00:00:22 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 00:08:50 -!- elliott has joined. 00:11:53 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:37:08 -!- tswett has changed nick to tswett_56. 00:37:19 Today, I learned my rank. It's 56. 00:38:44 Rank in what? 00:38:54 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_346126. 00:39:09 My Activeworlds citizen number is 346126 00:40:08 My rank in #jbopre, according to djanatyn. 00:40:35 What on earth is that thing. 00:40:43 Something Lojban-related, presumably. 00:40:48 Yeah. 00:40:50 jbopre = lobjo prenu 00:40:53 It means "lojbanist", it seems. 00:40:54 = lojban dude 00:40:54 Don't worry. I hate Lojban. 00:40:57 Esperanto is far better. 00:41:05 *lojbo 00:41:17 oklopol: paste reactions plz 00:41:18 esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea 00:41:26 `addquote esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea 00:41:30 380) esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea 00:41:47 disclaimer: i don't actually know what esperato is like 00:41:49 Yo puedo diarrhea hablar en diarrhea esperanto. 00:42:06 i can diarrhea speak in diarrhea esperanto? 00:42:07 oklopol: lo estoy haciendo correctamente? 00:42:09 HAVE THERE BEEN REACTIONS 00:42:28 this is being done correctly 00:42:36 ? 00:42:42 Excelente. Gracias por tu ayuda. 00:42:48 Y tu marque de pregunta. 00:42:54 excellent, thank you my sweetheart 00:43:03 and you mark the question 00:43:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:43:22 is ayuda something to do with listening 00:43:34 why would it be 00:43:36 That would be "Y tú marques la pregunta". 00:43:40 "Ayuda" is "help". 00:43:43 ah 00:43:49 "auta" in finnish 00:43:50 :D 00:44:08 CRAZY STUFF 00:44:28 Y ahora puedo usar acentos. Vóy á ponérlos pór tóda párte. 00:45:05 So, about that Finnish. 00:45:07 and now i can use accents. i'm going to go to every party. 00:45:14 and you're pregnant on the mark 00:45:44 Voy a asistir a cada fiesta. Y eres embarazado en el marque. 00:45:51 i actually even understood the word pregunta in spanish speech today 00:45:55 small world 00:46:03 I'm pretty sure that in Spanish, "atender" is "to assist" and "asistir" is "to attend". 00:46:14 Which makes sense, if you think about it. 00:46:33 i'm going to assist in the creation of an awesome party. and you are so embarrassed in the marks! 00:47:08 elliott: comments 00:47:09 [03:43:59] Hi, elliott. Bye, elliott. 00:47:09 [03:44:10] Meet elliott, whose rank is, like, 81 or something. 00:47:09 [03:46:18] yeah elliott is a famous bisexual 00:47:17 my rank is one 00:47:18 bitch 00:47:18 fizzie 00:47:20 I have 00:47:24 An important 00:47:26 don't disturb the translator 00:47:27 Question. 00:47:34 Voy a atender a la creación de una fiesta excelente. ¡Y tú tienes tantas vergüenzas en las marques! 00:47:41 elliott: no, your rank is 2 at the highest. 00:47:49 MY RANK IS ZERO 00:47:58 -!- mad has joined. 00:47:59 tswett_56, yes, everyone knows my rank is -infinity. 00:48:16 From now on, whenever possible, I shall write every word in suomi. 00:48:22 As you can tell, I don't know very many suomen words. 00:48:27 no, tu ranco es en las maximos dos! 00:48:41 las maximos 00:48:56 Tu ranco es dos a lo máximo, I think. 00:49:04 :D 00:49:08 seriously, ranco? 00:49:12 fizzie 00:49:15 Please 00:49:17 I don't know. That might not mean "rank" like that. 00:49:24 al? 00:49:34 Here we go. "Word" is "sana", so... 00:49:39 Suomen sanat or something. 00:49:45 suomen sanat = finnish words 00:49:46 mad: "al" in Spanish is a contraction for "a el". 00:49:47 suomen insanat 00:49:53 Excellent! 00:50:08 Now if I can just learn the rest of Finnish. 00:50:10 al hambra 00:50:20 I mean, the rest suomen. :P 00:50:28 suomen rest 00:50:35 The suomen rest, then. 00:50:39 :D 00:51:05 you forgot to translate "the" into the correct "" 00:51:11 i'd actually say loput suomen kielestä, "the ends from finland's language" 00:51:33 Well, it's "the rest", I figure. 00:51:44 loput? certainly 00:51:55 oh 00:52:02 a bit loopy 00:52:02 you meant the because you have rest 00:52:19 I have to opetella loput suomen kielestä, or summat. 00:52:34 :D 00:52:54 how does suomi decline? 00:52:55 this reminds me about a norwegian joke about how the french pronounce "høst" (norw. for autumn) 00:52:56 Mun pitää 00:53:09 Pitää. Is that a partitive noun? 00:53:14 eust? 00:53:18 no, it's have to 00:53:23 Oh, right. 00:53:28 h is silent, st is silent at the end of words, and ø doesn't exist, so: "" 00:53:36 but you use "my" with it 00:54:01 oerjan: it's ts that's silent at the end of words 00:54:12 Yeah, what's the genitive of minä? 00:54:15 not st? 00:54:23 minun, mun, meikän, meitsin, meikäläisen, miun, mu 00:54:28 at least 00:54:32 That's too many. 00:54:39 in all seriousness you write minun, usually say mun 00:54:40 I can't think of a french word ending in st 00:54:41 hm i guess it's not silent in ouest 00:54:49 iirc 00:54:51 or proust 00:54:54 elliott: it turns out your ranking is 82.5. 00:54:58 IT IS INFINITY. 00:55:11 Minun pitää opetella loput suomen kielestä, then? 00:55:17 tswett_56: yes 00:55:27 mad: it's silent in "est", though :D 00:55:37 oerjan: some dialects might say "oues" but it's variable 00:55:39 Erinomainen. 00:55:42 *sta 00:55:44 It has much erinoma. 00:55:53 oerjan: if you mean to be instead of east yeah :D 00:56:17 I ought to learn how to conjugate some common stuff. 00:56:32 certainly 00:56:39 Minä on... is it on? There was some nice and simple way to conjugate this stuff. 00:56:49 minä olen 00:57:10 The negation verb is conjugated ei, et, en in the singular present, right? 00:57:13 olla => olen olet on olemme olette ovat 00:57:31 And then if I can remember that one word... 00:57:41 en, et, ei, emme, ette, eivät 00:57:48 Koira, that's it. 00:57:53 Minä olen koira. 00:58:01 niin olet 00:58:05 man 00:58:18 I might have to come up with a new morphological type for my conlang :( 00:58:46 Sinä olet koira? 00:58:51 minä en ole koira. 00:59:12 elliott on koira. 00:59:18 I'll have to group a lot of inflections together into a single syllable 00:59:19 And I should learn the connegatives, I guess. 00:59:22 tswett_56: Your mom. 00:59:27 dunno if any real language does that 00:59:41 "oletko sinä koira" is how you ask if i'm a dog, "sinä olet koira?" works just like "you are a dog?" works in english toh 00:59:42 What's "mom" in Finnish, then? 00:59:42 *tho 00:59:51 tswett_56: äiti 00:59:56 mad: um any indoeuropean languages with intact case systems? 01:00:09 Midun äiti estas... drat, I went into Esperanto. 01:00:15 Midun äiti on koira. 01:00:36 case, number and gender usually give just one syllable combined 01:00:46 tswett_56: lol 01:00:53 even oerjan can correct that sentence 01:01:07 oerjan: eh, yeah, that's not quite false 01:01:11 Sweet, the connegatives here are all the same. 01:01:31 Minä ei ole koira. Sinä et ole koira. elliott en ole koira. 01:01:35 mad: well not one syllable in all combinations 01:01:38 oerjan: would you please? :P 01:01:40 I DON'T RESPOND TO PUNGS IN THIS CHANEL 01:01:40 tswett_56: you have those backwards 01:01:46 en, et, ei 01:02:00 I kinda want to combine verb subject/object/transitivity/copula/benefactive/locative, roll them together into one verbal prefix 01:02:03 tswett_56: erm what you don't believe oklopol do you? 01:02:24 oerjan: of course I do. He outranks you. 01:02:36 oklopol: are you saying en is first-person and ei is third-? 01:02:42 Oh. Yes. 01:02:47 well it's minun 01:02:58 mad: well you have a problem with information density, you could of course have a lot of phonemes to help... 01:03:01 also my mom is minun äitini or mun äiti 01:03:10 or mun äitini 01:03:25 Minä en ole koira. elliott ei ole koira. Minun äitini on koira. 01:03:31 oerjan: yeah was thinking of having lots of vowels and some tones but simple syllable structure 01:03:32 aivan oikein 01:03:35 i don't respond to pugs in this coco chanel 01:03:46 like, at least 14 vowels (if you count nasals) 01:04:07 Ah, -ni is that possessive suffix thing. 01:04:25 Can I just sai "äitini on koira"? 01:04:29 s/i/y/ 01:04:36 should be able to get a few thousand syllables 01:04:46 tswett_56: yes 01:04:53 And now I need some more nouns, I think. 01:04:58 prolly wouldn't say that in speech tho 01:05:09 you'd say mun äiti on koira 01:05:09 Minä olen kuva. 01:05:15 the real problem is not information density (with syllables that huge), it's coming up with a morphology that doesn't blow up 01:05:17 and mä oon kuva 01:05:49 Finnish either has a perfect speech-writing correspondence or the worst one imaginable. 01:05:49 the syllables are huge and not particularly flexible so it's really hard to do lots of affixation like agglutinative language 01:06:12 elliott: sinä olet kuva. 01:06:28 rather perfect, or at least consistent 01:06:37 and afaik most real languages with this kind of phonologic systems (huge syllables but simple syllable structure) are ultra isolating 01:07:07 so if I want affixes I absolutely have to roll them together into simple syllablees 01:07:11 "How do you pronounce 'olen'?" "Oh, that's pronounced 'oon'." "How about 'minä'?" "That's 'mä'." 01:07:34 no you pronounce "olen" as "olen" 01:07:42 and you pronounce "minä" as "minä" 01:07:51 is it "mineh"? 01:07:58 mad: you know 14 vowels is fewer than what swedish and norwegian has if you include length. but neither has much heaping on of inflections. 01:08:03 ä is the vowel in bad 01:08:26 oerjan: but those languages have flexible syllable structure 01:08:37 * tswett_56 looks for other verbs. 01:08:49 Syödä! 01:08:51 well yes. 01:08:57 oerjan: also they cheat (they combine with length) 01:08:57 kuva syö koiran 01:09:00 ;) 01:09:17 The picture eats the dog. 01:09:20 kuvalla on koiran syömisestä huonoja kokemuksia 01:09:31 LENGTH IS A RESPECTABLE QUALITY 01:09:41 Something is dog something something something? 01:09:45 yeah I might put in length too, I'm not sure 01:09:52 depends on how it interplays with tone 01:09:56 huonoja kokemuksi a= bad experiences 01:10:01 * 01:10:06 Ä. 01:10:20 Picture is dog something bad experiences? 01:10:30 Is "koiran" the accusative or the genitive here? 01:11:03 But there's a huge chance I go with something like /a e i o u @ M/ then add probably at least /2 y/, maybe /E O/, maybe-perhaps more 01:11:05 the picture has bad experiences on eating dogs 01:11:10 plus nasal versions of like every vowel 01:11:14 mad: also they have pitch accents :) 01:11:23 "on" 01:11:25 lul 01:11:27 Okay, kuvalla must be... is that another genitive? 01:11:39 well that's adessive 01:11:47 oerjan: ha yeah, it's like lots of falling tones everywhere :D 01:11:48 but here it's with "on" 01:11:53 kuvalla on = kuva has 01:12:07 Adessive... does that generally mean "at"? 01:12:20 that or other stuff 01:12:25 on top of 01:12:37 * tswett_56 nods. 01:12:52 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 01:13:06 And then syömisestä is some eating thing.. 01:13:46 syömi looks like some weird umlauted version of suomi... 01:13:49 syöminen = eating 01:14:03 well y = ü 01:14:09 That looks like some weird umlauted version of "suominen". 01:14:15 What the heck is a "suominen", anyway? 01:14:22 A miniature Finland? 01:14:37 :D 01:14:50 why would you know that's a diminutive suffix 01:15:08 I noticed that Finns' surnames mean stuff, so I looked them up. 01:15:15 bonus points if you know less used diminutive suffices 01:15:16 I found that most of them describe places and end in either la or nen. 01:15:30 I know about three suffixes. :P 01:17:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:17:33 subject/object/transitivity/copula/benefactive gives around ~70 combinations 01:18:16 Anyway, where were we... 01:18:17 If I separate animate/inanimate gender more then the combinations go up a bit 01:18:18 -!- atrapado has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:18:31 And if I include locative then the combinations double 01:18:56 arithmetic sucks 01:19:03 "Kuvalla on koiran syömisestä huonoja kokemuksia". And "syöminen" is eating, so... I guess that's then declined. 01:20:04 yeah, stä = from 01:20:07 In the... elative? 01:20:23 At the picture is of a dog from eating . . . 01:20:29 What language is that? 01:20:36 Finns sure do milk these declensions for all they're worth, don't they. :P 01:20:39 Lymia: Finnish. 01:20:44 readtables 01:20:45 my friends 01:20:47 what is up with thems 01:20:47 lymia: finnlandificatish 01:20:53 ：＜ 01:20:56 finnlandificatish. the best language 01:20:58 Fennic. 01:21:12 the language of fennecs? 01:21:41 mad: stop reading my mind 01:21:48 And it looks like "huonoja" is the partitive plural, and so is "kokemus", so you've got "bad experience" in the partitive plural. 01:21:49 ha 01:22:08 everyone likes foxes 01:22:20 And I guess the partitive is what makes it "has had" or whatever instead of "is having" or "had at some point" or something. 01:22:46 How am I supposed to understand that. :| 01:23:03 " In the... elative?" yes 01:23:32 This sounds more complicated than Japanese! 01:23:33 >:( 01:23:53 lymia: at least they tell you who is doing what 01:24:04 japanese is like 01:24:04 Hauamaisapostuandastandat, äi? 01:24:23 helposti 01:24:37 [where] [when] [verb] [how the talker feels about it] [degree of politeness] 01:24:56 Help, O's tea? 01:24:57 notice the absence of subject or object 01:25:22 tswett_56: from "helppo" 01:25:28 easy 01:25:31 Oh, right. 01:25:50 Okay, on to more difficult stuff. 01:25:51 lymia: Case languages are crazy anyways 01:26:29 Look at that giant word. 01:26:30 D= 01:26:42 The Finnish for "okay, on to more difficult stuff" is "vaikealle", right? 01:26:53 Lymia: don't worry, "hauamaisapostuandastandat" isn't a real word. 01:27:06 tswett_56: no, you can't really say that 01:27:15 Lymia: hauamaisapostuandastandat is english 01:27:16 høyesterettsjustitiarius 01:27:32 "Yhdeksänkymmentäkahdeksan" is a real Finnish word, though. 01:27:46 "Yhdeksänkymmentäkahdeksan" is the Finnish for what, in Lojban, is "li sobi". 01:28:02 loljban 01:28:03 yhdeksällekymmenellekahdeksallekohan 01:28:09 And that Lojban is being slightly verbose. The base form is just "sobi"; "li" turns it into a DP. 01:28:23 what's the english translation 01:28:30 "Ninety-eight". 01:28:56 oklopol: what does that mean? "I wonder if I should run around a bit"? 01:28:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:29:20 quatre-vingt-dix-huit 01:29:29 tswett_56: it's the "-lle" plus "-kohan" of 98¨ 01:29:33 *98 01:29:50 My. 01:30:04 * Lymia thinks she will stick with learning Japanese.... 01:30:09 Shopata. 01:30:16 japanese is hard too 01:30:24 joo lähetää shoppaileen 01:30:29 Vaikea. 01:30:56 You don't mean lähettää, do you? 01:31:04 *vaikeaa 01:31:10 lähetää = lähdetään 01:31:13 japanese is like the hard part of chinese (kanji) + the hard part of turkic/mongolian (agglutinative, everything is in reverse order) 01:31:19 Oh, right, you use the partitive when yelling out adjectives. 01:31:27 no 01:31:34 No? 01:31:39 verbs don't have partitives 01:31:52 But vaikea is an adjective, isn't it? 01:31:59 oh sorry yeah aosidjfoierg 01:32:08 you are certainly correct 01:32:14 we use the partitive when yelling out adjectives 01:32:33 Erinomainen_PART. :P 01:32:43 is there any esoteric system that would be good for making music with? 01:32:47 like 01:32:47 Erinomaista. That declension sure makes sense. 01:32:51 generating audio 01:33:00 ihan vitun erinomaista 01:33:03 mad: Proce! 01:33:28 mad: Gregor was making something... don't know how esoteric it was 01:33:49 Vitun, vitun, vitun. 01:34:02 Vittu. Tuvin. 01:34:16 Tupa. Minä olen tupa. 01:34:28 oerjan: hmm 01:34:33 Minä olen tuvassa. 01:34:46 I have made nothing /esoteric/ in that area. 01:34:58 oerjan: I might just design an esoteric sound chip and write a VST emulating it 01:35:02 or something like that 01:35:22 the music esolangs i know about go _from_ music to program 01:35:34 Minä olen tuvassa koirin. 01:35:55 koirin means by using dogs 01:36:03 Of course it does. 01:36:06 mostly used for transportation 01:36:18 well yeah but there's a perfectly good koirineni 01:36:42 What's that one? 01:36:47 with my dogs 01:37:20 Is that koiri -ne -ni? 01:37:21 oerjan: right now in the music world, there's a problem of synths being too similar to each other 01:37:28 way too many subtractive synths 01:37:29 well, more like possessing my dogs 01:37:32 (filter based) 01:37:39 tswett_56: yes, koir -ine -ni 01:38:09 Mina omistan koirani. 01:38:18 Er, ä. 01:38:35 omistathan sinä 01:38:44 oerjan: they could really use some more original synths 01:39:00 so there's definitely something to do on that angle 01:39:11 mhm 01:41:18 but trying to design a soundchip is hard :D 01:41:45 Kuva... limsa. Koira kivi turri, turrin auto. 01:42:38 Minä en ole koira. Minä olen turri. elliott ei ole kivi. elliott on auto. 01:42:39 autotuunin 01:42:53 limsan kuva on koiralle liian vaikea 01:43:02 ei se ymmärrä sitä :( 01:43:17 /ototUwn/ 01:44:52 The soda-pop's picture is onto the dog too difficult... I have no idea what that deciphers to. 01:45:06 *for the dog 01:45:26 like 01:45:26 Too hard for the dog? 01:45:27 it doesn't decipher, finns really speak mostly in meaningless sentences 01:45:37 yes 01:45:37 Ah. I'll fit right in. 01:45:41 Limsa limsa limsa limsa limsa. 01:45:43 with lots of umlauts :D 01:45:53 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:45:57 Limsat kuvaan ei ole minä kuskasati. 01:46:08 mikä on kuskasati? 01:46:25 äännäännen minä oonnoonnen 01:46:36 En tiedä. 01:46:50 But it sounds Finnish. 01:46:58 certainly does 01:47:29 Almamaksilet. Äydäälisy. 01:47:44 those not so much 01:47:54 Yeah, they're not as good. 01:48:21 alma mater 01:49:03 Almamateri. 01:49:46 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:52:21 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 01:57:46 With wcc (16-bit) in the huge memory model, sizeof(size_t) != sizeof(void *). 01:57:54 lolfail, Watcom. 01:58:43 the com that makes you wat 01:59:05 the wat that makes you com 02:02:26 Gregor: that's perfectly admissable isn't it 02:02:32 i mean sixteen bit is fucked up 02:02:52 elliott: That's KINDA true, but I mean, come on sizeof(size_t) != sizeof(void *) >_< 02:03:00 The whole point of size_t is it's the size of a pointer :P 02:03:04 No it's not :P 02:03:11 Well yeah, it's "word size" 02:03:13 No? 02:03:20 It can hold the size of any object. That's all. 02:03:56 bleh I say. 02:03:58 Bleh. 02:04:15 I hate C. I hate it with love. 02:04:16 Says the guy who doesn't know the difference tween (void) and () ;DDD 02:04:25 YOU MAY BE ABLE TO CODE 02:04:28 BUT YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO OUT-PEDANT ME 02:04:39 I wonder if I could modify wcc to pretend like it's a 32-bit platform :P 02:04:52 And so Gregor enters the land of Reasonable and Sane Ideas. 02:05:05 Make ints and size_ts 32 bits, just never admit that there's a segment register goin' on here :P 02:05:33 I'm wondering after semi-accidentally realizing that GGGGC actually works on 16-bit. 02:06:57 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 02:07:00 Gregor: It ... shouldn't. 02:07:03 Can you break it, please? 02:07:07 8-D 02:07:25 Gregor: Does GMP even compile with sixteen-bit OpenWatcom. 02:07:27 what is GGGGC? 02:07:28 I can't even comprehend that. 02:07:35 elliott: I didn't try :P 02:07:37 ais523: My GC. 02:07:41 ais523: Gregor's Gregarious General Gorging Garbage Crap. 02:08:13 elliott: Gregarious will now be my new adjective when I advance to GGGGGC. 02:08:19 Gregor: Please never advance thuswise. 02:08:33 elliott: Y'know that's how I got to GGGGC, right? :P 02:08:35 G^omegaC 02:08:36 Gregor: Can you compact it to just GGC next time? :P 02:08:44 elliott: NEVER 02:08:59 Gregor: I liked the API a lot more when I thought GGC_ was stuff left over from the original GGC. 02:09:05 Like, you kept source-compatibility each time in that manner. 02:09:20 I didn't even keep source compatibility a little bit :P 02:09:31 The number of G's just indicates the publicness of the function X-D 02:09:41 That's even worse, to be honest :P 02:09:50 the last G will stand for Global, i take 02:10:02 no wait, Galactic 02:10:12 Ghastly 02:10:15 oerjan: None of the G's stand for either of those :P 02:10:26 Gregor: i mean the last one you eventually add 02:10:41 this is so super-linear it isn't even funny 02:10:41 Ah 02:11:01 Actually GGGGC is shaping out to be the lastish, at least for the time being. 02:11:12 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 02:11:13 GGC was a miserable failure, GGGC was tolerable but not fast. 02:11:29 Gregor: You just need to make it concurrent; GGGGCC. 02:11:39 elliott: TRUE! 02:11:49 Gregor: Eventually you'll compact all the acronyms down after getting tired of this shit, and it will become Gregor's Concurrent Collector. 02:11:54 Commonly known in programming circles as GCC. 02:12:08 >_> 02:12:10 In fact, GCC will replace its GC dependency with the GCC GC. 02:12:18 X-D 02:12:30 So the GCC GC will be GCC's GC. 02:12:40 People will refer to "The GCC GC, GCC's GC". 02:12:41 The hotspot GC is faster than GGGGC, but it's also not ~600 lines :P 02:13:00 Hotspot's GC just uses magic and unicorns. 02:13:10 And that might even matter if the rest of Java wasn't a steaming shitpile. 02:13:11 Hotspot's GC is fucking terrifying >_> 02:13:32 It's, like, the worst environment ever... with a GC from twenty years in the future. 02:13:49 win 18 02:13:59 coppro: you _know_ the punishment for that. 02:14:38 win 18? 02:14:42 oerjan: he forgot a / 02:14:55 hmm, i should port my little recursive descent routines from zepto.py 02:14:58 yes, i'm still writing zepto.c 02:14:59 god knows why 02:15:03 elliott: lol, gmp on 16-bit is seriously the best worst idea ever X-D 02:15:16 Gregor: SO SLOW 02:15:18 elliott: um still no connection 02:15:22 oerjan: irssi 02:15:29 aha 02:15:34 Gregor: Considering that gcc miscompiles gmp at the best of times, I very much doubt OpenWatcom will ever get it right ever :P 02:15:42 Although to be fair, gcc is a legendary piece of shit. 02:15:51 elliott: It worked fine 32-bit. 02:15:54 Wow. 02:15:56 elliott: Remember I got Fythe for DOS. 02:16:02 I know, I'm trying not to think about that. 02:16:03 (32-bit) 02:16:05 X-D 02:16:11 I want sixteen-bit Fythe :P 02:16:17 elliott: To make GMP not use its assembly routines (which was necessary for wcc386), you have to tell it --host=none-whatever. Pretty lols command line. 02:16:26 X-D 02:16:29 Whatever? 02:16:33 Please tell me the whatever is really necessary. 02:16:37 No :P 02:16:42 Either pc-linux-gnu or pc-msdos or, y'know, whatever. 02:16:47 the shit of legends 02:16:48 Gregor: You should try an eight-bit compiler. 02:16:49 For... 02:16:50 COMMODORE FYTHE 02:16:56 Yesssssssssssssss 02:17:09 Reading Plof system files from tape... 02:17:17 Testing bignums... 02:17:24 Whoops look at that, the number three used up all your memory 02:17:25 Aborting 02:17:44 LOAD "FYTHE",8,1 02:17:54 Oh god yes 02:22:18 Gregor: btw interior pointers are the besssssssst 02:22:33 elliott: Just say "no" to interior pointers :P 02:22:41 Gregor: But they''re intoxicating. 02:22:45 With two 's. 02:22:54 NIL = TAG(conssa(intern(strdup("NIL")), cons(NIL, NIL)), T_PAIR|T_SYMBOL); 02:22:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:23:01 Observe: Interior pointers, holding this stack of cards together. 02:23:36 "conssa" meaning "cons, but allocate the pair so that [and]pair->cdr is aligned with 0s, not necessarily the car; and return the pointer to the cdr". 02:23:45 This is used for NIL'S SUPREME OVERLAPPINGNESS :D 02:24:28 Gregor is in awe. 02:24:45 very zepto 02:24:58 monqy has it right. 02:25:08 elliott: So, how miserably slow is your GC? :P 02:25:28 * Sgeo_346126 ponders making an r5rs thingy in Picolisp 02:25:29 Gregor: 02:25:30 obj alloc() { 02:25:30 while (TAGOF(poolptr)) poolptr++; 02:25:30 obj ret = (obj)poolptr; 02:25:30 poolptr += 2; 02:25:30 return ret; 02:25:32 } 02:25:36 obj allocsa() { 02:25:38 while (TAGOF(poolptr+1)) poolptr++; 02:25:40 obj ret = (obj)poolptr; 02:25:42 poolptr += 2; 02:25:44 return ret; 02:25:46 elliott: That is an allocator. How fast is your GC? 02:25:46 } 02:25:48 Gregor: It's so fast. Conservative, mind you. 02:25:50 But fast. 02:25:52 That loop never even RUNS on sixty-four bit architectuers. 02:25:53 architectures. 02:25:56 Gregor: That _is_ my GC [eight]D 02:25:59 i.e. I have none. 02:26:09 Gregor: But my GC /will/ be the Zepto Bargain Basement Copying Collector. 02:26:14 * Sgeo_346126 suddenly isn't sure that just going inside a function and lexifying all the dynamic variables is possible 02:26:19 Gregor: As soon as I figure out how that does not involve rewriting pointers in running code. 02:26:35 How would one distinguish a lambda from a list? oh, duh, r5rs requires the keyword 02:26:35 What's wrong with that? >: ) 02:26:40 Gregor: I get the feeling that C code requires Infrastructure to use a copying GC. 02:26:46 Unless it's possible to do it without such rewriting? :P 02:27:08 elliott: Hence all the GGC_PUSH nonsense. 02:27:15 Yeaah >_> 02:27:31 Gregor: It would be better if I just used details of the architecture to rewrite it without any infrastructure [eight]D 02:27:45 [eight]D is perhaps the worst smiley ever. 02:27:54 [asterisk]best 02:29:44 O[underline]o 02:29:53 [hello]D 02:29:58 [hi] 02:30:00 elliott: I have actually considered whether I could make a superwtf series of macros for types on the stack. Conclusion: No. 02:30:23 Gregor: Huh? 02:30:36 elliott: For GGGGC to not need GGC_PUSH 02:30:44 I was joking :P 02:30:55 ... "Huh?" isn't much of a joke :P 02:31:06 Gregor: It would be better if I just used details of the architecture to rewrite it without any infrastructure [eight]D 02:31:08 I mean that 02:31:17 Yeah, I got that that was a joke :P 02:31:27 omg 02:31:28 I could do 02:31:30 a 02:31:31 double 02:31:31 copying 02:31:33 allocator 02:31:39 collector 02:31:42 ... 02:31:43 garbage 02:31:45 thing 02:31:59 basically i do the standard copying collector shit, right, except i make sure to preserve the order of objects 02:31:59 Well, have you considered using handles, as per classic Mac OS? 02:32:02 and just leave gigantic holes in thingy 02:32:03 right 02:32:03 ok 02:32:04 so 02:32:06 then 02:32:09 what i do is 02:32:11 i realloc the original space 02:32:13 copy every object back 02:32:17 and then keep using a linear collector 02:32:19 pointers stay the same 02:32:21 everyone's happy 02:32:47 is it fast 02:32:53 it's a funny joke 02:32:55 do you see the joke 02:33:05 it's somewhere in there 02:33:07 elliott: And now your allocator is nontrivial. 02:33:12 pikhq: nope still linear as usual 02:33:16 Gregor knows the joke 02:33:17 tell us the joke Gregor 02:33:29 elliott: One strategy that apparently works for reasons I don't understand (haven't investigated) is making sure your old pointers are strictly invalid, then catching page faults and rewriting the access that way. The reason I don't understand if this works is as far as I know you can never know that a whole region is unreferenced, so essentially you just take up all your VIRTUAL memory without taking REAL memory. 02:33:32 the joke is that collector is one gigantic nop 02:33:32 Either you keep track of free space or you love heap corruption. 02:33:41 you are all too stupid to get this 02:33:44 good joke 02:33:46 which is kinda pathetic :DDDD 02:33:53 I was afraid it was actually doing something 02:34:02 Gregor: Dude, I was the one who linked you to the article on that :P 02:34:05 By article I mean blog post. 02:34:11 elliott: Memory: I don't have it. 02:34:11 BUT THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP BRO 02:34:20 nop as a garbage collector would be pretty fast 02:34:25 Gregor: Well, on 64-bit architectures you have exabytes of virtual memory. 02:34:28 monqy: it's what i currently have 02:34:47 pikhq: Even the rewriting page maps would be enormous :) 02:35:08 Gregor: And you could use gigabyte pages. :P 02:36:26 (yes, x86_64 supports gigabyte pages) 02:36:54 your mom 02:36:55 is a page 02:39:58 I'll page your mom 02:41:36 ais523: thanks 02:41:51 elliott: what for? 02:42:02 ais523: being online so i could tab-complete your name to paste into this email 02:42:05 very thoughtful 02:42:07 ah, I see 02:43:30 is your 523 key missing 02:43:37 yes 02:43:40 the worst key to lose 02:53:28 oh man 02:53:30 segmentation faults 02:53:31 i love those things 02:53:42 are segfaults zepto 02:53:48 yes 02:54:01 I should take notes 02:54:07 fool 02:54:10 you can never be zepto 02:54:12 only i am zepto 02:54:18 I take it that you don't check for NULL from malloc, for being insufficiently zepto? 02:54:28 pikhq: i don't use malloc. 02:54:30 (of course, on a standard Linux system malloc cannot return NULL) 02:55:32 For reasons only comprehensible to a select, crazy few, Linux prefers to kill processes in an OOM situation. 02:56:38 *Though* it's not like that changes too much in practice, due to the common handling of OOM being "if(!(foo=malloc(bar)))exit(1);"... 02:57:55 if(!(foo=malloc(bar))){fprintf(stderr, "oh no\n");exit(1);} 02:58:50 And OOM killer kills will at least be in the kernel log. 02:59:17 Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 02:59:17 0x0000000000400c6a in intern (s=0x613060 "x") at zepto.c:102 02:59:17 102 if (!strcmp((char *) DEREF(record).car, s)) { 02:59:19 i bet i broke something lol 02:59:33 elliott, difference between zepto and pico? 02:59:40 Sgeo_346126: zepto has all the bitches. 02:59:44 and the blackjack. 02:59:45 zepto is zepto 02:59:48 that too 03:00:03 If it weren't for newLISP, zepto might not exist. 03:00:11 pikhq: why does your currency become weak only when I'm going to work in the USA? 03:00:11 o rly 03:00:12 thanks newlisp 03:00:13 Zepto is also un-otpez. 03:00:20 what does newlisp have to do with this 03:00:29 coppro: Because WE HATE DIRTY EUROPEANS 03:00:31 coppro: because working is for chumps, hth 03:00:45 I think I mentioned newlisp, causing elliott to redirect me to picolisp, causing him to regain interest in picolisp, causing zepto 03:00:52 pikhq: I'm not European 03:00:53 i didn't regain interst i just 03:00:55 I'm Canadian 03:00:55 focused my visage on it 03:00:57 so i could fuck it 03:00:58 with zepto 03:00:59 Your government trusts me 03:01:01 ZEPT FUCKING O 03:01:03 I have a piece of paper that says so 03:01:05 coppro: Oh, that's even worse. 03:01:16 coppro: why the fuck would they trust you, you suck ass 03:01:18 coppro: We hate ALL THAT IS UP NORTH 03:01:25 what about south 03:01:28 coppro: The only thing we hate more is our own economy! 03:01:38 monqy: AND ALL THAT IS UP SOUTH 03:01:42 monqy: AND EAST AND WEST 03:01:57 * Sgeo_346126 decides to pour antiwater into the oceans 03:02:08 good luck have fun 03:02:15 The only things we like are bad foreign policy, bad domestic policy, and bad food! 03:02:24 mmmm bad food 03:02:30 It's so... bad. 03:02:40 Oh, yes, and artificial food-like substances. 03:02:46 Indeed, that's probably our favorite thing. 03:02:49 elliott: I have a piece of paper saying that they trust me to enter their country without bringing anything illegal in 03:02:51 * oerjan slips ice 9 into Sgeo_346126's antiwater 03:03:04 coppro: well ass isn't illegal. 03:03:15 sucking it might be though 03:04:42 elliott: Sodomy laws got struck down by the Supreme Court a few years back. 03:04:57 Essentially any sexual action between consenting individuals is legal. 03:05:01 Including sucking ass. 03:05:17 lol 03:06:04 (note: exception. If you are in the US military, it must be between consenting individuals *of opposite gender*. The DADT repeal has yet to go into effect.) 03:06:04 lolling is however strictly forbidden 03:06:46 pikhq: between consenting adult individuals 03:06:55 pikhq: can I still do all sorts of horrifying immoral acts to a consenting person of the opposite gender? 03:06:59 (if I'm in the military) 03:07:14 mad: "Consent" implies that the individuals involved are capable of giving consent. 03:07:17 cause I'm into that 03:07:32 heheheh... Canadian criminal code is so outdated 03:07:38 mad: Children are not capable of such, according to the law. 03:08:21 copumpkin: Yes, you can have uberkinky slave bondage torture sex to your heart's content. 03:08:26 oh yay 03:08:45 I've coined a new term that combines santorum with blood and saliva 03:08:56 but I won't tell you the name as you might reth 03:08:57 Ricksantorum? 03:08:58 retch 03:09:11 Presumably you coined this term out of necessity? 03:09:18 why else? 03:09:25 I need to call it something 03:09:32 pikhq: In Canada, according to the laws on the books, you can do anything you'd like except a) bestiality b) anal sex if there's anyone else around (including a third participant) 03:09:33 you do? 03:09:37 I'm not kidding about b) 03:09:42 coppro: what if you did 03:09:43 BOTH 03:09:43 AT 03:09:44 THE 03:09:44 SAME 03:09:45 TIME 03:10:01 damn, that excludes my second favorite bro-fantastic activity 03:10:02 -!- augur has joined. 03:10:06 coppro: How odd. 03:10:07 chain o' five bros 03:10:29 (one of the bros is a dog) 03:10:32 If you're still saying "chain" and not "circle", you're not thinking far enough. 03:10:44 chain? lol, i primarily work in spheres 03:10:45 and not hollow ones either 03:10:56 Gregor: You need many a person to have a circle of anal sex. 03:11:01 platonic sex solids 03:11:03 rolling across the land 03:11:06 one gigantic mass of buttfuck 03:11:07 I love that comic 03:11:09 the "no homo" one 03:11:12 doing what it wilt 03:11:17 a nation-state unto itself 03:12:00 pikhq: Oh, right, also, if either pariticpant is anal sex is under 18, it's only permitted between husband and wife (and not husband and husband). That one is pretty obviously stretched to include same-sex marriages though. 03:12:29 coppro: ... Why have a seperate age of consent for anal sex and any-other sex? 03:12:41 oerjan: http://howhumanareyou.com/ 03:12:46 i suspect oerjan of being a robot 03:13:16 pikhq: Because our criminal code is criminally outdated 03:13:31 coppro: Ours is, no doubt, worse. 03:13:40 But the UK's takes the cake, I'm sure. 03:13:43 and this section is probably unenforceable 03:13:53 along with our gambling and prostitution laws 03:13:53 anyone not seen that comic and want to? 03:13:59 this test has many false dichotomies, elliott 03:13:59 I feel like I shouldn't post NSFW links in here 03:14:09 cannot imagine why 03:14:17 http://lollotsoporn.com/ 03:14:33 DISAPPOINTED BY NONEXISTENCE 03:14:35 copumpkin: Feel free to post NSFW links. 03:14:42 copumpkin: Just specify "NSFW". 03:14:43 BUT THERE ARE MINORS HERE 03:14:43 oh no it doesnt 03:14:46 We're mostly adults here. 03:14:48 [NSFW]http://wecravegames.com/forums/imagehosting/174beda9351600c.png%20and%20http://wecravegames.com/forums/imagehosting/174beda8e29cf33.png[/NSFW] 03:14:50 fsvo mostly 03:14:57 whoops 03:15:00 it made it all into a single link 03:15:03 at least on my side 03:15:09 * Sgeo_346126 slaps copumpkin for what copumpkin just realized he did 03:15:13 And minors know whether or not they give a fuck about the law. :P 03:15:15 copumpkin: For that you are now banned from posting any links P 03:15:21 damn! 03:15:27 pikhq: In a surprisingly odd twist, our incest laws are very lenient 03:15:39 two generations up or down only 03:15:45 and siblinbs 03:15:48 coppro: phagia? 03:15:56 copumpkin, not linking to the original source? 03:16:02 Sgeo_346126: I was looking for it 03:16:03 *siblings 03:16:04 coppro: So just to be clear from your previous statement, making anal porn is strictly illegal, yes? 03:16:04 but couldn't find it 03:16:10 Gregor: Yes 03:16:14 (NSFW) nsfw-comics.com 03:16:14 Gregor: how about self-filmed 03:16:15 Sgeo_346126 VALUES ORIGINAL SOURCES IN HIS PORN 03:16:26 coppro: In the US, it depends on the state. 03:16:27 copumpkin: Touché sir! 03:16:28 Sgeo_346126: doesn't work 03:16:30 oops 03:16:33 nsfw-comix.com 03:16:36 Gregor: Now, having it, on the other hand 03:16:45 oh excellent 03:16:47 yeah, self-filmed might be ok 03:16:47 anyway, that's a cute comic 03:16:52 y'all should read it 03:16:56 (no homo) 03:16:58 it says "in private" 03:16:59 today i learned a new definition of the word cute 03:17:07 and then explicitly says it's not in private if there's anyone else around 03:17:09 elliott: yeah brah 03:17:23 coppro: It is possible to be married and it be illegal to have sex in the US, quite trivially. 03:17:47 For instance: marry a first cousin in a state where it's legal (most of them) and move to one where it's illegal. 03:17:56 copumpkin: you're a total homo, dont even pretend 03:18:08 augur: nah, I said "no homo" every time 03:18:11 that's safe, right? 03:18:12 its' broken i wonder whyi s roken 03:18:18 Or get married to just about any relative in New Jersey; incest laws only apply to <18 there. 03:18:19 SO YOU ADMIT YOU'RE NOT HOMO SAPIENS?! 03:18:23 HES A ROBOT! 03:18:37 pikhq: hah, really? 03:18:41 Parse error. 03:19:03 coppro: Yes, really. 03:19:11 Found: "S"; Expected: "'" 03:19:16 pikhq: oh, also, our incest laws, in a sudden outbreak of common sense, are defined only by blood relationships 03:19:44 XD 03:19:51 Apparently Japan has no incest laws at all. 03:19:53 that comic is pretty true 03:19:59 They were repealed in 1881. 03:20:26 Marriage between parent-child or siblings is illegal. No further restrictions. 03:20:32 The fact that they are laws based on blood relationships indicates that they aren't trying to solve the wrong problem 03:21:30 copumpkin: :) 03:21:37 outlawing inbreeding seems a bit silly, there's plenty of other ways to get tarded kids 03:21:49 AND I AM NOW GOING TO DEMONSTRATE THEM ALL 03:21:57 copumpkin: anyone familiar with statistical parsers knows well enough that they can handle 's :| 03:22:14 In most normal scenarios, the body has built-in protections to avoid inbreeding anyhow 03:22:17 yeah but statistical parsers are kinda gay 03:22:18 elliott: And you can get inbreeding whilst following incest laws if you try. 03:22:22 copumpkin: no homo 03:22:28 damn right 03:22:34 coppro: unless you've never seen your sibling ever 03:22:37 * copumpkin heaves a sigh of relief 03:22:44 in which case WHOOO BOY DOWNS SYNDROME AHOY 03:22:59 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction) 03:23:01 elliott: That's really not a problem since a single incidence is not likely to cause terribad effects anyhow 03:23:18 coppro: I never said it was a problem, incest is a pretty outdated taboo 03:23:35 But one that isn't relevant most of the time 'cuz of biololology. 03:23:50 elliott: Not to mention a fairly flexible one, anyways. 03:24:16 I'd just as soon see it removed from criminal law myself 03:24:23 "With not long to go until the AV referendum, the waters are muddier than ever. It's confusing. One minute the anti-camp claims a vote for AV would benefit the BNP. Then the pro-camp counters by pointing out the BNP are against AV. Therefore no matter what the outcome, Nick Griffin will both win and lose simultaneously. He'll exist in an uncertain quantum state. Like Schrödinger's cat. I say "cat". I 03:24:23 originally used another word starting with c and ending with t, but the Guardian asked me to change it. Suffice to say, Griffin is a massive cat." 03:24:24 Quick, go around asking if sex with a first cousin is taboo. 03:24:31 coppro: Well, yes. 03:24:47 coppro: Any victimless "crime" absolutely must go! 03:25:02 elliott: :D 03:25:16 pikhq: now you get the satisfaction of reading it again in Charlie Brooker's voice 03:25:18 you're welcome 03:26:02 elliott: Who's Charlie Brooker? 03:26:10 pikhq: Depending on your definition of "victimless" 03:26:12 i 03:26:25 pikhq: he's just this guy who's the best guy ever 03:27:07 dear diary. US does not even know who charlie brooker is. suspect crippling mass depression. must send aid packages. 03:27:15 pikhq: While prostitution generally should be allowed, I think, do we allow under-18s to sell themselves to people of similar age? 03:27:16 coppro: One which does not cause notable harm to anyone who is not a willing participant in good mental health. 03:27:29 "There was a TV ad depicting a Grand National style event in which, thanks to AV, the horse in third place magically finished first. This was unrealistic on two counts: partly because the example they used was impossible, but mainly because all the horses survived." 03:28:06 coppro: Unfortunately, the edge cases here are a bitch. 03:28:07 elliott: What are you quoting :P 03:28:11 Gregor: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/25/av-campaign-created-stupidity-whirlpool 03:28:14 Gregor: Charlie Brooker, your new God. 03:28:15 although I would say that if, hypothetically, underage prostitution were a real offense, then it should be more administrative than criminal 03:28:23 (I have resolved that no American knows who Charlie Brooker is at all.) 03:28:27 (Not even facts will sway me from this position.) 03:28:38 although I'm a fan of the "prisons are a last resort" philosophy to crime anyway 03:28:55 coppro: And I presume said prisons should be Norwegian? 03:29:28 (i.e. actually humane and genuinely beneficial to society, rather than producing career criminals) 03:30:24 it's not like the norwegian prisons never produce career criminals 03:30:38 oerjan: produce != contain 03:30:50 oerjan: No, but they aren't bloody well *designed to fucking do it*. 03:30:52 The US criminal law system basically makes it so that if you get in, getting out is hard 03:31:02 and once you're out, you have nowhere to go but more crime 03:31:20 pikhq: Humane, yes. Beneficial... depends on the criminal. White-collar crime is probably best punished by massive fine and a short "time out" sentence; but for serious cases, you need to assume you're not going to get anything useful out of them 03:31:52 we should lock people in small metal boxes 03:31:54 that'd be fun 03:32:15 but it _did_ notice a story in a norwegian paper the other day about this guy who got actual help to get a job while in prison 03:32:19 *i 03:32:23 Alternatively, people who have driven crime (gang lords) should also probably be disconnected from society for a long while 03:32:28 no 03:32:30 they should be locked 03:32:32 in a communal metal box 03:32:40 of fun 03:32:43 and laughter 03:32:53 elliott: with GLaD0S in charge? 03:33:05 oerjan: Your prisons are pretty much designed for rehabilitation. 03:33:07 hmm, no 03:34:08 oddly enough, prisons are one area where the media overblowing something is a good thing 03:34:58 since the media tends to make them sound a lot scarier than they are, and that keeps people afraid of them, and that keeps them following the law 03:35:09 (or trying harder not to get caught, I suppose. But probably more of the former on balance) 03:36:22 does fear of the horrible reality of prisons actually stop people committing crime in large numbers 03:36:24 i'm not sure i buy it 03:38:23 elliott: No, the horrible reality of prisons, at least in the US, are directly responsible for people committing crime in large numbers. 03:38:40 i'd prefer actual studies 03:40:44 Recidivism is 67%. Any further questions? 03:41:54 really i'd prefer a response from coppro. 03:46:00 * elliott twiddles thumbs. 03:46:31 elliott: It has some effect; I have no clue how much 03:46:43 (gdb) print record 03:46:43 $1 = (obj) 0x894855c3c9002012 03:46:43 (gdb) print interned 03:46:43 $2 = (obj) 0x6030c1 03:46:43 wow ok. 03:47:05 coppro: ok, so you're basically saying that the media overblowing the horrors of prison is good based on nothing? just checking 03:47:23 elliott: I do not have hard studies for you, no 03:47:44 elliott: It is a conclusion I have arrived at with logic 03:47:53 I have concluded there must be some effect 03:48:00 I do not know enough to conclude the volume 03:48:05 and what on earth compels you to think it's not a horrifically bad effect 03:48:09 *magnitude 03:48:16 and, say i were to ask for this logic, would i be intensely surprised to learn that you haven't actually written it down 03:48:22 i'm not into trusting random intuition frankly 03:48:38 it's not intuition 03:48:58 it's as good as 03:49:02 No, logic is better 03:49:06 intuition is a hunch 03:49:14 logic is saying "I know X and Y, therefore Z." 03:49:16 not logic you haven't/won't/can't disclosed 03:49:23 [asterisk]disclose 03:49:33 I can disclose the logic, but it is still based on my own observations 03:50:06 the logic is that people are deterred from something by the threat of pain 03:50:13 Then do so before I call you on proof surrogate. :P 03:50:16 coppro: are they? 03:50:56 elliott: Yes. I refuse to prove this statement as this is a very, very well-accepted psychological fact 03:51:02 i mean, if you compare the american justice system and SNOOTY RICH EUROPEAN JUSTICE, it sure doesn't seem like making prisons shitty helps much. 03:51:09 coppro: oh -- it's intuitive 03:51:09 ok 03:51:16 yeah i am done here 03:51:19 elliott: No, it's not that it's intuitive 03:51:26 it's that there are many studies backing this up 03:51:27 i'm done 03:51:33 you can conduct one in the comfort of your own home 03:52:49 elliott: I'll cite so he doesn't have to. Pavlov. 03:52:54 :P 03:53:00 pikhq: i don't deny that specific fact is true. 03:53:09 coppro was obviously generalising it to something less direct 03:53:14 but why am i responding, i have already said i am done 03:53:26 BECAUSE YOU LIE 03:53:28 pikhq: Nonono, he did that on dogs. It's clearly not valid on humans. 03:53:55 woo, now we've moved on to trolling 03:54:08 this is the very tops of this channel 03:54:27 crime rate is correlated to gini index 03:54:29 a lot 03:54:37 elliott: Hey, "because you lie" is a very good response for "why am I responding, I have already said I am done". 03:54:47 pikhq: i was not referring to you. i was referring to coppro. 03:54:52 Ah. Well. 03:55:12 coppro is hereby invited to defend his own actions. 03:55:32 let's not. 03:58:00 my actions were correct 03:58:23 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:00:59 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:01:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:01:10 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 04:04:02 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:04:08 What's the 286's maximum amount of addressable memory? Anybody know? 04:05:12 -!- elliott has joined. 04:05:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers 04:05:54 ... 04:06:05 -!- lament has joined. 04:07:17 Gregor: best list. 04:07:36 Gregor: "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it." 04:07:39 best sentence imo 04:07:40 X-D 04:07:45 -!- kwertii has joined. 04:07:48 oh come on 04:07:54 Gregor: 16 MiB; it had a 24-bit address bus. 04:07:59 suddenly, ais523 facepalms 04:08:05 they should at least use the "This list is incomplete, and may never satisfy certain standards for completion" template 04:08:07 0Zeroaught, cipher, cypher, goose egg, love, nada, naught, nil, none, nought, nowt, null, ought, oh, squat, zed, zilch, zip 04:08:13 pikhq: Thankee 04:08:14 goose egg 04:10:09 Which is also the maximum possible address space in 16-bit protected mode. 04:11:03 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit). 04:11:21 Gregor: Is Fythe running on an Apple II yet 04:14:13 elliott: Yup. 04:14:16 elliott: That port was E-Z. 04:14:24 Gregor: Is the Apple II sentient 04:14:37 elliott: Aren't they all. 04:14:39 ? 04:14:46 Yes. 04:15:35 286 pm? that's so obscure :D 04:17:23 Without that list, how am I to learn to count? 04:17:50 The next natural number after 220 is 230 04:17:51 I feel smart 04:17:58 Strongly carefree constant: 0.286747... 04:18:46 Gregor, did your TC interpreter get any smaller? 04:18:47 yeah no one cares about that one 04:19:16 lifthrasiir: Nope, 77 bytes. And I never claimed it was TC, just that its semantics were TC if not for a limited word size :P 04:19:35 oh yeah, TC except for bounded memory. ;) 04:19:54 Well that's a pretty severe issue when your word size is 8 bits :) 04:20:09 Fictitious numbers! 04:20:28 I can actually save a byte and make it 32-bit, but then it's not endian-portable. 04:20:29 Any relation to fictitious concepts like space? 04:20:32 Space does not exist. 04:20:41 Ok, I'm evil 04:20:49 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Surround_notation&curid=3828&diff=22152&oldid=22147 04:20:51 PSA 04:20:56 * oerjan punches Sgeo_346126 04:20:57 we do not need to be editing these articles 04:20:58 we need to be forgetting they exist 04:21:02 as long as tehz himself 04:33:49 -!- kwertii has joined. 04:37:33 -!- azaq23 has joined. 04:38:34 omfgoimg why is it so slow 04:39:51 I continue to wonder: why is "coelacanth" a word I've seen more in Japanese than in English? 04:40:32 because none of us can pronounce that 04:40:41 well that's just because japanese is a bit fishy 04:40:41 (シーラカンス [shiirakansu] in Japanese) 04:40:53 pikhq: They appear to be common in video games? 04:41:05 coppro: Actually, song lyrics. 04:41:12 wait what 04:41:29 They're absurdly common in song lyrics in Japanese rock music. I have no idea why. 04:41:43 Okay, well, absurdly common *in comparison to what you'd expect*. 04:42:01 maybe it just sounds good? 04:42:07 maybe it's a common metaphor for something? 04:42:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:42:58 I can only guess it's being used as a metaphor. 04:43:35 It certainly doesn't *seem* particularly euphonious. But, then, my ideas of euphony vs. cacaphony in Japanese are fairly off, so cannot be used as a reliable judge of anything. 04:44:15 Well, I can comment that it's a tiny bit *long* for Japanese. A whole 6 morae. 04:44:26 -!- augur has joined. 04:44:59 pikhq: maybe it's used to fill out syllables to make lines fit >:D 04:45:16 it doesn't happen to have a meaning other than coelacanth? 04:45:23 it also means "the" 04:45:33 oerjan: I looked it up in bilingual and monolingual dictionaries. 04:46:32 pikhq can i have more badnwidth 04:46:39 oerjan: The bilingual ones say "coelacanth". Monolingual ones describe it as a genera of fish that was once thought to have been extinct, and note that it's from English "coelacanth". 04:46:55 _you're_ extinct 04:46:56 lol 04:46:58 Erm, s/genera/genus/ 04:47:13 more like genera-lly extinct 04:47:19 sometimes i think im just too genius? 04:47:20 you know? 04:47:32 then i kinda snap out of it and go naw. 04:47:38 oerjan: So, yeah. It is *definitely* referring to the fish. 04:47:50 oh it's actually a loan word... 04:47:55 Yes, yes it is. 04:48:27 Actually, most words for animals are loaned from one language or another in Japanese... 04:49:08 Only a small handful of native ones. For, like, "dog", "cat", "cow", "horse"... 04:49:14 pikhq: haha your country is hilarious http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/state-dept-wants-to-make-it-harder-to-get-a-passport/ 04:50:27 hey they need to prepare for when it gets so bad they need to keep people in... 04:50:33 coppro: Oh jesus fuck. I don't think I could actually fill out that questionnaire. 04:51:00 I have moved something like 10 times already. 04:51:40 Though if that doesn't apply to renewals, then fuck yeah. 04:52:16 * pikhq has already had 2 passports 04:52:25 pikhq: The best part is the estimated 45 minutes to fill it out 04:52:39 coppro: Lies and deceit right there. 04:53:03 I think that the Japanese naturalisation process is less involved. 04:53:15 And they have a reputation of discouraging any and all immigration... 04:54:01 heh 04:55:17 *They ask for a list of appointments your mother had for pre or post-natal care*. 04:56:01 yeah, that's utterly ridiculous 04:56:03 As well as a *list of people present at your birth*. 04:56:26 because I know that 04:56:38 What if I don't know who my parents are? 04:57:36 They also seem to give a fairly conservative amount of space for the list of employers and the list of residences... 04:57:54 yeah 04:58:15 I'd be almost out of space on the form. Already. 04:58:17 I'm 21. 04:58:48 7 employers... 04:59:04 ... I think I'm well over on schools. 05:00:01 Indeed I am. 05:00:31 fortunately, I don't have to get a US passport 05:00:56 This form was undoubtedly designed by someone who has had a stultifyingly simple life. 05:01:29 your typical lawyer won't be able to fill that form out entirely 05:02:38 Indeed, you would need more knowledge about your own life than most people would even imagine knowing. 05:03:44 actually, a person with 100% perfect recall would quite likely be unable to complete that form 05:03:57 How so? 05:04:19 How the hell does someone, even with perfect recall, know where their mother lived a year before their birth? 05:04:28 Ah, yes. 05:04:42 Unless you know your mother never moved, that is going to be damned fucking difficult. 05:05:24 Especially if she's dead or won't tell you 05:05:58 Oh, and imagine an 85 year old applying for a new passport. 05:06:22 the absolute best part of this 05:06:57 They already have the problem that they *probably don't have any documentation older than the social security card they got for their first job*... 05:07:00 is that if this form gets approved, then people will be made less able to come to Canada, and they'll probably complain that Canada requires a passport for immigration 05:07:18 and guess whose fault that is 05:08:00 Pez? 05:10:45 It's the fault of the USA's xenophobia 05:10:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:29:17 * pikhq is somewhat amused by the lack of *chimpanzee* ancestors... 05:29:55 There's less evidence that chimpanzees evolved from monkeys than that humans did. :P 05:31:40 ...??? 05:31:48 What are you babbling about :P 05:33:00 Gregor: Basically, the chimp fossil record kinda goes poof between the possible common ancestor of humans & chimps, and modern-day chimps. 05:39:29 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:08:13 -!- nottwo has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:36:12 Sweet. We've got satellites in Earth's Lagrangian points. 06:36:26 Specifically, L1 and L2. 06:37:44 To specify further, the Lagrangian points in the Sun-Earth system. 06:48:30 coppro, do they actually think that people will be able to fill it out? 06:48:31 >.> 06:50:13 Lymia: no 06:50:39 pikhq: what about for earth-moon? 06:56:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:57:18 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:59:23 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:59:25 coppro: No, but there have been many proposals for such. 07:00:10 coppro: The Sun-Earth L1 and L2 points are in use because they're very convenient for observation. 07:01:08 coppro: Earth-Moon L1 and L2 would be of most use with man actually on the Moon; communication satellites, waypoints for further travel, and the like. 07:20:08 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:29:54 -!- mad has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 07:43:02 XD 07:43:19 Placental mammals *also* form an egg-shell analog and a yolk. 07:45:47 In placentals, the yolk serves as part of the early circulatory system. 07:48:11 The egg shell analog is the amniotic sac. Serves no function; it's just a vestigial egg shell. 08:09:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 08:22:38 -!- tim000 has joined. 08:40:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 09:00:52 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 09:07:37 -!- azaq23 has left. 09:46:08 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:48:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:50:56 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:56:16 -!- chen__ has joined. 09:59:13 -!- chen__ has quit (Client Quit). 10:04:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:19:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:11:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:29:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:41:20 Wow, cleaning package cache freed 22GB of disk space. :-) 11:47:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:51:42 http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/gwmp7/how_does_starting_a_girlfriendboyfriend/ 11:51:43 Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 11:51:44 I... 11:54:00 Phantom_Hoover: "...have 2 messages!?"? 11:54:26 DAMMIT LAMBDABOT 11:55:37 You know what, I'm unsubscribing from AskReddit as well. 11:57:10 -!- siracusa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:57:34 SOON I WILL HAVE UNSUBSCRIBED FROM ALL OF REDDIT 11:58:14 -!- siracusa has joined. 12:00:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]). 12:24:49 -!- oklofok has joined. 12:26:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:19:09 Wow, cleaning package cache freed 22GB of disk space. :-) <-- distro? 13:20:02 Phantom_Hoover, sounds like the sort of thing I'd need help with (just judging from the URL) 13:23:23 Who's the local python bot? 13:23:28 Sgeo_346126, yes, I was going to say "Oh god, it's full of Sgeos" but I decided it wasn't worth it. 13:23:43 Lymia, there isn't a local bot written in Python. 13:23:49 Who's the local python exec bot? 13:27:38 `python -e "print 'I forget the correct syntax'" 13:27:41 No output. 13:27:56 `python - "print 'I forget the correct syntax'" 13:27:57 No output. 13:27:59 `python -c "print 'I forget the correct syntax'" 13:28:01 No output. 13:28:14 -!- Sgeo_346126 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:28:33 `run python -c "print 'I forget the correct syntax'" 2>&1 13:28:35 I forget the correct syntax 13:28:42 -_- 13:29:13 * Phantom_Hoover → outside. 13:32:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:35:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:41:43 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 13:42:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:43:04 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:59:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:08:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:16:22 -!- augur has joined. 14:17:17 today's iwc is definitely confusing... 14:19:08 oerjan, indeed 14:19:25 oerjan, what is it that Alvissa has understood 14:20:06 heck if i know 14:22:14 the ruby is supposedly in the citadel, which ardaxar came out of. how can it not already be in his possession. maybe he just found out where it is. 14:23:11 oerjan, time travel? 14:23:24 well that's certainly all the rage 14:23:32 exactly 14:24:30 oerjan, or maybe it turns out the party is carrying it without knowing it? 14:24:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are now taking up collections for the "elliott needs a sense of fnarf" fund | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 14:24:42 Kyros spehere is the wrong colour for it 14:24:46 hm 14:24:56 but they're not lying within the citadel afaict... 14:25:03 hm indeed 14:25:35 oerjan: do you know how to get p -> !!p or !!p -> p from (p -> (q -> p)), (p -> (q -> r)) -> ((p -> q) -> (p -> r)), (!p -> !q) -> (q -> p)? 14:25:54 i hope you are familiar with those or this might be a bit scary :D 14:26:15 oerjan, is it just me or is the head of the dragon in http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/comic.php?current=3005&theme=2&dir=next see-through at the eyes? 14:26:25 i tried to do it but i just can't use axiom 3 14:26:50 oklofok, have you tried google btw? 14:27:00 or a text book 14:27:02 i could check metamath 14:27:09 well then! 14:27:12 what's the fun in that 14:27:19 Vorpal: hm. only in the first panel though. 14:27:30 much more fun to tackle it myself or ask ppl 14:27:30 oklofok, what is the fun in asking oerjan as opposed to figuring it out yourself 14:27:44 Vorpal: us humans like social interaction 14:27:58 oklofok, oh, right. (damn, this pretense is hard) 14:29:56 Vorpal is secretely that alien guy from mezzacotta 14:30:05 *secretly 14:30:12 yeah that was kind eww 14:30:15 oerjan, which alien guy in mezzacotta? 14:30:22 oerjan, link? 14:31:12 oerjan: you didn't answer btw so i assume you're thinking real hard? 14:31:18 a bit hard to search for... 14:31:23 oklofok: i don't see how to do it 14:31:30 alrighty 14:32:31 oerjan, well point to the person in http://www.mezzacotta.net/cast/ ? 14:33:08 duchovny presumably 14:33:22 ah 14:33:48 -!- Fuco has joined. 14:34:23 so I'm using STRN fingerprint for befunge... P(0gnirts Va -- ) , what does Va mean? V is vector, which is just x/y pair, but what does that 'a' represent? 14:34:31 should I just push 10 there? 14:34:56 hm 14:35:12 Fuco, let me check what my implementation of STRN does 14:35:53 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:35:59 looking at rcfunge sources, it only pops zyx and than while(a!=0) pop and write 14:36:06 "P - Put string at specified position" 14:36:10 yep 14:36:24 Fuco, Va is a funge vector, used to decide where the string should be put. The delta from there is fixed 14:36:53 http://sprunge.us/IHRU?c 14:36:55 is it somehow different from just 'V' 14:37:10 "V - Retrieve value from string"? 14:37:21 that is atoi() basically as far as I can tell 14:37:26 at least that is what I do for it 14:37:34 no, I mean 14:37:41 P (0gnirts V -- ) 14:37:44 if it was like this 14:37:52 because often the argument is denoted V, but sometimes Va 14:37:54 looks like notation to me 14:38:15 Fuco, these are rcfunge docs? They are sometimes not very clear on things 14:38:22 yea 14:38:28 anyway I would suggest ccbi or cfunge as better interpreters than rcfunge. 14:38:39 though for trefunge I guess you would be stuck with rcfunge 14:38:41 are they opensource? 14:38:45 Fuco, yes 14:39:09 because I'm hacking the interpreter to add debuging info :D 14:39:17 http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html https://launchpad.net/cfunge 14:39:23 Fuco, the former has a built in debugger 14:39:25 well, I just can't get P instruction to work... 14:39:26 the latter has tracing 14:39:37 (I'm the author of cfunge) 14:39:58 Vorpal: CCBI supports trefunge 14:40:04 Deewiant, oh? okay 14:40:10 (and Deewiant is the author of ccbi) 14:40:32 Fuco, I would not spend time on rcfunge code personally. From what I seen it is rather a mess. 14:40:48 well, ok 14:41:14 Fuco, much more fun to write your own implementation from scratch :) 14:41:31 if you do I suggest using this test suite. http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology.html 14:43:23 how can I untar bz2? :D 14:43:44 tar xvfz don't work (z is for gzip?) 14:43:48 Fuco, tar -jxf 14:43:53 bz2 is for bzip2 14:44:36 With GNU tar, just leave out the z or j, it'll figure it out. 14:44:51 Fuco, are you using ccbi or cfunge? for cfunge I need to make another release soon, sometime. There are quite a few important bug fixes in the trunk 14:45:06 (I think, haven't been working on cfunge for a while now) 14:45:51 right now I'm compiling cfunge 14:46:08 aargh, gcc 4.6 gives quite a few warnings. 14:46:17 time to start working on cfunge again XD 14:46:55 wow, sweet makefile 14:46:59 lots of colors :D 14:47:47 YES, it works! :D 14:47:56 cmake yes 14:47:57 be blessed good sir =) 14:48:08 Fuco, if it is last release I think there are a handful of bugs in it 14:48:26 well I'm using rather basic stuff 14:48:44 we have this challenge with a friend to write a befunge irc bot :D 14:48:54 Oy cmake >_< 14:49:10 fungot: Tell Fuco how his challenge is redundant. 14:49:11 Gregor: it'd be cooler if not esoteric 14:49:25 Fuco: fungot seems to want you to write a C IRC bot. 14:49:25 Gregor: well i know why i chose term result. solving the first part of the joke too... 14:49:59 well I know about fungot 14:49:59 Fuco: there is such a hack. 14:50:03 but I want to do it myself :P 14:50:40 that's the fun part after all, right :) 14:52:34 Oy cmake >_< <-- yes. I'd not use it if I were to do it all again 14:52:39 but it is more work switching away now 14:52:56 Vorpal: What would you use 14:54:46 Deewiant, probably autotools. Because stuff like cross compiling and what not just works. But there is really no good C build system. 14:55:08 Yeah, CMake is my current preference 14:55:16 autotools is a no-go because I think of Windows :-P 14:55:48 Deewiant, it can get tedious with cmake doing stuff that is simple in autotools. I have quite a handful of cmake macros for such stuff... 14:55:56 $ ls cmake/modules/ 14:55:56 CfungeCheckCflag.cmake CfungeCheckLinkerFlag.cmake CfungeRequireInclude.cmake MacroAddLinkFlags.cmake 14:55:56 CfungeCheckFunction.cmake CfungeCheckWarningFlags.cmake CfungeRequireMultipleIncludes.cmake 14:55:56 CfungeCheckLibraryFunction.cmake CfungeRequireFunction.cmake CfungeSetBuildInfoFlags.cmake 14:56:11 autotools is miles ahead of cmake, and for me portability to Windows means "builds with MingW in MSYS" :P 14:56:15 I don't feel the need to test for the existence of stdio.h :-P 14:56:24 Deewiant, indeed nor do I 14:56:32 Running ./configure --help in MSYS takes a minute 14:56:36 Deewiant: If you are checking for it, then you're autotoolsing utterly wrong. 14:56:37 With autotools 14:57:16 Step one for making a tolerable autotools: Run autoscan, then disregard the vast majority of what it generates. 14:57:37 Deewiant: And yes, but then Windows is an intolerably shitty OS and when possible I usually cross-compile for it rather than building natively :P 14:57:39 Vorpal: But you check for C99 headers and stuff 14:57:49 Deewiant, because openbsd used to be crazy 14:57:54 I'd just let the build fail 14:58:08 Deewiant, well I only check a handful there. 14:58:17 I'll bet the build DOESN'T fail, it works around (?) 14:58:27 5 * C99, 10 * POSIX headers 14:58:30 Gregor, it fails on missing some C99 headers 14:58:38 Deewiant, and openbsd was missing acosl and such 14:58:39 And then a few dozen POSIX/C99 functions 14:59:00 and random() is actually XSI 14:59:29 Deewiant, I only need C99 + pure POSIX.1-2001 + mmap, at least that is my intention. 14:59:40 Again, I'd just let the build fail 14:59:41 oh wait, I require strdup too it seems 15:00:18 strdup is in POSIX.1 15:00:27 Gregor, it was XSI last I checked 15:00:36 CONFORMING TO 15:00:36 strdup() conforms to SVr4, 4.3BSD, POSIX.1-2001. 15:00:52 Gregor, I suggest you check POSIX docs itself 15:01:55 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:04:21 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:04:27 hm POSIX 2001 lists it as XSI, but POSIX 2008 lists it as CX 15:04:33 what on earth is CX... 15:05:14 Vorpal: Good lawd, it's NOT in base >_< 15:05:16 ah extension to C.. Right it is mandatory in POSIX-2008 15:05:22 HATE when man pages are wrong. 15:05:35 Gregor, if you check the feature test macros you will see it 15:06:06 Gregor, actually the man page is correct. It conforms to an option group described in POSIX.1-2001. The man page just doesn't say POSIX.1-2001 makes it optional 15:06:25 strdup(): 15:06:25 _SVID_SOURCE || _BSD_SOURCE || _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500 || _XOPEN_SOURCE && _XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED 15:06:25 || /* Since glibc 2.12: */ _POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 200809L 15:06:26 Oh, I thought the man pages listed which group it was in when it wasn't in the base >_> 15:06:26 however 15:06:29 makes it very clear 15:06:43 ... that's not in my man page! 15:06:54 Gregor, it is in SYNOPSIS for me 15:07:09 just below the prototypes 15:07:14 Gregor, man 3 strdup 15:07:23 let me check on a less bleeding edge system than arch 15:07:26 Gee, thanks for telling me how to get to the man page I'm ALREADY READING X_X 15:07:45 on ubuntu lucid it lists: strdup(): _SVID_SOURCE || _BSD_SOURCE || _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500 15:07:52 looks wrong to me 15:08:09 Gregor, I thought you were maybe checking man 3p strdup 15:09:31 -!- lament has joined. 15:09:35 Gregor, your system must be outdated 15:15:53 Vorpal: is there some way to display the actual fungespace during execution? 15:15:56 in cfunge 15:16:25 Fuco, no, it doesn't make much sense anyway, befunge-98 has a huge funge space 15:16:35 and well, mycology is huge, so it never been useful to me 15:16:49 Fuco, if you want a good debugger I suggest ccbi. 15:17:16 tswett_56: your secret is out 15:17:18 * copumpkin rubs hands in glee 15:17:29 well I don't need to see *all* of it :P just the relevant part where I store data 15:17:35 well, where I *think* I store data :D 15:17:36 Fuco, there is a .gdbinit in the tarball for cfunge, with some useful gdb macros. But mostly useful to me since I know the code 15:17:47 I see 15:18:24 Fuco, if you didn't make a release build you could attach gdb and call void fungespace_dumparea(funge_cell minx, funge_cell miny, funge_cell maxx, funge_cell maxy) 15:18:25 XD 15:18:36 but yeah for debugger, ccbi is more practical 15:19:41 Fuco, my goal is usually to debug the interpreter, not the program 15:20:15 screw debugers, I'll do it like a man 15:20:20 with careful trial and error 15:20:21 :D 15:21:12 Fuco, you can use -t to make cfunge print what it is doing 15:21:17 -t 1 to -t 9 15:21:23 gives you different amounts of details 15:21:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:21:43 (I think -t 8 and -t 9 only differ in how much stuff they print for k 15:25:20 -!- augur has joined. 15:25:58 -!- Mannerisky has left. 15:28:52 -!- pumpkin has joined. 15:30:05 there. made some updates to cfunge (mostly docs) 15:30:44 fungot: Which version are you running on anyway? 15:30:45 fizzie: it took part in the discussion?") 15:32:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:32:26 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 15:36:30 fizzie, you use a bzr checkout? bzr log | head 15:40:29 oklopol: do those first two axioms give you enough to do ordinary deduction with -> ? if so you can get from !!p -> (!!!!p -> !!p) to !!p -> (!!p -> p) and then to !!p -> p. 15:42:34 oerjan: yeah they give you intuitionistic logic afaik 15:43:33 so from (!!!!p -> !!p) you can get to (!!p -> p) by using #3 twice 15:43:50 that was the idea 15:43:52 and we need to do that inside the -> clause 15:44:05 Deewiant, you realise that total memory on http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/ is quite useless? 15:44:05 yeah that's certainly possible 15:44:11 Deewiant, a lot is after all fixed overhead 15:44:38 oerjan: oh we just need a>b, b>c => a>c? 15:44:44 yeah i think so 15:45:10 Deewiant, I mean, cfunge will allocate quite a lot in one go at the start. And even for those that don't you are counting stuff like size of memory mapped libc.so a number of times 15:45:19 that and (p -> (p -> r)) -> (p -> r) 15:45:20 STRN 'D' instruction works really weirdly ;D 15:45:26 right 15:45:36 Vorpal: You might want an interpreter that /doesn't/ allocate quite a lot in one go. 15:45:48 looks like it goes to the beginning of the line each time you print something 15:46:03 Deewiant, hm 15:46:03 (p -> (p -> r)) => (p -> p) -> (p -> r) 15:46:11 Deewiant, but malloc in libc already does! 15:46:18 => (p -> r) since p->p follows easily from #1 and #2 15:46:18 So don't use it ;-P 15:46:23 looks like it goes to the beginning of the line each time you print something <-- no? 15:46:25 i couldn't immediately see how to get p->p 15:46:32 Fuco, you must be using NCRS or something 15:46:44 take (p -> (q -> p)) 15:46:46 Fuco, or maybe you have a \n at the start of it? 15:46:48 and then umm 15:47:10 it is simply stack_pop_string(ip->stack, NULL); and fputs((char*)s, stdout); 15:47:11 q = r -> p 15:47:15 (plus some error checking) 15:47:33 (cfunge uses unsigned char internally) 15:47:38 (p -> (q -> p)) -> ((p -> q) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> q) -> (p -> p) gives you p -> p 15:48:04 because q can be anything, in particular you can just use p -> (q -> p) 15:48:09 for some other q 15:48:10 speaking of which, I should avoid going to char for strings unless I'm doing IO 15:48:13 hm 15:48:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:48:31 right? 15:48:44 that is 15:48:54 argh noise 15:48:56 Deewiant, you don't test for that! If popped strings are casted to char* or are kept as cell* 15:49:16 Deewiant, what does ccbi do there 15:49:22 Where 15:49:27 we do what i did, but use q->p instead of q to get (p -> ((q -> p) -> p)) -> ((p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p), then you get p->p 15:49:37 Deewiant, STRN C (strcmp) for example 15:49:57 Deewiant, does it compare them as arrays of cell, or as arrays of chars 15:50:08 and what should it do 15:50:13 Beats me. Not as if it's specified anyway :-P 15:50:50 Deewiant, right, could affect other fingerprints too. I see I'm somewhat inconsistent in STRN, some things are done as char* some as array of cells directly (due to never using pop string function) 15:51:40 most cases I use stack_pop_string seems to be IO 15:52:10 or external libraries 15:53:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: THE NOISE, IT BUUURNS). 15:58:05 fizzie, you might want to update cfunge that fungot runs on if older than r823. There are some fixes for bug in STRN (which you use iirc) since then 15:58:06 Vorpal: toys is so vague it is hard to understand why pretentiousness doesn't carry past a single generation 15:58:18 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:58:29 TOYS butterfly operation certainly is 15:58:49 not sure about which generations you mean 15:59:38 fizzie, sorry, make that r850 16:29:15 this is awesome, and utterly scary. I would never dare use it: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Conversion_from_Ext3 16:31:33 copumpkin: quit responding to tweets in IRC! I never understand what you're tlaking about! :P 16:31:46 pff 16:32:56 Since I'm not a fan of security through obscurity, here's the phrase copumpkin was referring to: 16:33:00 "The bagel exam is out. I've scurried over to MAK." 16:34:34 -!- tswett_56 has changed nick to tswett. 16:43:05 -!- Tritonio_Droid has joined. 16:54:16 I look forward to btrfs becoming stable 17:00:45 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 17:01:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:01:26 we do what i did, but use q->p instead of q to get (p -> ((q -> p) -> p)) -> ((p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p), then you get p->p 17:02:26 Have you been trying to prove p → p from p→(q→p) and (p→(q→r))→((p→q)→(p→r))? 17:03:35 Phantom_Hoover: i have been trying to prove what i said i was trying to prove, so no 17:03:44 p->p is easy 17:03:47 OK. 17:04:01 what we did was prove !!p -> p 17:04:41 kind of obvious once i applied oerjan to get the starting point !!p -> (!!!!p -> !!p) 17:05:38 not very constructive of you 17:06:01 höhöhö 17:06:38 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:15:19 -!- oklofok has joined. 17:15:54 The Axiom of Ørjan. 17:17:28 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:20:58 I heard Ørjan had an evil twin, his name was Örjan 17:38:50 cheater99, strange for a twin to use a different alphabet. 17:53:34 Laspamupsit. 17:54:25 Jumalauta. 18:02:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:04:40 Hah, Linux times out connection attempts to unreachable on-link hosts in 3 seconds (with "no route to host" error). 18:04:58 tswett: voi saatanan saatana 18:06:30 Saatanauta. 18:07:12 Terve. Minä olen kivi. 18:07:46 Sinä myös oletko kivi? 18:08:34 s/ä myös oletko/äkö myös olet/ 18:08:58 also oletko sinä myös kivi is better 18:09:16 even though it's ambiguous 18:09:26 "You, too, are?" vs "are you also?" 18:09:27 Finnish also does inversion like that? 18:10:11 Is it the same ambiguity that "Are you a stone as well?" has in English? 18:10:38 yeah true exactly same thing as in english 18:10:52 tswett: kyllä 18:11:05 Kivi kuva kivi kuva kivi kuva. Kivi syö kuvan. Kuva ei syö kivin. 18:11:17 s/kivin.$/kiveä./ 18:11:18 ei syö kiveä 18:11:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:11:59 can't use genitive with negation 18:12:24 Kuva ei syö kiveä. And it's the partitive because it's negated, there? 18:12:30 Vorpal: i know right 18:12:40 yes, in positive you can say both kiven and kiveä 18:12:46 Vorpal: but then you realize that he's the.. EVIL twin 18:12:55 this is to be expected! 18:13:08 Laskea irti. 18:13:24 -!- monqy has joined. 18:14:13 Lasken, lasket, laskee, laske. Minä, minun, minua, minut. 18:14:22 Koira laskee minut irti. 18:15:02 mitä tarkoitat? 18:15:33 That depends; what does "laskea irti" mean? 18:15:44 let go 18:17:40 "The dog lets me go". 18:19:46 emmä oikeen tajuu kyl 18:23:47 -Ni, -si, -nsa. Koirani tappaa koiransi. 18:24:44 s/nsi/si/ (or s/nsi/nsa/?) 18:24:53 -!- variable has joined. 18:25:26 Do you drop the declension for possessive suffixes or something? 18:26:07 I'm not sure what you're trying to mean with -nsi 18:26:21 The accusative and second-person possessive. 18:27:04 Yeah, there it gets dropped. 18:27:10 * tswett nods. 18:27:15 for genitive 18:27:20 not for much else 18:27:39 koirallani on koiraltasi saatuja karvoja 18:29:19 -!- SimonRC has joined. 18:29:48 I'll have to correct Google Translate's "my dog ​​is koiraltasi from hairs" later. Right now, I have to go outside or something. 18:29:53 Forgive the Unicode disaster. 18:36:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]). 18:37:33 Käppääli! 18:38:15 haista homo vittu 18:39:30 Vittu vittu vittu. 18:39:52 Tervetuloa vittu. 18:44:42 -!- wareya has joined. 18:45:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:46:29 -!- elliott has joined. 18:46:54 -!- wareya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:56:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:02:14 -!- augur has joined. 19:04:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:05:07 where's oerjan where you need him 19:05:08 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 19:11:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:26:29 elliott: why/when would you ever need him? 19:26:54 olsner: i forget 19:37:53 When you need someone else to think for you. 19:39:01 well it's hard to get oerjan to think for you, it's just he doesn't have to think to solve all my problems 19:39:06 he just has to look 19:39:16 (disclaimer: may not be true) 19:48:59 if (interned == NIL) ptr = interned = cons(NIL, NIL); 19:48:59 while (CDR(ptr) != NIL) { 19:48:59 obj record = CAR(ptr); 19:48:59 if (!strcmp((char *) CAR(record), s)) { 19:49:00 durrr 19:49:03 look at how i'm retarded 19:50:08 Argh, shit. 19:50:22 I need the symbol NIL to make NIL, so I need to intern it, but the interning code relies on NIL :P 19:53:37 elliott, what are you trying to do again? 19:53:41 Zepto. 19:55:26 Bleh, my architecture, it is broken. 19:55:57 It looks like I _do_ need three-conses. 19:56:27 elliott: you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is 19:56:32 I am indeed. 19:57:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:58:24 Gregor: EVEN MORE 19:58:25 INTERIOR 19:58:26 POINTERS 20:00:51 elliott: I'm disappointed by 77lang's restrictive word size, but unsure how to extend it without creating endianness problems. 20:01:06 Gregor: Embed a Fythe VM. 20:01:31 That might be complicated in <140 bytes. 20:01:37 Gregor: But srsly, I think some kind of ByteByte thing might work. 20:01:41 Or WordWordJump. 20:01:45 FINE 20:01:57 Gregor: Say, an X[asterisk]X-bit WordWordJump. 20:02:03 Where X is sizeof(int)timeseight 20:04:11 elliott: Upon reading wiki page: BECOMING LESS CONVINCED 20:04:18 Gregor: Like I said, use the same size. 20:04:21 So there's no casting involved. 20:04:34 elliott: That doesn't solve the word size issue, although it MIGHT be smaller. 20:05:04 for(;;){m[p[1]]=m[*p];p=m+p[2];} 20:05:07 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:05:08 That's a pretty short main loop /shrug 20:05:24 Gregor: It'd be word-size specific, but you could just assume int is thirty-two bits :P 20:05:36 elliott: If I use int, then it's endianness-specific. 20:05:53 Endianness will always be an issue unless you use char, end of story :P 20:06:02 I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT 20:06:12 I SHALL INTRODUCE A SEGMENT REGISTER 20:06:14 You could try BCT. 20:06:32 Hard to imagine I could get a cyclic tag system in little C >_> 20:06:32 Or some other CT. 20:06:39 Gregor: Why not? 20:06:44 Because it's fucking C :P 20:06:50 And? 20:06:59 I mean, it's worth a try. 20:07:18 Fair enough. 20:07:53 Gregor: And self-BCT is "maybe" TC. 20:08:12 what's self-bct 20:08:20 BCT where data string = program string. 20:08:34 k's 20:10:37 http://i.imgur.com/tQoZq.jpg 20:13:07 i don't get it 20:14:20 Ikuisesti! 20:15:18 I think C is the most platform-dependent platform-independent language I know of. 20:16:38 I think that honor goes to ... a.out :P 20:16:46 (TOTALLY A LANGUAGE) 20:17:31 Does a.out contain machine code? 20:17:43 Yes. 20:18:04 Yes, but the "language" a.out doesn't specify the machine code, a.out itself is platform-independent. 20:18:24 You can load an x86 a.out file on ARM, and it'll load ... it just won't run. 20:18:40 it just *might* not run 20:18:45 True! 20:18:59 you could conceivably write arm/x86 polyglots 20:19:02 But that's the point, it's not up to the a.out language to know or care. 20:19:25 Although a.out isn't an a.out file and hasn't been for ages 20:19:33 Thanks, idiots who write compilers! 20:19:37 I'm not talking about the output of cc, I'm talking about a.out. 20:19:58 What about ELF? 20:20:02 ELF is more portable than a.out these days :P 20:20:13 Yeah, but a.out requires a fuckload less thought :) 20:20:23 elliott, ELF is what is *used*. 20:20:31 *Even if the file is called a.out.* 20:20:32 ELF has headers that specify the architecture, not portable at all 20:20:43 Phantom_Hoover: OMG WE KNOW THAT YOU'RE NOT TELLING US ANYTHING SHUT UP 20:21:06 what Gregor said 20:23:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:25:04 I didn't read what phantom_hoover said but I agree with gregor 20:32:03 elliott: I just realized that even ignoring the endianness issue, changing to int breaks everything because gets() will only read 'til a NULL, so every pointer would need to be to at least 0x01010101 >_> 20:32:11 Gregor: Awesome :P 20:32:45 Errr ... and so would all jump offsets <_< 20:33:06 Straightline code is at zero. Data and other code is at 16MB. Final output ... is at 0 again. 20:33:42 My ability to use number names and numbers consistently is at ze0. 20:36:23 i think i need some radio silence 20:36:26 maybe see you some day 20:36:29 bye 20:36:33 -!- oklofok has quit. 20:37:27 radio silence? I guess the russians are invading again 20:37:43 god forbid they get their hands on our esoterica 20:37:46 Damn pinko commies. 20:38:09 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are now taking up collections for the "elliott needs a sense of fnarf" fund | GOD BLESS CAPITALISM | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 21:04:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:04:29 Gregor, what's fnarf? 21:04:29 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:05:16 Apr 19 23:27:52 Yahweasel: OK, I've figured out the problem. 21:05:16 Apr 19 23:28:07 Yahweasel: Your definition of "taste" is one that involves not having a nose. 21:05:16 Apr 19 23:28:14 Therefore it is utterly unrelated to the sense known as "taste". 21:06:02 Apr 19 23:28:18 I propose you use the word "fnarf" instead. 21:08:44 -!- augur has joined. 21:09:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:15:59 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:29:35 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 21:30:05 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:30:07 -!- azaq23 has quit (Changing host). 21:30:07 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:30:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:31:34 -!- elliott has joined. 21:31:41 ais523: how can your become-inactive promise actually be used? 21:32:14 elliott: if you get me to transfer it to you, you can cash it and I become inactive 21:32:35 in order to get me to transfer it to you, you'd need to give me something of approximately equal or greater value in return 21:32:35 ais523: hmm, is there no Promise infrastructure for pledging to transfer them somehow? 21:32:41 like, promising to transfer a promise :-D 21:32:56 also, can't you immediately become active again? 21:33:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:36:16 elliott: I can 21:36:34 but I'm not imposing a period of time on anyone else's version either 21:36:56 -!- crystal-cola has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:36:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:37:04 the ability to inactivate someone so that they miss a key deadline (via timing scam) is incredibly useful, though 21:37:11 which is why I collect them whenever such a rule exists 21:37:59 * tswett nods. 21:38:03 ais523: hmm, is there no Promise infrastructure for pledging to transfer them somehow? 21:38:17 elliott: no there isn't 21:38:24 ais523: anyway, I'll trade it to you for a Promise that I cash in your Promise 21:38:27 there's meant to be an element of trust involved here 21:38:38 ais523: you can't just make a Promise to do it? 21:38:40 that way, you can cash the promise I give you immediately, and become inactive immediately 21:38:41 elliott: err, that's a little indirect 21:38:43 then become immediately active again 21:38:54 ais523: yep, but it puts the power into your hands 21:38:56 to stop me hogging it 21:39:01 oh, umm, I'm confused now 21:39:35 ais523: I'll Promise "I cash in ais523's Promise about going inactive, unless I do not have that Promise.", transfer that to you, and you can transfer the Promise in question to me 21:39:36 it's also buggy, as if I hung onto the original promise, I could just destroy it, leaving my message with no referent when you tried to cash the indirect promise 21:39:42 then, you can cash in on that promise to become inactive 21:39:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:40:02 oh, but I don't gain anything from that, right? 21:40:08 all I get is the ability to indirectly make myself inactive 21:40:18 and why would I want that, when I can directly make myself inactive instead? 21:40:21 ais523: well, you get the satisfaction of confusing everything 21:40:24 erm 21:40:26 ais523: well, you get the satisfaction of confusing everybody slightly 21:40:36 meh, I doubt I'll take up that offer 21:40:39 ais523: What I'm trying to do is make the transfer one of very small values like that 21:40:59 ais523: because I don't really have anything worth enough to get your actual Promise 21:41:08 elliott: I'd just want you to make a similar promise yourself 21:41:18 so then, you can make me inactive, and I can make you inactive 21:41:20 ais523: I don't want to do that; that's boring 21:41:39 Well, I might, but only if you really decide that confusing everyone isn't a good way to start the economy. 21:41:44 Which would be a lame thing to decide. 21:43:13 ais523: { I create a Promise "I cash in ais523's Promise to go inactive", with the condition {I, ehird, currently possess ais523's Promise to go inactive}, and transfer it to ais523. } 21:43:15 that's what I'd send 21:43:28 elliott: but this is completely useless to me 21:43:41 as this ends up with: you can make me go inactive; I can make me go inactive 21:43:45 and I have no advantages at all 21:43:48 see the issue? 21:44:13 it's like saying "could you give me £10, and in return I'll give you your £10 back if you ask for it and I haven't spent it yet" 21:44:19 in what way does that benefit me? 21:45:40 ais523: second 21:46:16 ais523: it doesn't benefit you in raw, hard currency at all. Note that I expect you to cash it immediately, thus removing my ability to make you go inactive. 21:46:30 yes, but then nothing's happened, altogether 21:46:34 so there's still no benefit 21:46:35 ais523: The actual benefit is in the metagame, i.e. being vaguely confusing. 21:46:41 no, it isn't 21:46:43 ais523: By your logic, winning has no benefit. 21:46:59 yes it does, because contribution towards a win is how I measure benefit in Agora 21:47:18 ais523: you've never performed an action in Agora just because it was amusing? 21:47:27 I mostly do that in B 21:47:30 but I think that action is anti-amusing 21:47:32 and a lot of work 21:47:52 admittedly, my latest action is mostly amusement because win-by-paradox was repealed 21:48:09 but I consider Agora's win conditions to mostly be well-crafted and interesting things to aim for 21:48:16 and that holds true even after they've been repealed 21:48:33 ais523: anti-amusing? how? 21:48:41 because it's boring and random for no benefit 21:49:21 also, there's a potential rules bug which makes me want to avoid becoming inactive even for a few seconds for no reason 21:49:24 can Promises have lasting effects? 21:50:40 they're messages 21:50:48 can a message have lasting effects? 21:51:18 hmm, maybe 21:51:41 ais523: what's a simple but illegal action? 21:51:54 I'm not sure, in the current ruleset 21:51:56 ah, intend to ratify something false 21:52:02 A player SHALL NOT knowingly use or announce intent to use 21:52:02 Ratification Without Objection to ratify a (prior to 21:52:02 ratification) incorrect document when a corrected document could 21:52:02 be produced with reasonable effort, unless the general nature of 21:52:03 hmm, er 21:52:07 never mind, that's not as clear 21:52:13 anyway, this is the wrong channel, and I don't really have much interest in continuing the conversation 21:52:20 I don't think 21:54:28 ais523: just transferred you a Promise 21:54:46 gah, I forgot to specify a scope 21:55:43 that's, umm, quite a promise 21:56:01 I'm trying to create a Promise insanely valuable, but so personally harmful that you'll never cash it. 21:56:09 Or transfer it to someone likely to cash it. 21:56:21 I suppose it's only insanely valuable to someone who really hates me. 21:56:32 Unfortunately the intent is wrong because it doesn't specify a scope. 21:56:39 I could transfer it to someone who hates you, and they couldn't cash it anyway 21:56:49 unless I gave you my inactivity promise 21:57:11 or I could destroy it to save the recordkeepors some issue 21:57:14 ais523: I was assuming that it was valuable enough for that to be a given. 21:57:25 ais523: Given that it can be used to accomplish the same as me becoming inactive, just more destructively. 21:57:34 otoh, I could use it myself, in that deregistering you has a stronger effect that inactivating you has 21:57:55 Precisely, but I feel you're too Lawful Good to do that, because of the criminal cases that would result from the ratification intents. 21:58:17 yes, but it's you who's doing the illegal actions, not me 21:58:35 Yes, but I think you're too kind to make me do that. 21:58:44 indeed 21:58:55 the illegal actions in question are also buggy, incidentally, and probably not illegal at all 21:59:01 I just said that. 22:00:06 indeed 22:00:16 but I was pointing out that your promise is pretty much a straight deregistration 22:00:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:01:21 also, the condition is buggy; I can trade you my promise just before cashing yours 22:01:24 ais523: yes, but only by accident 22:01:28 then as you're deregistered, it goes to the L&FD 22:01:29 also, indeed 22:01:34 I expect nothing less 22:01:37 so it's not a trade at all 22:02:47 * oerjan deposits 5 quatloos in the fnarf fund 22:07:12 I need the symbol NIL to make NIL, so I need to intern it, but the interning code relies on NIL :P 22:07:17 yo 22:07:19 I N Z E P T I O N 22:07:21 lol 22:20:56 -!- Mannerisky has joined. 22:49:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:52:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:04:54 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:13:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:22:22 -!- elliott has joined. 23:28:28 -!- Fuco has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:41:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:52:08 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:57:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).