not produce the same result each time its run 06:48:48 or you have a very weird definition of simulating 06:48:55 elliott: Presuming finite universe. 06:48:57 >:D 06:48:58 coppro: These, plus a deterministic computer that looks at the next element of a list whenever it needs to flip a coin, would simulate the universe up to the present. 06:49:00 coppro: how delightfully relevant 06:49:04 thank you for that 06:49:20 coppro: Therefore a deterministic computer can simulate the universe. 06:49:44 elliott: It can reconstruct the events but not predict them given a state 06:49:55 coppro: That is way too vague to respond to. 06:49:59 can i ignore a whole channel? 06:50:04 oklopol: /part 06:50:06 :D 06:50:22 i should go to work 06:51:11 You can also set user mode +D (this ignores *all* channels) 06:51:24 i would never ignore #matrixofsolidity 06:51:33 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:51:43 it's a lovely channel 06:51:52 Then you could just use PART or else see if there is a macro in your client that can filter out by channels 06:52:00 zzo38: please join #matrixofsolidity 06:52:03 part is out of the question 06:52:24 i wanna be close to you guys 06:52:24 Then see if there is such a macro that can be set in your client. 06:52:30 but i'd also like you to shut up! 06:52:57 http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/dp/0849946158/ref=zg_bs_books_2 ;; this is on the amazon.com bestseller list 06:52:59 well theoretically i could just write one 06:53:12 "Told by the father, but often in Colton's own words, the disarmingly simple message is heaven is a real place, Jesus really loves children, and be ready, there is a coming last battle." 06:54:35 haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS 06:54:49 "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" 06:55:10 "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards" 06:55:12 I know that my client can be made macro to filter many things with /F command, but I am sure other IRC client must have filters too, although the command is probably not /F it might be a menu instead. 06:55:23 yeah, god is quite the asshole. 06:55:54 `addquote haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards" 06:55:56 368) haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards" 06:56:48 Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards. 06:56:51 * pikhq wonders at the whole "The Lord is my shepard" bit. 06:57:04 So, the Lord converteth me to lamb cutlets? 06:57:14 Yes. 06:57:44 So, I suppose we little ones shall have to learn the art of karate, and then we'll make the bugger's eyes water. 06:58:29 [["I strongly believe the President needs to be removed from office by the U.S. Military and tried under the military court system."img "Am I advocating a military coup? No I am not." Actually, it would appear that you are, Johnny. Somebody call the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services FBI. P-Foster (talk) 01:45, 16 April 2011 (UTC) 06:58:29 F..U..C..K..!!!! What is he on? --Scream!! (talk) 01:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC) 06:58:29 Holy fuck. That's a whole new level of insane cognitive dissonance. --The Emperor 02:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)]] 06:58:32 Oh come on RationalWiki. 06:58:39 You'd rejoice if they did that to Bush. 06:58:40 * oklopol considers " Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards." rather quoteworthy as well 06:58:47 me too 06:58:49 just didn't wanna seem 06:58:50