←2011-04-20 2011-04-21 2011-04-22→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:06:18 <zzo38> gopher://csv.example.org:7070/1q_3844/18816_019915
00:08:26 * Phantom_Hoover ponders shooting up on flu vaccine for the comedic effect.
00:08:39 <elliott> DO IT
00:08:56 <zzo38> elliott: Are you sure?
00:09:08 <elliott> yes
00:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I think that is Not A Good Idea.
00:10:11 <elliott> Indeed.
00:10:12 <elliott> It is the BEST idea.
00:10:40 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: If is not good idea, then don't do (unless you happen to like bad ideas, that is).
00:18:32 <zzo38> Choose one -- choose one, or choose another one. If you don't, you may choose to choose another choose.
00:23:43 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:33:07 <zzo38> I invented a Magic: the Gathering card: All non-legendary permanents have Cumulative Upkeep-double your life total. At the beginning of each player's first main phase, if that player's life total exceeds one million, that player loses the game.
00:34:05 <zzo38> (This text is on a Legendary card, which means you cannot sacrifice it to itself)
00:37:34 <Yahweasel> https://github.com/mozilla/narcissus/pull/31 <-- has everyone observed my greatest piece of code ever written?
00:37:52 <elliott> What happens if you feed that thing space?
00:38:04 <Yahweasel> It gives a correct result (false)
00:38:09 <Yahweasel> Because x.x is undefined :)
00:38:11 <Phantom_Hoover> glogbot, ow my brain
00:38:13 <elliott> Hm, right.
00:38:14 <Yahweasel> (And x. is a syntax error)
00:38:15 <elliott> What's with the first param though?
00:38:23 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> glogbot, ow my brain
00:38:24 <elliott> glogbot
00:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit Yahweasel don't screw up my tab complete like that.
00:38:34 <Yahweasel> elliott: ... the first param is the character being checked ...
00:38:40 <Yahweasel> Oh, the param named "first" X-D
00:38:44 <elliott> Derp derp
00:38:49 <Yahweasel> Some characters are allowed as the first character, others aren't.
00:38:59 <Yahweasel> first says "oh by the way this is the first character so test it in that position"
00:39:06 * elliott ponders embarrassing Gregor by posting "I think it needs more cowbell." as a comment on that pull request.
00:39:12 * pikhq is certain that tup is the best thing evar
00:39:29 <zzo38> Yes I can see how it works.
00:39:42 <zzo38> Although it is strange and I do not know why you want this code.
00:40:03 <pikhq> elliott: So's everything else.
00:40:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, EXCEPT WINDOWS
00:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (Note: lies.)
00:40:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I CAN MAKE IT
00:40:33 <Phantom_Hoover> (Windows is the most subtle and effective part of the UMIC.)
00:41:01 <Yahweasel> zzo38: JavaScript allows any character in the Unicode letter classes to be an identifier character. That's thousands of characters, and there is no simple test for which is which (conventionally people just have a giant list)
00:41:30 <zzo38> That is a problem of Unicode, I think.
00:41:31 <elliott> zzo38: Narcissus is a JavaScript interpreter in JavaScript.
00:41:51 <elliott> Yahweasel: :trying to justify any non-trivial bit of code to zzo38 as not being a problem of the perfectly good things you're using:
00:41:53 <zzo38> elliott: Then that program is cheating
00:41:57 <elliott> zzo38: What.
00:42:06 <elliott> Yahweasel: (OK, I do this too :P)
00:42:38 <Yahweasel> It's not cheating, it's metacircular :P
00:42:47 <zzo38> O, is that different?
00:42:53 -!- Yahweasel has changed nick to Gregor.
00:43:02 <elliott> WELL, DO YA?
00:43:10 * pikhq is increasingly of the opinion that hand-writing a ./configure and a Tupfile is significantly better than using Autocruft.
00:43:25 <elliott> It's awesome to watch pikhq slowly turning into me :D
00:43:28 <Gregor> Metacircular = using host interpreter features to enable the guest interpreter, short of actually polluting one with the other.
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00:43:30 <elliott> JUST AS IT HAPPENED WITH PH
00:43:57 <Gregor> And pooppy.
00:44:08 <pikhq> elliott: You'll note that I have been wanting something better than Autocruft for years.
00:44:18 <Gregor> ♥ autotools
00:44:24 <pikhq> It's just that most things made it even more painful.
00:44:33 <elliott> pikhq: "The change would be very subtle... It might take ten years or so..."
00:45:43 <pikhq> Perhaps the only "problem" with Tup is that it can't really do the equivalent of "make install" or something. Due to it only focusing on building shit.
00:46:08 <pikhq> Though that's easy enough to fix. ./install
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00:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I am upset that noöne has asked me why Windows is a vital part of the UMIC, but I suppose I'm just nicking it from someone else.
00:46:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because it's so bad it drives people to it.
00:47:09 <zzo38> What is UMIC?
00:47:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it's because it was obvious.
00:47:32 <pikhq> zzo38: Unix Military-Industrial Complex
00:47:42 <zzo38> What does that mean?
00:48:03 <pikhq> Snark.
00:50:05 <Gregor> OH BY THE WAY GUYS: Not only does JavaScript support Unicode identifiers and whitespace, it supports Unicode numbers.
00:50:31 <zzo38> Why does it need to support any of these things?
00:51:36 <Gregor> Unicode identifiers for foreign-written code, Unicode whitespace for no half-decent reason whatsoever, and Unicode numbers is the worst idea ever conceived of.
00:53:34 <pikhq> Well, I can understand full-width space.
00:53:54 <pikhq> CJK looks all sorts of weird with half-width spaces.
00:54:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Then they should support full-pitch punctuation as well, isn't it?
00:55:28 <Gregor> The Ogham space mark is the most vital piece of whitespace.
00:55:32 <zzo38> A better code would be one where no lookup tables are needed for this purpose since the information about letters, punctuation, direction, converting uppercase/lowercase, numbers, etc, would be encoded in bits that are part of the code-point.
00:55:44 <variable> Gregor: so who won libc.so ?
00:55:51 <Gregor> zzo38: Enjoy your infinite foresight.
00:55:54 <zzo38> This is the problem with unicode, that is requires large lookup tables.
00:56:04 <Gregor> variable: Still not allocated yet >_<
00:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, some guy.
00:56:25 <elliott> Ogham/og/ha/m/o/gh/am/ogha/m
00:56:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, from now on prices in this channel are all to be given in libc.sos.
00:56:46 <Phantom_Hoover> 1 libc.so = ...I forget, it's around $1000.
00:56:52 <Gregor> $1,350
00:56:54 <elliott> But we'd have to talk in nanolibc.sos for everything that anyone but Gregor can actually afford.
00:56:59 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: no kidding. You sure it is not a gal?
00:56:59 <elliott> :D
00:57:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Nah, just microlibc.sos.
00:57:13 <pikhq> zzo38: It'd be fairly hard to design an encoding that was both compact *and* encoded that useful information...
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00:57:31 <elliott> variable: "Guys" is fairly gender-neutral as these things go.
00:57:40 <pikhq> zzo38: Though it would have the neat property that useful predicates on characters would be a trivial matter of looking at a bit.
00:57:45 <Gregor> "Some guy with a vagina"
00:57:48 <elliott> X-D
00:58:05 <pikhq> Gregor: The worst part is, that does not actually parse as "off".
00:58:08 <elliott> "I was fucking some guy last night" "You're GAY?" "No, are you sexist?"
00:58:25 <elliott> METASEXISM: You assumed the first speaker was MALE
00:58:39 <Gregor> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH
00:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So Minecraft costs almost precisely a millilibc.so.
00:59:39 <Gregor> Apparently Minecraft costs $1.
00:59:40 <Gregor> Who knew.
00:59:44 <pikhq> Though I think that "Some guy with a vagina" would plausibly get interpreted as someone trans...
01:00:03 <elliott> Some vagina with a guy.
01:00:04 <elliott> Gregor: wat
01:00:09 <elliott> Oh :P
01:00:41 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Lookin' for centilibc thar genius?
01:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> YES ALL RIGHT
01:01:00 <Gregor> <-- uses imperial digits
01:01:10 <Gregor> THAT REMINDS ME
01:01:34 <pikhq> Gregor: USE EMPIRICAL DIGITS INSTEAD
01:01:37 <Gregor> Apparently German eggs don't come in dozens. They come in double baker's third dozens.
01:01:43 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> DON'T MOCK ME WITH YOUR ABILITY TO DIVIDE BY TEN
01:01:45 <elliott> Gregor: X-D
01:01:46 <variable> elliott: I know. I was semi joking
01:01:47 <HackEgo> 372) <Phantom_Hoover> DON'T MOCK ME WITH YOUR ABILITY TO DIVIDE BY TEN
01:02:18 <pikhq> Gregor: ... They split an egg in 2/3rds?
01:02:49 <Gregor> pikhq: No, they come in boxes of a double baker's third dozen!
01:03:08 <pikhq> So, 2*(3/13)
01:03:14 <pikhq> Again: they split an egg in 2/3rds?
01:03:21 <Gregor> Your application of "baker's" leaves much to be desired.
01:03:28 <pikhq> A baker's dozen is 13.
01:03:29 <Gregor> Also "third"
01:03:54 <Gregor> A baker's dozen is 13, and half a baker's dozen is 6.5, but what's a baker's half dozen?
01:04:07 <pikhq> Your application of grammar makes Grammar Hitler want to kill some Grammar Jews.
01:04:24 <elliott> I'm ordinary Hitler and I just want to kill some ordinary Jews.
01:04:36 <pikhq> It shall be the Final Grammatical Solution.
01:04:46 <pikhq> elliott: You would!
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01:05:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Hitler! You and your wacky antics!
01:05:21 <Gregor> I don't know how else to put it.
01:05:28 <Gregor> They come in a double baker's third dozen.
01:05:42 <Gregor> I don't really understand egg unit conversions so I have to present it in terms of dozens.
01:05:51 <pikhq> Gregor: Give a number.
01:06:08 <Gregor> pikhq: It's double a baker's third dozen!
01:06:16 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Hitler! You and your wacky antics!
01:06:18 <HackEgo> 373) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Hitler! You and your wacky antics!
01:06:31 <elliott> Gregor: OK, so.
01:06:36 <elliott> A dozen is twelve.
01:06:36 * pikhq shall just assume they have 2/3rd eggs in Germany.
01:06:38 <elliott> A half dozen is six.
01:06:42 <elliott> So a baker's half dozen is seven.
01:06:48 <elliott> So they come in fourteens.
01:06:51 <elliott> Erm.
01:06:52 <elliott> No.
01:06:55 <elliott> So a baker's third dozen is...
01:06:59 <elliott> A third dozen is twelve divided by three.
01:07:04 <elliott> Which is four.
01:07:06 <elliott> So they come in eights.
01:07:09 <elliott> Gregor: Do they come in eights?
01:07:11 <elliott> No.
01:07:13 <elliott> Wait.
01:07:18 <pikhq> Gregor: A baker's third dozen would be 5.
01:07:18 <elliott> Gregor: Ten.
01:07:20 <elliott> They come in ten.
01:07:22 <pikhq> Erm, elliott.
01:07:25 <elliott> Right.
01:07:28 <elliott> So they come in twice that, i.e. ten.
01:07:29 <Gregor> I think that's what he called it, yeah.
01:07:45 <pikhq> Why the pfargtle would they come in 10?
01:07:49 <Gregor> I mean I know what ten pencils is or something, but not what ten ... eggs is. I just don't get egg unit conversion.
01:08:11 <pikhq> ... Why do they come
01:08:17 <pikhq> in dozens here, anyways?
01:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, 12 is a much nicer number than 10.
01:08:33 <pikhq> Gregor: "Egg" is the unit.
01:09:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It'd be nicer still if we used base 12.
01:09:10 <elliott> Gregor is trolling pikhq so successfully :P
01:09:10 <Gregor> pikhq: Because that's how many eggs a non-union hen lays. The German Hen Union went on strike to reduce their egg production.
01:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, it would.
01:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Alas, we don't have six fingers on each hand.
01:09:58 <pikhq> Unless, of course, you killed my father.
01:10:03 <pikhq> In which case, prepare to die.
01:10:05 <elliott> Base eleven could work, if we kept our hands in our pockets. IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE OF PENIS
01:10:33 <elliott> "Nine, ten, ... aww, damn, time to open the porn bookmarks."
01:12:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, there are cultures with base 12 numbering.
01:12:15 <pikhq> Just not many.
01:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, including whatever Euro-Arabic-whatever milieu is generally called Western culture.
01:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, there's a reason eleven and twelve are special cases, and dozen exists as a word.
01:13:47 <elliott> And time is base twelve too.
01:13:54 <pikhq> Eleven and twelve are not remnants of a base 12 numeral system.
01:13:56 <elliott> Or base twenty-four with decimals or similarly-awkward constructions.
01:14:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Remember that imperial units are base twelve.
01:14:24 <elliott> Apart from actual honest-to-god pure numbers, we used to be pretty damn base-twelve.
01:14:25 <pikhq> And only in Germanic languages...
01:14:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Then why are the word "eleven" and "twelve", then?
01:14:50 <pikhq> elliott: We used base-12 units with base-10 numbers.
01:15:12 <elliott> pikhq: Sure, but we tended to always use the closest unit, unlike metric, where we tend to stick to three decimal places.
01:15:14 <elliott> You know what I mean.
01:15:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Cognate with something like "one ten" and "two ten", and evolved into special cases.
01:15:41 <pikhq> And "dozen" is cognate with "duodecim", coming by way of French...
01:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Remember that imperial units are base twelve.
01:15:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Hahahaha no.
01:15:58 <pikhq> Sorry, s/duodecim/DVODECIM/
01:16:03 <elliott> OK they're base twelve except on Sundays.
01:16:07 <elliott> And full moons.
01:16:12 <pikhq> And, yeah, only certain of the imperial units are base twelve.
01:16:16 <pikhq> Some of them are base-WTF.
01:16:25 <TeruFSX> yards
01:16:26 <TeruFSX> gallons
01:16:27 <pikhq> Most of them, really.
01:16:31 <TeruFSX> base 3
01:17:22 <pikhq> Uh, the units of volume are powers of *two*...
01:18:03 <pikhq> Modulo confusing instances, of course.
01:18:13 <pikhq> (3 Tbsp to the jigger...)
01:18:43 <elliott> SI prefixes: THE FORCE OF BORING IN THE WORLD???
01:19:29 <pikhq> Heck, the whole imperial system would actually make some *sense* if it were base 12. :P
01:26:22 <zzo38> Assume you are playing Magic: the Gathering with many players, all for themself (no teams). The card is "Whenever a player loses the game, choose one -- You gain 20 life; or target player loses 20 life." I think this might make everyone wants to beat you now, instead of each other, isn't it?
01:27:54 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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01:29:57 <zzo38> O no, how am I going to play D&D without a stapler???
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01:34:13 <elliott> ON O
02:20:40 <elliott> pikhq: Should I just modify sabotage to get the initial Kitten, or is that LOSER TALK?
02:20:41 <elliott> Answer:
02:20:42 <elliott> LOSER TALK
02:20:48 <elliott> (It has bootstrap scripts.)
02:22:56 <pikhq> LOSER TALK
02:27:23 <Gregor> <Gregor> v8> function ᚏᚇᚈᚁᚍ() {     return "ᚁᚌᚌ ᚔᚈᚅ ᚃᚏᚏᚌ ᚋᚉᚄᚓ ᚐᚒᚏᚇᚒᚁᚍ ᚉᚎ ᚏᚇᚈᚁᚍ!"; }; ; var ᚏᚆᚉᚅᚄ = ᚏᚇᚈᚁᚍ(); ᚏᚆᚉᚅᚄ;
02:27:24 <Gregor> <v8bot> Gregor: "ᚁᚌᚌ ᚔᚈᚅ ᚃᚏᚏᚌ ᚋᚉᚄᚓ ᚐᚒᚏᚇᚒᚁᚍ ᚉᚎ ᚏᚇᚈᚁᚍ!"
02:27:28 <elliott> Gregor: The best.
02:27:32 <Gregor> JavaScript, friends and countrymen.
02:27:47 <elliott> Gregor: omg, I'm gonna pioneer a js obfuscator using that
02:28:05 <elliott> "Render your code completely unreadable by anyone but Ogham natives"
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02:32:40 <Gregor> I just still can't get over the fact that Ogham space mark is whitespace :P
02:32:43 <Gregor> It's NOT WHITE
02:32:51 <elliott> Neither is YOUR MOM
02:32:57 <elliott> But we don't discriminate against HER in our languages.
02:33:00 <elliott> That would be RACIST.
02:33:59 <Ilari> Oh, APNIC IPv4 remaining (including reserved block) is 0.99 now (haven't been looking at it for a while).
02:34:17 <elliott> Ilari: How long until it's all over and we can stop caring X-D
02:34:44 <Ilari> Well, APNIC doesn't currently have enough members to allocate it all.
02:35:32 <Ilari> IIRC, If every member got their block, it would take APNIC down to something like 0.7 or so.
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02:42:51 * pikhq vomits at libtool
02:46:41 <Ilari> Oh yeah...
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02:49:27 <Gregor> I libtool by convincing Automake that it's building a program and its LDFLAGS include -shared -Wl,-soname,whatever :P
02:51:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Ah, the joys of relative sanity.
02:51:42 <pikhq> Unfortunately, you're still using Autocruft. :P
02:52:28 <elliott> Autopoop
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03:09:22 <elliott> olsner: btw, i'm working on the compiler now
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03:48:00 <oklopol> because you are a famous bisexual
03:48:23 <oklopol> i wonder if i have work today
03:53:50 <elliott> no
03:53:51 <elliott> you don't
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03:56:33 <oklopol> elliott: why not?
03:56:41 <elliott> because dance
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03:57:26 <oklopol> it might be one of the easter days, given that there are no lectures, but then again my mom told me that she's a famous bisexual and that she does have work normally
03:58:05 <oklopol> why the fuck isn't this on the uni website
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04:00:29 <elliott> i approve of thsi famous bisexual meme
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04:02:28 <oklopol> i get all my memmes on wikkipedia
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04:04:05 <elliott> oklopol: mikkipaedi
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04:05:46 <oklopol> aiewjgrireogaogirejgkfldsa
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04:09:23 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/jFlXZ.png ;; I'm not surprised this program exits, seeing as it's complete syntactical nonsense.
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04:24:57 <oklopol> hi zzo38!
04:25:15 <zzo38> Hello
04:25:35 <oklopol> :D
04:26:45 <oklopol> elliott: the marketing department was like we totally don't need those dorky coder geeks to write this proggy for the ad lol we're smart too
04:27:06 <oklopol> and management was like wow that's a smart
04:27:20 <zzo38> What is your opinion about cooperative chess variants and such?
04:27:43 <oklopol> have very little opinions on anything chess related
04:27:57 <zzo38> oklopol: Have you ever played chess or any variants? Or invented any?
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04:29:40 <oklopol> well everyone's played chess
04:29:45 <oklopol> i just didn't like it
04:30:16 <zzo38> Do you prefer shogi?
04:30:26 <zzo38> Or do you prefer backgammon?
04:30:27 <zzo38> Or poker?
04:31:24 <elliott> or death
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04:34:41 <oklopol> zzo38: i prefer games that make me think
04:34:48 <oklopol> so none of the above
04:35:20 <oklopol> those make me do bredth-first search unsuccessfully
04:35:39 <elliott> oklopol: remember your infinite-dimension four in a row?
04:35:47 <oklopol> well backgammon i don't really know, and shogi i just assume is just like chess
04:35:51 <oklopol> elliott: yes
04:35:52 <elliott> that was a good game. even if it was unfortunately limited to only the equivalent of the computable reals in coordinates
04:35:55 <oklopol> inf-anf-oh
04:36:07 <elliott> a sad limitation of our crappy third-rate universe
04:36:19 <elliott> oklopol: didn't you have a bot
04:36:20 <elliott> i recall a bot
04:36:22 <elliott> i want the bot
04:36:42 <oklopol> the bot only allowed eventually periodic sequences of coordinates, i should certainly make a better language for it
04:37:11 <zzo38> oklopol: Shogi is similar to chess. There are a few differences. Do you ever play Go?
04:37:14 <elliott> oklopol: you literally just need (N -> N) in any total FP language :P
04:37:18 <oklopol> go seems okay
04:37:34 <oklopol> but i haven't played enough go to know for sure
04:37:41 <oklopol> it might suck ass too once you get the hang of it
04:38:07 <oklopol> elliott: sure
04:39:02 <elliott> oklopol: i wonder if the analogue of the game with all computable functions is somehow non-trivial to AI
04:39:03 <elliott> well
04:39:08 <elliott> i guess it's hard to define "picking a computable function"
04:39:11 <oklopol> but maybe the rules should be changed in some way, one piece per turn and four in a row seems kinda meh when you have soooo many of them dimensions
04:39:20 <elliott> infinity in a ro
04:39:20 <elliott> w
04:39:24 <oklopol> :D
04:39:28 <oklopol> i love it!
04:39:35 <elliott> and you can place infinity per turn, but somehow it's restricted so you can't put them all in a row
04:39:41 <elliott> basically everything is infinite.
04:39:41 <oklopol> also you always put down an infinite amount of pieces
04:39:44 <oklopol> yeah
04:39:45 <elliott> yes
04:39:59 <elliott> oklopol: also, maybe instead of integer coordinates, they should be reals themselves
04:40:05 <elliott> not for any reason, just, you know
04:40:06 <elliott> more infinite
04:40:06 <oklopol> :DSA
04:40:42 <zzo38> A problem with the game of Go is that it has no well-defined end condition.
04:40:56 <oklopol> maybe games are also played infinitely long
04:40:56 <elliott> that's more an awesome thing than a problem :)
04:41:00 <elliott> oklopol: yeah
04:41:06 <elliott> oklopol: and all games started at the beginning of time
04:41:11 <elliott> you get a random one from all possible games, and start from there
04:41:21 <elliott> and it's always had infinite moves done
04:41:23 <oklopol> zzo38: i don't think that's very relevant
04:41:36 <oklopol> well it's certainly not relevant in the current discussion, but i mean even for go
04:43:42 <oklopol> elliott: i meant more like, for each ordinal, you define a partially filled board by taking the union of all the last ones and then applying the player functions in succession, then play until the first uncountable ordinal
04:43:47 <zzo38> A variant of Go has well-defined end condition, capturing and placing stones is the same as Go, but it ends when one player has five in a row. So, it is cross between Go and Go-moku.
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04:43:51 <elliott> oklopol: fuck that's hot :|
04:43:53 <elliott> are you a magican
04:43:53 <dbc2> Hi!
04:43:55 <elliott> magician
04:43:57 <elliott> dbc2: hello
04:44:10 <elliott> dbc2: you're a long-awaited but inevitably inferior sequel to the original dbc, right?
04:44:13 <oklopol> elliott: that's a pretty standard set theoretic trick, which i may be fucking up... :P
04:44:25 <elliott> oklopol: i know, but it's never been applied to infinite-dimensional four in a row before.
04:44:31 <oklopol> probably not :D
04:44:37 <elliott> erm i don't actually mean four in a row
04:44:39 <elliott> i mean tic tac toe
04:44:47 <elliott> whoa
04:44:51 <dbc2> I'm trying to figure out why a combination of setjmp and alarm doesn't work. Anyone want to have a look at it?
04:44:54 <elliott> imagine inf-d four in a row
04:44:58 <elliott> things fall infinitely far down
04:45:00 <elliott> :D
04:45:06 <elliott> dbc2: oh dear, that sounds scary
04:45:17 <dbc2> http://pastebin.com/B5tpPxD8
04:45:37 <dbc2> It seemed like the best way to limit the time a computer thinks for, in a two-player game.
04:45:58 * oklopol now wants to do math on inf-anf-oh
04:46:19 <elliott> dbc2: linux, i assume
04:46:22 <dbc2> When the alarm goes off, it should jump out of, probably, a deeply nested recursive call, and use the best answer it found yet.
04:46:25 <dbc2> Yeah, linux.
04:46:27 <elliott> i dunno how irix or hp-ux would react :-)
04:46:45 <dbc2> It works fine the first time, but the second time, the alarm doesn't go off.
04:47:06 <elliott> dbc2: Perhaps the signal handler for SIGALRM is defined to be cleared when it goes off or something else similarly stupid?
04:47:17 <zzo38> dbc2: The signal handler has to return for it to work.
04:47:31 <elliott> oh, right
04:47:36 <elliott> you're not allowed to do that in signal handlers full stop
04:47:39 <zzo38> Make instead, use timing inside of the code making the decision.
04:47:57 <elliott> dbc2: if the thinking is divided into neat "steps" in an infinite loop
04:48:00 <zzo38> A signal handler cannot return if it uses longjmp
04:48:02 <elliott> you could condition it on a volatile global boolean
04:48:07 <elliott> and the signal handler can just flip it
04:48:27 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, that way will work better I guess
04:50:56 <dbc2> http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/Longjmp-in-Handler.html
04:51:12 <elliott> hmm
04:51:18 <elliott> i'm fairly sure that's gnu-specific at the very least
04:51:42 <elliott> how odd
04:51:58 * elliott tries to figure out which one of pastebin.com's buttons downloads. sigh.
04:52:06 <elliott> well, ok, it's download
04:52:11 <elliott> but "raw" isn't actually raw...
04:52:45 <zzo38> It is why, I prefer sprunge instead (I learned about sprunge from this channel, actually)
04:52:59 <elliott> hmm
04:53:07 <elliott> dbc2: Are you sure it is OK to setjmp to the same jmp_buf twice?
04:53:12 <elliott> I guess so, since the gnu code does
04:54:20 <zzo38> The problem is that the signal handler cannot return if it uses longjmp. It is required for a signal handler to return.
04:54:22 <elliott> dbc2: hmm... stepping through it in gdb but the longjmp doesn't make me hopeful
04:54:32 <elliott> zzo38: incorrect, at least for glibc: http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/Longjmp-in-Handler.html
04:55:15 <zzo38> I know there is the Linux man page tells you which commands are allowed in a signal handler, look at that for information.
04:55:49 <elliott> <elliott> zzo38: incorrect, at least for glibc: http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/Longjmp-in-Handler.html
04:55:52 <elliott> longjmp is allowed.
04:57:33 <elliott> dbc2: interestingly, if i use alarm(9)
04:57:39 <zzo38> OK, I looked at that.
04:57:43 <elliott> dbc2: then it interrupts much before 9 seconds the first turn
04:58:09 <elliott> wait
04:58:10 <elliott> never mind
05:00:33 <elliott> dbc2: have you tried it with non-alarm signals e.g. sigint?
05:00:39 <fizzie> The problem is that when the signal handler is called, the signal is blocked.
05:00:54 <fizzie> It's automatically unblocked upon exit, but you don't exit.
05:01:03 <elliott> Ahhhh
05:01:11 <elliott> I wonder why http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/Longjmp-in-Handler.html fails to mention this
05:02:45 <zzo38> fizzie: See? I told you.
05:02:48 <fizzie> At least that's my guess, anyway; man 2 signal says it's a bit platform-dependent whether it does the blocking or something else.
05:03:03 <elliott> zzo38: You didn't tell fizzie, and besides, you were mostly wrong.
05:03:15 <elliott> It is OK to use longjmp in the handler if you're aware of that.
05:03:56 <fizzie> You can use sigaction with the SA_NODEFER flag to explicitly have it not block the signal while in the handler.
05:04:09 <zzo38> There are the commands sigsetjmp and siglongjmp which will deal with blocked signals.
05:04:59 <fizzie> There is also that, right; those can restore the signal masks
05:06:02 <dbc2> Awesome. Thank you. (Is there a way to directly unblock a signal?)
05:07:52 <dbc2> (Just curious. Sigsetjump and siglongjmp fixed it.)
05:11:24 <fizzie> sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, ...); needs the signal specified via an awkward sigset_t, though.
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05:12:20 <elliott> Does anyone know of a high-performance boids program?
05:12:36 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/coding/comments/gumj1/tinyflock_a_simple_highperformance_threaded_and/ is making me drool over the idea of a fancy-spatial-data-structured GPGPU-accelerated boids program.
05:12:43 <elliott> OK not actually drooling.
05:14:19 <fizzie> I'm sure someone's done some sort of boids CUDA example somewhere.
05:14:25 <elliott> dbc2: BTW, you'll want to set a global to condition on whether to longjmp; after all, you could finish the computation in half a second and still get a longjmp when the alarm goes.
05:14:32 <elliott> fizzie: But will IT use a kd-tree???? HUH?
05:14:36 <elliott> I have updated the Boids code to get 10000 boids on screen at once at 30 frames ... On the CUDA side, instead of working directly on values in global memory ...
05:14:40 <elliott> OK that's quite promising.
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05:15:04 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1SzjsP34PE okay this is pretty.
05:15:21 <fizzie> elliott: One million boidsies, courtesy of a u-tube search: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g60UrbWxt-8
05:15:31 <elliott> "boidsies" CUTEST PLURAL
05:15:52 <elliott> fizzie: Such boring colours, though.
05:16:41 <fizzie> The related-suggestions video of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cjorOe810o&feature=related is more colarrful.
05:17:02 <elliott> That's nicer. Although the movement is more boringer.
05:17:43 <oklopol> lol O(n^2)
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05:17:52 <elliott> i eat twos for breakfast
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05:19:21 <Sgeo__> Took a melatonin
05:19:24 <Sgeo__> Need sleep now
05:19:29 <elliott> "C++ is an amazingly uniform and general language considering it started from C."
05:19:31 <elliott> --reddit madman
05:19:59 <lament> what does that make Objective C
05:20:06 <Sgeo__> <elliott> It doesn't work that fast, it's a placebo effect <Sgeo> I took it a while ago
05:20:16 <Sgeo__> Of course, I'm horrible at predicting people
05:20:21 <elliott> lament: an ugly hodgepodge of hundreds of features :D
05:20:44 <Sgeo__> Except I think failure to acknowledge my existence should have been foreseeable
05:20:53 <elliott> Sgeo__: keeps me sane
05:21:34 <Sgeo__> Anyways, selep
05:21:35 <Sgeo__> sleep
05:21:42 <elliott> cool, racket for linux is distributed as a forty megabyte shell script
05:21:46 <zzo38> When lookoing such things I also found libunwind, which also allows you to access CPU registers (this is not portable unless you only access the IP and SP register, and only for equal/unequal comparison, I think).
05:21:53 <monqy> elliott are you serious
05:21:59 <elliott> monqy: yes, it's a shar
05:22:01 <elliott> a forty megabyte shar
05:22:06 <elliott> :D
05:22:08 <monqy> eugh
05:22:11 * pikhq can-has Tup'ised bsnes
05:22:17 <elliott> i'm surprised dash's parser doesn't vomit its intestines then segfault
05:22:23 <monqy> one time I had to deal with a 2G shar
05:22:26 <monqy> it wasn't pretty
05:22:48 <monqy> 2G as in 2 gigabytes
05:22:55 <elliott> don't you mean gibioctets :>
05:22:56 <monqy> maybe another half-gigabyte too I forget
05:23:16 <pikhq> Sadly, I'd need to do a *bit* more work to make it have more general choice of backends.
05:23:39 <pikhq> And this is deserving of kconfig.
05:23:42 <pikhq> But hey, it works.
05:24:03 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, looks like external dependency support isn't going to be added.
05:25:48 <pikhq> elliott: Sad, but understandable.
05:26:12 <pikhq> It produces a lot of headaches, especially in Tup's model, for not *that* much benefit.
05:26:32 <pikhq> Unlike redo, where it's pretty damned trivial to add.
05:26:36 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
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05:26:57 <elliott> pikhq: yah, but then you can pretty much do it with make too :)
05:27:01 <elliott> by including a generated makefile
05:27:10 <zzo38> If I make a program for Linux systems recording CD/DVD, can be called "rod", takes the device name as the command-line parameter and then records a ISO file from stdin onto the CD/DVD. (Do you know what "rod" is short for?)
05:27:18 <elliott> zzo38: record optical disk
05:27:20 <elliott> pikhq: YOU SHOULD RETURN TO AGORA
05:27:25 <pikhq> elliott: That functioning correctly is a GNU-ism.
05:27:31 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, of course. It does stand for that.
05:27:32 <elliott> everything is a gnuism in make
05:27:51 <pikhq> True, even the pattern rules are a GNU-ism.
05:28:15 <zzo38> (Some people think codenames "Illimitible Illithid" and "Vancouver Island" are obviously not matching a common theme; but they are wrong.)
05:28:15 <pikhq> The "standard" way of doing "%.c: %.o" is ".c.o:", IIRC.
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05:28:52 <elliott> great timing oerjan
05:28:55 <elliott> i'm yelling at people to return to agora
05:29:12 <oerjan> hello
05:29:16 <elliott> hi
05:32:43 <elliott> oerjan thinks i am weird.
05:33:28 <oerjan> you don't say.
05:34:50 <dbc2> elliott: It won't "finish in half a second", because I'm doing iterative deepening. This is for a minichess program.
05:35:06 <elliott> dbc2: I'm just saying that there's always the possibility your algorithm finishes before the alarm.
05:35:16 <elliott> Simple matter of flicking a variable to make sure that doesn't happen /shrug
05:35:25 <dbc2> Thank you Fizzie and everyone.
05:35:58 <zzo38> dbc2: You make minichess program? And, I want to make tsumeshogi program, maybe I will make tsumeshogi program.
05:36:51 <dbc2> I have a nonterminating loop that does a series of gradually deeper minimax searches with alpha-beta pruning, so it is guaranteed to run forever if the alarm doesn't go off.
05:37:03 <elliott> Aight then
05:37:07 <zzo38> I like to play tsumeshogi. Is there any tsumeshogi for Nintendo DS?
05:37:54 <zzo38> I also have the GameBoy tsumeshogi but the adapter card for making it work on Nintendo DS, is broken, so I cannot do that one. Also the "L" button is broken, too.
05:39:10 <zzo38> Do you know how to fix it?
05:40:44 <elliott> oerjan: btw, were you around for lindrum?
05:41:00 <oerjan> oh i cannot remember
05:41:54 <elliott> well you aren't in the log, at least
05:41:59 <elliott> unless you used another name
05:43:09 <oerjan> i'm relatively sure i didn't
05:44:50 <oerjan> um are you talking about that famous scam which i barely remember? if so no i wasn't there.
05:45:12 <elliott> oerjan: yes
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05:53:07 <zzo38> Why does Windows have stupid exec in C?
06:00:32 <zzo38> What it looks like to me, is that it joins the passed argv together with spaces in between, and then calls another function which separates them out into the argv array again, this time checking for quotation marks to allow spaces in arguments. ???
06:00:56 <variable> o.O
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06:03:29 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjbkAECbDBE
06:03:33 <elliott> I have no idea what compelled Google to make this.
06:03:45 <Vorpal> zzo38, I wasn't aware windows had exec, I thought it had that CreateProcessEx?
06:04:16 <zzo38> Vorpal: It does have exec, and it seems to act in the stupid way I described.
06:04:18 <monqy> everybody chromercise
06:04:43 <elliott> monqy: i think this is what they mean by twenty percent time
06:04:49 <monqy> wow this video
06:05:40 <zzo38> Windows does not have fork, however. It does have exec.
06:05:42 <monqy> the ending is very tasteful
06:05:49 <elliott> monqy: it's better in full hd
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06:12:07 <zzo38> What is minimax searches with alpha-beta pruning?
06:12:35 <elliott> nobody knows
06:12:40 <elliott> not even obama known
06:27:53 <oerjan> * pikhq wonders if other countries do anything similar to the whole Air Force/Marine/Executive One rigamarole...
06:28:42 <oerjan> as just seen in wikipedia's Did You Know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_One
06:29:04 <elliott> more like air poop five
06:29:30 * oerjan sees elliott is trying to joke his way out of this _obvious_ synchronicity
06:29:41 <elliott> lol
06:29:49 <elliott> you know what's weird
06:29:53 <elliott> a good portion of this channel
06:29:56 <elliott> will have pooped today
06:29:57 <elliott> and there i went
06:29:59 <elliott> mentioning poop
06:30:01 <elliott> what i am saying is
06:30:07 <elliott> i'm not saying that i AM a mystic
06:30:10 <oerjan> not me although i think i will soon
06:30:14 <elliott> i'm just saying that it's synchronicity and you sh-
06:30:18 <elliott> thanks oerjan i needed to know that
06:30:25 <oerjan> GLAD TO HELP
06:38:29 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjbkAECbDBE <<< this is probably the best thing i've ever seen
06:40:11 <elliott> so
06:40:12 <elliott> one day
06:40:16 <elliott> oerjan was walking along the street
06:40:19 <elliott> and Hugs passed oerjan
06:40:21 <elliott> and Hugs said
06:40:23 <elliott> "whoa. you're old"
06:40:25 <elliott> moral of the story
06:40:28 <elliott> oerjan is oldsgfdhgjhm
06:41:24 * oerjan waves his cane angrily at elliott
06:41:31 <oklopol> zzo38: do you know the minimax algo?
06:41:36 <elliott> you're just saying that because you're oldsgfdhgjhm
06:41:40 <zzo38> oklopol: No, I don't. What is it?
06:41:54 <oerjan> YKGOML!sgfdhgjhm
06:41:59 <oklopol> just the brute force algo for deciding the optimal way to play a game
06:42:13 <oklopol> a zero sum game
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06:42:21 <elliott> let's make -sgfdhgjhm into a meme together
06:42:29 <elliott> oklopol: more like a zero fun game
06:42:44 <zzo38> OK. But are there shortcuts that can be used in some games?
06:42:45 <monqy> okaysgfdhgjhm
06:42:48 <elliott> oerjan: btw could you delete [[Template:Pre]]? thanks
06:42:57 <oklopol> zzo38: alpha-beta pruning is a shortcut.
06:43:13 <zzo38> oklopol: And what is alpha-beta pruning?
06:43:13 <elliott> i'll prune YOUR alpha-beta than anyone else
06:43:17 <elliott> :DDD
06:43:21 <oklopol> zzo38: just wait a sec
06:43:26 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
06:43:46 <elliott> oerjan likes his alpha only moderately well-pruned
06:43:50 <olsner> what is alpha, what is beta, and what is pruning?
06:44:02 <elliott> pruning is when a man and a woman love each other very much
06:45:39 <oklopol> say the algo is choosing the optimal choice for max at node x, and one subbranch of x has already been evaluated completely, giving max the choice of say 5 (max maximizes the value, min minimizes it...). now let's say in the next branch of x, called y, one subbranch z is evaluated, and min has the choice of 3 in there. now because y is a min node, min will either choose 3 or an even smaller value. therefore no other subbranches of y need to be looked a
06:45:59 <elliott> or perhaps say your mom?
06:46:14 <oklopol> if you are able to guess the mathematical framework in which we're working, that should be an okay explanation, but i'm skipping a lot of definition
06:46:15 <oklopol> s
06:47:06 <oklopol> the game is a tree, every second level of it is a max level, every second is a min level, and at the leaves, we have end results (in chess, end result is 1 if max wins, -1 if min wins)
06:47:39 <oklopol> (but usually you will actually also cut the search using a heuristic, and thus have say 0.8 for "max probably wins")
06:47:57 <oerjan> oklopol: you got cut off on that long line
06:48:07 <elliott> oerjan: it was alpha-beta pruned
06:48:07 <oklopol> oh i did? where?
06:48:09 <oerjan> "need to be looked a"
06:48:19 <oklopol> ...therefore no other subbranches of y need to be looked at
06:48:28 <oklopol> is how it ends
06:48:39 <oklopol> :)
06:48:50 <elliott> oerjan: husfhiufdhihiuuihihubfghigfiusijdfhiufhigjhgifdudfguhidfghiufgdsidfgidfgifdgigifidfgiretirikrjhuedkjej
06:48:55 <elliott> i love keyboards
06:48:55 <oerjan> elliott: i'd prune _your_ alphabet but you're already missing a row
06:51:02 <oklopol> i hate how unmathematical my approach is to this stuff
06:51:18 <oerjan> i assume for just values True and False, alpha/beta pruning is equivalent to what you get if you do minmax using shortcutting boolean operators like haskell's and/or?
06:51:23 <oklopol> a retard could not understand that explanation
06:51:33 <oerjan> *i
06:51:55 <oklopol> all mathematics should be done in such a way that the listener need not be able to think at all
06:52:49 <oklopol> *explained
06:52:59 <oerjan> > and [True, True, or [True, error "Boo!"], False, or [False, error "Bah!"]]
06:52:59 <oklopol> oerjan: i think it is
06:53:00 <lambdabot> False
06:53:55 <oklopol> it's not very interesting in the case of 0 and 1
06:54:03 <oerjan> although i guess a more clever approach would also use heuristics to evaluate first the branches that seem likely to give a shortcut...
06:55:29 <oklopol> i'm sure it depends on the game
06:55:44 <oerjan> oh hm right it's more subtle with more values
06:55:50 <oklopol> but alpha-beta pruning usually gives you a rather small speed-up
06:55:51 <oklopol> afaik
06:56:02 <oerjan> but maybe it could still be done with lazy evaluation...
06:56:33 <zzo38> Is it what else I would be asking, what shortcuts are there that depends on game? Such as, specific to chess, shogi, tsumeshogi, etc
06:58:18 <fizzie> Alpha-beta pruning does work better if you order the moves properly; and if you're doing something like iterative deepening, you can use the previous rounds' results to order them.
06:58:56 <oklopol> zzo38: no idea, but to give an example of what alpha-beta pruning means in this, say one move has been deemed okay, and after another possible move, your opponent can eat your queen, giving him a very nice estimated utility; it then makes no sense to look at his other possible moves, because no matter how much better they are than eating your queen, you will not let him eat your queen anyway!
06:59:06 <fizzie> I seem to recall that alpha-beta pruning with optimal move ordering would turn b^d nodes-to-search into b^(d/2).
06:59:16 <oklopol> "means in this"
06:59:18 <oklopol> what
06:59:23 <oerjan> zzo38: i have wikipedia's Sprouts game in my watchlist, one of the links there is to someone who uses quite interesting theory based on nimbers to get shortcuts from symmetry
06:59:45 <oerjan> they've used it to calculate winning player for various starting positions
07:00:17 <zzo38> oklopol: But sometimes it might be the better move that requires queen sacrifice
07:00:46 <oklopol> ...
07:01:39 <oklopol> the algo has already checked that after eating your queen, your opponent goes on to eating your king and your physical body
07:01:53 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, it is like what I mean, like symmetry. In shogi you can have the board horizontal mirror is equivalent.
07:01:57 <zzo38> oklopol: O, it does, OK.
07:02:03 <oklopol> point is after that, alpha-beta pruning cuts off the search for a strategy for the opponent that lets it eat the whole fucking world
07:02:07 <oerjan> zzo38: also i've never read it myself but the book in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winning_Ways_for_your_Mathematical_Plays probably contains many such tricks
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07:02:50 <oklopol> there was some fun book that contained x-completeness proof for tons of different games
07:02:55 <zzo38> In a chess game without pawns, you can rotate/mirror any direction to make equivalence.
07:02:57 <oklopol> but i couldn't access it anywhere
07:03:04 <oklopol> except a partial google books version
07:03:22 <zzo38> But shogi is different and can never make this. In shogi only horizontal mirror symmetry counts.
07:03:45 <oklopol> symmetry doesn't give you much in search unless you use it in some very clever way
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07:05:47 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, I can understand that it is.
07:07:55 <oklopol> oerjan: have you read mathematical playes
07:07:56 <oerjan> zzo38: sadly i don't think chess and the like have the right kind of symmetry. for sprouts if the board splits into two equal halves you can use nimber addition to show that the first player loses (with the standard "first player unable to move loses" winning condition)
07:07:57 <oklopol> *plays
07:08:05 <oerjan> oklopol: i said no just above...
07:08:13 <oklopol> WHOOOOOOOOOOOPS
07:08:18 <oklopol> *-
07:08:46 <oklopol> i read it as "zzo38: i'm linking this thing here ..."
07:09:10 <oerjan> s/board/game configuration/
07:09:28 <oerjan> well it said that too...
07:10:48 <oklopol> oerjan: have you skimmed the book?
07:10:56 <oklopol> is it mathematicsly
07:11:03 <oklopol> i should googelate it
07:12:05 <oerjan> no but it's where they use all of that nimber/surreal number theory and stuff so obviously yes
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07:13:37 <zzo38> But still, are there any shortcuts for searching moves in tsume shogi? There is restriction, such as, first player must give check every turn and has no their own king, second player must delay being checkmated as long as possible. First player loses if they cannot check, and wins if checkmating second player's king.
07:14:24 <oerjan> it got more basic?
07:14:49 <oklopol> it's funny because Phantom_Hoover is a famous bisexual
07:15:19 <oerjan> zzo38: well i cannot say as i don't know tsume shogi, or shogi for that matter
07:15:23 <oklopol> "There is restriction, such as, first player must give check every turn and has no their own king"
07:15:46 <oklopol> i don't know how to... that sentence
07:16:06 <zzo38> This should already make search algorithm shorter because less moves are possible.
07:17:08 <oklopol> "First player loses if they cannot check"
07:17:13 <oklopol> sounds like a slightly broken game
07:17:24 <oerjan> it sounds like it should be possible to do "tshume chess" as well, then...
07:17:32 <oerjan> *tsume
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07:18:05 <zzo38> oklopol: Tsumeshogi is one player game, the board is set up according to the problem and you have to win in a certain number of moves to solve. Similar to chess problem, a bit.
07:18:07 <oklopol> seriously, how can the first player check on every turn?
07:18:10 <oklopol> oh!
07:18:39 <oerjan> it's sort of like restricted chess problems i assume
07:18:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, like that.
07:18:53 <oklopol> aren't pretty much all chess problems solvable by computer in a micromoment?
07:19:19 <oerjan> of course there _are_ chess problems where you have to check every turn because otherwise the other player gets to do something disastrous with their queen or the like
07:19:38 <oklopol> most problems i've seen are like that
07:19:55 <oklopol> maybe because that's an easy way to tell the player what to do and i've been doing very easy ones
07:20:23 <oerjan> well if it's to be a fun problem, it needs to be solvable by humans, which pretty much means it must be extremely easy for a computer
07:20:56 <oklopol> i agree, chess sucks ass
07:21:04 <oklopol> well
07:21:12 <oklopol> i suppose pretty much all combinatorial puzzles are like that
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07:23:21 <oklopol> actually that's a good question, are there fun combinatorial puzzle type of things that computers can't solve but humans can
07:23:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hi
07:25:01 <zzo38> The difficulty in tsumeshogi is to properly program the "futile interposition" rule, although I suppose it could be programmed without such rule, too; or possibly using a restricted form of that rule: that if second player drops pieces which are captured by the same piece checking on the previous turn, which is the same piece still giving check, and this lasts the same way until checkmate, then you rewind to the point where such thing started.
07:25:38 <oklopol> "drops"?
07:25:52 <oklopol> hmm puts somewhere maybe
07:26:27 <oklopol> zzo38: that doesn't sound at all hard to program
07:26:28 <zzo38> oklopol: I mean a piece from off of the board is placed on the board in a vacant position. This is sometimes called "drops". It is a rule in shogi, that chess doesn't have.
07:26:50 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, it is why I made this restricted futile interposition rule, to make it easy to program.
07:27:17 <oklopol> oh sorry i only read parts of your message
07:27:24 <oklopol> what's the actual rules?
07:27:25 <oklopol> asref9kj0oiae
07:27:26 <oklopol> *ruel
07:27:27 <oklopol> *rule
07:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Jesus Star Control 2 AI vs AI matches are so stupid.
07:29:54 <zzo38> oklopol: I am not exactly sure on the actual futile interpositon rule, actually. But, basically, it is in case you interpose the check and it doesn't help by changing situation to something different, then it is not allowed. See this: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_13/futile.png The piece in the corner is "angle mover" moves like the bishop. The one next to it is "dragon king", like a rook or king. If you move, they can interpose.
07:30:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hi
07:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hi.
07:30:13 <zzo38> (This is, moving causes discovered check in this case.)
07:30:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It's literally as if Zap Brannigan pilots the lighter ships when they're up against heavies.
07:32:16 <oklopol> :SD
07:32:31 <oklopol> that zappie is one famous bisexual
07:32:32 <oklopol> ->
07:32:40 <zzo38> Dropping on the diagonal blocks check. Moving down doesn't help (you cannot capture your own pieces). If you move to the right, interposing means if they interpose is futile because you can capture opponent's dragon king, gives check again, interposing that check can be captured and is checkmate (your silver general is next to it, guards it).
07:33:00 <zzo38> See? Rule of futile interposition is very confusing.
07:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Be fair.
07:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> He's also a famed military tactician.
07:33:56 <zzo38> oklopol: Do you see what I mean, now?
07:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, once the giant laser death frigate appears the other team appear to go for his "clog the enemy cannons with wreckage" tactic.
07:37:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is a famous bisexual
07:37:09 <elliott> no wiat
07:37:13 <elliott> famous gay vampire
07:37:15 <elliott> mixed my lists up
07:42:11 <zzo38> Restricted futile interposition rule should be easy to program, not even necessary to try all the moves from there. It can simply check all positions in that line. The only checking pieces that can be interposed in this way is: fragrance chariot, flying chariot, angle mover, dragon king, dragon horse. However, it is also necessary to try promotion if applicable, so this is a slight complication (but not too much).
07:42:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is ignoring my /msgs because he is a nazi.tell your frends
07:44:57 <monqy> hello #esoteric. Phantom_Hoover is ignoring elliotts /msgs because he is a nazi.tell your frends.
07:45:10 <elliott> yay we are yor frends
07:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, dammit I warned you about getting me labelled a Nazi.
07:46:07 <elliott> yes i recall you saying
07:46:10 <elliott> don't tell everyone i'm a nazi
07:46:14 <elliott> because they will judge me
07:46:15 <elliott> because i am a nazi
07:46:48 <oerjan> i do nazi the problem
07:47:01 <elliott> lol that is funay
07:47:25 <oerjan> now if it were also original it'd be something
07:47:43 <zzo38> However, interposition is not always futile, sometimes it is not the entire sequence which is then checkmate because it is possible to make other things half-way through to change stuff.
07:48:11 <zzo38> Such as, king's moves.
07:49:24 <zzo38> Repeatly capturing interposing piece does not change whether or not king can move, though.
07:52:49 <Ilari> Hmm... IPv4 allocation rate on ipv4depletion site is falling pretty rapidly. It was about 2.80 on last Friday. Now it is 2.15.
07:56:41 <Ilari> Hah (reding old comment entries in Huston's IPv4 address report)... "The uncertainty of this September date is +/- 3 months, so that within a 95% confidence level APNIC will exhaust its address pools sometime between June 2011 and December 2011.". That exhaustion happened 14th April.
07:58:56 <Ilari> That real date would be outside of even 99% confidence interval of that prediction.
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10:37:39 <elliott> would that pesky phantom hoover return
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10:51:45 <Vorpal> `addquote <elliott> would that pesky phantom hoover return * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
10:51:48 <HackEgo> 374) <elliott> would that pesky phantom hoover return * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
10:52:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, clearly my WiFi has a sense of humour. Also that quote sucks.
10:52:26 <Phantom_Hoover> `delquote 374
10:52:27 <HackEgo> *poof*
10:52:36 <elliott> It was four minutes late, so yah :P
10:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right
10:54:14 <elliott> "Scalable SQL: How do large-scale sites and applications remain SQL-based?"
10:54:16 <elliott> An exercise in timewasting.
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11:26:33 <Sgeo__> My dad's pattern recognition: Nonexistent
11:26:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover you are clearly pinged out.
11:27:32 <Sgeo__> Then again, I may be affected by ... selective.. what is it called?
11:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Blindness?
11:29:07 <elliott> X-D
11:31:19 <Sgeo__> He's dragging me to this dinner thing with my step-mom and her sisters. I told him I have plans for tomorrow. He insists we won't be back late. He has work tomorrow. But he always insists that, and guess what?
11:32:18 <elliott> Insert lack of comment about Sgeo__'s failure to exercise own independence because I've given up.
11:33:15 <crystal-cola> multiparadigm programming has failed.
11:33:21 <elliott> uh huh
11:33:22 <crystal-cola> Internet chatrooms are virtual meeting places where attitudes are shared, strengthened and validated. In some channels, hackers of hate can sow misinformation about the plight of programmers elsewhere. In our communities, groups and organisations led by young, dynamic innovators promote separatism by encouraging programmers to define themselves solely in terms of their language.
11:33:31 <elliott> thank you for that definition.
11:34:49 * Sgeo__ is not a single-language kind of guy
11:35:00 <Sgeo__> I keep wanting to be for some weird reason
11:35:10 <Sgeo__> But the siren call of new languages..
11:35:36 <crystal-cola> So, let me end with this. This terrorism is completely indiscriminate and has been thrust upon us. It cannot be ignored or contained; we have to confront it with confidence – confront the ideology that drives it by defeating the ideas that warp so many young minds at their root, and confront the issues of identity that sustain it by standing for a much broader and generous vision of programmers in our servers.
11:36:26 <crystal-cola> Now, none of this will be easy. We will need stamina, patience and SICP, and it won’t happen at all if we act alone. This ideology crosses not just our continent but all continents, and we are all in this together. At stake are not just algorithms, it is our way of expressing algorithms. That is why this is a challenge we cannot avoid; it is one we must rise to and overcome. Thank you.
11:44:33 <crystal-cola> elliott: Une société qui s’écroule, une économie qui régresse, des appels à toujours plus de contrôles politiques pour juguler ce déclin, la situation actuelle a un goût de déjà-vu. Bien sûr on pense à la crise 1929. Mais c’est en fait à un livre - et désormais un film - qu’il est fait référence ici. Il s’agit d’Atlas Shrugged (la révolte d'Atlas) de la philosophe russo-américaine Ayn Rand, publié en 1957. Ce
11:44:47 <elliott> crystal-cola: yeah, I can't read French and I don't give a shit about Ayn Rand.
11:52:58 <crystal-cola> Gauss shaves both himself and Bertrand Russell.
11:53:48 <elliott> crystal-cola: are you a markov chain bot?
11:53:58 <crystal-cola> For Gauss, correlation implies causation.
11:54:34 <crystal-cola> Gauss can trisect an angle with a straightedge and compass.
11:54:46 <elliott> gauss facts. wonderful.
11:55:37 <Vorpal> is this like Chuck Norris but with Gauss and math?
11:57:38 <crystal-cola> A Malament–Hogarth (M-H) spacetime, named after David B. Malament and Mark Hogarth, is a relativistic spacetime that possesses the following property: there exists a worldline λ and an event p such that all events along λ are a finite interval in the past of p, but the proper time along λ is infinite
11:57:51 <crystal-cola> The significance of M-H spacetimes is that they allow for the implementation of certain non-Turing computable tasks (hypercomputation). The idea is for an observer at some event in p's past to set a computer (Turing machine) to work on some task and then have the Turing machine travel on λ, computing for all eternity. Since λ lies in p's past, the Turing machine can signal (a solution) to p at any stage of this never-ending task. Meanwhi
11:57:58 <crystal-cola> The set-up can be used to decide the halting problem
11:58:07 <elliott> pretty sure it's a markov bot guys
11:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie? Does this justify the nuclear option?
11:59:28 <quintopia> and where is j-invariant? ANSWER QUESTIONS FOR US J-INVARIANT
11:59:39 <crystal-cola> ?
12:01:57 <crystal-cola> I wonder if you guys are being boring on purpose to make me go away
12:02:49 <elliott> yes. it's a vendetta and a conspiracy.
12:03:07 <elliott> are we /usually/ interesting?
12:03:28 <crystal-cola> idk I was trying to raise some topic for discussion
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12:05:57 <elliott> DAMMIT HOOVER
12:06:04 <elliott> crystal-cola: with... French about Ayn Rand?
12:06:11 <crystal-cola> lol
12:06:21 <crystal-cola> I thought you were really into Ayn Rand
12:06:29 <elliott> yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
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12:16:10 <elliott> that hoover ain't so phantagmotirlca
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13:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:12:41 <HackEgo> 38) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
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13:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:31 <HackEgo> 369) <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:32 <HackEgo> 326) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
13:16:33 <HackEgo> 275) <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
13:16:34 <HackEgo> 196) <fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
13:16:35 <HackEgo> 62) <Madelon> yay fire! * Madelon combusts spontaneously.
13:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:16:56 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
13:16:57 <HackEgo> 129) * augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :|
13:16:57 <HackEgo> 248) "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
13:16:59 <HackEgo> 30) <Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
13:16:59 <HackEgo> 192) <pikhq> Vorpal: YOU ARE AMERICAN
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13:37:09 <oklopol> i have decided to play minecraft today.
13:37:45 <oklopol> i'll just let that sink in for a while.
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14:28:18 <oerjan> <Vorpal> `addquote <elliott> would that pesky phantom hoover return * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
14:28:36 <elliott> yeah
14:28:46 <elliott> true synchronicity when your wifi goes out and then, minutes later, it's back :D
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14:35:55 <oerjan> crystal-cola: i think we may have discussed that spacetime thing before, or perhaps i saw it on reddit
14:36:08 <elliott> but have we ever discussed Ayn Rand in French
14:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, don't indulge him.
14:36:29 <oerjan> in _theory_ i know some french
14:37:03 <crystal-cola> okay I am putting hoover on igonre
14:37:24 <oerjan> ayn rand is the kind of thing i would probably not want to read _even_ if half the internet didn't claim it was crap
14:37:44 <elliott> crystal-cola: that's interesting
14:37:54 <crystal-cola> the reason people say ayn rand is so rubbish is because they are scared of her ideas taking hold
14:37:57 <elliott> lol
14:38:03 <elliott> you're funny
14:38:08 <oklopol> who the fuck is ayn rand
14:38:16 <elliott> a dead moron
14:38:18 <Phantom_Hoover> crystal-cola, no, it's because they're rubbish.
14:38:20 <oklopol> stop talking about famous bisexuals, no one gives a fuck
14:38:26 <elliott> oklopol: [asterisk]JOHN GALT lol lol llol
14:38:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you're on ignore.
14:38:50 <oklopol> first some fucking bipolar bisexual from a tv show and then a dead bisexual from a french time travel comedy
14:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you're probably ignoring me, but I won't return the favour because your weirdness is quite entertaining in a strange way.
14:39:04 * Sgeo__ wants to play Portal 2 Coop
14:39:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ok i _am_ sorry i mentioned ayn rand. not for that spacetime thing, though.
14:39:20 <elliott> technically i brought up ayn rand
14:39:20 <elliott> :D
14:39:22 <oklopol> hi crystal-cola, are you a famous bisexual?
14:39:26 <crystal-cola> no
14:39:34 <elliott> oklopol: bisexuality is misogyny
14:39:34 <oerjan> hm right
14:39:34 <elliott> duh
14:39:38 <elliott> crystal-cola just explained this to us yesterday
14:39:40 <elliott> it's as clear as mud
14:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, really?
14:39:44 <elliott> really, really transparent mud
14:39:49 <elliott> yes.
14:39:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I deeply, deeply need to read this.
14:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Was it here?
14:40:01 <elliott> yes. and you really don't want to.
14:40:07 <elliott> my brain hurt for about five hours.
14:40:26 <oklopol> i never read the argument even though i asked what it was
14:40:32 <Sgeo__> I was there for his ranting about something else
14:40:39 <oklopol> could one of you famous bisexuals paste it?
14:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, Chrome, I clearly typed "co" and then pressed tab to complete to "codu.org/logs", not "youtube.com".
14:41:12 <elliott> tab doesn't work in chrome does it :)
14:41:14 <elliott> to complete
14:41:28 <elliott> you probably tabbed to a bookmark or top site
14:41:32 <elliott> which happened to be youtube
14:41:36 <oklopol> where's my hammer, need to open beer :(
14:41:38 <Sgeo__> Sometimes, when the quick things are there, tab jumps to one of those
14:41:44 <Sgeo__> oklopol, Arkenhammer?
14:41:49 * Phantom_Hoover → stuff
14:42:00 <oklopol> arkenWHATmer?
14:42:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BOO
14:42:18 <Sgeo__> It's a Tool of the Titans
14:42:38 <oklopol> so umm, i would look for crystal-cola's thing in the logs, but the only word i remember from there is misogyny and crystal-cola had his very own spelling for the word
14:42:47 <oklopol> maybe mysogeny?
14:42:49 <elliott> misogeny i think
14:42:51 <elliott> or that
14:42:54 <oklopol> no, two typos
14:42:58 <crystal-cola> misogeny
14:43:06 <oklopol> i recall there were two typos
14:43:09 <Sgeo__> oklopol, link me
14:43:11 <elliott> crystal-cola: you realise it's spelled misogyny
14:43:13 <elliott> or is it like
14:43:15 <elliott> hatred of genes
14:43:18 <crystal-cola> that's a sexist spelling
14:43:22 <elliott> what
14:43:30 <elliott> i can't tell whether you're trolling or just stupid
14:43:37 <crystal-cola> mysogeny
14:43:46 <crystal-cola> wymen
14:43:47 <crystal-cola> etc.
14:44:03 <oklopol> can you elaborate?
14:44:09 <elliott> i think the word the is mysogenic
14:44:14 <elliott> i'm going to spell it tyh
14:44:21 <oerjan> elliott: you might want to mention it to ais523 if you really meant for Template:Pre to be deleted
14:44:30 <elliott> oerjan: thanks for doing it for me
14:44:44 <oklopol> ah it was indeed mysogeny
14:45:04 <crystal-cola> See Miller, Casey, Swift - The Handbook of Non-Sexist Language
14:45:07 <oerjan> mysostgenetikk
14:46:14 <oklopol> "<crystal-cola> oklopol: Nothing is more demeaning to a women than a ``bisexual'' mans distaste and fundamental non-acceptance of her femininity"
14:46:40 <oklopol> i'm not following you
14:47:07 <Sgeo__> 10:30:43 <crystal-cola> see here http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.06/4bisexuality.html
14:47:41 <Sgeo__> I think that that link might run counter to crystal-cola's argument
14:47:43 <oklopol> do you think everyone should be heterosexual or something?
14:47:51 <elliott> no, lesbian
14:47:52 <elliott> even the men
14:48:02 <crystal-cola> lol
14:48:05 <elliott> crystal-cola: well you know, i think the word sexist is sexist
14:48:08 <elliott> i think we should spell it sexiest.
14:48:14 <crystal-cola> elliott: good point
14:48:21 <oklopol> elliott: stop screwing around you famous bisexual, i'm trying to have a serious conversation
14:48:38 <elliott> oklopol: is that even possible
14:48:46 <oklopol> yes. i'm a serious man.
14:48:52 <oklopol> oh crystal-cola is j-invariant
14:49:32 <oerjan> i thought that was crystal clear
14:49:55 <oklopol> i have seen like 6 or crystal-cola's lines
14:50:03 <elliott> whoosh
14:50:05 <Sgeo__> crystal-cola, are you opposed to bisexuals?
14:50:09 <oklopol> took me that long to suspect something was up
14:50:15 <elliott> Sgeo__: they're sexiest
14:50:24 <oklopol> *of
14:50:27 <Sgeo__> Because that link doesn't seem to be opposed
14:50:39 <crystal-cola> it's subjective
14:50:40 <coppro> The word sexist is discriminatory against people who don't fall into traditional gender categorizations
14:50:49 <coppro> We should all adopt 'genderist'
14:50:53 <elliott> coppro: the word sexiest isn't
14:51:01 <crystal-cola> gynder
14:51:10 <oklopol> crystal-cola: so if i enjoy happy time with both men and women, i don't accept the feminity of women?
14:51:10 <coppro> elliott: YES IT IS NOW SHUT UP OKAY
14:51:34 <Sgeo__> I'm still trying to figure out why e linked to something e disagrees with
14:53:10 <oklopol> http://www.theneworder.org/hitler_phenom/hitler_was_right.html
14:53:48 * elliott tries to find a website arguing that rape is awesome
14:53:52 <crystal-cola> hitler is a fictional person
14:53:54 <crystal-cola> he never existed
14:53:55 <elliott> (it's not, it's sexiest)
14:53:57 <elliott> crystal-cola: what
14:54:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
14:54:24 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*quantum@unaffiliated/j-invariant.
14:54:24 -!- oerjan has kicked crystal-cola Obviously trolling.
14:54:28 <oklopol> oerjan: I'M SORRY I WAS TRYING TO BE FUNNY :(((
14:54:36 <elliott> oerjan: prepare to be flooded with "unban me"
14:54:48 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't really believe on most of history either
14:54:51 <oklopol> *in
14:54:55 <elliott> yeah but you do it adorabnly.
14:54:56 <elliott> adorbaly.
14:54:57 <elliott> ...
14:54:59 <elliott> how do words work
14:55:15 <Sgeo__> Fucking words, how do they work/
14:56:16 <oklopol> elliott: i asked my uncle and apparently it's "adorably"
14:56:33 <elliott> aboradly
14:56:37 <oklopol> no
14:56:38 <oklopol> adorably
14:57:05 <oklopol> why won't crystal-cola answer me
14:57:11 <oklopol> gah
14:57:21 <elliott> oklopol: lol
14:57:21 <oklopol> bitches be bitches i guess :((
14:58:01 <oklopol> hey there's a finnish song that is essentially that hitler was right page in finnish
14:58:02 <elliott> Yes, Adolf Hitler did die. But the good news is that He is not dead. He has been reborn—resurrected and transfigured.
14:58:04 <elliott> lol is this a troll site
14:58:16 <oklopol> oh okay maybe not
14:58:58 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA06tz1IIRM
14:59:11 <oklopol> it's the same lyrics
14:59:18 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*quantum@unaffiliated/j-invariant.
14:59:34 <elliott> oerjan: just told em. :p
14:59:42 -!- crystal-cola has joined.
14:59:54 <crystal-cola> im wondering if hoover is gonna stop being a dick?
14:59:58 * copumpkin drinks crystal-cola
15:00:06 <elliott> hoover isn't being a dick.
15:00:13 * copumpkin chokes and dies from crystal-cola's sharp edges slicing up his throat
15:00:18 <elliott> or at least not enough of a dick to get past the minimum skin-thickness of irc
15:00:28 <crystal-cola> elliott: he was being to me
15:00:38 <elliott> i stand by my statements
15:00:47 <crystal-cola> oh now you are being a dick too
15:01:16 <crystal-cola> shouldn't have brought it up, ill just put him back on ignore and leave it
15:01:32 <elliott> i'm not being a dick.
15:01:33 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
15:01:37 <elliott> persecution complex.
15:01:39 <crystal-cola> you said that being a dick to me is not being a dick
15:01:42 <Gregor> This is so much lols.
15:01:42 <elliott> no.
15:01:46 <elliott> i denied anyone was being a dick to you.
15:01:48 <crystal-cola> that's how I interpreted it
15:02:09 <Gregor> I ♥ #esoteric SO HARD :P
15:02:09 <copumpkin> no more dicks, just peace and love :) :) :)
15:02:11 <oklopol> it's not what you said, it's the way you said it
15:02:24 <oklopol> crystal-cola: seriously, please answer
15:02:25 <Gregor> copumpkin: How can we have peace and love with no dicks? :P
15:02:26 <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling''
15:02:34 * copumpkin hugs crystal-cola
15:02:40 <elliott> ````
15:02:43 <HackEgo> No output.
15:02:44 <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims
15:02:55 <oklopol> could you stop not trolling and just answer
15:03:03 <crystal-cola> answer what?
15:03:08 <oklopol> argh
15:03:15 * copumpkin didn't see a question either
15:03:27 <elliott> `addquote <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling'' <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims
15:03:28 <HackEgo> 374) <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling'' <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims
15:03:30 <oklopol> "<crystal-cola> oklopol: Nothing is more demeaning to a women than a ``bisexual'' mans distaste and fundamental non-acceptance of her femininity" <<< can you translate this to a language?
15:03:48 <oklopol> copumpkin: that's because you're a famous cobisexual
15:03:53 <crystal-cola> oklopol: it's (blatantly) bullshit
15:04:03 <copumpkin> oklopol: trisexual!
15:04:07 <oklopol> although bisexuality is just cobisexuality
15:04:21 <oklopol> unlike sursexuality
15:04:37 <copumpkin> cobibeef?
15:04:44 <elliott> nullasexual
15:04:46 <Sgeo__> crystal-cola, what is?
15:04:50 <elliott> null...exual
15:04:52 <crystal-cola> what is what?
15:04:55 <oklopol> crystal-cola: okay, good
15:04:58 <Sgeo__> bullshit?
15:05:07 <crystal-cola> the quote oklopol pasted
15:05:30 <Sgeo__> Oh
15:05:32 <crystal-cola> it's just a bunch of garbage some idiot came up with to try to justify a false viewpoint they were entertaining
15:06:22 <oklopol> crystal-cola: can you translate whoever that was's opinion to a language then?
15:06:32 <oklopol> i'm intrigued by sentences that make no sense to me
15:06:35 <crystal-cola> what do you mean by "a language?"?
15:06:58 <oklopol> crystal-cola: it's a classy way to say "what does this sentence mean i don't get it"
15:07:09 <crystal-cola> I don't think there's any meaning there
15:07:13 <oklopol> :(
15:07:18 <oklopol> okay
15:08:00 <crystal-cola> you can obviously try to invent some yourself - that's the main reason people say stuff that doesn't mean anything
15:09:52 <oklopol> i suppose
15:10:13 <oklopol> meaningless things scare me, communication is so fragile
15:11:08 <crystal-cola> A starting point might be to speak in abstract syntax rather than text
15:11:39 <elliott> oklopol: we09rjwerewrj0eg90esrgje0gj
15:11:45 <oklopol> AARGHH
15:11:53 * oklopol asguohreohgerag
15:12:07 <elliott> oklopol: iogjiodfgodjgdofjgiog
15:12:11 <elliott> oerjan: what was that old suffix
15:12:57 <oerjan> i cannot remember
15:14:12 <oklopol> so i was thinking hey mc day and then no mc and now i have nothign
15:14:18 <oklopol> *nothing
15:14:28 <oklopol> my life is meaningless atm
15:14:31 <elliott> oklopol: you could play
15:14:32 <elliott> mc
15:14:33 <elliott> single player
15:14:49 <oklopol> well fuck that shit. wait. that's actually a great idea!
15:15:02 <oklopol> like i need you famous bisexuals anyway :D
15:15:13 <elliott> i love you too oklopo
15:15:14 <elliott> oklopol:
15:15:16 <elliott> yeah
15:15:16 <elliott> aishu
15:15:35 <crystal-cola> so any good projects on the go?
15:15:50 <oklopol> awesome math projects
15:15:54 <crystal-cola> like what
15:15:58 <elliott> well my five hundred and ten byte forth almost has a compiler...
15:16:02 <crystal-cola> I learned a bit about algebraic topology
15:16:21 <crystal-cola> what does the number of bytes mean?
15:16:27 <oklopol> i'm trying to characterize the CA commuting with a given bipermutive automaton
15:16:37 <elliott> machine code. it's a standard-PC-architecture boot sector.
15:16:39 <elliott> no dependencies.
15:16:48 <elliott> well, i use an assembler. but no dependencies in the result.
15:16:49 <crystal-cola> oh that's cool
15:17:05 <oklopol> we did linear ones with a uni friend and we have a small result that applies to all
15:17:13 <elliott> i say forth, it's barely anything like forth because i don't care how semantically ridiculous i make it
15:17:16 <elliott> as long as it's small
15:17:23 <Gregor> And TC, right? :P
15:17:27 <crystal-cola> I don't know the terminology about automatons
15:17:30 <elliott> Gregor: On a PC? :P
15:17:54 <oklopol> crystal-cola: permutive CA = changing any single value in the neighborhood used changes the output
15:18:03 <elliott> Gregor: Well, no, that is not TC at all :P
15:18:20 <Gregor> elliott: Yes yes and the universe has bounded matter so we DEAL WITH IT.
15:18:21 <elliott> When you're at the asm level, it's a pretty major distinction, because you pretty explicitly say "And this address is a WORD".
15:18:26 <elliott> Not so with e.g. Python.
15:18:28 <oklopol> so if two configs differ in exactly one cell, on the nth step in the orbit they differ in the nth cells in both directions from that point
15:18:36 <elliott> Gregor: Also, you don't know that :)
15:18:43 <oklopol> erm, assuming neighborhood {0, 1}
15:18:57 <Gregor> elliott: Yes I do, I'm omniscient!
15:18:58 <oklopol> and i don't know anything about algebraic topology, except that it's apparently really really awesome
15:19:18 <crystal-cola> it seems like a good idea but the proofs are horrible
15:19:26 <crystal-cola> I think it's because the book I looked at sucks
15:19:35 <oklopol> crystal-cola: oh and here linear just means you have Z_n as the states, and the rule must compute a linear combination of what it sees in the neighborhood
15:19:38 <elliott> crystal-cola: how did that category theory go
15:19:53 <oklopol> commutation just means F(G(c)) = G(F(c)) for all configs
15:19:59 <crystal-cola> I don't know what you mean? I typed out a bunch of shit then deleted it
15:20:19 <elliott> deleted it? why
15:20:28 <crystal-cola> it's useless
15:20:39 <crystal-cola> I learned about cones and direct limits though
15:20:47 <elliott> might not be useless to everyone.
15:21:16 <crystal-cola> you should put lots of old code you've written up on the web
15:21:31 <elliott> it was just the way you phrased it
15:23:03 <crystal-cola> oklopol: so there is a characterization for linear ones already?
15:23:15 <oklopol> crystal-cola: yes, proven by me and a uni friend
15:23:32 <oerjan> ouch reddit is still down
15:23:34 <crystal-cola> wwhat sort of description is it?
15:23:37 <oklopol> well, at least for n = prime, otherwise the rule may not be permutive
15:23:48 <oklopol> crystal-cola: they're all linear or affine (affine = linear + constant)
15:24:06 <oklopol> it's obvious that linear ones commute with linear ones
15:24:16 <oklopol> but that nothing else does needed a small trick
15:24:29 <oklopol> (essentially nothing else)
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15:24:51 <crystal-cola> did you write a paper on it?
15:25:41 <oklopol> not before we solve the affine ones at least
15:25:47 <oklopol> (assuming that's as easy)
15:26:01 <crystal-cola> okay
15:26:33 <oklopol> in the meantime i'm publishing other stuff
15:27:05 <oklopol> which is also pretty awesome, i proved the age old conjecture that NFA = FNFA which has been open for 20 years and thought about by at least 4 persons
15:27:20 <crystal-cola> wow
15:27:42 <oklopol> not really :D
15:28:28 <crystal-cola> Wow a complexity class that isn't mentioned on complexity zoo
15:28:41 <oklopol> which one's that
15:28:50 <oklopol> oerjan: remember left sets?
15:29:05 <crystal-cola> What is FNFA?
15:29:24 <oklopol> i realized the other day that it's trivial to prove that there are no sparse NP-complete sets with respect to *many-to-one* reductions
15:29:31 <oklopol> i'd love to prove this at some point
15:29:31 <oerjan> um, argh
15:29:39 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm not sure i've even mentioned them
15:30:01 <oerjan> i remember the name
15:30:21 <oklopol> crystal-cola: FNFA is what i call the class of picture languages accepted by nondeterministic finite state automata that walk on the cells of given pictures, and are allowed to exit their domain
15:30:25 <oklopol> NFA the same but not allowed
15:30:59 <crystal-cola> why are they equivalent?
15:31:08 <oklopol> oerjan: okay, well in any case i'm sure my explanation was rather unclear last time
15:31:14 <oklopol> crystal-cola: i don't have a short proof
15:31:29 <crystal-cola> ok
15:31:30 <oklopol> but i have two not that long proofs
15:31:42 <oklopol> i can link the article if and when i get it published
15:34:21 <crystal-cola> it must feel good proving a theorem nobody proved before
15:35:03 <oklopol> it probably would if a large amount of people had actually tried and failed
15:35:11 <oklopol> i've just picked up random stuff from age old articles
15:35:24 <oklopol> (and the handbook of formal languages)
15:35:40 <oklopol> (but who the fuck has read the last book anyway)
15:36:08 <crystal-cola> that reminds me ... I wonder if Knuths new book is good
15:36:19 <crystal-cola> it sounded kind of interesting
15:38:11 <oklopol> so umm the monster sounds
15:38:15 <oklopol> they are so goddamn scary :(
15:38:34 <oklopol> i can't do anything when i hear them, i just stay still and pee my pants
15:40:19 <elliott> they are
15:40:22 <elliott> you could mute it
15:44:09 <oklopol> you know i could never do that
15:45:19 <crystal-cola> ###wwww###
15:45:24 <crystal-cola> # wwww #
15:45:25 <crystal-cola> # wwww #
15:45:27 <crystal-cola> ###wwww###
15:45:33 <crystal-cola> # is dirt and w is water
15:45:33 <elliott> ...w
15:45:41 <crystal-cola> oh the last line should have been ##########
15:45:45 <oklopol> can monsters spawn on a platform of size 1 :\
15:45:48 <oklopol> if i'm there
15:45:49 <crystal-cola> you can build a house like that
15:45:50 <elliott> oklopol: no :P
15:45:54 <elliott> well i think
15:45:54 <elliott> theoretiaclly
15:45:55 <oklopol> because i'm not going down...
15:45:55 <elliott> yes
15:45:56 <elliott> but no
15:45:57 <oklopol> :(
15:46:02 <elliott> oklopol: no
15:46:03 <oklopol> i don't like the sound of that theory
15:46:04 <elliott> seriously, no
15:46:05 <oklopol> thank you
15:46:06 <crystal-cola> GUYS
15:46:06 <elliott> they wouldn't fit :P
15:46:08 <elliott> i've done it before
15:46:08 <crystal-cola> GUYS
15:46:12 <elliott> oklopol: btw an awesome thing is:
15:46:16 <elliott> oklopol: build high tower
15:46:18 <elliott> build sky base
15:46:19 <elliott> light it
15:46:21 <elliott> TADA
15:46:23 <elliott> sky base
15:46:24 <elliott> = floor
15:46:28 <elliott> no ceiling or anything needed
15:46:36 <crystal-cola> you can build an under-lake house
15:47:10 <oklopol> i'm going to build a giant monument shaped like a famous bisexual
15:47:51 <oklopol> see i suppose i found a dungeon because suddenly i started hearing scary during the day
15:48:02 <oklopol> and i couldn't continue looking for coal
15:48:13 <oklopol> because i had to keep peeing myself
15:48:15 <elliott> oklopol: if it's just whooshy noises and sirens and shit
15:48:16 <elliott> that just means
15:48:19 <elliott> there's dark within a few blocks of you
15:48:23 <elliott> i.e. darkness underneath
15:48:29 <oklopol> it was monster sounds
15:48:31 <elliott> if you actually hear HRRRRNG or whatever, that's monsters.
15:48:35 <elliott> oklopol: well it could jsut be darkness
15:48:38 <elliott> oklopol: was there WHOOSH osunds too?
15:48:40 <elliott> if so, yeah, spwaner.
15:48:51 <oklopol> well there was monster sounds, that's all i know
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15:49:13 <oklopol> OH FUCKING HELL
15:49:27 <oerjan> every time you miss a pun, a monster spawns
15:50:41 <crystal-cola> arrows are dangeous
15:50:51 <oklopol> did i miss a pun? i don't want no monsters :\
15:51:05 <oklopol> crystal-cola: thank you for telling me
15:51:14 <oklopol> pants were getting a bit too dry
15:51:14 <crystal-cola> oklopol: listen if you get hit by arrows you can die
15:51:23 <oerjan> oklopol: that's what the WHOOSH sounds are, duh
15:51:32 <oklopol> xD
15:52:00 <oklopol> aaaaaaand it's raining
15:52:11 <oklopol> is there a chance of lightning nowadays?
15:52:13 <crystal-cola> raining in minecraft??
15:52:22 <oklopol> yes
15:52:32 <oklopol> if it was raining irl, i'd be outside, running naked
15:52:39 <crystal-cola> I was upset when they stopped wood from burning infinitely
15:52:49 <crystal-cola> because that was a great party zone for free bacon
15:52:50 <oerjan> i saw some mention that there would be thunderstorms added to mc
15:53:18 <oklopol> oerjan is a theoretical minecraftologician
15:53:33 <crystal-cola> u'u
15:53:34 <crystal-cola> lol
15:53:38 <oerjan> well it was either here, or in an r/all title
15:54:36 <crystal-cola> URGH
15:54:41 <crystal-cola> how do I turn off "Acheivement get!"
15:54:42 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:55:15 <oklopol> what's wrong with acheivement get?
15:55:19 <crystal-cola> I hate it
15:55:26 <oklopol> everyone loves achievements!
15:55:31 <crystal-cola> not me :/
15:55:44 <oklopol> u so crazy!
15:56:17 <oklopol> this thing is on hard but i'm not seeing any monsters
15:56:29 <oklopol> i think they're PLOTTING
15:57:56 <oerjan> graph monsters
15:59:28 <oklopol> oerjan: so let L be in NP. then there's A in P and polynomial p such that x in L iff exists w in \Sigma^p(|x|) such that (x, w) in A
16:00:13 <oklopol> this is a theorem by D. F. Inition
16:00:23 <oerjan> a very clever guy
16:00:25 <oklopol> yes
16:01:39 <oklopol> anyhow we now define the left set as Left(L, A, p) = {(x, y) | y \in \Sigma^p(|x|) and exists w such that y <= w, (x, w) in A}
16:01:58 <oklopol> so take A and close the right sides by lexicographic smallerness
16:02:14 <oklopol> then note: Left is in NP
16:02:44 <oklopol> this is a theorem by O. Bivious
16:04:06 <oklopol> i'm just giving you some definitions now so you'll have an easier time following later on
16:04:17 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:04:20 <oklopol> :D
16:04:22 <oklopol> what
16:04:37 <oerjan> food ->
16:07:56 <oklopol> listen, we'll make a deal. you listen to this, and you can teach me whatever you want later on
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16:13:59 <elliott> seosoeosoeoseoseosoeoseose
16:14:07 <oklopol> well look who came crawling back
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16:16:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: flour
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16:19:52 <oklopol> what is "advanced opengl"
16:21:24 <ais523> the opposite of retarded opengl?
16:21:38 <oklopol> it's an mc term
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16:22:17 <elliott> oklopol: it makes the taps into the computer phones.
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16:25:06 <elliott> <Holier_than_thou> anyone else surprised at how little there is to do on the internet beside reddit?
16:25:10 <elliott> --reddit-downtime
16:25:29 <crystal-cola> it's true and disappointing
16:25:52 <oerjan> it certainly feels that way
16:25:57 <crystal-cola> internet had potential to be so good
16:26:02 <elliott> crystal-cola: internet is good.
16:26:17 <crystal-cola> now it's all just "download transformes II and mean girls" holywood movies
16:26:47 <elliott> no
16:26:49 <elliott> it isn't
16:27:24 <oklopol> i don't really know what reddit is except that sometimes people link things through reddit, but the internet doesn't really have much to offer
16:27:32 <elliott> irc
16:27:47 <elliott> ais523: can you delete template:pre, it's angering the locals
16:27:49 * Phantom_Hoover returns.
16:27:50 <oklopol> well yeah but i could just be out with my other awesome friends
16:27:54 <crystal-cola> why isn't there a website (or whatever) for people that want to learn stuff?
16:28:10 <oerjan> elliott: YMT "Natives" HTH
16:28:16 <crystal-cola> if I want to learn quantum mechanics (for example) why can't I find a group of people that also want to? Using the internet
16:28:29 <oklopol> oerjan: oh great you're back! wanna learn more?
16:28:34 <ais523> crystal-cola: Usenet was a bit like that, before it was ruined
16:28:38 <elliott> crystal-cola: you almost certainly can on irc
16:28:41 <Phantom_Hoover> crystal-cola, obviously because you don't actually want to, and instead want to bitch about it.
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16:43:04 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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16:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm... what.
16:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Why was glogbot down.
16:44:35 <elliott> yeah
16:45:33 * oerjan swats FireFly for obviously being responsible -----###
16:46:00 <FireFly> :(
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16:46:56 <elliott> Gregor: where did the wire
16:46:57 <elliott> fly by
16:46:59 <elliott> there was none
16:47:00 <elliott> no glogbot
16:47:02 <elliott> and the tears--
16:47:05 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest49679.
16:47:12 <elliott> and the guest
16:47:15 <elliott> four nine six
16:47:16 <elliott> seven nine
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16:48:02 <crystal-cola> ugh why are people so stupid
16:48:06 <crystal-cola> everything is extremely simple
16:48:34 <crystal-cola> this guy is asking how to prove a theorem that he doesn't even know how to state
16:48:42 <crystal-cola> maybe that's why you can prove it ..?
16:49:25 <oklopol> lllllllllllllllol
16:50:13 <oklopol> so anyhow what we do is we do a binary search to find, given x, the lexicographically maximal witness, that is, the lexicographically biggest w such that (x, w) in A
16:51:12 <oklopol> we keep track of a set of disjoint intervals of strings, starting with {[0^p(|x|), 1^p(|x|)]}, such that if x is in L, then the biggest witness is in one of those intervals
16:51:53 <oklopol> oerjan: is it okay if i do it like this, in the course of the following 7 weeks?
16:56:05 -!- Guest49679 has changed nick to Gregor.
16:56:11 <Gregor> Yee haw >_>
16:56:45 <Gregor> The real question is, wtf was glogbackup doing?
16:57:42 <ais523> nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
17:00:32 <oklopol> have they added snakes or do spiders make a snake noise
17:01:35 <elliott> neither
17:02:06 <oklopol> what is it then? and what monster plays the xylophone?
17:02:48 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:03:12 * oerjan imagines a skeleton monster might do that
17:04:33 <elliott> oklopol: xylophone is skeleton, yeah
17:04:41 <elliott> the snake sound probably is the spider slurp.
17:05:03 <oklopol> but there's also the rattling of chains, i thought that might be a skeleton
17:05:17 <elliott> err
17:05:18 <elliott> wut
17:05:21 <elliott> rattling of chains?
17:05:25 <elliott> probably skeleton
17:05:26 <oklopol> something like that
17:05:28 <elliott> i
17:05:28 <elliott> guess
17:07:47 <oklopol> sooooo i found the dungeon i guess
17:07:56 <elliott> oklopol: keep the spawner maybe
17:08:00 <elliott> they can be used to make mob harvesters
17:08:11 <elliott> if you just surround it with shit on all sides nothing will spawn and you can loot the chest
17:08:12 <elliott> s
17:09:01 <oklopol> i have about one heart left
17:09:10 <oklopol> should prolly wait till morning and hunt a bit
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17:20:39 <oklopol> argh morning came and creeper stayed
17:21:29 <elliott> ye
17:21:29 <elliott> s
17:21:31 <elliott> creepers do that
17:22:05 <oklopol> usually only if you're near them in my experience
17:22:16 <oklopol> oh right, i've never played with hard
17:23:23 <elliott> oklopol: um no
17:23:26 <elliott> oklopol: creepers stay no matter what
17:23:27 <elliott> well
17:23:31 <elliott> if they're really far away
17:23:33 <elliott> they get despawned
17:23:35 <elliott> like all mobs
17:23:43 <elliott> but no, creepers never die :P
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17:23:59 <oklopol> well both of the creepers disappeared now and i never went that far from them
17:24:32 <elliott> or it is just HIDDEN
17:24:53 <oklopol> why would a creeper do such a creepy thing
17:25:21 <elliott> GOD PH SUCKS
17:26:30 <oklopol> elliott: remember those creepers that disappeared?
17:26:37 <elliott> yep?
17:26:38 <elliott> :D
17:27:23 <oklopol> let's just say AAAAAAAAAAAARGRHGHRARG
17:27:29 <elliott> :DD
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17:30:37 <elliott> oklopol: summon ph plz
17:30:39 <elliott> with like
17:30:40 <elliott> magic
17:30:56 <oklopol> ph: stop being such a famous bisexual
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17:32:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover
17:32:41 <elliott> you stopped being a famous bisexual
17:32:44 <oklopol> i
17:32:49 <oklopol> almost had a heart attack
17:33:06 <elliott> :D
17:33:07 <oklopol> a skeleton
17:33:10 <elliott> oh
17:33:11 <oklopol> jumped in front of me
17:33:12 <elliott> thort cuz of ph
17:33:14 <oklopol> not ph
17:33:23 <elliott> oklopol: if this was the server we'd come and give you armour and protect you
17:33:26 <elliott> but it isn't so hahahahahah die
17:33:51 <oklopol> holy shit, i can't do shit to that thing
17:33:51 <oklopol> :D
17:33:57 <elliott> oklopol: do you have a: sord
17:34:00 <oklopol> yes
17:34:00 <elliott> or a: armor
17:34:05 <elliott> and a: armor?
17:34:05 <oklopol> well no :DPS
17:34:09 <elliott> lulz
17:34:12 <elliott> go kill some pigs or some iron
17:34:13 <elliott> yes
17:34:14 <elliott> kill some iron
17:34:18 <elliott> and fashion it into iron corpse armor
17:34:31 <oklopol> the thing is the guy is in water
17:34:38 <oklopol> maybe it's not a dungeon after all
17:35:04 <elliott> waternjeon
17:35:08 <oklopol> i... lasted about a second down there
17:35:15 <oklopol> that was... fun
17:35:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Go kill some *yourself*).
17:35:46 <oklopol> and i respawn during the night and a creeper blows up in front of me within 5 seconds
17:35:46 -!- monqy has joined.
17:36:25 <elliott> lol
17:37:21 <oklopol> this game is kind of hard :D
17:37:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:38:06 <elliott> oklopol: wanna know a tip
17:38:10 <oklopol> yes
17:38:18 <elliott> oklopol: if you get a bed (make sure it has two blocks before the outside world, i.e. not right against your one-thick wall)
17:38:22 <elliott> oklopol: then if you get in at the start of a night
17:38:24 <elliott> it skips the whole night
17:38:26 <elliott> and no monsters spawn
17:38:35 <elliott> cheating? absolutely, but there's still monsters underground
17:38:39 <elliott> a relief? fuck yes
17:42:17 <oklopol> hahaaa that was fun, survived at least a minute, an arrow going past every 2 seconds :D
17:42:31 <oklopol> then i dropped into a hole, couldn't see anything
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17:56:02 <oklopol> so i finally found back and jumped in the dungeon, and there were no monsters. so i was alone with a monster spawner and couldn't get back up
17:56:04 <oklopol> that was... fun
17:56:46 <elliott> :D
17:58:01 <oklopol> i also had no dirt or anything because i didn't know there really was a monster spawner and didn't want to lose anything if i die
17:59:24 <elliott> lose all that precious dirt
17:59:37 <oklopol> yeeeeeeeeeeah
17:59:39 <elliott> you realise you can get stuff back for about five minutes
17:59:41 <elliott> if you run quick
17:59:43 <oklopol> in retrospect, ...
18:00:08 <oklopol> ah yeah jump back in the monster spawner hole
18:01:44 <elliott> :D
18:01:46 <elliott> good idea
18:03:56 <ais523> Vorpal: how would you do an "are you sure? yes/no" prompt in bash?
18:06:24 <elliott> echo -n "Are you sure? "; read answer; if [ "[dollar]answer" [excl.]= "y" ]; then echo nm; exit; fi; ...
18:06:34 <elliott> You might want to handle Y and yes and Yes too :P
18:06:44 <elliott> (Using grep, say)
18:08:50 <crystal-cola> ##categorytheory - most boring channel ever
18:09:18 <ais523> I came up with read -n1 -p"Are you sure? (y/n) " && echo && test x$REPLY = xy || exit
18:09:18 <oklopol> what are bones good for?
18:09:58 <oklopol> crystal-cola: i idled there for a few days, earlier, and there was some monologue by augur about some CT stuff
18:09:59 <Vorpal> ais523, try select
18:10:04 <elliott> oklopol: bonemeal
18:10:07 <Vorpal> ais523, least known keyword of bash
18:10:28 <elliott> ais523: xfoo = xy?
18:10:29 <elliott> seriously?
18:10:34 <elliott> have you ever heard of double quotes?
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18:10:57 <ais523> elliott: it's standard
18:10:58 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Bone_Meal
18:11:01 <elliott> ais523: no, it isn't
18:11:02 <ais523> because test is confused by empty arguments
18:11:04 <elliott> it's standard if this is the 90s
18:11:07 <elliott> no, it isn't
18:11:46 <elliott> ais523: /especially/ not if this is bash-specific
18:11:57 <elliott> since test is a built-in
18:12:02 <Vorpal> ais523, did you try select?
18:12:03 <elliott> (also, why not use [ ... ] instead?)
18:12:24 <Vorpal> <ais523> because test is confused by empty arguments <-- good reason to use [[ ]] yes
18:12:26 <ais523> I find test easier to read
18:12:30 <elliott> oklopol: also As of Beta 1.4, bones are used to tame wild wolves. More than one bone will need to be used on the wolf in most cases. Bone Meal cannot be used to tame wolves.
18:12:35 <elliott> Vorpal: except it _isn't_
18:12:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it is unless you quote them
18:12:44 <elliott> show me a bash version where, with proper quoting, test fails on empty arguments
18:12:46 <elliott> of course it is
18:12:48 <elliott> if you don't quote them
18:12:51 <elliott> they're not empty arguments
18:12:54 <elliott> it's just whitespace
18:12:55 <Vorpal> quite
18:12:59 <elliott> does nobody _understand_ how the shell works?
18:13:06 <elliott> that's an argument against the shell's syntax, not test
18:13:12 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed.
18:14:30 <crystal-cola> im watching this guys videos about how angles and stuff are wrong
18:14:51 <crystal-cola> http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~norman/views2.htm
18:15:27 <elliott> do you ever listen to people who say things are right
18:15:55 <crystal-cola> heh
18:16:09 <elliott> "The `Axioms' are first of all unintelligible unless you are already a trained mathematician."
18:16:16 <elliott> yep, that's relevant to the foundation of formalised mathematics, absolutely
18:16:18 <crystal-cola> yeah anti-axiomatics is kind of a cool view
18:16:25 <elliott> not really?
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18:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, erm, the attitude that "deduction from axioms is all that is necessary" is not a very constructive one.
18:17:28 <crystal-cola> every does math based on axioms, or at least they think they are doing so
18:17:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: when did i say that
18:17:57 <elliott> crystal-cola: let me summarise that article for you
18:18:12 <elliott> "this is a bit unintuitive at first glance, because i said so. i bet you don't understand it. therefore it's wrong"
18:18:18 <crystal-cola> hehe
18:19:59 <crystal-cola> he has some good points abuot angles
18:20:09 <crystal-cola> you can basically do trigonometry without calculus
18:20:14 <crystal-cola> so why not do that?
18:20:40 <elliott> waste of time?
18:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way he says "the axiom of infinity is clearly rubbish, it doesn't define what an infinite set is" when the reason it doesn't do that is because he stripped out the definition.
18:21:28 <crystal-cola> I mean normal things like angles and trigonometry can only be rigorously done in terms of calculus
18:21:41 <crystal-cola> but you usally learn these things before learning enough calculus to justify them
18:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> ...they can?
18:22:00 <crystal-cola> so if you are going to do trigonometry at all why do it in that way? Since there is an easier way
18:22:12 <crystal-cola> one that isn't founded on more advanced mathematics
18:22:21 <elliott> you mean: one that isn't founded on anything formal at all.
18:22:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think crystal-cola understands how rigour works.
18:22:38 <crystal-cola> both can be made completely rigorous
18:22:49 <crystal-cola> the only difference is how much work it takes
18:23:42 <oklopol> "<crystal-cola> you can basically do trigonometry without calculus" <<< because it's no fun
18:24:22 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> ...they can?" <<< what?
18:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't know that, but I suppose it makes a bit of sense.
18:24:58 <oklopol> crystal-cola: another difference is you're not doing math, eventually you might disagree with someone.
18:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, erm, what is it with you and needing everything to be completely rigorous?
18:25:17 <crystal-cola> oklopol: ??
18:25:47 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: er, because not being rigorous is not fun?
18:25:49 <oklopol> i just said it
18:26:03 <copumpkin> real ultimate rigor comes in #agda
18:26:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm... not sure that's at all universal among mathematicians.
18:26:15 <copumpkin> tedium is fun!
18:26:20 <oklopol> tedium is not at all fun
18:26:24 <copumpkin> I love it
18:26:28 <oklopol> well you're crazy
18:26:31 <copumpkin> lol
18:26:33 <copumpkin> just kidding
18:26:33 <oklopol> :D
18:26:38 <oklopol> me too
18:26:40 <crystal-cola> what do you mean oklopol
18:26:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not even sure it's typical.
18:26:42 <copumpkin> I like automatinc/abstracting over tedium
18:26:44 <oklopol> you can love whatever you want
18:26:53 <oklopol> crystal-cola: mean by what?
18:26:56 <crystal-cola> 19:24 < oklopol> crystal-cola: another difference is you're not doing math, eventually you might disagree with someone.
18:27:05 <crystal-cola> are you talking about axiom-free mathematics?
18:27:13 <oklopol> ah, well that's the reason we do math based on axioms: people cannot disagree
18:27:19 <oklopol> that's lovely
18:27:30 <crystal-cola> people can disagree... if at least one of them is wrong
18:27:34 <copumpkin> I can reject your axioms
18:27:39 <oklopol> well i've never ever seen that happen
18:27:41 <copumpkin> and tell you you're living a lie
18:27:52 <elliott> remember when crystal-cola said the trolling was over :D
18:27:53 * copumpkin is an ultrahyperfinitist
18:27:58 <oklopol> copumpkin: you can reject my axioms all you want, i'm not claiming they are correct
18:28:04 <elliott> copumpkin: i'm so ultrafinitist I don't even believe in two
18:28:08 <elliott> I am therefore a solipsist
18:28:10 <copumpkin> oklopol: yeah, but I can try to make you feel bad for wasting your life!
18:28:18 <elliott> and all my sentences, of which there is only one, are composed out of one word with one letter
18:28:36 <oklopol> for the purpose of this kind of arguments, a mathematician should be a formalist
18:28:40 <oklopol> *every
18:29:01 <crystal-cola> elliott: why do you always talk about finitism?
18:29:08 <elliott> * copumpkin is an ultrahyperfinitist
18:29:11 <elliott> copumpkin is the one that brought it up
18:29:18 <crystal-cola> you always talk about it
18:29:22 <elliott> no i don't
18:29:26 <crystal-cola> yes you do
18:29:32 <elliott> i see the ban taught you nothing
18:29:46 <crystal-cola> check the logs if you don't remember
18:29:46 * copumpkin is an avid follower of norman wildberger
18:30:19 <oklopol> crystal-cola: in any case that's not my actual argument against axiom-free geometry, my argument is i don't get anything out of it, because i don't know what we're talking about.
18:30:30 <crystal-cola> elliott: You talk about finitism all the time, I wonder why because you're obviously not actually a finitist
18:30:37 <elliott> crystal-cola: no, I do not
18:30:39 <crystal-cola> elliott: Basically you're trolling. Why do you keep doing it?
18:30:54 <elliott> shame oerjan isn't around right now.
18:31:05 <oklopol> well, i get something out of it
18:31:23 <crystal-cola> 14:19:52 <elliott> I'm starting the Order of Ultrafinitist Programmers, we code exclusively in lookup tables
18:31:24 <oklopol> but it doesn't have that taste of exciting sexiness that set theory based math has
18:31:26 <crystal-cola> yesterday
18:31:32 <ais523> oklopol: in axiom-free geometry, wouldn't everything be false?
18:31:34 <crystal-cola> You brought up finitism
18:31:37 <ais523> it seems a little pointless and degeneraet
18:31:38 <elliott> crystal-cola: please just shut up.
18:31:39 <ais523> *degenerate
18:31:42 <ais523> or am I missing the point?
18:31:46 <crystal-cola> elliott: because I proved you wrong? Okay
18:31:57 <oklopol> ais523: i assume axiom-free geometry means doing geometry like kids do it
18:32:09 <ais523> oklopol: oh, I see
18:32:17 <ais523> but kids have lots of axioms, much more than just four or five
18:32:26 <oklopol> sure
18:32:28 <ais523> everything they know is treated like an axiom, pretty much
18:32:34 <crystal-cola> elliott: People are having a serious discussion about metamathematics. Stop telling me off for not doing anything wrong and trolling about finitism and just generally being an ass.
18:34:56 <elliott> crystal-cola: there is no serious discussion, there is just you being a dick and trolling again, whether intentionally or not
18:35:02 <oklopol> ais523: but the point is axiomatizing geometry directly is really tedious, and it was not long ago that they discovered that a crucial axiom (which had been used tons of times) was missing from the usual axiom set; and doing it the calculus way, talking about R^n, requires a lot of (")advanced(") math
18:35:13 <crystal-cola> elliott: wrong
18:35:17 <oklopol> and it's something pretty much everyone agrees with
18:35:31 <oklopol> without any sort of explicit axioms
18:35:51 <ais523> oklopol: what axiom was that?
18:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> crystal-cola, shut up.
18:36:25 <oklopol> ais523: i don't recall, it was mentioned in our geometry course (the least formal course we have in the whole university)
18:36:32 <elliott> crystal-cola: fsvo wrong
18:36:44 <elliott> I guess it works when you /ignore everyone who disagrees, though
18:36:52 <oklopol> something pretty simple like if you have a point and a line, there's a closest point on the line or something
18:36:58 <crystal-cola> what
18:37:06 <elliott> crystal-cola: <Phantom_Hoover> crystal-cola, shut up.
18:37:15 <crystal-cola> okay I'll /ignore you too
18:37:23 <elliott> i'm so surprised
18:37:24 <crystal-cola> stops us arguing as a bonus
18:37:29 <elliott> how long until you're ignoring three fourths of the channel again
18:37:32 <oklopol> maybe i'll see if i can find it
18:39:01 <ais523> wow, this system is so bizarrely broken that /etc/mtab was replaced by NetHack's helpfile
18:39:13 <elliott> ais523: :D
18:39:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ...what is /etc/mtab normally?
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18:47:07 <oklopol> oerjan: for your logreading pleasure: a single step of the algorithm splits all the intervals in two, which means that in a polynomial amount of steps w.r.t. |x| (because strings are of length p(|x|)), we have that every interval is of size 1. of course, i haven't really told you why we're writing an algorithm, maybe i'll do that later.
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18:52:48 <oklopol> "Sometime in their second or third year, a dramatic change happens in the training of aspiring pure mathematicians. They start being introduced to the idea of rigorous thinking and proofs, and gradually become aware that they are not at the peak of intellectual achievement, but just at the foothills of a very onerous climb."
18:53:12 <oklopol> second/third year? lol
18:53:57 <crystal-cola> I never got introduced to anything rigorous in my math courses
18:54:13 <copumpkin> it's sad
18:54:15 <oklopol> you've mentioned
18:54:19 <crystal-cola> which is fine, I am able to supply my own rigor
18:54:32 <crystal-cola> but I do think "normal" students cannot
18:55:28 <oklopol> Do you suppose the curriculum at this point has time or inclination to return to the material they learnt in public school and high school, and finally organize it properly? When we start to get really picky about logical correctness, doesn't it make sense to go back and ensure that all those subjects that up to now have only been taught in a loose and cavalier fashion get a proper rigorous treatment?
18:55:31 <oklopol> Isn't this the appropriate time to finally learn what a number in fact is, why exactly the laws of arithmetic hold, what the correct definitions of a line and a circle are, what we mean by a vector, a function, an area and all the rest? You might think so, but there are two very good reasons why this is nowhere done.
18:55:47 <oklopol> they don't teach people what functions actually are? :D
18:55:58 <oklopol> i think this guy's problem is he went to a zoo instead of a university
18:56:00 <crystal-cola> oklopol: Nobody ever taught me what a function was
18:56:22 <crystal-cola> oklopol: I think you are very lucky to have been taught things properly - I am a sample of 1 but I don't think it's normal
18:56:44 <oklopol> a function from X to Y is a subset S of XxY such that for all x, there is exactly one y such that (x, y) is in S, this is one of the first sentences in every book and lecture notes
18:56:58 <ais523> oklopol: I don't think I've been formally taught what functions are either
18:57:08 <ais523> but I picked it up quite quickly (it helps that my father knew the actual definition)
18:57:23 <ais523> and in a computer science department, if you're missing something that basic you ask someone and learn it very quickly
18:57:57 <oklopol> well i haven't seen a more tedious definition than that, that is, most definitions are based on set&tuple theory instead of set theory
19:00:18 <oklopol> "The first reason is that even the professors mostly don't know! They too have gone through a similar indoctrination, and never had to prove that multiplication is associative"
19:00:23 <oklopol> what
19:00:25 <oklopol> :D
19:00:38 <tswett> I only had my first real math class this year.
19:01:46 <oklopol> "Ask them just what a fraction is, or how to properly define an angle, or whether a polynomial is really a function or not, and see what kind of non-uniform rambling emerges!"
19:01:48 <oklopol> what the fuck
19:01:56 <crystal-cola> that was weird
19:02:03 <crystal-cola> someone disagreed with me in #haskell and I didn't get banned
19:02:05 <oklopol> "whether a polynomial is really a function or not"
19:02:10 <oklopol> ...
19:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, oerjan's not here.
19:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> When is he when you need someone banned.
19:02:39 <oklopol> this stuff is explained in painstaking detail in like 4 courses here
19:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ...are they not functions?
19:03:16 <crystal-cola> oklopol: yeah seriously I think you just go to an exceptionally good university
19:03:26 <crystal-cola> normally none of this stuff gets talked about
19:03:33 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: the problem is they can be both.
19:04:00 <oklopol> when you have say a ring you can define a formal polynomial ring
19:04:13 <oklopol> but then obviously you can also associate a function to each of those polynomials
19:04:21 <oklopol> so mind is blown
19:05:01 <ais523> elliott: do you have any idea how to remount / readonly on a system while it's running?
19:05:10 <elliott> ais523: can't you remount /?
19:05:14 <elliott> mount -o ro,remount / or whatever
19:05:16 <ais523> this is in a throwaway VM, so it doesn't matter if it screws up
19:05:20 <ais523> I tried that, it said "/ is busy"
19:05:25 <ais523> which was pretty inevitable, really
19:05:26 <elliott> ais523: force it
19:05:29 <ais523> ah, aha
19:05:35 <elliott> hmm, _can_ you force it
19:05:37 <elliott> lemme check
19:05:42 <ais523> yep, I could
19:05:55 <elliott> hmm
19:05:55 <oklopol> crystal-cola: from what i understand we're better than average, but we don't even get in the top 100.
19:05:56 <elliott> ais523: how?
19:05:59 <ais523> -f
19:06:00 <elliott> I see no force options in mount(one)
19:06:03 <oklopol> or was it top even more
19:06:08 <elliott> ais523: er
19:06:14 <elliott> -f, --fake
19:06:14 <elliott> Causes everything to be done except for the actual system call; if it's not obvious, this ``fakes'' mounting the filesystem. This option is useful in conjunc‐
19:06:14 <elliott> tion with the -v flag to determine what the mount command is trying to do. It can also be used to add entries for devices that were mounted earlier with the -n
19:06:14 <elliott> option. The -f option checks for existing record in /etc/mtab and fails when the record already exists (with regular non-fake mount, this check is done by ker‐
19:06:15 <ais523> ah, that's not a force option at all
19:06:15 <elliott> nel).
19:06:17 <elliott> ais523: FAIL :)
19:06:32 <crystal-cola> it doesn't really matter how math is taught
19:06:42 <ais523> even more amusingly, it seemed to have worked
19:06:43 <crystal-cola> if you're smart you'll probably prove good theorems no matter what
19:07:11 <oklopol> probably, i wouldn't know
19:07:32 <oklopol> because i'm not smart
19:07:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, FFS, stop talking to him.
19:08:56 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: sorry, can't please everyone
19:09:18 <oklopol> i have nothing against cc
19:09:20 <oklopol> well not much anyway
19:09:29 <oklopol> probably nothing at all
19:09:30 <elliott> oklopol: FUCKING CREEPER AMBUSHED ME FROM ABOVE
19:09:35 <oklopol> :\
19:09:45 <oklopol> must've been one famous bisexual
19:09:47 <ais523> hmm, only when you work inside someone else's screen(1) do you realise how much you use control-a for start-of-line
19:11:11 <oklopol> 'an infinite set is a collection of mathematical objects which isn't finite' xD
19:11:18 <oklopol> what the fuck kind of definition is that :D
19:12:21 <elliott> an infinite set is a set which is infinite
19:12:26 <oklopol> yes!
19:12:36 <oklopol> not finite, LOL :D
19:12:40 <Sgeo__> I seem to like the taste of mouthwash </random>
19:12:50 <oklopol> but yeah, that's a good definition right there
19:12:59 <elliott> oklopol: and a finite set is one without an infinite number of elements
19:13:05 <ais523> well, finite is probably easier to define than infinite, without circularity
19:13:15 <ais523> a set is finite if it has no elements, or one more element than some finite set
19:13:24 <Gregor> <GregorR> Have you looked at my unicode identifiers function by the way? I'm pretty proud of its sheer degree of horror :P
19:13:25 <Gregor> <dherman> no, lemme pull it up now
19:13:25 <Gregor> <dherman> omg
19:13:25 <Gregor> <dherman> you are insane
19:13:25 <Gregor> <GregorR> 8-D
19:13:34 <crystal-cola> category of finite sets
19:13:37 <elliott> Gregor: It's not _that_ much of a horrible hack :P
19:13:37 <oklopol> ais523: infinite sets are usually defined as sets containing a proper subset for which there is a bijection with the original set
19:13:50 <ais523> oklopol: does that work even without the axiom of choice?
19:13:52 <Gregor> elliott: Later: <dherman> that's actually just insane enough to feel right at home in Narcissus ;)
19:13:55 <elliott> Gregor: In a language with an eval that took an AST rather than a string, it might even elegant :P
19:13:58 <elliott> [asterisk]even be
19:14:10 <crystal-cola> that definition of infinite set works without choice
19:14:13 <oklopol> ais523: the definition certainly works
19:14:28 <Gregor> elliott: Uhh, in a language with an eval that took an AST instead of a string, it wouldn't work.
19:14:29 <ais523> oklopol: I mean, it might mark some infinite sets as not infinite
19:14:37 <ais523> due to the inability to chose an arbitrary such subset
19:14:39 <Gregor> elliott: Unless it did identifier validation over the AST for no real reason.
19:14:46 <elliott> Gregor: Sure it would, if you can construct an identifier node from a string.
19:14:51 <elliott> In fact, you'd just do that X-D
19:14:55 <oklopol> you have an axiom that gives you one element, and you have an axiom that lets you drop everything except that
19:15:02 <elliott> oklopol: Infinite sets are those which have at least as many elements as the natural numbers. The natural numbers are defined as the smallest infinite set.
19:15:34 <oklopol> but about this stuff, the prof is certainly right in my case.
19:15:48 <oklopol> which is good for him because it's his main point
19:15:56 <crystal-cola> anyway axiom-free mathematics is to just brush aside since axiomatization is "solved". Look at Eulers papers
19:18:29 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: Infinite sets are those which have at least as many elements as the natural numbers. The natural numbers are defined as the smallest infinite set." <<< who says there's nothing between |N| and the finite sets though? :)
19:18:47 <oklopol> say a subset of N that's not finite but not in bijection with N either
19:18:48 <elliott> oklopol: nobody. that's the magic of mathematics.
19:19:05 <elliott> oklopol: why CONSTRAIN yourself?
19:20:00 <oklopol> it's not very hard to prove with the tools i have, but the tools i have are not what are usually taken as the axioms
19:20:01 <crystal-cola> "subsets of N" is a difficult notionn
19:20:25 <oklopol> crystal-cola: in what sense?
19:20:27 <crystal-cola> consider permutations of N, is a subset of N just the first n elements of a permutation?
19:20:50 <oklopol> not with my definitions
19:20:54 <oklopol> that's exactly the finite sets
19:20:57 <oklopol> *definition
19:21:03 <oklopol> erm, finite subsets
19:21:25 <elliott> all subsets of N are finite, because they only have SOME of its elements, and N is the smallest infinite set
19:21:26 <elliott> qed
19:21:35 <crystal-cola> well even in the finite case it's awkward becuase of "wild" permutations
19:22:02 <oklopol> what are those?
19:22:36 <oklopol> no single permutation is all that wild
19:22:51 <oklopol> 1 is bijected to some n_1, 2 is bijected to some n_2...
19:23:16 <crystal-cola> http://qchu.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/i-dont-trust-uncountable-sets/
19:27:17 <crystal-cola> I guess one of the difficulties is, let S be a subset of N then consider the obvious bijection 1 -> first element of S, 2 -> second element, ...
19:27:32 <crystal-cola> almost all infinite sets S lead to functions that grow so fast...
19:27:44 <crystal-cola> much faster than busy beaver
19:27:55 <oklopol> ...and?
19:28:16 <crystal-cola> fast growing functions are a bitch, ever studied logic?
19:28:29 <ais523> <oklopol> you have an axiom that gives you one element <--- ah, that's the axiom I was missing
19:28:33 <ais523> I don't know sets from the axioms
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19:28:35 <elliott> oklopol: exponentiation ain't total don'tchaknow
19:28:44 <oklopol> not much, what's bitchy about fast growing functions?
19:28:52 <crystal-cola> they're just really difficult
19:29:04 <oklopol> difficult?
19:29:09 <crystal-cola> the rate of growth of a function is the sort of thing you need stronger and stronger axioms to deal tih
19:29:12 <crystal-cola> with
19:29:12 <oklopol> what's difficult about them, you don't need to do anything about them
19:29:39 <impomatic> Hi :-)
19:29:43 <oklopol> you just define a subset Y of X as a set such that y \in Y implies y \in X, and see what happens
19:29:43 <crystal-cola> like you can't prove ackermann terminates in weak logics.. you need something extra
19:29:50 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:29:52 <crystal-cola> and the same phenomenon happens all the time throughout
19:30:12 <oklopol> crystal-cola: and what does that have to do with anything? slow-growing functions can be bitches in the exact same sense.
19:30:27 <oklopol> in the sense that problems about them can be hard to solve
19:30:34 <crystal-cola> yeah that's true
19:30:50 <crystal-cola> I'm not saying I can prove false with this, I know it all works out fine in ZFC
19:32:33 <oklopol> and this is just great, he lists the zermelo-fraenkel axioms without giving the predicate and propositional logic axioms, and then says "look at these silly axioms referring to meaningless things"
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19:33:05 <crystal-cola> hehe
19:33:45 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Quit: More Portal 2!).
19:33:56 <oklopol> also in what sense are those axioms complicated
19:34:11 <crystal-cola> it's non-trivial that they are independent
19:34:13 <crystal-cola> for a star
19:34:14 <crystal-cola> t
19:34:23 <crystal-cola> and their proof theoretic strength is also quite high
19:34:38 <crystal-cola> there is a lot up with them
19:34:40 <oklopol> "Every nonempty set has a minimal element, that is one which does not contain another in the set." is the only thing that i find unintuitive apart from the stuff that's undefined, and that's a pretty useless axiom anyway
19:34:57 <oklopol> crystal-cola: no one's claiming they're independent
19:35:15 <oklopol> what is being claimed is that they are hard to understand / unintelligible
19:35:55 <crystal-cola> well personally I ahve no trouble using them
19:36:16 <crystal-cola> I don't know about others, I wouldn't claim everyone else finds them hard but I wouldn't be surprised
19:36:23 <crystal-cola> people have trouble learning the axioms of group theory...
19:37:48 <ais523> oklopol: the initial/final stuff is even more confusing when it comes to categories
19:38:11 <crystal-cola> why is that confusing?
19:38:29 <oklopol> initial = exactly one arrow from, per object; final = exactly one arrow to, per object
19:38:31 <ais523> and I'm not entirely convinced your axiom is correct either
19:38:42 <oklopol> what axiom?
19:38:48 <oklopol> the one i pasted?
19:38:52 <ais523> the minimal element one
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19:38:59 <oklopol> that's the axiom of foundation
19:39:12 <oklopol> it's correct in the sense that it's in the ZFC axiom set
19:39:17 <oklopol> but it's a pretty useless axiom
19:39:27 <oklopol> afaik, you don't need it for... well, anything
19:39:27 <oklopol> :D
19:39:28 <impomatic> Does anyone want to tell me how crap my C code is? http://twitcode.org/show/265/easter-sunday
19:40:03 <crystal-cola> impomatic: int main(int argc, char** argv)
19:40:10 <crystal-cola> impomatic: and return EXIT_SUCCESS;
19:40:27 <Vorpal> I loath this time of the year.
19:41:41 <impomatic> Thanks crystal-cola :-) Apart from that have I done anything stupid?
19:41:53 <Vorpal> impomatic, int main(void) would work too
19:42:07 <Vorpal> impomatic, is this C99 or C89?
19:42:14 <elliott> impomatic: crystal-cola is wrong
19:42:17 <elliott> int main() is perfectly acceptable
19:42:20 <crystal-cola> impomatic: I think you need to check if scanf worked
19:42:20 <elliott> in both versions of C
19:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
19:42:31 <Vorpal> if it is C99, you can actually skip returning a value at the end of main
19:42:32 <elliott> return EXIT_SUCCESS; is pointless verbosity
19:42:35 <elliott> EXIT_SUCCESS is defined to be 0
19:42:38 <elliott> so return 0; is fine
19:42:41 <elliott> and what Vorpal said
19:43:01 <Vorpal> though I tend to leave it in, even in C99
19:43:08 <elliott> impomatic: But i suggest you take the year as a command-line argument, not on stdin.
19:43:12 <impomatic> I only have the K&R book (first edition) so I guess it's pre C89 :-)
19:43:28 <elliott> ouch
19:43:44 <Vorpal> impomatic, actually "void easter(int year, int *month, int *date)" looks like ANSI C to me
19:44:28 <impomatic> Vorpal: I had to do that to keep the compiler happy
19:44:36 <Vorpal> impomatic, XD
19:44:43 <elliott> easter(y,m,d) int *m, int *d;
19:44:46 <elliott> FUCK YEAH K AND R
19:44:50 <elliott> wait
19:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, yeeeahhh.... no
19:44:53 <elliott> easter(y,m,d) int *m, *d;
19:44:54 <elliott> EVEN BETTER
19:45:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what about y?
19:45:13 <elliott> int is implicit
19:45:14 <elliott> n00b
19:45:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't say I have coded any pre-C89 C :P
19:45:57 <elliott> i think it is actually valid ansi c too to assume that. dunno
19:46:01 <elliott> pretty sure "auto x;" declares x as int anyway
19:46:40 <Vorpal> hm possibly
19:46:48 <Vorpal> elliott, auto, the least useful keyword in C
19:47:02 <elliott> you misspelled most awesome
19:47:21 <Vorpal> elliott, when did you last use it in code you wrote?
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19:47:27 <elliott> ALL THE TIME
19:47:32 <Vorpal> riiight
19:47:54 <Vorpal> elliott, especially when golfing right?
19:48:02 <Gregor> !c auto i;printf("I'm so glad I made %d be auto instead of static!\n", i);
19:48:10 <Gregor> EgoBot: OH NOOOOO
19:48:20 <elliott> glogbot: AT LEAST YOU SURVIVE
19:50:14 <elliott> Someone needs to start a group that MICROWAVES FOOD for FAR TOO LONG for SCIENCE.
19:50:25 <elliott> What happens when you put hot chocolate in the microwave for two hours??????????
19:50:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, get it back up1
19:50:50 <Vorpal> s/1/!/
19:50:52 <Gregor> elliott: Charcoal?
19:51:00 <elliott> Gregor: ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT
19:51:28 <elliott> I know that if you put it in for about twelve minutes you get a liquid completely coated in thick skin that retracts and expands in wrinkles rapidly and constantly for minutes afterwards.
19:51:33 <oklopol> "Now that you are comfortable with the definition of real numbers, perhaps you would like to know how to do arithmetic with them? How to add them, and multiply them? And perhaps you might want to check that once you have defined these operations, they obey the properties you would like, such as associativity etc. Well, all I can say is---good luck. If you write this all down coherently, you will certainly be the first to have done so."
19:51:34 <elliott> Possibly the most disturbing experience of my life.
19:51:35 <oklopol> what...
19:51:36 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:51:38 <impomatic> Grapes in the microwave?
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19:51:49 <Gregor> ... bizarre, I have no idea why it was down at all ...
19:51:54 <Gregor> !c auto i;printf("I'm so glad I made %d be auto instead of static!\n", i);
19:51:55 <impomatic> Today we melted glass in the microwave... Took about 15 minutes
19:51:58 <elliott> impomatic: Well, I was thinking things you'd usually put in the microwave, just not for that long, but sure :P
19:51:59 <EgoBot> I'm so glad I made 0 be auto instead of static!
19:52:02 <oklopol> go ever further in the cauchy sequence and prove stuff on rationals, then show convergence and independence of representative
19:52:15 <oklopol> that's standard stuff
19:52:27 <oklopol> everyone's done it :\
19:52:50 <crystal-cola> oklopol: that bit is weird, it's trivial to show that stuff corrrect... you just need a single non-constructive step (checking if a real number is zero or not)
19:52:57 <Gregor> elliott after six weeks in the microwave: ?!?!
19:53:02 <crystal-cola> for division
19:53:10 <elliott> Gregor: After ONE THOUSAND YEARS IN THE MICROWAVE: ...
19:53:21 <crystal-cola> oklopol: so not sure what is meant by that paragraph..
19:53:27 <elliott> Gregor: "Oh look. It has decomposed into quarks."
19:53:29 <elliott> "They are burnt."
19:53:35 <Gregor> elliott, plus microwave, after the heat death of the universe: ????????????
19:53:46 <elliott> OMFG
19:53:48 <elliott> Nested microwaving.
19:53:50 <oklopol> crystal-cola: yeah dunno, i think i really just like to complain
19:53:52 <oklopol> ;:D
19:53:58 <elliott> Put regular-sized microwave in extra-large microwave. Start something in the inner microwave.
19:54:00 <elliott> Close outer door. Start it.
19:54:02 <elliott> ???
19:54:04 <Gregor> Microwaves protect against microwave ovens.
19:54:06 <Gregor> Erm
19:54:09 <Gregor> Microwaves protect against microwave radiation.
19:54:13 <elliott> X-D
19:54:23 <Gregor> THEREFORE: Baby in inner microwave, inner microwave in outer microwave, SAFE BABY.
19:54:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, until air runs out
19:54:43 <Gregor> Vorpal: SAFE
19:55:20 <oklopol> well you can put it in the even microwaves
19:55:30 <Vorpal> elliott, would the inner microwave be battery powered? While the inner micro would most probably survive being microed, the AC cable to it would not
19:55:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Let's just say yes.
19:55:55 <elliott> Also, its plate would spin in the opposite direction.
19:55:56 <elliott> STILL BABY
19:56:07 <oklopol> a microwave would not survive another microwave
19:56:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> Also, its plate would spin in the opposite direction. <-- would it?
19:56:12 <elliott> Wouldn't the actual microwave oven itself... yeah :P
19:56:17 <elliott> Get sorta destroyed.
19:56:20 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd make sure it did.
19:56:36 <Vorpal> elliott, so the inner one would in fact then not rotate at all?
19:56:46 <elliott> FSVO "not rotate"
19:56:59 <elliott> But yeah, I think the actual oven itself would be the thing at risk :P
19:57:04 <Vorpal> <oklopol> a microwave would not survive another microwave <-- why? As Gregor said, "<Gregor> Microwave [ovens] protect against microwave radiation."
19:57:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yeah, but they have a lot of control circuitry which is supposed to be protected from the INSIDE microwaves, not OUTSIDE microwaves.
19:57:44 <oklopol> crystal-cola: hey i remember this classic line from my last reading of this
19:57:45 <oklopol> "Think clearly about the subject for a few days, and you will see that the computable real numbers are not countable , and are complete. Think for a few more days, and you will be able to see how to make these statements without any reference to `infinite sets', and that this suffices for Cantor's proof that not all irrational numbers are algebraic.
19:57:46 <oklopol> "
19:57:46 <elliott> Precisely :P
19:57:58 <crystal-cola> that's a subtle one
19:58:18 <crystal-cola> The computable reals are countable if you consider them as computter programs
19:58:23 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: Yeah, but they have a lot of control circuitry which is supposed to be protected from the INSIDE microwaves, not OUTSIDE microwaves. <-- oh, true
19:58:26 <crystal-cola> but cantors diagonalization still works
19:58:37 <crystal-cola> so it all depends if you're "inside" or "outside" the theory
19:58:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, so you could make every other nested microwave work
19:58:40 <elliott> Cantor's microwaved diagonalisation.
19:58:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: lol X-D
19:58:55 <elliott> X-D
19:58:59 <Gregor> Russian nesting microwaves.
19:59:01 <elliott> Oh my god we must nest these microwaves for science.
19:59:08 <elliott> We need to buy some gigantic fucking industrial microwaves.
19:59:25 <oklopol> crystal-cola: sure, but there's something funny about "think clearly", because it means "think about it the way i like to".
19:59:26 <elliott> TNT IN A MICROWAVE: ???
19:59:34 <crystal-cola> heh
19:59:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, of course, that is a an obvious logical extension of the theoretical framework for microwave nesting we developed above
20:00:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> TNT IN A MICROWAVE: ??? <-- I think it wouldn't explode. TNT iirc another charge to set it off?
20:00:19 <elliott> Darn. Dynamite? I NEED AN UNSTABLE EXPLOSIVE
20:00:30 <elliott> I FEEL LIKE CLUBS DEUCE
20:00:33 <Vorpal> elliott, dynamite wouldn't either
20:00:35 <Gregor> Thermite!
20:00:40 <ais523> isn't dynamite made of TNT?
20:00:47 <elliott> Gregor: YESSS
20:00:49 <Vorpal> elliott, thermite would, and nitroglycerin would
20:00:56 <Vorpal> ais523, no, nitroglycerin
20:01:05 <ais523> ah, with something to stabilise it?
20:01:39 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, another material (forgot which one, some rare earth iirc), is soaked in it
20:01:57 <Gregor> I don't think a company could get away with selling a microwave the size of a garage :P
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20:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, pure nitroglycerine?
20:02:23 <ais523> Gregor: someone would buy it, almost certainly
20:02:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I suggested that above
20:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Nitrogen triiodide?
20:02:27 <ais523> so you'd just do them as custom builds
20:02:42 <elliott> <Gregor> I don't think a company could get away with selling a microwave the size of a garage :P
20:02:44 <elliott> BEST MICROWAVE
20:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (This would go off if you lifted it, let alone microwave it.)
20:03:03 <elliott> Gregor: If nested microwaves could actually somehow provide safety, all the band has to do is PERFORM IN ONE
20:03:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Nitrogen triiodide? <-- that is worse than pure nitroglycerin right?
20:03:10 <elliott> With the reverse-spinning plates so they don't end up spinning around.
20:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, waaaaay worse.
20:03:23 <elliott> INSTANT HIT
20:03:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but it contains no oxygen?
20:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the stuff the sixth years in my school used to make landmines*
20:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *they only really made a bang.
20:03:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it doesn't need it.
20:04:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought the key point with nitroglycerin and TNT were that they contained enough oxygen so that everything could be oxidized without needing surrounding air.
20:04:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it's 2NI_3 → N_2 + 3I_2
20:04:42 <Vorpal> hm
20:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes, but that's because they both have carbon as well.
20:04:49 <Vorpal> oh right
20:04:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Which I assume acts as a stabiliser.
20:05:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The explosivity comes from the nitrogen, because N_2 is really really stable.
20:08:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, isn't that the key principle of TNT and nitroglycerin too?
20:08:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that's what I meant.
20:08:31 <Vorpal> right
20:09:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> It's the stuff the sixth years in my school used to make landmines* <Phantom_Hoover> *they only really made a bang. <-- they made nitrogen triiodide?
20:09:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
20:09:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh, how is it made?
20:09:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Even better, they were making gunpowder.
20:09:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how did they end up with this compound instead?
20:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But they ran out of potassium nitrate and sulphur, and when they asked for more the technician cottoned on.
20:10:00 <elliott> Can we just microwave antimatter instead?
20:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So he basically said "don't make that, make this!" and handed them the recipe.
20:10:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wha...
20:10:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, fun guy
20:10:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, was he able to keep his job afterwards?
20:10:42 <elliott> Pleasepleaseplease tell me that somehow managing to microwave even a tiny amount of antimatter would destroy millions of galaxies.
20:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Noöne even cared, really.
20:11:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it would be fairly boring. It would do the usual anti-matter stuff (which isn't boring), but the microwave wouldn't really add anything
20:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, microwave really tiny black holes.
20:11:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YES
20:11:43 <elliott> WHAT WOULD THAT EVEN DO
20:11:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what would that do?
20:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> That are set up so that they absorb exactly as much mass from the microwaves as they lose to Hawking radiation.
20:12:03 <elliott> IT SOUNDS SPECTACULAR
20:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> So when you turn your microwave off, OOPS GAMMA RAY EXPLOSION
20:12:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: X-D
20:12:25 <elliott> PERFECT
20:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I think they're equal-opportunities.
20:12:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I assume the aforementioned explosion would be fairly devestating.
20:12:50 <elliott> devastating.
20:13:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is under the assumption that Hawking radiation exists. Not proven yet.
20:13:18 <elliott> has hawking in the game, qed
20:13:23 <elliott> in the name
20:14:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, erm, "painful".
20:14:10 <oklopol> "ANTI-BLACKHOLE" does every black hole have an equal diarrhea hole in some other part of the universe?
20:14:24 <elliott> OR "EARTH WOULD CEASE TO EXIST"
20:14:27 <elliott> OR "YOU MIGHT GET A FEW BURNS"
20:14:34 <elliott> OR "PROBABLY A HEADACHE"
20:14:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (Although black holes confuse me because technically there's nothing actually inside the event horizon.
20:15:26 <oklopol> every black hole contains an infinite set
20:15:37 <Vorpal> <oklopol> "ANTI-BLACKHOLE" does every black hole have an equal diarrhea hole in some other part of the universe? <-- that would be a white hole I think, which I *think* would be different from an anti-black-hole
20:16:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I would assume it would kill you. Not sure how far it would reach.
20:17:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover MUST ANSWER
20:17:08 <oklopol> elliott: every time a black hole and a white hole are joined in holy matrimony, an uncountable set is born
20:17:14 <elliott> oklopol: adorable
20:17:19 <Phantom_Hoover> That's... complicated.
20:17:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wait I still have oko on ignore.
20:17:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WOULD IT DESTROY THE EARTH OR NOT
20:17:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Fixed.
20:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone paste me what he's said lately.
20:17:55 <elliott> Nothing interesting because he sucks lol
20:18:18 <oklopol> i actually do like sucking
20:18:29 <Gregor> `addquote <oklopol> i actually do like sucking
20:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And the white hole issue is unresolved AFAIK.
20:18:32 <HackEgo> 375) <oklopol> i actually do like sucking
20:18:43 <oklopol> :(
20:18:46 <oklopol> sad time
20:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way half the quotes are accidental innuendo.
20:18:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THE BEST KIND OF QUOTE
20:19:00 <elliott> `quote
20:19:01 <elliott> `quote
20:19:01 <elliott> `quote
20:19:01 <elliott> `quote
20:19:01 <elliott> `quote
20:19:02 <elliott> `quote
20:19:02 <HackEgo> 207) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
20:19:02 <HackEgo> 234) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs.
20:19:02 <HackEgo> 203) <calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
20:19:03 <HackEgo> 199) <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
20:19:03 <elliott> `quote
20:19:04 <HackEgo> 114) <vadim> it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone
20:19:05 <HackEgo> 96) <Warrigal> I cannot eat meat that isn't flat.
20:19:05 <HackEgo> 42) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
20:19:23 <oklopol> lol Phantom_Hoover likes doing logs
20:19:41 <elliott> warrigal performs cunnilingus on flat women
20:19:44 <elliott> or
20:19:47 <elliott> fellatio on flat men
20:19:52 <elliott> i guess works better
20:20:00 <elliott> PH wants to reduce the human genome with inbreeding
20:20:04 <oklopol> is warrigal a pedophile?
20:20:09 <elliott> yes.
20:20:17 <tswett> Why did I say that?
20:20:23 <elliott> because you're a paedophile
20:20:33 <elliott> `quote 97
20:20:34 <HackEgo> 97 \ 97) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
20:20:40 <elliott> lol at how that number is wrong now
20:20:49 <oklopol> `quote 124
20:20:50 <HackEgo> 124 \ 124) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without
20:20:54 <elliott> LIES
20:21:04 <elliott> hm why that "foo \" in front
20:21:05 <ais523> without what?
20:21:06 <elliott> `url bin/quote
20:21:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
20:21:16 <elliott> oh, duh
20:21:26 <ais523> `quote the
20:21:27 <HackEgo> 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 10) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? \ 11) <Lil`Cube> wouldn't that be considered pedophilia? <Quas_NaArt>
20:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I assume it's searching.
20:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote 1
20:21:44 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
20:21:45 <elliott> i need an and sign
20:21:47 <ais523> note that none of those quotes actually contain the word "the"
20:21:55 <ais523> not visibly, anyway
20:22:01 <Gregor> ais523: <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws.
20:22:05 <elliott> ais523: "o THE rmatt"
20:22:10 <elliott> can i have an and sign plz
20:22:15 <ais523> elliott: for 10, indeed, that's not the word the
20:22:21 <ais523> I can't even see an embedded the for 5, though
20:22:22 <elliott> `run sed -i 's|2>/dev/null|>/dev/null 2>\&1|' bin/quote
20:22:23 <HackEgo> No output.
20:22:24 <elliott> `quote 9
20:22:25 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
20:22:27 <elliott> yay
20:22:27 <ais523> ah, "them"
20:22:33 <elliott> `quote \bthe\b
20:22:34 <HackEgo> 16) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 26) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is
20:25:18 <ais523> err, wow
20:25:24 <ais523> I just did sudo umount -l /
20:25:31 <ais523> and the only apparent effect was that /dev/sda1 stopped existing
20:26:07 <elliott> ais523: well, that's one way to remount read-only
20:26:17 <elliott> ais523: it's lazy, so it won't unmount until all refs disappear
20:26:18 <elliott> i.e. never
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20:26:23 <elliott> you can remount immediately, though
20:26:31 <elliott> but you'd have to manually recreate /dev/sda[one]
20:26:34 <elliott> using mknod
20:26:43 <ais523> ah
20:26:48 <ais523> also, what is up with your number keys?
20:26:55 <ais523> I thought you were joking when you said they weren't working, in Agora
20:27:15 <elliott> ais523: they literally aren't working
20:27:15 <ais523> also, /why/ would /dev/sda1 stop existing upon doing that?
20:27:21 <elliott> and who knows, udev sucks
20:27:24 <ais523> as in, you press them and nothing happens?
20:27:30 <elliott> yes. one to eight. 9 and 0 work.
20:27:35 <elliott> i suspect it is one portion of the keyboard matrix.
20:27:38 <elliott> that has been damaged
20:27:42 <ais523> yep, sounds like a broken wire or something
20:28:00 <elliott> I'm going to backup, wipe the drive, and send it off to Apple
20:28:07 <elliott> they'll almost certainly just send me a new one
20:28:15 <elliott> as I'm pretty sure getting at the keyboard controller on a MacBook Air is downright impossible
20:28:25 <ais523> why wipe the drive? so they don't get to see your data?
20:28:37 <elliott> ais523: well, right now it boots into Linux by default.
20:28:43 <ais523> ah
20:28:50 <ais523> you can get 2, 3, and 5 via tab-complete on my name, at least
20:28:50 <elliott> even if that doesn't void the warranty, it'd sure as hell confuse them
20:29:02 <elliott> also, it does seem like a fairly reasonable privacy measure to take
20:29:10 <elliott> especially as they'll copy whatever to the new one
20:29:17 <elliott> and they'd probably mess up a non-trivial partition table
20:29:21 <elliott> which would just create more work for me fixing it up
20:32:50 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't it be easier to just move the hdd?
20:32:56 <Vorpal> or ssd
20:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Suggest we all provide elliott with a digit.
20:32:58 <Vorpal> as it may be
20:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately:
20:33:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Not gonna feed the troll.
20:33:28 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:33:40 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to no0123456789.
20:33:41 <Vorpal> elliott, actually my question was in ernest, why would apple not just move the ssd over, should be cheaper for them
20:33:51 <elliott> Oh, them.
20:34:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Because the SSD chips are printed on to the motherboard.
20:34:07 <elliott> They may technically be detachable, but it wouldn't be pretty.
20:34:15 <ais523> Vorpal: do you have any idea how to set all a running system's filesystems to readonly, apart from /dev/shm/
20:34:20 <ais523> s/\/$/?/
20:34:24 <elliott> ais523: you unmounted /, right?
20:34:26 <ais523> preferably in a way that doesnt' cause it to crash?
20:34:26 <elliott> recreate sda[one]
20:34:28 <elliott> and mount it readonly
20:34:31 <elliott> that will work
20:34:32 <elliott> since / is no longer busy
20:34:35 <elliott> or anything
20:34:36 <ais523> elliott: yes, I recreated sda1
20:34:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Because the SSD chips are printed on to the motherboard. <-- oh
20:34:42 <ais523> but trying to mount / says it's already mounted
20:34:43 <elliott> ais523: mount -o ro /dev/sda[one] /
20:34:46 <elliott> hmm
20:34:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I was not aware
20:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, dammit I provided you with the numbers at GREAT PERSONAL EXPENSE
20:34:56 <elliott> ais523: umount -fl //
20:35:00 <elliott> erm only one /
20:35:05 <elliott> the force might help beforehand
20:35:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THANK YOU
20:35:32 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: yes, I recreated sda1 <ais523> but trying to mount / says it's already mounted <-- what are you doing?
20:35:40 <ais523> gah, I just screwed up screen somehow
20:35:41 <elliott> <ais523> Vorpal: do you have any idea how to set all a running system's filesystems to readonly, apart from /dev/shm/
20:35:47 <elliott> reading comprehension
20:35:47 <Vorpal> ah
20:35:50 <ais523> Vorpal: trying to set the filesystem of a virtual machine to readonly
20:35:50 <elliott> ais523: why are you trying to do this anyway?
20:36:01 <Vorpal> ais523, hm... mount -o ro,remount / ?
20:36:06 <elliott> Vorpal: ...
20:36:08 <ais523> elliott: so you can rewind just by restoring memory, rather than having to handle the disk as well
20:36:09 <Vorpal> ais523, and same for all the other ones
20:36:11 <elliott> yeah, that's not the first thing we tried
20:36:22 <ais523> Vorpal: "/ is busy"
20:36:36 <Vorpal> ais523, check with lsof to find out what process uses it
20:36:44 <elliott> Vorpal: apart from EVERYTHING?
20:36:45 <elliott> ais523: ok, what if you used switch_root?
20:36:51 <elliott> oh wait
20:36:53 <elliott> WARNING: switch_root removes recursively all files and directories on the current root filesystem.
20:36:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well I assume you are in single user mode? doing it from X is unlikely to work
20:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: one: ais523, not me
20:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it is meant for initramfs
20:37:15 <elliott> two: what a stupid asumption
20:37:17 <elliott> assumption
20:37:21 <Vorpal> oh right
20:37:32 <ais523> elliott: wait, why would a command have an option to do an rm -rf --no-preserve-root /?
20:37:38 <ais523> apart from rm, I mean
20:37:43 <ais523> and it needs three
20:37:44 <elliott> ais523: meant for initramfs, like Vorpal said
20:37:50 <elliott> after creating the real root
20:38:07 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, all the processes on the system are using /
20:38:13 <Vorpal> ais523, the reason is so that the space on the tmpfs that the initramfs makes up can be reclaimed
20:38:13 <elliott> ais523: here's an idea
20:38:16 <elliott> ais523: use a bind mount
20:38:24 <Vorpal> ais523, writing?
20:38:28 <ais523> elliott: how would that help?
20:38:31 <elliott> ais523: mount sda[one] read-only in ~/foo, unmount super-lazy /
20:38:34 <elliott> ais523: bind ~/foo to /
20:38:37 <Vorpal> ais523, read only use doesn't matter
20:38:43 <elliott> notice you are suddenly :SO HIGH:
20:38:46 <Vorpal> ais523, btw why are you doing this?
20:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think bind mounts nest
20:39:13 <elliott> <Vorpal> ais523, btw why are you doing this? <ais523> elliott: so you can rewind just by restoring memory, rather than having to handle the disk as well
20:39:20 <Vorpal> oh
20:39:26 <ais523> $ sudo umount -fl / \ umount: /: not mounted \ $ sudo mount -o ro / \ mount: /dev/sda1 already mounted or / busy \ mount: according to mtab, /dev/sda1 is already mounted on /
20:39:37 <ais523> go go mount!
20:39:59 <ais523> for bonus points, I found a command that makes sda1 readonly (the actual device), but it seems to be a no-op
20:40:12 <elliott> ais523: modify mtab
20:40:12 <ais523> even when I made a 2MB file, in order to get around potential caching problems
20:40:25 <Vorpal> ais523, if this doesn't work out, you might want to check out snapshots in lvm. they are COW, and destroying a branch is quick (just discard the copied data)
20:40:31 <elliott> ais523: delete the sda[one] line
20:40:32 <elliott> try again
20:40:33 <elliott> :)
20:40:39 <ais523> elliott: same error, without the "according to mtab"
20:40:52 <elliott> ais523: unmount /proc, create a /proc directory, copy mtab to /proc/monuts
20:40:53 <elliott> mounts
20:40:56 <ais523> that was inevitable, surely
20:41:05 <ais523> elliott: that's... brilliantly evil
20:41:06 <elliott> WIZARDRY AT MY FINGERTIPS
20:41:14 <elliott> ais523: I think it's probably the syscall itself failing, but worth a shot :D
20:41:20 <ais523> $ sudo umount /proc
20:41:21 <ais523> umount: /proc: not mounted
20:41:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: unmount /proc, create a /proc directory, copy mtab to /proc/monuts <-- aieee!
20:41:24 <elliott> lol
20:41:26 <elliott> just do it manually then
20:41:28 <elliott> sudo rm /proc/mounts
20:41:32 <elliott> sudo cp /etc/mtab /proc/mounts
20:41:42 <ais523> indeed, /proc is an empty directory
20:42:01 <ais523> but same error even after I put a file in it
20:42:06 <elliott> hmm
20:42:12 <elliott> you have a c compiler?
20:42:41 <ais523> I think so, but this is getting increasingly insane
20:42:45 <Vorpal> ais523, you could edit /etc/fstab to mount stuff readonly. And remove any remounting to rw from the system startup scripts. Then reboot.
20:42:47 <Vorpal> that would work
20:42:47 <ais523> are you going to suggest just calling the syscall by hand?
20:42:55 <elliott> MNT_FORCE (since Linux 2.1.116)
20:42:55 <elliott> Force unmount even if busy. This can cause data loss. (Only for NFS mounts.)
20:42:55 <elliott> MNT_DETACH (since Linux 2.4.11)
20:42:55 <elliott> Perform a lazy unmount: make the mount point unavailable for new accesses, and actually perform the unmount when the mount point ceases to be busy.
20:42:55 <elliott> MNT_EXPIRE (since Linux 2.6.8)
20:42:56 <ais523> Vorpal: that involves a reboot, which defeats the point of the exercise
20:42:58 <elliott> Mark the mount point as expired. If a mount point is not currently in use, then an initial call to umount2() with this flag fails with the error EAGAIN, but
20:43:01 <elliott> marks the mount point as expired. The mount point remains expired as long as it isn't accessed by any process. A second umount2() call specifying MNT_EXPIRE
20:43:04 <elliott> unmounts an expired mount point. This flag cannot be specified with either MNT_FORCE or MNT_DETACH.
20:43:06 <Vorpal> ais523, what exactly *is* the exercise?
20:43:07 <elliott> ais523: try doing
20:43:09 <elliott> umount[two] with all those flags
20:43:11 <elliott> then again
20:43:13 <elliott> with the same flags
20:43:15 <elliott> ais523: then try mounting with the mount tool
20:43:16 <ais523> Vorpal: making the FS readonly on a running system
20:43:19 <elliott> note: the mount binary itself may disappear
20:43:20 <ais523> it really shouldn't be this hard
20:43:27 <Vorpal> ais523, go to single user mode, you can do it then
20:43:39 <ais523> just set the runlevel to 1 with telinit?
20:43:55 <Vorpal> mmm that should work
20:44:02 <Vorpal> ais523, in fact you can do it as long as nothing has anything open for writing on that partition
20:44:08 <elliott> ais523: can i have ssh access, this sounds like great fun
20:44:14 <ais523> elliott: not mine to give
20:44:14 <Vorpal> ais523, lsof will tell you if it is open for reading or writing
20:44:19 <elliott> ais523: lame
20:44:20 <ais523> well, I did sudo telinit 1
20:44:26 <ais523> and now it doesn't respond to the keyboard
20:44:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]).
20:45:01 <fizzie> ais523: Have errors=remount-ro on, and then force some sort of an error on the filesystem?
20:45:12 <ais523> fizzie: I was beginning to think along those lines
20:45:25 <Vorpal> ais523, uh?
20:45:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is ext-specific isn't it?
20:45:55 <elliott> fizzie: I was thinking that myself too
20:45:59 <elliott> since I've had my FS rendered read-only before
20:46:06 <elliott> ais523: even on a vt?
20:47:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. Well, at least ext2 and such support it; some others might too for all I know.
20:48:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was thinking about jfs, xfs and so on
20:48:19 <Vorpal> speaking of which, is brtfs any good yet?
20:48:33 <Vorpal> (good implies stable here)
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20:49:29 <elliott> It's controlled by Oracle, so it'll never be (mentally) stable.
20:53:42 <Gregor> "Btrfs supports a very limited form of transaction without ACID semantics: rollback is not possible, only one transaction may run at a time and transactions are not atomic with respect to storage."
20:53:42 <Gregor> wtf
20:53:58 <Gregor> In what way is that transactions at all :P
20:54:43 <ais523> haha
20:54:52 <ais523> isn't that a semaphore?
20:54:55 <ais523> rather than a transaction?
20:55:05 <Gregor> Is it even a semaphore? Sounds like a mutex :P
20:55:07 <ais523> the two concepts are rather different
20:55:12 <elliott> yeah but if Oracle says it's a transaction
20:55:14 <elliott> who will doubt :D
20:55:21 <ais523> Gregor: a mutex is a boolean semaphore, isn't it?
20:55:25 <Gregor> ais523: Yuh
20:59:56 <Gregor> `run echo 'foo() { echo $1 }; foo bar' | csh
20:59:57 <HackEgo> No output.
20:59:57 <fizzie> There is this much-circulated btrfs discussion, https://lkml.org/lkml/2010/6/18/144 -- but that's almost a year old and I make no claims to the truthfulness of it.
21:00:02 <Gregor> `run which csh
21:00:04 <HackEgo> No output.
21:00:09 <Gregor> Of course not, why the hell would I have csh :)
21:07:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:07:15 <fizzie> "if you're on 2.6.32 or older
21:07:15 <fizzie> You should consider upgrading. The error behaviour of Btrfs [when running out of disk space] has significantly improved, such that you get a nice proper ENOSPC instead of an OOPS or worse."
21:09:22 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/gv1xy/urgent_need_to_know_right_fucking_now_is_it_safe/
21:10:17 <Phantom_Hoover> OK
21:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> This is the Best Reddit Thread.
21:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Octopodes are now my favourite animals.
21:11:42 <elliott> Professional Octopodes of the World.
21:12:22 <oklopol> is it a thread about fucking octopodes safely?
21:12:43 <oklopol> oh even better
21:13:22 <elliott> xD
21:15:15 <oklopol> i recently heard an octopus dies of boredom if you don't give it toys
21:15:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:15:47 <oklopol> (a friend owns some sort of aquarium shop)
21:17:12 <elliott> that is so sad.
21:17:37 <oklopol> well, sure, on the other hand it's pretty damn cool
21:20:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you couldn't die of boredom.
21:20:55 <Phantom_Hoover> On account of suddenly realising "Jesus my heart's not beating", which is interesting.
21:20:59 <elliott> X-D
21:20:59 <oklopol> i'm not an octopus, i'm an okLopOL
21:21:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "So what's the last interesting thing to happen to you?" "Uh, my heart stopped beating."
21:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god there's an obnoxious republican on 10 O'Clock Live saying that the figurehead of state should be elected.
21:27:08 <Phantom_Hoover> This is so hilariously stupid.
21:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> JADE GOODY MEETS OBAMA
21:35:11 <ais523> I bet the Queen would be elected in the UK if we had a figurehead election
21:35:27 <ais523> pretty much everyone agrees she makes a great figurehead, the only real complaint is how much she costs
21:35:34 <ais523> although she probably brings in more money than that in tourism
21:36:12 <ais523> apparently, one of the princesses lost all her money doing something or other years ago, and made it back by going on American chat shows; I'm not sure of the details
21:37:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the Queen is fine, the problem is that Charles clearly has ideas above his station.
21:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. that he matters as anything more than a reader of speeches.
21:38:20 <ais523> he is heir to the throne, technically
21:38:28 <elliott> no shit
21:38:28 <ais523> although people keep forgetting and assuming Prince William is
21:38:36 <elliott> they do?
21:38:39 <ais523> yes
21:38:48 <Phantom_Hoover> William *is* heir to the throne, just not the first.
21:39:10 <elliott> hmm, it looks like charles is unlikely to die before the queen
21:39:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, he's a homeopath, so if he gets a disease...
21:39:49 <elliott> xD
21:40:23 <oklopol> what if william and charles die?
21:40:28 <oklopol> and the current guys
21:40:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Then it'll go to Harry.
21:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The Nazi.
21:40:35 <oklopol> what if he dies
21:40:38 <elliott> what if EVERYONE dies
21:40:42 <oklopol> not everyone
21:40:43 <elliott> simultaneously
21:40:44 <oklopol> just those guys
21:40:50 <oklopol> and whoever Phantom_Hoover says next
21:40:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, then you just keep going back.
21:41:06 <oklopol> back?
21:41:08 <Gregor> They have a line of succession thousands long.
21:41:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What if the entire Royal family goes extinct.
21:41:13 <elliott> ENTIRE.
21:41:19 <elliott> Apart from the fact that we'd all be dead.
21:41:20 <Vorpal> oklopol, yes, the TARDIS was an UK invention wasn't it?
21:41:24 <oklopol> ah okay that's what i've understood
21:41:30 <oklopol> "<Gregor> They have a line of succession thousands long."
21:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, impossible, since there is no well-defined Royal family.
21:57:30 <KingOfKarlsruhe> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXWVFJg1Ve0
22:00:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:05:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:11:20 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:14:56 <Vorpal> night →
22:16:11 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott Clear out your goddamn MemoServ inbox already.
22:16:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:18:03 <Vorpal> <KingOfKarlsruhe> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXWVFJg1Ve0 <-- I don't know the language, what is it about?
22:18:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, watch it.
22:18:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It transcends language.
22:18:19 <Vorpal> done at 02:19
22:18:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, all I can tell so far is that they are standing with something strange at a toilet and arguing
22:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It becomes clear in a few seconds.
22:19:31 <Vorpal> wha
22:20:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was in that thing
22:20:18 <Vorpal> that just blew up the toilet
22:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Explosives, you imbecile.
22:21:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what sort is what I meant
22:21:46 <Phantom_Hoover> How would I know, I'm not an explosives expert.
22:21:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh right
22:21:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought you were
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22:23:32 <KingOfKarlsruhe> Vorpal: his toilet is congested
22:23:50 <Vorpal> KingOfKarlsruhe, and what was that he put in then?
22:25:57 <Phantom_Hoover> KingOfKarlsruhe, wait, is that why he did it?
22:26:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Lesser men would have called a plumber.
22:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> By which I mean men who understand pressure.
22:26:49 <KingOfKarlsruhe> Vorpal: in german we call it "Vogelschreck", it is used to chase away birds
22:30:02 <Vorpal> KingOfKarlsruhe, no clue what that is
22:30:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's a small explosive. You really suck at this.
22:31:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, suck at what? explosives? yes
22:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Suck at basic inference.
22:32:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well it doesn't answer anything really. Like what it is made of
22:32:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which is what I'm interested in
22:33:10 <Vorpal> well, night →
22:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, I know now, but I'm not going to tell you because it took me about 30 seconds.
22:34:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, we have Google, you know.
22:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It even translates.
22:44:06 <Gregor> Subtract and branch if zero is TC, right?
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23:09:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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23:38:00 <Sgeo> There may be reopening!
23:38:05 <Sgeo> And no one, not even me, cares.
23:38:09 <zzo38> Can we make the variant of [[Muxcomp]] that uses internal CPU registers, some of which are shared between execution units?
23:39:25 <Gregor> People who use twitter: What's twitterese for "Send answers by tagging @whoever"?
23:40:37 <Sgeo> If you're @whoever, then probably "reply" or "mention"
23:40:44 <Sgeo> Maybe
23:40:50 <zzo38> Do they have any documentation about such thigns?
23:41:13 <Gregor> Sgeo: Like "reply @whoever"?
23:41:16 <Sgeo> zzo38, it's more a cultural thing than a formal thing. Yet, these days Internet culture does have documentation *mindboggle*
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23:41:35 <Sgeo> Gregor, I guess. But then what if they want to put a . in front... I don't know
23:42:03 <Gregor> ... what IF they want to put a . in front?
23:42:21 <Sgeo> As in, they want everyone to see it, not just you
23:42:39 <Gregor> That goes at the start of the message, it's unrelated :P
23:42:42 <Gregor> Oh
23:42:47 <Gregor> Oh I see what you mean
23:42:49 <Gregor> I don't care :P
23:51:59 <Gregor> How 'bout "Answer@CaptainHats"?
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